If like me you’ve ever had that uncomfortable realisation that someone has come to expect that you’ll be or do something that doesn’t work for you even though it works for them, it’s one of those sobering realisations that we teach people what to expect from us.
Us humans are remarkably predictable, even when we genuinely think that we’re not. You may know some people’s relationships better than they do because you’re more aware of their ‘cycle’ – you know that friend that swears “It feels different this time, I swear. It’s definitely over”. Again. We’re predictable.
It’s why I’ve often remarked to people who’ve struggled with their involvement in an unavailable relationship, that when you deal with someone who blows hot and cold, they become consistent at being inconsistent. If you pay attention to the overall pattern instead of only focusing on the hot bursts, which incidentally are probably only warm bursts because it’s coming off the back of a cold burst so feels warmer than it is, you’ll learn that when you feel the ‘hot’, you should expect ‘cold’ to follow and take this all as a sign to FLUSH. Even serial killers who try their damnedest to be random can’t help creating a pattern of some sort.
We’re all made up of habits. We deviate from time to time and of course go through periods of change when we become too uncomfortable with unhealthy habits of thinking and behaviour or we move in a different direction, but even then we change and evolve into new habits, hopefully ones that serve us better.
We teach people what to expect from us and sadly if we don’t have good boundaries, we can end up teaching them what they can get away with.
We ‘teach’ through the communication of our actions and words, including what we don’t do and what we leave unsaid. This is why people pleasing can be so destructive – it teaches people that we have no needs, wishes, and expectations and shows an inadvertent willingness to deviate from our values for their approval.
If you look at the relationships you struggle with like a series of habits, you’ll see a clear dynamic and a pattern of how each of you respond to certain cues (something that you perceive as a signal to think or do a certain thing) and triggers (an event or thing prompting that prompts you to respond in a typical manner).
When I sense or perceive conflict, I feel uncomfortable and my first response is to think of some sort of unpleasant outcome and go into avoidance mode, however, after years of getting out of my comfort zone, I now recognise that first typical response as my next cue to stop, look, listen, and deal. 99% of the time what I imagine isn’t the reality and it’s not worth the drama and silencing me for the 1% of time that it’s as expected or worse.
Over the years my relationships with certain family members have improved in the sense that they don’t have their old power over me. Why have they changed? Because I simply won’t participate – I no longer respond in the way that I used to. You want to dangle the threat of disapproval or even expulsion, or to criticise me, play games, draw me into drama or just expect me to play doormat, I’m not playing ball. My consistently different responses over an extended period of time means that I know and they know that the old cues and triggers don’t work.
It’s amazing how not seeking approval can clean up so many of your boundaries! If you also take your head out of the clouds and stop expecting people to change on each ‘chance’ you give, you’ll know what to expect from them instead of deluding you.
There’s been no announcement. I haven’t said anything using the word “boundaries” and I haven’t laid down the law about what people should and shouldn’t do – they can figure that out from what I do or don’t do, just in the same way that I’ve had to figure out others.
It’s the same with breaking up, especially if you have to cut contact – taking time out, taking care of you including addressing your boundaries and respecting them, communicates that this person can no longer expect the same responses from you to cues and triggers that have typically worked for them. You’re not doing it to manipulate him/her into giving you the relationship you want or to change; you’re taking care of you and being broken up. When you break, you break.
A reader told me how she’s still helping her ex with his resume, being a shoulder to lean on, networking on his behalf and other sorts of guff, all because she doesn’t want to be “mean”. Er, hold up a frickin’ second here! How can you expect to move on when you’re basically still being the lackey you were in the relationship? It’s not like he’s going to go “Thanks for all of that. Let’s get back together”!
If you continue to think and act in the same manner that contributed to you being in this dynamic in the first place, you’ll come up against the same issues. You can’t use the same habits that got you into problems to get out of those same problems.
Of course when you stop responding in the same way, this is where some folk equate feeling out of control with ‘desire’ or a signal to rise to a challenge and try new tricks in an attempt to get old responses, but if you remember why you’ve made the changes instead of thinking “Maybe they’ve changed and I can go back to being ‘old me’…”, you won’t get suckered in.
Change is for you first and foremost, not for ‘making’ others do what you want in a convoluted attempt to control the uncontrollable. Reteach people what to expect from you because you want to expect something different to what has typically brought about pain for you. When you teach you to expect that you’ll have your own back and that you’re not going to sell you down the river when given the first chance, you’ll teach others to expect that you’re to be treated with respect.
Your thoughts?
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Great post love it your speaking to me all the time!!
How freaky. I was engaged in a weird relationship with a married man because I found his aggressive nature to make me feel safe. He turned out to sell me short when a business transaction went awkward and not only did he take sides, but he used that hot temper AGAINST me.
How utterly ridiculous of me to think someone shady would somehow spontaneously become my “protector”. He only looks out for himself and the other party gives him the notoriety he seeks so badly.
Like you said in the last paragraph, I have my own back and dont need him. No more games, no more making him realise how wonderful I am, NC baby!!!
An ex I haven’t seen in a year decides to call me on Valentine’s day and then three days later and I ask myself why? I decided a long time ago that I wouldn’t ever see him again or start all the chit chat and enabling again. So after first of all feeling flattered, but also having been told that he is in an important and intimate relationship, I just thought what the hell is he calling me for..to pass time, maybe he is bored and its flattering to his ego that I may still be interested. I am not interested and I am going to teach him this by never ever seeing him again, texting him, emailing him or indeed picking up any more of his rinky dink calls. But what is it about guys that they think they can get back in contact years after and when they have been total idiots that’s two idiots in one week, valentine’s day must flush them out!
Hi Umi,
I had an ex text me “Happy Valentines Day. I love you.” He is the reappearing high school sweetheart/first love. He didn’t SHOW me he loved me for years, but still feels he has a reason to say it now. Back to me, why have I kept in some contact with him enough to have his number? Is he my fallback option? This is scary stuff when I realise how I’ve been EUM and called people up when I should have just let them be as well. But yes, I feel your frusteration! I have a lot of work to do, I have hung on and let others hang on and it’s pretty much a big mess.
LOL I’ve been an EUW not EUM. 😉
Hi NCC,
don’t hold onto the number of this iffy ex. When they are gone , they are gone. Should I pick up a call to my ex by chance, I am simply going to put the phone down and make myself a nice cup of tea and let him talk to thin air. I am not engaging with that man again. He has been a total waste of a heck of a lot of time!
Oh umi:
I hear you. 🙂 I had two ex’s pop-up out of no-where on Christmas. Ugh!
As much as I whine about being lonely and wanting to date again (I’m not going to until I feel ready), my strict “no-ex’s ever policy” saved me from replying back to them. They can both F* off. Too late, gentleman (if you can call them that *ahem*).
My self-esteem and confidence has gotten so much better post finding this blog. I have my moments of ‘agh, I’m 38 and will never find someone again. I need someone. Anyone!’ but overall I’m working on being happy without men and just me.
Anyway, my point is it happens to all of us. Stay strong and good for you for making and sticking with you decision.
The funniest thing is one of these guys said “Merry Christmas. I miss talking to you” via TXT!!!!! If ya missed talking to me so much would you not CALL??? Dumbass… The txt was immediately deleted.
Confused123, that just cracked me up.
“Merry Christmas. I miss talking to you” via TXT!!!!! If ya missed talking to me so much would you not CALL??? Dumbass… The txt was immediately deleted.” That is precisely teaching people what to expect from you.
Umi, if you block them, you’ll never know if they contact you. Otherwise, it’s simple. DELETE. AC’s just keep thumbing through their contacts seeing what poor FBG will respond, regardless of their relationship status and regardless of the time that has lapsed. It’s what AC’s do cos they are AC’s.
NCC, yup, I hung on for a while too. I was EUW and liked the intermittent attention from long ago ex’s. I thought it was a sign of how great I was. No. It was because I liked the ego stroking and the validation. I’ve cut the chord with everysingle one, including the married ones!
You are absolutely right, Runnergirl. This is exactly what they are doing. “AC’s just keep thumbing through their contacts seeing what poor FBG will respond, regardless of their relationship status and regardless of the time that has lapsed.” Shameless Morons. DELETE AND FLUSH permanently from my life.
Hi. I find applying new boundaries much more hectic when it comes to family and friends than when it comes to romantic involvements. What I mean by that is that they (family) accept them much harder than people I date.
I agree Ivana. I have been more assertive and boundary minded with family. I have gone very LC with my toxic mother. She seems to have accepted it but I know it will all blow up in my face soon, LOL!
I have had one major huge reaction from my sister in law when I stood my ground re arrangements. I was quite shocked, but I stated my case and would not be bullied into submission. I felt much better for it, I am not sorry I stood up to her.
I think you have to just do it Ivana and see how it all pans out.
Very timely post – I am on day 4 of NC with my EUM. He was always used to me being available to talk to about problems, etc, even after he told me that he “just needed time to find himself again”. Well, through various methods – I “found” him seeing at least two other people during this period of discovery for him. I have finally found the courage to say NO MORE.
This SO speaks to me in this period of my life. I’ve had numerous back-to-back wake-up calls about how I’ve taught others to not value me, my time, or my needs… all in the service of being “nice, good, helpful.” I’ve put a stop to some outrageous behaviors by refusing to engage with several of these miseducated folks, from family to business partners. A re-education process is underway, and I’m telling myself it’s not ‘selfish’ to have firm boundaries, even if they same unyielding to others.
Yes, indeed. And, some people require reteaching intermittently. What’s that all about. It says to me that they are actually resistant to your commanding respect and observing your values. These types are questionable at best as far as what their intentions toward you really are. Best to back off and let them be – without you.
wow i really needed to read this at this exact moment thanku so much;)
As always, I read your posts & feel stronger. This particular topic is SO relevant to me right now. Thanks Natalie.
This is precisely why I’ve continued NC in spit of the EUAC’s attempts to contact me in different ways. 15 days… woohoo! 🙂
Very well said!
Thank you Natalie, brilliant as usual:)
One day you finally knew
what you had to do,
and began,
though the voices around you kept shouting
their bad advice~~
though the whole house
began to tremble
and you felt the old tug
at your ankles.
“Mend my life!”
each voice cried.
But you didn’t stop.
You knew what you had to do,
though the wind pried
with its stiff fingers
at the very foundations,
though their melancholy
was terrible.
It was already late
enough, and a wild night,
and the road full of fallen
branches and stones.
But little by little,
as you left their voices behind,
the stars began to burn
through the sheets of clouds,
and there was a new voice
which you slowly
recognized as your own,
that kept you company
as you strode deeper and deeper
into the world.
~Mary Oliver~
I love this poem. Thank you so much for posting it, Seamstress.
Seamstress
That is beautiful.
That is where I am! Struggling to leave the “house” of my marriage.
This post hits me really hard. I was an expert at teaching my ex what to expect from me because I never took action. I talked but I never took action. So he for all the time we were married he basically ignored me. He got away with doing little because I just continued to complain and over-function to compensate. It was easy for him to do because he mind-dumped everything and spent lots of time in his fantasy world. So I would just emphasize one point in this post it is actions that really teach things, not words (at least for many people). If a relationship was respectful I think words would do it.
But more to the point, and this is what hits home, is I am STILL doing this. By being ‘stuck” in more contact than I want, by being afraid to make some really big decisions I am teaching him again that in some ways I can be depended upon to not move ahead. I am teaching him again that I talk a lot but don’t do much. But even worse I am convincing MYSELF of the same thing. My counsellor yesterday was telling me that I was sounding so hopeless and trapped…just as I always have been in this relationship even though I have said it has ended. I haven’t taken some really big steps and I am terrified of them. I am terrified to act- to really say good-bye to that old me because I do not know what will lie ahead. I don’t know if the new pain will be worse than the old. That is the truth of it. But I can see that when we do not act we not only teach others “what they can get away with” we also make ourselves weak and that turns back on us – my self-esteem is really low right now…and it is for this reason. Thank you – great post but difficult for me to read.
I was there too — I have had to learn the hard way that actions are what people listen to. (And also what I should hear.) I’m still struggling with this so today’s post especially hit home. Thank you for sharing your story, Espresso. And thank you, Natalie! Your site is wonderful.
Espresso,
Personally, I can say that growth and change is empowering!!!! I never want to return to the old me. It’s time for you to face your future!
Natalie, fabulous website. This is my first post. Huge THANK YOU for all of the good work you are doing.
“Because I simply won’t participate – I no longer respond in the way that I used to. You want to dangle the threat of disapproval or even expulsion, or to criticise me, play games, draw me into drama or just expect me to play doormat, I’m not playing ball.”
Natalie and others: How do you do this with family members if you still want to go to the get-togethers to interact with the positive people? What does “not playing ball” look like? Are you referring to speaking up when criticized, or not attending, or…..?
I especially don’t know how to deal with shunning/ignoring/indifference. I sit there feeling emotionally assaulted when some family members walk away from me, avoid me, do not ask me anything, do not call when they are in the area, etc. So what they are doing is essentially “nothing” and fake politeness – I don’t know how to deal with this.
If I choose not to participate, I give up some happy times with other family members.
Moving on, I have learned that in addition to teaching people how to treat me, I need to treat other people the way I want to be treated. So with difficult family member, I simply say hi to them when I arrive and spend time talking to the family members who I get along with. My younger sister hated me, but I still said hi to her instead of ignoring her. I wasn’t going to stoop to her level.But at the same time I didn’t go out of my way to talk to her either. I wasn’t going to put myself in the position to be mistreated by her. I have found if i am polite and cordial to the difficult ones, they are also, and if, not,it was their problem not mine. If they get nasty, I find it best not to take the bait, smile, and walk away.
This is something that I’ve struggled with myself. Check out this video from Oprah’s life class. It’s a great discussion on why one should not tolerate toxic behavior, whether it be from friends or family.
http://www.oprah.com/oprahs-lifeclass/How-to-Give-and-Receive-Positive-Karma-Video
This is timely for me, too. I am constantly finding myself in these types of situations. Being accomodating and available and non-argumentative and/or a person of inaction just screams doormat to these people. I find that every interaction with the new guy is an opportunity to show who I am, that I am confident in what I do and don’t tolerate, and that I like and respect me. The results so far have been that I won’t walk away from this feeling inauthentic, no matter what happens between us, and that feels good. Because there were so many times after some nonsense ended with a Mr. Unavailable that I sat thinking, “Why didn’t I say or do X when he said or did X?” I hate that feeling the most, that I didn’t stand up for myself when it counted!!
I’ve had that feeling too! It’s like I have a delayed reaction. I have learned to have a “script” handy because I think when I feel hurt or blindsided, I become confused and don’t respond the way I would like. I’m getting better at this but definitely not where I want to be. In time, right? Thanks, Astrid. 🙂
Astrid I felt just the same after I went NC with the ex narc. Even when we were still seeing each other I would think “why on earth didn’t I say x or ask y when he said z.” But it seemed too late to ask after the event, almost like the moment was lost. Maybe I really just didn’t want to hear the answers and that is why I left him unchallenged. I am reminded of that saying “The past is another country, they do things differently there.” We BR ladies are learning and growing and the best we can do for ourselves is to forgive ourselves for our perceived past inadequacies and have resolve that we will be far more kickass in future.
Our exes will be busy not learning, not growing, and basicaly pulling the same lame old boring shit on their next victim. I may have made mistakes but I know who I would rather be.
I agree, at least we went into things with sincerity and hope while these “men” expend all of their energy trying to suck ours away. Sickening, really. The last Mr. Unavailable pulled the vanishing act on me. That never gets easier to deal with, but I absolutely refused to contact them, ask what was going on, or give them ANY indication that his actions affected me, even though I may be privately hurt and seething. It’s really the only thing I can do for myself in that type of situation. And as Natalie says, never give anyone a second chance to reject you. By being more authentic, I can now sniff out the types who would pull such a stunt earlier on.
Right on time just driving along and the Ac pulled on the side of me.He asked me to roll the window down and I didn’t and just now he called,I didn’t answer he has been doing his 5 am or 6am Morn text also.Seeing him today I felt instantly sad I felt my face looking like someone had died and thats what I felt.
I did everything he asked even when he step on me because I didn’t want to seem like him and thought in his time of need when he came to me and I was there for him one day he’ll see and change.
Its been at least 12 yrs off and on can’t even say I was in a relstionship.I learned the hard way but plan to change myself and move on.
I haven’t even read this yet and I already know its going to be good
Thank you for this post and the other one on the 15th! I am in the process of setting up new boundaries at work and each time I do so it gets easier and easier. I feel more and more like a weight is being lifted off my shoulders. I am a happier, more productive person at work and in my personal life. Change is inspirational!!
Great points and I concur– saying “no” or speaking up for yourself is a mind-blowing change that needs to happen. The first few times I worried about “hurting someone’s feelings” by telling the truth about how I felt were hard– but I felt so much better for standing up for myself.
I got a call before Christmas time by a flush-worthy guy who DUMPED ME IN A TEXT. When he heard me ask my daughter “do I know ~Stuart~,” he said, “oh, so you don’t even remember me now?” I just responded “yeah, I remember you; I just don’t want to talk to you” and then hung up on him.
I thought it would feel bad to do that, but instead, I felt tremendous pride and joy sweep over me like a warm blanket. It’s still a process, but the “nice girl syndrome” can be broken with a conscious effort to put YOUR needs first.
Sheila,
Good for you!!!
That gave me good laugh 🙂
Well said. Boundaries are inside jobs…
“You can’t use the same habits that got you into problems to get out of those same problems.”
Yep..even Einstein allready said it:
“We can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.”
Albert Einstein
Seamstress …what a GREAT poem. Speaks directly to my heart. Thank you for posting it.
This was written for me. 5 days into NC. Thanks for the great article!!
FLuuushhhh!!!
love this….
seem to be having the same issues over and over with my EUM …as soon as I think I have made headway and that he gets the issue and understands, and the other issues have had their turn in the cycle, then it is time to start back at issue #1 again and argue about it all over again. This BS has been going on for 6 years now.
It is time for me to stop what I am doing and do it differently.
The message he keeps sending is that we are room mates and he doesn’t want to spend time with me when he can but he would rather do his own thing.
It is time for me to stop “badgering” (is what he calls it ) him for quality time and to start doing my own thing and spending time with people who want to spend time with me and let the already huge chasm that is between us grow until there is nothing left.
Just cant survive on these crumbs anymore!
As usual, this is a great post Nat!
“There’s been no announcement. I haven’t said anything using the word “boundaries” and I haven’t laid down the law about what people should and shouldn’t do – they can figure that out from what I do or don’t do, just in the same way that I’ve had to figure out others.”
Love this! My mother used to say, “I can show you better than I can tell you.” I have been putting into practice the advice that you have given on your blog, and I am a much better person because of it. Once I see that people need re-teaching (I am a teacher by profession, so I have to do this with my young students), I let them know by my actions (more often that not, this involvies me distancing myself and eliminating them from my life) that their disrespectful behavior will not be tolerated. Being the people pleaser that I have been, it hasn’t always been easy…but you know what they say: “Practice makes perfect!”
Wow, this is such a great post. I could quote so may things that stand out to me but I would be quoting the whole article. Im at the point that I still have to remind ME sometimes what I will and will not accept. It needs to be about ME before it can be about them. I respect me first ….then they have two choices…respect me or get lost. It’s not rejection of me if they get lost, it’s them realizing I am not a door mat pushover. It’s actually them respecting me. If they didn’t respect it they would try and convince me my boundaries were wrong or too harsh or they would guilt me into accepting the disrespect. I have been disappointed by some not changing for me, I admit it, but that was me trying to live a fantasy of who I wish they were. It still comes down to me first, the rest comes without so much trying if I keep that in focus.
Quoting myself;
“It still comes down to me first, the rest comes without so much trying if I keep that in focus.”
okay, in theory. I’m still in the trying really hard stage. It does get tiring, like Peanut said in the last post, but what choice do we have? Go back to misery? NO f&cking way. Working hard on my own happiness is worth it. Okay, nuff said or I’ll get all sappy.
My ex thinks we can be “friends” and go to a basketball game or grab beers or something… He always ends texts with… All the while he is “kinda seeing someone”. Little does he know, we will not be grabbing a beer or going to a game, or anything. Five weeks NC baby!!!! 🙂
That old chesnut lets be ‘friends’! These men are utter asses really. My ex called me on Velentine’s day asking the same things but also letting me know he was in an intimate and important relationship. Okay if that is the case why are you calling me so that you can prove you’re someone I lost ha ha. Who wants to be friends with a man who lies ad cheats his way through life and actually told me that I should text him first before calling him!! Like that was ever going to happen!!! I said well friendship would be great but usually I call my friends when I feel the need, its an open thing where we share things somehow I think his idea of friendship meant he could call me whenever and talk things off his chest and I somehow would be grateful to listen. Is Florence my midde name, no it isn’t! Friendship these loosers just use the word to mean ‘keeping you on hold in case my plan A fails and my ego or dick needs a stroke’!
Congrats!!!!
Astrid. You CAN teach the new guy how you expect to be treated. You’ve begun showing him that you are to be respected above anything else. It does not have to be a mad raging love affair, but RESPECT, honesty and decency are key. You want someone whose word means something – dependability, truth, sincerity. Having these qualities in YOU will help you to attract someone worthy. I’m glad you’re not being the doormat afraid to speak up and stand your ground like you did with the EUM. Keep it up. Just remember one thing: Now that you have your newfound strength in your values, you don’t have to beat him over the head with it either. Be strong and steady but temper it with moderation and forethought before action. Good luck.
Great post for me too. Was friends with my ex and after 6 months it turned into sex and when it did, I said either we move forward or nothing, because i can;t be just friends (basically i was fooling myself, but now the cat was out of the bag) This was on new years day. Now he keeps emailing, was phoning wondering what he did wrong, even though I told him I can;t be friends (he told me he wasn;t ready for more…gave some lame excuse) anyways, it’s been hard not contacting, it’s sad to lose a friend, I really enjoyed being his friend (when that’s all I thought it was). But, it’s been 2 months and I haven’t seen him and I’m basically ignoring his emails. I guess i am teaching him that I can’t be with him, but I guess part of me is still thinking he will come around. Funny thing is he did this to me 2 years ago when we dated, only that time he was seperated and now he’s divorced, but just as EU!Last time we split he kept contacting me for 9 months and I finally responed, I’m afraid he’s going to try again. I told him i’ll be friends with him when I am in a relationship, he says, no, then I’ll never see you. I just don’t get it, he mentioned he didn’t have space in his head for a relationship, yet he says he wants a girlfriend. Makes me want to scream when I think about it. And this i call a friend?
Hi Chloe, perhaps i can try to interpret. You mention 2 things:
“…2 years ago when we dated, only that time he was seperated and now he’s divorced, but just as EU!”
The EU may be temporary due to divorce. I read that the time it takes to get out of EU is at least a month for every year of the marriage and double that if it was high conflict. The clock starts when the divorce is FINALIZED.
“…he didn’t have space in his head for a relationship, yet he says he wants a girlfriend”
He wants to f&ck and will tell you what you want to hear
EUM Roberto,
A month for every year! You sure do have some interesting sources….
But I do give you credit (um sort of) for your last statement because UNFORTUNATELY it is often true with emotionally unavailable men especially of the assclown variety.
Roberto, Thanks for your response, I may understand his reason for not being ready and he says he just wants friendship (but i am sure he would not turn down more) anyways, I’d be fooling myself because my feelings would grow and I would not be available for a man who is ready now. Unfortunately, I need to sacrifice the friendship, but that is the adult thing to do. Besides he obviously isn’t into me enough
Chloe
This is no friend! This guy is a user and game player! If he were your friend it would not matter if you were involved,unless that means cutting off his supply of sex. Creep!!
It’s time for you to block all forms of contact.
“Of course when you stop responding in the same way, this is where some folk equate feeling out of control with ‘desire’ or a signal to rise to a challenge and try new tricks in an attempt to get old responses, but if you remember why you’ve made the changes instead of thinking “Maybe they’ve changed and I can go back to being ‘old me’…”, you won’t get suckered in.”
Yes, Natalie, it helped me to remember *why* I went NC with the AC I found myself involved with at work because what began to happen was I began to feel like the tables were being turned on me. My way of NC was to ignore him and only deal with him when i had to because of work. But then it became obvious to me that he was deliberately ignoring me and I started getting mad. It began to feel like he had the upper hand. It helped to remind myself that i was not trying to play games with him, but that I was trying to protect myself from further pain and further involvement with him. Truth is though, I’m glad I no longer work with him because I don’t know how much longer I would have lasted. I was really starting to get ate up with resentment and was starting to want to make snide remarks to him. I felt indignant because what reason did he have to ignore me?!How dare him! He deceived ME, I didn’t lead him to believe i was something I wasn’t. HE DID. It was hard. But I’m glad I quit that job and I made my last day on a day he was off work so I didn’t have to deal with that and I posted a goodbye note on a dry erase board to all my co-workers but him! But he probably didn’t care,and even if he had, he had other members of his harem there to lick his wounds and boost his ego again.
Darn, thanks again Natalie for articulating this. I didn’t realize what I have been doing. I did realize that I’ve been implementing my boundaries and living by my values. It’s nice to understand that I’m teaching people what to expect from me now. It is painful to realize how I taught the exMM what to expect and that he could treat me like an option. Ouch! It was like dealing with a thief who kept explaining that he really didn’t mean to steal my pride, integrity, and morality. I kept accepting the explanation, hoping he would stop stealing, and he kept robbing me. At some point, I had to take some responsibility and teach me to say no. It has ended up to be a quiet moment. No grand announcement because there were many of those dramatic moments, being a woman of too many words. Finally, it ended up being action. I’ve carried the many BR/exMM lessons on and it’s been quite an eye-opener as to how vigilant I have to be in dealing with folks. Teaching me and others what to expect still takes conscious thought. It’s not automatic yet. Oddly, it’s like playing sports. I’m getting some muscle memory in implementing boundaries. Thank you Natalie and BR.
I have a question. I have been involved in a relationship with a MM for quite some time and am struggling with the chronic let-down. It is so destructive. The problem with just walking away is that without a definitive end there is always the possibility of another round. You know how that works. Just when you begin to feel stronger is just when they try to open the door again and of course since you feel stronger you think, what is the harm? I can handle it… And you teach them that they can keep playing the game. My question is, should I let his wife know the truth of what has been going on all this time? She knows some, but not all, and certainly not the length of our relationship. It’s not that I want to hurt her. It is just that if it were me, I would want to know. I have always struggled with that basic duplicity on his part, and with being complicit in it. Should reteaching someone what to expect from you include telling the truth and letting them feel the consequences of their behavior? Does just walking away with no consequence (other than to yourself) teach them that it is ok to continue behaving that way, if not with yourself then with others? Giving them the confidence to keep right on doing it, as they keep getting away with it? What is the point of taking the high road when it only enables them to keep taking the low road? Where is the line between revenge and vindication?
Chronic
You want him to suffer as much as you’re suffering. I think that is unlikely to happen and you have to accept that. His wife already knows what she needs to know, she doesn’t need more details. Your aim is to teach him you’re not that woman anymore. The cosmos or his wife may or may not teach him that cheating has consequences, but that’s not your job. You think it’s your job because you lost out on the job you really wanted (to be his wife).
“What is the point of taking the high road when it only enables them to keep taking the low road?” because its stops you from humiliating yourself and drives the point home (to you)that he doesn’t have to do the right thing for YOU to do the right thing.
It’s harsh but, honestly, his marriage is not your business and neither is his wife.The sooner you can wrap your head around that, the sooner you can move on to accepting that HE has nothing to do with you either. How he would treat you becomes irrelevant because you just won’t be there anymore for him to do anything to you.
No more MMs.
Grace I agree with you to some degree but don’t agree the wife knows what she needs to know. One of my close childhood friends had a 20 plus affair with a MM. She finally got the phone call from the wife. Of course the gig was up and her “soulmate” MM ran for the hills. My friend kept hanging up on the wife and blocked her number. We debated on this numerous times. I felt that the wife deserved to know the duration of the affair and that her husband bought my friend a house, bmw etc etc I thought my friend owed the wife at least the truth since she obviously wanted to know what was going on. Of course I hated him because I felt he robbed my friend of having children and a normal life for way too long. I saw her refusal to speak to the wife as her still being loyal to someone who didn’t deserve loyalty. I am not sure if it is none of your business. My friend just wanted to walk away and leave the pain and drama of the situation and I understand that as well. Of course the MM came back when the smoke cleared but thankfully my friend had already bounced back, met her future husband within 2 months, and held strong. She is now happily married. :)))) He still tries to contact her every now and then after 10 years apart but my friend refuses all contact.
beth
In that situation I would spill the beans as the wife is asking. The big problem is that no-one has written the Book of Cheating Etiquette. I would tell because I feel tough enough to handle it and I would expect nothing from it, not even an eased conscience. If someone seems very vulnerable or expecting it to make her feel better, the best thing to do may be to disappear quietly (and it seems in this case the wife already knows).
I agree Grace it doesn’t make you feel better and I also agree my one gf should have told since the wife really wanted to know in that case. Both of my friends who initiated telling the wives felt guilty and were shocked with how mad and vicious their ex MM got after they did it. One bad thing about telling is that the MM will never pine over you. He will hate you and get right over you so you lose that benefit of putting him in any kind of pain. Again most times the wives stay no matter what they are told so it’s no wonder the Book of Cheating Etiquette hasn’t addressed this.
beth d, This line really made me think, “I saw her refusal to speak to the wife as her still being loyal to someone who didn’t deserve loyalty.”
I think I still have a lot of cognitive dissonance because of doing this in similar and other ways. I’m still disappointed in myself that I was presented with opportunities to “teach him how to treat me” when he asked me to look the other way or accommodate bad behavior without any consequences. I did so out of some misplaced sense of loyalty and also I’m sure I was trying to keep the door from closing completely behind me. I think it was only after some time of NC and the fog lifting that I had detached from him enough to lose that sense of loyalty and complicity in his life. My brains were well and truly scrambled by him and the situation which may have been the case for your friend, too.
FX She for sure was loyal to him and of course as a MM he did treat her well financially. Most MM do spoil their “goomads” The guy truly had two wives and neither of them wanted for anything but it still amazes me how he got away with it for so long. It is interesting what you said about keeping the door open. I felt my friend was doing that too. She knew by having a conversation with that wife her MM would never forgive her and I know at the time she still loved him and wanted that door open. With that said I think she also didn’t want to hurt the wife furthur since she knew if that wife really knew the details she would be devastated and of course I had to respect that. My friend does get angry now when she thinks about the relationship. She was in it for so long she normalized a crazy situation but of course she now sees things she never acknowledged while she was with him. I am happy your fog lifted and the NC gave you clarity. It really is such a wonderful gift you give to yourself.
It’s true, they are like the shit on your shoe, very sticky. Also even a minor prescence, a tiny particle, in your life can stink it right up. But really the problem is yours, to scrape it right off. Don’t put that responsibility onto some other woman. It isn’t your job to punish or control him, and I doubt anything you or she could do would stop him anyway.
Chronic disappointment is right!
Chronic I had two friends who did tell the wife at the end. One of them even sent the wife all the proof. In both instances the wives stayed with MM and ignored the OW. Did they somehow pull their marriage together and go to counseling or something? Probably not and their hubs are most likely still cheating. Most times the wives stay as they are immune to their Narc/AC husbands and really have suspected all along. They have already lost their self esteem and then it becomes about winning the booby prize and not letting the OW have him. On the other hand I am going through one of my bff divorce right now. Her husband of 30 years has been a serial cheater and finally the bottom dropped out. The OW told her and she checked out her story and finally realizes she has been living with a malignant Narc. She always suspected he was off and she definitely suspected the cheating. She is finally happy to know for sure because she wants a chance at the happiness she will never get with her husband. She is glad the OW told her and she even found out about OOW. Personally I would want to know but there are tons of women who don’t want to know and will make you feel like the big hoe who tried to ruin their marriage. Tough call and don’t know if it will make you feel better or worse.
Chroniclyacute: Yes, this is a completely personal choice. I’ve read accounts of the cheated on wife who was livid that everyone knew but her, and if SOMEONE had told her, she could have walked away from a bad marriage so much sooner. Some say don’t do it, why dessimate the illusions the wife is under, it’s her learning curve/life lesson to find out in her own time. Also, are there children involved? I pulled the plug on the MM I was involved with (well, more accurately, made him do it under threat of sending on all his text messages to her), however I did take into consideration that the children involved were 20 and 17, the 20 year old his biological whom he left the mother before he was born, the 17 year old being his stepson who was already in trouble with the law due to an AC EUM biological father and I’m sure the unstable nature of the relationship between his mother and this Narc Assclown. If there were ‘children’ living with them that were their’s combined, I would have definitely reflected on the exposure.
As it is, I have no regrets as it did set in motion what I needed – NC on his part due to the demand by his wife and counsellor. I had my doubts about what I did afterwards, but I found BR and the more I read, the more I thought about it the more I realized that it was for the best for all involved. She got the playing field levelled (he was lying to her, and planning on ‘pretending’ his way out of the marriage to keep everything he could, and she had NO idea about his cheating nor his ‘plans’), I got rid of the cockroach so that I could heal and decipher what happened without him interfering with my head and continuing to manipulate me. And now, the more I look at him and what he did the less appealling he is and in fact I WANT him to call me if his marriage fails so that I can tell him to bark up a tree he hasn’t already pee’d on… But I digress, I think I was lucky that my particular situation warranted it and the outcome was favorable for all.
Regardless, I’m not sanctioning whether to expose him or not. It depends – if she knows a certain amount, that may indicate that she is accepting of the situation and exposure may backfire on you. I do see that the walking away is the high road, and don’t think that he’s really getting away with the low road, his life sucks, and everyone who gets involved with him in anyway will be affected negatively. However, like each of us, that’s for each of them to figure out right? Taking the high road isn’t ‘letting them’ get away with anything, it’s us detaching and not incurring any undue ‘karma’ and gets us string free faster on the path of healing. Revenge will carry guilt. Vindication will bring a better outcome for all, but pick wisely and consider who’s involved before deciding which it is. If in doubt just walk away and leave him to his karma.
Hmm, now I see Grace’s post, and I think she’s bang on. His marriage is nothing to do with us. He shouldn’t have been with us in the first place, so the ability to walk away with the attitude of ‘it never happened’ cause it wouldn’t have if one or the other was healthy. Walking away with head held high, singing a little ditty about life and learning…. 🙂 would be ideal
Jewells, I agree with you and Grace we should not be involved with married men in the first place. I never had a “relationship” with MM and I never will. Lets have some consideration to poor wives and kids!
Well the one good thing about telling is they really do leave you alone most times after you tell. My gf who didn’t tell heard from her ex MM for years even after she married someone else. She finally told him “would you like to speak to my husband” How would you like it if I had done that to you? That ended it but he is always asking about her and trying to infiltrate her life via other friends and family.
Chronicly
It seems like you´re in need of revenge more than anything else. Your whole train of thought – and I say this kindly – sounds like a rationalization to make revenge (which really it is, if you want to tell his wife about it) seem like something else, something not based on emotion but on reason.
But you see, it´s not your job to send out punishment to this moron. For one, because you don´t know the consequences of what you´re planning to do – what if his wife decides not to believe you, and then blames you for making things up and stalking or whatever? Or what if this causes a crisis that leads them to go to councelling and renew their vows?
How would that be a punishment to him? You´d only be punishing yourself, getting more and more tangled up in this mess.
Secondly, I believe when someone has misbehaved there will be some consequence – punishment if you like, but it won´t be in the way you´d like it to be. Someday he may realise he´s become bald and ugly. Or he may loose all his money and become impotent. Whatever. But that will be his problem and it will hurt him much more than any noise you´re planning to make.
The only revenge that works, is to make a daily and conscious effort not to let this asshole ruin your life. Not to take a step backwards, but UP. You´re much better than this situation you got yourself into, act like it. Tell yourself everyday: MM will NOT ruin my life, MM will NOT ruin my life. Your life is precious because it´s yours and MM and his wife have no business making you miserable, even if it´s only in your mind.
As for him, if he comes to approach you again, the whip of indifference is more damaging than any scandal you can make up.
Chroniclyaccute, rather than teaching the wife about yourself and your values, have you considered teaching the MM about yourself and your values instead?
dear chronic,
I read your post and have no answers for you but I can speak from my own experience. Many many years ago, I had a EUM that I had a feeling was cheating on me, he was a drinker, worked late, and could never really put my finger on it because he was good. He spun me around with his stories, so that I didn’t know which end was up. I had two small children, 4, 2 and pregnant with the third, when I got a phone call, as he was walking in the door bringing in the groceries. It was the cousin of his girlfriend of about two years. I divorced the B***, because it became a lightbulb moment that he was with her during both pregnancies. I went to counseling, he went to one session, and once my son was born we separated, and that was the end of that. I was so grateful for that phone call. It is now 30 years later, my kids are grown and have their own. He is still cheating, has several women at a time, and he never remarried. He continues to be a EUM. My kids have no respect for him, he never had a relationship with any of them. Moral of the story: Kick him to the curb! And take care of yourself.
Chronicallyacute:
If you stop seeing the MM and you tell the wife you are, basically, trading one source of drama for another. Yeah, you feel guilty. The fact of the matter is that you should feel guilty. I don’t say that to be cruel; just factual. Telling the wife is not going to change what you did or how you feel about it.
Overall, I have a rather practical take on monogamy – I don’t always think extra marital affairs or flings are the end of the earth. But, I suspect I’m in the minority with that opinion. Having said that I would never have an affair because I wouldn’t want to bring pain to another person. Coming back to your question: my practical perspective is what good can come of you (the OW) telling the wife? I think the husband should tell his wife – but we can’t control what the husband does or does not do and, at the end of the day, it is a matter for him and his wife to resolve.
Bow out gracefully and keep your side of the street clean.
Chronicallyacute
The point of taking the high road is because that is who you are. Yep, he will continue taking the low road because that is who he is. You cannot correct his behavior; aint your job. Nothing you can do about that. Do not tell the wife, though you would want to know, you are not her. Unless she is totally clueless, she has some idea all is not well and its HER job to decide what to do. Bail sister bail!!
Chronic. Just get out of the relationship! No overthinking about how to get revenge. Telling his wife only brings you down to his level. Leave with some dignity and honor. You have not had much in that you’ve been with a MM for a significant length of time, but, that doesn’t mean you have to go on like that. Give yourself the love and respect that you want from someone else. The MM is the LAST PERSON you will get that from. I’m speaking as someone who has been there done that, but, I had a tad of self-esteem left to not stay with him longer than 6 month. Grow a backbone and make him DEAD TO YOU. There is no future in what you are doing. I repeat. NO FUTURE.
Flush him , go NC and don’t ever, ever, ever go back.
And, it’s not your problem to try to teach him a lesson. Why? Do you honestly think it will make him a better person? It ain’t happenin’. Focus on YOU being a better person, not his sorry ass!
And from my experience, the desire for revenge comes from the moments of anger as each piece of how we were duped comes to the surface. I STILL have moments of arghhhh when I remember a moment of what should have been a glaring red flag and I just carried on as if it was all okey dokey!!! It’s like being mad at ourselves for what we allowed, but having another target to aim the emotion at in attempt to alleviate the pain…but ultimately it does nothing about alleviating the pain, the pain must be experienced in it’s whole in order to get the message it’s trying to tell. I didn’t FEEL any better when I made him turn himself in, in fact he tried to rub it in that I ‘saved his marriage’. I don’t care either way anymore, all I know is that he is where he’s supposed to be and that I don’t have to deal with his crap anymore and that’s all that matters in the end. I am free to work on me and find someone worthy, cause now that I’ve had time to get an education and work on myself, I see how he was sooooo not worth it. And regardless of what happens on his side, I’m not a woman who would want him now.
Chronic
On reviewing this, I would say – we should tell if we can handle it but not expect any thanks from him or his wife. Expect him to sever all contact if we tell (which would be a good thing but we’d probably end up blaming ourselves for telling). Expect to be seen as a drama-seeking harpie. Expect his wife and any children to hate you. Expect to be mentioned publicly in any divorce papers. Expect him to avoid you if she divorces him.
Don’t expect gratitude, to feel better or for him to leave his wife for you.
The only reason to tell is because I think, yes, she does deserve to know. We can’t decide whether or not she can handle it.
The reason I said to YOU not to tell is because you say she already knows.
So Chronic, whatever you choose, for whatever reason, you must be prepared for the outcome to be what it is and not necessarily what you want it to be.
Also, if the wife already knows then we can be certain that she is living her marriage in denial and will only blame Chronic if she decides to tell her the details.
I broke NC. :(. I want my notebook back and I want to return his book. He was horrible! Basically, told me I had to wait and that me offering to post his book to a friend was a ‘threat’. I said I was just moving on, and that I thought it would suit both of us if I posted it. But, no. I’m a bad person. Queue moment of self-doubt but it’s fading.
And what annoys me is, if I’m so mad and unpleasant and threatening and violent and all the other rubbish things he has said about me, you’d think he’d be pleased that I was offering to post his book for him rather than him having to brave being in the same room as me. It costs £2.70 to send my notebook back for me. Annoying.
Shyner this is a pathetic excuse for contact and he will have seen right through it. A notebook! You could have binned his book. I had a book of the ex narcs and I just posted it to him. No drama. Stop kidding yourself, you are reaching out to him and you will just get more pain. Clearly you are an adult and this is your choice if you want to go another round with him. Have you read Nats posts on No Contact? It means NO CONTACT!!! I know it is hard, especially at first, but f you don’t stick to it you will never recover. In one of Nats posts she asks the question, “Are you intending to ever get over him?”
Here’s the thing. The book of his I have is valuable and was a present. I asked him if he wanted me to post it and he told me to leave his friends alone. His friend gave me his address. I am worried that if I send it, it won’t arrive or something and then he’ll go mental. He has said that he will be in touch when he is able to collect it. I honestly just want to move on but if this book doesn’t get into his hands, he’ll just go into one and I don’t want that to deal with, either. My notebook has my writing in it – I am an author. I know it sounds ridiculous. He is not playing ball at all and I don’t want to hear from him – I honestly don’t. I’ve been doing really well working on my self-worth. The two options I have are both annoying.
Oh, forget it. I just hate the way this has all gone so wrong. You’re right. I’m being an idiot. It feels like unfinished business and I am being impatient. I feel hurt. I feel like I haven’t been given the chance to tell my side of things and that seems very unfair. I can’t make him listen or care, though, I know that. It’s a big drop to feeling like you really matter to someone to being such a nobody. The doubts are back. I was doing good. I’m pissed off, now.
Ok Shyner, just get back on the NC wagon. I never got my shit back from ex narc. i would rather that than be caught in his web forever though. Who cares if his precious little book gets lost? So what if he goes mental? YOU WON’T KNOW. YOU ARE NEVER HAVING CONTACT WITH HIM EVER EVER AGAIN.
Isn’t that a liberating thought Shyner? He can go as ballistic as he likes and some other victim can deal with it. You are done here. Aren’t you? Wishing you strength. And Block his phone/email/everything. Do it now and don’t look back.
Shyner,
Even if you told your side, he wouldn’t see it, or he would debate it, and then tell you how you see it, it’s crazymaking! Best thing to do for your own sanity, is go back to NC.Don’t beat yourself up, about it, we all slip back. And sometimes we just have to get burnt one more time. The face of what your are saying is, he really never did care. That is the part that is usually the hardest to understand. They don’t think or feel like we do. Set your boundaries, don’t allow him to treat you that way or even begin to doubt yourself. You are a wonderful person and deserve a loving, caring, man.
@Shyner
This is EXACTLY the type of stuff the epiphany AC ended up doing to me, BULLYING me for his stuff (mind you they were gifts he had given to me, NOT “his”)! When I would get a nasty text with a new bullying BS request for something, I’d silently return it through a mutual friend and stuck to NO CONTACT. It’s all just a game to them, a form of control over the doormat. My saga ended when I’d had ENOUGH and filed an order against harrassment to stop this bullying narc P.O.S.
You don’t owe this jerk the ‘steam of your pee’ (love that saying, thanks Nat)…if the book were THAT special, he’d make it happen NOW…NOT when he’s good and ready! I’d shred it, burn it, or throw it in the trash, but if your conscience can’t live with that…why not send it certified? You’ll have the peace of mind knowing that he received it. STICK TO NO CONTACT!!!
“he will be in touch when he is able to collect it.” Translates to “when he needs a shag/ego stroke/shoulder to cry on/feels a bit bored.”
Well if you are NC he won’t be contacting you and you will have taken back CONTROL.
“he will go into one and that I don’t want to have to deal with.” Then don’t. Ditch his sorry ass and go your own way. You can choose freedom from this POS Shyner. You can tell him whatever you like but you will get nothing back from him as he has nothing to give you. Nothing except lies/duplicity/crumbs. You would be wasting your time and I am guessing you know you have wasted enough time on this creep.
I do know how hard it is to face up to having been duped/used/future faked etc. I couldn’t believe that the man who was so crazy about me one minute was so ambivalent the next. Believe me when I tell you it is him with the problem and it is one that neither you nor any other woman unfortunate enough to cross his path will ever fix.
He has managed to stay angry and unpleasant for a long time. I don’t want to hear from him again. I need to tread this new path and get my head together, feel good about myself. What is the big problem with spending £2.70 on returning something important to me. I agree, there’s no point attempting to appeal to his nice side, because it’s a bloody mirage , anyway. There’s no way he could have a conversation about me about our relationship because it would involve him having to recognise some stuff and maybe even apologise. I have now dropped that idea from my head. And I am pretty much dropping the notion that I’m ever going to get my book back. It’s a psychological thing, having his stuff here. I don’t really want there to be any trace of him. Sad, really. Unfinished, messy, unpleasant business isn’t something to aim for.
Shyner,
If the notes in your notebook were on a laptop that crashed, and you could only retrieve the data, not the laptop, would you would you pay $200 and upward (it just cost me almost $300) to a shady computer person to get the work back?
Your relationshit crashed and you’ve lost some data. It better be the first draft of War and Peace (right, runner?) to be worth dealing with this AC again to get it back.
As for his valuable stuff, surely it’s not as valuable as you are and you are under no obligation to treat his book, which is just a thing, better than he treated you. But if you are serious about just wanting to be rid of it, there are a million ways to put it somewhere where he can safely retrieve it when he’s ready and so that you can be well shot of all of this drama.
You’re right. I’m being an idiot about this. There’s a rejection issue here somewhere and I need to get over it. I just don’t want it dragging on any more. I have found it very hard to understand why he won’t talk to me, and how he no longer cares about me at all. If he ever really did, that is.
Shyner,
burn the book and move one. He’s out of your life. Why bother to gives him or his things a minute more thought? Unless of course you want to stay stuck.
I’m on at least three different job sites, …some career centers … trying to think, trying to get past the resistance…the call to go eat something sweet or watch a movie and relax…self-indulge much? I wish it was easier to step outside of my comfort zone, but damn, it never is!
…trying to figure out my career goals, so I can end my underemployment…strategies, objectives, steps…the clear need for goal setting, follow through, and daily commitment.
I know how to do it; I know I can do it; it just sucks because I thought that the job that I have now was the ‘right’ choice out of several offers–I had a gut feeling that turned out to be more about triggers and fantasies, patterns that were skewing my gut…misguided beliefs…, so here I sit, basically starting over again, trying to get it–NOT ‘right’, but just better…better to the point that I can say to myself, “ok, self, we stepped up for ME; we didn’t allow ‘them’ to bust our boundaries; we didn’t allow them to wreak havoc on my self-esteem…to define me…to limit me because I am capable of so much more, and I want so much more; I won’t be small for them, so they can be big…*pain in heart*…*frustration in mind* because there was a special type of hell in not being heard as a child, and I can see that pattern. Sheesh, I talk to them as I used to talk to my mother, begging them to listen to me, and they still don’t. I have put so much wasted energy in trying to get them to listen; I have been waiting for them to say “you are right,” show their appreciation, and ‘let’ me do what I think is appropriate in certain aspects of my job.
Now, I just feel like I got it twisted, like what the hell have I been begging for, waiting for…needing permission for…somebody ‘important’ told me I was ‘right’ the other day, and sadly–I felt validated–sadly because why did I need her to validate me–I don’t really need it, but I want it because fighting with them is so much easier than stepping up for me because stepping up for me and taking action for myself in certain situations is ‘hard’…it requires thought, actions outside of my comfort zone that I have convinced myself that I don’t want to do for various reasons that continually pop into my mind whenever I sit down to work on solving the problem. Okay, so I know this; I have a deeper level of self-awareness, but it is that damn stepping outside of the comfort zone that gets me every time. Or will it get me this time? Maybe not because the price of not standing up for ME…patterns (and I mean the biggest of the big demon patterns) be damned, I just can’t see myself turning back now.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
I don’t say NO to me anymore–so yes, I agree it is not about me saying, “You can take this job and shove it, I ain’t workin’ here no more,” or secretly wanting them to change and ask me to stay etc.,” it’s ME saying to ME “I’m really hurting, sad, frustrated, bored intellectually, distracted,…, come on Me please listen to me, do something…stand up for me, step up for me, take action for me, step outside of my comfort zone for me–be ME…progress, it’s time to move on for ME, and that thought gives me the positive thrust to do the work because within love for self all I feel is joy.
I am the queen of conflict with boundaries. Everything he does awful to me (which are too many to list here)is reinforced by my reaction/actions. Why? Because I’m so scared of losing him that I laugh at his dirty text messages, and I drive in at 10:00 at night, and allow him to totally dominate and manipulate. If I am true to myself, he will think he’s listening to a total stranger and ask “why the sudden change?” He doesn’t even know who I am…accept that I am what he wants me to be. How do I get back to me????
Nancy,
By going NC!
This guy is no good for you, and treats you like crap! This is who he is! Why would you want to stick around?
At work one of our colleagues has been seeing a MM once a month for almost 3 years. She’d love him to leave his wife of 33 years and commit to her (she is 56). He won’t leave his wife. She can’t cut things off because of her emotional and
sexual addiction to him. Plus he helps her financially. What bothers we workmates the most is he pays her car repair bills, her utilty bills, her etc bills to help her out. We’d love to tell his wife because the money he gives workmate should be going into his wife’s retirement savings, old age needs (they are in their 60’s). I don’t care that he having an affair with my workmate so much as he’s cheating on his wife FINANCIALLY. Those of us at work think his wife should know for her financial security and welfare, but we also feel it’s not our business to tell. Nothing is black and white.
Jewells is right , its because its not worked out , youre angry and you want to hurt him . All you will do is hurt the wife . He wont care hes hurting herxallready by cheating on her . Why hurt her ? I felt the same longed to tell the oow about me . But she wouldnt have listened and it would be a case of jealous sour grapes on my part . Id rather just walk away and learn a lesson . Its not nice being in a rlship where its angst ridden and 100 percent mistrust . I got a good slapping up sidecthe head when i clicked he bullshitted to me for years . Youd be better off walking away if slowly with the ofd fall of wagon but slowy getting away from them . The old ex mm is still in his crappy job and six months downbthe line he still be dissatisfied with his life just diff sit for him . Some one will blow smoke up his arse and hell be cheating up a storm with sumone eles that thinks hes fantastic sexy guitar guy . Take a good step back and look at them really , always want someone or mummy to save em from their dreary lives , only they can do that . Revenge what is the point it acheives nothing and wint bring him back .
I’ve had moments when I badly want him to hurt as much as me and it has crossed my mind to expose him either through the university (he was my thesis supervisor) or let his wife know. The feeling doesn’t last long. More mess is not what I need and quite frankly I could not deal with it. I’m sure I would have a nervous breakdown. If his wife approached me and wanted to know then I would talk to her, but I wouldn’t approach her first. She really is the innocent person in this whole mess and I wouldn’t want to use her to get at him just to make myself feel temporarily better. I’ve stepped on her toes already. In my case I believe the AC probably has all bases covered anyway. I am convinced he is a pathological narcissist and wouldn’t feel anything whatever I did. I agree with Tired I’d rather just walk away and learn a lesson. What a painful lesson it is.
You, Lilly, say nothing. Your ex is dangerous and your priority is to get away.
Grace, the thought of telling the university or his wife actually scares me. He once told me that if the university found out it would be the worst thing for me not him. I hadn’t threatened to do it or anything he just stated it as matter of fact. I remember the look in his eyes when he said it. I will leave things alone.
I got accidentally mixed up in a situation with an old school friend of my ex…who turned up in my town with a woman on a date night a couple of years ago. He was married to another woman who I liked very much who actually thought he was on a walkabout with a First Nations healer so he could “find himself.” She called me in a panic because she thought he was lost in the wilderness that (gulp) I had seen him recently with another woman. It turned out he had set things up over a year ago with an OW and had developed an elaborate set of lies which to me was the WORST thing about it. Things happened really fast after that. Within a week my friend (the married wife) had ended the relationship with her husband and put their joint house up for sale. But we talked about it and I suggested she call the other woman because I suspected he had lied to her too. And she thought it was a good idea and they had a GREAT talk for over two hours and it was healing for her. It was all part of her own denial pattern which she had replicated with several other previous relationships and I think she felt it actually made the acceptance of things easier. For her it was important to know the truth as painful as it was…and eventually she was able to meet her ex again (already onto the second the third women) and have a good-bye ceremony. I guess the situation of who to tell what is individual. For me, I would want to know.
Thanks for the comments. It helps to hear all sides. It is not sour grapes or because I want to wind up with him. It is because I DON’T. I am sick of all the lies and manipulation. Who knows, she may want to compare notes. But even if she believes him, it will make him think twice before doing this to anyone else. They have no kids, so whatever she chooses to do with the info is up to her. I just want to clear the air and move on. I don’t know that I have it in me to do it, though. You have all given me a lot to think about. Many thanks.
Well, Chronic, the end result of mine was that yes indeed he will think twice before doing it again. I am clear of him which is what I wanted too, well I didn’t really know what I wanted at the moment it happened, but the truth shall set you free indeed, and I know now that I really don’t want him. I ordered Nat’s book online and sent it to his wife with my email address in case she wanted to find out anything from me directly. I have not heard anything from her, though she’s now on her second AC marriage and may feel too invested to cut out, at least before they give the counselling a proper go. And he’s very very manipulative and can switch on the tears in a flash – hell he’s a trained actor, so she may not have much of a chance at getting it. Regardless, I did what I could to rectify from my side, the ball is in her court if she wants to know she has the means. All I know is I’ve put the offer out there, I’m done, but I let her know my door is open to her if she wants to know. But after it all, she may just want to choose to believe in him again. And that is fine. I just know that I won’t choose to believe in that kind of crap again myself – and that’s all that counts to me…
Re-teaching people about ourselves is, after all, simply returning the favour.
The reason why we ended up in terrible relationshits is because we were presented with particular men who ensured that they originally appeared worthy of our time, attention and affection. But over the course of days, weeks, months or even years, they re-taught us through their scum-sucking behaviour what they really are. Every relationshit was different in the terms on which it began, but every single one of them ran a downward trajectory right along the lines of what he wanted and intended. If that sounds awfully strident, think for a minute how satisfied he seemed with the whole ordeal. Pretty flippin happy, no? Pretty flippin intent on maintaining the painful status quo, right?
Re-teaching them that we don’t suck scum, no not even for them, has to be the only decent, viable thing to do in response that will make us feel any kind of love for ourselves. Of course they won’t like it. Of course they’ll be angry if we demonstrate an unwillingness to continue bottom-feeding. Because what does that say about them?
This is why I think going NC is such a big deal. Every day that passes, I realise just how important a move it was and how important it continues to be. That’s me, re-teaching him, in the strongest and loudest terms.
Oh, this describes it perfectly. 100% right.
The toughest thing I find about teaching or re-teaching people about expectations is the physical/emotional reaction I have. For example, today I asserted myself with a friend/professional acquaintance as he seemed to think it was OK to offer my, (unpaid for) assistance to one of his colleagues. I’m all for doing favours but this made me feel really uncomfortable. So I broke with my traditional ‘yes’ and feeling trapped…I addressed the matter. So yay me!
However…that was 10 hours ago and it’s STILL bothering me! I am feeling sick with I don’t know…self doubt or guilt? I’m also replaying the conversation in my head…I have a terribly critical inner voice that makes me justify every assertive move I make and still makes me wrong!
But I am determined to stand my ground and not buy into these feelings or thoughts. I won’t fight them…I know I must turn my attention elsewhere and not engage with them. Hopefully, after time and practice, this horrible response I experience when standing up for myself will be replaced with…well nothing really! I look forward to the day when I do this and absolutely nothing else happens other than I get on with my day!!
I wish us all the courage to stand up for ourselves and the strength to ride out the bad feelings and come out the other side with the sense of freedom we all deserve 🙂
Well, this latest post has certainly given me pause. I’ve read it once-twice-thrice, and it is me to a T. A few of you in previous responses to another post referenced the Myers- Briggs. I’m an INFP. Very rare, apparently, and also have trouble leaving relationships. Of course I’m sure all of you who’ve had to leave a Mr.UA behind via NC will agree ( and I’ve read that you do) struggle to cut the final cord. Yes, I’m still at it… struggling, that is. Although I must say, reading these posts and Natalie’s amazingly cut-to-the-chase comments are incredibly helpful. It is always comforting to know one is not alone in their plight, as for awhile there, before I discovered BR, I thought I was. Insane or headed there. Now, while contact has not been cut, I am learning to become me again. What has happened? I need advice on this, and please don’t castigate me for what may seem obvious. I recall reading another’s post on a man who swiped his cell phone out of her hands and began accusing her of all of his vileness. It was obvious to 99% of us that he was totally projecting, although not to her, the poor dear, as our hearts cloud our ability to see straight.
Anyway. Flashback to pre- Valentine’s day weekend. A night out with a group of casual acquaintances, one of whom I haven’t seen in awhile. She waits until Mr. UA head to the loo, then proceeds to give me the quick update that he’s on a dating website, presumably the same one she is now on, having come off of a relationship awhile back. Was I shocked? Of course not. I had suspected. Upon his return from the restroom, he noticed my change of demeanor immediately and began questioning. I waited until we left, then told him to take me home, I was done. He was despicable, blah blah. The thing is- I really meant it, and he knew it.
He categorically denies being on that or any other dating website, proceeds to tell me he loves me very much ( never said that before). Blew uber hot over Valentines- three cards all with L.O.V.E. all over the place. My dilemma- am I living in denial….. yes, I suppose I know the answer to that, but. I have been debating setting up a fake profile on a few of the sites I know he’s used in the past. My questions: do I really need to do that, or don’t I have enough information anyway? Is this really what I want? Of course not. This man has been in my life, in one way or another, for just shy of two years now. Yes, I love him. I love him not just for his looks and charm, the latter of which has greatly diminished in my eyes anyway, but for his humor, his wit, his …… hmmm. Perhaps I am answering my own question. Kindness? No, he hasn’t been truly kind to me, unless it suits him. Honesty? Please, despite his protestations, there is no trust and I know without trust there is no real foundation. Work ethic? He is in a state of perpetual drama with his job- which of course is not his fault; he is the victim. Now, despite what you all say about the ACS and Mr. UAs of the world, I don’t believe anyone is all evil. My AC is not evil,but I don’t know how to just press flush. This was the hottest he’s ever blown, and it threw me, and he knew I meant business, and he blew hot for just long enough ( we’re now in the cooling phase) to feel confident that I’m back. So do I check out these dating websites to give myself that final push or kick in the a$$? Please advise, dear readers. and don’t be too hard on me.
Pandora
Pandora,
Goodness,how much more evidence do you need!!!!!!! Why in the world would he buy three cards if we were innocent? Don’t you think his reaction screamed guilt? Why are you wasting any more energy on this with setting up a profile, does that sound like it leads to a healthy future?
None of the things you mentioned had to do with values or character. These are not things a relationship makes, but you know that already.
When are you going to start treating yourself with love and kindness! Time to get out of this mess. The guy is a cheat!
Pandora
As you have already confronted him, he has had a warning and can take down or hide his profile. So you would be unlikely to find anything now. Your friend had no reason to lie, whereas he has every reason. His behaviour sounds like guilty too. I would believe her. What to do with that information is up to you, but you know he’s looking around, and is almost certainly meeting and sleeping with other women. Also you know he is a liar.
Pandora
Step away from the madness. Please don’t stalk him online with a fake profile. It’s immature, drama-seeking and deceptive. I don’t think we do say that they’re evil (though some are), not sure how you got that idea. You want the assurance that because he’s “not evil” you can continue to engage. Well, “not evil” is quite a low bar to set.
I had trouble leaving relationships too but in the end I did it. My last ex was the end of the line for me. He wasn’t evil at all. He would never push it with someone unwilling. He was immature, irresponsible, dishonest, and unfaithful. That’s enough to end a relationship. I didn’t need to stalk him to know what he was like. You’ve known him two years. At this point you should be committed, and even looking to marriage, not setting up a fake profile to catch him out. What’s the point?
Looks, charms, good humour, wit. Blah. Don’t get me wrong, I have a lot of fun and laughs with my boyfriend but that’s because underlying it all is a solid foundation of trust and respect. It’s just not that funny when you don’t know where they are from day to day.
Pandora, I’m an INFP too 🙂 I do think there is a danger in saying, “I’m and INFP, so I have trouble leaving relationships.” You’re giving yourself an excuse: this is just the way I AM. Actually, this doesn’t have to be true. One of the things I enjoy about being an INFP is that I feel things very deeply; and there are a few core issues that I’m incredibly passionate about. Despite our propensity toward people pleasing, if someone trespasses or undermines one of our core values—our CLAWS come out. All the sudden we are confident and assertive, and not giving two shits about what anyone else thinks about us. Using a strengths-based perspective, I believe that if we really started to value OURSELVES, and if we really started to value integrity in ourselves and in others; leaving relationships won’t be so dammed difficult. AS INFP’s, we’re considered “Idealists.” Our main motivation is to make a significant difference in the world: to bring about change or right wrongs and other perceived injustices. This can be a beautiful thing—except when this “idealism” is directed toward an individual, particularly an EU/AC.
Instead of thinking, I’m an INFP and it’s going to be incredibly difficult for me to leave this shit relationship (and it IS shit, btw)instead you could think: I’m an INFP, and I have all the resources I need to value myself quite strongly and find fulfillment pursuing change in my community, in my country—NOT in my partner! He’s broke, Pandora, and YOU CAN’T FIX HIM. Your skills are being wasted on this man. Stalking him on a dating site is just drama. You’re better than that! From one INFP to another: ((((hugs)))))
Thanks, Laurie,
You are correct. You, and Grace, and Nataysha ( Magnum PI- LOL, love it!). INFP is “NOT” an excuse, it’s perhaps an explanation; however, your rationale is rock solid. I am wasting my skills on him. Stalking will produce nothing I am not aware of anyway. So, thanks to all for the responses. Grace- btw, some ARE evil and some are referred to as such ( see one of the many comments below). I don’t see mine as evil as much as hapless, helpless, and your spot-on characterization of: “immature, irresponsible, dishonest and unfaithful”. That sums it up rather well. It is ironic, as he knew my history with my husband of 20+ yrs. who cheated on me and my no. 1 priority of integrity. He has claimed, endlesslessly, to be a person of integrity yet his actions and his words don’t match.
Indeed, happy flushing Natashya- but it really won’t be happy, let’s not be unreleastic. The happiness will come with hindsight.
Thank you all for sharing your wisdom and insights.
((hugs)) P
pandora, i know the flushing won’t be happy. i wish it was that easy. i am an INFP, too and i really do get how hard it is to let go. i also have a fair amount of scorpio in my chart. i should thank the lord for not turning out to be a bunny boiler!! 🙂
the moment you feel the need to create a false profile to check up on this AC, or check his phone or become involved in any kind of magnum PI activity, is a sign that something is very wrong. you have all the information you need. happy flushing.
Thank you!
“We teach people what to expect from us and sadly if we don’t have good boundaries, we can end up teaching them what they can get away with.”
What have I taught him? That I am compliant, that I am a pushover, that I will put his interests and feelings ahead of my own, that I will accept crumbs, that I will allow him to use me as he sees fit, that he can trample over me and my feelings and worse that I will tolerate his cruelty no matter how bad. Well not anymore. Time to teach the evil bastard something new. Time to teach him that I will no longer put up with his cruel, senseless treatment, none of it, that I will now put myself first. And how do I teach him that? By walking completely away. No more seeking a miracle, no more validation seeking, no more trying to turn back time. It’s just as Natalie describes “When you break, you break”. It’s only been 6 days since he left me stranded. I’m suffering, and I can choose to do nothing or I can feel the pain, get up and keep moving. I’m going to keep moving. It really is a choice.
Lilly that sounds like an excellent decision.
As much as I’d love to say “no, you didn’t teach him all those self-demeaning things about yourself at all!”, I can’t — I think you’re right, and I think you have. He has demonstrated that he doesn’t care about all the damage he’s done so far, and in fact he’s pretty game to damage you some more, provided it benefits him — which leaves me thinking he actually must like knowing you’re in agony. It makes him feel like a big deal. It makes him feel like he can make women walk through fire for him. It’s long past time to show him he can take his self-aggrandising fantasies and shove ’em.
Lilly,
I’m not being flippant when I say to you that the only way from here is up. Think about and let this comfort you: you will NEVER AGAIN have to face this man or be at his mercy again. You are safe and protected by NC now. The worst is over. Stop looking back and start looking forward now, love. Yes, you may need to check the rearview mirror every once in a while as you’re processing these things, but for the most part, keep your eyes straight ahead.
Hola fellow BR reader 🙂
I am crawling out of my fecking skin. I have this friend from college. Typical driver. Me the passenger. Quite literally. I’d accompany her in most of her road trips where I’d just sit back quiet as a mouse. Anyway, back in the day (a few years ago. we live in different cities now) she would get angry with me for no initiating and shutting her out. Since I’ve made it my life’s work to atone to her, to makeup up for being emotionally absent from our friendship. I shouldered all the blame and I think she’s happily letting me. Well, she’s gotten in this pattern of making plans with me and thrice in a row, bailed or canceled or postponed.
The last episode: She said she’d call me after 5. I get a text of how busy she is asking me if it’s okay if she calls me this weekend. I haven’t responded. Because just like old times, it’d have me hanging around for her call. Hell no I say! So I haven’t responded but I feel terribly guilty. Truth is I don’t particularly want to engage the ‘friendship’ anymore. It goes in these miserable fits and starts and always ends in drama. O my god. I’ve been her friend fallback girl. What the hell do I do?
Peanut,
Why not remove yourself from the friendship? If she doesn’t make you happy and is flakey, why are you continuing?
You’re not obligated to stay in a friendship.
I am so grateful I’ve never been involved with a MM. It’s just not in my personal constitution to do so, and furthermore, I have too much respect for other women to go there. I was also taught never to chase after someone who belongs to someone else. The only thing I can say is step away from the penis, and get an ounce of pride in yourself. A MM is the most destructive of all AC’s–he’s already dumping on someone he’s made a formal committment to—so, really what can you expect? It’s like the old fable of the turtle that gives the snake a ride on his shell across the creek. Once across, the snake turns around and bites the turtle in the face. The turtle says, “Why did you do that? I helped you cross the creek” The snake says, “You knew what I was when I gave you a ride.” You teach these kind, and other unfortunate “mistakes” a new you by going NC & doing it hardcore. Otherwise, get used to getting bitten. Thanks again Nat, your words mean so much to me and helped more than you know!
Chroniclyaccute, I walked in your shoes and want to add my one cent. When my denial bubble burst, I wanted to tell the world what a scum bucket he was, including his wife. During a suck it and see weekend, his wife put a tail on him and the gig was up. She didn’t have to believe him or me, she had pics. Long, gruesome story short, they went to counseling, are still married, and he continued to contact me. Did it make him think twice? Apparently not. He is a public figure, married for 30 some years, and both our respective children are grown. Like you, I was sick of the lies and manipulation. If you want to clear the air, clear it with you. Teaching him a lesson is probably futile. Learning from this experience could be invaluable to you though, albeit hugely painful. Clearing the air with me has been painful as well as rewarding. Good luck to you.
Funny that, how she went to all that length and they’re still together, and he’s still the same. Not that it’s any of our business. But thank GOODNESS you’re not still involved in that mess!
Yeah, it ended up being one of those moments. I learned more about me though and how to never get sucked into such crap. When the guy has problems, they are his problems. I got my own, thank you very much. I found a MM to be the most destructive as Wise Ol Owl suggests and is so elegantly explained in Natalie’s post Double Heist Gone Wrong. Yup… The snake says, “You knew what I was when I gave you a ride.” We knew he was married. Therein lies the lesson.
Be careful how you formulate the afirmations lest you give yourself commands for just the opposite of what you want. Which means: phrase them in the positive, because to your inner mind “this asshole shall not ruin my life” is just as good as saying “this asshole shall ruin my life”. Better say something like: “this asshole’s bearing on my life is zero”.
Even better perhaps to have an affirmation that doesn’t include the asshole AT ALL, the objective being to leave no space for them in your life or head.
Wise ol owl. I was brought up in a successful marriage and had a “good” childhood. I was taught values. I did not “chase after a MM”. I was totally shocked that someone I’d know casually for several years would suddenly decide he wanted me. It was a perfect set-up for him since I unwittingly, naively and unknowing of the person he could be, contracted him to do work on my house. My husband, whom I’d be totally dependent upon to handle the house project and everything else, had recently died. I was grieving my loss and at my most vulnerable. All I wanted was a little happiness temporarily. My self respect and values along with CHRONIC low self esteem did not enter the picture. And, he was not even someone I was physically attracted to, but a superior lover. (Sure, he’s had plenty of practice). My point is to say to you, “Never say never.” You don’t know. Human beings can find themselves in such catastrophic situations that they may end up doing things that they never thought they would do without any prompting from the past that would lead to their actions. Now, I look at other peoples and I don’t say “That would never be me”. I’m not talking about becoming a mass murderer or physically harming someone. But, we all have our reasons for what we have done and still do. When you divest yourself of unhealthy people and unhealty (in my case, shameful, self-destructive) behavior, you are on the road to recovery. You have a chance to create a new and more self-fulling life for yourself. My experience with the MM was the WORST and I’ve reiterated many times on BR this fact and how I have victoriously extricated myself from the much and filth of being an OW in an adulterous relationshit. But, Had I not been in it, I probably would never have become the person I am now. I never would have been lead to BR, and self-help materials, an therapist and learning how to take care of Tink in a much more encompassing manner. Si I thank my strength and I thank God that ugly past is OVER. I don’t look down on anyone else. I try to help them if I can if they want help. But most of all I don’t have time to worry about others complex problems as I’m busy working on my own. We all have to learn in our own way and our own time.
Tink, your post shows your wisdom with age. “Never say never” You just don’t know. Amen. It’s important to be nonjudgmental and not holier-than-thou here.
We’ve all suffered some interpersonal grief, and found this blog. We may read a story here and say, what on earth does she see in that creep? Or, say, not me, not in a million years would I have done that. We may say, can’t this blogger finally go NC and get on with it? It’s obvious to us what a horrific situation they are in.Don’t they read Nat’s articles and get it? Well, from what I have learned a bit later in life is that humans are multidimensional,which is what has fascinated and challenged the philosophers (forerunners of psychologists)and playwrights for centuries. Our beloved Shakespeare held captive audiences wondering about love, jealousy, betrayal, and then some. We’re all trying to get a handle on human nature, and why we do the things we do. I am happily married for 31 years. Monogamous, committed, but what happened?
One day my husband and I joined a club which we both love. And there was the math professor, the “love”(limerance) of my life from my 20’s that I had gone NC with 32 years before. Part two of my story: I wondered how his adult life had gone, career, women, health…I felt friendly and friendship. I chatted with him, you know, how’ve you been all these years? Then one afternoon which I found myself spending with him, I said to him, “Never in my wildest dreams did I ever imagine myself doing this”. I had refallen in love. If what I experienced could happen to ME, it can happen to anyone on the planet. That’s why I’m here.
I’ll unfold, as I really put this behind me and hope someday someone reviewing these articles will find simple pleasures and think, wow, I never thought it could happen to me, but she went through it too.
I love reading your posts Simple Pleasures. It happened to me and that’s why I’m here. Nope, never say never. But I will say, I will never, ever, ever give the time of day to a MM and I don’t care how dreamy or successful he is. After what I’ve been through, he’d be lucky to escape with his body parts in tow! That’s not quite Shakespeare. But I have at least drawn a boundary with regards to MM’s. Love your writing.
Chronic can i ask one thing ?
Because this is what stopped me telling wife . If the ex mm had picked me do u think id given her a backward glance ? And i asked myself that honestly ? And at the time i said no i wouldn’t . She why the need now ? Plus when i was in fb stalker mode i saw what it did to her when she found out about the oow . I felt a right “””””””””. All that time i sort of hard to explain acted like she wasn’t there it was just a name . This is me being very truthful . It wont teach him a lesson as he’d had a history of lying and doing this thing . He shirks his responsibilities with ease that’s who he is . These men wriggle out or just go off with other women who are either blind to it at first or know and they try there own ways of dealing with them. one of my friends is with the man who left his wife for her . Shes gone from a strong girl to a nervous wreck , suss of his every move , never leaves his side . Tracks him on his phone etc , what sort of life is that always wondering if its coming that almighty punch in the guts ? I only git to feel a fraction of what the wife felt and look how pathetic i was on here ! Her betrayal a thousand times worse and she still has to deal with seeing him and watching him with someone else on a weekly basis . Count yourself lucky you can walk away , it is hard very hard but only time heals it . When i look back he choose the better option for him he wanted a easy lifestyle . Reality is already knocking at his door 🙂
Shyner
You remind me of my best friend , shes in a very toxic rlship with a narcissistic man . Hes horrible , rows , nasty all those things . She now likes rowing with him thats all they do . When he goes silent she crashes and burns . Ive tried to help , three years this been going on . She says I’ve deleted him were done . But hes still got your no so can still text you , she says he owes me twenty quid ! So what forget it . Its really her sub conscious finding ways to stay in touch when all she gets is more pain . I’m not having a go as i know you’ve just took the brave steps to get away and you’re crashing and burning a bit . One day strong , one day yuk . But if you stick to it it will level out . You just got to give it time . You will have mental moments where later like i did go “what the frigging hell did i do that for !” But its like a drug as it slowly leaves the system . Re write your book and stick his through his door or get a friend to . Don’t hive him the chance to humiliate you any more 🙂 you can do this 🙂
Man, sometimes you have to reteach yourself. As in, we have to reteach ourselves again and again that we can expect good things, and good behavior, from ourselves. Sometimes when I slip I feel like I might slide back into the blackest depression and feelings of powerlessness.
I still feel like I don’t have any leeway to have a normal bad day with my family after having taught them that my anger and depression were a constant and that they could ignore it/judge me/pity me etc. I suppose my “normal bad day” can be pretty bad … but in any case I have to constantly relearn to rely on my own self for ‘esteem’ of myself and for any answers (if I should even be asking the question) of “how am I doing”?
My folks know I’ve changed but it doesn’t mean they have, which means that even if I’m more healthy emotionally it doesn’t mean they’re in any better position to be supportive when I need it. I can be healthy and still need support now and then: I’m still learning how to handle that need, as turning to them from a healthy-but-down place is still putting my hand back in the fire. My getting strong did not “teach” my mom how to be in touch with her own feelings, but it has caused different and new moments of grace or of friction and we’ve both learned from those.
I send greetings from Berkeley, California (!) where I’m here for a conference and will be presenting a paper. More practice for me to expect that things will go well, and that I deserve to be here. My comfort zone has been to treat these things like awful exercises in superficiality that appal both the deep-authentic-soulful-Magnolia and the socially-anxious-Magnolia.
It’s still a stretch to look at conferences as fun and exciting opportunities to meet people, and build relationships and community, but becoming a stress-case wasn’t working for me. Here’s to teaching, and reteaching, myself!
@Magnolia
“Man, sometimes you have to reteach yourself. As in, we have to reteach ourselves again and again that we can expect good things, and good behavior, from ourselves. Sometimes when I slip I feel like I might slide back into the blackest depression and feelings of powerlessness.”
The other day, I realized that I have now begun to re-teach myself about self-control, and I thought hmmm this is what these psychologists must mean by re-parenting, and for the first time in my life, I didn’t see it as putting limits on my personal freedoms, which I don’t think my ‘inner child-self’ appreciated much at first; as in the past, I would have rationalized myself out of my need for self-control in favor of self-indulgence, but self-indulgence is annoying me, as I try to, daily, honor the commitments that I have made to myself.
And just this realization alone, has helped me honor my commitments for now because I see the self-love and self-care in the teaching–I want to do better by myself, so I’m taking better care of myself by re-teaching myself….
But, I guess I haven’t really thought to expect good behavior from myself, necessarily…. I’ve just been thinking, man some of this I can do, but some of this is going to be ‘hard’ even though it is what I want….
My fantasies used to protect me from some pretty harsh realities as a child, and I’ve used them to ‘survive’ in adulthood as well, and I can see both sides of my fantasies at work: the ‘good’ illusions and the ‘bad’ illusions, both designed to protect me from reality, and ultimately preventing me from participating in reality.
I realize now that I spend a lot of my time in fantasy–good and bad, and I only come into reality when I think it is safe; I’m finding it a bizarre coping mechanism; it screws with my head, and I hate it because I feel as if I can’t see what is going on in my life; it’s like being asleep and waking up to discover what is really going on …. I suppose some of it is caused by screwed-up thinking patterns.
It’s funny because lately as I sift through my list of addictions, I have been thinking “wow,” you haven’t really addressed your anger issues and you’ve been on this journey now for almost two years, and you are still seeing things in people that aren’t there and you are still fantacizing about men and …, and when are you going to stop? … and you started eating sugar again, so when are you going to stop for real this time? and ….
I see how my addiction to fantasy, sugar, etc. helps me to handle my stress, and I know that I have to find better ways of coping, which is what I am working on, but there is still this underlying fear that is causing a great deal of the stress, and that is that I am afraid that I am going to slip into a dark depression, and that I will get down so low that I won’t be able to get back up, and as I write about this now, I’m thinking, wow, that’s it.
I have these moments where I sense that doing certain things are going to trigger too much stress, and I am going to fall straight down this dark pit of despair, but I’m chewing on what you said, and yes maybe I can expect better behavior from myself; maybe I won’t slip; maybe I will get down in despair, but I will come back up.
Maybe this is just me avoiding pain or failure or the possibility of failure or how about success? Maybe I don’t need sugar, anger, and fantasy to cope with life? Maybe they are habits or just remnants from a childhood past.
Maybe I am stronger than I think. Maybe it is just normal to feel this way, or….
Maybe, just maybe, I can sit in the anxiety long enough without reaching for some chips, a cookie, or zoning off in my head, do what I need to do, and break these patterns in time.
Yes, maybe I can expect the best in my behavior. This pattern–I think it is the mother load of all patterns for me, and if I can break it, or shall I say WHEN I break it, I am going to experience hellu growth, so here goes
aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!
I think Eleanor Roosevelt had it ‘right’:
You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You must do the thing which you think you cannot do.
Here’s to “we have to reteach ourselves again and again that we can expect good things, and good behavior, from ourselves.” and to RE-teaching ourselves!
Cheers!–Sugarland
Welcome to Cali, Mags! 🙂 Hope your conference is going well.
Hey Magnolia, welcome to So Cal. You and Sugarland so nailed it. It is about teaching ourselves. You deserve to be at this conference and you will shine. Just relax into the conference pace. I always hated conferences because there were too many people in my space and the food sucked. So I figured out to pack crackers and cheese and chocolate chip cookies and go for long walks while everyone else was eating the mystery meat. Then when I had to present, I was calm and filled with crackers.
Hey Magnolia, I went to Cal! You are in my stomping grounds.
You should hang out in Rockridge Oakland ( walking distance from campus super pretty walk). There are tons of cute cafes and it is adorable:) I miss the Bay Area, but not the rent…:) Have fun on that beautiful campus!
Hi everyone, another poster mentioned this at some point but I’d like to mention it too and ask what you think. I find that reteaching what to expect is a great tool when it comes to men and relationships because if the person is positively walking all over you or acting like a tool, you leave the relationship, go no contact, and then move on from there. However, I have found that with some family members, when it’s not really a possibility or desirable outcome to completely cut contact, reteaching is a different story and is much harder. I’m thinking in particular about when a relative has a passive-aggressive communication style and makes a lot of demands, then just keeps trying to push my buttons until they get a reaction, even if I make it clear I’m not doing whatever it is they’re demanding. Does anyone have any experience with or thoughts on this? As I said, not always possible to totally cut contact with a close relative.
Jennifer,
What do you mean by not possible? I cut contact with my mother a few years ago. I kept giving her “chances” but she kept falling back into her abusive patterns. Perhaps I’m being naive, but I’m not sure what situation would make it impossible to cut contact with a family member (except in the case of dependent children). When I cut contact with my folks, I l became homeless (I moved back home with my parents immediately after my separation from my husband–HUGE mistake). I slept on friends couches for a couple of months until I got a job. Obviously that is an extreme example, but cutting contact was absolutely necessary–no matter the consequences. I think there are people with whom it’s not necessary to cut contact; perhaps we just need to assert our boundaries. But when people habitually cross our boundaries, we check out. Period. People really aren’t that forgetful that we have to repeat ourselves upteen times what our “boundaries” are. That’s not teaching–that’s patronizing. I learned that the hard way. Teaching in this case, IS walking away.
Laurie,
Going NC with family is a difficult issue. My mother did something appalling a number of years ago and treated me disgustingly. I cut all contact with her for about a year. However I have 2 children who were then aged 5 & 3. They missed their GM. it also meant to a large extent cutting out other family members because we couldn’t go to family gatherings. My husband had no relations in this country. In the
end I did reluctantly reopen the door. She does still push it with me, quite often. Sometimes I can deal with it calmly, other times it does make me angry. Truth is I have little affection for her and I now feel that she never had much for me. BUT most of the time things are bearable.
I have texted his friend to ask if it’s still ok to post it to him. If it is, that’s what I’ll do. I don’t want there to be a reason for ex to contact me.
Shyner,
I can think of at least a million things more valuable than his fucking book—your self-respect for starters. BURN IT. There is something incredibly cathartic about disposing of this shit. Better yet, take a pen, and on every piece of paper, write: I AM WORTH MORE THAN THIS. Forget about your journal. THIS is the most important thing you can write and hold onto at this moment. In a few years, you’re not going to regret this relationship ending, but you will regret not respecting yourself. When I look back on my failed marriage, that truly is my one and only regret.
BTW, he won’t contact you if you BLOCK him! Honestly, I doubt he’d contact you at all, and I think this is really what you’re afraid of. His actions have nothing to do with you. LET IT BE. Seriously.
Shyner,
Girl, isn’t this the “healer” guy who spent too much time “laying his hands” on others rather than contacting you? Leave his homeless, broke-ass alone and get on with your life. He can buy a new notebook in the Bargain section at Barnes and Nobles for $4.99.
He doesn’t have a door – he’s homeless. Or at least was. He was living with me.
Shyner
no contact is a wonderful thing. Its starts by being committed to yourself…repeat the magic phrase ‘assclown be gone!’ then stop thinking about them, burn their crap, change your cell phone number, block them on facebook and absolutely stop making or thinking of reason to get their attention like sending back books. Keep your self respect. When someone shits on you from a great height, you don’t look up and say thank you! If you persist in banging on about something that is really irrelevant you are just wasting your own head space which could be filled with going out with friends, making new friends, dating decent guys, going to the gym, making some new goals basically anything that is good for you and absolutely nothing to do with him. Try it, it really does work.
Mymble. Bravo. My thoughts exactly. Leaving no space in your thoughts, either. Like, and I repeat, NOT CALLING HIM “MY” EX, etc. Was he ever “yours”? It’s all part of completely dissociating yourself from him.
Mags
Hope Berkeley is fun. Don’t go to science conferences anymore as I find them boring and they are tend to be in awful, unwalkable places. Gotta find some sustainability ones.
I agree, sometimes we need to re teach ourselves, that we are worth more. Vulnerability, especially when we have a problem family and little support of any sort makes us do and feel things we ordinarily would not. I re taught my dad this last October, on my damned birthday, when he told me from the ICU, to eff off because I discussed his condition with his doctor. Ironically, he has begun to respect my values and intellect for the first time in 52 years. AC is returning after a one month absence from work, I dread it. Although many of the daily stresses and anger associated with this place are still there, it was great to have a break from having to see/deal with his sorry ass. I’d rather continue walking away from him but if he challenges my leadership of the faculty, he’s gonna need some re education.
Each to their own in deciding what is right for them in their particular situations however I’m astounded at the number of WOMEN advising chronic not to tell the MM’s wife, (note ALSO a WOMAN) who has a RIGHT to know the FULL REALITY of what she is dealing with. Wow. I understand the reasons explained for this, but still… I’m speechless.
It’s the wee hours here now so will weigh in with a counter viewpoint in the near future. Wow…. (can you say ‘where did the sisterhood go’ or ‘what happened to the personal IS political?’)
Teachable,
I totally agree! If it were me, I would want to know!
The bit that bothers me, is feeling the dire need to tell the wife what a lying, cheating bastard the MM is, when it wasn’t an issue when you were having the affair.
Sorry, but people seem to become self-righteous after they have been dumped.
Meant to say: they were having the affair.
Actually, will just have a short crack now. Firstly no disrespect AT ALL to those of a differing view. I respect difference & many of you greatly.
That said, Chronic informing the wife of the full extent of what has gone on, may not neccessarily be about wanting to punish or get back at the MM (although of course there’s bound to be an element of this. A mature woman however CAN set that desire aside & consider the bigger picture, in this case, placing herself in the wife’s position & thinking perhaps I should tell her, b.c I was her, I would want to know. I got that the latter thought process is happening for chronic from her post & I think that rationale for spilling the beans is indeed quite sound).
I also see such a disclosure (done respectfully) more as a way of chronic being able to create PERMANENT closure for herself in terms of her involvement with the MM, as her actions, right ON POINT WITH THE TOPIC OF THIS POST, will ‘RETRAIN’ this MM, in what to expect of her in future. ie It effectively closes the door on this affair for Chronic for good as such a disclosure is a VERY POWERFUL statement to the MM. It indicates to him LOUD & CLEAR, that chronic will NO LONGER participate in the SECRECY & CLANDESTINE nature of this affair, without which, presumably (unless the wife permits this, which would be very unusual), it CANNOT SURVIVE.
A further aspect is that although chronic has made a terrible mistake in not treating the wife thus far, as SHE in a similar position were the roles reversed, would like to be treated (ie if she was married, no doubt she would not want an OW having an affair with HER husband), the full disclosure she is considering, offers her an opportunity to set this right.
I also believe that this notion that OW’s ought to slink away (shattered & broken hearted no doubt once they’ve realised the folly of their ways), & leave unfaithful MM to continue on their merry way, consequence free is an absolute CROCK. MM will only learn the error of their ways when they experience consequences of their behaviour. I’m NOT suggesting such a disclosure ought to be be made in the hope of breaking up the marriage, however, facilitating those consequences coming into play (whatever they may be, which is solely the business of the MM & his wife, is critical, to the best interests IMO, frankly, of ALL concerned (including the interests of any future OW, as further affairs MAY be prevented from occurring IF the MM & wife are able to sort their r.ship out).
If I was chronic I WOULD disclose, but give careful thought as to the most respectful way of doing so. ie a letter perhaps which you are CERTAIN will get directly to the wife & wont be intercepted (facebook perhaps?), with a contact number in case the wife wishes to confirm any details (she may or may not). After that, you leave it there, cut the BS in terms of no more contact with thd MM & MOVE ON. I would also be reassuring the wife that this is how you intend to handle the situation going forward.
Good luck Chronic, whatever you decide. T 🙂
PS I would also view failing to be willing make such a disclosure, as an OW holding a reservation, or some sort of hope that the affair will be re-ignited at some stage down the track & secretly or unconciously perhaps, seeing a current period of NC, as instead ‘taking a break’ from it (whilst outwardly proclaiming otherwise), rather than ending the BS for once & for all
If you want to be as close to certain as you will ever get that MM wont continue to return, (so long as safety issues have been addressed) TELL THE WIFE EVERYTHING. It’s not rocket science.
Lilly, due to your current fragile state of mind this would probably not be a good idea for you atm. If you find that you can’t maintain NC with your MM (ie within whatever boundaries you set given yr work/study sitch) going foward & continue to relapse into sexual relations with him, at some point you could consider this also &/or reporting his behaviour to your university. After all, IF such a situation eventuated, you wouldn’t want to be acting to orotect HIM, you’d want to be acting to protect YOU (& so for example, the university option might be best, if it was needed that is).
If I were you & there are laws or rules against what he’s done as your academic supervisor, I actually wouldn’t wait for any further relapses to occurr. I’d be reporting him to the uni NOW (to protect not only yrself but other students also). I understand this is your choice though & you may not feel up for it. That said, doing this most certainly WOULD be appropriate & the PERFECT way of ‘retraining’ him in how treat you from here on in!! 😉
@ teachable: with all due respect I don’t think that advising someone to report on their affair at work is a good idea; it would be one thing if someone was a child involved with a teacher, but a graduate student is a whole other ballpark…
Lilly is not the first, nor last, grad student involved with a prof, married or otherwise… and as such, a grad student is in a precarious position to be reporting on anyone. It could easily bounce back against her and she has worked very hard to get where she is now.She has emails from him; she can send him a pointed email if she wants, letting him know that their relationship should not affect her grades nor his ability to professionally speak of her value for a future position…this would be proof enough if he attempts to sabotage her.
Regardless, I disagree a lot with your posts on this issue as you know: I just think that women who involve themselves with married men, are not in the position to be running to the wife, because, as someone pointed out, no one was running to the wife when it first happened!
re; these words of yours “I’m NOT suggesting such a disclosure ought to be be made in the hope of breaking up the marriage, however, facilitating those consequences coming into play (whatever they may be, which is solely the business of the MM & his wife, is critical, to the best interests IMO, frankly, of ALL concerned”
actually this is not any OW’s business: her business is HER business: i.e. her own life, her own life with HERSELF. The MM’s relationship is his own business, once he is out of her life, and his wife’s is HERS. What you would want, you have no right, no right at all, to go informing a woman about her husband’s unfaithfulness: it is cruel, it is self-serving, and I call bullshit on any OW having some sort of high minded reason to do it; bullshit! If someone was happy enough at some point f-ing someone over, they should not turn around later and tell themselves that they are going to out their lover’s dodginess, as a higher minded principal. Give me a break!
You seem to always view OW’s as victims; I don’t. I view them as very clearly aware, from the beginning, that they were making a big mistake, that would hurt them and others. To cast them as redemptive forces who can help a marriage heal or be destroyed for “all concerned” is casting them, again, in a higher minded place than they are; I have been cheated on and the last thing I would have wanted was some dodgy OW calling me up “for my own good” to let me know how she “suffered”. I know that you yourself were cheated on, but then you abnegated the right to judge when you later cheated with someone on his wife. I just don’t think that someone who has been with a MM is in a position to ethically talk about her right to other people’s lives: the OW needs to just concern herself with her own life and choices and not make other women more miserable than they already are. the wife is not stupid. she will figure it out. We all make our own decisions and need to face and man up to those imho.
Dancing Queen,
Your post gave me lots to think about. I know that I lost my moral compass when I became involved with a MM, but I wasn’t as you say thinking clearly from the beginning and I didn’t realise the huge mistake I was making. Some may say there are no excuses and no justifications and they may be right, but I was in a fantasy world of fuzzy illusions and daydreams. Looking back all I know is that I was lacking in self-esteem, had no sense of self-worth and had no boundaries. There were reasons for all this and those reasons made me vulnerable. Am I a victim? No, I wasn’t a victim, because I willingly embarked on an affair. I selfishly pushed aside all those nagging thoughts about his poor wife and I foolishly chose to believe his crap. It is only now that the fog is clearing that I realise the huge mistake I made and the risk I took. It pains me greatly that I could be described as “some dodgy OW” but I suppose that is after all what I was. I made a mistake, a very costly mistake and I trusted him. I have learned my lesson at great cost and like Runner says in a previous post I will never, ever, ever get involved with a MM again. There would be no excuses or justifications for me anymore because I have learned this painful lesson, but back then I did not realise just how bad this was all going to be.
Lilly,
I will leave you to look at all the supportive posts that I have left for you, these last few days, which you have not commented on but for some reason, focused on this one to teachable.
re: ‘dodgy women”: if you read it again, I wasn’t calling all OW “dodgy OW”s”, I was calling an OW who would contact another woman and tell her about her husband’s affair as dodgy: I think that it is.
I think it is suspect (dodgy) in terms of its reasons for being said and I don’t see how someone who has feelings for another could contact them to let them know something that would cause them such heartbreak.
I don’t think that all ow’s are horrible people: if I did I would never have offered you so much support over these months as I have. That said, I do think that being an OW is very destructive to other women and that women, like myself, and others who have been cheated on have a right to make their feelings known so that OW can see how others feel.
it upsets me to hear when people talk about OW as victims because to me, whatever their victimhood, in only talking about them in that way, it ignores the other victims; the gf, the wife, the kids, of the guy who is cheating. They are the ultimate victims because they have no say in it, until they find out…it is awful finding out that someone you cared about cheated on you and horrible worrying about diseases and piecing together the past with a whole new idea “all those times he was not there, was he with her?” “Was he talking to her as he spoke to me?” It rewrites your whole shared past.
On my end, I was cheated on after moving halfway across the country to be with someone. I uprooted my life for him and when I caught them in bed, it was very very clear that she could have cared less about being caught: she knew about me, it was very clear from how she handled it ( and lets face it, she was in our shared house with my stuff all over the place). I don’t care what bill of goods he told her, from her way of dealing with being walked in on, it was very clear that she was just biding her time hoping that I would be gone. Which I was.It took me about 1 year to get over it. It had been a traumatic relationship: abuse, manipulation etc. I was deeply in love with him and I had no understanding of how stupidly I was letting someone walk all over me, because he was very good at making me think that i was the problem.
If they ended up together for a bit after, I don’t know, but I do remember that sock-in-the-gut feeling of her face just looking at me impassively like it was fine with her, when I walked in. Would you do that? No, but she did, she is/was the type to be a “dodgy OW” and please don’t be naive; your obvious kindness is not the only style of OW out there. There are lots of women who view themselves as sirens, view themselves as victims who are helping a man who is being “neglected”: several people here have posted about the wife like she is a harpy, in the past. She is a person who has value and has feelings.
I have commented on many of your posts the last few days with support and with a cheering squad. I am sorry that you centered on my words that made you feel badly and did not understand what I was saying. Hope you are feeling better now that you dumped the AC.
Dancingqueen,
I would like to say thank you for all your support.I have very much appreciated it and have drawn strength from it. In your post you commented that you view OW as very clearly aware that they are making a mistake from the beginning and that they’re aware that their behaviour would hurt them and others. Your post made me reflect on my role as the OW and whether or not I was thinking clearly from the beginning. I believe I wasn’t thinking clearly and that’s what I expressed.
I didn’t really comment on whether an OW should contact a wife or not because each situation is different. There may be many reasons why some choose to do that. As some people have commented on here if they were in the wife’s shoes they would want to know. I can only really speak for myself and for me telling his wife is not an option because I would cause her heartbreak and I’ve done enough damage already and also because I instinctively know not to go there. It would be dangerous for me.
I’m sorry if my post made you feel upset or angry, it was not intended. Your experience sounds very painful and as an exOW I’m ashamed that I could also inflict that kind of pain on another woman. I’m in the process of working this all out, trying to take responsibility, trying to work out why I did not value myself enough that I ended up in involved with a MM and why I allowed myself to be treated so badly.
Perhaps the bottom line is I do feel like a dodgy person, but I don’t want to be.
Allison,
“You are not obligated to stay in a friendship.” Oh. I have been engaging with her for no other reason than feeling obligated. She pursued being my friend when I had none. Truth is from the beginning I knew we wouldn’t get on very well and 5 years later, we still don’t. Thanks for helping me crack the code!
Peanut,
I too, have been guilty of sticking around too long.
When you free yourself of these types of ‘friends’ you soon realize how toxic they were to your life.
Good luck!
Natalie, When I read your Title, I had one of those ‘aha’ moments Oprah used to talk about. I don’t know how someone like you got to be so wise, so early in life, but I thank God for sending you my way. Truly mean that. Take care, Theresa.
This was definitely for me today. I’ve been accepting whatever my ex has been willing to give instead of not compromising my needs. I said I would go with him to a doctor’s appt, be there for his bday. Because of this, I’m empowered to let him know that I will not accept less than what I deserve and I will not be here for anything he needs.
I have had to try to learn to live with my discomfort when I do things differently with my ex. It helped to read this part about it not being about “them” but being about MY self care. When I keep my conversations neutral and to a minimum, or keep very clear physical or emotional distance – it feels strange to me even though I really have done it for years IN the marriage….I never “owned up” to taking action. The funny thing is that most of the time he wouldn’t even notice!!!
I fall into old thinking patterns, like you say Natalie…I start feeling “mean” cold and “cruel” and “selfish” – I start feeling like a bitch. I have been in a very long term relationship and acting this way much much more deliberately is hard. I realize it is even harder because my boundaries have to be a LOT stronger because I am still in contact. I have to have some kind of teflon shield against him. I am working on that.
One thing that has helped me a bit during my really down and confused periods is to focus on self care. It stabilizes me when my emotions are all over the map or when they are triggered into great sadness and pain which I don’t even understand sometimes.
Expresso,
It’s very difficult having to cohabit with the ex. This last few days I have decided to stop seeing my therapist. I realise I am depressed and anxious due to the situation I am in. It won’t get better while the moving out is hanging over my head. I both dread it and long for it. I wonder why you are still under the same roof? Our reasons are financial and to do with the kids.
At the moment I don’t have the security and comfort of a marriage, or the freedom to move on. All I have is his sad, angry face, unpredictable moods and heavy drinking, and the fear of what will become of us all, although logically I know I am resourceful and clear headed with emergencies and practical problems. It’s the stalemate (or should I say, the Stale Mate) that is killing me.
Mymble, I really feel for you, what a horrible situation. It sounds like some sort of limbo. I hope you find clarity soon. Hugs to you.
“It’s the stalemate (or should I say Stale Mate)”
At least it is not killing your wit;) Good one!
Awakened early to read BR. A bull’s eye as usual. All week I’d been reviewing old posts, sensing something was going to happen that required your collective wisdom and support.
So here I am, BR posters, after a year having an affair with an MM, watching him leave his wife, telling he wanted a future with me, me moving way back to see what develops and who he turns out to be, and now he’s announced he is dating.
My rationale mind was prepared for this. No amount of my reteaching had ever worked. I was waiting for him to lie to me as he lied to his wife. I am not prepared for the emotions i feel: the slide into insecurity, the jealousy, the betrayal, the rage. Somewhere deep in my soul I must have hoped he would pick me.
I can’t get my head around it. A year! I saw the red flags, the character defects, but I hung in (albeit at a distance). In the end, it feels like one big ball of sleaze. He wasn’t who I thought he was. i’m trying to focus on the good feelings i got out of it, not on him. Those are what i yearned for. Sick even picturing his face.
Advice, support. I need a karmic bandaid.
Swiss You are in the first stage of grieving and you need to be angry. You were duped by a disgusting excuse of a man. Once you accept he really wasn’t who you thought he was it will get easier but you need to go through the pain first. It will get better and better as long as you maintain NC I would never speak to his sorry Narcissistic ass again. I have heard his story all too often once they leave. They want a fresh start. They associate the gf with the wife. Now they have access to all those single women that wouldn’t give them the time of day because they were married. They are like kids in a candy store. They are vile, and immature. Be glad he is gone because now you can meet someone who will add value to your life.
Swissmiss, given the mess I’m in I cannot offer anything in the way of advice, except to suggest you keep reading BR, but I can send you lots of support. You are not alone and I understand how painful and sickening it all is. There is only one way up now and once you’ve processed all those feelings you will be ok. That’s what I keep telling myself and I believe it. Hugs to you.
@Swissmis you story rings so bells with me as I have gone through something similar I supported my assclown through the breakdown of his previous relationship, he future faked even to the point of telling me that he didn’t mind if I got pregnant as this is what he knew I wanted. I caught him cheating and even then he shouted and went all NC on me because he said I was paranoid and wrong for checking his phone. He made no mention of him messing with another girl.
So summarising he was with me whilst leaving his previous girlfriend, cheated with some girl he met at work while we were about to set up home.
He was barely 1 month into dumping me, he ends up hooking yet another girl, which made me even more ill because she is gorgeous and I don’t even a light to her.
So he really got his own on me.
He is all loved up and I am wreck.
Despite this, coming here to BR having the support of some incredibly honest and caring people I am trying to fix me by reading Nat’s blogs and even getting help from a psychologist as I have some serious deep rooted and disruptive tendencies.
I would recommend staying on here and follow Tinkerbell’s wise words.
Sending you much needed hugs and wishes it gets better
I just love you that’s all. It is uncanny that every time or almost that I open my inbox, I find an article that I NEED to read at that moment to confirm or reconfirm what I think and feel. And its always more! It gives me even the angles and aspects I didn’t see. For that, I say thank you.
I think sometimes we get way too involved in suggesting what others should do in their lives. Granted posting your situation is indicative of looking for answers. But we are cyber buddies. We can write from now until doomsday and we still don’t really know what to tell each other as it’s based solely on what is being told. Frankly, I am not at all surprised that the general consensus for Chronic is don’t tell the wife. One of the biggest premises of NC is that you are breaking away. Telling the wife is investing MORE time and emotion into it. I wanted the wife to know because I felt he deserved to have his cover blown, but I wanted nothing more to do with him or anybody or anything in his life MORE. I did not need to seek revenge and destruction in order to maintain NC. I did not give a F*ck what happened because I was a GONE!!! I’d spent enough time on his A$$, and really did not care if he lived or died, much less if his marriage broke up or he changed and stopped running after women. His wife knew. She did not need any details from me, and he had told me that she vaguely remembered me as we had met when I met him years prior. That was probably another one of his lies so that I would not expose him. It’s actually funny.
Lastly, everyone’s situation in an adulterous relationship is different and how we handle it, to tell the wife or not to tell is also different.
It’s not our job to browbeat our opinions into anyone’s head, as that person is going to make his/her own decision in the long run anyway. A woman who is considering exposing the MM should not need to do it to fortify her decision and/or to keep him away. She needs to deal with all that crap before going NC.
And, just because you don’t tell does not mean that you are broken-heartedly slinking away!!! I’d surmise at least 90% of wives know their husbands, are cheating and they choose to accept it, or fight endlessly over it. They may ask questions just to find out who it is. With the crime rate the way it is, I’d rather be physically safe from her, more than from him. She may be criminal, you don’t know. And you sure don’t know what is going on behind closed doors, nor is it your business. Why bother to get in the middle of the fiasco when you’re done and have flushed? More drama? Who needs it.
Swissmiss. I by no means am an expert, but I do feel pretty competent regarding the MM situation. If you wish feel free to go back over my comments on past posts. I’ve suggested self-help reading materials to help you focus on YOU and to help YOU get out of the sh*thole. Natalie’s blogs are enlightening and strengthening. Be an avid reader. And, if you’ve never done it before get a therapist. The right one can help so much. I hope you will gather up all the emotional strength, self respect and determination you can muster and not fall victim to alot of shenanigans over this. Just make a clean, permanent break so that you can make your recovery in peace and have a much better life as soon as possible.
Miss Natalie,
“When you teach you to expect that you’ll have your own back and that you’re not going to sell you down the river when given the first chance, you’ll teach others to expect that you’re to be treated with respect.”
This is the TRUTH. I have gotten so much relief lately just by reminding myself, “I don’t have to feel that way EVER again.” There’s something so gratifying about really having your own back and self-protecting in a healthy, non-fear-based way.
I actually have more experience “re-teaching” friends than romantic partners. My ex-best friend was a very, very manipulative and controlling person, under the guise of playing the victim. After I got an education about how this type of person works, and how they play just under the radar so that your gut is screaming that you’re being taken for a ride but your head is saying “But they are defenseless and just need a little TLC”, I started to distance myself from the relationship. It was a long time coming. I had had a few conversations with her over the years where I would *dare* to try to find a more healthy dynamic, maybe even hinting to her that she was coming across as controlling. Yep, all that those conversations got me were subtle (and sometimes even outright) *punishments*.
At the end, I had no choice but to distance myself from her. I was polite when I saw her, totally neutral, but I didn’t give her any fodder for her mind games, her aggression, or her gossip and betrayal of me. Would I have liked to have sat down with her as two adults and tried to explain how I was feeling in a kind, loving, and gentle way? Of course. Would I have liked to have salvaged our relationship? Well, at the end, no. Because I knew that she had no interest in changing the dynamic. She was getting all the perks, after all. And I was getting steamrolled. Like you said, Natalie, at the end of our friendship, there was no grand announcement, no pulling hair extensions, no aluminum chairs thrown around, no streaked mascara. I just went as neutral as Switzerland on her ass.
I don’t hate her. In fact, I still have love for her. But if someone would rather stubbornly stick to manipulating you to their own agenda on a daily basis, bully you to a “one-down” position, become possessive over you and alienating other friends/boyfriends, gossip behind your back about things that are blatant lies, try to sabotage your success, and just basically suck the positivity and joy right on out of you, then they aren’t interested in being your friend. They are only interested in consuming you. And those people don’t want to be re-taught. So in those cases, as you mention Nat, YOU are re-teaching YOURSELF. You are teaching yourself again (or perhaps for the first time) that you have a right to your own thoughts, your own “space” inside yourself where nobody can intervene. You teach yourself that it is normal, nay even NECESSARY, to have a solid sense of self. Once that lesson is really TRULY in place inside of yourself, you won’t need to teach others by shouting from the hilltops. You may not even have to say a word. But they will know you’re different.
Revolution,
you just described my ex-best friend too. Except doing Switzerland on her was met with viscious aggression on her part and that is when I went NC. She does know I am different for sure now. The only regrettable thing is she turned the rest of our mutual friends against me…that`s my punishment. I`m OK with that now, trying to salvage some of those friendships would mean re-engaging with all the toxic waste she spewes out, not worth it.
Hi,what is “doing Switzerland on somebody”?
ha ha, pulling back gently in a diplomatic way, without engaging in war ( drama)
“This is why people pleasing can be so destructive – it teaches people that we have no needs, wishes, and expectations and shows an inadvertent willingness to deviate from our values for their approval.”
I am a very desperate people pleaser. I am one to imagine I can blow you away with my achievements or my “amazing” character; I am actually only drawing you a road map highlighting all my weak spots. I identify to people all the effective moves that can be used against me.
This site has been so helpful! Thank you Natalie 🙂
This is about me and my Mom. I’m trying to “reteach” her what I will and will not accept.
Hello BR Readers
I have been reading with great interest the responses to Chronics post as to whether to tell the wife or not.
The different perspectives are interesting, enlightening and thought provoking. The consensus seems to be not to tell. For what its worth, here’s my tuppence halfpenny worth – from the wife’s point of view.
The ex husband became involved with an OW late last year. I twigged fairly fast something was up due to his behaviour (secretive phone calls, disappearing at the weekends). Within 4 weeks I had established he was calling a woman who was a customer in our business. So. I had her name, number, address and a fair idea of when they were meeting.
I phoned her. I was not abusive or aggressive, merely told her who I was and asked for an explanation of why there were so many calls to her number on his phone. She didn’t miss a beat. Spoke down to me in an arrogant and dismissive tone and told me I was mistaken. I immediately ended the call. I confronted the ex. He became very defensive and aggressive and denied to the hilt anything was happening.
I didn’t believe either of them and told him the relationship was over.
Nineteen days later he moved out. He continued to completely deny to me, his family and friends that there was anyone else involved. He claimed he had left because he hadn’t been happy in a long time and wanted to get on with his life.
He kept in contact with me and we would meet sporadically to talk about the children. He would become distressed and say how much he missed us. He would phone me and address me with terms of endearment. I started to doubt myself and wonder had I got it all wrong. Basically I started to get sucked back in….until – I found out he had moved into her apartment block.
Long story short, this woman rang me and told me she would ‘help’ me get my husband back. She rambled on and on and I realised that while she had been happy with the fun of flirting, secret phone calls and the odd weekend she was not happy having him living literally on her doorstep. I engaged as little as possible in the conversation but I quickly realised what she wanted was a bit of fun and what the ex wanted was another relationship to morph into.
I have been NC since the day of that call.
That woman, whether she meant it or not did me a huge favour. I realised I had been teaching the ex that he could use me for stability and home comforts, and that was all he was doing – using me. I have no idea whether they are still together or not, nor is it any of my business. But I am very glad I got that wake up call.
On a side note:
@ Lilly. So glad you have made the decision to walk completely away. I have not looked back since.
@ Jewells. One of the lines in your post struck a chord with me – “all I know is that he is where he is supposed to be”. Yup, me too.
@ Tinkerbell, have taken on board your comments about disassociating and its working a treat!
Tinkerbell, and everyone:
I did not mean to look down my nose at anyone–just stated that I was grateful I’ve never gotten involved w/a MM is all. It’s a boundary that was instilled in me pretty young and it just stuck. I’m certain Ive made other mistakes that many of you have avoided so I’m not here to judge anyone and I try to encourage all. Just reading about the intense misery that ensues from getting involved with MM is pretty intense and maybe I came across wrong and for that I apologize. In re-teaching others, we need to re define whatit is we really want and deserve and in my 53 years, Ive yet to meet someone who got involved with a MM and had it bring longterm happiness. Fleeting happiness, maybe–but just not worth the pain in my humble opinion. And Revolution, you are right on, no you dont have to shout it from the hilltops, you’re just different.
Hi Mymble
I really feel and sympathize with your frustration. Is there any way you can get him to move on? Or is he just staying in order to make things awkward for you? This must also be hard on the kids.
I don’t have quite the same problem but still I am not feeling good about my situation.
Being married so long and being too over-connected – it is difficult to deconstruct things. For me a lot of it is financial and a lot is that I am working very hard so I don’t want to destabilize myself emotionally more than I have been in the last 6 months. (He really screwed me over last May and I was really upset for months). I just simply can’t bear to put too much on myself right now but I must keep moving forward.
I have real financial worries – this was a huge issue in our marriage with me always worrying about money and being concerned about our work and feeling he was such a people pleaser he wouldn’t step up to the plate I worked for every penny in savings and feel I spilled blood for it. The idea that I should live on the edge for the rest of my life bothers me. I feel I really tried with this marriage and did everything I could to make it work. Part of it is that I am older and although I still work full time the area I work in is quite specialized and won’t last forever – maybe a few more years. I need to take care of myself financially . We are also involved in a few joint projects – that seems to be “okay”. But even spending a lot of time with him in a work situation is difficult for me. I just KNOW that bad things emotionally will happen again – he will bust my boundaries and I just can’t bear reliving that pain. Somehow this is something that I have to work on. I haven’t figured it all out either in terms of MY own self growth – like why I am still engaging in unhealthy patterns.
So I feel I am trying to be careful and juggle these balls in the air. He isn’t taking any action at all although he “talks” about it (naturally) and is leaving it all up to me, deciding when to sell the house, tell the kids the whole story (they know part) how to tell the kids, blah blah blah. He wanted to send them a joint email – can you believe it? He would never ever end it so I just have to keep pushing the agenda forward. (just like everything else in our marriage and with our business). So I need to arrange for a house evaluation, handle the kids emotions, figure out a way to handle my emotions, figure out how I will be safe emotionally, handle all my work obligations which are HUGE right now and TRY TO BUILD A NEW LIFE FOR MYSELF AT THE SAME TIME, go to the gym so I don’t fall apart and all this…while feeling sometimes like I am just SO alone in all this (as well as being exhausted). I don’t think many people will “get” this because I haven’t complained except to a few very very close friends. I was so GOOD at sucking up my emotional pain. You have no idea how many people are “invested” in the long-term “happy couple” scenario.
Even my therapist is bugging me with her insistence that when the children know the whole picture they won’t freak out as much as I think. I KNOW my kids just won’t get it, some could be quite vindictive towards me (they won’t believe for a second that it was our “joint” decision because they know he doesn’t MAKE decisions) and I do NOT want to push in any way for them to take sides or to be blaming of my ex. This is why I can really understand others on this site who are in situations that aren’t ideal but need to stay in communities because of finances, houses and jobs. Arg. I think I need to breathe.
As I an doing NC, day number 16 and feel so good, I may never know if I have retaught him how to treat me , but I sure as hell am teaching ME. It feels so good and like coming out of a dream. Why didn’t I pull the plug before????
Allison, each to their own on what they decide is right for them in these situations. I understand that what is right for one person may not be for another.
Personally, I’m a no BS kinda person. If I’d made the mistake of having an affair with a MM, & now realised it, & felt that the wife needed to know for my own sanity so as to forever close that door for MYSELF as well as to ultimately in the end, feel I had done the right thing by at least letting the wife know, as I knew I would want to, I would have no issues at all with disclosing to the wife. That’s me though, & when I call time on BS I don’t mess around. Others may have all sorts of reasons & justifications for not making that call. Some may be valid, others not. Each to their own & that’s ok. Whatever path a person chooses they will no doubt ultimately learn from it, & life is, after all, a learning journey.
To my mind though, just b.c the OW has done the wrong thing by the wife in the first place, does not mean that the OW ought to again (in my opinion only) do the wrong thing by not having the decency to at least let the wife know what she is dealing with.
I live my life by the motto of doing my best to treat others as I would like to be treated & I would DEFINATELY want to know. Hence, to my mind, it is never too late to start living by ones values & honesty & full disclosure in the case of affairs is, I believe, an action which is generally speaking (ie there are always exceptions & someone in a fragile state of mind with very good reason for this, might be for example), for the highest good of all concerned, in the long run.
Notwithstanding the exceptions, (which may be for mental health, career damage fallout or safety type reasons – I’m.not about the children issue as a reason, their age I think comes into play here), I think disclosure to the wife is in the best interests of the OW as it empowers her to close that door permanently. Similarly, I believe that although likely to be pain inducing, it also is beneficial for the wife as it gives her the information she needs to make her own decisions & choices in full knowledge of the facts. Finally, I believe it is good for the MM as it facilitates him experiencing consequences for his behaviour, by which hopefully, he will learn to be a better man (business which is then strictly b.tween him & his wife).
Affairs THRIVE & can only survive in the secrecy with which they are shrouded. Whilst that secrecy remains, there is always a possibility that in a moment of vulnerability, they will be reignited, no matter how many years pass. I personally would, not want a MM continuing to pester me years later, as some do to their OW, after the OW has moved on. Telling the wife has the added bonus of lessening the likelihood of this occurring.
Teachable,
Sorry, I think I may have not been clear.
I agree that the wife has the right to know. If my spouse were cheating on me, I would want to know – cheating is a deal breaker, as I have seen the damage done to friends. My friends returned to the assholes, but will never trust again. I would end the relationship.
My issue is when the OW is portrayed as a victim. Choosing to get involved with a MM is an active choice. I don’t care about self-esteem or difficult times, it is wrong. There is no excuse. Then the asshole ex MM is suddenly demonized – cheater, liar, manipulative etc… – where were this characteristics while the affair was active? Im sorry, but I view this as removing the responsibility for getting involved with the creep. Without the OW, the affair would not have happened. What can one expect when you get involved with someone is involved with another.
I won’t contribute how damaging I feel this is to the children.
For all the ladies that have removed yourself from these destructive situations, thank God! You deserve so much better for yourselves!
ps I would just like to add I only posted on this topic as chronic specifically requested input on it.
Chronic it this a big decision & I think discussing it with a therapist would be a very sound idea before doing anything either way. 🙂
Lilly, same for you love. Ideas I’ve posted here are ‘food for thought’ for you only. In your case DO NOT do anything without strong support from your therapist, as what might be right for me in your situation may not be right for you, as we are two very diff ppl & I think just letting go of this MM & dealing with the loss of yr baby is more than enough for you to be coping with at this stage. Also, you WOULDN’T want to add to your woes if reporting yr MM to the university was going to create problems for you at work/ or with yr studies, as well it might (I don’t know anywhere near enough to say if it would or not). Your therapist can explore a whole range of options for helping you move forward & to cope though. They will be your best guide & it may simply be that you know that option is available to you in future, if you felt it would benefit you in some way. It may not, especially now though, so tread carefully & be gentle with yourself. You’re doing great so far! x
Jennifer
My dad is the king of effing passive aggressive behavior. I cannot cut contact as I own the home he lives in and I am his caretaker of sorts. Once I recognized his behavior for what it was (when quite young) I would simply walk away (gave him my back). He and his then third wife were really shocked when I bailed one xmas after having driven some 90of miles to see them
Wretched phone. I meant to say I bailed on a major holiday with the only folk that gave a flying eff about me rather than put up with passive aggressive crap.
This kind of thing demands drastic measures. Now I am learning to harden my heart against other sorts of crap behavior even if doing so means I die alone or shoot myself, or go visit the big kitties in da woods. We. Are. Worth. So. GD. More. than being forced to tolerate crap behavior and crap men.
Wise Ol Owl. Glad that you are not looking down your nose at anyone’s trials and tribulations. That would be so wrong and unacceptable. Most of us are opening up and revealing innermost experiences and accompanying thoughts that we would not tell our closest friend. BR has been a true safe haven where most of us came come and unburden ourselves and feel safe. That is a beautiful thing and we are all so fortunate to be here. I, myself, have been posting for awhile and I’ve reflected (after your comments) on my past even moreso which has been evident is my recent frequent and wordy posts. I’m going through a very poignant time as my BF and I will be really playing house for the second time in our relationship. It is one thing to talk unendingly and see each other frequently but living together is the real nitty gritty. We are sooo compatible and I just cannot bring myself to stop expecting the other foot to drop.
In conclusion, I will say this: engaging in adultery with a MM who is even still very much living with his wife. Is the Worst, as I said before and gave my reasons for firmly believing that. I’m happy for you never having experienced such. I only feel that one never knows. We are all here because we’ve had relationship problems be they with a husband, BF, AC, EUM ad infinitum.
So we should just be supportive or don’t post at all. Email is not the best form of communication but it is what it is and we must make the beat of it. Thank you for your input. I will be taking a brief break since I will be well engaged as explained above. Good luck, and keep strong. Tink
Respecfully DQ I disagree with you on what is & isn’t an OW’a business. Anything she feels she is appropriate (so long as it is respectful) to close the door on an affair for good, IS her business. Not all OW would feel this neccessary. Some might though & I think that is perfectly legitimate for those women.
Diff things work for diff ppl. It is not my place to tell any oerson what will or wont work for them (unless input has been requested). Even then, I make suggestions only for it is not I who lives with the ramifications of decisions made, but the person themselves. I am always very mindful of this.
If you read back you will see that in my initial posting to Lilly I said that *I* would report an inappropriate relationship being presented to me by (a teacher, academic supervisor, whatever) IF there were rules or laws against this (meanimg the teacher/ supervisor had acted inappropriately & I mentioned this in the context of not only not protecting someone ie ME I would therefore see as possibly a predator but also out concern they may present a similar risk to other students).
Lilly HERSELF mentioned something about options of reporting her situation to the university, NOT me. I was just RESPONDING to that train of thought & if you read further, I was careful to caution the risks doing so might present.
People have all sorts of options in situations where an abuse of power has occurred. I have a doctor friend who successfully sued a supervising Dr for sexually abusing her (he was married & she was a junior Dr, & very troubled at the time). I have another friend whose son was the patient of a Dr who inappropriately enticed her in a sexual relationship & reported him to the medical board where he was disciplined.
I don’t know if Lilly’s situation is an abuse of power or not & I don’t need to know (ie I’m unclear as to who exactly the MM is, ie is her teacher or supervisor of some sort, or is he her boss? The two have very different implications. I would never suggest reporting such a thing re someone’s BOSS as if you read back I again mention possible career fallout as an exception for NOT informing a third party, ie the wife in these situations, for example)
The appropriate person to explore the many options in such situations with, I believe, is a professional therapist, which is in fact exactly what I suggested.
Thankyou for sharing yr thoughts. You might want to scroll back & read ALL of my posts where I believe u will see that yr premise re Lilly at least, is quite unfounded. Apologies, if I was not clear enough in what I wrote for that to be understood from the outset. I hope it is clear now.
PS If I had fallen into an OW sitch w my BOSS, personally, I would just leave my job & start over elsewhere, but that is me (& yes I HAVE left a job in the past out of need to remove muself from exposure to an ex) as I would not want to air the ‘affair issue’ in career circles.
Others though might do differently. Some might even see such a situation as an extreme form of sexual harrassment. It is possible if the power differential is big enough, & say a woman vulnerable enough to be preyed upon in such a way. It all just depends. That’s what I mean, each person’s situation is different & how they handle it will be different & that is totally ok (at least in my view).
Hi Lilly. Glad u are still reading & hanging in there. I got yr hug & really needed it, so thankyou. x
Re ur MM, the fact that he has intimidated you in such a way suggests there are definately SCAREY sounding safety issues for you in disclosing anything to anyone other than those on yr team, so I definately wouldn’t suggest such a thing to someone in yr situation yet, or mayb even ever, (I will explain the latter in a moment). We already know yr MM is emotionally abusive. The extent of that has been horriffic. Who knows, given yr last comment, what he is capable of? Hopefully he’s just talking out of his ass to keep you from spilling the beans, but given his track record, you need to put safety FIRST & protect yrself. If yr SCARED of him there’s a REASON for tht. Trust yr gut on tht & ZIP IT (for now at least, if he’s yr boss maybe forever, if yr teacher, maybe not, just wait & see how things oan out).
Must say I boiled with anger when I saw how frightened he has got you (with very good reason no doubt) though. These creeps! UGH!!!!!
I can only share my exp & it is somewhat different to yrs, so by all means take what may help from it & leave the rest.
When my unborn baby was murdered in utero, I was TERRIFIED of telling the police, or the Drs\nurses what caused my ‘spontaneous miscarriage’. It was a particularly viscious violent assault with kicks & punches raining down on my PREGNANT belly by the baby’s father. (Phew. Hard to post abt this – I NEVER talk abt it IRL, other than w my therapist as but I will NOW bc I want you to remember my message, in the bk of yr mind, in case it ever helps u in some small way down the track).
I was too scared to also tell anyone abt the fact that I had been violently raped by this man 3 times, during the prenancy also. I couldn’t TELL anyone b.c I wasn’t SAFE from him yet. He made me feel like I DESERVED it. I feared no-one would believe me, so the only person I ever told was my therapist.
TWENTY SIX YEARS LATER ie 2 yrs ago, this creep attempted to track me down. By now I WAS safe to disclose. I knew what he’d done was wrong & it was even MORE wrong b.c I was an underage teen at the time & he was an ADULT. It had taken YEARS of therapy for me to finally come to grips with this & to realise, I had NOTHING to be ashamed of.
This time, I went to the POLICE, made a full statement & began the arduous task of taking a historical sex abuse case through the courts. (This is a diff sitch to the financial-health crisis/battle I’ve posted abt recently which I am similtaneously fighting). In hindsight, I WISH I’d had the wherewithall to take this action at the time, as my legal battle is now much more difficult, due to my delay. I could not though. It took what it took, & for me tht was 26 yrs. I have forgiven myself as I know how hard I’ve fought every single one of those yrs, just to survive. I’ve done ok, but like everyone who exp’s such things, I bear the scars. It is not without good reason, I need to own my own home outright before feeling ready to trust a man for a lifelong comittment. I NEED tht home to escape to just in case it all goes horribly wrong, so I have a place to land, which is SAFE where no-one can hurt me.
I share this only IF yr MM was a teacher or supervisor of some sort, & not SUPPOSED to do what he did & IF there are laws or regulations meaning HE could get into trouble for it (not YOU), then just keep that option tucked away in the back of yr mind for down the track, maybe one day if or when you ever are safe enough to exercise it. You may decide NEVER to do so & that is OK. In fact I’d understand, as much as anyone, if you didn’t or don’t. There is no judgement. Only kindness & compassion here from me to you. FWIW though, if you had told me 26 yrs years ago tht I would be doing what I am now doing (2 years already & still the legal case rages on, sigh), I’d have said NO WAY too. ie I was that TERRIFIED of the in my sitch, that I would have resolutely dismissed any such suggestion.
Also, IF I am barking up the wrong tree & yr MM doesn’t fit the ‘abuse of power’ / disobeyed some sort of law or rules situation I’m trying to get accross, then of course, my sincere apologies & disregard ALL I’ve said. If he DOES fit that catagory though, please always remember me Lilly & remember my story. It IS possible to hold abusers to account, just sometimes, not until we are READY & it is safe to do so & sometimes, that can take a LOOOONG time.
Nothing about yr CURRENT sitch sounds safe except for all the wonderful work you’ve done in cutting off contact with the MM & seeking help from a therapist. Keep on that track Lilly.
Much love, support & power toyou. xxx
(sheesh. teary now. normal I’m sure)
Teachable, what happened to you and your baby is truly, truly horrific and I am so sorry. You were a child yourself. I will be hoping and praying that you get the justice you deserve. You have been through so much, but you are a fighter and even though the legal system takes such a long time I have no doubt you will see it through. My situation pales into comparison with what you have endured and if you can get through it then so can I.
As for the exMM he was in a position of authority as my thesis supervisor, but I am an adult and I cannot use this to excuse my own responsibility.I fell in love (infatuation?) with a well-respected(!),extremely intelligent, leader in his field, married professor. I was vulnerable at the time, and no doubt he saw that, but ultimately it was my own undoing. I’m definitely going to trust my gut on this one and leave well alone. He frightens me because he is so cruel and lacks empathy. I will, however, keep all the emails. As Dancingqueen says if need be I could use them if he attempts to sabotage me.
Take good care of yourself teachable. What happened to you and your little baby makes me cry, but your courage in the face of that terrible abuse is inspiring. Hugs to you.
Lilly, from your posts I perceive you have turned a corner. You want to put this nightmare behind you.
Hopefully, the therapist will facilitate this. In time you will emotionally heal with our BR support. There is a universal theme that men (mostly) in power
situations take advantage of the unknowing and trusting. The priest
takes advantage of the altar boy,
the President takes advantage of Monica, the math professor takes advantage of a student…etc. I know that emotionally, when you are 70 yrs old and look back to the worst era of your life, you’ll say, that was a time I suffered and went on to find myself. My concern is your career
and financial security. You’ve got a therapist and us for your heartmending. Perhaps you need to talk to a lawyer about future repercussions with your career. Tell a lawyer your story and see if you need legal advice as well.
Simple pleasures, it’s true I really believe I have turned a corner. Leaving me stranded finally did it. I’m now fully putting my trust in the process and I will not be contacting him on a personal level again. I have almost tied up the loose ends work wise (all via post; no email, no skype, no phone). We are in the process of some new research, but it is the beginning. I have done a fair bit of work on it already, but he can have it. This week I start at my new university and hopefully, it will be a new beginning for me. Somehow, I’m going to try and adapt my area of interest to avoid any more connection with him. Others, including my therapist and Sadder but Wiser also suggested a lawyer and I agree with you. Just in case I will make an appointment.
On an emotional level I think I’m unstable! I’m scared and still in pain. The damage and fall-out from this affair has been extensive, emotionally and physically, and if I’m truly honest I still want to crawl up into a little ball and quit. I will take one day at a time. Each day is one more day between him and me. Thank you for your ongoing support, one of these days I will give back.
Teachable,
How horrible!!!! I’m sorry, you’re going through this, but thankfully you have the option of pursuing this action. You must in the UK?
You’re very brave!!!!!!!!
Thankyou for helping me to understanf yr situation better Lilly. Keeping the MM’s emails sounds very wise. He sounds like malignant narc, possibly also a psychopath? That is VERY concerning. I get a much better idea of this MM, his position re you, & his personality are now. You are wise to stay well away. He sounds dangerous.
RE My sitch, I know it’s different & I don’t know what the rules are re academic supervisors having relations with students. ie who might possibly get into trouble (if anyone) & what the consequences mught be for either party.
I get that you were an adult & willingly participated in having the affair. Still, keep what I said tucked away in the back of yr mind. Sometines our thoughts can change as the years go by. x
Allison,
I don’t say anything abt an OW revealing her own dishonest action to a wife in these situations as anything to do with the OW claiming victim stutus. That did not even enter my head. Please re-read my posts to see what I did say, if you feel you would like to (or not. Soz, too drained here to repeat myself).
FWIW I agree the victim of an affair is primarily the unknowing wife, kids etc. Nothing abt informing the innocent party ought to have anything at all to do with claiming victim status. On the contrary, it ought to be a very remorseful tone where the OW takes full responsibility for her behaviour.
K once did a FANTASTIC post on this though & given you mention it, OW’s can in fact also be victins on these situations. Not knowing a guy was taken already due to be deliberately being misled into thinking the guy was single is an example & a ruse some ‘taken’ (not neccessarily married) guys DO pull (This actually happened to me w my deceased ex AC, the MINUTE I discovered the TRUTH I went totally ballistic at him & NEVER spoke to him again).
Re Who is responsible for the affair having occurred I don’t agree it is all the faukt of the OW. Both parties are equally responsible (except in cases of extenuating circumstances where the cheating spouse bears most if not all responsibility ie clear abuse of power in prohibited situations or the OW not even knowing there is another party involved).
Chrystalis THANKYOU. As a wife informed by an OW, yr reaction to this underlines & provides some evidence for what is my view (all be it in the minority) on this. I accept that others have different views & am ok with that. None of us is right of wrong per se, our views are just different that’s all. I believe allowance of diversity of opinion is important. I call this having respect for others views, even though they may differ from my own. I’m down with that. ESP on this issue. 😉
Teach,
I was making a general statement. The victim bit was not directed at you, but others who have claimed victim-status.
I too, agree that if a woman did not know that the guy was involved, it was no fault of her own- can’t imagine such a deception, and certainly can’t imagine sticking with him. My issue, is choosing to get involved with someone, when you know he is unavailable.
We are our own worst enemies!
PS I did not have an ‘affair’ as such w my now deceased ex AC. He WAS single (I think?) but living interstate at the time so his deception was easy to run on me. I actually saw the other party as the OW, although, once my suspicions were aroused & contacted her to introduce myself, I think she saw me as the same. We compared notes & realised we’d both been played. I left him & her to it. Don’t know what happened exactly after that but through his sis, from what I pieced together when he died soon after I was gather she sent him packing. Good for her. Exactly as I did too!
After falling madly in love with the most gorgeous, sexy and intelligent MM it took me several years to get over him. I cried a river of tears but I did come out the other end finally.
I was in it boots and all (the chemstry was off the charts and I also understand that trap now) and I didn’t give a s*it about his long suffering wife or kids.
I broke it off with him when I realised exactly what I was doing to myself, crumbs from a cheating man and a totally go nowhere situation. He was never going to leave his wife – never!
My number one boundary from then on has been no married or seperated men – no exceptions ever to this rule.
I don’t care how attractive, sexy or smart they are ladies, make yourself a promise to never get involved with a married man, that includes seperated men too – they are still married. Tell them to look you up when the ink is dry on the divorce papers as you wave them goodbye.
You are all far too good to accept crumbs and to be disrespecting yourselves to go there.
Allison-you made my point better than I did so thanks. As a side note; If the OW is going to admit to the wife the affair, I would only hope she admits her role in it as well. There are the instances where the woman doesn’t know he’s married because these “types” lie. But, if you did know, then at least take responsiblity and apologize. Please don’t keep repeatinggetting involved with MM or MW and telling us how bad it went. If women didn’t do this to other women, we’d all have better relationships…so just know that.And, if you didn’t know in the beginning, then knew–but already fell head over heels, well–admit that too. I mean, I don’t know what other’s motives are for being on BR, mine are to improve self and break repetitive, damaging habits with men. Natalie, you have the patience of Job in dealing with the same problems over & over and your articles spell it out real clearly: value self, if you are not getting what you need, it’s not love, etc. etc. etc. I, too, have seen what it does to the kids and it’s just devastating. It’s been said, you never know–and you MAY get involved w/a married man. I beg to differ, I NEVER would. Now, granted, Im older that a lot of commentators, but you need to have boundaries and without those, any relationship is bound to fail. A MM has ill intent from the get-go, your best interest is never at heart, his is–he has the best of both worlds and you are secondary.
Wise,
Well put!!
I understand Allison. Unfortunately, believe me, there ARE cretins out there who masquerade as SINGLE & deliberately lead partners to think this, when all the while, the are not. Despicable behaviour!
Some I suspect, some end up becoming an OW just like this, by not having the strength of charactar to FLUSH, when they eventually discover the truth (which can take quite some time to emerge). I was just very fortunate not to be one of those women. I don’t know why, but there was no way in HELL I was going to allow such BS. Rest assured, he experienced my wrath (& rightly so).
Teach,
Yes! That is the sleaziest of all!!
I’m glad you gave him what was coming.
I now realize with the ex, I taught him how to treat me, that I’d always be around, that I’d say yes to everything for fear he’d leave. I was so hooked I’d have stayed through near anything. Until I found BR and high tailed it out of there.
Also, it’s important to be mindful of this in the beginning of relationships. It’s harder to implement boundaries after you’ve just about let them trample on every one of yours. I find that though uncomfortable, it’s integral to the overall health, development and care of your relationship, whether with friends, family or a romantic partner or possible interest. I have trouble with this because I desperately fear loss of love. I equate saying no with a terrible loss. I experienced quite a few tough losses as a child and I never fully quire recovered. I fear if I say no as an adult, the opportunity will be gone and I will be forever alone with no prospects of love or opportunities to love. It’s a terrible mess. It ends with me being a people pleaser, feeling terribly overwhelmed and stuck, then I disappear effectively sabotaging the relationship and selling out to yet another self fulfilling prophecy. My subconscious is trying to kill my happiness. But…I am in therapy, trying to reprogram it with BR, hypnosis, journaling, affirmations, reading and new found spirituality. What a journey! I can be rather impatient. I’ve been working on this for all about a year and I get so impatient because I want change NOW. Impatience is one of the problems that got me into this mess. I didn’t want to wait around for a better man when I spotted my ex was dodgy. I didn’t want to let go and do the work all over again of getting to know somebody, much less a man. (truth is I didn’t really get to know the ex, nor he I, but I did see plenty of red flags, one right after another, and I stayed, high on the lies and the dreams of taming/changing this asshole). Truth is I’m real attracted to ‘bad boys’ I feel I shouldn’t but it is changing. I recently had a friend point out a classic bad boy she was attracted to. Came complete with leather jacket and everything. I saw him as a joke and real dumb like. Not an ounce of emotional intelligence. I don’t think I could stomach being around a guy like that for 5 seconds. There are plenty of handsome, decent, good charactered guys out there. The trick is changing yourself enough to be attracted to them. Loving yourself enough that is…
Peanut,
There will come a time, when you will be completely turned off by these guys. You will recognize there methods and see them for who they are.
I used to be attracted to the smooth guys who seemed a bit too comfortable and confident upon the first meeting. Today, I am repulsed by them and see them for the players they are.
These types are toxic and an enormous waste if time!
Allison,
I cannot wait for the day when these types of men have zero effect on me! I that is the only outcome of all this BR work, (I don’t think it will be), I will be ecstatic.
Literally, these types of smooth talkers/charmers have had me jumping out of my skin with longing since I was an adolescent. And it has proven nothing but destructive. My formula goes decent looking, arrogant charm, huge womanizer=I’m game and they own me. It’s taken such a sizable amount of work to get over this, but I think it’s working. I am not totally over the bad guy craving hump, but I have noticed being a bit more neutral or even completely neutral in regards to several men whom I would have just swooned over. I see them as totally unattractive because it is clear they lack character. And character trumps a leather jacket, tight jeans, smooth and charming, etc. Really these guys just appear kind of ridiculous and to think I used to fall for IT ALL!
I have decide against telling her, although I have resolved that should she ever come to me again (as she has done in the past, and ironically, I referred her back to him because I thought it was his place to tell her the truth, not mine), I would level with her. Instead, I told him I was through and told him why, without mincing any words. I suspect his own bruised ego will keep him from ever contacting me again. I have deleted him from my contacts, my phone, my life. This time, there will be no turning back. And yes, take-away lessen, no married men, no separated men, no buying into the bullshit once uncovered. Perhaps a no duh issue for some of you, but some of us do have learn the hard way and it is never as clear, when you are in the middle of it, as it is at the end. We all have lessons to learn, and reserving judgment is always the better part of valor…
Chroniclyacute,
It truly has been a hard and painful lesson to learn and I will NEVER again put myself in such harm’s way. Top of my list, no MM. I’ve also “properly” deleted him from my life; phone, skype, email and no more working together. I’ve had to sacrifice some work, but it had to be done. The only thing I cannot do is change my address, but I would if I could. As you say this time there will be no turning back. Good luck to you and here’s to no more bullshit.
Lilly, I am so thrilled (as I know everyone else is) to hear that you are no longer working with him!! That’s a huge hurdle and whatever you’ve had to sacrifice in terms of work will absolutely be worth it. I always say prayers for all the people on this site, but I’ve said a special prayer for you lately. We are all walking on the path with you, a step or two behind so if you are tempted to turn back, you’ll find us a formidable barrier to get past! 🙂
Sadder but Wiser, I have been working non-stop, but I’ve just finished tying up all the loose ends and I’ve made sure there are no loop holes. I’m done, but I wish it didn’t hurt so much. Tomorrow I start at my new university. It will mean that I will have to get up in the mornings and not go back to bed, talk to new people and start building a life for myself again. I looked in the mirror today and it was awful, I’m thin and haggard and my eyes look dead. If I went back it would be suicide so I’m staying right on that path. I keep telling myself I can do this so tomorrow I will make myself look as nice as I can and start again. Thank you so much for your special prayer it made me cry in a good way.
Lilly,
Congratulations on taking all these steps to taking care of yourself. You are so strong. You are an inspiration to me. Onwards.
Chronic, congrats, you’ve made a good decision. I think the only redeeming quality in my situation is that I forced him to be the one to own up. I did state it to him in that way – “if you want any hope of saving your marriage, it better be YOU that tells her”. I didn’t think about what I was saying at the moment it all burst forth, but ultimately it was for the best all round. He had to finally begin behaving with integrity, she had the playing field levelled and empowered her to make informed choices in their relationship, they wound up in counselling to potentially make their relationship work and I became free to work out what I needed to do to make my life happier without being tied into an unhealthy dynamic. It’s amazing to look back at it, I didn’t think about what I was saying, I just blurted what needed to be said at the moment. It didn’t heal me, and I’m under no illusion that it healed either of them or their marriage, but it did set everyone in the right direction to find healing if they choose to step up to it. I am stepping into mine. I choose me.
You did the right thing. I had those moments but did not seize them. Wish I had. A bit late now, and nobody’s fault but my own. But never too late to choose myself..
I have the issue of enforcing boundaries and then people saying that they were just kidding or joking with their behaviour. For example I have a male friend who is always insulting me. Yesterday he said my ex dated me because he was “into plain jane girls” like me, then today he made a comment about me having wrinkles on a photo I posted online. He thinks he is being funny when he does this, but it hurts me. When I say something he says I can’t take a joke. This guy is really objectively speaking not a piece of art work but he is continually insulting good looking women we see in the street. Why does he do this? What should I say when he insults me? BTW I definitely do not like this guy romantically at all.
Lavender, never mind romantically, but why do you like this guy at all? You describe him as a friend. I beg to differ. I would not dream of making such nasty comments to someone I cared about, especially if I knew it upset them. Would you? If not, then why tolerate it from this idiot? NC/Flush/isn’t just for the ACs we have entangled ourselves with emotionally.
This is not funny, this is cruel and insulting. Friends do not act like this. I have male friends who I’ve known for 30 years who have never insulted me. Sometimes genuine friends can have a bad moment and say something unfortunate, but then they apologize later. They don’t turn it back on you and make you doubt your own reactions.
The question is why do you want a clod like this in your life?
Thanks Victorious and Sadder and Wiser. The guy is a very old friend who I have known since childhood, so I feel bad blocking him out and he is also friends with my best friends. He makes these comments all the time those are just two examples. I feel like he has a real snideness about him and I don’t know why cause he tells me he thinks of me as a really close good friend.
Lavender
It does feel very strange standing up for yourself and saying “No More” when you have got into the habit of putting up with it. You may surprise yourself, once it’s done, how quickly the discomfort subsides. He is malicious, no doubt about it, he isn’t a friend. Focus on making new friends – as in “friend” friends, who are friendly.
IMHO he is playing you the ‘my bestest friend’ card as a means to keep you in his life because you take his crap. You may call him on it on occasion by telling him that it hurts you, but if he turns around and tells you that you’re too sensitive (or whatever) and you don’t throw THAT one in his face or walk away, then you’ve still taught him that it’s ok to treat you this way. Next time this ditch pig makes a nasty comment tell him he is in no uncertain terms, and if he tries to turn it on you again…walk away and go NC!!!
Lavender,
They’re bullies!
This guy is not your friend and gets satisfaction by making you feel insecure.
Time to end the “friendship.”
Allison, you’re right. I think I just figured that in his mind he thought he was joking and that I should take it on the chin.
Lav, you’re not wrong, in his head he IS just joking and you should take it on the chin – but his head is full of it. It’s the actions, which is his heart that’s mean spirited and closed and therefore not a friend. He’s delusional, and he’s evil. Leave him to his pile o shite playing by himself… NC (or Switzerland) his no good ass! (I believe I’m being Teach influenced…tee hee)
Tell him his d*ck is too small. That usually does the trick. It doesn’t matter if you’ve never seen it. :-p
Lavender,
This guy is NOT your friend. When we engage with people and they say ‘jokes’ that hurt us, we tell them and they continue to say these things, it is straight up emotional abuse. Nothing less.
I had a ‘friend’ who was like that with me he’d say things like “The sun on your hair and face makes you look really….ugly.” I know he was being sarcastic but it is still inappropriate. Friends don’t use humor to cut each other, only mean people do. It screams “I can’t emotionally relate, all I can do is berate, so that’s what I do!”
It’s not pretty, as I have no doubt you are. These ‘friends’ often times will relegate their meanest behavior to the most ridiculous of sources. Case in point: mean friend gives pretty girl a hard time.
It’s not fair, right, or on any level okay. I tell my friends they are beautiful because I mean it and am not afraid to say it. We all deserve that.
Also, my ex would do *Exactly* the behavior you described of your friend to me. And be careful. It will effect your self esteem. I mean to hear that consistently over a period of time, would anyone’s. It’s not okay.
I broke up with the ex and initiated no contact. I cut all contact with the ‘friend’ defriending him from facebook and all. He deserved it.
Also, you have a RIGHT to tell your ‘friend’ you don’t like his behavior. I personally think it sounds as if he detracts from your life and doesn’t deserve your friendship, as he is unable to relate on a friend level without behaving like a mean spirited adolescent.
Thank you so much Peanut, what a great response. I really appreciate it.
Awh, you are very welcome 🙂
Peanut, I wish there was a “Like” button for this! Yes, “behaving like a mean spirited adolescent” is nothing we need from anyone in our lives. Often, calling someone out on this BS is followed by a “You’re too sensitive. I’m just kidding” Never, ever let anyone get away with invalidating your feelings as a “defense” of their poor behavior either!
Sad but true. Some men can hide their true relationship status for years. AC had a secret involvement in the city down the hill. As he ostensibly had rental property there, it made perfect sense that he’d be there on weekends when schools not in session. He’d also been pulling this shite long before my time, when he was married. When the truth became known, I called him on his behavior and have been as NC with a colleague as one can get. I am not sure if it was due to my situation, or previous victims, but others in our circle warn all new female colleagues about him. Over the past year, he has become persona non grata and has to seek fresh victims elsewhere.
To chronic; great job! Yep, if the wife wants info, fine but otherwise don’t volunteer anything. MM may come sniffing around once his lil ego heals, so stay strong, eh?
Yep, my old boss was a Bigamist. Seriously. Smooth, great looking, charming, wonderful job. BIGAMIST! Men get away with all kinds of shit because we want to trust them. Very few female bigamists. Just sayin’.
Victorious,
I agree men get away with way too much. Even my therapist says things now and I’m like, “Hold up? What?” Like about men not being able to attach like women or be as emotional or how they can so easily cheat because they compartmentalize. These generalizations about ALL men make it far too easy for Unavailables to get on with what they do, sit in therapy to appease the ladies and carry on in their merry way. I love Natalie’s approach so much. She holds both sexes accountable and equally and doesn’t group healthy, available men in with unhealthy unavailable ones, thus creating the myths that are out there about how all men are emotionally incapable/distant blah blah blah. Whew. What a rant. Just had a light bulb go off when I read, “Men get away with all kinds of shit because we want to trust them.” Yep. I agree. They get away with shit because we want to trust them and they get away with shit because we are made to believe we are foolish for fully trusting them or placing even just half decent expectations on them!
“sit in therapy to appease the ladies and carry on in their merry way” lightbulb moment indeed.
MM was in daily email contact with me the entire time he was undergoing marital counseling. You know, to “dot the i’s and cross the t’s,” make the wife feel he had given her a chance before finally leaving her for good. Do the right thing. What a guy, giving her a chance! Whilst staying in touch with OW on a daily basis, and somehow that is ok since we are not actually seeing each other! Keeping us both on the hook so he has the luxury of keeping his options open whilst he focusses on his career and his hobbies. Talk about compartmentalisation. I know, I should have just refused to engage, but I allowed it, indeed I invited it. But the view can be quite murky from the compartment, as that compartment is all you see. It takes a while to take in the big picture, let go of denial, and set yourself free. That is what stopped me from telling her, she must reach this point herself and until she gets there nothing will disuade her that her compartment in not the whole picture. None of which is my business, and I am over the hubris of deciding what is best for anyone but myself. So many points where I could have and should have made a different decision, but the first step to breaking a destructive pattern is recognizing that it exists. And stop fully trusting someone who has demonstrated over and over and over again, with his conduct toward both me and his wife, that he simply cannot be trusted.
Chroniclyaccute,
I know, if I had a dime for every dollar these men waste on ‘therapy’ I wouldn’t be a poor college student! Kudos to you for seeing through the bs!