Sometimes we can find ourselves in the position of knowing about what someone has done and not having the energy to get into some big ‘ole thing about it. It’s not because we’re letting it slide or that we’re too afraid to deal with it; it’s more that due to what we now know, we realise that if we go down the path of trying to ‘make’ this person see our position, to express remorse, to acknowledge what they’ve done and what was so wrong about it, we’re probably going to go blue in the face from trying to make sense out of nonsense and getting caught up in he said she said mind effery. It might even get switched around so that the real issue is forgotten and in the end, who has time, energy, and emotions for this BS?
Exactly how much do we really need to explain to somebody who already knows what they’ve done, about what it is that we know about.
It’s like, “Um, you know what you said/did – you just don’t know that I know and you’re afraid to say, ’So you know about [the thing] huh?’ because that might not be the thing that you think that I might know about. You’re gonna keep texting me with BS like, ‘What’s wrong? I don’t understand why we haven’t been hanging out as much – did I do something?’, so that I end up doing your dirty work for you and bringing your deeds out into the open and you only have to own up to whatever I bring up. Hell, you may even have enough time to figure out the perfect excuse / story / alibi or maybe you’ll just switch it around on me and make up some BS story about me or attack the fact that I have ‘accused’ you of something.”
And here’s the thing: When you’re in a situation where you realise that you cannot trust somebody and it might even be one in a long line of things, you’re not not saying anything because you’re trying to ‘make’ them fess up – you’re just done. You know where the land lies, there will be no big showdown or fallout, there will be no big long-ass discussion or justifying or whatever because you decide that you just don’t want to be caught up in their drama.
Compare scenarios:
Scenario A: You know them for a year and during that time, they have done various things (with you and others) to demonstrate that they cannot be trusted nor are they loyal.
Scenario B: Also known them for a year and both in their relationship with you as well as with others, they’ve been consistent, truthful, and loyal but you find out something or they do something that hurts you. It seems so out of character.
You would likely say something in Scenario B and it will cost you more to pursue them about it than you will gain in Scenario A.
You’re not making the decision lightly – the evidence may be too strong. For instance, if you’ve heard back something you said or they’ve been playing you off somebody and now you both know about it, or you’ve basically uncovered the deception, if you’ve reached the end of the line, anything else is just looking for a confession. Remember how at the end of episodes of shows like ‘Murder, She Wrote’, ‘Poirot’ and the various Miss Marple episodes, how they always had to have a big ta-da moment and basically tell them all about themselves until they confess?
Sometimes we want to get into a big ‘ole, “Well, I heard this and you did that and yada yada yada”, because in knowing what we wouldn’t do, we feel like somebody should point this person in the right direction. Our ego sometimes takes over. Maybe they’ll learn from our pain, we think. Maybe they just haven’t had the “right” person to show them the way. Maybe there’s this wonderful explanation that will allow me to go back to what I was thinking and imagining before I found out.
It’s not our job to be someone’s moral beard. Why are we trying to raise a person from the ground up?
If you’ve ever been in this situation, the fact that there’s this pretense about not knowing what the issue is can be quite baffling.
As humans, we know when we’ve been chatting about somebody behind their back. We know when we’ve screwed them over. We know when we’ve betrayed their trust. We know when we have been less than true. But some of us do have a pesky habit of coming up with our own convoluted framework of truth and honesty and so it’s a case of, I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it, or If I haven’t admitted to it or they haven’t explicitly stated it then as far as I’m concerned, it hasn’t happened. Many of these same people are very good at compartmentalising, “I did not have sexual relations with that woman”, as well as drip-feeding, “We just exchanged some messages….. OK yeah there was that one kiss but nothing else happened…. OK, we dryhumped… OK, we played but we didn’t go all the way… OK, we had sex… 20 times..”
There are, of course, situations where someone we love and trust does something and we have to deal with that. That’s different though because if the feeling is mutual and they’ve done something in the moment that isn’t reflective of their general character or your relationship, they’ll be wanting to sort this out of their own volition. They won’t be deceiving you and or looking to continue with what they’re doing until they’re definitely found out.
You can end up defining ’the problem’ as you know it (when they don’t volunteer the info) and then they may feel that they only have to discuss what you know, or their efforts focus on picking apart and chopping at your ‘definition’ of what took place. So you say, “I know that you have been saying [very insulting comments] behind my back”, and rather than address that, they have the brass neck to come back with, “Well, first of all, how dare you say that I insulted you…. Well, yes I did say it but I meant it in a less insulting way and I’m offended that you think I meant it in a more insulting way. We’re clearly not friends. GOODBYE!”, and you’re thinking, Um, what the frick just happened there?
Don’t try to make sense out of nonsense and always remember that some people just don’t know how to own up to stuff. That’s not about you.
When you find out that you’ve been betrayed, if you’re going to continue engaging, you can’t do the whole, “You know what you did last summer…”, attitude because then it’s just battle of the passive aggressives. You’re just smokin’ ‘em out and trying not to ‘give in’ first.
If it’s a deal breaker, you’re under no obligation to get into a big discussion or in fact any discussion about it. You know what you know and you adjust your boundaries to reflect the new info. You know not to fork over the same level of trust. You’re no longer unaware of how they roll.
They might still push to know what you know though – keep it light and just stress that you don’t want to get into a discussion about it. When I experienced this situation a couple of years back and she kept pushing, I just said something along the lines of, “Honestly, I’m fine. Things were pretty awkward after [the incident] and when I heard [one line example of what was said], I just felt it best to step back. Anyway, no doubt I’ll see you about. Bye”, and move along.
It’s easy to fall into the trap of assuming that the discovery of who someone truly is is a ‘bad’ thing but actually, it’s a blessing because we get put back on a level playing field in the sense that as long as we were cloaked in some level of illusions about that person, we ran the risk of getting hurt due to these. People unfold.
Your thoughts?
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[So you say, “I know that you have been saying [very insulting comments] behind my back”, and rather than address that, they have the brass neck to come back with, “Well, first of all, how dare you say that I insulted you…. Well, yes I did say it but I meant it in a less insulting way and I’m offended that you think I meant it in a more insulting way. We’re clearly not friends. GOODBYE!”, and you’re thinking, Um, what the frick just happened there? ]
Don’t I know darling. A ‘friend’ collegue of mine mounted up a case of my offending her by having the audacity to ask her ‘Why are you are you flirting with the guy I’m dating, in the office, right in front of my eyes?’.
Ended very badly. Even boss involved at some point. I have resigned from that place but had to see her tonight because of some semi-mutual friend celebration. I feel like dying, I hate her so much, God only knows how I manage to control myself and not smash her entitled, snobbish, arrogant face on the table. I am eating up myself in rage. so help me god … so help me god. V.
V. I’m sorry you are in so much pain. I’m thinking of you and sending you prayers. Veracity
Thank you Veracity. That must have worked – *smile*, V.
🙂 I’m glad.
What an awful thing for them to do (sounds like they were both culpable). It must have been very hard to go to that event last night if you knew she was going to be there. Veracity
Oh hello Veracity, I read you now. Thanks. You know I wasn’t prepared for the event to be hard because we both hadn’t spoken to or seen each other for a long time, and I thought that was that. What caught me off guard, is that in the few moments where we were physically close (there was a large party group), she still acted disdainfully and carried on playing the wronged party. How she does this, is beyond me. If I were in that position, I would be so ashamed of myself I couldn’t walk straight. Cheers, V.
Hi V. Oh man, That would be hard to because it likely caught you mentally off guard. So she’s sticking to the ‘ole blame the victim routine, eh? Too bad, but not a shock. This type of person (sounds like she lacks empathy) seems to rely heavily on this defense. I’m with you, I’d be very ashamed of myself if I acted that way. Good riddance! Take care, Veracity
Hey V,
This is the thing: she won’t change. Anyone crappy enough to flirt with your bf in front if you is insecure. Period.
But you are really upset. So now you have to ask yourself the hard question: why are you so upset? Do you trust your partner?
Hello Dancing Queen. Thanks for taking the time to answer to my desperate plea, I was feeling so bad yesterday I could have smashed my own head on the wall instead.
No partner. I stopped seeing him after that. He would not encourage her but he wouldn’t do anything to stop her either, even after I literally begged him to stop engaging with her at all to help me not explode in a hysterical fight in the office.
It’s about her really. I can’t believe she would sell me for that little bit of attention, in a moment when I was so vulnerable as I have never been in my adult life – I was having enormous family problems which she knew about. I don’t know what else to say. V.
V,
Good call in dumping him. Yes it is very upsetting when other women sell other women out, for bits of attention. Chin up! You are NOT that kind of woman, so hold you head high, walk away, and focus on your goals:)
Thank you Dancingqueen. No I’m not, good point that I hadn’t thought of. ThankG. that boundary is in place! Good luck with your goals to you too. V.
V,
I don’t mean any offense, but it is your boyfriends responsibility to shut that down. I think that you are mad at the wrong person! Know if your boyfriend told her to stop and she kept doing it then that is different, but if he did nothing then he is the one at fault. Sorry!
“Don’t try to make sense out of nonsense.” That has to be one of the best sayings ever and when it comes to dealing with certain people, is law.
I love the simple message in this post and am still amazed at how many people continue to explain away; as if they owe it to someone. Those in the know of exactly what they’ve done are the worst, because they try their hardest to act as if they haven’t a clue.
I’m a very literal person and believe in communicating, even if it isn’t what you want to hear. That way there isn’t anyone I deal with who can say “I don’t know why” or “I don’t understand”.
Again, great post!
I engaged in this kind of conversation recently with an ex that I work with. He is married and I’m ashamed to say, we had an affair for about 4months. I wish it was me who had broken things off, but it was him. Since he ended things he walks about the office like nothing is wrong. When I first gave him the cold shoulder after all that had happened and how he had treated me, he acted so surprised and was full of questions. It’s like he can’t believe that someone could actually be mad at him! Why can’t he just fess up and say I know I treated you badly and I’m sorry for that? Instead it’s like he’s a prince and I am a heartbroken girl who just wishes he would come back. I thinks that’s how he likes it and I suppose in some ways thats because it’s true and because he was the one who ended things. I don’t know what’s wrong with me, but I wish I could get to a place where I didn’t care about him. It eats away at my self-esteem to see him around and that he knows I’m still in love with him. I feel so terrible and he just gets to carry on feeling like gods gift to the office and the world. So hard to carry on like this 🙁
Trish,
Yuk, I know this type. Somehow they think that because they ended the affair they get to strut about thinking they are the best husband and father in the world. You can tell that its not that they have acknowledged their actions, felt remorse, and then forgiven themselves and tried to move forward in a positive, moral way. Its all been some big power trip, “yeah, I’ve still got it, I can get the girl”, and then once they’ve cast you off all they do is feed off their inflated egos until they need another hit from someone else.
I had a friend who had an affair with a MM, and then a year or so after it ended was doing some internet snooping and found his tag line for himself on Twitter said “husband, father and all round happy family man”. Unbelievable.
Please go NC with this guy, he is scum. You don’t need him to ‘fess up and he won’t. Don’t give him an insight into how you’re feeling, don’t give him a window to your heart and soul, he doesn’t deserve it.
Oh yes. The desire for a really satisfying session of ‘monologuing’ from the ‘villain’, and then your lecture putting them straight, so that it all gets sorted out, Once and For All. Something like this scene in The Princess Bride – a duel to the pain.
If only life were like the movies.
Again, I come back to some good advice I’ve been given in the past:
1) ‘Let it go. You will NEVER get to the bottom of some things.’
2) ‘Don’t ask people why they did something, because chances are, they won’t even be able to tell you why.’
Both these pieces of advice have been priceless to me, especially the second one, because I’ve found it to be true of myself, in my own life.
* You ask me why I did a particular thing, recently, and I’ll tell you a whole string of Perfectly Good and Rational Reasons why I did X.
* And a few weeks later, I’ll give you another set of Perfectly Good and Rational Reasons why I did it.
* And a few years later, I’ll just laugh and say, ‘I was being an idiot that day; gosh, I’m glad I’m not so stupid now’.
And what if, after all the hashing things out, the villain turns out to be you? I know on BR we hear from a lot of women who have taken on too much blame for things they didn’t do or people they weren’t able to be, and I think that’s what we do to ourselves as women.
But not all of us. Some of us have the capacity to engage in repeat, really bad behaviours, especially women with strong characters like mine. I used to get OUTRAGED because someone rejected me, failing to realise that it was because I was too strident, nagging, unstable and obsessive. My rage came in some cases simply from wounded vanity, not from any really assclown behaviour on a man’s part.
It took me years to address those issues, and to find out why I was the way I was, and to change myself. I am still a work in progress. But at least I’ve grown enough sense to stop dating! There are enough casualties out there already!
Yes Ethelreda I was wondering about that very same thing a moment ago – what if we have learned to copy the negative behaviour from them without fully realising it???? My mother is a Narcissist and I was going through a recent game of communication tennis with her – in a bad way – and decided to stop and walk away from it – when I came across a list of stuff Mum Narcissist’s do to their kids and really connected with it!!! felt better immediately because I was reminded why I feel so bad around her and why I LEGITIMATELY do not want contact with her – and then started to realise to my horror – I DO SOME OF THOSE THINGS TOO!!!!! Horror!!! I’ve picked them up also! Not all of them but definitely one or two. At least we are aware of them I suppose and hopefully do something about them?
I think my failing is I allow other peoples dramas to affect me too much and I just need to accept what it is and walk away from them and leave them to their own problems – while I keep the focus on mine.
Scoring points is such a pointless business in reality and a complete waste of my time.
Ethelreda, love your comment! So true. This is what some therapists do – push you to go beyond the justification of why you did sth. But a person should be willing to find out the real why. In this time of communication (described above) the other person is not willing to know why. They think you’re the problem. You’re bothering them with all your questions.
I also think that NML talks about a situation when it’s not just about us asking ‘why oh why did you do this thing that hurt me terribly?”. I think the post talks about a situation when you come to the table wanting a dialogue and at the end of this dialogue there should be a consensus on how to proceed. We bring an issue up, that something hurt us, and we ask them not to do this or to come up with a solution on how this pain can be avoided in the future. This often demands work and compromise on both sides. Our job is not to just bring issues up, but be willing to listen and to work on the solution as an EQUAL. But the problem I faced in that type of communication, that NML describes in the post, is that the other person is not willing to go into a dialogue. You don’t work TOGETHER. Your goals are different. And in relationships it happens that your goal might be to strengthen the relationship by addressing the discomfort you’re experiencing meanwhile they are interested only in justifying their actions (mostly to themselves). They perceive you as an attacker. While at the same time, the distribution of power screams INEQUALITY – whoever holds the most information (him) holds the most power (over you).
Just my two cents.
Thank you again for those points. I so needed to be reminded of them today.
This is so on point! I have had TWO people — both who talked behind my back, and I found out about it — try to justify their nutsoid behavior by saying (and BOTH people actually said this….)….”Well, I thought you wouldn’t find out.”
Really. Wow.
So that’s how low their ethical standards are; in their twisted little minds, as long as I don’t find out, their deceit is perfectly ok with them. Until I find out, that is. In both cases, there was no reason to continue the discussion; I was done. And they knew it.
The commonality between these two people, who don’t even know one another? Both malignant narcissists.
Yep just working out there are a few of them around – still finding it quite shocking that not only my mother but other people can be Narcissists also but I guess I have been attracting them up until now?
Yes, Oona — kinda shocked me to realize after a lot of reading, that my mother was a narc. And my sister was one of the two people who said “Oh, I didn’t think you’d find out” (that she slammed me behind my back); also a narc. Amazing where they pop up!
After giving this guy a second chance at a relationship, it has ended again with the same issues coming up, wrapped in a different bow.
He is an expert on gaslighting and I liked what you wrote about ‘some people just don’t know how to own up about stuff’.
Initiating the NC rule but I will have to see him around. I have thought about treating him with disdain but that will just hurt me. I will treat him with respect and with firm boundaries. I can say hello and goodbye without letting him in. He wants to be friends however I feel he has lost that privilege. As you have said in previous posts, why would I want to be friends with someone who treats me badly? I don’t and none of my true friends do.
Thank you for today’s post and yesterday’s on forgiveness. I forgive him for being perhaps spiritually sick and I forgive myself for letting a person in who did not treat me well.
Bianca,
You don’t have to respect him because that is earned. But you can treat him with indifference because he is not worth getting yourself worked up. It’s okay to ignore him and have disdain because this is what happens when a person has not earned the right to anything else.
Bianca, I agree with the previous poster. He has earned your disdain and you don’t have to play “nicey,nicey”. You would not be true to yourself by playing games. You have a right to your feelings after someone hurts you. Treat him with indifference. DO NOT look for opportunities to address him first. If he doesn’t see you, just go about your business. Remain strong and avoid contact.
Well, goodness. You’ve done it again. Wonderful post. I was seeing an assclown for a while, and after couple of months, it became clear that he was not going to treat me with respect. I broke things off after many conversations, and appeals to his sense of decency and loyalty and friendship, and a lot of explanations about why I was feeling the way I was feeling. None of that made the slightest bit of difference. After several months of no contact I let him back into my life. And the cycle began again. The second time though, it became obvious to me that he was cheating on me. I confronted him with the evidence, but he did the classic drip feed thing and denied everything. I decided that I needed to end the relationship, and I was pretty clear with myself that I had done all the talking and explaining and appeal-making that I was going to do. I had given him as many chances as I was going to give him. I was done. And when I’m done, I stop talking. I do not expend the energy anymore. I had given him many many chances. But little by little his true character became obvious to me, and I could no longer dismiss or rationalize his behavior. I also know that I was in way too deep, and needed time and space to get free from his manipulative clutches. The thing about Assclowns is, they know that the more they keep you talking, the weaker you are. The more energy you expend explaining why their behavior is unacceptable, or trying to prove that you’ve caught them red-handed, or whatever it is you’re still discussing with them, the more susceptible you are to their lies and manipulation. They know if you’re still expending energy, you’re still plugged in emotionally.
I was way too emotionally involved with this ass clown. I admit that. And I knew that if I tried to take a bitchy, rigid stance, it would just make me feel out of control and less than.
So here’s what I did: I told him that I was in love with him and that I had lost my sense of self. I told him that I was going to need space and time away from him to reorder my priorities. I told him that I was responsible for my own well-being and self-respect, and that I had put myself in a one-down position and then I was no longer going to do that. He is a classic ass clown in that he does not respect my boundaries. I knew he would continue to make contact even though I told him I needed time and space away from him to get my head straight. So I simply told him that I fully expected that he would contact me even though I had asked him not to, and that every time he contacted me and I did not respond, that I was wishing him well and working on myself and loving him as a friend and missing him. I really laid it on thick and Used his considerable ego against him. He did end up doing exactly what I thought he would in terms of completely ignoring my boundaries and contacting me, but because I had built in and implicit ego stroke every time I did not respond, I didn’t worry about not responding anymore. I’m not sure if I making any sense but it worked like magic for me. I had no anxiety about not responding to his messages and it gave me the time and space I needed to get over that very toxic influence he had in my life. It also strokes his ego enough to where I don’t think he will try to trash my reputation in the community. I am guessing he still thinks I’m an option. And that’s okay with me. I have all the power in this situation as long as I do not make contact with him. He has no idea what I truly feel or what I’m capable of. He thinks I’m still in love with him. He does not know how dangerous that mistaken notion truly is or what I really feel for him: cold steely contempt.
Spanish Jackie,
Great insight! But the thing I wouldn’t done was tell him I was in love him even if your were! He was going to assume that anyway, but the best you can do is based on your actions he will see that you are not as in love with him as he thinks. You seem like your on the right track and putting yourself first! Good Luck!!
outstanding. your actions and what-you-think-he-thinks are 100% correct. well done!
@SpanishJackie-
“So I simply told him that I fully expected that he would contact me even though I had asked him not to, and that every time he contacted me and I did not respond, that I was wishing him well and working on myself and loving him as a friend and missing him. I really laid it on thick and Used his considerable ego against him.”
Haha ok well you know yourself and the situation best, and if this is what you had to do to keep from getting sucked back in, and to keep him from destroying your reputation, then more power to you.
A downside of this approach, though, is that it doesn’t allow the EUM/AC to feel the “natural consequences” of his actions. It’s not our job to fix/help/heal, but if enough women stopped putting up with the untenable, at least some of these guys would have to “hit a bottom” and begin to address their own issues, the way that we have had to hit one ourselves. Plus, personally, I find it empowering to make a clear rejection of the guy, after experiencing so much rejection from him.
@snowboard
From my experience, EUM/AC’s do not have the capacity to feel natural consequences of their awful behavior. I like to think they are just not as evolved as the rest of us, lol.
Spanish Jackie, brilliant. I am with you 100%. Stroke their ego while letting them go. It’s not you, it’s me. You’re great, I just need something else. We want different things. The day I dumped AC, I kissed him on the cheek as he left. Like the Godfather.
My ego has no need to tell him what an AC he is. I just want OUT, as peacefully as possible.
I don’t think telling a man that you love him and will wish him well is wise when you are ending the relationship. If you do feel that way, you’re putting yourself into quicksand and he will interpret that if he tweaks his behaviour and attitude that he can till have a chance with you? Perhaps that is what you really want? Do some soul-searching and know what you really want. If it’s over why should you feel the need to make the confession of still loving him and pump up the drama and his ego?
she is love-bombing him the same way that he love-bombed her, using his weapons.
he doesn’t see it, as vampires don’t see their own reflections.
(likely) he will become obsessed with her. even more so than she was enamored with him.
see, she saw what was ugly and got OUT. and healed.
he never saw anything ugly.
and he can’t get the relationship back, or fixed; much less get the clean slate or new beginning back.
meanwhile, he knows that she loved him. she didn’t lie–she DID love him. he knows this! he made it so that this would happen. she is not being insincere.
so, meanwhile, he is owning up to his actions. he is being made responsible for his behavior and its consequences with every instance that he makes contact with her.
i did the same.
his friends will be obsessed with her, and try to make contact with her, too.
Used, That is so interesting. I’m still trying to fully wrap my mind around it, but it’s an interesting approach! What’s giving me pause is how he is owning up to his actions and being made responsible for his actions and its consequences with every contact.
Is it that he will not get a response but will keep trying because he believes she loves him? Veracity
yes. subject to:
if he does not know that he is being held responsible when he actually makes the call/contact, he will realize it soon thereafter. or, at the latest, when he next sees her.
when she last spoke to him, she stuck to the facts (what he did and what she did) and to what she felt about the facts. she didn’t get into how he felt.
no one can argue with facts and with how one feels about facts. no one.
now the fact remains that she feels nothing but contempt for him (a feeling that he knows nothing of) (he actually thinks that she still loves him and is an option–ha!) and he can’t (and never will) get a hold of her (meanwhile he thinks she’ll break down and talk to him–NOT!–see, he thinks that she will because she HAS broken down before) (he THINKS he has power–but she has ALL of the power–now).
when he calls–and definitely when he next sees her physically–he will be reminded of what he did and HATE HIMSELF FOR IT.
THAT is how he will be held responsible for his actions, my friends.
notice how she says that he doesn’t know what she is “capable of.” i like it.
she could be a true femme fatale now (destroy him) and he won’t have a clue.
spanish, you know this–i’m so impressed!
Used, yes I can see this. She has owned her own, only her own and not his. So where is his? Floating around in the ether? No it is with him and he can not get through to her in reality and fob off his AC behaviour as her responsibility. The huge ego stroke he got with the explanation she gave him and the mini ones he gets each time he texts/calls will not be enough eventually. But if he is a very self absorbed, ego driven, narcy AC (a truly toxic a*hole) then he will deal with this by moving his focus to other ‘sources’. If a recognition of his own responsibility does ever surface I don’t see why he (being who he is) wouldn’t immediately deny and repress that through some complicated self mind effery. This works for people incapable of mutuality, they live in fantasy of their own omnipotence and will live off the stories they create for justifying their own behaviour.
The point to me is that Spanish Jackie has exited this dynamic successfully and is moving on with her life without him in it.
agreed & exactly right.
though the ac i once knew looks at me as though he hates my guts every time he sees me now. because i kept it all in reality. in the actual facts.
I remember exchanging comments with you a few posts back about this guy. He projects his hatred outwards but there’s no need for you to take it in. Hope you are getting by and keeping from ruminating about this guy.
Used, but you could have a point that he may come to feel hate for himself at certain times but if that is how he will be held responsible then it will be in fleeting moments only. Because again, in AC toxic style his self hatred will be intolerable and rather than acknowledge his wrong doing and work towards ‘change’, he will project the feeling away from himself (and with it the chance to feel responsible).
the (one and only) ac i knew actually married his on-again, off-again fbg. (very rocky relationship. but she would always call the relationship off when she felt she had to. she made demands of him. but he STILL saw her only every few weeks. she had to put up with that. ????) he had empathy for her most of all. i get spanish’s desire to not be talked about in the community–i had the same issue–and he KNOWS that he was an ac (to his now-wife, to me, to anyone he dated)–and he doesn’t want to look like the bad guy in the community (ethnically and socially) that we belong to.
this factor (the community/social) plays a part in what spanish and i did. also, his (small sense of) empathy.
i agree with you as to the grade-a assclowns. especially because many of them do operate under “out-of-sight, out-of-mind.” (mine actually contacted me through a friend once he had his ex back..but only after he saw me out at a party. otherwise, there would have been no contact. he dumped her when i told the friend that i did like him. so the empathy for her was limited. he wanted me to chase him and tell her, “see, she came after me. i did nothing wrong!” i laughed over all of this. never called him, of course.)
these people overall are very manipulative and control-driven, power-trip-driven, and selfish.
you and spanish are very articulate. you write well. you know yourselves. no one shoudl waster time, at all, on people like this. life is too short.
i come on here to keep me grounded, to remind me that people like this are out there, in all forms.
users are users are users!
I wish my mom knew to teach me that people unfold and to pay attention and to leave bad relationships from the start. Now I know, and I wasted about the past ten years. My bad. Now I am not heartbroken and not in a relationship. I’ve accepted that I rather be single and not used and abused by another man. If I date again, I will give the time-period for them to unfold and toss them out when and as soon as necessary. I’m busy living my own happy and good life. I’m a bit angry at how difficult it is to find a good relationship, and how there are so many liars and cheaters – well, I will not have them. I plan to get a dog and a cat when I retire and be content with little animal friends at my lap.
And this is really good: “Exactly how much do we really need to explain to somebody who already knows what they’ve done, about what it is that we know about”. Answer is, we need to explain nothing. Just kick them to the curb.
My problem is the complete opposite and I would love some opinions or advice.
I walked away from my boyfriend who completely and utterly embarrassed me with his betrayal of our 4 year very close relationship.
I think what hurts isn’t losing him but it may be my ego unsure what to make of it. Reading this maybe he actually realises what he did was wrong but can’t handle blame. Was I not worth him even chasing me requesting an explanation why I walked away? He’s a Leo if anyone believes in starsigns.
I dont want him back but I feel I was a good person to him and his entire family and guess I was expecting him to ring and at least say sorry (until reading this article) or at least ask why I walked away.
Any ideas what’s going through his mind? I need answers to move on. It’s been two years of constantly thinking of him.
Elizabeth, it’s possible that he’s aware of what he did and that there’s no way back so there’s no point in chasing you.
@Elizabeth
wow it’s been 2 years since you broke up and you have been constantly thinking of him since then?? That is just very unhealthy in my opinion. Dont get me wrong, I know that people require different amount of time to get over someone or forgive them but you should not waste this much time of your life on someone who betrayed and disrespected you. Why do you need his validation anyway?
Sometimes people who hurt us dont apologize to us (just read Natalie’s previous post), but we still need to forgive, forget and move on. For US. You need to move on for YOU. It doesnt matter why he did what he did or why he didnt chase you or apologize. See him for who he is not for what he was or could be…Sometimes in life things dont happen the way we want them to happen, people dont act the way we expect them to act and you know what? It just doesnt matter. You cant change it so just let it go. Trust the universe, God, or whatever you believe in that you were shown that he was not right for you and be grateful you found out about it, learn the lesson, grow and just continue living and enjoying your life.
You cant make people love you, apologize to you and chase you etc.. And like I said, it doesnt matter anyway. There is a Seneca quote that I really like, it is something like “the willing, destiny guides them, the unwilling, destiny drags them”. If you cant let him go, you just delay your own destiny, and you will be dragged.
Focus on moving on, be proud of yourself to be strong enough to have walked away with dignity and do not look back.
Elizabeth: I don’t believe in starsigns or astrology, but he has shown his colors as plain as day, so astrology isn’t needed for this guy. If he is an AC, he has nothing going through his mind that would cause him to run after you and try to get clarification, or to apologize; not in his limited repertoire, I am thinking. I am guessing that what goes on his mind is whatever benefits him at the moment.
Any ideas what’s going through his mind? I need answers to move on. It’s been two years of constantly thinking of him.
Elizabeth, let go. Breathe out. Exhale. Release.
He has gone. He has left your life, completely and utterly. For this, give THANKS and THANKS and THANKS that you were spared an awful divorce, sole parenthood, poverty and a life of unhappiness and having to explain to your kids that their dad didn’t love you enough to stick around.
Being harrassed by an ex is not a compliment, any more than being stalked or raped is a compliment. It’s not an indication of your personal self-worth!
I can assure you that your ex-boyfriend has not spent the last two years constantly thinking of you. So I would suggest that you return the complimen by stopping thinking about him at all.
Natalie’s recent post on forgiveness is very helpful. Forgiveness helps you let go of your place in the ‘story’ of how awful he was to you, and your security blanket of hurt feelings. Sometimes we hang on to our unhappiness because it becomes like a crutch or a way of avoiding present issues.
PS. How on earth have you had time in the last two years to think constantly about him? Girl, you need some distraction therapy URGENTLY! Or at least a demanding full-time job …
Elizabeth, star signs have nothing to do with it; the dude’s an asshole, plain and simple. He was either already emotionally out of your relationship or perhaps understood that there’s no defending his actions.
I haven’t written in ages- I lurk a lot though – but this struck a cord. Recently found out awful news that I suspected about a family member: my stepmother of 6 years has been embezzling from my 89 year old demented dad. She also tried to change his beneficiaries for two accounts from my brother and I, to herself. This is money that my dad needs for his care primarily and I was furious. It was almost 400k. And on top of it, she went in the hospital, and, in going to her house to get her some things it was found that I have been power of attorney for two years now: super furious!
But you know the thing is? I have dealt with so much crap in my life, that I sensed her years ago. This was a gift in some ways: it validated that I have super good instincts.
I have not confronted her. Right now I know, and my new lawyer knows. She has a fatal illness, it would cost more in lawyers fees to sue her than what she managed to steal, and most importantly, I am pretty much done. I said a couple of things, I know that she suspects that I know and that is all that matters at this point.
I won’t say anything, unless I have to. I know. I could give a crap if she will ever see the light.
It feels good when you get to the point in life when you realize that, as long as YOU know what’s real, it does not matter what others acknowledge.
Onwards and upwards ladies!
Dancingqueen,
I am so so saddened (and share your fury at the same time) by your recent discovery 🙁 The deception and non-care of your father by the stepmother over a span of years is incomprehensible plus purposely taking advantage of someone’s vulnerability is the absolute worst thing.
I would like to share a story re a woman who found out her husband had a whole new family on the side shortly before he died (the other wife actually attended the funeral). She was in two minds whether to confront him while on his death bed and decided against it in the end. After his passing she was furious that she didn’t say her peace and after some time had passed his ashes were still in the urn at home. Her adult children complained that their dad’s ashes should be out at sea (basically to forgive him and adhere to his wish of scattering ashes in the ocean as he loved the water) and she immediately did exactly that via the loo. “Eventually he will get there” was her response to the children.
Point of story is that sensitive confrontation is pending with the stepmother more in defence of your father who is not able to speak for himself (rather than waiting to say something if you have to). Something as serious as this should not go unspoken as regret plagued the wife above for the rest of her life. Situations will differ when you need to speak out and then be done (minus waiting for an explanation/to and fro battle of words) versus no need for further dialogue and simply be done.
Best of care now for your dad, and hopefully in time empathy for the stepmother will come your way more so for your own peace of mind and heart X
Dancingqueen, we ALL have a fatal illness. It’s called mortality. And we’re all gonna die sooner or later, from disease, or getting whacked by a bus. But that does not excuse her or give her a pass from taking responsibility for her appalling behavior. I do understand how you may not want to deal with her anymore, tho!
Thanks Nina and Gina: I agree, she deserves a bit of truth.
The thing is, that I have a feeling I will get that doorway: right now I know, and her kids know: we are all appalled. This knowledge let me off the hook from attending her 80th bday, and any other family related stuff with her. I basically told her kids that I am not able to be in the same room with her without making her feel so small, that her blood pressure will be affected.
She knows that I know. I told her very pointedly that if anyone ever messes with my dad financially or emotionally or physically that they will get a lawsuit and they will rue the day that they were born. She looked at me and immediately wheeled herself out of the room. She knows that I know.
I love my dad, and there is no way that she can continue this as her kids are now involved. Agree though with the wife in the above story: I won’t be attending any funeral for her lol.
Ohhhh I hope that she wants her ashes scattered at sea lol!
DQ, I’m sorry for what you’re going through. It put a chill through me. I can relate to it some ways. I’ve had 2 instances where I decided not to pursue legal action. 1 was an aunt who took some of my inheritance; another was a ruthless landlady. Both callously flouted written legal agreements, and in both cases, I felt too vulnerable and too busy trying to build up my own life to give them any more of my energy. I was glad to be done with them and fine knowing that they are both sour people who live joyless lives, sitting on top of their ill-gotten wealth, probably expecting a knock at the door at any time.
I’m not sure if my response was right, maybe I should have taken them on for the sake of justice and other potential victims, that seems to be the accepted wisdom. But I can live with it. I maybe wouldn’t be where I am today (which is a pretty good place) if I’d let myself get dragged down any more into their murky world. It looks like you don’t have to worry about other potential victims, the main concern is that whatever you do enables you to live your life in the best way possible. From those experiences, I think knowing that she knows you know can be enough, and that you can probably live with it. But then again, it’s a huge amount of money! It’s a terrible thing, you have my sympathy.
Thanks Oona and Happy B: yes sometimes it is best for ones sanity to walk away. I think the key is like we all noted: you don’t have to flog them with the evidence, but if they know that you know, it can help a ton.
She has little time left. Her own children dislike her so much that one even stated that she wished she would just die: she can have “her” money, it won’t do much for her. 🙂
Dancing queen – I am glad you ‘sensed her’ and gained tangible ‘validation’ for those senses – nasty – but it makes such a difference to help let it all go – there is no quibbling – you KNOW she is no good and you KNOW others KNOW also and that she KNOWS herself. You and your loved ones are protected, so now you don’t have to force yourself into uncomfortable reunions or force any issues with her. What a relief it must be! The war is over.
Thanks for the post Nat. This so timely for me because after several broken attempts at NC I really do have this strong “I’m done” feeling. It isn’t anger and indignation, and filled with power and energy. Its definitely a “I don’t have the energy for this” feeling, I just can’t be bothered trying to make sense of you, I’m too busy with myself. Its a very very constructive feeling and I’m loving it.
Colly, I read about how you went with the work call with exMM on the other thread. When you say ‘constructive’ feeling that strikes a cord with me. Maybe it’s the feeling that comes after a good/constructive sort of action. Esteeming yourself in action is very powerful,but in a real, steady way- it is a little bit of solidness, a bit of foundation maybe. No harming of yourself and others you care about and love. Enjoy the feeling. You earned it and it is all yours.
Lizzp,
Yes, steady, solid progress is what it is. Esteem through action is definitely what it is. I feel more grounded and centred than I have for literally years.
I had to have a call today with ex MM, there were lots of others on it thankfully. Part way through the call he sent me an IM telling me to look at my texts. The text said “How are you?” I didn’t open it so he couldn’t see I’d read it, and all I said back to him over IM was “Sorry my phone is upstairs charging” (I was working from home today). I just deleted the text and didn’t respond to it.
I feel good for this, I’m not jumping up and down happy, or feeling victorious for getting his attention, I’m just done, and I feel so much closer to me for it.
Thanks for your support
Colly, Im sorry I didnt reply earlier …I broke NC, but then ended it again in two days …he was cold and didnt even want to reply …and i think husband is about to find out cos of the gchat trail …its all abt to come crashing down …..and I deserve it
Rags Mom, Glad to hear from you. What happened in those two days? More importantly though, whats going on with you that made you break NC after all this time? What’s happening at home or with you that you are trying to avoid? Are you hoping the gchat trail gets discovered?
Whatever you know you have to go NC again and get back to doing something constructive for you.
What can you learn from this?
Hugs and support from here
Yep that’s when you know you are truly done. When telling them off just doesn’t even matter. No time.
“If it’s a deal breaker, you’re under no obligation to get into a big discussion or in fact any discussion about it. You know what you know and you adjust your boundaries to reflect the new info. You know not to fork over the same level of trust. You’re no longer unaware of how they roll.”
I am not unaware of how the ex rolls. I do not give him the same level of trust.
But it is me who wants to discuss what happened because I cannot reach a level of acceptance about what happened in order to forgive him and move on.
I want explanations and reasons about why he thought he could treat so badly. I want to know why he can move on so easily and without any thought to me.
I keep returning like a dog to its vomit and analyzing it all again and again.
I have sought psychological help and felt utterly frustrated with the process, I honestly don’t know what to do anymore.
Everything about this is eating away at me.
I have done no contact and my feelings grew into rage where I felt like I could cause him some serious damage.
I ended up contacting him and revealing my anger but I am being passive aggressive I know I am.
I come away from seeing him and feel terrible about myself.
I can’t find peace.
Of course because he is so narcissistic he has no understanding what so ever.
I have not yet run out energy to explain things to him. I am not satisfied he has heard me or understood me and I don’t know why it is so important to me to keep trying.
Incognito, “I want explanations and reasons about why he thought he could treat so badly. I want to know why he can move on so easily and without any thought to me… I have done no contact and my feelings grew into rage where I felt like I could cause him some serious damage.” When I read that, I wondered if someone treated you like that when you were younger. If so, maybe the rage is for that person instead.
“Don’t try to make sense out of nonsense and always remember that some people just don’t know how to own up to stuff. That’s not about you.”
I just recently walked away (literally) from an EU assclown whom was going through a divorce; still married when we met. I was kept secret, even after their divorce was aired. I quit my job for him. I sold my car for him. I drained my bank account being with him. His emotional unavailability concerning his not-so-ex-wife pushed me to the brink of packing up and leaving him without saying goodbye one day after a series of deal breakers … that he managed to justify and convince me were reflections of my own issues until I had had enough. I read this site constantly when I’m feeling weak and vulnerable, pissed and “worthless.”
I understand what you are saying and how it feels to need validation from him. But if he was not able to validate you emotionally during the relationship, he will not be able to do so now. He (probably) is not ignorant to how this affects you and uses it as a point of control; exacerbating issues (i.e. emotional abandonment, etc) that he knows will you keep you as an option (.. Nat touches on this). You are not an option. This man is completely undeserving of you if only in the aspect that you have to fight for him to see your worth (and so much more).
Incognito, you’ve nailed it; you have said that he’s so narcissistic he has no understanding whatsoever. That IS the fact. He won’t ever be able to grasp how he hurts people; that is his hell-on-earth to live with, the inability to be authentic with others. He won’t hear or understand you, and you may need to just keep trying over and over until you internalize that message that you know intellectually; he won’t ever get it. And when you internalize that message, you will stop. You deserve to move on and not stay on the Ferris wheel spinning around and around and around.
Incognito, I know that rage. You must, must, must get past it, or it will really destroy you and any chance you have of happiness.
Some of this might help, or not, I don’t know, but I’m putting it out there as some things that might break the obsessive pattern for you:
I want explanations and reasons about why he thought he could treat so badly.
So – why not seek the explanations and reasons within yourself why you let him treat you so badly?
I want to know why he can move on so easily and without any thought to me.
So – if he treated you badly, why not instead be grateful that he has moved on and no longer thinks of you? Someone who is not thinking of you is someone who cannot hurt you any longer.
I have done no contact and my feelings grew into rage where I felt like I could cause him some serious damage.
Is this rage, or is it actually a desire to control him – to MAKE HIM account for himself to you? If you strongly desire to control another person, and can’t, it will really drive you crazy.
It’s better to turn the control around and use it to control your own actions and responses to this man. He has a huge amount of influence over you still, and he is still dictating your thoughts and feelings. It would be good to break this by using that same strong will that you clearly show here.
I come away from seeing him and feel terrible about myself.
I can’t find peace.
Until you forgive him, unilaterally, you won’t find peace. The first step along this path is proper No Contact, maintained and worked at. The next step is finding other things to do, apart from think about him.
I have not yet run out energy to explain things to him. I am not satisfied he has heard me or understood me and I don’t know why it is so important to me to keep trying.
You call him a narcissist – and yet this is the kind of thing that a narcissist says! A narcissist demands this level of interest, attention and personal satisfaction, and of course they can never achieve it from mere mortals like the rest of us.
I’m not saying that your ex isn’t a narcissist, but you do have to be careful, because those sorts of behaviours are contagious.
Thank you for your reply Ethelreda.
I agree I keep shifting the focus from me to him.
It has become a habit I am working on to break.
I did stay there by choice he revealed himself over and over to me and still I stayed or went back after periods of time away.
So yes indeed why did I allow this to happen?
I believe it was a combination of rage and part of it was because I had no control over him. I would waste my breath saying what I needed from him and would act exactly how he wanted to as though he never heard a single word I said.
Another pattern I have worked hard on to break.
I still can feel that intense anger towards him but it never lasts as long.
I tell myself he showed you who he was very early on you ignored it and carried on with him why are you expecting anything different from him?
Again this all leads back to forgiving him the key to freedom lies here.
I considered it very carefully before I labelled him a narcissist. I did a ton of reading and he fits the pattern and traits that narcissists display.
I’m not sure that a narcissist would say my last comment a bit confused here.
Incognito, it’s absolutely normal to be hurt by someone else’s bad behaviour.
And it’s also very helpful to identify how we, as individuals, sometimes enable other people to treat us badly.
This man refused to do what you wanted him to do, even though you tried every means you could think of – leaving, coming back, morphing into someone else – to make him deliver.
Perhaps now the time has come to stop banging your head against this brick wall – and also to figure out what makes you want to bang your head against a brick wall in the first place.
Why was it so important to you to stay with a man who clearly hurt you terribly?
“Why was it so important to you to stay with a man who clearly hurt you terribly?”
Great question, Etherlreda. A question that I would imagine would apply to most of us here on this blog. For me, it wouldn’t be just men, it would be people. That question helps us to get unstuck. Veracity
For me it was fear – fear of being single and pitied by the Smug Marrieds; being seen as a second-class citizen. Fear of Missing Out, missing the last train; missing the mysterious ‘boat’ to the paradise on earth/get out of jail free card that I thought marriage was.
I did all this to myself. None of my friends thought this way about me or about life. It took me a while to realise that I personally was putting myself under all this pressure because I’d spun myself a hokey web of beliefs about what love was, what it felt like, and about marriage being the solution to all my problems.
In short, the person principally responsible for my unhappiness was me. OH, that was a HARD ONE TO SWALLOW, believe me …! But very nice when the weight was off me at last; I felt about a hundred years younger and about a hundred kilos lighter.
Incognito – It’s important because as a Narcissist your ex destroyed your ability to validate YOURSELF whilst simultanously getting your hooked so you functioned only with his approval/say so/’presence’ – that is what initially fed his ego until boredom makes him need another source.
I had similar issues with Psychologists until I validated my thoughts and feelings about their lack of effectiveness and found people who worked for me. Some therapists I found wanted to normalize what he had done – with no knowledge of him at all or what he had done – very dangerous with Narcissism because it is teaching you the victim that your pain and anger ie YOUR feelings and instincts are to be suppressed – which is also what the Narcissist taught you!..and this was all before I realized it was Narcissism I was dealing with.
Only advice I have is to find a SAFE HEALTHY way to let that anger and emotion out – whether that’s writing here or writing to yourself, finding another ‘therapist’ friend or shouting into the wind – regularly (with no one around) but I would not advise revenge to out your anger – in any circumstances – because as you have found out it backfires and you will feel worse than them – not equal or superior as you imagine.
It is perfectly normal however to feel like crap without a Narcissist for YEARS after – he is getting the same strength of feeling from it as you are – but whereas you get the negative he receives a boost to his ego. This is the real relationship you had.
Some good news – in the rest of the world it is not normal – you did not experience a ‘normal’ relationship in any way if you had a relationship with a Narcissist. I can absolutely guarantee you that. Find a way to validate your own feelings. He’ll get his own reward. Focus on yourself.
Oona, I had the same thing happen to me with a therapist! He kept taking sides with the other person. He kept giving them the benefit of the doubt instead of me. One of the other people he kept “making case for” was a guy I mentioned in a previous post – who I’m pretty sure is a sociopath. He wanted me to date him.
He kept telling me to trust my instincts, then when I would express what my instincts were, and he would criticize them. He had me so confused that I finally told him, you tell me, I can’t trust my judgment, so I should trust your judgement instead…he smiled and nodded yes.
I finally came to my senses when he yelled at me in therapy. I snapped out of it very quickly. Jerk.
I’m very reluctant to look for another therapist now. It took me a long time to recover the ground I lost while working with that creep.
It is very important to listen to your gut. Even if the ‘professional’ doesn’t always agree with you.
Totally – ‘listen to your gut’ therapists are people after all and as susceptible to personality issues as all the rest of us. Sorry you had a bad time with one therapist also Veracity – its so difficult to trust others again after – but at least we learned to trust ourselves this time – which is great.
I found out some time later that ‘normalizing’ is often a strategy taught to be used by counsellors and psychologists – in some attempt to get you to – move on – sometimes well meaning friends will use it also – which in the difficult breakup of a normal relationship is good – but in a narcissist relationship as I stated is really bad and compounds the issue the Narcissist triggered in the first place.
This doesn’t necessarily mean they are bad but shows THEIR complete misreading of the situation – a Psychologist at least should KNOW what a Narcissist is and have recognised from your description what you were possibly talking about.
I hope if you venture towards another therapists it is a much better one for you.
Oona,
My therapist helped me out to a point but yes at the end she became more focused on him than me.
I would ask for help in various areas and felt so childish for revealing how things were for me about this mere man. All focus seemed to be on what he said and did and not on me breaking patterns and knowing how these patterns formed.
It was actually her in the end who admitted that I needed a bit more expert help.
If you don’t feel confident and good coming out of therapy – its definitely not working/has gone wrong somewhere – like a relationship.
I’m glad she honestly admitted she wasn’t up to the job Incognito but I’m curious – did she refer you to someone who could help/give you a name of someone else who may be better for your needs? (as a caring professional therapist here would do in a situation they couldn’t deal with) or left you hanging????
Hi Oona
Yes she gave me a name of a person I could see or I have other options.
Though generally I do know the answers I am just stuck on implementing it all and staying strong and wanted to know more about how my upbringing has set me up for bad relationships.
Incognito — I was where you are for decades:
“I have not yet run out energy to explain things to him. I am not satisfied he has heard me or understood me and I don’t know why it is so important to me to keep trying.”
I finally figured out why I felt that way: In my head, NO ONE behaved like that. Therefore, he could not know what he was doing. Therefore, if I explained it the right way, he would behave properly, and all would be well.
One day I asked my counselor (again), “Who behaves like that?” My counselor said, “He does. He always has. He cares, but not enough to behave differently.”
That was what I needed to hear. 1) He did behave like that. 2) He did care. 3) He didn’t care enough to stop behaving like that.
This may not be where you are stuck. But, I can tell you that I don’t have to explain,explain, explain to my current, 8-year partner. And that works better.
I filed for dicorce the
Thank you Otter your comment gives me hope I can be free of all this stuff.
This describes our “communication” with a happily girlfriended exEUM. “I am only gonna address the stuff that you bring up ’cause I don’t want you to find out more and you inevitable will, if I speak up”. But this happened as a Round 2. Meaning only if I pushed and pushed and pushed. His usual tactic was to just not respond to my questions or when I said I was in pain when he sad or did sth. And then stonewall me as a punishment for bringing any “heavy” stuff up. And then hit refresh a few days later.
Back then I had zero self-esteem and all of the above was not enough for me to be disgusted with him (and myself, for having stayed). But I knew that I was losing my mind and at the same time tired of being always alert to how his persona is gonna crash our “relationship” next time. I needed to break the bond (no matter how imaginable or one-sided), to break an addiction. What helped me was NC and the second thing – I realized that this type of communication breeds the dynamic of a mommy and a child. I was the mommy scolding a small child for lies, trying to find out what else he was conceiving etc. After having realized this, my sex drive for him went from 101% to maybe 10%. In short – I stopped desiring him. I did not want to be his mother. I did not want to guard a grown up man. I could not have sex or anything of that sort with a child in man’s body. And I definitely hated being in a position of a cruel, suspicious mother to him.
Of course, it’s an issue of character and shows the lack of trust etc. But at that point I was not ready to address those and this small mind trick helped me to step back.
I did not want to guard a grown up man. I could not have sex or anything of that sort with a child in man’s body. And I definitely hated being in a position of a cruel, suspicious mother to him.
My last ex was a manchild, as well.
They say that men marry women like their mothers, and women marry men like their fathers.
My sister has a very useful further development on this principle: she says that we actually try to TURN our partner into our mother or father.
We meet someone who may have these characteristics in potential only, and we then put time and energy into making sure that those really awful characteristics that we associate with each parent emerge from the partner. We do this mostly without realising it, because we’re trying to create someone who we’re comfortable with – even though it makes us thoroughly miserable.
So I’d suggest your ex had BIG mommy troubles, and that dynamic just played itself out in your relationship!
Amazing insight Why.
@Incognito stop looking for validation. You’ve said he’s narcissistic, that’s like getting empathy from a stone. He isn’t going to say, he probably doesn’t even know, he doesn’t care about you or your feelings because as you said he’s a narcissist. Let it go.
Anyway to the topic at hand… After dating this guy over the course of last year I’ve realised some people really don’t need talking to. He still wanted to be friends (gathering a harem), he would still persistently call and text despite telling him not to (busting boundaries), he would do something and not accept the consequences then bust boundaries to get his way, he lied about himself and then when I would repeat it apparently that isn’t who he is, he has a family and actually had a newborn son when we got together (drip feeding, hiding information). And despite all my talking at various points wouldn’t understand why we can’t be friends or involved. People are a trip as they say in America.
Shay – You are so correct in describing a Narcissist as getting empathy from a stone! unfortunately the point about dating a Narcissist is – you can’t let it go – they gave you too many seemingly real examples – you believe you experienced – where they ‘appeared’ NOT to be a stone and extremely empathetic (to cover THEIR ass & keep you hooked only) – so you actually need to deal with the real feelings you have (ie allow yourself to feel your feelings fully and openly) in a safe and healthy manner, in a nuturing environment – like on BR – away from them.
Sorry but I’ve dated a narcissist and you can let it go. If you chose not to let it go then you’re still choosing to participate. It’s called being responsible for yourself and your own well being. You can’t get answers from someone who only cares about themselves. If you label them a narcissist then why oh why are you not working on letting it go?! Why is the need for some kind of validation so important instead of validating yourself? Let it go… the more you stop wanting someone to give answers is the more at peace you are with who they are. And that was my original point plus it’s an oxymoron, you can’t want someone to care about your feelings if you’ve labeled them a narcissist. Makes no sense to me at all.
Hi Shay
I am working on letting it go just struggling with some things, but I am a work in progress.
Great you managed to get away from a narc.
Spanish Jackie & Incognito,
I SO understand how you feel – I have been there too. I have done the same mistakes all over again.
“I had given him many many chances. But little by little his true character became obvious to me, and I could no longer dismiss or rationalize his behavior. I also know that I was in way too deep, and needed time and space to get free from his manipulative clutches. The thing about Assclowns is, they know that the more they keep you talking, the weaker you are. The more energy you expend explaining why their behavior is unacceptable, or trying to prove that you’ve caught them red-handed, or whatever it is you’re still discussing with them, the more susceptible you are to their lies and manipulation. They know if you’re still expending energy, you’re still plugged in emotionally.”
That is SO true! With narcissists, it´s called `Hoovering´:
http://blog.melanietoniaevans.com/hoovering-how-the-narcissist-tricks-you-into-breaking-no-contact/
http://blog.melanietoniaevans.com/hoovering-how-the-narcissist-tricks-you-into-breaking-no-contact/
http://letmereach.com/2014/01/24/when-the-narcissist-promises-to-change/
It has nothing to do with love, but everything with control, manipulation and abuse.
It took me 6 months to successfully establish and enforce my boundaries and no contact. I just couldn´t – or didn´t want to – believe `my´ EUM would re-contact me just to then devalue me and let me down again and again.
When they `hoover´/weasel back into your life, they usually already have other `supply´/targets lined-up on the side-line: the EX and the NEXT woman, as well as several other more or less secured `sources of supply´ they are constantly chasing after on online-dating sites, and sometimes offline as well.
They love to pit one woman against another, it´s called TRIANGULATION:
http://letmereach.com/2014/08/10/the-narcissist-the-ex-and-the-new-girlfriend-the-art-of-triangulation/
By triangulation and hoovering, they are managing down your expectations, keeping you off-balance and basically manipulating the whole on-off-cycle of the `relationship´and everybody involved.
Of course, I do not know whether your EUMen show off narcisstic traits, but I really believe that these tactics are used by many non-narc EUM too.
Sometimes, we just have to let go of the wish for decent closure. How can we expect closure from a man who has not shown you care, love, trust and respect IN the relationship, when we are now OUT OF a relationship anyway? And do we REALLY need closure? What kind of closure??
http://www.thenarcissisticpersonality.com/no-closure/
https://afternarcissisticabuse.wordpress.com/life/closure-not-so-fast/
Go NO CONTACT and stick to it. I know how extremely hard it is, especially when we are not able to communicate respectfully with the other person. But sometimes, there is just no way to do that, because clearly, the other person is not even interested in honest communication:
https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/10-reasons-you-cant-communicate-with-a-narcissistic-or-borderline-woman/ (the article is about women narcs but also applies to men narcs)
Don´t waste your time and energy attempting to create sanity out of insanity.
Good luck! :-*
Alice,
Your comments are pretty much what I went through. Read your link for skrink4men and wow! My ex EUW to a tee, at least 4 out of the 10 reasons. I think that has helped with some closure and of course BR. Thanks for that! 🙂
Alice, your comments about narc behavior are excellent, and explain this pathological mind-set so well. The hoovering, the triangulation. We beat our heads against the wall yearning for something that willl never happen (no, not a return to the so-called “perfect” relationship, but yearning for “closure”). Great links, too!
I think it’s easier to get over the jerk-behavior of the narc than it is to get over our own stuck need for “closure.”
It’s easy to get over them if we think: “How would we advise our best friend, if she were dating a guy like that?” Or “If my daughter was dating a guy like that, what would I tell her?” We know what the answer is; dump his sorry butt, run, and run faster.
But somehow we feel — completely unjustified — that we owe it to SOMEone (ourselves, the jerk, the universe, whever) to bring it to “closure” and to try to make sense of utter garbage nonsense. Trying to make an emotionally blind person (the narc) see the impact of his actions, apologize, change his ways. It’s like trying to change the rotation of the earth around the sun; once a fixed pattern, it’s not gonna change.
The challenge, as you point out, is to feel good about switching the focus off of them, to ourselves, to heal and honor ourselves. In that healed and honored place, we would never justify a relationship with people like that!
Thank you, Alice, very useful information and very helpful links.
Alice the descriptions of our feelings and the core wounds it represents are invaluable – thank you – very good explanation of the whole cycle.
Thank you so much for the links, Alice. I haven’t made it through all of them yet, but the one about how the narc tricks you into breaking no contact was really helpful for me. What I found especially helpful was the way they identified “gaps” that leave us open to these people and specifically describing what led to these core wounds. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen them laid out so clearly before. Perhaps I have and just wasn’t fully ready for the information at the time.
Thanks again! Veracity
Thanks for the links, Alice. The NPD breakdown was very insightful. It was an NPD female coworker who in a roundabout way led me to finding Baggage Reclaim. She has 9 of the 10 traits listed. Bottom line, there is no mutuality when you are in a relationship with a true NPD.
Also, I believe that the EUs and ACs we deal with are also recreating their childhood dynamic. We have to remember it is not our job to show them the light or rescue them. We just need to move on. Then we need to figure out why we held on, fix our own issues, and keep an eye out for a healthy dynamic with someone else.
This post is so true! I remember when the assclown tried to comeback after leaving me for someone else. It’s amazing how they pretend like they’ve done nothing wrong and will talk to you like your the best of friends. I already knew I was done with him, I just didn’t share that news with him!
I never once asked him what happend between him and the other woman because I knew he already had a ready made excuse. Of course he never mentioned it, but he did try to hit the reset button and actually had the nerve to talk about having a “relationship” after he left me for someone else. As if I didn’t notice he was gone for months not to mention the last time I saw him he was with her! I’m sure he was wondering why I never asked him about it because I know he knew I remembered! But he figured it out when I just stopped engaging with him altogether! I wasn’t about to waste my time trying to get an explanation from him and why he did what he did. Because it didn’t matter anymore. He never once apologized or even acknowledge that his behavior was so inappropriate and truth be told it really didn’t matter. I no longer trusted or liked him. I was never nasty, cruel or cussed him out because he wasn’t worth it.
Stephanie,
That was very mature of you not to engage and just call a spade a spade. I too let things be when my ex EUW tried to blame me for everything that went wrong in our relationship. I had ended things with her one week prior to her sending me a text asking if we could have one more talk. Of course I answered thinking that she finally seen the light or that she would take responsibility for her actions in the demise of our relationship. I left work early so we could meet up and I let her speak first and the first words out of her mouth was blame, blame, blame. I just sat back and let her character unravel in front of my eyes and ears. There wasn’t even a “how much I love you and can’t be without you, what can I do differently, I’m sorry for my actions in this.” Who does that? Who would text someone for what could possibly be the last conversation before you never see that person again and blame them for everything? How do they think that would draw the person back into their lives again? So, I just sat back and listened (didn’t get mad or reciprocate) and calmly said that this isn’t working for me. She wasn’t worth the time and effort to explain anything anymore. I have been in NC for 3 months now and at times still shake my head as to how does someone who supposedly loved me, treat me that way? I may never get the answers I seek and that’s ok, need to focus my energy and thoughts to myself.
Stephanie,
I had a very similar experience and I can understand quite well what you mean.
After my breakup (after 8 yrs in a on and off relationship) from the assclown, we visited a therapist (after my prompt) for advice in order to be back together. His excuse for the breakups was my 11 year old daughter. He was always blaming me that I haven’t taught her manners. This is totally untrue and a big big excuse from his part. Anyway, during our visit to the therapist, I told him that he is either totally in the relationship and focused in solving any problems or out for all. Guess what he did!!! He disappeared for almost a month and when he realized that I wouldn’t contact him, he appeared out of the blue in order to have a talk. The first words that came out of his mouth were something like “Aren’t you puzzled with your daughter’s behaviour???”. BLAME!! So, I told him that he was supposed to be the adult and not draw this disappearing act on me and as far as my daughter is concerned, I would always try to support her and do the best for her. I told him that I don’t trust him anymore. You know what? Ever since, one whole year, he is trying to slip in my life again, but I am wiser now and I don’t let him. The funny thing during this phase is that he unfolded and I saw him for what he is. I was always suspecting that he was cheating on me with his ex (a married woman) because he was always using my situation (divorced , two lovely kids) to manage down my expectations and avoid commitment. We have never been together since then, but he was trying to keep me under his emotional control using various techniques. I told him that I knew about his ex (current?) and that I don’t want him to contact me anymore. He admitted his cheating and he begged for forgiveness and for another chance!! REALY?? After so many chances andthrought this 8 yrs joke that was our relationship? Since then (6 months), I haven’t answered to any of his e-mails, texts, cards, fishing through common friends, e.t.c. I am serious this time but he can’t accept that he can’t control me anymore. He sends pathetic texts saying how he is so sorry and that he is willing to do everything in order to have a fresh start with me. For me he is a very usefull past experience and a way for my wisening, but not a man I can respect, trust, admire and share my life with. He deeply knows that, but he can’t accept it. Eventually I hope he will.
Nat’s posts were a great-great help during this process. Keep reading!!
Eleni
Good for you! These EUM don’t get it, you can’t just disappear and then show up acting like nothing happend! When they do unfold you start to look at them and they start to look ugly and pathetic which makes it much easier to say adios!
This post applies to other situations, such as jobs. I’ve tried to discuss what is not working over and over and over. But when I finally quit I suspect folks will say, Why, why? At some point it’s time to stop talking and start walking.
Ellen, you are so right, sometimes you have to put on your sailing shoes.
it’s from a song from little feat another is all that you dream helps. Stay strong
Incognito,
I feel your pain in trying to explain things to him and wanting answers. I also to a certain extent am going through that same transition with my ex girlfriend. Like Nat has said “trying to make sense out of nonsense”. I think in our minds we are trying to control or change their character to something we wanted their character to be or thought it would be. For us to get explanations or answers, I think we are hoping that after one more talk or trying for them to understand us that they will see the light. Unfortunately they won’t and we need to keep reminding ourselves that they are who they are and focus our leftover energy on us. Trust me, I have had numerous talks with my ex EUF during the end of our relationship to try and get her to see the light or for her to understand my point of view and/or feelings. In the end, it didn’t matter…she had one perspective or only seen things her way. You can’t change people or their character through numerous amounts of explaining. I have been in NC with her for 3 months now and there are still days I wish I could have one more chance to explain however like Nat has posted “Exactly how much do we really need to explain to somebody who already knows what they’ve done, about what it is that we know about.” Why are we trying to waste are time, energy and emotions on someone who can’t take responsibility for their actions. I keep reminding myself this ever time it pops in my brain and focusing on putting the time, energy and emotions toward healing myself. I hope this helps a little.
🙂
Perhaps we keep on trying to explain (to them) because we really want to understand it ourselves, not that we really do believe they’ll suddenly see the light and “get it” how assclown their behavior is, and how they repeatedly hurt other people. The huge desire for explanation is for ourselves, I think, to find out some logical reason why we were treated like chopped liver. The truth may be that there IS no logical reason. Once realizing that, at least for me, it makes it a bit easier to just walk down my own path again without any more attempts to explain what should never need explaining in the first place.
A guy I’d dated for awhile once said to me, when I told him (after it was over) how his shagging someone else during our relationship was absolutely unacceptable, and his response? “Well, you never told me to stop.” Huh? really?!? I need to actually TELL a boyfriend to stop shagging someone else? Wow. With that kind of excuse, there is absolutely nothing more to say! His words say it all! Gotta just throw up my hands, shake my head, and walk off, thinking “Boy, with people who think like that, trying to reason with them is like trying to put lipstick on a pig.”
Nina,
I totally agree with you! I did want to understand it for myself because I would never treat anyone like that. That’s the hardest part for my brain to adjust to. How are there people out there that don’t have the same values or morals as I do? Learning to just throw up my hands, shake my head, and walk off as you did. Thanks for that. 🙂
Nina & Kozak,
That’s why I didn’t even try to get an explanation from the EUM because his behavior was indicative of his character! So trying to make him understand how hurtful his behavior was was pointless.
I would never treat him the way he treated me not because he didn’t deserve it, but because that’s not who I am. I believe in what comes around goes around so when you do this kind of stuff is comes back. Do I believe he knew he hurt me yes! I just think he didn’t care as long as he wasn’t the one getting hurt!
You know how I knew he didn’t get it because when he called me out of blue a 1 1/2 year later to tell me he was getting married! I never asked who he was marrying because I already knew and I didn’t care, but he didn’t know that! I just sat there and listen to him talk to me just like he treated me so well and it only proved what I knew that he was so disconnected from his behavior that walking away was the only smart thing to do.
Stephanie,
Wow! All class by him…what was even the point to tell an ex that you’re getting married. That doesn’t even make any sense to me. Once you’re done, you’re done and especially after 1 1/2 years. You did the smart thing and just walk away. Good for you!
Kozak and Stephanie — maybe this guy called Stephanie to tell her he was getting married (big whoop; anyone can get married. STAYING married is the goal) to get one final mean twist directed towards her, to try to deliver the message that “See, this coulda been you, baby, if you’d played your cards right,” or even “Wow, baby, just wanted you to know what a loser you are, and how I’m marrying someone else, ha ha.” In either case, very immature. And I can only imagine how disturbed the wife-to-be would be if she knew he’d made that call. She’d be rightfully thinking, “WTF??”
Stephanie, his call just showed his true colors — one more time.
Kozak, sometimes when I envision them as being things from another planet, that helps; they just don’t have our values, our compassion, our morals, our ethics, our caring, our willingness to work on problems. Not only do they not have these qualities, they don’t value them, and they don’t even really understand in the heart what these values are; they know what the words mean, but they can’t internalize what these concepts really mean. Their minds (synapse connections, whatever we want to call it, lol) are just wired differently!
Nina – totally laughed at putting lipstick on a pig analogy!
‘Why are we trying to waste are time, energy and emotions on someone who can’t take responsibility for their actions.’
Good question!
When you answer that for yourself you KNOW you are truly free of them.
Thanks for your words on the last post and for the tough love. You’re right, I need it.
I’ve taken a couple days off to distance myself from this guy and situation. I do care about the MM and don’t want to hurt his wife. I dont want to fool around with him anymore there is just an insane attraction between us that is magnetic and it is very difficult to manage when I have to be in the same workplace. I did break things off first in fall and he kept coming back around and it was hard for me to stay strong, but now that he’s told me they are having a baby, I really don’t want To be in a relationship with him. It is just hard to stop the attraction and sad that we’ve lost our friendship.
I’m sorry if my posts earlier this week made me sound like Im trying to break up his marriage. I don’t want that. I just wanted to know that he cared and didn’t move on thinking I’m sitting around heartbroken. But yeah, that’s selfish and I can see that my feelings don’t matter in the context of what’s happening with them.
I’m sorry if I sounded defensive yesterday, I just feel like some people who didn’t read my earlier posts think I’m sleeping with this guy while his wife is pregnant. We fooled around when I thought he wanted to be with me, but we never slept together and it stopped when he couldn’t make up his mind (and I didn’t know she was pregnant). I’m sure I still come off badly here, but I don’t think his wife is a frickin saint and I’m a horrible OW trying to break up a marriage. I’m just trying to manage myself in a tough situation and move on with good feelings if possible. I really do appreciate your thoughts and support.
Earlier this week, after I told him aGain that I can’t come by and we can’t be friends, he emailed and apologized for how shit he’s been. It’s just really bad timing when we met and realized our feelings and now there’s nothing he can do about it. He said he hopes that one day the timing will be right and we can be together. I didn’t really know what to say. I just said again I don’t think we can talk anymore and that I wish him well but am looking for a new job. I don’t want to be involved in breaking up a marriage with kids. I don’t know what hes thinking. I think he is either trying to string me along or he is confused about his feelings since I’ve been pulling out of any kind of relationship with him.
“He said he hopes that one day the timing will be right and we can be together.” Ha, I almost spit out my lunch. This is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. He is a bigger douche than I thought, and I already thought he was bad. If he REALLY feels that way, why not be honest with his wife, get a divorce and let her get on with her life and find a better man instead of being in a cheating lying marriage. Nope, he’s gonna try and have his cake and eat it too. He’s also trying to make himself look less like a douche by painting this fairytale image of everlasting love with you, maybe someday, maybe someday….. And Leanne, his wife may not be a saint, but how does that even matter, she is the one who is married to him. You can’t find fault with her over this and try to rationalize your own behavior. You aren’t a terrible person, but your anger is misplaced. Instead of pulling her into this, look at him and see him for who he is. This magnetic attraction you feel for him is unhealthy. Instead, examine why you are attracted to an EUM who has clearly not been a good guy. Focus on YOU. You will get the truth from us here, even if it’s a bitter pill. I think I’ve said enough, and in keeping in line with this post, what needs to be said has been said. It’s up to you now. Good luck and be strong.
Wonder if he’s got a timeline in a secret draw at home with a mark indicating the approximate year/date when he anticipates that the timing will be right. Something like 2020 – son begins school, wife back at work, initiate divorce proceedings; 2021 – divorce finalised, see if Leanne still available.
Lizzp — great calendar! lol! With intermittent calls, texts (innocent “how are you? thinking about you” BS) just to keep her on the line until 2021!
But by then, Leanne will have thrown this garbage into the compost pile and will be healthy and happy with herself and all the friends / relationships she brings into her life!
I am predicting the 32nd of NEVUARY!
Ha! ha! A perfect date for his big comeback!
Leanne, WAKE UP.
I do care about the MM
You DON’T care about him.
If you genuinely cared about him, your first words to him after his first pass at you would have been,
‘You know, X, you’re a married man, and because I value marriage and believe in it, and because I care about our friendship, I won’t be having anything further to do with you socially. So on Monday, when I see you at the office, we will pretend this didn’t happen. But you have picked the wrong woman for fooling around with, and if you do it again, it’s a sexual harrassment complaint from me to our boss, immediately. Do I make myself very clear?’
You care very much about an imaginary version of this man (the kind, warm, funny, pleasant, loving, faithful sexual partner) but every now and then the real man (extremely married, smug, exploitative, dishonest) has a way of intruding on your fantasy, and you resent it very much.
and don’t want to hurt his wife.
The best way to not hurt her would have been to give him the ol’ heave-ho before things got interesting.
Are you perhaps instead really saying that you don’t want her to find out?
I dont want to fool around with him anymore there is just an insane attraction between us that is magnetic and it is very difficult to manage when I have to be in the same workplace.
And here we go again. This is Relationship Crack. Put down the pipe, and stop smoking it.
You don’t have a magnetic attraction betwee you; human beings aren’t made of metal, the last time I looked.
I’d suggest instead that your so-called relationship consists of the following two things:
1) YOU feel a strong magical unicorn fairy-dust vibe for him, because you’ve got limited self-control and were an easy conquest for him, for reasons which you have so far refused to explore.
2)HE feels kind of sorry for you because you were such an easy sexual/emotional conquest, but hey, you’re both adults, and it was a bit of fun and forbidden fruit, and a very easy ego-stroke for him, and no one found out, so it’s all OK.
When you put these together, they don’t add up to ‘a magnetic attraction between us’.
It is just hard to stop the attraction and sad that we’ve lost our friendship.>/
This tells me that you are still living firmly in La-La Land. There is NO ATTRACTION. There is your addiction to some kind of pretend romance you’ve created in your own head, and there is the harsh reality that he has played you for a fool, and won.
You are not friends. You were possibly friends once upon a time, but that is now utterly destroyed because you chose to take it to the next level.
Friends don’t intrude sexually into each other’s marriages. Friends don’t have to keep a relationship secret. Friends don’t have to hide from the boss.
And there’s no point wailing that I don’t understand, because I understand ONLY TOO WELL.
Earlier this week, after I told him aGain that I can’t come by and we can’t be friends, he emailed and apologized for how shit he’s been. It’s just really bad timing when we met and realized our feelings and now there’s nothing he can do about it. He said he hopes that one day the timing will be right and we can be together. I didn’t really know what to say. I just said again I don’t think we can talk anymore and that I wish him well but am looking for a new job. I don’t want to be involved in breaking up a marriage with kids.
Isn’t it marvellous how breaking NC makes you feel? Isn’t it worth it, injecting all that ambiguity and obsession into a wound that was just starting to heal, and dragging the whole thing out just that teeny bit longer?
Start learning.
Ethelreda – I LOVE reading your posts. I have no idea if you were around when I started posting on BR. If you were I don’t think you posted to me when I first started because I would remember but every time I read one of your posts you give me more insight that I didn’t know I needed. Part of me wants to type out my whole story to you so I can get your response. 🙂
I feel the same, Lynn. Thank you, Ethelreda, for sharing your wisdom. I always look forward to reading your posts.
Leanne, attraction is so low on the totem pole of what makes up a quality relationship … I’m curious why that would be so important to you, in making decisions about what to do. Yes, he is trying to string you along, and loves loves loves the fact you’re still attracted to him. Once you really see how incredibly ugly it is of him to continue doing this (while his wife is pregnant? Really?? And continuing to lead you on by saying one day you can be together?? What an a$$clown; what a truly ugly person.) you will eventually lose your physical attraction to him and start seeing him for who he really is — pretty ugly. Would you really want to be with, or worse yet, married to a guy like that? When your reasoning takes over, your attraction will fade; trust me.
“It’s just really bad timing when we met and realized our feelings and now there’s nothing he can do about it. He said he hopes that one day the timing will be right and we can be together.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8XTpCwicwE
ljsrmissy, love it! Very funny.
Leanne – you are hooked literally (as in fish with hook through mouth) – and you need to take YOURSELF off the hook – because he is NOT going to help you – it is not in his self interest.
Well done for keeping coming back to BR to get a reality check – a reality check will help you get unhooked however YOU also need to do some work in the real world to stop yourself from getting re-hooked repeatedly – ie swim well away once off hook – if you don’t he will have you for supper – simple as that – every-time. And you will end up like one of those fish with multiple wounds where its been hooked – totally confused, weak from your wounds and unable to stop yourself getting re hooked – until one day they take the choice from you completely………………….. meanwhile you could be living a beautiful life re discovering yourself, swimming around in nature finding wonderful things to sustain and feed you and help you thrive.
Inaction is a choice. If you choose to stick with inaction and not swim away – you are asking to be hooked.
Good luck Leanne – believe in yourself. I promise you it is worth it.
Not that it matters, because I don’t want to be with him anymore anyways, but I think he is full of shit and just trying to string me along/put me on ice for later. Going to try harder for real and lasting NC starting right now.
When you decide, really decide, that you are done – there won’t be any trying about it. You’ll just do it and make it stick.
That’s great! – Non Contact means – no contact – no emails explaining, no response to his personal emails – in fact unless it is necessary business – delete and keep deleting. No polite congrats card for his baby arriving or birthday card. No stopping in the corridor to allow him to have a little chat with you. Head down walk straight on. Change his name on your mobile phone to Non contact. Do not open his texts. Answer his calls. If you get the funniest feeling you are still in a relationship with him – you swim away – ie watching shows on tele you know he loves etc…and especially even if it could be business that he pretends to need to speak to you about – which he will once he realizes you have cut him out – missing one call will still help you more in your business life – than not.
If you can’t work with him and maintain enough non contact to get over him – you need to find a new job somewhere else or a transfer to a different department/ take a long holiday – you didn’t really want but where you will be SAFE from this mans advances dressed up as a conscience – and remind yourself – that his nasty behaviour to you – that you joined him in – has resulted in this situation and that if you go there again this is what you risk – more self harm.
And if you feeling weak and lonely – you come on here and spell it out – read all old posts and comment on them/ try speaking to somebody you know and trust/ find a place that will listen to you now and give you healthy encouragement and distraction to stay away from this disgrace of a human being.
Leanne he is using you and his wife. Reclaim yourself because I guarantee the pain will continue and grow, if you don’t, no matter how he dresses it up.
@rags mom, sorry to hear you broke NC :(. Hope you are doing alright? Did it help confirm how you were already feeling lately? Hope it hasn’t sent you down. You’ve been doing really well!
@colly .. How are you this week? Are you still maintaining NC? I’m a few days behind you now, but I’m back in the saddle. Hope you’re doing well 🙂
Hi Leanne,
I am still NC and doing well this week thanks. I’ve been tested a few times this week, work calls, him texting me, IMing me, sending replies to my work only emails to groups with our in jokes to try and engage me – the last time was at 1am his time today. Its nothing big he’s saying or much, just throwing me some bait to see if he can catch me so he has some fish for his ego supper. I am deleting and ignoring and only responding to work mail – and making sure the mails are to a group only.
I feel much much better for it, no drama, no games, I’m just done and don’t feel the need to give or receive explanations. This morning I’m feeling a little concerned he might think I’m being mean, but I’m very tired, I’ve had a very busy week and my daughter had me up twice in the night, so I’m not going to pay it any undue attention.
I’m really looking forward to my weekend, I have some fun things planned with friends, and I don’t need unhealthy thoughts of him messing it up.
Stay strong Leanne and really try hard to see him as a whole.
“he has some fish for his ego supper”
Bulls eye! Hooray for you Colly! I am rooting for you!
Brilliant!
nat thanks so much for your post. I have been reading for a couple of years. I just want a since of belonging. If they can’t fly right, see ya
I have no time for BS Yea it can be hard but the clouds will part and the sun will shine
yea I am an open book, but sometimes it doesn’t matter. I talked till I was blue in the face. No response but excuses
Energy spend NC Too bad move on
I am
I love this post too. Today I felt EXACTLY like I needed to read this. I read some of the REALLY helpful replies to my post under the forgiveness article. But then I found out just this morning that many of my colleagues had known that the AC had another woman, who they call “girlfriend” (their words – or maybe thats what he called her – to refer to the woman he was cheating on his wife with) and that they were friends with her. They did not know about me.
I find some of this perplexing – I’ve written this elsewhere too. They knew he was married, but also accepted the Other Woman/”Girlfriend” into their circles. Im surprised people do that, maybe thats just me (and I know i was sleeping with him too, but not for years and I wasnt called his girlfriend!)
But in relation to this post, I am thinking that EVEN with NC, (the others who work with the AC, or have to see them or mutual contacts, still must feel the same) it feels like there is no end. Its exhausting. I have no energy left to feel worse. How long does it last….?
I feel that there are still endless amounts of information I dont know about the AC, his marriage, his “girlfriend” [okay so Im actually crying just seeing that label, it sounds so official makes me feel like I was even less than I was…..sniff] and even parts of us, because he was so economical with the truth.
The thing is – the information may go on for ages. I may find out things in years to come, even with NC, from colleagues, friends, people who know him. I get moments still when I realise ‘oh god…of course, he lied about that as well….” and feel sick and ill all over again.
So this post is relevant not just because its about how you cant explain to the AC how you feel, but also because sometimes for YOURSELF, with NC,I wonder how to explain how you feel to yourself?
Its just exhausting processing even more information that only adds to the painful picture, makes you feel smaller, more worthless and less valued. There is no more energy to explain things. One needs to also learn how to step back from *oneself*.
There is a great moment in the film “The Holiday” when Iris talks about her pain. The film is a bit corny, but this monologue still makes me cry. Okay she was in a different situation, and meets Jack Black but I feel her pain too- the film generally reflects Iris’ *exhaustion* of just feeling all the time, and how she has run out of energy. I feel like that too: I just want to know when I will- or can-stop feeling exhausted feeling like this for a long stretch. It feels ok but then I get a blip again.
Your blog talks about not having energy to explain to someone else….but what about to oneself?
“You see, I was seeing someone back in London. We work for the same newspaper and then I found out that he was also seeing this other girl, Sarah from the circulation department on the 19th floor. Turned out that he was not in love with me like I thought. What I am trying to say is, I understand feeling as small and as insignificant as humanly possible. And how it can actually ache in places you didn’t know you had inside you. And it doesn’t matter how many new haircuts you get, or gyms you join, or how many glasses of chardonnay you drink with your girlfriends… you still go to bed every night going over every detail and wonder what you did wrong or how you could have misunderstood. And how in the hell for that brief moment you could think that you were that happy. And sometimes you can even convince yourself that he’ll see the light and show up at your door. And after all that, however long all that may be, you’ll go somewhere new. And you’ll meet people who make you feel worthwhile again. And little pieces of your soul will finally come back. And all that fuzzy stuff, those years of your life that you wasted, that will eventually begin to fade.”
ICan’tBelieveIFoundThis:
Hugs. With time it will fade. Gradually but surely you will be depleted and used up your resources to go over it again and again. Your new life, if you are trying to build a new life, will finally occupy more and more of your time. New interests, new people, new ideas, maybe new job, new places. It is gradual and progressive. Maybe slow sometimes. I believe I have gotten to this point that I am tired even to explain to myself, “Why?” And you will too. There will be just no capacity for this stuff anymore in your soul, heart, and mind. Your new life, life without him, will gradually overtake it all.
And it doesn’t matter how many new haircuts you get, or gyms you join, or how many glasses of chardonnay you drink with your girlfriends… you still go to bed every night going over every detail and wonder what you did wrong or how you could have misunderstood. And how in the hell for that brief moment you could think that you were that happy. And sometimes you can even convince yourself that he’ll see the light and show up at your door. And after all that, however long all that may be, you’ll go somewhere new. And you’ll meet people who make you feel worthwhile again. And little pieces of your soul will finally come back. And all that fuzzy stuff, those years of your life that you wasted, that will eventually begin to fade.”
Only if you’re a self-pitying wino/whino, that is.
Someone who actually wants to make CHANGES in her life could always try the alternative: the emotional equivalent of a cold shower and a nice strong cup of tea, which is reading Baggage Reclaim.
Then you admit to yourself that you were an idiot, and behaved stupidly throughout, even though there was in fact fault on both sides.
Then you start looking at yourself honestly and asking,
“What led me here?
How did I get so lonely, so desperate, so easily influenced by magazines and other bullshit-sellers?
Why was I so easily led into believing that as long as I had Someone, I was not cabbage?
Why did I believe that single people had to be pitied?
Why was I so scared of everything?
Why did I arrange my whole life around casual sex/internet dating/pursuing guys to make them sleep with me/fantasising about them/mooning over married men/whatever?
In short: WHY DO I HAVE NO LIFE?”
Some of the answers to these questions are immensely personal and painful, but I suggest you start looking for them.
I see your MM – and what a catch he sounds, doesn’t he; a real charmer; I can see how it’s really worth wasting all that time and making yourself sick and miserable over a wonderful man like that – told you that you ‘filled a gap’.
That’s nice, isn’t it. You’re the human equivalent of Polyfilla to this man.
Oh my dear, it’s so long overdue time for a Long Honest Conversation With Yourself.
ICan’tBelieve …..
First of all, Believe it.
Second of all, really look at your words.
“…..economic with the truth….” means: He is a liar. Don’t prevaricate and make up candy-coated meanings. You know what he is.
He is a liar.
sorry I should add – the man in my scenario was a MM. We were sleeping together for 4 -5 mths, but some of that was long distance. It ended when he told me is former lover (maybe still his lover? who knows, as Im trying to do NC and caled it all off from my end) was coming to visit him. Hes been married about 20 years, cheated for much or it, and with this woman for about 2 years. And I didnt know about her until that point. So I got stuck somewhere between him saying he still cared about me, but also phoning and texting her when he was in bed with me….AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL) Only thing is we never said we loved each other, he never said he’dl eave his wife, I tried to call it off, but he said I “filled a gap” and wanted me to continue to see him forever…..
ICan’tBelieve —– no, you didn’t fill a gap.
He filled your gap. Between your legs.
I can’t believe (love your name) that you actually stayed in bed with this AC while he called yet another lover …. do you feel much like chopped liver? No? You treat yourself like chopped liver. You treat yourself like the poop on the bottom of someone’s shoe, like you’re grateful to be the poop.
Wake up.
You said you were sleeping together long distance – ha! If physically possible, that’s how it should have been left.
Of COURSE he never said he loves you!!! Having sex is not love.
Let me repeat. HAVING SEX IS NOT LOVE.
Shall I repeat it again? SHAGGING IS NOT LOVE.
Wake up, get out of his bed, get an STD test, be grateful you’ve avoided a bullet (we hope)and get on with your life. And please do some serious work on why your self-esteem is so low you would allow yourself to be the poop on the bottom of his shoe. You deserve better, right?
“no, you didn’t fill a gap.
He filled your gap. Between your legs.”
Ouch. I understand trying to help someone see things from another perspective…an outside perspective. This seemed to cross a line… seemed mean to me.
Veracity; Nope. Not mean at all.
I meant it.
Sex is NOT love. Shagging is NOT love. Disrespecting ourselves in that way so that we are treated lower than whale manure is the fastest way to misery. What’s mean is the way he treated her, right? The faster we realize arseclown behavior like that and walk off, the quicker we will heal.
I repeat; Sex is NOT love. Never has been. Never will be.
Nina Nonarchi; I disagree.
I do not disagree with what you are saying, what I disagree with was the way it was stated. It was very harsh.
Ladies, you’ve both made your point. This isn’t a forum and I don’t want the comments to go any further off topic. I appreciate both your perspectives and there’s something to be learned from each but draw your line now and end this sideline discussion. If in doubt, please read the site guidelines: https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/about/site-use/
In my case, it is not stepping back but rather reflecting on the last year and my expectation for apology and some sort of explanation. It has been a year since the breakup. Only recently I came to the point where I neither need his apology nor my or his explanation what he and I did wrong, what happened, and why. I had been going through all of these ruminations and scenarios in my head (and here on BR) for 9-10 months and the last couple months signified the closing of the door process.
This realization that there is no explanation or apology needed comes gradually, I think, for me anyway. The maturing process that gets one to this state happens along the path of healing. As one heals, the need to be understood and apologized for the hurt become weaker and eventually dissipate. The energy has been depleted. The reserves for the subject of the turmoil has been drained. Sucked out clear with no dust particles left. The fire has been burned. Along the way, for those of you who were “lucky” when the ex broke the NC again and again and you let him/her the chance to speak hoping that “maybe he/she has to say something important or things changed,” you witnessed that nothing has changed and the person doesn’t have anything significant or important to say. No apology or even a slight short sorry, which we don’t need anyway, not in the long run. I too was on the receiving end of an unsolicited contact from the ex few times last year. By text very short, random and artificial. 3 times in all. I responded briefly each time with a hope, which I had back then, that he would say, ” I am sorry what you have gone through.” The last time he contacted me 4 months ago, I asked why you are contacting me? What is the purpose? Needless to say I haven’t heard since.
I was so naive and still believing that he must be very scared and feeling guilty to even say how sorry he is. How naive. Have I grown in the last 4 months… I have grown in the last 12 months but particularly in the last 4 months when I have finally let it go, forgave him, and let go of my need for apology or explanation from me or him. I feel free and relieved. I am thankful to God that He brought this person into my life so that I can finally learn my lesson and live the rest of my life with faith, content, fullness, enjoyment, and never have a need for a man to fill gaps in my life, the gaps which used to glare and bleed but have been closed now for good. No gaps anymore to fill.
Forgive everyone and move on with your life. Enjoy every day of it. There are good and bad days, but all in all, as the healing and letting go processes progress, we will be feeling the lifting off. No need for validation from them or anyone, if we have been learning about ourselves and taking care of ourselves properly.
Thank you, Nat and all the wise, wonderful women and men here on BR. I have learned so much since January-February 2013 like I had never had in my entire life. I am still working on myself, but I can tell the universes and galaxies of difference in my life, attitude, self-esteem, and appreciation for life.
I meant to say January-February 2014, but certainly I WISH I knew about BR a year earlier. However, I take that back. I am GLAD, I discovered BR only a year later. Otherwise I would have never learned. Reading about experiences is one thing. Only going through the pain yourself can get you unstuck. That’s not a textbook and case study learning only, unfortunately. We are all students here, in theory and practice.
I couldnt relate and agree more!!! Great comment, very powerful.
Sofia — awesome work on yourself, awesome realizations!!
Dear Natalie,
the if only, shoulda, woulda etc that you mentioned in another article comes directly to you. If only I had read this wonderful page earlier in my life, 2 and a half years ago.
My latest, 2 years and some months, relationship ended with him cheating and lying and me leaving, not only his house but also his country. Now I have learned and not because I was searching or asking that he got engaged with this girl (they first met 3 months ago, one week before we broke up since I have found out his 2 dates with her.
I do not want to obsess and I know I closed my eyes to a lot of things and now I pay for my choice to stay where I knew I should not have. But really even though I understand I can not stop feeling that I am punished for giving love and respect while he is being awarded for being a cheat and a liar.
Maybe he will be or maybe he will not live happily ever after and yes in a while I will not hurt. But it hurts cause I trusted my truth to a man and I got my soul raped and left with fear, bitterness and regret.
I used to enjoy myself and was pretty self esteemed when we met and I can not understand why the hell I feel for the image of good and hurt in the past guy that he sold me.
Anyway just my thoughts, I am sure it will get better, I try to work on myself back home.
Wish you to always be as inspiring as you are with each and every word of yours right now.
All the best!
I think at the end of the day no matter how much you want someone I admit to being a bad person, the end result is the same. They still treated you badly and you don’t deserve that. The more you love yourself the less they “why” matters. When my ex finally admitted he was lying to me about other women’s company (but would deny cheating- still think he’s lying) it just made me realize ok now he finally admitted but he still isn’t what I want and doesn’t deserve me. He would say he’s a horrible person and I was the best thing in his life – same sob story to try and get another shot. Not this time. Was well over it and the thought of being back together can’t even cross my mind if I tried. He still denied many things I saw in black as white and the fact he lied in the first place for a long time and still was trying to play the honest guy card after the break up to keep me here is all I should have needed. In the end doesn’t matter if they apologize or admit wrongs. Still does not change they deserve more than that.
To admit*
You deserve better*
Sorry for the typos !
Thank you, Natalie. As always, you are so right and helpful.
I have met this guy online and from the beginning had many questions about him. I didn’t feel that he was 100% into relationship and I couldn’t understand why. All excuses he had given to me were not good enough for my friends and family, but I believed in him and tried to explain his behavior. Three weeks ago he sent me a picture of himself blowing a kiss with his left hand… and he forgot to remove his wedding ring. Ooops. I saved a picture and told him “You forgot to remove your wedding ring”. He started text me that it was a college ring, bla bla bla. I do not talk to him and do not plan to. I found out the answer to all my questions I had had. He tried to text me next day, but that was it. When I have read this article, I got even more convinced that there is no need for any explanations, the wedding ring had said it all.
Ooops. I saved a picture and told him “You forgot to remove your wedding ring”. He started text me that it was a college ring, bla bla bla.
I would like to collect a whole book of these excuses. Like the guy who accidentally sent an erotic text to the wrong girlfriend, only to immediately text her again and tell her that it was part of his Great Unfinished Novel … and what did she think of his writing style?
I laughed my head off at that one; it was brilliant …
So a receipt for a cruise with another woman is sent to my email (as well as that of 3 other women) and he calls me and tells me to not open it and do not dare call him about it. So of course I open it and now I am the untrustworthy one who didn’t do as I was told and all that mind effery of a person who knows damn well he is still going on a cruise with another woman but won’t admit it. WTF??????
Oh Sandy, that’s awful. Just awful.
Are you married?
If yes, are you going to STAY married?
Sandy,
Wow, that is some hide he’s got, it’s hard to find the words here.
I hope you are finding a way forward, what a terrible shock for you.
Oh Sandy, I’m sorry that happened. WTF is right!!!!! I hoped you are not married to this man. I’m glad you found out who is is.
Sandy: O, what a tangled web we weave … ooooops; the A$$hole was caught, and blames YOU. What a piece of work. Hopefully all 4 of you women who got the email about his cruise will now realize what a lowlife he is. The woman he’s going on the cruise with? Well, she’ll realize it a bit later. Maybe she’ll fling him overboard to swim wit da fishes.
Er I don’t get it? He sent a receipt to 4 women that he is going on a cruise with another woman – is this some twisted revenge at you all dumping his sorry ass ie look what you are all missing or was it a genuine email mistake and caught red handed?
Either way what an disrespectful bleep of a human being
Well timed, Nat. I’d struggled with this about when a “friend” started dating my ex and they not only tried to hide it from me, neither has said a word to me. He just vanished and stopped hanging out with the guys at all. During my horrid relationship with her I’d confided in this person. We were friends long before she came to town. Now the stuffed animals and them hanging out all the time makes sense. I found out she lied her way into a relationship with me by neglecting to mention she’d cheated on her husband and that’s the real reason her marriage had ended.
I tried to be angry. But like the article says I was just done. Same with them dating. It’s all very shady and, since she seems to have sworn out a grudge against me for cutting her off after the breakup, this guy will ignore me at social events (we are all in a Christian group together) but when she’s not around or leaves the room he tried to act like we are still cool despite his behavior being as shady as hers. And I just want nothing to do with their drama. Everyone closely associated with them, a number that seems to be dwindling as others definitely think their coupling is shady in terms of how they’ve treated me, has developed a sort of weird darkness to them. I just adjusted my boundaries with them and wrote them off. I’m dating a wonderful woman now who is an upgrade in every way. It’s a little weird having someone who treats me like she’s won the relationship jackpot. But handling a “friend” like this, well, gotta “process the breakup” with this person, too. Obviously I have no interest in friendship with someone who acts like this. Wasn’t sure I was handling it right. Ignoring them both, since I doubt either will ever step up, works fine by me and I hope they continue leaving me alone. Next time he tries to act like we are cool I will follow what it says here – let’s put our cards on the table, you know Damon well what you have done and it’s not cool, so don’t act like we are friends. I’m not upset they’re dating, it’s the shady way they went about it with secrets and drama that clearly made mutual friends uncomfortable and indirectly their drama on me. I want no part of them. Godspeed and all that. She won’t change and I do feel sorry a little for the Help he is about to experience.
But that’s not my problem. Keep em coming, Nat 🙂
Burned, on this journey I realized I had to “break up” with some so-called “friends,” too. You sound like you have raised your standards, now have a better relationship (yay!), and know not to be around these toxic people. They deserve each other, and you deserve a better class of people to be around, like your present girlfriend, and pals who aren’t dishonest with you. A success story for you!
Talk about low! Shocking Burnedbyamissunavailable I’m really sorry someone felt that this was an appropriate way to behave towards someone else. I hope you get much better luck with your future relationships – I have a feeling that you will.
Thanks for your responses. It’s hard to see how I come across on here but it’s also good so that I can grow and work in myself. Thank you for the proverbial slap in the face guys! A couple days away has already helped me to get a grip on these feelings already and start to see him again as a whole. He has been mean to me, horrible to his wife and overall very selfish. This is not the kind of man I want to be with. Though he says he wants to be together down the road, he didn’t do anything about it in the fall when it was actually a possibility. And yeah, what is there, some kind of timeline that he thinks is going to work here? 2 years? 5 years? No thanks. I am getting on with my life.
As for me, I can see I have a lot of work to do on myself. Starting again with no contact. I’m in counseling and I am thinking of Nats self esteem class, though I don’t think self-esteem is my issue so much as entitlement and a clear lack of boundaries with respect to marriage. day 3 of real no contact.
Hi Leanne,
You do have self esteem issues, you would not have strayed down this path otherwise. A sense of entitlement comes from the ego, which is what rules your life if your self esteem is low. Please consider taking some steps to address it. Although take it from me that properly being NC does wonders for your self esteem.
Have a restless weekend – an easier NC time when its workplace drama.
I meant have a restful weekend, not restless!
Leanne, Colly and Nina are right in that self esteem is a major issue. Entitlement very much stems from a deeply hidden insecurity. The first step to healing is to recognise this – Nat has some very insightful posts on having an “honest conversation” with ourselves. A good counsellor/therapist will encourage the same I should think.
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/downloads/#ert_pane1-2
Etherelda posts this link above in a comment.
Leanne, self-esteem is very much an issue. Why would a healthy woman who loves and respects herself allow herself to be treated like a second-class mistress? Answer: She wouldn’t. With healthy self-esteem you would have given him the squint-eye the sec he started to flirt with you. You would have thought “He is waaaaay below my standards; what a douchebag. Poor wife.” And you wouldn’t have given him a second thought.
I think Nat’s self-esteem class would open your eyes to how much more — a lot more! — you can grow to love yourself and never more to put up with being second-best, a mistress to some married douchebag. You deserve better.
Well said Nina. Placing ourselves in painful situations and remaining there begins and ends with self esteem,valuing ourselves, trusting ourselves and believing in ourselves. When I peeled back the layers I realised the direct relationship between self esteem, lack of belief in my own intrinsic worth and validation seeking from others who were bound to to not provide.
Every decision and action that results in remaining in and prolonging a painful situation with an emotionally unavailable person is driven at base by a desperate and blind need for external validation.
lizzp, it’s hard to see while we’re still in it, right? But once we drag ourselves out and look back, so many of us (I’m a primo example!) identify low self-esteem issues as at least a partial reason why we got into painful situations in the first place.
I’m still a work in progress on my self-esteem, but it is SO much better now, and I really feel I can kick anyone who’s disrespectful to me – whether so-called “friend,” lover, or family member — to the curb. I don’t have time to wallow with toxic and narcissistic people anymore, and I now know only too well what they look like. I cross the street, both literally and metaphorically, when I encounter one.
Nina,
I am work in progress too and I can definitely relate. I recognize only now that my back then low self-esteem was the reason I stayed. In 3-4 months of the dating with him, he said, “I can’t give you what you want. You want security, stability, and marriage eventually? I can’t give you that. I don’t want to be around you 24/7 either.” What did I do back then? I managed down my expectations and said I am fine the way it is and let’s take it slow maybe you will figure out what you want later. Now I would flush. I just flushed 3 potential dates. One never called after getting my number (back old me would have called him myself to follow up); another one tried setting up a date by text only and is in a “semi-half-long distance relationship” with someone but about to break up (old me back then would keep on waiting and trying), and another one avoided my communication while I was trying to inquire about job opportunities (we met at a professional function but he expressed interest otherwise as well). I just flush these people so well and easily now. And happy on to my single life. I see Sandy said she has been single for two years. I have been for one year and looking forward to more. It is liberating. I have discovered so many hobbies and interests! I can’t keep up. Not enough time. A man … is just an addition. A complement to an already full life. Icing on the cake! So much interesting stuff in life is going on!!!!
Nina, yes, hard to see when we’re still in it. But I’ve found, very similar to your experience by the look of it, that once there is some self awareness it gets a hell of a lot easier in daily life..kind of to be aware of yourself, your limits and boundaries and anticipating what is going to arise internally when being EA with ourselves in our friendships and relationships. Partially, it’s been about catching habitual internal reactions early (in my relating and interactions)taking a breath, and going back to what is loving and trusting and also (importantly I think) respectful of my values and worth, before acting. It’s daily, hourly and I now recognise this as ‘living’ and owning my own but not owning others’ stuff for them. Overall I am living more, rather than feeling like life is just one long ‘reaction’.
Yes, I relate in that I also now recognise pretty quickly what is disrespectful to me – it’s like a coming off auto pilot and steering the plane myself. My energy tends towards what is more likely to develop into mutual exchange and relationship and away from old patterns. As a result I am currently blessed with a small circle of good, supportive, mutual friends and have realistic perspective on the limits of some of my other friendships. I have also just landed a new, higher placed job in my field today!
Nina, also, there is no shame in entertaining the idea that we may not in reality like ourselves very much. The thing is once I started looking at my actions – for eg. over investing in others, giving for a gain of approval, banging my head with righteousness about the faults of EU people that I wanted to change to meet my entitled expectations for mutual relating but they didn’t- vs my image of myself as ‘together’, ‘kind’, ‘unlucky but deserving’ and similar, I realised I was totally BEssing myself. I wasn’t together and I didn’t like myself very much – my actions showed me that. I remain on my my low BS diet.
Congratulations on the new job, lizzp! I have been trying to get a new job and hopefully something will come up very soon. I am not giving up and trying hard. Isn’t it interesting, when we take charge of our own lives, take care of us, and treat ourselves with care and respect, then our life lines up and the results show. Great supportive friends, career change, interesting new hobbies. Self-awareness is the key.
Thank you for the Congrats Sofia. Yes things tend to fall into place, it is so important to try and be aware or become aware early on, consistently, of where we are putting our energy and why. From that position we can act on the basis of being true to ourselves. I’m sure you’ll find the job you are looking for with time. Good luck.
@colly , glad to hear you are doing well this week and managing he workplace contact well. It is so difficult when you have to see each other all the time! Please keep postin and let us know how it’s going. Your strength is inspiring me!!
Colly , Leanne ,
I want to talk to you guys about what happened but scared to post on here as husband may find out …I know us sharing contact details from knowing each other off the internet isnt a great idea, so not sure what to do…
Rags mom -how can husband find out? I’m worried about you, it sounds like you are very tightly controlled at home. Please take care.
Nina Norachi – I couldn’t help by laugh out loud when I read your post, in part it was half laughing half crying, but also because the poop analogy is awful!
To clarify on your comment: I did get up and left the bed (that was how it all ended) and I did take an STD test. And I never ever expected him to say he loved me. In fact at the start of this, he accused me of lacking in affection, how I held back, was guarded, I didnt put xxxs on my text messages. I was alerted to the manipulative part was when he would say “before long, you will be missing me…saying you need to see me again” when he left the first time, and I said ” dont stay in touch,this is over”.
So when I say he didnt love me, I didnt expect it. The sad part came when I wanted him to respect and care about me anyway. I never verbalised this, but he would say he did to me, but he didnt. I know he thought I was funny and clever (maybe a bit intimidated) and he would say he didnt think id stick around with him for long (again, manipulation, so I wld say “of course I will”. But I NEVER did…)
I guess I thought I was in control, emotionally (the physical part was great, I wont lie). THATS the point. I thought I was in control, but I was not. I was stupid. thats what makes forgiving myself all the more harder!
ICan’tBelieve — good for you for drawing the line there and walking out! Yay! And for the STD test; shows that you care about yourself. His mind-games about showing affection are pure manipulation, as you’ve identified.
Flush.
ICan’tBelieveIFoundThis,
Don’t rush your forgiveness to yourself. It will come with time. I know how we, during our healing process, rush to get better because it hurts. But only time and our conscientious work on ourselves will lead you to forgiveness of yourself and forgiveness for him. Earlier in my post here I said that how close I am and almost there, but the funny thing is that I feel now little spasms of grief over letting go off the grief!! It is very odd. I am glad I read and recognize this interesting feeling. When we are closer or at acceptance, we might experience this kind of numb, not sharp, melancholic, sweet in some sense almost pain about it all. Like saying goodbye to being sad and grieving for a year (or whatever period of time) and that process actually hurts too because we have been grieving for quite some time and are used to it. The brain almost molded into that pattern of thinking. It is stepping now into a new life. Shedding the old, moldy, rusty self. Sad and liberating, happy at the same time!!
Sandy. As you know I haven’t been on BR much, but now that I have my new laptop I’m back. Is this the same creep you’ve been struggling to get over for a year or more or is it someone else?
Hey Tinkerbell, nope that is not me up there! I am very, very happy being single thank you very much! It’s been two years in Feb and yep he has still been contacting me, but I just ignore him, he can keep a knocking but he can’t get in!! Haha anyway welcome back, how are things with you??
Hey Sandy. Sorry I’ve only just now seen your response to me. I’m doing very well and my life gets better and better. Hopefully we can connect on a future post. Sandy is such popular name. Somebody should use a last initial to differentiate themselves. All the best, Tink.
Well, I made it for 2 days NC and then i just kinda lost it on MM again and said probably more than I needed to.
I emailed him and asked why he had done this if he loved his wife so much? Why did he keep coming around and saying stuff to lead me on? He said he was sorry and didnt mean to hurt me but loves his wife. I guess I just needed to hear it again to put what he said about wanting to be with me later into reality (suck it and see, so to speak). There’s nothing there. He was just using me and I let him. Feeling really sad :(. I don’t want to be with him anyways, I just wanted to see how he felt and if he was the lying, cheating scumbag that everyone else can see that he is.
I should have just left it there (in the spirit of this week’s post) but instead I emailed back and said that he had really hurt me and that I wouldn’t do the things he had done to someone I hate. I said did you ever actually like me? and mean any of what you said or were you just using me? He didn’t respond. He’s probably shocked I was so direct. I apologized for it, but I don’t think he’ll reapond.
I probably shouldn’t have said all of that but he’s never acknowledged how much he has hurt me and what a jerk he’s been. I feel like he should know.
Anyways, now on with the insanely difficult task of starting NC again 🙁 Trying not to care about him and his life and trying really hard not to regret what I said. I already feel like I want to apologize again and again for it, but I need to move on. NC day 1 (again).
Leanne – I am sorry he conned you. Are you a drama queen? I don’t think you have enough drama in your life for some reason. I would prefer it if you went to the theatre or opera or watched Eastenders anything than this.
The consolation is you are amongst company of people here who have all f***ed up a number of times with Assclowns and then gone back for more – including myself – people are imperfect including you – there is nothing special about you in the f*** up stakes + we all deserve to feel love and we know because we are experts at the f*** ups – so get over it – you have more important things to do now.
So the good thing is, now you have validation that what we have been saying to you all along is …..REAL not just a bunch of crabby people jumping on a moan off – we are for real – he isn’t/wasn’t.
The bad news is he KNOWS you now KNOW and are angry with him – which will either feed HIS ego again or if he has a conscience he may possibly become desperate to get rid of his guilt and shut you down because you are now a potential serious threat to him/his marriage/how he is perceived amoung colleagues at work. Things could get nasty at work.
Before now he has been in control.
So be warned, protect yourself – he may try anything to get to you – either leave or get support in work you can rely on.
And next time you fancy a little bit of revenge because that’s what you are really up to every time you just tell him what he SHOULD hear and are justifying it to yourself STOP KIDDING YOURSELF AND WAKE UP – YOU ARE AFTER VALIDATION THAT HE LOVES YOU – WHEN HE CLEARLY DOESN’T – FROM HIS BEHAVIOUR ALL ALONG – YOU ARE GIVING HIM VALIDATION WITH YOUR PRESENCE AND WORDS.
At least now the only way is up for you – as long as you make sure you thoroughly protect yourself at work. Please tell me he is not in a role of authority over you?
Leanne, please listen to what Oona says. It is all so true. And all the hard love about your situation from Ethelreda is so on point too. We all understand the anguish and we all know it is an ADDICTION. You are battling an addiction that this relationship is. It does not mean that this man is so glorious and good that he hooked you up, or that he is so toxic and bad that he hooked you up. It means that all his maneuvres and UNAVAILABILITY fed into deep beliefs about yourself that you have had before him. For some of us these beliefs have been rooted by parents, by relatives, by previous relationships or whatever. Somewhere deep inside you there’s a voice that tells you that to be the second best, to be downgraded to a shameful secret that should be hidden, is OKAY. It is not, Leanne. You are worth so much more. It seems like right now HE has all the power. If only he could you give you a specific reason WHY he cheated on his wife and told you all those lovey-dovey things at the same time? If only he could explain WHY his attitude towards you has changed so much!
I had the biggest trouble overcoming the “whys”. And not because he did not give me any. He did. My they all were shallow and all praised his good “intentions”. And so I stays for a little longer. Feeding myself on his good intentions (which he’s gonna follow up on, no doubt!) and words that what we had was special. When it all came unwinding, he did answer me why. But, as I said, his words gave me ZERO closure. They only sounded like an explanation but there was no logic in them and I was scared to see that all of his “I was so confused” and “It’s complicated” and “I could not stay away from you” (but did not wish to be with me either) meant that he was a) a coward; b) a selfish one.
We have all been there. It took me over a year of constant back and forth, and those confused and sometimes angry emails and skype calls and texts and what not. But there is an end to this. You hold the power. He does not. You are free. You are to be cherished. If you take this situation now as a lesson to learn something about yourself, set your self-esteem and values straight you’ll win the lottery worth billions. You are on a path to being a mature adult full of compassion and an open heart.
You deserve a man who will feel proud to be seen with you and who will want to scream to the whole world what a gorgeous, smart and fancy lady you are and how crazy lucky HE is to have met you. You deserve a man who will see you as the biggest treasure in his life. Who will contribute to building a bond, and an intimate one, with this precious woman that you are. Do you see how different this dynamic is from the one you have had with MM? Please take care of yourself. Keep reading BR.
PS: I was talking to a therapist and asked her why most of the time reading some wise words or stories of other ‘other’ women does not do anything inside of me. She told me to give it time, to keep reading. It seems not to reach us because we’ve been operating on EMOTION (and words and assumption and other ephemeral things) that LOGIC does not resonate with us. It takes time.
wow …thanks….
Thank you, Why. I read and reread your post. You speak wisdom, experience and truth. Thank you.
thank you so much for this @why! so awesome!
Oh Leanne, I won’t lecture you because you know you shouldn’t have gone there. Words are cheap, it doesn’t ever matter what he says, just remember what he has done.
Please please do not apologise to him, he deserves nothing from you at all.
Back to NC Leanne, it’s the only way
Leanne, after breaking NC few times you will get eventually where even a thought of breaking NC will be foreign to you. You will just outlive the desire to talk to him. I know the feeling of breaking NC, saying more, wanting to hear more, apologize, and getting silence in response. And regretting each time I responded to his breaking NC. That regret each time (4 times I responded to his contact) will lead you closer and closer to a complete NC. It takes trials. Not everyone is strong enough to go complete NC from the start and never break it. You can do it!!
Thank you @Sofia.. very helpful 🙂
Thanks@colly and @nina nonarchi. You make sense re: self esteem and the ego. I’m going to pick up eckhart tolles new earth again. I found that really helpful before re: learning about the ego and seeing how it impacts us and how we operate int he world. Also going to start Nats self esteem class. Thank you for your comments. And yes, have a restful weekend as well 😉
sorry about what happened Lea ….Ive been so wrapped in my misery only just read ur last post …..men …..dont know what to say anymore ….
(HUGS)
Thanks @oona, no he’s not in a position of authority. We are peers so that’s good at least. But I do need to distance myself.
Sorry if I seemed ungrateful the other day or like I was calling people on here crabby. 99.9% of everything said here has been helpful and awesome and I am very grateful for the support. I was just angry about the 1 or 2 comments berating me for sleeping with a MM whose wife is pregnant when that’s not what’s happened. I am very very grateful to you all, so sorry for coming across any differently.
I am serious about getting off this crack now. He emailed back and said sorry again and that he hopes we can be friends again down the road. Jesus, he’s relentless with the friends thing. I said that I don’t think that’s going to be possible and sorry.
I hope that is our last conversation. God send me another job soon! Now I have to go through the whole grieving process again. Ugh! But it’s better than prolonging this.
Leanne, I know someone mentioned drama queen and its hard to see oneself like that. I would say that you are seriously suffering from anxiety – it makes you unable to validate yourself and you need him to do it. Plus you are unable to take responsibility so you need him to do it. He can apologize all he wants. You need to apologize to yourself. I think its important for you to say to yourself ‘this is the last MM I ever get involved in’. A part of you wants to hang on to this idea that you had some amazing attraction and perhaps his wife is awful because the other option is he used you and you let him [why?].
I think BR is very supportive, but it shouldn’t appear that there is support for sentimentality over feelings for an MM. That is a line to not cross, it is a path of chaos. I dont think of the morality of the MM situation though there is that too – I just think its worthless. If you want an EU, there are plenty out there that aren’t MM. You can get all the EU pain your heart desires without adding on the mess of a married coworker.
AND I think theres a danger to make of no-contact some sort of drama fetish thing. Its like those new ‘fit bits’ that track your steps etc – you get fixated on them, you think in terms of them etc. I think if NC is becoming another way for you to dramatize your experience of things, where everything is named and has a name and has a psychological something or other attached to it, its a way to dramatize yourself further. You’re not ‘avoiding an MM that I made a big mistake with’ – but you’re ‘falling off the NC wagon’ etc. I guess I’m saying theres a danger to see yourself as a victim, a martyr, a point of intervention — and thus also avoid seeing whats going on. He’s not a monster [he is, but thats beside the point, theres millions of monsters out there and you are yet to take that step that says I will avoid these people because I dont care to be anyone’s victim]. He is a monster because you are a mistake-maker on this count. He was only a monster because you let him, saw what he was doing, went along with it, felt like crap, went along with it, got treated like crap, went along with it, broke up with an MM [no! one doesn’t break up since one didn’t have them], went back, went along, created drama etc etc.
I actually think your last conversation was better than the earlier ones – you heard some harsher, realer truths. He apologized which may or may not be sincere but its a more honest conversation for recognizing that something messy happened between you. The friends stuff is crap, ignore it. Stop being a victim. And think about what payoff you get from BR’s support and from the emails you send him, and from staying connected. Its only when you move on that you’ll realize the true mistakes you made – you’re hanging on and creating more pain so you dont have to face it, you’re delaying the point you have to reckon with yourself. Trust me, its painful, but its also really freeing. And I’ve only faced myself wrt ex-EU and vague dating EU, not all the other things out there still to face. And you will keep making mistakes, but there have to be learnings from this and you’ll only learn when you stop being so sentimental about him and yourself.
Leanne, you are going to keep grieving and grieving and being miserable until you get serious about NC. Even the drama of being miserable can be addictive, I know that all too well. It keeps you pretending that you are still connected in some way, but it’s an illusion that will rob you of your self-respect, your morality and your character. You may not be sleeping with this guy but he IS cheating on his wife with you. An emotional affair is still cheating and it does grievous harm to her because it involves a betrayal of the most precious trust there is. Every time he contacts you, dallies with you, touches you intimately, thinks about ‘how can I get Leanne to respond?’, does this sick flirting dance with you, implies there is some “hope” for the future – this is a CHOICE he is making to actively deceive his wife, and every time he goes home and she says “honey, tell me about your day” and he doesn’t mention that he was trying to grope you in the office, it’s a LIE of the worst kind. It’s a kind of evil, really. And you are also responsible, because every time you respond to him (and now you know he has a pregnant wife)and keep communication of any kind going, you are helping him further this deception.
I don’t know what more to say. I’ve been on both sides of this – I’ve been the OW who betrayed a friend by sleeping with her husband and I’ve been the wife whose husband had an emotional affair that went on for years. Leanne, one day when you are married you will understand. A betrayal of trust by your husband would shatter your world, believe me.
I also wanted to say something about the “being friends” thing. You cannot be friends with someone who has hurt you, broken up with you, rejected you, betrayed you, used you, etc. and – most important! – does not want the same relationship that you do. It’s impossible. Friendship is based on mutual respect and a dynamic in which both parties have an equal say in what the friendship is and BOTH are getting what they want out of it.
This is not the case when a guy you’re crazy in love with breaks up with you but still wants to “be friends.” The power dynamic is shattered at this point. He has all the power; you have none of it. He gets what he wants, which is to break up and not look like the bad guy. You don’t get what you want, which is to keep him in a love relationship. See? The whole dynamic is out of whack. If you agree to these terms “as friends” you are fooling yourself because there is no friendship here. And it’s not even honest, because you don’t want to be just friends and he is dangling this in front of you only to make himself feel less like a jerk (or in hopes of keeping you on a back burner for later).
Friendship is only possible if you can honestly say that breaking up is what you want also, it’s not painful to see him or be around him in social situations, and you’re not secretly harboring the hope that he’ll come back to you one day.
p.s. my comment about “being friends” was not aimed at Leanne but just a comment in general about this topic since it’s been coming up in multiple posts lately.
“I was just angry about the 1 or 2 comments berating me for sleeping with a MM whose wife is pregnant when that’s not what’s happened.”
Leanne, The site guidelines (at top of home page) might be of use if this happens again. If you feel you’ve been misread/misinterpreted and want to respond, guidelines suggest ask for clarification from the individual poster/s.
It’s good that you have clarified why you felt unsupported as that definitely was not clear from your response towards the end of comments on last thread. You seemed distressed with “people” suggesting you had yet to access your empathy or at least pity for MM’s pregnant wife as a means to help you stick to no-contact with which you were struggling; it was pointed out that the alternative – leaving the door open, meeting to be ‘friends’, continuing to share your feelings of attraction with him and so forth, text exchanges which we assume are not going to be shared with his wife- amounted to your continued participation in deceiving her(and of course deceiving yourself).
I, for one, was suggesting that the fact that you had recently found out about the pregnancy might make it easier to stop all participation in a deceptive situation. Blame/berating someone else/ourselves is pointless and I try to pull myself up every time I go into self or other blaming mode – so many of us have been raised to ‘take the blame’ or cast ‘it’ on others. What can replace taking and casting blame(and I realise you didn’t *sleep* with MM, you “made out” and ended things when he made it clear he wasn’t going to leave his wife for you) is the taking and casting of responsibility. Which Is.Not.Blame. None of this is about *blame* for what is done – but it is about learning and being responsible now, in the present.
You cannot control him or force him to validate you, please give up on trying to make him explain why. You are not some passive object – you are more likely to get the answer to why when you direct the question to yourself. People in mutual, trusting intimate relationships may be in position to enjoy honest and intimate exchange but you and the MM are not in a relationship of this sorts so you know already that no answer of his is going to satisfy you. You want what you can’t have – because it is not there.
You can only start to learn to be responsible for yourself, your actions and your own emotional availability – being available to yourself – if that is what you want for yourself. That’s a process.
Having An Honest Conversation with Yourself for Better Relationships
by NATALIE (NML) on FEBRUARY 22, 2010 ·
Leanne, the “want to be friends” thing really means this:
1) I’m trying to come off looking like a good guy when I’m really an AC (I just don’t want YOU knowing the truth that I’m an AC)
2) Asking to be “friends” keeps you in the loop for whenever I need narcissistic supply.
Friends don’t act like that. Friends don’t do that. You wouldn’t want friends like that. This is not an offer of “friendship;” it’s manipulation from a con artist who will start flirting with someone else, pregnant wife or not.
Leanne,
People will make assumptions when the whole facts are not put out there (or truth coming in dribs and drabs when you react to a comment) re fooling around and bringing up feelings of anger. Rather than (mis)directing that anger on to the lady/couple of ladies whose comments you found very “insensitive”, further explanation would have sufficed (minus the implying groan of not having your back) as the fooling around was started knowingly with a wife in the background. Believe it or not, comments given by BR folk do widen someone’s perspective as often being so close to the malady it is very hard to see the bigger picture. This is what I especially love about this site…there is no sugar coating. Hence the advice initially sought (by yourself) comes with prudent action (by yourself) which I see is on the verge of happening (starting Nat’s self-esteem class) and hopefully from there begin your journey of self-discovery from a healthy place. NC may come naturally after spending this time on you as currently there is a hard time keeping to it. Reading your situation has brought memories re workplace romance as there was no validation/to and fro needed on my part when co-worker cheated on me. Sudden knowledge of his infidelity automatically killed (along with a few slammed doors in his face during the process of NC…boy was I potent back then lol) any further romantic notion/salvaging us, as simply put, it was unfair that someone had two helpings of cake when one piece is more than enough. And truly done I was with the next few guys that came along until it finally dawned that infidelity seemed to like crossing paths with me so I did something about it. This too I think is your moment of doing something about what’s really going on with you.
All the invaluable comments (honest, wise, and loving) provided to date are there at your disposal going toward helping pave the way for forging a much more healthier bond with yourself and others should you pay heed and take action. Continued poor choices though will incur further critique so please do think twice when you come across future comments that go against the entitled self and allowing the little groan to creep back in. BR folk are very inspirational and special kinds of beings. As we honour war heroes similarly BR folk have come out of personal wars with a whole raft of battered and bruised scars in tow so offense to one or two comments dishonours their contribution here on this site (you either take it or leave it but please don’t knock it). Nat’s self-esteem class is going to work wonders just you watch, see, and learn.
The co-worker has a lot of growing up to do, and ‘loving his wife’ is highly questionable given his inappropriate behaviour behind her back. That’s on him and for him to wake up to and get himself on the straight and narrow. Deal with your stuff and you will find the love and commitment you seek once you have a sense of your own healthy well-being rather than someone else’s distorted view of life and what relationships mean. I’m finally getting Nat’s four non-negotiable traits when it comes to living as a human being….mutual love, care, trust, and respect.
There’s a lot of comments here directed towards Leanne, so I don’t want to pile on, but I just wanted to say @Leanne, if you see this comment through the plethora of others, not to beat yourself up too much for breaking NC. I did it a million times. Sometimes you just need to hear the straight truth, you need to hear “I don’t care about you” “I love my wife” “I had no intention of being with you” “I was using you” etc. It’s like it gives you permission to MOVE ON. I don’t know why we do it, but us women will hang in there as long as there is a sliver of a chance that it was US who fucked things up, and not THEM. We think maaaaaaybe if I’d only done x, y, z. When the man finally fesses up and admits what an AC he is, suddenly, you do feel much more free to move on.
Thanks @Diane, that is exactly how I am feeling now. A bit sad because i could feel like last week the old feelings were coming back for him and then I shut him down in anger. but I don’t want to spend my time doing this anymore. I feel like I am really ready for NC. Thank you for your words.
Thanks @Gina and others. Your comments are all so helpful. And sorry again for sounds like I was groaning.. I was just in distress last week and posted in haste. I really appreciate your thoughts and support.
I think Nats post ‘bring the focus back to you’ is my favourite of all time ….if we had the focus on us, put ourselves first consistently = this would ensure boundaries and no acceptance of BS from anyone naturally enough.
Never too late to start …today is a new day , possibly a new beginning …
Hi Rags Mom,
How are you doing today? How are things going home and away? I’ve been concerned about you.
I’m off to the US tomorrow though thankfully not to where ex MM is located. I’ll find it a bit tough though not having him meet me at the airport, and hang out with me on my trip. It’s funny this feeling comes up even though I am so so very done.
I’m now 7 days NC and properly NC in my head for the first time, have even 90% stopped ruminating.
Hi Colly, Ive been trying to keep the details of what happened off here, as husband has been known to check up my online activity, he didnt use to be like that , but since everything tht happened last year.
Anyway, the gist is I broke NC …and OM reacted coldly , very briefly that he didnt ‘know what to think of me anymore…’ and that he had a lot going on ‘unrelated to ‘ me but that he’d ‘keep in touch’ …sounded like a classic brush off to my rather tried and failed ‘ I know ur not interested in more and I dont want to leave my marriage either, but sorry I broke the friendship so lets just be friends’ line …even i find me predictable and tiresome, have done this multiple times since we first started ….anyway this time for the first time he turned me down per above that he was really busy and didnt feel we had the same vibe that we used to but that hed keep in touch. anyway, it wasnt my marital status tht ever stopped him liking me ‘as a friend’ but I gather he felt I was becoming too ‘clingy and needy’ about 6 months ago …so hence him losing interest in me as a person in general cos I stopped playing it cool and showed how painfully I did care.
Anyway, weirdly enough more drama = for some reason just like Leanne said in her posts, I couldnt bear the indifferent way he replied and I went on an instant messenger mode to try and elicit a conversation and then realised that the details of it had gone to my phone , no idea how, google ‘syncs’ everything these days …and then I just deleted the account, he hadnt replied anyway to the gchat opener …and then I emailed and said , now my husband was probably going to find out,but either ways I wasnt going to bother him (OM) anymore, and would leave him in peace and goodbye , I also told him what I thought about him feeling I was ‘needy and clingy’ ….anyway, an hour later had replies from him that he knew that I ‘loved him’ and he ‘cared immensely for’ me and that we’d be there in each others need but that right now he was going thru some stuff he would tell me about later and so he pretty much said now hes advocating NC but that we’d continue to be there in case the other needed ….i broke my head trying to interpret this for a few days and then realised it doesnt matter, nothing changed except that I was a complete irresponsible idiot again, broke NC , went behind hsubands back , doing it while ostenibly am supposed to be in counsellin and working on my marriage.
I am going to park my personal life for some months. Just focus on the new job and growth prospects. and my child. Husband despite everything deserves more than this from me. I know this behaviour from me is really inexcusable …sorry havent talked to what u said abt ur US trip, will do in my next post, tommorrow is another day !
ragsmom: Everything he said was total bulls$$t. “caring immensely” and “being there for each other” …. all garbage happy-talk. Of course you’re breaking your head trying to figure it out; but it’s nonsense. Of course you can’t figure it out. Hope this bad adventure (and that’s the category it falls into, just a woops; bad adventure) will help you keep NC in the future….. you deserve it, as you figure out what to do about your marriage.
Hi Rags Mom,
I’m sorry that you headed down this root of misadventure and found that “the fire still burns” to quote Nat. It did sound like the classic brush off, but then I guess that is to be expected after all this time, and after you have made it clear you won’t leave your marriage and that he’s made it clear he doesn’t want you to. I understand the pain of missing and/or lost friendships, but you both know that friendship isn’t possible or healthy in this situation.
I think shelving your personal life as in dropping this drama is a good plan, but not shelving your efforts to work on you and your marriage. Rags Mom, what were you feeling/what was happening in your life that triggered you to break NC? Why did you need that validation hit?
I’m boarding my flight soon, feeling OK so far, a bit of airport induced nostalgia but nothing is budging me from that done feeling. I am properly NC and its such a relief to be there in my head.
Hope your week goes well, I’ll try and keep up while I’m away (in the middle of the night while I’m wide awake with jet lag 🙁 ).
Take care
Sofia – you are very right. In some ways letting go of the obsessing/feeling like I was the victim/ appalled at him, is difficult (like I got so used to it being there….) weirdly for the 6 weeks of NC I managed,I was on the way to thinking less about him. Finding this website has been good, but at the same time I find myself reliving some of the things I had put out of my mind all over again. Maybe I hadnt not got over it really? Or as Sofia sai,d maybe I rushed it?
I think a poster – Deepend – talked about this elsewhere, sometimes having pangs or dreams of the person and then feeling bad again….
All very well to not feel the need to explain oneself to them (and I considered that but then decided this week not to – THANKYOU NATALIE for the perfectly timed post – of which I am glad) but what about the feeling constantly popping up within yourself and making you miserable?
do I have to stop reading these posts to stop thinking about it?
ICBIFT – Well, they say resistance is persistence, and the more you fight your feelings and try to forget them, the more power you give them. At the same time, there is a point where telling your story over and over again, getting feedback, spending time on blogs like this one, etc. is no longer cathartic but a kind of wallowing. Sometimes the line between the two is hard to discern.
You need to definitely feel your feelings and process them but the end goal must be to learn from them and LET THEM GO. It’s impossible to forget completely and painful feelings will still arise now and then, but what you can do is visualize putting those feelings in a corner somewhere, out of the way and certainly no longer taking center stage. They may pop up in your mind now and then when triggered by a song or a place, and that’s ok. You don’t hate or fear them – you just gently put them back in place, in an out of the way closet in your mind. Or whatever image works for you. This is a meditative practice that I’ve found very helpful.
I’ll also share something else that everyone should think about. A quote by Emmett Fox that speaks for itself:
“Don’t be a grave robber. Let corpses alone. In due course, nature disposes of such remains if they are left undisturbed. Every time you dig up an old grievance or an old mistake by rehearsing it in your mind, or still worse, by telling someone else about it, you are simply ripping open a grave – and you know what you may expect to find.
Live the present. Prepare intelligently for the future – and let the past alone. This is what Jesus meant when he said, “Let the dead bury their dead.” Make a law for yourself today that you are not going to touch mentally any negative thing that has happened up to the present moment — and keep that law. Life is too precious for grave robbing. The past is past – liquidate it.”
ICan’tBelieveIFoundThis:
How long has it been since it ended? I see you are saying 6 weeks NC. It’s still too early to feel better consistently. You will on and off feel good, then bad, and all over again. Then, as time goes by, the better feeling times will prolong and the bad feeling times will shorten in length. It is a very gradual and circular (with diminishing diameter of the cycling though) process I found.
I too thought several times during the 9-10 months of healing if BR and reading all the posts and reliving each and every time was beneficial or was I messing with my scab by reading and writing and thinking on the same subject daily? It is a very good question. I think during the initial raw stages of post breakup I could not survive without BR and even though I thought I was reliving the events and thoughts, coming here, reading, and posting was like my therapy and having a great supportive community.
Then, in the last couple months, I still come here and read almost daily, although one would think I don’t need it anymore. I extract different information now. Information that pertains to building my life and self-esteem and also the confirmation and a different perspective on what I did wrong in all of my relationships. I can evaluate everything now with clear mind and calmly. I have matured to finally understand what Nat is saying while in the beginning it was mostly emotional support to me only. I was not ready yet to process it on the intellectual basis back then.
So to answer your question: after some time passes by and you feel like you are hurting yourself more than helping yourself by reading posts here and writing, then maybe you need a different approach. If you find that even though you are reliving things while reading here but constructively extracting and using information learned here to help yourself, then, in progress and with time you will rip the benefits. I used to think too: at a certain point, will I stop reading and enough is enough and how much can I invest myself thinking of him, reading the posts, finding similarities in the stories, looking for answers? But eventually, with time, like I described earlier, the reliving stopped gradually. I do have short flashes here and there and some pain too, but it is the remnants of it, it is subdued and BR helps me by not reliving but rather confirming that all the work I have been doing on myself has been for the best for me.
I’ve had this same feeling now I’ve finally got to that done place in my head, that going over old ground is maybe counterproductive. Or actually with me I don’t have the energy to expend or want to waste my time writing about him.
I am staying here though and reading and commenting as 1. I don’t want to get overconfident and backslide and 2. I’ve got very good and pushing down my feelings over the years and pretending all is OK. I don’t want to do this this time, I want to address all my demons and put them to rest.
Colly, Your honesty and commitment to yourself are admirable. You are in process of rediscovering your own strengths and values and most of all your integrity. Congratulations. Wishing you all the best.
Co-sign, Sofia, co-sign. You have expressed the way I think, feel about this very subject… and very eloquently, I might add.
Veracity – thanks for considering my feelings about the “gap” comment from Nina!
To be honest though, he did! I hadn’t had sex in a while and it was physically really really good. I knew he was sexually attracted to be and I took advantage of that too. I felt I had a sexual power over him, which fed my own self esteem (so i though….) and part of me thinks that may have been a part he didn’t like (he got v v drunk one time and got angry at me for how I made him feel, how I used him for sex. Then he walked out and left me in the bar w/o my house keys. Not cool. That was the low point of the relationship and beginning of the end…)
Of course the by-product (the feeling stuck/messed round/manipulated) wasn’t part of my original plan. I wanted to be the girl who didnt care/had no feelings/ could walk away. I had had one-night stands before with no emotional consequences. I guess when this went from a one-off mistake to a longer term thing, I was on dangerous ground.
I know myself better now. I am NOT that girl.
ICantBelieve…You’re welcome. It sounds like this experience has given you lots of insight to who you are and who you aren’t! Lots of lessons in these relationships! I’m starting to look at life as a school of sorts and I’m working at getting the lesson the first time around instead of the 3rd…or 23rd!
So glad you are moving on! The NC does make it much easier to stop obsessing.
So yesterday out of the blue I receive a book in the mail from him. A book about tantric ecstasy. At the same time, there are pictures of him on fb showing him taking a woman and her young son to a Movie and for cupcakes. Really?? And a comment about what a gift he is to our community. Just last week I get a text about his pleasing himself while thinking of me. He is a sexual predator and addict that watches porn. A real gift to our community. It is hard not to want to write him and tell him what I think, but this article does remind me that the drama is just too exhausting and what good does it do. I am still angry with myself and think too often that it isn’t right that he gets away with his behavior, sucking in victim after victim. But then I keep reminding myself that it doesn’t matter…as long as I never let him I. My life again. And the book he sent me yesterday…I lit a match and watched it burn.
Rewind, why are you rewinding your pain by even READING his fb? Unfriend him. You don’t need to know stuff about him; that’s not NC in a way that’s going to help you.
Whether it’s “right” or not that he gets away with it is irrelevant. His actions will yield consequences. What he does is none of your business. The most relevant thing is you taking care of yourself, healing by deleting him off FB and not looking for him on social media, dumping the stupid book he mailed you, and going full NC.
Rewind, Shaking my head over here! The things people do and get away with! Uggh.
“I am still angry with myself and think too often that it isn’t right that he gets away with his behavior, sucking in victim after victim. But then I keep reminding myself that it doesn’t matter…as long as I never let him I. My life again. And the book he sent me yesterday…I lit a match and watched it burn.”
It’s so unjust that people like that can continue to get away with their predatory ways. I’m coming to the realization that, unfortunately, the world isn’t as just as I once believed…wrongdoers sometimes do get away with it and bad things do happen to good people. It’s understandable that you feel angry about it happening to you and that he continues to push you…to get a reaction. Please be compassionate with yourself;you were/are a victim of a predator.
I don’t know about you, but when things like this happen to me I feel helpless. Helpless to stop them. Your actions…setting and maintaining your boundaries-keeping him out of your life-is taking away his power as a predator in your life.
Have you considered removing the fb connections so you don’t have to have that in your face?
Can’t blame ya if you wanted to clobber him with that book…or worse! Hope burning the book helped! Veracity
Rewind, I cannot understand why you still give the time of day to this…I hate to call him a ‘man’ as it is so insulting to men…sick dicko. In a previous comment a week or so ago I responded to a comment you made – you said that you receiving an unsolicited text message from him that described how he was “playing with his big dick and thinking about you”. You said that it caused you pain to read this and that it disgusted you. Let’s not beat about the bush here – do you get something from letting this prick disgust you, does this feel like some sort of validation when you receive and read this toad’s disrespectful, stinking of self entitlement, invasive, disgusting text messages? Have you ever thought about blocking this dick head’s number, ceasing effbook check ups and treating yourself with some care and respect?
And you could return to sender, unopened, anything he posts to you because it’s not like he’s going to be sending you some sort of gift that proves he is someone he isn’t. You know what to expect from this…person.
I don’t understand either. I unfriended him once a year ago, but then was too nosy and friended him back. My mentality right now is that I want him to see my page and that I am moving on. But I reality, I am having trouble moving on because I am still seeking validation that I have worth. Instead, I continue to get creepy crumbs from him while he continues to hunt for unaware women. I have never ever had such a hard time cutting someone out of my life as I have with him and I don’t know why. I haven’t seen him since October, which is huge. I am gaining. Working every day on loving me!
Used, if at least you are moving forward slowly (ie not actually seeing him now or making contact?)and not going backwards that is definitely something. A predator is a dangerous person and I wish you would do more to protect yourself emotionally from him. I don’t think you will walk away without some emotional fallout if you continue to passively accept his behaviour.
Also, a more general feeling that your post triggered for me. It really pulls me up how unsolicited (s)ext messaging seems to be culturally acceptable (or at least not completely unacceptable) behaviour these days. Sexual predators like the one you know have free and sanctioned reign. It doesn’t arouse ‘that is completely unacceptable you need to to be slapped in the face’ response. It’s like we women have been sucked into some sort of mass lowering of acceptable standards. And I think the ‘slap in the face’ response can be achieved by blocking someone’s number, and in the case of snail mail returning the disrespectful, at arms length sexual harassment to sender.
Used, Wanted to add that I hope you will try to discover the whys of this situation for yourself too. Like all of us, it will be something to do with patterns you have developed from long ago and then reinforced over the years. This could be a life changing time for you – clearly your difficulty in letting go of this situation speaks to something very embedded in you and although painful, you will benefit from exploring and becoming aware of what is going on.
So sorry, have mixed up posters again! Comments above are meant to be addressed to Rewind!
“My mentality right now is that I want him to see my page and that I am moving on.”
Rewind, you know, my favorite cousin said something to me very similar to this a long while back. She said, “I want him in my life long enough for him to ‘see me make it'”. Even though we were in our very early twenties at the time, and I had been quite naïve and inexperienced, I told her that that would not end well and she should drop him NOW.
Fast forward… she ended up married to him. They have two children together, 11 and 8. In a ten-year span of time, they have divorced and he has gone out of his way numerous times to ruin her life. Most recently, he remarried and attempted to get back with my cousin while his now-wife was pregnant. Also, he managed to get her fired from a good job (he worked there, too, and that is where they met… btw, he continues to work there to this day). He has managed to get her removed from other employment, too. While they were together, he purchased a family home and refused to add her name to the papers even though she was paying the mortgage. She has had to move her children from house to house numerous times. He has thrown bricks through her car windows. He has sabotaged several other jobs over the years. He has spread rumors about her to their children and other family members. He treats their children like trash when they visit him on the weekends just to spite her. His son actually says he hates his father. And that is all I can think of off the top of my head.
Now, she regrets having maintained this man at all, almost as much as she loves their children.
We cannot know the consequences of staying with someone, or accepting crumbs from someone, who does not want to be with us, but we can take examples from others lives – like this one.
As for me, I am human and fallible, of course, and very recently, with my BR knowledge and growing self-esteem in tow, I trusted myself enough to make the decision to cut a man I was seeing out of my life. I realized he was future-faking me, drip-feeding me information, and keeping a toehold in my life so long as he could benefit from the fringe benefits. He was feigning, or at least over-estimating, his interest. He liked me, maybe, but just not quite enough to do more… He put in very little – even less than when we first started seeing each other, and I decided that six months had been too long and that it was time for him to go.
If I weren’t validating myself, I might have stayed longer… In fact, I know I would have, based entirely on historical data.
It takes work, and becomes easier when you put your energies into yourself (which was hard for me because I realized I didn’t really like me too much). But I eventually came to the understanding that even though I didn’t really like me, I was *all* I had. And I didn’t want to be completely miserable my whole life, so I knew I had to do something about it.
As a dreamer, I used to find myself ascribing great qualities to men, who did not have those qualities, by daydreaming fantasies to sappy love songs… so, one of the first things I did was to dedicate all love songs to myself – you know, the woman who cooks and cleans for me and goes to work every single day to provide for me… it takes more than this, of course, but it certainly helped me to focus my lens on myself.
Hope this helps.
Yuk, creepy. This reminds me of a guy I knew years ago (not an ex conquest btw) that used to like to tell people all about his tantric sex practices and being able to orgasm many times in one session without ejaculating. A friend of mine once had to give him a ride to a meeting and during the journey he put his hand on hers (as she shifted gears), and said to her “I can smell when a woman is turned on.” Creepy. I wonder if this is the same guy?
Return to sender and defriend Rewind.
Rewind, I was going to say! If you had not lit a match to the book (that was inside a sealed package), I would have advised stamping the entire thing “Return to Sender”… Delete any of his texts upon arrival to your phone (the one you received are the most annoying – not to mention the most ridiculous – considering the lack of privacy, in my opinion). Make a concerted effort to avoid his Facebook – just don’t engage.
No Contact.
Thanks Reversal.
Love this post. Thanks for sharing! It’s all about boundaries and knowing where you start and stop and where others begin. If others can’t take responsibility for their own Inner Yards, then they are going to be no end of trouble and heartache. There is no reasoning with someone who can never see how they’re the least bit wrong. That’s where we must remind ourselves of the Polish saying “not my circus; not my monkeys” and walk away without looking back.
Thanks for your responses. I am feeling sad and anxious today, but the good thing about “having said too much” is that I know my breakdown on Friday has led MM to a place where he is unlikely to be in touch. What i said was pretty horrible (but horribly true) and though I retracted and apologized, he knows it’s true (that he’s been a shit). I have been a shit too, so I feel like reaching out to tell him again and again to say that I recognize my role as well, etc etc. But enough has been said.
@rags mom, very sorry to hear what happened. The indifference from breaking NC can be so so sad. I feel for ya! Yours is a good reminder to me that while I may want to reach out, it would likely end in coldness and indifference now and seriously.. What is the point?? Yes, I wish this guy could validate my feelings for the rest of his life, but he’s not in a position to do so. And he’s an ass. Moving on is all I really want now. The rest is just delusion and addiction. It’s crazy making!
I can’t imagine what’s running thru your guys head. It sounds like he wanted to stay NC with you but then sorta got sucked back into the old feelings. Be careful! If you’re the unavailable one in the set, you could be getting into heartbreak territory with him if you stay in contact (thinking of myself on the receiving end of this push and pull before). I think you should ask yourself what you hope to achieve by further contact and then be grateful for what you’ve got here. You want to know he still cares? Check, he clearly does. You want to push it to find out how much at the expensive of his feelings? No, I doubt it. You want to leave your marriage to be with him? Doesn’t sound like it. I would say assess what you are looking for before re-engaging! You may already have it.
Not sure about my long distance online relationship. We have been talking on the phone every week for over 2 months now. We haven’t met yet (have been sending photos occasionally) and I’m finding that we aren’t really moving forward. I would like to visit him, but don’t want to be the one to bring it up, we mentioned it once in the first few calls, but not since then.
I’m having great conversations with him, we seem to be friends which is a great place to start, but it hasn’t moved from that. I told him before Xmas that I’m getting the friends vibe from him and he said he wants more, yet he doesn’t seem to be forth coming in moving us forward.
For example, he doesn’t set up the next time to talk at the end of our conversations, I have asked a few times. When I said nothing we ended the call with no future phone dates, then about 3 to 5 days later, he would email to arrange another time to talk.
I have never had a long distance online relationship (if I can call it that) before. If I were dating him in my city, we would have been romantic by now, but over the phone??? I’d appreciate some tips on this matter? Has anyone done online long distance? What is it supposed to look like?
whatever, my spidey senses say You Have Dialled A Wrong Number with this one.
Online/long distance without meeting is a fantasy relationship. It really suits people who are basically commitmentphobes/have contact and intimacy issues.
If you haven’t actually MET in real life, you aren’t friends.
And the sooner you meet, the sooner you find out about the things that internet/phone can’t tell you:
– bad breath
– chewing with mouth open
– reflective habit of nose-picking
– constant fidgeting
– body odour
– nose and ear hair
OK, so that’s pretty crude, but I was in a very hot romance for several months with a man I’d never actually met in real life. Turned out the photos he sent were quite some years old. Turned out he featured in the list above in quite a few ways. He also gave way to road rage, and talked about his ex-girlfriend to me the whole time we actually were together in the real world. Oh MAN, did I feel stupid after all the intimate things I’d told him about myself when we were complete strangers to each other.
He is holding back because HE DOESN’T WANT TO MEET YOU. A guy who was really into you would be on the first bus out there, or the first plane. How far away is he? Oh dear, he’s not Nigerian with a very sick sister, is he?
Ethelreda, Veracity,
Thanks for your comments.
No, he lives 2 hours away by plane, so not that far away, but far enough to be a fantasy. And the climate is warmer where he is, so I was hoping to get away for a weekend to visit and ride with him on his motorcycle.
It was his birthday last week and I called him, haven’t heard back yet. One thing that upset me was that he didn’t bother to pick up the phone to call me on New Years Day, he emailed the day before, but no phone call and I let him know I was in town, so I felt he didn’t go the extra mile there. I emailed him back on the 2nd or 3rd and said, I thought we would have spoken over the holidays. Yes, I was away for part of it, but I was home on the 1st. Then he left me a phone message saying that he was touched that I wanted to speak over the holidays. Ok, that’s kind of how it goes, every time I try to move things forward. he’s touched, but doesn’t do much on his end.
May I add one other possibility to the list of excellent points raised below by other contributors, Whatever?
He is married, or with another woman on a more long-term basis. THAT’S where he was at New Year, and THAT’S why he’s not urging you to visit and ride on his motorbike with him.
It might raise some awkward questions, especially if it turns out the motorbike isn’t actually his, and/or he can’t actually ride one, and/or the wife and kids might have a prior claim on his time on the weekend.
Internet dating is sadly awash with married/partnered guys who are playing games to pass the time. It’s all just an online game to them, like Call of Duty or something.
Worse, I met a guy online once who was actually competing with male friends to pick up lonely women, and who was giving his buddies a running commentary via email on our conversations. Thankfully he accidentally included me in one of these group emails a few days after we’d met, so I hadn’t SHARED anything, thank goodness. It was incredibly unflattering – apparently I was a ‘sad bitch’ …
So do be careful with your imaginary friend. Learn from my mistakes, as well as your own!
Whatever, I had a relationship like that on and off for several years. For 6 years in fact. It started out as colleagues (we are in different cities about 3 hours away by plane) and then we became “closer” meaning that I built castles in the sky and added so much value to his half, or rather quarter-level interest. What you describe about him and your “relationship” reminds me about the “relationship” I thought I had. Before I found BR and until really just recently I used to think he maybe was the One (while the guy who brought me here was never the One. I knew it from the beginning actually. Felt it in my guts he was wrong for me). Any way, first of all the concept “the One” is not right with me anymore, but it’s a different subject. So that long-distance relationship guy was exactly like yours. Never scheduled the calls. Always spontaneous. I actually did make a trip to his city. We met and spent great 3 days together. He didn’t feel like a stranger at all. He was feeling physically new to me, but everything else was the same as I had thought through our phone conversations and e-mails. However, his words never matched his actions. He had no actions. I was the one who was propelling that “relationship” forward as I thought. Long story short. Once I stopped contacting him, he never did. He dropped out of the view. 6 years of it and all is gone. I think I grieved this loss last year as well. Recognized all the mistakes I made. This is chasing an illusion. It is not a real relationship and never will be unless both are willing to make it work and be together. I recognize me in you by trying, initiating, expecting more from him. Take my word for it. 6 years – the closest emotional connection I thought I had ever had with anyone. He could read my thoughts and say what I was going to say before I even said it. We had the most amazing sex and conversations. Of course these things alone made me think back then he was the One. My thinking was so flawed!! I started planning reuniting with him in his city or mine and moving in. He at first was enthusiastic but then slowly retreated. I felt the coldness and we stopped talking. I did e-mail him 4 months ago. Just to say hi because I really missed him. I was not looking for validation at that point. He was enthusiastic to answer almost immediately but didn’t maintain. Disappeared again. After saying he loves me and always will (has a girlfriend by the way). That was my last time contacting him. Now I see him for who he was. Not blaming him or anything. We all mess up, don’t we? But just it’s easier now to let go because I see him and the “relationship” and my wrong doings in its stark and naked truthful beauty.
Don’t waste your time, whatever. You deserve a real relationship with a real, caring man. I have been there and now, I can’t believe how naive I was. How unavailable myself and naive to create such a story in my head. While the guy just had his ego stroked and enjoyed some entertainment while bored at work. Unbelievable what a fool I used to be.
Don’t waste your time! Walk away while it’s early enough.
Sophia,
Thank you so much for your story and the lessons learned. I can see this exact story unfold for me if I pursue this man. I still haven’t heard back from him via email and if I do, I can’t imagine what excuse he will come up with.
Did you get some kind of closure? A conversation about what your so called relationship was all about for him? Did he have a girlfriend the entore time ou were talking with him?
I want some kind of closure, we have been talking and getting to know each other on a deep level and to just have it end like this doesn’t feel good. Yes, I am feeling played for sure, and I will bring that up, but I don’t want to create a scene.
He’s a fricken marriage counsellor, you think he would behave better!! Or at least want to end things appropriately and truthfully.
Anyways, I do feel like I want to create an exit email as closure for myself. I deserve closure so that I can properly let this go. So that when I click send, I will let it go and not think about it anymore.
Whatever, “closure” is a vague and highly over-rated concept that so many of us have bought into, in order to somehow lessen the pain, or explain the asinine behavior, or help us move on.
I don’t believe there is possible closure with another person. There is, however,closure in yourself, that you have done everything you can to be your best self, and that you have retained your principles, and that he has not stepped up to the plate. If we wait for “closure” with, or from, another person, that means we are still giving away our power, and our chance for recovery.
Have you thought about writing a letter that you will never send? That you will read aloud to a friend, maybe, and then burn?
Nina
Thank you, you are so right!
He’s a fricken marriage counsellor,
Well, he SAYS he’s a marriage counsellor.
What that might really mean is any of the following:
*’I am unhappily married and have prolonged flirtations on the internet with single women’.
* ‘I am single and have prolonged flirtations on the internet with unhappily married women’.
* ‘I am running a whole harem of women who come to me for advice, which I love, because it gives me a sense of control without having any commitment’.
* ‘I read Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus once back in the 90s, but that was mostly to pick up chicks.’
* ‘I was divorced by my angry wife after years of infidelity, and now spend a lot of time riding round on my motorbike and in bars, telling male acquaintances not to get married.’
(I am so mean. I am not nearly as cynical as this in real life, you know … or maybe I am …)
Ethelreda,
Hilarious!!
Whatever,
I never got any closure. He just disappeared. Actually: once I disappeared I realized I was all alone in this fantasy long-distance “relationship.” I got to know him back in September 2007, so actually I have known him for over 7 years now. I got the number of years wrong, which doesn’t matter anyway. It could have lasted for 17+ more years if I continued investing and he continued responding because it is nice I guess when someone is into you and the guy is too polite I guess to just go NC. I never figured it out.
At first we chatted as colleagues and friends. Gradually in two years we became closer and feel I developed a really close emotional connection to him. I could talk about anything to him. I had never felt so close to any man and still can say I never have to this point. We talked about every issue possible, we shared common interests, sense of humor, intelligence level, AND even shared values too, now that I know what values are.
At the point when I became really close to him around 2010-2011, he had just broken up with his girlfriend. He had a son with her. So he was single. I was single and my imagination went wild. We become even closer and more intimate in our communication and phone conversations. Then he told me he was dating someone. I started dating someone too. So we shared the stories of our dating/sleeping with other people. Not in detail, but as friends. It was confusing at that point I guess because even though I was dating others, I felt I was waiting for him. To go there or for him to visit me and potentially be with me. I was unavailable though back then as I see. I invested myself into him so much although there was no clear possibility of anything happening. He could not move because of his son (one of the reasons anyway). I could not move because my daughter has to see her dad regularly. However, all these conversations were initiated by me only. While I was planning and picturing our future together, he was living his life. And dating a woman, with whom he knew nothing would work out. He confessed openly to me that he knew all along that it wouldn’t work out. They broke up in 2013 and then I firmly decided I am going to visit him because I was about to break off my relationship with the guy who brought me to BR. I just started dating him and he exhibited all kinds of red flags. Not committed, not calling me his girlfriend after 3 months together. I was just over with him and decided to visit my long-distance friend. We had a great weekend together, 3 days in all, and he was excited afterwards and we were planning for few days how to proceed. While the guy whom I was dating blew so hot that I thought he really loved me. Doubts overtook me that this long-distance guy had always been wishy-washy and here is this guy who really calls me his girlfriend now and loves and will never leave me. I chose the guy who brought me eventually here…. however, if I had chosen the long-distance guy, I doubt anything would have happened. The long-distance guy never took any action. In fact he blew hot too because he knew the other guy was about to blow hot too. We were ALL UNAVAILABLE AND MESSED UP.
So we exchanged few e-mails and phone conversations throughout 2013 (initiated mostly by me as usual) and then in the beginning 2014 the ex broke up with me and this guy disappeared as well. They both evaporated from my life. Speedily. I initiated the contact with the long-distance guy in April last year and then in September. He always sounded very eager to talk to me. Like he missed me. Told me he loved me and will always love me. But he is just a man he said. And makes his mistakes. He did fall for me, he said, but at some point he made a decision not to pursue. But I will always love you and we have status quo. My feelings won’t change for you. How is that for the closure? He has been with a girlfriend for over a year now ( I guess still together). Haven’t talked to him since September.
A lot of things changed for me. I don’t need a closure anymore. From anyone.
If it helps you, write an e-mail. Explain your feelings why are you moving on. I did too to the long-distance friend, but it never helped me. He came back saying he cared for me and loved me and I felt feelings for him again and again, no closure. The problem is that I needed closure and answers back then but could never get any. Because there are none. Now I don’t need any answers or closure. I will never get why and how exactly someone’s mind and soul operate. And that’s fine. Just let it go and move on.
Do what works for you, whatever. What helps you meanwhile, will work for now. Time and clarity will help you later.
I do have to add that I grieved and maybe still grieving the loss of the communication with the long-distance guy. I felt like I lost a friendship. Most of the things we talked about were what very close friends talk about. We were on the same wavelength all the time, if you know what I mean. I didn’t have that kind of relationship with the ex or anyone else. So I took it really hard the realization that that’s it. That even friendship can’t work now maybe because we tried to make it a relationship ( I tried) and it didn’t work and got all complicated and messy. But who knows. I do miss him sometimes, but it’s ok. I hope he is doing well and happy. I felt like I lost a friend and I never felt like that after any of my breakups. Even after my divorce.
But then… maybe I came up with it in my head. Because it was long-distance and “safe” I became “available” and so connected? It’s too confusing. When I was seeing him in person I couldn’t stop talking to him and spending time with him. We clicked again and again on so many levels. The same values as well. Family, raising kids, education for us and kids, faith, how to spend time together, what matters, what doesn’t matter, those kinds of things. We discussed it all … But then, what does it matter if no actions followed. I was willing to work on things to move, to start living together. He hadn’t made a step to do anything. No action. I see it so clearly only now… It’s pathetic that I was swimming in that ocean of disillusionment.
So that’s another thing: don’t let it prolong. It will hurt much worse the more time goes by. The more connection you build, real or imagined, and the more you get invested.
It is hard when you feel close to someone. Strange, when I was dating the most recent ex or other people in the last 7 years, he – the long-distance guy, always remained my closest friend and I always felt like I wish I could date him instead of all these people. I guess that was a sign of my unavailability? I don’t know. I felt I was ready to connect my life with him and build a family life, a marriage . . . But I guess I got it wrong. I am not figuring it out anymore. That’s my closure.
Sophia,
So sorry you had to go through that…and it’s nice to have had that experience of clicking so well with a guy. I know I had that with my ex (who lives here). He just recently tried to contact me again, in fact, last week he sent me an email after a year and a half.
I am choosing to ignore it even though I missed him for so long. I just recently got over him, and this LD guy helped and so did a guy I dated for a month in September. I do not want to risk getting all tangled up with him emotionally again. So, NC it has to be.
I also know what you mean and others here said closure is trying to re-open it, I know this from past experiences. I will write the letter to myself and so if that clears me.
No need for BS, I am way too awesome to be wasting my precious energy on flaky guys!! You are too!…to quote Terri Clark I have better things to do like wash my car in the rain!
Whatever,
You were NC with your ex and he reappeared by e-mail a year and a half later?
I understand it takes a long time to get over someone with whom you had a connection. Like I said, with the LD guy I had the best connection and fun and communication than in any of my relationships. He told me many times that if he lived nearby there would be no doubt we would be together. Back then I believed him. Anyway, it doesn’t matter now. I am BR trained enough now to know that words are words. Show me the actions. Serious actions besides sending an e-mail or even making a call (wow, a real hero then).
Amazing though how they do reappear when you are completely over them. Or almost over.
Take care of yourself and continue living your full and content life.
Your story about LD “relationship” touched me and I wrote a lot about my experience. Hopefully it was helpful. I really invested way too much into that guy. At more than one point I was confident (not even that long time ago) that he was someone special and we could work it out.
Now I am in a different place. All these people in my past are my past. I learned from the experiences and have moved on. Doesn’t mean I never get sad or nostalgic or even blame myself for the things I did, but now I am much more gentle on myself, I forgive myself as well as them. Yes, thoughts and feelings come up, but I manage them and keep focusing on me and living my life.
whatever, Pay attention to your gut. His actions and words are not matching up. Huge red flag. He is keeping you at a distance because he likes the distance. If he really wanted to move forward past the friends stage, he would. He says he does, but his actions say otherwise.
You deserve someone who wants the same things as you. By his actions he is letting you know that he doesn’t want the same thing. I’d move on…I certainly would not go visit him.
I’ve attached a link that helps me stay out of fantasy land when I’m trying to discern if I’m buying into things I should be running from. Hope this helps. Veracity
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/30-signs-that-someone-isnt-interested-or-is-half-heartedly-interested-in-you-how-to-avoid-being-a-passing-time-candidate/
Veracity
Thanks for the reminder, read the article, and he would gain admission into this club!
You’re welcome! Better to find out now before you invest any more energy.
Yes, and you would save few hundred bucks for a flight and a hotel and hurt emotions!
Yeah, Whatever. He is not that into you. It concerns me that you put the tag of “relationship” on these conversations. They are just phone conversations. Which are obviously filling up some lonely spots in your life, so you’ve decided to call it a very early stage “relationship”.
He’s playing you like a fish….gives you just enough line to keep you hooked, but he doesn’t really want to catch you. You view his phone calls as genuine interest in you because that is what your ego wants. Not putting you down – we ALL want that. We just have to be careful and learn to recognize REAL interest as opposed to putting so much value on half-hearted interest.
I’m willing to bet he is just collecting emotional conquests, like trophies.
Oh Elgie, I wish I had BR handy back then. I would have not wasted so much time on the LD relationship with the guy. Funny how one guy brings me to BR, but as I am healing, I am healing over the past mistakes as well.
Another thing the LD guys are good at is keeping several women at bay. Not for sex necessarily but I am not sure for what? Acting like a counselor and being such a great guy knowledgeable about women and giving them advice and listening to their stories about bad guys doing damage to them. Ethelreda gave a great list to different types of scenarios what LD guys think/do.
Whatever, if it helps, one time he told me that he never breaks up or lets go completely. He always lets the woman back in for a conversation. He lets her go easily, he said. He thinks he is helping women. While all he does is confusing them by being receptive, never going NC, always being kind of semi-there, lurking. So no wonder, he has lots of women he is talking to. Some are his exes.
These guys seem so nice and kind to women who don’t know yet with whom they are dealing. And these guys don’t do it intentionally. I don’t think so. It’s just who they are. But it turns out very destructive to another party.
Stay away, whatever. That’s our mutual advice.
Whatever, I think online long distance looks like… nothing at all. And that seems to be what you are reporting. Talking once a week is not dating, will never be dating. He doesnt set up the next talk time either 🙁 I’m sorry, this is not anything real [added bonus – it sounds boring, is it boring?].
Suki,
No, it’s not boring at all, we have a lot in common, same world view, work in same industry, this is why I was excited about it. However, he isn’t showing me that he is really into me in terms of a romantic relationship, even though he claims he is, there is attraction and I’m sure if we ever met, he would be, but he’s not pushing for that and I don’t feel it’s my place to push for it either. I guess that does look like nothing at all. Too bad, I feel like we have so much in common and so much to talk about. I would like to have him as a friend, but am not sure that’s going to happen either. he is 12 years older than me, so I’m not crazy about that fact, but he’s been great talk to as a friend.
I’m sure if we ever met, he would be, but he’s not pushing for that
That’s a very telling contradiction in terms, right there.
Whatever, men are wonderful creatures. When they are into a woman, they will climb over mountains, broken glass, wives, boyfriends, husbands, and restraining orders to get to the woman they want.
They will arrive unexpectedly, they will follow you down the street, they will stare at you in a bar, they will pester you for your phone number, and they will stalk you and go through your garbage if they have to.
I have seen men who I would have written off as completely passive and ‘shy’ turn into panthers when the woman they REALLY wanted crossed their path.
If your man is available and into you, he would be THERE, right now.
So either he’s not into you, or he’s not available. Either way, you need to untangle yourself from the daydream (which is all it is, after all).
Don’t have it out with him with big speeches, or else he may just turn up because you’ve put pressure on him, which is the worst possible way to meet someone. Just untangle yourself and ease away.
Ethelreda,
yes, yes, so they say that a guy will do anything if he wants you…at least initially. I was watching for that and I didn’t see it. Read what I said to Sophia.
I want to untangle myself and I feel that a polite and honest email telling him that I am withdrawing from the friendship as I do not see it moving forward into anything more.
Part of me would like to remain friends, but I don’t think I will be able to as I have already built up some resentment towards him. There would need to be some clearing, which he says he’s an expert at…expert BSer
Thanks for reminding me of what it feels like when a guy is truly into you!
Whatever, if you really want to move on, do not send a “polite but honest” email. If you are honest about your motives for that email, you will see you are hoping he protests and fights to keep you hanging on in some way…right? Just let go.
Elgie, exactly!
That was my intention behind “honest and polite e-mail.” I was trying to see if he holds on to me and our friendship, seeing I am pulling away and saying goodbye. You have to be honest with yourself about why you need to send him that letter. By the way, writing letters to myself never helped me. That’s individual I guess.
I reread what I wrote yesterday about the long-distance guy and another revelation I would like to add: Why did I ever think our friendship was so great? What friendship? Friendship, a true close friendship, is built on equal terms. Ours was not. It was me overinvesting and he, to quote Ethelreda:
“* ‘I am running a whole harem of women who come to me for advice, which I love, because it gives me a sense of control without having any commitment’.”
He was VERY GOOD at listening and giving advice to women. And he had a lot of women from the past and at work running to him for an advice. Did I pay attention? No. Ignored.
Lessons learned again and again.
Thanks Elgie,
You are right about that, experienced it in the past, and actually that’s why I didn’t write anything yet, I don’t want him to suck me back in because I’m pulling out! He kind of did that when I was upset and didn’t respond to his email, he emailed me about 5 in a row (out of character for him). So, then I knew he was tuned into me. Maybe he’s upset now and that’s why I’m not hearing from him, well, I won;t play into the game. I will only send the exit email if I get an email from him, or maybe not, but not otherwise.
I’m not saying, mind you, that all these male behaviours are necessarily a GOOD thing, but it’s just that they do happen!
I suppose in one sense you feel safer when a man is not future-faking and not pushing you into things you aren’t ready for. But on the other hand, you really don’t sound as if you both have your feet in the magic circle.
And sadly a lot of guys love ambivalent relationships, and won’t push it because they’re getting all that they want out of the current situation. And when you raise this with them, you’re called the ‘clingy’ ‘neurotic’ ‘smothering’ woman.
I think your exit strategy sounds good. Be ready for NC, though, or else you may end up having long awful discussions via email, usually late at night, which is bad for everyone involved.
“Yes, I wish this guy could validate my feelings for the rest of his life, but he’s not in a position to do so.”
No one, no man, no woman, no child or even domestic cat is, was or ever will be in a position to validate you for the rest of their lives Leanne. The only person in “a position to do so” is you.
Wait! Not a cat?? What??
Haha, I think that was sort of a joke – but only to me I guess, an in-house. I stuck it in there without thinking or pausing to understand why. Now I do think about it, my cat, and I believe many cats in general, are supreme in validating themselves. They’re right into their self care (cleaning, finding comfortable places to sleep and so on),and seemingly very self trusting and self respecting. Of course some cats take that too far – the ones that appear to only ever ‘use’ their owners for food or to sit on – I guess they could be seen as a bit psychopathic/narcy if attributed human characteristics. On that note, a slavish and loyal dog in the animal analogy might be described being quite driven to give lifelong validation to its owner, sadly in some cases no matter how it is treated by the owner.
Anyway.. maybe a point that emerges here is that neither a healthy self validating person (symbolised by cat)or an unhealthy people pleaser (symbolised by slavish, loyal dog that licks the hand who mistreats it) will be able to validate someone who has not learnt to care for, trust and respect themselves.
I wish I had found this site months ago before I ended up with classic mr unavailable for five months. I tried to walk away 4 times and he kept coming back. Last week I was arranging to go round to his to pick up my things and to try and end things once and for all thinking that perhaps if I spoke to him face to face he might leave me alone. All along he said he just wasn’t ready for a relationship after his marriage,he was a mess and could feel nothing for anyone, but he really liked and respected me etc. Last week we had a similar conversation. A few days later he sent me a text saying he was seeing someone and much as it really pained him due to the amazing sex we had he thought it best to leave seeing me at the moment, like I’m some kind of service. Luckily I was with a friend who told me not to reply and block him which I have done. I’ve spent ages constructing replies to point out how upset I am but then read some of your articles and thought no I’m not wasting time and more emotional energy on someone like that. Whether he realises or not doesn’t matter. I felt he wasn’t going to let me go until he had the upper hand due to his massive control issues. I’m determined to apply no contact as I suspect if all goes wrong I’ll be his first port of call and I don’t want to let him anywhere near me again. The tone of his last message gave me the creeps, like I saw for the first time what he was really like without all the charm and humour masking the person he really is. It hurts though – wow I’ve learned so much about myself and can see now he wasn’t a good person, I was attracted to all the wrong things! I will never let anyone treat me that way again.
YAY, Beckee! You are a quick-study, aren’t you! He was definitely trying to crush you with goodbye. And he WILL be back, because he will need to check in to make sure he did crush you. There’s a “can’t we still be friends” moment looming with him. He’s a jerk.
Thanks for that, he did try the being friends line a few times when I kept walking away. If he comes back he will be met with a wall of silence. It’s a shame that in the middle of it all I met a really lovely guy but because I was so busy chasing mr unavailable I couldn’t see what I had in front of me and have lost him – he’s given me that clear message and quite right of him really. When mr unavailable realised I was seeing someone he labelled him as mr boring, questioned my judgement and laughed at my attempt. While I could see it was just jealousy it did undermine my confidence that I was making the right decision. Yes total jerk and not the sort of person I want back in my life now I can see him for who he was.
Beckee, good for you for putting up the walls! He really reeks of “narc.”
Yup he came back 6 days later going on about whether I had put a spell on him because he had ended up in hospital for a week. When I didn’t reply he sent more messages. So I replied asking why he was contacting me when he was in a relationship and made a choice to do that so should stay away and he did come back and say I was right in what I said, he was sorry and he wouldn’t contact me again. He may of course in the future!
Hi Colly, Leanne , Nina …
thanks for your replies , they really helped.
Will not contact him , and if I ever decide to again, will have to formally go through a break of my marriage , Divorce, custody the works before I ‘allow’ myself to contact him again – all with the knowledge that if I do go thru all that, nothings going to change the fact that he lives in America, is 27 years old, and doesnt care / moved on months and months ago to women who arent ‘clingy/needy/whiney/obsessive’ with him ….so thats that. if he contacts again, will cross that bridge, dont think its a risk at the momement.
also I interpreted his sudden replies after I said goodbye last week, to him basically saying lets stay NC …but will be there for you ‘as a friend’ if you contact me again as a divorced woman…but that he didnt say that straight out as it would be inciting me to D ….
Anyway, thats probably me putting my spin on him maybe actually meaning ‘ im saying im busy cos God I’m sick of you, please disappear’
I feel numb which is good compared to feeling things ….
@rags mom, please don’t berate yourself or talk negatively about OM’s feelings towards you. It is clear from the outside that he cares, but it sounds like you are in the habit of self-depricating talk which skews things and adds to the crazy. Don’t do that to yourself! Change your language.. you are clearly a nice and thoughtful person. He obviously cares about you. Whether it’s enough to want to be with you, who knows? It definitely sounds like he’s got reservations, but they could be more to do with the whole situation than who you are as a person. Reign in the negative self-talk and thoughts (have you ever done any CBT work for this?? you really should! I say as an ex-self-depricater.. it is a way better way to live!).
Regardless of what OM wants you can only go down the route of firing things up if you have a clear sense of what you want. That doesn’t mean you need to jump ship with your hubby, but I would definitely take a long look at what you want (not just the morality of staying vs. leaving, but what you really want) before you make any changes and/or get back in contact with this guy. For his sake and yours.
It sounds like OM could potentially be intersted in dating if you happened to be single at some point, but whether that would work out as a relationship is totally unclear. Who knows how it would go or if he’d want to be together in the long run? No one! It is clear that he doesn’t want to be the cause of your marriage breakdown. and that is a good thing.
I had a friend in a similar situation once and she ended her marriage to be with the other guy. after a lot of on and off again, it didn’t work out and she went through a long period of feeling sad and wishing she hadn’t broke up her marriage and trying to repair it. But eventually, she healed and was on her own. And she is fine!! but then there are others who have done similar things and regretted it. again, you need to look at your life and what you want and would be okay with.
Every story and every person’s needs are different, but you have to be okay with being on your own if you want to leave your marriage. it is a very likely outcome if you were to leave and pursue relationship with OM. I read that in these scenarios, there is about a 10% chance that the relationship actually works out. And that’s when both parties really want it! Also you would be dealing with grief and big life changes.. all of which are not fair to dump on another person and would strain the relationship. You would need to get very single and very healthy before you could pursue this with a hope that it would work out. and I’m not sure you’re prepared to right now (or even wanting to?)
That’s not meant to scare you to stay in your relationship, but just to take a look at the likely outcomes. If you really want to pursue something with this other guy, then you need to be sure that you can walk away from your marriage for real and be on your own regardless of where things end up with him. It’s tough!! and I totally feel for you! But on the other side of this scenario (as you can see from my posts), it is crazy-making anxiety, etc. for the one on the line. Not fair to him if you know it’s not what you want. Hope that helps slightly.
Bad advice, Leanne. This guy does NOT care about ragsmom, and he is NEVER going to be there for her, EVER. He has made that abundantly crystal clear (100%) by what he has said and done.
ragsmom, I’ve stayed out of this one, because I hate it when I see a marriage going to pieces. You and your marriage and your future decisions are what are important right now. They need all your energy, so that you can keep your head clear and your powder dry.
Divorce is awful, no matter how it happens and how civilised you try to be. You can literally lose everything – house, money, family, the works.
ragsmom, you need to keep a very level head right now to make sure that IF you decide to walk away from this marriage, you do so with some self-respect and some financial stability.
You simply DO NOT HAVE TIME for any distractions, especially not losers like this pretend boyfriend who has very clearly moved on to a new (and possibly wealthier and younger) target now.
Ragsmom, I have sympathy for your pain because I know it stems from a dark place of low self regard, that you tend towards feeling unlovable and not good enough. It is painful context in which to live.
I have to say this though, that as you are a married woman, this OM who you were secretly emotionally involved with for a time, is only doing what this site and most commentators here encourage OWs to do to avoid a world of pain and ethical compromise,disrespect and deception.
You need to reign your focus back to your own pain and marriage and emotional landscape. Colly had a really good question up thread where she asks if you have an idea about what it was that pushed or triggered you to break NC with him.
p.s. Just to be clear, your marriage and the problems you encounter there, along with your self esteem, are the places to put your energy – whether you end up wanting to work on and stay in your marriage or realise you want to divorce – this young American with whom you had an emotional affair (long distance and on line too wasn’t it?) acts as a distraction from yourself. I understand fully the very strong lure here – you so want to delay the moment when you have to look at yourself. Possibly the trigger to breaking NC here was because you were getting close to this moment. Do you remember, Ragsmom, a post you write for Colly not long ago when you insightfully suggested this very thing – that her worries over her obsession with the exMM were distracting her from herself? Please know that there is support here for you. I remember reading that you have attended some counselling with Hubby, but wonder if you have considered finding someone to start some serious therapy with just for yourself.
I agree with you 100% on this one, Ethelreada! His actions are self-centered;I got the sense he’d just love to bust up ragsmom’s marriage, but only for the sake of his ego, not because of mature concern. That was my sense of it anyway.
Ragsmom, it sounds like you’re leaving the door open to future contact with him. Why in heaven’s name would you do that? He’s giving you a very clear run-around message to keep you on the hook; that’s all. Please slam that door and start feeling things again …. like, feeling good about yourself!
You’re brilliant, Natalie Lue! I’ve been reading your website for many years now and have recommended it to many friends. I have a PhD in psychology, but for these areas of psychology, you’re my guru! Thanks for calling it as it is and cutting through the BS. Keep it up! With very best wishes, Dr Lucy Goldsmith.
Veracity, Sofia, Wiser
thanks for your posts.
Wiser: I like the putting the feelings in a corner idea. V helpful.
Sofia – the affair lasted 5 mths, and its been 3 months since I was outright hurt (ie the ‘girlfriend’ came to visit although she was in another relationship. she works for the same company as I do – so fantastic for trying to forget! – but I never met her but have seen photos and everyone else in my office did. Very few of them knew I subsequently started sleeping with MM ie when in hindsight i think this was when the girlfriend found someone else. MM told me there had been someone other than his wife, but that it was definitely over.
Then told me it wasnt over, she was coming to meet him, about 5 days before she reappeared, when he was visiting me)
I left town on holiday).
-He emailed me 1 day after she left town saying he hoped I was enjoyed my holiday. He left the city (we dont live in the same country now, but will do so again soon. Girlfriend lives in a third country, where neither of us live).
-I did NC for about 3 weeks, but….then thought I was fine, and so got back in touch to say my holiday had been great, thanks. I wanted to be cool and calm……
-He then got in touch to tell me his child had been in an awful car accident (*empath v. sociopath alert). I was sympathetic. He then asked me to help him for a work thing – which I did (I know, so wrong….he said “you dont have to”. I didnt, but I did. I told myself I wanted to be the “bigger person” so I thought. I had not found BR yet!!! aaaagh).
-I then went NC again (I hated myself) for another 3 weeks or so, but he had texted in between. I replied.
– then I hstarted the longest NC which was 6 weeks. He wrote on xmas day. I didnt reply. 3 weeks later he wrote again, I didnt reply. Then I thought I felt okay about it all and replied last week…
Ive not really done NC but have on and off (a big change from what was 20-30 emails or sms messages a day, phone /video sex when long distance, and full on contact when together).
Veracity – you say that I think I have learnt from this.
I was purging all my emails and photos of him today and came across a whatsapp chat with him. Id downloaded it because I recall i sent it to my girlfriend. she had been appalled and said he was creepy and weird (it was about him wanting to ‘give’ me a child….and we’d be great parents together etc etc)
I made the mistake of re-reading it today. Im sure you will ALL say its obvious he was an AC – in it he was saying that he hopes he can see me regularly long term and might I move to the city where he lives?
I was saying, i dont think so, as it would be difficult for me to not feel anything longer term if I did that.
he said – feeling anything? But you wanted things to be uncomplicated?
I said – but I dont think they would be if i saw you longer term because youre married (NB denial alert! by then I was truely hooked…. and addicted to the sex too)
He then said – well lets stay friends and see what happens. Id love to see you more often though.
hmm…was he manipulating me? Or just wanting cake and eating it too becuase he could? My one colleague who knows about him say he was not a jerk, or manipulative, but was getting what he wanted. According to them it wasnt a big deal. which made me feel I was over-reacting.
I should have wanted to mean it when I wanted to call it a day but I didnt, as he was coming to to visit.
He said he wanted uncomplicated – or was it me? Or both of us? But the girlfriend he loved who was seeing someone else, she made it complicated (IRONIC its not the WIFE – the poor woman) and the wife. and him of course. I think he THRIVED on complicated. The poor AC’s life is too dull otherwise.
It ended because I said I couldn’t do this to myself or to his wife any more. ie being involved and had to step away from his mess.
QUESTION: Is it a mistake to try to re-read into past emails/messages with a manipulative AC?
I can also share one more thing: I suffered from bad depression for about 3-6 mths in 2011. I was burnt out, exhausted, had poor self esteem anxiety, and was being bullied at work in a new job, by a manager who also turned out to have severe mental health issues having come from another job where Id been working 12 hr days. I was taking medication that I think made me more anxious.I am off those now.
I worked HARD at picking myself up but I was determined. I have bad days still, but I have learnt to manage it well and in fact others have come to rely one me for being easy going, happy and also letting things go.i trained myself to not let things bother me….until this!
I rushed back into therapy when I was trying to end the affair after 1 mth of sleeping together and again when it ended 3 mths ago. The therapist I felt was more shocked than helpful but we focussed on the self esteem issues.
QUESTION: I worry what impact all of this might have on someone in slightly fragile mental health?
ICBIFT:
Hello again!
QUESTION: Is it a mistake to try to re-read into past emails/messages with a manipulative AC?
ANSWER: Yes. In fact, it’s a mistake to keep them. Delete them all. Once you’ve deleted them, it forces you to stop re-interpreting them (please don’t memorise them!), and you will be FREE and feel much better, and be able to move on more quickly.
QUESTION: I worry what impact all of this might have on someone in slightly fragile mental health?
ANSWER: I am a veteran of clinical depression, and like you, I beat it and got off the drugs. My depression – like yours – is a response to too much stress and feeling overwhelmed.
My earlier bouts of depression were also responses to my own poor decisions, where I hadn’t taken responsibility. Taking responsibility helped to ease the burden of depression – it’s counter-intuitive, but us ruminators (and you are a classic ruminator!) need to break that cycle of thoughts. One way to do that very effectively is to accept responsibility for our own foolish or ill-considered actions. You own it, and then it’s much easier to let it go and move on.
If you can de-stress your life as much as you can, you can stay episode-free in the future. By ‘de-stress’, I don’t mean running away from things or complaining all the time that no one makes the world safe for you. I mean that you learn to change your reaction to things going on around you.
Some things you can change – even big things like jobs.
Some things you can’t change – like annoying people or workplace bullies.
But you can definitely take steps to minimise their impact on you by changing your attitude, and also being brave enough to follow your workplace procedures on how to report and address bullying.
This kind of action can be very trying and very tiring, but you should stick at it until you have gotten the outcome you were aiming for. It’s worth it for the empowerment you feel afterwards. Just follow the due processes, and document everything, and you’ll be fine.
Be of good cheer. If you have overcome depression and gotten off those incredibly unhelpful drugs (try reading Robert Whitaker’s Anatomy of an Epidemic to find out just how unhelpful those drugs are), you are well ahead of everyone else, because you have really achieved something major.
Just stay away from romantic relationships for a bit, till you get your head screwed back on straight.
Beckee
thanks for sharing. I feel like we have been sleeping with the same person (gosh maybe we have been…*gulp*) although yours isnt MM, I hear you.
“few days later he sent me a text saying he was seeing someone and much as it really pained him due to the amazing sex we had he thought it best to leave seeing me at the moment, like I’m some kind of service.”
and well done for seeing it quicker than I think I did…or even do…!
“Whether he realises or not doesn’t matter. I felt he wasn’t going to let me go until he had the upper hand due to his massive control issues.”
Thank you,I’ve read your story, it sounds so sad. I hope you are able to keep that man out of your life. I hope my mr unavailable doesn’t get back in touch. I’ve deleted everything. Silence is so powerful more than anything we can ever say and protective against manipulation and control which is what I fell into. I won’t let him take my power away from me again. I’m glad he tried to crush me as he revealed who he really was, a man who gets a kick out of hurting people to make him feel good. We can’t win with these assholes, the only thing we can do is to walk away with our head held high and not let them see the pain they have caused. Easier said than done I know.
A few years ago, I stepped back from a close relative after years of feeling like he was treating me with contempt and lack of care. We talked during christmas with the help of his partner, and I was very pleased about this. It was definitely progress.
But as I’ve had time to chew on it, I find myself stepping back again. I told him honestly how he makes me feel, and as ever, I felt there was no emotional reaction or sincere response – that’s why I stepped back in the first place. I get a weak apology and denial that it’s anything personal, that’s ‘just him’, but his dislike and judgement of me is barely veiled.
I’m grateful to his partner for mediating, but she suggested that I should accept how he is and that I would have to make the effort. I’m pretty sure they will somehow be thinking he’s the victim in this and that I’m just another family member to fall short of expectations. I said to her honestly that it can’t be solved overnight but I do want things to get better over time and do care, and I got a harsh response, that it’s ‘not all about me’.
This is what makes me upset about it, for years I tried to win him back and to be ‘good enough’, at THAT time I thought it was ‘all about me’, something I was doing to deserve it. But then I got wise and realised it’s really about him, and I just need to have my own back. That includes minimising my time with someone who cuts me down, no matter how close we were as kids.
I think a lot of frustration is that I can’t seem to communicate to either of them what my ‘truth’ is in this. He has his own narrative that she rightly supports, and it removes responsibility from him. I know that it’s easier for him to see me as ‘less than’ so that he doesn’t feel bad for some irresponsible behaviour from the past, which I’ve said I can forgive. I also think he has plain resentment that he needs to get past. I believe he doesn’t want to lose me but to see me as an equal and the person I’ve grown into would mean taking a good look at himself too, which I’m not sure he’s prepared to do. So he prefers to see me as the worst person I ever was, no matter how much I own my past behaviour. I feel sad that he has this grim view of things (it’s not just about me) and wish i could reach out to him, write a letter, but just can’t. I guess I will hope that things unfold for the better over time.
Happyb, is that your brother? Just like mine … So, so, so hard and so painful, but it’s good when you finally get free, and realise that his opinion doesn’t actually matter.
Oh, that narrative … I know just what you mean. You will never get ‘justice’, because when people seal themselves up in a narrative, they fight you tooth and nail if you present evidence that stuffs up that narrative royally.
So I don’t. I just smile and nod from a distance, and leave early. I guess the warning is not to seal yourself up in an equally destructive narrative.
Ethelreda, yep it is. Thanks so much for your understanding, it’s weird how I get on with my life and then suddenly it comes and bites me. I’ve posted a lot about it on here.
It’s a combination of anger that when his opinion did matter to me, it gave me a terrible sense of self, which I feel stunted my development. I know it’s my choice how to take other people’s behaviour, and that he had plenty else to grapple with, but I feel like he kicked me when I was down. My narrative, ‘nobody cares blah blah’ was incredibly destructive and I still have to fight it, I think I should be more forgiving on him about this.
But then I also feel this great sadness for him, now that he’s off the pedestal, that his narrative threatens his happiness. His antagonism and doling out of blame leaves him with a weak foundation, as do his continuous (probably exhausting) attempts to get around grief rather than through it. So frustrating to see how he gets stung by the consequences of his actions, then turns it into him being victimised! I could go on and on. I just hope he gets his sh1t together. Counselling is certainly on the table.
happy b,
It’s so hard when it’s family. It’s especially hard if you have looked up to this person and you hold their opinion in high regard.
I’ve had something similar with my sibling(s). As I’ve gotten healthier and stood up for myself and stopped being a dorrmat, they have criticized me and/or shut me out.
I think our growth and the changes we make in our lives and in ourselves can be threatening for the family members that have not had therapy, and are not actively working to help themselves. They want you to go back to the way you were, so they can be comfortable.
My brother was raised that he was better than us girls; he thinks he’s superior. He has not spoken to me for 5 years because I stood up to him and protected myself.
I’m happy to talk things out/work things out with them when they are ready. I’m not holding my breath, and I’m not going backward either. I want them to be healthy and happy, but I can’t save them or fix them…don’t have the ability and it’s not my responsibility. I used to feel a sense of responsibility for them, not anymore.
It’s very painful since I’m the only one who’s been actively working on my stuff for forever…so I’m the problem. Meanwhile, I keep watching them go downhill.
I have felt guilt about that over the years.
It sounds like your brother doesn’t want to see and deal with reality and his partner is enabling him, at both of your expense.
Veracity, good on you for getting where you are. It sounds like you’ve gone through a very similar process, especially of wanting to fix them after demystifying the years of being a doormat. I can’t imagine the guilt could vanish entirely even though we shouldn’t feel it. It’s very powerful when it comes and not always easy to shut down, but now instead of letting the guilt spiral into pity and then blame to the person for making me feel that guilt, for not taking responsibility, I try to be more compassionate to myself.
It is upsetting that they don’t want us to grow. It’s the realisation that he doesn’t have my best interests at heart, like an older sibling should and like I used to assume, that has caused a lot of pain. What’s illuminating is that since my BR ‘awakening’, he’s called me ‘righteous’ (which is not a kind word) for simply doing things my way and not his. I stopped towing his line on family matters (which made me two-faced) and in my approach to the world more generally, stopped letting my well-formed opinions be swayed by whatever he decided was ‘the truth’. I could be called many things, but I’m not argumentative, and I don’t try to influence people. I am never ‘superior’ with people unless I think they’re nasty, not for having different world views. I hold my position strongly but I accept there are other positions that are equally valid. But he can’t agree to disagree, and that leaves many conversations, and most things that matter to me, taboo.
It’s all in the balance now. His partner is in some ways enabling him, but also challenging him and encouraging him to get help. I really hope he does this, rather than lose everything, but I guess I have to accept that whatever happens, it’s not my responsibility.
Happy b, Thanks. Good on you too for getting where you are. The work we are all doing on ourselves is not easy, but so worthwhile. That’s huge that you’re aware of the cycle and are shutting it down! Being more compassionate with myself, for me, has been the key to getting healthier. Focusing on that, more than building self–esteem, seems easier and, if done consistently, will also build self-esteem naturally. Do you find the more you focus on taking care of yourself and what is going on in your world, the less you feel responsible for them and therefore less guilty when they make a mess? It seems to work that way for me. Another big shift came for me when I came to the realization that they haven’t asked me to take responsibility for them; I’ve chosen to do it! Or, if they have put something on me that wasn’t mine, I still choose whether or not to receive it. The shift in thinking has helped me immensely. Now I just politely let them know that it is not my responsibility or ask how they plan to handle it. I’ve lost 2 siblings (overdose) and had to work very hard to release any sense of responsibility or guilt I felt for having not been able to change that outcome for them.
It is upsetting that they don’t want us to grow. It breaks my heart. That sense of betrayal and lack of loyalty is devastating. What I try and remind myself of when these situations arise with my siblings is that we were not taught how to love each other unconditionally. In my case we were taught to compete with one another for attention and or resources. I work very hard to remember that the way they are treating me has nothing to do with me and my worth. Their opinions are not facts, they are opinions and they are heavily invested in those opinions to keep their illusions alive.
If anyone is being righteous, it sounds like he is. It sounds like he is accusing you of the very qualities and behaviors he is demonstrating. I wonder if he can’t agree to disagree because he thinks that makes him weaker-less powerful. And if he believes that he is the patriarch of the family and so you should show him respect (bow down and be in the one down position).
I hope that you can find a way to have peace with this no matter what he chooses to do. You know who you are. You know that you are not the person he is trying to make you out to be. At the end of the day, like you said, whatever he decides to do, it is not your responsibility. The only thing that is your responsibility is how to choose to respond to whatever he decides to do.
Veracity, that’s so sad to hear about the loss of 2 siblings, heartbreaking to imagine and shows that you must have overcome the same triggers. You might feel a similar sense of injustice that your remaining siblings don’t appreciate you – like death is supposed to bring families closer, it does in fiction. I marvel that my brother has seen the fragility of life and would still let our bond waste away. I’m always conscious that life is short and it makes me want to be on good terms with people, but maybe others have the opposite reaction and get desensitised.
“Do you find the more you focus on taking care of yourself and what is going on in your world, the less you feel responsible for them and therefore less guilty when they make a mess?”
This is something I find paradoxical about self esteem. That when it’s low, you make everything about you and put yourself in the centre of family struggles etc. and put others’ needs before your own and allow them to validate or discredit you. Then when self esteem gets healthier and you put yourself first, you know what is other people’s stuff and what is your own, so you remove yourself from the centre.
I’ve spent lots of my adult life single and living alone, yet I perish the thought of my brother’s relationship breaking down and how he’d manage, yet he still treats me like I’m too needy and dependent, my requests for respect treated like demands for emotional support. I believed him until recently. No sense in any of it, it seems to come down to opting out or playing along with it. And then I fight thoughts that I should try and intervene for him to get help for the sake of his family, which is clearly very misguided and the old low self esteem habits talking, putting myself in the centre of things as though I can control them.
It helps to see it as cause and effect, to see how you were not encouraged to be supportive siblings – but doesn’t that then take you to blaming the parents and feeling sad for the siblings, which is just as painful? Either way, it’s better this way, with self awareness and compassion, than taking the more travelled road of destruction and denial.
Happy b, It was/is sad – feels like such a waste. I don’t feel injustice that my siblings do not appreciate me anymore, because I’ve finally recognized and accepted them as they are. I was working way harder at helping them than they were. That was my choice and I was getting something out of it. We don’t do anything consistently without getting something out of it. It’s not just on them; I played my role. I’m free of it now because I don’t have the expectations of them anymore. I’ve let go of the fantasy that they will change. I would love for them to get help and get healthier, but I’m not expecting it. I’ve stopped giving them my energy(I’ve stopped trying to change (control) them. I love them from a distance.
I take your point about seeing how fragile life is and that it often brings people closer. What I learned is that it can also terrify people with control issues and send them further into their own world for comfort. I’m pretty sure that is what happened to my siblings after we lost our sister (and parents).
That’s a great observation about self esteem. I wonder if it is because when it is low, we want to focus on anything else but ourselves and our issues, so we distract ourselves with other people’s stuff as a way to build ourselves up. But I don’t think it works…or if it does, it is short lived.
“I’ve spent lots of my adult life single and living alone, yet I perish the thought of my brother’s relationship breaking down and how he’d manage, yet he still treats me like I’m too needy and dependent, my requests for respect treated like demands for emotional support. I believed him until recently.”
I wonder why you worry so much about your brother being able to manage on his own. He’s a grown man. Does he act helpless? I can’t help but wonder if he senses your doubt of his ability to take care of himself. If it comes out it ways you are not aware of. Do you think you are accidentally intruding on his emotional or intellectual boundaries at times? The reason I ask this is because in my book on boundaries, they explain all the different kinds of boundaries we have and different ways people cross them. Lets just say I was shocked at how many ways I have unknowingly crossed people’s boundaries in the name of helping! What I thought of as kind and helpful was really crossing a boundary that I was unaware of.
It also stated that when we chase EU men (my phrasing there), we are intruding on their emotional boundaries. We sense their pulling away – distancing – and we push/try harder to get them to engage. Our pushing/trying is a boundary intrusion. They’ve set a boundary. I wonder if he resents your involvement.
I’m not saying that’s an excuse for his lack of respect. It is clearly not. You don’t deserve to be treated that way. Wondering if you take a step back emotionally and focus on you if it would require him to step up where he’s not in his life or face the natural consequences of not doing so. It would also require you to face and manage your feelings (anxiety?) about him having to deal with the consequences.
“It helps to see it as cause and effect, to see how you were not encouraged to be supportive siblings – but doesn’t that then take you to blaming the parents and feeling sad for the siblings, which is just as painful?” I see what you mean, but I don’t experience it at as blame now (been there, done that, I think it’s part of the process). I look at it as a reality now. We were not taught these skills, behaviors, etc… it is what it is…now what are we gonna do about it? In my case, it’s learn as much as I can-teach myself those skills, behaviors, boundaries, etc that I didn’t learn as a child… Yes, it is painful to face the reality of it, but when that pain is acknowledged and felt, it passes. It’s funny, I’m starting to realize all the pain I’ve tried to avoid over the years wasn’t all that bad…it was actually more painful trying to avoid it!
About boundaries, I’m only intruding mentally now, but you’re helping to keep it in check! As in, it was only when I saw him last that I saw the possibility of his relationship breaking down – his partner as good as threatened him in front of me, even though she also took his side, and before then I saw him as having a cosy life. So I didn’t talk to him about it or intrude, but saw a vulnerability that I think my less baggage-y friends might respond to just the same if it were them, but without all the soul-searching.
I’m very impressed with your attitude. It shows I have some way to go, but that’s cause for optimism.
The phrase ‘it is what it is’ makes me laugh now. In St. Vincent, someone says that to Bill Murray and he says something like ‘what that really means is, you’re screwed and always will be’. But of course, you’re not! You have unscrewed yourself very well!
What a waste of benevolence. “I believe he doesn’t want to lose me”: Really? isn’t that you projecting this wish of yours on him instead?
I wish you the strength for *you* to believe *your* truth and walk away for good from this person and his equivalent partner. V.
V, thank you. I might well have walked away if it weren’t for their kids, who I’m close to, and some hope that he might ‘process’ things. This theme keeps recurring from men in the family and ex EUMs, how much can or should people change their nature? How do you decide what’s acceptable?
I see… I can tell you this: the moment you stop investing energy in this person, you’re free. You can stay near him, for his kids’ sake or whatever, but you have to switch off any expectation. It takes a bit of exercise, so take your time. Best, V.
V, that was exactly my strategy and was working fine until they tried to fix it but in doing so, seemed to land too much on my doorstep!
Yeah, that was bad advice @rags mom probably. I guess it is pretty clear that the OM doesn’t want a relationship. But that doesn’t mean he doest care for you.
You guys would be proud! I have been NC since my last post and can feel this time is different. Up and down a bit, but I think that’s just grief. Thank you everyone who helped with comments. I can feel this has come to an end for real. I feel stupid for what I said to MM on Friday, but it is so good that it kicked me out of this.
I have been seeing a married man who does not live with his wife full-time…they have separate residences. Yes, I know…wrong and selfish of me. But, I am not in love with this man and have no interest in being with a cheat. I see him for what he is. We happen to have amazing chemistry in the sack, lots in common and a good time together and I make sure we only see each other once a month to avoid getting too intense.
Although, I feel things are winding down with him due to me wanting to move on, because I do feel bad about dating someone who is attached, even though it’s not much of an attachment, it is wrong for all involved. But, I have to say I have been dating while I have been seeing him and have not been able to find anyone better. That makes me sad.
The last guy I dated was great on paper, single, said he wanted a relationship, and then barely called, and barely texted, but still wanted to see me…I lost interest and dumped him after 4 months. I really tried with him because I am looking for a relationship, but there was no progression. When I go out, I regularly meet men with fiancés and wives looking to cheat and I regularly turn them down.
So, I know I deserve better than what I am getting from this guy I am seeing, and truly want a relationship with someone available, but I can’t find anyone better. I met about 20 guys last year and not one was relationship worthy. So, what’s a girl supposed to do, become a nun while she’s waiting for the right guy to come around? It’s a frustrating situation to say the least. I admit I am getting negative feelings about relationships, but it’s because of what I see around me…its hard not to.
So, I guess what I am saying, is that I see a lot of pain on here and I feel bad for everyone, but it’s hard to be single and lonely and meet a**hole after a**hole, so sometimes we get lonely and don’t pick the best person to get involved with. Ladies, don’t be too hard on yourselves. It’s rough out there in singles land and there is no shame in feeling lonely, unloved, etc. But, never think the man will leave the wife for you…he won’t and when you really think about it, would you really want him to?
Frustrated, me too. I don’t have any encouraging words. I think it is a fact of life that many people, male and female, are destined to remain uncoupled. We have to make our own way and find our life purpose elsewhere, and stop chasing the relationship brass ring. We are not “less than” because we are uncoupled.
I really don’t think there are many happy couples. For those who THINK they know a happy couple, my view is that you really don’t know what is truly going on between two people. So many people wear public masks of contentment, and suffer behind closed doors. Lives of quiet desperation, as the saying goes.
I think moments of happiness are fleeting and are to be enjoyed as they come.
Yes, it is rough out there for single females, especially those in their 50s. Never get involved with any married or attached man. They will not leave their wives or significant other. Even if they did, would you really want someone like that who you know cheated. I had a man coming on to me while I was married. I never acted on his moves, but when he found out I was getting divorced, he basically wanted nothing to do with me. I had to find out the hard way. I made him a nice dinner and baked him a birthday cake. He acted grateful and texted me the next day to thank me, but four months have gone by since that nice dinner I cooked for him and I have yet to get a phone call asking me out on a date! There aren’t many women out there who would go out of their way like I did, so I figure it’s his loss! I now met a nice man in my apartment complex who makes me dinner and is kind to me. You just have to hold out for the right man. It may take some time, but he’s out there. Let love find you!!
Hi Frustrated –
I can’t guarantee you that you will ever meet the Perfect Man who is relationship-ready when you are, plus available, plus into you.
But I can guarantee you that while you continue in emotionally-unavailable relationships like the one you’re in now, you definitely won’t meet him.
Forgive me, but you don’t actually sound emotionally available yourself yet. You’ve got this married guy you sleep with, but you are careful to keep him at arm’s length the rest of the time. And now you want to move on, so you’re getting ready to dump him.
Are you sure there really is such a dearth of decent guys out there, or are you simply attracted to/attracting the dodgy ones because you’re sending mixed messages?
Ethelreda,
“Are you sure there really is such a dearth of decent guys out there, or are you simply attracted to/attracting the dodgy ones BECAUSE YOU”RE SENDING MIXED MESSAGES?” Great question! You seem to be good at coming up with those! The last part is what struck me…one of those moments where I knew it intellectually but hadn’t quite connected with it yet. A shift in perspective. I’m going to let that one spin around for a while. Thank you!!!
I wish it was all my own work, but diligent reading of Baggage Reclaim has actually taught me a lot of this, including what questions to ask myself.
Asking myself questions has turned out to be far more satisfying than asking EUMs questions. I actually get answers this way, and usually quite intelligent ones, too.
thanks Lizzp, Leanne, Ethelreda and Nina .. I needed to hear all of that ..this site, Nat and all of you have become invaluable ….
Lizzp, we were colleagues for a year , we also met in person for a week in April during a team conference, i left the job in July ….
anyway, strangely enuf, more drama from me last nite, I cudnt get over that I thought he was distancing himself cos he thought I was wanting out of my marriage and wanting to latch onto him for another ring …ie cos I was scared to be alone …how does me being into me translate into being sad and clingy …I had to have the last word tho I know I’m in the wrong here as a married woman and an emotional coward, it doesnt automatically make him a saint and right abt everything ….
anyway, i emailed him a lunch invite I got from another guy we both know who in that invite email sounded quite interested in meeting me, …I mentioned abt the number of times I have turned down such offers …Im not ‘looking for an out on my marriage’ by ‘latching onto him’ …yes my marriage is far from ideal …but I believe I genuinely fell for OM and would have left my marriage in a blink during 2014 or even most of 2014 if he had beckoned …but all he kept giving was mixed messages and I also belived I wasnt good enuf for him …..anyway so i sent that email to him last nite and said look I have other men who notice me and his conclusion that I was clingy and sad , i rejected that and knew my motivation was true affection for him, and that I would leave things be. and would only email him rarely to keep in touch. that was that.he sent a reply saying ‘STOP EMAILING ME. do you have any idea how much it hurts that you would think my ex going with other guys is a joke and that you going with someone else would make me yearn for you. you think I care or give a damn that you turned down 5 guys who just wanted to get to know you. you are turning out to be a disappointment and we dont talk anymore because of a reason = you.’
NC day 1 . technically he has now called NC ,so I dont have to worry about weakening, Id be a stalker at this point. I feel like I wont weaken for some reason – neither he nor I are making sense at this point. His email contradicts complteely his ‘ caring immensely’ for me in his previous email. sounds too far out to even hurt me at this point. I think I’ll let be. I think if it wasnt for my marital status , we would have been together right from when we met in 2013, who knows how long it would have lasted, but we would have certainly got into it at that point. thats that. NC day 1. if husband finds out, will face the consequences . divorce, no contacting OM ever again . he said not to email him.
Ragsmom,
You might find these two posts useful.
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/having-an-honest-conversation-with-yourself-for-better-relationships/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/why-affairs-are-like-being-double-crossed-in-a-heist/
rags mom, I dont fully understand what you are doing. You seem to want your marriage to be over. Is that true? You not only have an OM, but he is wanting NC and you are not complying.
I can sense the anxiety coming off of you in waves, its that feeling of oh my god if I dont write this email I’ll explode, why doesnt he answer, where is he. You are unable to validate yourself or your feelings and are hoping someone else will. You are unhappy with your life and trying to create another one, without stopping to think.
If you’re mentioning to the OM that yet more men are interested in you… thats messy. You’re clutching at straws to convince yourself you’re desirable. You’re married – you can explain an OM by talking about attraction and ‘if i was single’ but its harder to explain your validation from other men. Where is this coming from? It sounds just a little bit … self-absorbed? narcissistic? but you seem so sad about it, so you clearly dont want to be this person.
Why are you not taking a break from your marriage? [not from the OM, but because you dont seem to be in the marriage].
You’re so much better than this. You deserve better. You aren’t taking responsibility, you’re waiting to go around the bend so your husband is forced to take the responsibility and initiate the divorce. That is unfair. You seem to resent him for monitoring your online activities but you have given him enough basis for a divorce. If you’re so anxious, the odds are you can’t engage with him in a normal way, so he senses that you are not really present in the marriage.
Your anxiety, the OM, those emails, etc., this is avoidance for what you need to do – think about what your marriage means, and make a choice. Think about what you want from relationships. You’re running away from reality.
‘STOP EMAILING ME. do you have any idea how much it hurts that you would think my ex going with other guys is a joke and that you going with someone else would make me yearn for you. you think I care or give a damn that you turned down 5 guys who just wanted to get to know you. you are turning out to be a disappointment and we dont talk anymore because of a reason = you.’
Painful, but also a wonderful gift, because you need to take this completely and utterly at its face value.
Well done for reading it correctly, and making a solid resolution to avoid contact. Yes, you have tipped over into stalker territory a bit here, which can be a really good wake-up call.
This is a very hard time for you, ragsmom; be assured of our support. But it could be a really great watershed for you to clear out a lot of old baggage from your past, especially in your marriage, and to revisit that marriage with fresh eyes.
Don’t make any hasty decisions, that’s all! Give yourself time to process all this.
Rags mom,
“…as a married woman and an emotional coward, it doesnt automatically make him a saint and right abt everything ….”. Yes, I agree. However, be that as it may, it is not relevant to whether or not you choose to take a leap to try and address your own issues. I understand the lure this young man represents. As you wisely advised Colly some way back regarding her own urge to break NC you are distracting yourself by breaking NC and then participating in the subsequent drama. He may have decided he wants to exit this drama and being imperfect like the rest of us, is struggling with his own self awareness, what he wants, how to do it etc, or he may enjoy the sensation of having you at his mercy and stringing you along and hurting your feelings; more likely it’s something in between. *The point is*, what he does and says is what he does and says. It is on you to do your best to bring your focus back to yourself and get some support to that will help you treat yourself better, with more care, respect and trust. It’s not easy and I do empathise with the level of deep pain you are experiencing. It helps to try and name some of the feelings. A good therapist, just for you, could really help here. You might surprise yourself by discovering strength and courage you didn’t believe you had. But you’re not going to have this nice surprise while you remain focussed on him.
sorry for all the typos ..
Colly are u okay ?
the posts seem to appear out of order to when I wrote them…maybe due to moderation….a bit confusing!
Beckee – it is sad but not really, if you think about it. I went in willingly, and even proposed we continue for longer than the first week, because I enjoyed the sex so much with him.
But as E the U says – a lot of this is about accepting responsibility for ones actions.
E the U: THANK YOU SO MUCH.
I saved the emails and chats into a folder – apart from the ones which were about the other woman visiting/him not caring/proclaiming his honest.
I have only re-read them once and it was to reassure/remind myself that I was not imagining that he said nice, flattering, romantic things to me (he did) but I have looked a photos from time to time.
I took your advice : I tried to take responsibility. It did sort of take the *sting* out of the hurt, but didnt stop my constant obsessing about the ‘girlfriend’ when his name appears on email chains at work (not the wife as Ive no contact with her. I think neither wife nor girlfriend know about me and him).
how do i stop that obsessing?
Then I decided to try to be thankful for the lesson. And the fact that I think now am more sexually confident (I had been quite shy before… with MM I was upfront about what I liked and wanted in bed. And I will say it was great but Im also relatively inexperienced) But most of all, I tried to be thankful for learning about boundaries, self respect and ‘reading the signs’ to identify ACs, as it were.
It wasnt easy: I dont think being sexually confident really matters and I still felt hurt.
Il try again when he next pops into my head.
Oh I laughed out loud at the end of your comment – its very kind of you to think I might jump into a relationship or romance soon: you may recall I have never had a proper/long term committed relationship with anyone, and Im not young any more! almost 40 yrs on this planet…..
I cant help thinking I would be lucky if I EVER met anyone again who wanted to sleep with me as WELL as be committed, non AC, MM or manipulator. Im not unattractive: in fact friends say Im really v pretty; very funny clever and excellent company (now I sound like Im boasting…) But as you all know, its not quite that simple when it comes to self esteem and AC MMs….
* sorry
HER name appears on email chains.
she (girlfriend who he re-started with when visiting) is a colleague, he works in a sister organisation.
Today at work I saw there was a conference in our home city – she is in another country, but will be travelling to attend the conference, where he will be too.
My heart dropped. My eyes glazed over.
Sure I dont want to meet him again….but I dont want THEM to meet either. Now I will think about them meeting, probably having sex, how he said he loved her, how thats probably more/instead of me.
Is that crazy?
ICBIFT –
Don’t get too astonished at what I’m about to say, but have you ever considered that you may be towards one end of the autism spectrum?
The reason I ask is that you have some of the traits expressed by women in this situation:
– obsessing and ruminating;
– inability or real difficulty in forming one-on-one relationships;
– inability to read the ‘signs’ or context of a situation (the things that are really being said, rather than the literal sense of what is being said)
– low self-esteem and depression
Women towards this end of the spectrum (a spectrum we are all on, by the way!) are also very vulnerable to exploitation by sexual partners.
I am down this end myself, so it’s just a thought, but if you’re interested, here are a couple of links to reliable information:
http://www.autism.org.uk/about-autism/autism-and-asperger-syndrome-an-introduction/gender-and-autism/women-and-girls-on-the-autism-spectrum.aspx
http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/index.php/about-aspergers/girls-and-women-who-have-aspergers
Hi I_etcetera,
you’re saying this about a man who has had you as a third (NB: *third*) conquest, one who is currently married and has an ‘official’ girlfriend, besides having had sexual relations with you?
You’re talking about how he “loves” her, even “more” than you??
I am going to throw up now.
What I would do if I discovered that this x had another, other woman, would be to spit into his face, right there in the office, the very moment I saw him.
Now, if that’s a bit extreme for your taste, I understand; but where’s your Anger dear?
Once you find it, you won’t be able to write his name and the word love so close together.
Best wishes to you, V.
I read this today and thought of everyone on BR. I’ve been reading, learning, and silently holding all of your hands since May 2013. You’ve all been my sisters (and a few brothers) in my journey. I realized yesterday afternoon that I was just done. No tears, no fight, no explanations — oddly, when I let go I sort of felt nothing. Just done. NC is the only way out and I’ve packed my (metaphorical) bags and hit the road.
This resonated so so so very much with me when I saw it in my Facebook feed this morning that I’m delurking to share it with you. MUWAH!
She let go.
Without a thought or a word, she let go.
She let go of the fear.
She let go of the judgments.
She let go of the confluence of opinions swarming around her head.
She let go of the committee of indecision within her.
She let go of all the ‘right’ reasons.
Wholly and completely, without hesitation or worry, she just let go.
She didn’t ask anyone for advice.
She didn’t read a book on how to let go.
She didn’t search the scriptures.
She just let go.
She let go of all of the memories that held her back.
She let go of all of the anxiety that kept her from moving forward.
She let go of the planning and all of the calculations about how to do it just right.
She didn’t promise to let go.
She didn’t journal about it.
She didn’t write the projected date in her Day-Timer.
She made no public announcement and put no ad in the paper.
She didn’t check the weather report or read her daily horoscope.
She just let go.
She didn’t analyze whether she should let go.
She didn’t call her friends to discuss the matter.
She didn’t do a five-step Spiritual Mind Treatment.
She didn’t call the prayer line.
She didn’t utter one word.
She just let go.
No one was around when it happened.
There was no applause or congratulations.
No one thanked her or praised her.
No one noticed a thing.
Like a leaf falling from a tree, she just let go.
There was no effort.
There was no struggle.
It wasn’t good and it wasn’t bad.
It was what it was, and it is just that.
In the space of letting go, she let it all be.
A small smile came over her face.
A light breeze blew through her. And the sun and the moon shone forevermore…
~ Rev. Safire Rose
Kabbie, that’s brilliant! I don’t know your story, but I read it and believe you. You’ve had your decisive moment, you are free, you’re independent, and you don’t need willpower to stay away because your need to let go was so powerful, you won’t look back. What might need willpower is getting back your centre and sense of self, but that’s a breeze compared to what you’ve been through!
Thanks Happy! My story is no different than anyone else’s; only the names, faces and perhaps a detail here and there. I could fill pages and pages and go on and on detailing all the sickening twists and nauseating turns of our relationship…it’s some Oprah worthy shit 😀 We honestly do care about each other and the chemistry/attraction is like nothing I’ve experienced before or since (and he claims it’s the same for him). But this has been on again, off again for THIRTEEN YEARS, albeit with some extended periods of NC. The longest period of NC was 2004-2009 and again 2011-2013.
None of it matters anymore. He’s pulling the fade on me again, I feel it coming. On Monday I sent him a text asking a quick question and when yet another one word reply came, I snapped. I’m done.
Ha Kabbie, talk about same stories! I had 14 years on and off, also with 5 year hiatus. We had great warmth and chemistry and understanding, he was my world, and it took a few years between recognising the pattern and reaching that point you’ve described so well. Also for me it wasn’t some big drama (and there were plenty of them) that made me quit him, but just catching him red-handed in reset/ smoke and mirrors mode.
When you said ‘pulling the fade’, I’m sure there are similar patterns. Maybe you (will) see too that ultimately, there is no substance to him, nothing solid behind the chemistry and attraction, it’s cheap and easy for him to give it, he can pick you up and leave you (and whoever else) at any time according to his own ego and whims, and you have no say in it.
In complete honesty, I haven’t met anyone since who I’ve been that comfortable around, who’s understood me or made me laugh like he did, who I’ve had that chemistry with. Yet, when I told him to stay away, he said ‘my door is always open’ – (of course that’s BS, it was never bloody open!) – I could go back to the same thing if I wanted to, but it’s inconceivable. No matter how lonely or frisky I’ve got in the past few years, I would never go back to that dark place. The freedom from anxiety of where he is, why he’s not texting, how long his affection will last and the rest of it is great. The only chance I have of finding someone who can give me love with substance and consistency, not just addictive sugar highs and crashing lows and health problems, is to stay away from people like him.
Yes! Yes! And yes! Thank you for sharing that. I don’t hate him, I never could. I feel sorry for him now. I reached out to him when his dad passed away in May 2013. Hearing the news broke my heart for him and I emailed that I’d heard and was thinking about him and his family. I didn’t have his phone number any more (I’d forgotten it) and wasn’t even sure the email address I had was valid. He called me — because his “door is always open!” and “we’ll always be the best of friends!” — about a week after the funeral and I stupidly allowed it to progress from there. Since then, we haven’t gone more than three or four days without talking, texting or emailing and we would see each other once or twice a month (we live a two hour drive away from each other). Until the holidays and the new year — he’s going silent, that’s his M.O. It’s a slow process but I’ve been through it before so I see it coming. Whatever.
Thanks to a year of therapy I’m OK with it, but I’m just done. This time when he comes out of his mancave after nursing whatever he’s butthurt over, my door will be firmly closed. I wish him well but at the same time wish him gone.
Funny you mention the “sugary highs and lows” — diabetes was what took me down. I finally felt so horrible physically and mentally that I had to get my act together or I was headed toward an early demise. I’m healthy now…off all medications and strictly diet controlled…and feel better than I have since my 20s. Now I just need to lose some weight — I’ve got this 6’2″, 200 lb monkey to get off my back.
Oh I wasn’t being literal about the sugar! But good work that you’re getting better. I certainly had more physical as well as mental health problems when I was involved. Those disappearances are devastating, you never get used to it. If it helps (you’re still kinda talking in the present, but maybe that’s because it’s so recent), write down all the feelings you have when he’s gone and what it does to you. It seeps in eventually.
I LOVE THIS POEM. I am going to print it and read it often!!!
@rags mom, very sorry to hear this :(. It must feel sad to get this response. I’m not the best with advice these days so I won’t offer any up other than staying NC is the only way now. you can do it. After you get through the grief of this stage of breaking NC, then I think you should go to therapy (on your own) to figure out what is plaguing you and also for anxiety. It sounds like you have gotten very anxious here and spiraled out of control in your emailing (ie. Worrying about what he thinks and then sending stuff to try to change his thinking). You should work on that. I have been there. And it is hard but you can get it under control with professional help. And then you can work on your marriage and what you want to do about it. But get well. You deserve to feel better than this and it starts with taking care of yourself and NC. Hugs.
@rags mom, I’m here, sorry am in the US this week for work and am really busy so not had time until now to catch up.
I feel so much for you that you’ve got to this point, but I do believe that sometimes you have to get to rock bottom/have a big wake up call to start the mental clearing out and healing. What has happened with OM is such a wake up call for you. His behaviour in this is really of no consequence, it’s your own behaviour that you need to look at. You didn’t want him to think you were clingy and needy yet your actions made you look exactly that way. You have been engaging in humiliating behaviour, which is a great indicator of low self esteem and also a strong need for NC.
The BR team above have offered some great advice, you do need to focus 100% on you. Please see OM going NC on you as the gift it is for you. You have a wonderful opportunity to learn from this and grow into a fulfilled and happy person. Perhaps it might be an idea to tell your husband that you are feeling very low and that you need to do some things for yourself so you can be a better person in your marriage? Then pick something to do for yourself and go and do it. I understand the internal turmoil and guilt of being a working mom as you feel you have to spend all your spare time being a domestic goddess, but please take time for yourself, you need it and it is essential for your well being.
I’m still NC and doing well with it. Of course feelings come up, but I am still so done with him. I had another work crisis which meant I needed to contact him and others to fix a problem for me, I needed him to run the team. He jumped straight on it and got things started, emailing some questions. I replied and thanked him for getting to it swiftly and referred him to one of my employees to work with him on it rather than me. He wrote back and thanked me for letting him be involved and help me. I don’t know what to make of that but I don’t really care either, I don’t have the energy to be bothered processing it. Yay, it is a really good feeling to be properly NC in your head – please get to this place Rags Mom, it all looks more manageable from here.
Hugs
thank you all so much for your replies …God bless this site ,its owner and all of you …..
That poem that Kabbie poste on here today, about letting go …thats how I want it to be ……
Rags Mom – I’ve been lurking around here for almost two years and what finally brought me out into the BR light of day is reading your, Colly, and ICBIFT’s stories, among others, in recent days. I read Nat’s advice and have devoured all her books and have taken it all to heart. The missing piece in all of it — the one thing that has never let it all come quite into focus — is that I am also married and have been throughout my involvement with my OM.
Your stories brought it full circle for me for some reason. Perhaps I can now see myself in these pages? Yes, I have been involved with an EU NPD Assclown. But I am an EU Assclown too. I never wanted to speak out because I’m a lousy faithless wife to a wonderful man and thus I deserve every bit of the pain I’ve endured and then some.
I can tell you this: DO NOT BE ME. Do not allow 13 years to pass with your OM…it goes by in the blink of an eye. I had to fall apart physically and mentally two years ago to get to where I am today. I shouldn’t have waited as long as I did to get professional help. I now know my “whys” and have mostly dealt with my issues, at a minimum I recognize them. It wasn’t all about the OM…he was just a symptom. The irony of it is that I fell apart when I did because I could. I’d held myself together with duct tape, chicken wire and bits of string until I reached a place in my life that I could fall apart. Because of the soft landing place my husband provides, GOD BLESS HIM. He’s been so understanding about everything except the one thing he doesn’t know about and I hope to God he never does. It would destroy him and he’d leave me without a second thought. My affair with OM wasn’t about my husband or the OM, I was about me. I’m the damaged one in our relationship.
DO NOT BE ME! I wish I could get those 13 years back. The things I could have accomplished if I hadn’t been ruminating and obsessing about the OM and beating myself into a pulp for being a dirty cheater. DO NOT BE ME! Do not allow your life to disintegrate until you can’t get out of bed for months at a time because you’ve spiraled into such a depression and ignored your physical health for so long that all you can do is stare at the ceiling and cry. If you can’t get past this on your own, PLEASE seek out professional help because it’s not about OM, it’s about YOU.
Interesting post… I was wondering about something, if it’s not too personal (or out of place) to write here, and at the cost of appearing naive for asking: you had a relationship with another man for 13 years and your husband hasn’t noticed? how is this possible? I’m asking because I’m a bit worried here, what if I am in your husband’s shoes; I hope I would be more perceptive, but I don’t know really. Thank you in any case, V.
V – It’s a totally legitimate question and no, not too personal. I’ve opened myself up here because I have perspective on both sides — as a woman involved with an EUM Assclown and as a married EU Assclown myself. Plus, speaking about it today has been sorta cathartic 🙂
Like I said previously in my reply to Happy, there’s so much to the story. I was trying to drill down to the essence of things in my posts and left out a lot of detail and background information. Because of that, I realize it is or can be confusing and leave a lot of unanswered questions. I’m happy to answer them, but it will have to wait until tomorrow.
Kabbie, I am another, like V, who is interested in hearing your take on how it is that your poor husband remains unaware. But I am pushing myself to find a connection between that question and the themes of this article. I am fully aware that this site is not a forum. My curiosity has got the better of me so I apologise in advance, Nat, and understand if you leave this unpublished.
My apologies ladies and Nat! It was not my intention to veer off topic and drive us into the proverbial ditch. I’d originally posted on this article because I had a breakthrough moment of clarity on Monday — I’m done with OM (again) and ready to resume NC with him. The following day I saw that poem I posted above and it spoke so loudly to me that I wanted to share it here because I knew it would resonate with many of Nat’s other readers too. I’m going to try to answer your questions quickly and then resume my lurker status, continue to work on myself and my marriage, and fully recommit to NC with the OM.
Two things you should know. First, I got married in 1999 and got pregnant four months in. It was an oopsie! but we dealt with the surprise factor and started prepared for our daughter’s arrival. My pregnancy was completely normal until 34 weeks when I suffered a massive hemorrhage and had an emergency C-section. Our daughter did not survive the delivery and I almost died from blood loss as well. You always hear about couples who lose a child or suffer some other kind of tragedy and their marriage is unable to survive in the aftermath. You can’t begin to understand the dynamic until you’ve lived through it yourself. We didn’t handle it well. We should have sought counseling immediately, we should have turned to each other to grieve together and support one another, we also should have turned to family and close friends for support. Instead we both turned inward and threw ourselves into external things to cope by not thinking about it. I compartmentalized and shoved all my feelings deep down inside and then threw myself into my career and got heavily involved in the leadership of a service organization I belong to. It was how I’d coped with hurt, loss, anger, etc. for my entire life. I put on a perfect façade and carried on. We ended up horribly disconnected from each other and living with a thick black cloud of unspoken sadness hanging over our relationship which we have only begun do deal with and heal from in counseling for the past year or so.
Second, I met the OM through the service organization I was involved in that I mentioned above. We met in 2002, less than two years after the death of my daughter. Our affair was 98% emotional. The 13 year span I referred to includes 7 years of complete no contact (2004-2009 and 2011-2013) and two years of very limited contact (2009-2011) when we only talked on the phone 4 times at most during those two years. Things only got physical between us on 5 occasions. We have not had intercourse or even oral sex. We would have had intercourse on two occasions in 2003, but he had ED issues both times so it never happened. The other three occasions were just “making out” — UGH that sounds so gross and juvenile.
All our face-to-face meetings in 2002-2004 happened at the quarterly conferences for the organization we both belonged to, so we were both away from our hometowns (we live a two hour drive away from each other) and staying in a hotel. Can you get more cliché than that??!! Other than that, we carried on an intense emotional affair via phone calls, emails and text messages during that time. He dumped me like yesterday’s trash by disappearing and cutting off all contact with me in 2004 and that lead to the time of no contact/limited contact I outlined above.
In May 2013, OM’s dad passed away and I got the news through the grapevine of our mutual friends. He is an only child and was especially close to his father. I felt terrible for him. By this time I’d forgotten his phone number (I didn’t want to reach out by phone anyway) and wasn’t sure if his email address was still valid. I sent him a quick email that basically said I heard about your dad’s passing, I’m so very sorry for you, your Mom and your kids. I just wanted you to know I’m thinking of you all. He called me about a week after the funeral and I, like a big dummy, answered the call.
I did not see him again until August 2013 when we came to my city for a business meeting. We met for lunch and then walked around downtown window shopping and talking. After that, we were right back where we left off with the phone calls, text messages, and emails. We have met once or twice a month in my town or his town during the day while my husband is at work and we are almost always in public…lunch, shopping, playing golf, watching a movie, etc. The times I’ve been to his house, one or both of his children have been there, so there was no chance of anything physical happening between us. Somehow I justified in my head that this was OK…I convinced myself in some warped way it was helping me heal. But I also knew we were on a slippery slope and couldn’t continue to live in a fantasyland carrying on this imaginary relationship with him. Living the double life of a liar and cheater along with the guilt I felt every time I looked at my husband had started to take an emotional toll on me. Since August or so, I’ve known I needed to get rid of the OM, I just didn’t know how to suddenly up and pull the plug seemingly out of the blue. He’s solved that problem for me. During the holidays and especially since the new year, he’s pulling away. We’ve only exchanged two text messages since January 1. I’m going to let him disappear again. I don’t do social media, so I don’t have that to worry about. I’ve blocked his email. I need to figure out how to block calls and text messages on my phone. I’ve never had to do that, so I don’t readily know what to do. I’m done. I think I said to Happy earlier, I wish him well, but I wish him gone.
Around this time last year, I had fallen apart mentally and physically due to the 46 years of hurts, disappointments, anger, sadness, etc. I’d bottled up inside and never dealt with. I also think passing what would have been my daughter’s 13 birthday was a HUGE trigger, although not a conscious one (i.e. I wasn’t sitting around waiting to mark the date or obsessing about it.) It was so bad I knew I had to get help. Things have really turned around for me, my husband, and our relationship since I’ve been in therapy. We have reconnected, we laugh together again, go places together and do fun things again, we have dates every week, we lay in bed and talk every night before we go to sleep. Our physical relationship has returned and is improving. We’ve stopped living like best friends/roommates and started living as husband and wife again. Life is looking good.
Again…there’s SO SO SO much detail and background missing here. I am going to end the “me” show here. Just typing this all out makes me cringe because the whole thing is just so stupid and pointless. Reading it makes me realize all over again how much of an asshole and hypocrite I sound like. When did I become this woman?
Kabbie, re your last paragraph – on the contrary, you do not sound like a hypocrite,and going by your story and the way you are reflecting on it nor are you one. Thank you for the clarifications. The very limited actual contact and long periods of NC with OM explains, to me, why you feel there still remains a great potential to heal and strengthen yours and your husband’s relationship. And why you still have a real relationship and bond with him actually.
I am very sorry for the pain of the loss of your little girl. I cannot imagine how I would react if I was ever to lose my son (now 9 years)and am in no position to relate to the level of grief that must have been involved (and the waves of sorrow that must still roll by ). I feel (from my position as a mother who has not had such a loss)that if I lost my son I would simply need to disappear and also die, and yet I know parents who have lost children and see that they do survive. It does sound like the choice you finally made to seek help has been instrumental for you and your future and your marriage. I hope you will be able to take some pride in that at some point and acknowledge yourself.
You read as if you are getting to a place where you can begin to share in a meaningful and fruitful way again with your husband. It sounds like you are moving forward now, allowing the pain of past losses and learning to grieve.
Everything is crystal clear now, you have answered to every possible doubt I could have conceived. I thank you. I am very, very sorry for your loss. I hope writing this hasn’t caused you any undue pain. I wish you all the best. V.
Rags Mom – I got off track with what I originally wanted to say. I’ve never spoken to anyone about OM in all these years. The only person on Earth who is aware is my therapist. So sorry if I suffer from some word vomit or go off on a tangent, my mind is going in 17 different directions.
It CAN be as easy as that poem, if you let it. I spent an enormous amount of time and energy planning the perfect timeline, pondering would I and should I make thr grand speech about why I was going NC, if I am going to make the grand speech what am I going to say instead of just doing it.
I read BR and books and blogs and forums and magazines and etc etc etc looking for the thing that clicks for me. Surly if I just keep reading, I’m going to find THE answer! Instead of just doing it.
I prayed, burned candles, journaled, listened to sad songs, watched movies instead of just doing it.
JUST DO IT. Go no contact. Then and only then pray, burn candles, read books, post on this forum, journal it out, cry, scream…all to help you get through it.
If you don’t do it and stick to it you’ll still be here in 10 years and your life will have crumbled around you.
The only way out is through.
E the U
Yes low self esteem, insecure, kid depression. But definitely not autistic. I was shy as a child which fuelled my insecurity and made the shyness worse, but nothing in the article rings true. Guess I’m just obsessive.
Frustrated –
How long have you been sleeping with him? Your story is exactly like mine. I also held MM living apart from wife at arms length. I told him I was doing so. Suited me and also suited him, which I’m sure was why he liked me so much. He’s tease me asking when I’d start to fall for him, or have feelings, how I was cold and guarded. But we got on so well and the attraction was electrifying .
My only advice is that there may come a time later down the line when you have a bad day or just feel lonely and you turn to this man and he is comforting and kind. And the you start to feel more for him… And before you know it you’re hooked.
In my case when the former lover reappeared, the MM was quick to throw it all back me, “but you said his was casual”. It’s true. I never expected him to leave wide for me and nor did I want him too, he was a cheater!!!!
He said the former girlfriend always pressured him to leave his wife but he would not. I said ” shes pretty dumb then , cos I know you won’t” point is if makes no difference. I know nothing I wld have done wld have changed him, I had no control over him. I wanted him to love me, I admit it, eventhough I wasn’t sure about him.
So just be careful of your own feelings. Sex might be great for itself but after several months, I started to fall for my MM… Then I was depressed, anxious and jittery all the time. I as miserable.
I think of all the times I thought I was walking away but he kept me under his control until he wanted to see his former lover, but also expected me to hang around as we were “casual”.
Read Natalie’s posts on casual relationships, and also the hallmarks of a relationship. Also an old one about why we want people we don’t even like, to love us.
4 hours after my last post and I find myself composing a reply in my head ….I would be a stalker if I actually sent it , so first adulterer and now stalker , Im on a roll ladies ….
anyway decided that I would write the reply here rather than send it to him … I didnt copy paste his email yesterday cos I meant to soft delete it but hard deleted instead so its gone, but I realised I wrote one sentence wrong when I quoted him verbatim, but it doesnt change anything of course, certainly doesnt change the first line ‘ STOP EMAILING ME’.
here goes ,
I was going to reply inline to each statement in his email –
1. ‘ you think my ex cheating on me with 5 other guys is a joke …’
This is completely irrelevant to the email I sent to you and you know it.
2. ‘ You think a woman cheating on me makes me yearn for her…’
(this sentence was the bit I misquoted as ‘you think you going with other guys would make me yearn for you…’)
my reply – same as above. what the hell are you talking about, what does this have to do with my email ?
3. ‘ You think I care or a give a damn that you turned down 5 guys who just wanted to get to know you better…’
hmmm interesting. According to you on last thursday ‘ you cared for me immensely’ …’would always be there for me’ …I was ‘part of your inner circle’ and you spoke to me as much as you did your own family….and you knew I loved you. Also I was one of the people who helped you overcome the scars your ex left u with. But 5 days later …you dont ‘give a damn’ what goes on in my life ??? do you treat everyone in your special inner circle this way or am I really really special then ? You are either lying now when you say you dont give a damn or you were lying on thursday . which is it ? do u even know ?
If you said that last thursday just to make me go away, why go that far? u said that in response to an email where I said goodbye…why call me back and lie to me that you cared immensely ? Am I the only ‘sad’ one here ?
4. You are turning out to be disappointing. there is a reason we dont talk anymore – you.
‘turning out’ ? why use present tense ? You just ended this with the first sentence of your email ( stop emailing me) so why not say I ‘turned’ out to be disappointing ? cos you think Im going to reply right away and apologise for ‘hurting you by joking abt ur ex’ ? Im not
so sure abt that.
And oh thats the reason we dont talk anymore ? cos last thursday you said
something else ‘totally unrelated’ to me was going on and you were busy with that and would tell me all about it later. if you really wanted to get rid of me all you needed to say was the truth ,dude , thats all u
needed to do , you could have said =
‘I’m sorry I just dont feel that way about you. We can never be more than
friends. ‘…or….’ I like you but dont feel any physical attraction’
‘sorry, but the age diff is more of a factor than I thought at the beginning, I love you but only as a friend…’
If you had sent me that email I would have said ‘ I didnt feel jealous if that was your intention, cos as you know, I only think of you as a friend. But as your friend, I am glad to see you have what appears to be a few nice young women interested in you, so plenty of good options if you do get a divorce, but thats a choice you need to make. Here for you as a friend…’
first line put in here as last line = STOP EMAILING ME.
This is the only line in your email that rings true to me and makes perfect sense. You got it.
BR friends, I know just a lot of gibberish from me, but I’m glad I put it here and not on email….I cant add stalking to my list of zero self esteem attributes at the moment ….
Oh sorry, i left out a bit of the reply to
3. You think I care or give a damn that you turned down 5 guys who just wanted to get to know you better …
also wanted to reply = so you would have cared or given a damn if it was just getting to know them better , if I had actually slept with them then you would have cared ? So , do exactly what your ex did then ? But the thought of doing that makes me want to throw up.
okay Im done, sorry had to get that off me, and I know it didnt make any sense …
Please don’t say anything further to OM @rags. It’ll just make it worse.
I think he is thinking on very different wavelengths than you are. He cares about the you he used to know, the one who was likely relaxed and fun, not angry and anxious. Those are the natural consequences of breaking things off, which you had to do last year. You need to back up and take care of yourself. There is nothing that you can say to re-engage here and any further contact right now is just going to make things worse. I am in the early stages of this this week and 4 days into it am already feeling a bit better. Don’t make it worse.. make it better for yourself through NC. Waiting on the otherside.. come join us!!
Thank God you did not send that to him Rags Mom. Delete it from your computer. Please get some counselling. You can do it, make a commitment to yourself, please.
Back to kabbie’s beautiful poem …
I just wish that we could fast forward with the knowledge we have gained from these experiences. Also realizing that “hope” is not enough to keep hanging on for years “hoping” someone will suddenly be a decent person.
My ex cheated on me n I caught him, but what hurts the most is that he didn’t even apologize or seem to feel bad. Yes I know he’s an assclown but how can a person be so cold n just move on do quickly n hurt others without remorse? I can’t wrap my head around it
Jennifer,
1.Because he’s not invested in any particular outcome for the relationship. His view is “If I call you and you make yourself available to me for sex or whatever suits my needs, I’m good.”
2.He may have played his Teflon card early in the relationship. Did he ever say things like “I’m not good enough for you. I’m not good at relationships. All my exes hate me.” So if you’re feeling bad about anything he’s done, in his view , that is on you, because he told you what he was at the beginning.
3.Men who don’t give of themselves do not ever feel “bad” about what they’ve done to another person. They don’t think about OTHER people. They don’t put themselves in other people’s shoes. They did not DO anything except be who they are.
Are you saying you were in a clearly defined relationship? You two said to each other AT SOME EARLIER POINT that you are seeing each other exclusively? Because unless it was spelled out, one can never assume the other person is on the same page.
Jennifer, dont bother wrapping your head around what he is doing. Lets say he is feeling guilty, he might well be, so what? It will hurt for a while what he did. But its time to turn the focus back to you, because you will never understand why he did what he did. Even if he told you, you wouldn’t understand because you dont want to accept, you dont want to hear the truth – he doesnt care about you. You’re also wrong to think that not apologizing is worse than the cheating, that its the moving on that is worse. He moved on when he cheated. The cheating is the problem, thats what broke you up. Please see him for the AC that he is such that whatever he does now is irrelevant.
AND sit down everyday and meditate on your pain. I have avoided all my grief for so long and EUMs come in and fill those spaces with the anxiety they create. By focusing on anxiety, obsession I can ignore how lonely I am, how I worry about my career, and how I have yet to fully grieve for my past relationships, and family. I am afraid of sitting with the grief because I think I will fall apart. These EU obsessions are our way to delay the moment we have to reckon with our losses.
You want to question and obsess how anyone can be so cold because you dont want to face what really happened or what you fear – how can I be so unloved. I’m truly sorry for what happened to you – dont cast your pearls before swine [and your thoughts and feelings are also precious].
I’m sorry it’s the Raggy ‘Daily Mail’, however the stories of these betrayed pregnant wives and the seemingly total lack of responsibility exhibited by the husbands, provides one solid reason why it makes perfect sense that an OW would feel she has no more energy to spare explaining why she is pulling out/stepping away.
Leanne, given the behaviour of the MM you have left, do you need anything more to understand what kind of man you were probably dealing with?
And I’ll tell you another thing, when we hear from the MM that he perceives his wife as ‘controlling’ (finances/friends and so forth)we can exercise our critical faculties to consider a scenario that perhaps the poor women feels she has a reason for not trusting him (ie a previous affair or similar betrayal).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2920526/We-meet-mothers-whove-suffered-ultimate-betrayal-husbands-cheat-wives-PREGNANT.html
Thank u so much for responding. I’ve been w the same AC over past 4 yrs. we were supposed to be exclusive 2/4 times we got together. But he cheated before even when we were exclusive. U r right–he did do the “I’m bad at relationship” talk. We were supposed to be taking it slow this time around but agreed we wd tell eachother if we wanted to be sexual w others. Two weeks before I caught him, he said he wasn’t seeing anyone else. He asked me what I wanted n I said exclusivity. He said ok but hesitantly by saying” I don’t hv anything going on right now. Then two weeks later I catch a girl at his house. I saw a car over late at night n he lied to my face that it wasn’t a girl inside the house. Finally he admitted it after I told him that I’m not that dumb to believe him. It just sucks so bad. I know he’s a cheater, liar, moody, disrespectful but yet I still miss him?! It’s like natalie said. I think I’m attractive, sexy, smart, funny, kind, etc so why can’t he love me?! I read the posts everyday but it’s still hard to grasp n I constantly worry he’s going to meet some special girl who’s going to change him n he will turn into a loyal, caring guy. But why couldn’t I be that girl?
By the way I do know that I shouldn’t hv accepted a lack of a clearly defined relationship or a man that cheated on me in past but I feel so addicted to him. I thought he would stop cheating, be nicer, etcetera if he only could fall in love w me.
Another thing two weeks before I caught him he asked me if I was sleeping w others. Of course I wasn’t. When I asked him he said no n that he has no desire to do so?! Wtf! I felt like he was actually falling for me for a while but that quickly changed:(
Hi all! I hope I haven’t missed out on the conversation. I wanted to share however my recent experiences of simply having to let go.
First scenario – This exchange was between myself and the guy with a girlfriend. My friend told me that I was wordy and came across resentful and bitter but guys, it just came out that way. Everything like a rushing wind especially when he had the audacity to say that he loved me. I will admit however, that it’s partially my fault given I broke NC a few weeks before when I came across a yearbook picture of him while going through storage. Here is that exchange (verbatim):
J: U miss talking to me i miss u.
Me: I miss a lot of things. Most of all a man who respects me and my time and doesn’t keep me hidden and block me from all modes of communication so that they can live double lives and keep me a secret from their girlfriend. You’re being selfish right now.
J: Wow
Im sorry u feel that way im but i do hope when can be friends again the only reason. U block is because i thought that was what u want. I hope u forgive me n understand i do want u n mylife im mo trying to fuck or anything i don’t even look at u n that way anymore but i do want u to know o love u n i wish u the best.
Me: (This is where I snapped) So is love telling someone to constantly get out of their feelings when questioning the actions of the other who supposedly cares for them. Is love making it clear that you were content in making no effort in us except to fill my time and consume my ear with whatever you needed to get off. Is it love to tell me to get over it, she’s my girlfriend forgetting the things you said to me prior about us living together! Is it love to tell someone to basically drop everything cuz I’m the one with the money and can go anywhere without any clear expectation as to where the relationship would go. You don’t love me, you love the idea of me.
(I actually updated the BR forgive but not cosign graphic here! hehe)
Me: To add, love shouldn’t be strained, it shouldn’t be so hard. Also remember, you blocked me first without any real explanation…but you blame me because you thought that’s what I wanted. I really do believe that you believe what you’re saying to me. So just know I do forgive you. Doesn’t mean that I’ll forget.
Hi all! I hope I haven’t missed out on the conversation. I wanted to share however my recent experiences of simply having to let go.
Second scenario – The childhood “sweetheart”. Ladies and Gents, I have been on this roller coaster for almost 20 years. What would I call him…..future faker, emotionally unavailable…. We’ve known each other since we were 14-15 and have kept in touch ever since. When he went off to the war in Iraq, I made it a point to keep in touch and let him know that someone was looking out for him, etc. He was the first out of the two of us to proclaim his “love” but of course nothing ever panned out from that. He and I have been essentially tormenting each other with this fantastical relationship we’ve conjured in our heads. Essentially, we would communicate via chat and email until texting came along. Every time we’ve attempted to meet up, he has basically stood me up with no explanation, call in advance, etc. except once last year since he’s been back in the states (which has been perhaps over 7-8 years ago. He works at the White House) So I’ve shut him down in terms of no contact several times but then the holidays come around or he might reach out…..too many times to count or remember, and we start up the convo again!! My issue has simply been that I didn’t want to lose him as a “friend”.
Our last exchange has been surrounded by the idea of my visiting Washington D.C. and as a friend, I wanted to let him know that I’d be in town. I wouldn’t be staying with him or wanting to hang out….I just wanted to let him know as a courtesy (my friend asked me, “he deserves your consideration now?) because I’m not rude so to speak..and yeah, I was hoping to see him, get some help around town if necessary. I’ve been taking mini vacations by myself these days. Looking forward traveling via Amtrak soon. At any rate, our text convo went back down the road of what do we each want out of a relationship. What are you looking for? He had the nerve to ask “You tell me what you are willing to give then we can meet halfway”. That caught me off guard and then he asked, “what do you want?” So not paying attention to the fact that he essentially insulted me I proceed to list all of the things I want in a relationship. He agrees. Then I ask what do you want, and he lists basically everything that is essentially me (been down this road before). I basically said that…we’ve been down this road before and how I just wanted to visit D.C. At any rate, he essentially tells me that he wants me and always has but is worried about how to have a long distance relationship with all of his traveling, etc. Gives me this line about how sometimes I want to be friends and other times I want to be more so he just asks these questions to gauge where I’m at. And I of course counter with how is this on me? His actions have nothing to do with how I may feel or not feel. He can either chose to be a friend or not be a friend. He seems to feel as if he has to walk on eggshells for me. So all in all, I don’t know, but after that I just simply said to myself that he is not a friend. I had been saying it in my mind for the past few days to try and get it to stick and to make myself to never reach out to him again or respond to him (that will be hard as I have through all of this maintained the idea in my head that I truly cared for him and his well being regardless of the circumstances). (Side but important note: In the past few years when we’ve discussed “working” on the relationship, if I were to call, would he actually pick up the phone? Nope. But text all day friends, text all day. And that still didn’t keep me from “caring” about him. Hmph) I don’t know, maybe I scared him by just being me. Not my concern anymore.
Why do I keep fooling with these people!!!! Exhausted!