I got talking with someone recently who revealed that they’ve just spent over a year – that would be over 365 days – researching what they thought may be their ex’s issues, because they wanted to clarify whether he had a ‘condition’ that they could pin his behaviour in their unavailable relationship on. Aside from a misappropriation of energy that would be better spent on herself, you do have to wonder why it’s so important to practically get a Ph.D in another person just so that you can rest assured that their behaviour wasn’t intentional?
If immersing yourself in researching another person and working up a diagnosis is familiar to you, there comes a point when you have to have an honest conversation about what it is that you’re trying to achieve and more importantly trying to avoid, because unless you’re going to use the insights you gain from looking at your relationship and the actions and mentality of another person to ultimately gain a better understanding of yourself and apply the lessons learned, why bother?
There’s also another type of research project you might undertake – proving to yourself and the other person that even if they like to think that it was you that did ‘all’ of the chasing or had ‘all’ of the problems, that you have evidence that suggests otherwise that you’ll be ‘presenting’ to them.
Now I get it, because quite frankly, it gets on my tits when people rewrite history and try to make out like it was one way traffic that had nothing whatsoever to do with anything they said or did, or that every person who doesn’t jump to their beat or has needs is a “psycho”, or even claiming that any issues in the relationship were the fault of the other party. You can get caught up in seeking a retraction, telling them all about themselves, and even trying to tell others, but there hopefully comes a point when you recognise that the point of knowing the truth is to set yourself free with it, not to clobber the other person with it and tie them to a chair to force-feed them reality.
You can investigate what someone’s intentions were, although really, it’s like trying to crawl inside their brain and control the uncontrollable. You can also play Columbo and have your hunch and spend an ‘episode’ of your life working your way through clues and trying to catch them out while pretending to be absentminded in a dirty mac and a cigar.
It’s all about the net result though – when all is said and done and you look at reality which is reflected in how the relationship currently stands (not what you’d like it to be or who you think they could be if only they realised the potential you’ve forecast), or you look back on how things were, what do you have?
A mutual relationship with love, care, trust, respect, shared values, plus the landmarks (commitment, progression, balance, intimacy an consistency)? Or a messy mix of illusions, pedestal building, fleeting highs, and crushing lows with someone that you claim amazing ‘chemistry’, ‘connection’, and that you have “so much in common” with?
When all is said and done, it’s not about proving what someone’s intentions were – the results speak for themselves.
Intentions are all about doing something with conscious purpose – whether a grownup does something intentionally or not is by the by, especially when it’s not a one off and contextually forms part of a body of evidence that suggests that whether they do something on purpose or not, they do not have the integrity, conscientiousness and level of personal responsibility that could ever add up to being part of a healthy mutual relationship.
It is up to each of us as individuals to prove what our intentions are with ACTION, so don’t waste your time trying to prove theirs.
What we do and don’t do (or say and don’t say) impacts others. If you are not inclined to act responsibly both with yourself and others and you are even at conflict with values you profess to have, your mentality, actions and what comes out of your mouth will be out of sync.
Hard as it may be to hear, part of the reason why it can be attractive to get a Ph.D in someone else and pin a condition on them, is because 1) it’s avoidance of addressing your own behaviour, 2) a vacation from having to actually make your own life your purpose, and more importantly, 3) giving yourself an opt out, because if you can say that something wasn’t intentional, you can be tempted to play Florence Nightingale again, or at least believe that you are helpless and that everything was outside of your control.
If you’re going to investigate the crappola out of someone, at least relate what you discover back to you, not so that you blame yourself but so that you can gain insight about why they were attractive to you, or whether you are catering to a dynamic due to unhealthy behaviour on your own part. It’s also important to heed the topline information so that you can get to the bottom line – it was unhealthy, or you were incompatible, or whatever, so this relation-ship could not sail.
Ironically, if you have been in an unavailable relationship and you’re going around saying that all emotionally unavailable people are narcissistic or are suffering with undiagnosed mental issues that you’ve spent your time and energy googling, you’re casting a stone at yourself, because unavailable people get involved with unavailable people. Nobody who is genuinely available spends a significant portion of their time and energy involved in one of these relationships or researching the other party.
And yes, you could go to great lengths to prove that it wasn’t all you and that on June 9th 1989 they said X or April 17th 2011 they did Y, as if “Ha! I’ve got you sucker! You think you can act like this whole thing was in my imagination or that I’ve been doing all the pursuing? Think again! I’ve got proof! Now what have you got to say for yourself?”
As is often the case when you tell someone all about themselves, you’ll either be met with silence, a blank “What the frickin’ what?” stare, aggression, or them marking your cards as a “psycho” or even a “stalker”.
Convincing and campaigning isn’t attractive – the person whose intentions you’re trying to prove or who you’re trying to prove as ‘wrong’, is going to believe whatever they want to, so all they’re going to do, is take their intentions and cock up another relationship, or remain deluded and keep winding up in the same situations with their delusions.
You on the other hand, if you’re willing to look at the net result and grow out of the lessons you learn from understanding why you stayed and continued once it became evident, actually get to avoid repeating the same issues. The longer you spend investigating or proving, the further you are away from this.
Your thoughts?
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Wow. I used to know someone who did this. In fact we once spent an entire brunch going over the possible psychological problems that her booty call must have that were keeping him from being her boyfriend. She also had some issues, which is why his having mental problems was the ONLY explanation she would accept. She had a very high opinion of herself and often assumed that any man she dated was thinking of marrying her. So your point about casting a stone at oneself is spot on.
There is another aspect to this: All this analyzing and decoding of a man’s behaviour is very much a part of women’s socializing. It’s hard, as a woman, to opt out of these discussions and still fit in. I’ve known women who literally have nothing else to talk about, but mention the slightest blip in your current relationship and they light up! Heaven help you if you are the woman who tries to wind down the topic of “what did mean by that” and shift it to, say, the Occupy movement or the progress you’re making in your night-school course in computer science.
I think women need to take more responsibility for not engaging in these games and discussions in the first place.
Amen to that pinkpearl : )
Let the church of the spaghetti monster say RA-men.
I just have to say you rock Natalie. Every week you hit me with the truth and I love you for it! It’s hard to see what you’re in when you’re blinded by choas…but every article I get a bit stronger and a bit wiser and laugh at myself at little more. In almost every article I see a piece of my deluded nonsense. Growing stronger and more self assured everyday…some days are better than others but I wanted to say thank you from the bottom of my heart!
Ladies lets not investigate, rewrite the history and complain complain complain about our exes till our dying breath. I know I’ve been quite guilty of that myself but after awhile you gotta just move on and get a life.
Agree except for complaining, Sometimes we NEED to do that because for so long we had them “Way up there”, to see the TRUTH that he is NOT as great as we had hoped for, wished for, and led on to believe. ( To get it through our own heads he is to be avoided, to never go back. ) and then we move on from that… for some it may take longer, but the goal is the same, To get the hell out of the PAIN and back into being OKAY again without him, and whatever dreams we had or were fed .
Brenda, I am starting therapy today and that is exactly my goal. To let go of my pain and move on. I want that creepy selfish SOB out of my heart. I want to feel OK again in my own skin. I want to eventually stop taking my anxiety meds.
This is great stuff, Natalie, and really gets to the heart of what we can do to recover and learn from these destabilizing Emotionally Unavailable relationships.
A little while after the ex and I had broken up early last year, once I’d started to realise that it wasn’t all about me or something dreadful I had done to put him off me, I spent a frantic period of time busily Googling all sorts of articles about various degrees of psychopathic behaviour and commitment phobia etc etc etc. It made me feel better for a time to shift all the blame completely the other way, from myself onto him. After a few months of reading BR and seeing a person-centred therapist, I began almost imperceptibly to take a more balanced view of the whole thing. Nowadays, I am able to acknowledge that he and I were not compatible and had a co-dependent relationship with unhealthy dynamics that were actually a repeat pattern for both of us. I am now learning to take my share of responsibility for the failure of the relationship without blaming or beating myself up about it. I think when we are grieving the end of a relationship and the death of all our hopes and dreams for it, it is a natural part of that process to turn the blame onto the other person for a while – I guess maybe it’s to do with the “denial” stage. I’m taking it as a sign of progress that I can now say out loud that BOTH of us had issues, and that I’m largely able to bat his issues to one side (since he is no longer any concern of mine) and start looking at what I can do to address my own issues – mostly to do with poor self-esteem – that hopefully I CAN do something about.
Thanks so much for your continuing guidance and help with so many aspect of the ongoing work we’re doing on ourselves, Natalie, it’s deeply appreciated.
Glad to hear! x
Radio and Katie,
I’m with you. I remember in the early days of the first round of NC when I found BR by trying to investigate his intentions, irony intended. His diagnosis of being a married, cheating, lying EUM/AC was pretty easy. It was Natalie’s message regarding focusing on me and my diagnosis that caught my attention and kept me coming back. I vividly remember discovering that I was UNAVAILABLE too because unavailable people get involved with other unavailables. It was a shocker back then. Now, I can chuckle a bit too Katie. Duh. I also remember one of Nat’s patient, kind, and no nonsense responses explaining that you can’t have a relationship with a MM. Oh, duh. It’s been an up and down journey learning from my mistakes. I was trying to avoid me by focusing on him but thanks to Natalie and the BR community, there was no way around owning my responsibility in knowingly being an OW. As I investigated the crappola out of cheating, I couldn’t help relating it back to me and the unhealthy dynamic due to unhealthy behavior on my part cos I was cheating too. Duh times 110. Even though I wanted to wrap myself in the fur coat of denial and claim that I was helpless. Nope. I was a willing OW, a FBG, and an option that cooked dinner and had sex. I agree Radio, although our situations are not the same, I can see that we BOTH had issues but the only one I can deal with is me. He’s got his own issues and I can’t fix him. I can barely fix me, although I did tie him to a chair and clobber him with reality on several occasions when I broke NC. Yup, I got the what the fricking what stare and the classic line, “I’m so messed up”. The last time I got that line, I actually listened. If he’s telling me he’s messed up, he is! Natalie, thank you so much for sharing your gifts. You are a truly gifted person and geez can you write. You are as clear as a bell.
PS. Totally loving the Dreamer book. Whenever I think something doesn’t apply to me…it does. Nobody who knows my work persona would take me for a dreamer and since I’ve relied on external validation, I didn’t think so either. Another aha moment. Thank you. I can really see how the relationship dynamic can be different from the work dynamic.
This is a great article, Natalie! I completely agree with you. Many times we engage in this behavior as not to look at ourselves; however, for some this can serve as a marker to trust your intuition. You know when someone is pulling your emotional chain. We keep engaging to either win the game or needing validation. People can only do what we allow them to do. There’s nothing wrong with loving, just love smart not stupid. We’ve all been there.
Ummm Natalie do you realize this is how most of us found your website? LOL
Guilty! All that endless googling search words like, “Why won’t he commit?” landed me here. Glad for it, too.
I remember myself buying about 6 or 7 books like ” How to mend your broken heart”, “Men are from Mars etc”, “Why he is not into you”? haha! It was quiet embarrassing, I became an expert on AC-behaviour, but still it did not stop me to meet another AC and repeat all my mistakes again, except ONE! I leaned that I WOULD NEVER LOSE MY DIGNITY and PRIDE, and never going to look for answers after break up, I will just disappear without explanation, like they do!
Yes, that´s the way to go, Little Star! I´ve arrived at the same conclusion, just disappear and hopefully leave them wondering… That´s what I did, and I reached my one month of NC last week, yay!!
That is exactly how I found this website. I typed in “the other woman” which led me right to Natalie which has saved my sanity & got me off the research obsession. I’m so much stronger now & in a much better place.
So true!! I googled “narcissist boyfriend” and the first page I read was about Narcissistic Harems. I laughed out loud and it made me feel like I wasn’t a freak for thinking these things.
The sad thing is, I was googling about my Ex Ex boyfriend. EUMs have a way of sticking with you!
I’m focussing now on meeting a nice guy, who will love me with consistency and who I can love truly and with consistency. Nat, as always you are so right, that you cant just diagnose the other partner, because of course, we have a role to play too. My role was sticking with an EUM because I thought he represented something unattainable that I should strive oo, that he was thrilling and exiting, that when he said he loved me it was more thrilling than when other normal people told me they loved me. Why did I crave this? Because I was seeking drama and validation, and the more I think about it, I knew quite early on that he wasn’t right for me, but I couldn’t let go of the hope that one day he would be. That one day didn’t come in 4.5 years, and now that he is back in touch, he can’t show me any reasons why it will come, and I am seeing him for what he really has to offer now…. not enough.
LOL yup, I think I googled “emotionally unavailable” and this site was near the top of the list. But the scary part for me was reading through the descriptions and finding that while I was diagnosing him, I could also see that a lot of the same stuff applied to me in regards to emotionally unavailable people. It was my first step into understanding what was really happening and the real reason why…
same as the rest of you ladies, i googled emotionally unavaible men, stuff on getting over a heartbreak. read thousands of relationship books. at this stage im trying to get onto the ‘disappear’ path. where by i react the same way as Mr EUM and im constantly coming back here when i feel tempted to send a 4th text message in 4 months…..i should note that as per article, i have spent my whole time analysing and profiling mr EUM , so i feel i have graduated with a phd in MR EUM’s behaviour towards me..*sigh* something not to be proud of
Yea I googled ’emotionally unavailable’. Funny I ‘thought’ I knew what it meant until I came here and got the real deal…. I am so glad I found this website, that particular google search didnt go any further than one time because once I read the very first post of Natalies, I bought her book and the searching ended.
Busted! I am guilty of this. I don’t even like to think of where I was emotionally and mentally when I was willing to spend hours reading books about bipolar disorder, narcissism, verbal aggression, psychological abuse, etc to try to name and validate my experience of more than one man.
Ironically, it took a lot of navigating myself through the murky waters of the mental health industry before I got to a place where I stopped trying to diagnose myself (in that years-long search for what was wrong with me?) and consequently stopped trying to diagnose others.
For me, a twelve-step program helped a lot, because no one there was saying I had this or that “disorder”, everyone was just a normal person in a recovery process that had no finish line. Without the finish line, I began to see that I needed to get relationship-healthy while still being in recovery. Even if I did have some family-of-origin issues, they would never be an excuse for not working on my shit and becoming a good potential partner.
Once I saw that, I became less willing to diagnose and excuse behaviour in men I dated, or believe that we could be happy if he would just realize that he has X disorder and he needs some therapy. Gosh, I shake my head now at some of the conversations I had. These guys could indeed use a ton of therapy, but how blind I was to think it was my job, or even something I should want, to try to get them to go!
That said, I suppose I’m still working on my fifth PhD in my own family and still try to name the dysfunction as if once I nail it, I’ll know how to act so that it will all change. Less so these days, though, thankfully. What a super post – it totally zones right in on a recognizable behaviour!
I am so guilty of this even currently with my boyfriend of 6 months. My question and thought is, which leads to confusion for me, and I still battle this whenever in relationship. How do you know you aren’t supposed to stay and learn your lessons with whomever you are with, rather than ending and constantly getting a new face to work with. I find that people leave relationships without learning the lessons. Is that helpful? Wouldn’t it be better to stay and learn. For example, I attract EUM and looks like I have again, then I ask myself, why? Why this again, and do I need to really look at what comes up and work with it within myself, which will be very uncomfortable, but necessary? And the only place I get triggered is in relationship, so I need the relationship to trigger it so I can work on it. I know it sounds like I attract this to work on my stuff, but I really don’t do it on purpose, as I’m sure others don’t. I realize that I also must be EU since this comes up a lot for me. My question is when is enough really enough? All of us here want everything we want, but are we really ready for it and are we avoiding being ready by running from one relationship to another. OK, that’s my pattern, and I’m sick of it. I’d like to hear other people’s experience with this. Thanks!
chloe-
i think its exactly the very natural process you’re describing. at some point as we go along, when we’ve grown to a certain point, i think we look at recent history, decide we’ve made some version of the same mistake enough times, get sick of that way of being, and then add conscious changes to the subconscious ones we’ve made.
i have definitely blundered around mostly blind to what i was doing, gotten a bit wiser, and then purposely reassessed how i was going about things and what i was choosing. and then the cycle starts again – go out in the world, do stuff, learn, consciously change it up again.
one thing i have noticed – my gut is getting better, the signals are clearer, and when i start participating, or even thinking about participating, in something that is unhealthy or old thinking/behaving, it literally makes me feel sick. i am much more naturally opting out of stuff i would have been inexorably drawn to in the past because my gut alarm goes off and screams that’s unhealthy! no!
one thing i have to admit that i discovered, like … yesterday – i am definitely more EU than i knew. i thought i was all heart on my sleeve, and that that was my problem, but no – if i keep choosing unavailable situations, then i MUST be EU, because i’m opting out of available ones. and now that i’m more aware of it, i can work on it.
and we all get triggered, possibly only triggered, by romantic relationships. my therapist has literally told me, no, i want you to date, your progress will keep accelerating if you keep dating. i felt little guilty because that means that i’m kind of practicing my personhood on guys…but guys don’t have any problem practicing on us. and i’m getting MUCH more responsible with how i go about things, more aware, more respectful, so as you keep growing, it all keeps getting better.
it sounds like you’re doing it right.
Chloe,
As attractive women, we are naturally going to attract ALL types of people. What matters is who we choose to engage with, and whether we heed the red/yellow flags from the very beginning.
By eliminating the crap right away, we build our boundaries and our trust in ourselves, and create space in our lives for something better.
Chloe,
Some recommend to take some time off dating until you´ve sorted out your issues.
In my case, I feel NC is giving me a lot of space to look objectively at the relationships I´ve had and to find out what I want out of a partner. It is very easy to get things confused when you´re still around someone that is just not good for you but whom you´re attracted to. If your self esteem is low, you´ll accept any crappy behaviour, and this in turn will lower your self esteem some more so it´s really a dead end road. Because even if you end that relationship, you´ll be more vulnerable to fall into a similar situation again – just because a bad relationship will leave you insecure of yourself.
If you find yourself repeating a pattern of EU relationships, get out of the cycle by being alone for a while. Work on yourself, learn to love yourself, and only then will you see that you´re attracted to healthier people and you will attract them as well.
Chloe: even when you’ve learned lots of lessons, you might still get triggered with an available guy. The only difference — you’ll work together to figure things out. It won’t be an uphill battle. With the EU ones, you’ll work against each other.
I too have done this countless times but I believe for myself it was to teach myself what to look for, (and not make the mistake again, and for this I have experienced growth, although my tale may not sound like it) It was also to find the common thread, of the last five in a row!, Yes, five in a row women that I found myself attracted to who did not work out for one reason or another. I had to ask myself, ‘Why?’, Why would I have spent the past four years, chasing rainbows and tollerating poor behavoir all the while partaking in the poor behavior myself. (aha moment #1) ‘Trying to fix someone’ (of whom neither wanted nor needed me to fix them and playing analyst with them over their issues while completely ignoring mine, rings true and deep, #2 aha) I wanted to find out what it was that I was continuing to not only be attracted to but attract with each of these brief relationships. (the longest of which, almost a year, while the others were 6-8 months). You nailed it Nat! I was unavailable too and didnt even realise it. I used the relationship to avoid my own stuff, issues, personal responsibilities and was way too quick to take the focus off me and put it onto them..(uhhh a little co-dependence still leaking in Im seeing? yes.) While I so wanted to be with a partner, to find someone who also wanted the non- existent, fairytale, ideal relationship, and boy, was ‘that’ easy to find, looking back.( aha #3) Instead of being the partner I wanted to be. (reread that sentence) I was diluding myself in so many ways. To believe that ‘it’ existed, and that I had found ‘the one’ after very short time knowing someone. (next to impossible, btw) and that I was ready for a relationship, I mean really emotionally, mentally, spiritually, physically, financially ready, (not that I am poor by any means but really I guess I was impoverishing myself by ignoring those things for me.) I have things I want to do, need to do for me. How silly, to ever take my focus off me and shine my light onto anyone else, giving away all my energy, all the while claiming I was doing it for the relationship, how egotistical and presumptious of me, or for me to believe that I was doing things ‘just right’. Good grief! (aha#4) I really do not need any more aha moments, this IS enough for me.
This is why from time to time, I have been coming back to your articles, Nat and…
Hi, Natalie. I felt you hit all your marks with this article.
I’ve just spent the last year analyzing my previous relationship, and one of my first resolutions was: This is not about blaming either or you; it’s about understanding.
Still…the temptation to blame is like a seductive flame to a moth. Another temptation is to “typecast” your partner with various psychological issues in order to simplify matters to your own satisfaction. She’s a “controlling narcissist!” – and you have both your explanation and your self-righteous blame.
In a conversation we had a few months ago (what may prove to be our final conversation), she gave her diagnosis of me, inspired by months of therapy, which consisted of various psychological ailments. She had me pigeonholed and packaged, and I think she half-expected me to confess to all her classifications. Instead, I replied that such classifications get in the way of truly understanding another person and a relationship more often than not, and I was able to resist returning the favor.
One thing I dearly wanted to accuse her of was being unavailable. And she was, in many basic ways (clinging to an ex, not wanting to commit to any form of future despite proclamations of love). But, as you’ve pointed out so often here, so was I. I tolerated her unavailability because I was also unavailable.
So perhaps that year of analysis wasn’t entirely wasted. 🙂
i think (i hope, i pray) that nothing is wasted as long as we really learn from it. and i find that the learning takes place superficially during the phd research phase, but really settles in later at some future point, when something new happens that makes it all click into place, and bam! all of a sudden we are changed. but we couldn’t have enjoyed the click if we hadn’t unearthed all those realizations in the first place.
i think we have to be brave enough to admit, to dive into, the fact that when we are trying to understand someone else, we are really trying to understand ourselves. as long as, as natalie says, we aren’t using the research phase to avoid self-understanding rather than to enhance it, then its not wasted effort. but as we go, yeah, we are wise to shorten/eliminate that phase.
go lawrence!
@ pinkpearl
AMEN!!! yes! I have girlfriends who God forbid we don’t discuss men and their issues or our personal lives with males, dating status etc. I actually hate going out now bc I feel I’ve SO outgrown all this shit and sometimes I’d really love to just chat about more important things, or things that inspire. It’s amazing how women are practically obsessed with dissecting this kind of shit! Like who the he’ll cares?! If you need to dissect anyone’s behavior until kingdom come, move on. And ladies pls, let’s find more interesting things to discuss other then dissecting these losers.
Indeed & agreed.
p.s., one note of progress, I know you’ll all be proud, I am. Last wed. was my bday and I went to sleep tuesday night wondering what is THE best present I could give myself? And I woke with the answer! It was to end the brief relationship that was already not working for me! (the reset button was stuck from so many pushes) So that day, on my birthday, I arranged a brief face to face and ended it as amiably and simply put as I could, with little arguement, not surprised. FOR ME! A present to me from me. Ha. Im getting better already! thanks to this entire site of support and smart words to LIVE by….
Amen! What a great bday gift to yourself….good job!
Before I left the ex, I went to a therapist and asked her to help me get out of my abusive relationship. She told me that my boyfriend fit the classic profile of a narcissist, and once she explained how they behave, it really helped me to understand that I wasn’t crazy — I was simply being manipulated and conned by a person with a serious mental disorder. At the time, it really helped me to research narcissistic personality order to death because the break-up was like no other I’d experienced, and I knew my devastation wasn’t normal. I’d been in love before and had break-ups and coped quite well. This time I was strangely destroyed for quite awhile, and I grew to understand that it was because I had been in an abusive relationship that mirrored my abusive mother’s treatment of me. It’s called traumatic bonding, and psychologists say it’s an extremely difficult one to recover from. But after awhile, I’d made it abundantly clear the guy was a mentally ill jerk to all my friends and family, ad nauseam. The question became more about me: Why then, did I allow someone to treat me with such disrespect and cruelty? I ultimately came to understand that it was my problem, not his. After all, there are jerks and narcissists all over the planet. I chose to go out with one. I chose to stick around for two years.
I like Nat’s post because it’s a big reminder that we can’t stay stuck in “study mode” of the ex for too long. That phase may be useful to gain some perspective, but it also puts you in victim mode. And victim mode is never a powerful place to be. The only way to freedom is to take full responsibility for your own role in the relationship, and to make sure it never happens again.
Oh. It has a name!
Traumatic Bonding…yes.
Late last year I dreamed of watching a male/female couple racing along in a car, the car wrecked, and even though they were were bloody and battered and battered from the terrible accident, they turned to each other and very fiercely began having sex and merging with each other.
I actually got in touch with a dream professional to work out this dream and he agreed with my understanding of it being a reflection of bonding with someone through an intense and painful experience, but having a name for it just made something click.
Must. Google. Hahaha 🙂
Oh, now that I googled it I see that it’s different than what I thought…it doesn’t fit with the dream but fits with an early experience with an ex that kept repeating itself ad nauseum through our relationship.
Meh, okay, back to work….
Narcissists and Sociopaths are very similar. You can have traits of both. Good for you for finding this information. The victims of these mental disorders are fine, upstanding women like us. The perpetrators are highly functioning people, mostly men, that you would never suspect have a personality disorder.
holy effin’ shit. kerry. traumatic bonding? i looked it up. yikes. me.
and my breakup with my EUM, even though he wasn’t abusive, was probably so hard to get over because he did that come here/go away, push me/pull you, i’m here/i’m not thing, heavily spiced with criticism and sprinkled with little bits of rejection all over the place that my father did. it was scary how he consistently seemed to me to be a not-actually-abusive replica of my father. which is also why i was in the screwed up relationshit in the first place.
omgomgomg – thank you. see? sometimes the phd helps. i have a name for my pain and it is traumatic bonding. thank you.
cc, you are very welcome. I think the PhD has its place, especially when it sheds light on our own behaviours and faulty programming. The AC can sometimes push those old buttons like no other, and before we know it, we’re trying to “fix” those old childhood wounds through the AC. It’s like we’re the kid shouting, “You didn’t love me, but now you will! I’ll prove you wrong!” And of course, sadly, it doesn’t work. We are left as hurt and unloved as before. The good part is, those old childhood wounds may have been awakened by the AC, but now we can actually start healing and building a solid sense of self that doesn’t need outside validation (if we do the work, which is what we’re doing here).
And cc, my ex did the same pull me toward him/push me away, put-me-on-a-pedestal/put me down, be sweet/be mean cycle over and over again. That’s emotional and verbal abuse, and it’s just as damaging as physical abuse, if not more. It corkscrews into your brain because you become addicted to your next “fix,” when they’ll be nice to you again.
It’s mind effery to the max.
Hi, Kerry –
One of the key insights I took from my last relationship – one that I share with Natalie – is that when you point an accusing finger at your partner it invariably is pointing back at you. Not to say that one member of a couple can’t have worse behaviors, but even when that’s the case it ultimately comes back to you: Why did you accept this?
I still wish I could convince my ex to step back and take a more balanced view of what happened between us – to see that we both contributed to the demise of our relationship. I guess I’d prefer not to have someone I love to think of me as some form of evil monster.
….lawrence – i’m not trying to be a pain, you didn’t ask for commentary, so i’m not jumping on you. but it was like you’re waving a red flag here.
type rejection retraction into natalie’s search box and hit enter.
ok, yes, if you do really love her, yes, you want her good opinion because you value her opinion. but – if she’s thinking of you as an evil monster (goodness!), and you are truly NOT in fact an evil monster, then you might consider reassessing how much weight you give her opinion and how much say you give her over you because her judgment has objectively been proven to be poor.
you’re still accepting her unfair treatment of you – to go meta on you, you said it yourself – why? and…not that NC is a requirement post-breakup or anything, but if you’re out of the relationship, exactly how much contact are you in with her (i’m reacting to the word “convince”)?
just, if you can, take a look at what’s happening for you. i’m not sure you deserve so badly as to subscribe to her conspiracy about you when you’re clearly trying so hard to work on things with yourself – you can decide for yourself that she’s wrong. you don’t need her to agree. particularly if she is poorly qualified to be a judge of you. in fact…why does she have that job description at all? maybe she needs a reassignment.
Hi, CC,
If that’s what you call being a pain and jumping on someone, I could use more pain and being jumped on. 🙂
Well, I was exaggerating a bit about the “monster” part, but sometimes it feels like that. Since our breakup, we talked every few weeks for the first several months, though it’s now been four months since we last spoke. I thought those conversations were a healthy airing of grievances and misunderstandings. But that last conversation, where she essentially asked me to agree that I was to blame for the breakup (and I didn’t agree, though we didn’t argue the point), left a sour taste in my mouth. It’s not the way I wanted our final conversation to be (if it indeed proves to be the final one).
She came to that final conversation armed with many months of therapy, where it seems her therapist more or less rubber-stamped her own point of view – confirming her diagnoses of my various issues.
The thing is, it’s almost impossible to portray something so complex as a relationship in an accurate and fair-minded way. It’s nearly impossible, no matter how far you bend over backwards to be objective, to not bias your portrayal in your favor (and I’m no doubt doing that right now!). A few choice descriptions, while omitting positive things, can make almost anyone seem like a monster.
And that’s something I’ve been thinking about while reading these and other letters. So many right-thinking and good people having had the misfortune of being with partners who are so tragically flawed. Hmmmm… I guess I’m a tad skeptical that it’s so one-sided. 🙂
Anyway, thanks for your kind comments.
lawrence-
ok, whew.
to address the one-sided issue, watch that movie “the holiday” – cameron diaz and kate winslet – kate gets involved for years in a one-sided relationship with a future faking, bullshitting, slippery AC. that gives you a prototype of the kind of guy a lot of women here have experienced.
i do find that commenters here are pretty honest about their own contributions to the situations they’re in, and even if they’re not, their contributions are pretty obvious in their comments. legitimately, yes, there are a lot of guys out there who are jerking around women. i’m sure there are women who do the same, i just don’t get to see it. but if you read what people say here, you can tell what’s really happening – they’ve gotten themselves into terrible situations with people who are truly awful to them – its just that they get stuck, for whatever reason, and need to find the strength to bail and to make better decisions in future.
oh have I been there and done that….persued my academic Masters whilst already writing the dissertation of my PhD in AC EUM analysis….although obsessing about why I was angry that he was tring to put all his rage issues on me proved fascinating enough for a whole summer….really looking back I wish that I had been able to let go. I find myself always obsessing about unjust behavior even in my job. I am a teacher and right now I am dealing with the really disrespectful child who intentionally acts up in my class and then completely lies about it and his enraged mother who thinks that I am making up stories about her kid (like I have all ths time to waste doing that) while in reality he is the one who is bullying me and my good students and creating a miniature Lord of the Flies reenactment in my classroom with
his behavior….so so maddening ! I feel exhausted from the daily injustice because so much of it mirrors my life growing up with my lying stepmother…ugh! letting stuff like that roll off of my back is hard….
Hi Dancingqueen
very much off topic but google a book called “Coat of Many Pockets Managing Classroom interactions” Jenny Mackay
very helpful
Thank you Tulipa! I will do anything to avoid this nightmare of a situation next year! off to google…..
I think a big part of wanting to know what his intentions were, have to do with trying to reconcile how I could have fallen in love with and thought I knew so well, someone who in the end, turned out to be a stranger and a liar. All emotion he had shown during the relationship had been feigned.
I am six months out of a relationship and about a month ago, met him to talk, after months of NC. He was dressed in his best suit, and it was really clear he was there for one purpose, which was to show to me how well he was doing and how he had completely moved on, complaining to me how his friends want to set him up with this and that person. He had nothing kind to say to me, and after months of working to rebuild my self esteem, I found myself slipping back into the old habit of pandering to his ego, seeking affirmation. It was his cruelty that struck me most – he sat there enjoying his effect on me. I gave him a hug at the end and left feeling like dirt.
It is extremely hard to look back and see how blind I was to his obvious lack of any sort of affection or concern for my well-being, as I worked hard for him in the relationship and my feelings for him grew stronger over time. It is easier to focus on his intentions in the slim hope that he had some at one point, than to question how I could have become so attached to someone like him in the first place.
Annie I am so so sorry that you had to go through that. I can just envision exactly what type of man you are talking about….but I think that you need to ask yourself; was that love that you felt? I don’t know, it sounds to me like he might have hooked into some childhood or codependent issue of yours….I don’t think that it is truly possible to “love” someone like that….become attached and addicted yes, but love….I think you need to list the things that he did, and was, that made you feel love….just as an experiment. They might surprise you:) Hugs!
I haven’t spent a year “decoding” my ex’s behavior. What I stumbled on quite by chance was information on sociopaths. Bingo. Explained. From the indealization, devalue and discard, it was all there just like someone had been watching me for the last 4 years. I’m not saying I was perfect, but I wasn’t dealing with a man who was genuine. It’s taken months and months of therapy, reading and research, including Natalie’s incredibly spot on posts, to heal me. And I’m not there yet, but better.
Yeah, it kind of defeats the purpose when you try to win the “better person” game. People with a positive and grounded sense of themselves, and who have larger goals than bagging a lifer, aren’t in a game. They’re just getting on with things. I know I spent almost a year avoiding truths/fears about my own relationship- and personal-history by focusing on the AC, including our similarities and contrasts, and who was better or worse at it all. Pfft.
I guess that PhD would be better spent investigating herself. I had a similar aha moment today. I was lamenting all the lame-ass men who keep dropping the ball and just don’t seem to want to put in any effort. I thought I just want a man who values me and wants to fight for me. Then it struck me: that’s what I have to do for myself! I have to value and fight for myself. I repeated that to myself a few times like a mantra and it felt really good. The truth usually does.
Oh how I love thee Natalie! I have grown leaps and bounds because of your wisdom. I even made a decision in my best interests regarding this very subject BEFORE reading it because I’ve read enough of your posts and comments left by others. I’m learning from my own mistakes and from the guidance I get here. Just today I realized that I was going down a very well known path with a new EUM. I decided to ask some questions to get to the bottom of the ambigous rhetoric that been going on for about a week or so (oh how we loooooove ambiguity, don’t we ladies?). I wasn’t the least bit surprised by his clueless response. I thought about correcting him for about 30 seconds…to point all the reasons why he was wrong and how I would have come to a different conclusion about where we should be in the relationship. But then I stopped and realized that it would only fall on deaf ears and that *I* knew the truth, and in the end that’s all that really matters. Good riddance and good luck!
What do you do when ALL you can do is try and figure it out if it was all a lie,if you were used,manipulated?
My mm (of course he is not mine) has finally separated and I really believe getting a divorce. I should be thrilled, right? They have been living in the same house but sleeping separately for the last 3 mos. Finally last Mon she agreed to leave. He called me thrilled and wanted me to be the first to know.
Had me over Tues. we went out Wed and Thurs stood me up called me the next morning to say he fell asleep, Fri stood me up again, didn’t hear from him until Sun morning. Tells me he has been depressed that he didn’t realize how important his children were to his day to day happiness. I suggest that maybe he should reconsider the divorce and he said no way it wasn’t worth years of misery. He says he is feeling better and wants to have me over Sun night for dinner. Says he will call me. 8:00 pm comes around and I haven’t heard from him. I call, ask him “what’s up?” and he says he just finished dinner at the neighbors. Like it’s no big deal. Says he is exhausted and we should wait until another time. I finally lost it with him I told him I couldn’t take anymore. He seemed genuinely surprised. We talk then he goes on to tell me he is not sure he wants this relationship, not sure what he wants. This, after just a week ago the day I agreed to pay his 350.0 cell phone bill, he told me he wanted to spend a lifetime with me,wanted to be my husband..etc,etc. And this is what he’s been telling me the last 2 years. If I would just hang on until he got out of his marriage. I did and now he’s asking me to just hold on until he can sort his emotions out. He called back and said he did want me, didn’t want to lose me but couldn’t commit to a relationship right now.
So yeah I’m left trying to figure out what was true, how someone could be so cruel to someone who has helped him financially the last 5 mos. he has been without a job.
He has truly wrecked me emotionally. So I guess it’s true even if they leave there is no guarantee that they will then be with you.
ms option
Areyou really not going to give this up?
I see you ending up as the OW to his next wife if you don’t get out pronto.
That’s if he leaves this one. It’s not over until they both sign the dotted line. And even then he can still jerk you both about. That’s what he does.
grace, i love you. you’re so serene and understated and wise. i totally picture you as like, i don’t know, galadriel from lord of the rings, all ethereal and flowy and other worldly – so aptly named. shine on, sister.
even then. i have a friend who went back to his ex after they got divorced.
ms. option-
first, if i may, suggest you change your screen name. you, my darling, are no one’s option, and you must stop identifying as such.
second, no analysis is necessary! you said it all, just LOOK at what you wrote – he’s a frigging mess and you (said lovingly, gently) should not want him! it doesn’t matter if he cares about you or what his true intentions are or if he leaves his wife or not. look at him! its disgusting! he is an immature, irresponsible, future faking, ambivalent, using, EU, inconsiderate, RUDE, disrespectful, HOT mess and not someone you should be giving your precious self to, much less your money. in the face of him careening around, directionless, and taking your money, you are steadfast, unwavering and GIVing him your money. no! no! no!
honey! if i could drill a hole in your head and pour in clarity and self-respect, i would. please, just dump this guy. this must end. and i want your emotional recovery to be FAST. this guy is a loser who never deserved you. and he doesn’t deserve for you to spend one more ounce of emotional energy on him. i know that its unrealistic to think that you can disconnect from him and heal that fast – but the only person who doesn’t know what a tool he is, who doesn’t value herself to know that she can do so much better, is you.
please get rid of him. straight to the curb, now. he’s a sucking abyss of misery and pain. do not let him ruin your life any further. and for GOD’s sake, do not give him one more red cent (or pound sterling, or whatever your local currency is).
WAIT A MINUTE!
ms. option, i seem to remember a couple of months back writing to someone to change their screen name because it devalued them and they needed to stop identifying with it. was it YOU?
if it was – please. kidnap yourself and have yourself reprogrammed. pronto. this identity, this being, this version of yourself must change. you are a WHOLE person who deserves a WHOLE life. but you must choose it. i know, its scary, terrifying to give up one identity when you don’t know what the next one will be, but i’m here to tell you, you can do it. because trust me, working without a net in that way, stepping into the unknown, is infinitely better than staying in this known. this known sucks. and you know that already. so chuck it.
and change your goddamn screen name to something lovely. dammit!
grace, sorry for taking the lord’s name in vain so much.
[ms option] in square brackets until you find another name…
I dated a guy for four years, and it was never quite right. It was always going to be right when we weren’t long distance. Then when we were finally in the same place, there were suddenly new problems to be overcome. No matter what happened, and what was fixed, there was always another reason why we weren’t good, but I was always told, “when this is over, we’ll be great.”
At some point, you have to be with someone where it is ok all the time. In a good relationship the barrier test you and make you stronger, they don’t give your partner yet another a reason to not be all that you deserve.
This guy will always have a reason. Get rid of him and find yourself a man to love and admire who loves and admires you too.
he is a disrespectful rude hot mess. I love that LOL!!
Of course he can’t commit to a relationship, he’s MARRIED.
Natalie has said this better than I could:
He’s a scumbag for using you, and you need to get on your own side and get OUT and stop throwing yourself under the bus and wondering why it hurts. Get out of the way of oncoming traffic FIRST, then sort the other stuff out later.
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/why-affairs-are-like-being-double-crossed-in-a-heist/comment-page-1/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/theres-no-such-thing-as-an-honest-cheat-and-other-thoughts-on-cheating/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/are-you-drowning-in-detail-the-importance-of-heeding-the-topline-data-of-your-relationship/
The rant about the scumbag is mine. I didn’t mean to make it look like something Natalie said, I misplaced a sentence.
ms.option
Get out now! I spent ten years waiting for him to be “ready”. He never will be ready for you. Move on to someone who will respect you.
ms.option:
I was the wife in the same scenario, only I didn´t know about the OW´s existence because it was a long distance thing. What happened was this: husband moved out after years of indecision (didn´t know if he “loved” me but don´t be fooled, in between spurts of his questioning we had great times and even better sex), then spent most of his time with me and our children (he invited us over every weekend to his new place), stayed at my house after he had some minor operation.
The OW, I gather, knew nothing of this. A year later she moved in with him, he grew distant with us. Another year after that he spends most of his free time with us again. For me it´s convenient because of the kids, they seem very happy with that arrangement and they don´t want to have anything to do with his new girlfriend. My suspicion is my ex is getting bored of her and is missing his family. So this makes him resent her because in his mind, he gave up his family because of her. I ran into him last weekend at a mall, he was there with his gf (I had never met her before) and he looked bored to death. Whereas he is the perkiest man alive when he´s with his children. So it doesn´t change if he leaves his wife for you. You´re still the OW. (And sadly, in a way I´m still the wife he was unfaithful to.)
Brilliant – I have been guilty of this, on this very site, and I had my epiphany moment a few months back and realised that it was all a control issue, and me wanting to salvage my self-respect by putting another person who had hurt me, down.
I know how hurtful it is to have a ‘mental illness’ label put on me, and I have to hold back from doing it to other people, no matter how sucky I think they are behaving.
I also realised that I just plain didn’t want to think about him any more. For all that my latest date was completely unsuitable (and has now been flushed; thank you ladies for your encouragement), I was able to say quite casually that I had been out with someone, and wasn’t with them any more, but that I wasn’t going to trash him because he was basically a good man.
And that’s ALL I said, and I MEANT IT. It felt marvellous.
This one put me over the edge into healing today. My shit and my issues.
Not his.
“When someone shows you who you are, believe them the first time”~Maya Angelou
Well, you’re not going to believe if you don’t love, value or care about yourself now are you?
The first time I allowed my boundary to be crossed~he won.
When I realized that I might love myself a little ~he lost and I won.
Excellent article, and I’ve been guilty of getting PhD’s in trying to figure out why people have acted in unexpected ways. For me, this piece from the article gets to the heart of it: “whether they do something on purpose or not, they do not have the integrity, conscientiousness and level of personal responsibility that could ever add up to being part of a healthy mutual relationship.” That’s all that really matters, isn’t it? For both parties.
I will say, the last two guys I’ve been with have had diagnosed mental problems (which each informed me of; one was on meds, one was not), and these did add a layer of uniqueness, complexity and unpredictability – and instability to their behavior. The manifestations of these are not always readily apparent; the guys were bright, attractive charming; time and challenges brings the inner behavior patterns out. I’m not up for a third try at this time.
Yet when all is said and done, whatever the cause of the behavior, what matters indeed are the results. My adult daughter told me after the last guy first broke up with me, “Mom, he’s showing you everything you need to know!” I STILL gave him another chance….and he showed me again.
Great article and perfect timing. I recently met a “hot” guy 10 years younger—2 months ago, but it seems like 2 years. Sex was great….and it had been a while. There were red flags all over the place, which at first I ignored. A missing casino ticket for $200 was the first flag. I ran a background check and found a criminal background–no violence, and mostly things like car theft–but he did time in prison–earlier there was forgery—many charges dismissed, but he’s a habitual criminal under the law. Then there were things like showing up late–then not at all—always a story to explain it. Then it was calls in the middle of the night that he was in my driveway, and constantly borrowing small amounts of money or fillups of gas. Then a credit card disappeared, and there were $700 in charges—-fortunately I caught it in time….STILL more stories from him…..and I didn’t totally get him out of my life. I even spent $500 on power equipment, for work he could do “if” he had the tools. I figured I was helping him, and perhaps he would turn his life around.
He is so not like me……or like anyone I would ever have been interested in. I showed him the criminal report–he wasn’t upset…just said you’re good. He even had the gall to say he was falling in love with me. I did spend a couple weeks trying to figure him out and even trying to justify his actions. Finally, just the other day I decided it doesn’t matter what his problems are–or were. I’m not responsible for his life…his job….his gas. There were no arguments…..not even a lot of discussion. I just quit answering the phone…I figure he’s on so someone else…probably his MO….see who he can sucker in…and when they find out..he moves on. Fortunately I never had this type of experience before, and I chalk it off to a younger guy thinking an older woman would do anything and be grateful. Fortunately I have a burglary system and am a member of a credit reporting agency, and use Intellius for background checks..a must for anyone dating! Thank you for the great article…it is sooo true.
Natalie, thank you for this helpful post. I used to be like this 6 years ago, before I met my current AC. The guy, who I dated for two years went to Thailand (2 weeks holiday) and came changed man, he was physically avoiding me and eventually disappeared without explanation!!! I called and texted him in the beginning, but he was saying that he was sick, and when I was offering to look after him, he refused. I saw him in the bar three months later…He lost huge amount of weight, literally he became skeleton. I wish I had a courage to confront him then and have my answers, so it could helped me to have my closure, but I didn’t. It took me two years to feel normal again. I still have days when I wonder what had happened…Trust me Natalie, it would be SO much easy for me, if I had a proper closure:-(
I really hate that dirt if mind**** breakup. They wouldn’t like it if someone did the same to them. Even more so when they label you a “psycho”, when all you want is answers.
I’ve missed out on proper closure too, spectacularly so, but I have also not given proper closure to others. It’s actually quite hard to get proper closure. The conditions for proper closure usually involves a loving, positive relationship that mutually peters out, not one that ends without explanation or in nastiness or disrespect.
You’ve gotten the relevant information – he left in a horribly cruel and cowardly way, is not in a good place (but still…he had other options), and your not being able to confront him, after, speaks to the fact that this relationship probably wasn’t in the best state, certainly not in one where there would likely be proper closure.
It sucks having to do the heavy-lifting on our own, but it’s worth it in the long term. Harder, yes, but better and more long-lasting. A lot of this, in my view, is about the shock. That’s what’s hard to get over, not what happened, but THAT it happened.
(or ‘was’ not in a bad place – sorry, overlooked that two years ago)
Little Star, Fed Up
The whole thrust of the post is NOT to chase them down for closure or for answers. Even in your imagination.
Look at the results – he’s disappeared or he’s broken up with you. That’s what you need to accept, not continuing your investment in him by making your recovery dependent on him providing the answers. I’ve had these “answers” and this “closure” that you’re hooked on getting – in debriefings that lasted hours, in letters 10 pages thick and it was just confusing. YOU have to move on BY YOURSELF.
When a decent person breaks up with you, it goes like this:
“I don’t see a future between us. We want different things and need to move on”. That’s the best you will get, maybe with some crying and some well-worn cliches “We’ve had some good times, we’re just not compatible, it’s not you it’s me. You’ll meet someone better” . You don’t get a blow by blow analysis of his character, intentions or thoughts. He’s not going to come up with the magic words that will heal you and enable you to skip the grieving.
Little Star, six years down the line, this is no longer about him – it’s down to you to flush it.
There is no way to break up with someone that will make them think “Yay, that was cool. I’ve all the answers and all the closure. Now I can skip to the next relationhip with nothing to deal with!”
Granted, EUMs/ACs don’t help by popping in and out of your life or insulting you but the answer isn’t to wait for their magic wand, it’s to get rid of them.
You and him are not going to be friend, go on any more dates, live together, or get married, or have children together. Why do you need to know what he’s doing/thinking? He has nothing to do with you now (yay). Stop giving it space in your head (note to self) that would be better used for other things.
Grace thank you for your comment. I cant describe how depressed I was:-( I only wanted one thing from MR Available (he was!) to admit and say: “Sorry, I went to Thailand and met someone there, good bye!” IT could save me from humiliation and embarrassment, but he was saying that he was sick and I was hopping that one day he will get better and come back to me!!! I thought he was a decent guy and we loved and trusted each other. All my friends were shocked that I allowed him to go to Thailand to visit his male friend, but I TRUSTED him 100% and never in million years expected he would cheat!!! I moved on, I do not care about him, but I would never ever want to see him again, he brought me too much pain.
There is no way to break up with someone that will make them think “Yay, that was cool. I’ve all the answers and all the closure. Now I can skip to the next relationhip with nothing to deal with!”
this made me laugh out loud!
The “closure” discussion is WAY overrated. Yes, the ranting lawyer was decent by breaking up with me, albeit by e-mail. His reasons: 1) we differed on the timing and pacing of relationships (sex being part, but not all of that); 2) “I” was looking for the “real thing” and we probably ultimately weren’t that for each other; and 3) we lived an hour apart so getting together involved a two hour commute. He also kept apologizing profusely for wanting to end things. Saying for now it was the right call, but maybe in the future.
It’s hard to get an e-mail like that. Especially when you have no opportunity to participate in a discussion or respond directly (which I’ve also learned is WAY overated). But I wrote back a very mature, dignified e-mail. And wished him well. That’s how it should have ended. But no, I needed closure.
We met to discuss. I never really figured out what the timing/pacing issue was about; he didn’t really know me, yet I wasn’t “the one.” Only 5 long dates (but e-mails and calls in-between over 2 months). Said I had all of the qualities he was looking for in someone, really liked me, thought I was nice, hot, etc.. (and I truly think he meant it) but could see us going our separate ways in 2 years. Said that I was probably a lot of fun (but for some reason, I always felt like he didn’t want us to have fun).
But the hour distance issue, the ultimate in clousure. He said he was resentful (comparing me to the general resentment he had for his ex-wife) because I never drove out to see him. Comparing me to “the one who got away” who would hire a babysitter, drive to his house to have sex with him (stressing she was a school teacher and didn’t make a lot of money). When I asked him why he didn’t bring it up before if it bothered him so much (I would have been happy to drive to his neck of the woods), he said “I would no more ask a woman to put it in her mouth, than ask her to drive to X.” Saying how he was “testing” me on a previous date about whose house we would have sex at first (that somehow tied into the distance/driving issue) but said that I didn’t “catch on.” Gave me the option of FWB, but knew that I wouldn’t go that route.
So yes, decent for ending it, decent for leaving me alone, a bit indecent with the closure… Way overated.
I AM OLD-FASHIONED (AND A LAWYER MYSELF, BTW), AND I HAVE TO SAY THAT HE SHOULD BE COMING OUT TO SEE YOU, EVEN IF IT MEANS A 1 HOUR DRIVE! HE SHOULD PAY FOR THE DATES. HE SHOULD BE WHAT THEY CALL “CHIVALROUS”.
WHY DO YOU THINK THE “ONE WHO GOT AWAY” GOT AWAY? SHE GOT SICK AND TIRED OF ACCOMMODATING HIM, AND HE GREW TO HAVE LESS RESPECT FOR HER AS A RESULT OF HER ACCOMMODATING HIM!
HE IS EITHER A MISERABLE MOFO, AND/OR NOT READY AND STILL LOOKING FOR “MS. PERFECT.”
MEANWHILE, HE GETS THE SEX HE NEEDS FROM ANY NUMBER OF WOMEN, WHO WILL PROVIDE IT ON TAP AND EVEN DRIVE OUT THERE TO GIVE IT TO HIM.
ASSHOLE.
I AM EMBARRASSED THAT HE IS A LAWYER.
OF COURSE, HE’D CALL ME A “PRUDE.”
FINE BY ME!
I have the funny feeling he might’ve learned (or caught?) a life-threatening illness, and in his own misinformed way wanted to spare you that. The “skeleton” description brought that possibility to mind.
But never knowing…after being with someone for two years…wow. That’s a hard cross to bear.
Thank you ladies for your comments, I really appreciate it!!!
Lawrence, maybe you are right…that’s maybe why he was avoiding physical contact with me?! Maybe he felt guilty to meet me and talk to me??? BUT WHY WHY WHY??? I NEVER checked any information about him, as I was scared (still I am) in case if I find out that he died or married to his Thai girl and have children with her?! Maybe better just leave it, it is easy for me, the less I know the better???????
little star
because that’s how he deals with things. Some people deal with things by committing murder, some run away, some take drugs, some shag everything that moves, some get depressed, some push you down the stairs *cough*, some sit down with you and do their best to explain themselves honestly. Unfortunately, the latter aren’t the guys we’ve been involved with.
Well, if you *can* just leave it… 🙂 That’s always the simplest, if usually near-impossible, option.
Gee, let’s make this *really* interesting. Thailand is known for providing relatively cheap surgery of a particular kind. Maybe he had a sex-change operation!
I don’t know…the mystery alone, aside from the emotional issues, would probably drive me mad. If you can find the truth without going uber-stalker on the dude, maybe that’s the best option? The one that could bring you some peace, even if the result is painful.
Grace and Lawrence thank you so much for your comments. @Grace, you are right, everyone react differently, and my ex decided to disappear without explanation.
@Lawrence, you made me smile:-) I cant imagine him to become a woman, but maybe he met a Lady-boy?! I will be honest with you, I am scared to find out the TRUTH, I rather live in “Unknown World”, I have enough to deal with i,e. my current AC of four years:-)
While researching my exe’s issues i found out, thet i myself had some of it. And he really has issues. So do i. Found a coach, worked on it. 7 months is the longest u can keep us apart (4 years on/off). Now he’s got a gf. Not that THAT would help…I always suspected that i’m not the relationship kind of type, as if i needed proof. Still, he’s had more relationships in the meantime than me. Mine: Zip. Zero for the past 15 years. Not even able to see the guys i could probably have the real thing with. So maybe I am the one with so many issues that he couldn’t keep up with and had to leave. Though he always wanted a relationship, only, not with me.
@Chloe
I don’t think you attract ACs or EUMs…you choose them. I’d start your investigation there. Staying in a dysfunctional relationship could be so dangerous in terms of your self esteem and you may not maintain enough objectivity to really learn anything…in the meantime, kissing goodbye to your spirit.
You know enough just by entering into a relationship you already know is potentially harmful. Xx
Thanks Sarah…..very true, especially about the kissing goodbye to my spirit….don’t want to do that.
This whole PhD-ing has an aspect that is very entertaining and distracting, both effects can be very soothing, so this is where it comes from: a misguided attempt to self-soothe. But getting busy diagnosing other people is definitely a misplaced investment. There are better ways to self-soothe. If one is so keen on pegging conditions, one can perform this on literary protagonists, ha, ha, very entertaining as well. Anna Karenina, for example, is definetely a Borderline case.
Wonderful post, Natalie! I remember my mom actually said to me one time, “You sound like you are getting a PhD in this guy,” because I knew so much about him, spent everyday researching to figure out who he was (and, more importantly, what he was looking for that I didn’t have), had literally dug up in the library and read 50+ articles he had published, etc. I worked tirelessly for years and ended up with … absolutely nothing to show for it. As it turns out, no one else cares about this form of scholarship, which is why you can’t get a degree for it. Too bad I didn’t pick a topic of actual value, which might actually contribute to the world in some way. 🙂
I’m with Teddie – all of this research is a “misguided attempt to self-soothe.” But not only is it a very “misplaced investment,” I would also argue all this researching DRAMATICALLY slows down how quickly we get over what happened. It feeds the obsession and increases its traumatic impact. Let’s say you’re with an AC for a year, and then – in a destructive attempt to “self-soothe” – spend the following year researching him. You’re going to then probably need another whole year after THAT to get over your researching. This is really a special form of self-imposed Hell. Allow yourself to feel the pain, “let the break-up fire burn.”
I can imagine that in some cases, when someone has a very traumatic event in her life, there might be value in coming to better understand what happened, by maybe spending a day or two investigating. But I would definitely argue (particularly if you have OCD tendencies!!!) that this sort of “research” needs to be delayed, until you have SUBSTANTIAL distance from what happened.
I used to be so guilty of this, and it is absolutely 100% accurate. It’s also true for all relationships, not just romantic ones. Great peice.
I agree that I’d have saved an awful lot of time and energy, had I walked at the first red flag; or even the second and third red flags; but I didn’t walk because I loved how I felt when we were together. I realise now that I saw our relationship as a beautiful opportunity that he was needlessly squandering through lack of judgement 🙂
In the end, perhaps, it was understanding him better that helped me to let go. I was so confused, not only by the disconnect between what he was saying and doing, but, also, between what he was doing and what he was doing, that I found myself unable to leave, stuck on constantly analysing him, trying to work out what he was really thinking. I guess that, on some level, as bewildered and unsettled as it felt to be on the receiving end of so many mixed messages, I must have been comforted by spending so much of my time weighing up the evidence in an effort to find ‘the truth’.
Of course, I should have let him go long before I did, but, because of the level of physical affection that he showed me, combined with tearfulness (!) and his fervent desire for contact, I assumed that, deep down, he was deeply in love with me – that he felt what I felt, but that circumstances were getting in the way. Indeed, this is how he portrayed the situation, always telling me that I was the best person in his life; that ours was the most harmonious relationship he’d ever had; that, when I left him for a couple of weeks, the pain was unbearable.
Personally, I couldn’t behave so affectionately towards someone I didn’t love – this is behaviour that I shall never be able to fathom, no matter how much I analyse.
The reality, however, was that, far from being in love with me, he didn’t know what he wanted – that he sometimes wanted me and sometimes wanted someone else – his overseas so-called ‘ex’-girlfriend, the woman he’d always portrayed as demanding, loud, angry and quarrelsome…
Just two days ago, when he was being exceptionally loving and attentive to me, I discovered that he was still making plans to be with her. Eventually, he volunteered that he didn’t know what he wanted when it came to relationships, that he was going to control himself, so as not to hurt me any more and that he’d made up his mind to marry her because choosing her involved hurting less people than picking me. Not exactly the stuff of poetry!
I’ve heard it before; but, this time, I’m listening and taking his words at face value – no need for any more analysis…Time to pull and flush…
jesus, hadenough-
sorry about that. GOOD for you that you’re disconnecting and flushing. god, he’s marrying her because it will hurt fewer people? what a, sorry, *pussy*! good riddance. you need a MAN.
i think you’ve hit on something here: based on how affectionate he was with you …”I assumed that, deep down, he was deeply in love with me – that he felt what I felt, but that circumstances were getting in the way. Indeed, this is how he portrayed the situation”.
one reason we go for that phd because we too often, and i am so guilty of this 1) assign a meaning to their actions that turns out to be inappropriate because 2) we make too many assumptions that they are just like us. in other words, he is doing x, and i would only do x if i felt y, therefore, he must feel y. mistake!! which, i think the guy knows we’re making, and he feeds our assumptions because they work out for him in the short term. and then, when our logic train proves false, it is SO hard for us to understand that we have to go on an archaeological dig just to get some peace of mind. i am absolutely sure natalie has blogged about this separately.
i definitely have done this, and gone around on the merry-go-round that heart shaped noose was describing the other day, just to attempt to figure it all out and how i went so wrong.
hadenough, i’m so glad for you that you’ve had enough. it seems like it takes me forever to have enough, to really rid my mind of the guy. but my EUM is fading, slowly, but yes, fading.
all hail natalie!
cc
Yep, as many of our relationships are unavailable or barely there or even *cough* just a crush, we don’t have much information to go on. it’s quite natural to interpret their actions in the light of what WE would do.
The excrush doing things for me I interpreted as being especially for me, because I’m more reserved than he is. But as I observed him around other people, I see he does the same for them. He enjoys people and was well brought up. Nat’s Dreamer book mentions it too – you may think he’s being attentive but is it just how he treats everyone?
So the kicker is: his intentions are – he has no intentions, ouch. It hurt and still does somewhat, but fading every day. I feel better for having realised the truth. Trying to align my interpretation (he MUST like me) with what was happening (ie nothing) was making me a bit nutty.
Thankfully, nothing ever transpired between us, no funny stuff.
But physical affection, sex, charm, even acts of kindness and loving words don’t equal a proper relationship. We imbue them with our own motivations and qualities, and are stymied when they turn out to be *gasp” themselves and not an extension of us.
Analysing a relationship/situation is an amber-bordering-on-red- flag in itself. People in good relationships don’t spend their time thinking about it, reading about it, discussing it, trying to understand it. They are living it.
If it’s meant to be, if he loves you so much, if his intentions are good, if you’re soulmates or have a connection, if he’s going to leave his wife, if he has some special insight into you, if you’re best friends, if he really wants to be with you, why are you sat home wondering where the hell he is? As the post says – look at the net result. What do you actually have? Is it satisfying?
Everything else is distracting fluff that we use as an excuse to stay invested. Or we’re looking for the magic key to make them change. There is no key.
gracey grace-
in my EUM’s case, he was just a … ok, he was wonderful in many, many ways, and that’s why i loved him, but he was also stunningly emotionally crippled and of rather a selfish, stingy nature (i don’t mean money, i mean basic, BASIC personal/emotional non-generosity) and that’s why i shouldn’t have been with him. the whole of it was very confusing – mostly because i didn’t have my esteem and boundaries straight, didn’t hope enough for myself, was willing to accept crumbs and didn’t know enough or have the strength enough to opt out. oh, and the aforementioned traumatic bonding, that was the real kicker, i now realize.
its funny how, once you sort that value / esteem / boundaries / objectives stuff out, it all gets clear and simple fast.
right, no key. right, not an extension of me. right, imbuing (great word). right, analyzing.
and its funny, the more i roll on, the more i heal, the more i realize, the more i think its just really sad. but whatever.
Wow, Hadenough. Thanks for sharing, parts of what you wrote describe exactly how I felt about the EU. “I loved how I felt when we were together.” I had never been that excited about someone before, so happy to be around him. I also could not understand why he would not want to really give things a chance between us….I thought that we had so much between us and I could see that he had fallen for me and would talk about a future…I just did not understand whatsoever how he could just walk away (well, not really walk away as he still wanted to keep me around and *maybe* give it a shot in the future). Ugh.
As for the bizarre “I’m marrying someone else because it’s easier” line, I knew a guy who did something like this….so strange. He is an AC, had never had a real relationship, but had stories of ‘lost loves’ that were essentially vacation flings that lasted all of a couple of months. He decided that he had fallen head over heels for someone who then dumped him for being ‘crazy’ pretty quickly. Turns out there was another woman he had been stringing along throughout his ‘madly in love’ time with the woman who dumped him….he announced that he had no feelings for this other woman, but that he was going to be with her ‘for the long haul’. I believe there was also something about how he would eventually develop feelings for her once they started having sex. I think he got engaged to her a number of months later. It was all so messed up, I could not fathom what goes on the mind of someone like that…
Sorry to hear that you’ve gone through this, but thank goodness you’re walking away….and I pity this woman if she actually goes through with marrying the twit.
Hadenough –
You’re definitely right to let him go. As someone who just flip-flopped back and forth for the last two months eight or nine different times, I feel like I now have a much stronger sense of what is going on in the non-comittal person’s head when he acts like this. It means that the person secretly knows inside of him that you are not the “right one” but he has his own reasons for not wanting to let go (maybe fear of being alone, maybe sexual attraction, maybe low self esteem, maybe connecting you for whatever reason to certain other memories that he is still wrestling with, maybe really does enjoy in your company in many ways, maybe not wanting to hurt you, etc.). This kind of situation is a waste of time and potentially very painful. If he can’t be the strong one, you be it, and let him go. There is someone out there (surely many someones out there!!) who would want to be with you with every fiber of his being. Anything less than that is beneath you. 🙂
Good luck!
Great insightful blog ….I think when you have been in an abusive relationship it is crucial you identify what exactly went on …the tactics the abuser used to control, isolate you and demean you in a very covert way …Information after all is power …Once you have identifyed the traits and characteristics of the Abuser …it is then time to look at yourself ..not in a blaming way (as you say) but seeing how it happened.. I have found out for myself that I went through so many red flags ..and identifying why ..high level of tolerance, not wanting to hurt anothers feelings, tendancy to self-blame, thinking if you give them enough love and attention things would improve ..etc etc . I believe and I pray that i will by research and identifcation of my own traits I will run a million miles from an abusibe person again….
Angel Bright
While Natalie’s post makes it plain that beyond a certain point there can be no useful purpose to constantly spending time to gain further info: Essentially how much do you need to know to realize that there were big problems? I thoroughly agree with your analysis re: researching to understand the characterisitics of an abuser. It is empowering to understand that covert abuse, lying, gas lighting behavoirs were not your imagination. To see the pattern of my (most likely borderline ex EUM), laid out before me helped me realize that this person’s behavoirs were; unlikely to change, not personal to me and very, very destructive. Having recognized this I then went on (and am continuing) to try to understand how and why I ended up entangled with someone of this nature. (Ignoring red flags, poor boundaries. the list goes on). Having a better understanding of all of the issues including my contribution to my own misery will hopefully set the stage for a healthier relationship in the future.
I think for many of us our lover’s behavoir is so confusing that we are unable to see the forest for the trees. Ideally we should be in a place where as the first red flag goes up, we don’t question and analyize or seek to understand, but simply move on…..Until we have reached that place it is useful to understand and recognize the patterns intrinsic to an abusive relationship to aid ourselves in disentangling from it.
I understand this article totally. Its like Natalie gets in your brain (or maybe its just simple psychology) Ive learnt so much on this site. i did inestigate 1 exes intentions and it took me over a year but that was because id been single for 5 yrs and then suddenly met someone on the internet, it went way too quick, he had baggage, i had loads and hey presto 2 unavailables collided, i needed this site and some books to figure out what it was i was doing to get in this situation and BOY was this a painful process. inever wanted to prove either of them wrong just to understand what was going on (with all the charming behaviour that suddently went sour and i was dropped like a hot brick at the same time as experiencing career problems so it was like WOW and hitting a certain age – not a good combo to get through but ive come out the other end!!!! thanks Nat
I need help and support this morning. Things ended kinda messy with an eum friend. There was love& care for eachother but after 13 years of ups and downs I could no longer try to make the friendship work and I sent him an email full of every last thing he put me through. I know none of you would advise this and I havent been reading here for long but writing that email was to myself. A reminder of all the ways he treated me and in the end I hit send.
I dont think he knew I was even smart enough to notice all the sly ways he would manipulate me or disrespect me.
I wish I would have handled it better and not sent an emotional email, but instead just went no contact. Either way I am certain the email was the nail in the coffin.
I feel empty. 2 mornings in a row I woke up with tears already in my eyes. my daily gym routine, the sunshine, nothing seems to lift the heavy sadness that is consuming me. I wish I never met him or spent all those years believing the frendship would last forever.
Thanks girls.
c-
look. you sent the email. its done. even though i too have sent those emails, it is generally agreed that we are better able to keep our power and our dignity when we don’t spew.
so? you spewed. screw it. its not such a terrible thing. and do you really think that after a 13-year up and down relationship that there wouldn’t be at least 1 angry email? no, that’s unrealistic. you need to let yourself off the hook.
if you feel you have learned that its better to not spew, then you know now how to take care of yourself if such a future moment arises. but now? in this moment? take care of yourself now. you’re already hurting, you need care and understanding. good for your that you’re keeping moving, gym, etc, brava. but the relationship JUST ended.
so of course you’re sad. just, for now, let yourself be sad. don’t stop moving, keep going, but allow yourself your grief. because if you deny it, you’ll just lengthen your grieving period. be easy, be gentle, keep moving, eat your veggies, drink your water, take your vitamins, cry to your girlfriends. its going to be ok. just keep going.
i’m sorry you’re hurting.
c
i would’ve sent that email as well. dont feel like you did the wrong thing. what helped me and others i know is to write your feelings out day by day and dont send it … i remember once i told this guy i was going to write him a huge email about my feelings about the break up and he said he would read it….in the end, weeks passed, then a month, then two and so on…i kept writing about him, my situations and feelings, but i ended up not sending it….because i realised i didnt want to bring up old hurts as it wasnt going to achieve anything….it will take time, cry, take some days off work, talk to your girlfriends, visit this site and in no time, the pain will lessen
C:
Don´t worry about it. Sometimes we end up doing the things we didn´t intend to do, and maybe it´s a good thing in the long run.
Last year I was working with a friend I had known for about 20 years, I completely trusted him but when he became my boss he started to bully me. It was really unexpected, I felt very abused but I decided to maintain my dignity by not showing him my real feelings about this. Besides, at that moment I really needed the money.
A few months ago, however, things just exploded. He accused me of things I never did, lied, twisted things around to suit his point of view. I think he just wanted me to resign to give my job to some of his (male) chums and sort of share the loot between them. He was so offensive I just had to tell him the truth. He is such an ass he even replied I was being “insubordinate”.
So I just let it all out and walked away, never contacted him again.
I was a bit disappointed because I intended to keep my cool around him, but now that some time has passed, I´m happy I´ve let him know I despise him. It must´ve given him some bad moments at the least and now I can keep away from him socially (we have a lot of friends in common). I´m happy I don´t have to pretend nothing happened whenever I run into him again. Now he knows I´m not the doormat he thought I was and I´m guessing he won´t dare make some silly joke about me being too sensitive or whatever.
It surprises me that he hasn´t de-friended me on facebook, I thought about doing it myself but didn´t want to give him that much power to bother about that.
ok here’s my take on this for my situation. After being involved with quite a few EUM’s over the years, I have finally realised that relationships are meant to be EASY! I seriously did not know this before, as all the relationships in my family of origin were based on drama and ‘if you loved us you would do x,y,z’ ie. bend yourself into a pretzel and maybe everything will be ok for a while….The light has gone on ladies. BUT I now realise how many years I have spent analyzing the man of the moment, what he said, what he did, what he may mean, his mental problems, blah, blah, blah. I seriously did not know that I could say ‘no thanks’ and walk away to better things..Now the current EUM is inundating me with texts, after dumping him at Easter. I am the best woman in the world, and how sorry he is, how he can’t live without me, he is a total mess, terrified of the future etc, etc and then caps it all off by saying that maybe one day he may be able to be a 7 nights a week guy and that he knows he is not like everyone else, maybe he has Aspergers even..so if I would just be as kind as to have him back and make him feel better again that’d be great…I don’t bloody think so. This is all on top of the death of my son..I have spent many hours – er that should be wasted many hours- working out what was wrong with him and trying to figure out why it is only me that sees this..now I realise that everyone else does know but they just hoped that I would come along and stick with him…bless the love of a good woman and all that ..I’m just getting on with my life without him and enjoying the calm and peace for me and my little boy.
needtobefree-
you nailed it, relationships are actually supposed to be easy.
right now i am dating, probably for the first time in my life, a guy who is 1) seemingly compatible with me (at this early stage) 2) emotionally available and 3) competent at leading his life – all at the same time. plans get made easily, he just talks to me, he brings up questions with ease, there’s no drama. in fact, its so new to me that i hardly know how to handle it – it feels so alien that i have no idea how to make a decision about him. so am proceeding slowly.
i’m so, so sorry about your son. yes, honor your life and his memory and ditch the EUM – notice the “be as kind as to have him back and make him feel better again that’d be great” – that’s a request for a reset – no.
Disagree…. It’s good to have an understanding of what’s going on, so you can spot sim red flags in the future. I’d get out… not hang around confronting someone who’s never going to listen.
Just like many of you, I found BR by googling WTF was wrong with HIM (gee, MM, cheater, narcissist)….I distinctly remember spending a late night on the Internet, with so many Ah Ha moments that pertained to him. Then I found this site and read about Emotionally Unavailable Men. That’s IT!!! That is HIM!
So I finally went to bed, satisfied I had identified and diagnosed him. The next morning my eyes flew up and the first thought that went through my head was that all the signs and symptoms I had read about him….were actually ME!!! I was him, he was me. And it took that mirror to finally see what I was. Oh, the beginning of the journey. Still working on it, but I am proud to say, while I am a work in process, I am no longer EU and I no longer date EUM. So all the research I did led me back to me, and that is when the real self healing begins if we allow it.
BR was and is a big piece of that, which is why I keep coming back for more. Bless you Natalie!! My life is so much better today than when I first found you in Jan. 2011….
Amazing article…and so timely for me. The man I’ve been dating for 8 months disappeared as of Saturday. That’s the last I heard from him. I called him Sunday and sent a friendly text, and nothing. The hardest thing is trying to understand how they can be soooo disrespectful. This man is 51 years old…he’s not a boy! I don’t get it. How hard is it to say it’s not working out? I thought everything was fine…we were getting along well and nothing seemed amiss. I’m just having a VERY hard time understanding this rude and disrespectful behavior…I’d never do this to someone else. As a poster said above it is about the shock that it happened…I just can’t wrap my head around it and it really hurts my feelings….ugh!
I am so so sorry….disappearing in a man that age is so pathetic. I know that many will disagree but personally if that were me I would write a short follow up email for my closure. I would just say what you said ” I thought that things were fine, I was always respectful and kind to you and I am just shocked and hurt that you would end things this way, when a simple ‘This is not working out’ could have been easily said. I am not expecting a reply to this because obviously you are not the type to be straightforward, but yes I am pretty disappointed and hurt”. There is no reason that you should have to sit with the pain of not having said anything. I know that many will disagree with me here, but you would not be telling him about himself but expressing something to get it said and get it off your chest ( in a reasonable way). But thats just me. I found saying nothing for really bad behavior ( literally nothing) ate away at me…the choice is yours. Big hugs!
“How hard is it to say it’s not working out? I’m just having a VERY hard time understanding this rude and disrespectful behavior…” Mary, I hear ya. Sorry to hear he pulled the “POOF” tactic, I’ve had Eum/Assclowns do the same to me. Here’s how I think about it:”Ok, I’m an adult. I know things don’t always work but if you (the guy or close friend) want to leave, out of respect for me and the time we shared TELL me so. Don’t just disappear as if I meant nothing to you…Incidently that crappy scenario has only happened to me with a few guys who were piss takers, or ones who I used to date, no girl friends ever did that to me. Only one guy had the decency to tell me he thought we were probably not a match romantically before taking off. I was a bit disappointed but I have to say it was refreshing in a sense and helped me get over it. I would be cordial if I ran into him, and bear no ill feelings.
However, when they do the disappearing crap with no explanation, not even a freakin post it or text, it is very hurtful and results in a longer recovery time. My theory is some have no balls. They’re afraid of so many things. It takes balls (aka bring it on, so what it might hurt, I’m taking a chance attitude) to level with people and say what’s on your mind. They don’t have it. I do. I tell people when things are not working out. Why? I do it out of respect for the other person and because I’m brave. They don’t do the same b/c they’re scared of what we might say or do lol.Wusses.
Just as well. Lack of confidence and manners is NOT attractive. They are the sort that bail out whenever things get hard. I don’t want to be with a partner who makes me do all the heavy lifting in a relationship. Thanks for reminding me of the #1 reason why my ex is not worthy. I want a real man, not a Peter Pan. I bet you do as well. Sending good thoughts your way.
Hi ladies, thanks for your support. Dancingqueen–I did send him a text yesterday that said I can’t believe after 8 months of dating you don’t have the respect to call me and discuss things. I thought things were fine between us, and if not, we should be able to discuss it as mature adults. I’m not into playing games. Well…guess what…still no response. Maybe BOTH his arms were broken simultaneously? I don’t know and don’t get it. Anyway, it’s very much the cowards way out and super disrespectful. Sad that he chose to go this pathetic route but I guess ultimately it shows his true character. And all along he told me how much he respects people — yet actions speak WAY louder than words. I keep making the mental sound of a toilet flushing to remind myself to move on!!! 🙂
Mary, no answer this is your answer. You tried you best and wanted to talk and discuss things between them, his behaviour is really childish and stupid. Please start NC, you deserve someone honest and mature!!! Hugs.
CC – Thanks for calling him a pussy – I appreciate it 🙂
It was when he finally volunteered the simple truth that he didn’t know what he wanted that, somehow, the bubble burst and I realised that I didn’t respect him or want him anymore.
Now, of course, it should have been obvious to me from his mixed messages that he didn’t know what he wanted, but, somehow, I managed to get sidetracked and confused, believing him to be a victim of his family obligations and of his ‘ex’ who was, apparently, making him feel guilty. I guess assumptions I made as a result of his loving behaviour led me to over-analyse a situation that wasn’t really that complex at all: The problem is that analysing a confused person can lead to insanity…
My progress was exactly as you posted earlier:
i think (i hope, i pray) that nothing is wasted as long as we really learn from it. and i find that the learning takes place superficially during the phd research phase, but really settles in later at some future point, when something new happens that makes it all click into place, and bam! all of a sudden we are changed. but we couldn’t have enjoyed the click if we hadn’t unearthed all those realizations in the first place.
I do hope the slow fade continues for you. I pinch myself and am filled with wondrous delight that I just don’t care any more. Wow!
hadenough-
i’m filled with wondrous delight for you! aaaah! that’s so great.
yeah, that “wow, i totally don’t respect you” moment must have been like the sun breaking through the clouds. hmmm…i’ll work on that.
xox
Wow. This post came at a perfect time for me. After nearly two months of NC, my ex of 3 1/2 years contacted me via email on Sunday morning after hearing through the grapevine that I got a new job. I did send a brief reply to him – thanking him for the congratulations and saying I hope he is doing well — no questions, no follow up; I just ended it. A few hours later he wrote me back in an extremely friendly tone, saying it’s great to hear from me and telling me that he ran his first half marathon over the weekend and is going to Africa to visit a friend next month. I’m a runner and when we were together he would NEVER run a race with me, which I had asked him to do. And coincidentally, I also took a trip to Africa this past February – it’s like he’s following me in my footsteps – without me! I was so mad/frustrated after I read his email, I wish I had never responded at all! This man broke my heart and I’ve been doing what I can to move on with my life (even have gone out on a couple of dates), and just don’t know what my ex’s intentions are with this email (hence the good timing of this post). I think I’m going to ignore it and go back to NC, because I really can’t hear how his life is better without me in it.
His intentions? To tell you how much you missed out by dumping him. It’s a smiling eff-you, look how great my life is, look at what you don’t have anymore. My ex made out like he was just being friendly when he called me to tell me he and his new girlfriend were expecting a baby. So why did it feel like he was punching me in the gut?
The subtle manipulative games people play when they’re hurt or their ego is bruised are why we end up going NC on exes.
Grace – I had to laugh when I read this, as I can so identify:
‘Trying to align my interpretation (he MUST like me) with what was happening (ie nothing) was making me a bit nutty’.
You’re exactly right – In fact, I’d take it a step further: If you need to analyse, you need to get out…
Ughh… devoting all of that time and energy on trying to figuring someone out… is just a waste of your precious time. And it will get you nowhere.
I can remember at times, when I was feeling especially emotional, I would look up narcissists, emotional unavailability, which led me to BR and I’ve stopped searching for ‘proof’ since.
This site, which I’m sure all of you would agree, has been a true Godsend. It’s so hard breaking free from a drama-filled, unhealthy relationship. In my experience, it lasted 7 years. Breaking up, getting back together, at least 50 something times. He always chased me though, not me calling/texting, was always him. Yes, I was ‘unavailable’ too, in certain ways. I could not fully committ to him, because deep down, I knew what he was all about. But yet, I was not strong enough to leave. Low self-esteem, and expecting to get blood out of a stone.
I guess what made it hard to leave and then finally stay away, was him blowing hot and cold. So confusing. One minute, he was wining n dining, saying ‘I love you’, let’s have a baby.. (dear God! lol), a few weeks later when I expected a normal, consistent relationship…it was something like this “why does anyone need to get married? ..I’m not even sure if I want a girlfriend”(umm… WTF? for real?) …then he’d disappear for weeks (sniffing around, shagging others, no doubt). I’d wait for the validation. Back together again.
For years… this drove me nuts. Could not understand the dynamic of it. When I read No Contact Rule… I just couldn’t believe what I was reading. I was reading about my EUM and my relationship w/ him that confused the hell out of me. I couldn’t believe that someone out there (many thanks Natalie!), pinpointed exactly what these relationships are about. Amazing.
7 months ago, I found this site. 7 months ago, I was sitting on my couch crying as I read NCR while he was disappearing for 3 weeks… dating other women.
Broke up a few more times since. This last time… I knew what my values were (and really…always have been), established boundaries (no, I’m not going to keep shagging and ‘hangin’ with you a few times a week… I felt like a teenager, not an adult), I want to be respected, cherished and loved, as is. Once those boundaries were in place…. he pulled another Houdini. It will be his last.
His…
Demke,
You can be loved, cherished, respected. Let his last Houdini be the last time. You have all the “proof” you need. Now you need strength. It’s funny that many of us found BR by trying to investigate what’s up with him and then ended up having to focus on us. I so totally relate to you. I couldn’t believe what I was reading when I first discovered BR. It was my life par none. The upside, so many folks have recovered and are leading happy fulfilling lives. We can too. Just gotta ditch these bottom feeders. There’s an ecological niche for bottom feeders but it took 2 years for me t0 get a grip and let go. Still struggle some days. However, I’ll never suck mud at the bottom of the lake.
This post makes me grin as I decided that it’s time to drop that tattered mac and throw away the magnifying glass!
Right now I have ample opportunity to put a lot of BR insights into action in a different area of my life: I grew up with a disabled sibling and I am his legal care taker. This role puts me in charge with a lot of decisions amongst them the choice of where he lives. For the third time I am confronted with institutional personnel that is in so many aspects not understanding, uncaring and I have to struggle with conflicts. It’s frustrating and of course I wondered why the heck do I have to encounter another bunch of inadequate care takers, amongst them some choleric types to scare me and to re-enact all the traumas of my past? “So unjust”, I could scream.
But this time I heeded all the red flags ASAP and instead of complaining, campaigning, convincing and reexplaining, playing nicey nice I draw the line and took action: searching a new home for my brother and not engaging in further power plays. Getting out on the market again, no matter how inconvenient. I got lucky and all the formalities are on the way now after I had to take a last round of talks just yesterday including the arrogant institutional proxy who didn’t leave out any opportunity to disregard me. I stood my ground as best as I could, restraining from telling him all about him and his institution, pointing and re-pointing that we don’t share common values which leads to end our contract. I wouldn’t have coped that well without all the BR posts.
I also realized that what triggers my wheel of fear is/was feeling rejected and jumping from one fear response to the other ultimately to get a retraction of their unjust accusations (Daddy issue) and no amount of hard facts could ever change their view of what I think my brother needs. This post wraps it up so well and is a wonderful support in my current situation. Thanks!
Please, cross your fingers as I need to get the green light from the authorities to move my brother to a better place. Did I mention that the new place does reflect my growth and that I intend to handle it like a co-piloted and committed (work) relationship? I’m really happy for my brother who’s a darling and for me to achieve some fruits eventually after all that (still ongoing) hard work. 😀
Arlena
I sympathise. I had to find a care home for my mother which involved dealing with lots of agencies. In the end, I didn’t care about being liked, or appeasing people, or trying to get them to understand the sorry story of my relationship with her. I shrieked for help from my siblings (and got it, I know many of us aren’t that fortunate), and just got what I needed from the non-caring professionals.
We have to look at what really matters. Our egos can get in the way of that. People have to think this about me, or that, or not think this. DOES THAT MATTER?
Thanks, grace, your kind words mean a lot to me. To be honest, for a very long time it MATTERED, madly. In the beginning I let myself train and skill up just to enhance my chances to make them see the light (= my take of things) and of course I wanted to be liked. Didn’t they see how much I cared and invested? Ironically, despite the fact that the facts speak for me as what I say is very substantiated, I lost it and took it hard and I had to go through a process that felt like being stripped. You are so right! It is/was for me so hard to let go of ego and get unattached to the outcome, give up the control of the uncontrollable and change to take action if things didn’t match at all, and often bite my tongue. It took me longer as I am literally alone with this and it rattled at my core anxieties. I decided to gift myself with a professional care taker, to officially side me, whom I pay privately for sanity talks and support. I stand taller than ever, committed to authenticity, letting my actions speak for themselves and may they think whatever they please. x
I feel embarrased and hurt. I met my mm who initially started out as a great work buddy. It stayed that way for years and sure there was a mutual crush, but it was really innocent and we ignored it and just focused on work and friendship. Neither of us by the way were married when the friendship started. We dated other people, not eachother ever and it seemed like the coolest bond ever.
He dropped out of my life like I was dead when he switched jobs. A few months later he reappeared in my inbox with a msg his grandmother died and we became friends again (reset button) We have remained friends now for 13 years both got married years ago, stayed in touch and friendly and supportive.. and in the past 1-2 yrs. got a little more romantically attached/ involved. NO physical relationship of ANY kind and we dont meet up we talk on email. Because of that friendly bond the romantic bond formed so subtely so slowly and under the radar I didnt really feel it happening until I realized I was knee deep. I felt horrified upon learning he had hid a pregnancy with his wife for 4 months. I mean, I still believed he was in love and happy with her, still put our platonic relationship first and never did either one of us plan to be together so I assumed this was just a crush and still trying to justify the innocence of it all. So why hide that? Couldnt I have been given the option to know and switch the type of friendship back to 100% platonic out of respect for this new chapter?
Now I feel betrayed, have to walk away, I am deeply wounded and dont know how to let go…I can get rid of the love over time but the loss of the friendship feels like death. My chest physically hurts, I am empty and feel hopeless, the time period of our bond was so long I dont know how long it will take to recover. What is an approximate time frame and how do I move forward? Also I cant obviously talk to my husband, friends or family. So I must face it alone.
c
I’m not sure there’s any such thing as a mutual crush. I had a crush and it was not at all mutual. Oh, how I looked for signs of mutuality but – if he was interested he would have asked me out. If you were both single, why didn’t you date each other? There is one very obvious reason why a single man doesn’t ask out a single woman he gets on well with – which doesn’t require any investigation – he doesn’t fancy you!
His wife should always be the no. 1 person in his wife. Only exception, as my brother said in front of a whole congregation: I love God, then I love my wife, then I love my children. If YOU want the no.1 spot then it’s not innocent. Innocence is more than not having sex.
It’s important to be aware of what it is that you’re feeling – this all seems hazy like a soft-focus advertisement. Nail it down – is it lust, loneliness, a need for attention, an ego boost, a fantasy, escapism, insecurity, jealousy, anger, resentment, competitiveness, disappointment, happiness, lightheartedness, fun? That way you know when things are tipping into the inappropriate and can do something about it. Sooner rather than, say, 13 years too late. You can put the brakes on your fantasizing or step away from the inbox or, if it becomes too much, cut contact. Not drift about telling yourself it’s innocent. Note that I leave love out of it. You can’t love someone you don’t know deeply, and emails don’t cut it.
What is missing in your own life that the end of some emails makes you feel empty and hopeless, and like someone has died?
I think there’s three touchstones that will help you:
1. He never felt the same way about you as you (think you) feel about him
2. He is not as great as you think he is and neither was your friendship
3. Nat’s Dreamer book.
(and you are both married)
C:
My recent EUM experience is very similar to yours! We met 15 years ago at work and have been good friends ever since. He was always hinting at us being together but never took any initiative, neither did I, simply because I was involved with someone else.
I must mention that in all these years he did have some gfs but nothing long standing, he never got married while I did and had two kids.
Anyway, we communicated frequently by emails and chat (it was all very innocent) and I felt his support was important to me when my marriage broke up. Now I´m seeing that was just his way to secure an ego boost – flatter me so I´d open up to him, in the hopes of some day adding me to his harem. Years later, when I had been divorced for a long time, he started to pursue me more seriously (I thought). I believed his interest was real, because after all, he had always been my friend! Why would someone mislead a good (if not best) friend? I still can´t understand it, it seems so cruel. All this time, he never had any real intention of being with me and even dated someone else.
My conclusion, after the worst year in my life in terms of relationships, is that he was always EU and very manipulative, and that I just never had the chance to notice it. Too innocent and trusting, perhaps. I could blame myself for that but what´s the use? He was the one who broke that trust. It makes me feel a bit better when I think that he´s the one who lost ME.
Lilia wow, I am truly grateful you shared this, 15 years. Amazing, and glad you saw the light. This gives me hope!
c-
i knew grace would address this, and she did.
to amplify one thing – the ‘what is missing from your life’ part that you were seeking in this connection – i’d look at that. see if you can find it in your life, whatever form of fulfillment you need (this is probably a legitimate need, by the way, you were just fulfilling it in an unproductive way) that you can get met in a way you can be proud of. if you can do that, you will really be fulfilled because it will be completely clean and honest. look at your marriage, your friendships, your hobbies, your job – maybe volunteer activities.
you need something real, not some facsimile of a work wife/husband situation with a deep history. and you need your real husband – look there, too.
Grace,
Not that it matters but am I imagining it or are you speaking to me as if I should be wearing the scarlett letter?
Because I read full on sexual long term affair stories here daily and I do not judge nor does anyone here seem interested in hanging them out to dry though I dont think anyone is also condoning.
What I am saying to you is, we werent married but were in other relationships off and on during our friendship. I didnt dream it up, in the past year he said he loved me daily, emailed and professed real true feelings. This is after subtle grooming and temperature checks to see how I was recieving his affections (I see this now, back then I just thought it was friendly flirting).
Yep I floated right down the path with him. I am sorry for it, we can debate right and wrong and morals all day but the situation remains, I walked away, and am still holding the bag of pain, regret, loss…Just a mess of a broken heart and what became of a true honest friendship, I believe we both wanted that to start. It got convaluted.
Ps. I never wanted to be with him forever, I didnt have that fantasy, We werent discussing being together, we were acknowledging attraction and consequently deepening a bond.
I just want help and support
ps. How many times have I read here…come back here and we will help you, you are not alone. Many of us have been there, talk with us, keep posting…yet I am getting the “get over it, you screwed up now deal with it and quit posting here” kinda vibe.
I am sensative and vulnerable and so admittedly I can be sensitive, but putting someone on the defensive who is fessing up to their pain, mistakes and regrets makes me want to isolate and spiral more. Today, I just wanted a soft place to fall. Maybe I dont deserve it.
c-
no, don’t isolate and spiral. no, you don’t deserve it. grace was just giving you tough love. yes, there was a lot of tough in it.
i (we) know it hurts. you were brave enough to walk away, and that bag of pain and anger and betrayal you’re holding, quite apart from the fact that it smells really awful, is a terrible insult.
this probably doesn’t make it better – but i guess the thing is that this guy, however wonderful he may otherwise be, imho, is too much of an ego-driven (“subtle grooming and temperature checks”) faking (leading you down the virtual garden path) sorry, jerk (hiding wife’s pregnancy for 4 months while doing so) to deserve your pain. it irks me so that you still speak in such loving terms about him – he doesn’t deserve them, he faked you, never understanding that he was risking REAL feelings on your part – that is not the mark of a good friend. i’m sorry, i know this probably doesn’t make it feel better, but i can’t stand what he did and how its affecting you.
i think…i think that we all get so frustrated with our own pain, and then we see someone else hurting because of similar circumstances, and it frustrates us all over again because we see how we hurt needlessly, and they hurt needlessly. and we just want it all to stop. but we are not disregarding your pain, nor the fact that you don’t have other outlets.
i am sorry that this close friendship blew into something that ended up hurting you. yes, we are here for you, don’t doubt that. truly.
c
I have read the responses to you and I don’t I don’t see anything different from the kind of comments/support that everyone else gets (and I’ve been reading BR for well over a year now). Some OWs, for example, are told more than straight that they are digging a very big hole for themselves and would be best advised to go get a very big spade! Plainly you are hurting a great deal; I’m sure we all appreciate that. However, BR commentators (and Natalie – I know, cos she did it to me!! Sheesh!) will be more than straight with you about how they see your situation. That’s why BR works so well for most who come here – it’s not a pity party. Sometimes when the pain is still very raw the straight-up comments can feel unsympathetic. But they’re not. Mostly they are just true. And that’s why it feels sore.
What you’re being told is that the deep and profound and loving and caring relationship that you think you have had cannot be got by years of emailing (whether you are married or not). I agree with those who have said that. I agree with Grace that you should try reading Nat’s dreamer and fantasy relationship book. Until you start to see that you have been investing a whole lot of yourself in a whole lot of not very much then you will remain pretty stuck in your pain. Emails only run so deep – not very.
yeah, c-
its not that support is being withheld – its that, in order to change our lives, we need to look at the things we can control, namely ourselves and our behavior, and evolve them. nobody is beating on you – and we are sympathetic to pain and hugs are available – but then patting you on the head about it is not going to help you.
he’s a jerk. but look at why you participated and what you thought you were going to get out of it. just because you didn’t expect to be with him forever doesn’t mean it wasn’t a fantasy. in fact, the reason you feel so bad is because its actually worse, you were also, to him, an option.
the overall point is, this “relationship” went on for a long time and those habits and drivers are deeply ingrained. if you want to break them, and to be happy, and to fulfill your life in a real way, you need to look underneath them. ‘s’all we’re sayin’.
I think what’s important to remember here C and anyone else who may feel similarly, is that this isn’t a forum and it’s a low BS atmosphere. People may be supportive in the comments but this isn’t a support group nor a replacement for professional help.
The commenting facility is here to respond to the post and must remain largely on topic.
Ideally, a comment should as a standalone comment look like it’s related to the post and I do discourage people from using the comments to tap up readers (who are already struggling with their own stuff) for advice, especially as it may actually cause some people to replicate Florence Nightingale behaviour that they’re actually trying to change. While as a result of what may be discussed here, people can find help and support as a by-product of it and some fantastic [on topic] discussions do arise that expand the subjects I write about here and help to foster a great community, it is too much to expect strangers on a blog to navigate each person’s sensitivities and lives in 1400 characters.
It is exactly for the issue that has arisen here today C, that I have a very specific commenting policy which minimises friction and expects each person to not only abide by the rules and respect boundaries, both mine, the site and of readers, but to also be 100% responsible and accountable for what is written. As it is a low BS environment AND it’s not a forum, you must consider if you’re ready for the possibility of a comment being responded to, because I have a responsibility both to you and all other readers. I don’t want to feel that by accepting comments from you that I am making your situation worse because you’re not in a good place right now, but I also don’t want to be having to delete comments, not because they’re not meeting guidelines, but so as not to run the risk of causing offence or friction starting up, which in turn creates an atmosphere.
Please read the commenting guidelines before you place anymore comments and this goes for anyone who hasn’t read these yet especially as I will be on a break from the end of next week and my assistant Kate will be managing comments.
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/about/site-use/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/faqs-comments/
c
I’m afraid that WAS my help and support.
All of us have had to face the unpleasant reality of our situations. It’s not soft. It’s hard. But worth it.
Today I woke up and – one, two, three, four, five – for that long I didn’t think of him. That’s the corner being turned. I can do this and so can you.
Wow as it turns out I was way off base on how I thought the comments worked. In a deeply hurt state I see I have indeed expected too much and expected differently and spouted out some of my inner pain and confusion here which I can assure you was not intentional.
Please accept my sincere apologies I am new here and read hndreds of posts crying and believed when I had the courage to post I would recieve a different type of commentary that was unrealistic of me. I was too sensitive to understand in those moments, thankful to all who reached out to share thoughts and have reviewed policies. Sorry again guys. Wish you all the best.
There’s no need to apologise C. There is a lot to be gained from reading and if you want to, commenting. I just wanted to make sure that you were clear on how things were to protect you – you’re already in a vulnerable state and we are only getting pieces not even the whole picture of how you are. You can certainly gain a lot from the blog – I hope that you are soon able to draw strength from it and gain some insights from what readers have responded with. Take care of yourself and don’t be thinking that there’s any issue – there really isn’t.
Right before the breakup, or in weeks right after breakup I find it really important and helpful to understand the facts. In the past I have even drawn-out monthly calendars and written-in the events…..
….all very helpful for me. I also realize that I do not need and cannot know everything! No need for it, won’t waste my time with it!
But to dwell/ get stuck on examining the other person is a horrible place to be. Not good, and I agree that it is better to focus on yourself and get on with your life including putting new people, places, and/or things in it to ease the pain which will be aided by time and distance from the other person. (Hang in there, You Can Do It!)
It is such a relief when the thoughts of that X do not automatically occur. PEACE!!!!!!! …”See You, Wouldn’t want to be you” and “Forget You”.
Funny & Little Star…
You are so on point! “They can do only what you allow them to do”. First and above all… love yourself more that anyone else ever could or would. Anyone that comes into you life after that is just a bonus. If it works, than good, if not then you’ve lost nothing that makes you.. You. And I love me.. fiercely!. Thank you, Natalie.
I am so guilty of this. Not trying to diagnose him, but I told him about himself an awful lot, and now I cringe at giving him so much attention. I laugh at Natalie’s ‘what the what’ because that was what I got.
I am free of him but my mind still boggles. I can’t explain it without sounding naive and hard done by. But this ex-AC ticks nearly all the BR boxes. Reset button, fast forwarding, inconsistent, harem king etc. All along I knew he was no good, how did our relationshit deepen so much that the more I got to know him over the years, the more taken in I was and the more I fell for him? I see things much more clearly now, that the times we were so close were crumbs, just the build up to being dropped again and ignored, being ignored and rejected was the norm. I know what that says about me and am dealing with it. I still wish I could understand him.
What the eff was going on in his head? Just bumbling along following natural misguided, hedonistic instincts with no responsibility, or proud of his playing? I feel like it would be helpful to know because I don’t know whether I should be angry, even if he’s technically done anything wrong since he had his disclaimers. I know, I know. It’s not the right question to ask, but I would get that dirty mac on right now and trawl the alleys of NYC if it got me an answer.
happy b
Shelve it. Get on with your life. Fill it with things you enjoy, and with quiet moments of contemplation (not of him). Then, if you care to, take it off the shelf, look at it again, and you’ll have your answer. Park it for now, what’s the rush?
We all believe that thinking and thinking about it will get us the answer. But I heard a chinese proverb today (I am chinese):
If you search everywhere for something and cannot find it, it means you already have it.
Darn Grace, I’m not Chinese but I wish I were. This one is golden. Just had one of those quiet moments of contemplation this afternoon. Swear to god, I’ve shelved it, parked it, and I’m not inclined to think it off the shelf. I “harvested” my first basil for dinner tonight. Can’t help but thinking of you all day while I quietly garden.
Happy b, there’s probably not much going on in their head. I told the exMM so much about himself that my mind boggles as to why I wasted my time. Talk about a woman who talked too much. Yup, I’ll see your disclaimers and raise them. That’s what EU’s (shoppers) do, disclaim. And Dreamers, dream despite their opining to the contrary. You’ve got the answer with regard to him. Now, the journey begins…why would you be involved with him? That’s the focus that has helped me. What’s up with me?
Wow, Grace, I’m so in awe of you! Haven’t you written your own book! I want it!
“I feel like it would be helpful to know because I don’t know whether I should be angry, even if he’s technically done anything wrong since he had his disclaimers.”
I know this one well – and I wonder if I undermine my own progress every time I get angry by going “is this reasonable? Am I reasonable? Am I? Really?” Then I have to go through the whole (by now very long) saga again and whoops, back to denial, or bargaining, or depression again.
I think that it has something to do with not being very comfortable with anger – which I’m not, I generally equate it to a loss of control and Bad Things Happening. But also, I think that there’s an element of “Don’t I deserve this pain, really?” to it.
I’ve been holding onto the belief that, really, I don’t deserve very much in the way of kind or fair treatment for a very long time and I reckon it’s easier, sometimes, for my brain to fall back into thinking that I deserved to be treated badly because I was obtuse, or annoying, or not very attractive, or just because I’m damn unlucky.
The truth is that I deserved to be treated badly for one reason and one reason only – because I CHOSE to put up with it.
In any case, I find it helpful to remember that, really, his REASONS for treating me badly are neither here nor there. He just did. We can all make excuses for anything that we want to do (fr’example, I want to kick my cat right now, because she has a piercing and incessant miaow) but would you really be so forgiving of yourself if you hurt someone so badly for ANY reason? Even if it was by mistake? Even if there were ‘reasons’?
I’m guessing not. In which case, apply those standards to him and let yourself feel angry, you’re allowed. It wasn’t okay – and if he thought it was then he was making excuses and being deliberately obtuse at the expense of someone else’s wellbeing.
I agree with yoghurt, the fact that we choose to let someone treat us badly is no let off for them and we are absolutely entitled to be angry whatever their intentions. We don’t have to know anything else, blame ourselves, excuse them or anything. Yes of course we need to look at ourselves to ensure we don’t let ourselves be treated badly again but as for them, get angry! Never mind his disclaimers – bad treatment is bad treatment. Otherwise it is like you waiting for him to give you permission to be angry by providing a confession. Excuse my language but bollocks to that!
Grace, Yoghurt, Runnergirl, Polly, thank you so much.
I can make a composite of all your replies and say-
I know and have the answer (a quick search inside) and it is-
He is driven by ego boosts.
This can be framed in many ways. Egotistical and selfish, or lacking in confidence and needing to be fawned over (gets bored and rejects when he achieves this goal). But either way, he prioritised his ego over my wellbeing, which was clearly in decline in the years we lived together. So, as Yoghurt perfectly put it,
Deliberately obtuse.
So my anger is justified.
But now I need to get to more important crime scenes.
Case closed.
Yoghurt, I had similar thoughts. I thought, why should he change his behaviour? It’s too much to ask (and once I broke down, saying please stop humiliating me!). He wasn’t losing from the situation, while I was, so I was the one who had to like it or lump it, and I was letting him treat me like this, even asking for it, even initiating things with him.
But would I ever apply that standard to myself? Would I ever say, this person is letting me rob them of their values, self esteem, prime years and so on, and because I’m getting something from it and they’re not, I’m not the one with the problem so I should carry on until they finally push me away? Not in a million years because I am not interested in someone who asks me to mistreat them, they don’t make me feel good about myself.
I keep thinking as I write this stuff, ‘but he was a rock, he cared so much, he looked after me’… I guess we look at the net result. Everyone on here who has fallen foul of an assclown will have felt loved some of the time.
‘Case closed’ was not quite literal!
I had the same exact experience as you.
With the only AC I ever dated in my life.
Who on the record always wanted someone like me.
Who am I? Not to brag, or go la-dee-da, but I am:
– grad-school educated & very good at what I do (attorney);
– the daughter of a “power couple”–2 CEOs, who each respectively make well into 7 figures (U.S. Dollars) per year, in their own respective businesses (btw, my parents love each other madly and I grew up in a very happy family);
– told that I look “beautiful, just like a movie star” & am “easy on the eyes; & am thin;
– someone who has always had a terrific reputation, personally & professionally; and who is well liked by pretty much everyone–many turn to me for advice.
– Etc. etc. etc.
By dating me–JUST BY DATING ME–the AC, who then wasn’t ready for marriage, proved/validated TO HIMSELF how “terrific” he was and how he, thus, was “entitled” (in HIS MIND ONLY) to keep searching “for better.”
He wasn’t ready for any sort of commitment when we went out.
He ended up marrying his longtime-FBG. Which I couldn’t understand/comprehend for the longest time. Especially as this goes against what Natalie talks about: Come on! They almost NEVER marry their FBGs! And how could he do this–marry a FBG, which NEVER HAPPENS–when he had me (in b/w his biggest break-up with her & going back to her)–and I was what he always wanted!
I didn’t get it for so long.
But the answer is this: these are selfish spoiled brats with whom no one can have a decent relationship. At least not for a verrrry long time. I always say that he will appreciate his wife only after he sees the pain his daughter goes through after dating an AC like him.
It’s crazy-making. Don’t go there! Let it go!
And NC anyone who still is in touch with him. You don’t want to hear about him at all. For the rest of your life.
You don’t, ever, want/need to be reminded of how you were treated/abandoned/rejected by him.
Give yourself more credit, for being an empathetic, decent, etc., person.
Give him the dis-credit of being what he was!
These people are not worth it!
Er, correction! Lots of Mr Unavailables and Fallback Girls get married – it can be The Flogger and the Convenient One With His Feet Set In Cement, or The Cheater or even an overgrown manchild. Many Florence Nightingales also get married – basically just because someone is Unavailable doesn’t mean that they don’t get married. Why do you think cheating in marriage happens? Or abuse? Could be a good time for you to read the book if you still haven’t got closure on this.
Nice reminder Natalie. Thank you. Yup all sorts of unavailables get married, my self included! It’s not about being married. You are right Used, it’s time to move on. No more Inspector Gadget.
The ex-Ac fits all of the above categories NML brings up to a tee.
As I said, no loss
Cc,Grace and Ms.Awake,
Thank you for your advice. Cc I too wish you could drill a hole in my head and add those things. I really don’t know how to love or vallue myself anymore. It makes it really hard because like he admitted Sunday he is either extremely great or extremely bad. I truly think (and here I am diagnosing) that he is a master manipulator. I said to him Sunday night ” so you can’t commit to being with me but you can’t commit to being without me”. And he replied in genuinely puzzled voice ” Is that so wrong?” At times he really does not seem to have normal emotions.
I know my only choice is to walk away or continue to live in hell. I just don’t know where to get the strength. He has loved me up and pushed me away so many times that the only way I know to feel good again is to be back in the place where he is treating me like he adores me.
Btw cc is funny that you said it was a hot mess. He has described himself as a hot mess a couple of times.
Ms. O,
I can’t add anymore to all the great comments. I did go back and read Nat’s post regarding No Such Thing as an Honest Cheat. Thanks Sunshine for the reminder. And I reread all the comments. Your situation almost a year ago features prominently in the comments. Fearless and Grace were on fire. But apparently to no avail. Thus, I can’t add much other than to say, I’m sorry you are still in this situation a year later. Your situation could have been me but for the grace of somebody, probably Natalie and BR. The exMM always described himself as f**ked up. At some point, I listened. “He has loved me up and pushed me away so many times that the only way I know to feel good again is to be back in the place where he is treating me like he adores me”. Yeah but he doesn’t. The Sunday night episode where he ditched you to have dinner with the neighbors…no more analysis. Thank you Natalie for allowing this thread. It really helped me and Ms. O, I’m glad you are back. I have the Phd in your exMM. He’s a hot mess. Don’t Florence. How are your kids, BTW? Thank you Natalie and Ms. O. You really helped me.
ms. o-
i’ll take it as a dubious honor and uncomfortable coincidence that your hot mess agrees with me that he is a hot mess.
” Is that so wrong?” YES!!! it. is. so. wrong. AND it is so wrong that you so easily forget that the times you get back to the place where he treats you “like” he adores you – notice the like; he doesn’t actually adore you – will be SWIFTLY followed by his selfish retreat.
read what runnergirl said 1000 times. this cycle is unhealthy. you can break it if you choose to. so? what’s the choice? who will fight for you if you don’t?
FIGHT for yourself by breaking this cycle. dump him and go NC. and fergodssakes, change your damn screen name. start there, change that identity, and maybe you’ll believe you can follow through.
Oh, Ms. O. Natalie’s second relationship commandment: “don’t let someone treat you as an option”.
You have already waited around for this guy for long enough, and now he’s asking you to put yourself on hold even longer while he decides what *he* wants? And the “is that so wrong?” comment makes me want to give him a smack. He’s admitted to you that he sees nothing wrong with treating you as an option. Your answer to “is that so wrong?” should be something along the lines of, “Yes, it is. I want and deserve someone who *knows* that he wants to be with me and no one else, and who will step up and treat me with the love, respect, and consideration that I deserve. You are obviously not that person, and so I need to move on with my life. Goodbye”
The thing is, to put it mildly, this guy is incredibly selfish and inconsiderate. Even if he decides that he wants to be with you, those are not traits that you want in a partner….they will manifest themselves in other ways down the road.
If you know your options are to either “walk away or continue to live in hell”….well, what are you waiting for? The choice seems clear.
Ms Option:
” so you can’t commit to being with me but you can’t commit to being without me”.
Same for you Ms O. You can’t commit to what he is actually offering you and you can’t commit to being without him.
He has shown you (for years?) what the deal is. You may want it to be something else, but it is what it is and you must know by now what it is, surely. It’s easy to grumble that “he” never makes up his mind; never makes a decision; never gets both feet in and never gets both feet out, but the truth is that we are the pot calling the kettle black.(I know, I did this for years with the ex EUM, so I am not preaching here – just trying to warn you!)
So, Option, do yourself a favour and stop waiting for someone else to do what you won’t do yourself – do it yourself, for yourself. Take charge of your own life, make your own decisions and stop waiting for a man who doesn’t know his arse from his elbow to do it for you, stop waiting for him to let you know what’s going to happen to you next (and what that is is totally predictable!). Take your power back. You know what your choices are. Make your decision.
Hmmm, been thinking about this one a lot. I spent two years of my life doing it. I’m now probably a very good amateur psychologist (contradiction in terms), qualified to set up my own internet horoscope site (although will probably wait until Saturn leaves my fourth) and able to spot and diffuse a passive-aggressive argument at twenty paces (comes in handy at work).
But none of it helped.
One of the things that I find difficult about it is that element of vanity. I HATE being as unimportant and nonentical as I am in his head… and wow, if I could be that unimportant when I was pregnant with his child, how unimportant does that make me in my normal state? I want to be important, dammit! I want to be a figure of intrigue and significance! *stamps* I want to be a main character, not just some poxy background figure in the Film Of His Life! Surely, somewhere, I’m going to feature in a sub-plot?
Well, that’s tough. In any case, the Film Of His Life would probably be a fairly self-aggrandizing, dull affair. The Film Of MY Life is more interesting, so really I should be paying attention to that.
The other things that I find helpful is to think of it as a bad debt. Yep, if you were to look at it in terms of what he actually owes me, I reckon about forty-eight handwritten apologies, a lifetime of servitude and possibly the down payment on a house would just about cover it, but I ain’t going to get it. You can’t get blood out of a stone, and keeping those worthless IOUs was just cluttering up my head.
I’ve tried chasing up those IOUs, I’ve spent – literally – years trying to work out what in HELL he spent the money on, why he didn’t even attempt to set up a payment plan and even to acknowledge that they’re in his handwriting, but it’s ultimately pointless. All I can do is write them off and stop him from trying to borrow anymore. And yes, it’s annoying that I’ve been skint and he’s living the life of riley on ill-gotten gains, but then I shouldn’t have lent my self-esteem out in the first place.
I tend to think in allegories so I’m not sure that any of this is helpful to anyone else, but saying them firmly to myself does tend to help when I’m spiralling into Analysis Oblivion…
Incidentally, I should add that I DO know what his intentions were, and I’ve a fairly good understanding of why he behaved – and still sometimes behaves – as he did/does:
a) he was depressed (suicidal at points) and therefore didn’t give too much of a toss about anything
b) he’s quite cowardly and doesn’t like dealing with difficult situations head-on (ie my pregnancy)
c) he was relatively fond of me but didn’t see me as ‘relationship material’ for a variety of reasons, which include my somewhat unpolished appearance and my age (ouch… why, when I know that it’s a reflection on how shallow he is, does that still sting?)
d) he doesn’t much like the fact that he hasn’t come out of the whole situation smelling of roses and would prefer not to think about it much
e) he would prefer to spend time concentrating on the aspects of the situation that DO make him smell of roses, and with people who think that he does
f) he knows that my opinion of him isn’t good, and doesn’t particularly see the point of trying to restore it
g) he doesn’t think that my feelings matter much
h) I’m not very useful to him anymore, as there are other people to talk to and be reassured by
i) I’m not that important to him and
j) he doesn’t much care how I feel, particularly as he doesn’t really have to know about it.
Easy, innit? Not very nice, though – I have to admit that I’m not surprised that I spent a LONG time trying to put a different spin on it.
yoghurt, of course you spent time on trying to spin it, you had a kid with him and everything. but now you see it. i’m sorry the real picture…looks the way it does.
re: needing to smell like a rose – an AC i briefly dated and then booted (the one who tried to stay with me and then ended up sleeping in the same bed as his ex – niiiiice) told me, when i pointed out to him that his behavior was taking on a decidedly cadly cast, about how his father, who had always prided himself on being mr. hero, would belittle him because of his poor character. and i didn’t know what to take from it: that your own father thinks you’re a piece of shit, too (and you’re actually telling me this)? that you are warning me that you have a bad reaction to being told you’re a cad because your father did it too (and by the way, he was right)? that you know you’re a cad, and have historical evidence to prove it? i found it an odd and highly informative reaction (i have some things to tell you about myself -> father story) to my saying um, you’re not treating me right and you’re behaving unacceptably.
it just floored me how someone can act like a snake and either endlessly justify it or insist that, despite their actions, *you’re* the one who is flawed for thinking ill of them. this guy told me i had trust issues – which i take as a compliment, since he’s a con artist.
the thing i learned from this is that, as you say, these guys seek their own level, generally with people who either have their own agenda or are too dumb to see them for who they really are. so, of course you want to be important, and you ARE important, but don’t grieve the lack of his good opinion – it isn’t worth having – don’t wish for a cad/loser/money moocher to think you’re the bees knees, that is NOT high praise.
i’m sorry, though.
more…
it isn’t vanity (or neediness) to want to be seen, heard, valued, loved, adored, cherished, protected, honored. not vanity at all.
thank you. This made me want to cry. But in a good way.
Thanks cc, that’s a lovely response and I really appreciate it. 🙂
Oh, them and their fathers, piffley excuses… Son’s dad had a one of those sorts of a situation as well, only his was the same sort of nasty womaniser and he didn’t approve at all. I read loads into it and analysed it and analysed it and came up with alsorts of theories, including one about a Family Curse (dark times). But, really, he either a) didn’t approve of that sort of behaviour, in which case don’t do it, or b) he did, in which case don’t whinge about it. Either way – Get A Grip!
(Should add that I love his mum, though, we are quite similar)
Your one sounds like he was trying to say “I’m really very damaged, see my damage and mend me, don’t make it WORSE, I can’t HELP IT…” Yes you can. Shut up and crack on with being a human being anytime.
I’m not really bothered about his opinion anymore, per se – he only liked me when I blindly accepted whatever drivel he wanted to come out with that day, and then despised me for it at the same time, so I couldn’t win.
Tbh my main feeling about it these days is that I dislike having someone in my life and sharing someone really precious (Son) with someone who doesn’t like or care about or rate me at all. It makes me feel a bit scrabble-to-get-awayish, especially the more I realise that there really is nothing that I can say or do to change it.
But fear is not love. Fear is fear. And I’ve got this far, which I think makes me fairly formidable myself 🙂
“One of the things that I find difficult about it is that element of vanity. I HATE being as unimportant and nonentical as I am in his head… and wow, if I could be that unimportant when I was pregnant with his child, how unimportant does that make me in my normal state? I want to be important, dammit! I want to be a figure of intrigue and significance! *stamps* I want to be a main character, not just some poxy background figure in the Film Of His Life! Surely, somewhere, I’m going to feature in a sub-plot?”
I know how you feel, and it reminds me of the song – Mesmerizing by Liz Phair! check it out!
Cheers nikki 🙂
I listened to it, liked it, listened to some more… I’ll see your Mesmerizing and raise you Ant in Alaska as a classic fbg song.
Ant… soooo classic! lol! Many apropos on there. I think of “Exile in Guyville” as that letter written and never sent, but broadcast and gone platinum!
Oh dear – I did this too! I analysed and analysed and analysed – until it became an obsession and I realised that what ever issues he had it paled in comparison to mine! I analysed it because it made me think something was happening – it felt interesting…when if I had taken a break from analysing I would have noticed that whilst we were getting to be friends rather than just a booty call…nothing romantic was happening at all! And yes I am sure he has issues. But I am not too interested in what anymore, all I know is that after 3 1/2 years it isn’t a relationship and he is as confusing as ever. But if I stop thinking it isn’t all about me it isn’t quite as confusing really. I guess analysing was better than accepting that I had been rejected by someone who I had arrogantly thought would be grateful to have me and I would be secure with. I was wrong. He was excited iniatially than reality kicked in and he realised that beyond attraction there was little there for him and he began to look elsewhere (whilst not telling me mind you!). Yes he doesn’t want me to find someone else – becuase no one he wants a relatinoship with has worked out for him yet and he gets depressed when lonely and I fill that gap quite well. Simple, end of story. Am glad we are just friends now. And no more analying his problems for me – in the end I thought I was behaving like obsessive freak and if he knew the extent of it he would have run the other way – with good reason.
What’s hilarious is wading into the comments on this topic and finding people are still engaging in “analysis” of their partners.
I dunno, I’m seeing a bit of that but I’m seeing more people analysing their analysis.
Some folk are just analytical – me, I’ll analyse a cheese sandwich if there’s nothing else handy. And as it comes in very useful at work and the like I’m not going to beat myself up about it.
I don’t think that analysis in itself is a bad thing, it just is when you’re analysing faulty information based on someone else’s lies or your own little fantasy dream-world. THEN you’ll go round and round in circles trying and failing to match the ‘results’ of your analysis with reality.
Or else – in the case of this blog – you’re analysing a relationship that is (or should be) dead and buried as a means of justifying the fact that you’re still invested in it.
I’m finding that the difference between the analysis that I used to do and the analysis that I do now is the dull final ‘thunk’ of reality hitting my skull when I realise, once again, that There’s Nothing There. That’s a finite and a useful sort of analysis, imo.
….i know….
I disagree also. I searched the net for 2 months, googling and gathering information on personality disorders and traits (including this site) and after being well armed with facts and information that I had no idea about before, came to my own educated conclusions about what I was dealing with in this man for the past 2 years, and whether his behaviour was intentional. It was totally empowering and I learned so much. I started eating again after getting down to 50kg and felt such relief. I had some idea about what was going on at the time but it made no sense, and knew I could not move forward until I got to the bottom of it. Since that time, I broke my no contact and talked to him about what I thought was going on and he was actually very open to the idea. There is nothing wrong with getting on the net and learning as much as you can about anything of interest or something that is affecting your life, and it is certainly not a waste of your time. After all, that is exactly how we all got here, looking for help and answers, and it seems a lot of us now have them. I am completely happy with who I am, and I certainly know my worth. I just needed explanations, and that is what I got, it doesn’t matter how you get there.
When I first broke up with “That man”, one of the first things I did was seek to learn who he was in psychological terms, so I could label him – Psychotic, Sociopath, Narcissist, AC or EUM. I spent a large amount of time on this. Gradually, the more reading and studying I did I realized that he did not fit neatly and entirely into one category. He was a little of all of those things. Then, I started asking myself why it was so important to me to engage in this fruitless endeavor. Was I trying to find a reason why it could never work out between us? Finally, I realized that it really did not matter what I labelled him. The bottom line was we were not at all compatible, had no business getting involved in the first place and that I made the correct decision to go NC and never, ever go back on it. That was the beginning of the massive healing that took place within myself. My life is a million times better now than it was this time last year. And BR has contributed hugely to my growth and emotional stability. I am no longer EU and my new “friend” is definitely not an EUM. I’m at peace.
I recently discovered that my ex (who told me I was not emotive or dramatic enough for her) actually left me for a coworker/friend whom I’d known, and they were engaged only four months later. This new information cast the whole relationship in a new light: Their business trips, her mood swings and the surprising breakup suddenly made a lot more sense. For a week I was consumed with trying to decide for sure whether she was cheating on me — even while telling me she loved me and future faking, etc. It’s possible that she didn’t start with him until immediately after the breakup, but it makes more sense that there was at least an emotional affair. I almost kind of hope there was an affair, so that I can say she was a rotten liar and cheater and be done with it. But would it really help me to know for sure, if I even could?
Simon, if it helps – There Was An Affair.
This is why so many innocent and unsuspecting people get such a surprise when they find their ex-partner is dating/living with/engaged to someone new about a week after they broke up. The Next Big Thing was already waiting in the wings – some people can’t or won’t leave a person unless they have their safety net all nicely lined up and waiting for them.
You are well shot of someone who tells you that you are not ’emotive or dramatic enough for her’. I can’t imagine anyone more exhausting.
Like who gets engaged FOUR MONTHS later. Jaysus! Something definitely not right there!
Don’t blame yourself though. It could have been with someone else, if not them.
True, and in my humble opionion it is women that are capable of putting a fullstop on something without the next big thing lined up already, while men ALWAYS have the next one already when they check out, otherwise they just stay put.
That seems a bit of a generalization… my ex was a woman and she was official with the next guy within two weeks, and previously they were close work friends.
Yeah, I know a fair few females who’ve had a relationship in sight before leaving one, even one ready to go (i.e. overlap). I think idea that this is a male-inclination comes from the ‘fact’ that divorced men are more likely to couple up again than divorced women. There might be some other reasons. But these categories don’t matter for you. She was a woman, and she very likely pulled a swift one. It’s really hard when you’re in something like this, not to feel it as being interminably close to you, but she did what she did for her own mixed reasons, some of which are likely not to be knowable to her, let alone expressible. Sometimes these new, hasty relationships work out, often they don’t. Regardless, there will be a rough patch when the momentum slows down and questions arise, and they have to both actually work at being loving and accountable to another person. I wouldn’t idealise their relationship, is all I am saying. Meanwhile, you have all this new space in your life to fill! It’s an exciting, refreshing time, really!
simon-
i gotta agree with ethelreda. but if it helps – something was up anyway if she was telling you you weren’t “dramatic” enough for her. emotive, ok, but dramatic? no. that’s not right. and you say she was future faking? look, i’m sorry, its a loss, and an insult that she took up with him so quickly and apparently decisively, but you deserve better.
i have a feeling you’ll eventually find out what happened, probably when you least expect it. be ready for that. the information will just come to you, so i don’t think you need to waste time on research.
Lilia,
Thanks for insight into the wife’s point of view. I do want to make it clear that he didn’t leave his wife for me. He left because he was very unhappy with her. The last straw was when he caught her stealing from him. And no the last three months there has been no happy family. He refused to pay her car payment anymore. She lost her car. He would leave every morning and stay at his parents until after dinner and she’s stuck at home with a baby and no way to go anywhere. When I look back on it, it seems pretty cruel. I suspect that maybe she got sick of it and maybe she decided she had enough also.
Runner girl,
Good to hear from you again. You are right I was in this same mess a year ago. I really wish I would have listened then. No he doesn’t adore me. I can’t tell you how many times he has made plans with me, I get ready and then don’t hear from him until a couple of hours after the fact. Then he gets mad ( I can’t really say he gets mad,it’s kind of strange I have never seen him mad. He just turns kind of cold) if I don’t forgive him right away. But you are right Sunday night really proved how he feels about me. I got ready, didn’t eat because I was waiting to eat with him. And then he says he just finished eating dinner so nonchalantly. But then turns around and tells me he doesn’t feel like being around anyone but it was hard to turn down a free meal. Its still unbelievable to me.
But now I know all those times when I thought he couldn’t get away or call me,etc. it wasn’t because of his wife, it was him. I am trying to see him for what he is now. He had a degrading term he called his wife suckabus(I think that’s how it’s spelled) after some mythological creature that sucked the life out of you. I think that term is more fitting for him.
I could go on and on about things he has done and said but there’s no point. I can say I’m not the only one he treats this way. He even said most people can only handle him in small doses. I guess that should make me feel a little better.
I am glad to be back and have the advice and wisdom of you and others like you. I have a long way to go to get back to the person I was before my walk on the dark side. That’s what it feels like.
Ms. O,
At least you don’t need to spend the next year investigating his intentions. He has spelled it out for you in words and in actions. And it sounds like you don’t need to convince him that he’s and Class A AC. It sounds like he knows he’s a jerk. What you’ve described regarding the situation with his (former?) wife sounds awful.
I don’t have anything wise to say other than you can get your life back and be in a different place next June. However, you are probably going to need to bite the bullet and NC him big time.
From cyberspace, he doesn’t sound like a prize. Hugs to you.
This guy sounds like a miserable piece of work. He probably hates himself but takes it out on the women he gets involved with. He gets his jollies degrading you and making you feel smaller than he feels. I’ve been in your shoes. By staying with this sort of AC, you’re agreeing to his terms. And the terms are, you both agree that you suck.
You need to rescue yourself. Make a choice. Choose YOU.
Great post . I’ve been there myself, shifting the blame seems to be the easiest option as the harder one is actually looking at yourself. We all have choices but are sometimes blinded by lust and don’t see the red flags glaring at us however anyone with a decent amount of love trust and respect for themselves knows their self worth and wouldn’t subject themselves to the torture x game over pull the plug out of there! It’s harder to look at your own issues but when you realise your also the common denominator clarity prevails and you make a choice to stop the pain. Ignore, flush delete! Hold your head up high :). As my Dad , a great, kind man said to me as I was crying about my assclown ‘settling down’ with someone new and amazing. ‘H, no one amazing would be with him’. X
On this occassion I don’t entirely agree with this post. Not everyone who finds themselves involved with an AC with serious issues is EU. I wasn’t. I also think it can be very helpful in the early stages of trying to make the break with such a person to research some of the issues these people suffer from in order to assist with freeing ourselves. The reason for this is that what we can learn from such research can help enormously to break the spell of who we thought they were as opposed to who they really are. Yes it would be a lot simpler to opt out at the first sign of a red flag but there are cases where these are deliberately hidden from the other party. Once we see them we try to get out but find that doing so is sometimes a process rather than a single event On the other hand it is important to relate what we learn back to ourselves. Identifying what made us vulnerable to such a person in the first place for example is important, to prevent such a thing happening again. I would add that I’m not a person with a pattern of dating EU’s or AC’s in adulthood as fortunately for me, my experience was limited to one person. Thus, I agree it’s important to focus on ourselves but also feel that knowing the beast with which we wrestle can put us at a distinct advantage in shattering the illusions & taking off our rose colored glasses.
PS I also don’t think break ups should be about apportioning blame, but rather taking responsibility for ourselves. Sometimes we make bad decisions. Other times we are too trusting. Others yet might be looking for a relatship to fix a life in which they feel unhappy & unfulfilled. Whatever the case, it’s about taking responsibility for our part in what happened & moving on. Sometimes our part, in terms of ‘wrongdoing’, compared to the other person’s is negligable. Even so, it’s STILL about moving on & being determined to try to prevent being taking advantage of again in future. Here’s the thing though. Relationships are involve taking a risk. If we always play it safe we’ll never know for sure if something would have worked out or not. Inherent in risk is the possibility of failure, getting burned or things just not working out as we may have hoped. Sometimes this is for healthy & legitimate reasons & no-one was disrespectful, EU or an AC. I’ve had a handful of such relationships & they were fine. The trick I think to healthy relationships is practising how to opt out. I did this one. Deliberately dated three people & practised the skill of opting out. I didn’t realise at the outset I would need to of course, but with each I was aware that if it got to that point, this was the skill I was practising. The first time took me 6 mths between knowing it wasn’t right me & finding the courage to opt out. The second time took me 3 mths & the third time only a matter of 3 weeks. I did this many years ago now in my mid 20’s. It was one of the best things I have ever done & I highly recommend it. 🙂
It does seem odd to spend so much time trying to diagnose someone else but I’ve been there. It’s like one day you are a rock star and the next they don’t even want you in their life anymore. You are left wondering WTH did I do? And it really eats at you even if you have great self esteem. These are not normal breakups where the end of the relationship was apparent, these situations are like having the rug pulled out from underneath you. And it really leaves you unstable. It feels almost impossible to move on. Processing a normal breakup is honestly pretty easy, I’ve usually been the one doing the breaking up and even when I’ve been dumped it’s taken me like a week or so to finally be like eh ok. But with the AC…. I literally feel like I’m constantly walking around in this fog like hangover not sure WTH just happened. Some days I’m done with him and other days I will either hear a song, or see something on TV that ignites a memory or something and next thing you know I’m friggin’ Inspector Gadget. I am worried this is never going to end. I’m going to be 88 years old still searching. And common sense doesn’t seem to work. The obvious doesn’t put me at peace at all because somewhere in me I am CONVINCED there is something I am missing. It’s really quite insane! And if one of my friends was acting like me, I’d have already whooped her upside the head. Sigh….
reality-
if it helps…
i’m finding that, with my EUM, who admittedly was not an AC, the ache is there but fades with time and with every experience i have with a non-AC, non-EU person. i gain more perspective of how life can be and it matters less, i see how it was screwed up more, so i miss him/us less. i wonder if the ache will always be there, though. while i could see the end of the relationship, and even orchestrated it, it still felt like i had the rug pulled out from under me when he finally didn’t ante up like he could have. my heart doesn’t quite get it how he could not love me back. but alas…
and…there may in fact be something you’re missing, but maybe its not what you think or what you worry about. and it probably has nothing to do with you. if this person was really an AC, it definitely had nothing to do with you but most certainly had everything to do with him. so, maybe its really not worth finding out, or maybe the information will float its way to you at some point and it will be pathetic or disgusting or shocking in some other ‘thank god i dodged that bullet even though i got shot’ kind of way. so, even while the question may keep niggling at you, which is NOT insane, maybe it doesn’t have to carry the weight it does now.
getting the rug pulled out from under you is a terrible shock, and you chip or fracture or something, and that is really, really hard to heal. just don’t pick on yourself. and god forbid it happens to one of your friends, you’ll be compassionate about it, because you know how it sucks. but try to not go Gadget – it just isn’t worth it and you should have peace. try to flip the ‘i don’t want you any more’ switch. because you deserve better than to want someone who would do that to you.
Reality
I still sometimes feel like I need some kind of explanation that I can make sense of. I feel I have made fair sense of my own part – but his? I’m still bewildered, really. I was on and off with mine for ten years and I’m still “waiting” for him to even acknowledge that we are not seeing each other anymore. Pfft. (I went NC about a year and a half ago – in fits and starts – but eventually it stuck with me). I know exactly what you mean in your comment. The whole thing is so weird that you just can’t get your head around it.
I think they find it easy to disconnect because they have not made any real connection in the first place. They have feelings for us maybe, but they are fleeting/momentary/changeable/inconsistent. Ultimately, they are not invested. If it’s working for them then they’re doing it, if it’s not then they’re not. End of.
I still sometimes am overcome (a propos of nothing, oddly) by a sudden resurgence of profound hurt over it all. I bury it though. I find that trying to make sense of them/investigating them/wanting an explanation leads me only to impotent fury! And I don’t need to be proved right, cos I know I got it very, very wrong! I would actually feel quite embarrassed if I had to explain to him why I ended it- cos I’d have to admit that I came to realise that I was just a relationship idiot in love with another relationship idiot! It really is more fruitful to investigate yourself and your own intentions and stop being a relationship idiot, cos that’s what got us here in the first place.
Sorry you’re feeling a little raw, Fearless. You’re a brave person.
Aw, Elle, thank you. Your little comment nearly made me cry… I didn’t know I was brave (me? sheesh). Thank you. (I hope you’re doing well x)
CC and Fearless…. thank you!
It does help to know I’m not the only one who has had these challenges and feelings. Most days I am ok with processessing it, other days I trip up and I just think it’s unfortunate that any of us had to experience something like this at all.
Keep strong ladies!
As much as I do love to analyze, I also love this bit of advice I once got from a therapist:
“Don’t intellectualize so much. Use your feelings as a gauge instead. If someone is making you feel bad, that’s all the information you need.”
When all is said and done, it’s as simple as that, really.
Good piece of advice Kerry. I’ll remember that one!
ps
Hey, just thinking about him makes me feel bad!
Fearless,
It’s been nearly a year and I can’t even say his name out loud, it makes me feel so bad. I still dread running into him. I can’t wait till these feelings go from bad to indifferent. There’s such power in indifference!
Just starting this journey, i do the above big time, i broke it off with EUM recently b4 it got off the groUND, i keep seeing him about and he is in a huff and now thinks he’s in love with me lol, joke joke…..but i have this urge to tell him what he is so i can validate myself because i know he thinks i messed him around because id back off after verbal TEXT abuse, him disappearing, sleeping wi ex instead of meeting me, blowing hot and cold so its all my fault according to him, the insanity is why do i care??? its CRAAAAAZY!!! i have not contacted him and neva will. I know where this comes from directly from my relationship with my father, he is distant, abandoned me, in deny about abuse situation, he literally will say that neva happened straight after something like an argument, so i would try to validate it because id think i was going insane, all my family do it, the last of the great pretenders, same pattern with AC. I stopped this thing with this new AC because of habitual EUm SINCE the beginning of time(well my life), i was neva taught i was loveable, worthy and that i was below all people, have/had no boundaries. What im struggling with is now when a boundarary is crossed, which is with all people who will do this, it stems to all parts my life, i know it afterwards and then hate myself 4 not standing upto them, BUT this is early days 4 me so i suppose i should go easy on myself, i will do this, i will do anything to change me, i want and deserve a normal loving life, i have to give myself the best chance at life and i believe i did not cum across this book by accident i was open to try anything, i believe that we ALL can change, i believe after all the love i haven’t received from mum dad and in turn all AC, i can sPend the rest of my life receiving love from GOOD people, i dont need to worry why thE others r like they r,they can change if they want to and i will NOT b around to see it, THANK GOD!!!! phew……. needed to get that out 🙂
I not only investigated, but did so with the help of a therapist.
She’s the one who first threw out the word sociopath. Cognitive dissonance nearly destroyed me. Mr Wonderful, who hid behind a mask of sanity for 16 months, was in actuality a pathological liar, a user, and in the end, an abuser. He lied and hid everything from me until it couldn’t be hidden anymore. When his house of cards began to fall and I began questioning things that didn’t make sense anymore, he physically assaulted me. Then he began a smear campaign to destroy my reputation in the community. Then he tried repeatedly to get me to come back and did a little bit of stalking when I wouldn’t fall in line. He tried to separate me from my family and friends by telling them I said awful things about them. If I was isolated I would be weakened. He told my eldest brother that I was abusive and that if anything ever happened to me it was all my fault. When all else failed he pretended to have pancreatic cancer so that I would feel sorry for him and come back.
For that entire 16 months he hid the most insane stuff you could possibly imagine. Oh, there were the typical other women (his hidden mini-harem), but he was also doing things like killing small animals for $hits and giggles. When I wasn’t around he involved in transporting drugs from another state. He used his business to scam people out of money. To me he presented the facade of a serious businessman, except the truth was that he had taken on the persona of one of his rivals because the real man wouldn’t have ever been acceptable to me.
If I hadn’t done the investigating I couldn’t have put it it all away so quickly. It wasn’t about making me right and him wrong, it was about finding the truth so that I could get away.
Knowledge is power and sometimes you need to know what you’re dealing with. I would never say ‘my ex is a psychopath’ because people would think I was a drama queen. I mean lots of people say their ex is a psychopath. But mine is. It’s helpful for me to read as much as I can about the condition in case I am ever drawn in again. He is so charming and I miss the easy conversation sometimes. Like today. A girl gets tired of small talk, and longs for something more intimate. And they are master manipulators.
I investigate not to exonerate anyone but so that I can take better care of myself in future.
Well, now I have an explanation as to why I ‘ve always been compelled to become “mad Scientist” and research the guy and what went wrong after a break up . This is very eye opening and very helpful.
Yoghurt
You’ve hit the nail on the head. When ‘analysis paralysis’ is used as a means of distraction to justify remaining in an unhealthy r.shit, it’s a problem. Once we’re out though, or perhaps on the way out eveb, investigating how & why we got ourselves involved in such a situation in the first place, didn’t opt out sooner, or whatever the case may be, is a healthy thing to do.
T 🙂
DawnG
My xAC was slightly different (i.e didn’t toture animals) but was on par re some of the other behaviours you mention. An out & out liar, cheat, thief, drug user – you name it! And ALLA of it DELIBERATELY hidden from me because he KNEW I’d consider such things totally unacceptable! And guess what? After learning the TRUTH through a little ‘investigating’ of my own, damned straight I DID! FLUSH!
Just wanted you to know yr not the only one. Please protect yrself. These disgusting cretins are DANGEROUS.
T (((hugs)))
Hi teachable,
Yes, the ex is a very dangerous man. I had the ultimate “Molly, you’re in danger girl” moment . If I hadn’t done the homework he would have continued playing this game with me indefinitely. He would have kept insisting that other people were lying to me, not him. I might have believed that I was the one acting crazy for not trusting him.
So I dragged myself of my knees and went to this fabulous therapist, and she threw out that “sociopath” word. It obviously wasn’t a diagnosis, just a suspicion on her part from what I had described to her. The label didn’t really matter all that much but it helped to explain what had defied explanation. Yes, part of the explanation included what motivates a person like this – greed, envy, misogyny, the pure pleasure of deceiving people with the secondary pleasure of obtaining something they want. We read the diagnostic manual together, talked for a few weeks about the disorder, then went to work on me. It didn’t take a year to investigate the situation, but it has taken a nearly a year so far to recover.
That isn’t to say there weren’t things I missed or disregarded. I knew he embellished stories he told me – I just never considered for a minute that someone who tells little white lies in order to make an anecdote more interesting would also tell BIG lies. If I had spent more time with him in places other than our homes I’m certain that some of the lies would have come to light sooner. I’m too altruistic, too trusting, and now I know I have to actually verify some of the things people (men) tell me before I even consider jumping in with both feet. Above all, I learned that there are really bad people in this world who have absolutely no redeeming qualities, and that they have no place in MY life.
Flush!
Dawn
what a dreadful experience with a dreadful human being. He killed small animals for kicks? Oh my God. Anyone who does this sort of thing is deranged. I wonder how on earth this info would have come to light, but anyway glad it did… and glad for you that you are now safe from this evil f*ckwit.
Dawn G.
Okay, killing small animals is a sign of significant issues. Let’s all agree on that issue, right? You need to run a million miles away from this dude. Dawn, you are in total danger girl. I went through a similar situation with a guy who wined and dined me. The day I moved in with him, with my 11 year old daughter, he called me a f**king lunatic. There were NO SIGNS prior to that moment. Swear to god. It was if this monster suddenly reared his ugly head. It took another 60 days and I left him. I was so gas lighted. I couldn’t tell if the dryer was working. He said it was. But the clothes weren’t dry. That was a fact. He said I didn’t have any friends because I was a lunatic. I went to school the next day asking if I was a lunatic and if I had any friends. One of my colleagues hooked me up with a therapist. There are AC/EUM’s and then there are this other kind that kills small animals.
Here’s the thing,
It has been three years since my recovery from emotionally unavailable mates and people. I analyzed and diagnosed my former and took 100% responsibility for my part. I finally ” learned my reoccuring lesson” on it’s deepest level. And I will never have to learn it again. EVER!!!!!!!
I now say who was I when I attracted this sort of mess in my life? Well if it wasn’t for Natalie and Baggage Reclaim I shiver to think I would still be “stuck” in that ungodly loop of dysfunction.
I learned I had a “flawed” way of thinking. My belief system was askewed and I picked the next wrong person to get over the next wrong person.
I am not seeing anyone right now, however I know I will. It doesn’t even matter when. I can say this. If I were to die tonight at least I died knowing who I was, my worth, and I am at peace. “Free at last, free at last Great God Almighty free at last” martin luther king
Hi DawnG,
Was your therapist able to help you identify how and why you got together with this guy in the first place? I don’t have a therapist but this is one question I’d love answered. Part of the reason, I think, is being brought up to regard people as essentially good. I have to renew the investigations whenever I start to slide into denial or to forget.
Thalia,
Yes, my therapist helped me identify how and why we got together and how this kept going for as long as it did. I don’t think there’s an easy one-size-fits-all answer for how it happens except that they see something they want, assess a person for what they perceive are vulnerabilities, and then exploit those vulnerabilities for their own benefit. I think it’s nearly universal that the targets of people like this who go to therapy trace their issues back to the family of origin.
As you mentioned in your post, I was taught from childhood that there is good in everyone. I learned that I must forgive and forget, and if I can’t do that then just ignore it like it never happened. I learned to give until it hurts but never take anything for myself. I accepted everything at face value. I had no understanding that there are people in this world who consciously hurt other people. I had no street smarts at all.
Thanks for your reply DawnG. Yup, it all sounds familiar.. giving until it hurts but not taking. I’m reading a book at the moment, which – despite its cheesy title: Become the Most Important Person in the Room – is helpful. All about putting yourself first, not easy when empathy rules.
I’m in a rut at the moment, bored, lonely, not awash with cash to divert myself. The ex constanly sending invites to lure me back. Missing the companionship. In NC trying to stay strong. Do they eventually give up and go away? Or do they plug away indefinitely hoping to catch you at a weak moment? Like live prey…
Good for you DawnG! Flush indeed! I too didn’t take too long to learn the truth, although it did take abt 18 mths of being off & on w the xAC to learn ALL of it (w numerous intermittant periods of NC spanning some mths, initiated by me, during that time). I was also too trusting. In my case, things were easily hidden as he lived interstate. If we’d been in same city I doubt he’d have been able to keep up the charade longer than a few wks. I’m not the type to ignore amber flags & when I spot them I first address them openly (which I did with him). If not satisfied, & their lips are saying one thing, whilst their feet seem to be doing another, I then start digging for the truth. I’m just glad we both learned it as that way our doors can be slammed forever shut to these bloody pricks! No love lost on my end here. I look at the destruction wrought upon my life & loathe my xAC. And I’m perfectly fine w tht! Well done to u! Now we r free!!! x
lol @ head in the clouds ‘mad scientist’. too funny!
Thalia,
They give up…eventually (unless yr dealing w a stalker who may need legal repercussions if attempts at contact constitute harrassment or are threatening, in which case, you may need to disappear literally – as in move house & make sure yr address is not on the electoral role & that yr have an unlisted number). Stay strong. You never have to go through this pain again, if you so choose! Hugs. T x
I really needed to read this one today. Been on the site for many months but this is my first post.
This past weekend, I was dumped by someone I had been seeing for a month. This was after I spent his birthday with him and made breakfast, paid for dinner etc. After I saw him looking into the dating website- just after we had had sex . Yup. I was IN the room. Felt THISSSSS small. It came as a massive shock because he was always sweet and nice, lots of text, holding hands, catch ups etc. When I got home from him place and called to have a chat about his “late night surfing”, I got told that he hasnt been dating anyone else (he almost did after our first day but I told him it was disrespectful to me and if he wants to date others, I am out) and that the girl on there was just a friend he had dated ages ago…Followed by “Im not very good at this” and “we are too different” , “I dont feel the passion” (umm sure, after ALL that sex in the past 12 hours?) and “I cant see myself being married to you”.
Why anyone was thinking about marriage and ‘forever’ after 4 weeks is beyond me! And “we are different”…well, how much do we really know about each other in a month? What happened to giving a chance, a good honest try….?
Needless to say, I was shocked (so very very) and felt hurt. I tried to ask him if he wanted to work on it (given that we had great chemistry and enjoyed each others’ company) but no. Therefore conveniently got into “why did he do this? did I do something wrong? did I push him away?”
Took me a few days of self-love and lots of talking to realise that he is an a-hole and didnt have the guts to be honest . I wish I could figure out why he was nice to me, why it felt like he cared and how was he able to just “disconnect and breakup” just hours later?
I know I have dodged a bullet and I will be ok…but it still hurts and the questions dont seem to stop.
Your thoughts/words of wisdom?