I’m frequently asked for advice on what effectively boils down to being able to give a ‘soft NO’. It’s the kind of no that’s probably still going to result in you feeling a bit icky during and/or afterwards, but you feel that you’ve done the no justice by being gentle and ‘kind’ about it.
This includes apologising profusely, claiming that you wish you could but you can’t, telling a long-winded story to justify declining, giving a blow-by-blow run-through of your schedule and all of the claims on your time, and other such excuses and justifications that many of us engage in.
It’s as if we don’t believe that we can say no ‘just because’. It’s as if no isn’t no if it hasn’t got a story, excuses, or looking like we’ve been through the horrors to get to the point of saying no so that the other person is sufficiently guilty and embarrassed at having asked us in the first place.
I’m generally good at saying no, simply because experience has taught me that when my stomach is tied up in knots, there’s that heavy sensation in my chest, and I’m overworked, overtired, over whatever and basically over my bandwidth, I need to stop telling people what they want to hear. Or what I think they want to hear but possibly don’t.
For example: Yes, of course I can do that (even though I already know that I have too much on or that I don’t want to).
In these situations, I know that I need to give a straight-up no.
Now I know some of you probably think I’m a hardass! In reality, though, unless I know that the person typically behaves in a certain way or that the particular request is a no that I’ve already decided on in advance, I don’t feel that I have to do a ‘hard NO’.
In a nutshell, this is a closed ‘No’ without the dressing of superfluous explanations/excuses.
If you feel like you’re trying to let them down gently or that you have to back up the no with explanations and excuses that are often about leaving you comfortable at having said no, never mind the recipient, you’re likely giving a ‘soft no’. These are not ‘bad’ (quite the opposite) but you’ve got to know when and who to use them with. If they are not working in a particular instance, your only option is to go for a ‘hard no’, not to keep coming up with other long-winded and gentle, round-the-houses ways of saying what you are ultimately trying to get across – that you cannot or don’t want to do it.
Sometimes there is a fine line between a ‘soft no’ and sounding like you’re bullshitting.
With very assertive people as well as aggressive folk, they will exploit a soft no and see it as a potential yes and an opening to negotiation. This can work very well in sales roles to a degree, but it can leave people feeling as if their wishes, feelings, and opinions have been trampled on and ignored.
I’ve sometimes agonised about saying no because when I get past the fear of conflict, the fear of disappointing them and the rigmarole of ‘explaining myself’, behind it all is worrying about how I look (even though this is often irrational). This is when I start ‘padding out’ the no.
In the last post on telling people what they want to hear, I shared that I’d got myself into an awkward spot with an estate agent. Caught on the hop, I found myself handing over my number. As soon as I closed the door, I immediately regretted it. I resolved then and there that if and when she called, I would decline and it’s exactly what I did.
Now, you would think that would be the end of it, but she called a few days later, making claims this time that cast temporary doubts over my original no. Feeling quite frankly exhausted by her patter, I said I’d speak to Em. And then promptly forgot about it. She called again while I was out, and he also told her no. Now, you would think that would be the end of it (again), but she called, and this time I shot right through her claims because I realised, if I wasn’t firm, direct, and without what she may have seen as ‘justifications’ (read: openings), she’d call me till kingdom come. ‘Thanks very much for your interest, but I’m definitely not interested, and I won’t be changing my mind.’
Now I could have kept saying, ‘I’ll think about it’ or ‘I don’t think so but I’ll speak to my husband’ or explaining why I would be uncomfortable doing what she’d asked but actually, not only was it just wasting time but I really didn’t need to. I can handle no, and I have to trust that she can, but I also don’t need to justify saying no or why I don’t feel comfortable – I just don’t.
As I think of my younger self feeling pressured by guys and as I thought of BR readers, never mind the many young children and teens who end up agreeing to stuff against their better judgement so as not to ‘offend’, I recognised the importance of biting the bullet and saying no.
I’ve learned that the majority of friends, family and professional acquaintances will take and respect a soft no (although I have scaled back the waffle because people do feel weird when you over-explain), so there’s no need for me to lay it down, although if I have to I will.
Familiarising yourself with who you need to be clear and direct with can save you a lot of headache.
Sometimes a ‘hard no’ is the only option you’ve got. Whether it’s that the request is so over the mark that you don’t want to leave any ambiguity around your answer or it’s that the person is trying to swing you to a yes, being absolutely clear about your no is imperative in these situations.
Just because someone is pushing it, it doesn’t mean that you have to reconsider or give. It just means that you need to be firmer in declining. It’s all very well worrying about causing offence by saying no but you also need to consider that you may be doing something offensive to you by saying yes to busting your boundaries.
The more you ‘pad out’ the no is the more it sounds like justifying when actually, they’re unlikely to have given anything close to a sufficient justification for either asking you or continuing to push the issue.
If like me you hate being put on the spot and sometimes squirm at having to turn them down right there and then, just say, ‘Let me get back to you on that’, give yourself some breathing space on it and then call or drop them an email if it’s appropriate. If they make out like it’s a now or never, just say, ‘If I have to make a decision right now then I’m going to have to say no’ and mean it. Knowing in advance what your boundaries are, what you want to decline, or what you typically need some time to think about before you agree, can keep you out of a lot of trouble. Suggesting somebody else who may be able to help (obviously that’s not going to work if you’re being asked to partake in a threeway or in something shady) can sometimes help but just be careful of burdening you with a task that you may not need and that might even draw you back into the possibility of being asked again.
In the end, whether it’s a hard no or a soft one, no is an option for you.
Your thoughts?
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I truly enjoy saying No to assclowns and arrogant men.
Fifty-one days ago, my boundaries were good and I could say no and consider it a complete sentence.
Then, after 10 years of no contact due to a bad break up, my now-married ex popped back into my e-mail life.
We had always had the same sense of humor and intellect, so the e-mails started flying, and then in a flash my ex started reminiscing and memories of our great sex life came up. Before I knew it, I had become The Other Woman.
Assclown ex did all the typical seduction moves, and I fell for them.
After a month or so, I came to my senses and told the assclown ex to shove it. Asssclown asked if we could still be friends.
I said NO.
When I truly say a firm ‘no”, it always feels good inside.
Makes me stronger with my boundaries, more proud of myself, and there is no knot in my chest, or making up of endless excuses that still sort of keeps me on the hook.
It also has the effect of people knowing that I cannot be taken advantage of or manipulated, and that includes family.
I had this “hard no” experience this week with an ex. I was super proud of myself, and yes it felt damn good!
No is a word I’ve never had any problem speaking, yep, especially to ACs and other forms of problem children.
If you want to Rid Narcissists from your life – Just say NO!!! I learned this from a very good source and believe me it works Wonders!!! Remember – the people who are up to no good in this world will always find another “sucker” to use and exploit.
I just commented about this on the last blog, regarding my difficulty saying “No”. It’s not even the actual declining that is the problem for me, rather it’s saying it diplomatically. When diplomacy was being given out I was no where around. So I usually end up saying “Yes” to keep favor with the individual. Just this afternoon, in the supermarket, the woman behind me was on her cell phone and was giving the other party what sounded like valid reasons why she could not do the favor asked. I found myself marveling at how she was nonchalant but firm with not a hint of guilt or regret in her voice. I thought, “Gee, she sounds like she learned how to say “No” a long time ago, and here I am still struggling.
You see, THIS is what makes you a great writer, Nat. You pay attention to the theme of your comments (keeping your “finger on the pulse” of your readers, so to speak) and then you respond with appropriate (and wise) material. You’d be amazed at how many “wordsmiths” fail this very critical part of writing to an audience. I applaud you, darlin’.
With deep respect,
Revs
YES Rev!
I’ve noticed the very same thing about Natalie’s writing. She is really paying attention and cleverly blends what she wants to write about with what issues we are discussing. A smart woman way beyond her years.
Revolution & Tinkerbell- Yes, I noticed this as well. When I read the title of this post, I thought, “Hmm…I wonder if this is based on what Mauve and Tinkerbell were discussing in the last post…”
Rosie,
Hey girl. You’re paying attention, too! LOL!
Hi all,
It’s true for me too that i’ll come here and find articles that are almost tailor made for me/my situation.
I’m still reading BR and the comments and still learning a lot.
Thank you!
I’m making a lot of progress to heal from divorce and pretty soon will be the one year anniversary since my divorce was final.
I’ve been been following your advice and not dating/stay single to give myself time to heal.
Been celibate for 5 months and it helped simply my life. I did a lot of solo trips this summer where i could take time to examine myself and sort myself out emotionally.
On my most recent trip i met a woman and really connected with her: mind, body, and soul.
I was not looking for it and it was so random how we met, but once we touched/held each other there was a spark and we had passionate sex.
Although there is an ocean between us, we talk on the phone daily and sometimes video call.
We both trying to keep it real and do not want to have fantasy long distance relationship, but we are both falling for each other pretty fast.
She is coming to visit next month and plans for me to meet her family.
I seek advice and point me to some articles regarding long distance relationships.
Saying No definitely sets boundaries and helps to keep the relationship on equal footing. If you want something that lasts, mutual is important from the earliest stages.
To Greater Intimacy
I am a recovering co-dependent and learning to say “no” is the hardest thing ever. My traumatic childhood erroneously taught me that if you love someone you must always say “yes” and that if you say “no” they will stop loving you and ultimately abandon you. Now I am finally learning to protect myself with my “no” boundaries, even though I still cringe inside each time I have to say it. I usually say that I am very sorry but that this or that “would be wrong for me right now”. Thanks for the post, very important concepts 🙂
Janet.
Exactly. My childhood was not very traumatic, But I too realize that the reason I have trouble saying “No” or standing up for myself in difficult situations, particularly with family or a close friend, is because I’m afraid they won’t love me anymore. In my case, I don’t know where that comes from, but it’s quite a pervasive issue for me.
janet B.- I come from a home where my “no” was not respected in situations where children SHOULD say “no”. Also, my “no” often resulted in emotional blackmail–my mom would throw major temper tantrum when I wouldn’t comply, even as an adult. Thus, I grew up not knowing that I had a right and obligation to say “no” sometimes & I still fear conflict. As my therapist told me, I couldn’t make decisions because I had no history with decision-making. Decision-making comes from the ability to say “no”.
I fell of the NC Wagon 3 days ago big time (he future faked and I was let on) – since then I have been ignoring his calls and texts. Should I inform him that I do not want to talk to him (again) or should I just stay NC? HELP
Nana, please forgive me for tagging on to your post with something your thoughts triggered in me. This isn’t directed at you alone; but, rather to an overall tenor I perceive with many posts, and a stance which could be seriously detrimental to a life over the course of decades.
Emotional connection is complex. For the most part, we are all doing our best as we seek fulfilling connections, including an intimate connection which we hope to see grow and flower.
In general, I’d like to suggest Dr. Brene Brown’s [audio]book, The Power of Vulnerability, for her powerful insight and suggestions for essential self-work which could literally save us and turn our lives around if we have the courage . . . and a belief in the possibility of a full life with a nice ‘flow’ to it.
I often sense reactive self-protection, bordering on harshness, in many posts here, an impression which deeply saddens me. A great deal of courage is required for either in the couple to open to the possibility of rejection, and I wonder if we misinterpret messages due to a deep desire to retain or replace the shell around ourselves. Or to retaliate to former hurts. At worst, we may subconsciously crave power and use means to direct outcomes, over the risk of becoming truly close and living with uncertainty. For example, we may push for commitment or closure prematurely due to our deep fears surrounding the unknown and the sense of ‘no ground to stand on’.
I feel that we all are prone to misunderstanding motives in the maelstrom of emotions following intimacy, and our fear of being truly exposed and receptive. Perhaps there is a way to have the necessary conversation with a kindred soul where we both are able to risk more than has been our pattern. What is his side and perspective? Does he have a voice in these exchanges or does he feel that he must wear a mask of sorts. Is he gentle? Kind? Fearful? Trying to reach across to you, even if unskillfully or in a guarded way? All of these men hold the seeds of the gentle, sweet boy grown into an adult with a mix of both good and confused qualities, a man seeking love and companionship. There is likely – more often than not – much that is good to tap into.
Our life’s work is to learn the language which allows the best in others to shine in our presence.
I believe that life presents a multitude of opportunities in different areas; however, we are often blind to these or ruin our chances. Sometimes this is due to fear and a misguided effort to keep the majority control of the situations, events and influences in life which are beyond our control . . . a terrifying realization but the only knowledge leading to true freedom and happiness. I do believe that, unless we risk vulnerability and the discomfort of ‘not knowing’, we remain on the outside of life looking in. And certainly, time is always running out. No need for rash impulse; but, to hold awareness that life opportunities are not infinite and that each person is precious.
I simply wonder about our reactions and the accuracy of our perceptions when our hearts are on the line and things feel chaotic or out of our control. Is our judgement sound? Are we allowing ourselves to feel the range of emotions?
Be well – MaryM
When people trigger anxiety about our emotions or unacceptable parts of our personalities, we attribute these qualities as a defense mechanism to external objects and other people. When we have little tolerance for others, we are likely to attribute the sense of our own inferiority to them.There’s always a hook that invites our projection. Some imperfect quality in other people activates some aspect of ourselves that wants our attention. So whatever we don’t own about ourselves we project onto other people. We say to others what we should be saying to ourselves. When we judge others we are judging ourselves. If you constantly beat yourself up with negative thoughts, you will either beat up on the people around you verbally, emotionally, or physically or you will beat up on yourself by engaging in some sort of self-destructive behavior.
I know these words well 🙂 quote from Debbie ford. “The dark side of the light chasers” Thanks for sharing!
MaryM- If I’m understanding you right, you’re calling forth respectful treatment of the other person, correct? I like that title–The Power of Vulnerability and I agree with what you write (if I’m understanding you) that there is sometimes a reactive stance here that leads to living life insularly, which is the opposite of what will lead to emotional availability, which requires vulnerability.
At the same time, if someone mistreats us but, for some reason, we still have difficulty saying “no” to this person, we MUST stay far, far away for our own emotional, sometimes physical safety. I don’t like it that the word “narcissist” is tossed around so casually as if we’re all Penelope tied to railroad tracks unwillingly but, most of the time, somebody knows when s/he’s mistreating somebody & we do have an obligation to protect ourselves and, if we’re too weak to do it after conversing with offender, then, yes, complete avoidance is necessary for our own protection while acknowledging that, as primates, we are created to be in relationship with others, just not with that particular person.
As for me, I’ve become open with my feelings. The guy who brought me here knows I have difficulty resisting him; yet, I still said “no”. I’m not responsible for inflating or deflating his ego but am responsible for living out my own morality.
MaryM- Sometimes the best way to allow the other person to shine is to remove our presence.
Oh that’s a good one, Rose!
I agree with you, MaryM. The problem is that in a relationship both people have to be taking risks and allowing themselves to be vulnerable. I’ve been trying for two years to make a safe place for my sweetie to get over his deep shame and (eventually) the occasional bad behavior that goes with it. Right now I don’t feel like he’s trying hard enough. I love him but can’t give up my life waiting and hoping that he will be willing to meet me halfway.
MaryM, I think this is thought provoking is you are dealing with a non-disordered individual. Many of us here have learned, though, that indulging in the naive exercise of expecting that an AC thinks as we do, will only cause us more harm.
In my case, the AC lies exceedingly well and as easily as he breathes. Providing him yet another opportunity would be absurd and self-destructive. Since I have been NC, he has made many overtures to get together. Sometimes, I think it would be desirable to have a “closure” conversation which we never did. (I caught him in bed with another woman the same night he was with me and never spoke to him again.)
I came close to agreeing to meet recently because I still want some sort of an apology but then I realized that I needed to use my NC to continuing saying “No!” What is there he could really possibly say that would make me feel any better? Why would I believe anything he said even if it was something I thought I wanted to hear?
I allowed myself to be vulnerable with him enough times to know that doing so again will not end well for me. Also, it would make him feel like he’s not really such a bad man if I’m still willing to talk to him and feed his ego. There is nothing to understand – he is a bad man. I’m not giving him another chance to lie to me.
Amen! When I keep my distance from him, I feel calm and strong and happy. Whenever he breaks through a barrier to make contact with me (which in itself is disrespectful), he lies, exaggerates, manipulates, and bullies me. No thank you. I need an adult man who is emotionally mature, not a King Baby or Bully.
MaryM, your comments make sense for a NORMAL relationship. What many of us here are dealing with is NOT NORMAL men or relationships.
Make myself vulnerable to him? No effing way. Two years of suffering is enough for this girl.
Mary M., Natalie gives examples of “Red Flags”, code red and code amber behaviors in others that show us they’re behaving in a shady manner and that they should be avoided. If they don’t treat us with love, care, trust and respect they don’t deserve to receive the same from us, much less any vulnerability on our part.
FX,
“I allowed myself to be vulnerable with him enough times to know that doing so again will not end well for me. Also, it would make him feel like he’s not really such a bad man if I’m still willing to talk to him and feed his ego.”
Thank you. I needed to read that today! The beauty of NC – it really communicates everything you need to say.
Hi,
I am a male, in an abusive relationship with a female.
Same here… needed to read this 🙂
I totally get this. I am almost a year of NC. For me, I had to get real with the fact that the individual I was with was very, very, sick. “Disordered”, is so clinical, but correct. It just doesn’t begin to describe the crazy. I normalized so much bad behavior. The ex EUM assclown, whatever you call him, is a very bad person. What’s even worse is they try to break contact and think they will succeed with another lie, story or excuse. Good for you that you stayed strong, it’s not easy, as they are really clever at getting you to believe them. Looks like you understand plenty. These AC’s don’t change, they don’t “think as we do”. Thanks to BR we know the signs now and we can act on that knowledge. Stay strong, FX, it can be hard, but it is worth it. Just remembering all the BS I used to believe. Thank God I am not so trusting anymore, I put the kibosh on all kinds of shady situations now. What’s amazing is how much shady BS is out there.
Same as my ex assclown.. His family won’t stop calling me to give him a chance to atleast explain himself. Being 4months NC(or least I lyk to tink I’ve being) and he started making attempts at breaking at at past 2month Nc which is the longest we’ve not spoken. He called up at our 4month NC annivarsy saying he had to meet me and he has something very important he needed to tell me( reading baggage reclaim, I think I know better than to believe anything that comes out of that egocentric douchelord’s mouth.) i can’t believe he had the guts to tell me he didn’t treat me “that bad”. Seems i was right about him after all. He has no empathy
trixiee
I expect his family are well aware that he is unlikely to find anyone anytime soon who will take him and his problems off their hands.
Stay strong.
Hi MaryM
I’m interested in your comment because I’m in the process of making myself vulnerable to the ex-EUM who brought me to BR in the first place. It’s an unusualish situation that regular readers are aware of (we have a child and the saga is nearly four years old) but as a result I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about the mechanics of opening up emotionally and building a healthy relationship etc.
I’m not about to break out the banners or anything about it, btw – it hasn’t been going on long enough to know whether it’s going to work or not. We’re both aware that it might not, because relationships sometimes don’t.
It IS, however, a completely different experience to when I first met him and he was EUMing all over the shop. Back then the right thing wasn’t to make myself vulnerable (although I did, in a variety of ways. Hence our son). Back then the right thing was to stick a huge great distance between us, get my own head together because *I* wasn’t in a good place for a relationship, let alone him. And let him deal with his own issues in a way that didn’t drive me insane.
I don’t know the details of Nana’s story but I tend to think that if you’re on BR looking for answers and Natalie’s description of EUM behaviour rings enough bells for you to bite the bullet and face the (not-very-nice) reality of the situation, then NC is the sensible option.
In my situation as it is now, I don’t necessarily need to know that it’s definitely going to work out or that I definitely won’t be hurt if it ends or that one or both of us won’t decide that it isn’t right for us. Having said that, I know that I CAN now trust him to be honest, not to mess up my mind by making me question reality, to treat me with respect and courtesy, not to suddenly rewrite everything that’s happened according to how he feels on any one day, not to disregard how I feel, to make decisions based on rational reasons rather than knee-jerk reactions and to make decisions about the relationship with reference to me and the actual relationship, rather than whatever issues he might be working through at the time.
I should add that it’s a completely different – and much nicer – experience than it was four years ago!
So far as Nana is concerned, I’d recommend reading this post https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/if-someone-has-truly-changed-theres-growth-and-a-change-in-their-habits/
I’m all for making yourself vulnerable, but only if the other person has shown that they’re safe to be vulnerable around.
First time I posted and am really warmed by all of your comments. I understand what Mary is saying but unfortunately I am not in a situation where there is room for honest communication. I’ve been lied to, talked down to, cheated on etc. for two years and never been able to stand up for my self and set boundaries; until now. The break up was two months ago but he still gets to me, especially when he reaches out at times, when I am especially vulnerable and nostalgic. I felt empowered yesterday after reading all your comments and when he called me late at night I picked up. I told him there was no need for us to talk since him saying that he wants to make up for the two years of bad behavior and be everything I ever wanted, is never going to happen. That I want to move on and he should respect that. Of course he couldn’t, so I ended the conversation. I feel at peace. I haven’t been able to say it to him like that before (I had to put a ocean in between us instead). Next time he reaches out I will remember how I felt the time I fell for all his flattery. At least I had my closure. Even though he doesn’t think of it that way. My last word will be action.
Hi Nana,
You’re doing well. The process of detaching takes time and sometimes. depending upon who you are, it’s step by step. But, once you’ve reached the point MENTALLY where you’re really through it’s always very good protection to BLOCK HIM from access to you. If you don’t, it’s tantamount to waiting for his call. Why put yourself in that situation? This is how many women go back on what they promised themselves. Now, you haven’t said you’re ready for full on NC, but isn’t that what you’re moving toward? Don’t stay in a situation in which you are susceptible to being charmed (again) and end up weakening. Go NC and be committed. You state you’ve had your closure and the next step is action. Now is the time. Don’t wait for his next call. Keep reminding yourself that it’s time you took better care of Nana. And calling or texting to tell him what you’re doing is unnecessary. He’ll figure it out. He’s not stupid.
Yoghurt, MaryM was referring to Brene Brown’s work with vulnerability and what she calls “Daring Greatly.” I don’t think that we need to wait until we’re sure it’s safe to open up–we can’t because as you say there are no guarantees. BB tells a story in one of her TED talks that a young man who read her book worked up the courage to be vulnerable at tell his girlfriend he loved her. Her response was “you’re great, but I think we should date other people.” He went back to his apartment, fuming with rage at Brene Brown’s terrible advice and told his housemates what happened and they said “don’t you know, girls only like you when you’re running the other way?” He thought for a moment and said, “No. I was daring greatly.” The point of vulnerability (according to BB) is not that it opens us up to love but that it opens us up to everything–sadness and grief and joy and love. She said that the research subjects who thought themselves most worthy of love (whether they were in relationships or not) were the ones who could open themselves up in that way but could stay grounded and whole even if the feedback wasn’t what they’d hoped.
Easier said than done, right?
Yea… I didn’t think that what I said was at odds with that but it was late when I posted so I might not have been the clearest!
When I thought about it a bit further I thought about the difference between seeing son’s dad before (during the pregnancy etc, neither of us in great shape) and seeing him now. It’s like the difference between asking an actor what he wants for his tea when he’s on stage and in character (“Tea? TEA? What, is this a menu I see before me” etc) and afterwards, when he’s in his dressing-room, has taken off his costume and is hungry. In the first instance you a) won’t get any sort of meaningful answer and b) probably won’t get any sort of dialogue. In the second then you will.
I think that you have to be open to all of life’s experiences (including the risk of a broken heart) but I also think that, with an EUM, it’s not a genuine interaction or a genuine ‘experience’. It’s just one or both of you working out your issues on the other person, regardless of who either of you actually are.
I’m still not being very clear! Oh well…
Yogurt
I understand. It IS different.
You said there are things you don’t necessarily need to know, and that’s how I feel. I also feel there will be a time when I DO need to know. I guess that will be the yes\no point. I will know it when I get there.
I am reflecting a lot on my own values, enjoying myself, my hobbies and even happier in my work relationships which
I’d written off as just one of those things.
I have no opinion on whether it’s a good idea for you to rekindle this relationship. It is up to you, it’s your life, your feelings, your decision. But, yeah, I do hope it goes well for the three of you.
Thanks Grace, that warmed my heart 🙂 I hope it goes well for you too.
I don’t know if it’s a good idea, either, but I do know is that I’ll survive if it goes south, I’ve still got my feet firmly on the floor and my head in reality and that whatever happens, at least we’ve been brave and given it a go.
Also it’s nice and right now we’re both happy.
To be honest, the thing that’s bothering me most is skulking around reading-but-not-posting BR because I don’t want to be dishonest about it but nor do I want to swan about being the exception to the rule. Least I’ve bitten that bullet.
Keetseel
Right, there’s no vulnerability to doggedly staying in a relationship regardless. That’s putting a wall up as well. You’re protecting yourself from decisions and consequences.
It’s a conundrum.
MaryM
I hear what you’re saying. I don’t think BR is at odds with that, but one can mistakenly come away with the impression (well, at least I did) that we can pretty much guarantee that we won’t get hurt by avoiding this or doing that. We can’t. That’s what risk and vulnerability is. There is no guarantee.
My counsellor said to me “by trying to gain control you lose it”. I thought “huh”? I don’t get it yet, but I think there’s a nugget of truth in there.
However, it’s guaranteed that a person who has you on rotation, or who is married, or lies etc is not a good bet! Mind you, I’m sure some have had good relationships come even from that (not seen it myself). It is their choice.
I like this comment by Grace.
Dating is always a gamble, and one that most times won’t pan out. The boundaries are there, because we are communicating that we will only take that gamble if the odds are good enough to justify the risk. Not only is this self-protection, it is sexy: I am self confident enough that I’m not going to risk myself on someone shady.
Thus: https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/12-core-boundaries-to-live-by-in-life-dating-relationships/
P.S. I’m in treatment now for alcoholism so I am also undateable (and have been for ten years) by boundary #10.
Well said, Grace! If we’re going to date, there really is no “emotional bubble wrap” that can keep us from hurt feelings, BUT dating with healthy beliefs and boundaries give us a way better chance of avoiding that wretched, vile, pit-of-the-stomach feeling of being used or taken for a fool. There’s a heck of a difference between “I’m sad because it didn’t work out” and “I’m in a heap of despair because this guy I thought I was dating exclusively has just announced his engagement. To his ex.” I’ll take the former over the latter all day 🙂
Mary M,
There are simply some crap people out there that do not deserve our ‘vulnerability.’ I feel you are being naive.
Nana,
NC speaks volumes. If you inform him, you will seem wishy washy. Don’t look for any excuse to speak.
Block!
Nana,
DO NOT inform him of anything. That just gives him an opportunity to reel you back in. KEEP NC and BLOCK him everywhere if you’re serious.
The other good thing about a firm ‘no’ is that you are making a decision. Being in the indecisive zone and feeling the conflicting emotions that go with it can cause horrible and unnecessary suffering.
🙂
Mary,
I disagree. It is a benefit to look at a person or situation that has been presented to you with an open, questioning mind and mull over what they have said or done without assumptions and anger. We should be open to opportunities to learn from human behavior. However, I believe you have to consider the situation. The title of the post is “Sometimes A Hard “No” Is The Only Option You’ve Got”. Nana apparently has decided that continuing to engage with this person is not a health endeavor for her. So, in light of that, I don’t see where a highly psychological, intellectual approach is relevant in her case. As Natalie indicates, sometimes you’ve got to get down to grass roots, develop a backbone and deal with the AC in a manner that is going to benefit you. You sound like you’re advising her to “hear him out”. Why? Apparently, she has already done that, decided to leave but has trouble getting behind her decision. She should be supported in THAT DECISION, and not made to have second thoughts. You, yourself, posted about your difficulty in ridding yourself of a MM, making improper advances to you in an environment where professionality is key, AND, you barely know him. I posted to you what I thought was an expedient remedy. I don’t think it was mean or “harsh” as you’ve said some posters have been. I just think that it is always best to get one’s head out of the clouds and be real. See things for what they truly ARE, and then base our behavior on that.
Right on Tink, I agree with your initial response to Mary M, however I think Mary “M”and Mary “W” are two different posters. Just my guess though.
So…not all men (people) have good seeds inside them. Some are toxic and deserve the boot without our waiting around, yet again, for them to find their nice selves buried under the thick crap exterior. While having compassion for those who struggle (don’t we all), it’s not our job to fix broken people at our own expense. What MaryM describes is a very nice gentle human approach, and this is a good way to be, but not to the point you are a doormat for broken people and there is a pattern. There needs to be a balance between vulnerability and self preservation, imo.
Good catch, Selkie. Yes, this is the first time I’ve posted here; although I’ve gained much from the wisdom of others for over a year.
I hesitated to share my thoughts today because I did not want to muddy the waters, yet I’ve not fully resolved NC, although I practice it. It sometimes just feels so weird to have been closely deeply bonded for decades . . . then nothing, forever.
No disrespect intended, and I value the decisiveness of others posting in support of Nana’s hard decision.
Nickster,
What a warm, wise post! Let us hear from you more often, please? Your words are right on point and a valuable contribution to BR. Looking forward to your posting. Tink.
MaryM,
I don’t feel your comment was disrespectful at all. I think many of us here DO have walls up after our experiences, and being vulnerable is what got us here, but healing is a process with different stages. I believe finding balance between having our own backs while keeping our hearts open is a reachable goal. I do agree, if we close our hearts and are bitter, our future is bleak. I love Brene Brown and her message. I think being vulnerable while having a healthy self esteem is the key. I was vulnerable with low self esteem and the result was being steam rolled over. Once we believe in ourselves (I’m getting there), I think we’ll be better able and more genuine at believing in others again.
Selkie,
I agree. There is a tendency for many of us to feel bitter and have walls in place. Vulnerability is out of the question. I may just be reiterating what you’ve said but it bears repeating nevertheless. Being vulnerable is a wonderful quality in a relationship in which BOTH parties are sincerely open and have shown consistently honorable intentions. It’s not such a gamble when the other party has proven time and time again his trustworthiness so that we feel safe.
Mary M.
Welcome. I promise not to confuse you two Mary’s again. Your ideas are lovely for a normal, worthwhile relationship. AC’s have to be dealt differently d/t their lies, conniving, fast forwarding and future faking, generally preying on your kindness and desire to “hang in there” at all costs. That’s what makes them AC’s. You state your NC is not resolved? You’ll get there. It’s something that you have to be fully committed to MENTALLY FIRST before you can be unwaveringly successful. Don’t reminisce the good times. Remember the bad. That’s for starters. Good luck. Tink.
Yep, wasn’t me, Tink! I couldn’t reply to your question on the other post (thread too skinny) but I’m putting my thoughts together to write something on this post because I have problems with both soft and hard ‘no’s.
Also, thinking of changing my name here to something less common and less like my real name 😉
MaryW
Selkie,
SHUCKS! You’re right! I did confuse them. I did think there was something “off” about Mary M’s post, but didn’t realize that I confused her with Mary W. The former person I “know” whereas the latter person I don’t. As per Mary M’s post I’m still feeling what I said. I’m glad you saw, as you read further that I used Mary W’s situation as a back up for the point I was making. THANKS!
Switch that. I “know” Mary W, but not Mary M. Time to shut down for awhile. LOL!
Mary M. and Tinkerbell: thank you both for Insightful comments.
I can see both points being true about how we determine if/when to flush (say NO).
Right now my hand is on the flush handle itching for any little reason to flush, but i know that this is because in my past relationship i was burned badly because i did not flush.
So it’s about finding a balance and knowing your limits and when your boundries are crossed enough times, then yes – it’s time to flush. its kinda sad to have to start over again but you are wiser for next time.
Good luck and thank you.
NO is no! When 2 people breakup, that means they move on with their lives. That’s the way it should be. But, it’s very difficult to do this when an ex is periodically texting, calling, emailing, cyber stalking, harassing. The chances are very high for a relapse or many. And this is why NC and a firm NO are usually required. Especially, if the relationship was toxic and you are hurting, trying to get over it. I’m certain that every single girl on this site gave her guy plenty of chances for conversation and negotiation. But, it’s virtually impossible to get any good results when your dealing with an AC and/or EUM. They don’t want to change. They want to reset and start the craziness all over again.
Sparkle,
You’re so right.
I have tried many soft no’s or hard no’s which have gradually dissolved over time (along with my resolve). I have given the AC so many chances that I have lost count!
It is rather embarrassing to admit that after one year, I still allowed him to break NC as easily as if nothing ever happened between us.
A hard NO was long overdue and put into motion by me last week, a year too late. But maybe this is it.
…if you say “yes’ when you really want to say no..” is where our conflict starts. The ambivalence of our feelings, which are not black and white, yes or no, all or nothing. Most of us go back and forth, weigh positives and negatives, pros and cons…but to make an internal change, the “hard” no only option so often comes as a final internal struggle. I’ll say “no” now because I just can’t take it any more. I’ll say “no” because I am exhausted, emotionally and drained, and I don’t understand anything any more, but I must say no or lose my mind. We say “no” at the bitter end. What we need to learn is to say “no” when we feel and experience amber alerts and red flags early on.
“Just say no” was a public service announcement from a former U.S president’s wife to resist taking drugs and having premarital sex. Saying “no” must be the hardest thing a person can say.
Simple Pleasures, this is great. I could have saved myself so much grief! I waited till I was completely devalued before my final hard “No.” He just bulldozed through my soft ones because I didn’t really get behind them by drawing a hard line.
Hi S.P.
Excellent point. You’re so right. More often than not, we should have said “No” and stuck to it a long time ago when it involved someone who didn’t mean us any good.
Well I’ve tried both ways saying no to my boss, but as I am his assistant he can push me around and will just talk over me and bully me into doing tasks that arn’t in my position. I have come to a calm conclusion that he is a small, weak man and that I am paid at the end of the day a very good wage. But also that I cannot change him, so am looking for my next career change.
Saying “No” to people does not come easily to me since I grew up thinking that I had to make sacrifices and take care of the needs of others above my own. I no longer want to take care of others or be nice to them by ignoring or undermining my own needs and boundaries. I cannot thank BR enough for helping me recognize things that needed to change in me and the steps I could take to assess people more accurately.
Recently, as I said in the former post, I decided to decline a dinner invitation. I am glad to report that after sending my email to Mr. Supper, I received a nice reply from him, saying that he understands and hopes that he gets to meet me whenever I have some time for him.
I do not regret declining his dinner invitation and I am reminding myself to trust this newfound friend at a slow place based on his actions and words. I no longer want to be in professional and personal relationships in which I have to act as a doormat – someone thoughtlessly, half-heartedly, habitually, resentfully submitting to the demands or requests of others to the detriment of her actual feelings.
Because of this seemingly small incident, I got in touch with one of my deep-seated fears – the fear of people gossiping about me and rejecting me as a result of the gossip. I do not want to live under this fear. I have realized that I hesitate to say “No”, primarily because I am afraid of turning the other person against me. But I cannot see the point in retaining a contact by betraying myself. I feel sick pretending to do or say something that is not reflective of my actual feelings.
To overcome my fear of people badmouthing and rejecting me, I am trying my best to focus on myself. How can I increase my value within my professional and personal circles? How can I increase my self-confidence and capacity to deal with gossipers, opponents, betrayers? These are the things that I think I need to focus on in order to stop saying “Yes” when I want or ought to say “No”.
Instead of worrying about pleasing people, I am focusing on achieving success in the goals I set for myself – focusing on my priorities and staying in touch with my feelings is helping me care less about what others think of me. The less I fear rejection or opposition to follow my “No”, the easier it is becoming for me to say “No”. It is not easy for me to say “No”. I have a lot to learn.
One thing I did learn from my recent experience is that identifying, confronting, and overcoming our fear of turning people against us is crucial for building a backbone and learning to say “No”. Mature, sincere, and caring people do not reject or punish others for saying “No”, for speaking the truth.
Nigella–I’m glad to hear that turned out well! That was huge. Congrats on sticking to your guns.
Just a thought on what Mary M said. I’ve been reading BR for years and I used to read and have similar thoughts to you, Mary M – I’d think: where’s the communication, the compassion, the opening of hearts etc etc. However, that’s because I was still in a damaging relationship and was caught up in what is called ‘Spiritual Bypassing,’ – i.e., cutting straight to the compassion and fluffy stuff without feeling any of the very natural, very healthy ‘WTF!!! how dare you do this to me’ feelings that we BR followers evidently find very hard to access. (This came from reading too many self help books and not feeling my feelings enough. I;ve always been the kind of person who would, say, rather read about being in the moment than, you know, actually be in the moment.)
So, although what Mary M says is a lovely thought and great when applied to healthy relationships (where both people want to make things work but are just confused and scared), it’s actually just more procrastination and excuse-making for those of us who are, essentially, addicted to these bad relationships.
The only way I got out was to understand it was like a very severe drug addiction. There’s no point telling yourself a little bit will do you no harm, or that it will be different this time. It is what it is, and it will do what it does, and it’s something in our attachment in our past that attracts us to the situation – the highs and the lows both. But we can’t win, because the game isn’t designed that way. You sort of have to go into recovery, go NC (cold turkey), get therapy, rebuild from the ground up and then, when that black hole inside is filled, now,with love and compassion and care and respect for yourself – those AC situations just won’t hold any attraction anymore and life will feel so good you’ll hardly believe it. That’s been my experience and I thank god I didn’t let the relationship run on any longer, because, not to sound dramatic, but it was destroying me. or, I guess, I was destroying me.
It’s grim when you are in the thick of detaching, of course – utterly wretched and heartbreaking and almost unbearable- but…it just has to be done. In a way, what Mary M said made me smile because, if you’re a BR disciple, there’s probably not one of us than can honestly say, “Gee, I just don’t think I gave that AC enough chances…” Ha. I wish.
This is such an incredible site, with amazing people, not least Nat who is doing something utterly unique here – I always feel amongst friends when I visit, tho I don’t often post. Big love to all and keep going. It’s a tough old journey but the rewards are incredible.
Nickster
“Gee, I just don’t think I gave that AC enough chances…”
That made me laugh. When I look back on my previous relationship there were a few that deserved another chance, not least more commitment from me.
But none of those men were ACs.
Nickster,
I really like what you said.
MaryM’s comment made me smile too. I loved the spirit in which it was said. I’d like to approach life like that, instead of covered in armor, but it’s a work in progress to find middle ground. You’re right, many of us had an abundance of compassion for our ex’s, and mixed with low self esteem, gave them the benefit of the doubt over and over, chance after chance. I my case, I wanted HIM to see the good in him. Translation: I tried to change him. I ended up wrecked. The most respectful thing I did for both of us was to end the unhealthy cycle and go NC.
Nickster,
I had previously complimented your posting but it landed further up on the thread. Please, let us hear from you more often if possible.
Also, I thought we were talking about long established relationships that have already proven to be unhealthy. Dating is still in the discovery phase so much of what we’ve bandied about does not apply (yet). You’ve got to get to know the person first..
My last post of the day!
Brene Brown has been mentioned. Aside from the fact that I’ve not been impressed by her on Oprah’s tv commercial that Brene is going to be her guest very soon, I want to make one little point, if I may. I think for us BR disciples, (I like that word Nickster used) in particular, we need to be carefully selective about whose philosophies we embrace, questioning if what they’re saying “fits” for us. That goes for books, motivational speakers, relationship gurus, etc. We are searching for help to improve our lives, find contentment and attain fullfillment, and because of that in itself we are already vulnerable in that aspect willingly or not.
Exception. If an individual that you barely know has the nerve to come at you in an unmistakeably obnoxious manner, then, of course, a hard “No” is appropriate. If that person wields some kind of power over you, i.e., your boss then you have to summon your diplomatic side but still be firm. I’m sure there must be other exceptions than that and when you’re still in the discovery phase of dating. Very good discussion, Natalie, thanks to you.
Thanks guys! It’s good to be part of the conversation.
The problem that I sometimes have is telling someone “yes” when I didn’t really want to, and then having to back my way out of it. I would rather tell them “NO” in the first place – but I have trouble with trying not to hurt peoples’ feelings.
-Beth
Love Ourselves More
Beth,
It may help to remember that you will upset people more if you say yes and then back out of things repeatedly. Most people are fine with a no (and those who aren’t may not be worth your time anyways), but no one appreciates being told yes and later finding out that the answer was actually no.
A
Actually what you’re describing is one aspect of EU behaviour. They will not give it to you straight but let you down in hurtful ways. (not keeping promises, weaselly behaviour, blatantly untruthful excuses and no shows. It’s humiliating being on the other end of that behaviour.
If you have integrity yes means yes and no means no and you keep your word.
I have myself sometimes said yes to things and then later regretted it, but I am trying hard to make a point of following through, or explaining clearly and immediately if it proves unworkable.
I have had one female friend in particular do this to me, and she isn’t a friend any more.
Beth,
I agree with A. Nothing is worse than flakey behavior – nothing makes me more nuts than someone who is not dependable.
People will not be upset and certainly respect you more if you say no.
Just yesterday I gave a soft “no” and it was met with respect and the request still on offer, which is great. I actually had to turn down a very good offer because I am not in the right place to take it.
It was very somber for me and even a bit heartbreaking, though I continue to emanate gratitude at the offer/inquiry and always will even if nothing amount to it.
A couple years ago I gave a hard “no” to my father. I really just had to spell it out for him: “There is nothing on offer from me to you.” Thankfully he left me alone for the most part and continues to do so. I hope forever. Same with the ex.
The word ‘NO’ was never an option when I was growing up. If I tried to object with ‘I don’t like that, I don’t want to do that etc’, it was ‘Do as you are told or, do as I say’ sometimes with the aid of a hard hand across the backside or the back of the legs to get the message across.
So I grew up not knowing how to say NO and would say yes so I wouldn’t get punished and have my parents withdraw their affection and attention which usually happened.
Fast forward a few decades and I was pathetically grateful if anyone showed me attention and affection and I still didn’t know how to say no in case all this lovely attention would be withdrawn.
All this people pleasing and being a doormat turned into a downward spiral that got me into more and more bad situations, que the ex AC coming into my life several years ago and I was at my wits end … He saw me coming with my low self esteem, people pleasing behaviours and all the rest of the crap I was carrying around.
Then I found BR like most of us who have finally hit rock bottom and know that a change has to happen and it has to start with ourselves.
It’s still hard to say no all the time but I now say, ‘Let me think about it and I’ll get back to you’. This gives me time to work out if it will suit me and if I will have time to get involved or not depending on what I’m being asked to do.
Then I can say ‘No, that isn’t going to work for me’ and if I get pushed to change my mind I just keep repeating the same thing. No excuses, no justifications!
I’m also starting to give an unequivocal ‘No thanks’, with a smile, to people and situations that I don’t want to get involved with.
I get this little thrill when I have successfully said no, it makes me feel so good and I haven’t had to be impolite or compromise my boundaries.
If someone doesn’t like it, that’s their problem not mine. That’s been a hard one for me to come to grips with, trying to be nice to everyone and I have found that people lose respect for you if you are going down that people pleasing road and being a doormat. That’s when the abuse starts and gets worse if you hang around for more.
I’m never going down that road again.
Its been a month since I chose to say No and go No contact. I spoke to a close friend and she said I should be quite proud of myself I do feel that way but its the long wknd and I miss him.Ive been doing this self analysis where I ask myself what do I miss and I cant seem to name one ..I would go as far as to tag him as AC but EU and immature.. Uggh it feels so bad I just want to be hugged right now but I dont deserve crumbs of affection. I feel a bit better letting this out.
NCicanda,
I get exactly how you feel, honey.
I ask myself the “why do I miss him??” question every day. I think we really just need to be strong through this and realise that it happened because it had to – we had to get out of the hell we were in and it can only get better from here.
On nights like these I just stay away from reminiscing and call up some close friends or just put on a comedy and crawl into bed with hot chocolate.
Be there for you. And make sure you keep telling yourself it will get better because I’m sure it will get better for you!
Good luck and hugs x
Thank you :-)… I met up with a friend that is going through a divorce and man did it help me put stuff into perspective about relationships .. OUFFFFFF missing him just went out of the window .. lol !
Sometimes I still say yes instead of no – but when I realize it was a mistake, I say sorry, but its: No! Better than going along with people and plans I don’t need in my life.
Hi everyone,
I’m finding it so very hard tonight. Not sure why, as it has been mostly okay for the past few days, but here I am, collapsed in a pool of tears and wondering if I am ever going to get better.
For the past year I have been giving myself a soft No whenever I felt like contacting him and finding out more about him, but suddenly, last Wednesday, I decided that enough was enough and forced myself to stop for good.
I have given myself a hard “NO.” and finally blocked him everywhere and yet, I have never felt more broken or helpless.
I cannot believe it has been over a year since we broke up and I am still struggling to move on. I guess I am taking baby steps, but it is so hard.
He cheated and abused me many times, but I have not much but love and desire in my heart for him. I have forgiven him already and yet he neither cares, nor can I move on.
No-one told me it was going to be so hard. No one said it would hurt me every day forever.
I just want it to stop.
It will pass. I know it seems impossible but you will get over it. If you feel sad, it is ok, but don’t think you will feel this way forever. Try to self indulge, do something new or something you use to live to do. Don’t bit yourself up for having this bad relapse. Carry on.
Thanks Allie, I want it to pass too, but I feel so guilty everytime I catch myself thinking of him!
This is a permanent move away though, so I know there is no way he can contact me (save stalking me).
But I have felt like time is running out for me to find someone, and all the time I am stuck in this rut, time is running even faster!
Just her
It’s like the childrens book “Going on a bear hunt”. You cant go under, over or round it, you have to go through it. It will get better, be sure of that. I know the feeling of my heart literally aching. A new experience, in my 40s too. I’ll always have a weakness where he’s concerned, I think, which is why NC has to be forever, but I really do not feel that sadness any more.
Use whatever support you have available, do the things that help you feel better even if only temporarily.
I confided in very few people, because he and I were married, but it did help and deepened some of my friendships.
I do feel it has changed me for the better.
Mymble,
Wasn’t that a great book! I still remember it.
I also think I will always go weak whenever he comes into my life, but at least it is now unlikely to happen. This NC is forever this time.
I confided in many, sometimes scared that the word will get around, but I didn’t care because he hurt me.
I may regret that in years to come, but honestly, who knows?
I am going through it, but the going just seems endless.
Just,
Have you considered counseling?
Allison,
I’m on a waiting list for CBT. I can’t afford counselling privately so this is really the only way available to me.
I did try to see a local community counsellor for a while (they only do four sessions), but it didn’t help much.
I hope I get a place on this though and that it does something positive for me.
My doctor has offered anti-depressants, but medicines scare me and I don’t want to get into that whole mess.
I broke NC a few weeks ago and we had been about 65 Nc before that. We have gotten into 3 arguments, one being tonight. I’m so confused. He talks and texts me everyday since we’ve broken NC and we see each other everyday. He tells me he loves me and hugs me and kisses me and tells me he likes me more than a friend, but tells me he cannot be my boyfriend. In the last few arguments he tells me I’m argumentative and although misses me during NC, is better off because there’s no drama. He is sending me such confusing messages and I’m just an utter wreck. I love this man more than any man I’ve ever met. Why is he doing this? I need advice. I’m so sad and so confused. The emotional pain is so physically painful. We’ve been broken up 16 months now and continue on what feels like a roller coaster. Part of me so wants to believe he loves me and is scared and the other part of me feels like he’s playing a game. He has just recently been on a few dates and said he can’t take it to the next level with them because he still loves me. He hasn’t kissed another woman since we broke up. Please HELP! 🙁
Wendy, I feel for you, but unfortunately if he is telling you he can’t be your boyfriend and you want him to be then you have to let him go because no matter what other lines he saying that is the truthful one and that is the one his actions match.
You only have his word about what he is doing with those other women how much do you trust his word?
I’m sorry but the situation sounds too painful to stay in and I know it is painful to be out of it as well but ultimately it will be more of a benefit to you.
Maybe try reading the book ‘He’s Scared, She’s Scared.’
Wendy
Yes, I expect he does love you and he is scared.
But what can you do? You could wait forever for him to be unscared. You’ve already waited sixteen months.
Wendy,
He said he can’t be your boyfriend. Please listen. He gets all the benefits of a boyfriend without the commitment, my goodness he is even dating others. He’s not in this relationship, nor will he ever be again. His actions are saying it all.
Please don’t put yourself through anymore of this – I’ve been there too – and reinitiate NC, Immediately! Block all forms of contact and never see this man again. You certainly deserve someone who wants you and does not play games.
Hugs
Lastly, he see you as a friend.
Wendy. YOU ARE NOT NC WITH THIS MAN. So stop calling it that. Seeing each other and hugging and kissing? What kind of NC is that. You’re either IN or you’re out. And, right now you’re still IN, so delete “NC” from your vocabulary. it is not a term or an action that we BR ladies throw around carelessly. It’s in important process which is supposed to empower us. It’s not a joke.
EUM Roberto,
Yr headed on a one way trip to disaster with any LD r.ships. Unless there is a time limit by which it would cease to be LD the sitch is just another variation on emotional unavailability, on both sides. What are you willing to offer this woman exactly? A real life r.ship with love, care, trust, care & respect? Are you headed for COMMITTMENT with this woman? If not, stop dicking around & return to working on yrself.
That is the mail straight up. It is the voice of experience!
I’m slowly sorting thru things here but income still not sorted yet. A guy sent me a txt asking me out. I did not reply. I was thinking of what BR has taught me. If he couldn’t be bothered phoning to ask me I decided he wasn’t worth it (besides, I’m still ill, so unavailable). I didn’t find my no hard (as implied by just not replying but I’m missing having a man in my life. I’m also STILL grieving ex now deceased AC as can’t process all that untill my income is secure & my life back on track. Have.been blaming myself even for his death. Crazy I know. Sigh.
justher
time is a great healer in terms of getting perspective. if he was emotionally abusive yr prolly also withdrawing from toxic bonding & elements of stockholm syndrome.
if yr not already, consider getting counselling. it’s important to do some serious evaluating of what this ‘r.ship’ has cost you. when you get really clear on that yr anger will begin to surface &.strengthen yr resolve.
hang in there! many of us here have been where u r now & I promise if u stay the nc path, it WILL pass.
teach xx
Teach, he was emotionally and (rarely) physically abusive. But I was addicted to him. Some days I literally spent every second with him, and we saw each other every single day for at least 5 or 6 hours (and spent every single night together) for 2 years.
I couldn’t bear to be apart and missed him like hell all the time. I still do (some part of me) but it is less of a physical need.
I have signed up for CBT, but don’t know when I will get a place, as I can’t afford counselling.
I am determined to stay on the NC path this time, after breaking it or weakening it so so many times previously. It is all or nothing now.
wendy
the guy is a douche! it’s a toxic r.ship. there is no fixing it. u need to get out. the sooner the better. dont believe the bs re cant kiss another woman ect. thts all just waffle aimed at manipulating u. cut yr losses. now.
teach x
Teach,
Yaaaayyyy! You’re doing the right thing! If he can’t trouble himself to pick up the phone to ask you out he’s not worth your time. Also, I applaud you for wanting to improve your health before dating and possibly embarking on a relationship. Would YOU want to date someone who was ill? I think not. Also, I’m wishing you better luck in finding employment. All the best.
MaryW,
You did not ramble on. This is a very serious situation that has gotten out of hand. This woman is the one who is being selfish and grossly inconsiderate. She has no business barging into your office, uninvited, taking a seat and launching into a long story of a personal nature. There’s lunch hour for that. And, I’m sure you don’t want to spend your lunch hour day after day listening to her. You don’t have to feel that you owe her. She has already gone beyond the point where you owe her anything – you’ve already paid her back. Please, Mary, tell her that you have to do your work and have no time to listen. That’s the truth, is it not? How old is she, 12? Sounds like she needs to grow up. Be professional. Being Ms. Softee is not going to get you anywhere in this particular situation, especially when your boss has seen her in your office on a number of occasions. If you can’t handle it, then put it in your boss’s lap. This way he/she will know that you are not encouraging this behavior from her. The last thing you need is this woman jeopardizing your work, your income, ability to pay your bills and consequently your future. Your job is nothing to play around with. Be strong. Stand up for yourself. Get your work done. She can go bother someone else. Imo, there’s not other option for you than to be straightforward and businesslike with her.
Well after a cold hard NO to friendship my ex fb EUM has never respected my NO and keeping NC has been a nightmare. It is my fault, it’s been 3 months of hell post breakup because I kept responding to attempts saying leave me alone, or if you missed me and loved me so much you would change. I am completely emotionally drained and my boundaries have been tested. BUT I has a big breakthrough this weekend. My ex I had never caught lying, cheating, or in any sort of deceit, but he always seemed “mysterious” , aloof, and had very clear issues with getting close during our relationship. I had always thought of him as a guy with major issues (he admits to) since childhood with relationships, before me as well, but an honest and good guy. Well, this weekend has changed my view some. He has no stopped contacting me saying he misses me, and thinks of me every day, and that I am who he’d want to be in a relationship with, and I went out to the bar to find him with a new woman. He was drunk and stupid enough to introduce her as his gf to me, I responded to her asking her if she was his gf last weekend, she replied “yes”, mind you my ex was texting me all these things. I finally realized he isn’t who I thought. If he treats her this way by emotionally cheating with me, I was no different….it’s who HE IS. I would NEVER do this to somebody. I would stay single if I truly wasn’t over an ex, not lead a poor soul on. I told her everything and how he was a peice of work because I was so ill angry after all this time he has a gf and won’t leave me alone. Nothing was stopping him from being with me but him having “issues” , issues he’s passing on to the next victim. She seemed like a decent quiet girl, a perfect victim for him. He then proceeded to call me next day and say he’s in a trapped relationship because she is in his circle of friends and a hook up turned into dating he didn’t want, and that he told her he needs to think about things because he’s not over me (don’t know if I believe him at this point) and called me to tell me he loves me so incredibly much, misses so much about me including waking up next to me, and that his feelings with this woman are nothing compared to us. In my mind I’m like, WHAT IS STOPPING YOU? I wanted to even stay with this guy through therapy. I wouldn’t doubt he stays with this woman, and honestly I don’t envy her one bit, she is being disrespected with this phone calls and texts he sends to me. And it has finally opened my eyes that he is not the one, and trust is truly gone for the first time. I can finally go NC and know there’s no hope left but to move on completely. It’s been a hard, sad, wake up call. Because I think we all truly want to believe we feel bad for some of these guys, but at this point it’s obvious it’s all a manipulation game 🙁
Like other posters, I don’t think I really had “no” in my vocabulary as a child. The first time I recall saying no and really putting my foot down at about age 13/14 when I refused to go to religious classes after school. Within the next year or two I’d started rebelling non verbally.
Similar to Natalie, I hard a hard time saying “no” to boys and still have a hard time saying no to men. Because this is an ongoing problem – along with many others like attachment and abandonment issues – I’m opting out of the world of dating.
All was going relatively smoothly until a MM started advancing on me. I’m getting more and more edgy and antsy as the conference we’re both going to gets nearer. I know a polite and professional “no” is what’s required but I am nervous about it. And pissed off with him for being put in this position.
Another thing that’s really winding me up is a colleague who I’m close to, and her ever increasing demands on my time for support. Her situation is sad and complicated; a family member is ill & she still lives at home (age 40) and has all these other dramas going on. I’ve listened and listened. I’ve gently offered advise. I’ve suggested she use the counselling/ psychological services available for staff, but she turned up half hour late for the assessment, cancelled the first proper session and turned up half an hour late for the second session.
She comes into my office and just sits down and expects me to give up my time. I am her friend and care for her a lot but feel I’ve done as much as I can. And I simply can’t spare an hour plus each day listening to her. Our boss has “caught” her in my office many times, and call me selfish but I don’t want to get into trouble myself.
There isn’t even an opportunity to say “no” here because she doesn’t ask if I have time to talk – she just comes in and sits down. I end up being either rude and ignoring her/ just mumble a few words (at which point she walks out – that’s only happened twice mind you), or I lose 20-30 minutes of work time. And then it happens at least once again later in the day.
I’m at the point where I really resent her and then I feel disappointed with myself for being a shit friend. This colleague listened to me without judgement when I’ve been going through various woes about different men over the past few years soi feel that I owe her.
I shared all this with a mutual colleague and she feels the same frustrations about not being able to help her, but the mutual colleague doesn’t have her turning up in her office 2-3 times per day. Today (my day off), she texted me asking me to write her a reference and I almost exploded! I’ve let it get too far.
I’m formulating a “soft no”, which is actually a cop out but also true: that my boss has noticed the amount of time she spends in my office (not working) and doesn’t approve. Which is true. I already spoke to my boss about it because I am embarrassed each time we’re “caught out”.
I’m trying to help her, but it’s driving me a bit nuts and I’m becoming a not-very-nice person around her.
I know I’m a Florence, by the way, but it turns out I’m a very impatient Florence!
Apologies for the long ramble but this has been stewing away at me.
Hi MaryW
Please don’t be so hard on yourself. There’s plenty of positives you can take out of this situation. First, your friend / colleague thinks highly enough of you to value your opinion and your ability to listen empathically – not everyone has that ability and yet, in my opinion, it’s fundamental to any meaningful connection between two people (in whatever context).
Secondly, you obviously have a level of self-awareness that allows you to look at your actions, identify what’s causing you angst and resolve to do things differently. Again, not everyone has that.
I completely understand that asserting your needs can be a difficult thing to do when you’ve grown up not doing so and, in my case, suppressing them, let alone asserting them. I still have difficulty doing it and can clearly understand where that arises from. I vividly recall an incident when I was a teenager and my mum called to me to come down from my room for our evening meal and I, rather impudently it has to be said, shouted back ‘no’ (I think I was at a crucial point in my computer game at that point). Anyway, next thing I know my dad has grabbed me by the throat, pinned me against my bed and with his clenched fist only centimetres from my face. To this day, I still have a fear (which I know is no longer warranted) that if I express a ‘no’, in any situation, it might give rise to an unwelcome response.
I guess the point I’m trying to make is that you’re not alone in experiencing problems with assertion. Many people don’t even have the self-awareness to recognise these issues in themselves, let alone resolve to address them. Changing ingrained habits and responses takes time and please don’t berate yourself if your progress isn’t as immediate as you would wish. Instead, give yourself some compassion that you’re making progress towards addressing the things you’ve identified and some credit for the qualities you have.
Iain
Thank you Iain. Your response really means a lot, especially after the opinion of another that I’m creating a drama of this. I’m simply trying to learn and improve, not create drama.
I’m so sorry for your nasty experience. I can’t pinpoint one incident so clearly, rather a lifetime of suppressed emotions.
You’re right that I shouldn’t expect changes to happen overnight and I have to keep reminding myself of that.
But I also aware that I frustrate myself and others with my imperfections/ lack of progress, so I’m taking a BR break.
Mary
Why aren’t you telling her what you’re telling everyone else- I’m sorry, but you need to be direct and stop discussing with others, as it is becoming gossipy . It’s time to drop the PA behavior and be direct, as you’re not doing either of you any favors.
Fair enough Allison. I only discussed with 2 people at work when at my end of my tether, but yes, it’s gossipy and I hate gossip. I will talk to her a bit more directly today and explain.
It’s not in my nature to turn someone away when they ask for help but I need to woman up (especially since I’m not actually able to help her beyond what I’ve already done).
Mary W, this is a perfect situation to practice saying a compassionate “no” and setting healthy boundaries, which is for her good as well as your own. You actually aren’t doing her any favors by indulging behavior (hers) that causes you to resent her and disrespect yourself. Sometimes the desire to “not turn people away,” which is certainly well-intentioned, just results in the needy person sinking deeper into their own emotional quagmire because there isn’t a strong person there saying enough is enough. The ball is in your court and the responsibility is yours. There’s no excuse for you allowing her to come into your office and sit there talking when it’s not appropriate and interfering with your work – and your response is to be rude or ignore her? How is that better than saying “I’m just about to make a phone call. Let’s talk later, this isn’t a good time for me now – can I call you at home at 7 p.m. tonight?”
This response shows that you repect her and yourself. And that’s what she needs from you, a model of self-respect and empowerment. Letting her walk all over you is only going to delay the discipline she’s going to need in dealing with her own problems.
Thank you for replying, Wiser.
I feel truly ashamed that I ignored her and was rude. I was at the end of my tether and desperately in need of some headspace of my own.
Yes, I should have said “please do you mind coming back later” or “I’ll pop into your office later” but I’d reached breaking point.
I need to learn to speak up sooner, before I get to the point where I’m snappy and in default PA mode.
As you say, a perfect opportunity to practice compassionate and respectful “no”s, until that becomes my default..
The person in question has already been asked to stop ‘disturbing’ another group at work and that wasn’t handled very well IMO – the person making the complaint went directly to senior management. So I worry that she feels she has no one to talk to, but it’s about talking at appropriate times.
MaryW, you don’t have to be ashamed. You’re human, you may not have handled this situation the way you wanted, but please don’t get down on yourself.
You have been working hard on yourself, and I hope you’re proud of yourself.
I agree with Allison and Wiser; I think they gave you some good advice.
It just takes practice, courage and time, commitment, and…, but your’re growing MaryW, and you are an inspiration to us all about how to be truly honest and acknowledge our individual behavior patterns; how to do the work, and get the right type of help when you need it, and grow, and eventually change–and dang it, that’s NOT easy, but your’re doin’ the dang thang.
I’ve always found you to be so brave every time you show up and share on BR.
Remember, progress NOT perfection, one day at a time, and ALWAYS show yourself compassion.
Hang in there! You’re doing great!!! 🙂
no. No. NO. no. NO, ah, heck no!
and my personal favorite, ” Ohhhhhhhhhh, heeeeellll no!”
Grrreat post Natalie! :o)
I gave up coffee over a year ago, maybe close to two years, but yesterday, my friend asked me if I wanted to try some pumpkin spice coffee, and it sounded good to me, as I’ve been working really hard on an important project. I wanted to sit there and sip pumpkin spice coffee and work because I thought it would make me feel better.
I’ve really missed coffee; it is so comforting and snug-lee and it makes me feel good and safe and calm and alert, so I broke NC with coffee, and I had a few sips, and it was good, and it was what I wanted.
Then I decided I was strong enough to handle the coffee again because I’ve been on BR for years, and I’ve been working on myself for years, and I’ve improved, and I’ve learned, and surely I won’t respond to coffee as I did in the past.
I want the coffee you see.
Yes, I’ve been under a great deal of stress, and I’m tired of not being able to drink coffee. I miss having a cup of coffee. I want some coffee to lean on, to turn to, to give all of this stuff, I have to do to, to sip about it. It’s my choice.
I want the coffee.
So, I went to the local coffee shop, and I bought a large cup of pumpkin spice coffee, and it was grand.
It was delicious. I drank it, as I worked hard, and I felt comforted, safe, and calm.
But then, I began to feel anxious, and irritable, on-edge, and then just God-awful. I hissed at people, and I wasn’t myself, and the worse part of it is was the self-awareness of what was happening: I could feel how horrible I felt, as I have never felt before…after drinking coffee.
I won’t drink anymore coffee.
Sure it smells good; I miss it; I think my life would be easier if I could sit around and sip it when I want, but the reality is the coffee isn’t good for me.
I still want something nice to sip on when I’m working, but I won’t be sipping on ‘things’ that aren’t good for me. It’s my choice.
NC–NO contact.
Mary,
This is between you and her. No one else. I think it’s all in presentation, and it will also be helpful in her knowing how consuming it is. You must be honest with your friend.
Mary, you’re not going to like this, but, I think you are making too much out of this dude. Drama making! You simply keep your distance. Why are you getting yourself so worked up over this situation. It can be handled by being with others, and staying away.
Allison,
I’m getting worked up because I clearly have problems with boundaries and saying no. As well as with Florencing. I wrote about this here not because I want to create a big drama, but because I’m trying to work through my issues and this seemed pertinent to Nat’s post.
Tinkerbell,
I’m not sure I’m following your response? We were 65 days no contact and we broke no contact 14 days ago. I’m really struggling and I completely understand what no contact means. Please re-read my original comment. I need advice, not criticism. Thanks!
I gave a “soft no” to a pregnant lady who was struggling to control her toddler, and it felt good because I managed to show care and respect for the both of us, and still, I put myself first in a situation.
I gave a “hard no” to a competitor, who was trying to squash me. Yep, felt great!
I compromised with a loved one, and found agreement, as to what I would do and what my limits were–felt mutually beneficial, so I liked it a lot.
I gave myself a “soft no,” and I felt good about myself because I was being nice and loving toward me, and it came so naturally to my surprise. I treated myself how I always wanted to be treated. I was there for ME! Yeah ME!!!
I gave myself a “hard no,” and now I’m feeling the feelings I don’t want to feel, so I decided to write this comment, and I’m going to do some detailed writing in my journal, and try to come to some type of resolution, and start working on this (my) issue.
I accepted a “soft no” from someone, and it felt good to respect their boundaries, and it felt good not be so bothered by “NO,” anymore.
I accepted a “hard no” from someone else, and I’m still working through the disappointment, but I feel good because I believe the person’s “hard no” was about them and not me. I respect them, and I’m medium-miffed at them at the same time, but I’m glad I didn’t spin out per pre-BR usual.
Natalie, this is only one of the gazillion gifts from you and BR I have received, and I THANK YOU for helping me.
It’s hard sometimes not to revert back, to fall off the wagon for this reason or that reason; for this want or that want, …need or …need, but I’ll be damned if I did all of this work on myself to end up back where I started–there will be no circular bullshit for me. I’m going up and over that hill to the ‘other side.’
Wendy- Respectfully, going only by your post, it doesn’t seem you need advice, just support to do what you probably know you need to do–go back to NC. He’s getting his milk for free–he gets you AND (not “or”) who ever else he has mutual attraction with.
Look, it really sounds to me as if he’s keeping you on the shelf while he checks out new toys. He doesn’t want to
Sorry, it’s really hard to get cursor to go where I want it to go by phone. Wendy, all I’m trying to say is it seems he’s not committed to you regardless of what he says his feel ings are while you’re committed to him regardless and this is resulting in his keeping you in the picture without himself being in the picture. If you’re ok with it, then go ahead with your shelf-sitting & waiting for him to make a decision
My problem is in saying “It’s OK.” When something gets to me and I respond “It’s OK” it makes me feel sick. It really isn’t OK, but what else can I say. They apologized and its too late to fix it. It makes me feel like I’ve caved. I don’t like making people feel bad. But I think it comes back to bite me because no one worries about letting me down or disappointing me. They know it will “be OK.”
Christie, your post brought up the memory of the last day I talked to the ex and I sat there listening to his worthless apologies, saying woodenly, “It’s ok” in an attempt to take the high road. I thought it showed that I was a woman of grace and dignity who was “above” anger and upset. Big mistake. I remember feeling sick too, because I knew I had just disrespected myself. It’s fine if something really is “ok” and doesn’t bother you, but when the stomach is churning… isn’t it interesting how none of us like to make other people feel bad but we have no problem in making ourselves feel bad!
That’s a great insight you had, that by constantly doing the “it’s ok” thing, we teach others how to treat us. I know the ex had no problem disappointing me and letting me down because he saw me as a “saint” who wouldn’t really be bothered by bad behavior. And where did he get that impression?? From me! Bingo.
You can say “This is NOT ok with me.” Or, you can say, “I need to process this. This is not ok with me,” or just try “I need to process this.”
Then you can give yourself some time to process it, and then talk to the person about it. Or, maybe you want to go ahead and talk about it, and tell them how you really feel…enforce your boundaries and limits.
You don’t have to be mean to people; you can use tact, but you don’t have to put other people’s feelings before your own, especially when someone is mistreating you, nor is it wise or beneficial to YOU to do so, as you seem to already recognize as true.
I stopped putting other people’s feelings before my own, and I stopped trying to take responsibility for their feelings, and actions…their consequences….
Just take it one step at a time, you’ll be fine.
If I step on your foot, every time I pass your desk, but each time I pass, I say, “I’m sorry,” and you keep saying “It’s ok,” does that make you a high-road-Saint or a person who’s foot is going to keep getting stepped on? I dunno about you, but my feet are human.
Great analogy! Bring to mind a quote by Dorothy Day I’ve always liked: “Don’t call me a saint – I don’t want to be dismissed that easily.” Doing the pious saint thing does sometimes make it easy for others to dismiss us and our feelings, and I know from experience that it also makes it way too easy to dismiss myself!
These posts have clarified something important for me: saying “It’s ok” as a way to avoid unpleasantness while appearing to take the high road of grace and dignity, trying to be nice, not hurting others, etc. is in reality a form of hurting myself. The goal for me now is learning how to say “It’s NOT ok” as a form of self-care, and doing so WITH grace and dignity.
As usual, Wiser, you live up to your name. Actually, I think you should just call yourself “Wise.” 😉
Rev,
We’re all trying to get there – to be wiser. We have to grow into it. It comes with age and experience, assuming we’re learning from our mistakes and is quite an achievement the better we get at it. She chose the right name “Wis-er”, realizing that she wasn’t always where she is now. And has done a fine job, I might add.
Good luck to you Wiser! You sound like an exemplary person who I’m thinking will ‘do’ just fine. 🙂
Mary W,
I understand your issues with boundaries- still have lapses myself – my problem was with the gossiping .
I was trying to point out that you need not offer more than a hello/goodby to this clown . You don’t owe him anything. Please don’t worry about a situation that does not need to exist.
Allison, I’m confused about who you’re referring to – upset woman at work, or creepy man at conference.
Either way, I know I need to avoid the latter. The “gossip” was with 2 colleagues and my boss. One colleague is also coming to conf and I told her so she has my back. I won’t spread rumours about him at the conference or anywhere else. I know that’s wrong. My demeanour with him will be strictly polite and professional and I’ll turn down any offers of a dance or a drink. Yes in my mind he became a big scary wolf and it ‘felt’ dramatic and scary, but I’m reminded that I’m a big grown woman who can say “no”.
The other situ at work: I helped my friend/ colleague apply for a new job yesterday to something she’ll find much more stimulating. If she gets it, problem solved on many levels but in the mean time I’ve had an excellent opportunity here to go over how I could’ve handled things better.
Hey, Mary,
The gossip applied to your friend, as I don’t believe we should ever gossip about our friends. Deal with them directly.
The second point was about the married dude. So many times – I do it myself – we put so much anxiety into a situation before it happens, then turns out to be nothing. I was applying in your case, as this is not a boss, colleague or anyone who can hurt you – I know he’s in the same small industry. A simple acknowledgement, and then not allowing any alone time, will prevent any problems. Please don’t put unnecessary energy into this situation and make yourself crazy.
Good for you, for helping her find a position. When you do speak, I hope she will understand where your words are coming from, and will be able to resolve her problems.
Good luck!
I’m giving a “hard no” to the anxiety attack I am having right now. I woke me up, and I’m tired of these anxiety attacks waking me up. My mind starts spinning with thoughts in the middle of the night, and it’s as if someone threw a bucket of problems on me to wake me up, and then they fire a starter gun, and tell me to solve them immediately. I used to think these were useful like I could resolve everything, and avoid problems (my mind was working things out for me), but now it just seems like a big giant worry fish chasing me around in my sleep. I was told to ride through these attacks to let them pass, so my brain and body will learn there isn’t any real danger. Well, I decided to tell my brain and body to stop it. I don’t need these attacks; I don’t want them; they are counter productive; I’m sick of them terrorizing me out of my sleep; I won’t entertain them anymore. No. NO! and breathe!
Sally
I really like your user name. It’s funny but I feel for you. I recommend a repetitive, slightly demanding activity that’s also soothing. Embroidery or knitting. there’s a reason that these are women’s crafts!
Also, quite hard cardio exercise before 7pm for less than half an hour, and a good diet.
JustHer,
When you give yourself a hard no and make a decision to go forward with your life, like you just did, it feels like going through the break up again. What you do you break up with your hopes and with the drama and it is good to realise it is a period of withdrawal. It’s painful and, as someone said in earlier comment there is no other way than through. Please, take heart and have faith, it’s not a permanent pain and you will get through this desperation. Your post describes how I felt and I’m ok now feeling better about myself and stronger than I ever did. It will happen for you. Stick with BR, get some counselling, know that we are here for you. I recently got a phone call from the AC that brought me here after nearly three years post break up, and a year since he stopped sending me reset crumb attempt texts. I answered the phone because I didn’t recognise his number, and had to ask who I was speaking to because I didn’t recognise his voice either ( which I think hurt his ego hehe). Then put the phone down and ignored further frantic calls and texts. Could block him on off chance he will bother me again but really…. I don’t give a rats a..e. and I used to feel like I wouldn’t be abe to breathe without this man. Time heals, BR heals even better. Sending you a hug x
Sushi,
Thank you!
I guess I didn’t realise that actually starting NC properly rather than continuing with minimal effort would make me go through the pain again.
This time there really is no way he can contact me, but a part of me stupidly hopes that he’ll try – through a friend, by turning up on my doorstep (unlikely as I have moved). I thought it would be fine, but it is really like restarting again.
and wow! I had that moment when my ex took to calling from a new number – didn’t recognise his voice! But I think he took that as a challenge to try harder, until he got himself this new girl.
It just hurts that he’s having the time of his life while everything in mine has fallen apart so much that I don’t know where to begin to fix it.
I hope time does heal and it will all get better too 🙂
Im stuck on this one. Im saying now, then some days I say nothing cause the other person, my husband I am leaving wont get the hint. Ive told him numerous times that he needs to move out in the last month. then the next day he acts as nothing has happened. i dont know how to get him out of my house!! I say what I mean and I stick to my guns with no sex and keeping my sights on life ahead without him but he will NOT leave. apparently he thinks what I am saying is something else.
Have you filed for divorce? Do you live in a community property state? I asked because you said, “… MY house.” Is it really your house? I would talk to a family law attorney, and see what your legal options are before you…. You didn’t say ex-husband, and you didn’t go into much detail, so….
Good luck to you!
I’ve only just recently learned to say no. I was one of those easily bullied into doing what others wanted, but no more. I’m a hard no-er all the way now, mostly. Sometimes a soft no-er 🙂
Good for YOU! 🙂
I agree! Sometimes its very hard to say no but it will only be harder if the person you are saying no to sees that there still is a chance that you will say yes. He will take that safe no to convince you to say yes, that is why one should be firm in your decision.
JustHer,
What proof do you actually have that he is having a time of his life?
Those AC guys are made up of one mass of ego with , pardon me, a willy pointing the way.
They use women to inflate that ego. Hence the flurry of crumb ‘effort” like a text or phone call when they realise you are not going to blow the smoke bum anymore. You left the party so he found himself another victim. When this victim wisens up and leaves the party you might get another crumb as he would take the easy route and check if you a up for some more jerking around before he makes a little effort to find victim no 3. And so on. If they show up at your door it’s not them making super extra effort because they love you so much ( they just realised). It’s usually because they are disturbed people.
They are not having a time of their life, it’s an existence we really would not want. You are sorting out your shit and you’ll be fine. Just realise please that he is garbage. Chin up.
Sushi,
Apart from the fact that he has told me, I have stalked his facebook (girls, girls, party, girls, football, girls). This guy also got promoted much faster than me, while I lost my job.
I honestly think it will take too much effort on his part to do anything but send me crappy emails and texts, which he will no longer be able to do anyway.
I’ve been sorting out everything for over a year! And in that time, he’s been promoted, got with many many girls (women is not the word), started a successful business on the side, published articles in several magazines, joined the local football team, bought his own place.
Me: lost job, lost money, lost friends, lost any potential of finding another guy and lost motivation to do anything with my life.
It’s a hopeless case, you see.
” Me: lost job, lost money, lost friends, lost any potential of finding another guy and lost motivation to do anything with my life.”
Just Her – why is your conclusion that things will always remain as they are? Lost potential of finding another guy? I really am not understanding that conclusion.
Did you know that one of the sharks on “Shark Tank” got fired from a 9-to-5 and that is what motivated him to find new ways to produce income?
You have to realize that what you “think” is what you “are”. I always “thought” that good relationships are for “other” people…and here I am at BR.
I was uninvolved with any man for 5 years before I re-initiated things with a MMAC from my past. Recently, a new acquaintance who is a mental counselor said I went back to “Familiar Pain”. That’s the term they use in their counseling sessions. They have clients who return to drug use, break laws in order to be sent back to prison….it’s familiar pain.
We gotta break that cycle of returning to familiar pain. The AC was not your last chance saloon. We have to learn to embrace change. Welcome the change.
Elgie,
I think it’s a drastic conclusion, but one which is seeming likely right now, even though a part of me DOES say that I’m being too unforgiving towards myself and there will be something better for me out there. But there are so many women who are ALL looking for something better out there.. What makes me different or have any chance of success against them?
I really like and understand the Familiar Pain concept and it is one I have noticed in myself when I say “I would rather hurt than feel nothing at all”.
The change not only came with him, but the rest of the house of falling cards too. It does give me the ability to start everything from scratch though!
I’m just in the depths of despair at times and it seems like nothing will ever get better, even though I want it to.
I guess I need to be less feeble about it and go out and change things myself rather than waiting for change to happen.
JustHer,
It’s not a hopeless case, it’s not. I understand that it seems right now that everything is falling apart around you and it’s hard to find motivation. You made the first step by cutting out a way for him to continue messing with your life and most importantly also for you to do it too. You found motivation for that, huge step.
I did my own share of stalking the ex and it is soul destroying. You hurt your self confidence by comparing your life to his. We all go through bad patches, but it doesn’t mean that things will stay the same. You see, he is still the scumbag, with a job, property and a social life of his choice ( harem) and what he is doing is he is focusing on himself and putting his energy into a life he is choosing to live. You put your energy into stalking him and at the moment your energy is still there in his life. I was there too , believe me I feel your pain. Please believe me, that if you try , one hour at the time to focus on you with the belief that this one hour is a step up to lift you out and up , tell yourself out loud if you have to , it will happen. One hour of looking for a job with conviction, one hour of looking after your body, one hour to go through your address book and calling an old friend or acquaintance, one hour for searching for a meetup you like the sound of and making plans to go there. Don’t look at your whole life as a total sum of disasters. It’s a low time and you will change it. There is a book on changing your thought pattern by changing your beliefs, I will look it up and send you a link. I am rooting for you and people on BR will support you. Honestly, it’s only up from here. X
“If you try , one hour at the time to focus on you with the belief that this one hour is a step up to lift you out and up , tell yourself out loud if you have to , it will happen. One hour of looking for a job with conviction, one hour of looking after your body, one hour to go through your address book and calling an old friend or acquaintance, one hour for searching for a meetup you like the sound of and making plans to go there. Don’t look at your whole life as a total sum of disasters. It’s a low time and you will change it. “–Good stuff!
Sushi, you’ve been an absolute treasure. Thank you. This is the kind of support I’ve never had in real life and it saves me a little each day when I get it from BR.
As you know, financially I cannot afford much, but I have just signed up for the local library (been living in this area for 3 years!) and reserved that book!
I just realised that he would never want me back or love me like I had hoped he would, and I was just done hurting. So he had to go.
I want today to be the first day of the rest of my life and have started working on me. I’ll get that book later in the evening, but right now, I am focusing on my physical health – I am eating more than one meal a day again, even though the portions are small.
I loved your “one hour is all it takes” advice. You’re so right. I did not consider that before and was trying to take a giant step away from how I have been feeling for what feels like most of my life, but what I really need is to take baby steps, focusing on one hour at a time. I have submitted another application today and hopefully it will be good news.
I’m trying so hard to keep fighting.
JustHer,
The book is called mind over mood x