One of the things I’ve noticed in life is that we spend a lot of time ‘preventing’ what we feel are the potential for ‘unfavourable outcomes’. What we then discover in hindsight, is that while while working hard to prevent what we’re afraid of happening, feeling, and facing, we exclude ourselves from something that would actually have benefited us and would have been worth facing our fear, or, we invite more pain.
We end up with a very narrow focus that stops us from seeing the bigger picture, often because we’re instant or short-term focused, or so incredibly uncomfortable with the possibility of experiencing something that we didn’t like before, possibly because we think we can’t ‘handle’ it that well or because we’re still giving ourselves a hard time over the previous efforts.
People tell me that they’re trying to prevent being rejected by someone, so they start doing all sorts of ‘doormat missions’ that not only result in them feeling taken advantage of / abused and rejected, but also leave them struggling to come to terms with their self-rejection in the process.
Not wanting to experience rejection is also why some people don’t put themselves out there or they find ways to get out before they’re ‘pushed’ out. But they feel rejected by opting out of trying or they’re often in turmoil about jumping ship anyway so they’re not really preventing what they set out to.
People tell me that they keep texting / emailing / dialling someone who is half-interested or even not interested, because they don’t want to be forgotten. Aside from putting themselves on a crumb diet and inflating it into a loaf, while they may be preventing being forgotten, they may actually be memorable for the wrong reasons plus they’re preventing themselves from being open for something better and being in a relationship where they don’t get RSI (repetitive strain injury), overactive imagination burnout, and analysing the crappola of out of texts/email overload.
Maybe you’ve tried to prevent facing the possibility of your partner moving on and becoming a better person in a better relationship with someone else, even though you’re very unhappy in the relationship you have with them and whatever they’re doing and whoever they’re being isn’t working for you. Guess what? You’re preventing yourself from being your best self in a better relationship or life in general while you play security guard on your investment. It’s not even like you’re holding on because you’re working on it together – you’re holding on because you want to prevent having to deal with an ‘unfavourable outcome’ that you might blame yourself unnecessarily for. It’s also like deciding that you’ll be miserable together, rather than run the risk of having to sort your own happiness.
Maybe you’ve tried to prevent someone from thinking one particular thing about you, but in expending so much effort into trying to get into Other People’s Minds and seeking validation, you haven’t prevented them from drawing another conclusion or from behaving any differently.
Maybe you tried to prevent the possibility of not being there on the off-chance that a married / attached person decided to finally leave. Well you’ve certainly prevented yourself from seeing that they haven’t left and what that actually means, but what you definitely haven’t prevented is the awful feelings that consume you and the gnawing ache of a half life at best.
Maybe you’ve tried to prevent ‘failure’, only you’ve also prevented success because you’re scared of getting that wrong too, plus how are you going to grow out of your experiences, including any so-called ‘mistakes’, if you won’t face the truth, even when it’s difficult?
Preventing ends up causing you to avoid what can be some very positive and even enriching parts of life – experiences that have your whole self in.
You can put so much energy into avoiding all of the things you fear such as abandonment, disappointment, rejection, conflict, failure, decisions, risk etc., that you end up taking cover, missing out on your own life, and being full of regret. This regret comes because you stuck with a preventative position in spite of compelling reasons to do otherwise – adopting a position of making things happen by influencing your own habits and choices so that you naturally minimise the things you fear from happening because you’re in a happier, healthier situation. Or, when the inevitable pain in the bum and difficult things happen in life, you have habits and thinking that put you in a better position to face them instead of treading water.
And the funny thing is: Many of the ‘unfavourable outcomes’ that we bust our tails trying to prevent are really not that unfavourable and are actually blessings in disguise, teaching us positive lessons about ourselves about where we may need to adapt our habits and thinking, and removing us from people and situations that are not meant to be part of our future.
Your thoughts?
For more on grabbing onto life instead of dodging it in painful situations, check out my books The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship and Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl which are available from my bookshop.
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Another spot-on post. In hindsight, I spent an unhealthy amount of time in dead end relationships ‘just in case’. Just in case he changed. Just in case the drama I felt WAS real feeling. Just in case I hadn’t given it long enough to be sure.
All the time I spent putting off the inevitable, I ignored my gut feelings and second guessed myself at every turn. It’s exhausting. I neglected to realise the damage I was doing to my self-esteem by staying under the guise of being strong enough to not give up.
I’m still healing from years of casual relationships and its only now that I’m settled into a regular, balanced, loving partnership that my issues have come to the fore. I dealt with them (not) previously by moving onto the next casual EUM which was effective in distracting me from the pain of the breakup but just compounded the damage done when the inevitable end came about.
I visit here still to remind me of how far I’ve come and what I felt like when I first found BR.
Avoiding the rejection of an EUM or AC or a casual relationship is really just rejecting oneself and the opportunity to live life as a whole, healthy, congruent person with dignity and self respect. Just my opinion but I’m learning that I rejected so much of ME in my stubborn, ego-driven pursuit of relationships with the kinds of guys I involved myself with. I’m amazed at how easy life is now. Xxx
Sarah T, Thank you for the insightful and inspiring post. This especially hit home:
“Avoiding the rejection of an EUM or AC or a casual relationship is really just rejecting oneself and the opportunity to live life as a whole, healthy, congruent person with dignity and self respect. Just my opinion but I’m learning that I rejected so much of ME in my stubborn, ego-driven pursuit of relationships with the kinds of guys. I’m amazed at how easy life is now”
I look forward to being where you are. 🙂
I was with my fiance.caz I was waiting for them to change if not in engagement maybe after marriage I was also afraid to become.single again n having to adapt to singlehood It losing my last chance saloon _ wrong thoughts_ although it was better to leave n not lose my time n be grateful for the blessing in disguise
I. Broke up n now I know that my thoughts were not real my break up was a blessing in disguise n now I embrace my singlehood waiting for the real love of my life
I think I will be rereading this post many times. It is like Natalie interviewed me and then wrote this post.
Natalie:
I have a question for you: What if chronic illness, as a result of a person’s OVER involvement for many years with an abuser, has created limitations in a person’s life? I find this to be my personal situation. So if I am learning how to take care of myself, by making decisions that say I have to HONOR my limitations and take good care of my emotional and physical well being, means I won’t be able to do the things I DREAMED of doing, but that in honoring myself now, it means what were my dreams take on a different meaning or path? I find this to be a personal battle after my series of abusive relationships and life long abuse in general. I think our choices in what is healthy and/or not, involve many elements that only WE can decide upon. My dream has also been to live a peaceful life, keep working on my healing and have no toxic others in my life. It’s working for me.
I realize what I’m about to say is also a personal reference, however, in your post above, with regards to not letting someone go so they can be happy in their life and/or potentially with someone else..I agree with you. But only when it comes to those that have the empathy and are relatively healthy. This isn’t applicable to an abuser. I want to put that out there for clarification, if no one else but for me and how your post impacted me as you’ve written much about ass clown and EUM behavior. Sometimes letting go of someone is healthiest we can do for ourselves and NOT for them in any way. Ass clowns and EUM”s do not go on to find “healthy and happy” relationships. Just sayin Great post. 🙂
On the last bit of you post…Im not sure if this makes me sound like a heartless, mean person..but a part of me want to know that these EUMs and assclows actually dont get into “happy and healthy relationships”. I broke my heart why my ex ex EUM (after whom I ended up in depression) married the girl right after me. Yes. MARRIED. Happy wedding pictures and all that. How is that fair? He left me wonded and crying but found “happiness and love” with someone else?????!! Doesnt God or fate or karma or whatever favour the honest and good people anymore?
Just like K, I want to know for myself. I want to know that this ex EUM like the past wont go on to live a fairytale life…that somehow everything good, respectful and honest that I have done, will count. I NEED to know.
purplelily:
let go of ur anger
accept the matter as something that happens in life
n try to stop thinking abt him
look elsewhere
“Doesnt God or fate or karma or whatever favour the honest and good people anymore?”
Start by favouring yourself and not hooking your star to someone who mistreated you. Stop stalking his wedding pictures. I mean this kindly as someone who has gone through this myself – get a life. New friends, new job (or recommit to your current job), new hobbies, new exercise regime, new counsellor.
You have better things to do than burn up your time and energy like a Bad Relationship Vigilante hoping that someone’s marriage will fall apart
No-one has a fairy tale life. We all live, get sick, get made redundant, our loved ones die, we die. We get bored at work, we get periods of depression, we get lonely. The fact that you even think a fairy tale life exists just shows you are in a fantasy where this man is the key to the Magic Kingdom. There is no Magic Kingdom.
Live your life now. It’s here. It needs you.
Rana and Grace,
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Im sorry for I sounded so angry. That is not who I am. I wrote that right after I had cried about my recent EUM. It has only been a few weeks and Im trying to cope.
Grace, if you knew my life you would know that I dont believe in a fantasy or magic kingdom. In all honesty, I am glad that EUM came to my life – I was 23 and I learnt so much about myself and my mistakes but most of all, about the strength that lies within me. Plus brought me new friends, new hobbies, travels and a new therapist. I even, not too long ago, thought “She (his wife) seems like a nice girl. I do hope he is nice to her and she is happy”. And I meant it.
I do have a good life filled with friend and family who love me. I am blessed. I see things a lot more clearly (currently slightly smoggy due to recent EUM).
But dont you ever ask yourself such questions about your past EUMs? I honestly would have thought such questions would be normal…? Maybe I have a while to go before I am fully ok but have you completely stopped thinking about what this someone did to you? How little and insignificant they made you feel while all you did was care? (no doubt at all that you are better off without them, it was all about them and you much more valuable to this world).
PurpleLily,
This post may help:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/hes-with-someone-else-why-her-and-not-me/
Just because this guy got married and he’s posting wedding pictures does not mean that he’s transformed into some wonderful man.
“It’s not about her because you are two different people and the likelihood is that if he was f*cked up when you were with him and he’s taken up with someone else, he hasn’t changed which means that there is something about the relationship with her that let’s him believe that he can continue being himself.
You also need to remember that with men who habitually mess women around, they ALWAYS blow hot at first which means that when you are losing your mind obsessing over him, he’s going through the same hot phase that he treated YOU to at the beginning. But eventually, lukewarm or downright cold kicks in.”
Hope this helps.
Purplelily,
The only way you can win is NOT to become bitter about it all. What bigger ego stroke to the AC than that you´re hurting because he chose someone else? (even if he doesn´t know it)
And in the bigger scheme of things, wouldn´t you be the “winner” if you learn to move on, open up to a partner who really loves and respects you, and feel indifferent towards this AC (who will get bored anyway of his marriage sometime soon).
I do believe there is something like karma, only it doesn´t work in the way that would seem logical to us – you need to develop awareness of yourself to get the prize. And I read somewhere that if there is a God, he favours the brave – meaning that if you take care of yourself, don´t let yourself be a victim of others, face your needs and wants truthfully, good things will come your way.
A and Lilia ..
I truely do believe that they dont change. I can honestly say that with my now married EUM, I wouldnt want anything to do with him- we tried to be friends after the breakup and he treated me poorly even then. It was all about the ego stroke I provided him.
5 years on, the recent EUM – I thought I had learnt. This guy (unlike the previous one) was lovely and kind – I didnt expect this from him. He said he “gets attached too soon” and “have been hurt lots before”…cant imagine anyone who has been thru that to turn around and do exactly the same nasty thing? But this is where EUMs and ACs come in.
I guess that is what hurts – I was older and wiser and thought I had seen the worse but got duped. I have much to learn.
I am the winner here, you are right Lilia. I get to take the lessons I have learnt and become a stronger, more open and loving person and be with someone who respects and loves me. I truly know that this will happen 🙂
Thank you both for filling my heart with hope and making me smile 🙂
K – in terms of the chronic illness, I think that Life In General has a habit of limiting your options over the years (although sometimes in a less awful way than chronic illness, I’m really sorry that you’re stuck with that) and that part of living well and being emotionally healthy means accepting and being realistic about whatever limitations there are. You have to treat yourself well and, actually, making yourself ill in pursuit of things that you want – no matter how laudable and good in themselves – would effectively mean that you were being an assclown to yourself.
One of the things that I’m starting to realise is that your relationship with yourself is pretty much like your relationship with anyone – it involves nice things – like treating yourself well and loving yourself dearly – but it also involves difficult things like sacrifice, graft, boredom (sometimes) and compromise.
Perhaps it’s the difference between contentment and serenity, or between ambition and fulfilment? I don’t know – I don’t have to live with a difficult or debilitating illness so I hope I don’t sound too preachy!
“People tell me that they keep texting / emailing / dialling someone who is half-interested or even not interested, because they don’t want to be forgotten. Aside from putting themselves on a crumb diet and inflating it into a loaf, while they may be preventing being forgotten, they may actually be memorable for the wrong reasons plus they’re preventing themselves from being open for something better and being in a relationship where they don’t get RSI, overactive imagination burnout, and analysing the crappola of out of texts/email overload.”
Can someone please tell me……What is RSI????
RSI I think its Repetitive Stress Injury…..painful fingers, thumbs and joints from texting, dialling and emailing…think you can also get this from sweeping up crumbs in an unhealthy relationship too!!!!
thank u truth=freedom
Following the end of my last relationship (which destroyed me for months)..I have been doing anything to prevent further pain for myself- isolating myself, avoiding men- and I fear that by doing this I am setting myself up for exactly for what I am so eagerly trying to avoid.
I am 27 years old now and beginning to realise that if I want a family..I’m going to have to put myself back out there. The prospect is terrifying. I am already so scared that I have left it too late and I have no idea where to begin.
At the weekend I was at a party, talking to a group of men and they were asking me about myself. When I revealed that I was 27 and single they proceeded to ask me well, was I nervous about this?
I have spent the last year putting myself back together following my last break up and I don’t even know if I’m even ready for anything. I’ve spent the last few days so upset because I am not sure what I should do next and I’m afraid.
By preventing myself from experiencing pain and experiencing potential failures I might also be preventing myself from becoming happy. Is anyone going through similar or has anyone gone through similar. Any advice would be wonderful.
anne
my advice is to get yourself into dating life cause if u continuing shedding yourself out of dating u might be losing very good potentials, n a happy future so be positive. Do not be over thinking abt the negative outcomes, cause they might happen – NOTHING CERTAIN.
BE OPTIMISTIC there r many ladies in their thirties n forties n have not met with the right one for them, they r successful beautiful with good personalities, so nothing is wrong if u were late to get married, n it is none’s business to question abt this matter.
Sometimes it is better not to get married then getting married to the wrong one or wrong reasons, having a miserable married life is worse then being a happy single. so u did not find the right one for u yet, just that.
wishing u good.
hello Ann, its not too late, your still v young, im 32 years old and im not worried. Maybe you need time to heal and by reading Natalies posts shows your already looking for a new way to be, your starting young and have years left to find someone and have a family, a huge amount of years,
When i was 27years old i had this very fear and i new i went for abuser type men and didn’t no what to do but i hit thirty and decided to get to know myself after the last relationship took its toll, i nearly married him just because i was 29 and felt i had to be married by thirty, lol i was going to marry a eum just because of fear, and an abusive one at that, he went onto marry another girl and I breathed a sigh oF relief, i realised i didnt fancy him or miss HIM, i listened to my gut for the first time ever
ive been out/contact with two more eum’s but got out quicker.as better at spotting the signs, only just found Natalie, its progress not perfection, there is no big clock on the wall waiting for your time to run out, people date at sixty plus and find healthy loving relationships, i just spent two weeks with another eum who criticised and put me down about everything in my life even that i’d chosen to be single, i started to beat myself up again then i just got out knowing its better for me to keep my options open and wait for a great guy then stick with somene like that through fear, so ive moved from staying 2 years to staying 2 weeks…
Im a big beater upper and self blamer, i found natalies post on validation had amazing stuff about this, i only speak for me but my self esteem was so low i kept choosing wrong men and i am on a journey of self discovery right now, i had to look at myself first and its been along painful process, therapy is great as it helps me sort out what i truly want and think and feel not want makes society more comfortable and going off what other tell me, i still worry a little about not being able to have a family but i think tomorrow i could meet Mr right.
i’ve stopped dating in the short term to work on me and getting to love me, i wont let bein 32 stop me what a great way to spend time having a loving healthy relationship with oneself and then in turn all the dreams of a good man will come, so i hope im not speaking out of line but go easy on yourself, your doing great its small steps, you have PLENTY of time, 🙂
Choose better and choose what you pay heed to. A bunch of men at a party making personal statements do not epitomise wisdom or insight.
Fill your life with good things AS A SINGLE PERSON and the right man will turn up. Otherwise you’ll just keep meeting twerps or *cough* idiots at parties. You will not even SEE the decent men. We bleat a lot that there are no decent men. They are freakin everywhere. You have to change what you are looking for which starts with changing yourself, or rather reconnecting with your authentic self.
And for crying out loud, YOU ARE STILL IN YOUR TWENTIES! *head desk*
Ha grace – beat me to it.
Q: “You’re 27 and single? Aren’t you worried about that?”
A: “No. Aren’t YOU worried about the fact that you’re whatever age you are and you’ve not yet learnt how to interact with your fellow human beings without asking assumptive, supercilious and patronising questions? (bog off!)”.
Ann – when I was 27 I was very worried about my life stagnating because I wasn’t in a relationship. At 31 (next week) I haven’t had an ‘official’ relationship since, but I’ve had a baby, been promoted and moved house twice. I’m not saying that it’s been all bad or all pleasant, but I think it would’ve all been easier if I hadn’t been so hung up on my single state and had concentrated more on all the lovely things that I DID have.
Yoghurt: Q: “You’re 27 and single? Aren’t you worried about that?” A: “No. Aren’t YOU worried about the fact that you’re whatever age you are and you’ve not yet learnt how to interact with your fellow human beings without asking assumptive, supercilious and patronising questions? (bog off!)”.
LOVE IT!!! I think our age and our singledom are two of those favourite sticks toxic men love to beat us with. To me remarks like that are almost a red flag now (dark amber at the very least).
Btw, I’ve heard more of those remarks in my mid-twenties than now, ten years later. I guess it’s because I’ve developed at least a few boundaries since then…
Recently, a guy 15 years my senior (!!!) tried to make me feel bad about my “old” age. I was shocked. A few days later, he treated me so disrespectfully that I “flushed” him immediately. He was “merely” a business contact (and a former coworker), but I had some fantasies about him… Not any more. It was a slightly painful experience anyway.
That’s why I now believe remarks about our age (especially from OLDER men) and similarly disrespectful stuff should be taken as a bad sign.
Anne,
You’re twenty-seven not one hundred and seven! Ten years from now you’ll wonder what on earth you thought your problem was. When I was twenty-five I thought I was getting over the hill. I was horrified to turn thirty and wished to God I was was twenty-five again. I spent most of my thirties dreading turning forty. When I turned forty I thought my world was over and wished to God I was thirty again – even thirty five would do! I spent most of my forties dreading turning fifty. I turned fifty last year and guess what, I’d give my right arm be forty again! My mum came up with this wise advice for me: relax, whatever age you are, you will never be this young again. So forget your age and live your life. Just live.
Anne – if it helps, I am 28 and on the same boat. I do want to be married and be a mother someday. But until that happens, I will try and focus on me and do the things I want. I learn languages, new skills, save and travel every year and meet new people and every time I realise that I do LOVE being single because it is all about me and loving myself. I find the happiest me when I am doing this.
I am not perfect, I am hurting at the moment but what I try and do is take a little time off when I feel like this and focus on me (hard task but needs to be done). And you have done so well for spending the past year take care of yourself – it will bring you good things.
Just go out there, go out on a few dates. There is nothing to fear. Go knowing you have loved and built yourself stronger the last year and are armed with information you have learnt of BR. Go with your eyes open, you are too special to just settle. You will sooner or later find someone who sees the wonderful things you have within you and everything you offer. Dont give up, you dont even have ONE reason to give up hope about (none of us at any age do!)
Now go out get yourself a new dress, treat yourself to some nice shoes and rock the world!
Good luck mate!
Thank you guys for your kind replies.
I just, I don’t know I feel pretty panicked. I just at a place where I feel dissatisfied with my life and I feel too scared to be alone but too scared to find someone. It’s an awful feeling that I am sure many of you identify with. I hope things pick up soon.
As for those ignorant men…I understand that they were being rude but at the same time they have not been the first people to remind me that the clock is ticking. Even my aunt last week was telling me that I should getting popping out babies soon.. :/…it’s a pressure that is there everywhere I turn.
Anne (spelt it right this time!)
It’s only a pressure it you let it weigh on you and it’s only there if you choose to see it.
Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the men just thought that they were being edgy and hilarious by making you feel insecure and the aunt struggles to understand anyone who makes different life-choices than her – guaranteed they’ll have their own motivations even if those aren’t the right ones.
Do you see how that a) isn’t a reflection on you b) isn’t a reflection on whether or not 27 is ‘over the hill’ and c) therefore isn’t really any kind of objective or relevant judgement on you or your life AT ALL?
Work out what YOU think about these things. Work out what you’ll say if someone comes up and starts making you feel bad for not coming out of the womb fully equipped for Successful Relationships (I’d recommend “Well I’d rather wait for a decent man than settle for any old donkey” but it’s up to you of course). Work out what YOU want to be doing with your life NOW – what sort of person to you want to be around, what sort of activities do you want to be doing, what sort of lifestyle you want to be living – and actually DO it.
When you feel confident in yourself, your values and your boundaries you’ll feel a lot better about being out and about among people. It’s natural to be laid a bit low by a bad relationship but don’t creep around feeling guilty about yourself and your life. There’s really no need 🙂
Sorry, should add…
One thing that I find useful (and I’ve crept around feeling very guilty for a long time) was breaking things up into steps. Little ones. If you can turn one positive step a week into a habit then you’ll make killer progress.
If going out makes you feel overwhelmed, then start off by looking after yourself really really well for a while – make sure that you’re really comfortable and nurtured and well-fed. That’s a really good start.
I know, I have put myself onto a dating site and I have to say it has been rubbish. Not a lot of people are messaging me but last year when I was on it (26) I used to get mountain loads of messages. So I have no idea. Maybe dating sites aren’t for me and I need to get myself out there.
Anne – I would be careful with these dating websites. I had been on there for almost 4 years and didnt meet anyone but ACs and few ‘nice guys’ who were openly looking for sex. I actually have taken a break from dating at the moment but definitely off online dating.
Its tough to figure out who the ACs are and I havent heard of too many people meeting genuine, honest men/women.Most people are out there for sex and will spin all kinds of stories to get it (met recent EUM there who said he wanted to “fall in love and have a relationship” BLAH!).
It is a BIG, nasty gamble. If you do want to try it, approach with 1000x times caution. ((hugs))
This post hit close to home for me… I think I always knew in the back of my mind how my relationship with the EUM would end. Of course I knew , I was riding it out till the end , afraid to be alone , afraid of abandonment, afraid of rejection… I paid the price in the end with the grief, sadness and betrayal.. Was it worth it, absolutley NOT…. I knew he cheated on his wife, I caught him on a dating site while I thought we had a monogomous relationship. I could go on and on and bore u with all the gory details but I wont. Its water over the damn for me.. Thank you Nat for showing me I deserve so much more..That I am not alone in my history of dead end relationships. That I can and will recognise AC/EUM behavior immediatley and abort mission.and never put up with less than I deserve again.
Kit Kat. I hear you – your story sounds similar to mine with the exEUM duping you into thinking you had a “monogamous” relationship. I think it was Fearless who laughed at my own dream around that one, as I actually believed I had an “exclusive“ relationship with a MM! And they say past behaviour predicts future behaviour – so the dating site seems consistent for your ex. I hope you can see SOME positive from all this, even if it is your new awareness in what you deserve.
You said “I always knew in the back of my mind how my relationship with the EUM would end.”. Funny thing – near the end of my “relationship” with the exMM (before I knew about his OOW), I heard the song `How it Ends`by DeVotchka and it made me cry and I didn`t know why. I guess my gut knew. Thank goodness the end result, when all is weighed in, was a favourable outcome!
I’ve found that even in my fairly new relationship with a guy who has thus shown himself to be decent and interested, I’m still trying to prevent things from going wrong. Instead of relaxing and just enjoying his company, I find myself scrutinizing his every move for signs of possible emotional unavailability, which had led to overreactions and corresponding drama on my part, less joy within our relationship, and losing sight of the big picture by fixating on small details that I somehow think will “prevent” another disastrous relationship.
A few days ago, I decided this: I cannot prevent anything. When problems (inevitably) arise, I can and will handle them. Until them, I’m relaxing and enjoying rather than stressing in the name of prevention.
The end.
Cheers.
Magdalena
“When problems (inevitably) arise, I can and will handle them. Until then, I’m relaxing and enjoying rather than stressing in the name of prevention.”
That’s my new mantra too. I was so terrified of men and relationships that I didn’t speak to any men outside my work/family for years. Strangely (ha!) I wasn’t meeting any men anyway, so nothing to worry about. Prevention.
I recently found out from the excrush that from the day he noticed me to the day I spoke to him months later, he’d tried to speak to me several times but I ignored him. More prevention. After I spoke to him, I fastforwarded to the doomsday scenarios and was screwed up with analysis and anxiety for months. As much as I liked him I held him at bay. And yet more prevention.
Now, I just enjoy his friendship. Whatever happens I can deal with it. And, funny this, now that I no longer obsess about him, or imagine our future – happy,sad, or disastrous we are getting on very well indeed. The future hasn’t happened yet. We can’t live in it.
PS I spy no red flags and I sure did look. And I am happy. I’m not advocating this approach to all situations.
I just discussed this in therapy last night. I was talking about how I always chose the wrong men – and she simply said “because you set yourself up that way.” Then we talked about WHY.
I’ve always picked unavailables / abusive emen, hell, my last one (before the MM I just ended it with last week) was a transgender! YES – born female, transitioned to male. If THAT’s not being “safe” in chosing what is certainly what I don’t want, I don’t know what is.
I’ve spent my whole life setting myself up – for failure – with men (and, poor, Kevin who was born Kathy), because I was subconsciously “beating them to the punch”. Just WAITING to be abandoned, used, cheated on, lied to etc.
I say “poor Kevin” only because I treated him so poorly. Ironically, Kevin was a great partner – honest, loving, caring, respectful. He just didn’t have what I thought I didn’t want or need- a penis!
“…And the funny thing is: Many of the ‘unfavourable outcomes’ that we bust our tails trying to prevent are really not that unfavourable.”
Can I get a “Amen” on that one.
Wow! Natalie, this whole post is so timely for me and articulates so much of what I have being coming up against. In particular, this:
“You can put so much energy into avoiding all of the things you fear such as abandonment, disappointment, rejection, conflict, failure, decisions, risk etc., that you end up taking cover, missing out on your own life, and being full of regret. This regret comes because you stuck with a preventative position in spite of compelling reasons to do otherwise – adopting a position of making things happen by influencing your own habits and choices so that you naturally minimise the things you fear from happening because you’re in a happier, healthier situation.”
Thank you as always!
This hit awfully close to home and gave me a deserved and needed “ouch” moment, too:
Maybe you’ve tried to prevent facing the possibility of your partner moving on and becoming a better person in a better relationship with someone else, even though you’re very unhappy in the relationship you have with them and whatever they’re doing and whoever they’re being isn’t working for you. Guess what? You’re preventing yourself from being your best self in a better relationship or life in general while you play security guard on your investment. It’s not even like you’re holding on because you’re working on it together – you’re holding on because you want to prevent having to deal with an ‘unfavourable outcome’
This whole post is really bringing it home for me!
In some ways I have always been putting off ‘life.’ I’m about to take up the first job in my life that I actually set out to qualify myself for, and took years to get to, etc. and I’m almost thirty-nine. I feel like it’s my first job, in a way. I wasted a lot of time by never fully committing to anything – trying to avoid feeling trapped in one career path. Wasted about 15 years moving around, trying different things. No self-blame, I didn’t know that’s what I was doing – it’s not really a waste – but now that I’m at this point I find there’s a lot of pleasure in getting *anything* that it took commitment to get – it’s not so much the what you get, it’s what it took to get it, too …
The corollary to this new commitment on the career side is that I realize that twenty years of mental energy has gone into *how do I avoid being left by a guy I really like* / *how do I become the kind of girl who doesn’t get rejected*? I spent so much time trying to become what some imaginary great guy would want, I missed out on my own chances to do and be what I would want, let go of trying to please some imaginary dude, and become the me that ironically will probably actually attract the right person!
I still find my mind/mood veering by habit to the interior tensing up of “I have to look better than this” or “I have to be more popular than this” or whatever, but realizing that all of that worry is about pleasing some imaginary person, I’ve made a conscious decision to give it up. I have spent 30 odd years wondering if I’m such a loser that I will end up alone and childless, and worrying about it has clearly not lessened the chance that I will indeed “end up” alone and childless. I give it up; I give up. I can’t control whether I meet the right person. Worrying hasn’t helped me control anything. In the meantime I have missed out on many seconds, minutes, and hours of … freedom from anxiety and freedom to just go and explore life.
I’m not the person I thought I had to be to get the guy; but I’m not going to waste the last year of my thirties trying to be her. I want to relax into right now, right now.
Magnolia,
Tons of warm thoughts to you. I spent the evening reading the BR archives (again) and ran across many of our prior comments on our journey. You’ve come such a long, long way. I’m so happy for you. May I suggest that you didn’t actually miss out on becoming who you are by trying to please some imaginary dude, although I know the feeling! You have become who you wanted to be despite the imaginary dude. Relax. You’ll never be alone because you have you. No more worries, girl.
I’m going to spend some time trying to remember when I was 39! If only I’d have relaxed then, I think. I can’t really remember.
Natalie, thank you for what you have created here.
Mags
ditto what runner just said! I remember your posts well when I first came to BR nearly two years ago and you sound like a different women now. I remember thinking back then that this woman is way too anxious about what other people think of her and it’s probably this anxiety and over-analysing everybody else’s thoughts and motives about her and how to be what other people seem to want that is the bulk of the problem (though I understand where all of that was coming from). I recall thinking that people are drawn to (and relaxed with!) people who are confident in themselves and about who they are – whatever that may be. It looks like you are way more accepting of yourself now – yay! And I think you will see the benefits in many many ways. Yes, relax into right now – right now!
Thanks ladies! How neat to be ‘remembered’ by people I’ve only ever known through the computer … 🙂 We have all come a long way, haven’t we? Runner, I like how your recent dating stories are showing how quickly EUMs bounce off of good self esteem!
Yeah, Mags, I popped up here at the same time as Fearless, and I see it too, that change in all of us. It’s funny, reading Nat’s (wonderfully insightful and morale-boosting post), I am so relieved to say that it now triggers very little-to-no anxiety in me, beyond a sense that I used to be very concerned about that – about what my exes or meanie-guys might be being or might be with someone else. It was such a control-freaky, energy-sap and based on a few conceptions that I’ve since booted: that a romantic relationship is THE life journey; that everything is about me; that I am not in charge of what I take to be useful and healthy input about me; that I can’t cope on my own. I just don’t care about the AC anymore. I don’t care about my first boyfriend who was a sh*t. And, apart from occasional loving, wistful thoughts, I have no interest in investing a lot of time in the lives of my good-guy exes because it stops me from being present. Stay focused on that idea of relaxing into you, right now, and knowing that whatever’s going on right now is enough. I imagine this move to a chosen, desired job will blossom into other good things for you, but there’s already enough for us – peace is everything.
magnolia:
is it not possible to adopt a kid, in this way u would not be childless n things would be less lonely n worrying n painful n in ten same time u would be helping a lonely soul
A few years ago I learned the hard way that if a man rejects you, particularly in a cowardly way, its not only a good thing but it indicates that he had serious issues that would’ve been a bigger problem had I stayed. At 52, my relationship life might indeed be over for good but that doesn’t mean I will settle for disrespectful treatment or any sort of casual, ambiguous crap.
Miskwa, I totally agree. And I’m also 52 😉
As one of my sane guy friends told me, once a guy gets to be that age he’s probably quite set in his ways and in his strategies with women.
I doubt your relationship life will be over for good. I hope mine isn’t, either – but the difference now is, I’m simply in no hurry. I’ve had so many experiences that I have a rich memory bank. I’ve had kids so my clock is not ticking. In my city there is a very active meetup group that I might try – it’s been posting activities from concerts to happy hours to hikes, and it seems at least 40 people sign up for each. It seems more appealing to me right now to move amongst a group and talk to various ones, rather than to do a one-on-one computer or bar thing. I’ve never done online dating, but after my last guy totally future faked me by E mail writings – I have even more skepticism towards meeting people by computer, as it’s so easy to BS through writing. At least in person you can prescreen chemistry then take it from there.
Anyone have experience with meeting people through meetups?
Broadsided,
I’m in the same age range as you and Miswaka (53) and there’s no clock or no fire. Thanks to BR, I’m really becoming me. I’ve done a few meetups in my area and it may be the same where ever, computers or bars or grocery stores or the gym. I’ve met a kinda nice guy at a meetup that “texted” he was interested in women and sex. FLUSH. After a year of men-o-pause and a ton of work, I recently signed up on an online site. I do one or two email exchanges and then meet. FLUSHED everybody so far. Finally, talked with the stud muffin at the gym…flat line. Try the meet up. As long as you trust your judgment and believe in you, it won’t matter where you meet a guy. I have my boundaries written down, memorized and just in case, I carry a cheat sheet. If I meet a guy that triggers my libido but can’t cough up a substantial convo, I excuse myself, run to the ladies room, read my cheat sheet, and then end the evening. No more pain for me. I’m now at the point where I would rather be alone and happy, than dangling in limbo while some 50-something has to get his act together and treats me as an option. Thank you Natalie and BR. BTW, I threw away my doormat today.
Not to belabor this post but it is really resonating!
“Maybe you’ve tried to prevent someone from thinking one particular thing about you, but in expending so much effort into trying to get into Other People’s Minds and seeking validation, you haven’t prevented them from drawing another conclusion or from behaving any differently.”
I can see how important this can also be if you replace “haven’t” with “have,” i.e., you have prevented them from another more desirable conclusion because by trying to get into Other Peoples Minds and seeking validation you will likely not act authentically and act from fear, etc., and so will effect conclusions and behaviors that are contrary to your actual wishes and possible outcomes. This is neither here nor there with an AC that needs to be flushed, but useful to consider for the future to check myself.
“Maybe you tried to prevent the possibility of not being there on the off-chance that a married / attached person decided to finally leave.”
Oh Natalie, I was so guilty of this one. I also thought I could not face the pain of ending things with this MM as I had become so dependent on him for attention, affection and what I thought was sharing of our lives (but it hindsight, I simply may have been addicted to him). He gave me just enough hope that he would leave his “doesn’t-mean-what-it-used-to” marriage that I hung around for three years. For nothing. While much of the rest of my life was basically on hold and I missed potential positives. And while I was engaging in behaviour that I *knew* was wrong on so many levels.
“Many of the ‘unfavourable outcomes’ … are really not that unfavourable and are actually blessings in disguise, teaching us positive lessons about ourselves about where we may need to adapt our habits and thinking, and removing us from people and situations that are not meant to be part of our future.”
I am finally having my eyes opened to the truth of this statement. I believe that people come into our lives for a reason, and I know I am taking some positive lessons from the mess I got myself into. Not everything about the relationship with the exMM was negative. I rediscovered parts of myself that were long hidden, and for that I am grateful. But continuing with him would have caused the negatives to outweigh the positives. I felt powerless to leave of my own accord, and I used to wish he would do something so definitive that I would have direction to stay or go. I got that wish in the form of an OOW. As painful as it was, it has helped me to detach completely from the exMM, to find my way here to BR, and most importantly, to find my way back to ME.Now begins the work of improving my ways of thinking and behaving. I would say those were favourable outcomes!
K
Can you clarify your question? I’m not really sure what your asking. I’m very interested because I have chronic illnesses, but they aren’t due to being involved with an abuser. And I have been struggling a lot lately with avoidance/acceptance.
Blimey NML, you’re like some All-Seeing being, and it’s really VERY spooky and disconcerting!! AAaaarrgh!!
….”Many of the ‘unfavourable outcomes’ that we bust our tails trying to prevent are really not that unfavourable and are actually blessings in disguise”. Wow Nat you couldn’t be more right. A few years ago as you know I did everything imaginable to prevent him from leaving, I predicted I’d never survive and ended up feeling worse by my own behavior then anything he did. I truly was my own worst enemy.
Fast forward to now and low and behold it has been a blessing what happened. I’m much happier than when I was with him, I have a whole new life, friends and family that I can now see truly care (they always did but I was blind), I’m engaged in life not just waiting around for someone.
Yes it would be nice to share this new life with someone but its not a requirement for me to be happy. I get to live my life how I want to and not everyone gets to say that.
Thank you so much Natalie, I was reading your articles from 2008 and every time you write something so useful and different OK, I am not the best student on BR, but at least I rid of my AC number 1 after almost 4 and a half years!
Amen to : “””””And the funny thing is: Many of the ‘unfavourable outcomes’ that we bust our tails trying to prevent are really not that unfavourable and are actually blessings in disguise, teaching us positive lessons about ourselves about where we may need to adapt our habits and thinking, and removing us from people and situations that are not meant to be part of our future””””
Wow, Natalie. This was written for me. I am in a relationship that is so substandard and I know that I need to get out, but I am so so so afraid of the pain that comes with rejection, abandonment and loneliness. My own intuition tells me that if I can get past that fear, I will be open to much better things in my life, which I deserve, but that fear is too strong. I hope I’m getting closer though.
Hi Scarlet,
Sometimes it helps me to remember that, when I put up with an unacceptable guy, I am also forcing everyone I love to put up with him too – both (1) because they have to spend time with him when I bring him around, and (2) because they have to spend time with an unhappy, inauthentic version of ME even when he is not around.
Depending on how bad your partner is, the fact that you are willing to force his influence into your loved ones’ lives can really be as impolite as releasing a basket full of live rats at a formal dinner held in your honor.
If you know this relationship is substandard, then you will DEFINITELY be much happier once you get out, as long as you allow yourself to go NC and appropriately grieve the loss (i.e., no watching him on facebook or elsewhere, no ‘researching’ him online, no talking about him incessantly for months with your friends).
Be true to yourself and the people who treat you WELL. Don’t wait.
Like HS, I have also been reading some of Natalie`s posts from 2008. So helpful. I found one on ways to cope with breaking up with a MM, but I think it applies to breaking up with any of these EUM`s. It was taking a break from ones regular routine, going on holiday. I am taking that to heart and going on holiday for the next week. I may not have internet access, and I can`t use my mobile much as it will be expensive. Normally, I would be panicked, not being able to stare at that phone every 5 minutes to see if the exMM had texted (as per comments by others on BR – Christine? Runnergirl?). Heck, I used to have exMM`s name in there under a female friend`s name so people would think I was texting HER all the time instead of him. I went to great lengths to make sure I could get my “crumb fix“. Now I am welcoming the chance to break free from the constant phone checking, and email checking. I am breaking free from exMM and his harem, and showing back up in my own life.
To bring it back to Natalie’s current post, “Preventing ends up causing you to avoid what can be some very positive and even enriching parts of life – experiences that have your whole self in.” I plan to pour my whole self into enjoying this holiday, free from the exMM, and see what positives I can experience. Have a great week everyone!
Good for you, Learner 🙂
Hey Learner, so glad to hear you can’t access the internet and it won’t matter how much you stare at the cell. Totally immerse yourself in your holiday. Sheesh, you are a very fast learner. You have a very great week. Isn’t is something when we shed the shackles of these AC’s?
Frig, I’ve got to go find that stupid cell now that you mention it. It looks like I’ll have to call my land-line to find that stupid cell.
You are on the right path in ditching for good the lying cheating exMM. The OOW just made me want to scream. SCREAM….
I am still recovering from a relationship where the man dumped me out of the blue. I think I did everything right, I didn’t try to prevent losing him or act out of fear of losing him, I was genuine and honest, I didn’t screw up! Still, after what was a long and great relationship, I am convinced he got cold feet, panicked and out of the blue dumped me by text. I never saw him again. My heart was so broken! But, I realize that it was not about me at all, it was about him. I have no control over these things. Some people come in your life and then go out again and it has nothing to do with what you do or who or what you are…..it is their issues, their mental health, or their decisions on how they want their life to progress.
Now in reading this blog I see that there were red flags I just didn’t see or understand at the time, like the fact that he had only had a string of 3 month relationships other than his marriage which only happened because she got pregnant. That he had serious issues with his mother that he (who himself had a degree is psychology) said had a personality disorder, etc etc.
It was a painful lesson but the lesson was learned and then some.
I think my biggest problem is that I buy into the idea of this one person being the only person in the world for me, and now I know that isn’t true. And so I can enforce some boundaries because it will not be a life or death/ end of the world situation. AND it doesn’t matter anyway, you can be the perfect woman and the perfect girlfriend or potential mate, but they still have their own issues to deal with.
I just started seeing someone new and I hope it goes well but….well….for now I will just enjoy the time I spend with him and hope he does the same.
It’s all about growing a backbone or being depressed all the time! Forget that!
Thanks Natalie, this blog is a treasure, It will be required reading for my girls when they get older!
@Marie –
How lovely to read a post from a woman who is not indulging in self blame at the end of a relationship!!!! You’re my role model!!!!!!
I’m sorry he ended it in such an unbelievably cold fashion. As always though, I am sure this relationship taught you a lot and helped you grow.
Also, I actually don’t even consider the points you made as definitive “red flags.” The string of 3-month relationships strikes me as a bright “yellow flag” (something to definitely keep in mind but not necessarily deter you from him altogether) and him having issues with his mentally ill mother seems expected. From what you have described here, you were performing due diligence in the relationship, and not putting up with unacceptable behavior. That’s excellent.
Just continue being genuine and honest in your relationships, and not allowing fear to dictate your actions, and your odds are very high that you will find a great relationship with a man who can reciprocate.
Many hugs
Marie – I had the same thing happen with a GOOD, long time relationship with a man I loved – broke up by E mail then disappeared. (Hint – you’re probably smarter with it than I was, but a few months later, I took him back, and he did it again!!). This is a very painful scenario – I suffered for about 2 months after the first time. Not at all after the second. It’s shocking to one’s system and sensibilities.
The red flag I ignored was his discomfort in my verbal expressions of affection (even simple things like I so much enjoyed my connection with him), general talk about relationships and what he was looking for, and his lack of telling me anything deep ever on an emotional level. He wouldn’t negate them, he’d just deftly change the subject or give me a passionate kiss, as though that was his answer (and I was weak and assumed so much). He behaved towards me in a caring way, so I thought his discomfort with the verbal stuff was a “guy thing.” He gave me some really fun times and memories, but definitely injured my heart. He was monogamous and not a player….but does have serious emotional issues – not relationship material for me or anyone else.
outcomes… avoiding them… what I’m going through atm & how fruitless my flo nightingale efforts were in the end (even if I did manage to retire her 8 mths bk now)…. death… more outcomes… the idea that I will ever know happiness again (what is that again?)…
its all a little overwhelming… so tired… sorry… not making much sense today… just needed to come here & be w u all x
teachable:
massive (((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))) cos it sounds like you need them.
Try to remember that you’re a) ill b) busy c) stressed d) not sleeping well and e) have just had some big horrible news. Now is not the time to be thinking about big serious things. Now is the time to watch rubbishy films and curl up in your pyjamas on the sofa.
It’s nearly the end of term for me and I’m wiped out, and I’m finding that my thoughts have this tendency to run towards doom whenever I let them – it helps to remember, though, that they’re JUST THOUGHTS and NOT REALITY. Most of them are the result of chemicals going crazy in my brain and creating inexplicable fight-or-flight tendencies. You’ve got a lot more on your plate than me so I’m not surprised that you’re going round in circles.
How you feel now is how you feel now, it’s not your whole life. And how you feel about the situation with the AC will change and things will become clearer when you’ve recovered a bit from the shock and have dealt with other pressing worries.
It never does me any good when people say “stop thinking about things” (I can’t, my brain doesn’t seem to have an ‘off’ button) but I do find that it helps to tell myself, often and firmly, that what I’m dealing with are THOUGHTS and FEELINGS rather than REALITY.
Take care of yourself xx
Dear Teachable, Your pain resonates through in your last response, you have to remind yourself that you did everything possible at that time in your life to help this relationship but in the end you had to save and heal yourself. I think all your passed grief with this person is coming back to you in huge waves of pain and anger and loss as you come to terms with his death and that all the compassion you gave was ‘fruitless’ as you said. Perhaps it was not as fruitless as you think and that was why he contacted you close to the end of his life. This outpouring of grief is understandable and I think you are once more having to grieve the end of this relationship, I am sure through time you will find happiness again, you have such a compassionate heart Take care.
Teachable, hang in there and focus, focus, focus on you and your son. We’ve all attempted to avoid the unavoidable outcomes per Nat’s post. Only to face the unavoidable outcomes square on. Death of a loved one is the worst and on a different scale. The exMM’s 19 year old son died suddenly, tragically. My daughter was the same age as his son when he passed. I still struggle as to why my daughter is still alive and his son isn’t. He said the same thing, “will I ever know happiness again”. I don’t know. When a parent passes, it is the loss of the past. When a child or partner passes, it is the loss of the future. It is overwhelming. And don’t worry about making sense. You are making sense, at least to me.
teachable-
and remember … grief is exhaaaauuuuussssting. do you feel ilke you’re being sat on by an elephant, hit by a bus, and electrocuted all at the same time? if yes, that’s grief, and you’re doing it right.
take very good care of you and your child, now. rest as much as you need. eat carefully. do not push yourself. at. all.
and i promise, it won’t feel like this forever. just hang in there. hang in there.
@teachable Sorry for your loss. Even though he was an AC, it must be such a shock. Take care of yourself.
Oh…my…god…
“People tell me that they keep texting / emailing / dialling someone who is half-interested or even not interested, because they don’t want to be forgotten…they’re preventing themselves from being open for something better and being in a relationship where they don’t get RSI (repetitive strain injury), overactive imagination burnout, and analysing the crappola of out of texts/email overload. Maybe you’ve tried to prevent facing the possibility of your partner moving on and becoming a better person in a better relationship with someone else, even though you’re very unhappy in the relationship you have with them and whatever they’re doing and whoever they’re being isn’t working for you. Guess what? You’re preventing yourself from being your best self in a better relationship or life in general while you play security guard on your investment.”
Another entry that’s like someone slapping me across the face saying “what the hell are you doing??” I’ve been involved with this dude for a little over 8 months now. It’s been nothing but an emotional rollercoaster and me slowly being degraded bit by bit. He makes me feel utterly worthless even though he doesn’t outwardly call me names or physically hurts me. It’s emotional manipulation and it has been cutting into me so bad. Thank god I’m finally opening my eyes. And thank god I’m moving in 2 months because I still don’t think I’m strong enough yet to completely cut him out of my life. I don’t trust him in any way shape or form. He is never there for me, always leaves me hanging, tells me he loves me and misses me but never follows through with it, has double standards being that it’s ok if he does something but when I do it it’s NOT ok, not to mention he shows his dog more affection than me (probably because dogs don’t talk back and he can control it).
I could go on and on. But basically, we’re not right for each other. And any woman in her right mind would not want to be with a 28 year old child. I need to build myself up.
THANK YOU NATALIE.
Not to mention I’m terrified of finding out he’s found someone else….A part of me thinks he will change for her and he’ll be the best boyfriend ever…So I hold on, when in reality I have no idea if he is finding someone else in secret. I need to let go but it’ll be a huge blow to my self esteem if he easily finds someone else.
Castelle,
Are you receiving counseling?
What are you getting from this situation, except for drama and pain? What keeps you in this mess?
I tried therapy WHEN we were dating. i’ve never been one to rely on someone else to help me, i always like finding the answers myself…which is kind of funny considering this situation…
and what am i getting?? i have no idea….a male who POSSIBLY likes me i guess. i’m not the best with relationships as you can probably tell, and yes i admit i have HORRIBLE self esteem issues. and yes….i keep hoping….i really do.
it’s those times that it is really great. when we are snuggled up together and he kisses me, for instance. should i change “when” to “if”?
Cestelle,
I’ve gone out with that exact same guy. I wasted two years on him and totally regret it. I feel nothing but embarrassment that I put up with his emotional abuse and lies.
Run! Don’t walk out of this so-called relationship.
And do not worry a moment about him being a better man with someone else. Without intense therapy, these guys do not change. My ex AC is now with someone else. I hear he was seen holding her hand, which is something he would never do with me (after he started blowing cold, that is).
But I have the benefit of having spoken with his former girlfriends before me. And guess what? He created them with the exact same disrespect, cruelty and indifference that he treated me. Not one of them had a kind word for the guy.
Any guy who’d be mean and disrespectful towards a woman does not really like women. This is hard-wired in their brain. He won’t change.
Move on and don’t look back.
There’s someone who’ll really love you out there. Go find him.
The sad thing is, I was involved with a guy about 5 years ago. We dated for a month and then he broke it off saying he “needed space.” However, we kept hanging out for a year and a half, when suddenly at a party one night he met a girl, talked with her the entire night, and they’ve been dating for 4 years. I was DEVASTATED. It spurred my low self esteem issues and is why I am so upset over this one and reluctant to let him go. However, I met a long time friend the other day who knows this first guy and he told me that the relationship hasn’t been the perfect relationship I thought it was. After all these years of thinking that there was something wrong with me because he couldn’t commit to me but then suddenly found someone else. She actually broke up with him for a while, but they got back together, and apparently he hasn’t really changed. It was kind of relieving to hear, unfortunately.
I witness the times where this guy now is good to me, and I think that he can’t be all that bad if he can be good once in a while, right? He has it in him. He just doesn’t care about me enough to bring that side out…?
thank you so much for your words though. i know you’re right….I am moving in 2 months to go to school in London (I’m in California), which is what I have wanted to do for 4 years or so. He actually was one of the reasons i got the balls to finally just apply to grad school. I needed out.
but thank you. your words are very much appreciated. and i am sorry for what you had to go through, but it’s all for the best, right?
xoxo
Ces, I would have thought we had dated the same exact guy had you not stated his age :-). I was involved with a similar ac, two relationships ago. Same exact m.o. I let him downgrade me too, only I didnt have BR street smarts to realize what it was. Now I do. The next guy I dated tried to downgrade me and I caught on right away, I had a talk with him about it and he decided to break up all in the same day. Next time I’ll be the one opting out first. The point I’m trying to make is that you will get this. And then the real work of standing up for yourself and opting out of shady situations will begin.
I am so sorry that you went through that too. It’s absolutely horrible and i don’t wish it on anyone.
It’s so hard to stand up for yourself when the person you’re standing up to plays the pity game and makes you feel bad for speaking up, subtly or non-subtly. I’ve tried to break it off with him a couple times, and every time he comes back with a vicious verbal attack on me, saying i’m the most horrible person he’s ever met and that i am an asshole for leaving him after these 8 months, and just these outrageous statements and insults….and then i manage to calm him down and he starts to cry or pout and play victim. it scares me. so bad. i’ve started to back away and i’m scared of what he’ll do/say if i keep backing away, so i get back in contact with him.
tonight i texted him asking him if he is pulling away because i am leaving soon, and that i would understand if he was. all he said was “no…i’ve been really busy…” but not too busy to do something awesome that i’ve wanted to do with him for a while with a bunch of friends and then say that he “swore i had to work” and that’s why he didn’t invite me, even though he had a “conscious thought” to include me. i don’t get it. i really don’t. maybe he did actually think i had to work that day, but that’s no excuse for him to just not tell me about it.
i didn’t get a good feeling from him before we ever started hanging out. i always thought he was gay (and so does a lot of people actually) and a player. but once we started talking i was like “oh wow! he’s not what i thought he was at all!” and it was a beautiful thing for about a month. i thought it was all happening too fast….meeting his parents (who he still lives with), his boss (who runs his world), his boss’s parents….all within 3 weeks…
i just don’t know. i really don’t.
thank you for replying! seriously. i love getting any feedback and i love reading all of these entries. thank you for your words of encouragement!!!!!! i wish you the best xoxoxoxo
ps – sorry for this long reply. haha
I think you really need to be strong now and end this, go full NC. It sounds like you are with an incredibly manipulative guy, and when you read what you just wrote, months from now, you will be shocked that you put up with this behavior. It seems obvious from a distance, and you’re too close right now. So many of us have been in your shoes!
He’s been successful in making you feel bad, and successful in both insulting you AND having you soothe him. That pattern is like a drama drug, and it’s highly addictive. You’ve seen through it, you’ve had moments of clarity, and then you focus on the one good month. It’s not that you are not worth caring for, it’s that he’s a jackass. A guy like this is the reason NC was invented.
And don’t take the other guy staying with someone as indication of anything. She just puts up with his shit with less hassle. Do you really want to be her just so you can say you’ve been with a jackass longer than anyone else has?
I know. You’re right. I look forward to when I can look back on this and laugh. All of that behavior I shrug off saying that he just did it out of fear that I was leaving him and he didn’t mean any of it. I don’t think he did…but it means that he is still capable of being heartless…And he can’t handle emotions.
It is nice though, when I express that something is bothering me, most of the time he will listen and want to make me feel better. If i ask him to call me so we can talk, he calls me. Today I mentioned that I felt he was pulling away. I asked if he was hurt that I was leaving. He assured me that he has just been utterly busy, doing things above and beyond what he needs to do because he’s leaving this job soon and wants to tie up all the loose ends. He hasn’t been hanging out with many of his friends lately, which I’ve also noticed, so I wanted to make sure he was ok. He’s been a recluse lately, just doing his own thing. But he has had several chances to see me in the past few days and he hasn’t taken one of them.
I think we’re better off as friends. I think I see that now. I think it will be much better that way. No more physical intimacy. I need to stop seeing him that way.
THANK YOU FOR REPLYING. every word of advice helps immensely.
I agree with PurpleLily- I can’t stand seeing an ex AC happy with someone else. Considering they rarely change and get off on hurting people. Especially the one that lied to get sex. Dumped me for being “single”, then was with someone else straight away. WTF? To top it off he begged back months later. Then stood me up and blamed everything on me. Even though I wasn’t the one who wanted to be single. Then vetbally abused me by text and bragged about doing better than me. Why should I want happiness for this asshole? I want revenge and time didn’t change that.
fedup
don’t have sex with them for at least three months. I’d recommend six but I think that may be too much of a reach. it’s not about making them wait, it’s about making YOU wait. Give yourself time to get to know him. Let the libido die down and the fantasy. We pitch ourselves headlong at these men (in thought if not in action) and mentally meld ourselves to them. That state of mind need not be permanent. Ride it out (not sexually) and you will likely find yourself in calmer waters where you see him as a separate person whose moods, emotions, desires, actions are not a reflection on you. He’s not you, he’s not an extension of you, he’s not part of you. And you can be yourself, instead of putting forward the sex kitten/seductress/whatever. You can be what it is you are – down to earth, practical, creative, normal, flawed, ordinary.
Pitching sex can be an avoidance tactic. We try to avoid the vulnerability of getting to know someone, wondering whether they fancy us, the awkwardness of the first touch, first kiss, – we can circumvent all that by just getting down to it in one night. But by avoiding the discovery period we make ourselves very vulnerable indeed.
Yes, I know there are women out there who met a man online and got married after some IM’ing and sex. But we already know we are not those women.
You decided on whether or not to have sex based on something he said to you. These days, I’d want way way way more than that before giving over my body. As for revenge, as the old chinese saying goes – when you seek revenge, dig a grave for your enemy and one for yourself.
PS Don’t run off with the idea that if you’d waited this man would have turned into Prince Charming. If you’d waited and done your due diligence you would simply have flushed him before you got in too deep.
Grace – agree with you. I think if FedUp and I had waited for sex with the EUMs, we would have realised that they are nothing but crap – FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH.
I asked my therapist as well as my best friend if I could have saved this relationship if I had waited for sex (maybe he thought I was a floozy for sleeping with him within a month) – both replied “No, there isint a good man there, you would have only realised that he was a douche and dumped his sorry ass”.
I fiercely agree with Grace too! I even used to believe I “owed” those guys sex simply because they paid attention to me. I sometimes did it even if it felt horrible to me.
I’m so glad to hear that it’s OKAY to wait 3 or 6 months. I’d love to do that… In the past, whenver a guy was upset about my “no” after date 1, 2 or 5, I thought I had committed a “crime”. Sigh.
Haven’t posted here in a while. I don’t assume I’m “healed”, but I’m focussing on other parts of my life (mainly fighting for my goals at work). Change takes time I guess.
so true…i’ve felt the same EllyB. I wish i had waited with mine. I just allowed us to have sex a few days ago, after 3 weeks of none of it. I kind of wish I hadn’t….but the sick thing is that I think that if I don’t give it to him he will find someone else to do so, and the thought of him with someone else makes me utterly nauseous.
Well said Grace. So true. Yes, it should be about making ourselves wait, not about making him wait. It’s just the smart thing to do. It’d keep us out of all kinds of messes. It’s safer. It’s more self-caring. It filters out the users. There really are no down-sides.
Having said this, it’s not really an issue for me as haven’t had sex in about two years! Prior to that hadn’t had sex with anyone other than the now ex EUM since somewhere around 1997-8. Come to speak of it, I haven’t had a proper, bona-fide, ordinary boyfriend (i.e. one not of the variety spoken about here) since I was about 25 years old – that’s half a century! I think I have to admit that there is something very seriously wrong with me. I do feel much safer from the threat of assclowns since being BR educated (I think I would now flush them pretty fast) – but I think I am safe from all males everywhere! I do feel ready now t welcome a new and good man into my life – but can’t stand the thought of internet dating (when I was young -well before the www was invented – this stuff was done via the “lonely hearts” columns in the daily papers; as a young woman I’d glance at the columns and think. ‘what saddos’. I guess that old attitude has stuck with me and I don’t want to be one of those ‘saddos’ The thought of hearing myself say I met my boyfriend on the internet makes me cringe. No disrespect to the modern more enlightened internet daters out there – you go for it; no insult intended; I know the real issue is mine.
Ladies,
Your thoughts regarding sex and your comments fit perfectly with this post. Fedup, I’m truly sorry for what you experienced with this AC. One of Natalie’s recent posts just thwacked me upside the head…it is MY RIGHT not to have sex if I don’t want to. Duh. I think somewhere I internalized the message that it is HIS RIGHT to have sex if he wants to. Yikes. Having sex was my way of preventing the ‘unfavorable outcome’, rejection, abandonment, conflict, failure, which happened anyway. Fearless, your comment about the “lonely hearts’ columns made me howl. I was reluctant to do the online thing as I grew up in the same generation. I’m not advocating online dating by any means and I’m only 3 weeks in but I’ve learned so much about me thru my newly discovered BR lenses. I’ve got my substantive boundaries written and memorized. No sex without trust, respect, and commitment is co-equal with no MM/attached guys. You all helped me set those boundaries. Thank you. In online dating, there are “settings” which filter out folks. In addition, to my substantive boundaries, I’ve now had to deal with my “settings” such as age, geographic distance, young kids, and a myriad of other details I’d never thought about. Fearless, when I’m faced with thinking about these details, I remember a comment you made a while ago regarding seeking a relationship vs. seeking the man. With one tsp of self-respect and two tsp of self-esteem via BR, the online thing has really made me conscious of what do I want in a relationship vs. how can I twist myself into a pretzel to please the guy. In a convo with a guy, he asked “how do you know you are ready now”? Fair question. Without hesitation or even thinking, I responded “because I trust my judgment”. After, I thought wow. That’s thanks to Natalie and you all.
So shoot Natalie, I hope you will indulge me cos I want to sing off the roof top. I put so much energy into avoiding all of the things I feared such as “abandonment, disappointment, rejection, conflict, failure, decisions, risk etc.,” I didn’t give a moments thought as to how trying to prevent those outcomes actually created what I was attempting to avoid. I just got home from a date with a guy who was nice and nice looking (had hair). No banging on the crazy ex’s but midway in he admitted to lying about his age. He posted he was 49 but he’s 53. Sheesh…6 of one, half dozen of another. We are old. Then, wait for it, he followed up with this zinger, “I’m a liar”. Honest to god. In my FBG days, I would have dismissed that giant red flag. Thanks to BR and the thread Magnolia started a while back with regards to deception, I didn’t hear anything he said after that. It is so flipping true, they tell you who they are up front. I was listening with my BR ears rather than my dreamer imagination. Swear to god, I’m not making this up. The guy said, “I’m a liar”. Question: How is a self admitted liar who can’t even own being 53, going to reject and abandon me? Answer: If I give him the power over me to do so. Last summer, I was kicking my arse up and down my back yard for waiting around for a MM to leave his wife. This summer, I’m singing from my roof top thanks to you all. I’m so enjoying getting out there and it is a pain in the bum but I can face it. I’m sure my neighbors think I’m daft. Every single thing you have written Natalie and all of the comments are amazingly helpful. Even though ‘the one’ hasn’t materialized in 3 weeks, I’ve been having too much fun to notice. Oh and Fearless, the best thing about online dating, is the DELETE button which is the equivalent of FLUSH handle. That’s been the most fun. These guys really, really, really are NOT that special. That’s the other great thing, I’m not taken in by how important they are in their profession cos I don’t know them. That was my weakness in the past. They are just guys. Divorced, grown kids, some hair, and “a few extra pounds”. And some are liars! That was worth 2.5 hours, doncha think!
Runner,
Brilliant! Loved reading your two posts here! Did you tell the “liar” why you won’t be seeing him again, or did he get the message and not ask?
Yes, they do tell us who they are pretty quickly – we have to be listening, processing and willing to act on the information. I can almost imagine the look on your face – (that OMG look – and you trying to conceal it!) when he said “I’m a liar”! Jeez, just goes to show that in the experience of this guy, women don’t shouldn’t/wouldn’t/don’t see that as a problem – so neither does he! He must think it’s about the same as saying “I’m a plumber”. Sheesh. Here’s the irony – at least he’s honest enough to tell you he’s a liar (no such thing as an honest liar??! ha.)
Runner that cracked me up! I’ve had guys out of the blue tell me they werent liars but found out later they ‘lied’ about that. Lying about ones age has the main intent in deception, its like saying ‘my real self isnt good enough’. Sad that they/we feel that way, kind of like when we dont honor our own boundaries.
I thought the same thing, finally an “honest liar” instead of the dishonest kind. “I’m a plumber” made me snort. He responded this morning about having a nice time. I deleted. No sense in telling a self admitted liar that he’s a liar, right? Deception is a no go. sm, remember Nat’s post on doth the X protest to much! I felt a bit sad for him too. But NOT sad enough to stick around.
Runner I do remember that post and thought about my two ‘nonliars’ when I read it.
runner-
good for you, baby. you’re an inspiration. and yes, if we listen, they will tell. it goes by fast and we have to catch it, but it usually does come by, all on its own.
cc, you are right. It was really fast, like a one off. Meeting someone takes being totally present. I can see how easily I would have dismissed that significant admission in the past, pre-BR. Only to suffer the inevitable outcome. After spending two years with an “honest cheat”, I’m on high alert for “honest liars”.
Well played, Runner! When my recent acquaintance (nice, good looking, etc) said, “I’m being a deceptive shit,” I listened with my BR ears on, too.
I am, however, still a little amazed at what “good boys” these lying guys look like! I do remember that one of my ex’s used to make jokes about guys the skill of seeming cute and innocent in front of each other’s moms – some of them learn at … I don’t know … 14, when their moms think they’ve never kissed a girl when really they’re out downloading porn and pressuring girls from the wrong side of the tracks into sex … when does the lying start? And so many people (not just men) think lying is just part of how the world (esp the professional world) works …
No more i’m sure he’s just kidding, he’s just joking, etc and dismissing that info! I’m sure they think it’s just a little bad habit they’re confessing up front – like a weakness for cheese!
Weakness for fibs – no thanks! How much time did you have to spend watching his lips move after that?
There were another 2 hrs left in the evening after the “deceptive shit” confession …. yawn!
Magnolia, I remembered your “deceptive shit” comment and thought about you and BR. When I asked why he thought 49 was better than 53, he said “to attract younger girls”. He said he did meet a younger lady who complained that all the guys she has met just want sex. He admitted he did too. I watched his lips move for about 20 more minutes and suddenly got really tired. Escaped that unfavorable outcome fast.
Runnergirl, all ACs are the same! My AC number 2 said in his POF profile, that he is 43, not 49. And he confessed that he lied in order to attract younger women!!! I have to give up on men really, I don’t think any decent men left:-(
HS, there are decent guys left in all age brackets. Nat found one and so have many others who post on BR. I think it takes a bit more time and the ability to hit the flush handle quickly when you are faced with an AC/EUM and the inevitable outcome. One thing for sure, I’m not having sex with anybody as I can only barely deal with the reality of a liar, let alone trying to navigate through the oxytocin to boot. Why does my spell check want to correct oxytocin with oxymoron? Hang in there. Maybe take a break from the guy thing? There will still be plenty-o-guys when you return.
EllyB
Focusing on other things IS the healing. In my six years or more of singledom I bought a flat, finally got a job I like with a comfortable salary, found a church that suits me, made friends locally, got my fish, got fitter. Okay, still no boyfriend (though he did put his arm around me today – woot!) but at least I’ve got a nice home, job and friends. That’s not to be sniffed at.
Think about where we came from and what we achieved. Yay!
@Grace – and your story of singledom is inspiring me to be with it and heal my life as my priority…..not just psychologically from past hurts, but the nuts and bolts like working out my career!
It will be really hard – exercising MY OWN self control – but I am going to take the challenge of waiting to have sex the next time around, and seeing if the connection has the durability to take it. 3 months seems an eternity – ’til I remember my last “relationship” lasted but 3 months and apparently much of his interest in me was based on our sex life. That can tend to be the focus – duh – when indulged in too soon, and likely keeps many of these relationships from deepening – keeping them shallow where the dysfunctional men like to be.
“….and likely keeps many of these relationships from deepening – keeping them shallow where the dysfunctional men like to be.”
Well put. I suspect that is exactly it in a nutshell. It’s not that we can’t build a strong and deep connection having had sex with a guy early on; it just makes it less ‘organic’/more of a challenge and we’ll waste a lot of time and energy on the idiots before we find a ‘stayer’. You are so right; we are setting up the perfect conditions for attracting the emotionally dysfunctional man.
I had a reasonably normal, ordinary boyfriend (lasted two years) when I was about 24-26 years old. I had slept with him on the first night I met him – we went on to enjoy a decent relationship for a while but he never let me forget that I had slept with him right away – he didn’t like it one bit – cos it didn’t make him feel ‘special’ – it hurt his ego! And he had trouble believing I was special for same reason. When the relationship crumbled and arguments set in, of course I was a “slag”. Well, that didn’t last!
I am 51 yrs old now, still single, and if I could turn the clock back on all the men I have slept with in my life (not that many – fewer than twenty – and I’ve been single all my life!) I would sleep with none of them bar maybe two: my first boyfriend who was a lovely guy – we were together for six years (but too young to commit really) and the father of my daughter (and only because I wouldn’t give her back for all the tea in China!)
Just to add – that boyfriend who had trouble thinking I was special was only the second guy I’d ever slept with! But I was still a ‘slag’! Ha.
I have never understood the hypocrisy!!!! Why does this not apply to them as well?
I dont get it either. Why is there this hypocracy? I have never felt the pressure to have sex with any man – I am not attracted to men easily (I know to know them and learn about them atleast a little). So its usually 3rd date or beyond. No regrets because Ive wanted it, he has wanted it. Sex is also not a bonding ritual for me in the early days, it comes when there is a lot more intimacy and trust involved. In the early days – it is just sex.
And if he wants to judge me for sleeping with him too early on, go for it, I dont want to be with someone who is THAT narrow minded and has double standards.
Fearless, please don’t even think what he said… What a loser!
Yesterday, I met AC number 2 and he said to me that he “respecting me less ” as I slept with him on the second date and I shouldn’t have done that !!” AND that I what I said to him: “Look, I slept with you because I wanted to forget ex, and it helped me. Trust me dear, when I met a guy who I really like and RESPECT, I would never sleep with him at least for two/three months!” He was shocked. I do not care!
HS,
LOL!! Good for you! But, why are wasting your time on this creep?
So what does it make them for having sex early?
@ Grace
“Pitching sex can be an avoidance tactic. We try to avoid the vulnerability of getting to know someone, wondering whether they fancy us, the awkwardness of the first touch, first kiss, – we can circumvent all that by just getting down to it in one night.”
What a smart comment! Completely agreed.
With my most recent AC, when he was pressuring me non-stop for sex, in the rudest most guilt-tripping ways possible – “You’re killing me, you’re manipulating me, you’re playing me, moan moan moan,” and he wouldn’t listen to me explain I wasn’t ready, and he was making it very difficult for me to break things off with him, it just seemed *easier* to give in. In that way, I got to “avoid” doing what was for me incredibly difficult – breaking things off with him completely. And yet, I wasn’t true to myself at all. Something I definitely need to work on.
And this is a word to anyone: if a guy is pressuring you for sex, do NOT give in. Break things off immediately & don’t second guess it. He is a complete jerk and this is just God’s little way of letting you know before you get in too deep.
grace is right as usual.
someone here recently said (i don’t want to guess wrong who it was) that sex is a way of breaking the tension, of just getting to what feels like the next step. but often, there’s nothing wrong with the tension except our discomfort with it, and the next step often turns out to be a BIG misstep.
fedup – try to take it easy. i know its awful, and you’re pissed off, and hurt, and he messed with you badly, but try, try, try to not give him that much importance.
and what grace said about prince charming? correct. he’s a dick. no prince there.
FedUp-This man sounds like an awful character. He wants to do it all and blame it on you. Nice. Like dealing with man with a 4-year old’s emotional capacity. Im sorry you had to go thru such horrible treatment, he has no decency and I doubt he has or will ever do better.
I guess when it comes to revenge, with the now married EUM – I couldnt be bothered if he is alive or dead. It took a very long time to get there, where I feel/ felt nothing. But things like seeing wedding pictures etc, brings it all back(post above). So I need to work on that. With the recent EUM, it was just a few weeks ago, I still miss him (!!) and am not at the stage where I want revenge. Revenge is a painful emotion, takes so much of YOU away. Perhaps it is a process and one of the steps to healing is wanting to get revenge but eventually, we will get to a point where we are sure that their existence doesnt faze us.
I do strongly believe that it is about accepting what we feel, no matter what the feeling is. And at the end of the day, it is just a feeling or a thought. Anger, revenge, remorse. It doesnt meant that this will power you to action. When we are ready, we let it go.
For now, I would do anything to not wake up in the morning and cry, or sit at my desk at work and have tears running down my face. I even have to deal with the screwed up part of me that wonders why he hasnt contact me “does/did he not like me enough?” OUTRAGEOUS thought there. He is too screwed up emotionally and too self-absorbed to look beyond himself.
Best thing ever that he dumped me. I shudder to imagine how horrible it would have been if it went on longer…
fedup-
poor thing.
look – try, if you can, to see that he will create his own demise. don’t focus on YOU getting revenge, just sit back and know that he will sow the seeds of his own undoing.
and DON’T for one second be jealous of whomever he’s with now. that girl has a problem, more problems than you have – if she didn’t she wouldn’t be with him. AND she’s also with him, so that’s another problem. however happy they look, its still unhealthy, because he’s clearly a class-A jerk and a half.
and you don’t have to want happiness for him. i’m sorry that you have to see him. but if you can, try to put your focus elsewhere, on things that will make you immediately happy, things you love to do, rather than on him, because he’ll just piss you off.
and he doesn’t deserve your attention or any more of you. i know its hard, very hard. but you moving on is the best thing that can happen for you and the best revenge you can get.
There’s an app for that …
Yogurt… here’s today’s ‘little step’ I’m just gunna hug u back u back… please forgive me if I hang on a little tighter than I’m supposed to… I feel so needy… I know it’s normal for what I’m going through… but I don’t do needy well… anger I do great… needy – not so good… I’m so drained… chin up I guess… thanks for that x
Thanks Fenella. I’m managing a big bright smile just for you. I’ve heard that ‘acting as if’ helps 🙂
Truth-Freedom. Therein lies the pain. I too believe that in his final days & hours my message of hope for a better future, not so much for ‘us’ or our ‘relationshit’ but for HIM as a PERSON & his whole way of life, had finally gotten through. He admired me SO much. He wanted what I have. The kind of life I have. But to have that he needed to be WILLING to do certain things. He’d made half hearted efforts previously but never been FULLY willing. I believe that in the day before & only hours prior to his death, he finally received the gift of desperation. With an open mind & total willingness, for possibly the first time in his entire life, he was FINALLY READY to make the changes he needed to make to address his ‘issues’. That is what makes my grief SO profound. I had been waiting & praying for that moment to come for 20 long years. And when it finally came, I was so spent from the many battles which went before it, as well as incapacitated by ill health, that I was unable to be there for him. Looking back it was like one big game of chess. On the final move I feel as though *I* was the one who made a fatal error (by not calling when asked), even though I know intellectually, that actually *he* did, NOT me. What a tragedy. There’s just no other word to describe it.
Thanks runner. That’s it isn’t it. I didn’t have the words for it for it until you said that. ‘Death of a loved one.’ There it is in black & white. Sadly, there was no avoiding that outcome for him. I am still here. I will go on. His 11 yo son has lost a father. I have lost the man I hoped to eventually marry one day & have a child with (Please don’t laugh – obviously this would not have happened until & unless certain issues had been addressed). No matter how hard I tried or how much I saw it coming, he IS gone & this IS the final outcome.
Metaphorically speaing I described what has happened to one person as follows (remember this is NOT actual & is ONLY a metaphor):
He stands on the train tracks with his back to a train. I’m on the tracks with him surrounded by a protective white light. There is no such light protecting him. Quite the opposite. I have a a hold of both of his shoulders & violently shake him, & yelling “get off the tracks, a train is coming!” He nods & stares off into the distance, not moving. My yelling becomes more urgent. I start slapping his face from side to side, now screaming, “GET OFF THE TRACKS, A TRAIN IS COMING!” A look of terror fills my eyes as I contemplate the horror of the inevitable. I give it one last try, “GET OFF THE F*CKING TRACKS, A F*CKING TRAIN IS COMING DAMNIT! YOU ARE GOING TO DIE!!” Still he stands there, rooted to the spot, thinking he’ll be fine. In the final moment before impact, I leap to safety. And then he is gone.
So that was the negative outcome (metaphorically speaking) which I was trying to avoid. And despite my best fol nightingale efforts, it still came to pass. I hate flo nightgale. She sucks.
Never again will I date a person who needs ‘rescuing’ in any way, shape or form. If that, & maybe the ability to have a little more compassion for others, is all I have learned from all of this, then so be it.
@Purplelily and others
I think it’s perfectly normal to have hard feelings when an AC gets to move on to a relationship/marriage despite his crap behavior and here we are, good women, trying hard to do the right thing, stuck alone. It feels as though they are being rewarded for being hurtful a$%holes. However, nope, they haven’t changed and the current wife/girlfriend will have to deal with his issues eventually. Revenge happens when she gets clarity and once again he is forced to face/own his behavior. It’s hard when the happy couple lives in your area, attends the same social events as do you. As though you are being doubly punished, loosing him AND the social outlets you need to heal and meet new people. I serioysly thought about writing a fake response to AC’s online profile (he was hitting on me and involved with her at this time). Insert a pic of a cute helpless looking white chick and lay on the BS with a trowel.
, then dump him saying I
Blasted phone! Like I was saying, I thought of creating a fictitious on line bimbo that would later dump his ass because she was involved with someone else the whole time. However, at around this time I read a quote “revenge is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die” Very true. That and this dude isn’t worth the $40 US for home internet access.
I wish I had known about baggage reclaim while I was going through the last few months of my previous relationship. I was doing EXACTLY what Natalie was describing. It was my first relationship, my first love, my first time feeling all these feelings. And I was convinced I wouldn’t make it without him, I was terrified of losing him. Out of the two years were together, there was a period of six months where we were just miserable, and I just couldn’t see it–I was tunnel visioned.
I ended up being the doormat, excusing his lies and shady behavior. It literally ended up eating away at me. I had lost 15 pounds, I had massive anxiety, and I became a shell of myself by trying to make it work. I gave more of myself in a pathetic effort to save what we had, only for him to not value what I was giving him.
The morning I finally decided I couldn’t do it anymore, I had looked at myself in the mirror and realized my ribs were showing–That scared the living hell out of me. I was weathered, and a shell of myself both physically and emotionally. I now realize the fear of losing him was worse than *actually* losing him. It’s been about 6 months now, no contact apart from a couple of interactions. Turns out he moved on with another girl two weeks after we ended it, and he has already moved in with her. It solidified why I’m not with him–if he could move on so easily then he didn’t value me to begin with. I used that motivation to push on and apply to my dream program (which is at the LSE), so I’ll be in London. I am convinced I never would have gone if I was still with him.
I will definitely be going to Natalie’s workshops. Thank you Natalie, you’ve helped me pick up the pieces and I finally feel like myself again!
um…are we the same person???? Although I’m sure my EUM isn’t moving on (or so i think), especially since we are still involved…unfortunately…I went through the SAME THING. Our “relationship” was only 3 months, but I lost 20 lbs, I had anxiety 24/7, I literally could not physically eat, all I wanted to do was sleep so I would take xanax and benadryl to pass out…I stopped going to the gym, I stopped talking to friends except to ask for their help/advice, I did horribly in school because I couldn’t concentrate…It’s been 9 months that we’ve been involved, 6 months since I ended it the first time, and I’m STILL having anxiety. Although I can eat again and I can function, it still eats away at me.
About 5 months ago I finally had the balls to apply to graduate school in the UK, which is something I had wanted to do for years and years even before I met this guy, but I totally forgot my deep desire to go there because of him. I live in California. I was actually prepared to throw it aside just in case he came around and realized he wanted me. But I was accepted into a program in London and I will be going there in 2 months.
It’s my way out!! I don’t have the strength to stop talking or hanging out with him whilst I’m here, mostly because I’ve tried a couple times and he has manipulated me into coming back, because he knows I’m way too sympathetic.
I’m sorry you went through this. I wonder if we will cross paths in London, hopefully at one of Natalie’s workshops, which I DEFINITELY want to attend!!!!
Oh, and also, have you heard of the term “codependent”? I recently found out about it and it describes me to a T. I don’t have very good self esteem. at all. I feel like any relationship without overcoming pain isn’t worth it, so I find guys who suck and I try to be that magical girl who breaks through his issues so I feel amazing and validated. ew.
Hi
Purplelily
I.feel.angry too at my ex fiance caz he was noy good with me we seperated recently I was noy ecperienced.enough I m trying to gain sight hete
I understand u I do not think a person can change n I believe that his wife has to deal with his character so it is a blessing in disguise n maybe ur seperation for ur benefit it might be destine for u to meet with a better guy
Anne
My mom tells me same thing that its time for marriage all ppl who care abt us do same thing just say I l try I hope soon I l meet with the righy persom for me n do not let iy bitter u
Best regards
rana
or try this:
“why are you still single?”
“I’m waiting for the right man. And when I meet him I’ll be glad that I waited”
By waiting, I don’t mean we sit around at home bemoaning our fate, we enjoy life.
I am out every evening this week, Mon-Fri. Unimaginable a year ago.
Appreciate what you have now. Enjoy it.
For what it’s worth three friends have founds really great guys they married through dating sites. They had to sift through a lot of rubbish though were very focused & determined & flushed the dodgy ones very early on so save themselves being buggered around by time wasters. When I’m ready to start dating again I’ll give it a go & mix that in with other ways of meeting potential partners such as through mixed sex hobbies & social functions. I think id it’s not the only method you’re relying on it might be a little less disheartening. Just my 2 cents worth (& I’ve met the hubby’s & heard the inside info & really do seem like great guys. Interestingly though, also the types others might overlook ie one has a working class job, another is not a stunner in the looks department, & the final one is a little shy around ppl he doesnt know well in social settings. What my friends realised is that those things are only superficial. They chose substance over fluff & charm. So there you go!!
Teachable, I have friends who’ve met and married guys they met online too. And some were nice looking, all have good jobs but what is most important is that they all are decent men. I find there are the same percentage of azzclowns no matter how I’ve met them, online, bar, church, supermarket etc…
No doubt that a lot of people have found partners on there and it is always lovely when someone finds a good man/woman 🙂
I have decided to use the online medium as ONE of the methods to find someone. It is hard to find a honest person but I am sure they are out there. And yes, look beyond the fluff, the “za-za-zu” (I try to run from guys who give me this!), the charm, the ‘has a good job’ etc.These things dont promise anything, definitely nothing about what they are/will be like in a (healthy, happy) relationship.
Trust me, I have see the not so good looking guys, the socially anxious guys (recent EUM being both) and all I did was look beyond these factors to try a find the goodness that lies within them (generally what I do). Didnt go very well, did it? Hehe..
There are honest, humble, decent and kind human beings out there, I just wish I knew how to find one! 🙂
My life is complete without u
U wont make it complete
It is already.complete
But u would make it more complete
Rana – sorry to hear about your ex-fiance. I can only imagine how much it must be hurting and how hard it must be to cope. I send you hugs and warm thoughts. I guess there is only one way to learn and the only way out is through it. I do keep repeating to myself “Phew, you are not my problem anymore..go make another girl miserable. Im DONE with you”. And this is the honest truth, this is good for you (and me) but the fact that hurts if the trust we placed and that we cared (in your case, loved). It pulls on the heart strings.
The tears and pain are a part of it .Got to keep at it, it will only get better and you will only get stronger.
thank u purplelily n grace
u r so nice
my engagement was a period to know my fiance, i were not in love only attracted to him, n i know that seperation was best for me caz i would have had a miserable life, i am going on in my life- enjoying it – i m not broken-hearted.
i have read this article:
how to not get attached to a person in the early stages of dating:
it is not in your own interests n u won’t suffer later on
do not let yourself get too attached to that person for two reasons the first is that teh more emotional you’ll become teh more likely you’re going to do mistakes and the second is that you’ll suffer more if it didn’t work if you get too attached.
how can i stop it?
fantasies: when u start fantasizing abt a person ur mind gets attached to these fantasizes the more you visualize your future together the ore you’ll become attached to that person you like. just make sure you do notvisualize the beautiful future before you make sure that this erson likes you
thinking about him: teh ore you think about being with a person the more will you become attached to him even if you were not that interested in the person and u decided to make him like u there is a gr8 possibility that you’ll get attached to him as a result of thinking abt him more often
getting approval from frnds: one of the things that might make u get attached to a person quickly is to get approval from frnds
talking abt the person teh more u talk abt him teh more attached u shall become
forgetting abt the other options do not exclude other options there r always better persons even if you did not meet him yet
u can let urself get attached when u r sure he likes u or it is going to work out
u should know when to push the brakes or to go with the flow or u shall suffer a bad breakup
best regards
rana
Thanks, this is helpful. I feel that many/most of us are have a relationship with our thoughts rather than a person. It’s very much what we think, what we fantasize, what we fear, what we worry about, what we think we should do, what friends say, what society thinks, what we expect. This completely BLINDS us to the actual burgeoning relationship, good or bad.
We firmly attach ourselves to what we think the person is all about when we barely know them. It’s like a safety net but t is actually unsafe. I know this man. I know what he’s doing. I know what he thinks. Really? A few conversations and some touchy feely does not tell you very much about a person, however insightful and intelligent we think we are. I have been so wrong about the excrush that I’ve stopped trying to fill in the blanks by myself at home, on my own. I can only know him by spending time with him. This also has the helpful benefit of allowing me to get on with my life!
It’s not about suspiciously observing them for screw ups, it’s about taking the trouble to see who they really are, rather than expectantly waiting for them to fulfil our dreams or our worst fears.
PS red flags still apply – no marrieds, no attached, no broken promises, no putdowns, no lies, no hot and cold, no chasing other women, no inconsistency.
Another let down tonight. No promised phone call and now no answer. God, I wish I could be stronger and not so scared so I could take back control of my life.
I am feeling angry tonight though, rather than my normal upset.
Scarlet somehow I think he is playing mind games: “hard to get”…Gosh I hate that. Please stay strong, don’t contact him, he will be back eventually, but you will be in the different place. Trust me, it will happen one day, be patient x I have been there and done that, and keep asking myself why did I love this loser, he was not worth it…Keep reading Natalie’s posts and books, they are life savers!
Scarlet – sorry to hear that. I would be so angry too. That is absolutely disrespectful and NOT ok. HS is right, dont bother contacting him. You deserve more, someone who cant call when he was supposed to, well, sadly sounds like it will be downhill with someone like him.
Be angry, use it to fuel your mind and push him out. (((hugs)))
After reading all the comments, I just can’t beieve how we get played by these loser EUM.
We are all too eager to please, scared to be ourselves all in fear of losing something that isn’t worth having in the first place. We are being either used or duped by these men, who have no intention of getting married or settling down until THEY decide. Just setting the pace of casual reaationships/easy sex.
I too was dumped out of the blue after an extremely long reationship, with no intention of marriage or children, it was all on his watch.
Nerol,
If you are honest with yourself, you will know you were not played. Did he tell you that he didn’t want marriage or children?
I would examine why you hung on so long, as this will prevent you from repeating this situation. We have to be honest about our complicity. We’re not victims!
Hi Alison,
In a long term relationship, when the other person is career driven/minded, you give so much of yourself, waiting patiently for these things to happen because it’s not the right time.
Actually he did state he never wanted marriage or children when we had ‘the talk’. He also said he wanted to date other women. To which I had to accept, but knew he would be wasting his time.
I didn’t really exercise any control or power over my situation, well without coming across as a complete psycho, having a tantrum and smashing up his place but that’s not my style.
Neroli
Nerol,
That’s why I said you were not being duped, as you knew his position, and decided to stay. I’m not trying to harsh, but you stuck around when he was honest about not wanting a future, and worse yet, date other women. UGGGH!!!!
Time to examine why you stayed, when you both had very different goals. If you want a future with someone, please find someone who is on the the same track, not someone who you are hoping may change some day.
I really find it difficult to undo 25 years of bring told I need to be married just to do anything and just to leave home. My parents straight out lies that no one leaves home at my age. I think it’s really stuffed me up and I don’t want to end up in a dysfunctional and emotionally abusive relationship like my parents.
What pisses me off the most is rude coworkers asking me when I’ll have kids. Even though they know I’m single. Mind you they never give me any advice at all! That really annoys me. Next time I’m going to say what do you want me to do? Gey pregnant on purpose? My strict parents would probably cut me off.
@Broadsided
Have tried meetups. Here they revolve around hiking etc. which is good. However, I am much older than the men except for a few that are very needy and downright weird. I have tried to give a chance to an uneducated, right wing local, and a couple of older guys who were very bright but lied about their height and overall health (as though I wasn’t gonna find out!?); I couldn’t force myself to be attracted to them, nor should I have. Lying is lying. Whatever is going on here is definitely related to coming out west, cause this sort of thing rarely happened out east. I do still communicate with older guys on line, mainly to discuss ideas, something I rarely get to do here. If nothing else, there are lots of guys all over the globe that now know about high altitude organic farming.
Though I know I am not a horrible, ugly woman, I have really started to doubt myself. If my 80 year old ex, the right wing local, my at work serial cheating AC can find a relationship and I cannot, it makes me feel defective in some way even though I am the one working hard, being authentic, doing the personal work.
I completely agree with rana here, it is important to maintain some level of detachment in the beginning…initial dates- and just have fun. In fact, I try to date a few men (or at least chat to them, no sex!) at a time….for me this strategy works as long as you make the men aware..that way you aren’t pinning all of your hopes on one suitor. I find when you let them know that you are seeing other people as well and that you won’t commit until you are sure..it spurs them on. Let them know that you are in demand even if it’s not entirely the case. Men are naturally competitive.
I get where you are coming from Sarah but feel fairly different. I usually date one man at a time and I like it that way. If he wants to date others, that is fine, I tighten my boundaries a little bit more but still do what I would have done in terms of communication etc.
For me it is about what I am comfortable with – NOT about feeding his competitive nature. Thats playing games for me, from the start, with myself (and him). I dont want to be with someone who needs me to spur him on because he needs to feel that Im “hard to catch”. I think who I am and what I bring on the date should be what speaks about me (and same with him). I value and cherish my authentic self and the right man, I am sure, will appreciate just that (and more).
Im not a master at dating, I absolutely hate it..so who knows what is right…?! 🙂
‘People tell me that they’re trying to prevent being rejected by someone, so they start doing all sorts of ‘doormat missions’ that not only result in them feeling taken advantage of / abused and rejected, but also leave them struggling to come to terms with their self-rejection in the process.’
I think Im doing this but Im not sure. Ive just moved back in (2 weeks ago) with my boyfriend of almost 5 years and find myself buying him treats and making dinners and sweet things all the time. Part of it is I missed cooking and love seeing people enjoy my food. I am making an effort as I feel like I was a bit of a control freak before which im trying to control (irony right there!). Things still dont feel 100% the same as they did before as I still have this worry about being rejected but I know that when couples get back together it can take a while to rebuild all the burnt bridges. My question is how long do I wait? I know we are amazing together and can be again just dont know if Im doing as you have described in this post…
Amanda
“I know we are amazing together and can be again ”
The sirens are going off in my head. Can a relationship really be amazing and is it supposed to be? If it was that great why did you break up. Why are there burnt bridges.
How do you know you can get back what you had (assuming it’s worth getting back). How can you KNOW? Does he know and what’s he doing about it?
You cannot do it on your own.
Just be careful that you’re not trying to drive this solo and chasing something which isn’t there.
When I said amazing I meant, loving, best friends its so good when you feel completely at ease with someone and they love you even when they have seen u at your worst. I have him and he has me. When we broke up, he had been pushing me away for a couple of weeks and I think the stress of not being in a career but a dead end job and the deaths of close people in his life contributed to that, he shuts down.
He then got it into his head that moving abroad for a job would get him where he needs to be which is now not happening. I know we can get it back, because I want to and we have been through hard times before. I know what you mean by drive it solo, I dont think this is happening, Im seeing it from him too.
Amanda — People go through ups and downs all the time. Loved ones die, they lose their jobs. Not everybody runs off when this happens. Lots of people draw closer to the ones they love for support. Ask yourself, “Do I want to be with someone who tends to run away when the going gets tough??” (as you state he has done before.) What do YOU want? If you plan on staying and its AMAZING, do you KNOW that if you have children with him, and if a child has a serious illness or disability, will he stay, or will he run off? Will he run off if you get seriously ill? What does your gut tell you right now? There’s your answer.
Thank you HS and Purple Lily for your support. I will not contact him and get on with my own stuff. It just hurts.
HS, I don’t believe he is playing games. He is just unavailable, doing something else or just not that interested. The problem is that he tells me he loves me and that’s enough to hook me back in. Pathetic, I know.
Scarlet
He is playing you like a fish on a line.
Yes it hurts, but you’re hurting yourself as well by excusing his behaviour and dripfeeding yourself the lie that he has something to offer. He’s got nothing but more of the same.
He is not that special. Meditate on what that means.
Scarlet the reason I think he is playing games, because he keeps you “hooked”, why cant he honestly say to you: “sorry, I have other things to do, met someone else etc” Why say to you that he loves you? IT is mind games in my book:-(
I am sorry you feeling this way honey…((hugs))
Scarlet,
I agree with Grace and HS.
Ask yourself if his actions reflect someone who is in love. I think not. He is a waste of time!
Please ignore this crazy maker and find someone who wants to be a part of your life.
Yes cc. That elephant is STILL hovering it’s fat arse just above my head & it let’s out a giant fart every now & then to let me know it’s still there. It’s still been less than a fortnight so I guess that’s to be expected. Soldiering on. I try to focus on what the alternative may have been. If I HAD returned his call. Prolly would have just been more of the same old same old on my end & that was the absolute pits! His emotional abuse very nearly destroyed me! Toward the end, unbeknownst to me, I had developed depression due to my physical health problems. I reached out to him in a state of absolute despair. His response? Unbelievably, in an attempt to keep his lies secret from the Mother of his child (I was by this time suspecting he hadn’t been honest with me & told him flat out I intended to call her & double check) was to attempt to incite me to suicide. This in some states, is a form of murder prosecutable at law. Not only that, but he did that TWICE, knowing I was highly suicidal at the time. That’s what I mean by saying he really WAS an AC & a cretin. And yet the kind man I’d known 20 yrs b4 would not have dreamed of doing such a thing. So yeah, I cutt off from to save myself & when he contacted me for the sake of self preservation I did not reply. I knew when he behaved in those ways that his personality was being distorted by his ‘issues’ though, but still that is NO excuse. So yes a part of me is VERY relieved that his gone once & for all, but another part, the part that remembers who he used to be before his terrible decline, also very sad. It happens.
I dunno Amanda. Only you know as you’re in the sitch not any of us. What left off the page at me just frm that post was that when a guy knows that he loves us & that we’re ‘the’ one he wouldnt leave us for quids. not for jobs. not if his entire family was suddenly killed by midgits in a circus accident or even if he won the lotto & could afford to buy 10 luxurious islands! nope. wen he really loves us he does do stuff like, leave for any reason. someone doesnt sound right about what yr describing. i have a very bad feeling but hey… it’s yr life so i wish u well 🙂
Thank you so much Grace, HS and Alison for your comments. It’s exactly what I need to keep hearing. I am so afraid of the pain of ending it, I keep making excuses for his excuses. I am aware of my pathetic behaviour and I guess that is why I am now on this forum – so I can get some help. Please be patient with me as I keep asking for support to become stronger.
I’m also afraid I’ll never find anyone that I’m actually attracted to ever again.
Scarlet,
Of course you will. Please don’t use this as an excuse to not move on with your life. Can you honestly say he is a part of your life? Nope!
Perhaps, you’re scared to release this nonexistent relationship because you will have to address what brought you here, and make yourself vulnerable to a relationship where you will have to trust – this guy is safe, as there is no vulnerability or future.
scarlet
after six years of no-dating I find someone I am attracted to.
he is very attractive indeed and knocks the others into some sorry EU/AC ditch.
It can happen.
You don’t have to wait six years, but your fear is unfounded.
Grace, glad that you feeling better and even you met someone you found attractive, it is a good start! Hope he has matching personality:-) You are spot on, I think we will meet our men eventually, I am the same as Sarah, even not ready anything serious but go to dates and have good time, no sex, just talking and getting to know each other!
Aman a,
So, after six plus months of anxiety and holding him at bay I finally tell the excrush that I am divorced. He said “So?”
And then:
“Did you think that would change my mind about you?”
Er, yes I did.
So, we have crossed the big barriers that I put up in my mind and I find myself without the safety net of “knowing” that he will reject me. There is an actual possibility here of a proper relationship with someone who seems honest, trustworthy, open.
CAN IT BE?!!
I don’t know what will happen and it’s more unnerving than the MMs, ACs. EUMs, users and abusers. With them I knew it was a lost cause. With this I don’t know how it will turn out.
Bit scary.
I’m trying very hard not to grin….
Me too…It’s a happy grin.
Grace, where I’m from and at my age, everybody has been divorced, at least once, except the exMM. He just cheated.
IT CAN BE, if you let it. It must be unnerving though. As you say, with MM/AC/EUM’s we know the drill.
I picked my first peppers.
I may be wrong here, and I realize that we have all struggled in different ways with our emotional unavailability, but I disagree with this overwhelmingly positive response to Grace’s post. I am definitely very proud of you, Grace, for picking a good guy this time, and for making yourself vulnerable by letting him know about your divorce. (Like others here, I agree that being divorced doesn’t strike me as anything you need to worry about in general, particularly as yours was such a short marriage that didn’t result in children, but I realize it’s a barrier you have been holding in your mind, so that’s awesome that you put it out there.)
But as someone who played the “friend” game for 9 years, I count a 6-month anxiety attack over a guy – even one who may treat you well – MARTYRING oneself. It’s a form of accepting pain in the short term with the hopes that you’ll ultimately be rewarded for your efforts with a relationship.
I’m suffering right now, as I was talking to a guy for a couple months, and he wasn’t giving me clear signals, very mixed. I was very very excited about him, more so than I have been about any guy in a long time. But I ending up walking away from that situation completely, because I have promised myself I won’t play “friends” anymore, and he wasn’t stepping up to the plate and asking me out. (Whenever he wanted to hang out with me, he always made a point of inviting friends along as well.) Now I find out in the last couple weeks he has returned to an ex-girlfriend. This made me cry. After reading Grace’s comment, I started to second guess my decision, thinking maybe I should have hung in there longer, but I followed my intuition, and I believe I did the right thing for me.
I still think love shouldn’t have to be painful (particularly at the beginning before we even know if the relationship is worth suffering for), and that there is no reason why it should take your guy so much longer to see you as a prospective partner than it took you to see him as one.
Snowboard, I think you are projecting and also reading too much into what is going on here. I’m grinning because Grace is speaking up for herself and discovering that what she fears is not a big deal in reality. I’m not buying my hat, nobody is suggesting that she’s having some grand romance and I am happy that Grace is enjoying herself. That’s it. This may all come to nothing. So what?
Grace after six years is *trying* at a lot of things beyond trying to snare a man.
When you express concern for someone, empathise with *their* position. You are over-empathising and thinking more of your own position. It’s also good to be cautious but what is happening here is an example of something I’ve been writing about which will appear this week – we can express concern without ‘raining’.
Also I’m *entirely* confused – you were the woman who was involved with an abusive neighbour that wanted a visa and that was less than two months ago. Where in the mother of assclownville has this other involvement come out of the woodwork? Mind you, it does explain the switch in comment topic and reset over the last month or so as the neighbour problem seemed to vanish.
Yes, Natalie, I did misunderstand your comment; I thought you were grinning at the idea that Grace & he may end up having a relationship together – which they definitely may well, but I just wanted to offer a counter-view to the idea that playing “friends” is worth it.
I definitely *was* trying to empathize with Grace’s position, but obviously my understanding is filtered through my own experiences. I tend to illustrate my comments with anecdotes from my own experience to draw out better why I feel that way, and that’s what I was doing here.
That said, I do appreciate that Grace and I have very different personalities (she describes herself as frequently closed-off with men, whereas I have been far too giving/loving/puppydog-ish), and so my comments need to be taken with a grain of salt. And yet, I have always found her comments to me VERY helpful nonetheless.
I apologize, Grace, if you felt like I was raining on you. I hope my comment was useful to you (that was how I intended it) and I certainly have no desire whatsoever to hurt you!! It’s actually weird how attached I feel to Natalie, you, and some of the other posters on this blog whom I have been reading for the last two years.
I’ll explain more about the new guy a bit later. I hadn’t mentioned him more on here (I actually did one time in a reply to Polly somewhere…), because I have been trying to keep my emotions under control until there was something to get emotional about. 🙂
Snowboard
I didn’t see him as a prospective partner. How could I, I didn’t know him. I fantasized, stressed, worried, avoided him, put him on a pedestal, anaysyed him to death, and blew lukewarm and cool (not quite hot and cold). A huge part of me just wanted him to go away so I wouldn’t have to deal with it. I was being EU. I can’t give myself permission to be EU because of my issues and then cast him as a “villain” because he has failed to follow a script he knows nothing about.
It’s only NOW that I see him as a prospective partner (maybe), as I stopped doing the above and faced up to being honest about a couple of obstacles – my past and my age.
I’m not defending my decision, I feel it’s right. The bigger point I want to make is that our investment in these situations is nowhere near as great as we think it is. All our drama, expectation, hating on him, our hopes, our dreams are not the same as genuinely putting ourselves out there. There’s no reward for waiting and/or obsessing because these aren’t efforts. They’re an avoidance of effort. No, don’t chase him down but DO deal with reality and get on with your life.
Yes I felt bad initially. But did he make me feel bad? No, I did it to myself.
It may be The Relationship or it may not be, but the way is clear for us to figure that out because it’s not clouded by drama and my playing the victim. (I hasten to add that I am NOT a victim – if he’s victimising you – run)
The story with the most recent guy (B) is that I met him last December and we shared a class together this spring. I was immediately interested upon meeting him, but he didn’t express interest, so I didn’t allow my feelings to develop beyond that.
Then, in March, AC#3 and I started dating. When I broke up with AC#3 concretely the first time after two weeks, I ended up mentioning that to B in class, thinking my decision was permanent. The next week in class, B told me that he was going to break up with HIS girlfriend of seven months, whom I didn’t even know existed. Then, he did, apparently.
Then, B sent me a long friendly email, and we started writing back and forth. This was going on at the same time as I was breaking up and making up incessantly with AC#3.
After AC#3 moved away, B invited me to hang out, and we have hung out many times since then, and I have told him the full story of what happened between me and AC#3, and he has told me what happened with him and his exgf. I kept my eyes peeled, but I didn’t see any red flags (although I suspect he saw several from me).
And yet, he was always inviting me to hang out with other people, seemingly putting me in the “friend zone,” and because I’m not in a place emotionally with him where I can be just his friend, I started declining invitations in order to protect myself from pain. And apparently now he is back with that old girlfriend. Sigh.
P.S. This story has a complicated twist (my incredibly stupid decision to invite AC#3 to B’s birthday party and then be super-affectionate with AC#3 the whole night). That’s another story, but I mention it to avoid making myself look better in this situation than I was.
Snoboard, honey, too much drama, and you are creating it. It’s not love, not even affection, it’s obsession.
Please stop trying to get the ultimate validation from men. They CANNOT give it to you. You don’t need his/their love, you need YOUR love. By going from one asshole to another, you are just repressing the root of your problems. The problems will not go away if you don’t try to resolve them. You seem to think that solution to your problems has something to do with finding a nice guy. Even if you find the best guy in universe, he cannot solve *your* problems. There isn’t any red flags list that you need to check out when you meet a guy. The thing is that by learning to value yourself and to set boundaries, you naturally get the understanding of what are the red flags for YOU. It would be better for your well being if you stepped away from dating/the crush you mentioned for several months. Stop paying attention to men, pay attention to your needs. You need to recover from abuse, by that I mostly mean the original abuse, probably in your family/childhood, and to build a healthy attitude and self esteem. Only then will you be able to find a true soulmate, and enjoy the realtionship.
snowboard
There is a big difference in our situations – the number of people involved. There’s you, AC, B and B’s ex. That’s four. Keep it simple – one man, one woman. I guess there’s the multiple dating approach but if you were trying that, you were doing it wrong.
As Nat says – no attached people and no visible exes. That applies to US as much as him.
When we bounce from one person to another, we’re trying to avoid something. Take time to figure out what that is. It’s only when you deal with what you’re avoiding that you’re released from the compulsion to make every man who comes your way into The One. Even one who fails to tell you he has a girlfriend (FLAG) and has only been broken up a hot minute before seeming to make advances (FLAG); and an extremely obvious AC (FLAG). And there’s your own FLAG of playing off two men.
This was never going to work on any level. Being friend-zoned was the least of your problems. You’re not seeing the wood for the trees.
While I was with AC#3, I was under an incredible amount of stress as he was my next door neighbor and he was literally hounding me. I kept getting back together with him, temporarily deluding myself I was “happy,” temporarily deluding myself he wasn’t an AC, then realizing he was a psychopath and breaking up with him, rinse and repeat. I can’t explain my behavior at all, other than just to say that I was just under an incredible amount of stress, and he has a very overwhelming personality.
I wasn’t playing two men off each other; in fact, I purposefully invited AC#3 to B’s birthday party to be clear to B that I had a boyfriend and just wanted to be friends. This was me, specifically trying NOT to be an AC.
But of course, I was thinking “morally” but my emotions were more complicated, and when AC#3 finally moved away, I could see more clearly and remember I really did like B and had from the first time I met him. When he invited me to hang out the first time, I was delighted.
B is not an AC, far from it. He’s actually an incredibly sweet person. And his exgf wasn’t in the picture while we were hanging out. They weren’t in any form of communication at that time; I don’t know anything about what happened there, just briefly heard they’re back together through the grapevine. Also, it wasn’t a red flag that he hadn’t mentioned her to me earlier when they were in a relationship because he and I barely knew each other; we just shared a class together.
I stepped away from the situation because I can see he just wants to be friends, and I am protecting myself from making the same mistakes I have made in the past.
Grace: Quite frankly – I (like most people in here I guess) never expected your divorce to be a problem!
But I’m struggling with similar issues in another field. There is this guy with whom I’ve been (mildy) flirting for months over the phone while discussing business issues. Some weeks ago, we met in person again during an event (I hadn’t seen him in months), and there was quite a bit of chemistry between us I guess…
Anyway, during our next phone conversation, he made a bit of small talk about vacation, hobbies… I got to know he loves watching soccer and vacationing in the sun. I suddenly became very withdrawn, because I thought: “He is so normal, and I’m so weird. If he hears about MY hobbies, he’ll either hate me or ridicule me”. I love aimless walks in big cities, unusual exoctic dishes, thrift shopping, open source software, and I write computer code in my spare time.
In the past, family and former friends gave me endless speeches about how “unnatural”, how “weird”, how “unhealthy” my hobbies and interests were. I still feel guilty because I refused to change.
When I was chatting with that guy, I briefly thought: Maybe I have to change my hobbies quickly to become “eligible” for him? Maybe that’s what an “available” woman would do?
Luckily I didn’t do that!
Anyway, I didn’t reveal anything about myself to him. I became withdrawn instead, and now I guess he doesn’t even understand why.
Maybe he WOULDN’T hate me for who I am? Why am I so sure he would reject me? Maybe some people would think those “flaws” of mine are really qualities?
I think it’s a bit like Grace’s divorce. But I’m still too scared to take a chance!
“I love aimless walks in big cities, unusual exotic dishes, thrift shopping, open source software, and I write computer code in my spare time.”
Lady!!!
You are the dream girl of so many guys I know! A foodie who doesn’t need prada who likes writing computer code in your spare time! Girl, get yourself to grad school and start flirting!
Now, joking aside, I want to say hold up around the he’s-so-normal thing. I have been there – hell, I still am there – I am a non-white girl who likes to collect rocks, build Lego sets and write about modernist poets who liked geometry in her spare time, also frugal, and can’t even be counted on to have her legs shaved on any given day. Other bookish nerdy types find me just fine. I think if Bill Gates were single he might check me out, and he’s no slouch. What’s your definition of normal?
Around here it’s squared-jawed forestry and oil business guys with pleasure boats, kayaks and five-bedroom mountain ‘cabins’; or young Asian-Canadian urban professionals. If a guy being into you feels like a stretch, it’s because it IS. Many dudes WANT the hottie/housewife who only reads glossy magazines, does her nails and Pilates, and gets excited about Creuset cookware and sex toys. Is that what you think is normal?
I mean, I can do and do do all the “normal” things (which basically often just means expensive or sporty things), but I LIKE to do the far-out things, and that makes me ME. What you like makes you YOU. Why would you want anyone who wants you to conform to some version of “normal”?
There are people with enough sense to love the fact that you’re not some cookie-cutter person. Your family is coco-nuts.
Man – if you understood what a catch you are – you’d be worried guys are only into you because they think you’re going to write the next new zillion-dollar app 🙂
“…likes to collect rocks, build Lego sets and write about modernist poets who liked geometry in her spare time, also frugal, and can’t even be counted on to have her legs shaved on any given day.”
See, that sounds brill to me too (apart from the legs, which sounds pretty normal! Isn’t it?)
I think that having a passion for ANYTHING that isn’t based exclusively on the attaining the approval of someone else is fab… the scariest thing for me about the collapse of Life As I Knew It was that I really had very little attitude or application for anything beyond the ubiquitous Catching Of A Man. And I wasn’t even very good at it!
Magnolia: I agree with yoghurt, the story about the legs is normal. And I get excited about Creuset cookware too. But then, nobody is perfect, right? 😉
I admit I had a few “nerdy” friends who proclaimed their love for my “quirks”. Unfortunately, they turned out to be toxic anyway. I think it’s like NML says: This is not really about shared interests or hobbies.
This guy doesn’t seem to share my hobbies (at least not those), but maybe that isn’t the point. Even if I don’t look that “nerdy” from the outside, it might have occured to him that I’m not excactly cookie-cutter either. If he didn’t like it, he wouldn’t have spent that much time chatting with me over the months I guess. And btw, I enjoy chatting with him too, even if we never discuss advantages and disadvantages of the various editors to write computer code in.
Quite likely, nothing will come out of it anyway. I just take it as an example how we could trap ourselves in our own “assumptions”.
EllyB
fwiw, I think that your hobbies sound ace and they certainly beat mine, which currently include Baggage Reclaim, the washing-up, staring at the scenery from my kitchen window (cos it’s lovely) and occasionally painting a fish for what will hopefully become a big fish collage. Maybe. Sometime in 2015.
That’s not the big self-loathe that it might seem – circumstances dictate and anyway, I’m starting to feel grateful for the time and space to sort out my head. I just wanted to show that it’s all relative. Your hobbies seem super-exotic and interesting to me, and if as I read them I thought: “wow, how brilliant! That person sounds really interesting!”
I’d’ve thought anyone worth their salt would see them as indicative of a thoughtful and adventurous soul. And people not worth their salt? Their opinions can Bog Off.
Yoghurt: For what it’s worth, half a year ago I would have claimed “I have no significant hobbies”, even if I already had all the hobbies I mention above. I simply believed “anything that isn’t either expensive or sporty doesn’t count” (thanks Magnolia, for putting that into words!).
Btw., if I had any painting talent, I’m sure I’d put some kind of impressive collage on my walls ;-)! Lovely idea!
Gracie!! I often wondered if folks at your church were judgmental of divorced people, from the way you spoke of your own … I thought you already had information that told you that people in your community looked down on divorced status … I’m glad to know that you do have people around you who don’t assume things about you just because you’ve had that experience.
You must be much more guarded in “real” life than here at BR, understandably! But glad to see you taking baby steps at lowering that guard. I for one am sure that someone who genuinely wants to get to know you will see not “a history” but the wisdom and grace that we at BR are lucky enough to get to see.
magnolia
I judge myself way harsher than anyone or God has ever judged me. I cringe and wait to be judged, and what I find is … grace.
There are Christians who are adamant that the divorced can’t remarry. I convinced myself that the excrush must be one of them because a) his background is very traditional and b) it meant I could stay in the comfort zone of singledom and avoid risking another relationship.
Thanks for your comment. It’s really good for me to get clarity from my self-condemnation. You could do the same for yourself, my dear.
grace
Hope it’s not too off-topic but just want to say THANK YOU for that… I found it really helpful. I’ve just suddenly started rediscovering my own faith (admittedly in a “what the hey…? I take my eye off the ball for a couple of days and God sneaks in?” sort of a way) and the issue of my own self-condemnation/ false guilt is one that I’m working on at the moment.
I haven’t got so far as to have any sort of thoughts on how it’ll affect my future relationships – they aren’t a pressing concern right now – but my tendency is to visualise a single-motherhood sackcloth-and-ashes atonement (if I’d had a past life, I probably would’ve been one of those monks who wrapped barbed wire around their thighs). So I’m finding your comments really useful in retaining a bit of balance/not haring off and fretting about the future too much.
Oh, and just in case you’re wondering whether your posts on the subject have been a help to me in getting to this point… yeah, they have. Thanks again xx
grace-
ok, but … can we just say ‘screw all that’?
just start to have fun. go slowly but have FUN.
and please, stop faster with the self-condemnation, and please stop mentally submitting yourself for others’ judgment. look, i respect whatever your religious values are, i do. and i’m a prize self-judger. but yes, the clarity here is that your (sorry) continually crucifying yourself is just a way of keeping you EU – from you.
here are my two cents, for what they’re worth: the opposite of guarded, in our cases here, is not open, its *confident*. confident that you are unique and wonderful. confident that you deserve love, LOVE, particularly from yourself. confident that if you make a mistake, which we all will, you will learn, forgive, and move on anew. confident that you can trust yourself to do all of the above.
oh, i’m so happy for you that you’re at this juncture. so, please. just have fun.
p.s. am i allowed to say this yet? he sounds lovely. …too soon?
Yeah Grace!! Next you’ll have to reveal you’re a WOMAN with emotions!! Yikes!! Enjoy the ride!!!
happy for you grace. wishing you all the best. impressive you held that info under yr hat for 6 mths. now that’s having boundaries…
otherwise I failed my first proper study today, due to lack od sleep last night, (Im awake until 7 am ish EVERY night – please dont fllod me with suggestions about this. I dont have to reply to them & it’s due to my physical health issues I have the sitch in hand. I’m hopeful tonight will b different. However I digress) Just one more thing that came flooding bk into my memory abt now deceased xAC tonight. I don’t think of him all the time anymore but this came at a vulnerable moment when my mind was not otherwise engaged – in the bath. He tried to get me to feel sorry for me & wanted me to give him what to me was a large some of $ to pay off his credit card debt, so he could quit work in a shorter time frame & seek inpatient treatment for his ‘issues’ ($ appox 20,000). I was ahead on my mortgage payments & he wanted to use that $ to do this. In the first instance I said NO WAY (I’d worked damned hard for that $ & although I earned more than the average wage because I worked two jobs at the time, the amount was more than 1/2 of the average annual wage! I was also desperate to pay my mortgage off so I could focus on my studies on more of a fulltime basis). A little while later, we’d had an almighty row (caused by his AC behaviour) & I was tempted to offer to LOAN him the money in a desperate attempt to smooth things over. I knew I had lost my motherfreakin mind!! I went straight to my therapist & said please, I cannot give him this $, I know I will NEVER see it again, talk some sense into me! Thank goodness she did (& fair enough – I didn’t exactly need a whole lot of convincing)!! It was then that I first changed all of my numbers in yet another effort to maintain NC. I got strange calls where someone kept hanging up. We werent talking at the time. I think it was him trying to work up the courage to try to swindle me out of that $ but then hanging up because he just didn’t have the courage to go through with it. That’s why I changed my number. Fast forward to the moment where I finally contacted the Mother of his Child to check if he had really been single the whole time he had claimed to be. NOW I learned, he owned A LATE MODEL BMW that had been bought for him as a GIFT by the Mother, of the Mother of his Child…
Anyway long story short he’d never mentioned owning the late model BMW & in fact deliberately kept this info from me so he could try to scam me out of $ to pay off his creadit card debt!! I’m sorry he lost his life but he made his choices. The fact is that this man was a liar, a cheat, a conman, & a theif (he told me he used to steal $ from his work – I was so aghast I almost gave the owners of the busines an anymous tip off!). In short, I am relieved to know I will never have to deal with him ever again. There may be reasons for why he ended up the way he did but they’re not excuses. We all have our troubles in life. But some of us take our lemons & make lemonade 🙂
“And the funny thing is: Many of the ‘unfavourable outcomes’ that we bust our tails trying to prevent are really not that unfavourable and are actually blessings in disguise, teaching us positive lessons about ourselves about where we may need to adapt our habits and thinking, and removing us from people and situations that are not meant to be part of our future.”
This! I needed to read this today so badly. My MM/EUM is moving to another state at the end of the week & my life has been tumbling out of control since I’ve started this “death march” countdown. I am aware that I am blessed with wonderful family & friends, a warm home, & a successful career; however, all of this doesn’t stop the pain I know I will feel as he walks away for the last time.
He has promised that this move will enable him to get situated and prepare for a future with me, but things haven’t been sweet & wonderful for awhile & I know we will probably never physically see each other again. Did I mention he is still married? Yet, I still can’t find the strength to move on from this “dream” of us being together. I am shaken to my core knowing this. Thank you so much for providing even the tiniest bit of light at the end of this dark, dark tunnel. I am hoping I can find some peace during this mess that I’ve enabled.
I just WISH I wasn’t posting from my iphone all the time, half the time w/o my GLASSES (which means I can BARELY SEE), so ppl realised I am actually literate! lol It’s all just typo’s from these REDICULOUSLY small tiny buttons. Oh well. I do apologise. I know it must make for awful reading!! Ps As time goes on I keep remembering MORE of the bad abt ex now dead AC. No point posting it though as I’m now in SERIOUS study mode & cannot afford to lose valuable time on BR. Luv to u all till nxt time. PPS his ‘ghost’ has (almost) finally stopped haunting me!! Yayy!! Seems to have cooincided with a long list of the rap sheep of the heinous things he did to me whilst ALIVE! He never was one for things like accountability. Suffice to say if I passed him hell, after all of the many awful things he did, I’d keep right on on walking!! xx
The other thought I had in the bath yesterday, & it wasn’t mean spirited but just me musing, was how I used to tell my bestie he would end up dying alone because no-one would want to be with him in a romantic r.ship on account of the fact that he truely was, in the end, such a cretin. Well again, it pains me somewhat to say this, but that is EXACTLY what indeed ended up happening. He couldn’t be honest with me so I said bugger off. He wasn’t honest with the Mother of his Child so she too told him to bugger off. He then tried an old ex/g.friend he’d been with decades ago after me & she got rid of him within mere weeks at which point, ultimately, just as I predicted he died a premature, sad & lonely death. So to all the AC’s out there reading this. Your horrible behaviour & lifestyle really DOES bite you on the bum in the end. It’s just a matter of time…. and honestly those left behind as much as they once you loved you long long ago, do not regret that you’re gone, because for us, after all of your abuse, it’s actually a relief.
Wow. I can’t believe I actually sad that. Finally. Just hint of a tear came to my eye reading it back to myself. Not actually crying. But just my eyes getting moist ya know. But this time it’s different. This time it’s for ME & all he put me through (notwithstanding that I ‘allowed by putting myself in harms way – bear in mind he misled me about so many things right to very end – so there was much I didn’t KNOW or I’d have beenbout of there MUCH sooner. I’m not perfect at r.ships – but I’m not rediculously dysfunctional either!) I can’t wait till my exams are over and I can let this out properly. One tear just came out. Oh. Two. That’s all I can manage for myself right now, but I did my best Sunshine. Hope I did good. It’s a start. BIG breath out… luv to all & thankyou for your support through this difficult time. I know I’m not being of much help to others right now. I feel like I don’t have much in reserve to give. I trust ppl understand. xx 🙂
FX….I’ve just read your comment. It warms me that my words meant something to you. Coming here is a sanctuary where I have learnt so much through the experiences of fellow posters and my gratitude to them/you and Nat is immense…life-affirming in fact. If I say anything that reaches anyone then I feel I’m giving something back and perhaps my multitude of shitty choices and consequences may have not been for nothing! Xx
I ran out of things to FEAR when it comes to rejection because every “excuse” in the book had been tossed at me already.. Man you can actually get to the point where you just expect at all times there to be something.
Most are up for a good time.. but NOT a relationship and would LOVE nothing MORE than to have you either degrade yourself by playing a whore.. OR degrade yourself by being the lady in waiting – that can’t move on without loosing him, But if your waiting your still loosing him.
But I think mostly.. RUN like hell as soon as they say your getting too serious, their not looking for a relationship right now.. and you even start to get that FEAR that one-day your gonna get so p*ssed that your going to leave..HARD lesson to learn – leave as soon as your starting to THINK it can maybe reach that point because it probably WILL reach that point.
Go ahead and break NO contact really.. Your gonna eventually HATE him and all he’s done anyhow to where there is nothing left but anger and untrust of him and his stupid fear of commitment.. Yes let’s GIVE them a BETTER option than US.. ( Life without us in theirs, Life without their EGO shag, back burner back up plan. ) I mean if we really want to get what we want, Maybe we will need to do this a million times and a million times FASTER every damn time, until one actually has the GUTS to decide that YES matter of fact he DOES want us in his life enough to DO something more than give lame excuses!
What if a guy says that he doesn’t know if he’ll ever get married, doesn’t like relationships, etc., but deep down I know that that’s what he wants? If that’s not what he really truly wanted, then why did he say he likes to go on dates and meet people? Why did he go head first into this relationship with me, granted about a month into it he pulled back immensely? Did he want to try to see if he could do it? Was he genuinely into me?
I keep imagining him actually being able to commit to someone in the future and it rips me up inside. He says that he “loves me” (of course, actions don’t match words), is apparently not wanting to see anyone else right now because he “has someone who wants to date him” but apparently i guess he thinks he is incapable of it? I have no idea. I honestly have no idea. He is an incredibly intuitive person, and he is aware of what he does. He is aware of his subtle manipulations, of how he puts others down to build himself up…Is he aware of what he is doing?
I just feel so shattered and confused. It’s been 9 months of this. I know it’s partially my fault. I keep trying to understand him and know what I need to do to break down the walls or to help him…totally ridiculous and codependent. I just don’t understand him. and it’s driving me crazy.
just found this entry…hahaha
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/normalising-bad-behaviour/
oops
cestelle.
I know lots and lots of men who like to “go on dates and meet people”. Some of these men are already married, some have a girlfriend (supposedly), some have long term partners that they live with, some are now in their fifties and are doing the same things they were doing when they were in their twenties (players, jumping about the town like jack-the-lad pulling different women every week and thinking it’s a big laugh).
He’s telling you and showing you he doesn’t want/doesn’t do relationships. Believe him. Stop thinking you know better; you don’t know better; stop trying to fix him. He doesn’t need fixed. He doesn’t need to see things more clearly, you do. read Nat’s ‘Florence Nightingale’ posts
Thank you for your response. I know I’m severely codependent.
See, he’s almost 29, apparently been hurt twice, been degraded and tested in the most incredible ways (i’m not going to go into detail, but it basically tore him to pieces emotionally)…He’s a workaholic. He even admitted that he makes himself busy so he doesn’t have to deal with everything else (emotions)…But yet I’ve seen him cry, I’ve helped him through rough times, I’ve seen his outbursts (especially when I want to leave)…those are emotions, right?
The sad thing is that I’m starting to feel guilty, like it was all of my fault. I know that I am pretty emotionally unavailable myself…I’ve had opportunities for real relationships, but I was too scared. I need to feel like I have accomplished something for it to be worth it. Sad. So if I win the heart of an EUM, I am amazing and the love is true. I have issues. So…if I hadn’t had all of my issues I think that the relationship would have worked. Wtf. However….I’ve tried to break it off three times now, and each time he gets me back.
I know I would be better if I could flush him out. It’s gotten to the point where if he doesn’t contact me during the day I’m almost relieved, but if he doesn’t by the end of the day I start to panic, and when he does contact me I either get sick to my stomach or a huge rush of relief comes over me.
Validation.
How deluded am I?
oh wow, reading a florence nightingale post right now.
how embarrassing.