Recently, I’ve had quite a few people expressing their concern about ‘immaturity’:
“I’m trying to remain on good terms with them. If I stop being friends, I’ll look like I’m being really immature and that I’m throwing all of my toys out of the pram.” So you’re going to force a friendship while you internally writhe in breakup agony?
“Isn’t defriending on Facebook / unfollowing them on Twitter really immature?” – Note that Facebook and Twitter are just websites, not gods. These facilities exist to give you control over who you are connected with and to also reflect the severance of a relationship. In olden times, would you sit outside their house watching their life unfold? Er, no.
“I hoped that my obvious discomfort would put him off as I didn’t want to sound immature by saying something” – She also worried about being rude, rejecting him, and then making things awkward, and so ended up having sex on the first date. She’s 45 and was on her first date after a divorce.
“It’s very, very immature to expect someone to be honest about their situation – this is not how relationships work. For a start, me telling her from the outset that this wasn’t a relationship and reminding her practically every two weeks, should have been more than enough……We’re both adults – I didn’t need to tell her about the other girl! Don’t be ridiculous!” – He also added that it would have been ‘mean’ to be honest.
“I don’t want to look silly” – This is the line of defence for everything from not declining threesomes that one doesn’t want to do, to why someone doesn’t want to express their unhappiness at being punched in the face.
When you’re accused of being immature about something, while of course it might be a genuine case of being under emotionally or intellectually developed, or not acting your age, most of the time, they’re effing you over in the name of being ‘grownups’ and then claiming you’re unschooled in the nuances of adult relationships.
It’s like “Just be a man / woman about it!” Er, what? What you don’t realise is that someone who would sell you down the river if it meant serving their own needs, is actually claiming to have the high ground on you and implying that you should listen up and take note from someone ‘in the know’.
Next thing, you’re supposed to leap up and take part in a three-way with a gimp suit or head into their whipping chamber without a backward glance in the name of being ‘grown up’ about things.
And let’s be real – isn’t this whole covert, and actually sometimes quite aggressive attacking of one’s ‘maturity’, how many women in particular, find themselves knee deep in sexual and other dangerous situations out of fear of saying NO and being far too worried about how they’re perceived? Hell, it’s how some women end up being put on the game by their so-called ‘loving’ ‘partners’ in the name of helping them out of a sticky patch.
When you think you’re being ‘immature’ or even ‘frigid’ for not wanting to go along with something, it’s actually a sign that you’re engaging with someone in conflict with your values and you’re doubting and basically not listening to yourself, because you’re too busy trying to hold onto or gain their approval.
Being accused of being immature, takes most of us back to being teenagers and that in itself may be more than enough to send us down the path of pleasing others so that we can avoid resurrecting old rejection wounds. Let us also not forget the fear of the conflict and criticism that may arise off the back of it.
As a teenager, when I didn’t cave to pressure, it was out of fear of the consequences, often because some of them were known (such as the perils of taking E) and I’d rather risk social consequences than try it. Sometimes it was my own discomfort and what I didn’t know was my own developing values speaking up.
It didn’t matter why someone thought I should be or do something – what mattered was why I didn’t want to. Of course over the years, I said YES most of the time, because my own opinion stopped mattering to me.
How much does your own opinion matter to you?
When I’ve caved to pressure, it’s because of a perceived reward, or fear of consequences including change in how I’m perceived, rejection, or conflict. Sometimes it was naivety (or believing I was naive) and sometimes it was fear of being hypersensitive.
The truth is, it’s not immature to not want to text all the time and to not want to believe that someone who you don’t see very much or who keeps themselves at an emotional, communicative, and physical distance, is going to be a prospect for a full-on relationship. Is it really going to go from that to, for example, moving in?
It’s not immature to not want to go to a sex club (especially with a complete stranger or someone who has previously mistreated you), nor is it immature to not want to sleep with their friends, or go swinging, or just not want to have sex. IT IS YOUR RIGHT!
It’s not immature to expect honesty. Anyone would think you were asking them to diarrhoea (yes that’s what I said) their thoughts and give you the code and the key to their mind. Honesty in relationships is about not lying to and deceiving someone about the true nature of the relationship, your intentions, or any facts that would not only alter existing information held by the other party, but would remove the needed mutual love, care, trust, and respect required for a healthy relationship.
It’s also not immature to not want to be friends straight after a breakup – it’s normal. It doesn’t mean you’re enemies (unless you actually are) but surely someone can’t expect to literally climb off you and the relationship and for you to just switch over to friendship mode? It’s like “We’ve just broken up! Would you mind giving me a chance to pull my pants up and give me some breathing and literal space so I can come to terms with what’s happened? Geez!”
Calling someone immature for being unwilling to play along with doing or being something that they don’t want to, is passive aggressive and at times outright bullying. Even worse, it is a sign of emotional immaturity on the part of the offender, that they are unable to empathise with your position and respect it, even if they don’t agree with it and it signals a parting of the ways.
Regarding yourself as immature for not being able to work up the appetite to screw yourself over, or for not being OK after the fact of screwing yourself over, is disrespecting yourself. You’re implying that having boundaries, having choices, and saying NO (irrespective of whether it makes sense to or suits the other party), whether it’s because it’s your preference or because you’re exercising your human right, is immature. Why agree with someone’s shadiness?
Is saying NO and having boundaries such a terrible thing?
This isn’t high school. You’re a grownup now and you don’t have to be or do anything that you don’t want to. It would also be a damn sight easier if instead of trying to force yourself to have someone’s values, or trying to convince them to change theirs, that you honoured your own values and found like-minded people who don’t trivialise your well-being, and who respect where you’re coming from. Maturity isn’t about doing what other people tell you but about being yourself and living your own life with authenticity and integrity.
Your thoughts?
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You are my new relationship guru. Breaking off a 15 year on again off again romance has been soo painful, but i know it is opening me up to have a fully emotionally connected relationship in the future. I’m doing my work, addressing my issues and living life in a whole way. I de friended him and all his friends.. onward and upward!!!! immaturity be damned ……
I’ve believe that mature people don’t need to call each other by labels – “immature” or anything else – to invalidate the other’s opinion or make the other feel substandard or remiss, or not with it. In short, they are not respecting them or their point of view.
My last future faker guy labelled me “mean” (first person in my life to call me that) for I made a flippant remark to him out of hurt, after he abruptly dumped me and was with another woman a week later. He used the label “mean” to make me out to be the bad guy, so he could move on, and not use words to simply tell me that what I said he’d taken offense to (for which I would have apologized) – and most importantly – it freed him of having to apologize for the criticisms he threw at me before leaving, or own up to any of his behavior. Prior to this he’d had nearly 3 solid months of niceness, love and affection from me (and soup when he was sick) – but I guess that was all water under the bridge to him.
I think these derogatory labels just inflate their sense of self and make them feel superior, and also send a signal to us that these are people who really don’t care about us, our feelings or opinions. They want what they want. I also think people inclined to do this tend to become verbally abusive, as my ex husband was. (He loved the word “idiot”.)
I love this post very very much 🙂
OMG! Natalie, this is so right on! I cannot tell you how many times I have said yes to something I did not want to do or did not believe in, just so the other person or group would be satisfied. NO MORE! It is amazing how fast you find out who your friends are when you stand up for yourself. It is also a very heady feeling to know in your gut that your own opinion is good enough.
…the last time my ex screwed somebody else and I was upset to the point where I could not sleep he told me: you need better coping skills.
My newly aquired coping skills ended in us breaking up and me leading a brand new life in a different city and letting life cure me from open – long – distance agony. Girl, was I emotionally crippled from that relationship, but like a lotus flower I spreading out my petals.
Coping skills, yes! Similar thing happened to me, where I just couldn’t cope with a future faker who disappeared on me without a trace – couldn’t sleep, eat, or focus on work. When I finally did run into him, he shrugged it off like it was no big deal, and I needed to handle it better.
And then I realized how many times I should have said no to him in the first place, but I was too scared. I would have saved a lot of heartache!
I had a relative that I “broke up with” when I was in my 30’s after having had a freindship with her for years that was plagued-on my end-with me always questioning myself because, according to her, I was “cold” and “judgemental.” I just could not deal with her manipulative, passive-agressive crap. She did these outrageous things, but then she would make it sound like anyone who did not do what she wanted, was witholding and not generous. For example, asking to come for a visit and then deciding to buy a house where I lived and then expecting to let her live with me for free until the sale went through….kissing my ex-boyfreind a year after we broke up and telling me about it as a sort of confession and then getting mad at me when I was upset…telling a friend of hers about some family-business that was my own business with my family when we were in a fight and then having her friend intercede on her behalf to write me a long email labeling me, yes, “cold” and using the info she got from her to “prove” this….the list goes on, it was so so toxic.
I seriously thought that I was these things: “cold” and “judgemental”.
Then one day, I don’t know why, suddenly I realized: I had no desire to have this person in my life, I was constantly irritated with her lies and shenanigans and life was too short. I told her, the next time that we got in an argument, that yes I judged her, yes I felt cold towards her and frankly that I felt that way because she was manipulative and I was just OVER it! It felt SO good! I never regretted it, and this was about 6 years ago, and I still, to this day, am glad I did that. I occasionally get flack about it from my family and I just tell them that, logically, I don’t dump people who treat me with respect so yes, there is another side to what they have heard and I am not going to bother going on about it on my end. I think that for a while, that bothered them, but now everyone just accepts that I don’t deal with her and it works out well:)
I agree with this and where I’m finding it hard right now is with my parents, who are still verbally abusive when I visit them and tell mw I’m immatire becasue I won;t listen to endless insults. I am doing NC with them now, I was even afraid to send my dad a happy birthday email for fear that they will start calling me again and the icky energy will interfere with me being free. Anyways, I did send the email and I also want to send them an email letting them know it’s not ok to treat me like shit when I visit (they live in a different city, so it usually involves staying for a few days). My father sent me an email 2 weeks ago simply saying are you mad, let me send you some money. BS. They don’t get how painful it is for me to always have to visit them with all my armour on so as not to get triggered, and I have been very successful doing it and the last visit I wasn;t and fell off the wagon so to speak, like I’m the frickin addict, I’m NOT. I feel I have taken on the blame, been the scapegoat and I have allowed men to blame me too and I took it on, even when I know it’s not me. So, I need to set boundaries and I find it easier with BF’s becasue Ican break up with them, but I don’t want to have to disown my family, however, I wonder if it might be necessary. Anyone have any expereince with this. My family is just very negative and have a habit of pointing out everything I did and do wrong. I am sure most of us have had experience with this, my parents are European and seem to be relentless with this annoying and soul destroying habit. I grew up with it and still haven’t succeeded in developing that thick skin, probably becasue I’m a sensitive intuitive type.
I’m sorry you’re going through this. Most of us have to deal with toxic people in our lives. It sucks when it’s family because you can’t exactly cut them out entirely. Just try to create some distance like you’re doing and try not to take it personally. I know easier said than done.
Thanks Michelle, I do need to remember not to take it personally.
Chloe stay strong….it is really hard to change relationships with parents and siblings….they will just keep trying to run over your boundaries because they had years of being able to do it:) I totally support you; you don’t deserve to be treated like shit in order to have a family.
…and at the end of the day you will pay for not respecting yourself since nobody feels love for a person with no self respect.
Very good article, Natalie. You are on-point!
“Isn’t defriending on Facebook / unfollowing them on Twitter really immature?”[…] In olden times, would you sit outside their house watching their life unfold? Er, no.
LOL!!!
These ‘olden times’ to me seem like five minutes ago (!), so I found this image really funny – and so apt!
“…if instead of trying to force yourself to have someone’s values, or trying to convince them to change theirs, that you honoured your own values and found like-minded people…”
Sometimes we outrightly contradict what we say (or think) are our values by choosing to engage with shifty men who patently do not hold those values that we say (or think) we have. So what’s going on there? I have wondered.
I am going to be controversial here perhaps:
It’s easy for us to say or to think we hold certain values (like honesty, integrity, sincerity etc) when self evidently we do not (e.g. if we are engaging with or chasing up men who are patently bereft of integrity, honesty etc). If that applies to us, who are we kidding? Do we hold these values but have laid them aside cos it suits our agenda at the time? Are they still “values” if they are negotiable and flexible depending on the values of the man we are trying to be with?
One of the things I have had to face up to is that I actually did not hold the values I imagined I held when I was engaging with an MM (years ago) and a lying EUM (more recently). I might say I had tossed my values aside at these times, but I think even that is kidding myself. I knew I *should* have better values (I mistook knowing I should have them with actually having them!). The stark and uncomfortable truth, I now think, is that I simply did not have them (if I had they would have come into play and served me well)
I now think we try to get “him” to alter his values to something we erroneously imagine are our own (when actually they are not our own – or we wouldn’t be there!); we try to get him to change his dubious values to something more decent so that we can take credit for having these decent values in the first place, when actually we did not have them; if we did he would know all about it!
Anyway, whatever, one thing is for sure: We will never convince someone else (“him”) to adopt a higher set of values when we are patently not living them or valuing them ourselves. If we go along with, are complicit in or…
….Sorry don’t like to push it but may I finish that comment, please, Nat?
We will never convince someone else (“him”) to adopt a higher set of values when we are patently not living them or valuing them ourselves. If we go along with, are complicit in or chase up his unprincipled, shifty way of doing things we can hardly complain about his way of doing things. If we adopt or go along with or chase up his values, he assumes we have the same values as him. And he’s not wrong!
Absolutely spot on for me Fearless. Precisely what I did too. Claimed to have values and actually had none, which is why I ended up engaging with a lying, cheating MM. He wasn’t wrong. I was still there complaining all the way along! Brilliant addition to Nat’s post.
I agree with what you have written about the values we would like to think we have and the values we are actually living.
I have thoughts similar to yours that yes I am just putting aside my values for the purpose of this relationship, that is not true I have hung on to some shady relationships for longer than necessary it wasn’t like I got dumped bounced back to my original values and started living by them, no I continued with the same kind of relationships.
“he assumes we have the same values as him”
Of course he does he does crappy things we don’t agree with him but we turn up to the next date answer the next call reply to the text etc we do no different except have a grumble but generally carry on.
Though one may argue that we are unhappy in these relationships because we are not living in accordance with our values or authentically.
I agree totally with what you say above but am torn as where so much unhappiness comes from by being in these relationships.
Tulipa
“I agree totally with what you say above but am torn as where so much unhappiness comes from by being in these relationships”
Yes, I know what you mean. We assume that the reason we are unhappy is because we are not living in accordance with our values – as much as we go along with “his” crappy behaviour, it just doesn’t feel right for us? If we had the same values as “he” does you’d think we’d both be as happy as pigs in shite? But he seems to be the only one who is happy? Or is he, really?
I have a feeling it’s a bit arrogant of us to imagine that we have the “right” values, and if he would only just fall in line with these then we could all be happy. I have a feeling we go in there with our own values all askew and then (hypocritically) try to adopt the moral high ground with him. Perhaps we are not trying to get him to “up” his values to our own supposed standards but are hoping he will “up” his values so that we can then “up” our own; we want him to come good so that we can come good. We want him to stop cheating, stop lying, stop living with his wife, so that we can be saved, redeemed, be less ashamed of ourselves for showing not only bad judgment but for displaying our own dubious values by taking up with and staying involved with a liar and a cheat in the first place. I remember thinking many years ago when I was involved with an MM that he simply *had* to leave his wife and be with me, otherwise, what does that make me? What does that make him? It didn’t bear thinking about! I see now that we were those people whether he left his wife or not! There was I, in all my ridiculousness, thinking he should do the “right” thing and leave his family for his lover. In fact he showed himself to have better values than me – he did do the right thing, eventually – he stayed with his wife and his children.
Re my previous –
it also occurs to me that if I had got this MM to do what I wanted, to comply with my standards and my values, he would then forever have been a man who had deserted his marriage vows, his wife and his children. Not good. Not to paint him in saintly colours, but I am so glad now that at least one of us had the sense and gumption to do the right thing, eventually; I am just sorry that person was not me.
Fearless. I can totally relate to these ideas. One thing I have to acknowledge about my cowardly MM is that he really is sticking by his commitment to stay with his wife “till death do them part”. I thought he would be better to “pursue happiness”, leave his wife and son, and then consider a future with me. He said he has not known happiness like he feels when we are together. The part of his wedding vows that he does NOT keep is the faithfulness aspect. He also did not commit to the “exclusive” relationship WE were supposed to have. What a farce!
Sheesh, this sounds like a twisted fantasy relationship in an alternate universe.
You and this MARRIED man are just “f*cking around,” and you have deceived yourself into thinking that it is something more than that, even when presented with the knowledge that he is “f*cking around” with at least one other person besides you.
How unfortunate for you that that reality did not stop the fantasizing on your part.
How unfortunate for you that your professed values did not stop….
Jayzzzusss, are you just pissed because you might not be ‘number 1’ ? or the Queen Bee because it sounds as if you feel that it is ok for this AC to f*ck around on his wife because you think he is doing that to ‘be with you’, but it is not ok for him to f*ck around on you to ‘be with someone else’, and you would have no problem f*cking off into sunset with him at the expense of his wife and son.
As Grace said, “the only right you have in this is the right to walk away. And that’s not to be sniffed at. I’d take it like a shot.”
And, if I were you, I would RUN, and I would run myself right into a good therapist’s office and get some help.
Aside: Sheeshhh, and I thought virtual fantasies were the real beyotch.
And, it is good you are here…stick with this community.
Hugs to you.
LoJ: Since knowing about the OOW, fantasy abruptly ended. Not OK for him to be f’ing around with anyone, including me. At some level, I always knew that and woke every morning for 3 years with sick feeling in stomach. Running away now. Fast!
Oops. my reply about the fantasy abruptly ending was supposed to be addressed to Reality Rita, not LoJ. Sorry.
Please, people, before anyone else “toasts” me for my response to Fearless, know that I am relating to the idea that my thinking was out of whack. These are no longer my thoughts. I have progressed and left the situation. When I said “what a farce”, I was saying that to the entire mess – what he told me, and what I erroneously believed and hoped. I have progressed. I have walked away from the situation. I am now taking my first steps of awareness and ended this mess with NC as of today. Please see the present, not what I did or thought in the past. I was merely relating to what Fearless admitted were her misguided thought processes when she was entangled with a MM. Thank you.
Fearless,
I have to point out that I wasn’t in a situation
with a married man, but I can still see what
you are saying applies.
I always imagine if the ex eum has suddenly
changed and become emotionally available
I would have been to become the assclown or
run away.
That is where I am conflicted I say I have
such and such values and yet don’t live up to
them because I lack emotional availability and
therefore attract men who are in the same
emotional state and in turn I guess the same
values.
Hope I make sense and I’m sure many on
here are in the same conflict they want to live
up to what they value but don’t believe they
can do it and this is also where the
unhappiness can stem from.
Ps I’m not taking the moral high ground by saying I wasn’t involved with a married man I just want to point out that either way the unhappiness and conflict with ones self is there.
Tulipa, yes, I agree. My MM thing was many years ago; I used the OW/MM scenario as an example of the perfect illustration of our own values being all warped or lost in these type of situations but I apply my own reading of Nat’s posts and the comments to help me recover from a ten year on/off relationshit with an EUM, and yes, absolutely, the very same ideas apply – I am actually thinking of these ideas in respect of my ex EUM experience not my ex MM of 15+ years ago now – though that is the perfect illustration. I guess the thing I am musing about is that our boundaries are tied up with our values – if we are clear about our own values (rather than assuming ours are better than ‘his’) then our boundaries will come in to play more naturally.
Learner
I know you’re getting a toasting here, but please, it’s not up to you to decide if a man would be better off leaving his wife and child. Values cut both ways If you think it’s okay to do this, then when you are married it must be okay for another woman to decide that your husband would be better off with her.
As for you wanting an exclusive relationship with someone eles’s husband, I’m sorry that made me laugh out loud.
He has a child. It may seem primeval to you, but for many men the mother of their child is UP HERE and you are DOWN THERE. Even if she does make him sleep on the coach. And many men, and women, who might consider leaving a spouse wouldn’t leave a child. you may think that’s wrong, but it’s not your call.
I tell you what value I am reading into this. You think a sexual connection means more than a marriage, a wife, and a child. That’s why you’re more bothered by the Other Other Woman than the wife. Step back from all of this and take a long, hard, cold look at it. The only right you have in this is the right to walk away. And that’s not to be sniffed at. I’d take it like a shot.
Grace: Yes, yes, and yes. I agree and shamefully admit that I have put my own needs before those of MM’s wife and child (who is actually 20 years old, but still). When I read the words that I wrote about “exclusivity”, I can see they are laughable. They were HIS words. He told he since he didn’t sleep with his wife, that we were “exclusive”. You have helped me see here that perhaps I WAS valuing that sexual connection more. He was, however, telling me all along that I had “opened his heart” and he had “never felt this way about anyone before”. I do not know what possessed me to go along with all this. I was a lonely woman entranced with a man who pursued me fervently. I am fulfilling my right to walk away. Iam done. I have cancelled our last “date” and have gone NC (please see my reply to Fearless). I am anxious and relieved at the same time. Please be kind as I emerge from all this. I appreciate your straight-up advice, but feeling more than a little vulnerable today. Thank you.
Great comment, Fearless! In my years of martyring myself for AC#1 and AC#2, I spent so much time, particularly when these guys were expressing interest in other women, being angry at them for not valuing someone who unconditionally loves them, supports them, etc. – i.e., me. Somehow, it didn’t occur to me to turn that around, and see that I *also* didn’t value being unconditionally loved, supported, etc., or I wouldn’t have been pursuing someone who clearly didn’t care about me.
I will say, though, that the greatest problem I had with values was simply believing that it is somehow HONORABLE to martyr oneself for love. I really did think this, with every fiber of my being. I thought it was my job to fight for the relationship no matter what, even if I actually didn’t like the guy, even if he clearly didn’t like me!
It really was not until I found Baggage Reclaim – and most importantly, read Natalie’s insistence that the moment someone breaks up with you, you have to come back down to earth and accept the decision – that I was able to give myself permission to actually attempt to get OVER a break-up, and move on.
Snowboard
“Somehow, it didn’t occur to me to turn that around, and see that I *also* didn’t value being unconditionally loved, supported, etc., or I wouldn’t have been pursuing someone who clearly didn’t care about me.”
Ditto.
Also I took on the job of fighting for the relationship with the ex EUM (of ten years on and off!), but I’m not sure that my motives were ‘altruistic’, if you see what I mean. I think it was a case of fantasy, dreaming, investing in perceived potential to the point of madness, lack of boundaries, lack of values that I actually “valued”, determination to get what I thought I deserved (as you say above), sheer bloody mindedness and dogged refusal to heed the bloody obvious!
Hi Fearless,
I like what you say a lot. I would tend to believe also that once we really live our core values, it acts as a repellent for those who don’t.
As for not sticking to our values, I would just add that sometimes, we can also be quite naive. If we are at the core honest and a good person, it can take some life lessons to learn that not everybody is like us. And lack of confidence can make it difficult to affirm our values. I think where often Nathalie strikes a cord is by articulating and validating what we believe in deep down.
Isabel
Yes. Good points. I agree with that too. We can be naive and/or lacking confidence to assert what we know is right, and right for us (I think that was partly my problem, but also I just wanted what I wanted! And even when I had more than enough information that would require me to get real, give it up and run away, I didn’t run, I disappeared down a hole of fantasy where I was always the good guy and should get what I deserved no matter what it took and no matter what the cost. I still do not have what I want. Ha! Life’s lessons certainly teach us what our values should be and how we need to stick by them but first we have to stick with reality!
I don’t get told I am immature – but I get games around gender politics… ie he implies that its just the way it is – men have the upper hand because they don’t fall in love as easily, that men don’t bond over casual sex, and men don’t need one woman as men always find lots of women attractive , perving is natural etc. Basically he kind of projects that he can’t help it he’s a man and I am a dependent needy woman and that is just the way it is. For 3 years I played the game back, went on about actors/sports stars I thought were hot, told him it was just casual and I wasn’t interested in anything else, went on about how much I didn’t like relationships etc and then had fling with someone else much younger and told him about it in kind of a ‘see how you handle this then buster!’. but that didn’t achieve anything useful although he finally admitted hurt feelings – but it really messed my values and I ended up really confused and angry. Plus he is now depressed and has suddenly noticed that he is 40 and wants children but has no partner – and I struggle to be sympathetic as I just think angry thoughts like – reap what you sow buddy!. Occasionally I feel pleased he is unhappy because he pretended he was really interested in me whilst he continued to secretly date others when I was very stressed in the middle of custody battles and court cases with a violent ex husband – and he offered sympathy and support like he was a nice man and I thought I was lucky to have him! Boy did I feel stupid! He also quietly dismisses women needs around intimacy, commitment and affection with a polite but scornful air like women are weak and easy prey and that makes them /weak and men inherently and permanently more powerful. Its horrible. It like a contest over power between us and he wants more than his share – its hard to spot initially because he does a good pretense of mature, responsible and kind. Natalie, I would really love to hear your view on power imbalances and power games within relationships – I always seem to end up with men who are very keen on being the most powerful in the relationship and I really hate that dynamic! At the moment despite an ongoing friendship with this man I am not interested in relationships because I am too nervous of getting involved in yet another power battle! And the struggle for power with my ex husband…
Astrid
It was an incredibly powerful day of liberation for me when I realised that Not All Men Think In The Same Way.
I’m a teacher. All day I listen to teenagers saying “Oh, EVERYBODY thinks this/does that/wears this/says that…” and I think “Adolescent piffle, demonstrably untrue”. And yet, for years and years I applied the “All men think… All women want…” rules to my life. Since when have people all been robots?
Sure, SOME men have (and want) the ‘upper hand’, SOME men ‘need’ lots of women – and I daresay more men than I’d like think like this (must be tempting to believe, as it gives you a licence to do as you please). But there are plenty of others who don’t, and who believe in love and self-discipline and caring for other people and having an honest genuine relationship and who don’t need to bolster their feeble egos by making other people miserable.
Every time I meet a man like that (my dad, my brother and many of my friends’ husbands fit into this category) I try to put them on a mental pinboard of ‘people whose values I’d like any future partner to share’. It helps. The only bother is that, as far as I can tell, you’ll only attract those people if you’ve got similar values yourself.
“I’m a teacher. All day I listen to teenagers saying “Oh, EVERYBODY thinks this/does that/wears this/says that…” and I think “Adolescent piffle, demonstrably untrue”. And yet, for years and years I applied the “All men think… All women want…” rules to my life. Since when have people all been robots?”
high five Yoghurt, well put:)
Yo thanks 🙂
It’s like the Emperor’s New Clothes again, isn’t it? Every time I hear or see anything like it (it’s popular with the media and their “all men NEED to look at breasts regularly” spiel) I try to remember that it’s just one pov that is foisted on us by People With An Agenda.
The sad thing is that I used to believe that any man who DIDN’T think in that way was somehow ‘soft’ or weird. Flamin numpty that I was.
Also… (sorry, more’s just occurred to me!)
Power-battle-wise – this man will always have power over you as long as you interact with him, basically because you care about him more than he cares about you. Does that make him a better person? NO! Does that mean that his life will be more fulfilling? NO! Does that mean that you have to hang around and let him treat you badly? Hell to the Nonononono. D’you really want to spend the rest of your life in a power struggle? What a depressing waste of energy that would be.
If you think that he should reap what he’s sown, then start off by not allowing him to still have a sympathetic ear after he’s treated you disrespectfully and forfeited the right to it. Instead of going round in circles with this bloke (tiring and depressing and you’re not going to ‘win’), I’d focus on dealing with the break-up of your marriage and finding NICE SENSIBLE people to hang out with so that you can get your own values and sense of yourself back on track.
The answer to some men being gits is not for women to try and better them in the git-stakes.
Ahh, yes. This reminds me so much of my last ex-EUM/AC. Any boundary I suggested (that might make ME feel comfortable, God forbid…) was met with I wasn’t being mature/open, etc.
I was SUPPOSED to be comfortable when he announced he had the hots for a woman in his AA group, explicitly telling me what he wanted to do to/with her. If I were cool and mature, I would just listen to what he was saying, and, if he was lucky, go along with it, right? When I expressed my objections and discomfort, somehow *I* was wrong. Then when he tried to insinuate himself into her home life even more, by having his kid babysit for hers, by doing work on her garage, taking in her cat when her son become allergic…Wasn’t I mature enough to understand that adults have flexible relationships???
Hell to the no. I actually met the woman shortly before the break up. She’s dumb as a box of rocks, it’s pretty clear her husband had/has no clue
And the funny thing is, I believe that part of him breaking up with me had to do with hoping he could have both of us, and my not being cool with it. Eight months later he called me begging me to take him back. I was very MATURE when I said, “Mmmm, NO.”
So true, Nat.
Let’s just be honest – if someone tags you “immature” or fraidy cat or any other name- it’s just another form of MANIPULATION. For the A/C, EUMS, this is a modus operandi. And it is played in so many situations in life, with parents, children, in marriages, and in relationships. We need to recognize it, and our reaction(s) to it.
We women (& some guys) are so trusting, so believing, especially of those we want to love us, of men in new relationships in particular. I remember my MM A/C when the relationship was new. He often said we are good “as long as we’re smiling”. WTF? I came to understand that if I became unhappy with the relationship, it (we) may not work out. Eff that! It’s a form of bribery. Funny part was, HE was the one who fell in love first, and expressed his unhappiness that we weren’t together! The whole thing eventually fell apart, I kicked him to the curb. Still love him, but no more second fiddle.
Good post, NML, thanks
As always, this is right on time for me. The ex-assclown wants to talk, wants to be friends, wants to stay in contact. I’ve refused any contact at all for a very long time now. I also still live next door to my ex-assclown, but the incidences of abuse and stalking whatever I’m doing have slowed right down, almost to a stopping point. The problem is – I met up with a great friend I knew years ago (before the ex) and we immediately picked up where we left off all those years ago. He’s just fabulous! Now things are starting to progress past the long-term friends stage and he’s coming over a lot more regularly now. Unfortunately, the first night his car stayed here overnight, the ex next door neighbor went rather crazy. He and his friend trashed my front yard and started yelling out violent abuse in the street. Luckily another neighbor called the police and stopped it – but she had to yell out several times to stop them attacking my friend’s car.
Now the stalking and evil treatment has begun all over again. He says I’m immature to move on ‘so fast’ (sheesh – it’s been almost year w@nker – move on and move out!). He says I’m immature not to remain friends. He says I’m immature to have another guy staying in my house just to torment him (um… I’m certain that’s not the reason he was here…). He followed us to a restaurant the other night. He listens to our conversations from next door if we’re out under the patio. He even followed me up to my new friend’s place to see where I was going! Aaarrrggh! I thought all this had stopped.
But I really did start having doubts about whether I should at least try to be civil some of the time so that hopefully this would STOP. This post reinforces for me that his own immaturity is dictating how he reacts. Not mine! I have a fun, happy life to live that really doesn’t include him or his cr@p! 🙂
HBS,
Why haven’t you moved???
This is nuts. You seem to be spending more time complaining about it than doing something about it. That email post probably took five minutes of your life where you could be looking for a new place….why in the world are you not taking this seriously? What are you getting out of this that you are choosing to stay next door to this weirdo?
Gotta agree, sorry HBS.
I cannot imagine anyone having a fun, happy life living next door to someone so unpredictable and downright dangerous. If he’s got no worries about verbally abusing you and trashing your property, what makes you think that he’ll stop short of attacking you physically?
He doesn’t care about you enough to respect your property so what makes you think that he’ll respect your right not to be physically hurt?
Whatever your reasons for Not Moving – hassle, loss of face, showing him that you’re strong etc, I’m telling you now that it is NOT worth risking your physical or emotional wellbeing for. You cannot ‘handle’ this situation – the only real and effective way to handle it is to Get Far Away.
Thanks for all your comments and input. I haven’t moved because I own my place and it’s not easy to sell in this market right now. He’s renting and his lease expires next month. His landlord won’t renew, so he’ll be gone by then. Why should I sell the home I love and that I worked so hard to build and pay for when I can issue complaints to the landlord next door that will result in him being forced to leave in just a couple more weeks?
No, I don’t talk to him at all. I don’t respond to his emails. I hang up if he tries to call. I blocked him on facebook. But I do live next door. It’s really easy for him to call out taunts or suggestions or questions from the fence line. That doesn’t automatically mean I respond. In fact, I’ve gotten very good and looking right past him as though he doesn’t exist.
On the bright side, my new friend is half a foot taller than the ex-AC and said a quiet word to him to the other night. I’m guessing he might have been a little intimidating, because we haven’t heard a thing from him since!
Who cares who started it. MOVE HOUSE ASAP.
What will it take for you to move? Home invasion? Damage to the car? Arson?
An altercation.
Get out now while you still can.
HBS
I’m gonna disagree somewhat with the others. You haven’t done anything wrong and in your situation I wouldn’t want to be driven out of my home (which I bought and rather like) by an AC.If he’s that nutty, even if you move he can track you down.
I think you should take some professional advice, can the police help? Is there a victim support centre in the vicinity? Do you think it would give him pause if you took him to court (Judge Judy style)? Can you get him evicted if he’s renting? Are you SURE that he won’t escalate this (in which case, maybe you should move )? Can you enforce boundaries more strongly – like not talking to him? I get the impression you still have some residual contact with him. Don’t feed the beast.
I was stalked by the abusive ex and in the end he did give up after I refused all contact. When he called work I got my male colleagues to answer the phone. Often they back down when confronted.
Just throwing some ideas up for you to think about.
Fair enough, grace, and a good point. When I think about moving I realise that I wouldn’t want to either, notwithstanding the fact that it’d be really difficult to do at this point for various reasons anyway.
In essence, though, I’d stand by my ‘immediate and drastic action’ stance, though – imo this has definitely gone beyond the point of just ignoring it and hoping that it stops.
HBS, I’d further advise that you don’t pay him the compliment of even listening to or processing his opinion on anything – this bloke’s behaviour is so outside of what is acceptable that his opinion is really reduced to the value of babbling.
I agree with you Grace. Even if I DID move, he’s the type that would still track me down. So why be driven out of my own home. As I said in the previous comment, I own my home but he’s renting. Yes, I can get him evicted. The landlord won’t renew his tenancy lease next month. I already know this.
HBS,
Didn’t realize you owned your home, I thought you may be renting.
I do have two questions: Why haven’t you contacted the police or gotten a restraining order?
HBS sorry did not realize that you own your own home…but I still think that you need to leave until he is evicted. This man is crazy! He could kill you, maim you and then who cares who was right or what you wanted; every day around the world women underestimate their stalkers.
Seriously, I had some nut who I worked with once, a few years ago, act stalkerish because he had crush on me and I was too afraid to look unprofessional so I did not go to HR when he started acting kind of nutty. I just left the job because I had a better offer anyway. Months later….he shows up on the news for having thrown molatov cocktails at a mosque due to some problem with a Muslim girl, who he was interested in….it just chilled me. I could not help but think that, had I done something, he would have never done that. At least no one was hurt, but how do you know that you won’t be?
You need to contact the police, get a restraining order and move temporarily imho.
I’m going to disagree here and say it doesn’t matter who started it or who is in the wrong. If you’re in danger – you more away from danger.
Having a negative/nuisance relationship is STILL a relationship, is still contact, is still messing up your life.
I have never felt like expressing my boundaries was immature. My problem with expressing my boundaries was that I was afraid I’d lose the jerk because he might not be up to the task of respecting me. I’m so over this state of mind. I have been through so many bad relationships that now I’m not going to settle for anything less than a loving, wonderful man.
My ex-AC has been trying to play the “dead end” friend card with me. I’ve fallen for it more than once because I wanted to look mature, like I could handle it and, hate to admit it, I thought it was the way to get him back. That was, until I discovered BaggageReclaim. Over a year ago I finally grew the balls to say no and mean it. He, unfortunately, doesn’t get it. Still contacting me and I am still answering him back loud and clear with no contact. The message I am sending to him is that I am no longer stupid, he is not all that, you don’t deserve me and you are just going to have to live with it. And the best part is that I am sending this so deserved message to a poor excuse for a man WITHOUT AN OUNCE OF GUILT. He earned it!!
The other side to this is recognising that psychological projection is a key feature of the AC/ narcissist: identifying you (the *target*) as “immature” or “mad”/ bunny-boiler for refusing to comply with their agenda and/or expressing anger at being manipulated them, is a subconscious admission of their own defects– ie. they are actually acknowledging their own low self-esteem by attributing it, instead, to you.
This plays right to our desire to be liked, especially by someone WE admire. I think a lot of us have also been raised as women, to be “agreeable,” to not be unpleasant, to not make waves.
Bullies and manipulators also seem to know instinctively how to make us do what they want. By painting us as “immature” or unreasonable, they are pushing buttons that have long been proven to work.
Once you’re aware of it, though, just say no. In the end, you don’t owe anyone an explanation of why you don’t want to do something. Especially not a stranger on a first date!
Nat and Ladies..It has been awhile since I last posted.I was the lady whos Asshole Guy up and dissapeared after 6 months of shady dating,I was devasted beyond belief,I also am the Compulsive Gambler in which I shared a biit about here..
I wanted to let you all Know that since I came here and Read Nats book and You all shared your stories with me,I have since found Happiness in Myself.
I have put forth the wisdom and Courage I have found here,and applied it to my own life.
I have met a wonderful Man,and I Have put boundaries and Loving myself at the forefront.I have said ‘no”when something was not right,and I no longer veiw crumbs as Loaves..
Nat you have changed my life,and I inturn have tried to teach your truths to Others who are going thru crap in thier lives..I sit here in tears as I write this,because I know so many are hurting right now,But please ladies,keep coming here and reading,get Nats Books,It has become My bible so to speak.There is happiness around the corner,and it starts with you!!.
Love you all…
Brenda
Favorite part of this, “When you think you’re being immature or even frigid for not wanting to go along with something, it’s actually a sign that you’re engaging with someone who’s in conflict with your values…”
Wow. I felt this so many, too many times in my 10 month non relationship that ended two months ago. There were many times I fought my feelings about whatever situation in my attempt at trying an open mind approach because my exes said I’m too serious, their word for me not giving in.
This blog has cleared the fog from my head. Thanks for reminding me that I am truly a smart woman with fantastic values. I knew her so well at sixteen. She got lost somewhere on the journey if the last 30 years. Thanks for your words that are sweeping out the messy words and thinking that filled my head.
Flushing the BS!
It took me a long time to figure out adulthood – to the imperfect degree I have! Maturity is like the buddhist 8-fold path; ideally you mature at all things at the same time, but sometimes you only mature in some areas and get lopsided.
I was called “mature” when I was young because I was always at the top of my class; that’s alright, but I was also considered “mature” but also because I always sought the approval/company of adults. I saw myself as “more mature” and condescended toward “kids” in my classes, calling them dumb – especially after experiencing bullying, but in the end I just wasn’t socialized to deal with my peers and in fact lacked a lot of maturity socially.
“Calling someone immature for being unwilling to play along with doing or being something that they don’t want to, is passive aggressive and at times outright bullying.” As I mentioned in a recent post, I have just realized how much I normalized bullying my father. After him pushing me around for years, I left at 17, but not because I’d learned how to behave. I had just become a stronger bully, I guess. I never actually stopped coming home and telling him (or more recently, implying by tone of voice or hinting) how and who he should be.
My sister and brother and I all had this trait of crossing boundaries and telling people what they should do – even if we didn’t call others “immature” – we all implied by our know-it-all attitudes that we were savvier; less naive. Meanwhile we knew bupkus and all the truly mature people were refraining from telling us all about ourselves. I think we’ve all suffered relationship-wise for it and now I see us all being much kinder and more respectful with one another.
Of course I accepted this behaviour from my boyfriends, my whole life! Even up until the very last one! It was only after my experience with the exAC, an epiphany relationship, where I started to love and respect myself; and eventually started to see how I hadn’t been extending real love and respect to others, either. I was “shoulding” and bullying myself constantly.
In fact, I only yesterday thought about it and realized that my first long-term boyfriend used to neg me constantly! He would do it in this joky way that made it feel like intimacy and like he knew better! *shaking head*
Man, Mags, your comments are really chiming with me at the moment. I am also weaning myself off being so watchful and intense with my father. Like you, I learnt all this sh*t from him, who was constantly on my back and full of criticism and often really mean insults, but, still, I don’t want to be good at this. It’s actually not what I am like most of the time within all my other relationships and certainly not for very long (ie I can’t hold up the hard for long!) – so it seems like petty revenge to practise it with him. I’ve stopped doing this, and it’s a good thing.
Natalie and ladies, I want to scream THANK YOU so loudly you’ll hear it in the UK and around the globe. This weekend I said no to meeting Mr. Online ‘Nice’ guy at his house on the beach for a second date. Thanks to you all, one of my sparkly new boundaries is no sex until there is it is a committed healthy relationship. I did want to play frisbee on the beach but not at a perfect stranger’s house for god’s sake. He said he understood and I thought wow, he’s respecting my boundaries, cool. I did have reservations regarding his choice for a second date but we met for brunch instead. He seemed cool (as in distant), said he would email me his private address, and then promptly disappeared! I’m so happy. I got to enforce a boundary and I’m treating myself with respect. Thanks so much for reinforcing that it is MY RIGHT to not have sex if I don’t want to. Sheesh, it’s the basics with me. I also very much appreciated your comment with regards to my right not to text. I’ve told every guy, I do NOT text. I prefer a telephone call. Mr. Online ‘Boring’ guy, said he’d call but apparently forgot my boundary regarding texting. He texted the next morning (at 7:30 am) about what a nice time he had (I didn’t) and I hit delete. A few hours later, another text wanting to know how my day was going. Delete. Dear lord. There’s been a little bit of the nigglies with my internalized FBG tendencies so was a very nice, reassuring post for me. For now, my new found boundaries have kicked in. Of course, I’ll get the real test if I meet my type but maybe I’ll have enough practice enforcing boundaries and developing some self-esteem/self-respect that I’ll automatically run. Presently, I’m just so happy that I’ve honored my own values for once in my life. Heck, I’m just happy I have values now! So if you hear a thundering noise, it’s me saying THANK YOU all! I am really not that woman anymore. I can say no.
runner girl, I cant tell you how much pleasure and hope reading your post gave me! I was just imagining getting those texts from someone new and how much strength and self worth it would take to delete them – having already said you don’t text. Yay you.
I haven’t dated since xMM (a year of self work and counting) but when I do I wanna be just like you 🙂
@runnergirl
Bravo! ~~~~~~~~~~:)
Runnergirl, I am happy for you, well done! I failed and my FBG tendencies won:-( My AC sent me text saying he didn’t mean to upset me and that it is not only sex he is after etc. Lovely girls here advised me NOT TO ANSWER, but I did…Somehow I felt scared that I am going to lose him forever… I wrote him back saying that I love spending time with him and I want to see him again! HE answered back: “yes, lets meet up for sex only” I was speechless I could not believe what I was reading…Where is logic?!
SO dear girls, if you feeling like answering messages of ACs, please do not do it, IT IS NOT WORTH IT. I am done, I am not going to see him anymore…thank you Runnergirl for your powerful words, I will try to be like you – finally respect myself and have boundaries.
Runnergirl- I envy you that is what I shouldve done weeks ago. Instead I gave into constant pressure and slept with the guy. Then eventually got dumped by text. I give into pressure and then I end up getting dumped anyway.
Marianna, Grounded, HS, and Fedup,
Thanks for your replies and words of encouragement. After subsisting on a crumb text diet for two years, texts make me want to vomit. Thus, there was no strength involved. I didn’t want to get sick. The only text I will respond to is my daughter’s and if someone is running late. My response is “K”. Most importantly, the first few dates should be when everyone is on their best behavior. Online boring guy already disrespected my “no texts boundary” and ignored me on the second day. Where would it go from there?
Marianna, it’s been a year and change (although it’s hard to count since I broke NC so many times) since I’ve been out of the OW situation too. I felt ready. Not perfect, not cured, just ready. Good for you. Continue the work you are doing.
HS, I wrote down my values and boundaries and then memorized them because the FBG habits are so deeply ingrained. Thank god I memorized them because self-respect is not a natural habit for me. There’s no way to make any logical sense based what an AC says. It like Natalie’s analogy regarding ice cream. At 3:00, they say the love chocolate ice cream (not after sex). 2 hours later, their favorite is raspberry sherbet and they hate ice cream altogether (after sex). I’m paraphrasing. Natalie’s description is far better. Listen to the plain meaning. He’s after sex.
And Fedup, I’ve so confused sex for love. When I worked on my boundaries, I realized I couldn’t list them in priority order because they were all number one. Sex is right up there. Sex will be a wonderful part of my life when there is a committed, co-piloted relationship healthy relationship based on honest, trust, and respect. That’s probably not in the cards on the second date. It’s is like the texting thing. Sex with a perfect stranger just makes me want to vomit too (I’m only speaking for myself here) and scares me shitless regarding personal safety. When online nice guy suggested his house for the second date, I “shoulda” just said nope, no brunch, nada, and flushed. So I did give into my FBG tendencies by suggesting brunch. A work in progress. Of course, he vaporized when he realized there wasn’t going to be any sex any time soon. Fedup, Natalie is spot on, it’s YOUR RIGHT to not have sex. Period. Write it down and memorize it.
PS. I haven’t given up…
The truth is, it’s not immature to not want to text all the time and to not want to believe that someone who you don’t see very much or who keeps themselves at an emotional, communicative, and physical distance, is going to be a prospect for a full-on relationship. Is it really going to go from that to, for example, moving in?
that speaks about me… i have been on contact with a person through texting for 3 weeks, he is a doctor and he says he is busy n does not have much time, i do not think i can wait longer then that, because if he really wants to meet he is going to find time, two times i tried to stop our contact i told him i do not like texting so he called, n he told me i want to meet u, he insists that he does not have time, i understand that he finishes his work time @ 9 pm, even he is in the mountains on weekends even he works on weekends n his mother had undergone a heart surgery in this period,
Dudes, I am needing some advice in relation to boundaries, but in this case with my housemate. I am currently living with an old friend (in her mid-thirties), who I I have not spent much time with over the past decade. Anyway, it hasn’t quite turned out to planned. I am old enough to know that I am a contributor and almost certainly unintentionally behave in ways that frustrate and irritate her. But, it’s getting to the point where I feel down about leaving work to return to my house. She has so many rules, both formal and invisible, watches me do things, like cook – she adjusts the gas if she thinks it’s on too high, does not respect boundaries (eg if I say, I am just lying in bed for a little while, she comes in anyway, to open up my window or do whatever it is that she wants to do), she switches taps off when I am in the middle of using them because she thinks I have used enough water (before you raise the enviro alarm – I am the PT/walker, she has a car, I limit my flying, she doesn’t etc, so it’s not essentially about sustainability), comments on my TV program-selection, tells me I look untidy, the list goes on. I can honestly say that our house is continously clean and tidy, that with my working hours and other commitments, she has swathes of time there for herself (I am barely around), and that my self-presentation is more than OK, sometimes amazing (haha) (not that this should matter!). Anyway, I am changing jobs and locations in six months time, but til then it would be very painful, expensive and difficult for me to move house (esp in the city in which I live). She wants to have dinner to discuss everything, and I do have faith in her that she will be sensible and pretty open about things, but, on my end, I’ve lost a sense of wanting to be around her – she is just so cutting, she never apologises, she’ll fight things to the death, it seems. I would like some tips on how to navigate that dinner – I want to be top-line and calm, but also assertive. I also want to get rid of my unhelpful attitude – ie that she is a little crazy – so that I can create a solution and even feel really good about it, and maybe even preserve a friendship (too much to ask?! ; )). Thanks
You’re asking for change in another party and that is just not going to work. You’re incompatible.
I would say that either you or her has to leave. Thinking that a dinner discussion is going to solve anything and hope that from that point on everything will be A-OK is delusion.
If it were me, I’d be like “This isn’t really working for me, and I want to be friends with you but I’m worried that this situation is putting strain on our friendship so I’m sorry to say but maybe it would be best if you were to move”.
Yes, it will put you on the edge and who knows how they’ll react but what is the alternative?
Just in case: old, meaning long-standing, not old as in years. (I am in my thirties too!)
Elle, I feel you. If you’ve only got six months and the topline data for you regarding moving is that you can’t afford the disruption and expense, then you’ll have to figure out what the most workable solution is for you, given what she is capable of.
For example, when my roomie and I got into certain discussions, it was awful, and I thought talking it out would work at first, but it just stirred up more awful, and in the end I decided that avoiding the topic (as much as I hated to feel stifled in my own residence) was what I was going to do for myself. It has worked in the sense that she and I have gone long enough now without a grating, painful interaction that we enjoy civility. But it has never gone beyond that; I never got (back) to a place of enjoying her company enough to seek it out.
It’s funny you say my posts have chimed with you; this one of yours really does for me – I have been wracking my brain trying to figure out why I can’t just find a way to feel good about all of this, find a way to really like her, and find a way to have a friendship, not just a civil, even politely cheerful, roommateship. I can’t figure anything except going day by day.
It sounds like your roommate doesn’t understand boundaries. One can only guess if explaining to her verbally will flip a switch. But if you do speak, you might state YOUR boundaries, saying something like, “I really value my personal space and choices, and value others’ people’s personal space and choices. Some boundaries around my personal space are: my room (please don’t come in without asking, and I can say no), my activities (please don’t interrupt/turn off my water without asking); and my choices (please don’t criticise or offer opinions on my choices unless I ask for input). You might spell it out that if your boundaries are crossed, it feels like an intrusion. You might ask what her boundaries are, b/c like so many of us here, she might not realize she has them or know if they are weak or strong!
Good luck.
Mags and ToA,
Thanks for your generous feedback – it’s very interesting to see how all this BR stuff spills over to all arenas of life. Seems natural, but you can often save up all your energy and skills for romantic relationships, at the expense of home, family, friendships and work.
I am going to take on what you say, ToA and see what she makes of moving out – though very gently put (ie she would be horrified if she’s not even thinking of that). With only 6 months left at the current job – I walk to work from here – and all the expenses of moving (and breaking leases), I am pretty stuck.
What you wrote, Mags, really helped me in terms of structuring the conversation, because it’s exactly what makes me feel oppressed – how she intrudes (from touching my clothes ‘you’re not wearing that, are you?, to disparaging remarks about my work and boyfriend and other, mundane choices). I don’t respond well to that at all (though, I can see how I have some of these inclinations, when I am tired and stressed – ie I start to want everyone to be whipping their backs. I tend to save it for family h/w – not that it makes this better).
I have said that to her a few times – that I’d prefer if she expressed what she wanted from me, and to really think about whether it was OK for her to want it from me, and for me to respond to something that might just be her own stuff. She replied, ‘but, if I had to speak to you about, rather than just go ahead and do it, then I would be instructing you all day’. I said, ‘but you do anyway, by disciplining me!’ The most ridiculous part of this is that it’s one ordered person (me) clashing with a hyper ordered person (her). It’s silly, really.
She has suggested that she wants a lot from me, as a friend, but the truth is, I am down to just wanting what you have, Mags, day-to-day civilty and politeness. I am finding the expectations of friendship, on top of the endless to-do lists just too much, emotionally. I can’t do both! Anyway – I am going to start the dinner with yours Mags, then gently veer to ToA’s suggestions if it gets to it. In the meantime, good to see it as a lesson in loving people – ie respecting their space and, for the most part, letting them be!
THIS IS PERFECT…I ran into a dilemma the other night….I had started dating a man a few months ago, he had pursued me for a while and finally I agreed to go on a date. I told him right away that I would not have sex with him until I got to know him (my own personal boundary) and he seemed OK with it…we went on a few more dates and then he started the phasing me out thing..stopped contacting me, short brisk replies..I knew he had lost interest for whatever reason but it wasn’t a big deal…although I was a little annoyed he had not been upfront.
Then a few nights ago he chooses to message me apologising for the lack of contact in two months blah blah…when I took him up on it he just said that he was a coward for not contacting me that he was attracted to me but no strong feelings and that he should have told me. We proceeded to argue a little, I told him he should have had the balls to tell me at the time and why tell me two months later when its no longer relevant??? My confidence was a bit hurt.
Anyhow, I decided to delete him from my FB and cease contact (I’d only been on three dates). He text me angry but I told him that I don’t see the point in being friends with him if he’s only capable of being honest with me when it suits him.
I hope I didn’t overreact?? I did feel immature and guilty after it’s just after years of putting up with this behaviour, I just can’t put up with it anymore and don’t want people like these in my life. Sometimes it’s just hard to know if you are doing the right thing or not.
annie – good for you! what a jerk…and then to complain you deleted him. listen to what he said to you. i was in a similar situation – it’s like really…did this just really happen…what is WRONG with these people and why do i keep “running” into them – yikes~
Just because someone is angry DOESN’T mean you’ve done the wrong thing. HE DISAPPEARED FOR TWO MONTHS! You were on crumb supply for that time? Who else was he seeing during that time.
You owe this guy NOTHING. NC all the way!
Annie, well done:-) You did not waste time with this loser and pointed out on his faults. I wish I was strong like you, maybe first I should be HONEST with myself and decide what/who I want in my life…I am emotionally unavailable woman and I keep destroying relationships, especially in the beginning . I treated men like craps and when they started to give me “my own medicine” somehow I do not feel comfortable.
My EUM/AC was a master at making me feel guilty…this was how he controlled the relationship. If I felt something was inappropriate or I just didn’t feel right about it, whatever it was….he’d say my reasoning made no sense because ‘we loved each other’. Basically, if I truly loved him I wouldn’t mind doing X,Y,Z. I hated myself for allowing him to play with my head that way. He could make me feel bad about something I never even thought. He was also passive-aggressive and would shut me out. All communication was stopped, knowing I would try harder upon his return. Love is not supposed to be manipulative and he was. I was in and out of that nightmare for 8 years…broke up for 18months NC and then replied to a message from him like a dummy, because I needed to hear him say he was sorry. BIG HUGE MEGA MISTAKE. If you’re NC stay that way…you don’t need any validation from them. They lie anyway!
I went back into it after all that time, only to have him ‘disappear on me’ after 3 months like I never existed. But it served it’s purpose well, because I no longer love that rat and have been NC for 3 years now. I look back and thank God I came to my senses. I love myself and have solid boundaries now, because of baggage reclaim. Don’t ever let someone make you feel guilty or immature about NOT doing something, that goes against your values. A decent, good person would not do that…point blank period. Like Nat said…Saying NO and having boundaries is your right. Only an assclown would have a problem with that.
Natalie. This is a wonderful article. The parts that speak about expecting honesty, living ones own values instead of someone else’s, and expecting time to heal when going from lovers to friends especially spoke to me. In my involvement with a MM over the last 3 years, all of these have come into play. He lied to me, about many things I am sure, but most significantly about the presence of one other OW he had in one capacity or another for the entire time we were “together”. When I asked him why he never told me about her, he replied “I didn’t want to hurt you, and I thought you would leave if you knew about her”. Well yeah buddy, no kidding!!! He was NOT honest about his situation or intentions. Instead, he kept her secret for the 3 years of our affair, while faking that he was seriously considering leaving his wife for ME, since his marriage had been so bad for so long. He would always use the line “I would love to be your life partner, but I don’t know what the future holds” though – always frustratingly vague. On finding out about the other OW a few weeks ago, I never wanted to see him again, but he managed to manipulate me into switching right to being friends – as you put it Natalie, “right after climbing off me”. And I LET him!!! Even being friends with him is not consistent with my values – I can see that now. And as per the comment Fearless wrote above about values, I have not been living my professed values of honesty and integrity by having an affair with this cowardly man. If you have values, it is apparent by your behaviour. My behaviour has been so off the mark. That is going to change. Today. I have drafted an email to cancel my dinner date with the MM this week to have our “decision discussion”. There is nothing to decide, nothing left to be said. I am clarifying my values, asserting my boundaries, saying NO, and feeling more mature as I resolve to send that email *today*. Thank you Natalie, thank you all who have helped me get to this point.
Hi Lerner,
I replied to you under the prior post on “Weights”. Regarding living congruently with your values: In one of Natalie’s books she has an exercise where you write out your values and boundaries. It really helped me to sit down and think about how out of whack my life had been. My actions were the complete opposite of what values I thought I held as Fearless points out. Seeing it on paper was an aha moment.
Good for you for realizing there’s nothing left to be said, you aren’t going to convince him to become honest, and the only thing left is NO. Such a little word with big meaning. NO!
Sending hugs and strength to you.
Learner:
“When I asked him why he never told me about her, he replied “I didn’t want to hurt you, and I thought you would leave if you knew about her”. Well yeah buddy, no kidding!!!”
That’s what he’ll say to his wife when she finds out about his other women! And when she does, you’ll be history.
You say, ‘no bloody kidding’, but you still hung around waiting for him to decide if he wants you full time or not!
“He was NOT honest about his situation or intentions. Instead, he kept her secret for the 3 years of our affair,”
He’s keeping YOU secret from his wife! (and from the other other woman as well)
Understand this learner: It is YOU who is the secret here (the dirty secret). Jeezus. You are ignoring the top-line information: He is a MARRIED man cheating on his wife for years with at least two other woman! Deal with that top line information first before you go getting all hurt and angry that there’s he’s got another one of you on the go. is it not a bit mental to be having an affair with a married man and grumbling that he’s having an affair with someone else as well. It’s so effed up. It is his *wife* who is being cheated on (by you and by him)! Not you. It’s time to see what’s going on here and step down from your victim podium.
Fearless: No “victim stance” intended. Oh yes, this is such an effed-up situation I have gotten MYSELF into. I am taking full accountability for this mess, and thus admitting that MY behaviour is way off the mark. I have been involved in something that could very well devastate another woman plus their child. I am so ashamed of that fact! I realized, once I heard about the OOW, that I was, indeed, his big secret (hugely painful realization) , and knew right then and there I could not be this man’s life partner. When I asked why he didn’t tell me about her before, he did tell me that “she was here first” (ouch again!) He then went on to insist that I am the “love of his life”. The dinner date for this week was made months ago – our original “decision day” and when I knew I was one of 3, he persuaded me to stay “friends” and we didn’t cancel the date at first. I wanted to take the opportunity to ask him where I had fit into his life. The decision about whether we woould be “full-tine” or not had already been made – NO! However, I wanted closure. I know now, from reading here, that I really don’t fit anywhere and seeking closure form him would be pointless. He has used me. I have taken a man’s time and attention away from his wife – from the mother of his child, and from that child. I have fully participated in that – I am guilty and I have been very selfish in my part in all this. I take responsibility, I accept full agency. Please understand that I am gaining new self-awareness in leaps and bounds over the last little while, especially with all of the ideas and support that I have had here. Today I cancelled our dinner, and told him I do not want contact, except for work purposes (we work for the same company). I was shaking when I sent the email, feeling ambivalent, but I did it! I will no longer hurt this other woman (his wife). I will no longer accept the hurt that I have had over the last 3 years being involved with someone else’s husband. I am soooo done!
learner
I understand everything you are trying to say. I understand way more than you can imagine! You are very vulnerable to this man and have been shrouded in a fur coat of denial, (plus all the minimising and rationalising). It’s good the bubble has been pierced. You have now a tough road ahead to move on and heal (and address your own emotional unavailability, which is what has you in this kind of relationshit in the first place). If you work with this man, it’ll make your road harder, so you need to brace yourself and arm yourself with some very clear and firm boundaries so that you can deal with his reaction and his attempts to reel you back in; you are vulnerable to his ‘lovely-dovey, love-of-my-life, blah, blah words are cheap’ manipulations and will likely find it hard not to seek validation and consolation from him. He may try to make you feel guilty or, God forbid, immature, for trying to break away from this toxic and self-destructive situation. You will need to be firm and completely self-assured and immovable that you are doing the the right thing – don’t be railroaded or derailed by him or by self-doubt. Stick with BR. It will help you. It’s sore, I know, but it will help you. I do support you Learner, be assured of that, but I will tell it as I see it.
Learner – I understand your ambivalence. Like me you are in the process of working it all out. Keep gaining new self-awareness. Have you read Natalie’s advice for NC when you work together? This has helped me a lot.
Fearless, – Today I’m going to think about your words “Deal with that top line information first….” and apply them to my own situation. They seem empowering, thank you.
Lilly,
I picked that up a while ago when reading a post of Nat’s about ‘top line information’ – I recognised myself in that post and it really helped me get out of my entrenched relationshit with the ex EUM. Sometimes we try to apply “boundaries” (I use ‘try’ cos I always failed anyway!) about four steps or levels down the line from the actual problem! I did this; I’d “fall out” with the EUM because he’d done some typical EU crap thing that week which had really upset but it was like I had relationship amnesia cos that one crap thing was only one of a zillion that had gone before and it was NOT the crux of the problem! The real problem was much bigger than that so my courageous applying of a “boundary” was just pathetic, and he knew it was!! He knew If I had any clue at all about “boundaries” or really had higher values than him then I would not be giving him the time of day – ever! I think Learner’s taking her (supposed) stand with the MM over the discovery of another OW is also a perfect illustration of our kinda pathetic attempts to show we mean business (!); it’s like letting him piss all over our house then complaining that he hasn’t out the toilet seat down (then letting him leave the toilet seat up anyway!). it’s kinda immature/misguided/naive to imagine (or pretend or delude ourselves) that we are setting boundaries after the person has busted through what should be our front line defense.
Learner, good job cancelling the date.
I don’t know what you mean by he manipulated you into staying friends: I can understand getting pressured to tell him you’re still friends (it happened to me, and to a lot of us here) but you seem to realize that this man is not your friend. Even if you haven’t cut all contact in the name of being “friends,” he just gets to feel like not-an-asshole and you get … nothing, really.
Hope you’ve decided that you are NC with this guy. Time to focus on you.
Best quote: Even worse, it is a sign of emotional immaturity on the part of the offender, that they are unable to empathise with your position and respect it, even if they don’t agree with it and it signals a parting of the ways.
That’s it in a nut shell. This article just reinforced what I have been doing for many years and made me feel better that I have evolved. But I am 54 and some of this you learn as you live life. What is wonderful is that Natalie gives this advice to us so pointedly. Although I’m glad I didn’t have to experience relationship problems and breakups sp publicly as a younger woman via face book etc, I also didn’t have access to information like this unless I went to the self help section of the local bookstore (no chain books stores then). I recently came across and old tattered and yellowed paperback in my closet called”Pulling your own strings” about mastering your own life and not seeing yourself as a victim. There is a reason why it was still tucked away.
I had a 61/2 month relationship with Mr.MM. Now, that is the epitomy of EUM on his part and on mine. He was a master of future-faking, passive-aggression, pushing the reset button and just about eveything else that Natalie talks about and helps us realize and cope with what is actually happening. I’d never met anyone who was such a charmer and at the same time an expert in manipulation. I was a widow who’d had a very attentive and devoted husband that has passed away 6 years prior to the advent of the EUM. He was a contractor who had been a platonic friend for several years and suddenly started putting the moves on me. Apparently, I had been sending signals that I wanted this attention because he flat out kissed me passionately and without any warning of his intentions, and I fool that I was at the time, returned the kiss. That started the worst self abusive relationship I had ever indulged in. After 6 months of him blowing hot and cold, disappearing, lieing, and generally treating me less than, I went NC. I had fallen hard for his game, and lost all insight as to who I was, let alone abandoning my values and self-respect. I was an emotional wreck and thought I could not go on without sharing a part of my life with him. Fortunately, I discovered BR, purchased a lot of self help reading materials and began seeing a therapist. All of the work that I did on MYSELF eventually paid of as I was able to extricate myself permanent from a very psychologically damning situation.
Now, I am seeing a man who gives me the respect, care, love and trust that I deserve. He is about as opposite in personal qualities/characteristics as he could ever be. He has awakened in me those qualities and has actually brought out the best in me. But, I know that he would never have come into my life if I had not first changed my entire way of seeing myself , enforcing boundaries and changing my modus operandi. I see everything so clearly now and have enjoyed the healthy relationship that I previously thought was unattainable. I am at peace. I have none of the acute emotional distress and self-doubt in myself and/or in him that I experienced in the previous relationship. I’ve learned to care, love, trust and respect myself first and formost and I live my life authentically. I can say with conviction that I’ve morphed into a different person who will never go back to who, what…
Isn’t it funny that as a friend they’re fine, but the moment they cross into relationship territory, all hell breaks loose.
I was told I was “immature” and “jealous” by a now ex friend after my at work AC pulled his shenanigan s last year. Jeez, I think pursuing a woman for two years, asking her to go to the city over a weekend with him, then giving his hotel room key to another woman about a half hour later, is kinda immature. So was showing up with her that evening and wondering why I got the hell away from there rather than making nice and playing along. I also thought that it was pretty immature of him to ask me why I was upset and then get angry and despise me when I clearly and concisely informed him why. Maturity would have been owning his behavior. I think I did the mature thing; immediate no contact, throwing myself into hard work to help heal, and dumping Ms. Toxic girlfriend who thought “the he was just being a guy” and I should just suck it up.
Great article! My ex EUM pulled the friend card on me many times over the past few years and tried it again the most recent time we split up. I said no way and refused to see him or speak to him. He stopped contacting me, but then started poking around on my friends FB site so I deleted him. These guys have no right to stay in our lives when they prove they can’t make a true commitment. So, cut contact on all fronts. It’s not immature, it’s actually a very adult and responsible thing to do. You will move on much quicker.
Some people might say it was immature or even unfair of me to tell my ex that he was “a terrible boyfriend,” the night I dumped his ass. I also told him he’d treated me like crap from the get-go, and that his friends had warned me he was a terrible boyfriend, but I made the mistake of not listening. I said my peace and never looked back. I later was told by some of his friends that he was very wounded I’d been so hard on him and completely cut contact. But really, didn’t he deserve it? He was a narcissist who treated me with disrespect and cruelty and helped me waste two years of my life.
Why take the high road with a cruel narcissistic jerk? If you can make yourself feel better by finally delivering your own final verdict, I say do it.
It’s been a year, and that’s the one thing I definitely do not regret. It won’t change him, but it sure made me feel good to get it off my chest.
you’re all going to think i’m nuts.
i’ve posted here before how hard i’ve worked on myself and for how long and how much BR has helped me. and i’ve learned how to love me, i’ve written a manifesto on how i’m matching my actions to my objectives with dating and relationships, and i’ve put boundaries in place with other people. i’m totally walking the walk. externally, it looks great.
but i think maybe i have no boundaries with myself. because internally it doesn’t always look so good….because i don’t seem to be able to disconnect my brain and my heart from my ex-EUM.
i keep journaling about it, meditating on it, getting busy doing other things, exercising, working, interacting with family and friends, dating other men who treat me far better, going to therapy, working on healing my abuse and narcissitic injuries, keeping busy, put myself on an internal form of NC with him…
so why is he still under my skin?
he never really treated me right, with care and respect and totally just forget about actual love, and he called me immature instead of trying to empathize with my point of view. he managed me into the status quo, kept me on an emotional subsistence diet, blew hot and cold, was emotionally and sexually stingy, etc. and now he’s online claiming to be capable of and to be offering the love he never gave me.
…why would i still miss someone like that? why can’t i get him out of my head, my heart, my bones? why can’t i be happy he’s gone? we’ve been broken up now for longer than the relationship lasted. WTF?? i have moments of realizing what ridiculousness it is to spent one more second thinking about him, feeling him, and i’ve commented here that i got to the point at which i realize it would feel like freedom to be rid of this, but…
…i’m not, not completely. and here i am writing about it, embarrassing myself in front of all of you.
help? do i really not have boundaries with myself? is it that i can’t say no to myself? or that i can’t say yes….
change the self talk, say “I can get over this. I am getting over it. I am healing. I I am better than I was”
Keep a feelings diary. hopefully you’ll see that you have good and bad days, it’ s not all bad. Right at the height of the excrush/whatever anxiety i would check my notes and realise that there were mornings, afternoons, an hour that I felt fine.I told myself, today may be bad, but tomorrow doesn’t have to be.
I can now look back over my feelings diary and see that I am MUCH less anxious than I was six months or three months ago. It’s like a different friendship altogether.
When I find myself thinking anxious thoughts “What will I do when I see him?” “He said x, what does it mean?” “Am I making a horrible mistake?” I shake my head and say out loud NO, and that stops it. My simple approach now is just to enjoy him and deal with red flags should they arise. Genuine red flags, not ones I make up in my head. Your simple approach should be “I am happy, I am healing”. And humour helps, I laughed about this with my sister and it puts it in perspective.
Also, be aware that everyone has sad and bad days. We are very used to sad and bad days being caused by men so we hook those sad and bad days onto the latest man in question. For instance, I would be stressed about the excrush when I was carrying out tedious tasks. Or feeling fat. I know I’m doing better cos when I’m bored, irritated, got a headache, I don’t blame him.
Finally, I have been through all this before and got out the other side so I KNOW I can do it. You may not KNOW you can do it, but cc, I KNOW you can. Trust me.
There is not a single post or comment that I’ve read which makes me thing “Yeah, that man was so great and this woman is so hopeless that she can’t get over him. ” I always think she can. If only she believed it.
my grace-
i wonder if the comments i write to people make them cry good tears. because the “i KNOW you can” part i would have written to someone i thought needed it, and you just wrote it to me. and there are tears standing in my eyes. you ranted for me. i’m so touched. thank you.
i guess…you’re right. i don’t know i can. because i haven’t yet. i’ve gotten a LOT better, lots and lots and lots. but we broke up on january 24th. and its now june 26th. that’s 5 months, and the relationship was only 4 1/2 months. i feel like a utter, fukkin’ moron.
maybe…my therapist kept telling me the relationship technically shouldn’t have happened at all, because, before our 2nd date, he did 3 things that individually could have disqualified him, and together certainly added up to 3 strikes yer OUT. and yet i went ahead and had a relationship with him, thereby busting boundaries i didn’t even have yet, and whattaSHOCKer, it didn’t work out.
so maybe this boundary thing is the key. maybe i don’t really believe my own boundaries yet, or maybe i don’t trust myself to opt out of a situation yet, to risk walking away and believe there is better out there. …like i tell everyone else there is for them. so, do i give others awesome advice that i can’t take myself. am i full of shit? jeeez…
you’re a brave girl to still be friends with the ex-crush, i can’t imagine how difficult that must have been. that’s incredibly strong of you.
thank you for giving me some of that. yeah, i think i’m having a bit of a bad/sad day.
ok. i am happy. i am healing.
<3
Also, cc, if this is an epiphany relationship for you, I wouldn’t judge your recovery time on the length of the relationship. If it was a 4 1/2 month thing that only happened because of patterns that have been in place or building for twenty-five years, then it’s normal for it to take some serious time to get over.
I was still allowing the exAC a lot of space in my head over a year and a half after we split and we were together for a year. But he was just the most recent embodiment of all my compulsive attachments, fears, etc – it wasn’t HIM I missed, but the whole complex of values and maladaptive coping strategies I was trying to unload.
I was over HIM in a matter of weeks, but getting over the fantasy (which would surface in my mind as memories of him) took a lot longer. I wouldn’t sweat it; this is you kicking the habit for good. Give yourself another year, even. I don’t mean to dwell; I mean to do all the things Grace suggested, all the moving-on practice, all the self-love practice.
In fact, you can expect that practice to last the rest of your life. In time, memories of the ex will fade, but you’ll now have awesome self-care habits.
You can cc. I cried a river of good tears thanks to everyone here. It would be hard to top my moronness of two years as an OW. But I’m not claiming to be a special moron. Just an average moron as things go. Here’s the good news, Natalie’s “dating advice” and everything she has written as well as every comment on her posts have been my guiding light. Sad/bad days are a part of the healing process. Those sad/bad days totally suck. For me, my boundaries have been a raft. Yeah, it sounds rather simplistic, establish boundaries and then enforce them. It really has worked for me even though I still struggle cos the FBG habits run deep. Keep healing, eyes on the prize…YOU. Write your boundaries down. It was a sobering moment when I first tried. I flipping didn’t have any. I had to keep reading BR over and over to find my boundaries. Now I could list at least ten on the drop of a hat. And, I’ve enforced at least five of the ten…within the last week. Write them down. It was a pivotal moment when I tried and couldn’t figure out what to write. 3 strikes is 2 too to many. I’m a one strike girl now. At 50-something, it’s one strike and yer out. 50-something guys with no hair, a few extra pounds, and several ex’s can’t climb on the pedestal anymore. Too little time left for AC BS. I’m way, way happier without AC BS, lying, cheating, deception, and text messages to boot.
I like the idea of writing the boundaries down. I have to think in literal terms with boundaries, and have mentioned this before, but I imagine an invisible barrier separating me from others. A barrier that words can’t penetrate or actions can’t penetrate. That way, when someone does something considered “offensive”, I remember, “Its not about me” and it keeps me from reacting, protected, and I keep my distance if need be. Also, it keeps me in check from crossing others boundaries as well. (Boy, I learned I was good at that!! LOL!)
Does that make sense??
cc – you’ve definitely made me cry tears in a good way before now!
I like the way that magnolia has put it. You aren’t just grieving a relationship, you’re grieving an old way of being and facing up to the fact that a lot of cherished beliefs were mistaken.
I know that everyone’s different but, if it’s any consolation, I was where you are a couple of months ago, wondering if I’d EVER feel really happy again and then – bang – one day I woke up and I just did. The grief had gone and I was left with a lovely life.
That’s not to say that everything’s going to be perfect forever and I can’t guarantee that I won’t have relapses, but I’m not scared of the future anymore, partly because it’s pointless (“which of you can add an hour to your life” etc) and partly because I know that I have the tools to cope with difficulties AND it’s in my power to use them.
cc,
you are not embarrassing yourself here at all. You are wounded. It can take all of a second to break a bone very badly yet take many months for it to heal. You are probably now not trying to get over him per se but struggling to heal from the damage he caused. Take all the right medicine and lots of TLC as you are doing and when you are good and ready, you’ll be just fine again.
CC, you´re not nuts, that´s just how emotions work. They are far slower to catch up, so it always takes a while for them to run their course. But the thing is, when you really feel them (this opposed to repressing them), they do lose their hold over you eventually. Sometimes pretty fast. So don´t take them too seriously.
Also, never judge yourself for the way you´re feeling.
(If you scrape your knee, will you find yourself silly because it hurts? No, you just say “ouch this hurts” and take care of your knee until it heals.)
The important thing is this: are you going to act on them or are you going to do the right thing and protect yourself?
So don´t fret it, your emotions need some time to process things, just go through the motions of how you´d like to feel – which is what you´re already doing – and after a while your emotions will match.
So nicely stated Lilia. Your comment brought tears AGAIN. “Also, never judge yourself for the way you´re feeling.” Nice and thank you even though it wasn’t meant specifically for me. Your response really helped me. Thank you.
It took me 9 months of intensive work to a year to get to where I am. Yes you do have self-trust issues. A massive blank spot opened up in my life and for many months I have moved on from it but hadn’t moved on into something else (a new me).
Sometimes it can take a while for the changes to set. I have to say that waking up and learning BR was like waking up after a nuclear bomb blast and then having to learn a new language. I often refer to my dating and relationship experiences as “a blank sheet” because that’s how much I knew!! Nothing!!
You will make mistakes and there will be costs. That’s actually normal and a part of life.
Well…. just trying to guess why you might mistake longing for love… and why it’s grip on your brain and emotions is so much stronger and long lasting with an unavailable man… your agony might have roots in childhood. If you had relatively nice, normal parents, disregard this. If you had an abusive or critical parent(s), and they told you it was love, you will have distorted emotions and perceptions that could last a lifetime. Intellectually, of course, you know what is true and what is not, especially after reading books and this blog- you can see other girls wasting time and you just know that the guy they are blogging about doesn’t care. But your brain/heart chemistry needs to be reworked b/c nice guys (who are good for you) don’t tug at your heart strings and they don’t feel like home- and they don’t ‘get it’ (your pain). You might want some one who’s behavior is off, b/c that feels more like you feel. You may feel like you need some one who is acting inconsistent, because you can ‘handle’ it after your upbringing? And, you feel like you can understand them better since you know where they are coming from? It is probably not an exact science ,(neuro-psychiatry) but I’m sure there is a way to improve (cure?) it. Gosh, I hope so.
magnolia, runnergirl, lo j, yoghurt, fearless, lilia, ToA, and anon-
thank you all so much. i don’t usually come for support, i’m the helper, not the helpee, but i feel so blessed and grateful. and each of you nailed it in different ways.
yes, my upbringing (as i’ve catalogued exhaustively here) was *very* abusive. yes, the EUM felt like home, like kin, and not necessarily in a good way. yes, 3 strikes is 2 too many. yes, i’m probably still grieving an old way of being, even though i’m on cc version 8.0. yes, i’m probably over him in certain ways, but NOT over attachments to the past/residual old ways of being. and maybe that kinship with him kicked off ancient behaviors and set me back, creating a lot of hard to repair damage.
i guess what’s so confusing for me is that i have worked SO hard for SO long, with breakthrough after breakthrough, and with my growth accelerating in part because i found BR immediately after we broke up, and yes, reading nat’s posts on why we hold on to hurt….and i have literally remade myself, a couple of times now, put in boundaries, dived into self-love and self-care, written that letter to my inner little abused girl (i should post it here) who was trying to get over him, and i already KNOW all that stuff in the paragraph above…and yet i still feel this lingering attachment to him.
but here’s what i thought of today: because of the way i grew up, i don’t realize when there’s too much pressure on me, my gauge is broken. having lived all my life with too much pressure, internal and external, nothing kicks in to say ‘this is too much’ until its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much and i’m already imploding. this applies to everything – work responsiblities, my own internal critic, family responsibilities – everything. it makes it so hard to take care of myself, even when i’m making self-love and self-care a priority.
this may also contribute to not being able to let go, and marveling, in pain, at others’ ability to let go (sometimes of me). it also makes me dependent on others to steer me, guide me, stop me from hurting myself and from allowing myself to be hurt. my self preservation instinct is damaged. and i try SO hard to stand on my own two feet, i don’t want to be dependent, i’d rather be florence fucking nightingale.
so…ok, the one thing i have not done is write down my boundaries. i’ll do…
…boundaries. i’ll do that.
thank you, my lovelies. its weird to be taken care of. …its like…its like snuggling in a box of sleepy, well-fed puppies. kisses to all you puppies.
Learner … he’s not committed. He’s getting sex from multiple women, ego strokes and obvious pedestal view because of you, and the benefits of marriage. Oh yeah, he’s a liar liar pants on fire and will tell anyone anything to keep getting his cake. He ain’t special. Has no values. None. See him for who he is. You deserve better.
cc,
Don’t beat yourself up about it. I’m in the exact same position, and I know it is frustrating, wasting time over someone who, at the end of the day, is now completely irrelevant to your life. What comforts me is knowing that when my mind wanders to the ex, it really has nothing to do with the ex. I usually go there when I’m feeling anxious or upset about something else.
It’s not about the ex anymore. You really have moved on. When you think about him, it’s just a reflex, a “go to” that you’ve developed, kind of like a tick that you wish would go away. Once you become aware of this, he will become really insignificant and start to fade to the background.
Remember, be patient with yourself! Hang in there.
kerry-
thank you…yes, i read what you write, and what grace and others have written about having the AC or the EUM be the go-to thought when we are feeling down or vulnerable, but it feels like its the other way around…however, maybe it isn’t. maybe its a mental habit, supported by a heart-based connection.
and i tend to cleave. i mate. and its very hard to break that bond. but break this bond i must if i am to be well. maybe i have some grieving to do. who would i be if i broke this bond? would i float off into the atmosphere?
i’m always telling others to be patient with themselves. thank you so much for reminding me.
CC- You may want to re read Natalie’s post “Why am I stuck on hurt.” (Can’t remember title verbatim.)
I don’t think you are supposed to separate head from heart. That’s what emotional availability is. its feeling. You have to go through the emotions of healing. Its not a “logical thought process”. And emotions are ever changing. And sometimes there may be a trigger that causes us to re-visit our past relationships. And it is usually something else that we might need to heal from our past.
For instance, this past week, I thought of my ex a lot, kind of second guessing myself, thinking maybe it was ALL me, that he had been emotionally available and I had been overly jealous, too sensitive, etc. (As he liked to blame me for everything.) I REALLY was second guessing myself, and trust me, I have felt firmly implanted as of late on who I am, my boundaries, self esteem. But what I realized was really going on, my mother, who belongs to a very rigid, dogmatic religious organization (from which I have been “shunned”) has implemented the shunning of me, no phone calls, texting, all communication being through my children. Before, I would call her, but this time, after she was cold to me in front of one of the members of the group, I decided to respect her beliefs and have made no effort to contact her. For the first time, I have had to grieve my relationship with my mother, to see the manipulation of this religious group for what it is, remember how it was to belong to this group with the manipulation and control and blame, the not feeling good enough, and recall that I was stuck in the role of scapegoat in my family and with my religion. (SO many factors, not worth mentioning.) With this new awareness, I saw exactly how I WOULD readily accept all blame. And it was an enlightenment into why I have been involved with the men I’ve been involved with. The great thing is, I had those negative feelings only one day. Processing goes much quicker these days!! And, I was assured of my spiritual path as well. “Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” – John 8:32.
Go with your feelings, allow them, read the posts on the relationships with your mother/father. Maybe that’s a start?
oh, lo j-
see? we need to mother ourselves, to nurture ourselves. i’m so angry on your behalf that your…do i say this?…your own mother sacrificed you on the altar of religious fanaticism. it never ceases to amaze me how people can be sooooo RIGHTeous about some beliefs, religious or not, yet patently and criminally ignore much more important, fundamental, and LOVING beliefs….like being sure to properly care for your own baby girl.
i cannot imagine the strength it took for you to NC her, but you know you did exactly the right thing, and you seem to have done it with such easy grace. thank you for being so generous with the empathy you were not shown.
I am just sad for my mother, really, because she is a slave. She will never know true freedom, true love. Its just sad. I’m angry that religions exists like this. People who can’t get into touch with their own feelings are drawn to them. They are told exactly what to do, what to think, how to feel. It is heartbreaking, and my mother will never see it for what it is. I think my own emotional availability threatened her, my boundaries, hence the implementing of the shunning. And I have been nothing but loving and positive as of late. Isn’t that amazing.
Lo j :
“They are told exactly what to do, what to think, how to feel. It is heartbreaking, and my mother will never see it for what it is.”
Just wanted to let you know that my mother is also involved with a strict religious “community”. I was not allowed to contact her for 4 years, as decided by the leader of said community. It was also heart-breaking to see what she went through in order to “belong”, and I empathize fully with you.
CC. – am I reading some shame? When I felt OVERWHELMING shame after my breakup, Natalie recommended I write an unsent letter of forgiveness to myself. It was after this that it just clicked with me. It was about the 5 month period as well. Forgiving yourself is SO IMPORTANT.
lo j-
yes, shame. for loving him. for choosing him. for not loving or choosing me enough. and for not being able to put this to rest as of yet.
ok, forgive me. thank you. again.
THANK YOU Natalie for mentioning the item of the sex club, this request must be the freakiest I´ve encountered so far from an EUM/AC, and I can´t believe I actually considered it at one point… when my self esteem and self awareness must´ve been in a coma… and it kinda sounded worthwhile, just to get to see the harem king again…
Aaargh!!
Now, months later, I still get IMs from him trying to “tempt” me with this outing… it is quite a thrill to ignore him. Of course, this sets on a new series of texts and emails and fb stalking. But it´s just some lazy internet blahblah, I can´t hear him. Nor see him. So who cares? I don´t.
Lilla,
What’s keeping you from blocking?
Allison, good question!
I´ve been about to block him many times, but then I guess I don´t want to seem THAT hurt to do something like that. Some pride thing?
I´m fighting really hard not to feel like a victim in this situation, I´ve been so completely manipulated by him.
Not sure if it´s a good idea, though. It would be a relief to erase him.
First, major, major props for this website, the depth and breadth on topics and WOW the writing style. Totally blows me away, got a journalism degree and spent 20 years in writing. 🙂 Yep, lovin myself :Nice touch to keep it classy. (not so much on the profanity) )The ‘you have helped me so much’ theme is well deserved and I can only echo it., My personal situation is a EU, well MM (divorce taking over two years due to money?) with narcissist tendencies. Yep, fell in love. Beyond comprehension. And I thought I was a smart girl. 🙂
But here’s my last message before going NC: (Should note i tried for three weeks and then he went death-in-the-family on me)
My lack of response to you is simply necessary, not an attempt to be unkind, manipulative or an oversight. If you are currently going through an especially hard time, I would suggest you reach out to a professional or to someone who is currently in your life and whom with you hopefully you have a record of a mutually supportive relationship. That is not me. Take care.
cc, honey, don’t beat yourself up! it’s pretty much normal behavior. sometimes, when we are so close to our goal, we get scared, and we think we’re not gonna make it. you will make it, i know that. the fact you’re thinking about him, does NOT mean you actually CARE about him, never mind LOVE him. it’s probably because you’re bored or something similar. it’s very important to learn how to cope with our own bad moods without having the need to go back to the mr ass. cause you know he’s not gonna help you. the power is in your hands. just for the record, you are one of the sweetest and most caring persons here, and just knowing he treated you badly, is enough for me to see he’s a gigantic ass.
titi-
aw, you’re a love, thank you. and thank you for calling him a gigantic ass. that’s a giggle i needed.
the thing is – i DID love him (even though i have to admit i didn’t like some things about him) and i think its hard for me to handle the fact that i still do, a bit. i would have given him anything but my last shred of self-esteem, and that’s why i forced the breakup, i could no longer tolerate not being treated right. but, on top of everything else i’ve already described, he clearly didn’t love me back. and that is my tough nuts. and that is also what i have to let go of.
because you’re still right, i need to break the habit of having him as my go-to internal pity party. or anger party. or shame party. or rebellion party. it IS my power.
and lo j is right too – i don’t have to be ashamed of loving him, even though he wasn’t a smart choice, with his 3 (one of them pretty shocking) strikes, and his obvious emotional unavailability. shit, i loved someone. that’s more than he was able to do! and i didn’t waste someone else’s time, asking them to wait for some mythical unrealistic future when i was crapping all over the present, driving them crazy with my mixed messages and my Mr. Spock nature. the fact that he’s now out there supposedly offering “passionate, faithful” love to someone else just adds insult to injury to disease. ugh. cheese and rice, WTF!
yep. gotta let go.
anyway, nuff of me. i bet you’re all sick of this. i know i am.
CC – I’m not obsessed, I promise, just feeling your pain. it was about the five month period that I felt the shame and the buried hurt. (AND, I peaked at his facebook and saw evidence of his possible dating of others. NOT A GOOD IDEA. NO CONTACT. I even asked a friend of mine, dear friend who totally respected my feelings, understood what I was requesting, to delete him so i wouldn’t be tempted to ask about him. I’m so immature. Ha ha!!) Keep on feeling, working through it. Don’t stuff it. (I am a little surprised your therapist said this relationship shouldn’t have happened after the three strikes thing … that, I’m sure, felt a little shaming to you. I am sure you were paraphrasing??) when I was in therapy, BAWLING my eyes out, I asked my therapist, “when does this get easier? when do i start working and getting better?” She smiled and said, “you are doing the work.” When we acknowledge how we are feeling, that we are feeling, that it is okay that we ARE feeling, not dismissing, justifying, or fiddle-di-di-ing and onto the next (ie, caretaking of others is a great way to avoid your own stuff, *clears throat*), and get these feelings out, we can move on. I cried when I needed, no apologies. Get it all out. And read Natalie’s stuff. SO much is that old garbage we are carrying around that we don’t even know we still have.
One thing that Natalie said in a video that I hear in my head in her voice often is, it is okay to love and to want to be loved. I didn’t get this message as a child, and i doubt you did either. And we picked the men who got the same message. So now, we have to play that message to ourselves, believe it, love ourselves, and one day, we will love someone who believes the same. You will get past this.
sweet lo j-
i understand, and i appreciate it, i too have felt this resonance with what someone was saying was resultingly protective.
to answer this above and the one below:
– i know what he’s saying about his EAbility because, as i confessed a couple weeks ago here, i peeked at his online profile. yes, i know, MISTAKE, and i’ve forbidden myself to look at anything anymore. i felt compelled that day to look because i knew, i felt a ripple in the force, that he had changed it, and guess what, i was right. this is partly why i’m having a hard time letting go – i can FEEL him. i don’t imagine this, and i don’t know how to shut that sense off. its not like closing your eyes or blocking your ears. but, yes, NO CONTACT, got it, and trying to cease that form of contact too.
– no, my therapist didn’t actually say “this relationship shouldn’t have happened”, that’s what i deduced from her asking me why i would entertain someone who did strikes 1, 2, and 3. i actually said that to her, and she gently assented. and i too have wailed to her “when will i feel like i’m making progress?” and she’s smiled that same smile said “you’re doing it, right now”.
– part of the reason why i’m so frustrated with myself is that i HAVE read natalie’s stuff, over and over and over, and done everything else i’ve listed, and that i suggest to other sufferers on BR, but i guess….i need to uphold my boundaries WITHIN myself and BELIEVE that i have the right to not accept less than what i want, what i dream of, i need to further evolve the permissions, the compassion, the inalienable rights i accord myself.
i think…
because yes, what you said about the messages we got, or didn’t get, is right on. i guess even though i’ve come so far, something deep in my core doesn’t yet fully believe my new messages. i’m not fully EA to myself.
oy. its hard. but, yes, you’re again right, there is no way he’s spontaneously combusted into the man i saw he could be. and even if he has, he’s not here offering it that me. and what he did offer me was so EU … “i wish i could paint a pretty picture and have us step into it” … and i have to stop asking why he didn’t/couldn’t paint that picture. because painting a pretty, and REALISTIC, picture and stepping into it is what every successful couple does. he just didn’t want to be successful. and i have to let that be his problem not mine.
i have to stop letting him mind fuck me. because, he probably didn’t mean to, but that’s exactly what he did. to a faretheewell. i have to unfuck myself.
thank you for all your help and warmth. thank you thank you thank you.
Runnergirl, Fearless, Lilly, Magnolia, Grace, LoJ and others,
Thank you so much for your support as I extricate myself from this difficult, and as Fearless says, Toxic situation. In admitting to the shameful details of my life over the last 3 years as an OW, I have opened myself up to be judged and I am certainly feeling some of that today. I also feel this is a new beginning – that I am not alone, that even though I feel small and hurt and ashamed and, well yes – moronic when I reflect on my behaviour, that there may be some who can understand and even relate to my situation. I need to figure out my boundaries as I can’t even think of one of them, as you experienced at first Runnergirl. I guess one would be “From now on, I will not have a relationship with an attached person”. Which book of Natalie’s has the exercise for values and boundaries? Also, Fearless, yes – I know my exMM through work, but we are at different sites. We are on a committee together that only meets every couple of months, so it will not be a daily issue. I must search for that “NC at work” article Lilly mentioned. It has been 24 hours since I emailed him to cancel lunch and ask for time and space apart. He immediately responded, saying he was sad but respected my decisions and hoped we could “keep in touch”. He reminded me of the “love of his life” status and proceeded to ask me a work related question. I emailed back a few hours later and told him we no longer had a relationship and only to contact me for work issues. Today will be the first day of NC. I feel empowered, but also sad, bereft and lost. Yes, Magnolia, it is time to work on me! Thanks again.
@Learner
I have been where you are at one time in my life, an OW many many years ago. When I finally chose ME and ended the 7-year affair, I experienced a slew of emotions…bad habits are hard to break. Of course he begged for me back, but I STILL chose me! I muttered the “let’s be friends”, but I didn’t mean it. When I doubted my decision to end it (the bad habit), I forced myself to remember the valuable reasons why I HAD made the right choice…I chose ME!!! It will be an emotional journey for you, but feel every bit of it. This time is yours, only yours, no sharing with anyone else, YOU get to experience from this and grow…how exciting is that, right? YOU get to own this wonderful growth experience that will lead you to the self-love that you so richly deserve and have denied yourself. Let your light shine lady!
Also want to share two article’s of Nat’s with you, to help you on your journey…”Dear So & So: Sorry. My heart/libido/ego/imagination says yes, but my self-esteem says NO” and “I’m Not That Woman. An Ode For Every Woman Who Has Loved, Lost and Forgotten Her Value”
This website is SO empowering…so many authentic, beautiful voices in one place…THANK YOU NML!
BRwisernow – thank you for sharing your story, and for your encouragement. The messages from the authentic, beautiful voices of BR are sometimes difficult to hear, but they are a breath of fresh air, and very much needed! I like your ideas of “choosing me” and of fully allowing ourselves to feel our emotional journeys. Due to my own dysfunctional (don’t like that word, but don’t know a better one) family of origin, I think I have tried to suppress some of my feelings. You give great advice to feel it all, to achieve the growth. I will also look for those articles of Natalie’s that you referred to. Thanks again 🙂
Hey Learner,
Congratulations on your decision to go NC. I really like what Fearless said to you in her last post about what you may encounter in your upcoming journey.
I’m sorry that you feel as if I was ‘toasting’ you. Honestly, I am not trying to judge you, but I am deliberately trying to judge the situation, as you have explained it.
I think that by you coming on this site, and speaking as honestly as you can about your situation, at this point, shows real courage and strength, and you have handled the “toasting” quite well, so I applaud you, and I encourage you to maintain NC, or as my mom would say “Stay the f*ck away from him.”
Take care of yourself Learner. As you go through this process, I hope you will always show yourself only love, trust, care, and respect.–you truly are worthy of your own respect and love.
Reality Rita – Thank you! Deep down, I know that the “toasting” (Grace’s term) is meant for the good. I don’t know if I explained my situation well. It is difficult to convey a full description of any one of our situations on here, which I am sure you know. My description was bare-bones, and missing many nuances that occurred over that 3 years. How much do we write on here so that we are understood but do not seem to drone on? For the record, I did not just glibly expect him to ditch the wife and son to be with me. In the “full version” of my story, the exMM’s wife was portrayed as a cruel, cold, disrespectful woman by the MM and the MM’s sister. His sister said she had tried to get him to leave the wife for years as he was obviously miserable. She actually suggested that he was “too responsible and too much of a martyr to leave his wife, but if he could, he would want to marry you”. and “Please don’t leave him because if you do, he will be miserable.” Her saying those things does NOT rationalize the way I conducted myself. Come to think of it, I am glad to be free of him AND his sister’s dubious suggestion that I be “on the side” for him indefinitely! I am taking your mom’s advice one step further, and staying the eff away from the exMM AND his sister! Time to commit to NC and take care of myself, as you suggest. Btw, I did appreciate your dose of reality. I HAVE been living in some alternate fantasy universe – the “Queen Bee” made me laugh though. That’s just not me. Take care and thanks again.
lo j – What you said about forgiveness made me sob like a child. I am very forgiving and kind to everybody except to myself. I’ve just realized that I have never forgiven myself, but instead have punished myself for every failure and mistake. No wonder that all my relationships (three in total) have been with EU men who, in all honesty, have not treated me any better than I have treated myself. I ended my last relationship with MM in February, even though I’d never thought that I would be the one to walk away from the “love of my life”. I buried my dad seven years ago, and my dad was the greatest man that had ever lived. If I could do that, I can do anything.
I am forever grateful to BR and all you wonderful people; because I am reading and learning every day.
We all can relate and have felt the gut wrenching shame. (Maybe not with affairs with married men … though I personally have crouched naked in a closet while a pregnant wife has rung the doorbell incessantly because her husband has not come home to her. Ouch! And that was not my only dalliance. ) Learner, no one is judging. We are just showing you WHAT IT IS. It ain’t some pretty romantic relationship. Its an affair covered up in a lot of manure. We are just helping you dig through it. Write down WHAT YOU WANT. I bet a man who cheats and lies is not on your list. Write down who you want to be. I bet a woman who sleeps with married men is not it. We understand you, not judge. 🙂
Learner – You can download a copy of Natalie’s book ‘The No Contact Rule” from the BR site where you will find details of how to do NC when you work with someone. I’m sorry that you have felt judged. By sharing our experiences we do open ourselves up for potential criticism, but it can sometimes be incredibly useful. As you so rightly say you are not alone and I wish you lots of luck with NC.
CC – how do you know he’s supposedly available and passionate for another? Seriously, knowing NOTHING is the best for you. And I venture to guess, unless Jesus has returned and personally healed this man, he has not changed. Really. You would see it if we were in your situation. You are exceptional, but not the exception! 😉
Thanks for this, Nat. It’s spot on.
“In olden times, would you sit outside their house watching their life unfold? Er, no.”
Ohmygod, that just made me choke on my Diet Coke. True story!! I had a friend tell me I was “going to look immature” when I defriended my ex on Fbook. I mean, come on, what possible good could it do me to watch an assclown wax lyrical about on Fbook about how drunk he was/how hot all the college girls were at the bar (yeah….he was 32)/what a great person he is (no, literally, he wrote status updates on what a great guy he was. I sh*t you not.). I told her I could care less if I looked immature for wanting nothing to do with a douchebag. She insisted it would look like I “cared too much.” Bottom line is, if I know someone is an assclown….the hell do I care what they think of me?!
Interestingly enough, I wound up having to end that friendship because her cracked-out “advice” (and by advice I mean, “Do as I say or I’m going to hound you relentlessly about situations that have nothing to do with me. Don’t want to go out with the guy I want to set you up with?! Batten down the hatches.”) I think a lot of ladies that are new to BR will be surprised to learn that, once you start setting boundaries in one area of your life, it becomes easier to do it in EVERY area!
Lo J and Lilly. Thank you for helping me to see that I may have been judged – I was just getting the reality check that I needed to keep on climbing out of my mess. All from people who have “been there”. To be honest, thinking about all the comments helped me get through the first day of NC well in that I hardly had time to think about HIM. I was mulling over the ideas on BR in the time that I normally would have been obsessing about how long he would take to answer my last text, or email, or come online to chat. Speaking of which, I have started to avoid further manure pile-ups by unfriending him on Facebook, deleting every non – work email he has ever sent me, removed him as a contact from my instant messaging service, and getting rid of some of the things he has given me. Lead weights are being let go. Boundaries are being put in place. Feeling understood now, and so grateful for you all!
LoJ and Lilly. In my last comment, it should have read “Thank you for helping me to see that I may NOT have been judged”. Careless typing that totally changed the meaning. Sorry!
Its okay. We knew what you meant. I would block him as well on FB. The checking him or knowing anything at all is a real set back. And getting rid of items, for me, was also very cathartic. I actually had a bonfire in my back yard. I did keep the Ray Bans, though. One day I may wear them again. ; -) You deserve better. Let the work begin!!
Natasha,
This line:
“Don’t want to go out with the guy I want to set you up with?! Batten down the hatches.”
Perfectly describes a situation I am dealing with in my life right now. I have a frenemy who has *always* been difficult and high maintenance, but has become quite impossible since her marriage. She has married a nice, kind, sweet, wealthy man who treats her like the Queen of Sheba at home. Recently, she tried to set me up with a friend of ours who’s somewhat down on his luck. Actually, he would be homeless if he wasn’t living in her home! He is not all that good looking and not very nice, either. He has real Jekyll and Hyde tendencies and became verbally abusive to me on our first “date.” Both the guy in question and my “friend” tried to tell me I was being immature for taking offense at his blatantly cruel remarks and actually having the gall to stick up for myself. Luckily, I shut that down cold, but she has made a show of ignoring me and freezing me out since I declined his “advances.” i have had to go NC on all three of them at this point. (This is easier than it might be because we live in different states.) Personally, I think this “friend” just doesn’t want anyone to out-do her in the romance department: she has been publicly critical of my sweet college boyfriend and recently tried to talk me out of two sweet guys: one a gorgeous, college-educated football player and the other, an equally good-looking widower with a steady job, a military contract, and a palatial home who’s actually been treating me right (although we’re not actually in a relationship yet, just the initial flirting stages) and displaying an appropriate level of interest in me despite his emotional baggage. i’m realizing this friendship has always been toxic and that this woman does not have my best interests at heart. I’ve made allowances for her in the past because she can be very sweet and generous at times and is critically insecure about her weight, but she has pulled stunts like this before. She once blatantly tried to steal a boyfriend from a mutual friend of ours and then tried to pass her behavior off as “harmless” flirting (when everyone within 100 miles of the situation could see that it was anything but). I’m in the process of slowly trying to extricate myself from this friendship, which is painful because we’ve been…
… I’m in the process of slowly trying to extricate myself from this friendship, which is painful because we’ve been friends for so many years (I even officiated at her wedding) but at this point, I am tired of putting up with her crap. I’m not being immature; her behavior is totally out of line and this is one relationship in my life that has to go. Time to push my mental flush handle, as Natalie would say!
My partner loved going to Sexpo. I agreed to go along, though I figured I’d be bored, as hey sometimes you do the boring things to make them happy if it doesn’t cost you much, and I’m pretty liberally minded with sex.
Then I got the flu and was laid up in bed. He still wanted to go, on his own. I was uncomfortable with that. Playing as a couple, where I have the right to veto anything I’m uncomfortable with is fine. Not having that opportunity is not fine.
I’d never been to Sexpo, and when I googled the program guide I was shocked. It wasn’t like any expo I’d experienced, where people stood around in little stalls and handed out business cards to the punters. You could get a lapdance, play strip poker, watch live shows from porn stars. Whoa!
We fought over it, and I ended the relationship (it was the last of many straws). Here’s where I got gobsmacked: I had a few mates…all women…who sneered at me for my decision. I got things like “I thought you were cool?”, and “I guess you’re not the cool girl after all”.
What the WHAT???!!!
It stung for a moment, mostly cos I was taken by surprise…till I remembered, I’m 39. NEARLY FORTY! I left high school a looonnng time ago. I just could NOT believe that the word ‘cool’ was even in our middle-aged vocabulary. I cut them out as well. I don’t need that kind of silliness in my life.
Besides, everyone knows that nowdays geeks are, like, the new cool 😉
My ex was/is super skilled at making me feel old-fashioned, possessive and non-progressive because I didn’t like it that he continually talked to me about other women he found attractive. This began right in the beginning of our being together and I told him I didn’t like it but 2 and a half years later he was still doing it, under the guise of being ‘honest’. He’d never forget to tell me if a girl came on to him, sometimes saying he was tempted or he wished he was single, she looked beautiful, he liked her etc. More than once saying ‘why don’t you look at me like that?’ or ‘I really wonder if you love me as much as she does’ (when a serial relationship attacker came on to him with all guns blazing, and professing her ‘love’). But if I complained about it he’d make me out to be possessive and unreasonable, and he really made start to believe it too. To him, he was this progressive type who recognised that all men are looking and liking all the time and at least he was honest about it. His repeated assertion of this point still warps my view of men and makes me dread having a relationship again. I still waver between thinking he was just doing it to torture me and to make me jealous and insecure on one hand; and on the other, thinking that I am just too possessive and jealous and insecure and I should have let him have more freedom. Sick how they warp your mind and make you doubt your own judgement. All I know is if I was making him sad repeatedly, stopping him being sad would be more important to me than my ‘right’ to be honest at all times. I mean why doesn’t he tell that kind of thing to his guy friends and leave me out of it? What did he expect me to say? Oh that’s great. Yeah she is really beautiful, I’m glad you are attracted to her. Really what did he expect?
After a while I thought I’d let him see what it was like and piped up when I saw a hot guy in a movie or something (not in real life, unless he asked me). When he asked if I found any of his friends good looking I was honest and rubbed it in a bit, telling him which ones were hot and seeing how he liked it. I guess this was juvenile behaviour. But then when it came to me complaining again about his non-stop reports of the availability and interest of other sexually attractive women in his vicinity, he brought up that I did it too and thus I was being…
Part 2.. thus I was being hypocritical. Ughh. A horrible mess.
I went no contact with him two weeks ago and was doing really well until yesterday. I’d written to a friend who asked how things were going with us, and told her the whole situation about how I’d decided to break it off for good and go no contact, and that I’d been saddened to find out he’d been sleeping with a friend of ours since I left him (and then somehow I became his casual lover?!) I really don’t understand why she wrote back what she wrote, because I would never in a million years think it was helpful to say to a friend that was grieving. She said yeah it must be so hard for you, knowing that they are doing all those nice romantic things that you guys used to do, now together; that she makes him happy, and that he was in love with her (I didn’t know any of those things actually, thanks for giving my hyperactive imagination some tidbits to torture me with first thing in the morning when I wake up :'( She said I guess it tells you that he was over you already, because he felt so strongly for her. Seriously what the fuck?! Who says these things?! The weirdest thing is until now she has seemed a really very sweet girl and we have a growing new friendship. Someone please tell me why she would think it was helpful to say such knife twisting things?!
Now I’m back in adrenaline, sick feeling, doom and dread pervading my reality, not being able to get it out of my head “he was in love with her” and wondering how he could be so into her when he was totally emotionally unavailable to me, and even told me he wasn’t sure if he ‘fell in love’ with me (he said he did love me though). What a horrible web I am in. One thing that’s made me feel better is seeing how many other talented and valuable women have been sucked into these traps of torment, of being addicted to someone who won’t stop dishing out pain. Sorry for my rant but it’s been rumbling round my head for weeks and I feel you people are some of the few that could ever really understand!! Yours in solidarity. We can do better than this.
Wren,
“…that she makes him happy, and that he was in love with her (I didn’t know any of those things…”
Your “friend” doesn’t know any of these things either!! Your clueless ex b/f had not one clue about what he felt or what was making him happy so how the hell can this woman know. She knows eff all about this guy and hid feelings, she just doesn’t know she knows eff all. Pay her no heed – none. Yes it is a cruel. Think about NC-ing her too! and the b/f doesn’t know his arse from his elbow – give him a very wide berth too. You’ve learned a useful lesson from this – if you don’t like the way a guy is treating you, don’t mirror it back to him, show him your own boundaries and values and drop him. There’s nothing more annoying than a boyfriend who keeps banging on about how attractive other women are – at best it’s disrespectful to you; it also makes you feel ‘less than’ and very insecure – ALL the time! Your first gut instinct was right. In future if something makes you feel uncomfortable knock it on the head right away, listen to yourself – not to mean know-all, know-nothing so called friends.
wren
drama and gossip.
You always knew what he was and are now being diverted from that by your outrage at his behaviour and now your outrage at your “friend”. Yes she’s insensitive but that doesn’t have to tip you over the edge.
“One thing that’s made me feel better is seeing how many other talented and valuable women have been sucked into these traps of torment, of being addicted to someone who won’t stop dishing out pain.”
We trapped ourselves. He can’t dish out pain if you’re not there accepting it. Until you recognise that you’ll be forever chasing What He Did To Me! There’s no satisfaction there. Refocus on why you perservered in the insanity and how you can avoid it in future.
Other people – him, your so-called friend, his new girlfriend, even other women in the same boat don’t have the answer. Don’t look there. You’re using those things to keep you mired in the helplessness.
For what it’s worth, it’s unlikely that the new relationship will work out.
And no, not all men comment on other women. My brothers don’t, my brother in law doesn’t, the men at work don’t, the men at church don’t, my friends’ husband’s don’t. Iv’e known men who do. Asshats the lot of them. They don’t change so quickly, if at all. And even if they do get a permanent girlfriend, it would be someone who allows them to be who they are. Who believes that’s what men do. Who’ll find herself in an insecure marriage. Who’ll be tormenting herself over every stretchmark and wrinkle because she has to compete with every other woman out there. He can fall in love with you, he can marry you, he can have children with you. He can do all of that without actually loving you.
Set your sights higher and stop believing that this torment, addiction, pain, gameplaying, high drama, anguish, fantasy and outrage is love. It’s not even close and it will be a very lovely day when you realise that.
Nuke him. Have nothing to do with him. Don’t listen to gossip about him either. You’ve got your own life to live. You can’t live his. It’s crap anyway.
He is not that special.
Yes you can do better. DO better. Don’t wait for it to come to you while you carry on as usual. Make it happen.
Thank you so much Grace and Fearless. I know you’re right, my “friend” hardly knows the situation so she’s just making up some crap probably for her own reasons. And those reasons shouldn’t mean that I have to go into a tailspin. Also, perhaps it’s the wrong train of thought to be going down but I think to myself, if he really was in love with her then why did he stop seeing her (all unbeknownst to me) when I came back in to the picture? Surely if he was in love he’d have just told me he’d moved on and kept it going with her.
But all that is by the by. I’m refreshed to hear your assertion that not all men feel this need to comment all the time. Surely I knew that all along! But a part of me felt naive for expecting otherwise. I did know from the beginning that something was amiss, and I am probably distracting myself from the important process of letting go by being embroiled in more drama. It’s so hard to accept that I am choosing this drama and pain though when it feels like all I do is try to avoid pain. I guess I avoided the right kind of pain (kicking his ass to the curb) and put up with the wrong kind of pain (a slow death, 2.5 years of an unfulfilling and frankly painful ‘love’ relationship).
I do want to move on but I also have this feeling that if I don’t vent on and examine what’s happened that the experience will fester inside me and I won’t have fully let it out and let it go. But then I can see quite clearly it can become an addiction of its own, focusing on ‘what he did’ and how that made me feel, instead of going out and building the life I’ve been craving all along.
I have gained some incredibly important insights through this process. Especially about my need for external validation and the kind of situations that I end up in because of it. I think this experience with the “friend” was also a great lesson, painful and unwelcome as it was. I’ve realised that I look to others to say the right thing to make me feel better, when I really should be looking to myself (99% of the time I know what I want to hear, and that shows that I already know what the answer is). And the friends and people I look to to say the right thing to make me feel better a) have their own motivations, off-kilter views and subjective viewpoints and b) often don’t know the situation well enough or know what it is that I want to hear validated. Confusing, but it makes sense to me at least.
Thanks so much for reading and for your kind, honest replies. To echo what everyone else has said, this site is Literally A God Send.
Hi ladies,
I am hoping to get some advice.
My ex ended our 15 month relationship last fall. He had a former gf waiting in the wings. The first few months I tried ignoring his contact the best I could. I had never experienced a break up where the guy continued to contact me and it left me utterly confused. In January, I wrote a letter that was very clear, and I asked him not to contact me unless it was for the specific purpose of putting our relationship back on track. That worked until he sent an email in May to wish me a happy birthday and some other drivel. I sent a short thanks, hope all is well. A few weeks ago I got another email, which I ignored. He followed that up with another one a week later. I ignored that too. Now he is texting asking if I got the emails. I didn’t respond. Tonight he sent another text going on about how he was hurt that I didn’t want to be friends. At this point I am angry because he has not once recognized or even acknowledged that he hurt ME! The content in the emails are all about him and his needs and desires. He is also showing no respect by disregarding my request for NC.
Should I continue to ignore? or send a response making it clear that I don’t want anymore contact? I went against my better judgement when I thanked him for the birthday wishes, even though I waited a few days and kept it brief, I can see that was a mistake.
I really would like to just tell him off and give him all the reasons he isn’t a friend. I am pissed that he has the nerve to tell me he is “hurt”….what an assh@!&!
kerber
Ignore, ignore, ignore. When I’ve NC’d I’ve not told them why or that I was about to do it. They know why. And if they’re stupid enough not to know why, my explanation will hardly edify them.
If you must say something, keep it short and simple:
“Stop contacting me. I’m not interested.” Then ignore, ignore, ignore.
Don’t tell him off, don’t tell him you’re hurt. He doesn’t deserve to know what you think and feel. He can bog off.
Believe me, your dignified ,crushing silence says a lot more than the blah blah blah that they hear when you start explaining yourself.
Thanks Grace. I wish I would have seen your post last night, I really wanted to continue the ignore option. The problem with this guy is that the ignoring escalates his contact, as it did last night after I wrote my post. He called me at 1:30, I ignored, then he sent some texts, I ignored, he called again and I answered because I was so annoyed that he was violating my boundaries. In one way it felt good to tell him that I think he is an asshole and all the reasons I don’t consider him a friend. He still didn’t get it. I’ve never seen someone who was so hell bent on being friends with a person who thinks they are an asshole. He must be feeling guilty and is looking for validation that he is an okay guy. We went over and over why I didn’t want to be friends and he continued to rationalize everything I said. I asked him if he was dating someone and he said he was. I told him that I had a problem with that and he thought it was perfectly fine. I wonder how his GF would feel if she knew he was calling me so late at night to convince me that we should be friends? And I am sure she has no clue that in December he was at my house making sexual advances.
I think he got the message last night, hopefully I will never hear from him again. I’m going to see if I can get his number blocked today. I didn’t sleep at all last night because of his shady BS. It is so clear to me from the way he broke it off to all his behavior afterwards that we have different values, and it would never have worked out. I am glad it’s over because I know I dogged a bullet.
Thank you Natalie for sharing your insights on this blog. I discovered your website back in December and it has been a tremendous help and support for me. I was finally over this guy in May and hadn’t thought about him for weeks. Since my ex enter the scene again I feel like I’ve had a setback, but I am hopeful it will be short lived. Best wishes to you.
Thank you for sharing your experience kerber and thanks for the good advice, grace. My birthday is coming up and I know there’s a good chance I’ll be hearing from the AC.
I thought it might be worth sharing that my ex did text me an apology for hurting me. I know it’s only a text but considering the person and situation, it’s something that has some meaning for me. It doesn’t excuse any of his behavior, but at least he is human enough to express some form of remorse.
It’s easy to want to demonize someone when they have hurt us. There is no excuse for the bad behavior, however, I have found it helpful to have a greater understanding that many people operate and make choices based on fear. Sometimes that fear is so overwhelming, it drives people to make decisions that end up hurting themselves as well as other people. The fear is real and is hardwired in the brain. I know my ex lets his fears control his life. It’s really sad because he is capable of being a person of great character. Once my initial anger (which is also fear based) dies down I’ll end up feeling pity for him.
FX
I’d stick with NC. If he is ever truly remorseful he will be motivated to make things right. He would have to “earn” his way back into your life. In my situation NC worked, I was able to heal and learn and move on, which is what NC is really about. Good luck to you and Happy Birthday!
omg — the pic of the goats is one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen — just cried from laughing!!! so great.
One has just tried to hang something like this one on me.
He’s been blowing hot and cold for ages, there is always some excuse as to why he disappears and if none is available then he will just do so then return with an apology for being a d***.
Anyhow, this Saturday he was back with all the usual speel, even sending poetry. Sunday I text him – no reply – although he managed to find long enough to faff about on facebook and update his profile pic. He’s had it facebook deactivated for some time and had told me he’s not on there. This also happens periodically and yes I have a very good idea why that might be. If asked tentatively about (and quite a few other things) that he will say I am reading too much into it = something wrong with me.
Anyhow, I called him on not replying so now I have “issues” = something wrong with me. Told him the only issue I have is with his constant walking in and out and that it’s his lack of common courtesy that’s the problem since he expects a reply if he texts me. I guess he was expecting an apology or a drama but he’s had neither, he got a shock instead. I ended that text with the comment that I am not up for an argument or fall out and that as far as I am concerned we should leave it there. I was feeling rotten, I nearly did apologise. But I am so glad that I didn’t – it’s true I have to face facts if I don’t stand up for myself he will keep doing it.
I certainly am not kicking myself now since about two hours later an old friend (okay yes I admit a very good looking and nice male friend) of mine invited me to what promises to be a lovely day out which I couldn’t have said yes two hours earlier. I’m not going to jump straight into another relationship (mind you I am not entirely sure I have been in one anyway?), but I am made up. Result and goodbye assclown!
I am posting this to explain a bit more about why I shut him out for ignoring my texts for one day and so I can read this back next time he thinks to walk back in – which will be in a month or two – when the next victim sees through him. I want to remind myself not to fall for his false charm, remind myself that he thinks my having boundaries regarding decent behaviour is me having “issues”:
I trusted him, I believed the things he said – he lied and didn’t deliver.
He told me he’d been single for two years – then said he was living with his “ex” for the kids and hadn’t told me because he didn’t want to put me off. I was understanding when he said he was sorting his life out and leaving her because he said she was abusive toward him and had cheated on him. So I waited, he disappeared only calling now and again to make arrangements to meet but stood me up time and again. I was still understanding because his excuses seemed genuine. I was fooling myself. All in all, after 2 months of heady romance he had just stopped seeing me. During the next three months he saw me once and that was only because he didn’t know I was turning up. I spent those three months in absolute confusion, tears, wondering what I’d done wrong, a couple of occasions even too upset to go to work.
But it got easier, I kept NC and got on with my life, even managed to get over it enough to have another short relationship which had a mutually friendly end. Only then he turns up again – saying he had only disappeared for TWO weeks when he was leaving his ex and I had cheated on him, that I should have made sure we were over first. How the hell was I supposed to think we were still together, it was over three months since he’d seen me? (incidentally I think he’s either perpetually going back to her or not actually leaving at all). It was oddly convenient too since I’d just discovered (or should I say another woman had shown me and not in a very nice way) that he had been going out with her. I was mad at her for the way she did it, but the best thing to do was nothing because I knew he’d do exactly the same to her and he did. He’d turned up saying the same thing on her FB page as he’s said to me “sorry for being a d***”, she was an ex of his and had just broken up with someone else. He had told me that he’d only gone to her because he needed someone to talk to (ie, poor me she cheated – funny that sounds familiar).
Next thing he reappears a few more months down the line with “I tried with her but she didn’t match up to you”. Incidentally, the girl he’s just dated (and disappeared on) removes him the very second he re-adds me. I am wary. At the same time he’s trolling his facebook harem and asking out every woman who’s just changed her relationship status to single – what I now realise was hunting for vulnerable prey (he either does not know or care that I can see this or does not think it’s disrespectful). Telling me he misses me, wants me back and what we had was special all the while. Hmmmm. Called him on what he was up to on FB, including his obvious online dating and guess what….he’s sorry for being a ****. Modified his behaviour slightly, but the disappearing still carried on.
Anyhow, over the course of three years he’s been messing me about. I fooled myself for a long time. I fooled myself into believing he meant it every time he said he missed me and wanted to try again, when really he was just coming back to find out that I still wanted him = ego stroke, because every time I weakened to him – piff paff poof and gone again.
This time he’s back and I tell him clearly that the disappearing act is not acceptable, he says he leads a complicated life (aka not going to change), I tell him I can not choose that and try to go NC. Then his persuit becomes relentless, he apologises, texts regularly, doesn’t stand me up, acknowledges what he did was wrong. I make the mistake of thinking he’s changed and boom there he is back in my life again and I find myself trusting him. Mother of all mistakes. Yet again he assumes that because I had been understanding of what he said were his problems he can walk in and out, not text for days/weeks and I am back in a situation that I really don’t like. The relationship is all on his terms. Only now I’ve got real, I did have boundaries but feeling sorry for him and his problems I ignored them. Never again. This weekend I finally decided enough was enough. Sunday was my late father’s birthday and he knew it would be a difficult day for me. I text him to ask how HE’s doing and he ignores me. This time he has no excuse since he was too busy changing his profile pic on facebook and most likely getting his ego stroke from other women to bother texting back (yet that is what he expects when he texts me). He’s run out of excuses so the only form of defence is attack. I don’t have boundaries, I have “issues”.
I had thought I was stupid for being fooled by him, but not now that I can see him for exactly what he is thanks to a lot of what is written on this site and from comments have realised I am not alone, neither am I bonkers. I feel disappointed and cheated and I am going to allow myself that for a while because I need to be angry with him to remember what an AC he is. But, I also feel liberated, safe in the knowledge that I have been grieving for somebody that doesn’t exist. I was grieving for the man who brought me a rose on the first date, not this self confessed d*** who calls my boundaries “issues”. I can’t want a man who doesn’t exist and therefore there is nothing to grieve, only an experience to learn from and one which I will never repeat. I have been lucky enough not to have come across a man like this before and this one has taught me every trick in the book. I won’t be suckered in again.
Just caught your posts Jenny. You are not alone and you are not bonkers. When I first started developing and applying boundaries after reading BR, he told me I was bonkers too. Like you, I was upset all the way along but he kept convincing me that it was just me…he was married and I was a mistress. Thus, the fact that I couldn’t deal with the circumstances of being a mistress was my issue, not his. Of course, I had no boundaries and did not dare say NO because I might be rejected…a rejected mistress! Dear lord, what the what was I thinking? These guys can twist reality into such a fantasy, if we let them.
I was angry for a long time and it is difficult grieving something that didn’t exist. I know it’s easy to say and much more difficult to do but don’t let him walk back into your life. I lied to myself too every time he said he “missed me”. At one point, a long while back, when he texted “I miss you, we belong together”, I responded “miss you too, then why aren’t we together”? Save yourself the grief of responding to that inane miss you text. It’s just more of the same shit. different day. Never, ever, ever will I feel sorry for some poor messed up dude that “misses me”. He’ll be with me, not texting how much he misses me. End of story. No more romance novels, classic or modern. As Fearless says, pfft. Miss you my arse! It’s actions, not texts. It’s boundaries and you aren’t bonkers for having boundaries, unless you are with an AC. AC’s don’t like boundaries.
Thank you runnergirl. Still keeping strong, couple of blips, but nothing serious.
He’s been on facebook half the weekend commenting on statuses of mutual friends that he knows I’ll see, this he never does, usually only bothering to update his own. I need to go back on and block him. I know he’s bothered but at this point realise I must make the distinction between him being bothered about me and his ego being bruised because that’s all it is. If he were truly bothered he wouldn’t have overstepped the mark in the first place, he knew where it was drawn.
Looking at the bigger picture which I am forced to do at this stage, everything about him and his behaviour is shady, everything he says is vague or ambiguous. He had said “let’s just get things back to how they were then we can see where we are going from there” – roughly translated I think this means – I want my leg over, I want you to think I am wonderful again and when you do I will be validated – then I will do one again.
I am beginning to think AC is an alternative name for narcissist. He always said nobody really knows me – that would be true given that all he projects is a false image of who he really is, I don’t even think he knows himself. He has to be adored and you have to believe he is perfect, else he’s out the door. Over-exaggerates his achievements (and boy was I in trouble when I accidentally found that out). Odd work habits – odd occupation, new ventures never last long and it’s always someone else’s fault, even though he is ambitious and capable at what he does. He can talk and talk about how people have hurt him – but I know I’ve never had the full picture (she did X, she hurt me, failing to mention the fact he was doing Y, probably in the most literal sense). I am beginning to think that the only person this man has empathy for is himself. I’ve “known” him for 20 years, “dated” him during the last 3. I do understand why he is the way he is (childhood), but my empathy (or the sacrificing of my self esteem) for *him or rather *his ego is spent. He always used to say “nothing goes right for me”, no what’s it Sherlock, curious if he will ever figure out why that is (slap hand) I shouldn’t care.
Thanks again “AC’s don’t like boundaries”, I loved that and won’t forget it 🙂
Jenny – I am having that same phrase thrown at me every day: “let’s just get things back to how they were then we can see where we are going from there.” Does that even mean anything? Why would we want to go backwards. And “WE” don’t want to go backwards…YOU do. I want to build a relationship which means moving forward. Things can never go back 100% to when you first meet. And frankly, I don’t know how to turn off the feelings I have built over the last year in order to play this going backwards game. Now, if I do anything that is not getting us back to where we used to be I am scolded and told that I am supposed to be working on this. But what am I working on doing???
Jenny,
I symapthise, really I do – I had plenty of issues with my now ex EUM (arse) for best part of a decade but I had precious few boundaries, and I’d say you have had the same problem with this guy. You have had your issues with him but the truth is you have not had boundaries (self-evidently, or you wouldn’t have put up with his shitty behaviour for three years); you have merely paid some lip-service to “boundaries” with him – talking about them or knowing what they should be isn’t the same as having them. When men behave like this guy does, having boundaries means ending the relationship and not going back. Don’t bother having anymore “issues” with what he’s up to on face book (he’s a prat) – apply a boundary: block and un-friend him. For good. And not just on f/book, in real life too)
Lilian, I think the idea – ie, what we are supposed to be doing is lowering our expectations lol, no way! Fearless you are absolutely right – blocked facebook and blocked his phone number from my mobile. No going back – ever.
My friend came back to town yesterday passing through, took me out for the day and we had absolute scream. I feel like I am smiling for the first time in years and am positively glowing. No better medicine than laughter! No dating yet I promise, working on myself, or rather why I carried on wanting that AC once I knew he was one. But, oh my, what a turnaround! 🙂