Don’t forget that I’m on a ‘break’ until September so I will mostly be featuring some of yours and my favourite posts from the archives.
Yesterday I read this wince worthy article, All My Exes Live In Texts: Why the Social Media Generation Never Breaks Up (this could have been me!) and it reminded me, not only of why it’s critical to avoid collecting exes if you don’t want to be managing numerous crumb relationships in Never Never Available Land, but it also reminded me of why it’s even more important to stop this whole let’s be friends bullsh*t that we engage in after we break up with a shady ex. This post is one of my most read posts on being friends with your ex.
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One of the issues that is frequently discussed and debated in dating and relationships is the whole issue of trying to remain friends with your ex. I’ve written about it so many times over the years and yet I continue to be baffled as to why, particularly with women, we seem to have a hardcore desire to throw ourselves at the front line of pain with exes that mistreated us.
The reason why we want to remain friends with our exes, even when they have treated us ‘less than’ with an absence of love, care, trust, and respect, is because we want to feel valid. We often spend so long feeling invalid, that friendship is like the last chance saloon.
We’ve expended emotions and energy on the other person and are heavily invested.
Bad enough to feel rejected because they cannot (or refuse to) be and do as we would like them to, but we then convince ourselves that if we don’t continue to be a part of their lives after the breakup, we’ll feel even more rejected and invalid because we’re not even ‘good enough’ to be kept around on the periphery zone as a friend.
It’s not just feeling valid though that will have you itching to offer or take the hand of friendship; it’s hoping that they’ll miss you enough to come crawling back on their hands and knees and beg to be taken back.
It’s wanting to be there on some terms rather than no terms. It’s trying to be The Good Girl (or The Good Guy) because you don’t want to seem as if you’re being immature. It’s a willingness to accept a downgrade because you think you can shag your way back up to being the girlfriend/boyfriend. It’s wanting to keep tabs on them and to have a hand in their lives.
More importantly, remaining friends with your ex, aside from being some sort of validation of your worthiness, the act in itself makes the process of letting go somewhat less painful. Call it ‘putting off the inevitable’.
However, when someone has treated you with an absence of love, care, trust, and respect, attempting to remain their friend in any capacity is a grave mistake that those who attempt it learn about all too quickly.
When you choose to remain friends with someone who didn’t treat you well, you actually validate whatever negative ideas that they have about you plus, it’s akin to giving them a Get Out of Assclown Jail Free Card.
You see, in life, there are universal societal norms that exist whether you live in a big city, tiny town, little village or a mud hut in the middle of a jungle and it’s this:
When we break up with somebody, if we really have treated them without genuine love, care, trust and respect, they will not want to be our friend. If they do offer or accept the hand of friendship, then it equates to ‘I’m Not That Bad’, after all, I’m good enough to be considered a friend.
In the hands of someone who has at best, taken advantage of you and at worst, abused you, you are screaming with your actions ‘I DON’T RESPECT MYSELF ENOUGH‘.
Whatever deluded ideas they have about their reasons for not treating you decently in the relationship, you just legitimised them.
They just got off scot-free and should you ever find yourself in the position of telling them all about themselves, some will have no shame in reminding you that you either offered or accepted the hand of friendship.
Life requires consequences and it is the only way that we learn from our actions and get to connect the dots with what results.
Shady folk, and yes assclowns, don’t experience enough natural consequences. If they did, they’d have to address their issues.
Instead, where one person won’t put up with their assholery, someone else will. Even worse, too many people take responsibility for their behaviour and then hunt them down for validation.
If the consequence that you create for someone after they have used you up in a relationship, is to not only offer or take the hand of friendship, but to continue to be there for a shag, an ego stroke, or a shoulder to lean on, or hanging around, waiting for scraps of attention and behaving like a dutiful friend, the only ‘consequence’ that they are learning is that they can continue to reap the fringe benefits of your misguided affections. There are certainly no negative consequences.
Let me say, as I’ve said many times before: If someone didn’t treat you with love, care, trust, and respect in the relationship, you can be damn sure that they will not make a friend of any reasonable level once you’re out. The same person that doesn’t give a damn about your feelings isn’t going to give a hoot when it’s over. They’re not thinking about you; they’re thinking about themselves.
Have some self-respect because trying to be friends with someone who has little or no respect for you will rob you of your dignity. That’s you robbing you, not them.
Every.Single.Time you play happy clapper friends with an ex that mistreated you, you’re saying I love you more than I love myself and you didn’t actually treat me as badly as you know or I know you did, because if you did, there’s no way in hell I should be giving you the time of day let alone anything else. That doesn’t actually mean that what they did didn’t happen, but it’s you that’s watering it down by trying to massage your ego with friendship. You’re marginalising yourself and you’re also marginalising what you experienced. You want them to have even an iota of an idea of what they have put you through? Cut.Them.Off. Let them miss out on you. Let them go and mess with someone else.
It is not your job to fix/heal/help or teach them a lesson so that you get to be ‘right’ and validated.
In life, when it comes to breaking up, we all have narcissistic tendencies. We want to feel less rejected or feel like less of an asshole. But it’s best to keep your ego in check because if you let these desires overwhelm and hijack you, you will make friends with the wolf or if you’re the assclown, ‘friendship fake’ to make yourself feel less of a creep.
If you broke up with someone because they couldn’t give you the relationship you want and they treated you without love, care, trust, and respect, your only option is to distance yourself from them so that you can grieve the relationship and move on. Don’t try to be their friend so you can validate yourself and be ‘right’ because you’re doing it at the expense of your self-respect.
Use No Contact for several months and put a complete focus on you, and if after you have genuinely spent 100% of your efforts distancing yourself from the source of your pain and doing everything to let go of the relationship, heal, and move on, you still feel a burning desire to be their friend, go ahead and put your hand in the fire. Trust me when I say it will still burn, but it’ll be a lesson learned.
There is another universal relationship norm that many people believe in which is that you ‘should’ attempt to be friends with your ex.
What is forgotten is that you need only attempt to be friends with an ex that 1) treated you well and 2) where enough time has passed and you have both gotten over the loss of the relationship. Let me assure you, for those of you hankering for friendship with people who didn’t treat you well, this is not you and it would serve you well to remember how poorly you were treated instead of trying to magic up a friendship out of thin air.
Your thoughts?
Holiday update:
I’ve painted the girls’ bunk bed, something I’ve been meaning to do for nearly a year. It was fun! And messy.
I must need my sleep as I haven’t been able to keep my eyes open long enough to watch the rest of Orange Is The New Black or to read more than a few pages of a book.
I did start watching a film called ’10 Years’ this morning (check me with the lie-in) with Channing Tatum. Lots of ex tension in this. It reminded me that I want to watch 500 Days of Summer again.
The house looks like we’ve been burgled as I’ve been on a decluttering rampage. Thank feck the cleaner’s coming tomorrow although I tidy in advance of the cleaner coming. Yawning already…
Been doing lots of arts and craft stuff with the kids. When my back was turned they splattered the wall with paint… Bejaysus!
I’ve replenished my underwear drawer, something else I’ve been meaning to do for months.
I get a pain in my finger every time work related stuff – hilarious! My body is saying ‘Hurry the eff up and get back to your holiday!’
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I had 3 rounds of break-ups with my AC ex (all of which were initiated by him), but all 3 times I refused to be friends with him. I told him I didn’t need another friend, that that’s not why I was with him in the first place, that I don’t consider those who mistreated me “friends”, etc. I went NC and moved on with my life, except that he got in touch after 3 weeks, like clockwork, and I caved and responded. Big mistake. Anyway, all 3 times, we got back together. Then, this last time, the 4th and final break-up, I knew it was final (for me anyway), and I knew I couldn’t accept him back again without officially giving myself the title Doormat and never really being able to shake it off, in my head. So I decided being friends with him was better than not having him in my life at all. It wasn’t an attempt at shagging my way back into a relationship (I would never have sex with him again, no matter what, if only because he goes to Thailand and I don’t want to get AIDS/STDs). Heck, I am not sure why I wanted to even be friends with him, given how angry I was at him, not to mention disgusted (he had cheated on me and I had forgiven him, only for HIM to break up with me 3 months later!). I think that part of it was that I wanted to keep him in my life and keep tabs on him, as a reminder of what a shitty person he was. For example, being friends with him on facebook allowed me to see that he “liked” pictures of scantily clad bartenders on facebook pages of bars in my city, etc. That really confirmed my low opinion of him. Maybe that’s why I wanted to stay “friends.” Our “friendship” would’ve been only a facebook thing (and maybe the occasional skype text chat). I certainly didn’t think of him as a “friend” in the proper sense of the word. The worst part is that while I stooped so low as to suggest being friends with him (to which he responded “I don’t see why not”), he removed me on facebook and skype a mere 2 weeks later, after I posted a picture of myself with the caption “I haven’t felt this good in a year” (we had been together for the past year). I felt so stupid after realizing he had removed me. I felt like I should never have asked to be friends in the first place — now I feel like he did, again, what *I* should’ve done. Not only did HE break up with me after having cheated on me, he also threw away the friendship when *I* should not have accepted it in the first place. It’s part of his way at getting back at me for injuring his ego by that picture caption. It’s always been a control/power trip game with him. In a way, I lost the power by wanting to be friends with him, and before that, in the relationship, by being trusting, and forgiving. With ACs, you cannot do that, without it coming back to bite you. Now, I see no need to be friends with men who do not treat me with respect. I don’t even respond to their texts or answer their calls, if I even so much as get the slightest hint of disrespect.
I really needed to read this today! I have 2 ex’s that I dated this year that this pertains too…Why do I seem to let this happen in my life…I have no clue…til I read this!! They both have treated me poorly…now I know…it’s time to distance myself from both of the jerks!! TY!!
Went thru hell with an EU male. Not even sure if it was that or just me being ‘needy’. Let me tell u, I’m intelligent, am socially adept, can adapt to my environment, I make an effort to look good and I try to not be what men usually complain about. So being little Miss Perfect, I’ll obviously fall for the guys who treat me like 2nd best. As for my latest relationship,in the beginning, he freaked me out with his fast forward nature. But my other side was so obviously flattered because this man wanted me so bad! What a load of BS that was! He turned out 2 pursue till when I started 2 feel him withdraw and once again obviousy tried 2 get him 2 go back 2 the future faker shit he’s been doing all along. I lose myself so much with people giving me an ounce of attention that I wonder wtf I think of myself! I hate what I am like, I really do!! And my children suffer with this emotionally unavailable mom and I realise its been a few years where I’m promising them that ‘a man will come and make it all better’, no in so many words though. I hate my life.
Don’tknow……..Please do not tell yourself you hate your life. Please do not let this man/men rob you of your future, your happiness. Don’t let him rob your children of their mother.
I really do understand. I was in exactly the same position. I knew there was something a bit “off” with all the future faking and fast forwarding but I was just lapping it up cos it felt sooooo good to be so wanted/admired/cherished.
So a few weeks later and it’s like Tabitha, oh yeah, well she is OK to hang out with, but let’s start throwing her crumbs cos all that idolising her seems to have gone to her head somewhat and she actually has expectations of me. Maybe me telling her she was perfect and I was desperate to have a meaningful relationship with her was a bit, erm premature. I don’t know how long you have been here on BR but keep reading and trust in the NC process. It does work. Yes it does. It does. It just does.
Oh my god, Tabitha. You seem to be summing up my last relationship.
How can people be so two-faced? Confused? Chameleon-like? Power-hungry?
It is crucial not to fall for future-faking and flattery. One must always keep their sceptic cap on and stay tuned to their inner critic or auditor, distinguishing facts from fantasies.
It made me sad to see you write that you hate your life. I just went through the same sort of thing as you … Getting carried away with future faking, the flattery, recognising my own neediness, losing myself. All the same as you. But the fact that we are here, being honest and self aware, is such a good thing …
I do believe that there’s light at the end of that dark tunnel for you and for me. Maybe not a knight in shining armour on a white horse, but contentment, stability, inner calm and balance, whether single or not.
Mary W… I love what you wrote:
“Maybe not a knight in shining armor on a white horse, but contentment, stability, inner calm and balance, whether single or not.” Those feelings are priceless to me.
Nat… so glad your enjoying your summer break and getting caught up on things. I have a very long to-do list but one by one I get them done. I know all about finger pain. Mine is in my little & ring fingers. Have had so many test run in the past year to no avail. Its very frustrating and sometimes I just want to cut them off.. but I know that’s not the solution so I will keep visiting the hand specialist because he is suppose to figure it out eventually …right?
Kit-Kat, I recently heard from a psychologist that pain in a limbs and desire to cut them off is psychological, some people have this and way to treat it is not with hand specialist because there is nothing wrong with your fingers, it’s in your mind.
same to you Mary. I know it is hard to let go but yes we all deserve to be happy alone. One day when we are ready, then we can probably give our heart again.
Don’t Know,
That is a heartbreaking statement.
Please don’t tie you happiness and value to men, as it is not fair to you or your kids.
Please take a year off of dating to understand what brought you to this place. Once you understand, you can begin to break some bad patterns- A healthy you, will attract healthy people, not creeps.
You and your kids deserve a healthy life.
I used to think the same, man will come and my life will change dramatically and he will bring me wealth, success and happiness! Yeah right, BS! NO, it is up to ME to make my life successful, fullfield and happy! I am 40 now and grown up woman and do not rely on men anymore, I simply give them up as I NEVER EVER MET A DECENT AND LOVING GUY, if I did not meet Right guy before 40 what chance I have to meet him after 40?!
Yes I feel bitter, but hey, it is life, so we have to accept and move on:) ALL THE BEST, at least you are not alone, you have kids!
aw, little star.
sounds like you are empowered to make the life you want and wise to understand that a man won’t bring you wealth, happiness, etc. if you don’t already have it.
life is disappointing sometimes, but also lovely and mysterious in all kinds of ways. I’m 43 and I haven’t met a long term partner yet either. I have put myself in a position several times to get hurt in relationships by wanting more than was on offer. But you just. never. know. even after 40.
Hey Little,
How are you??
Girl, I’m in the same boat, but will turn 50 in September 🙁
Many people find love in later years, and I know we will too! Stay positive, my friend!!!!!
Lizzy and Allison, thank you for your kind words!!! IT is not even about age, but you probably know my story about two ACs, I was so disappointed with them, it hit me SO HARD, so I totally lost hope in meeting a decent guy! I think it is better the way I am now, do not expect phone calls/messages, no dates…FED UP! I love being alone:) Hope you are doing well my lovely virtual friends xxx
This post might be good for you to read. I have just re-read it. I have a Meet Up event booked for this Saturday – slightly dreading it to be honest as I’m horribly shy, but I am actively trying to make new friends. And that might lead to meeting someone special in real life (not from a dating site!)… or it might not. But either way, even if I just make some new friends or enjoy a night with good company instead of having a pity party on my own.
Might be worth a try for you, too? I think that trying to find “the one” (I am guilty of this) is counterproductive so I open to new approaches and hopefully enjoying myself along the way….
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/dont-scratch-the-loneliness-itch-with-the-wrong-scratcher/
Nat,
Thank you for reposting this blog. My “not over my fiancee who died 3 years ago” EUM contacted me recently after a year and a half. The clincher is that he was reaching out when the one behind me dumped him. I waited a week and replied with a thanks but no thanks and explained that he didn’t treat me the way I deserved to be treated in the relationship or during the break up and that I felt it best to leave the past in the past. Clearly, he didn’t learn anything, hasn’t changed, hasn’t healed etc. He just leap frogs from woman to woman to avoid dealing with his own shite. The only reason why I have such clarity and firmly closed the door is due to NC. You can’t gain proper perspective by being their friend and further more, with guys like this, IT’S ALWAYS about them when they get back in touch. Close the door and lock it.
I too went back time and time again, and nothing changed. Mine could only stay away about 4 days, he would break it up, run off to someone else he had on the side, and I would be too stupid, naïve to realize that is what he was doing.
I don’t want another unavailable man in my life, therefore I have to set the limits, I have to realize I deserve better, and stop forgetting about how I feel, and make excuses for unexcusable behavior.
I have done this mistake of being “friends” with my exes way too many times, sometimes several mistakes with the same person. I can confirm that it is the worst idea ever to let someone who mistreated you back into your life. It is like loading gun and handing it to them knowing they’ll shoot. And they always do. Never again.
Oh Nat,
Thank you again for this post. I feel like such a fool for giving my AC ex a ‘second chance’ after he came crawling back 6 months after our breakup. I thought enough time had past that we learned something, and this time things will be great. He was a future faker/fastforwarder when we first met, completely sweeping me off my feet wanting to marry me and show me off to everyone on the face of the earth. It turned out he was nothing more than a middle-aged man with MAJOR Peter Pan Syndrome, just taking advantage of his youthful looks. But I wasn’t completely innocent either, I was a real bitch to him and I thought I could make my amends the second time around. However this time around he was emotionally detached and wouldn’t even give me the title of girlfriend after 6 months of being together. Finally, I decided to cut off this bullshitting and disrespecting myself and ended things with the AC. I am sad that cutting him out for good would also mean cutting out his family who have been nothing but incredibly nice to me. As I’ve learned in the past year, life goes on and pain is really temporary. It’s truly difficult to see the light at the end of the tunnel during this time of pain, but the pain could linger for a much longer period if we still keep contact with AC. I’ve learned a major lesson. I don’t want to be anyone’s doormat, and AC can go find someone else to deal with his assholery.
It’s been 1 month to the day that I dumped (again) and initiated NC on my EUM / AC who wasn’t over his ex (both of the times we were together). What a dummy I was for falling for his crap that “this time he was sure” which led to round 2. Needless to say I caught him texting inappropriately with his ex as recently as 10 days before I ended it. He treated me poorer and poorer until there were hardly even breadcrumbs and the unhappiness I felt in being around him became all consuimng and began to affect me both physically and emotionally.
In this time I’ve experienced some wild mood swings. He contacted me once 6 days after we broke up to wish me a happy birthday but I didn’t respond. It’s so hard because we’re in the same friend group and I know I’m missing out on invites to some activities because they’re probably trying to ensure we’re not at the same events. This is super annoying because it should be a choice whether or not to attend, rather than being excluded from invites.
The initial relief at having it be over is gone and now I’m just lonely and feeling like I’ll never meet anyone. There are so many single women out there – but no one seems to know of any single men! I’m 31 in NYC. I have a great job, do well for myself, am responsible, and am getting an MBA. I don’t know why it’s so hard to meet someone!? Frustrated – but I think I need more time being single before I can truly open my heart up again after such an emotionally abusive relationship. The time just doesn’t seem to be passing fast enough… I’m ready for that one special relationship, but this nagging hurt deters me from online dating. I don’t think it’s fair to go out there with a heavy heart.
StrugglingtoMoveOn,
Sorry you are going through all of this right now, and your situation sounds similar to mine.
The best thing I have done post break-up from my toxic/abusive situation is to NOT DATE. A magical relationship is not going to heal the pain. Love, support from understanding people, and time will heal the pain. You may stumble, but each time you will become a little stronger. Keep the focus on YOU and getting better.
I am not attempting to overstep any boundaries or tell you what to do, just letting you know you WILL get through this and sharing what has worked for me. YOU ARE SPECIAL! PUT YOURSELF FIRST!! HEAL! <3
Update: well here we are 1 month and 1 week after the breakup and initiating NC and he emailed me offering friendship:
I know we haven’t spoken in a while, but I hope all is well by you with your family, job, etc.. I do hate the particular way we ended things, but I didn’t know if it was better to just leave it. For better or worse, I just wanted to tell you that I will always care for you and do not regret a single second of our time together. If you ever need anything, I will always be available for you. I’m sorry it has taken this long to say anything to you…
This is what makes NC so hard. Sure seems like a nice guy from this email, doesn’t he? Forget all the times he made me cry, humiliated me, insulted me, treated me less than, violated my trust, took me for granted, and 4 typed pages of other crap I put up with. But oh, one email is going to make it ok??? I’m such a nice guy – look what a nice email I can type? Look how I’m offering to be there for you (now)? Note that he used “for better or for worse”… Like a wedding vow.
With this email he’s trying to prove that he’s a good guy and put me in the position of being the bad person I’m the bad person by keeping NC, effectively refusing his offer. But he wasn’t acting like my friend when we were dating (although we were for a long time before we started dating). He doesn’t deserve to be called a friend, and it would be another epic waste of time to consider him so. Still I know by nature of our friend group I will have to come to some level of understanding. 🙁
He’s hitting the reset button AND trying to “prove” he’s a good guy by getting you to respond. Don’t take the bait. YOU know how he treated you, so does he. Who gives a flying eff if he’s trying to make you the bad guy…it’s ONLY in his mind that you’re the bad guy. I guarantee your mutual friends know what he is, even if they don’t speak of it or call him out on it.
Strugglingtomoveon, This is awful. Just had to chip in here. Please be assured that you are not alone in this and the feelings that his email must surely trigger in you when you are still so raw (and doing so well with that) are entirely appropriate and understandable. Him sending that email is, IMO, a truly weak and, I know this is strong language, despicable act. I can see that (or at least if I picture myself in your situation) there *may* be a strong urge to respond and tell him all about himself. Whilst it would be ok for someone who has not been hurt by this weak man to tell him exactly what he is up to and how pathetic and selfish this action is, truly the most effective way for you to send him the same message is to not respond. He doesn’t really care, it’s just words. Like the tifrbug above, I don’t want to cross any boundaries here with you, and it’s clear you are doing so well and so aware of this weak man’s pattern, only for reasons related to my own experiences, I see in this man’s email and your descriptions of him, such an insidious form of passive aggressiveness and selfishness. *That’s not yours that’s his*. By not responding in any way you ‘communicate’ this to this weak and insidious man. By remaining silent, the ‘message’ hidden in his email which IMO you have so astutely interpreted, simply bounces off your boundary and self respect straight back to him. Stay silent and he will get THAT message. It’s not yours, it’s his. Stay strong, all the best.
Struggling, I don’t think he seems like a nice guy from his email. It’s all about him. Note how almost every sentence begins with “I”.
“I do not regret a single second of our time together”. That’s not the point – he made you unhappy and I’m sure *you do* regret (or feel sad about) several seconds/ minutes/ hours/ days of your time together.
Please don’t feel like you’re the bad guy by keeping NC. You’re not. You are doing what is best for you. I hope your mutual friends understand that.
Keep strong.
struggling
It’s crumbs.
I’ve had reiterations of that email from various exes.
I think we have all received variations of this email at some point after a break-up with narc and/or AC ex’es. It’s all crumbs and him wanting to make himself better and get validation from you that what he did was ok. I would not give him that satisfaction, because if you do, you will making him feel better, and making YOU feel BAD. Do what will make YOU feel good and happy. Do not feel compelled to respond. Not all emails need/deserve a reply. Silence can send out a better response than anything you might be able to write. Really. I received an email from the ex 8 days ago too, although mine had HIGH levels passive aggressiveness / rubbing it in, and OBVIOUSLY trying to make me feel bad rather than even trying to pretend to care about me (though he said he “cared about me and worried about me the whole time we were together.” Oh yeah, because people who care about you treat you like sh*t and yell at you in public like you are their 10 year old kid. IGNORE, FLUSH. NEXT!
Oh Natalie yes I did this and it is what hurt the most actually. Long after I accepted the relationshit was over, I kept accepting his offers of friendship. It was agony. It was the emotional equivalent of being set on fire.
I wanted the validation. I wanted to be part of his life in any shape or form. It’s just nauseating to me now.
Natalie, your ‘holiday’ sounds exhausting! (Except the having a lie-in). Listen to the pain in your finger 😉
Re not remaining friends, I agree whole heartedly. To be honest, when a relationship ends I’m in so much ‘abandonment’ pain that I go into a protective cocoon and remove myself from that source of pain as much as possible. Friendship is simply not an option because of the risk of further rejection and abandonment. This stems from a very sad place, a very deep wound, so I can’t claim it as a strength.
I have a male friend who goes out of his way to stay friends with his exes, is proud that he is friends with them (once rubbed it in my face). I worked out why. It’s because when a relationship is ending, he always – without exception in our 23 years of friendship – has the next one lined up before he ends the relationship. He behaves like an assclown, though has never acknowledged this, and I’m sure he wants/ needs to stay friends to assuage his guilt and not feel like the bad guy. The last time he did this, I was furious with him because I was so fond of the boyfriend he’d left, and because of his dishonesty. We fell out and I actually refused to meet his new partner until they’d been together for 3.5 years because I didn’t want to get embroiled in the same pattern yet again: of making friends with his BF, watching him cheat and pretend he hadn’t, etc etc. I’m not entirely sure why his exes have always been OK of remaining friends with him …. don’t get it.
Anyway Natalie, relax and enjoy your holiday!
I think this is on topic as you mentioned lingerie. Have you tried
It’s a social enterprise employing refugee women.
Grace…I clicked the link…and I LOVE THIS COMPANY!!!! Thank you for sharing. Wish there were more companies with this kind of outlook and commitment to creating good lives for others, not just enriching their coffers.
The only time I ever saw the “Let’s be friends” thing work was with a friend who, with her soon-to-be-ex MUTUALLY agreed that they were better friends than lovers. The ones who break up with you, generally in shitty way, then want to be ‘friends’ are almost always trying to either convince themselves that they didn’t treat you badly, or trying to keep you on a tether so they can use you when they need you, or adding to their harem. The first time I encountered a guy who claimed, “I’m friends with ALL my exes” I wondered how the exes felt about this. I was dating the guy at the time, and I felt it was odd that he would spend time with exes, but he convinced me that this was the modern way to do things, what adults do. Well, he didn’t convince me, but basically, without saying the actual words, told me that this is how it was going to be. In his case it was the situation of trying to make himself feel better that he treated all these other women like crap, because after breaking up with me, then trying to play the friend card, me buying it (but of course, I did it because I thought if I were a ‘good girl’ and played along he would come back…little did I know he had been with another woman the ENTIRE time I was with him, but was totally fast forwarding and future faking me), ultimately getting disgusted and calling off contact.
I would say to anyone contemplating the ‘friend’ route, think to yourself: would your real friends treat you like this, are you comfortable with the idea of your now ex dating and sleeping with other women, is your real motivation to stay friends the fact that you truly like this person or are you trying to keep tabs on him or her or trying to stay a presence in his or her life hoping that they will see how great you are and they will come back to you.
Nat is sooo right; when you find yourself at “friend” status, you have indeed been downgraded and yep, folks need to experience the consequences of their actions. In a small town, its just peachy to be constantly running into an exes current flame or circle of buddies, having to drive by their house on your way to work, etc. Lucky for me I guess that the remaining older men here are undatable. My new mandate that Noquay avoid dating/meeting any man within a huge radius of here makes complete NC possible when things do not work out.
Thanks for all of your advice and these blog posts. I know a lot of these are aimed towards women, but actually I’ve been finding that they are universal about relationships and respecting ourselves as people in general. It is good to see that it goes both ways, which means there are people who are deserving of each other after all when you think about it.
I’ve recently been in a 6 month relationship which went LDR and throughout the entire thing I’ve felt a really huge lack of consideration and lack of common-courtesy. I kept shrugging it off as I have tend to have a really childish view of relationships and some fantasy thing(although to be fair, I do try to work hard on my relationships and put in the effort, respect and consideration). She is currently wanting to be friends while she goes to find a new man in her country even though she’ll be coming back to my country within a year and wants to stay friends. Its really hard but I’m trying to ignore her until I can let go of this as she ended things without the consideration of a phone call; I have tried before to go NC but I am always accused of being a terrible person for needing space. Anyway, I am sorry for the long rant but your writings really put things in perspective. Even though there are plenty of fish in the sea(and even at times floating around my boat), it tends to be a bit difficult to see without rose colored glasses and realize that it is not loyalty but a lack of valuing yourself by refusing to move on.
Thanks so much for writing this! Am glad to have stumbled upon this blog. 🙂
Sincerely,
Some Fish in the Sea
“it tends to be a bit difficult to see without rose colored glasses and realize that it is not loyalty but a lack of valuing yourself by refusing to move on.”
Sol86, that’s a really good observation and clearly expressed. Thank you. When I contacted my ex (months ago now) after about 4-5 weeks of NC I told myself it was out of concern for him (during our break up he claimed depression and other difficult circumstances for bowing out)and to see how he was, a form of ‘loyalty’ I guess. But yes, that contact and the sporadic trail of interactions it set off had little to do on my side with concern for him. Exactly as you write it was all about me refusing to move on because I didn’t value myself enough to stop trying to get validation from someone who had nothing to give me anymore. I am still trying to come to terms with the regret. The good that is coming out of th experience is that I have finally begun to address my self esteem issues properly. All the best to you.
Sol,
Are you NC?
This woman sounds very selfish and disrespectful- friends do not treat one another this way.
She either wants to keep you in her life to appease her guilt, or for some form of attention. Which ever it is, it is not for your benefit. She is not your friend, and you need to be honest as to why you stay in contact.
“…it tends to be a bit difficult to see without rose colored glasses and realize that it is not loyalty but *a lack of valuing yourself by refusing to move on*.”
“She is not your friend, and you need to be honest as to why you stay in contact”.
Yes, honesty is essential to moving on. I think Sol38 is making an admirable effort in this respect when he notes:
““it tends to be a bit difficult to see without rose colored glasses and realize that it is not loyalty but a lack of valuing yourself by refusing to move on.”
In the early bust up throes, especially with what appears to be an aggressive ex who is pulling the guilt card and calling you ‘selfish’ for wanting space, I think that realising that the reason you’re accepting this so called ‘friendship’is because you don’t value yourself is rather courageous. That’s a difficult thing for many of us to admit I think. It can sometimes feel embarrassing and cut into our sense of self significance. It’s not helped by Western cultural norms that I believe make such an admission more difficult for men in general.
Sol38, well done for taking this vital step towards understanding why you haven’t yet been able to go NC.
Lizz,
Are we really “understanding” the situation if we’re continuing to stay in an unhealthy environment? I’m sorry, but I don’t understand that? I was there, and it was simply a form of denial to the inevitable.
Have a great holiday natalie … thank you for your amazing insightful spot on posts ….
I wrote about this before but I think it might be worth repeating. I am convinced, absolutely convinced that it is not possible to be friends with a romantic partner who dumped you or replaced you because there is a power imbalance there that cannot be overcome. If the breakup was not something you wanted, then the ex had all the power and you had no power. The ex got what he or she wanted (which was not to be with you any longer)and had all the power to make that happen. You did not get what you wanted (for the relationship to continue) and were powerless to stop the ex from doing whatever they did.
So when the ex now wants to be “friends,” if you give in, then once again they are getting the scenario they want (and eases their guilt) vs. you once again not getting what you want. If you accept these crumbs, say goodbye to your self-respect.
The imbalance of this lopsided dynamic is too dysfunctional. At this point there is no friendship. There can’t be. Real friendship is based on a mutual playing field where each party has an equal say in how the friendship is going and equal control in what form it’s going to take. Hanging on to a “friendship” out of hopes that the ex will come back to you, or because it’s “better than nothing” is taking your self esteem and throwing it in the gutter.
Wiser
I think it is possible, but a lot of water has to pass under the bridge. I used to think the way you did, but in truth I had a number of exes who were fine people and there was no mistreatment. The first one ended because I went off to university. We met up recently, over 20 years later and it was fine. He is still very fond of me but it wasn’t weird or creepy. And I was glad that we could hang out.
My most recent ex always treated me well but circumstances railed against us. I used to think love conquered all, but sometimes it doesn’t.
Whether we will be friends remains to be seen. If not, it will be because we still love each other romantically. My self esteem isn’t wrapped up in it. However, the breakup has still been one of the worst experiences I’ve had because I lost so much. My initial optimism over it was merely shock!
I too have had exes who became friends, but again that was because the endings of these relationships were ones that, while sad, were something we both realized was best. Not that we didn’t have regrets and wish things could have been different (and perhaps in a couple of cases he was more relieved at getting out than I was), but these were not breakups that involved crap treatment, humiliation or lying and cheating.
I was speaking more about those cases when the guy breaks up with you (often in a cruel and careless manner) and you can’t believe it, you don’t want it and your heart is completely broken. And then he wants to be “friends”? Not possible.
Wiser…. I agree completely. To be friends there must be mutual respect,trust & loyalty. Fishing in the wrong pond with the ex-AC’s of the world.
Dear Grace, stay strong, you are amazing woman, I wish you all the best xxx
Ooh Nat, that post hit right to the heart. I was NC, hurting but making progress, and then… silly woman that I am, I reached out to him when I found out a member of his family was seriously ill. Yep, I reached out to a man who cheated on me, left me without a backward glance for another woman when I called him out on it and treated me deplorably in a thousand other ways. Anyhooo… OW has at this stage dumped him, and my attempt at supporting him through his family illness only succeeded in me being used as an emotional airbag as he boo hoo’d about how terribly the OW had treated him!!! Leaving me with a serious regret hangover that I initiated contact again. I feel I really let myself down and obviously gave him the message that I really have no value or feelings if he thought it was ok to share some of the stuff he did with me. I really need to channel my inner MS DETERMINED (whose comments inspire me to toughen up and not be so ‘nice’ about everything). Oh well…forgive myself, chalk it up to experience and BACK ON THE NC WAGON.
I still can’t believe that I stuck around after the breakup and what I put up with from the AC. Ugh. Nat, is there an old post about how to forgive ourselves for having put up with so much awful behaviour? I think I’m still angry at myself for what I’ve put up with not just from him, but in various situations in my life. I think one of the biggest aspects of the regret is that he didn’t have to suffer–I wish that I’d walked away right away and rather than providing him with some kind of buffer…letting him feel like he still had me there for whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted it….all the while I got nothing. (Actually I said the part about him having it all and me getting nothing a a couple of months later….it gave him pause for a moment, not out of concern, but probably because he thought he had been caught out and the free ride would end).
The AC blamed me for the breakup and then strung me along. I stayed because I “thought we had something”, “had never fallen for someone like that before”, “thought he could be the one”. I thought if I fixed what he blamed as the issue that we would get back together. So embarrassing in hindsight. I think he treated me a lot worse after the breakup, but it could be that it just felt a lot worse to be treated as some kind of slave when I wasn’t getting anything out of it. I’m still baffled when I think of the shit this guy pulled….I really can’t fathom how a human being can be so lacking in empathy, such a selfish user. That thought then turns into–yet I’m the one who wanted to be with him!
One of the things I remembered today: this charming man actually called to me from the bathroom (at my place, where he left the door open as he always insisted on doing) for me to come and give him a massage while he sat on the toilet. (I refused).
A,
OMG, your ex sounds just like my narc AC ex. You remind me so much of myself and the reasons I stuck around. I am so angry at myself and embarrassed. His ultimate insult to me was to throw away the “friendship” after we had agreed to be “friends” when he broke up with me. Talk about the ultimate insult/slap in the face.But I’ve got no one to blame but myself. I enabled his assclownery in this instance, and while we were together, I chose to stick around despite his assclownery. I am more angry at myself than at him. Maybe one day I will learn to forgive myself for having had no self-respect. Rest assured, though, from now on, I will draw THICK boundaries from the very beginning. Maybe I have become hypersensitive and that’s not a good thing either, but better that than a doormat.
ditto…
” I’m still baffled when I think of the shit this guy pulled….I really can’t fathom how a human being can be so lacking in empathy, such a selfish user. That thought then turns into–yet I’m the one who wanted to be with him! ”
EXACTLY. Me too. I still have a hard time grasping it. I replay all the things he did, in my head. All the shit he pulled on me, and I still can’t understand it. And I was the one dying to stay with him, begging him to take me back after several break-ups initiated by him (and several more blackmail attempts through break-up emails). And I was the one to ask for friendship after he broke up with me for the FOURTH time (probably in order to go off and fuck his prostitute gf or some other woman he’d met in one of the many countries he works in, without having to answer any questions about his whereabouts, etc.). Of course, he knew that he wouldn’t be able to go to Thailand again while we were in a relationship. The solution? Break up with me and tell me he’s going to Thailand in November (on a sex tourism trip , to fuck his prostitute gf — she really is a prostitute). Anyway, it just makes me angry that I wanted the friendship, asked for it, and he accepted at first, only for him to completely wipe out any means of communication between us (delete me off facebook, skype, etc.) 2 weeks later. I am so mad at myself for having stooped so low for this lowlife.
Lara,
I am nauseated by your description of your ex. But I am glad that you are no longer feeding yourself illusions about “this lowlife”, as you rightly call him.
Unfortunately, there is nothing that can be done to right the wrongs or to stop self-serving folk like him from doing what they want. You cannot change him. You can only protect and heal yourself by facing the facts and moving on.
I empathize with you when you say: “I am so mad at myself for having stooped so low for this lowlife”. It is difficult not to berate oneself for associating with such messed-up people. Learning your lessons is going to help you heal and to move foward. From my own experience, I can say that focusing on a new goal and looking ahead is helpful. Do not let your recent past steal your future.
Three months ago, I was blindsided and dumped by my girlfriend over email after I showed her consistent support and affection. Given that I was dating an overachieving lawyer, I should have known better than to trust her as much as I did.
Mea Culpa: I mistook a shark for a sheep. Initially, I denied that I actually invested my time and resources into someone as heartless as her. I also overestimated my own capacity to protect myself from disappointment and deceit.
Even though I tolerated her EU behaviour only for a couple of weeks, I am angry at myself for giving her much more than she deserved. I was blinded by her looks, words, and accomplishments.
I think it is good to be aware of our own trigger points – things that make us drop our guard and give too many chances to shady people.
Once again, do not berate yourself. Instead, accept that you are powerless when it comes to controlling a jerk, but you are not powerless when it comes to controlling yourself.
I wish you well.
SPEAK of the DEVIL. My ex JUST NOW emailed me. OMG. Sheesh. I thought I was done with this mindf*ckery. He decided to send off the email on the first month mark since our break-up, I guess. God. I should not have read that email. I should’ve hit delete the second I got it.
As usual, he is just fishing for attention. Justifying his shitty behavior, why he removed me from facebook, etc. — of course, no apology. And he kept talking about himself and where in the world he is right now and what he’s planning on doing. He even said that he’s going to Thailand in September, and that he’s going to do a threesome there. Talk about a blatant attempt at mindf***king me. Silence is all he will get from me. I am so sick and disgusted by that email. It’s made me SO ANGRY too. I feel like he’s doing it to make me feel bad — a sick attempt at getting attention from me and getting his revenge for me not having chased after him and given him that ego stroke. What a SICK, LOUSY EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING.
Lara,
I don’t get how letting you know he’s going to do a 3some in Thailand is a mindfuck! (Don’t get me started on the racism of going to another country to set up an industry of cheap tourist sex with women that one can tell oneself are ‘a different culture’ …) If anything, it should give you crystal clarity: this guy is a douche.
Yes, it’s sick what some dudes try to make us be and do for their pleasure. You may go through a period of anger at yourself for ever wanting to have pleased him. But let it come, and then let it go, because you are well shot of this dickwad.
Oh, mentioning Thailand at all, let alone a threesome, is a mindf*ck because I found out he had cheated on me with a prostitute in Thailand (naked pictures of her, texts on his phone), and confronted him about it. He also kept pressuring me to do a threesome from almost the very beginning of our ‘relationship’. So I think he was rubbing in the fact that he was going to have sex with prostitutes in Thailand, in an “I can do whatever I want and there’s nothing you can do about it” sort of way. As if it’s any of my business who he sleeps with at this point. I should care why? What an immature person!
Oh, and if he thinks that email could make you feel bad; he doesn’t know you, or doesn’t know you anymore …
Hint to NML: I remember people LOVING the I am not that woman anymore! post …
Oh, yeah, I know. That email was designed to make me feel shitty, I can tell. He took his time writing it. I think he may even have written it in Word, and copy-pasted it into his email, because the lines are not properly adjusted, which happens often when something is copy-pasted. Talk about pathetic. All I felt reading that email was disgust. I was shaking my head while reading it, but not because I felt bad — I just felt disgusted by him and sorry for him. He is a miserable, lonely, pathetic person whose only achievement in life is “being able to convince” prostitutes in Thailand to sleep with him. Which doesn’t take much more than a few dollars. He really thinks it’s an achievement, thinks of one of them as his mistress/gf, because she gave him the GFE (girl-friend experience) for a few more dollars… He doesn’t even grasp how disgusting and racist the whole sex tourism industry is. He also wants to be a pimp in Thailand, and open a bar there (a brothel)…
Hey Lara, just in case you didn’t see it, I left a comment/reply for you a couple of days ago on the “When You’re Afraid of…” post, down nearer the bottom somewhere because where we were exchanging comments further up thread it was getting too skinny!
I am so sorry to hear that he has emailed you. He is truly a sick person by anyone’s standard. I’d suggest you consider blocking him sometime soon, mainly because as you’ve said yourself this narcissist has left you traumatised on many levels (and that is not to say that you are not handling it admirably as IMO you most certainly are) and reading that kind of shite might have the effect of sort of re-traumatising you. Come to think of it, perhaps he knows that on some level,even imagining you as disgusted by him would fulfill his need for control in a perverse way and this ‘man’ is a perverse prick no question.
Hi Lizzp! I did not see your post, but I will look for it!! It got too cluttered in there, so I stopped checking after a while!
I really don’t care about him at all at this point and I don’t think he has any power over me. I’d be just as disgusted by this whole thing if I had been a neutral observer of this situation, I think. Maybe I haven’t gotten to the point of wanting to block him yet, for one reason or another, though. I think I am just looking for validation and an ego stroke, and the fact that he emailed me did serve as something of an ego stroke, to be honest, even though it was a shitty email. Maybe it has nothing to do with me. The fact that he needs to email me probably says more about him than about what he thinks of me, sure. I am also kinda curious at what will come next from him. I am incredibly fascinated (and disgusted, in addition to being traumatized) by this narcissistic douchebag behavior and I am curious to see where it goes, how far he’s gonna go, and the things he’s gonna do. I keep seeing numerous people here (and elsewhere on the web) who have dealt with these sorts of things, and it just baffles me how different people can behave in the same exact ways… so maybe I am curious because this is happening to me and I can observe it first-hand. Sure, the email contents are a bit traumatizing in that they remind me of all the stuff he pulled on me, and that Thai girl he cheated on me with, etc. Ha. Maybe I really should block him and end this mindf*ckery once and for all. But I definitely am not going to reply, do not feel the urge AT ALL. In fact, if anything, this email eliminated any desire (nonexistent already) to contact him. I do feel sorry for him, but I hope that my people-pleasing instincts won’t kick in and make me reply to him out of pity. That’s the ONLY reason I would EVER reply to this pathetic lousy AC.
The thing is, I have a feeling he wrote this email because he wants to make sure he didn’t behave shitty enough for me not to want to talk to him, ever. Funny how he couldn’t even stop acting shitty even when trying to appear like he was a decent person. So passive aggressive. The reason I say that he’s trying to kinda find his way back in, a little bit, is this:
“Looks like I’m destined a bachelors life for a while. I wasn’t seeing anyone else when we were together and have no plans too for a while yet, I’m going to Thailand in September but not to see that girl in those pictures (that I found on his phone) – just to go and do what I should have done years ago (threesome). I’m back in the UK for a few weeks before my next long tour in Turkey, work hard then play hard.”
Why would he even need to explain to me that he’s not going to meet that girl he cheated on me with??? Or that he wasn’t seeing anyone while we were together? I doubt it’s guilt. I doubt he can have ANY feelings whatsoever. He was like a zombie when we were together and I doubt that has changed. Now he talks to me like it’s any of my business who he sleeps with or who he sees in Thailand? WTF? I don’t care, dude. Go throw your life away, I won’t be shedding a tear if you do. I bet you this is his first attempt at “grooming” me for future FWB/break-up sex/one night stand/etc. type stuff, especially if he gets to be stationed in my city again for work.
Also, he removed me from facebook with no explanation. It was a one-sided decision on his part, that I had to accept, just like his break-up. Now he is explaining to me why he removed me? A month later? Really, dude? You decided already, for the both of us. You played that power/control game again. Now you expect me to listen to your pathetic excuses and somehow “forgive” you?
He also ordered me to “stay in touch”. That was the closing line of his email. Wow. The nerve.
“work hard then play hard” lol I had to laugh at that. So sad, pathetic, and passive aggressive. Enjoy your Russian roulette games with STD, mate!
Lara,
It is dizzying what you are witnessing in relation to this douchebag.
In case you are still wary of your own people-pleasing habits, I will recommend that you don’t make the mistake of feeling pity for him. If anything, feel only contempt.
Of course, I understand it is difficult to control our feelings.
Take care.
Lara,
The guy is a disgusting!!!
Why haven’t you blocked him? BTW, he did you a favor by removing you from FB!
Hi Lara,
I am an Asian gal and been to Thailand.
The problem with prostitution is really because there are men like your ex who patronise it. Out of curiosity, I asked my friend there to show me to prostitution area they call “sala deng” or its red light district and I have never seen a parcel of land area that has all these prostitution going on. I know there are lot of decent means to get money but some of these women are even sold by their own family or drugged by their own bf to get easy money of them or the XX mafias running the prostitution business. However, if no men as filthy and lowly as these guys then this business should have died. Unfortunately, all I can remember was that I went passed certain area where all sort of men from wide range of age gaps and various race are in queue in these red light district bars with all these girls in fancy costumes to allure their customers. I could not believe that this business is existing but it does and all sort of sad stories can be derived from these women too.
I have recently dated an Indian man because I was thinking that westerner men are more wild in sex as I have been dating someone prior to this recent ex a man who just blow hot and cold. All the things that Natalie had describe in her posting was all in that list. I was in that time was trying to figure out if the man was just hurt in his past relationship the reason why he did not commit to me. However, I found out that he have this kind of craziness over Asian women as his current gal is another Asian girl too. However, the lucky thing for me is that I have read Natalie’s why men blow hot and cold and I have started to get many points and his actions were all in the check sheet. When I finally confronted him, he told me that it is not me that is the problem and I deserve someone better than him. I realise that all he wanted is for me to sleep with him. heaven knows what could have happen if I gave him sex if I am still left with the assumption that I got something with him.
I lately know that the girl he is with is on tourist visa and heaven knows if the girl is dreaming marriage to come out from “their relationship”. Some men are just incapable of committing into relationship because some girls give them sex. In the western world, the thing that can be wrong with us women is we tend to hang around with them with the thought they will change and yes many give them sex. In Asia where prostitution can be cheap, they get laid with gusto as to how many they want because they can easily afford it too.
The end of this is my lesson from Sophia, I do not have to typecast someone from their race of anything. I cannot even trust my fellow asians when it comes to my heart because my current ex just took off and adapted to their culture of arranged marriage while dumping me.
Lara, my friend (Happy Soul) used to have a boyfriend who broke her heart…They loved and trusted each other so much but after he went to Thailand he came back changed man, he dumped her without explanation. She still has issues about Thai women, but it is not fault of of Thai women if her boyfriend could not keep his trousers!
Well, if he went to Thailand in the first place, I would question the extent to which he loved her. We all know there is only one reason why most men go to Thailand, despite what they claim about their love for visiting temples (as my ex claimed). Unless of course he was sent there for work. At any rate, in most cases, yes, it is the man’s fault, not the Thai woman’s. She probably doesn’t know another woman is in the picture in the first place. Besides, in most cases, the women are prostitutes who are paid for their services, so maybe even if they knew the man had a wife/gf, they would still do what they did, because they consider that it’s a business transaction and it’s not up to them to judge/moralize about it. But in many cases, these women are persistent and have a way of charming men and they keep chasing after them. Sure, it’s the man’s fault if he’s susceptible to these efforts, but I would also blame (partly) a woman who wouldn’t let go even when she is actively ignored by the man. At any rate, I have issues with these women because most of them are not even doing this against their will, but because they are lazy and don’t want to have regular jobs (there are plenty of jobs for these women in Thailand), because it’s harder and more boring work, and possibly less well-paid. Many of course are forced into it, but those are mostly not Thai women, but smuggled/trafficked migrants from Laos, Vietnam, etc.
Anyway, I really don’t understand why- and find it pathetic and disgusting when — anyone would “come back a changed man.” It is not even particularly difficult to get a woman in the West to do a one night stand / FWB , or a relationship, so I don’t understand when men claim they are a different person now that they’ve slept with some prostitute who gave them the “Girlfriend experience”. In the case of my ex, he claimed he went to Thailand on the recommendation of a friend, after he was dumped (so he claims, maybe he dumped her? I don’t believe most of his stories) by his ex-gf (whom he kept bitching about and defaming in front of me — god knows what he’s saying about me to his co-workers, I am sure quite a lot of false and nasty stuff). Maybe in most cases, the people who went there in the first place really needed to believe they were going to have the experience of a lifetime, that they’d be a changed man, etc., and they created this illusion in their head about it. Maybe they had issues in the first place, that made them go to Thailand for sex tourism in the first place. I really find it hard to believe that a man who is “normal” would just out of the blue book a flight to Thailand for sex tourism. Even those who might go to Thailand on a tourist trip, if they do not have issues / are not cheaters to begin with, they would not get tempted and seek out those red light districts in the first place. It’s not like all of Thailand is one big whorehouse, you know? You gotta actively seek that sort of thing in order to find it (ok, maybe the prostitutes do line up in front of all hotels, but so what, if someone is a decent person who has no issues, and loves their partner, they would not get “tempted” and would be able to keep it in their pants). I never, not once, cheated on my ex, despite all the assclownery he pulled on me. UNTIL I found pictures of that woman on his phone and then he started ignoring my texts 2 months later, not being in regular communication with me, etc. I just emotionally exited the relationship even though he hadn’t dumped me back then. I had two one night stands. It was my way of keeping my sanity, to be honest. I was so traumatized and kept crying every day and my self-esteem had dipped so low. I needed that reassurance that I was (sexually) wanted, etc. Especially that my ex went out of his way to make me feel unattractive by making passive aggressive remarks, comparing my body to “sexy” Thai women’s bodies, etc. 🙁
I really think that, at least in the case of men who have no trouble getting women in the West, the reason they think of themselves as “changed” is that they believe they had an eye-opening experience about the way women should be and the way they should treat men. Of course, prostitutes do it for the money, and these people are (relatively) poor, so they’d go to many lengths to keep the “relationship” going, and would probably not nag, etc., as that is not a good way of getting money out of anyone. Plus, it’s not conceived to be a relationship of equals, so she can’t possibly nag. She’s more “submissive” and does everything he wants. That is what this sort of men like. My ex was deeply bitter about women in the West, so he found the perfect thing he was looking for in Thailand. But if he were a normal person with a healthy attitude towards women,he would not have been tempted by, or thought there was anything normal in, the way prostitutes in Thailand behave around/with their male clients…. It’s insane, pathetic, etc. But again, a normal person with a healthy attitude would not find this relationship of unequals between Thai prostitute women and foreign men in any way normal or attractive or healthy…
Lara, I agree with you 100%!!!!!! BUT he COULD resisted Thai’s girl approaches, BUT HE DID NOT!!! Happy Soul is beautiful, she has great body (never had children, you know what I mean?) so she was PERFECT, two degress, good job and her own flat, younger than her AC, WHAT ELSE HE BLOODY NEEDED??????????????????????????
He needs:
* to get his shit together
* to stop stuffing the warnings of his conscience down until he no longer has one
* to grow some self-respect
* to learn to respect others
* to learn to live with integrity
It has NOTHING to do with the caliber of woman he has. This is an inside job, and he’s avoiding it.
Rev, but he had different ideas for his needs, he wanted a little submissive slave and he got her! GOOD luck to all losers with it, not me or my friends want to be with men who are control freaks:)
Hi All,
All I can say is that I have seen both worlds and I have been to Thailand too. I am not Thai but there is something about the hospitality that these people give and even the way their women speak is really great. I cannot question why men not want them if not a prostitute. However, no matter how soft spoken and hospitable a person and she is into the prostitution business it is just a big no no.
What is a typical whore who stays in this brothel? I was told but not too sure but they said that these women should have minimum quota per night to get laid with or perhaps get an old man just to entertain. We can imagine minimum of two guys in an hour, what do you call that? So if any of our men will take a prostitute? Do not even think of taking him back as he will surely bring you heaps of STDs.
Please do not get me wrong, I am speaking of prostitution in general and it is not of the race or country as prostitution exist wherever we are.
I really do not think that there is something wrong with western women or any women of vast races. Sometimes, we just think that the man who choose to love is the good person and as Sophia said, She mistook a shark as a lamb. There is this man I dated who said he do not look for prostitutes but he frequent this dating website z o o s k.com and I know that what he is after lonely women. He was starting with me but I was in doubt of his interest and I did not gave in to him in bed as he wanted to do it quickly. Later, he blew from hot to cold until he finally backed off. I was thinking it was me because of me trying to deprive him of sex. I was so blessed I came across this website and was pointed the signs of a player. I applied the NC.. ola. he never followed and I made a fake profile in that website and he contacted me. He put up a very nice profile which says he is looking for a lifetime relationship with the right woman. I didn’t pay in that website and then he is too smart he left his phone number there with the thought I will contact him. I felt so relieved and so lucky with that experience. I know how lowly that guy was. So in short, it is not because of prostitute or whatever… men loves sex more than most women. Some just wanted so much that they forget to value the woman who loved them purely. So I do not think it has something to do with being compared to Thai ladies who sweet talk these men. They are just lowly to even have contemplated to get to that land and get laid with many young girls. The very moment they bought the ticket with that wild encounter with these prostitute in mind they are doomed.
A – For real? In hindsight (when all the good comebacks materialize in our heads), you might have gone in an flushed the toilet to let him know he’d been FLUSHED FLUSHED FLUSHED!!!
A,
I can relate to much of what you wrote. The self forgiveness part is tough, isn’t it, once you realize how badly you allowed yourself to be treated. I just spent the last two weeks out of country with my sister. She is really good with the whole self forgiveness thing, and helped me to see that I must forgive myself for the mistakes I made, as I was doing the best I could at the time. Se is right, I think. We all make mistakes while trying to make our way in this world, and while trying to find love. I hope you find forgiveness for yourself soon. It really does a lot to help you grow and move forward. Hugs xo
That’s what i tell myself… that I did the best I could with the information I had at the time. I am NC and have no desire to have contact… there’s nothing left to say and no longer need him to validate me. It took me over a year to go fully no contact. From time to time I google stalk bc I invariably discover something that that reinforces my NC decision, shows me again that there’s no way other way… e.g., DWI arrest, new woman bearing her broken heart on pinterest, next nw woman bearing her broken heart… OTOH, when I discover these new tidbits of the REAL him, I kick myself for ever believing in him, for being blind for so long, for trying, hoping, waiting, losing so much…for basically being a fool. Then I just have to remind myself that at the time I could only act on the information I had at the time. He unfolded ever so slowly.
Searching. Stop google stalking him. Why do you still, after a year, need reinforcement that you made the correct decision – NC? Examine that. Good luck and keep strong.
I needed to read this! I made the huge mistake of being “friends” with an ex for ONE WHOLE YEAR!! We’d be off and on, off and on, off and on…He told me he had post traumatic stress disorder from the ordeal (Made me feel worse hearing him say that)…I’ve looked back at our relationship and I see the red flags now and that I should have just run long ago, but my heart…ugh…So, since the off and on pseudo-friendship, I noticed everything would have to be on his time…ugh…This past Monday he told me he was going an hour north to hang out in a city and I asked what for and he said, things in stuff…He was so vague and was just acting strange…He ended up disappearing off the radar all day until late he called me, but I didn’t pick up the phone…Finally, I didn’t pick up the phone…He called a second time that night and again I didn’t answer the phone!!!! The day before this happened he had told me he wasn’t seeing anyone and even if he would, he wouldn’t tell me because he didn’t want to hurt me…What I realized is that he couldn’t be honest with me…I don’t want a boyfriend who can’t be honest with me and neither do I want a friend…But the pain I feel in my heart sometimes is so unbearable…
Good job Wendy. Such a simple but powerful decision, not to pick up. It hurts a lot now, but it sounds like the healing is about to begin.
Thanks Magnolia! 🙂 It’s been tough today, but I’m hanging in there! 🙂
Hi Natalie,
Glad to hear your taking a vacation, sounds like you’re up to some fun stuff. Orange is Black is my favorite new show. Female Queers parading around like they own the joint… pretty fun to watch and talk about.
As for this post, one of my shining moments with the last worst A/C was when I turned down her offer to be friends. I simply told her to fuck off, and that little FU ended up giving me loads of self regard from a situation which really broke my heart. Even though it took me time to get over her, I didn’t give her the idea that what she did (cheat) was ok by accepting her “friendship”. She knows without a doubt that I think she’s rotten, selfish excuse for a woman, and that made me feel F’n fantastic!
Always on time Nat. I moved away due to a job and the guy i was seeing of course didn’t like my decision. I considered staying but got red flags – he was seeing other women so I moved forward. After the move he continued to call and somewhat talk about us. Without a true direction or commitment – I refused to be in limbo so I broke it off and did NC for 8 months! He called two days ago and I caved…. He was full of apologies but then went on to say he been dating but I get the impression things are questionable how well it’s going – why tell me this? Nonetheless – I did tell him I do not keep in contact but he insist when I come home to see him. I cared alot about this man but I can’t take the ambiguity he threw my way before. Healing has been a long process and i want to move forward to better possibilities – I think that sounds like the better plan. Restarting NC – day two! Thanks BR family!!!!
This post speaks directly to me!! In many ways I have been living in fantasy land with my ex, believing that if we “broke up” but were still “friends” then he would (at last) treat me with the appreciation, respect, empathy and engagement I deserved all along in our marriage. Sounds pretty weird but I actually did believe this.
I didn’t realize it at the time but this was selling myself out and still making him my point of reference. I thought I could “forgive” him and all would be well. Why was I so anxious to do this? I was doing all the work!!! He was off the hook!!! He is totally into himself and always has been. I was people pleasing him and busting my own boundaries.
I think I also wanted very much to appear to be the “nice person” to my kids so I wouldn’t be blamed. But who cares. I know that I am a fair minded person with integrity. I think I have put him on some kind of crazy pedestal which is strange because it is I who have the friends and close connections and deeply engaged relationships.
I have been feeling overwhelming anxiety since he screwed me over and betrayed his word last year and I think it is because I actually was betraying my core self. I HAVE a strong and truthful core self and it just wasn’t going to go along with this huge incongruency by still being “friends.” Why would I be a “friend” with somebody who did not appreciate me, who treated me without empathy or understanding, who made me make all the decisions and do all the work and manipulated me when I raised issues. In wanting to be friends I have given him a get out of jail free pass so many times because of my OWN fears. Once I “owned up” to myself that I do not want to be friends and that it isn’t even that important to me then some of my anxiety dropped off. My relationship with him is strategic because of our business and because we are parents to children …but that is different from being friends. I am not all the way yet but am getting there…..
Is the end of a casual relationship really considered a breakup?
After things ended so callously and abruptly with my coworker, there was no way we were going to be friends, because clearly, we weren’t friends to begin with. Once he rekindled his relationship with his ex and they subsequently moved in together, he was done with me, so he “casually” ceased speaking to me and acted as if I never existed. This was a very confusing and devastating time for me, as I’ve conveyed in other posts, but now, three months later, he is doling out communication to me, I guess in the hopes of not looking like the bad guy in the eyes of our colleagues. Clearly, they saw how drastically the dynamic changed in our daily interaction. Although my friends and sister have mentioned that in time he’ll be trying to hook-up with me again, I seriously doubt it, as he seems to be so ecstatic about his new life and drops his SO’s name at every chance, but then, things aren’t always what they seem, huh? In any case, my feelings are still hard, therefore, I don’t wish him well, I don’t wish him anything other than to be out of my life, so the idea of friendship or any kind of ‘ship’ with him is farcical. There is no way I ever want to resume communication or try to become friends with someone who has treated me so terribly.
Sanntay. You were sexualy intimate with him so it wasn’t “casual” for you. That’s all that matters. What he thought or is still thinking is unimportant to you. Continue working on yourself and healing. Hopefully soon you won’t even be writing about him anymore because you won’t be giving him that much space in your head. Wishing you well. I’m on vacation with my bf. Coming to some new realizations after 10 months, which is to be expected. We will see, as time will tell if we stay together. He’s still a great guy but my life will go on whatever happens. Thanks to BR.
To All,
It just breaks my heart to see all of you beautiful women (and the occasional guy) so hurt and tortured by so many creeps. Why are there SO MANY of them?
I have just broken up three weeks ago – was completely blind-sided by his decision to end things – and am doing NC. It is a struggle but what helps me is to look forward ten years, and imagine the future me looking back on the today me, saying, “why did you ever waste your time considering even more hurt with that guy?” With hindsight the future me knows better and wishes I had not hurt myself any longer than I needed to, that it wasn’t worth it in the end, really no loss there.
If I only could have told myself the same 10 years ago, and not lived so recklessly, I would be in a very different place today.
My heart exploded into a thousand pieces, a blood bath all over my chest, but I am determined and know that I can live my life with integrity and real love. With each relationship, I am getting closer, I can feel it.
Beauty
So many indeed! I know this website will naturally attract people searching for answers to these kind of relationships, but the sheer number of men ( it does seem to be largely men….) capable of indescribable cruelty and disrespect towards those they professed to care deeply about staggers me. I am recently single too and the hardest thing is trying to understand how a man who said he wanted to spend the rest of his life with me could break up by email without explanation or a second thought. I can’t understand because I could never in a million years have done it to him, and there is the issue. We are not like them, and never will be. For that we need to be thankful and count our blessings. Your optimism in the face of crap is inspiring to me…I largely feel crap but the pain is gradually lessening.
Good luck x
I never thought my ex bf cheated on me, but when I read all these stories with the same issues, it makes me think he was because of the similarities! Eek! Either way, he’s either cheating or a lot of these guys are learning from the same source?!?! Why so many similarities?!?! It’s scary…Beauty, what a great idea about projecting into the future! Maddi2, my ex bf tried breaking up with me over the phone and I told him he was a coward for breaking up that way. I demanded he break up with me in person, lol! That was probably the only power I had in the whole relationship, lol…
Maddi,
That’s terrible! The man is a coward, as he could not give you the courtesy of a face to face discussion.
I’m so sorry for your pain.
Maddi,
I am glad to hear that your pain is lessening even though you are struggling to understand how someone can act in such a cold manner after professing their love for you.
I was dumped three months ago by my girlfriend over email, so I can empathize with your feelings. I am not sure about you, but I felt deceived and robbed of my power. I had treated this EUW as warmly and generously as possible. To use an analogy, I was like a female Gatsby to this Daisy of mine. I lavished gifts on her, provided her work-related help and encouragement, and treated her to the best things in life, drawing on my hard-earned money. Eventually, although I treated her like my treature, she treated me like trash. I am glad I did not tolerate poor treatment from her or chase after her.
I think for these EU Types, the chase is always more appealing than the catch. They just do not want to commit because deep down they see commitment and companionship as encumbering their freedom and setting them up for hurt. Either way, I am learning not to dwell on her psyche.
You are wondering what made your ex act the way he did. I hope you will not – even for a brief period – start blaming yourself for his poor behaviour. You will never find a satisfying answer to your questions. For this reason, it is best to focus on staying positive, healing, and moving forward.
My ex made two claims in the email: 1) I have not intentionally deceived you, and 2) I stayed silent in person to avoid disappointing you.
Puhleez! Feed the B.S. to someone else! I am not sure how dumping me over email is any less disappointing than ending the relationship in person? In fact, it is worse. It shows no care for my feelings.
If anything, when people dump someone over email, they are only looking out for themselves. They are saving face and gaining time for themselves to move on without having to face the pain they are going to cause to the other person.
Of course, as I learned from her claims, EU people can justify their actions. They can come up with guilt-reducing, forgiveness-seeking disclaimers like “I have not intentionally deceived you and I did not want to disappoint or hurt you”.
They do not admit to themselves or to you that they are not interested in dealing with your feelings or showing you care. You do not matter to them.
If you focus on their actions, it is easier to accept that one made the mistake of dating a careless, self-centered person. From that point onwards, just move on.
Clearly, I have still not healed. Pouring out my feelings and reading stories on this site is helping me make progress.
How could I be so naive and so nice? How come I did not realize I was dealing with a wolf? Must work on fixing myself before I try to help and love anyone else.
Take care of your heart, Maddi. Do not fall for words again, no matter how good they might feel. Often, people do not even know what they want. Or, they can say anything to get what they want. See if they consistently walk their talk.
You dodged a bullet, I think.
Beauty, it breaks my heart too. So many kind people here who are so thoughtful and willing to help other people suffering, and who have experienced such poor behaviour and lack of respect from their significant others.
But then maybe that’s the common denominator and we’re fixers and people pleasers (I hold my hand up as being guilty of this anyway). I just realised how much of a fixer I am, and that the person I should actually focus on fixing is me – that scares me.
Regarding the 10 years hindsight, I agree completely. I also find it helpful to imagine if this was happening to your best friend (to whom you were being totally honest, no holds barred), what would they advise? What would they want for you, for your well being? Then to go even further, what would your ‘inner parent’ say to you (though personally my inner parent either talks shit or says nothing).
But I like your ten years hindsight remark, I’m taking that on board. X
Beauty,
I too am shocked to hear of the tales of poor behaviour and heartbreak that are being shared on this forum.
I wish I could say that it is a blessing in disguise to be born a gay woman. But whilst I have not endured poor treatment at the hands of some careless men, I have had my share of EUW.
Overall, I think all of this points to a decline of values in our culture. Many people are getting away with acting in a cold and manipulative manner towards their partners. It is a culture of impunity – since people cannot be punished for their behaviour, they fear no higher authority taking action against them. In fact, it seems to me that these people do not even think that they are doing anything wrong. They have at best a low-functioning conscience. No matter what they say, deep down they only look out for their own interests.
Ultimately, the optimism you prescribe seems to be the best remedy. Severing ties with such folk is one consequence for their behaviour. It does not stop them from repeating their behaviour on a new prey. But it stops them from hurting us any further.
I cannot speak for others. But the problem I encountered in my last relationship is not being aware of red flags. However, what helped was getting in touch with my own feelings and sticking to my own boundaries. The moment I tried to put limits on what I will or will not tolerate, I was shown a new face of the EUW, who had been pretending to be head over heels for me.
She disappeared for a couple of days after receiving royal treatment at my house from my family members and after sending me umpteenth messages indicating her care and commitment to me. Suddenly, she started texting her friends obsessively in front of me, tried to put me down and pick fights, ignored my emails later on, stopped initiating phone calls, acted lukewarm, refused to discuss anything, blindsided me, and then dumped me over email.
Though she expressed nice things about me in her email and apologies about not revealing her feelings to me in person, I cannot help feeling utterly duped.
Given the amount of care and support I had shown this person, I am shocked that she could throw me away like a used toy. I am sorry to admit that I briefly stalked her online: she had continued on her merry life, going to parties, museums, parks, conferences, reading for recreation, and furthering her legal practice.
I have dated three lawyers now to realize that in this life it is a bad idea for me to pair up with anyone in this line. Though I admire their professional expertise, their emotional intelligence makes me cringe. It is all about power and mind games – all about winning and one-upping the other person, including the person they claim to love and to put on a pedestal. Of course, not all lawyers are jerks, but the ones I dated were liars.
In any case, one needs to move ahead and work on detecting red flags, learning how to confront people, and knowing when to fold. If they dump me, I should not waste time feeling bad about not ending it first. Just need to move on – and take time off to understand things that I could have done to safeguard my interests.
Hi Sophia,
You are very wise and very strong and you also give your heart truly. I hope that you are getting healed as well with your heartaches. Your pain has caused lots of people getting stronger too. Let us take it this way, we are all are heart which have been broken by self centered people who thinks of themselves and never look back what sort of pain they left after promising some love and wooing you at the start. I thank you for sharing your insight. Hopefully, we will find our true love or perhaps if love is not meant to be shared with gender we prefer then may we all be happy and content being alone and get away from all these pains.
Wiser,
Absolutely love your comment! it hit home so much! I am now NC for 2 months with my ex who broke up with me 3 times in the past year. 2 out of 3 times we stayed in touch and then got back together only for him to break up again (because he either wants his ex-wife back or found another woman to hook up with who is more accessible).
I have been missing him terribly and wishing I could talk to him, but I saw his FB account 2 weeks ago and already pics with another woman up there and I was so full of rage I knew we could not be friends b/c I don’t want to hear about the new woman or have him lie.
You are so right about the power imbalance–my whole relationship was that way. The time we saw each other was mostly dictated by his schedule visiting his kids; he did not want to upset his ex by making us ‘public knowledge’, when I moved away he had so many restrictions on when he could visit and tried to control me with anger and emotional distance.
Don’t need any of that back and don’t want to be his doormat ever again!!
A great post to revisit.
I have tried too many times to be friends with an AC.
First time I thought the transition from FWB to just friends would be simple.(he found himself a girlfriend)
Wrong very wrong. He still wanted to continue to have sex with me I cut things off no way.
When he finished his relationship we hooked up again
this time when he ended things there was no one else but he thought I was standing in the way of him finding someone, but it wasn’t a clean break he said he would love to stay friends catch up etc. I was happy with that, until I was doing all the work to maintain the friendship. I would ring and make the arrangements. He never stood me up physically, but he really wasn’t there. I would have a better time sitting at the table alone. Also he was again in a relationship, but failed to tell me.(though this time he didn’t try anything sexual)
The pain though of turning up to someone who clearly didn’t want to be there was enough to leave it alone again.
I struggled for a long time over his words about how we would remain friends and really there was no friendship.
Then somehow ridiculous as it sounds I ended up back in a FWB situation with him. Had he changed? NO Had I lost my mind to think this time it would work? YES
Of course it all came crashing down far more painfully than any other time. I have cut him off permanently.
He in his assclown way wants to be friends and thinks we can get our friendship back on track.
I just re read the Facebook post as well. Though we have never been Facebook friends nor have any mutual friends I know where to spy on him and his movements and sure enough there he is amongst his harem looking like nothing has affected him.
I have been crying for days on end not just over Facebook but all of the huge mess because I was deluded enough to think we were friends in the first place.
I am retiring from Facebook I have to be serious about this. My well being finally come first.
I also realised that I was spending too much time working out what he was especially if he was a narcissist,(who cares) so today I tried something else I typed in doormat syndrome and it exists and led to some helpful web sites.
FinallyOnTheRightPath, Thanks so much for mentioning Doormat Syndrome! My online search tells me that I surely need to work on not thinking and acting like a doormat.
It is so disheartening to realize that all these years I have been unconsciously doing things to sabotage my own peace of mind and happiness. Instead of taking care of myself and sticking to high standards, I have allowed others to manipulate and use me. Oh well, no point crying over past mistakes.
Overcoming people-pleasing habits seems to be a crucial life lesson for a lot of us – as the stories here of so many injured, betrayed souls suggest. Ultimately, I think self-betrayal hurts the most.
One also has to see the difference between a real friendship and a pseudo-friendship. Unless one is clear about what they deserve, they will settle for anything that comes along.
Like you, I have a tendency to put more effort into maintaining relationships that might in fact not be good for me. But I am determined to change this habit of mine: maintaing a give-get ratio is going to be paramount for me. I am also going to make sure that I am not over-giving or ego-stroking someone to (1) make myself feel useful and loveable, and (2) retain their interest in me by doing most of the work in the relationship.
I am not desperate anymore. I would rather be on my own than allow others to use me, fool me, dump me.
I wish you the best in overcoming your Doormat Syndrome. Liberate yourself!
Wiser
Sad but true. When there is a power imbalance, you have to completely cut the other person out of your life and sadly, that often means their friends or mutual friends as well. This is especially true if there was cheating or any other sort of dishonesty involved.
Grace
Good to read that you are still here in BR land. Sad to read you are hurting. My ex husband and I were good friends for a long time but the breakup was not due to falling out of love but rather some very unfair, unjust circumstances. It was hard to get an electronic mass email on his birthday referring to his current SO as “the love of my life” which was how he referred to me in the past. In your situation, I still cannot fathom a man dumping someone he loves because of his family. However, I understand that I am coming from a much different cultural and demographic perspective than he. Hang in there, eh?
Nat! Get back to that break! And leave the splatter 🙂
Logical people do not break up and go, “Hey, we are broken up and everything, but we’ll still hang out.”
What the eff??? No, no, no. Because that’s like kickstarting it into Dating Phase 1 again. It just buys antsy commitment phobia people time. Actually it just wastes both people’s time.
People will fanny about for a lifetime in these shite situations as to avoid the inherent risks (lower than effing around with clowns though) of something legitimate.
People will waste your time if you let them. And not all of them will. Find the ones who won’t and stick with them. As for the others, walk away.
After a series of really disrespectful instances with the ex, I broke up with him. That night I could tell he was lingering to have the “Let’s be friends talk, okay?” I slammed the door in his face and initiated no contact. Over a year later I am finally moving past that man who consistently acted a fool and all his nonsense.
I ended the FWB relationship. She wanted to stay friends and we tried that for about a month but i ended the friendship just a few days ago. She texts me a little bit but i don’t respond.
She loved me and we were exclusive/monogomous, but I was not ready because i’m still healing from divorce from long term marriage. I told her everything and was honest and upfront about the limits of what i can contribute to the relationship but she insisted on “getting as much as she can get”. At first i was her booty call, but in the end she loved me and I was not ready to accept her love (EU) so i ended it.
She is EU as well but doesn’t realize it. She met me days after finding out her long term boyfriend was cheating on her and at first she was using me to get over her boyfriend and i was probably using her to get over exwife. In the end she said she loved me, but I know that in reality she loved the way i made her feel (sexy, feminine, desireable). I told her that it wasn’t me that gives her those feelings, but that she IS that woman and she needs to feel that on her own and not rely on me to get those feelings.
We were both going out and making new friends together, so now i don’t know how it will be if i see her at the next party/event. I don’t feel like going out anymore and feel like i ruined something good.
Roberto, I don’t have time o reply/comment right now, but will do so over the next couple of days. I have a feeling there will be a lot of feedback though. I will say one thing though quickly. The sentence that really concerns me the most in the situation you describe is this:
“I don’t feel like going out anymore and feel like i ruined something good”.
Actions and words not matching there,and whilst of course your ex FWB went into this with her eyes open, Yes from your description you are certainly coming up EU. My view is that both you and her should not be ‘out there’ at all. So, if you were to take my advice, you don’t need to worry about bumping into her at any social events because you’re better off staying in and having a look at how your behaviour might affect both your self and others. More to come.
We were supposed to go out last night, but i stayed home. She drunk texts me from the afterparty about all the fun she had and how the party was realy good and how they all went to the loft afterparty. I did not reply.
These are all the people i introduced her to and she adds them to her facebook (i don’t use facebook)…. so now they are all having a good time and im home alone feeling like crap. She even lining up her next FWB with a couple of the guys i introduced her to.
What should i do? I plan to take a break from the party scene for couple weeks, but eventually Im gonna bump into her (hanging out with all my friends who i just started building up new social life post divorce).
What should you do? Sit alone at home and face your feelings. For more than a few weeks. There are no answers to be found in the party scene.
I’m confused. Roberto, didn’t you end the relationship? Don’t you say that because she loved you and you didn’t want to accept that love, you ended it? You don’t mention it but I’m assuming also that you feel you couldn’t love her (ie give of yourself and have a go at committing to a relationship based on respect, care and love ) because you are hung up on/not over your ex wife. If you want to really know what I think you ‘should’ do, you should make a commitment to looking at yourself and what ails you emotionally and start on sorting yourself for yourself, the side benefit will be that you then won’t place yourself, hopefully, in situations where you hurt yourself and others. Again, I’m not saying much about her behaviour because you can’t change other people, they can only change themselves if they want and choose to.
p.s. once you start actually looking at your own problems and contribution to your current dilemma (though in typical EU fashion you are being rather vague and a little shifty..haha..,.do you realise that?), there’s a chance you will start to want an entirely different sort of friend/social support system to what you have now (I mean really, how post-divorce supportive are the people you describe above if they are hanging out with the girl you pumped and dumped when she said she loved you and even some of them trying to get into her pants you say!). When you’re more in touch with yourself (which won’t happen by the way if you can’t be bothered to look at yourself honestly)you may realise that your current social group were hardly a support and be most happy to flush them all down the dunny/loo.
Also, as for “We were supposed to go out last night, but i stayed home.”. If it is you who is initiating this going out post lets-be-friends-break off-post-FWB break up- both initiated by you-(it’s not clear how it comes about that “we were ‘supposed’ to go out”…if you try to cut the vagueness you’ll find it makes communication, especially digital, a lot more effective, plus it negates the need for annoying, bracketed digressions such as this)maybe take note of what Citrine Dream says above:
“Logical people do not break up and go, “Hey, we are broken up and everything, but we’ll still hang out.”
OK Roberto,
This struck a bit of a raw nerve. I was recently in a brief relationship with a man who is going through divorce after a long marriage. It was never FWB mind you (I don’t do FWB, for reasons I’ll go in to below), and I got hurt.
OK, so you told her limits of what you could contribute to the relationship (good), but you behaved like a couple (exclusive/ monogamous, hanging about together socially, making new friends together). You can’t blame her for falling in love. You don’t even say that she was pressuring for more, just that you weren’t ready to accept her love.
Yes you probably did ruin something good (this is also what the guy I was seeing said to me during breakup), but that I’m glad for her that you did because you two shouldn’t have been together in the first place.
If you feel like this, that you cannot accept love, that you are still getting over your ex wife, and you acknowledge that you used someone, it is my opinion that you shouldn’t be putting yourself out there on the scene. Not even for FWB.
My belief about FWB arrangements is that they don’t work for precisely the reasons yours didn’t work; one party develops stronger feelings that the other (typically the female) and people get hurt. She doesn’t need more hurt, especially if she was just cheated on by a long term BF, and you don’t need hurt, either – yes, I can tell that this situation is hurting you.
You have been honest enough to yourself and to her about what you are capable of, now it’s time to honest about what you think is right and fair behaviour while you get over your marriage. You admit that you were using her to get over your ex-wife. That is not OK! It’s not OK at all, even if you believe she was using you (even if she was).
And shagging around isn’t a short cut to getting over someone. It’s an ego boost, but it doesn’t address the core issues.
You ask what you should do. I think it’s best for you to stay away from each other for a while or for ever, avoid situations where you might bump in to her at a party/ event. Ask her to stop contacting you, and explain that it’s in the best interests of you both to have a clean break. Meanwhile try and heal yourself in your own time, without involving anyone else.
Sorry if all that comes across as a little harsh, but as I say it struck a raw nerve.
Thank you for your thoughtful replies. I do appreciate the feedback as it helps me recover and heal.
The plans to go out were from before I ended the FWB. It was her idea for FWB and she insisted it would not ruin our friendship, but it obviously did and i learned a valuable lesson.
exFWB explained to me that every woman has their “back up” guys they keep in contact with for sex when they break up. 95% of our new friends were people i know from previous parties that i introduce her to. She introduced me to a few of her male friends and lo and behold they are actually exboyfriends or exFWB, and after I cut off the benefits, she told me that a couple of them still want to shag her… yuck – i’m so glad i extracted myself from that situation thanks to BR and the advice from you all.
I married at age 19 so i have zero experience dating and the FWB was my first and last time i do that.
I was married to a chopper who isolated me and destroyed my self esteem. I’ve been NC with exwife and just when i’m feeling down, she starts texting me… ugghh
It’s the usual cycle of texts she sends me every so often to try and get me to respond: first she chops me down by name calling and blaming me for all her problems, then she pumps me up by trying to be nice, and after no reply from me, she threatens legal action against me.
I was in tears and almost responded to her nonsense yesterday, but I maintained NC. When our son turns 18 soon i will block her number and finally cut the chord that binds.
I have so many questions, but i will ask them later in separate posts.
Thank you all for being patient with me being EUM which i’m growing out of. I’m 100% single/celibate and plan to stay that way for as long as it takes to get myself to be EA.
Roberto
I’m glad you explained it more fully.
First thing, your exFWB is talking bullshit when she says that every woman has a “back up” for sex after a break up. That is utter baloney. Let her speak for herself, not all women.
Second thing, I got the impression from your post that the guys waiting in line for her were friends you’d made as a couple, or even that you’d introduced her to. It’s quite a different story if these are men she has a history with.
She’s single now (you dumped her) and yes it’s “yuck” for you to consider her shagging other men, but she IS free and single. Maybe she’s throwing this info in your face as punishment because you dumped her? Who knows?
Your exFWB has her own issues if you ask me, and you clearly have yours. That adds up to a toxic relationship. To go back to your original question in this post, I say again that you should avoid her. Start NC.
I’m glad to hear you are single, because anything else at this point in your life would cause you and others more hurt and confusion.
Regarding your ex, I’m not sure what to say because there are two sides to every story. While the guy I recently dated regards his wife as a bitch, I came to realise he’s a dog. She harangues him and in retrospect I understand why – he’s not very nice! I’m not the best person to comment on your relations with the ex wife ….
Anyway good luck Roberto.
P.s.
A couple of things for you to think about:
Why are you so sure to disbelieve your exFWB when she said she loved you? Why couldn’t you believe her and take it at face value?
Why couldn’t you accept her love?
These are rhetorical questions really because your story is too close to the bone for me at this point (all I can think about is how my exMM was, and relating it to my situation) so I’m bowing out because I’m not impartial, but maybe they are things for you to consider.
Roberto, I’ll echo Mary W’s sentiments, I’m glad you’ve filled in some gaps and shared more fully. I’d like to add here too if I may that unlike Mary W, I allowed my personal dislike of the FWB ‘concept’ and the BEHAVIOUR of people (both men and women) who use it to excuse shadiness towards others, to colour the tone of my responses – I assumed that you were a seasoned practitioner in that area. My assumption was misplaced given what you add above and I apologise. I’d also like to add that although I didn’t say much re your exFWB gf,on the basis of how you present her actions and attitudes above, I think she definitely has a lot of issues around self esteem. She also doesn’t appear to be aware of how her behaviour (the back-up FWB guy etc – yuck yuck effing yuck!)reeks of selfishness and disrespect (towards men and herself). I agree entirely with Mary W. that you need to go NC with this woman. She is an emotional hurricane and contact with her will only impede you. If you haven’t done so already and she is still busting boundaries, to my mind she sounds like someone who needs a firm, non-ambiguous “no”. So you could tell her “I do not want you to continue to contact me. Period”. After this, you are clear to ignore all her future attempts. Sending a clear ‘no’ to her can also be viewed as a commitment you are making to YOU- to set boundaries on yourself.
Your ex wife, from your description, sounds like an aggressive woman who is also busting your boundaries. If you haven’t already done so I would do as above and also clearly tell her “no”. Clearly she is having a very upsetting effect and causing you painful emotional turmoil. I’m not sure what you mean re her threats of legal action etc. I do think, though, that women can and do emotionally abuse men (the female AC) and I can see how the men on the receiving end might have a difficult time finding support for themselves in our culture. I hope you won’t hesitate to post elsewhere where the topic is relevant.
My last post was spelled Espressor…I seem to be making a LOT of spelling mistakes lately.
I also wanted to say hi to Grace and hoping you are doing okay. I miss you!
I think the “being friends” bit is part of our deep rooted female conditioning of being the smoother over and the accommodator and the gender that doesn’t object! This is coupled with the kind of punishment meted out to women who stand their ground in their work OR in their personal lives. This can include, attacking, blaming, threatening, uilting out, shaming etc.
My current “challenge” is to to examine every time I want to people please and stop doing it. Honestly I had NO idea how extensive these “opportunities” were in my work and personal life. Previously I would have described myself as a decision maker and strong but even if, in some ways, I DO make decisions (and obviously with my ex I wasn’t effective) I still feel conflicted or disturbed inside…so really am focusing on these triggers etc. Exhausting!
This is good for me to read and I thank all of you. Have a little different situation, but still struggling. Was in a 13 year relationship with the person that was the love of my life. We connected in our 40’s. He divorced twice. Me, still single. When we met it was magic. He let me know on some occasions that I was not so special (passive-aggressive things–like not showing up when he said he would.) But mostly, it was wonderful–if you saw a movie of our lives, you would say that this was all good. At least I thought it was. After 6 years together and just after a romantic vacation and dinner with our mothers–he disappeared. Just like that. I was devastated and did everything I could to fall on the sword–must be me. I didn’t do the right thing. Poor him, buys a house in the kids school district so his 2 daughters can move in. Did not even TELL ME that he was buying a house. Yet, it must be me!
The daughters go back to mom and now he is interested in me again. We go another 7 years. I am his “honey.” Then, he tells me he we should move in together and move into a house I inherited from my parents. We are good. We work on the house, but I take all the responsibility for the cost and the work. Just when I move into the house, he takes off. No conversation–just like before. He just doesn’t answer the phone one day. Does not call. In the meantime, I am doing things for his Mom–she tells me that he needs to go to counseling. REALLY. But no one in the family tries to intercede.
I tried to reach him for about 4 months. Then went NC. I was so hurt, I could not breathe. I have no family to confide in, so I went to counseling. 2X. After about 10 months, he calls and wants me to do something in behalf of his family. By this time and find this website and realize that I have been a doormat. I continued NC. Long story short, he would call and leave messages at my house, when he knew that I was at work. They were never messages about getting together, just “thanks for continuing to be kind to my mom/daughters.)
He was gone 2.5 years, when one day his daughter called to say that he had a blow out heart attack and died. I went through the guilt trip thing–in my usual fall on the sword mentality. I am still struggling with this–but it helps me to realize why I remained NC. I just could not go through the hurt again. When I talked with the counselor, she said, “I can tell you, this is not the first time he did this, and it will not be the last.” Reality check. Now I have discover Narcissistic Personality Disorder–and there is some sense.
Thank you to all for sharing your stories. It helps us help each other.
My god, and I thought I had heard everything on here.
What an amazingly strong person you must be.
Lowie as I read your story all I could think of was this behavior is an example of classic NPD. So glad you realize this. You had no choice but to go NC. It was the only way to protect yourself. Their crazymaking would put the most sane person in the world over the edge. I admire your courage. Xo
I finally begin to apply NC rules after having a nerve breakdown and anxiety attack. Even have to deal with therapist. Actually my ex was not the only things that i had to deal with but also other aspects in my life was collapse as well (i am trying so hard not to make this as drama, but apparently the fact it is like that) He did screwed me up after all the things I faced last year. And yet still try to contact me and tried to be friends. tried to comfort me when i was down (even had sex, after we broke up!) Not to mention the effort to called when I had my business trip abroad and picked me up in the airport afterwards. The kisses and that. Then it hit me, this will destroy me eventually. Unconsciously I begin to ruin my own life by kept the ‘friendship’ and justified myself that he still care (and perhaps hoping that he will come back). I know there is some case of the exes of friendship. But that happen in a very rare case, in my opinion. Normally if there is a breakup, you need to keep the distance. In my case, I would appreciate if he went missing after dumped with the mega words of’I’m not your man’. It was 3 months ago i finally decided to close the case since the episode of my nerve breakdown was escalated. my ex texted several times asked how was the things. Since I applied the NC rules, the last text he sent was ‘still alive and kicking?’ I don’t think he have a guts to call or even show up. He just want to shag the ego (which i said to him that he have a big ego). I feel a bit better to apply this NC and try to move on, which is to recover and try to find myself again. And working on my therapist. To be honest, I do still think about him a lot and just give up dealing with my feelings. Instead of get angry why I still thinking of him, I just have to accept the fact that I still have feelings for him but to keep in contact with him will just hurt me the most. I know I have to respect and try to be sober. Even the rejection also the highlights in my life, but I don’ know what will happen now. But I will tell you from my experience, the NC rules is working. You will have time to evaluate yourself. I get out from all social media for now (sometimes this media does not help you to recovery) I know if I stay contact with him, I still have the hope and get frustrate eventually. sadly, to realize that I got into a mental zone first. Thank you Natalie for your analysis. I really enjoy your writings.
I am currently 31 days NC with an AC….a MM. To call myself an OW would be a promotion….I am a booty call. I don’t have angst over the situation….but….a confluence of events in my life brought me to this BR site.
I’ve lost substantial body weight in the last 18 months, healthily. Caused me to notice who was supportive/complimentary/positive about my changes and – yep – NO ONE in my small circle of “friends, family, and ACs”. I’ve recently realized I am a perfectly formed co-dependent with NO BOUNDARIES, a narcissistic mother, a family that downplayed me, and friends who love having codependents in their lives. I’ve had BFFs who openly told me they were going to “take my man”. One BFF toasted a 3rd woman as her BFF with champagne that I provided. Ouch.
This site has opened so many emotional doors inside of me. I have a lonely existence. But I’ve always had a strong sense of self, and I know to listen to what men say but PAY ATTENTION to what they DO…so my entanglements with ACs have been limited. I get out before irreparable damage is done. But I have had a steady diet of ACs my whole life….and I’ve done a lot of crying. And if the man I was seeing wasn’t an AC, I now see that I had “one toe” in the relationship…always saw the nice guy as temporary. Basically because the nice guy usually did not turn me on that much.
Which leads me to my question for you posters. Do we stick with ACs and EUMs because they are usually so darn physically attractive? Is it just that simple? My current one is Lebron tall, dark, handsome, college-educated, ivy-league-college athlete, deep-voiced, nice-mannered-from-the-hood man that 80% of women dream about. He is a lousy lover and I think he has never had to be a good one…because we are all just so happy to have his company. He runs the total AC playbook as written here on this site….and I am telling you…….it’s scary how accurate this site is.
All my “nice guys” have barely been taller than me, some shorter, and very average looking – not head turners. I am average looking too and find it interesting that my current AC’s wife is much less attractive than he is capable of pulling. I think he purposely chooses the low-hanging (but financially successful) fruit. I met him at work.
So…all this putting up with an ACs crap – is it really simply about their looks? The fact that we feel “special” because someone “like him” is interested in us? Although….. I have been involved with ACs that I am not even sure I liked….the one I am thinking of in particular was not handsome but he had the “successful buppie” trappings…and I thought he seemed like the kind of guy I was supposed to choose. He was a character-less monster. It ended with me poking my finger in his chest saying “There is nothing in there.”
My sense of self delivered me to no contact with the current AC before finding this site. My plan was to stay away until after Labor Day…but I don’t know what I am hoping will change. I see I am an EUW….I think I’d be happy with affectionate booty calls, but my MM refuses to give affection (his lips have touched me twice in 3 years), which reduced my sexual satisfaction to zero, which is why I started no contact. I see this particular ACs habit is to withhold whatever it is you say you want. I asked him to give me an old dress shirt…I wanted some sort of souvenir when this is over……took him over a year to get it to me. I had to ask for it several times.
Regarding sexual satisfaction – I asked my AC to be more attentive to my body, stating specific things like “I like my neck nibbled”. He refuses to do them and turns away from me. Of course, I’ve complied with all of his sexual requests…which made me think I could ask for some of my own. How foolish. Giving only goes one direction with ACs…..or rather….ACs receive, they do not give. And I realize I am hurting because he shows no desire to learn how to satisfy me. Very concrete evidence that he wants me for what HE can get. Yet I still need to read this site to keep from caving in and contacting him. I have to remember – he will give me the SAME crap sex as before.
I also have a deeply held belief that there isn’t a more enticing relationship out there for me. There probably is a nice guy out there, but it seems I am bored by nice guys. A coworker introduced me to her hubby, and my first thought was – it would be disappointing to be going home to that every night. He was as short as she and had peanut stature, Mr. Magoo size.
I don’t think “nice guys” ever deliver on the eye candy…..just a fact of life. Men are only as loyal/giving/loving as their options, and the more physically/socially/mentally attractive a man is, the less likely he will be loyal, giving or loving, because, for him, women are as available and disposable as the tissues we cry into.
Elgie
Is it really that important what he looks like? He’s married, he’s bad at sex but he looks good? His wife is low hanging fruit? The problem isn’t what these two people look like, it’s a) that you care so much about this man’s wife and b)that you are overvaluing something that doesn’t matter.
I’m not saying date someone repulsive but unless you can set your sights higher than “looks good” you won’t be happy. Even the good looking don’t stay that way forever.
There are gazillions of good looking men who are faithful. They go under the radar because they’re not causing any trouble. They also don’t put out the “predator” vibe which can add a certain gloss to a man if you like that sort of thing (I don’t). My friend’s brother is a premier league footballer who is married and faithful to his childhood sweetheart.
It’s not that you go for good looking men, it’s that you like the excitement,challenge, validation, highs of trying to “win”. You pick those men where you are least likely to win – good looking, married bastuds. You can fight that out indefinitely without ever having to face the challenges of a committed relationship. It is work, it does get boring, you do wonder if there are other options. But you commit to it. That’s why it’s called commitment.
I don’t go for “nice” men either if by nice you mean unattractive and boring with no opinions. Are there attractive men with character, integrity, backbone, humour, patience, kindness and the usual human flaws? Undoubtedly.
As for your friends and their boring husbands, I’m sure they are happier than you are. Or I am for that matter.
Grace,
Nail, meet head.
Grace: Goddess with a hammer!
grace,
I’ve been wondering about you and how you’re doing. It is strange to wonder about a woman I’ve never seen! But I think of you often; just yesterday I wondered to myself if you’re going to your church.
It sounds about right that the full impact of everything you’ve lost should hit you a little later than right afterward. We’re rooting for you and are always happy to see a word put in from our grace!
Hi Natalie,
Thank you so much for writing this article. I need it indeed. My “love” story or horror story was a bit different than most. This is with an Indian man who was not strong enough to fight for me to his family. He opted for their traditional set up of arranged marriage even if he said he cared for me. yeah you are right, it feels like I am trying to validate myself and probably my ego. I just feel bad too because after he finished it he just sounded like he is never hurt and that girl he only met for one week and get engage with her right away is now the most important person. I must be hurt because I do not expect that his family will reject me even if they do not know me as a person. Their only reason why they reject me is that because I am not Indian like them and I do not belong to their caste. I was hurting and think that I should not be treated that way and now since the guy is my workmate I have to live seeing him in the hallways, shared company vehicle and it really sucks. For a week now, I have just gave him blank stare like he do not exist, portion of me is crying because he did not even ask I am sorry when he used unkind words to me as to who the hell I am to tell him to turn away from his parents. I am really hurt and do not know how to manage. I was at first thinking maybe I need to exchange smiles with him at least to free my heart but he didn’t even acted like he care and bothered to say hello. I wish this will be over.. I have this article in my favourite files so I will read it over and over again and do not fall into the snare of seeking some crumbs.
Alyssa
It’s hard to understand if it’s not your culture. Not to excuse the man, but the pressure is intense. Of course, ideally, he would not have gotten invovled with you if he can’t marry you. Alas, emotions can get the better of us. As my vicar said to me “it’s not personal”. it really isn’t. I suppose on the plus side we were special enough for them to at least try but when it came down to it, they couldn’t/wouldn’t choose us.
Hi Grace,
Thanks a lot for your words and for being there even if we do not know each other. I wish you well and hope all things are good with you.
I was thinking just because we are in the western world he will be able to fight for it but he didn’t. His mom won. I feel a bit better now and saw him again at work today and I felt lesser pain.
Alyssa,
I am sorry for the break-up you went through. It was irresponsible of this man to date you if he was not certain of his ability to date someone out of his race, culture, and caste. The unfortunate truth is that sometimes people are only half-hearted about going against norms set by their families and culture. Odd and maddenning as it might sound, sometimes living a lie or following a pattern is less painful for them than changing things around.
I hope you will not start painting all Indians with the same brush. Cultural stereotypes are useful only up to a certain point. Ultimately, you must take the time to understand people as individuals in their specific circumstances.
I am aware of many cosmopolitan-minded Indians who are in inter-racial marriages that were not arranged by their families. Such Indians not only offer security, care, and companionship to their partners, but also romance and passion. Unfortunately, stereotypes such as – “Indians marry only to please their families or to further their financial status” Or “Indians are practical rather than romantic” – are ridiculously reductive if not racist. Stereotypes will not help you heal. They will unnecessarily alienate you from a group that is just as complex and varied as any other.
Though you are hurting right now, I can sense that you are not jumping to these simplistic stereotypes to heal yourself. If anything, try to see this as a learning experience. From what I can tell, the break-up has left you feeling abandoned, rejected, out-of-control, and not good enough. In other words, it has made you doubt your self-worth and face the fact that you cannot control the choices or feelings of others.
No matter what you may be willing to do for this man, you still cannot make him do anything against his will. You can only control yourself. Unless you learn to see things of value in yourself, it will make no difference what anyone tells you.
Try not to give this man more power over you by seeking his attention or approval OR by focusing on why he does not show you more respect after the break-up. Doing so is only going to lend you a false sense of closure and comfort. It will also distract you from learning to appreciate things in yourself.
Peope unfold in time: they often overestimate their capacity to commit to someone. Initially they say one thing, eventually another. The sooner you learn to acknowledge and accept changes in their words and actions, the easier it will be for you to protect yourself and to move on. In your future dealings with this man, try to maintain your reserve and dignity. Do not fall into the pleaser mode, speaking to him in an overly sweet and smiling manner.
Since this man is unwilling or unable to fight for you, there is no need for you to act in a nice manner around him anymore or seek his attention. This is not to say that you should be mean to him – not at all. I know all of this is easier said than done. But adopting a matter-of-fact attitude is going to help you heal.
The more you learn to uncover and accept the truth about people – including their choices and limitations – the less time you will spend feeling confused, rejected, and undervalued.
Consider yourself free to work on yourself and to find a better match for you down the road. Give yourself time to heal. I am sure you will feel much better as time passes, and as your self-confidence grows.
In the past, I have been rejected by women who at first claimed to adore me and benefitted from the emotional, social, and financial resources I brought to our relationship. Sooner or later, they preferred to live a lie by pretending to be straight in order to please their family members and friends. I had to learn to accept this bitter truth.
Each rejection – each disappointment and betrayal – has pushed me to work harder on assessing and accepting people as they are rather than (1) idealizing them, (2) blindly believing everything they say, and (3) trying to change them by falling into chaser or pleaser modes. It has taught me to take better care of myself.
I keep telling myself: investigate before you invest. Plus, when your investment stops reaping you the returns you expected, cut your losses and close the account. Invest elsewhere: yourself, your family, friends, causes, and perhaps a more worthy recipient of your affection.
Take care, Alyssa.
Thanks a lot Sophia.
You have truly covered what is going on with me at the moment.
I have already accepted that he dumped me completely but at times the why’s and what if’s still clicked in. I missed the days when we used to talk and be together and forgetting would have been easier if only I not see him each day at work. I manage to do well but as Natalie also said I should not wait also for him to realise his lost by dumping me and for karma to strike. I am not evil but sometimes I hate to admit it but I really wish he will realise his lost with what he did to me. But I know it might not happen and as anyway any human being is capable of providing the love and affection we are able to offer. Sometimes, I think if all he wanted is to have a woman to meet his manly urges as he now have someone then he has no worries at all and the reason why he just acted so happy and just changed to this girl right away.
I happen to talk to our common friend and all he said is that I must forget him because this time around my ex Indian man is busy preparing for this girl to come from India after their wedding. I never told him how miserable I feel inside and I just told him thank you for letting me know. Maybe that guy think I am such a strong woman to have acted strong and being able to keep up with work like normal. But at the end of the day, my day just feel worse. I am not a hateful person but I cannot describe what I felt inside. It is a mixture of anger and validation why I was dumped like that.
All I am hoping is that hopefully not many women will fall into this situation anymore. As you said, it is not good stereotyping but yes it would have been good if I was so well informed of their culture before I have invested my feelings and I could have not felt this way.
Thank you very much Sophia and I wish we both will find love who will be there for us for the good and bad.
Take care too.
Alyssa
What an eye opener! Sometimes it takes an outside perspective on things like this for the penny to drop. How right you are and how true it is. By “being friends” with an ex you really are just highlighting or advertising how little they think of you and your feelings, and you are allowing it! Well no more! I am about to delete a few names and numbers from my various contacts and Friend lists. Thanks for the bop on the head.
Elgie
Looks and character do not go hand in hand. The lookers do tend to cheat more, let their narc tendencies run wild because they can skate by on their looks, they simply have more options. I have met lots of plain or even unappealing men who have these issues; no one is dating them. Our problem is not that we go after good looking, successful men, it is that we stay with them when they fail to treat us with the respect we deserve. I became involved with the at work AC because he was a good looking, very intelligent, fit man in a region where most of the older men are un/underemployed, in terrible shape, and have serious drug/alcohol issues. When I found that AC was and is a serial cheater who was just using me for attention, I called him on his behavior and have tried to avoid/ignore him ever since. As there aren’t many compatible men for me within a huge radius of here (I am mixed race, highly educated, an environmentalist, organic farmer, and a distance athlete), I either try and recruit from outside the area or be totally alone. No damned one is gonna treat Noquay disrespectfully nor am I going to use someone whom I am not attracted to for attention. This, I think, is how we gotta be.
Alyssa, almost all of my colleagues are Indians. They ALL do the same thing: arranged marriage. They are different species. Romance is not what they normally do, family is like a business to them. Consider yourself lucky and be with someone of your own “caste”. Also, a new job with another company could be very rewarding both career and financially 😉 Heed the message.
One more thing: don’t take me wrong, they are all very nice people. Right now we are getting into conference room to congratulate yet another coworker who just came back from India with a new wife. It’s just a different culture. Perhaps their marriages last longer because they are not after feelings and romance but stability and building wealth. They tell me that some people in India do marry for love, but still most immigrants here in US just go for arrangement: it is simpler and they just have no other way of finding a bride.
Just search youtube for “Marriage proposals INDIA”, you will be laughing so hard. These are compilations of real videos of people from Indian matching sites asking for a bride or groom in India. Hilarious!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV5-Fh5-g0I
I agree with the article 100 percent, having been there and back too many times, finally learned my lesson. However, there is an issue in that so many people judge you badly if they find out you are not on good terms with your exes. Unless there was domestic abuse involved, most people see it as a red flag if you are in no contact after six months or so; they think it makes you look like you are holding a grudge and therefore not either a. over it or b. a forgiving person who sees their own part in the problems. I am not really sure what to say to them. When it’s issues of narcissism and manipulation and total selfishness, people just think it’s you that were wrong to get and stay involved in the first place, and then there might be something shady about you if you can’t at least be cordial with all your exes, unless they did something to be arrested for. It’s most important to do what is needed to save your own sanity but I still don’t know how to explain to many that it’s not really possible to be “friends” with certain exes.
Leslie, that’s part of the burden of being an adult, making your choices and honoring them regardless of what others think – and not needing to explain ANYTHING to them or justify yourself. It’s not easy to do this, but in the end it’s very freeing. It might be helpful for you to look deeply at why you need to get the approval and understanding of others regarding choices you made that you know are good for you. The truth is, you don’t! Don’t throw too many pearls out to people who won’t get it. Those friends who have EARNED the right to your confidence are those who will understand your decisions and support you in them.
” so many people judge you badly if they find out you are not on good terms with your exes.”
Like who?? Friends?? Family?? Future boyfriends?? All my friends kept telling me to dump my narcissistic AC ex ASAP and still tell me that I should continue to maintain NC. Family said the same, though they weren’t aware I gave him 4 chances after the first break-up initiated by him (they didn’t know we had gotten back together but yes, if they had found out, they would’ve been so mad at me and put the blame for his behavior on me, most probably — and not without reason, but would never have blamed me for not being on good friendly terms with him anymore!). As for future boyfriends, I don’t discuss exes with men I am dating, and if after we get into a proper relationship and discuss some of these things, he thinks I am “creepy” or “shady” or “weird” or “generally hold a grudge against people” because I have not lowered myself to a lowlife AC’s level to be “on good terms” with him, then he can p*ss off and find another person to be with, as I don’t want to be with yet another AC. That sort of behavior, to me, indicates assclownery.
I must add, yes, if you keep going on and on about how evil your ex was, people might start to wonder if you are only telling your side of the story. Usually people assume that there are two sides to every story and that in general both sides are to blame for the relationship going downhill. They may be right in most cases but there are exceptional cases and I think the problem is that most people have a hard time imagining that a person can be such a major AC, lack empathy, emotions, and do the things that some of our exes have done. I mean, I am still baffled at some of the bizarre behaviors shown by my ex, so imagine how hard it would be for someone who hasn’t experienced this sort of thing, to believe that this is possible, that such people exist. Anyway, I tend not to talk about my ex and the things he did, other than saying that he was a narcissist and was abusive. I wouldn’t go on and on and on about him and constantly compare new boyfriends to the narc ex. My narc ex kept doing that with me, comparing me to his exes, in a bad way of course — not in a “you’re not like my exes” sort of way, but in a “you’re just like my exes” sort of way. I think it really isn’t a good idea to keep bringing up experiences with the narc / AC ex when you’re with someone, unless you are doing it when breaking up with the new guy, because he demonstrated the same types of behaviors..
Glad you are enjoying your off time and thank you again for being such a blessing! I have battled with the “friendship” aspect with my unavailable, and what have recently discovered emotionally/psychologically abusive, relationship. I just wanted us to be “okay” and to “have peace”.
This last go round, I had cut contact, and he contacted me with nostalgia, but it was mostly centered around him. Within the same text, he mentioned sex. I stood my ground but kept conversing with him – DUH! He kept mentioning sex, said sorry when I called him out on his disrespect, but then continued to repeat the behavior!!!
I continued to converse with him after this – DUH! He ignores me, but then responds in telling me we will NEVER get back together. By the way, I had NEVER mentioned this! He has tried to hint around for sex after this. No contact again.
Even though, I have fallen off the wagon at times, THIS TIME I see the TRUTH. Why would I want to be friends with someone who has NO RESPECT for me AT ALL? Who is ABUSIVE? I need to thank God everyday that I survived that situation and did not marry him. I am thankful for your blog, Nat, and anything that empowers women! Amen!
I was so worried people would judge me – even for ENDING my marriage. The fact is most of them could care less. I have been quite surprised that nobody, not even my adult children, said are you SURE, blah blah or raised a fuss. The only one is my youngest daughter and she is suffering quite a bit…so I am off to see her in a few weeks and hopefully to talk a bit. She tends to clam up so hope we can just hang out and perhaps get into a closer conversation.
Even my brother just kind of yawned and said, well I guess a lot of people are doing that these days. Unless my ex or I actually beat each other up there wouldn’t even be interest in who is nice.
I think I overstressed my own importance here. I did worry a lot about not being seen as nice in terms of him but see this as people pleasing now and I have reduced this quite a bit or at least can NOTE it in myself. Being nice is not a core value of mine but I have struggled with criticism. It does seem to be the highest priority of my ex who can never ever meet or talk to somebody without reassuring himself that they are “nice.” I don’t actually get that.Does anybody else have an ex like that?
Right now I am arranging quotes for painting the house for the sale. The first guy came and my ex said “I really like him, he nice.” I said what does that have to do with how he paints the house or the amount he charges. I actually had problems with this guy from the get-go because he told me basically I was wrong in what I was asking even before he saw the house.
I think actually this reflects that my ex still sees people as a little boy -nice, not nice. This is as far as his “judgement” of people ever went. I always did see other eople in more complex ways and my ex always put that down or denied it. When my ex just liked everybody and thought everybody was “nice” but I had different views of the situation or person I often blamed myself for being judgmental. Now I see this as one of my real strengths. I wish I could have had more confidence in using that skill with my ex.
Tinkerbell: I always appreciate your feedback. Yes, you are right, I shouldn’t be wasting brain cells ruminating about that fool. What he does is not my concern and I have come so far in putting it behind me yet I’m still faced with the reminder of him each day. It’s getting easier to ignore him though and it feels good for me to be able to show him that he has no power over my emotions anymore. I just want to evict him from my thoughts once and for all. But I know it will happen, it’s just taking longer than I’d like. Hope you are enjoying your vacation!
When I ask myself why I keep hanging in there with this particular AC, I have wondered is it simply because he has some nice qualities all wrapped up in a spectacularly good-looking package…and I wanted to pose that question here. Are we just caught up in finding and landing Prince Charming?
When I say low-hanging fruit, I am talking about looks ONLY. I don’t know his wife, I saw a picture in his office. Imagine hearing that George Clooney married Rhea Perlman. You’d figure there must be something good between them, but it would give you pause.
My suspicion is that this AC does not pick beautiful women because beautiful women require work and attention. A less attractive woman would treat him better than a beautiful woman…I include myself in that. Like that country song, right? “If you want to be happy the rest of your life, don’t make a pretty woman your wife.”
This AC pursued me for 1 year, and when I finally agreed to lunch with him, right after the waitress took our order, AC said “I am never leaving my wife.” To which I replied “Good.” I remember thinking….so…you’re so potent that I’m gonna want you to leave your home for me…????….don’t think so. I have never had one minute of angst over the fact that he is married. Go home. I’ll see you later. I’m not waiting by a phone, cancelling plans…I’ve said “No” at times when HE was free.
But, Grace, I do think I am trying to “win”. Not win him away from his wife, but “win” his love. I have an insidious form of codependency I think…. for every 1000 rejections from a family/friend, I can point to one episode that showed they cared for me. I’m like those lab rats that keep hitting the lever for the occasional reward. The lab rats who were “sometimes” rewarded worked harder at the lever than those rats that got rewarded every time.
Looking over my past, I see physical appearance has been an Achilles heel. I was the plump coke-bottle glasses acne ridden teenager..I begged to go to a dermatologist but was told “you’ll grow out of it”. My 1 year older slim flawless skinned sister – they found the money to send her to modeling school, to “build her up” because she was not outgoing and a poor student but “she had common sense” whereas I was “just book-smart.”
I remember my Dad telling me to “fix my face”.
I was (and still am) my mother’s “cheerleader”, always praising her looks and outfits, but never getting that back in any way. I have a few memories of being upstaged by my Mother. Even now, when we do thing together, I am on guard over being the butt of her jokes, because, as I develop stronger boundaries, I think I would get medieval on her. Since my weight loss, there has been some discord. When I showed her how baggy an old outfit is, she said “what a shame that such a nice outfit can’t be taken in, you know, because of the lining”. WTF?!? She gives me retroactive insults, like, “Two weeks ago at that affair, I did not like your hair.” WTF?!?
So I am in awe of ACs looks and I do put him on a pedestal. My AC and I have fun visits and we laugh a lot together so I “allowed” him to be bad at sex with me because I got some good things out of it – namely his attention, laughter, and appreciation of my brains. His AC ways are limited to playing with women’s hearts.
One of the things I am now dreading is the day my Mother questions me about my current AC. Feel like she’ll enjoy feeling bad for me now that I have another failed relationship. Even though I have repeatedly told her “I am NO THREAT to his marriage.”
My feelings about marriage and fidelity: I don’t fault people for cheating as long as they make sure that the spouse always comes first in all priorities. Side pieces should remain side pieces and should have NO IMPACT on the spousal relationship. My parents’ marriage was very empty. Very civilized, but very empty for them. They lived just like the lyrics of that Carly Simon song – Dad sitting in the dark in the living room smoking a cigarette, Mom upstairs in the bedroom with her magazines. I did not see a lot of joy/sharing/caring – just a lot of RESPONSIBILITY. My parents divorced about two seconds after I left home. I only hope that they were finding some kind of personal happiness……….somewhere…..because YOLO…..seriously. My MM once said, out of the blue, that I improved his marriage. That’s the only thing he’s ever said to me about his marriage. He does not talk about his wife. And….should I ever marry……and my spouse cheats….please, girlfriends, keep that info to yourself. Don’t get all righteous and feel you must tell me, cuz I don’t want to know. Let me deal with it in my own way. And besides, I believe a spouse knows when a mate is creepin’. You never know what is working for a couple. I believe Maria Shriver was fully aware of Arnold’s ways, and had to act outraged for the public. I am not at all surprised that they’ve reached some type of reconciliation….or at least, haven’t rushed to divorce.
My 3 year married girlfriend thinks her hubby is creepin’. He’s starting to smell himself..you know, new job, nice home… I told her, don’t let your girlfriends talk you out of your marriage. His cheating has nothing to do with YOU and everything to do with HIM. The other woman means NOTHING. The one thing we can’t be for our mates is NEW, and men crave NEW.
Not condoning the behavior of ACs that mess all over everybody. Not condoning ACs at all. But I can deal with infidelity…if it’s done Charles Kuralt style. That fat man had TWO women, and he took care of both, and they apparently did not know of each other until after his death because of provisions he made in his will.
In my mind’s fantasy, I am Katherine Hepburn to my AC’s Spencer Tracy. But the reality is, he’s just an AC with a harem.
A man who cheats on his wife has priorities, and they aren;t his wife….. only himself, himself, and himself. Just because he is a great liar and keeps his wife from finding out does not make it all good, or make her a priority. That is ridiculous. If a wife is aware of his creeping around, I can promise you she is going through silent agony, not just shrugging and accepting that at least she is lucky he comes home to her. She’s in pain. Not to mention the STD side of things, of course his wife has no choice in her exposure not knowing she’s exposed to whoever he is getting his latest sex from. How does that make her a priority to risk her mental and physical health so he can get laid in secret? Men crave new? So do we just roll over and play dead so they can get what they want in life while we suffer in silence and have our self esteem shit all over so they still “come home” after they’ve had some newness. That is like handing over our emotional world to men while we run around trying to please them so we get picked or not left. Are we talking about 100 years ago or today? It seems you are making light of cheating so that you don’t have to face what you’re doing and look at your own issues. You can’t fill the void of low self esteem with someone else’s husband….you just create more voids underneath the external validation.
I’ve been used as a doormat by men most of my life and I am good looking, so go figure. Oh, and I’m smart. What it came down to is my self esteem and unhealthy ideas of love, not my hair color or shape of my nose or ass. I made bad choices because I didn’t know any better. I was low hanging fruit because I was willing to be picked without discrimination. It didn’t matter who was doing the picking as long as I got picked, like that was the ultimate prize. I had my heart broke and my self esteem destroyed going about life that way.
The pain the two women felt upon finding they’d been lied to after Charles Kuralt’s death is of no matter to him now is it? His priority was himself. Their whole life probably turned upside down once they found out, but thats of no consequence? Not to him. If that kind of man is acceptable to you ( and admired it seems) , continue to promote yourself as low hanging fruit, with no expectations or needs. It has less to do with your looks and more to do with your happily accepting crumbs. Are you that happy? I personally require and want more than being used as momentary object of newness for a selfish man or to be left at home while a man goes out and secretly gets his new ‘hole’, but maybe thats because I’m ‘good looking’ and require more work and attention. Oh, no wait…..it’s because I now have respect for myself. Sorry to be ‘bitchy’ but you hit a nerve with your cavalier attitude towards ‘harmless’ cheating. It’s not harmless for the person being cheated on……nor the person being used as a new object. It hurts.
I was ugly as a child and got tormented because my teeth resembled godzilla. I understand having your looks ridiculed. I cried everyday. I got my teeth fixed and my self esteem took years to recover ( I still have to work on this) . I look less like a T Rex now but my relationships still were all effed up. It was my self esteem at the root……not my looks. Until I started giving a shit about myself more than what people thought of me and my worth, I was searching for validation. My worth is not determined by others or by my looks.
Selkie,
Go ‘head, mama.
One more thing. You are a threat to his marriage. If his wife does find out, you think this will have no impact? You are fooling yourself. Saying a spouse should come first in the case of cheating is an oxymoron. So the better a liar he is the better a husband he makes? Thats some serious twisted kool aid.
Some couples run their marriage like a business. They negotiate what behaviors are acceptable/condoned. They have their eyes set to the future and together they want to reach some end goal. It’s not all about living like eternal lovers. Hillary and Bill. Jada and Will.
Maybe in the beginning of the marriage, it was about being eternal lovers. But life happens, we discover things about ourselves and our mates that may change the desire for each other. I am sure the first discovery of betrayal ripped the guts out of the spouse. But we cannot know what agreements were negotiated…painfully negotiated maybe…whether spoken or silent agreements. People want things to be black&white, but life is GREY……..a thousand shades of GREY.
What I am saying is that we don’t know what a couple has decided between them. And a marriage may be intact despite adulterous behavior. The AC will say things about his marriage to the OW that have no basis in reality…depending on the type of AC he is, how much he wants to bag you, how Fatal-Attraction-crazy he fears you are, how much drama HE is seeking…a myriad of variables.
Yes, I agree that low self-esteem is the reason we are the low-hanging fruit.
The BFF who took my boyfriend always said “You teach people how to treat you.” I always argued that “You treat people the way you want to be treated!” Now….decades later, I finally understand her and she was RIGHT. Continually doing things for and with people who do nothing for you teaches them that it is OK to take from you without giving you anything. Years ago my AC said “I feel like I’m cheating you.” I said nothing then, but now, after beginning this work on myself, I understand what that meant and it ain’t pretty. That’s what you say to someone who is giving you WAY MORE than you are giving back in return and you know it. That person is giving you WAY BEYOND what they should, so much so that it makes you uncomfortable.
About males craving “new”…that was another lab rat study. But I did not need a study to know that….since high school I have used the phrase “New Meat Syndrome” to describe men’s behavior when a new woman is introduced to their circle. Fact’o’life.
Yuck
“…since high school I have used the phrase “New Meat Syndrome” to describe men’s behavior when a new woman is introduced to their circle. Fact’o’life.” Again, Yuck, New Meat Syndrome, yep that’s pretty yuck but the most yucky, icky, sicky thing is that someone would chalk that down to a ‘fact of life’. Yuck, time for me to bow out of further comment, my limits and boundaries are too stretched.
Elgie R…
EXACTLY what Selkie just said. That last post of yours sounded A LOT like justification upon justification to make YOUR actions and involvement with a MM OK. It isn’t.
Hope you read, read, read every article and comment on this site. Sounds like you still have your feet firmly planted in fantasy land, not in reality where you need to be. Nat’s articles and insight are invaluable and ARE what will heal you and us.
Right on Selkie. I couldn’t agree more. Once the denial bubble burst and I landed back on earth with a terrible thud, I had one horrific OW hangover.
Elgie R., you found the right place. Natalie and BR are the best. Since you mentioned the Hepburn fantasy, I’d strongly recommend Natalie’s fantasy book. You won’t look at your situation the same after reading her book and this blog. Good luck to you. I’ve been there, done that, and thought that too. It didn’t work for me.
Elgie, R., Precursor: As with Selkie, raw nerved has been hit.
If what you write is the truth of how you feel or how you to choose to view yourself and others then you are an Emotionally Unavailable Women. You seem really detached from your own emotions and living the fantasy. Maybe you say that somewhere up there in your comments, just like you say you are a co-dependent. By the way, just because someone says, or appears to recognise, that they are…I don’t know…a co-dependent, EU, emotionally damaged and so on and so forth doesn’t give them a get out of free jail card to carry on with shady behaviour that affects others in negative ways. After all, serial killers have their reasons for why they became what they are. I haven’t really read anything on here that disturbs me (and there is a lot of horrific behaviour unveiled on these pages)in a similar fashion to your matter of fact assertion to the effect of what does it matter if you participate in a ‘secret affair’ so long as the wife doesn’t find out until after he is dead. WHAT THE FUCK is that? Seriously? So once Mr Sex Crappola kicks the bucket she’s not going to have her whole life turned upside down by discovering that he was pumping you (or whatever it is he does that amounts to the ‘bad sex’ you keep on accepting)for the last X number of years? Christ. The ripples wouldn’t stop with her of course- there are their children, her family and friends. I’m not going to be bothered repeating what Selkie says re the rest of your comment. I agree with her.
I could not believe what I was reading- still shaking head.
I too, believe your cavalier attitude helps you to remove yourself from the responsibility of this mess.
I have have had friends who had been cheated on by their husbands, and it was soul-destroying. They have moved on from the cheating, but will NEVER be able to trust again.
I would rather be alone than settle for this type of situation: so unsatisfying and lonely.
No one here wants to believe that the wife KNOWS about the husbands’ cheating and has reconciled herself to it…for what she believes is the greater good.
ACs feed us lies – “My wife and I don’t sleep together”, “I’m just there for the children”, “I’m not in love with my wife” – all LIES. Our need, our projection of fantasy is the reason we believe.
My AC stayed ’til 4:30 AM once…and I asked “How can you be out at this hour? Are you really married??”. To which he replied that his wife allows him one night a year of being out as long as he wants.
I know it really hurts to know that all we are is EXTRA NOOKY. Not important. Not necessary. Not part of his future.
Re: the comment above: I certainly can imagine that some wives will ‘accept’ hubbies affair and then justify it with the… what was it? the concept of a ‘greater’ good? The ‘greater good’ though, what exactly is that? And greater for who? I’m not sure (to put it mildly as I must ATM)it’s really ok for hubby and OW to exploit such a martyr wife for all she’s worth just because they can. That kinda wasn’t in the contract BETWEEN HUSBAND AND WIFE? I wouldn’t have these questions maybe if wife, hubby and OW sat down and nutted out some new polygymous marriage contract I guess and null and voided the original (putting aside as so far off topic the obvious emotional fall out even when such arrangements are openly practiced AND condoned – just look at all we women rejoicing over our ‘right’ to do FWB, just because you have ‘the right’ doesn’t make it RIGHT(for you/others),right?! See ‘harem’, ‘jealousy’, ‘PAIN’ blah de blah de blah de blah…). But anyway… just hypothetically saying that there is some ‘greater good’ that can come from a wife’accepting” (in this context this seems to be synonomous with ignoring)husband’s affair, surely when they entered a contract of marriage they most likely agreed that wife alone would not be solely responsible for the hypothetical (fantasy based?) greater good? And on a more real and human level don’t the OW and husband need to share some responsibility for the emotional burden that the martyr wife must carry and any fall out from that heavy load on children, family, community? You see the husband is in a contract of marriage with his wife, it’s not just her in contract with him. And this contract has fuck all to do with the OW. When OW begins to speculate on wife and wife’s’ acceptance’ and ‘wife’s feelings and wife’s ‘greater good’ martyring etc etc etfuckingcetra within a marriage contract not her own, she is poking her nose into something that is NONE OF HER BUSINESS.
“I know it really hurts to know that all we are is EXTRA NOOKY. Not important. Not necessary. Not part of his future.”
Then why do you choose to participate? I have to say that you post has been one of the most difficult for me to read, not only do you not give a damn about others, but you don’t give a damn about yourself. You’re beliefs are very convoluted!
I do not believe it is for the “greater good,” I believe it’s due to low self value. Why do you think that women deserve so little? Just because you do not have any expectations, it does not mean that others don’t.
Elgie, you mean nothing to this guy, other than occasional sex. Do you really think that because he’s good looking and having sex with you, it makes you have more value? It doesn’t, he is simply having sex with someone that has nothing to do with appearance, its simply a release for him. Nothing more.
Please seek some counseling.
In my view, Kuralt loved and cared for both women. He didn’t bonk indiscriminately and make false promises. See, I believe a person can love more than one person AT THE SAME TIME.
I’m talking love where they – want to build a life with you, care for you when you are sick, worry about you, want you to be safe and secure, defend you, protect you, cry with you over heartaches, cheer you on during triumphs. Knowing that the person you chose is ON YOUR SIDE in life.
Does my AC do that for me? NO. But he does do that for his wife. She gets the GOOD STUFF. As she should. And apparently she values that good stuff way over dumping him over his D*ck problem. When a man is good in many many ways that you value, you don’t toss him out because he isn’t perfect. Certainly his wife would prefer he not cheat, but for her it is obviously not a deal-breaker because she is getting something she wants – him. Happiness isn’t about things being perfect, it is about being able to see past the imperfections. I think some wives see beyond the imperfections. Jackie Kennedy, anyone?
JFK wrote many a love letter to Jackie…even though he sexing a 19-year-old intern and boffing Marilyn.
I hurt because I can see this current AC has no deep feeling for me and I would find it very easy to love him. I want him to make love to me, not just bonk me. His “good stuff” is only given to his wife. I wanted more of the good stuff, but all I get is perfunctory sex. I know you won’t understand this, but my AC declares himself “very loyal” to his wife, family and friends. And I feel that he is. His heart belongs to his wife and family.
I do wonder why this AC acts as he does…when he has what appears to be the American Dream. Back to JFK…did you read the stories about the intern? JFK had a VERY dark side. Some people are just complicated souls.
My reason for finding this BR site is to adjust myself so that maybe I can find mutual love. Right now, I don’t believe it can happen…so…….?….I’m living the self-fulfilling prophecy.
My thing with AC has always been purely about sex. So I do not relate to a lot of the things concerning false promises and future faking on this site….I was never looking for a future. But this AC is the first man who ever made ME think maybe I would like to be married…..if I knew someone very much like him. His looks are icing on the cake. If you guys will, for a moment, take the focus off sex and fidelity….there are many things that need to be evaluated before you commit to a person.
Some of the questions we should be asking ourselves about the person we fall in love with: Does he know how to listen? How does she react to criticism? How important is his need for control? How kind does she seem? How competitive is he? How impulsive is she? How well does he tolerate being alone? How does she treat people who are providing a service? What kind of driver is he? What makes her angry? How rapidly does his mood change? What is her attitude toward money? How honest is he? How does she react to adversity? What things does he worry about? How optimistic is she? Does he have a problem with alcohol or other substances? Does she learn from experience? Does he hold any unconventional beliefs? What things is he afraid of? Would you buy a used car from this person? What we are looking for are those who display traits we admire (and presumably are trying to develop in ourselves): Kindness, courage, loyalty, tolerance, honesty, humor, intelligence, to name a few.
If a man passes a good 90+% of your version of the above requirements, but is severely flawed in some…it is up to YOU whether those flaws are a deal-breaker. Only YOU can answer if you are better with him or without him. So….some wives make decisions on what the value is of the man who is an AC to us. That is what I meant by the greater good. They take the bitter with the sweet.
I can see my viewpoints are diametrically opposed to you responders. Not trying to hit nerves. I have always been somewhat of a lone ranger in my views about relationships. I am both romantic and pragmatic. This site is extremely insightful, and I am here, just like you, to find my way to more healthy relationships. Maybe that is what AC was meant to do for me…..make me realize I crave something I can’t have with him….and force me out of my comfort zone to go looking for answers.
I gotta say, the vitriol I am experiencing here is making me miss the laughter I share with AC, so take it down a notch ladies. I am not the enemy. I am hurting just like you.
Elgie,
You missed the two most important components of a relationship: trust and respect. Without them, there is no relationship.
One should not settle, or ever assume that a man will cheat, because if you go in with such low expectations, you’ll end up with the creep you’re currently sleeping with – there are many good men, who do not cheat. I mentioned some friends that had been cheated on, well, it nearly destroyed them. They were not satisfied because he came home and gave them other stuff, they wanted husbands they could trust. No relationship can continue in a healthy manner if there is no trust.
Please try to understand why you expect so little for yourself.
You may think it is OK to sleep with married men, but you are hurting others. If the kids find out, it can affect them for a lifetime. Your actions have consequence.
Correction: you are not currently in contact.
One more thing: hear the pain of the other ladies that have been cheated on on this site. It was not enough for them that they were getting 90%, they have been very hurt and betrayed.
Elgie
These high drama relationships ARE more exciting than the humdrum daily life of office, supermarket, household chores, one vacation a year, pension plans, kids. We either stay in a fantasy world or we face adult reality and its attendant responsibilities and, yes, routine and maybe boredom at times.
Much as you may mention Marilyn Monroe, or, say, Dylan Thomas, or Picasso, or even King David in the bible, none of these people enjoyed a happy stable relationship because they couldn’t stop shagging around.
If that’s what you want (you either shag around or seek relationships with people who do), then good luck to you but this is not the place where we’re going to support that. Of course your AC likes it and laughs with you. It works for him.
Ask all those questions of the person you fall in love with if you want. But the first question is:
IS HE/SHE SINGLE?
I had a front row seat watching my father destroy my mother with his cheating. My brother and I were hurt by this too. The ‘good stuff’ we got from him never felt real or safe, but it was just a lead in to the next chain jerk he gave us all. My life as a child was never secure as a direct result of his cheating. I learned survival, not love. Guess I’m not willing to accept the tainted good he had for us. It wasn’t real. It was guilt. A child cannot name it or understand it, but I can assure you, they feel it. The shiny new wagon he brought home after he screwed the girl up the street was material. We knew it was a bribe. I respect you have our own ideas, but I don’t agree with them. I still think you’re kidding yourself that happy marriages are made of women who just accept being lied to. You wanted a man who was cheating on his wife to treat you well? The very values you say are important to you are being broken from the word go. Somehow you are missing that. I wish you luck though.
Elgie,
It is not a dick problem, but a character problem.
I am tired of having no deep connections. I am tired of having sex when what I want to do is make love. I am tired of being with men who treat me as disposable and interchangeable.
Saw this quote on Monday: When you stop chasing the wrong things you give the right things a chance to catch up with you. It was from a weight-loss guide, but it seemed so appropriate to my life.
Also, the other day as I started missing AC, I stayed on this site and saw the post about loneliness and wanting to feel connected. WOW. Exactly my issue.
When I dumped a passive-aggressive, single, EUM 3 years ago, as soon as I hung up the phone, I felt an immediate lift. It still feels good today. But I have not felt any “lift” in going NC with AC. I am white-knuckling it sometimes….he was my only “let-my-hair-down” friend. I have no close friends, and I have been like that for DECADES. I am a little unhappy at work, no close friends there either, and a female coworker with NPD who has a grudge against me and exercises her grudge often, giving me mental grief.
I did tell myself that I would not even think about contacting AC until after Labor Day. There was no “break-up” conversation with AC. I just dropped out. He upped the lazy contact emails for a while…”How are YOU?”, “Thinking of YOU”, “Hope all is well.” After 2 weeks of NC, I phone texted “All is well….taking a break..”. When we were about “due” for a visit, he called my cell and my home – I did not answer. On a website geared to men, I found these definitions from men on what it means when a woman says she is “taking a break” – it means 1) she needs to be away from you as things are not working for her any more 2) she has tired of your ways, sees no future in it, and has finally realized it 3) she mentally left a long time ago. Whatever you did or did not do has permanently damaged the relationship. She has now chosen to physically leave. All those definitions ring true for me.
So, for the first time, I am really making an effort to find new avenues, not fall back into familiar, safe, but unrewarding behaviors. But I am so tired of not feeling connected. Sometimes “fake-connected” seems good by comparison. But I take a deep breath, think about the evidence that shows I mean very little to AC, and then try to divert myself with something creative.
Just feeling a little lonely right now.
Few hours later….perusing this site again…..saw the self-esteem rule “Listen to your gut”. Made me laugh ruefully. My “gut” has had the runs during the whole 3 years with AC. I called him my personal colon cleanse. About 20 minutes before he got here, my colon would evacuate. Every Time. I never figured out what it was trying to tell me.
AMEN! It is a character problem. Cite famous people all you want to support your arguments. But the reality is, YOU DON’T KNOW. It’s all hearsay, innuendo and gossip.
Elgie, I stand by my first impression. You are JUSTIFYING because you either can’t or won’t look at your part in being with a MM and your responsibility for contributing to his family’s hurt.
Elgie, I would like to encourage you to stay connected to BR. It is a great, wonderful, and supportive safe place. I know the craving of something you can’t have. You can have what you are craving…you really can…as soon as you figure out what you are craving! I know you are hurting and in pain. Stick with the hurt and the pain. The laughter with the AC seems nice in the moment. There is, however, a reason you are hurting and in pain. Like you, I can cite every “famous” affair. We do not know the hurt and the pain the people involved in the affair actually experienced. That doesn’t make the news, except when, there is a tragedy. Stay with us.
I have one ex who I’ve been friends with for over 35 years–I’m also friends with his wife. We’ve remembered each other’s birthdays for 3 decades now and when I read his birthday cards, which are so heartfelt, they make me cry (in the best way possible). That he still loves me as a friend–and he was the one who broke it off–has been a rare blessing in my life. I never thought it would be possible TBH, but it was and it just feels good. He also knew my husband and we’ve been guests of he and his wife–it’s all good and I have zero romantic feelings for him, but I sincerely love him as a friend. He is a good & decent man.
Fast forward to the man I thought was the “love of my life” who told me repeatedly “I have loved and adored you for 42 years” and who unceremoniously ended the relationship in an email when I agreed to live with him, something he’d been begging me to do. In that email he spoke about how he felt guilty for how he’d hurt his now deceased wife with our long-ago affair and that he tried to “talk himself into” going further with me, but could not, what we did was wrong, but that he was my friend and always will be. I decided he was still grieving and could not commit to me or anyone (I was wrong…) and that I would be his friend. We’d been there, done that before and after so much history between us, it just seemed right and natural at the time. What I didn’t know is that he was in love with someone else, which he lied to me about and while he and I were emailing as “friends” he was planning to marry her. Just 4 months after we broke up, he married another woman, but did not tell me. I found out on his sister’s Facebook account.
I still cannot figure out why he didn’t tell me. I was moving on, even though I was heartbroken, but having any contact with him just kept hope alive really. I wanted to feel, as Natalie points out, “valued” and that we were both good people. That in spite of the affair, we could be friends. How wrong I was.
Lara,
Every post I’ve read from you is focused on him. I personally et it go the first couple yes bc we all need to get it out. Look back n see how much u have focused on him n his thoughts,motivations, what he says, what he thinks etc. T
hen, once u have seen the magnitude of that do yourself a favor n stop obsessing n overanalyzing him, Thai prostitutes n d like. How about you focus on u… Why u accepted what u did, why I kept going back for more…I know its hard but its still necessary.
Sit quietly for a while. Empty ur mind of him n his arguments, justifications n motivations. Be still. Be honest with yourself, come up with a plan for ur growth, healing n forgiveness… what are u doing with ur time? With ur life? Don’t continue to get an advanced degree in him, while not even bothering to register for the course on you.
Seriously, I’ve heard so much about him, where are u? I’m assuming there’s more to u than him… Or is that the issue? Really… How r u building yourself up?
Well, 2Fearce, I know myself. I was a people-pleaser with zero boundaries and was afraid of being alone if I had clear boundaries because it might make it “hard work” for people, and they might not want to make the effort because I might not be worth it. It’s all in the self-esteem, IMO. I have since learned and decided that if someone thinks I’m not worth a little bit of effort (respect is not too much effort!), the people who do not want to put in the effort are not worth it at all, and I don’t want to crowd my life with people like that. That’s all. It’s not so much obsession with him, as anger at what I accepted from him, and a constant reminder of the things I should have seen as red flags, which helps me reject similar behaviors from other people now. I was treated like an option by him, and recently I removed a friend (just a friend, nothing romantic or sexual) from my life because he did the same sort of thing, putting me on the back burner and having zero respect for my time (cancelled on me last minute, telling me he had other plans with other friends). He totally didn’t expect it of course, because it’s so out of character for me to establish some boundaries. He texted me after he realized this, but I ignored his text. I’ve put him out of my life for good, and have moved on. So yes, reminding myself of the things I put up with from my ex does help me. It’s not obsession. It’s a healthy dose of analysis and deciding on what to put up with and what not to put up with. Also, I needed quite a bit of convincing that he is no good for me, so I keep enumerating his faults in my head, to keep myself from having a relapse and wanting to get him back. I’ve noticed that over time, I tend to play down the things he’s done, and then he pops up into my life again and asks if we can get back together and I say yes. No more of that. Nope. I’ll keep reminding myself of the terrible abusive way he treated me.
Being friends is a way to not commit to the breakup. Just went through this with my EUM of 8 months and have had no desire to contact him but I can’t shake him from contacting me! I have told him time and time again if you can’t offer what I deserve goodbye. I flat out asked this guy if he can truly be my friend and he said no, he takes it to the level of I miss you, can’t stop thinking about you, am miserable etc. but still won’t change. I am contemplating blocking the fools number I cant take much more of this.
Trying the “friends” thing helped me in the most horrific way and I realised that it was just the last downgrade.
He used us being friends to continue behaving as he always had and was then able to have the extra jibe of “we’re just friends so I can do what I want” he became friends with the girls he had slept with behind my back and would relish in telling me about where they had been and how great their company was. It was only when I met someone else that the “friendship” ended and he behaved horrifically reverting to some wronged man who had been waiting to be with me again. He broke off the friendship refusing further contact with me as it “hurt him” too much. I couldn’t believe it and was shocked at first but rather than end the new relationship and go back to being his friend my head suddenly shifted and I said OK. My new relationship ended, It was my doing as I doubt I will ever like someone enough to suffer that kind of crap ever again and the signs got me out of there successfully and quickly. I realised that I will always like myself more and I feel so much better.
I put it down to constantly checking my facebook for your updates rather than checking my emails for him.
You have embedded something in my brain and it has sunk in thank god!!!! I am different, I have met a wonderful guy who brings me Joy and I will never accept anything other than that ever again
Thank you, with all my heart
“He used us being friends to continue behaving as he always had and was then able to have the extra jibe of “we’re just friends so I can do what I want” he became friends with the girls he had slept with behind my back and would relish in telling me about where they had been and how great their company was. It was only when I met someone else that the “friendship” ended and he behaved horrifically reverting to some wronged man who had been waiting to be with me again. He broke off the friendship refusing further contact with me as it “hurt him” too much.”
OMG, this is almost down to the letter what my ex did. He wanted to be friends, then would be passive aggressive, tell me stuff about how great his life was and where he was off to, to enjoy his weekend (even a day after the break-up!). Then, when I posted pictures of myself on Facebook, with the caption “I haven’t felt so good in the past year” (we were together for the past year), he removed me from facebook and skype without explanation, basically cut off all contact. I didn’t try contacting him. A few weeks later, he sent me an email justifying his douchey behaviors during the relationship, rubbing in his “work hard then play hard” (with whores in Thailand) work ethic even more (telling me he’s going to Thailand to have a threesome, etc.), then explaining that he had cut off communications with me because it was “too hard for him.” WTF?
Lara,
Block him unless you like the attention. Sometimes the contact from them is validating that they still think of us, but it’s unhealthy. I waited and weirdly anticipated texts from the abusive guy I ran away from, just so I could feel missed,…..and yes I was still invested in that validation no matter how much I said I wanted him out of my life. You don’t fully mean it until you stop all contact. That’s the bottom line. I lived and did it. The only start to healing for me was blocking any contact. And yes, mine involved whores too. I fixated on that for a long time but now don’t care. I had to let it go to move on. It’s is problem, let it be his.
Selkie,
I see your point. I used to be like that– waiting for him to contact me after break-ups and feeling good about it when he did, because I felt validated. Now? The email he sent pissed me off — the fact that he had the nerve to email me after 1) breaking up with me after months of treating me worse than ever before; 2) removing me from facebook and skype after telling me he wanted to be friends, and making me stoop so low to be friends with him only for him to “dump” me as a friend as well, and play the power game one final time.
That said, I was totally not expecting an email, but when I got it, I read it because I was curious to see whether or not the contents of the email would contain at least a hint of an apology, but no. I have since blocked him on my email (put filters to delete his emails right away – so unless he emails me from a new email address, I won’t be seeing any of his emails). I don’t want to block him on facebook (we are not facebook friends) because I don’t really want him to think he ‘got to me.’ I don’t frankly care whether or not he sees my profile picture on facebook (which is all he would see, as a non-friend, given that my privacy settings are set on maximum privacy). I considered blocking him there too, and maybe I will. Maybe deep down I want him to see that I have moved on and that he can’t get ‘to me’ by firing off some email. If I block him now, it would make him realize that I’ve read the email and it got to my head. That’s what he was trying to do, by rubbing in the stuff about him “working hard then ‘playing’ hard.” He played hard with me too, eh? I was just his plaything. That’s essentially what he’s saying. What a dick. Anyway, I am done with this POS man FOREVER. No way would I even want to be “friends” with him, not even 20 years down the line. No way. I don’t want a POS in my life, which is all that I will ever think of him.
I used to get angry too. I didn’t smile and feel happy over the texts and emails I got but I still allowed him access to my heart by reading them. It sent me into a day ( or days ) of analyzing and obsessing each time. Drama. Whether you feel angry or hopeful, does it matter if the end result is you still think about how to act in case he might know you blocked him or ‘think’ something about you? You are spending a lot of energy on this man. This is about you. Blocking him on all fronts is about giving yourself some peace, not to plot how to act in case he knows he got to you. Who cares if he knows. Disappearing off his radar and shutting the door on him says more anyway. It says ‘I’m done’ in no uncertain terms. He is an ass. Who cares what he thinks if you shut the door. This is about you. It’s hard but do you want to move towards feeling better or stay angry?
Lara,
If one of your GFs betrayed you – slept with your BF – would you block her on FB? I am assuming the answering would be yes. Please be honest with yourself: You are keeping some form of communications open. Why should you care if he sees you’re moving on. Time for NC!
Allison,
I would delete her from my friends list, but I wouldn’t block her, unless she kept messaging me or something (in the past you could prevent people from messaging you if they were not your friends but not anymore). I think people are confusing not blocking on FB with not removing from FB. My ex has been removed from FB. In fact, HE removed ME, even after saying he wanted to be friends.. My only regret is that I wasn’t the one who removed him from FB. Instead, he was the one who did it, which was like adding insult to injury (him not wanting to be friends with ME , rather than ME not wanting to be friends with him!). But I guess in the end the important thing is that we’re no longer ‘friends’ on FB or in real life, and that I am completely NC (though he isn’t).
Actually, the mere FACT that you opened and read his email to you means you ARE NOT NC. NC is just that…No Contact…either made OR received.
I have ZERO contact with this man. I have been NC for a month and 5 days now, and have ZERO intention of being in touch with him in any shape or form. He was the one who got in touch with me. We haven’t been facebook friends, and I have blocked and deleted him from my Skype contacts after he did the same to me. I have marked his phone number as a spam number so that if he texts me on the phone, it will go directly to the spam folder. If he calls me, that’s another story, but will cross that bridge if I get to it. I have a voice mail so I hope he doesn’t keep leaving voice mails if he calls me. I would not pick up any phone calls from him, of course, unless he called from a random number, and even so, I would hang up on him when I realize it’s him. I do not want to have any contact with this man. He makes me sick in the stomach. I have been a doormat for too long. It’s time for me to take back the power and not let him mindf*ck me and control me emotionally. It’s time for me to rebuild my self-esteem. He wanted/wants to pass time with me, and I was willing because I was afraid of being lonely. Not anymore, though. I am enjoying being on my own and I have stopped obsessing about the biological clock ticking, etc. In fact, I don’t even want to be with anyone, and have actively avoided/rejected men who wanted to date me, because I don’t feel the need to at the moment, and I don’t think it’s a good idea, that I am ready, etc. I probably need years of being on my own, and not being f*cked over by anyone else, to fully recover from that horribly abusive relationship.
Lara, saw your reference to biological clock. Take it from an old fuddy duddy, you’re what? 30? Not time to worry yet about the biological clock and also yes, certainly it’s not the RIGHT time emotionally to let the BClock drive you too hard. You already know that anyway. It’s good you’ve put that thought to one to the side for now IMO. After you get through this, even if (all up) it takes a year or two until, figuratively speaking, you pop out the other end of your experience in whole and grounded form (which from my POV seems most likely :-)), there’ll be time enough then.
Smart advice Lizzp. I was just thinking so what if I am healing and growing stronger for a year or two now, in the while scheme of my life, it is just a fraction of the time I have spent chasing after and hurting from ACs and EUMs – Epiphany time! Something needs to change, and I need to be that change, but you can’t force it to happen quickly, it’s a process of learning from the past and applying it.
Lara, I am sure you’ll feel much differently one month NC from now, three months, six months… stick with it.
And biological clock…? Take it from a chick who’s 7 months pregnant with her 1st child and about to turn 42, there’s no rush!
Lara,
I agree with 2Fierce. You keep repeating the same story, over and over.
You can’t change the ex, but you can change you, by focussing on your participation. Please try to move beyond the repeated breaks, the ‘friendship’ and the prostitute in Thailand, focus on understanding why you went back to this unhealthy relationship.
Uh, Allison, who said I haven’t moved beyond this man??? This was the fourth and FINAL break-up, and not because HE said/thinks/wants it to be, but because *I* do not want to be with him anymore, EVER AGAIN. In fact, not only do I not want to be with him anymore, I do not want to be friends with him, EVER. Not even 20 years down the line. Why would anyone want to be friends with someone who was so abusive, almost on par with a rapist? He repeatedly raped me emotionally, and was harmful to my health as well. It WAS domestic abuse, in every sense of the word, even if it didn’t involve beating. At any rate, I have done a lot of thinking and keep doing a lot of thinking about my part in empowering this douchebag and allowing him to treat me like this. Of course, it takes two to tango, and a willing woman/doormat to allow someone to repeatedly treat them like that, trash them in public, etc., for him to be able to do it and think he can get away with doing it… That’s why I am mostly angry with myself, and anger is a good thing, IMO, because it gives me the will power and dedication to never repeat the same mistakes, and to change myself. I am no longer the same person I was back in June. In fact, I stopped being the same person I was back in April, when I found out he had cheated on me. I was more assertive and ultimately, that ended this sh*tty relationship, which is a good thing. I do not regret it, I no longer wonder what I did wrong for the relationship to end, only what I did wrong for this abusive ‘relationship’ to last this long.
Lara, I want to support you here. It’s been what all of a “wet month”(as Nat would say
)since the final break up? Lara, it’s a small amount of time and look how far you are coming, how well you are dealing with what was,and yes all the anger…of course, of course…don’t stop you’re own process, you know what’s right for you.
Nah, sorry Lizz – having followed this whole thing with interest, I disagree.
I think it’s one thing to be angry, to be clear about why you’re angry and to use that anger to inform your future choices and boost you forward. But if they’re all you can think about, talk about and all you want to do is rehash their behaviour over and again then you’re stuck.
Lara – I sympathise with you because I think you had to put up with an awful lot (and there is the shock factor of “Did he really do THAT? Really? Seriously?”), but you’re on a loop. Yes, the guy was a sleachy, insulting, minging, foul, disgusting, shallow emotionally unavailable assclown who didn’t give two hoots about your welfare or building a proper relationship with you – anyone reading your posts would agree with that. And no, it wasn’t fair and you didn’t deserve to be treated like that. But it’s not about him any more, he’s out of the picture, in the box of ‘past mistakes’ and frankly I can think of better things to feast your brain cells on. Like what colour you’re going to paint your nails tonight or the nice dinner that you’re going to cook yourself or the brilliant hobby that you’re planning to take up.
All the righteous indignation in the world is not going to make you feel better about how he treated you. That’s because it wasn’t fair or deserved BUT you need to be asking yourself why you didn’t think that your life and welfare was important enough to avoid getting/staying involved with a sleachy, insulting, minging, foul, disgusting, shallow emotionally unavailable assclown. Feeling insulted and outraged is completely understandable and right but it doesn’t get you anywhere. Planning how you’ll recognise, avoid and say a big fat “NO EFFING WAY” to the next one is a more empowering and productive use of your time.
I just love how people judge whether or not I have moved on or am obsessed with my ex based on a few things I’ve posted here. Really? I spend the rest of my 23 hours not thinking or talking about my ex. How is that obsessed? Also, naturally, we are all here sharing stories about our douchebag ex’es, and how we put up with their shitty behavior, so naturally, we tend to talk more about than than we normally would’ve if the posts were not about assclownery, etc. I will not beat myself up over the way I acted with my ex, if that is what you expected to read, rather than posts about what an AC my ex was. I do not want to beat myself up over this. I try hard to stay positive and learn the right lessons from this bad experience, and that involves dissecting/analyzing both his bad behaviors, so that I can know what is appropriate behavior and what is not — because I was constantly gaslighted and made to believe *I* was the problem, that *I* was needy, etc.) — and what was an appropriate response on my part and what was not. Sticking my head in the sand and ignoring his assclownery hoping that it will go away or that I will forget all about it, does not seem like a smart choice or a solution, to me.
I’m with Yoghurt 110% here, Lara. And don’t mistake our encouragement to move on as criticism of you in any way. We just know where you are and how you are (understandably) disgusted by this cretin. But there does come a time where you have to get on with getting on. I mean, shit, reading about this douche has me feeling sorry for Thai prostitutes. Don’t waste any more headspace trying to figure out why he did the things he did and what it means about you. But you won’t find an answer. Trust me, his well isn’t that deep. Move along.
With love,
Revs
Revolution said it better and more nicely than me, and in fewer words! Ta Rev 🙂 I want to be able to write like you.
Lara – Don’t feel judged, you’re not being. It’s just that as everyone here has been where you are and knows that the anger/horror/disgust can turn into a great big sinkhole that makes you feel rubbish for as long as you’re in it.
It isn’t about forgetting it, it’s about accepting it and wrapping it up into a tidier package so that while you’re sorting out what happened, you don’t have to remember and recount every detail every time you think of it. Reliving all the nasty and upsetting details isn’t good for you – it must be like watching a really awful film on a loop. At some stage you’ve got to say “that’s a horrible film, I’m going to throw it in the bin and work out how I can avoid skanky films like that in the future”.
Rewatching the film over and over means that you aren’t getting anywhere, all you’re doing is still watching the film, even if you aren’t acting in it any more.
Natalie has a great post somewhere (I’ll go and dig it out in a sec if I can) about reducing your experience to a sentence. I found it really useful.
I can’t find it, but I LOVE this one – pulled me out the same headspace:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/moving-on-from-disappointment-are-you-focused-on-the-person-or-on-the-bigger-picture-of-your-life/
Lara,
You have ended things, but clearly have not moved on.
Please look at your posts. They are all about him and his actions, not about you. When one moves on, they will block all forms of communication – including FB – and stop obsessing. We have all been in your shoes. Let’s look at you, not a repeat of all his shady actions.
So glad you are out of this mess.
This takes time. I know how embarrassed I was when I recognized my complicity. UGHHHH!
This was an embarrassing period, BUT I am grateful it happened! I learned sooooo much about myself through this experience, and it took the creep to bring me their: the proverbial bottom. After the anger passes, you will begin to see this as a positive lesson, as it impact all areas of your life.
On to positive change!!!!!! 🙂
Uh, Allison, yes I have moved on from him, if moving on means that I do not want to ever see him, hear from him, let alone get back together with him. I do not contact him at all, nor is he on my FB, so you are wrong. I have blocked all possible avenues of communication short of changing my phone number (which can be a logistical nightmare and could cost me hundreds of dollars since I am on a long-term contract that I’d have to break if I want to change my number). At any rate, I have talked about myself and the lessons I have learned from my experience with my AC ex numerous times here, but you seem to completely ignore it, and repeat ad nauseum that I am “obsessed” with my ex. If I am obsessed with my ex because I talk about my experiences with him, then I think everyone else here, including you, are too.
My major mistakes, ones that contributed to this cycle of abuse, were that I was too naive and trusting, wore my heart on my sleeve, which put me at a distinct disadvantage and open to abuse, given that he was a control freak and thought of ‘relationships’ as a power /control game. Not only that, but I had low self-esteem and didn’t want to let go of him for fear that I wouldn’t find anyone else who would want to be with me. I put up with his abuse in public because I am afraid of confrontation in relationships, especially with my ex, who kept blackmailing me by threatening to break up with me any time I raised a concern with his behavior (he kept saying “I don’t need this” any time I even started to talk about my concerns). Part of this has to do with the dysfunctional household I grew up in. My dad was a horribly abusive person, and was both physically and verbally abusive towards my mom when I was a kid, especially when my mom raised any concern or expressed dislike for something my dad said or did. My mom put up with it. She didn’t leave and take me and my sister with her because she could in no way support us. So she was stuck. But watching my dad do that day in day out, I guess taught me to be afraid of confrontation. That said, things got better over the years with my parents (I am now 30 and no longer live with them of course), but I suspect it just got ingrained into my psyche as a kid. My sister on the other hand, doesn’t have issues like that, and she is happily married. When we were kids, I was always the one who was affected more by this, though. I used to cry when my dad used to get violent with my mom, while my sister just completely ignored it. Maybe she had better coping mechanisms. That said, I also was (ironically) raised by my dad to be very independent and not to take any sh*t from anyone including and especially men, so when I told him and my mother about this AC the very first time he dumped me, they told me to not talk to him again, EVER. I didn’t heed their advice, of course. I was naive and stupid enough to believe he had changed. Maybe part of it was inexperience, too. It was my first ever relationship, at 29.. I lost my virginity to him, the whole deal. Anyway, this is just to show that I have done a lot of thinking and analyzing about my contributions to this terrible pattern of abuse that I couldn’t get out of for the past year. My people-pleasing and care-taking personality also made me feel sorry for him and wonder if he was doing ok even right after he dumped me. I was more concerned for his welfare than I was for mine. It’s crazy. Now I am learning to take care of myself, to do things for myself. I have started setting boundaries in my life, with friends, family, and men (though I am going to avoid men/dating for now). I am slowly regaining my self-esteem and self-respect, spending time on my own, doing nice things for myself, treating myself to nice things, telling myself that I deserve so much better. Every time I do something nice for myself, I tell myself that I deserve to be treated like this, rather than like some prostitute who owes the man sexual services. I am recovering from my really horrible self-image/body image issues as well, which got worse over the years as men did not pay much attention to me. I am now realizing I am beautiful, sexy, and have no trouble thinking of myself as such. In the past, I would never dare think of myself that way, not to mention that if I ever did, I would feel I was being arrogant. There’s nothing wrong with feeling like you are sexy. I dress up sometimes, just to feel sexy. My ex really also made my body image issues worse than they ever were, because he kept talking about how sexy women in Asia were compared to women in the West (which supposedly included me?), and because most of the time he didn’t even want to have sex with me, and preferred to ogle other women on the street or watch porn or just have me give him a blowjob, which made me feel horribly unsexy/unwanted. Anyway, I feel so much better now. I am amazed at the pace of my recovery. I was hit really hard by the first and second break-ups, had a VERY rough time, couldn’t get out of bed for weeks, couldn’t eat anything substantial for weeks, etc. The second break-up was especially bad because he had promised to visit me and I had laid off plans to go visit my sister over Christmas break, and then he had cancelled the plans and broken up with me 2 days before Christmas, which meant I was on my own (with all my friends and family being out of town) over Christmas and New Year’s, crying my eyes out. He got back in touch with me 3 weeks later after 3 weeks of NC on my part. I didn’t reply for a week, and wasn’t planning on doing so, but was then informed by my dad that he was diagnosed with cancer. I had a really hard time coping, and it just got to my head and I contacted him and told him I wasn’t doing well (he had asked me how I was doing) and that my dad was diagnosed with cancer. He didn’t even show concern about that, btw, which I realized only lately. I attributed that to him feeling a bit careful/reserved about what to say, given that he had hurt me only 3 weeks earlier. But no, he never cared much. Anyway, he professed his love for me that very same day, and said he’d come visit me. I was so naive that I thought that the fact that he was visiting ME rather than going to Thailand, meant that he had now gotten his priorities straight. But no, the REAL reason that he came here, I realize in retrospect, was that he thought he’d give his threesome fantasy one last effort/chance. He had been pressuring me to have threesome with another girl for the past year, after I told him (while we were sharing stuff about our past sexual experiences) that I have kissed a woman. The whole time that we were together, when we went out to bars, it was all about him trying to pressure me to pick up a girl at the bar. It was never about US having a good time and just enjoying each others’ company. I kept up the facade because no matter what I did, if I said no, etc., he would keep pressuring me. He wouldn’t take no for an answer, and I thought if I really stood VERY FIRM in my refusal to at least “try to pick up someone”, he would break up with me, something that I wasn’t emotionally ready for (for the aforementioned reasons). Besides, I thought it was near impossible (and it was) to find someone who was willing to do that, so I thought nothing harmful could come out of it. Meanwhile, it was really eroding my patience and my self-respect and self-esteem. Ultimately, at the end of his trip, I think he realized that since he couldn’t get the threesome fantasy fulfilled in 2 weeks of visiting me, there was no point in visiting me again. So he had decided to break up with me when he left in May. I could feel something was wrong with him, he was no longer talking to me the same way, not even pretending to make an effort anymore, etc. Of course, I, too, quit the relationship emotionally and mentally, because I had found out, only days before he left, that he had cheated on me, and the fact that I had confronted him about it, may have convinced him that it was for the best to break up since he wasn’t willing to commit and not drop his pants to every woman who even so much as glanced in his direction, not to mention his obsession with Thailand. But, he was such a coward, he couldn’t do the breaking up. For weeks, he kept acting totally distant or weird, hoping that I would create drama which he would then use to break up with me. Having had that happen to me in the previous 3 episodes of break-ups, and being constantly accused of being needy and naggy, I decided that I would take a hands-off approach this time around, not realizing that he was trying to break up with me. I just gave him his “space.” He got even more cranky because I didn’t get the hint.. Eventually, he completely disappeared for 3 days. When I called him to inquire if he was still alive, he didn’t pick up and texted me that he didn’t want to talk and that it was over between us. It was the worst 3 weeks, because I was kept on the emotional cliffhanger for weeks, my instincts telling me that there was something horribly wrong, but not knowing what to do, whether to chase after him (which might chase him away) or try to ignore it and hope it would go away and things would get better. In a way, though, the end result (him finally manning up and doing the break-up) really liberated me. I don’t think I would have ever done it, even though I had emotionally left the relationship by then, and had even “cheated” on him twice in the 3 weeks prior to the breakup (if one can call it cheating — I didn’t consider it cheating because he had been acting like we weren’t together, weeks before breaking up). I just felt like I couldn’t have it on my conscience to dump someone, because I didn’t want to make him feel bad / trigger bad memories from previous experiences he’d had (of women dumping him — him always being the dumpee, or so he claimed, not sure if there was truth to that).
I think you have been through a great deal, not only with your family situation, but with this asshole. I’m very sorry for what you have had to experience.
Certainly, your family history has much to do with the relationship and why you endured – I have my own family issues, and am certain it was a contribution to my own bad choices – but now you’re are making some positive steps forward, through recognition and self love. Please don’t do what I did, by allowing the ex to take up so much brain space, these people have already screwed with us enough,let’s not waste any more time on them.
I did not push the point to hurt or embarrass you, it was to show you that you are the only one that is important at this point, and this starts by letting go. We may not be in contact, but if we allow the ugly thoughts to consume, it is no different than the relationship still being active.
My apologies about the FB. I confused it with the email block.
Please stick with BR, as it is a life changer.
LaPinturaBella… <> is doing a dance of joy after reading your last post on this subject. THIS post is what we were trying to get you to see and to write about!!! You started unpacking the past and it is your past that caused you to pick the AC. It was your child self who recognized the familiar with this man…it IS your parent’s dynamic revisited and by picking him, you were trying to heal and re-write the trauma you experienced in your family.
THIS is what is going to lead to your healing, making healthy choices in partners and grow! Humans don’t grow or change until the pain is so great they HAVE to.
I applaud you. Please continue doing the work you just shared with us in this post…this IS THE WAY!!!
As for the AC… yes, be angry at him, he deserves it. Learn the lessons of how he treated you so you NEVER allow anyone to treat you like this again. I WILL say this to you every single day if need be, HIS choices, HIS attitudes towards women, his appalling behavior and actions are HIS AND HAVE NO BEARING WHATSOEVER ON YOUR WORTH AND VALUE!!!!!!!!!!
Put him out of your mind forever…he is so low and he is so unworthy that he doesn’t deserve to be given a second thought.
“THIS post is what we were trying to get you to see and to write about!!!… “.
Hi LaPinturaBella, I’m uneasy reading this and the reasons for that are to do with some particular issues
I have around my boundaries that are off topic and beyond the comment guidelines.
So my point…I can’t/don’t include myself in your reference to’we’, assuming that by that you mean the BR folk who have taken an interest/exchanged comments and responses with Lara. My intention and motivation are not critical but stem from a desire for self clarity. It’s in my own best interests that I ‘speak up’ as such. That’s all. Keep well. Lizzp
No problem Lizzp.
What I meant by, “This is what we were trying…” is that she focused on herself and why she put up with the AC. It’s what BR is for, IMO, to focus on ourselves, change what isn’t working and figure out why it needs changing and isn’t working. In addition to having a safe place to discuss what’s happened to us, to vent, to get angry…and most importantly to heal.
Also, I don’ think you’re being critical.
I, personally, was happy to see this post from Lara and excited for her. I learned that she and I share a very similar family background, including trauma, so for me, this post looked like a great leap forward for her. And I know how freeing it can be once you begin unpacking, deal with this junk and do heal from it.
Nat-
Should we be running when we meet a man who is friends with all his exes? My two serious relationships with EUMs both were friends with ALL exes. I see a trend here.
Well…I know one AC who is friends with all his exes and another AC who stated with pride that “All my exes hate me.”….so….split vote here.
Exile these ACs and EUMs to the “Former Lover” category and move on. It’s not like there are only TWO categories – “Friends” or “Lovers”. The “Let’s Be Friends” category is an emotional game of chicken. We use it when we don’t want the dumper to think they are so important to us that being in contact with them is painful for us. We don’t want to feel the pain so we act like there is no pain.
But there is pain….we need to be authentic, feel it, and get over it. So when he says “I hope we can still be friends”, Say “No. No we can’t, but we will always be Former Lovers. Good Bye.” Stop letting it bother you that he might see it as an ego stroke. So What? We’ll never see him again if we’re doing things right. This booty will be called no more.
Just because we aren’t “friends” doesn’t mean we are “enemies” either. They’re “nothing”……. Michael Corleone style.
Amen. This is so right, NML. My ex EUM instantly tried to downgrade me with “I’ll be the best friend you’ve ever had” as he tried not to be the bad guy and to press the reset button (while dumping me at 6 weeks pregnant with his child). I tried it for 6 weeks, and he failed even the cruddiest definition of friendship. Actions not matching words yet again. So, no, we will not be friends. NC all the way. This site opened my eyes to the use of the narcissistic harem – they’re all still ego-stroking him, the exes and the wannabes. They’re welcome to the mind f*ckery of that!
I’m glad I ran into this blog today..I need to vent and seek advice. I recently broke up with my boyfriend of 3 years. I was married prior to this relationship, which is an entirely different story. My most recent relationship started very soon after my divorce. It was a friend I had had since high school. We kept in touch over the years and reconnected later on in life…anyway, it felt like fate when we started dating. Like I was supposed to have been with him my whole life this far. Sounds cheesy, but he was always the best friend that really got me. Understood me. He was the friend that always made me laugh. We could talk for hours into the night. The physical attraction was through the roof and I thought there was nothing better. We live 3 hours from each other and have endured this long distance relationship the entire time. We’ve talked about marriage, about me moving to where he is…and I honestly felt like this was where I was supposed to be in life. He is my solemate. Only hang up is that we have always had pretty explosive arguments. Saying things we don’t mean, etc. I got a handle on reactions on my end and realized I wasn’t helping anything by fighting back. Since then, it almost seems like he has digressed with being able to have respectful conversations when we disagree. There seems to always be blowing up and hurtful words aimed at me. And hours later, an apology. While I’ve begged him to go seek a counselor(for reasons beyond this) he has agreed but doesn’t seem to follow through. I finally got fed up after the last time he said things he didn’t mean that we’re extremely hurtful and he now claims he never wants to speak to me again and that I abandoned the relationship. The truth is, I just want him to see that it’s become verbally abusive behavior and take action to deal with it. I am hurt and miss my best friend. I want him to change his behaviors and I am afraid I’m being stupid and too hopeful. I want to stand by him since he’s decided to go to counseling but now he’s pushing me away. I don’t know where to go from here. Feeling lost…
MG,
I’m sorry, you’re going through this.
Good that you removed yourself from the situation, as his actions demonstrated that he is not ready to change. Is he dangerous?
He seems to recognize a problem, but is not ready to deal with it. Why the explosive personality?
He has to want to do this for himself because if he does it for you, the patterns will return.
Stay away from this guy until he has had significant counseling, as this does not change overnight.
Stay safe and don’t give in.
The other reality I’ve faced is that EUM’s have a sixth sense that you have moved on and have managed to get your shit together. All of my former EUM’s have reappeared like the Night of the Living Dead and have tested my boundaries, except for two of them. I hear ya knockin’ but ya can’t come in!
OMG the same thing happens to me every time I start dating someone new or are interested in someone new my EUM shows up to offer a new trail of crumbs. It’s weird because he has no way of knowing but it happens all the time.
Allison,
He is not a physical threat but definitely has manipulated me(I’ve obviously allowed this to happen.) One minute he’s the greatest mean I have ever been with and the next he can’t put a lid on his temper. I’ve always accepted his apologies but they are starting to not mean anything anymore. Seems like some people really do hurt the ones they love the most. I know the best thing to do is not be in contact but its so difficult because I want him to understand I want to support him when he goes to counseling to try and work through whatever underlying anger he has. I don’t want him to feel like I don’t love him anymore. Yet, as of yesterday he said he didn’t need anyone in his life including me. Hurtful, yes. It’s just not like him to truly mean that. He’s one of those guys that everyone loves and gets along with. Full of life and adventure, yet has this other side to him I don’t think anyone else sees. It almost makes me question whether its my own tainted interpretation of his behavior or if he really is the way he is. I sure don’t want to start a life and have kids with a man who could lose his temper over the smallest thing. I think what you’re saying needs to happen though..to steer clear of him until he’s had counseling. Ughhh. Heartbroken and disappointed.
MG,
The best thing you can do is stay away. Not only is this best for your sanity, but for his treatment. This is on him, and he will progress better if there are no distractions.
He knows that you love him! Please don’t use it as an excuse to stay close- not good for either of you.
If he really wants to change, he will begin the journey.
Big hug and stay NC!
So can relate to your situation and just have this to say. If you love him, love him. BUT believe me, the support part is a waste of energy, especially if it means that you have to suffer though the problem with him. You can hope he gets his act together, but you can’t be more emotionally invested in him getting better than he is. And right now you are. Probably because you feel like you have more on the line than he does. And you probably do. You might assume that his emotional investment in you is the same as yours in him. I know I did with my last relationship and that is a mistake to assume based on what they say alone. People love you with action. THEIR action not just by tolerating your actions. If he is emotionally invested in your relationship working, he won’t WANT to be with you or around you until he feels he is someone worthy of you. Because people that love you want you to take care of yourself foremost. Best of luck to us all. 🙂
Mg12 You might want to check out Natalie’s blog on the returning childhood sweetheart and how these relationships are often built on fantasy and a belief that there are shared values when there aren’t. The “he/she was my best friend who really got me” when we were much younger doesn’t really have much application to today although it may seem so at first. He has some really significant personal problems in terms of respect and dealing with issues.
There are quite a few woman on this blog who talk about how their exes are one way with them and another way to the outside world. My ex didn’t explode like this but was often disrespectful in the way he talked to me and treated me although he would deny this. He is overly nice with others though. And for a LONG time (and even still a bit now) my vision of him was not clear because I saw he was “nice” to others so I denied he could be so NOT nice to me.
In my case I did a lot of emotional placating to avoid the disrespect and blocking of communication or verbal attacks that came my way. No respectful relationship that is good for us should end up with our having to silence our voice.
Honestly, I think this man has done you a favour by saying he doesn’t want you in his life. He is trouble
Elgie,
Had to post after reading some of your messages, I too was involved though not for very long with a MM, we only had sex once and it was awful, obviously some major sexual problems with him. We had been friends for a long time before and I fell for the big ‘my wife won’t have anything physically to do with me’. I loved the attention and the validation I got from him, I was unceremoniously dumped the day after we had sex by text when he basically told me they would now be trying for a baby together!!! AC to the highest extent. I feel awful for his wife and what I did, the AC and I work together and for that I tried to maintain some sort of friendship (and if I’m completely honest I wanted him on my life in some capacity, how is that for messed up?). I’m now trying nc with him, he wouldn’t speak to me face to face, only be e-mail and the very occasional text. Finally told him I was not doing good and that he had caused a lot of it, haven’t heard anything back since, which I knew I wouldn’t as he will not be able to handle that. I’ve made myself physically ill over this, major stomach problems caused by stress and anxiety, I’m seeing a counsellor, and will probably need anti-depressants at some point. I cannot forget about him, even tho I know he is a f*ckwit of the highest order and simply adding more complications to a life which is more than complicated enough. My self esteem could not get any lower now, why do we torture ourselves like this and allow these ac’s to belittle and disrespect us so much?
Messed Up Girl,
He is most definitely a f*ckwit of the highest order and my heart goes out to you.
You ask “why do we torture ourselves like this and allow these ac’s to belittle and disrespect us so much?”.
I think it’s because they trigger a painful need and/or insecurity in us and we desperately try to hang on or make it go away by holding on to them. It is amazing what we end up putting up with because of this. In my case the exMM most definitely triggered my need for a father figure (gross, I know) and I clung to him because I didn’t want him to abandon me like my father had. The truth is that he was never there anyway so he couldn’t ‘abandon’ me, but it felt like he did. From then on I’ve hung on because I need him to validate me. Sticking to NC has been a problem for me because of my need for him to make me feel worthy. It’s taking me a long time to accept that I am worthy and that I don’t need that validation from him. It is a work in progress.
Keep seeing your counselor and maybe you might find that he has triggered something deep within you. You can then start to re-build your self-esteem and stop the torture because torture it definitely is. Hugs to you, xxx
Hi Messed Up Girl
This man is a reckless, impulsive and manipulative jerk and please try not to waste any more time on your sadness about him. What did he actually give you that was real? He screwed two women, his wife AND you and the best advice I can give you is to read the posts here obsessively and do the best to try to take steps to make YOUR life better every day so that he stops taking such a big space in it. I promise you it will get better although I know that is hard to believe right now. Some days will be bad and some will be “somewhat better” for quite awhile.
Please don’t make yourself vulnerable by telling him how you feel. He has already told you by his actions that he is reckless and manipulative.
And oh, don’t be surprised if he recontacts you again when his wife makes a demand on him for something. Getting back together to make a baby is like getting back together to buy a new house – a temporary distraction from the reality of a messed up relationship. Be prepared for that and to be strong.
As you say, that line “my wife doesn’t offer physical attention/sex/whatever” is one of the oldest self pity “come on” lines in the book. If that is happening in a marriage then it is pretty certain the wife has LOTS of things to be angry about…and probably most of all HIM. These guys leave this part of the story out!
My ex would have said that about me to another woman and I am sure still will. He is full of self pity for himself and always refused to look at his real contribution to the quality, respect, empathy, understanding and etc in the relationship. Even though I tried in many ways to find this in the relationship he was deaf to this and his emotional disengagement is just what he wanted. So yes, I did stop responding to him (Oh he was very rejecting in lots of ways physicially too). We make it SO easy for this creeps NOT to take responsibility for what THEY do in relationships. Sorry, perhaps I am projecting here. 🙂
I see that many men actually do not move on from their marriages because they never take the time to learn about themselves, their roles and how they need to change and so for many they will simply never go forward and often they go back (or back and forth). They cannot be trusted because they haven’t got a clue and we are just temporary fillers. It is a sad thing but my ex told me that the intense emotional committed relationship he started right away was based on “just anyone” that came along. We are just passing stop overs in the night.
Messedupgirl, Hope you are feeling a little better today. As per my other response to you there is also the matter of addressing your own relationship and cheating.
espresso and lizzp,
Thank you both for your responses, lizzp, I’m still dealing with the whole cheating thing in both respects, I know that probably has a lot to do with the way I’m feeling as well. I’m trying to put my energy into working out how to fix my own relationship and try to make up for my own actions as well.
The thing that’s scaring me is how much my own health is being affected by this, my dr has told me I will have to take better care of myself and has put me on antidepressants which I am extremely wary about taking. I know if I need them then I need them but to start taking something like that over some AC who doesn’t give a toss, that’s another thing altogether.
I am well aware he will probably be back in contact at some time, I’ve tried not to validate his ego anymore by telling him how bad I feel, just haven’t contacted him at all, I so wish I didn’t work in the same place as him but luckily I don’t have to see him all the time as we’re in different parts of the building. I know we must all have wished it at some time but if only I could turn back time I would have NOTHING whatsoever to do with this moron. I will get through this and I know I will, I need to have patience and get stronger both physically and mentally, and I am determined that I will. There’s no way I’m letting this AC make me ill anymore, I need to focus on me and my own relationship, working out the demons that made me go anywhere near that idiot in the first place.
And in response to what you were saying about a baby just being the temporary solution, I think you’re completely right, and I hope for the sake of any child born into that toxic, lying environment that she doesn’t fall pregnant to him, and please don’t think I mean that with any kind of malice, I just think their relationship is so screwed up that any poor baby put in the middle of it could not possibly be happy. He really is a lying, manipulative scumbag.
Messed up Girl,
I just wanted to make two points. The guy who I was seeing recently was separated (not divorced) but told me that in the last years of his unhappy marriage, he and his wife tried to have a third baby. He thought that it would “fix” the problems in the marriage (doh). They couldn’t conceive, but I highly doubt that a third child would have fixed the marriage! And the two children they already have can’t be happy with the amount of bitterness that exists between him and his ex. Or his general fuckedupness.
On to antidepressants (and I’ve found myself writing this to a few women here recently) – think carefully. Obviously I am not your doctor, and don’t know your full situation regarding your health, but I don’t generally advocate the use of antidepressants (in some cases they have their use, I do accept that). They blunt your feelings (feelings that you could and should be facing with some help from a counsellor), they have significant side effects and can be a real pig withdrawing from. I have a bee in my bonnet about antidepressants, and sometimes I think that doctors just dole them out because it’s easier (and cheaper) than tackling the real underlying issues. Just my opinion.
All the best.
MaryW
Re antidepressants – I have found them very, very helpful and they have given me a great relief from the chattering inner voices which all my life had dragged me down. I was in therapy for a year before that, which was somewhat helpful but wasn’t enough.
The first couple of months were rough but it was worth it. Looking back on it I have struggled with unacknowledged depression and anxiety all my life. This summer (a time of year I always dreaded) has been the best ever despite difficult personal and family issues and the dismantling of my marriage.
If recommended by a Dr, I think they are worth considering.
Thanks to everyone for your replies, MaryW, I am really concerned about the antidepressants myself, and I will be thinking very carefully and speaking to my counsellor before making a decision about them. As I said in my last post, taking them because I genuinely need them is one thing but taking them because of an AC of the highest order is quite another.
The baby thing I know is between him and his wife, it’s a measure to try and fix a relationship which is messed up beyond belief. They have now both cheated in their first year of marriage, could just be me but I don’t see it lasting. However, that’s their business, I’ve got to take a step back and KEEP OUT of their relationship, in thoughts and actions.
Lilly, in regards to your message, I can understand completely where you are coming from, I used him totally for validation, to feel attractive and fill all the spaces in my own life and relationship thinking I was in control, what a joke, and it’s on me!! I too knew I would find nc practically impossible which is why I deleted all texts and his number from my phone, if I didn’t I would not have been able to stop myself from contacting him. E-mailing at work has been rather more difficult as obviously I can’t remove him from mailing list but I have managed so far and I have faith that it will get easier, it’ll just take time. If he does contact me again, and he probably will, I know it will be torture not to speak to him, hopefully by then I will be feeling a good bit stronger and will be able to tell him exactly where to go. Thanks again to you for listening and the support I have been given, it really is appreciated. Onwards and upwards ladies!
Hi Messed up girl,
I hope you are no longer feel bad these very times. I also have been dumped by a man and I have posted here last July 26 as that very times I also felt so down because of the Indian guy who dumped me because his mom did not approved of us and wanted only their own kind. The start of the whole thing was also a good one and he is also my workmate. We even share a company bus and it really feel so bad to see him especially now he seems to show that he is talking with a woman from India in their own dialect. I felt that he is hurting me more the way he do that. It made me felt he never cared that he hurt me, dumped me, cheated me and showed no concern of my feelings. Worst is he also said some swearing words to me in his email. Yes we did not talk personally after he got engage and he even sent me their photos. Life was so sad for me those very times especially I live alone being also a migrant in this western world we now belong. I understand how you feel but we must help ourself and try to ignore him. If you scroll down to July 26 comments, Sophia have a very good comment in my post which relieved me too. I also started listening to some preaching and read and read the article of Natalie above. These men are not worthy of us, they are cowards and selfish so do not let your life be brought into deep sadness because of him. I get myself busy, watch movies, zumba and go out and I also talked with my friends. At times, they said it is good that we say everything until you find nothing to say about this moron who break your heart. They are not worthy to bring our life down. Just remember this, if he was able to something behind his wife’s back he will also do that to you so even if he will choose you now, you will still come to a point in life that you will cry. You must be thankful that you already are getting ready to start anew. We make some mistakes in life but that doesn’t mean we will stay there and with the person who caused us pain. Do not mind it if you see him at work, if he do not feel any guilt feelings with all these then he is a bad heart who will just wait for his next victim. Be thankful he cut it right away after one time sex, just imagine what else can he bring to you if you let this fake relationship keep going. I wish you well and please be healed.. accept that you made a mistake, do not condemn yourself of this mistake, God doesn’t want us to be condemned but he wants us to be victorious. This pain too will pass, I am also grieving at the moment that is the reason why I am here. I just come here because I know that at times it really feels so bad and all of us who are in this situation must try to help each other. I was helped by Sophia and I also would like to share some healing words for you. God bless and be strong.
Wow this one really really hits home! Although my EUM was never malicious and didn’t ever lie to me or anything of that sort, he never gave me the affection and time spent with him I wanted in a relationship, which honestly wasn’t asking much, 3-4 days a week. After 8 months in I was miserable, crying all the time, felt like I wanted to date other people because I felt so unfulfilled (he has major issues with intimacy in all aspects), we broke it off. He freaked out saying he never wanted me out of his life and he meant never. I told him we will never be “friends” and he after our breakup was contacting me daily is if we never broke up when I had to stop him and say “hey it’s really all or nothing”. He tried to pull the “friends” thing, what a joke and all the while he was saying things like “I don’t want to see you with anyone else ever in my lifetime” or “I never want to lose you out of my life” …ummm err my friends would be happy to see me with someone else. It’s really a way to keep you there with never giving you what you deserve, a selfish crumb giving way. He still actually 2 months later calls me every two weeks or texts drunk knowing I told him to leave me alone then calls the next day to say sorry for calling to then try and act like we are fine and talking regularly again. HELLO, what does he not get? We are NOT friends. I will for sure not be answering anymore. He can sulk on his own and feel sorry for himself. Not my problem any longer.
Hi, M Up Girl. I been away from this thread for a while…sorry I missed you. But I have been on this site almost every day…reading ….learning…being punched in the face with honesty. Sometimes I had to walk away from my laptop because the truth was …..difficult. I’ve got so many bookmarked pages here….!
You sounded very healthy in your last post here. YAY.
Wanted to say – PLEASE stop telling him how you feel. All that does is give him an ego stroke! He is preening in self-delight knowing some woman is hurting over him. He plotted to get you in bed JUST so he could dump you and see you in pain. He will do it again to another woman, just like he did before he met you to some woman you don’t even know about. And so far as the things he told you about the state of his marriage, his wife cheating…..hmph!……you can’t be sure it is the truth. And, regardless, it doesn’t matter. He was a creep to you. And if you let him, he will do it again. He does not care much about your well-being and will see how much you’ll let him play with you, just for giggles.
It’s a game with these boys. You wanna really mess with his head? Treat him like he does not matter. Stay no contact.
The thread “How Much Time Are You Really Spending Thinking About You?” – go read that. As many times as you need to.
My internal litmus test has become “What’s in it for me?”. I call it up any time my spidey senses start tingling….which signals a boundary alert…they want something from me……What’s in it for me? From the coworker frenemy nosing around about my vacation (Welcome back! Thanks. Did you have fun? Yes. Did you go anywhere? I did a few things and enjoyed it very much!….she leaves, I win).To the AC you think about contacting. What’s in it for you?
I know in my gut that if I have sex with my AC again, he will pull a disappearing act What’s in it for me.
We have to stop projecting our feelings onto these ACs. They show us who they are. They tell us who they are. I read stories posted here and wonder why we don’t walk away quicker.
Accept the fact that they have some VERY BAD QUALITIES living alongside some not so bad qualities. And you need to cut those VERY BAD QUALITIES off at the pass. Do not let him take advantage of your kindness.
I have lazy communicated to AC twice this month. But I don’t feel like a backslider. It’s almost like I needed to do that familiar behavior, and once done, I had my fix. Four days after my first contact (“thinking about you”) he responded with an e-mail that surprisingly cooled my jets. It was our typical exchange, sexy things he’d like to happen, and I went cold. The second time, Thursday, I left a v-mail on his work number which I called knowing he was gone. “Just saying hi”. My building need to contact him went away and I felt very upbeat. And immediately thought “No way do I want to have sex with him.”
He had called my cell a few days prior…I let it go to v-mail. It was a verbal lazy communique….so I returned it because I am not trying to “dump” him…..I’d rather ease down – and out. He showed me who he was…plenty of times! I am the one who led me astray. To me, being mad at him is like complaining that McDonalds doesn’t serve filet mignon. You knew it was McDonalds when you walked in.
And I enjoy NOT giving him the satisfaction of thinking I am writhing in emotional pain over him. Because I’m not. None of us are, really. We are hurting ourselves and need to stop it immediately.
And then we need to begin fighting for ourselves. Start tackling some limiting beliefs. Stop settling for less than what we want, which requires we put in the WORK to figure out WHAT WE WANT and then go after it. You can’t make love happen, but you can definitely make your life happen.
To the general group: I do not feel I was ruining this ACs marriage. I have always known that this man has an active harem…at least 2 other women at any point. Besides, the two people in the marriage are what make or break it. But wife had to know he was McDonalds when she walked in, too.
Sometimes….I’ve wondered about my AC’s sexual leanings. Just little observances over the years. While I don’t think he has sex with men …..not yet anyway…I think something might’ve happened in his youthful past that makes him unsettled about what he really likes. He is extremely homophobic. In my experience, my hopelessly bad lovers – the ones only interested in the parts where they can take pleasure – they have all expressed extreme homophobia.
Yet they take no real interest in a woman’s body. They don’t want to learn anything about your body. Even when asked. Two were single when I was with them and are married now….late to the altar. I got an invite to one of their weddings YEARS after my knowing that AC. Another was an EUM who had low interest in sex. My current AC is the only one I dealt with who was already married, and wow is he a successful predator. He once snorted that he told his wife “Women’s friendships don’t last as long as men’s.” I remember thinking ‘How could she have friends with a man like you around? You’ll hit on every one of them and some of them will say Yes.’
I’ve wondered if chalking up conquest after conquest is a drug the sexually confused AC needs to assure themselves of their sexuality. As if each time they bang a woman counts as one more brick in the mental wall they are building around their true sexuality.
You do know the demographic where HIV is rising fastest is in African-American women over 50.
I am currently reading the book. Its too painful because i finally understand that the relationship with him was doomed to begin with, and that I made my mistakes and have my personal issues to work on. Its painful but explaining things with logic, seeing them finally on paper helps a lot and a lot of my whys? and why nots? are finally answered and now i think i can finally let him go. As i am reading others posts, i often think come on girl why did you let him treat you like that? I then realise i did let him also treat me bad, but i can no longer blame him for tham. I let him, and i think he tried in his own way to be with me but being e.u that was the further he could go. So i am no longer angry with him, nor feel manipulated or anything. I did not know then, what i know now. I just hope that in future i will finally meet someone that trully cares about me, and everything will finally make sense.
Hi all. I really wished i would have found this site months earlier which may have saved what little dignity and self respect i had. Boyfriend and I broke up 4 months ago. He needed “time”. i didn’t know this was code for breaking up so it took me a while to digest. I had been miserable during that time and did a bunch of stuff that caused me to be rejected by him over and over and still i did not get the messages. I’d read all of his “drunk” texts telling me he missed me and still loved me with a ridiculous amount of excitement thinking he actually cared. When i finally decided i needed to try to move on, i thought we could be friends. i told him about some dates i’d gone on and he’d make comments like “maybe you shouldnt be trying because i realize i’m not over you” etc etc. Fast forward to august 4. He calls me over at 3am (another red flag) and I’m noticing women’s things at his place where my things used to be and he states its his “friend” she’s just there to get out of the house. she’s 20, he’s 40. Tells me he loves me and we should make this work but at the same time he’s actually bragging to me about this girl wth (how pretty she is, how she makes him feel like “the man”) again as i’m typing this i cannot believe i allowed this…I’m smiling acting ok but every shred of my battered self-esteem was dying. End up sleeping together when the new girlfriend uses her KEY to come in while i’m there.he proceeds to tell me to “shhh”. couldnt believe it, i felt that i was in the twilight zone. he goes out and i hear him tell her ‘you were the one out all night”..i then realize i was only there to make her jealous. i let her know the things he had said to me and , he flips “don’t be mad because i moved on and you havent. SHE didn’t deserve that. You wanted to make sure i never get to be happy. Don’t be jealous of her because she is prettier and thinner than you.” My head was spinning. i have no clue how i made it out in one piece.
I am trying to move on but i keep hearing and seeing the things he said and I know I caused some of this myself by not having boundaries but that does not stop it from hurting so much. i have no clue how to start liking me again and no clue how to get over this hurt. any, i mean any advice would help. i barely function on my job, i hate being in my home now, and i just have been a mess for too long.
Dear Marcia, i do understand being upset with that guy at that time, but why now??? Why losing anymore of your precious time thinking about a person who is such a loser. I just red what you wrote and you should be glad you have finally realised what a jerk he is and move on and find some normal guy to have a healthy relationship with. If you cant see this and have still feelings you should propably focus on you, and deal with your own issues, and forget him!! He does not worth even one more second of your time! stay strong
Marcia, I know how awful it is to be on the receiving end of such appalling callousness, and how hard it is not to take it personally (like it confirms something real about yourself), even when it comes from a complete loser like this creep. One thing that helped me was when a friend said “remember the source.” This guy sounds like absolute pond scum, and therefore his opinions about you are completely worthless. When the memories of those hurtful words overwhelm you, replace them immediately with some affirmations. Ones that helped me were “I am a woman of grace and dignity.” “I am a child of God.” “I care for myself with kindness and courage.”
I beat myself up for a long time over what a fool I was and how I had allowed myself to be played. I was merciless. And then I realized I was treating myself worse than he had! He was only an idiot and a fool. What was my excuse? I eventually discovered the only way out was forgiving myself and treating myself with great kindness. I urge you to look up information about “self-compassion” as I think this will help immensely.
Marcia,
Oh heeeyyyyyllllll no. This guy is an insecure little twat who is trying to put all the blame on YOU and your supposed insecurities (which, let’s face it, we all have–but which arrogant talentless little piss ants like this try to stir the pot with to make them feel like “the man” because deep down they know that they are anything BUT).
Of course, you’re not off the hook here either. Going over to his house at 3am, especially after you’re broken up and he gave you the flaccid “I don’t know what I want” bullshit speech? Not a smart move. Sleeping with him after knowing he had another chick there? Not good.
I’m not pistol-whipping you, girl. I just think you deserve much more self-respect, yes even now after these episodes. No one deserves that type of behavior. And everything hurtful he said and did that night was designed to a)hurt you because somehow you must have pricked his fragile little ego (boo freakin’ hoo), and b)create an alternate fantasy universe where women will fight over him and he will feel like “the man,” even though–let’s face it–any man that has to do this probably has as much testosterone as Ryan frickin’ Seacrest (sorry, fans).
Follow the advice my mother gave me when I “saw the light” and was “touched by an angel” (a BR angel, that is–also known as our Miss Nat ;)) and “Turn your back on him. Walk away and don’t look back.”
Yes, you will hurt for a bit. It’s the residuals of his ass-ey treatment of you, and yes of your losing self-respect because you allowed it. But you can get that back. You can move on, I promise. Look at all of the foxy ladies here who did it. And now we’re all just like, (picture some fine-ass bitches holding cocktails and looking at each other with incredulity), “I can’t believe I dated THAT motherfucker.”
Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!
A twenty-year-old tellin’ him he’s the man???? She lyin. She’s stayed out the other nite? She’s bored with him already. He’s trying to bring her in tow by making her jealous. Who’s he gonna call? NOT YOU.
Lesson learned.
Why are you beating yourself up over this HUGE AC. What a jerk! What a self-centered, sexually insecure little boy! Actually….he’s a typical AC, really.
You should be laughing at him…does he really think he can hurt you with that high-school behavior. You shoulda looked at him in his living room and said “You are a Creep.”..then turned to her and said “You can have him.”……and then vow he gets no more of your brain power.
AC Case Closed.
And the next time you run in to him…?….back up and run in to him again.
But seriously…..forget this AC. Like YESTERDAY.
Thanks ladies: love that “And the next time you run in to him…?….back up and run in to him again. ”
His condo is right across the street where I work…tried a different route today…baby steps…..
now if i can get through the day without replaying a million other meanspirited things he said to me during and after our relationship was over, then today will be a big win….!