Have you ever been on the best date ever or best few dates ever, only to be unceremoniously blanked afterwards despite promises of another date? This person wanted to leave you with a really good impression and fill you up with good feelings and memories so that when you didn’t hear from them again, they could move on with a clear conscience.
Some people extend this beyond dates and devote their energies to trying to come out smelling of roses when really, it’s Eau de Bullsh*t (BS). It doesn’t matter whether it’s months or years; they engage in compartmentalisation and image management activities that appear to put them in a good light.
They’re masters of abrupt endings of what are often believed (by outsiders and even their partners), to be near “perfect” relationships.
Holding back their concerns or their secret ambivalence, you’re invariably ambushed by their announcement (if you get one) and their exit, all while insisting that there’s no one else (even though there is).
The exit can be so fast and in such a way that it can be tricky to get answers to burning questions. If they dignify a conversation, it’ll be poetic and nostalgic smoke and mirrors, possibly reminding you how amazing you are and how they’ve been so happy in the relationship (So why the eff are you leaving me then?, you wonder). Or, you’re met with such an alarmingly level of coldness that you wonder if they’ve experienced a knock to the head. They might even sleep with you, take you out to dinner or even on a fancy holiday, to let you down gently…
You may be brokenhearted while singing their praises even when others aren’t. It can be uncomfortable to admit that you may have felt flattered or even very grateful, that somebody “like them” had ‘chosen’ you, that you don’t know how entrenched you are in their image.
This image management and compartmentalisation malarkey is at the dubious end of people pleasing, which on the whole is about trying to influence and control people’s feelings and behaviour by attempting to cater to and satisfy what we perceive as other people’s needs, expectations, desires, feelings, and opinions, so that we can relieve tension and avoid conflict, criticism etc. You don’t see what’s coming because in their efforts to ‘look good’, they smile to your face, closely guard their innermost feelings and thoughts even when they contradict that outward appearance, and appear to be giving you ‘everything’, because they’re wearing a mask while telling you (or inferring) that it’s their face.
In their mind, they’re not going be “that guy” or “that woman”, you know, the one who’s cheating on their partner. They’re above that. They are doing it but it’s not cheating. It’s horizontal friendship or some other guff. They don’t want to be in the same camp as say, their own parent/caregiver or even yours, so they pad out what they’re doing with all of this puffing you up and sheltering you from the truth.
They carefully manage their image and their exit with what they feel are their various “good deeds”, all with the underlying expectation that when they make their exit, they have enough pleasing credits in the bank to prevent questioning of their image. It’s like, “Well I gave them a good time right up until the end didn’t I?” The truth becomes irrelevant.
They also use those same credits to justify why they don’t want to try and salvage things – the “good deeds” were in lieu of actually discussing or resolving issues. They think they’ve done more than enough.
They’ve come up with a set of conditions under which they feel they they’re “OK”. This is their benchmark of supposed rightness and decency. Each time their conscience pricks, they remember their “good deeds” (or what they feel that they could have done that would be worse).
They believe they’re controlling the uncontrollable and have failed to account for the fact that 1) people have feelings, that 2) regardless of intentions, there are unintended consequences, and that 3) even if they’ve done everything possible to build up credits and hide any misdeeds, they invariably come out.
They refuse to accept that they’re bang out of order or certainly that their image isn’t what they fight so hard to preserve because it could challenge their perception, not just of this relationship but of every relationship and experience that they’ve used this image to avoid taking responsibility and being accountable.
It doesn’t matter if you don’t agree with those conditions or whether it’s evident that you’re more impacted than they predicted; from their end, they feel off the hook and can display an alarming lack of sensitivity.
That person who you suspected that they were involved with, is often the one they’re whirling around town with claiming that they’re “just friends”. What’s also quite fascinating is that sometimes, when the truth starts to seep out, in order to make it now appear as if the dodgy deeds or the way in which things were handled was justifiable, there’s a haste to get engaged, pregnant, or make it known what a new and charmed life they’re leading. They’ll damn near do a PR exercise on their new partner so that the images match up to the story they tell themselves.
By effectively setting you up and ticking their boxes of what they feel is a decent partner, it can back you into a corner because you’re likely to speak highly of them in the initial aftermath (before the truth sinks in or becomes known), plus they’ve often charmed everyone from your friends to the person who does your gas meter reading. This often means that when they do show their insensitivity by flaunting their new partner and life a hot minute after the breakup or it comes to light that they were cheating or anything else dodgy, people struggle to call them out on it, with some near excusing it. “He/she is so funny, creative and yada yada yada that I guess they outgrew the relationship and needed to find someone who was more on their level” or shite like, “The heart can’t help what the heart wants”.
Because of the way they exited and basically greased everyone up along the way (including you), when you so much as make a slight mention of the sheer duplicity, some will jump to their defence and others will just choose to see you as “bitter”. You’re gossiped about and blamed for the demise of your relationship while they’re free to go.
And of course they are – they’ve had weeks or even months to set things up and to compartmentalise the hell out of what they’re thinking, feeling and doing. If you’d had the same heads up, you might too!
It’s when you recognise this, that you experience pangs of pain and frustration remembering those little niggles that you (or they) pushed aside, plus they often had a rigidness about some aspect of theirs and your life that looking back, it now fits with this newly forming picture of a person who says and does stuff in an image driven way. It doesn’t have to be lining up the towels and tinned goods like the 1991 film, Sleeping With The Enemy, but it might be as simple as a penchant for awkward unusable furniture, or only seeing your mutual friends in very specific circumstances that showcase them. They may have resisted conflict or insisted on you coming across a certain way.
They may have been more controlling than you were willing to admit.
When you look back, you can see signs that they’d checked out at a certain point or that they put up walls, and that even more importantly – and it may have crept up on you – you lost yourself along the way.
Just because someone tries very hard to come up smelling of roses, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t smell like the BS that it is, to you (and to others).
It doesn’t mean that you have to write off the good times and you can certainly appreciate those times for what they were, but stop trying to be loyal to their persona and stop acting as if it was some sort of freak incident that a person “like them” was with you for a time and that you’ve lost your worth. Yes their behaviour is damn hurtful and downright frustrating but the truth will prevail (maybe not on your beat), but grieve the loss of this relationship, let the chips fall where they may, learn what you can from this experience, and do right by you by living your life well… authentically.
Your thoughts?
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Yep, that is what dating a narcissist feels like.
I’ve smelled that Eau de BS when the oxytocin wore out. I think I’ve learned my lesson. I won’t get fooled again. Great article!
When chemo started so did his disappearing act, and when I called it on him he loves me forever and is so sorry that he wasn’t there for me, but two weeks later he continues to be a disappearing act. The shite stinks ovah heah!!!! I also learned that he went on a jazz cruise with his ex wife so it’s all dirty.
Ugh. Not to get in your business, but RUN!!
Oh, the man in your life who refuses to help you in any tangible way? That was my ex of the past decade. I am at the point now of NC for 6 months and healing well, slowly but surely gaining myself and am happy. I am sure he tells another story about me to make others feel sorry for him, but they are trivial compared to the way he treated me over and over……
We are so much better off without them. Stronger than we know, and the body has an amazing capacity to heal itself. Lots of love to you, it is hard but day by day you recover from f*%#ed up people and regain yourself.
Hi Sandy,
That man was cruel and abominable abandoning you when you were going through such a challenge. He doesn’t deserve a second thought from you. Life has a way of even things out. I hope that you are fully recovered and healthy.
Sandy, I hope you’re feeling better now. Sending you my (virtual) support and hugs.
As for the man, what a freaking coward! You’re so better off. Just reading about a behavior like that one made me want to wash my hands immediately.
Awe that sucks. I hope you get some support thur this rough time in your health. He real man, if not available for a good reason would be there for his women. He is not real. Kick this fool to the curb. Best rule of thumb “If he is there for you in the worst of times then he will be there for the best of time” anything less is just a boy practicing to be a man.
Wow… that’s so well-said, Karen! “If he is there for you in the worst of times then he will be there for the best of time” anything less is just a boy practicing to be a man.
I experienced one of the most stressful times of my life in the midst of my relationship with my ex and I did find it funny that :
– he seemed “standoffish” and didn’t seem to care, mostly keeping silent and just looking blankly at me;
– he never bothered to even pretend to care or offer a helping hand in any way; and
– for the longest time, I thought I didn’t manage my stress enough and that’s why I repelled him, and thought it was all my fault.
However, a man who loves you and is in it for real will not just stand by and watch dumbly and mutely when you are in distress. Or worse, run and disappear!
Sandy, I hope that your health is better now and good riddance to that heartless creep!
I’m so sorry to hear he’s treating you so poorly. It’s bad enough under regular circumstances, but to sink so low when you need him the most is incomprehensible. What a selfish coward. I hope you do not have any contact with him.
I pray that you have loving, supportive people in your life and that you are healing and getting stronger everyday.
Speaking as a cancer survivor who went something similar with a dude; this guy is an utter bas%$#@ who, as Nat aptly put it, doesn’t deserve the steam off your pee.
I smell a rat Sandy. One of my very close family members is on chemo now. It is ruff. Sending you my love.
Xx Peanut
That guy does not love you.
Thank you. This is spot on, and one of the things I have really struggled with. He treated me poorly during the relationship (would always apologize), broke up with me through text, then refused to meet with me to discuss the relationship unless it was somewhere public…I finally got him to agree to talking with me in my car (pathetic). Not even two weeks after he dumped me he was pursuing his “just a friend” girl, likely sleeping with her, while my stuff was still in the garage of what used to be our house. It’s so frustrating to see him galavanting around with her, doing things with her he never did with me. And the worst part is I had my suspicions about this girl and he was able to get me to doubt myself, to think it was just jealousy/my insecurities.
I wish I could rant to all our mutual friends and expose his poor behavior, most of then do know my side of things, but I wish everyone would know what a selfish loser he is. I hate how he gets to act like everything is fine and not deal with the end of our relationship, where im left with dealing with being discarded and replaced. While I know it’s for the best and I have no desire to be with him, I hope that with time his true colors will show with this new girl. Though the fact that she started dating him (and was texting and flirting with him while we were still together) 2 weeks after he broke up with his live-in gf of 3 years shows what kind of girl she is…they may be perfect for one another.
Oh God, that post made me want to projectile vomit all over myself.
I wrote my insane, cheating ex a condolence letter a few weeks ago and that spun into four or five days of the most needless, insane, constant drama I have experienced since we broke it off for good last year.
Now I wouldn’t even consider a casual friendship or even pay her an e-mail condolence if her whole family died at the same time in a Martian attack.
After those four or five days in contact with her, I felt slimy for days, like I’d been living in a snake farm.
To think I used to believe that I loved her. She’s gotten so crazy you can almost smell it over the phone. Never again. She actually scared me with how crazy she’d gotten.
My higher power must have a wicked sense of humor.
A little while ago, I was rummaging through a desk drawer I rarely use, looking for an empty candy box I’d saved. Instead I found a journal from 2003, right after I left the cheater.
I’d gotten mixed up with another EU who was just as nutty as this other squirrel. She was a recovering alcoholic with two little kids and an estranged husband who lived in a little cottage behind her main house. She decided to come out of the closet… with me.
After merely setting the story up, you can guess how awful it turned out in just 8 months.
I think God put that little journal there to remind me to simmer down and stop contacting anyone with “my ex” before their name.
I must have been the most codependent woman in Texas to put up with back-to-back EU assclowns like them. I guess I had to learn the same lesson twice.
But the blessing has been my revulsion toward the kind of people and/or relationships I used to think were normal.
Jeeze, I’d rather be alone the rest of my life than deal with either one of those chimpanzees again.
I think I’m actually healing and developing some useful self esteem.
The thought of living an authentic life without the burden of needless drama (that isn’t my own) is fabulous.
I am a lot happier doing my own thing than having to suffer fools gladly.
Thanks, Natalie. You have helped me a lot.
Karen you’re post made me laugh and laugh, sounds like my love life. I’ve been visiting this blog for awhile and just love it.
I’m also a woman who attracts the craziest, most self-absorbed women on the planet. The most recent disaster lasted six weeks. She tried to convince me that I was the best thing since sliced bread, that is until she met her next victim, who she was getting to know while she was still with me. I blocked her number when she recently texted me a picture of her new wedding ring and her new fiance. How nutty can two people be if they’re getting married after knowing each other for a few weeks. I told her I never want to hear from her again. And I mean it. No more crazies. I’ve paid my dues. I’ve had enough nonsense.
I’m getting better at spotting them sooner and learning how to walk away with my dignity somewhat intact.
I think, for me, I know progress is being made because instead of years, I now only let it go on for a few weeks. I’m hoping to become such a pro at spotting them – that the first date will tell me all I need to know.
I’m so glad I’m not the only one who’s a moving target for narcissists. The women are every bit as bad as the men. Maybe worse because they insist on staying in touch.
Does Natalie have some feature where commenters can contact each other? You are hilarious!
“But the blessing has been my revulsion toward the kind of people and/or relationships I used to think were normal.”
That’s a healthy sign. I’m way happier alone, too.
Natalie, you are spot on in your analysis. Thanks for shining a bright light on what can happen when one ends up dating and being greatly impacted by a smooth operator.
After a fledgling relationship ended a few weeks ago, this is the closest thing I can find to my experience, which I’ve still been finding myself trying to figure out.
After six weeks of dating a great guy, I actually thought we had all of the ingredients for a healthy relationship. It was moving at a great pace- as in not too fast and not too slow, we were fun and comfortable around each other, there was no drama and it was a great 6 weeks of getting to know this person..he suddenly TEXTED me saying that a girl he used to date was coming to town and it wouldn’t be right for us to keep seeing each other.
To say I was shocked is an understatement. But I have no hard feelings looking back, other than we way he handled the ending of our relationship.. In a text. I didn’t find home controlling, and I didn’t lose myself. It was really healthy. We weren’t exclusive, and at the first sign of me bringing up any conversation of what was ‘happening’ with us, he broke it off the next day. He said he didn’t think we would get as close as we did.
Isn’t this fair enough? I feel a bit duped looking back, but I think he was genuine.. A genuine guy who got himself in too deep with someone he also liked, even while possibly knowing all along that this girl would be arriving.
I have to tell myself that I deserve to be happy, and someone who recognises my value will eventually come along.. But I am struggling to keep my self esteem in tact in the face of this ending with what seemed like a healthy relationship with a great guy, who was maybe image controlling a little bit but I didn’t lose myself… I felt exactly like myself and he accepted it.
Your thoughts?
Jade, As much as I know this is a disappointment for you, there is much in your post that you should feel good about – it really sounds like you did everything right and it’s a testament to how healthy you are that you seem only disappointed and not devastated. This seems like intact self esteem to me! And in my opinion, you dodged a bullet – a guy who texts someone to break up is both a coward and a creep. No matter how fun and charming he seemed, his immaturity in this matter should be a deal breaker. “Great” guys don’t do this. Yes, if you weren’t exclusive he has the right to back out and change his mind, and even choose someone else – but he needs to do it in a way that shows respect for you. In a way it’s a blessing this happened now, before you got in even deeper.
So be kind to yourself and give yourself a much deserved pat on the back for not losing yourself. Focus on what you’ve learned from this experience, which I’m sure will help you when someone who truly deserves you comes along.
Words of wisdom from Wiser. It’s scary how common breaking up through text is becoming…I understand after 1-3 dates, when your still testing the waters, but anything past that deserves a face to face conversation (or a phone call at the very least)!
To Jade, I completely understand the feeling of being duped. You thought he was someone else, I’m guessing he future faked or at least gave you hope that things were going somewhere. Then he drops a bomb on you, those rose colored glasses come off and your left trying to figure out how you ever fell for his shenanigans. Just remember the text breakup is in no way a reflection of you or your worth, it’s all about him. He was too cowardly to give you that face to face conversation you deserved, he was scared, just like he was scared to commit.
Like the others have said, he’s allowed to change his mind about the relationship and what he wants. What is not acceptable is to treat you in a way that is insincere, and disrespectful. I agree, you dodged a bullet, he sounds conflict avoidant and emotionally unavailable. This experience will only make you stronger and wiser, and you’ll be better prepared for when you do meet a man who is willing to commit.
Jade, you are living powerfully. I love it. Yeah, your guy blindsided you but he did not kill your self-esteem. I know you are shaking your head at his about-face, because he did make a U-turn, at the first sign of you trying to put a label on “what is happening”.
I think he just is trying to maintain the status quo, friendly fun but not an official “relationship”, and there is nothing wrong with that. You said you two weren’t exclusive. And until both people agree they are “in” a relationship, it is never good to assume anything.
Your strength is telling you that there is no reason to turn this into some kind of major blow to your self-esteem.
I agree…well said.
Hi Jade,
Good attitude and way to handle the disappointment. BUT I don’t believe that his TEXT was being genuine. If you weren’t exclusive, and she was just visiting, why is it over? That was an EU opt out, and not genuine. BUT when someone opts out, ACCEPTING that for what it is means YOU are healthy, like you said. He didn’t mean to get close with you? No idea how THAT could happen.
Jade,
My suspicion was that he was seeing this young lady at the same time he was seeing you. It doesn’t matter if you are exclusive with a person or not, that doesn’t give them the right to waste your time. If you want to date multiple people, then let me know upfront. There is no way you can development a relationship if one person is seeing two people at the same time. People kill me when they try to justify their dishonesty using we are not exclusive to let themselves off the hook! The fact is if you two were not exclusive then he should have told you he was dating other people upfront then you could have decided if you wanted to deal with him anyway. Nice of him to tell you a month later instead of telling you in the first place!
Jade,
In the past, I’ve deemed a guy a “great guy” too fast! So, I picked up on your term “great guy.”
I think a guy could just be a “guy” after only six weeks of dating. That’s only a month and a half, about forty-five days.
@Jade, I wonder also at him saying this right after the ‘where is it going’ conversation. There are a number of possibilities. He was fooling around with you, and this girl is his real girlfriend (not a date but a real relationship where when she visits he can’t be with others). In that case he lied to you and you’re well rid of him. OR the whole thing is made up. That is, thats the best he could come up with whereas really he feels EU, met someone else, felt it had run its course and was just waiting for a reason etc.
I think it would have been classier for him to just say ‘its not working, I dont want to go further’. I personally dont like this ‘you know, like, theres this, like other girl, she’s visiting, and you and me, like, its going to get messy’. I mean this is not high school. That whole ‘other girl’ story has a bit of the ‘dog ate my homework’ about it.
AND you are handling it really well. Impressively well. Dont contact him, and dont reply if he contacts you. He’s not a stand-up guy.
Suki, I had the same thoughts. Either this other girl is non-existent OR she always existed and thinks he is her property and he was just killing time until she came back from where-ever.
Jade, you have every right to feel nonplussed. To feel “WTF?” He was a faker and I am so glad to see you are able to let him go without a bunch of angst.
Thanks guys – all great insights!
I too had wondered if this girl was just an excuse.
I think the hard part to swallow is that whether he just changed his mind, was unavailable or really digs this girl and wants a go with her (well..then it always sucks to have someone choose a ‘better’ option over you) is wondering what was or wasn’t sincere. When you think you’ve found someone where you have a mutual attraction and enjoy each others company and there is reason to believe it is going somewhere..and then it’s not. Wondering if it was all BS the whole time OR wondering if maybe he did like me but he just likes this girl (if she exists) that bit better…both shitty options! I’m trying to handling it as well as I can, so thanks guys! The notion of someone deciding that, even before they know you as a person, they’ve suddenly seen enough and have made the decision that you’re not worth their time to keep getting to know, or keep around in their life..is hard. I don’t like this part of dating!
But you’ve all made a great point..regardless, possible insincerity along the way and the way he handled it at the end was not what I want in a partner anyway.
I’m going to play devil’s advocate here, but I don’t actually see that this guy did anything wrong. A 6 week “relationship” is not a relationship – you are only just starting to get to know the other person and either or both of you are well within your rights to decide not to continue. It is natural for the guy to be dating/sleeping with other people at this stage unless he specifically says he wants to be exclusive. And you should be dating other people at that stage as well so you don’t get overly hung up and clingy/needy for one single person so soon before you even know them. The poor guy probably freaked out at getting the “relationship talk” after only 6 weeks – I know I would and I’m female.
As for choosing another girl whom he used to date over you – well better he let you know in some form rather than keep you hanging on a string ad infinitum while getting your hopes up.
To be honest, your experience is a perfectly normal dating scenario that you built up in your imagination to be a committed relationship.
I really recommend you read the Tao of Dating by Ali Benazir and visit his blog – it is great for building self esteem and understanding the whole men/dating process from a guy’s point of view.
Poppy – ? Really Poppy? Date one person you clearly fancy and who fancies you AND dating others romantically at the same time in order to find a fully committed partner? And this works for you so far? Perhaps there are different dating styles or a meaning of language anomaly or perhaps I don’t date right?
To clarify – I can’t speak for anyone else but I can speak from my own experience – I have a clear distinction between going out with friends and dating romantically. I GO OUT with male/female FRIENDS (and I DO NOT consider them dates).
Friends may turn into a romantic partner after clear communication that, that is what is happening, at which point I understand that we are now dating. I consider dating someone romantically ie who I fancy and clearly fancies me to be very different to going out with friends and I ask if it is not clear to me. This is perhaps why I have never had to have an ‘are we exclusive’ conversation – Up front I know when we are and I have clarified it with the other person and I have never dated someone who is committed (dating, married) to another person.
Yes, once dating, I expect exclusivity from the start – even if they were a stranger to me previously – and if it isn’t there up front – it is a red flag and I am off at the first show of it because I know it would not work for me and I would not waste anymore of their or my time.
My aim in life is not to have dates but to have meaningful relationships with others and myself and to avoid anything other like the plague.
My concern here for Jade – like yourself – is that she may be hooked on a man – who isn’t hooked on her – at a fairly early point for myself.
Being not hooked on men in future by dating others at the same time – will help her with avoiding that hurt/pain completely because she won’t be mentally/emotionally entering into ANY relationships but it won’t help her enter MEANINGFUL relationships – that she should be – by simply validating herself and her own self esteem INDEPENDENTLY from dating…
For example, being BUSY with her own life and happy enough not to notice him not being there at such an early point and able to wish him well – recognising he does not forfill HER own values/needs and KNOWING that she recognises that he is not for HER and therefore not worth a hair on her head and that the experience is NOT linked to her self worth and KNOWING she did well to get rid of him early with such a lax low level of commitment to people as he has shown etc…
“My concern here for Jade – like yourself – is that she may be hooked on a man – who isn’t hooked on her – at a fairly early point for myself”.
Yes exactly! Jade’s post read to me that after a mere 6 dates she had it fixed in her mind that they were in an exclusive relationship when clearly in his mind, they were not.
It doesn’t matter how much a guy seems to fancy you,or how much you fancy him – if he hasn’t claimed you as his girlfriend, you are not, and he is well within his rights, as are you, to decide to end the “relationship” to see someone else who is a better fit. It doesn’t mean you are a bad person, or unworthy – it simply means you are not suited to each other. Surely you have dated a man for a period of weeks and decided he wasn’t the one, and ended it? I know I have. Do you all really expect a man to keep dating someone he’s not into just to avoid hurting her feelings?
By dating more than one person (not necessarily sleeping with them if that’s not what you want) you are minimising the chance of getting too hooked on seeing a guy as “the one” before he has decided he wants to be exclusive. Plus, you are meeting many other men beside him who may be a better fit for you, instead of just putting all your eggs in one basket then getting disappointed when it doesn’t work out.
Poppy, there’s something about your comment that keeps bothering me. I think breaking up by text and using another woman as an excuse was tacky. I wouldn’t give the guy a lot of credit for “at least” breaking up in some way. Yes, people can date/sleep around with many persons at the same time but it does not mean everyone needs to do that.
I also don’t like the “relationship talk” concept. While dating, one should be able to ask where’s this going or how the other feels, a simple question. It is not necessarily an interrogation and everyone should be entitled to ask it when they want to. What’s the point here, Jade should have just waited out some more? One week? Two weeks? Until the guy talks about it? I think it’s only good Jade brought up the topic herself. She knows the situation now and can move on. If the guy freaked out, fine. Obviously not a match made in heaven.
Also on understanding dating from a guy’s point of view – why bother? There are a lot of women on this site that have spent so much time analyzing what the guy said, did or meant that they’ve forgot themselves, their needs and wants in the process. If the guy is not showing trust, care, commitment or other qualities I’m looking for in a man, I’m not going to win anything by writing off his actions as a standard-guy-dating-approach. He’s simply not for me.
Sorry if I’m sounding harsh here, not meaning to offend in any way and maybe I over-interpreted some things but just wanted to comment.
I’ve just read these and wanted to clarify, as I feel, Poppy, like I was entirely healthy and not clingy or needy and in fact, I didn’t even bring up a Relationship or Exclusivity talk! What ACTUALLY happened, was that we were talking about suburbs around the area we both live/work in as I was looking for a new house. I mentioned there was a good one near him which was great for me but I said I wouldn’t want to live that close to him. The whole conversation was light-hearted and in a joking manner, I joked that I wouldn’t want to move too close to him ‘in case something went sour with us. The next day he broke it off. And by It, I don’t mean our Relationship, because we weren’t in one. We were dating, in a way where there was mutual interest but we were taking it slow and we had asked if each other were going on other dates, we both were not – still, not a relationship.
My take is that by me saying that I was worried about things going sour and potentially ending up stuck living near this person, he realised I did have feelings for him and would be hurt if our dating came to an end. I think, knowing this girl was arriving, he decided it was best to end it there before it went further.
I can also give you all an unpleasant update. I didn’t move to the same suburb after all, however, by complete miracle given our social circles etc, I happened to see this guy on the bus last night – the first time I’ve taken a bus since I’ve lived in this city (3 years) and to a suburb I rarely visit, where another friend had just moved. We had a sufficiently awkward conversation the entire way to our destination – we were going to the same street- where he acted as though nothing had happened although I could sense he was uncomfortable – this is especially considering I had messaged him a few weeks after we broke it off, just to say hi as I figured we’d ended on good terms, and he completely fobbed me off. I even ended that communication by apologising for contacting him and I received to response.
SO, after trying to act like I wasn’t bothered (I was never bothered by the fact that he broke it off. It was How, and his subsequent behaviour), we hopped off the bus together and he made up an excuse to walk a different route to the same street we were both headed to.
I now feel confident that while he may have been interested in me all along, and he may well be a very nice and well meaning person, his lack of tact and maturity in enduring any type of uncomfortable intimate conversation, is what leaves him to seem like a not-so-nice guy. Like someone said earlier, completely conflict avoidant, which as it turns out is where the conflict is made.
Did I miss something? Your story has changed–a lot.
*questioning your honesty*
Rita, my story did not change. I origionally said – 6 weeks of dating (if it makes you feel any better, I did used the term ‘fledgling relationship’ my bad). And he broke it off at 6 weeks because a girl he used to date was coming to town (he and this girl are not from Australia, where I am writing this from) in a text.
I hadn’t seen him for a month until I bumped into him by complete coincidence yesterday and found out more information about this girl during our chat, ie, the fact that she’s only here for one month visiting.
I simple offered my own thoughts on what I suspect were his intentions and thinking behind is behaviour within our 6 weeks of interaction. The facts are still the same.
Jade
Why were you in your own words ‘ACTING not bothered’? isn’t that conflict avoidant??? And also emotionally not a mature way to behave? – I’m not saying jump down his throat with your feelings but don’t your true feelings deserve to be present in how you act in life also?
When someone has in my mind broken up with me or rejected me – which may be completely unlike you – it is a while before I can be around them and be my happy accepting self – because of the rejection – it hurts if I liked or was interested in them – and is nothing to hide – even if seeing them on the bus unexpectedly – rather than pretending ANYTHING – I may nod a hello but I will sit elsewhere – unless there is really no other seat available and even then I would not be talking to him like there was nothing wrong, and I was fine with everything.
It is not rude – it is YOUR needs and YOUR protection – your essential perception/mirror of his behaviour – back to him – and without it HE CAN’T have a real conversation with you – ever.
If you are worried about it looking bad to him then you are putting HIS needs above your own and not being real.
Yes it won’t feel nice bumping into him or him bumping into you – because you are hurting from a relationship that didn’t perform to YOUR expectations – what ever they may be.
Acknowledge what feelings you actually have and stay away from him to protect yourself – even on a bus. That way you get some time and space to heal and don’t lose your integrity by pretending anything. That would make anyone feel uncomfortable.
Look at your own behaviour not his – he won’t get you what you are looking for – I guarantee it.
Thanks Oona, I did walk away from this feeling like I hadn’t voiced what I wanted to. I’m fine with having sat next to him and chatted, it was the situation and surroundings (ie surrounded by strangers in public) that made it hard to negotiate what to say. I’m not bitter about it, he wasn’t nasty or mean spirited to me, just a tad rude, but it wasn’t the appropriate time or place to launch into how I felt. I also had no idea what to say as I was in shock, and I’m not going to beat myself up for what I did and didn’t say in a sticky situation. But thanks for your comments. I think I’ve got as much out of this as I can for now.
Also, the topic of us and this girl did briefly come up. I brushed it off and said it was all ‘fine’ and we don’t need to worry about it because we actually don’t. He’s not interested in continuing to see me, and he told me that. Nothing more to discuss, and he doesn’t need to explain himself to me.
What I came here for was advice on how to understand these situations (since my first on/off boyfriend of 7 years ended last year, this is my first experience in dating that felt like it was going somewhere) and how to move on from this confusing situation without feeling too rejected and with enough self esteem intact that I can go out there and start again.
Jade, i agree with Oona that it is for your protection to avoid him. So if you see him around again, nod, but dont engage. That said – stop thinking about him. Seriously. You’re looking for trouble now. I found myself doing this too – it was almost like I wanted to blame myself. I wanted to make things seem even worse. So you sent him a goddamn text. Since when is that not allowed? So things were a bit awkward when you bumped into him? So what? Life gets awkward sometimes. Dont make mountains where molehills suffice. Not even molehills. Dust motes. All is fine. There is no blame needed – not on you, not on him. Maybe you were the best suited soul mates ever and this one thing ruined it – wait, thats not possible. If you were, you’d have known it, and this guy wouldn’t have been thrown astray by one comment from you or by a girl visiting for a month. So thats not what happened. You were not suited. Thats what really happened. Process and grieve that aspect because it does hurt to lose someone and our hopes. But dont think that there was anything that could be done differently. Grieve, but dont regret. It is all good what happened. It is what life is about. People come and go. And some stay. So look forward to the other great people you will meet in life as lukewarm guy is gone.
Oona, almost everyone has endured an uncomfortable situation of running into an “ex” a time or two…and they may not have the perfectly scripted dialogue or behavior. I imagine Jade was trying to keep things light, not let the rejection dominate all future encounters.
Jade, the guy really has not done anything terrible, he simply reacts like a guy who is afraid of being stalked by someone he rejects. I remember getting on a train and running into a guy who did stalk me, it was over a year later, and the last thing I wanted to do was have a conversation. I also remember running into a guy who I liked more than he liked me, he rejected me, it was again over a year later when I saw him in a club chatting up a woman, and after she walked away I went over to him and said “Hi”..and I could see he was not interested in talking to me even for a casual “hello”. So…just saying..the reaction to those “run-in” experiences are hard to predict.
Thanks Elgie. Given he’d said we’d ‘hopefully talk soon’ when he broke it off, I figured it wouldn’t do much harm to say hello a after a few weeks of not talking. He fobbed me off, which was not nice but not the end of the world.
Running into him was probably equally uncomfortable for us both.
I don’t really agree with your comment on him being afraid of a jilted date stalking him – maybe a bad analogy but I get the sentiment. There are many men AND women in the world who don’t have the emotional intelligence to choose and communicate a set of well-curated, polite sentences to express themselves. Instead, they act like this guy (and many other guys).
Jade,
This guy doesn’t want to date you anymore, that’s all there is to it. All this other stuff you and everyone else here is coming up with is pure speculation.
Stop contacting him. He doesn’t want to be bothered.
Take care of yourself. Go do something nice for yourself. He’s not that special. He’s just some dude.
Yep Red lipsticked – I repeat – focus on yourself.
I hope this helps. Unless I have had sexual contact–all 4 bases–I don’t consider anyone I may be dating a girlfriend. HOWEVER,once those four bases have been touched I am in a committed relationship, and since we will discuss it before we do it, she will also be in a committed relationship.
Recreational sex used to be so much fun, but as I have evolved I know now sex requires love, committment and a strong spiritual bond. That takes time to develop.
Yep Elgie – thanks for noting my perfect script but its obvious to everyone life isn’t a script and shows clearly in my history – I am giving Jade another choice to bear in mind, should it strike a note in her and the situation arise again – do you have a problem with that?
Thanks for your feedback Evvie,
The whole “text” thing honestly doesn’t bother me at all, and I don’t see why it is such a big deal? It is just another way of communicating. At least the guy told her in some way he didn’t want to see her anymore and didn’t just disappear into the ether leaving her wondering if he has died in a car crash or whatever as some guys do.
I don’t think the other woman was an excuse at all. He may genuinely want a relationship with this old friend of his, and he has every right to. Until he says he is not seeing anyone else and asks her to be his girlfriend she shouldn’t assume their relationship is exclusive. Even if there was no other woman, he clearly has decided that he and she are not a good fit – for whatever reason. It doesn’t mean she is a bad person it simply means it isn’t meant to be.
I personally think that women these days chase way too much at the beginning – just step back and let the man do the work, let him persue and let him lead. The only jobs we women have is to either say yes or no when he asks us out and to determine for ourselves if he is a guy we want to keep seeing or not by asking pertinent questions and being very vigilant to his actions. If you feel you need to ask the question of where the relationship is going, it is clearly not going anywhere IMO and you need to step back and let him figure it out while you enjoy a nice dinner with Man #2.
Maybe I’m just too blase about it all but I sure don’t lose any sleep at night since I stopped chasing guys, stopped initiating relationship talks and stopped over-analysing every move they make.
There are a ton of psychology, dating and relationship books out there and it would be beneficial for anyone who wishes to be in a healthy relationship to read them and try to learn how men think, because sure as heck they don’t think the same way about relationships as we do at all.
There is no one monolithic “how men think”. Once again, you can’t properly relate to someone if you just think of them as a cardboard stereotype. Quit looking at the stereotype and LOOK AT THEM.
…Yeah, you’ve got a ways to go before dispensing the advice. If you’ve got some good stuff going on right now romance-wise, good for you, but it’s easy to think you’re doing it right if nothing’s gone wrong yet. And even if you ARE doing everything right it doesn’t mean he won’t choose to do something wrong later. You can only control yourself. There are no secrets here.
There is no way you are ever going to spend enough time with a person to really know whether you want to be exclusive with them if you’ve got 5 other people on your string-along. You barely have time for dating as it is if you’ve got a full-time job and hobbies and friends and family obligations and perhaps kids (which goes under family obligations but takes up even more of your time). You will be lucky to remember everyone’s birthdays, much less keep them straight. Multiple simultaneous relationships are a recipe for shallow connections. If all you want is sex and light friendship then that’s fine but it shouldn’t be the standard for EVERYONE dating, because most of us at least think we are looking for a deeper conection.
And anyone who uses “Tao” in a book title is automatically suspect. It’s dating, not Chinese spirituality.
Extremely relatable! Why must it take so long to see a charming person negatively even once the evidence starts showing up? I’d love to hear how to speed up that process. When they come across as a good person it makes it easy to think we were the ones to fail. When I try to change that initial opinion of them, part of me still wonders how fairly I’m judging things.
It’s a shame it also takes time to see who someone really is because the longer it takes the harder it is to deal with. At the same time I don’t want to be so guarded that I can’t be emotionally available while I’m waiting to see if they do a U-turn. Ugh.
When you interact with these kind of people after trying to move on (but you see them around) how should you behave around them? You mention that if you get upset they put the blame on you. I noticed that too so I try to just act like it’s no big deal but it sounds like that only makes them feel ok with how they’ve been acting.
Yeah…I guess it is difficult to trust again and always be..steady and calm and try not to move too quickly at the beginning and thus become unavailable. I think I did read a post about how if they get scared and run when you try to discuss what’s happening (which doesn’t mean to say you make demands, but just try to maybe check mutual understanding), that’s a sign as well. And in all honesty, I thought so too. Until talking to …all of these “ok” people of today sort of made me alter my perspective and not necessarily in a good way. [By “OK” people I mean the sort of people that I seem to see an increase of, who have decided the world is complicated and they need to look after their own selves first, and they don’t owe anything to the world or others especially at the beginnings of anything, and everything is fine and dandy and no one should be held accountable ever – basically because “things happen” and “life is the way it is, and complicated” -it’s like a vicious circle] So these people made me believe then..for a very long time, that I was too direct, too upfront, too quick to ask or want or judge or whatever. Fair point, to some extent, as I am sometimes like that. Still, years have gone past and I’ve become more mature, so I thought it’s mature to have honest conversations that are not threatening or pushy or needy, to understand what goes on. Especially for women it’s sometimes important not to waste your time… But it seems the world has not caught up with this idea that IT IS OK to sometimes want to know.. anything simple…after all you’re dating = you open yourself up to the question of possibly this turning into something else! I mean come on… Are we always supposed to sit back and wait until the dude plucks up the courage to say something? Yes, no, maybe, definitely no, whatever… It’s like…the “modern trend”- I call it- is that at the beginning oooh let’s stay away from any serious topic. Really? Why? Not to mention that now it;s so difficult to figure out how long is too long (and get hurt like you said by spotting things/reactions too late) and how quick is too quick. Because let’s face it, some guys out there have ABSOLUTELY different ideas on the WHEN to have the talk. I don’ know too much about the current state of the dating world as I’ve just been healing from being with a Peter Pan narcissist (not 100% but still..oh my) for two and a half years, but I know enough from friends and my own past experience and the people around me being so so confused about dating… Us women, maybe even some men..we want honesty, because we know what we want when we realise what healthy is and what we should be seeking, but it’s so hard to find someone out there that’s not full of BS, hat we end up so so so insecure and second guess everything we say/how we say it/the timing of when we said it. But you know what…yes it’s the beginning, but ladies, if we ask or open a mature, non aggressive, non demanding CONVERSATION about what’s happening to this beggining of a thing, and the dude freeezes, then let’s let them. Jade, you are nice, you try to stay lovely and healthy it seems, and yes, a text is crap, let’s just put it bluntly. And no, excuses are not nice (someone’s visiting, this is happening, bla- could be or could not be true). Six weeks is very little indeed, but if you were natural and asked something because you wanted to decide what you wanted to do next as it is your life, he at least could’ve dignified it with a mature normal answer. Just like you proceeded. It’s cowardly and yes it does make you bitter a little bit, for the next one. It chips off some of the confidence that if you treat someone well they will reciprocate and recognise a genuinely normal person…with normal feelings. I notice you’re trying to be nice, and say he seemed genuine.but I don’t think that’s the case. But in any case, I don’t think it matters, he doesn’t matter in a way. Whatever the reasons it’s clear you were not dealing with someone with the same healthy habits as you. I hope you are ok and please…allow yourself to sometimes realise that yes it hurts even after 6 weeks, because we all like to hope people are nice and have by now, like us, learnt enough from their life experiences to behave differently at their age. Good luck out there in the dating world but seriosuly I think we’d all like to meet the people who don’t run scared like little boys when A CONVERSATION takes place, be in comfortable for them or not. And yes it will always sting us, and it’s allowed, for a bit. But then we have to go back to what we now better.
And Heretogrow, I was trying to make a point but I always talk too much and forget 🙂 Yes, it’s difficult to spot the bad in the first instances because some people are sooooo good at being good. I guess we have to jump in the pool and let things happen, and make mistakes with them (we all seem to want to be very good and nice and warm-enogh-but-not-too-close-to-scare-them), because that’s when you see their reactions, that’s when your insincts kick in. That was my way of doing it before..but when I had problems and my self esteem got sooo low, I got sucked back into believing in the distances and boundaries they were imposing – I never knew normal and mature , so I thought, and I was such a needy, so how could I know what’s normal and mature right? :). I know better now, but not dating and it will be scary out there when/if I decide to test out my ideas and theories… I’ve been ..sitting on the bench for a while. I’d like to think there’s a NATURAL way of doing things, but I don’t know if I know it. I do believe in instincts, especially after you’ve made sure your actions are ok and natural and so to say healthy.
As for being around the people who have proven to be less than nice, I think it’s probably very hard, and I’d like to think it’s worth telling them something short and sweet on a mature, self-respecting voice, when there is a chance. Nothing too much, but to let them know what they do is fairly immature and disrespectful. If you can’t…I’d keep my distance a bit, speak to others and maybe to them too if you can’t avoid it.. but treat them like plain aquaintances who don’t get much more than a question or two – same as you’d ask your freinds’ distant relatives 🙂 I used to care so much about what you said..that it would look like ethey were right in a way and justified in whatever they did. Or about what others would say. I still do to som extent but it’s been getting better, so now I try to focus on giving myself some respect and not them (obviously in direct . They need to understand there are some consequences to the “life is complicated/things happen/everything’s ok, no real harm done” attitude. Whoever wants to be in their set of approvalists (made it up), without investigating or knowing too much (including close friends), they should go ahead too and think whatever they want. I guess we can’t please everyone and it’s tough to stand tall and not feel dreadful at times, but we must not condone their behaviour by smiling when we’ve been disrespected for no good reasons. Yes “life is complicated/things happen” but in some situations it really isn’t that hard to be a grown up and step up to the plate.
Oh Gosh I don’t know if I’m making any sense.. 🙂
Yes you are making sense and I agree with a lot of what you say.
We are not wrong to want people to be accountable for their actions, but unfortunately many people are not and never will hold their hands up.
It is up to us – the people who are willing – to acknowledge what has been done, trust ourselves and our instincts to know it was wrong and address it respectfully, and/or walk away.
The more we know ourselves and the more willing we are to share that self with others, the clearer it will become who deserves our time.
Yes “life is complicated/things happen”
But why make it more complicated and create chaos?
Say Something.. What can I say? I don’t know why complicate things and create chaos. We let ourselves be dragged into their chaos sometimes – because we lie to ourselves, because we want to believe, because we don’t trust our instincs and boundaries. I know my share of blame in some things, and I too know life is complicated, things happen etc – but in my case I could not take that lame excuse as an explanation really. I realised there was more under it. Like Natalie said somewhere..he had long abandoned the ship so of course he did not care anymore. Only thing is I had noticed and deep down inside I admit I knew that he did not like to be held accountable, or apologise, even for little normal obvious things – where ok individuals would have. So that was my bad – in the end for him it was just an excuse for not having bothered to bring up things before. Whatever his reasons, in my case I’ve made my peace because I realised what I had created in my mind and who he really was so I didn’t want him back, not that he was trying to come back, but he still wanted to be friends – I told him off in a few upset words – some of them I’m not proud of 🙂 , a few short sentences and I really meant them. I had nothing to learn from him, he’d treated me inconsiderately and quite..obviously, and wanted to save image I guess. I don’t even care. Truth be told I didn’t want him back in my life in any shape, thus silently ok-ing him for his behaviour at his age. Sorry, I’ve started telling my story and moved away from the topic somewhat. I guess I like to articulate what I feel and can’t explain to some of my friends (I’d have to explain to them the many enlightening truths I found on this amazing site – and they’re too many 🙂 )
Hope I got the idea of your question right.
Hi Ro,
I think a huge part of being accountable is attitude. There is a huge difference between “life is complicated” and “I passive-aggressively CHOOSE to make life complicated. And I’ll never admit it.”
And I think saying what you mean and meaning what you say in the name of honesty and integrity holds value. Being direct while maintaining a thoughtful and considerate approach will always reflect strong character. Manipulating and avoiding through lies and inaction result in harm to others. And some people choose manipulation to preserve an image because sometimes it’s easier to be selfish, plow through life, and never look back. People don’t want to deal with feelings- their own or someone else’s because escape is the easy opt out. There’s a payoff. To them. Shiny, pretty, clean, nice image. It’s just not the one we’re willing to invest in.
True… I feel the same on many occassions – but on the other hand perhaps we sometimes hold ourselves too accountable for things and strive to be too “nice”. In some cases int’s just Ok to let go of whoever wnats to be ..let go of. It’s harder said than done and I’m the first to admit that. sometimes we’ll fall, we’ll make mistakes, sometimes we’ll be better. It’s all a rollercoaster but yes after a certain age I do expect myself to be a bit more aware of my actions and improve my own actions and reactions, and especially when it comes to people who care or claim to care about you, I wish they’d do the same. There are people like that – and there arre some who never really will – and I do try explain sometimes that it;s not quite in agreement with what they claim to be , but then sometimes I give up and just let them carry on as it’s not really my place to make someone understand what they’re doing wrong in my opinion.. Sometimes though it hurts a lot especially when you expected some actions consistent with the word. But once the hurt is gone, and the claw clasping your heart lessening its strength, you count your blessing, count your mistakes, and just ..accept it -the indiference sets in. Also, when I lose respect for someone who was close I find it easier not to want them around me anymore or care what they say/think…
Hi, Ro. I enjoyed your post . You said : “Now I try to focus on giving myself respect and not them.”
I so agree with that. That is a newly learned behavior for me and it is very liberating. I no longer go into situations thinking about how to make life better for the other person “first”. Not saying I’ve become mean and uncaring, It’s more like I put myself first a lot more often than I used to. I allow myself to put myself first.
You also said: “They need to understand there are some consequences to the “life is complicated/things happen/everything’s ok, no real harm done” attitude.”
Yes, I agree, so NO, I am not going to treat your poor treatment of me like “water under the bridge”. I will keep my distance. I will not smile and act nice and try to return to the attitude I had in the days before you treated me poorly. It’s not holding a grudge. It’s consequences.
Yes, yeas, yes, Elgie R., and I will add that I will no longer guilt myself over putting myself first.
Elgie, YES to the frigging yes. I am yet at a stage that when I hear people say “life’s complicated” or any of that fortune cookie wisdom after having treated me poorly or as a way to rationalize their shitty behavior, I want to punch them in the face. But I am slowly moving towards total cold contempt aka not wasting a second of my time on this person who has hurt me. Regardless of the reasons.
Also, no more coming up with reasons for their shitty reasons. It’s not automatic yet but this is my goal.
Why,
The ex used to say (in the first month of dating, should have been a red flag but it didn’t register with me back then. I thought he was trying to sound wise and jaded) that “people eventually lose feelings for each other, they break up, love goes away, and that’s life. Sorry.” Little did I know I would hear the same words said to me a year after:)
Listen to what they say in the first few weeks! They speak their agenda up front without even realizing it themselves!
Sophia this is brilliant – sounds like something I know – on one of first meetings with my now ex, then soon-to-be-bf of 2 1/2 yrs said something relating to his friends’ divorce and while I was contemplating and expressing the pain of it all and how sad it must have been, he had a big smirk on his face and casually chatted away, said something really mean about her (the rejected one) – although apparently she was an amazing friend of his!!as was the guy, who had apparently grown a pair of b**** and this and that – no sign of empathy on his face for -not her or him, but at least for the situation or the fact that I seemed a bit saddened by it all (like you would when you hear of someone, ANYONE being dumped while they’re still very in love – his lady friend that is).
And that was not the only occurrence, others were soon to follow – so my mistake, my very big mistake for believing his explanations of his reactions all the time (i.e. lying to myself, making up this pretty picture), instead of believing his reactions, his actions. Yup..
Why – You put it so well :))) Fortune cookie stuff, yes that’s what it is…
My favourite one is “we need to treasure what we had” . I moved to contempt the moment I read about narcissistic behaviour, codependency, and found out some of the stuff that had really been going on.
Elgie, that is right. And you know, when I mean consequences, I sort of know that perhaps they won’t understand and they’ll find another reason for my “unpleasant, distant” – I don’t know hoe the other side would put it- behaviour. And friends aquaintances whoever..they can see it and judge it accourindg to their own ideas/beliefs. But saying consequences I realise I mean consequences in the relationship post breaking up/parting ways between two lovers/dating people. It’s a way of telling the other the extent to which they have been disingenuous -to put it mildly. I’m saying no to the second “chance” to be disrespected and this time by myself by allowing them back in. Yes in my silly ways I sometimes wish the whole world would find out the truth -i.e. “my truth”- and this and that, so that his family friends colleagues will say oooh no he didn’t ?really? we didn’t know! 🙂 But I realise this is my truth and we’re all allowed to tell our truth to the people in our lives. I just couldn’t get it through my head at the time and it was eating me up inside (need to remember what I’ve learned for next time 🙂 ). Luckily now it’s..fine and we shouldn’t run into each other/or me into his friends but should this happen I hope I can maintain the calm and peace I seem to feel now.
It’s not water under the bridge – like you put it- in the sense that oh well no harm done like they’d like to tell themselves, but it’s going to be water under the bridge in the sense that what we will not return to that bridge or that water or that view because we didn’t like it and it was not OK 🙂
Thank you for your input. Maybe I’m dealing with things the best way that I can, though. I think just being cordial enough so that our mutual friends don’t feel like they are getting stuck in a dramatic situation makes things less awkward. I think Nat’s posts about how it isn’t our job to tell them about themselves might apply here. There should be consequences for bad behavior but maybe just the fact that they lost my respect and a chance with me is the result. I’m not out to inflate anyone’s ego and act like I’m a big grump just because they showed up.
Anyway, I think once my time to myself has felt like enough and I get more prepared to put myself out there I’m going to be concerned and looking to red and/or orange flags. Of course I should be paying attention to those things but I don’t want to almost be expecting to find those problems. It’s pretty exhausting every time you make yourself vulnerable, find issues, and then try to recover mentally and get back to a better emotional state. Recovering feels like a waste of time being miserable.
“It’s pretty exhausting every time you make yourself vulnerable, find issues, and then try to recover mentally and get back to a better emotional state. Recovering feels like a waste of time being miserable.”
Absolutely!! I’m way more guarded now, more selective about the company I keep, and much more assertive and I’m still getting dinged up a bit emotionally. I’m looking at the recovery period as an opportunity to heal that particular area/issue.
These people/experiences are teachers. Viewing it this way helps me to feel empowered by these situations rather than victimized by them.
You may want but cannot expect other people to be accountable for their actions when you are unaccountable for your own – ie staying with someone who makes you miserable etc…. Once you are accountable for YOUR own actions and can celebrate it – the world is your oyster.
So so good Natalie! I’ve had men do this to me and it was so frustrating and painful at the time. Not just the disappearing act, but also the compartmentalizing and trying to make me into their version of what they wanted me to be. With unavailable men, of course this has been the role of seductive mistress (with exMM). when he was waffling back to his wife, he would always make me feel This way, as if I was seducing him from a great relationship when reAlly, he was the one who had been pursuing me! So insane. But this happened over and over.
I’m so glad it’s done now because it was really wearing down myself esteem. I felt TERRIBLE about myself, for everything, but insanely enough, most especially that he thought badly of me and had cast me in this light.
For anyone in a similar situation or who is being image controlled and rejected without empathy by someone, get out! And fast!! They are not worth your time. They will nt change. One of my favorite quotes (that I have forgot at key times in my life, but should have taken to heart): “when someone shows you who they really are, believe them the first time.” So true!!
Leanne,
Yeah, I was the seductress apparently, it was all me, he even called me Mrs Robinson at the start due to the age gap…and he said he liked to call me his mistress because it sounded more dirty and exciting. He was the holier than though good old family man who never had an impure thought before I came along. Self-deception in the extreme.
Hi Oona,
How does Natalie know what I was talking about just yesterday?
Anyhow, in response to your comment from Natalie’s last post, and connecting to this post on future fakers who then try to fake out even “the end”…
I can’t speak for Sofia, but we do appear to have had many similarities in our stories and reactions. Hopefully we will both learn, cope, heal.
Thank you for your thoughts, which I partially agree and partially disagree with. I DID have that “warm cup of coffee, comfortable on the couch, welcome to the day” kind of feeling” with him. And I thought it was mutual. I never thought he was perfect or flawless. I accepted him for the person he showed me that he was. I did not feel hesitant, jealous, worried, unclear, or unsure. I genuinely cared about, respected, trusted, and eventually fell in love with the person he presented himself to be. Until the end.
In the end I didn’t recognize him. I’d never heard him speak in such a cold, removed tone of voice. EVER. I was scared and became emotionally/ psychologically intimidated by him. Months later I wondered if he was a sociopath. But then I decided that if I was mistaken about that, there would have to be something so wrong with me to even think it.
And in the end, he definitely channeled his impression management skills aka “let me nicely eff you over@. I pointed out to him in a letter, during my break in NC last year, that he was saying nice things to make HIMSELF feel better. He responded by denying that, and claimed that he said all these nice things because they’re true. I was SO wonderful, great, blah blah, yada yada, but not worth an honest conversation, only dismissal via electronic communication. “Sorry. Too heavy.”
So here’s to impression management and the greatest poker-face EU ever.
On TLW (the last weekend) after messing with my mind, then having sex with me, and then telling me again that I live too far away (his fake reason to bail), I sat up in his bed and said out loud, “I feel like I shouldn’t be here”.
He responds “are you fuming mad?” in his caaaalm no worries I’m totally fine and in control we just had sex but it didn’t mean anything so just shut the f-ck up go to sleep and leave me alone until I decide to have sex with you again in the morning even though I never want to see you ever again tone of voice. He then reached out for me, put his arm around me and got me to lay back down with him. He fell asleep. I stayed awake and cried. But I was good enough to have sex with ONE LAST TIME in the morning. So I (wrongly) thought he was just upset/ confused. And because I was a confused, delusional asshole that still trusted him, (can you believe it, I STILL TRUSTED HIM AND THOUGHT HE WAS THE BEST GUY EVER) I went along with it.
You are right that NOW whatever it is I’m doing is not love. It can’t be. But it WAS. For me only. Obviously. It’s now grief over the loss of him (real him/ fake him), the relationship (real/ fake?), and disappointment in everything including myself for trusting him.
Trash discarded in a pretty bag and carried nicely to the curb is still trash. if you value something, you don’t say how wonderful it is and then get rid of it. Oh, unless it’s a person. Because “nice” words wrapped around the lies seem to justify not having to be accountable for horrible actions. It means that the it’s much easier to pretend that treating people like trash is ok. But I had to stop believing the words. Nice words = BS. It was sabotage.
It reminds me of the line from Fight Club: “I felt like destroying something beautiful.”
The thing with these U-turners that is hard to accept is that for THEM it was always a game. For some reason, because it felt so real to us, we assumed they felt the same. Then when we see how easily they dropped us, for some reason we can’t disconnect what WE feel from what THEY feel. ‘I still love you, why don’t you still love me.’
It’s because these players live for the moment. At the moment that they say loving things, they really mean it in that moment. When WE say we love them, we mean it for a lifetime. But they only mean it for that moment.
The first time you experience a U-turn with a person, something inside you should go into protective mode. U-turning is a HUGE signal that your emotional well-being is in danger with this person. You should start to reign in your emotions and hopes. You should start to distance yourself. And you should immediately begin closing that person out of your emotional life. You should go into reply mode, meaning you stop making any overtures, and start picking and choosing whether to accept any invites the U-turner proffers.
Say Something, you let that guy play with you recklessly. Why did you allow that is the question. Somehow, all your self-esteem seemed to be tied up in winning his acceptance of you. You kept putting your emotions into the pot, hoping to get the big payoff of HIM. I imagine he’s good-looking, because that is an AC requirement. I don’t think TRUST is the correct word for what you had for him. He gave you no reason to “trust”. Hope, maybe. You HOPED that by accepting anything he did to you as OK that he would never leave you. Then, when he left you in a very disrespectful way, you are left with a whole bunch of anger, maybe to keep away that nagging reality that you allowed him to use you. The thing now isn’t to feel ashamed at your actions, but to ask yourself why did you allow this. Why didn’t you just walk away when he treated you badly. What made you decide his behavior was OK. Why did you try to build up your own ego with crumbs from this AC?
Elgie,
EU-turners
Yes, I WAS all in. He charmed his way into my mind. He charmed me into his bed. He charmed his way into my heart. He charmed his way into my life. And then he TRIED to charm his way out the door.
And here’s the thing. Initially, I didn’t know if I was attracted to him. Decent looking, but not someone I would have “picked” based on looks. I liked his personality (as presented), his values (as presented), his intelligence, but didn’t know right away if the physical component was there. As it turned out, yes it was. So, it was NOT a physical attraction for me at first. The more time I spent with him, the more attracted I became. And then eventually I became bonded. Not on purpose, I wasn’t “trying” or “forcing” it.
I HAD come to trust him, which is why I couldn’t comprehend how he could betray me. I was SO SURE he was the Best Guy Ever, and this belief kept me in the mindset that he was NOT out to hurt me, and his hurtful words were a temporary mistake. I was CONVINCED that he would apologize and we’d talk and together work through whatever was in his head. I thought he was on my side and by my side. I was wrong. I didn’t know it then. Thought process: (People who like me and care about won’t hurt me. He likes me and cares about me. He would never hurt me. Ever.)
Interesting, Elgie, that you use the word HOPE because I used that word repeatedly in my final written contact with him. That was all that I had left, and I concluded:
Hope is disappointing.
Hope causes suffering.
Hope feels like torture.
There is a fine line between hope and surrender.
I could not combine the two different versions of him: BGE day after day, and then E-Uturn guy at the end, whom I’d never seen before. I accepted crumbs at the end, yes. I was willing to wait for the good to return. The payoff. And yes, I allowed his decision to wreck me. It’s like I handed him my heart. And left it with him.
Say Something
Every relationship we have also teaches us something about ourselves.
When you look at this relationship dispassionately what have you learned about yourself in all this and what would you do differently in the future if you met another man?
Hi Pauline,
“IF”
Good question, and I have asked myself the same. I have learned that I DO have the capacity to care deeply about and love another person. I have also learned that “we” need to be having those oh so important conversations about the relationship itself. I have learned that someone opting out is someone opting out, whatever the reason. I have learned that I need to call attention to any inaction, and that if I receive a response other than positive, then something isn’t right and I need to take action. I also believe that I will never love someone as much (or at all)
as I did him.
Say Something, you’ve adopted a “one time in band camp” mentality about love right now, because you are still in the depths of despair over what you feel is your lost love. If you met a man you wanted to care for, who told you he will never fall in love again because some woman in his past hurt him so deeply, you’d feel gypped, wouldn’t you. So, you can’t expect to find a mutual relationship if you are starting with a closed heart. And no man should have to jump through hoops to prove his love, only to have you doubt him all the time because of your past.
But as I said, you are in the throes of despair right now. When you really begin to heal and the sun comes out again, try thinking a NEW way. Instead of wanting to fall hopelessly in love, try falling thoughtfully in love. Replace you being “careless” about your well-being with you being “prudent” about your well-being. Don’t be in such a rush to get to the finish line of “forever after” that you forget to check in with yourself, you know, ask yourself “is this making me feel good?”
Thank you, Elgie, for your insight.
I DO still feel profound sadness. And I hate it. And it’s been too long feeling this way (stuck) and I hate that too.
I didn’t even KNOW I could have ended up like this. Didn’t know I could become so attached and didn’t know I could sink so low. And I’m closing in on a year. There is something inside of me blocking me from moving on. If I could dial up Lacuna Inc like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, I would.
It’s like I’m fighting against myself. Even though I’m NC (almost 7 months) I’m still stuck missing “the good” guy. Nothing is making me feel good. What am I resisting? It’s exhausting. I still don’t sleep and I’ve been awake since 2 am today. Tough to think clearly sometimes. But I haven’t given up on myself completely.
I have been 7 months NC too. It is 15 months past the breakup now.
Don’t give up on yourself. Never do!
You will get through this and emerge stronger and happier! I know it doesn’t seem like it right now, but you will!
Hugs and support!!
Hi Say Something
These are hard lessons to learn when we have given our hearts away to someone who we realise didn’t actually care at the end. It hurts like hell to realise that our feelings weren’t reciprocated and everything had been a lie.
I’m even more sure that these EU’s, narcs and AC’s et al, are so empty inside that they have to drag everyone else they come into intimate contact with down to their level. They can pretend for a while that they are great guys, are sincere and probably mean what they say in the moment without a thought for tomorrow but when they find out that they are actually dealing with a real person with real feelings who love and trust them and who has assumed by THEIR actions and words that they feel the same, they panic, they try to blame you, they bail out, go cold as ice and tell you it was all a big mistake or you misunderstood him and what was happening or whatever other pathetic excuse that falls out of his mouth.
Yeah right, like hell you misunderstood. You didn’t.
We end up numb from the experience, self esteem gone, our natural happiness drained away and a desert left inside.
Find your anger at what he did to you, take your heart back because he doesn’t deserve it, he doesn’t deserve one single thing from you, nothing.
He would have KNOWN how you felt about him and he would have KNOWN that he didn’t feel the same way. Guaranteed. The same way you know if you love someone or not.
If he had any honesty or integrity he would have broken it off with you before you got in too deep to get out without being too badly hurt. That’s what people with honesty and integrity do, they don’t lead you down the garden path, future fake, make promises they have no intention of keeping and keep you dangling on a string for their own pleasure, ego or whatever.
He will be the same with every other woman he gets involved with. Lots of fun and good sex at first then he will bail when the woman falls in love with him. If he’s done this to you, he’s done this before and will do so in the future.
He’s not this way because of you or anything you said or did, this is who he is.
As Nat says, he isn’t that special.
Amen!
Pauline,
What you’re saying makes sense. And I you’re right, I heard what he said and believed. I didn’t misunderstand. I didn’t misunderstand that HOURS before “the end” we drove by a restaurant on the bay and he said he wanted to take me there. And we pulled in his driveway and he said he wanted to wax my car. And when my Daughter and her bf stopped over he told them we’d have bonfires in the summer. And then hours later I was completely unwanted.
I’m relating to Sofia in that this guy also had a solid, corporate level job. Not that this element makes him better or worse when it comes to being EU. I don’t know.
Have you read/ seen The Last Lecture? It’s so worth it. I had seen it previously and then we watched it together at my request. There’s a quote:
“When it comes to men who are romantically interested in you, it’s really simple. Just ignore everything they say and only pay attention to what they do.”
He actually used that line on me and apologized profusely when he once made a comment that upset me. He was good in knowing exactly what to say. It worked.
In the end, he asked me what I wanted. Please, like you said, HE WOULD HAVE KNOWN. HE KNEW. I told him that I wanted him in my life and that I wanted him to be a priority. He simply replied, “I’m not there yet”. Umm whaaaat? Since when? And then why are you asking? because it made him SEEM LIKE A NICE GUY. All the way to the end.
Say Something,
Yep. The same happened to me. A nice guy who kept telling me that “he is not there yet, not ready to settle down, but very possible, yes, I want a long-term relationship, but let’s see, let’s go with the flow, you are rushing things too fast, you are pressuring me, why you are so negative and insecure so sensitive and intense and emotional? ”
Actions. Exactly.
My ex-husband never said anything about rushing, pushing or flows or trickles or drips, whatever else. He just knew few months into it, probably 6 months at the longest, that I was the One. He proposed to me and that’s it. We got married and the rest is the history. Why it didn’t work out is another story.
The conclusion though is that when a man wants to be with you, there will be no conversations about ” I am not there yet, I am busy, I am so important, my job is demanding, I am not sure, you are negative.” Heck no. They will be after you with the ring and making sure YOU choose them.
It’s that simple. Even if impossible to come to the realization nowadays. But I experienced that as many other people and can testify that’s how it should be. In the sense that you have no guessing to do. You have no insecurity, no doubts. You are loved for who you are. And the man shows with his actions daily he wants you. Whether it lasts or not, that’s another question.
Guys actually are pretty easy to figure out. They are either in (and you will know it) or out (and you will doubt YOURSELF all the time).
I should be heeding my own preaching here.
Hi Sofia,
I can’t even qualify “the end” as a conversation. A conversation would actually have involved both of us having a discussion. He had a secret agenda. First he claimed “I’ve been thinking about this for a week.” The next day (he must have forgotten what he said) he said “I have NO idea where that came from” as if he had no control over his own words and actions.
For the longest time, I always felt like he was ahead of me in the feelings department. Maybe this was due to what I now understand as fast forwarding. He was bringing up the future, at one point (2 months in) started referring to me
as his gf, “look what the neighbor dropped off for us,” “we need to fast-track your retirement ideas,” “don’t ever buy a car without me” …
Not a day went by that he didn’t pretend to care. Until he stopped pretending. And then in the end so nicely told me that if he could do TWO things, it would be 1. his weekend motorcycle stuff (which he’d previously asked me to be a part of) and 2. Spend time with me.
He said this to my face. This intelligent, grown man. These are the two things he wanted, but his drive for #1 was so great right now. If I lived closer it would be different. And so yes, IF ONLY. So, unfotunately he nicely needed to let me go, because he “didn’t want to be a bad host”. Host? How did I become a guest and he became the host? And even after pouring out my heart, later he “nicely” texted me: May the sun shine down upon you.
I was released. Nicely. So it’s nice, right? A nice disconnect from having to feel anything.
Sofia, HELL YES! I absolutely agree. Was just thinking about it last night.
My only serious long-term relationship lasted for a very long time (we essentially had a family for years) and dissolved for non BR or EU related reasons.
I understood it only recently that that relationship was a blessing and a curse because after it I had no idea that not everyone was like him. I was extremely naive and had no idea of what EU is and that men would say anything just to get that ego stroke from you.
On the surface, my exbf might have seemed like a bit of a future faker. We started dating, I dated one other person (or rather, still pining for him). He worked on getting my trust. He literally carried me in his hands many times in the rain. He arranged for us to have a holiday about 5 months after us having met. There I met with his whole family and grandparents. A year after we moved in. We did a lot of moving across different countries due to his and my job(s) and he was always the one to arrange for all the paper work. And I mainly had to show up and sign. He was very busy too. He cared not because he did not have a job or was not as busy as an exEUM. He cared and made all that effort because he cared. He’s just that kind of person. It’s in him.
Why,
Yes, there are people like that out there. Only I am thinking more and more now that I had my chance with a good guy (ex husband) and that phase is over.
No more good ones:) Not meaning I don’t deserve a good guy and love, care, and respect. Rather meaning that it’s hard to find a good guy, especially getting older. NOt saying it’s impossible. But much harder.
Say Something
He’s definitely done this before to other women. Very practiced at getting the maximum benefits for himself and all the while looking like Mr Perfect.
I’ll wax your car for you? Let’s go to that great restaurant? We’ll have so much fun this summer and all the while knowing he was going to dump you in a few short hours. You hit your use by date by falling in love and wanting a future with him. It was only a matter of time before he could slide out from under without any sort of fuss. Mr Corporate wouldn’t like that scenario at all.
A total sleaze bag. Emotionally unavailable men are just that, UNAVAILABLE.
Like Sofia my ex husband came after me, he made plans, he called every day, he wasn’t ambivalent about anything, he progressed the relationship, he told me he loved me and he proposed 8 months later. There was no um, I’m not there yet. My ex knew how he felt and that’s what men do when they love you. They leave you in no doubt about how they feel and they are CONSISTENTLY there for you.
He sure wasn’t perfect, neither was I, but I never had one moments doubt about how he felt towards me. Like Sofia other factors that I won’t go into broke up the marriage much later down the track.
If any guy you meet and go out with isn’t doing any of these things, always happy to be with you, being consistent, progressing the relationship, calling you often and seeing you regularly, wanting to be exclusive with you, you’re probably wasting your time and you need to dump them.
One piece of advice I got from an older lady I worked with years ago was to find a man who adores you. Sounds like a plan.
Pauline and Sofia,
Agreed. He did all of those things until the end. That’s why it was SURPRISE. YOU ARE NOW DISMISSED.
My marriage also broke up for other reasons. Major incompatibility issues, and things not significant in this thread. Additionally I was able to identify red flags with other men. Just not this guy.
When we first met, he showed me a text from a woman he’d recently and briefly been involved with. She was “crazy”. A few months later he showed me a follow up text from her saying “A real man wouldn’t do this” and he made me believe she was just crazy. I now think he just cut her off like he did to me, although they only had weeks, not months.
One more thing… His last LTR was 5 or 6 years and he was living with her while they were together. In her house. BUT, he never sold his house. Is that weird? EU flag? Living with someone for 5 years and you keep your house? He told me that she suffered frpm depression and would throw him out every so
often. He accepted that treatment (always a victim) and rejected calm, kind, compatible, fun, thoughtful, invested, caring, and comfortable even though he claimed to want that. But not his intention. Didn’t even intend to make those promises hours before the EU-turn.
Wth was he doing living in her house for five years is a better question? I would not let some dude live in my house.
Now my husband and I will live in a house together and, but it won’t be my house; it will be a house we buy together.
Uh, prenup…I’m keeping my house in my name, along with my other assets.
Women need to stop giving up their assets for love.
I don’t want his assets, and he sure as heck isn’t going to get mine.
Relationships have no guarantees. They can depreciate faster than you can drive a new car off the lot.
Say Something
Now you’re starting to get the real measure of this AC/EU man.
He’s an assclown as well.
AC’s seem to have ‘crazy’ ex girlfriends, one has to wonder why.
“I was so nice to her and look how she treats me”, pretending to be a victim to gather your sympathy.
I heard this stuff from the AC about a ‘crazy’ ex girlfriend who wouldn’t leave him alone and was constantly stalking him (poor guy, how awful). All Eau de BS. I’ll bet she never existed or he was stalking some poor woman who got wise to him like I did and dumped him.
Seriously, women aren’t that crazy or stupid and we rarely misunderstand what people are doing and saying.
As for his house, can’t really say, there could be many reasons why he didn’t sell apart from the fact that he didn’t want to. Where would he go when he got his but kicked out?
This assclown kept up his well practiced deception and smooth talking right up to leaving you and them dumping you by text later. No fuss, no muss for him, he’s so used to dumping women this way. Assclown for sure.
The red flags were there right from the start but you didn’t see them or recognise them and most of us don’t because that’s not who we are and we don’t treat people that way.
This is why you, me and thousands of other women have been blindsided. Not your fault Say Something, you’re up against something you didn’t understand but I feel that you are starting to get the picture now. He’s not the BGE, he’s a slug.
“When we first met, he showed me a text from a woman he’d recently and briefly been involved with. She was “crazy”. A few months later he showed me a follow up text from her saying “A real man wouldn’t do this” and he made me believe she was just crazy. I now think he just cut her off like he did to me, although they only had weeks, not months.”
Men calling their exes crazy (or any woman) is a deal breaker for me. I’ve never heard a decent man throw that word around, ever.
Elgie R,
I could apply your questions and words of wisdom directed to Say Something, for myself.
Yes. The most important thing I see only now, a year later, is WHY I allowed to be treated like that. Why I didn’t opt out and stayed single but pursued and managed down expectations and got fed on crumbs and became a doormat, only to have him in my life? Not like I had him anyway. Exactly. Why. Now I know why. It took me a year to figure out. I know the reason and I am healing and I think I have progressed very well.
Say Something, you need to figure out why you put so much stake on this man? Why his love, validation are so important for you to feel complete, alive, lovable, worthy, wonderful human being as you are already. Why you are seeking that from him? No man can provide it. Even those who treat us right.
I have been going through healing and spiritual growth, and I learned a very good lesson. That no man, no woman, not even our own child can validate us. The love comes from another source.
The important thing is to not think why he did what he did, but think about you, Say Something. Your feelings, your pain, your void. To process all of that. You can never figure out why he did what he did. I am at a loss myself reading your story trying to figure out this guy. It is very confusing. The ex from my past was very confusing too. But not so, now that I see it with the clarity.
Like Elgie R says about paying attention to U-Turns, there was a big U-Turn at 2-month mark relationship. At 3-4 months I was about to break up with him and told him so. He put on a blowing hot act. He did another U-Turn. So two major U-Turns in just 2-3 months. That tells one something.
I am blessed that I know what a consistent, steady relationship is. My ex-husband was like that. Only I was not grown up to appreciate it back then. A guy like that and the value of a family. When a guy you are with, whether your husband or a boyfriend, is consistent.
Someone, maybe Oona, wrote in the previous post, that you feel this warmth, confidence, security radiating from both of you. It feels secure, safe. You are both two feet into it. You know you are loved and it’s steady. That’s what love is. Not the sparks and chemistry and weekend bar outing.
You can be yourself, screw up, make mistake, and still you know you are loved for who you are. I know that feeling and state, and luckily only now I finally can look back and appreciate it and know what to look for in my next relationship, if I have one. If I don’t that’s fine. Because do not put your life into anyone’s hands. No one should become attached to anyone so seriously that one loses the sense of oneself. There is other kind of love, the ultimate and it is all really matters. Eternally.
Say Something,
They want to exit beautifully. No one wants to be a bad guy. But all the prep work is hypocritical. Did you feel any coldness and distancing from him weeks before the breakup? Were there any red flags during the relationship, I keep forgetting to ask?
The breakup I had was a polite, formal, face-to-face, with clear explanations and well rehearsed. Well done and proper. I almost felt like applauding. I didn’t drop a tear in front of him. Ever. Never contacted him after. Only to respond 2-3 times last year to his contact, which I regretted, but it was ok. I was brief and assertive. So I have been in NC now for 7 months. Feels great.
Few weeks leading to the breakup he was warming up to me, opening up, and becoming more intimate than before. We would be going on a summer trip together (6 months forward), he wanted to help me financially with my winter break vacation, which I was taken alone because he went to his family to another country, he treated me like I was fragile. We were hanging out more. I was getting more comfortable and put my trust into him. I finally let all my guards down. I felt vulnerable and open as never before. I actually thought the ice had melted and we are finally getting close and emotionally intimate at around the year anniversary. I must have been out of my mind in the last decades and all of my adult life because how in the world did I think that any man who could pressure to get rid of “cells” (his expression), would want a future with me. But he was so apologetic, blowing hot, so “caring” afterwards, that my messed up my head and broken heart melted. I was in the post-procedure hormonal mess, messed up on many levels. I couldn’t think. There were promises of future babies together in a year or two when he is ready, promises to meet his family and friends. He told me that he would always be there for me and help me heal. All of this lasted for a month or so and helped nursing my wounds. Couple weeks later he terminated the relationship as well.
What can I say… Yes, it is very strange how they make it look so good pre-breakup. Naturally, one would think, a person distances, disappears, avoids spending time together, finds excuses to limit time together. The best way of course is to discuss what’s not working and what’s happening. Breakups are never nice. And there are warnings ahead. Have to be..
What Nat writes in this article and what I see from the posts of others, there are some people out there who do just the opposite. The ex from my past had started distancing somewhat after 7-8 months dating but still exhibited confusing behavior. From very cold to very hot. I thought at that time that it was because he was getting used to me and things are not going to be so passionate and crazy after certain mark , so I was ok with that and would attribute his moodiness/unavailability to being busy at work, etc. Then later, after what happened, he became an angel and a true boyfriend. Of course now I know it was not because he cared for me but because he was grateful that I didn’t make him “miserable for the rest of his life and burdened with the responsibility of a child whom he already hates and doesn’t want.” Yes, so all this smelling like roses was coming from his gratitude that I did it and fear and guilt and cowardice. Once he could not take nursing me anymore, he escaped. With a very formal and “humane” breakup though and reasonable reasons, “I am not someone whom he sees as a partner in his life. And I am not committed.” Understood. They certainly know how to orchestrate the pre-exit and exit procedures including the follow-up. They must have multiple experiences, I guess. Yes it is cruel out there, but we have ourselves and keep pressing on. There is no logical, emotional, or intellectual explanation for what they do. It’s just what some people do.
Hi Sofia,
He did not ACT cold or distant.
Three weeks prior he’d announced where he wanted to go with me on vacation, which he’d been hinting at for months… “Save your vacation time. Soon we’ll have the sun on our shoulders…” He was supposed to suggest some dates to me for consideration in the next week.
Instead, (2 weeks Pre-breakup), when I got there, he showed me the motorcycle he’d just bought for his (grown) son. I didn’t want to appear selfish or jealous so I didn’t bring up the vacation. He was as attentive and affectionate as ever, holding my hand in the car, kissing me all down my arm before we fell asleep.
The following weekend he spent with his son.
But, when inviting me for TLW (the last weekend) (still couldn’t assume we would be together, even though I had been once told I had an open invitation) he said that since he couldn’t do his motorcycle stuff because the weather wasn’t looking great, he’d like to have me over. Made it seem like I was second choice. My feelings were hurt, but I didn’t think it was intended. Was it intentional that he signed into his email that weekend in front of me and I could see that he’d opened the daily email from his online dating account? I didn’t even know he still had the account.
Why start making more detailed vacation plans just 3 weeks earlier? You didn’t go on yours either, did you Sofia? His gas lighting technique was to tell me that vacation “would have been when it was cold out.”. He’d brought it up late Aptil and said he’d have dates in early May.
I didn’t get well rehearsed like you. I got random, out of nowhere bizarre comments.
Him: You live too far away
Me: Are you ditching me?
Him: No, that’s not what I’m saying. Why are you being so harsh?
Round 1 of TLW breakup. I was not crying yet. I was in shock and disbelief and then have a blackout of what happened next. I DO NOT remember how round 1 ended, but know it must be something he said, so that I could continue to fun close to normal under these conditions. I remember verbatim much of what else was said, where we were, how he looked, if he was moving or sitting… But now how he stopped round 1.
Your guy minimized with his words to make it seem like no big deal. To make it seem simple. Look at his word choice. And yes, you trusted his judgment as being the right thing for the relationship. I’m so sorry. Were those also his words, the ones you quoted about being miserable for the rest if his life? Cold and harsh.
I also (4 weeks after TLW and just 2 weeks after being assured that he hadn’t given up) was told “I can’t commit.” But it was by text and followed up with “I am dating again” as a response to my request for him to dig deep because I was experiencing a potentially scary medical diagnosis. I never told him what it was, how it turned out. (result was non-cancerous after multiple biopsies FYI) He never again asked, though he said in the text “I want to know what’s going on with you” and wanted to know what he could do to make a positive impact. Umm, R I G H T. Text the “nice guy words” and then go f-ck your brand new gf. Now there’s impact. I did not respond to him for 2 months. Instead I had a public meltdown. Luckily I was with a friend in a town where I will never see those people again. This is the most anger I’ve ever felt or expressed, and it’s always been directed at myself.
I would’ve bet my life that this guy would NEVER have treated me as he did. And Sofia, I know that, in a sense, you did. So I’m glad to hear that you are healing and feeling better. Betrayal by the person I trusted is the worst feeling ever. Still. And I know I have work to do in acceptance.
Say Something,
I wish I could meet you and give a big hug and support you.
What alerts me is that you have been 10+ months post-break up, and you sound very raw. Like it happened in the last 3 months or so. However, I should not generalize. People take different time. I, at 10 months, was still hurting, but not raw. Now, when I write about what the ex did, I feel I am detached when I am writing about him. Yay for me! I may sound like I am invested, but I am not. I am sharing my story to clear it all out the last remnants of dust and hopefully help someone. I will always be raw about the other part what happened during that relationship.
I feel, Say Something, you will hit your own timetable where things will start turning. Where all this rawness will start dulling. Or will turn into another phase.
Do you always feel intense or do you have cycles? I still feel cycles but they are becoming less intense and less frequent. Diminishing waves. I wonder what your process is like. Are you in agony, anger, and sadness all the time? Do you ever get a feeling like “Oh, finally , I think I am over.” I had that feeling probably at least once a month the entire year and the sad feelings would come back again (roller coaster I thought would never end but it is ending!!!), but the good thing the sadness dulls and becomes shorter and the new life kicks in and you feel you are living your life for a longer period of time. It is just very slow, but it does work. I wonder where you are at your healing?
Sometimes, and it happened to me, at the sharpest turn, when I felt I couldn’t take it anymore, something overcame me and I hit another phase. It was depression I think, the longest one, and that’s when things turned for me around 11 months post breakup, which coincided with the anniversary of the termination, with the holidays: Thanksgiving, and Christmas. After I survived that, something died in me in regards to him. I just don’t think I will miss him anymore like I used to. Surely, more stuff has finally died after 14 + months as of now. I hope it is true and will last. But if pain comes back, that’s ok. I will tell myself it is passing and I will be fine again.
You will reach that point. This intensity of feelings just won’t last that long. You will have your breaking point. A lot of clarity you can gain from Nat’s posts and comments and writing here and getting our support. That’s what helped me so much last and this year besides the spiritual support.
You will live a new life! I have survived this and you will too, but don’t rush yourself and don’t think whys about him. Think whys about you. Think about you.
Oh I forgot about what he said and your question (good I forgot about him!). Yes, to clarify he said, ” I don’t want a bastard child, whose father hates him/her in advance. Don’t make me miserable for the rest of my life to have this burden. I will be unhappy and the child will be unhappy too. Left without a father.” His words. Paraphrased perhaps not exact words, but 90% close.
Thank you Sofia,
Yes, my feelings are still somewhat raw, and I am aware. I want to be at the point of detachment (emotionally) from him: the good, the bad, the wondering, the ruminating, the pain, the suffering. And I realize the responsibility is all on me.
When I read others’ stories I can clearly see what I need to apply to my own life. When I think about “my story” I rationally know this as well. But I have thoughts and feelings that haunt and torture me. I do not act on them and have maintained NC. I am not as bad as the first few weeks. I now know that I was in a permanent state of fight-flight-freeze to the point I was not able to function normally. I was taking time off at work, couldn’t stop moving or exercising, wanted to avoid my own home, had to have “things” scheduled back to back non- stop, couldn’t eat, couldn’t sleep, just wanted to fade away. Now it’s just can’t sleep, distracted, (by triggers – lots of them), rumination, sadness.
I appreciate you sharing your story, and even though it has the extra painful layer, I relate to what you’re saying and feeling. When I read what he said to you, I think wow, what kind of d-bag would say something like that? I wonder what you were thinking and what you felt when you heard that. And how you were able to justify it. I may very well have tried to accept it too, had I heard the same thing. Because I know that NOW you see those words for what they are. Wrong. Mean. Careless.
And I realize that we have all accepted horrible in the absence of caring. For some reason, at that time, we believed crumbs of horror could sustain us. Just for now. Just a little bit longer. We can take a little bit more. It’s ok. We didn’t walk away. We hung in there. Because nice guys aren’t cruel. Two opposing things cannot occupy the same space. In the end I was told “I care about you. I care about alot of people”. Ummm because he’s s-u-c-h a NICE GUY. He cares. About himself. And he cares about how I will remember him… Nicely telling me to go away and live a nice life.
The sadness has never left me. Anger has been minimal. I guess the levels of sadness vary, and at times it feels still, devastating. Like I lost the best thing ever. The BGE. But I know that doesn’t make sense because he can’t be the BGE. I know I know I know.
I’m not sure what I think yet about your new, important guy date. But you know what you need. Nobody is too busy to call and be in touch if they want to be. So you’ll see. And you’ll know.
Thank you again for your thoughtfulness.
Say Something,
Perfectly said:
“For some reason, at that time, we believed crumbs of horror could sustain us. Just for now. Just a little bit longer. We can take a little bit more. It’s ok. We didn’t walk away. We hung in there. Because nice guys aren’t cruel”
Don’t call him BGE. He is not. He is just a guy.
I never call the ex – “my ex.” He is not “my.” He is just an ex.
My anger didn’t last long either. It was in outbursts and cycles. Violent ones. Like when I was driving my car (should have stopped I know) and crying and yelling out loud. Like screaming at the top of your lungs. A lot of anger came out. Short phases but I am glad the anger came. The first 3 months all I felt was shame, guilt, blaming myself, sadness and bargaining. Like I did something wrong and I ruined it all with my behavior. It was terrible. Anger was very helpful. And I welcomed it. It is so cleansing. Bargaining went away eventually. Denial went away. Then it was a mix of depression and acceptance. Like a switch on and off. I used to say (I just recently read my postings from April 2014 – actually interesting to read – it was all about HIM. the focus was on him not me) oh I reached my acceptance 3 months after the breakup. Nope. Long way to go. Only now I can timidly and tentatively say I think I am there finally but ok if I experience the cycles again. I have been indifferent to him for a month now. Just empty and indifferent. That’s a great feeling. Came unexpectedly. So what I am saying also is that you have your own timetable. You WILL get there even though it seems impossible right now. Important thing is keep reading as much possible here and other resources.
To answer your question, how I justified his behavior…. I trusted him he meant that he would still be with me and we will have a family later on. Of course ultimately it’s a woman’s decision. And I did it , at the time, to ensure that I can take care of the child I have already being a single mom ( my gut feeling told me he would be gone regardless), I couldn’t imagine how I could handle it. What would I tell to my daughter? My boss? Those were my questions BACK when I was in that state of mind and life point at the time. Now? I would absolutely say Yes and kick him out and I know I could handle it. Whatever it takes. I can handle it. But this understanding came only later. And I won’t go further into this. It was a growth for me last year on many different levels. So yes, I trusted him and thought what he was saying was true. Another amazing thing that happened, which is kind of weird, but that experience, actually bonded us. I think I wrote about it there. I think when a couple goes through anything hard, trying experience they become bonded and more intimate because of that experience. And that happened between us and very shortly after he bailed out promptly. It was the strangest thing in my life, that someone acts like that. But like I said to you in one of my other posts: WE WILL NEVER GET ANY CLARIFICATION. You have got to move on with the knowledge you have now. People do things that we will never understand why. And we don’t need to. Keep tuning in to yourself. Be your best friend. You will always be there for yourself. Others won’t.
Sofia, I understand what you mean about trusting. It’s difficult to fathom that someone so close, that you are sharing your life with, that you feel bonded with, will just “stop” caring and leave. I completely agree. Strangest, nonsensical thing ever. I completely understand that relationships do not always work out. However, before a guy is acting “all in” how can he honestly not know? It almost means that a guy whP is EU will go all out no matter what and then just bail, no matter what. I’m so sorry to read your story, but I also see what a fighter you are. I want my life back.
Say Something,
You will get your life back! Continue discovering yourself here and getting help with the therapist.
I don’t know the answer why he did what he did and why your ex did what he did.
We will never know. There could be many explanations. ACs, EUs, lost the feelings, lost the passion, fell in love with someone. It doesn’t matter. It is over. And we have to build our new lives without them. Richer, more colorful, happier lives focused on nurturing ourselves.
He called me a fighter. Breaking up, he said, “I know you are a fighter and a strong woman. You have been through a lot. I know you can do it.” Or something like that. Hell yes I am a fighter and even stronger now than ever before.
We CAN DO IT!
Pauline,
Thank you, as I need to hear the hard-core truth. It has been so hard for me because until the end, he seemed like BGE. Yeah, I don’t know why he held onto his own house if he was living with his then gf for 5 years. His house was paid for.
One more thing… during TLW (the last weekend) as I desperately tried to make sense of what was happening, I suggested for one, that maybe we could talk more. At this point he blurted out, “Before (name of his recent ex), I was in a phone relationship for 5
years with a girl from (another state hundreds of miles away) and after that I never wanted to talk on the phone again!”
So a grown, educated, intelligent, responsible man that I think is the BGE is telling ME that I LIVE TOO FAR AWAY even though he allegedly spent five years in a phone relationship with someone 800 miles away??? Where was this stuff even coming from? We were spending every wknd together. Confusing because he lived with someone for years but had some bizarre phone thing for years before, that he never told me about. We were 2 hours apart, 1.5 from my work. Totally not a big deal until he made it “the reason”- it wasn’t. I offered to drive more, to move. He freaked out and I didn’t understand. It was like he shoved me out of a car going 100 miles an hour right before reaching the beautiful view. But he didn’t mean to, and he shoved me nicely. And hell, I got to see some scenery along the way. That was nice.
And yes, he was promising things still just hours before he cut to the final chapter. Very matter of factly. Who does that?
Say Something – I’m not buying it.
Usually on BR – people can see, with the benefit of hindsight, places where they allowed a dodgy relationship to flourish and continue ie WHERE HE WASN’T PERFECT AND YOU NOTICED IT but didn’t protect yourself. You may be the one exception to the rule and forever damned to never knowing what you can do to protect yourself from this happening in full, again in the future, over and over and over again.
Either way, I feel really really sorry for you, you are totally correct, I wasn’t there, I don’t know either of you and what do I know? There are lots of really brilliant posters on here and it is natural not to connect with all of them, so you take your pick. Good luck, I hope you find what you are looking for.
I noticed it at the end. I noticed it at the end. And I admit to hanging on because I wrongly had hope. I don’t regret seeking clarification, but I never got it. And it’s ok that it doesn’t seem believable to you. Maybe why it’s still hard for me to digest. It’s nonsensical. There was no event, disagreement, buildup, breakdown, noticeable change. Just THE END.
Say Something,
It is so painful. So hard to comprehend. There will be never any clarification. Your situation was very confusing. At least if you had some evidence, or cheating, or blowing cold, distancing, disappearance act: those things you would remember that could help explaining something. But nothing at all. That is awful.
I will pray that you reach your turning point soon. I can understand what you are going through. In a way, I will always be stuck in some aspect of that relationship, but that’s fine as long as I keep moving on and HE is not the reason why I am in pain. It’s very hard for adult, grown-up people to overcome this much pain. I think teenagers and young people handle it better. Like younger skin heals faster. Not a good example, but you know what I mean. When I had my first devastating breakup, which I would rate as the second after the one that happened last year, in its severity, I recovered from it in a year I think, although I had been into this guy since I was 12! And kept “loving him” (whatever that was I had for him probably painful addiction due to my childhood issues) till I was 18 (we started a real relationship when I was 16. So it lasted about two years). He cheated on me and that was done and over with. And I got married two years later! The pain that was so horrible as I thought at the time was erased quite clean at a year mark. Actually, the substitute (not a nice word, but not a rebound either), rather someone new, let’s say that, or my ex-now, husband, helped that progress. I met him a year almost later after the breakup. But a new man AND a good man certainly does help one’s recovery. But that has to be a GOOD CARING MAN and you have to be in the state to be able to receive that love and care. I am not saying to you go find someone. I know you can’t and don’t want to. And should not really until you are healed. You will heal. Don’t give up. You will turn for the better. Keep reading here as much as you can and write. I am here too, writing, reading, and learning. Still lots to learn for me. I am not very good yet at handling the red flags fast enough. But getting there.
Thank you Sofia,
Of course I would like to meet a good (not “nice”) guy. I haven’t dated in over three months now. I don’t date “just to date” so I won’t get involved just to not be single. I’ve never been that way. I’ve only, like you, thought I had found the BGE just one time since my divorce over 5 years ago. And this relationship that felt better than any I’ve ever been in turned out to be nothing. So I wonder, if THAT was so wrong, and nothing else has even registered on the possibility scale, what does actually good look and feel like? Does it even exist?
Again, thanks for sharing and helping me to muddle through. I want to reach a turning point!
Say Something,
Good point. The ex was my first, fairly normal (consistent, courting, communicating, taking out, regular seeing each other, etc etc – normal progression the first 6 months) relationship after 7 years of being divorced and having only non-relationship situations, just based on sex and going out, just insignificant. One of the reasons why I got attached to him so fast ( huge mistake) because I felt lonely and had a void (resolved now) and because I was so sick of weird relationships (the kind like my most recent date) that I hooked to him like he was the last man in my entire life. Became insecure and clingy maybe in some ways after 6 months passed and as he started disengaging. It was a mutual unhealthy balancing act. Me clinging/him detaching but both keep on going because it “worked” due to our mutual issues of non-commitment and emptiness inside.
A good relationship feels good. You feel in your own skin. Cared for and loved who you are. I used to say, it’s like when you are around that person who is caring and loving, you don’t even feel that person’s presence sometimes, in the sense, that you are so comfortable with what you are doing or saying, that you don’t have to be conscious much and self-correct, self censure. You feel comfortable and in peace. You are authentic. That’s what is a good relationship. A very important part of it, anyway.
You will reach your turning point. This won’t last forever. You will hit a moment when you will start turning into a different direction. You can’t force it, I think. I forced a lot. It didn’t work. To me it has been a natural progression to the pain dulling. But it does arise still like today. I heard someone speaking English with the accent like the ex had (he is from a different country). The same accent the same country. Brought tears to my eyes unexpectedly! But I was fine few minutes after. Surprised at my reaction but didn’t beat up myself. It’s all part of grieving. Weird things like that too. It’s normal and ok to feel that way even over a year or more later. Dry the tears and keep on moving forward.
A good relationship feels good. You feel in your own skin. Cared for and loved who you are. I used to say, it’s like when you are around that person who is caring and loving, you don’t even feel that person’s presence sometimes, in the sense, that you are so comfortable with what you are doing or saying, that you don’t have to be conscious much and self-correct, self censure. You feel comfortable and in peace. You are authentic. That’s what is a good relationship.
Yes, Sofia, you’re right. Until the end, I felt this way which made it so difficult.
My trio of reading materials:
Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback Girl
Men who can’t love
Women who love psychopaths
In women who love psychopaths, she discusses image management. She also writes ” ‘You have broken my heart…’ Registers similar to ‘Can you pass the butter?’ ”
I’m sorry about your accent trigger.
Say Something,
I have read your posts and I can feel your PAIN. Here is a big hug from me. I am trying to recover from a broken heart just like YOU. Your posts have helped ease some of my pain. I know that I am not alone. Sofia here is a hug for you as well. Thank you for sharing your story it has helped me as well.
I was engaged to be married. He had taken the ultimate step. I thought things were great. I was SO HAPPY. I felt like I had struck GOLD. He kissed me good bye one morning and that night he was sleeping with another woman. I am not joking about this. I never saw him again. It is mind blowing to me. I have no idea how long it was going on. We were engaged to be married. We spent the weekends together. We talked on the phone everyday all day long. I never got an explanation. There is no closure. Once I discovered that he never came home (we lived in separate places). I guess he figured he didn’t need to explain it. When I tried to get an explanation this man went COLD like he never knew me. I loved this man. He was the center of my universe. I have my own career and was not dependent on him financially. He was my best friend. So, when he walked I was alone. I failed to cultivate other friendships which has made this break up really tough. We spent so much time together I didn’t make time for other relationships.
You should thank God your BGE was not around longer. I know it still hurts but at least you didn’t invest anymore time in him. Like you I thought I had the BGE. The truth is he is a liar and a cheater. He betrayed me and shattered my heart. When I tried to find out why he did this- he treated me like he never knew me.
Now, I am trying to recover. I have been reading posts here for support. I want advice about moving on. I want to know what other ladies are doing to recover. I have taken time to process this and it still hurts. I don’t want to rehash it anymore. I have analyzed this to death. I have documented my lessons learned. I have ruminated so much that I am numb. I have a hole in my heart but, its time to move on. I am trying but I don’t have the answers. The abrupt ending to this relationship has left me feeling broken and disrespected. I want to be happy and move on with my life. Restoration is needed in my life.
What are you doing in your daily life to recover? I want to thank Oona, Sofia, Suki, Elgie, Pauline and so many others who share your stories here. Your stories and encouraging words of support that you offer here have helped me many days. This journey has been so much tougher for me because I don’t have a network of friends. My demanding professional career has been my only form of distraction. I appreciate the virtual support ladies.
How do I put this behind me and move on? He is long gone and I am in PAIN. I cant waste another brain cell trying to figure this out. I am trying to MOVE ON.
Good Morning Mary Jane,
I get it. I get the pain. You’re not just in pain, you’re also suffering. I get the complete feeling of betrayal like never before experienced. We were not engaged, but I would have done a-n-y-thing (well, within reason) because I was 100% invested. It does not make sense to us that the person we trusted, that we were sharing a life with, sharing a bed with, could disappear and we would never see him again. Because it’s NOT NORMAL.
Friends could not understand when I said I felt more pain than ever in my life. I know how I feel. They insisted that I must’ve misunderstood him. NO. My own (very intelligent, insightful) sister, who’d met him and remarked that he seemed “really into me” declared that, in the end, HE was trying to be polite, (is it polite to deceive, gas light, future fake, string along?) and It was ME being the asshole by not just accepting his contradictions. My relationships with my sister and one close friend are now jeopardized to the point where we no longer speak. Because until I can “be better” like “the old me” they can’t relate to me and just don’t want to. Compound sadness. I do have one good friend who is also a reader here that has listened day after day to me and having just ONE PERSON like that has helped.
I have learned that people CAN do whatever they want. Of course we think that yes, that’s true but BGE ISN’T CAPABLE of treating me badly because it DOESN’T MAKE SENSE. BGE is BGE. We wouldn’t love a d-bag, cheater, liar. Only a good guy. Only a guy we could trust. A guy we believe.
And if BGE had to honestly explain how he could do the Jekyll-Hyde switch, well then he couldn’t BE BGE, and that’s who he wants to me seen as. Intellectually we KNOW that BGE is NOT who we thought because he is betrayed us. Yes, I too had never been happier and thought I’d struck gold.
I have spent MONTHS crying, reading, writing, talking, researching…
This site is the best. The three books I listed above have given the most insight. Although I will never know what really happened, I know that SOMETHING ABOUT HIM was not right. I know something about me is not right in that I didn’t want to let go.
Read about pathological relationships and the effects on the betrayed partner in women who love psychopaths. I am not saying BGE was a sociopath/psychopath, but he has traits (EU and beyond) that by their nature will cause harm and cognitive dissonance. A man with these traits is destructive to a partner. And if he really can present as BGE, HARM IS INEVITABLE.
I found that this book and Natalie’s both made sense. Not saying I feel better, but out of the dozens of books I’ve read, the three I mentioned have been critical. And readers here, the ones you mentioned above, are helpful as well.
Like you, I have my own career. I have kids and my own home. Things I do. I have this life-in-limbo feeling because I struggle to enjoy and appreciate all the good right now. For the first time ever, after BGE, I stated seeing a therapist. She does not give answers, but assures that my feelings are normal, that I experienced a trauma, and that I’m processing grief. I’m still hurting, and yes I should be thankful that he’s not around. So how do I still miss him (the BGE part)? Do you feel thankful? Cognitive dissonance? Traumatic bonding? I KNOW it doesn’t make sense:
I thought he was BGE.
He’s NOT BGE. He’s EU (and beyond).
I WANT(ed) him to be BGE, not EU.
I need to ACCEPT he’s EU and forget him.
I am not able yet to accept.
Not accepting causes suffering.
I have suffered enough and want my life back.
Hugs back to you. I believe you, I understand, and I’m sorry.
Good morning Say Something,
You are right this is not NORMAL. Something is WRONG with them disappearing like this. I have not attempted to contact him and I want. I have not heard from him. It is clear that he pulled a dirty act.
It sure would be nice to sit and talk to you and Sofia (lol). You both get what I am going thru right now. I really appreciate BR. I don’t have a life right now. I am stunned and this does not seem REAL. My siblings have simply said he is a LOSER forget about him. They don’t want to hear about him. They say I should be on my knees thanking God we didn’t get married.
I am just trying to RECOVER. I would love to wake up happy and move on with my life. There is no timetable for this. The tears are real and the hurt is with me daily.
I will be SO CAREFUL about any future relationships. Starting over is going to be tough. Thank you for sharing your story because this disappearing act has ROCKED me. I am so sorry this happened to you. We will get past these hurts.
Say Something,
How old are your kids? I had a very hard time for the first few months after the breakup being available as a parent. Gradually as I got better, I kicked myself for becoming emotionally unavailable to my daughter. A lot of my strength came from the realization that I am hurting her by being like that. She doesn’t deserve it. He hurt me, but he should not be hurting her. I have to protect her and be available to her and enjoy our time together, raise her, do things with her, be there for her. So my daughter was and is a very important drive in my recovery. I have to be strong for her. A strong, confident, available mom example. The one I didn’t have in my life because she was emotionally unavailable, had alcoholism and depression, was divorced, and attempted committing suicide at least 3 times throughout her life.
As I got better or when I had my better time periods, I would be shocked at what I am doing and how it affects my daughter. I pulled myself up and kept on going strong. She needs me. That’s one of the way to look at our lives and purpose: protect and be there for our children. Our trauma can traumatize them, and we don’t yet know the consequences, but we can imagine if we grew up in volatile conditions. That’s not to guilt or scare you or myself, but to get a reality check that we are not the only ones suffering.
My daughter is my guardian angel. I have so much to look forward raising her:) She is almost 11 and we are having so much fun now together and it’s becoming more interesting with every day. 🙂
Mary Jane and Say Something: how do we start healing, when do we start recovering? I went through cycles: better, worse, good, bad, horrible, awesome, wow I am feeling great, I am depressed, and recently I have been feeling numb and indifferent. I am not sure what it is. Emotional burnout from the year of rumination and analysis and suffering? Post-traumatic stress depression? I mostly relate these feelings to dissatisfaction in my professional life. I am bored to death and unsatisfied with what I do, although the co-workers and company where I work are great. I would love to have a job I like and feel that what I do is important and fulfilling. I think that would help to kick me in the butt to wake up, be alert, and look forward to each day. I have been apathetic the last few weeks and notice that I am losing interest in things I used to enjoy. I might be experiencing depression or a temporary slump. I hope this is not the aftermath of the grief and suffering I went through last 2013 and 2014. I am basically just doing the most important functions and trying to be and do my best with my daughter. So while I am saying I recovered and doing well, I am carefully observing my behavior and feeling that I might need help. I feel stuck and lethargic to the point I don’t even want anything new and don’t know what I want (career wise or new hobbies). I don’t want medication and afraid of side-effects. I have anxiety and depression symptoms clearly. My sleep is affected. My memory is gone. I am indifferent. I feel I need a cognitive therapy perhaps but no medication. Anyone’s insight would be helpful. I am sorry I rambled about myself, but what I am trying to say is that even if recovery seemingly has come like in my case after 14+ months, I feel something is not right with me but too confused to understand whether it’s because I am affected by all that happened or because I need to get out of my work environment ASAP. Wish I could quit but I can’t afford that financially.
Healing will happen naturally with time although it’s hard to believe for you, Say Something, and for you Mary Jane (I don’t know how long it has been for you). What happened to you both is very painful because those people seemed like good candidates at the time. The switch was unbelievable and surreal. I know how it feels. In my case I did have the warning signs from the beginning but ignored every one of them. In your case, only time will help. A good listening friend. BR. Faith. Counseling. And again patience and time. A good job or kids or whatever else you can dedicate yourself to will help. Helping others. Volunteering. Yes, it will never take away the thoughts of them. But as you go on, gradually and surely, they will be less on your mind. Several months more perhaps. And the thing is they will always stay in your heart. Always. But the pain will lessen. It won’t be so sharp. The questions will go away. You will emotionally burn out thinking and feeling of them (it’s just natural, I don’t want to compare to a car engine but like the belts wear off and tear and need to be replaced eventually. They run and run and run but get torn, dried up and die). There will be times the memories will be back sharply, but the intense pain will subside, the suffering periods will get shorter. The lighter or indifferent periods will get longer. It’s like that. I have accepted that he will always stay in my heart for several reasons, but it’s okay, because I live my life now. New life with new goals, ideas, new hope. I am not trying to eradicate him out of my heart and mind and not trying to stop myself if he pops up in my head. I don’t resist my grieving process. I know that too shall pass. I just let the time and nature and my own healing do the work. Yes, the image of him will stay, but his presence and influence on me will be eradicated eventually. Hugs, healing vibes and hope to you both.
Sofia and Mary Jane,
Hearing from you both is helpful. We are all still in pain. Sofia, maybe feeling numb and indifferent is because you are somewhat suppressing your pain. I’m not sure. It can wax and wane. There are triggers. There is PTSD. I’ve also read about Post Traumatic Relationship Syndrome. It discusses intimate betrayal and how/why it is so deeply hurtful. Try CBT, I wrote to you in the next post. Can’t hurt.
“There is no timetable for this. The tears are real and the hurt is with me daily.”
Yes, Mary Jane.
“And the thing is they will always stay in your heart. Always. But the pain will lessen. It won’t be so sharp. The questions will go away. You will emotionally burn out thinking and feeling of them…”
Thank you Sofia for the hopeful words.
My kids are teenage- early 20’s. I do not let them know how I feel or ever discuss anything about BGE with them. But it’s hard because I know too that I haven’t given them my full attention. I’ve avoided visiting my oldest because she lives close to him. “if you lived closer, things would be different” he said at the end. Like xxxxxxxx, the town where my daughter lives. He named her town, which is a college town, and now I never want to go there. I know this is not ok. But the pain is powerful.
Thinking of you both. Couldn’t post below, sorry!
Yep I know nothing. Sorry I can’t help you.
Dear Sofia,
this comment is for you, but there was no reply button at the end of your comment, so I hope you find it.
It is a very good thing that you are aware of the symptoms of your depression and/or anxiety. I can totally relate to your decision to not take medications: they can help relieve the symptoms, but they do not teach you anything. This was my reasoning anyway when I was offered them a few times by both my doctor and the psychiatrist he referred me to last year, but I refused to take them and was lucky to find an excellent therapist who helped me a great deal, in my case mostly by being truly empathetic and teaching me how to accept and love myself. I still have a long way to go, it’s an ongoing – and never ending – process, but I am in a different place compared to where I was before.
Also, I would suggest that maybe you could be underestimating the impact of the last events with mr rude. Especially since you have been working so hard to get past the awful experience with the previous man, it must be disappointing and frustrating to come across another unavailable man. Even if you have detached yourself quickly from the situation this time, and put to the test all that you have learned, yet it may understandable if it makes you wonder, ‘what’s the point?’. After all it’s still quite raw. And feeling vulnerable in the presence of a man, even just thinking of possibilities, at this stage may be enough to trigger open old wounds. This is just me thinking of being in a similar situation and how I may react, so forgive me if it does not reflect you or is irrelevant to your response.
Best of luck and hugs x
I
ReadyForChange,
Thank you for responding to my question!
Very possible. I noticed, after each red flag with that Mr. “Rude” (good name!) I felt I had pain and old wounds opening up in me! And even though I got over those feelings within couple days, I did notice something was sinking in me. Not because of him and what he did, but like the old can of grief opened up and I became somewhat grave, quiet, and sad in the week(s) following. He was not the reason but the trigger.
Yes, you are right. “What’s the point ever trying again?” After that experience I feel like I am extinguished. Hopefully not for good. Just tired.
I guess going through that dating experience showed me that I still have way to go to lick my wounds and learn how to love myself and forgive myself. I think I have progressed quite far but still have a lot of things to work on. At this point in my life I can abstain from dating for as long as it will happen, even if all life. I just don’t care.
Raising the child and doing my best at it is my first priority, of course. The other is finding my niche in life. New job, new hobbies, reliving interest in my previous hobbies (interests gone). Finding myself and feeling satisfied with what I am doing.
I have been stuck in the limbo and that’s why I am considering help. I think I got myself in a vicious cycle where I would like to have a change but am stuck, don’t know what exactly I should be doing, where to turn, afraid to shake the stability of a current corporate check and benefits, being a single mom that’s tough to risk. And yet I know I am in the wrong place. I tried to settle for a year but obviously have gotten myself now into a scarier place where I am emotionally burned out, gave up and feeling indifferent and numb. That’s NOT GOOD. I have to shake this off, wake up, get up, and CHANGE THINGS. And if I can’t do it myself, I need an objective professional to get me started to get unstuck. I don’t want to sound controversial but mood altering medications are scary. We don’t know their real long-term side effects. And yes, they don’t solve anything. They might physically relieve the symptoms. Unless one is suicidal, yes, maybe some drug therapy is necessary.
I believe that a quality therapy with an empathetic person will be very helpful. I just need to find one and I think even couple-few sessions will already get me to a fresh start. I feel like I am sinking to the bottom lately too many times. Not just PMS or a bad day or two. The duration of the numb, grave kind of days is becoming longer than before and the interjection of stable/cheerful days is becoming shorter. Typically I feel low 1-1,5 weeks before my period. Now this is turning into PMS non-stop so to speak. Has been like this for few months now. Menopause? No, too early. I am 37. Maybe I am just lazy? But that’s not true. I know I used to be a conscientious worker and student all my life.
I will ask people around for a good counselor. I appreciate sharing your experience, ReadyForChange. I feel my Faith is helping me, but because I am fairly a newcomer to the spirituality (just over a year) just like I am a newcomer here (just over a year), I don’t have enough foundation and guidance and experience to get me through this what seems to be like post-traumatic depression symptoms or something unresolved like grief being stuck. I am not sure, but I know have issues and they need to be addressed because I want to live and enjoy my life with my daughter.
Hugs and many thanks!
Sofia,
somehow I sense – and again, forgive me if I am projecting – that you may be a bit harsh on yourself. Please try to focus on all that you are and do already (you are working, raising a child, keeping social interactions, growing emotionally and spirirually, etc.) instead of what may be wrong with you or that you may lack. In fact, it could be that your need for change more widely, including your career, etc. may be a reflection of the fact that you have already changed so much internally and now you need to make your external reality match those changes.
I really hope that you find a good counsellor (how much money they ask is not a good indicator; the therapist I found works for a charity, so I did not have to pay, otherwise I would have not been able to afford one), who helps you see that you are a wonderful person as you are and have so much to offer.
I really hope things work out for you. You deserve it!
ReadyForChange,
That’s what I have heard most of my life. That I am too harsh on myself. I used to be much more demanding, self-blaming, guilting myself! I got MUCH BETTER, but it still shows in some of my behavior.
You are so right! It gave me goosebumps reading it. Because that’s what I exactly feel and think! My internal life has changed so much in the last year, but I find myself in the same environment (career I mean – I feel happy at home and anywhere outside my work), and I feel I can’t reconcile the new me and the previous environment. The spiritual growth has turned my life into a different direction. I am hoping the counselor will help me to get on the right path. So confused! Thank you for your response and your kind words:)
This sums up what my ex pulled to a T. Even had to laugh when you mentioned how they are so hasty to get married to prove they made the right decision. A guy that took 8 years to propose to me and dodged any conversation about getting married for 2 years. Yet gets married to the woman he was “just friends” with for the last year of our relationship in less than two years after he broke up with me. But by then the fog lifted and he became so predictable. I knew it was all a ruse to prove to everyone else that our relationship didn’t fail because of him And to keep people from questioning his new wife and the particulars of their relationship.
The part that is scary is how identical they all are and why aren’t they teaching people about these kinds of people early on so they know what to look for, the know the red flags. I never knew about narcissists until a few months before the end of the relationship and things finally started to make sense. Wish I would have been aware years earlier. I plan on making sure my niece and nephews know about these type of people before they get to dating age.
“The heart can’t help what the heart wants”
Hmm, makes me think of the Selena Gomez song (“but the heart wants what it wants”) and I’d like to know your take on those song lyrics.
I think the song represents a very unhealthy relationship that’s justified purely by the “high” feelings vs. the logical side of things (“there’s a million reasons why I should give you up”).
Maybe we can’t help who we’re attracted to, however, we can certainly help whether or not we act on that attraction. At the same time, “follow your heart” or “listen to your heart” is a nice thought, although I’m not sure how well it works as stand alone advice.
Hi Pink,
Oh wow, I thought I was the only one who feels a spike of hot anger when I hear that whiny little phrase.
“The heart wants what the heart wants.”
This is how Woody Allen justified his stomach-churning romance with his adopted daughter. This is the “Don’t judge me” get-out-of-jail-free card that miscreants wave around when they deliberately tear a hole in someone else’s life and don’t want to catch any sh*t for it thangkewvermuch.
While it’s not wrong per se, I mean yeah everyone’s affections and attractions go wherever they go and there isn’t any logic to it necessarily, this is against everything that real relationships are all about. People who are constantly chasing after their transient ‘feelings’ for others, leaving a trail of hurt people in their wake, don’t deserve to be in relationships. I mean christalmighty, do these same people buy a puppy and a year later have it put down because they want to get this new puppy they saw yesterday? Because the heart wants what the heart wants, right?
Totally agree. It’s more like: “The dysfunction wants what the dysfunction wants.” Heart’s good nothin’ to do with it!
Again, Natalie, you’ve written what I most needed to hear. I was married to my AC/EUM who left me for a much younger woman after a 20 year relationship. The whole breakup thing came to a head two years ago, and I still struggle, I still cry, and I’m still looking for answers that will never materialize. None of it makes sense to me. I gain strength reading your posts and hope that I will finally be rid of this pain once and for all. I know I was not the first wonderful woman he screwed over and I will not be the last. The fact that none of his ex girlfriends would have anything to do with him should have been a huge red flag. I really thought I was special. I know he will cause chaos and heartache for this new girlfriend and that’s my only condolence. Moving onward with hope is the only way I can cope. Thank you for your words; they make me not feel I am not alone.
Gail, I urge you to read Chump Lady as well – that is a site for people (mostly women) whose spouses cheat and/or left them for someone else. It’s funny, feisty and will give you more than hope – it will empower you and help you take back your life. Check out today’s post and then read the archives. I absolutely LOVE some of the women on that site. They have gone through hell and come out so strong. And it’s great to read even if you haven’t personally gone through infidelity. Together with BR, I’ve learned so much from these two sites.
Gail, stay strong…You will come out on the other side and one day you will see a bit of light, a bit of sunshine will warm your skin hile you have your cup of tea/coffee, there’ll be a little smile (bitter at first, warmer later) and you’ll realise your wounds are starting to heal. Take care of yourself (my story doesn’t sound as half traumatic as yours seems to have been so I can’t ven begin to imagine) and read on…this site has got some true healing power through shared experience. Good thoughts coming your way!
Chilling to read. This is exactly what exMOM has been doing to his wife for years, and I feel very dirty that I was complicit in that for a time.
It was certainly all about image for him, the grand old house, perfect stay at home baking wife, perfect children, great career, planning to have aging parents move in and all pretend they are The Waltons. Those of you that will remember my older posts will be familiar that he was even trying for another child.
In the background he was having an affair, telling me he has no sympathy for his wife’s grievances and that he tells her what she wants to hear. Urgh, it makes my flesh crawl to think that somehow I’d convinced myself it was somehow her fault – but we do these things in affairs I’ve come to learn.
Even now his image is planning a move house to secure an easier lifestyle with another child on the way. However, when he popped up back in my life about a month back he was telling me that he would feel better leaving them knowing they would at least be financially secure with a lower cost of living.
Wow, I am so lucky I’m away from that and my heart bleeds for his family. He really is a low life.
The hard fact for me to swallow is that I can also see that I have been this way myself in many ways with my family, and my heart bleed for them too. I too am a low life, but thankfully an aware and recovering one.
Colly, you are lucky you are seeing this now and the fact that this chills you means you are really on the right path! It’s no fun to face yourself honestly but there’s freedom in it too. Mostly you will be free to choose, not just react helplessly to your emotions. Hold to that moral compass! This guy is a low life, as are all men who deceive and betray their wives – especially the way this guy is doing it. Soon every thought of him will make you physically sick, and that will be a good thing!
Thanks Wiser. I absolutely hate having to interact with him via work. Every phone call and email I have just irritates the crap out of me. I know with me that if someone starts to irritate me they are history in my heart.
The hard bit is now facing myself more, but I’m getting better at it, and am not beating myself up so relentlessly. Yes, my behaviour has been appalling, but I’m now aware and determined to not go back there. Its all about moving forward positively and counting my blessings. I feel very very lucky to be where I am.
Brilliant Colly you are doing so so well. Really hope it gets easier for you.
This has happened to me just like this once. I was never really sure if we were dating, so I wrote him off as a good friend and made sure to be careful around him. He would definitely future fake and talk to me about how if he had a car, he could go places, or how he was in my area, but I just couldn’t shake off the feeling he was hiding something. Next thing you know, he disappears. He shows up 3 months later just to do more future faking, and I was not having it. Turns out I may have dodged a bullet, because he was basically stringing me along; he was pursuing this other girl, and at the same time, tried to give the appearance of being into me too or at least a very close friend. Besides, I get very pissed when ex-friends disappear at the first sign of conflict without so much as telling me why; to me, it means they didn’t care enough to fight it out (reasonably! No name-calling, for ex.) with me.
I’m wondering if this also applies to people who try to let you down gently and say they just want to be friends? I actually responded with, “OK. Give me some time to be on the same page as you.” Next thing you know, they were mad at me for this! It was like they wanted to meet their image of whatever the friendship was, they probably knew I had liked them for some time, but they didn’t account for the fact that I would not agree to just be friends, just like that. It was as if their offer of friendship was some kind of favor!
Thanks Elgie and Wiser! We did seems exclusive, we just hadn’t had ‘that’ conversation yet and I wouldn’t have guess that it would have the ending it did. But maybe you’re right.. It’s been tempting to go back to old ways of thinking and get down about myself wallowing and wondering what is ‘wrong’ with me (ok I’m doing that a little bit) but maybe I’m handling it better than I thought. It is natural to feel a bit of a sting isn’t it? 🙂
Oh yeah, Jade. Of course it stings. I had this happen to me with a female work friend. I thought we were tight buds! We were consultants for the same company, worked together at a client for a year, were BFFs for that year and even snuck out of work for movies together at her urging. I read tarot and once while doing her cards, me not liking what I saw, something about some 40 year old woman intervening in their marriage, she actually confided in me that the previous evening she had participated in a 3-some at her hubby’s urging, and that was the interloper I saw in the cards. Anyway, how much closer could we be?? She felt she could share that with me! I’d been to her home, met the family, hung out at dinner parties. So, when the company dinner came up, and at that time we were at different clients, I called her to arrange sitting together, I was shocked that when I got to the table she had not saved a place for me and it was like “no thing” in her view. She was all buddied up with some other coworker and waved at me like I was just a casual acquaintance. No matter, I had friends at a different table and figured she and I would stay for a drink after the meeting. Nope. I walked out of the ballroom just in time to see her driving off with the other coworker friend, without even a goodbye. I remember how confused I was at her offhandedness. And I was hurt. Wasn’t it “special”, the bond we had? Apparently not.
It’s like being kicked out of a cocoon of warmth, friendship, and acceptance into a bitter cold wind. Without warning. Oh yes, you have every reason to feel stung.
Elgie R., I don’t understand that mindset at all, that friends while it’s convenient and then dismissive when it’s not.
I’ve been following br for some time now & I’ve learned so much. However, I mostly apply the rules/analogies to my family.
This article TOTALLY nailed it for me: it explains a DECADE of bs my mother exercised to cover up her neverending affair + naricisst ways which are destroying our family. “Trying to smell of roses” could be the effing tagline to her movie.
Despite being a grown up by now, I still suffer from childhood/teenage issues which are caused by the crazy shit that happened behind closed doors – but to outsiders a certain image always had to be maintained. It makes me retch just to think about it. I’m working through the layers of emotions attached to all of this, and I am steadfast at NC to my mother (has anyone else ever tried to explain not talking to their own parent to others? There’s always a judgement avalanche in response. Ughhh). It has really made a WORLD of a difference, and honestly, I can’t thank you enough for writing this blog.
Yep – I had to get support to help with this – firstly know that what you have experienced is childhood emotional abuse which can have serious physical effects as well as ongoing trauma and no one in their right mind would support you re entering or re engaging with that ever.
Society has a low toleration policy on abusing children – as it should be – however this has a double edged sword effect of closing down any discussions about it simultaneously – creating a general ignorance of what is really going on and how wide spread it actually is and what it actually is in the first place.
I believe some people I have met, who have not grown up being repeatedly abused by parents or family or have grown up being emotionally abused – and are currently in denial themselves – cannot accept family abusing other family members full stop. So what you are asking them to do is impossible for them currently – ie to have empathy for you when they don’t see it as bad in the first place.
Like you know, already, it is really hard to comprehend someone you love would do that to you and so denying that it is happening and explaining it away…. they know better than you and set about trying to persuade you that you are deluded in some way and need to either turn a blind eye to the abusive behaviour/ accept it somehow and carry on as if nothing is going on…only to result in giving your family a clean slate to carry on and abuse you again.
I bet that you have done this yourself many times in the past? ignored it, pulled out the clean slate over and over again? and so know that this tactic doesn’t work and results in more abuse? More hurt and pain.
Would they tell you to accept it or that it was normal behaviour for parents – to someone who had been raped or beaten? and it is not acceptable to say it to yourself either. Their behavoiur -ignoring/dismissing what you are telling them – is not helpful to your genuine needs (to protect yourself and thrive) and compounds any abuse you have already suffered stuffing it under the carpet for a later date….
When they reply with these undermining answers I simply ask, ‘Were you there?’ or ‘Do you walk in my shoes?’…If they repeat themselves trying to convince me, I close the conversation down and walk away because that IS effectively abusing you by dismissing your real needs. Say something along the lines – I am sure they are amazing but I am not interested in discussing it with them further…something like that.
It’s a boundary thing – just as you have to set boundaries with your abusive family to stop them hurting you on any level so do you have to set boundaries with people who are ignorant and not careful or understanding of your needs…. and if they don’t accept that and continue – I have nothing to do with them completely.
I go find people – as you have done here – who may understand fully – Narcissist support places on facebook, utube, therapists who know about Narcissists, friends who do understand etc… It is not our job to educate people – especially when they don’t even ask in the first place – well not my job – if they want to know they will educate themselves and apologise to you – if they care about you -if they don’t they will shut the conversation down by doing to you what your parents did – deny you of your needs and convince you they are not important or correct and the cycle continues…
Accept that surprising people may always be ignorant to your needs but that does not mean you have to mirror them and be ignorant to your own needs – get up and find people more who do care – they are out there. Good luck.
Oh and if the reply to you feels demeaning/shaming or humiliating in anyway? A person who is genuinely caring of you and your feelings and is interested in your well-being – even if they disagree with you – will reserve the right to question you WITHOUT humiliation or demeaning/shaming and agree to disagree in a manner that makes YOU still feel ok about yourself.
Its ok for people to disagree with you based on their own experiences in life – its not ok for them to make YOU feel YOUR experiences are not true/real and that you voicing them is somehow shameful/ demeaning or bad. It is the other way around. Do not put up with it – walk away – you’ve been made to feel bad enough – wrongly – now its time to feel good.
The more I understand about people, their game playing and manipulations the more I think will I just stay on my own forever. It just seems too hard!! Fed up of the bullshit. Most people are living a lie, what you see on the outside so called ‘happy relationships’ it’s not the case, when you find out what’s really going on. Living separate lives and cheating etc
I’m single after a long relationship that wasn’t going anywhere. He is now getting married and settled with someone he barely knows. I can barely hold a casual thing for a few months!
Online dating seems all but pointless as all guys seem to want younger women, people are fussy when they have no good reason to be. I have so far dating guys who have claimed I am too good for them, or out of their league. So why I can’t I find someone in my so called league? I still look young for approaching 40 and could pass for 10 years younger I am so tempted to change my age but know that isn’t a good start.
Going out well I never get approached by guys and am too shy. I am part of social meet groups but again the guys are attracted to certain types of women usually the slim ones with a reputation for being easy. So again I rarely meet anyone there too.
If I have an idea of what I’m looking for a more traditional relationship where the guy is a gentleman, why can’t I find it?
Frustrated – You do not want a man who is looking for an easy women, imagine your life trying to keep up with his demands or unreal expectations of you. You deserve to be with the guy who loves you as you are. Trust me I know the giving up hope bit, I’ve been there, and wade in that pool from time to time. And I’m with you with the on-line dating scene. There are a lot of toads on it and it’s hard to weed them out.
The man you dated who is marrying someone he barely knows – you know as well as I do that his issues are still there. He is jumping in to lock someone down before they see his true colors. That women may be who you should feel sorry for (I know that’s probably a hard one!) but she will end up feeling like you did and wanting out.
A lot of people do manipulate. Gentleman are out there. You know what you want and are continuing to try and find it – many others give up. I don’t think settling for less is going to make you happy so don’t. If you go outside of what you know you deserve than you won’t be happy there either. Be happy with you, try not to get too down, take some time for you, rebuild your life! I’m with you sister!
Frustrated,
Reading your comment seemed as if I am reading my own thoughts about my own life.
I have no easy answer for you but I wanted to tell you that you are not alone. I came to realize that the reason why it is so hard to find the person with the kind of qualities I’m looking for(strong character, courageous, self-aware, has a sense of direction, good values, rich inner life) is that because these qualities are rare. It is easier to not struggle to understand yourself and others, be a coward , not take responsibility for anything and float along life wherever it takes you without trying to create your own reality.
I’m in part guilty of some of that as well. As a result I gave too much power to other people to make my reality. I stayed with men for far too long who were not a good match and really didn’t have the qualities I mentioned, while I was putting them and our relationship on a pedestal. I guess being now alone and struggling is the price I have to pay for not seeing the true nature of things.
But we shouldn’t blame ourselves. We need to treat ourselves with compassion and understand that making mistakes is a part of the human condition. Yes, we maybe missed some opportunities, wasted time, trusted the wrong person, said the wrong thing at the wrong time, made the wrong decision, etc. But we will do better next time because we are more self aware, we know the right from wrong a little better, we know now what we want or at least how it doesn’t look like, and more importantly: we are not afraid. Not afraid of what’s coming, of being out there, facing the world and being occasionally disappointed, of loss, of making tough choices, and struggle, of taking responsibility for ourselves and others, because this too is a part of our human condition. And as long as we are human, all of us will experience(or maybe even must experience) most of these things in our lifetime.
BRReader, I agree completely and feel like I’m there and doing all of the things you mentioned but I am currently at the place of fully recognizing and grieving the lost time, missed opportunities, etc.
“we are not afraid. Not afraid of what’s coming, of being out there, facing the world and being occasionally disappointed, of loss, of making tough choices, and struggle, of taking responsibility for ourselves and others, because this too is a part of our human condition.” Not there fully yet. Sometimes I’m not afraid, other times I’m scared as hell! But, I keep working at it and growing and trust that in time I will get there!
Thank you for your inspiring post.
Veracity,
The way I see it is that it is impossible to be completely perfect all the time. We will always have our ups and downs. Like a pendulum. And we can only monetarily reach this state of equilibrium. The only thing we need to do is just always know that the equilibrium is there and aim for it.
BRReader, Yes, I see it that way too. Still working on letting go of the thought of getting it perfectly “right”. I think it’s the same with most things, when we’re learning we might swing a tad too far in the other direction, over shoot a bit, and then have to readjust. And since were always learning (hopefully), it requires constant readjustments.
Frustrated you have expectations that others feel they can’t live up to – you ARE too good for them – you make them feel less than – listen to them – do not waste your time with them – they are telling you the truth and doing you a favour – you can see the result of ‘less than’ relationships everywhere on BR.
You ARE sounding a bit entitled in your post perhaps grieving over the life you felt you were going to get vs the life you actually have? – the validated people I know are not feeling entitled and they have done their grieving fully – they are happy with themselves and where they are in life and not reliant on the right man turning up to make their life feel good.
Your passions, interests and hobbies don’t appear to be sustaining you as fully as they should in that way – you mention that they don’t get you a gentleman? Like you do them in order to get you a man and that that is what you are entitled to for your diligent work? Do them because they make you feel really good and not noticing what you haven’t got – ie money, clothes, children, men etc…not just because they may get you off the sofa a few nights a week to meet the man of your dreams.
Blaming younger women for stealing all the dates? It may be true? but you don’t need all of them – just one – it is not how you look or how old you are but how happy, confident and validated you are which exudes real attraction on the highest level – as you probably know yourself. I know lots of people over forty that met their real lovers later in life and I am definitely over forty and find gentlemen attracted to me, in my age range, in a rural location and I’m no Kate Moss – most men I meet in reality – contrary to the myth – aren’t interested in younger women who have less to offer them/talk to them about/connect with them on and do not just want to be with someone just for their baby making properties. So put that ageist thing well and truly to one side – if YOU aren’t ageist maybe others wouldn’t be also?
Remember you don’t need lots of men – you just need one – and they could be around the next corner or never turn up? There is nothing wrong with you wanting to go out with someone who shows you love and respect – ie a gentleman – only they may not come in the package of Poldark or Darcy ( = both fantasy not real men!) and if the gentlemen you are meeting are not actually gentlemen ie loving and respectful of the real you, then indeed you may have to try a different pond to look for one or face that your life might not actually include a partner and find a way to make your life fulfilling and stimulating without them.
Either way you need to address this issue that is clearly important to you so that you will be happy either way. Whether you meet someone or not. It may be time to analyse exactly what you want out of life and what you feel you are missing without them? And try and find sensory/real – independent – ways to access a little of those things for yourself without them – no matter what happens in your life? These are your real needs, carry on ignoring them at your peril.
I seem to be one of the few men who read this site. I have read just about every comment on almost every article on this site and I don’t actually remember seeing a guy posting. Anyway, men are not the only ones who behave like this. All the articles on BR can be applied to women. I just had an absolutely horrifying relationship experience with an emotionally unavailable woman (EUW) assclown who was also a narcissist, and who also had major depressive disorder mood swings and who also required Adderall to function. I will not go into details because the details don’t matter anymore. She was simultaneously the worst and best thing that ever happened to me. She basically destroyed my self-esteem and absolutely crushed my heart and soul which forced me to rebuild myself piece by piece from the wreckage. I came out a much stronger person by focusing on loving myself and being the source of my own happiness. I just want to say thanks for writing these articles and for this website as it has changed my life and helped me cope with the storm of emotions that was going on in my head because of this woman. It really degrades my trust in humanity knowing how messed up people are. The biggest problem I have is that my brain just cannot fathom how someone could mess with another person like this, especially when emotions and the heart is involved. It is just pure cruelty. Thankfully we all know the red flags and can avoid it in the future. Good luck out there.
Blake,
If this person you dealt with had many of the disorders you say she had, then she probably wasn’t able to have the kind the relationship you wanted. I’m not sure if she unfolded or she diplayed these behaviors from the beginning, but if a person has psychological issues as you described trying to have a “normal” relationship maybe difficult especially if you don’t suffer from these types of behaviors. That doesen’t excuse her behavior, but it does complicate your situation.
She was upfront about the major depressive disorder. I personally didn’t have a problem with it because she was (1) taking medication (2) going to a therapist and (3) she seemed to have it under control. Apparently she did not have it under control. She was upfront about a number other things including having low self-esteem and needing “constant reassurance”. She played the victim in the beginning and hooked me with her almost endless stories about all of her “crazy” ex boyfriends. She played on my Florence Nightengale personality. I can’t resist helping people. I felt very strongly connected to her from day 1 and I decided to give her a shot as that is what my instinct told me to do. I went into this with literally no baggage. We started out friends and she was mostly kind and sweet blowing hot but there were times when she displayed Code Red behavior that I ignored. When we moved into a relationship she quickly removed her mask and blew almost constant cold until I couldn’t take it anymore and confronted her about it. She proceeded to project all of her problems onto me from that point on and tried to make me believe it was all my fault. I don’t need to give any more details but you are essentially right. She simply wasn’t capable of having the relationship I wanted, I hurt myself taking a chance on her. I ignored all the giant glaring red flags she was waving in the beginning. She displayed almost all of the code red/amber alerts. Never again.
Yep, the Cluster B people are out there…. You’ve got your Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Histrionic Personality Disorder, and Antisocial Personality Disorder, …,…., and ….
People seem to forget about Borderlines; they are mostly women.
But,not all borderlines and narcissists are “evil-doers.” …stereotypes….
… and some seemingly ‘codependents’ are really covert narcissists, er, Florence is really packing a mean-punch.
… inverted narcs, and then you have your co-narcissists that ….
Absolutely. I’ve read countless hours about all of the classic textbook disorders. She’s a difficult one to diagnose as she exhibited behavior from a multitude of disorders. I am 100% confident that she is going to be the same miserable person for the rest of her life as I cannot see ever a person with such an extreme range of issues spontaneously combusting into a loving person. It just won’t happen. She is doomed. I even wrote her a 10 page email “telling her about herself” because I just absolutely had to. I had so much anger built up inside that I was not able to release with her since I didn’t want it to end. I had to vent it. I didn’t threaten her or anything, I just pointed out what a monster she was. Hindsight reveals that I maybe should not have sent that email to her. Oh well.
It doesn’t matter anyway. It isn’t about her. It is about me and myself. I played with fire and got burned. The only person I can blame is myself for ignoring the warning signs and trying to swim in raw sewerage against the current (wow that is a horrible visual).
There have been a number of men in posts on BR over the last few years and they are equally welcome. They sometimes say the same as you at first, that BR seems to be primarily a females site? but I don’t believe Natalie ever writes her posts directed at females only – I believe she writes to everyone who has been through the experiences we have been through and I thoroughly agree with you that these things can happen to men and women.
Don’t be harsh on yourself Blake. You were given the twin red flags of medication and mental health issue however if you were anything like myself – you did not SEE what there was to be scared of – because you had been conditioned not to SEE – prior to this final experience.
I beat myself up on this issue for years and I do not recommend it. Really. Hopefully with BR we can all finally learn to move on together and give our love and care to someone who values it and actually has the ability to return their love and care also — or we spot, listen and run when they clearly aren’t able.
I KNOW what you mean by saying ‘never again’ it is the most shocking experience I think I’ve ever had so far, myself with another human being and I’m looking forward to something less shocking in future….
I’m sure we are all totally in agreement there. It absolutely does degrade your trust to what’s out there. It will take a lot from me to trust again, I know that for sure. Such a shame there’s messed up people who ruin confidence and self esteem and break hearts with no remorse. This is what happened to me. Of course we are only sharing out experiences with men so no doubt guys endure their fair share.
If someone is on medication or in therapy then for me it’s a big no-no. I prefer not to take on people’s problems because you can’t help them. You could be the best person in the world they will drag you down with them.
I agree – medication/mental health issue is a definite red flag and run for me also.
If someone can’t have a healthy relationship – at the moment with themselves – they have less – if any!! – ability to have any true relationship with you.
What you see, may not actually be and probably is not, actual reality. And you will never know for sure, until they have worked through all the things they need to in order to come fully off the medication safely and supported fully.
Otherwise it’s like your whole world becomes a physical emanation of THEIR mental reality.
Yes, you are right. She was dragging me down with her into her world of darkness and gloom. It was starting to make me sick, I was losing myself and I almost forgot who I was. I’m glad I got out as quickly as I did, otherwise I would probably have let her totally dominate my entire being. The “relationship” we had lasted only 6 weeks after around 8 weeks of friendship, so in total around 14 weeks. It has been 5 months since we “ended” and I am still shocked, I still have occasional flashbacks (visual and emotional), and I’m trying to let go by focusing on me. I am still utterly shocked how someone could behave like that. I guess the right way to describe is to say that I was and still are traumatized by what happened.
It is really shocking – we have had our eyes opened.
Oh man this one helped. I have been living on this site the past week dealing with a breakup. The “he chose me part” is what rang the most true for me.
In Dec. we met and went on 11 dates in 2 weeks. They were cute – art show, modern dance performance, breakfasts, etc. – lots of fast forwarding on his part. He is “famous” in my town (which my brother said, to make me feel better, is like being the skinniest kid at fat camp)But with him I felt awesome being “picked” and then taken around. He showed me off and even introduced me to the mayor as “this is my future wife.” While there were alarm bells at that, it was also nice and exciting to hear.
Four more weeks in I ended things as he became “busy”, scattered, would only come over at night to vent his problems, run ragged from whatever events he was scheduling himself to go to – always complaining he needed a break, but also never actually putting something aside to take a break, and him taking all of his meals with friends (he never eats alone, in fact, I’ve never met someone so afraid to be by himself), and he was continually refusing to do things I had planned like a movie or game night with friends.
I was doing well after him, felt confident in my choice, until his ego got in the way. One Sunday he messaged, asked if I was home and then showed up. He came in and began kissing me and firing questions between kisses “do you think I can be that guy who comes home to you every night” do you think I can be this and that for you. How intense right?! And manipulative… Well that moment was over at the end of Feb, and between then and now it all fell very very flat again, and even worse this time. I was the one trying to be the girl who showed him I was cool with his lifestyle, all while putting my needs aside.
He ended up dumping me on Easter – when I was in Chicago with my good friend’s family. I had messaged him things like “wish you were here, you’d have fun, It’d be great to take a trip here together”. And when he messaged back the next day he told me I was more committed to the relationship. When I mentioned going to Chicago together he said it bothered him because “that just “didn’t sound interesting” and he doesn’t do anything he’s not interested in. He said when he realized he wouldn’t want to take a trip with me that that was a bad sign. He messaged me later “I appreciate that you tried”. He mentioned that when I was gone this weekend he was able to nap and relax, even thought in the last 3 weekend we had gone out one time for one night. I feel like he was associating me as the reason he’s so tired and stressed.
I’m more upset now than before because I felt like he faked a future and then when I didn’t buy into it, he upped the ante. I feel manipulated and am mad at myself for not sticking to my guns, and then being the one to try. I keep remembering the image of him is not HIM. I’ve been reading enough of these articles that they really are sinking in.
OMFingG! Who ARE these people!?
…The sink of evil?…
The list goes on but one thing is for sure they are not for us.
Hd moving on – I am very sorry for the experience you have had and hope you move on to something much better next time.
It’s understandable that you’re upset! I know that feeling of being mad at yourself for not following your instincts. You can’t go back and change it, but it will serve you well in the future. He was playing with you and projecting his crap on you. It’s great for you that he’s gone!!
Yeah I remember this behavior! The let’s go out to the movies and eat dinner and maybe have a little sex afterwards, even though I never wanted to do any of these things with you. This is the least could do before I disappear with the new girl I’ve been seeing.
The sad part is I knew what he was doing and the whole time I couldn’t even enjoy myself let alone perform sexually! I just cried and true to his lack of empathy, he didn’t say one word! Most normal people would ask you why are crying, but that would require him to care and we just couldn’t have that! LOL
I learned that people who claim to be “good and decent” generally are not. Because if you have to convince someone else or do thing “nice” to not look so bad then you must know that you ain’t s#@t. What is even worse is when they go through all this nonsense to leave you, then have to cajones to comeback acting like everything is okay!! As if you didn’t notice that they disappeared! The funny part is many of these guys actually believe they are good guys despite the fact that they are lying, cheating and being manipulative.
You know how you let them know that what they did wasn’t okay, cut them off! Because the minute you continue to engage with them after they have treated you without the respect you deserve they start to believe that they must not be that bad you still want to talk to them. Deluded!
Exactly my story! I wish you would’ve told me this 6 months ago! 😉 You nailed it (and him) exactly!
Casually opened this email article this morning. Read the first paragraph and nearly spat out my tea (crime!). By the 2nd paragraph I had to refill my tea, turn off the music & was utterly amazed by how spot-on this article and your observations were. It’s him to the last detail! I even see myself, the “friend”, his parents…OMG! Thank you so much, and to all of the replies here. Amazing and comforting that I’m so not an idiot after all. That the narcissist is, in fact, cunning and charming and that so many of us fall for them. You have all really lifted my spirits & given me some great insights in just this quick bit. Thank you all SO much!!!
….and THATS why trying to reason with ACs once they’ve decided and justified what what they will do is a BIG waste of time. They don’t care or don’t have feelings. Or have convinced the self they’re right and you don’t have feelings.
I tried to explain to the AC that he had hurt me. He just looked blank, cold, expressionless. Then he said “I’d run a mile if I were you”, like he wanted me to say “no, no”. Then he took me out to an expensive dinner and tried to tell me about his other woman: like paying for the meal bought him therapy time. Shudder.
I smiled as I misread the paragraph below as “they’re conscious pricks..”!
🙂
They’ve come up with a set of conditions under which they feel they they’re
“OK”. This is their benchmark of supposed rightness and decency. Each time their conscience pricks, they remember their “good deeds” (or what they feel that they could have done that would be worse).
They believe they’re controlling the uncontrollable and have failed to account for the fact that 1) people have feelings, that 2) regardless of intentions, there are unintended consequences, and that 3) even if they’ve done everything possible to build up credits and hide any misdeeds, they invariably come out.”
Stephanie- perfectly said! Thank you.
I’ve faced something kinda like this quite a bit recently. It’s not exactly the same, but got me thinking about these people/events.
I’ve had “friends” that were very charming, outgoing, friendly, and used flattery as a lure. They were very good at managing their image. They are very religious and come off as great people. I was so caught up in their image and flattery, that when they did something that was not right, I either did not see it (didn’t want to), or if I did, I’d minimize it, because after all, they were good Christians. I felt guilty for even thinking it. I also did the “well everyone else thinks they’re great, I’m being too judgmental”.
These “friends” were not there for me unless it was for the good time or they could offer the appearance of help. When I needed them, they just disappeared or offered a dismissive “I won’t be there.” That’s what one of them sent me in an email after the announcement for my younger sister’s funeral. He had not gone to the other 3 funerals that year either (mom, dad, older sister).
It was lowest point in my life – I had recently had spine surgery, had just quit a job where I was being bullied by my bosses and lost 4 members of my family – all in a little over a year. These “friends” all disappeared. I’m still grieving this, all of it. Maybe why this post made me think of it.
But if I were to point that out to someone, I’m being too sensitive.
You really do figure out who’s there for you when ‘bad’ things happen.
I look back now and the red flags were there. I wasn’t aware of some of them and dismissed others…or downgraded them to yellow flags.
I’m very wary now of charming or overly friendly/flattering people. I also take more time to get to know people in general before investing.
I’ve noticed a pattern in the ones I’ve known that they have harems, not necessarily women, but people. They collect people. They are the ones that send the group emails inviting people to do things or telling what things are happening, they organize group events, lead events.
Is it just me or has anyone else seen that pattern?
I feel like a magnet for these folks, so it’s exhausting sometimes spotting/repelling them. I seem to vacillate between wanting to get out and meet new people and just staying in and healing/conserving my energy.
Feeling triggered, so hope it wasn’t rambling!
Veracity – No love, you’re not rambling! I was just talking to someone today about the people who “collect people”. I had a recent experience with this type of group / behavior. You’re right they are the type to lead and organize things and only support and be there for you at their convenience. It’s tough because being apart of the group makes you feel accepted – but ultimately, when they are not there for you, they do not make you feel like a valued member of the group. Harems and collected people are different than friends. You have to ask yourself why those people are seeking out those types of relationships. It seems like emotional unavailability, which we know too well exactly what that is and looks like.
I read something the other day on the new trend with all of this social media is that some people would rather have attention from many rather than love from a few. If you think about those people and their collections that way, you feel sorry for them rather than angered by them. It’s their choices and their over inflated egos, and they are not filling their lives with love.
I’m sorry to hear about your losses.
Hd moving on, Okay, so it is a thing! I hadn’t had much experience with it before and then all of a sudden it seemed like there were lots of them lurking about trying to hook people in. It makes sense that with social media there would be more of them…or at least they are more obvious or have more opportunities.
Thank you for the condolences.
I am sorry to read about the extremely sad time you have been having but I think from what you are saying – you are coming to the true magnitude of what has really been happening to you all along – culminating in a very, very stressful period of time for yourself/ your family and I would be surprised if there wasn’t some level of trauma attached to these multiple experiences ie feeling that it is happening everywhere over and over again and it will never be anything other.
Listen to yourself – from what you are saying your instincts are good – and you are now aware and therefore fully able to protect yourself.
In primal terms – being in any contact with other humans – will always be dangerous – because when we first existed on earth we were all a genuine threat to each other – from stealing each others food, to partners, fights etc… which could easily mean the end for us – ie no hospitals, doctors, police, communication etc….
I struggle with the feeling that it is everywhere, often and have to keep reminding myself of the few – bankable – occasions known to me – when that is not happening. And that now I am aware I WILL see it more – whereas before I just didn’t – so the rate of seeing these things will go up. I have found a few good souls to connect to, in different places which helps, people who make me feel able to be fully in the room and appreciated for being so and don’t trigger bad feelings within myself. Search and increase those – don’t waste your time on the others no matter how many they seem – its amazing how few real friends you actually need to feel good about yourself in reality but if you have a boatload of love freeloaders it won’t matter how many more friends or groups you connect with – you won’t feel nothing good about yourself… or them either.
Thank you, Oona, you understand. I can’t tell you how much that means to me.
“you are coming to the true magnitude of what has really been happening to you all along” Yes. I am facing and grieving it and feeling its full weight.
“I would be surprised if there wasn’t some level of trauma attached to these multiple experiences ie feeling that it is happening everywhere over and over again and it will never be anything other. “ Yes. During and immediately after I felt completely helpless, powerless and defeated. I felt raw. It was like I was turned inside out and every nerve ending was exposed and I felt utterly alone and unprotected. Yes, I felt (still feel sometimes) like it would never stop, the hits just kept coming. I was afraid to answer the phone for fear I’d hear someone else just died. My confidence and sense of security were completely gone.
What made it all the more excruciating and incomprehensible was people responses. One of my bosses laughed when he heard my father died (right after my mom). It was the kind of wow, what are the chances, kind of laugh. Then he walked away. Two other bosses tried to convince me not to go to my father’s funeral. I was such a compliant, people pleaser that they figured I would just say okay.
Everybody just disappeared. I mean everybody. It was as if they thought it was contagious or something. I think it was too much for them and they didn’t know how to handle it, so they just disappeared. I felt abandoned and dismissed.
The blessing of all this is that it forced me to my knees, literally. I had to, no, I made the decision, to face everything, the abuse, my fear of abandonment, the betrayal, grief, my compliance, my fear of confrontation, my lack of boundaries, etc..
I feel like I’m rebuilding myself and am getting better at trusting myself to protect myself. I sometimes have to override the urge to doubt my instincts/judgment…to substitute someone else’s judgment for mine.
Reading your experience with the feeling that it’s everywhere, is so helpful and encouraging. I remind myself that, right now, I am safe and I can protect myself.
I prefer one or two solid friends to a bunch of fair weather friends, or worse, frenemies. The groups initially appealed to me because it felt like a good way to get back out in the world without any pressure.
I’m working on finding/recognizing the good souls to connect with. One of the big lessons in this part, for me, was learning to sit with and embrace the loneliness.
Thank you so much, Oona! I really appreciate your thoughtful and personal response and your helpful suggestions. I really feel like someone else gets it, really gets it, for the first time. Thank you for being willing to go there; I understand it’s not an easy place to go. This was/is so helpful. I’m sending you a big, warm hug. Veracity
I just thought to mention that a big part of my current state of being is that I recently turned the same age that my sister was when she passed away.
Thank you for appreciating my writing to you Veracity – its really good to know – its always good to know we are not alone – no matter what is going on but especially when its not a good time 🙂
Thank you for going there yourself, I find your writings thoughtful and inspiring as well – its really brave after what you have been through – such reactions and denial from others!!! – and the only way forward i.e. to listen/know yourself and find somewhere to help validate your needs/feelings – get them all out and not to give up EVER until you find somewhere or someone to do it with. You deserve it. It seems so simple – and is – once you are confident and well practised at it and not dealing with a cyclone of events with no support to help that is.
I have experienced some really confusing emotions upon the death of close family and so perhaps it is more close to me than others? I know I am coping the better for everything through what I have learned through Natalie and others and from what you write it seems you do also. I hate to think what mess I would be in without it right now.
It seems you understand what you need well and I wish you lots of it in your journey. We ARE better for being in this world – rather than denial – anyday – no matter how bad it is because one day we will move on. Take it easy on yourself and give yourself lots of love.
It is hard to accept being different to my family of birth – I wonder if it is because we learn as babies to mirror others in order to learn and survive – language, actions etc…and so we grow up expecting to have them to mirror – and when the mirror isn’t there – then what?
You’re welcome! It is good to know we are not alone.
Yes, I do need to find somewhere/someone to help validate my needs/feelings. Been working on that, and I trust my efforts will pan out.
It makes sense that since you have experienced the death of close family members that it would be closer to you than to others and more likely that you would relate/empathize. It makes it harder to put yourself in the other person’s shoes if you haven’t been there.
Thank you for your well wishes. I send those wishes to you as well. I agree, we are better off in reality than denial! When we live in denial we are just delaying the inevitable.
“It is hard to accept being different to my family of birth – I wonder if it is because we learn as babies to mirror others in order to learn and survive – language, actions etc…and so we grow up expecting to have them to mirror – and when the mirror isn’t there – then what?”
That makes sense. When the mirror isn’t there we are forced to figure it out. I wonder, do we then start looking for mirrors in others?
It was hard accepting being different. As a child I wondered where in the world I came from…I was (am) sooo different from the rest of my family! I really appreciate and embrace the differences now.
Blake-
Thanks for sharing. I also find women can be toxic in a cruel selfish way, with a sense of entitlement that’s destructive and devious.
And I too find the difficult part in this is accepting that people – or a person- will willingly do awful things to other people ie you. It’s unbelievable. It’s not gender specific (I just don’t think men trawl through websites looking for comfort when they are hurting)
But I don’t think you/I/we can teach them any difference. Maybe just as well- I’m secretly hoping karma to come round one day and bite him where it hurts!
wishing you well.
So I have posted on here about my on and off ex who moved, etc and was recently divorced. he has lied to me so many times and I am really struggling with the fact that I wish I could tell him off. Can someone please talk me off the ledge? I was nothing but great and supportive to him after his divorce and I just do not understand how he can be such a liar, even after I have confronted him about things. I’m just really hurting and struggling today.
@Claire, If you would like to explain a bit more what happened and more importantly what you did and why you think you did it. What about this is triggering you? How do you feel? And what do you think you need to do to move on? What stops you from doing that thing?
[I’d like to talk you off the ledge, and I’d like to hear your story].
Suki,
Please see below, I didn’t know to respn on here.
Thank you so much!!
This piece hit closest to home than any article in 2015 so far. So painful and so relatable. BR keeps it safe and sane as always.
I had an eye opening conversation with exEUM recently, on a benign work subject, and I saw that instead of giving me the info I’ve requested (numbers), he kept on telling me how I should feel about the numbers or what they might or might not be. And then he said “How can I help you understand this?”. It was my a-ha moment for sure. I said, you can’t help me understand anything, I don’t need you to shape my understanding, just give me the facts and numbers and I’ll form my opinion on my own. For the first time I saw this strategy of his so clearly. Image management that never stops. I saw how terrified he was just to communicate openly and without any manipulation. Maybe he doesn’t know how? It’s luckily not my problem anymore and neither did I feel sorry for him (too much pain caused) but I saw him as pathetic and manipulative.
I was also listening to a podcast today and in a totally unrelated vein the author said there “you can only give the facts to your partner. and be vulnerable and open yourself to the possibility that it’s THEIR choice to decide what to do with this info and how to act upon it. but it is your RESPONSIBILITY and your only option – to give facts to your partner. Because this is what partnership is about”. And isn’t it all about this? Equality and partnership in a relationship? “I will treat you as an equal. Because I love you. And because you are”.
As many here, I am so tired of the stupid games people play. The constant obsession with how things are perceived. Constant mirroring and hiding behind rationalizations. I am not a saint either. And I guess these thoughts is what happens when you crack your own EU shell up a bit: it’s so scary to be authentic, but I am so exhausted from wasting time on talking to the reflection of my fears and traumas and dating shadows and imposters.
I don’t know if any of this makes any sense. This post really touched me.
Why,
Wow, snap, my ex co-worker is just the same with me and any other WOMAN. How could our tiny little minds process such information and come up with a picture that was better than they can create. I always thought he sort of secretly hated the fact I had a career and would never have been able to tolerate being with me because I wasn’t the stay at home type and would not worship his almighty bread winning skills.
Why, Your post toughed a nerve. “And then he said “How can I help you understand this?”. It’s patronizing BS!!
My former “friend”, one that I referenced in my post, once said to me “use critical thinking here” when I did not agree with him about an issue. Arrogant much?!
Oops! Toughed=touched. 🙂
Aaaah, Veracity! I got the “use critical thinking” (aka HIS thinking) card too! Exactly.the.same.words.
Makes me angry just thinking about it now. The balls on these people! Don’t they understand how selfish and stupid they look saying those things?
Same guy, different pants…another country? No, I don’t think they give a thought to how they look/sound. I’m pretty sure they think they’re perfect (and we’re the stupid ones)!
Yeah, I’m pissed thinking about it too!
Mephista’s cyber-stalking ex-boyfriend who’s trying to get back into her good books(email): Hi! How are things? blah blah yawn blah blah yawn blah … I still think I’m cleverer than you but you are just more hardworking (local college vs. world class postgraduate degree).
Mephista: Really? So how come you don’t get it when i’ve repeatedly told you to leave me alone?
Argh, I was asked yesterday by him whether he thought my star employees was ready for him to start educating her in the “black ops” he does on projects. What a dick!
What an excellent comment. I am going to frame this. V.
The more I read the more and more my toes curled at the utter truth! Brilliant! This is one of the most frustrating parts about my ex. He was very concerned with how he was perceived (I recognized after in looking back) and he truly believes he is a good guy. He will charm your socks off and it was so aggravating to have him treat me so poorly only to have others who did not know of his treatment continue to adore him. Well yes, if only he didn’t have that nasty habit of being inconsiderate, lying, future faking, fast forwarding and trying to have two women at once, he’d be a total catch! 🙂
“Holding back their concerns or their secret ambivalence, you’re invariably ambushed by their announcement (if you get one) and their exit, all while insisting that there’s no one else (even though there is).” – Check. Never complained, never said anything was wrong, claimed some girl who he had no interest in was chatting him up but she was nothing. Two weeks later he admitted to trying to have us both and when I said I don’t think so, suddenly “you’re too good for me,” and exit. Could have told me that six months ago.
“In their mind, they’re not ‘that guy.’ They’re above that. They are doing it but it’s not cheating. It’s horizontal friendship or some other guff.” – Literally laughed out loud! I was astounded how he had all this disapproval and judgment for a sibling who was getting a divorce because he doesn’t believe in it and they were moving on too fast, but he could tell me I was who he wanted and was invested in and then go spend time with another woman (who was a few months into a divorce process herself) but this was acceptable on his moral radar. *Eye roll* Complete self-denial.
“Alarming level of coldness, lack of sensitivity” – Check. Very painful part of the process. One minute so sweet, wanting you, making plans.. suddenly feels like a stranger with no regard to how their actions affected you. Less than a week after our demise, “I miss talking to you, how’s life?”…. How’s life? I’ve been crying non-stop, thanks for asking. Wow.
“They refuse to accept that their image isn’t what they fight so hard to preserve because it could challenge their perception..they’ve used this image to avoid taking responsibility and being accountable…” – Yes! The excuses for his poor behavior during and whenever he spoke to me after it was chummy, friendly, as if nothing had ever transpired between us. He never mentioned/discussed ANY of it post “relationship.” I believe this is an attempt on his end to say, “See, I’m a good guy. Look how nice I am to her. We get along, we’re still friends, I didn’t do anything that bad, I’m alright!” My mistake.
“What’s also quite fascinating is that sometimes, when the truth starts to seep out, in order to make it now appear as if the dodgy deeds were justifiable, there’s a haste to make it known what a new and charmed life they’re leading.” – Good grief yes! I was so heartbroken as to how he was I realized EU for me for six months, still wanting to “take it slow” but he jumped right in with my replacement. It is painful! But just as Natalie says, I had to go wait a minute.. This guy wants to live in complete denial of himself and his actions, separate himself from any negative perception of him (even begged me not to hate him after his treatment).. PEOPLE ARE WATCHING. Of course he is going to make sure it looks like he wasn’t an assclown and he clearly made the right decision because look, she’s now his girlfriend. Obviously he does indeed have integrity. *Another eye roll* Disregard that he said in our break-up convo that this girl was still someone he was just hanging out with, it wasn’t “like that,” and he has no long-term interest in her, etc. So I realize it wasn’t some sweeping passion that led him to bail on me and immediately couple up although it’s maybe the tale he’d tell. Of course he’s the great guy who wasn’t a jerk rather he was just following his heart to a better option for him. No foul in that right? Admittedly it’s extremely irritating that they have found someone completely taken with them immediately while you’re still sorting through their wreckage.
Natalie’s been my sanity these last number of months. I do wonder at times how he spun the end of our “involvement” to those in his life – am I crazy? Needy? I questioned myself as this post talks about as I began to forget the ridiculousness and reflect on good feelings/memories. I went NC and he hadn’t attempted to get attention from me so with all that I thought maybe I was wrong/he wasn’t EUM. Then three months NC to the day, (two weeks ago) as I was pondering this I got a facebook message at 10:30 at night. “Hey there.” He’s still with her. Nope!
LJ, I could have written your post myself. I hear ya! 🙂
Oh and the infamous “Hey there” message makes an appearance! The one sign of chivalry and intent! How sweet of him to spend those previous 3 seconds typing such an eloquent conversation starter full of respect for his interlocutor. I am sure you were so flattered! Ugh.
Flush flush flush right to The Neverland where these types belong.
“How sweet of him to spend those previous 3 seconds typing such an eloquent conversation starter full of respect for his interlocutor.”
HAha, exactly so. Have experienced quite a few of them myself. V.
Or something like “I really care about you and don’t want to lose contact with you. You are important to me.” That was a text from the ex about 7 months ago, which was also 7 months past breakup.
“I really care about you and don’t want to lose you in my life” send when they saw you online in a messenger. You, by your own stupidity/naivete reply something, and they NEVER EVER reply back. Oh, that was enough of contact and care for you, my dear new friend?
I am not even angry. It’s laughable and pathetic how these types think they’re being generous and authentic and oh so unique while acting just by the book of AC as if they all run on rails – same words, same behavior, same everything.
“…it wasn’t some sweeping passion that led him to bail on me and immediately couple up although it’s maybe the tale he’d tell. Of course he’s the great guy who wasn’t a jerk rather he was just following his heart to a better option for him. No foul in that right? Admittedly it’s extremely irritating that they have found someone completely taken with them immediately while you’re still sorting through their wreckage.”
So much cHARM.
This link is to an advice column in which a recently divorced man wants to put his serious girlfriend on the shelf while pursuing another woman. Here is the fun part, he doesn’t want to sully his good name. http://www.slate.com/articles/life/dear_prudence/2015/04/dear_prudence_i_m_a_divorced_man_who_wants_to_date_a_lot_without_being_a.html
I think I know why his marriage broke up, he’s a serial cheater and leopards don’t change their spots. What a wanker!
I hope his gf kicks him in the whatnots when he tells her he wants to shag around for the rest of his life. What planet does this guy live on, he’s deluded.
I have met a person like the one in the link and I think there’s plenty of them in the world. He was not even divorced, only separated, and he had been living a life of ‘a series of girlfriends’/lovers for some 10 years already (he was in his mid-fifties).
What I can say in this regard is that I realised early on that this man was completely cut off from the depth of any feeling. He really thought there was nothing bad in his choice of life, he told me explicitly that everybody does it and that he actually is more honest than others for admitting it and playing it somehow more in the open.
I suffered quite a bit in this, but now that I am out, I can see that yes it was painful for me but eventually came to an end; but for him? He is still there. When I look at him I see an empty thing, a person devoid of any life spark. That is sad indeed, and I am lucky to have been the ‘victim’ and not the ‘perpetrator’ of that lifeless game (of course, better still not to participate at all). V.
All to true I’m sad to say V.
About 18 months ago when I was online dating I met one of these guys. He had been divorced for about 8 years and had had a string of girlfriends. All he wanted was a good time (sex). He was quite upfront and proud of being ‘honest’ about what he wanted. I said no thanks and to lose my number as I wasn’t interested. He was a bit stunned and couldn’t understand why I wasn’t going to jump into bed with such a great guy as him. I wasn’t going to waste my time explaining the obvious so I let all his calls go through to voice mail. He finally got the message and stopped calling. Far too many women on the dating web site who will fall into bed with him to bother about the odd one who says no. Next!
I met one of these guys years ago on an internet dating site. He had just been burned by a gf and was looking to punish other women. Thankfully he was pretty obvious as I was newly divorced and quite naive. He asked me to go away with him for the weekend within a week of talking on the phone! The second time he called me he called me by another woman’s name. After the 3rd date he wanted sex and I said no. He said that was a deal breaker for him. Yuk, good riddance.
Of course I wouldn’t give him the time of day now…I would have spotted him immediately and stayed away from him.
Funny, he recently joined a group I’m in and took his picture down…wonder if he thinks if I don’t see his face that I won’t make the connection! 😉
This is very interesting indeed. Because, as I see it, real honesty implies that you know what you are doing and are aware and clear on the consequences. So let’s say that I only want sex and I say it directly to your face: if I am honest for real, I am prepared for your ‘No’ as an answer, not baffled by it! These people really are ‘deluded’ as you say above. V.
I read that too! Complete assclown.
Five’ll get you ten that he insists on remaining ‘friends’ with the poor woman he’s been leading on. ‘Hey but I enjoyed your company and hey let’s not lose touch and hey I think you’re so great and hey let’s be friends…’ Because who doesn’t want to be friends with someone who’s just stabbed you in the back and eviscerated your life, right?
Six months time, he’ll learn that he isn’t as popular and successful with other women as he anticipated, and his ex-girlfriend starts getting texts from him warming her up as a Fallback Girl. He’ll use her for sex every other weekend while he trawls bars on the alternate weekends. Flip-flapping between ‘hey friend’ and ‘hey I miss you’ and ‘hey back off’ and blowing hot and cold will come naturally to his silver tongue, golden ego, and insouciant attitude. Six further months later we can look forward to welcoming this poor lady onto the boards at Baggage Reclaim.
Damn, Grizelda, I missed your comments. So on point and so painfully true!
@Truthinclarity,
Thank you for sharing that link. Anyone who dates this guy has an expiration date. She just won’t know it. So “she” will always be a novelty, not a serious commitment. Like a car on lease. Time to trade up for a fresh ride. But if he’s good at it, he’ll first make sure to take her for the ride of her life.
Good article as usual.Been there too,my ex did some horrendous things to me while I was going through one of the hardest times anyone has to go through. And even now she still insists on trying to be friends even though I’ve seen through her.
I’ve had the let’s try again but we both have to really make a go of it but what she failed to mention wad the fact she was still sleeping with other men at the time.
I’m now on month 3 of nc and learning to like myself again.
I had a surprise first date with a man who works in a neighborhood shop. We had conversation at a local cafe and it was an ok conversation and time. He asked me out for this weekend and I was agreeing to a second date -until he suggested he cook dinner for me st his house….
I cancelled saying I’m too busy for next 2 weekends and I am… going to Las Vegas alone next weekend for my birthday! Maybe I will see him in a few weeks, and because I don’t want a “date” at his house I will refuse one at his house. Period. If we develop anything, maybe I’ll go to his place. Not jumping into the sack, and I need to let him know that I hate texting… Really, two-word ed texts from a person I barely know is a waste of my time.
And to Hd,
I hope you are feeling better. Your story rang familiar with me, and I learned a lot about Narcissists, sex addicts, psychopaths, harem masters, and cheaters. Men who come on strong at the start and then blow hot and cold will be avoided by me now! So will the Control freaks, liars and cheaters, on and on…Like I’ve learned here, It takes time for people to unfold, and for many of these guys, they are like roulette balls stopping randomly when their time/ circumstance is up. Do the women that end up with them win the “Happy Ever-After”? No. They get the guy at the end of his game.
PREACH, sister! So true.
And let the church say, “Amen.” 😉
AMEN, SISTER AMEN!
..Ne’er a truer word was spoken than that pithy sentence. It rang in my ears better than a Baptist minister on a roll during a tent revival.
“It takes time for people to unfold, and for many of these guys, they are like roulette balls stopping randomly when their time/ circumstance is up. Do the women that end up with them win the “Happy Ever-After”? No. They get the guy at the end of his game.”
Yes. Time…you want to really see how a person is? Give them time. A guy named Clecky wrote a very definitive book on borderline mental disorders said: “behavior is everything”.
Take the time to observe behavior. Of course, its damn hard when we have needs that are aching to be fulfilled, and I’m not talking about the sex. It’s that feeling of family, love, acceptance, partnership…insert whatever needs/feelings you want here. But be strong, have the self discipline to really watch the other person behave when they are with you. Some people are very accomplished liars and BS’ers, but usually there a subtle signs something is not quite right, if lies or deception is involved. As they say, ‘give a man enough rope, and he’ll hang himself.’
Maybe I’ll tell you the whole story of Tank Girl and the Korean one day. Here’s the ending:
Tank Girl: “here’s a present for you, K.”
K: “Eh? Did you buy me my Lamborghini, baby?”
K:” Where is my gift? there is nothing in this box.”
Tank Girl: “Yup. That’s exactly what you are gonna get from me from this moment on, C”
K: “buuuut…but…why? what do you mean?”
Tank Girl: “I know exactly what you’ve been doing, and why you’re doing it. You tried to take my money with lies and I know all of them. Did you really think I was such an easy prey? You never read the 36 Strategies, did you? Pretty stupid for a guy who pretended to be a English Literature Teacher.”
K; “I not lie to you! I…”
Tank Girl: ” Oh really? here. Look at this. (throws photos with wife and child, Korean police record, marriage record, & registered report for wire fraud in Interpol) – Strategy #19 said the hunter is not known for his courage in hunting a tiger, but for the strength & courage in enduring the humiliation of being the deer…..Holang-i.” (Korean word for tiger, it was a pet name he liked)
K: silence. red face, then white. hands shaking as he turns the pages. tears begin to spill over and streak his face.
Tank Girl exits the room. And cancels his return flight to Korea.
Postscript: Tank Girl is taking a Looong break from any action and is doing self cleansing and meditation. She will return one day.
And yup. This really did happen.
Grrrrr
Wow. What strategies are you referring to? Apparently you saw flags in his behavior. Can’t tame a tiger.
Suki,
Basically we were off and on for a year after his divorce. He had only been divorced about four motnhs before we started seeing another. He told me he never felt this way about anyone, not even the ex. How wonderful and amazing I am. But it was just never all the way in- he admitted he was broken and was so terrified to trust again bc his wife cheated and left him for the man she cheated w. This was after her mother passed away and I do not think he was there for her emtionally. He moved out of state and went to visit there in September. i watched his dog for five days. he came home and put his house on the market and decided to move in December. He told e he thought he would have to wean himself off of me bc he knew moving would make it so hard. I brokw things off right then and said i didn’t want to have any more contact. After about a month we saw one another on his birthday after no contact. I come to find out the next wknd a girl he had met up there came to visit. He continued trying to see me, contact me. Even before he left told me he couldn;t stop thinking about me and all the chances I gave him and how bad he messed it up. How great I am and how he was just so upset he messed it all up. Well he moved In december but has been back and forth for almost three months time. He only has two friends up there so he was honest about how he has been seeing this other girl, but mainly bc he is lonely and she is just there. that they do not share the connection we have, that he isnt’ over me and has constantly wondered if he made the right decision in moving bc it meant leaving me. he says this other girl knows about me but obviously not the extent to that we have seen anther when he comes back. We stay up all night talking, go out, and he tells me it wasn’t like this even with the ex. He has even thought of asking me to move but where he lives is in the mountains and very rural. I love my job and just bought a condo. This new girl is a bartender and very manly, but she likes to hunt and do outdoorsy stuff like he does. Last week I saw pics of them on social media w his best friend up there and his wife. They were at a boxing class for his friends wife. I just am trying to understand if he will commit to her like he couldnt w me. I feel like he won’t consdiering their whole relatoionship he has been seeing me nehind her back and I know he has feelings for me. very strong ones. Im just hurt and it stung seeing these picture. Can a leopard ever changehis spots? especially one who is so messed up from the divorce and obviously other things in his life? I feel like he moved and it was such a rash decision to run away from his problems. Any help Suki and anyone else would be wonderful’
@Claire, there is a lot on here about him, but not that much about you. Are you happy with this situation? Some of us can’t do casual relationships that aren’t going anywhere. He seems like the sort of guy that is using the excuse of his divorce to play the field and really thats okay, he’s told you everything you need to know. What he’s doing is not morally wrong, and there is no point figuring him out anymore.
Figure yourself out. You’re hanging on. Its not his responsibility anymore since he’s laid his cards on the table, its yours. If you’re unhappy you need to make a choice. I think you should keep reading BR; there are plenty of posts on here about how we tend to hung up on the ‘other girl’ and whether he can commit to her or not. Its like you’re hanging on so that … he can fully reject you for this girl? I mean a healthy response would be to run a mile rather than be set up for this kind of competition. You’re having a long distance relationship with an EU man that has another girlfriend, still hangs out with his ex-wife, and has indicated that he isn’t interested in anything committed but oh you’re so wonderful and he keeps coming around since you havent said NO yet.
I think you have two options; be happy with whatever you have with him (which you’re not), or let go. There is no third option where this man magically turns into the man of your dreams.
You’re sticking around knowing everything that you already know. A man that can tell a woman he JUST MET that she’s better than the woman that he was married to – that man is a jerk, no class at all. You take it to mean that you’re special to him – really it just means he’s a jerk. If you were married to someone, you must have loved them more than the girl you just met. If you didn’t love them, then you’re unstable cuz you married someone without love. Either way – the man is a fool at the least, but more likely he is an opportunist. You’re letting him play you, and he’s going to keep doing it till as long as you let him.
I dont know what you’re getting from this relationship, but it seems as if you’re waiting for him to fully reject you, you’re waiting for worse, you’re allowing yourself to have no power at all. I dont know why you would do that. Please read the articles about no contact; you dont have to explain anything to him, you dont have to cause a scene, you just melt away from his life, stop calling, stop answering calls, stop sleeping with him. The man is a user.
If you go through the ‘why her, why not me’ phase, this site has tons of articles on that…
His behavior doesnt indicate that you’re unloveable. His behavior and your relationship indicates (sorry if it sounds harsh) that you’re passive – you’re waiting for him to (what? decide? he’s decided – he’s decided he likes having two or three women going at the same time, and you’ve passively agreed while internally stewing about it).
Cut toxic people out of your life. Treat yourself with respect because he isn’t going to and you know what – he doesnt owe you anything. YOU owe yourself.
[trust me, everyone on this site has been through what you’re going through, and came out stronger. This man has taught you important lessons – future faking and fast forwarding being among them. He’s taught you that just cuz you can talk to someone all night doesnt mean they aren’t talking to someone else all night the next night. A good time is just that – a good time. It doesnt mean a relationship, or commitment, or evidence of a decent person. And thats fine, we live and learn].
And for goodness sakes Claire, do NOT, I repeat, do NOT, quit the your job and give up your condo and go join this guy’s harem in the woods.
Do at least that one thing for yourself, until you get your head together. Trust me, you will thank me later, as you won’t be homeless.
Great point, April Showers!
Claire, Suki has written an excellent comment here. I wish I had a friend tell me this back when I was hurting the way you do.
This man is a user. No doubt about it. He’s using this other girl and tells you about it. He’s not dating her, she’s “just there”. So frigging what? As if her geographical location is a reason for him to jump her. I like how this type of lazy, almost reluctant users justify their behavior. And why is he telling you about this other girl? To lower your expectations.
Why are you spending your time even thinking of someone who’s giving you so little and is now managing your expectations even lower? Think of what you want in life. What YOU want, Claire. Now imagine this slimy ball of reluctance aka this man next to you in this picture of your future. How does it make you feel?
Do not settle for ambivalent men. Ever. You deserve someone who’ll not manage you down but will work very hard to prove they’re worthy of your trust, your body, time and emotions. But first, you need to give all this love to yourself.
Claire
I have to agree with everything Suki, Why and April Showers has said. There is nothing there for you with this guy and you can do much better. Chalk it up to experience and move on.
This is my experience and a great post. I believe that in the end this was exactly what happened to me. Thanks for the insight!
GEVA, this happened to you? what do you thin, did he really care for me? im just beyond lost and its so hard t o understand. suki please any advice insight from you too! or anyone else!!
I agree with Suki. It is a long-distance relationship based on fantasies (strong feelings from him as you are saying.). There are no actions on his part. He is already living his life where he is. And that’s what it is. I am sorry if it sounds rough. I just came to the terms of letting my long-distance friendship/relationship go. The man has shown not a single action in any of the 7-8 years we had known each other and maintained contact on and off (initiated by me). I am done and free. Choose to let go, Claire. And if you are important to him, you will know it through his actions.
Claire you have had the insights from a number of great posters above – why are you needing more? That’s a real question – how is it you are feel so low you can’t listen to your own insights or numbers of others in response to your’s?
Time to start listening to your real self or else.
‘Did he really care for me?’ is ‘DO I REALLY CARE FOR MYSELF’.
Good luck if you don’t care or listen to your real self because there is nothing else and nobody else who can or will rescue you – YOU have to do the work.
My father did this sort of thing to most of his other women. They were like sticks of gum, bought by the six pack. I watched him tell them how good they were going to taste, as he coaxed them into his mouth. But he just kept spitting them out wherever, whenever .
Interesting image. A true woman-hater. How are you dealing with all of this? I imagine it complicates quite a bit relationships with the opposite sex whether you are a woman or a man. V.
I guess we are all posting so much because it’s *so* common for men and women to do this. So if it is, should we just accept it?
Heck no, just understand that it does happen, and if it does happen to you, it’s not about YOU; it’s about the immature idiot that did the misdeed. …take care of yourself, etc.
No we should not accept this. True aristocracy (of spirit/mind/ideas/whatever you believe in) is rare. True strength and authenticity is rare. True spirituality is rare. All because it is hard everyday work. It does not mean we should stop striving for it. Perfection is never attainable for life is not static. But that does not mean we should stop reaching for the stars.
However, and I don’t mean to state this as some universal wisdom or a preachy truth (this is merely what I believe for myself and what I am trying to live up to in my own “new” life), we should accept other people as they are. In many cases it means not trying to force them to change their ways (i.e. stop being users and reach for the stars with us). Once we see they want to stay in the same crazy circle of user behavior, reluctance, “barely there” effort etc – it is our cue to exit. God knows I am not good at this but I am trying very hard. My therapist also told me that it’s fine to feel hurt by all this behavior that, as you say, is so common. But in therapy we cannot address why those people did it (I also wouldn’t want to spend my money analyzing other people), we can only get to the point why it hurt ME and what I should do to distance myself and recognize this type of behavior earlier.
*I guess we are all posting so much because it’s *so* common for men and women to do this. So if it is, should we just accept it?*
We’re posting so much because this website is for us committmentphobes who get attracted to other EUM(W). People who don’t struggle with the same issues as us – that is, have healthy self-respect and boundaries, don’t feel responsible for other people’s feelings and don’t have masochistic people pleasing tendencies – don’t even perceive EUMW, let alone get involved with them. I’ve already written once what my happily married friend said to me (before BR time) when I started to explain her my hot-cold saga. She angrily cut me short and said that this sounded to her like playing games and she didn’t play games.
I know many people in healthy relationships. I want to be in one, too, so I’m certainly not accepting “it”.
Hear, hear, Mephista. I second your thoughts.
In my mother’s “ladies who lunch” crowd, there is a woman named Joan whose marriage my mother envies. She talks about how close Joan and her husband are. How much caring she sees between them as husband and wife, and the family as a whole – I think there are 5 children. Joan and her husband do everything together. Joan now has emphysema and an oxygen tank, and her husband will not let Joan lift a finger around the house. The husband is starting to have memory issues, and Joan is supporting him in any way she can.
That is what commitment is. That is love that can be counted on. Not these waste of energy fly-by-night couplings that we commitment-phobes specialize in.
Elgie, thank you for sharing the story of Joan and her husband. I think one of the issues is that we don’t hear enough of these stories. I think there are much more families like these but, on the one hand, they are not praised enough (and mostly catastrophic relationships get coverage in the movies and on screen in general) and, on the other, we, after our own painful experiences, look around and see how prevalent the dysfunctional relationship model is now and we might set our own bar even lower. Thank you so much for sharing this family’s story. Just reading about them makes one feel empowered to look for a supporting and an equal partner and not a crumb dispensing EU.
Interesting Elgie and why. I found myself fantacizing about a man the other day – horror! – and so I wrote a list of what I wanted/needed in a lover for real – to my surprise without consciously knowing, my list is now one of values and behaviour I am looking for/need in a person rather than blue hair and green eyes etc…like it used to be.
I think you are right we are taught by such repetitive behaviour/ constant media – to focus too much on the aspirational relationship illusion and not on what we really need for a really good relationship and a happy ending to our own stories.
he is not hanging out with his ex wife, Suki. She actually just got engaged not even two years after their divorce to the guy she cheated with. Probably bc he is a jerk and was emotionally unavailable to her as well. I don’t think I am waiting for him to reject me bc that would just kill me. but yes, I think in some way I am waiting for him to choose me. I need to walk away and go no contact like you said. I guess it has just been so hard for me to believe this isn’t something I did, that there is soemthing wrong w me you know? I was so great to him and it just really hurts and is beyond confusing. The worst part is not to sound conceited but I could probably have any guy I wanted. And here I am focised on thiss jerk 🙁
Sometimes Claire, when I was still trying to figure out the ex-EUM from last year, and was wringing my hands with the drama of it all and my own manufactured pain, I would email my friend and say ‘I’m a fool, please slap me’ and she would text back, ‘heres a virtual slap for you’. Please text a good friend, and ask for some virtual wake ups.
You say his ex got married ‘not even’ two years – whats so ‘not even’ about it? Why do you have a pony in this race? Why are you so in this drama? Were you in his marriage? Did you see what happened? Sure, she might have cheated. Maybe he did too, its not like he’ll tell you.
God, this man has no class at all, and you have bought all his silliness as truth, as some sort of manifesto of reality. It is all bogus my friend. It is his version of reality + its that little version he can stand to tell you without feeling total hatred at himself for his failed marriage (come on, who likes to be divorced or broken up? we’re all walking wounded from our pasts).
Heres the truth – we are all, all of us, all of us, full of crap. Seriously. Full of it. Some people are just weaker, less self-aware than others, they are lying even to themselves. In case you wonder what the point is to society in that case – the point of becoming an adult is learning to trust yourself and others, so that you KNOW when you’re full of it and can switch it off with those you love, and with yourself. Compared to where I was 10 years ago, I’ve figured out a lot about who to trust, and I’ve learnt how to trust myself, and I’ve learnt to not lie to myself or to those I care about (I dont mean lies like liars lie, I mean lies like self-deception, not being vulnerable enough to be really authentic and present and kind. Because love and kindness are truths).
‘“Above all, don’t lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love.” [I didn’t say that, its Dostoevsky].
Rejection from a fool will not ‘kill you’. Please keep perspective here 🙂
Oh Suki,
Your quote,”Heres the truth – we are all, all of us, all of us, full of crap.” and Dostoevsky’s quote are timeless.
I was about to write a post about this, but I will just say here is that we are all full of crap ourselves. Indeed. We blame people, get irritated at them, judge them, ridicule them, laugh at them. Do we think we are any better? No.
We are all messed up. We are all here in one spot. Learning to rise up. Making our best to get better. Let’s keep trying.
Beautifully put Suki.
Thank you all so much for your comments. I feel a lot better. I knew all of this in my heart but I am just having a tough go at it at the moment. I feel so strong so much of the time and then bam I just have a bad day. It hasn’t been easy but in the end I know I have SO much to offer and he doesn’t deserve me AT ALL. I a an honest, loving person and he has proved time and again he is not. And this girl is just going to go through exactly what I did.
Claire,
I am so glad you understand it. You deserve love, care, and respect. Do not wait for this guy anymore. Live your life. And if he wants you, you will see him at your door.
Best Wishes.
“And if he wants you, you will see him at your door.”
Don’t answer. 😉
That’s a good one:)
Here is my new story about reappearing and smelling roses. Not related to a breakup but to reappearance.
Maybe some of you remember I had a two-date story with a guy from where I work. He is an executive level official. Not my boss or no one I even see for weeks in a big corporate office. Travels abroad all the time and to different states as well. Very busy. We saw each other just twice in the last 2 months. Either he was out of town/state/country, or he was spending time with his kids.
He recently contacted me (by text) apologizing that he is so busy and that the traveling schedule will ease up soon. he asked me out and said he can’t wait to see me and very sorry for not contacting me. The work got the best out of him.
Here is where I am confused about trusting that person just ONE MORE TIME. I hardly know him. We are not even dating technically. I can’t get to know him at all. NOthing yet happened really yet. So I decided to see him. I am on guard and my defense and red flag scan is highly tuned. I understand partially (not excusing him of anything) that he is an executive level professional and travels non-stop. Secondly, we are not even dating. I don’t know what I am to expect or not to expect at this point. However, I do know that on this next date I am going to clarify couple points. Whether he is with someone and when the last relationship ended. And what is his traveling schedule like in the next few months. Although I am very ok with taking it slow, this seems way too slow to the point I am losing interest. There has to be some balance. I am in no rush anymore, but would like to get to know the person better.
I will keep you updated. And I appreciate all the wise ladies’ insight. Dating world is confusing. And exacerbated by the fact that my defense wall is ultimate high nowadays, which maybe is a good thing.
I am sorry this is off the subject, but I think that’s similar to reset button and him coming back after couple weeks like nothing happened. He exhibits some future faking and fast forwarding already. Inviting me on a trip in the fall. I wanted to laugh out loud at that. Thank you, Nat. Come on, dude, you don’t even know me. What amazes me is that 40-year old guys say stuff like that. Don’t people ever grow up?
I don’t know whether it’s good or bad… My glasses now are grey-tinted.
My answer to everything: show me your actions. Will give him last chance number 3 date and I am folding afterwards.
So nice to be free!
Sofia,
I’m one of very few female execs in a large corporation and as such I do have to travel. However, I’d say that both me, other females and males who are very family oriented aim to travel as little as possible. All jobs are different but I definitely observe a lot of male execs being very extreme in their travel, and I always kind of think that some of them do it to escape something. I’d be really interested to hear how things go for you Sofia and hope you have found a genuinely busy exec and not an avoidant one.
Sofia, I remember this story. Mostly because he sounds EXACTLY like someone I know and worked with. I hope it’s not him 🙂
Regarding travelling often, and I am only speculating here based on my experience and what I saw about this person’s relationship with his ex girlfriend and family: in many many many cases they chose to travel more. It’s not like they put their hand up whenever the opportunity rises. No, they put themselves in this position letting everyone know that when someone needs to travel out of the country/state, it’s gonna be them. And only them. They are the most qualified. Others are unequipped. It can be upping their authority as the best communicator who is the only one who can talk to people from different backgrounds or cultures, or, even, that he is a light packer and has great navigational skills. It’s their choice.
I don’t want to get too personal but we work with many executives and big business owners and 99% of those frequent flyers type are being away from home on purpose. The remaining one percent actually takes a few days off and shuts his phone down just to be with his family when he comes back. You can see that he really likes his job but he’s also tortured by being away for days or weeks or even sometimes months. He’d sometimes fly his family to see him. I think, as often, it’s the difference of intent as manifested in action – one uses travel as a way to escape from being too intimate, and the other finds ways how to still stay connected and be a part of his family while being away. It just depends on what that person really wants.
It is possible that I am projecting here so I apologize in advance. I can only speak from my experience. I should also say that exEUM was also travelling frequently. 2-4 times a month. Then he’d come home, text something like “Miss you. But so tired from travel. Need to stay home for a while. To hibernate” which meant that if I wanted to see him, then it was my job to make an effort and come to his place. He’d of course might later see a friend for a quick beer. But that’s not tiring at all!
I think the reality of someone who travels often is that they often choose to travel and be unavailable during these periods. And even when you end up together, as in dating, you’ll always come second after his travel plans. And we need to think if that’s something we envision being a part of our life if we end up in a serious relationship with this person.
This was my experience so far.
This is totally unrelated but your words “My answer to everything: show me your actions” brought a memory up to life. When I just started reading BR a few years ago, and still with exEUM but in a lot of pain (and still largely in denial), I tried to implement this “show me your actions”. I wanted to try to switch the sound off and see what actions spoke. And the result was very surprising. Even for my in denial self. The (now) exEUM, after I had said “show me your actions” would go into those long tirades about how he was giving me the most effort, more than to anyone in his life (including his gf), and how it was never enough and that he is fearing it will never be enough for me (hello, guilt tripping me!) And then I’d ask clarifying questions (I learnt something after all): what do you mean specifically? And he’d say: I am always available to you on the phone! I always text you back. Yes, sometimes it can take hours but I have to work and you don’t understand this (because I don’t understand the concept of work? or…?). I always email you back!
So for him, his being available and being there for me as manifested in his actions meant that he would text and email me. For him this already was exhausting (once the first two months of fast forwarding wore off). For him these crumbs were actually exhausting action. This was his bar for “action”.
We of course all know how crazymaking these talks are. Especially for those of us who were already brought up by parents who’d teach us to doubt our own judgement. So I jumped right on it. Tried to teach myself to be satiated with his definition of action. But IT DID NOT WORK. No matter how much I listened to him describing himself being attentive and trying so hard to “soothe” me and “be there” for the needy me, I was still in deep pain. We just define action very very differently. So he was angry with me. I am still not sure why (not the superficial reasons, the real ones). And when we broke up, he continued to use his definition of “actions” as a proof of how much he tried and how much he gave me but I was never satisfied. I am sure he thinks this way too.
I am ashamed to admit that I was so deep in denial at the time that I somehow “forgot” that I felt all this pain because I wanted his actions to be actions, not texting or emailing. I wanted actions that would make us exclusive. I wanted the action of moving in together. The action of being his one and only. The action of not being afraid of being seen together. The action of meeting his family. The action of taking vacations together.
I am sorry for this sudden outburst. It just scares me now, how attuned one has to be. That you cannot just say “I listen to actions”. But when you hear them say “Oh, I do to. I am proving my affection towards you in my actions”. But you also have to dig deeper, to ask yourself “what exactly is this person doing for us? how does their effort look like?”. You know, always be mindful.
Why, I have a question: has this guy ever been upfront in saying “No” to you about any of your ‘requests’? V.
V., that’s an excellent question. I have to answer it honestly: I was a coward and implicitly felt that if I ask either one of those questions, then he’s gonna get mad, stonewall me, disappear for 2 weeks, then come back pushing the reset button. Normally it’d “coincide” with his business trips. Normally, I’d be put in such a rigid timeframe that I often had to choose – are we gonna have sex now, or a dinner, or talk (and he’ll get sad and disappointed (in whom?). It was always about having to squeeze only either one of those.
I’d like to point out though, the reason I even dared into the direction of those was because at the beginning he talked (yes, I know better now than to listen to this blah blah) about us living together in his apartment. About how he dreams of coming home to me and what we’ll be doing and how he’ll take me for ice cream during hot summer nights. And blah blah blah. And that his sisters will like me. Makes my skin crawl typing all of this.
Closer to the end I started asking all of them non stop. It sounds crazy but I’d start crying while asking this (including in public) and he’d just stare at me. Sometimes he’d approach me and tell me “I just want to hug you. Come here” and then say nothing. So in about 2 years he has not directly answered any of those “requests”. When I pushed and pushed, he’d punish me with stonewalling, so if I wanted to spend any time with him I knew I had to “behave” and not ask those things. Yes, that was me. And yes, I really thought this was The Prize of The Century embodied in that man. If it was not for BR and all the advice and support here including our fellow commenters, and my new therapist, I’d have never crawled of that hole.
Ok I see. I didn’t mean for this question to be a sort of condemnation to you, I am sorry to have prompted an ‘I was a coward’. I only wanted to understand the dynamics better, but on the other hand I see that there is nothing new in there, this is/was classical eum’s behaviour for his part as thoroughly described on this site. Best wishes to you and thanks for answering. V.
Why
the only one putting in the action was you! Taking care of him and yourself, self soothing, picking yourself up, not wanting to be needy…..this is all so exhausting that I am exhausted just reading it all.
Best wait for the man to chase you…want you…that’s what I figure, I’m just too plain tired for all these games. End of story! Glad he’s an ex!
whatever, you’re absolutely right in your assessment. it’s a typical story. funny how at the beginning it was the hardest thing of me to accept, how typical both his and my behavior were. how all of this was done before. now I find it to be a relief.
Why,
Reading this post of yours brought some things back to me. I too was told “you get more of me than anyone else in my life.” I would actually say “well how can that be when you don’t come home to me and spend weekends with me?” He would say he spends more time at home but he doesn’t talk to them like he talks to me. In a funny way I think what he said to me was true, but of course it wasn’t anywhere near enough, and I believe it used to exhaust him throwing out crumbs.
After complaining because his initial two months of blowing hot was over and I was fighting for crumbs he once got mad with me and said “yeah well welcome to a mature relationship with xxxxhis name.” He believed two months was a mature relationship? Yeah, maybe that was just him maxed out with all he can give. It all gets me back to feeling sorry for his wife and family and glad I’ve escaped.
Wow this site is good therapy, I’d been feeling sad and missing him yesterday, which I can’t for the life of me understand why since I hate his guts, but remembering the crumbs and relating with you Why has brought me back to a good place.
Colly, Why, I think you have very good points and it’s nice to read it all so nicely and clearly put. I totally agree and am very glad to have found likeminded people on this issue (I am speaking in general, not specifically about Sophia’s case). Best, V.
Thanks V. I should also add that although I try not to travel so much because of my daughter, I have sometimes welcomed a trip and recognise the feeling of needing to escape. When I’ve been deeply entrenched in obsessing over exMOM or feel suffocated by myself not dealing with my own issues it sometimes feels good to slip on the business persona full time and be someone else for a bit.
@Colly: Of course it feels good. And it is good. The point is not to demolish a defense mechanism but to make good use of it. If you are aware, you use escapism for temporarily relief while gathering your forces for some ‘battle’. But the chronic EUMs are DISCONNECTED from this awareness, if you point it out they won’t recognize the issue as pertaining to them. That is the problem. So don’t feel guilty about what you do. Best wishes, you’ve come a long way already. V.
Sofia, It sounds like you have made up your mind to see him again, but I’m afraid you are setting yourself up to be hurt/ disappointed/rejected. Sabotaging yourself. He has shown you who he is. He is “busy”. He isn’t making an effort; he is lazy. He is making excuses. His actions are pretty much non existent. He has shown you who he is and what he is willing to offer: crumbs and BS.
Please read what you wrote about him and pretend that someone you love/care about wrote this instead about a guy they were considering going out with again…what would you say to them? Would you say that is a guy they should spend any of their precious time/energy/consideration/heart on?
“I am sorry this is off the subject, but I think that’s similar to reset button and him coming back after couple weeks like nothing happened. He exhibits some future faking and fast forwarding already. Inviting me on a trip in the fall. I wanted to laugh out loud at that. Thank you, Nat. Come on, dude, you don’t even know me. What amazes me is that 40-year old guys say stuff like that. Don’t people ever grow up?”
Sofia, this is all “my opinion” and not worth any more than that, but, I think he is in search of a no-strings lay. Texting you? If he had real interest in you, he’d find time for actual conversation. As Nat says, they are not the busiest man in the universe.
Please don’t have sex with him. You’ll only hurt yourself. You are already pulling the wool over your own eyes by using the term “taking things slow”. He’s not taking things slow, he’s just killing time with whomever is available. Stop being available. I wish you had said NO to his latest request.
And this “clarifying conversation” you want to have….what is that all about? He does not owe you a roadmap to what the future will be like with him. It comes across as seeking guarantees. It’s putting the responsibilty of taking care of your well-being on HIS shoulders. That is a horrible place to put that responsibility. It is the WRONG place to put that responsibility.
Your instincts are already telling you that this guy is showing no REAL interest, but you want to hang hope on him anyway for some reason.
Just let him go. Yes, before it even gets started. Save yourself some angst.
Actually, if I were in your shoes, there are a couple of museum exhibits I want to see in my city. I’d request that he take me to one of those exhibits as my date. I mean, he could be good enough for company. But there’d be no sex on the agenda. And if he countered with a different offer, I’d say No Thanks.
Sofia – Why do you keep picking up men who are so ‘brilliant’ and ‘responsible’ (read top executives) – THAT HAVE NO TIME FOR YOU? – and YOU accept this as a potential serious relationship?!!!!! in the hope it will be rewarded??? or not possibly?
Twice in two months?!!!!
Is this how much attention you pay to yourself?!!!!
When are you going to give yourself the time of day?!!!!
YOU NEED A REAL LOVER SOFIA – if this is what love looks like to you – there is nothing anyone can say.
I feel disappointed.
Hey Colly and Why and Veracity – all together, on 3, what we want to say to Sofia is: “Molly, you in danger, girl!”
Colly, Why, V., Oona, Elgie R, and Veracity! Thank you for your responses and support. I know it’s a mistake that I accepted a 3rd date. I won’t cancel it because it’s tonight and he already confirmed with me this morning (by text) to make sure I am still going. And I won’t have a clarification conversation either. Exactly, Elgie R., there is nothing to clarify. I already know this will not work for me.
There will be no sex. I don’t do casual sex and not interested in sex with him or anyone else without a relationship. That’s an absolute no for me.
Well, the bottom line is he doesn’t have time and won’t have time to date and develop a relationship with me. I am not satisfied with it. I need real conversations on phone, in person, and frequent ones. It was my weakness to try just one more time. To try what? All the red flags were there and still are there. You are all so right. Yes, if he is avoiding life and his feelings by traveling, he can go ahead. I won’t join. I need someone available whom I can grow with. This is not a candidate.
You are all so caring and concerned. Brought tears to my eyes! Yes, if I read what I wrote and imagine it’s my friend, I would ask her, “So you are going out with him?” Probably for an ego stroke, to feel I am still attractive? 🙁 How shallow of me. More work to do.
I am not setting up myself for pain and disappointment. I already see him for who he is. I treat this date just as that. Night out with someone to chat. Company. Someone I won’t see again. Actually, waste of time, now that I think of it… I will finish it short to go home earlier.
Thank you for your opinions. Objective views are so important. It’s easy to lose it a little bit being single for 14 months and feeling good to go out. But it’s all shallow, I know.
I am firmly in the reality. I don’t worry for myself. A bit waste of time tonight, but it’s ok. Mistake. It stops right there. I had to try and dip my toes in the water. Apply BR skills, not perfectly, but I am trying. The end result I protect myself and won’t end up in pain again. No more.
Thinking of you, Sofia. I have faith in you!
Thank you, Say Something.
As you see all is well. I am proud that I have grown that much in just a year. Yes I stumbled and erred and still do, but the outcome is so different now from what it would have been years ago!
Sofia, thank you for replying. Girl, your sole reply to our messages above has so much class, in fact, much more class than the whole 3 months of “actions” of this exec you describe.
I am sure you’ll be fine. I applaud you for being so honest here and with yourself.
Thank you, Why.
It’s so great to feel free to write out your soul here, so to speak, and get so much wonderful support, feedback, tough love and all the warmth. What a wonderful community we have here. Thank you, Nat and everyone.
I better finish up on my dating subject because I know it doesn’t pertain to the article. Not directly anyway. I need to follow the rules of the blog and I slipped. My apologies.
Thanks, Elgie and everyone! 🙂
I am fine and will be fine.
No worries! I know what to do now and going forward. Your opinions and advice are very helpful!
Sofia,
Is the top exec thing you trying to right wrongs from the past? What is it about this type that hooks you in? Do they remind you of anyone?
I spend my days around them and most of them I find quite repellant, but sometimes I find you get these charming ones that talk about how much they love their kids and they do seem quite magnetic. Then actually most seem to be the coming up roses types/narcs who keep their trophy wives at home chained to the kitchen sink.
Colly, I second that. Except that it’s the type of male execs who talk about how charming their kids are and how they’ve been with their spouse forever AND THEN jump on their high horse of moralizations judging someone who’s had an affair or got divorced or has not been married “at their age” – shortly speaking, those saint types – I get repelled and have to make a quick round to get coffee or to the lady’s room and accidentally “miss” half of their monologue. ExEUM was like this as well. Never shuts up about cheating and how awful it was. Bleh.
Why,
Absolutely, I do find those guys who talk a lot and sit in judgement are the worst offenders. I’m not sure how they don’t see them as having an affair as the same thing? They only see the bit where someone (like them) judges them and see nothing of what they do to anyone else. My ex was just like this as yours was.
Colly,
It didn’t have anything to do with his position. We share a common background and culture. I won’t go into details to stay and preserve being anonymous here. But there was something that attracted me to him, and I thought I wish he weren’t that high of a status, because in the very beginning I felt it would be a deterrent. He travels too much and also, somehow I felt that he looked at me from above. Like I am somewhere in the low class and he is an upper class. He has that attitude, confirmed yesterday for sure.
Wow… people out there. Dating is quite an endeavor. And interesting one too.
Hello Sofia I am hoping you got past Sir Barely There the other day without sacrificing too much of your integrity and are now able to write in ink on YOUR list of things you want in a lover:-
1) a man who is able to be there for me, as I am for him
That list is where we really become safe to go back out there – it is our executive power because it becomes more difficult to welch on ourselves and be pushed over, change our goal posts – and not put our self and our needs first.
Good luck lady – you wobbled like a toddler but my faith is restoring and you’ll be walking in no time – keep going…
Oona,
You are right! Yes, like a toddler! Just learning how to walk! But I did it! Walked my first path on my own! With the help of the community here as well.
I am over the experience and just have an unpleasant aftertaste left. But no ruminations or regrets or anything. Just nothing left!
I know what you mean about changing the goal posts. There is still almost like an automatic response, “oh let me wait and see some more,” but the new me took over. I know what I need. A man who is there for me just like I am for him. Very well put. An equal, caring for each other relationship.
Halleluja and amen ladies. Sofia, please please please for your own sake listen to the wise women who have told you to run away from this guy and don’t look back!!!
Sheesh woman!
Poppy,
I am running away as fast as I can!! His text (if you read below what I wrote) scared me actually. It’s controlling, finger pointing, blaming, guilt tripping, and kind of crazy making I think. It was a joke. I apologized after his text and expressed my sincere apologies that I didn’t’ mean to hurt him. Was just a joke on my part. Hopefully I will never hear from him again. I had a date like that few years ago. He was psycho and famous for passive aggressive texts like that from nowhere seemingly and I was tormenting myself thinking what I did wrong. This time I just brush it off. I did nothing wrong. Nothing irredeemable anyway for a good guy to forget about it. Not in this case. Scary people.
This is great awareness sofia.
ok, but don’t sleep with him is my advice.
Sofia, no, most of them do not ever grow. I think it’s pain that makes you stop and say “this isn’t working for me” and work on yourself and a lot of guys either always find enough women for the shallow types of relationships they want that they never experience enough pain to want to change, or they honestly just believe their relationship experiences are always the women’s fault, so why would THEY change? My grandfather was married 3 times, cheated on all his wives, had a million girlfriends, none of them lasting very long. He was that way until he died. He never changed. And if you had asked him the last day of his life if he would have changed anything, he would have said “I never would have gotten married.” It’s tempting to think “Oh, this guy is over 40, he must be safe,” or whatever, but ask yourself, what is a guy over 40 doing still single? It’s different for men. If they WANT commitment, they can find it. If he’s over 40 and hasn’t been in a committed relationship, it’s because he didn’t want it.
Hi Diane,
Yes, some people never change I guess. This guy is divorced. I know what he needs. A woman who is impressed with his status, money, position, his huge house and his huge ego and whatever else huge he has. A woman who wants to have all the “perks” and be ok with the status quo – visiting friends with benefits – “natural flow and developing slow things” (as he told me yesterday). Someone who is ok with shallow relationship, being taken out, dined and wined, having sex and bye until next month/couple months. Slow “development.” That’s not me. I have different needs. I am sure he won’t have problem finding exactly what he is looking for. Sadly, if it were me 3 years ago or so, I would have stayed hooked to him and played this kind of role, so that’s why I am saying there must be quite a few women (younger , which is a plus for him) that will go for this kind of “relationship.”
Feels so good to finally see things and people for what they are. But it doesn’t stop surprising me, how and why can people be ok with this kind of shallow relationships? It’s just better being alone.
When I told him that there is a fine balance between taking it slow (which is great) and no progress at all, to the point where things are just stalled and either or both lose interest. I told him straight up, “No one is so busy that they can’t make a call.” Oooohhh… he did NOT like that statement. As well as my direct question, “Are you seeing other people? Just curious and if you are it’s fine, but would like to know.” Didn’t like that at all. Said I am too serious now and overanalyzing things. Yep. I almost laughed to myself.
A great date. So clarifying. Awesome. Freedom.
RUN.
Sofia, Ha, too serious and analyzing things. Translation: You’re asking questions I prefer not to answer because if I answer them truthfully, you are not going to stick around. Gotta love when that happens! At least he showed himself and didn’t lie!
Wow you rock lady!
This article describes my entire family…in fact all my relatives! No wonder I hated growing up in my family and their community, it was a constant smell of Au de BS!
And of course most men I dated were like this too, saw themselves as nice guys and /or were big time into image management. They were in denial and I was their messenger…and that pretty much ended most, if not all of my relationships with one of us ending it. Thanks Nat, you summed up my entire history of relationships! Now what?
…how does one live authentically and find authentic partners when one is surrounded by this Eau de BS?
I’d say that one clears the foul-smelling air that surrounds him/her. I’d say that one minimizes contact with people participating in the BS to the point of NC if necessary. V.
When you see these Eau de BS people coming let them slide off you like Teflon. They all have that certain whiff about them, smile nod and ignore them. I don’t even bother engaging with them anymore.
Not all people are full of BS and if you start being a lot more selective about who you hang out with it gets so much easier to spot the clowns, male or female.
Just be your own true authentic self first and the rest will follow.
Pauline, that metaphor with Teflon is great! I am gonna use this visualisation in my next personal encounter with a EU person for sure.
LJ – love this:
“….whenever he spoke to me after it was chummy, friendly, as if nothing had ever transpired between us. He never mentioned/discussed ANY of it post “relationship.” I believe this is an attempt on his end to say, “See, I’m a good guy…..”
Many posters here know my story during the past 3 mths of finding BR and going NC (MM who was visiting , told me on arrival he was going to be ‘hosting’ another guest, ie anOther Woman who he’d had sex with for 2+yrs, in town later that week. which I know wasn’t great as he was already cheating on his wife…).
I remember laughing out out LOUD, when, the morning after the Other Woman left his bed and flew home to her own country, he emailed me to say “hey how are you, hope you’re having a great holiday, so jealous of your trip”.
Id left town for 2 weeks to avoid them, on insistence from a friend with whom I stayed. My initial reactionwas “hurray, thats what I wanted! A sign he cared and might actually want to still see me!”.
I stupidly thought I could carry on being friends. But as I also read here, the whole denial/justification of the lies, and lack of respect (Loved the Doestoevsky quote…) just got tiring: as Why says I got tired of the whole scenario. I have not seen him since (we live in different cities though). He didnt have an excuse apart from saying he “owed other woman”, and that we were only “casual” so it didnt matter.
So I was DEFINITELY at fault too, but I sudenly found it scary that he seemed to really believe it was all okay: the cheating on his wife (he didn’t see it that way, he felt justified in cheating due to his high stress job/travelling); not giving a toss about my feelings or the consequences of his behaviour on me (after insisting he cared oh so much); and lying to treat me worse to kind of’keep’ me. It seemed like that was his skewed messed-up reality.
Once I saw the dark, controlling emotionally f/ed up side of him, I felt sorry for him but I was genuinely a bit scared – it was more than just eau de BS and roses. I feel sorry for him but also kind of scared, like I have seen a side of someone I wish I had not, which petrified me. As I acknowledged that fear of him, I knew I had to go NC.
that last post is for Sofia – don’ sleep with him.
Whatever,
And everyone else who is following my story:
I didn’t sleep with him. And there was no hint from him/no asking or any of that nature. I didn’t and do not want a sexual intimacy unless and until I get to know the person and am in a relationship. That’s my rule and my boundary.
The date went well.
He is traveling yet again in April and May.
Clearly unavailable. I leave it that and choose me.
Thanks all for your support. So needed and appreciated.
Actually, the date didn’t go well. Now that the buzz wore off and I see it clearly AND after I received a SHOCKING (well after all not so shocking) passive-aggressive text (does he know how to dial a phone?).
Lesson number one, when you see a red flag at first (and I did after our first meeting and during the first meeting). RUN. Don’t give it 2-3 more chances to see if the flags will clear or become green or whatever.
I dont’ know why I said the date went well. I think I congratulated myself on not sleeping with him and not wanting too and internally ending it with him. Closure.
So during the 3rd date I felt uncomfortable with him at times. Tense. He talked about himself a lot (not much about me was asked), about money, saving money, spending money, his corporate perks, expensive first class tickets, etc etc to show how big and important he is. His attitude was IRRITATING. Condescending, snobbish, “cool” , like he is some kind of Greek god.
We did kiss and hugged more than innocently but didn’t make out. I did joke about couple things, maybe a bit loosely and with sarcasm, but because I knew at that point I already disrespected him and don’t want to see him again. He joked a bit too like when I went to the restroom, he said I will go with you. He headed to a man’s restroom of course, but his joke and mine was that he is going WITH ME. But that’s ok, I brushed it off and he did too. After he brought me home, in his car he touched my breast and I moved his hand away gently. I said “going home or somewhere else?” very jokingly and teasingly. He said he goes home. And after that I receive the most guilt tripping passive aggressive text that he didn’t disrespect me and didnt’have expectations and I insulted him with my inappropriate remark.” Oh wow! And he got upset at me being DIRECT with him asking if he is dating anyone else? So he typed that in the text too, saying, that “you were direct with me asking about that and I am direct with you that this didn’t go well at all”.
OK. I am a bad guy now. I am glad this is over so fast. Back then I would have gotten involved and ruined myself to pieces. Now I am done. I guess I needed this 3rd date to confirm any doubts I had.
Thank you all. You all could see clearly what he was. I had not been sure until last night.
Oh well he got offended that you ‘rejected’ him and wanted to get back at you. What a gentleman.
On the other hand, I am surprised that you can sustain being so flirty with someone you don’t like. Or don’t know for that matter. Kissing?? Oh boy I feel old, I wouldn’t have kissed him given his credentials.
Also I am not sure that this amount of flirting and innuendos, sexual and non, can lead to anything good. Sounds very far from genuine. But congrats on getting out so quickly and really feeling the impact of it in the aftermath – that is some achievement! V.
Thank you, V! Yes, flirty and innuendos on my part was based on pretty much already built-up cynicism about him and knowing this will not go anywhere, so I just picked up (wrong move I know) the old habit of mine (which die hard, hmm) and was being flirty. But inside all the way I knew it was over and nothing would happen.
Yes, feels empowering to be out quickly! I learned one thing for sure that pay attention to the very first flag and STOP right there. But that’s ok. We learn.
Sofia, the date indeed didn’t go well … for him. He did have expectations, would have tried something if you were up for it and I’m quite sure there’s some kind of friend (or rather two) with benefits somewhere in the background. But you didn’t play his game, so the date wasn’t good for him. Nat has post somewhere that there should only be one chance but I do hope he took you to a fancy restaurant (since he’s so seccessful and important), that you ordered the most expensive thing on the menu and pigged out. ????
Hi Mephista, Hahaha, you made me laugh.
In fact he didn’t buy me any substantial food. Just one plate of an appetizer which we shared! So I was pretty much kind of hungry for 5-6 hours that night. Luckily I ate something before we went out. He was looking for ways to save money even when taking me out! The restaurant was not expensive but quite nice. And I made the plans to go there because he didn’t make any plans at all.
What a nightmare actually of a date. You are right. He felt rejected and was expecting that I will give him what he wanted although he didn’t ask for it directly. People who don’t have expectations and don’t disrespect don’t have a need to say about it in the midnight text. I am so glad this is over.
What kind of a date is that? Why didn’t you order dinner, and why didn’t he make plans? It doesn’t make any sense to me. When he asked you out was does “out” mean?
What a no class jerk!
Yes, it is quite crazy but I have seen people like that before. He is certainly not the poorest of them. And the question is not even money. We could split. It’s the idea of how the date should go. How can he even find a woman to sleep with having such an arrogant attitude!? Wow, the nerve. But I am not surprised. Younger, insecure, lonely women – they are so many of them out there. They will go for anything to get some attention, “loving,” sex, company, and building fantasies out of nothing. I was one of them.
Younger women do not generally know what we know – that he is not all that great – that’s why they head for younger women but there is more to love than an ego stroke – no matter what they make it look like. I actually feel shades of feeling sorry for him – what a sad world he inhabits and inflicts on other people.
Thank you for posting your second – it was bad after all post – I have had this a number of times myself in my life and I thought I was alone in doing that.
That meal is so a mirror of your ‘relationship’ he left you hungry!!!!!! with all that money he has – that date did go well but not in the way you expected – before you would have put up with this – heck not even seen it – now you are aware and going in eyes open – well done!! and you also learned in the moment you see things through rose tinted glasses – only later with distance is the truth revealed and you can see the early red flag.
….if only you could text him back and tell him
‘I am sure you are amazing but I am not interested.’
Block texts, calls, meetings, go non contact etc…
Focus on you.
Thank you, Oona.
I think I won’t even need to worry about blocking him. He has his supply I am sure. Attractive, tall, has money, status. “Single.” What a catch.
You say in your previous post you feel somewhat sorry for him. Yes, me too! I have this feeling too. He must be so lonely getting some artificial, instant gratification. Oh well, that’s his life to figure out.
It is wonderful to not have the rose tinted glasses. This experience makes me wonder how could I be so naive before? Before the epiphany relationship that brought me here!
Although the 3rd date was unnecessary, I am glad I did it. It showed me all of it I needed to know. 100%+ of it. Sometimes you give people benefits of the doubt. But just once. Next time though, when I see the first red flag such as when a man doesn’t call, doesn’t seem interested in seeing me soon after the first date, I will move on immediately. Great lesson it was and all of the BR participants’ help is invaluable!!
Wow, Sofia. Interesting update. Your EUM is being petulant over things not going according to his typical script – casual sex and then disappearing. Touching your boob…..?….high school. Or pervert land. I once was on a bus trip where I was seated next to someone else’s husband, and during the whole trip he kept trying to touch my boob with his elbow – and tried to engage in discussion about accidental touching. As I had on a very thick sweater and felt nothing, I played dumb just to drive him crazy.
BTW, don’t apologize about wanting an ego stroke. We all appreciate them on occasion. Nothing wrong with a flirtatious evening and getting your ego stroked.
Actually I meant to also add in the “pre-date” post to not allow any intimate play, but who am I to say where the line should be drawn. I remember having a very nice romantic time with a guy I met at a party one evening. It was a house party, with poetry on one floor, tarot on another floor, and dancing on another floor. I was alone and so was he, and we were very pleasant company for each other, did some hugging, but no kissing as I remember, and we never saw each other again, but it was a very nice evening.
But remember, your EUM is a coworker and that is always dodgy, so let this go before any drama begins. Please ignore his text; don’t feel compelled to “state your case for the record”. He is definitely into games, and you say that is not what you want, right?
Elgie R.,
Funny about the bus trip. 🙂
Yes, I think I should forgive myself for wanting to feel like I am desired and attractive, to flirt, even with an assclown whom I will never see again. Woman’s vanity I guess. Hard to part with. Wish I didn’t want that kind of ego stroke . It is shallow and useless. Will be working on it to reduce or eliminate the desire for it. Perhaps naturally with age it will go away. Imagine how much more freedom once that desire is gone!
Yes the danger here is that he works in my company. But the good thing (otherwise I would have not even started) he is not my co-worker. Works in a different department and I am not related to his job in any way at all. We report to different people and are not connected through work. He has been with the company for months now and I never even see him in the office. It’s a big corporation where I work.
I am nervous somewhat now because I was quite shocked about his reaction. I hope it will stop at that and he won’t do anything when and if he texts me again and I won’t reply. Probably I am safe. I am sure he has enough women to play with and not enough time to handle them all.
Oh no. No games for me. That train is gone a long time ago.
What a relief! Thanks everyone!:)
I am aware of a “secret boys club” at a job where men kept score over “who banged who” at a job. These men were in all different departments at said job, but it was a private game they played…so….be careful at those jobs out there ladies. Fraternity hi jinks are everywhere. And the men who participate are generally charming and find it easy to attract women.
So far as losing the desire to be desired – I hope I never lose that. Have you seen the Marigold Hotel movie – I love how it shows that love and lust are not just for the young and beautiful. I just want to be with some man who really appreciates me and all my womanhood at whatever age I am.
I also love seeing how flabbergasted the EUM was at being “flagged on the play”. How DARE you ask direct questions so early! “Slow progess vs. NO progess” “Are you seeing other people”. The EUM usually saves the tap dance for AFTER the woman has invested feelings! Let’s all of us see that the EUM/AC playbook relies on a woman letting things go unquestioned.
Elgie R., Yes! As I was asking those questions, I was surprised at myself. Is it me speaking, my inner voice asked? Yes! It is me! New me. Back then it would be unthinkable for me to say I want people to make a call. No one is that busy. And that stalled situations are NOT a slow natural progress and that I have the right to know if he seeing other people if I am seeing him. Wow, he was pissed. Not immediately, but as I discovered later, he certainly let me know that he is not ok with my agenda. Good riddance!!!
Yes I just got that – what person – says ‘how dare you ask me direct?’!!!!!!!!!! Of course you are going to ask direct questions on a date – how else are you going to find out about each other? which is meant to be the real point of a date is it not?… By asking indirect questions? Ambiguous questions? Questions that ask nothing at all? Talk about making it harder.?
Sofia,
Dear God, what a jerk that man is. Childish and oh so transparent passive aggressive games. Bleh.
I see nothing bad in flirtation though. Sometimes I get flirtatious with strangers even. Without any agenda. Just because I want to. It does not mean I am offering myself as a sexual object. Or that I am open for anyone to touch parts of my body.
What if every time a man had a fun verbal exchange with a woman, that said woman grabbed him in between his legs? That’d be weird, right? But a man doing that? I feel like we still normalize this a bit and guilt tripping a woman a bit. Agreeing to a date does not equal consent to sex.
Back to the guy though (may I repeat what a lizard he is?): I think this case really pertains to the subject. In his head this is how he rationalized his behavior so that he could think he came up smelling of roses. Gag.
But I really like your spirit, Sofia. You admit to have been wrong but you also venture out there. You brush it off, stand up and TRY again. I kind of envy it a bit. You go, girl!
Oh wow I have to interject here! Sofia but mostly Elgie R. and Why, I think there has been a misunderstanding about the being flirtatious part. I did *not* mean to say that flirting is bad per se, not at all, just that if you are flirty with someone you don’t trust already, it might lead to dangerous or unpleasant situations. Like if I go out on a last, just-to-be-sure date with somebody who has already shown he is not trustworthy (like Sofia’s case), if I flirt during the dinner I risk inviting more flirting and touching in a less public place, say the car. This is not meant to say that it is her responsability for his actions or guilt-trip her, just to say be careful!!
Hope it’s clear now. Best, V.
V., that is true. One should be responsible for her/his actions. I was flirting and that gave him hint to touch me more, kiss me more and differently. We definitely should not be surprised if we do something, we get the result. So…I understand what you mean!
V,
Reaction formation: A defense mechanism…. Acting in the opposite way of how you feel. (e.g, ” Sure, you just destroyed my priceless collection of vases, AC. But come here and let me give you a hug anyway.”)
Hmmmm, sounds like my childhood.
V., I am sorry if I sounded harsh. It was not my intention. It was not really directed at anyone specifically, just a general side note on our western society at large. I understand what you are saying and I agree. So I am kind of glad you interjected 🙂 I thank you for that.
Why,
Thanks!:) Yes, it feels so good not to question myself anymore, blame for someone’s actions, and think I did something wrong. I certainly applied the BR rules this time, big time. I was asking valid questions for the discovery phase: to see if there is anyone else, any attachment, and what he thinks slow natural progress is. His idea was obviously (although not directly expressed) when people see each other on his terms, once in couple months for sex and fun times.
Flirting is fine, it’s just not worth doing with a guy like he. While doing that I knew it was the last time I was doing it with him. So what even the purpose? Probably to practice my forgotten skills while there was a chance:) Or maybe I subconsciously revenged him for all the disappearance acts he did. But no, I am overanalyzing now. I was just having sarcastic and detached kind of fun. Like a prank:) I didn’t go overboard and didn’t act inappropriately. That could be dangerous. Anyways, we can’t resist our nature but now it’s easy to control it for me. Back then I would have been in bed with him on the 2nd date, per my usual schedule.
I feel repulsed actually now when I think of him and hope I won’t cross the path with him at work. Luckily he travels all the time and sits in his office most of the time when he is not traveling. Hope it will stay that way.
No Sofia – you were pracising your new skills and they worked really well for you.
Sophia
But if you don’t give it 3 dates, you might wonder, this way you are clear. A lot of dating books suggest to give a person 3 trys if you are unsure the first 2 times, I like that advice. But if you definatley know after the first date then of course you don’t carry on.
Thanks so much Natalie for this article! It helps me understand and know that I was not as crazy as I thought I was. When the so called relationship ended (I did not even realize it ended), I told myself he was so nice … I did some stupid things to deserve this and now look..he is so happy with her. She is just what he wanted. There were many women impressed by him telling him if all men would be like him it would be so nice! Ugh! To deal with that and him going on and on about his wedding preparations to my colleagues in office who sit in the next cubicle … was just pathetic for me. This was 4 years back and we both still work in the same office and he looks as happy as ever in his married life.
Reading your articles gives me so much peace even though he looks very happily married. Thank you again!
Hi Natalie for your words of wisdom.
I really fail to understand why people, both men and women, want to act this way towards their fellow beings.
One could do with a ‘check list’ or profile so that you can tick off all the tell tale signs and give you a warning (or not! Not everyone is bad/mean/nasty.)
Ok, I’m pissed. I just swore off men, I mean it, I was so happy to not be looking, to be content or at least in peace without them…so what happens, I was parking my car and these 2 men (about my age range), one of which was directing me in my parking job (not well) because I hit the guy’s car and broke his tail light. Never done that in my life. Don’t know what the damage will be. So, I swear off men and I go banging my car right into one! Unbelievable!
Left comment for you below.
OMG!!!!! This is exactly what I just went through. This article was 110% about the guy who just slowly dropped me over a period of months. Could not be more spot on!!
Oh, Nat, you are a genius.
I’m not saying I’m impervious to this kind of dubiousness, but I can smell a rat from soooo far away now. When I sense that showing off, I am not impressed…all these characters get from me with that ish is a big fat cackle and the sight of me leisurely strolling away.
I don’t date because I’m not interested in it now, but I do have friendships with men that I enjoy.
I am still working on my career; I recently became an award winning artist who has items on display at an established museum, I just got accepted to grad school, and I just completed my first modeling gig which I enjoyed so incredibly much–one of the best experiences of my life.
When I came to this site my life was 100% about my ex, now three years later it’s all about me and it is f@&*(!# awesome.
Yay Peanut! Glad to hear you are doing well and are happy. Congrats on the art award.
I had previously read a comment about completely swearing off men and now I can’t spot it again.
Don’t swear off all men. Men are wonderful. Cut out the ones who are more headache than they’re worth.
If one sends you here, he’s not worth it.
Take a break from dating. Develop friendships with men. I have a male friend who is spoken for, yet I still gain from the friendship. It truly is nothing more than a friendship. We both have boundaries. Each and erry day.
Men are great, we ladies just sometimes spend way too much of our resources on the shite ones and miss out on the good’nz.
Oh!!! And today marks three years since I ended it with the ex. Three years and I didn’t go back. I think that deserves a Dairy Queen.
You’re awesome peanut. So glad to hear everything going so well with all the hard work you have put in.
Go you good thing.
Almost 3 years for me too!
I love your comments here peanut, about life now being all about you – I am getting to that place and yes it is lovely 🙂
Thank you ladies.
I still grapple with problems. This peanut is a bit of a hot head. But I’m learning adequate and healthy ways to channel my repressed anger, albeit there is no better way to head off inappropriate anger than developing a habit of assertiveness.
And that Dairy Queen was the best damn ice cream of my life.
For the first time in my life, I am consistently vibrant and happy.
It is possible.
Peanut, you certainly sound it, vibrant and happy. And how right you are about the assertiveness bit. Best, V.
Respect by Aretha Franklin
What you want
(oo) Baby, I got
(oo) What you need
(oo) Do you know I got it?
(oo) All I’m askin’
(oo) Is for a little respect when you come home (just a little bit)
Hey baby (just a little bit) when you get home
(just a little bit) mister (just a little bit)
I ain’t gonna do you wrong while you’re gone
Ain’t gonna do you wrong (oo) ’cause I don’t wanna (oo)
All I’m askin’ (oo)
Is for a little respect when you come home (just a little bit)
Baby (just a little bit) when you get home (just a little bit)
Yeah (just a little bit)
I’m about to give you all of my money
And all I’m askin’ in return, honey
Is to give me my propers
When you get home (just a, just a, just a, just a)
Yeah baby (just a, just a, just a, just a)
When you get home (just a little bit)
Yeah (just a little bit)
Ooo, your kisses (oo)
Sweeter than honey (oo)
And guess what? (oo)
So is my money (oo)
All I want you to do (oo) for me
Is give it to me when you get home (re, re, re ,re)
Yeah baby (re, re, re ,re)
Whip it to me (respect, just a little bit)
When you get home, now (just a little bit)
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
Find out what it means to me
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
Take care, TCB
Oh (sock it to me, sock it to me,
sock it to me, sock it to me)
A little respect (sock it to me, sock it to me,
sock it to me, sock it to me)
Whoa, babe (just a little bit)
A little respect (just a little bit)
I get tired (just a little bit)
Keep on tryin’ (just a little bit)
You’re runnin’ out of foolin’ (just a little bit)
And I ain’t lyin’ (just a little bit)
(re, re, re, re) ‘spect
When you come home (re, re, re ,re)
Or you might walk in (respect, just a little bit)
And find out I’m gone (just a little bit)
I got to have (just a little bit)
A little respect (just a little bit)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOUqQt3Kg0
That’s inspiring @peanut. I would like to get to a place where my life is all about me too (or at least mostly about me). I don’t think I’ll be ready to date for a long time because I feel so messed up.
I keep thinking about all the silly things I’ve said and done and how no men really will like me. I feel like I’m too stupid in love and say all the wrong things and am attracted to the wrong people, I’m terrible at putting up boundaries and maintaining them. I think this situation really did a number on my head and now I’m having a hard time rebuilding my self esteem.
Meanwhile, I get to hear at work about how exMM and his wife are buying their dream home in one of the fanciest neighbourhoods in the city and about their baby shower that a bunch of people are going to. He looks at me with smugness and sympathy in the hallway like he feels really bad for me that I don’t get to be the one building this dream life with him. I need to get a new job and get out of here pronto :(:(
Leanne,
Please understand this man is a lying, cheating, no good piece of s*@t! Stop acting like he is some great guy. The reason why you are having a hard time is because you are not seeing hime for who he is! His wife is not getting this great guy!! He a bum! He doesn’t look at you with pity, he looks at you because you know he ain’t s#@t! You should be happy that it’s not you because I can guarantee you that he will cheat again! It may not be with you, but he will. Yeah his wife has a prize, Not!
Leanne,
I’m sorry you’re feeling bad and beating yourself up. You know I’ve done a lot of that, and still do in many ways, but I have stopped with the ex. The way I see it is that you and I get to win, because we are aware and have the opportunity to grow from our experiences so that life will be more rewarding for us.
When he looks and you with a smug smile you can stand tall and smile smugly back and know he is still the same AC and will continue through life with his discontent.
Being busy with the dream house, the baby showers, they all hide the real him, probably from himself more than anything. Its a masquerade, his Eau de BS.
Hugs
Leanne all these feelings are real – about being on your own being unloveable etc…and they are the ones you have to face – these are what really got you to accepting less than the good healthy relationship you deserve/need and will again if left unresolved.
This is a good sign after splitting up from him – it shows you are starting to process the real feelings you have inside that normally you suppress – in the hope of finally moving on from repeating this issue again with someone else dressed in a different disguise.
His smug smile is really a mirror of where you now are for real in your life – where as his smugness is based on deceit, denial and lies – do not do the same to yourself – base your well earned smugness on the truth about yourself – you are now beginning to become aware of the truth, have found support for real and are learning how to have a real relationship and turn those feelings around for real.
This has to be way better than anything he has to offer you. Face being alone and know you are strong and you are getting through it and doing really well.
Thanks girls. I don’t think he feels discontent. I think he feels perfectly happy to have misled and used me and now carry on in his happy clappy life. I can tell he feels sorry for me and I hate that. I should know that he’s a total jackass, but it’s like it doesn’t compute. I hate him, but mostly just because he rejected me. what is wrong with me?? I’m on anti-anxiety meds now, seeing a therapist and still find myself drinking too much. I don’t want to go down a self-destructive path, but I am in a lot of pain about this still. And I’ve been working so hard to feel better! I think it’s because I see him in the halls at work (I thought I was getting better, but I just hadn’t seen him for a long time). I need to get out of here before it gets any worse 🙁
Leanne, stop projecting your issues onto him. You don’t really know what he thinks and feels. I think that certainly not “smug” and like “he’s won”. Listen to me, you’re the one who’s “won”. He didn’t reject you, YOU rejected him. Yes, he led you to believe that there might have been something between you two, but you didn’t get sexually involved with him (not his plan), and now you’ve dropped him (not in his harem, again not his plan). See, who rejected whom? No matter how big and posh the house and how many people turn up at baby shower, he’s still a liar and a (wannabe) cheater, and his wife is married to a liar and a cheater. Drinking excessively and anxious because of this little s+++e? Comme on!
Hi Leanne,
Everyone (Stephanie, Oona, Colly and others) is giving you valid perspective and good advice. Even though it feels like he’s in your head, he DOESN’T know what you’re thinking or feeling. You don’t know what he is thinking or feeling either. Even if he were to tell you, would you BELIEVE him? Seeing a therapist, anti-anxiety meds, BR reading/ writing is all helpful.
Excessive drinking is not, but you know that. Work THROUGH your hurt. It’s the only way.
Thanks everyone. I will keep doing the work. I think it is just hard to be around this workplace with him here. He’s a real star at work and everyone loves him. I miss being good buddies with and now I feel like he hates me (thinks I’m a loser). I’m probably just projecting my insecurites because I feel bad that I broke down before and he did seem to think of me as a loser then. But I was so angry about the way he was treating me. The worst thing is that I tried to retract my anger (and that made me look even worse I’m sure). Oh well!
But how do I get to a place where I really don’t care what this guy thinks?? Especially since it’s all conjecture.
Hi Leanne,
You can’t know what he’s thinking, and even if he is being smug then just know that one day he is on for a big fall.
I took anti-anxiety meds once, about 18 years ago, after falling foul of an AC and struggling to get over it. I do look back and feel like it numbed me in a way and stopped me processing my feelings properly. I know you probably feel like the pain is too bad to stop them, but I think it might be for the best? With the drinking…I’ve done that a bit too, but I just kind of tell myself he’s not worth it and then go dry and after a couple of days feel really pleased with myself.
I think you’ve hit a bump in the road, but you’re still travelling in the right direction. It will pass.
I’m 3 weeks 1 day NC now – longest I’ve gone and no desire to break it at all.
Keep at it Leanne, you’re doing great.
Oh wow Leanne do I feel for you…
Here’s my advice. You say “I’ve been working so hard to feel better”. Try working less hard. If you quit working so hard to make yourself feel better, you’ll feel worse, right?
That’s what we (I and you?) want. You need to feel worse, at least for a while, that is the pain you are escaping from by drinking etc. Please give yourself the room to feel your hurt. It is huge, if you are running away from it so badly, but it won’t last forever. Please, please be careful when putting yourself in the hands of remedies that can rapidly escalate to a physical dependency, like alcohol or drugs. That is a dangerous road to travel.
Very best wishes to you, V.
I see now Colly’s answer which has just been published, and your own answer too (Leanne). I wrote the very same thing about anxiety meds but then I deleted it ’cause I didn’t want to touch a hot topic. Colly thanks for your honesty as usual and I wholeheartedly agree. Alcohol and drugs numb you. They are ok for a little while, an emergency fix if you wish, but you eventually really need to wean off them, the sooner the better.
Leanne you really need to feel your pain and your anger and whatever comes up. The moment you stop drugging yourself you’ll feel the waves of emotions come up, let them go through you. This is the internal work. About the external one, it looks like it would be of great benefit to you if you managed to change jobs, can you do that?
Best, V.
Whatever- I let a man give me “guidance” when trying to park on a narrow side of mountain road. There was a bit of a drop on one side and very narrow road on the other. Trees on one end of dirt area and driveway on other made it very difficult for me to park. I don’t know why I listened to him as he lead me straight into an area of loose dirt & my car needed to be pushed back onto the road. I had no attraction for the guy so that wasn’t it. I know I’m bad at parking so doubted myself and trusted a stranger.
I won’t do that one again. No matter how foolish I look or how many tries it takes me to park, I’ll be the decision – maker there. 😉
This was great, Natalie! Thank you! I hope this post isn’t too off topic. I’ve only been on BR for a couple days and I’ve already learned quite a bit. My sister just ended a relationship (half fantasy) with a EUM/AC a few months ago and she is having a rough go of things. They started out as friends for a year, and then had their relationship for almost another year. She has been NC with him for almost 2 months. I am here trying to learn what I can about guys like this, so I can really be there for her and help her. I didn’t know much about EUM’s until I found this site. I just thought people like that were just simply a$$holes lol. Any info, advice, etc would be very helpful.
Why would an EUM keep 2 relationships a secret from his friends and family, but the current gf of almost 3 months,(who lives and hour and a half away from him, sees pretty much once a week & met on an online dating site), he goes public with on facebook, etc and seems to be really seeking a relationship with her? This guy likes to bounce from girl to girl (mostly girls he meets online). Of the 40 signs that Natalie posted about someone being EU, we counted about 15 and he has done ZERO work on himself. After dumping my sister and throwing the friendship card to her, a month and a half later he’s dating this girl. So why is the current gf being treated differently?
And how do you know she’s treated differently? Are you breathing down their necks 24/7? And more importantly, why do you think she WILL be treated differently? I hope you and your sister don’t really believe everything you read, especially if it’s on fb.
What I meant by “treated differently” was in regards to him being so public with her (pictures, posts, etc). He kept his relationship with my sister to himself and the girl he was seeing before her too. That’s all I meant. I don’t know how he is with this new girl. They see each other once a week for the most part, so I guess for an EUM that’s the perfect ‘relationship’. My sister was used by this man child and then tossed aside like garbage. A month later he’s dating this new girl and showing her off. I’m just trying to understand it a bit better, that’s all.
Kelly, I think Mephista’s advice is good even though it might have sounded harsh to you. I think she only meant to say that it *looks* like the new girlfriend is being treated better – in that she is being shown off on facebook etc. – but it is only a superficial better, and you shouldn’t give too much credit to these shallow ‘love’ demonstrations.
I also think that your description of your sister being tossed aside like garbage is accurate. But then you see for yourself that this person is not worth of being ‘desired’; he is a user and a dishonest guy. The only thing that can help your sister is to grieve the end of the relationship. That is hard but it is doable and she’ll feel much better and stronger afterwards. Also, after grieving for a little while she’ll have a new perspective of the situation and maybe understand part of the things that are a question mark for her now. Best, V.
When it comes to Facebook, I had a revelation recently and I wonder if it might be helpful. The person I am recovering from had just broken up with a gf of about 2 years when we began seeing each other. When I determined I wanted him to be my bf and he didn’t know what he wanted, I stepped back.
Sooner thereafter, FB suggested his ex as “someone I might know.” Ugh…
Against my better judgment (“snooping never leads to anything good” – NML), I took a peek at her public FB information and it appears they are back to hanging out together. At first, I felt let down and all that…
But then something hit me. She was posting pictures of flowers he gave her, some food he cooked her. And at first, I had that feeling of, “That’s what I wanted with him” and the Why Not Me stuff.
All of a sudden, my perspective changed. I thought, “If she’s posting this, it’s because this is unusual. She’s so floored that he’s doing this, she’s *posting about it on Facebook.*” This means, she’s not accustomed to it and neither is he – he gave her flowers? Put that on Facebook! It’s a fucking miracle! lol
Once that hit me, I never looked at either of their pages again. If my bf gave me flowers or cooked me food, I would not be posting that on FB. That’s what people in relationships do for each other. It’s not notable. It’s normal. And I reminded myself that people who make a big deal out of it have really low standards and need a lot of validation that they’re “wonderful” for doing basic kinds of love expression.
I hope that helps. It sure did help me ignore them on FB and remember that, when it comes to love, what actually matters isn’t what shows up online but what shows up in reality.
I’m in therapy and I’m psychologically healthy (certified by my Psy Dr.) A lot of therapists are also in therapy because it’s a professional requirement. That being said, I’ve suffered from depression at various times in the past and, at different times, counseling and medications have been instrumental to my recovery and overall sense of well-being. I don’t think that counseling and/or medications should, in and of themselves, be considered an automatic relationship red flag because they, at the very least, mean that the individual seeking therapy is actively pursuing help for whatever mental health issue(s) lead them to get counseling in the first place. What should be far more troubling is an individual who actively refuses to seek help or pursue greater enlightenment or self-awareness. I would also point out that the healthiest relationship I’ve been in has been with an man who was diagnosed Bipolar. A lot of wife beaters aren’t mentally ill (see Lundy Bancroft’s book “Why Does He Do That?”) I say these things because it troubles me to see negative stereotypes about mental illness and its various remedies perpetuated in the comments on this blog, which is supposed to be a safe space and support for women dealing with relationship issues. At least one poster previously commented on this article that she was feeling depressed and I’m sure there are other readers wrestling with these feelings here. To go on and demonize individuals with mental health issues seems insensitive, to say the least, in this setting. (If I’m not over-stepping my bounds, Natalie, may I suggest a future post on mental health issues and dating relationships? I realize that’s an awfully broad topic, but I feel it may be helpful to some of the readers here.)
Thank you “Freedom Tastes of Reality” for your insight and perspective. And to the universe, the timing feels to right to be coincidence – thanks for putting this for me to see.
Wow – great site and this post is very helpful.
I grew up with a narc mother who destroyed my self-worth through abuse and neglect (only realized this recently with the help of therapy). I have always been shy and overweight. Rejection and bullying from my peers at school led to Social Anxiety Disorder.
I threw myself into school and earned a professional degree. I tried to get self worth, purpose, and meaning through my work. I got very little attention from men.
Then at the age of 47, after 12 years of nobody asking me out, I met a man who really seemed to “get” me. We became friends, and fell in love over the course of 6 months. The hitch: he was married, but “in the process of getting separated”. He said he’d file for a divorce as soon as they moved into housing that his wife could afford on just her income, and he asked me to marry him.
This man was the love of my life, and I thought my dreams had come true. He told me he’d never truly been in love before he met me, said he’d do anything for me, etc. with alot of emotion and tears, such that I believed everything he said. Still, I would not sleep with him while he was married.
He and his wife moved to cheaper housing out of state. He wanted to move back to my state, and said that that he’d get divorced AFTER he moved in with me. I refused to let him move in while he was still married, and offered to help him find a room to rent.
He refused to come back unless he could move in with me. And he did not want to tell his wife he was living with another woman, or that he wanted a divorce. We argued about this for a year, with him getting upset and disappearing for up to 6 weeks at a time, not keeping his word about calling me, etc. Sometimes he would say he was “working on getting divorced”, sometimes he’d say he “might never get divorced”.
He finally admitted that “for financial reasons he would not get divorced and take the chance of he & I not getting along and him ending up dying alone in a tiny apartment”. That he “wanted to live with me (while lying to his wife) and see how it went”. He said he couldn’t marry someone he had not lived with first.
Sometimes I’m angry at him for wasting 1 1/2 years of my life, offering marriage and then managing down my expectations. I feel that he misled me from the start, saying he was getting separated. I don’t know if he was just a lying, cheating scumbag or if he was genuinely in love with me but afraid of leaving the security of his marriage.
Sometimes I’m angry at myself for sticking to my principles, and wish I had taken a chance and let him move in with me. I wonder if my principles cost me my hopes, dreams, and future happiness. I have been NC for 10 months now, and still cry about it. I feel very hopeless and depressed since I struggle with Social Anxiety Disorder and meeting / talking to men. I’ll be turning 50 soon, and I feel like this man was my last chance for marriage.
I need the perspectives of the people on this forum – male and female. I’d appreciate your thoughts and wisdom.
Hello Terry,
You should be glad you stuck with your principles. This man wanted to use you, but you didn’t let it happen. You stood on your principles and didn’t allow him to move into your place. I applaud you. Take a bow Terry!
I am sure it hurts but be glad that he is gone. You are emotionally vested and you can’t see what I am able to see. He clearly had an ulterior motive for wanting to move in with you. It hurts to feel like you wasted time but Terry what did you learn? Think about what you learned and write it out. The fact that you flushed this rat down the toilet is priceless. You didn’t let him move in- major points to you. Terry you made this man honor his vows. Truth be told you had more respect for his vows then he did. My advice in the future send all married men who approach you home to their BRIDES. They need to take their ***** home and fix up the mess they helped create. You don’t need to deal with a married man. The end result can only be heartbreak and some feeling of disgust.
He has shown you who he is DON’T LET HIM BACK INTO YOUR LIFE. If you do then that is time wasted.
I personally look at how people treat other people. That is exactly how they will treat me. I never claim to be better or think someone will treat me better. In other words if you are treating your wife like trash then you would treat me no better.
You have done yourself a major favor and you need to be grateful for the lessons this experience has taught you.
This man is a coward. He wanted to find a way to sleep with you (test you out) without his wife ever knowing. Then he could safely run back home. He wanted to have the luxury of running between both homes but you stood your ground and did not allow this. Be proud of yourself.
You said you feel like he was your last shot at a relationship. I don’t think so. You are telling yourself that your life is over at 50. Are you kidding? Some people in that age group start second careers. Some people even end marriages after 30 years and start all over in their fifties. Start telling yourself a new story. This is your chance to design the new life you want and you are going to work like hell to get it. Terry wake up each day and go after what you want. Have a plan and FOCUS on how to get it.
You my friend dodged a bullet. You let this cad go on down the road. You stood your ground based on your principles. Hold your head up high. Start to work on YOU. Write out things you need to do to feel comfortable with exploring the opportunity to find a new relationship. It is there go get it until then LOVE YOURSELF. No more beating yourself up.
INVEST TIME INTO YOURSELF TERRY.
MJ
This article could have been written with my ex in mind. I just found out that, four months after our break-up (which came out of nowhere after more than two happy, loving years together), he is engaged to someone I suspect he dated previously. I’m so disgusted, but now understand that this is what he does in relationships. This will be his third marriage, and I predict more relationship roadkill to come. He had everyone fooled, including me, but not anymore…what a liar, a cheater, a coward, and a fraud. If I never see him again, it will be too soon.