When it comes to improving how we feel and are treated, we tend to prioritise getting others to feel about and treat us in that way before we will do it for ourselves. We’re convinced that we’ll be motivated to feel about and treat us in this way when these external sources have given us what we want and essentially fixed what’s going on internally. Think, some person that we’ve dignified as an expert and validation source, or even a collective of several ‘VIPs’. While this shortcut appears to be ‘easier’, it’s not. And if you want to feel and experience love, care, trust, and respect, you must learn to do these things for yourself first or certainly at the same time as you’re giving these to others.
It is the simple matter of acting and treating ourselves in the way that we want others to.
The question you need to answer is: Why aren’t you treating and regarding yourself in the way that you want others to? Shouldn’t you be leading by example of the boundaries created by your relationship with you?
When you treat yourself with love, care, trust, and respect, there’s little, if any, incentive to hang around somebody who treats you less than what you already do.
Withholding and in fact starving you of these things means that anyone can come along with crumbs. You’ll dive on them and feel excited by the feast. But by overvaluing them in the first place, they come out of the exaggeration oven as a loaf. Then one day you realise that they’re just crumbs and that collectively they don’t make a loaf; they just make a pile of crumbs.
I’ve come to understand that anything that you expect of others in your interpersonal relationships are things that you must expect and deliver yourself. Anything less is inauthentic and while we can insist that we are these things, it’s our actions that tell the true story.
Why do we expect others to value us when we don’t value ourselves? It’s like asking someone to validate and attribute more value to something that we’ve already determined the lesser value of.
If you’re doing this, you need to realise that you are engaging in a misappropriation of your efforts. It’s not them that needs to realise your value; it’s you that needs to change your mind. You cannot expect someone to treat you with love, care, trust, and respect if, in the process of trying to gain this from them, you are actually denying yourself these things. Lead by example.
I still have the same family, pretty much all of the same friends, and I still am living in the same skin with the same mind in there, but how I’ve learned to feel about and treat myself has changed.
When you recognise that the people who detract from you are those who reflect your fears and beliefs, you realise that if you address these fears and beliefs, who you’re attracted to and attracting will reflect your ‘updated’ self.
You cannot expect someone else to live truthfully, or to be direct with you, or to take an interest in your wellbeing, or to respect your boundaries and know what you want, when you don’t live truthfully, are unwilling to assert yourself and be direct with them, are not taking an interest in your own wellbeing and taking care of you, and are busting your own boundaries and behaving like you have no clue what you want because you keep riding on the coattails of someone else’s agenda.
Deciding to take the focus off ‘them’ and bring it back to you is the equivalent of deciding to stop spending all of your money and spare time on partying and putting it into things and experiences that will better you. Only you take everything you’d normally over-give in the pursuit of ‘love’ to others and give it to yourself. The next time you invest in someone else, you will choose better because otherwise, you’ll be robbing yourself.
People say to me “But how?” The question we have to ask ourselves, especially when we’ve declared how much we’ve loved someone, have been guilty of over-giving, over-empathising, and even Florence Nightingaling, is why do we suddenly no longer possess the behaviours and mentality to do these things when that energy is directed at ourselves?
I’ve liked and admired people in the past for stuff that in retrospect seems pretty damn ridiculous, and yet I used to find it hard to like me.
How can we call ourselves loving, generous, compassionate, empathetic, the best that someone could ever meet and yet barely direct crumbs of this stuff to ourselves?
Anything that you expect of others is things that you should expect of yourself. It is the disconnect between what you do for others and what you don’t do for yourself that not only creates a mismatch in actions and lack of authenticity, but it’s how you end up mistreating you. This is all while feeling confused about how this happened when for all intents and purposes you appear to be doing ‘all the right things’, except valuing you.
A friend of mine and BR reader is going through chemotherapy at the moment. She had a huge row with her mother who keeps going on about how she needs to take care of herself, do this, do that, while at the same time sometimes saying things that are incredibly hurtful. “What is the point in telling me to be careful about where I go, eating only organic food, and taking care of my body if you’re going to say this stuff to me?”
If you’re not treating yourself as you expect others to treat you, it’s time to ask why you will go to such lengths to seek external validation, to invest in your appearance, or to clock up achievements, material goods, and add-ons to your life, if what you churn around in your mind are repeated self-criticism and other pollution?
The wonderful thing of course, is that when you start treating you like the worthwhile and valuable person that you are, you won’t let anyone come along and steal your wind. You’ll recognise that there’s no point sticking around somebody that detracts from you when you already bring so much to your own table.
Your thoughts?
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I noticed I do this. I treat myself they way I want to be treated & I also assert myself. I do need help on one thing though.
What does one do when they do all the above and still face a persistent ass hat? I can be on the top of the world – at a place where I feel I’m on top of the world and feel my like my worth can’t be put into words but then some people see that & feel that and take it upon themselves to knock me down from that positive feeling. I don’t understand that. I treat my self like a precious gem and people can still look at me & treat me like I don’t deserve it. I dont get that.
don’t let them…. Say…. Hmmm… interesting that YOU have that view….. I have this one and guess what….. Thats right. Only mine….. Matters…. So I believe you can take your limited viewpoints and watch the sun with those elsewhere…. Thank you very much…….
Mean it by not allowing others to say contrary opinions at your person without them taking 100% responsibility for it as you take your 100% responsibility for allowing them the pleasure of your ear, face, time.
Then choose…. Once accepted xxx
It’s a universal law that there are people who act badly. Being as good a person as you can be in an imperfect world (without forgetting yourself) makes living in that world a bunch easier! To have joy in the good, you have to accept the bad for what it is.
It could also be that people set their boundaries early on in a friendship/relationship and that if you create healthier boundaries for yourself, others will have to adjust to that because they have expectations based on how you were before. And if they don’t come round to that, you have to cut them off.
Something to ponder, thank you.
I’ve noticed that too: this self-appreciating attitude invites choppers. I guess, the solution is to reinforce one’s boundaries to keep the choppers at bay, without this the job is only half-way done and the loaf half-way baked.
It’s a long road, but I’m getting there. Two days ago, my grandfather called me up, yelled at me and hung up the phone. He had given me some home-grown vegetables a couple days before and told me to give what I didn’t eat to my parents. I had called my dad’s office that day to arrange a time when I could deliver them (at his office, because I have been burned too many times when I go to my parents house alone.) But he wasn’t in.
I didn’t realize this was going to be an issue, but a 10 p.m. my grandfather calls demanding that I go over to my parents’ house and deliver the vegetables right then. I tried explaining that I was trying to arrange a time and place that would be safe and respect the boundaries that I have with my parents. I don’t think he heard me because he was yelling over me. It was horrible. I was sobbing hysterically, loaded up the veggies, and dropped them off on my parents’ porch.
When I arrived home and the emotional fog cleared, I realized something. I had not done anything wrong. I certainly didn’t deserve to be yelled at and hung up on…over VEGETABLES for goodness sake. I was not going to beat myself up or feel guilty about something so ridiculous. My grandfather still hasn’t called back. He probably won’t. I’m sure he feels completely justified. I love him, but what he did was inappropriate and disrespectful. Instead of calling him up and telling him that I don’t deserve to be treated like that; I’ve decided to not worry about the situation and make it all about me. I’m sure that sounds pretty insignificant, but it’s a HUGE step for me. Normally I would spend weeks agonizing over the fact that *I* had upset someone and feel incredibly guilty about it.
But I still have a very long way to go in regards to loving, trusting, and validating myself. That’s why I’m so thankful for BR and reading stories from all you who have overcome so much and are learning how to treat yourself well. Thank you all 🙂
Great story. 🙂 It’s amazing when you’re finally able to let go. I achieved something “insignificant” recently. I was finally able to let go of a pile of guilt leftover from past relationships, so I had all this righteous anger I hadn’t allowed myself to feel before.
Laurie- I am glad that you came to this realization, that:”I had not done anything wrong.” You see, when people over-react (as your grandfather did) and completely steamroll over a person, it says everything about where they are (emotionally, maturity, spiritually)in their own lives.
It is not about us….it is about them. We cannot take their issues/problems and accept responsibility for something that is not ours to own. Their life’s work (to get themselves right), is not for us to do, but rather for them. So if we cannot do their work for them, why should we take on their trash that they heap on us? We shouldn’t. We have our own trash to clean up (our life’s work).
Interestingly enough, it is precisely people who like to dump their trash on us, who will demand and impose that we jump through hoops simply because they say so. Meanwhile, they are the walking unconscious….and the last people we should follow orders from. Not that someone has the right to order you around, but if I had to take orders from someone, (say in the military or some environment like that)it should be from someone who has his/her act together. Someone reasonable. Not for instance, someone demanding you deliver vegetables at 10pm! Heck, not even grocery stores deliver at that hour!
Own your power beautiful Laurie. You have an innate understanding that you deserve respect. You should never feel guilty as a result of someone trying to inflict guilt upon you. If anything, see it for what it is….someone trying to “inflict” their dysfunctional need to make you feel guilty for someothing that you are not accountable for. Rather, see that this is about their need to manipulate and control you. It has nothing to do with anythin he said to you that evening. Forget the words he used…it’s all gibberish. The true language he was using is the language of bullying. Likely he feels out of control in his own life and must try to reassert control by controlling others.
I encourage you to refrain from putting yourself in that environment as much as possible. Use your answering machine, caller-ID and do not feel the responsibility to pick up the phone when he calls. When and if you pick up, and he will likely demand why you have been avoiding him, in a very stern voice (say very few but powerful words), say “I will choose to speak to you when you decide to speak to me respectfully.” If he carries on and rants…..hang up. Immaturity, disrespect, controlling, manipulative, and bully behavior can come from a child of ANY AGE. Sadly, very old people are not exempt from being immature. You have permission to protect yourself, including your emotional well-being. Removing yourself from abusive environments (no matter who is the perpetrator…parents….grandparents….etc) is what you must do to give yourself the power to own your life. To allow you the safe environment to grow, and do your life’s work.
Feel free to email me to chat if you’d like. I wish you peace….
~Ella
Laurie
Your grandfather obviously thinks/knows that you are the woman who will let him shout and scream at her down a phone. Stop being that woman. Hang up on these people. They’ll soon get the message. They can’t shout at people who are not there.
Anyway, who nominated you as vegetable delivery man?! Next time he mentions his vegetables tell him you do not want to be responsible for his vegetables any more. You don’t need to excuse and explain yourself to people all the time. Just tell them what you prepared to do and what you are not prepared to do. And being reduced to tears with someone shouting down a phone at you over their own vegetable problem is just not on. If he wants your parents to have vegetables he can contact them/deliver to them directly. So, another option which would have got your message across to him, would have been to deliver the vegetables he wanted your parents to have right back to your grandfather and tell him to deal with it himself if it’s that urgent for him.
Lucy, Ella, & Fearless,
Thank you so much for your insight and advice. If my grandfather should reach out again (which is unlikely, as I’m always the one to contact my grandparents) I will certainly not agree to be his delivery girl, etc. I don’t have any intention of reaching out to him after the way he treated me. I’m not trying to sound vindictive. I just feel that is my way of standing up for me and showing in actions rather than in words that I won’t put up with that sort of mistreatment. I think hell will freeze over before he calls and apologizes. That makes me sad, but I can’t own his bad (and irrational) choices. If he does call, I will take your advice Ella and let him know that I will talk to him as long as he communicates in a respectful way. If he starts yelling again, it will be my turn and my right to hang up the phone.
I so appreciate your encouragement!
Laurie,
Honestly your story got me so angry; my dad is that way. He flips out over really petty things and bullies me and I am SO over it. He has been that way since I was a child and he is worse now that he is getting dementia.
Do not, please, assuage your grandfather or parents anymore. Sounds like there are bullies in your family and by doing their bidding you are enabling them:( Hugs!
Jaz,
I deal with the same thing. I just don’t get it either. I treat myself very well and treat others like gold. You know, the Golden Rule. I also support and defend others when they are being mistreated. WHY OH WHY do people attempt to knock me down? 🙁 Ok, I know, Natalie told us the answer already-it’s them and their problem, not me. But it is confusing and hurtful. After all, we are human beings….
I so agree with that Lori, It’s so so hurtful when being nice just gets you re-payed back with hurt & malice ???,we just have to deal with it I know, but I do think sometimes why ? why should I bother why ????? I’m not a meek timid shy person & I DO speak my mind, but being nice just gets thrown in your face & heart, That’s confusing………..
Lori, Jaz, and skizzy, maybe you may want to consider flushing these folks? It isn’t confusing when people treat you with disrespect or attempt to knock you down. It’s an automatic flush. There is no way to know what they are thinking. Go by their actions and act appropriately with regards to self love, respect, and trust. It may mean you may need to flush.
True, putting things into a proper perspective.
I agree with runner. consider flushing these people and getting some of your own boundaries in place to dissuade them in the first place.
Lori, Jazz, etc.. It’s not your job to roll yourself out like a doormat to prove how “nice” you are. There are no prizes for who is the best doormat. You just get to be trodden over. People actually learn to have scant respect for people with no boundaries (too nice for boundaries?); they learn that they can disrespect you and treat you like you don’t matter. And why would they not learn this about you – it’s your lesson; you are the teacher?
If people don’t know how to respect you, get shot of them, but you need to know how to respect yourself or you’ll keep “running into” these people and they’ll keep running you down.
Wow Fearless you just hit home with that reply.
I actually went through a phase recently where I everyone was calling me “mean, selfish, etc.” when I know I wasn’t doing anything wrong to them I just kept to myself and didn’t allow them to be rude to me. I actually went on to try to prove my kindness and at the end I was just a disposable doormat. Wow you opened my eyes.
Jaz
Glad to be useful.
Here’s the latest news flash: You don’t need to prove anything to anyone.
Take it to the bank.
yeah, jaz, fearless-
its sounds a bit draconian, but try this on for size:
if someone is not on your side, they are in your way.
not sure who the heck do these people think they are that they can say those things to you, but they seem the bullying type. this type doesn’t respond to “nice”, only to strength.
I hear you! I feel the same sometimes. It helps to know that those people have their own issues to deal with, but why should that stop you from being lovely? After all, the world will take care of them somehow (at least that’s my hope). I definitely feel your frustration. I guess it’s about inwardly focussing on the type of person you want to be, and never letting anyone else distract you from that purpose. As long as your boundaries are in place, being a good person has its rewards.
Lori & Skizzy: What I did at one point was simply to break up internally with all the people who I feel detract from me. I didn´t necesarily tell them I didn´t want to see them anymore, but I just decided they weren´t positive for me and told myself I wouldn´t consider them my friends anymore.
It wasn´t easy, you get used to certain ways of relating and it is very difficult to get out of the status quo.
But now I notice that I´m getting to know people who are extremely nice. Or I´m deepening friendships with people who were mere acquiantences and whom I didn´t find interesting enough in the past. Now I realise they are much more pleasant to be around than I thought.
Do unto you as you do unto others! This is how I understand what Nat is telling us. I put this as the greeting message on my phone.
You are human. So, if you want to feel hurt, that is your due– but why waste your time owning someone else’s grief?
It might sound hard to let go, like your whole identity is being a victim/doormat, but it is only as hard as you make it. If you are truly tired of feeling sad and hurt you can and will do it.
I tell myself that I am a good person, that I have value, that I’m smarter than average, very attractive for my age, can mix in with any group of people and be able to converse and laugh with the best of them. The disconnect is that I don’t really deep down inside believe this and feel it in every fiber of my being. I have very devoted girlfriends, but with me I cannot seem to get to first base. I wonder if I somehow, inadvertently broadcast my insecurity and they can pick it up instantly. Sometimes, I will say and do certain things that probably raise questions regarding how I feel “less than”, I didn’t think I do it that much. Apparently, they smell it and either run or feel it gives them permission to be a SOB. I do know one thing, I will continue reading BR, seeing my psychologist who is really helping me to look at myself with clear, open eyes and read whatever I come across about improving self esteem. It’s one thing to say you’re “great” but if you don’t really feel it deep down inside and give yourself the best treatment possible you really cannot convince others and expect them to treat you like you are really SOMEBODY.
excuse the typo. I meant with MEN I can’t get to first base.
Tinkerbell,
I think self-talk is very important, but at some point, it can become nothing more than naval gazing. And over time, I think that would leave just about anyone depressed.
Ironically, when we get the focus off of ourselves and start giving to others (not over-giving mind you!) we start feeling better about ourselves.
The self-talk then becomes rooted in something concrete: I helped a child with their homework today, I counseled someone at a battered women’s shelter, I served lunch at the soup kitchen, I smiled at a stranger, etc. If you aren’t already involved in some sort of volunteer work, I would HIGHLY recommend it. It’s done wonders for my self-esteem.
Over the last two months I’ve realized that I don’t care – I don’t care when someone who adds no value to my life treats be poorly.
I’m going places. I’m learning things. I’m reaching my goals.
The naysayers can either get on board or shut up. I’m a big kid. I’ve looked at and weighed up all the options. When I want an opinion, I’ll ask for it.
I’m backing myself.
….your brilliant writing makes for the best Friday evening read…thank you!
I have this guy now that I called him on his lazy internet communications. I was only able to tell him to his face via Skype because he lives in another state. I requested that he calls me. Which he refuses to do. Then after telling me that having problems with other women being demanding with him for phone calls as the reason for not calling me – I really told him where I stand. Now he’s acting standoffish like I’ve upset him & I’m requesting something so difficult! I called him on this behavior too. I don’t think we will be taking this so called friendship any further. I’m upset about it but I’ll live! His lost!
For the past 6 years or so, I have been dealing with a female friend who consistently mistreats me. She will wait days before responding to my emails, has ignored my emails and even stopped talking to me for months when I told her I’d be leaving a show we were at during intermission because I was feeling ill and exhausted. She has forgotten my birthday and didn’t even ask about my parent’s health when she knew there was an acute illness in hospital. The problem is, although I do treat myself with great respect in general, I continue to accept her b.s. and listen to and support her through her sob stories about her own life disappointments. When I have told her about my own disappointment in some of her behaviours towards me, she immediately becomes defensive and tells me that she is not the kind of person who ‘buys birthday cards for friends, calls to see how sick parents are, etc’. Instead she maintains that she is the type of person who calls people to “make plans to do things”. I remain friends with her because we share certain interests and she, like myself, is single at an age where most others we know are married. As I write this, I recognize the insanity in the whole thing and wonder why I keep submitting myself to her abusive/neglectful treatment when I generally have other compassionate and warm friends. Wondering if anyone can relate or share some advice/insights?
Dear L,
Your experience and description of this is very interesting to me but I can’t really offer any advice as such. I think that this way of relating (contact is just about making plans to do things) simply means that there is nothing more there for them to give to or need from the friendship. That’s it, you are at best a companion and at worst the best option at the time for them, either way it’s about them being entertained and filling in their spare time. I say this as my entire (long) non relationship was nothing more in the end than a consistent series of bookings for the ‘girlfriend experience’. I just didn’t get it. But what you wrote resonated with me in the description of your role. You are not a friend as non users understand it, you know all that empathy, support, loyalty and care stuff. Not necessary to them and they don’t want or feel it, just not able to. I’m not suggesting that we behave like these narcissistic freaks (by that I mean one of Nature’s little marvels) but accepting that this is just the way some individuals are made, end of story, can give a helpful perspective. Yes, they are weird and harmful people, as a comment following another post described them, but it is our response to them that hurts and injures us. Our role in this faux and real stuff is the key.
@L. I can relate to what you’re going through. Last year I let go of a friend who I realized was only giving 25% to my 75% in the friendship. We’d been friends since college and I’d previously accepted her domineering personality since she could sometimes be really nice & fun and we had some similar friend groups and interests. Also, I knew that sometimes she was going through a hard time which made me willing to forgive her behavior. However, over time I realized that like your friend, she expected her needs to be met but wasn’t willing to let up on her domineering behavior to make me feel more respected in the relationship. She would sometimes stop talking to me when I disagreed with her over some topic or other. I would always be dumbfounded as these topics were usually trivial like if we liked a movie or not!? She also would make cutting comments to me, and when I told her that she hurt my feelings she’d say ‘she only tells the truth and if people can’t take it that’s their problem’. Meanwhile, I always felt like I was walking on eggshells around her & that she needed lots of ego stroking to feel secure. After an incident in which she asked to borrow my car for a week while being pretty rude to me while still asking for the favor, I’d had enough. I realized that this wasn’t college anymore. We’re adults with work & other day to day responsibilities and making time for friends & loved ones can be difficult. Why was I spending my precious time on someone who was so inconsistent in how she treated me? I’d previously stayed in the friendship because of a sense of responsibility that true friends stick together even through ups and downs. Then I realized (with some sadness) that, duh, she wasn’t a true friend! And, she wasn’t doing that ‘friends forever’ stuff for me as whenever I disagreed with her she’d drop me for a few months! True, mature friends don’t treat you badly but still expect you to be their emotional airbag. It was freeing (and easier than I thought) to realize I could just let that relationship end. I appreciate her for the good times but see that not all friendships have to last a lifetime. She may think I was being too sensitive, but I felt like I was coming into my own & respecting myself and my time. I don’t think if I treated her the way she treated me she’d stick around. She respects her own time! I realized I needed to stop worrying about what SHE thought and respect my own time & self! Like Natalie said in the article, we have to treat ourselves how we want to be treated. Sometimes that means people who don’t make the grade will leave your life. Don’t get sucked into feeling guilty like YOU are the bad friend by saying ‘this doesn’t work for me’. Think about what kind of friend you are being to yourself when you bring yourself around a bully.
L.,
In the last post, I talked about a life-long friend of mine who has “chopper” tendencies, is a *taker* instead of a *giver* and has not been receptive about changing any of those qualities. I’ve had to NC her, and while I guess that sounds a bit harsh, I really haven’t looked back. I don’t miss the relationship as it was very one-sided and I certainly don’t miss her negative company.
She wasn’t always like this. Honestly, after she got married, she really changed. She’s become more and more like her husband. I believe that we become like the people we surround ourselves with. It’s impossible not to be influenced by our friends. Clearly, you understand your friend isn’t treating you right. If that’s not motivation enough to close the book on that relationship (at least for now), perhaps you should consider if she is the type of person you want to become? If not, I would stay the hell away.
I know its hard letting go of a friendship. In my case, we had been friends for nearly 15 years. I still hold out hope that one day we can rekindle that relationship. But honestly, I don’t think about her or worry about the situation much at all. I’m happier now without her in my life.
L,
Time to find some new friends.
She has already told you that she is incapable of anything more than hanging out – basically she is looking for a body to accompany her to events. She has told and shown you who she is, so why are you trying to change this behavior after six years? She doesn’t care! If you are looking for a friend, I would on from this and hang out with your real friends.
This has gone on for waaaay too long!
Thanks to all of you for your comments, validation and advice.I have been slowly distancing myself from her, making fewer ‘plans’. The irony in it is whenever I do see her, she complains that her phone never seems to ring and how lonely she is. Is she looking for people to phone her just to chat after telling them that she only needs friends to “go out with”?! How very confusing. Another interesting point is that her IQ is quite high and she is an extremly well-read, bright individual. I guess IQ can only get one so far if one’s emotional quotient (EQ) is minimal. Thanks again!
L,
This isn’t your problem, as your needs are not being met in the friendship.
I would question what you get, and why you have hung on.
Allison,
Like I mentioned in my first post, I have hung on because we share similar interests – some of which my other firends don’t share. As well, we are both originally from the same city so have somewhat similar histories. We are both single women at an age where the majority of my other friends are married. That said, we all have a threshold for the type of treatmentwe will tolerate and I believe I have reached mine.
please excuse my typos 🙂
Hi L
Only you can decide what it best for you. I just want to share an experience with you. I had a friend with some similar behaviours. She would tell people how sensitive she was but feel the need to tell you like it is in blunt tones. She could be charming, funny, wise and engaging. She had to be at the centre of everything and wanted what you wanted. She never kept whatever/whoever it was for long because you no longer wanted it and in truth she never really wanted it in the first place.
She was often dismissive, cold and rude and enjoyed sharing confidences and would then apology stating that she did not realise that it was a secret.
She was unable to be happy for others but expected others to be happy for her.
Her only topic of interest was men whether she was in a relationship or not. She would want to spend hours analysising the relationship.
She expressed irritation if your issues became a cause of interest/concern to others and was in a hurry for you to get over yourself.
She rang me once at 2am to tell me that she was jealous of me and the relationship I had with my family, she also let me know that she gave me bad advice deliberately because of said jealously.
I hung on trying to be a good friend for 10 years. In truth she was hardwork from the start, I attempted to end the friendship many times but I felt bad and disloyal. I eventually called time 7 years ago when I finally accepted that she was no friend of mine. She tried to befriend me once by turning up at my door with a hand written note that she read aloud. The contents of which started with I’m sorry if you do not thing I am a good friend. I closed the front door. I am blessed with friends old and new who are dear to me.
The ugly duckling got it right, he searched until he found his pack. It is your right to do the same.
think instead of thing
Hey L,
I had a similar thing- a “friend” who had a bad marriage and very spoiled, abusive daughter-with a woman around my age who only 1/2 the time went through with plans. The only plans she ever went through on, were when she needed me to prop her up. It was so one-sided.
She finally went too far and I just flushed her from my life. It was just too much of a drain. I don’t miss her at all; honestly, it is not worth the drama keeping freindships like that,I would rather be at home, on pinterest, than listening to her drone on and being used as an unpaid shrink. You need to respect and value you by getting this parasite out of your life. What kind of person admits to not calling people when their family is sick? Crazy and selfish, please flush her:)
I really like this post, it´s something I´m working on at the moment, but I´m not quite there yet.
The other day I got some IMs from the weirdo EUM (after I started NC months ago) telling me he wanted to come see me with his camera and take some photos of me and kiss me softly and blahblah. I didn´t really know how to react. He has been a complete *ss but there he was trying to be all sweet and do what he should´ve done ages ago.
Of course, it was just some lazy communication, checking if I was still available. He never really intended to do all those things he IM-ed about.
But now I´m wondering, how do I cope when some future faker sends confusing messages? What would be the most self respecting thing to do?
I did block him after this – finally – but I am still very angry that I believed him, even if it was for a short while.
A part of me wants to show him he can´t treat me like one of his harem ladies, and in my mind I´ve told him over and over “Who do you think you are?!” “Why do you think you can treat me like I´m an option?”, another part wants to never even think about him again.
Lilia
Listen to the part that wants nothing more to do with him. The other part is mainly hormones and fantasy (yes so sorry everyone it’s not the great love you think it is).
If they’re not treating us right, what’s the point of the relationship? The point, such as it is, is for us to make them treat us right, or for us to win them over, or impress them, or entertain them. Or be the martyr or the florence. Or to keep our distance cos it’s not that great a relationship anyway, or to avoid making the decision to break up. None of those things have anything to do with treating yourself right or a mutual relationship. I have more clarity now I’ve met someone consistently kind and thoughtful.its easy, no drama, no confusion, no desperation, no dysfunction being worked out. I worked it all out long before I met him. Take time to do that, treat yourself right rather than waste time chasing someone you don’t want anyway or hitting up other men for attention. Something in one of Nats books struck me – it doesn’t just take time to grow and move on, we have go do something with that time. Thinking about them day and night gets us nowhere. I’ll save you the trouble. I dedicated myself to it for three years and it achieves nothing but make you feel crap. What moved me on was taking care of myself, my job, my home. He’s gone, let him stay gone. Don’t give him space in your mind. well, just a bit but commit yourself to yourself and that bit gets smaller and smaller until its gone. Yay
And it’s not about being selfish. I’m a much better daughter, sister, friend, aunt, colleague, church member since I stopped obsessing about a mere bloke and looked after me instead. It’s the circle of life! You’ve only got so much energy, don’t give it someone who isn’t even in the room.
By not responding you *are* showing that he can’t treat you like one of his harem ladies. Good job.
Thanks girls!
I still can´t believe all the girlish silliness that popped in my mind when sleazy harem king found it fit to entertain himself with me again.
At 40 I really should know better, right? So I´ll share some of the idiotic things I thought:
Oooh he wants to see me, he must´ve realised he does like/love me… he probably really missed me and is ready for a proper relationship… when he comes over it´ll be awkward but we´ll kiss! and later on we´ll have wonderful sex! and he wont be able to be EU once he has been physically intimate with me… maybe we can take a photo of us together to post on facebook… my girlfriends/mom/BR ladies will be so pleased for me… or no, maybe they wont, they´ll be concerned because they know how he has behaved in the past… and he has made me feel like cr*p, that is true… and it would be hard for me to trust him again, if not impossible… and do I really want to see him in my nice house? am I even attracted to him? aargh not really! Actually, I can´t stand him!
Well at least this time it took me about an hour to come to that conclusion. I hope next time I´ll be able to skip all the illusions and tell him to F**k off right away.
lilia!!
hang on a sec.
you are seriously berating yourself for spending an hour fantasizing? after which you told him to fuck off?
we need to give ourselves a break! would it have been nice to have rejected him out of hand so you’d feel prouder of your own thoughts….yeah, ok, yes. but please do not beat yourself up because you want a partner who loves you, with whom you create joy, and this EUM tapped into that, TEMPORARILY i might add, when he messaged you. because, ultimately, lilia, you did the right thing! you flushed him! whatever brief fantasy you had, you took the correct action! you don’t deserve your own criticism, you deserve your own medal.
we need to be kinder to ourselves. please, let’s all be kinder to ourselves.
You know Natalie I just don’t get it. When I read your posts and your books, it seems so clear. Yet, I existed in some sort of fog for the past 53 years? Yeah, I so thought that if I could convince “him” or a friend to treat me with love, care, trust, and respect, then I was worthy of being treated with love, care, trust, and respect. My self worth was determined by some guy or some friend? I’ve always led by example at work but it never dawned on me to lead by example with regards to me, until recently. It is totally a different mindset. I like it a lot. It really is the case that I can give to me what I gave to them. I’m still working hard though. Thanks to you, I can now recognize a crumb and say no thanks. He or she is not that special and I’m not that desperate. Phew, the nightmares have stopped based on the Chopper post. That one threw me for a loop. Maybe the nightmares were a combination of processing chopper trauma and spraying Raid to combat the ants! Same thing,I guess. Cheers to all…as I clink my can of Raid.
Yeah you get the love in life you think you deserve.
If you’ve made a mistake, how you deal with it is more important than the mistake itself. So if I ever find myself again admitting a past mistake I made to a partner, and he tells me I’m a bad person or gets overly critical, I’ll turn it around and say “So you’re perfect, are you?”.
For some people “treating others as you’d like to be treated” means living up to a set of proscribed rule-based values. Whilst that element is important, I know that it’s better to not to be so black and white. Good people reflect; bad people rationalise their behaviour so that it fits with those rules while still being morally questionable. An example of that is someone who thinks honesty is absolute and will be hurtful towards others because “telling it like it is” is supposed to be a good thing. Or it could be a situation where someone tells you that you’re “overreacting” or being “too emotional” to detract from their responsibility for their actions – but no one can tell you how you should feel. It could be a man buying expensive gifts for a woman because he wants her in bed and not because he is being genuinely affectionate. There are plenty of other examples. It’s manipulation at its finest; and those people will try and settle the score with you by saying that they are generous, or honest . Sometimes they do it because they’re cool and deliberate game-players, and sometimes they’re just narcissistic and delusional.
You only know what you’re doing is good in your heart, if you can look at yourself and know that you don’t have an outright agenda. And if you do have an agenda, you should acknowledge that you do and it might save you from acting impulsively and irresponsibly. I reflect on that point and it’s helped cement my boundaries. I only see a good deed as good if it comes from the heart. If someone does something good only to expect something in return, I won’t fall for it.
For me this post ties in with Natalie’s last one and I think the penny’s finally dropped!! Like many of us here, the emotional fall-out from my ex ‘relationship’ has left my life and self-esteem in tatters. I don’t trust myself and I’ve been treating myself much like he did with no love, care or respect and this, I finally get, is the problem. 10 weeks NC, but I’m sorry to say I’ve still been holding on to a tiny hope that he will eventually validate my feelings. The loss of what was to me a meaningful relationship has been complicated by the painful loss of my baby. I wanted the opportunity to discuss it all, but he skilfully denied me the chance. My attempts were met with avoidance, ambiguity, ridiculous attempts at humour and worse, cold-hearted cruelty (in the name of ‘honesty’ of course). For me, getting closure required an ‘exit discussion’ where we forgave one another and wished each other well. Pure fantasy, just like the relationship was. He didn’t or couldn’t give me what I wanted and I’ve since been in some sort of emotional limbo waiting for him to show that he cared and give me closure. After reading this post I’ve realised (at long last!) I can give it to myself. Ok, so he hasn’t contacted me, I don’t know if it’s because he doesn’t care, I don’t know if he’s trying to avoid being accountable and guess what I don’t give a shit. As of today I’ve made the decision to give myself closure and to start taking proper care of myself. As NML says if you want to feel and experience love, care, trust, and respect, you must learn to do these things for yourself first. I still think that denying an ex closure is damaging and destructive, but so is denying myself closure. Thank you for writing this post I’m going to start living my life and this time I mean it.
Lilly
10 weeks is not actually that long. For a long time I couldn’t work out why it has taken me so long to get over a relatively short, barely there, non-relationship. But it’s like being in a car crash, the worse the injuries inflicted were, the longer you will take
to recuperate. The desire to hear from them – it doesn’t just go away, but it dwindles gradually. You will think of it less often and less intensely. There isn’t a eureka moment when you “get it” and the feelings are gone. There are eureka moments along the way, which help,
But it is definitely a process. There’s a balance between reflection and action and as time goes by the balance swings towards action. And you realise one day that (for example) you no longer have that sick, sad feeling when you wake in the mornings. Triggers (songs, smells, places) no longer affect you any more.
You will get there and in the end you will realise that there isnt anything he could have said that would have helped. The day after I finished it with him (he was very very cold about it) I dreamed that he held me and kissed me and said he was sorry. That was my dream giving me what I wanted from him.
Life gets better all the time now, at times I feel really happy, though I can’t yet say I have forgotten him.
You will be okay too.
Mymble, thank you for your reply. It actually made me cry. If anyone shows me some understanding it sets me off. I agree recovery is a process. I’ve had so many stops and starts during the last few weeks/months. One minute I’m ok the next I can barely get up. I’m looking forward to the day when it stops hurting. I wish that for you too.
Lilly, I understand your craving for that last conversation, to wish eachother well, part on better terms, etc. But as someone that leveraged every ounce of her control over an EUM to finally get the conversation– it didn’t help. It didn’t feel good, it didn’t give closure, I didn’t move on. All it did was give us a chance to re-engage in destructive cycles.
The conversation CAN not and WILL not give you, what you need to give yourself.
Wise advice.
Lily,
This lack- of- closure conversation is not about you, it is about him. He is not going to do it, and that does not, in any way, reflect that you are not worthy of it. That reflects that he is not capable of it.
I laugh when I say this, because I remember getting so frustrated reading this very phrase, but closure IS really something you have to give yourself. Do what you need to do to have that closure. Write a letter and burn it. Write affirmations and post them. You give you closure, he does not dictate when you get that, you do.
Please stop taking it personally; he is a flawed person.
Excellent posting Natalie!
I absolutely love this post. I have a male and female friend who I was really close to. Over the years, the female friend has put me in some compromising situations by being extremely messy – so messy that someone has threaten my life! The male friend has never done anything direct to me but I watch him treat people poorly – men and especially women. I finally realize that these people are extremely self aborbed.
I do not want to be associated with selfish people period! They don’t know but I have internally divorced them. I’ve distanced myself from them. They are not my friends anymore but my associates. Sometimes I wonder – how in the world did I attract these selfish people into my life. I know that like attracts like. I thought that maybe I was putting out selfish energy to attract them.
I am at a place where things are really quiet. My facebook page is deactivated, I rarely get a text message (if so it’s a banking alert or my father), and I rarely get phone calls. I am going to use this quiet time to focus on the things I really want – to be at peace, to be grateful, to deepen my relationship with GOD, to be married and have a family, to have a successful business, to be a great mom to my son, and to have great, authentic friendships.
Dear Natalie,
I feel like I came across your blog just in time! Earlier week a guy I’ve been seeing for a couple months broke it off with me, and it’s made me feel depressed and like such an idiot for hanging on for as long as I did, putting up with poor behaviour and ignoring the red flags. Especially cos for the first few dates I really thought this one was finally different to the “ass-clowns” I usually date!
I really appreciate your wisdom and experience in this post and others and I’ve been reading them all week. Just now I was about to stalk his friend’s photos on facebook, but instead I went here, and read this. It made me feel so much better. I’m so glad that I resisted the urge, at least this time, to wallow in self-pity, scouring facebook and racking my brain trying to understand what I did wrong!
As someone who’s pretty shy and self-critical it’s hard for me to be good to myself. But I just wanted to say thanks for being such a great help… hopefully I can get there in the end!
Hi Tina
It was most likely a compassionate, listening loyal giving energy. I used to wonder the same thing. Distance and loving you I have found means that you start to attract kindered spirits.
I used to think that being very nice and helpful to others was ‘treating others the way I want to be treated’, so it seemed like the universe was always laughing at me when the objects of my niceness treated me like shit. It happened a lot. I started withdrawing from people because I got so tired of being shit on. After A LOT of introspections, I see that I was trying too hard, giving way too much of myself and sending the message that I was okay with sacrificing myself for the well being of others. People took advantage of me and were actually put out or disappeared when I needed something from them. I also learned that I surrounded myself with people who thought nothing of taking advantage of me, maybe because I ended up settling for people who appeared to need me because I felt validated by it. Putting myself first (even saying that sometimes still sounds selfish to me, jeeesh ) felt foreign to me. Being kind to me is something I still need to remind myself to do, but I understand why it’s vital to having true friendships and someday a loving relationship. Thanks for the reminder Natalie.
Selfish. I like to think of it as Self First.
@Tina
Sometimes you just have to disconnect. Nothing better than putting you first and cutting out people that don’t add value or fruit to your life. This is something that I found myself recently dealing with and I have come to realize that it’s totally normal when you are at a different place in your life and you are headed in a different direction and you out grow certain people and that can be both men and female relationships and sometimes even family. It’s called Growing. Best of luck to you. 🙂
God, I LOVE this site. Natalie, thank you for sharing your hard won wisdom with us. You’re further along the path we are all treading and it helps tremendously to see the things you’ve learned actually work and lead to a better, healthier life. Bless you.
Selkie…I used to struggle with being “selfish” too. Because we’ve been “named” selfish by people who aren’t getting what they want from us at the moment they want it. Selfish isn’t necessarily bad. It’s actually neutral and means that you are taking care of an giving to yourself. Selfish is negative when it’s used to take from and diminish other people for your own ends. So please be selfISH…it’s much better than what I used to be which was selfLESS. As in, I didn’t really let myself receive…I had no sense of self at all.
I’m so very happy I’ve found this site…it’s really clarified things for me and is making all of the pieces fall into place.
I have appreciated all of the supportive sentiments and common good sense that Natalie has put forth here. A concept that I would like to share is that like medicine and food…some relationships have a short shelf life or a definite expiration life. We clean out out old make up and toss out the old stuff from the frig. The same goes with friendships with family, friends and lovers. When it starts to go bad….toss it!!! As my young daughter says so well…” When it is not working for you…don’t work for it!” That is the healthy way to eliminate unhealthy drama!
Thank you Natalie for great post. You are right as usual, somehow I fixed myself with men and my best friend (who used to put me down, and I am 2 months of NC with her), but it is hard to do with my work collegues. I know they love and respect me for my babbly personality, but when I need pay rise, I am getting all over shy and cant ask for it? EVEN I feel that I deserve more than others:-( I really want to do this, but getting very insecure and scared to mention this to my Manager?! Ohhh…
Lilia,
your thought process kind of made me laugh as I recognise it from my own head!
Glad you came to the right conclusion in the end.
🙂
I think there’s actually something wrong with me…
Yesterday I was really angry and frustrated that the ex hasn’t been in touch with me and wrote him a big angry text saying that if he didn’t want to be my friend he should have said so instead of pretending he cared about our friendship for so long etc etc …
I guess I was trying to provoke him into a conversation , I was thinking ‘ok well he’ll want to keep things smoothed over with me because we have so many mutual friends, so if I talk about how he’s acting like he doesn’t want to be my friend that’ll mean he’ll HAVE to make an effort with me cos he’ll be afraid of what I’ll say about him to other people…”
and it was around about here that I caught myself and thought what the hell am I doing?!?
I dont even want to be his friend!!! This is nuts!! What the hell am I doing?! So I deleted the textand didn’t send it.
And it reminded me so much of a breakup years ago with a different guy. I broke up with the guy and weeks later he asked me to meet up. I went and we kissed a bit and then pulled away and said I’m sorry that shouldn’t have happened, I wanted to meet up as friends, nothing more, we shouldn’t have kissed’. And from that moment on I was determined we were getting back together. I spent months (almost a year) chasing him even though I had dumped him in the first place! I was devastated when he kept saying no.
And now years later , once I moved on and made so many improvements in my life, he came back asking to give it another go. I said no.
But with all the improvements in my appearance, career, social life I’m still
in the same situation just with a different man.
With the current man I have realized I wanted to be his girlfriend not his friend, so why do I have this NEED for him to contact be trying to be friends .
Ai ai ai Im going to take a break from dating until I sort this out, like 4/5 months at least.
Confusedd, congratulations you caught yourself before you hit send. That’s progress. Nope, don’t settle for being a friend (whatever that means) in hopes of being upgraded later. There’s no shortcuts and no back doors. I took a year off of all men, not saying you should, but it’s different now. I spent most of my life trying to get some guy to prioritize me when I wasn’t prioritizing myself. 2 years as a miserable wreck of an OW brought that lesson home in spades. Act and treat yourself as you are a priority. I’m still a work in progress and only manage to remember sometimes with regards to my daily routine. So far, I haven’t forgotten to lead by example with guys. You really have to value yourself. Your NEED for this guy may diminish with time and work. Take a break and pat yourself on the back for not sending the text! There sure were some texts I regretted sending as I was in my attention/validation seeking mode.
great tip Natalie… so important .and so easy to overlook.
NML, love this site and thank you so much for everything! Your words of wisdom gave me perspective on a recent experience. The guy below is certainly not worth my time or treating me how I would treat myself or others; I’m still wasting energy on what to do/how to proceed. Advice welcome!
I went to a club with a group of friends including a very recent hookup (also a fairly good friend of mine) and watched him basically acting as if he was on a date with this other girl in our group and ignoring me. (He paid her cover, walked in with his arm around her, bought her a drink, danced with her pretty much nonstop from the start of the evening).
The previous night we had spent some very romantic and extended time together. We had spent the next afternoon and evening leading up to our trip to the club talking suggestively about plans for the evening. I had asked him to save me a certain (sexy, inappropriate) dance at the club. He had pretty enthusiastically agreed. However, when that particular dance began, he just continued dancing with said other girl (who, by the way, I had driven there!). When he saw me watching them, he seemed to try to distance himself from her/dance with less sexual charge.
I walked to the bathroom (he saw me do this) in the middle of their dance and stayed there for a few songs to compose myself. It’s one thing to assume we’re both seeing other people (and we are, as it was only our second hookup and things were still new – I was also seeing other people and not expecting exclusivity at this point, although we had talked the previous night about how physical intimacy without commitment was difficult and wanting things to “mean” something…), but it’s quite another to *watch* it, and another beast entirely to find out about the other folks in that person’s life by watching them in action over a time you thought would be a romantic time between you and said person.
When I returned from the restroom said guy was suddenly very attentive and said we should have the next such inappropriate dance. I said (somewhat coldly), no, it wasn’t too important and how about we could just dance it appropriately. He said we should have the next dance together, I said we didn’t need to, then the next song came on and we started dancing awkwardly. While we were dancing, the other girl came over and suddenly he started to distance himself from me. So I said, “okay, you two should dance,” and pushed them together and pulled myself away. He proceeded to alternate between trying to be attentive to me while I was cold and being very romantic with the other girl (dancing, drinks, etc.). When he would try to attend to me, the other girl would seem unhappy. When I would be cold, then he would also seem unhappy.
So this experience left me with some unresolved feelings/questions.
1) Were my actions appropriate?
2) Were his actions appropriate?
I know we weren’t exclusive, etc. but there is still I think some line that got crossed here and the behavior seems typical AC/EUM to me… I think it’s one thing to be nonexclusive and another to rub someone else’s face in that non-exclusivity? If/when I am dating multiple folks, I try to be discreet about it and avoid situations where I am juggling two people at the same time and venue… (and I hate seeing more than one person at a time…)
I also dislike that apparently when both of us are in the same place, I come in “second.” I deserve way better. However, the two of us have a lot of friends (and good memories) in common. How to proceed?
So far: I tried to get him aside for a few minute conversation re: we have to stop hooking up/meeting on such casual terms. But he’s been MIA/hard to pin down… Trying NC or at least limited C for the near future.
Analyze
I spy drama. It’s not about who dances what with who and where and why or who drove who where. He is obviously not looking for any kind of exclusive relationship anytime soon. Cut your losses and have nothing more to do with him. With any luck so will the other girl. However, I fear that you and she will be dancing around him for quite some time wondering why, why, why?
Because you care more about this man and his dancefloor antics than you do yourself.
I’m sorry you hooked up with him twice, I’m sorry that you’re trying to convince yourself that you’re okay with that. But I’m really very sorry that you can’t see this for the pointlessness that it is.
But if any part of you can see it, listen and exit.
Don’t bother trying to pin him down. Hes not bothered and good riddance to him.
Thank you, Grace!
I definitely do see this as pointlessness. I think reading this blog has helped in that regard, actually my first response mentally when I realized what was going on was “I don’t deserve this treatment, noone does!” rather than wondering what might be wrong with me that would make him act that way. I was hurt, certainly, but hurt that he would behave with such insensitivity rather than with thoughts that I had done something to provoke his actions.
I am not sure how to go about an exit in the best way for myself. What I mean is, said EUM/AC and I have a lot of mutual friends, and I enjoy spending time with them, etc. I was hoping to talk with him to explain that we can’t hook up like that again, because I thought it would feel better for me to just verbally set the boundary (to complement the mental one I’m trying to set). Since the AC is unresponsive to that effort to get in touch, I’m just doing NC until I feel ready to rejoin that social group again…
At the time, I also tried to make a point of being upset with him and not the other girl, and not reacting overly dramatically. (E.g. while I avoided him, I didn’t cause a scene, and I dignified his comments/approaches with short/curt responses rather than total rebuff, and I think a majority of folks outside of the three of us wouldn’t have noticed what was going on – I danced with a lot of other guys that night, all smiles, etc…).
Fortunately he’s moving away in the next few weeks, and so hopefully this weirdness/awkwardness goes away with him.
They were certainly appropriate for YOU, nothing wrong with anything you did.
Having a lot of poly experience, though, there is a lot to be said for being honest about how you are feeling instead of trying to put on a face.
“I feel really uncomfortable/awkward/unimportant/bad right now, I don’t want to feel this way and I don’t know what to do, what do you think?” or whatever is true for you in the moment can go a long way towards building bridges over the rough spots. In my experience people’s minds rift the most around feeling guilt over their feelings for more than one person at a time, and when everyone tries to put on a good face it creates more rifts when good communication could create some interesting breakthroughs.
I love love love BR! AND… learning to communicate my vulnerable feelings in the moment using feeling messages as taught by Rori Raye has turned my whole life around in just a few weeks, so you might want to consider the value of being open with your thoughts and feelings. It doesn’t have to be a big scene or dramatic. Just in the past few weeks, time and time again when I would have shut down and written someone off as a jerk in the past, I’ve been totally surprised by what happens when I say how I feel and ask what the other person thinks.
Thank you, Sunshine. I definitely would like to talk through with said AC my view of the situation, briefly, and my conclusion (no more hookups)!
However, he is busy avoiding discussions and inviting me to large group events, which I have not been attending… I may send him an email going through what I would have talked through in person (for my own good), but not sure it would help or is worth it. Perhaps I just need to close this chapter of my life.
Analyze
“I may send him an email going through what I would have talked through in person (for my own good), but not sure it would help or is worth it.”
It’s not worth it. He’s not worth it. Whatever you want to say to him can be said perfectly well, and more effectively, by not saying anything more to him at all. As Grace said, he’s not bothered – so why should you be? If you don’t do anymore hook-ups with him, he’ll get the message that you’re not doing anymore hook-ups with him! You don’t need to spell it out to him in an email and you certainly don’t need to explain yourself. Don’t waste your breath – or anything else on this guy (his antics on the dance floor show that he wants his ego stroked – among other things – and to keep his options open. If you don’t want to be an option for him, just don’t be one.)
Thank you, Fearless. Any advice on how to deal with him when I run into him in public? It will happen, we have a lot of mutual friends. I think an understanding/talk could help, b/c I dislike being repeatedly cold/blowing people off and fear I look like a crazy arse myself in those situations…
AT
You are allowing yourself to be a FBG.
There’s nothing to discuss with him, he behaved like a horrible arse, and was no doubt loving have two women competing for his attention. I bet he was boasting to all his mates about all the drama and glaring and flouncing around going on.
Don’t compete for that bag of shite. In fact reject it by NC.
Thank you, Mymble!
I was trying to avoid competing for his AC affections. I made no efforts to approach him while he was with the other girl, and when he tried to approach me later, I blew him off. Any glares, I hope, were aimed at him and not her! I really don’t bare any ill will towards the other girl, I actually think she’s pretty cool.
Still, it’s hard to experience this typical AC behavior, even knowing it’s totally inappropriate and unacceptable behavior (thank you for agreeing with me there!) on the part of the AC. Very glad the hookups did not involve sex (although he was certainly pushing for it!).
I do want to keep the mutual friends I know through him, though. I am not big on harboring ill will, I just want to preserve my sanity, etc. How to go about ensuring I keep mutual friends while minimizing contact or having NC?
Analyze:
I´d say never ever accept any situation in which you have to compete for a guy´s attention – be it a married man, player, or the vain dancer you wrote about.
You don´t need that.
And you don´t need to hide your feelings about it, if you feel like walking away when someone you hooked up with starts to flirt with someone else in your presence, please do. It gives you dignity, not the other way around.
I agree that there´s no need to explain anything to him, it´ll only be an extension of the ego boost of having two girls twirling around him. Just ignore him. Treat him like he´s the most boring/unattractive guy you know. Use the whip of indifference, nothing is more appropriate, really, what an *ss.
Hugs and take care of yourself.
Thank you Lilia! I basically did walk away and avoided his advances for the remainder of the night (and skipped/’couldn’t attend’ the next two big events he invited me to the next two days). However, part of me thinks it would help/be most authentic for me to tell him, “this was not acceptable behavior” in person. For me, I think stating limits can sometimes be empowering, as I feel like I all too frequently have let my boundaries get trampled upon, and sometimes stating things helps clarify them for me. Like the experience (and memory) of saying these things calmly to his face could serve as a nice bookend on the experience.
That said, I agree that he doesn’t deserve the extra attention. Talking to him, I do think, would be more about me and my needs than about him, and it certainly wouldn’t be about his needs!
However, knowing that he is EUM + AC, I think to talk to him I need to be pretty certain of the boundaries I want to set prior to the convo, and not be swayed by anything he says (or expect an apology, if I get it, great, but he is an AC after all).
I agree with many of the previous posters. It is kind of a blow when someone tries to tramp all over your boundaries when you are doing your best to live by them.
I have been pressured a lot lately by women whom I called “friends” to settle because its become obvious that I am unhappy, am losing weight and am tired. As they are colleagues, they don’t I know about the at work AC. In the past month, I was criticized for not accepting an on line guy that lied about his physical characteristics and doesn’t want the same things in life that I do. Next it was the houseguest visiting from Vermont; I why don’t I accept him? Apparently living on the other end of the continent is no problem. Really? Now it’s the gun loving indigent guy that is helping me hold up beams for my building so I can fasten them. “What’s wrong with him?” Sometimes folks with good intentions are the worst boundary breakers. I feel I am doing the best I can under the circumstances, sticking to my values, being the best me I can be. Nope, I am not gonna be able to appear happy for a long time, yep, I am tired. but I don’t see how taking on a fixer upper or wasting scarce emotional energy on someone whom you don’t want to be with is gonna fix that. To “analyze this” dump his sorry “a$$” before you invest anything more in him.
Miskwa, who are these people who feel they can tell you who you should be into? I don’t know my new colleagues very well but I can’t imagine them ever pushing me to date so-and-so, and I’d assume that as I get to know them better, assuming they are the kind of people I’d become friends with rather than just stay colleagues, that there would be even less likelihood of such pressure. It’s just not appropriate.
Thank you, Natalie. This post is very timely for me. My difficulty with the word “no” has gotten me in trouble again in the last couple weeks. A new guy began pursuing me and I kept avoiding “being mean,” so I kept going along with things I wasn’t comfortable with, meanwhile making him think I was more interested than I was, and making me deeply uncomfortable with the situation. The truth was I *was* somewhat interested, as he seemed like a nice guy, but I wanted to just get to know him a little better, without anything physical. This finally culminated Friday night when he kept insisting I come over to his house after a party, and I kept politely trying to get out of it, and finally I gave in and said I would only hang out for 20 minutes and then go home. And once we were inside, of course he started begging me to spend the night, and so I finally told him I told him I wasn’t ready for a relationship. Then he got very upset and kept insisting I spend the night and then kind of forced me to kiss him. Finally I managed to get out of there but there was definitely a negative atmosphere by that point. It all felt too much like what I went through only a few months ago with AC#3, and reminded me again of why I got in that situation: because I have a very difficult time with the word, “no.” I could have avoided a lot of this if I had said “no” earlier on, but I kept wanting to avoid it, and kept going along with things. 🙁
Snowboard:
Please be careful! You could get yourself into dangerous situations just because you avoid saying “no”.
Try to find out why you can´t stick to what you want (which is not to go to a guy´s house at any given time), is it because you think you´re not entitled to your own needs? Are you afraid of hurting him?
I understand sometimes we spend too much time with guys we are not at all comfortable with because we feel bad about rejecting them, but you need to get the focus on you. If not rejecting him gets you in a negative situation, the priority should be you, not him.
Snowboard, one of my boundaries is no going to their house and no coming to my house in the initial getting to know them stage. If a guy seems interesting and I want to get to know him before anything physical occurs, he isn’t a nice guy if he pressures you and makes you uncomfortable. Feeling uncomfortable is a red flag for me. I’ve flushed several guys that jumped from a 1st date consisting of a 3 hour dinner to dinner at their house as a second date. Prioritize yourself and your boundaries. It has really helped me to write down my boundaries cos I had none and had no clue. The minute I feel uncomfortable, I flush. That includes online email exchanges. Thank god you got out of there. No houses. Write down your boundaries. It really helps.
Snowboard
You really need to recalibrate what a nice man is and who is acceptable to bring into your home. I don’t know the men so this is a guess but giving you attention, flirting, charm, pushiness, sexual innuendo is not nice and it’s not friendly.
Ask yourself why you find these men attractive or nice and whether you might be valuing or impressed by the wrong things. This is too many acs in too short a time period to be mere bad luck.
Yes it’s partly about saying no but also not even putting yourself in the situation where a no is required. Im not blaming you but there are things you can do to help yourself. By the time it gets to court and it’s down to what he said against what she said, the damage is already done.
Well here’s an example. On Tuesday of last week, he sent me a text at 7:30pm asking if I wanted to go out with him to dinner, as in *right then*. That is against my boundaries. I believe you should give advanced notice for a date. So I should have just politely declined. But instead I didn’t want to embarrass him or make him feel rejected. So I told him the truth, which is that I was baby-sitting a mutual friend’s son and she would be back soon and we were going to share a beer together and would he like to come over and join us. So he did. In retrospect, I should have just politely declined and said, “Thank you very much, but I’m babysitting right now” and been done with it. I have a real problem with saying no; I’m overly empathetic to the point I imagine he will be completely crushed if I turn him down, making it very difficult for me to stand up for what I want.
Snowboard
I’m not sure what empathy is but I think you’re doing it wrong. It’s not about assuming people have good motives whatever they do. What are you actually seeing? A pushy bloke. That shouldn’t make you think – “ah, he must really like me to be such an inconsiderate arse. If say no it will hurt his feelings”. It should make you think – this man is not respecting me, flush.
He won’t like it, but not for the reasons you think (again, your empathy is reading it wrong). he’s not hurt, he’s pissed at not getting his own way.
I’ve turned down a few last minute requests from the man because I had other plans. He wasn’t that bothered because a) he knows he’ll see me again because we are in a mutual relationship b) he understands I have other stuff to do c)he’s not a fukin egotistical insecure idiot. It’s not about gameplaying. If I am genuinely free, I am happy to meet up with him. And it cuts both ways. I’m okay if he doesn’t want to do things with me either. There’s always another time. What’s the panic?
snowboard-
its not at all clear to me why you worry about saying no, potentially “hurting a guy’s feelings”, when clearly all this particular guy wants from you is sex to the point that he tries to FORCE you to kiss him….i mean O.O!!!
exactly what feelings do we think this one guy has that will be “hurt”? do you think a guy who treats others in this fashion actually has any feelings worth considering?
you may not like my saying this, but i say it only with your best interest in mind: you need a serious course in self-esteem and your own value. you think you’re being empathetic – that’s not what i see. i see someone who is such a pleaser, and so out of touch with her own value, that she feels she must acquiesce to ANY indication of interest, no matter how base, no matter how low the quality of the person giving it.
snowboard, you are a worthy person, just because you breathe. you do not need to acceed to some horndog’s erection to prove that. your boundaries are for your protection, and you are WORTH protecting.
its not empathy, honey. not when the person you’re not empathizing with is YOU. yes, the sleazebag, abusing AC WILL go away when you defend a boundary – but that’s what the boundary is there for, to make him go away!
you do NOT need to accept every offer, and you MUST reject low quality offers. you won’t be alone forever if you do this – you will have you.
Snowboard, I used to be the same. The thing is, I was projecting my own insecurities on someone else. I saw EUMs and ACs as weaker than they are, when in fact they became complete inconsiderate bullies once I opened up to them.
Being empathetic is a good thing but it can be dangerous when you look at others as if they were you, with your reactions, feelings, etc. They are not you! Most probably they are very different.
So next time you start to feel sorry for someone ahead of time, pay attention and shift the focus on you. Turn it around in your head: if you don´t say no to his requests, will you be crushed? How will you feel? Be empathetic with yourself, not with someone you don´t really know!
Snowboard,
When someone is making you uncomfortable, or asking you to do something that you don’t want to do, it’s a red flag. Rather than letting someone put you on the spot or make you feel guilty for not doing exactly what they want when they want it, you need to ask yourself why this other person’s “want” is more important than what you want and feel comfortable with. Someone who is respectful will understand when you say that you’re not available to meet up (at the last minute) or when you decline to go over to his house.
This guy who kept pushing for you to come over to his house–you say that you had already politely declined a number of times. When you say no and someone keeps on pushing, that’s a red flag. This person was not respecting your wishes. You’re not hurting his feelings by saying no, he is being selfish and just pushing for what he wants, and disregarding your wishes. You need to make a conscious effort to talk yourself out of feeling guilty, or thinking that you’ll be embarrassing him or hurting his feelings if you say no. Remember: at the point where he kept on asking even though you had already said no, he was not respecting you, so stop focusing on what his feelings *might* be and stay true to yourself and what you want/don’t want. This guy was not concerned about your feelings, *you* were the only one there to stand up for you, so make sure that you do so!
If the situation becomes awkward because he refuses to drop it, that is his problem (and there are people who will keep on pushing and deliberately make things awkward to try to steamroll you and get past your boundaries).
Snowboard, I read your comment this morning and I had to stop looking at comments I was so appalled for you. I would be concerned with this as a standalone comment – I’m even more concerned that here we go again with you having the overactive over-giving impulse.
Let me ask you something Snowboard – have you actually stepped back from your experiences and learned anything? A few months ago you were ‘dating’ a neighbour who pretty much imposed himself upon you, literally, figuratively, sexually. You even contemplated marrying the creepy mofo when he was blatantly on the scrounge for a visa.
Where do you draw the frickin line? My goodness!
How the hell can a man be calling you up while you’re babysitting and then coming to meet you? A virtual stranger as well. You need to read up on empathy – you are so far from doing it, you could be in Narnia. I implore you for your own physical and emotional safety to *get.help.* Enough!
I want to add as well – much of your anxiety would dramatically reduce if you 1) had and respected your own boundaries without exception and 2) as others have rightly suggested, you stopped thinking about what you think others will do. You are neither that mighty or powerful.
Look up Chris Rock – he does a wonderful sketch where he talks about how men are *totally* used to being knocked back. You’re not the only woman to ever turn this creep down – *believe* me. I can say this with 1000% certainty. Why you think you have the power to emotionally cripple a man you barely know by saying “Er, not tonight luv” is what you need to look closely at.
When a man like this thinks you will do all this while barely knowing him, he *knows* he can pull all sorts of bullshit on you.
Thank you all for your very helpful comments. I know I have a lot of thinking to do. It’s hard to explain the situation over this website, just that there are a lot of complicating factors, including the fact we have known each other for over a year, have mutual friends, he generally has a reputation as a very sweet mild-mannered person, and he was doing a lot of nice things for me: paying for me, walking to my car, not being particularly touchy-feely, not being particularly charming or over the top, listening to my opinions and being supportive and sweet about the stuff I had to say, etc.
He texted me today and asked me if he could swing by tomorrow night after his early evening class in order to drop off something we had talked about he might loan me. We had a texting exchange back and forth, and I did say I would be too busy tomorrow but maybe another day, and then he asked me if I would like to go to dinner later that week and he could give it to me then, and I said we should def get something to eat sometime but I would be too busy this week but prob next week.
I don’t want to ever meet up with him again, but I also don’t want to be mean to him if I don’t have to be, but I know that Natalie is right, and that the problem is I can’t seem to *EVER* say no, no matter what the situation. I could say a lot more but I’m exhausted. I’ll write back here in a few days when I’ve got my head clearer.
I really do appreciate your concern, Natalie. While I was with AC#3, my OCD counselor kept encouraging me to give him a chance, then even after I had told her things like him using me for a visa she suggested I just enjoy him as a temporary guy for the company and sex, but she never encouraged me to do what I really wanted to do but didn’t have the strength to do – LEAVE him. So now I no longer see that counselor. You, meanwhile, were on me HARD to end things with him. Thank you 🙂
snowboard
forget the mutual friends and the walking to the car or how long you have known him or his reputation. The man and I had mutual friends, I’d known him for well over six months, he walked me home, he was nice to me and paid for stuff, he also has a very good reputation indeed. And yet people all over this blog, including you, were telling me to forget it or even switch churches. I myself decided we were just friends and pulled back until:
1. He specifically told me he liked me, and not just as friends. We both said we believed that the purpose of dating is marriage (provided your suited)
2. We went on a proper dates
3. We are recognised among our mutual friends and some of our family as a proper couple
AND IT WAS NOT UNTIL THEN – six weeks after our first date – that I invited him to my home. With a chaperone.
All of this popping over to men’s houses and vice versa is not conducive to getting to know someone in a low pressure non-sexual environment. Yes, you could have sex with someone on the first date or have them over one-on-one and start playing house with a week, and live happily ever after, but we already know that we’re not the women who are the exceptions to the rule.
And it boggles my mind that you are agreeing to see this man even when you don’t want to. You’re as good as telling him that you don’t mind him forcing himself on you. You’re telling him that you’re interested. You’re not interested and think that letting him believe you are is being kind to him. It could be called leading him on, and other unpleasant phrases.
And as for your former OCD counsellor, he wants striking off.
Sorry Snowboard, my comment was confused. To clarify:
It was worth me taking the risk with the man because – tada! – I was interested in him. And it was a reasonable risk, certainly not going round to his house alone. It’s not worth you taking any risk cos you’re not even interested. You’re being led by the nose into something you don’t want. I know how it goes. You could possibly end up having sex with someone you don’t even like. No means no but it’s muddied if you don’t say so.
And y’all were right that I had no solid evidence of the man’s interest at that time.
And, you, I’m afraid, have no solid evidence at this point that he is a decent person or a good romantic prospect (that you don’t even want). You do, in fact, have solid evidence to the contrary.
The longer you let this continue the harder it’s going to be on both of you (though I don’t have much sympathy for him). How about a text (since that’s how you’re communicating) the next time he asks you, saying something like “I’m sorry but on reflection I’m not ready to date anyone right now.” Cos I think that’s the truth!
And then say No thank you if tries again. And then ignore.
You treat yourself right by, firstly, not ignoring yourself. You can ignore him though.
“Let me ask you something Snowboard – have you actually stepped back from your experiences and learned anything?”
I’d argue I’ve more than shown on this website that I have been learning from my experiences, even if I’m still not as strong as I need to be.
When I arrived at BR 2.5 years ago, my problem was getting involved with EUMs/ACs, imagining myself desperately in love with them, getting screwed over by them time and again, and continuing to pursue them for years on end.
Now my problem seems to be getting involved with EUMs/ACs, recognizing them as such early on, *not* falling in love with them but nonetheless having a hard time getting away because I find it very difficult to say “no.” That’s progress, even if I still have a ways to go.
When my non-EU boyfriend from 2011 broke up with me, I immediately went NC, having learned from my past experiences of continuing to pursue ex-boyfriends.
I went NC with the guy I really liked this summer for no other reason than that he wasn’t showing interest, because I didn’t want to delude myself. I did that because I had learned from my experiences of hanging out with AC#1 and AC#2 as “friends” for years and having my self-esteem dragged through the mud in the meantime.
I could go on about all the ways I have applied BR principles in my life, but it would take forever, because it’s a daily thing I do now, and it impacts the way I engage with people, and particularly men, at every level.
My main problem now is that it’s very hard for me to say “no.” For obvious reasons, I had previously put all my focus on not falling for/pursuing unavailable men, but now I think I have more or less mastered that, and I need to redirect my focus on successfully saying “no” to men I *don’t* want to be involved with.
Snowboard
I get that you are making some progress. What strikes me after Nat’s comment and comments by others is that you still say this:
“I don’t want to ever meet up with him again, but I also don’t want to be mean to him if I don’t have to be”
Read Nat’s comment again on this. Saying ‘no’ to a man you do not want to see again is NOT being mean! And you do HAVE to say no if you don’t want to see him. There’s no escaping it and there’s no reason to escape it.
Are you going to say yes to every guy for fear of being perceived as mean? Again, what makes you think you hold all this power over how this guy would feel? I suspect that what he’d think is that you’re not the mug he took you for! This is the same guy who wouldn’t take no for an answer when he wanted you to come back to his house after a party for sex (yes, not coffee or a hot chocolate, sex) and then found it very hard to take no for an answer once he got you there! THAT IS MEAN! It’s verging on way worse than mean. And you think you owe him something? What exactly do you owe him? Civility? He didn’t offer that to you, so you do not even owe him that, but if you want to be civil you can say ‘no’ with a ‘thanks anyway’. That’s civil enough. Saying to him ‘yes, but maybe next week’ is mean (if we even care!) cos you don’t mean ‘yes’ you mean ‘no’. So, say what you mean -‘no’.
You need to think again about what constitutes ‘mean’. You can’t go about your life doing everything any old bugger wants you to do because you think they might think you are mean. Who cares what they think. Let them think what they want. The sky will not fall on your head or on theirs. No-one will die! If you don’t want to do something then don’t do it. Saying to people ‘no, thanks, this is not going to work for me’ and sticking to it is not the same as being mean. You need to get that. And I agree with Grace that your counsellor should be struck off! He/she was worse than useless.
Maybe go back to Nat’s recent article on ‘people pleasers’. Not being able to say no to anyone is to give people carte blanche to walk all over you. Take your pick, learn to say no or be a doormat.
Thank you Fearless. This conversation has been very useful for me, helping me to re-focus where I need to do work on myself. I’m actually checking out a book today from the library called, “When I Say No, I Feel Guilty,” which is supposed to help with being more assertive. I’ll let you know how it is.
snowboard-
i don’t know if this is off the mark, but i thought of it, so i figured i’d write it.
sometimes, actually, all the time, when i have said yes when i meant no, it was because:
– i was afraid that no one would ever approach me again
– i was afraid of being alone
– i fantasized that the frog would somehow turn into a prince
– i didn’t believe i deserved better than the crap offer i was being made
– i was lonely
– i was bored
i just wonder if it isn’t all lack of assertiveness?
hugs
cc
Hi CC,
Thank you for your thoughts. I know all too well about the frog-to-prince fantasy, or as Natalie would say, the cockroach-to-frog-to prince fantasy. 🙂
Actually, my experience with AC#3 left me utterly perplexed and, really, until this week, I couldn’t figure out what in the world I was doing there. I kept trying to make sense out of it and really never could, because I genuinely didn’t even want to hang around him, I was frightened by him, I found him psycho, annoying, kind of stupid, embarrassing to be seen with, etc. I couldn’t fit my dislike of him into my long-time narrative of saying, “I fall for ACs because I have low self esteem and want their approval,” because I never fell for him, despite what I may have said at different times (even on BR) to justify my being with him.
Only now I realize the reason I couldn’t make sense of my experience with him was because the experience simply didn’t fit into my old narrative about my problem with men, because my old narrative is no longer the case for me. I’ve changed, and I don’t have the same problem I used to.
What is going on for me now is that I have a very difficult time saying “no.” It’s not just with men (although that’s where it is worst); it’s with everything. Much of my OCD therapy has been based around me having to “force” myself to inconvenience strangers, because inconveniencing stangers (e.g., walking across a crosswalk when a driver is waiting, asking a salesperson for something from the back room, taking too long ordering food at a fastfood restaurant when there are people behind me, etc.) causes me overwhelming amounts of anxiety. I’m a hundred times better than I was a year ago, thanks to the miraculous power of Prozac and CBT, but I still have a lot of work to do.
I hope you’re doing wonderfully, CC. 🙂 Many hugs
I had a real epiphany today, and some of it came from this article.
I love cooking, I am vegan, there is nothing that makes me happier than cooking for others and sharing really tasty food. I have been, for several years now, wanting to do something on the side with this talent/hobby but I don’t know what.
Yesterday I was thinking that the one thing that I miss, about my last relationship ( with a guy who was really not too bad) is the comradery of cooking: every weekend we would cook veggie food and take pics, go to the store together. It was our arty thing. Since then, I still cook every weekend at least one day, but I have no one to share it with aside from hauling it to work or friends. I was feeling kind of sorry for myself and wishing that I had another boyfriend to share this with…and then suddenly, stupidly, it hit me…
Is anyone really stopping me?
What is stopping me from making a small little blog; with all my pics, my recipes…I have them anyway, what is preventing me from sharing them with others?
It sounds dumb, but it had never occured to me that what I have been doing is perfect fodder for a little vegan food blog; I just never had the thought to do it, it just seemed like something that I could only share with a man, or when I made dinners for people.
I am going to treat me well and indulge my artistic need for creation by setting up some time this week to investigate that. I need to treat me well, and take my passions in life seriously. I don’t need a man to give me the opportunity to do this…duh?!:)
Congrats on your realization, dancingqueen! It is quite a relief when you find out you can do things by yourself, I had the same experience when I found myself single again after 10 years of feeling less than.
Let us know when you have your blog out, I´d love to learn more about vegan cooking!
go dancingqueen! if you start the blog, post it here …. oh, wait…NML, is that OK?
@Dancingqueen
This is such a brillian idea – reframing and refocusing what is important to you and making it work. Good Luck with the blog, I will read it for sure.
Dancing Queen. I think your idea for a vegan blog is wonderful. A friend of mine writes one and I love reading it, seeing all her colorful pictures and learning new recipes. I’m excited for you! Go for it.
aww ladies my heart is warmed;thanks so much for your support! You guys are too great!!!
It is so true that we often don’t see the options right in front of our noses… I will most definitely share my blog with you all, once I get it up and running. I think I even have a handle for it: “Verdant Vegan: greening life one meal at a time…”
It was so much fun cooking yesterday with that at the fore-front of my mind: I went for my morning jog and my mind was churning with all the recipes that I wanted to share. I made bbqed blackeyed peas last night, rolled up in big, soft steamed collard leaves with squash and corn and homemade bbq sauce; they were super yum. The sauce is spicy with molasses and mustard and peppers and they were even better this morning. I took some great pics and my friends came over and voted on if the mixture was better in carmelized acorn squash halves with pepitas on it, or in the rolls…I feel so excited to start my first mock-up page and investigate how to get it all set up.
I love it when you discover something new to be excited about; life is so great when growing happens:) !!!
Been a while since I’ve hung around BR, but every few months I need a refresher course! I’ve been single for almost a year and a half after a 6 year relationship – taking about 8 months to reflect on myself and work on my own issues before being ready to date again. Let’s just say online dating is a real eye opener.. It’s pretty disheartening meeting AC after AC after AC. I swear I’m listed in their phonebook!
I’ve had many meetings and dates and so far it’s like they’re all playing from the same handbook. All the lines without the follow through. Other than the first guy I met who’s still a friend (and friend only for sure) I’ve never seen these guys more than once or twice. Now since I know (or try to know most of the time) whatever their reason is, it’s theirs to own, not mine. All I can do is work on myself and be the best I can and eventually I hope the right guy will appear.
I’m taking a break from online dating for at least the next month. I’ve been off them a couple weeks but still had a final date last weekend that was the best so far and a lot of fun.. though he admits he’s a narcissist lol so I know that’s not going anywhere. Plus I haven’t heard from him anyway. Got a solo vacation next month and I’m just going to look forward to that and leave the dating drama for another day… another month.. another year maybe lol. I’m so over it right now! Thanks for listening 🙂
I have found this website after starting reading mr unavailable and the fallback girl, which a concerned friend recommended to me.
So far, though I’ve not read much, everything rings so true it makes me cry over and over
I want to care, love and respect myself, but clearly at the moment I don’t and don’t even know how?
I was warned off the man I have been seeing, but the chase started, i was interested in him, and thought he can’t be that bad, I should judge him on how he treats me, not all the stories I’ve heard, and what harm can it do?
Slowly but surely I have fallen into a pattern, desperately happy when he wants me, hurt and depressed when he doesn’t. So accepting if his hurtful behaviour that it has become normal.
It ‘s been two weeks since he has contacted me this time after we had spent the night together, how do I find the strength to tell him I don’t want to see him anymore when deep down I do, but spend all my time trying to tell myself that it’s not good for me?
How do I find the strength to love me more than I love him?
UKGirl
You are, in fact, not seeing him anymore. There’s no need to tell him that. When a man disappears for two weeks, you’re not seeing him. If he resurfaces, ignore him.
He’s probably shagging other women as well, without a condom. I know how these men operate having been with one for a year.
Cut your losses.
You miss the fantasy of what it could be if he was a different person. That’s not the same as missing him. Get with reality and stop telling yourself he’s your uber-wonder lover rather than just another selfish,shallow, cowardly run-of-the-mill houdini.They’re everwhere, every woman has experienced one and they are not that special.
Step one to finding the strength is acknowledging reality. The stories you heard are true. What you have built up in your head is not.
Harsh but true – thank you x
UkGirl, there’s a reason why you were warned. While you’re free to make up your own mind, the point is that you do. So now, not only are you ignoring the warnings, you’ve now decided to ignore your own experience of him.
This tells me that you’re stubborn and are trying to be the exception to the rule. Of course if you like a man that’s blown in and out on the wind more than you like yourself, then the crumb attention of a man you slept with two weeks ago who has synced ignored you will look like a loaf.
No half decent man wants to be with someone who loves them more than themselves in spite of being treated poorly and fed on a crumb diet.
You don’t have a choice about loving and liking you more. If you can’t start treating and regarding you well, you cannot be with this man or any man. Desperation ain’t sexy. If you can’t date with your self-esteem in tow, don’t until you can.
You started out with this thinking “What harm can it do?” The answer – a lot. Now you’re burning up brain power over some fly by night jockstrap of a man who just isn’t that special.
yes, you are right the harm has been done and a vast amount of brain power burned up too
I know what I have to do, let the journey begin! – Thank you x
Ukgirl think of it this way; you don’t have to *like* what you have to do, you just have to do it. The good feelings come later, when that creates good in your life. So many things in life are like that right?
No one likes paying their mortgage lol, but we do it, to give ourselves the gift of a home. You need to pay that emotional mortgage as a gift to yourself, to make an emotional home for yourself that will be your refuge. Pay that mortgage every month:)!
Too True, I’m just starting to put a toe out there again online and in life and, thanks to BR, I spot ACs and not much else! Not that this is “The Last Chance Saloon” but time is less on my side… I’ve aged a lot and lost my mojo and cat’s meow looks during the last AC’s tenure! Thanks for that, too, AC!
Anyway, many people have narcissistic tendencies but are empathic. This is the key difference between normal and personality disordered. I hope you do some research about NPD if you’re even thinking of giving the time of day to a man who casually self-describes himself as a Narcissist. It is psychopathy under another name. This is an especially damaging disorder and, unfortunately, they can be the very best at seduction: Idealize, Devalue, Discard. So amazingly accomplished at all the phases…
Trust me on this ;(
Just to reiterate NML’s post relating it to dating, If we properly do unto ourselves first as we would do unto others, we wouldn’t be game for the EU’s, AC’s, tricksters, et al. Be careful out there!
So right FX! My ex has all the classic symptoms of NPD so I know it well! I’ve done a pretty good job and making it clear to all the narcissistic types I’ve met so far that I’m not that girl who will take it anymore and that’s probably why I never hear from them again! And you’re correct – that’s a good thing and I shouldn’t even wonder if he will contact me again.. I just should be happy that he hasn’t! I even told him “I’m not sure I even want you to call me again” but yet part of me still wants him to just to even the score a bit and get what I can out of it without getting taken in again. So far though, I tend to think I would be willing to do that, and even when given the opportunity I never follow through with it so I’m definitely getting there!
Thanks Runnergirl!
I’m gonna start with a 4-5 month break I might extend it if I’m enjoying it lol.
I have a feeling I will. I already feel more relaxed like some pressure has been lifted off me.
🙂
I’ve been down this road too. After a very messy divorce from a Mr Unavailable who left me with zero self-esteem I have started dating in the last 6 months. I’ve had quite a few disasters where I’ve put myself out there for disrespect and hurt. However I feel that actually all these men with THEIR various issues have helped me grow and I now feel in a very empowered, strong postition – I am definately on the no bullshit diet!! 🙂
I had a piece of advise that really helped me, when you get that gut feeling that something is just not right – LISTEN TO IT! I’ve done no contact and although it’s really hard – every time “he” pops into your head do something or think of something positive that has nothing to do with him. It’s hard at first, but trust me after about a day or so of doing it, it really works and you feel so much better. You get a real perspective on the situation and it helps you to look at your life objectively. My latest man and I have ended our relationship this week and I’ve done this technique and 4 days on I’m feeling good about getting rid of the assclown!! Good luck ladies 🙂
@Magnolia
The one colleague is a good friend of one of the guys I rejected and I think shes offended. However, anyone that lies about what they look like and cannot decide what they want out of life is not in my book, an adult. The other colleagues are I think misguided and just wish I could be happy so I’d continue arranging the social stuff that I used to. Again, they don’t know about the at work AC and they’re in relationships themselves so they have no clue what it’s like to be alone here. You are right though, it is major inappropriate behavior. I spose my lil ego is also a tad bruised when someone gives the message “this is good enough for you”. I am the one who decides what’s good enough and what is not. Hope things are going well with you in your new job and move.
The only thing I would say here Miskwa is that you’re on a site full of people who have been in unavailable relationships – many of those people consciously and unconsciously do not know what they want out of life. Those who say they do know keep contradicting themselves by being with someone who takes them off the path. That would mean that there’s a lot of ‘kids’ here.
yay! this is exactly what i was saying a couple weeks ago – as over givers, we need to treat ourselves as we treat others, as we would have them treat us.
…course i believe it more when natalie blogs about it…
Too True and FX,
Like you, I’ve become really disillisioned and fed-up with online dating. Same guy, different name. I’m feeling that it’s really true, the old adage that they’re online because they can’t cut it in real life. I’m going to stop this madness for awhile also. It’s just a waste of valuable time that could be spent doing something more constructive. I’ve met a man recently (online) who is older. Not exactly what I wanted agewise but he is very nice and seems to appreciate my personality. They all start out that way! I’ll see how it goes, but when my subscription runs out that’s it. Glad I only renewed it for one more month. Anyone had any real success using this method? I doubt it.
Didn’t mean to go off topic, but wanted to add my two cents to previous comments. I’m learning that what Natalie says is so true. It’s not about me, when they act like morons, run hot an cold despite my kindness and emotional generosity. However, it IS ABOUT ME in that I need to make healthier CHOICES. Using an a risky method of trying to find a decent man is probably not going to result in a positive outcome. You get out what you put in. Still working on being a healthier, stronger, smarter, independent SELF and lose the losers.
I am trying to fight my old ways. I recently initiated something with a “friend” of mine who lives in a different city. I was out with a group of people I know and had a few bevvies and decided to make-out with this guy.
He reciprocated and tried to get with me that night and the next day (no-go). I had stayed over in the spare bedroom but in the morning cuddled with him a bit. I was feeling a bit down and lonely after the last guy I was dating for 4 months (emotionally available – hurray!) turned out to cheat on me with a friend of mine. I flushed him immediately, her too, btw.
So anyway, guy-friend was showing a lot of interest in meeting up, hanging out, making meals, spending time together etc. I thought he was genuinely interested in me. I was starting to have strong feelings for him, I’ve crushed on him over the years. I finally decided to cross that line and take a chance on him. We hooked up a few weekends here and there when I was in town.
Since sleeping together, his attitude immediately changed, he’s being a complete EUM. I feel terrible about it.
He was incredibly affectionate and appeared to want more than just “casual sex” and now all of a sudden, he’s disappeared on me. He doesn’t care to do any work (commute, call, plan outings). I feel like an idiot and our mutual friends know we’ve been hooking up and I can’t talk to anyone about my hurt feelings without looking needy or like I’m starting drama.
I told him his actions made me incredibly sad and he spent the day with me to cheer me up but wasn’t offering anything relationship wise. He hardly spoke to me, said he’s not good at communication and when I said I couldn’t carry on in a casual manner he said it was probably best.
I know that’s my answer right there, I’m trying so hard not to keep going back (rejecting myself). In this situation I can’t flush b/c we roam in the same circle of friends but I’m staying away for at least a month to help me get over feeling used.
I realized that we were never really “friends” and that I don’t actually know him at all. I projected so much onto him. I’m trying to keep it real in my head now. I kept wondering if he’s afraid to open up and if I had shut him down by saying I couldn’t do casual, instead of asking what he wanted. But I know better now Natalie, I’m not going to do the one false move stuff to myself.
There are a million red flags and I thought, no, he’ll be different with me. Hardly. I can’t even say I wasn’t forewarned by a close girl friend of mine who said “don’t go play there, he’s got a heart of gold but he’s pretty effed up”.
Care, love, trust, respect! Lather, rinse, repeat!
Atrophy,
Before sleeping with someone, make certain you are on the same page. This is certainly no guarantee – as in my situation – but it could possibly eliminate the losers.
Main lesson: never believe you are the exception to the rule!
“Main lesson: never believe you are the exception to the rule!”-Allison Damn, isn’t that the truth! I wish I had chosen to believe myself as the rule in previous relationships. Hugs going out to you Allison, Atrophy and the rest of the BR group.
Atrophy
I’m seeing this a lot in the comments “we have mutual friends” the man and I go to the same church so I’m aware of the issues. You should in fact be more careful, not less. Things need to be spelt out. Dont just assume you’re in a relationship or he has good intentions cos you hang out a lot and it’s comfortable.
I think it’s handy to have some rules when moving from friendship to dating. There should be some proper dates, one on one time, he should treat it like a date.it is oldfashioned but I think most men are still happy to pay for you in the early stages. Slow it down. You may have been friends for months or years but count the relationship from when you start properly dating or declare your intentions.Don’t just drift from being friends to having sex.
You must bear in mind it will be awkward, you may lose friends or have to change church, gym, even workplace if it doesnt work out. So do your due diligence, is he treating you well and consistently, is he ready for a relationship, are you? Any red flags?
And we aren’t conducting ourselves for the benefit of mutual friends though I do wonder how mutual it is. Likely some of them are more his friends, some of them are more yours. You don’t have to all hang out like you’re still in school. These friends are not an excuse to break nc. Sure, you might run into him. Just say hello if it’s warranted and then run along or speak to someone else. The
friends are likely not as interested as we fancy and we are just looking to them to validate the drama. And if they are interested, act with dignity and they’ll start gossiping about something else soon enough.
And this may kill all our love lives stone dead but how about not getting so tipsy in their presence that we may do something we regret.
atrophy,
I think you have a problem as well; why are you pursuing a hook up when you want a relationship?
Hook ups are casual by definition. Not all guys do hookups. Many guys don’t. The real ACs expect and make a habit of it; by even going there, you are choosing to be treated as casual and not a relationship. sorry to say, but it is true…
Today, I think, circumstances put to test how much of BR’s insights I have internalised.
I popped out to check the athlete’s parade at Trafalgar after lunch … and then I saw my jobless ex (the MM who lied to me about being married, and confessed with another lie). He was with this woman. I don’t want to assume anything, but judging from the contortions on his face, it wasn’t an innocent acquaintance. How and when he acquired her, I have no idea. His divorce is not even cold yet, and he’s parading with someone already.
I was on the verge of wanting to face him. I haven’t really vented my anger to his face. TBH, I even got to the point of going back and hanging about just trying to spot him. I wanted so much to just let him know what he put me through, and then tell him that he should stop victimising women, etc.
BUT, I thought about this post and realised that if I were to do what I intend to do, I wouldn’t be respecting myself. It would be utter embarrassment since I am the one who would approach him. If he approached me first, I could have as well slapped him and walked away. It really is not my job to police him or rehabilitate him.
I thought I was going to end up crying, but I am not. It’s bizarre that I´m feeling more centred. On the way home, I actually got scared that maybe there’s something wrong with me. Maybe I have become numb, so I tried to summon the sadness and self-pity. I nearly did succumb.
When I think about it, I think for a minute there, that was me resisting to let go when my whole system is ready. I think I resisted because I was scared that this wouldn’t be the comfortable anymore – i.e. totally losing the connection with him. Yet, I am at peace. I am not ecstatic, but I am also not sad.
So …. yeah, after several months, maybe I am getting there. And I just wanted to thank this website and Nat and the many wonderful women here who have shared their experiences and thoughts.
B-
that’s great! and it is an inspiration for those of us who live in fear of seeing our exes, and seeing our exes with someone else, that it can be survived, thrived upon, even, without hystrionics, embarrassment, or paramedics or police being called.
thanks for reporting back, and congratulations.
B,
It’s encouraging to hear your story of letting go. I almost never run into my ex, mostly because I avoid him like the plague. I’ve stopped going to the places we both frequented because I’m afraid of the gut wrench and gut punch I might feel internally if I see him. I’m especially afraid to see him with someone else after he dumped me. I was strong in never contacting him after he dumped me, and its been almost 8 months NC, but I still don’t feel ready to be any where near him. Your surprise at your own progress into a new comfort zone gives me hope for my own. Thanks for sharing this with us.
CC and Selkie,
I’ve put in so much effort to avoid him. I banned him from going to the institute where we both go to. I don’t go to his side of town, and I don’t to hang out at places we went to.
To actually bump at him and see him in a very crowded place was unbelievable. I got to the verge of thinking that maybe I am cursed.
It has only been four months since I went NC, and 2 months since I found out he was never separated when we were together, and was informed (by his wife, nonetheless) that they were getting a divorce after finding out about how he deceived me and her!
So to see him that day (with a different woman), and for me not to break down was remarkable. I suppose it was the universe telling me that I’m okay, and trying to give me back my self-confidence. Knowing that ‘reporting’ and sharing my story has inspired you both is a bonus.
Hugs! And I think, there is so much to gain from the virtual support system here.
you’re not cursed, honey, you’re BLESSED:
– you dodged an AC bullet…even his own wife left him – there can be no greater validation. can you imagine the hell you’d be in if it had all worked out otherwise?
– you got to see him in a crowded place, which helped you. it would have been worse had you simply passed him/her on an empty street.
– you know your own two feet and your sense of self will support you in trying circumstances, reaffirming your confidence
– you learned valuable lessons and didn’t come away maimed
blessed, B. truly.
Atrophy. How is it we can so easily see through mistakes others make but can’t prevent our own? Don’t you think you are using this guy to get over the other EUM with whom you had a four month relationshit? When your heart and mind are not sincere you’re not meaning them or yourself any good. He probably could see that you are just out for kicks so why should he care how he treats you? Care about YOU, first. When you do you won’t have the interest or the time to waste on meaningless hook-ups to cure a bruised ego.
Tinkerbell
This is very sound advice. You should treat and advise yourself as well and as wisely as you do others – Bon courage!
Atrophy,
“I kept wondering if he’s afraid to open up and if I had shut him down by saying I couldn’t do casual, instead of asking what he wanted”.
I know that you know this, but I wanted to reinforce it for you–your comment was not one that would push someone away. It indicates that you want something more than casual in your life. If he wanted the same, he could easily have said so (or asked you what you wanted!) Furthermore, if he wanted a relationship, he wouldn’t have flipped the switch from hot to cold after you slept together.
You’re doing the right thing by moving on, be proud of yourself for seeing this guy and situation for what it is and acting on it.
Yes, I know Grace. I’ve mentioned on a previous post that I can advise others so well, but when it comes to me I seem to get lost in a pool of emotions, wish ful thinking, etc. I follow your comments all the time. Hope I can get to where you are, someday soon. I’m trying.
Ladies,
That is such sound advise, I feel regenerated after reading your posts.I spent a sleepless night yesterday after texting him, never got a response. I know he is not interested in more and I should leave it alone. Thanks, A.
I didn’t think it through and remember Nat’s post about using the back door (hookup) to a get a relationship. I see now that he was blowing hot and now all of a sudden it’s ice cold that he knows I have expectations.
Grace you are right, I don’t want to gossip about it and should be NC today forth. I want to kick my own butt for going about this in a wrong way.
Tinkerbell, I needed to hear that, I guess I did use him for an ego-boost and probably vice-versa. Although, I feel pretty strongly towards him right now.
Since it’s only been sporadic I think I can move on if I stop daydreaming a perfect scenario in my head that doesn’t exist in real life.
Atrophy,
Nothing to day dream about, the guy is not even responding. All pretty clear!
@Nat
I mean no disrespect to anyone on this site. Yep, many here, including myself, may be “kids” in some fashion, but WE are doing something about it. If a man doesn’t know what he wants in a relationship, he ought not to be pursuing women, let alone lying about his appearance in order to snag them.
Dancing queen, yes you are right, I didn’t think of it that way, i am usually very good at just getting on with things I have to do but don’t necessaryily like to do, none of them usually make me feel this sad though, I look forward to feeling much better soon when I can feel proud of myself and content with who I am. I have made some progress already, usually I would have called him if I don’t hear from him for a few days, may not sound much to some of you but quite a big step in the right direction for me – thanks for advice dancing queen x
Ladies, I always flush those who cross my boundaries. They get one chance and then go. Recently I had to flush a male friend who there was no romantic involvement with. I met him through a social group and we hit it off having so many things in common. He only ever texted and of course we crossed paths at the social group. I worked out he was a EUA and by his own admission he was selfish so I made it clear as time went on I wasn’t interested in a relationship but I think he was taken with me. Apart from meeting at the social group which was an easy and lazy option for him, he made a couple of arrangements with me and others separately. Without any warning he disappeared off the radar, cancelled his membership of the group and bookings made with it but never told me so I could let others know.
I should add that any man who blows hot and cold on me is flushed and told why the first time he blows cold. This was how I flushed this friend after a few days of no contact despite an e-mail.
P… letting 3 people down without any contact/apology is not what I expect from a friend and has crossed my boundaries. As you are not suitable friend material for me I don’t wish to maintain any contact with you. My decision is not negotiable so we are both quite clear now about this. Have a good life.
Flushing is good and I consider it to be like Spring cleaning. I refuse to let these selfish people male or female drag me down having learnt the hard way. I’ve had a hard life and have managed to overcome so much adversity and no-one is taking me back to a place I don’t wish to revisit.
Should just add that my NC comes after the flush and telling them why they are flushed. I have found that many men in my life have become boomerangs, but I just throw them off again and make it even clearer so they go period.
I was with my bf for 3 years, all along trying to be the good girl to please him, he kept giving crumbs of love, everytime I tried to discuss the relationship with him he would go silent on me, I got very frustrated and went into some kind of depression…
He would disappear on me then after some weeks he would come back, all the time blaming me for being a bad girlfriend, I came to think surely I was a bad girlfriend.. I was believing that nobody else would love me if I was to break up with my bf, we are both in our 40s, have both been married and divorced..
I have had 3 long term relationship after my divorce, when I analise the pattern, they were all the same type of men that I was dating, the drama was the same, until after several years were my ex eventually cheats on me with someone else and we break up, which after I find out they form good relationship with other women and 3 of my ex have gotten married….sometimes I fear the problem is with me, but why> im normally a nice and a beautiful lady.. whenever I meet a new guy its like very quickly they want to be with me all the time, my latest ex was like that too, when i met him he had recently broken up from his wife, I dont know but i seem to be picking up the same type of men, all of which their ex has dumped them for someone else, thats the story im getting over and over again…honestly ive come to a point were im scared to date again, ive got this fear of dating, since ive been single i find my mind is free, im not depressed over any relationship…..
when I read the Mr unavailable book I could see were i was going wrong in my relationships, I was basically trying to rescue these men and forgetting myself and who I was.. all the relationship I had was just draining me, all my energy and self esteem…
My last bf was so irresponsible, we lived together yet he couldnt careless if we had food or if his share of the bill was paid, he find so many excuses each month to give the smallest contribution to the house, when I argue with him, he would go back to his mums, saying she could live their rent free…I cant believe ive put up with all of this and over and over again take him back, he would even tell his family and friends whenever we break up, that im a bad person, im dramatic and so on…and people would look at me like im crazy…and I was starting to think that there was something wrong with me, cause alot of people who knows my ex was always telling me how a nice person he was, always helping others an so on and that women take advantage of him cause he is so kind…thats the portrait he paints to other people, ause honestly when i first started dating him he was so kind, he would cook for me, help alot around the house, yet what i failed to see was that I was the one who was providing for everything, a house, food, bills and so on….
I guess he saw that i had my own house,a well paid job, and he was staying at his mums…he also wanted to ge married as he said its a sin to be living together as he says he is a Christian and his church is pi=utting pressure on him to get married so we would not live in sin, I did speak to his pastor which i later found out that according to his church he couldnt get married to anyone cause he had commited adultery while still married to his ex wife…
When i confronted him he said I should not have approach his church, we had a massive argument and that resulted in the final break up…Now ive heard he said to his fellows at church that I was the one who lured him into sin and now hes fled from the situation to live a Godly life, but what hsi church doesnt know is that he is already seeing someone else and spending nights at her house….as me and my ex we live barely 1 mile apart in a small village.
sorry if this reply is so long..