Many of the issues that affect our self-esteem and quality of life find their way back to boundaries, and when I talk to people who struggle with limits and respecting themselves or even others, not only is there always an issue with giving and receiving no, but there are negative associations with it.
For many ‘NO Strugglers’, being declined is a reminder of being denied something that they wanted (or a series of similar experiences) or is automatically equated with rejection and not being ‘good enough’. In fact they likely mix up disappointment and rejection so when they get a ‘negatory’ on their wishes and expectations, they struggle with the feelings and come to associate these with being rejected in some way, even though this will be a less than accurate version of events.
It’s this idea that all no is ‘bad’ and that when it’s been given rightly or wrongly, it’s been down to worth. Boundaries basically become a pain in the arse, that Party Pooper that wants to rain or even pee on their parade, or ‘joy blockers’.
When you’re a NO Struggler and have to respect your own boundaries and have limits, you rebel. You might want to say NO on one level but on another, you equate something like declining naughty foods, not buying something you like but don’t need, or having to step away from someone unhealthy, with denying you. Because you associate this with, for instance, being denied as a child, you may have decided that you’re not going to say NO to you and be like The Wicked Witch of the West or The Big Bad Wolf.
I don’t like how I feel when I say NO – it reminds me of ________________ .
When people say NO to me, it reminds me of _____________ and I feel _____________ and I think ___________ so I do things (people pleasing) like __________ and ___________ to minimise experiencing these feelings and memories.
If people say NO to me, I perceive is as a rejection so I try to say YES as much as possible so that I don’t reject others but also in the hope that they’ll return the favour.
NO Strugglers also worry about how they ‘look’. How will people see me if I say NO?
If you worry about looking ‘bad’, what you may not realise is that this is how you see people who say ‘No’ to you. How do you feel about people who say it to you?
Having a negative association with no is a precursor to either running around saying yes even when it should be no, or feeling mangled by guilt and anxiety when you do exercise your option to say it.
You want the approval more than you want peace and your own respect.
No isn’t a dirty word and it’s very necessary for living your life authentically. We must learn boundaries and limits and we must respect those of others and the truth is, if we’re not respecting our own boundaries, we’re not being as respectful of other people’s boundaries as we think. We’re not.
Excessive ‘no’ earlier in your life may have caused you to be sensitive to it. Negative associations might be about being poor, being neglected, punishment, withholding, rejection etc. I couldn’t hack no because I thought it meant ‘failure to please’. The thing is, even people who literally have the means to never have to deny themselves anything have discovered that it doesn’t make them happy. They need some no in their lives.
There is such a thing as a positive NO. The option exists for a good reason – we have to turn down inappropriate things and say yes to what respects us as individuals and also respect others. Agreeing to people’s shady and unhealthy requests isn’t respectful; it’s enabling.
If you say ‘yes’ to everything, how genuine are your responses? How much appreciation do you have in your own life?
You have to learn to say no to you because while neglect can come from always saying no, just as much neglect can come from always saying yes. Not all yes’s are good, especially when they compromise you and sell you out for short-term highs with longer term pain.
Learning to say NO defines your limits, respects you as a person, respects your time, and allows you to say yes positively. Recognising that I can say ‘No’ to my kids and set boundaries and still love them has helped me to do a hell of a lot of growing up about no and rejection. I have to do the same thing for me and I have to respect others.
Knowing your own boundaries is really invaluable because it gets you to consider what does and doesn’t work for you ahead of time (or after saying yes) and to keep listening through the feedback of your interactions. Recognising general unhealthy behaviour such as code amber and red behaviour and situations because you can say no with the knowledge of experience or the rule.
If you’re presented with the same type of situation over and over again that you say yes to when it should be no, where is the thought process? You have enough self-knowledge and experience to know that X doesn’t work for you because you end up feeling and doing Y and then Z outcome happens. If you thought about this instead of reliving memories or fantasising about an unrealistic future outcome based on repeating unproductive behaviour and thinking, you could change your present and future experiences.
By understanding why you have to say no to you on a certain thing or why you have to decline a certain type of request, when those requests come about, you understand why you’re saying no, validate your no with the knowledge of your boundaries and you don’t feel guilty and if you do, you validate again.
People who don’t have boundaries haven’t given enough thought to having them in the first place and aren’t recognising their own feelings, thoughts and experiences, so each time requests come in, they get caught on the hop because they still haven’t given enough thought and made a decision ahead of time and stuck to it.
There are lots of different types of NO’s or situations that present themselves for saying no. If you lump them all into one ‘rejection’ or ‘terrible’ job lot, you group lots of unrelated items on the basis of all no being ‘bad’ instead of seeing that each of these situations is different. Undermining your own boundaries and decisions will only cause you to have to keep making the same ‘ole decisions and experiencing the same ‘ole pain. Saying, showing, meaning and sticking to no will change this.
Your thoughts?
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I have no problem saying no although I prefer to do so in as respectful a manner as possible. I would much rather folks say no outright to me rather than wasting my time /emotional energy, or in the case of being asked to help, just not showing up.
So true. I’ve been working on this lately, especially since I’ve gone NC, but not just with the EUAC, also with family and friends. I worry about awkwardness when I try to set boundaries and sometimes think that person will no longer like me if I say no. But this blog has helped me realize that saying no, and then opting out when a situation doesn’t work for me, is a necessity. And if a person doesn’t like me for that, then I’m probably better off without them in my life anyway. 🙂
Saying NO or hearing NO is not saying the person or you is bad,,,just not a good choice.
This is why I see red when I see web sites that promise “Get you Ex Back”.
I think if they went away…..they should stay that way. Otherwise you are on a very unhealthy merry go round. We are all here because we have done this!
NO means move on!
This topic and Valley Forge Lady’s comment reminds of this. There is a very popular relationship guru (I call HER that, but NOT Natalie). Her initials are R.R. That woman nauseates me because her entire agenda is centered around saying yes to men. She advocates that we are supposed to whine, cajole, scheme, overgive, and turn ourselves inside out to make our man give us the relationship we want. This pisses me off so much because she has a wide following, and I feel this encourages women to be someone other than who they truly are, to be doormats ready to do anything to keep it going. This is so damaging to women. Thank God Natalie advises us to take care of ourselves FIRST, stop fawning over these AC’s, and giving them our butts to kick. NO! Never again will I subscribe to that BS. Thankfully, we on BR are all learning not to do this. We are learning to say “No” much more often to men who will seek to slowly, insidiously, wear us down in order to achieve their devious purposes of using us. Yes, saying “No” is sometimes a very good thing and we should try to see the value and benefits from doing so. In remembering there are men on here I’m not pointing at you unless the shoe fits.
Thanks, Tinkerbell. I haven’t learned my lesson yet to say NO, but with every post I read, I’m getting closer. It’s funny…because my AC actually said to me “You know I don’t like it when you say no to me…it makes me very unhappy.” Really? Well he doesn’t say no to me…he just disappears. My closeness to learning “no” is his recent ignore, posts on his fb from another woman, and keeping me guessing on an invitation from me to go to an event. He’ll not let me know until the very last minute. And like others on here…I also have problems saying no to family and friends. I’m such a people pleaser except to myself. Ugh!
Disappearing acts. The M.O. of EUMs. Isn’t it exasperating? And then the showing up when they please and out of the blue as if nothing is askew, you’re supposed to be ecstatic.
Exactly! NC = No. In saying nothing, I said no to accepting crumbs, deception, disrespect, dishonesty, devaluation, etc. Saying no via NC was the first step in saying yes to rebuilding my self esteem and engaging in healthier relationships.
I was never that much of a pleaser or “yes girl” at my own expense before but I was raised to be polite. It still feels a little uncomfortable to ignore ex AC/Narc’s friendly hoovers but I have – all except one. I replied to a recent business referral inquiry from him but I used pro forma correspondence that I would send to a stranger and did not reply to his next offer of other assistance. (His m.o. to suck me and other people in and make him feel and look like a good guy is his generosity.) Anyway, I believe the referral is likely legitimate but, most important to AC, it was a ploy to get me to reply after over 8 months NC. I thought about it for a while before talking to my biz partner because, as much as I didn’t want to give AC any satisfaction, I didn’t think it was entirely ethical to ignore a company revenue opportunity because of my personal life. My partner helped me decide to go with my instinct to send my form reply that clearly does not require further communication with AC and do nothing further. (My partner is a great guy who gets why I am NC with the AC.) I also dithered about whether to tell my new bf and did. Anyway, I’m still feeling unsettled about this break in my NC = No. I would welcome any thoughts on the situation…
FX
you did completely the right thing. I get how unsettled it makes you. The ex MM sent out an “innocent” feeler, two in fact, and although I have not replied I am surprised myself at how upset I have felt since. I had been feeling actually good about it being over before that. In the past I would have felt so happy to hear from him, and taken it as a sign that he cared (although of course he says nothing of the kind).
I realise that I really do have a big problem with no, where he is concerned and he knows that,(because I flip-flapped so manu times) which is why he is rattling the doorknob to see if it is locked. I never thought of him as a flip flapper but he is, it was him who broke it off and then here he is popping up again.
It takes a long time to get over these ACs, they do so much damage. sometimes I think I never will, not entirely. I’ll never be able to be okay with seeing or communicating with him. Never.
I am going to try to focus this week on overdue self care matters -Dr, dentist and hairdresser.
You’re lucky to have a nice guy you can discuss this with.
I can SO relate….I have flip flopped so many times, that he knows all he has to do is send his flattering crumbs, and back I go. The limited amount of times I have said “no” and “I’ve had enough” I feel awful and always end up being nice to him, which leads to more crumbs, which leads to sleeping with him again, which leads to devaluation and discard, which leads to my feeling awful. Yet I can’t seem to say no and mean it!
Nancy, I did this, too, until I had enough. I know my ex AC still contacts me because I let him reel me back in so many times and he still thinks he has that power and control. It is all about power and control, with most of them, btw. If he wanted to be with you, he would be. End of. I refused to be his option anymore over 8 months ago and took my power back.
You have to make the decision to have your own back because he sure as heck doesn’t have your best interests at heart. It’s an addiction and, as bad as you feel going through withdrawal and crave a hit from your pain source, even a taste will set you back on the path of self-destruction. Really, full NC is the only way. Take your lovely sails out of his ill wind. Let him huff and puff all he likes because it won’t have any further effect on you.
You must Nancy or you will keep feeling worse and worse. Speaking of bad advice I work in a male dominated industry and have mostly male coworkers. Me and my gfs analyzed the shit out of my ex so I would bounce off different incidents at work to get a male perspective. When I dumped my ex Narc for the last time a few of them said “are you nuts girl?” The way he treats you? Who is going to spend that kind of money on you?” He seems like a great guy so why can’t you ease up on him when he screws up? My true male friends who really cared about me said…this guy is a master game player, is sucking the energy out of you and the relationship is getting unhealthy for you. This guy is actually rattling your self esteem and making you obsess. After his last disappearing act I really was an obsessive mental case.
These kinds of men will destroy you little by little if you let them. NC is the best NO you can say.
Nancy,
I can relate. Today makes 3 weeks NC (woohoo!), but the EUAC has tried different methods over the past three weeks to get a response from me, including flattery/praise — which I am a sucker for. ugh He did his “research” on me, I guess, and knows that I have issues with feeling like people actually care/give two shits/acknowledge what I do, and he was always really good about that.
But, I didn’t respond to the flattery/praise crumbs and actually decided to opt out of an upcoming trip with the EUAC and a bunch of mutual friends because I wasn’t sure that I’d be able to withstand his charms, flattery, flirtation, etc.
I feel kind of pathetic because I do want to hang out with other people, but I just did not think I could handle hanging out with him. And I don’t want to get sucked back into the cycle. I didn’t trust myself not to let him press The Reset Button and end up hooking up with him. I think I made the right choice, but at the same time, I feel ridiculous for having made it.
Mckenzie don’t feel silly. You did exactly the right thing for you. All kinds of horrors could have occurred if you had gone. He could give you the cold shoulder/ST the whole trip, he could schmooze you into a shag and then blow icy on you, he could have hooked up with someone else in front of you, or talked about OW non stop. Do any of these scenarios sound good to you?
You may have to go NC/LC with these mutual friends for a bit, unless you can count on them not mentioning him to you. Do not kid yourself you can be friends with him. I did that and it was agony. The only way to get over this is to go NC. And mean it. Wishing you luck.
The major problem is that our mutual friends don’t know what happened, and I really don’t want to tell them how I got played/used by the EUAC. Of course, if I did, they would likely take my side, but still; I’d rather not be gossip fodder. I’m sure the EUAC is fine with everyone not knowing what happened because that way they don’t know what a complete asshole he’s been to me.
The trip is actually in a couple months, but the amount of time I would’ve had to spend hanging out with him was just a bit much to think about at this point so I couldn’t agree to it. Who knows where I’ll be at when the time it actually happens, but at this point in time, I can’t see myself being friends with him.
You SO hit the nail on the head. Mine delights in calling other women on the phone when we are in the car together, or constantly hooking up with other women, or ignoring me when we are in a group setting. Ugh. What the heck am I doing still hoping for those crumbs!!!
Good decision McKenzie I believe you would have been set back. It is way too early and btw congrats on 3 weeks NC You are on your way 🙂 Victorious is right. You can’t kid yourself that you can be friends with him. Impossible while you still care and messes your head up and puts you at square one. NC!!
Thanks! I just keep wondering how long it will take me to get over this. I feel like this has done me worse for the wear than previous times where things didn’t end well with a guy. The EUAC really did a number on me.
Don’t beat yourself up over this mckenzie. How bad you feel and how long it takes you to get over it relates to the mindfuckery that has gone on, rather than the length of the relationship. I divorced my husband of 13 years and wasn’t a fraction upset compared to getting over the 5/6 month ex narc fiasco. I am 4 months NC and actually, the longer you are NC, the LESS you will feel like you ever want to socialise with him again. You need to put yourself first here and protect yourself. Putting out some feelers for new friends might be a good idea as there will be no bad associations with the ex. Good luck.
You’re right. I probably should start finding other people to hang out with/talk to because as of right now, most of my friends are mutual friends with him. We got so enmeshed in each other’s lives during the initial hot/Fast Forwarding/Future Faking phase that it’s been kind of a mess untangling everything.
Thanks for the good luck wishes — I’ll need it. 🙂
You are exactly right Vic! I was with my ex Narc about the same amount of time as my ex husband (10 yrs) I moved right on after my ex hub with no obsessing, confusion, second guessing etc I am friends with him with no problem and we are actually there for each other. There was so much mindfuckery in my relationship with the Narc. It is just so different and only someone who has been there could know the damage and craziness you get sucked into. I am also 4 months NC with the exception of the Christmas telling off. I truly want nothing to do with him and told him that when he freaked over me not responding to his holiday greetings bs. The longer you are away from them the more disgust you will feel and the more clarity you get over how unhealthy the relationship was. I avoid everyone and anything that has to do with him. Yes I gave up some friends and I even gave up some of my favorite places to go but I am resolved to be successful at NC this time and that is what we must do to gain freedom and peace.
McKenzieM,
Good for you, you listened to your gut, your intuition. It gets better, stronger, louder, as you keep listening to it. You made the right choice for you, and yes, it feels weird, to take care of ourselves, sometimes almost ridiculous as you said. But I have come to learn is I push that re-set button too, and allow him to do it, believing in the fantasy that something is going to be different “this time”. Nothing ever is. It gets worse. if you let it happen. I can’t be friends, I can’t be around the AC. I don’t want to see him in action, knowing I got sucked in, nor do I care to see his emotional harem.
It’s weird. I haven’t listened to my gut in so longer that sometimes I have to call my best friend or come post on BR in order to have someone else confirm that I’m not going mad (which goes to show how out of wack my life is — I think taking care of ME is weird). Help me, Jaysus! hahah 😛
They do tons of damage. Speaking of saying no mine actually said can’t you get use to the fact I just need to go in a “shell” sometimes. I said NOOOOO It is disrespectful and sickening behavior and I will never get use to or accept that. They are always sorry that they hurt you when they come back but I have come to think they know exactly what they are doing when they shut you out. They know the pain they cause and I now believe they get off on it!
Ha. My AC’s famous line was “I need to have alone time and am practicing celibacy right now to work on myself.” Really?? That ALWAYS means…I am screwing another woman or am about to land one! Can you believe the things they come up with?!?! And I’m still with the idiot. After reading all these posts…I believe it’s time I disengage and care about ME. I like that statement….if you truly wanted to be with me, he would be. Enough said!
Just once, if I wasn’t trying to be healthy, I’d like to say this to a man….’how about I just put you on ice while I go see what else is out there, when I’m done philandering or just get bored, I’ll come back to you’. Or don’t say it and just do it….Not. I remember when my ex husband and I were separated because he had an affair with a prostitute, a dating service called me because they were unable to reach him. I didn’t say anything to them except that we were separated but what I should have said was ‘do you really want to set up a man who is still married but his wife kicked him out because he had an affair with a hooker?’ Off topic but ladies beware, this was a service that people pay a lot of money to for matchmaking. It isn’t anymore quality than a dating website. As a matter of fact, with online dating you can do your own screening before you even waste time meeting the guy.
Mymble,
Why isn’t this guy blocked after all this time?
Allison
You are right, I don’t know why I have such a difficulty with that. I did block him a while ago, but felt anxious and unblocked him. Some part of me can’t accept it.
Valley Forge Lady- Sometime back I actually purchased a program off the internet on how to get your ex back. (I know, but I wasn’t a BR woman yet) What a joke that was. The things that it told you to do were insane and would lead to more of the same things you had when you were with them the first go round, not to mention you would essentially turn yourself into looking like a stalker and crazy woman. It went as far as saying how you could get him to leave her and come back to you.. blah blah… What? If he left you for her let her have him. She can deal with the problems of him. Now that I know what I know… why the hell would you want them back! A HELL of a lot would have had to change for it to work and as we all know that is highly unlikely to happen. I agree with your comment. No is No… its over.
Exactly Tammy, I would NEVER want my ex ACs back, what for? TO give myself more pain, disappointment and madness?! NO NO NO, I rather be single for the rest of my life:)
Amen..Little Star… Once they have shown you who they really are its time to hold the flush handle down 🙂
🙂
Tammy
What happens when you get your ex back, but his now-ex then tries to get him back from you?
There is a flaw in this system.
Well then, Grace, you will have to purchase the “How to Get Your Ex Back from His Ex-Ex After You Just Got Him Back from His Ex” progam for three easy installments of $49.95.
LOL and this great advice coming from a man who is probably a AC himself.
Too many Exes, it is making me dizzy.
Or you could simply accept an ex is an ex for a reason and spend the money on BR and a good massage?
hahahaha
Love this Revolution, I always appreciate a good laugh!
Grace and Evolution
You are both hilarious! I guess the two (or more) women just keep passing the program (and the guy!) back and forth until everyone is so dizzy they all pass out. These programs are an entire waste of money but before people find BR… most are very desparate and will do anything to get the AC back, because at that point they don’t know he’s an AC, or not yet ready to admit it. Save your money and your self esteem and just say NO! Thanks Nat for an excellent post. I think the best no IS NO CONTACT. No words needed. Maybe I will come up with a program of how NOT to purchase the “get your ex-back” program. No down payments, monthly payments, or installments! Only common sense required. Hahaha
Tammy, I was SO close to purchasing the same type of program lol. From what I saw without purchasing it, it pretty much told you to go against all that you feel and put on an act for your ex just to get him back…which totally goes against the BR community. I’m glad I googled the crap for stuff to stumble upon this beautiful community. Which has more substance and gives you more self worth than anything I have ever read.
Why the hell would we want these ACs back?! lol That program needs to be took off the market.
Yep, I remember trying some of the advice on the sites during the first “off” of the off and on cycle… ‘Oooh, staying in contact about “stuff” gives you the opportunity to stay on his mind, be his friend, etc., blah, blah…’ Horrible advice all the way around. Thank goodness I found BR in my search and learned that the last thing you want to do is continue to provide openings for an AC. It took me a while of rationalizing before I finally reached acceptance of NML’s wisdom and stopped trying to find loopholes but I am a believer now!
I always tell this story when this subject comes up but I sought out the ‘One Secret To Getting Him Back’ when an ex broke up with me years ago. It is as follows: apologise to him.
So I did. I apologised to him for his treating me appallingly and we got back together.
And then I was stuck in a dead-end relationship for another three years. Woot.
LisaLamb-
You are correct. Save your money. Also when we get some self esteem, (boundaries and NO’s required) we will never even consider these ‘get your ex back’ CRAP! But when theres money to be made off of the helpless, hopeless, sad cases (not really, but they think they are) you can expect to see this stuff all over the internet. Hopefully people keep searching in their time of need and end up finding BR and other places where true healing and change can occur within ourselves, not hoping to get them back so we will feel better. (for a minute.)
These programs make me really annoyed because they seem to prey on women who are in despair because they have recently been dumped. They suggest you have to change so much and allow the AC to get away with so much crap behavior. You have to ‘give him space’…so what if he doesn’t call you for weeks on end and leaves you hanging??? He needs his space…mmm, no. That’s just being an ass in my book. And remember: don’t nag. But my guess is what they consider ‘nagging’ is what the rest of us would call sticking up for ourselves.
I’ve read the free literature for many of these relationship gurus. They always seem the same. I go back to the Mars/Venus crap. Yes, I know men and women think differently, but so much of this ‘wisdom’ seems to allow men to do whatever the hell they want while we sit back and wait…and wait…and wait for them to behave and treat us appropriately. The advice never seems skewed towards the happiness of the woman, which is ironic considering many of these gurus are women.
I often wonder what the personal success rate is for these advice givers…I’ll bet many of them are single.
They do prey on women in despair!! These programs should be titled “How to go back to relationship insanity” This is exactly what they are encouraging.
Sadly, there are even renown researchers that back up this crap with studies; thankfully, there are sane anti-voices too that point out the fault in the conduction of said studies, and the fact that there is nothing that is more like a male brain than the female brain. Two of the sane voices:
Teddie I agree! I have enough male friends to know that I have lots in common with them and some have been my friends since childhood. Many men get in the same situation as us with loving and giving too much in a relationship and putting up with bs they should never put up with. Another fallacy is women don’t like sports. I am a sports fanatic and I am the one that needs a good seat in the bar to see what is going on in a football game. Hell my ex got me back once tempting me with really great tickets to the baseball playoffs. Of course he said “let’s go as buddys” Yea right… My opinion is that some people of both sexes have issues and love drama, games etc. We either get sucked into that cycle with these disordered individuals or break free because we realize how destructive it is to our lives.
I guy said to me once, “Women are from Venus and men have a penis.” How charming. BTW, he oogled young girls in front of of me all the time. Listen closely and they will tell you who they are.
Absolutely Valley Forge Lady.
I have many many issues that I need to work on and BR and you womderful ladies are helping me with these issues but I have always (since I was 16) had strict “NO Ex’s ever” policy.
It’s like Grace commented in one of the previous post, “When you keep these men (AC, EUM and even the ones that said NO with decency) from your past around in the form of being their FBGs or “friends”, you are not making room for someone decent and worth the time in your life”.
So, I say “NO” every time they pop their weaselly head out of their pathetic holes and whack them firmly with my self-esteem mallet.
I say “NO” every time they pop their weaselly head out of their pathetic holes and whack them firmly with my self-esteem mallet.
They should put this in the “rules of dating” book!
Perfect! my MIL has a lot of problem receiving a NO, it has become a pain since my husband feels bad when we say no to her. I need to print this out and post it.
im usually always the yes person an the i’ll be here if u ever need me but u kno what nobody ever said ditto crystal i’m here for u too,,at this point i kno that i hav to chang i cant continue to mak myself available so here comes a whole lot of NO’S thanks for writing this u are showing me so much about me that i didnt see its time for me to get it 2gether…..a change is coming surely
Amen! I am ALWAYS there for my AC, but he never is for me. My youngest son was recently sent to prison and I have been devastated. My AC has NEVER asked me about him or how I am doing. When I asked him why, his response was “Because I care so much about you and it hurts me to talk about something that is causing you pain. But please know that I care.” Really?? I do everything for his kids. And he can’t even muster a “How are you doing? How is your son doing?”
Oh Nancy he sounds like a horror story. Please please get away from him!
He is a horror story…he has humiliated me so many times, I can’t count them all. Yet I still want the bad boy. Someone needs to kick my in the ass!
Ha We all like the bad boys because they make our heart race. Trouble is if we stay we will be asking for a heart attack. I understand all too well the still wanting them but keep reading BR, keep thinking of them as an awful addiction because most times when you go back to an unhealthy situation that is exactly why you are going back. Remember it is limerence, not love. Love is never this kind of pain so if you stick with NC you will finally see how this relationship is sucking the life out of you. You deserve better.
Nancy, I am going to put my stern face on.
I do not dispute that this “man” is a monster, a piece of shit who has treated you terribly.
However, you know this now. So, every time you engage with him, you are self harming. You cannot really blame him any more. You are doing this to yourself. When you focus on why you have allowed this, you will be on the path to stopping it. Your Shame Alarm (Nat trademark) will go off and it will be over. Yes it will still hurt and you will feel humililated that you took it for so long, but you will feel unburdened and liberated by the process of building up your self esteem.
I agree. My behavior is giving him permission to treat me as he does. Time to change my behavior, as his will never change.
That is right Nancy, his behaviour is none of yoru concern. His behaviour was the same before you came along, and will be the same with the next one, and the next, and in fact will probably get WORSE rather than better. So much better for Nancy to call it a day now. I know it is hard. Have you read Nats post on the Justifying Zone? I found this resonated as I stayed when I knew it was madness. That he was Seriously Not Right In The Head. All because I wanted to be right. To be validated. For it all not to have been a dreadful waste of my time and effort. But that is how we get caught up with these assholes for YEARS rather than months. All we are doing is prolonging and deepening our own damn pain. He will skip off without a backward glance. I fantasised about being able to change him. I even fantasised about being in his life just as a friend, but now that I am on the other side of the NC mountain I had to climb, I genuinely wouldn’t want that. I don’t want him. You can get this too Nancy but will only get the CLARITY necessary to make the changes once you have forced yourself to go totally NC for a good few months. I wish there were an easier way. Good luck.
Thanks, Victoria. It’s such a complicated mindfuck, if you don’t mind me saying. Just yesterday we went to a concert together and he was really, really enjoyable. That is when I tell myself “Sure, I can just be a friend.” But when the day comes to an end, I have a normal longing to talk to him or see him, but he disappears. And although the day was really, really fun with him, then I have to remember the off-handed remarks..the vulgar comments here and there, his lack of interest in what I have to say. When I look back on the day, we basically just talked in generalities, or about him…so once again I felt a bit empty. Yet again…I really enjoyed the day. It’s SO confusing.
Nancy,
My turn to chime in because I recognize some of the things you’re saying as things I said when I was in the thick of self sabotage. (sorry, not trying to be mean, I mean it with only very good but honest will) If a very enjoyable day with him consisted of off handed remarks, vulgar statements, and lack of interest in what you have to say then you have been surviving on crumbs for so long that having been rationed down to flour dust you feel like a few crumbs are a fancy meal. Nancy, I was in your position a couple of years ago so I do get how hard it is to just let him go. I got treated bad , real bad by a guy for four years. When he was nice once in a while I felt so relieved and the pain went away for a moment but it was like having my last meal before the execution, I couldn’t really ever enjoy it because I knew what was inevitable to follow. I stuck it out for so long because I was stuck in AVOIDANCE. I avoided the pain of letting go even though the pain I was in was probably worse. I grew to hate this guy but I couldn’t say my final goodbye for years….why? I lost perspective completely and I just needed him to be nice to me so I could feel normal (my warped version) but it rarely happened and I about lost myself completely. I became like a crack addict waiting for my next validation fix from him. From the outside it isn’t that complicated, he treats you bad and you continue to sign up for it. I know I did it. I’m not saying it’s easy but I think you know in your heart its time to let go but your afraid. Some pain is to follow any break up and you can’t avoid it but you have a happier life beyond it. As long as you engage with this guy there is no happier life around the corner, just more flour dust and emotional starvation. Be strong and do what’s right for you. This guy is on the last man on earth.
BTW, I see my mean abuser ex around town quite a bit now and feel NOTHING. no longer avoid him because I could care less. I forgive him and it now longer has any power over me. I used to think a break up would scar me for life. It didn’t. It actually taught me a lot about myself and how much strength I really did have underneath feeling temporarily helpless.
I love that “it was like having your last meal before the execution.” So true. This site truly helps me take time to question myself and my behavior. Thank you for your comments and understanding Selkie.
EXACTLY! Brilliantly put by Selkie. My experience was identical. We kid ourselves these guys are so special when in fact they are all the damn same. Something in particular that Natalie said that really helped me and may help you was this: “How much pain is it going to cost you to get your drop of happiness?”
Spot on selkie! You articulated this painfully familiar dynamic so well.
Nancy,
Dump this guy!!! My EUM, said to me when my son was in ICU for 5 days, hospital for 11 days, and he almost died, he ought to die, he used drugs in the past,Never once asked me how was he doing, do you want to go back home to see him, NOTHING… when my dog died, back in November, and I had just gotten off the phone from the vet telling her to put her down, it was 3am, he told me to leave because I was ignoring him, when he was asking me a question. I was so choked up I couldn’t talk, that’s why I didn’t answer his question. It doesn’t get better, it continues to get worse. Their world revolves around them, not you.
Going back to the topic of saying no. When I would say no, I’m not coming over, he would text all night, trying to make sure I didn’t do what I said I was staying home to do, or if I said no, dont’ come over he would end the relationship. It was so wearing, I didn’t give in, though I knew this was so unhealthy. I’m so grateful for everyone on this site. It has given me strength to say NO to the relationship. I hope you draw from all of our strength.
Nancy,
You know who this guy is, and that he doesn’t care. I don’t understand why you expect anything different!
He treats you terribly, but you allow it!
I’m sorry, but you are not a victim, as you keep on going back for more mistreatment.
I agree Valley Forge Lady. Trying to play mind tricks to get an ex back is simply manipulation and won’t work in the long run. I’ve done that before and rationalized that the ex or person who opted out just didnt realize how “great” I am and that I was simply misunderstood.
it is a little depressing, however, to be “checked out” often, but not actually asked out or pursued by anyone other than the occasional EUM. I can almost see how I fall into being manipulative trying to “get my ex back”. Sigh.
Great article. Very logical and thought provoking.
I’m a terrible one for saying “yes” to everything. Extra shifts at work, lending things when I need them, lending money that I could really use at the time. For a long time I would associate saying “No” with being a bad friend/family member/employee. Now I know that sometimes, for my own sake I need to put my foot down.
A wise person once told me that “By saying No, you say Yes to yourself”. It’s taken a while for me because of people pleasing tendencies and lack of boundaries, but the more I say “No” the better I feel. It takes practice, but it’s worth it. I’m worth it!
I was a very big “No Struggler” with everybody including guys, my daughter, friends, and at work for a plethora of reasons. I’m getting a bit better with enforcing my boundaries with guys as that has been my focus for a while. Lately, I’ve been trying with my daughter (23). This month she asked for a $400 advance on the next four months allowance for concert tics. I thought for about 15 minutes and then said no. I figure I cover most all her basic needs and educational expenses so if she wants extras, she can get a job. I expected some push back but she said okay. That was it. Natalie, if you don’t mind me sayin’, setting boundaries with your young daughters now is a critical stage for their well-being, let alone yours!
I’m getting the opportunity to learn to respect my boundaries with regards to friends as a former best girl friend has popped back up on the radar. It’s been only 48 hours and she’s the best boundary buster next to the exMM but so far I’ve been okay. One visit and one phone call. I didn’t pick up the repeated phone calls yesterday. It is like reteaching everybody, most importantly me, what to expect. I’m saying and sticking to no when it is appropriate. It takes me a bit more vigilance with my daughter and friends. However, it’s all the same boundaries.
Watch, just cos things happen in 3’s, the exMM will pop back up just to give me a run for my money. Slow and steady. Thank you Natalie. Boundaries are like the rules of the game.
Check you out, runner! You’re doing great! 🙂
Oh yeah…not so much. My former best girl friend changed her caller ID to “restricted” probably because I didn’t pick up the incessant phone calls yesterday. I picked up this morning because my dentist/drs have restricted numbers. It was her. Her former partner blocked her on facebook, won’t come and get her stuff. It’s like the total reset button but with a girl friend. Doesn’t matter that I was in the middle of work stuff and enjoying a sunny morning, it’s always on her terms and what and when she needs to vent. Engaging with her is bringing up all my old FBG/doormat stuff. Darn. It’s like a suck it and see with a girl friend. I want to have the “good times” without all the boundary busting crap. Looks like the universe is giving me another opportunity to enforce my boundaries and say NOOOOOO! I was a bit upset today realizing that she hasn’t changed. Then I realized there has been no reason for her to change. Just like when I used to entertain the exMM thinking maybe he’s changed. I have though. It may be NC for her again. Still struggling with NO!
Wow this is so interesting. Thank you, Runnergirl. I struggle with my older sister. She is my best friend in the world, someone who will be there for me no matter what, and who has saved me from more than one AC. And yet, she is a complete mess herself, and frequently busts my boundaries, needing to complain and complain and complain, sometimes upwards of 2 hours a day on the phone, 7 days a week. We fight because I get tired of this. But I don’t know what to do. I have tried millions of times to talk to her about it, but she has serious problems, and can’t help herself. She suffered from extreme anorexia for ten years, and has a serious anxiety disorder, but she can’t see it. Sometimes I refuse to talk to her, but then I both miss her and feel terrible. Sigh.
runnergirl,
I think the likelyhood is that since you had to go NC on her before she won`t be receptive, but you could always try saying in a very matter of fact way that you find her behaviour too much. Go on , be brave 🙂
I’m sorry to hear that she got through you on the phone. Can you screen all restricted calls? Surely someone like your dentist might leave a message, which you can immediately return? Either way, what a pain. My heart goes out to you.
I have also been in this situatio with some friends: I had one who really wanted to be able to call me during the work-day for emotional support. I had to tell her that even though I work in an unstructured environment, I couldn’t take her calls, unprompted, during the day. She had to text or e-mail me and ask if calling was ok. I would then set a time limit for our calls. That seemed to work, but then, she was only clueless, not a narcissist.
Snowboard, Sushi,and Amanda,
Funny you mention restricted calls and time limits, I didn’t pick up this morning so she changed her caller ID back. I remembered Natalie’s posts about a time limit on phone calls. I picked up this morning, when it was convenient for me, and watched the clock. After 10 mins, I said I had to go to class and this evening, I did the same, although she sounded shocked that I was going out.
Snowboard, I’d suggest a time limit. It worked for me today. I totally understand the 2 hour complaining phone calls 7 days a week. Your comment reinforced my memory. Even though she is going thru a break-up presently, it was always about some emergency crisis in her life and, actually they were breaking up for the last two years before I went NC. I’m sorry about your sister’s issues. It is draining and exhausting for the receiver. Thus, I guess, this is what Nat’s post is about…setting boundaries and saying no. Nat’s comment: “We must learn boundaries and limits and we must respect those of others and the truth is, if we’re not respecting our own boundaries, we’re not being as respectful of other people’s boundaries as we think. We’re not” really caught my attention and I’m still thinking about how it applies. Entertaining them whenever they want seems like an obvious boundary bust for me. How is that busting their boundaries?
I don’t know whether my friend is AC/EUM/Narc but I do know she is clueless. I’m better today knowing that I stuck to the time limit. I also said no when she wanted me to do her a favor. However, I said yes to another favor, which is just reading a doc. This is like BR 101 all over again!
Natalie, your last series of posts have come at the perfect time as the universe sent me some more “learning opportunities” with respect to boundaries and saying NO. I got a series of phone calls and messages this morning to call her as it was an emergency. I was in class and returned her call this afternoon. The emergency: The ex was picking up her stuff and she couldn’t talk but would call me later. Nope. I said I had plans and would pick up if I could, otherwise please leave a message. She was stunned. What if she needed to talk? I reiterated that I had plans and I would call her tomorrow. This is just going to end up with me having to go NC again. I’m not the doormat she used to know. Briefly,re-engaging with her has been a total eye-opening suck-it-and-see-and-who-the-eff- was-that-former-woman?
PS. My plans: Water my yard, go to the gym and the grocery store! Those were my plans and they count!
Runner,
This woman is using you as a sounding board. You are totally enabling! Time to give yourself some peace and cut contact.
I meant to say don’t enable her. Sorry. These people will suck the life out of you if you let them.
She will not change!
Thank you for the advice, Runnergirl. I agree that time limits are probably the best option.
I have written on here before about my struggle with OCD. “Reassurance seeking” is the most common compulsion held among OCD sufferers, and I used to need to do it *constantly constantly constantly* and would literally feel like my brain was on fire with anxiety if I couldn’t reach someone (my friends, my sister, my mom) to calm me down. Your friend sounds like a sufferer, and I believe my sister is as well.You are *definitely* enabling her disease if you allow her to talk endlessly about her worries, so as much as it hurts her, you will be helping her in the end.
Good luck with these very difficult struggles, and particularly with your daughter whom you clearly love so much. Take care.
This is so true being able to say no and sticking to it, being true to your boundaries and your own values no matter what happens.
I am truly getting to the place when I’m not seeking approval or validation and letting go of trying to control the outcome.
Not so long ago I was always saying yes when I felt no and couldn’t actually say that little word NO and mean it. Reading Nat’s posts on many subjects over and over again until I understand what it means has helped me so much, making me believe in myself and that what I want and need to make me happy is important and if no one else likes it – too bad, so sad. Let them own their own issues cause I’m not going to anymore.
Well said Paula and my thoughts exactly.
I travel alone on holidays and am often asked if I go the single meets. People are surprised when I say no and that is for the simple reason that many people at these meets on my holidays are elderly and some just want to air bag and dump all their baggage on anyone who will listen. Plus there are some who become dependent on a younger fitter person who is worldly wise and they make themselves your responsibility if you let them. So my answer is no as I have worked my butt off for my holiday and it is my holiday and no-one else’s. People will only get access to my time on a holiday if I invite them to and they aren’t likely to leech on me. That may sound selfish but I don’t expect anyone else on a holiday to take responsibility for me and wouldn’t dream of air bagging a stranger either. I respect other people’s holidays and the fact that they may have worked as hard as me to afford it.
Am so glad I read this Feisty! I am off on holiday on my own this year and probably would have fallen straight into that trap. Note to self: “No single meets.” I have travelled solo a lot and lived abroad on my own but not for a long time. I am exactly the sort of person an older or less exoerienced traveller would latch onto, and then of course I would feel guilty for trying to shake them off. Cheers again. God BR is so damn useful!
Victorious you could always hang around in the vicinity with a book to see who is going to the meet and make that decision but even people your own age can latch on. I did this once on one of my holidays and thought no as it was mainly elderly widows as they predominate on cruises being solo travellers. Even if I am sitting minding my own business and someone (male or female) tries to latch on to me in a bar it will be no if during conversation I get flags. Enjoy your holiday.
You mean the reason I say yes to the 2 Mama Burgers for 5$ and Starbucks chocolate cinnamon loaf (though in the US, you guys have that lovely berry loaf at your Starbucks …), when I know I have less mood swings, more energy, better skin and am lighter when I say no to crappy food, could be that I’m also not saying no in some other area of my life?
I will think on that!
Not being able to say no to sugary, high-fat food ranks right up there as one of the top things that I … well, I was going to say that I hate about myself. Hmm.
I’ve always just thought about it as an addiction issue, i.e. reaching for the quick fix, comfort full-feeling or sugar-high, to numb out when stressed. But I was really confused to watch myself binge this past month, because I thought changing my diet would be easy to stick to especially when I was seeing the benefits and overall was supposed to lead to feeling less stressed. I didn’t think I was in any more stress or any lower self-esteem than usual, so I was really bummed to not just be able to change my diet as a simple step toward feeling even better.
It never occurred to me that the change itself would add the “new” stress of me actively setting positive limits on myself and that I might still have a problem with THAT. Again, that failure to follow my own new rules, this super-rebellion against myself, really bummed me out!
Hmm, I’ve reread and maybe I’ve gone off in another direction but the idea that perhaps there is a different area that I need to say no in is one I’ll think about.
I’ll also spend time repeating: “if we’re not respecting our own boundaries, we’re not being as respectful of other people’s boundaries as we think. We’re not.”
I really do want to change my diet and at the same time I really don’t; when I hear myself thinking, “I don’t think I can,” I know it’s the same feeling as when I might have written, “I don’t know if I can resist if he calls me, etc.” Thing is, I never have felt quite as crap after hanging out with a chocolate loaf as I did with the AC.
But this yo-yoing of trying and the shame spiral is getting worse each time I try, so maybe I’ll hit some kind of bottom and finally, somehow, mean it. I really really wish it could just magically happen.
Mag, I promise that the one time that you say NO…even if to a chocolate chip cookie right out of the oven…you will be glad you did. Then the decision to say NO becomes “easier” each time. Start small. Then when the time comes to say NO to something really big…like when the X calls and says “can we meet, just for coffee” you can say “ummm, NO, that just doesnt work for me. goodbye”. Hang in there. Love yourself enough to make healthy choices…in food, in your time, in your lifestyle, etc.
There is a theory that willpower is like a muscle. If you’re not in the habit of using it, then you can’t expect to be able to lift 100 lb weights (i.e. Give up smoking, junk food, AC, and take up rigorous exercise all in one go). But it also means that it is a muscle which can be built up and strengthened with use and practice.
Cakes/junkfood/sweets haven’t been an issue for a long time now, I don’t have a habit and don’t even really think about them. I plan to get to that point with the AC and certain other unhealthy behaviours in due course.
Tinks
Yep, that other blog is sickening along with another one out there that pretty much states that if we stand up for ourselves like real adults, we are heartless, overly picky b@#$%es that don’t deserve a man. And yep, if the breakup was due to lack of shared values, massive personality/lifestyle clashes, it ought to stay broken. To the men on this blog: do men really want mindless doormats?
I heartily agree, Miskwa. Everyone (male and female) wants to be around kind, loving people. But it’s when it crosses into “doormat” territory is where the problem lies. People don’t understand (and those bloggers don’t WANT to understand–after all, they’re CASHING IN ON THIS CRAP) that there is a BALANCE between being kind and open to other people and giving them control over your essential being. Any healthy man OR woman, I’d imagine, would want someone who is balanced between the two extremes.
Hey Miskwa. Do you know who I’m referring to, R.R.? Older, thin, blonde curly hair? If you’re in the States, I’m sure you do.
Hey Tink. I know who you’re talking about. In the dark, desperate days I signed up for her emails and I couldn’t believe some of the downright crazy, lame brained bullshit they contained. In the end I read them just for the much needed comedy. I mean, who the fuck would take that shit seriously?
What about that other “relationship guru” (male, with initials CC) that says the goal of all women should be pretzeling themselves into “cool girls”. Your guy doesn’t want to talk to you, instead wants to watch sport 24/7? Get him a beer every ad break! And while you’re at it, a cheeky blowjob wouldn’t go astray! If you’re “cool” enough, you might just GET that guy! As long as you make it all about him and continue to have zero expectations of getting any of your needs met at all. Hey, BE COOL, BITCHES.
If I ever meet that “relationship guru” I am going to kick him in the nuts for being so unrelentingly retarded. WTF?
Hey, Ms.D! Glad you interjected. I know him, also. He’s another one of those clowns. There are so many of them now, as if it’s the “In” thing to aspire to, rake in loads of dough from desperate females. It’s shameful exploitation. I made the mistake of ordering one R.R’s CD’s and when I had buyer’s regret I had to go through fire and brimstone to try and return it, so it sits unused. Waste of money I need. Last ass I’ll mention, Steve Harvey. How in tarnation can he possibly consider himself a relationship guru? On what qualifications, knowing his past with women. He even has the nerve to write a book? Such rubbish. Okay, I sounded off about that crap, and feel better. LOL!
Speaking as someone who has managed to be this amazing “cool girl” cos I actually was THAT desperate to Hold Onto My Man, I can tell you that all it brings you is lower self esteem, and more footprints on your back. It really taught him a thing or two though. That he could treat me with less and less care and attention and I would just try harder and harder to please him. Oh Happy Days!
Victorious, I identify with that so strongly my brain just exploded. I know, right? You literally get to a point where you are so pretzelled out of your fucking mind that even if you had done yoga 24/7 since birth, you couldn’t contort a sigle hair any further. Every. Last. One. of your own needs has been annihilated in favour of doing whatever shitty crap the dude wants, or that you think will finally get the cockhead’s attention so he gets with the fucking program. I found myself wondering “What can I give now? I literally have nothing left.” I found myself actually trying to INVENT things in my brain to give him that I didn’t have, just so that I had something to put in he slot that would surely, finally make the “decent guy” coins fall out.
These days it’s the same but different. But now when I think about him, I LITERALLY HAVE NO FUCKS TO GIVE.
Ms.D. Every word a gem! One day, and yes, I am dying of embarrassment as I write this, I actually sat there and watched his paint dry. We only saw each other once a week as a 2.5 hour trip each way. He said he had to paint his front door so I sat there and watched him. With a big smile on my face. Uncomplaining. Thinking about what I could do next to please him so he might turn back into That Guy From The Beginning. He really must have wondered what the hell happened when I suddenly went from Chief Adoring Cheerleader to NC. Really I owe my “recovery” to Natalie and all you wonderful ladies. Still a work in progress though….
I got a good dose of this at work, saying no to things means I don’t get taken advantage of. I had to learn that the hard way, being a team player is not always a good thing even though they say they want you to be. Sometimes it’s better to be disliked than to be trampled on.
This article also applies to men who have unresolved issues in their lives because all they do is emotionally screw themselves up even more and possibly a woman as well. I am all for taking time out to sort your baggage and then making sure you don’t get air bagged, or messed up by a man who always has the lifeboat lined up so he doesn’t get his feet wet. I am astute when it comes to people (always have been) and can spot these men a mile off now, thanks to Nat’s posts because I know to say no and also how to read signals and if a man is offended it is tough. I am allergic to bullshit but also am on the page that I’d rather be single and happy than settle for any relationship just to have a man in my life. I don’t need a man in my life to define who I am as a person or a woman. Too many people are afraid to be on their own and don’t address previous baggage then wonder why they keep messing up their lives or having the same relationship patterns and sadly there is always someone willing to give these men and women the chance. I won’t date a man who is only separated or who hasn’t been divorced for a year. Based on my experience no-one is in any fit state emotionally to include a new partner/romance within these time frames when going through a separation or divorce. Men going through that often end up in a rebound relationship then move on or just want a woman any woman to validate themselves. I have a female friend who is dating again 7 months after a traumatic marriage breakdown before she is even divorced and know that before she married she moved from one man to the next and hasn’t addressed her baggage. In time she will crash land as I suspect she wants to feel validated as he husband was a serial cheater. More fool the men she dates willing to risk getting burned by her baggage.
OUCH,this is me – just out of divorce from long term marriage to high school sweetheart. It’s all i’ve known and being alone is lonely (but necessary).
I attract EU women and we are together for all the wrong reasons. I give them orgasms and they give me validation.
Im getting there. no more harem, just with one woman for now
Roberto,I hope you are with this woman for the right reasons and not because you are afraid to be alone. From what you have said you are a baggage ridden man who I wouldn’t give the time of day to. Please accept this advice in the best possible way. I suggest you take some time out and sort out your baggage/life, find you, decide what you want in life and from a woman/relationship. That way you will select a better partner and have a better chance of a fulfilling relationship. Above all be honest with women and if you only want FWB then say so and they can make a decision. Too many men bullshit about wanting a relationship when all they want is FWB casual sex or a one night stand. Nothing pisses women off more than men who say one thing when they mean/intend another. Have essential qualities you are looking for in a woman and make that your reason for being with a woman nothing else.
During my 20 year marriage I always thought that the problems in our marriage were my X’s addiction to porn. His failure to understand how it made me feel cheap and filthy when he made me participate. I went along with his fantasies just to make him happy despite how it made me feel. I mean, my gosh, we have three daughters…his justification “its a multi billion dollar industry that EVERYONE does” and my retort “well, if it’s such a money making profitable business why don’t we get our daughters into it so they can become millionaires”…he didn’t get my point.
So, anyway…after I left him. I finally realized that his bad decisions were not MY problem. MY problem was my inability to say NO. Stand up for myself and MY values as a woman. The shock at my leaving him wore off pretty quick, followed by the anger (He asked me why didn’t I tell him how I really felt) and the No contact I had (I didn’t want to fall prey to his spell) and then the slap in my face realization that it was MY fault. My lack of setting boundaries that I was really scared of. Wow. He can be a sleezy porn star but unless he has a participant in his bed then it would be kinda boring.
Dee, You make excellent points! I think a big motivator is fear of losing everything, being alone, whatever…
My issues were different in my r/s, including I did not want to give up our physical r/s because it was the best part! LOL I think for myself, I turned into a doormat because I did not want to risk losing him in my life and whatever we had. So, I bit my tongue and went along more often than I should have and started to accept crumbs – until I couldn’t anymore. Like you, I regret accepting the unacceptable and thereby teaching him it was OK to act as he did for way too long.
Dee.. I will NEVER allow someone to do something that I do not want to do again. As you said : His failure to understand how it made me feel cheap and filthy when he made me participate. They dont care how it makes you feel. All they care about is how it makes them feel. EWEEE. I am sure there are plenty of avail women that WANT to be there playmate.So let them go find one & leave us alone!!
No is probably my favorite non-curse word. Maybe I use it too much sometimes. 😐 But it usually saves me lots of trouble, instead of bringing trouble to me.
Natalie,
Great article. Spot on, as always. My first word was “No” and my second word was “Cookie.” Which pretty much sums up the pattern of my life from then on. I was taught to say no early in life, otherwise I would’ve been railroaded by siblings, family, and schoolmates. It was only in my “adult” years that I’ve been guilted into saying “Yes” more and more. But I’ve re-learned that lesson, don’t worry.
Bottom line: No one who TRULY loves and cares about you would WANT to make you extremely uncomfortable if that’s what saying “Yes” to them meant. I, for one, would NEVER want someone I love to do anything against their own conscience and/or hurt themselves by saying “Yes” to me. I wouldn’t even ask something of them that would require that in the first place. People, let’s set our bar a little higher with picking friends and significant others. HEALTHY PEOPLE WHO HAVE YOUR BEST INTERESTS AT HEART WON’T ASK YOU TO COMPROMISE YOUR ESSENTIAL NATURE BY SAYING “YES” TO THEM. Seriously, is it that complicated? (Talking to myself too, yo.)
Wise words Revolution.
I have a friend who asked me to do some work for her, after I said I couldn’t as I was in my final term in college, and then she laid the ‘you owe me’ card on me in a subtle way.
Now, there is no denying I worked for her last summer, but I worked damn hard, on something she needed doing, and I thought it was mutual benefit.
She has often done things for me and not accepted no for an answer, though I have never asked her for anything or made out like I needed help.
It just feels like there’s been a balance sheet that I didn’t know about that I’ve just been made aware of, and at the worst possible time – and by saying Yes to her, I am jeopardizing my degree but feel selfish/bad if I say No, as she clearly does need help.
I always felt uncomfortable accepting what she offered, and I should trusted those instincts and stuck to the No’s then. Good lesson on honesty for me:)
Thank you for a great post Natalie; for, this is exactly where I am at right now:
I’m starting to say YES to who I really am, and what I really want, and I’m slowly and steadily beginning to say NO to the things that I don’t want.
For me, I can see that, sure, I’m still waffling, but I’m trying to approach this as a process…, despite the struggle that it is….
I’m in a great deal of mental pain and confusion right now, and the anxiety,…. the resistance is a real b%tch, but I identified separation anxiety yesterday, as I felt it after telling my son NO, and I lived to journey another day, as I feel some peace in not de-selfing…I don’t feel angry about it because I was true to myself, and I don’t feel guilty…hmmm….
The hardest thing for me is continuing to stand up for myself, and dealing with the pressure, stress, and anxiety that comes with having to make the right choices and decisions while learning new skills and ‘ways’ of dealing with things…placing limits on myself,…standing up to MYSELF…practising what I preach…calling myself on my OWN integrity, and where is my OWN character in some of these situations? …when sometimes I just want to go hide in the status quo or relax into the “quick fix” or instant gratification, and the pull from myself is soooo strong sometimes, and other times it just sneaks up on me in an instant, and I realize that I am not doing what I said I was going to do , or I have lost focus, and then I wonder why can’t I do what I said I was going to do? Why can’t I stick to it? Why did I quit? stop practicing? give up?
(How did this damn doughnut get in my mouth? And, I said I wasn’t going to try and f4ck with him because he has a girlfriend, so why am I flirting in the first place? Why did I take it there? And would you please just get your damn resume done, so you can get the f$ck out of this job? Make a decsion about school Sugarland. Why did you just tell that person yes, don’t you remember you said you weren’t going to do ‘that’ any more. So, are you just going to do these things when you are in isolation, or when you are talking-talk-talk-talk, or are you going to be able to do them when you are in the moment?-action-action-action)
(And, when will I learn to target the right problem because sometimes the real issue or problem was staring me in the face, and I feel like I was working around it, only to discover that oh that is the problem I need to really work on…ughhh, but ok, I get that that is a part of solving the problems, and YES, I am grateful for the self-awareness…but still, I’m just sayin’ it ‘kind of’ sucks sometimes….)
And, now I wonder, will I stick to it this time, or will I ‘revert back’?
I want permanent change.
Yes, I think I need to take a look at what NO means to me.
However, the light that I see is in the anger that I feel, as I explore it, I am starting to really see where I am de-selfing, and I’m beginning to listen to myself as I start to get that on the other side of this is that ME that I thought that I had to go searching for…damn it she has been here all along, …angry and unhappy…lonely and SELF-defeated, trying to get my attention, but yet does she want to do the work to get the f*ck out of here?
Am I leaving? Or am I staying?
Yes, I think I need to spend more time clarifying what my boundaries are and what my true values are…. I really get that I need to start thinking more before I act–slowing my roll is working, and man it sure takes a great deal of patience, sometimes I find myself dealing with life one moment at a time.
It feels as if I have to push a huge pile of stuff to one side, and take one small piece of whatever out of the pile and say, ok, let me deal with this first–hey, I think I just discovered ‘baby steps’ (funny, that term always used to annoy me, and now, I find so much comfort in it and much deep breathing.)
And, I’m going to try what you suggested about validating it again. I think I get that. I can’t expect to change over night, I get it, and I’m getting that I have to show up for myself every moment that I am thinking about doing something that I don’t really want to do, but that I am tempted to do for whatever reason or feeling.
I want the personal clarity that comes with standing up for ME.
Thank you for everything you have given me Natalie and thanks BR Community–Sugarland
Sugarland. Your post has had a strong impact on me. I don’t know if it is my current mood, or the fact that I’m undergoing dramatic changes is MANY various aspects of my life, but I can relate to every line of what you have said. Powerful stuff. I feel as though I could have said all of it myself, had I possessed the ability to put it all on this blog as you have so eloquently done. Never before has it occurred to me that saying, “No”, the idea of it, could bring up so many issues in not only my own but in anyone’s life. It is DEEP. Thank you for everything you’ve said. I shall now go into reflection on your words as I view they pertain to me. Yours in the struggle for self realization, mental clarity and strength. Wishing you every success, Tink.
@Tinkerbell
(((Hugs)))
Back at you Tink *smiling*: “Yours in the struggle for self- realization, mental clarity and strength.”
Wishing you love, peace, and happiness–Sugarland
Sugarland,
Your words struck me as profound. I too believe sometimes it is moment by moment. I moved 1,000 miles away from family, for the Ex EUM, but also it was a way of saying no to my past lifestyle and yes to a lifestyle that was pretty selfish compared to my past. I am not with grandkids all weekend,babysitting was expected, like I didn’t have a life. I don’t have private clients that took up my evenings, and I am not supporting one of my adult children everytime they get jammed up, one way or another. SO I have finally said yes, to my life, and without the EUM I am finding I really like it. So now, I take it step by step. I am not wanting to rush into another relationship. Coming out here because of him was really a blessing in disguise. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want him back or anything like it again. I am deciding about buying a home, and staying put. Thank you for all you wrote. It gives me strength to keep moving forward!
Dang, this applies to me. I don’t say no when they want sex. I barely know them, i don’t even know if i like them, but i am seeking approval/validation so i give them sex because i want them to like me.
I have to re-read this few more times. Thanks for linking to other articles regarding:
Negative associations
Mix up disappointment and rejection
And I really like your little section where I fill in the blanks to your statement/paragraph. Those little mental exercises help me understand the point of the article. Kinda like DUH… now i get it.
Hard part is putting this knowledge to practice in real life situations.
This new woman (girl4) is coming to my place almost every night. I am her booty call and because i don’t say no, im not getting enough sleep and neglecting alot of items my to do list.
For a long time I could not orgasm with anyone but my xwife, but now i was finally able to orgasm with this new woman.
Been 3 months since divorce was final so i’m still EUM 🙁
… and i am now monogamous with this woman. No longer being with any of the previous girls 1-3
I found this definition of EU from an old article:
These are men that are extremely self absorbed and are incapable of sharing anything of themselves emotionally.
I don’t think that’s me. I share all myself emotionally.
I think im just not over my ex wife
EUM If you are not over your ex that will definitely make you somewhat EU. It makes everyone EU. I was very upfront with anyone I dated after my ex that I was in no frame of mind to embark on a serious relationship. I didn’t want to hurt anyone so I thought it was fair to spell it out. My current bf was so patient and understanding with me and accepted that it would be friends first. I almost messed it up numerous times by getting sidetracked by my ex who pursued me throughout especially when he realized I was really moving on this time. He must have read one of those “how to get your ex back” books because he convinced me to be friends which was damaging to my new relationship. Thank God I realized what a Narc he was post break up. The relationship with my new guy moved like molasses but my new guy hung in there and I am glad he did. 🙂
Roberto,
Not over ex-wife = emotionally unavailable. EU is not a curse, nor is it a permanent branding. I’m EU at the moment too. Selkie’s advice is spot on: sort out yourself before perusing any future romantic relationships. I hope you don’t mind my saying so, but you seem a bit preoccupied with sex. We don’t need other people to have an orgasm. We do need other people to enjoy a real relationship–we can live without sex, but we can’t live without love. I’m reminded of a C.S. Lewis quote: “Every knock on the door of a brothel is a man looking for God.” I would ask yourself what kind of void you’re trying to fill or what you are avoiding by pursuing these sexual relationships. The answer doesn’t need to be spiritual. For me, I know I need to work on loving myself before I have anything to offer someone else.
Roberto- The fact that you found this site and you are reading what EU is all about is a great start. Many men would never admit to that. That being said, I agree with the others’ advice, take some time to get over your ex. Process what happened in the relationship. Forgive her for any hurts she may have caused and most importantly forgive yourself. This is critical for healing your heart. You’re looking for sex for validation when you need to be looking for “you”. YOU BE your own validation. Take the time… there are no short cuts. Hugs.
EUM Roberto,
Why not try being single for a while? It sounds like you never took any time alone to get firmly on your feet after your divorce. It seems you have wandered from one drama to the next wondering how you got there. Slow down and gather yourself, fly solo and figure out the loose ends in your life and heart first before you try any relationship arrangement with someone even if it is just for sex. You can’t fix issues by adding more on top of them, that is more like avoiding them instead.
Think about your self esteem Roberto. Yes you are the rooster in the hen house for now but sex with any number of woman isn’t going to address what you need to address. In fact you are in avoidance mode like many men typically are. Maybe you are EU anyway? As a woman I wouldn’t want to take up with a man who has just shagged his way out of a previous relationship. Many men don’t want a women who is freely available for sex (i.e. an easy lay) with any man just because he has a penis and a pulse. The same applies with me where men are concerned, as if he has been round the block a lot then it is a big no. My sexual health is very important to me and I’d rather remain celibate than get infected with a STI. You may meet a woman you really like and want to progress a relationship with but if you’ve had a large number of women she may well say no to you. Think on it.
Good advice feisty That is why I insisted on a friendship only basis. I know once sex comes into the picture emotions fly on both sides and I didn’t want to deal with that. I’m not into casual sex either and I am scared to death of STD’s. I don’t judge anyone who is but it is just not for me. One of my tricks for getting turned off about my ex Narc is thinking about how many women he has been with post break up. It is like taking a cold shower!
There is a name for men who are playing the field only looking for a ride (sex) and that is jockeys. As for the women they hit on for sex and leave, well they are mares i.e. they get ridden! Players get a big NO from me. Yes some women get duped by these jockeys if they are dishonest but many don’t and they know exactly what the game is about. If people want to have casual sex then fine but in the UK the largest rise in STIs is in the over 50/60 age groups.I’d respect a man more who has kept it in his pants while single and been selective about his partners and had sex within relationships but preferably longer term relationships. Likewise I’d hope that a man would respect me for not putting it about and if he doesn’t then well he gets kicked to the kerb. That is why I will date and not rush into anything. My body is mine and it is only when I am ready that a man gets to be intimate with it. The thought that some men who have been single for years have clocked up dozens of conquests makes me shudder and I’m not a prude. Why would any woman in her right mind want to tame a player? Err NO not for me.
I recently had a hard time saying “no” to a guy who had expressed interest. In fact, in general I have a hard time saying no to guys (unless they are overtly creepy and obnoxious). I’m so afraid of hurting someone’s feelings or missing out on something, that “maybe” comes out when a definite “no” would be in order. I think it’s because I take “no” so personally when other people say it to me. I make their No’s about my self-worth, and I just assume that they do the same with my No’s. I’m actually afraid of running in to this guy again for fear that it will be incredibly uncomfortable and that he’ll be angry. But who do I think I am, really? I don’t have that type of power. I’m not that special, and neither are they. “No” is my right, just as it is theirs. I don’t have to make it about my self-worth. It’s just a struggle sometimes.
I really needed to read this today. I have been struggling with a decision that has already been made and this shines a light on WHY I’m feeling guilt, sadness, & shame over something I did not ask for nor cause to happen. I never put it together that I don’t say No because of my own negative reactions to No. What a great moment to realize this!
Also, I am starting to think about my habit of using sex as a tool to gain approval and how much that has backfired in my life. The last time I refused my Ex, I had a full on panic attack. I had a panic attack because I said No! An epiphany that finally makes sense after reading this.
Thanks as always, Natalie.
I have had to think about this and try to work out why I can say no without even thinking, in a work situation, find it hard in friends/family situation, and am practically boundary less in romantic situations.
I have decided to blame my mother!
My mother is a martyr. Actually she is Grand Empress Poobah of all martyrs. She will say yes to everything and anyone, and then of course she can moan and moan and moan about it afterwards to anyone who will listen. Oh, poor me, I HAD TO babysit my grandchildren all weekend because…when in fact it was SHE who suggested it, she wasn’t even asked. I won’t go on, you get the drift. I learnt from her that you don’t say no. That this is unnacceptable behaviour. If anyone ever said no to her, she practically fell into a dead faint. Not kidding.
I am not a martyr but I have struggled to say no and then felt a bit sorry for myself, or, quite often I have said yes to things and then backed out later, which must really piss people off more than if I had just said no to begin with.
Since finding BR I have said No far more often and it is working really well for me. Lots more work to be done though. Thanks Natalie for all your wonderful insight.
I am definitely a sucker for saying yes to my kids and family. I think everyone struggles with this because we love them so much and we equate yes with making them happy. I am getting better too. Sometimes it is rough to face but even your kids and your family can take advantage of your good nature.
Wow Victorious my mom is the exact same way!! I’ve been on BR a bit over a year now, and am just about done with Mr. Unavailalbe and the FAllback Girl, and it’s taught me so much about my interactions with my parents as well as men, and the connections. I’ve begun to enforce boundaries with my parents (AND i live with them right now) which just WASNT done in my family if you didn’t want to be put down, scolded, shamed, etc. I’ve felt at times that i’m being cruel to my mom, but I have to remember that as long as i’m up front and honest while remaining respectful to her, it’s going to be ok and regardless of her reaction, i can know i made the right choice for me. When I disagree with her, or try to perhaps give her a different way of looking at something, I”m not being mean, i’m living as me for a change!! She is the QUEEN of the silent treatment/martyr/look on her face guilt trip. If you express to her what she perceives as negativity towards her…yes even after doing things for me that i never asked her to do and then expects a grand parade in her honor…oh boy do you just feel like you want to crawl in a hole and beg her forgiveness. Sorry for the rant, but it’s a process and i’m working on enforcing my boundaries with her.
I hear you NCC. My mums sister has told me my mother has ALWAYS been like this. She also triangulates and manipulates so if anyone has the temerity to stand up to her you feel like the outcast. Last time I stood up to her she faked cancer. Not for the first time. She CANNOT be challenged. It is not permissible. No wonder I am so effed up!! Anyway, although I accept how my parents have shaped me, it really isn’t cool to blame them on an ongoing basis as I have to understand their influence and then make the necessary changes and do the work on myself that needs to be done.
I took the plunge and began my studies at a new university today. It was a getting to know you day and I got through it relatively unscathed, but when I got home I sobbed my heart out. My research was discussed and he was, of course, mentioned several times. It has taken everything I have not to contact him using all this as an excuse. I was literally in a battle with myself, but I didn’t give in and it was no, no, no all the way. I will not undermine this decision, I don’t want to experience any more pain. I’m sticking to no because I want and need to change this, but I wish it didn’t hurt so much. One day at a time.
Lilly It will get better and better. I still get those moments where I want to tell him something as a friend. I don’t know that it will ever go away completely but I can tell you it is so much better especially since I ended the “friendship” bs which went on way too long. Every time you talk to them it sets you back. I was NC months and then had to tell him off in Jan cause of his off the wall behavior with me refusing to acknowledge his holiday greetings. It initially felt good to tell him off once again but it set me back. Not to square one but I have rough moments now that I wasn’t having before the Christmas fiasco.
Beth d, this is truly unbelievably painful. This may not make sense, but I feel like I’m saying goodbye to my baby all over again. I might think it at times, but I truly have no intention of ever speaking to him again. It’s enough to know that I couldn’t handle any more cruel stuff so I will stay away. I will keep on trusting the process of NC and trust that it will as you’ve experienced get better. I apologize for always being tearful on here. I am thinking of others who are also in pain. Good luck beth and there will come a time when we’ll feel ok again.
Lilly My heart breaks for you. You have been through alot but you will get through this! It is truly like another death and there is a grieving process. It hurts like a mfer! My biggest regret in the entire relationship was letting him talk me into being friends. One thing I remember my sister telling me is to just let him have his way and do the friendship with him because NC is too painful for you both. It wasn’t good advice. He was fine with it because he still had me at some level and he acquired a harem for sex. It was a disaster for me. It totally prevented me from moving on, I almost blew my new relationship and the worst thing that happened was I had to grieve the loss of him over and over again. The friendship would get too painful and I would eventually go back to NC because of the pain. Please hang in there girl. I promise you it does get better and I pray sooner rather than later for you. xo
Lilly, keep remembering that your baby will always be with you and that he would definitely NOT want you to be hurt by this terrible man ever again. When you are tempted to break NC, hold onto the fact that every moment you stay NC is a moment you are honoring your son. Even the pain you are willing to bear in order to do this is a tribute to your son.
Great to hear about the new university Lilly. Swear to god and BR, I went through the same thing with the exMM when we first “broke-up”. We had worked on so many projects together, he always came up in meetings and convos and folks appreciated our work. Over the last two years even though he still comes up, it feels different. It doesn’t hurt as much, although there’s still a little twitch. Stick with NO and NC Lilly. It will change.
Off topic, but I dreamt I was watching television and a program was on with a panel of a lot of the baggage reclaim ladies. I saw very specific faces and heard the voices of several of you gals, what I imagine y’all to be! It was so real. Lol!
Lo J, I´m certain I´ve also had dreams about y´all. I remember a particular one in which we were all learning to fly, going up towards the ceiling together. Very funny!
Was I hot?
We all were of course. And so coiffed and articulate. And we all had our respective accents. It really was a cute dream. Have no idea who said what or did what but there we were on this panel… Lol! And we were happy!
I guess I wasn’t there. I saw y’all on TV. But y’all were beautiful. And I would have been too. 🙂
Hi,
I definitely need to read this post over and over. No has always been difficult for me to say, and difficult for me to hear. I always felt dumb, wrong, rejected, unwanted and unimportant when I heard it, or whatever form “no” took or I perceived it to be.
Saying no brings about anxiety, fear, and worry for me, as does anticipating and hearing it. After reading this post I thought of an odd situation that took place at my old job. We had a new receptionist and she was very open with everyone on every level. Very friendly, but she made some people uncomfortable with some of the information she would share, some stuff very personal that you don’t necessarily share at work, and if you do, you usually want to get to know someone first and know your audience. She and I were about the same age, so we kind of right away hit it off. She was very pretty, sweet, likeable, and I suppose she represented to me the opposite of how I saw myself. I wanted her to like me as well. I happened to live across the street from our office. She would take lunch break naps in her car. One day she asked me, “can I go to your apartment on my lunch break and nap there?” All at once I felt uncomfortable, but at the exact same time I didn’t really have a HUGE problem with it. But I also thought, “what will other people at work think if I say yes? Is this TOO strange of a request, is it crossing a work boundary that could get me in trouble? Is it crossing one of my personal boundaries, and if not, WHY not? This IS a little strange. What about me is wrong here that I would let her do this?” These thoughts all rolled around in my head and my gut feelings were there, but I still said, “Sure that’s fine.” This girl had never even been to my apt., could I trust her in my HOME by herself for crying out loud? I was all at once uncomfortable with saying no to her fearing she wouldn’t think I was nice or easy going, and at the same time very worried that people at work would think it was inappropriate of me to have said Yes!!! I still feel so weak minded and at constant odds with myself. In complete honesty, I really didn’t have a huge problem with it per se, but I started to wonder if I had a problem with the fact that I didn’t have a problem with it! UGH! Constant second guessing! Anyway, we were sort of friends at work, and I am a trusting person and seem to believe most people don’t have ill intentions. But I also knew I didn’t really want anyone to know about it. After the fact, a few people I worked with, including the CEO and his WIFE, asked me about the incident, as my co-worker must have said something to other people. My other co-workers kind of came at me in a “I can’t believe she asked you that, it was way over the top, and you were nice enough to let her do it!” attitude. Everyone assumed that I wanted to say no but I didn’t because…you guessed it, they saw me as a people pleaser. The CEO and his wife had apparently even talked about it at home, because the wife said to me, “as we were talking about it, he [CEO] said well NCC could have said no to her.” Right there, I felt stupid. Like yeah, why didn’t I say NO?? But the wife’s reply was to him, “yes but she shouldn’t have been put in that situation in the first place.” I felt very two-faced and inauthentic to not back myself up. I kind of just replied, “ya…it was all around weird.” If I really didn’t have a problem with it, I should have stood up for myself, and not in a way thrown the girl under the bus, in a sense. I didn’t comment to others about her, I just feel like I was so caught in my usual, “who do I need to please” vs. “how do I feel about this” scenario. Looking back, I wish I could have responded in a way that acknowledged that I was ok with it for the most part on a basic level, but for the time being, this is a work environment and it’s just a little too “odd” and I’m not comfortable with how others would react or see it in terms of professionalism. We can hang out outside of work, but this just doesn’t feel ok right now. But why didn’t I do that? Because I would have felt awkward around her, like god forbid I have boundaries and then she wouldn’t like me. But that’s the assumption I’m making, I didn’t give her that choice. And what BR talks about so much, if enforcing my boundaries means people then don’t like me, I don’t want to be liked by these people! That’s also how I feel around men and constantly get myself into bad situations.
Any perspectives on this always much appreciated! ? Thanks!
I have a strange relationship with the word NO.
I remember as a teenager saying NO most days to my step father who constantly asked me for sex.
I got the one time in band camp stories, the sad face, the reasons why I should change mind,
the inappropriate touching, but I felt bad saying no which is so bizzare because of course NO was my only option.
But when it came to my two relationships with ACs I had no ability at all to say NO which of course meant no boundaries being a doormat etc.
AC number one:
want to borrow money? yes (never paid back of course)
want to use my car anytime you like? yes (don’t worry if I need it)
want to live with me rent free? yes
want to travel overseas with me on my money? yes
want me to go to work and earn all the money while you sit round? yes
want to give people money oh you don’t have any want to give them mine? yes
want me to go away for weekends so you can be alone because you are in need of a break from me and sure what your actions will be if I don’t go ? yes
want to treat me like crap? yes
want me to be a doormat? yes
AC number two
Want a whole ‘relationship’ on your terms? yes
I cannot even express what this has cost me my inability to say no to him across six years.
There will be a sadness always in my life about something I didn’t say no to.
I hope I don’t have to learn anymore hard lessons because of my inability to say no in relationships.
Other areas of my life seem okay and I don’t have issues hearing no.
correction AC number two asked if I wanted the whole ‘relationship’ on his terms. to which I replied yes
I said ‘no’ to myself today. It will sound like a small thing but to me it wasn’t. I drove past the ‘friends’ house, the one I’ve been suspecred used me & has turned out to power play me, leaving me feeling in a ‘one down’ position. I recall driving past last week too, (1st time after I got news of the wonderful offer of weekly food help) & in an excited, happy mood, ALMOST called to see if she was home & up to me popping in for a cup of tea. I didn’t though, as I hadn’t had contact for a while & had been very much pulling back myself. Something in my gut told me to just keep driving last week, so I did.
Then, a few days later there was the awful boundary busting incident after she bailed me up in the supermarket to give me a vood voucher. I’m so pissed off, that as I drove past her place today, even though I have no other friends nearby, I was resolute. Nope, did not even consider contacting her or dropping in. I feel much better for it too, even if this means being totally alone in my time of need ie illness making impossible for me to travel to seek old friends elsewhere.
Lilly, big hugs for you & well done!! THAT’S our Steel Magnolia!!
Otherwise, just reflecting, apart from when I was in a compromised position as a homeless kid, & got mixed up with those two awful pedophiles, I’ve never had too much of an issue saing no. In fact, I reckon I came out of the womb screaming it!
I notice it has only been an issue at times when I’m vulnerable due to something like illness say, as I have no family to help me. Hence, accepting the food voucher from my so called friend & not realising it was just a ploy to for her to (again) afterwards bust my boundaries.
Feeling a bit annoyed with myself that I fell for that. Silly me has this crazy notion that acts of seeming kindness are actually simply that! Who knew?!! Grr.
I would add that when ex deaceased AC asked for $ (bloody large sums too!) thankfully, I said NO!
When he treated me like CRAP I also confronted him & said NO! (Hence long periods of NC finally succeeding at this for good)
When my job tried to eff me over, I tried to play the game at first (not realising how bad they were) before again, I decided my health was more important & said NO.
When my sis has treated me badly I’ve confronted her directly & let her stew in her ensuing hissy fit (again showing her, NO your manipulation just wont wash with me).
What I feel a tad down about is when on earth will I get a.freakin break where someone or something good comes into my life so I can say YES.
THAT’S what I’d really like as it’s awful being stuck in no-where land, especially knowing some ppl are sticking the knife in behind yr back while yr down for the count.
I don’t give a rats about those ppl but it’s awful when.they pollute your social circles implying something is ‘wrong with you’.
Due to being a private person I don’t feel the need to justify myself to strangers, non-friends, or even aquaintences but sometimes I want to SCREAM, I’m GENUINELY ILL YOU EFFWITTS & YOU KNOW WHAT, THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU TOO, SO GET OFF YR BLOODY HIGH HORSES.
Instead I quietly seethe.
Also, I must say I’m not sure seething is great for my health either, so I do try to focus on the positives, however, I was thinking today that’s a bloody big ask of someone in my position with virtually no support IRL other than that which is being provided by professionals & some phone contact with a few friends who are so far away I hardly ever see them. I’m grateful for the professional support but very aware I’m ‘just a job’ to them. I honestly feel like I’m battling a lack of basic care, concern & love in my life. Of course I focus on giving this to myself but when there’s no-one to reflect it back, esp at a time such as this, with no family support either after a while things become quite depressing.
Suffice to say that IF I live through this, (as I sometimes worry it will all get too much & that I might not – although I know that’s just the depression playing tricks on me), I will NOT stay silent about what I have experienced. People may not like hearing it but turning away from people in times of genuine illness, esp when that person, like me, has done so much to help others over the years is very uncool. And anyone who starts feeling guity consciences once I’m well enough to speak up can just damned well stew in it (as I will be speaking about how I feel publicly in support group settings). Treat ppl badly & they dare to call you on it so you now you feel shit? Tough titties sunshine! Go tell someone who cares, cuz I sure as hell WON’T!
Finally, I do realise these people’s behaviour is about THEM & NOT me. This is what I hate about being ill. These people who hang around support groups are so bloody self obsessed. Most of my friends are from the real world ie work friends, hobby friends, old muso friends & the like. Now I’m I can no longer participate in those circles & all I’m left with is crawling to these support groups thinking my goodness, is this IT? And yes, that IS it ie all there is in my life right now.
Sorry for having a dummy spit folks. St Teresa Teachable is just.mighty frustrated & feeling very thwarted today. Grr.
Tomorrow night, hook or by crook, I’m saying NO more of this & FORCING myself OUT to a local muso night. I wont know anyone as I don’t know ppl on this side of town, but I played there once ages ago & they were totally stoked to have a chick who can really play AND sing on board. I prolly wont play due to circumstances here but the time has come. Sick or not. No more of living my life in this horrible isolation!
Regarding the phone call thing, my family was so without boundaries, my mother was such a people pleaser to,I remember when I was a child, she used the bathroom on the floor because she couldn’t get off the phone… She could not say no to her friend. She swore me to secrecy. Other peoples feelings and comfort were more important. I remember a friend who set boundaries with me as far as the phone went… I’d call and shed say, I don’t have a long time to talk, so I’d get to the point or if was just for a chat, I’d ask her to call back. It was strange for boundariless me, but I got it. And when she called, she’d ask, do you have a moment? And respected my t time, not taking offense if I didn’t. Sometimes people do need to be taught just because they are clueless. And they appreciate it. I did.
Beth d, Sadder but Wiser and Teach,
This is an uphill battle. I spent most of today angry then tearful then angry again. I want him to hurt the same as me. I’ve been rereading Natalie’s posts and books, and reminding myself of all the cruel things he ever said and did. It all helps.I’m holding on by the skin of my teeth, but I am holding on. I do not want to be a “colleague with benefits”. I don’t want to be used or abused. I will NOT reach out to that cruel man ever again. Sadder, I’ve printed out your comment and placed it on the front of my journal. If anything will make me stick with NC it is this. Thank you.
Lilly I also feel angry and sometimes tearful at how I let myslef be treated by the ex AC. Most of the time I’m doing fine with NC and keeping busy, but sometimes when I’m spending (another!) evening alone I do feel rejected, as if I’ve been thrown on the scrapheap by the AC, without a backward glance. I met him at a work meeting last week and he was his usual charming self. Everyone thinks he’s wonderful. He’s still flitting from woman to woman – the latest is being treated to trips away and expensive meals – something he never did with me. I finally realised, after several failed attempts at NC over 2 years, that I was nothing more than a backup plan and standby. I know to stick to NC,except when I can’t avoid him for work, but I feel very sad about what happened. It meant something to me but clearly not to the AC. I feel angry but strangely helpless and sad because I can’t undo what happened (it was great in his ‘hot’ phase) and also because he never even said sorry for being such a lying cheating user. When I saw him at the meeting he treated me like an old platonic friend. Two years just wiped out from his mind. It’s as if we never had a relationship – maybe in his mind we didn’t. I know the issues are with him and not me, but I still feel ‘not good enough’ and it does hurt.
Shattered – It’s the worst feeling and there’s no getting around it for a while – you know the guy is scum, but yet you wonder why you aren’t “good enough” for him…nevermind that he doesn’t deserve someone like you in the first place. These men like to gravitate to fresh victims. Sometimes although they won’t admit it to US, they feel guilty when it’s apparent they have been treating someone like dirt. It destroys the image they have of themselves of not being a bad guy, so they must move on to someone they can play the role with afresh, and don’t forget he could also be interested in her for shady reasons. It’s a killer when a man just blithely moves onto someone else and seemingly is into/in love with her straightaway when you barely warrented a phone call or basic respect! This has happened to me too. Just remember, it is HIGHLY unlikely he has changed one bit. That takes too much introspection and committment for these guys. He may showboat more for her, but at his core best believe he’s still a cockroach with no integrity, and you made a lucky escape.
shattered,
I’m sorry you are hurting and I can only imagine what it must be like seeing him with other women. In the early hours of this morning I was curled up in my bed literally aching with emotional pain. I started to reflect on what it was that I was actually feeling and came up with lots of descriptors including, sad, tearful, desperate, angry, disrespected, and the big one you mention that horrible feeling of rejection; one seething mass of negative emotions. It then crossed my mind that I must do something about all this. How can I make myself feel better? I decided to turn it all around. Who or what has actually been rejected here? It is actually us who have rejected them. In my case, and among other things, I have rejected his disrespect, his cruelty, and his callousness. What has he rejected? A woman who finally decided she has self-respect, a woman who finally started believing she is worth more than what was on offer, a woman who is capable of providing empathy, love, care and respect, but who has the nerve to want some back for herself. So he has rejected giving back. He has nothing to offer me, but more sadness, more abuse and more tears. I’m not going back. It is him that isn’t good enough for me not the other way around.
The same goes for you shattered. I know how much it hurts, it’s a huge blow to your self-esteem, but look at what you’ve rejected. I’m not sure of your whole experience, but it sounds like you rejected a player. You’ve rejected a person who is skilled at manipulating women by pretending to care about them for his own needs. A user and a taker. What has he rejected? A strong, loving, self-respecting woman who refuses to be treated as an option, a back-up and standby. A woman capable of genuine love and affection. His loss and, although it might not feel like it yet, your gain. This process hurts, but, we will get through it and we won’t settle for any of this crap in the future. When we look back they will just be the same and that simply isn’t good enough.
Sorry for the rambling I might try and get some sleep now!
Shattered
Blah to trips and expensive meals. My boyfriend and I don’t do that. We can’t afford it for one. Life can’t be one long trip and gourmet meal. Think of the indigestion.
It’s the daily stuff that really matters which, unless you stalk them and bug their homes, you can know nothing about.
Yes he’s having fun, the women are having fun, and then what? I’m sure some of them will end up here wondering what happened to their trips and meals.
I remember my father saying as he hovered over me, pressuring me, “But, what about all I do for you?” after I had told him no to babysitting. So abusive on his part. There are some people who will try and shake you upside down to get a yes out of you. It is our basic human right as adults to say NO and be heard. My ‘no’ muscle is getting stronger. At first it felt as though my skin was turning inside out. Now it’s much more natural. In my family women don’t say no. Until me. I’ve always been a rebel within the family, and have resisted a lot of the lunacy. But I didn’t know how to refine my righteous rebellion until BR. I had hit a brick wall.
If we followed every whim and impulse, we would be no wiser than the dog who chases a paper bag into oncoming traffic.
Teddie!
Thank you! I get real discouraged sifting through ‘all the men are inherently this way bs.’ My therapist, who is a very competent woman whom I respect and whom has helped me greatly, spews the most out dated and sexist ideas. It’s that ‘men are just that way, so shame on us women for placing too many expectations on them.’
Sm,
It is not always a good idea to be a team player. What if your team is nuts? As is the case with my family.
I have to keep remembering, I never once regretted saying no because it furthers my own best interests and I am being honest with them and with me! It is only the being overly accomodating that ever made me feel badly later. I am not a confrontational person, so saying and doing “No, I’m not putting up with this” isn’t necessarily easy at the time because I don’t want to cause conflict and I still may have hope that giving someone another chance will work out in my favor, but saying no or just refusing to play ball sure is its own reward later!!!
I really liked this post. I am learning to say no more often. Not long ago, I encouraged a fellow employee to stand up for herself and say “no” to extra shifts sometimes. I used to feel quite guilty when my supervisor would tell me (the hour before I was going to go home)that “someone called in and we need you to close in another department.” I truly didn’t get it that the other department was not “my job” and got guilted into working for them a LOT. Money is great, but you have a life outside work, or you should have. It’s a tough thing, creating boundaries at work, but the peace of mind is worth it!
Thank you for your replies. It makes a lot of sense and I know that I’ll get through this. I can’t help feeling that he got off scot free and just moved on without even a thought for me or how he’d used me when it suited him. It was a bitter experience and one I hope none of us will ever go through again. Onwards and upwards- although I guess I’ll always wonder what the point of it all was and why I allowed it to happen. I have to see him again next week for work and he’ll be his usual ‘Mr Wonderful’ to everyone. I’d never tell anyone how I was treated (I feel ashamed but it should be him who does!) but no one would believe it of him anyway. Typical AC – disappearing,’too busy to see me’, blowing hot,then cold, a harem of ‘friends’. They certainly know how to blindside and confuse.
My biggest struggles around “No” are in times of “I don’t know” (read “I don’t know myself” or I’m in a super-flaky state of mind), but also when I find myself projecting.
I get hung up on projection of my own experience with “No” so I go all conflict avoidant and go along with something or someone because I’m afraid of hurting their feelings, or making a mistake.
I have lost count how many relationships I’ve landed in because I felt bad saying “no” to a man who showed me attention. They weren’t horrible guys, they just weren’t relationship material. For the most part they were overly needy emotional vampires who wanted me to take care of them, but being incapable of providing the same sort of nurturing to me.
Because I could not turn them away – it just got me into a sadly inauthentic situation that was WORSE to extract myself from later.
I’ve become better at saying no to family who push my buttons (and boundaries), and to obvious “players” I run into a social meetups, but working through the projection stuff and learning to sit with “no thank you” when I’m not sure and/or really feel the “no” has continued to be a challenge for me.
This is why I come back and read BR every day. It’s that little clue-bell in my head that reminds me to keep me focused.
Hello All,
I am brand new to the BR world and I am so happy to have found you. I recognize so much of myself in just about every post and comment. I have long suffered from low self-esteem and confidence which has been further impacted by chronic depression. As there are many old posts that I would have liked to comment on, but no longer can, I wanted to see what the community’s thoughts were on my current situation.
Three weeks ago I broke up with what I have started to understand might be an EUM. He fit quite a few of the characteristics Natalie identified in past posts but he also acted as a “future faker” and was quick to label me as his gf. I was very weary from the start, having been burned by men in the past, and really wanted to take things slow but instead I went against my better judement and jumped into a relationship. The thing was he checked almost all of my boyfriend ‘boxes,’ smart, successful, handsome, fun, good family etc. so I kept chugging along hoping that all of those checked boxes would make up for the emotional disconnect I felt throught the relationship.
The worst thing for our situation was that I got pregnant right away and decided to have an abortion. The guilt and the emotions wrecked havoc on me and I became even more insecure in myself and the relationship as time went on. He did a rather lousy job of being sympathetic and comforting me both before and after the abortion, which hurt me even further as I felt alone in my pain. There were many signs that he was an EUM, but they seemed to begin to sprout up more as time went on, rather than in the beginning. I guess my conflict now, is that I am worried I made a mistake. I’m worried that the abortion, the emotional fallout and a few other isolated stressors casued me to focus only on the bad in the realtionship and ignore any possible good. Without even knowing about the ‘no contact rule” until just this week, I have been practicing it. However every day I begin to write a draft of a letter to him, which I so want to send. I suppose what I need, from people who understand, is to know if I have done the right thing (given the situation) and that nothing I can do will make hiom change (as I told him 1000 times throughtout the relationship that I needed more of an emotional connection, each time he said he was trying, but I felt the more I pushed the more he backed away.) Is no contact my best option? Please bear in mind that all of this has happened within 4 months so i have been living under a cloud for some time. I desperately need some kind of lessening of the pain.
Thanks new friends!
Ms. Jess,
So sorry for your pain and situation. Me personally, no I would not send the letter to him. Writing it for your own purging, self expression is fine, but I really wouldn’t give him any more of your time. Sounds like the whole relationship moved WAY too fast and that when the pregnancy came about, he acted an unadulturated ass. Please don’t second guess it now, it’s a done deal. As far as NC, I think this is your only option. He is not going to come through and you don’t need to go through any more emotionally. He showed you who he is and please believe him, he isn’t going to morph into Mr. Wonderful, I promise you that. Take time to heal yourself, your spirit. Reading BR will make you SO much stronger too. Welcome, you are among friends here. I wish you brighter days ahead and the strength to move on from this.
Wise ol’ owl,
Thank you for your words. I know that what you say is true. The bit I always get stuck on with assclowns is their ability to be so wreckless with our emotions. I couldn’t ever see myself future faking or leading someone on like that. Why say things so serious in nature before he even had the time to get to know me and determine if he could live up to them? Why didn’t he just cut bait and run? Why drag it out until I am so beside myself I have to be the one to end it. Not that I wish he had been the one. AT LEAST I was able to get some of my power back by being the breaker-uper lol. It’s all such a game. I’m getting awfully tired of playing.