While receiving treatment for my shoulder and neck a couple of weeks back – all better now, thank you! – my osteopath explained how we all have thresholds of stress and if we are very close to that threshold, it will not take much to tip us over. Many of us believe that we’re fine and only know how close we are to that threshold when something happens and it seems to cause us to spiral. We are what I talked about a couple of years ago or so – acclimatised to stress. To ensure good health, we have to listen to ourselves and make sure that we’re well below that threshold so that life’s inevitable bumps don’t have the ability to tip us over the edge.
At the time I remember thinking, Hmm, this reminds me of boundaries, and then I forgot about it until I had a couple of incidences with people who are filed in my mental Roladex in a small section that features certain people in my life who have boundary issues, and something struck me:
When a person tends to have boundary issues but they appear, after what is likely to have been some wrangling and back and forth, to be staying within your boundary line, the next time they decide to cartwheel and tap-dance all over your boundaries, is when you will see that it’s not that there haven’t been issues with them – it’s that there have likely been mini, minor and medium transgressions that kept them just below that threshold.
Just like an ex who woos you back with big promises and grand gestures and then gradually eases right back to whatever they were doing that caused the original issues and had sworn was going to change, the person who hovers below the threshold (right below your line) may tow the line for a while and then gradually start edging their way up to the threshold. We all have to pick and choose our battles and there’s also the fact that we may compare a person’s behaviour and so historically – and this is particularly with family – stuff can seem so minor in comparison to what they were doing before that you might accept their version of ‘minor’ when it would be pretty major if it were someone else altogether. We may lose sight of the bigger picture. We’ll also flag up certain things from time to time and let other stuff go because we don’t want to be riding someone’s arse like Zorro over everything and we want to show willing. We want to give the benefit of the doubt. Hell, we don’t want to spend our time trying to raise a person from the ground up.
Again, just like the ex that woos you back and then manages down your expectations to maintain the status quo, someone who’s been hovering near the threshold will remind you of what they feel are their good deeds and intentions rather than acknowledge the fact that they’ve gone over the line.
In fact, people who have boundary issues but give the appearance of appearing to respect them, are often making their underlying resentment and anger, whether it’s about you or just in general, be known through their passive aggression – some people have sworn that they’ll never be ‘told what to do’ after certain experiences and so will rebel, even if their form of rebellion is disrespecting you and others. The big problem with passive aggression, especially if you’re unaware of it, is that passive aggressive people appear to be compliant while being covert and obstructive. This is the key thing to look for – where have they been saying one thing and doing another? Where have they been difficult but not admitting that they are and then trying to put that on you?
When a person has previously busted your boundaries, seemingly steered clear and then goes too far and crosses the line ( it becomes ‘high stress’ for you), they may act as though they’ve amassed the credits to do so because they have been behaving themselves (or haven’t been caught or had it it pointed out). In some instances, they’ll remind you of how they’re almost been ‘inconveniencing’ themselves by having to behave….
It’s at this point when you become aware of that uneasiness that exists with people who are not au fait with healthy boundaries. Those other instances that were close to the line but were put on the mental backburner, suddenly give you the awareness of how close to that line you were with that person. You may have had to battle to draw a line with them in the first place, despite the fact that you have people in your life who never come anywhere near your line and so you experience relative peace with them. You don’t get put into the position of having to explain why something is a problem because you have a mutually respectful relationship with a person who values boundaries. Even if you have a disagreement, that won’t result in going over the line. It will just be a difference of opinion.
The great thing about having boundaries, is that you only need to be particularly concerned with them when it comes to people who fly past their roost. As I’ve said many times before, having boundaries isn’t about ruling people – it’s about knowing your own line and your limits, and representing this in your own treatment of you and where and who you spend your time and energies on. What can you do with someone who hovers close to your line? If opting out of the dynamic isn’t an option – they may be part of your extended family for instance – you just need to keep you at enough of a distance that you know the limits of your interactions, instead of expecting that they’ve changed. In this way, you will not be surprised when they run true to form but you limit how much you will be affected by them.
Recognise that uneasiness as the cue you need to have a habit of being boundaried around them. Recognise the sense of peace and mutuality in your other relationships as the cue to where your energies should be directed.
Your thoughts?
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Boy oh boy! My ex husband of 4 months. I went NC and suddenly he decides to have an interest. My boundaries are; leave me alone so I can heal and gain some perspective. But no, he wants to text and say that he wants to be friends. WTF? He left after 20 years for a Ghana internet romance scam. Oops! So here I am reading and learning about myself. Why I have had low self esteem for years. I took Nat’s class in self esteem (bless you). I am trying very hard to stay focused on now and be in the present and not get sucked into crazy making land. When I ask why he is texting me, he claims he wants to be friends! I say, I do not want to be friends with someone I was married to for 20 years; that ship has sailed. So here I am minding my own business and bam, boundary busting. I am working so hard on all of the craziness. Realizing that I really do not even like this person anymore. He is stuck in la la land. So I am working on me every day. Trying to treat myself with love, care, trust and respect and Mr. Unavailable, decides to poke me with a stick to try to get a reaction. Damn if is not difficult to NOT text back! I resist because I know where it will lead; right back into me feeling crappy about myself. Back and forth it goes. GRRR. Great post Nat. Thanks for all you do. There are times I would like to just scream my head off.
Chrissa I can relate. The day after our 25th anniv my husband moved out. He got involved with a cult and a woman he met there. It took me a while but I realized just how selfish he’d always been, and how much I had to give up to make the marriage work. I realized I gave, he took. The divorce was in 94. He seemed to think we could be friends too – not after ‘If you wind up living in a cardboard box under a bridge it wouldnt matter to me’. Go ahead and scream sometime, if you feel like it. It doesnt hurt anything. And I can promise you, things WILL get better!
Hi Chrissa:
your story sounds familiar… .wait a minute. It sounds like mine, LOL (and countless others).
That’s the think about Mr. Unavailable, they’re selfish. They want to be able to eat their cake and eat it too. They leave us and then expect that we’ll just accept a ‘demotion’ and be their friends. Well, here’s the thing. It doesn’t work that way. The minute you decide to leave us, we get to dictate to you whether or not we want to be friends. The only reason you want to be friends in the first place after you caused us so much heartache is because you can’t stand the thought of knowing that we don’t like you. It’s an ego stroke and we’re so over people like you.
You wanted to move on with your life, well now you have it. Now let us move on with ours.
Feeling better, Chrissa? 🙂
Mike,
I agree wholeheartedly! These people have the nerve to think that you are not supposed to move on after they have treated you like crap, left you for someone else and then comeback like nothing ever happened! They don’t get it once you made a choice you don’t get to comeback just because whatever you left us for didn’t work out the way you expected.
Mike & Stephanie
I agree with both of you. I don’t know where they get the nerve to think they can just walk in and out of our lives as if nothing has happened and expect us to comply with all the crap they keep dishing out.
Actions have consequences and many of these AC’s & EU’s have never experienced the consequences of their behaviour.
I know as a former doormat I let the AC get away with everything, since this worm turned and he found out that I wasn’t interested in his nasty little games including all the lies and drip feeding and disrespect. He got nasty when he realised I was serious & I was done with him. He found out there were consequences possibly for the first time in his charmed AC life and he didn’t like it one little bit but I’m not under any illusion that it will change him.
He’s been this way for a very long time and leopards can’t change their spots so I keep my boundaries locked tight where this man is concerned. The fact that he hasn’t completely gone away tells me that he’s flying just under my boundary line.
This is terrific. I ended an affair a year ago with a MM. There was rare contact, but in the past few months, he cranked it up to FB stalking, messaging my friends…hooks galore. I recently pulled into a parking lot and he did a u-turn on 2 wheels to catch up to me.
I was clear I did not want contact: “I am completely unavailable to you.” His answer: “Unavailable? What do you mean?” He evidently thought I was waiting and pining and would happily demote myself so the could feel good. He did his usual script–life is good at home but he can’t forget me, there’s no magic—he even told his wife that! IF it’s true, what a mean man!
I told him if he contacted me again I would inform her. It felt good to talk like an automaton, without emotion, and make my boundary crystal clear. I do not want to participate in their drama, but if I had to follow-thru, I would. My life is good, upbeat, positive. How dare he disturb my happiness.
Congratulations Swissmiss on gaining strength and setting a boundary that I’m sure has still left him confused because in his mind, “how can anyone possibly get over me”. LOL
It is possible to move on folks. You’ve just gotta get over that initial hump of loneliness and despair to realize that strength has always been in you!!!
In the words of the late, great Whitney Houston, “It’s not right, but it’s ok. I’m gonna make it anyway…”
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your kind words. This NC is tough. I know that I am better than just being a crummy option. Moving on is tough enough. I really cannot deal with his whinny garbage. Yes, I get the oh poor me, lazy texts and I am not long for this world. Really? Then go away already! Trying to suck me in. I tried once in January to talk to him because he was boo hooing. What did I get; the ole I don’t know what I want crap. Huh? Okay well go over there and leave me alone!
Awesome post! I just dated a guy like this. He would ask about certain boundaries I’d set (why aren’t we having sex again? You know why, buddy). Or would warn me he was going out so he’d probably be tired on our date (why don’t we wait until you’re not tired? Because we’ll still have fun) and basically giving me mediocre treatment with bouts of over-the-top pedestal compliments. The trick is to allow yourself to be annoyed, and let that annoyance build to give that electric fence a good charge so even the ones sitting a few inches away get a zap, and in my case send the lameo packing. Or just ask him to identify his honest feelings and watch how fast he runs.
As I read this I realise I am the passive aggressive person – how do I stop being this way? I’m reading The Power of Now and You Can Heal Your Life and am trying to be conscious of how I behave, but its such a constant struggle.
I have a tendency to behave passive-aggressively. Journaling has helped me…writing about what’s going on with me when I’m acting like this. For me, it’s about anger, feeling resentful, and being afraid to say so. It’s about not having boundaries. I grew up with a selfish, verbally abusive mother and having to take care of younger brothers and sisters. I didn’t feel allowed to have needs. Everyone else’s came first, and my role was just to take care of everyone else. I didn’t even understand that there was such a thing as boundaries, much less that I could have them — and enforce them without being a screaming bitch. Natalie, and a good therapist, have been educating me on this whole boundary-setting thing. So Muhree, my suggestion is first to look at your passive-aggressive behavior — when do you act like this? Are you angry, and if so, why? Has someone crossed a boundary? What boundary was that? What are your boundaries? Do you really believe that you have a right to have boundaries? What do you wish you could do or say with a boundary-crosser? What can you do to enforce your boundaries, in a calm, firm way? For me, it’s still scary to say no to people, and to tell them what I want, and don’t want. Sometimes I’ve gotten good responses, sometimes the other person has been angry and thought I was being difficult or mean. But hey, I’m still here and the sky has not fallen. I think that my passive-aggressiveness has also been fed by my wrongheaded idea that I need other people’s approval. At least I can see that now. Change is difficult…but so many of us are continuing to struggle, and we’re doing it…slowly and surely, like the tortoise in the race.
I totally agree with this article I set no boundaries with the EU I had been seeing off and on for the past 6 years and all it got me was upset, depressed, and mainly frustrated,because as time went on and he did his song and dance of leaving and coming back with me letting him, all it did was each time of him losing respect for me little by little. If I had set boundaries from the get go and made it quite clear that I wasn’t going to put up with his crap and if it continued we were through I think we would still be together.
Diane,
No, you wouldn’t be together, you’d have broken up much sooner, if you had set your boundaries and enforced them with consequences. But you would have saved yourself years of painful to-ing and fro-ing.
Yes Mymble. you are probably right, and by now be in a loving STABLE relationship. trouble with me I am too way too soft and forgiving and some people take total advantage of that for their own purpose. But no more the dance has ended the band has gone home and as my dad used to say, Goodnight and bolt the door. its good to feel empowered once again.
Okay, this time I can prove you’ve been hovering over my shoulder and reading my journal entries as I write them. It’s uncanny.
Thanks to your inspiration, Natalie, I’ve been on a relentless quest this year to develop positive self esteem in order to become emotionally available and start attracting sincere love interests instead of the EUs, cheaters and assclowns of the world.
I know now that well enforced boundaries are the cornerstone of self care, which leads to self trust, and to developing an internal locus of control (where I no longer need others to validate me because I do it for myself now).
I find it amazing how even simple boundaries have exposed the shady people in my life who are so accustomed to bamboozling me to get their way, they view my new, enforced boundaries as a personal affront.
Alas, my older sister, (she’s a lawyer, AKA a professional passive aggressive, conniving manipulator), has taken the most offense at my refusal to go along with any more of her horse-shit.
We made an agreement not long ago that involved timing our moves from Austin(her) and San Antonio(me) to Washington State. As we each began to sort out our homes and belongings in preparation to move, I noticed she started ducking the topic. I couldn’t even get her to re-stipulate what YEAR she planned to move, even though we had already agreed on 2015.
So I started asking her more direct, yes or no questions, and her responses kept getting more sketchy and fucked up by the day.
Usually, I never ask her personal questions, but this topic affected my own moving plans, so I needed honest answers that remained the same from week to week.
Stability has been essential to any major plans I have ever made.
I finally e-mailed her and said, “Look, we agreed to do this, so I have a right to ask simple shit, like if you still plan on moving in 2015. I don’t see why you’re acting like I’m prying into your personal business. All I need is simple answers to simple questions.”
Then I called my brother and asked if if he knew why she was being so weird, defensive and shady.
Get this–
She’s so secretive and private, I just found out this year she’s a Catholic!
But this was a situation that she invited me to join her in sorting out, so why was she suddenly being so evasive?
It turns out, my sister is so codependant with her partner of 28 years, that she obeys every demand the partner makes, or she gets punished with actual physical abandonment, infidelity, etc.
So my sister agreeing to time their move with mine and keep me posted was ridiculous because she is not allowed to decide or sign off on anything without the little dictator’s approval. And the dictator changes her mind more often than a capricious 13-year-old.
I stay out of their business because I know my sister considers her relationship an off limits topic, and I’m cool with that. It’s none of my business anyway–unless it affects me personally, like it does now.
To make a long story short, I was pissed because their crazy relationship was interfering with my very major plans to launch a whole new life. For that kind of change, I need the foundation of the plan (like what year) to be stable and firm.
So I wrote to her and said, “I’m pretty disgusted with all this avoidance & waffling, so I need a month or two away from you. Maybe during this break you two can settle on some basic details of the move– like what year.”
So that boundary–asking for a month or two of no contact, was set effective immediately. But she totally ignored it, and three minutes later she replied and said she & I didn’t actually set 2015 as the year. I had in writing, so I realized she was trying to gas-light me and turn the whole mess into me being “an angry, unstable, over-reactive person.”
By then I was ready to scream, so I wrote back and said, “There is this new thing called a boundary that helps me see if people respect me enough to leave me alone if I request it.
“Obviously you didn’t understand I meant leave me alone starting NOW.”
So now that I have made it clear, please leave me alone for at least a month.”
So she writes back immediately and said, “MAKE IT SIX MONTHS: You are exhaustingly needy.”
Well, after my head exploded, I knew not to respond because she proved she didn’t care what I wanted, and her respect for me was obviously non-existent. In fact, she was toying with me like it was some evil game she came up with to amuse herself.
So I figured if she wanted to deflect a case of her getting busted into an issue of me being needy, and then she had the balls to take over my NC boundary and expand it to six months — well, a minor squabble turned into a major problem I will have to address.
First of all, my sister has the emotional warmth & depth of a reptile, so she’s the last person I’d go to when I’m sad or down about anything. For her to call me needy was intentionally insulting because she wanted to create a major deflection she knew would send me over the edge.
Since I was tiny, I’ve always hated being blamed for something I didn’t do. When I was 4 she taught me that “on purpose” meant “accidentally” and
vice versa. So she’s known for decades not to claim I am this or that when I am not.
But this time, I thought it all the way through before I made any decisions. I spent two or three hours today writing everything I could think of about the situation, and how I wanted to handle her flagrant disregard of my boundaries.
I realized she always turns minor disputes into major battles she has to win at any cost, but with no end game ever in sight.
She doesn’t connect that her aggressive insults are overkill and they never can be taken back. She just has to win and never considers the long term consequences.
I actually think she’s mean and abusive to me whenever her spouse has made her angry and she knows if she directs her anger toward the little dictator, she will get punished with some kind of emotional abuse.
But she can treat me like shit instead because she knows how loyal I am to her, and family can’t leave (so she thinks).
She always ends up crawling back with some bullshit promises to be a better sister or whatever she thinks I’ll want to hear. And I used to always fall for it because I loved her and trusted her and assumed she felt the same.
But now that I can see how boudaries so easily smoke out game playing and phonies, I can see I’ve been seeing her the way I hoped she was, and not the way she actually was.
This isn’t a game to me, and I now choose ME over anyone who is disrespectful to me or my boundaries.
So this is going to change and I am going to set the terms. She doesn’t get a vote in the final resolution. I don’t owe her any courtesy or fair play.
At first I thought I’d write out an elaborate list of requirements I’d have of her before I accepted her inevitable apology. Then I snapped at that idea, because she’d sign anything and promise anything because she’s a freakin’ liar whose word is no good.
So, I decided I am going to do…nothing.
I am not going to give her the thrill of a reaction, because indifference is the best defense against these types.
I have no reason to repeat past behaviors that never worked. Boundaries make no sense to those who haven’t got any of their own.
So, since she thinks I’m needy, that’s where I will start the changes.
There will be no more calls from me to her, no more personal details about my life, no questions about hers, no visits to Austin and no invites to my home, I will accept no more gifts (she’s very generous because she uses cash and prizes to replace sincerity), I will send her no more photos of my latest art projects, I will not discuss my move to Washington or ask about hers.
I am not going to mention this latest example of her abuse to her ever again. She said I was needy, so I will change that alleged flaw.
In other words–if she wants the bullshit, empty relationship she’s had with me since I was a toddler, she will get from me exactly what she gives to me.
I’m not going to explain, discuss or try to settle anything with her. I don’t even care if she comes around and apologizes for boundary smashing. She is not the kind of sincere, honest and loving person I want in my life, so she has to go into my of closet of irrelevance–people who aren’t worth the hassle of trying to resolve things with.
Boundaries give others the chance to show me respect, or me the chance to take my self respect and walk away.
I know she’s family, but that will no longer be her ticket to abuse me whenever she feels like it.
I cannot change others; I can only change the things I know will protect me and add to my growing sense of self reliance.
Karen,
Good for you. I had to do the same thing with my MOTHER.
“Boundaries give others the chance to show me respect, or me the chance to take my self respect and walk away.
I know she’s family, but that will no longer be her ticket to abuse me whenever she feels like it.
I cannot change others; I can only change the things I know will protect me”
Keep this in your mind at all times…especially the next time she tries to contact you directly or indirectly….and you know she will.
Thanks, Derby. 🙂
This entire week has become a test of my willingness to enforce my bondaries.
I hired this guy I know to do some minimal patching on my living room ceiling and install a new ceiling fan I bought.
He showed up (late) on Monday and got half the ceiling done (it needed a day to dry before he could put the little bumps back on)and he said he also intended to install the fan on Tuesday.
He looked me in the eye and promised he’d be back without my asking. So I paid him in advance the whole amount.
He never showed up on Tueday or even called to say he was too busy partying to show up.
Yesterday, I literally hunted him down and I was blunt about how he had lied and totally ignored that I was stuck waiting for him all day and evening.
Get this–he said he objected to “the tone” I was using, because he was a “man” and resented me talking to him like he was “a little bitch.”
So I said, “I’m sorry to hurt your manly pride, but a real man keeps his word. I suggest if being talked to like a little bitch hurts your macho feelings, you should stop conducting yourself like one.”
Then I told him his tools and drywall gear were on my front porch and he could keep all the money I paid him.
I said I’d hire a professional to finish what he couldn’t manage to interrupt his party time to handle.
Then I said it had been nice knowing him, but until he gets out of rehab or whatever he needs to do, I’d prefer I get back to my life without him staying in touch.
I resisted calling the little bitch “a litle bitch” again.
He knows what he is.
Boundaries sure are thinning out the herd around here!
😉
I am so happy that I found your blog a while ago. It’s almost as if I’m reading my own thoughts. You have been able to articulate so many of the things that I have felt while dealing with toxic relationships. Thank you.
This is really good. Seems to me like many people hover just below boundary lines worldwide. Thanks for the new food for thought.
Ain’t. This. The. Damn. TRUTH.
Natalie, great post. Glad your neck and shoulders are better. Enough to straighten US all out, eh? (Kindly refer back to last post). 😉 You make me laugh, Miss Natalie.
I’ll say it again and again: you’re just BANG ON with this blog. Well done.
Thank you…this clears up a lot of clutter in my head about how my last bfriend manipulated the hell out of me and made me feel like I was crazy. Im still getting over it 6 months later….but your posts are a GIFT from God. Thank you
Uneasiness… Exactly! That’s what I feel with some people. Thanks to Nats post I got some valuable eplanations!
Dear Natalie,
You wrote:
“The great thing about having boundaries, is that you only need to be particularly concerned with them when it comes to people who fly past their roost. As I’ve said many times before, having boundaries isn’t about ruling people – it’s about knowing your own line and your limits, and representing this in your own treatment of you and where and who you spend your time and energies on.”
Natalie, this is EXACTLY what I have been thinking for years now, and should really be highlighted following the “expectations marathon”.
Boundaries go into “avoidance”/“self-protection” mode under ADVERSE/IMPOVERISHED conditions. In the absence of adversity, boundaries can loosen and relax. I was taught about this by an amazing lecturer on fungi back in my undergraduate days (no, I did not eat those ones!). They are the only lectures I remember.
So, yes, when I was with the AC I was constantly telling him about my boundaries, how he is crossing them and how he should be feeling/doing this, that and the other. In my current relationship I have not once had to assert my boundaries when it comes to my basic needs (I will when it comes to watching family guy two nights in a row). When we learn to respect our own boundaries, we know well enough to steer clear from unwanted people/situations, or at least assert ourselves accordingly.
Thanks for the great article, you really have an intuitive understanding of natural processes.
I hope your neck and shoulder are holding up as well!
RP
Ironically, a group of us gathered last night to celebrate a friends birthday when a local, whose marriage just broke up, and has a serious drinking problem, joined our table. This is a person who always hovers in a place where there is drinking in hopes someone will buy him a drink. He tried to hit on the “birthday person” , showed up at my house earlier and got outta there fast when he saw someone else parked there. Instead of dealing with his hard issues, he’s just kinda lurking. Yep, when your own boundary fence is up and working, this kind of thing is really obvious.
The funny thing was once I initiated my boundaries, the AC couldn’t penetrate it no matter what he did. It was funny to watch him try to break my boundaries by trying to test if I was interested or by calling to tell me he was with someone else. I guess it was his way of trying to invoke some kind of emotional response to get me to open my door.
As I looked back at many of my past relationships, I realized I had pretty good boundaries, but I believed because of my emotional inexperience with relationships, some of my boundaries were a little flimsy. But I can honestly say thanks to the AC and maturity, I have a firm set of boundaries that I don’t even allow my husband to cross. For me, if I had these boundaries set in place when I was dealing with my AC, I could have saved myself a lot of heartache.
I first learned about EUM’s and AC’s at the beginning of the year when dealing with an online EUM relationship. I’ve never been with a guy that “seemingly” was so perfect and treated me so well, only to be left miserable daily because he was also so “busy” and basically managing-down my expectations. I stumbled upon BR and left his ass after 4 months…bullet DODGED.
I vowed to work on myself, and I have been. And then I meet a “nice” guy who seems all kinds of available and even jokes that there’s no such thing as being too available. We didn’t have much in common on the surface, but we did *seem* to have some shared values. Fast-forward 1 month (yes, 1 freakin’ month) and I’m leaving his apartment at 3am in tears (no, we didn’t have sex or do anything beyond kiss). Why did I leave? Why was I in tears? Because I just spent the 24 hours helping him prepare for his last-minute finals (we’re both at university).
Some background: Apparently his first love died (committed suicide) beginning of last year. Boom, explains almost all of the emotional unavailability I witnessed over the downhill of that last week. He become cold, withdrawn, snarky (you’re not funny, you try too hard), flirted with girls in front of me and denied it and stopped being physically affectionate with me.
Looong story short, he procrastinated and blamed everyone around him, and people (professors, friends, ME) hopping around trying to help him study so he passed his classes so he could keep HIS scholarship for basketball, etc. Like it was OUR fault. I created a 100 slide PowerPoint for his class while he played basketball (idiot, i know). I kept asking when I could take a break because I was exhausted (internally telling myself I would dump him the next day) and he would say, “We’re in this together! Don’t you care about me?”
I finally said I can’t do this I need some sleep, curled up in his bed and tried to sleep at (2am) and he’s at his desk pouting and saying I did the whole thing wrong and he can’t study with this. Meanwhile, I’m silently crying in his bed waiting for dawn so I can drive home and be done with him. It must’ve been when he kept saying you did this all wrong that made me just LOSE my sh*t! How DARE he?!?! That was a damned-good powerpoint and not even my class and he’s going to complain??? DONE. I jumped up and out of bed grabbed my shit and MY laptop (which he needed because it had the powerpoint on it) and gave him the REAL and then I left.
…The saga continues…
Saga continued…
I felt elated at having been action-based instead of words based. I saw red flag behavior and removed myself after a week, instead of months, years, etc. I’m 25 at university (getting life together), so I was older than him and I have a history of EUM relationships and AC’s that I’m trying to learn from.
I woke up to this email the next day:
“Let me first start off by saying that I think you deserve someone incredibly special and someone who will make you feel like you’re the most important girl in the world. I have seen that kind of potential in you since I first met you and I still do.
I realize you’re giving me an oppurtunity to be involved in your life and the truth is I do feel lucky to have met you . I once told you that I mean everything that I say and will never tell someone something souly based off of my benefit or because it’s what they want to hear. I’m sorry if it seems like I lead you on only for you to be disappointed in my actions. I do really like being around you, and I blame myself for not making you happier around me lately . You’re an incredible person to help me the way that you did yesterday and just to be spending time with me the way that you do . I know last night you finally just got to your limit with me and I’m not mad at you at all , only myself . I just wish we could be around eachother and just be 100% comfortable with one another . It’s true that I’m weird it’s true that I don’t communicate well it’s true that I’m hard to understand, MissDoingIt . You’re right maybe I’m not good at this whole relationship affection type thing because of my past and my oh so high expectations for women …I want to be as honest with you as possible and I won’t ever give up on our friendship as long as you don’t. I don’t mean to hurt you and I don’t want to. I want you to understand that …. Hopefully we can continue to keep getting to know each other and understand each other better… Again, thank you so much didn’t mean to be so selfish. I notice everything you do.”
That’s BAD right? Like a whole lot of projection and what is that last line “I notice everything you do?” What is THAT? lol
That was over a week ago and I blocked his phone # and went radio silent. But then he began to email me I miss you blah blah unblock me number, let me explain. I finally gave in and sent a message setting him straight with a link to Baggage Reclaim.
He called me from a number I didn’t recognize (that’s why I picked up) and we ended up talking for an hour or so. I was like, no woman will ever be good enough for you because you’ve built your dead ex girlfriend in your head as some ideal woman and who can compete against a dead girl? You did it because you never want to let anyone in your heart again so you can never hurt like you’ve because of her. He says I’m right (I know I’m right) but the problem is now I’m getting a Florence in my mind.
I’ve still blocked him. I’ve filtered his emails to spam. It’s taking all of my will power to stay in that mad moment so I don’t give into him and become apart of his harem (yes, he has one of those…a gaggle of goose-silly girls who feel sorry for the handsome basketball *star* player who lost his one true love).
Please ladies I need you to respond and tell me to stay away, to stay strong and to NOT give into him. I feel sorry for him but it’s not problem. He teeters on the edge of my boundaries because besides that one week, he treated me exactly the way I know I deserve to be treated. But that one week was enough to give me a glimpse of who this person may really be…
Help lovelies
*sighs* lots of typos but you get what I mean ( ;
**getting all Florence (Nightingale) in my mind
Nat,
Thank you so much for another excellent post. I just got off of the telephone with someone and I will send this post to them.
Glad your neck and shoulders are better. I had almost four months of constant pain in my shoulder from stress when writing my book. The pain would not go away despite going to the chiropractor, massage, Yoga. Now that the stress is gone, I am better.
I use something I call “time-out” with relatives or friends who ignore my boundaries. I don’t say time-out to them I just DO time out. I put major distance, between us. I don’t call, don’t visit, and I am busy when they want to visit or talk on the telephone.
I went on a couple of dates with a man who was pleasant enough but it was very clear he had no intentions of even thinking about my boundaries. His agenda was only concerned with what I could do for him. One evening I invited him to my house to listen to music. He asked me to play song after song that he liked. He wouldn’t even think of asking me why kind of music I liked. When I offered and played a song that I liked, he promptly fell asleep. He had no interest in me or what I liked. I am happy to say I refused to date him after that. Although music is not a big deal, it told me everything about him. There was no room for me in the relationship. When I told him I didn’t think we were suited together. It was as if I had said nothing. For everything I said about why it was over, he countered why we made a good couple. I finally had to stop answering his calls. I have a trick on my cell phone. When it is someone who I shouldn’t talk to, instead of their name I put, “DO NOT ANSWER”. This helps me to not answer their calls. He eventually stopped calling. I turned on my security alarm in my home, just in case he was a stalker. Keeping boundaries, as you have said Nat, can be very difficult.
Oh my…i understand totally….
I have just come on this site because i knew i would find something posted on boundaries as I am facing this with a new friend i have just met.
They seem to think that my country cottage is somewhere they can flock to when theyre bored or pissed at where theyre living and stay the night, even twice weekly. They also are under the dellusion that my car and time is there for them to nip take them to the shops or pick them up when they miss a bus or train, and to also drop them off 12 miles away when they want to go home.
Anyhoo….its come to a head last night when this friend stayed. They put on an album for me to listen to…it was cool. Then I put an album of mine on for them to listen to. My album played one song and the next one i thought ‘this wasnt on there’ …turns out this friend had switched mine off, put another of what they wanted just like that.
Now for me, when I go to a friends house and they play their music, I like to listen as its part of who they are, and their character and its part of the experience of going to their house…its why I go. So for me, this friend doesnt want to experience who i am, what my tastes are, or the vibe I create in my get together, but is just bored and wants some stimulation in a different setting and looking to outside sources ie me, instead of looking within herself. Sorry, but Im not that kinda friend you can use up. Eyes open now and am confident bullshit barometer is bang on.
If they are not interested in what makes you who you are Pamela, they will not care about your feelings (as he and my friend shown) You didnt continue because you listened to your own BS barometer and put validation in your own feelings and self respect. When we finally love ourselves and are prepared to bail, it is a big corner turned. We dont need or even want validation from anybody else, and theres such a sense of freedom and peace and sooo much self lurve, the alternative jus seems like some weird, silly movie! x
My ex husband is passive aggressive who appears compliant and has no boundaries for himself. Believe it or not I always thought he was cool with things that made me uneasy…he would say…well I don’t mind if you chat to complete strangers about my personal affairs, go into my personal things or onto my computer whenever. I DID mind about these things for myself but always felt like I was being petty or too rigid when I brought these things up because it didn’t bother him. He also tried to say that we had a “difference of opinion” about boundaries when he didn’t respect mine which justified his behaviour (to himself) It was Natalie who pointed out that not respecting another person’s boundaries is NOT a difference of opinion but a basic lack of respect. The fact that he had no boundaries was a HUGE red flag which I now understand but didn’t at the time. It actually caused a lot of conflict because my kids soon learned that they could do whatever with him and it didn’t matter because he always went along…but when they did this with me I had clear standards and boundaries.
I am alive to say that living with passive aggressive people who play the victim which they usually do is really difficult to spot – it is a “skill” learned and refined since childhood and it is crazy making. I was always managed down and crumbs thrown my way, and seeming understanding and the good intentions….which made me try to dismiss my uneasiness and get back on the train.
Yes passive aggression is crazy making. I didn’t even properly understand it until quite recently, and now realise how devastating it is and how much it explains. The passive aggressor is the ‘victim’, so easy-going and just doing their thing, while we’re being so ‘demanding’ and ‘needy’! It brings out the worst in everyone.
I just had a strange experience reading a novel about someone who grew up in a household of fiery arguments, sometimes even violence, and a part of me thought, at least they were passionate and loving to each other at other times, and would say sorry. Though saying that, passive aggressors in my life have flared up and been scary at times too, though not said sorry, since it’s always someone else’s fault!
That was meant for Espresso 🙂
When I think of all the psychological issues people can have, passive aggressives have to be my least favorite. It’s exhausting to try to keep the bullshit and truth sorted out and if you don’t save e-mail and/or take notes, they can talk you into believing they have photographic memories and your advancing senility makes you forget everything they said or did.
Passive aggressives turn you into amateur detectives because they always seem to have something shady going on in their lives. They were made for Internet romance…
I love all your posts but this one compelled me to comment. As I read it, my head was nearly bobbing off my neck as I related to every point you made. “…someone who’s been hovering near the threshold will remind you of what they feel are their good deeds and intentions rather than acknowledge the fact that they’ve gone over the line.” and “…they may act as though they’ve amassed the credits to do so because they have been behaving themselves”
Is this ever true! My ex was chronically late for nearly everything, starting on our first date. I was so blinded by infatuation at the time that I hardly got upset when he was even late picking me up to take me to the airport (I missed my flight!). One night we were to take his teenage son and his friend to a monster truck show. I drove through a blizzard during my lunch break to purchase the tickets, left work early to run home, feed and let out the dog and get to the restaurant where we had reservations before the show only to wait for 20 minutes (we were on a tight timeline already) for him and the boys to finally show up. Afterwards I told him I felt disrespected by his lateness as if my time wasn’t important and he had the gall to tell me I should have been happy that we were working as a “team” to provide a fun night for the boys. His job was to pick up the boys at school and take them to the restaurant and mine was to get the tickets and “hold” the table. The restaurant held the table, we had a reservation. All I wanted was a simple apology and wouldn’t give me that. Months later he was late with his son to join me for my first company family outing at a new job. I waited outside the stands, tickets in hand while my coworkers were already in the private box eating and mingling. When they finally showed up 25 minutes late and I expressed my disappointment, he replied “I guess I shouldn’t have run that errand for you then” referring to something he had done for me that morning that in no way should have impacted them arriving at the ballpark on time. In other words, the “good deeds” he did for me should have made up for the fact he was once again, late.
He consistently crossed my boundaries as far as yelling and arguing. I would ask him to stop yelling and let’s revisit this another time when we have cooler heads, and he repeatedly would continue the dialogue. He would even raise his voice in public to me, including making a very personal comment right in front of a waitress as she approached our table and was clearly within earshot. I’m ashamed to admit that one evening while we were at a bar, he was upset about something (who knows even what it was anymore) and left the bar. I went to the coatroom to get my jacket to follow him out and leave and a complete stranger approached me and said “You don’t have to let anyone talk to you like that, you know that right?” How humiliating. And yet when I mentioned this incident to him in subsequent boundary affirming conversations, he would tell me he hasn’t yelled like that in a long time (which wasn’t true).
The final straw for me (as if this already shouldn’t have been enough) is when he started lying to me. I uncovered one relatively benign lie for which he did say he was sorry but then I continued to find things here and there he would lie about until the ultimate BIG lie that I couldn’t get past. Was he sorry for that one? First he denied, then he eventually started telling me little bits of truth as I continued to press him in future conversations. Finally, he told me that he didn’t mean to lie, it was a “reaction” to how I approach him on things. “Where have they been difficult but not admitting that they are and then trying to put that on you?” I’ll be the first to admit I am a passionate person, but with this particular lie I gave him nearly 6 months of time to come clean on his own with only occasional inquiries from me. But it’s my fault he lied?
Sorry for the vent, I just really wanted to say thank you for this, it really spoke to me! You do amazing work.
Dear Kelly
Someone can only be consistently late if you consistently wait on them. I have lived in a country where it is normal to be late and no one gets pissed if you are the late one, in that particular case I had to adapt by interpreting 10am as 10.30am, and the problem was solved (these were friends who other than being late were really nice people). Unfortunately, I brought this habit back with me to Northern Europe, and I had to re-attune subito! Lol. The way we assert our boundaries should be in tune, not out of touch, with our knowledge of certain situations. In your case you are dealing with a Mr. Late coupled with a plethora of despicable behaviours. The BIG LIE was the logical follow up to his already highly successful boundary-busting acts. His cruel and degrading comments, followed by storming off are making you retract from yourself even more. If deep down you believe those negative things about yourself, then you will continue to run after this guy and seek validation from him, that you are not these negative things, because you are unable right now, in your vulnerable state, to accept yourself. This is why you ran after him that night. The comment of the stranger was caring, not humiliating, and it was meant for your ears, not for those of Mr.Late AC.
Kelly, please stay away from this man and try to focus more on your own issues, and what draws you to this abusive man in the first place. Once “unhooked” (ACs, are like addictions sometimes), you will no longer feel the need to vent about him, and will find yourself on a healthier path towards self-fulfillment. The less you focus on him, the speedier your recovery will be.
Sorry Kelly, I mis-read your comment a bit, you WERE dealing with a Mr. Late AC. I hope enough time has passed and that you are feeling much better!
RP
Thanks for your thoughtful comments, RP. You’re absolutely right that someone can only be consistently late if you allow it. I do realize it’s a bit of a personality/cultural thing and I tend to be of the “if you’re not early, you’re late” mindset, but in the case of my ex, his lateness was causing issues not only in our relationship but with his job and other commitments. Had this been my only concern with him, I probably would have just dealt with it (the way his mother told me she just lives with it) but as I went on to explain, there were other issues that made the relationship toxic.
I agree the comment from the stranger was caring, and I really appreciated it. I felt humiliated only because I was choosing to be in a relationship with someone who had anger management and self-control issues and I was tolerating abuse. That incident was early on in our three year relationship but now, six months post-break up, I’m reminded of how things weren’t very rosy even in the beginning during our “honeymoon period”. I am working on my self-esteem and my own issues. I am improving every day as far as focusing on myself as my thoughts of him enter my rearview mirror, but here and there they rear their ugly head. Those hooks are hard to remove. It’s definitely like an addiction. In fact, I would urge anyone who can relate to read “How to Break Your Addiction to a Person” by Howard Halpern. It really helped me strengthen my resolve to end things with him. I would be lying if I said I didn’t still miss him and my “stepson” (crazy as that sounds) but it’s no longer a desperate, anxious withdrawal as I’m starting to find peace. 40 days no contact today.
Thanks again, RC 🙂
Kelly
OMG your relationship sounds like the one I am currently in and trying to end. They covertly blame you and twist things around to confuse you. They guilt trip you into thinking they must be right and you are in fact always wrong. They lie to you and then wonder why you are angry and question them. They think you should forgive and forget.
It sucks really. I havent gone NC but we havent seen each other in 3 wks. i am trying. I feel very alone and am scared that when I do meet someone else they will be worse then the last guy.
Hang in there Sissy. It can be so hard to move on, even once you’ve decided to. As I mentioned in my comment to RP, I would suggest reading “How to Break Your Addiction to a Person” by Howard Halpern. It was a port in the storm for me! If you do meet someone who is worse than this guy, you’ll know from experience what you need to do. Best wishes to you.
Kelly,
I just ordered that book. Thank you for the recommendation. I love to read books like this. I have read ALL of Natalie’s books and they are fantastic!
I also took her Self Esteem class and learned a lot.
I’m glad yr otseopath fixed yr back & neck Nat. Chronic pain in these areas is awful to live with 🙂
Re this post, it reminds me of the woman who befriended me in a hard n fast fashion a few yrs bk but turned out to be a manipulative user (that I also strongly suspect has untreated bi-polar disordee). I’ve been free of her for over 18 mths now & was initially grateful for the friendship as we both own homes in my suburb (she was renting here previously), & my friends are mostly all based an hour away across town, in the inner city area I’m originally from. (Stupid me btw coached her buy her 1st home buyer property when she came into what I now realise was an undeserved inheritance she swindled out of her ex’s parents. Idiot in hindsight I am!)
This woman did many things that were NQR but always with a huge cheery smile causing me to wonder if I was misinterpreting what turned out to be her boundary busting behaviour. I wasn’t. She WAS a manipulative user.
I’ve felt so much better since moving on from that ‘friendship’. I saw her at a mutual event a cpl of weeks back. She had the audacity to seat herself right next to me as if everything was completely fine & our friendship continued (I’ve had ZERO contact with her since I moved on after two previous attempts to address her behaviour with both failed!) I replied with a polite hello (only so as not to be rude in a social setting) when she gushed her usual BS greeting & just ignored her after this.
I could tell afterwards she was rattled. Good. No-body treats me like shite & gets away with it!
This woman I would add was the Queen of just below the line, borderline boundary busting. It was awful to be on the receiving end of! I’m so glad I eventually moved on! With all due respect she’s been welfare dependent her entire 55 years of life! I on the other hand have worked damned hard (edctn & employmnt wise) for every single thing I have! No more trying to help these wounded birds for me! Lesson learned!! 😀
MissDoingIt- (Doing this by phone so I apologize for typos and place this gets posted)
What struck me about your situation isn’t the guy but you. Let’s see…you were up amost all night doing his work for him and asked him when you could tske a break?? Oh, honey, your problems run deeper than dating an AC. First and foremost, if you are volunteering to do all the work for somebody, you get to dictate when you work and when you take a break or breaks (plural) Secondly, why oh why are you doing the work for somebody who’s capable of doing his own work? Why are you coddling a grownup??
This reply isn’t to embarrass you but to help you recognize where perhaps you need to make some changes within yourself. You aren’t doing him any favors by babying him nor are you respecting him by treating him as a baby who can’t work because he wsnts to play. More importantly, you aren’t respecting yourself by being hisdoormat. Please take your eyes off of him and put them on yourself. Your mind, your time, your heart, your body are valuable but who will know that if you treat yourself as a free product?
Rosie,
Exactly right. And actually one of the hardest things about being a parent is supporting them to do homework, training them to do chores and generally teaching them to look after themselves and be responsible. The easy thing is to do it for them.
It’s not so much that the AC is a boundary buster but that you MissDoingIt did not set appropriate boundaries in place. If he has been pleasanter to you, would you have continued doing his work for him? Would you have got him a qualification he did not earn? What kind of relationship would that be? He should have been going all out to please you, a man will do that when he’s really keen on someone. Let one of his harem have him, he’s a booby prize.
Thank you for your replies! Yes, I do have issues with boundaries. I guess I justified helping him because he had helped me with no questions asked when my computer crashed and stayed up with me to help fix it. I thought I would return the favor, but it didn’t feel like he appreciated it.
I will admit that we did rush-in to a relationship (by spending too much time together) for just meeting, even though there was no sex, etc. In the one convo we did have, he said he felt like we were going too fast and I agreed, but then I said make no mistake Mr.NotDoingIt, YOU are the one who pursued ME. You are the one who called and wanted to spend all this time with me, and now you want to complain that it was too much? Goal posts–they’re ever changing with these men…
That day was horrible, I feel like all of my boundaries were crossed and I was in nightmare land. I tried to up and leave him several times and say, “F-you, do your own work!” But I just felt so sorry for him and in my mind I kept saying, just get through today and leave his ass tomorrow. And well I did just that (still no contact) I let it go on longer (even for a day) than it should have.
By the end of the night I felt like an abused wife who’s very soul was crushed, I felt like a hollow shell. It was sad and I’m not ashamed, but just sad at how quickly I reverted back to bad behavior. But I must’ve had a secret agenda too, like, let’s see how much of an ass clown you really are so my leaving you will be that much easier…but in doing that I get treated poorly.
And you’re also right, would I have still helped him with his studying had he been nice? Yes. I would have. And I guess that’s bad, even though I felt it was just returning the favor ):
Thank you–I replied below too.
But wait–does that mean I’m in the wrong in this situation? Because that’s where I feel my weakness lies and may even make me talk to him again. If I was actually in the wrong and because I’m so confused, made him the bad guy.
Clarification needed \ :
MissDoingit
That wasn’t what I meant. More why are you bending over backwards for someone who isn’t worth it, doesn’t appreciate it etc. He’s just not that special.
As I see it, you both contributed to this situation. If he wants an education, he needs to be a big boy and do his schoolwork. It’s HIS work, and nobody’s responsibility but his. If someone is kind enough to help him, then he should be damned grateful, instead of acting like a spoiled, whiny baby.
Your part? You wanted to be a friend and help out, which is a lovely quality. But maybe it’s not the best idea to do that much of a project for someone else. He needs to do it so that he can learn, and just be responsible. You also did not look out for your own comfort and rights. If you are doing a big favor like that, you have the right to do as much or as little as you feel like doing. You have the right to be treated with respect and appreciation. You have the right to take breaks whenever you want, and stop whenever you want. If he doesn’t like it, then he should do his own effing work.
I say this because I don’t look out for me as often as I should either. It has been my habit to give too much to people who don’t appreciate it. It’s automatic, like I don’t even see that there is an option to say no. I don’t think you or I are “bad,” or “wrong” for this. We have, perhaps, some blind spots, some patterns of thinking that don’t serve us well. But the good news is that we can start looking at how we think and behave, and start noticing and changing our thinking and actions. There will always be selfish people in the world. We can’t change them, but we CAN change how we respond to them.
Miss,
You were only with this dude for one month. In that short time, he has treated you pretty poorly. He sounds as if he has many issues with life, yet you’re questioning yourself. Why?????
I believe you need to address your issues with boundaries, as well as, the type of men you may be attracted to – under achiever who has nothing offer.
Miss, by blaming yourself, you are excusing his behavior, and allowing an in for him into your life. You know deep down that this guy is a loser, please address your own issues, so that you don’t end up with this type of clown again.
My comments are coming for a good place. Please do not contact this man again!
Ladies–
Thank you for all your comments. I have once again blocked his number and deleted it so I wouldn’t be tempted. All of his emails are being forwarded to my Spam. The more time passes (and I know it hasn’t been long) the less I care or even miss him. I’m no longer blaming myself. Yes, I still have a lot of work to do as to why I keep attracting man-babies, selfish assclowns, but with Natalie’s wisdom and the support I receive here, I’m getting better everyday. At least this AC didn’t turn into a full-blown relationship (he was already talking babies by the end of the year and yet he was still a BABY HIMSELF, lol). Good riddance!
MissDoingIt,
You KNOW the right thing to do for yourself. You just want us to enforce your boundaries for you by asking us to tell you not to contact him. But you have to practice the boundary thing yourself. You have to be a little tough with yourself. That’s the only way you can start trusting yourself. The more you enforce your boundaries, the easier it becomes, the more you trust your decisions and your intuition, and the stronger you get. From trust and action grows confidence in your decisions. I found that the key for me is to not question whether I am ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ in how I feel, or what would someone else do, but to just realize, I don’t give a flip what someone else would do, this isn’t working for ME! Wow, it’s pure freedom when you get to that point.
If you reply to him here and there because you ‘weaken’ it just reinforces to him that he will get to re-engage you if he persists. You have to not respond for longer than the last contact. Or let’s make this easier. If you know this guy is an AC or even an EUM, you have to not respond EVER again!
Ok so how do we stop being “passive aggressive, no boundary people magnets?…I seem to be one of them. Does that also mean that perhaps, I too have boundary issues? Obviously, there was trace of this in my family growing up so I likely a bit “comfortable” with the type, which is unfortunate. How do we protect ourselves with out being exhaustingly on guard all the time. Often times we realize to late and we are already hooked in…thoughts?
Desuhana
The first thing to do is know what your boundaries are and what aspects/behaviors of a person are not acceptable. If you are looking for marriage, you want to bail on anyone that says they are looking for casual, don’t wanna be married again, or have been multiply divorced. Some other useful things are no addictions, criminal record unless its part of an environmental action (closing a mine by chaining oneself to the gates is good, DUIs, assault, dealing drugs, domestic violence are to be avoided), any hint of financial irresponsibility, hints of psychological problems, serious red flags. Also knowing what does and doesn’t work for you in another is good: some folks like family types, some don’t, some of us run ultras, some are couch potatoes, some are into TV, some read. None of these folks are good or bad, just different and can be assets or red flags depending on who you are. What are you very vulnerable to? Sometimes folks accept people they never would normally because they’re in a tough place. Extreme loneliness, stress, low self esteem, can blind us to behaviors we’d normally avoid. Where do you socialize? Socialize only in places where there is a likelihood of healthy folk present. It always astounds me that so many women/men meet up with folks in bars. The only thing one finds in a bar are folks that are into drinking. Charity events, races, festivals, tend to attract more well rounded folk. As to being on our guard,to a point, one needs to be. Peopke unfold over time. One will always be approached by problem children; they’re in the grocery, the workplace, everywhere. Our job IS to keep our Spidey senses working and not to emotionally invest too soon. If someone does lie, cheat, hurt you in any way or busts any boundary repeatedly, then total NC is the only answer. Someone hurts me, they are no longer welcome in my personal space, pi n any way. No being present in my home, I will not talk to you at any event, I will turn my back on you in public. Otherwise some people get the impression that you no longer think hurting you was bad and that they can go back to square one as though the hurt never existed. My theory of life is that if I hurt or annoy someone, I own it, make amends if possible and at least have the decency to apologize. A lot of people don’t do so and must be avoided.
Love this site and comments, ladies, you are smart to get these toxic men out of your lives. It took me 50 years, 2 bad marriages and many toxic relationships to realize I deserved better. Many men and/or so called friends will use you for their own selfish egos. This site is outstanding at putting a name to the dysfunction. You don’t need a toxic relationship/friendship to live a mentally healthy life. I am proof of that. Got a dog 5 years ago after breast cancer, and the best relationship ever. Unconditional love, and all he expects (dog) is to be fed and loved. What a concept. He is at my side in the good days and the bad.
What a joy dogs are. Mine means the world to me.
Dear girls and boys, I have to share something with you. I’ve just been offered amazing job! The thing is that I’m currently employed at an educational institution and I’ve been miserable there for a very long time. Recently I’ve realised that I’m in a commitment-phobic relationship with my employer and my boss. There’s no strong, but kind of commitment (I don’t really have permanent work contract but “rolling” one which gets revised every few years, so I better behave otherwise I get dumped) – my employer certainly knows how to manage my expectations. I keep my mouth shut, my head down and work hard to please. But of course, my boss can’t be pleased and even though I’ve got educational degrees from some of the world’s greatest universities, I’m never ”good enough” (I work at good but not excellent institution). When I ask for more clarity my boss fast forwards and future fakes, all words and no action. If I complain I risk being labelled as “needy” and “difficult” employee. And there are many subtle ways in which my employer keeps control over my career.
Then I said enough is enough, went on the internet, browsed around and very soon came across interesting job advert, applied for it, went through something like seven rounds of interviews and got permanent job at a centre of excellence which is much better paid than my present one! I’ve realised that there are so many jobs around for a people of my profile and that my knowledge and experience are highly appreciated.
The same day that i got my job offer something else happened. Let’s say that I play piano. About a year ago I had piano teacher who seriously flirted with me, led me on but also blew hot and cold (I came to BR because of him, thank you so much a**hole). I wasn’t sure how the things stood so after two months I decided to make myself available to him so we wouldn’t be in pupil-teacher power relationship. We still continued to play in the same orchestra. Two weeks after me becoming available he disappeared for more than half a year without a warning or explanation. I got the message, continued to play but in another orchestra and enjoyed the music. After all, he wasn’t my first AC, I’ve got a very long history with them.
He then reappeared after all this time and emailed me offering me piano lessons as if nothing had happened. As it was I really wanted more practice to bring my skills on a higher level. However, I had no intention to reward him by going back to him just because he needed money, especially after I found out that all the time he’d heavily flirted with me he’d had a girlfriend who even played in the same orchestra! I didn’t even respond to his email and as I no longer played in the same orchestra, didn’t see him either. So I hired another piano teacher. The same day that I got my job offer I also bumped into my ex-teacher while practicing with my new one. My old teacher didn’t even want to look at me, didn’t acknowledge me, was visibly angry and soon left. Sorry for being this shallow and petty but I was very amused because obviously he was annoyed by me and my new teacher, meaning if he was angry he wasn’t indifferent. So, NC works and it’s probably not only the best way to protect yourself and your boundaries, but it’s also probably the only way you might get to an AC/ EUM.
Thank to all of you who’ve contributed to this blog, your insightful comments and talking about your experiences helped me to far greater clarity. Don’t sell yourself short, whether you’re a professional or a cleaning lady. There’re plenty of jobs around where they will appreciate you and be happy to employ you. There are so many piano teachers, many of them actually better than the old ones. NC works! When you think it doesn’t or it becomes hard, do come back and let BR community to comfort you. Have hope and keep going! We’ll get there eventually. 🙂
Mephista
That’s awesome. Yep, workplace stuff that goes south is the worst kind because you rarely can stay 100% NC without being very obvious to others and raising a lot of questions. Good luck in your new position. Just being able to truly stay NC is a huge relief. Since the new job search isn’t working, I am seeking a transfer to another campus within the institution. Not sure about how the living situation would work out but at least I won’t be forced to halve my salary, loose my benefits, etc. In the meantime, I am really upscaling my home to attract out of town, better off buyers and enjoying three months of peace and unstructured time.
Mephista,
Looks like you need to learn a lesson I’ve had to, repeatedly: Don’t mix business with pleasure. It usually turns out to be a big mistake. Having a relationship with your music teacher is inappropriate. The guy was obviously a jerk who only wanted to use you and pop in and out of your life on false pretenses–offering you piano lessons. You gotta know that someone like that you should shut down immediately as soon as he starts acting shifty. I hope you’ve gone NC and he is out of your life. You can loose more than you gain with this type.
Congrats on your new job. Work hard and make sure you keep your head on straight. And no romances on the job!
MissDoingIt- I’m confused. Why do you think you were in the wrong? This guy reminds me of the little 9 mo. old I take care of. He cries & cries, wants to be held when he’s hungry. The moment he’s finished with his food/bottle, he’s off exploring that new, shiny thing over there and I’m no longer important until he gets stuck and needs help climbing down from whatever it is he climbed up on (yes, doctor has said that he is advanced). I don’t pick him up when he’s stuck (most of the time). I help him learn to get down according to what his developmental level will allow. The thing with babies is that their relationship with us isn’t called bonding; it’s called “attachment”. This is because they don’t choose their caregivers. They are dependent upon whomever the permanent people are in their lives who meet their needs.
This guy sounds as if he attaches himself but doesn’t really bond. He sticks around whomever will put up with his nonsense and allow him to be in the child role. Children, after all, aren’t held to the same level of responsibility as we grownups. You may be standing up for yourself verbally but your sticking around sends the message that you are willing to be a permanent caregiver. You may be an angry doormat but a doormat you’ve been.
I believe walking out on him and leaving him to deal with the consequences of his own actions as rhe best thing you could have done for him and for yourself. For the first time,you respected him enough to be a grownup. You respected yourself because your actions and words finslly matched. Good riddence to that”problem child”!
Thank you ladies for all of your comments and cyber support. Although I’ve talked to him since (To make my reasonings for leaving known/providing him with a link to BG), I’ve since cut off all communication. I was searching for an answer but the answer is/was always there…as soon as it doesn’t feel right in my gut, as soon as I start searching outside for clarification and answers, as soon as I feel my sense of self being crossed, it’s WRONG. And the longer I stay just prolongs my misery.
Asshats be gone!
*I mean BR for Baggage Reclaim
This speaks to me on so many levels. When my ex and I broke up…for the second time I felt like I was the one in the wrong. Why couldn’t I just be more reasonable? why did I have to have such high expectations? Why couldn’t I be better?
Reading this made me realise that yes I did have boundaries and they weren’t actually even unreasonable, showing up on time or at all is not unreasonable, being able to see my boyfriend of three years more than twice a week is not unreasonable, talking about the future is not unreasonable, expecting him to help me move house is not unreasonable. I now see that he was being passive aggressive and constantly testing my boundaries. I was very upfront about what I needed and what upset me and he’s always promise to never do it again but always would, and sometimes it seemed like he did it just for the hell of it. Then when I called him out about it he would act like I was crazy and that my expectations were so high, that he was trying his hardest and still it wasn’t good enough for me. It made me doubt myself so many times. I know that the reason I put up with it was because i was insecure. I mean, how could I accept an ultimatum after he asked for us to try things again after we broke up the first time that dictated that we don’t get too intense and only see eachother twice a week, once on a Wednesday or Thursday and second on a Saturday evening and he would stay till Monday morning if able to do so- it was that specific. I feel like screaming at myself “What the hell is wrong with you?!” Why was I respecting his ridiculous boundaries when he never even considered respecting mine?
I’m working with a really evil narc, and I think my increasing self-awareness is my greatest weapon: He has built a file on me; he knows some of my hot buttons, so he tries to bait me into making self-destructive moves.
He’s such of a cold, calculating, manipulative, … monster, who has become one of my greatest teachers. I totally get the purpose of the blue suit and the black pumps. I just want to awaken every morning and kiss ‘it,’ as it reminds me of the sanctity of professionalism, and the true value of a mask against the nefarious. Thanks mom and dad–you were beautiful narcs.
Reminds me of my ex!
My ex had a temper; I thought I was the exception to the rule, but of course I wasn’t. He didn’t lose his temper with me until he did, so I ended the relationship. His temper wasn’t the only deal breaker. He busted allota boundaries when he raged against me.
I reached my limit.
It was as if he had been holding it all in, all the boundaries he had wanted to cross, and now was his chance; he was “on a roll… no stone would be left unturned.”
And I was furious with him for leaving no way back for me: I could never go back to him. I just had to stand there, vomiting up my love for him in favor of my love for ME.
It’s getting better now; he just continues to fade, and I know one day soon, the memories will be harder to remember, and eventually I won’t remember.
No, “love never dies” my love, but I will always choose me.
ME.
Mirror:
Being a narc is bad enough; narcs with tempers can kill you.
Another way to look at a person who hangs just below your boundary line is that they are testing you, either consciously or unconsciously.
A big incident of line crossing/disrespect doesn’t usually come from nowhere, it’s usually the result of the boundary buster having sized you up with smaller impositions and guessed that they can get away with it.
When it comes to those lines, it should take more than just not crossing them for people to stay in your good graces. Good people will usually do this, and you can even see it in codes of ethics for certain prestigious professions that require their practitioners to not only avoid impropriety, but also the appearance of impropriety.
For this reason, I think it’s often a good idea to call people out on the smaller stuff, especially people like coworkers whom you can’t easily get away from. If it’s “not a big deal” to let go, it’s “not a big deal” to talk about.
For me, Mike, the difficulty was the Boundary Buster’s incredible charm. It all seemed so amusing and playful. And I was always left feeling, “What just happened?” Even the smallest shared laugh left me confused, angry and hollow.
Looking back, I fell in love with his public self…the one that was well-crafted. The private man was reprehensible. And when he would boundary bust, Man One would show himself. I had to consciously remind myself, in those brief contacts, that I was interacting with a glacier…95% was below the surface. There was no such thing as light-hearted repartee with him…something deeper and different was always there.
Many of us who have experienced that inauthentic type have lived in a kind of mid-zone…one foot in delicious fantasy and the other in excruciating reality, questioning our own judgement. Those few contacts were so reminiscint of this constant pull, the loss of control, the endless waiting for it to collapse or pan out. That’s the thing with Bounday Busters…they can seriously mess with your head.
Some people get off on busting boundaries. Biologically we are programmed to take risks (it’s the fuel of evolution) and when we do (and don’t die or are spared the experience of serious repercussions), there can be a huge spike in serotonin levels.
The problem is nature did not give us a handbook with this. We have to figure it out. If you are living unaware, you will seek that risk high from boundary busting and or surrounding yourself with shady people.
There is a better way: discernment. Be vulnerable. Be whatever it is that you want. A singer, an anthropologist, a designer, etc.
Get ready to ride the waves of boredom, thrill, loneliness, and people without the mess of self-inflicted chaos.
Seek nature, food, and people in an explorative way. So many people stay in a comfortable cocoon of their own making and never come out in favor of entertaining themselves with sordid drama via pursuit of the wrong things.
“Just like an ex who woos you back with big promises and grand gestures and then gradually eases right back to whatever they were doing that caused the original issues and had sworn was going to change, the person who hovers below the threshold (right below your line) may tow the line for a while and then gradually start edging their way up to the threshold.” My ex to a T. He was the type of person who, when I told him that he couldn’t contact a certain — it was the absolute rule I had if we were to get back together, something he’d been begging me for for months — he friended her on social media. When I complained, he said “Oh that? That’s just social media. That’s not ‘contact'” Err, yeah. He’d do stuff like that all the time.
For me the big busting boundary violation was to do with issues around time. He (EUM) was always too busy, never had time, yet if he wanted to talk for six boring indulgent hours, I had to listen. ..
My dad was very stingy with his time, especially when a football match was to be played, watched or talked about.
I internalized that this meant, I simply wasn’t good enough, worth the time. I then manifested this dynamic with limited ass clown silly men. I now give myself lots of time, and those limited blokes, sod all seconds.
Diane,
I have found Mr Unavailables have the wackiest anti-logic that they swear by. But you know, I guess it’s no worse than the faulty reasoning we use to stay with them.
I haven’t commented in quite awhile, but I felt compelled to respond to a very intelligent, well-reasoned comment I read, part of which warned readers away from dating anyone “with any hint of a psychological problem.” While everyone has their own preferences and guidelines around what they consider healthy and attractive, I feel compelled to reply to this statement, as I’ve seen others like it echo a similar sense of stigma towards those with mental health issues. I may be unreasonably biased, since I work in human services and I’ve seen many individuals overcome unbearable challenges and go on to live happy and productive lives, but writing off anyone with a *hint* of psychological problems seems both unfair and unkind. I once had a very fulfilling relationship with a man who was diagnosed bi-polar. With the benefit of hind sight and life experience, I’m now attracted to a very different kind of partner, but I think the relevant questions to be asked in this situation are: (1) to what extent is the prospective romantic partner disabled by his/her condition and (2) how have they worked to overcome and/or manage their condition in order to live a healthy and productive life. There are lots of people with disabilities that are so minor you might not even recognize them unless that person came forward with their condition on their own. Not everyone is going to do this, especially if they’ve learned to manage their condition to the extent that it no longer has a significant impact on his/her life. An individual with dyslexia who uses it as a crutch to avoid meaningful work, lives on welfare, and has less than a high school education obviously isn’t going to be a suitable romantic prospect. But dyslexia looks a lot different in a person who’s worked hard to overcome the condition, has more than one advanced degrees and is gainfully employed in an administrative position. And what about the social, out-going, active adult who plays several sports in community leagues, works at the Y, and was wrongly diagnosed with ADHD as a teen because it was a “trendy” diagnosis at the time? Obviously, these are hypothetical situations, but they’re all very probable, believe me. I also have to bring up depression here as well, because I would venture to say that a number of the ladies here have dealt with depression (possibly brought on by their relationships with EU men/ACs). Does this automatically disqualify them from having a fulfilling romantic relationship at some point in their lives? I would hope not.
YES YES YES!
Thank you so much for making this point.
I understand that sometimes people are posting to share their hurt and get things off their chest, (I’ve shared my story about the Arseface), but I often find it hard to read rigid comments about mental illness and even ACs because I’ve done the bad things and the dumb things and hurt people.
Since then I’ve regretted and sought counselling and read and learned and worked and dealt with my family of origin issues that lay underneath the bad behaviours and choices that I’ve made. Sometimes people do change, it’s not easy, it takes work and good resources and not everyone will do what it takes but it is unfair and unkind to write off everyone with broad assumptions.
Over the last eighteen months of big challenges I’ve been facing, some of my greatest support has come from my fabulous daughter who is diagnosed as having Borderline Personality Disorder and Bipolar Disorder. I am not diagnosed but based on my daughter’s diagnosis it is likely that I also have a level of Borderline (now Emotional Disregulation).
My daughter faced her mental illness and got ongoing help from very good mental health professionals. She did, and still is doing, the hard work in understanding and managing her illnesses. She is self reflective, honest and open. Her attitude is that ‘I am not responsible for the causes of my mental illness but I am responsible for how I deal with it now’. She is also managing very challenging chronic physical illness, one of which is fibromyalgia. She is inspirational and a wonderful support and I am so very grateful to have her in my life.
She is in a long term relationship with a wonderful man who has social anxiety but is a loving supportive partner. They are both shining examples of imperfect people meeting their challenges and living happy productive lives in a mutually healthy relationship.
Basically it comes back to character and values. And I believe someone who is prepared to put in the work to overcome challenges of mental illness and psychological problems to be healthy in their life and relationships is likely to have good character and share my core values. I think a person like that would be a good partner in a mutually fulfilling romantic relationship.
A label or diagnosis doesn’t define a person, judge on their actions, take your time and do your own work.
Furry White Dogs,
I am SO glad you made this point: “Sometimes people do change, it’s not easy, it takes work and good resources and not everyone will do what it takes but it is unfair and unkind to write off everyone with broad assumptions.”
I was in a relationship with a man whom it would have been very easy to write off as an assclown, and many of my friends and family did just that when he and I were together. I don’t blame them, nor am I going to excuse the way he behaved back then. But he has Rheumatoid Arthritis and was in an immense amount of pain and was on very powerful, toxifying drugs which had a number of negative side-effects. It was hard for me to hear people’s negative opinions of him, as this was someone I knew intimately and loved.
A few months ago, he changed his medication. And in that time, I have also seen him make huge changes in his behaviour and attitude, and just generally I have been able to see the positive improvements in his demeanour. This has been motivated by his own desire to change and improve as a man, and it has not been easy or plain sailing for him, but I have seen him be prepared to do the hard work to overcome his issues.
I think the point is yes, I agree with you. Not everyone is a lost cause, and it is not kind to write people off with labels, whilst expecting mercy for ourselves. I have such enormous respect for people who have the courage to face their own issues and make the effort and try. It is the same journey I am on.
Hi Clare
However I’ve also found that knowing that I’ve changed and believing that therefore others can became a trap in my relationship with the arseface. He reflected back that belief with his own story of learning the hard way through regret and having the shoe on the other foot that made him wake up to his own misdeeds.
And sadly I fell for his words and hadn’t learnt about actions matching words or future faking etc. And to be honest he was such a practiced liar that no one had any idea that he wasn’t what he presented himself to be. His future faking lasted for a couple of years and the deception was practiced past the end.
So I struggle with trying to work out if someone s decent or full of shite. If they are going through a rough patch, as the man in your relationship was, or they are just showing their true colours. I think it would be easier to read if you already had a good knowledge of him built up over time, as I’m assuming is the case for you.
It’s so damn hard to know when to fight and when to fold, if it’s worth hanging in there or if it’s time to step away. If I think on my own journey I have to admit all the work I did was on my own and no one could have influenced the timing, pace or direction.
You said you ‘was in a relationship’, does this mean you are no longer?
Furry White Dogs,
It is difficult to know when to fight and when to fold, and it is far from being an exact science, or one for which there are cut and paste answers. Which is why I always weigh the advice of others, and, rightly or wrongly, I put a lot of store in my own instincts about a person.
I say we “were” in a relationship, because I ended things because I needed to put a bit of distance as his behaviours were hurting me badly at the time, and I needed space and time to myself to do my own soul-searching.
Dated a lot of other guys in the meantime, had coaching and therapy, delved deeply into my own hurts and issues, which is an ongoing journey. We did keep in touch during this time – which is a choice which would not be for everyone – and more recently we have started spending time together as friends. Not in a relationship as yet. But I have been able to see the positive changes in him as a person, ones you cannot fake, and just his whole demeanour is different. I am not rushing back into anything, but I can see this man’s ability to change in front of my very own eyes.
HI Clare,
I’ve been thinking on the fighting or folding and come to the conclusion that if you’re fighting alone then it’s time to step away. I think it comes back to balance, if you are the only person doing the fighting then there is no balance in the relationship and it’s strayed into unhealthy territory.
You also cannot fight another person’s battles for them. This has often been an issue for me, especially when I feel I have greater capability or resources. I’ve been learning, and practicing, how to simply offer a resource or encouragement and step back. I try to remember the phrase “This is mine, that is yours. You deal with yours and I will deal with mine”.
It’s admirable that you were able to choose yourself and end a relationship that was hurting you. It must have been a tough decision but it sounds like you did the right thing and focussed on your own issues and growth. Yes it certainly is an ongoing , and never ending, journey.
How did you manage and deal with staying in touch? I’ve never stayed in touch with an ex, let alone one that hurt me badly. Were you able to really move on and date other guys and be open to a relationship with them (and how did you do that if you did)?