Longtime readers may recall that while pregnant with my first daughter, I got into the hidden camera show ‘Cheaters’. The premise is people who suspect their partners of cheating have them investigated and followed… and then confront them. I know, I know. But I was signed off with a bad back at 34 weeks. Call it Baggage Reclaim research, haha. It fascinated me that people either wouldn’t trust the information they already had or that they would go on TV before they would communicate with their partners or make a decision.
There are clues as to why you suspect your partner of cheating (or whatever it is). And unless you’re projecting, so that’s when you’re up to something, feeling bad about it on some level and then looking to dispel that feeling by finding a similar fault in them, or when you’ve already got the story in your head and just want to bring the self-fulfilling prophecy to its conclusion so you can be right and remove uncertainty, those clues, if you pay attention, provide you with a hell of a lot of the information that you need.
The first thing you need to admit if you’re tempted to snoop or already have is that you have trust issues.
And a relationship without trust is like washing your front but not your back–mucky.
If you won’t use your senses, your gut, your brain, your self-awareness, etc., to take a reading on a situation, to open up a dialogue, to help you figure out whether an experience is in alignment with the values you profess to have and the feelings and life you want to experience, snooping, hiring detectives or even dragging your partner on reality shows become the substitute for these.
I regularly hear from BR readers who have taken to playing Columbo or Jessica Fletcher behind their partners’ backs. It can start out as what seems fairly innocuous. But… as anyone who has ever had a ‘little snoop’ can attest to, like Pringles, once you pop, you can’t stop. I don’t even eat Pringles that often but leave a red tube in front of me and they will disappear. Fast. Anyway, I digress.
Just in case you have any doubts about what snooping involves, here are a few examples:
- Going through their phone and reading their texts, deleting messages etc.
- Installing apps on their phone so that you can keep an eye on their movements.
- Logging into their email or even onto dating websites where they are registered. Yes… I do hear from people who are keeping tabs on their exes….
- Going through their drawers, that’s the ones that they store their stuff in as well as the ones that they package their privates in.
- Monitoring their movements on social media.
- Donning a wig and mac or other such disguises to follow them.
Why do people snoop on their loved ones?
Because they’re either looking for something to validate the story they’ve decided on, or they are looking to validate concerns related to code amber and red alerts. There’s also a section of snoopers who use it as part of an overall m.o. of controlling their partner’s movements and being abusive.
If you’ve ever snooped on a partner, you may have felt insecure and used it as a means of reassuring your doubts and calming your unease. Or, you may have had genuine cause for concern and not enough faith to cover it, and so you looked for answers to validate what you’re feeling and/or to clear away those doubts.
Regardless of how it’s packaged though, it is a violation of their privacy. It’s also a breach of trust that can leave you feeling undignified and even trapped in a disempowering vicious cycle of shame.
Snooping puts us in a bind because:
Control isn’t love; it’s control. If we want to be in mutually fulfilling, loving relationships with care, trust, and respect, our relationships cannot be about power and control. Ever been stifled by somebody’s jealousy and possessiveness? Yep, that’s not love; that’s control.
Snooping is temporary protection against doubts. The next time we experience the feelings and thoughts, if we haven’t addressed the root cause and learned how to self-soothe and also communicate with our partner, we will snoop again. And lather, rinse, repeat.
It’s pseudo control even if the other party doesn’t know about it. We’re trying to remove uncertainty, but we cannot control the uncontrollable. We are engaging in snooping in lieu of having more command of ourselves and being conscious, aware, present, and responsible in our relationships.
I’ve also noticed something quite interesting about snooping:
Often when we snoop on partners, we rationalise that it’s OK and that we have legitimate reasons for doing so that are different to say, an abusive person’s reasons for doing so.
What also happens is that even if we do find evidence, we keep it to ourselves. It’s not just because we don’t want to reveal what we’ve been up to; it’s often more so because we see the evidence as an indicator of something about us. This then becomes our motivation to step up with people-pleasing to try to influence and control their feelings and behaviour. We might blame our worth or think that we haven’t ‘proved’ ourselves enough. Or we feel that we’ve ‘done’ something to provoke the existence of the evidence and then reason that if we want to feel better, we have to make them feel better so that they behave and the evidence ceases to exist.
We also have that sense of knowing what we’re working with. It’s as if the uncertainty has been removed (for now) and we can just bury our heads in the sand. In some respects, we can be reassured that we are in our pattern. This, however, ends up validating our unhealthy beliefs.
The funny thing is–and this could the subject of a post all by itself–if we fess up to snooping after finding evidence, sometimes the other party starts up with the, “Oh! So you obviously don’t trust me! Right, well I might as well not bother anymore. I won’t stay in a relationship where I’m not trusted!” malarkey when presented with that said evidence. What the what now?
It’s true; you don’t trust them. And you have good reason not to. Even without your snooping, they were up to no good. Your lack of trust is an issue, but it’s not the reason for the issue of their existing actions.
They didn’t know that you were going to snoop in advance of them deciding that they were going to deceive you.
Whether it’s a momentary lapse in judgement or a series of lapses that have made snooping a habit, halt.
It’s not the kind of behaviour that you can carry with you if you’re on a journey where you want to feel good about yourself and enjoy healthy relationships. No one wants to feel unsafe and ultimately, where do you draw the line? You can’t keep crossing their line in order to make you feel better.
If you have snooped, even if you have found evidence, apologise with no equivocations. Just like you don’t want anybody blaming you for what they do, you need to own your actions so you can learn from them. If the evidence shows where they’ve erred, you apologising doesn’t change that.
The urge to snoop or even going ahead and doing so has often proved to be a watershed moment. It can force you to acknowledge that you’re either not happy within and that you need to focus on supporting you. It might flag that you need to work on your personal security. Or, you recognise issues about the relationship that you’ve been denying, rationalising and minimising.
If staying in a relationship or feeling ‘OK’ is going to come at the cost of your dignity due to snooping, that relationship and/or the snooping isn’t worth it. Snooping never leads to anything good. You either end up feeling crap for doing it, or you end up finding evidence of what you already know but are too afraid to admit. There are better ways to calm insecurity, and there are better ways to bring concerns out into the open or exit the relationship.
Your thoughts?
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This is a great article, spot on again. I have learnt this lesson the hard way. I have snooped in 2 previous relationships and both times I have found what I’ve been looking for. Sometimes your gut feeling that something isn’t right isn’t enough you need evidence because if you say I think such and such men will just lie! But if you’ve got something to back it up then there’s no argument. However you have then broken their trust & they then blame you for being a snooper, which is not good but they didn’t lie and cheat because you snooped they were already doing it. Like you say Nat it’s us often denying, rationalising and minimising things. So my lesson… If you feel like you wanna snoop, don’t. It’s hard but if you start playing detective then trust is already gone, so get out.
I live by a simple rule … and believe you me I have done it all and am not an angel … but I live by this simple rule. If you have a need to go through someone’s phone … or their personal belongings or their email or their social media accounts … your relationship is already over .. you are merely looking for evidence to justify what you already know …
Thank you for commenting and BR for introducing the topic. Been there. I look back and see that my detective work actually made me feel like I was in the relationship – that was the only way I could have felt “in” the relationship. It was over and I was holding on. It gave me some skewed power. I was going wave the intelligence I gathered in front of him and prove that what he said wasn’t true. I was not able to face own my deep knowing about who he was and what we were not and get out. I am well now. I know that if that “compulsion” ever comes again, it means the very same thing….. Get Out! We have powerful barometers if we stay quiet enough to hear them and make decisions based on our own innate intelligence.
In the case where the person IS cheating, it’s over and they’re looking for evidence for justification.
In the case where the person ISN’T cheating, it’s still over, but the snooper is simply acting out on his/her insecurity and sabotaging a perfectly good relationship.
I’ve snooped in the past, and I never found anything, but I did sabotage my relationships. Even when they didn’t catch me snooping, they could still sense how insecure I was due to my other behaviors.
So, yeah. Either you’re looking to confirm something you already know (the person is cheating), or you are carrying out a self-fulfilling prophecy where you believe the person doesn’t care about you, and thus your behavior drives the person to stop caring.
When someone you love cheats on you, you dump them, and they beg for a second chance and you say yes, you are allowing a liar and cheater back in on strength of their promises. I did that. I dumped a cheater in 2003. Then in 2013 we had contact again and she swore she was no longer a cheater, but she planning to divorce her wife because she realized at once I was the love of her life and she wanted me back. I fell for it and she turned out to be same cheating, lying loser I dumped 20 years earlier.
But this time I told her wife. I didn’t want double ex to contact me ever again under any guise, so I scorched the earth. I’m sure they’re still together, but at least now the wife could make an informed decision.
Another slant on the “why snoop” is to simply get the unvarnished truth from someone. When asking questions does not yield the truth and it would significantly help in navigating the relationship, peering into their world through their texts, emails or social media messages can be surprisingly revealing. For me, not using this information to disturb the time-space continuum is critical. Lashing out, reacting, in general having a sh*t-fit is counter productive. If I have learned something about someone, it allows me to ask more directed questions which allows the truth to come out of their mouths. It also helps explain their actions. Holding someone in compassion is also an outcome. On the other hand, they can actually prove to be so pathetic as to be unworthy of any more effort.
If a partner snooped on me, they’d be out of the window ultra-quick. In fact, there was a guy I’d been on a couple of dates with who was telling me about his ex-wife. She used to write ‘I love you!’ in the condensation on the bathroom mirror, and little romantic gestures like that. Yet, he told me, he was going through her emails one day, and she’d written to a friend about their marriage, saying she’d made a terrible mistake. He shook his head ruefully.
Damn right she had, I thought – she’d married a guy who would read her personal emails! That, and several other little gestures from him which were controlling under the guise of caring, ensured we didn’t have another date.
I guess, for me, trust and respect are crucial in relationships. If I was in a relationship where there were so many red flags I felt that snooping would be justified, that’s a relationship I really shouldn’t be in. Respect for the other person’s autonomy and separateness comes into it, too.
Similarly, if I were in a relationship where getting up to nefarious things seemed OK – THAT’S a relationship I really shouldn’t be in. I’d be absolutely livid if a partner of mine indulged in the various snooping activities you describe – and I’d expect them to feel the same if the roles were reversed.
I snooped once, more like I found something by accident once, a pic of my then boyfriend’s ex wife along with a card that was dated that x-mas. I found this in January. When I told him, I saw this and asked him what it was, without mentioning that I read it, he said it was a card from ex. Previously, he told me he had no contact with ex for over a year, so I asked when was it from and he said 3 years ago. I asked if I could look at it and of course the truth came out, and a couple more lies. Should have ended it then, as these were red flags…it went on for 3 more months.
I am reading Dreamer and Fantasy Relationship, I really want to clean my act and stop wasting time with EUs. I’m surprised at how clueless I am when it comes to picking men. I hope this helps.
Funny enough, I just got an email from a guy from the same dating site as LD Bagel man and this guy has already invited me to visit him! I am sure it is also a form letter he has sent to many. This was his first contact with me. The universe is certainly having fun with my love life!
Hey whatever – how interesting about New Non-Bagel Guy. At least he’s open to a real-life meeting.
(Does he live in Tierra del Fuego, by any chance? Guam? Or maybe the Aleutian Islands?)
Are you considering taking him up on the offer?
Ethelreda
He lives in Oregon. He invited me to meet him in Carmel. Whatever! Did you happen to get the same invitation?
The universe isn’t having fun with your love life Whatever, you are. Just hit that delete button with ‘come here and meet me man’.
He’s just testing you to see how far you will go. You have no idea of who this man is either, give him a miss.
LDR’s are the trickiest of all relationships. Even for people who know each other and have been going out for a while, moving for a new job or family reasons, long distance can kill a relationship off over time. Loneliness and meeting someone else in a social situation happens and it’s no one’s fault.
It’s life and nothing remains static. Even you.
Keep looking, sooner or later someone will turn up who will tick all the boxes. Someone who is interested in you and wants you to be his girlfriend leading to something more long term. You WILL know when it happens.
pauline
thanks, you are sweet. There is a local guy I have been trying to meet that afriend told me about. I missed out on meeting him last weekend, but my friend told him about me and gave him my number. He has not called and he said he can meet me at another function. Well there are no upcoming functions, so who knows when it will be. I am upset that he seems in no hurry to meet me. What do you think?
I’m not Pauline but Whatever, please just slow your roll. He has your phone number. There is nothing else for you to do but wait. If he’s remotely interested he’ll contact you. If he’s lost your number he wasn’t that interested. It’s not rocket science. Wait. In the meantime cultivate YOU and YOUR interests. He is not the be all and end all so don’t act like he is. It’ll be gratifying if he comes after you.
tinkerbell
I know you are right, in the meantime I don t want to resent him for not calling. His friend said to my friend who gave him my number that he will not give his number out and that we willsimply have to meet when we do. He also told my friend who can be very bold that she scared him. Great!
I have to wait and who knows if it will even work. My friend may try to set something up so we can all get together. The other guy is her ex who she tried to set me up with first but the guy is not right for me, too many differences, so now this other guy is his friend that I want to meet. Who knows what is really happening. But as u said, I carry on and forget about it until it happens.
Whatever. Why would you resent someone you don’t even know? Cut him a break. He indicated to your gf that he doesn’t want to be rushed into anything. Sometimes guys get “spooked” or just plain turned off depending upon the situation. You’ve stated that she can be bold. He may be thinking “birds of a feather flock together”. In case you’ve never heard that, it means that if she is your good friend you may be just like her and he’s not interested in being chased down. Men are traditional they STILL PREFER TO TAKE THE LEAD. Plus, they want it to be their idea. Now, you have the no-good types who, when it goes south, are very happy to remind you it was all your idea and your fault that you wanted them. Just wait and see what happens. Read Nat’s older posts because I get the impression you’re pretty young with a lot to learn. When real love (in a healthy relationship} comes along, you want to be ready for it.
Tink
Sadly, I am not young, but I realized that I do project onto men, my dream of how they should be and then get very upset when they don’t deliver. I learned this from my mother because she did it to me my whole life.
However, even though I see my blindness very clearly, I still haven’t managed to move beyond it, I just want what I want. So, yes, this pattern got instilled at a young age.
Whatever, Tink is 100% right.
Just wait and see what happens. You can’t force anything or anyone.
Just think how you would feel if some guy seemed too eager when you didn’t know him or pressuring you to do something you weren’t sure about, it would turn you off in no time flat. True?
ALWAYS do your due diligence first, specially where YOUR life and relationships are concerned.
No man will ever be everything in your life. You will always need your own interests, friends and family to sustain you through life. So get out and have some fun.
Thanks Pauline
You will get there, don’t be too hard on yourself. I’ve made many mistakes and then some. When I first started reading BR I was cringing at every post I read as I could see everything I did wrong. I was unavailable and had assclown tendencies, no self esteem and I was crawling after this creep taking every piece of shit he dished out. God knows how I got there but the penny finally dropped, thanks to BR and all the great people who post on here. You will get there too, have faith in yourself, you have your own back now and we will keep cheering you on. Take care girl.
Pauline, Tink
Thanks! I did finally hear from LD Bagel man, he wrote me saying he has met someone in his town and if it doesn’t work, then he would like to meet me.
Talk about being a fall back girl! How presumptuous of him! I decided I won’t respond to his email, and I certainly don’t want to wait around while he tries out this new gal and I don’t want to meet him now, not ever, not even as a friend. Next.
I agree, Snooping doesn’t lead to anything good. Netflix just released a movie by Stephen King called The Good Marriage. It involves snooping -was a good watch!
I add Part 2 to my response. I snooped big – Paid for one of those Reports & found out a guy had Felony Criminal Charges for Assaulting a Woman.
I do think you can get too much info from FB and find women, and their comments, and their pics of him…. But already you know that this relationship is not a good one and you should break it off …. But in weakness and desperation opening the wounds by viewing online stats keeps you stuck in it.
Thank you for this Nat. I have had an enormous amount of difficulty stopping myself from snooping in my new relationship (7 months so far). I have a lot of difficulty trusting my partner – and most other people in my life. This is because I had my trust betrayed in a very big way by my (ex) best friend and ex boyfriend about 10 years. I’m sure you can imagine what happened there.
It wasn’t until I started this new relationship that I realised that I still hadn’t gotten over that betrayal. But even though my new boyfriend hasn’t given me any reason to distrust him, I am still struggling to do so.
I have been an avid reader of your website since I realised how much healing I still need to do. It is a struggle every day to control my anxiety (I have been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder) and my fears threaten to overwhelm me on a regular basis. But I am working hard on these things, because I do believe that I deserve to be in a happy, healthy relationship with a good guy, and my boyfriend appears to be that person.
I was not sure what you meant by “you need to work on your personal security” in that last paragraph though. I don’t know if you monitor the comments section of your posts but any further clarity on this would be helpful.
Thanks again for sharing your wisdom!
Yep, I think development of ones Spidey senses should be sufficient in order to decide if something’s off. You really don’t need to know what, just that something’s awry. Hot/cold behavior, sporadic interest, zero hallmarks of a real emotional connection; time to bail. The really great thing about BR is learning about red flag behaviors that we may not have experienced, thus avoiding a boatload of problems. Unless one lives with the suspected cheater, it can be very difficult to suss out cheating anyway; the cheater is probably doing their cheating outta town or very privately. All the lowering of ones dignity, wasted time trying to catch someone in the act may just leave one with a greater sense of unease. Yep, I coulda easily snooped on the AC, it would’ve saved me perhaps a month or two of uncertainty, a very humiliating, very public dénouement, but really I should’ve listened to my gut, detached emotionally, or perhaps asked him flat out what gives. Snooping around was only going to waste my time, incur a serious risk of being caught, and would’ve been a place morally speaking, I didn’t want to go. I understand it’s a whole different issue when someone is married to the suspect cheater, especially with kids. This is why I tell my female students to not even consider marrying until one has their own education/career and to protect ones assets. Sounds harsh but marriages and families break up all the time; spouses bail, get I’ll, die and all of us need a Plan B.
Jade – broken HIS trust? I don’t like that viewpoint. He cheated, you caught him, and you really allowed him to guilt you with that line? Unless you were trying to control him, and thought that by catching him he would “straighten up”, so you let him whine and you willingly accepted blame, because maybe you didn’t want to end the relationship, you just wanted him to stop cheating – as if you could control that. You can’t.
Karen – you did not tell the wife to “help” her. You wanted to make the cheater pay. Most spouses are well aware the mate is cheating. Some relationships thrive on that kind of drama, so “telling” isn’t hurting the relationship and might even be adding fuel to it – meaning some couples need to fight in order to stay interested in each other.
We need to walk away from these ACs and/or be honest about our intents. I did a scorched earth thing once, and am very glad I did. He deserved it. He lied about almost everything, including being single. And I did it to make HIS life miserable, not out of solidarity for the woman-who-I-thought-was-an-out-of-the-picture-girlfriend-who-actually-turned-out-to-be-the-wife. I did not know she was the wife until I called his home to let the “girlfriend” know he had just left my house and she could have him! Wow..hadn’t thought about him in years. He had no character, and it showed up consistently, in almost everything. These people do not deserve second chances.
Karen: “But this time I told her wife. I didn’t want double ex to contact me ever again under any guise, so I scorched the earth. I’m sure they’re still together, but at least now the wife could make an informed decision.”
That’s exactly what I did with married AC. It was funny because previously I just walked away and let it be. Took the high road. But just as I feared, it only left the door open for him to worm his way in again with more lies and new hopes. The last time was just one time too many. Scorched earth is not always about revenge, Elgie, but often a desperate self-protective measure, as ensures it will NEVER happen again. And as it happens, in my case it opened a fantastic dialogue with the wife, who turned out to be a far better person than he will ever be. I don’t know if they are still together, I suspect they are. But doing this allowed me to finally close the door, indeed, nail it shut, and gave her a level playing field. Yes she knew, but not the entire truth or extent. We were able to compare notes, uncover concurrent deceptions. The truth set us both free to move forward. It was the right thing to do. It was almost like karma came knocking and said, nice job with the high road and all, but you were supposed to tell her!
Oh yes it does, I found my man had been contacting prostitutes for 6 months while away weekdays for work. I’d never have known otherwise, and still be there 5 years later thinking all is ok, when clearly it was not. Did me a great deal of good.
If you are taking out the time to snoop then you are not done with him/her yet. So when you find that thing in his/her email that confirms what you felt all along you are still not done with them. You knew before you looked something wasn’t right and you stayed. Now you have to decide if this is enough for you to wake up from your fantasy and stop ignoring yourself and lying to yourself or not. Its bad enough if they have been dishonest, but worse that you have been dishonest with yourself…now you have the proof.
I have to laugh because this brings back memories from many,many years ago. At the same time I’m thinking “Damn, Tink. What have you NOT done when it comes to topics Nat brings us on this blog?!”. Well, I was going with a guy about 15-20 years older than I was. I knew he had broken up with his long time girlfriend. At least that’s what he told me. What’s more he lived directly across the street where I still lived with my parents. I guess I was about 25 at the time and this was after leaving my first AC husband. I would constantly watch is house especially night to see if he was going anywhere. I would bite my nails and wring my hands worrying if he was going to her house. They’d been together for years and I didn’t believe he’d really given her up. So one night I saw that he was getting ready to go out. I knew what street she lived on but did not know which house. So I followed him over there. I just had to know if he was with her. Of course, I wasn’t concerned about what I was going to D0 with the information. When I got to her street I began looking for his car. Needless to say, I found exactly what I was looking for. His car and hers were in the driveway. You may have heard the expression “Curiosity killed the cat?” Well, I thought I would die. Instead of being satisfied that my suspicion was correct, I was angry with myself for having stooped low enough to actually follow his sorry ass. I never confronted him about it. At least I wasn’t that foolish, but I broke up with him. I never did anything like that again because it was not worth the pain in my heart, the blow to my pride and the shame I felt even though I was the only one to know about it. It was a bitter pill to swallow but the lesson was learned. If you cannot trust and believe in what your man is doing you need to let him go. If he’s a cheater he is not going to change his ways simply because you’re having a fit and confronting him. That was one experience I didn’t need have to more than once.
Tinkerbell,
I did the same thing…went by his house in the early, early morning because I suspected he had someone there. Sure enough. And like you, it did nothing but make me feel terrible. But it also was finally the one thing that made me wake up and end my addiction to his abuse. Even though I knew throughout the five years of being with him that he had multiple women, it didn’t seem real until I actually saw the car in his drive. It’s a bitter pill. But like others have stated on here, if you have to prove your suspicions you shouldn’t be in the relationship anyway. Just another one of his horrible traits.
Rewind. I know what you mean. Seeing that car was a horrible wake up call. But at least what we both did afterward was exactly what we needed to do. Flush. Hopefully after that you began to make better choices with men, and the urge to snoop has been unnecessary.
That experience so many years ago is also the reason why I never wanted a relationship with someone in close proximity to where I live. At least a thirty minute drive is close enough, an hour even better. I suppose there are those women who want the convenience of having him close, but it’s not a convenience to me and I don’t recommend it. Imo, it’s similar to having an intimate rship with a co-worker. When it goes sour it is way too close for comfort.
So right Tink. When things go south, one should never have to see, deal with the person or their pals ever again. Had to drive by the house of a dude that disappeared on me a few years after the end of my marriage and drive past the home of a local I’d try to date years ago. In any case, it was either having to see the other cars in their driveways or turn my head away and risk running off the road. Also, the discomfort of dealing with their friends as they were either your friends too or they were guy pals of the ex that’d glare at you. Then there’s the checking out cars before entering the grocery, the restaurant, the post office making sure they or their latest isn’t there. Life is waay too short to deal with this sort of crap. The nearest towns are 20+ mikes away; the perfect distance if I should meet someone and it doesn’t work out.
Yeah Noquay. When I posted above that he should be at least 30minutes away my mind was on you, knowing you’d probably agree with me since that’s what you’re accustomed to, anyway. The miles of driving. Even if I were living close to him at this stage of my life, I couldn’t care less what he’s doing because he wouldn’t be around me if trust was an issue. I don’t want him knowing what I’m doing either. It’s not a matter of keeping secrets because that is not me. It’s just that as I get older, with no plans or desire to remarry I cherish my privacy. I want to see him on a date, or have him over to visit, even overnight if we’re at that stage, but once he leaves I don’t want to see him until the next time. No unplanned supermarket run-ins or anywhere else in my neighborhood. So no kind of snooping for me.
Yep, especially in a small place, when things end badly there could be consequences The local I alluded to would sit at the top of my hill, where there’s an access road and must’ve been spying as it’d be pitch black. He didn’t realize that I am very good at memorizing details of vehicles and he has a unique license plate. I’d circle round trying to head him off, confront him, and he’d see me and be gone. Wasn’t admiring the scenery as it was pitch black. There were other forms of harassment besides. When I was cyber stalked three years ago, the dude knew where I worked, work phone and email, could find where I lived by Google earth or by just asking in town; luckily wherever he actually lived, it was too far, then there was stalkerboy last spring put off by my large and very enraged dog. Funny, my home community has 1/10 the population but much more privacy due to thick woods and healthy (1/4 mile) distances between neighbors and folk/vehicles that don’t belong are easily sussed out.
After being with a guy for 10 years who suddenly one night out of the blue told me he was having “fantasies” about men, damn right I snooped. And thank god I did. He’d been having way more than fantasies. He’d been having sex with strange men he found online. Hell no was I going to apologize. It gave the evidence I needed to get the F out and to get myself tested for AIDS. Before that, I actually felt sorry for him and was determined to help him with his fantasies! Haha!!! Snoop if you need to, ladies!!!
I’ve never snooped on anybody but I would, if necessary, to check. I wouldn’t do it on a regular basis because I don’t want to be with I man I don’t feel I can trust.
this is a good reminder. Thank you, Natalie!
Funny…when I was married, my ex used to regularly accuse me of snooping. I didn’t snoop. I would come upon a gift of a bill or something questionable, while doing chores, putting laundry away and even cooking or running errands. A question such as, “What is this?” from me sent my ex into a rage.
One day, on my drive home from work, I saw my husband driving home from his work. He was in the car next to me. He never noticed me. I tried hard to get his attention, Waving. Beeping my horn. Driving behind him. Pulling out and speeding ahead of him to get directly in front of him. No response. It was odd. So I just continued my drive home and waited in the driveway, expecting him to pull in a few minutes later. But he didn’t come home for more than an hour. When I shared the story and asked where he had gone, he got defensive and accused me of being controlling. I was dumbfounded. I was only curious. I waited for awhile in the driveway out of love. I wanted to greet him when he came home from work… and tease him for not recognizing me in the car next to him.
I think that after he started to accuse me of being controlling, I began to believe that I was and even started to actually behave that way. His actions and his words were often questionable and rarely made sense. I was trying to understand who I was married to. When I finally wised up and understood that he was not an honorable man, he didn’t like being called out on his behavior. He is my ex for that reason.
This post is SO on-point.
I used to be a snooper, and it’s because I felt insecure in myself and subconsciously assumed that no guy would be satisfied with just me. I also had a history of dating sleazy men who did, in fact, cheat on me, but those were guys I should have avoided from the get-go.
It took getting caught and called out on my snooping for me to finally pull myself together and stop being so insecure. The guy literally said to me, “Why do you think I would cheat on you? What have I done to make you think that? Why can’t you trust me?”And I realized I had no answer; we spent most of our time together, and when we weren’t together, we texted/called every single day. He literally had no time to even cheat on me, yet I still couldn’t trust him.
Him catching me ruined a relationship that could have had so much potential had I only acted like a normal human being. I learned a major lesson from that.
I met my current boyfriend a couple of months after my ex and I broke up, and I am adamant on not letting my insecurities creep in and ruin things this time. No snooping, no cyber stalking him, and no getting mad over him taking more than an hour to text me back, no guilt tripping him when he doesn’t feel like hanging out. I am going to trust him until he gives me a reason not to, and I am going to keep on having a life outside of my relationship with him. If he’s doing something shady, it WILL eventually come out without me needing to snoop.
So far, this new approach to dating has worked really well. My current boyfriend is honestly more into me than any boyfriend I’ve had in the past, and it’s because I’m not smothering him or trying to drag him closer. Our relationship is progressing slowly and healthily, but regardless of that, I can genuinely say that if it ends tomorrow, I will be alright. That knowledge in itself has done SO much to make me stop acting insecure and clingy.
Good on you Miranda. I am trying my hardest to do likewise. I’m not yet at the point where I am confident that I will be okay if it ends tomorrow (especially if he ends up breaking my trust), but I’m working on it.
For me, snooping taught me a great deal about my ex. I’m very glad I snooped, in fact, I would do it again if given reason. It gave me the clarity to understand why I always felt he was distant despite his excuses. Snooping doesn’t always come from a place of insecurity, people lie all the time and our guts can only tell us so much.
jay
I totally agree!
I’ve had my share of snooping stories, but I won’t go into it! LOL. But I do believe there are times when investigating is warranted. I believe that when you are in a normal relationship there is a consistency that exists in people behavior. And I believe it is normal for any person to react when that person deviates from that pattern. I don’t think it is wrong to become suspicious when that person starts to act different than what you maybe accustomed to. This is where I think you should at least communicate with your partner about the change in their patterns before resorting to investigating further. Know if that person can’t give you a reasonable explanation about their behavior then a little investigating maybe warranted. Just sayin!
I don’t know Steph. I agree that you should question when your partner begins to show a clear deviation from his usual behavior. Over time we get to know a person’s normal behavior and what they’re to think and do in many given situations. When they begin showing behavior that’s unprecedented and strange from what they’ve shown in the past you need to sit down and have The Talk. I don’t feel that his reluctance to “open up” warrants snooping. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Why should you compromise your dignity for the likes of him? If it were me, I would not be able to stay when I had legitimate appropriate questions that he wouldn’t answer. Now, I’m talking about a “regular guy”, not a homosexual, bi-sexual man who will have his secrets. That’s another whole topic in which I, thankfully, have zero experience.
I don’t consider it undignified to investigate if the person is not telling you the whole story. I’m not saying go hire an investigator or putting a tracking device on them, but you may want to look into it further. Sometimes people won’t tell you everything not because they are being malicious, but sometimes they are afraid of how you would react! If I found out on my own then I can at least begin an open conversation where they maybe forced to communicate or suffer the consequences.
Stephanie. I think it can be undignified depending on what lengths you’re going to in order to get the information that he will not give you. If he understands clearly what you are asking then he also is aware that he is intentionally withholding information. If he is “afraid of how you would react”. does that not reek of shady behavior to you? You should not have to go around him, behind his back to find out the entire story. He is lieing by omission and, more times than not, the info omitted is the most critical part of the story. I am not trying to tell you what the extent of your closeness is or should be. I don’t know nor is it my business. And, you have not mentioned what you would be doing to find out what you want to know. But if you see nothing wrong with it, far be it from me to judge. In my book he’d have to pay the consequences for being devious and trying my patience. The topic is about snooping and there are many different forms of which none of them are being completely honest and straightforward. However, as evidenced by other posts, it is a controversial subject with much difference of opinions.
@Tinkerbell, I wasn’t with a homosexual — that I KNEW of. That’s thing. Everyone is “normal” until they’re not! LOL!
Diane. Your latest post above leaves me speechless. You mean to tell in 10 years he was able to pull the wool over your eyes? How often did you see each other once a year? LOL! I’m using humor but that is actually very scary. Count yourself fortunate that it finally ended with him giving you clue into his real psyche. I can’t imagine how that realization made you feel.
That is the scary part, we lived together and he was never unavailable and I never once caught him in a lie. Of course, we were not glued at the hip. He had a job, I had a job. Occasionally I traveled for work. He had sports things he did and things with friends. The usual relationship. But he was home every night. There was never a moment where I was like “Where IS he? This is SO strange…” If someone wants to make the time to do something, they will. Also, men are very quick about these things, I guess!
My most recent EUM, me being the “other woman,” had an app called FindFriends.. where he monitored not only my every movement, but his not-so-ex-wife. If she didn’t text/call back when she said she would, if she wasn’t within cell reception for him to know where her exact location was.. he would up and leave me, our house to go searching for her. Strange how the “small things,” and my inability to be “understanding” that he still cared for her well-being translates into control.
That’s just creepy.
I think snooping has a place in relationships, too. I know I will snoop when I feel it is in my best interest to snoop. People hide medical lies, financial lies, and within a relationship where you are really merging your lives, if you are with someone who just will not be straightforward about some very important things, sometimes you have to snoop to get them to open up and talk about difficult subjects. That’s the imperfect part of relationships.
But if I feel a need to snoop over someone’s faithfulness to me, then the relationship is over. I have no desire to discuss what I found out, I just needed the confirmation.
Bruce, once you find out she has been lying, you then hold a trial to prove to her she’s a liar and you know it? I can see you hovering above your accused screaming “Whore!” “Harlot!”. If it feels like you need to follow her to see how she’s pulling the wool over your eyes, then just dump her and move on.
Some people are just controlling personalities, and they snoop for no other reason than to control you. I get out of those relationships QUICK, and thankfully, that behavior usually shows up early on. I had a controlling date who asked me to account for any moment we were not together, who tried to take all my free time. If I told him I was working on the weekends he would drive past my job to verify my car was in the lot. One weekend, I changed my mind on the way to work, I have that kind of flexibility. Truth was, I told him I was working because I just wanted time away from him. Well he called me up to let me know he did not see my car outside my job, and he said it with such a victorious tone, as if he “caught” me. I let him know that my time is mine to do what I want and I am not accountable to him. I then began looking for my way out of dating him. To pay me back, he stood me up for movie date. I was SO grateful, as I let that be the reason why our dating ended. He expected me to call in a huff, but I did not. When he finally called, I told him I wanted to stop dating, as we don’t “get” each other.
But Elgie, why would you want to be with someone who just will not be straightforward about some very important things?
Also it’s not always possible to catch out all their lies, so you could still end up attached to debts that you don’t know they have. Why risk it?
I was thinking about my Dad, actually. He’s borrowed money time and again, and when I asked to sit and review his finances, he danced around and avoided it. He wrote me a letter full of shame about showing his finances to me. So I found out by snooping. I had his SSN and I pulled up his credit report and found out he has piss poor ratings. Since then, I insisted we meet with a lawyer to discuss his debts and possible recourse. I also worked out his spreadsheet of expenses, showing him that the “extra” money he thought he had in February is needed for a bill that will come due in April. This man has no financial savvy and he was floored by the revelation. He does not know I’ve viewed his credit.
I know I will not enter into any legal union with a man without both of us allowing the other to see our credit reports. It’s amazing the reaction I get when I’ve said that to a man, just as conversation. I must be able to talk with my partner about money and know we are on a similar wavelength in that arena.
I agree with Crystal, too. If early on in the discovery phase I get a sense of someone “hiding” facts, that relationship is not going to progress and I have no desire to snoop to “find the truth”….I will end that relationship because to me that is a sign things are not meant to be. Snooping for me comes in to play when someone I have a built up trust with starts doing out-of-character things.
If someone I trust refuses to allow me to take him to a doc appointment, or I can tell they’ve been avoiding a doc appt., or I sense some secretiveness about medical issues, I would snoop. A coworker of mine has a wife who picks up meds for herself at a clinic one day a month. He doesn’t know why and has never asked her for details. I would be snooping if I were in that relationship. I say nothing to him because he can make his own choices. They have a tumultuous relationship, lots of arguing…but he feels it is better than being alone.
Oh, about trust. Trust is not something you give blindly. To say ‘ I trust you until you give me a reason not to’ is unwise Trust is built up over time, when peoples’ actions are consistently honest and not hurtful toward you. I read an article that described each of us as having an internal “trust bank”. Deposits of trust are made into our banks over time, by small deeds, small honesties. So….I feel it is nonsense when someone you don’t know well calls you to task for not trusting them. There is no way you can trust someone who has not deposited loads of trust in your trust bank.
I agree with Crystal, Elgie. If he were prone to withhold info regarding important facts such as his financial status and especially his health, why would you stick around assuming you wanted an intimate, rship with progression? Even if you have your plan B in place you still want some warning if he’s going to his maker anytime soon.
I’d be a third in agreement on this one. I have had at least three on line dudes outright lie about health issues severe enough to prevent any chance at a rship. Always find this baffling as by the time we meet, they know darned well I have medical training and can (and do) suss this out quickly. Ditto for financials though this too becomes evident over time. Indeed most of the local male population is here mainly because they are in financial deep doo doo. A variation on this was a dude who appeared of very modest means but was hiding assets in another state; he was a bullet I dodged quickly but his eventual wife went thru hell. I myself , due to having to pay for my dads cremation outta pocket, take a very expensive emergency flight to be there for his end of life decisions, paying taxes/upkeep on four dwellings, still trying to fix up my house, have a coupla maxed out credit cards. I am fairly high income, am paying them off, budgeting carefully and generally live with much fewer conveniences than many that are far less fortunate. Still, at the moment, I’d be considered a financial liability should a miracle occur and I actually meet someone even remotely compatible. Having a relative ask for loans is a different situation; if they are repeatedly struggling and shouldn’t be, then some tough love may be needed wherein, you insure they have a roof over their head, food, heat, etc but you let them financially feel the consequences of their behavior. This is what I had to do with my dad who became a profligate partier after marriage #2 broke up which also killed marriage #3. Got him a house, helped with repairs, but day to day expenses were his problem. He learned to account for every penny fast.
I’m not a snooper, I would hate it if someone went through my phone or opened my mail, so I don’t don’t do it to others – but maybe because I’ve had things to hide. Although I also recognise it’s because I don’t want to find anything because I might be forced to react/get into conflict. I am a weak person in many ways.
Colly. I wouldn’t call it “weak”. You’re protecting yourself from pain because you know that you can be easily and deeply hurt. It’s good that you’re have enough respect for yourself not to do such. All the more reason why you need to “clean up your act” before you hurt your family. Secrets are very destructive whether your mate knows or not. You know. And as you’ve stated previously, what you’re into now is just not YOU. I believe you, not that it matters. Please hurry and get back to who you’re supposed to be. All the best.
Thank you Tinkerbell, your words really make a difference for me. No it isn’t me to be in an affair, and I haven’t technically been in one since September, but there has been the ongoing problem of failed NC. I really hate having to hide anything, that’s not me either AT ALL. Anyway, its all over now, especially cemented this week by him telling me his wife is pregnant and that he is a narcissist sociopath! I’m just struggling with understanding how I’ve got myself there, how I can stop trying to understand him and bring the focus back to me, and how I can effectively detach myself when I still have to work with him.
Oh, and I have to keep my posting and reading of this sit a secret too – that’s HARD!
Colly, its one thing to know in your mind rationally that its time to turn the attention to you. Its another to actually do it. And thats fine, knowing is step 1.
You’ve already got over the most important bits – you no longer want him, dont want validation from him, dont need explanations etc., so you have no desire to contact him, and if he contacts you again I hope you have it all rehearsed what you say to him so you dont get sucked into a conversation with him that might end up making you feel bad.
Next; I had an epiphany once with a friend just telling me ‘its not about you, that thing he did is totally his behavior, his messed up brain, nothing to do with you’. I didn’t realize that was possible! That someone could do something crappy to me and it have nothing to do with me! That i didn’t have to own it, or I didn’t have to figure out how I could have magicked him into being decent to me because the fact is I couldn’t have changed him, he was who he was.
THAT is one way to bring the attention off him at least. Realize that he is who he is independent of you. If not you, he would have gone for someone else or ‘cheated’ in some other way – e.g. emotional affair, some super absorbing hobby that takes him away from his wife etc. He is controlling his wife by his cheating, by withholding himself from her, and you were a piece of that dynamic. Its not about you, this was not a mutual relationship.
Turning the attention back to you means now that you already have done enough ‘punishing’ off yourself with negative self-talk, pick yourself off the floor, and move on, attempting to do better next time. You ALSO picked him because you were avoiding whatever is going on with your life, and now you need to take responsibility for THAT stuff, not just for your relationship with him.
Live well, Colly. Day by day, make the changes that help you do that. I often feel that these falls of ours make us stronger people, sometimes harder, more jaded people, but thats strength too. I was so naive and so silly and so trusting; I have such better friends now, I am such a better friend now, so jaded helps as long as you keep an open enough heart for good people in your life and learn to recognize them.
You’ve learnt a valuable lesson – not everyone is good for you, and you’re not good for everyone either. NOw you can start with that to find the people that are really good for you, validate that part of your life. That is turning the attention back to you.
Suki,
I so agree with you. You explain it well. Turning the focus around has nothing to do with self punishment but everything to do with moving forward with responsibility and honesty. Replacing reactions with agency. Blame and negative self talk is not taking responsibility and jeopardises efforts to build up agency and groundedness. And yes! It is a truly wonderful moment to really realise the independence of others (and ourselves). I’ve also experienced epiphany moments with that realisation and they were liberating. Couldn’t agree more that this is a daily endeavour and choice. As that silly add for some face cream once quipped “It won’t happen overnight, but it will happen”.
Colly, dear. If you can get to the point of not respecting him and feeling disgusted by what he represents you’ll be much more inclined to not WANT to waste time trying to figure him out. Use the time to figure YOU out. You’ve had CBT therapy so you are familiar with the process of self examination. Ask yourself what deep seated need did an affair with him fulfill? There are reasons why we have low self esteem and certain events in our lives will exacerbate those feelings. I realized in my case I had recently lost my husband who died in my arms before the ambulance arrived. I felt very disconnected from life in general, unable to go on and desperately needed to feel happiness again. I was already falling for him before I found out that he had married his longtime gf. By then I didn’t want to break it off because the sex was to die for and I hadn’t been having any in many years because hubby was not too sick for the exertion involved. Based on what I’ve just said, examine your marriage to determine what is missing. Can it be remedied with the two of you working together? Whatever the case may be adultery only puts you in quicksand wearing weights on your shoes. He is not a nice guy, nor even a decent human being who deserves your caring. Once you start to really believe this, maintaining NC should be easier. You’ll feel that he is lower than the ground you walk on. What complicates matters for you is that you are married also. But you can turn a negative into a positive, motivating factor. He is a dog, but you don’t have to join him in being one also. Sorry for the harsh words but tough love FOR YOURSELF is needed here. I get from your posts that you are really a lovely person. He knows this too and won’t leave you alone especially when he’s been successful in weakening your resolve. NC especially in your situation (he’s at your workplace) is extremely difficult to achieve successfully. But take the pledge. Accept the challenge. It can be done. You’ll feel so much better without having to deal with this messy situation day after day. Do it. Your cyber sister in the struggle for redemption and renewal, Tink.
Thank you Tink,
Firstly you should be so proud of where you are, to get over the trauma of your husband dying and to get out from the clutches of an EU man.
I’m getting there, I can finally see how awful he is. I’ve been realising that he has said things in the past and I had thought it was a strange way of putting things and he couldn’t have meant to sound like it came out. Now I know he did mean it that way and that that way would make total sense to a narcissist. This has really been the eye opener I needed concerning him. As I said to lizzp my struggle is with getting to me.
Thanks for your support
I’m in a relationship with a snooper now, trying to decide what to do. He gets upset anytime a male friend likes a photo on facebook or instagram. He found out I joined a running group on Meetup by snooping and became extremely upset about it (by background, I moved to a new city for work and have almost no friends yet, hence the Meetup). He found out that I once downloaded Tinder my looking through the “purchased apps setting on my phone) (I had already deleted it, too – dowloaded and deleted only to understand a conversation I had with friends earlier in the day about an app that is very popular but I had never heard of or understood so was curious). He freaks out if I don’t initiate a phone call to him every day (we work in different cities but still spend about 33% of time together). To clarify, I’ve never cheated on him and wouldn’t for many reasons including that I don’t want to have that on my conscience. He has said many things that make me think he has wiretapped my cell phone, but then I start to doubt myself and think maybe in my head I’ve drawn out insane conclusions, so now I’m stuck in this weird place where I don’t know if I’m crazy or he’s crazy. I also wonder if he has a key logger on my computer. On the other hand, he’s a great guy. Super nice to me and extremely helpful and caring, to the point where I’m willing to forgive this major red flag because there are so many redeeming qualities. So I guess the question is, can we work through the snooping? Or am I kidding myself?
You’re kidding yourself. He is a controller. If that makes you feel loved, then that is your issue. Controllers eventually segue into abuse – whether verbal or emotional or physical, they will begin abusing you in time.
Confused!!! You must be. Listening to your instincts is not crazy – it is survival.
Why would you accept this totally controlling behaviour!!!!????
Are you desperate!!!!!?????
Go back to Nat’s Amber and Red Flags in older posts – go down the list and look at your own relationship – immediately!!!- do not leave the internet without doing this please.
You KNOW this relationship is making you feel bad – never mind about the redeeming qualities – mine used to get me chocolates and take me out to romantic movies and outings all the time – before he put me in hospital for months that is.
You are in serious danger if you remain in an unequal relationship ie being monitored too closely is a form of serious control by someone else over another and also boundary breaking behaviour – to see what they can get away with. Being made to feel crazy by them – subtly – is also another classic tool to get control over you.
Be very very careful and loving with yourself please – do not let anyone near you who doesn’t make you feel complete trust in them and your feelings towards yourself/ reading of the situation. No one.
Basically confused – why oh why do you not feel you deserve to be in a fully loving, trusting, EQUAL relationship?
Until you do feel those things YOU will not be fit and able to chose a person for a truly loving relationship.
Kidding yourself. Run.away.from.him. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200. Seriously – this man is controlling, manipulative, and isolating you. And he has undermined your sense of reality. Run. And go NC. I think you should tell him clearly; you are snooping and controlling and I am not cheating on you. It is making me uncomfortable and I am moving away. Trust me he is going to think you already have someone on the side – this post should be read by him, not you. You are NOT the first relationship he has sabotaged this way. Previous women in his life might even have eventually ‘cheated’ by turning to some other guy so they could have a feeling of protection when they got away from him – thus confirming his beliefs about all them cheating women. My friend, your sense of reality is totally messed up. Leave this man.
And you should consider what it is about you that makes you so trusting and bending over backwards for other people. How old are you guys?
And find some female friends to back you up. AND tell your friends from back home what is going on.
He sounds extremely controlling, but to be honest, if any boyfriend of mine downloaded a dating app “just out of curiosity” I would dump him. Maybe if he says to me, “Hey, have you heard of this Tinder thing? My friend mentioned it” or something, but I really don’t know why a dating app would be so curious to you? My ex EUM was always doing stuff like that. “Oh, I went on Match.com as a joooooke!” etc. After awhile it eroded my trust so seriously that I blew up over pretty much anything. I felt like a nut. I’m not siding with your ex, but does he know the guys liking your stuff on FB? Do you ever mention them? That was another thing my ex did. He’d have tons of female friends and I could never meet any of them. So of course I was suspicious of all of them! The few he did introduce me to (including one ex-gf) I liked and we got along and no issues. But he always had this secrecy going on. Are you sure you don’t have some of that with your bf? I’m not saying you’re obliged to share everything with him, you are an adult and owed your own space. Just wondering if some of his insecurity is stemming from you keeping him at arm’s length? I don’t know you at all and just running this through my own lens of experience, so I could be totally off base.
Someone who freaks out if you don’t call him every day sounds more controlling than caring. He’ll only change if he wants to. I can only imagine what your life would be like if you move in together, and you come home 15 minutes late one night, or spend an evening with a friend instead of him. Yikes.
Confused
One word: No!
Confused
He’s extremely insecure, which makes him controlling. He could also be up to no good himself and projecting all over you! Either way, he will make you crazy, I would get out now!
Confused,
You’re kidding yourself.
Get out of this relationship immediately.
Controlling guys are the worst of the lot. Except for genuine narc’s.
You feel like you are going crazy, that’s what controlling guys do and it will get worse the longer you keep this ‘relationship’ going. Nothing you do or say will satisfy this guy and your life will turn into a total misery.
Just tell him the relationship isn’t working for you any longer. DON’T tell him about himself and his controlling weird behaviour, just keep reiterating that it’s not working for you and don’t get sucked into justifying your decision in any way. No explanations, no blame or shame only that it’s not working for YOU.
Get away from this man, it will get worse if you stay.
So funny because I had been considering lately if I could hire a private detective to spy on what was really said about me behind my back by the harem & my ex – even though it is now years after the end – after bumping in to a few of them separately in the past few weeks, after not seeing any of them for a while….In my fantasy – so I could out them in public and prove how mean they had been behind my back /how much my ex had truly betrayed me and lied to them and make them feel guilt for what they had done.
Basically I wanted validation for them making me feel so bad with their overly confident and abusive behaviour towards me, based on info my ex was spoon feeding them – as he had once spoon fed me (for which I feel guilty for believing).
Reality is it doesn’t matter what they are all doing behind my back, I am totally uncomfortable with any of them near me and not secure in relationships with any of them and do not trust them to treat and think and act about me with respect and care – and that is enough reason to get the hell out and away from them whenever I see any of them and I had forgotten this – I kept thinking – if only they knew the truth – then they would realize what a great person I really am…
I think I’ll save my detective money instead and spend it on finding people who won’t judge me based purely on gossip and their subsequent set ups – when they know nothing of me in reality and have absolutely no intention of actually finding out, any good things about me at all.
Interestingly I started feeling this need to spy – when I was feeling a little more insecure than I have felt lately and was pushing myself further than what I felt was actually comfortable at the time and under some stress really – and not fully recognizing it at all. I listened to myself and withdrew out of the new groups I’d joined that they were in/ stopped watching them – ‘its non of my business’ I told myself – a BR poster wrote that to me once and boy is that good advice!…. and I found/ am in the process of looking for and joining more new groups/strengthening ones I’m safely already in – that have zero connection to my past – with people who treat me with much more respect and care and where I feel more secure right from the start and not like I’m playing a game of never ending catch up, all the time.
@Oona, isn’t this the hang up we all have? The thing that keeps us from moving on? We still want validation from ACs. “Hey, you hurt me! Feel guilty! REALIZE I’m a good person! Tell me so! REALIZE you should have loved me! TELL me I’m lovable!” Ugh. It’s like it all goes back to childhood, trying to get people who love us when they either don’t, can’t, or can’t show it, so we find others who don’t, can’t, or can’t show it, and set it all up again because, gosh darn it, this time I’ll win! This time I’ll get someone who doesn’t love me to love me!! Bleh. Of course the sad irony is that by constantly demanding love and respect from people who can’t love and respect us, we just continue to feel unlovable. I’m so glad I have moved so far, far away from this repetitive compulsion, but I still fall into that way of thinking occasionally. “Oh look, here’s someone who seems really confused/dispassionate about me. Let me show THEM!” Yuck.
So true, Diane! I have come a long way emotionally thanks to Natalie’s insights and the posters who show me I am not alone in my confusion. But I still have to catch myself to keep from reverting to valuing others’ (particularly my mother’s) opinions before mine, particularly when it comes to life situations. I know my mother loves me. But now I also know she is an entitled controlling narcissistic personality. BR has helped me learn how to accept her love without accepting her control.
Confused. You’re definitely kidding yourself. I hate to break it to you, but this guy has the potential to be dangerous. He’s already gotten to the point where you’re fearful and feeling paranoid because of his snooping. It’ll get worse. He may be nice to you in many other ways but 10 great qualities in him do not erase jealousy and extreme possessiveness. Ask yourself if you can or should even try to live with this. It’s unhealthy no matter how much of a “great guy” he may be at times.
I totally agree tinkerbell – the potential to be dangerous is what alarmed me so much in reading confused post.
@colly.. No more negative self talk! You are not a weak person. You are a strong person in a very difficult situation. Speak kindly to yourself about yourself. Do your cbt exercises. The way you speak impacts the way you think and the way you think is everything!!
Thanks Leanne, hard not to beat yourself up when you’re in situations of your own making…but then I guess it does take two to tango as they say.
He’s STILL calling me. I had said in my “ways of working” email that email should be the primary mode of communication,that if he needed a fast response to text and I would respond to the email (oh sh1t he’s texting me right now!), and that phones should be avoided and only used in extreme emergency. It seems now that we have a daily extreme emergency, and he’s saying why he’s calling – coming up with a work reason. He’s being all too helpful and attentive in sorting out my work problems. Its scary really. He actually said to me this week he can’t let me go – and that’s scary now knowing he’s NPD.
Colly, Block his number from your personal mobile. He must be made to understand that he phones X for all work matters on a work phone. Text messages are not acceptable, he cannot be trusted to be professional. He will understand only when you no longer respond at all. When you do get serious about letting him go (which I don’t think you are quite yet), you will block him or delete unread all texts and hang up every time he calls. NPD or not – and that is just one more attempt by him to keep the florence part of you connected to and thinking about him, and it’s working – his stuff, his wants, needs, demands are his to own and think about, not yours, unless you choose to continue to make them yours in fantasy.
lizzp, it is my work phone he contacts me on, can’t really block, only ignore. The messages he is sending now don’t have personal content, it’s work, but its work plus – too much, not the level of communication you would have normally. He’s mailed me this morning about something I really didn’t need to know (yet framed like it’s important info for me), especially not on a Saturday. Knowing he’s a narcissist is really helpful to me, because now I understand that he is contacting me because he can’t bear to not be in my head, it’s not because he loves me and misses me, he can’t do that – he can only love and miss the feeling someone or something gives him. I don’t want that.
So, as for me, I don’t want him anymore, he can never be what my fantasies dreamt up. The trouble is I’m not ready to let go and face me, I’m finding it so hard, I’m latching onto any distraction. I very very scared that I’ll never get him out my head (or my life to a degree) and never be able to move on. God I want to, I really want to, I’m just terrified.
I think I’m just going to have to grow a backbone and some self discipline and ignore him – and hope the narcissist in him doesn’t take revenge.
Colly, I kind of had the same thing with the ex as in I managed to transfer to a different building but we still had projects together and so I had to endure his emails. That was the deal… I had to endure them. It was generally painful and miserable, for a long time. Part of the price I had to pay for being such an idiot and getting involved with someone at work. And I had to read them, couldn’t ignore them as they were required for my job. But I made it a little game to myself as to how much (or how little) I would RESPOND to them. That was within my control. If he sent me a request for something I was supposed to do, I only responded “Will do.” Or if he was reporting on the progress of something, I would respond “Ok, thanks.” Didn’t need to be unpleasant or nasty. Didn’t want to piss him off. I wasn’t particularly cold. In short, I tried not to communicate any emotional state at all.
Sounds like you think this guy might be dangerous??? That’s awful. Actually, physically dangerous or just petty and vindictive? All I can suggest is that you continue to be professional and cordial, and extremely brief. NEVER respond to anything with a personal comment. Regarding any work contact with him: minimize, minimize, minimize. Figure out ways, as I did, to do your work without input from him. If you hold firm I suspect he will tire of this game and go off in search of a new ego supply somewhere else, because you won’t be giving him the attention he craves.
It is time for you to start standing up straight, and taking yourself in hand. You are not a helpless child. You CAN control your actions and you WILL get over this creep in time. You need to start telling yourself this as an affirmation: “I am getting him out of my system, I am putting him in the past, I am taking control of my actions, etc.” Good luck, Colly. I feel for you. I’ve been where you are. The weeks will pass. Your work involvement with him will eventually end. Hang on to that thought.
Hi Wiser, we live 3000 miles apart so physical retribution isn’t a concern, but doing something damaging to my career is a concern. Then again, he might avoid that in case I got revenge as in his eyes I could probably shatter everything for him. I never would, it’s just not me.
I am responding in a straight, basic way when I have to. In recent weeks this has led to some kind of blow up and drama mid week, through him not getting his attention pot filled or me needing validation. At least my need for validation from him has gone now. I mean what kind of validation could you possibly get from a narcissist? It all makes my blood run cold, it’s painful, but cold and painful rather than warm yearning so good.
So, I’m going to try much harder now and hope he gets bored of not getting his fill from me.
Thanks for the advice and support
Colly. You have received the best advice/support you could ever ask for right here on BR. Don’t “hope he gets bored”, make sure of it. Listen to Wiser and do what she says. Your way has not been effective so far. I don’t know where you are going to get the strength, unwavering resolve and toughness from but you have to find it somehow. How the heck can he live 3000 miles away and you see him so often at the same job? Have I missed some info you’ve shared in the past?
I haven’t seen him since Sept Tinkerbell.
We have always been 3000 miles apart, spent a full week together 24/7 about every 6 weeks through work. The rest of the time it was hours of FaceTime, phone calls and email. There was a chance to be in the same place three weeks ago but I blocked it – so I can’t be a total lost cause yet ;).
I know am so lucky not to be in the same place as Leanne is and Wiser was. I plan on taking Wiser’s advice and am feeling so much stronger and resolved tonight as I face Monday. I’ve been out hiking with new friends yesterday in the beautiful countryside around me, and today I had chance to do some CBT work on myself, so much much better.
You are right there is no better advice than comes on BR.
Colly. Also, the only reason I mentioned listening to Wiser was because I thought what she went through was so very similar to yours. Lizzp and other’s advice have been equally noteworthy, just not like yours. But, as you admit your situation is not really the same as Wiser’s was. Now I find out YOU DON’T SEE HIM EVERY DAY. So you have really dramatized and fantasized this mess more than it ever needed to be. I’ll speak from experience when I say a LDR can keep you hooked because of the long periods in between when you DON’T see him. Now I’m recommending you read “The Dreamer and The Fantasy Relationship, by Natalie. Lizzp recommended it to me even saying I might see myself within its pages. She was right and it helped me a lot. So now that you know, mentally, that HE is bad for you and you say you don’t want anything to do with him, what is it that you are getting from this involvement that keeps you so helplessly hooked. As I said before, there is some very deep need that you essentially must fulfill. and unfortunately you’re finding it with this jerk. If the void is not in your marriage, where and what the hell is it? The CBT exercises should help but perhaps you could go back to the therapist because this is serious enough for you to do just that.
Thank you for acknowledging my triumph over the MM rship I experienced close to 5 years ago. The chief reason it all started began with my extreme vulnerability. He knew I had recently lost my husband and he was also instrumental in my physically relocating from my house to a one bedroom apartment. My life was in turmoil and he saw for himself an opportunity. This is why as I was becoming stronger and wiser I grew to loathe him for taking advantage of my weakness. I also loathed myself for being willing to carry on the affair. It was all so uncharacteristic, as my parents instilled very strong values. It is a miserable feeling to be ashamed, hating yourself and keeping secrets. I was desperate to get rid of those feelings and knew nobody could do it for me. That is when I started CBT with a very fine woman who had a Phd. in Psychology. Around this time I was also incredibly lucky enough to find BR. I don’t even remember how it happened. I’m spiritual and it was as if God or the Holy Spirit handed this website to me. Nobody told me and I don’t think I was searching on the internet. “God helps those who help themselves”. That was true for me then and remains true.
You are beginning to get on the right track, Colly. If you were to step out of yourself seeing someone else instead, you would probably think “Why is she so caught up in this? ” When you understand WHY you’ll be able to free yourself. Yes. It was a load of work I had to do and it took time. I hope that time comes very soon for you. You are sounding better. Forge on, we’ve got your back.
Colly, He’s in your head space more than ever, just in a different way. He may try to take revenge sure, but ruminating won’t stop him if he does. Fearing him and using energy to fuel the drama in your head will do nothing to stop him. It’s over with him and you can’t control what he does or what he may be thinking of doing! Why jump to attention and bow before his diagnosis? I supppose you fear the form this possible revenge may take. Who he might manipulate to trash you professionally? All you can do there is remain professional yourself and let him tie his own noose. Nothing is any different now, the solution is the same, take the focus off him and all this drama. And I wonder if you fear he will somehow let your husband know about the affair. An anonymous call perhaps. Again, there’s no controlling that. Your marriage problems remain as they were prior to his NPD announcement. But it’s back to him and his NPD. And how strange and ridiculous that he should call you up from across the Atlantic with a “hi my wife is pregnant, I love you, and oh btw I have NPD”. The whole thing smells of BS, not just the ‘I love you’. What a loser. There may come a time when you will laugh in his face (well, down the phone line anyway) and hang up when he next calls to broadcast another of his self absorbed News Flashes. Or better yet, give him the heave ho at the first sign and hang up. So you can get on with the more important work of keeping the focus on you and yours. Even to take that first step towards recognising that the fears that plague you really have very little to do with him or his NPD.
Come back to you, hold yourself, tell yourself the truth, that you are a good girl, cry till it feels a bit better. Sooth fear and anxiety until you begin to feel the weight of your body, come back to earth. Be good, loving and kind to yourself the way your are with your little daughter.
I must be the only one on this board who had absolutely zilch zero clue my man was cheating. He was very emotionally available, sweet, reliable, helped me through many dark periods, and we were always together. Never would have occurred to me he would have had TIME to cheat. Yet he managed it with many, many people. To this day I have no real idea how! There was never even a phone call this man didn’t pick up. Anyway, I never snooped on him, always trusted him, always. Had no spidey sense, no nothing. Until the night he said he was thinking about men. Then I snooped. Wish I had years earlier in a way. In another way, maybe you learn these things when you’re supposed to. Sigh.
Diane,
He was just very good at hiding his behavior. He made sure he gave you no reason to believe he was doing anything all the while he was sneaking behind your back. If you trusted him based on his behavior you never had a reason to believe he was doing anything wrong. Thank God he slipped up and told you about his male fantasy because this was the wake up call that all was not as good as you thought.
Stephanie, I don’t think it was a slip up. He was WAY too good for that. He told me because he wanted out. Maybe he didn’t know that, but deep down that’s why he did it. But I really can’t tell you how it messed with my sense of who people are. I honestly had not one clue about this person. I think it’s all well and good that we develop our spidey senses and listen to our gut instincts, and maybe mine was just not developed back then (this was 10 years ago) but as much as I look back and scour his behavior, I still see nothing. Scary!
Interesting. I have a doubt that ‘my’ ex-eum was/is gay too, but never had a chance to verify – we live in different countries now. I wonder though, is it really possible that there is no sign whatsoever? I always had a sense that he was never completely ‘there’ for me, even though I couldn’t say how. Just a vague sense of a transparent wall or plexiglass between us, like I can see but not touch him, symbolically speaking. But you say yours was emotionally available and always ‘there’. I am baffled by this… What about sex? Any clue there? Did you feel passion for each other? I’m a bit worried that this situation can happen again and I don’t see it. Thanks, V.
PS: Diane I sent you an interesting link to a Natalie’s old post in the other thread maybe you haven’t seen it
V: So far as one can tell, he seemed very emotionally available. We went through some tough times, the death of his dad, the death of my young niece, we always supported each other. He wasn’t the most talkative person in the world, but does that always equal gay? LOL. I wracked my brain for a long time but gave up. Far as I’m concerned there were no real signs of anything like that. As for sex, we had it, but it did slow down in the second half of our relationship, but I considered that normal. I have lots of married friends who have less sex than we did. It was my first relationship, so I really had nothing to compare it to in terms of whether we were having “enough” sex. Occasionally I thought maybe he had low testosterone levels but I certainly never thought, “Gay!” As for anything “stereotypical” — ie watched Broadway shows, had a lisp or high voice lol — anything like that, no. He was a very masculine guy with a low voice. Maybe the ONLY clue was that he never checked out other women, but I thought that was just because he loved me. Mind you, I never saw him checking out men either. Haha. But when I hear stories of other women saying their man doesn’t want sex, I always think, GAY. 🙂
Confusing Diane and yes very very frightening if you can’t see how you can avoid and protect yourself from this painful situation again, in the future, it would have a serious impact on anyone’s ability to trust again in a future relationship.
I’m curious, were you able to be your whole self during the relationship ie no hiding of your own feelings/needs and thoughts in order not to hurt or cause any problems?/upsets? Did it feel too perfect a relationship at all? Were there no moments of I’m not sure about this?
@Oona, no I never hid my feelings or anything like that. We hardly ever had big blow ups. Maybe twice a year about something. And that was usually on MY end. He was a very nice, steady, even-keeled person. The ONLY real issue was that a lack of sex did start to get to me and I should have pressed harder on that, but when I would, he would suddenly have more interest in sex. I just thought it was because we were together for so long and it was normal to go weeks without it. And the one time we went months, we had some various people in the family dying, and I wasn’t feeling randy either. Unfortunately it did wreak havoc with my ability to trust people, and trust my own judgment. It happened a long time ago so I’m pretty much over it, but I am still cursed with the knowledge that if someone wants to pull something over on you, they can and will, no matter how much you are “attuned” to red flags. Sometimes those flags aren’t so red.
From what I’ve heard from other women and men who have had this same distressing experience of discovering their partner is actually chasing the same sex – ‘I’m fantasising/thinking about …’ is usually a way of saying, ‘I have well and truly been there, and I am trying to find a way of broaching this with you.’
Especially with men. It’s so easy for them to have casual and multiple male-to-male sexual encounters with zero emotional involvement that they can push it away and simply never admit that this is even a part of their life, until it becomes critical within them to admit to it.
At least he admitted it eventually, and at least you didn’t marry him. I suppose it’s a case of being grateful for small mercies.
@Ethelreda, that is exactly what happened. None of it meant anything to him so he was easily able to push it to a back corner of his mind and act exactly the same with me that he had always acted. Until he could no longer do that and then he said something. And yes, if a guy says he is “fantasizing” he’s DOING! ha.
I have always been a snooper in my relationships and honestly, it is a slippery slope that leads one down a big black hole that can consume you.
I always thought that I was just insecure and granted that is a contributing factor, but now I realise that my snooping has been as a result of dating people who are untrustworthy and trigger off all my alarm bells.
I have promised myself that in my next relationship, if I feel the need to snoop, something is off that must be addressed, and addressed not by snooping, but addressed by either confronting my insecurity demons or really looking at the person in front of me and taking them for who and what they are.
Very interesting post 🙂
Long ago, my friends and I were advised to check out whether or not men we were considering dating had police records. I have not yet done this. These days, I choose to remain involved based on consistency in behavior, whether or not they seem interested, whether or not they respect me and my boundaries… things like that. My money is hard earned; thus, I cannot justify paying a detective 😉
If I feel I cannot trust someone, I actually tell him (or her, if it is a friend). If the feeling doesn’t go away, I make a decision to stay or go – as I did recently.
I won’t lie.. I have an urge to know The Truth, but… I have learned that I may never know it, and must rely on evidence and/or trust myself to make a decision by trusting my instincts.
Yes I don’t believe the urge to know the truth obsessively from the same person – when you already know in reality they are untrustworthy – is a healthy thing in the longrun hense not wasting more time thinking about a detective let alone actually justifying affording one. Sometimes you have to remind yourself of the reality of the situation a few times before it sinks in.
If I found stuff out that they wouldn’t openly share with me – it wouldn’t make me feel better in anyway – it would possibly force me to react and end things/ put serious boundaries in place but the point is if I already suspect someone is keeping things from me, hense the snooping, the point is that, that suspicion is enough to act on and be protecting myself from them in the first place.
What interested me – I felt I was over most of the rubbish I had been through and then suddenly there I was, supposedly stronger, more learned – having a vindication fantasy! – for essentially not trusting people who have blatently ALREADY shown they do not love/respect/are untrustworthy.
At the time I felt the secrecy they choose to exert, is like a form of power/hold they have over me but it is only effective when I am feeling insecure about myself, feel I need to earn their love, respect and trust. It was also a distraction from reality.
The real dangerous powerful secrets, are the secrets you keep from yourself – ie not owning up to the true reality of the situation you are already in – acceptance of it – and not taking it seriously enough – you don’t need to break any of your moral codes snooping in order to get evidence – simply not trusting them is evidence enough that the relationship is not a healthy one for you to be continuing without serious changes taking place.
I would like to share two events that are closely related to this post.
#1. When I was 20, my first love broke up with me one night, and I felt it was completely out of the blue. Of course, there are previous posts on BR that speak to signs that are almost always present and our unawareness or lack of seeing and assessing these signs properly, which was very likely my case… Anyway.. the night before the break up, he told me that he wanted to hang out with a friend (another girl) who was afraid that her abusive ex would do her harm. I trusted him 110% (this was before I learned that people can be shady and have to earn trust). I told him to go to her. He promised that he would see me afterward. Well, I fell asleep. He never called and he never showed. I ended up calling him 12+ hours later, and I awakened him out of his sleep. This led me to believe he had been up all night with her, alone with her in her apartment. The conversation we had led to our break up. To this day, I believe he cheated on me. I never trusted him again. No matter what he said after that, I had a hard time believing him. We had been friends before our relationship, and even still, I could not trust him. The whole thing was ruined. I didn’t need to snoop to find out The Truth. He told me some, and my instincts told me the rest. We broke up… and I share this for those whose similar situations do not immediately lead to a break up.
In essence, no trust, no peace, time to go.
#2. When I was 23, I was in a monogamous (?) relationship with a globe-trotting future doctor. Each summer, he would volunteer with an international medical service for several weeks and then take a vacation in the host country. Once, I worked myself into a panic about him having safe flights. I would call and leave voicemails, just in case he had an opportunity to listen to them. Most times, when I leave a voicemail, I check it to make sure I don’t sound like an idiot lol. One time, I mistakenly gained access to listen to all of his voicemails. I was thinking, I should hang up, but curiosity got the better of me and I listened. Everything was ok – until I got to this one voicemail where the speaker sounded like me – to the point where I *thought* it *was* my voice! The message and her voice sounded eerily like the one I had just left for him! So, she didn’t say anything out of the ordinary, but her message sounded like mine (and I was his girlfriend, so she sounded like a concerned, doe-eyed girlfriend). I didn’t know what to think! He wouldn’t be back for at least one week at that point, and I had listened to his private voicemails. I did confront him about it, and he asked me about snooping. I told him it had been a mistake. He told me the voicemail had been nothing. We went on with our relationship. The End.
In the second event, I didn’t push the issue. I didn’t want to fight or break up. I trusted what he said. I might not have made this decision today. I don’t know.
The point is we have to learn to trust our instincts and the evidence in front of us. Maybe people lie. Maybe they are up to no good. When we learn – or strongly feel – that either is the case, what will we do with the information or the feeling?
Reversal. Thank you for your stories. You weren’t intending to snoop. It was an accident. Then he was the one to bring up snooping and thought so even after your explanation. Guilty conscience. No good deed goes unpunished. You were open enough and above board by confessing what happened and you wanted to believe in spite of what instinct was telling you that he was on the up and up. Did you stay together long after that? Just curious. Your post really brings it home that we should listen to that “litte voice” which is always right. The voice of reason. The problem is what do you do afterward which is why Natalie has writes so well and is such a help to us all these years.
Tinkerbell, I appreciate your response to my post 🙂 This happened years ago. Eventually we broke up when I realized 1) I was last on his list of priorities and 2) that I wouldn’t care if I saw him walking down the street arm-in-arm with another woman. During those times, I had been pretty easy to get along with: I didn’t ask very many questions. It has taken me quite a long time to really start to listen and *trust* the “little voice”, but I am sure glad I have done so. Better late than never!
Yes. Better late never. I often feel sorry for myself because I’ve wasted the best years of my life and now have to play catch up. But, I’m not rushing into a relationship just to have a man. I’m far more serene and grounded as I have no AC’s, EUM,s Narcs, etc aggravating me. Where I am now is a place that some people never get to so I’m thankful.
I was in a very dysfunctional relationship a couple of years ago with a guy who came to live with me. I trusted him and used to leave my computer unlocked so he could use it. It also gave him access to private forums and emails. I realised one day that he’d been checking (and found nothing – there was nothing to find). I locked my computer and set up a guest account and made sure everything else was password protected, something I probably should have done from the start. He never mentioned that he’d noticed I’d done this, of course.
I was angry that I couldn’t trust him. Even though we weren’t getting on, nobody else was the cause of our issues. Once I’d locked the computer there was no more reassurance for him that I wasn’t up to anything and the level of stress in our relationship racked up because I resented what he’d done and was much less tolerant of his insecurity. We would have split up anyway but that didn’t help.
I am a born snooper. It’s actually to do with my work; I need that ability to research quickly and accurately and comprehensively, and to put 2 and 2 together and get 4. I use it all the time, but I do use my powers for good, and not for evil!
But I think I am seeing in the comments a distinction between ‘checking up on a new person during the discovery phase’ and ‘snooping on an established partner’.
There IS a difference, and I’m all in favour of checking up on a new person, and having them check up on me. I am very easily google-able, and my views, ideas, opinions, etc can all easily be found out. If he doesn’t like them, he may choose to stop seeing me, and I’ll be quite happy with that – but it would be good if he told me why, eg. ‘I read what you wrote once about X in Y magazine, and I disagreed with every word and thought you were an ignorant troglodyte.’
But once you are with someone and you’re happy and you trust them, I can see how this is a different matter. But what about when you’ve received a clear danger sign? What then – to snoop or not to snoop? I’ve read enough scary stories here to make me inclined to follow up that potential danger sign.
Wow this article is me. I always knew once someone cheats on you, it is hard to trust again. Not impossible but very hard. My first love in my 20’s cheated on me and it became so toxic of insecurities and doubting. Fast forward 12 years later (relationships since then were healthy), but now find myself trying to make a relationship work after infidelity. I snooped and that is how I found out he cheated on me. I guess he never said we were exclusive but I thought we were. And in the end, he decided to stay with me when the other girl told him to make a decision. Perhaps she was the stronger one, not expecting anything less and I’m the one just hoping for a happy ending. I did all the snooping mention but trying to trust again, it takes time. He is trying to make this work but will it ever? Time will tell I guess. Hard since my bf does not communicate his feelings too well and justs avoid talking to me when problems arises. We will see.
It’s just not healthy. I’m not against it, because sometimes we don’t trust our own gut and judgement. If we’ve been in denial about who we were with to begin with, we’ll also be in denial and blame ourselves when that icky guy feeling kicks in. So, If you’re ready to face your fears and ready to walk out the door when you do ‘see’ what you’re looking for, happy snooping. But if you’re not ready to walk, and face what you know you may find. Don’t bother snooping. Continue to be in denial until the sh!t really hits the fan. It’s your life. Do what you need to do to protect you, and not waste your time on someone who doesn’t deserve it. I don’t believe it’s really an invasion of privacy if you’re really suspecting something is ‘off’. And if you do find or see something, I wouldn’t apologize. For what? Apologize for them being the @sshat you suspected? Oh no… Don’t you let them flip that script! Lol.. You’re the one who deserves an explanation and an apology, but chances are if they were up to no good, they will blame you. So what. Walk, out the door with head held high.
Many years ago when I was about 22 years old I had a boyfriend who used to say he was going to meet a mate (male as he said) on a fairly regular basis. I used to wonder why he couldn’t take me to meet his friend so my girlfriend and I decided to follow him one night. As we were creeping along behind him one night (he was on foot so he wasn’t going too far) he jumped out from behind a bush and caught us. Oops, and after a few words on his part about trust etc we scuttled off home feeling embarrassed about snooping and my lack of trust. That feeling that something was off with him didn’t go away as he kept going out to see his ‘mates’ without me with a rather snarky smile on his face knowing I wouldn’t be following him again. Yeah, that bothered me although I kept going out with him.
He was seen several months later by another friend with another girl and then the truth came out when I confronted him. He was going out with several other girls and none of us knew about the others, he made sure about that by lying, controlling and manipulating all of us. Yes, there were lots of tears on my girlfriends shoulder after all the facts came out.
Trust your instincts ladies, if something seems ‘off’ with someone, there will be something going on that you don’t know about. Guaranteed.
Whether you decide to do a little snooping or following my boyfriend like I did, the writing was on the wall and the relationship was over although I didn’t realise it at the time.
Nat’s right, when you get to the stage of having to snoop, check phones, emails and Facebook or start following someone to see where they are going, your ‘relationship’, if you can call it that, is already over and it’s time to leave without demeaning yourself in the process.
Amen X 1000, Pauline.
Wow. The arrogance. The fact that he caught you trying to catch him sort of proved that he was on his guard against being caught, no? A man who was authentically just walking out to meet his guy friends would not have had his mega-super-bat-antennae out to avoid being followed or seen. If he suddenly ran into you he’d be quite confused and surprised that you were there.
The people who have something to hide act as if they have something to hide.
Hi, I don’t know where to write this so I’ll do it here. I’ve been reading a lot of your old and not so old posts lately and I have to say Thank you so much. In the last very difficult years I’ve come to the same conclusions about practically everything that you write, but never found anybody in person who would agree with me in a substantial way over what I tried to discuss with them. I am literally sighing of relief as I read you. Like ‘OMG so everything I felt and thought about this and that is really true’. It is very painful and freeing at same time. Thanks NML. V.
Welcome to your true self V. 🙂
I find that we all are confessing snooping because of the craziness that being with a narcissist creates in all of us. I guess the message is that we are just trying to confirm what we already know…they can’t be trusted. Funny how I spent so long trying to pretend he wasn’t really who he was showing me and I didn’t snoop for a long time. Then all his lies got the best of me, and when I made the choice to drive by his house, I knew exactly what I would find…another woman. Yes, it wasn’t something I was proud of, but it did confirm what I choose to ignore for way too long. It was the tipping point that helped me make the choice to stop the the abuse and humiliation.
Or we could look at it this way?
– that we are truly shocked and disgusted with ourselves that we chose to ignore, pretend and suppress obvious warning signs, all along
….and so we long for external validation (which we have learned to yearn for) of this in order to finally give ourselves permission to take ourselves seriously and start validating ourselves, living the life we should be living with the loving relationships we really deserve.
Colly/ Leanne, I’ve been following your posts as I’m in a similar situation, although MM hasn’t impregnated his wife- yet!
My instincts told me something wasn’t right, but I didn’t snoop.
I think he has quite massive mental health issues. I only realised that this week. I never asked him to leave his wife, just after 3 years I said I couldn’t do this anymore. In October 2013, he found a flat to rent and moved out. He returned by the December and left in the January. 2014 was basically him leaving and going back. His mum passed away in the September, which lead to what I think now was a nervous break down. I wasn’t with him that night as we live 250 miles apart, but it was apparent he was considering taking his own life. I Managed to get hold of one of his friends who stopped him. He subsequently got councelling and his friends were aware so he had a better support network. Ff January this year. He was adiment that he was in a better place. He left again and we started what I thought was a relationship. he stayed at mine every weekend, took legal advice, booked annual leave at the same time as me next month, booked a hotel room for June for a concert we were going to, I re believed that he was serious. However, every time he leaves, his still wife stops any form of communication with his children (7). The only option would be that he could start access proceedings, but he never did. So last Wednesday, he had become a bit distant from me. I can usually see this coming- he has this really vacant look and is in this really dark place. Then nothing. No further contact since then. I’m certain he has returned to the marital home, but he hasn’t communicated this at all. I Text his friend and just said that I was concerned about his behaviour and asked him to keep an eye on him (after that dark night last year)
His friend must have text him as I got one message from him yesterday saying not to worry about him, he was ok and to have a good night. Wtf???!
So I just sent him a message now, I asked was he willing to be honest and rectify his mistakes right here right now today? I also asked if he was willing to accept that he has health issues and would he seek help? No answer so far which is the same as no I guess. I know I can’t be with someone who has mental health issues AND isn’t willing to do anything about this. What’s really annoying is he works sporadically with me, he’s one of our customers, so can just rock up in my life anytime without warning, and usually try and press the reset button *sigh*
Lalamwah,
So much easier to give advice than take it, but really you do need to leave this man well alone, he’s a selfish flip flapper and will never be good for you. Take all the advice that Leanne and I have received and apply it to your own situation. Please cut loose and keep posting to let us know how you’re soing.
ok, Lalamwah, you’ve been having sex with a married man for 3 years on weekends and recently you hoped you had embarked upon a relationship. This man has not yet impregnated his wife? But he has 7 children? You say he has been suicidal, has mental health issues? You live 250 miles away from him? What do you get out of this? What is it about YOU that wants to perpetuate this madness?
Thanks Colly
I Know, and it’s like I have all the ingredients (information) I just can’t seem to bake the cake! It’s just overwhelming to have someone you love and vice versa go from being in your life one week to totally disappearing.. I really do appreciate your words of wisdom and I will try. It’s just so hard when I know he will be popping into the office over the next couple of weeks and I’m not feeling particularly strong- yet!!
I have just changed his name in my phone to ‘something else’ and googled a rather unpleasant picture of a mans genetalia, should he ring hopefully I will think twice about answering!
Simple P, I just read your reply- it’s not good, but not quite as bad as I explained. We met in 2010 and this would be our 5th year. He has two children who are 7 years old. His office is based in the north, but due to the nature of his work, he is based in the south, potentially being relocated here. I’ve seen him weekdays and weekends since January, when we were in the affair period, over a year ago, I wouldn’t see him at weekends. He’s not a nasty person, and even my friends who know him have said the same. His mental health is certainly an issue and it’s hard to be angry with someone in that situation. That said, I could be with someone with issues, only if I knew that they were taking responsibility for this and getting treatment. Obviously it’s not something that I set out looking for.. Maybe on some level I feel responsible, I don’t know. I really want to focus on myself and get strong so that when he does show up, I have nothing personal to do with him- it’s just still so raw so I don’t know what his being around tomorrow will bring
ok, it’s been 5 years, starting when the kids were 2. Some one who loves you does not do “totally disappearing” It is not love “vice versa” And posting an unpleasant man’s genitals on your phone? This was a sexual involvement. See it for what it was.
Move on. No more contact, married, separated, kids, blah, blah, blah,don’t be in a tailspin over this. Examine your own choices and behavior. Next step a healthy relationship…
Sorry, L, but it does sound like a total madness. And as to ‘mental health’ issues -strangely how they work in their favour. I believe he had a hard time when his mother died but otherwise I think he’s just controlling all of you with his ‘mental health’, including suicide threats. Read carefully what SPleasure wrote and have a long look and conversation with yourself.
i once read on here about a woman who was fed crumbs- probably like many of us who find BR. So she created an email account called crumbs, and automatically diverted anything from the EUM/ MM/ Or whoever he was to the account, so when he emailed, she was like, oh I have crumbs!
In the same way, I didn’t go into details about what my new picture was, because in a weird way, if and inevitably when he does call, the picture associated with his ring tone will hopefully remind me of the unpleasantaries of what has happened. I thought it may help!
I have a ten year old daughter and hold a good job which enables me to provide financially for her. I have great friends and a great relationship with my daughters dad so I hope (and I think my relationship with BR and the lovely people on here) that I don’t come across as a total idiot!
I completely respect what you say, and keep saying it! It’s not just about sleeping together- that was only something that happened fairly recently after the period in November, when I thought and was satisfied I could trust him (clearly a misjudgment on my part).. He’s been in my home, played and met my daughater and I did that not knowing someone could literally switch a button off. Again clearly a misjudgment. But I don’t think somet just based upon sex could continue for this period. I Know by coming on here, BR, and feeding up, being vulnerable and anticipating that people may judge me or offer advice I may not want to hear, that I hope I’m starting a journey to something else.. And one day I will be the person offering advice because I’ll be in a better circumstance to do so.. I had a 6 session therapy just over a year ago and last week and tomorrow, instead of smoking 20 cigarettes and drinking a bottle of wine, Im going for a run. I really do appreciate your replies, and I’m in this for the long term, for everyone’s sake, mine and my daughters most importantly
Lalamwah you are doing really well!! – congratulations you are well on the way to moving on, from what you are saying and yes associating them with references of the truth of the situation, really helps bring reality into the foreground and being creative with this/expressing your real feelings, really helps you also – you seem to have worked it out mostly – I wrote names on my phone contacts, deleted all emails/fb requests etc and carried a long list of ‘why nots’ in my pocket/bag, should I have a weak moment or a moment of a ‘contact’ – it really helped to remind me and eventually I didn’t need any of it anymore, I also added a list of what I was looking for in a relationship and now I just have what I am looking for engrained in my head.
I love the crumbs name! Genius.
Good Luck L! You are doing really well – one last thing – someone told me – take it one step at a time and don’t worry if you have a weak moment – they happen and you will find posts on them from Natalie if you haven’t already – have a few ideas of something positive you can do at the drop of a hat, to help distract yourself with instead.
Remember to reward yourself 🙂
@colly, great work buddy! If you can extricate yourself now, via wiser’s suggestions, etc. this is really the worst of it and you are leaving the shit behind :). Very tough, but very strong for you to do!! And so good for your life, your happiness and that of your family. I like this very limited contact plan.. It should get thru while the 9 weeks carry on hopefully. Then hopefully you can truly be free to grieve, heal and move on 🙂
I am also spending lots of time with friends, which is really helping. And every time I’m home alone and sad, I am turning to guitar and that is surprisingly therapeutic as well. I am feeling much better this weekend, with the odd lull into sadness and thoughts of him and what he thinks of me, etc. But they are already so much less frequent and less painful than they were even a few short weeks ago, probably from being almost one month NC! I can’t believe I am close to that milestone!! One weird thing that keeps happening to me is I keep seeing his name everywhere! It is a pretty common name, but it’s kind of out of hand how frequently I see it. I don’t know if it means he’s thinking of me, or just that I’m going crazy.. Ah!! Hopefully that will stop soon.
But generally Feeling so much better.. I haven’t been analyzing things as much or worrying about it all. I did go get a prescription for Ativan (just to help me get through this difficult first few weeks) and I think that’s really helping me to calm down so I can work on my thoughts. Anyways, to the extent that any of this may be useful for others going through the same type of thing, that’s what’s working for me. Will try to get off the Ativan soon, but I find otherwise I start drinking a bit too much to stay calm, and I really don’t want that.
Thanks again for all your words And support in the last couple months everyone. It hurts colly, to fully shut it down, but it is worth it for your sanity. Hugs xo
Leanne – you should pick up the book The Journey from Abandonment to Healing. It talks about what you are going through and how you think you see him everywhere. Its common during this time.
Leanne, ending any relationship can be extremely traumatic – I imagine having to work with your ex’s and unable to openly discuss it, would be an even more traumatic situation and with trauma your bodies natural survival fight or flight mechanism kicks in automatically – this can make you stressed more than usual, a raised heartbeat pumping blood around faster etc… …and hyper sensitive/alert to any ‘clues’ of a repetition of events…so you will feel you are going to see them in familiar places etc…this is your physical body due to the emotional pain it has experienced – telling you how much you need to stay away from this person!!! Not a sign to remind you of them. Amazing isn’t it!
It will calm down the longer you can maintain non contact – with a few blips – hopefully minimal for you – be gentle on yourself to start with.
Well done for 1 month – you are doing so well – I can promise you this way – even though it is hard and painful at first – IS much, much less painful in the long run than what you were in and is so rewarding in the end.
Lalamwah,
This article and part 2 that follows may help with your situation?
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/mr-unavailables-and-assclowns-shedding-crocodile-tears/
I’d suggest too, that if he ever does get divorced and move out for real, he will be looking for a fresh start with someone else not involved in this mess. Sounds like you’re a secondary character in the ongoing drama that is his marriage with his wife. Hopefully this will be the last time you choose to proceed into a sexual involvement with another woman’s husband now you are becoming aware that actions count and words are cheap. If you want a mutual relationship based on trust, care and respect only date single men or single divorced men. That way too you stay clear of being knowingly or unknowingly complicit in involving yourself in the deception of others – such as the wife and the kids. Oh, I know he says wife is a b*tch or doesn’t get him, or won’t let him go etc etc. That’s his drama, not your business. There is a better way of life waiting for you once you start the work of examining your own choices as Simple Pleasures points out.
Thanks for the link lizzp- it was a good read. Maybe he is using his illness against me and against all of us. I don’t know, I just feel really shocked still- everything seemed to be ok, then he just vanished into thin air- I guess I’m still hoping he will deal with his issues and rock up not mental.. I’m worried that this is going to hit me, and I’m not sure how I will cope.. Don’t worry I have no intention of every getting involved with a mm ever again. I don’t deserve any sympathy but I promise you, I never intended this to happen. When he returned to his home in Dec 13, I left him well alone to continue his marriage. I Know I need to change the focus from him to me, I just feel like I have unanswered questions. It’s like if he could just text or call and confirm either way, that’s fine, I know and can move on. It’s the not knowing! The one thing I will say is he is consistently inconsistent- which is quite scary! Probably for the best, he has had some emergency Ive been told from a different team (I didn’t go looking for this information) which means he won’t be in the office until next week, which I guess is a week of getting stronger…
Thanks for your honest thoughts xx
“I guess I’m still hoping he will deal with his issues and rock up not mental..”
The major *issue* here is the fact that he is married. You will likely be hoping and waiting for ever if by ‘dealing with’ you mean him getting a divorce. But I think I see where you are coming from. It seems that ‘rocking up’ non mental’ translates for you as him being non-mental enough/sane enough/dealing with his depression well enough to see the light, so to speak, and realise you are the one and divorce his wife for you. If that’s the case, perhaps after 5 years (?)it’s time to see what is right in front of you – a married man who is emotionally unavailable. Time to make that shift from fantasy to what *is*.
Yes, you did not ‘intend’ for this to happen – I guess you mean you did not intend for him to not be with you by now? Or maybe initially you just had intentions of an uncomplicated bit of secret fun? Or you didn’t intend for your dream/fantasy to take so long to materialise? Or do you mean that your initial intentions were not clear to you? But regardless, once you got involved (and that choice can’t be said to be unintentional unless he lied to you re his married status) it sounds like your intentions at some point became centred around waiting this out, waiting for him to leave and divorce his wife for you. Do you still intend to wait for him to fix himself up for you?
Natalie has some totally incredible articles re the ways in which EU people use the idea of intentions in their interpersonal relationships. So on the mark, I recognise my self in them at a time when I was more EU than not. And when I slip into bad habits, pieces like these are great aides to my return to self understanding.
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/revisited-the-truth-about-intentions/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/do-you-really-need-to-investigate-what-someones-intentions-were-or-prove-that-youre-right/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/the-truth-about-intentions-do-you-really-need-to-work-out-whether-they-intended-to-hurt/
Excellent posts by NML and thanks for the links lizzp. I’m taking your advice to L. for me too, even though slightly diluted. I hope you don’t talk to yourself that harshly if you made the same mistakes, but that it came that way (IF it really did, after all it’s an impression I’m talking about) because writing has an intrinsic quality of being concise to it. Cheers, V.
V, I’m glad you raised this. It’s funny how the word harsh is used. I used to have a fear of being ‘harsh’ with others when what I actually feared was being on an active no BS diet. I would take well meaning advice to not be harsh with myself as a route TO NOT GOING ON a no BS diet. I thought that harsh and being non-empathetic and sympathetic with myself were the same thing. Now I am less threatened by honest convos with myself and don’t label them as harsh. I try to ask myself honest questions, and when it hurts that is the pain of realising self deception not the pain of harshness. Point is I have more empathy for myself when I’m on low self BS and then can immediaTELY empathise and sympathise with my own humanity and let go of mistakes, misjudgements etc instead of beating myself up with self blame. Hope this makes sense! Not much time for BR commenting at present, but loving your insights as always Nat.
Yes, yes I understand perfectly. I was not sure if you were beating yourself up or just going ‘enough-BS in my life’ which is awesome 🙂 Best, V.
There have been posts recently by women in heartbreak over the “involvements” they have had with married men. I came to BR for a stupid mistake I made, but have followed the articles and comments as it enlightens me more to human behaviour, and the modern life of people younger than me trying to find meaning, value in our selfish entitlement world. For me, I am getting an education. I read the lonely hearts sob hear, I watch a sports program and see the blasting of sex to sell products. I see women promoting their sexuality and sexual availability to attract a man…with high hopes. Women are chasing total strangers on the internet for attention. Makes me sad.
My son is 30, married 7 years with a young son. I asked him, what’s with your peers, they don’t marry? They don’t commit? What’s going on?
He says he can’t relate to his peer group, doesn’t get why someone doesn’t want a life partner and family. He told me (ok he is good looking, educated, smart. accomplished etc.) women constantly try to get attention from him. He makes it very clear that he is married (happily so). BUT THEY DON’t CARE that he is married. They want to seduce him anyway. If my daughter-in-law wasn’t so incredibly wonderful, perhaps he would be tempted to stray, but no he’s not interested. I ask him why he thinks these women want to pursue him. He says, “They are desperate’.”
Desperation? No…..in my view it is more about proving to themselves that they are “better” than the one he chose to marry. Like a real life “Bachelor” competition. I’ve never watched the show, but from the commercials it appears to be a lot of in-fighting among the competitors to “win” the prize of a man. And I think many women live this way in real life.
The reason they want your son is to prove to themselves that they are “better catches” than the woman he chose. If they pull his interest, then they “win”. “I’m better, prettier, sexier!” It’s a sad cry for attention and validation.
Plus a married man, they figure, is housebroken, and clearly a good provider/earner, and must have something going for him if he’s partnered.
This kind of behaviour is actually a form of theft. Think twice, ladies. Think three times. And don’t do it.
Perhaps they are just acting like a lot of men, another notch in the bedpost and boasting to their friends. Why? Because they can.
Some women are quite aggressive about having sex with whoever they want and they will tell you to go mind your own business if you say anything to them. And some women have no morals or ethics.
There’s going to be many girls in this current generation who will never be married or even have children with a partner. Some women will make a conscious choice not to have kids and that’s ok, no problems there.
Unfortunately I do know quite a few women who are now heading into their early 40’s, no husband remotely in view and are thinking sperm bank if they want a child or sleeping with a guy and getting pregnant before it is too late (cheaper option). And they aren’t expecting ‘dad’ to stick around or pay for anything, nor do they want them to.
Maybe some women are desperate and any man will do, to hell with the fact that they are married or have a girlfriend. They can’t see past the end of their own nose (or libido) and realise that this strategy is doomed from the start.
Now women are free to do much as they please, they don’t seem to be handling the responsibility to well, do they.
Pauline, I like your posts but I was offended by what you have written here.
I am in my forties, and have been desperate to have my own family due to being brought up in an abusive loveless family and being in denial/not given the tools to cope with relationships and how to recognise loving relationships and validate myself, until very recently in my life.
If you have had children in your life, then you are a lucky person and I am really pleased for you but you do not walk in my shoes, as I don’t walk in yours, so please do not judge all desperate forties women who would have liked to have enjoyed what you yourself possibly value? – as people who are ‘led by their noses and libido’ and wasting their freedom – as if doing it willingly and for those reasons alone. There is much, much more to it, which you may not know due to having had a child and not fully experiencing what it is like when you don’t and how it can affect you surprisingly at different ages – even though you feel fully lucid.
As for MM and OW.
Firstly, doesn’t it take two to tango?
Next, I have never been the other woman and been with a MM, in fact I consider it a personal turn off, but why is it the single woman is REPEATEDLY primarily blamed for a relationship with a married man??? Almost as if the man has no blame or less blame somehow? Why is that convenient? You yourself stated – when your married son set clear boundaries with the other women flirting at his work – there was no development of a relationship with them into an affair – even when they tried to flirt further.
Last, I have had the experience of being polite to men who were coincidentally aware I was single – and finding out to my horror – they genuinely presumed that meant I fancied them! I am sure your son is wonderful but flirting can be a difficult thing to pin down completely – different people flirt differently and different people recognise flirting differently – what is flirting to one person is being polite to another, what is rude to someone is possibly direct flirting to some and if they are persistently flirting after clear boundaries being put down – then that could be a case for sexual harassment and if your son works in a large firm the boss or Human Resources team should be made fully aware – in the UK it can lead to a sackable offence. I don’t know the legal standing in other countries,sorry.
As a loveless desperate woman in her forties led by my nose and libido – I consider myself very lucky to have learned what I have and am, how to defend myself and express/assert myself and feel good.
I value highly my sleep, my tidy home and my independance, my ability to do what I like when I like, spend my money how I like, leave scissors lying around, exercise and eat what I like when I like, not have an adolescent or adult tell me I’m rubbish or argue with me regularly in the supermarket, have a screaming fit in the middle of a public place, have to cook and clean after someone else, someone who runs off and hide somewhere worrying me half to death, I am able to read a book, write poetry, listen to music, grow things and make pottery when I like, go travelling when I want, out for the evening and socialize when I like, live with who I like, when I like…the list goes on and I am using my new found freedom fully, as any desperate woman possibly can but I would be lying if I said I didn’t wonder and yearn about experiencing being in some form of loving family at some point in my life in the future – whatever shape that may take and however unconventional it may be to others but after the abuse I have endured that will definitely be my decision which as an ultra responsible person I will consider fully – just as it was your decision to have your own shape of family and probably carefully considered your responsibilities also. I am not going to start judging others decisions for the shapes of families they have chosen to have as there are far too many and from what I have seen from my own experience, a loving family does not necessarily mean a mother and father and siblings and cousins and uncles and aunts. Families can and do come in all shapes and sizes and ages. I once knew a child whose only relative was his Grandad and it was one of the most loving and nuturing relationships I ever saw.
I agree SP, there’s an element of desperation, and I guess US women need to figure that out in order to live a happy life with integrity. I was approached by a male friend last year, absolutely gorgeous and there was a spark. He had through the group my number and sent me a few messages. His wife is not well and he asked me if I minded him messaging me. I said that if his wife was happy and there were no issues, then yes, that would be fine. His response was best not to then. Non glad I pulled him up on it as I felt like I had done the right thing, and for him to ask it didn’t seem appropriate.
In the same way, and also due to the responses I’ve had on here today, ive done the following. this guy wasn’t in the office today as one of his children was unwell. My instinct was to text him to let him know that I hoped his daughter was ok. He responded that she was which is good. It also confirmed for me where he was. So I text him and explained that I under that his children come first and if this is the only was he feels he can see them that he must do so, focus on his marriage and leave me to move on with my life. He said he wanted to explain things face to face and I explained that that wasn’t necessary.
Oh yeah, and I booked a therapy appointment for next week.
I didn’t persue him any more than I think he pursued me- it happened. I May be one of those desparate women you speak about but I will hopefully resolve this (may need some support every now and then though) x
SP I meant to say, you’re son sounds like a great man with very grounded morals and integrity. I believe behavior is learned so clearly you did a great job as a parent. I won’t use it as an excuse anymore as it wears a bit thin when you’re nearly 32! But sometimes the wrong core values are given to you from a young age, and it’s a lot harder in your 30s to learn things I think every child deserves from the beginning- I hope my daughter turns out ok and has the confidence, and right values to live a life of happiness and integrity too
Leanne. There should be better solutions for dealing with your anxiety than Ativan. Did you specifically ask for that particular medication? And what happens when the prescription is finished? Will you have taken action to reduce contact with the MM, moreso than you’ve already done, because you can’t go back and ask for more. You need to be able to think clearly in order to perform your work efficiently. I realize you probably want to “numb out” and escape your situation mentally and emotionally but you have to keep your job, right? Can you get a transfer or anything else to get away from him? Would you consider looking for another job? NC is the answer. NC, NC, NC. Do what you can. Learn from this horrible lesson. No more MM’s and no romantic liasions at work. Good luck, Leanne.
I’m confused. I drove by my ex bf’s house bc I had woman’s intuition he was cheating n he was. Don’t u need to confirm something before accusing someone?
I still miss my EUM/assclown. I know not healthy right now but I’m scared I will never find another guy I’m into like him. I know I’m on relationship crack as Nat would say but r their any tips to stop the obsession n get over them?! I’m struggling
Keep reading all the posts on here, as far back as they go Jennifer, keep breathing and trying to stay in the moment, and don’t act out, keep NC.
When the fear comes up, keep knowing it will pass and at the end of all this unpleasant feeling and longing, there will be a renewed strength in a you. A strength so vital, and profound, that he will not even register. He is someone in your past…
Time to get busy Jennifer
If I remember right? Ethelreda the ready suggests writing a list of all your ex partners bad traits and putting it in a box close to hand – everything you had a problem with – every single bad trait.
Try then writing a list of qualities and values that are your own and what you would like in an ideal partner – be brutally honest – write all your wishes down.
Then some people write a feelings journal, read all old posts of Natalies and write posts.
Talk to friends, family if you can.
Distractions – arrange achievable distractions. Something to distract and reward yourself everytime he pops into your head.
At one point – I know it sounds ridiculous but I actually had to tell hin to get lost and make myself think of something else, every-time he appeared in my head. At first it was a nightmare but after a short while it started to ease and feel better.
The golden rule most people seem to focus on is non contact. That means no opening of emails, texts or phone messages. No accidentally walking past their front door and bumping into them as they predictably go to work, no loitering in the hall at work, watching films or programs that remind you of them or your relationship. Put everything that reminds you of them – out of sight and easy reach if you can’t part with – in the bin/burnt if you can.
If you can try some therapy if you truly feel it is becoming an obsession – without delay – it could save you alot of heartache and you are worthy.
Finally treat yourself find all the things that make you feel really good, that you genuinely enjoy – it doesn’t have to cost the earth or result in putting on stones in weight – a bath with candles for example – whatever you enjoy that has no connection to them at all.
You will get over them and think what on earth was I thinking I hope I don’t go out with another person like them ever again because at the end of the day any person who leaves/breaks up with you is not worth one hair on your head, let alone all this emotional energy and care – I know you wont see that now but you will.
Keep expressing yourself on BR. I look forward to seeing you blossom as many others here have. Sunshine and love to you. Keep in touch.
Thanks Tinkerbell, we are completely NC now, which is good but very very difficult to process (grief) hence the Ativan. I do feel like I just want to numb out for awhile while I come to terms with the ending of this fantasy relationship. I am going to counseling, so hoping that will help to improve my thoughts and myself. I just have been feeling so sad and out of control that I needed something to help me get steady (and don’t want to turn to booze).
I have been keeping busy and seeing friends, working on cbt and generally trying to rebuild. I know I can get better again, but thoughts of him and his stupid life keep creeping in. I feel like he thinks I’m ridiculous and is happy to have used me (with my consent) and now moved on with his wife. They are planning to buy a house (I’ve heard through the grapevine) and their baby will be due in the summer. Ugh.
I should be angry at him and at myself, but instead I feel sad and low self-esteem. the clear and obvious consequences of getting involved with a MM. I still feel like such a fool. Day by day to healing I guess.
On a bright note, I met a guy. Probably a bit early to be dating, but it is nice to have at least a slight reprieve from thoughts of MM. He seems really nice and interested in me. How long do people recommend waiting after something like this before dating again?
Hope you are all doing well and having great NC weeks! love Leanne
Leanne. You seem to be doing much, much better. I can imagine it is extremely difficult for you and I sympathize. Glad your back in therapy, “working on CBT”. Your focus should be why your self esteem was low enough to engage with him to that extent. I NEVER thought I could get to s stage of having a healthy self esteem because it seemed that I was born with it. It is possible to succeed. It’s so important because low self-esteem is the catalyst for our negative thinking and consequently commiting acts that hurt us. I am not the sme person I was 5 years ago, which prove people CAN change when they want it enough.
I wish I could suggest a glass of wine instead of the Ativan, but you’re still a working woman so that’s out. You can’t be having a glass or two to fortify yourself and then go to work as someone could possibly smell it on your breath. And, as long as you’re on it (Ativan) you can’t have a drink in the evening, (assuming you work during the day). So work hard on yourself during this vulnerable time. Remember, it takes time but if you want to be “okay” it is definitely attainable.
I think seeing a new guy is a bit premature since you’re not over the MM, yet. You don’t want to use the new guy to help you get over the old one. Many women do that and it’s a mistake. Take time for yourself and get stabilized before entering into another relationship. You can be friends if you like him but keep it platonic for now. There’s plenty of time to get serious. If the two of you start dating, PLEASE pay attention. Be very aware of everything he says and does, 6and if things start to not add up, flush. Be smart Leanne. And, always remember YOU are more important to you than any man. All the best, Tink.
Tink – and Leanne – this is excellent advice, of the sort that should be printed out and stuck on the bathroom mirror.
Leanne, congrats for the NC. Numbing out just pushes the realities into a dark corner to lurk there, though. Are you ready to date again? Wow … you have very low self-esteem and boundaries, and you may wish to work on that before leaping into something else. You want to bring a strong, confident, healthy “you” to the table when you meet another person, whether that’s just for casual dating or pursuing something more meaningful. Another person right now might take your mind off the married guy, sure; but your mind needs to be on the dynamics of how you fell for that guy, who you are, what your boundaries and standards are, and the kind of person you wish to be. And what constitutes elements of building your self-esteem. Numbing out with meds, or with another guy, just seems to prolong the situation you’ve currently been in. Hope that makes sense!
Makes perfect sense to me if not to Leanne. It’s all too easy to escape feelings of being lonely, rejected (and the rest) by accepting the attentions of another man. It stops you having to really process your feelings (which you *must* do) and move on. I am not being harsh, I just recognise this pattern in myself and finding it hard to address. Also, you don’t want to inadvertently hurt the new guy who likes you by placing him as Mr Rebound.
Also Leanne. A reminder. Platonic means keep those legs closed and panties on. No FWB.
I can’t get behind this one. I’ve never snooped for no reason, but when I snooped on my ex-husband, I caught him having an emotional affair with a teenager. We went to couples counseling and he said he’d never do it again. We had young children together and I didn’t want to break up the family, so I accepted that at the time. Second time I caught him at it, we were done. It’s all very well to say that I should have known, but a man can be sitting at home every night tapping away on a computer and saying it’s for work when it’s anything but.
Linden. I took this snooping post to apply more for dating situations as opposed to marriage. Once you’re married it’s a helluva lot more of an investment. If you’re suspicious of an affair I wouldn’t say you should ignore your gut feelings and proceed merrily along drowning out that “little voice”. When a HUSBAND is suspected of cheating, the wife had better do whatever necessary to find out as much as possible. She has a right to know the truth and she needs to KNOW so that she can decide if she wants to continue living a lie or get a divorce.
Tinkerbell,
Investment is involved in all relationships (married or not) so snooping is applicable when one sees the need to go down this route. Then proceed (now informed) with an action and live by that.
The truth did come out (re Linden’s situation above as her suspicions were true) hence the counselling that followed in the first cheating instance (that she knew of), and trusted his word to not repeat the infidelity (emotional is such, and um with a teenager?!). Then cut him off when he lapsed so decision was made as she no longer wished to continue living a lie/supporting a liar/be supported by a liar.
No one is ever that special to sign up and live a lie for…in turn they bring on a slow death for themselves.
Gina. I was expressing my own opinion, only. I made the differentiation because if I suspect my man is cheating and my intuition confirms this over a limited period of time, I’ll confront him. If I’m not satisfied with his verbal response and subsequent actions, I’m gone. I’m not about to go snooping as per the myriad forms mentioned above because I just feel that I’m better than that and he does not deserve me. I don’t have the experience of years in an unmarried relationship. If I did, I’m still at a stage in my life currently that I don’t have the time or patience for the BS. Now, in a marriage one cannot just end it at the first sign of trouble. As I just said, a WIFE has the right to investigate. Again, MY opinion. In Linden’s case I feel she acted appropriately by leaving as he was found to be repeating the same behavior even after promising to stop and after attending marriage counseling for same. In my initial post which you may or may not have read, I was guilty of snooping. Obviously I too had a different opinion back then. I was in my twenties and my self esteem was no where near what it is now. I also acknowledged that this is a controversial topic and that there are many differing opinions on the subject. Thanks for you input. I hope you have been well. Tink.
Tinkerbell,
Personal opinions are rampant on this site which is always a very good thing. We are here to support each other don’t forget and differing of opinions is precisely just that i.e. the alternatives are put out there (I’ve been burned badly myself which is why I visit here often). And opinions given are then open for response/s so wanted to point out snooping is applicable in all relationships married or not (should the decision be to go down that route) hence this snooping content/post can be extended to marriage as some posts above and below have done so in their experiences shared.
When someone does not go into detail about an issue or opinion initially then that is all a responder is able to go on. I have made comments to some initial postings in the past and they have come back with more to their story…that then does put things into broader perspective. Thank you then for sharing more of your opinion in this matter.
Snooping is misplaced when the one doing so is not needing to do so due to their own personal trust issues or whatever imagined fear they have of the relationship (life in general) when the partner is legit/mutually on board. The confrontation (walking away and being done equates to that) is necessary when the partner is actually doing something on the side (triggered by instinct) and being pre-informed (results of snooping/due diligence) helps especially when the perpetrator most likely will deem the accusation/s as crazy followed up by more lies/side tracking the issue. Well, actually no because here are all the facts thanks to my snooping (which I regard more as due diligence). No-one is ever going to openly admit any side liaison unless all the facts (along with a strong back bone to do so) are placed before them. Even then perpetrator may go into defense mode and deny, deny, deny still.
A BR post above did not even find out after years of blissfully living with someone that he wanted out all of a sudden. His behaviour in the relationship all those years gave her no indication that things were out of place and in the end (after he opted to leave) it turned out he was into men. So verbal response and going by action can be good indicators however not full proof given the above example at least.
Julia Hartley Moore is a private investigator/author (paid snooper) and her dealings with many women (and some men who seek her help because of their suspicions) clients reveal 95% of women (given all the hard evidence collected) end up staying with their husbands/partners (who continue their infidelity in the marriage and in some cases with the wife/partner knowing) hence the die a slow death on their part comment I made above.
I’ve not written for a while, but whenever I need strength I come to BR, to hear Nats words of wisdom and for the support of others. When I was married I had to snoop on my husband because I could never get the truth from him. That was never i my nature & I had not done it in previous relationships, I really changed all my core values when I was with him & now I realise he was a controlling person, even tho not clever in the academic sense very manipulative & would flip things around – can u believe I fell for the “well I can’t trust u if ur going to snoop” line after presenting him with evidence? Ha what a loser & user he was. Finally all came out when the other woman’s husbsnd rocked up at my door. Anyways I learnt so much & since we split up I can only think I have escaped a bullet he was boring as bat$hit too always focused on himself. One more thing I just learnt here on BR is I really need to sort out my divorce ASAP, I could be giving the wrong message that I have not moved on when I have, it’s been two years since we separated. What a wonderful 2 years, for the first few months I still saw quite a bit of him, but now only for our daughter (she seems well). Ah it’s an absolute relief to have him out if my life, I don’t need to snoop anymore but I feel I had to I that relationship – I checked phone email. It gave me the info I needed, but I wish I had acted on the info earlier & not given him more chances. It’s a certain type of person who hides information & u gotta get out of there ASAP. U will know…..eventually but in general I don’t approve of snooping. U won’t have to snoop if they are a caring considerate person, I’m sure.
Oh I did I mention now apparently he wants to reunite, and he has changed…..and recently told me not to get involved with anyone else & that he could keep tabs on my phone. He is definitely a controlling, horrible person. I wish that he would be the amicable person & say, I’m sorry I know what I did was wrong & now I’m going to leave u to have a nice life & I will not bother you anymore & I will be a good Dad teaching my daughter good core values. But no he persists with stupid txt msgs about getting back together, try’s to control & snoops!! Fortunately I do not get drawn in to it too much, but I often get frustrated at how injust it all is. Gotta get the divorce sorted very soon – it was my New Years resolution.
Genki,sounds like an emotional stalker. Ugh, and good for you for running!!
Also I do agree with Rewind and although I take responsibility for my actions I feel that my snooping was a reaction to his dishonesty. So I don’t feel too bad about it. I definitely agree if u are at the point of snooping the trust is already gone & nothing good will come of that relationship. I don’t feel that I will continue to snoop in future r’ship. I’m hoping I’ll see the signs earlier & escape
Thank u ladies. I truly hope one day I feel apathetic towards him. I don’t want to love him, hate him–I just don’t want him to matter anymore. It’s so weird how we project our feelings onto them. It’s like I still can’t comprehend he didn’t love me although he treated me like an option. It’s also so weird bc deep down inside I know he doesn’t deserve me at all!!!!! Logically I believe that, but emotionally I feel unworthy.
I never had to stoop down to snooping, but this was the first time ever, and that’s because he suggest that we not call each other often, because he was not a phone person. For some reason that didn’t sit well. Even, I noticed his distant behavior, and sure enough there was someone else. I feel/felt, so low that I stood by this asswipe, paided for his phone (he was not working), and this is what happened.
I resorted to calling a PI after my ex husband denied his affair. The PI was going to charge me two thousand dollars to place a gps device on his car. I mulled it over and decided it would be better spent on a down payment to a new apartment and moved out a few months later. Those commenters who say if you resort to snooping that the relationship is over are unfortunately correct.
The other night my phone died and I couldn’t sleep. I picked up my man’s phone to use the Internet. BOOM!! Fat ass porn was all over the phone. I’m torn.. if I was getting the “love” I needed and wanted I wouldn’t be as upset. He is mad a me.. Idk what to do.
I’ve only snooped once but I feel absolutely terrible about it. I didn’t want to, but I was in an emotionally abusive relationship with someone who would constantly post abusive things about me on their blog. The extent to which I snooped was looking through the “drafts” or direct messages for some sort of history or thought process not shared with me & to delete whatever malicious thought they were about to post next. And as beneficial as this might’ve seemed for me, it really wasn’t. Because now I’m left with not only trauma from an abusive relationship, but now I have to repair my self-esteem/dignity even more. Not only does my terrible ex see me as the villain they’ve always thought I was (more fuel for their fire), but now I do too because I’ve crossed my own boundary. Sure, it felt great for that moment, but I’ve learned that any pleasure made in a moment in an abusive/unhealthy relationship is just for that moment alone. I’ve picked up unhealthy habits being in these unhealthy relationships, but that doesn’t justify anything I do (just like it doesn’t justify anything they do/did). If you’re one of those people who can not feel guilty for snooping, good on you; I sincerely hope to learn from you one day. But I still feel like I have a responsibility to be good to me, regardless of how anyone else is acting, and snooping doesn’t feel good to me. For once, it actually IS about me. And it’s about you and how WE choose to love & respect ourselves, despite circumstances. We know they’re always going to be lousy people, so let them be. But that doesn’t mean we have to be too/by association. Its hard to stop once you start, and its even harder to not let that power you’ve been denied for so long all go to your head. So, do yourself a favor and stop while you’re ahead. Your power has already come from recognizing their error(s). Take it and run with it. Either way, even if you still struggle with snooping or are having trust issues, not being in that/a(n unhealthy) relationship still makes you stronger than, and albeit “better” than, them. Keep rockin’ your recoveries. I’m right here with yall 🙂