We were out with friends last week and because of his behaviour, I left halfway through. He keeps asking why I left but I know that he will deny said behaviour so don’t see the point of going through it again only to end up arguing. I told him that it was about me taking control of me and it was not about him.
Here is my question: Should I explain why I left? Or did I do the right thing?
Hope you can help. We have another event coming up soon and I’m planning on responding the same way if he shows inconsiderate behaviour again (which he probably will as I think it’s a habit now).
**********
One of the fastest ways to leave someone feeling as if their feelings are invalid, to crazy-make them, and to wear down their last nerve, is to have a stock answer to concerns or a particular concern that pretty much amounts to saying, “Problem? What problem? You are the problem” and then whistling and looking in the other direction.
When we are told that we are “too sensitive”, “too needy”, “making a big deal out of nothing”, that we’re a “drama queen/king”, “psycho”, “looking for trouble”, “making a fool out of ourselves”, “being insecure”, “jealous” and the list goes on, it’s a dismissal. The fact that it’s being done by someone with whom we are supposed to be sharing an intimate relationship where there’s a need to treat each other with love, care, trust and respect including seeing and hearing each other even when there’s a potential for criticism or conflict, puts us in a precarious place.
Maybe it really is just me, we wonder. We fear pushing the issue in case it breaks the relationship, not realising that denying our feelings and not addressing the problem will lead to far bigger problems.
But here’s the thing: Our problems in relationships are shared. When one wins, both win. When one loses, both lose. It’s part of being on an intimate team.
Sure, it’s not easy to self-reflect and see ourselves through another person’s eyes but it’s what’s needed in order to empathise—empathy is a critical ability in healthy people and healthy relationships. The alternative is to dismiss our loved one’s perspective and be self-aggrandising. And we shouldn’t be comfortable with our partner’s repeated discomfort nor is it a good idea to take the dismissive stance because it’s a major breach of trust.
Our partners don’t need to agree with every feeling and perception that we have but in any relationship where we want it to grow and deepen, each party needs to be open to hearing the other person out, respectfully. Crazy-making you just isn’t cool.
Now Janet, you don’t say exactly what it is that your husband does when you’re out but suffice to say that it’s big enough to drag on for two years.
Take this piece of advice and hold it close:
Tell him what you see. Tell him what you hear.
He can’t tell you that the description of what he said and did is in your imagination. He can query your interpretation but not the existence. What he can deny is your feelings because he’s not feeling them and they’re easy to run rings around. He immediately blows a hole in your argument by basically going, “I deny that I’m making you feel that”.
He’ll also reason that he’s not trying to hurt you, you know, that it’s not his intention, but when you start talking in the lingo of outcomes, suddenly your position is clear.
Let’s be real: if your husband was a feeling and perceiving kinda guy, you wouldn’t still be trying to explain your feelings to him about this issue two years down the road.
This is why I teach people to deal in facts—The Be Factual Approach, something I teach on Embrace Healthy Boundaries.
What people cannot argue with is facts or certainly how their behaviour looks through another person’s eyes. They have an opportunity to clarify their intention and meaning, or light dawns on marble head and they suddenly grasp what the issue is. It also means that you take responsibility for your side of the street where you acknowledge your part no matter how small. That might not be about the situation/event per se—it might be about owning your boundaries. Sometimes we substitute showing through boundaries with repeatedly talking about something.
Talking about feelings, while it’s something that so many of us in this world avoid, it’s actually the one thing we do during conflict and it misses the point.
Facts first, then feelings.
Describe the actions. Be specific. Be factual where possible.
Repeat what was said and try to be verbatim. If he corrects you, he can always tell you exactly what he said and meant….
I get walking out because you probably feel as if you’ve been explaining yourself until you’re blue in the face and there’s a lot to be said for positive reinforcement (exiting the events is your way of creating consequences), but aside from reaching an impasse in your relationship, is this going to change how you feel? Is this the action that’s going to allow you to feel happier and empowered?
It is important to take command of you and part of that is making yourself clear–no hinting–and following through with consistent action.
Example: “Over the past couple of years, I’ve attempted to get you to understand that some of the things that you say/do when we’re out at events feel rude, hurtful and disrespectful. As you know, I left [the event] halfway through and it was because the same thing was happening. The reason why I left is because you were ___________ [describe the specific behaviours and try to be as close to verbatim about anything that was said]. When you [summarise the overall issue, for example, flirt with others, put me down] by doing [and briefly highlight no more than 3 examples] or saying [and briefly highlight no more than 3 examples], this doesn’t feel respectful or fair. To add to this, when I have previously attempted to broach the issue with you, you refuse to acknowledge where I’m coming from, even saying that it’s in my imagination.
I love you and it’s because of this and the fact that I value our marriage, that it’s not only important for me to say this to you but also that we do our best to come together to resolve this issue. I don’t want to be walking out of events but it is what will happen if this issue continues. It’s important to me to be in a marriage where I feel acknowledged, respected, and valued, which is not how I feel at these events. If I haven’t been clear in the past about exactly what has been a source of pain for me, then I apologise. If I have misunderstood something, I am open to hearing your side of things, but what I don’t want is for you to dismiss what I’m saying. We can try to sort this out alone together or I am more than happy to go to couples counselling, but either way, we have to sort this out.”
This is also a good time to step back and ask yourself: What’s behind my choice in marrying this man? Is anything that I am experiencing here pinging on something from the past? If what he’s doing is an isolated issue, that can help you rebuild confidence in your relationship. If what he’s doing is emblematic of wider issues, then you can understand the bigger picture. It’s not your fault that he behaves as he does. What you need to take responsibility for is how you show up in your relationship and what you will do next. If what you’re experiencing here links up with something or someone from the past, it also points you to where you can heal old and present wounds by evolving in this situation.
And it’s not about whether you did the “right” thing; it’s about doing something.
No, leaving events isn’t a long-term solution but the consequences are clear. Now he knows you’re definitely not OK with something and that’s not in either of your imaginations.
Have you dealt with someone who denies the existence of an issue that keeps cropping up? Have you been in a situation where the same boundary keeps being crossed despite you expressing your hurt etc? What did you do? What would you suggest to Janet?
Each Wednesday, I help a reader to solve a dilemma. To submit a question, please email advicewednesdayAT baggagereclaim.com. If you would prefer your question to be featured on the podcast, drop a line to podcast AT baggagereclaim.com. Keep questions below 200 words. For in-depth support, book a clarity session or coaching.
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I lived with a guy for 3 and half years. I drove him to events and picked him up, usually him very drunk, and giving his mates lifts home in the process. It did not start that way, it was once a week, as the event was ten miles away, slowly it became on tuesday night, then a wednesday. A saturday and the last straw was a sunday morning, for a meeting then drinking all day afterwards. He told me that he loved his mens company he was a man’s man. I was being controlling and selfish. It went on for another six months, I was so miserable. I told him, I would not give him any more lifts at all, as it was too much. He said he wouldnt ask me to any more but come home in his own car, and just have two pints so he could drive home. He never came home. He said he slept in pub, slept at two mates houses. Fell asleep on the bus. He came back in the afternoon after another stop out all night. He said he needed a trail separation for a week and see where we were from there at that point. This was the wednesday afternoon, I went around to his mother’s house (she was not there) on the Friday morning, found him in bed with another woman.
He denied cheating on me to his family as we were separated, luckily they dont believe him. I am still in touch with his sister and sister in law, we are good friends. It hurt like hell, he called me a psycho, for being upset. He said he couldnt love me because I didnt love myself enough. Oh and the lady he slept with, which he is still sleeping with they are just good friends. Now that he has left, i have got the bills sorted. I am about 200 pounds per month better off with out him. I did not know how much a month he got in wages, i could not get it out of him.
Lesson learnt. Dont fall in love and give you heart till you know them financially, there past relationships from other people. Why his relationships have failed in the past, if you have any doubts about him dont under any circumstances live with him.
I have since learnt from his relatives that i am the fifth girl his has cheated on. I am so lucky to be out of it with just hurt feelings. Thank goodness i did not marry him i would have had a life of turmoil and anguish. He still says i was controlling, sex was boring with me, but he misses me and loves me with all his heart!! I think after four months of being apart he realises that he is well out of pocket financially and I think he wants me back for that reason alone. Lesson very positively learnt. Dont bother with someone who always blames you for every thing and it is always your fault you drove him to sleep with that girl cause you didnt come and pick me up when i too drunk to drive. Boo hoo!!!
Here’s the thing…if someone keeps ignoring what you’re saying to them and riding roughshod over your feelings, at best there is a very serious disconnect. My personal experience is horribly similar with my now ex-husband. Be very careful! Set yourself a limit as to how much you’re going to do and how much time you are going to give them to correct their behaviour and be respectful and loving towards you. If you wait too long (it’s just my personal opinion but I feel 2 years is way too long…), you risk losing your sense of self completely. This sort of behaviour wears away perniciously at your self-esteem. When you find yourself getting to the point where you no longer wish to have a conversation about their behaviour and no longer have it in you to try to explain to them why it’s unacceptable, you will know it’s the end of the relationship.
My attitude is this. It is not my job to teach a grown a** man (or woman)how to behave. All of us have enough intelligence and understanding to know that if someone tells you persistently that something hurts them, if you go ahead and keep doing it, you communicate that you have no love, affection or respect for that person. In other words, if you have communicated CLEARLY to them what the problem is and they refuse to fix it (assuming it’s easily fixable!), then there is no point in sticking around any longer. You deserve better…much better.
Thank you – I like your attitude and will adopt it too!
BermieGirl, as I have recently ended an awful 17-year marriage and am in the process of rebuilding my life, you have perfectly summed up my attitude toward involvements going forward…to the letter!
Her husband is gaslighting her, pure and simple. I think if she presents to him what you suggest above, it needs to be done in front of a third-party professional, a therapist, so that he can’t just keep dismissing what is said, and then based on his responses in that session, go from there in evaluating whether this marriage can really continue. Yes, she needs to keep standing up for herself, but he may never change even so, therefore it will also be important to look at long-term choices regarding this relationship, because if it becomes a battle of wills, with him not changing and her always leaving events, she will become exhausted over time. Being chronically gaslighted is soul-destroying, no matter what.
Save yourself the trouble of a counselor or third-party. I tried that with my spouse. Here’s what will happen. (1) Your spouse will deny everything your bring up. (2) The counselor will befriend your spouse and their jovial “I don’t ever do anything” attitude. (3) The counselor will belittle your feelings (something like oh, people sleep in pubs in Norway all the time, what’s the big deal). (4) You’ll feel worse than before you went to counseling … wasn’t the counselor supposed to help you and your spouse tackle this issue?
So, you’ll feel worse about yourself and be out $200/hour, just to end up where you are now. Either you exist in a lonely marriage with someone who just doesn’t care about how you feel or you leave. If your spouse is gaslighting (which yours is) that is the only two choices.
Gosh, I hope you don’t have children like I do … it’s so hard and depressing.
Jason, I’m sorry you’re in that position, especially with children. It’s torture to be in and a painful to end. The counseling thing must have really hurt you, I know it would have me.
The counseling scenario you described is exactly what I would be concerned about with the person in my life that is like that. It seems like a total setup – a trap.
I would advise this woman to RUN. I’m pretty sure my ex is a narcissist (judging by the horrific way he ended our marriage and his behavior throughout the divorce). He did a lot of passive aggressive things that, taken individually seemed mindor. For example, constantly leaving the toilet seat up. I would ask him – over and over and over again – to please put it down. I was raised to believe that it was a lazy and disrespectful gesture. He not only continued to do it, but assured me that it was a normal behavior in his family (his mother was outraged when I told her he said this). He would “forget” to do things that he had eagerly promised to do, and in the end started going to bars in our small town where he began to tell his new “friends” that his wife was crazy, angry, unstable, etc. Then, he would do things that would inevitably upset me and tell his pals how “crazy” I was. During this time, he would tell ME how much he “loved” me, buy me expensive presents, and do just enough nice things that I couldn’t reconcile the jerk with the “nice” guy. It took me a long time to piece it all together and I’m still sick when I think of how he behaved. I truly wish I would have left earlier. You should, too. At the very least, please find a counselor (or someone you can speak to).
Someone telling you that what you’re experiencing is all in your head is called “gaslighting” (taken from the 1944 film of the same name) and it is one of the many forms that emotional abuse can take. My advice is to be careful to get enough support for yourself on your own, from friends and preferably a good counselor, to help you stay strong and keep things clear; it’s all too easy to normalize someone else’s behaviour even if it’s hurting us, especially if we love them!
My ex husband used to go out every weekend drinking and spending lots of money and continuously denied it for months.
Eventually i went through the bank logs and wrote down what he had spend over those months each week – Which was clearly excessive.
I gently explained why I did this (to show him the financial impact) and he said he would “look at it later” then never did.
This was a deeply selfish person with too much ego to possibly have anything kind to say or give to another human being. I didn’t realise because I was in love.
I hope this isn’t the case for you and he realises he needs growth. You deserve someone who reciprocates the care and effort you clearly put into a relationship.
All the best x
Thank you L.
L, I know people like your ex, and what you feel was selfishness may have been his unwillingness to see his own weaknesses. No one likes being confronted with their own weaknesses. Especially when it is a significant other who is doing the confronting. The usual response is to deny and deflect.
We think they are unaware of their hand in the problem, we think they will “do better” when they “know better”. But it is rarely the case that telling someone their faults makes that person improve, no matter how gently they were told. It’s usually the case of shooting the messenger.
I suppose that is why change really has to come from within.
Lack of self-awareness or merely habitual behaviour is really hard to deal with. Thanks for your comment.
Great points Elgie, I havent really though of it that way. I guess i’d always put it down to irresponsiblity. Its a catch 22 really – even when you keep it to facts and take judgement out.
I was with my now ex for ten years and he in a lot of ways was a good man. But he would also flirt and generally be very controlling and disrespectful towards me especially at events. When I talked to him he would always say he wasn’t doing anything wrong because he’d never cheat. It made me feel like I was wrong somehow. Then he started going out on walks and soending lots of free time with his buddies. He adored the attention and loved to be the older mentor. He would admit he wouldn’t like it if I did the same thing but would continue.
But you know I let it go on. I didn’t deal with it because I was afraid to, and slowly it got worse and worse and the disrespect began to take over more and more of our relationship, and he became more and more controlling, and I lost more and more of myself. It was so hard leaving because we lived in a community we’d built together. By the time I did finally leave I had lost a good bit of my self esteem, and felt that there must be something somehow wrong with me that he cared so little about how he treated me. when I did finally leave, he would tell me how much he loved and missed me, and then completely ignore and disrespect me. When I finally decided that enough was enough was when I found out that he had been sleeping with a woman who he admitted that he was ‘working on a relationship with’ at the same time he told me he loved me and missed me and wanted to work on our relationship, and that he’d like to take a vacation together sometime to see if we could fix our issues. He could not admit there might be anything wrong there. I finally did what I should have from the beginning and went no contact. I did find out through a mutual friend that he moved in with this woman and her 7 year old daughter, 6 weeks after they had met. Well, its been a year and there are still some days that are hard, but I finally feel I’m getting back who I am, and am SO thankful I did leave, but am still a bit ashamed that it took so long. I am learning why I did this, and what I need to do to take care of myself, and why I gave so much of myself to someone who cared so little. It can be done and friends and this website are the main things that have helped- that and deciding that I did deserve better than what I’d been getting.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I have left things too long as well. I think it’s because I was hoping that things would get better by themselves, but, of course, nothing does without action. I am glad that things are getting better for you.
Yeah I know what you mean. I kept hoping if I didn’t cause more hassle, things would get better, but ended up losing more and more of myself and wondering why I felt so confused all the time. The hardest part has been coming to terms with how deeply I was denying the problems and kept trying to see him and our relationship through the lenses of how I thought it was in the first half. But when I looked hard I could see that I should have seen the red flags from the beginning, but didn’t know what to look for. Now, I’m trying hard to see the ways I can be healthier and more available myself, and how to recognize potential problems, and why I let myself stay in a relationship with a smart, charismatic, fun, controlling unavailable man. It doesn’t take all the sting out, but helps me feel less helpless and hopeless about things. Whatever you choose to do try to at least know the reasons you are doing it and then stick to it.
I have similar problem with parents and my therapist taught me a very simple way of communicating the problem:
1. When you do….
2. I feel…
3. I need…
For example: when you tell me for the fifth time that I have to make sure I don’t drink anything that I’ve left unattended, I feel as if I was an incompetent child or a complete imbecile who couldn’t get it the first time. I need you to stop telling me this.
The same then goes if they dismiss it by saying that I shouldn’t be so sensitive, that they ar just affraid.: When you are saying, that I’m too sensitive, I feel like my feelings and perspective doesn’t matter, I need you to realize that it does and do what I’ve asked you to do.
And over and over again. As it is so simple, it helps with keeping the control andnot giving in to the manipulation.
I know how hard it can be to break a certain circle or habit. I found that the simpler the method, the easier it is for me to use it every time.
Keep fighting for yourself, you matter! Good luck. 🙂
Thank you Lavia.
The thing is that he denies that he’s done anything so doesn’t see that there’s anything to discuss. However, I will try saying that it is my perspective and take it from there.
I have a good friend who has problems with himself and his girlfriends, as he honestly does not understand what is wrong and what they need. It is not denying the problems, he honestly does not understand thes. So I guess being factual and keeping it simple as Nat and my therapist are saying, could be the way. I think it is for you to find out, if he simply doesn’t understand what is the problem or he just doesn’t care enough. Good luck!
This. The guy who gave her the black eye also told her she was too insecure and imagining things.
https://www.facebook.com/HigherPerspective/videos/1277491235616526/?pnref=story
Thank you all for your advice.
I am not clear though, on what my response should be when he point-blank denies his behaviour. Do I just nod and accept it or do I tell him that’s exactly what he did do, only for him to deny it again? It just seems like one big circular pattern to me.
When I have left an event, he comes home, groans and says ‘What have I done now?’ I want to break this pattern so feel that telling him ‘it’s not you but me’ is less painful.
Hi Janet, and I’m sorry you are in this situation.
I was married to a man like this for several years. It didn’t start that way – it was a gradual insidious pattern of behaviour on his part that chipped away at my self-esteem. The snide remarks, the sneers, the telling me I was unstable etc.etc. took their toll and I suffered with anxiety & depression.
All my instincts were telling me that it was so wrong and yet I blamed in on my job, which I didn’t like. I was becoming unable to trust my own reality.
Then he started cheating (unbeknown to me) and during that time he ramped up his passive/aggressive behaviour. One day he said something particularly nasty and I just blew my stack. I told him that if this was the future with him then I wanted none of it and I wanted a divorce.
He said in a sad voice – get this – that my words had killed something inside him and he didn’t love me any more !!!
I said “OK, when are you leaving?” He looked horrified and rushed out of the house ( to see his affair partner, as it turned out)
I won’t bore you with the whole sad story but I’m afraid, like I was, you’re on a hiding to nothing.
If your husband, like mine, cannot or will not, take responsibility for his hurtful comments there is nothing you can do except remove yourself from the situation.
Janet,
Having read through the comments and your question, I think one of the posters has the right idea.
If he denies it again, perhaps one avenue you could take is to look him straight in the eye and say “I need you to sit down at the kitchen table with me [or some other neutral territory] and just listen for 5 minutes without interrupting”.
I would use Nat’s excellent guideline above and get your thoughts completely aligned in advance. Tell him in short, concise chunks. If he can’t stop himself from interrupting, state clearly that “I need you to listen to me for another couple of minutes” on repeat. Don’t get angry, don’t walk away, just persevere. Maybe you’ll get through and can provoke a proper discussion and find a way forward.
However if he can’t even spare you 5 minutes to listen to you without interrupting or getting angry when you ask, I’m afraid – as an outsider looking in – I would wonder what ties were binding you to him.
Hi Janet, from experience I’d say you’re giving the situations too much attention and consequently overreacting. Simply say ‘I don’t appreciate that’ whether he acknowledges it or not, and keep enjoying the function and your life in general. Facts over feelings, as Natalie said.
Wow, another very timely article in my case.
My boyfriend has a panic disorder. When triggered he basically loses his mind, directs his anger toward me, and spouts some pretty hurtful stuff. (No name calling, mind you, but let’s not get into the details.)
Now, this is an issue. An even worse issue, however, is that, once he’s calmed down and I confront him about his hurtful behavior and tell him he needs to stop. His argument runs along the lines of, “If you hadn’t said, done, eye rolled, questioned me like this, I wouldn’t have become that way.” Not cool, and needless to say, that is an abuser’s line of arguing.
Ok, fast forward a few fairly painful months of fighting about this, we have both had to take a step back and see how we can save this relationship. And what we did was this: Preambled by the fact that this was MY experience and thus NOT the FULL and END of the truth, I read him a list of “I often feel that you xyz” statements. Like, “I often feel that I can’t voice criticism without being criticized in return.” Etc. Followed by a few bullet points on how this makes me “feel.” “Unloved, dismissed, etc.”
I purposefully refrained from labeling him or his character in any way. It’s not my place to diagnose.
He wasn’t allowed to speak while I read him these bullet points. I read them calmly and reminded him often that this is MY perspective. For the first time, he calmly and collectedly acknowledged that he could, yes, somehow follow my logic on these points, that he could see how I could potentially feel that way. A good start! Of course, he had his turn, too. And surprisingly, his points echoed many of mine. I too found myself acknowledging some of the things he’s mentioned many times before, but I refused to see out of sheer anger over his disproportionate and hurtful response to me. It wasn’t easy, and it was hard at times not to fall back into reactionary defense mode, but we got through it.
The end result was that we now have a very strict “protocol” in place for when this problem arises. It consists of me pulling the plug on the conversation THE MINUTE I see him going out of bounds (no arguing, defending, blaming, just end of conversation.) He is then aware, that there will be no further discussion until he acknowledges and apologizes. I, in turn, actually do need to check myself where I am being dismissive of his feelings and/or state of mind, when I am being cold or unloving. NOT, mind you, to avoid him getting abusive, but to be a respectful and engaged partner for him in return. There are many more points in this protocol, very specific to our case, but we hashed it out in detail, and in ways we both feel are respectful and safe.
Of course, all this only works because I have learned that when he goes off the rails, it’s not him who is speaking but someone else (something he is in therapy for, PTSD, to be exact.)
Long story short, I have learned that, if I can sincerely say that I am with a goodhearted, non-manipulative man who tries hard, I too have to get off of my self-defensive high road and develop healthy and well-boundaries empathy for the origin of some, maybe even at times unacceptable behavior. Something has always not sat right in hearing even a second of “excuse” for unacceptable behavior, but this process has helped me learn what healthy limits and boundaries actually mean – and it ain’t as cut and dried as I’m right and you’re wrong. (except for extreme verbal and emotional abuse, as well as physical abuse, and many other things, of course. But that goes without saying.)
This has just been my experience, and I don’t know how well it can be applied to others, especially to partners resistant to even hearing your perspective. (In that case, I guess it’s either get out or check your self worth at the door.) But maybe this helps or people have had similar experiences they would like to share.
I would also like to add that we all need a certain a-ha moment to understand that the way we have communicated or have been communicated with by certain family members, friends, or previous relationships is not just “not ok,””a bit out of line,” “or uncool but not a big deal,” but downright abusive to other people, including our new partners. I think it’s worth shining some light on these blind spots in a relationship rather than calling it quits immediately. But this takes two, of course.
His persistence in not acknowledging this “thing” he does that hurts her is creating a cancerous tumor in their marriage. It will subtract from her good feelings about him, it will diminish her sexual desire for him, it will make her less willing to give of herself to him.
If she is a doormat and just accepts his behavior in the name of “unconditional love”, then she will try to paper over the hurt inside and pretend things are OK, but that tumor will just get bigger and bigger, until it kills the marriage and maybe her too, on the inside.
The fact that he seems to have no clue that his behavior will severely affect the union says that he has no concept of the “we” part in a marriage. Sounds like he is a “you do you, I’ll do me” kind of guy, which creates more of a business-type marriage than an emotional union. An emotionally unsatisfying Functional Marriage.
I would do the same thing, meaning, I would leave the event. I applaud her for drawing her line. I’m not sure I am mature enough to want to “discuss” my hurt so rationally. I’ve told you how I felt, more than once, and you have shown me that you intend to ignore my concern. What is there to discuss? The fact that you are continuing to dole out unacceptable behavior is the end of our relationship.
I had a boyfriend who seemed eager to tell me how pretty women were that he’d seen throughout his day. Women he’d seen when we weren’t together. I found that odd, he could have told me the story without mentioning their beauty. I told him I did not like hearing about how beautiful these women were so would he just tell the story and leave out those parts. A little while later he did it again. I just got quiet, and made up in my mind that this was the beginning of the end for me and this man. And I don’t know whether he picked up on the vibe, but suddenly, he stopped doing it. And it made me feel so much safer with him. I felt he really cared for me, because he listened to my pain and willingly adjusted. It was great. I know that man loved me.
I am trying to remember a time that anyone asked me to stop doing a behavior that offended them. Can’t think of one, but since I am a recovering people-pleaser, maybe that is why.
I did once treat that good boyfriend quite terribly at a party, it was immaturity on my part, and I do remember when we got back to the car he angrily said to me “Don’t you EVER do that to me again!” I knew inside that he was right, I had behaved abominably. So it’s hard for me to believe that a person is truly unaware when they are being an a$$hole.
And OT to Erin: I love old movies. Didja know that the 1944 Gaslight is a remake of the 1940’s British film Gaslight – and it is just as great and maybe even better!
Janet,
I could really relate to your problem. I have gone through this situation several times with my partnerships and I finally realized I needed to get the person who can’t hear, see or acknowledge me to see, hear and acknowledge me. I was invisible in childhood. I simply disappeared behind my own role of caretaker and excellent student. Since there was nothing wrong, my parents just let me be the oldest daughter who did everything well. When and if I was noticed by my father it was to belittle or damage or hit me so I had a big survival investment in staying invisible. Thus, I had a childhood need to get that crazy-maker to make sense, to hear me, to even acknowledge me AT ALL.
I share this because there is a reason you are in this relationship. Other wise people have told you strategies and how to do boundaries, but in my experience, you will just pick another man like this if you leave before you figure out the lesson. In my path through this galling and baffling behavior, I gradually found I could detach and not take the blame for the gaslighting but, honestly, endurance is not the point to life. Happiness is. My last partner was so good at gaslighting that I began to doubt my sanity and had to take a year to read such books as “The Psychopath Nextdoor” to truly understand the need to mess with another human so cruelly. In the process of unraveling my Narcissist’s behavior I realized that my father was the original psychopath/narcissist. It was a huge “aha!” and has been having repercussions all through my life as I have many such people in my life. I call it having Vampire Glasses: I can see them now.
My only advice (beyond looking to the root of this for yourself) is to say very little. These people are excellent at manipulating and using your own honor and need to relate against you. I learned a lovely “trick” to use whenever the denial begins. “Nevertheless.” Use that word. “Nevertheless, I feel hurt.” There will be all the words, the excuses, or worse, the total blanket of denial. “Nevertheless, I refuse to be treated this way.” “Nevertheless, I know what disrespect is and I am not going to take any more.”
Ironically, I found that there was no winning the game. To me there was a great relief in finally admitting that to myself. “This is a game. He has made all the rules. I can’t win. So, I am not going to play.” In my childhood, I could not leave. But as an adult, I can. So can you.
One final irony. My husband, who had been through therapy and was excellent at the “therapy game” (very charming as Narcissists can be). He used to completely baffle me by saying, “I acknowledge you,” after I’d share something. This confused me! He acknowledged me but nothing changed and nothing was ever admitted to or worked on. All I got was “acknowledgement.” Finally, after five years of this and cheating, etc… I had one of those comedic moments that defined our relationship. After he said, “I acknowledge you. ” I smiled and said, “I acknowledge that you acknowledge me.” LOL! Six months later I was gone.
Thank you for sharing this, Laura.
I do like the idea of using the word ‘nevertheless’ as I feel as if I have talked this to death. I will use it next time xx
So helpful, Laura. I was an invisible child (and now adult) too. Thank you! I need to read that book! 🙂
(I’m sorry this comment shows up as a reply to your comment, but somehow I can’t find a comment-button directly to this post. This is my first post on here too, so I’m still figuring things out.)
First off, long-time lurker here. For the first time I feel like I should contribute something, because although baggagereclaim is incredibly helpful, informative and just overall amazing, I haven’t experienced most of the things Natalie writes about that often… I’ve come across it with strangers, observed it on boyfriends of friends of mine, etc, but that’s pretty much it. But this post exactly describes my ex. And again, that’s a first time. I always knew he was a jerk and possibly a narcissist and here we are, talking about narcissists or the narcissistically inclined or just overall jerks, but I’ve never read a post on here that described my ex’s shady behaviour. This is spot on! (Unfortunately.)
And now to you, Janet… I don’t wanna scare you or anything, but my personal advice to you would be run. Run as fast and as far as you can.
I see that his gaslighting occurs “only” on events, completely different to my ex, who did it pretty much everywhere… and I don’t know your situation in exact detail, and I’m only 23, but believe me, I can see through people. I know when they mean harm. I made a lot of people aware of other people’s shady behaviour in my lifetime. See, when I met him, he was a sweet guy at first. Then problems started to occur – I confronted him with nasty things he did or said, but he was always doing it very subtle – he would deny it and say it didn’t happen. I would come back with facts, he would deny facts. I would tell him he can’t deny facts right in front of him, cause that’s ludicrious. Unfortunately, at that time, I already moved into his appartement, mostly for financial reasons – and as soon as he realized I couldn’t make a move he showed his true face. I tried to explain to him calmly what it was that I found offensive, but he all dismissed it. I tried different strategies: Confront him with facts only. Didn’t work. I tried the infamous “I feel like XY when you do YX, please stop”. Didn’t work either. Then I took him to my therapist. As soon as he realized, that she wouldnt accept the way he treated me, he started a fight about something off topic and ran away. His friends helped gaslighting me. And although I put up boundaries, his behaviour got worse of the next six month. The more I called him out on his BS, the more he tried to hurt me. But staying silent wasn’t an option of course. I was incredibly trained after only a month. It felt like he sucked the life right out of me. At the end he threw me out of his appartement because I wouldn’t do what he wanted me to do. And I didn’t even try to talk to him – because I had already done it enough. And instead of trying to see things from my perspective, he would get even more controlling (calling me 12 times when I was grocery shopping for 2 hours. Crazy). I was at that point where I had done and tried literally everything I could think of (and that was a hell of a lot). I had nowhere to go of course (if I had had a place to stay somewhere else, I’d have packed my things after the first week, seriously) and I was scared about what would happen now. But I figured I was saver on the streets now than in his home, because he got incredibly aggressive at the end. Now I’m not saying that your husband’s going to be as aggressive as he was. I’m just trying to warn you. It doesn’t have to, but it may get worse and he’s already sucked so much life out of you, that you feel like you can’t bring up some energy to talk about the issues you’re having. And yes, his behaviour is not only disrespectful, that he’s dismissing your issues, although you made it clear how you feel about it, means he lacks empathy – and that’s a big red flag up there. At some point you can’t do the talk any longer, you have to do the walk. And get yourself out of there.
As for me – I went to a homeless shelter that day. But after half an hour I left. They wanted to know how I got homeless and I told them about my ex. Actually I broke down crying. He had chipped away so much of my self-esteem, I felt so exhausted, angry and was scared about the future, of course. After I told him my story he called up someone else. He wanted me to repeat the story for them, I did. And then they said they could give me a place to stay – in a house for abused women. Thank God things like these exist. They welcomed me with open arms and listened to the whole story. In the end the social worker there said to me that the story of a boyfriend/husband that turns into a monster over time is something they’ve heard a million times before. It’s not unusual. And that most wait too long for the man to change, and in the end, most woman feel completely exhausted and drained from all the crazy-making and gaslighting. We should leave after we’ve seen the first red flag, even when there are a few doubts who is in the right here exactly, just because – it’s better to be safe than sorry. And 98 percent of the time, when you feel like your partner is not treating you fair, it is, because they aren’t treating you fair.
I’m sorry that this became so long. And please excuse my English, it’s not my mother tongue.
“Other wise people have told you strategies and how to do boundaries, but in my experience, you will just pick another man like this if you leave before you figure out the lesson.”
I think this is sage advice Laura.
After I divorced my passive-aggressive, verbally abusive husband I took time-out from relationships and did some work on myself. I began to understand my FOO issues and how to unravel them.
My future relationships didn’t always work out, but they were more fulfilling for me, and if a guy showed signs of any disrespect, or any other cr@p they never even got of the ground!
One thing always baffles me though. My ex-husband married his AP and they have been together over 20 years.
I wonder what it is about her personality that has enabled her to tolerate his negative behaviour for so long ?
Most likely she is just a very submissive person. I know someone – we used to be pretty close – who married a real psychopath (he’s the worst human being I’ve ever encountered), but whatever he does to her, she stays with him. She obviously is co-dependent… I mean she’s constantly putting herself down… it’s sad. But she is no angel herself. I think one of the reasons she stays with him is his money. He earns quite a lot. She doesn’t have to pay for anything, she’s living rent-free in a big house, doesn’t have to work, he pays a lot of treatments for her, like pedicure, massages, hairsalon, though I think she doesn’t get that he is only spending money on her so she overlooks all the abuse. In her world things are black and white… there’s no grey.
Although I see she is a gold-digger in a way, I can’t wrap my head around how someone can cope with such heavy abuse, only because she recieves fancy things afterwards??? What? I can’t see the things he buys for her canceling out all the abuse she gets from him. In fact such people like her shock me a bit.
Well, just some thoughts on this…
LauraG – you should write a book. A lot of people need information like this. Don’t get me wrong Natalie talks about this too but you put it really well. We have had a similar life path. I think I have pretty much stopped the pattern of attracting people who treat me as if I’m invisible. Getting to the original wound that we keep replaying and healing that really is the only way to stop this pattern. Thanks for your words.
That, to me, needing to stop finding people who treat us as if we are invisible, is powerful. I was invisible growing up, and have always been the behind the scenes helper in my relationships. I’ve known this but that is a great reminder to keep trying to dig those roots up, or they just keep resprouting.
Janet,
Here is a link to a podcast that may be of use help. I recently discovered this site from another forum. Her podcasts are great. They are short but very good.
This is one is called The Manual and is about when people do not behave how we expect and why it upsets us.
https://thelifecoachschool.com/11/
And this one is about boundaries. It sounds like you have set one by leaving when your husband behaves in a way to upset you.
https://thelifecoachschool.com/12/
Thanks for the clips. The first one won’t help me because he denies doing anything therefore he does not have a perspective. The second one, on boundaries, is useful as I am trying to enforce them. Unfortunately I can only think of leaving events when he is disrespectful. I wish there was some other action I could take.
Excellent resource, thank you for sharing it!
I was in a long term marriage with a man that refused to listen to or address any issues in our relationship. He ignored, minimized, blamed, justified, and played the victim. He often showed contempt and often “forgot” things that were important to me and our family I don’t remember him saying he was sorry for anything or that we did any mutual problem solving. We went to lots of therapy because I believed the marriage was worth saving and I assumed he did too. It was so hard for me to accept that he didn’t care enough.
Two therapists gave us a similar protocol to use when conflict arose. The first time we tried it after lots of practice in the therapist’s office, he said I was doing it wrong so instead of arguing I suggested we go back for a refresher and called for an appt. I was right but he then refused to do it anyway, saying it was all about me and he never got his turn. This was a man who never said what was bothering him even after lots of support from me and various therapists to say what he was feeling.
In the early years I accepted his justifications, was so careful of my words and tone, showed so my support and encouragement, blah blah until it was clear he felt entitled and didn’t think he had any problems.
In relationships like this there are often two choices- speak up and take a lot of flak and the slow wearing down of your energy and well being or suck it up and lose your self esteem, hope and well being. Either way is destructive for you.
BTW, The fact based approach resulted in a csscade of blaming, deflecting, threatening, cajoling and then raging when I didn’t react with my emotions. It infuriated him when I didn’t fall apart. But what kind of marriage is this – with these kind of dynamics??
It all was a waste of my precious time and life force. The man is showing you who he is and I am thinking that there must be other red flags in the relationship too.
Sure, give people a chance to step up to the plate if there is a relationship at stake but maybe you are betting on potential that isn’t there. Natalie also has a good post on protecting your investment in a relationship and why we stay too long. Hugs!
Janet I was in a 3 year relationship with a man who would do the same thing in terms of denying the behavior. For example, we would have a conversation and come to an agreement or understanding on something and then later he would deny that the conversation itself had taken place. Or I would call him out on certain behavior and he would simply ignore me as if I had not spoken. It’s very difficult to be in a relationship like this. I eventually realized that he was gaslighting me and was emotionally abusive in other ways as well. He was also extremely passive aggressive which played into that. I’m sorry to say I never did figure out how to respond to his denials. I left the relationship and am much happier now. Since you’re married to him I would suggest going to counseling or therapy, just you alone. If he is willing to go to couples counseling then do that too but have your own therapist. I don’t know if this will help you but it helped me to write down these instances and even to write down our conversations so that later on when he denied that they took place I could go back and see the documentation just to verify for myself that I was not crazy. I also started looking into mini tape recorders to keep in my purse to record all of our conversations but then it occurred to me that if I was seriously thinking about doing that then that was a clear sign to me that I needed to leave the relationship. Best of luck, let us know how it turns out.
Thanks Sallysue. I have thought of filming to prove my point but then thought that it is up to me to control me, plus that is going too far. I really am not sure what my next steps should be.
I love the comments here….really helpful to me to remind me why I left after far too long. The difficulty always is that these guys offer crumbs, that there are sometimes happ(ier) times that help us convince ourselves to stay and try to work on things. It is a question of loving ourselves and understanding that we are worth more and that if have to write down what they said (done that!) or tape record sessions…it is already a goner. Janet, I admire you because you acted but that is going really far to bring home a point about behaviour that shows fundamental stone-walling, disrespect and lack of empathy.
I agree, the comments are really helpful.
Espresso, I can’t think of what else to to do other than opt out of these situations. I’ve talked it to death and he still denies it so it’s all I can ‘do’. I am stuck.
The problem I think is that we need validation. One day you will stop needing validation from him. Your feelings will be your feelings. You won’t need him to acknowledge them. You won’t need the last word. You won’t needdddd to make him understand. I said ‘neeedddddd’ because we often feel this almost desperate urge to make them understand because we believe that we can get reasonable behaviour out of them. This is our first mistake. You know that he won’t be reasonable.
My ex did this. He was very passive aggressive. Living with him was like being with an amnesiac – he’d pretend a conversation from five minutes ago didn’t happen. This is not a good person.
If your bf says ‘groan, what did I do this time’ – he’s not behaving like an adult. He wants a smack down so he can resent you for it. There’s no point starting with ‘when you x, I feel y’. I think it’s better to say ‘why do you think that’. Let him dig a hole with his own words. Don’t give him the satisfaction. If he says ‘nothing makes me think that’, then you say ‘well there you go then’ or ‘you must be right’. Cut off his source of satisfaction at the smack down.
But what happens when both partners are playing this inauthentic game? There’s no relationship. So if one of your few options is a game which indicates the end of the relationship you should try it on for size. What happens when you just let go? You’re not angry, you’re disappointed as his jerk behaviour. You’re out of the situation, you don’t react you are just an observer. Every piece of info about him is just info to help you decide when to trust him. Eventually he’ll either wise up, or you will. Right now you’re both playing this game – you need to step out of the game.
The game is;
He does x
You get angry and or try to reason, explain, coax like a parent with spinach
He says I never get pizza and you’re not the boss of me
Repeat cycle.
End the game. Or get mad. Next time don’t walk out. Say – you’re a jackass and you’re being a jackass. If he says I’m not. You say yes you’re a jackass. Great now everyone is a baby. At least he’s not getting the satisfaction of giving you the middle finger while you get all earnest in your parental explanatory mode.
Suki,
Your post is very incisive.
My exH refused to do anything to help about the house.
I tried everything.
I tried to reason with him, using the “when you do this I feel” line. The response “I’m not responsible for your feelings”.
I tried nagging.
Response ” The more you ask me to do it the more I won’t do it”.
I tried throwing a paddy, shouting etc.
Response – he called me a bad-tempered b**** and walked away. Then I got the silent treatment for 2 days.
My mistake was not accepting that he was a lazy, entitled, man-child and wasting energy trying to change that.
If I’d accepted the above then I would have had 2 choices –
to either accept the situation and continue to pick up after him, or to leave the situation.
So we go back to the old adage “when people show you who they are, believe them”……
Yes, I can identify with this. Maybe I just have to accept that this is the way it’s going to be.
Thanks for posting. I think that you are absolutely right, about validation, about me wanting him to understand so that he will behave better – all of it.
I learned that despite evidence to the contrary and lots of therapeutic input as well as effort, support, blah blah from me, my ex never felt he needed to change anything because he never felt he was wrong.
So I don’t think there is a workable strategy with this kind of person, sorry to say, because for me there was so much at stake and so many people got hurt but mainly me and our children.
Sadly, I think you may be right.
Being treated in a dismissive, belittling way, PARTICULARLY when you are trying to address a chronic problem with the relationship, is blatantly disrespectful and accordingly unacceptable. If you have talked this to death for over two years as you stated further upthread and have resorted to leaving events midway through and he STILL won’t make the effort to even try to resolve the problem, the relationship sounds kaput to me. There is no point in burning up our precious time and vital energy trying to get people to acknowledge and respect our position on issues when they have clearly and repeatedly expressed a lack of intention of doing any such thing.
I would recommend getting out of it before it gets increasingly complicated and expensive to do so. Who knows? Maybe he might get a little more attentive once he realizes he stands a real possibility of losing you.
I just liberated myself from a bad marriage and while I miss the intimacy and certain aspects of the relationship, I can’t believe how much happier and better off I am without that constant toxic stress eating away at me. My ex was similar to what Espresso described above in that he did not think he was doing anything wrong. I am sure he still maintains to this day that the first time he went to jail for assaulting me (and more recently when he upped the ante and tried to murder me), he was perfectly blameless, meaning, he sincerely believes that is an acceptable way to treat people! Indeed, there is no workable strategy with such types other than “Sayonara!”.
You are right, Brenda. I have re-read your first paragraph several times, it is spot-on. Maybe he sees my actions as empty. I should up the ante.
If you are going to up the ante, what I would recommend if you are indeed beginning to think in terms of cutting your losses and leaving that losing battle is this: Set your intention clearly, and then closely examine your thoughts and actions over a period of time to evaluate whether they support or undermine your intention. Doing so reveals the behaviours we subconsciously engage in that perpetuate the undesirable conditions that keep us stuck. It is extremely helpful to write this stuff down. Keep a journal and maybe even set up a calendar reminder with your intention written on it that keeps popping up during the day to help you stay focused on the process of fulfilling it.
Also write down a detailed plan complete with a timeline with approximate dates on how you are going to go about leaving, that includes the various concrete steps you need to take, i.e., start researching and get an idea of what will be involved, start the conversation about it, download the forms and look at them to see what documents you will need to assemble and start getting them together, seek legal counsel if necessary, begin saving money especially for this purpose, start planning which of your belongings are worth bringing with you and what to sell off or donate when you move out if it comes to that. Maybe even just start packing. That alone might well shock him into improving his listening skills.
Make a point of taking at least one specific action per week. That will move the process along. If you amass a “support team” of trusted close friends and family members to encourage you in pursuing your liberation, that can be very helpful too. That’s how I got through the process of leaving my husband and artistic/business partner of 17 years. Very best wishes to you!
Thank you Brenda. This is really useful advice.
Hi. I can’t believe I’m reading this. I just, literally, went through this last month and it was AWFUL. I found this article because I was desperately searching for answers and I’m not sure when the PTSD is going to wear off. I had been dating my bf for about 7 months, after about 4, we decided to move in together because he was moving here from another State (I know, I know…always wait longer…you don’t know someone). As soon as we signed a lease, we left to visit his home state, went out to dinner and I saw it for the first time: I saw him STARING and I mean STARING at this woman at the bar. It went on and on and on and it was like he was in a trance. I never saw him do it before and I thought I was seeing things because it was just so surreal to me. So, when we got home, I, super hurt, talked to him about it. Not only did he deny it, but he went completely mental: screaming, ripping out his hair, crying, the works. Naturally, I was embarrassed. It was the first time I saw him lose his mind and I thought, for sure, due to the reaction I got, I MUST’VE been seeing things. I apologized profusely and was very embarrassed. From that time on, every single time we went out he was staring/leering at women. I mean, if we were at a concert for an hour, he’d pick someone out and just stare for the entire time we were there. It was like I wasn’t there. He’d even fix his seat to get a better look and think I didn’t notice. It got to the point – and this is SAD – that I couldn’t go to the grocery store with him, the bank, for a walk because I was so petrified of watching him staring at whatever woman he chose to stare at. I was sick to my stomach and baffled. I would approach him and he’d go crazy, “What are you talking about? Why are you doing this to us? I love you, what is wrong with you?” I was livid, sad, scared and absolutely depressed. I would scream back and try to prove my point, but nothing worked as he just denied and denied. So, there I was, I had just moved out of my own great apartment to live in a new apartment with him and he’s gaslighting me like cRAZy! I had stomachaches 24/7. I mean, the worst kind of stomachaches. I lost 10 pounds, had shaking hands, the works….I was a mess. Being denied and lied to is just awful; it’s a terrible feeling. I couldn’t figure out if he really didn’t see he was doing it or what. Soon, I got tired of trying to figure it all out. Side note: his enabling therapist had said that I had “delusional jealousy.” Mind you, I was the one who didn’t want to display our relationship on FB or anything….I think if I were jealous, I would want that pasted all over the place. It was nuts. His outbursts over this escalated to the point that he punched our big, barn door closet door off the hinges and then punched a door not even an inch from my head and clapped his hands in front of my face so close to my nose. The message then became clear: “I can hit you if you don’t stop.” I figured that we now were getting into the abuse realm and it was time to go. I had put up with about 5 months of this questioning myself, having him go into tirades and deny it but I was not going to be silenced by someone’s fists. So, he insisted on couples therapy and, without letting on, I booked an appointment with my plan in place. When we got in there he told about how much he loved me, the whole soulmate thing, etc. and then said, “And, in March, she started “seeing things.” Intrigued, the therapist asked me what I was seeing. I told her everything. She wasn’t buying him at all. Finally, validation. When she asked why we came there, he went on and on about how I needed help, he’s in love with me but I have this “delusional jealousy.” When it was my time? I simply said, “I need XXX to leave the apartment for a month so that I may get my own place. He is a grown man, he deserves to be able to look at women all he wants, but not with me around anymore. I deserve a man who goes out with me and focuses his attention on me, our conversation and our night out. I’d like to get married again and don’t have time to waste here. I’d like to bow out gracefully. Thank you.” He sat there in utter shock, she sat there in utter shock and she gave me a look like, “Good for you.” He left for a month, sent texts like crazy, but I never saw him again. He tried getting my address to see one another, but I completely cut him off. Trust me, it’s hard. I didn’t leave because I fell out of love, I HAD to leave for my own self-respect. If you can’t be heard in a relationship, then it’s not balanced and that is not fair. Honestly, I was married for 8.5 to a gaslighter…it only destroys you, Janet. You have to see if holding back who you are and what you feel is worth the relationship.
Thanks for posting, Scarlett. You have been through a tough time and I really identified with your story. That denial thing is very powerful and scary.
I am glad you found the strength to move on. You will be my role model! xx
Wow Scarlett, thats really chilling. Its classic gas lighting and yes its like PTSD. Its that weird sort of behavior where you do start questioning yourself, like maybe I am seeing things. And all that restrained, not so restrained, violence – that is a very unhealthy situation. Glad you got out, very brave to be able to manage that process. I think sometimes the logistics (of leases etc) keep us trapped. And if someone reacts in that way to anything, with violence, and yelling, and crying (seriously wth!) thats not a safe space to be in. You don’t have to be proven right to get out of a relationship. You don’t need your reasons to get out to be validated in order to get out. You don’t need to understand the other persons motivations in order to leave.
Suki – thanks. You have NO idea how difficult it was to deal with the logistics of moving out. It was a nightmare and cost me thousands of dollars. I only had less than a month to be out of “his” apartment and I was having panic attacks each day…while apartment shopping. Horrible. The truth is that the gaslighting was making me sick (as it does) and I couldn’t stand feeling so deceived anymore (even tho several therapists think he wasn’t aware he was doing it but he was trying to get them to notice/see him). Just bad. I know A LOT of people who would’ve felt like they had to stay, but I had to respect and love myself more. I felt like I was dying inside.
Hi all! I’ve never posted but this drove me b/c I am SO SAD to see so many women have gone through this type of thing — it’s like an epidemic. Are we all, in fact, dating the very same guy? Who never changes or grows, just leaves a legacy of wreckage from one woman to the next? Just to backcheck, mine have been named: Eric, Thomas, Harold. . .and many others now blocked from my consciousness. *sigh*
Well, my thoughts and feelings (kind of off the top of my head are):
1) I think it stems from what I call “daddy issues” — either the physical or emotional absence of proper treatment (love, care, trust respect) from the opposite sex parent
2) From my personal experience someone denying your reality is NOT a small thing. It is total erasure, which is not acceptable in a close relationship. Not even a distant one! I think someone saying or at least making an effort == along the lines of, “Apparently you are bothered by something I don’t find bothersome. Would you help me understand so I can work on it and make you more comfortable when we’re out together at these events?” is reasonable. Saying, insisting over the course of 2 years ain’t nothing happening babe?? Strikes me as odd.
3) I’ve learned to beware of men who can’t express feelings and needs. Those type of men tend not to (SURPRISE!) acknowledge feelings and needs in others. It’s a form or symptom of narcisscism, lack of empathy, etc. etc. I think. People get into relationships for all types of reasons — and lots of relationships involve playing roles, rather than, you know — relating. Some men want to provide and protect and avoid emotions like the plague — I’ll be the big strong man, you be the little woman type role playing. If a woman goes along with that and then all of a sudden makes emotional business a requirement of the relationship only AFTER she feels he has wronged her but she doesn’t speak up otherwise about her feelings and needs — well. He’s more than likely to act out — e.g. like the deal they originally made (which wasn’t based on exchanging emotions and working out issues) has been broken. And, in fact, it has.
4) Related to above — I recently talked to a new man on the phone for 2 hours. We had not(yet, ever) met in person — only emails prior. What struck me as a headscratcher(to this day) is not ONCE during that time did he share or relate — to ME. The me-ness of me below the surface. It was all very charming, very intellectual, even interesting — but I found it VERY STRANGE that not once in all that time even when I shared something very non-committal — did he ask anything remotely relating to my feelings. Such follow up questions as “Really, did you enjoy that?” or “Oh that’s interesting, what made you want to do XYZ?” or “Wow, you like to dance, what kind of music do you like?” or “Did you like the college you went to?” — strike me as the way people get to know each other on a minimal, basic level. The absence of that after about the 1st hour or so — graciously accounting for any nervousness, etc. — told me kind of in my gut that this was not a person who cared about my feelings and that should we get involved, this would probably be the touchstone. I’d end up being hurt all the time by SOMEthing. And guess what? Never heard from that guy again — not even an email. He DID ask me if I was a lawyer($$$$) though *without me even mentioning that as a profession*– it’s like, huh? Why is my profession and the possibility of $$$$ even important at this stage?? It felt like being pre-screened(I’ll only get involved with you if you’re fairly wealthy! Without me divulging *my* finances, I might add) Another tip off that the guy was not interested in love, care, trust, respect as a basis for a relationship.
5) Related to above 2 points — I think Nat has it cold in this and other posts when she asks to look at why (Janet) married the guy. I can only say based on my own experience and kind of what others have said thus far is that it has a complexity that involves at least 2 things 1) daddy and/or other caregiver issues and 2) the guy was doing this behavior or something similar from the beginning. Yes– the love, care, trust — can’t say about that — but from what has been said, the “respect” lynchpin of the relationship was missing from the very beginning but somehow or another became a marriage partner. Not so easy to run now as it once was, eh?
I don’t have a stake in sharing these comments either way — but it feels good to “share” with other (walking wounded?) sisters and process and get some stuff off my chest — it can be hard to process these things without being precise about speaking with others who have had the *exact same* or similar experiences.
Interesting that you talk about the guy on the phone because I just went out on a date tonight (left him about 1 hour ago) and throughout the entire night he never asked me ONE thing about myself. I made a note to myself to watch and see and you know what? Nothing. So, just to see, I said to him at one point, “So, anything to ask me?” He was like, “Yeah, lots.” Then, nothing. When I made a point to mention something about my work, I could see his eyes glaze over. Mind you, he’s talking about how he wants another date tomorrow night and would I come on with him on an upcoming trip. Amazing. So, basically, he enjoyed the fact that I am a good listener and was paying him lots of attention, but he had none for me. I’m just learning to watch out for this now after my last relationship. They are like this from the beginning, you just need to stop and watch out for it. Because, honestly, if you and your needs and your interests aren’t interesting for them on a first date, why would your needs ever be of interest. Thanks for this, JC.
Scarlett, That’s a big one for me too…whether they are interested in me – ask questions. I’ve heard that some men are nervous so they will talk nervously about themselves because they want to impress you. My therapist said she would consider it a red flag by the third date. I disagree with her. I might give them a pass on the first one if they passed on everything else, but it would definitely be on my radar. I too have a history of people in my life (not just men) where it’s all about them.
Thanks JC – seeing so many other experiencing this type of thing makes me feel better in that I am not alone and definitely not mad! Good to share.
‘Daddy issues’ is something I had not considered, but my father was not an easy man to live with. You have given me things to think about.
You have nailed it JC. My ex was the son of an alcoholic father who was a womanizer and a pompous person who put down his wife continually in public. He was an ineffectual man and my ex turned out to have a lot of traits in common minus the alcohol. He was/is an emotionally stunted man who has a great sense of entitlement. He usually ignored what I felt and he showed no willingness to try to empathize.
If a person can’t express their own needs and feelings there can be no emotional intimacy or collaborative partnership. I never remember having a serious deep conversation with my ex about anything.
In the end he blamed me for everything – even for him never expressing his feelings, wants and needs. It was crazy-making and I was often confused, bewildered, upset and anxious. (and angry!)
And yes, it did happen from the beginning…I never connected the dots. He always told me he did care and I wanted to believe him so I justified many of the things he did and sucked up my own needs.
I had to leave for my own self-respect and survival and because, in the end, I saw through him and had no respect for him either. He had become much more abusive in the later years – I think he wanted to make things so intolerable that I finally would leave without him doing the “dirty work”. Understanding what really went down in the relationship and how I never had a chance has been hard to grapple with. He bounced into a nice shiny relationship with a new woman and I am still processing. My lesson to impart …don’t wait too long…give a deadline to yourself and stick to it.
Thanks again Espresso. I was thinking of putting a time limit on this, but have read elsewhere that is not advisable (not sure why). But 2017 will be three years since I first told him of his disrespectful and hurtful behaviour. Long enough.
Three YEARS and he’s still doing the behavior and being just as defensive about it? This is not what you are going to want to hear, but he’s not going to change, no matter what *you* do. The locus of control on that is not up to you. And you are not stuck, your own locus of control that is within you, when you get in touch with it, will help you leave him. Right now, based on the responses you’ve given to all these posts, I can see you have a lot of denial because he has been gaslighting you, which is a form of brainwashing. Trying to find a way to make him change is part of the ‘bargaining’ stage of loss/grief, because this relationship IS a total loss, even though you’re still in it. After three years of his behavior with no change or improvement, it is well past the time to give him the benefit of the doubt. I also agree with someone above who said the more talks, explanations of feelings, discussions, you try to have with people like this, the more it works against you because they will find a way to try to use it against you. It just gives them more information to work with, if you see what I mean. You would be making yourself vulnerable to someone who doesn’t care about your feelings and who doesn’t respect you. It actually might be helpful for you to take some time away from him, a weekend trip by yourself, to be with yourself and sort out your thoughts, feelings, needs, desires that have to do with YOU, not in relation to him. What do you want in YOUR life?
You’ve got to make some proactive decisions for yourself, not just react to what he’s doing, like leaving events. That’s being reactive, not proactive, and it’s not ultimately going to be empowering. In the moment, yes, get out of harms way, and I applaud you for doing that as a temporary solution but now, after three years, you’re just doing damage control for yourself there, you deserve to give yourself much more than that. Don’t wait to see what he’ll do or say next, who cares about him, don’t give him the power. Act in your own best interest, put yourself first. You can do this. You are never stuck, you’re just scared to make the leap.
I highly recommend a book called The Verbally Abusive Relationship, by Patricia Evans. (which is not just about overt verbal abuse but describes the entire embedded dynamics of emotionally abusive relationships)
This book helped me ‘get it’ that my ex-bf was operating from an entirely different reality, one that is not rational to healthy people, and that to try to approach issues normally with a person like this will never work, and it will be frustrating and confusing to us, until we realize we are dealing with a whole different kind of person and, really, the only solution is to get away from these types.
I read this book while going through a very abusive relationship years ago, that included physical abuse as well, and it was this book and my therapist at the time that finally helped me to ‘get it’ that none of the abuse I was receiving was my fault nor was there something I could do or say that would make it stop, because it wasn’t coming from me!
Finally, I left, but yes, it does take awhile.. you’ve got to make the shift in consciousness first, and that will enable you to leave. For me it was this book and the therapist that helped me make the shift in my mind. That was before the internet was so extensive. These days, sites like Natalie’s and other online forums can be of great help, too. Just keep getting support, wherever you find it, so you aren’t trying to get through this alone!
Goodness me, you are right LP. I am afraid to take the leap. Certainly some things to think about, not at least my own denial. Thanks for posting.
Believe me, I was terrified to take that leap! I had been with the man I just divorced for over 30% of the entire time that I have existed in this lifetime (and normalizing his abominable behaviour the entire time). That was the only long-term relationship I have ever had, but nevertheless it had become unavoidably clear to me that his character deficits could not coexist with my sanity and I learned through BR that we had core values disconnects across the board, so even if leaving him meant that I would spend the rest of whatever is left of this life totally alone — a real possibility at my age — it would still be better than staying in that losing battle. And it has been. Keep a “Feelings Diary” that Nat offers free of charge on her site in the “Goodies” section. That could be a helpful first step to clarify your feelings about the marriage and your array of options for dealing with it.
For whatever it’s worth, I was surprised at the people who seemed more comfortable with me staying in an abusive marriage that had broke me down to the point where I was just circling the drain than ending it and taking my chances solo. I’m SOOOO glad I went with the latter option!
I looked up Evans, the book mentioned above, and this interesting link came up about why you cant reason with verbally abusive people. Basically that you are behaving as if you expect rational behavior, but that is not the game the other person is playing.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-mysteries-love/201504/why-you-can-t-reason-verbally-abusive-partner
EXACTLY! You can’t reason with verbal/emotional abusers, which is what I was getting at in responding to the person below who had a step by step plan to try to communicate and get through to someone who’s behavior is harming you.
You can express how what they are doing is making you feel all you want, but they’re never going to get it!
I spent years trying to get them to understand, to see how much it was hurting me, how it was hurting our relationship. I was the one who didn’t understand that I was wasting my breath and energy.
Right?! For an awful lot of men and I would expect some women, that is a deeply entrenched manner of communicating (dismissive/belittling/etc.), and it comes down to a question of how much of your time and energy do you want to spend (or waste) trying to get them to completely alter their communication style and behaviour, if they even will at all.
À propos of the link Suki posted, it took YEARS for me to work out why I kept getting “error codes” instead of the rational response I was always expecting from my ex in a variety of situations. It was due to my unwavering belief that I was dealing with a mentally normal person when that was not the case; and again it took me a really long time to suss that out since our ability to communicate at all was virtually 100% contingent on *my* ability to communicate in Japanese.
Oh WOW, yeah — I really was just writing off the top of my head — not based a lot of deep introspection or anything like that but based on what a few have shared I feel like the feedback is I integrated some important, sort of new ways of looking at things better than I realized or expected.
I’m thankful that I can do that and slowly feel comfortable sharing my painful and un-pretty experiences as others have done. Wanted to mention I did Nat’s “100 Days of Self Esteem” or was it called “100 Days of Baggage Reclaim” back in the beginning of the year. I found it very intense — I “couldn’t” really do the journaling about every point of the day, but I DID at least read the e-mails and think through the points. Usually first thing in the day or before bed — sometimes both. If I missed a few days or a week or something — I MADE MYSELF go back, read up catch up. Don’t know if that program is still available but yeah — it sounds like I got more out of it than I was conscious of — that and making some sort of effort to change prior behaviors. Watch people more carefully, etc. — that “circle of trust” concept=also helpful, I think.
I think in this day and age, it can be perilous to go on these solo “dates.”
Not that I’m old fashioned or anything like that or a prude but — I can say for myself back in the day I had so many more people around me — both male and female — who could also serve as touchstones. Now that everyone is married and I persist a single? No one talks about relationships. With me. I mean, I was so tight in my social circle before everyone got married off that if any of us saw something “off” with anyone “new” to the scene — it was SO obvious! That has it’s pro/cons, don’t get me wrong — but I think these days, it is SO difficult to really get to know people over time. This Internet thing can be a stage for a lot of showmanship without a lot of depth –*irregardless* of whether you meet online or not!
Love, care, trust, respect (lctr)– okay, we’ve got that but. . .add “sexual compatibility.” Has anyone, even Nat talked about that one in detail? I think she has along the lines of don’t go thinking just b/c you’ve had sex means there is or will be a real relationship. See, a *lot* of guys put *that* before anything else. Women get caught up too, though perhaps slightly differently than men. Once that need (usually for them) has been met, a lot of us just go along assuming that everything else will fall into place, but. . .it doesn’t. Or, they can sort of set a SHOW of lctr — e.g. being not so clearly a jerk or abuser or so subtle we don’t realize what’s happening — and then once the sex goggles are on and it SEEMS like a real relationship, we get trapped — all the way to the altar and beyond.
Doesn’t matter *when* we have sex either, “waiting” doesn’t seem to help, even though of course, it’s not the wisest to sex ’em upfront and then expect more. But we can even marry these fools thinking everything is in place but NOPE! Unbeknowst to us, the relationship was based on A LOT of “sexual compatability” plus some role playing that LOOKS LIKE and SEEMS LIKE (lctr) but isn’t. And then it all. . .falls. ..apart — usually for us, but not for them b/c they’re the one that set the stage for the role playing and we went along b/c that’s what we’re used to.
That’s what this from each person who commented:
“Mind you, he’s talking about how he wants another date tomorrow night and would I come on with him on an upcoming trip.”
Uhhhhh. . . why didn’t he just beat his chest and say “Me want sexytime!!” and be done? B/C it’s more “romantic” to go on “dates,” that’s why. Talk AT you and AROUND you rather than TO and WITH you. Sounds like what Nat calls lovebombing and fast-forwarding. For my portion, I’m happy it sounds like I’ve got *my own* pre-screening process down by phone and email BEFORE even going out! Can I just add that in the guy’s EMAILS he ALSO did not ask me any personal questions that did not relate to himself–“I love swimming and skiing, do you?” Rather than, “what sort of things do you like to do?” I gave him the benefit of a doubt — I mean, email IS impersonal, right? But noooo — all my benefit doubting led to is 2 hours and prepaid phone minutes FLUSHED. I’m thankful I didn’t have to suffer through dinner or whatever. I mean, really — who wants to shave and teeth whiten and do eyebrows for this crap? That’s why I learned to REALLY cook — so I can have delicious and drama free meals any time I want.
“I wanted to believe him so I justified many of the things he did and sucked up my own needs.”
Not your fault per se. . .prior conditioning + sexytime that *seems like* lctr will do that. Happens.
. . . sounds like to me.
I mean, it seems unreasonable to nitpick apart and over-analyze every nuance in an e-mail or phone call. It’s good to be in the moment, to feel good with a man. But seriously?? Both bad behavior AND good are all right there from the very beginning, online and in person. I mean, ain’t nobody perfect but not working on an issue or on personal growth is a no in an intimate partnership or the potential for one. A lot and I mean *A LOT* of guys don’t do their work — they stick to their influences or how they were raised and that’s it.
The Internet has put all the madness out there on full display for us to click on, swipe through, etc. Unfortunately, I think especially as you get older and what’s out there is more divorcees and confirmed bachelors who really do mostly just want their sexual needs (and FINANCIAL especially, in the case of divorcees with a kid or several) we do, yes, have to be careful to the point of nitpicking. He doesn’t have to be perfect — but if there’s an issue even if it’s a small one and he doesn’t seem to want to work on it early on. . .why go further/deeper? I mean, think about it — once you’re dealing with a grown ass man and you’re together for however long — how much time is there to work on issues that were there before YOU got there? Especially if you’ve been working on your own issues.
Way past time after, say, your teens or 20s to be the moment and feel good with a man in the context of lctr for REAL — not this love bombing, fast-forwarding, scene setting, role playing nonsense.
xoxoxoxoxo — to all.
Janet,
Is it mainly this one behaviour in groups, or is is there a greater pattern of disrespect as well?
Mainly when we’re out in public, but there are a few low-level behaviours that are disrespectful, such as taking out his ‘phone or looking at the tv when I’m talking, that sort of thing. I do call him out on these. He’ll groan but his his ‘phone away. Like a teenager!
So that gives a bit of hope.
Lots of advice on here being given to bail out but you’re married and it’s harder to get out of especially if you have assets together or even children. It really depends on how bad it is overall.
There are lots of ways of dealing with situations:
1) Nat’s comment about deal with facts.
I had an ex who used to shout at me. If I said “you’re shouting at me”, she’d scream back “No, I’m not”.
If I said “The volume of your voice is rising”, she went back to speaking normally.
That’s real dealing with facts and no implied judgement.
2) In a situation like the shouting ex, you can try mirroring it to them.
I had a boss at work who used to give the death stare when I did something she didn’t like. One day I just pulled the same face back to her !! Didn’t see it again.
This is useful if it’s a behaviour the other person is genuinely not aware of. Again you could possibly video him doing the bad stuff on a night out. If he then denies it, you know it’s a deeper issue not just lack of awareness.
3) Someone mentioned the “When you do X, I feel Y, I’d like Z” … it’s worth a try. It’s clear and assertive.
4) Someone mentioned their husband not helping clean up the apartment and that talking about it never worked.
The answer is you stop talking and start taking action. When someone doesn’t do their bit e.g. leaves their stuff out, you put it away in the most inconvenient place possible. That inconvenience becomes their driver for change. You might have to go through an argument or tantrum but at least you begin to find out how willing they are to be part of the relationship.
Janet – I think you took action by leaving halfway through.
5) Deal with feelings. It doesn’t matter what the rights and wrongs of the situation are, it’s about how you want to be treated.
And the person you’re with should be willing to be responsive to your needs. Or at least acknowledge why they can’t meet those needs.
That’s the key issue – you’re not getting any sort of validation of your feelings either way.
6) Given that he is responsive when you ask him to stop looking at his phone or the TV, perhaps there’s something about the night-out behaviour that’s he feels shameful about and therefore denies. Maybe digging into that.
What I found with my ex who denied stuff to me was that she took control by making it an inquisition. She’d ask questions, I’d be on the defensive.
What I needed to do was ask her questions so that she was having to talk about how she felt and what she thought had been happening. Because the issues lay with her bad behaviour, not so much me.
7) Perhaps you need to discuss the night out issues at a different time. A few days down the road, it’s hopefully less of an emotive subject.
Need to pick a good time e.g. not when he wants to watch sports or just walked in from work. Not just before you’re about to go to sleep. Just a quiet time when you’re both in a good responsive mood.
8) Finally … I think you need to be open about the consequences of how you’re feeling about this topic. He probably sees it as a small issue that flares up every few months when you go out. For you, it’s becoming a dealbreaker to the whole marriage because of the lack of validation and it having gone on for two years. It’s become more than that for you.
You really need to get across your feelings and the action you’re thinking about taking.
Thanks for that BlueMagoo. Great advice.
Good example and strategies, but note that the person you’re referring to is now an ‘ex’, so somewhere along the way things still didn’t work out and the relationship ended.
Janet’s husband knows what he’s doing. He’s not oblivious. He wouldn’t be so staunchly defensive and unwilling to even look at the situation or hear about her feelings if he was truly innocent of what he is doing. The fact he won’t address it at all shows his power play.
Let’s stop giving denial-oriented and codependency-encouraging advice.
Janet, you need to put yourself first and not exhaust yourself trying to get him to change. It is possible to leave a marriage, it just might not be easy, but that’s no reason to stay in it. Don’t compromise yourself right out of your sanity.
Any hope people are seeing in the situation are grabbing at straws, again the bargaining stage of loss/grief.
I realize my words are not full of diplomacy. I have a more tough-love approach, but given with compassionate intent.
LP – just advising someone to leave their marriage because it sounds bad to you and resonates with your past experiences is irresponsible.
I’m certainly not advocating any co-dependent or denial-oriented strategies – these are all techniques that I have in my ‘toolkit’ for use in friendships, at work or in relationships.
I gave up on my ex at the point when I realised she was incapable of change. But I went through all the options before I made that decision.
The benefit of trying all the options is that firstly you might find one that actually opens things up; secondly if nothing works then you can call time on the relationship knowing you did everything you could and therefore without any regrets.
I will add that if there is any promise of change you hold them to it. It’s too easy to get surface change for a month or two and then old habits return.
But we agree that you don’t wear yourself out trying for two years. Personally I go with the rule of three – ask once, ask twice, give them a 3rd chance but if we get to a 4th time, there won’t be one – I’ll have given up on you.
Really you can see in the original question that Janet’s reached that stage but she’s not sure how to communicate that.
I’ll repeat what Natalie said in her advice because it’s awesome and better than just saying divorce him … “If what he’s doing is an isolated issue, that can help you rebuild confidence in your relationship. If what he’s doing is emblematic of wider issues, then you can understand the bigger picture. It’s not your fault that he behaves as he does. What you need to take responsibility for is how you show up in your relationship and what you will do next.”
BlueMagoo – You’ve also given advice that resonates with your past experiences, too, so how is that different? It’s just different advice than what I gave.
You gave advice according to your own values, and so did I. My values are that I don’t see the point of preserving a marriage above all else, even if you’re being emotionally abused.
Janet’s husband has pretty much shown he is incapable of change. Let’s get real… This has been going on for at least three years, it’s a pretty ingrained pattern for them, and if it’s that consistent, it shows his deeper character, not just a one-off, isolated yet recurring problem.
She could exhaust herself, as you did, trying to find just the right ‘key’ to unlock his problem and make him see the light, but it’s unlikely that she’ll find it. And again, it’s her doing too much of the emotional work of the relationship, which in itself is not a good dynamic to propagate. It wouldn’t be healthy for her, or a good precedent to set. Like someone said above, it’s not her responsibility to teach a grown-a$$ man how to behave!
I just don’t think we should be making up any more excuses for this guy, and he’s already had many chances to discuss the situation with Janet, and to change.
It will be up to her, of course, and her values and sensibilities whether she feels she has to explore every last possibility before feeling ok about leaving him. Not everyone feels the need to do that.
You’ve given really great advice that could definitely be effective in certain situations with many types of people, save those with major personality disorders such as narcissists.
I’m respectfully disagreeing with you as it pertains to this situation, though, because it doesn’t seem like her husband would be the type amenable to the type of conversations you suggest, or if he did ‘sit through it’, he doesn’t seem the type to truly change from it.
Again, great suggestions you have made, just not for dealing with *this* guy.
And, like you said, then you’d have to reinforce the changes over time, hold them to it…..that’s true but…..seriously?! Ain’t nobody got time for that! Again, he is a grown-a$$ man and should be accountable for his own behavior! Like Janet said, his reaction is like a teenager when she asks him to put his phone away….is that the dynamic you would want to keep engendering?
With respect,
LP
LP and BlueMagoo – I value your input and have re-read your posts several times. You have both given me things to think about that I had not considered. Thank you xx
That’s great, Janet. It’s good to get differing perspectives, for sure.
I hope you saw this link that someone posted above. I think it will further illuminate some dynamics at play in your situation. I wish you well!
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-mysteries-love/201504/why-you-can-t-reason-verbally-abusive-partner
Janet
AD has a brief but important point; is this an isolated behavior in an otherwise great husband or are there multiple behaviors of this type? Nats question too re your motives for marrying him. A variation on a time when I dated a local right after moving here. A bad feeling from the start as values, education levels, attitudes toward education, lifestyle didn’t mesh. Last straw was snoring, as in loud enough that I couldn’t sleep. He’d get upset if I moved away to deaden the racket. Poking him in the ribs just ticked him off. Said I was exaggerating and need to get used to it. Yet admitted his brothers and sons snoring/breathing issues were so bad surgery was needed. As I work plus run a farm, I thought my zzzz’s were important. Led me to think: he also expected a perfectly clean, pet hair free house where there was a dog and cats, a fire going despite my teaching nights, meals cooked, yet his own home was a mess. I was supposed to run as fast as he despite chronic anemia and less time to train, I was supposed to listen to his tales of his perfect day in the mountains while mine was long, monotonous, stultifying, yet not complain. A pattern of constant criticism, a hatred of my friends, education, lifestyle. Eventually I saw that I had accepted him, and later, Narcboy, out of sheer loneliness plus trauma. A lost marriage and career, followed by dealing with cancer totally alone, being stalked, an attempted sexual assault, then moving to a town with radically differing values from mine, and being a long distance caretaker to an emotionally damaged parent. I was a wreck; you make bad choices, fail to see red flags when you’re a wreck. Think carefully about the whole situation.
Norway, I’ve been reading your comments for a while and your advice always resonates with me. This one in particular, thank you. I realise too that the bad choices I made and bad behaviour I tolerated were out of sheer loneliness and trauma. I stuck with them because I too was a wreck. Realising this has made it easier to forgive myself. Although I still carry some of that ‘wreckedness’, I’m in a better place for following BR and your comment is part of a tipping point. I now deep down feel, rather than just understand, that I have choice and don’t have to continue with it. Hugs.
I am overawed by the responses here. Thank you all.
I looked up the definition of ‘denial’. A defence mechanism to deal with an uncomfortable truth. Interesting.
xx