What you’re experiencing here is hinting and aside from it being indirect communication where the person ends up going around the houses and won’t take ownership of what they feel, think, want and need, it’s also a form of passive aggression and what is very often the case, especially with someone who is habitually passive aggressive, is that after you effectively being baited into exactly the reaction or outcome they wanted, not only will they not admit this but they will cling to their passive aggressive stance, claiming that your reaction is exactly why they were not honest. “See, this is why I don’t tell people how I feel or what I think. Look at the way he/she is reacting! They can’t handle the truth.” What the what now?
But here’s where things get extra confusing and problematic: when you won’t take the hint.
Sometimes, we’re too nice for our own good.
When a person keeps acting out and doing the equivalent of pulling down their pants and mooning at your relationship or slinking about as if they’re the teenager who has been grounded and is sulking at you in the hopes you will let them go out, yet you’re still right there trying to be all ‘super nice’ about it, not only will you lose respect for you but so will they.
You will inadvertently underline exactly why they feel that they ‘have’ to behave in this way.
They will then feel guilty about thinking bad things about you or acting out when you’re being so ‘nice’ and forgiving etc, so they’ll reach out or make promises that they cannot keep, so that they can relieve these uncomfortable feelings. Then they will feel resentful because when a person feels as if their conscience has been activated in order for them to comply with another person’s wishes or where they now feel as if they have to oblige themselves, it’s an automatic precursor to resentment.
Each time you do something from a place of guilt and faux obligation, you end up feeling resentful and this always leads to some level of acting out (passive aggression – covert and obstructive means of hinting at aggression while appearing compliant and ‘OK’) if these feelings aren’t acknowledged and an adjustment isn’t made that ensures that you come from a more boundaried place so that you stop taking responsibility for that person’s feelings and behaviour.
This is why it’s so vital to get honest with you about your motivations so that you don’t end up doing things for the wrong reasons such as doing pleasing things for a person who is treating you with less than love, care, trust and respect in the hopes of obligating them to do better by you.
With people pleasing, it’s not so much what you’re doing but why you’re doing it and when you change the why, you stop busting up your own boundaries and using guilt whether it’s your own or others, as the currency to engage with. You stop creating a debt that you’re then expecting others to pay off.
When a person keeps behaving badly and crossing your boundaries, they’re dropping big hints. The mistake is to assume that the hints are all about you; they’re telling you about themselves.
Can’t you see that I don’t give a damn about myself?
Can’t you see that I’m selfish?
Can’t you see that I’m using you?
Can’t you see that you deserve better than this? Why the hell are you accepting this?
They’re almost baiting you in to being ‘not-so-nice’. It’s like, How can you just sit there and take this? What’s your agenda? Get mad or something! Ditch my ass! Don’t tell me that you love and miss me after I just walked all over you. Cut me off so that I can then try to linger in your life trying to re-get your attention. But don’t give it to me even though I’m going to pursue you, because I’m only doing it because my ego is dented now that you see me clearly and have accepted my hints, that I now want you to contradict yourself. I will even act like I’ve changed (but I won’t have) and the moment you take me back and I feel in control, I’ll lose respect for you again. So stick to your guns because I’m a man/woman who doesn’t like himself/herself that much and who doesn’t know what the hell I want. Stick to your guns, respect yourself please and drop me a big fat hint by finding someone else instead of holding on to me in your mind as if I’m The Best Guy/Woman Ever TM. I’m not. Can’t you see that?
Love is not disrespect. Don’t paint a picture of yourself as somebody who will let a person do whatever they want because love respects you and them. It raises each of you up and you protect its integrity by being responsible and accountable and not sheltering each other from showing up and stepping up. You need to be with a grown-up. You need to know that you’re both grown up enough to be honest and that you will call each other out on your BS.
Stop being so there.
Stop trying to nice a person into having some basic decency.
Stop trying to oblige a person into changing so that you don’t have to get uncomfortable and start asking yourself why you’re doing what you’re doing.
Holding on to or chasing after someone who does not respect and cherish you is the fastest way to ensure that not only do you keep you away from a loving relationship but that you also end up out of love and like with yourself.
When a person keeps behaving badly to drop hints about who they are so that you will do the right thing by the situation, that they themselves won’t even acknowledge, don’t pretend that you’re not experiencing what you’re experiencing. Don’t collude with the BS. They are showing you that they are not up for the type of relationship that you’re hoping for.
Don’t keep trying to convince them because you will only end up being unconvinced about who you are and your worth.
Don’t meet hints with more hints via your people pleasing because in your efforts to look like The Good Guy or The Good Girl, you will not only end up feeling bad about yourself but you will sell you short in your efforts to relieve the discomfort you’re experiencing from knowing that you’re continuing in a situation that’s less than befitting of you.
Unless you want to be trodden on, don’t be a doormat. Be the thing that you seek.
Your thoughts?
Don’t forget – if you struggle with boundaries, I run a 30-day project, Embrace Healthy Boundaries which completely shakes up everything you know about boundaries and empowers you to treat you with love, care, trust and respect. Use the code RESPECTME to enjoy 25% off until midnight Sunday 22nd. Or check out The People Pleasing Diet if you have a big pleaser habit.
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I think this is the best post you’ve ever written.
Can’t you see who I am?
Can’t you see that I don’t give a damn about myself?
Can’t you see that I’m selfish?
Can’t you see that I’m using you?
Can’t you see that you deserve better than this? Why the hell are you accepting this?
I finally walked away from someone who was always saying one thing and doing another. I played like it didn’t bother me so much until AFTER A LONG TIME, I met my breaking point. After one more time of his shenanigans, I called him and properly told him in conversation that he can do whatever he wants with his life but I did not like being treated that way (his saying he’d do XYZ and then be late or not do it at all). I said it was painful and that I was done. Couldn’t do it anymore. I told him we don’t need to talk anymore and quit contacting me. He said he respected that. I wished him well and said bye. On one hand I felt proud that I finally had the courage to SAY to him what I’d been stuffing for so long. I felt finally someone was standing up for me. On the other was this sadness of having to accept the reality that this is who/how he is and it wasn’t going to change. He was going to crap all over me as long as I let it continue. So I bailed.
@colororange- Your comment resonated so much with me too.
I’ve had my fair share of emotionally unavailable men who cannot communicate and instead drop hints or shut down every time you want to have an adult conversation with them.
Recently, I have had enough and had told my ex to never contact me ever again. You are so lucky that you had gotten some kind of response from him after you courageously decided to break it off. My ex ignored me for a whole week, after which I had decided enough is enough. I dropped him a text telling him to never contact me again and he did not even respond. He did not say a thing. I don’t feel great at all about not receiving a response but at least now I know he did not care at all.
Serena
I could see if I tangled with him much longer that it would probably end up in a scenario like you described. As hard as it was, I needed to let go. Blocked his number and email address everywhere I could think of. I hope you can stay strong and find your courage and strength to stand on your own. ??
as they say if you roll with pigs you end up smelling like a pig…you decided wisely not to tangle and I congratulate you on making the right decision. I’ve also had to make some similar ones lately as I try to reaffirm my boundaries that were quite broken. It seems a gradual process to rebuild and strength test them. I’m starting to see this behaviour sooner than later and my radar is improving. Great article by the way it really affirmed something that I had just experienced this evening. Stay strong peeps!
Not wanting to judge you, I was where you were x 1000 not so long ago – but sending him a text to say that you won’t contact him (ever again) doesn’t make any sense?
As Nat says elsewhere, any contact will be interpreted as she is still crazy about me. So don’t feel the monster, stop all contact and start healing yourself.
amen! guy/girl dsnt matter..
say what you mean mean what you say…
if you dnt want it done to you? DONT do it to me….
actions speak louder than words…
let go….. its ok to be single, grow, work on yourself….
if somebody wants to be with you they will, period….
love yourself… go foward…. someone better is waiting for you
blessings*strength* courage to all…
remember – All that Glitters isn’t Gold!!!!!
Been there, done that. I wasn’t so nice about it and we didn’t have the opportunity to speak in person or over the phone. I had actually blocked him after he stood me up for the last time using Verizon’s service but it lasted 90 days so I was shocked to receive the out of blue text. I let him have it. This was a pseudo friendship-hopeful romance thing that went on for almost 15 years.
I woke up.
I started letting go.
So what do you do when a guy acts this way, then “goes off the deep end” because you ended it, acts self-destructively and pleads with you to take him back? I’m confused.
You are responsible for your happiness. He is responsible for his.
Hello from over the pond in Canada Nat!
I’ve been reading and listening to you for quite some time now and I enjoy your work. Thank you! I must say this was the most enjoyable read to date. You really wrapped everything up wonderfully and put a nice bow on it. Well done! Over the years we hear from women “men do this” and “men do that”. The door swings both ways. Us men also experience women who are “assclowns”. I feel the truth of the matter is us men simply don’t talk about women’s poor behavior as much as women talk about men’s. Women are so much better at putting it all out there it appears. It’s a good thing!
So many feel they need to turn the other cheek and just show “love”. I say BS. Codependency can be a killer. You are correct…DON’T BE A DOOR MAT people.
My question is this…how much of this behavior is simply poor upbringing and how much of it is psychopathy, border line, narcissism or some other form of psychological issue?
Thanks Nat! Cheers!
assclowns are evrywhere any age ,any gender…
evrythng is a CHOICE, period.
yes, better to go thru some pain&reality an grow then be stuck, discarded….
regardless of upbringing we all hve issues, hurting people hurt people, period….
its a choice…. it will all come BK around, eventually you have to deal with your stuff….
work on yourself EVRYBODY!!!!
DONT settle…..the right love is awaiting you….
choice its all a choice…
it doesn’t really matter, john, don’t bother yourself with this question.
I agree with Mephista…its like pandora’s box when you start to analyse it. It will never make sense and you will just wear your self out. Let go and find an old hobby or something you used to love doing before the invasion of the assclowns 😛
Sometimes integrity feels like a two way sword, if love is in the equation, wanting the best for the other is just natural.. But I see this article and I see how tricky it can be to admit..
Maybe going the way of self integrity is the only way and the rest is dessert topping.
This resonated on so many levels for me. My user ex keeps coming back with nothing to offer me but is practically begging me to jump back into his unavailable game. I faltered initially and engaged again but I finally closed that door and don’t plan on reopening it. I am in a new loving relationship and my ex just wants to sabotage any happiness I have. This time around though I see him clearly for what he is and while it’s hard and it’s finding a whole new way of life for me I chose to love myself this time around. Let him hate himself and be miserable. I am choosing another way….
When work people are rude
Good post, very true 🙂
This is the exact experience I am having in a 18 year marriage. I have finally gotten clear on my situation and just stumbled on your site whilst trying to work my way out of it. Your perspective is helping me to stay the course. He’s definitely trying to pull me back in.
I really needed to read this post today, your timing was perfect again so thank you.
Yesterday was a hard day for me……I had to tell an old friend the reason behind my break up with the EUMM, then I came across some old photos of us, I thought I saw his face in a crowd this morning and kept ‘smelling him’ when men walked past me with their aftershave !!! So it’s been 24 hours of reminders and I literally ached for him, despite me doing really well for a few months now. He has been trying to contact, just as Natalie predicts in this post but I have remained NC, although my weakness is cyber stalking his family ( I know, I know). So even though I kept saying to myself, ‘this too shall pass’, I was struggling with the reminders. Then I read this tonight from you Natalie and my self-respect came flooding back and any nostalgia over the last 24 hours obliterated. So a big thank you. I shall be re-reading this over and over again.
I am hoping for some feedback on how I am handling a situation with my grown daughter (26).
As I am getting healthier and waking up to my patterns I am recognizing that my daughter is similar to my former husband and my father.
My being a doormat/Florence/scapegoat has encouraged her selfish, entitled, and abusive behavior. I didn’t want to accept it. I could see flashes of it hoped that it would change. I would set limits on her, and she hated me for it and found a way to pay me back. As she got older, she got more aggressive and also started using covert emotional abuse. Other times she can be so thoughtful. When it comes to her agenda though, she will do whatever it takes to get her way. I see that now.
She was recently here for a visit and it didn’t go well, I wrote about it here. Bottom line is she expects me to drop everything and help her and doesn’t care what’s going on with me. She comes first. She doesn’t respect me, my feelings, my time, my home, my property.
When I attempt to talk about issues with her she will yell and me/talk over me. She will blame me. She will claim to be the victim. She will tell me how wrong I am. She wants to shut me down – get me in the one-down position. Then she will act like it never happened. And I’m not supposed to be hurt or angry or whatever. She wants to dominate and control me.
It used to work like a charm because I was terrified of anger and she new it! I was also a sucker for the crying bit because I was a softy and felt guilty for hurting her. No boundaries and let my adult child walk all over me.
No more. I’ve been holding my own and she’s using every trick in the book not to hear me, make me wrong, guilty. She doesn’t want to resolve this, she wants to be right.
I finally hung up on her the last time we spoke because I wasn’t taking the abuse. I had previously let her know that I felt guarded with her now because of the way she attacks me. She has called every day since – I didn’t answer. 1st day, no acknowledgement of what’s going on – wants to find out what days she can come for Christmas! 2nd day, again wants to make her arrangements to come for Christmas, let her know when she can come. 3rd day, finally some acknowledgement “I know you are upset with me BUT I need to make my plans for Christmas”. 4th day text…another version of needing to make plans, adding extra pressure. 5th day text. Wants a response so she can make her plans may come earlier or in January.
The thing is I need space. I don’t want to talk to her or see her right now. She wears me down. She is attempting to get me to respond…jump through the hoop and I don’t want to! I’m thinking I am perfectly justified in taking this space and that given the events of the last month, she knows why I’m not responding. She doesn’t like it and is trying to manipulate me into giving in.
I want to make sure that I’m not being unreasonable/mean/passive aggressive by not at least telling her that I need space.
I’d really appreciate your input.
Veracity, I feel for you… It’s hard enough going NC with a shady lover, so I can only imagine how it must feel when the recipient is your own child.
In my humble opinion, you’re doing the best thing. I don’t know where she gets off thinking she can treat her own mother like that! My Mum would’ve sent me back to my maker for that behaviour! However, she’s old enough to know and do better, so seeing as she’s refusing to hear you – freeze her ass out for a few more weeks! She’s already starting to break and its only been a few days.
The longer you hold your ground with her, the sooner she’ll realise that actually, yes she has upset you and she needs to come correct with an apology and amend her ways moving forward.
We all push our luck with our parents, I know I certainly did, but not speaking to, or seeing my mum for almost a year when we fell out in my 20s, made me realise just how much I missed her. We’ll never be best friends like some mothers and daughters, but we have a mutual respect and understanding now where we don’t try to overstep each other’s boundaries.
Keep us posted please. Good luck!
Thanks for your support, Rachel. It is very painful, but necessary. I’ve been avoiding it for a long time, likely because it is so darn painful.
I was hoping that she would grow out of it, that it was youthful willfulness and selfishness. It’s not.
She is refusing to hear me, she disregards me and my limits. I do see my part in this too, it’s not just on her. I have a lot of responsibility in the making of this too, and allowing it to continue.
I am determined to change my part. I’m sticking with the time away I’ve given myself. I believe you’re right, it is going to take the consequence of not having me right there as usual for her to recognize me and my limits. I also think she’ll require me to constantly be on guard.
She called this morning and said if I don’t acknowledge that I’m OK she’s gonna call my work on Monday to check up on me. I think it is just another attempt to manipulate me.
I’m glad you were able to work things out with your mom and have a mutually respectful relationship.
Hi Veracity.
I am just like your daughter in many ways. I have never really respected my mum because she is a doormat. I want to respect her, but she makes it just as hard by insisting on being nice, no matter what.
I cannot speak for your daughter, but only offer my perspective on your situation given my own. The key for me, is when you say you know you have responsibility in it all. My mum has never, ever said she acknowledges her part in what happened to me with my step dad. It would make the world of difference if my mum actually looked me in the eye and allowed herself to be vulnerable and admit she had a part to play, even as a doormat.
I subconsciously act out to break my mum’s super niceness. Not because I am a bitch or nasty, but my soul knows my mum played a passive part in it all and I refuse to give 100% blame to step dad. MY MUM ALLOWED IT and she won’t admit it because it ruptures her vision of her being ‘nice’.
She isn’t. She is a door mat. By her acting all angry at me, passive or aggressive, she just skirts around the elephant in the room. I just want my mum to let me know she failed to protect me. If we have to play a game of ignore the elephant, I become fake and it rubs me the wrong way. She reads that as temperamental, nasty daughter.
I know I am acting this way, but as we live together, and I am determined to keep the frayed fragments of my family together, for I am all she has, I will keep pushing to acknowledge our ills and work on them. No more hidden dirty laundry. I am by no means perfect, but neither is my super nice mum.
I’ve no idea if any of this means a thing to you, but I also feel for your daughter. If she has any ability to self reflect, please don’t give up on her, or your relationship. My mum gave up on me years ago, but I see a bigger vision and I plod on. To change my behaviour and our relationship.
Thanks for reading, Veracity, and I wish you both inner health and peace.
Hi Kate,
I appreciate you sharing your perspective. It does help. I understand the need to have your parent(s) accept responsibility for their failure to protect you –as well as their other choices, whether made consciously or unconsciously. I understand that need because I lived it. Neither one of my parents protected me, they were both abusers. Neither one would take responsibility. They used all sorts of defense mechanisms to protect themselves from the truth, including blaming me.
I didn’t/don’t want to be like them, so I have worked very hard to break the cycle, and see what I’m doing and why. I still have a lot of work to do. I understand my daughter’s need to have me take responsibility for my stuff (failures/mistakes/choices). My daughter has the responsibility to let me know what she needs/wants from me and not assume I know. I cannot read minds. If she’s angry about something, tell me. Don’t punish me in an attempt to get me to figure it out.
I’m now recognizing that I don’t have the power to make my parents see that they were wrong, that they hurt me, that they failed to protect me, etc…
I was so focused on trying to make them see that I lost me.
My daughter is bright and can be self-reflective. She knows she is aggressive and I suspect she knows she is abusive. If she really wants something, she will do whatever it takes to get it. She has no problem trying to get me to doubt myself, undermine my confidence, blame me, lie to me, break my stuff and then tell me it was already broken, use me , exploit me… Can she change? I don’t know. Does she want to change? It does not appear that she does, at least not without a battle. It’s a power struggle. I’m taking mine back.
What I do know is that I have to – and have- shifted from loving (pleasing) and protecting her (which really wasn’t protecting her, I was protecting her from responsibility/facing consequences and me from facing the truth/consequences of who she is) to loving and protecting me.
My doormat/pleasing/scapegoat/martyr roles only keep me trapped in pain, abuse and betrayal. They certainly do not protect me, and they do not change other people’s behavior. The thing is, it took me a very long time to see this and I was working very hard at it. We can be exceptionally good at keeping things from ourselves, even when we are consciously seeking answers!
I haven’t given up on my daughter, but I have created much needed space for myself. Time will tell what she chooses to do. She’s still calling, now twice a day.
I’m sorry that you were not protected from your step father. You deserved to be protected. You sound like a self-reflective young woman who is choosing to recognize and change her behavior and her life. You have a lot of courage. It takes courage to see the truth and to tell the truth. It’s an admirable quality. It also takes courage to be vulnerable. I hope that your relationship with your mum gets better and that she hasn’t really given up on you and just appears to have.
I’m neck deep in some heavy-duty processing over here, so there may be projections in this post. If so, I’m sorry and please disregard.
Thanks again for your feedback and well wishes, Kate. I hope sharing my perspective has helped you in some way. I wish you all the best. Veracity
You are right – you need to take care of you. It probably will be the only way your daughter learns to respect you. I guess I said as much in my first post to you!!
None so strange as folk… ????
Veracity, it’s great that you’re able to acknowledge your part in this also, that’s a major step in trying to mend your relationship with your daughter.
I wish my mother would own up to the fact that she put my step-dad’s needs before those of her own two children, but to this day she remains ignorant. I guess for some women (especially those who are single parents), having a ‘good’ man by your side means more than the well being of your children.
So many things were conveniently swept under the carpet as a child. He was controlling, an oppressor and a bully to boot. Times where my Mum should’ve stepped up and protected me from his aggression, she opted to take a back seat instead and would often side with him for an easy life. This led to years of pent up anger and resentment, until the day arrived when I flipped. I beat him senseless with my shoe and verbally abused him before calling the police to tell them what I did. My Mum was in hospital at the time and he decided to do his ‘man of the house’ routine in her absence (entering my room one morning to pick an argument as he usually does) only this time, my Mum wasn’t there to witness it and I was, unknown to me, pregnant at the time and didn’t appreciate his interference at the age of 20. I saw red. I left the house that day and moved in with my cousin until things had settled down.
Anyway, I digress! The point I’m trying to make is that you appear to be a loving, kind and vigilant parent who has done her best for her only child. Yes, you may have been too willing to please her – hence the behaviour, but it came from a genuine loving place. Your daughter wasn’t exposed to unnecessary trauma growing up (like an evil step-parent), yet still exhibits this controlling/unpleasant behaviour. It’s time she learned the hard way now! It has to be your way or the high way Veracity! Otherwise she will NEVER change, and I do believe that she can/will change but you have to stand firm.
Rachel,
It’s amazing how a simple acknowledgement of the truth can be so healing.
It’s so painful to have our needs and feeling treated as if they do not matter. I’m sorry that your mother hasn’t been willing/able to acknowledge her role(s) to you, whatever they are. I know I had a lot of built up rage over the neglect and abuse. It sounds like you did/do too. Very understandable. I bet that bully doesn’t mess with you now!!
My parents were not very self-aware. So any chance of them acknowledging their part without me broaching the subject was never going to happen. I screwed up the courage to talk to them about it before they passed away. It was a huge risk of (another) rejection and I knew it, but I was at the point where I felt ready, and I sensed time was running out.
I’m very glad that I did it. It didn’t make everything better, but it has aided in my ability to heal.
Have you talked with your mother about how you feel?
Thank you for your kind words of support. She doesn’t act like this with everyone, so I know she can control it – ha! Pun intended! ?
My mind is made up, FIRMLY made up, so she’s SOL if she wants to run me over now!
The question mark was a smiley face – not sure what happened!
Hi, I am going through the same thing with my daughter – She is currently 22. Has made a ton of bad decisions, too long to list and the coup de grace has been her marrying a man (46) last year, that has been under investigation for the murder of his 4th wife. All of his previous wives were under 23, all marriages were short term (two in the same year): and what makes matters worse is my grandchild (not his child – 3 years old) is currently in the mix. She works and supports the household while he keeps my grandchild. If you are a religious woman and I hope you are – stay in prayer and protect your mind. He completely controls the house – I can’t visit. He drops her off at work and picks her up. My grandchild never gets out of his room unless “He” decides. My grandchild is not in church or daycare (so there is no one that can be an advocate for him). What hurts the most, my daughter has been rebellious since her father died and if I say hot – she will say cold. She only listens to him and will not call me. If I call her she will not answer but if I text her – she will respond. She is not my only child – I have two other grown, sane adults. This is my heartbreak.
Hi Sam, I’ve been thinking about your post and I honestly don’t know what to say. It sounds like a terrible situation and It’s understandable that you are upset.
Your daughter is not insane, she is being controlled.
If you think your grandchild is being abused or neglected, you can report anonymously to DFC. How many hours is your granchild stuck in the room? Doesn’t sound healthy. And it sounds frightening about the murders. What do your other children think about the situation?
Veracity, I’m not a parent myself but I’ve been on this planet long enough to see what kind of behaviour is tolerated by parents – particularly mothers, who swallow the abuse, hide in their rooms and cry, and talk about it being the kind of mother-suffering that no one else could ever understand. They clutch their bleeding hearts and roll their tear-filled eyes heavenward in application for divine reward. It’s a pile of BS.
As you can speak to your daughter like an adult, if she’s unpleasant to be around, tell her so as a matter of simple fact not opinion. “No, I don’t want you to come over on Sunday because you were so unpleasant to be around last week.” (note, don’t use the mushy phrases “I thought you were unpleasant” or accusatory “You hurt my feelings” etc — you’ll give her a thread to grab onto and argue with you about — “No I wasn’t! No I didn’t!”). Once she picks her jaw up off the floor at your refusal to be a doormat/punchbag, she’ll start respecting you and thinking twice about how she addresses you. But without you drawing a firm boundary and policing it forevermore, she’ll hurl abuse at you for the rest of your days.
Griselda, Yep, I hear you! That wasn’t me exactly – for me it has been a source of pain and shame. That it was happening and that I was allowing it to happen.
I appreciate the advice, I will do that. You’re so right! I’ve tried to be so careful, to be considerate of her feelings, to use the I feel stuff and she takes it and beats me over the head with it! It’s exhausting.
“But without you drawing a firm boundary and policing it forevermore, she’ll hurl abuse at you for the rest of your days.” Yes. I did not want to see/accept that truth. It breaks my heart. It also scares me, she’s my only child and what might happen if I’m not able to protect myself when I get older.
Like my mom/dad/ex…falsely believing that if I love them enough they’ll change their behavior. Got it. Hurts like hell, but I got it.
right on!!!! love unconditionally. yes…
gng extra mile? they only take advantage an expect guy/girl dsnt matter, age dsnt matter either…
karma…. all that glitters isn’t gold!!!!
lesson learned…. do evrythng for yourself, heal grow…
DONT go dwn the same path again, ever!!!!!!
This article hit the nail on the head.
I had wondered if there was an element of self sabotage by the increasing insanity of my passive-aggressive’s acts and/or omissions.
You fabulously phrased the internal dialogue of the AC/EU/narcissist to the people pleaser who continued moving the line of what should be standards, self-respect and boundaries.
The remedy for all this is to opt out, get boundaries and standards, love one’s self and recover from the people pleasing. That is the only control left for a recovering people pleaser: herself. And boy, is this article an accurate mirror of the people pleaser reflection.
Thank you for the articulation!
Natalie, You are amazing, i feel like you wrote this posting for me personally! Your timing and message was perfect and exactly what i needed to hear, thank you so much to you (and those that comment) for you insights. I have learned about Hallmarks vs Landmarks, Emotionally Unavailable Men and Assclowns, Co-Dependancy, Boundaries, and so much more from you over the past 2 years that i have been dating my “labor of (undeserving) love”. My heart has ached for the women and men that have shared tales of years that they wasted on someone that was wrong for them. I feared that i might be in their shoes a decade from now if i didn’t stand up for myself and expect love, care, trust, and respect from my man on a consistent basis. I have been too nice and too forgiving and it has cost me dearly. I gave our relationship (as an exclusive couple ) until last week, which was our 2 year anniversary of our first date. The occasion was only acknowledged because i wouldn’t allow my boyfriend to ignore it (as he has many other times that should have been special.) It was bittersweet as he clearly only took me to dinner to shut me up. We didn’t celebrate in any other manner. He was not remotely romantic and shut me down when i tried to be. Other things that he has said, done (or not done) these past few days gave made it crystal clear to me, that he will never be able to love me in a healthy manner. He is wasting my time and ultimately, my life (as well as his own!) When he starts to miss me once again and shows up at my door, i will ask for the set of house keys that i gave him. Then, as briefly as possible, tell him that i can’t do this anymore. I respect myself too much to stay with him any longer. (He is a narcissist and i finally understand that all the love in the world won’t fix/save him if he won’t realize that and seek counseling to learn how to love himself. As for me, its time to take my life and self respect back, heal, grow and allow my self to carefully love again. Good luck to all that need to do the same. WE are worth it, DO it NOW! =)
I stumbled upon this page and I swear I needed this today! Finally decided to just walk away tonight and it’s not easy but very necessary because I’m “TIRED” . I know right now I feel strong, but tomorrow I’ll regret it. I’ll say I should have done this.. I could have done that..
You definitely have excellent blogs!
Great words. Praying for continued strength to do what’s best for me.
When I read your comments of the eum “can’t you see who I am, can’t you see that I am selfish, using you” I laughed out loud. You know my ex! One time he said to me have I done enough bad things now that you will end it? I did but not at that time, it still took me a while, because out of the other side of his mouth he would say I love you…… it has been 5 months no contact. I have not started dating yet, and I loved an illusion, I have been rebuilding my life , my self esteem, and trust in my inner voice.i started going to CODA 3 months before I ended it. My mother recently passed so I seem to be going through a parallel grieving process. I learned by lesser than role from her, so its been at times difficult to sort through my feelings. Ultimately I am responsible for my choices and today I want an equal partner, not one I have to give myself up to have in my life. This was a great post!! It affirmed that I am on the right path!! Thank you, Nat.
Great post Natalie, thank you! This is so true…As I was reading this I was thinking of all the hints my ex was giving me that he was getting tired of me (for whatever reason) and being a jerk. At the time I didn’t think they were hints and ignored them because well, love is blind. I made excuses for the behavior. Maybe he was thinking if he dropped enough hints I’d get the message and leave. The relationship ended and in retrospect I now see these things clear as day! I’ve learned my lesson on when to walk away. This really goes for anything…relationships, friendships, coworkers, family.. I know I am too nice sometimes and I can tell you from experience, it doesn’t get you anywhere.
I resulted into the super-nice attitude when I got involved with separated person. Thinking he might change after the constant Hot and cold treatment tried to be at my best even if the hints are like bombs dropping infront of me. now I tried to escape the predicament by doing NC but it had caused depression. I’m slowly recuperating I hope one day I’ll be well
Let It Die
Feist
Let it die and get out of my mind
We don’t see eye to eye
Or hear ear to ear
Don’t you wish that we could forget that kiss
And see this for what it is
That we’re not in love
The saddest part of a broken heart
Isn’t the ending so much as the start
It was hard to tell just how I felt
To not recognize myself
I started to fade away
And after all it won’t take long to fall in love
Now I know what I don’t want
I learned that with you
The saddest part of a broken heart
Isn’t the ending so much as the start
The tragedy starts from the very first spark
Losing your mind for the sake of your heart
The saddest part of a broken heart
Isn’t the ending so much as the start
That is beautiful.
I’m just seeing daylight myself.
It’s looking pretty amazing.
Listening to a song called Hate Me by Blue October, one of a long list of songs I was drawn to in the healing process (another good one is Skelton by Gabrielle Aplin.
Still in progress really but I’m starting to see what I refused to see before.
I told my friend that I went through 3 months of hell because I wouldn’t admit to myself that I was wrong (about who this person was). Still no explanation… Lost my mind for the sake of my heart for sure, but it does come back if you are open to the blessings in your life and the people who truly care for you and bring you back despite yourself. Feeling blessed today.
I’d like to share, this: remember Nats words, this is not a who wins or loses thing.. So take comfort in the radio silence.. As it is perhaps one of your finest and bravest moments to actually be the one who had the last word.
Why do I say this? Because my perspective is going through this as we speak… And your comment just hit such a chord… I coined a phrase years ago ” there’s just no good timing to end a bad relationship.
Timing when it’s off. It’s just off.
I don’t usually comment, but this was a necessary read for me. I am a recovering codependent/people pleaser. I say recovering – because obviously this is a trait that I am going to have to work at daily. I am currently just out of a relationship again for the 2nd or third time. I am not sure at this point in time, I have lost track. He would blow hot and cold – We would have a great time, then he would proceed with crazy acting behavior. A call was left on my voicemail from his wife (yes, you heard it right) – telling me to not call or text her husband. Supposedly, she lived out of town and they were separated for 12 years. Did I also mention that this is a minister? Mind you, we have been dating for two years. I thought that I had covered all the bases – He showed me his divorce papers. I avoided any conversation that he felt uncomfortable talking about but obviously not the right conversation. Just last week, we had a fight, I told him to get out of my life – he used an excuse to get over to my house and then said something profound, “You know, we can just do what we do – you know- I am game if you are” What he was saying, you took me back before and I was an a-hole; you can do it again. Let’s just have sex and do what we do. I told him “Hell No” I don’t love him and what I can’t understand is why did the relationship last so long. So, I have come to the conclusion that I was holding on because I felt vested. Vested as in a stock portfolio that was experiencing loss and I was waiting on a good year for return. Boy, did I need a wake-up call – No more vesting until someone is willing to invest in Me!
THIS. RIGHT. HERE. I was trying to act in a mature manner towards a guy who rejected me by nodding or saying hello when we’d occasionally run into each other. I was trying my best to be nice to him & show him that there were no hard feelings & that I could take rejection (no conversation just me acknowledging his presence). The last time I ran into him, though, I gave him a polite smile & said hello & all I could see was this look of contempt/cockiness come across his face. It really made my blood boil & after that, I made the decision to simply ignore him the next time we ran into each other. Well, yesterday, I ran into him & did just that. I pretended he didn’t exist even when he walked right past me (which he did on purpose for an ego stroke, I’m guessing). I’m fed up with forcing myself to be nice to people who do not treat me with mutual respect.
This.
This happened most recently with someone I met while their mother was dying. At first he was in hot pursuit. She died a few weeks later and his behaviour totally changed – he wouldn’t be direct but he was all over the place – saying he couldn’t cope with a relationship but wanting to sleep with me when we met. I thought he was grieving and didn’t want to abandon him despite his behaviour. It took months to realise that, grief or not, he was pushing me away because he wanted me to go away, and being supportive despite this was just dragging it out. 20:20 hindsight, eh.
Anyone else who treated me like that would have been ditched immediately, but it was much harder to see clearly because of the circumstances.
Can’t you see who I am?
Can’t you see that I don’t give a damn about myself?
Can’t you see that I’m selfish?
Can’t you see that I’m using you?
Can’t you see that you deserve better than this? Why the hell are you accepting this?
I love this.
I remember being involved with a guy who always tried to push me away. At first I didn’t get it. Even when I would decide to walk away then I’d hear he thinks I hate him then I’d feel bad and be nice to him again thinking maybe I overreacted by walking away.
The last time I saw he was the nicest he’s ever been to me. And I remember watching his mood go down after those 2 days. I could literally see him growing tired of being nice to me. At first I thought it was something I was doing that he was getting tired of then I realized he was tired of me being nice to him so he didn’t have to keep being nice back.
I look back on everything with him and kind of laugh at myself. There were a million chances I could’ve gotten out. I feel lucky that he was pushing me away. Now I recognize when someone else is doing it and I get out immediately.
Any advice out there? I feel like I rush into things too much. Ok so I’ve been separated for nearly 3 years and my husband cheated on me & lied continuously. It’s not been until now I’ve been interested in anyone new. So I started chatting to a guy from work, working together about 2 years and had standard chats until about 3 months ago he mentioned he & his wife have been separated since Jan this year. So we caught up a couple of times & chatted a bit on the phone & slept together yesterday for first time. so a few things I’m not sure if im imagining or are real. Firstly we haven’t gone out anywhere only to his house, the reason for that is a combination of him not suggesting anywhere to go & me having to look after my daughter. Second, last night before sex he said it’s only new for me & I have lots of stuff going on in my head. For me, I quite like him, he seems kind and fun & have similar interests, but I’m worried that I become attached too quickly even before I really know this man. I mean when I start to like someone I feel like I become a little obsessed- maybe it doesn’t seem like that to them, but waiting for them to respond to my txt etc. I feel like I don’t give myself relaxing time to really enjoy the time getting to know someone. Maybe what is happening here is I felt like he kind of wanted a back out plan & that started to upset me. Actually I think that’s what happened- when he changed my plan from going out to going to his house I got very angry / upset. Knowing that in my last relationship I was the one who did all the chasing & this made me crazy. I thought he was looking for someone to get to know & now I’m starting to think maybe he just wants a FWB. Anyway to stop myself worrying I deleted his contact & I guess if he is keen to meet up he will call. I just worry that in my like in general I spend so much time worrying about things & analysing things that I don’t enjoy life. I’ve arranged a dinner out tonight & I’m busy tomorrow so I think this will stop me worrying. I just don’t want to repeat mistakes of the past. I think more of a tough attitude as someone who doesn’t take rubbish would do me well. I’m so glad to have found NML and everyone on Baggage Reclaim, it has just made my life make so much more sense.
Genki
Dates at his house are probably not a good idea. If he has time to see you at his house he has time to see you outside of it. If he’s just seperated from his wife he’s most likely only looking for a FWB. If you really do like this guy you have to relax and play cool. Find things to keep you busy and your mind off of him. Tell yourself you’re having fun and you’ll see where this goes. And take it as it comes.
If he is only into having a FWB that’s up to you to decide to continue but that WILL NOT turn into a relationship. And if he isn’t that interest In you you need to be able to not care and move on to a guy who does. Don’t drag it out longer and get hurt further. There are always plenty of other men. He’s not that special.
Thanks so much hope. That was very helpful! I’ve done quite well with diverting myself this weekend &I also had a long chat last night (instead of going to his house!) and explain FWB is not for me. Thanks again
Sam your post particularly resonated with me.
I was in a relationship with a MM for 4 years. When we met he told me he was going through a divorce and we fell in love. 2 years in we had moved in to our home together and I got a call from his wife telling me he never left her. I kicked him out but he begged me not to give up on him, that he could get a quick divorce and me being ‘too nice’ gradually let him back in to my life (and our home) the following year. I was always suspicious but I listened to what he had to tell me and how hard it was for him going through this divorce and I chose to believe him. He have me his documents too but I still wasn’t sure. Further harassing phone calls from his wife ( he always attributed her making a nuisance of herself with me as her not wanting him to move on) and after a tricky time in my sons life where he made me choose between him and my son I ended it for good. Then I found out the divorce and his house sale documents were fakes. This AC STILL contacts me telling me how sorry he is……how he’s still in love with me and all the things that trigger his memories of me…. blah blah blah. Unbelievable. I only wish I wasn’t so goddamn nice when I found out from his wife the first time and I could’ve saved myself 2 more years of the worst heartbreak.
Nicki,
…the divorce and his house sale documents were fakes.
Sorry I just can’t get over that. The man forged a divorce decree and a property sale deed in order to deceive you further. W.T.F. I’ve heard a lot about the antics of the disordered and experienced some myself, but this has to be one of the very worst. That’s a legally-actionable claim (the tort of deceit) in English courts if you were financially damaged by moving in together under the notion that he was unbound by marriage/property at the time because he showed you ‘papers’.
Genii, I too feel like I rush in to things and I’m desperate not to repeat the mistakes of my past too. I’m ‘kind of’ seeing someone who has his own issues to deal with. This guy was a tower of strength for me through my break up and we’ve had a lot if fun together but he has told me he has got to sort his own shit out and fast because he doesn’t want to lose me (his divorce). He knows what happened to me with my ex obviously and said he doesn’t want to be like my ex so he is transparent about what he’s got to do and is doing. Trouble is, we’ve tried to stay away from each other but we miss each other and feel so much for each other it becomes impossible. I’ve given him a cut off time in which I’ll walk if I don’t see something concrete but now I’m checking up on him, I’m testing him (he’s willing to put up with how far I’ll push him because he knows what I’ve been through) and I too am becoming almost becoming obsessed. With my ex I wanted to be dignified and walk away in silence if I found out I was being duped again. This time I want to be dignified and silent until I know otherwise without stalking him online, without testing him to see how far I can push him before he’ll break. I’m just too bloody impatient for my own good. I need to detach.
I’m experiencing this right now.
My SO who I’ve been with for 11 years though everything is currently doing this to me. The selfish line is one she’s using often. I’ve done the nice thing and tried to show concern over her current behavior, but she’s obviously just acting out. Though, whether it’s to drive me away or drive everyone away I’m not sure.
This isn’t something she’s done the entire relationship either, it’s a brand-new side to her that I’ve never seen before.
After trying the nice guy role for a week, I’m so over it. I’m going to send her away. I can’t deal with someone walking all over me and ignoring me when I’m standing right there trying to talk to them. Coupled with the fact that she was never much of a drinker prior and is now drinking like a fish, getting stumbling drunk for the past few nights.
On one hand, I’m concerned about the behavior and what it might mean if she continues this once she leaves. I mean, sending a budding alcoholic away to a hotel by themselves isn’t really a smart idea. But, on the other hand, I can’t have her continue to walk all over me and treat me like garbage.
Reading this article really reinforced my position that she’s going to be leaving today. I need to stand up for myself and stop being “nice” about everything. She want’s to push me away, well then, so be it.
Nickie I hope everything works out for you. It’s so easy to get tricked, I know as I got tricked many times by my ex, now I look back it all seems so obvious and I wonder how I was tricked at all, but at the time believed what he told me. With this new man, actually now I think of it I haven’t bothered too much yet to try to know for sure that his ex is out of the picture, he said they are separated and that started in Jan.
I’m talking also about becoming obsessed in the early stages of a new relationship to the extent where I think about them continuously, fantasise about our future together very early, don’t listen or spend time truely getting to know them. I think I have just answered my own question. I need to just slow down & listen ask the right questions and not rush into anything. I found tonight that focussing on other things like my daughter and some friends that I was able to divert my focus and really enjoy time not thinking about him.
I just want to ensure my thinking is healthy and that I am spending time doing my due diligence rather than just trying to rush in.
What if the disrespectful person is one of your parents? I’m not really looking for an answer, because the answer is the same, regardless of the relationship. To stop being abused, one must establish firm boundaries. Stop allowing yourself to be treated badly, dismissively, as if your time and well-being do not matter.
In my case, I’ve recently realized I have a textbook “Borderline Personality Disordered” father. I am doing some lightweight care-taking of him after his total knee replacement. He is constantly angry at me, belittling of my opinions, and creates drama and havoc over the smallest issue. Relatives chide me with “Oh, that’s just the way old people are”. No, this is a disordered person who has always displayed these behaviors and from what I read, these behaviors get worse as a person ages.
But I am taking a crash course in boundary setting. I am observing people whose boundaries he does not cross, and learning to change my behavior. This care-taking experience has unearthed some old childhood scenes I had long forgotten. I see how I grew up in a 100% invalidating environment, how I learned to tune-in to others needs as self-defense, why I have little knowledge of my own needs. I’ve been tap-dancing to other people’s tunes for a long time.
My father is an unlikeable man who left some scars on my psyche. But this care-taking experience is promoting self-growth. I have had boundary setting triumphs lately. I am less likely to exercise that reflex to “fix” things in other people’s lives. I do not expect him to treat me better, because he never will. So, boundary setting isn’t about telling the other person what you “will or will not” accept from him. It is about YOU ending contact when the abuser is trying to abuse. I decided I will not be my fathers “beck-and-call” girl, he has to make a list of his needs, and twice a month I will run supermarket errands and do laundry. No more “I need soap” today, “I need cream” yesterday, “I need coffee” the day before yesterday. So today he calls mid-morning because he opened the new tube of denture cream yesterday, but now he can’t find it so he needs another one. I told him that would not be happening today. I plan to go over tomorrow (Sunday), I was just there Wednesday. He petulantly said he’d see me tomorrow, with lots of sarcasm. He’ll survive. He’s got soup, milk, eggs…soft things to eat.
And why did he call me and not my sister? Because she does not answer, nor would she respond to a last minute request to replace something she just bought. She’d tell him to look for the tube he just opened. My sister does not change her plans for anyone.
Hi Elgie,
“I see how I grew up in a 100% invalidating environment, how I learned to tune-in to others needs as self-defense, why I have little knowledge of my own needs. I’ve been tap-dancing to other people’s tunes for a long time. “
That really struck me! While what I grew up with was not as bad as what you describe, it nonetheless left me with a profound belief that my needs and thoughts and feelings have absolutely no value, and that other people — any Joe Schmoe off the street — are automatically “better” than me (smarter, more skilled, knowledgeable, attractive, accomplished, worthy, etc.) and must be deferred to just on general principle.
Your comment triggered my awareness that even though I have recently taken the massive step of freeing myself from an awful marriage, I am still not “seeing” the overall pattern that got me into it in the first place. I now realize that I am still spending a hell of a lot of my time in invalidating environments, i.e., my “day job”, and to a lesser extent, in a new relationship (I know, it’s premature!). Now I keep questioning, “Is it just my own projections that are causing me to feel this way and it’s not actually happening (as opined by the guy I’m seeing), or am I actually receiving invalidating treatment BECAUSE of my own behaviour based on a deeply-entrenched pattern and faulty core beliefs, and the way I am perceived/treated by others will change my self-perception and behaviour evolves?? Looks like I’ve got my work cut out for me…thanks for the insight!
Elgie R, I really like that “she does not change her plans for anyone” I’ve always been very malleable, go with the flow type person but now I can see it’s making my life difficult, rather than easier, in work and at home – when u deviate it makes things more complicated.
Yes, I have my sister to thank for some recent growth. I asked sis to pick Dad up from the hospital on his discharge day because her car sits higher off the ground than mine, and it was better for transporting him after surgery. Did not know for sure if Dad would be released on Thursday, Friday, or Saturday. Sis said any day but Friday, because she bowls on Friday. My reaction to that statement was – How different Sis is. I would be doing all kinds of gyrations trying to make Friday work, such as – “if necessary you can borrow my car, I’ll take yours.” Something. Anything to figure out how to fix Friday.
It also happens that I was asked to do volunteer work on that same Friday, at a museum assignment that I wanted to attend. I was torn about accepting the assignment, not being sure of Dad’s release. When I saw how cavalierly my Sis said Friday was “out”, I made the decision to accept the volunteer gig. It all worked out, because Dad’s release was scheduled for Saturday. I enjoyed my volunteer work and was glad I did not cancel out in anticipation of meeting Dad’s needs. It also turns out that Dad had been told that Saturday was release day, but it was the doctor who told me. Dad was being cagey about his release, saying the docs were just keeping him for the insurance money.
In earlier posts here, I mentioned my mother is textbook NPD. Turns out, according to my research, BPDs and NPDs are attracted to each other, and they do a co-dependent dance when they are together.
I have to say, after dealing with my father these days, I feel more empathy for my NPD mother. For years she thought she could meet his needs, but it was a hopeless situation.
While he was in the hospital, I cleaned his filthy bathroom areas, including the interior of the medicine cabinet. I am so aware of his potential rage that I made sure to put everything back in the same place. I washed his sheets and picked up his strewn underwear and washed them too. I remade his bed and gave him a warm bedspread that I had in storage. I bought him a long shoehorn for putting on shoes. He would not let me install a toilet seat riser, so I returned that to the store.
I half expected him to rage at me about the cleanup, but there’s been no reaction. He’s said nothing about the chores I’ve done. I’m not seeking praise, but somehow, it feels unappreciated to me.
I find that I want to do less and less for him or with him. I don’t want to cook for him – and I like to cook. He has an old analog cabinet TV from the 1960’s that he can’t turn off (or it won’t come back on), and thru happenstance of someone moving and clearing out old stuff, I was given a 32” TV last week. I plan to give it to Dad, and hook it up when he is out on one of his therapy visits, because if he is there, he will kibbitz and interfere, and call me incompetent, and I just might punch his face in. I know he won’t appreciate the TV, and will probably complain about it. I’m in no hurry to give him the TV.
I do feel a need to talk with someone, because I feel a building anger inside, surrounding how I relate to my father. I feel like I could punch his face in if he rages at me one more time.
And I remember writing “I’m going to punch your face in” to ACMM, when it became clear to me that he did not intend to respond to my needs for a more fulfilling sexual experience.
You give and give, and emotionally disconnected people will continue taking, with no appreciation of you.
Your father sounds like a miserable man. Period. He is not necessarily disordered. This is his first major physical illness; no? He hates being dependent and delegating, especially when he was so selfish and spoiled and all-on-his-own-terms before. Feel sorry for him.
At the same time, let him know that you have a life and are enjoying it. That you are an adult. That you can handle and be responsible for and own up to.all aspects of your life. That he is on your list, but is not (always) first, unless an emergency exists or he is part of your schedule.
It is important to understand that people rarely change, so stop trying to “love the hurt away” in others. There are no “movie endings” in most people lives. It’s also important to understand that it is OK to give love to yourself first. No matter how harshly others may judge.
I did not visit my father every day in the hospital…did not want to be in his company. I did call him for daily updates, and was harangued every time. No one else called him at all. When I called him once at the hospital to say I would come by that afternoon, he said “Don’t bother, you can just call me.” I gladly took that as an out…but later found out he told the nurses I was coming by and painted me as someone who did not visit when she said she would.
This man is 82 years old, and I happened to stop by his house a few weeks ago just as his 72-year old girlfriend was storming out saying “I’m DONE. I have had enough.” While he was in the hospital, I had his flip-phone, and I perused his messages. I found one from July where he was calling the girlfriend “crazy” and declaring he would only communicate with her by letter, as she never makes sense when talking on the phone.
In a different scenario, decades ago, when a girlfriend got married back when we were all 30, she tried to talk to her husband via writing a letter about her feelings, and he said to her he could not communicate with anyone who could not SPEAK what was on her mind, rather than write him a letter.
My point is, emotionally abusive people rarely change, in their minds they remain unassailable – meaning they are never at fault – and they will not allow you to make things better. YOU are always wrong, YOUR WAY is always wrong, and you will continually bend yourself in pretzels trying to appease them.
End the madness and stop trying. If there is no reason for them to be in your life, choose to leave them alone. And always choose your own happiness first.
Touché! It recently dawned on me that “being flexible” (= malleable) was a significant driver of the chaos my life has always been so full of. It fits in perfectly with the people-pleasing, too-nice thing. What happens is that we get massively taken advantage of. Not that people are doing it out of meanness, but because we advertise that we’ll tolerate it as if it’s some sort of virtue or selling point, so our lives end up being spent reacting to ever-changing conditions as we’re falling all over ourselves accommodating other people’s schedules and needs and vicissitudes at the expense of our own. I’ve decided to shut that pattern down and become one of those people with boundaries who just says, “No, I can’t do it then.” or “No, I am not in a position to help you with that. Sorry.”
Great post! I’ve been a long time reader but this is my first comment. I was dealing with a lady just like you described in your post. Notice the key word “was”. At the end of the relationship I realized that she too was emotionally unavailable. I spent years trying to make her happy while living with crumbs from her. I’m emotionally healthier now but it’s still a struggle not to contact her. My heart says call but my mind is telling me “you’re gonna get burned if you do”.
Hi Joe,
Remember the crumbs and all that those few crumbs represent/made you feel because since the breakup I am sure those same measly crumbs are there still eagerly waiting for you should you break no contact. Best to just keep it moving and developing more your healthier sense of self.
Okey so I don’t really know what is going on with this guy I am currently “with”. Let’s try to put some details in perspective.
I’m a single mother of 2 who managed to successfully escape an abusive relationship 4 years ago. I’ve tried to date, but most guys I have encountered run a few miles when they find out I have kids.
I met this guy, lets call him John, through Facebook and we mostly chatted online. He’s 7 years younger than me. We met face to face about a year after chatting online. He’s never been interested in pursuing a relationship and I have never wanted any as I was dealing with recovering from my abusive ex. John was amazing, supported me throughout and was really a shoulder to cry on. Soon after meeting up I realised I was not into starting a new relationship due to trust issues. So initiated a friendship with benefits with John (with the agreement to end if any feelings gets involved). It was fine and it scratched the itch, when needed. A few months ago, John suggested we go travelling together. I haven’t been on holiday for donkey years so I decided to go along. It was amazing, two friends discovering new lands and enjoying each other’s company. As soon as we returned home and we got busy with our everyday lives, I noticed how much I missed him and also realised I’ve started to have feelings. I didn’t think much of it until when we hooked up again, where we just hugged and kissed rather than getting busy (which was usually what happened) (sorry for the tmi). The feelings I felt was the kind of feelings you would experience with someone you was in love with and throughout sex I felt emotional.
Afterwards I confessed to him that I’ve caught feelings. After being quiet for a few minutes he said that he also have feelings for me but that he cannot commit to me, because I have kids and also being older. I was gobsmacked that someone whom I’ve gotten to know that well as a through and through nice, kind, caring and considerate person was saying that to me (detected no assclownism, narccissm or EUMism while being FWB). We discussed the problem as he was being apologetic and feeling bad yet maintained that a relationship with me is not something he wants. I have stated what I want and need and left it at that.
Fast forward to today (6 weeks later) we have maintained the FWB relationship and avoided talking about the elephant in the room. I sincerely believe he is the right guy for me and the only reason I have continued to remain with him is for him to realise sooner than later that I am the right woman for him too despite my “handicap”.
I am being delusional, too nice? Is he disrespecting me? Am I disrespecting myself by allowing myself to remain in this situation, waiting, hoping for him to change his mind? I don’t want to be trodden on, and I don’t think I am a doormat. I just want a happy ending. That’s all!!!
Monifah, why are you doing this to yourself? He does not want what you want. There is no magic potion to make him change into wanting the commitment you want. He accepts the sex because as far as he is concerned, the deal between you two was always about sex.
He is not a bad person. He is not responsible for YOUR heart, so….I disagree if anyone feels he is leading you on. I do not think he is supposed to turn down sex because YOU caught feelings. This unrequited love thing happens all the time, and each person handles it differently.
What you were really excited about was having company and companionship with someone who treated you with kindness. So now you declare it must be LOVE, where it really just might be a pleasant interlude with a nice guy.
If you want love, look for it elsewhere. Does not mean you have to let the FWB thing go, but if you can’t separate LOVE from FWB, you need to let him go.
Monifah, agree with Elgie R. You are older and have children like he says and this he sees as a major for non-commital. Why would you continue seeing someone who has no interest for your children, and doesn’t seem to respect the age difference??
Elgie R and Gina, thank you for your response.
I have now stopped seeing this guy. Purely because as I realised I deserve so much better than someone who did not want me to be part of their future. Mind you I will miss his companion like Elgie R said, but at least I wont waste my time nor his.
Thank you both.
Brenda K – it happens to me at work, with my daughter and mostly in my love life. Being too flexible fills my life with disorder & rushing.
I really like the approach of simply saying no and I hope I can do it more often! I’ve got to stop worrying that I’ll hurt someone’s feelings!
I agree, say no. I’m starting to see that I treat some people like they are fragile. They’re not. They can handle a no, most of us hear it all day long in one form or another.
No is such a nice word. Practice it daily especially for things/people that are deserving of the response.
After nearly 50 years of bumbling through life enveloped in a miasma of existential guilt and going to endless people-pleasing contortions in an ever-futile attempt to atone for my existence, I am getting increasingly comfortable with befriending my inner “Nope-topus” 😀
I need a bit of help. It’s only tangentially on topic (the guy it’s about is a friend of a friend and this friend -a girl- is treating me badly, and I’ve been too nice through it all).
Anyway, simple question: this guy asked for my friendship on FB the moment a photo was posted of me (and the girl who posted it also tagged me). That photo was a grop photo taken at the birthday party we had met at, 6 days before. At the time we should have all gone dancing together but we got separated in 2 groups and his didn’t join mine in the end.
I of course accepted the friendship.
Do I write him? like “hello there, how are you doing?” very simple. I would do it with a friend. But i have no idea how FB works (I’m not that old, early 30s, but still IDK), nor am I a flirter.
Help!
Misa,
Sounds like you are a bit taken by the attention, tread with care though given he is friends with the girl who is treating you badly.
People do this constantly on facebook to include strangers sending strangers friend requests, and you simply accepted his request. And it sounds like you hardly know this person for him to be suddenly in your friends list, he’s not so need to reply. By the way why did you accept his friendship?
I too receive friend requests which I either decline/don’t reply given they are complete strangers or someone I just met once in/directly. The pudding really is in for the most part ongoing face to face meetups.
If you are wishing for something to develop acquaintance/friendship wise let him do all the work since he initiated the contact. You are a catch, just don’t let yourself be too easy of a catch. Latter is unfortunately for some women their downfall.
My last paragraph is not a game playing situation, when you have oodles of other super joyous things going on in your life that keep your values intact and further your personal growth, whoever comes along additionally can add to that in a positive way rather than swoop in and deplete you of all your good energy to include sanity.
So True. It weeds out people looking for low hanging fruit and/or people desperate for any attention. I would add to pay attention to how they respond to all that good stuff that’s going on in your life. If they are jealous, angry, resentful of it, drop them fast! If they’ve got their own great stuff going on too and are happy to include you and vice versa, you may have something there.
Hi! Thank you for your answer 🙂
I haven’t explained the situation well, I guess, but I do appreciate your feedback. It’s just that I felt “old” for a moment, as in “I have no idea how this is supposed to work!”
I am taking very good care of myself. I also am very much centered in my professional growth, and it’s amazing. That’s why I feel ready to start dating again, I guess 🙂 I have a career, good friends, good relationship with my family, I am emotionally healthy.
This also means that I am not invensting too much into this, yet at the same time I do think it’s time I go out there, otherwise I’d risk getting bitter. I don’t want my past to break me forever: I have grieved, I have grown, now it’s time to live again, to take normal risks, to be availlable, like Nat says.
Things are going well, anyway: we chatted about our jobs, and it was very nice. He was kind and interested, and I kept it mellow, and he responded gently. I am all for getting to know him slowly, and I think he wants the same. There is never a hurry, if it’s meant to be, then it will happen at any pace, if not, he is an interesting person.
As for the “friend” we have in common, we live in a metropolis: she is more of an acquaintance to him, it’s just that we were both invited to her party. She is young and I guess I am patient with her because I worry. I am not willing to play “mother saviour”, though! No control, just “i am there if you need me, but on my terms”. 🙂
Great wisdom in this post. I suppose because I am a very direct person, I respond to directness in lieu of “hints.” I feel angry at times because I am such a “nice” person but I try to treat people how I want to be treated. This obviously, is not working in my favor as my EU only took this as a license to just treat me however he wished. Looking back, I now wish I had called him out on many things that I just let go. I should have been the one to move on because of his unacceptable behavior. Now that I am away from the situation, the list of “cons” are getting clearer to see and actually there aren’t but a few “pros.” Guess I should have made that list soon, yes?
I was trying to understand what “SHE” ( the new flavor) has that I don’t have, but I now realize, he just found another that fits into a mold to suits his selfish ego and as soon as she starts expecting accountability and commitment from him, he will be off yet again to find a different field to play in.
They truly do tell you exactly who they are if we only listen..sigh
Thanks for driving the point home Natalie. Your posts all see so relevant in every way and we really need to hear them, so keep posting.
100 % as always and especially appreciated the challenge for us to own our motivations for being blind to the hints – a lot of it is an ego thing on our side too, thinking that we might be the exception to the rule.
That said, I think some of this testing can have a sadistic side to it too. Now I can see that my ex liked upsetting me, or provoking me into reacting. At one point he came clean about a lot of things he had been doing (basically trying to fck other women online and irl and even do it in our bed when I wasn’t there …)
At the time I was so shell-shocked, I mean for whatever reason I loved this man, I couldn’t digest what was happening and why he was sharing this with me when he didn’t have to.
Now I think he was trying to show me the reality of his character and how he treated women in general to see if I’d ‘accept’ it. The fact that I stayed with him for many years after this showed that I did – this and him apparently getting off on hurting me.
For anyone trying to get out of these trainwreck relationships, please know that it is possible – I spent four years with this man, on and off and basically emptied my life and self-esteem of any meaning. I stopped everything pretty much and lived a life of hell that even led me to have trauma reactions.
Get out, do not keep in contact. Now I’m with a man who is the mirror-opposite, someone who does the ‘right thing’ because of his own internal value system; it’s amazing the transformation I feel. Really, leave these dead-end bellends to fend for themselves they do not need, love or even want us. Believe me.
OMG this is to true. The EUM will do everything to make you go away and soon as you go away, they try to come back! I never understood this, but reading Nat’s post helps me understand this type of behavior. I guess it didn’t make sense to me because I don’t treat people this way. If I didn’t want to be with anybody, I would just tell them and move on! There was no ambiguity. But the AC/EUM I knew was telling me about himself and I wasn’t listening. So when I finally got it, I bounced. I continued to keep my boundries and never waivered. But at that point I also saw him for what he was and it made it easier to walk away.
I love this post – it’s helping me stay on track today. I went NC with an ex-EUM and it was the right thing, the best thing, for all the reasons we already know.
What makes it challenging sometimes is, we’re both part of a small performer community where there seems to be a cultural value around “putting differences aside” to work together, “for the sake of a show” and making money. I understand that some folks make their living this way and feel that they must work with people who have mistreated/hurt them in order to support themselves.
I get that feeling that, since the ex-EUM is also well-known, I should “go along to get along” because “that’s how we do.” I can feel him using that cultural norm as a way to try to hit the Reset Button with me. I recognize this is bullshit but I can tell that what I am doing is generally frowned upon in this community. However, I’m not talking smack about him or generating drama – I simply do not interact with him, period. It’s as though we do not know one another, which is more accurate than he may be willing to admit.
Which led me an important, comforting thought: there are many in the scene I do not know about. I haven’t met them – and not knowing them hasn’t affected my ability to work/perform. Why would he be any different? My ability to succeed will be based on my efforts and the support of those who love me – not my willingness to “play nice” with people who don’t deserve a scrap of my attention.
I wonder if others have experience with this – being part of a group or scene that has a cultural norm around “making nice” for the sake of the group or a show, etc. and feeling the discomfort/subtle pressure of others when you go against that norm. Thanks all! xoxo
I want to add that having this blog has been one of the most powerful tools to moving past involvement with ex-EUMs. I can look back and identify two other relationships I had in the past where this was the issue – now I understand why recovery took so long, why I wanted to reconcile so badly, etc.
Reading this blog when things get tough, when I need to strengthen my resolve because I will run into him, when I start to lose my focus on meeting my own needs/standards, setting my boundaries – this blog always brings me back to reality. It’s like a self-esteem vitamin. The time I would have spent trying to read his mind, trying to predict his next move, trying to squeeze blood from an emotional stone – is time I can spend here, improving my own capacity for growth and resilience.
If you’re in pain and you just got here, I will tell you, flat out: it will get better, you will not feel like this forever. Whomever you’re pining for, their importance to you will diminish slowly, slowly – until one day you wake up and you forget to think about them at all. Hang in there. Just keep coming back, keep reading. xoxo
oh, yes….My father’s family had the mechanism of Making Nice”; and the women were urged to “smooth things over” when conflicts/abuses arose.
That culture caused me and my two sisters to accept (and not even recognize) abuse in various forms. It has taken me years to recognize what actually happened, get help, and start reclaiming my life. This has meant ending relationships that mirrored family-of-origin problems, moving away from negative people, and accepting that a relationship with one family member is best kept NC.
“Going along to get along”, “smoothing things over”, “cutting people slack”, etc. are questionable actions on a slippery slope .
Thanks for this blog. I have been in many relationships that have made me question why I keep dating. Everything always starts well and after a year or so it changes. My ex of 2months and I were together for over 2years. It was LD. We spoke about marriage, made plans to have me move even though I have the successful work. I was willing because I thought he was sincere. Two months ago he said he wasn’t in love with me anymore and had cheated. Now he msgs me preaching about God and how he wronged me but since he has accepted God his life as changed.
I am frustrated and disappointed because i wonder if he learned through me and now will be better to another woman.
I find it difficult to not think about this none sense. It’s tough.
Jos,
Basic question: If he does not love you, why is he messaging you? Block him now! this guy is upto no good, using God to preach to someone he cheated on?? that is absolutely crazy.
My guy used to say that he is now “awakened”, it was total BS, till he ran into the next candidate he could BS on
Yeah I agree. That guy just doesn’t want to feel like an asshole. He wants to be let off the hook. He probably thinks, “god forgives me, why can’t you? Why won’t you let me come back and let me get away with more assclowning?” Because you’re a person and you deserve better. Block!
Michelle, I agree so much, this site and all the people who use it are a stable base to make rational decisions and a voice of clarity when ones goes off track and starts justifying unacceptable behaviour! It’s my saviour!!
First time post-er, long time people pleaser. I am looking for advice on how to respond to good friends that don’t seem to be happy with my chosen single status.
A brief background- I have been divorced for 2.5 years of a 12 year marriage. Three months out of my divorce, I was part of what I thought was a serious, long distance relationship for nine months. I ignored a lot of red and my intuition, but I understand now how vulnerable I was and have forgiven that part of me. Out of this I have learned both my ex husband and ex boyfriend had similar traits. Without going into detail, I was left feeling violated, sad, and angry.
It was approximately 1 1/2 years ago in which I went on a dating hiatus and began working on myself. I cut contact with a toxic “best” friend that spread gossip about me, cut contact with my toxic mother, and faced a lot of painful truths.
I am doing okay, some due to the fact that I am introverted and naturally seek solitude. I am busy working on my masters degree, seeking employment in my profession, and have a teenage son to raise. I feel much more balanced and at peace and really like learning about myself (dating myself, one could say).
I value the handful of relationships left in my life. Two of these friends have been with me through thick and thin. My problem is, I cannot spend time with each of them without the subject of my dating life coming into conversation. I have stated to them what I discussed here- I’m busy, I have been through relationship pain and feel happy without one for the time being.
It’s frustrating me to feel like I have to defend my single status to what I consider supportive friends. I say this because I am told (warned) things like “the best way to get over someone is to get together with someone else”, “you are becoming a hermit”, “if you get too old……” (I’m in my mid 30s). In some respect, I feel they may be showing they care in a strange way? I don’t know, I don’t bring up the topic because it is not on my mind. Right now, I feel relationships can be miserable with the wrong person and I am not interested. My one friend has cut me out of gatherings because of my single status (couples night). I would have never thought I would be discriminated against because of my choice to be in or out of a relationship.
Part of this post is just venting, because honestly 80% of the time it’s great to be single. But I consider my friends my only family. I would like to know how you guys would react or feel or if any of you have ever experienced this?
p.s.-I love Baggage Reclaim! It’s an incredible resource into how to maneuver through unhealthy relationships and learn how to improve self esteem.
Naturelover, it sounds like you’re making healthy choices and changes in your life but your old group of friends isn’t comfortable with that and wants you to stay the same (coupled, pursuing a relationship, etc.) It sounds like this is much more about them and their own insecurities. It also sounds like you’re growing and these folks can’t come with you. It can be scary to let go of people but, looking back in my life, I see that it was to make room for new people who were heading in the same direction as me. Ironically, it was when I let go of people who were pushing me to “find someone” that I found people I enjoyed, felt comfortable with – and that is where I “found someone.” 🙂 All the best to you as you shape your life on your terms. Good for you for staying true to your needs – for questioning their agendas rather than changing yours.
Hi Michelle,
Thank you for your thoughts! I do have a hard time letting go of friends unless they have demonstrated harmful behavior directed at me. I may still be adjusting to not being married and finding it difficult to find and make friends with other single women. It appears my circle of girl friends are matched in a relationship and they don’t understand why I would prefer to not date.
You are right about me questioning their agenda- My recent relationship history (ex husband and ex bf) was extremely unhealthy and I wasn’t myself for quite a while. After a lengthy battle, my life is improving and I am more myself (laughing, smiling, accomplishing goals, talking about my future dreams). Because of this it’s odd to me that a friend, who knows what happened, would be pushy about me dating again.
It’s nice (and validates my feelings) to be able to read Natalie’s blog as I feel less alone and more understood in this community.
My peanut gallery is, relationship, friend, friends, A person through life will always have to ensure people pleasing isn’t a
diet.. Your bravery getting to know yourself, navigating beautiful brave dreams by your own mandate will get you to your power more naturally and brilliantly than caving into questioning yourself because others close choose to hen peck you, really, groups are so hobbyists, they don’t mean to be, but they can tend to get complacent. Don’t loose your vision, I am hearing here, you are the red jelly bean in all the brown ones… Maybe it’s a sign.. You ARE shining, you have been doing your work on the you that is uniquely you..you might be making them nervous. 🙂 all wiggly 🙂
I say: How lovely to be in tune with your own song. And I am not a group, I am One.
I am new, for posting, but not for the blog, thanks Natalie, with your blog and all the comments I manage to keep my head above the waves in most of time. I did quite a many stupid things in my life, recently EUMM, while I was EUMW…. and I am trying to figure out who I am, what I want, mapping my own emotional map to take the good direction. What I find the most difficult for me is to trust my own gut, not to question my decision and have a good self-esteem, with well defined boundaries. I have had several good days, now a setback, but I keep on kicking my own ass, even though sometimes it is very difficult. Thanks to all of you.
The biggest deal I’m finding… Is I really want to say to myself…HEY! Can’t you get it?? So… Here’s my prose on the subject:
I’m always wondering if there’s a magical key into illumination and morals that can be universally shared so we as a couple or species get to good faster.. Some common denominator that will eventually be the root chord for the choral
‘Ah Ha’ moment where we can stand eye to eye, even by way of agreeing to disagree would be a place to stand together ..When I first thought it was Love, that was the premiss I based the ‘holier than thou’ moment of connecting with my mate.. Then in came an unexpected deception that had so many blind spots..as nature designed deception that way… The navigating commenced!
Out came the warrior in me, It’s the warrior in me that punches my way, always trying to emotionally punch my way out of the wet paper bag I put myself in… This guy I treasured had been enjoying his usual unusual patterns and ways.. It’s nothing new to him..i just didn’t know it to recognize , being half cut all the time on my hormones. I have even condoned his usual unusual because I hung around to unravel the tangled ball of his fascinating yarns, having self appointed myself into the Queen position of his life. I’m starting to see this and yes, I can’t believe my eyes! He could be the best trick under the big top hat…truly, the crowd would gasp … Gasp they would if the crowd had my morals of truth and honour and transparency. But I am the audience of one in this show of he and I…and the problem with that is he is the player.. So who’s really doing what to who here I ask?
It is up to me, in the core of everything Me, to not let the need to be warrior, the need to illuminate , the need to truth for my inner voice , the need to be justly seen and supported, fail because I chose for that fleeting moment of ecstasy to possess a constant slippery question mark. I am not a teenager anymore doing recreational testing on others emotions or mine… It’s adult time now.. And no one is invited to use me for their own weird device either. It’s time to relate to another of LIKE mind before handing everything over and handling the goods while pouring energy of another into my life stream. It’s up to me alone to learn about holding out before I just give it all away to swine. And swine there is.. There’s no blame, it’s ‘just’ swine. No. He is not that ‘special’…you got that right.. It’s not mean to admit it, it’s truth. No ONE ‘is’ until they ARE… Love. LOVE would never request a mandate of deception to glue together the disfunction in order for a relating experience to ‘just’ survive.
This is such a great post; I’m going to save it to reread. I am thinking about it in relation to a sibling. I have some of those “being too nice” tendencies. I keep thinking if I ignore her she’ll stop testing me (kind of like with children), but she doesn’t. She keeps at it. On any given outing, it can be 90% fine, but there is typically one questionable interaction that I don’t call her out on. And often the boundary violation is something she DOESN’T do, which makes it harder to pinpoint. Like not responding, not offering gas money, not saying something nice in return in conversation, etc. How does one call out what someone doesn’t do: subtle ignoring, “forgetting”, being less engaged and showing me just how loving she is to others in the room but not me, etc. It’s passive aggressive BS that goes on and on.
What if you work with the guy and see them all day? How do i move on?
I needed this. I saw this guy for about a year. And the entire time he was always making excuses about why he didn’t want an actual relationship. Finally one day I had it, and broke it off with him, so I could explore other romantic prospects. I told him I would need space so we should have a no contact period. But he never respected that. Not even a week later he messaged me. I was upset with him for not respecting the fact that I needed space so we argued. He called me immature, and I genuinely believed at the time I might have been acting that way for wanting to distance myself. We continued this way for almost a year. He never stopped messaging me, and I would always respond. I finally stopped talking to him cold turkey this past summer, and I thought he had finally moved on. But about six months later he is messaging me again, probably because he knows I’m back in town because I’m on break from school. Sometimes I wonder how selfish this man can get. He has an awesome job, plenty of friends, I know that he dates and sleeps with a bunch of women. But it seems like he will not rest until he has totally humiliated me. Which makes zero sense. I’m a student who is 6 years younger than him. It’s just plain cruel. Anyways after reading this article there is no way that I will respond. I feel like his essence was captured in your description of the clinging ex Natalie.
I’ve got a question about respect. When you first meet someone and it’s early days and you’ve given out your number but get few phone calls and just text after text…it’s obvious that they’re passing time. How do you folks manage this? Just stop responding? Or state your boundaries? If it’s the latter, how do you politely tell them, please?
Amanda, first you have to decide if the person is a disrespectful creep (in which case he deserves no response at all) or just a clueless clod with poor dating skills (in which case stating your boundaries would be in order on the chance – a dim chance – that he’ll get the message and learn something.)
If he’s a clueless clod, that still doesn’t sound promising, but if you are willing to give him a chance, then you must establish who you are early on and what your boundaries are. Just say so, politely. Just text back “Hey, I’m not much into texting, but would be interested in talking on the phone so we can get to know each other. Here’s my number, call me.” His response to this will tell you everything you need to know about him. If he just sends more texts, then he has no respect for your wishes or your boundaries. In that case, block any further texts and forget about him.