I changed my career a few months ago with the intention of starting university this September while supporting my [now ex-fiancé] through a job change and financial difficulty. I work in a private hospital and recently a major event occurred, which being part of a team, I was involved in. I turned to my partner for support and was faced with the following reaction: “You haven’t done anything wrong. I wouldn’t let it bother me, why are you letting it bother you?”
Following his reaction and lack of support, I clammed up, finding it difficult for the next five weeks to open up to him and even be intimate due to stress and exhaustion. I continued going to work and dealing with the investigation regarding the ‘major event’ alone. In that time, he struck up a friendship with a school acquaintance who he took to a charity ball while I was on holiday, something he lied about and later admitted to when he was caught out.
He said that me not wanting to be intimate with him led him to believe that I no longer found him attractive, although he hasn’t admitted to anything happening between them when questioned about why she’s suddenly a friend when she’s not been in his life for the last nine years and why we haven’t been introduced. She is someone I see at the gym; we know of one another but have never spoken in the nine years and he has ignored her. You can understand why I was shocked to learn they were now friends.
He doesn’t communicate well and immediately shouted and showed frustration, and then proceeded to tell me that ‘I don’t trust him, this is my problem and my insecurities!’ He has since moved out after attempting to call things off via text message. I have begun No Contact as I find it too painful to be in touch. He has since sent me a couple of messages which I haven’t read, but going by the preview, one says “Ignoring my messages isn’t the right way to handle this!” Can you offer some perspective on this situation?
**********
My first thought on this was, If they’ve been so happy for the last four years, how did things deteriorate at such a speed?
Here’s what is going on in a nutshell: You’ve experienced a traumatic event at work, which also represents a loss to some degree, which will bring up feelings and other associations from the last major trauma in your life: losing your father to cancer and also losing your boyfriend due to his lack of support during that time. It’s been triggering and this prompted you to retreat out of self-preservation. He took this as a cue that he’s being rejected (what he’s inferred from knowing he’s let you down and your reaction), possibly because he recognises that your response is similar to when you lost your father, so in a way he’s been triggered as well. His self-preservation is to seek out his ex and then to accidentally on purpose get caught so that he has a way out of the relationship without having to address the issues. You’ve also cut him off and so you don’t have to communicate either.
Lucy, you spent six months apart following the loss of your father, where you probably did a level of healing on your own and felt that it was ‘safe’ to go back to the relationship. It’s like, “Right, I’ve taken care of this big thing on my own so you can rest assured that I won’t need you as much”.
Based on what has unfolded recently, it is clear that aspects of that period remain unresolved, namely you feeling unsupported due to what comes across as a lack of empathy, you struggling to recognise and share your feelings even when it’s uncomfortable, him being dismissive of ‘uncomfortable’ feelings and being very confrontational in conflict situations, and there being a general communication breakdown.
The emotions attached to previous experiences of feeling dismissed, unsupported, bereaved and traumatised came rushing forward. You’ve then clammed up and maybe hoped that he’d register your pain, stress and exhaustion. In the meantime, resentment’s bubbled up because you’ve supported him as he’s gone through his own crisis, maybe hoping that you showing how support is done in a big crisis for him would mean that he would do the same for you next time.
While on holiday, he acted out as a way of expressing his own resentment and began engaging with his ex who lets him feel like a version of his younger self. He on some level wanted to press the reset button and escape present feelings and circumstances.
She knows that this situation is downright dodgy. She might feel sorry for him, she might like the validation of knowing that he hasn’t spontaneously combusted into a better man with his nine-year girlfriend and might even feel as if she was there ‘first’. My spidey sense tells me that it’s very possible that she featured in the six-month break and unless you live in Tiny Town with one gym, it doesn’t make sense that you’re all in the same gym with him blanking her for nine years, which suggests that him ignoring her was a bit of a show for your benefit and possibly to play games with her.
He claims that his actions were because he didn’t feel that you were attracted to him anymore. Bearing in mind that you were together for around 3107 days (I’ve deducted 6 months), I think even you can agree that courting his ex while you were in an emotionally difficult place for what equates to about 1% of the relationship (5 weeks/35 days) was a very premature and somewhat selfish move. He then says that you are the one with the problem, which is a code red alert in itself.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out that if you take up with your ex who you claim to have ignored for the last 9 years and you then take her out and lie about it, then yeah, there’s going to be a trust issue, a problem, and some insecurities as a result.
He tries to break up via text (What crack is he smoking that he thinks that that is even vaguely passable for a 9-year relationship?), moves out and then tells you that “ignoring [his] messages isn’t the right way to handle this”. What the what now?
In classic passive-aggressive style, he has created this situation with his ex, denied it, then admitted it and blamed you for it, essentially refusing to admit what’s going on:
I think that your ex is afraid of making this big commitment and has used your “major event” as the perfect excuse to slide out without responsibility.
Somebody who angers easily and gets frustrated isn’t going to tell you what’s really on their mind. Equally though, somebody who clams up isn’t going to talk about what’s on their mind.
You are both responsible for the lack of communication in the relationship but what you’re not responsible for is him stepping out on you. There are a number of ways that he could have handled the situation. Even if he couldn’t find the right words, he could try to find the supporting actions that let you know that he has your back.
He might think that the issue at your work was small but it was big to you. You guys were engaged. Sharing problems is part of the package deal. There is nothing worse than feeling lonely when you’re in a relationship. It’s like, Is it that you can’t see that I’m drowning or that you can see it but are happy to watch from the sidelines?
The man you were prepared to marry doesn’t really do emotional support and clearly that’s something that matters to you in the relationship.
He might show his love in other ways (or not) but for whatever reason, in these nine years he has not allowed you to need him in a big way and it’s important for you to be honest with you about the ways in which this has affected your relationship as well as how you have tried to model support for him instead of asking for what you need and/or not hiding away when he doesn’t get it right straight away. You were both going to get married without having learned how to navigate conflict and so I would also encourage you to investigate what the baggage is behind these situations where you feel unsupported: Is it just about this relationship or does this run deeper into other relationships or earlier life experiences?
Feeling unsupported can trigger feelings of abandonment.
You said that you were both very happy but it’s important to be honest about the anger, resentment and hurt that has been stored away. That won’t remove the good times but it will help you understand the truth about why your relationship worked as it did and why it’s now broken.
Doing No Contact (NC) as a way of putting some healthy space between you to grieve the loss of your relationship and to invest in self-care, is the right move as long as NC isn’t about trying to provoke him into doing what you want or as a way of avoiding feelings that need to be dealt with.
This is a big loss that you need to take time to process and talk out. Between the trauma of the event, the loss of your relationship and your earlier bereavement, I would encourage you to either go to grief counselling or to spend time with a therapist so that despite the pain, you can turn this into major growth and love through supporting you. I can’t say whether he would join you at a counselling session but with or without him, you will be able to get closure on this experience and heal.
Each Wednesday, I help a reader to solve a dilemma. To submit a question, please email advicewednesdayAT baggagereclaim.com. If you would prefer your question to be featured on the podcast, drop a line to podcast AT baggagereclaim.com. Keep questions below 200 words.
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Right on, Natalie. He used this to duck and weave out of any expectations that might be expected of him at a time like this. She’s better off. He’s flakey.
I’m a longtime reader Nat, and you have helped me through many a relationship and situationship lol. This time around, I really felt like I was the only one on the planet who had experienced something like this, and then wham! Here you are again, right on time, as always. This could almost be my story with my current boyfriend, ex and all, except that it was far shorter than nine years, and all very much condensed. In short, I got some less-than-great news from a doctor, and when I spoke to him, we disagreed, he went silent, and it lead into a big fight. We’d been fighting a lot at that time, because of an ex that had been hanging around as a fallback girl for years on and off, through several short relationships before mine (so I definitely hear you about the ‘I was here first’ thing). It lead to another huge fight, during which he flirted with her, I found out, and there was a huge falling out.
Where my story differs is that we spent about a month actively figuring out how to communicate with each other, as well as telling each other what was up, what was acceptable, what was absolutely not, how we felt, and what we would need to be able to move forward. The idea of working through something and sticking around, not going completely no contact was very new to me, and I spent a lot of time scouring the internet for advice. I was used to clamming up too, but this time I spoke up for myself and laid my terms out on the table, and he laid his, and took responsibility for what he’d done, and we were able to move forward. He blocked/deleted the ex, and has thus far made great improvements on everything we talked about, and I’ve been making my efforts too. We both feel loved, heard and respected. He’s been apologetic, but most importantly, he’s been consistent in his efforts, and while I can’t predict the future, I’m very happy with what I’ve seen over the last several months.
For a long time, I had doubts, but seeing this article really underscored a lot of the same conclusions I had come to at the time. I vented about it one last time the other day, and came to the conclusion that I’m in for the long haul. And the boyfriend has driven (or WALKED after he wrecked his car) me to every appt. since, and has been incredibly supportive. This might not work for everyone, and to be honest, I’m very surprised at our results, but I’m just saying thanks to Nat, and that there’s something to all this. Even if he squanders the chance and you have to move on in the end, at least you know you did all you could, and that it wasn’t just a lot of passive aggressive power-playing.
I’ll also add that this is the extremely condensed version of the story, which involves a lot more firm-handed talking to’s, other examples of missing the mark with regard to each other’s needs/coping and defense mechanisms and far more sense-making details, but I didn’t want to drop 80 paragraphs on you all, so I kept it extremely brief. But yeah. I can definitely relate to this one lol.
Ah, I really feel for Lucy. It’s tough when the person you love doesn’t step up to the mark, especially in the event of a death of a loved one. It happened to me too, but the damage was done and resentment set in and kinda chipped away at how I perceived that person. It’s hard to process and overcome such a let down.
Wow, two really big takeaways for me.
One – our tendencies to dismiss our need for emotional support with an “Oh well….guess he doesn’t do the kind of support I need”…and then continue in the relationship even though a space in our emotional needs gas tank will always be on “E”…and also to possibly be over-enthusiastic about anything positive that he does – as in “Well he’s comes home every night.” Leads to a buildup of a relationship destroying resentment.
Two – our tendencies to try to “teach” someone how to treat us by showing them the behavior we really want. So we will be Ms. Support_You_Through_Any_Storm and then be totally stunned when they remain just as non-empathetic as they’ve always been.
Why can’t we say to these men….”Babe, I need you to put down the remote and listen to me.” I get
why a man is unwilling to be interrupted during his favorite downtime activity, but I think it is necessary to state that you need some time to be listened to. Negotiate it like an adult. Say “I need to bend your ear for 90 minutes…so let’s set a time, and you listen to me, and next week I will make that dish you like.” This is part of the work that it takes to have a good relationship. If we continue thinking that the perfect partner is *supposed* to just *know* what you need, without our asking, we’re kinda livin in fantasy land. Yes, some people are more empathetic than others, and it is great when someone correctly anticipates what you need. But more often than not, you have to ask for what you need. And if you find you have a partner who refuses to hear what you need, then you need to decide if you can live with that long-term. And this should be sussed out during discovery, not after marriage.
I wholeheartedly agree. I think most relationship issues come down to communicational errors. OP and her partner both have issues with communication – clamming up is not the way to handle issues at all, neither is passive aggressive game-playing and exploding in fights. The other person will not necessarily understand what we feel, we need to communicate it clearly. Our expectations, needs and worries need to be communicated assertively, not aggressively or passive-aggressively. If the other person is not responding positively, does not want to listen, pretends not to understand our issues, that’s a very bad sign.
Communication errors* sorry 🙂
Oh Nat, you have again hit the nail on the head.
I’m a relative newcomer to Baggage Reclaim and I have devoured the blog posts, comments and a few of the books.
Only wish I had found it sooner. I recently ended a 15 years relationship with an EU with narc tendencies.
We had a really long “honeymoon” phase – 5 or 6 years. During that time I supported him fully when his mom was diagnosed with advanced stage colon cancer and the suicide of his father. However, when I needed that same support and empathy – it was not there. I suffered thru the death of my mother, my grandmother, my aunt and several dogs and horses alone.
I felt totally alone thru my own health issues (broke my back when bucked off a horse) and natural disasters (basement flooded ruining everything, willow tree falling on my house).
I called him on a lot of his behavior (late to my mother’s funeral, asked me to take a cab home from the ER when I fractured 2 vertebrae in my back) and each time I let him talk me out of ending it. I felt that I was getting hit with one freight train after another, with barely time to get back on my feet before getting hit with another train.
All of the above happened in a 5 year period and as he was not there for me I started pulling away little by little. We stopped sleeping together 2 1/2 years ago. He complained of trouble with his back, prostrate, etc. and really by that time I had no interest in sleeping with him anymore.
I finally ended it when I got a Facebook message from the woman he had been screwing for the last 5 1/2 years.
I have been pretty hard on myself for not ending it sooner. I knew long ago that this relationship was doomed. I knew by his actions that he could not/would not show empathy or compassion. I have learned greatly from this lesson. Better to feel the short term pain and discomfort of a breakup than to invest years and years of your life into a relationship that does not have the capability to change or get better. With some relationships – there is no getting back to good. Painful lesson to learn, but it’s a lesson I won’t forget.
Once they cheat, the trust is gone. Then later, if they act shady and you get suspicious, they say you are possessive, paranoid and insecure. No, it’s just that once they cheat they usually do it again, and once they betray you, they are damaged goods. Time to move on. This ain’t baseball so they don’t get three strikes.
Karen,
I wish I could say I don’t agree with you because this is harsh. But you know in the deepest part of my guts and intellect, I know you are right and I agree wholeheartedly. It just ain’t an easy thing to accept or say.
Wow, what aamazing examples — in the original case and everybody else — of how sometimes (a lot of times?) a man cannot be emotionally
present with more than 1 woman at a time.
You know, I read that somewhere on a version of Natalie’s blog from a male perspective that doesn’t work for me as well as BR. This guy was saying along the lines of yes, he may be PHYSICALLY present
(sexually and otherwise) but EUM — b/c someone else, possibly unbeknownst to you, and possibly many someone’s at that, is in the picture! This guy was saying that no matter what the guy may say or even do, guys just can’t commit EMOTIONALLY to more than one woman
at a time.
That goes for all types of permutations — cheating, a divorce, he is in love with someone else he can’t be with, on and on. Some guys can’t even emotionally separate from their families pf origin (hello, mother-in-law problems!) and prioritize the relationship with you.
I have also learnt the hard way that emotional availability has to be an explicit part of the relationship that each party is actively working
toward and on. Like, constantly. I think we kind of “expect it” and “model it” for guys who just don’t get it, just won’t get it, and guess what? Had no intention of getting it in the first place! This type of situation can snatch us up unawares until something tragic happens or there is some conflict — in which case they run. Why? Because with all the fun and games going on tied to a relative lack of conflict (possibly b/c we were in a perpetual pleaser role), emotional availability was not part of the deal.
Also, specifically related to death, family troubles and illness — some people in general, and men in specific, just don’t “do that” and can’t “go there” with you.
That’s been unfortunately what I’ve seen and experienced as I’ve gotten older and people are starting to have parents die or become ill and/or we are becoming ill.
I PERSONALLY have had longtime friends who I REALLY TRUSTED just up and abandon me relative to such issues. Talk about blowing hot and cold! And yes, this had been, SURPRISE! after I’d been their rock through whatever issue THEY were going through.
Unlike Elgie, I don’t believe any more in quid pro quos(QPQ’s) relative to emotional business. It’s either there or it isn’t — I personally don’t trade dishes or sex treats or whatever just to be listened to, cuddled instead of f*ck’d, etc. I did that when I was younger, though, that’s how I learnt how not to do that any more. Not with the 40-50 plus set, oh no. No more QPQ’s absolutely not. It has to be equal — an ear for an ear, so to speak — you listen to me, I’ll listen to you. I think that’s reasonable to expect of any adult that wants to be in your life in any real way once you’re out of say, your 20s. That level of emotional respect and growth is just another adult responsibility, just like jobs and taxes.
Unfortunately, though — some people just don’t get there– and don’t want to.
So, these days, I am uber careful about who I let come close, e.g. into my Circle of Trust. I mean, I know what my needs are possibly coming up, and I’m almost flip about letting men know sort of immediately that at this stage in life, a parent could drop at any time so if they just want a for-fun type of thing, to rescue them from the aftermath of their divorce or whatever, I’m probably not that person for them.
This type of stuff is relatively easy to test on a man — how ’bout an old school feminine product run, eh? How does he act when we have cramps or are otherwise bleeding it out every month? Seriously. Look at how many relationships end or he cheats when the woman is in menopause, presumably — that tells you quite a lot about the character of a lot of guys, just that right there. There’s research to suggest that women who are on birth control tend to pick the wrong partner — I think there’s some truth to that. Not to get all biological determinist on y’all (I do believe in free will, kinda sorta) — but I do think we all need to be more aware and alive to what’s going on with how guys are meeting SMALL and DRAMA FREE needs so that we don’t get slammed so hard when he can’t and won’t meet a BIG, THREATENING, LIFE ALTERING need.
I mean, I personally am at the point where I don’t want any (more) nasty surprises relative to a person abandoning me when I need them. If I can see or suspect early on how a person is or might be but I still let it go and let it go for whatever reason, that’s on me. For example, some guy with an ex wife with her claws still in plus a child to raise? Uhhh — no, not for me. People who e-mail and e-mail and text and text but can’t be bothered to see me or at least hear my voice by phone? Well, they can stay disappeared without “checking in” to see if I’ll take the electronic bait.
Me personally? I think a basket of years + a tragedy is too long and too much to find such a thing out a they won’t be there for you about a person with whom you’ve been in a relationship. That works for them until it can’t, I might add.
I think guys (and people in general) who can’t be there for you either say so (that is, if they know themselves well enough and aren’t lying to get laid or otherwise get something from you), show their hand rather early or plain ol’ disappear (also early). I think they stay around for years and years b/c THEY are getting their needs met at the cost of our poor souls, and really had no intention of reciprocating from the beginning. Things seem fun and nice and all, until it SO ain’t.
I think they slip it by in small ways first, but it’s really not as noticeable how they really are until something BADBADBAD happens to us, at which point they act weird, disappear, become incommunicado (seemingly all of a sudden but really look at it, it wasn’t sudden) etc. etc. They do that in part b/c they can’t meet your needs, but also b/c YOU can’t meet THEIR needs for a time– it’s like a vicious circle/cycle that feeds on itself, see.
So in one word: harumpf.
But, I’m glad to know, though, that based on what Nunia said
it is possible that these people do change. Not likely, but
possible.
Thanks JC. I absolutely agree, especially about how they can’t meet your needs because you can’t meet theirs for a time. Every time I was pregnant and had obvious needs for some care and concern, my (ex)husband would be the worst partner ever, coming up with more and more things he needed from me so he didn’t have to do anything for me. Every time I was sick or tired, he was much more sick and much more tired..and on and on. How pathetic.
It’s so true that if they can’t be there for you in the small ways, be gentlemen, open doors or other simple gestures, there is a great probability that they will never be there for the big things. I don’t have the time or patience or desire to teach a man how to treat me right. I’m not going to be negotiating cooking meals or whatnot to get some simple normal generosity. BTW, it’s not true generosity if it comes with strings and if someone can’t be truly generous with small things, they are just not the generous type and I am and so we cannot be a match.
I wish I had learned these things prior to getting married and having children because he has proved that he is just as uncaring and ungenerous to them, especially now that they are grown. Sad and breaks my heart for them. They seem to have accepted it all and keep their relationship with him very shallow so as to not get hurt with unmet normal expectations.
With the last man I dated, I knew that he was incapable of a real equal relationship when he wouldn’t even discuss things. I purposely would ask very rationally if he thought my expectations were unreasonable. He would get angry and defensive. It was so weird because I made sure to not be confrontational. I was really just curious if I was really off on things (I don’t think I was haha). But we had that great chemistry thing and he was a FUN guy…I was just looking for more than FUN.
So we all live and learn. I think if we know our own needs and our own capabilities in a relationship we can be much more discerning and WALK away much sooner if the writing is on the wall even though we don’t want to read it.
Time is short. Don’t waste it on the wrong relationship!
Peace everyone!
Hi Lynne — I agree with freaking everything you stated. I’m very sorry to hear that the louse you were married to and bore children with showed himself whilst you were, you know, bringing new life forward!
Unfortunately though, I think that’s very common, more than we realize for men to misbehave, cheat, treat us badly relative to the female body and whether or not he has sexual access to us. Just look around — how many famous older couples do you see? Or is it more an older guy with an inappropriately younger woman? Ever notice how the marriage is done for when the woman is in her 50’s(e.g. going through “the change”, probably) Ever notice how many men cheat when the woman is pregnant, nursing, etc. etc.? That stuff happens in real life, too!
Because, see, his priority is physical, not emotional. I think it’s a very common theme that women don’t really talk about amongst ourselves — how they act when we’re pregnant, having our periods, menopause, how he views our naughty bits, you name it. That’s why I’m saying his EU is easy to spot with say, a feminine hygiene shopping trip for him. If he finds it gross or distasteful or embarrassing, I’d say run.
Try not to get too graphic — but I read a few things recently along the lines of, like, 60% of men find women’s naughty region down below to be nasty, smelly, literally distasteful, etc. Meanwhile, of COURSE he wants what he wants relative to HIS privates. And guess what? MOST of us comply!! This one poor girl was with a guy called her “boyfriend” for 3 years who washed immediately after intimacy, TOLD HER her below was nasty, etc. Uhhhhh — NO! That in of itself is emotional abuse! In turn, I’d say your husband emotionally abused you when you were with child! NOOOOOO!
Okay — whenever I personally have been with a guy like that, who wasn’t equal with me sexually, turns out he was emotionally deficient as well! As you showed, you absolutely don’t want to fall pregnant to a guy without his emotional socket plugged in as far as nurturing, being serious about prioritizing your needs, etc.!
Me personally, I scare a LOT of men off by just being frank about my needs and enquiring about theirs. ALL of them. Emotional, physical, spiritual if he has some sort of sense for what “spiritual” means. I mean, I just ask, for real — what are your needs? ALL of them? ‘Cuz here’s mine, okay? If he finds himself tongue(*wink*) tied in a get-real conversation like that then. . .it’s best he be gone. Saves me a lot of trouble and heartache later, seems like.
JC,
You bring up a lot of really, really good especially relevant points.
Woman to woman Thank you Thank you Thank you
Lucy,
Don’t marry him.
That is my most instinctual response and had it not been for other women giving me theirs, I’d be trapped in a horrid situation.
He minimizes your significant issues implying you should be unaffected like him. Gross. Then he blames you for his unacceptable behavior, then he acts rashly, and, well, what do you know, blames you for his unacceptable behavior. Have zero tolerance for this by no contacting him and walking away. You had zero influence or control over his childish behavior. Do not be married to this man. He is subtly manipulative which is so insidious. The truth is, yes, you can wipe away decades of relationship with a foolish choice. It takes just one, and in this case he’s given you more than one reason to leave indefinitely. This is life. We must all learn this lesson. It is time for him to grow up. And not on your time.
Many of us here at BR are recovering people-pleasers, and as such, “negotiation” may be seen as a dirty word. We can’t for the life of us figure out why we should have to ASK for what we want, because no one ever has to ask US to treat them well.
But I think asking is necessary more times than not. I had a male coworker, and Irish man who, in his second marriage, was much more giving than he had ever been in his first marriage. After his first marriage ended, he took stock and realized he was a poor husband. He told me that he grew up with 2 sisters and 3 brothers, and never had he ever touched a laundry basket, a washing machine, or an iron. Growing up, he learned that was his sisters’ job. But in his second marriage, he had 5 children, and a wife who worked, and his wife asked him to participate in the chores. Had she not asked, he would never have done it. He wasn’t being thoughtless….it just did not occur to him. And because he loved her, he chipped in with the chores.
So far as rewarding a man for changing for the better…I am willing to try that course of action. Not tit for tat, but training them….much like training a dog. I love a well-trained dog, and I rarely see one, but when I do, I admire it’s owner because I know it took work to make that happen. I watch the various televised dog training shows, and learned that positive reinforcement is how you get a dog to behave the way you want. You catch them doing the right action, and you reward it. In the beginning you use “rewards” and over time, the dog repeats the good behavior without needing a reward every time. I look at that training method and I see a lot of correlation with relationships. With unruly dogs, the owners only seem to give affection, they never train the dog in the basics of sit/stay/come/down/off/heel/no, they never establish boundaries, and they never become respected by the dog.
I admit to never having negotiated with a man to have him lend me his ear when I needed it. But I have never asked a man to give me ANYTHING, and guess what, men have given me NOTHING. I think if I had asked for what I wanted early on, I would have quickly seen that these men I chose were not “givers”.
In my final go around with the single EUM I’ve known for 23 years, I said “I want a boyfriend.” He said nothing. He would come over maybe twice a month, and call me maybe once every 10 days…the relationship NEVER deepened. I could still be seeing him if I wanted, and pretending that he was the man in my life…and feeling alone, because he never tried to know me. The day I called him on his job and he responded like I was an old acquaintance that he hadn’t heard from in a while, with that distant “Hey, how are you?” is the day I gave up the ghost. A few days later I called him on his job to say “Andrew, I don’t want to have sex with you anymore.” He said OK. That was five years ago. He’s kept up the same level of contact we’ve always had…texts about his band gigs and happy birthdays and happy new year. This year I’ve ghosted him….did not happy birthday him nor do I attend his gigs. He has no idea, because in his world, everything remains the same. No amount of my giving to him would ever have changed him into a giver because it is not in him to give. Not saying he’s selfish, but more that he’s stunted. His upbringing left him unable to participate, and the only person who can fix that is him.
So when it comes to relationships, I’ve given up teaching by example, I will ask for what I want, and am prepared to walk away early on from what I don’t want.
Hmmmm — Elgie, that’s an interesting take/read, beginning to end– be willing to train a man/dog but ONLY if such can be trained and if not, run.
Me personally? Never worked b/c the damaged man reformed by my loving ways ALWAYS ALWAYS moved on quickly to someone else once he shaped up under my tutelage.
Harumpf.
Elgie, JC,
Men are not dogs. They are fully autonomous beings with conscience, consciousness and self-actualizing potential in the same way women are fully human beings. They cannot be trained like “dogs” just as women cannot be trained or owned like “cattle”. This comparison where a human has domain over another like an animal causes me great unease and feelings of nausea. I find this completely unacceptable; I would never stand for a man talking about women this way with out speaking up. Truly revolting. What about meeting an authentically genuine human who listens to their own sense of self versus allowing society to over dominate behavior. Mutual communication between adults is not training. Dangerous comparison alert.
Jennifer, thank you for speaking up. I agree with you and had similar feelings while reading. My son’s dad would say the same things about how to treat/bring up children – for him this meant bully and control as he has huge narcissistic traits that I didn’t recognise at the time.
When I see a well trained dog I wonder how the owner treats their family.
I agree with Jennifer on this one. It’s like saying “all men are rats” which is really insulting to the decent men out there. And doesn’t Natalie have articles on the futility of trying to teach basic human decency to fully formed adults?
Reacting to: What about meeting an authentically genuine human who listens to their own sense of self versus allowing society to over dominate behavior. Mutual communication between adults is not training. Dangerous comparison alert.
Respectfully, I don’t think that’s what most women on BR are relating from their experiences, and I don’t find the comparison dangerous.
I think what we are all striving and struggling for is meeting such people as you mention and forming life-affirming relationships with them. But that’s not the experience most of us are parsing.
Meanwhile, I think it is worthwhile to support Elgie on her perspective. If Elgie’s perspective is at the moment that “men are dogs” at this time so be it — until time and experience (and Natalie’s work) beget a different perspective.
Notice that I said that her perspective was “interesting.” I also named what gelled with my own personal experience — which is *personal* and which I share openly and with vulnerability — and, as such, is not open for (heated) discussion or attack.
I think everyone deserves interest in their perspectives at a *minimum*. Describing any woman’s perspective here as “revolting” after what many of us have been through in our relationships, I don’t find reasonable. It’s the experience with these EUM’s that is revolting, not naming the behavior and subsequent protection from it (e.g. treating them like, for example, dogs).
I don’t think that we’re here to defend men. Who among us is jumping up and down about all the love, care, trust and respect we’ve received from “all the good men out there?” Right. Who are not in our lives and in relationships with US *at this time* I might add.
I think that we’re here to support women who are in various stages of healing from EUMs, *whatever that stage may be*. I think the negative comments against Elgie (and I, by proxy) seemed to come from women who are in decent enough relationships and/or witnes them(. . .e.g. my son’s father, etc.) If you’ve got a good relationship, great! If you know what one looks like, all the better! But I don’t think it’s fair for anyone with their goodies in tow to not support those of us who are looking, wounded and looking for support.
I think the idea of “training” or “modeling” is ON THE WAY to “mutuality,” some of us aren’t there yet, it’s a continuum. And that’s OK.
To elaborate just a little — until I make sure that my vulnerability is not subject to attack — the “tutelage” I refer to personally is the rather common situation where you’re with an EUM or emotionally deficient man or person. You’re the one doing the giving, the loving, b/c that’s the person you are. You hope against hope that the person will take the hint and reciprocate. Because? You love the person. You may even ask for your needs to be met in turn. But what happens? He leaves, he gets engaged to someone else in weeks whereas you were with him for YEARS. Yes, he was “broken” from his “divorce”, he healed with your love — and left! I mean — dogs really *are* more loyal than that, okay?
Sheesh! Guys really do have women locked out as far as finding their tribe and sticking to it — you won’t see men on a man’s forum sticking up for “all the good women out there,” okay?
Harumpf — if you’ve got it good, maybe be silent — and let those of us who need each other to get through the bad times — alone.
Why do we have to remain silent if we experience things that are abhorrent to us? Surely being able to point it out is as valid as Elgie having been able to say it in the first place?
“I think that we’re here to support women who are in various stages of healing from EUMs, *whatever that stage may be*. I think the negative comments against Elgie (and I, by proxy) seemed to come from women who are in decent enough relationships and/or witnes them(. . .e.g. my son’s father, etc.) If you’ve got a good relationship, great! If you know what one looks like, all the better! But I don’t think it’s fair for anyone with their goodies in tow to not support those of us who are looking, wounded and looking for support.”
I don’t know why you would assume that because I commented negatively then I am in a decent enough relationship, or witness to one. I am in an fwb-type situationship with a man who, before I met him, was repeatedly beaten by his narcissistic now ex wife. He is a decent man and a good friend but I would hardly call it a relationship with all the goodies in tow. My son’s father, as I mentioned, is a narcissistic, controlling bully. I say is, I haven’t seen or heard from him in several years but I am confident he has not changed as people like him don’t. I know that now. He has no conscience/empathy and those things can’t be learned. I’ve learned a lot about narcissism since starting to read BR, it was like a lightbulb switched on.
However, we are not here to denigrate men. And this is not a women’s forum – there are men who have suffered as much as we have at the hands of emotionally unavailable women (and men), and who read and have commented on Natalie’s blog.
Peace and love to all except narcs and other psyco/sociopaths
Why do we have to remain silent if we experience things that are abhorrent to us? Surely being able to point it out is as valid as Elgie having been able to say it in the first place?
I think I answered that above but here goes again — I think the negative language and quickness to defend “good men” is not reasonable relative to my personal experiences and my vulnerability in expressing them in a forum like this.
I was really surprised that no one really wrestled with what she was saying and considered it but went straight for putting it down. And took it SO LITERALLY. Jaysus, I mean, REALLY?
I think something along the lines of “. . .have you ever considered XYZ” would have been better.
I never have viewed this forum as “denigrating men” lock and barrel but “denigrating EUM MEN” — which to me, is perfectly reasonable (except for the fact that they don’t give US a second thought, but I digress.)
The FWB thing, can’t comment on that b/c Nat has said enough about that. If you don’t want more, that’s on you, and best wishes. Me personally, I. Want. More. Starting with how things and ideas are communicated, anonymously(presumed?) here. Nothing is set in stone, and I’m glad that I’ve taken the risk of growth by wrestling with communication on this forum.
Thanks.
And. . .uh. . .harumpf.
In the last part of my message I was trying to get across that emotional unavailability does not *just* afflict men. Plenty of Natalie’s posts refer to women who have it – mothers, friends, co-workers and, no doubt, wives. Indeed, I think when readers first come here for support, nearly all are themselves emotionally unavailable – it’s what gets us into these unhealthy relationships start with.
Re the fwb thing it suits us at the moment – thanks to BR my eyes are open to what it is, and I am not available for a ‘proper’ relationship at this time anyway. When my son is older, if I haven’t spontaneously bumped into Mr Right by then I will probably go looking for him, hopefully with my emotional availability intact. I absolutely understand you would want more than that and I wish you luck in finding it.
I have no interest in starting or continuing an argument in this setting, as I believe everyone on here as a right to express their opinion, even if I respectfully disagree with some of it. As to the assumption that I must be in a great and/or decent relationship to have expressed my views, I’ve been single for five years and the ex who brought me to BR was abusive and psychologically pathological. That said, I do have high quality platonic friendships with ethical, decent men. That was the only point I was trying to make.
Sorry, should read “anyone on here *has* a right to express their opinion. I apologize for the typo & also for if my words came off as attacking in any way. They truly were not meant as such.
Very well put as usual, JC.
I fully expected there could be this reaction to the use of a dog training metaphor as a comparison for the effectiveness of positive reinforcement. It is a mine field to speak metaphorically because many are prone to take the literal stance.
So for the literals, I do not think of men as dogs, or women for that matter….. but I see a lot of correlation between how we train people to treat us and the effort one should put into training a dog. As a matter of fact, on one of the Cesar Dog Whisperer shows, a young woman with an unruly dog said that Cesar’s methods didn’t just help her with her dog, but also helped her in her approach to life situations. I believe his tag line is “I rehabilitate dogs. I train people.”
I am not in favor of those who equate discipline with bullying. I think people who yell at dogs are not exercising discipline.
Years ago I watched a wilderness show where a lion cub was annoying the lioness mother, being a general nuisance. She took her big paw and swatted him with such force that he landed a good 20 yards away. The cub righted himself, shook his little head, then trotted back over to his mom and played in a less annoying way. I never forgot that, because it showed me that even the less sophisticated brains in the animal kingdom realize that hard swift slightly painful discipline is sometimes necessary….the earlier the better.
They are who they are. They don’t change. Only thing you can do is walk when you see things you don’t like.
Don’t teach them. Don’t make them better…for someone else.
The one and only EUM I ever dated I always thought would have stayed with me had I left him each time he did something wrong. His wife did that.
But she has a husband who looked down my shirt and gave me the eye every chance he got. Until I shut him down.
Happy I never got serious with him.
Sorry, Elgie, but I disagree with you. Animals are a completely different kettle of fish to humans. They have their own senses of hierarchy and don’t have human morals. (Cats, for instance, are quite at home with incest) Humans should not try to emulate them just because how we can train them and how they behave with each other ‘fits’ our beliefs of how we would like our fellow humans to behave. We have to let our fellow humans be who they are, and if that doesn’t fit with us then walk away.
All — I would like to support both the protest-y comments AND Elgie by stating what I’ve stated in other posts on other topics: I think this particular forum is exceptional by offering support for women’s viewpoints, in particular, women who have been in terrible, life altering, even dangerous relationships with EUM men.
As such, I personally can simultaneously support the viewpoint that “men are dogs” alongside the viewpoint that “men are not dogs.”
Therefore, I feel comfortable supporting Elgie’s viewpoint AS WELL AS disagreeing with it. I don’t think her viewpoint deserves the attack it has received, as well as my support for it.
Reacting to: And doesn’t Natalie have articles on the futility of trying to teach basic human decency to fully formed adults?
In general, me personally? If men or anyone in your life displays doggish behavior, treat them as such and run. If men or anyone in your life displays human behavior, treat them as such — but think very carefully about staying, based on where you are from past experiences in childhood, etc.
Don’t be vulnerable and confuse the 2 — by treating a doggish acting man as if he can be trained to be a conscious human being. He can’t — that’s where we get into some rather DANGEROUS trouble. Humanity really is either there or it isn’t — we’re not talking about simple things as, say, leaving a toilet seat up or something. That, like a dog, can be trained. Something like, say, telling the truth, honoring commitments, not lying, not having sex without concurrent emotional attachment — those things can be MODELED for an EUM, but not trained.
So — don’t get it twisted — of course animals and humans are not the same, presumably b/c humans are supposed to have free will, a conscience. It’s the BEHAVIOR that is. For me personally, if the men and others in our lives displayed their humanity for us *with or without* “training” well. . .we’d have no use for BR, I think.
Harumpf. Harumpf, harumpf, harumpf!
P.S. — Everybody knows animals are more loyal and loving than people. If we find ourselves lonely, we should get pets and stop dealing with men and others who treat us badly. Even a fish will do. Just sayin’.
I really don’t see anyone ‘attacking’ yours or Elgie’s posts. People are allowed to have their opinions on here just like you are – no need to ask them to be ‘silent’ (as per your post further up). Also please don’t assume that everyone who doesn’t think trying to change/train a man is a great idea has ‘got it good’ – maybe some of us just see the futility in doing that. People are the way they are – being some kind of version of a fixer to these guys is just storing up trouble for yourself.
I think the attacks are subtle, yes, but they are attacks. That’s the way women attack each other — by being unsupportive of one another and with sneak-attacks. The negative language is an attack — when I merely stated I found the viewpoint expressed “interesting.”
So yes — based on what I see as attacks by viewpoints unsupportive of women, I do think those that do not support women on a forum like this and, instead, talk about “all the good guys out there” — I have a need for them to be silent relative to insisting on being supportive of “all the good guys out there,” vs. not being supportive of women, given the choice. I was actually kind of surprised that more people didn’t react with *interest* in what Elgie was saying, and instead, went straight for tearing down her thoughts and jumping straight to the defense of “good men.”
I have a need to support women and to be supported. I do think there is a fine line between expressing and opinion and a subtle attack when it comes to communication in general and with women in particular. I think opinions in disagreement with other women can be expressed without the extreme language of “insulting,” etc.
Frankly, who cares if men are insulted in a forum like this? The viewpoint in question is of “all men are dogs” (probably untrue) is vs. “all EUM MEN are dogs”(probably true). I think that missing that distinction relative to what I perceive as the attacks missed the point: when I personally disparage men, etc. on this particular point and forum in general, I automatically assume it means the “bad guys,” which is what I assumed with Elgie’s comment. I recognize not everyone does, but I also think it’s important — did anyone who attacked or disagreed even bother to find out if Elgie meant that comment literally? No. Which later she said was sort of tongue in cheek? Okay then.
So, I do think anyone who doesn’t have to “train a man” has got it good. It’s not an assumption, it’s just the law of the jungle.
How often does *anyone* new come into your life and not have to be “trained” in some way to fit into your ways, quirks, foibles, hurts, past history, etc.?
Please notice how even in this little forum, I’m “training” people toward the way I view things and think. I think Elgie did too, later — who was to know that she was sorta kidding?
That’s how you grow — by looking at a multiplicity of viewpoints, sharing them, struggling with them, making some attempt to state what you need and to gain understanding. It takes “training” (practice) to be able to do that. I think doing that here, anonymous and online is less…how shall I put it . .maybe available? Let’s go with available. . .I think doing that process of growth is more available anonymous, in writing, and online than it is in our personal relationships, especially with men. I think that’s what I personally need to change, that’s an area of growth for me personally.
So, to me, “training” and “fixing” are 2 different things, and it’s important to know which is probably OK — either serious or tongue in cheek(“training”) and which is probably not OK, bordering on dangerous (“fixing”.)
So, “please do” and “please don’t” — not welcome, not productive. “Please think about it this way” or “how about . . .XYZ” — that’s better for me, that’s more like what I need because I can have a bat-to-bat snarkfest with flesh-and-blood. Virtually, I’m looking for a different type of engagement for now. Otherwise, I personally could be silent — but what would I learn from that? Right, not that much.
JC, I believe that women should support and uplift each other. I dislike seeing women tearing each other down and general cattiness. I agree with you 100% on that point. It truly was not my intention to attack anyone. I was merely expressing an opinion, as others of have done. Personally, I don’t see how acknowledging that some good men exist is an attack on or unsupportive of women. I’ve been hurt by men, but there are also men in my life that I value. That’s all I was trying to say.
1) we’re not talking about simple things as, say, leaving a toilet seat up or something. That, like a dog, can be trained.
2) we’re not talking about simple things as, say, leaving a box of tampons out or something. That, like a dog, can be trained.
Personally, I’d rather just be asked than trained, like a dog or otherwise. If there were any kind of consequences or rewards involved in me (not)remembering to put my box of tampons away, to me it would feel condescending and I’d like to think I’d be outta there.
The correlations I take from watching dog training shows have to do with self-assertion, setting boundaries, and communicating your expectations through action.
Please look at this with some humor……..I’m not the first to see a correlation. In 1962, a comedy movie starring Sandra Dee and Bobby Darin explored this same territory……. it is called ” If a Man Answers “ and the plot line is “a woman’s mother gives her a puppy training manual and tells her to use it to train her husband. The results are hysterical!”
Psssh — I raise your Sandra Dee to a trashy romance novel I read — knockoff of “Bridget Jones” called “Dog Handling!”
Haaaaa — giggle. . .but . . .harumpf! :=)
Hey folks, re the forum like discussion above about dogs etc. It’s distracting me from getting the most I can out of this article. Put ‘site guidelines’ into the search box and you get this:
“2. … If you behave like this is a forum even though it’s not, it’s like basically showing up and loitering all over the ‘property’ putting your feet up on my coffee table and having random conversations while everyone else is having a focused discussion…”
I’m a regular reader here but rarely use the comment facility these days. However, I do read comments and gain much from other’s thoughts and perspectives on a given topic. I have benefited hugely from Nat’s articles and any time I find myself slipping into EU thinking and behaviour a read here usually gets me back on track. I find that themes of low self worth, emotional unavailabilty and the self fulfilling prophecy when courting pain and inauthenticity permeate all the articles\readers questions\advice Wednesdays\podcasts. This one is no exception.
Ladies, I’m all for on-topic, respectful discussion but this is straying into something else altogether that is not in the typical spirit of the site and the comments. We often read comments, texts and emails in the way in which we want to read it not necessarily in the way in which they are conveyed.
Whether we admit or not, we teach even when we are not actively doing so. We communicate not just with words and actions but also by what we don’t say and do.
I don’t believe that the original comment said, “Treat men like dogs” (or in fact any person).
Positive reinforcement is something that many of us do even without realising.
Let’s imagine that you have a parent who each time they call, they want to complain for the entire time, not ask how you are, maybe criticise you as well. After a while you come to dread their calls but feel caught in a bind. You try to point out their behaviour but then they guilt trip you and it descends into a chaotic discussion that you begin to regret opening your mouth. Resentment, anxiety, stress, frustration, anger, helplessness and many other unpleasant feelings build and you keep hoping that they will see the error of their ways all while continuing to do what you do.
It’s then suggested to you that instead of holding yourself hostage to these calls, that you set boundaries and take responsibility for your side of the street. You start limiting the calls so instead of being stuck to the phone for what might be hours on end, you set a time limit of 10-15 minutes and then make your exit. You in fact have a ready-made mental list that you can call up. You note the keywords and phrases that indicate that the negativity is going to a whole new level or that you’re going to be criticised and as soon as they start up, “Oh is that the time? We’ll have to continue this conversation another time.” Or as they’re hitting their stride, you intervene and say, “Sorry to interrupt but I can tell that you’re about to get into something and I have to leave in a couple of minutes”. If they ask why you answered the phone, “Well, I saw that it was you and realised that you would call until I picked up. In future if I know that I have to be somewhere, I’ll let it go straight to voicemail or I’ll tell you immediately and make arrangements to call you back another time.” Now imagine that this happens over and over again. Your stress levels start to go down and you feel less anxious and overwhelmed when you see their name come up. Maybe you screen and set a time that feels good to you for you to call back. You now know what’s coming in a call but you’re empowered. Over time, the parent picks up the subconscious message through positive reinforcement that when they let rip on the phone, that calls don’t last very long and when they engage you in conversation and even take a minute to ask how you are and listen, that there can be an actual conversation. They also pick up the subconscious message that you’re not their dumping ground or even verbal punchbag and realise that they need to find another way of ‘self-soothing’.
How do I know this? Because I’ve done it as have many others in various ways and there were never any thoughts of ‘dogs’–it was about realising that what I say/don’t say and do/don’t do, inadvertently trains people into what to expect from me. And incidentally, I would have continued to do this regardless of whether they made any adjustments. My goal is not to control other other people’s behaviour but to take command of my own and lessen the impact of other people’s behaviour on me.
Have you heard of intermittent reinforcement?
Well you might not have but if you have been in an unhealthy relationship and for instance, started and stopped No Contact, then you have actually engaged in it.
It’s where the person makes numerous attempts at contacting and engaging you and doesn’t know if it will be the 3rd, 10th, 15th, 23rd or 50th time but because you have previously responded, they think or possibly even know that you will respond at some point. That intermittent reinforcement makes things ‘exciting’ for them but it also strengthens them through inadvertent positive reinforcement. If they knew you would respond every time, they would know that they were in control and so the desire would wear off but not knowing when makes things pretty exciting.
Imagine that you were having an affair and then they called it off and then they periodically reached out to you or accepted your contact on occasion–yep, intermittent reinforcement.
I don’t suggest that you get into training any humans in the sense of trying to mold and manipulate them. It’s not about treats and rewards. But you do need to have an active response in those times that call on you to represent who you are through your words and actions (including what you don’t say and do) so that it’s clear what the boundaries are.
Speaking of boundaries, please see the site guidelines if you are unclear in any way about the community spirit here. https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/about/site-use/
And, on another note, there were some interesting comments around rewards and if you’ve read the site for long enough, you will know that I discourage people from seeking rewards for what they do and say (or don’t do and say). Do you know what that habit is called? People pleasing.
So what we have to step back and consider is this: If we think and know that it is wrong to literally treat a person like a dog and reward them when they do what we want and be punitive when they don’t, why do we base our lives around seeking reward and being punitive with ourselves when we don’t get the desired result and people don’t reward us in the way that we expect and want? Why do we even get punitive with others and feel resentful for the lack of recognition?
Natalie, sorry I got a bit of a bee in my bonnet here, and rather carried away with trying to make others see *my* point of view. I’ve read your site guidelines and will endeavour to abide by them in future.
Wow. I have two books that Natalie wrote and I have them FULL of yellow highlights and dog eared pages. This topic as well as every other was such a welcome read.
My issue: I’m not even in a relationship , but have had a VERY blurred lines friendship with my male best friend for 8 years. Yes 8 years. His g/f lives 400 miles away and he is only here a few days a week working. He isn’t happy with his relationship, never trusted her, he’s got PTSD, had a bad child hood.. u name it. He got sick a year ago and I was right there for him but he refused help. Pushed me away – blew super cold and disappeared. Claimed he wasn’t talking to anyone . He finally got cleared to work again and I figured he would be back to normal- text, call, hang out. Nope. It was a constant mindphuck with my emotions. Making me feel like I had done something wrong. I ended up getting very depressed and I had my own medical issue that put me in the emergency room one morning. (Condition I have had since I was a kid). The first person I texted when I was scared , HIM! Think I heard from him? Not a damn word. I was even more hurt. I lost my ability to drive for 6 months because of my medical issue. Out of all of my friends, he never once came over. He kept in touch but disappeared via text when I would ask him to stop by for a visit. Pissed me off. Well now I am back driving and seeing so clearly. I was there for this man during every heartbreak he had, sudden road trips, house sitting etc… when was he there for me ? If I see him in person it’s usually at the local pub where he always hugs me tight and kisses me like we were a couple. He then , in his AC, Narcissistic ways, says he will stop over finally “soon”. Bull. I’ve waited months for him to hop into his little beep beep Kia and drive here (10 minutes). I remind him I still have some of his things here and that he had asked for them. That still doesn’t make him want to come by. All I know is that I’m so glad I am not in a relationship with him. People around me say he has a lot of feelings for me and he acts like this because he can’t be with me. Oh please. Hand those people Natalie’s Books. I have done NC with this man and he guilts me. Sends texts making me feel bad because I won’t answer… it is such a draining way to be friends. I am working on my boundaries and the less I hear from him, the stronger I feel. The more I read this blog, the happier I am!!!