If you’re someone that regards yourself as feeling or being ‘insecure’ in general, which is having a lack of confidence plus the anxiety and uncertainty surrounding it, you’ll find it difficult to know where you and others begin and end. It then puts you in a bit of a quagmire when you experience problems or a breakup, causing you to ruminate on “Is it me or is it them?” It then becomes you being insecure about being insecure in your relationships, which will have you going round in circles.
I’ve felt insecure in all of my relationships, even in the early days with the boyf. The difference between this relationship and all of my previous, is that there was no external evidence to support my insecurity – my lack of confidence was about me and my beliefs, my uncertainty was about me in the context of the relationship and being afraid to believe I wasn’t going to drop the ball, and my anxiety was my own Dynasty level drama going on in my head.
This is something you have to remind yourself of – you can be insecure and be with someone who is behaving in ways that will actually make even the most confident of people struggle to have confidence in the relationship.
All too often I come across people who have a list of things that tick the unhealthy boxes that would rightfully remove anyone’s confidence from the relationship and yet when they want to find reasons to blame themselves and stall the process of letting go, they get it into their head that being insecure and being with someone that may be behaving like a jackass are mutually exclusive.
Whatever insecurities you have, they don’t turn an otherwise decent person with character and integrity into someone that at best takes advantage of you and at worst, abuses you.
I’m not saying that insecurity doesn’t affect relationships but if you put together a list of what has happened in your relationship and you have stuff that’s code amber and red territory, you being insecure is the least of your concerns.
If you meet someone who is actually behaving in ways that are conducive to a healthy relationship but you’re insecure anyway, you’ll still battle with the lack of self-confidence, the uncertainty and the anxiety and gradually, if you don’t get a handle on yourself, it will erode the relationship.
Your lack of confidence will be bolstered for a period of time by the other party’s confidence, and if it continues, the relationship will become imbalanced. If you won’t be secure in spite of external evidence to contradict your lack of confidence etc, you have to ask yourself why they should keep trying to ‘convince’ you? You might think it will show how much they love you if they’ll spend their time constantly reassuring and proving themselves and the relationship to you, but what are you bringing to the table? You’re not showing confidence in them and the relationship so who is reassuring and convincing them?
Many people are under the misguided impression that in the ‘right’ relationship your insecurities will ‘vanish’ just like these same people might believe that their commitment-resistance, addictions, persistent problems and hurt from a previous relationship/experience will disappear, as if ‘love’ fixes everything. Then when all of these things still exist, it actually only adds to the insecurity.
It’s not unnatural to be insecure about certain things but it is unhealthy to be generally insecure or to enter into relationships lacking a good level of personal security as it actually becomes an invitation for someone who reflects your insecurities.
Personal security means knowing who you are, having a reasonable level of self-esteem (boundaries, treating yourself with love, care, trust, and respect), and being a whole person instead of someone with a person shaped void to fill. You don’t inflate people’s value and carry on like they’re that special, and you’re not desperate.
In my last post I talked about when you can’t figure out what’s bothering you because you’ve normalised treading water in stress. By the same token, you need to be careful of treading water in insecurity. While some people get off on it and call it ‘passion’, ‘chemistry’, and ‘fireworks’ and ‘once in a lifetime love’, for most of us, insecurity will have a detrimental effect on our sense of self, particularly because if it remains unaddressed, it does become difficult to distinguish between your insecurity and Other People’s Behaviour.
Your first port of call when you do feel insecure is to ask yourself if your concerns are valid. This helps you to identify the source.
You are right to feel insecure when someone has promised to change umpteen times and then come back claiming that they’ve changed again. If you don’t genuinely feel, see and experience that change, your insecurity is telling you to stop flogging the chance donkey.
You’re right to feel insecure after you’ve been back and forth waiting for your married lover to ‘choose’ you and leave their partner. You’re even more right to feel insecure if they say that they’re getting divorced as a way to get back into your life and then shazam!, nothing. You then feel like you’re being distrusting by chasing them up and are afraid to say anything for fear that they’ll say “Right! Well you obviously don’t trust me, so I’ll just stay with them!” Someone who is leaving will leave. If they could change their mind over you rightfully querying what the frick is going on, they were never leaving anyway. If you tell me you’re getting divorced and then say nothing, I’m not being impatient asking you what the hell is going on – it is my right.
If you feel insecure due to previous experiences this is natural, but these are issues that you should resolve before you take them into a new relationship and expect a partner to iron out your problems and play armchair psychologist. I’m not saying you can’t have your wobbles but whether it’s that you’re tormenting yourself or throwing all your fear at your partner, you will suck the life out this relationship faster than a publicity stunt marriage.
Offloading all of your fears and lack of confidence into a relationship is toxic.
It’s not that you shouldn’t discuss concerns with your partner (of course you should) but if your insecurity is internally driven, you would serve you, them, and your relationship well, by doing some work to support yourself. Write an Unsent Letter either to yourself or them and write out all of your concerns. Just vent them and then identify recurrent themes and look at specific ways to address them.
If there are insecurities being triggered by specific things in the relationship, this gives you a starting point for discussion – this is better than lumping all of the insecurities in and then overwhelming and drowning out concerns specifically pertaining to your current relationship.
Anything that’s a recurrent theme throughout all (or most) of your relationships is for you to address – you’re the common denominator. Whether that means talking to a professional, keeping a Feelings Diary, going a little bit slower – make sure that you’re addressing the insecurity rather than just letting it it eat away at you and the relationship.
What I do know is that if it’s internal and you have no real external concerns, you’ve just got to exhale, put both feet in and let it be. Equally I know that if there are real external concerns, don’t invalidate how you feel, because whatever you feel, it’s real in that you feel it which means you must address it. When you’re honest with yourself, you can differentiate between a personal wobble and…a wobbly relationship.
I used to do the going around in circles with this one too. It occurred to me that I didn’t enter into any relationship feeling massively insecure – it was something that grew progressively in response to various code reds/code ambers/code-what-the-hell-are-you-doing-with-this fool-s.
Obviously, I did have some serious self esteem issues going on, because I would have left the building if I didn’t, but I don’t recall meeting any of my exes and thinking, “Oooooh! I’m going to go into overdrive to hold onto this mofo.” It was more that I was concious that I had self esteem issues (though I didn’t realize how bad they were – obviously), did everything in my power to check myself and then….they’d start shifting the goalposts/treating me like I wasn’t good enough/hell, telling me I wasn’t good enough. That’s when I’d go into validation-seeking mode, which says loud and clear, “A, you have issues if you’re not leaving and B, this relationship is all wrong.”
When I realized all of this, I stopped taking responsibility for other people’s behavior. I take full responsibility for staying/doling out umpteen chances, but am I going to own how someone else chose to treat me? That’s a big, whopping hell to the no!
Namaste
on 15/11/2011 at 2:31 am
Oooooh! I’m going to go into overdrive to hold onto this mofo.” That’s hilarious Natasha. In other words it wasn’t premeditated. Holding on to a relationship ‘way past it’s due date’ as Natalie says. Thank goodness we’ve recognized our pattern and are learning what we need to do to step out of the dance. So much freedom in that.
Hi Namaste, I agree. We often fear letting go as if it will trap us when it will actually *free* us.
Natasha
on 15/11/2011 at 5:48 pm
Amen Namaste! It’s very empowering to realize that letting go of people who are no good for us makes space for all kinds of positive things – it’s like, “I’m inviting only good things into my life from now on. Assclowns, please leave the party!”
Namaste
on 16/11/2011 at 7:52 pm
YES Natasha, Assclowns are no longer welcome to our party.
Karina
on 15/11/2011 at 4:39 am
Natasha…we must have been twins in another life. I see so much of what you have gone through in me and my relationships. I’m slowly realizing how much I need to accept that my self esteem is not at an all time high. I have realized though that I need to accept what was and what is, an once I get there then things will certainly look and feel better.
I for one used to be the type that held others accountable for their behaviors, until my exes used to tell me that they behaved the way they did because of me. Because I wouldn’t put up with their BS and call tgem out on it. You won’t imagine what that even did to further my insecurites as the most horrible and toxic person to ever live and I blamed myself for all that happened in and out of the relationship. Now in therapy I am learning to be responsible for me alone and not an asinine douche bag who’s only claim is getting the chance to tap that ass! BR has def helped with that and hopefully I’m on the righ path to self-love, healthy relationships and serenity in my life.
Natasha
on 15/11/2011 at 5:55 pm
“I am learning to be responsible for me alone and not an asinine douche bag who’s only claim is getting the chance to tap that ass!”
Karina, My Sister In Assclown Removal, that just made me burst out laughing!! You are so right – they don’t have any claim on our happiness. If they want to blame us for their actions, they can knock themselves out, but we’re not hearing it. I was out with a friend this weekend and her jackass ex is incensed that she got on with her life and got engaged to someone great. He came up to our table and tried to start talking and she just put her hand up and said, “Keep it moving.” I wish I had surreptitiously snapped a picture of his face for us all to enjoy haha!
Tea Cozy
on 16/11/2011 at 4:53 am
‘He came up to our table and tried to start talking and she just put her hand up and said, “Keep it moving.” ‘
That is just 17 different shades of awesome. Beautiful. I’m so going to bust that move next time anyone gets in my face about anything.
Natasha
on 16/11/2011 at 4:53 pm
Isn’t it though?! 🙂 I was like, “I knew I loved you for a reason.” I will be implementing that move as well!
I agree Natasha. Generally, I would behave very self-assured at the start of my relationships, often because it was when I felt most in control. I’d believe I was good enough at the start (even if at a deeper level unknown to myself I didn’t) especially because they all pursued very heavily, often badgering me to be with them. Who wouldn’t feel assured? Until as you say, the goalposts started shifted and then I was like WTF? Even if I’d started to recognise they were a jackass, I’d then become insecure about whether I could keep them or whether my flaws would be found out. Yawn. I love your comments – you always make me laugh!
Natasha
on 15/11/2011 at 6:09 pm
Awwww thanks Nat! 🙂 Yawn indeed – I think if I ever accidentally encountered another dude like any of my exes, I’d be like, “Sweet saints above are you boring! Show me something out of a playbook all your predecessors didn’t read.” I’m pretty sure they’d just be standing there with their sad little goalpoasts in their hands bleating, “Well…well..you’re insecure! And…and…six years ago this girl dumped me (after I slept with several of her first cousins) and I was devastated! Also, I’m depressed, I need to find myself and I hate my job. That’s why I need to give the sex eye to other women when I’m out on a date with you!”
Jasmine
on 16/11/2011 at 6:51 am
Natasha,
I basically approached relationships the same way. I worked hard to keep my known self-esteem issues in check by playing it “cool” and not being” too needy”. So the AC/EUM got to test and push me with unhealthy disrespectful behavior, just a little, just enough that I would doubt myself.. and doubt my inner voice telling me I was unhappy. When the relationship was over, pre-BR, I thought: did he figure out I had self-esteem issues (probably on some level yes) and I brought the behavior out of him or DESERVE to be treated that way?! It was a dark place to be.
One of Nat’s previous posts made a huge impact on me… That enabling behavior doesn’t mean you caused it and that you could be the worlds biggest doormat and some people won’t bust your boundaries because it’s just not who they are.
I can see now that it was both of us. My inability to be open with myself and the ex about my self esteem issues actually made it easier for him to be dishonest and manipulative. Calling him on his sh*t would have shown him and myself I wasn’t as “cool” as I wanted to be. So I said very little. Now I know that it’s ok to evaluate a situation and believe your gut. And why would I want to be in a relationship with someone where I know if I’m honest about my fears my partner will use it against me later? That was how I used to be. Now, self-esteem issues or no, a red flag is a red flag.
Thanks for sharing!
Natasha
on 16/11/2011 at 4:59 pm
Jasmine, I loved your whole comment! So dead-on from start to finish. Learning that other people’s behavior wasn’t down to me to begin with was a huge turning point for me as well! It was like, “Waaaaaaaaait a minute. So, they would have done something equally douchey with someone else? I could have been the most perfect woman that ever did walk the earth and it still wouldn’t have mattered?” Game changer right there!
Leisha
on 15/11/2011 at 12:40 am
Spot on Natalie! Reviewing the relationships gives us insight…observing as we “go” through the relationships serves us…and a bit of insecurity doesn’t EVER cause the other party to mistreat us…as you’ve said (paraphrase) that is who THEY are…and our job is to face it and take ourselves…can take a long time…but better whenever than never! Personally I’ve still been reviewing…and the ole” suck it and see” teaches a lot…so…looking back on what I overlooked is essential as well as WHY I did so and the resulting MESS…well, it’s been educational and I know what is mine to own and you have taught me the rest of how to take care of me which enables me to form a true partnership that is co-piloted not horridly off-balanced and confusing…I’ve learned so much…Thank you again!
You’re very welcome Leisha! You are so spot on about it making it “horridly off-balanced and confusing”. Insecurity will have you not knowing your arse from your elbow!
Kay
on 15/11/2011 at 12:46 am
Thank you for this. I am beginning to date again….and still have insecurities from past relationships (major cases of “things not being as they seem” – the tour of EUMs and ACs) and I am working to slay this dragon so I don’t bring the fear and insecurity in my judgment to new situations. Rather than fear, I want to bring eyes that are wide open and observing, and with intuition radar fully engaged, and not immediately jet into dreamland as I did before. Of course, the other half of people not being what they seem is me not being tuned in to who they really were.
In the very beginning of dating there is no pattern of when someone will call, you don’t know how it will go, a million unknowns, and this is all normal…yet a little anxiety producing. Of course it’s unpredictable; it shouldn’t make me insecure. I need to let go, exhale, let it unfold with respect to the other person and to myself. The key may be to have no expectation.
I had briefly dated this fellow before – just went out 3x or so and had a blast with him. Nothing hot and heavy at that point. Imagine that my EUM ran total inference (even though we’d broken up a month before) and seriously wanted to get back together and he’d had a new revelation as to how wonderful I was. I told Guy 2 that I needed to take a break from dating and work some things out in my life. I got back with the EUM again, and he bailed again – surprise, surprise, shortly after I went back, and Guy 2 and I just let things lie. Long story short, we’ve crossed paths again, shared a few brief E mails about what happened before, and left it that we’d go out again – he said he understood. At least now I’d go out with him with a clean table – no other emotional pulls to mess with my head. Not sure if I’ve painted myself as sketchy due to the break I asked for before.
I think I’ll hit up some of your other dating articles, work on the unsent letter to self, etc., to further fortify myself.
Your points are very well taken that there are true causes to be insecure – often a radar that something is not right in a relationship or with someone’s behavior – and a general self-based insecurity like I’m feeling now, with no external cause.
Since finding Baggage Reclaim after the (first) demise of my EUM relationship and living in a mode of depressive WTF…..I am now well on my way to discerning a healthy relationship.
Hi Kay, I think it’s one of those awkward situations that highlight why I say to people to avoid starting something new in the first month or so after a breakup. Why? Because aside from you being highly likely to be in some sort of contact with the ex and ironing out any arrangements, one or both of you may start ‘negotiations’. Guy 2 may or may not understand – I think you’ll only know this by dating him. I don’t think you’re sketchy but I would ensure that you’re done with your ex *before* you go back out with anyone else. I say this because I’ve heard from quite a few readers who keep bailing for the same person. One woman has broken off THREE engagements (I mean there are women that are hankering for just ONE), to go back to a Future Faking ex. THREE. Eek!
I think you can safely get over the insecurity that you’re missing out with your ex and that he’s changed – he hasn’t. Don’t give him another chance to reject the relationship. You don’t want to be with someone who only gets up their relationship erection when you’re with someone else.
Kay
on 15/11/2011 at 1:46 pm
Ha, ha, brilliantly stated NML “Get up their relationship erection when you’re with someone else!” Isn’t that the truth. I’ve had this done before. Another friend calls it “cock blocking.”
Good thing is that now I’m totally done with the other guy I tried again with and who bailed again; done from the core of my heart; completed 5 months of NC. PLUS he moved across country. Before, I was too distracted and vulnerable with healing from Guy 1 who I still longed for a bit and also who fucked with my emotions, to be open to Guy 2. So interesting question, Guy 2 just showed up in my life, crossing paths at work….how do you deal with a situation where you meet someone and would like to date them but maybe aren’t ready yet?
It is interesting – now that I want to create a healthy relationship, putting on the brakes in advance is definitely more challenging than galloping off into a sunset of illusion – which has always gotten me into trouble.
JadeSesame
on 15/11/2011 at 1:00 am
My mother tried to talk to me on numerous occasions, as to why I should let go off the ex-EUM. One of the refrains was that “he won’t give you any security and that you would always be insecure”. I used to semi-cringe at that, as if seeking security from someone else (especially a man) was very damning to our sex, because I perceived myself as a self-sufficient, independent woman in this post-feminist era, having equated security with a kind of feminine dependency/neediness in a patriarchal set up. How ironic, that this repression (and arrogance) of “no I’m not insecure, I’m not like other women, I can settle for unconventional arrangements and I don’t need any emotional nourishment”, led me into a situation where I managed to settle for mere crumbs communication, believing I didn’t need anymore. That got me into a prolonged, highly unnecessary romantic entanglement.
Before I discovered Baggage Reclaim, I was on a junk diet of dating websites. One of the mantras that kept appearing again and again, was that Men love independent women who lead their on lives who don’t really make emotional demands (because they want a fun, relaxed time with a date), insecure women are a turn off. All that eclipsed my perspective of the situation- I could put a normal spin on something dysfunctional. Nothing changed for the better anyway, in spite of me playing this independent woman card (a coping strategy for having been honest, expressive, simply myself, with punitive outcomes). I will never be brainwashed by anyone again, who tries to deflect the problem by turning the tables and asking me, “why are you so insecure”. It’s liberating and healthy being ourselves, not to have our emotions congested in a gas chamber, literally gasping for air and wanting to be heard. A truly empathetic, understanding and mature partner would take the time to explore these issues (if the insecurities stemmed from within ourselves), not dismiss us.
Karina
on 15/11/2011 at 2:34 am
Jade…seems that as women we still have a long way to go in this mostly patriarchal society. Caving in to the nonsense men say regarding how they like and want a woman pretty much undermines any value we attribute to our natural feelings, even those of insecurity. We need to learn to trust ourselves more and know when we need to not only reevaluate our priorities, but also to do self examination once in a while as to what it is we need to change in order to become better women and overall better human beings. Like your comment.
Basically, we’ve got to stop making men the centre of the universe. We’re great and strong in our own right. Instead of reading into the bullshit or internalising it, we need to turn away from it and direct our energies and attentions to the people and things that matter. Not all men behave in these ways – trying to change these numpties turning over one rolling stone at a time is back breaking work. We need to stop trying to raise men from the ground up and treating them like their shit doesn’t stink and that they’re super special.
dawn
on 17/11/2011 at 2:41 am
You said it Natalie. I am taking notes!!! All the things you said made me feel that I AM strong, capable, and don’t need a man to be the center of my world. I wasn’t brought up that way but hey, never to late to learn. I am not going to get involved with “fixer uppers” anymore. It is back breaking work, screws with my self esteem (thinking if I can’t fix him or if he won’t change for me then that’s because I am not good enough). Learning about my warped thoughts and how to change them. Thanks for the assistance 🙂
runnergirl
on 15/11/2011 at 3:55 am
Natalie and JadeSesame,
I love the pic of the woman dipping her toes in the water. The pic, this post, and JadeSesame’s comments reminded me of my Ms. Independent Self-Sufficient (MISS) tendencies Natalie describes in Mr. U and the FBG. I was so god damn filled with self-confidence and so flipping independent, I believed I could dip my toes in the murkiest waters and dip back out when I pleased. Until I drowned. “You’re right to feel insecure after you’ve been back and forth waiting for your married lover to ‘choose’ you and leave their partner.” Of course. However as a MISS, I was hell bent on being self-sufficient and independent, and missed the red flags which should have meant take a parachute and jump. I know this is the opposite of what you are discussing here Natalie and I think I see the difference between sabatoging a healthy relationship with personal insecurities and not recognizing legitimate reasons to be insecure in an unhealthy relationship. I blamed myself for not being able to turn an unhealthy relationship into a healthy one. “Personal security means knowing who you are, having a reasonable level of self-esteem (boundaries, treating yourself with love, care, trust, and respect), and being a whole person instead of someone with a person shaped void to fill.” That is the issue for me, confusing self-confidence with self-esteem. They aren’t the same thing. My self-confidence coupled with zero self-esteem resulted in my failure to recognize when I should have felt insecure and bailed. As a MISS, I didn’t feel insecure even when by all objective facts, I should have. I hope I haven’t strayed off topic. I’m so looking forward to the MISS book. I need to temper my self-confidence with a lot more self-esteem and a dash of wisdom to know the difference.
Hi Runner. Self-confidence is a part of self-esteem because when you’re confident in who you are and your capabilities, and treat and regard yourself as someone who is valuable and worthwhile, your self-esteem will be good. However, being confident at situations that don’t tax you emotionally isn’t quite the same thing. There are many Miss Independent Miss Self-Sufficients who are genuinely confident in many areas of their lives…until you look closely at their relationships, how they feel about themselves, and what they even define as being confident and independent. What you then discover is that sometimes you are *very* independent and self-sufficient because by doing so, it keeps your insecurities about being vulnerable at a distance. As you showed, by overcompensating in these areas, you didn’t have a limit to what you would put up with because you were being ballsy and saying ‘I can handle it!’ A married guy *worked* because you could maintain that distance and independence. Underneath it all, you were stowing your insecurity. Of course you didn’t feel it – you’re used to having everything under control. It was only when it started to feel less like it was under your control and you started acknowledging that you weren’t made of stone and were actually a person with real needs, did the insecurities start creeping in. Of course once they did…he was on borrowed time. It’s like opening pandora’s box.
runnergirl
on 16/11/2011 at 4:16 am
Yes, yes, yes, Natalie. I’m so grateful for your response because you identified precisely what I’m struggling with, integrating self-confidence with self-esteem. I have situational self -confidence and situational self-esteem. It easier for me to have self-confidence and self- esteem in my professional relationships because those relationships are less risky emotionally. Professional relationships follow a prescribe pattern that I can learn and master. “What you then discover is that sometimes you are *very* independent and self-sufficient because by doing so, it keeps your insecurities about being vulnerable at a distance.” That’s how I’ve compensated for my emotional insecurities by prentending I was made of stone which was the only way I survived childhood. So this jackass is going to end up being my ephipany relationship and opening my Pandora’s Box of feelings and recognition (finally) of my inability to control the uncontrollable. Darn, this is hard to re-learn. But I’m ever so grateful. I’m skipping off to bed, happy that I’m not made of stone. I am vulnerable. I can have needs. Wow! My vulnerability and needs are not necessarily insecurities that doom a relationship, otherwise it wasn’t a relationship in the first place…is this right? You are the greatest Natalie and I agree with Magnolia, you are on fire lately. Love it. I’m digging deeper and deeper with every post.
Elle
on 15/11/2011 at 4:12 am
I tried to be more independent too, in my AC relationship. That just made him complain about feeling alone and that I didn’t care about him. You can’t win, when someone really doesn’t want intimacy.
Brilliant comment JadeSesame. In particular I loved “It’s liberating and healthy being ourselves, not to have our emotions congested in a gas chamber, literally gasping for air and wanting to be heard.”
In my six years of writing this site, I’ve learned that the people who can list of all of the reasons why they’re so independent and ‘secure’ tend to be the most *emotionally* insecure. We don’t need to be strong like bull and I don’t buy any of that BS that these guys put on dating websites because the fact is there is a massive difference between independence and autonomy and being emotionally disconnected so as to avoid responsibility of any kind. They want someone that doesn’t ask questions and if they do, they give themselves license to bail and be jackasses. I remember being asked by one of my last exes whether I was insecure because I wouldn’t let him talk me down and talk complete doo doo. I asked him why he was insecure that he had to make me out to be insecure instead of owning what he’d done. Well…that was the end of that conversation. He actually went into a high pitched squeak he was so angry and slammed down the phone.
Leisha
on 16/11/2011 at 12:11 am
You just made me LOL with that awesome visual…I love how you make me laugh…so many brilliant women on here…wow…once the good changes kick in there will be some amazing goings on!
grace
on 15/11/2011 at 1:23 pm
Jade
They don’t love independent women. That just translates as “I want a woman who will sex me up, not expect me to call her, allow me to see other women, doesn’t want to get married, doesn’t want me to commit, will let me do whatever I want, yet will remain faithful to me.”
I don’t see that as independence.
A truly indpendent woman – one who’ll walk if he disrespects her and won’t listen to his BS for one minute – would scare them half to death. (not all men half to death, just these numpty ones)
JadeSesame
on 15/11/2011 at 10:37 pm
MISS (closet EUWs) is such a cool acronym.
@runnergirl, really identify with you there. I thought that self-confidence (i.e being socially adept, being aware of one’s skills and abilities) was more or less the same as having good self-esteem. I told myself that if the ex-EUM couldn’t delve into deep, meaningful conversations, that was perfectly OK! I could rely on the goodwill and support of my trusty friends, I didn’t need him, besides “one cannot expect your partner to provide everything you need”. What an absurd spin-doctor I was, creating stories to justify why I should stay in the situation. I felt insecure about being insecure. Played every card I could think of– the independent woman (but responding right away when he said he was lonely, being the attention whore he was), the dutiful woman who’d cook/clean/make love (but not just a boring stereotype), the flirtatious coquette who offered lively, entertaining banter, (but not to the extent of upstaging/overshadowing his intelligence). Everything failed. It was so stressful not being able to be myself, trying to contort, twist, conform to his idea of what I thought he wanted in a partner.
@grace, women who are truly independent and have their self-esteem intact would show the EUM the door. The EUM’s idea of liking “independent” women, is really a code for saying that he will invest minimal, or even zero effort into cultivating a relationship. (an oxymoron, which really means that a relationship is impossible).
@NML,
“They want someone that doesn’t ask questions and if they do, they give themselves license to bail and be jackasses”.
This is sickeningly true. They have this ability to turn tables around and make you look like the aggressive, hysterical, overreacting one. My ex-EUM was a self-aware, unapologetic, unfeeling Narcissist. The deal I got was, “you know what I am about, I’m not about to change and if you want to be with me, then don’t complain or ask for more”. I once actually tried to point out (very gently) to him why his behavior was misleading and why flaking out was hurtful, that my mother said he was “experienced with women”– he actually yawned and told me to keep talking, that my voice was quite soothing and he could fall asleep to it. Unlike your ex-EUM, I never got any demonstration of anger/violence. I feel a lot of belated anger.
cavewoman
on 15/11/2011 at 10:59 pm
grace, another one is ‘down to earth’. That’s why I never even went out on a single date with the guy who asked me out because I “seem down to earth”. I could tell he figured I wouldn’t have high expectations. (He was right! I expected nothing good to come out of that.)
dawn
on 17/11/2011 at 3:12 am
“They don’t love independent women. That just translates as “I want a woman who will sex me up, not expect me to call her, allow me to see other women, doesn’t want to get married, doesn’t want me to commit, will let me do whatever I want, yet will remain faithful to me.””.
Exactly true. Oh and don’t forget, will pay her own way, and I don’t have to pay her for sex, or worry about getting a std. I once asked a guy I knew after seeing him trample the heart of a dear friend of mine why if he if he didn’t want a real relationship with a woman, and just wanted no strings attached sex thing (which was what he told her AFTER they had sex by just treating her like a booty call and played her around for months with all his lies) why he just didn’t get a prostitute and he said,” those girls aren’t very affectionate and I don’t like to have sex with condoms and I don’t want to have to worry about getting an std.” He said it without batting an eye. Talk about emotionally unavailable, or assclown. How on earth do some men get like this??? Scary.
What do you do when you are dating an insecure man. It can be alot of work to give, give and give to someone who feels that they’re not good enough for you. In effect by not giving in return they actually make you feel like you’re not special or worth it. If looks and past relationships are part of this man’s insecurities are you better off just finding someone else, or is it worth talking it over. If your kindness and giving and understanding is actually making him feel insecure it must mean that you’re probably not compatible, a normal person would just be grateful right?
ixnay
on 15/11/2011 at 12:41 pm
Hey, Miss Solomon,
I’ve been thinking about this from the other direction. I think it’s two sides of the same coin. The overtly needy, insecure guy who professes to be not good enough for you … but you end up feeling you’re not good enough for *him* — not good enough to reassure him, love him right. It’s a kind of withholding, a kind of unavailability. Then there’s the ostensibly self-confident guy, who with little comments and a sort of “show me” holding back lets you know you’re not good enough to win him over — but keep trying, you might be, he’ll be the judge of that.
I’ve been wondering if the latter kind of guy isn’t also deeply insecure. He, too, is looking to be loved out of his defenses, understood and forgiven when he’s a dick, and, unconsciously, also wants his partner to stand up to hm and not let him get away with treating her badly. He can’t face his own emotional needs and the reality of the games he’s playing, so it’s all her fault, she’s falling short and he’ll tell her why. He thus displaces his insecurity onto her. And then she’s “not the woman I fell in love with”; “I thought you were different.” I even had a guy I loved deeply say to me in an aggrieved, victimized way, after he’d pulled the rug from under me sufficiently that I was pretty much a basket case, “Why do I always end up with such weak women!?”
Not to get all Freudian, but both patterns strike me as infantile. One infant-man is crying and whining and a bottomless pit of need. Girlfriend-mommy isn’t good enough to console him, wah wah wah. The other infant-man is having a tantrum and sulking. Girlfriend-mommy isn’t any fun! She can’t roll with the punches and why doesn’t she dress sexier! wah wah wah.
Miss Solomon, this sounds like a rather complicated little situation you have going on here. I’m all for giving someone a boost, but there’s the odd pep talk and reassurance and then there’s allowing someone to stand on your back so you can make them feel taller. It will soon start to hurt. What can you talk over with him? You’re trying to fix and reassure problems you didn’t create. If you sit him down and ask him to tell you why he’s insecure about *this* relationship, what you’ll get back is what he believes is going to happen, not because you’ve done any of these things but because it’s his beliefs. You can tell him until the cows come home – he doesn’t believe it. You are damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Stay and you will emotionally bankrupt yourself, greatly imbalance the relationship AND still not convince him and leave, and he still won’t be convinced and you’ll just be another story. What this tells you is that he’s going to do the same no matter what you do so you need to opt out. It’s not about someone being good or bad – this man is not emotionally ready for a healthy, mutually fulfilling relationship and you are Florencing. If you’re being good to him and it’s increasing his insecurity, he is showing you that he is not able to receive love. You have needs too. It’s not a contest but you have needs too. You don’t need payback but what you do need is to be with a mutual partner – he is not it.
Thanks Natalie you are absolutely right. Your advice is phenomenal but I can see why its so hard to take because it requires action it doesn’t just make you feel good. In fact it almost makes you feel bad because you know the truth, which is typically the opposite of what we would like to believe. He almost certainly isn’t ready to appreciate the kind of love that I’m offering. I constantly have to remind myself that it doesn’t make me any less special or wonderful a person because he doesn’t appreciate me. So sad. Thanks for your incredible insight. Best,
Michelle
on 15/11/2011 at 1:38 am
This is really good advice! I love this article! I have dated some jerks and should have believed in myself enough to walk away and have faith that I would find someone good. Who cares how “cute” they were. Being with them made me feel terrible about myself and constantly insecure. I can’t say it was all their fault–I was already insecure (and felt comfortable because, at least with the immature jerks I knew what to expect). But being around jerks who had absolutely no appreciation for me surely didn’t help matters and just kept me stuck in the low-self-esteem web. I’m discovering that I am *allowed* to have boundaries with others, and it feels so empowering! It feels so good to meet a guy and when he makes a rude comment or acts shady, to just tell them to jump off a cliff, rather than making excuses for them or wondering what *I* said or did. What the eff used to be wrong with me?? It was all them, and all I needed to say was, “Goodbye, boring jerk!” Self esteem…what a concept! Should have tried this in my 20s!
Amen Michelle, amen! It’s not about you – you are about you! How freeing!
Foxy Cleopatra
on 15/11/2011 at 2:20 am
Its not unusual to question your station in life, especially after a break up. I put so much stock in what someone else thinks or my own perceived personal failures sometimes. After circling that mountain many times i have realized that my mind can be too quick to turn on and dump on itself… then comes the insecurity. Then when i realize that, i try to capture that thought and be my own drill Sargent. “Enough of that mamby pamby wuss talk, Soldierrrr! You are still fabulous not to mention one badass chick!! Now GO, DO and BE more fabulous!”..
Foxy, this comment was hilarious and made me laugh out loud, loudly. You sure do kick some ass!
Magnolia
on 15/11/2011 at 3:16 am
These posts have helped me tell the difference between being insecure as in a character trait, ie. what people mean when they snipe, “she’s so insecure,” and being insecure in a relationship, meaning not feeling sure about the stability of your union.
I was a way hotter, messier mess ten years ago, that is, I was way more insecure as a person, but I still attracted relationships with male Florences in which I felt solid as a rock about their commitment, and the potential for the relationship to go long term.
I think of this fact when I read Natalie saying that just because you’re insecure doesn’t mean your guy is not (or is) an asshole. I have been insecure with decent guys, and I have been insecure with assclowns. In the first, your boyfriend will say, “Sweetheart, I wish you loved yourself as much I as love you.” In the second, your bf will say, “You are insecure and that is why you overreact when I turn my phone off when I go out with other women.” (Of course, if your bf is a total N mindfucker, he will say both.)
Now that I am gaining more trust in myself, and am more secure in my decisions and in who I am, the options for bfs are: 1 – secure Magnolia with EUM/AC or 2 – secure Magnolia with a decent guy. If I end up in #1, it wouldn’t be for long, because if I’m secure there is no way I’d LET it last. I’m beginning to define security for me as my trust that I can say no to things I don’t want, and make those judgment calls in a timely way.
It felt good, in this last dating attempt, to realize that I had a habit of thinking, oh, it’s me, I’m not confident, I don’t know what I want. I mistakenly verbalized a bit of that to the guy who wanted to see me again, but quickly pulled myself together (within minutes) and said, “I’ll be in touch” and then within a day, had made a decision that I didn’t want to go forward and communicated that.
“Offloading all of your fears and lack of confidence into a relationship is toxic.” Amen. I have been panicked and controlling, irrespective of whether I had drawn a ‘nice’ Florence or a platinum grade AC. I can now tolerate a little bit of ambiguity, and I don’t need to have 100% information – which is impossible anyway – before making a decision about what’s good for me. I’m not that woman anymore!
You’re on fire with your comments Magnolia! “I have been insecure with decent guys, and I have been insecure with assclowns. In the first, your boyfriend will say, “Sweetheart, I wish you loved yourself as much I as love you.” In the second, your bf will say, “You are insecure and that is why you overreact when I turn my phone off when I go out with other women.” (Of course, if your bf is a total N mindfucker, he will say both.)” Spot on!
“I’m beginning to define security for me as my trust that I can say no to things I don’t want, and make those judgment calls in a timely way.” You are most certainly in charge of the Club Magnolia. You don’t have to be or do anything that you don’t want to. You have choices and you’re allowed to make your club exclusive and turn away those that show up shady, or bounce those that don’t play by the rules. Don’t apologise for it – own it.
Mika
on 15/11/2011 at 4:06 am
Thanks for writing this, Natalie
Insecurity in relationships is one of the most common problems I think a lot of women deal with. Insecurity leads to jealousy & a lot of questioning your partner’s love for you (which puts a strain on the relationship already).
Like countless other women, I have insecurity issues. But my issues are caused by INTERNAL beliefs about myself. The best way to defeat insecurities is change your beliefs. With hard work, negative beliefs *can* be changed. When you feel insecure (due to negative beliefs) you essentially feel as if you’re “not good enough.”
How you feel about yourself, the world and people makes up your reality. Change your beliefs by changing your focus. Your focus creates thoughts, your thoughts create your EMOTIONS and your emotions creates how you behave and react to your external world. Begin changing your insecurity with an abundance of self-love. You can banish insecurity when you begin to stop relying on HIM (or her) to make you feel WORTHY of love and everything else you want for yourself.
“You can banish insecurity when you begin to stop relying on HIM (or her) to make you feel WORTHY of love and everything else you want for yourself.” Spot on Mika. We have to make ourselves secure. As women, we have habitually waited around for everything and everyone else to make us feel worthy and secure. This makes life very insecure. When you make yourself worthy and secure, it cannot be stripped away from you at the whim of a person or product.
Elle
on 15/11/2011 at 4:09 am
The fact is, it’s easy to make all but the most evolved (and isolated or abstaining) feel insecure in response to persistent hot-cold, super critical or avoidant behaviour. I too fall for it, the old trick of questioning myself: Maybe my consistency is actually coming across as pressure? Maybe my desire to be admired or praised by my man is a sign of intense and unfair approval-seeking? Maybe when I explain how I feel about things, I am coming across as too judgemental? The truth is, we know what’s up. We know that when our insecurity sirens are sounding, it’s almost certainly not a good sign, and probably time to exit (after Nat’s external v internal check). A lot of this doesn’t require any blaming or shaming of yourself or the other. Some people, because of their own stuff, bring out, or amp up, our insecurities and, usually, we do the same to them. ACs excepted, of course (they make everyone they meet turn nutty).
Like you Natasha, I went into last relationship, pretty open and certainly feeling more solid than I had in a long time. But I still felt hugely stressed and insecure when he started withholding, bottling and then spewing at me, and scaling back the relationship to certain times that suited him. That felt pretty terrible, despite my recent (and ongoing) form!
“Maybe my consistency is actually coming across as pressure?” It’s not that consistency is pressure but by the same token, consistency and an unavailable person don’t mix so it does inadvertently become pressure.
“Maybe my desire to be admired or praised by my man is a sign of intense and unfair approval-seeking?” I don’t know about intense and unfair but it is seeking validation and probably has more to do with a lack of validation from a male figure such as your father than it does about them. I used to seek approval from everyone because I didn’t in particular get it from my mother. When I stopped looking for or needing her approval (one day I got it and the heavens didn’t open and it was a bit of an anti climax…), my need for approval diminished greatly.
“Maybe when I explain how I feel about things, I am coming across as too judgemental?” Why because you explained how you feel? Unless how you feel becomes a statement of direct judgement on someone, it’s just how you feel. Yes there are ways that we can explain things that don’t place it all on the other person but if we start to view concerns in our relationships as judgements, we might as well quit now.
“A lot of this doesn’t require any blaming or shaming of yourself or the other.” 100% agree. ACs excepted, I think if there is insecurity, blaming or shaming the other person or yourself is a misappropriation of energy that exacerbates the problem.
Elle
on 15/11/2011 at 10:45 pm
Thanks for the reply, Natalie. I agree – what you come to represent IS pressure, an unfair request for validation*, and judgement…when….and this is important… you are with an emotionally unavailable control-freak.
My point was that you forget that part, the part that says that you might intend you behaviour to mean one thing, but it will come across as something almost entirely different if the other person does not really want you or a relationship in their lives. But what I do sometimes is focus on the result, the fear and knowledge that I am apparently causing uneasiness in someone’s life, and try then to modify my behaviour. When, in fact, I am missing the part that means that my behaviour – all of it – is being received/interpreted in a pretty warped way, thereby changing my natural behaviour, which then makes me frustrated and less warm. When you focus on the issue of whether you’re creating a situation for them (ie the meaning of your behaviour FOR THEM), you end up completely overlooking their role in their perceptions, and become stuck in a game. It’s time-wasting and can be soul-destroying. Also, sometimes it doesn’t have to be quite so deep and meaningful, sometimes you just have to say that someone didn’t see you as right for them, for whatever reason, which makes them automatically wholly unsuitable for you. I am glad to say that I actually don’t too much mind about that these days.
*As for the approval-seeking, this is something that I need to work on, and, as I do more of the things I love, this becomes far less necessary. However, I am not as good at going for days, then weeks, on end in a relationship without sweet things being said to me. I find I shadow this, and become pretty tough and ‘all business’ (analytical) in the way I talk if there isn’t some consistent tenderness and praise (am talking about small, day-to-day praise, little doggy-biscuits, not an award-ceremony). Anyway, I do know that the release of that need, in a real way, is attached to the likelihood of receiving it (and believing it). So I will push on with that one (outside a relationship)! xx
jennynic
on 16/11/2011 at 5:43 pm
Elle,
“But what I do sometimes is focus on the result, the fear and knowledge that I am apparently causing uneasiness in someone’s life, and try then to modify my behaviour. When, in fact, I am missing the part that means that my behaviour – all of it – is being received/interpreted in a pretty warped way, thereby changing my natural behaviour, which then makes me frustrated and less warm.”
Yes. Yes. Yes. I have recently been seeing this in myself. Although it isn’t new behavior, I am only now becoming aware of it. I had a conversation with someone last night about my tendency to be too nice and overly concerned about hurting someone’s feelings by telling them they are crossing the line or making me uncomfortable. Instead of just being honest and unapologetic about what isn’t okay with me, I tip toe around it and feel unauthentic so I don’t offend them. I realize that I have fear of confrontation or retaliation for expressing myself or standing up for myself. I feel like I have been punished in the past for being assertive about my needs or about my boundaries. In reality, the people who kicked me harder in the teeth for standing up to them were unhealthy and had no empathy. If things were not on their terms, then any issues were quickly turned around as my fault or as my insecurities. A person who behaves this way isn’t capable or having a healthy relationship or just plain doesn’t want one. I was slightly offended when the person I was talking to said I invited disrespect by not being judgmental enough and too open, and asked me what need in me was being fulfilled by being too lenient and not blunt enough. I realize today that he was on to something. Finding the balance of being open to people but protective of myself is proving to be a challenge. I too have modified by behavior when someone doesn’t like how I feel.
EllyB
on 16/11/2011 at 2:57 pm
@NML: You are so right. In my early twenties, I started hanging out with a bunch of fairly health people, which was quite news to me, because I hadn’t met many healthy people before.
It was amazing how my “insecurities” suddenly didn’t matter anymore. Those people acted as if they didn’t even notice them! They treated me like a great, charming, skilled person, and that’s what I became whenever I was with them.
Only occasionally they grew impatient with me – and that was whenever I tried to mention my “issues” and to apologize for being such a crappy, messed up, difficult person… They said something like “what?” “I don’t know what you’re talking about” or “does it matter? I don’t think so” and quickly changed the topic.
Back then that made me slightly nervous. I thought: Shouldn’t I be angry with them? Do they care about me at all? How can I ever find out what I always do “wrong”, why I “forced” my mother to abuse me so horribly as a child? How will I ever be able to “change” if they claim I am ok just the way I am???
Now I guess that’s what healthy people do.
grace
on 16/11/2011 at 8:41 pm
Elly
I think they probably just found it awkward or didn’t know what to say. Also, it’s quite taboo to complain about one’s mother. I’ve told a SELECT few about mine – to one friend whose mother kicked her out when she got pregnant, to another whose father pretty much abandoned her, another whose mother who has a personality disorder – actually, a lot of my friends’ have bonkers mothers. It gives you a certain outlook on life!
Most people, though, simply though get it. They think you are whingeing because your mom forgot your birthday or something! I’ve realised, over the years, that not everyone needs to know. Our insecurities are not for everyone to see.
When I had my last counselling session, the counsellor said to me “Thank you for what you have shared here. it’s been a privilege and I learned a lot from you”. I don’t think he was just saying that. Even though it was a crappy experience, there is something precious about it too. I wouldn’t show it to everyone.
You didn’t do anything to make your mother abuse you but I’m sure that you tried to get her to love you. It’s a hard pattern to break, but it can be done.
EllyB
on 16/11/2011 at 10:11 pm
@Grace: Oh yeah, I had similar experiences whenever I tried to talk about my mother. One thing is odd though: Now that I’ve gained more self-confidence, I rarely mention my mother anymore, but if I do, people seem to be much more understanding than they used to be.
I’m not sure why. Maybe I’m more convincing now. Or maybe I’m just interacting with different (more healthy) people? Or maybe many people were fairly sympathetic even in the past, but I focused on the few AC who claimed my mother didn’t do anything wrong? I think it’s a bit of all of those. I think my last point is particularly important, at least for me. If I blank out people with AC personalities, life suddenly becomes so much easier!
In my comment above, however, I wasn’t referring to this. To those people, I rarely talked about my mother. It was rather like “oh, I did something wrong” (usually some kind of small mistake) for which I apologized like crazy: “Yeah, I know, I’m so complicated and unreliable and don’t seem to get anything right” or “oh yeah, there was always something wrong with me when I even when I was a child” and people just said: “I don’t know what you’re talking about. You seem just fine to me. Now back to other topics”.
I don’t think they avoided the topic because they found it complicated. I believe it’s a rather healthy reaction to this kind of self-blame.
JadeSesame
on 15/11/2011 at 11:29 pm
A friend of mine used to say that if we keep attracting the same sort of man/situation, then there is something in us that pre-disposes us to attracting it. She had a bit of a hard liner stance that said “no one can make you feel insecure, only you can make yourself feel insecure”. I think that self-questioning and self-enquiry is very healthy, a sign that we are alive and awake to ourselves, but that tendency can escalate into a convoluted mental-labryinth that we create for ourselves, where decisions/actions end up being stalled, because we always intercept our thoughts with “what ifs”. Was trying for the longest time to ascertain whether or not my insecurities existed a priori, or if it was all induced by the man, or the abstract situation, some mysterious combination of us both. I thought that getting to the bottom of the matter and to determine the truth, would help me to find a solution, but it wasn’t my role to play detective at all. After a while, it ceases to matter. I’ve learnt to trust my feelings and use them as a guide, not write them off with rationality, another theory, a postulation. We can question and think ourselves to death. I was feeling intense emotions but I never really asked myself how I felt, always trying to pre-empt, calculate and anticipate the effect of my words/actions on the other party (whether my approval ratings would go up or down, if I was in the good/bad books). You’re absolutely right, Elle, about how it is time to bail when our insecurity sirens go into overdrive. It’s somewhat inevitable to be haunted by ghosts/shadows from the past, we all have our respective “pain sources” and sore spots, I think recognizing them and according oneself the space to feel whatever nasty feelings that emerge, and then, let it past and see it as being part of the past, might be a possible approach? Please stay in good form!
Natasha
on 16/11/2011 at 5:02 pm
“But I still felt hugely stressed and insecure when he started withholding, bottling and then spewing at me, and scaling back the relationship to certain times that suited him. That felt pretty terrible, despite my recent (and ongoing) form!”
Elle, I totally know what you mean! The thing of it is, no one is going to feel secure with someone like that. Bad behavior always feels terrible for the person on the receiving end of it. I am so glad you flushed this guy – you are awesome and should be with someone awesome 🙂
Fedup
on 15/11/2011 at 7:19 am
ACs love any Insecurity. They play on it and make it even worse. They don’t help by making you even more insecure. Then they dump you abd Blame you for it.
True Fedup, but that said, they cannot play on an insecurity that doesn’t exist. Conversely, if you weren’t insecure, you wouldn’t be with an AC in the first place.
brenda
on 15/11/2011 at 8:27 am
Ohhhh My Fav part of any day,A New post!Its like I am a kid,wondering what I am going to learn today!!
Wow this post is Major to me!!Heres the thing,I have never been secretive about my insecurities,I have always been upfront with the people I have dated,hell I am a walking poster child for this!
What bothers me the most,is that Eums use this against us,Its like driving the Knife in a little deeper..Why?What do they have to gain but making us feel worse about ourselves?What purpose does this serve?
I can remember times when The ex was stressed out from work,having a bipolar moment and generally being an angry asshole,So for him not to call shattered my already insecure heart,Of course,I needed answers,or reassurance,but what I got was beligerrent nasty words…Well that sent me into a tail spin…You know I could deal with being insecure before I met him,but Meeting this person was almost borderline dangerous to me..I am glad we are thru,for now,I am taking the time to work on my issues,and am ready for security,love,care,trust and respect,and not from any man,but from me!!!
Love you all!
Brenda
Hi Brenda. “What bothers me the most,is that Eums use this against us,Its like driving the Knife in a little deeper..Why?What do they have to gain but making us feel worse about ourselves?What purpose does this serve?” This is the same as asking why a thief robs an unlocked car – because they can.
This is one of the reasons why I keep saying to people not to vomit out their insecurities to partners as a way of generating sympathy and empathy in a ‘Look I told you about all of these insecurities so you can’t hurt me or at least you shouldn’t want to’. The truth is, you would never tell someone all of these things if on some level you didn’t already suspect that the very things you’re insecure about are things that are already present or have the potential to be present in the relationship. The fact is, at the time when these insecurities are shared, you do not know this person enough to trust them with such information. You’re also telling them that you have problems that get in the way of you being emotionally secure in the relationship. A decent person might think ‘Give it time’ or ‘This woman is great but she obviously needs to address this stuff on her own first’. Someone who is shady will act like you just gave them the blueprints on how to f*ck you over.
Lily
on 15/11/2011 at 2:26 pm
“decent person might think ‘Give it time’ or ‘This woman is great but she obviously needs to address this stuff on her own first’. Someone who is shady will act like you just gave them the blueprints on how to f*ck you over.”
So so so so so true Natalie.
brenda
on 15/11/2011 at 4:58 pm
Nat,I knew the errors in myself the minute I reread back what I wrote!And now I have it confirmed!Thank you..
I am taking everyday,everyPost,every story as a tool in which to learn more about me and the things I do or have not done..
The lesson for me today is working on my insecuritie…This will be a hard one as it has been my darkest enemy for so long,starting at a very early age…
I have been making alot of better choices in regards to Men lately,but its alot easier to go on a few dates and not have that attachment,so its no problem to say they are not for me…But If I were to meet someone who def interested me,Today,I know that my shit would come right along with me to sabatoage it..Its time to start rebuilding myself,and doing some HARD WORK!!
Thanks Again Nat and Ladies….
Brenda
First Relationship
on 15/11/2011 at 9:02 am
I definitely walked out with more insecurities than when I walked in with.
First serious relationship at 21, I sort of just saw people never really got attached even with potentially great boyfriend material. Was attracted to men who were fiercely ambitious and out living their lives. Even dated a marine and an RAF pilot, didnt see them often but found it exciting and never allowed myself to become too attached I knew their game so it was no big deal (EUW perhaps?)
Met the EUM in the last year of university fell for him completely I honestly still think he was the most hansome man I’ll ever meet. Chemistry amazing, silly old me dropped all my defenses opened up completely let him know one of my few insecurities and initially he was great about it made me feel amazing. As time went on he would “joke” about my looks and figure. He would say ‘I like curvy women, but it doesnt mean I dont like you’ ‘you’ve got the body of a boy’ Only joking! ‘Oh look what it says here size 14 is sexy’- As my natural figure is slim and my one only real insecurity was that I didn’t feel curvy and womanly enough. Big mistake as he would play on it. Sex then was only when he wanted it, and when I would say that I wanted more he would say well then be more confident about it then! I would go for it and he would reject me. Several times he did throughout the relationship. I ended up leaving him because it was all about control but now I’m out and its been several months I am scared to meet another man again in case he makes me feel as undesirable as I felt. I definitely internalised his withdrawal and rejection of me through withholding sex and affection. By the end he had brought out all the worst in me and I felt myself becoming needy and dependant. I stayed where my university was to be with him although all my friends had moved home and I left him while I was alone down there, just started a new job and didn’t know anyone. That shows him how ‘needy and suffocating I am’ doesn’t it!!
Leisha
on 15/11/2011 at 11:33 am
You have come to the right place to learn so that any more jackasses like your ex will not be able to destroy ANY part of you…read on…you have survived and will only grow wiser and stronger if you address your issues and really learn to love and respect yourself…it affects all aspects of your life and will only assist you…believe it or not we have all experienced versions of your story and it CAN get better but take the time to heal and learn before going back out…you are strong and you can do it.
First Relationship
on 15/11/2011 at 1:07 pm
Thank you so much for your kind words Leisha 🙂
I feel at times like my sexuality’s been taken away from me. My drive and desire for it has dropped significantly since being with him and I don’t know if that’s me putting up a defence.
I read so frequently here about men wanting women for booty calls etc and although that is using and I would not want that either, I feel like being rejected sexually even more damaging. I must remember that the issue was his and not mine and It was all about control, not about me. I must not internalise it and make it any bigger than it is.
Hi First Relationship. At 21, I think you’d be hard pushed to find many people of a similar age in serious relationships. If this was 30-40+ years ago, it would be a different story.
This is an open and shut case of assholery and at 21, I would snatch back your life with both hands and bounce this man – FAST. This is not to patronise you when I say this – you are *young*! Do you have any idea how many of my readers would love to be 21 again with some self-esteem? Because you know what? If you don’t bounce this rodent fast, you will be with variations of this man either for the rest of your life or until you finally have an epiphany. Have the enough moment *now* because he is setting you up to chase affection and attention from assholes who dangle it at you like a dog with a piece of meat. Your chemistry is highly overrated if this is how he’s treating you. Handsome? Yes but ugly behaviour. You cannot go out with his face or his penis. Him and all of his assholic ways come as a package deal. Stay away from this clown and don’t ever let anyone speak to you this way again!
First Relationship
on 15/11/2011 at 2:10 pm
Ha Natalie you’ve just put the biggest smile on my face 😀
I left him about 3 and a half months ago 🙂 He tried to come back on a couple of occasions but I couldn’t allow myself to go back there. In fact I was ‘scared’ to because I knew I wouldn’t have the strength to get out a second time. I was alone down here, didn’t have anyone and still managed to leave him and not go back. I’m starting to begin making friends at work and with the girls I share a new house with…its a slow process but I’m gradually getting a life together.
You are right. At my age I have so much to learn and I am thankful to have found your site!! One thing I know for sure is that I will never let someone treat me that way again…guaranteed
Lily
on 15/11/2011 at 2:01 pm
@ First Relationship
I am so sorry to hear about your terrible experience. I too have experienced similar …. at the beginning they idealise you then they gradually start chipping away (those jokes are always serious. My ex boyfriend would ‘joke’ about things like my appearance but there was always a grain of truth. Things as well that he knew I was specifically insecure about. I’ve had saggy t*ts, saggy ass, smelly, crazy, psycho, I dress like a knacker, don’t have as many Facebook friends, don’t put on my nail varnish right …. yes, really, all jokes of course ha, ha, ha .. very funny) at you and withdrawing … it’s all control and all designed at eroding you to the point where you won’t have enough confidence to leave and realise that the biggest joke of all is them.
I have also experienced the sexual rejection thing too. He went from wanting me all of the time to only wanting me on his terms (even once he pulled me off him during it (this destroyed me)). He attributed this to being too tired from work but then joked at one point that maybe he would have sex with me more if I shaved my legs more often lol. Sad thing is I was shaving my legs every second day …. so I started shaving my legs everyday instead.
And still I was ‘too insecure’. Lol.
Never, never again. These men are really pathetic. Well, well done to you for having the strength to leave him. Hugs. xxx
First Relationship
on 15/11/2011 at 3:08 pm
Oh my god Lily! My heart genuinely goes out to you! What an absolute knobber!
Do you know in the oddest way it is such a relief to hear somebody else has had such a similar experience as me. My one would “joke” about shaving as well! I’m sure you must have had the whole ‘turn their back on you’ in bed scenario as well. Oh definitely heard the ‘I’m tired, if you had tried it earlier I would have been in the mood but I’m not now’ excuse! Pathetic. But we do internalise it, we take it as a stab at our femininity and sexuality rather than seeing that they’re obviously not man enough to meet our wants or needs!
Lily
on 15/11/2011 at 9:32 pm
Oh I feel the same, even though I would HATE to imagine anyone else in a similar senario to me … it is a relief in a way to know that I’m not a stranger in my experiences.
There is a stronger side to me now though as a result of this experience that is like ‘you know what, how about you shave your legs everyday???’ hahaha. 🙂
How I even let a man speak to this is beyond me. I’m not much older than you are (26).
The turning around in bed thing is the most hardest thing to deal with and I sympathise and empathise so completely. I couldn’t understand how he didn’t want me anymore especially seeing how he pressured me so much for sex in the beginning … I didn’t even want it when we first had it I was just accomodating him. Then he just started not really showing an interest in me sexually like I was some kind of an inconvience to him. I never felt as unsexy and ugly and unworthy in my life as it did when I was with him.
But it is all control. A real man would not be comfortable with a woman that feeling like this about him.
I’m grateful for my experience even though it has shattered my confidence to a certain extent.
It’s teaching me. 🙂
JadeSesame
on 15/11/2011 at 10:57 pm
Sorry that you both had to endure such demeaning, cruel remarks from toads. I think that sexual rejection is definitely a great blow to our femininity– we’ve been conditioned to think that men want women for sex, and so when we’re not even wanted as booty calls, it is confusing (“what? you don’t even want me for sex”?) and if we don’t see it objectively, as a problem that has nothing to do with us, that yes it’s a certain breed of men exercising their control in an abusive way– these bastards probably make very very poor sexual partners too, due to a sheer lack of empathy, whatever connection, emotional, mental, physical, will always be impoverished.
blueberry girl
on 16/11/2011 at 12:57 am
@Lily “…it’s all control and all designed at eroding you to the point where you won’t have enough confidence to leave and realise that the biggest joke of all is them.” You have hit the nail on the head with that one!
My exMM often pointed out that I should have a tummy tuck (because *I* would feel better about myself!) and exploited every insecurity I felt about my curvy body. He broke down my confidence to the point where I thought no other man would find me desirable. And poof, he took control because we musn’t have our piece of a** thinkin’ she’s all that and walkin’ out the door!
@First Relationship
Honey, I’m a size 14. See above comment regarding the AC/MM and his suggested tummy tuck. That just illustrates it doesn’t matter what figure type you have…it really is about exploiting our insecurities to maintain their control. Ewww, it now makes my skin crawl (extra tummy and all) that I allowed him to minimize me in that way. Don’t let *anyone* do that. You’re better than that!
First Relationship
on 16/11/2011 at 9:17 am
Lily, JadeSesame, Blueberry Girl,
Thank you all so much for your advice/comments, you do wonder how on earth you put up with it but when it is disguised in *jokes* and it is gradual it really can somehow creep up on you before you fully realise what they’re doing.
JadeSesame- I think I will agree with you there about poor lovers, even if they start out great (probably to win you over) by the end I felt like I was just being used like a rag doll and although I wanted the sex so badly afterwards I would feel a bit empty. I did believe that I was more confident than most girls my age but now I’ve realised I’m not at all to allow this treatment. Ah well lesson learnt eh! Sending hugs out to all of you 🙂 x
Lily
on 16/11/2011 at 10:15 am
Hah my ex actually ‘joked’ at one point that he didn’t mind if I got ‘fat’ while he was away (for work for a few months) because then no other man would find me attractive (haha … as if my looks would be the only attribute a man would find attractive in me).
I don’t know how this comment didn’t really ring with me. I remember thinking …. “that’s a pretty strange thing to joke about” … but just passed it off as a ‘joke’ like all of his other jokes …..
or the ‘joke’ he made that he ‘almost wouldn’t mind if I got pregnant’ because then he would get to ‘keep’ me … LOL. We were barely dating a month at that stage. Me in my twisted little world thought it was an odd comment but just a joke and actually felt ‘flattered’ that he wanted to ‘keep’ me when really I should have ran, ran, ran.
Talking about this has actually made me realise how much I’ve grown since.
I often find that insecurity can trap us into difficult situations and if the other person in that relationship is taking advantage, exploiting or exasperating those insecurities it can become very difficult to leave.
First Relationship
on 16/11/2011 at 11:09 am
I agree completely Lily,
I just don’t want to feel like that again with anyone. You are right it does make it incredibly hard to leave. The night I left my ex he actually turned up at my house topless!! Okay I can laugh at the absolute arrogance of it now but because I was so drawn to him sexually at the time I remember thinking ‘oh god I have to leave that body and that face!’ He definitely used his body and sex as a weapon I can see that now. Thankfully I am not as superficial as I originally thought I could be!
Lily
on 16/11/2011 at 12:28 pm
@ First Relationship
Haha that makes me laugh! The audacity … similar thing happened to me (are we twins?) … the last time I saw my ex he was sitting on the ground dropping me off at a bus stop, hadn’t bothered to put a top on, stinking of booze, shedding crocidile tears … It was then I realised ‘This is not what I want for myself’ .. I did not think he was looking sexy at all that day fortunately. It was a pathetic scene. It did hurt me to see him like that but he had left me alone crying on many occassions. I shut off my empathy towards him because he clearly had not an ounce for me.
These experiences serve to teach us about ourselves.
Also I agree entirely on the way these jokes creep up. We are conditioned to find remarks presented in a ‘joke’ format funny and entertaining. I often laughed with him at some of the ‘jokes’ because I didn’t want to be percieved as lacking in humour. Then I stopped laughing at them and started to feel increasingly insecure. The odd time I might ‘joke’ back but that hurt me also not only because he would bite back more viciously but also because I cared about him.
Jokes are supposed to make two people or more laugh on the inside and outside. When one person is frequently on the receiving end of these supposedly humourous remarks it is nothing short of bullying.
“you can be insecure and be with someone who is behaving in ways that will actually make even the most confident of people struggle to have confidence in the relationship”.
Spot on Natalie. If a situation is bad for you and someone is behaving badly it doesn’t matter HOW much confidence you have … it will make you question. The difference between someone with self esteem and someone lacking it however is that a person with self esteem will question the RELATIONSHIP based on the bad behaviour and either address it or preferably leave wheras a person with low self esteem will question THEMSELVES.
Thank you so much for educating me Natalie and all the wonderful people who post here. 🙂
Artemisia
on 15/11/2011 at 10:35 am
All relationships bring up your insecurities because revealing yourself to another human being makes you vulnerable to have these insecurities exposed. In the worst case scenario these insecurities gets exploited by another person for their own gain ( make themselves feel better and avoid dealing with their crap) leaving you exposed to abuse. Abusers are amazing at reading your needs, play on them, pushing the right buttons to amuse themselves or making some of us you swallow cocaine filled balls on a flight home back from Mexico.
The other person is not there to erase your crap, it’s your job to deal with it. Life is not a fairy tale. Forget the co- dependent songs – I am nothing without your love.
In the best relationships your insecurities are still exposed and integrated but are balanced out by the security and strength the relationship brings.
You can work out your mess in a crap relationship, if you sort yourself out that is.
“The other person is not there to erase your crap, it’s your job to deal with it. Life is not a fairy tale. Forget the co- dependent songs – I am nothing without your love.
In the best relationships your insecurities are still exposed and integrated but are balanced out by the security and strength the relationship brings. ” Wow just wow Artemisia.
But what the what now on the cocaine filled balls? Sweet beejesus! That could have killed you!
Artemisia
on 15/11/2011 at 3:58 pm
Natalie,
Thanks,
Sorry, I was being dramatic for effect, ok maybe a little too dramatic lol, the cocaine filled balls is an example of what a man who “ loves you “ can make you do. I never did that, but I did many stupid things in love. I read a story of cocaine mules, women picked on for their vulnerabilities and needs by bottom feeders, and who realized they had been deceived once in jail. It stayed with me.
Jane,
Thanks,
to get to that point, I have kissed many frogs.
snh
on 15/11/2011 at 9:08 pm
@Artemesia: I am right there with you. 🙂 “Forget the co- dependent songs – I am nothing without your love.” Isn’t that the very truth? Recently I was listening to my iPod and some of those “nothing without your love” songs came on. In the past I’d get all nostalgic and sentimental. This time, I had no connection – there was no pull from the song. None. My only thought: we live in a world where unhealthy co-dependency is glorified and I blame Tammy Wynette. 😉 Lol.
You’re so on target with the idea that insecurites are still exposed in relationships, but the good ones, the healthy ones, integrate and balance them. Brilliant. It is absolutely true. And it all goes back to cultivating self-esteem. Fundamental stuff. The line between being imperfect (which we all are and always will be) and plain assholery is large and distinct. Self-esteem is what separates the women and men that see the line, and those that don’t.
JadeSesame
on 15/11/2011 at 10:47 pm
Great comment, Artemisia. I used to languish and wallow in romantic poetry about unhappy love– it didn’t help at all.
I think we can work out our mess AFTER a crap relationship too, start self-discovery, healing, growth and if we all keep this perspective in mind, then we won’t think of ourselves as having been losers in love, not having lost at all but on the contrary!
Jasmine
on 16/11/2011 at 7:37 am
Yes Artemesia, ideally you can reveal your insecurities so they understand you on a deeper level, but you are not asking them to fix it. I once revealed after a being with someone for a couple of years that when I was younger I had struggled with mild hypochondria but that I had come a long way by understanding what I really feared, ect. I wasn’t telling him because I wanted him to fix me, it was just something I’d dealt with years ago, a part of my personal history. He was the first person I had ever told outside of family. Months later, as he broke up with me he threw it in my face as an example of how worry too much about things. I mean really, I didn’t expect him to come and save me from my fears, but I didn’t expect him to weaponize it either 🙂
When I found that the guy I was in love was sleeping about, and while I was detoxing I listened to
Carrie Underwood : Cowboy Casanova – sums up bad-boys
Before he cheats
Any Pink all on a loop. And Maroon 5 because I was a gym bunny to vent my anger.
We all have our insecurities, sometimes what attracts us to the other person is the thing that will bug us down the line or what will be thrown in a fight or a breakup. In Jungian psychology, it’s the shadow- self, it’s the part of ourselves that we hide or try to disown because of shame or fear that we point out in the other person. Your insecurities will reveal themselves, we can’t trap them in, they are part of us, make our character – good or bad . What can make us great is working on them and rising above them. One of my closest friend is a control freak, sometimes it bugs me and throw it in his face and sometimes makes light of it. He bugs me about my chronic mess making, sometimes it hurts, sometimes it makes me laugh. When we are the kindest on our weakness and insecurities, then in return we can be kind on those of another person.
I really believe even crap relationships teach us something. We embark in them replaying family dynamic, bad ones and all, hoping for a better outcome. Maybe I have read too much Dr. John Gottman or Pat Love, who co- wrote How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About. In my last bad relationship, he bugged me so much by being heartless and self-preserving that when he told me how he really felt I was way too angry and frustrated to listen properly. It was too late, despite the fact that we loved each other. In the end, I was alone with my failures having learned what I needed from a relationship and he was in a comfy relationship where he replayed his parent’s marriage too chicken- shit to escape. With what I know now, I could see that I was not brave enough to quit it early on and dragged it long past it sell by date. It was painful, but it taught me tons. I accept my insecurities, I try to be brave every day and it’s the only way not to be ruled by them.
Jane
on 15/11/2011 at 10:58 am
Thank you for this entry – I feel like I am learning how to be again!
The key issue for me here is that you can be insecure but to recognise where your insecurity comes from. Its like Nat says – you can be insecure but if you are in a relationship where you are getting messed about and abused then its not surprising – what you have to do is recognise that its not all you and get out.
And you can be insecure but if you are in a relationship that is supporting you and nurturing you then you have to do the work to overcome those insecurities or it might become a self fulfilling prophecy.
This rings home for me so much. My marriage I was constantly being told I wasn’t good enough- verbally and non verbally, I wasn’t respected, it wasn’t a co-piloted relationship and I took it all on as being my fault – like Nat says we can be insecure but most loving, healthy people will support us in a relationship not play on those insecurities. My ex used my insecurities and some! Told me some awful things and I let him! My responsibility was to have got out when it all started happening.
I am beginning to see things so much more clearly. I have been out of a relationship now for 5 months for the first time in 20 years! It has been hard but finally I am at a place where I can genuinely say I don’t want someone just yet as I am busy working on me.
So now my responsibility is to work on my insecurities so I don’t bring a suitcase of them to my next relationship and to know when I am being AC’d and get out quicker. Thank you Natalie and everyone here
Laura Lou
on 15/11/2011 at 11:12 am
I feel like I have been waiting for this post.
For the last few months I have been getting to know a really lovely guy who I am now in a relationship with. He is really dependable and loving, and we share values and attitudes, I have never felt this secure in a relationship – So much so that scares the crap out of me. So now I am feeling insecure about the fact that I feel secure… I mean, seriously, How dumb is that?!
Thankfully I have managed to get back in touch with reality often enough to realise that it is my lack of self esteem that drives these feelings and not my boyfriend or our relationship, and its something I need to work on and not something I can demand from him.
Thanks Natalie for the kick up the bum! 🙂
meagen19
on 15/11/2011 at 2:32 pm
Laura
I know what you’re feeling. We are not used to feeling secure..it feels almost…scary. I think it’s because we keep expecting the other shoe to drop. “It’s never been this good before..there is no WAY this will last . SOMETHINGs gonna happen! Something always happens!” At least that’s how it feels to me.
Donna L
on 15/11/2011 at 11:36 am
How do you do it? I was struggling with this exact thing this weekend. I thought my insecurities caused the failure of my relationship but when a person lies, dripfeeds or engages in shady behavior it’s difficult to trust them. This causes doubts that feel like insecurity. And of course a man who doesn’t want to admit responsibility for anything will accuse you of being insecure.
Thank you a million times for helping me gain some clarity on this.
Lily
on 15/11/2011 at 1:32 pm
Oh wow Natalie this is very very relevant to me and I’m delighted you have touched on it. Thank you.
I have never been massively massively insecure in relationships. My last one was a seven year one with a really nice man (we drifted apart) and never did I feel the need to question him, I trusted him implicitly.
In my last relationship I felt very very insecure right from the beginning. There was just something about him that didn’t seem honourable or trustworthy but I was desperate for love. He told me he loved me within days of meeting me (he was pressuring me intensely for sex and funnily told me he loved me for the first time the night after I told him I wouldn’t sleep with him until he loved me … DUH ..stupid me 🙁 ). He did many things that would make ANY girl feel insecure. For example would insult my appearance in the guise of a joke or other things about me. I knew he didn’t love me based on his actions (he was just talking out of his bum really) but I would still question him and his feelings for me. HE HATED THIS and would get very angry at me for being ‘too insecure’ and not having faith in him … it felt like one big mindf**k because I had very legitimate reasons to feel the way I did.
We went long distance for a while and I would be lucky to get one text a day or if I was really lucky he’d text me at one or two in the morning asking me to call him which I always did eagerly. When I questioned him on the sporadic contact he told me it was because ‘I was too insecure’ and that he was ‘busy’. My heart was broken with it. I don’t know how he even thought the situation would improve by not contacting me in a long distance relationship. It didn’t seem fair.
I started to get very insecure about being insecure and tried as much as I could to keep my feelings to myself even when he acted very inappropriately.
I’m glad to be out of it and gradually am regaining confidence in myself. Has anyone here been through something like this?
cavewoman
on 16/11/2011 at 2:34 am
Man oh man Lily, have I been through something similar. Being told it’s my insecurity, not something he can ‘help me with’ and to get ‘thicker skin’ and when I stopped sharing those painful feelings, but the dubious behavior recurred, being subtly reminded that he’s ‘so glad I’m not like them’ (meaning the other women, ya know the insecure ones that he’s left behind in the dust) and that he’d be singing ‘Don’t let the door hit ya’ to *them* of course, but I’m not like them, right? Yes I’ve been there and when it was happening I refused to believe it was happening, because honestly I could not bear to fully feel the humiliation.
Eyeswideshut
on 15/11/2011 at 1:48 pm
Hi, I’ve been reading this site for a few months and found it to be so useful and a massive reality check. I’d really appreciate a bit of insight into my situation. It’s so hard to boil down the relationship to one post but I’ll give it a shot.
I met my current bf when I’d been single for nearly 4 years after a really terrible break up and felt I’d left behind all that pain and was so ready for someone to share my life with. 3 weeks in he told me he had a son (previously said he was his nephew) and that the reason I hadn’t been able to come to his house was that he lives with his ex for financial reasons but he’d move out now he’s met me. The son wasn’t the end of the world for me but I was really unhappy he’d lied. I went on to uncover he’d also lied about having facebook, eventually he said it was because the ex could take him to court and take half his money if she got upset and he was having things put into a trust, then our relationship could be normal.
I know what your thinking, why did i even bother to pursue this relationship when everything was so bad from the outset? I guess I saw so much potential, big mistake to fall for someones potential, I see that now!
Anyway, the crux of my problem is that 4 months on and he still lives with her and even though I actually do believe (90% of the time anyway) they aren’t in a realtionship I am still getting the crumbs, brushoffs and excuses as if he were. I’ve started to notice really self-destructive habits coming back into my life that i thought I’d left behind and that’s whats made me realise i need to do something about it but it’s so hard and he always makes me believe the solution is just around the corner. This site is helping so much but i can’t seem to make the break yet.
Magnolia
on 15/11/2011 at 10:22 pm
Hi eyeswideshut,
It sounds as though you are actually pretty clear on the situation you have entered into. The lies are enough to say no way, the living with the ex is more than enough to say no thanks. Your task now is to extricate yourself. You can worry about asking yourself why you allowed yourself to get involved with such a non-starter once you are out of the pseudo-relationship, get your head clear, and start refocusing on you. The fact that old bad behaviours are resurfacing, and that hanging with this guy is undoing hard work that you have done on you, should be a big wake-up! A guy should be value-added, not dragging you down lower than where you were without him!
Leisha
on 16/11/2011 at 12:41 am
Mags,Spot on! Eyes: time to get the fire out of that…choose your hard (I love that phrase!)
ixnay
on 16/11/2011 at 12:02 am
eyes…
I really feel for you. And the thing is, they are in a relationship. They are parents and they live together. And the fact that he concealed that from you during the heady initial romance, and the fact he associates lying about fb to not wanting her to see your connection and get upset (the whole money/trust fund thing sounds fishy to me; the point is she’d get upset, he doesn’t want her to know) — well, he hasn’t told her he’s dating you. Which means he is either still preserving that relationship and you are an in-the-dark OW, or he is in a huge mess of pending custody and assets division that has not even started to get ugly.
He dripfed you the truth, and now he’s doing brushoffs and excuses. He’s not available, physically or emotionally.
You didn’t choose this situation and it is unfair. The “solution around the corner” ploy could possibly keep you in limbo for *years.*
And it’s not about the outcome; you might think you “win” if he leaves, and then the fairy tale starts. The relationship exists in the *now.* And now it sucks for you. And the longer it sucks for you like this, the less you have an actual both-feet-in relationship, the more skewed the dynamic (his excuses, your “pressure,” your trying to be understanding, your suppressed anger). Until it really doesn’t matter if he leaves, because there is no payoff that makes up for the way he is wasting your time and love *now.*
It’s only been 4 months. Get out before it’s 4 years. And actually, a clean break gives the best chance of him taking authentic action to deal with his existing relationship. But by then, I hope, you would not want him. He lied to you. He engaged you emotionally without cleaning up his sh*t. And now it’s yours. And he’s willing to keep on doing it as long as you let him. What kind of partner is that? What kind of father denies he has a kid in order to date?
I am really sorry. You deserve way way better.
grace
on 16/11/2011 at 11:02 am
eyes
hee, my abusive ex did the same thing. Months in he tells me he has a son. Then his ex is “crazy” (yawn). Then he can’t see me because he’s helping his ex move . Then she’s screwing him over financially.
Was he in a relationship with her at the time? I don’t think so but just because he isn’t putting his thing in her thing, it doesn’t make him free. Or a decent person.
Arlena
on 15/11/2011 at 2:20 pm
NML: “…as if ‘love’ fixes everything.”
There are so many myths and fairy tales about what love is allegedly able to fix and overcome that a compilation would be due. I bought into many bad ideas about “love”. For me it began with wanting to fix my unhappy Mum… Time to get clear what love is and what love was never meant to be.
I start reminding me that:
Love is a feeling AND action.
Love is not a remedy. You cannot love away negative character traits, addictions or other deficiencies.
My love is not their love.
Loving someone doesn’t mean the other person owes reciprocation.
Love is not pain. Pain is not noble love.
In the name of love sometimes very unlovable acts are done.
Don’t mix up romantic love with real love.
To be continued…
NML, again I am very grateful for your definitions as they provide a framework to refer to in wobbly moments. They are like beacons to me to never lose sight of healthy coasts while steering my life boat. Thanks.
PS.: Love the picture, good to memorize.
You wouldn’t chance more than a toe if you felt toxic, acid (relationship) waters. – Or would anyone like with gritted teeth to acclimatise as far as to take a swim and beyond to stay? ;D
annied
on 15/11/2011 at 5:53 pm
I wasn’t insecure until I filleted myself in a semi-relationship with an EUAC. I’m in my 40’s and I’ve never experienced anything like this person before. I still cannot imagine being in a relationship. A real one.
The same jaw-dropping behavior that jerk smeared on me is all over this blog in every post and comment. Makes me wonder what is becoming of relationships in the world. No phone calls – texting and IMing – posting on FB … Forget FT (FACE TIME) What the heck is that?
Okay, sorry for the rant.
*sigh* I know one day I will return to the confident and happy person I was before I became involved with him … just wish it wouldn’t take so fn long.
cavewoman
on 15/11/2011 at 8:29 pm
Hello Natalie and readers,
my name is Cavewoman and I am a validate-aholic. Luckily (?!) I am insecure enough that I feel quite secure in my insecurity. I wish I could laugh at this, I hope I will some day: whenever my old boss deigned to talk to me, I’d get so discombobulated that I used to say exactly the wrong thing most of the time. By the time I opened my mouth I was terrified of sounding once again like an idiot. And yes, all the while I wondered if it’s me or my boss. When we got ‘reorganized’ and got a new manager, comparing the old with the new I saw how aloof, prickly, and passive aggressive my old manager had been towards me. Consistently. Someone here said there are sharks out there that can sniff out desperation blood from a mile away – and just as sure there are also sharks sniffing out insecurity blood!
The parallels between this post and the previous one on stress is very enlightening. Not only did I have stress normalized, I’d managed to make a virtue out of normalizing it (sticking it out in tough situations -ouch). Insecurity normalizes insecurity. I normalized being poorly managed thinking that maybe other colleagues had earned my manager’s kindness and an encouraging word once in a while, but not I, until I’ve proven myself. Truth is, I was dealing with a bitterly passive aggressive situation and blaming myself for not being able to magically fix it by invoking compassion with my jedi mind tricks. (Never mind addressing the situation, I do recognize that passive aggressive people would never admit to mistreating you by definition.) Just like trying to squeeze a relationship out of an EU person.
Within EU-ships, the painful turning point is precisely when the validation high wears off for the first time… try protesting disrespect and your co-EU person helpfully informs you that you are insecure and that is your problem, not theirs. The mind-effery is that if you are indeed insecure, you get defensive and don’t notice they changed the topic and took the focus off the assholery in question. I’ve had this happen to me word for word.
Can someone — Natalie? perhaps please share actual stories of how truly honest conversations about insecurities look like in a healthy relationship? Responses that are actually helpful? What’s it like when the other person maintains boundaries while remaining supportive? How does the dialogue go?
Magnolia
on 15/11/2011 at 10:41 pm
I’d like to add a third vibe to the set of vibes that we can too easily normalize: a) stress, 2) insecurity, 3) negativity.
Your question, Cave, got me thinking. My insecurities often manifest as negativity: ie. statements where I say, “I’m not successful enough.” “I’m not pretty enough.” “My butt isn’t firm enough.” Whatever.
I grew up surrounded by and gravitating to people who wanted to bitch with me. As in, me: “I am so fat, ugh …” Them: “I know, I totally have to get to the gym.” “I’m so lazy, I haven’t been in weeks.” “Yeah, me too. We really should ….” Etc. etc.
Healthy people might hear: “I am so fat, ugh.” And they might, to a young woman, who they are parenting or mentoring, say, “Don’t speak about yourself that way, sweetie. If you’re frustrated, what can we do about it?” But to another adult, they might not even pick up the ball. You can kind of tell when someone is seeking validation and healthy people know it’s pointless to try to give it to someone from the outside.
I know that one of my good friends would have to tread VERY lightly with me to try to talk to me about insecurity.
Who are you imagining this conversation happening with? A boyfriend? I have been there, imagining that my boyfriend would provide the kind of support that my parents should have when I was younger, giving me pep talks and gently steering me away from self-doubt. But that’s not the job of a boyfriend. If he does take that parental/one-up role, and you begin to depend on it, it’s not healthy (case in point, my first two LTRs).
Unfortunately, when it comes to dating, I imagine that the conversation with a healthy person, if there had to be a conversation, would go like this: “Honey, I can’t give you self-confidence around X. You know I believe in you; you know I think you’re attractive; you’re great. I hope you begin to believe in yourself soon because I don’t want to be asked to keep telling you what you won’t believe anyway.” If it’s early enough on, I think a healthy person would back off from too much insecurity/stress/negativity displayed early on.
I say this as someone who still apologizes for my lack of social skills when I meet new people (working on that! whispers to self, I am socially competent, I am liked just fine, I like myself…). I’ll be interested to hear what others say.
grace
on 16/11/2011 at 10:18 am
cavewoman
If we are insecure in a relationship, there may be a good reason. If he’s married (not to you), abusing you, disappearing, you’re going to feel insecure.! I don’t think talking will help. It just gives you the illusion that you are addressing the issue – all that’s happening is that words are coming out of your mouth and he’s ignoring them or, worse, using them against you.
If we are insecure in a relationship and there is no good reason, I think it’s best not to “talk it out”. I don’t think most men have the stamina for that kind of psychoanalysis. I was friends with a man who DID have time for it. We’d spend hours chewing it over and all we were doing was digging a big pit of insecurity and then jumping into it. That insecurity comes within ourselves and we need to address it ourselves, ideally we addressed before we went into the relationship. This man is not the previous man and I expect it would get old very quickly having to keep proving it.
It may be worth discussing something concrete, such as “Who was that woman I saw you yesterday?” or “Why are you fifty minutes late? or “Please, for the love of God, tell me I look nice every now and then and remember our flippin anniversary!”
ixnay
on 16/11/2011 at 1:07 pm
I’ve been in a couple of relationships with really good men. The latest one (1999, sheesh) happened when I was reeling in heartbreak. Anyhow, he was crazy about me and I couldn’t figure out why because I was a mess. I couldn’t even deal with opening my mail; I just zoned in front of the tv. And I had no energy for kick-starting my life; I needed a job, a social life, but I was living on savings and self-isolating.
So I tell this guy things like “I have nothing to give you; I can’t cook, I’m not glamorous, all I do is watch tv.” And he says things like, “You give more than you know. You have a gentle energy and a kindness, that’s what really counts.” And, “Well, there’s watching tv and then there’s watching tv. You’re really doing something else, the tv just happens to be on.” And when I was upset that he paid for all our trips and I felt like a user, he said, “You add so much more than money to the experience, I feel like I’m incredibly lucky to share things with you.”
Compare this with recent guy. “Learn to effing cook!” “You know you’re just mainlining corporate propaganda, effing wasting your life in front of the tv?” “You don’t have any friends; you’ve just decided to get old.”
The first guy was very available. I wasn’t. So it’s not a “pure” case of dealing with insecurities within a committed relationship because I was not only expressing insecurity; I was also warning him not to expect too much. It was scary for me that he accepted me just as I was, and I didn’t want to take advantage or turn hm into a Florence. I always felt this gut-level guilt that I was on some level using him and his kindness and somehow the karma scales would get me. At a distance of a decade, I think he wasn’t just a patsy; I think he was a decent, self-aware guy who genuinely believed I had a lot to offer. I just couldn’t.
I’ve been thinking about him a lot as I’ve gone NC with his successor. The latter guy keeps reaching out to me in nostalgic-romantic ways that get my hopes up, and then, once assured I am here for him, fades away. I now realize I did that with the first guy. I would call him when things were rocky with the second guy, just to be calmed by his voice and perspective. And he would say, “Are you still with that guy?” And I’d say, “um, yeah.” And he’d go quiet. And then he cut off contact. Last year I tried to fb friend him and he never accepted. It’s only now, being on the other side of the dynamic, that I understand how hard it must have been for him to cut contact, how he had to protect himself, and how inappropriate sending a fb invite was. I want to tell him, “I understand now what I did to you.”
grace
on 16/11/2011 at 8:26 pm
ixnay
I identify with what you say here. Don’t take the FB to heart – I’ve not accepted friend requests because I think “let sleeping dogs lie”. It’s not that I hate the other person or disapprove of them. Chances are very good that he’s moved on and like many decent people has decided that it wouldn’t work to be friends with an ex. He could even be married.
we’ve all made mistakes and many of us have been EU in relationships. and been on the receiving end of it. It’s how it goes until we learn and then the right person will come at the right time.
Hayley Rose
on 15/11/2011 at 9:14 pm
In my last two dating experiences the same thing happened. The shadow of their last girl friend began to appear. At first I thought I was being insecure by worrying whether or not they would go back to her; however, I was not. I was not insecure- I was right! They both fell off the face of the planet without explanation likely to go back to their ex. In my case my insecurity was really a gut “feeling” telling me what was up. It’s difficult to tell the difference until you have hindsight.
Natasha
on 15/11/2011 at 10:39 pm
Hayley Rose (beautiful name, btw!), it’s possible that they went back with their exes, but it’s equally possible that they disappeared because you started expecting things from them and, since they weren’t emotionally available, they did the Houdini. I completely agree that the yucky insecure feeling is often a warning. After they’ve disappeared you realize that there were things going on that said “Hmmmm, something’s not right here!” and that’s why you had that gut feeling. You’re well rid of both of these guys – onwards and upwards! 🙂
Mary31
on 15/11/2011 at 10:18 pm
This could have been written for me today! A ‘quagmire’ is the perfect description of how this vicious circle of insecurity feels. Following recently being dumped, I am wondering whether my general insecurity ruined a potentially good relationship, or whether I felt insecure because of the way the relationship was. Perhaps it was a two-way street.
During the first few months of our relationship I had a massive guard up because I find it quite hard to be vulnerable with someone. I also did have a few doubts about him, but insecurity meant I didn’t want to let go (and I was ridiculously more concerned with how he was feeling than how I was feeling!) We trundled along reasonably contented for another year, but looking back I know he wasn’t totally into me and he began more obviously losing interest. So, did I then take the sensible option and get out of there? Of course not! My insecurity kicked me into desperately trying to keep him into me eg. spending days on end looking for perfect presents for him, and perfect trips away. All the while he was just passing time with me until he met someone else. Who unfortunately happens to be more stunning, thin, tanned and artistic than me. Great. Hello further insecurity. I’m now left feeling that I wasn’t interesting/ fun/ attractive enough.
It’s really hard when you’ve had a lifelong feeling of insecurity, because this makes it nearly impossible to shake yourself into feeling positive about the future. It also makes it impossible to judge how you really feel – is this me being my usual weird self, or is this genuinely not right? It’s so frustrating.
Gina
on 16/11/2011 at 12:20 am
Damn!! I LOVE Baggage Reclaim! My only wish was that I’d found this site right after I broke up with my ex. Oh well, better late than never 🙂
Heartache Amy
on 16/11/2011 at 12:26 am
I had considered myself to be pretty insecure until I met my soon-to-be ex-husband. We’ve been married for 11 years and while I felt some insecurity from time to time during our marriage (it probably didn’t help that he was verbally and emotionally abusive and would frequently put me down), I felt like I was coming into my own. But last October, he told me he didn’t want to be married and a year later, we’re finally starting divorce proceedings. It’s been a horrible year. Meanwhile, over the summer, I made the BIG mistake of becoming involved with an insecure, EU married man. I know, what was I thinking? At the time, he made me feel desirable, beautiful, etc. Of course, it ended…leaving me feeling hurt all over again, and yes, insecure again. I know I have to work on myself, but I don’t feel like I have what it takes to meet a “nice”, “normal” guy, probably because I don’t know what it’s like. And given my age, I’ll probably have to resort to internet dating sites to meet someone which is about as appealing as wallowing in the mud!
grace
on 16/11/2011 at 9:44 am
Amy
I met someone at church who had been married to a man who didn’t like to have sex with her (though they did manage to have kids), was controlling and even physically violent. Turned out he was homosexual. They got divorced.
She met someone else (a widow) through church. Widower eventually asked her out. She gave him a big spiel on “I’ve got my life in order. I don’t do dates. I don’t go out with men!” (reminded me of myself) So the man says “okay, let’s just go out as friends”. Long and short of it, they are now married.
She met him in her 50s.
As Magnolia comments above, we can normalise negativity – men are this, men are that, women are this and that, too old, relationships are hard, all the good men are gone … blah blah blah.
How much of it is actually true and how much of it is of our own making?
Heartache Amy
on 17/11/2011 at 12:36 am
grace,
I’m sure you’re right. It’s just that right now, I don’t feel too hopeful. I spent 11 years married to a man who was wrong for me, and then this summer, I continued the pattern (with a married man). I just feel discouraged and now that I’m in my mid 40s, it seems a little bleak. But, your story is encouraging and maybe, just maybe, when I’m ready, I’ll meet the proverbial nice guy.
chloe
on 16/11/2011 at 3:39 am
Hi eyeswideshut and all,
Your post seems to fit in nicely with what happened to me this week. I am doing NC and getting better at it, my ex is still emailing me, asking me out, he wants to be friends, no can do, not now. So, I ignore them and go back n forth with this…still need to write the unsent letter. Anyways, I got a call from a cute guy I met in August who seemed emotionally in touch, the kind of guy who looks deeply into your eyes when he talks to you, who knows how to connect. When I met him I was still wrapped up with breaking up with my bf, trying the friend thing etc until he asked me to go away over night with him and a friend (a beautiful woman I think he was trying to date) So, I talked to this guy about it etc. I even asked the guy if he wanted to come but he said he was in a relationship. I liked that he was honest about his relationship.
Okay, so this week I got a call from that cute guy. He asked how things turned out with my ex. I told him. Then he told me he called because he wants to befriend me. I thought mmmm, I asked him about his relationship. He said their relationship has changed forms, they are now friends. I asked if they live together and he said yes, but they were only roomates until next June when she will move back to her hometown. mmmm, then I asked if they sleep in the same bed. (I know, I’m fearless when it comes to asking the questions) He said yes, but he doesn’t touch her ( I forgot to ask about good ol cuddling). Oh boy, I had a field day with this one, no worries I was very polite about it, after all the guy was being honest and I appreciated that for sure. He told me that his ex (as he called her) is asexual and gave him permission to go find a lover and that he is not a monk, and that he wants a relationship. Then he reminded me that he wants to befriend me. I told him that I was attracted to him and couldn’t see myself just being friends, (I just did this with my ex, EUM who I befriended and ended up in bed with) Oh, he said, he’s attracted to me too, but would want to start as friends. I asked him if the roles were reversed, would he go for this offer? He said yes (proof that he’s EUM). So, I told him that it appears to me that he is afraid of a cold bed, he wants to have the next relationship ready to slide right on in when this one leaves. He didn’t disagree. So, I said, I might want to be his friend when he is done with his relationship. He said he only wants to take me out for tea. Yeah, right. Then he said he will give me a week to think about it and if I decide I want to wait until his relationship is done then he will understand. I said ok, but I know where I stand, no way, no go, imagine all the insecurity I would get to act out by getting involved with him. And I learned that I can’t do friends with men in general, especially not ones I’m attracted to (sometimes even ones I don’t find attractive like my ex!), I end up getting attached to them and creating a relationship, I’m just getting out of one of those messes I created out of my loneliness. He told me that he feels embarrassed, I didn’t say it, but he should feel embarrassed. Anyways, I have been laughing all week….which has helped greatly with NC!
grace
on 16/11/2011 at 8:59 pm
Chloe
madness, stay away. Don’t get sucked into this, no matter how cute he is, or how he looks into your eyes or how honest he is. This is like an advanced phD in EUM-ness. I can feel the crazy from here!
Magnolia
on 16/11/2011 at 10:01 pm
“a cute guy I met in August who seemed emotionally in touch, the kind of guy who looks deeply into your eyes when he talks to you, who knows how to connect.”
I think I knew how this story was going to go the moment I read that! Now when some dude holds my gaze for longer than is normal or comfortable, clearly trying to “connect”, I think: eff off! Maybe, after enough time together that I have decided to be alone with the guy and we’re snuggling on the couch or something, but not when we’ve just met.
I am wise to the predatory eye-lock! I am wise to their jedi-mind tricks! Next time a guy does that to you, picture a thought bubble over his head: “I am trying to make you sleeeeeeepy … so you won’t notice that harem of woooooommmmeeeennnn over there … yes, look into my eeeeeyyyyyeeessss ….”
Leisha
on 17/11/2011 at 12:07 am
LOL Mags!
Ressurection
on 16/11/2011 at 2:09 pm
8 days NC after leaving my MM October 10 after three years.
Thank you so much for your book, Natalie, and thank you to this site and all the people who post here.
It’s difficult because I work with him, but as each day passes I realize how flimsy our relationship truly was. I’m shocked at how it was my whole world for three long years, he promised, said all the right words, asked me to wait.
But then, suddenly, 2.5 years in, something started to change. He started telling me “I understand if you can’t do this anymore. You always ask me to put myself in your shoes and I couldn’t. I couldn’t share you. I could never do this”. So it shifted from him leaving to understanding if I had to leave.
But what happened? What happened to the “If you want me to leave her I’ll go tell her right now” man? The one who “couldn’t live without me”? Who “Do you think I can ever stay with my wife now? After what we have had do you really think I can stay there?”
I recognized the shift… it was a miserable six months. But I woudn’t leave – make it so easy for him by saying “Ok I can’t”. Actually, that’s what I did, but I made him tell me he couldn’t promise me first. I wanted the onus to be on him. Does that make sense?
I started really putting the thumbscrews in. He kept promising me, but something was different.. I really started pushing. Finally I got him to say “I’m sorry, it kills me to say this, but I can’t promise you anymore. I don’t plan on leaving my family or my home. I don’t want to lie anymore.”
I woke up with that text on my phone Monday morning, October 10. Walked straight into his office, put the ring he gave me on his desk and said “I gave you three years to leave her. I’m not giving you anymore.”
I had a setback. A pretty huge one, but it turned out to be a good thing I guess. Friday the 4th. He flip-flopped all day “I like not having to lie” blah blah, but by 10am he was all “let’s get the room” and “I’m already there” and “I’ll pick up some wine at lunchtime”.
So, it was …well disapointing. He was saying all the right things, but I felt like he was lying to ME this time. I felt like I was his wife, and he was faking going through the motions, trying to be nice, whatever. It was all very strange.
I think the thing I learned is that I’m seriously hurting right now, but he can’t fix this pain. It’s unrelated to actually being with him. That’s why Friday just felt so incredibly … empty.
The pain is for what I lost. For what I thought he was, for what I thought we would have together.
If he were to come in here right now and profess his love and say he left her, it’s just unfixable. I don’t know how to describe it. It’s just pain, I guess. Just has to go away on its own.
I still get angry that he got off scot-free – nary a wrinkle in his perfect life. I totally understand why the “other woman” craves telling the wife, though I would never ever do that. I’ve also heard that an unconfessed affair eats away at a marriage like a cancer whether it happened 10 years ago or 1 year ago. Don’t know if that’s true or not. Don’t know if he would cheat again. I think given the opportunity with someone else, he might have another affair now that he’s had one and wasn’t discovered.
Angry, sad, hurt, jealous, still have all those going through me, but the knowing that getting him back will not fix any of those feelings keeps me from going back. Not that he’d even go there again. But that door is shut tight. Would he turn me down? Probably. He likes that he’s Mr Righteous family-man now, that he’s “Not lying to anyone anymore” … who knows how he justifies to himself?
Meanwhile, there is a whole nother world out there I haven’t even explored in the last 3 years of waiting on him. I wanna do it all! LOL
Heartache Amy
on 16/11/2011 at 8:31 pm
Ressurection,
I can relate to you! I, too, just ended a “relationship” (not quite an affair) with a MM, but this only lasted a few months. Even so, I was unbelievably hurt, sad and angry when it ended (he kindly sent me an e-mail, of course – didn’t have the guts to tell me in person or on the phone). So, he’s back to his dysfunctional marriage and 2 kids, scot-free, laughing and joking at church, where I have the pleasure of seeing him every Sunday. Meanwhile, I’ve been struggling with getting over this jerk and also dealing with a divorce. He told me all these wonderful things at the start. My favorite was when he asked me if I had a spare room in my house for when his two boys would spend the weekend! I still feel angry toward him and I can only hope that he gets his just desserts. What goes around comes around (I hope!).
ixnay
on 17/11/2011 at 3:53 am
Resurrection —
I really love this comment and your clarity and courage.
“…but the knowing that getting him back will not fix any of those feelings” — that is right. That is something I just realized myself today.
“I think the thing I learned is that I’m seriously hurting right now, but he can’t fix this pain. It’s unrelated to actually being with him. That’s why Friday just felt so incredibly … empty.
The pain is for what I lost. For what I thought he was, for what I thought we would have together.
If he were to come in here right now and profess his love…. it’s just unfixable.”
I am only now, amazingly, realizing that a “happy ending” can’t erase the wasted time, the confusion, the squandering of my energy and my trust. It’s not about holding a grudge or needing endless atonement. It’s that this is my life, the only one I get. And this person did not value it in his actions. That period of time *is* the relationship. I had this deluded thinking that the relationship was always just about to redeem itself and make all the murkiness a back story. But the murkiness *is* the relationship I had, and at a certain point that’s abusive and beyond redemption. I realized today I don’t trust this man, I am very angry at him, and acting like I’m ecstatic and all loving is a complete lie.
Power to you for getting out at 3 years. I’m at 13. He’s not married and he was my nominal boyfriend. But I only understand now, this year, that I robbed myself in so many ways in persisting to wait until he was the man I wanted him to be. Thirteen years I could have been available for real intimacy, trust, laughter, safety, instead of that horrible trapdoor feeling. I’ve been having these moments lately where I feel like I’m in a horror movie, or a twilight zone episode where the person wakes up and they’re old and all their friends are dead.
Like you, I needed him to say it. Say it is over, say it will never happen, just admit it. And like for you, it has been a recent period of romance and commitment-talk that has been a wake-up call. It does feel hollow. Even the crying apologies that so many women here wish they could get. What good are crying apologies and declarations of love to me except to throw into high relief the horrible behavior I accepted and his belief there’s always a reset button.
Resurrection
on 17/11/2011 at 1:02 pm
Typo in my username up there. Horrid.
ixnay,
Thank you so much for your response. 3 years or 13 years, it is time we say ENOUGH.
All the validation we needed while we were with them, day late and a dollar short now that we are not. You are so right about this!
I see him staring at me in the office, and every time I pass him by and don’t ask “What are you thinking?” “Do you miss me?” “Do you still love me”? a bit of my power and my self worth come back.
It’s truly hard. I still have times where I cry. A LOT.
But I have people around me who know and who are helping me get though this, I also have Nat’s book and this website. He has NOTHING and NOONE. He’s the MM so of course he never told a soul about me. That may be catty, but it’s another source of my strength. For now. Even that bitterness is slowly receding as I get stronger and don’t really give a rat’s ass what he has.
Hang in there, ixnay. This website is always up on my computer at work and I look at it whenever I waver!
Lily
on 16/11/2011 at 3:22 pm
Haha I think that sometimes people use the whole ‘you’re too insecure’ thing as a ploy to get you to NOT question their behaviour and air your concerns and also so you will keep their mouth shut so they can keep doing what they are doing.
Like I knew my ex didn’t love me, I have enough common sense to recognise that. I still questioned him as to whether he did because it suited me better at the time to continue deluding myself and living in a fantasy land. I was desperate for love. He would get so furious when I would ask him questions so I began to feel too intimidated to question him even when his behaviour was remarkably questionable and clearly demonstrated his lack of care and empathy for me.
Insecure seems like such a bad word in relationships. I know a lot of guys are turned off by it and associate it with a woman being ‘needy’ and ‘difficult’ …. so I would imagine a lot of women will try to hide their insecurities so as to not scare away the man but the thing is a lot of shady men will use this ‘insecure’ thing to invalidate their partners feelings and genuine concerns and also to validate their sh**ty carry on.
Lessie
on 16/11/2011 at 4:01 pm
Hello to Natalie and all the lovely ladies,
Natalie, your words here resonated GREATLY with me:
“This is one of the reasons why I keep saying to people not to vomit out their insecurities to partners as a way of generating sympathy and empathy in a ‘Look I told you about all of these insecurities so you can’t hurt me or at least you shouldn’t want to’. The truth is, you would never tell someone all of these things if on some level you didn’t already suspect that the very things you’re insecure about are things that are already present or have the potential to be present in the relationship”…
Wow…SO very true! I was reminded, when reading this, of my tendency to say to others, “People are very protective of me” and I think, in retrospect, I realize now this was my way of saying or rather hoping, that, by alerting others to this fact, that they themselves would not hurt me. I never thought, until reading your words here that, in fact, I was inadvertently creating perhaps the opposite impression in someone.
When my recently separated but EU MM broke up with me this past summer, one of the things he said to me was (regarding a “confession” I had made to him about how, when I was younger, I would, at times, make cuts on myself, self mutilation, something I am not proud of and I have dealt with it now, as an older adult and understand the “whys” of this)…”You scare me” and made gestures to his arms, saying, “I don’t understand the cuttings, it bothers me”…I was stunned that he would bring this up, almost as if to justify his decision to end things with me.
I felt…such betrayal and also much anger too, as in, “How dare you” and yet, I now know that, as you said here, I was, in effect, giving him the blueprints for how to hurt me…yet another very difficult tho very important lesson for me to have learned: Trust is to be earned, not given without much thought and actual visceral proof that it is also DESERVED.
Again, for me, so much of this comes down to being able to trust myself and my own internal instincts which again, correlates to being able to have more self confidence and self esteem. When we recognize our own true inherent value and worthiness, so will others and if they don’t, then, it is their loss and not ours…I have to respect myself first and foremost.
The internal excavation continues 🙂
EllyB
on 16/11/2011 at 5:55 pm
@Lessie: Talking about our insecurities all the time shouldn’t be necessary in a healthy relationship. But if we do this in a relationship with an AC and he takes advantage of it, then it is not our fault!
Frankly, I experienced almost the same. I used to hurt myself (not cutting, but other things). It was almost as if my mother’s voice kept telling me: “Hurt yourself! You are such a horrible, horrible, horrible person that you deserve to be tortured 24/7!!!!”
Her voice inside my head even said “Kill yourself!!!” whenever I was standing on a tower or a high building, or other opportunities to commit suicide presented themselves. Luckily, I didn’t listen to those commands!
Together with my therapist, I figured out that I wasn’t mentally ill because of this (I believed I was), but that I had fully internalized my narcissistic momster. She certainly wanted to see me dead! Her hatred seemed endless.
Makes me want to cry.
Anyway, I made hints about hurting myself and having those weird “suicide voices” in my head to some of my exes, and they used it as a weapon, saying this knowledge made it very difficult for them to deal with me, this knowledge made them suffer so much! As a consequence, I felt guilty, oh so guilty…
Crap.
Magnolia
on 16/11/2011 at 10:34 pm
EllyB and Lessie,
Thanks for these stories – nice to know I’m not alone. In my early twenties I developed an eating disorder, did a bit of cutting, and used to try to draw sympathy from guys about this; it totally attracted the wrong type. By the end of undergrad, I’d had enough ‘wrong types’ to have a new story for new boyfriends – not the eating history, but the bad date history. In any case, both are really stories of self-harm and of really crying out for help. I did think that it would make whoever understand that I had been through a lot; I guess in my way I was begging them not to be mean to me.
Lessie, your ex’s bringing that up is just wack. Totally wack.
I really learned my lesson with the last two bfs, both ACs. I knew by that point not to tell my story to elicit sympathy or pity, but I was still trying to do something by telling my story (as we all are, whenever we tell our stories). I had begun telling the stories as a narrative about strength, as in, yes, I have been through this but look at who I am now. Can you see how strong I must be to have gone through these things, and yet be the person who sits before you?
You’ll probably notice I was trying to convince them, which meant I hadn’t fully convinced me yet.
And so – horror of horrors – when these ACs wanted to get a kick out of taking a swipe at a strong woman, guess what ammo they used? The first AC really was masterful – a fucking master of blade-turning – and I ended up on suicide watch a week after getting away from him. I waited until I had nightmares of the second AC coming after me with a broken wine-bottle ($200 wine bottle of course) to kill me before I shook my head and cleared the fog.
I am not fully there yet. I still carry loads of anger for the years of bs I went through, but I am now also aware that these experiences have made me who I am. I am in the process of re-owning all those hardships, so I can stop broadcasting them because no one ever listened, and really take ownership of my life, and my life story. Like Grace, I won’t be sharing it with anyone else that hasn’t earned it.
runnergirl
on 17/11/2011 at 5:24 am
Hi Lessie, ElleB, and Magnolia,
I’m not sure what to say. I hear you. I’m still struggling with coming to grips with childhood issues too. I learned the hard way too that some stuff cannot be shared with some people, particularly if I am still working through the issue(s) myself. Since the ex-MM and I worked together, he knew I had been married 3 times and asked what happened, via text, of course. I responded with a 6-7 (maybe 10) page email explaining the demise of each marriage, replete with amazing detail in order to show him I was worthy. We called it the story of the 3x’s. 60 days after our affair started, he left on a 10-day 25th anniversay cruise with his wife. When he returned, we went to watch the sunset at the beach and he explained that due my past, he was scared of being 4X. Smack. He is married, on a 10 cruise with his wife, and is scared of being 4X? A master of blade turning. Too many morals and ironies to this story to list and they are all too self-evident now. One thing I learned 60 days into the affair is that I could not trust him. Of course now I recognize that you can never, ever, ever trust a MM because they are liars from the get go. From that day forward for 2 years, I never shared one drop of information about me. Nothing, other than when my daughter got into a University. Never mentioned my father other than he was a lit teacher (rather than a criminal pervert), never mentioned my mother, other than she was deceased (rather than she died of a STD inflicted by my father), 4 siblings, and 5 nieces. He didn’t really much ask or apparently care. Although I knew everything about his father, mother, 4 siblings, 5 nieces and 2 nephews, and 3 children.
I’m not sure where the line is between sharing and too much information, particularly because I opt for being distant and unavailable as a means of self-perservation. Many hugs to you all and I wish us all the best in our journey. No more suicide thoughts. We are not defined through our past or through EUM/AC/MM’s. We are intelligent adults with the power to define our futures, right? Please tell me this is right! Love and hugs.
delta1111
on 16/11/2011 at 5:26 pm
NML
Thank you for the time you invest in our lives, for sharing all your insights,
this had help me understand the dinamics of my emotions and how i persive the human relations. now because of this my daughter (17) is more wise and secure.
TRL
on 16/11/2011 at 10:04 pm
Ressurection,
I’m in the same boat as you. My ex MM is also my coworker. It ended a little over a month ago. We were together for three yrs as well. He promised me the world, that he would leave his wife, we would be together , have a child, he couldn’t wait to spend the rest of our lives together…etc. So of course it was devastating to realize and accept these things were never happening. What has helped me somewhat is to put up an invisible wall around me for my own protection and healing. A boundary that he can’t cross…for once. I only communicate when necessary and work -related. I also blocked his number and confided in a friend at work because secretly living with the pain and torment at work was eating at my soul. So having the support of another coworker made it a little less painful. Also the NC emails help to reinforce!
Resurrection
on 17/11/2011 at 1:10 pm
TRL, thank you for your words.
I, too, confided in somone at work once it was over. She sits right in front of MM’s office, and if I need to go in there, one look at her reminds me to check myself! 🙂
I’m employing many of the tactics you are and it’s working. I’m impatient for it to just get over with, but I know I have to grieve.
Work is all work now. And the NC e-mails truly help me as well!
Lessie
on 16/11/2011 at 10:19 pm
My Dear Elly B,
I had a horrid mother too…truly, I can now even “joke” with a friend of mine that my mom was a “Lady Macbeth” in her own strange way.
This internalizing that I have done for most of my life both saddens and angers me at times because I realize ALL the wasted tears on someone who was SO not worth it in the end, but I didn’t know that then, however, I DO know that now.
With regards what “he” said to me…I was shocked and had a sickening sense in my stomach of “Oh my god, I trusted him”…and there are no words to describe that very visceral “hit” to the gut that you feel when you have that utterly scary and profound realization…it strikes you at the very core of your heart.
I think it was Natasha who said here something about having the moment when you realize that “it” (meaning bad behavior) was NEVER about you, but rather them, and I think she said (I want to give you due props Natasha as I value your words) something about what a great relief it was to realize that “Oh, you mean they would do this with someone else and not just me” because that in itself is such a tremendous epiphany to have, to know that it wasn’t something you said/did/thought/felt but rather, the onus was on them and I think once you are able to accept and really let yourself believe that, then, you can begin to move forward and heal.
Still though, it’s very hard…even now, random thoughts come to me and that sense of seeking validation is extremely difficult to overcome but as Natalie said in one of her NC emails “Why would you want to return to the source of your pain”…why indeed?!
I am sending you many hugs 🙂
Maggie
on 17/11/2011 at 12:22 am
Since breaking up with my ex-AC I’ve started to think that he preys on insecure women. I’ve always had self-esteem issues, and have always felt like the ugly/fat/unattractive/etc. girl, and there he was, this charming, handsome, likeable guy, and he wanted me. It’s like he built up my self-esteem, telling me I was beautiful and attractive, and then he turned around and passive aggressively crushed it by becoming less and less interested in sex and physical intimacy. He didn’t out right tell me I wasn’t pretty enough, but his actions made me start to doubt his attraction to me, which only made me try harder to make him want me, and made me feel horrible about myself. It was such a messed up relationship. And by the end of it, my self-esteem and confidence were destroyed. It’s been almost a year now, and I still struggle to feel like I’m not completely hideous. I’ve been left feeling like I was manipulated and used, and like he picked me specifically because I’m not a stereotypical ‘hot’ girl. That way, I would just be so grateful that somebody like him would want somebody like me that I would just put up with his crap. I just wish he’d never bothered with me in the first place, it would have saved me a lot of hurt.
Aurora
on 17/11/2011 at 2:31 am
Cavewoman- you asked for a story of how truly honest conversations about insecurities look like in a healthy relationship.
I’ve recently entered into something pretty damn healthy. When I start getting close to someone, I get insecure about them leaving. Healthy chats are a two way street, both parties have to have their hearts in the right place, want it to work, be able to look at their own part, and be a little brave. My guy knows that sometimes I like/need/want verbal confirmation that all is well and he’s not going anywhere. I recently went looking for reassurance
from him at a time he wasn’t fully able to calm me. He was dealing with his own anxieties. This of coarse, escalated my unease. He was stressed and mentioned feeling like he always had to be ‘sure’ and strong, and that he doesn’t always feel that way. In turn, I took it to mean he was in some great internal debate over if he wanted to be with me. I got more anxious. Things felt a little tense. I turned to myself, tried to calm myself with self talk- I’m going to be okay regardless – he wasn’t gone yet and if he was going to go.. I can’t control it. I tried to let go a bit. I did worry about freaking him out with my insecurity too but then I actually remembered to shift focus- you need to think about if this
works for you and what will you do if it doesn’t? And where’s the line between me handling myself and me wanting him to help me feel safe?
Reminded myself that I don’t want a relationship if I’m going to be afraid of saying I’m afraid. But I also dont want to put it all on him, especially when he’s not in the right space. Then I remembered his goodness. I tried to trust that if something was wrong, he’d tell me and we’d co-pilot from there. Before he came over last night I decided I wanted to let go and trust him (and ‘us’) enough.. Give him the space to actually show me, or not, that he’s still there. And, he was! Later we talked about it all. I let him know about the process I went through. He said things like… I’m committed to this, I’m not just going to run away. There’s no gurentees on forever (I struggle with this in general) and while the true reality IS that we are still learning about each other and if we ‘work’ he CAN tell me he’s going to include me if there’s a problem, in effort and hopes that we can work it out. He even said some sorries that he wasnt in the right space to provide immediate reassurance. To which I said, don’t be, it was a mix of us both, but we got to learn we can handle these things together (and apart). I think his trust in me and us grows as he watches me work through stuff, let go, and trust him. And we bond more, partly because we see and except that we are both human, yet we do both operate from a place of respect, friendliness, and desire to have both our needs met.
Lessie
on 18/11/2011 at 1:32 am
Magnolia and Runner Girl,
As always, thank you so both so much for your insights and sharing.
Magnolia, yes, I also, in addition to the cuttings when younger, also had an eating disorder as well so I can very much relate. Thank you for saying that my ex was “whack” to say that to me, and yes, he was! And I am sorry for you having to experience a similar situation as well…to “use” anything as an excuse, rather than just admit the truth and thus, make themselves look “bad” is, to me, pretty reprehensible. As a guy friend of mine said to me, “It’s like he came in and dumped all his emotional baggage on YOU rather than admit the real truth to himself about who he was and what he was doing”…very insightful, I think.
Runner Girl, yes, same here, with me…after the initial confession to him about the cuttings when younger, I got the not so subtle message, “I am freaked out by this, I wish you hadn’t told me and please don’t tell me anymore, it makes me uncomfortable”…and hence, yet again, this feeling of, “Having to keep these things to myself” and what a horrible way to feel, and be, in a relationship, that the other person only seems to “want” you when you are happy and upbeat and problem free…and what kind of real relationship is that?! My head is spinning thinking about it all.
I am reminded of the second “Bridget Jones” movie in which Bridget, in a restaurant, has a supposed “friend” come up to her and say ALL the wrong things, in a very apparent attempt to make Bridget feel unsure of herself and her relationship…as she puts it, with each comment this woman makes to her, “One jellyfish sting, two jellyfish stings” and that is rather like how it feels: this “slam” from a man who claims to love and care about you…yuck.
It’s okay to say, “I don’t understand” but NOT okay to then use it as an excuse for bad or uncaring behavior, that is never okay.
Am sending hugs to you both 🙂
I’ve been running Baggage Reclaim since September 2005, and I’ve spent many thousands of hours writing this labour of love. The site has been ad-free the entire time, and it costs hundreds of pounds a month to run it on my own. If what I share here has helped you and you’re in a position to do so, I would love if you could make a donation. Your support is so very much appreciated! Thank you.
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I used to do the going around in circles with this one too. It occurred to me that I didn’t enter into any relationship feeling massively insecure – it was something that grew progressively in response to various code reds/code ambers/code-what-the-hell-are-you-doing-with-this fool-s.
Obviously, I did have some serious self esteem issues going on, because I would have left the building if I didn’t, but I don’t recall meeting any of my exes and thinking, “Oooooh! I’m going to go into overdrive to hold onto this mofo.” It was more that I was concious that I had self esteem issues (though I didn’t realize how bad they were – obviously), did everything in my power to check myself and then….they’d start shifting the goalposts/treating me like I wasn’t good enough/hell, telling me I wasn’t good enough. That’s when I’d go into validation-seeking mode, which says loud and clear, “A, you have issues if you’re not leaving and B, this relationship is all wrong.”
When I realized all of this, I stopped taking responsibility for other people’s behavior. I take full responsibility for staying/doling out umpteen chances, but am I going to own how someone else chose to treat me? That’s a big, whopping hell to the no!
Oooooh! I’m going to go into overdrive to hold onto this mofo.” That’s hilarious Natasha. In other words it wasn’t premeditated. Holding on to a relationship ‘way past it’s due date’ as Natalie says. Thank goodness we’ve recognized our pattern and are learning what we need to do to step out of the dance. So much freedom in that.
Hi Namaste, I agree. We often fear letting go as if it will trap us when it will actually *free* us.
Amen Namaste! It’s very empowering to realize that letting go of people who are no good for us makes space for all kinds of positive things – it’s like, “I’m inviting only good things into my life from now on. Assclowns, please leave the party!”
YES Natasha, Assclowns are no longer welcome to our party.
Natasha…we must have been twins in another life. I see so much of what you have gone through in me and my relationships. I’m slowly realizing how much I need to accept that my self esteem is not at an all time high. I have realized though that I need to accept what was and what is, an once I get there then things will certainly look and feel better.
I for one used to be the type that held others accountable for their behaviors, until my exes used to tell me that they behaved the way they did because of me. Because I wouldn’t put up with their BS and call tgem out on it. You won’t imagine what that even did to further my insecurites as the most horrible and toxic person to ever live and I blamed myself for all that happened in and out of the relationship. Now in therapy I am learning to be responsible for me alone and not an asinine douche bag who’s only claim is getting the chance to tap that ass! BR has def helped with that and hopefully I’m on the righ path to self-love, healthy relationships and serenity in my life.
“I am learning to be responsible for me alone and not an asinine douche bag who’s only claim is getting the chance to tap that ass!”
Karina, My Sister In Assclown Removal, that just made me burst out laughing!! You are so right – they don’t have any claim on our happiness. If they want to blame us for their actions, they can knock themselves out, but we’re not hearing it. I was out with a friend this weekend and her jackass ex is incensed that she got on with her life and got engaged to someone great. He came up to our table and tried to start talking and she just put her hand up and said, “Keep it moving.” I wish I had surreptitiously snapped a picture of his face for us all to enjoy haha!
‘He came up to our table and tried to start talking and she just put her hand up and said, “Keep it moving.” ‘
That is just 17 different shades of awesome. Beautiful. I’m so going to bust that move next time anyone gets in my face about anything.
Isn’t it though?! 🙂 I was like, “I knew I loved you for a reason.” I will be implementing that move as well!
I agree Natasha. Generally, I would behave very self-assured at the start of my relationships, often because it was when I felt most in control. I’d believe I was good enough at the start (even if at a deeper level unknown to myself I didn’t) especially because they all pursued very heavily, often badgering me to be with them. Who wouldn’t feel assured? Until as you say, the goalposts started shifted and then I was like WTF? Even if I’d started to recognise they were a jackass, I’d then become insecure about whether I could keep them or whether my flaws would be found out. Yawn. I love your comments – you always make me laugh!
Awwww thanks Nat! 🙂 Yawn indeed – I think if I ever accidentally encountered another dude like any of my exes, I’d be like, “Sweet saints above are you boring! Show me something out of a playbook all your predecessors didn’t read.” I’m pretty sure they’d just be standing there with their sad little goalpoasts in their hands bleating, “Well…well..you’re insecure! And…and…six years ago this girl dumped me (after I slept with several of her first cousins) and I was devastated! Also, I’m depressed, I need to find myself and I hate my job. That’s why I need to give the sex eye to other women when I’m out on a date with you!”
Natasha,
I basically approached relationships the same way. I worked hard to keep my known self-esteem issues in check by playing it “cool” and not being” too needy”. So the AC/EUM got to test and push me with unhealthy disrespectful behavior, just a little, just enough that I would doubt myself.. and doubt my inner voice telling me I was unhappy. When the relationship was over, pre-BR, I thought: did he figure out I had self-esteem issues (probably on some level yes) and I brought the behavior out of him or DESERVE to be treated that way?! It was a dark place to be.
One of Nat’s previous posts made a huge impact on me… That enabling behavior doesn’t mean you caused it and that you could be the worlds biggest doormat and some people won’t bust your boundaries because it’s just not who they are.
I can see now that it was both of us. My inability to be open with myself and the ex about my self esteem issues actually made it easier for him to be dishonest and manipulative. Calling him on his sh*t would have shown him and myself I wasn’t as “cool” as I wanted to be. So I said very little. Now I know that it’s ok to evaluate a situation and believe your gut. And why would I want to be in a relationship with someone where I know if I’m honest about my fears my partner will use it against me later? That was how I used to be. Now, self-esteem issues or no, a red flag is a red flag.
Thanks for sharing!
Jasmine, I loved your whole comment! So dead-on from start to finish. Learning that other people’s behavior wasn’t down to me to begin with was a huge turning point for me as well! It was like, “Waaaaaaaaait a minute. So, they would have done something equally douchey with someone else? I could have been the most perfect woman that ever did walk the earth and it still wouldn’t have mattered?” Game changer right there!
Spot on Natalie! Reviewing the relationships gives us insight…observing as we “go” through the relationships serves us…and a bit of insecurity doesn’t EVER cause the other party to mistreat us…as you’ve said (paraphrase) that is who THEY are…and our job is to face it and take ourselves…can take a long time…but better whenever than never! Personally I’ve still been reviewing…and the ole” suck it and see” teaches a lot…so…looking back on what I overlooked is essential as well as WHY I did so and the resulting MESS…well, it’s been educational and I know what is mine to own and you have taught me the rest of how to take care of me which enables me to form a true partnership that is co-piloted not horridly off-balanced and confusing…I’ve learned so much…Thank you again!
You’re very welcome Leisha! You are so spot on about it making it “horridly off-balanced and confusing”. Insecurity will have you not knowing your arse from your elbow!
Thank you for this. I am beginning to date again….and still have insecurities from past relationships (major cases of “things not being as they seem” – the tour of EUMs and ACs) and I am working to slay this dragon so I don’t bring the fear and insecurity in my judgment to new situations. Rather than fear, I want to bring eyes that are wide open and observing, and with intuition radar fully engaged, and not immediately jet into dreamland as I did before. Of course, the other half of people not being what they seem is me not being tuned in to who they really were.
In the very beginning of dating there is no pattern of when someone will call, you don’t know how it will go, a million unknowns, and this is all normal…yet a little anxiety producing. Of course it’s unpredictable; it shouldn’t make me insecure. I need to let go, exhale, let it unfold with respect to the other person and to myself. The key may be to have no expectation.
I had briefly dated this fellow before – just went out 3x or so and had a blast with him. Nothing hot and heavy at that point. Imagine that my EUM ran total inference (even though we’d broken up a month before) and seriously wanted to get back together and he’d had a new revelation as to how wonderful I was. I told Guy 2 that I needed to take a break from dating and work some things out in my life. I got back with the EUM again, and he bailed again – surprise, surprise, shortly after I went back, and Guy 2 and I just let things lie. Long story short, we’ve crossed paths again, shared a few brief E mails about what happened before, and left it that we’d go out again – he said he understood. At least now I’d go out with him with a clean table – no other emotional pulls to mess with my head. Not sure if I’ve painted myself as sketchy due to the break I asked for before.
I think I’ll hit up some of your other dating articles, work on the unsent letter to self, etc., to further fortify myself.
Your points are very well taken that there are true causes to be insecure – often a radar that something is not right in a relationship or with someone’s behavior – and a general self-based insecurity like I’m feeling now, with no external cause.
Since finding Baggage Reclaim after the (first) demise of my EUM relationship and living in a mode of depressive WTF…..I am now well on my way to discerning a healthy relationship.
Hi Kay, I think it’s one of those awkward situations that highlight why I say to people to avoid starting something new in the first month or so after a breakup. Why? Because aside from you being highly likely to be in some sort of contact with the ex and ironing out any arrangements, one or both of you may start ‘negotiations’. Guy 2 may or may not understand – I think you’ll only know this by dating him. I don’t think you’re sketchy but I would ensure that you’re done with your ex *before* you go back out with anyone else. I say this because I’ve heard from quite a few readers who keep bailing for the same person. One woman has broken off THREE engagements (I mean there are women that are hankering for just ONE), to go back to a Future Faking ex. THREE. Eek!
I think you can safely get over the insecurity that you’re missing out with your ex and that he’s changed – he hasn’t. Don’t give him another chance to reject the relationship. You don’t want to be with someone who only gets up their relationship erection when you’re with someone else.
Ha, ha, brilliantly stated NML “Get up their relationship erection when you’re with someone else!” Isn’t that the truth. I’ve had this done before. Another friend calls it “cock blocking.”
Good thing is that now I’m totally done with the other guy I tried again with and who bailed again; done from the core of my heart; completed 5 months of NC. PLUS he moved across country. Before, I was too distracted and vulnerable with healing from Guy 1 who I still longed for a bit and also who fucked with my emotions, to be open to Guy 2. So interesting question, Guy 2 just showed up in my life, crossing paths at work….how do you deal with a situation where you meet someone and would like to date them but maybe aren’t ready yet?
It is interesting – now that I want to create a healthy relationship, putting on the brakes in advance is definitely more challenging than galloping off into a sunset of illusion – which has always gotten me into trouble.
My mother tried to talk to me on numerous occasions, as to why I should let go off the ex-EUM. One of the refrains was that “he won’t give you any security and that you would always be insecure”. I used to semi-cringe at that, as if seeking security from someone else (especially a man) was very damning to our sex, because I perceived myself as a self-sufficient, independent woman in this post-feminist era, having equated security with a kind of feminine dependency/neediness in a patriarchal set up. How ironic, that this repression (and arrogance) of “no I’m not insecure, I’m not like other women, I can settle for unconventional arrangements and I don’t need any emotional nourishment”, led me into a situation where I managed to settle for mere crumbs communication, believing I didn’t need anymore. That got me into a prolonged, highly unnecessary romantic entanglement.
Before I discovered Baggage Reclaim, I was on a junk diet of dating websites. One of the mantras that kept appearing again and again, was that Men love independent women who lead their on lives who don’t really make emotional demands (because they want a fun, relaxed time with a date), insecure women are a turn off. All that eclipsed my perspective of the situation- I could put a normal spin on something dysfunctional. Nothing changed for the better anyway, in spite of me playing this independent woman card (a coping strategy for having been honest, expressive, simply myself, with punitive outcomes). I will never be brainwashed by anyone again, who tries to deflect the problem by turning the tables and asking me, “why are you so insecure”. It’s liberating and healthy being ourselves, not to have our emotions congested in a gas chamber, literally gasping for air and wanting to be heard. A truly empathetic, understanding and mature partner would take the time to explore these issues (if the insecurities stemmed from within ourselves), not dismiss us.
Jade…seems that as women we still have a long way to go in this mostly patriarchal society. Caving in to the nonsense men say regarding how they like and want a woman pretty much undermines any value we attribute to our natural feelings, even those of insecurity. We need to learn to trust ourselves more and know when we need to not only reevaluate our priorities, but also to do self examination once in a while as to what it is we need to change in order to become better women and overall better human beings. Like your comment.
Basically, we’ve got to stop making men the centre of the universe. We’re great and strong in our own right. Instead of reading into the bullshit or internalising it, we need to turn away from it and direct our energies and attentions to the people and things that matter. Not all men behave in these ways – trying to change these numpties turning over one rolling stone at a time is back breaking work. We need to stop trying to raise men from the ground up and treating them like their shit doesn’t stink and that they’re super special.
You said it Natalie. I am taking notes!!! All the things you said made me feel that I AM strong, capable, and don’t need a man to be the center of my world. I wasn’t brought up that way but hey, never to late to learn. I am not going to get involved with “fixer uppers” anymore. It is back breaking work, screws with my self esteem (thinking if I can’t fix him or if he won’t change for me then that’s because I am not good enough). Learning about my warped thoughts and how to change them. Thanks for the assistance 🙂
Natalie and JadeSesame,
I love the pic of the woman dipping her toes in the water. The pic, this post, and JadeSesame’s comments reminded me of my Ms. Independent Self-Sufficient (MISS) tendencies Natalie describes in Mr. U and the FBG. I was so god damn filled with self-confidence and so flipping independent, I believed I could dip my toes in the murkiest waters and dip back out when I pleased. Until I drowned. “You’re right to feel insecure after you’ve been back and forth waiting for your married lover to ‘choose’ you and leave their partner.” Of course. However as a MISS, I was hell bent on being self-sufficient and independent, and missed the red flags which should have meant take a parachute and jump. I know this is the opposite of what you are discussing here Natalie and I think I see the difference between sabatoging a healthy relationship with personal insecurities and not recognizing legitimate reasons to be insecure in an unhealthy relationship. I blamed myself for not being able to turn an unhealthy relationship into a healthy one. “Personal security means knowing who you are, having a reasonable level of self-esteem (boundaries, treating yourself with love, care, trust, and respect), and being a whole person instead of someone with a person shaped void to fill.” That is the issue for me, confusing self-confidence with self-esteem. They aren’t the same thing. My self-confidence coupled with zero self-esteem resulted in my failure to recognize when I should have felt insecure and bailed. As a MISS, I didn’t feel insecure even when by all objective facts, I should have. I hope I haven’t strayed off topic. I’m so looking forward to the MISS book. I need to temper my self-confidence with a lot more self-esteem and a dash of wisdom to know the difference.
Hi Runner. Self-confidence is a part of self-esteem because when you’re confident in who you are and your capabilities, and treat and regard yourself as someone who is valuable and worthwhile, your self-esteem will be good. However, being confident at situations that don’t tax you emotionally isn’t quite the same thing. There are many Miss Independent Miss Self-Sufficients who are genuinely confident in many areas of their lives…until you look closely at their relationships, how they feel about themselves, and what they even define as being confident and independent. What you then discover is that sometimes you are *very* independent and self-sufficient because by doing so, it keeps your insecurities about being vulnerable at a distance. As you showed, by overcompensating in these areas, you didn’t have a limit to what you would put up with because you were being ballsy and saying ‘I can handle it!’ A married guy *worked* because you could maintain that distance and independence. Underneath it all, you were stowing your insecurity. Of course you didn’t feel it – you’re used to having everything under control. It was only when it started to feel less like it was under your control and you started acknowledging that you weren’t made of stone and were actually a person with real needs, did the insecurities start creeping in. Of course once they did…he was on borrowed time. It’s like opening pandora’s box.
Yes, yes, yes, Natalie. I’m so grateful for your response because you identified precisely what I’m struggling with, integrating self-confidence with self-esteem. I have situational self -confidence and situational self-esteem. It easier for me to have self-confidence and self- esteem in my professional relationships because those relationships are less risky emotionally. Professional relationships follow a prescribe pattern that I can learn and master. “What you then discover is that sometimes you are *very* independent and self-sufficient because by doing so, it keeps your insecurities about being vulnerable at a distance.” That’s how I’ve compensated for my emotional insecurities by prentending I was made of stone which was the only way I survived childhood. So this jackass is going to end up being my ephipany relationship and opening my Pandora’s Box of feelings and recognition (finally) of my inability to control the uncontrollable. Darn, this is hard to re-learn. But I’m ever so grateful. I’m skipping off to bed, happy that I’m not made of stone. I am vulnerable. I can have needs. Wow! My vulnerability and needs are not necessarily insecurities that doom a relationship, otherwise it wasn’t a relationship in the first place…is this right? You are the greatest Natalie and I agree with Magnolia, you are on fire lately. Love it. I’m digging deeper and deeper with every post.
I tried to be more independent too, in my AC relationship. That just made him complain about feeling alone and that I didn’t care about him. You can’t win, when someone really doesn’t want intimacy.
Brilliant comment JadeSesame. In particular I loved “It’s liberating and healthy being ourselves, not to have our emotions congested in a gas chamber, literally gasping for air and wanting to be heard.”
In my six years of writing this site, I’ve learned that the people who can list of all of the reasons why they’re so independent and ‘secure’ tend to be the most *emotionally* insecure. We don’t need to be strong like bull and I don’t buy any of that BS that these guys put on dating websites because the fact is there is a massive difference between independence and autonomy and being emotionally disconnected so as to avoid responsibility of any kind. They want someone that doesn’t ask questions and if they do, they give themselves license to bail and be jackasses. I remember being asked by one of my last exes whether I was insecure because I wouldn’t let him talk me down and talk complete doo doo. I asked him why he was insecure that he had to make me out to be insecure instead of owning what he’d done. Well…that was the end of that conversation. He actually went into a high pitched squeak he was so angry and slammed down the phone.
You just made me LOL with that awesome visual…I love how you make me laugh…so many brilliant women on here…wow…once the good changes kick in there will be some amazing goings on!
Jade
They don’t love independent women. That just translates as “I want a woman who will sex me up, not expect me to call her, allow me to see other women, doesn’t want to get married, doesn’t want me to commit, will let me do whatever I want, yet will remain faithful to me.”
I don’t see that as independence.
A truly indpendent woman – one who’ll walk if he disrespects her and won’t listen to his BS for one minute – would scare them half to death. (not all men half to death, just these numpty ones)
MISS (closet EUWs) is such a cool acronym.
@runnergirl, really identify with you there. I thought that self-confidence (i.e being socially adept, being aware of one’s skills and abilities) was more or less the same as having good self-esteem. I told myself that if the ex-EUM couldn’t delve into deep, meaningful conversations, that was perfectly OK! I could rely on the goodwill and support of my trusty friends, I didn’t need him, besides “one cannot expect your partner to provide everything you need”. What an absurd spin-doctor I was, creating stories to justify why I should stay in the situation. I felt insecure about being insecure. Played every card I could think of– the independent woman (but responding right away when he said he was lonely, being the attention whore he was), the dutiful woman who’d cook/clean/make love (but not just a boring stereotype), the flirtatious coquette who offered lively, entertaining banter, (but not to the extent of upstaging/overshadowing his intelligence). Everything failed. It was so stressful not being able to be myself, trying to contort, twist, conform to his idea of what I thought he wanted in a partner.
@grace, women who are truly independent and have their self-esteem intact would show the EUM the door. The EUM’s idea of liking “independent” women, is really a code for saying that he will invest minimal, or even zero effort into cultivating a relationship. (an oxymoron, which really means that a relationship is impossible).
@NML,
“They want someone that doesn’t ask questions and if they do, they give themselves license to bail and be jackasses”.
This is sickeningly true. They have this ability to turn tables around and make you look like the aggressive, hysterical, overreacting one. My ex-EUM was a self-aware, unapologetic, unfeeling Narcissist. The deal I got was, “you know what I am about, I’m not about to change and if you want to be with me, then don’t complain or ask for more”. I once actually tried to point out (very gently) to him why his behavior was misleading and why flaking out was hurtful, that my mother said he was “experienced with women”– he actually yawned and told me to keep talking, that my voice was quite soothing and he could fall asleep to it. Unlike your ex-EUM, I never got any demonstration of anger/violence. I feel a lot of belated anger.
grace, another one is ‘down to earth’. That’s why I never even went out on a single date with the guy who asked me out because I “seem down to earth”. I could tell he figured I wouldn’t have high expectations. (He was right! I expected nothing good to come out of that.)
“They don’t love independent women. That just translates as “I want a woman who will sex me up, not expect me to call her, allow me to see other women, doesn’t want to get married, doesn’t want me to commit, will let me do whatever I want, yet will remain faithful to me.””.
Exactly true. Oh and don’t forget, will pay her own way, and I don’t have to pay her for sex, or worry about getting a std. I once asked a guy I knew after seeing him trample the heart of a dear friend of mine why if he if he didn’t want a real relationship with a woman, and just wanted no strings attached sex thing (which was what he told her AFTER they had sex by just treating her like a booty call and played her around for months with all his lies) why he just didn’t get a prostitute and he said,” those girls aren’t very affectionate and I don’t like to have sex with condoms and I don’t want to have to worry about getting an std.” He said it without batting an eye. Talk about emotionally unavailable, or assclown. How on earth do some men get like this??? Scary.
What do you do when you are dating an insecure man. It can be alot of work to give, give and give to someone who feels that they’re not good enough for you. In effect by not giving in return they actually make you feel like you’re not special or worth it. If looks and past relationships are part of this man’s insecurities are you better off just finding someone else, or is it worth talking it over. If your kindness and giving and understanding is actually making him feel insecure it must mean that you’re probably not compatible, a normal person would just be grateful right?
Hey, Miss Solomon,
I’ve been thinking about this from the other direction. I think it’s two sides of the same coin. The overtly needy, insecure guy who professes to be not good enough for you … but you end up feeling you’re not good enough for *him* — not good enough to reassure him, love him right. It’s a kind of withholding, a kind of unavailability. Then there’s the ostensibly self-confident guy, who with little comments and a sort of “show me” holding back lets you know you’re not good enough to win him over — but keep trying, you might be, he’ll be the judge of that.
I’ve been wondering if the latter kind of guy isn’t also deeply insecure. He, too, is looking to be loved out of his defenses, understood and forgiven when he’s a dick, and, unconsciously, also wants his partner to stand up to hm and not let him get away with treating her badly. He can’t face his own emotional needs and the reality of the games he’s playing, so it’s all her fault, she’s falling short and he’ll tell her why. He thus displaces his insecurity onto her. And then she’s “not the woman I fell in love with”; “I thought you were different.” I even had a guy I loved deeply say to me in an aggrieved, victimized way, after he’d pulled the rug from under me sufficiently that I was pretty much a basket case, “Why do I always end up with such weak women!?”
Not to get all Freudian, but both patterns strike me as infantile. One infant-man is crying and whining and a bottomless pit of need. Girlfriend-mommy isn’t good enough to console him, wah wah wah. The other infant-man is having a tantrum and sulking. Girlfriend-mommy isn’t any fun! She can’t roll with the punches and why doesn’t she dress sexier! wah wah wah.
Miss Solomon, this sounds like a rather complicated little situation you have going on here. I’m all for giving someone a boost, but there’s the odd pep talk and reassurance and then there’s allowing someone to stand on your back so you can make them feel taller. It will soon start to hurt. What can you talk over with him? You’re trying to fix and reassure problems you didn’t create. If you sit him down and ask him to tell you why he’s insecure about *this* relationship, what you’ll get back is what he believes is going to happen, not because you’ve done any of these things but because it’s his beliefs. You can tell him until the cows come home – he doesn’t believe it. You are damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Stay and you will emotionally bankrupt yourself, greatly imbalance the relationship AND still not convince him and leave, and he still won’t be convinced and you’ll just be another story. What this tells you is that he’s going to do the same no matter what you do so you need to opt out. It’s not about someone being good or bad – this man is not emotionally ready for a healthy, mutually fulfilling relationship and you are Florencing. If you’re being good to him and it’s increasing his insecurity, he is showing you that he is not able to receive love. You have needs too. It’s not a contest but you have needs too. You don’t need payback but what you do need is to be with a mutual partner – he is not it.
Thanks Natalie you are absolutely right. Your advice is phenomenal but I can see why its so hard to take because it requires action it doesn’t just make you feel good. In fact it almost makes you feel bad because you know the truth, which is typically the opposite of what we would like to believe. He almost certainly isn’t ready to appreciate the kind of love that I’m offering. I constantly have to remind myself that it doesn’t make me any less special or wonderful a person because he doesn’t appreciate me. So sad. Thanks for your incredible insight. Best,
This is really good advice! I love this article! I have dated some jerks and should have believed in myself enough to walk away and have faith that I would find someone good. Who cares how “cute” they were. Being with them made me feel terrible about myself and constantly insecure. I can’t say it was all their fault–I was already insecure (and felt comfortable because, at least with the immature jerks I knew what to expect). But being around jerks who had absolutely no appreciation for me surely didn’t help matters and just kept me stuck in the low-self-esteem web. I’m discovering that I am *allowed* to have boundaries with others, and it feels so empowering! It feels so good to meet a guy and when he makes a rude comment or acts shady, to just tell them to jump off a cliff, rather than making excuses for them or wondering what *I* said or did. What the eff used to be wrong with me?? It was all them, and all I needed to say was, “Goodbye, boring jerk!” Self esteem…what a concept! Should have tried this in my 20s!
Amen Michelle, amen! It’s not about you – you are about you! How freeing!
Its not unusual to question your station in life, especially after a break up. I put so much stock in what someone else thinks or my own perceived personal failures sometimes. After circling that mountain many times i have realized that my mind can be too quick to turn on and dump on itself… then comes the insecurity. Then when i realize that, i try to capture that thought and be my own drill Sargent. “Enough of that mamby pamby wuss talk, Soldierrrr! You are still fabulous not to mention one badass chick!! Now GO, DO and BE more fabulous!”..
Foxy, this comment was hilarious and made me laugh out loud, loudly. You sure do kick some ass!
These posts have helped me tell the difference between being insecure as in a character trait, ie. what people mean when they snipe, “she’s so insecure,” and being insecure in a relationship, meaning not feeling sure about the stability of your union.
I was a way hotter, messier mess ten years ago, that is, I was way more insecure as a person, but I still attracted relationships with male Florences in which I felt solid as a rock about their commitment, and the potential for the relationship to go long term.
I think of this fact when I read Natalie saying that just because you’re insecure doesn’t mean your guy is not (or is) an asshole. I have been insecure with decent guys, and I have been insecure with assclowns. In the first, your boyfriend will say, “Sweetheart, I wish you loved yourself as much I as love you.” In the second, your bf will say, “You are insecure and that is why you overreact when I turn my phone off when I go out with other women.” (Of course, if your bf is a total N mindfucker, he will say both.)
Now that I am gaining more trust in myself, and am more secure in my decisions and in who I am, the options for bfs are: 1 – secure Magnolia with EUM/AC or 2 – secure Magnolia with a decent guy. If I end up in #1, it wouldn’t be for long, because if I’m secure there is no way I’d LET it last. I’m beginning to define security for me as my trust that I can say no to things I don’t want, and make those judgment calls in a timely way.
It felt good, in this last dating attempt, to realize that I had a habit of thinking, oh, it’s me, I’m not confident, I don’t know what I want. I mistakenly verbalized a bit of that to the guy who wanted to see me again, but quickly pulled myself together (within minutes) and said, “I’ll be in touch” and then within a day, had made a decision that I didn’t want to go forward and communicated that.
“Offloading all of your fears and lack of confidence into a relationship is toxic.” Amen. I have been panicked and controlling, irrespective of whether I had drawn a ‘nice’ Florence or a platinum grade AC. I can now tolerate a little bit of ambiguity, and I don’t need to have 100% information – which is impossible anyway – before making a decision about what’s good for me. I’m not that woman anymore!
You’re on fire with your comments Magnolia! “I have been insecure with decent guys, and I have been insecure with assclowns. In the first, your boyfriend will say, “Sweetheart, I wish you loved yourself as much I as love you.” In the second, your bf will say, “You are insecure and that is why you overreact when I turn my phone off when I go out with other women.” (Of course, if your bf is a total N mindfucker, he will say both.)” Spot on!
“I’m beginning to define security for me as my trust that I can say no to things I don’t want, and make those judgment calls in a timely way.” You are most certainly in charge of the Club Magnolia. You don’t have to be or do anything that you don’t want to. You have choices and you’re allowed to make your club exclusive and turn away those that show up shady, or bounce those that don’t play by the rules. Don’t apologise for it – own it.
Thanks for writing this, Natalie
Insecurity in relationships is one of the most common problems I think a lot of women deal with. Insecurity leads to jealousy & a lot of questioning your partner’s love for you (which puts a strain on the relationship already).
Like countless other women, I have insecurity issues. But my issues are caused by INTERNAL beliefs about myself. The best way to defeat insecurities is change your beliefs. With hard work, negative beliefs *can* be changed. When you feel insecure (due to negative beliefs) you essentially feel as if you’re “not good enough.”
How you feel about yourself, the world and people makes up your reality. Change your beliefs by changing your focus. Your focus creates thoughts, your thoughts create your EMOTIONS and your emotions creates how you behave and react to your external world. Begin changing your insecurity with an abundance of self-love. You can banish insecurity when you begin to stop relying on HIM (or her) to make you feel WORTHY of love and everything else you want for yourself.
“You can banish insecurity when you begin to stop relying on HIM (or her) to make you feel WORTHY of love and everything else you want for yourself.” Spot on Mika. We have to make ourselves secure. As women, we have habitually waited around for everything and everyone else to make us feel worthy and secure. This makes life very insecure. When you make yourself worthy and secure, it cannot be stripped away from you at the whim of a person or product.
The fact is, it’s easy to make all but the most evolved (and isolated or abstaining) feel insecure in response to persistent hot-cold, super critical or avoidant behaviour. I too fall for it, the old trick of questioning myself: Maybe my consistency is actually coming across as pressure? Maybe my desire to be admired or praised by my man is a sign of intense and unfair approval-seeking? Maybe when I explain how I feel about things, I am coming across as too judgemental? The truth is, we know what’s up. We know that when our insecurity sirens are sounding, it’s almost certainly not a good sign, and probably time to exit (after Nat’s external v internal check). A lot of this doesn’t require any blaming or shaming of yourself or the other. Some people, because of their own stuff, bring out, or amp up, our insecurities and, usually, we do the same to them. ACs excepted, of course (they make everyone they meet turn nutty).
Like you Natasha, I went into last relationship, pretty open and certainly feeling more solid than I had in a long time. But I still felt hugely stressed and insecure when he started withholding, bottling and then spewing at me, and scaling back the relationship to certain times that suited him. That felt pretty terrible, despite my recent (and ongoing) form!
This is an interesting comment Elle.
“Maybe my consistency is actually coming across as pressure?” It’s not that consistency is pressure but by the same token, consistency and an unavailable person don’t mix so it does inadvertently become pressure.
“Maybe my desire to be admired or praised by my man is a sign of intense and unfair approval-seeking?” I don’t know about intense and unfair but it is seeking validation and probably has more to do with a lack of validation from a male figure such as your father than it does about them. I used to seek approval from everyone because I didn’t in particular get it from my mother. When I stopped looking for or needing her approval (one day I got it and the heavens didn’t open and it was a bit of an anti climax…), my need for approval diminished greatly.
“Maybe when I explain how I feel about things, I am coming across as too judgemental?” Why because you explained how you feel? Unless how you feel becomes a statement of direct judgement on someone, it’s just how you feel. Yes there are ways that we can explain things that don’t place it all on the other person but if we start to view concerns in our relationships as judgements, we might as well quit now.
“A lot of this doesn’t require any blaming or shaming of yourself or the other.” 100% agree. ACs excepted, I think if there is insecurity, blaming or shaming the other person or yourself is a misappropriation of energy that exacerbates the problem.
Thanks for the reply, Natalie. I agree – what you come to represent IS pressure, an unfair request for validation*, and judgement…when….and this is important… you are with an emotionally unavailable control-freak.
My point was that you forget that part, the part that says that you might intend you behaviour to mean one thing, but it will come across as something almost entirely different if the other person does not really want you or a relationship in their lives. But what I do sometimes is focus on the result, the fear and knowledge that I am apparently causing uneasiness in someone’s life, and try then to modify my behaviour. When, in fact, I am missing the part that means that my behaviour – all of it – is being received/interpreted in a pretty warped way, thereby changing my natural behaviour, which then makes me frustrated and less warm. When you focus on the issue of whether you’re creating a situation for them (ie the meaning of your behaviour FOR THEM), you end up completely overlooking their role in their perceptions, and become stuck in a game. It’s time-wasting and can be soul-destroying. Also, sometimes it doesn’t have to be quite so deep and meaningful, sometimes you just have to say that someone didn’t see you as right for them, for whatever reason, which makes them automatically wholly unsuitable for you. I am glad to say that I actually don’t too much mind about that these days.
*As for the approval-seeking, this is something that I need to work on, and, as I do more of the things I love, this becomes far less necessary. However, I am not as good at going for days, then weeks, on end in a relationship without sweet things being said to me. I find I shadow this, and become pretty tough and ‘all business’ (analytical) in the way I talk if there isn’t some consistent tenderness and praise (am talking about small, day-to-day praise, little doggy-biscuits, not an award-ceremony). Anyway, I do know that the release of that need, in a real way, is attached to the likelihood of receiving it (and believing it). So I will push on with that one (outside a relationship)! xx
Elle,
“But what I do sometimes is focus on the result, the fear and knowledge that I am apparently causing uneasiness in someone’s life, and try then to modify my behaviour. When, in fact, I am missing the part that means that my behaviour – all of it – is being received/interpreted in a pretty warped way, thereby changing my natural behaviour, which then makes me frustrated and less warm.”
Yes. Yes. Yes. I have recently been seeing this in myself. Although it isn’t new behavior, I am only now becoming aware of it. I had a conversation with someone last night about my tendency to be too nice and overly concerned about hurting someone’s feelings by telling them they are crossing the line or making me uncomfortable. Instead of just being honest and unapologetic about what isn’t okay with me, I tip toe around it and feel unauthentic so I don’t offend them. I realize that I have fear of confrontation or retaliation for expressing myself or standing up for myself. I feel like I have been punished in the past for being assertive about my needs or about my boundaries. In reality, the people who kicked me harder in the teeth for standing up to them were unhealthy and had no empathy. If things were not on their terms, then any issues were quickly turned around as my fault or as my insecurities. A person who behaves this way isn’t capable or having a healthy relationship or just plain doesn’t want one. I was slightly offended when the person I was talking to said I invited disrespect by not being judgmental enough and too open, and asked me what need in me was being fulfilled by being too lenient and not blunt enough. I realize today that he was on to something. Finding the balance of being open to people but protective of myself is proving to be a challenge. I too have modified by behavior when someone doesn’t like how I feel.
@NML: You are so right. In my early twenties, I started hanging out with a bunch of fairly health people, which was quite news to me, because I hadn’t met many healthy people before.
It was amazing how my “insecurities” suddenly didn’t matter anymore. Those people acted as if they didn’t even notice them! They treated me like a great, charming, skilled person, and that’s what I became whenever I was with them.
Only occasionally they grew impatient with me – and that was whenever I tried to mention my “issues” and to apologize for being such a crappy, messed up, difficult person… They said something like “what?” “I don’t know what you’re talking about” or “does it matter? I don’t think so” and quickly changed the topic.
Back then that made me slightly nervous. I thought: Shouldn’t I be angry with them? Do they care about me at all? How can I ever find out what I always do “wrong”, why I “forced” my mother to abuse me so horribly as a child? How will I ever be able to “change” if they claim I am ok just the way I am???
Now I guess that’s what healthy people do.
Elly
I think they probably just found it awkward or didn’t know what to say. Also, it’s quite taboo to complain about one’s mother. I’ve told a SELECT few about mine – to one friend whose mother kicked her out when she got pregnant, to another whose father pretty much abandoned her, another whose mother who has a personality disorder – actually, a lot of my friends’ have bonkers mothers. It gives you a certain outlook on life!
Most people, though, simply though get it. They think you are whingeing because your mom forgot your birthday or something! I’ve realised, over the years, that not everyone needs to know. Our insecurities are not for everyone to see.
When I had my last counselling session, the counsellor said to me “Thank you for what you have shared here. it’s been a privilege and I learned a lot from you”. I don’t think he was just saying that. Even though it was a crappy experience, there is something precious about it too. I wouldn’t show it to everyone.
You didn’t do anything to make your mother abuse you but I’m sure that you tried to get her to love you. It’s a hard pattern to break, but it can be done.
@Grace: Oh yeah, I had similar experiences whenever I tried to talk about my mother. One thing is odd though: Now that I’ve gained more self-confidence, I rarely mention my mother anymore, but if I do, people seem to be much more understanding than they used to be.
I’m not sure why. Maybe I’m more convincing now. Or maybe I’m just interacting with different (more healthy) people? Or maybe many people were fairly sympathetic even in the past, but I focused on the few AC who claimed my mother didn’t do anything wrong? I think it’s a bit of all of those. I think my last point is particularly important, at least for me. If I blank out people with AC personalities, life suddenly becomes so much easier!
In my comment above, however, I wasn’t referring to this. To those people, I rarely talked about my mother. It was rather like “oh, I did something wrong” (usually some kind of small mistake) for which I apologized like crazy: “Yeah, I know, I’m so complicated and unreliable and don’t seem to get anything right” or “oh yeah, there was always something wrong with me when I even when I was a child” and people just said: “I don’t know what you’re talking about. You seem just fine to me. Now back to other topics”.
I don’t think they avoided the topic because they found it complicated. I believe it’s a rather healthy reaction to this kind of self-blame.
A friend of mine used to say that if we keep attracting the same sort of man/situation, then there is something in us that pre-disposes us to attracting it. She had a bit of a hard liner stance that said “no one can make you feel insecure, only you can make yourself feel insecure”. I think that self-questioning and self-enquiry is very healthy, a sign that we are alive and awake to ourselves, but that tendency can escalate into a convoluted mental-labryinth that we create for ourselves, where decisions/actions end up being stalled, because we always intercept our thoughts with “what ifs”. Was trying for the longest time to ascertain whether or not my insecurities existed a priori, or if it was all induced by the man, or the abstract situation, some mysterious combination of us both. I thought that getting to the bottom of the matter and to determine the truth, would help me to find a solution, but it wasn’t my role to play detective at all. After a while, it ceases to matter. I’ve learnt to trust my feelings and use them as a guide, not write them off with rationality, another theory, a postulation. We can question and think ourselves to death. I was feeling intense emotions but I never really asked myself how I felt, always trying to pre-empt, calculate and anticipate the effect of my words/actions on the other party (whether my approval ratings would go up or down, if I was in the good/bad books). You’re absolutely right, Elle, about how it is time to bail when our insecurity sirens go into overdrive. It’s somewhat inevitable to be haunted by ghosts/shadows from the past, we all have our respective “pain sources” and sore spots, I think recognizing them and according oneself the space to feel whatever nasty feelings that emerge, and then, let it past and see it as being part of the past, might be a possible approach? Please stay in good form!
“But I still felt hugely stressed and insecure when he started withholding, bottling and then spewing at me, and scaling back the relationship to certain times that suited him. That felt pretty terrible, despite my recent (and ongoing) form!”
Elle, I totally know what you mean! The thing of it is, no one is going to feel secure with someone like that. Bad behavior always feels terrible for the person on the receiving end of it. I am so glad you flushed this guy – you are awesome and should be with someone awesome 🙂
ACs love any Insecurity. They play on it and make it even worse. They don’t help by making you even more insecure. Then they dump you abd Blame you for it.
True Fedup, but that said, they cannot play on an insecurity that doesn’t exist. Conversely, if you weren’t insecure, you wouldn’t be with an AC in the first place.
Ohhhh My Fav part of any day,A New post!Its like I am a kid,wondering what I am going to learn today!!
Wow this post is Major to me!!Heres the thing,I have never been secretive about my insecurities,I have always been upfront with the people I have dated,hell I am a walking poster child for this!
What bothers me the most,is that Eums use this against us,Its like driving the Knife in a little deeper..Why?What do they have to gain but making us feel worse about ourselves?What purpose does this serve?
I can remember times when The ex was stressed out from work,having a bipolar moment and generally being an angry asshole,So for him not to call shattered my already insecure heart,Of course,I needed answers,or reassurance,but what I got was beligerrent nasty words…Well that sent me into a tail spin…You know I could deal with being insecure before I met him,but Meeting this person was almost borderline dangerous to me..I am glad we are thru,for now,I am taking the time to work on my issues,and am ready for security,love,care,trust and respect,and not from any man,but from me!!!
Love you all!
Brenda
Hi Brenda. “What bothers me the most,is that Eums use this against us,Its like driving the Knife in a little deeper..Why?What do they have to gain but making us feel worse about ourselves?What purpose does this serve?” This is the same as asking why a thief robs an unlocked car – because they can.
This is one of the reasons why I keep saying to people not to vomit out their insecurities to partners as a way of generating sympathy and empathy in a ‘Look I told you about all of these insecurities so you can’t hurt me or at least you shouldn’t want to’. The truth is, you would never tell someone all of these things if on some level you didn’t already suspect that the very things you’re insecure about are things that are already present or have the potential to be present in the relationship. The fact is, at the time when these insecurities are shared, you do not know this person enough to trust them with such information. You’re also telling them that you have problems that get in the way of you being emotionally secure in the relationship. A decent person might think ‘Give it time’ or ‘This woman is great but she obviously needs to address this stuff on her own first’. Someone who is shady will act like you just gave them the blueprints on how to f*ck you over.
“decent person might think ‘Give it time’ or ‘This woman is great but she obviously needs to address this stuff on her own first’. Someone who is shady will act like you just gave them the blueprints on how to f*ck you over.”
So so so so so true Natalie.
Nat,I knew the errors in myself the minute I reread back what I wrote!And now I have it confirmed!Thank you..
I am taking everyday,everyPost,every story as a tool in which to learn more about me and the things I do or have not done..
The lesson for me today is working on my insecuritie…This will be a hard one as it has been my darkest enemy for so long,starting at a very early age…
I have been making alot of better choices in regards to Men lately,but its alot easier to go on a few dates and not have that attachment,so its no problem to say they are not for me…But If I were to meet someone who def interested me,Today,I know that my shit would come right along with me to sabatoage it..Its time to start rebuilding myself,and doing some HARD WORK!!
Thanks Again Nat and Ladies….
Brenda
I definitely walked out with more insecurities than when I walked in with.
First serious relationship at 21, I sort of just saw people never really got attached even with potentially great boyfriend material. Was attracted to men who were fiercely ambitious and out living their lives. Even dated a marine and an RAF pilot, didnt see them often but found it exciting and never allowed myself to become too attached I knew their game so it was no big deal (EUW perhaps?)
Met the EUM in the last year of university fell for him completely I honestly still think he was the most hansome man I’ll ever meet. Chemistry amazing, silly old me dropped all my defenses opened up completely let him know one of my few insecurities and initially he was great about it made me feel amazing. As time went on he would “joke” about my looks and figure. He would say ‘I like curvy women, but it doesnt mean I dont like you’ ‘you’ve got the body of a boy’ Only joking! ‘Oh look what it says here size 14 is sexy’- As my natural figure is slim and my one only real insecurity was that I didn’t feel curvy and womanly enough. Big mistake as he would play on it. Sex then was only when he wanted it, and when I would say that I wanted more he would say well then be more confident about it then! I would go for it and he would reject me. Several times he did throughout the relationship. I ended up leaving him because it was all about control but now I’m out and its been several months I am scared to meet another man again in case he makes me feel as undesirable as I felt. I definitely internalised his withdrawal and rejection of me through withholding sex and affection. By the end he had brought out all the worst in me and I felt myself becoming needy and dependant. I stayed where my university was to be with him although all my friends had moved home and I left him while I was alone down there, just started a new job and didn’t know anyone. That shows him how ‘needy and suffocating I am’ doesn’t it!!
You have come to the right place to learn so that any more jackasses like your ex will not be able to destroy ANY part of you…read on…you have survived and will only grow wiser and stronger if you address your issues and really learn to love and respect yourself…it affects all aspects of your life and will only assist you…believe it or not we have all experienced versions of your story and it CAN get better but take the time to heal and learn before going back out…you are strong and you can do it.
Thank you so much for your kind words Leisha 🙂
I feel at times like my sexuality’s been taken away from me. My drive and desire for it has dropped significantly since being with him and I don’t know if that’s me putting up a defence.
I read so frequently here about men wanting women for booty calls etc and although that is using and I would not want that either, I feel like being rejected sexually even more damaging. I must remember that the issue was his and not mine and It was all about control, not about me. I must not internalise it and make it any bigger than it is.
Hi First Relationship. At 21, I think you’d be hard pushed to find many people of a similar age in serious relationships. If this was 30-40+ years ago, it would be a different story.
This is an open and shut case of assholery and at 21, I would snatch back your life with both hands and bounce this man – FAST. This is not to patronise you when I say this – you are *young*! Do you have any idea how many of my readers would love to be 21 again with some self-esteem? Because you know what? If you don’t bounce this rodent fast, you will be with variations of this man either for the rest of your life or until you finally have an epiphany. Have the enough moment *now* because he is setting you up to chase affection and attention from assholes who dangle it at you like a dog with a piece of meat. Your chemistry is highly overrated if this is how he’s treating you. Handsome? Yes but ugly behaviour. You cannot go out with his face or his penis. Him and all of his assholic ways come as a package deal. Stay away from this clown and don’t ever let anyone speak to you this way again!
Ha Natalie you’ve just put the biggest smile on my face 😀
I left him about 3 and a half months ago 🙂 He tried to come back on a couple of occasions but I couldn’t allow myself to go back there. In fact I was ‘scared’ to because I knew I wouldn’t have the strength to get out a second time. I was alone down here, didn’t have anyone and still managed to leave him and not go back. I’m starting to begin making friends at work and with the girls I share a new house with…its a slow process but I’m gradually getting a life together.
You are right. At my age I have so much to learn and I am thankful to have found your site!! One thing I know for sure is that I will never let someone treat me that way again…guaranteed
@ First Relationship
I am so sorry to hear about your terrible experience. I too have experienced similar …. at the beginning they idealise you then they gradually start chipping away (those jokes are always serious. My ex boyfriend would ‘joke’ about things like my appearance but there was always a grain of truth. Things as well that he knew I was specifically insecure about. I’ve had saggy t*ts, saggy ass, smelly, crazy, psycho, I dress like a knacker, don’t have as many Facebook friends, don’t put on my nail varnish right …. yes, really, all jokes of course ha, ha, ha .. very funny) at you and withdrawing … it’s all control and all designed at eroding you to the point where you won’t have enough confidence to leave and realise that the biggest joke of all is them.
I have also experienced the sexual rejection thing too. He went from wanting me all of the time to only wanting me on his terms (even once he pulled me off him during it (this destroyed me)). He attributed this to being too tired from work but then joked at one point that maybe he would have sex with me more if I shaved my legs more often lol. Sad thing is I was shaving my legs every second day …. so I started shaving my legs everyday instead.
And still I was ‘too insecure’. Lol.
Never, never again. These men are really pathetic. Well, well done to you for having the strength to leave him. Hugs. xxx
Oh my god Lily! My heart genuinely goes out to you! What an absolute knobber!
Do you know in the oddest way it is such a relief to hear somebody else has had such a similar experience as me. My one would “joke” about shaving as well! I’m sure you must have had the whole ‘turn their back on you’ in bed scenario as well. Oh definitely heard the ‘I’m tired, if you had tried it earlier I would have been in the mood but I’m not now’ excuse! Pathetic. But we do internalise it, we take it as a stab at our femininity and sexuality rather than seeing that they’re obviously not man enough to meet our wants or needs!
Oh I feel the same, even though I would HATE to imagine anyone else in a similar senario to me … it is a relief in a way to know that I’m not a stranger in my experiences.
There is a stronger side to me now though as a result of this experience that is like ‘you know what, how about you shave your legs everyday???’ hahaha. 🙂
How I even let a man speak to this is beyond me. I’m not much older than you are (26).
The turning around in bed thing is the most hardest thing to deal with and I sympathise and empathise so completely. I couldn’t understand how he didn’t want me anymore especially seeing how he pressured me so much for sex in the beginning … I didn’t even want it when we first had it I was just accomodating him. Then he just started not really showing an interest in me sexually like I was some kind of an inconvience to him. I never felt as unsexy and ugly and unworthy in my life as it did when I was with him.
But it is all control. A real man would not be comfortable with a woman that feeling like this about him.
I’m grateful for my experience even though it has shattered my confidence to a certain extent.
It’s teaching me. 🙂
Sorry that you both had to endure such demeaning, cruel remarks from toads. I think that sexual rejection is definitely a great blow to our femininity– we’ve been conditioned to think that men want women for sex, and so when we’re not even wanted as booty calls, it is confusing (“what? you don’t even want me for sex”?) and if we don’t see it objectively, as a problem that has nothing to do with us, that yes it’s a certain breed of men exercising their control in an abusive way– these bastards probably make very very poor sexual partners too, due to a sheer lack of empathy, whatever connection, emotional, mental, physical, will always be impoverished.
@Lily “…it’s all control and all designed at eroding you to the point where you won’t have enough confidence to leave and realise that the biggest joke of all is them.” You have hit the nail on the head with that one!
My exMM often pointed out that I should have a tummy tuck (because *I* would feel better about myself!) and exploited every insecurity I felt about my curvy body. He broke down my confidence to the point where I thought no other man would find me desirable. And poof, he took control because we musn’t have our piece of a** thinkin’ she’s all that and walkin’ out the door!
@First Relationship
Honey, I’m a size 14. See above comment regarding the AC/MM and his suggested tummy tuck. That just illustrates it doesn’t matter what figure type you have…it really is about exploiting our insecurities to maintain their control. Ewww, it now makes my skin crawl (extra tummy and all) that I allowed him to minimize me in that way. Don’t let *anyone* do that. You’re better than that!
Lily, JadeSesame, Blueberry Girl,
Thank you all so much for your advice/comments, you do wonder how on earth you put up with it but when it is disguised in *jokes* and it is gradual it really can somehow creep up on you before you fully realise what they’re doing.
JadeSesame- I think I will agree with you there about poor lovers, even if they start out great (probably to win you over) by the end I felt like I was just being used like a rag doll and although I wanted the sex so badly afterwards I would feel a bit empty. I did believe that I was more confident than most girls my age but now I’ve realised I’m not at all to allow this treatment. Ah well lesson learnt eh! Sending hugs out to all of you 🙂 x
Hah my ex actually ‘joked’ at one point that he didn’t mind if I got ‘fat’ while he was away (for work for a few months) because then no other man would find me attractive (haha … as if my looks would be the only attribute a man would find attractive in me).
I don’t know how this comment didn’t really ring with me. I remember thinking …. “that’s a pretty strange thing to joke about” … but just passed it off as a ‘joke’ like all of his other jokes …..
or the ‘joke’ he made that he ‘almost wouldn’t mind if I got pregnant’ because then he would get to ‘keep’ me … LOL. We were barely dating a month at that stage. Me in my twisted little world thought it was an odd comment but just a joke and actually felt ‘flattered’ that he wanted to ‘keep’ me when really I should have ran, ran, ran.
Talking about this has actually made me realise how much I’ve grown since.
I often find that insecurity can trap us into difficult situations and if the other person in that relationship is taking advantage, exploiting or exasperating those insecurities it can become very difficult to leave.
I agree completely Lily,
I just don’t want to feel like that again with anyone. You are right it does make it incredibly hard to leave. The night I left my ex he actually turned up at my house topless!! Okay I can laugh at the absolute arrogance of it now but because I was so drawn to him sexually at the time I remember thinking ‘oh god I have to leave that body and that face!’ He definitely used his body and sex as a weapon I can see that now. Thankfully I am not as superficial as I originally thought I could be!
@ First Relationship
Haha that makes me laugh! The audacity … similar thing happened to me (are we twins?) … the last time I saw my ex he was sitting on the ground dropping me off at a bus stop, hadn’t bothered to put a top on, stinking of booze, shedding crocidile tears … It was then I realised ‘This is not what I want for myself’ .. I did not think he was looking sexy at all that day fortunately. It was a pathetic scene. It did hurt me to see him like that but he had left me alone crying on many occassions. I shut off my empathy towards him because he clearly had not an ounce for me.
These experiences serve to teach us about ourselves.
Also I agree entirely on the way these jokes creep up. We are conditioned to find remarks presented in a ‘joke’ format funny and entertaining. I often laughed with him at some of the ‘jokes’ because I didn’t want to be percieved as lacking in humour. Then I stopped laughing at them and started to feel increasingly insecure. The odd time I might ‘joke’ back but that hurt me also not only because he would bite back more viciously but also because I cared about him.
Jokes are supposed to make two people or more laugh on the inside and outside. When one person is frequently on the receiving end of these supposedly humourous remarks it is nothing short of bullying.
“you can be insecure and be with someone who is behaving in ways that will actually make even the most confident of people struggle to have confidence in the relationship”.
Spot on Natalie. If a situation is bad for you and someone is behaving badly it doesn’t matter HOW much confidence you have … it will make you question. The difference between someone with self esteem and someone lacking it however is that a person with self esteem will question the RELATIONSHIP based on the bad behaviour and either address it or preferably leave wheras a person with low self esteem will question THEMSELVES.
Thank you so much for educating me Natalie and all the wonderful people who post here. 🙂
All relationships bring up your insecurities because revealing yourself to another human being makes you vulnerable to have these insecurities exposed. In the worst case scenario these insecurities gets exploited by another person for their own gain ( make themselves feel better and avoid dealing with their crap) leaving you exposed to abuse. Abusers are amazing at reading your needs, play on them, pushing the right buttons to amuse themselves or making some of us you swallow cocaine filled balls on a flight home back from Mexico.
The other person is not there to erase your crap, it’s your job to deal with it. Life is not a fairy tale. Forget the co- dependent songs – I am nothing without your love.
In the best relationships your insecurities are still exposed and integrated but are balanced out by the security and strength the relationship brings.
You can work out your mess in a crap relationship, if you sort yourself out that is.
this is spot on! Wise words I will make a note of
“The other person is not there to erase your crap, it’s your job to deal with it. Life is not a fairy tale. Forget the co- dependent songs – I am nothing without your love.
In the best relationships your insecurities are still exposed and integrated but are balanced out by the security and strength the relationship brings. ” Wow just wow Artemisia.
But what the what now on the cocaine filled balls? Sweet beejesus! That could have killed you!
Natalie,
Thanks,
Sorry, I was being dramatic for effect, ok maybe a little too dramatic lol, the cocaine filled balls is an example of what a man who “ loves you “ can make you do. I never did that, but I did many stupid things in love. I read a story of cocaine mules, women picked on for their vulnerabilities and needs by bottom feeders, and who realized they had been deceived once in jail. It stayed with me.
Jane,
Thanks,
to get to that point, I have kissed many frogs.
@Artemesia: I am right there with you. 🙂 “Forget the co- dependent songs – I am nothing without your love.” Isn’t that the very truth? Recently I was listening to my iPod and some of those “nothing without your love” songs came on. In the past I’d get all nostalgic and sentimental. This time, I had no connection – there was no pull from the song. None. My only thought: we live in a world where unhealthy co-dependency is glorified and I blame Tammy Wynette. 😉 Lol.
You’re so on target with the idea that insecurites are still exposed in relationships, but the good ones, the healthy ones, integrate and balance them. Brilliant. It is absolutely true. And it all goes back to cultivating self-esteem. Fundamental stuff. The line between being imperfect (which we all are and always will be) and plain assholery is large and distinct. Self-esteem is what separates the women and men that see the line, and those that don’t.
Great comment, Artemisia. I used to languish and wallow in romantic poetry about unhappy love– it didn’t help at all.
I think we can work out our mess AFTER a crap relationship too, start self-discovery, healing, growth and if we all keep this perspective in mind, then we won’t think of ourselves as having been losers in love, not having lost at all but on the contrary!
Yes Artemesia, ideally you can reveal your insecurities so they understand you on a deeper level, but you are not asking them to fix it. I once revealed after a being with someone for a couple of years that when I was younger I had struggled with mild hypochondria but that I had come a long way by understanding what I really feared, ect. I wasn’t telling him because I wanted him to fix me, it was just something I’d dealt with years ago, a part of my personal history. He was the first person I had ever told outside of family. Months later, as he broke up with me he threw it in my face as an example of how worry too much about things. I mean really, I didn’t expect him to come and save me from my fears, but I didn’t expect him to weaponize it either 🙂
Snh, JadeSesame, Jasmine
One of my favourite love song is this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpDQJnI4OhU
When I found that the guy I was in love was sleeping about, and while I was detoxing I listened to
Carrie Underwood : Cowboy Casanova – sums up bad-boys
Before he cheats
Any Pink all on a loop. And Maroon 5 because I was a gym bunny to vent my anger.
We all have our insecurities, sometimes what attracts us to the other person is the thing that will bug us down the line or what will be thrown in a fight or a breakup. In Jungian psychology, it’s the shadow- self, it’s the part of ourselves that we hide or try to disown because of shame or fear that we point out in the other person. Your insecurities will reveal themselves, we can’t trap them in, they are part of us, make our character – good or bad . What can make us great is working on them and rising above them. One of my closest friend is a control freak, sometimes it bugs me and throw it in his face and sometimes makes light of it. He bugs me about my chronic mess making, sometimes it hurts, sometimes it makes me laugh. When we are the kindest on our weakness and insecurities, then in return we can be kind on those of another person.
I really believe even crap relationships teach us something. We embark in them replaying family dynamic, bad ones and all, hoping for a better outcome. Maybe I have read too much Dr. John Gottman or Pat Love, who co- wrote How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About. In my last bad relationship, he bugged me so much by being heartless and self-preserving that when he told me how he really felt I was way too angry and frustrated to listen properly. It was too late, despite the fact that we loved each other. In the end, I was alone with my failures having learned what I needed from a relationship and he was in a comfy relationship where he replayed his parent’s marriage too chicken- shit to escape. With what I know now, I could see that I was not brave enough to quit it early on and dragged it long past it sell by date. It was painful, but it taught me tons. I accept my insecurities, I try to be brave every day and it’s the only way not to be ruled by them.
Thank you for this entry – I feel like I am learning how to be again!
The key issue for me here is that you can be insecure but to recognise where your insecurity comes from. Its like Nat says – you can be insecure but if you are in a relationship where you are getting messed about and abused then its not surprising – what you have to do is recognise that its not all you and get out.
And you can be insecure but if you are in a relationship that is supporting you and nurturing you then you have to do the work to overcome those insecurities or it might become a self fulfilling prophecy.
This rings home for me so much. My marriage I was constantly being told I wasn’t good enough- verbally and non verbally, I wasn’t respected, it wasn’t a co-piloted relationship and I took it all on as being my fault – like Nat says we can be insecure but most loving, healthy people will support us in a relationship not play on those insecurities. My ex used my insecurities and some! Told me some awful things and I let him! My responsibility was to have got out when it all started happening.
I am beginning to see things so much more clearly. I have been out of a relationship now for 5 months for the first time in 20 years! It has been hard but finally I am at a place where I can genuinely say I don’t want someone just yet as I am busy working on me.
So now my responsibility is to work on my insecurities so I don’t bring a suitcase of them to my next relationship and to know when I am being AC’d and get out quicker. Thank you Natalie and everyone here
I feel like I have been waiting for this post.
For the last few months I have been getting to know a really lovely guy who I am now in a relationship with. He is really dependable and loving, and we share values and attitudes, I have never felt this secure in a relationship – So much so that scares the crap out of me. So now I am feeling insecure about the fact that I feel secure… I mean, seriously, How dumb is that?!
Thankfully I have managed to get back in touch with reality often enough to realise that it is my lack of self esteem that drives these feelings and not my boyfriend or our relationship, and its something I need to work on and not something I can demand from him.
Thanks Natalie for the kick up the bum! 🙂
Laura
I know what you’re feeling. We are not used to feeling secure..it feels almost…scary. I think it’s because we keep expecting the other shoe to drop. “It’s never been this good before..there is no WAY this will last . SOMETHINGs gonna happen! Something always happens!” At least that’s how it feels to me.
How do you do it? I was struggling with this exact thing this weekend. I thought my insecurities caused the failure of my relationship but when a person lies, dripfeeds or engages in shady behavior it’s difficult to trust them. This causes doubts that feel like insecurity. And of course a man who doesn’t want to admit responsibility for anything will accuse you of being insecure.
Thank you a million times for helping me gain some clarity on this.
Oh wow Natalie this is very very relevant to me and I’m delighted you have touched on it. Thank you.
I have never been massively massively insecure in relationships. My last one was a seven year one with a really nice man (we drifted apart) and never did I feel the need to question him, I trusted him implicitly.
In my last relationship I felt very very insecure right from the beginning. There was just something about him that didn’t seem honourable or trustworthy but I was desperate for love. He told me he loved me within days of meeting me (he was pressuring me intensely for sex and funnily told me he loved me for the first time the night after I told him I wouldn’t sleep with him until he loved me … DUH ..stupid me 🙁 ). He did many things that would make ANY girl feel insecure. For example would insult my appearance in the guise of a joke or other things about me. I knew he didn’t love me based on his actions (he was just talking out of his bum really) but I would still question him and his feelings for me. HE HATED THIS and would get very angry at me for being ‘too insecure’ and not having faith in him … it felt like one big mindf**k because I had very legitimate reasons to feel the way I did.
We went long distance for a while and I would be lucky to get one text a day or if I was really lucky he’d text me at one or two in the morning asking me to call him which I always did eagerly. When I questioned him on the sporadic contact he told me it was because ‘I was too insecure’ and that he was ‘busy’. My heart was broken with it. I don’t know how he even thought the situation would improve by not contacting me in a long distance relationship. It didn’t seem fair.
I started to get very insecure about being insecure and tried as much as I could to keep my feelings to myself even when he acted very inappropriately.
I’m glad to be out of it and gradually am regaining confidence in myself. Has anyone here been through something like this?
Man oh man Lily, have I been through something similar. Being told it’s my insecurity, not something he can ‘help me with’ and to get ‘thicker skin’ and when I stopped sharing those painful feelings, but the dubious behavior recurred, being subtly reminded that he’s ‘so glad I’m not like them’ (meaning the other women, ya know the insecure ones that he’s left behind in the dust) and that he’d be singing ‘Don’t let the door hit ya’ to *them* of course, but I’m not like them, right? Yes I’ve been there and when it was happening I refused to believe it was happening, because honestly I could not bear to fully feel the humiliation.
Hi, I’ve been reading this site for a few months and found it to be so useful and a massive reality check. I’d really appreciate a bit of insight into my situation. It’s so hard to boil down the relationship to one post but I’ll give it a shot.
I met my current bf when I’d been single for nearly 4 years after a really terrible break up and felt I’d left behind all that pain and was so ready for someone to share my life with. 3 weeks in he told me he had a son (previously said he was his nephew) and that the reason I hadn’t been able to come to his house was that he lives with his ex for financial reasons but he’d move out now he’s met me. The son wasn’t the end of the world for me but I was really unhappy he’d lied. I went on to uncover he’d also lied about having facebook, eventually he said it was because the ex could take him to court and take half his money if she got upset and he was having things put into a trust, then our relationship could be normal.
I know what your thinking, why did i even bother to pursue this relationship when everything was so bad from the outset? I guess I saw so much potential, big mistake to fall for someones potential, I see that now!
Anyway, the crux of my problem is that 4 months on and he still lives with her and even though I actually do believe (90% of the time anyway) they aren’t in a realtionship I am still getting the crumbs, brushoffs and excuses as if he were. I’ve started to notice really self-destructive habits coming back into my life that i thought I’d left behind and that’s whats made me realise i need to do something about it but it’s so hard and he always makes me believe the solution is just around the corner. This site is helping so much but i can’t seem to make the break yet.
Hi eyeswideshut,
It sounds as though you are actually pretty clear on the situation you have entered into. The lies are enough to say no way, the living with the ex is more than enough to say no thanks. Your task now is to extricate yourself. You can worry about asking yourself why you allowed yourself to get involved with such a non-starter once you are out of the pseudo-relationship, get your head clear, and start refocusing on you. The fact that old bad behaviours are resurfacing, and that hanging with this guy is undoing hard work that you have done on you, should be a big wake-up! A guy should be value-added, not dragging you down lower than where you were without him!
Mags,Spot on! Eyes: time to get the fire out of that…choose your hard (I love that phrase!)
eyes…
I really feel for you. And the thing is, they are in a relationship. They are parents and they live together. And the fact that he concealed that from you during the heady initial romance, and the fact he associates lying about fb to not wanting her to see your connection and get upset (the whole money/trust fund thing sounds fishy to me; the point is she’d get upset, he doesn’t want her to know) — well, he hasn’t told her he’s dating you. Which means he is either still preserving that relationship and you are an in-the-dark OW, or he is in a huge mess of pending custody and assets division that has not even started to get ugly.
He dripfed you the truth, and now he’s doing brushoffs and excuses. He’s not available, physically or emotionally.
You didn’t choose this situation and it is unfair. The “solution around the corner” ploy could possibly keep you in limbo for *years.*
And it’s not about the outcome; you might think you “win” if he leaves, and then the fairy tale starts. The relationship exists in the *now.* And now it sucks for you. And the longer it sucks for you like this, the less you have an actual both-feet-in relationship, the more skewed the dynamic (his excuses, your “pressure,” your trying to be understanding, your suppressed anger). Until it really doesn’t matter if he leaves, because there is no payoff that makes up for the way he is wasting your time and love *now.*
It’s only been 4 months. Get out before it’s 4 years. And actually, a clean break gives the best chance of him taking authentic action to deal with his existing relationship. But by then, I hope, you would not want him. He lied to you. He engaged you emotionally without cleaning up his sh*t. And now it’s yours. And he’s willing to keep on doing it as long as you let him. What kind of partner is that? What kind of father denies he has a kid in order to date?
I am really sorry. You deserve way way better.
eyes
hee, my abusive ex did the same thing. Months in he tells me he has a son. Then his ex is “crazy” (yawn). Then he can’t see me because he’s helping his ex move . Then she’s screwing him over financially.
Was he in a relationship with her at the time? I don’t think so but just because he isn’t putting his thing in her thing, it doesn’t make him free. Or a decent person.
NML: “…as if ‘love’ fixes everything.”
There are so many myths and fairy tales about what love is allegedly able to fix and overcome that a compilation would be due. I bought into many bad ideas about “love”. For me it began with wanting to fix my unhappy Mum… Time to get clear what love is and what love was never meant to be.
I start reminding me that:
Love is a feeling AND action.
Love is not a remedy. You cannot love away negative character traits, addictions or other deficiencies.
My love is not their love.
Loving someone doesn’t mean the other person owes reciprocation.
Love is not pain. Pain is not noble love.
In the name of love sometimes very unlovable acts are done.
Don’t mix up romantic love with real love.
To be continued…
NML, again I am very grateful for your definitions as they provide a framework to refer to in wobbly moments. They are like beacons to me to never lose sight of healthy coasts while steering my life boat. Thanks.
PS.: Love the picture, good to memorize.
You wouldn’t chance more than a toe if you felt toxic, acid (relationship) waters. – Or would anyone like with gritted teeth to acclimatise as far as to take a swim and beyond to stay? ;D
I wasn’t insecure until I filleted myself in a semi-relationship with an EUAC. I’m in my 40’s and I’ve never experienced anything like this person before. I still cannot imagine being in a relationship. A real one.
The same jaw-dropping behavior that jerk smeared on me is all over this blog in every post and comment. Makes me wonder what is becoming of relationships in the world. No phone calls – texting and IMing – posting on FB … Forget FT (FACE TIME) What the heck is that?
Okay, sorry for the rant.
*sigh* I know one day I will return to the confident and happy person I was before I became involved with him … just wish it wouldn’t take so fn long.
Hello Natalie and readers,
my name is Cavewoman and I am a validate-aholic. Luckily (?!) I am insecure enough that I feel quite secure in my insecurity. I wish I could laugh at this, I hope I will some day: whenever my old boss deigned to talk to me, I’d get so discombobulated that I used to say exactly the wrong thing most of the time. By the time I opened my mouth I was terrified of sounding once again like an idiot. And yes, all the while I wondered if it’s me or my boss. When we got ‘reorganized’ and got a new manager, comparing the old with the new I saw how aloof, prickly, and passive aggressive my old manager had been towards me. Consistently. Someone here said there are sharks out there that can sniff out desperation blood from a mile away – and just as sure there are also sharks sniffing out insecurity blood!
The parallels between this post and the previous one on stress is very enlightening. Not only did I have stress normalized, I’d managed to make a virtue out of normalizing it (sticking it out in tough situations -ouch). Insecurity normalizes insecurity. I normalized being poorly managed thinking that maybe other colleagues had earned my manager’s kindness and an encouraging word once in a while, but not I, until I’ve proven myself. Truth is, I was dealing with a bitterly passive aggressive situation and blaming myself for not being able to magically fix it by invoking compassion with my jedi mind tricks. (Never mind addressing the situation, I do recognize that passive aggressive people would never admit to mistreating you by definition.) Just like trying to squeeze a relationship out of an EU person.
Within EU-ships, the painful turning point is precisely when the validation high wears off for the first time… try protesting disrespect and your co-EU person helpfully informs you that you are insecure and that is your problem, not theirs. The mind-effery is that if you are indeed insecure, you get defensive and don’t notice they changed the topic and took the focus off the assholery in question. I’ve had this happen to me word for word.
Can someone — Natalie? perhaps please share actual stories of how truly honest conversations about insecurities look like in a healthy relationship? Responses that are actually helpful? What’s it like when the other person maintains boundaries while remaining supportive? How does the dialogue go?
I’d like to add a third vibe to the set of vibes that we can too easily normalize: a) stress, 2) insecurity, 3) negativity.
Your question, Cave, got me thinking. My insecurities often manifest as negativity: ie. statements where I say, “I’m not successful enough.” “I’m not pretty enough.” “My butt isn’t firm enough.” Whatever.
I grew up surrounded by and gravitating to people who wanted to bitch with me. As in, me: “I am so fat, ugh …” Them: “I know, I totally have to get to the gym.” “I’m so lazy, I haven’t been in weeks.” “Yeah, me too. We really should ….” Etc. etc.
Healthy people might hear: “I am so fat, ugh.” And they might, to a young woman, who they are parenting or mentoring, say, “Don’t speak about yourself that way, sweetie. If you’re frustrated, what can we do about it?” But to another adult, they might not even pick up the ball. You can kind of tell when someone is seeking validation and healthy people know it’s pointless to try to give it to someone from the outside.
I know that one of my good friends would have to tread VERY lightly with me to try to talk to me about insecurity.
Who are you imagining this conversation happening with? A boyfriend? I have been there, imagining that my boyfriend would provide the kind of support that my parents should have when I was younger, giving me pep talks and gently steering me away from self-doubt. But that’s not the job of a boyfriend. If he does take that parental/one-up role, and you begin to depend on it, it’s not healthy (case in point, my first two LTRs).
Unfortunately, when it comes to dating, I imagine that the conversation with a healthy person, if there had to be a conversation, would go like this: “Honey, I can’t give you self-confidence around X. You know I believe in you; you know I think you’re attractive; you’re great. I hope you begin to believe in yourself soon because I don’t want to be asked to keep telling you what you won’t believe anyway.” If it’s early enough on, I think a healthy person would back off from too much insecurity/stress/negativity displayed early on.
I say this as someone who still apologizes for my lack of social skills when I meet new people (working on that! whispers to self, I am socially competent, I am liked just fine, I like myself…). I’ll be interested to hear what others say.
cavewoman
If we are insecure in a relationship, there may be a good reason. If he’s married (not to you), abusing you, disappearing, you’re going to feel insecure.! I don’t think talking will help. It just gives you the illusion that you are addressing the issue – all that’s happening is that words are coming out of your mouth and he’s ignoring them or, worse, using them against you.
If we are insecure in a relationship and there is no good reason, I think it’s best not to “talk it out”. I don’t think most men have the stamina for that kind of psychoanalysis. I was friends with a man who DID have time for it. We’d spend hours chewing it over and all we were doing was digging a big pit of insecurity and then jumping into it. That insecurity comes within ourselves and we need to address it ourselves, ideally we addressed before we went into the relationship. This man is not the previous man and I expect it would get old very quickly having to keep proving it.
It may be worth discussing something concrete, such as “Who was that woman I saw you yesterday?” or “Why are you fifty minutes late? or “Please, for the love of God, tell me I look nice every now and then and remember our flippin anniversary!”
I’ve been in a couple of relationships with really good men. The latest one (1999, sheesh) happened when I was reeling in heartbreak. Anyhow, he was crazy about me and I couldn’t figure out why because I was a mess. I couldn’t even deal with opening my mail; I just zoned in front of the tv. And I had no energy for kick-starting my life; I needed a job, a social life, but I was living on savings and self-isolating.
So I tell this guy things like “I have nothing to give you; I can’t cook, I’m not glamorous, all I do is watch tv.” And he says things like, “You give more than you know. You have a gentle energy and a kindness, that’s what really counts.” And, “Well, there’s watching tv and then there’s watching tv. You’re really doing something else, the tv just happens to be on.” And when I was upset that he paid for all our trips and I felt like a user, he said, “You add so much more than money to the experience, I feel like I’m incredibly lucky to share things with you.”
Compare this with recent guy. “Learn to effing cook!” “You know you’re just mainlining corporate propaganda, effing wasting your life in front of the tv?” “You don’t have any friends; you’ve just decided to get old.”
The first guy was very available. I wasn’t. So it’s not a “pure” case of dealing with insecurities within a committed relationship because I was not only expressing insecurity; I was also warning him not to expect too much. It was scary for me that he accepted me just as I was, and I didn’t want to take advantage or turn hm into a Florence. I always felt this gut-level guilt that I was on some level using him and his kindness and somehow the karma scales would get me. At a distance of a decade, I think he wasn’t just a patsy; I think he was a decent, self-aware guy who genuinely believed I had a lot to offer. I just couldn’t.
I’ve been thinking about him a lot as I’ve gone NC with his successor. The latter guy keeps reaching out to me in nostalgic-romantic ways that get my hopes up, and then, once assured I am here for him, fades away. I now realize I did that with the first guy. I would call him when things were rocky with the second guy, just to be calmed by his voice and perspective. And he would say, “Are you still with that guy?” And I’d say, “um, yeah.” And he’d go quiet. And then he cut off contact. Last year I tried to fb friend him and he never accepted. It’s only now, being on the other side of the dynamic, that I understand how hard it must have been for him to cut contact, how he had to protect himself, and how inappropriate sending a fb invite was. I want to tell him, “I understand now what I did to you.”
ixnay
I identify with what you say here. Don’t take the FB to heart – I’ve not accepted friend requests because I think “let sleeping dogs lie”. It’s not that I hate the other person or disapprove of them. Chances are very good that he’s moved on and like many decent people has decided that it wouldn’t work to be friends with an ex. He could even be married.
we’ve all made mistakes and many of us have been EU in relationships. and been on the receiving end of it. It’s how it goes until we learn and then the right person will come at the right time.
In my last two dating experiences the same thing happened. The shadow of their last girl friend began to appear. At first I thought I was being insecure by worrying whether or not they would go back to her; however, I was not. I was not insecure- I was right! They both fell off the face of the planet without explanation likely to go back to their ex. In my case my insecurity was really a gut “feeling” telling me what was up. It’s difficult to tell the difference until you have hindsight.
Hayley Rose (beautiful name, btw!), it’s possible that they went back with their exes, but it’s equally possible that they disappeared because you started expecting things from them and, since they weren’t emotionally available, they did the Houdini. I completely agree that the yucky insecure feeling is often a warning. After they’ve disappeared you realize that there were things going on that said “Hmmmm, something’s not right here!” and that’s why you had that gut feeling. You’re well rid of both of these guys – onwards and upwards! 🙂
This could have been written for me today! A ‘quagmire’ is the perfect description of how this vicious circle of insecurity feels. Following recently being dumped, I am wondering whether my general insecurity ruined a potentially good relationship, or whether I felt insecure because of the way the relationship was. Perhaps it was a two-way street.
During the first few months of our relationship I had a massive guard up because I find it quite hard to be vulnerable with someone. I also did have a few doubts about him, but insecurity meant I didn’t want to let go (and I was ridiculously more concerned with how he was feeling than how I was feeling!) We trundled along reasonably contented for another year, but looking back I know he wasn’t totally into me and he began more obviously losing interest. So, did I then take the sensible option and get out of there? Of course not! My insecurity kicked me into desperately trying to keep him into me eg. spending days on end looking for perfect presents for him, and perfect trips away. All the while he was just passing time with me until he met someone else. Who unfortunately happens to be more stunning, thin, tanned and artistic than me. Great. Hello further insecurity. I’m now left feeling that I wasn’t interesting/ fun/ attractive enough.
It’s really hard when you’ve had a lifelong feeling of insecurity, because this makes it nearly impossible to shake yourself into feeling positive about the future. It also makes it impossible to judge how you really feel – is this me being my usual weird self, or is this genuinely not right? It’s so frustrating.
Damn!! I LOVE Baggage Reclaim! My only wish was that I’d found this site right after I broke up with my ex. Oh well, better late than never 🙂
I had considered myself to be pretty insecure until I met my soon-to-be ex-husband. We’ve been married for 11 years and while I felt some insecurity from time to time during our marriage (it probably didn’t help that he was verbally and emotionally abusive and would frequently put me down), I felt like I was coming into my own. But last October, he told me he didn’t want to be married and a year later, we’re finally starting divorce proceedings. It’s been a horrible year. Meanwhile, over the summer, I made the BIG mistake of becoming involved with an insecure, EU married man. I know, what was I thinking? At the time, he made me feel desirable, beautiful, etc. Of course, it ended…leaving me feeling hurt all over again, and yes, insecure again. I know I have to work on myself, but I don’t feel like I have what it takes to meet a “nice”, “normal” guy, probably because I don’t know what it’s like. And given my age, I’ll probably have to resort to internet dating sites to meet someone which is about as appealing as wallowing in the mud!
Amy
I met someone at church who had been married to a man who didn’t like to have sex with her (though they did manage to have kids), was controlling and even physically violent. Turned out he was homosexual. They got divorced.
She met someone else (a widow) through church. Widower eventually asked her out. She gave him a big spiel on “I’ve got my life in order. I don’t do dates. I don’t go out with men!” (reminded me of myself) So the man says “okay, let’s just go out as friends”. Long and short of it, they are now married.
She met him in her 50s.
As Magnolia comments above, we can normalise negativity – men are this, men are that, women are this and that, too old, relationships are hard, all the good men are gone … blah blah blah.
How much of it is actually true and how much of it is of our own making?
grace,
I’m sure you’re right. It’s just that right now, I don’t feel too hopeful. I spent 11 years married to a man who was wrong for me, and then this summer, I continued the pattern (with a married man). I just feel discouraged and now that I’m in my mid 40s, it seems a little bleak. But, your story is encouraging and maybe, just maybe, when I’m ready, I’ll meet the proverbial nice guy.
Hi eyeswideshut and all,
Your post seems to fit in nicely with what happened to me this week. I am doing NC and getting better at it, my ex is still emailing me, asking me out, he wants to be friends, no can do, not now. So, I ignore them and go back n forth with this…still need to write the unsent letter. Anyways, I got a call from a cute guy I met in August who seemed emotionally in touch, the kind of guy who looks deeply into your eyes when he talks to you, who knows how to connect. When I met him I was still wrapped up with breaking up with my bf, trying the friend thing etc until he asked me to go away over night with him and a friend (a beautiful woman I think he was trying to date) So, I talked to this guy about it etc. I even asked the guy if he wanted to come but he said he was in a relationship. I liked that he was honest about his relationship.
Okay, so this week I got a call from that cute guy. He asked how things turned out with my ex. I told him. Then he told me he called because he wants to befriend me. I thought mmmm, I asked him about his relationship. He said their relationship has changed forms, they are now friends. I asked if they live together and he said yes, but they were only roomates until next June when she will move back to her hometown. mmmm, then I asked if they sleep in the same bed. (I know, I’m fearless when it comes to asking the questions) He said yes, but he doesn’t touch her ( I forgot to ask about good ol cuddling). Oh boy, I had a field day with this one, no worries I was very polite about it, after all the guy was being honest and I appreciated that for sure. He told me that his ex (as he called her) is asexual and gave him permission to go find a lover and that he is not a monk, and that he wants a relationship. Then he reminded me that he wants to befriend me. I told him that I was attracted to him and couldn’t see myself just being friends, (I just did this with my ex, EUM who I befriended and ended up in bed with) Oh, he said, he’s attracted to me too, but would want to start as friends. I asked him if the roles were reversed, would he go for this offer? He said yes (proof that he’s EUM). So, I told him that it appears to me that he is afraid of a cold bed, he wants to have the next relationship ready to slide right on in when this one leaves. He didn’t disagree. So, I said, I might want to be his friend when he is done with his relationship. He said he only wants to take me out for tea. Yeah, right. Then he said he will give me a week to think about it and if I decide I want to wait until his relationship is done then he will understand. I said ok, but I know where I stand, no way, no go, imagine all the insecurity I would get to act out by getting involved with him. And I learned that I can’t do friends with men in general, especially not ones I’m attracted to (sometimes even ones I don’t find attractive like my ex!), I end up getting attached to them and creating a relationship, I’m just getting out of one of those messes I created out of my loneliness. He told me that he feels embarrassed, I didn’t say it, but he should feel embarrassed. Anyways, I have been laughing all week….which has helped greatly with NC!
Chloe
madness, stay away. Don’t get sucked into this, no matter how cute he is, or how he looks into your eyes or how honest he is. This is like an advanced phD in EUM-ness. I can feel the crazy from here!
“a cute guy I met in August who seemed emotionally in touch, the kind of guy who looks deeply into your eyes when he talks to you, who knows how to connect.”
I think I knew how this story was going to go the moment I read that! Now when some dude holds my gaze for longer than is normal or comfortable, clearly trying to “connect”, I think: eff off! Maybe, after enough time together that I have decided to be alone with the guy and we’re snuggling on the couch or something, but not when we’ve just met.
I am wise to the predatory eye-lock! I am wise to their jedi-mind tricks! Next time a guy does that to you, picture a thought bubble over his head: “I am trying to make you sleeeeeeepy … so you won’t notice that harem of woooooommmmeeeennnn over there … yes, look into my eeeeeyyyyyeeessss ….”
LOL Mags!
8 days NC after leaving my MM October 10 after three years.
Thank you so much for your book, Natalie, and thank you to this site and all the people who post here.
It’s difficult because I work with him, but as each day passes I realize how flimsy our relationship truly was. I’m shocked at how it was my whole world for three long years, he promised, said all the right words, asked me to wait.
But then, suddenly, 2.5 years in, something started to change. He started telling me “I understand if you can’t do this anymore. You always ask me to put myself in your shoes and I couldn’t. I couldn’t share you. I could never do this”. So it shifted from him leaving to understanding if I had to leave.
But what happened? What happened to the “If you want me to leave her I’ll go tell her right now” man? The one who “couldn’t live without me”? Who “Do you think I can ever stay with my wife now? After what we have had do you really think I can stay there?”
I recognized the shift… it was a miserable six months. But I woudn’t leave – make it so easy for him by saying “Ok I can’t”. Actually, that’s what I did, but I made him tell me he couldn’t promise me first. I wanted the onus to be on him. Does that make sense?
I started really putting the thumbscrews in. He kept promising me, but something was different.. I really started pushing. Finally I got him to say “I’m sorry, it kills me to say this, but I can’t promise you anymore. I don’t plan on leaving my family or my home. I don’t want to lie anymore.”
I woke up with that text on my phone Monday morning, October 10. Walked straight into his office, put the ring he gave me on his desk and said “I gave you three years to leave her. I’m not giving you anymore.”
I had a setback. A pretty huge one, but it turned out to be a good thing I guess. Friday the 4th. He flip-flopped all day “I like not having to lie” blah blah, but by 10am he was all “let’s get the room” and “I’m already there” and “I’ll pick up some wine at lunchtime”.
So, it was …well disapointing. He was saying all the right things, but I felt like he was lying to ME this time. I felt like I was his wife, and he was faking going through the motions, trying to be nice, whatever. It was all very strange.
I think the thing I learned is that I’m seriously hurting right now, but he can’t fix this pain. It’s unrelated to actually being with him. That’s why Friday just felt so incredibly … empty.
The pain is for what I lost. For what I thought he was, for what I thought we would have together.
If he were to come in here right now and profess his love and say he left her, it’s just unfixable. I don’t know how to describe it. It’s just pain, I guess. Just has to go away on its own.
I still get angry that he got off scot-free – nary a wrinkle in his perfect life. I totally understand why the “other woman” craves telling the wife, though I would never ever do that. I’ve also heard that an unconfessed affair eats away at a marriage like a cancer whether it happened 10 years ago or 1 year ago. Don’t know if that’s true or not. Don’t know if he would cheat again. I think given the opportunity with someone else, he might have another affair now that he’s had one and wasn’t discovered.
Angry, sad, hurt, jealous, still have all those going through me, but the knowing that getting him back will not fix any of those feelings keeps me from going back. Not that he’d even go there again. But that door is shut tight. Would he turn me down? Probably. He likes that he’s Mr Righteous family-man now, that he’s “Not lying to anyone anymore” … who knows how he justifies to himself?
Meanwhile, there is a whole nother world out there I haven’t even explored in the last 3 years of waiting on him. I wanna do it all! LOL
Ressurection,
I can relate to you! I, too, just ended a “relationship” (not quite an affair) with a MM, but this only lasted a few months. Even so, I was unbelievably hurt, sad and angry when it ended (he kindly sent me an e-mail, of course – didn’t have the guts to tell me in person or on the phone). So, he’s back to his dysfunctional marriage and 2 kids, scot-free, laughing and joking at church, where I have the pleasure of seeing him every Sunday. Meanwhile, I’ve been struggling with getting over this jerk and also dealing with a divorce. He told me all these wonderful things at the start. My favorite was when he asked me if I had a spare room in my house for when his two boys would spend the weekend! I still feel angry toward him and I can only hope that he gets his just desserts. What goes around comes around (I hope!).
Resurrection —
I really love this comment and your clarity and courage.
“…but the knowing that getting him back will not fix any of those feelings” — that is right. That is something I just realized myself today.
“I think the thing I learned is that I’m seriously hurting right now, but he can’t fix this pain. It’s unrelated to actually being with him. That’s why Friday just felt so incredibly … empty.
The pain is for what I lost. For what I thought he was, for what I thought we would have together.
If he were to come in here right now and profess his love…. it’s just unfixable.”
I am only now, amazingly, realizing that a “happy ending” can’t erase the wasted time, the confusion, the squandering of my energy and my trust. It’s not about holding a grudge or needing endless atonement. It’s that this is my life, the only one I get. And this person did not value it in his actions. That period of time *is* the relationship. I had this deluded thinking that the relationship was always just about to redeem itself and make all the murkiness a back story. But the murkiness *is* the relationship I had, and at a certain point that’s abusive and beyond redemption. I realized today I don’t trust this man, I am very angry at him, and acting like I’m ecstatic and all loving is a complete lie.
Power to you for getting out at 3 years. I’m at 13. He’s not married and he was my nominal boyfriend. But I only understand now, this year, that I robbed myself in so many ways in persisting to wait until he was the man I wanted him to be. Thirteen years I could have been available for real intimacy, trust, laughter, safety, instead of that horrible trapdoor feeling. I’ve been having these moments lately where I feel like I’m in a horror movie, or a twilight zone episode where the person wakes up and they’re old and all their friends are dead.
Like you, I needed him to say it. Say it is over, say it will never happen, just admit it. And like for you, it has been a recent period of romance and commitment-talk that has been a wake-up call. It does feel hollow. Even the crying apologies that so many women here wish they could get. What good are crying apologies and declarations of love to me except to throw into high relief the horrible behavior I accepted and his belief there’s always a reset button.
Typo in my username up there. Horrid.
ixnay,
Thank you so much for your response. 3 years or 13 years, it is time we say ENOUGH.
All the validation we needed while we were with them, day late and a dollar short now that we are not. You are so right about this!
I see him staring at me in the office, and every time I pass him by and don’t ask “What are you thinking?” “Do you miss me?” “Do you still love me”? a bit of my power and my self worth come back.
It’s truly hard. I still have times where I cry. A LOT.
But I have people around me who know and who are helping me get though this, I also have Nat’s book and this website. He has NOTHING and NOONE. He’s the MM so of course he never told a soul about me. That may be catty, but it’s another source of my strength. For now. Even that bitterness is slowly receding as I get stronger and don’t really give a rat’s ass what he has.
Hang in there, ixnay. This website is always up on my computer at work and I look at it whenever I waver!
Haha I think that sometimes people use the whole ‘you’re too insecure’ thing as a ploy to get you to NOT question their behaviour and air your concerns and also so you will keep their mouth shut so they can keep doing what they are doing.
Like I knew my ex didn’t love me, I have enough common sense to recognise that. I still questioned him as to whether he did because it suited me better at the time to continue deluding myself and living in a fantasy land. I was desperate for love. He would get so furious when I would ask him questions so I began to feel too intimidated to question him even when his behaviour was remarkably questionable and clearly demonstrated his lack of care and empathy for me.
Insecure seems like such a bad word in relationships. I know a lot of guys are turned off by it and associate it with a woman being ‘needy’ and ‘difficult’ …. so I would imagine a lot of women will try to hide their insecurities so as to not scare away the man but the thing is a lot of shady men will use this ‘insecure’ thing to invalidate their partners feelings and genuine concerns and also to validate their sh**ty carry on.
Hello to Natalie and all the lovely ladies,
Natalie, your words here resonated GREATLY with me:
“This is one of the reasons why I keep saying to people not to vomit out their insecurities to partners as a way of generating sympathy and empathy in a ‘Look I told you about all of these insecurities so you can’t hurt me or at least you shouldn’t want to’. The truth is, you would never tell someone all of these things if on some level you didn’t already suspect that the very things you’re insecure about are things that are already present or have the potential to be present in the relationship”…
Wow…SO very true! I was reminded, when reading this, of my tendency to say to others, “People are very protective of me” and I think, in retrospect, I realize now this was my way of saying or rather hoping, that, by alerting others to this fact, that they themselves would not hurt me. I never thought, until reading your words here that, in fact, I was inadvertently creating perhaps the opposite impression in someone.
When my recently separated but EU MM broke up with me this past summer, one of the things he said to me was (regarding a “confession” I had made to him about how, when I was younger, I would, at times, make cuts on myself, self mutilation, something I am not proud of and I have dealt with it now, as an older adult and understand the “whys” of this)…”You scare me” and made gestures to his arms, saying, “I don’t understand the cuttings, it bothers me”…I was stunned that he would bring this up, almost as if to justify his decision to end things with me.
I felt…such betrayal and also much anger too, as in, “How dare you” and yet, I now know that, as you said here, I was, in effect, giving him the blueprints for how to hurt me…yet another very difficult tho very important lesson for me to have learned: Trust is to be earned, not given without much thought and actual visceral proof that it is also DESERVED.
Again, for me, so much of this comes down to being able to trust myself and my own internal instincts which again, correlates to being able to have more self confidence and self esteem. When we recognize our own true inherent value and worthiness, so will others and if they don’t, then, it is their loss and not ours…I have to respect myself first and foremost.
The internal excavation continues 🙂
@Lessie: Talking about our insecurities all the time shouldn’t be necessary in a healthy relationship. But if we do this in a relationship with an AC and he takes advantage of it, then it is not our fault!
Frankly, I experienced almost the same. I used to hurt myself (not cutting, but other things). It was almost as if my mother’s voice kept telling me: “Hurt yourself! You are such a horrible, horrible, horrible person that you deserve to be tortured 24/7!!!!”
Her voice inside my head even said “Kill yourself!!!” whenever I was standing on a tower or a high building, or other opportunities to commit suicide presented themselves. Luckily, I didn’t listen to those commands!
Together with my therapist, I figured out that I wasn’t mentally ill because of this (I believed I was), but that I had fully internalized my narcissistic momster. She certainly wanted to see me dead! Her hatred seemed endless.
Makes me want to cry.
Anyway, I made hints about hurting myself and having those weird “suicide voices” in my head to some of my exes, and they used it as a weapon, saying this knowledge made it very difficult for them to deal with me, this knowledge made them suffer so much! As a consequence, I felt guilty, oh so guilty…
Crap.
EllyB and Lessie,
Thanks for these stories – nice to know I’m not alone. In my early twenties I developed an eating disorder, did a bit of cutting, and used to try to draw sympathy from guys about this; it totally attracted the wrong type. By the end of undergrad, I’d had enough ‘wrong types’ to have a new story for new boyfriends – not the eating history, but the bad date history. In any case, both are really stories of self-harm and of really crying out for help. I did think that it would make whoever understand that I had been through a lot; I guess in my way I was begging them not to be mean to me.
Lessie, your ex’s bringing that up is just wack. Totally wack.
I really learned my lesson with the last two bfs, both ACs. I knew by that point not to tell my story to elicit sympathy or pity, but I was still trying to do something by telling my story (as we all are, whenever we tell our stories). I had begun telling the stories as a narrative about strength, as in, yes, I have been through this but look at who I am now. Can you see how strong I must be to have gone through these things, and yet be the person who sits before you?
You’ll probably notice I was trying to convince them, which meant I hadn’t fully convinced me yet.
And so – horror of horrors – when these ACs wanted to get a kick out of taking a swipe at a strong woman, guess what ammo they used? The first AC really was masterful – a fucking master of blade-turning – and I ended up on suicide watch a week after getting away from him. I waited until I had nightmares of the second AC coming after me with a broken wine-bottle ($200 wine bottle of course) to kill me before I shook my head and cleared the fog.
I am not fully there yet. I still carry loads of anger for the years of bs I went through, but I am now also aware that these experiences have made me who I am. I am in the process of re-owning all those hardships, so I can stop broadcasting them because no one ever listened, and really take ownership of my life, and my life story. Like Grace, I won’t be sharing it with anyone else that hasn’t earned it.
Hi Lessie, ElleB, and Magnolia,
I’m not sure what to say. I hear you. I’m still struggling with coming to grips with childhood issues too. I learned the hard way too that some stuff cannot be shared with some people, particularly if I am still working through the issue(s) myself. Since the ex-MM and I worked together, he knew I had been married 3 times and asked what happened, via text, of course. I responded with a 6-7 (maybe 10) page email explaining the demise of each marriage, replete with amazing detail in order to show him I was worthy. We called it the story of the 3x’s. 60 days after our affair started, he left on a 10-day 25th anniversay cruise with his wife. When he returned, we went to watch the sunset at the beach and he explained that due my past, he was scared of being 4X. Smack. He is married, on a 10 cruise with his wife, and is scared of being 4X? A master of blade turning. Too many morals and ironies to this story to list and they are all too self-evident now. One thing I learned 60 days into the affair is that I could not trust him. Of course now I recognize that you can never, ever, ever trust a MM because they are liars from the get go. From that day forward for 2 years, I never shared one drop of information about me. Nothing, other than when my daughter got into a University. Never mentioned my father other than he was a lit teacher (rather than a criminal pervert), never mentioned my mother, other than she was deceased (rather than she died of a STD inflicted by my father), 4 siblings, and 5 nieces. He didn’t really much ask or apparently care. Although I knew everything about his father, mother, 4 siblings, 5 nieces and 2 nephews, and 3 children.
I’m not sure where the line is between sharing and too much information, particularly because I opt for being distant and unavailable as a means of self-perservation. Many hugs to you all and I wish us all the best in our journey. No more suicide thoughts. We are not defined through our past or through EUM/AC/MM’s. We are intelligent adults with the power to define our futures, right? Please tell me this is right! Love and hugs.
NML
Thank you for the time you invest in our lives, for sharing all your insights,
this had help me understand the dinamics of my emotions and how i persive the human relations. now because of this my daughter (17) is more wise and secure.
Ressurection,
I’m in the same boat as you. My ex MM is also my coworker. It ended a little over a month ago. We were together for three yrs as well. He promised me the world, that he would leave his wife, we would be together , have a child, he couldn’t wait to spend the rest of our lives together…etc. So of course it was devastating to realize and accept these things were never happening. What has helped me somewhat is to put up an invisible wall around me for my own protection and healing. A boundary that he can’t cross…for once. I only communicate when necessary and work -related. I also blocked his number and confided in a friend at work because secretly living with the pain and torment at work was eating at my soul. So having the support of another coworker made it a little less painful. Also the NC emails help to reinforce!
TRL, thank you for your words.
I, too, confided in somone at work once it was over. She sits right in front of MM’s office, and if I need to go in there, one look at her reminds me to check myself! 🙂
I’m employing many of the tactics you are and it’s working. I’m impatient for it to just get over with, but I know I have to grieve.
Work is all work now. And the NC e-mails truly help me as well!
My Dear Elly B,
I had a horrid mother too…truly, I can now even “joke” with a friend of mine that my mom was a “Lady Macbeth” in her own strange way.
This internalizing that I have done for most of my life both saddens and angers me at times because I realize ALL the wasted tears on someone who was SO not worth it in the end, but I didn’t know that then, however, I DO know that now.
With regards what “he” said to me…I was shocked and had a sickening sense in my stomach of “Oh my god, I trusted him”…and there are no words to describe that very visceral “hit” to the gut that you feel when you have that utterly scary and profound realization…it strikes you at the very core of your heart.
I think it was Natasha who said here something about having the moment when you realize that “it” (meaning bad behavior) was NEVER about you, but rather them, and I think she said (I want to give you due props Natasha as I value your words) something about what a great relief it was to realize that “Oh, you mean they would do this with someone else and not just me” because that in itself is such a tremendous epiphany to have, to know that it wasn’t something you said/did/thought/felt but rather, the onus was on them and I think once you are able to accept and really let yourself believe that, then, you can begin to move forward and heal.
Still though, it’s very hard…even now, random thoughts come to me and that sense of seeking validation is extremely difficult to overcome but as Natalie said in one of her NC emails “Why would you want to return to the source of your pain”…why indeed?!
I am sending you many hugs 🙂
Since breaking up with my ex-AC I’ve started to think that he preys on insecure women. I’ve always had self-esteem issues, and have always felt like the ugly/fat/unattractive/etc. girl, and there he was, this charming, handsome, likeable guy, and he wanted me. It’s like he built up my self-esteem, telling me I was beautiful and attractive, and then he turned around and passive aggressively crushed it by becoming less and less interested in sex and physical intimacy. He didn’t out right tell me I wasn’t pretty enough, but his actions made me start to doubt his attraction to me, which only made me try harder to make him want me, and made me feel horrible about myself. It was such a messed up relationship. And by the end of it, my self-esteem and confidence were destroyed. It’s been almost a year now, and I still struggle to feel like I’m not completely hideous. I’ve been left feeling like I was manipulated and used, and like he picked me specifically because I’m not a stereotypical ‘hot’ girl. That way, I would just be so grateful that somebody like him would want somebody like me that I would just put up with his crap. I just wish he’d never bothered with me in the first place, it would have saved me a lot of hurt.
Cavewoman- you asked for a story of how truly honest conversations about insecurities look like in a healthy relationship.
I’ve recently entered into something pretty damn healthy. When I start getting close to someone, I get insecure about them leaving. Healthy chats are a two way street, both parties have to have their hearts in the right place, want it to work, be able to look at their own part, and be a little brave. My guy knows that sometimes I like/need/want verbal confirmation that all is well and he’s not going anywhere. I recently went looking for reassurance
from him at a time he wasn’t fully able to calm me. He was dealing with his own anxieties. This of coarse, escalated my unease. He was stressed and mentioned feeling like he always had to be ‘sure’ and strong, and that he doesn’t always feel that way. In turn, I took it to mean he was in some great internal debate over if he wanted to be with me. I got more anxious. Things felt a little tense. I turned to myself, tried to calm myself with self talk- I’m going to be okay regardless – he wasn’t gone yet and if he was going to go.. I can’t control it. I tried to let go a bit. I did worry about freaking him out with my insecurity too but then I actually remembered to shift focus- you need to think about if this
works for you and what will you do if it doesn’t? And where’s the line between me handling myself and me wanting him to help me feel safe?
Reminded myself that I don’t want a relationship if I’m going to be afraid of saying I’m afraid. But I also dont want to put it all on him, especially when he’s not in the right space. Then I remembered his goodness. I tried to trust that if something was wrong, he’d tell me and we’d co-pilot from there. Before he came over last night I decided I wanted to let go and trust him (and ‘us’) enough.. Give him the space to actually show me, or not, that he’s still there. And, he was! Later we talked about it all. I let him know about the process I went through. He said things like… I’m committed to this, I’m not just going to run away. There’s no gurentees on forever (I struggle with this in general) and while the true reality IS that we are still learning about each other and if we ‘work’ he CAN tell me he’s going to include me if there’s a problem, in effort and hopes that we can work it out. He even said some sorries that he wasnt in the right space to provide immediate reassurance. To which I said, don’t be, it was a mix of us both, but we got to learn we can handle these things together (and apart). I think his trust in me and us grows as he watches me work through stuff, let go, and trust him. And we bond more, partly because we see and except that we are both human, yet we do both operate from a place of respect, friendliness, and desire to have both our needs met.
Magnolia and Runner Girl,
As always, thank you so both so much for your insights and sharing.
Magnolia, yes, I also, in addition to the cuttings when younger, also had an eating disorder as well so I can very much relate. Thank you for saying that my ex was “whack” to say that to me, and yes, he was! And I am sorry for you having to experience a similar situation as well…to “use” anything as an excuse, rather than just admit the truth and thus, make themselves look “bad” is, to me, pretty reprehensible. As a guy friend of mine said to me, “It’s like he came in and dumped all his emotional baggage on YOU rather than admit the real truth to himself about who he was and what he was doing”…very insightful, I think.
Runner Girl, yes, same here, with me…after the initial confession to him about the cuttings when younger, I got the not so subtle message, “I am freaked out by this, I wish you hadn’t told me and please don’t tell me anymore, it makes me uncomfortable”…and hence, yet again, this feeling of, “Having to keep these things to myself” and what a horrible way to feel, and be, in a relationship, that the other person only seems to “want” you when you are happy and upbeat and problem free…and what kind of real relationship is that?! My head is spinning thinking about it all.
I am reminded of the second “Bridget Jones” movie in which Bridget, in a restaurant, has a supposed “friend” come up to her and say ALL the wrong things, in a very apparent attempt to make Bridget feel unsure of herself and her relationship…as she puts it, with each comment this woman makes to her, “One jellyfish sting, two jellyfish stings” and that is rather like how it feels: this “slam” from a man who claims to love and care about you…yuck.
It’s okay to say, “I don’t understand” but NOT okay to then use it as an excuse for bad or uncaring behavior, that is never okay.
Am sending hugs to you both 🙂