If you’ve been involved in an unavailable relationship, or been frustrated by certain friends, family, or coworkers, you may have noticed something which if you don’t heed the real meaning, you’ll instead take it as some sort of indication of your worth:
These people are often very comfortable with disappointing you by failing to meet your hopes and expectations, plus promises and plans that they’ve made, yet they’ll practically break their neck to ensure that they don’t disappoint certain people. They’ll do things like:
- Thinking that it’s OK to cancel on you if a better offer comes up.
- Thinking that it’s OK to leave it till the last minute to ask you out / to do something because they’re exploring all other options.
- Expect you to say YES. Always. Even when they know that they’re disrespecting you.
- Expect you to be all adoring, accepting and forgiving no matter what they do so even when they eff up, they don’t exactly go out of their way to genuinely apologise and show remorse, often expecting you to ‘move on’ (read: hurry the eff up and get over it so that they can press the Reset Button).
- Breaking it off with you to go back to the same person and then coming back to you when it goes tits up. Or just ditching you every time a better offer comes up.
- Claiming that the reason why they treat you as they do is because, for instance, you’re the ‘strong’ one in the family or don’t need as much as the others, or some other weird reason to justify why they treat you differently.
- Failing to do something for you and then doing the exact same thing or similar for someone else even though you’re still waiting on them. Often they’ll keep telling you that they’re going to get to your job eventually but in essence they keep bumping you when something that they’re afraid to jeopardise their image over, comes along.
This can feel like a smack in the teeth and if you’re prone to internalising these experiences and inclined to correlate them to your worth, you’ll wonder “What’s wrong with me? Why are they being so nice to them / doing stuff for them but they’re not for me?” You may even feel like a fool and wonder why you’re the ‘exception’ plus it will cause you to question your judgement because even if you know that they’re just not that special and have in fact experienced some rather shady behaviour on their part, them pulling out the stops for someone else makes you wonder if you’ve misinterpreted their actions, or have missed the memo that informed you of what you’ve done to piss them off.
Their behaviour isn’t pretty, clever, or flattering and it’s only natural to feel away, or hurt and angry about it.
No matter how much self-esteem you have, in the first instance it smarts to experience that moment when you realise that really, you’re not a priority. You don’t rank high on their Best To Avoid Disappointing Index.
After the realisation strikes, it’s important to step back and see these situations for what they are – an opportunity to learn about the flipside to a person and how comfortable and confident they feel about maintaining the respect, trust, and affections you have for them no matter what they do. They know that you have them on a pedestal and that you have more confidence and love for them than they deserve.
People, rightly or wrongly, get a sense of how they can treat you and what they can get away with via their own actions and your boundaries which you demonstrate with your own actions and words. When you’re someone who strives to match their actions and words, as well as living congruently with your values, it’s very difficult to habitually disappoint people or even have one of those switchy personalities that picks and chooses who they want to roll out their nicey-nice and assholic character for, which is very inauthentic.
When you make a judgement about you based on how someone treats you, instead of judging their actions or at least the situation, you’re actually agreeing with what you think their assessment is and feeding into a widely held belief by people who struggle with low self-esteem, that inappropriate, unhealthy or even abusive behaviour has a rationale and can be accepted when the recipient of it isn’t worthy of something better, as if you’re communicating your worth and influencing their behaviour.
What you can learn from people who seem to think that it’s OK to disappoint you and to keep disappointing you, while appearing to be more conscientious with others, is that they’re clearly aware that they can and should act better and are actually capable of it, at least on a surface level, but they’ll show their real selves and let it all hang out to someone who they think will take them any which way.
The question you then have to ask yourself is: are you being the person who will take them any which way? Is it ok to disappoint you?
I learned from first-hand experience that if a person thinks that you’re blinded to who they really are, or you do know but don’t seem deterred, or they’ve been manipulative with their compliments to sell you their behaviour – “You’re so kind, generous, understanding, and supportive..” or even “I’m so glad you’re not like everyone else making demands on me..” – which you lap up and see as a compliment while they’re slipping their shady behaviour under the radar, they will gradually become increasing complacent and even careless about your feelings and your relationship. They’ll also feel free to disappoint you if they know that you’re validation hungry.
If someone believes that you’re so enamoured with them that you won’t leave, create conflict or consequences, or at least tell them to jog on (and mean it) when they try to push the boundaries, not only will they relax, but they just won’t value you enough to genuinely fear the loss of you.
When they can keep disappointing, it’s because they’re being believed in and given another chance, when really they should be getting the heave ho or at the very least, an increase in boundary security.
Of course disappointments can and will happen in life, because it’s inevitable that people, things, and situations will fail to live up to our hopes and expectations for them. That said, what you don’t want is certain people keeping you in their mental It’s OK To Disappoint Roladex.
No it’s not OK and actually whether you say it verbally or through action, make sure that you communicate this and stick to your guns, because when someone experiences medium to long-term consequences as opposed to short-term, hollow ones that they can eventually brush off and weasel their way back in on, they know to think twice about letting you down or recognise that they need to move on, because even if they appease you on a surface level like they do others, they’re never actually going to stump up with substance anyway.
And that’s something else to remember here – yes it would be nice if they saw fit to not disappoint you, but all that glitters isn’t gold and when you take them off their pedestal, you’ll see that due to their surface action, they have very little, if any, genuinely intimate, healthy substantial relationships. Even if you got what you think that they give everyone else, they’d still disappoint you on a deeper level.
The greatest amount of disappointment actually comes from continuing to hold out hope after someone has shown and told you who they are. Trust the feedback from their actions (or lack thereof) and instead of lowering your self-esteem, it’s time to adjust your perception and expectations of them, and act accordingly.
Your thoughts?
The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship is now available from my bookshop along with with Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl.
About the Author:
Natalie Lue is the founder and writer of Baggage Reclaim and author of the books Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship and more. Learn more about her here and you can also follow her on Facebook and Twitter - @baggagereclaim .
Natalie (NML) – who has written 1082 posts on Baggage Reclaim by Natalie Lue.
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Wow. This article is SO wonderfully timed. Yes, I am in a very happy relationship with my fiance (two more months until the wedding, thank goodness!) but that does not mean my future in-laws are wonderful. Trying to cross my boundaries left and right.
JUST last night he and I were talking about expectations and boundaries and this morning this article is posted that pretty much sums it up.
Natalie, please get outta my head!
*hugs!*
Damn! This is exactly what I’ve been experiencing in my friendships and in my past relationships. I’ve found out about this website about 2 months ago at a time where I was broken and confused after ending it up with the last AC/EUM (there’s been a long list of them over the past decade) It’s been a month since I’ve been NC with the ex and I’ve been injecting boundaries for the first time in my life ever since. I have faced my fear of ‘having no friends’ for the first time ever as well and guess what? A lot of friends are now wondering why I don’t accept their crappy behavior or their last minute cancellation or whatever any more. I’ve just realized how I used to put people (friends and exes) on a pedestal for no reason and have allowed them to treat me poorly a little too often because I feared/thought that I was not good enough to deserve them. I have finally chosen to put myself first and to trust my gut and it feels GOOD! Thank you so much Natalie!!!
@Nina -
SNAP! Parallel lives – I have made the same mistake and for exactly the same reasons.
I have a couple of female friends in my life who are a bit like this still. Both of them have mental/domestic problems of one sort or another, so I tend to cut them some slack about cancellations etc, but other people who burn me in this way get completely flushed.
I’m pleased and proud that I can now pick these people and don’t over-invest in the friendship. Now, to apply these rules to my romantic relationships … [furrows brow; groans]
Hey Etherelda, thanks for the support on your last post! I commented but NML had already posted a new one:)!
Pet peeves:
1. Disappearing after a date, unreturned calls, texts or other contacts
2. Continuously moving an event / something around
3. Shagging other people while chasing you – people often say ‘it’s ok unless there has been a discussion’ but seriously, they have their d*ck in someone else and they have the cheek to turn around an say that they’re interested in you!
4. Dropping hints that they’ll have ‘more time when X’ when you’re basically trying to extract hen teeth to get more time spent on you
5. I’m busy/I have a friend over/I’m not available then and then quietly NOT making an alternative time/date
TOA
I’ve experienced all 5 with one person! In a short space of time he relentlessly chased me, got me, then gave me every excuse in the book as to why he had to keep cancelling or couldn’t make it. My mistake was I didn’t just walk away. Instead I internalised the whole episode and allowed it to really get to me in an unhealthy way. Never again!
Sigh.
More is coming back to me now. The AC had a lot of friends who he spent a lot of time with, doing fun things. EXCEPT WITH ME. With me it was always 1:1. If him and I go together to do anything, it was never with his friends. In fact, the entire time we knew each other, I met his friends ONCE at his birthday. He said that ‘he wasn’t good with groups’ which is BS because the time we were seeing/talking each other he was off camping, doing things etc. Never included me, it was always ‘I’m so busy, I will have more time in a few months/when my car is fixed/blahblahblah.
Makes me furious just writing about it. How did I manage to be treated so sh*t and not realise this creeping up on me?
I think maybe it’s because we make excuses for them initially/give them the benefit of the doubt, and then keep it up for far too long. I can understand someone not introducing a person they are dating to all their friends at the very beginning of dating, but at least by a few months in…..come on. But you’re not the only one who has put up with things she should not have–I’m still alternately sad/angry remembering aspects of how the EU treated me as well. Live and learn I guess, and resolve to never make excuses for someone treating us in a ‘less than’ manner again.
TOA
Your post made me laugh. not cos it’s funny but cos I relate!
Sheesh. I still find myself getting furious just thinking about the same kind of crap you describe. What on earth was I thinking? I wasn’t thinking hard enough – that’s what.
Even more is coming back to me!
I remember making out with him before I had to leave for work in a different state for a month. He said he liked all of me and we made out. Mind you this was four weeks after having said that he didn’t want to sleep with me anymore, but really really enjoyed my cuddle and that I had a great body.
And while I was away, we were playing text ping pong where I’d be like ‘I want to have cuddle in bed with you’ or ‘I like you a lot’ and he’d text back ‘Yes, I’d like to be cuddling you too, it’s quite cold now’.
CONFUSING MUCH?!?!?!
No wonder I didn’t know my ass from my elbow when I got out.
agree: passive agressive bs is soooo annoying. I swear the next time someone does that I am just going to say, blank-faced, “It seems that you are not happy but you don’t have the respect or courage to say anything, so lets just not keep making plans”:)
dancingqueen:
I’m pinching that line, if you don’t mind. Passive-aggressive annoys the hell out of me as well.
These are great rules to live you. Thank you. I want to go through a list of people and get rid of them. Right now.
Wow, this reminds me of my exhusband. He put his boss and friends ahead of me and his family (parents,siblings). He went overboard kissing their behinds and would do things for them that he refused to do for me. One particular instance, us and the boss moved to another state for the company, we all had our furniture delivered on the same day. The ex went over and helped the boss who had a wife and two teenage children move things around and left me all by myself to do our moving. Now I know this is going to sound bad but I wanted to blow his head off and thankfully we didnt have any guns. I told him off, but to no avail and he basically just ignored me. When I left him two years later for more of the same treatment, he screamed like a wounded dog. Could not believe I would dare, couldnt go on with his life, his whole family was angry with me. He started dating a girl immediately that he met in a bar while out with his friends that he met two weeks before I left (his words). He married her and then she divorced him years later and I can guarantee for the same thing. Now ladies if you want to pick up a separated man, just think of this tool and dont do it.
Act is the key word! Excellent as usual Nat. Spot on!
I have found that when I communicate too well to people that ‘Fearless doesn’t mind’ they very quickly cross the line into thinking ‘Fearless doesn’t matter’ and then treat me accordingly (cue ex EUM!)
Fearless,
I hear you, and I’ve had to teach people that “don’t mind” and “like” are two different things when it comes to me. Most reasonable people don’t mind being cancelled on at the last minute if a reasonable explanation is given and the situation is unavoidable, or at least we’ll understand and get over it. However, I don’t think any of us like being cancelled on at the last minute for a lame excuse. It really speaks to the boundaries that we set in place, because if we have them firmly in place then others will know that they need to use their good judgment when dealing with us.
Wow.
This article was needed so badly today, Natalie!
It has actually hampered my recovery from a psychopathic man. He did this constantly and combined with my low self esteem, having been sexually, emotionally and spiritually abused by this man, and watching him kiss the asses of others, and NOT me AT ALL, was a deep ache and pain I’ve felt since the break up a year and a half ago. He has since remarried recently, and I found out he was trying to hook up just three months prior to THIS marriage, with someone else in another state. So is he REALLY treating others better? I think not and I dodged a bullet and thank God every single day that HE freed me from that piece of low life SHIAT!
I’ve been single a year and am doing a lot of trauma work in therapy. MY life is slowly coming around again. I’m a domestic violence advocate and have an FB page now for those who have been abused by disordered men and women and the enlightenments I’ve had from others stories has been profound, but I must say that if you’re not a therapist, you OUGHT to be (no, not trying to tell ya what to do), because you have enormously gifted insight that helps many. Including ME. It’s all a matter of learning to get in touch with ourselves, work on our shit and excavate!
Thanks again!
Natalie
It feels so good to see this situation written.
I have been in this situation for the last 5 years minimum.
My Ex. Eum constantly disappointed and I felt he got some enjoyment from it. We bought a house that needed work and after the 1 st few years he lost interest, leaving me to fund and complete the rest.
We argued about this, childcare , housework and that he never wanted to do anything with me but always be busy helping avnd going out with others. my issue was he never wanted to compromise or sort any of the problems out.
When w spoke he had this habit of avoiding answers, he would hear then change the subject or just avoid answering completely.
All this me really frustrated and angry
Another BRILLIANT post! I’m just going through this with yet another work friendship. I finally got ged up with someone who picked & chose when she would be friendly or indifferent to me depending on her mood, or would use me as a dumping ground for her work frustrations. It’s been about a month, and it feels GREAT no longer having that toxicity in my day.
The sad thing is, there seem to be so few people really worth befriending.
After being disappointed time and time again and making excuses for it, finally found the balls to send this AC the message that it’s not okay, you are not all that, you fuck with me, you pay the consequences – and that is through NC!
NML & Fellow BR Readers,
I found your site about 6 months ago when I began to realize that the reality of my 8 year relationship was that my partner was an emotionally and verbally abusive assclown/EU. It seems so obvious now, but it wasn’t then. It helped to know that I wasn’t alone and to finally see what was fantasy and what was reality. I read Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback Girl–fabulous! and am also reading your Fantasy/Dreamer book–already fabulous and I just started it. I’ve started learning about the importance of showing care, trust, love, and respect for me rather than thinking that crumbs are all I deserve or being so confused by Resets, Amending Terms & Agreements, Managing the Status Quo, Dripfeeding and dubious behavior.
My partner didn’t cheat or beat, and the great behavior and spin stories sometimes were enough to make me actually believe the crumbs were about to turn into a meal, or that she was even capable of cooking one…now I know better. It even got so far that mine agreed that we shared marriage vows (with some unusual conditions, of course like no one would know because she didn’t think people would accept our relationship due to an age difference or their problems with gay relationships) and then told me a few months later (after I’d called her on not coming through with some major agreements based on our change in relationship status) that she never really meant the marriage vow, but had said it and done it so I would stop badgering her about it. When I asked for clarification, the story changed to she had meant it and wanted to mean it, but then it just didn’t seem right for her to be in a relationship with anyone…she wants to be without a partner–that’s cool and I respect that, but that was a different story from what I heard the 8 years about how she wanted us to work but I kept doing X, Y, and Z, so she couldn’t really commit more fully.
Part of what really fooled me was that she was a respected minister who seemed to have really good relationships with others. But this post really hits the nail on the head…when I look at those friendships, there isn’t much substance or depth, and part of why we “worked” as long as we did is that she could be deep and intimate, provided it was only for a few days that we were together on the weekends and then not much during the week.
Although it feels good to share my story, what I really want to say is that I will always have gratitude for Baggage Reclaim for helping my soul heal. I know now that when my true partner comes, I will be ready. I know now how to spot fakes. And most importantly, I know that no matter what circumstances arise, my job is to live my life with trust, care, love, respect, and dignity for myself and others. Thank you, NML and blessing on all my fellow BR Readers.
blessings back onya.
that she never really meant the marriage vow, but had said it and done it so I would stop badgering her about it.
What? This is the ‘you-made-me-do-it’. She could have said something or just cut it off?!
Great post. These two describe the EU exactly:
- Expect you to say YES. Always. Even when they know that they’re disrespecting you.
- Expect you to be all adoring, accepting and forgiving no matter what they do so even when they eff up, they don’t exactly go out of their way to genuinely apologise and show remorse, often expecting you to ‘move on’ (read: hurry the eff up and get over it so that they can press the Reset Button).
The guy would be a total ass and then call me up expecting that we would both pretend everything was fine. When I was really feeling over it after a really bad phone call where he was really horrible, I didn’t talk to him for a while. He then called up acting like things were great, and wanted me to rush out that second to buy groceries and cook for him. Seriously, is there not a person on earth who will get tired of that bs eventually? You think they would learn their lessen when women finally walk away, but I guess these guys just prefer moving on to someone new rather than actually living/acting with some integrity and adjusting their MO.
It’s also good to remember, as you say, that even if they are nice to others on the surface, if they are treating you poorly then it’s in their character to do so. Thus, even if he showed you his good side, it wouldn’t last. I know this but it still bothers me sometimes. Even little things, like how the EU was all excited to look at pictures that a female friend sent him of her new place (in my presence). I moved a bit later and mentioned that I could send him a link of photos to the new place, and heard “why do I need to see it, I’m sure it has a roof, you’re not on the street” (or some such crap).
I swear Natalie must be spying on me because this is another post that rings so true in my life right now! I wrote a few days ago about my UM blowing off my birthday. Well, on my birthday he sent a pathetic cartoon text with a birthday cake. I’m sure he just forwarded it from someone else because he doesn’t know how to do that. It didn’t even have my name on it! LOL Anyway, I text back with just a “thanks.” I haven’t contacted him since.
Does he really think I should jump for joy to get a stupid text? He is out of town, but n0 phone call, no mailed card, nothing. He is a big chicken s**t. I know he is now thinking “I’ll wait a little longer until I think she isn’t mad anymore, or I’ll hold out and wait for her to contact me” because I normally would have. Ick.
I was thinking that maybe he just doesn’t get it . I’m always last on the list in other areas too, so I’m not just whining about a birthday. Among a long time of other things, he has been pretty much just breezing in and out of the door lately, keeps saying he loves me but never asks me anything about me or my life, and claims his “running cold” is all in my head. He always acts the injured party and makes me feel stupid because I’m being “too sensitive”
But now reading Natalie’s post, I feel better knowing that HE knows exactly why I’m upset and that HE is an a***ole for disappointing me yet again. He acts like he doesn’t get it, shakes his head like I’m overreacting, but now I know HE DOES GET IT! It’s my own fault I’ve let it get this bad, and I’m embarrassed to be such a doormat, even with him always saying “I didn’t do anything” when confronted with anything. Now, I have to figure out what I’m going to say or do when I know he will try and contact me. I know it is pointless, but why do I care what he thinks? Why can’t I just stop thinking I have to make him understand? I read Natalie’s piece on over explaining and it is helpful. I have to just stop caring if he is mad or sad or whatever.
I wrote a few days ago about my UM blowing off my birthday. Well, on my birthday he sent a pathetic cartoon text with a birthday cake. I’m sure he just forwarded it from someone else because he doesn’t know how to do that. It didn’t even have my name on it! LOL Anyway, I text back with just a “thanks.” I haven’t contacted him since.
OMG!! I think I shall weep! Are you sure that you’re not dating my guy? After he slept with me, withdrew (yes, a NO SEX/No Title/Not even physically present most of the time text-addict Mr. Unavailable!) and then told me I had a great body and liked my cuddling a lot and really really enjoyed my cuddles and wanted me around as ‘friend with cuddle benefits’, (deep breath), guess what I get on my birthday.
An effing TEXT.
*insert multiple expletives here*
BC,
If this guy couldn’t be bothered to call on your birthday and he has pulled a disappearing act waiting for you to “get over it”, I don’t think you owe him anything. If he does not respect you enough to keep in contact, why do you owe it to him to take his calls and offer him an explanation? If you think it would help *you* to stick to your decision by saying something to him, then I would keep it short. If/when he starts trying to contact you again, you can just tell him (or text, email, whatever) that you’re tired of his rude, disrespectful, crap treatment and you’re not doing this anymore. Over, done. Then stick with it and don’t respond to his attempts at contact.
BC,
I think silence is more effective.
If he didn’t even have the decency to call on your b-day, then why would you feel the need to explain anything.
BC,
I’m sorry, but you can’t make someone understand that doesn’t care, nor should you want to.
Please, move on from this situation, and block all forms of contact. This man is a complete waste of time, and you know that you deserve more than this crap!
Reread your post – one hundred time if necessary – it’s time to respect yourself.
BC sometimes they do think that the crumbs they are chucking your way are the golden loaves because the have limited capacity in relationships and they equate the ‘effort’ of a text with ‘effort’, whereas for us it is a display of lack of effort. Sometimes they are using a different yardstick based on their own idea of what constitutes ‘effort’ (or such the like).
But whether he ‘gets it’ or not is really beside the point, and I think mostly they ‘get it’ just fine – they don’t live in a box; they see the same as everyone else does how other men have both feet in their relationships and what other people’s working relationships look like! Whichever, it’s not your job to explain to some man-child what a decent adult relationship looks like; it’s not your job (and neither should you want it!) to explain to this man why sending a crumby text cartoon on your birthday is just. not. good. enough. What you deserve is a man who *already* knows this and/or is not a total piss taker.
The most important thing here is that YOU know it’s not even nearly good enough (and you seem to have recognised this, so that is a good start! Some of us have not woken up to this yet). Stop looking for verification from him that you are right. You *are right*. You *know* you are right. That should be enough for you. Stop trying to get him to agree with you! Stop trying to explain your way into changing him into a man who’s worth having, who knows how to respect a woman in a relationship. He is NOT that man. Accept it.
Don’t try to make him understand/explain to him ever again *why* his treatment is not nearly good enough. The man who needs that explained to him is the man who will never ‘get it’. It’s not good enough because it is not good enough – that’s why! So just tell him (if you have to tell him anything): “This disrespectful and neglectful attitude of yours is not good enough for me. So goodbye.”
Are you sure, we were not involved with the same guy LOL! No call on my birthday either. I used to give him the benefit of the doubt, but how can he not know? He is an effing doctor? He can’t be that effing stupid! When I didn’t wish him a happy new year, he was so “hurt”! Last contact, (text, his preferred mode), I told him how sick I was of never being asked how I am or what is going on with ME! That we are not friends but “casual acquaintances”. I am sure that “hurt’ him as well. Have not heard, not unusual, I am sure I will, like nothing happened. But something has happened, I have learned not to deal with his nonesense!
Thank you everyone. I will be reading this over and over to remind myself that I have a right to be mad/sad about this situation. I still haven’t heard from him. I know in his pea brain he justifies not calling on my birthday because I had gotten upset that he was going out of town and wouldn’t be there. I had told him I didn’t care about doing anything THAT DAY, but I thought he would have said something like “we will do something this weekend” or make a plan or SOMETHING! He just got annoyed but never did try and make a plan with me. But even if was annoyed, he still should have at least called me. I’m now trying to sit on my hands and not contact him in any way. I try to keep in my imagination the joy I would feel of him scratching his head and thinking “Gee, how come she has contacted me yet?” LOL I know it goes much deeper, its not about this birthday, its about not being cared for, being paid attention to, running hot and cold, etc. Thank you again for all the great thoughts.
I am happy to say that after my last AC, I started talking to this guy and he was future faking like crazy… I put the brakes on because of that and started to take things slower realizing he’s selling himself pretty hard. Eventually (because I wasn’t falling for it) he got tired and got real, when I finally saw him for who he was, it wasn’t a week before I told HIM to move on. Which honestly, he was a great looking man, very charming (in his good moments) and dangled a carrot of this romantic relationship in front of my face which the old me would have chased, completely disregarding all the red flags waving in my face. But this time… at the first sign of AC behavior, I sent him packing. And even though I have a long way to go still in the healing department, I take this as a very good sign.
It is NOT ok to be constantly managed down and dissappointed, told a bucket of lies, allow our heads to be effed with… all in the name of “a possibility.” Watch who they are… do NOT listen to what they say. And be patient ladies, because AC’s can’t play their game too long before they slip up and show you who they are and the minute you see it, even if it’s just a glimpse … RUN!!
Reality
I have to say it (again). Charm isn’t a plus, at best it’s neutral. From what I’ve observed – on here and in my own life, it’s almost a red flag.
If he’s charming you – why? It’s likely he’s trying to flatter you, impress you or seduce you. None of that means anything in terms of a relationship. The most charming ones are the ones who have. had. a. lot. of. practice. Enjoy it for what it is, but don’t conflate it with him having values compatible with yours. And when we’re figuring out if if it’s worth pursuing, don’t hold “charm” up, as many have done, as an overwhelming reason to stay.
Here’s the OED definition of “charmer”:
“a person with an attractive and engaging personality, typically who uses this to impress or manipulate others” . They’ll also use charm to gloss over their disappointing behaviour.
I’m glad you got shot of him.
besides charm, another red flag for me? guys who value “kindness”.
can we be “kind” to each other? can you be “kind” to me? even though i lied to you, and fast forwarded you, and wooed you on false pretenses, and i’m a 54-year-old man who has a favorite person, and that person is my *mother*, and i sleep in superman pajamas (i’m not kidding) and i’m a creepy lothario who uses women for housing and food and i think that if i tell you i have a huge c*ck that you’ll just fall over and abandon your judgment and boundaries and tolerate anything i want to take from/do to you? and then i’ll go stay with my ex-girlfriend? can we be kind?
can YOU be decent and honest? apparently not. so, “kind”? no!!
curb!
cc,
I never found out what he slept in because mom would not let him stay over…. ha ha ha, I can laugh now, still with a little bit of sadness. No sleepovers at 50?
p-
wow, that’s ridiculous, you poor thing. pretty extreme, even for a mama’s boy. (shudders)
Charming men are so over-rated. Grace is right “a person with an attractive and engaging personality, typically who uses this to impress or manipulate others” . They’ll also use charm to gloss over their disappointing behaviour.
My AC charmed the pants off me (literally), manipulated and boosted him self so much that I though I was cloud nine when I met him. But he couldn’t keep up the act for long it only lasted a matter of weeks before he showed signs of selfishness and started his pattern of ignoring me. A lot of woman describe a good man as being charming, good looking etc. But it really doesn’t mean a thing if its not genuine interest. Unfortunately some of them are so good at it that you really have to have your wits about you at all times.
cc, i’m 31 and my ex-AC, who hid his marriage from me, is 50! Lol! I HONESTLY thought that, because of his age, he would be honest, kind, loving, respectful, blah blah blah. But judging from the posts on BR, it appears that age DOES NOT bring sound judgment and temperance to all men.
Anyway, I am 52 days into cold turkey NC. He has been texting (effing crumbs) and when I feel tempted to reply (which happens after a stressful day at work), I just hearken back to when he first started getting shady with me. I had called to ask if he was okay (after not hearing from him all day) and he had SCREAMED at me to leave him alone. Hmmm….and I was very hurt at that instant….but pretty soon I had REASONED with myself that he was just going through tough times and that I really should just give him his space and that once he cooled down we would be back on track and everyone gets angry and on and on and on. Of course, the next day we were on like a camp fire and I just put that incident to the back of my mind.
So, what Natalie says is soooo true: When you have low self-worth and someone, anyone mistreats you, you actually BELIEVE that if you had/hadn’t done this, if you had said/hadn’t said that, etc. then the other person wouldn’t have treated you badly. I reasoned “If I hadn’t been stupid enough to care about my boyfriend being ok, then he wouldn’t have shouted at me. It’s my fault and I don’t blame him.” Seriously, it irks me to think how I let him get away with that flaming RED ALERT!
Aside from the fact that he is married, I could NEVER be with someone who screams at me because I don’t scream at others. One time was enough to give him the heave ho, but life experiences are meant to be life lessons. You shout at me and you’re out. That’s a boundary that I didn’t even know I had.
Thx, Natalie! Great post!
lisalise-
isn’t it wonderful to discover a boundary you didn’t even know you had? wow, your AC sounds like a class act, i’m glad you’re rid of him. NC can be hard, but you sound like you’re doing great.
and yes, one of the first thing i learned when i really started dating for the first time (in my 40s) is that one cannot assume anything about anyone, you must let someone show you who they are (and then i learned here that you HAVE to believe the reality of what they show you).
i had been making all these (ridiculous) assumptions: if the guy is 5-10 years older than i am then he’s a responsible grown-up, right? and if he says he values honesty and openness and kindness, then he practices those qualities, too, right? and if he even has (adult) kids, and seems to adore them, then he knows how to love, and can love a woman, right? so even if his heart seems like its in a box, all i have to do is wait it out, right?
wrong!! on all counts! if i knew then what i know now…
Lisalise and cc – so true. It’s amazing how we can be so blind to what they show us up front. The divorce lawyer was always talking about sex, almost obsessivly. On our 2nd date, I mentioned that I tend to bond with sex. We did fool around a little that night (minor). That apparently set him off and on our 3rd date he went on a verbal rant, about the “one who got away,” which is another twisted story and also about the bitter details of his divorce (7 yrs prior). For three hours. And about wanting to be honest with me, but nothing made sense. Oh yes, then mirandizing me (i.e. managing down my expectations — what he could and could not give me). I literally felt waterboarded and that I had done something wrong to bring out this behavior. He was acting crazy. And here I’m thinking –shouldn’t you just be having fun on date 3?
I kept saying to him that I shouldn’t have made the bonding comment. I felt traumatized by his behavior, then paralyzed. I just stormed off.
Two days later, I contacted him to see if he wanted to clear the air, which we did. But we only lasted another 2 dates before he started ranting again. Then putting me down (did I only wear long skirts; how I would have been happier if I had married and had kids; how I would make the ideal trophy wife).
Most healthy women would have given him the boot after date 3. To this day, I still have feelings for him and don’t know if it was our communication skills together and me not “calling him out” and therefore gaining respect, or him just showing me a side that no healthy woman would put up with.
I just wish I would have discovered BR and the support here a year ago (when we were dating). Armed with these tools, I wonder if I had handled the situation differently and stood up for myself and given it back — if it would have worked out. Or if I would have just walked away with NC and not looked back.
late bloomer-
please stop beating yourself up. seriously. its not you. think about how else he could have reacted to the “bonding” comment – which is practically a universal female trait, thanks to the love chemicals that multiply in our brains when we have sex:
- he could have taken it in and said nothing
- he could have been understanding and warm
- he could have shared with you how physical intimacy makes him feel emotionally (ha! fat chance)
notice how none of these other options include him ranting (!!) at you and judging and objectifying you about your clothes, your looks, your reproductive history. who the hell does he think he is? and this from a guy who is being mean to you and is still hung up on someone else??? is he kidding?
no, honey, you didn’t DO anything. you were being you and HE was being HIM. and he’s awful, awful, awful, disconnected, judgmental, out of control, cruel, unable to relate to others, etc.
if you keep reading BR this will all come clearer. but, right now, please STOP berating yourself. we all have every right to learn what we need to learn, we all make “mistakes”, but y’know what? they’re not really mistakes. they are learning experiences. truly. and you’ll be able to flow forward more easily if you stop with the self-criticism and the “i wish i had done this/that”.
be easy on you. he blindsided you and you didn’t know then. now you know better. so give yourself some love. its ok, really.
late bloomer, more-
i just reread your post again. you really, really need to see how admitting that you tend to bond through sex is such an innocuous, blameless statement of the obvious. its ludicrous to think for 1 second that such a throwaway comment could have set him off. he was always going to get set off, it didn’t matter what you might have said or done, he was on a permanent hair trigger just waiting to go off.
you need to see that this isn’t how he treats YOU, its how he treats WOMEN. he’s, sorry for not sweetening up the expletive, completely fucked up. not good for anyone. not good for you.
please stop attributing his behavior to you. please stop blaming yourself for how you handled him or how long you stayed with him.
again – now you know better. you need to love, *love*, LOVE yourself. and forgive yourself. don’t extend the trauma by treating yourself…exactly how he treated you. do you see? if you don’t deserve that treatment from him, you CERTAINLY don’t deserve it from yourself.
ok, i’m done now.
Um, no, Late Bloomer. There is no “right” way to respond to crazy.
Unilateral, free-form rants in your general vicinity *by someone you barely know* — not your responsibility. Didn’t cause it, can’t control it, can’t cure it.
I know it gets confusing because it feels personal because it occurs in a situation of possible increasing intimacy and because, by the second rant he wasn’t talking about exes but about *you*, how you dress, what you should have done with your life…
But it’s not personal. He has a mill, and anyone who goes on a date for him provides grist for the mill. He’ll pulverize anything in his path.
In a way it’s lucky that you saw the ranting bizarro side on the third date.
Because when this pattern occurs later in a relationship, it’s even easier for the woman to look to herself as the cause or solution, because by then the guy has the info to make it *seem to be about her or “us”.
In your case, it’s crystal clear. Guy has major issues. Issues have nothing to do with you. Issues that will torpedo anything you actually have to offer. And issues that show you he’s angry with women, angry about his past, angry in general, and just champing at the bit to be angry with you.
If I said or did the right thing it could have been wonderful! Nope. you would have become a reactive codependent, walking on eggshells, trying to anticipate and head off at the pass future rants. You’d be taking care of his feelings while he was trampling on yours. And every time you “failed” and he was an ass anyway, you could blame yourself for not trying harder.
Don’t blame yourself either for not dumping him on date 3. We all have this template of “what a healthy woman would never put up with.” Then we get to blame ourselves BOTH for not being able to make the relationship work AND for not getting out clean much earlier.
Guy’s an ass. You hoped he wasn’t and gave him a chance. Not your fault.
late bloomer -
ixnay said it better than i did, is absolutely 100% right.
cc and ixnay – you both said it perfectly. Thanks for the insight — it is very useful. Anything down the line would have set him off, and my comment was innocent , and just a part of me.
Again, very much appreciated.
Carly Simon sings it well in “Coming Around Again”: “so good on paper, so romantic, but so bewildering.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_xqI8NSlkA&feature=related
Grace,
I copied your response to Reality and printed it out. My exfiance was super-charming; I think because he was trying to make up for all his insecurities. I never saw the charm as a red flag. In fact I think it was the main thing that endeared me to him (which is pretty messed-up on my part). My coworkers always gushed about how lucky I was to have a guy bring me flowers and gifts all the time. Even after he lied to me multiple times and became verbally aggressive; all I choose to remember is how “charming” and “thoughtful” he was. And yes, he had loads of experience seducing tons of other women in this way. I was just egocentric enough to believe that I was “special”. Your response has helped me put to bed that final, nagging regret: But he was so charming….I think there’s even a verse in the Bible that says, “beauty is fleeting and charm is deceptive.” Yes, indeed.
Hey Laurie! Thanks for your help last time:)
Yes Grace you nailed it: charm comes from LOTS of practice.
Thanks for your help on that last post:)
Wow, more fantasticness – thanks for this.
Could someone confirm that my interpretation of this/life is correct? So, actually I haven’t managed to accumulate an entire adulthood’s worth of empirical evidence that I’m socially inept, very annoying, not very reasonable, strangely repellant and of less importance than anyone else. What I’ve accumulated is an entire adulthood’s worth of empirical proof that having rubbishy self-worth then that’ll be reflected in others’ treatment of you.
This is difficult to get my head round – I mean I’ve been coming to terms with the realisation for a long time but it’s so easy to slide back into the negative thought-patterns every time something goes wrong.
There is nothing wrong with me. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH ME!! Hurray! You know, I used to scour problem pages and personality quizzes and astrological charts and psychology textbooks to work out what exactly was setting me back on the evolutionary scale. And now I know. Nothing. Except that I assumed that there was SOMETHING wrong with me and possibly some emotional immaturity.
yogurt
yes that’s it. My six months of counselling ended on this rather ordinary note:
“If I think I’m all right then I AM all right”.
The reason why these ACs/EUM/are attractive to us is that – we have so much in common with them! There’s something wrong with us + they treat us as if there’s something wrong with us = BINGO!
And for the double whammy – If we can change them for the better, wouldn’t that be as good as if we had changed ourselves?
yyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy!!!! woo hoo!!!!!
(does the really, really, really happy dance)
Thank you for that, Grace, that really helps.
Yoghurt and Grace – very helpful! Thank you.
Very good description, Yogurt! Grace once said, it might have been to ellyb, ‘the only thing wrong with you is that you think there’s something wrong with you.’
For a long time I’d read that and my mind simply went aha!! You see, there IS something wrong with me! And so on.
Now I get it. I still have a pretty inground habit of looking at what’s wrong with me whenever I hit a patch of frustration, as though my default was “fix-Magnolia-and-this-problem-disappears” instead of the new default: “How can I resolve this problem?” It is SO much nicer being in my own skin when problem-solving, which we all must do every day, doesn’t involve an inventory of what we might fix about Magnolia.
Thanks for this, Yogurt. Inspirational.
“For a long time I’d read that and my mind simply went aha!! You see, there IS something wrong with me! And so on.”
Yea, this rings bells.
I’ve known for most of my twenties (I think) that I’ve been holding myself back with a lack of self-esteem, and I always saw it as a sort of genetic hereditary doohickey – so yeah, it WAS something that was wrong with me! While I saw it like that, I always looked to other people to build it up for me (mistake 1) and dodgy people at that (mistake 2).
It’s weird seeing it as a choice. More work, like, but more control as well.
no, you are normal in your needs and your expectations of life, you are are normal in that you are occasionally insecure, like all normal people, and they are abnormal in that the bulk of them have a sociopathic sense of security, even when they are being antisocial and cruel and they are abnormal in that, they are assholes in general.
Can I have that 90 bucks that you gave your therapist, now?;)
Oh! I want to add words to Grace’s great idea: “If I *make the healthy choice* to think that I am alright, then I am alright”.
I have a friend who is disappointing me lately and I’m not sure how to address it. It’s not the biggest deal or overly complicated so I feel a bit silly even writing about it, but this is the kind of thing that I would like to instinctively know how to handle better. Basically we live across the country from one another, different time zones, so it can be hard to reach one another. It’s harder for me to reach her b/c she shares a landline with roommates. She will email me asking when is a good day to call, but every single time for months now, she has failed to call on the day that she set up. If I call her, I can’t reach her. She does call eventually on another day, but due to the time difference I often need to alter my plans a bit to be available to talk to her, so when she doesn’t call when she says she will, it is irritating. I wasn’t so bothered the first few times, but now every time she emails me about picking a day it’s getting on my nerves b/c she never follows through. I’ve tried just telling her to call whenever it works for her (that way I’m not waiting around or annoyed when she doesn’t call)….I also tried emailing one time saying “I didn’t hear from you on X day, everything alright?” (hint hint) She told me that such and such came up and that she would call on X day….and then did not. Ahhh! She’s a good friend and she never used to be this unreliable. I think she’s sincere when she emails about wanting to talk and planning to call…..but then again she also never acknowledges or says anything about not calling when she said she would. I guess I’m wondering if by just letting it go I’m encouraging this behaviour….and I’m not sure how to address it directly without it seeming harsh.
a-
she may have been a good friend, but she’s treating you like an option. sorry, i know this must hurt.
suggestions:
1- do not ever change your plans to accommodate her call. if she calls at a time not previously agreed upon, do not answer. you’re busy, you have a life, you are not at her beck and … call.
2- the next time the two of you make plans to talk, say/write, “i’m really looking forward to catching up with you, i miss you. i gotta tell you, though, i’m getting frustrated with the number of times we’ve planned this, only to end up not talking because “something else came up”. i’ll reserve the time for this conversation, but i would ask you to only make this plan with me if you really want to talk. seriously, i value our friendship, but neither of us is obligated, and if the plans are just going to fall through again i’d just as soon not make them.”
realize that standing up for yourself this will likely push her off the fence one way or another. she may opt out. but honestly? while that would be painful? she’s not being a friend to you now, and you shouldn’t tolerate this treatment from ANYone. were the roles reversed, would she tolerate it from you? you can already see the small hole that has already formed at the bottom of your existence, that hole out of which your self-respect is flowing because of her treatment. close that hole. no one is worth that hole.
3- after that, if she makes the plan and calls, great. but if she doesn’t call…. sorry, honey, she’s showing you who she has become. don’t bother chasing after her.
A,
Be honest with her the same way you’re being honest with us here in BR. Just tell her how you feel without sounding defensive and see where it goes from there. I know exactly how you feel because I’ve been in your shoes. The one thing though is that some people let their lives lead them instead of the oppossite. We all have will power to do as we please, but some manage problems and time better than others. Just take a breather, tell her how you feel and play it by ear. If after that things still don’t feel right, go with your gut…it hardly ever fails. And then just chalk it up to yet another lesson learned. Hope this helps. =)
a,
I would say she is just not that into you and you do not owe her anything. I am thinking the same thing – would I be too harsh not to keep in touch when my friend never calls when she says she will? Looks like *your friend* is being harsh towards *you*, not the other way around. I know, it is difficult, and I am contemplating the same thing, either not responding any more or just telling her our friendship (or lack of) is not working.
I would just tell her that trying to schedule a phone date hasn’t been working out so just call me whenever and hopefully we’ll connect.
Thanks, everyone for the advice. I think I’ll take a few steps to begin with: 1) as suggested, not put myself out when she says she will call and go about my day as though she will not (b/c there is a good chance she will not; 2) not bother suggesting any days when she wants to pick a day to chat, and just stick with suggesting that she call when it works for her; 3) consider not being available if she promises to call one day and doesn’t call until a few days later. Maybe I’ve been too available–she knows if she doesn’t call on the scheduled day, I will still try to make time when she calls on a later day. Again, I feel silly even writing this–too much effort for something that should be simple, really. If she were a male friend I think I would feel a lot more comfortable just calling her on it directly, but my experience has been that it’s a lot harder to do so/doesn’t always go so well in female friendships.
Hey,
Honestly, if she keeps asking for what day is good to reschedule, just say “Look, we have scheduled this several times, and you have never followed through, so I don’t understand why you keep asking me, only to not do it. It makes no sense, right?No offense, but I am feeling a bit taken for granted. I have told you just to try and if I am home I am home. I tried to be respectful but you are not following through so I just don’t have the time to keep ‘rescheduling’ this. If you need to get in touch, just do the best that you can. Thanks and hope that I can help you out if we get this call organized!”
This has been my life for the past year. He will only see me if he doesn’t have a better offer. Lately, he’s been breaking dates because a better offer came along in the interim. Better than me includes seeing one of his other girlfriends, going to a singles dance, going on a blind date, going on a date…..anything. It’s up to me to make the choice whether or not to put up with it. I am free to dump him at any time. But so far I haven’t. The other men haven’t stacked up. What do you do when this is the best you have?
Betty, you are asking what do you do when this is the best you have… you have nothing. Let him go and you will be free to have everything! (:
@Betty! @Betty! Please – WAKE UP!
‘What do you do when this is the best you have?’
Easy.
1) Read BR – back issues especially! – and realise that instead of him being ‘the best you have’, he can in fact be identified by his plumage and mating habits as the Greater Spotted Assclown.
2) You stop the madness, flush him, and go No Contact with him, preferably for the rest of your life.
3) You be single – for a while at least – and work instead on building up your self-esteem and having a happy and fulfilled life with friends, relatives, dogs, cats, work buddies, lunches, walks, movies. Do fun stuff. Get your life back and start being kind to you again.
4) You will find to your great surprise that your life is suddenly largely stress-free, and that things look quite different. Could this be – happiness?
I got out of my first assclown relationship when I was finally able to imagine a future without him. Try this – it worked for me.
betty-
how can other men not stack up to a person who treats you like absolute crap? how did this guy, with this behavior, end up on any kind of pedestal? is the pedestal made of crap?
please, take brown _eyes’ and ethelreda’s advice – you really have nothing in this guy. you shouldn’t be tolerating this, much less from a guy who breaks plans with you to see (suppresses scream) other. women? no!
read BR. believe in yourself. and him? to the curb!
Easy.
FLUSH!!
Betty,
He is not the best you have, he is the worst. Get real and ask yourself: what is he giving you? My guess would be: he´s giving you low self esteem. He´s giving you stress. He´s giving you hours of fretting and obsessing. He´s probably or soon giving you health problems because of all the stress (and perhaps even a bad complexion? Hair falling out? Weight problems?)
And worst of all, he´s in the way of any nice, caring guy who would be happy to spend time with you if you just valued yourself and started to behave accordingly (but this takes time, don´t worry if you´ll be single for a while).
If that’s the best you have, I can’t imagine what’s the worst!!! Girl…move on from that! You’re only hurting yourselfin the process. One thing I realized after my last failed relationship when he did the EXACT same thing you’re saying and the one previous to that as well is that “I’d rather be miserable and alone than miserable with somebody”. You can do sooo much better and I highly doubt that is the best you’ev had! I don’t know you personally, but I can tell that self esteem is an issue for you and if you try to work on that, things will start to get a lot clearer (trust me…I’ve been there). As for men, yes I have had crappy relationships, but I am also friends to a ton of guys (usually those end up being my best friends) and seeing how they are with their girlfriend’s or wives, gives me hope to eventually meet a good man, way better than those I’ve already had. Just tell yourself, there’s always better out there, you just have to give YOURSELF a chance, not him! =)
Betty,
You seem to not have had a lot of experience with men, perhaps you are young still, this guy sounds pretty bad, yet he keeps you hooked. Does he treat you like someone from your past, mom, dad, sibling, cousin? You appear to be attracted to be being treated badly, until you can work on that, you may remain hooked. Listen to all the great advice from the others. Counseling sounds good about now too. Good luck!
I kicked my AC out of my house in January after catching him cheating on me. I had put him on a pedestal and treated him like a king. He is still wailing about his clothes being shoved in garbage bags (I laugh each time he raises this). He just couldn’t believe that I, who worshipped the ground he walked on could actually kick him out. He’s been apologising only to disappoint me again and I officially ended our relationship last Monday, blacklisted his number so he can’t call (the AC couldn’t even respect my request for NC, which I myself struggled with for a while as I would tell him how pissed off I am with him whenever I thought about what he’s done, but im getting stronger by the day). He turns around and sends me bible verses via email as he’s now apparently born again, which I applaud him for if he is sincere about it and not doing it to manipulate me again. I believe he was very comfortable and confident in disappointing me and when I kicked him out he was shocked out of his witts as he never thought I could do that. There is no way ever that I would allow anyone to feel it’s ok to disappoint me no matter how much I love them and it hurts to break up with him, my self-esteem is quite intact. He thought my self-esteem was low just because I loved him. I realised that his apologies weren’t sincere, he was just trying to get me to accept that the relationship will happen on his terms i.e. if we work things out it will be on his terms or if it ends he will make that decision and I refused to allow this to happen, “I didn’t want things to end like this between us” How the hell did you want them to end, by you being the one to end them? Hell to the NO!!! I ain’t giving NOBODY power they don’t deserve.
My AC’s very good at his job and he thought because of this he can control me, I refuse to be controlled and I refuse to let anyone feel that it’s ok to disappoint me. He had the guts to tell me that he will stay with the girl I caught him cheating with because she attempted to commit suicide when he tried to break up with her before. Guess what happened, she dumped him 3 days after I kicked him out to save her main relationship (she was playing my AC, she’s pregnant with her other boyfriend’s child and they are apparently very happy, they got engaged), so he’s sitting with a huge egg on his face!!!! He’s a huge schmuck and he can go…
Thembi,
Toooooooooooo Much drama!!!!!
Have you blocked this guy?
yes Allison I have blocked him and he’s now trying to contact me through his cousin with whom I became friends , so I’ve gone NC on her as well. The NC’s really working for me and it’s becoming easier by the day.
NC can be a beautiful thing. No fuss no muss just happily go about your day!
My husband’s favorite saying when I’m disappointed in him is, “Expect nothing, and you’ll never be disappointed.” For years, I would hear this pithy admonition and try to do away with my wants and expectations. Sublimation, repression, prayer…nothing ever quite worked. Now, over a decade in, I hear his favorite saying and wonder, “Aren’t there some basic things that a wife SHOULD expect from a partner?” Things that she should also rightly feel disappointed for not receiving? Sigh.
Absolutely right rosenfire! Desires and expectations are a validation of our inherent nature which is to LIVE! No expectations means denial of Life and the desire to live. Don’t let anyone fool you with this theory that if you don’t have expectations you will be happy. Crapshit. We are born, we have desires. Everything we learnt from babyhood came from that desire or expectation or whatever we choose to call it. It is our most basic natural instinct: to WANT to LIVE!! Have expectations, draw boundaries, and live consciously to respect and keep those expectations sacrosanct. If no one walks with you, then walk alone. But as you can see here, there are many already walking WITH you, even though we may not all be physically next to you. You are on the right path, and bless you!!
“Expect nothing, and you’ll never be disappointed.”
I said exactly this to myself (!!WTF) a thousand times when I was “with” the ex EUM. He disappointed me so many times and I figured that if if ‘got real’ with ‘the situation’ by expecting nothing from him then I could avoid the distress of the constant disappointment. Sheesh. (I now think that was a pattern of thinking I had learned from childhood). It doesn’t work (and it shouldn’t work). The only way to avoid unremitting disappointment in these people is to flush them out of your life (I didn’t want to do that as I was desperately clinging to my rejection avoidance. Pah. I was feeling rejected by him every day of my life anyway! EUMs are disappointment personified!
Mine even tried to manipulate me into believing that ‘disappointment’ was a necessary and good emotion to experience and learn to deal with in life – by accepting his crap treatment I could also become a better person! Woohoo! What a great life-enhancing offer – how could I resist!
Ahaha, what an ass! The things that these guys come up with….
I did a variation of this too, thinking to myself “it’s not like I even expect that much!” And now….wait a minute, why can’t I have expectations of the person who I’m with?
Another flawed thought process I had, right in the beginning, when I was obviously picking up on the fact that this guy was a user (yes, I had picked up on it, since I had made a pro/con list which included “may be a user” on it!). I thought that this may give me an opportunity to become a more generous person, thinking of how I had been in a relationship with someone who was more thoughtful and generous than I was and that would be a good way in which to better myself. Why I thought it would be a good idea to ‘work on this’ with someone who was only interested in taking all he could and giving nothing? Not so sure.
ewww, that is creepy and twisted; so glad he is an ex:)
You’d be surprised at how often that “creepy and twisted” mentality is used on women in religious circles…with our being told that our husbands are the chisel that God uses to hammer us into diamonds. Yep.
Yes, just look at this: http://www.southheightsbaptist.com/mp3/CliffPalmer/7BasicNeeds_Husband.pdf
Ummm…I had to stop reading. My heart started racing, my skin got hot, my stomach got queasy…I can’t hardly type this. I’ve heard so many of those statements my entire life, believed them, lived them, hated myself for not embracing them. Crying now…I’ve never seen them actually WRITTEN DOWN like that…seems so clearly diabolical when read like that…God, help me.
Ain’t that the truth. I’ve always believed that men were designed to be the head of the household, but I heard a wise woman say that she thinks of her husband as the head but she is the neck, and the head can go nowhere without the neck guiding it LOL. I loved it! All of the truly godly men that I’ve ever known are loving and supportive partners who are truly looking out for the best interests of their spouses, not male chauvinists like some are told to be. But even with that said, I’ve never believed that one of us had more influence over the other in the relationship, neither one of us will ever hold a chisel. We’re supposed to compliment one another and help strengthen the other partner. I think women who actually read and interpret the bible for themselves will be able to rise above and know what God truly wants for them.
Natalie: Thank you so much for this post.
When your own family doesn’t value you or treat you well it is so hard to have self-esteem or to like yourself.
And that pattern of trying trying trying to get them to love you sets you up to repeat the same pattern of trying to win acceptance and love from unavailable/uncaring men.
Thank you for this supportive post, and for pointing out that poor treatment by family, or friends, or men, is equally unacceptable.
Natalie, I would love to have all your posts collected in a book, I print out many to keep but it would be wonderful if you would bind and publish them. They have really gotten me through some dark days and many of them I read over and over. Thank you.
I like what you said about the fact that when you come from a family that doesn’t treat you well, it’s hard to assert yourself with others and expect them to behave respectfully and kindly to you.
I have a great relationship with my family now, but when I was a child the thing that created the most confusion and pain was being the recipient of contempt, disdain, withdrawal of affection and attention, verbal and emotional abuse, and then being told ” but we love you and only want the best for you”.
It’s no wonder I’ve spent most of my adult life chasing after men who treated me the same way. I was told this was acceptable from someone who “loved” me, that I had no right to think otherwise.
Hmm, that really gave me food for thought – after giving my never delivering man the heaveho for about the 7th time (I always know he will take me back if I withdraw my very reasonable complaint…) I am yet again starting to want him back… I guess the thing is that I meet him after breaking up with my controlling and critical or very flattering ex-husband and I really needed validation… And it was quite obivous from the start that I not only needed validation but would put up with quite a bit. The thing is that his values were so different from mine that there was no way I should have kept seeing him but I felt like I needed his flattering attention so instead of keeping my self respect I chose to change my expectations or to believe that over time I could change him. The horrible thing is that I am not sure that he would have been interested in me at all if I wasn’t attractive – I think if he knew my values and that I would have stuck to them he would have departed after about 3-4 months of an ego boost for him. I just focusing on what I liked about him so leaving the situation didn’t seem like an option – plus I made up my mind very early on that he was a nice guy and didn’t want to reassess that opinion even when it started to become obivous that that was only on the surface. The thing is the disappointments got to my self esteem – and I have come to realise that I can be attracted to and even often enjoy the company of men who are evasive, don’t disclose other women, don’t commit and play games – but the emotional pain of it is terrible. In the future I am planning on sticking to my values and to walk away when I can’t trust a man. Or let him walk away when he finds out that I won’t accept his behaviour – I’d rather the initial rejection and missing them to be made to feel ‘less than’.
I came to this realisation recently too Lumos. The things that trigger desire and attraction are the same things that bring ambiguity, disappointment and pain. So you have to learn to be attracted by positive qualities and avoid the usual patterns. It is a huge change in thinking and behaving but I guess recognising it is a great step forward.
My sister’s convoluted reason for treating me badly is, “you have always been there for me, so you always have to be there for me.” My parents adopted her as an infant and so she was my sister when I was born (she’s one year older than I am). But, ever since we were teenagers, she has been looking for her birth family through her bf and friends. She was always gone, spending her time and money on her friends, her boyfriend and his family. She would do anything for them and then expect me to make it up to her when they took advantage of her. I was so naive; I just decided that if I supported and loved her unconditionally, she would wake up one day with respect for me. I wasn’t adopted, so I can’t understand the deep feeling of abandonment she felt. There was no way I could make it up to her. I’m not the one who left. But, I was very young and took it all personally.
She found her birth family about 15 years ago and spends most of her energy on them. Both of my parents have passed away at this point. She wants me to join her birth family, and cater to them the way she does, but I am done with the games. We love each other and will always be sisters, but I have been working really hard on setting up boundaries. My time and money is better spent on people who don’t expect me to be their doormat.
I know that I keep repeating this pattern from my family by dating EUMs. I have a thing for men who “I can prove myself!!” to… thanks for the post.
Your last paragraph couldn’t be more right Nat sometimes the greatest disappointment comes from ourselves. I know for myself there have been times when I’ve been my own worst enemy, the heart saying one thing my mind another. I found when I listen to my heart it doesn’t always have my best interest at heart but that nagging little voice in the back of my mind always does.
hah! great post especially since I’ve been through that with a really really flakey friend, I’ve known him since college and he always kept contact even though we didn’t really hang out too much until I started dating a friend of his. Well that relationship ended so understandably its awkward.
So my friend always made plans or saying this and that and always end up not being able to make it and have some long half ass excuse or doesn’t even bother telling me he couldn’t make it. Yet he would still pop up and try to act like his interested in my life… I don’t mind friends drifting apart but I hate it when they just pop up in your life and act like they could be chummy chummy after flaking on you so many times.
I would find out he would have no problem going to other events with more “desirable” friends or often people who had connections. So I always thought it was bull***. It really irritated me when he kept bugging me to have dinner because he felt so bad for ditching me, he kept bugging till I said yes and guess what … when the day came he never even had the audacity to say he couldn’t make it. Luckily at that point I didn’t care anymore and had fun that night with other friends , the next day he sent me a long text message with some half ass excuse and I never bothered replying.
He got hold of a friend of mines because he wanted to apologize. He still tries to make contact either through random texts or on aim. I haven’t heard from him in months so I thought he forgot about me then bam all of a sudden his back trying to get all chummy…….
I don’t understand why people act that way, I wouldn’t be hurt if someone declines to go to an event with me because at least they were honest I just hate the dilly dallying around. Besides I realized it was a waste of time to be hung up on those situations and its best to brush them off or flush them XP
There are some excellent points here. One that spoke to me: “If someone believes that you’re so enamoured with them that you won’t leave, create conflict or consequences, or at least tell them to jog on (and mean it) when they try to push the boundaries, not only will they relax, but they just won’t value you enough to genuinely fear the loss of you.”
—————-
Now that I think of it, this has happened with several guys. I always thought it was a sign of a healthy relationship to relax in to it, be available, act like I was “with” them and there for them. But I’ve been guilty of assuming too much/believing too much too soon, thinking they are “it” (pedestal). I am so there for them that if they have an ass side it is sure to emerge once they see this. I now totally agree – anyone should fear the loss of the other if they behave badly, e.g., not take for granted, and they should not have the luxury of feeling that you’re so there from them until they show OVER TIME that they’ve earned that level of trust and commitment.
That leads right into the second point that really spoke to me: “All that glitters isn’t gold and when you take them off their pedestal, you’ll see that due to their surface action, they have very little, if any, genuinely intimate, healthy substantial relationships.” Bingo, with my last guy. He had glitter all over a disingenuous package. I am so grateful for all of the insights you post here, NML. I learn a lot, including things I need to work on so one day – even if when I’m 80 LOL – I get it right.
or have missed the memo that informed you of what you’ve done to piss them off – LOL this is sooo funny but TRUE. Ive just experienced similar from a so called friend and recognise all the behaviours. theyre not worth investing in as friends is a great explanation. Thanks Natalie
You know why your blog is such a hit Nat? You validate everything that we felt. I have spoken to family, friends about these issues — and kept hearing indirectly — ‘ put up with it, these are not big issues, I am so glad to know it is happening to you, oh you poor thing but surely these can’t be reasons for wanting a divorce’. You validate it. I think you do realise what an enormously important service you are doing for us. You articulate it so well, that right now I have tears in my eyes. Thank you. Much as I learnt through baby steps on how to deal with my pain before I came to your website, discovering your website was and is a fulfilling experience. God bless you, and Keep Going!!
@Urfab, thanks for your comment…I’ve been told I have no scriptural reasons for divorce…from my mother…which is hard for me to take…it’s a different version of the same “expect nothing…” theory. She told me that the way I’ve been treated and the fundamental differences b/n me and him are reason enough to never *marry* a man, but not reason enough to divorce him once you’ve already committed to him, had children, etc. She didn’t say this, but it was like she said, “You were worth more when you were single. Now, you just have to live this way forever, no matter how much it hurts.” Thank you again for your comment; your words (and the ones you wrote here to Nat) meant a lot to me.
” – Claiming that the reason why they treat you as they do is because, for instance, you’re the ‘strong’ one in the family or don’t need as much as the others, or some other weird reason to justify why they treat you differently.”
I just read the above paragraph and had a light bulb moment: that is SO disrespectful for a person to think that he/she can treat another person like a mule. “Oh, you’re strong… you can take/grapple with/handle it.” How disrespectful. I wonder how often the slave masters said that to their slaves.
Yet another reason to have strong boundaries & sense of positive self-esteem. Overall great post.
I had someone once say to me “but no matter what I do I would not be able to hurt you”. So, you’ve given yourself permission to treat me however you like then? Very messed up.
BC, Don’t say anything to him – except *ADIOS* then flush! Life’s challenging enough without dickwads messing up the scenery…
My unavailable man I was involved with, a relationship which lasted quite a few years, left the area over a year ago. I told him not to contact me any more he left without saying goodbye. This was after many lies he told me again and again of wanting to be with me because of his deep love etc, he was so believable. He let me down always of course. I was amazed when he contacted me a couple of months ago with the same lies. How much he missed me and how unhappy he was. He called me a few times from a payphone and has not called since. It really upset me to hear all the lies again because I do/did have deep feelings for this man. I have now changed both my phone numbers and feel so much better for it. I know he is too much of a coward to write to me as that would be evidence he has contacted me. I could not understand how someone could behave like this unless mentally ill of course!! I have now met another man who seems decent and is a good friend, early days, taking it slowly. I feel so much better in my self.
Astonished yet again by the brilliance of BR – wow.
“When they can keep disappointing, it’s because they’re being believed in and given another chance, when really they should be getting the heave ho or at the very least, an increase in boundary security.”
Too right. My relationshit with my AC was a 10+ year rollercoaster of future fake-disappoint/ future fake-disappoint/future fake-disappoint/future fake- disappoint future fake- disappoint/future fake- disappoint…. repeat to fade, with a bit of charm thrown in occasionally to those who played their cards right (until I finally saw the light and left after the ultimate future-fake/let-down of pulling out of our wedding at the 11th hour).
As one of my friends memorably said: “The trouble with x is that he has 64 personalities and I only like one of them!” In other words, more faces than the town clock tower (to misquote Fearless).
How do you know this stuff Natalie?! Just amazing x
Nat…once again you are a genius! I was just going through a little crisis of my own. It turns out that my college roommate is getting married this summer and I can honestly say she hasn’t been the best friend to have. Throughout college she always put her boyfriends first, she used to have me go quiet if she was talking to one of them on the phone because he wanted all her attention, she even got pissed at me once because one of her boyfriend’s at the time used to talk and joke around with me more than with her (I understand she might have been jealous, but I was never interested in him and made it clear from the start…we just had a lot in common and she never got any of the jokes we made). The last time we were really “friends” was when I was severely depressed and out of the hospital, she had the nerve to call me after a month of no contact and then told me to snap out of my depression. She then called my sister and said the same thing. Since then I feel as if I have forgiven her, but not really forgotten what she has done and how she has not been there for me. Well, she expects me to go to her wedding and I have class on that day. Mind you I’m starting my Masters program and I am paying a ton of tuition money for this. My mom forbade me to go to her wedding because she knows the whole story and was devastated at the way people were treating me when I was sick, I understand her. And in all honesty, I don’t even want to go either. She was here in New Year’s eve the same year I was sick and didn’t even apologize for what she did and said or called, but posted all her pictures in FB. I have made up my mind not to go to her wedding and mingle with her friends who I have no interest or relationship with. Or even her family who I always felt super uncomfortable around with. For the first time, I want to focus on me and me alone. And this post has just reminded me that I really don’t have to stoop to anyone’s level. As long as I stick to my principles, and true to myself and love me…then all else will fall into place.
Thanks again Nat! =)
Karina
Good for you, sounds like you did a lot of soul searching before you made that final decision.
I had a “friend” who from the beginning needed to be the centre of the universe and would create drama out of every situation. I always supported her. She would turn on and off me when a new man/friend came into our circle. I did not learn. Took the untimely death of my sister before I finally got it. The “friend” sent me an email 4 months after my sister died to tell me that “I know that you and your family are having a hard time but I need my friends to be close”. This was then followed up by a heart to heart (her words) where she felt that my grieving had gone on too long. My sister had only pass three years at that time and had been in my life for 33yrs. I don’t need that friend so flush!.
Karina be well. It is sad to let go of someone that you loved, trusted and cared about. By hey time to do you.
Sophia,
I can’t imagine anyone being that cold hearted, but I shouldn’t be surprised. So sorry abotu your sister’s passing. I have a sister and she is my best friend, so losing her would be like losing half of me. We’re always together even though she’s married. Her husband even jokes about that and doesn’t mind at all. I’m glad she’s not in your life anymore as you really don’t need someone like that lurking around waiting to get attention when she demands so.
Time for us ladies to really focus on us!
Karina wise decision: you don’t want to be there, and, from a karmic perspective, would you want someone you treated badly to show up to your wedding out of obligation? You know, you need to just let that friendship go….if you feel like it, write her a nice card, wishing her happiness for her wedding and congratulate her, and tell her that you are sorry but you are not available. She will get mad, probably throw a fit, and then you can just say the truth; that you don’t feel that you are friends and that life is too short for either of you to waste each others time:) Go enjoy your Masters!
I agree. If you’re going to do something, do it with your whole heart and not out of insincere obligation. You’ll be happier for it in the end. But to be honest, it doesn’t matter why you don’t want to go. One of the joys of adulthood is not having to answer to other people in most situations. You could simply feel like staying home and washing your hair, it really doesn’t matter because it is your time and you can do with it what you wish. Time is valuable, and every second of it that goes wasted on something that you don’t want to do anyways will forever be lost.
But you obviously were a good friend to her if even after all is said and done, you were still willing to consider going. Good for you for putting yourself first, and good luck with your masters program!
Thank you ladies. I just added a similar comment to Nat’s recent post because I ended up seeing my “friend’s” emgagement pics up on FB…it really reaffirmed my position of not going and I am really looking forward to my Masters. Thanks again! =)
Hi Natalie
What a great post. I am chuckling as I write this because for the first time I have stepped back and watched the play (complete with popcorn). The film title I have given his performance is “when slick became sloppy”.
Having known the work colleauge for 5 years, very charming when interested in me and this would wane when a new light emerged then back to me to see if I would step up and put out. Instead I would backed away (I had been doing a lot of growth work prior to meeting him so knew I was being tested) as these behaviours unsettled me and left me wondering what I had done wrong. As a result I never got too close because of these behaviours. Instead I chose to keep it light.
A recent illness (him now on the mend) resulting in a whole clutch of women giving him attention. He could now pick, choose and refuse. From that new clutch comes his current GF.
He tried to start up that same olde game again with me, this time I was well prepared and have now withdrawn totally. At work I see that he is unsettled by my new behaviours so has resorted to the odd critical comment in the hope that he will find allies. There have been none. I am equally popular. Again I am choosing to keep it light and chuckle to myself as I skip away from the BS.
Note to self – buy more popcorn.
As many of the others here, I had this sort of relationship with my husband (ex now) of 37 years. I can’t believe that I put up with it for that long even after he divorced me for his long time girlfriend. Because we have children together I still see him and it has developed into dinner at my place a few nights a week. He asked me recently if I thought he was taking advantge of me. I said no because I now know that it all about you, however I do feel you take me for granted, and someday I won’t be here for you.
I thought I would always love the man but now am having serious second thoughts. We are both too old at this point to start over and have settled into a truce for companionship….not perfect but I no longer have expectations of more from him.
mental note to self: googling xAC, who let me down over & over again, (but who was also once the love of my life & hence 1 mth now into strict NC), only to find out he’s happy with the new ‘love of his life without whom he would be lost’ (that would be the OW he was, unbeknownst to me, in a r.ship all along whilst in a r’ship w ME!) is not a good idea. Oh well. He’s her problem now & that at least is a relief!
(
I actually feel a bit angry right now
, because he always mentioned that he’s so glad that I’m not like other girls;acting demanding and psycho, and telling me that he doesn’t want a bad girlfriend..So I thought that I’d rather keep my mouth shut because he might think that I was demanding if I expressed my concerns. However when I started speaking up and telling him that I wasn’t happy with the fact that he would go out of his way for his friends and not for me and that I wasn’t a priority after 3 and a half years, he became so rude and started telling me to shutup and that I should be more understanding. He would always ignore me whenever we had an argument and his reasoning behind it, was that the argument would be over sooner once I calmed down and then he’d carry on being normal as if nothing happened without having dealt with the issue. It used to piss me off so much whenever he did that. He always just said sorry and I love you, expecting things to be okay after that. He never used to consider me, he would always put others before me and I let him know all of this and all he had to say was ” oh please, you’re just f*cking bored with yourself and now you’re looking for things to go on about”…I’m actually shaking my head right now and thinking about how I’d like nothing more than to punch him the face right now…
I always told him that I was sick of being the understanding girlfriend and that I was tired of being taken for granted, but it went in the one ear and fell out of that same ear immediately. The only time he’d act all nice was when I cried and when I had enough…He would tell me that he doesn’t want me to not feel important and he never wants to see me cry like that again and that he was sorry, but after that he’d do it again and I that’s when realised that he’s never going to change and that he’s learnt absolutely nothing!! It was like he was so worried about what he’s friends would think of him if he didn’t spend time with them or do stuff for them. He actually told me that, he thinks that its super unhealthy to spend time with your girlfriend and neglect your friends, I wasn’t asking him to be with me only, there has to be a balance obviously, but my concern was that he treated them better than he treated me, if it wasn’t ok with them it wasn’t ok with him. I never felt comfortable asking him to do anything…
“Breaking it off with you to go back to the same person and then coming back to you when it goes tits up. Or just ditching you every time a better offer comes up.”
This is exactly what the AC did last summer – Aimee – I miss you, I love you, I effed up. I thank my lucky stars that I was aware enough & had enough self-esteem to say – “So, are you ready to settle for Aimee now? He said it’s not settling – AND I said oh I know that, but you don’t. This week you want me back, next week you’ll want K****, and the next you’ll you want M****. Just leave me alone”. YEAH – I DID IT!!
But now tring to deal with family members and taking care of my aging father…….
“Claiming that the reason why they treat you as they do is because, for instance, you’re the ‘strong’ one in the family or don’t need as much as the others, or some other weird reason to justify why they treat you differently.”
This is my brothers to a tee – since I sold my business four years ago, not married, no children, they think I can do EVERYTHING, I mean everything for my father who broke his hip in Dec and has 2 surgeries – third one in a few weeks. (His “care” has been since my mom died 4 yrs ago)
Natalie – how do I set boundaries to try and get my brothers to HELP without my father suffering the consequences if I just walk away or sit back and SEE if the “brothers” show up? I am exhausted!!! They only want to help when it involves money (I mean in their advantage – 1 brother is EU, there other a TOTAL A**CLOWN)
Aimee
I feel for you. When my mom had to go into a nursing home I had a nervous breakdown trying to organise it all. But my brothers and sister stepped up.
Are there any tasks you can delegate – such as taking him to the hospital for an appointment? Asking them to “help more” may be too woolly.
Can you approach their wives?
Are there any support groups for carers in your area? They can offer practical assistance.
If you or he belong to a church, squawk for help.
@ Grace
Thanks for the suggestions. My problem is the brothers say they help and then don’t. ie Asked one of them to research Life Alert 6 weeks ago – I called last week to see why this never got done and he starts screaming at me – they say yes when they really mean no. It stinks because I really do want to delegate and they make everything harder. I feel as if I am having a nervous breakdown, and I so angry and resentful because I just wanted to take one year off after selling my business and been off for 4 1/2 years. I would just LOVE to go to work like my brothers and not have to deal with it all – and to boot the AC (pain patient that I cared for) pulled all this crap during the last 4 –ughhhh long sighhhhhhhhhh
good lord. it gets worse here. so i check my emails to reaffirm my NC w xAC (I kept one of his where he spewed forth his venom ie how he felt after I exposed his multiple infidelities to the OW he was with whilst w me – xcept I was her OW as he’d been w her all along but I didnt know it! Plus the one where I made my final NC clear) only to find others in my account. Some documented my anger to him after him treating me like shit & others w me trying to ‘ play it cool’ after same. How did I ever let this xAC slip under my radar?? Well, one email was very telling. It documented me talking abt wanting to sell my home due to financial probs caused by ill health. It seems I was hoping xAC might be my next step in life to help me solve my own life probs. (bear in mind I didnt know abt the OW or a whole range of other dodgy stuff at tht point & he was the love of my life frm 17 yrs prior). Here I sit, in a FAR worse position than wen he first reappeared wondering how I could have been so damned stupid. Yeah yeah. He future faked alright. Plus drip fed abt his multiple dysfunctional issues. But still. What the hell was I thinking? I feel a mixture of sadness, grief, loss & anger all at the same time. And till now, I felt I was doing so well. Im devestated. Even though I know she got what amounts to a booby prize which will cause her no end of pain (at least I think unless he suddenly went BACK to rehab – highly doubtful), but still. All this could have been prevented if I’d been more wise. I feel like such a fool & worse, my life is in absolute tatters as a result. Hugs welcome. This is my first real deep down in my gut low point. But NC it shall stay b.cuz I need his shit like a hole in the effin head. He’s done more than enough damage already
((
Hi Teachable,
First…giant hugs. Wow! I can’t tell who is the OW to the OW to the OW. Is all I can figure out is there are too many W’s and the scum bucket is treating everyone with disrespect and disappointing all the W’s. At least you’ve discovered BR and can opt out of this dude’s drama. I’m betting the other OW’s may discover BR soon.
Although I think I was only one OW (who knows with cheaters), I felt just like you when the blinders came off. I felt like a fool, wondering how I could have been so damned stupid and what the hell was I thinking. And then the feelings of sadness, anger, and loss washed over me too. I know it’s difficult to resist telling him all about himself and how many times he’s disappointed you (understatement). I got to the deep down in my gut low point too. Once I could maintain NC and resist the urge to tell him, yet once again, how he disappointed me, I had to deal with how I disappointed me. I don’t mean to add insult to injury and my comment may only apply to my situation, not yours so disregard if it doesn’t apply. Your comment applied to me: “But NC it shall stay b.cuz I need his shit like a hole in the effin head. He’s done more than enough damage already.” You are wise to this AC’s disguise now. Don’t worry about what she “got”. You actually know what she got, disappointment and pain. You have an opportunity for a healthy relationship based on honesty, respect, and love. Congratulations. (I’m writing to me too.) No more disappointing AC/MM/EUM’s. Ditch your computer (other than BR) and cell phone for a while.
More hugs….
p. former doormat
u said she used to be a good friend wen she lived closer. good friends are hard to find. if it was me I’d just politely refuse to make days when she is supposed to call. just tell her try you wen she can. if yr available great. if not, no skin off yr nose. ppl do have busy lives & i get the feeling she justs caught up in hers & doesnt intentionally mean offence. just an option. of course take what works & leave the rest
sorry. tht last post was for A.
I know
. I am working on my boundaries, too, and I can tell you people *know* what they are doing or not (not keeping in touch). I used to make excuses for everyone, too…
Going through this right now. It’s not like we had a relationship, but still I was so good to this guy. I believe he purposely ignored my birthday. I called him on it and told him I knew that he was aware because he was on FB that day posting and he had to see it. He sort of shrugged his shoulders and said he just didn’t do it. Now, another girl on FB, he sends her a video of this guy doing all kinds of things relating to happy birthday. Also, he wanted me to sign up for something he was selling, so he went nc because I said no. Yesterday I got a text or two. I answered and so wished I hadn’t but I just wasn’t strong enough to ignore. He has treated me like crap the entire 8 months I’ve known him and I’m so ashamed that I allowed myself to be treated that way. But, he’s just the last of many that I’ve allowed. Wish I could get my self esteem to where I could just say no and walk away but that doesn’t seem possible. Oh, we were just fwb, but if I questioned it, he would say, why do you have to talk about it. Let’s just enjoy it and not talk. Also, didn’t kiss, snuggle or anything else that I wanted. It was all about him. Last time we were together, I felt like an unpaid hooker. I’m just tired and don’t know how to stop this cycle. I need help.
Lisa
Yes he did purposely ignore your birthday. (It’s so you wouldn’t get any ideas that you’re his girlfriend).
Yes he NC’d you because you didn’ t buy what he was selling.
Yes he treated you like crap.
Yes, you are being treated like an unpaid hooker.
Yes, it’s all about him.
You are a smart, observant girl.
You know how to stop this.
Lisa
I once overheard a conversation between two guys. One was telling the other about this girl he was sleeping with, he said “yeah, I guess she´s attractive enough but I hate it when she gets all sweet with me after having s*x, it´s so awkward. And when we go anywhere she tries to hold hands with me and I have to pretend I don´t notice. I just want to have some fun with her for a while, why does she have to get so romantic? It´s so boring…”
So yeah, guys KNOW EXACTLY what they are doing, even when they pretend they don´t. Please take care of you! Don´t put yourself in a position where you´ll be treated like that.
Lilia
Yep, I found myself on a male chatsite (don’t ask) where the men were talking about casual sex and how the woman will at some point send a text or email saying she can’t do it anymore. Casual sex supply cut off. They found it amusing. I detected no concern.
Lisa – He knows it’s temporary, he knows the woman will get fed up. When you decide you can’t do it anymore, just ignore him.
Don’t even waste your time on a text. And don’t misinterpret any subsequent blowing hot as a sign he really cares, he’d just be checking to see if he’s still got a hold on you.
Lisa,
Sorry to hear that you’re hurting. The guy is a jerk and he uses people, try not to take it personally–I guarantee you’re not the first person who he has treated poorly. As long as you keep in touch with him and are subjected to more of his crap you’re just going to feel worse. The only way to stop it is to just do it. Resolve not to contact him and not to respond to him when he tries to contact you. No more FWB, no more acting like you’re ‘friends’ when he clearly does not treat you as a friend or even with basic courtesy. He has shown you no empathy and is not contributing anything positive to your life. If you choose to stick up for yourself by cutting this guy out, you will start to build up your self esteem again.
Dear Lisa, I so feel for you, because I am in the same board as you!!! I broke my NC after 4 weeks and I am very ashamed to admit that:-( I blocked EU on my phone, but two days ago decided to unblock him, as I thought I was safe. I received text from AC, he was asking me to go to cinema with him, and I answered him!!! HOW STUPID OF ME…I was even polite and concerned about him and his second text was very casual, that he was just passing my area and decided to invite me…He probably did not have anything to do, so he decided to contact his FBG, if she is still there for him. AND I WAS!!! I wish I read Natalie;s brilliant post yesterday, so I would not answered to AC:-(
Lisa, we do not have any other option, only NC will help as and BR!!!
The cycle will stop if you aren’t in it. It sounds so simple when it’s said outright, but I know it isn’t because I’ve been there. I said the same thing for over three years, the drama continued and I kept saying I don’t know how to get this to stop. What I really meant was, I don’t know how to get him to change. I can see that now. When I finally let go it was because I finally stopped trying to change him and did what was in my power to do…let go. Two years out, solid NC for two whole years. I ran into him just two weeks ago. We had a very brief hello hello, but all the power I gave him in the past was GONE. It was no big deal. I just wished I would of jumped off the merry go round with him so much sooner. YOU can stop the cycle Lisa, just stop engaging. No ‘but this and but that’. Just stop. It’s hard but If I did it, so can you.
“The cycle will stop if you aren’t in it. It sounds so simple when it’s said outright, but I know it isn’t because I’ve been there. I said the same thing for over three years, the drama continued and I kept saying I don’t know how to get this to stop. What I really meant was, I don’t know how to get him to change. I can see that now. When I finally let go it was because I finally stopped trying to change him and did what was in my power to do…let go.”
Bingo! This is exactly how I felt when I was finally able to let go of a situation a few years back. One day I finally realized that things would never get better, in fact they were getting worse, so I felt like I had no other option but to leave. But to be honest, I don’t think that you can tell when you’ve truly begun to let go. I was so impatient and ready for all of the feelings to be gone, but thinking about it just makes it worse. For me, that fateful day kinda snuck up on me, as I was excited when one day I realized that I couldn’t remember the last time that I had thought about him. But now that I’m away from that I can actually look back on it now and appreciate the lessons that I learned from letting myself be a doormat, I learned that I didn’t like being treated like one.
But Lisa, the birthday thing happened to me to and boy did it hurt/piss me off like no other. But he only did it to me because he knew that he could get away with it with me, and I let him take the easy way out every time. I know you’re hurting right now, but one day all of the things that you’ve heard, read or thought about letting go are going to sink in and you will move on.
You deserve better. Don’t waste your energy and time on him.
CUT HIM OFF FOR GOOD.
Well, I haven’t posted since the beginning of the month. I was pretty sure I would never hear from this guy, but guess what? Sent me a text yesterday at 5:30. “I need a backrub.” That’s just his way of saying he wants sex. I know that this is the one day he has a few hours that he can do whatever he wants because his son is taken care of for a few hours. I texted back, “I’m not at home.” He texts, “where r u?” I lied and said I was at my nieces. His next text was, “well get home.” Now this after a month of ignoring me and acting like I didn’t exist. Also, not a how are you text, but just straight to the sex thing. So, I kept putting him off and he finally gave up. We’ve agreed to this Sunday, but I’m trying to think of something to text back to tell him and never see him again. Wish I had the nerve to just ignore him Sunday. I know when I text him that it’s not going to happen, he’s gonna get mean and say things to deliberately hurt me. I just have to be strong. I want this to be over and I want my self respect back. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks girls.
“- Claiming that the reason why they treat you as they do is because, for instance, you’re the ‘strong’ one in the family or don’t need as much as the others, or some other weird reason to justify why they treat you differently.”
Natalie, have you met my mother? What do you think about treating children differently because, for example “one needs more help than the other one”? I mean financial help, time spent with that child etc. I am really torn on this, because people do have different needs, but when “time spent” translates into “I will never have time for you again,” that gave me a pause. That’s like saying you don’t need as much love, right?
Help! AGAIN! Well this is exactly what is happening to me at this very moment! I am beside myself. So, I broke NC a couple weeks ago, with my ex EUM by answering an email that he had sent, telling me that he needed me in his life, he didnt know what that meant, that he was having a really hard time, hes realizing how f***ed up he is, but hes so sorry that he treated me so poorly through out our almost 3 year relationship. That he has realized that a healthy relationship is full of sacrifices, that I had taught him what it meant to make love to a woman, and that he realized that having other women around him while in a relationship, was unfair to me, and has since gotten rid of his “harem”. In a series of letters between us that followed over the last 2 weeks, he went on to explain that our relationship meant more to him than any other, that he still had very strong, deep feelings and that he really wanted me to find a way to be his friend, that right now it was just about a friendship, but that he does think about getting back together with me, and doesnt know what the future holds for us. I had figured aver the last couple weeks, that he was obviously single and working on himself, and so it was a bad time for him. I had a moment yesterday that I thought maybe I could be a friend to him. I needed to know for sure before though that he wasnt seeing anyone, as i didnt want to place myself in that situation. So i asked him point blank and anxiously awaited the answer. The text came back to me rather quickly. “I have been spending time with someone. yes. its been about a month now.” I lost it. cried. sobbed. totally. devestated. for the next five hours, he talked on the phone to me, circles, and contradicted himself. at the end of the conversation he said, “look, youve made me think that maybe its not fair to the woman im seeing to be in a realtionship with her, I need to think about that. but, at the end of the day, shes different, and totally understand our emotion connection and is fine with us being friends, so can you please be a part of my life?” my questions are this…am i being set up to be his fallback girl AGAIN? He went out of his way to contact me after i changed all my contact information. DID HE SERIOUSLY JUST CONTACT ME TO TELL ME THAT HE HAS SOMEONE NEW?….he says the relationship is very new and he doesnt know what will happen,…
Unbelievable. Really. This man is completely self-absorbed and has no regard at all for your feelings. I think you know that he can only bring pain. You have to stop putting yourself through this HSN. It sounds to me like he is getting kicks out of the power he has over you. Men like this will do anything to feed their egos and will never put your feelings first. They are incapable. This is who he is. I don’t know what else to say. He appears to be a complete shit. Nothing you can do about that other than leave him to it.
Yes! Yes HSN, your situation sounds to me like the perfect FBG. I can’t tell you how many times I heard the line “I’m so f***ed up but I need you in my life. Re-read everything Nat has written on playing the friend card. It’s a total disrespectful demotion to the gutter. Apparently males like this will do anything to maintain an adoring, fallback option (us) while engaging in a relationship with an unsuspecting and probably adoring new woman, the new gf. The exMM even resorted to a birthday card sent snail mail (last year) when he realized he was blocked via every way possible in cyber-space. Last year I was wondering the same thing: Did he seriously go out of his way to buy a birthday card, buy a stamp, and go to the post office? Yup he did. Subsequently, did he ever show up for a mutually co-piloted, healthy relationship based on honesty, trust, love and respect. NOPE. AC’s seem to have a knack for seeming to go out of their way to keep FBG’s on the hook by throwing little crumbs that we magic into a loaf. If you buy the friend card, you’ll be disappointed. Worse, since he’s attached now, you’ll be be actually buying the OW card. Oh, I’ll bet the new gf is getting a slightly different story regarding the “emotional connection”.
Bottom line: If you sign up for another go around, you are signing up to be the classic FBG, hoping for an upgrade someday and hoping to be the exception to the rule someday (leading to disappointment). Worse than that, you are signing up to be an OW (worse than disappointment). And if things could get worse than being a FBG and an OW, you would be signing up to be unavailable, an EUW (triple disappointment). It’s three strikes, he’s got to be out. He’s laid the terms out clearly. It’s up to you. I was faced with the same options. I finally had to opt out as none of the options he presented met my needs. 3 strikes, you’re out. In my case it was 130 strikes before he was finally out. It just gets sad when they keep striking out and then it’s time to ride the pine. So very sorry.
It’s baseball season in the US and I’m a giant baseball fan, thus I can’t resist the sports analogy. I know it’s lame but there must be a cross-cultural reason for three strikes and you are out. Since I never could hit, I was always grateful for three strikes. Otherwise, I still be standing at the plate trying to hit that darn stupid little ball.
Only reason I got to play was I could field that darn little ball, until I got smacked in the eye last year on a bad hop at second and ended up in the drs office for two days. At some point, there’s a point. It was time to hang up my cleats. It’s odd that when I realized it was time to hang up my cleats was precisely the same time I was realizing that I couldn’t be an OW. A few months later I discovered BR. I think I miss playing softball more than I miss him. Don’t miss the black eye though (bad hop at second, not him).
Hi Runnergirl
Its very interesting that you brought the three strikes. Reading BR, I started thinking about boundaries and how to enforce them, and at which point you opt out, and the same metaphor came to my mind.
I also raise sheep, and let me tell you, a sheep which has to run 3 times into a electric fence to get the point is a pretty dumb one to begin with. Or a stubborn one which will keep testing them over and over again. Also, the fence works both ways, keep the sheep in but the predators out. As far as I am concern, the coyote which dare crossing the fence is fair game for Mr Riffle . So to push the analogy as far as we can, the boundaries are there to keep the self-esteem in and the ACs and UEs out
.
Hi Isabel, I read your comment this morning and couldn’t get the image out of my head of the poor sheep that runs into the electric fence three times. That about sums it up for me. I’m that dumb, stubborn sheep that just keeps running into the electric fence. Your sheep analogy finally struck home. I’m used to the sports analogies, the playing in traffic, and putting my hand back into the fire analogies. The poor, dumb, stubborn sheep running into the electric fence finally struck home. Also your suggestion that the fence works both ways worked. Keeping the sheep in and the predators out. I cannot get the poor, dumb sheep running into the electric fence out of my mind. Thank you so very much for that analogy. You raise sheep? You have a riffle? I grow flowers and peppers and have to fight off bunnies with blood meal.
HSN
I am watching this unfold with some curiosity.
At what point are you going to throw the towel in?
Do you watch boxing? Ever seen a fighter up against the ropes and found yourself yelling:
“Ref, that’s enough!”
You’re getting pummelled to death.
Leave the ring.
OMG!!! This is too much HSN, even my ex AC did not do that:-( I think it is time for you to get very angry and block him!!! I would said, for example: “you had your chance, and blow it, lets move on in different directions!” I know how hard for you, me and Lisa right now to start NC again, but it is only our option, thanks God, we have our lovely Natalie and girls here who can always support us and give us advice.
(((Hugs)))
“…that right now it was just about a friendship, but that he does think about getting back together with me, and doesnt know what the future holds for us.”
Another OMG! Totally agree with Little Star. HSN, please don’t listen to him. ACs can’t be your friends and NEVER learn their lessons. He just wants to have his options open. The only way he’ll understand things is by you being rude to him. Take me as an example: I know that if I even say “Hi” when I bump into that ex AC of mine, just to keep civil, he’ll interpret it as “she’s still keen”. He’s got no concept of the mess he’s put me through and never will. Protect you heart and next time he comes around, don’t engage. NC all the way!!
HSN (and all the rest of us)
This is extremely old fashioned, but here´s a little song to help us along:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3mC4485Ue0
(Ah and don´t bother seeing the ending of the film, apparently in the original play she ends up marrying the good guy, not going back to the neurotic old bachelor EUM.)
Lillia
Love it, so sweet – go girl. Shame it doesn’t end there.
Did she marry Freddy in the original? I always liked him.
no no no! its an ego trip and he is reserving you incase this girl sees who he really is, I can bet my life that it was the other girls who dumped him when they realised what he as upto, not him letting them go because he suddenly got a consciounce!!! They did not put up with that type so why should you! He has it in his head that you will be his beck aand call girl, but why should you. stop punishing yourself you are worth so much more. His behaviour is a reflection on the type of person he is, not a reflection on the person you are , unless of course you like this type of person, in which case, what you crying for. be strong and live by your values and how you want a relationsip to be, i bet its not like this if you really think about it. its easier for us to see through him as we are impartial, if your friend was being treated like this you too would see it and tell her to be strong and look for types that try to make her happy, not types that use you when they are not happy.
best regards
Dawn
Oh ladies!!!! I really need your help these days!!! ……first off, thank you for keeping it real. I really find that I need that right now. This is the only place that I can come to talk too about this. I have moved, and dont know anyone in my new area, I am not working because i have had to be put on meds that help me deal with my anxitey and depression, I have had to move my daughter and son( from a different abusive relationship) and I in with family, because I cant cope, and through all this, my other friends have moved on. I feel very isolated, and alone.
@Grace ..your comment hit me to the core. I am being pummeled to death. I really am. Its absolutley rediculous the amount of crap that I have put up with from this man.
And yet, I am now facing what I have been dreading for the last three years. He has someone new. Im terrified that he is about to become the man that i wanted in a new relationship with someone else. I fear that i have done what NML has written about and made him a better man for someone else to prosper from. I have been having anxiety attacks for the last two days, everytime a thought of them together pops into my head. Them, holding hands, sharing romantics dinners, spending the day together, and making love at the end of that day. I dont understand why I was not worth the effort that he is now giving her. A week ago, I was completly happy and at ease, and what I thought was getting over him. we had emailed, and he had told me that his life was going so well right now, that he had a lot of things to figure out, but that he was still thinking about me, and still cared deeply and loved me. I started to not even care about him. Then, the text came that he was “spending time with someone, and she was different, she understood that him and I had an emotional connection.” even just typing that out makes me anxious and sad. Then there were the five hours on the phone after that. I did nothing but cry and tell him how hurt I was, asked him why he couldnt give the same chance to me, someone who had loved him, stuck by him, and would have done anything in the world for him. I asked how could he get in another relationship so soon..just a month after us breaking up, and I asked him why he was putting another woman thru this when he was so “F**ked up and didnt know what he wanted” his answer was, “i hate being alone, What am i going to do? sit and watch tv all day, or spend time with someone i like?”
I am having a super hard time with all this, and in the last few days I have considered ending it all. I sometimes wonder if my children would be better off not seeing mommy paralyzed in life like this and spending my days crying in bed. I know that NC is what needs to be done and STUCK TOO. I guess im just really scared of the unknown. and scared thinking that I wont know whats happening with him and the new gf. EVEN THOUGH THATS TOTALLY MESSED UP. Its like the left part of my brain, and the right part of my brain, and my heart are in a battle! Right now, hearing from you ladies is whats making me feel less lonely and isolated
HSN,
Your second post has me worried–please do not consider harming yourself. This guy is not worth it. If he were a changed man, he wouldn’t be messing you around like this, all the while seeing another woman. Do you really think he’s treating her well, sending all these messages and having these long conversations with an ex (you), saying to someone else that he may want to be with her one day, etc.? HE HAS NOT CHANGED. YOU ARE NOT MISSING OUT. He’s going to inflict all the same lies and hurt on her. Have you spoken to anyone in a professional context? It may be time to do so if you have considered harming yourself. Remember that you’re not alone, you have lots of people here on BR rooting for you.
A,
Thank you for your concern. I do have a counsellor, but I find that sometimes talking about it all the time, really only makes it worse as it all starts going in circles. I have had counselors since I was about 16 to help with my depression and anxiety issues. I am 36 now, and until I met the AC 3 years ago, after a very hard split from a physically abusive husband, I was doing very well controlling my emotions. I think that the worst part of all this for me, is when I start to think about the ex-AC and the new girlfriend together. what are they doing?…where are they? how often do they see each other?…Does he say all the same things to her that he did to me? Thats what hurts. I feel like im on the sidelines, watching him enjoy a new chance. I know that NC is the only way out. im just really scared. as usual. So coming here to talk about things, and talking to all you ladies, is what keeps me strong. So thank you all very much!
HSN,
I know it’s difficult, but try to take the focus away from him and put it back on yourself. Even if you can only do it for a few minutes at a time to begin with (something physical can be good for this–yoga, pilates–either a class or just streaming a video from youtube)….anything that requires your focus, really. Plus you’ll be doing something good for yourself, which helps to re-build self esteem and physically makes you feel better. Why focus on him having the chance to try again when you can focus on healing YOU and looking forward to YOUR chances to try again with someone who isn’t an emotionally unavailable AC. He has not changed, but you can. Work on changing your thinking and making it about you: YOU do not want this man, he cannot give YOU what YOU want, YOU deserve better, YOU are not going to put up with his disrespectful, user, behaviour, YOU want honesty, trust, love and integrity in a man and a relationship and will not settle for less.
Re the children: indeed, they are better off not seeing you like this, so if it works for you to do NC for them, start there. They are better off in general with a mom focused on herself and on them and not getting blown to the emotional winds over a man.
We often think of the bad role models we are to our daughters when we let them see men yank our chains. But I had a long relationship with a man whose mother had been constantly preoccupied with the latest boyfriend who didn’t treat her well but that she was “so in love with” – he deserved so much better than that.
Nothing can give him back all those years when he needed a calm mom who made him a priority, and instead got a nervous wreck who was always making excuses for why she was sad, tired, angry, out, etc. HSN, if doing NC for your kids will lead you to doing it for yourself, then start there.
magnolia,
You are absolutley right. Thinking about NC that way really helps me. I also think that if anyone ever treated my daughter the way that I am being treated, I would be livid. So its important for me to show my kids that its not ok to be treated this way. Thanks for the wake up call Magnolia.
HSN,
It’s all BS. “…that right now it was just about a friendship, but that he does think about getting back together with me, and doesnt know what the future holds for us.” And you called him on this–he doesn’t want to be your friend b/c he’s single right now and working on himself, he is dating someone else. And he wants you around as an option while he is with another woman. If he so valued your past relationship and wanted to be with you in the future, then why is he with someone else? This guy has not changed. You had the courage to ask him if he’s dating someone else, now you need to summon up the courage to block this a** once again.
Where’s Judge Nat and her gavel? Open-and-shut case of unbridled assclownery! BANG!
“… he realized that having other women around him while in a relationship, was unfair to me, and has since gotten rid of his “harem”.”
Except that now he wants you to be in his new harem, while he dates this new woman? Oh hell noooo!
HSN, this guy is gum under your shoe. He’s nothing but pain to you at this point. Disengage, protect yourself, and do the necessary mourning. Stay close to BR, memorize all Nat’s relevant posts, shift the focus to you. You can do it.
He contacted you so he could have a safety net. Notice that he told you what you wanted to hear (you taught me.. not fair to you… more important to me than any other) and did NOT tell you he was seeing someone until you asked, point-blank, and AFTER he hooked you with the can’t-live-without-you shit.
That was all conscious, deliberate manipulation.
Then you cry on the phone to him, he knows you’re still completely invested and have hope, and he throws the “who knows what the future will bring” wild card.
It’s cruel, it’s creepy, it’s selfish, it’s deliberate, and it should be a prison-punishable offense.
ixnay,
You are right, it really is cruel, creepy, and selfish. I have a hard time focusing right now on the all the crappy things and how much better i will feel without him in my life. instead I seem to be fixated on past happy moments with him, good memories, and wondering if hes treating her the same way he treated me in the beginning. Its very difficult to me. BR, NML, and you ladies are keeping me strong. So thank you.
It’s so funny, sometimes I read these posts and I see myself as the victim in the situation. Well not really the victim, but you get my point…But this time I see myself as the perpetrator as I have actually been the person that Natalie is writing about, I too have been afraid to disappoint certain people but not others. And I can truly say, it is not about the value of the person, but what the other person finds value in. In my case, it wasn’t that the people weren’t valuable in their own right, I just wasn’t taught to value love that is freely given. When you’re not afraid to disappoint truly important and loyal people it’s sometimes because you have been taught that you have to prove yourself to receive love. At some point in my life I think I learned that people would only love me if I was a certain way. So with an ass-backwards way of thinking, I figured that I no longer had to put my best foot forward once I learned that someone was truly reliable. Eventually I burned myself out, as I found that the people who truly valued me would never allow me to jump through hoops for them. I ruined relationships with truly loving people and chased after unhealthy ones with some not-so loving people
Being taught that I was going to have to “chase” love, I was never taught what to do with it when I had it, I had to seek that information out for myself and it’s still a work in progress. I imagine that anyone who devalues those who love them may be suffering from something similar. Whatever the case may be, if someone does not appreciate the value that you bring to their lives then it is time to have enough love for yourself to bounce and surround yourself with people whose love you will never have to question.
That, in a nutshell, is why we choose EUMs and are EUW.
We go overboard not to disappoint the people we can’t win with. We disappoint the people we can’t lose with. We value the people who seem to be disappointed with us, and devalue the people who are happy with us just the way we are.
And those men we can’t give up, WE are the people they feel secure enough to disappoint.
I couldn’t have read this sooner. Thank you!!!
I’ve been like ‘what did i do wrong?’ ‘what i could have done better?’,'why he could treat me like this?’ blah blah blah ,questioning to myself over and over. And now i know, IT WAS NOT ME.
It’s time to get my self-esteem back and be confidence again. I shouldn’t be changed into someone or treated bad by people who think it’s okay to keep dissapointing me.
your last paragraph reminds me of something that Maya Angelou said (and this is a paraphrase):
” When someone shows you who they are … believe them.”
FNM what a fabulous paraphrase. thanks for sharing
did make me laugh but oh so true, it certainly brings you back to reality and makes you think that what you beleived you saw/see in a person is just an illusion of how you hope the person would be. sometimes it takes a while for reality to set in, especially if you fancy the pants off them.
best regards
Dawn
quote “When you no longer believe everything you think, you step out of thought and see clearly that the thinker is not who you are.” Ekhart Tolle
A great quote by a great author and poet. But to make the quote even stronger remember what Oprah added on: Believe them the first time.
dearest runnergirlno1. thanku so much. i am hanging onto my life here by the slightest of threads. i needed so much for some1 to care enough to reply to my predicament. i almost left BR because I thought u all must know each other & that no- one cared about me or mine (except for Cc who once relied & magnolia I think but who I dont think I had provided enough info for her to understand my sitch fully). i see now i was wrong. I am suffering major clinical depression due to a long term work related injury & problems w my adult son also. I have zero family support. im isolated as my injury prevents me from driving. I have a counsellor who has been visiting weekly at home now for 12 mths & am in the process of org inpatient treatment for the depression. i feel this is the most kind & responsible kind & loving thing i can do for myself. i hav no prior psychiatric history (except complex PTSD related to serious child abuse however Ive always managed that appropriately with counselling which iv had on & off for many years). xAC reappeared in my life for 1 weekend & forced himself on my sexually against my wishes the first night / weekend. he was in a r.ship w another woman at the time which i knew abt. i was furious afterward & ended up reporting him to the police. i took no further action due to lack of witnesses & deep down i loved him frm 20 yrs prior wen we were a cpl for 3 yrs. Id held a torch for him all those years & always hoped he’d return.
that was 2 yrs ago now. 6 mths later he returned claiming to be single & to have moved out of the mother of his childs home. he lived interstate so i had no way of checking but evidence suggested at the time this had happened & I believe this did happen. he then persued a r.ship w me. Except he by now had revealed an active sustance abuse problem so i said go to rehab for inpatient treatment first & then we can assess suitability for a r.ship. surprise surprise 18 mths later he still hadnt gone to rehab. meanwhile he made a few trips to see me in my state & we were sexual so in some ways it was already a r.ship of sorts (after tht 1st w.end there was NC at all until he reappeared claiming to now be single). I eventually discovered he had reconciled w the mother of his child & deliberately witheld this frm me as my position abt not being prepared to b an OW had already been made clear. I discovered multiple OW he was screwing around with whilst supposedly single & in a LD sitch w me also. It was all such a nightmare & he treated me so bad. he even tried to incite me to suicide knowing I have major depression hoping I might do it to keep his filthy dirty secretes about his rampant infidelities secret (he hoped I would take them to my grave). I quickly realised his game & exposed him anyway instead. All i know is Im now jobless (but have insurance keeping me going at least for now) & will have to rebuild my life from scratch. So far I have managed to hold onto my house – for which I am deeply grateful. I was homeless frm 3-21 yo (I was raised as a ward of the state & shuffled around before spending my teen years as pedophile fodder) so my fear in that regard is horriffic. I am now 42 yo, college educated, 21 years clean & sober after substance abuse issues marred my youth in an attempt to medicate the pain of severe child abuse & neglect. I also have a 20 year successful professional social work career behind me (which unfortunately is now in tatters)
I am also a published academic author & have acheived wonderful things in my life as an adult (all be it with a lot of help along the way to mitigate my lack of family support). In 21 years of recovery I have not had a single abusive r.ship other than w this xAC. All the other people I have dated have been respectful & kind but just not ‘the one’ for me. This means I DO have self esteem & I know my (all be it modest) worth. I have bought a house (not too far off being fully paid for – hopefully if my insurance payments continue) & I am now in my final year of a psych degree. I am telling you (& me more so) this because I am not a woman who is easily effed with – but on this one occassion, withthis one guy I WAS. I think I thought he was last chance saloon & that is just so much BS! My self esteem (& health) have taken an absolute hammering. But here’s the thing. I have survived FAR worse than anything xAC did to me & I will get through this. But I cannot get through it alone so thankyou SO much for yr kind words & hugs. I needed them badly & my prayers through them were answered.
PS Nat I tried to purchased mr unavailable & the fall back girl two nights ago but it wouldnt accept my credit card details. i will try again later this week. love to all x
Hi Teachable,
I’m so sorry for what you have been through in your past. I’m glad what I said could be of some help to you. You have done such an amazing job with 21 years of sobriety and an almost paid off house and a published author. It sounds like you know what you are doing (counseling and meds) and focusing on you while you recover from your injury. A new career can be reestablished.
NC is a matter of life. The exAC clearly is not adding to your life, of course it’s always easier to see that from the outside. And he sounds dangerous. Your comments about suicide and forcing sex (twice) are extremely serious. Lying to you about reconciling with the other woman and forcing you into the OW role must have been a huge disappointment but the other comments got my blood boiling. Hopefully your torch for this guy has been extinguished? No matter how great he seemed to be years ago, his present behavior is reprehensible if not illegal. Going NC for good and recovering from your injury is your only way out. This guy is no prize. Forcing sex on women, playing on a woman’s vulnerability, lying, and a drug problem to boot. He sounds like a candidate for prison.
It sounds like you are on the right track now though, grounded in reality, and have a lot going for you. Natalie’s book Mr U and the FBG will be very helpful. I highly recommend her new book as well “The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship”. These returning childhood sweethearts are a classic fantasy relationship. No matter who this guy was in the past, the reality is that in the present, he’s seriously dangerous. You’ll love Natalie’s books.
My best to you. Stay focused on you and finishing your degree (congratulations!), that’s what’s is important. Also good luck with your son. Young adult children can be trying (I’ve got one too). Giant hugs and sending you a ton of cyber strength.
PS. Stick close to BR and don’t leave!
oh my teachable-
following on what runnergirlno1 said -
we’re going to all conspire to keep you from leaving BR. no, we don’t know each other (more on this below).
its horrible that you have been through so much, but you’re clearly resilient and STRONG. and BRAVE. and, i bet, determined, although you don’t feel that way right now. still, you are.
about what you said up top about feeling like everyone on BR knows each other – that may be sort of true for those who have recently joined, but everyone here was once new. what we do is resonate with each other. we all get it. and we get you. and coming to a new community is always daunting, but a community it is, and YOUR community it certainly is. use us.
here, i’ll help. think you’re alone? you’re not at all, not in the very least. i know, let’s take a poll.
*****ALL BR**** – all who have experienced any of the following, SAY AYE. i’ll start:
- childhood abuse? aye
- depression? aye
- PTSD? …..ok, fine, i’ll admit it – aye. eeeesh gawd, that was hard to admit, i feel like i just busted sum’in. ow ow ow ow ow ow.
- history of unhealthy relationships with men? aye
- abusive relationships?
- sexual abuse? (mercifully, i skirted this one)
- sexual assault? only a little aye here
- financial problems? aye
- continuing problems with parents, siblings, children? oh, aye
- having to re-raise yourself because the people whose job it was to raise you either did a terrible job or abandoned you altogether? AYE
hang in there, teachable. you’re going through an extremely rough spot. just keep going. stay on your own side. and KICK anyone who is not helping you fight this fight out of your life. permanently. anyone who is not on your side is in your way. do not let anyone get in your way.
don’t leave BR. it will help keep you pointed in the right direction.
cc:
“anyone who is not on your side is in your way.”
Well said. That’s about the size of it! Men who who think it’s okay to continually disappoint you and let you down in favour of other “priorities” (aka other people/events that actually matter to them!) are def. not on your side.
I say “aye” to a number of the above.
Teachable, This guy is a nightmare you really need to wake up from. Get him the f*ck out of your life (oops, pardon the French). I don’t “know” anyone here (though I’ve been posting so long I feel as if I do – fantasy relationships!??!). Welcome to BR! Don’t worry about not getting personal replies from posters (this is a blog, not a discussion forum – as Nat quite rightly has to remind us of sometimes!) Just posting and knowing someone is reading is helpful. We are reading! We’re on your side!