Over the years, many a reader has claimed that they’ve been emotionally available to an emotionally unavailable partner. Here’s the thing:
If we are truly emotionally available and want to keep our integrity and basically not be met with tumbleweeds or the equivalent of, “What? What was that? You’re breaking up…” or even a ‘dead ringtone’, why are we choosing to be emotionally available to somebody who is afraid of intimacy, commitment, progression, balance, and consistency?
Why are we claiming to be emotionally available to somebody who doesn’t want to ‘hear’ us and ‘feel’ us to the level of which we’re claiming that we’re available?
One of the things I’ve learned from experience and also through the stories of BR readers, is that when we habitually engage with an emotionally unavailable person, even if we started out available, in the context of this involvement, we adjust ourselves. It may be conscious, it might be unconscious, but we do.
We can pick up on cues that indicate that certain subjects or situations are not a good idea.
We edit ourselves.
Let’s be real: If we’ve been raised in an environment with a lot of tension or where feelings or discussions were a no-no, or where we’ve gotten into the habit of being a pleaser, we can be pretty damn adept at reading a room or reading for what we feel are signs of tension, and then adjusting ourselves.
What do you do when you feel as if you’re putting yourself out there with somebody who at one point, was all over you like a rash or certainly giving the impression of availability, and now they seem to be stepping back by quietly or even aggressively putting up walls? You become more guarded and stop being as honest and vulnerable as you were before.
I know it feels as if we’re being available to these people because we’re so there or we’re quite frankly suffering in the relationship whether it’s privately as we struggle with our inner turmoil over the situation or out in the open as we battle with them, but there’s a difference between being available for battle and being available for a mutually fulfilling [emotionally] available relationship. I’ve had people insist on how available they are. What are they available for? Sex, ego stroking, last minute arrangements, filling in the gap between this person’s relationships, being taken advantage of.
That’s not being available; that’s being availed of.
The Baggage Reclaim crew (Or are we a tribe or a gang? Or something else?) is full of people who say that they want love, commitment, the whole shebang, but it’s time to ask ourselves when we have a recurring pattern of being with unavailable folk or we have hitched our wagon to the person who doesn’t want to budge from their position because their ‘ole commitment feet are set in concrete:
Why do we want to commit to the person who doesn’t want to commit? Why do we claim that we’re committed to people who may offer the least likely possibility of commitment?
There’s no such thing as a one-sided committed relationship.
How can we be in a committed relationship with somebody who is essentially leaving us hanging? Aren’t we just setting ourselves up to fail? Aren’t we making love into a battle for supremacy?
Why do we want to communicate with partners who don’t want to communicate?
Why do we want a relationship with the person who has made it patently clear that they are only in it for the sex or whatever?
Why do we want to settle down with somebody who is already in a relationship or married?
Why is it that we feel that we’re being at our most ‘available’ and vulnerable in an unavailable relationship?
Surely, if we truly wanted to be available and vulnerable, we would engage with people who want to expand and evolve emotionally with us?
There’s no real risk in us doing what we’ve done before, especially if it keeps us ‘safe’, it gives us an iron-clad alibi for the things that we feel are wrong with the world that have prevented us from doing differently, and it also allows us to secretly accept failure from the outset and corroborate an existing narrative.
When we truly seek to know and love ourselves, to be emotionally available and to have a mutually fulfilling relationship, we have to “meet” people in the sense that yes, we do need to be vulnerable in order to be and do all of these things but when we do it with like-minded folk, it is far more fulfilling. This is different to making ourselves ‘available’ in some pretty excruciating ways in the hopes that if they realise that we’re always there that they’ll either feel bad about their actions towards us or for not feeling the same as us, and then give us what we want. Do we really want to guilt somebody into doing the “right” thing?
At some point, we have to have a very honest conversation with ourselves and what we may find in amongst our fears is a fear of failure and of course, a fear of rejection.
We’re procrastinating in unavailable relationships.
By waiting around for others, we avoid having to put ourselves out there. By getting ‘overqualified’ in unavailable relationship experiences, it’s about fear of not being “good enough” as if to say that if we put in enough hours and get a degree in trying to figure out others, that we’ll eventually be worthy of either a relationship with them or a relationship with available people. We keep trying to prove that we’re worthy.
Of course if we persist at what we’re doing, we just wind up depleting our self-esteem.
Unavailable relationships and basically any relationship where we don’t truly get to be us and live, is really about hiding out and fear of being ‘seen’. We don’t run the risk of being us (we fear allowing somebody to get close enough to us that they won’t like what we’ve already been judging us for) and we get to avoid taking responsibility for how we feel and continue to feel, because we can focus on what the other person is doing or our so-called imperfections. We can also find that we move from unavailable to unavailable relationship because we don’t have to see things through and because we’re afraid that if we stay that we’ll get closer and then something will go wrong and we can’t cope with the uncertainty.
Once we bring awareness into the equation though and recognise our true needs and desires rather than letting fear (one of a number of emotions not our only emotion or the most important one) run the show, we can be more conscious in choosing actions and partnerships that chime with those true needs and desires, instead of being and doing things that take us away from these and who we truly are. When we raise ourselves up and come from a higher level of awareness, we will not persist in relationships that bring us down and dim our light.
Your thoughts?
Updated: You can now listen to We’ve got to stop procrastinating in unavailable relationships, on Soundcloud.
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“This is different to making ourselves ‘available’ in some pretty excruciating ways in the hopes that if they realise that we’re always there that they’ll either feel bad about their actions towards us or for not feeling the same as us and give us what we want. Do we really want to guilt somebody into doing the “right” thing?
At some point, we have to have a very honest conversation with ourselves and what we may find in amongst our fears is a fear of failure and of course, a fear of rejection.”
Brilliant post! As one BR reader pointed out to me about a month ago – I wanted to WIN. To prove that I would stand by him thru thick and thin. That I was loyal. That I’d always be there for him. Maybe he’d feel bad for being such a douche. Hoping he’d see I was worthy. But there was no “winning”, there was no thick…only thin! Crumbs, little or no effort, lazy communication, occasional hook-ups that only led to more confusion and left me with zero self-esteem. For what? A guy who showed me in 10,000 ways that I meant nothing to him. Why would I (or anyone) want to be with someone you have to guilt or nag into hanging out with you?
I lost myself in trying to figure him out. And became completely unavailable myself. DING-DING-DING Epiphany!!!!
Another great post with PERFECT timing.
I really think you are my twin figuringitout. I, too, lost myself in trying to figure him out. And he was so horrible. I have been doing really, really well working on myself. Haven’t slept with the guy or even had much communication since last September.
Then comes this past Sunday…a knock on door. He was walking….wanted to know if I had coffee. We had a chat, friendly, with a few odd statements/actions thrown in by him, but after he left I felt good that we could just be “friends.”
Fast forward to four hours later. Another knock on my door. He comes in dressed to the nines. Has an event in 30 minutes to attend, but thought perhaps he could f_ _ _ me first. It would only take him 8 minutes.
I told him to get out of my house. His exact words “Are you offended by this?” I said “I am. Very much so. I’m worth more than 8 minutes of your time. You’ve done this in the past….you sleep with me for 30 minutes and then you’re out the door and on to the next event to impress some woman and/or sleep with the next one. So yes, I am insulted. You need to leave my house.” And he did leave.
I don’t know if I have ever been so angry. And where I felt good is in the fact that years ago if he had done this, I would have never turned him down. But I have really, really worked on respecting and loving myself for the past 7 months and as I get stronger and reflect on the past, I realize what a scam artist, skirt chasing, lier and snake that he is.
Wow…no more opening any doors to let him in..never, ever again.
Wow! What a creep. Sounds like he was warming you up and testing the waters with the little coffee routine. Good for you for giving him a piece of your mind!!
Hopefully he never shows up again!
I found myself opening a window instead of the door the other week, to answer a knock I didn’t want literally – you should of seen the surprise on his face – it was priceless – he wasn’t expecting it, he didn’t know what to do with himself for a few minutes then continued, not to redeem himself, as per form, and so i think you have the right idea – some people just can not get the message even if you think it is loud and clear.
Rewind, my mouth dropped at this post! What???!
I immediately did not like the coffee visit, and thought you were too accommodating, which says you still want to be validated by him. But the second visit —!— he is a self-serving sociopath. He WANTS to make you feel worthless, and you keep opening your door to him. I don’t understand why you allow any contact. I don’t understand why you don’t immediately shut the door in his face. And your explanation to him was way too long, in my view. It makes it seem like if he would just give you 35 minutes, he’d be in your good graces!
But you did the right thing for yourself, telling him to get out.
And you know what? He is a pitiful soul. I’ve had a guy get all dressed up and “stop by unexpectedly for a minute” to make me feel insecure about his plans with another woman…I did not care at all. They do this when they see they’ve lost their hold on you, and they try to push the “make her jealous” button. But I don’t play games, and I remember wanting out of that relationship because he seemed so junior high school in how he related to women. Wow, I just now remembered something about him….about 3 years after I dumped him, I got an invite to a wedding from a woman I did not know. Reading it, it was him, the junior-high-school mentality guy, who was getting married, and I was on the invitee list I am sure as some kind of payback-aren’t-you-jealous-see-what-you-missed motive. I RSVP’d for two, and then I did not go. I wish I could say that was my plan, but the day of the wedding I asked myself – why am I going to this? – and instead I went rollerblading.
Don’t ever talk to his guy again. I don’t want to hear any excuses. Don’t take his calls, don’t let him in, don’t respond to texts, don’t let him use the bathroom. He is dead to you.
Hello Elgie R,
I know this was not for me. I read your POST and I just appreciate the LOVE you have sent out to REWIND. This is why I read these posts. It is helping me HEAL. This is stern advice laced with LOVE!
I agree with you and I would plant a pump up his *** if he bothers her again. LOL. He has been officially DISMISSED. Stage left do not come back. Hit the road jack don’t you come back no more!
Rewind, I just had another thought that I had to add.
HE does something offensive, then asks if YOU are offended. That is totally to bait you into defending yourself to him. Don’t fall for that! Let him own his behavior, don’t make it about YOUR reaction to his behavior. He gets the joy of seeing he can still upset you.
But don’t try to play it cool either, and say “No, I’m not offended.” You should feel offense. But you put that negativity right back where it belongs – on him. Tell him “YOU are being offensive, and you want to know if I am offended. What I AM, is DONE.” Then you tell him to leave.
But all of that can only happen if Superman speeds around the world fast enough to turn back time…so….just file this away under “wish I had said that”.
You know what my pattern is….to feel guilty after HE has done something offensive. And then I would text or email him and I would apologize. He doesn’t have the capacity or willingness to ever say sorry. BUT THIS TIME…I am done falling for his “friendly” visits, followed by sexual texts or, in this case, coming over expecting a quicky.
I will admit I have stayed friends with him because, yes, I do seek validation. But guess what…every single time I let him back in, he does everything possible to prove I will never have his validation. And now, I don’t care if I have it or not. I have tons of friends and family that give me validation every day.
One more important point….he is a narcisstic, sociopath SO textbook that I truly do believe he reads about the condition and conducts his life accordingly. I once had a therapist tell me that perhaps he isn’t “aware” of how hurtful he is being to women. Bullshit. He knows EXACTLY what he is doing.
Oh..and as far as my pattern, be sure that I did not text or email to apologize this time. And will never have the temptation to do so in the future because there is no future, no more texts, no more emails, no more coffee time.
My only regret is that he does this over and over again to women and unfortunately they will have to learn just like me. It’s painful.
Rewind, my mouth dropped too. But I think you have done beautifully. I think you have reached the ultimate “suck it and see” stage, and there’s no going back now. Phew!
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/suck-it-and-see-to-kill-off-curiosity-and-get-out-of-relationship-groundhog-day/
Thanks, V. I briefly fell back into his “let’s be friends” routine but learned a valuable lesson…it’s just not possible to be friends with a sociopath. And let me clarify…I was the friend, he was just working on the next lay.
This boy (not man, BOY) sounds like a disgusting a-hole. You are losing NOTHING and gaining EVERYTHING by taking time to focus on you! Don’t let these a-holes keep their stinky foot in the door. Slam it shut!!! You deserve SO much more. Don’t forget that.
I’ve been a long time reader and I was having an affair with my married boss who left his wife 3 years ago. I thought he’d be immediately available for the awesome, committed, passionate relationship that we talked about wanting. Wrong. It took him a long time to actually process it all and the divorce is still not going to be final for another few months. He’s better, but not quite ready for a new partnership which I see in his actions even though he can say the right things when needed. I was so available and vulnerable and giving but these three years of inequality in the commitment department has done a number on me. I have definitely had to not be myself and tone myself and my feelings down and it’s been depressing. I am getting myself ready to make a break and tell him to come back when he’s ready for commitment. It may be never and I won’t be waiting and it will feel good to get back to myself again.
I thought we had great possibilities but when you’re both not on the same page or capable of or interested in doing the tough work a relationship takes then it’s just plain painful and a waste of good passionate commitment.
I guess timing is everything sometimes. Thanks for all the great articles that have helped me through my days of being the other woman, to the girlfriend/airbag and finally to the freedom to be me again…a birthday present I’m giving myself next week when I walk away from him.
He cheated his wife with you, what did you think he will do to you?
What HE does or does not – is not the focus – its what YOU do to yourself where it starts and ends, no matter what poor relationship you have – Eu, assclown, married man, divorced or sick man – if you suppress yourself and your needs and accept – less than – watch out, it’ll come back to bite you in the rear.
Wonderful article, Natalie! I appreciate all the truths and wisdom here.
The hard part is when you sign on with someone who acted available to “get” you, then cools off later. They renege on the relationship you thought you were both agreed on, often, only after you’ve either tied the knot or moved in together. It can be much harder leaving the relationship at that point.
I know of so many, myself included, who thought we were with open communicative men, who later morphed into someone we hardly recognized. One fellow admitted that once the knot was tied, he didn’t have to try anymore.
Any person that does this to someone else hasn’t been honest.
Completely agree…this has happened to me at least a few times. It’s hard to decipher whether they ACTED that way just to hook me in (I make it pretty clear I’m looking for an emotionally available/mature person that’s open to commitment if things go well) or if they’re impulsive/fickle and just change their minds and relationships with the flip of a switch. Either way, it’s very painful when you’ve been led to think they care about you and the relationship.
Green,
Yes, this is the whole problem as I see it. They act into you and available and then later they don’t. We need to ask better questions at the beginning. Like a friend of mine is trying to get me to go out with a man who became a widow a year ago when his wife died. He is only now wanting to meet people. What does that mean? I’m afraid to meet him because I fear he may not be ready, even though he seems to have a good history of commitment. I’m feeling clear ‘guy clear’ a little afraid to muddy up those waters again.
THIS. At first, the EUM in my life was going too fast for ME and I was screaming, ‘Slow down!’ Promises of ‘You’re the one I’ve been waiting for all my life,’ cards and flowers at work and surprise visits and ‘I love yous’ said every day all day via phone, in person….OMG it was amazing and I felt like a princess. Then it STOPPED. Abruptly. All at once. With no explanation. And when I asked, ‘What gives?’ I was met with a *blink* and a, ‘I don’t know what you mean!’ The I love yous stopped. The visits to work stopped. The constant asking ‘When can I see you’ stopped. The overnights stopped. It all just…STOPPED. I’ve been in relationships where things gradually cooled but never anything like this and I started feeling like I was going crazy! He at one point admitted that he thought he might be sabotaging the relationship on purpose. He has a history of alcohol and drug abuse and very low self-esteem and still has many demons now that he is clean. I’m not trying to make excuses for him but I think I was/am just too healthy for him, (which his BFF also mentioned) and that realllly hurts. I’ve worked hard to be a good person and a good partner and to have that be the reason someone couldn’t be with me?! ACK. I’m so angry just typing all of this I want to scream…
Dee,
Trifecta of literature:
Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback Girl
Men Who Can’t Love
Women Who Love Psychopaths
Thank you!
Sometimes I read your blogs and thing… OMG… I needed to read that! Today it is a smack in the head moment… and it is also refreshing to see I am not alone. 🙂
Thak you
This was right on time. It’s funny how so many people go through this, and it puts things into perspective for me… making me feel just a tad bit better for my unruly mistakes. Falling for someone who is unavailable seems to be my pattern (especially in recent years) and it has reached a point where I am just burnt out emotionally. The whole notion of “winning” seems to be what draws me in. The chase, and then the eventual “win”… but you’re right. There is no win. They will not magically see the light and choose me. So cheers to moving on to healthy, available relationships and ditching the dead weight 🙂
I was attracted to EUs because I was EU. Now that I’ve done the work to become EA, I have no idea what their mating rituals are, so I’ve no idea how to hunt one down and bag her…j/k
LOL. I am waiting for God to help me figure it out.
“That’s not being available; that’s being availed of.” Yes, making myself useful — my lifelong pattern…which I am working very hard to break! Well, this looks like a good opportunity to put my latest conundrum out to the BR community for comment and critique (sorry, this is going to be a bit long!):
Some who are familiar with my saga know that a few months ago, catalysed by what I’ve been learning on BR, I ended a legendarily f’d-up 17-year relationship/marriage. He moved out and went back to Japan on December 26, but at this point we are still legally married “on paper”. While I have decided that I definitely want an “official” divorce (I did make it clear that I wanted/planned to divorce him but did not push that before he moved out because among other matters I needed to sort out, I did NOT want to endanger the process of getting that abusive, drug-addled head case out of my house!), at this point I prefer to hold off on filing the papers until the date it becomes final would fall in 2016 in order to buy time to phase in the hit to my balance sheet and cash flow that the change in tax status will incur.
As of this writing I have mostly finished the “home front” aspect of the post-divorce cleanup and disaster recovery effort in that my house is now purged of squalor and superfluous clutter (my ex was a hoarder and super-high-velocity filth generator!) and rearranged in a way that makes some sort of sense for me, so now I am moving on to doing the same thing with my digital world (I have a fairly extensive web presence due to my musical and other artistic efforts).
Another daunting task ahead of me in the cleanup and disaster recovery effort is to do a major reboot occupation-wise. Due to the bad marriage I got stuck for many years in a menial, low-paid office flog and buried under loads of high-interest “survival debt”, so I am now in the process of planning and executing a significant career change. The process will be more or less the same as how I got out of the bad marriage: get clear about what I want (or DON’T want), set the intention and commit to it, then take daily actions that are consistent with it.
So what’s the conundrum? Well, no more than a week after my ex moved out and I was in the middle of the Mother of All Meltdowns, an old friend contacted me suggesting we get together and catch up when he is in my city on business the following week. To add to the context, my closest (platonic) guy-friend in the whole world also just happened to get a gig in L.A. that week and stayed at my place, providing me with a tower of emotional support, wisdom and spiritually evolved guidance in navigating through the immediate post-separation trauma. At that same time, another close, long-term friend contacted me suggesting we collaborate on a musical project later that month, which gave me a creative outlet to put my energy into in addition to more support and stabilization.
Anyway, I ended up in bed with the old friend. I could have said no, and in fact it crossed my mind, but I didn’t. Why? I have known this man since I was a teenager and we have been friends for over 30 years, so I feel safe and comfortable with him. I had absolutely no expectations for that one-night stand to turn into a relationship, so I wasn’t going to wake up hating myself the next morning. To my considerable surprise, he sent me a sweet text a couple days later expressing appreciation for that night and asking me for another date.
My two guy-friends mentioned above didn’t see anything wrong with this, and as best I can tell, there is no downside to it. I can imagine falling in love with this person as things develop and being happy in an exclusive relationship with him. That said, I am NOT mentally or emotionally (or time-wise) available for anything beyond an occasional date for the time being, and having just finally at long last secured my hard-won freedom from an oppressive 17-year relationship/marriage, I am not in any hurry to get into another exclusive thing any time soon. He seems okay with a “friends with benefits” thing for now, and is not putting any pressure on me.
The relationship has continued, and I am finding it tremendously helpful to have an opportunity to put what I have learned at BR to use in a “safe” situation, i.e., stop people-pleasing, be honest with myself and others, look after my own interests, have boundaries, look for alignment of core values, let the relationship and other person unfold, and learn how to be emotionally available with a person who appears to be so, and get an experience with what a “functional” relationship with a decent person could be like.
I feel that I am being treated with a level of respect and care that was absent in my earlier relationships, eg., I have never felt belittled or guilt-tripped or browbeaten or bullied in any way into giving up time I need to get MY stuff done to be with him (favoured tactics of exes of mine). I have found it wonderfully liberating to be able to have a simple conversation to negotiate a mutually acceptable arrangement. That’s it: we just talk…well…text about it and agree to something that we’re both ok with without all the useless drama.
There is nothing ambiguous about this. There is obviously some reason why Mr. (very busy and successful) Industry Big Shot who could dial up a lay any time day or night from any of dozens if not hundreds of aspiring pop tarts that would gladly come to him will drive for hours through hideous traffic from his nice big fancy house in one city to visit me at my ghetto apartment in a different city without complaining about it. Wait, what?! Who’s the busy VIP here?? Oh yeah, this guy likes ME! I mean, Jesus! He is also severely allergic to cats and generally is not an “animal person”, but is willing to do some heavy meds in order to tolerate my four fur-kids.
I have disclosed the existence of my online boyfriend with whom I BELIEVE (yes, I learned from the lovely people at BR that these online relationships are sheer fantasy and until we meet in person, this “virtual person” and whatever I feel for him is entirely an invention of my imagination) I have built over two years of emotional intimacy. The new guy found that highly amusing. Online Guy knows about this Real Guy too, and they both know that I am still legally married to my ex-husband. The ex doesn’t know about either of them, but I am sure he has his suspicions, as he has had about every fkng thing since Day One, whether real or imagined.
Okay, so the conundrum? Well…Online Guy, for one thing. I feel a need to at least meet him, although my expectations are far more tempered than before thanks to what I have learned about online relationships from BR, and if the whole thing evaporates in a puff of hot air as soon as I do, then so be it! At least then I can eliminate him and come one big step closer to being properly emotionally available.
Am I (1) retarding my progress in healing from the f’d-up marriage and piecing myself back together by not totally abstaining from any physical/emotional involvement with another human for the recommended two-year waiting period following a divorce; and (2) am I somehow being unfair to my new guy by not having flatly refused his advances?
I am just listening closely and observing how I am feeling, and making a point to take care of my own needs and express myself authentically while being fair and respectful and considerate to others.
For context, my ex-husband was back in Japan working a seasonal job for five months last spring/summer and was back here for just a couple months before he moved back to Japan permanently on December 26th, so I’ve had a trial run at being single again, but I was so busy while he was gone that I hardly had any social interactions of any kind with other humans during that time.
I welcome advice and tough love. Thanks!!
Hi Brenda, you sound like you are doing pretty well to me. But just a thought, a man who likes a woman will step up and be with her (exactly as you described New Man doing). Online guy, although intimate, may become an excuse for you remaining unavailable. If the situationa was reversed with New Man having an online woman friend, would you feel that he was available or a bit… unavailable?
I completely agree with NicW, that your ‘curiosity’ about a person you even call ‘online boyfriend’ (phantasy relationship) might mean that you don’t really want to be fully open to your new relationship. It appears a distraction, perhaps not to think about how to be in a real relationship with EA man? Most of us are inexperienced in EA real relationships but phantasy relationship we know so well and they feel so ‘home’ to us! As to your question whether it was too early to jump into another relationship – it depends when you’ve fully realised when your old relationship was over. If this happened a while ago, you’ve mourned the loss (as cr###y as it was) but you weren’t able to start/ finalise your divorce for whatever reason then it might be fine. If it’s recent then maybe you’re on rebound. In any case, keep your eyes wide open and observe yourself very carefully.
Thank you NicW and Mephista! I feel pretty good most of the time, and complete about the marriage — that I did everything I could have to hold it together (to the point of letting myself get strip-mined down to nothing and had to cut and run to save myself!), and had the grand meltdown of grieving it when he moved out (permanently) this past winter after the “trial run” when he was away the previous spring/summer (I began freaking out then). I also recognized how I had sabotaged the process of initiating the divorce when he was back for a couple months last fall by booking a series of performances so I could keep saying to myself, “I can’t bring up *that* issue until we get through that show. Oops, and this one too…” until he actually brought it up one day on his own and then bought his plane ticket a couple weeks later.
I had another brief freakout a couple weeks ago when he FaceTimed me and we discussed filing the divorce and liquidating a lot of assets, so I am aware that I still have cold feet about pulling the plug on the life support system keeping it alive. I know I have to face that fire and walk through it, and he’ll be back briefly in June to deal with some stuff, so I am determined to make filing the papers one of the things that gets done at that time and be through with it. In fact, this just prompted me to start a checklist and timeline of things I need to have ready in order to accomplish that.
Re the Online Guy vs. Real Guy, I have observed myself feeling more drawn to Online Guy, and then go, “Well, of course! I have 2.5 years of (pseudo) intimacy with Online Guy while this other is a brand-new relationship where we are still in the early stages of getting to know each other on an intimate level, so naturally I’ll feel more at home in the much longer-established fantasy relationship”….
Brenda K
Online guy is the perfect boyfriend, he doesn’t have to do anything but turn up on skype or msn messenger, text or email and the odd phone call and chat to you for a while and you love it. You don’t actually have to go out with him, have real sex with him, get to know him and his friends and family. For 2.5 years you have been cruising along in this weird fantasy as a stop gap while your marriage has been falling apart. Pure escapism.
But this is where the rubber hits the road. Fantasy online guy will always be a fantasy, he isn’t real. I dare say he’s very nice to you and why not, if he was horrible you would dump him, right?
You and your husband are all but divorced and then there is this other ‘real’ guy. Is he a stop gap while you figure out yourself or do you really like him? Do you know if he really likes you? Just tread carefully over other peoples feelings.
Hi Brenda,
My instincts and my heart told me to reach out to you after reading this.
It reminds me of myself.
I had a long term relationship with a guy that led me to BR – everything Nat mentions in this article was how I felt. I started the relationship avaliable and slowly adjusted to fit the guy I was with.
By the time we had broken up for the last time, I was broken and unavaliable – but I didnt realise this. So I jumped into 2 relationships almsot straight away. These two relationships felt better. I was able to learn “on the job” so to speak and put my boundaries in place, be vunlnerable agian and yes they helped heal me.
However as I genuinely regained my emotional avaliability I saw exactly what I was doing.
People who get involved with other people who are straight out or relationships/in the middle of divorces/seperated etc. are rarely emotionally avaliable themselves.
Why would these guys want to be involved in a situation with a woman who is not yet divorced who has an online situation with a man and a physical situation with an old friend. – objectively it is messy – and they are happy with it. This is a red flag in my opnion. What are they hiding from?
As you get more emotionally involved – which tends to happen, you may then see exactly where these men really are emotionally.
Please tread carefully with your heart. RIght now even though you may not feel it. You are fragile.
Best wishes
Bx
Brenda, dont meet online guy. Online guy knows about Real guy (note that term! Real guy meaning the other guy is not real, which is in fact the case). He still hasn’t tried to meet, meaning that you being in a Real offline relationship is not relevant to him. So dont push him into seeing you – firstly, we all only have so much mind space. With your job, your ex, your divorce you’re maxed out already. Then you have the Real Guy, your friends, and this online fantasy.
The way you write your post; you are saying you are EU, and dont want to commit.
You want to meet online guy to ‘eliminate him and come one big step closer to being properly emotionally available’ – so you think he’s holding you back from real guy? More likely that YOU are holding you back from real guy by hanging on to online guy. Online guy is the symptom not the cause. Its not good for your mental health that you are suspending yourself between two guys – this one or that one, this one or that one. A great way to be EU.
At the same time, why are you torturing yourself so much with these thoughts? Has anxiety become a habit to you from your problematic marriage? Enjoy real guy. You have so much stuff going on – just enjoy that there is a decent guy that comes by sometimes and you can have some fun.
And thats another reason not to meet Online guy – you aren’t sure about him, you dont know how much fun he will be in bed or even just in your living room.
Oops, posted the above reply in the wrong place!
Hi Suki, and thank you so much! I think you hit it on the head as to what has been making me uncomfortable enough about this to reach out for some guidance: the feeling that I am suspending myself between these two people (BRILLIANT visual, BTW!) when I am not in fact actually available to either of them right now. I know full well that I need both hands on the wheel to navigate through what’s in front of me for the time being, and that my mental/emotional bandwidth is finite. Thankfully this quandary hasn’t reached the “torment” stage yet, which is why I reached out before it did.
In fact, except for this (self-inflicted and unnecessary) juggling act and the stultifying job, since recovering from the big meltdown I have been feeling so happy and full and content — a totally new sensation to me(!) — that I feel no need to get into an intimate relationship for the time being. I just want to continue being free to enjoy my life and get to know myself and do what I want without having to arrange everything I do around someone else.
And yes, high anxiety and being chronically over-committed is a well-worn way of life for me, and another destructive pattern I am intent on breaking. In fact, I recently have written it into my to-do list to hold off on agreeing to anything until I think it through and determine whether it is consistent with my current goals, and if so, will it push me into overcommitment territory or make me uncomfortable/stress me out.
Thank you very much, Boo! Indeed, that was my first thought: “Why. On. Earth. would any right-minded person want to get involved with me in the situation I am currently in?!” Perhaps that’s it: I am obviously “safely” unavailable if that’s their comfort zone???
I admit that I had/have my suspicions about “Real Guy’s” *actual* availability, since based on conversations with him over the years he appears to have a long history of relationships with EU women (his wife of many years, a long off-and-on involvement with a married woman and likely others). At least I am getting into this armed with an understanding of what to look for/expect; as this may well be my long-neglected intuition red-flagging the likely impending “gotcha!” when I do get more emotionally attached.
Conversely, in Online Guy’s case and to his credit, while he has from time to time exhibited some classic signs of EU-ness, he has been pretty insistent throughout our “relationship” that I first free myself from the marriage before we attempt to take our online thing into real life, and I agree completely.
I am approaching the thing with the Real Guy pretty much as you put it: not gunning for a committed relationship, but enjoying and (mutually) benefiting from an opportunity to “learn on the job” in a safe situation, and at the same time UN-learn/dismantle the dysfunctional coping tactics and armour I taken on to survive the toxic marriage. Incidentally, this is additionally giving me an experience with being close to a highly successful person so I am getting to see what that M.O. looks like. I also have a feeling that as I explore and develop my own emotional IQ, unavailable behaviour will become more apparent to me, and I am drawing my lines as to what I am willing to walk away from.
Brenda
No 1 – Sort out what is going on with you and your husband first – do not go or be with anyone else romantically virtually or real life physically – until you have completely sorted it out and stop using finances as a excuse… again!
No 2 – Answer your own questions – if you know the answers and follow them with your actions, assert clear boundaries based on your needs not anyone elses sex drive and continue to do well not having a male harem around you – you are EA so all is well.
The above is what I would do but what you need to do is up to you.
Thank you Oona! You are absolutely right. Having this conversation has clarified issues to me, including why superimposed involvements are NOT a very good idea! This has also cued me to start a to-do list and timeline specific to having the divorce papers all set to file in June when my ex comes back briefly to sort various things out. Good point about my male harem 🙂 That’s another deeply-entrenched pattern of mine, so I am making an effort to spend quality face time with my female friends now that I am free to do so.
Ok Oona, you called it! Your comment triggered my memory that this “Real Guy” I just got involved with has been a VERY long-term member of my male harem, and buffer in an earlier f’d-up relationship. We buffered each other during that era two decades ago. This is a bit murkier than I’d thought!
Brenda – YOU called it by posting to a place you knew someone may understand it – as you in reality really see it – your instincts are great – keep them up – you are doing really well, that mud will take no time to clear at this rate.
Thank you, thank you and thank you again! I knew I could count on you ladies to tell it to me straight and shine your flashlights under my bed and behind the curtains! A lot of food for thought here….
I’m not sure if this is relevant, but I feel that I should clarify for context that I did NOT meet Online Guy via online dating. He and I discovered each other through mutual admiration of each other as writers, and then it spontaneously combusted into an online affair when we got directly in touch while I was still married. He knew I was not happy at home.
Why doesn’t/hasn’t he come to visit me in all this time? Real life friends asked me that when my husband still lived with me and I’d be like, “Whatever for? What’s he going to do? Sit around in a really expensive downtown L.A. hotel for days on end waiting for me to finagle a few minutes in which I can sneak off to go see him?” I’ve been in hardcore disaster recovery mode ever since the ex moved out (three months ago), so in no position to entertain visitors flying in from the other side of the world especially to see me. Hell, I wouldn’t even let the new “Real Guy” in the house until just a few weeks ago by which point it was starting to look as if a normal person lives there. That said, I do take the point that if he is genuinely interested in meeting me, then he will find a way to get himself over here.
Based on conversations we have had and what I have observed of his (online) interactions with other people, I have a pretty good sense that I would enjoy being friends in real life even if a relationship doesn’t work out, but that is pure speculation until I actually meet him. He may indeed turn out to be another Mr. Unavailable with more baggage than Terminal B at LAX, and in any case, I am the one who is driving the very slow and tentative pace of the recently-commenced conversation about expectations going forward now that I am liberated from the marriage due to my OWN unavailability.
Yep best keep the harem up – just in case….
Brenda You are not in a relationship with yourself fully let alone ANYONE else – analysing others is a waste of your/our time and is YOU actively avoiding the real issues here – focusing on you and analysing exactly who YOU are. Thank goodness he hasn’t been stupid enough to visit you so you can seduce him with your woo is me ways
1) Sort divorce out.
2) Answer your own questions.
3) Replace male harem with female harem both virtually and in the real – who genuinely care and bring the best out in you (harder than it seems after a life time of relying on male harem and fantasy relationships) Good luck…let us know how it goes…
Been a BR reader for about 4 years now. It has been a true God send, hand holding me through the ups and downs of a long term, unavailable relationship. This post sums up almost my entire relationship with this person. I think It’s all about timing. Learning. Growing. And unfortunately, getting hit with the inevitable pain and disappointment after that ‘high’ of being with them… And thinking things will be good and stay good, maybe, ‘this’ time. Only to be let down, AGAIN. I used to feel scared. Like, ‘God, what is it going to take for me to let go? What terrible pain and disrespect is this man going to do to me (what torment am I willingly accepting?) Being ‘committed’, losing my mind? My job? My family/friends? Through enough pain… I have finally let go. There will be no ‘this time’, next time. It is painful to let go and accept, and experience a myriad of emotions, and it’s so very ‘normal’ to feel all of that, which we’re all avoiding, big time. We fear those emotions of letting go so much, that we’ll take the neglect and disrespect, with a side of some happiness, on occasion. Sometimes, we’re just not ready to let go, for whatever reason. Whatever lesson we need to learn, we haven’t ‘gotten’ it yet. But when we do, we’ll be better because of it. Emotionally, I’m a hell of a lot calmer. I don’t care so much what others think of me anymore. And as for my ex, whom I had enough… And walked away from finally, I see him as pretty damn less than average now (he always was, actually, funny how your picture of someone changes when ‘you’ change) They thrive on how much of a big deal we make of them. They play on our weaknesses. That’s how they keep us where we’re at. They couldn’t keep us any other way. Because after all, they are ‘just not that special’, for reals. We make them special, and accept some serious, twisted crap from them. Then complain why we’re not being respected. They don’t need to be generous or respectful when we’re taking whatever scraps they’re throwing to us. And I think we’re also afraid that if we actually do change and grow a set, and become capable, they’ll walk, they won’t come back, AGAIN. And we’ll feel rejected and unworthy. When actually, we never needed them to begin with to validate anything. We only need to give it to ourselves, and learn and practice how to become more self reliant and confident in how strong and capable we really are. We’ve been dimming our own light. And in the end, knowing what you gave up for this piece of garbage, will disappoint you more than anything. I regret not focusing and being more present to my kids and the people who really do care about me. Kills me every day. Please, think about the people around you… Who are just waiting for you to give that energy to them. Believe me, life is so much better, amazing actually, without a monkey on your back. Do your best to learn and grow, so that you are closer and closer to finally letting go of something that doesn’t belong in your life.
Thank you Demke for saying what I also feel so well. Especially about others we unwittingly neglect, becuase we are given our energy to people who dont appreciate it.
Its a process, but yes through learning and growing, sites like these and being aware and ready to experience short term pain for long term gain we can emerge like butterflies.
Hey Boo, wanted to chime in here and add that this is another of my long-term patterns: “throwing my pearls to swine”, so to speak, and being totally M.I.A. to ME and to those who genuinely care about me and fully deserve reciprocal care and respect FROM me. Another bad habit I am determined to break!
Demke, this was so well put.
I’d like to say that, in my experience, when we grow a pair and stand for ourselves, these EUM do indeed walk away. So in this sense our fears about what happens if we stop dimming our light and expect nothing are true. They do come true. But what’s the most important thing about this is that we WIN. When they take off if we learn to stand up and try to live and be authentic, it is our blessing. These guys were never there to begin with. I think it’s important to realize that our fear will indeed come true but what we’ll gain is LOVE. Because the crumbs we have had with EUMs are not love. So we need to get real: what did we lose? The booty calls? The “I don’t know. Life’s complicated. I am so confused. Let’s not talk about it and have sex instead”? The empty words? A person who was barely there when it suited them and who are so damn scared of US and our FEELINGS and how inconvenient we are to their flip flopping lifestyle? Bleh.
At some point (after the hot pursuit ended?) I realized that my getting out was only a question of me getting courage. I saw no progress. I argued with him until 4 am for months and months. But I saw no change and been stonewalled for daring to bring anything out. It’s this classic commitmentphobic bs that’s described in “He’s Scared She’s Scared”. Except that I did not understand he was a c.phobe since he had a gf who, while he was dragging me along, has become a long-term gf. Anyway, I don’t really want to talk about him as he no longer matters.
I could sign my name under everything you wrote, Demke. And the “let me see how much lower I can fall/how little I can survive one” type of self-hatred and masochism and the amazing, almost out of nowhere, realization that there was nothing special about that man. I am astonished now, 1.5 years later that I moved from thinking and feeling it in my bones that he was a God (and yes, I dated before and after him), to seeing him as pathetic, sad and scared of any authenticity. Just recently the EUM sent me an email, on my birthday, telling me about his health problems and about how he’s happy that his therapist is understanding and how he has a depression and went on and on justifying his past and present (we work together) behavior by depression and what not. On my birthday. I did not even get annoyed. In the past I’d have jumped right up, emailed him back, asking for more details, admiring his courage to go into therapy and so on ad nauseam. But now I thought “Poor you” and deleted that email.
I am working on my own fear of living authentically with my new therapist. The very first thing that helped me too was to go totally bare and opening myself to a friend about my having a relationshit with a gf’ed man. I was so ashamed for years and I had no one to talk to because of this. I opened up to her. We went to Europe for a short vacation. I kept waking up at night from some very realistic nightmares about exEUM. We talked and laughed and cried with my friend. Reaching out to her was my first experience in being vulnerable, being there and understanding I can get rejected any time. It was so worth it. Every effort we make with living authentically with what we feel, with asking ourselves “what is it that I am feeling now? when I stop performing”, is worth in gold.
Why,
Is your experience with a therapist helpful? How did you find one (online, reference, insurance referral?). I am interested but don’t want to be pushed to take any medication and of course it’s quite expensive. I feel like I am procrastinating not being fully available to myself. I think I need a therapist but find excuses to postpone. Please let me know about your experience, as far as whether it’s helping, how long you have been doing it, and whatever else you feel comfortable sharing here. Thanks!
Sofia,
please check my comment on the previous post by Natalie
ReadyForChange, I saw your post and replied. Thanks!
Sofia,
I know your question wasn’t directed at me, but I got referrals from friends. I met with two therapists and ended up with the one I thought would make me do the harder work instead of being my cheerleader. The therapist could not prescribe meds nor could she make me take them. I’d received citalopram from a friend out of desperation. I tried it briefly, felt physically shaky and stopped. My FNP briefly prescribed that and reprimanded me (I was at the point of trying anything) and a low dose of Xanax. I had never been on meds, had never had any addiction. Xanax for a few weeks took a SLIGHT edge of my nonstop anxiety. I am not an anxious person. I took Xanax for a few weeks. Once in a great while I take one. (1-2/ month) but idk if it helps anymore than having a drink or two. Anyhow, I look forward to therapy because I am not judged.
And Why,
“The “I don’t know. Life’s complicated. I am so confused. Let’s not talk about it and have sex instead”? The empty words? A person who was barely there when it suited them and who are so damn scared of US and our FEELINGS and how inconvenient we are to their flip flopping lifestyle?”
You nailed it here.
And..
“Every effort we make with living authentically with what we feel, with asking ourselves “what is it that I am feeling now? when I stop performing”, is worth in gold.”
Thank you!
Demke,
” We fear those emotions of letting go so much, that we’ll take the neglect and disrespect, with a side of some happiness, on occasion. Sometimes, we’re just not ready to let go, for whatever reason. Whatever lesson we need to learn, we haven’t ‘gotten’ it yet. But when we do, we’ll be better because of it.”
Right. Happiness should be a full course meal. Daily.
Sofia,
I was in therapy for a couple of years before this one. I don’t know whether it was because of the city I lived in at that point, but my initial attempt at trying to find a therapist was weird/creepy. I want to a board certified psychotherapist who started hitting on me right into our first 15 minutes. This scared me off the whole thing for about 6 months. So I went into “counselling”. I found a person who was finishing her degree and was willing to do this for free. We had a few sessions but I wasn’t comfortable with her either. She wasn’t creepy or anything. Just did not click. Then there was someone else. They all belonged to different schools btw. So I got to try different approaches too. I finally found a therapist I stayed with. Then I felt confident enough to take a pause. And then I went NC with an exEUM, then the truth of his actions finally hit me, he started luring me back in, I hit rock bottom as Demke described above (aka let me see how much sh!t I can take from this person and from myself). And at that point it was very tough for me financially too. But I just could not deal with it anymore. I know it’s VERY different for different people. But I read and read and read. And then I reached a point where I could no longer untie those knots. I am smart with a good degree and patience. But I am not a clinical psychologist, a don’t have a degree in this field. And I needed an experienced hand to guide me not just towards the light within but also towards the dark spots. So I just googled.
I decided not to come back to my old therapist but start anew. I googled. I saw the prices. It is still a luxury for me, I am not gonna lie. I had to cut some of my expenses in order to be able to afford it. But the relief you feel after those sessions – it’s so worth it. It’s one of the best things I get to do for myself.
I know someone has mentioned before that there are therapy groups organized on/by campuses around medschools. They are essentially gradstudents working with you for free or for a very minimal fee. If you have a big hospital in your city, they might be able to refer you to one of those places or have an alternative. Sometimes a local AA organization might have some tips too. There are options.
I am not really a magical thinking kind of person but I found that once I let go of shaming myself for needing help with my pain and decided I am gonna try find this help, all these contacts and opportunities started appearing.
I hope you find what you’re looking for! Please feel free to ask if you have any more questions.
Sofia, I wanted to add about getting medicated. I am currently not on medication. And it really depends on the therapist. Almost everyone I dealt with before suggested I try something. However, at that point I had very different problems, not connected to EU or men. So it made sense back then.
But regardless, no one can force you to take meds. A therapist can only offer you to try to go on medication. But you can continue therapy without them. Please remember that it is YOUR choice. And that a doctor offering you to consider medication is not necessarily a sign that there’s something wrong with you.
Hi Sofia, I was referred to a counsellor via my NHS doctor. Counsellors and psychologists are not licensed to prescribe medications (in UK), so that was not an issue. Expensive, yes, but no more than subscribing to some fitness class.
That experience was the best thing that happened to me, because the person I shared my problems with was a great person. I have had other therapists after that (and a few before) and it’s devastating if you find someone that is not a good person. After taking care of the operational details (and taking your time to see if you really want it/are ready), you really need to go with your gut in order to decide if he/she is trustworthy. Worst place to apply people-pleasing skills there 🙂 Best, V.
Say Something, Why, and V.,
Thanks for sharing your experiences. It looks like it’s a trial by error. Even if someone says that the therapist is good for her/him, the therapist might not be a good match for you. And I agree, it could be traumatizing if the relationship is not working out or even worse, makes the recovery more complicated! I will google some in my area. I would rather stay away from grad students. I am sure they are brilliant intelligent people, but they don’t have any experience. However, you never know. Lots of options to ponder. On the search!
Sofia,
My friend who provided the referral told me her guideline: “I had to find someone smarter, who knew more than I do.” She’d met with several, and that’s how I knew I was meeting with a skilled, intelligent psychotherapist. One thing this therapist was able to bring to light was that I questioned trusting not just others, but myself. It took some time. Although my story never changed, I revealed more about my thoughts and feelings. She does not like to label, when I talk about him, she brings it back to me. She asked me a question one day: which scenario of my three would be the worst?
1. He’s the BGE, and just doesn’t like me anymore.
2. He liked me, but is EU and passive-aggressive, maybe has some narcism and over estimated his capacity for a relationship.
3. He’s a sociopath/psychopath and purposely manipulated me just to destroy me.
I had to take a week and think. Which was the worst? I picked #1. Of course she asked why, and I said “because that would mean that he’s normal and I’m the crazy one.”
I truly believe he was manipulative. Was it on purpose to destroy me? Maybe not. Was it to “get what he wanted”? Most likely. That would be what Natalie calls (I think) the hallmarks of a relationship without the commitment.
Say Something,
Those three options made me sad when I read them. The bottom line is that we don’t like what these creeps did.
Sofia and Say Something,
When you are in this type of pain what do you do with your long weekends?
Mary Jane/ Sofia,
I am still sad that I felt compelled to draw those three conclusions. Not getting closure was killing me. Not knowing who he is/was TORTURED ME IN A WAY THAT CONSUMED MY EVERY THOUGHT. Yes I know I need to move on. There is no such thing as a one-sided relationship. I’ve been a believer for as long as I can remember that I’d NEVER want to be with someone who didn’t fully want to be with me. So what is my problem? Yes I know I need to focus on me not him. Yes I know he will never give me anything.
I THINK (?) the aftermath simply left me unable to recognize whether anything I thought, felt, believed about him/ us was true, fake, made up, real, misinterpreted… I couldn’t understand, process, relax, focus. cog dis.
I NEEDED to make SOME KIND OF SENSE out of nonsense. I had to draw my own conclusions.
Ruminating from my perspective also based on how and what he presented
I didn’t do anything wrong
We never argued
Our values aligned
We took interest in each other’s activities
I was good to him
He treated me well
Attraction and affection seemed stronger than ever
We’re sleeping together and nothing seems different
We had future plans (even TLW)
I thought he REALLY liked me
Three weeks earlier HE was initiating vacation plans for us
We had contact multiple times a day
Fri pm- Mon am were our weekends together
Anyhow… It’s gone. I listened to him and believed him as he described all the wonderful things we’d be doing in the summer. We’d drive by places that he’d take me when the weather broke. Then he disappeared and left me alone in a world of make-believe.
Fairy-tale -> Nightmare in the blink of an eye.
So now what do I do now on weekends? I still cry, I admit it. I go to grocery stores for one or two items. I’ve exercised excessively. Walking. Dog walking. Tennis. Squash. Soccer. Biking. I’ve tried to spend time with friends. There have been days I’ve spent the majority of my time reading and researching “this stuff” online. Nonstop. Writing. Talking on the phone. Ruminating. I’ve read and responded to online dating profiles. I haven’t dated since January. I haven’t met anyone half decent. I have a huge list in a previous post. I don’t sleep well. I don’t actually enjoy weekends anymore. I don’t genuinely enjoy much and I want that back, as you do. Right now I think… Hmm 6:00. I’d be pulling in his driveway. But I’m not.
How about you? Mary Jane, how did you “find out” if you don’t mind sharing. I’m sorry if that’s too much to share.
Say Something,
Your story sounds almost like mine. I wish I could erase this for you. I want you to be happy because I feel the pain in your posts. When I read what you have endured it sounds like the painful route I am on. These men deceived us and it has cost us dearly. I was planning a wedding. I am crushed. I have to start all OVER and try to trust someone. Even posting here is tough. Trusting is hard now.
It was a Saturday morning and he left my house headed out to go to some basketball games and wouldn’t be with me this one Saturday out of many. I was fine with that. Later that night when he called me to say good night he was whispering. Instantly I knew in my gut something was WRONG. He said he didn’t feel well and was going to bed. I didn’t believe HIM.
I called him back and ask him where he was. He said he was in bed. I had such a strong urge that something wasn’t right. So, I drove over to his house. He was not at home. I called again and he said he was in bed. I said you are not at home. He said he would talk to me on Sunday and hung up.
Next day he text me a hotel receipt saying he was with his fraternity brothers. LIAR. I ended it and ask why he did it and why he was lying and he did not EVER give me a reason. I called the hotel and the person who answered the phone gave me four to five dates during the week that he was at the hotel. I was in SHOCK.
So, now I sit here reading and ruminating. Stuck in a cycle of pain that I wouldn’t want anyone to deal with. When I read your post it is the first time that I realized I am not alone. Your story of how he disappeared let me see that this happens. I am hurt just like you. We had plans for a future. I had tickets for some plays and a major trip for us. I never used any of the tickets. Major money down the tube.
I want God to heal this pain. I am alive but what kind of life do I have? The deception is almost too much to handle. On impulse I went online to a dating site and he had a profile up. He had been online while engaged to me looking for a date. I knew because he had on outfits that he had worn to my house. One I bought him. Before coming to my house on Saturdays he would be at home taking selfies and posting them. While I got no explanation from him I felt this was Gods way of showing me what had been going on behind my back. But why? He could have told me he was unhappy.
Like you said there were no arguments. We went to plays, movies, ballet, on trips. I was SO HAPPY. When did things go so wrong for him? If he had just said I don’t want you- I would have been hurt but I would have known. He never told me what was WRONG.
He kept coming here having great dinners and a great time. All the while he was smiling in my face and going to a hotel to sleep with another woman. WHY?
I have been handling this alone. I read and I workout. Some days I have walked 20 miles. I will do 10 miles and then later do another 10. It has calmed my mind down. I thank God that I am in good health. That is the only good I see right now in my life.
I read all the stories on here and I see the pain and confusion that men who lie are creating and it just hurts. Just be honest with people.
When I found out he just transitioned over to weekends with whoever he was meeting at hotels. This is SO PAINFUL. He is happy and I am trying to sort all of this out. It is like he just happily skipped down the street with her and looked back and laughed at me. I am just hurt! I really get your pain. I wish I could make this right for YOU. I want my life back. I am just NUMB.
MJ,
Your story is for sure a sad one. But none of these guys are sitting around feeling bad. They’re disconnected from us and dialed into new people. Keeping the circuit flowing. I’ll bet you could not sleep that Saturday night. It’s really as if he had to do some horrible thing, KNOWING you’d find out, because it created an exiting event. “oh shit I can’t commit.” ouch. Yep.
I only walked about 2 miles today, but there have been days where I’ve walked and cried at the same time. Sometimes I think if I can just get worn out enough, I’ll be too tired to think about him. But I’ve been having dreams and cannot control that.
I asked specifically- is there someone else? NO. Later in writing, I asked- Am I someone you could never love? Like you said, if it was that they don’t have feelings, it’s different from the BS shoveled our way. Just SAY IT. Although honestly, how could someone who loves you, or even claims to care do these kind of thing? It’s not love or caring. It’s selfishness, cruelty, and apathy.
Say Something,
I couldn’t reply under your last comment. Like you my sleep has been interrupted. That night I NEVER went to sleep. I was so upset. I have nights were this has me up. I watch television and do too much thinking.
I am having dreams too. Some of them are really bad. They are basically about him pulling dirty stunts against me.
I am going to be so careful moving forward. I had a guy ask me out who works out at my gym. We went out for dinner. I didn’t hear from him for 3 days. When he resurfaced and said he lost his job-my attitude was SO WHAT. I never responded to his text. I can spot LIARS better now. I am being careful this time. You cant disappear on me and pop up again. I AM DONE.
We are going to get past our hurts. You need someone special in your life who you can trust. That would help make him a thing of the PAST.
I had a really emotional morning, but I read and as the day moved on things got better. Things will get better for us.
Good Morning MJ,
Because I don’t have background on your “unemployed dinner date” I wonder: did he mention during dinner that his job was in jeopardy? If there were pending layoffs, seems as if this topic would have surfaced at dinner. Instead, he:
Had dinner with you
Got up, went to work, lost his job
Spent a few days not communicating
Decided to text you and announce a job loss that wasn’t his fault and he knew nothing about
Yes, I would really like to find one good guy. It does almost feel like that’s my “evidence” to prove that BGE is not BGE even though I know it. Why do I want proof?
Weirdly, maybe, I feel like there is some imprint of BGE in my mind. Like I’ve permanently imprinted BGE within me, like a mental tattoo that cannot be removed. How can I explain…it’s like faulty brain wiring that recalls not only his image, but associates him with happiness, but then also slaps on the pain each and every time. Intrusive thoughts like happiness = pain with everything connected to him. Memories, reminders, triggers. And this “imprint” feels so deeply imbedded that I worry it will never fade away.
I have allowed one man’s words, actions, and decision to negatively impact my life. Although he does not physically exist in my life, I am haunted by what is now only in my own mind. I’m addicted to these memories, which serve only to torment me. Stepping out of this horror show in my mind and accepting that yes, it really happened, and I can still be happy without him, is a skill I cannot figure out. Maybe I still don’t believe it. I’m also not sure why “this” is the hardest thing ever.
Good Morning Say Something,
I understand what you mean about the mental imprint. I am reading and trying to figure out how to let this guy who hurt me GO. It is hard like you say.
We need to stop idealizing them because they are both gone. And they are liars. Just curious since he said there was no one else why did he need to let you go? Men just flat out lie. Do you really believe he was already seeing someone else?
I have so much history with my x. I still need to just let this go. It is just shocking to me that he would give up what we had. But you know what I caught him so he figured what the hell. I have to send you a link I read about letting go.
You can be happy again without him. This is a BIG WORLD and these 2 are not the end all. I am going to Italy this Summer without him. The things I dreamed of doing with him will have to be done alone. I am going to set some goals for myself and just keep walking forward. One day he will be dust in the wind.
As you say one person is having major impact. I am 100% sure he is out sleeping with someone new and enjoying every day of of lying lifestyle.
He would always say I love me some me (meaning himself). Well I better get busy loving ME. You gotta do the same.
Sofia,
Feeling numb means not feeling pain, thus not being able to feel happiness either, right? That’s why I commented about suppressing pain. It’s lessened for you since last year from what you say, but sounds like you aren’t quite through. And you’re realizing that you need a new approach. You are smart and working toward feeling wonderful again!
MJ,
“It is just shocking to me that he would give up what we had.”
Yep, I thought exactly what you wrote. But they bailed. Was BGE with someone before we ended? No evidence. My stuff was still all over his house. From fri pm to Tues am nobody was calling or texting him. Nobody showed up. We’d been enjoying the weekend together until late Sunday afternoon, when my life forever changed. What I DO know is that one month later, in the last text, he told me he couldn’t commit and was dating again, low-key. (was I supposed the breathe easier because he said “low-key”?) He didn’t call me because it was “too heavy”.
I have NO IDEA why he disappeared. But he did it because he WANTED TO. Looking back, I feel like I made it to #9/10 and that #10 was some special attribute that I just didn’t possess in his mind, so the nine good things didn’t even matter. I don’t know if I scared him off by being real. Too bad. I just don’t know. I truly thought he felt the same. He gave up on someone who cared for, loved,
valued, trusted, and respected him. I NEVER sensed that he was not happy, and I’ve always been fairly intuitive. He just shut down and disappeared.
Mary Jane,
I never spent an entire weekend with the ex. In fact we didn’t even see each other every weekend. But in the first months I dreaded every weekend. It was hard for me on Friday/Saturday nights at first. Some Sunday afternoons. It took several months before I got used to the weekend nights to be on my own or going out either alone or with a girlfriend. Then I got used to it and filled up my time with reading, BR:), hobbies, watching movies, walking, just whatever I felt like doing. I never felt alone or bored because I had always been self-sufficient and also had never spent that much time with him to feel the difference. Yet of course I missed all the daily phone calls and the regular outings we had on the weekend nights.
Do you have kids? I am with my daughter every other weekend (and she lives with me), so my weekends fly fast, too fast, with her or without her. I always occupy myself with something. But yes, the first months seemed very long. Hang in there. Try doing something you like or used to like before you got involved with the ex.
Sofia,
Thanks for offering your advice. Last night I sat and read old BR Posts. I rad one of your old comments about closing the door on the relationship. That imagery was helpful for me. I admire the way you freely share you thoughts and the way you are working thru this. It is a process. We will get over this.
I hate the time it is consuming. I will be more careful about who I allow in my life because it can take a toll on you. I am headed to the gym and then I made a little list of things I can do.
I will not do anything work related just to pass time. I wish someone could remove the little portion of my thoughts that keep ruminating about him. You said it best in your post. The relationship is over. It ran its course.
I cant get the image of him proposing to me out of my head. He alone made the decision to give me a ring. I will never understand why he ended up in bed with someone else. And I cant let me life pass away thinking about why this fool did this. It is like you said the priest told you we don’t know how long we will be here on this earth.
I cant occupy my time thinking about a man who is in bed with another woman and left me with no explanation. I have walked 10 miles some days just to calm my mind. The disrespect is what hurts me so much.
MJ,
Page 251 in the book Men Who Can’t Love:
“A worst-case commitmentphobic usually uses another woman as the final straw in a relationship. Typically, he doesn’t want to be in a committed relationship with this woman any more than he does with you. But her prescience reassures him that he has a way out of his involvement with you.
Sometimes this happens just as the relationship seems about to move to another stage. Perhaps you were planning to live together. Perhaps you were even talking about marriage.”
Say Something,
I wish the first consultation were free! By the time one meets with several counselors to find the right one, one is out of 1K at least!
Interesting options. The first one is the painful one. That one can lead to the healing faster than the other two. I think. Because the others two kind of justify his actions, but you end up being stuck in “poor me,” and cycle longer, maybe. I went through every course of thinking possible. After twisting my brain trying to figure out who he was, “scared to commit,” “EU,” “AC,” “crazy,” even maybe a gay (!) or bisexual, I finally just realized whoever he is, it doesn’t matter because he just DOESN’T LIKE AND DOESN’T WANT ME ANYMORE. The relationship ran out its course for him and for me too (only I could not see it back then). It is over. It doesn’t matter who he was because it won’t help to label him. So, yes, the first one, I would pick as the most likely possibility and the truth that hurts. “That’s life, sorry,” like he would say to me in the beginning of the relationship telling stories about one of his former relationship (“she deserved it, bitch,” his words) or other people’s relationships, and that’s what he did to me eventually. “It’s life, the feelings are not the same, and I don’t see you with me anymore. But you are great and awesome. Sorry. Bye.” Something like that. We could spend decades analyzing WHY. It is over and won’t return. And we have to digest the pain until it goes away and it will.
Hi Sofia,
Re. Counseling, I guess I’m fortunate to have good insurance with a $25 co-pay, and I don’t have limitations per year. With a different ins. plan, I’d be rethinking my strategy. When i was looking, one consultation was free, the other charged the regular fee.
Even tho #1 is the most painful of my scenarios, it can’t be 100%. There is definitely the EU factor with him. But here’s what I don’t understand. If a guy is EU… and the relationship gets to that “oh shit can’t commit” point for him, is he able to just focus on some random or insignificant thing about the woman that isn’t perfect or ideal in order to justify his abrupt change of heart? I know I’ve read a zillion times “it’s not about you, it’s him” YET they do pick something out, which to me is why I guess I said to him “you don’t like me ENOUGH” although he wouldn’t even admit that.
I have to believe that GOOD people do not just disappear. Good people don’t play the leading role in a relationship and never see you again. Good people don’t encourage you to attach/bond in a relationship and then claim to be just a stand-in. Good people would not be compared to a actors to begin with.
I should modify my comment to instead more accurately read: I was unknowingly auditioning for a role that would never be mine. In fact, I didn’t know I was even with the lead actor, director, and producer of his own show. I never got to see the script.
I’m in the process of find a good therapist too. I tried a Grad Student who was ready to graduate. It was awful. He was treating me for things I didn’t have. It set me back. Now I’m very wary, but haven’t given up. Now I’m going for someone who is very experienced in treating trauma and someone my gut tells me is right for me.
Does anyone else worry about the social stigma and medical record tracking (ie, cant do certain things if you’ve been treated for “mental illness) attached to getting therapy?
Say Something–
He is not BGE. He is a selfish jerk. However you want to label him, he is SELFISH.
His relations with you ran their course. Period. There could be someone else. There might not be. But whatever the case, he is not ready for a relationship with you.
Take a trip. Get out of your element. This will help you move on.
Used,
You are right. Easier said than done though, otherwise I wouldn’t be on this site.
Say Something,
That’s okay that Used’s words don’t register right now because you are still suffering and hurting. But it’s good to read these responses. They will stick to you eventually and by the time you are healed and ready for acceptance, you will see how truthful these words are. They will make sense. Step at a time. You will get better.
Sofia/ Used,
Yes, I CAN see the selfish jerk (and more… EU, passive aggressive, manipulator, coward..) but I cannot in my mind reconcile these two exact opposite sides of him. I’ve read that black and white thinking is a “borderline trait” but I am not borderline. I can see different sides of people. EXCEPT for him. Eleven months later I still have this cognitive dissonance that is blocking me from accepting this statement: I thought he was the BGE. He wanted me to believe he was/is the BGE. In the end, his words and actions completely contradicted everything I’d believed about him, about his character, his intensions, his feelings toward me, and about the entire relationship.
There was no slow fade, no discussing, just an explosion of words, spoken in a cold, dismissive tone, that have left me trying to reconcile what I witnessed with what I thought I knew. Polarizing. No way THAT is the BGE. Cognitive dissonance I guess and I need to accept that BGE image was to
manipulate. But seriously, who can be THAT convincing? All that time and energy? Who does that? Yeah, he did. I know.
Hi Used and Say Something, can you tell me what’s BGE? I can’t figure this one out for myself, the closest I came to in the Urban Dictionary is 1. Best Girlfriend Ever – but this is a man we’re talking about, right?
Of course the other options it gives me are 2. a Bisexual Group of Elves, and 3. a Brilliant Glowing Erection. 🙂 V.
Haha V,
I thought he was the Best Guy Ever (BGE) and clearly that is not true for me. I was so disillusioned, that minutes after I left his house for the last time after TLW (the last weekend), that I pulled over and texted him, thanking him for being the greatest guy I’d ever known and told him how much I’d miss him. Then he told me I’d been great too. (just NOT GREAT ENOUGH?) I believed. I believed. I believed he was still the BGE even though he was emotionally w-r-e-c-k-i-n-g me. Because BGE was caring, and affectionate. BGE was on my side, by my side. I could TRUST BGE NO MATTER WHAT. (oops)
I was SERIOUSLY in shock and still under his spell. What else makes sense? No other explanation, because THIS BEHAVIOR is not like any behavior I can recall. Months later I did break NC and let him know that I was wrong for believing he was the BGE. Never heard frpm him again.
Oh hi Say Something. Look:
“I thought he was the BGE and clearly that is not true for me.” It’s not true for me either, given the appalling way in which he behaved towards you (I read your story on the previous thread). And I’m sure it’s not true for any woman who has received the same treatment before you or will receive the same treatment after you. So I’d rather say ‘That is not true’ (full stop).
“I could TRUST BGE NO MATTER WHAT”: this is an illusion and an abdication of responsibility. Only a child HAS to trust the people he is in the care of and we all know sometimes it doesn’t go too well.
“SPELL” and “ILLUSION” are the appropriate words for describing this situation.
“I picked #1. Of course she asked why, and I said “because that would mean that he’s normal and I’m the crazy one.”” Here lays the key, and it’s going to be painful: WHO in your childhood hurt you so badly and denied it afterwards, letting you understand that you were crazy for thinking that they did it or that it was wrong what they did?
Disclaimer: I am no therapist nor want to be one; what insight I have – if it works as an insight for you too – comes from putting together my own sh*t.
Best, V.
That’s too funny!!! 🙂
Say Something, I think it’s time to change the label for him. Our feelings are influenced by our words and thoughts too. We are what we think, right? So if you think of him and call him as BGE, it will be harder to see him otherwise. Create a new label for him, that would describe a man with whom you don’t want to share your life. Maybe BFE. Best Fake Ever. Lots of variations. Or more simple and straightforward, without any labels or accusations (anger keeps us stuck too), just the ex. That’s what I call that person I used to know.
V,
I know he can’t be the BGE but it still confuses me how he could seemingly transform into someone I didn’t even recognize. People have said that the guy I saw at the end is who he really is. I have no other evidence, only my experience. I can’t comprehend how or why he could or would do that.
Why did I trust him so much? I never thought that trusting him was irresponsible.
Really, I don’t know that I have deep childhood / parenting scars. Maybe friendships gone awry, high school crap, my marriage? Not sure, as nothing clearly stands out. So where does my thinking come from and why am I feeling guilty?
Thank you for making me think.
I think, Sofia, that I’ll change BGE when I’ve come to “acceptance” of who he is. It’s so strange, because logically I know he can’t be the BGE. Not for me. And maybe there will never be a BGE. And I know some of you say that you’re Ok if you never have that. It’s the one think I feel is so unattainable. And I’m NOT saying well, if I never find someone, I’m fine. Personally, I’m not ok with that right now.
What V wrote here got to me:
“If my heart aches I go to somebody who loves me and cry in their arms. If I am lucky enough to have somebody.”
Well, I’m not lucky. How sick is it to seek comfort from the person who is hurting you? That’s what I did eleven months ago, as he was feeding me lines of crap. Right before I left and never saw him again I lost it, and turned to him because at the time I didn’t know what else to do. I remember him saying, “please don’t cry.” followed by “I guess you can’t help it.”
And right before I left for good, he had his arms around me, and it felt like he wasn’t going to let go. But then I stepped away. I got in my car and he leaned in to kiss me goodbye. Twice. And then he went on and lived his life without me.
Used:
“His relations with you ran their course. Period. There could be someone else. There might not be. But whatever the case, he is not ready for a relationship with you.”
Yes. It’s like you pulled gold out of the deep mine finally. That’s essentially what it is. Applies to my former relationship too. I have accepted this simple truth only fairly recently. Not overnight. It came gradually to me.
Hi Veracity,
Sometimes it seems like therapy is the new black. Even so, only a few people know that I see anyone. My family does not even know, only my sister.
Employers don’t (unless maybe it’s top secret governmental work) have access to medical records.
Speaking with s therapist does not mean someone had a mental health diagnosis. My boss and my supervisor at work both have sought therapy and are highly functioning, intelligent people. Neither has a mental health diagnosis, nor do I.
That being said, FOR ME, I do not broadcast the fact that I see a therapist. I think there is more stigma around “I’m seeing a therapist because I allowed some guy’s decision to destroy my sense of self, ability to trust, happiness, and outlook of the future”. THAT statement would be socially unacceptable I think, so I keep it to myself.
Say Something,
Your words “I’m seeing a therapist because I allowed some guy’s decision to destroy my sense of self, ability to trust, happiness, and outlook of the future”. really made me think.
I am trying my best to work thru it alone. This mans decision has had a major impact on my life. Weekends are really tough for me. We use to spend them together.
Now, I better get busy finding some things to do. When I read your words it hit me. No one person should have this much impact. But they do. I am determined to get past this. Say Something WE CAN DO THIS!!
Mary Jane,
We CAN and we HAVE TO!
When I need to, have it down to an elevator speech:
I met a guy.
I fell in love.
He broke my heart.
Sometimes that’s all anyone needs to know. One guy. Life-altering impact. But we are HERE and we will make positive changes. Even though change is uncomfortable and sometimes painful. We already know pain and we’ve lived through it. If there is happiness at the end of change, we work through the pain to get there. We HAVE to.
I just saw a quote that was very helpful and very true: “Don’t get upset with persons or situations. Both are powerless without your reaction.” My therapist focused a lot of time on getting me to see that what I perceived as absolute truth (“this guy made me feel x, y and z”) was nothing more than an illusion, a story line I was telling myself. The reaction was happening in ME, not in the external world, and certainly not in the actions of this other person. What he did or didn’t do was irrelevant to how I chose to feel about it – and it was my choice. I was not helpless in the matter. When I finally got this (and it took about 3 years of therapy!) it was a huge, empowering moment. Not saying I’m an expert at practicing it, and I can still be hurt and disappointed by others, but it doesn’t last long anymore, it really doesn’t.
Also reminds me of a piece of wisdom that I think is brilliant and if everyone here could really get this, it would change their lives: “It’s not life’s tragedies that destroy our happiness; it’s our own tragic response to the tragedies that destroys our happiness.”
I’ve been working on this and practicing this as well, Wiser. Your quote reminds me of this one: “It’s not the circumstances that matter, it’s what we say about the circumstances that matter.” I collect quotes and use them as affirmations.
Wiser,
“It’s not life’s tragedies that destroy our happiness; it’s our own tragic response to the tragedies that destroys our happiness.”
I wish I could respond better to my broken engagement. My current response is that I am devastated and my happiness is destroyed for now.
Some days even working out is TOUGH. My thoughts are just too heavy some days to be my best. I wish I could say this LIAR is not getting the best of me. He has rocked my world. Things in my life are just not the same. So, according to this quote I am taking myself down this painful road.
I gotta let go. I need to stop ruminating.
Mary Jane,
It’s not an easy quote to ponder, but I think that with some reflection you’ll find that it’s true. Of course you feel deeply hurt at the moment and happiness seems impossible, but the point of the quote is that where you land on the continuum of being hurt by the actions of another (ranging from just being disappointed on one end to being completely destroyed on the other) depends on how much power you give to others to be the source of your happiness. Other people cannot be the source of your happiness. Even spouses. Even fiances. Even your children. I know this sounds like a shocking statement, but all the wisdom traditions of the world affirm this reality. True happiness is a inherent quality that has nothing to do with other people. Yes, I know that does sound shocking.
Knowing how to be deeply grounded in something beyond external events is a life skill of resilience that we all MUST learn or we will be blown about by what other people do or fail to do, by life’s tragedies and losses, and by the disappointments that pile up the longer we live. Tragedies ARE going to happen… and it is possible (not easy, but possible!) to respond from a deeply rooted center of peace, self-love, union with God, etc. that the world cannot give and cannot take away. I am lucky to know a couple of people who live this way, and it’s amazing how well they weather the storms of life! I wish everyone had such a person in their life to model this.
I’m so sorry your fiance hurt you and I know how much it hurts. I also believe you have deep resources within you that you perhaps haven’t tapped yet. The power to respond differently and see your situation from new perspectives is definitely there. Reclaim your power from this bozo! As you said, no one person should have this much impact. Exactly!
I agree. It’s nobody’s business that you are in counseling. There is no stigma at all. I don’t know why people think so. And if they do, who cares?
Say Something,
I couldn’t respond in the previous post because there were no buttons to Reply left.
You bring a good point that I will bring to the counselor when I meet her: “Sofia, maybe feeling numb and indifferent is because you are somewhat suppressing your pain. I’m not sure. It can wax and wane. There are triggers. There is PTSD. I’ve also read about Post Traumatic Relationship Syndrome. It discusses intimate betrayal and how/why it is so deeply hurtful. Try CBT, I wrote to you in the next post. Can’t hurt.” I have researched on PTSD and am thinking I might have that. I don’t think I suppressed my pain because I talked about it to 2-3 very close friends and they were always there for me to listen. I cried it out and always felt out thoroughly each phase of my grieving. My faith has been healing me. I think it might be the burnout from it all and PTSD might creep on one like that in the aftermath of everything happening. Not immediate but as a residue that sticks. Not sure. Just guessing. But I have had enough of guessing and procrastinating. Got to get to the bottom and depth of me, finally, so I can move on to a happier life.
P.S. I see your kids are grown already. It’s good. Younger kids need their parents’ attention. It would be hard for you to dedicate your time and energy to them right now. Imagine that. They would have been affected too. So you have time to take care of you now.
Sofia,
Feeling numb means not feeling pain, thus not being able to feel happiness either, right? That’s why I commented about suppressing pain. It’s lessened for you since last year from what you say, but sounds like you aren’t quite through. And you’re realizing that you need a new approach. You are smart and working toward feeling wonderful again!
Say Something,
I do have moments of happiness. Feeling content. It’s good. Probably I am not depressed overall. Just something gnawing at me and makes me feel stuck. That’s what I will discuss with the therapist. I think I found one. Will have a session hopefully this week.
About pain, yes, it’s like I am indifferent and have been to all the pain I have had since the breakup. Perhaps I just ran out of fuel to feel pain! It will come back probably temporarily. Just cycles I guess, which is more normal, I think, than being stuck in one place.
Veracity, I have to defend younger therapists here. My first attempt was with a creepy man (described above) with all the best credentials and membership cards and he was obviously with a long history of being a health professional. I understand the concern with younger folk. But if one does not have enough funds or barely any – it is one of the options. And why I have recommended it.
The praised therapists or those who were in the profession for years can be equally creepy and outright dangerous too.
Veracity, but is this true? I went to a private counsellor and there was no medical tracking record. Also, he was mainly a grief counsellor. People have therapy for all sort of reasons, they are not automatically filed under “mental illness” which is so heavy as a label. I think this is mostly an ‘irrational’ fear of yours, try to get some information on how these things really work, and you’ll be in a better position to decide how to go about it. V.
Yes, so I read Say Something’s answer above and Veracity you can see for yourself that everyone projects their fears on the new/unknown interaction object.
*She* is going to therapy on the wake of her relationship’s demise, so what she thinks is socially unacceptable is “I’m seeing a therapist because I allowed some guy’s decision to destroy my sense of self, ability to trust, happiness, and outlook of the future”. (is loving somebody a crime? is going to therapy a punishment?)
*You* are afraid of being considered “mentally ill” (whatever that means), by ‘society’ (whatever that means) and so that’s what you attach to therapy.
I’d say that it’s just going to the doctor’s when one’s not feeling well. If my tooth aches, I go to the dentist, if my head aches I go to the psychologist, and if my hearts aches I go to somebody who loves me and cry in their arms. If I am lucky enough to have somebody. And for those who believe, God is always there.
Best wishes and best luck to you gals. V.
PS: the doctor must be a good one otherwise he only makes matters much, much worse
V,
Is loving somebody a crime?
That got me. Because… I feel like my REACTION (grief) is somehow wrong in that it hasn’t ended, so my guilt. And I have a competent therapist who points out that it’s ok to feel how I feel, that I’m doing the best I can, that casting judgment on myself for not recovering quicker is not helpful. Sometimes I leave her office in tears, just due to the emotions connected to what I’m talking about. Mostly BGE.
But the ONE THING that has been the most helpful is having a qualified professional assure me that my feelings are normal. Even
so, my feelings are not for the world to know. Boundaries 🙂
And agreed, seeking help in the form of therapy is advocating for yourself. To feel better. until last summer I had never been either. But I need to reclaim my life.
“That got me. Because… I feel like my REACTION (grief) is somehow wrong in that it hasn’t ended, so my guilt. And I have a competent therapist who points out that it’s ok to feel how I feel, that I’m doing the best I can, that casting judgment on myself for not recovering quicker is not helpful.”
I can definitely relate!
“But the ONE THING that has been the most helpful is having a qualified professional assure me that my feelings are normal. Even
so, my feelings are not for the world to know. Boundaries :)”
Yes. I think in my desire to connect here I have crossed that line and then ended up feeling bad/wrong.
I’m still working out the kinks on what is the appropriate boundary for me.
Say Something and Sofia,
I was online reading today and ran across this quote (see below). I just bet he knows I am sitting here in pain. He knows the damage he has done.
He told me once about how his Dad hurt him. His Dad was married to his Mom and another woman at the same time. When his Dad came home from a trip he gave several kids around the neighborhood a watch.
When my ex ran out to show the kids the watch his Dad gave him all of the other children already had the same watch from his Dad. He said it crushed him. I have to wonder if the way he was hurt as a child- he is passing out hurt in major heaps to people who love him.
This is the kind of analysis I consume myself with. The bottom line is that he is a grown adult man who knows right from wrong. What he did to me was dirty. I pray to God that I accept and let this go and can find something to be happy about again. I would give everything I have to erase this HURT.
There are days I really don’t even know if GOD is around anymore because the pain is that BAD.
The quote reads:
“I won’t telephone him. I’ll never telephone him again as long as I live. He’ll rot in hell, before I’ll call him up. You don’t have to give me strength, God; I have it myself. If he wanted me, he could get me. He knows where I am. He knows I’m waiting here. He’s so sure of me, so sure. I wonder why they hate you, as soon as they are sure of you.”
? Dorothy Parker, The Portable Dorothy Parker
V (again),
Keep thinking of your words:
“Is loving somebody a crime?”
Hmmm, for me yes, I guess it feels like I’m guilty of that, and this pain and suffering is my punishment. Totally how I’ve been living for 11 months.
And Wiser’s quote,
Well, I agree that how we react makes all the difference. But other people CAN do things that will impact how we feel. If someone completely betrays your trust. I admit that I have had a tragic response. I know I’m not helpless to ever feel better, but I still haven’t figured out that acceptance thing. I still have to meld BGE and guy who never wanted to see me again into the one person that he is.
V.,
Well said. God is always with us. Even we, who believe, we fall and can’t get up sometimes. Our faith helps us, but life situations still drag us down. Therapy, for believers, is not the main instrument for healing, but is a secondary one, I think. It’s important for navigating the depths of one’s psyche, going through the maze of one’s feelings, doubts, and fears. We do know the ultimate purpose and the end of it all, but still, life gets tough to get on your own, sometimes. I am seeking counseling to assess my current stuck situation, whether this is a low feeling caused by grief or current professional circumstances, or the combination. I feel I need an objective view to assess my situation and give a constructive criticism and feedback, as well as to give me some push and maybe not a gentle one. Tough love and empathy are good in combination and balance. I hope I will find the right person. The good thing I have been interested in psychology and counseling for some time and analyzed myself quite a bit. Co-dependency, child of alcoholics, abandonment, you name it. Things that many of us can relate. I think it is strength and power back to us, seeking for help. It means we want to get better. We know there is a better life for us. We just need a push or a kick in the butt for some of us. The objective and professional observation and analysis are helpful, I am hoping. My friend who studied psychology said that, “you can read as much as you want to, but professionals are trained and they see and know what you don’t from your reading books alone. They know how to structure the problem, decipher it and get you on the path of resolving what keeps you stuck and unhappy.” Looking forward to finding one.
V., When I read your initial response to me, and then the others, I felt defensive and hurt. I’ve had an emotionally challenging week and was feeling beaten down and I received it as my feelings are wrong. I think it was the “irrational” part, in particular.
I did my best to reconcile those feeling and then chose my response. However, my response likely reflects some of those feelings because I was in reactive mode.
If I had instead chosen to wait to respond (sometimes fall back into that “gotta do it now” reaction) when I was somewhat rested, and had time to process it, I would have responded differently. I would have recognized that feeling of defensiveness and examined it rather than reacting to it.
Practice, practice, practice.
This response from you:”*You* are afraid of being considered “mentally ill” (whatever that means), by ‘society’ (whatever that means) and so that’s what you attach to therapy.” Yes. That resonates with me.
So does “WHO in your childhood hurt you so badly and denied it afterwards, letting you understand that you were crazy for thinking that they did it or that it was wrong what they did?” An irrational, “mentally ill” person.
This is a gift.
Thank you, V. Sorry about the defensive response initially.
Veracity no worries!! I don’t know what defensiveness you’re referring to, I find no hint of it even after re-reading your message, but it is your right to defend yourself if you feel attacked you know, so if it happens in the future it only means that we’ll exchange some more posts and clear it up! You don’t need to practice and wait, at least not for me!
Also sometimes I am lazy and have a tendency to be (too) concise, so generally speaking when I use single quotes I mean to say that the terms are too general to have any real meaning to me but I am using them to cut it short.
‘Irrational’ = not yet rational, meaning understood in its current context; ‘society’: too abstract it has to be seen which real people in your life are representing that; ‘mental illness’ doesn’t mean anything at all to me, if somebody tells me “you’re mentally ill” I don’t take offense because it has no intrinsic negative meaning for me (but it has for them – their problem). So when I wrote that it is a heavy label, I meant to say don’t let that weight on you. Phew!! Now that I write this, I wonder how on earth I could think that you could understand my point!
Oh well… 🙂 Best, V.
I agree. At first I did not quite understand the correlation between going into therapy and a mental illness. If anything, I think people who decide to go into therapy are already a step ahead of those who need it and are not.
I see therapy as another faucet of help. Are you ashamed of accepting help? Do you think it says something of you if someone’s offering help or if you’re asking for it?
Also, screening for a mental illness is not the same as a regular session. It can be done during sessions but the process is much more complicated and I am not sure I understand where the two (going to see a therapist and mental illness) connect here. Fyi, “The standard manual used by experts for the diagnosis of recognized mental illness in the U.S. is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorder (DSM), which is compiled by the American Psychiatric Association”.
People go into therapy for all sorts of reasons. But I think the main reason is that they want to get better. To be better. To lead a healthier life and healthier relationships. Isn’t it a sign of strength rather than weakness?
V. compared it to a fitness class in terms of money. And I like this comparison very much. Seeing a qualified therapist is like growing muscles but on the inside. Strengthening your immune system again assclownerism and EUritis and other deadly diseases 😉 Not everyone needs therapy, but if you do – why the hell not? We’re here on BR because we want to get better and lead better lives and stop procrastinating in unavailable relationships.
Say Something, I think you get my tone of this question…light, as in “hey, have you ever felt/thought this?” It was a spontaneous question, not something I’ve fretted over. I was/am just curious.
I know employers cannot ask about it, nor would I advertise it, to anyone. 🙂
I’ve learned that they might not tell you have a diagnosis, but in order to get insurance to pay it, you have to get one. (depression, anxiety, etc..)
Why, I agree. I’m sure there are some wonderful grad students out there and it is a great option, especially when funds are tight. That’s why I tried it. I’m also sure there are some creepy/terrible, experienced therapists out there. Just like everything else in the world, some good, some not so good.
V., Yes, it is true, if you use insurance. I don’t know about the UK, but where I live it is. I paid in cash before, so it wasn’t an issue.
Yes, “mental illness” is a heavy label. Didn’t mean to offend anyone. Unfortunately depression is considered/labeled a mental illness. I’m personally not a fan of the labeling, but for my question above it was accurate usage of the term.
Veracity,
I guess we can all feel like we’ve crossed lines and boundaries here. We’re here to learn, heal, and help each other, yes? And asking for clarification, or posing questions can be helpful when done out of respect and an authentic sense of care. I welcome others’ ideas, opinions, questions, yours included 🙂
Say Something,
“I guess we can all feel like we’ve crossed lines and boundaries here. We’re here to learn, heal, and help each other, yes?” Yes, that’s why I’m here. 🙂
“And asking for clarification, or posing questions can be helpful when done out of respect and an authentic sense of care. I welcome others’ ideas, opinions, questions, yours included” Absolutely. Thanks! Right back at you! 🙂
The crossing boundaries comment I made included working out the kinks of where my boundaries are in relation to how much I share.
Veracity,
I don’t worry about any stigma at all. I don’t think there is any stigma. First of all, it’s our mental health and it doesn’t matter what people think. Nobody has to know if that bothers you. Secondly, I don’t even think there is any stigma associated with going through a therapy. If it were less expensive I would start going long time ago and revisit! At this point I am holding off mainly because of the finances and thinking how to find the right match. My work covers first 3 sessions. That will help. I also always loved studying psychology. I have read lots of material and enjoyed analyzing myself and other people. My mother was depressed, suffered from alcoholism and ended up with schizophrenia from alcohol abuse and hurting herself by falling, being hit by a car, and attempting to commit a suicide. I have a suspicion she has been suffering depression since very young age, but everyone ignored it and she ignored herself as well. If she had only had help, things would have been different for her now. There is help out there, but many people don’t reach out. It is wonderful that we are self-aware and seeking help and rebuilding our lives so that we can enjoy the years ahead.
Sofia,
That’s great that it doesn’t bother you and that you don’t think there is a stigma.
I understand what you’re saying about your mom and how if she had sought treatment things would have been different. Ironically, I grew up being shamed and excluded for my mother’s mental health issues. So, I have experienced the stigma attached to mental health issues. I also witnessed how she was shamed and excluded by the neighbors. Unfortunately, her need for treatment was known in the neighborhood. Back then it wasn’t as accepted as it is now.
Yes, I agree, in the hands of a skilled therapist, it’s fantastic! You don’t need to convince me. I also have an interest in psychology and read everything I can get my hands on. I think it’s pretty common for folks that grow up in dysfunctional homes. I wonder if it helps us feel like we have some control over it that way.? Helps to ease that feeling of being powerless??
Veracity there you have touched the core of the problem:
“I also witnessed how she was shamed and excluded by the neighbors.”
Your neighbours were sh*tty people in that particular circumstance, and you need to kick them out of your mind. You have internalised that judgment, as it is obvious because it was so heavy and you were only a child. Fight them now, now you’re stronger and wiser. You could put pen to paper and write out what you would tell them now that you couldn’t tell them then. I think it was Natalie who wrote Some people occupy space in your head – raise the rent and kick them out. Best, V.
You’re right, V., they were sh*tty people in that regard. I’ve looked at it and recognize it’s BS. I’ll do that exercise and evict them. Thank you! Veracity
Veracity,
I think you are right. I became interested in psychology in my early twenties. Maybe back then I started getting an idea that something was not right with me. So I started digging into my childhood patterns and how I grew up. Reading helps and reveals a lot. It explains things to us and enables us to feel in control and have some power because we grew up in the chaos and stress.
Veracity, I wonder sometimes about the medical labeling that goes on and how it can prevent you from getting care. Dont think about it. Its life. There are some risks worth taking. And I’m not even sure its a problem in the first place. Therapy is better than the alternative – feeling out of control and going crazyyyyy!! I value therapy. I think more people should have it so we have less pain and emotional anguish around us. I dont see therapy as making me incapable, makes me more capable since I saw a problem and took care of it.
Suki, I hadn’t wondered about the medical tracking before my regular Dr. pointed it out to me, in reference to something else. With the new electronic medical records it’s easier for that stuff to be tracked.
Clearly, I’m not letting it hold me back as I stated above, I am in the process of looking for a therapist.
I agree, therapy is much better than the alternative. I value therapy too. I actually wish that is was provided to everyone, like treatment for diabetes or whatever. Everyone could benefit from it. I work with children and it pains me to see their mental health struggles (rage, depression, helplessness, etc..) and wish they could have therapy to help them heal. I had a 2nd grade boy attack one of his female classmates in a fit of rage on Friday. It took 3 of us to pull him off and hold him. Poor guy.
“I dont see therapy as making me incapable, makes me more capable since I saw a problem and took care of it.”
I agree. Not sure why that was added. Did you take from what I wrote that I think that??
Veracity, no, I just said that since there are people that ridicule mental health problems or insist that they dont need therapy, they probably need to hear that. I have friends that are having such a hard time in life, legitimately hard time but feel the stigma of therapy and keep floundering on.
Initially Veracity – yes – but then I realised I would be in more trouble without it, so….and personal medical records here are private and cannot be divulged without your permission – I don’t know clearly where you are but ask any therapist you see next what the situations is where you are? And what sort of diagnoses have to be disclosed to other bodies upon their request?
OMG, “And the ‘let me see how much lower I can bring myself/how little I can survive on’ type of self-hatred and masochism…” That is SOOO *me*. At least I can laugh about it now! Hugs to you 🙂
Why,
Wow. Your words are incredible. “These guys were never there to begin with. I think it’s important to realize that our fear will indeed come true but what we’ll gain is LOVE. Because the crumbs we have had with EUMs are not love. So we need to get real: what did we lose?”
This is what I’m constantly asking myself lately. What did I lose, besides the drama of it all? And I’m realizing he was never really ‘there’ to begin with. (I think, since just writing that brought up the tears and constricted throat, that part of this sadness is being disappointed in myself for choosing so poorly. 🙁 )
It wasn’t me. It’s him. I have done nothing wrong. He has done this before and will do it again. How sad. How grateful I am to be capable of having loving healthy relationships.
Demke,
Your words really struck a cord with me. My broken engagement due to betrayal has stolen my peace of mind. The disrespect he showed me by sleeping with someone has stolen my quality of life. I have given up so much for this lying, cheating piece of garbage.
I want to focus my energy on the things as you say that really MATTER. I am reading about letting go, acceptance and forgiveness. I want to start living again. I could be doing a million other productive things. I am hurt and stuck. The days roll by so fast now they just bleed into each other.
I want to let go like you have. There will be no next time with him. While he was with me- he set up another relationship and the transition was easy for him. When I caught him he just moved on with her. Now, I am trying to start over.
Mary Jane, you say “I have given up so much for this lying, cheating piece of garbage”. What have you given up specifically? Take it back!!
It doesn’t sound like you need to work on “letting go, acceptance and forgiveness”. It sounds like you’re volcano angry but haven’t expressed it fully yet. That is a powerful force you’re storing there, let it out and ride it! Then you will be readier to deal with the acceptance and forgiveness stage. V.
I love your advice, V. Beautiful.
I feel so much anger too – what are healthy ways of letting it out? I’ve already torn up and thrown away everything he ever gave me!
Demke
It has been a long time since I have had the urge to reply to a response on here. Although I still often come back and read the latest blogs.
Your post made me fill up, it was so true to how I was feeling over a year ago now. I finally realised after two years of being with a EUM that I was scared of facing the pain of letting go, scared of how much more disrespect I was going to take, scared of how much lower my self esteem would go. I finally did it 15 months ago now and have had NC with him since. I do still wonder about how I ever let myself get into such a bad situation and let someone make me feel so unworthy.
As you rightly say I have a family who love me and friends who love me and I appreciate that so much more now.
I cant say I regret what happened because I believe I am a stronger person now. Things really do get better with time and when you can stop blaming yourself for what happened.
This forum has been a huge help to me over the years and I enjoyed reading your story.
Best wishes
This behaviour acting very interested, being caring, talking about a future then going cold and acting like a person you hardly recognise is false advertising. Manufacturers would be prosecuted for this.
Is this why some follow “The Rules” to keep the other person on their toes so they can give the impression that they haven’t been won over yet?!
Maybe because when I follow the rules, I filter men who are looking for sex, the pump and dumpers or as you described above, the false advertisers.
There are so many reasons men do this (as do women) but we need to filter and SOME of the Rules do this and some are downright weird.
NML, you have created a tribe, whether you know it or not, I am so grateful for your work and this post. Part of the problem with these “Unavailables”, is indeed our own problems from childhood and the ability to read the mood of our so-called, “family of origin” and the abusive upbringing many of us survived and the people pleasing nonsense we utilized and brought on to our other relationships. I have read almost everything you have written about this and I got real about what I was no longer willing to do for the sake of a “realtionshit” as we here at BR, refer to it. The other problem, at least for me, was the “future faking” I had no idea about these “Unavailables” ability to lie, mine actually bought me a ring, told me he wanted to spend the rest of his life with me and yada, yada, yada, you know the rest of the story. I am so grateful now, I know about red flags and other behaviors. If it wasn’t for the fact that you educated me about this, I may STILL be with an assclown. So sad for Mr. Assclown, who was carted off to the psych ward. A 49 year old British man, who tried to masquerade as a 28 year old Austrailian while trying to flirt with a mental healthcare professional on the phone and was dragged off to the psych ward by the police. True Story! Sometimes, their karma really does catch up to these idiots. Sometimes, you are dealing with someone, that mentally ill. It was the most delicious moment of my life. I will never be caught out again by these jokers. Get away from these toxic people, run as fast as you can at the first sign. Had I known about this blog, I would have never been in this situation. Live and learn. No contact saved me. That was the other important lesson I learned here. Thanks Nat!
@Lucky, sometimes I have wondered if my former EUM was also mentally ill. The last time we met up, months ago, after having not seen him for about 3 years, we ended up making out. Call it a very weak moment on my part. Anyway, about a week later, he acted like nothing had happened, and that in fact he didn’t remember anything like that happening. At the time, I thought he was gaslighting me, but it went so far beyond his typical b.s. that I truly began to wonder if he’s mentally ill. I wouldn’t be totally shocked if I hear about a psych ward in his future.
“Unavailable relationships and basically any relationship where we don’t truly get to be us and live, is really about hiding out and fear of being ‘seen’. We don’t run the risk of being us (we fear allowing somebody to get close enough to us that they won’t like what we’ve already been judging us for) and we get to avoid taking responsibility for how we feel and continue to feel, because we can focus on what the other person is doing or our so-called imperfections.”
Natalie, you nailed it. In the past few years I really worked on myself and consider myself emotionally available, but I can say the past year I’ve hit a rough patch with my self esteem and that’s exactly when another mr. unavailable popped up in my life. His disappearance shook me for a bit, but I’m thankfully back to normal and seeing how this was just another incident where I let something that wasn’t working go on for too long because I wasn’t ready to face my own feelings of unworthiness and low self esteem. I did feel like I was editing myself with him, and I felt like he was doing the same with me. I’ve made an effort to address the parts of my life I was feeling insecure about, and with that I’m gaining back the loving relationship with myself that I briefly lost again. I know now that if I encounter an EUM who behaved the way the last guy did, and I feel like I’m starting to edit myself out of feeling shameful, I would hit the brakes real quick. It’s all about loving yourself enough to know that you are worthy of someone who will treat you with love, care, trust, and respect, as you deserve. No less is acceptable.
Tea Time,
Like Demke says above, editing is dimming our own light. When are we ready to publish and stand strong in bold, headline font? No comic sans allowed.
Say Something – I love that. I want to live in bold, headline font all the time!
Great post Natalie :). It is so true, why do we want to engage with people who are eu? Why do we want love and validation from people who are clearly not available to give us that? I think, like you said, that some of us start out in relationships emotionally available but change ourselves and become more and more eu as we spend time with and get entwined with eu men/people. As my mom always used to say, “if you hang out with assholes, you’re going to become an asshole.”
For anyone who’s been following my story, I’ve been struggling lately to disentangle myself from my feelings for the mm-jackass I was seeing in the fall/winter. I spent a good many years with a great guy prior to this, so it shocked me when I realized that this mm wasn’t the man I thought he was and didn’t love me the way I thought he did. I feel I was pretty available at the time, but as his eu-ability started to show itself, I began to twist myself more and more to make the whole story fit; to allow him to continue to be the man I had made him out to be in my mind (but he wasn’t).
I am trying to let go and I appreciate so much all the support I have received here. I’ve been journaling a lot (lots of anger towards him still and hurt) but I’m trying to get it out so I can heal and move on. I had a good night playing music with a friend and made a list of things I want to do this summer to improve my life and reconnect with the happy awesome person I know I am. Top of the list is get a new job.
Anyways, great post. Why do we seek love and validation and relationships from the most terrible candidates? This is a question I’ll have to ponder.
Ps. Had another job meet & greet today. Things are moving slowly, but I am hoping one of these leads turns into a bite soon. Just waiting for an actual vacancy..
@Leanne: So whatever happened to “the great guy prior to the mm-jackass”? V.
He’s still around and we are still friends. Working on what we want to do from here, but I don’t want to just jump back into things because clearly there is a reason this came up. I think he is actually more like a really good friend, but I don’t know. My assessment of relationships is so off right now. Moving slowly in my love life now..
Oh I see. You could lean a bit on him for support then, providing that he can/wants to help you. I think it’s invaluable to speak with somebody who loves and cares about you (in the friendship sense). V.
And Leanne, both Colly and I have written something about anxiety meds in the previous thread, I don’t know if you have read those comments (and I apologise if you have and I appear insistent, it’s just that I think it’s so important). Best, V.
Thanks V. and others, yeah I’m only going to stay on the anxiety mess for as short a time as I can and I’m trying to stay off the booze too. Doing tons of thought-work. My anxiety and sadness, anger and disappointment about this seem to flare up at night, but I’m feeling great today. Just need more time to pass and to get really busy rebuilding my own awesome life I guess. I have a work event next week that’s a big annual thing and pretty sure he’ll probably be there. Not sure if I should skip it or show up and ignore him/steer clear. I don’t want to miss out on everything and become a work hermit, but I also don’t want a set back. Probably best to skip.
Hi Leanne, Have you ever heard of Rescue Remedy? It’s a homeopathic (natural) stress remedy. It might be worth a try after you wean off your anxiety meds.
Hi Leanne,
Your post brought a smile to my face, it feels very different from your earliest posts. I came to this website in October. When I read your posts in the past, I thought that continuing to work with that man wasn’t very helpful to your well-being. But times are hard nowadays, few people can afford to leave a good job without a new one lining up. I hope that all your Summer wishes come true and that you get an equally or better new job.
Thanks truth, means a lot to know there are people out there that I don’t know who care. Hop you are doing well too!
Because I lack self esteem because of my childhood with my narcissistic mother who neglected me unless it was to show off for her image.
Because I was abandoned by my entire family over some silly rumour my own mother spread that I assure you was not true.
Because if I play with someone as fuked up as this latest man, then if it fails it wont break my heart as much (except it did because I was wondering my worth when someone as screwed up as him didn’t want me).
It’s just self perpetuating. I’ve learned some much about myself in the past 2 years. I think I’m coming out of my cocoon. It’s just taking a lot longer than most.
I’ve learned how to make female friends who have been wonderful to me without having to be overly vulnerable with them. In saying that I’ve learned how to swallow my pride and ask for help (even if I do it in a very round about way because my pride is still there). I don’t females anymore, many actually really like despite my earlier experiences.
I admit I was unavailable despite me thinking I was available. I took years to see this. Maybe some of us have an avoidance attachment style because it’s safer. We have attracted ourselves in a male form.
I’m now practicing not worry about uncertainty. It’s OK to love and be possibly hurt but I’m taking not taking the risk on the risky. I’m aiming for a man who asks about me, talks about me (and not only himself), who treats those around him well and has good relationships with those in his past (doesn’t have a trail of angry people – the only exception to this rule is the man who has a harem of past lovers – NO THANKS!).
I think I’m getting it Nat. I love you all how your words have saved me further pain. I think I’m shifting and changing. I can feel it.
I enjoy the slight anger and the slight not giving a shite (so it’s only a little bit but baby steps). I enjoy reminding myself I’m a stubborn bull and I’ve gotten over him after 2 years and 2 months.
I will never ever “hang” with a married man again. Karma bit me in the ass and I deserved it but I’ve paid my dues and I’ve done much much more to make up for it it sooo many ways. I’ve learned I’m not evil, just vulnerable and gullible but that is an excuse for the past me, not the new me. The new me is wiser and stronger
Thank you tribe.
Hi Sugar Babe,
I can definitely to your final paragraph, I’ve been gullible and naive in the past. I was so desperate to be liked that I basically broke down all my boundaries. It started shortly after I turned 30, when the race to find a man and have a started. I became a major people pleaser, and some people including friends and family took advantage of that. I remember shutting out my instinct when I would get a bad premonition. I always edited the parts that didn’t feel good or knew to be straight up lies. I now shudder when I think of the people I use to call friends.
edit
*I can relate to your final paragraph…
*The race to find a man and have a family started…
We are just delaying the inevitable when we stay with people who are using us/EU. Accept them for who they are and grieve the loss of what you wanted them to be/needed them to be. Let them go and focus on getting those needs met somewhere else.
Being a 29 year old man, who had never really had a serious relationship with someone, I had found what I thought was a great woman who I met online. I didn’t know about the emotionally unavailable people or ‘assclown’ behavior. I figured walls were something people typically put up as a natural part of human behavior. This woman basically told me how messed up she was. She wasn’t over her ex(es). Yes you read that correctly, she was still carrying baggage from multiple ex-boyfriends. It appeared her baggage was just compounding over the years and intensifying into this dangerous critical mass that she unloaded in my face. So much so that I heard all about her ex-boyfriends almost nonstop in a constant barrage. The rest of the story is irrelevant. She basically had an iron clad fortress built up inside her. The final result was I was hurt very badly. I opened up to her as I had no baggage, no walls, and let her right in. I handed her the keys to the kingdom to my heart and she crushed me. In hindsight, this is no surprise to me now. I *ASSUMED* she would naturally develop feelings for me. I had never considered the possibility that someone would intentionally toy with you like that. She displayed the behavior that confirmed my assumption, until the mask came off and she blew constant cold once she knew I was hooked on her. She was essentially emotionally unavailable, an assclown, and very seriously disordered with her personality. I sure picked a real winner as my first serious relationship experience. I discovered that it reflected on me and my own issues for why I chose to be with a messed up woman. In hindsight, I’m grateful for going through that as it changed who I am in almost every single way. I guess the saying that ‘pain causes people to change’ is really true.
Barrie,
First be wary of anybody you meet online! Second, while you should analyze and understand why you chose to deal the EU woman, don’t let this experience change the core of who your are. Make the changes necessary to protect yourself from future emotionally unavailable women, but don’t shut yourself off from trusting someone with your heart.
Believe me there is a woman out there who will not play with your feelings and will love you just as much as you love her. Remember people have to EARN the right to your heart. Don’t just give people your heart if they don’t deserve it no matter how pretty or good they are in bed.
Barrie, your ex does sound quite disordered. But there are some red flags in your email as well. Your heart is not a kingdom – unless you meant that kind of humorously, we are all just struggling to get along and find someone and figure things out. Some people trample on others in that process, and maybe you got trampled. ‘Keys to the kingdom’ sounds like you feel she somehow won a prize. ‘Let her right in’ sounds also like you too have walls and gave her keys to them and now feel cheated – you treated your relationship as far more serious than it should have been at that point.
And you’re surprised she has baggage from her exes. Talking about exes constantly is a problem. Yet we all carry baggage from our exes in one way or the other – sometimes its good baggage, it made us stronger etc, sometimes it makes us have walls. Its not good to be ruled by that baggage, but dont be surprised at the weaknesses that we all have – because you are not immune. You have baggage too. And you acknowledge that in the end of your post.
I think you expected a lot from her, and she let you down. You opened up and then felt foolish since she obviously is not a good friend. Dont let that stop you from future relationships – just take it slow and be kind, everyone is dealing with problems. Next time someone seems so disordered just be nice, treat them as a friend, and dont depend on them too much or have expectations – they probably won’t be reliable with your feelings. And confide more in others, cautiously, but be open – so that next time you fall in love, you’re not heartbroken at the secrets she takes with her when she leaves because you won’t have been holding them in so long (I totally understand that feeling of being almost cheated of all your little secrets because you told someone and they werent what you thought – mostly you feel cheated and stupid and foolish and it makes you angry at the other person. Its their fault for being flaky, its not their fault that you have been closed off so long that their behavior hurts even more).
Barrie wow your post reads like a complete story with keys and kingdoms… you have grasped an impressive amount of information after one relationship, in-order to analyse your partners behaviour, whom I have never met – I hope this helps your future relationships.
I disagree with you whole heartedly, on your point that it is pain that causes people to change, it may work for you? but it didn’t change me – it is love for myself that changed me – and KNOWING how great a feeling it is, being encouraged to access more of it, getting off my bottom and finding places that could forfil my needs/values and receiving more and more and more of it, until it is starting to be completely normal to me – if it was pain? – I would have changed years ago at the first whiff of it in childhood, when it was at its worst.
Oh my, I am so fucked up into a bad relationship at the moment, deel so lost and scared and constantly seeking my part, where I went wrong, what Ihave to change about me, what he tells I taken so litterally and I keep clinging eventhough he now backs off….I deel like I am so not worth anything :'(
This does not sound good or healthy. Veronica. Time to start writing/posting and listening to your instinct screaming at you.
Ps nothing is as bad as what you are already going through – good luck lady.
I look at back at many of my past relationship and I realized that I was probably unavailable myself. I was young and many of these men I KNEW I really didn’t see them as potential mates, but they were good enough until the right person came along. It didn’t matter to me if we were in a relationship or not because I really didn’t want to be with them long term anyway.
With the last EUM, dealing with him just woke me up to fact that I had some issues I needed to deal with and made me more aware that I had problems that needed to be addressed. You see it’s not that I didn’t want a meaningful relationship, I just didn’t require it. I can honestly say many of my exes weren’t bad guys, just that they weren’t right for me and some ways I think they sensed it to. What’s funny is I realized that every guy I dated got married to the person they were seeing after me!
But that’s okay, because I never really wanted to marry any of them anyway and I think they kinda knew. At the end of the day, once I address my issues, changed my approach to dating, I met and married a great guy. I honestly think if I hadn’t changed my perspective on dating and relationships, I would have fallen into the same pattern. So ladies, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Whether you get married or stay happily single understand that peace and happiness starts with you. If you meet someone fine, if not live and love yourself because that is the greatest gift you can give yourself!
Good Luck on your life’s journey!
Stephanie, thanks for such an optimistic post. I want to clarify something – you wrote it wasn’t that you didn’t want a relationship, it was just that you didn’t require it. Did you mean that you didn’t expect/demand a relationship from your then partner?
Mephista,
I think I was just content being friends with benefits bcuz many of the guys I dated (except the last eum) treated me like we were in a relationship even though we weren’t.
Well said Stephanie and thank you!
Thank you, Natalie! The last and most important piece of the puzzle. Why I wanted this person in the first place. When I imagine him becoming available and actually proposing to me I would run for the hills. The fact that he mistreated me is what kept me hooked. And that’s 100% on me.
My god your timing is impecable! I’ve just started following your blog because I’ve just been dumped after 6 months with the first guy I’ve actually truly fell in love with and I was reading some of your posts which rang true to me but this is another level entirely! This part hit me like a ton of bricks:
We edit ourselves.
Let’s be real: If we’ve been raised in an environment with a lot of tension or where feelings or discussions were a no-no, or where we’ve gotten into the habit of being a pleaser, we can be pretty damn adept at reading a room or reading for what we feel are signs of tension, and then adjusting ourselves.
That is so me it’s not even funny! I was raised by a single mom who had a hard time reconciling raising a child, working full time and going to school at night to be able to get a better job to make ends meet (I’m proud to say she managed to do just that but that’s not the point here). I learned from a pretty young age that the best way I could help her out was to get out of her way as much as possible and make sure I was a good girl that didn’t bring her trouble. She never asked me this but I wanted to be good to her and grew up to be a very accomodating girl. I realised after this recent break up that I was once again, accomodating to the guy even though I wanted more out of the relationship. I was so nice, so good to him. But at the same time, I was quieting my desire for more and putting up with this almost relationship hoping my actions and my being “easy to be with” would make him commit to me. It didn’t! I’m sure there’s more to this of course and he has to realise some things about himself, really, I don’t think my actions are what actually ruined the relationship but it made me feel even worst about it’s demise because I could have ended it much faster if I didn’t have this stupid habit of trying to please people so damn much!I’m not going to go into details about my relationship with him here (it’s all in my blog if you want to know) but this is opening my eyes to a new realisation. I’m miserable right now not only because of him and his indecisiveness but mostly because I let myself stay in this relationship and fall in love with a guy who doesn’t want to be with me in the long run. I have to work on myself.
This post really hits home to me. I am the bubbly vivacious “can-do” type of person who wonders where this all went over the years with my ex. I now see that even though I was emotionally available and eager to build an engaged and communicative relationship, he wasn’t willing to communicate – “why do we want to communicate with partners who don’t want to communicate” I was beating my head against a brick wall! His emotional immaturity and need to put me in a mother role left me confused, angry, guilty and feeling responsible for everything. The more I overfunctioned, the more he under-functioned. I hated the role I was in. Slowly I began to “adapt” by avoiding the “conversations” that always turned into blocking, guilting or blaming” I closed off physically. I got so tired of him forgetting things or denying things that I became dismissive and close to passive aggressive. I became frozen even though this is not who I am…I even remember telling him that this was happening and how destroyed I felt about it.
It is a long term recovery for me and it is hard…..very hard to figure it all out and accept the consequences.
Brenda – there were a lot of red flags when I read your piece. You have a lot of grieving and sorting out to do because of the long term nature and destructiveness of your relationship. Take the time to become your authentic self (read Natalie’s post on this) and don’t get involved with any man right now. You are not ready and they are not ready, considering your situation. It takes a lot of energy to figure all this out – focus on yourself. Also read Natalie’s post about the dangers of the return of childhood sweethearts and old friends. I wish you the best of luck.
Hey Espresso, Oh. My. Fkn. God. Your marriage sounds like a cc of mine! “His emotional immaturity and need to put me in a mother role left me confused, angry, guilty and feeling responsible for everything. The more I overfunctioned, the more he under-functioned. I hated the role I was in.” And all the rest: I reacted in all the ways you described, and by fashioning myself into a nuclear-hardened fortress! I shut down emotionally and physically. I eventually got so beat down by the “learned helplessness” of it all that I retreated into my virtual world and just hunkered down in my cocoon waiting for it to be over like a bad yoga pose…until I finally woke up and reclaimed my power to just end it and break free! However in my case, I was never emotionally available. I am still at the steep end of figuring out what that means for me. I was just as big of a hot mess as he was, but in the opposite direction. In fact, I was nonplussed to finally recognize that our respective pathologies duplicate each other!
And you’re absolutely right that it takes a lot of energy to figure all this out. Small wonder I’ve felt so fatigued and wiped out lately! I don’t think I’ve seen the post about returning childhood sweethearts and old friends. Will look it up and read. Thank you so much and very best to you!! xoxo
There really isn’t such a thing as a one-sided committed relationship. On the rare occasion I do talk to an EUM, it always feels so constraining and closed off. It’s not a good feeling at all.
Baggage Reclaim is the foundation for healthy relationships, I’m on the team, BUT, for me the articles are repeatedly failing to acknowledge the social climate we live in.
“Surely, if we truly wanted to be available and vulnerable, we would engage with people who want to expand and evolve emotionally with us?”
Where is this imaginary stock of people? We live in a culture where flaky is the norm. So at some point, the blame needs to shift away from our “self-defeating patterns” and acknowledge the selection of humans we are actually working with in this present day reality of Earth 2015.
@ExceptOneThing, I totally agree. I think Natalie has probably dealt with this in other posts. I can’t see her not being aware of this. Online dating especially has made it 100% acceptable, if not even preferable, to continue to shop around and not ever stop to even try to really get to know someone. After all, that “perfect” person could be one click away. And the amount of people out there who don’t really want anything other than a text message “relationship.” It’s crazy.
@ExceptOneThing, @Diane, I don’t think it’s just an online issue. I think it’s even a generational issue now or it’s always been prevalent! Long gone are the days of formal dating; now everyone (that I’ve met, anyway, who are still single) “just want to be friends” or “hang out,” and they’re in their early 20s to 30s. I see some level of merit to it; at least you can figure out what you’re getting into before you go out on a bona fide date with the person, but these days it feels as if everyone is just too scared to actually date to get to know the other person.
The only two examples I know of, from people other than on here talking about online dating – both got married, in good healthy relationships, with children.
Are relationships about the method of communication/tool we use/have access to? or HOW we use it once we are fully aware?
Personally I don’t feel internet dating would fulfil my personal needs – that’s why I wouldn’t touch it with a barge-pole currently.
I completely agree and I was just thinking of this yesterday. After a 12 yr relationship which ended Feb 2014 (he got married March 2015…so yeah…) dating is horrible and something that I do not want to even do anymore. Every guy that I have met online is not really what I am looking for at all. But…sometimes I wonder if settling is something I am going to have to do. I am independent, work two jobs, been to college twice, but the guys I meet, especially where I live, are just not “up to my standards.” So do I lower my standards, settle, or just stay single. At 34 it is so hard to find someone who wants what you want, doesn’t have baggage, doesn’t have kids. So it feels like my options are so limited now.
I just recently discovered this blog and BAMM what a slap in the forehead! I recently disengaged from a nearly 7 year relationship with an EU boyfriend. The roller coaster was mentally exhausting and when trying to express myself, my needs and what was and wasn’t working with him it quickly reverted into an all me thing. Feeling unappreciated and availed of is grossly painful but now I understand more about what was going on.
I have much to learn about myself and why I am attracted to EU men, and why I stay. Please keep your blog going and I love all the comments from those working through same issues.
Don’t let people pull you into their storm. Pull them into your peace.
That’s lovely Bobbie Hunt – I will remember that thank you.
Great post and beyond excellent timing. I thought I had my head up lately and things had improved but then over past 3 months I spent a week at different times with 3 couples with all having really good men that truly loved, respected, liked, cared and took care of their spouses as any good human should. I really enjoyed being around that type of energy and it opened my eyes. When he vanished this time it didn’t bother me for my eye is on the goal of finding a quality humanbeing as the three men I spent the time with and witness all the small ways they truly care for the women they love.
I ended a budding dating relationship with someone I was growing deeply fond of about 1.5 months ago. I was recognizing the signs (thank you, Baggage Reclaim) – he has pretty low self esteem and was using me as a therapist. I asked that our relationship be free of that dynamic but there wasn’t much to sustain it once I said that. He was also fresh out of a relationship and jumped into our connection quickly. Then things tapered off as the breakup caught up with him. He denied that I was a recovery aid but of course, people are unlikely to admit they’re doing that. I knew it had to be me to have the “moment of clarity.” I asked him what he wanted this to be and he said, “I don’t know.” We’d known each other 4 months and I knew what I wanted – I wanted him to be my boyfriend and I told him that.
And then, the hard conversation. “I accept you don’t know what you want right now. I feel ready for more. This is hard but I have to face facts. I think I’ll always want to be friends but right now, it’s painful to have you around. I need to process this away from you; I hope you understand.” He said he did and he’s respected that (for the most part).
I think we can be friends at some later date. We didn’t end in flames. It’s been 1.5 months and I’ve been keeping to myself and that’s been good. His birthday is next week and I will wish him HBD on Facebook – in the exact manner I do all our mutual friends.
The thing I’m struggling with right now is, although we didn’t share enough values to be a good fit, we do share a major (and rare) interest. This shared interest is why we met – he’s been at it much longer than I have, more entrenched in the local scene. I am just getting started; my involvement is growing and I’m meeting new people and I love it. This interest will likely have our paths crossing in the future, which is fine – that’s not what I am struggling with. It’s that… in pursuing this interest we once shared, it reminds me of him sometimes and I feel sad from time to time that we don’t do this together now. We met just as I was getting into it so now I am trying to define this interest on my own terms, in my own way – so that it no longer reminds me of him/causes me pain, define my involvement, beyond and apart from this guy I had such high hopes for.
I just thought I’d share that, although common interests alone cannot hold a relationship together (thank you, NML), it does sting when this person who cannot meet my needs is so intertwined with this interest and I am looking forward to making it my own, whatever that looks like. Thanks for a great site and this great community.
Michelle,
First you have to understand that this new interest you have and him are not mutually exclusive. If you have a geniune interest then find other people who share the interest and this may take the stignma of it being associated with him away. Please don’t make the mistake of seeking out relationships based on this interest, especially if it is a rare interest as you say.
Thanks Stephanie. I don’t need my partner to be into this passion – it’s that my enjoyment was so amplified by my pleasure in his company. I continue to love this interest and in distancing from him, I am realizing (and grieve) how much I loved having him to share it with. I know our paths will continue to cross in the scene, I will keep meeting great people to share it with and find my own way. I keep working to separate how I felt about him with how I feel about this interest. I know pursuit of my interest can continue even if my pursuit of him cannot. Thanks for your comment!
Hi, Michelle. I like the fact that you know you want a boyfriend, you thought this guy fit the bill, he dangled the “not sure of what I want” carrot, and you called the game because you know you are searching for the man who is ready to put both feet in. Very terrific on your part. So many women would just “hang” with him waiting for the moment that the scales dropped from his eyes and he grabs them and says “I LOVE YOU!”.
I don’t see why letting go of a half-in man affects you discussing your rare interest with him. Not every day, but when something interesting occurs. Is there a reason you can’t talk with him occasionally about this interest? Is that too painful for some reason? I think it would be nice to be able to share tidbits with someone who is mutually interested. I once had a mean crush for a guy, but something told me he was gay. We’d have two hour phone conversations about our interests, and I was falling for him more and more with every conversation. Then one night, I point blank asked him his orientation, found out he was gay, and I was crushed. Did not talk to him for a few weeks. Then one day, I got over it. I just accepted that he would not ever be my boyfriend. I called, we again had good conversation, and I have his friendship to this day. We don’t talk often, but I am always happy to hear from him. I harbor no resentment or faint hopes, and I would’ve missed out on some seriously happy times if I discarded him because he could never be “the one”.
Thanks Elgie! Good question. I was thinking about this yesterday, actually. I was doing that thing where I felt good, grounded, “over it.” So naturally, I think, oh I can reach out and let him know I’m open to friendship and the pain is over. Everything will be great! lol I wrote the email and saved it. Did not send. Just draft.
I thought about it and asked myself, What do you want him to do? What would you like him to do with this information that you are “ready for friendship”? I realized I secretly hoped he would make plans with me, spend time… even when we were “dating” he left a lot of that to me. But of course, I won’t do that anymore. So why would that be different now? Sure, I have had revelations in these six weeks but that doesn’t mean he has similarly wised up.
So until I can reach out with no expectation or secret hopes, I am better maintaining no contact. I am leaning more toward allowing our paths to cross naturally as a result of our involvement in our shared interest rather than trying to orchestrate that… Because it would either be me hoping he makes the effort (no evidence he would based on history) or it would be me pulling the strings. I’m trying to avoid that idea that all that is holding him back from being my friend is me declaring, ok I am ready! Hit me with everything you’ve been saving up! lol Nope.
I try to remember my healing is really for myself and not so I can “let him off the hook” engage and we can be pals. It’s for me. Friendship with him is a bonus, not the purpose. Thanks for your comment!
I can see in hindsight that over the past few years I have been gradually making the shift to seeing people as they are instead of as how I want them to be.
Someone, I can’t remember who, maybe a therapist, pointed out that when we try to fix the past by trying to change an EU person – to get an EU person to meet our needs – love us, validate us, etc., we are stuck in the bargaining stage of grief. That statement really struck me.
It made sense to me, but I thought I had accepted my parents were never going to give me what I wanted/needed from them. Now I recognize that I have accepted certain things about them/our relationship, but there are things that I hadn’t/haven’t fully accepted.
In working through this stage of grief over the past couple of months, not the grief work of their deaths, the grief work of the loss of love, emotional support, etc., I made a stunning and extremely painful realization about my mother. I sobbed for hours.
What I see now is that before I had the awareness about this thing about my mother, but I hadn’t fully accepted it. What felt like a stunning and painful moment of realization was actually acceptance. I could see it very clearly and feel the full force of emotions behind it.
I experienced a huge shift in my ability to accept others as they were/are after that. It’s wonderful! I feel liberated, like a huge burden has been lifted off me. I wasted so much energy and I was exhausted all of the time and felt defeated.
I no longer waste my time and energy on people who are not interested in a healthy, balanced relationship. Getting lots of practice setting and maintaining healthy boundaries and I see and feel the difference. I am much more confident and assertive.
There’s a man I met recently that in the past would turned my head and had me heading off into fantasy land pretty quickly. I paid attention and noticed in our conversation that it was pretty one sided and that he looks for others to do all of the work in general. I’ve had the feeling that he has been trying to hook me into chasing him. In the past, I would have not have easily accepted that that is who he is, and that likely wasn’t going to change. I’m not ready to date, but I still look! ? And he has a dreamy accent…something about those lovely English accents!
All the better to hook you with Veracity…
In the last two days I’ve watched two movies that gave me a different perspective on what brings us to BR – especially those who are “stuck” in pain. Are many of us just women scorned? (Or men scorned, for those male BR-ers)
You know the saying – ‘Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.’ We cannot accept the fact that someone we wanted does not want us with equal ardor. Or that he does not want ONLY us.
If sex is a commitment contract in a woman’s mind, then we should tell that to the man before the sex. But we rarely do, do we. We just decide he “knows” it meant something special and unique and monogamous. But that is not what it meant in his book.
I watched the Clint Eastwood movie “Beguiled”, and it showed how women will spin a fantasy around a man and assume he is complicit, then get angry when he does an action outside of their fantasy – such as be attracted to and/or sleep with another woman. I liked how it showed that he just let the woman determine the role he would play, based on what he could intuit from their words and actions. Because his goal was to escape from the boarding school where he was being harbored by those women. To me, it is a parable of the EU man – he has a goal that has nothing to do with “mutual relationship”, and he will say or do just enough to abet our fantasy until he sees the perfect time to make a break.
The other movie was the Betty Broderick tele-movie, where Betty shot her ex-husband and his new wife because she could never get out of the “angry” state she was in after he told her he wanted out of their marriage. Betty is classic NPD and just did not allow anyone else’s wishes to override her own. She was going to get her way, no matter what, and in order to ensure her ex-husband did not have a happy life, she killed him and the new wife. If you are stuck on angry, isn’t it partly because you cannot stand that he might be happier without you? Why does that make you so angry? One of Betty’s reasons was “because he OWES me”. But if you are giving yourself to a man, and also running up a tab of what he owes, then the relationship was always unequal and not fulfilling your wants and needs, and the ending should have been called by YOU long ago. At some point, getting him to “pay up” got entwined with your sense of self-worth, and that is the HUGE mistake that keeps us in pain. His acceptance of you is not a function of your personal worth – meaning you should not be thinking “He wants me so I am worthy”. So maybe you are dealing with a U-turner. I’ve never had a man who U’turned on me. I’ve had disinterest thrown my way, for sure. But I never had any man who showed real interest in me for an extended period do a U-turn in 24 hours. I’ve had female “friends” do this, and it did hurt me, but it did not shake my sense of personal value. And his leaving your life should not be shaking the core of your being.
Spot on Elgie!
I have not seen these movies but from your description Elgie R. they sound chauvinistic and make me think of fatal attraction. But I wanted to ask about something that I have seen: I have started rewatching some episodes of Sex and the City and stumbled upon the Movie, the 2nd. Besides it being plain bad, a scene made me think of BR all the way and how lucky it is that there are out there normal authentic sensible people like Natalie and a lot of readers here.
Basically, Big stands up Carrie the wedding day. She has a fit and slaps him with the bouquet and tells him ‘i knew it i knew it that you would do me this. i am humiliated’.
I almost had a heart attack while watching this. My God this is such bad behaviour that it is appalling to me that the film would then promote their going back together and finally marry too. Am I the only one who thinks Big is very close to a sadistic sociopath? Wiser, Elgie, has any of you seen this?
Hope I am taking it too personally and it’s not that bad, but I am still shocked when I think about it. V.
Uhm now that I think about it I don’t think it was in the movie, or not the II. Maybe the I or maybe in the series. Whatever.
I hope I get a grip on myself I can’t believe how bad I feel about this, I have not had that experience specifically, I don’t know what’s going on here.
V,
I relate. And I just laughed at:
“I don’t know what’s going on here.”
I also relate to Grey’s Anatomy quotes:
Dr. Meredith Grey: “Pain comes in all forms. The small twinge, a bit of soreness, the random pain. The normal pains we live with everyday. Then there’s the kind of
pain you can’t ignore. A level of pain so great that it blocks out everything else… Makes the rest of your
world fade away, until all we can think about is how much we hurt. How we manage our pain is up to us.
Pain. We anesthetize , ride it out, embrace it, ignore it, and for some of us the best way to manage pain is
to just push through it.”
And ouchhh..
Dr. Meredith Grey: “Okay, here it is. Your choice, it’s simple, her or me. And I’m sure she’s really great. But Derek, I love you. In a really, big really big pretend to like your taste in music, let you eat the last piece of cheesecake, hold a radio over my head outside your bedroom window, unfortunate way that makes me hate you… love you. So pick me. Choose me. Love me.”
Say Something, I am glad that it made you smile. Sometimes one can find a comical streak even in the midst of something painful, and I must say my sense of humour has saved me several times 🙂
One a more serious note, I suggest that you let go of the “chose me” philosophy. That is dangerous and simply untrue. In the wider sense, you are chosen already. You are a human being, you are alive, you can do marvellous things with your time and life once you feel better. In the more practical sense, if someone endangers your well-being, there comes a moment when you have to *choose you*. It would be wonderful if both of you felt good in the partnership, but if that isn’t the case, you have to choose you and opt out, or in your case understand what the heck happened so that you don’t fall prey to the same con job again. Your ex’s behaviour was appalling no more no less than the Mr. Big I am complaining about – *choose you*. V.
Thanks V,
I never understood what Carrie saw in Mr. Big.
I think the “choose me” is that part deep inside that wanted to be “The One” and I totally realize that life doesn’t work that way. Of course I WANTED him to choose me, and I actually thought
that he HAD. I truly don’t know what happened other than he chose to leave. And once I accept that for good, although I know it to be true, well then maybe I will also be declaring that I choose me. I just am not there yet.
@Say Something. I don’t think that ‘life doesn’t work that way’, I think it’s just difficult to find and create something really good and long-lasting.
If somebody loves you of course they choose you (too). My advice is for the bad times, when there’s a situation, then you have to protect yourself.
And I say this so that you know it, not to rush you. Take your time, you’re doing beautifully. V.
I’m sorry I don’t know why a part of the sentence above was not processed.
“when there’s a situation” = “when there’s a Me *OR* You situation”
Thank you V,
I appreciate your kind words.
Sometimes I feel both grateful and horrified at the same time.
Grateful for the insight, compassion, and intelligence of the women who have interacted with me here, and for stories and thoughts others have shared. I am just blown away by the support from people I don’t even know. So why am I horrified? It’s horrifying to know that I can find more caring and honesty from complete strangers than from a person I thought was the BGE, that I was intimately involved with and trusted with my heart. Bittersweet I guess.
V,
I love your comment. So uplifting. I choose ME. This is why this site is so helpful. There are so many uplifting posts like yours. You know the reality (and it hurts) is that sometimes we will never find out the why. My engagement was broken because when I found out he was cheating I said that is it. He seemed so happy when we were together. I felt LOVED. I thought we both were happy. It shocked the hell out of me that he was out at night creeping around. It hurts but I will NEVER know why he did this.
I am just trying to heal and deal with my fear of not being happy like this again. We did SO MUCH together. I was tickled pink that he would go shoe shopping with me (and he wanted to do it). He helped me pick out the most beautiful dresses. I paid for it all but I loved having him with me. He gave me tips about my hair and even my brows. He gave me more attention than I have ever had. He was connected to me but he decided to connect with someone else while he was engaged to ME. I don’t see how he had the time to connect with someone else but he did. DECEPTIVE. V do you know how this hurts? It ripped my soul apart.
I have to choose ME and move on. God will carry me thru this difficult time like he has with every difficult time I have had in MY LIFE. THIS ONE IS JUST TOUGH.
@Mary Jane: I think I do. I am so very sorry for your pain. It’s so raw I can almost touch it. I am so very sorry. Courage – you have plenty of it. V.
Hello Say Something,
Please take a look at this site. I like some of the things she is saying about betrayal. Let me know what you think.
Hi Mary Jane,
I’m not sure I can get past the combined use of betrayal and gift. Sometimes I wonder how much that’s out there is a great marketing ploy. I will never accept that someone I believed to be the BGE provided me with a gift in the form of betrayal. Let’s see it for the truth: rejection, pain, trauma, deceit. That’s not a gift. It’s harm. .
Yes, we have lessons to learn in order to overcome the pain that someone else has caused. And I believe that others CAN cause us harm. Hard lessons in the form of surviving, recovering, and rebuilding.
Maybe the gift is our own work at reclaiming our lives and our happiness. But betrayal is not a gift. Kicking the emotional shit out of someone isn’t a gift, right? I don’t want to pretend to soften the impact by repackaging betrayal into a positive experience. It’s not. It reminds me of a time when I voiced to someone about how a (male) teammate had treated me disrespectfully and cruelly. Her response to me was “you know what they say. The ones that love you are the ones that abuse you”. Ummm NO.
Why do so many people insist on justifying blatant crappy, abusive treatment as acceptable? It then makes it tough to realize that a few crumbs of goodness and future faking cannot wipe out the devastation caused by lies, betrayal, and the inevitable loss of trust.
Not saying the book may not make valid points, but I’d rather be real. BR is real.
Ok, now I’m going to breathe. That felt really reactionary. Yikes.
Say Something,
For some strong reason I really connect to you and the pain you are dealing with. It is because I feel the same way. When I read your posts I said someone understands my PAIN. I read the lessons outlined in this book and it is a process to be able to accept some of what she is saying.
Some of the brief chapters were too much for me. You have to take things slow to heal. You will heal based on your own timetable. Believe me I was never trying to send the message that betrayal is a GIFT. This S*** hurts bad. It has been worse than family deaths.
Even other peoples laughter is tough for me. I m not at a place where I can laugh. I guess I envy their ability to laugh. I have been hurt and deceived in the worse kind of way. My laughter and happiness have been crushed by lies and deception. Like you I have to wonder what was real if anything. Imagine you walk into a bank every week and deposit the money you worked hard to earn. When you go into make a withdrawal from the banker who has smiled at you every week you find out you have a zero balance. You have nothing to withdraw.
Say Something he smiled in my face and was with me all the time. How could he do this to me? He tipped around in the dark seeing someone else. He could have said this is not working. He disrespected me!
It robs of you of sleep, your peace of mind, your ability to trust and like you said of your ability to believe in your future.
I am pulling for YOU. I want to RECOVER and I wish the same for YOU. I really do. Believe me I understand your PAIN.
Mary Jane,
Just reading the chapter outlines, I zeroed in on chapter 3 about sociopaths. Yes, how does one smile in your face and not miss a beat playing the BGE role? Friends didn’t understand when I said it was the ultimate pain, worse than family member’s deaths, worse than going through my divorce. It’s the pain of deceit and intimate betrayal. If something is wrong why didn’t they just SAY SOMETHING??? it was ok to say all the things to encourage us, to hook us, to maintain a relationship and create a future with us. Words were easy. Smiles and laughter flowed effortlessly. Passion, compassion, emotional and physical intimacy naturally felt right. Betrayal does not.
Say Something,
I wish he had said something to ME. ANYTHING. There is no closure. I have to find it on my own. How cruel is this? You have pin pointed my EXACT feelings. Like you I have suffered major loses before. My dear mother has passed away. I thought I would die. My mother’s death was TOUGH but this deception is far worse. But this has BROKEN me! He was in my house smiling in my face (ENGAGED) and involved with another woman. It kills me that I will NEVER know how long he was doing this BEHIND my back.
I am SO sorry you are going through this. But you are as close to closure as I m gonna get. You have validated what I am dealing with daily. No one else is getting this. I no longer bother them with it. I am sucking it up and dealing with it ALONE. I am using the internet and books. I am trying to find my way to RECOVERY. My spirit is broken. Of course my walks help. But like you I have walked and cried. Nothing brings me real JOY anymore. NOTHING.
Your posts have given me the strength to say I REFUSE TO ALLOW ONE *** to ruin my life. Your posts having giving me a glimmer of LIGHT. I just have to find a way to work thru this. You and I know it is not easy. This PAIN is real. Some mornings I start and end my day in tears.
The DISRESPECT that I was shown hurts. I am more hurt than anything. I don’t understand it. I ruminate and analyze.
He didn’t say anything because he never expected to get caught. He was planning to marry me and this dirt would have just continued. But I found out and his jig was up. So, he was pissed that I found out and he simply decided to HURT me more by saying NOTHING. He knew it would rip my heart apart.
This man knew how much I loved him. say Something this HAS to get better for us. Thank you for sharing your story and being so open. It is helping me. I get you 100%.
I look around at women who are in the public eye who have had to deal with hurt and deception. They look like they are moving on. I have to do the same. No matter what I DO. I will NEVER forget this. It is one of those pivotal moments in life you don’t forget.
How do you back stab a woman you profess to love? SAY SOMETHING FOR GODS SAKE.
Yes Mary Jane,
Their actions were cruel. I met with my therapist last night and told her how your question (do I wish I’d never met him) really upset me. I still don’t know my answer because (maybe) I haven’t come to terms with who he really is. And I cried and told her how it’s still torturing me not to know why he disappeared. I continue to insist that there was something about me that he didn’t like. And not that I could change it, or fix it, but WTF there had to be some DEALBREAKER for him. She told me that just because I believe something, doesn’t make it true. Then what possibly could it be? All she could suggest was that has issues and isn’t good at communicating. But I know he was able to orchestrate the relationship so that it suited him.
In one of my desperate attempts to make sure he was clear of my feelings he replied:
Gosh, Say Something
I don’t know what to say
I still think you’re the bomb
But we need to move on
Gosh? The bomb? Really?
And since like you, there was no withdrawal of affection, no conversation, no fight, just a blindside…
Here’s part of my final manifestivus, my last communication with him ever:
Feeling like I’m the enemy. An obstacle. An intruder. I’m not. Wanting to turn my car around and go back. But back to what? Back a couple days? Or a week? Two weeks? Three weeks? Or a month? Longer? Before we ever met? Because what just happened? What happened? I don’t get it… What happened to the attentive, caring, affectionate, thoughtful guy I knew… ?
Did he know before he ever met me? Was anything real? I started reading about sociopaths, about hypnotic trances and NLP (neuro linguistic programming), mind control, October Man, pick up artists… I watched videos. I’m not kidding. And I still don’t know who he is or what REALLY happened.
How do you backstab your partner? With a smile and a kiss goodbye. No explanation needed.
Say Something,
I was sitting here tonight thinking. You said Mr. BGE told you it was time for you to both move on. My x never said a word and we were engaged. We both got blindsided but I wish he had said something to me. He could have said I m moving on and we want be together. I think he was going for a tsunami effect. He wanted it to hit me HARD. He made a lame attempt to lie by sending a text that said he was at a hotel close to home which was a lie. He was two hours away.
This is how I end up thinking some evenings. This has to get better.
Hi Say Something,
Thanks for providing me with these links. I downloaded the book from the Masks blog. I want to scan that. I need to focus on healing. He is with the his new hotel love.
Like you I am wondering if I will ever find that ONE GUY. It would be so nice. Like you I am lonely. It is time to find a new love.
I don’t want to use online dating sites. They seem creepy. I think I am going to start going to social events each week.
How are you holding up? We just have to keep moving forward.
Say Something,
I couldn’t respond under your last message. They both gave us these deadly good bye kisses. That day he kissed me he knew what he had planned. He had a hotel room reserved almost two hours away. He lied to me about where he was going. He knew. I cant allow this to destroy me. It Just HURTS SO BAD.
I am reading and trying to HEAL. How do we get past this? I have been reading about CBT. I am trying to set goals and give myself weekly homework to heal.
These two men are dancing and screwing their brains out. They spent weekends with us and now someone else is spending the weekend with them. We need JOY in our lives again. I have analyzed this. I have spent time in solitude (alone reading, writing, documenting my lessons learned, crying and just sitting by the lake). I think it is time to find some decent company. Think of a creative project that occupies my time. Time now to find work that I am passionate about. I want let ***hole destroy me. One small step at a time. Let’s take back our lives. In the scheme of things most people would NOT allow either of these men to occupy SO much space. Both of them have dark souls.
We have to think about what is next for us? Believe me I KNOW it is easier said than done. I HATE waking up so SAD in the morning before I even get out of BED. Oh I hate this.
How did I get up daily after my Mother died? I did it cause I am still here. I am so sad to say it just didn’t hurt like this. I was crushed but not like this. Frankly, you understand this. Do you think I could say this to my siblings? NO WAY.
You and I need a new focus. Do you now believe that BGE (aka *** wipe) was seeing another woman? Mine was seeing someone and when I found out he just jumped ship and got in her bed. He had nothing else to say to me.
What if an old girlfriend came back into his life? Something happened because like YOU I know I am da BOMB. I have a lot of positive things going for me.
The saddest part of all of this. It has made me question if GOD is even around looking out for me. It is the PAIN talking. I am out here pulling for YOU. I want you to have peace. I want it too.
Yes, we need a positive focus. He was living with someone for 5+ years before we met. Story is that she was depressed and would routinely throw him out. She covered his mouth to stop him from breathing if he was snoring, got upset if he got up too early, forced him to watch movies he didn’t like, accused him if things. Victim.victim.victim. He would have said if they got back together. Instead during break in NC it was “I thought about contacting you, but it wouldn’t really be fair to the girl I’m seeing now”.
Additionally he wrote this mind-f’ery to me: “My life with you this winter was great. But that’s not the REAL me.” Yes, he wrote that, followed by “I don’t even drink. I don’t eat in restaurants. I haven’t watched 20 minutes of tv. I barely sit down. I know that will always seem unfair to you.”. WHAT??? The first time I met him, he had bags of empties to return. Plus we always had a few beers together on the weekend. When he met my friends, we went out for craft beers together. He also told me how he’d never used his new kitchen appliances. There was never much food at his house, so we HAD to go out. Almost always to a little town bar near him. Real small town. They knew him by name there. So at night we watched movies at his house. There wasn’t much to do besides that. And I was OK because spending time with him was all I needed. But three months after rejecting and replacing me, he’s this transformed person? His declarations were condescending, like now that you’re gone, I’ve made these positive changes. Being with you was dragging me down. That’s how it made me feel. And WTF did that even mean???
I think the pain is so deep because the betrayal was on purpose, directed at us. It wasn’t something that just unfortunately happened. So how to recover? I wrote for a bit about UNWANTING him. I have never contacted him again. I started seeing a psychologist. I research and read. And cry. I go to work. I still participate in my activities. But I’m not happy and I want to be. So like you, I’m seeking understanding and support. I know we’re doing alot of “focus on them” stuff, but for me that’s what I need to do.
A hotel two hours away? Maybe she was married. Either way, not ok.
This site has multiple other links if you open it desktop style: http://masksofsanity.blogspot.com/2009/02/what-power-lies-in-words-nlp-psychopath.html
And again, not saying either one is a sociopath, but if people have sociopathic traits (which also makes them EU) harm will occur. Oh wait… It DID.
Say Something,
The things that he wrote you seem like they were done just to mess with your head because he knows you want to be with him. It just sounds like crazy talk. Who forces someone else to drink? Sounds like he is just a FAKE. You said you treated him nice. So, he had every opportunity to be himself. You drove a distance to see him.
I think my x drove that far away to hide his dirt from me. Your x at least tried to tell you something. My x said nothing. He would not give me the satisfaction of closure. I think he suffers for NPD. He may be a sociopath. Anyone who inflicts this much pain has major issues. Do you find all of this to be emotionally draining?
I don’t like he said now that you are gone he has transformed himself. He is a jerk. I will never call my x. He would probably say some of the same crap. Maybe he would say he never loved me. Why did he propose? I will just never have answers and the comfort that I want.
I am lonely. I need to move on to heal. I have done enough soul searching. How do we cut these cords and open the next chapter of our lives? If there were a pill I could mail you to erase the hurt I would send it next day to YOU. Smile. I would also take one. Hitting reset after dealing with people who have dark souls is just not that easy.
Lets find PEACE>
Hi MJ,
In his email he didn’t use the word transform, but that was my interpretation based on all his declarations. During TLW, he blurted out, when I was pressing for understanding:
“I feel like I’m living a lifestyle that isn’t mine.”
Was he comparing me to his former gf? IDK. I have no clue what he meant. We were not doing odd, random, bizzaro things. We were usually at HIS house, in HIS town. IDK. Was je a complete, fake person? Who does that?
Anything he DID say at the end made no sense. So I didn’t get any understanding. Just confusion, pain, and disappointment.
Weirdly, he once said he should drink more. That entire I don’t even drink or eat in restaurants thing made NO SENSE. He wasn’t an alcoholic and NEVER spoke of making any life changes except trying to work less. Instead (email)he let me know he’d absorbed more resonsibility. Never asked ANYTHING about me. Ended up calling me offensively harsh for questioning how he could just reject and replace me. Told me I was critical and chastising of him. And THEN I APOLOGIZED and tried again to explain that I was just deeply hurt.
Yes, I am emotionally drained. Let me know if you come across that magic pill. I believe that I now can relate to the pain of an addict. Last year, if I was guaranteed to feel better, I would have done almost anything. I’d never thought like that before in my life. I didn’t even know what I liked or who I was. I felt below zero. That’s not who I am. And it stil scares me to think that I let him damage me like that. I couldn’t reason my way to feeling better. I couldn’t fake it. I couldn’t forget it. Or minimize it. Or ignore it. I guess for me, that was rock bottom. One guy. And everything I believed about him and us was nothing as it seemed. At all. “sorry”
Hi, V. I see your point about Mr. Big, and I think that was in the first movie. I don’t really remember how the movie ended, did they get married..?….I’ll have to watch it again. For me, SATC was about the clothes and BFFs.
Betty Broderick is a true story – it was a really big deal because it divided America into two camps – those who felt her husband did her wrong and those who thought she drove her husband away. The Brodericks had a very messy divorce. Pre-divorce, Betty Broderick did some very vindictive things to get back at her husband – including driving her car into his home.
I highly recommend seeing Clint Eastwood’s “The Beguiled”. I think it is a textbook example of how women fool themselves.
Men typically are conflict-avoidant in relationships, so when a woman complains that the man should “just say” that he wants out, I know a woman is fooling herself. The man IS saying it, he is just not saying it with words. He says it by “going along with the program” but not really putting both feet in. He accepts your offers but rarely initiates anything. He “shows up” at the thing you planned, but has to be coaxed into participating. Can’t you see he is screaming that he is just in it for the time being? But alas, no, the woman counts all these little things as him being invested. She’s using the clock and the calendar as earmarks of his investment. She’s ignoring his emotional detachment. If she would just stop arranging plans with him, let the ball stay in his court for a while, she would then gain real evidence of his level of interest. Does he call to do things or just for booty? Does he plan or is it last minute? Does he follow-up with new plans quickly, or can he go for long periods without seeing you? Those things are very telling.
@Elgie R.
Agreed. That is passive-aggressive boycotting, it’s essential to recognise it as soon as it starts to pan out and get out of the relationship. Really.
Thanks for the movies’ suggestion and explanations. I think I have seen something similar to the true story you cite, a Mrs. Harris film about the murder of a Dr. Tarnower by his long-time lover of the same name. V.
V.
“I hope I get a grip on myself I can’t believe how bad I feel about this, I have not had that experience specifically, I don’t know what’s going on here.”
?? Does it remind you of someone you know’s relationship? Parents, siblings, etc.?
I’m sure you know this already, but in case someone else isn’t aware of this phenomenon, whenever we have a strong reaction (that feels like an overreaction) to something it’s usually because it reminds us of someone/something from the past that we have unfinished business with. The old feelings come up and start piling on and that’s where the overreaction come from. Veracity
Exactly so Veracity. I think you might have read and enjoyed ‘The drama of the gifted child’ by Alice Miller? 🙂
What was going on was that I had a mild panic attack and realised that it could have been me. My ex-fiance’ didn’t stand me up on the wedding day because we managed to break up before, as simple as that. It could have been me, that’s how bad it was our relationship at that point. … 🙁
Thanks for your excellent suggestion. V.
“I think you might have read and enjoyed ‘The drama of the gifted child’ by Alice Miller? :)”
Yes, I have! 🙂
Oh wow. Had to have been difficult to think about/feel. Panic attacks are very scary. That makes sense – your making that correlation in your mind. It never ceases to amaze how much is stored away in our subconscious! I’m sorry to hear that is was that bad at that point, but happy that you have moved on!
You’re most welcome! Veracity
V.
My perception of Mr. Big in the movie (and the entire movie itself) has changed so much in the last several months. I used to think he was this mysterious guy, who loved Carrie but didn’t know what he wanted, wanted his freedom etc. Now I see him as a selfish, self-centered assclown.
As a matter of fact, I can’t watch that movie anymore. Any of it. I can’t believe how much focus these women put on men and sex. But I guess the focus of the movie is such.
Sofia I agree. The rewatching project was part of a let-me-see-how-I-was-before thing I’m doing. I was surprised to realise that a) I didn’t remember almost anything of that series b) I didn’t find it funny or even interesting. So I can’t see it either now. Also, this happens a lot lately when I go to the movies with friends and they enjoy themselves and all I can think is What a shallow film. Oh well… I think it is like that when one is in a transition moment in one’s life. V.
big also controls her desire for having children and therefore her complete way of life, neat, ordered, designer, eating out regularly lifestyle, her focus always on him and makes it his pre-marriage demand in order for them to get married – I am not sure what ‘sex in the city’, peddle’s exactly? and haven’t watched it in a long while but I have a feeling you’d be better off watching a comedy V?
yes yes Oona it is exactly as you say; I think that must be the worst love story example I have ever ever seen. I was just curious to see how it was with my sort of new eyes (I never liked him that much anyway). Thanks for your reply, V.
Elgie, I like how your mind connects and looks for answers 🙂 Your comments are always very interesting for me to read.
My real life experience has been the total opposite: he chased me, badgered me into accepting it was “a relationship” (he argued with me “BUT OF COURSE WE’RE IN A RELATIONSHIP! WHY CAN’T YOU SEE IT??”) etc etc and the MOMENT I reciprocated, the moment I let myself be myself and treated himself and this as a relationship – and thus had expectations of this to be a relationship and him to commit to this being a relationship – he started withdrawing. But not just withdrawing. He started with super confusing messages. Seasoned with “I am so confused. Why do you have to attack me now. Let’s just be. Let me be”. And then when I would disengage, disappear, or show even a slight interest in someone else – he’d jump right back in, push my buttons, tell me how beautiful I was, how he misses his girl and so on.
And I did ask him – do you want a mistress? do you want to be an an open relationship? what do you want?
And he always, goddamn ALWAYS, got on his high horse and give me his speech of how he always wanted a family, and a wife, and kids and he never would have a mistress and he was not a cheater and he never believed in open relationships. I was so desperate for his love, so of course I ran with one part of that confusing message – the one that I liked more. This is my responsibility. And this one is on me. Here’s where I am fully culpable.
In my case he did not make a U-turn per se. He just started introducing very conflicting info, and when I asked him directly (see above, i.e. open relationship) – he’d avoid answering or shame me for even having to utter a “mistress” and his name in the same sentence.
I don’t have any explanation for this kind of behavior. And quite honestly, I no longer care if there’s any. I am so sick of hearing him painting himself as a victim of selfish and needy me. One day it was him complaining that I wanted too much. The other day it was that I was giving too much and he wanted someone independent. Either way – it was never me who was good. Sure I was a beauty and he liked to parade me. Bleh bleh bleh.
So I have no problem with people wanting open relationships or even mistresses or whatever. IF THEY ARE OPEN ABOUT THIS INFORMATION. Both with their partners/spouses and other people they introduce into this mess.
If an exEUM was open and told me “I just want to jerk you around. And when you finally succumb and fall in love, I am gonna get scared, never tell you I did, because I hope you’d guess, and when you ask me what is going on, I’d just stare at you, and then start hitting on our colleague 10 years my junior” then I’d have said – just go eff yourself, mister. Even if he said just one of those things – I would have told him to back off. But he did not say them. He kept on going about families etc. Meanwhile I imagine he stills feeds the same conflicting crap to his gf who’s running out of time to have children and he knows he is wasting her time. But he just cannot be upfront no matter what’s at stake.
Why,
The mental games these men play are criminal. What you have said about honesty is priceless. The sad truth is these liars and cheaters will never tell you their true intentions. They are emotional scam artists. I now understand them better by reading posts like yours and going thru a painful lost.
I can tell you this it want happen again. When I see BS I will back away. My eyes are wide open. Thanks for sharing this. I am so sorry you had to endure this. This is emotional torture and he is a LIAR.
Thank God you aren’t the gf with so much at stake. Where are the men who don’t want to play these games?
Thank you for your kind words, Mary Jane.
Natalie has managed to create a very special place here. We’re all lucky to have NML’s wisdom and each other to learn from and support.
A few months ago I met a man and the reason why my friend put us together was that she thought we were both smart, kind and fun to be around. It is a good base to start. The first thing I noticed when I talked to him first and met him in person, was how comfortable I felt with myself and how comfortable he made me feel. I guess the two go together. None of the usual discomfort to the point of stress as I did not feel like being on a job interview applying for relationship. It was so refreshing. We did have what you call “chemistry” too.
I am sharing this, as I want to point out that it is possible to have boundaries, voice your needs, be authentic and the man responds “normally” to that as opposed to going mute or disappearing. I have had my unfortunate experiences with EUM/Assclown prior.
While the described connection is still in the unfolding phase, I am strangely calm and go about my life and I am not questioning myself as HE makes effort of being in contact and getting to know me ( and so am I). Even though he works a lot, I have not felt that I haven’t gotten the attention I want at this stage in this connection. We have a few challenges that might restrict us from ever building the relationship that is right for me but at this point,I want to get to know him. So does he and before I decide I want a relationship with him, I want to know that he is the right guy for ME. So (probably for the first time in my life) I am patient with myself, I am not pushing anything and waiting for things and us to unfold and surprisingly it feels good and instead of getting annoyed that it is moving slowly, it gives me hope! Hope that there are smart, kind and fun guys out there that are interested and interesting and want to evolve! I believe they are rare as I have been single for 6 years and tried all kinds of approaches including online…BUT they are out there just like us!
For me I have found that it is really important to wait for reciprocation in every aspect!! I believe that healthy people take a rather passing interest in people they meet and when the interest is reciprocated it can be a start to something deeper and that goes for all types of relationship, romantic or otherwise. I also think that I have made good choices in my female friends and that I am finally applying the same principles in romantic relationships. Again, all of that feels good and empowering. I am lucky that I have met someone who is open, interested and authentic and in truth that has nothing to do with me as that is the way I met him. So if this doesn’t work out, it probably has very little to do with me either. Then we were not the right fit for each other. Only time will tell.
@Unfolding, please keep us updated on how it goes. I’d love to know because it’s been about 4 years for me, and I’m definitely losing faith that even at my relatively young age I will ever been in a relationship again. I’m prepared if that happens and will enjoy my life nonetheless — in some ways I will enjoy it more (I get to do exactly what I want, when I want!), but there are many days where I’m still sort of in disbelief that the man market is this appalling. In the 4 years I’ve been dating, I did meet approximately 3 men who were nice, consistent, and interested, unfortunately I didn’t feel the slightest bit of “chemistry” with them, though in each case I gave it 3-4 dates hoping it would develop. So if you’ve found someone you feel attracted to plus you are calm, cool, collected, and he is making effort, that is quite something and I’m cheering for you — tho of course we don’t want to get ahead of ourselves, haha 😉
Thanks Diane, so sweet of you, cheering for me!
I will definitely keep posting about the development. We will see about possible skeletons or possible shady stuff in the bedroom which I don’t know about yet…
but again all just revelation (as opposed to looking at it as disappointments) that will help me decide along the line.
I can really relate as I was also getting a bit frustrated since online dating (did it for a little over a year) is a lot of work and then there was just no “real” match for me even though I got to know a few men (most of them EU, even in a nice way, but as we know that doesn’t work either) a bit more but it never even moved anywhere close to a relationship attempt.
One thing: Start doing NOW what you want to do and when nevertheless. You don’t have to keep room for the possibility of a man; when you meet him will, both of you will make room for that: Start to build the best life you can with the means you have available, it keeps me grounded and my life feels meaningful and it keeps me sane on those days where I also wonder if I will ever be in a committed relationship again?!
Practice healthy self love, every day as it IS the relationship that counts first and foremost (had to learn that too as people pleaser) I picked up a new hobby 1.5 years ago and while I did not meet anybody doing that, I became much more content with my life and felt very empowered as its an “adventurous” hobby outdoors. Having chemistry is so intuitive and there really is not much to do when you don’t feel it. Been there as well.
Good luck to you and “may the force be with you” 🙂
Unfolding,
Good for you! Just take your time and continue to live your life. Whatever your hobby is continue with it whether the gentleman is interested or not. As long as he has the core values that you are looking for that’s all that matters. Be careful and don’t let past insecurities from dealing with EUM affect your dealings with him. Be on guard, but have fun!
Thank you Stephanie,
oh yes, I will continue with my hobby! It gives me a lot of pleasure and I even became an instructor, so I am in- big time 🙂 I have felt those insecurities creeping up on me, when I noticed the slight “urge” to overgive on my part to push further along, but thanks to BR and a lot of internal work I need to feel reciprocation to move further. I also always felt that having fun and “winning” the guy was based on sex and I have learned it is very short lived! The experience with the recent guy is so different because it and he keeps touching my heart in the most basic way (not ego way) more than anything.
Its like watching a seed open… 🙂
What a refreshing read! Thanks for taking the time to share this. V.
Hi V.
I think it would be nice if people shared their process also when it seems they have met a “Normal” man. We need that perspective too 🙂
Sure :). And thanks for answering too! V.
+1! Reading about so many nightmares here with the current dating scene and especially dire prospects for women my age was one thing that deterred me from divorcing my abusive husband. Thank you so much for sharing your (positive) story, Unfolding!
Hi Brenda,
it really doesn’t matter what the current dating scene looks like or the dire prospects for women of a certain age, being with an abuser is destructive and damaging and this is internal ( that you can be 100 percent sure about!!) whereas the dating scene can change and prospects too, it is not static! Studies show that in the US woman’s quality of life always takes a dip after divorce for about 2 years. I was scared s***less to divorce my EX EU husband who turned into Assclown/emotionally abusive.
Deep down, I sensed there was a better life alone! and I am an eternal optimist so I divorced, probably could not sleep well for a year because of all the anxiety about the future, but at least I knew why I had trouble finding peace and it got better. It got really good and I am happy with the life I have build. Would I like to share it with a man? Yes, most definitely and I miss that a great deal but only in the context of love, care, trust and respect. If it is not present- I do not care no matter what great job you have or how important you are otherwise! It is a learning process this whole loving yourself but please please do not stay with an abuser…it is so damaging and destructive.
Hugs
I was such a people pleaser that I also changed myself to suit others. Since coming to BR I have better friends and I am more honest to myself and others, and even if I want a relationship I don’t sell myself short. Even if they look good on paper if they don´t share my values they don’t pass even to the second round.
This may seem harsh sometimes but I already recovered from a very difficult break up and I’m not letting any guy to change me anymore, is just not worth it. This of course lets me with a very short list of available partners (so far in zero…) but I rather be happy alone than miserable with an EUM… Thank you Nathalie for the wisdom!!!
So, next week I’m working away at the office where exMOM is based. Today he invited me to “have dinner and share my progress” while I’m there. I have declined. I feel a bit churned up inside, but also feel how I’ve done the right thing by me. He has some hide to do this only four weeks after being such an asshole again. It shows how shallow he is to have forgotten all that now. Well I haven’t forgotten!
good for you Colly! Declining that invite is really important, its a big step into realizing that you have choices in this relationship.
Should add as well…in the past I would have felt a compulsion to kick up a drama about why I couldn’t see him and to rise a response (validation)from him. The urge is there still, but I’ve stopped myself and won’t go down that path. Why should I explain myself, right?
Well, the desire to explain one’s self to him is a desire to prolong contact and a reluctance to change ourselves. I understand this, I do. It’s also this hope that after your explanation why you would not go have dinner with him, he’s gonna slap himself on the forehead and go “My gosh, Colly! Now that you’ve put it so eloquently I realized what an asshole I’ve been to you and how I’ve destroyed the trust between us. I am gonna change starting today! I am dropping everything to be with you. No more waiting!” and then actually go and DO THAT.
Which you know what? Which.never.ever.frigging.happened.
To anyone.
So I understand the desire. I see it as a weakness in myself. But I also somehow learnt (it’s a process obviously, I am nowhere perfect) to catch this feeling, acknowledge it and let go). I think it was Suki who mentioned trying to imagine what your future to be like. Not just partner wise, but other aspects as well. And then the contrast is so staggering. Do you see this man, as he is NOW (and probably will forever be), in your future? Overcoming this addiction and weakness, for me, is what largely held me back from moving towards a future I want for myself. There’s no place for a wishy washy guy with a gf/wife and a pile of excuse in that future. He’s out.
I am really liking what you’re writing, Colly. Stay strong.
@Why,
“Well, the desire to explain one’s self to him is a desire to prolong contact…’Now that you’ve put it so eloquently I realized what an asshole I’ve been to you and how I’ve destroyed the trust between us. I am gonna change starting today! I am dropping everything to be with you. No more waiting!’ and then actually go and DO
THAT.
Which you know what? Which.never.ever.frigging.happened.
To anyone.”
BAM!
But yet we go for that eleventh hour, Hail Mary, this time he’ll understand me, last chance, please be a real man final contact. Hope and pain. And still, they walk.
Haha Why I really like it when you type out eums’ possible thoughts. It really makes me laugh! They are so ridiculous that they seem made up for fun, but they are not! That is really how my ex talked (when he bothered to talk to me about relationship issues), and how he thought (from what I inferred by putting together various pieces of the puzzle over a span of years).
And Colly you’re doing so great you’ll have to make a special occasion for yourself, by treating yourself to a nice dinner and some good wine or so, and congratulate yourself for the progress! Cheers, V.
Thanks to all for your support. Yes, I’m pleased I’ve said no – and realise saying no is actually a landmark in itself for me!
I did wake this morning with the itch of wanting to tell him all about himself, ask him why he might think its OK to ask me for dinner, ask what he is trying to prove etc etc. I also feel the urge to tell hm why I declined…but there is no value in it for me so I won’t.
I know him, I know why he wanted to see me…he’ll be wanting to prove to himself and me what good progress he’s made and is able to have dinner with me without getting tangled in anything romantic. Hah, like I’d let him near me anyway? No no no no.
These guys have such a short memory. Why doesn’t he remember what an asshole he was four weeks ago? Well, maybe because me and others never held him accountable before. Well I am now.
Good progress made, but its tough going.
Very proud of you Colly. Yes, it is difficult, but it is really not worth it. You’ve circuled back through this routine a few times and nothing is going to change. Nice work on breaking your pattern. He’s probably scratching his head wondering how you are able to move on from him. Good! He deserves it. Take care and good luck with the week.
I have wasted so much time in these types of relationships. My father was never present so the thrill of going after EU men was always alluring to me. He was also manipulative and a womanizer. While I could recognize the more harmful signs of an EU man, I didn’t recognize the more subtle but just as harmful clues and signs. The men who “seemed” ready but still showed signs of unavailability thru being “busy” all of the time, emotionally distant, passive aggressive, sarcastic and even long-distance. They were even physically unavailable. It’s quite eye-opening but so empowering!
@Lola,
And society and changes in society’s expectations for men and women have to play a role in this. We would not put up with this behavior in our female friends or our male friends or colleagues. But it seems that we have been made to feel that we have to chase men, and men think that we are trying to ‘trap’ them.
So the guy that is EU will start spouting what he thinks you want to hear (family, babies, relationships etc.). I have had now twice been told about families and babies by men that were very EU, and we werent in a relationship, and they ended up treating me quite badly – and if I had said something about babies, I would be labeled needy, crazy, babies on the brain whatever.
With one of these guys I was really annoyed at it and I told him – we both had talked about how EU he was and so i was like imagine me saying this to you, and since you can’t even commit to a dinner date its a bit silly to say that you’d like to have babies with me [it was something like ‘you’re the first woman i’ve thought of having babies with’ – like i’m supposed to be thankful for this?!].
The other guy I took his talk about marriage to indicate emotional availability or maybe good timing. But since it wasn’t really abut me, just marriage in general, like he’s so ready, I mostly ignored it. I think he was both signaling to me that he was available (to see if he could hook me) but also I think he was having a crisis of faith himself and wanted to present himself as really a good guy, a mature guy wanting a family etc (he talked about his married friends, his pregnant friends, the ones with babies etc). He was a bit obsessed.
So its a strange world where men can say they want families and babies either in the abstract or wrt your uterus, and not even mean it, but women cannot say this for fear of being labeled commitment vampires.
Suki, I admire your thoughtful and sane approach. A lot to learn for me here. Especially this “since you can’t even commit to a dinner date its a bit silly to say that you’d like to have babies with me”. SO TRUE.
Thanks @Why! It doesnt always feel sane, sometimes it just feels frustrated … oh well!
Oh I wish I would have found this site long ago! I fell so hard into this trap and adjusted myself for what was a breadcrumb relationship, making excuses for her all the time, holding on for well over a year, managing to recognize it, stop procrastinating, and break up, but then falling again into the same trap within 3 months by taking her back (some women just have their way with men lol) only to see the same thing happen within two months! I genuinely don’t believe it was malicious on her part to manipulate, just someone who was emotionally unavailable from the start, and I fuelled it further instead by accepting it, over compensating and more! Thank you for this wonderful article and many others! (By the way I haven’t read everything on this page, but saw on recent comments by V and Unfolding about the perspective sought by someone with a “normal” man. “Normal” man is now available for a case study! LOL! Be well all!
Hi,
Thank you so much for this post and for all the wisdom!
Here’s my question:
The saying goes that what you put out is what you attract. No?
I am emotionally available and have done considerable work to get so.
But where does one find an emotionally available partner? One who I like as much as he likes me?
I don’t want to have a scarcity mentality, but an emotionally available man who I like as much as he likes me seems like the most rare human on earth. Why else would this site exist? Why else would there be tons of books & articles on this subject? (I know it goes both ways & women can be emotionally unavailable as well.) It seems that after a certain age, meeting someone who is available & not desperate is rare. I don’t have any problem walking away from someone once I know they’re unavailable. I don’t have a problem with being by myself until I meet someone. But I would like to meet someone who is emotionally available.
How does that happen?
That would be the most useful, meaningful content available — more than any other post.
Love,
Sarah
PS — Shout out to ExceptOneThing’s post.
That’s what I’m talking about!
ExceptOneThing says:
April 16, 2015 at 10:22 pm
Baggage Reclaim is the foundation for healthy relationships, I’m on the team, BUT, for me the articles are repeatedly failing to acknowledge the social climate we live in.
“Surely, if we truly wanted to be available and vulnerable, we would engage with people who want to expand and evolve emotionally with us?”
Where is this imaginary stock of people? We live in a culture where flaky is the norm. So at some point, the blame needs to shift away from our “self-defeating patterns” and acknowledge the selection of humans we are actually working with in this present day reality of Earth 2015.
Here’s the problem Sarah, women nowadays put out sexual availability, so that is what first and foremost they are attracting, men who want casual access for sexual intercourse. Most men are delighted in this availability selection from married men to players. Men who are emotionally available are not looking for the sexiest, beautiful, sleep- with -me- early- on woman, they are looking for a friend first they can talk to. These men are not the best looking, highest paid, most successful big shot on the planet. They are the nice guys. Go to a ballroom dance club, the hiking club, the “I just want to do things with other like minded souls club”. You’ll find a good guy.
I have to disagree. Firstly, I don’t believe that withholding sex would somehow CHANGE a EU person into a committed person. It would not.
I would also like to warn anyone thinking that “not the best looking, highest paid, most successful big shot on the planet” are the “nice guys”. Actually, my therapist told me that complicated, successful or even arty types of men have problems yes. And so-called “simple guys” also have problems. The only difference is these problems are different. Emotional maturity is emotional maturity. I know plenty of very very well paid and known professionals who married young and are still happy with their wives and kids. I also know that I had a bf who was “simple” and who hated me for having a career (about which he knew right when we met) and punished me for his own fears of me being somehow more visible or successful. It did not take long for him to decide that he could also incorporate physical abuse as well. From the outside, he was what you call not the biggest shot. And he knew it and resented it. But not enough to actually do sth about it, but enough to punish me for being more than that.
Thinking that if a fella is plain looking, make average or below average money is a good guy is very dangerous. I personally exclude these as factors for myself. In my experience they mean nothing.
I also disagree with simple pleasures. While I want to get to know someone, withholding physical affection can be very damaging. And if a woman wants to be physical, why use that as a kind of reward to her partner for being “good”? This kind of reward system seems like very dangerous ground for building a solid, loving, mutual relationship. What if I am a sexy, beautiful, affectionate woman? What if even the man who wants someone to talk with doesn’t want commitment?
And I agree with Why. I also want to be with someone I’m attracted to physically, whether they are stereotypically handsome or not. And current status isn’t a factor either. It’s the person I like.
Regardless of where I meet someone, I have yet to find someone who hasn’t been hurt on a deep level. Finding someone who has transformed their pain and become available seems extremely difficult to find.
Perhaps you should divert them all to BR and we can heal the world?
Sarah your focus is all on them in your writing and nothing on yourself – apart from your defensive reaction reguarding sex – as if reasons for not having it is because you would be unsexy, unattractive and unaffectionate????
My alarm bells are ringing – ‘While I want to get to know someone, withholding physical affections can be very damaging’ – personally I found NOT withholding physical affection until I well and truely KNOW people inside and out, tried and tested to my new satisfaction levels and KNOW how I feel about them/ feel around them – i found that experience to be nearly fatal. Believe me when I say – anyone who runs in the opposite direction at you ‘withholding physical affections’ is not worth a hair on your head or the salt in your sweat. You may not believe it but its true and if you don’t believe it – that is right there a reason you may be acting as a magnet for assclowns.
My experience is I found it impossible to meet the people for me – until I mirrored the actual values and needs I really had and faced up to my fears – I didn’t even understand what values meant and had to look it up on the internet/use old BR posts. These things helped me but may not help you? its up to you?
1) Accurately evaluate what your values and needs actually are and who you are actually looking for.
2) Follow through with your values and needs actively, focusing always on yourself and what your actual instincts are saying
3) Uncover whatever it is you have been in denial about – tricky without help and tricky if you are still in denial.
4) Face your fears – take the focus off them and put it on yourself.
5) Do not accept hanging around anyone who isn’t up to your values list 100%.
When you post on here YOUR true feelings, that accurately reflect who you are – the essence of you – the whole mistake laden AND perfect you – you are in effect taking the first step towards transforming YOUR pain and becoming emotionally available – keep expressing yourself safely and others may be able to express and connect with you and help you through it.
It can be sooo frustrating to turn it around but there is a very different feeling as – unfolding – describes above, when you manage to work through everything you need to and stop attracting assclowns like a magnet and start attracting emotionally available people because YOU are.
As for us living in harder modern times? I have no idea, I have never lived in any other times than the last 40 or so years so I can’t help you on that. Perhaps certain times during my life – such as schools and colleges etc… are a bit easier for being around other people/ a magnet for being in relationships but not necessarily the right ones? – and if it was so good before – why didn’t you end up in a good emotionally available relationship at that point?
I agree with you Oona, about the sex thing. I don’t have sex and actually wait a long time (by modern hook up culture standards) and I do it for MYSELF. My point was that no matter when you sleep with a EU man, he will still be EU. And just in general, I don’t like thinking and using sex as a bargaining chip.
I don’t jump right into sex (and I want to, believe me), because oxytocin makes me attach faster. And I want to be in control of this. At least at this point in my life. I do this for myself. I don’t do this because it’s moral (or not), or because of some trends or even not because of any expectations from a man’s side (“oh she’s not jumping into bed with me, she must be wife material” – i don’t believe this logic to be true in real life). I simply wait for sexual contact to happen because it messes with my judgement making skills. I do it for myself.
I’ve been an avid BR reader for several years now since discovering there was an actual name for someone like my ex “emotionally unavailable” and “non-committal”. I went out with someone for several years and from the get-go, the blowing hot and cold became VERY apparent! He came out of the gate blowing hot, hot, hot and the attention was something I loved and yearned for. Shortly after, the blowing cold started, and this lasted our ENTIRE RELATIONSHIP. The constant hot and cold, his non-committal ways, emotionally unavailability. This relationship did SO much damage to me and my life, when I finally decided to break up with him years later b/c nothing was changing and I literally couldn’t take anymore, I was just a shell of my former self. I didn’t even know who I was anymore. It took years to come out of that, and A LOT of hard work. I left that feeling traumatized/in shock. And let me tell you, some of these guys will not let up! You WILL hear from them again. I made several attempts at breaking it off earlier but he blew waaaay hot around these times, until I finally gave in. When we broke up, I continued hearing from him. It started off weekly and dwindled down to monthly then every few months I’d receive some stupid text at an absurd hour. He dated someone for a period and it was ONLY during this time that I didn’t hear from him. When she dumped him, I all of a sudden heard from him again. Unfortunately I reciprocated b/c this was a few years after our break up and I didn’t really care anymore. This turned into months later me running into him at a local pub, which turned into a text message a couple of weeks later, which turned into texts a couple of weeks after that, which turned into dinner invites every day for 2 weeks until I caved and finally said “fine I’ll join you” and so began the roller coaster ALL OVER AGAIN. This time we remained “friends” however, let me tell you, you CANNOT BE JUST FRIENDS WITH THESE GUYS. It’s 6 months since we became friends again and the last 6 months he’s been just as emotionally unavail even as a friend as he was in our relationship before. All his “patterns” with me are the same, all the reasons I broke up with him still exist. He’s remains the exact same non-committal guy griping about some chick who did him wrong, saying he doesn’t want a relationship “right now” but wants all the benefits of one…with me. I had to end our friendship recently and felt like I was going through the turmoil ALL OVER AGAIN. Way too painful. Once you move on, keep putting one foot in front of the other and do not look back! These guys don’t change. They just come in and stir up more pain. Unfortunately it’s going to take me some time to get over this…again. I wish you all love and light, everyone on here deserves love that’s 100% reciprocated, and nothing less xo
It’s amazing how similar these guys are. Mine would pull the same thing, over and over. I’d try to break up with him, and there would be an onslaught of emails, calls, text messages. Unlike most of the guys on here, he would even show up at my house. One time he rang my doorbell so many times I finally answered because he was scaring the crap out of my animals.
If I broke up with him, he would literally beg — like get on his knees in a prayer position, and BEG. He cried and the tears came down on my wood floor and warped it. I would think to myself, “OK, any guy who gets THIS upset about me leaving him will surely not make the same mistakes next time …” Au contraire. He would just be more diligent about covering them up next time. I’d think “Well, he knows what I want and he would not be here begging if he wasn’t prepared to give it.” He was probably thinking, “Well, she knows how I am, so if she takes me back, she must be prepared to deal with it.” I had NO idea people like this existed. I would certainly never cry, beg and plead with someone unless I was absolutely committed to making it work. That’s the fatal mistake we make — assuming they think like us. They DON’T.
“That’s the fatal mistake we make — assuming they think like us. They DON’T.” Yes, and giving them the benefit of the doubt.
@Diane and Veracity,
Fatal mistake indeed. Their thinking is almost incomprehensible to us. We don’t expect “selfish, temporary, immediate gratification with no concern for us words and actions” from people we trust. And that is another fatal mistake- trusting and believing them.
Say Something,
If you could erase the day you met him would you? In other words do you just wish you had never met the man who is not really a BGE?
Mary Jane,
Wow. That question seriously made me cry. Yes and No. Yes. OMG and I actually WENT TO HIS HOUSE. That’s how comfortable he’d made me feel before we’d actually met. I HAVE NEVER DONE THIS WITH ANYONE ELSE EVER IN MY LIFE. So one thing he did, was show me “my competition” (he asked, I said sure) online. We together read thru other women’s online profiles. I didn’t care at that point because I was not invested in a relationship yet, and then forgot about
it until after the end. I remember him clicking “No” on these profiles. WTF was that? Was I the prize? Was he the prize? Over analyzing but WTF? I dont know what that was about.
Yes. No. IDK…. TORTURE! Ughhhh! I haven’t deleted things yet. I haven’t.
Say Something,
I think it is actually very weird that he asked you to check out online profiles with you…seems like he was “Buddy-ing” up with you and create false intimacy by saying no to the other profiles. I think it is not very tasteful and I would not want to spend my time like that with a new guy that I am trying to get to know and that is his idea of introducing himself? Maybe I am too rigid on this, but the guy sounds like a loser…
Say Something,
I wanted to make sure I understand what you have written. So, before you started dating him he sat and showed you profiles of other women he was considering and those he declined to date? You went to his house before you started dating him? Maybe he was trying to show you that you were the ONE. Then he goes and screws it up. Makes no sense does it? Were you just friends first? How did you meet him?
He is not the prize. Someone who is the prize will treat you with respect and care for your heart. You are the prize. One day I hope you find someone who loves you as much as you love him. I hope you find someone that craves to spend the Summer with you. I can tell you were really looking forward to the Summer and trips with him. I understand your disappointment.
I spent the weekends with my x just like you did with BGE. I miss that. This whole process is emotionally draining.
Do you sit and wonder when the PAIN will end? I do. I really want my life back. I wish I had never met my x. The betrayal has caused me more PAIN then I need for a lifetime.
MJ/ Unfolding,
We met online, within days of me creating an account. Years ago I’d briefly tried it and met two people but nothing came of it. Anyhow years had gone by of me meeting nobody except two non-relationship guys. I wanted more. So in Dec 2013, after years of not being able to meet anyone, I decided to try online again and knew what I wanted in a partner.
We spent about 3 weeks getting to know each other before meeting in person. So yes, the first time we met, I actually drove to his house. He’d offered to drive to meet me, but I chose going there. I don’t even know how meeting at his house happened, but I wasn’t afraid. I’d told a friend, so it wasn’t a secret. Anyhow, my comfort level with him was unlike anyone I’ve ever met. Ever. Yep, I know this sounds like poor judgement on my part, but all I can explain is that there was SOMETHING about this guy that drew me to him unlike anyone I’ve ever known. Still no regrets on making that choice. I’d not do it with anyone else though.
So yes, one thing we did while I was there was look at “my competition” including the profile of a woman who’d recently been to his house. He showed me the “crazy” text she sent him 3 days earlier on Christmas day, starting that he should lock up because she’s been followed by her ex. He said “I thought she was normal”. From what he’d previously portrayed, I was unaware he’d even met anyone else. Said he wasn’t having any luck online… I am just not sure why he asked if I wanted to see my competition. He never showed me again. But weeks later he told me his ex gf contacted him through the dating site and he urged her to “clean up her profile” because “that house doesn’t need anymore trouble”. Not sure what that meant, but I said I’d listen if he wanted to talk, but I wasn’t going to get involved. His comment to me was “smart woman”. So idk if he wanted me to feel “chosen” because it seems strange now.
I ended up innocently spending the night (distance plus a few drinks) and we just slept, with his arms around me… that’s all. Spent Sunday together and when I was leaving he said he didn’t know how much he could see me in the next few weeks because of year end fiscal work. Whatever, I had no expectations. But then he was in touch EVERYDAY including every morning and every night, and he never missed a beat. Two weeks later I saw him again, and the rest is history. And it’s history because it no longer exists.
He showed me all good qualities, which was actually, last I saw, the opening line in his online profile after he discarded me: “In this forum, I’d much rather show you my good qualities than list them…” something like that… Anyhow, I never saw the ugly side or anything even close until TLW, when he seemingly became a different person. It was like he pressed the DELETE button. K.done.bye
I can’t just “delete” so the pain still lingers. And maybe it’s because I miss the BGE that disappeared. The BGE illusion. I don’t get how he could pull off being the BGE for months. And like you experienced MJ, just be DONE.
Hi Say Something,
I wasn’t sure but I thought initially he was trying to act like a buddy and then you both formed a relationship. I think he is full of himself to sit and show you your competition. For what? Major ego trip. This man sounds like he is on line colleting women.
I couldn’t figure out how my x spent so much time with me and ended up with someone new. Later, I figured that part out. He had several profiles on dating sites. I WAS SHOCKED. Why get down on your name and propose and profess your love (knowing you are full of crap)? He could sit right at my house while visiting me and check his profile from his phone. Pretty SLICK. I had no idea an engaged man would be online looking. He NEVER told me he was unhappy. If he had of been honest I would have sent him on his WAY. What a fricken liar.
I can see how you would bond with (he is not)BGE. You go over to meet him and he doesn’t act like an animal the first night you stay over. Then he makes all these promises about things you will do together. And it sounds like you had been looking for awhile.
What is your plan for starting over in terms of finding someone worth your time? I cant use online. It just seems so creepy. These men like my x are on their telling all KINDS of lies. I was shocked to see the things he lied about. It hurt to see him in outfits that he had on when he came to my house.
So, just before he would leave to come to my house this Frickin FOOL was setting up in his hut taking selfies shamelessly. SMH SMH. He is over the top.
He is out here now searching high and low for women. He is lining up a stack of women. There are so many women looking for a man. He is going to PULL in a lot. He is SO handsome. He will wear his mask and it will take them awhile to discover he has no CHARACTER. His soul is dark and will be hidden under his crooked smile. LOL. He is going to disappear on them just like he did with ME. I am certain of that. I treated him like a KING and he treated me like a QUEEN when he was with me. The dirt he did in the dark when he left my place has me floored. Smiling in my face and stabbing me in my back.
He is no better than these scam artists who sit up Ponzi schemes. He deceived me and broke my heart. I guess I never really knew him after all. He kissed me goodbye knowing he was headed to a hotel to sleep with a woman. He was not going to a basketball game. I wonder if he laughed when he left my house?
MJ,
Please check out the link I included in one of my above comments. Sometimes EU can also include pathology, which is what I continue to research and struggle with. Personality does not always match character, which is something Natalie has written about. But sometimes personality is SOO deceptive and can be a cover for pathological character.
I guess you don’t necessarily know WHEN he posted pics in certain outfits. He may have posted them weeks or months later. Either way, you know he is NOT behaving as a committed, engaged man. And that sucks. And hurts.
I’m not sure how I will ever find a good guy. ONE.GOOD.GUY. No idea, as when I THOUGHT I’d found the BGE, how could I have been so completely, terribly, horribly, awfully wrong.
Somehow we both found our way into one-sided faux mutual relationships.
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/special.shtml
“You two have a “connection,” a rapport that he didn’t have with his ex. You have more things in common, similar personalities. He’s pointed out all the ways that you two are so alike – it’s just uncanny. You are so lucky to have met him at this point in your life. He says that he really appreciates you for who you are – and he’s the first person to really do that, isn’t he? Sure, he said the same things to *her* when he got together with her (and then grew to hate so many things about her), but it’s different with you. He couldn’t possibly be operating from scripts anymore. And it’s so nice to finally have someone YOU can lean on, isn’t it? It’s hard being on your own, building a career, managing a household, and doing it all yourself. All of a sudden, here’s this guy offering to help in ways that no one ever did. Knowing all the things you have been longing for and wanting in a partner. He couldn’t possibly be hooking into your heart-felt desires and hurt places and pretending to be the answer, because he knows that’s where you are vulnerable. He couldn’t be pretending to like the things you like, and want the things you want, and be the person you have been looking for, because it’s part of his patterns. Just because he did that with the women that came before you, doesn’t mean he’s doing that with you. He’s really sincere this time…”
Online dating is harsh.
Right now I’m just muddling through. Getting to the next day. Smiling at the world. But still feeling broken inside.
I posted a couple other responses earlier, not sure if you saw them or if they got buried. I saw yours.
Tyla,
You have had it really hard. He is an %**. How are you coping with the pain? Please try hard not to let what he has done drain the life out of you. It sounds like you really care about him. You would have never gone in for another dose of this pain. You have some sound advice. Don’t go back and just keep putting one foot in front of the other and moving on.
Please share if you can how you are healing. I am working out and trying to find things that interest me. I have some trips planned. When I think of him I put the focus back on ME and what I should be doing to heal and move forward.
You WILL BE FINE. He is not worth being a friend with. You don’t need this kind of PAIN. You will heal.
Mary Jane,
Thank you for your kind words. The healing process is exactly that, placing the focus on YOU and reminding yourself that these guys DO NOT deserve to be perched up on the pedestals we’ve become used to placing them on, THEY ARE NOT THAT SPECIAL. They have little to offer any relationship, whether that be with you or anyone for that matter! Dig your feet in REALITY with the messages you tell yourself (self-talk). See these guys for who they really are, they have very very limited capacity to offer anyone anything. We’re not missing much. Do good things for yourself, surround yourself with good, decent, genuine people. I’ve also found allowing myself to just sit through my emotions, not fight them or repress them, but just allowing myself to sit with my pain, and process it, accept it…has helped. There’s a lot of anxiety and fear around trying to control the uncontrollable. So just focus on YOU, and let go of what you have no control over. You’re a wonderful person with SO much to offer and this relationship DOES NOT DEFINE YOU. You will find your happy place, and you deserve SO much more! xo
In my experience, “friendship” with someone who screwed with your head, blew hot & cold, & took u for granted serves no purpose. It just makes the guy feel less of the turd that he is. After all, how badly could he have treated u if you’re still giving him access to u? I for one still have expectations of friends – that their behavior toward me is generally consistent, that they show by their actions that I’m important to them, that the effort I give is poured back into me, that I can trust them, that I’m respected and valued by them. He lost the privledge of my friendship, of my care & concern, of my “being there” for him, of him knowing my thoughts & feelings. Read Nat’s posts on being part of their “harem” of female “friends” & exes they reach out to whenever they’re feeling in need of an ego-stroke or in a nostalgic mood. No thank u, I’ll pass. When someone shows u their true colors, accept it & move on, don’t try to re-paint them. In my opinion, any energy expended in their direction is better spent on YOU, & on authentic friends who truly care about u.
Well stated!
Hi GettingItRight and all… I can relate. I came to my senses after four months with a guy I was quite fond of who didn’t know what he wanted with me after I asked point blank. It was hard to hear but I faced it and said, “I know what I want and it hurts that you don’t so I need to go process this on my own. I accept that this is where you’re at. Spending time with you is wonderful but I’ll always want there to be more there so I need to take some time away from you.”
I also described this next step for us as a “new file folder” – closing the old one and opening a new one. He asked what that would look like and I said I didn’t know. I made no promises that we’ll be “friends” or everything will be ok. I said that I thought I’d always want him in my life but right now, it hurts to have him around – which is how I felt at the time.
That was almost 2 months ago. We’ve had little contact – he reached out when my cat died earlier this month, a nice email and I thanked him. He replied to my thank you, I didn’t respond. I returned his book to him (by mail) and he did same. I let him know it arrived. We chatted briefly on FB mgr and it was kind and cordial, which was nice, but the convo was starting to get familiar (armchair therapy about how drama-filled his life is) so I wrapped it up, wished him well and thanked him for returning my book.
Today is his birthday and, as this blog attests, this is always a challenge in terms of, “Do I reach out, do I not?” I struggled with this. Today, I thought, “I’m doing pretty well, feeling better, healing… surely I can wish him HBD.” I tried to think of any reason it would be “OK” and yet, something held me back.
I realize now, it’s a larger question I’m grappling with – it’s not whether I wish him HBD, it’s whether I want to be friends, whether I am ready to be friends, whether we *can* be friends. Whether to add something to the “new file folder” in the name of “friendship.”
I’ve realized that it’s too soon – not because I’m suffering but because we haven’t seen each other in person since we had “The Talk About What We Want.” I could post on his FB wall, but interacting online just isn’t the same as in person. I decided, until I see him in person, I won’t really know how I feel, how much healing I’ve done.
So, I say all of this to point out two things that might be helpful to others on this site too:
1. There’s something liberating to me about him knowing he’s hurt me. I was direct: when we parted, I calmly let him know it hurt me that I knew what I wanted and he didn’t. It means there’s a reason not to contact him (it hurts) and he knows that. It also means, even after the pain passes, I don’t have to update him on that. He can continue to believe he’s “broken my heart” and anytime he wonders why I’m not in touch, he’ll be reminded: “Dude, she told you how she felt and you blew it.” Somehow, I don’t feel a need to prove to him I’m “over it” when it happens. Maybe I feel some pride in my pain: “I fell for you and I wouldn’t change that because taking risks and being vulnerable is part of what makes me who I am.”
2. I’ve decided that I won’t know if we’ll be friends until we *naturally cross paths in person.* I’m not avoiding him but I’m not placing myself in his environment either. Due to an unusual shared interet with a small local community where I live (which is what brought us together in the first place), I predict our paths are bound to cross – which, when I think about it, is how authentic friendships happen. So, if we are to be friends, I would be curious to see how it feels to be around him in a social way, doing something I would *want to be doing anyway* (this shared interest). New file folder indeed – but only by way of my path meeting his organically and discovering it feels healthy/resolved to me.
…and if our paths do not naturally cross, then that’s information too, isn’t it… If, while conducting our lives apart, we never intersect… well, the question of friendship therefore resolves itself. File folder closed.
Thanks to this site for helping me maintain No Contact on his birthday today …and I hope sharing my experience is helpful to you too!
GettingItRight, what an excellent post! Now that I read you, I remember an old me who used to think like you… before the Eum came along and depleted me for quite a few years, and other ‘friends’ chimed in and took some more. I am regaining my strength, hopefully I’ll be where you are soon. Best, V.
Diane,
Same with my situation! He’d show up at my door, and he’d also ring and ring not getting what my ignoring him and not answering was all about (clue in buddy!). He apologizes for this now, all the front door visits and apparently recognizes it wasn’t right, HOWEVER his disconnected ways remain the same. As a friend of mine put it, this kind of “relationship” is way too confusing and way to disappointing on a regular basis, it’s SO draining. And it is. It just murders any self esteem you have. And you’re right, they DO NOT think like we do. Or we wouldn’t be at this juncture, on Baggage Reclaim comparing stories!
Post close family death, the BR aware me decided – in a quiet moment away from others, that what I needed to feel better about it was – not to go to the funeral, to be upfront/clear about not going, with everyone I needed to, cards sent out and texts making it clear. No inherited ‘treasures’ from them, but a copy of one photograph I really loved of them and a copy of instructions for something they used to use.
And I wrote these initial feelings down in ink.
I did all the above – apart from getting the instructions so far but I am waiting for inspiration about where I could safely get the instructions from without sacrificing my soul…if not I’ll make it up myself from other ideas and have my own trial and error experiments to work it out/make my own instructions up…
I had some seriously close moments of weakness but also connected with really really strong clarity and knowledge, in-between, that my initial instinct does not let me down when I chose to give it space to be heard/follow it and I had clear ideas and visions about what clearly hasn’t worked for me in the past and what has worked for me – and I persued worked ideas relentlessly through some tough persuasion/emotional blackmail otherwise.
I wrote out my feelings out about the person who died, fairly quickly and how they genuinely made me feel – good and bad, some of it turned into a surprising poem that strangely I could find all the right metaphors for without trying and gave many points of view instead of just the one – which felt accurate to me and alive and real….then I told family I had written something for the funeral… I didn’t mention I wrote a poem – none of them know I’ve been writing for years in secret and as you/i could have predicted I received no encouraging reply/curiosity or even a can we read it first before including it? which made me feel instantly bad even though I recognised I had never received curiosity before about things I valued I had achieved – and that by telling them – I was really still seeking validation by the backdoor from them….or not… after everything!…. so I accepted what I was doing, my role in it and sent the writing – having rewrote it out in ink whilst sitting in my car at the top of the nearby hill watching the sun go down after a beautifully sunny day – posted in a sealed envelope – to be incinerated with them in the coffin.
I read out my twin rough copy with a lighted candle at the same time as their funeral – safe and well in my home and burned the copy. Scattering the ashes after.
Along the way I almost got tripped up by the…
1) internal guilt trip/reframing – its all my fault – if only I sacrificed myself and did these things, tried harder, maybe they would show me the love and genuine interest/care I have been searching for all my life? – conveniently ignoring I have played along most my life and received more pain not less for doing so.
2) ‘we would like to fully organize x for you but we want you to pay an equal share for it’ …. this ‘organizing’ has happened before resulting in me being totally left out of any input or creativity/ suppressing my voice completely and any recognition of my actual care for the person involved/whilst glorifying them….However….before they asked me to organize anything – I felt perfectly able/had no need of help and was looking forward to arranging my own things and paying for it all fully, entering into it all with full spirit??? This time, I listened to this instinct repeatedly while I wobbled temporarily… then choosing to generously look at their offer as possibly kindness based on their ignorance of me – for which I also have a part role/and they have shown little interest in reversing – I felt any help wasn’t necessary for me and in-fact didn’t forfil my needs accurately, as per my prior vision, and I thanked them but politely declined and achieved my own organising – even though they ignored my request for information I needed to help me on my own quest – I moved on and found it from other places.
3)My own jealousy – siblings were all consulted as to their availability to go to the funeral but not me, before setting the date. Siblings were encouraged in roles within the funeral and post death.
4)Not allowing others to co depend on me.
5)Fear of being alone all my life and no one ever caring for me or caring to go to any funeral I would have esp. seeing as I have no family of my own – I reminded myself funerals are for the living and I would be unaware of it as a dead person in reality and being alone has been some of the best experiences and thriving times of my life so far….
6)Set myself up – trying to put myself in difficult arrangements so it could have been difficult to forfil what I needed to do alternatively, to going to the funeral.
7)Internal critism – look you haven’t even organised a smart whole black outfit to wear – you don’t even look like yourself – I bet they are all in expensive gear head to toe and well matching them and perfectly groomed…..better and closer than last year though and the year before that….
After receiving one line communication from a sibling that all was done and ‘very emotional’ but no query as to what I was doing to cope with it – I didn’t overly console them, as the norm, but recognised acknowledgment was all that was needed. I was also in mourning and in no state to carry anyone else.
When I found myself sitting there waiting for a certain other person to drop me a line to let me know how it went – I switched the phone off and wrote out my feelings once more/found my own focus – and yet more inspiration for another poem!…
It’s not my beautiful illusion of family harmony and how I always hoped I would be in my family or how I hoped my family would treat or look/see me but it is current reality and I feel safer, happier and sucking up less harmful knocks than I have ever been… and gaining confidence in myself daily to allow myself to be vulnerable – and be seen for my real self – by myself and other people but its really not easy and takes real focus on drowning out the noise and noting all of my initial instincts as they come in, regularly… as being real and important to me and my survival – no procrastinating – and forgiving myself when I haven’t valued them and paid for it.
When someone dies it is the ultimate in leaving relationships and you have the same choice to cope with it that you have in all relationships – that is what I think Natalie is saying above – that we have a choice to either stay in a dead relationship (procrastinate/pretend/co-conspirator) or actively find live ones starting with yourselves, and branching out from there when more confident and knowledgeable.
Its quite frightening designing my relationship with family so far outside of what is presented as societies norm and constantly have to battle my own feelings as outlined above but it is much much more frightening for me to keep it up and deal with the consequences – especially with the awareness I learned.
Add – tripped up on communication from family narc telling me their version of events at funeral – even though I never texted them for anything and never will – which in deleting it – (you have to go on to it to delete) – i glanced how my siblings had all got together and written something and read it out at the funeral…. guess I ‘m not the only writer in the family after all and guess I needed that kick in the teeth once more.
Would have been nice to feel I was encouraged to do something like that and included in this family – but I am clearly not or ever going to be – despite the family narc’s attempt to pretend via descriptive reports of events I haven’t asked for – that I am included – hurtful but I am not going to beat myself up – I will get on with what I need to do for me today – and chalk it up to the last suck it and see event I have to do with them. Had enough now. So much for family relationships.
The MM contacted me a couple weeks ago after I had gone almost a year NC. Some how he found my number.
I got caught up in texting as usual, but nothing more than that – thank goodness. This even after I mused about how what we were doing was wrong. I’m as EU as he is. I know he doesn’t care – he’s just bored, stressed and whatever and he ran out of unofficial “therapists.” Fortunately, it wasn’t heavy, but I got caught up in it nonetheless. They were mostly non-sexual – I pretty much kept it that way.
We’ll never be able to see each other again in person – I just don’t have the time & I don’t want to adjust my schedule to squeeze him in (Trust me, this is an improvement over last year). I thought, well, I’m not going to see him again, so what’s wrong with a few meaningless texts?
Well, he’s wasting my time. He’s taking up room in my head.
I was bothered when he said he didn’t want our friendship ruined. What’s to ruin? We’re not friends.
I was so proud that I had gone no contact. All it took was one text to be swept up in it. I’m less proud, but I managed to keep texting to a minimum and the content clean. I’m just glad he lives too far away. I don’t think I would have managed this long had he lived closer.
Back to NC. This time longer until I begin to know better and demand better for myself. One foot in front of the other.
This post is amazing! I need to stop reading and start acting… I need to take your advice and apply it into my everyday life.
Thanks V. I must admit it’s still a daily struggle to continue no contact as we have lots of mutual friends. I see him comment on common friend’s facebook posts & just the sight of his name elicits anxiety & shame in me. I continue to struggle with forgiving myself for being swept up in his charm, tolerating his alternating sweetness & indifference, & the steady depletion on my self-esteem riding the rollercoaster as long as I did until it left me emotionally & physically sick. I’ve seen him since in a group setting & it was extremely awkward. I don’t know that I’ll ever get to the point where the thought or sight of him brings nothing but indifference. He’ll probably always be a trigger, as the dynamic with him mirrored some core wounds I experienced as a child…the ignoring, the hot & cold, the not being valued for who I was… He touches a nerve & it makes me hypersensitive to him. Add the fact that I truly loved him, & if he felt that way too I can’t understand how he could’ve treated me like crap the majority of the time. But at the end of the day, loving him came at the expense of not loving myself. I just couldn’t do both any longer, it had gotten that bad. I had to choose me. Before I went no contact I limited contact with him significantly, but time & time again I’d wind up feeling disappointed, disrespected, unappreciated. Why was I chasing this guy’s friendship? What does it matter what I called it anyway? Friends, lovers, acquaintences…it still boiled down to a non-reciprocal, non-mutual, unbalanced, toxic mix that more often than not left me feeling crappy about myself. As Nat says, “he’s just not that special”.
I fear the same thing. That my exEUW will be a trigger forever. Hopefully I never see her again in person because even though I’m 98% over it… it would make me extremely nervous and uneasy. I can relate to your words and I feel your pain for sure. It is tough. I was lucky enough for my exEUW to basically have no friends, so I could completely cut her off cleanly. I can’t imagine having an ex who know all your friends. That is just horrible. You’ll get through it. Just keep up the NC and take one day at a time. Asking yourself why you’re chasing a toxic person is the same thing I asked myself for 4 or 5 months. The answer is that deep in your mind/soul, something about that person reminds you of yourself. You see yourself in that person, they remind you of feelings you’re familiar with. It has a nostalgic feeling to it, like the same feeling you get when you hold an old childhood object or stuffed animal. You’d do anything to not let that object go. I think that description nails it, for me anyway. The hardest thing you have to do is throw that object (your ex) into the fire, and let it burn and disintegrate away. It will make you sad, and will be hard, but in the end you’re better off because that person was just making you sick. Good luck to you!
I’m definitely a people pleaser and resigned myself to unrequited love as a young child. I never wanted a relationship, mainly because I never believed in them. I used to think people were stupid for not expecting their relationship to end at some point. Fast forward to today, and I am in the process of getting out of an emotionally unavailable relationship or situationship really. The only difference between myself and this article, is that I cannot claim to be emotionally available. I am very closed off, always have been, and I have a HUGE amount of work to do on myself. My ex-bf is also damaged/broken and emotionally unavailable, but having been involved with one another off and on for the past ten years thought we’d give it a try. I am in therapy, and am working on myself to change my cynical view of relationships and people in general. My parents divorced when I was very young, and it was rough until about 7 years ago. I have always been extremely sensitive to tension, loud noises, conflict, and just overall discomfort. Hence why I prefer to be alone, but being involved with my ex-bf over time has made me actually want to experience a “real” relationship now. I’m taking those difficult steps to VOICE my feelings and express my needs, and put myself first. I struggle with my identity as a grown woman because I never really had the opportunity to find it in my youth. My goal is just to keep trying. This post was right on time!!! Thank you Natalie!
OMG. I wonder if I wrote this post in my sleep. You have described me to a T – even about the sensitivity to tension, loud noises, conflict, and just overall discomfort. I don’t see myself as cynical about relationships – I think most people are chasing a fantasy.
It has only been in the last 4 years that I began thinking I want to have a boyfriend – a steady boyfriend. I just started to feel like I want to have a depth of connection with another person. But in my view, I don’t see too many deeply connected people. I see a lot of role-playing relationships.
But, like you, I am working on coming into my own. And surprisingly, I don’t feel like it’s “too late”, or I am “too old”. I think there are men who might be seeking warmth and stability and aren’t super tied up in the woman looking like Halle Berry. Only time will tell.
Thank you for your articles. I have been reading a lot of your work, and it has helped me greatly. I went through a painful break up a couple months ago, and it was very sudden. The signs were all there, but my habit is to do many things you have outlined in your writing. I am working on this now.
I just bought your book as well.