I get asked a lot of questions about boundaries, which are basically your personal electric fence that let you define what you’re prepared to accept and more importantly, define your limits. If you have ever experienced a painful relationship where you have put up with things that in retrospect have you wondering why on earth you would put up with it, it’s because there were boundary issues – you may have had them, but you didn’t assert them. If you have friends, family, colleagues or lovers habitually take advantage of you, it’s because they are crossing boundaries that you haven’t put up.
A fundamental part of the problems experienced in many relationships with low self-esteem and poor relationship habits is having a lack of boundaries.
Why don’t people have boundaries? For lots of reasons but mostly down to being afraid of the consequences of having them, ie they won’t be accepted, liked or will experience confrontation, and because many of us are obsessed with being The Good Girl/The Good Guy, and particularly in relationships, people have very skewed ideas about ‘unconditional love’ which they think is loving without limits.
If you have started putting boundaries in your life, you may have experienced some uncomfortable side effects such as friends or family having their noses out of joint or a lover being confused at your lack of compliance.
Where problems start to occur is if you go all gung ho with your boundaries and effectively put up walls or spend you life acting like you’re policing your electric fence and are going to pick up everyone on every last little thing. You may be experiencing discomfort and wondering what it means and basically, you may be getting frustrated.
Boundaries are a natural and very necessary part of life even though many of us don’t have them. When you switch to being and doing what you’ve spent a lifetime doing entirely differently, it’s damn scary and very uncomfortable. Fortunately you can use past experience as your barometer of what will happen if you don’t have appropriate boundaries.
But there are different ‘shades’ of boundary and equally different ‘shades’ of discomfort and this got me thinking when I was brainstorming the subject for an ebook, that it would be good to visualise boundaries. The picture I’ve drawn is what boundaries look like to me.
At the centre of it is you.
The yellow zone represents low-level stuff that will annoy you but is not exactly earth shattering and you can deal with. Life can actually be pretty harmonious if the great majority of what you feel is in this zone.
Think of this as your day-to-day, low-level heading towards medium level stuff. Using examples I’ve heard recently, it’s the guy who brushes his teeth in the kitchen sink at the office (heaving), the woman who spoke to me in a condescending manner in the shop, someone chancing their arm at work, when a parent makes those annoying but habitual comments and pokes around in your life more so out of misguided concern and habit, people who sit too close on the train, when someone gives you unsolicited advice and you don’t even know them, a thoughtless comment or action that is acknowledged and apologised for, disagreements that get resolved etc.
It’s important to remember that it’s a natural part of life to experience some discomfort, to get annoyed, and to experience conflict.
The orange zone is really the border crossing to the outer limits – it’s where you are experiencing enough discomfort that you should be seeing it as warning that the situation needs to be handled. If it is dealt with at this point, you’ll get back into the harmonious yellow zone with that person/situation/boundary.
If you decide to proceed with the warning, you will be in the outer limits (the pink zone) of your boundaries which means you will be experiencing and accepting things that are very uncomfortable to you. It may be because you are looking for a solution, trying to work things out with them, or you may be burying your head in the sand about the level of the problem. You know that the problem exists, you’re just not ready to acknowledge and in the process, you are opening yourself up to pain.
If you have been involved with an emotionally unavailable person or an assclown, or have found yourself being taken advantage of by friends/family/colleagues, you are in the pink zone, or…depending on how much you have put up with, you are at the red zone that rings the outer limits. You may even be in the dangerous zone which means you’ve basically jumped your own fence.
If you’re in the pink zone, you need to either need to be aborting the mission or at the very least, keeping your eyes and ears open to work out the level of danger. More importantly, the pink zone seriously requires action.
The more that issues resulting from boundaries crossed in the red zone continue, the more you push yourself to the furthest point of your outer limits until you get to the red ring (zone) which represents your limit.
If you spend the majority of a relationship in the pink zone, it is a very unhealthy relationship filled with red flags.
At the red ring, it’s time to cash out, abort the mission, step away from the gambling table and limit the ‘loss’ from your investment. The red ring also represents boundaries that when crossed, they immediately signal that you should abort the mission, back off or do something to protect yourself.
Examples of boundaries I have that represent that limit are in my post on 12 core boundaries to live by in life, dating and relationships and include not dating people who have passively or directly rejected me and not being involved with attached people.
Beyond the red boundary line is the danger zone and it means you are not only acting without boundaries, but are living out of sync with yourself and putting yourself in situations where you cannot be treated with love, care, trust, and respect. This is an abusive zone.
What is important to note from this is:
What’s fundamentally important to getting the balance right with your boundaries is learning what is and isn’t appropriate in your relationships because a lot of people are programmed to have stuff that should be in the pink or red zones, in the yellow zone – this is normalising bad behaviour and having unhealthy love habits. For people like this, shit will hit the proverbial fan and they will go so far as losing the health, home, self, money, family, friends etc because they’re actually prepared to go far further into the dangerous zone because they think that there are further limits to what they can endure.
There will be some people that you meet, who are immediately on the red line. They display dangerous red flags and these should not be ignored.
There are even more people that you meet who are in the pink zone who are displaying red flags and if you proceed in being involved with them, you will either stay in this zone or work your way up to red and beyond.
What you need is to ensure that the key people in your life, friends, family, romantic partners are in the yellow zone – these are people who consistently and generally respect your boundaries and rarely, if ever, go beyond this zone.
The zones also represent discomfort and if you are in orange and beyond, you will be very uncomfortable although if you are catering to a pattern, you will be in the uncomfortable familiar.
If someone starts out busting boundaries in pink or red and you stay with them, you are extremely unlikely to get them into the yellow zone on a consistent long-term basis.
What you can also learn is that there are levels to your boundaries and levels to your discomfort – it is your job to define your boundaries, to define your limits and listen to your discomfort.
While I appreciate that learning to have boundaries is new, it is necessary, however you will have problems and be an aggressive angry person if you treat everything like it’s in the red zone and react accordingly. Your friend forgetting to call because they’re caught up with work/kids/whatever, just doesn’t fall on the same scale as someone treating you without love, care, trust, and respect.
Boundaries are not walls for you to build a fortress around yourself and trust no-one. Having boundaries lets you have a basic level of trust that you increase with positive evidence and decrease with negative evidence.
Boundaries allow you to be emotionally available and experience vulnerability because you are prepared to listen to yourself. And note – being vulnerable doesn’t mean throwing caution to the wind and attaching yourself to the nearest assclown or unavailable while loving and trusting blindly!
Treat others as you would want to be treated and by that I mean, imagine yourself as someone who is treated with love, care, trust, and respect and treats others with the same courtesy.
Having levels to your boundaries gives you scope to give the benefit of the doubt, to give people a chance, and to gather more information, but knowing your limits makes you accountable and ensures that you will not put yourself in dangerous situations. You will already have been doing the due diligence and recognised that even though it hurts, it’s uncomfortable and it’s not ideal, all signs say step away or take protective measures.
Loving and trusting blindly are deterrents to boundaries hence why you need to get conscious, listen to yourself, open your eyes and ears and not just think and see with your libido and your imagination.
Having boundaries will help you hone your instincts and to trust your gut and intuition. They are vital.
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I LOVE LOVE LOVE the spherical model of pushing boundaries and reaching “the outer limits”. Excellent representation there Natalie. 🙂
I agree that we can put up with things that are otherwise trivial because that’s what we get when decide to be in a relationship. Nobody is perfect.
Real boundaries are set forth when we value ourselves enough to set them. People who don’t declare boundaries, don’t declare self-worth. People shouldn’t be hard-pressed to set boundaries but when we don’t know ourselves, we don’t know what our boundaries are.
It’s amazing how far people will go to test the boundaries of others. They do it by mind control and manipulation (among many other ways), and they don’t give a lick about the damage they are inflicting. People who play the “red zone” boundary game are bad news all around.
From FeistyWoman: “but when we don’t know ourselves, we don’t know what our boundaries are.”
And you can’t know ALL your boundaries until certain situations are put in your face. Oh yeah, you can SAY that you won’t date a smoker, until you actually date one! Or, there may be boundaries that you don’t know you have because you have no exposure to the situation, therefore, don’t know that you would or would not have a boundary. Example: I used to love going to the beach. Until I dated a guy that gawked at all the women in bikinis and made comments about their bodies and figures, etc. Now, I no longer enjoy going to the beach. Ok, I shouldn’t let a memory from 30 years ago affect me that way, but it did. Ok, maybe that’s not a boundary, it’s more of an “insecurity.” Best example I could think of…….
I can appreciate what you said. It’s hard to know our boundaries until someone pushes them to the extreme. As Natalie said, many times before, whenever things start to feel too uncomfortable, a huge boundary is being crossed.
Some people thrive on pushing boundaries, much in the same way that mean beach gawker guy did you. Not only was he pushing boundaries, he was being outright abusive and nasty about it and that has had a very lasting effect on you and your self-esteem. I’m sorry that had to happen to you. You didn’t deserve that and no woman does.
It’s true that we don’t know what our boundaries are until people push us over the edge. And sometimes that’s what it takes.
JJ2 it doesn’t matter whether you find out before or after. What matters is that it is up to you to determine if and how you deal with it and how much discomfort it has caused you. We’re not fortune tellers. We are not islands though – if you have awareness of general boundaries and what others experience, you can get a good idea of what may potentially cause you discomfort. You may not be with a married man but you can still decide that if you met someone and they were married, you would opt out.
It’s recognising if you’re experiencing pink zone you’ll get to red zone – if you don’t apply boundaries.
The beach thing – it’s an immensely disproportionate reaction. It’s like saying the beach is a threat. Unless you are scared of women in bikinis, the issue isn’t the beach or the women; it was him, 30 years ago. What you would need to ask is what is so unresolved about what happened that you wouldn’t process it and instead decide not to go to the beach?
Not going to the beach for those reasons isn’t a boundary – it’s insecurity as you said. That’s very far from being the same thing. Like comparing apples and oranges.
The boundary is that you find it unacceptable when a partner oggles/flirts with others. If he had done it in a shop, would you never go to a shop again?
Re your mother, mine behaves in much the same way. I still have boundaries. They’re for me not her. You’re trying to teach her to suck eggs – if she was going to change she would’ve by now. What you need to do is learn how to handle it. If she asks something with the option of a choice, take the choice and let the consequence be hers. You’re not a child so you don’t have to pander to every request. If you’re planning to, own your decision in pandering to those requests and get behind it after all it is you not setting limits, not her.
Thank you, NML. You are right, I have to handle it. That’s the hard part. I have trouble with my Mom’s “innocent” questions (that often have hidden agenda behind them). I guess when she asks me a question instead of just blurting out an answer, I will have to count to 10 and see if my gut wrenches. If it does, just walk out of the room and refuse to answer.
And yes, I have to resolve the issue for why I won’t go to the beach.
Very informative article Nat. You explain the different boundary zones perfectly as usual! When you said ” You’re not a child so you don’t have to pander to every request. If you’re planning to, own your decision in pandering to those requests and get behind it after all it is you not setting limits, not her.” Excellant point-i was always fearful of my mom’s reaction if i didn’t do what she wanted-it kept me trapped and controlled for years. I wanted her love and i would do anything to get it-and i didn’t want her to be mad at me because it hurt me. I didn’t want to lose her approval. Now i don’t care anymore-I care more about myself and my needs then hers in a more healthy way.
Thanks FeistyWoman! “Real boundaries are set forth when we value ourselves enough to set them. People who don’t declare boundaries, don’t declare self-worth. ” Ammmmmmmen!
Awww shucks Natalie, you’re welcome. Great minds think alike. 🙂
“If someone starts out busting boundaries in pink or red and you stay with them, you are extremely unlikely to get them into the yellow zone on a consistent long-term basis. ”
This is the lesson I have finally learned. My AC/Narc that treated me as disposable and without love, care, trust, or respect would NEVER suddenly nor eventually become a non-AC/Narc who would have my best interest at heart.
Almost 6 weeks of NC. I don’t miss him at all. I don’t wish to communicate with him at all. But, I am hit with these awful pangs of hurt at times when I realize that he treated me much more horribly than I even realized in the moments the worst happened.
Even though I know Natalie is right that I have rejected him through NC, I can’t help but feel that he rejected me because he hasn’t tried to contact me in these six weeks. I know I should be grateful for this, and I am as it is making NC so much easier, but it is still so hard to wrap my head around the fact that five years didn’t mean a thing and he is just okay for me to go away.
With that said though, I do believe he is tracking me online. So emotionally unavailable. He got to where he didn’t want to communicate in normal traditional ways with me such as talking face to face, but he wants to watch my every internet move from a chair in his house on the internet. Yet again, on his terms. Everything was and always will be. Not with me anymore though.
These ACs/EUMs/Narcs just fly in the face of all that I thought I knew about people in this world and I am having to literally go into advanced educational studies to gain knowledge and understanding to adequately arm myself, figuratively speaking.
Thank God for Natalie and Baggage Reclaim. This website has been the single most important resource to drive me to NC and therefore loving and respecting myself more.
Little Nickle
your comment really resonates with me. Nat’s site, for me too, has been the single most important resource in making me go NC. I don’t think I’d have been able to get this far – 4 1/2 months (with only one minor blip) – if I had not found this site and kept reading it.
I do not think I would even have thought about NC if not for this site – at least not in the way it is put forward by Nat; I would have been thinking that I need to finish it with him (again!!!) and try to stay finished… but I know I would not have viewed this in the same way as full on NC and so I would never have succeeded this far.
However, like you, I cannot help some days but feel really hurt that he is so willing to let me walk away (and I have known him for ten years!!) – he doesn’t contact me at all, and so I too feel confused about which one of us has gone NC – him or me!?? I feel that although I am the one who has taken on the “hard task” of NC I am also the “rejected” one – and some days it does make me feel really pissed off that I still feel I am the one being dumped!
Maybe it is the not knowing anymore if he would even still offer me the pittance he was offering before… or has he decided I am not even worth the trouble of his barely there relationship on his terms?… Has my NC not made any impression on him at all? And perhaps this is my curiosity – has it made no impression on him at all? And so now I feel in more danger of breaking NC than I have in over 4 months just to find out if he gives a shit!! And I KNOW I am being silly and it’s the validation thing… and I know if he gave a shit I wouldn’t be in this position! And I have nothing to say to him anyway – well… nothing and everything, actually – but nothing is all it would amount to… anything other than ‘please come see me I miss you so much’ would fall on deaf ears… and I am NOT asking him to come back!! NEVER.
I am hanging in… but have had my bad days. I know I cannot give up and I won’t. I think I really hate his guts now.. and he doesn’t want to hear from me to tell him what a shit he is!… and what else could I tell him, I say to myself… what would I have to say to him now – after all of this pain and misery, really, what would I have to say?… and I always come up with the right answer: Nothing.
Fearless,
Don’t do it. It’s just not worth it. He’s not worth it. I have been NC for almost 10 months and miraculously, I never slipped or broke it. Yes I have gone through periods of ‘missing’ him and wondering if NC had any impact on him, blah blah blah. That stopped about 2 months ago. And now? Now I don’t even WANT him. Something just happened to me – cannot explain it, and I promise that I NEVER thought I would ever feel this way (it had been 12 years of trash). I asked God to show me how to love, value, honor, respect and accept myself – because obviously I was lacking in that area and had few boundaries. I did not date for several months and I wasn’t pressed about it. It felt wonderful – yes it was tough b/c AC was still on my mind, but I knew that I was on my way to…better. What’s different for me now – I KNOW that I am better than that – that I AM worthy, and he is simply not for me – and it is OK. And I be DAMNED if I would have tried to connect with him after I told him to beat it and started NC – for what?!? So that he could see that he STILL had a hold on me? No thanks! It is finally a wrap – curtain closed. Praise The LORD!!! You will get to a place where you truly see him and I PROMISE you – you will not even want his a**. Stick with that NC girl – that sh*t there is the truth!
Very well said Slowly Surely. “nd I be DAMNED if I would have tried to connect with him after I told him to beat it and started NC – for what?!? So that he could see that he STILL had a hold on me? No thanks!” THAT is why NC can be so empowering – you value yourself.
@Slowly Surely
Thank you so much for your empowering words. This site is like having a support group. I appreciare everything you say. I ahve been ‘broken hearted’ – not necessarily by EU types – before, a few times I have been inconsolable with grief over the end of a relationship, and I did get over these guys. I wouldn’t have any one of them back now and I never give them a thought. So I know what you mean. I know that eventually he will just be added to the list of “gone and forgotten”!
I think perhaps the fact that I am older now – I can’t help feeling is an added punishment to the whole deal, just another thing to make me feel shit about myself… not only did I spend nearly ten years (on and off!!!) wanting only this one man (the ex) but I am ten years older now… and it shows! I know, though, that dwelling on the ‘negatives’ does not help me and I am aware of it when I am doing it, so I try to stay on the right side, look at bright side… and keep my chinny-chin up!!
Thanks for your support.
F
I hear you loud and clear, Fearless. It is like you were inside my brain as you typed your words. Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It helps so much to know someone is in my same boat at this very moment.
I feel just like you. Is the fact I have disappeared making any impression on my AC/Narc at all? I know Natalie would say I am not living my life to the point there is no room for thoughts of him, and she is 100% correct. However, as humans we try to make sense out of the nonsensical. Even the animal kingdom likes order and doesn’t tolerate disorder. ACs/EUMs/Narcs thrive on creating chaotic, disordered, cluttered brains in their victims. We don’t know which way is up or down.
So, I wonder if these thoughts we are having, which could fall under obsessing, are just part of the process of letting them go? I guess I am inarticulately saying that we are trying to make sense of it all since we have opted out with NC and as a result our brains are being spared more abuse, we will eventually arrive at a more settled peaceful status when the abusive chaos is purged.
I hope the previous made sense……..Anyway, when I get really down about it all, I try to tell myself that since no relationship or friendship is really personal or deep with these manboys, my AC/Narc didn’t reject me because he didn’t even view me as a “me” aka separate person. I was just a mirror to reflect back to him what he wanted to see about himself. So, basically he got rid of a tool, which is how he viewed me. I also tell myself that nothing is personal with them. My AC went into a narcissistic rage with me once and within 30 seconds was as calm as a lamb. That proves how nothing is personal. If he was so angry he would have stayed angry for longer than 30 seconds.
Let’s stay strong Fearless. You have come so far after 4 months of NC! I can’t wait to say 4 months myself! Let me share something with you that has helped to keep me focused on maintaining NC. I got a dayplanner. Every day since the day I started NC I have written down one thing that my AC did to me that crossed my boundaries or was abusive. I start each entry with “NC because of the time……..” I also chart the weeks and plan a reward for myself at milestones (one month, two months, etc.). Visiting this day planner every day and seeing in black and white what he did to me keeps my bristles up. I feel empowered when I see it and can see the progress I have made. I must confess though, there was so much to write down I have actually already gone into March 2011 with the memories of mistreatment!
Best of luck to you Fearless! I will see you here next time! 🙂
Little Nickle
Little Nickle & Fearless: I can totally relate to what both of you wrote; you feel like he’s done NC on you. But that’s a good thing, either way. One who I went NC on, who screwed me up the most, has gone on his merry way without looking back. I’d be surprised if he remembered my name. By them not contacting us, they’re telling us all we need to know about how they feel (or more accurately, DON’T feel ) about us. Period. It’s taken me months to realize: our time together meant nothing to him, he didn’t love me, didn’t want me around and hell, he didn’t even LIKE me. And if he suddenly called me and apologized, or told me he realized during our time apart that he truly did love me & professed his undying love, I’d NEVER believe one word out of that miserable little weenie’s mouth.
I don’t care if he thinks he’s the one who’s ignoring me. If he ever tries to come back, my silence would make things perfectly clear. If he never tries to come back, he’s doing me a favor!
Here’s the fun part: The other one that I went NC on, who I never, ever, ever want to see ever again, is the one who keeps coming back! I ignore him at all costs and I don’t care if he misses me, loves me, has changed- whatever. I just want him to stay away from me. Guess it’s true: people want what (or who) they can’t have and if they can have it, they don’t want it.
Very well said MagicPotion. We want people to want us. It’s important to not get hijacked by those feelings though otherwise it all becomes a big game. I’m glad you’re reaping the benefits of NC.
Thanks Little Nickle too for your support. Yes, what you say does make sense. Your Calendar is a great idea.. I have written out a list of reasons to stay NC. I haven’t looked at them for a while now as I feel they are seared into my brain!!
I am maintaining NC. I will keep going. I know – despite my weaker moments and my bad days – that this is the right thing to do for all the right reasons… these people are just soooo hurtful, I don’t think I’d be human if I didn’t feel hurt about his “rejection” of me. What I need to do though – and I know it – is NOTHING about it and let it pass and focus on me – and that he was rejecting me anyway – every day of my life for nearly ten years I felt rejected by this man. It was everything on his terms… I fed off crumbs…well the terms have changed.. and he knows it. But it’s not about him…!!
Good luck. Stay strong. I have an impression you are young and have much in front of you… let this one go – let him bugger off. You are worth so much more than that. Know it!
@Fearless-
Wow, ten years, I am sorry. I know how you feel, my situation is the same, but after 6 years, not 10. I was the one who went NC but I was also the one who was dumped. He tried to contact me a few times afterwards on IM, email, and even a lame text, but after I didn’t bite, that was it, on to a new girl in less than two months.
I know I made it easy for him to move on by ignoring him. He can still look like the nice guy (very important to him) and say “I TRIED” to our mutual friends to contact her ” but she won’t talk to me, what can I do? ” Yes, I made it easy, but why squabble with someone who doesn’t want to be there?! I do have some pride- maybe its my ego, but in this case it helps 🙂
Bottom line is…you are better off without a person who treated you that way. There is no opportunity lost there. Someone who can so easily wipe another person out of thier life after 10 years is obviously missing an emotional chip. He actually might not miss you because he can’t. Or he only misses what you did for him, not for who you are. Be thankful you have the rest of your life to find a partner who is waiting for you to get over the assclown who let you walk away.
But I do caution, the more you try to understand how he thinks or how your NC effects him, you start moving out of yourself and back into the trap of seeking external validation. Believe me I know, becasue I still do it occasionally too, but it may help to remember that you are better off alone that with someone who could treat anyone that way.
jas
“Someone who can so easily wipe another person out of thier life after 10 years is obviously missing an emotional chip. ” BINGO!
Thanks Jasmine (and Magic Potion!)
Your comment is very helpful. Yes, he is missing an emotional chip!! A whole bag of chips. He is too arrogant and stubborn as well. He has a lot of pride (much more than me, obviously). You are right – and I know when I am doing it, i.e. wondering how what/how he is thinking/feeling, and that is the “trap”, as you say, that will keep me hooked in in some way… I am aware of the pitfalls, I think – thanks to Nat’s great blogs and advice – I feel I know all the “dangers” now pretty well… sometimes it just comes down to having the strength, the courage.. the pig-headedness to force yourself down the right road in the right direction and not to be tempted by the detours. I have been in love with this man for ten years and this is the first time I have taken any real, serious action to do something about the shitty situation… I didn’t have plan!!… I just went NC according to the “instructions” via Natalie… and here I am!! Still trundling along… hoping I stay sane and hoping I am big enough to see it all through to the other side of sanity, whatever lies there.
I am a strong person though when I accept that I MUST do something – when I see it as unavoidable: must is my only master! Maybe I hit some hurdles, maybe don’t get it right every hour of every day – but I do generally get there in the end.
Thanks!!
Like Little Nickie Fearless, a lot of what you’re experiencing is part of the grieving process but I would dig a little and ask yourself what your motivations are for NC so that you don’t undermine your own efforts. Are you doing NC to attention seek and provoke a reaction? Or are you doing NC because you want to break the cycle and move on? – This basically boils down to ‘Am I actually done yet?’ Decide what you want and own and support your decision. List your reasons for being NC. Put it on a wall, tape it to your mirror etc and look at them in black and white. It’s not that he doesn’t care at all, but you ended it because he couldn’t give you what you want and he is respecting that. He tested to see if the door was open and whether you would do things on his terms, you rejected that. If you want him on the original terms, he is there for you to avail yourself of. If you don’t, then it’s back to NC. This isn’t a negotiation that you have going on with him where you’re both pulling stealth moves. Decide – are you in? Or are you out?
Grieving process. I read on the blog (the person who had the Narcissisim blog) that it takes a VERY LONG TIME to grieve and let go of a relationship with a narcissist. People who have not been involved with those kinds of people don’t understand.
I’ve been told I “should” date and meet some other guy. NO! When you haven’t fully “Grieved” a relationship, you cannot date someone else, because you will be looking for the validation you didn’t get from the A/C and it will be all wrong. Don’t EVEN go on a “Casual” date. You know the one, the one your friends want to set you up on, the guy who “just wants a good time, no attachments, just go have fun…..”
It’s been ten months since I walked out on the A/C (but only 1 month of N/C, my fault….), and I think I’m finally at the point where I could go out with someone else. But my heart will know when it’s right.
JJ2! I’ve been thinkin about that a lot lately. My brain has been pretty much on board with me from day one of NC and before – on board and ready to go – totally makes sense – we can do this – it’s best, it should be easy! But that heart. The heart has been so slow to catch up – like a weight dragging behind. All the issues…all the pain and hanging on. The heart, I’ve noticed, is like the Earth turning. It’s progress, most days, is nearly undetectable, but it’s progress is COMPLETE – life changing, irreversible. It’s been nearly a year NC for me (-:
Thanks Natalie. I get what you are saying.
“Decide what I want?” You are quite right, however , deciding what “I want” is probably my biggest problem because “what I want” is really not an option anymore – either way, what I want is not on any table in any fashion at the moment… but I do know I do not want more of the same with him. That’s all I know. But also I do not want where I am in my life right now either – I would never choose this as “what I want”!! But it’s either ‘this’ or more of the same with “him”. I know what you are saying Nat, and I agree… but in my head – where I am and have been – it’s not about choosing what I want – it’s about doing what I really have to do – have needed to do for years – because it is the best thing for me in the long run. I cling to that as my motivation… that this is best for me and I must care about me and not engage with people who really mean me no good – they pretend to, but they don’t.
I can only work to make things better for myself… but “what I want” has not come into my head (yet??) – my NC has been motivated by your blogs and realising precisely what it is that I DO NOT WANT and DO NOT NEED and shaking off what I know is detrimental to my self-esteem and emotional well- being. I have no regrets… and I know I won’t have in the future.
I know what you mean too about “are you in or out?” I guess I am out! I think when I started NC I was just running with it as fast as I could; taking the advice that I could see was sound… and hoping that NC would help me with come to the answers and to the right mental place… and it certainly has, to a very large extent… but there is still the residual stuff creeping in and, as you say, I am grieving. It’s hard not to feel hurt when the man you have known for all these years just lets you walk away without so much as whimper!! But that says it all, doesn’t it. Good reason to stay NC if ever I needed another!
Thanks for all your help
F
@Fearless
I broke NC at 97 days. He had a poem I wrote about him when I was 15 and in my last email (Sept 8th) I had asked him to send it back. He never did – I called him from a payphone last Monday (as he still has my number blocked) and asked him to send me my poem – he said ok and then asked how I was – trying to engage me again – I told him to just send my poem in the mail and hung up.
Contact has taken me back quite a few steps again – how come he can’t love me, what was wrong with me, he could never block the girl that he supposedly did nothing with but continues to block me – I hate that I still want validation, to have mattered to him – why now when he couldn’t even treat me with respect, trust and love, etc when “together”?!!!
I found myself very angry that he even had the audacity to ask “how are you?” I wish I had said none of your f-ing business. But at least I did not engage, at least I had the common sense to realize that is how he pulls you in – like he is Mr Nice Guy. What’s funny is that I was waiting for the results of a biopsy (which turned out just fine) when I broke up with him – never a concern since from him. He does not care how I am, never did and never will – that is what my EGO struggles with.
He finally mailed back my poem – thank God – I knew it was very vulnerable, but reading it again I realize why I had such a hard time letting it go (trying to not care he had it). It was much more vulnerable than I remembered – great relief to have it back and out of his Narc/Ego hands.
I had such a great few weeks and just taking steps backward since I found out about my dad’s affair, my brother and his AC ways and my AC’s sister and brother-in-law contacting me. I am so angry with men and do not want to be, I really do like them and wish I could pick good men – still in therapy and working on that.
I really thought I had this behind me and am dreading the Holidays again – damn it!!
Hi Aimee, I’m sorry to hear of what has happened. I think it would be good to examine within yourself why the poem was of such significance. Bearing in mind that it’s not something that was returnable on paper and that has in fact, forwarded you an email that he still has in his possession, you have to ask what the significance is of him sending it to you? For instance, couldn’t you have pulled it from your own sent items? That aside, what do you believe will change now that he has sent you a copy of it?
I always say that when we fall off the wagon we can make it as big or as small as we want it to be and before things spiral, I would have an honest conversation with yourself and not be so hard on you. You’re grieving the loss of a relationship – that’s what you had as well as the illusions of what you thought it and he might become. You are human and you love and want to be loved, but asking why an AC can’t love you how you want to be loved is like wondering why when you put your bucket in an empty well, no water comes out.
It’s also important to note that it’s not that they don’t care at all, it’s just they don’t care to the level that you wanted and needed. They have a limited capacity. As he’s self-absorbed, your biopsy is low on his radar. It wouldn’t do for you to be the centre of attention….
Do not ruin the Holidays. You asked him for the poem, you got it, now dust off your knees, dry your eyes, and get back on the saddle. He is still the same man he was before you fell off the wagon.
Use the time with the therapist also to talk about your feelings about the affair etc as it sounds like, understandably, it’s knocked your faith, after all, you do expect better of your father. Good luck x
@ Nat
Thank you for responding – it was never sent by email, never in email format. I wrote it in 1980 and tore the poem of my poem book and gave it to him. I had “asked him” to mail it in my last email, it is the original that I had no copy of.
I did ask myself for 3 months why it bothered me that he had it (of course I gave it to him) and why he would not mail it back. In the months of trying to let it go – I realized that I felt he still had a vulnerable part of me that I didn’t want him to have, that I had given it to him under false pretense on his part, and I didn’t want it added to “his trophy’s”. Probably very immature on my part – I sometimes feel like I am that stupid 15 year old I was when I met him 30 years ago.
“It’s also important to note that it’s not that they don’t care at all, it’s just they don’t care to the level that you wanted and needed.” OR DESERVED. I find that alot of my anger is at myself for tolerating such terrible behaviour and treatment – I guess part of the grieving process.
Natalie – thank you so much for your kind words, sometimes I get so lost in that mindset that it was all my fault, that he will treat her better, etc. And believe that is me wanting to have control – control how people treatment, etc. than I can make myself “feel” better without having to really feeeeeel the feelings.
Hi NML, Aimee
I assumed Aimee was talking about a poem she had written on paper when she was fifteen – not an ‘electronic’ version?
I can understand the desire to have it back – but agree with Nat, in the sense of how important is it really? – we all write stuff when we’re fifteen that have no real relevance to who we are now.
I am sorry too, Aimee, for how you feel. But you were doing so well – and you will again! You will! I know it’s hard – very hard – to imagine that someone you loved can be so dismissive of you and your welfare. But you do not need him to re-affirm to you what you are worth. You are worth love and care and respect and don’t you forget it!… and you are worth all of that with or without his permission! We must keep reminding oursleves- a thousand times a day if need be – “his” opinion does not count. He does not raise us up and he does not put us down. We are who we are with or without them.
Am sorry to hear about your dad’s poor behaviour – don’t take it on yourself. It’s not about you. He must answer to his own conscience.
Take good care of yourself – and make no excuses for doing it!
Merry Christmas! x
Little Nickie, while some of the things you’re feeling are natural you are basically wondering why you’re not getting water from an empty well and forgetting your reasons for NC. You have to decide – am I doing this to break free of this cycle and move forward? Or am I doing this to go into hibernation and see if me cutting contact will revolutionise the wheel and have him chase me and change?’
You’re expressing frustration because someone you state is an AC/EUM is not calling you after you have cut contact. And therein lies the problem. It’s not about being grateful for the lack of contact per se although that does help, but it is about making up your mind about what you’re doing and remembering your reasons for being NC. Write them down and when you feel angry that and rejected that he’s not chasing you, look at the list. Stop focusing on him and getting validation in the form of him chasing you and start focusing on moving on. What you’re experiencing is a natural part of the grieving process but you will flip flap between denial, anger, and feeling very down if you continue to be in denial about the true nature of this person. There is a part of you in denial about this person otherwise you wouldn’t be wondering why he is “just okay for me to go away”.
Natalie,
Thank you for your comments. You are right, and I agree with you about writing stuff down to remember why I am doing NC. I replied to Fearless about what I have been doing. I bought a calendar and write down a reason a day why I am doing NC. There is so much abuse to record I have actually kept writing and am now into March of 2011 in the calendar. I will probably fill up all of 2011 before long. I have revisited it when I feel my saddest and it does bolster me with renewed motivation and clarity.
I am firm in my resolve to maintain NC. He will not change. He won’t abuse me again. You are right that I am grieving, and I’m also having to relearn how to emotionally “walk” again after 30+ years of training from my mother who was the prototype for the “good girl” who firmly believed until her 50’s that her kindness would be reciprocated. It is a big shock to the system when one realizes that there are actually people who are not only indifferent to us, but mean to abuse and harm us. I believe that is where some of my trying to make sense of it all comes in. My AC/Narc was my first (and last) brush with this insanity.
I can’t thank you enough for this blog and your wisdom which has been a life and sanity saver for me.
Little Nickle
“There are even more people that you meet who are in the pink zone who are displaying red flags and if you proceed in being involved with them, you will either stay in this zone or work your way up to red and beyond.”
Oh yes – definitely experencing this one at this particular moment. I intentionally did not go to a group meeting because of an individual (woman friend sort of) who has on a consistent basis made attempts at busting my boundaries. I knew I was not in any good state to deal with her effectively at the moment. I have backed off from the friendship – although she still pursues like an AC – she has very little if any boundaries of her own and seems to have a jolly green giant approach to most everyone she interacts with – from my observation – so its not only me she rubs the wrong way. Several others in the group have also commented on her lack of respect. I am at the point where something must be said/done but not really sure on how to approach or whether it will fall on deaf ears. In any case, because of the nature of the group I can’t just go NC on her all together which would not break my heart in any way. I don’t want to give up my group either. My patience is wearing thin and I am afraid I am not going to be able to be diplomatic for much longer before I rip her a new ass. Something I would rather not do – she would use it against me. How do you handle situations that require kid gloves due to circumstance and still hold to your boundaries without zapping somebody. Unhealthy – really don’t want anything to do with her but like a co-worker have to find a way to put up with her. How do you tolerate someone that clearly disrespects you and continues to do so when called on the carpet so to speak when NC is not an option?
Ok just re-read Conflict with Friends on Boundaries – wish I would have thought of that yesterday! I get it – just be my authetic self. I shouldn’t have to compromise my values for someone else -she can just deal or not. 30 plus years of bad habits are hard to break! Certainly won’t happen overnight but progress not perfection.
Movedup….I too had a similar situation. Once when the” Thorn in my side” was being rude/disrespectful to not only me but others in our group when we were discussing an upcomming charity event (butting in/rolling eyes/mocking suggestions etc etc) I as the chair of the group ended the discussion, handed her the agenda and told her since she seemed so well equiped to run the show all by herself and obviously didn’t need anyone else’s help/ideas she could do it all by herself. I then got up and walked out. Needless to say there was alot of sputtering and Oh I didn’t mean to offend anyone etc etc. Next meeting, quiet as a church mouse.
Sometimes I think you have to put these folks on the spot in order to get your point across. Expose them to the world since they simply do not respond to any normal request when it comes to boundaries and its a waste of time in think otherwise.
Brilliantly said MaryC especially the last para!
I love what MaryC said. You need some protective armour in the form of distancing yourself and as MaryC said, it sounds like you need to put her in her place. Repeatedly move away from her and be very brief in any encounters. If she is still not taking the hint, take her aside and tell her that she is making you uncomfortable and would appreciate it if she backed off.
I liked the concept of increasing boundaries. But I tend to visualize the diagram in reverse, with the red boundaries nearest to me in the center (my innermost core). I thought I’d suggest that in case you try it and prefer it. I don’t know whether it’s “better” but it’s what came to me. Thanks for bringing this up. I want to improve my boundaries too, both in personal relationships and with my workplace.
Like David, I, too, visualised it the other way, the red being closest to me…
That’s fine. Do what works for you. The thing is that what you say you visualise, based on all the comments you have left, suggests that how you visualise is not how you live. It would also mean if the outer limit was in your immediacy, there would be no shades of boundary or discomfort.
Thanks David. Whatever works for you as long as it helps your boundaries. I did try to visualise it your way but admittedly in the context of demonstrating the limits I became confused. But will certainly take your comment on board and look at it further.
NML I too see the boundaries as reversed. In my mind I picture a fort or castle with all its protective outer walls/defences/boundaries to prevent invaders from getting close to the inhabitants. If invaders/ACs can breach the first limit there is typically a stronger wall, but they may not get any closer, the next particular defenses are more fortified. Unfortunately if the invader is able to continue, they know the inner sanctum is where the most value is.
If the next wall is breached, maybe there exists a defect in the defense network, a wall has crumbled etc. But maybe defenses will hold. BUT if the invaders breach that wall, the place where the inhabitants and everything near and dear reside is closer at hand, that does not bode well for those inside. Well if this fort/castle is successfully invaded, the inner castle keep breached, those inhabitants and its valuables are at the invaders mercy.
Why does this happen, well, defenses are distracted, not strong enough, not available in enough quantity. Or the weapons and invader are just to powerful at this particular time. Your vision works for me, just in revervse with the colors reversed too. REd being those boundaries most sacred, and important to us.
Those boundaries hopefully never are breached, but we have to actively maintain the walls and defenses, the “soldiers” (ourself) that keep those walls fortified. Sometimes we do need to reassess and repair and make changes. We need to refortify and redirect efforts.
The past few weeks here have helped me tremendously in reestablishing my boundaries, identifying weak areas and creating new goals and healing from a 2 year relationship with a A/C Narc, future-faker, drip-feeder, Player. My defenses are being refortified and reconfigured with new strategies and support. It has not been easy but I am learning where I had the weakened outer walls. I think that is the first step, it is an individualized process but also one that many of us unfortunately have experienced. I gain from these posts, I read so much, but I recomment using legitimate sources too. My background in education and healthcare have helped me find resources to aid in my rebuilding. This site has helped too.
Thank you for the continued messages, so many seem to hit me at just the right time.
Thanks for your comments regarding the diagram. I won’t however use any analogy that includes ‘walls’ as they are not the same thing as boundaries. The diagram is about defining limits and understanding that there are different shades of boundaries as opposed to doing ‘battle’ per se and stopping an invasion. Your perception of it works in a different context but certainly in terms of boundaries, I don’t use ‘walls’ especially as it confuses when I then say that boundaries are not about putting up walls and closing everyone out.
I’m very curious though Susan – is Baggage Reclaim an illegitimate source?
NML absolutely not, I don’t believe so, but I could see how my phrasing could come across that way. I mean to clarify that the internet has many sources available to us, but buyer beware. Some are extremely helpful and truly based on sound and good intentions, as I believe this site is.
As far as boundaries, or walls etc. In my mind they are the same thing, something that is very important to us, our values, our core beliefs, our morals. I don’t use walls to mean something to keep people out I use them to mean a line of demarcation. Not all walls go floor to ceiling, many are just dividers that separate you from me, something that defines us/our space our “place”, who we are. I hope that clarifies my post.
Thanks for clarifying Susan 🙂
Nataly, great article! I have a question for you:
I am actually in a fairly new, very good relationship with a decent guy, however, there is one thing which drives me crazy and find very annoying to the point that I dont know what to do. I am not sure in which level this falls in hence why I need your input. I have talked to him about it once and he said he will definitely work on it.
His problem is : He just can’t keep a secret. I have told him before ” this is just between you and me” I dont think he means harm but he still went ahead and told my friend I specifically asked not to say. He felt sorry he did it, told me I was 100% right, its annoying and he justified it that he is just too honest.
It happened once, I got annoyed but I didnt make a big deal out of it.
However, On another occasion I also said: ” please keep in mind that I need you to say “this” to the car insurance company, not “this” because they will charge me more”. You guess it, yes, he went ahead and said the very thing I asked him not to say.
This time I asked him, why do you keep doing it? Didn’t you hear me the first time? Am I not clear enough? Needless to say I got annoyed, I haven’t answered his calls, I feel he is not listening. I feel I dont have a confidant in him and I can’t trust to say something in fear he will open his mouth and tell.
He doesnt seem to have control over his mouth and he recognizes it. Its definitely annoying, even his sister told him once : ” I wont tell you that because you cant keep a secret”. When I heard this, I felt understood, I felt I was not going crazy and that someone else felt same way as I do.
Apart from this, He is a very good guy, but I just want to know where this particular situation falls into? I am already applying my boundaries because I told him this is the second time this happens and I would never do that to him. I asked him Why does he keep doing it? He just couldn’t answer me, I dont even think he knows how to control his mouth.
Am I being too harsh? Am I right to feel this way? What would you do in my situation?
Thank you!!!
Hi Myself, look, we’re all prone to letting the cat out of the bag on occasion but that’s not actually the issue here. Personally, I could not trust someone like that. The problem here is two fold: he has no respect for things that are kept between you both as he feels like in having the piece of knowledge, it’s like having a hot potato to offload. With that knowledge, he seems to think he is being ‘honest’ in his indiscretions.
The other part of the problem is that in spite of his behaviour, you still keep giving him opportunities to blab your stuff!
You both have different attitudes and values. It’s not that he’s honest and you’re dishonest, but he has made a personal decision to decide what he deems honest, even with other people’s information. You have the attitude of that ‘we’re in a relationship and I should be able to tell you stuff without you blabbing’ – you’re right but the problem is that you’re expecting him to change.
What is a clear red flag is that aside from being a big frickin’ blabbermouth, he is also disloyal. He does mean harm and to suggest he doesn’t removes his accountability. He KNOWS that when he says this stuff, it creates negative consequences for you. He screwed with your friendship and he messed with your insurance.
There is a lack of respect for your wishes and he is so far over the boundaries it is unreal. It is one thing if you very occasionally something slipped out but that is not the case here – you told him something about a friend and he went and told her.
Personally, it’d be game over no credits for me. In a romantic relationship you need trust between you both. You need to feel that you can confide in him and you can’t. While it is one thing for him not to want to partake in something dishonest (the insurance), there just isn’t an excuse for selling you down the river to your friend. If you stay, STOP telling him stuff that you don’t want a third party to know about. It’s either that or you make clear that a third strike and his ass is bounced to the door. It would also help (if you’re going to stay) to ask him what his motivations are for doing this stuff – you will then understand his position…even if it’s odd.
I think the jerk wants to make her look bad, like a liar to the insurance co. and like a jerk to her friend.
This is HIM, too. His family even says he does it.
This is an insecure, insensitive asshole.
I’d run!
Nat,
What a great article!!! I like the idea of being self aware and strong enough to approach people with a basic level of trust that will either increase or decrease with EVIDENCE (not projection)!!!! This is a pretty radically different way from my old approach: Trust entirely or not at all. In the past, I have trusted blindly and then been shocked when I had been let down, when really there was nothing to base my trust on aside from a few kind words and gestures. Moving away from black and white thinking has been pretty tough. Also, since I understand that I am the one who has been seeking out EUMs, it has been pretty difficult for me to not start throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Many men seem like potential EUMs or AC; every small, inconsiderate gesture sets off alarms.
Since I am not dating, I have been attempting to evaluate the interpersonal relationships that I do have in my life: my friendships! An example: I have a great girlfriend that is a sweet, well-meaning, intelligent woman, but she gossips occasionally. She doesn’t do it attack your character, but brings it up if she knows something about you and it pertains to the situation/conversation. In other words, she might bring it up that you had had an incredible one night stand with the mailman (this is an example not a fact 🙂 ) without thinking if you would want her to tell that to a group of strangers, because she was discussing the pros and cons of dating men in the postal service. Or, because she is still friends with him, might give you an update of what an ass your ex EUM is being while with his new gf, to make you feel better, even though you are not comfortable talking about him anymore.
I like her, care about her, and have seen enough evidence over the years that she means well, she just doesn’t think things through sometimes. So I act accordingly, afterall, she can’t read my mind and know what my boundaries are unless I tell her. I let her know the ex EUM is off limits for conversation (the first time I have ever really laid down a boundary), and she has respected it ever since. As for her habit of letting the cat out of the bag? I either let her know what I am telling her is something I don’t want anyone else to know, or I keep it to myself. In other words I know just how much I can trust her, and I can continue can continue to enjoy our relationship, seeing it for what it really is. She and I are both just human. We constantly work on our communication: She is a designer and I am an artist. We soemtimes speak different languages and we make mistakes, but it’s a relationship worth having. In the past, after a few slips or mistakes I may have just ended the relationship, to stay safe, but if I did that everytime soemone wasn’t perfect, I would end up a lonely woman! It shouldn’t be all or nothing.
Thanks for the insight
Jasmine
Jeez what is wrong with people! Talk about frigging indiscreet! Jasmine your friend has no filter and is socially inept. I’m, however, delighted to see how you’ve handled her and if you guys have a healthy, prosperous friendship, more power to you. Obviously watch your back and continue being vigilant about what you share with her but you are a living example of boundaries in action – kudos!
Little Nickle,
You said, “I don’t miss him at all. I don’t wish to communicate with him at all. But, I am hit with these awful pangs of hurt at times when I realize that he treated me much more horribly than I even realized in the moments the worst happened.”
I have felt exactly the same way. It is confusing to me still. It has been 6 months of NC, and I feel so much better, but sometimes I will randomly remember something he did to me and can’t believe how incredibly mean he was. For what? So he didn’t have to tell the truth or so he could manipulate a situation to get his needs met? I feel like I was “emotionally raped”. It hurts still. The depth of cruelty I can’t understand because it doesn’t make any sense. This has been the hardest part for me to let go of. I guess it has made me see the level of selfishness in him and the denial I was in.
Jennynic, you’re trying to rationalise the irrational. Unless you have a window into his mind and think exactly like he does, which would be worrying, you are burning up energy trying to make it all make sense. It doesn’t and it won’t. Some will in time, some might not, but you still have to get on with your life. Believe how mean he was – if you don’t, you will remain in denial and miss the person who is a source of danger and pain.
jennynic, I understand how you feel. Out of no-where it hits you. Something triggers a memory and the cascade of pain, and deceitfulness, and horrible treatment and manipulation flash in your mind. We will not ever be able to understand them, they do not think like most normal, empathetic, caring, true people.
Their mind works differently, they are actors is their lives. Learn all you can about these men. One of these recent posts has a great link for narcissists. It is helpful to learn about how many of them just DO NOT think like a decent caring mature person. We will not ever be able to rationalize their crazy-making stunts. If you can digest that, then IF the memories come back, or contact IS made, the knowledge of who they really are is reaffirmed by those ugly memories or hearing their whiney voice talk trying to get an ego fix. Use that reaffirmation to your advantage.
“The depth of cruelty i can’t understand, because it doesn’t make any sense. This has been the hardest part for me to let go” that has been me too, exactly. I am learning to turn that statement around, follow that feeling and create validation within myself, that HE does not make sense. HE is cruel ( the sick smug smile when he was at his ‘best’ A/C narc behavior), HE is invalid as a kind caring person, HE is fake and HE will not change for anyone. HE continues to try to press the reset-button now with me, even while actively in a new relationship with one of the 2 OW, only two months into her. She will not know what hit her. HE is one to run from, red-flags now visible and waving to me. So turn that feeling around in your head and use it for validation of you. That is how I am slowly recovering from that exact same thought and confusion and sadness. The sadness and confusion are getting shorter and easier to move on from. But I too hate those moments, I guess its part of the whole process??
You said it at the end of your post, see him with clear eyes for who he really is and is not. Go with that, feel it, know it. Your post has helped me, thank you.
To all those who are saying, “I left him, but I feel that he left me….” YEPPERS! That was my feeling. In fact, from reading everyone else’s posts, I WANT to say, “Hey, my guy wasn’t as bad as your guy” but yes, I have to admit, he WAS as bad as your guy. Reading that narcissism blog showed me EXACTLY what I was dealing with. And yes, I have spent ten months trying to rationalize how he acted. I have ten pages of “incidents” I wrote just trying to rationalize it all. And Natalie is right, it cannot be rationalized.
I really need to pay attention to this post, with the yellows, pinks, reds, and stuff, I NEED to pay attention and be aware! Radar……. UP!!!!!
Fearless
I am in the same situation as you, infact every word you wrote could have been written by me.
I have been n/c with my ex (except for a few text that i sent him ) since we split in october, and it has been very hard.
I am still very angry at him, I eventualy dumped him because he over stepped my boundarys from the first day we met, and i let him, now i have woke up to what he was doing to me, ( the cheating, him telling every one he was single, or that i was a ex girlfriend who wouldnt leave him alone) the list is endless, but the fool i was i stayed with him for 3 years.
He has cut me dead now, and this is what hurts the most.
I know that i have to move on and if he is ever going to respect me for the real person i am, I must not give in to contacting him, and start to live by the boundarys that i am now setting for myself.
and also at this time i know that he is fakeing a future with someone else.
Its funny he sent her a email on the day we split that he wanted her and him to start a relationship , get married and have babies.
So yes i have to keep to n/c to let my self heal, he dosent need me to tell him what he did to me, i think he knows and is now laying low.
Hi Jessie, like the others, it’s important to remember him for who and what he is so you don’t hang off the rejection hook. This isn’t about him respecting you – it’s about you respecting you.
I think Natalie sort of….. “hinted” at this one, but didn’t come out directly and say it point blank as much as other reasons…… FAMILY! You aren’t “allowed” to have boundaries around “family.”
I mentioned this as a comment in one of Natalie’s other posts. My Mom would phrase things as “optional” and I would get punished for saying “no.” If she had phrased it as a parental command, I would have obeyed. I have had countless discussions with my Mom on this and she refuses to see the issue and thinks there is no issue. You cannot act like it’s “optional” when there is only one “Right” answer. I told my Mom that my childhood was like a mousie in a maze trying to get the food without getting shocked.
There were other issues, too. Basically, I learned, as Natalie has posted, that MY feelings and needs did not matter. Only the needs that Mom thought I “should” need mattered. Only the feelings that Mom thought I “should” feel, mattered, not the feelings I actually felt. So, I learned to say what she wanted to hear, and basically that became how I related to other people. “Say what people want to hear.” “Be what people want you to be.” It was easier to be alone, because, by being alone, I didn’t have to “fake it.”
And now I can see why I got involved with the recent A/C. He “faked it,” too. But unlike me, he ended up showing his true “colors” later.
JJ2: My mother was the exact same way. She thinks I should anticipate all of her needs without her ever having to tell me DIRECTLY what she wants and because I can’t read her mind, she tells me, “you should have known”.
She has always told me how I should think & feel and I spent my entire life catering to her insane demands to avoid her blowing up at any second (which never worked because she’d always find something else I did to get pissed off about). If I have a genuine problem or crisis, she doesn’t pay it any importance or she cuts me off mid-sentence by telling me that something “worse” happened to her. If it’s not about her, she’ll make it about her. I could never do anything right, but she would brag about me to her friends as though my successes were really her successes. To top it off, she always accused me of lying, even when I wasn’t, so I learned that I had to lie if the truth wasn’t going to sound “believable enough”.
She kept warden-like control over me mentally, emotionally and physically. At 16, I wasn’t allowed to go anywhere afterschool or on weekends, yet I was always accused of having sex with everyone, drinking and using drugs, being a liar, “sneaky” and “full of myself”. I never really had a mother.
I have made the difficult decision that I am drastically limiting my contact with her and if she can’t accept it, I am willing to end ALL contact. I can’t have boundaries, especially with AC/EUM’s/Narcs without having boundaries with her. Gee, no wonder why I accept emotionally abusive behavior from men.
MagicPotion:
Wow! Well, my mom wasn’t the “warden” that yours was, but all the other things you mentioned, yeppers, same here, especially the “my” successes were “her” successes. She had this “need” to say, “My daughter is a………” (fill in the blank with something that sounds really really high level and important!) Well, what if all I did was work at a gas station? Hey, that is still honest work! I guess I disappointed her because I’m not a Condaleeza Rice or similar……
Hi Magic Potion – I just read a book called the Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists and the chapter on parents in it mirrors your description exactly. My own experience is more along the lines of JJ2’s but I really related to and learned a lot from that book. It might be worth picking up if you can. Another book I read that deals with narcissistic men is Loving Men who love themselves. Cheesy cover and title but bang on. Hope it helps!!
Your mom sounds like she has a personality disorder like Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. You’ve probably been set up your whole life to be comfortable with dysfunction. This site might be helpful It goes into the family dynamics with a mother like this and with EUM/AC too.
Thx JJ2, Done & Nikki! Introspection, Books & Websites, Oh My! (thanx for all of your help, ladies!)
It really wasn’t after I was done with the last guy (“The Faucet” Narcissist), that I looked way back into my childhood- not a boundary in sight then, either. I knew something was seriously wrong with my mother’s behavior, but I thought she treated me that way because it WAS my fault somehow. Learning that I wasn’t a “rotten, deceitful, spoiled, lazy,sneaky little brat who can’t do anything right” took a huge weight off my soul. I’ve added narcissism to her untreated manic depression. Ugh.
In spite of the men & family issues, for the first time in my life, I’m seeing evidence that I’m becoming a much stronger person who loves, protects & stands up for herself. The world does not end when you take your boundaries seriously and assert them!
JJ2, I have a pretty dysfunctional family and my mother behaves in very similar ways. It took a long time but I have boundaries. You are allowed to have boundaries with family. Your mother has her own boundaries and ultimately, you’re a grown woman. “If she had phrased it as a parental command, I would have obeyed.” – Yes…if you were a child. You’re not. It is incredibly important to create your own life on your on terms and distance yourself from the image you have of yourself in the context of her and whatever image she has of you. No they don’t like it when you have boundaries but bit by bit they shift and you find a situation you can live with. I have spoken to my mum for 8 months. It’s not ideal but that’s the choice she has made in deciding that my boundaries are not worth respecting. My feelings are valid, yours are valid, and actually even though they are a pain in the ass, our mothers are entitled to their own feelings, even if we don’t agree with them.
Natalie, I am just a stranger to you , but I want to thank you, for your very dedicated efforts to helping women learn how to value themselves.
The information you give on boundries is deeply useful.
I have gotten more strength from your blog than I have from 2 years of counciling. Dec 2 marks my first day of NC.
It is very very hard , because I have no family and few friends and I am not a native of this country. Your blog is holding me up by my bootstrings. I have no idea how a young woman became so wise, but you are unique. Thank you so much, for sharing your strength and wisdom.
I may be alone for Christmas, but my self respect can keep me company.
I consider your work a gift to society, and to me personally.I hope that karma returns your dedication 100 fold and them some for helping people (and women in particular) raise themselves up .
Thank you for helping me hold my head high all on my own this holiday season.
Sincerely and Graciously,
Mel
I agree with Mel 100%.
Ah thanks Mel. What a wonderful comment and thanks for brightening a very wet and windy afternoon. Happy Christmas (((hugs)))
Wonderful post!!! I engaged with my AC for far too long despite his countless behaviors out in the red zone (refusing to talk to me when we’d be out at bars, never calling when he’d say he would, insulting me, extreme future faking then laughing as if I was crazy when I would bring up those “plans,” looking the other way when I would try to talk to him, I could go on).
I always ask myself, “Why did I put up with it?’ and I can never find a good answer. I wanted the validation, definitely, esp. closer to the end when I had realized he was a huge jerk. But for a long time, it wasn’t about that. It was that I sincerely did love him, and thought we had a beautiful connection . He came on very quick out of the gate, telling me I was the most beautiful girl who had ever liked him, and going on shamelessly about how he couldn’t believe a girl like me would be interested in him, etc. And when he would see me, his mouth would literally drop, so I really believed he was crazy for me.
But within 2 weeks, he had told me he couldn’t be with me. He said I was the “most wonderful girl” he’d ever meet, but he couldn’t be with me because he was afraid of falling in love with me when he knew I would inevitably return to my country one day. I suggested that if things worked out between us, I could try to get a job in his country but he said that was completely crazy, and refused to discuss it more.
For the next 3 months, he just played with me, coming up to me in bars and saying shamelessly flirty things in my ear but never letting that go anywhere, hooking up with me only one more time, and mostly just ignoring me and treating me like I didn’t exist. I was too timid, and too intent on “playing it cool” to ever talk to him about what was going on. Then finally one day he was with another girl, and that was the end of that.
Yet, I couldn’t let it go, and switched into Win Him Back mode, and continued to hang out with his group of friends for another year, hoping to win him over – again, without ever talking to him about it directly. Never got him back, but did suffer a lot of pain & abuse.
I just felt for so long that we had this beautiful connection, and I didn’t know how to turn away from that, esp. given his reason. If he had just said, “I don’t care about you like that,” I think I would have been able to move on, but because he made it seem like we could have the most beautiful relationship in the world IF things were different, I felt like I had to fight harder & harder. Meanwhile, he didn’t actually give a crap, and was treating me worse and worse, probably freaked out by this foreign girl who wouldn’t leave him alone.
I would be interested in a post on helping people move on, even when the other person offers a “practical” reason for why they can’t be together. I think too many of us Fallback Girls see that “practical” reason as just an obstacle to overcome, rather than as something to accept.
I wrote about the whole ‘timing’ thing in my ebook Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl. I think ultimately when you get down to breaking into different types of reason, it’s called looking for a reason to continue investing and keeping yourself in denial. Whatever type of reason it is, it boils down to – you cannot be together. Fallback Girls come up with umpteen excuses for why their Mr Unavailable cannot be and do as they would like – excuses are a dangerous part of a relationship. While some will, most people don’t want to get too uncomfortable and say ‘I don’t care about you like that’. Fact of the matter is, I’ve come across thousands of women through this blog that even in hearing those words, they don’t move on. Note you don’t say you *would* move on, you say you *think* you could move on.
Hmm… I agree to an extent, but I think the way he delivered his speech about how much he wanted to be with me but just can’t for fear of falling in love (complete with crocodile tears!!!) was a very strategic manipulation that, because of my Let’s Fix This personality type, had a very strong impact. Esp as I was only recently out of a 7-yr relationship with an extreme EUM who never showed any emotion at all, this guy’s Hot Out the Gate then emotional speech really hit me hard. He knew what he was doing, esp. when at the end of such a long speech, he tried to kiss me, and I said “no, you said we’re finished,” and he said, “No I still want us to be together, let’s just take things more slowly…” Talk about mixed messages!!!!!
That said, I know I was a complete idiot, and you’re right, deluding myself, looking for a reason to hang in there. Further, I also know that I myself have offered guys I just didn’t like “practical” excuses for why we couldn’t be together, when I should have just told them the truth so that they don’t hold on hope.
This website has helped a lot and the idea of Break-Up Boundaries more than anything. With my new boundaries, I now will know how to handle the “Disney-movie messaging” my brain always sends me when dumped; I simply won’t be able to excuse myself for chasing after exes anymore. Thanks Natalie & all the posters on this site!!!!
Nat,
Much of what you have written over the past few weeks has given me better direction. Since going NC (over a month officially now) I’ve been able to step back and concentrate and put my efforts into what’s important for me.
I’ve been able to identify the areas from when I was a child where boundaries was an issue. I was able to identify the roles each of my parents played into the person I am today. I totally recognise where my boundaries have failed, been pushed and where my complicity has played a role in allowing the AC into my life and the circumstances around why that happened at the stage it did.
I find I operate on a daily basis in the yellow zone now. Over the past year I have kicked out the people in my life that drained me emotionally and that were in the pink and red zones. For me it was an easy task. Nothing and I mean nothing has been more liberating than that!
My slip back from NC prior to October and seeing the AC did set me back, however it also liberated me because I had reached critical stage with it all. Even though my meeting with him felt complicated and painful, I was also able to put my boundary in place and tell him that I couldn’t have sex with him because he’s married. That to me was HUGE because I was actually saying NO. I’m quite proud of myself that I did ( no matter what happened and what reactions HE had to it and how he tried to manipulate it afterwards)!
I have now made goals for my life in the immediate future. Things I want to do to improve my life and the person I am. It will mean remaining in that yellow zone, my boundaries on an everyday basis in tact. However, in order to grow and to recognise what other boundaries we need to put in place, surely we have to push ourselves? By this I don’t mean letting people into our lives that have the potential to hurt us but placing ourselves in situations that can enrich our lives – stepping outside the box – if you know what I mean?
What I don’t want to happen is to have a life that’s not colourful and rich with experience that helps me to grow. I’m not ready to date yet, actually, I change that, I just don’t want to date because I have other priorities, family and career that come first for now.
Can we test our own boundaries?
Absolutely Leigh – your boundaries are your own to test – it’s up to you to know your limits. It’s also important to note that your life will be no less rich with experience because of having healthy boundaries. Having lots of drama in your life because you don’t respect yourself with boundaries isn’t colourful or rich – it’s dangerous. Well done with all of the hard work you’ve done with yourself. Keep going.
@Fearless and Little Nickle: Wow, you have both come a long way since nc and you have very good insight. i know what you mean regarding nc. i was only with my guy for 4 months but it was all the eu behaviour. I was in pieces over the treatment, so i really admire you for “keeping it together” after long term relationships with these guys. I am nc too (i do see him once a week as we’re in a group) but i still feel like i’m in bit of a wildneress. i ended it mid November. I am glad he isn’t contacting me, though, but i would like him to say “sorry” to me for messing me about. When i finished it with him i told him to be honest with himself, he’s not ready for this rs and look into his heart. I find it just frustrating to not get an apology. I suppose he’s not saying sorry cos he doesn’t realise the impact of his behavouir on me eventhough i told he he was causing me pain. i know i must try and get past my feelings of frustration but it’s hard. any tips on how to move past this feeling of frustration?
Audrey, he’s not saying sorry because he doesn’t feel he has to. A lot of these types will not apologise for fear of admitting to more than they want to. Stop looking for an apology because you may be old and grey and STILL it won’t have happened. It is what it is. You know it and that’s all that counts. Even when someone knows they’ve done wrong, it doesn’t mean ipso facto an apology is on the way. It *is* annoying that he messed you around but if you focus on him and an apology, you will never move on. Let it be. Remember all the reasons why you’re not with him and do your own closure.
Oh Natalie! That is it really: he doesn’t feel he has to!! I know you are right and deep down I know that is the truth too. thank you so much for your response. it helps to clear things up in my own mind. . i must let it be. xoxo. i’m not grey yet but if i keep thinking about him, i will be!!! LOL.
audrey
i did get an apology from the ex, who then went on to treat me worse than before. we would all like to think that an apology, a debrief, a call, an explanation, a last shag, a friendship etc would make a difference. it won’t because they are still the same person.
yes people do change. i am in the process of it myself but it has taken me about forty years, a psychiatrist, a number of different counsellors and five years of celibacy.
im guessing your EUM hasn’t put in that kind of work since you last saw him.
“im guessing your EUM hasn’t put in that kind of work since you last saw him.” Grace, that line made me snort my tea up my nose with laughter!
Im having a hard time finding wich my boundaries are.I guess that all my life I never had them(no wonder that I felt used by a lot of people) so is hard to come up with some now.I have a tedency to chase people around and do their part on the relationship so that should be a boundary? But then that would be a boundary for me and not for other people.Wich kind of boundaries I should put for other people? As you can see all that is still a bit confusing for me.
Anusha, the boundaries are for you. People staying outside your boundaries is a side effect. You’re not setting the boundaries for them – you’re doing it to give yourself limits to your behaviour. This means that in future you sit tight instead of chasing people around – your boundary is that you don’t run after people seeking validation and doing their part in the relationship.
Damn,
Smack my self in the forehead light bulb I should have gone to spec savers moment.
Sit still! Stop chasing, stop phoning,stop texting stop emailing, stop begging someone to want you STOP STOP STOP.
You know, I started NC Dec 2 because your blog said to, but even though I am doing it, I really didnt realize what I was actually REALLY doing until I just read that response.
I have been buzzing around like a blue arsed fly for 2 years , buzzing over the same pile of shit. This shit pile is so old, it dosnt even have any steam on it . Yet Im flying over it like I am gonna get some heat and keep warm ..
Meanwhile, said pile of shit has long since disintegrated .
So, I am flying over a pile of ghost shit.
Funny, Doing NC, because I did not know what else to do, but it has only just really hit me, I AM DOING THIS FOR ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not to hurt him to show him what he is missing by letting me go so easy… This is to truly free myself and get another chance at living life with people who respect me, if it is only friends so be it, but If I am to get involved again, watch the boundries, the FLAGS, and act with true love for me!!!
aweeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Thanks Anusha and Natalie!!!!!!!!!!
I got rid of an assclown (of the most vicious and manipulative kind!) in January, after a dramatic 6 months which felt like 6 years. I don’t even want to think back, that’s how bad it was.
For me, it ended with an absolute vacuum of emotions. I hurt and cried so much that I think my brain got into some kind of shock and switched off emotions completely. The AC stalked me until June and tried to make me feel guilty for ‘abandoning’ him, after I had blocked him on Facebook, email and phone. This was my first encounter with an AC and the whole experience left me devastated.
After I recovered and opened my heart again, I met another EUM/AC in July. I thought he was shy and didn’t have the best social skills, but he genuinely didn’t seem to mean badly. He’s an engineer and social clumsiness is rather common in those circles. And there was a lot of good stuff too (he is smart, we share the same humour, etc).
This EUM turned into an AC after he realized I actually made him FEEL things. Imagine that! Also, I never put up with him blowing cold. I told him it doesn’t make me feel comfortable and if there was something wrong it would be best to address it and move on. He came up with multiple excuses for cold blowing: he was always very busy or he had some important hobby that he needed to pursue. But he took the time every time to write me a lengthy sorry email (blowing hot again). Well, it all just got increasingly dysfunctional. I started feeling like a mum that needs to be very careful and understanding in order not to trigger some kind of panic attack in this sensitive and shy man-child. After the n-th failure to live up to his promises, I told him that I was disappointed and he got into some kind of anger fit. After he had his say on chat, he went offline before I could say something. Pfff! He couldn’t discuss things and just hid like a little kid. So I sent him an email that I don’t want this anymore, I deleted him off all social media, and have been NC ever since.
So I got two ACs in a row. Bummer. The positive thing is that I learned from the first one and was able to set better boundries with the second one (I protected most, although I still crossed some.. too many if I am honest). But it got me thinking why I hang around these guys for too long. I think it’s for a couple of reasons.
As a strong, independent woman, I am often afraid to be perceived as too bitchy, too carreer focused. I know that I am not, and it is not a matter of being EITHER successfull OR loving, but somehow this little voice in the back of my head keeps telling me that I should be more understanding of other people’s flaws. Translated into reality I guess it means to put up with more BS. My friends sometimes throw snappy remarks at me such as ‘we cant all be perfect like you’. They mean these things as a compliment, but they come out rather half assed and hostile and make me feel insecure / like some social retard.
Second, I am a bit afraid that there are not so many men out there for me. Because I am successful, I think few men will feel confident enough / will be fun enough for me. So paradoxally I just lower my standard for those who seem to qualify. It’s not rational, it’s fear… I know.. *sigh*
Also, because I generally don’t feel like a victim, I want control over my life. I would feel very bad if I let trivial ‘circumstances’ (busy at work, geographical distance) get the best of me. So I guess I try a bit harder because I am generally capable to accomplish things.
I can handle disappointment (=not being happy with the outcome of a situation) but I can’t handle regret very well (=not being happy with what you did, knowing that you could have done something to change the outcome). I think these ACs try to trigger feelings of regret within us. They did that with me at least: they never looked at their own actions but always blamed me and blew up something minor into a huge problem, in order to divert attention from their own ACness.
With my two ACs, I noticed that as soon as I understood that there is NOTHING I could have said or done to change things, I could let them go. I stopped blaming myself, I stopped feeling a helpless victim to the ‘circumstances’, and I started protecting myself from being victimized by the AC in question. From time to time, it still hurts a bit though.. 🙁
NML, thank you so much for your blog, and all ladies and gentlemen here for their insightful comments. They have enspired me and confirm what I knew all along: that I am not a selfish and bad person. Actually I guess I m too nice and try to overplease people. And I came to realize that my strengths can be manipulated into weaknesses by an AC if I let them.
Thank you all again. When one is temporarily sad and insecure, and has been emotionally abused by ACs into feeling like the villain, it helps to hear from someone else that you are not the perpetrator, or as the first AC so lovingly put it ‘a cold hearted, crazy bitch’.
Oh I’m so ready for a non-EUM/AC..
Dia, we all have flaws, but there are flaws and then there are flaws. Recognising that some behaviour is completely unacceptable means that you can live harmoniously with others who do have flaws but who don’t abuse. You are well shot of that idiot anyway!
Thanks NML 🙂
Btw: I didnt want to boast how great I am or anything. My success makes me feel extremely lonely actually, I curse sometimes that I am not ‘normal’.
Some of my friends think they can criticize / insult me in whatever way they like because they think I m strong and can handle it. But they never consider my feelings. I m just some kind of object they can vent their frustration on about what they consider fair. Like I got it all for free.. They conveniently forget how hard I worked for all I have, while they were out partying. I still remember how they made fun of me for not going out with them and studying instead.
What they say makes me feel really small.. like I should be ashamed of my success and accommodate all emotionally less fortunate people in this world (the ACs, I m involved in charity organizations for economically less fortunate people so they don’t make comments about that).
You know what… I think they would actually like me to get dragged down by an AC. Some of my so called friends told me to put up with the ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE flaws of AC1 (like going back to his ex while we were together), because it would help him. They said it would be selfish of me to leave as he was obviously an emotionally disturbed person and it would only cause him more stress.. What about me?!!
I just realized they purposefully abused my insecurity. OMG! They knew how terrible he was up front. Why didnt they warn me? And after I told them how much I suffered, how could they give me such advice / such a guilt trip and cause me to suffer more and longer?! I ve only been nice to them, never mistreated them and always turned the other cheek when they threw me another jealous jab or frustrated insult!!
Well, no more I say! I will set and protect my boundries from now on! And if they don’t like it, there is the door. Take your nasty comments and p*** off. Their acceptance is not worth to loose my self esteem.
I have a question: what do you do when such frenemies come up to you at some party and act like best friends. Should you socialize with them, pretend nothing is wrong and quietly go to someone else? Or should you make clear you are not as close as they pretend to be and ask them to back off a bit? How do you do that exactly?
I usually feel uncomfortable to protect my boundries as I m afraid it might be perceived as drama or something.. there is the same and guilt again popping up.
And indeed good riddens for that idiot.. but I’m still sad that it didnt work out. That damn UM should have manned up, but he preferred to take the easy way out and become an AC. Disgusting. Pah!
Sorry for the long post, and thanks for letting me vent. I just keep thanking you but… really: Thank you so much for being you and having this wonderful blog. You rescued my sanity and gave me a piece of mind. I can look into the future again, instead of dwelling on the past and feeling ashamed of myself.
Regarding boundaries: it is true that putting boundaries in place and standing up for yourself can lose you friends. I had a falling out with a friend who i had known for 13 years earlier this year. Basically, she thought it was ok to say something extremely personal which she knew would hurt my feelings (i even told her it had hurt my feelings so it wasn’t like she didn’t know) and not apologise for it and she thought she could continue our “friendship”. I told her i could not be friends with her anymore if she could not see how she hurt me and because she didn’t see the need to apologise. Well, she finally did apologise when she realised i was “serious” and that i was making a stand. At that stage, her apology meant nothing to me. She should have apologised way earlier but she didn’t cos she thought she could still get away with busting my boundaries!
So, there will be consequences for standing up for yourself but it is important to “stick to your guns” and don’t let the other person sway you so that you doubt yourself and the other person will try and put the blame on you and make YOU feel bad.
But i truly believe that a “true” friend would NOT overstep a boundary like that anyway. My other friends who would not have dreamt of saying what my former friend said.
And i have learnt that I left her off the hook in the past about little comments she would make that i didn’t like but i didn’t have the gumption to say it to her (as i know she can be quite cutting) and i didn’t want DRAMA. So, I think we may all have people in our lives who overstep the boundaries “a little bit” and we let them away with it; but, just be aware of people like that in your life because one day they may ver well “jump that fence” completely.
After reading this I have to take a hard look at myself. I have no boundaries with anyone. Family, friends, and ex’s have all used me. I find that I can’t say no to people. I don’t get why. I get validation by making them happy yet none of them try to make me happy… I need to set up some boundaries for everyone and fast as I’m being dragged down in all ways.
I dated a guy for 3 years. We fought non-stop. It was a horrible relationship but I couldn’t leave him. I felt bad plus I didn’t want to be alone. Well to teach me a lesson he left me. Told me to go out with my friends so he could pack and leave. So I did. I had just been laid off from my job so to him I wasn’t needed anymore. When i got home that night he was gone. We went back and forth for months. He wanted me back. He just wanted to teach me a lesson. (but he only wanted me back when I got a new job). I’ve had NC with him 7 months.
I stayed single for a year after that relationship. No dating at all. I was content in my life and happy. Then I met the last guy. We dated long distance for 3 months. Red flags EVERYWHERE. But i chalked it up to the situation he was living in. He decided to move to the area I lived in (where he grew up) and in with me. Yes way to soon after only 3 months but I did it. I gave it my all. i bought him EVERYTHING he wanted. I never said no. He kept “trying” to find a job. I supported him for 3 months. He paid nothing. In a matter of 3 months I burned through all my savings plus some. Needless to say he took me broke. I broke down and told him he HAD to get a job and help out. That monday when i was at work he moved out and moved back to where he was before. No goodbye. No nothing. When i finally talked to him he said “i need to find myself and i can’t be with anyone till that happens”.
Its been 6 weeks since he left. I’m still hurt beyond works can explain. My friends are sick of hearing about it. Thanks to this site I’ve had NC except asking him for some money back that he owed me (which was barely anything compared to what I spent). But he was able to walk away from me like i was nothing. Like I never existed. I know 6 months isn’t a long time but I feel so used, betrayed, and worthless. We talked about getting married and kids (which i never talked about with any other guy). I feel like when he left he took away my hopes and dreams.
It doesn’t help that 2 weeks after he left my father passed away. I feel when i grieve for my dad I get lonely and then I think of the ex. Its a vicious cycle that I’m trying to get out of.
Maybe its because I didn’t set those boundaries up in the first place. Maybe I’m just rambling on right now (but it feels really good to get it out).
So I guess I need to figure out my boundaries and start applying them to my every day life and just keep going on with the NC. Just hate that he can forget me so easy when he is all I think about at times..
Thanks for letting me vent.
Kristy, I’m sorry that you’re in so much pain and for the loss of your father. I already see a pattern of money in your situations and I would really tackle this area because it seems that you are in situations where your ‘partners’ use you. I think you need to focus on grieving the loss of your father. I also think that you are treating this as if you have done something wrong because you asked him to step up. A decent guy would have wanted to. However the terms and conditions of the relationship changed and he didn’t want to be on those terms. You think about him all the time because you are in pain. He’s not. That’s not the same as thinking about someone in a healthy way. Keep grieving your losses and ultimately learn from these situations. You cannot buy love and having a job or money shouldn’t be a dominant factor in a relationship.
to Natalie: yeah, i’m trying to get water from an empty well aren’t I? I’m going to take on board what you said to Little Nickle – remember what he is, and not be in denial about his true nature. i know i’ll get there. xoxo.
Another great post, NML! My problem with boundaries (other than previously not having them) was that I tried too hard to make other people responsible for maintaining them, instead of taking responsibility for myself. I thought if I showed the AC my hurt and pain, he would act decently. Instead, he took my lack of boundaries as license to do what he wanted. I now know it is up to me to establish and enforce my boundaries.
Another issue I had with boundaries was thinking they were the same as walls and that they kept people out. I thought the road to real intimacy was through tearing down all walls between us. Again, now I see that there is a critical difference between boundaries and walls. I had to erect so many protective walls because I kept getting hurt due to my lack of boundaries.
The final piece of the puzzle I am working on now is how to have and enforce boundaries without going overboard. In the wake of resigning after failed mediation, I can see that my “attack” on the AC (calling him an AC) was me trying desperately to create and protect my boundaries in a very dramatic example of “too little, too late” . In hindsight, and with greater maturity, I can now see that the professional, responsible thing to have done would have been to simply maintain a cool, professional distance, not engage in any type of personal conversation and never have anything resembling a debrief with him. I had allowed my anger and frustration over his very bad treatment of me (which I admit I allowed or tolerated) to override my professionalism and when I saw the only opportunity I was ever going to get to tell him what I really thought of him, I took it. Not smart. Not necessary. And ultimately not who I want to be. It was never my responsibility to change him or teach him his lessons. It was only my responsibility to learn my own lessons, protect my boundaries and maintain my self-respect. A very very painful and difficult lesson to learn, as I pack up my work and home and head into an uncertain future, but clearly a lesson I really needed to learn.
I really think that virtually all of my major relationship issues stem from a lack of boundaries and the beliefs I held that caused me to think I shouldn’t have boundaries. I continue to work on correcting the beliefs, integrating healthy boundaries into my life without going overboard and rebuilding the self-esteem and self-care that I need to go forward and make better choices.
Thanks for the guidance.
Fearless:
I am in the exact position as you are (not 10 yrs though, just a few months). But also since being NC for about 4 months now, he hasn’t tried to reach me and that still hurts, though I am also happy that it makes it easier to move on that way. I do wonder sometimes, who went NC, him or me? I guess we both walked away. I feel in a way that I still want closure but I know only I can give this to myself, and contacting him would only bring more pain. – sigh-
I have no intention of contacting him, though I do have a few revenge fantasies I know I won’t ever fulfill (I always told him I’m not the crazy-girl type, guess he’s use to dating that type…red flag?) Anyways, I feel the best revenge is doing well. We have mutual friends and I intend on being myself with everyone as I was before. Though now, this time, my boundaries are finally up and now I know what I want, I didn’t before since I had been in a long 5 year relationship and was almost new to this dating game.
I’m working on myself and that’s it, doing well, looking well, and most of all, I’m happy with myself- took a while but I’m ok with it!!
I had lowered all my boundaries because the ex had pursued me with such insistence. For the first time, someone seemed head-over-heels and I was SO excited to be chased, I dismissed every pang in my gut.
After reading Natalie’s “Walking Through Your Relationship” exercise, I dug up the first few emails between me and the ex, and I’m astounded at our pace. Lightning speed. His declarations of love after… 1 week. Marriage proposal after… 2 weeks. Then retreating. Then returning. Months of drama.
It was a dizzying merry-g0-round. No matter how often I jumped off, I fell hard. When we would break no contact, I jumped back on, and it ALWAYS took me full circle.
My therapist had concerns that I would lower my boundaries again, so I wrote a mantra for the times I feel sad or stuck, and I encourage all the girls on here who feel confused to do the same. If you are empowered by Natalie’s posts, then fuse the bits together and write your very own Personal Relationship Commandments. It’s been a heard journey, but the only way out is through.
Nat – thank you for this and your last blog. They are issues I’ve been giving a lot of thought to over the past few months. It’s a real eye-opener to discover that the boundary issues exist beyond – and probably even predate, romantic entanglements. The best thing about not dating for a while has been the objectivity with which I am now able to see sweeping patterns in my life – with friends, family and romances. Although all the drama and no contact had been exceedingly painful (as everyone here has talked about in their posts), I am actually kind of grateful for it because it has finally opened my eyes and forced me to take a look at how I have been living my life. This in turn, is a chance to root out old patterns and ways of thinking and begin to turn things around. I have really appreciated your insights along the way. Happy 2011.
Speaking of boundaries and “zones,” Ladies (and maybe the few men posting), don’t ever do what I did with the recent A/C: “take one for the relationship.” I’ll never do that again.
I forgot what specifically I said, but I had made a comment similar to “wow, the sun is really yellow today” and I got accused of being “condescending.” HUH? Well, I didn’t know any better, so I decided to “take one for the relationship.” I apologized for my “grievous error.” Well, the A/C told me that was what made him really fall in love with me. He said I diffused what could have elevated to a fight. He was impressed. So, of course, I felt thrilled.
That incident set me up to always be blamed for all HIS “issues.”
If you get forced into feeling like you are “taking one for the relationship,” OPT OUT NOW! That should be on your “red zone” list (or whichever zone you interpret).
“If you get forced into feeling like you are “taking one for the relationship,” OPT OUT NOW! That should be on your “red zone” list (or whichever zone you interpret).”
Well put! Gee, that has been all of my relationships all my life…Now adding that one to my list of boundaries- “Refuse To Be Scapegoat To Smooth Things Over/ Avoid A Fight”.
I have been in a really strange mood lately. Sort of depressed and sad and unsure of what to do or even what is really wrong. I also notice I start overeating when I get like this. This post has me thinking about what I have put up with and why. I had always believed the idea that we teach other people how to treat us, but that it was really up to others what they will do or not do. You can’t make someone love you, you can’t make someone do anything. But that’s not boundaries. I get what you mean when you talk about boundaries. It’s not telling others what to do, its just saying I won’t put up with this and if you keep doing it, you can’t be around me any more. I don’t know why I had not thought of it that way before. I have spent my life letting men do what they wanted because I thought you couldn’t tell others what to do or expect them to behave in a particular way. It never occurred to me that I could just tell someone to stop doing something, mostly because I was never really prepared to do anything about it if they didn’t want to stop. I don’t know if I have ever had my needs met in a relationship. Sometimes I’m not even sure what my needs are. I don’t do married or attached people. I would never let a guy hit me or threaten me, but that’s not enough, is it? In my last relationship, most of the time I was miserable and didn’t feel I could do anything about it. I tried telling him he was hurting me or needed to apologize, but when he didn’t, I didn’t do anything. I see now that that’s not having no boundaries. No wonder he felt he could get away with murder – I WAS LETTING HIM!! It’s not about expecting them to change what they are doing, it’s about having the strength myself to say I won’t tolerate this or I need something from you and then being willing or able to do something about it if they don’t meet my needs. I have focused on him and his blame and what he did wrong, but I guess I did alot wrong too. I let him get away with it, even if I complained about how he was treating me alot. If I am going to complain, I also have to back it up with action. It’s hard to know when to call it quits. I was always taught that relationships are work and that you don’t just give up. Still, there has to be a point when it’s not worth it. Like being miserable all the time, or being the only one who is working on it.
Sorry if I’m rambling but all this is new to me and I am trying to work it out as I go. He still makes me so mad some times. I know I don’t want him around any more but it hurts how fast he replaced me and how little he seems to care about me. I have been mourning this relationship for months and he seems to not miss me at all. How can they do that?
Sammi, from what I understand, guys process emotions differently from women. The A/C I dated couldn’t understand why I didn’t “compartmentalize” stuff like he did. Basically, for me, if the relationship sucks, my whole life sucks. He couldn’t understand that. For the most part, women don’t really “compartmentalize” like men do (but I know that some can…..).
By the way, how do we “communicate” boundaries to people? Maybe a topic for Natalie (or maybe she already wrote it and I missed it). Do we “Bite their heads off” like the guy did to me? Or do we just politely say, “I don’t like that…”? My experience is…. If I’m “polite” they think, “Oh, I can just keep on doing it, she won’t really fuss…..” But I don’t want to bite their head off…..
All of this stuff about boundries….
Why is it that boundries come natural to some people and seem to be totally absent in others???
For me, personally, I never had a boundry respected to me in my childhood , ever. I was raised that children were to be seen and not hear, I was abused by both parents and both sets of step parents.
The things that happened to me that I had no control over as a child,
left me feeling helpless and unloved and in the way!.The very people who were to make me feel secure and valued did completely the opposite.
With my first marriage, I had my thumb broken by my then husband, and then went to my step father for advice (er…..hello? he abused me too!!) and I was just told that I had 2 kids to think about…And it was my decision…You made your bed. now you gotta lay in it kind of attitude..
Message? Ah, you still dont matter enough to be defended.
And truthfully, most of what happened to me in my first marriage didnt seem so bad after what happened to me as a kid.
Single for a decade, finally remarried.
Choose a guy who was nearly 50 never married no kids, ( I was 38) My kids were grown.
Oh the red flags that were waving, but I could not see them. He was sooo there for me emotionally, seriously, but had a big problem with not getting his own way.Willing to listen to me until the cows came home, (something I had never ever had in my life so I thought because he was so different in that aspect I had finally gotten it right)
Wrong.
We had a row, and my wrist got broken in that row. Not because he snapped it with his hand or anything, but because in trying to push him off me, i punched the floor. He reminded me of this many times, he did not break my wrist, I broke it trying to punch him. I felt guilty, maybe it was my fault.
then another row, I was being pushed away to shut me up, he didnt want to hear, another row, i was shoved on the bed, pinned down and had my face spat in. Now that sounds absolutely disgusting, but……..
when i was 5, I was picked up by the scruff of my neck like a puppy and had my face rubbed in vomit on the floor where I had been sick.
So, weight it up, puke, spit? Ill take the spit!!!!! (no boundries)
no clue about boundries, and I must admit, I am still fairly fucking cluess but im MAD, and I want to learn how to life a happy good life with out violence and most of all know know deep down in my soul that I deserve to be treated better.
I do believe I have a long road ahead of me, But Awareness if the first step isnt it?
This blog leads women to Awareness Natalie.
Your work is extremely valuable. And to think you do this , dedicate all this time for a bunch of faceless texting lost souls…..
bless.
I am sorry for the atrocious spelling and missing punctuation and lack of capitalization in my reply.
That’s what happens when you stay up (unable to stop) reading this blog site until 4 am and type out your thoughts in response.
I will try to be more careful in the future so that I don’t appear totally ignorant.