Recently, BR reader Magnolia shared a lengthy quote on lying from which the first line stuck out for me“As soon as there is any kind of deception, stop everything.” (source: Boundaries in Dating) Experience has taught me and so many others, that when you’re eager to date at any cost, you don’t trust yourself, and you’re actually willing to participate in an unhealthy relationship, you don’t stop everything – you continue.
What this immediately communicates is that you’re very receptive to lies, which may shock you if you consider yourself to be a very honest person. It’s important to remember though, that honesty isn’t just about saying that you’re an honest person or believing you’re a beacon of goodness while hanging out with a shady crowd and putting yourself on an honesty pedestal.
Honesty involves being prepared to hear and say things that make you uncomfortable, with respect. It also includes respecting reality.
Lying and our acceptance of it from others is about our own moral compass and where we are on the scale of acceptance of reality. When we accept lies, on some level we recognise we’re telling a few porkies of our own.
A lie is a deliberately false statement.
There is a tendency for us to become preoccupied with ‘intention’ in relationships but if your relationship and any perceptions you have about it is based on illusions, fantasy, denial, excuses etc, the whole situation is founded on a mistaken impression.
Intention is all about acting with conscious purpose. We can always rationalise that it wasn’t our (or their) intention to lie or that we’ve even lied with ‘good intentions’, but sometimes that’s a lie too.
The reason why liars can convince is because they insert a smattering of truth to make the lie plausible.
When you’re receptive to a lie, it’s plausible because it makes your own illusions plausible. The smattering of truth may also only be true when it suits the context of your illusions.
Example: They tell you a lie about how busy they are, pressure yada yada yada as to why they’ve been unavailable.
They have been busy (possibly) although they may be busy doing someone else or living up their backside, but it’s not the reason why they’re treating you as they are. It’s plausible however, because some of the busyness may be real but also because accepting the lie means that the illusion that they care and that this relationship is going somewhere can continue.
Lies are like weeds – let one in, more will grow. Admittedly also similar with rats and cockroaches…
What would you do if you had started dating someone and discovered that they’d been lying to you? Would you stay? Or would you go? Just so you know, this is false representation. Now don’t get me wrong, I appreciate that sometimes people panic, feel nervous, insecure or whatever, however what you immediately learn, especially if it’s more than one lie, is that they lie when under pressure or fearing being out of control, and more importantly, they don’t seem to think you have a right to make choices under honest conditions.
If someone told you they were going to be and do certain things and it didn’t come to pass, what would you do? Hang around and act like a bailiff collecting on a fantasy debt? Or force your feet back into reality and opt out? Talking up a future to gain an advantage in the present is Future Faking. If they put some intense action behind it, it’s also Fast Forwarding.
What would you do if someone lied, ‘confessed’ to ‘all’ the lies, then later down the line you discover that there’s more lies? Would you wait for the next dripfeed? Or would you bounce them and exit back to reality?
If you don’t exit on immediate recognition of dripfeeding, it’s like giving someone the controls to your life to paint your reality for you and then they keep changing the ‘set’ with each new revelation.
If someone told you that they lied to you because you might not have gone out with them, or you’d have left, what would you do? Rationalise it and even feel flattered? Or feel duped and even violated? When you’re lied to, so that you’re prevented from making honest decisions, it’s obtaining goods by deception.
What would you do if someone said something to you that you recognised as being untrue? Would you recognise what this means, process it, and apply it into your action? Or would you play Columbo investigating the crap out of them or even worse, investigating yourself for reasons to blame you?
When someone says something to you that’s untrue and you know it, either because it’s all or partially untrue (that’s enough), this is mind f•ckery, especially if they deny it, which is gaslighting. It’s use of The Outrageous Principle. This relies on the recipient of the lie having their own issues with honesty – lack of self-esteem and self-trust means that you quickly offload what you know to be true, to accept their lie so that you can proceed.
They (the liar ) need to have an almost steely confidence and lack a moral code, empathy, or remorse unless…they suddenly need to take the high road for themselves.The lie is so blatant, you suddenly think maybe it’s not a lie especially if lying so callously is something you feel that you wouldn’t do. It’s either accept the lie and realise they’re dangerous, or…lie to yourself.
Now I could go in deep on this whole lying thing, but let’s stick with the topline data:
If you accept lies in your relationship that actually change the truth of what you can assume and expect about your relationship, you basically believe that there are good reasons to lie and to even be deceived. You may even see it as a sign of ‘love’ and them being so enamoured with you, they didn’t want to risk you being in reality….
It’s time to ask yourself the crucial question: How desperate are you? Particularly if it’s a new relationship (you’re in the discovery phase anyway), what kind of frickin’ potential are you seeing in someone who is getting to know you with lies? It’s a fast slide down a slippery slope – how many excuses and lies you’re willing to put up with directly correlates to how deep you’ll get into an unhealthy or even abusive relationship.
Lies are a stop, look, listen and do not proceed until fully rectified. And/or opt out. If it’s early in the relationship or there are other examples of boundary busting behaviour, do not fear pressing your flush handle.
Particularly after you recognise that one or both of you are lying and you don’t seek to immediately rectify the situation by reconciling the lie with the truth, taking responsibility, and moving into a position of honesty – one that respects the truth – it’s game over, no credits.
There’s nowhere to go because lies on top of lies on top of more lies and beyond, just digs you further into the ‘lie hole’. As it wasn’t nipped in the bud so that your relationship could be put onto a level footing, neither of you can truly trust in yourselves or the other that the truth is now ‘out there’ between you and that you’re not lying about about the fact that you’re now being honest, or even lying to yourselves. If you’ve ever been around someone who doesn’t have a realistic vision of themselves, they can actually be very convinced of their own lies so even if you decide to stick to facts, you’ll become surplus to requirements because you’re a reality check.
It’s better to start fresh and accept no lies from yourself or others – then you know exactly where you are.
Your thoughts? (Not porkies obviously…hehe)
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Gawd this is sadly my daughter’s dad… I don’t know what to ever believe with him because I lived through years of bull with him. Whenever he did something bad, there was a mountain of lies to cover it. Heck, everything he did was shady, deceptive and secretive… nothing has changed.
Example, in a drunken jealous state he punched out my car window and smashed my cell phone. The next day when he sobered up he claimed to not remember any of it, and we were supposed to go to visit his family (a 5 hour road trip) but had to go get my car towed etc… he told his family that my car had been broken into and my phone had been stolen. They asked me privately what really happened because they know him so well, and knew it was BS. (*Yes I know why on earth did I stay with a guy like that? Well I made excuses, it was the booze, he has baggage he is working on blah blahbity blah and that wasn’t the worst drunken episode. Or the worst lies.*)
So now that we aren’t together and never will be (thank the universe) I know he is probably doing the same thing – telling me endless BS.
One day a few months back out the blue (while dropping of my daughter) he just decides to start telling me how he dislocated his shoulder – again. I said, “Oh what did you do this time?” and he said it just happened when he rolled out of bed. Righttttt… so why was he telling me this story? I would have never known or cared that he dislocated his shoulder. The mere fact he was telling me, was the first sign it was a cover up of the true story. Or like him blurting out to me randomly on Christmas morning, after unwrapping the presents with our daughter, that he “didn’t have AIDS” – WHAT? I said well that’s good… what the heck do you say to that? What motive does he have to blurt that out? I shudder to think…
But on another note, I am reminded by this post why I gave up online dating. One of the last “online dates” I went on, the man arrived, and was clearly not the height he claimed, and I suspect not the age either. I was expecting someone taller than me not shorter. I asked him about it and he said, “Oh everyone lies when online dating.” That was it for me.
“One of the last “online dates” I went on, the man arrived, and was clearly not the height he claimed, and I suspect not the age either. I was expecting someone taller than me not shorter. I asked him about it and he said, “Oh everyone lies when online dating.” That was it for me”.
Me too, Barbara, with the height and the age thing (very old photograph used on the profile) and the total lack of remorse for lying about it. Had the old chestnut about being “separated from the wife but still having to live under the same roof as her” from one online date too. I don’t think the wife knew much about this “separation” judging by the text I later received in error. Not what you could call a great start to a prospective relationship, is it?
“When someone says something to you that’s untrue and you know it, either because it’s all or partially untrue (that’s enough), this is mind f•ckery, especially if they deny it, which is gaslighting.”
Excellent Nat, just excellent. (Plus, that picture made me snort-laugh!) My ex once made up a story about a relative being injured in a car accident to get out of seeing me. Once it became apparent that this was in fact a falsehood, I flushed him. About a month or so went by and I got a text saying, “I just wanted to say. I also wanted to know if you saw the obit and felt bad about what you said.” Now apparently, the faux-injured uncle had faux-died. At first I thought, “Heavens! It was true! I’m AWFUL.” Five seconds later, I came to my senses. As to how I would have seen an obituary for someone whose name I did not know, who lived in another state and who I didn’t actually know was (faux) deceased…I don’t know. I still cringe just a little that I “overlooked” this incident and ended up being fed more bs, but this is how I learned my lesson about the importance of the Bullshit Diet. Even though it came about in a cringe-inducing manner, I’ll always just be glad to have learned the lesson.
These guys always remind me of a George Costanza from Seinfeld and his famous line, “It’s not a lie if you believe it.”
Natasha,
This made me laugh and reminded me of the first boyfriend I ever had. This ex in particular lied and had a friend call me about him having a bad accident. I was unmoved. I found out the reason he lied was to get a “reaction” out of me to see if I CARED. Huh? He also lied about bullriding (to impress me he said, I was not impressed) and not cheating on me. He was an A33hole!!!
Another boyf lied about his drug use to me then blamed me for him doing drugs. He is still using today I imagine. I wonder if it’s still MY fault! An old friend once told me that I have poor taste in men. Maybe he was right. I’d like to think I’ve come along way but still hearing the “I’m busy” phrase can be a kick in the gut. It’s like when I asked the ex MM once if he read an email I’d sent him. He lied to my face and said no. He later confesssed he lied because he did not konw what to say at the moment. So I learned he lies to get out of uncomfortable spots. Nice.
Either I am still incredibly unavailable myself or I need to kick my taste in men up a notch.
Color, the bullriding thing made me choke on my tea! Of all things to lie about…bullriding?! The one with the drug problem is clearly an It’s Never My Fault Guy – some people will blame anything, and I do mean anything, on others to avoid taking responsibility for themselves. You were so right to flush all of them!
I totally hear you on “I’m busy” – my ex busted that one out after he had begged me to give him another shot and then committed various acts of assclownery and disappeared during the holidays. I mean, come on now. I think you are doing great and it would be plain old human to find “I’m busy” upsetting. I think we have both learned our lesson on raising our Dude Standards for sure!
Sorry for my ignorance – what on Earth is ‘gaslighting’?
“Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory and perception. It may simply be the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, or it could be the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim.”
An example might be…say if someone says something to you like ‘your an idiot’. Obviously you would be hurt by this remark and might mention it in a subsequent argument; ‘you called me an idiot the other day’…the ‘abuser’ might respond to this with ‘I never said such a thing’. It’s them basically distorting and/or denying you your own reality. Really messes you up and makes you question your sanity.
I hope this helps.
Wow these people are very dangerous.
Like the ones that hit, punch and slap you and then say ‘you did it yourself’.
or worse ‘I don’t remember that’.
Ugh!
Yep.
One of my exes had me once believing that I was completely ‘nuts’..’if you would just own up to the fact you are crazy..just own it and we will be okay’. Of course I am normal (even doctors have assessed me to be such). Some of these men need you to question your own perceptions, realities and experiences because you will not stay otherwise i.e. only a ‘crazy’ woman would put up with their sh3t.
i’m sure im always getting gaslighted!!
For example, the twit im seeing at the moment went out to play football game on sunday…. although he did say he’d see me that evening, when i questioned it he made ME feel like i was going mental! “i ALWAYS play with bob on a sunday”… he doesnt, but he swore blind he does and he wouldnt possibly tell me he was seeing me, not on a SUNDAY, when he ALWAYS plays and he DEFINITELY told me.
he didnt
i am not loopy!
xx
I have a journal and I record things in it. It give me a wonderful overview as things progress over time and I can look at patterns.
I can also see what happened when and reassure myself that yes, X really really did happen.
@Groundhog…Then DUMP the twit!! You’re on this site so you know better than to be a glutton for punishment.
You call him a “twit”…time to FLUSH.
Groundhog, leave him! Think of it this way: If someone can’t get their sh*t together to make a Sunday date, how the hell are they going to get their sh*t together to make a life with you?
If there’s one thing I’ve learned on BR, it’s that we all need to take a long-range view and realize that these things mean that a future with them is a non-starter/would suck should it come to pass. You are not loopy and you can do so much better!
Just as a “two cents worth” addition, the term “gaslighting” comes from an old movie of the same name – I’ve never seen it, however. In the story, a man stages all kinds of bizarre situations to make his wife thinks she’s going insane.
Gaslighting is probably one of the most horrific mental tortures a person can put you through. It goes way beyond garden-variety assclownery.
Indeed, the film is called “Gaslight”–and the gaslight itself has a role in the film.
Ingrid Bergman, Charles Boyer, Angela Lansbury, late ’30s-early ’40s. (Google it!)
GREAT FLICK!
what’s creepy is that people lie all the time. not all people. but liars. they lie, all the time.
even in general social interaction with fairly honest people, there’s lies. like even as basic as “how are ya? ” “I’m good.” (if they’re not).
“Obtaining goods by deception,” that is a good way of looking at it but isn’t that a criminal offence ?
It should be !
It certainly CAN be, Tanzanite!! Ever hear of a woman named Ana Margarita Martinez? She sued the government of Cuba for RAPE and WON because the man she married turned out to be a Cuban spy. She entered into a legally binding contract of marriage with him under false pretenses, and therefore successfully had the marriage annulled. (The story he told her was that he was an anti-Castro exile), and he used her as his cover.
SnoozieQZ.
That was a really interesting story and she deserved to win her case in my opinion.I think a while back you could sue a man if you were engaged to him and he failed to marry you.Not sure if it’s true though.
The people who have messed us around would probably argue they just fell out of love with us, but forgot to tell us and we are too embarrassed to admit we allowed it to happen.
Fraudsters is a good word to describe these people.
I think you’re right about that. If a man breaks off an engagement with you (or vice-versa) and you’ve already put money down on a wedding hall, dress, etc, you can sue him for breach of contract and he would be responsible for half of all the fees. There would have to be monetary damages though, so unless a home was purchased or wedding plans were set in motion, you probably wouldn’t win.
Yosh
You can exercise your judgment. It’s perfectly fine in my world to say that someone’s baby is beautiful when it looks like ET, that a bride’s wedding dress is gorgeous when you wouldn’t be seen dead in it (it’s her actual wedding day, you’re not helping her pick it out), it’s okay that your friend’s puppy chewed your shoes (no need to explain that they’re brand new). It’s acceptable and expected to say you’re fine when your boss asks how are you. No-one wants to hear about your period pain when you’re chatting in the lift.
Nat’s talking an entirely different thing .
Apart from stuff like that I certainly don’t lie all the time.
Haha grace all babies look like ET.
Wow. Excellent post. This is something I’ve been reading and thinking about a lot lately. While it’s easy to paint the liar as the bad guy, it’s that willingness to accept the lies that is the real devil. And in the end, the real problem is our self-deception.
I remember my earliest relationship: I was so desperate and so amazed that this guy was interested, that I overlooked EVERYTHING in the interests of having it continue somehow. I managed to twist every red flag into an excuse that would somehow make it okay.
Because I didn’t believe that I could do better and because deep down, I knew it would be over if I called him on his BS I just let it go one for as long as I could. Ironically, he then dumped me for being a doormat.
I don’t think he was lying intentionally, at least in most cases. He didn’t really know himself, or what he wanted, but he’d become a very good manipulator for gratifying the here and now. It seems that a lot of liars don’t really do it consciously: it’s just become a way of life for them and is as natural as breathing.
Christina
I fully agree that it’s the willingness to accept the lies that is the real devil. For me it’s been one of the hardest things to come to terms with – never mind twisting the red flags, I tore them down and wove them into a red carpet for him to use to walk all over me.
On one of the few occasions I called him on a lie, he just looked at me in disbelief and said ‘why on earth would I tell you the truth about that?! You would have hated me!’ – and I realized we were standing on opposite sides of a massive divide in values, where for him choosing truth or lies was not a matter of respect and integrity, but a currency to buy advantage or avoid the consequences of his actions.
blue skies
“…for him choosing truth or lies was not a matter of respect and integrity, but a currency to buy advantage…”
Very well put! That’s exactly what it is. It is astonishing really, but that is the way they see it – it’s a means to an end – it gets them good ‘purchase’. I think they assume we are all using the same currency. They do not expect you to be honest with them either.
Christina, the last part of your comment is so well put and speaks to my situation so well – the difference in values.
My EUM and I have always differed on what was the ‘right’ thing to do in our situation…my idea was for him to tell the truth (to his gf about cheating and not having his needs met ->supposedly<- in his relationship with her) and his idea was for him to keep lying to her so she wouldn't find out. Huge disconnect of values. Kind of hits me in the face when I think of it now.
Oh Nat! You are in my head again! It’s totally uncanny how I go through something and the very next thing, you are writing about it! And in such a positive and healing way, it reinforces the lesson and reminds me that I am simply human:) Thank you.
Lying for me is a deal breaker. Up there with cheating. I just went through this – the man I have been seeing for 2 1/2 years lied to me. I caught him out in it bigtime last Monday night and all he could do was shrug his shoulders and say “So what? I’m divorced! That’s the truth! That should count as something! Why should I tell you everything about myself? You shouldn’t be spying on me!”
Notice how he turns it back on me. I had confronted him with the fact that he had lied purposefully from the very start of our relationship and that I could no longer believe or trust him and that was it. I was leaving. And I did. It was hard, because I am emotionally attached. But he LIED to me! Not just a little white lie, but a whopping big one. And facebook is an open book, if your family doesn’t lock their secrets away. I wasn’t snooping, I was confirming what I had come to suspect – that all was not right.
He has phoned me and asked me why, as his friend, I am not speaking to him anymore….. I told him my friends don’t lie to me. He tried to turn it all around on me again by telling me I have lied to him. LOL!
I just can’t tolerate deception in any form. Having been abused and lied to most of my life by the people who were supposed to love and protect me had made me vulnerable to self deception and gullibility. NO more!
Lying, cheating, abuse – these are all deal breakers to me. I will never tolerate this behaviour again. What a liberating, wonderful feeling it is to stand in MY truth!
Thanks again Nat:)
He has phoned me and asked me why, as his friend, I am not speaking to him anymore….. I told him my friends don’t lie to me. He tried to turn it all around on me again by telling me I have lied to him. LOL!
Don’t you just love the warped and twisted logic (emotional maths?) of these people – almost as bad as fallback girl logic! It’s like, I lie because of you (wow, don’t they have their own brain?) or to benefit you (really now) or because you lied, and I lied they somehow cancel out, or because (and exaggerating here) even though I’m an assh*le, I give to charity so they cancel out.
LOL! Yes!
Marg – gotta love it!!
My AC insisted that we stay friends – I asked him why it was so important to him for us to be friends – his response “Don’t you want to surround yourself with good people?” I said I already do people who don’t lie to me or cheat on me”. FLUSH!!
After my first bewildering AC experience, where AC1 would lie looking me straight in the eye, I called up one of my old exes who had had “a flexible relationship with the truth” when I dated him but for some reason it hadn’t bothered me and it never seemed he was lying to me (but that was largely because I didn’t love him and was never interested in how he really felt).
My ex said he had often lied to me ‘just cause.’ Then he asked me, “Magnolia, you want to be lied to. Don’t you ever ask yourself why you want to hear lies?” (Okay, so this guy’s not the best source of wisdom in the first place, but I’ll tell the story anyway).
I was appalled that he’d think I’d want to hear lies. I couldn’t fathom what he meant. After some therapy, I concluded that the ‘lie’ was my unattractiveness and unpopularity, and that I had found guys who were like, “No one else will love you like I do [poor homely girl].” I believed that lie because, I figured, I believed I was a warthog.
I changed that opinion of myself but still attracted AC2. I heard AC2 lie to others and should have bailed then, but really, wasn’t the first lie that I thought he was a nice guy? (He showed his ass on the first date.) Or maybe the first lie was that this wealthy older man was whisking me off to the Caribbean for my mind and personality (ahem!). It was too good to be true and I still suspended disbelief because I wanted it to be true.
Now that this recent guy said an exaggerated thing about how attractive I am, I realize that his line is the kind of shit I used to eat up.
“Oh Magnolia, you’re so pretty it’s distracting” “Oh Magnolia, you’re so fascinating I just have to give you the keys to my house right now.” “Oh Magnolia, I can just tell you’re intimidating to most guys” “Oh Magnolia you’ve been done wrong; guys are jerks aren’t they? I’m not like that.”
I was totally transparent to any AC looking for my insecurities, and willing to hear any of this stuff, even if I knew it was too early to say stuff like that, or it was too exaggerated.
I’m not saying all compliments are lies. It’s more that I was looking for someone to tell me things I didn’t believe myself, and so found dudes who knew at some level I didn’t trust my own account of things. I attracted guys who wanted someone who trusted their truth over her own, and would eat up whatever they said.
Hey – I just found this gem from NML in one of the old posts – “When I became very clear about who I am and what I want, all this Amore Casper shite wouldn’t get past me because it didn’t feel real. Before, when I was trying to escape myself and my own life and hitch my wagon to a Mr Unavailable, these guys could tell me anything because I wanted something, anything. When you’re clear about what you want, people can’t come along and talk shit and not deliver. You’ll also think it’s weird when they say or do this stuff because it will seem false or fast, or both.”
THAT is exactly what I am talking about. It feels weird, and I don’t think it’s because I have low self-esteem. NML, you’ve been there!
My ex said he had often lied to me ‘just cause.’ Then he asked me, “Magnolia, you want to be lied to. Don’t you ever ask yourself why you want to hear lies?”
Spot on. We have special fallback reserved space in our brains that says ‘park fantasy and lies here’. If we tolerate lies, we give de facto acceptance to it.
Magnolia
I thought the AC I met was one of a kind, obviously not! The man always told my how beautiful I was and I believed him, not because I thought so myself but because HE was telling me I was.
I too was promised a trip to the Caribbean, in fact he told me we could go anywhere I wanted, he told me this when we were in bed together and about to have relations for the first time. Instead of looking at this as a red flag I got excited and thought I was the luckiest girl in the world! But like you said
“I was totally transparent to any AC looking for my insecurities, and willing to hear any of this stuff, even if I knew it was too early to say stuff like that, or it was too exaggerated”.
There were so many lies/fibs in such a small space of time that I couldn’t possibly list them all as everyone would get bored of reading them. But my light bulb finally switched on when he stood me up because I had asked him a few days before if we were still meeting up on Saturday and he said “yes, of course, as long as my sis doesn’t go into labour on that day” I thought BAM he has sowed the seed to stand me up. I called him on the day and he STILL said yes, meet me at 2pm. At 1:45 he texted me and said my sis has gone into labour and I have to take her to the hospital. I knew it! After that it was NC from him and me.
I was crushed because I didn’t realise how anyone could be so aggressive in such a passive and polite way.
Magnolia, Stephanie:
“I was totally transparent to any AC looking for my insecurities, and willing to hear any of this stuff, even if I knew it was too early to say stuff like that, or it was too exaggerated”.
It may not be that the AC’s saw something in you that would make you vulnerable to their BS. I think if they are full of it, that this is who they are in all aspects of their lives. I suspect that these guys just throw the BS out there and then watch to see what will stick! It’s then up to us to call it as it is rather than be taken in by it.
A
You have got a point, I’ve now come to learn that this AC has sold the same story to another woman some three years ago. Why would he change when he has tried and tested his BS loads of times on other unsuspecting women and it worked!
“I was totally transparent to any AC looking for my insecurities”
I think that we have ‘tells’ – you know like people who scratch their noses when they’re bluffing in poker? I reckon that FBs have those to let everyone know where their susceptibilities are.
One of mine is that I apologise all the time, for nothing or even things that aren’t my fault. It’s like a big beacon on my head screaming “Hey assclowns! You can pass ANYTHING off as my fault because I will always choose to take the blame over and above any confrontation”.
I also have a love/hate (usually hate) relationship with my mirror and I know that that’s been picked up on, but I’m not sure what it is or how I deal with it… it does worry me that I’m probably still displaying some secret signals out of habit, though. I don’t want to attract any more of these oddballs! And I CERTAINLY don’t want to be told “well… it was your personality that I was attracted to…” again.
I’d also like to put out there that the no-lying policy is the apparatus by which we figure out if people really do have the same values as us. Like if my date drinks 5 beers in two hours, and if when round six comes around, he says, “You don’t mind, do you?” and I say, “No, it’s fine” – then I’m lying. Heavy drinking is not cool with me. Now, I might not have the nerve to say, “No and I’m calling a cab right now,” but I might take action on my truth by not accepting further dates.
One area I find I often still lie to myself is how interesting I find particular guys. “You’re so fun to talk to,” they say. “Oh, you too,” I say. I often don’t mean it wholeheartedly, but if the guy likes me (or says the right thing – see above), I can manage to convince myself that he is fascinating.
How can we be Teflon to their lies when we lie to ourselves in this way? If when my date says, “Oh, I think there are some strong reasons for privatizing schools,” I just say, “Oh really? Tell me more!” (with the ‘that’s fascinating’ eyes), when privately I’m thinking, this guy’s a moron – well, I’m lying to both of us about what we ‘agree’ on philosophically. Which means I am lying to myself about putting shared values at the top of the compatibility criteria.
In any case, I don’t want to be lying to myself in any small way when I finally say to myself, “This guy is awesome. I want to try sticking it out with him.” And I don’t want to be lying to him at all when I tell him I think he’s awesome.
Oh, and of course, when said good person tells me I am awesome, it will match my realistic beliefs, not fill some crazy void that wants to suck up compliments from any potential asshat.
I am guilty of calling bullshit chocolate in many areas of my life and this post helps me realize that I’ve done so with the guys I’ve dated!
my last ‘real’ (aka not a married assclown) boyfriend was a liar. He would drive me crazy with these totally outrageous stories that were obviously made up, and what are you supposed to do, call him a liar to his face? I got rid of him, couldn’t stand it anymore. Where are the trustworthy men????? 🙁
I’ve heard lies from both my soon-to-be-ex-husband and the AC/MM that I mistakenly got involved with this past summer. It amazes me how easily they lied. As the saying goes, butter wouldn’t melt in their mouths. And they believed themselves, too. The MM future faked with me all the time, told me that if he ever had to end it with me, he would tell me in person (never did), blamed the demise of our relationship on the fact that I “killed the mood” one night, oh, and yes, said that he definitely saw a future with me — not now, but in less than 5 years. So, yes, I’m glad I’m not with either liar at this point, but it really bothers me that their lies don’t seem to bother THEM a bit. Although, as you said, neither one of them must have a moral code. I feel a bit uncertain about trusting and believing men in the future. I know there are good guys out there, but I also thought these two jerks were good guys, too. I hope I do better in the future.
Heartache Amy
I appreciate you are struggling to make sense of your life at this point and that we are all at different stages on our journey so I don’t mean to be brutal but I do think that an honest conversation with yourself wouldn’t hurt, especially when it come to this MM who future faked you – in between his outings to church and holy worship! Pfft.
The reality here is that as the OW you were unconcerned (as most OWs are, so you are no different) about him deceiving someone else (namely, his wife) while he was wooing you behind her back.
It is important I think to examine and assess our own values just as closely as we do his, and when this affair was in full fling your values and his were actually pretty well aligned (or else the affair could not have gotten off the ground).
That may be difficult for you, but it is the truth of the matter. We usually find that it’s only once the affair has ended that the MM’s lying becomes an issue for the OW and something that she then maligns him for, now that she has suddenly discovered, as if by magic, that he has been telling a load of porkies; the OW is typically and all of a sudden shocked and horrified by this “new” information about her MM: that she has been dealing with a liar and a cheat! – But he was evidently a liar and a cheat all along except that during the anticipation and excitement of the affair that wasn’t a problem for you. Truth be told, by the very nature of the thing, the OW facilitates and condones (and, it could be argued, encourages) his cheating and lying while she imagines (mistakenly) that she is (and will be) reaping and sharing the benefits of it. Yes harsh, but true?
Thats the reason I have not said too much about the MM s lies to me. He himself said at the beginning, that we would always be honest with one another. Even at the time I felt doubtful, but of course I didn’t challenge it. Towards the end it became apparent that he had been anything but, but I didn’t feel able to feel particularly indignant (though I was hurt.). It did help me take the decision to end it though. It’s too embarrassing to say what he lied about, they were the bogstandard MM stock in trade – didn’t love his wife, didn’t sleep with her, was going to leave when the kids were older. However when she actually started to get antsy – for some reason he never gave any credible explanation for (perhaps another OW, who knows) and threatened to divorce him he was completely stricken, panicking, terrified – it became clear he was staying for much more than the kids. And the not sleeping together .. Well. It turned out that he meant something quite different by “not sleeping together”. What he MEANT to say was “not quite as often as I would like” and
“sometimes she turns me down”.
Ugh. I feel disgusted writing it down, but it certainly does help in reducing any remaining feelings I have for him.
I got blamed for killing the mood too! Ha!
Can’t commit, won’t commit, not interested!
Lying can bring a relationship to its end without hope for recovery. My 12 year marriage is now ending because of the lies. These were all of a financial nature, estimating around $37,000 plus hiding and lying about debt and bills owed. The scary part is that it has taken me 4 years to finally believe that I am justified in seeking divorce. A good friend said it quite aptly, “He killed the marriage, you’re just placing the headstone.”
Gloria
I read something. It may have been on wayneandtamara.com (they give down to earth relationship advice)
“without trust you have nothing”
I thought it was a very harsh thing to say when I read it (years ago). But now that my life is filled with people I trust and who trust me, I believe it to be absolutely true.
You took the only option that was left to you.
Grace,
Thank you. It took me years to make a decision and at times I still have moments of wondering if I am doing the right thing. Having so many years invested and 3 beautiful children has made me wonder if leaving the relationship is the best thing to do or not. I must believe that I can still be an excellent mother to my children and give them the happiest, healthiest life possible, even without being married to their father. But it’s true; there has to be trust. Life throws enough at us without having to worry if someone in our own camp is trying to undermine us.
Hi Grace and Gloria,
I absolutely agree. Once you fully acknowledge and believe the truth – that they lie – to you – you stop believing anything at all and all respect and trust disappears in a instant.
There are enough decent people in the world without having to give liars the time of day. This will definitely be one of my golden rules in future. At least we learn something from these scumbags!
@ Gloria
Not only do I want someone to “have” my back, I don’t want someone who is suppose to have my back busy stabbing me in the back. Once trust is gone, everythings gone, I just have to make sure I exit with it!! LOL
I love this website. Gaslighting..lying is an assclowns “hallmark” After quite sometime I have cut off contact with an Assclown. Can you believe after 7 weeks he is sending me stupid assclown text messages…his latest is “you alive?” I cannot tell you the length at which these emotionally dead, psychopathic men will go to gain control of you. I see the texts which are usually sent at 1:30 am and just laugh to myself. I mean really? IF I don’t respond to you – What message are you Not Getting. These men are soo out of touch with reality – the lies are deplorable..and eventually whatever cheap thrill they used to provide FADES away – I recommend anyone who has been dealing with this type of person to CUT them OFF…you will be glad you did.
High five Max!
@Max, well done, honey! Keep flushing keep up the NC.
“Emotionally dead”… that really resonates with me when speaking of this type of man. This explains to me why it is pointless to continue to have these relationship defining talks for the 500th time. An emotionally dead person will never get, nothing left to do but act and move on
Mother of God why did it take you so long to wake up woman? He is obviously a pompous self centered arse who only cares about his own pleasure. I am willing to bet he has more women than you even already know about. He is a narcissistic assclown who only cares about a release any way he can get it!
“When you’re lied to, so that you’re prevented from making honest decisions, it’s obtaining goods by deception.” That really stood out to me! I have a co-worker who has told me, “I’m the realest person you’ll ever meet.” But she is very, very good at getting people to sign up for credit. She establishes rapport with them by sharing her personal stories, flattering them, and (as I heard her say lately) “they walk away not even knowing what they did.” Is she lying to them? No. But she just woos them into signing.
Now, getting people to sign for credit is a part of my job, too, but I am not as “good” as her, because I only offer the credit, and see if they want to sign up. After all, it’s only one part of my job, and I want people to feel happy with their decision.
Maybe I’m wrong, but this reminded me of the whole relationship dilemma for the undecided, like you said, if you are desperate to date, you’ll sign up for anything. No matter the “high interest rate!” I think when people tell us what we want to hear–and flatter us–it’s harder to resist temptation.
I know I fell into this category, listening to a guy flatter me, and then when he went cold, saying “what did I do to drive him away?” I discovered the interest rate was pretty big….
But I finally came to the realization: I was part of the deception, because I ignored the red flag behavior, and told myself it would work out fine. And I was so unavailable myself! I didn’t see it, then! It’s taken me a year to get here, but I am willing to accept and own my part of what went wrong.
Thanks for helping me to realize I need to date with a conscious mindset, and really look for men with similar values. And to listen, not assume.
This is a great post. Where I tend to get confused about lying is when people tell half lies or lies by omission. For example, when my ex broke up with me he revealed that he’d been having doubts about our relationship for months, at least half of our relationship, and he had never said a word to me that entire time. He argued that he couldn’t figure out what he felt for me or if he wanted to be with me so he didn’t say anything. Instead, he went along as though nothing had changed, telling me he loved me, he missed me, making plans with me. When I accused him of lying he got so offended, like how dare I accuse him of such a thing! But isn’t that a kind of lying?! He certainly didn’t tell me the truth. Am I crazy?!
Did we date the same guy? My EUM did it to me twice. The second time I was on to him quicker but it hardly softened the blow that this deception caused me…
It’s so good for me to keep revisiting this issue, because I have been a total justifier. I didn’t ever quite know how to deal with lies when I came across them so I’d justify and lie to myself instead.
The other thing I noticed about liars, is that they really don’t like to get called on it. They create major drama and/or turn the tables on me, and since I already have a low self esteem to begin with, and I am mortified, I become a prime candidate for lies.
Nowadays when I meet liars I don’t waste time giving them free therapy, telling them that I think they are liars, I just try to accept the data and walk away. One particular lie that always seems to come up is at the start of relationships. Guys would lie by omission or just blatantly (e.g. of an existing spouse or girlfriend or kids) and tell me its because they didn’t know me well enough to tell me the truth, and I would feel so bad that they couldn’t trust me enough to tell me the truth. It never occurred to me that a lie is a lie is a lie. If you say you’re single when you’re not IT’S A LIE!
“It’s better to start fresh and accept no lies from yourself or others – then you know exactly where you are.”
I’m really enjoying the frequent posts and images that pop up into the facebook feeds.
Sigh. There are many different flavours of bullsh*t!
So much is fuelled by fantasy. And I think there is something innate about the human condition that facilitates fantasising – hope, dreams, plans, social conditioning, desire, urges.
A helpful way of challenging myself and not wearing rose tinted lenses is to imagine a situation where there was perfect truth, on a first date with a stranger.
A person sits down across from you over dinner at a date. They lean over and say “I am a liar, if you get with me I will lie to you and then screw you around, flip flap like crazy etc” and then imagining this written down on a contract paper and them pushing it to you and asking for your signature. Now, would you sign?
I find it helpful to use my imagination in this way – to visualise these things as ‘deals’ or ‘contracts’ on paper. Knowing what the Relationship or even dating Terms and Conditions of Contract are at all times, and what the ‘topline’ title of the deed is, is very important.
Oh, I like that t_o_a, looking at what`s on offer -right now- without the hope it`ll get better or finding a good justifying reason to consider in order to continue. That`s accepting the reality of the now and signing up for that, avoids the self-future faking, the BS we feed ourselves. Using that clever method , would I have signed up for the majority of my ex relationships? No way.
As I type this, I can think of five men in the last 7 years who have dropped the line “I’m busy” on me. And I wonder why? I am the common theme here…….so why and how am I supposed to know why? It’s like things seem to go great then all of a sudden they’re busy. This is five different men, so either my picker is that broke that I would pick five crappy guys or I am doing something. Whatever it may be that causes a man to want to say he is busy.
I’m having trouble trusting my feelings on things. Even when something feels uncomfortable, I am finding I may still go along. Because I do not understand or know what to do with the feeling. I was taught that what I was seeing was not happening and that my feelings are false……….so in my adult world I struggle here. I doubt what I am feeling or seeing and so it is easy for me to be duped and go along hoping I’ll receive love.
I see that I am still trying to fix being neglected as a child in my present relationshps. It makes me sick. And I hear “you have to love yourself and grow your self-esteem” and I’m like “how!??!”
Colorange,
I relate so much. I was also worried all the time that what I do feel about stuff might be so off, that I`m a freak for wanting “too much” and that I have some odd problem of unreasonable expectations. I was afraid to have an opinion. That made me an easy prey for a variety of AC`s and EUm`s and unfortunately they reinforced this lack of self-worth in me to below zero. After reading on here and still feeling very shaky I decided that I have to just force myself and make myself think that whatever I feel about the next situation that comes along is ” sacred”. Regardless of consequences and whether I`m right or wrong. Making that decision felt really selfish, very scary and it was as comfortable as walking into oncoming traffic. My first experience was with a work relationship, there was drama, the person kicked and screamed as they loved me as a doormat, but I stood my ground believing that I`m right, with the sort of attitude that I`m doing this for the good of me – it all ended fine. I keep going and I feel like a different person now and sky is not falling in. I make some mistakes (it was a huge fear for me, spent my life trying not to make a mistake, which was a huge mistake), make good when possible and I feel stronger and not desperate anymore. Some of my friendships actually improved, some got switched to a lower setting, they are better being more distant and I depend on myself more now than on people who don`t really mean well. Maybe this will help you, trying out being “selfish”. Got to get over the fear of consequences, that was the worst bit.
coloro
Stop dating for a start because your picker is broken. Get counselling
And if you pick MMs, of course they’re busy.
The “I’m busy” line will never wash with me again! Ever.
I used to sit and wait for up to 2 weeks before HE decided it was time for us to meet up again. Any time I suggested we meet up, or have dinner, or whatever, he was always “having a hectic week” or he needed to spend time with his sisters, cousins, or friends. I just didn’t fit in anywhere, and to add insult I had never met any of his family so it made me resentful of them, they probably had no idea I even existed!
Colororange,
Try not to beat yourself up too much. Next time if a guy gives you the “I’m busy” excuse, you will know to walk away. Fine, people get busy, but that excuse without an explanation and suggestion of an alternate plan is just arrogant and inconsiderate.
A decent person who is not just blowing you off will say something like “Oh shoot, I’d love to see you tonight but I can’t because (insert legitimate appointment here), but would Thursday night work for you?” (This will be followed up with him making solid plans with you and actually showing up–on time).
Ah, you had to wear your invisibility cloak. I too was given that piece of clothing at the start of the relationship. It makes me sooooo mad. Grrrrrr!
The guy I was seeing for the last 2 months suddenly didn’t have time to meet up two weeks ago. He was “busy”. He even explained into detail why he couldn’t meet. Still tried to fit me in on Saturday eve, but it didn’t feel it was from his heart. After all I was the one who had suggested to meet again, not him. So I told him to just enjoy his weekend.
I know that everything he said was true. He did work that whole Saturday. And he did go mountainbiking on Sunday. But I do consider it as one big lie. Or an excuse for not having to say that he’s not into me after all. Why would a man – assuming he’s in love – choose MB’ing over being with the woman he doesn’t get to see that much?
It can be so complicated. Even telling the truth can be an excuse for not having to tell a real reason..
I didn’t learn yet though, two weeks ago. And we did keep in touch, for some strange reason. We still had nice talks.
Last weekend we got the chance to see eachother again. But he didn’t bring it up once.
So now I decided to go NC. I didn’t hear from him since last Wednesday. For no apparent reason. Did he cowardishly disappear on me? I might never know.
Stephanie..
This is a control issue with these types Of Men..
It is about “Their Time”,I know…
Mine could drop over when ever he felt like it,and I gladly accepted him in,Was thrilled he took the time out of his”Busy Day”to come see me…
But look out if I afforded him the same….I would get screamed at,at why I was dropping over,I got blamed for being no short of a stalker,Was untrusting,A phycho….
He is what he is…and that is a Sociopath….
They are destructive people,who I am sure take some sort of sick pleasure out of hurting woman…I’m not sure if they even realize that they are doing it?
You had said in a comment before,that yours really had not alot of LTR…
Well mine was 44 and had only one which was when he was 40,which lasted 4 years…What does that tell you??And I cant even begin to tell you what this Asshole did to her…
There are days when I wish I NEVER met him,and yet he is my ‘EPIPHANY’ relationship…
Its hard I know….
Brenda
colourorange
“And I hear “you have to love yourself and grow your self-esteem” and I’m like “how!??!”
Well, there is no magic wand, but there is actually an awful lot of good literature out there (and it’s been well covered too on BR) on how to raise one’s self esteem and build a positive relationship with ourselves.
Being honest with yourself and the choices you are making / refusing to acknowledge reality / avoiding denial etc. are good places to start.
For me the first step is to stay away from people/men who reject me and to stop rejecting/avoiding making those choices that are in my best interests. Love is a doing word, and that applies to self-love too. I don’t want to harp on about the MM thing – but being involved with these men involves deceit on all fronts – he lies and the OW lies to herself too in order to avoid the reality of the crap that it all actually is. Being an OW is self-sabotage at best, self-harming at worst (I’d go for the latter!)
We need to work on and culture an honest/no bullshit relationship with *ourselves* first and foremost, when we can do that I think we are less likely to stay with or persist with men who are inclined to towards deceitfulness in relationships – we would then have much less tolerance for it, if any at all.
I loved what Magnolia first posted that at the first sign of deception everything should stop. I think it’s spot on. We could all avoid an awful lot of pain if we lived by that rule. And that includes self-deception, and yes, I think we do know when we are bullshitting ourselves.
Fantasy *IS* lies! Lying to ourselves!
Fearless, the OW is unlikely to only be lying to herself. She will likely be lying to her friends, her family, and her colleagues. In order to protect her own reputation and that of the MM (who will dump her if she talks too much).
Mymble
Yes, that too!
No time for you, no time for relationship.
I think any less than three-four days per week of physical contact (i.e. where you can touch them – the touch test) then something is really really wrong.
And don’t let them change the ‘title’ of the deal but not change their behaviour by signing you up for the ‘friends’ package! If they protest, turn it back on them and say that we’ll you’re so busy that I can’t see an LTR with you.
NML is right- these people are blessings in disguise. If they didn’t reject us, we’d be further sucked into the clown tent.
Yes, there is a lot of deception and an absence of trust in these dysfunctional relationships. I stopped asking questions in my most recent relationship because I didn’t like any of the possibilities….I think I knew I would either be lied to or get an more honest answer that would upset my status quo and force me to take action and leave or, if I stayed, we’d both know I was a doormat. I know he’s told me lies upon lies upon lies even without my questioning to enable him to maintain his status quo and I rarely called him on them. On the other hand, he’d get suspicious and check my phone, computer, etc., and confront me because he assumed I thought like him and was trying to put something over on him. And, truth be told, I did lie to him because he was so possessive and jealous, sometimes it was just easier. So many huge red flags!!! I do think I saw them but by then I too was dependent on him so, when I wasn’t walking on eggshells, I floated with the current in the river of denial.
When I think about lying, I can’t help but shake my head in amazement that every OW (including me) knows with 100% certainty that she is taking up with a liar from day 1! When I met the AC he was a MM and I had been the OW once before, too…. I was a commitment phobe myself with an aversion to the truth when it was inconvenient. I shudder when I think how many phone conversations I heard in which the MM/AC lied to his wife or for work as easily as he breathed. Since it was to spend time with me, I think I thought it was a useful skill! Blech. I do remember early on feeling uneasy because I knew ultimately I wouldn’t be the exception to his lying nature when it suited his agenda. At that point, though, I still thought this was a short term fling and it never occurred to me his wife would leave him and I’d be the one he eventually lied to full time!
“When I think about lying, I can’t help but shake my head in amazement that every OW (including me) knows with 100% certainty that she is taking up with a liar from day 1!” So very TRUE, FX. I’m still shaking my head and periodically (used to be a full-time hobby) kicking my arse around the backyard. Here’s how deluded I was: I made him promise that he “wouldn’t lie to me like he lied to his wife”….my exact words. He promised. I believed him. It’s humiliating to admit it.
I’m sorry you ended up being the one he lied to full-time.
I’m extremely suspicious the jealous and possessive types.. “On the other hand, he’d get suspicious and check my phone, computer, etc., and confront me because he assumed I thought like him”..a lot of men (and women) who exhibit these traits do so because they assume that you think like them.
Sara, that is so true! The most jealous bf I ever had was the one who cheated on me and humiliated me with other girls. He used to kick up stink about me going for lunch with an old (male) friend. While I was away on holiday he hooked up with another woman but didn’t bother to mention it until a week after I’d returned and I’d spent the night with him twice. Then he dumped me in the street and ran off leaving me crying inconsolably. (we got back together later, unfortunately, and there was more of this kind of thing), would take too long to tell it all)
“however what you immediately learn, especially if it’s more than one lie, is that they lie when under pressure or fearing being out of control, and more importantly, they don’t seem to think you have a right to make choices under honest conditions.”
I sure wish I had found you a year ago, Nat. When this happened to me, my ex AC said he did it to “protect me” and was all mea culpa and expressions of deep remorse. I DID express my indignation over him deciding what was best for me, I told him only I get to decide what’s best for me and I get to decide that with the my eyes wide open. I read him the riot act over that. Why I chose to believe it was an error in judgment that would not be repeated is beyond me. It was downhill from there with one lie after the other, and even when confronted with the truth he would deny it or quickly tell yet another lie as a cover. Where is that tipping point? Right at the beginning. Should. Have. Flushed.
Be that as it may, my question is, what do you DO with those lingering feelings? I KNOW this man is toxic, I KNOW I could never be happy with a liar, I KNOW that I have lost all respect for this man who chooses to live a sham life and does not even have the decency to actually own his choice to dump me, I KNOW there is no going back. Yet, I am still grieving, hard, for a relationship that once brought me *the illusion* of such joy and hope. I still find myself trying to imagine scenarios that might justify his conduct, when I KNOW there are none whatsoever. Oh yes, I get plenty angry and it feels great while it lasts, but those tender memories and feelings wind up taking the piss out of my anger. How do you turn off those feelings and let go of the grief over losing something that NEVER WAS?
So sorry you are going through this. I think there is no shortcut through pain, and I know it seems such an unfair penance but it helps to confront each thought like that with the reality check- what it was really like, over and over if necessary. It`s a CBT technique, gets you out of the imagined zone into the reality. Drawback- made me angry with him and myself, which was not fun either but that was preferable to equivalent of lying to myself about what it was and what it could be.
WHY do people tell lies?
What’s in it for them?
It seems so crazy…
Tiredofassanova
“WHY do people tell lies?
What’s in it for them?”
In our BR cases – sex, mainly? That’s my guess.
To gain your trust (ironically) so they can get the sex or the ego stroke or money or whatever it is they want from you at any given time, basically, without having to do anything to deserve it. It’s thievery. They lie for the same reasons that people steal. Would rather have a thief than a liar.
I used to wonder the same. Now I know: because it can serve people in getting what they want in the short term.
Job interview: Ever been arrested? Lots of people will tick ‘no’ even if they have, thinking, what idiot would tell a hiring officer that they’d been arrested?
Headed to a party, and person you don’t like hears you discussing: Hey, you guys going somewhere tonight? You: Um, no, probably not, actually, right guys?
Guy who once had affair, with new woman: Her: So, why did your last relationship end? Him: Oh, you know, she was a little nuts about some stuff. (Yeah, livid about his behaviour, but he’s like, I’m not telling this lady that!)
It’s funny, now that my self-esteem has increased some, I see opportunities for lying much more clearly. It’s because I’m more in touch with what I want, and I see that going about getting what I want honestly is more time-consuming than cutting corners or trying to fake my way into getting stuff.
I think many liars are focused on their wants and have an all’s-fair attitude: the how-they-get-it doesn’t matter one bit. I think many of them even see honest people as naive or unsophisticated. Think Machiavelli. Or take a look at this dreadful book called The 48 Laws of Power.
My ex had to have read that book Magnolia. I’m actually really really shocked reading the outline of it, the laws…WOW! I’ve known that I’ve escaped a megalomaniac for some time now but sheesh!
There’s another book by the same author called “the art of seduction” that sounds even more disgusting (haven’t read it but read the Amazon reviews). Seemingly the tactic is to identify vulnerable women with low self esteem (avoiding women with healthy boundaries and confidence) and basically destroy them with hot-and-cold behaviour etc. There are literally hundreds of reviews of this book by men who think it is fantastic. It sounds like a “assclown/sociopath/misogynist handbook”, and I believe there’s plenty other such titles on the Market. I am almost tempted to get it so I know when I’m being mindf***ed but am reluctant to enrich the AC who wrote it any further.
I’ve looked at some of these books (and there are many) and some of them are just shocking. And infuriating!
Lying in bed crying as I write this. one too many drinks on my birthday two nights ago led to breaking 4 months of NC by means of text. He immediately sends several texts, tries to call, e-mails, and even begs me to go to dinner the next night. I respond to none of it, but a little poking around on Fakebook reveals he is in a relationship with a woman he hired to do the accounting for his business right before he broke up with me. I questioned what I perceived as an attraction to her at the time, and he denied it. Effing imposter. I feel like I am back at square one. I’m not sure I will ever be strong again. I’m just so confused and hurt and tired. What in the hell makes this guy want to call, write, text, and see me when he has a new girlfriend?
I know, I know…I brought it on…
You don’t – you really DON’T want a relationship with this man, and neither does she, probably.
Think about all the things that you want and that you’ve ever wanted to do with your life – do you think that you’d ever be able to do them when your energy is being poured into wondering, fretting and questioning everything that you’re told? Trying to be perfect so that he doesn’t go hassling ex-girlfriends when they get in touch? That isn’t a relationship, it’s a full-time JOB.
I’m sorry, though – that doesn’t stop it feeling horrible, I know.
Kmac,
he is a premium grade AC and you have the beyond doubt confirmation that you are right to be NC. Also, you are allowed mistakes, and that was actually only a blip, a mistake would be to respond. The guy is a certified jerk. Also, you don`t have to imagine that he is better in a better relationship with someone else. See? Just positives! Chin up, take care.
You’re not in the situation with him – yet.
Hit the brakes, you’ll skid for a little while, but you’ll come to a stop without crashing.
Don’t respond
Then delete his number from your phone
Then get back in the saddle
You made a mistake – so what – we all have on this forum. Press the reset button on yourself to give you a new leaf and give yourself a licence to pardon yourself.
No-one is keeping score! It’s like we want to act so good that its like a higher power watching us all the time.
He wants the ego stroking. Stay strong and don’t respond.
Thank you Yoghurt, Sushi, and Tired. You are helping me through a very rough morning after a truly awful night. The thing is, I’m not worried about staying strong with NC…the thought of contacting him makes me sick. I’m more worried about the fact that I feel like I have some kind of PTSD when these things happen. His attempts to contact me….seeing his new gf on facebook writing comments about how deleriously happy she is with him…it effects me almost violently, with over-the-top anxiety attacks, and a feeling like I’m going to be sick. I feel like most women could just laugh it off, and say : Thank god I’m out of it. I do thank god I’m out of it. I just don’t want it to hurt so badly, or even understand why it does when I know he is a total and utter AC.
No, most women don`t just laugh these things off, I didn`t either. This is hard enough without you beating yourself up about your reaction, he has hurt you and you are reacting. Believe me Kmac, you are more in control than you realise, you would be out of control if you just blindly run back to him, but you are not doing that, so you are really doing brilliantly. If you could stop yourself from looking him up you would stop pouring salt on your wounds. ( Listen to me, I did it for so long, thank God for Natalie) It doesn`t matter what BS his new gf writes, the poor woman is under misaprehenshion – he is a lying jerk who is trying to see you behind her back. Thats reality. And you will stop feeling like you are feeling today, that`s reality too. HUGS.
yeah, who are these alleged women who can laugh these things off? I planned to be one of them, a tough cookie, a femme fatale. I think they’re only in novels and movies.
kmac,
Defriend him if you haven’t already and block him and her on Facebook. I did this to my AC. My head went crazy and the pain was blinding! The AC had a red car so every red car I saw triggered me. I would think about everything 24/7 non-stop and was so fragile that I would have broken down had I seen them in person.
If you haven’t done so already, I would suggest a dating ban as well and therapy until you’re clear and in a better place. I never thought I would make it out the other side – but I did!
Great post. The lies my ex UA MM told were endless and became more and more complex and yes, lies lead to more and more lies. He’d even get offended at being confronted and disbelieved. When confronted he’d gaslight me and I really learnt how nasty it is to do that to someone, more than nasty, its insidious and evil. I became more and more embroiled in his lies and it weakened me and my belief in myself, thats how gaslighting gets its hold on someone. Its not love its pure evil.
FLUSH is the only way out of this type of relationship. It took me three years to do it. Now I have a BS detector sprouting out of my head, one whiff and I bail.
Thank you all.
This is a struggle for me this whole lying to me thing.
Lots of people lie by omission or sometimes they tell their version of events which differs from the other persons version who is lying when they are adamant they are both right.
I don’t know why I struggle to accept someone who future fakes is lying to me they could have changed thier mind which is their prerogative to do so.
For example exEUM said ‘you can attend my party’ then changed his mind and broke off things with me. I get confused did he future fake and lie, did he mean what he said, did he regret what he said and the only way out of it was to now end things? I no longer go over and over this its not worth it. But I struggle with all what is a lie in terms of future faking and how to tell the difference when they could have simply changed their mind.
I don’t think I’m at all ready to date, but I want to add to my knowledge and would appreciate any feedback on future faking/changing their mind.
Tulipa
I don’t think he can be bothered to lie to you. He just says whatever suits him at the time and if he changes his mind he knows you’ll roll with it and come back for more.
Analysing whether someone is “just” changing their mind, future faking, outright lying or omitting to tell the truth is so fruitless. Do you feel that one of those is so much more acceptable than the others? Is that what you’re reduced to, picking through piles of rubbish to see what rubbish is better?
Face it, after all the dallying around with this man, I don’t think it matters. You seem to accept anything from him.
And no, it’s not people’s perogative to change their mind. Sure, change your mind over which restaurant we will go to. With adequate notice and a bulletproof excuse that’s not delivered by text, you can even cancel me. Once. Maybe twice if you got run over. Three times, you’re not my friend.
Yeah, I cut off an ex-EUM after a friendship of over fifteen years for cancelling on me last minute with some lame text that made no sense. Of course it made no sense. He was lying. I don’t even care why. then the lame ass has the nerve to intrude upon my recent birthday with an email. He’s blocked now.
I keep my commitments. Last night, I had an appointment at 7pm. No time to pick up any food on the way home so for dinner I had scraps. I’ve had to eat plain noodles for breakfast. Sure, I could have cancelled it. But I didn’t because I said I would do it.
Grace, I totally agree. Your last paragraph brings up an important point I have seen in a lot of different interactions with people. Some folks just will not put themselves out, ever, in any way if at all possible. Or, what becomes apparent is that they will never put themselves out for ME. Either way, and whatever the underlying cause in their thinking, they are free to change their minds, cancel, or flake out… with someone else, because I sure won’t be around for that.
Tulipa
My very recent ex- is a perfect example of a future faker. At the beginning of the relationship, we had to get engaged, married, babies etc asap, according to him. Now 15 months later, he panicked after we started looking at wedding venues and dumped me, querying why I had been so active looking for them. Well…because we were engaged…because he’d suggested getting married last August…because I thought we were in a committed relationship.
And this is the thing – they may change their minds/realize they have over extended them selves in what they promised you – but they never share this with you, until they are ready to, and dump you out of the blue. People can change their minds, can discover they made a mistake, but they should respect you enough to have an honest and timely conversation with you about it.
This is a great site – like getting an ice-cold glass of water in the face when I start to drift
Thank you for the replies.
Grace this happened in 2010 at the time I drove myself up the wall with questions was I future faked and the only way out was to end things, doesn’t he have the right to end things blah blah now I can see like you say I was looking for the best piece of rubbish in the pile. I guess I don’t want to be caught out again, it makes sense what fifi said they aren’t ready to discuss things with you until they are ready to dump you. What choice did he have, he made a mistake inviting me and he didn’t have any other way out except to dump me.
I feel for you fifi and can see what you are saying this man called have called a halt to plans at anytime in the proceeding instead of waiting until he was ready to dump you. I sincerely hope he doesn’t come crawling back wanting another chance.
The hardest part for me has definately been forgiving myself for believing or sometimes pretending not to notice the lies. I keep asking myself why or how I let that happen? In order for me to move on, I need to accept that it happened, learn from it and most of all forgive myself. I thought by now I could be at that point. It’s been 5 months no contact with a couple of lame attempts by him to contact me. I’m going to continue to work towards the forgiveness I deserve from myself. Wish me luck. I don’t feel so strong today…
I loved Magnolia’s original quote and your response. I remember when I finally recognized and had to accept the fact that there is no such thing as an honest cheat. Worse than accepting the fact that he lied, was facing the fact that I had to be telling myself a few porkies of my own in order to proceed. Deception is one hellva slippery slope and I must have been the most desperate woman on the planet. I made every mistake you state above. I mostly got the omission of critical information which I’d find out after the fact. I remember screaming, if I’d have known X, I wouldn’t have done Y. Of course, he knew if I’d have known X, I wouldn’t have done Y, which is why he withheld the info. I’m still stunned by his steely self-confidence and lack of remorse. No excuses for me however. It is true in my case, the amount of deception I was willing to engage in was directly correlated with how willing I was to get involved in an unhealthy situation. It was also true for me that once I fell into the “lie hole”, it became extremely difficult see the truth. Lies, weeds, cockroaches, and rats…oh my! Thank you for your help and guidance in getting out of the lie hole.
runnergirlno1, your situation and feelings mirror mine….I too got stuck in the ‘lie hole’!! Thankfully I’ve dug myself out….12 days NC and really going strong.
‘I mostly got the omission of critical information which I’d find out after the fact. I remember screaming, if I’d have known X, I wouldn’t have done Y. Of course, he knew if I’d have known X, I wouldn’t have done Y, which is why he withheld the info. I’m still stunned by his steely self-confidence and lack of remorse’
This is so true and describes my situation with the EUM. They do have a steely self confidence and as someone else has said, lying comes naturally to them. I don’t think they’re capable of feeling any remorse.
I’m just so happy that it is someone else he is now lying to, I just hope she soon realises she’s in the lie hole and needs to escape!!
Thank-you Nat for my daily NC emails, they are a real support.
M x
Hi Miranda,
Congratulations on digging out of the lie hole and on 12 days of NC. Stay strong. Reality (through NC) was uncomfortable for me at first but being trapped in a lie hole with a lying cockroach and rat got even more uncomfortable, finally. Omission of critical facts to get the goods by deception is commission and is considered a crime in certain contexts. It should be a crime in relationships too. He, he, he, imagine the number of cases!
I’ve been thinking about your comment about whether they feel remorse. Oh god, I know it did. It’s an interesting thought because when someone is convicted of a crime, expression of remorse becomes a factor. I guess it doesn’t much matter what he felt, because if I would have flushed at the first advance (from a MM), I would not have gone down the lie hole. Shoulda, coulda, woulda…no more porkies at the outset.
Stay strong and keep reading BR. It’s a fab place.
Thanks Runnergirlno1
I visit this website daily, can’t do without my baggage fix!!
You’re so right about NC…it is difficult at times, I nearly sent a text the other night, but felt so strong in the morning having just deleted it.
My EUM would be serving a life sentence right now for all the lies and deception he has caused with so many women. I’m not gonna be his get out of jail card anymore!! His girlfriend may think he’s Mr Perfect, but she has been fed nothing but lies since the summer. I on the other hand know the truth and that’s what counts.
In a few weeks or months, the middle of the night texts will no doubt start arriving again. This time I will just laugh to myself and press the delete button….no hang on we need a FLUSH button on our phones ladies!! And all EUM’s should have a ring tone:
Liar, Liar, pants on fire!!!!
M x
It sounds like you know the NC drill with these AC’s. Can you delete and block him? That’s the flush button. As Natalie once said, mine was like a cockroach after a nuclear bomb resorting to snail mail and calling on a private number.
Still laughing over the ring tones suggestion! I can hear all our cell phones going off with liar, liar pants on fire. Too funny.
The jails/prisons would be overflowing…
My last relationship was predicated upon NOTHING but lies. But, with the benefit of that crystalline vision that is 20/20 hindsight, I realize now that it taught me more about MYSELF than anything else.
This man kept insisting that he had bankrolled an obscene amount of money offshore and that it was his plan to eventually circumnavigate the globe in a 56-foot sailboat with ME as his first mate. He kept pressuring me to retire from a successful teaching career (which, fortunately, I didn’t) with the assurance that my financial future was anything but bleak.
Like a proverbial gambling addict at a slot machine, I remained invested in the relationship in spite of the fact that I kept telling myself that such an elaborate future wasn’t really part of my value system anyway.
Ah, but what if . . .
We moved in together and I was thrust into the role of sole breadwinner. Now I was REALLY committed. No room for resentment or Jerry MacGuire-like statements anymore. I kept telling myself that this was just a mature ability to delay gratification on MY part.
He was diagnosed with cancer. Now, I was thrust into the additional role of primary caregiver. After all, how do you kick someone with advanced metastatic prostate cancer to the curb ? And still his “excuses” as to why we weren’t living the life of Riley, “just yet”, continued unabated.
He died three and a half years ago. And I discovered that not only was he penniless, but his “legacy” was an astonishing credit card debt.
My journey back to reality, self-respect and boundaries began in earnest with his death. And I will never look back.
After all, how do you kick someone with advanced metastatic prostate cancer to the curb ?
What a dillema! I don’t know what I would do in that scenario! Argh!
This applies to any relationship with romatic partner or friends.
Even if you do not know the person is lying to you, if you see or hear them lying to others, you can bet they are lying to you too.
Good article. Thank you.
I’m not a liar. I’ve never been good at it from when I was a kid so just never developed the skill. The unfortunate thing is I assume people that care about me are like me and not liars. I try to live my life in a way that minimizes actions that are so awful I need to lie about it rather than just be honest. Being an intelligent person the worst thing is that I feel like a total idiot for believing lies and even justifying them and now assume that EVERYTHING out of their mouth is a lie even that they care about me which is also a lie. I suddenly feel like an insecure adolescent with poor judgement in people and infinitely gullible similar to the feeling of someone who just sent 2k to Nigeria for a friend of a friend that was in trouble… 100% NC is the only way to get my mojo back
This is my first post here, so, hello to Natalie and to you all. Secondly, Jennister, to you and to all of you who find it hard to forgive yourselves (including me) – the great Samuel Johnson said once: “It is better to suffer wrong than to do it and happier to be sometimes cheated than not to trust.” Sooner or later, we will get over the pain. But they will always stay evil.
My assclown lied to me for five and a half years and I blindly accepted that he was sincere in his words. I should have been looking at this actions because while he was telling me he loved me and that he wanted a future with me and children with me, he married someone else!! Then after he supposedly “separated” from her, would still not be seen in public with me and wanted to keep our relationship a “secret” just until he “sorted his divorce out”. Once he took me away to a lovely hotel for the night (at a time he claimed to be separated) and the next day went on a “stag do” to “Ibiza” for a week. He phoned and texted me for four days about what a great time him and the lads were having”. Imagine my horror when I found out he was in Greece with supposed “ex” wife!!! I am ashamed to say after a three month break up following that particular lie, I let him back into my life. What followed was another TWO YEARS of lies and deception by him, covering the truth, gas-lighting, diminishing and trying to control me using lies and trickery into staying with him. Thank god I discovered Narcissism and all his behavior fell into place. I truly believe he lied so extensively that he actually believes his own lies and fantasy make believe world, where he is the put upon hard done by “victim” and the women involved, his poor wife and me are the callous uncaring ones!! SO much better off out of it….
Francine, Francine, that sounds like an utter TRAIN WRECK!
My son’s father used to lie about the weirdest little things – I remember once that he told me that he hadn’t seen ‘Monster’s Inc’ when he had. I was like “you can’t even be honest about DISNEY? What on earth is the point of that?”
From where I am now (which is becoming a nicer place to be by the day) I don’t see the point in lying – if people don’t really know you then how can they truly love you? But, in the years B.aC., although I thought that I was honest, I really really wasn’t – I buried a lot of my honest reactions and cherry-picked my characteristics according to the person I was talking to. So I can understand the way that he behaves, but I can also testify that it’s an appalling waste of time, effort and wellbeing.
I found out (because she told me, out of the mouths of babes and all that) that when he met his girlfriend he didn’t tell her something incredibly important about his past – that linked in with a pretty terrible experience in her past (that led to her having a serious depression)- for about six months. A while back I’ve been rabidly jealous and thought that this demonstrated his ‘true love’. Nope, now I think it’s just incredibly uncaring, thoughtless, selfish and disrespectful to what must’ve been a terrible situation for her to live through.
‘Course, now that I also know about a number of other lies that he told her (that we were ‘fine’ and everything was resolved when they met when my son was two months old – hell to the no – I’m also willing to bet that he hasn’t told her about getting drunk and sleaching all over my boss the other month) I am just incredibly thankful that I’m not in that relationship and I feel for her. And even if it works out for them, I STILL wouldn’t have wanted to spend the last year of my life in that relationship. It would’ve taken so much effort to sift through what was true and what wasn’t. And I have a baby and a full-time job.
I’m not proud of the fact that it has cheered me up a little to discover that he didn’t morph into my dream man when he met her. But I’m damn glad that I can see the lies for what they are – selfish roughshod-riding over someone else’s trust and experiences rather than ‘proof’ of true love.
‘I was like “you can’t even be honest about DISNEY? What on earth is the point of that?”
Yoghurt, I laughed out loud at that one–it’s so ridiculous that it’s kind of hilarious. These are the lies that I don’t understand. Sure, some are self-serving, but something like this….what’s the point? Is it just a sheer force of habit for these guys?
I found out at one point that the EU had a few children by a few different women (he told me about the most recent one). It’s beyond a red flag really. Since he didn’t tell me himself, I didn’t feel like I could ask him about it, and I suppose I thought that it’s something he tells people further down the line so as to not be ‘written off’ in the beginning. Sure, I never outright asked him how many children he had, but he still managed to lie about it on occasion with comments like, “my child is so amazing–not that I can compare with other children b/c this is the only one I have”.
Oh, there’ll have been a reason for it – like he’d been to see it with another girl or similar – but that’s his business. People’s reasons for lying are never good, and they inevitably come down to “I care more about how you treat me or react to me than I do about you, about behaving with respect towards you or about us having an authentic relationship”.
Bollocks to that, if you’ll excuse my French.
Yoghurt
“People’s reasons for lying… inevitably come down to “I care more about how you treat me or react to me than I do about you…”.
Yep. Well said. Sums it up. It’s all about self-interest.
Oh, noooo A, I have made that mistake too many many times, not asking/clarifying in case they get offended/I come across needy or whatever else – but we do need to confront them or just ask. What`s wrong with saying ” I`ve heard that you have x children, is that true?
I dunno sushi – I’m not sure that it makes much difference? With Mr Never-Seen-Monster’s-Inc, if you caught him out in a lie then he’d smile a you-know-you-can’t-help-loving-me-really smile, bat his curly eyelashes and act as though it didn’t matter… because it really DIDN’T matter to him whether he was telling the truth or not.
But other folk might gas-light, turn the blame back onto you or even get aggressive. These are of course all red flags but, tbh, if you feel that you can’t ask then I think that’s at least an amber light too.
I agree that we shouldn’t be scared to ask (a good point) but I also think that anyone who is should a) ask themself why they are and b) treat that as an issue in itself.
Hi yoghurt, you are right, it makes no difference to AC`s, and they will pull every single manipulative trick under the sun and not bat an eyelid. Trouble with not asking direct questions is that you end up filling the missing info with either your fears or fantasy, or you will doubt everything they say, all bad for you. Sometimes, having been lied to I would know that if I asked there`d be agression, more lies, turning it around on me. That`s from experience with him, so at a point of repeated offences. I was afraid of confrontation, didn`t trust myself enough and was too desperate for that relationship to survive, in other words I was bulshitting myself. The real issue is I shouldn`t have been in that relationship at all by then, and neither should A, she knows it`s beyond a red flag, and really we should not both bother , just flush. But if you really are in real doubt about something I still say ask, it will either be a simply clarified thing or the s**t will hit the fan. And if it does, let it fly, at least you can see it easier for what it is.
It wasn’t quite a scenario of “I heard from so-and-so that you have these other children”. If that were the case, I would have asked. I think he kept it a secret from almost everyone in his life and I was not supposed to have found out about it, which is why I felt I had no way of asking. I am curious as to how long it would have been before he revealed it to me.
It’s hilarious how many faux car accidents seem to crop up in the post comments. My ex told me and his ‘other girlfriend’ (yes – we worked that one out via Facebook) that his ex was involved in the recent pile-up on the M5 and he had to rush to her side because her parents wanted him there. He then told the other girlfriend that the ex had broken both legs. Clearly forgetting this minor detail, he mentioned he would have to go back down to Devon as the ex was too nervous about driving back to London by herself (with two broken legs?!). He tried to hook me in again over Christmas with a marriage proposal (major Future Faking). It nearly worked. Fortunately I’ve come to my senses and won’t be having anything more to do with him. I met him on Uniform Dating and he’s in the Army. I would advise single girls in the UK to avoid this site as it is full of married or recently separated major players in my experience. Thank you Natalie for your wise words! I would still be being led up the garden path without you 😉 Kate
Hey Kate,
I’m a teacher and you wouldn’t believe how many relatives get in car accidents or pass away just before a test. When I first started teaching, I thought I was killing them by giving a test! After 27 years of teaching and giving 5 tests every semester, by my count, everyone would be dead, including me and them.
I thought I’d heard every thing in the book until your story about the ex with the two broken legs. I hadn’t heard that one. These lies clearly catch up at some point. Then, it’s up to us to opt out of the craziness. Good for you for not buying his future faking marriage proposal at Christmas. Stay strong.
As the daughter of an alcoholic, I know all about lies; Sara: Dad, have you been drinking? Dad: No..(hiccup). I was grateful for his lies however. I knew what drinking meant in terms of his declining health. His lies afforded me just a little peace of mind. I latched onto them like a person struggling in deep water might latch onto a lifebuoy. I used his lies to delude myself. So I guess from a really early age I began to associate lying with a positive experience.
All of my exes have deceived me in one way or another; via omission, drip-feeding, gas-lighting, betrayal: you name it. I’ve noticed the same thing. I’ve been extremely quick to believe words because they suited my own agenda; not having to face the reality of what their actions and/or the evidence meant. I’m sure that some of my exes even thought of me as stupid. However it was never a case of failing to recognize the BS..I do have a wonderful BS detector..it was that I wanted to believe it.
Am still struggling with indentifying these lies, guess thats why I went all CSI on my ex AC. Am not usually mistrusting, but identifying that something is lie is sometimes near impossible. They go all fishery, slippery, slimy on you and try and wriggle themselves out. E.g. my ex said he finished university, which had me assuming he made a degree for a long time. No he dropped out, cicumstances of which he was all defensive about. Now on his new dating profile it says he has a bachelor, thats wrong! I dont wanna seam petty, but there were other things, which he simply failed to mention, is this also a lie? Like when opened his FB account half year in our relationshit, i already knew he didnt have many freineds. All of a sudden on his FB there is lots and 3/4 of them women. When i asked him about who these women were, he said i am too inquisitive for him and got all defensive. So my question, would you be asking who other women are on FB that your BF is linked to or not?
In my experience, they’re probably hook ups or booty calls held in reserve/in contact. Facebook can tell you a lot about someone, merely by looking at who is on there.
When the guy l dated was caught up with lies, he said: OK, yes l lied, BUT l lied, because l wanted US to work.
Did l mention that while he was *trying to make US work*, he was also married with another woman. As l lived in another country, it took way longer to find that out.
I have blamed myself for one thing only – not listening my inner gut. As l could not put the finger on what was wrong in the picture, because, technically, he ALMOST did everything right, l could not detect the reason, why my gut was alarming. He lied to me and to his family as well, and he did it excellently.
Much like no contact, I find bans and restrictions liberating
Dating sites – BANNED
IM/Chat – BANNED
Facebook – restricted to friends (and ‘friends’ has a very specific definition now which *explicitly* excludes sex with them).
Making friends out of ex dates or exes – BANNED
Long Distance relationships – BANNED
I just can’t handle the risk of another fantasy, crumb filled disaster. Best to block it at the source…
Right with you on all of those things on the “banned” list, t_o_a…. Life is so much simpler without all that stuff, none of which is at all essential to happiness – in fact, quite the opposite!
People lie because they are afraid of the consequences of the truth. The most damaging lies are those we tell to ourselves when we try to justify the lies we have been told. We too are afraid of the consequences of the truth. I have been told that there are ‘white lies’ and that these don’t really matter – ie: when someone asks ‘does my bum look good in this?’ and we say no when in fact their bum looks like the side of a house! I don’t care if the lie is pink with purple spots, a lie is a lie is a lie! It damages the lair and the person to whom they are lying. It destroys trust, and in the case of the lies we try to justify, it destroys our trust in ourselves and our judgement. One can be honest in a delicate situation using a little tact and diplomacy but in my opinion, no lie is justified.
I was never able to justify the lies I heard so instead I ended up disbelieving every word my ex told me – that’s the ultimate price a liar pays. But the damage that did to me and the emotional angst i put myself through, trying to stick my fingers in my ears and go la la la , its not really important in relation to how much i love this person was immense.
The person i didn’t love was me.
Excellent! I have also read the book “boundaries in dating” by Dr. Henry Cloud and I do recommend the book. I have highlighted that same statement “As soon as there is any kind of deception, stop everything.”
I have started dating again and i met the guy on a dating site, we never met in person, but i caught him in lies, like he lied about his age, he said he is 39 in his profile and on fb his graduation year indicates he was around 44 and of course his email also has his date of birth and confirmed he was actually 44. At the beginning i rationalized it as well he just want his profile to be seen buy younger woman, however i still disliked it. What it really set the alarm off it was when he posted in his fb a picture that i had seen on his myspace and it was at least 1 or 2 years old and he posted it saying he took this picture during his training. It really upset me. I never confronted him but i decided to be honest with myself and asked “Do i really want this?” the answer was no, I don’t want this bad enough to take his lies. I was trying “not to be so judgmental” but when i read the book i new, this is deceptive so i just unplug and we never met. He never really ask me why, after so many fail intents to meet, one day he said we really need to go out for lunch and i reply I am not interested anymore. He said ok cool, but a week or two later he asked me to give him a chance. I never did answer, and in my opinion he never asked why because he new he had been lying through his teeth.
Judge Judge Judge!
You wouldn’t let a stranger into your house, so why let a stranger into your heart?
what do these guys get out of the lies? I start to feel like they are con artists in the love field. I do think that most them know exactly what they are doing and they do it deliberatly. My ex AC is starting with exactly the same kind of online profile, i fell for. Am sure he also uses the same tactics so that women will think, he just hasnt found the right woman yet. On paper and how he behaves at first, he is just too good to be true. And correct its not true, but when you start getting a glimpse it feels like its too late. I have to start practising the flush. 😉
Over the last posts I felt haunted by a particular memory and it never fitted the title. Today it does.
My first and only MM came to visit me for the first time, as we were LD and all contact had been texting so far. A MM had always been a strict no-go for me, but as I hadn’t found BR at that time I had convinced myself that the reason why my relationships didn’t work out was that my principles possibly might be too strict and old-fashioned (they weren’t, sigh) and opened myself up for a MM who swore that his marriage was DEFINITELY over and that he only had committed himself to a two-years-wait (okay, red flag) to divorce his wife in order not to bother his youngest son with the news before he’d finished his college…
So MM had arrived and obviously he hadn’t told his wife that he had met someone and was off for date discovery (as I had expected) but that he for a change wanted to spend a weekend in the capital, my city. Half an hour after his arrival his wife called, ten minutes after her call his adult daughter called, both in loving concern weather he had arrived well. I listened with raised eyebrows and attention to him chatting along with both of them and lying. I can’t describe how uncomfortable I felt. I should have ended things on the spot as everything I thought about him crumbled, but exactly that among a lot of other reasons I was not able to do as one of my problems is the lacking of words, the choice of words, the skill of how to communicate it, how to break the news. That haunts me too.
I remember thinking to myself “Gosh, this guy can lie and you wouldn’t hear it. He is an accomplished liar.” Later he took a picture of my backyard view to sell it to his family as the view from his hotel… Many lies yet in wait for me as I took that road.
This particular situation keeps popping up and I struggle not to wander off and get lost in the Coulda-Shoulda-Woulda-Mountains. Just sharing and cleaning it off my chest. Thanks.
What’s a “porkie”?
Ah, sounds like you’re not from the UK. ‘Porkie’ is short for ‘porkie pie’. And ‘porkie pie’ is rhyming slang for ‘lie’ 🙂
My ex was careful to never technically lie. i think it’s very important for him to think he is honest.
Instead, he has a complicated and subtle system of evasions and lies of omission.
For example, we were living together in a tiny apartment. I wanted him to contribute toward expenses and us getting a bigger place. He said, “I still have to pay my mortgage.” This was technically true, he did still own a house. I took the ball and ran with it, saying excitedly, then you can sell it and we can use that as a down-payment on an apartment. He didn’t disagree. I remember telling my mom about this great new plan, and then periodically asking him whether the house was ready to put on the market. He said it upset him to talk about. That was also technically true. But the *real* truth was that he was not paying his mortgage and had decided to default and walk away. He never told me that, I simply stopped asking because it made him ‘so upset,” and much later I found a pile of unopened mortgage bills and dire notices.
I’ve been thinking a lot lately about denial. I used to think people in denial were superficially in denial, in other words, they knew full well the score but pretended they didn’t. In my case, and I think real denial, the psychological defense mechanism, is that you really don’t know. All the indicators are there, and someone outside the situation could read them clearly. But because admitting what is really going on to yourself would involve the collapsing of an entire reality that affects your core emotional being and sense of self, you absolutely *cannot see* what is going on.
In the case of the mysterious mortgage, I convinced myself that *I* was the liar. I had somehow made up the whole fantasy that we would sell the house and buy an apartment. I had, but he had given me the hints and signposts such that I would tell myself that story. When it came down to it, I felt I could not confront him about how this was never going to happen because when i searched my memory, i couldn’t actually recall a conversation where he had promised or even stated the story. *I had,* and he had listened without correcting me. I thought, how could I have convinced myself we were going to do that? I felt delusional, like someone who goes around telling people she’s about to get married to some guy she barely knows.
I think this partial truth and…
Got cut off. I think this tactic of partial truths relies on the good nature of a partner to put the best spin on the situation.
I don’t think we should blame ourselves for being gullible or credit the guy with ESP radar that we are vulnerable to bs. People who manipulate the truth like this have been doing it a long time because it works for them, gets people off their back, and allows them to not directly confront their own behavior.
On the other hand, I sort of envied my ex’s ability to deflect personal questions smoothly. I was in a conference room for work the other day when a coworker said, “You’re older than me, right? How old are you?” I didn’t feel the context was appropriate, and I am old enough, especially in my field (tech) that my age counts against me in career growth. But I answered. Later I thought about how my ex would have handled it. He would have laughed breezily and said, “Old enough to know not to answer that question.”
There are situations in which people demand information we might not want to give. Declining to answer gracefully is an art I’d love to have. But obviously, employing those deflective tactics within an allegedly committed, intimate relationship is a power play, keeping the other in the dark and intimating that they’re invasive or nosy about things that actually affect them.
I totally agree with what everything you said. My ex AC was like that too… oh sure, he outright lied many many times, but him along with my EUM buddy (who I chucked into the friend zone before things got out of control) have this ability to deflect the truth, when asked a direct question. I do envy it.
I’m not saying it’s necessarily a good thing, but in certain circumstances, such as career-wise, it might help at times.
In relationships though– no way. That is a no-go, because honesty is at the foundation. Respect, care, love and trust. Nothing less.
Kmac
I completely understand how you feel. It’s so very difficult to see the new “happy” relationship posted on FB for the world to see. Even though we know they are toxic for us, it still hurts like hell to see it. I felt physically sick and weak after looking at his and her pages which are linked. I have now vowed to not look at them again. All he ever told were lies. This illusion he is living with the new girl is most likely a lie too.
Wishing you find the peace you deserve!
This article hits every close to home. My current bf , who Ive been with for the last 3 years, who is in prison, lies to me alot. He is also having an affair with his roommate, (which I just found out about) and he wont even admit to it. Now I see how its all coming together . From his saying I need to change the date for our wedding (feb 14th) because it would upset his roommate (it was her wedding anniversary and her husband died some years ago) wtf does she have to do with it? To her now sending me emails, first saying if he is supposedly marrying me the why is his stuff still over her house,to now getting emails from her thru facebook saying I dont know why you want to marry him so bad , he isnt coming back to you when he gets out of jail any way. To him saying shit that he doesnt want me moving his things or saying anymore to his roommate about us getting married because it will just upset her too much etc. Then I find out about other lies he has told me from the things apparently he has told her on the phone behind my back. I am so hurt and tired of his, what looks like, future faking. Oh and btw he says that all the advice on this website is just alot of garbage and that the woman who wrote it doesnt know what she is talking about. LOL. I beg to differ on that one.
I am 50 years old and I am beginning to wonder if I will ever be able to find a man who is real and who will treat me right and love me for me and only love me. I am begining to give up hope. My bf is 58 and you would think he would have more sense than this.
Dear lord Pam….You had me at the word ‘jail’!
Never mind the lies,this would be a clear cut opt out situation for me…And this Man is How old??????58!!!!
Pam you have got to see this for what it is….Ask yourself what is it about YOU that makes you feel that you deserve this crap,This dishonorable shite head!!!
You know the man is a Con,liar,cheat,and I am sure there are more shitty attributes this man has…..
Please dont think because you are 50 that this is your ‘lastchance saloon”its not…
If this guy wants to live his life this way,fine,let him….
But dont let him steal yourself away with his destruction…..
Hes in jail for a reason,leave him there,and Flush him…..
Much love
Brenda
Absolutely agree with Brenda! Criminal Assclowns = FLAT OUT CODE RED. *Instant dismissal*
I would say it’s over and go NC. Heck, I probably would move house and change my name too…
Pam,
This is all a nonsense. Scary, mind-effery nonsense. This man should be booted out the proverbial door – hard and fast.
How can he be having an ‘affair’ with his “room-mate”?! Surely what he is doing is ‘having sex with the woman he lives with’?! (when he’s not in jail, that is). Sounds like he’s having an affair with you? Or simply that he has two women on the go, one he lives with and one he doesn’t. Why are you both putting up with this crap and feeding this man’s ego by (what sound to me like) fighting over him (even while he is indisposed under Her Majesty’s pleasure, so to speak). This man is the booby prize! As for his comment about BR – like the opinion of a 58 year old lying, manipulating abusing ars**ole would be worth something? Not.
Pam, please! Stand tall and cancel all plans for Feb 14; this announcement should come from you, not him&the dubious ‘roommate.’ On no account are you to go through with any sort of wedding; it will leave you vulnerable to his legal moves to get whatever you have. You are in grave danger. Shut the door and walk way. Block all calls and messages.
You are, as you note, old enough to know better, and as we note, not too old to find someone with integrity. You will feel bereft of all this drama, but better for being free of it, too.
Be the Heroine in your own life story! And let us know how it goes.
Now Walk!
for your sake, get out of this relationship pam, if you can call it that. move house, change your phone number, anything. you wont find a decent man if you put up with garbage. leave him to his pitiful other girlfriend and wipe your hands clean. i think you deserve way better than hooking up with a guy thats not only shite, but been in jail. it appalls me, how men like that, have women pining for then. run, and run fast.
Wow, it’s incredible how many people here have been involved with liars – myself included.
So far everybody I’ve been involved with has turned out to be a liar or at least dishonest in some way. However, there was one ‘relationship’ (it doesn’t really deserve that name) several years ago that really stands out.
This is what happened:
I get involved with a guy in another country over the internet and we start a LD thing. He omits the fact that he’s secretly engaged to another girl with whom he plans to elope as they’re not legally allowed to get married in their own country because of her religion. His secret fiancée then says she’s moving to another country for her education and will be staying at her uncle’s house. My ex isn’t given her telephone number, but she promises to call him instead. She rarely calls and next thing my ex finds out is that she got in fact married and is expecting her first baby. He’s still involved with me without saying a word. However, with the secret fiancée gone, there’s a vacancy and so he gets involved with another girl of yet another religion who is in fact married (but apparently the marriage has never been consummated) and who regularly gets beaten up by her husband. She has on occasion returned to her parents who keep persuading her to give her marriage another try. She knows about me and encourages my ex to spend time with me to see which one of us he really has feelings for. (How sick is that??? She knows he’s going to sleep with me, but doesn’t mind, even encourages him… if I had known I would have most certainly minded and I also wouldn’t have touched the guy with a barge pole if I had known about the fiancée.)
This is just the beginning, I’ll spare you the rest. The story just ended up getting a whole, whole lot sicker. Yet he was a real ‘Mr Nice Guy’, kept talking about Jesus and kept saying how much he despises lies. A clear case of he who doth protest too much.
*Whoa*
I say, with some people I have been involved with, it is like I am dating a walking talking facebook or twitter feed. They talk a lot about everything but they never really seem to do much with *you*.
I have a simple test – if I can’t touch them, it’s not real. It’s fantasy.
I’ve banned online dating and chat. Won’t be going down that road ever again!
I met a guy who was separated from his second wife and his divorce came through whilst I was seeing him. Ten months into the relationship he said he was ready to live with me and we discussed this and made plans. He then told me that he had actually been married three times, he had omitted to tell me about the first wife and was actually on wife number three when I met him!
This threw me quite a bit and I began to wonder what else he had omitted to tell me. I wondered if I had really known him at all. I looked back over the ten months and saw other possible lies, I also realised that he had been a bit hot and cold and had played the future faking game (quite early on). I pulled the plug and went NC, that was 7 months ago. I’m not saying it was easy (there is a part of me that still likes him), but I know I did the right thing.
It’s hard to know when someone is lying by omission. How can you possibly know what they are not telling you?
This is why dating has to be a discovery phase. I think one big takeaway from this post should be that some people are very good at lying and don’t blink when they do it – I thought most people are uncomfortable enough with lying to show their antsiness or discomfort. The “lying as easily as breathing” thing is what keeps coming up.
I have a younger female cousin for whom this has been true since she was a child (with a sh*tty upbringing, where she learned how to lie). I can’t imagine what it would be like to date her. Now she’s not the brightest bulb and isn’t sophisticated about her lying, but it comes so effortlessly and without thought on her part that often the lies just slip by. She’s not evil, she’s just super super super messed up and very damaging to those who need her (her child, for example).
The confusing thing is that so many liars are not moustache-twirling villains. They’re usually normal, even baby-faced men and women who have learned crap ways of getting through life. And it’s tough but you can’t necessarily know that someone is like that after only a few dates (unless they’re an MM or have a GF! then it’s like, duh!). That’s why it’s important to go slow and keep your wits about you.
It’s not like we have to be all suspicious and interrogate them on everything. I think I’ve had enough turns on the merry-go-round now, that if I meet a liar, I’ll just deal with it, however much I’ve invested, however much it sucks. And now when I meet someone new and they are honest, I can appreciate that for all that it is instead of taking it for granted.
Sally
“It’s hard to know when someone is lying by omission. How can you possibly know what they are not telling you?”
You can’t know, but there will be other signs that all is not as it should be – like actions not matching words – and we should not be ignoring these as they are signs that the person is lying to you or deceiving themselves (either one is trouble).
I always think that when people – the ex EUM for example – tell me things about themselves, about what they did or why they did.. etc. things that don’t make rational sense or are difficult to understand, things they cannot explain – then they are lying about something.
As always, thank you for NML’s post and the readers’ posts&support, too.
“Gaslight” is from a famous movie in which a young woman is deceived by her husband, who tries to convince her that she is insane by denying actual reality so that she doubts her own mind. It’s now used as a verb to convey purposeful manipulation of the truth with a view toward destroying the mind of the victim.
My AC kept an emotional affair hidden from me. I found out about it a few years AFTER the fact. We were having BIG trouble in the relationshit during the time of the EA but he blamed it on his work/stress/etc. I should have listened to my gut back then. Because obviously he was cheating on me. To the point of discussing custody scenarios and facets of my personal life with the other woman. So…fast forward a few years. I find out about the EA. I ask him these 2 questions: 1. Do you think the fact that you were having an EA with this woman contributed to the stress/problems we were having in our relationship? Answer: NO. I futher wanted clarification: You mean you don’t think this EA took any time, energy, Anything away from our relationship? ?? No.
(he believes he is so good at “compartmentalizing”)
Question 2: How could you LIE to me for so long?? Answer: “I never lied to you. NEVER. Look up the definition of LIE in the dictionary. It was deception, but not lying.”
He’s very good about rationalizing, manipulation and control.
I stayed and we tried to “work on” things. Marriage counseling with a guy like this, though, doesn’t work.
When some “fishy” stuff arose recently and I had some VALID questions about it, it’s like “You don’t trust me!!” Uh yeah.
These folks do not change.
So okay, how could he DECEIVE you for so long?
Geesh. I just went and looked up the words in the OED. What were you supposed to say:
“Oh! You were only deceiving me, not lying to me!? That changes everything! Let me have sex with you right now to show you how sorry I am for falsely accusing you.”
I have met asshats like this where they make these weird semantic distinctions like they mean something. I think of Chris Rock: “Yes, yes, okay. Okay, I admit it. I had SEX with her. But I make LOVE to you!”
Sure. Whatevs.
The more BR stories I read the more I get convinced that it is not just ok, but absolutely necessary to act on gut and hunches. There is nothing reasonable about lying, manipulating AC`s and the only person deserving the benefit of the doubt is ourselves. Taking the chance on yourself is the only way to go.
St Elmo,
If he or you imagined he was guilty of a lesser crime he certainly wasn’t:
Deception is much more insidious than a lie – and lies and evasions are the tools of the deceiver – you cannot deceive someone without lying to them – regularly!
plainly this man was not accepting any responsibility – arguing about the semantics and getting that wrong!… it cannot work when you’re dealing with someone like this. The problem is not that you do not trust him, it is that he is not trustworthy! What you describe is a good example of ‘as soon as there is any sign of deception everything should stop’. Unfortunately it didn’t.
That infamous boozehound bisexual ex who lied from the start about his ex being a woman instead of a man played me like a banjo! Such a frikken liar. Red flags were flapping so I asked him if he was bi…adding that I chose not to date bi men.
“Oh no, I’m straight,” he lied right to my face till the day I months later I googled the ex and beheld a man in a dress!!! I’ll never forget the look on his face when I confronted him with the truth. He tried to turn it around on ME ” cause you have gay/trans friends I thought you’d be cool with it” er, NO. I DO NOT WISH TO DATE A BI GUY, my choice.
It was a bitter lesson to learn and since then no boyfriend no sex no kissing for almost two years now. I vet like a master I LISTEN to my gut feelings and if I notice all sorts of red flags FLUSH.
Yes I’ve had drinks dates with men who tried that “I’m busy” crap from the start- FLUSH -I bow out gracefully.
One dude lied about his grown kids living at home -I chose not to date men with kids at home MY choice-FLUSH.
I have zero tolerance for liars.
Thanks for the post Natalie, it really resonates with me.
I’ve heard it all including car accidents, cancer, trips away for work, and I’m single. Even when faced with irrefutable, tangible evidence I had someone lie to my face about what I had found and came up with a plausible explanation which I bought into at the time. One person I dated lied about everything from brand of telephone he had, to wearing glasses, what a friend of his looked like to obtaining qualifications from certain universities, undead relatives and where he used to live. I’m sorry I believed the constant untruths he told about a friend of his while he was dating me; my level of buy-in was strong. I hope she realises that the lies uttered about her were probably matched or surpassed by the lies told by him about me.
If men feel the need to lie about small inconsequential things what untruths are they telling to keep you hooked? I want an authentic man who holds honesty and integrity as a core value, not a coward who dislikes his past or his reality so much that he has to lie about all aspects of his life. The next man who tells me his ex is crazy is going to hear “what did you do to her?”
High five to the male who confessed he lived with his girlfriend, had a child with her and wanted me to be the bit on the side within the first few hours of meeting me (no thanks, next). Boo to the man who told me he was a former semi-pro ballroom dancer and received a diving award in LA and the AC who was so secretive that he couldn’t tell me that he was newly separated when I started seeing him.
I developed a critical faculty at the age of nine and started questioning what my parents told me because I could no longer blindly accept what I heard as the only truth. You have every right to ask questions and the right person for you will provide answers or try to allay your fears through actions. Witholding information is lying; usually because the uncomfortable truth is a dealbreaker.
Another great post Natalie! For 2 years, my relationship with my assclown was just riddled with lies, lies and more lies. (I’ve finally gotten the courage to leave + now when I look back, there were so many signs that he had lied to me, but I guess I was so ‘in love’ to notice!:P). Coming out of it all, I finally see everything much clearer: a lie is a lie and you should def. opt out ASAP.
I remember a time when I caught my AC redhanded, his ex-gf was texting his phone and when I confronted him, he pulled the ‘drip feed maneuver’. It was so blatant that he was cheating behind my back! He was so good at manipulating the situation and twisting everything, that I was the one who ended up apologizing and actually feeling ‘bad’ cos I had gotten angry at him!*I cringe when I remember that moment* It happened a few times throughout the relationship.
Whenever I would find that his words didn’t match his actions and I’d confront him about it i would be punished with anger, or he’d withdraw and be ‘cold’ towards me or he’d twist things around and make me look like an insecure idiot?!(i.e: he had traveled to London for a holiday, told me that he would stay with his family at a hotel, only later, when i questioned him, he revealed he was staying with ‘a friend’).
From the beginning of our relationship, he never really gave me the truth about what happened with him and his ex gf. Throughout our relationship, his ex was always going berserk + stirring up shit. (I was even crazy enough to trust him when he told me they were going on a group trip to Belgium, yes I feel SO stupid for believing that ONE!). He told me it was a big group, but I later found out that the trip was 2 couples, and one of them was him + his ex!
Earlier on before we began dating, he painted the perfect picture of him being the ‘victim’ and that his ex had ‘cheated’ on him etc etc. Its only now that I’m out of this relationship, that I began to piece everything together. Only reason why she had gone berserk was that HE didn’t end things properly with her and left her, and went on to begin dating me. He was the asshole! Whenever I questioned him about her, he would always say I was insecure about his ex, and that it was over. But throughout our relationship, she would always somehow be in the picture…magically ‘pop’ up!. He had gotten really good at lying to me, that I was the one mostly feeling horrible for even questioning him ever:P
I’m in NC now and it’s been 5 months. I finally told him to leave me alone. When I look back, a lie is still a lie. Once you accept someone lying to you, it affects everything else. I knew deep down, I couldn’t really fully trust him. He never really wanted a committed and honest relationship with me.
Its a good wake-up call! I’m def going to be more careful in my next relationship! no more giving excuses for this type of behavior!
Thanks@tired_of_assanova I Do think i should trust my own judgement more. It all just seamed off and defensive. Was thinking about going dating again, but i do think my radar is still broken. My therapist said if you feel intereseted in someone, you should run 🙂 really had to laugh at this one. And yes this is probably the most honest site on the the whole tinternet. How can i work at not being so gullible to the BS? is there a BS detecter?
While I don’t believe in lying to someone with whom there is a possibility of romance, I can understand the desire to turn yourself into someone they want to be. I have never flat out lied to someone I was on a date with, but I have been guilty of pretending to enjoy things that I wasn’t a fan of to make them happy. So I suppose if you have an extreme view of it, that may have been lying by omission.
Ami
Careful with that. If you find yourself morphing to fit what you think they want, you’re on the slippery slope of morphing more important things – like your values and integrity. You get so used to hiding yourself that you can’t have a proper relationship.
If you’re not musical and he is, he wants to be a pilot and you can’t drive, he had a wonderful childhood and you didn’t -it’s fine to have those differences (yeah, these are excepts from the convos I’ve had with A MAN),
He still speaks to me. If he really wants a musical, flying girlfriend with an idyllic childhood he’ll have to look elsewhere.
Ladies:
OMG. Sometimes the universe is so good to us.
Echoing the circumstances of the day we met, and the last day we laid eyes on one another, today my exAC and I ran into each other in a coffee shop. He was with the ‘friend’ that had hovered around while he and I were together. At first I behaved as if I hadn’t seen them, sat down, and started to work and when I looked up they were gone.
And then he was back, standing in front of my table.
Long story short, I let him sit down and treated myself to a brilliant reminder of who he was and a wonderful experience of how far I have come. He went on and on about himself, barely asking about me, as if we were the best of friends.
But the more amazing thing, and that lets me let go of a million doubts, is that fate had it that he should bump into me two days after the bank he was a VP at fired him. They basically gave him the escort-to-the-door, despite the huge expense and legal bs, getting rid of him despite his “having made the company X million dollars, and doubled targets, etc etc.”
What was fascinating was that he told the story as if he had no idea why they would possibly want to fire him. He was like, “oh, some crazy thing about some tax evasion here, or malfeasance there, but really they’re being just so mean.”
I was mildly dumbfounded, that he could say all of this with a straight face, to me, who can well imagine a number of reasons why a company would risk booting a high-profile exec they just brought in with huge fanfare only two years ago. As can some of you, likely, as I have been listing his sins here for 16 months.
But again, the breathtaking thing was the sheer audacity, the sheer scope, of this man’s ability to lie to himself, and to my face. I mean, I could have had enough of a satisfactory suck-it-and-see just from the experience of his spectacular self-absorbedness. But that the universe would let me know that, no, Magnolia, the entire local business community was not wiser than you, more savvy than you, by staying connected to this man when I could not and would not. The business community just took 16 months longer to recognize and deal with the porkies than I did.
Honestly, I swear it was like watching a criminal spinning an alibi. And I think it was so clear that I was indulging him, just watching the performance, but he didn’t seem to notice.
I feel so liberated. Time and distance actually do give clarity. One, now I can’t imagine ever expecting empathy or integrity from this person. Two, I see why I was taken in. Three, the waterfront house, the fancy job, the swanning about to events – all his world that I felt I was missing, that he had while I don’t – doesn’t exist anymore. He’s lost the job, and likely the house, he has even lost his (company-issue) phone. It never really existed – it was based on lies and manipulation anyway. He made sure to let me know he’ll make out fine financially on the severance. Oh, I’m sure he will.
“the waterfront house, the fancy job, the swanning about to events – all his world that I felt I was missing, that he had while I don’t – doesn’t exist anymore. He’s lost the job, and likely the house, he has even lost his (company-issue) phone. It never really existed – it was based on lies and manipulation anyway.”
this stuff seems so fleeting even when it isn’t achieved through lying and manipulation. When we get old, or sick, or lose someone we truly love all the fancy houses, phones, jobs in the world just kind of vanish. Or, at least, if the things themselves don’t vanish their importance certainly does.
not that I’m immune– I’ve been blinded by my ex’s career success, tenure at a prestigious university, world class scientist blah blah blah.. Recently I’ve been thinking about how intoxicating it can be to be close to that kind of “success” for the social validation it provides. That’s why people who have this stuff can so easily reel ’em in. But, imo, when the rubber hits the road it’s how we treat ourselves and others that really defines us.
also, I’ve been reading a great book by Cheri Huber, who says that how we are in one area of our lives is how we are in all areas of our lives. She says if you look closely enough, you can see your (and others’) habits, patterns, and ways of being from one realm to another.
I agree. For the longest time I have had this rather odd theory that you can tell a lot about a person (including what kind of lover they would be!) by the way they drive a car (this is the first time I have said this ‘out loud’, but have thought it often).
The people I know who are solid, considerate and dependable are careful, confident drivers who make you feel safe as a passenger. Those who are lacking in self assuredness (my sister for e.g.) drive too close to the steering wheel so they can see the end of the bonnet the whole time, only indicate after the fact and are erratic on the road. EUM? liars? – they are readily irritated by other drivers; have sudden expletive out-burts when things don’t go their way; it’s never a smooth ride – always bumpy, can’t make a smooth gear change, change lanes too fast at speed, make you feel you can’t really trust them with your life, expect you to know what lane they should be in, no patience in traffic, are back seat drivers when they are supposed to be a passenger…
Grace, you’re off the hook on this one!
Mag, well done you! What an ass.
Wow Magnolia, the universe sure has a way. I can just imagine this “convo” at the coffee shop and what was going on in the bubble above your head as the AC rattled on about himself and his porkies. Congratulations. You did recognize 16 months before the business community that the guy was a porky, filled with porkies. And thank goodness, otherwise you could have ended up supporting him and his swanning about. Wonder how long that “friend” he ditched to come back and talk with you will stick around under these circumstances? Sounds like she needs BR.
I’m totally with you in awe of how these guys spin things so convincingly. I remember when I went through the suck and see, it was like I was watching a very bad B movie with subtitles and my BR subtitles were in the bubble above my head.
I’m betting he didn’t ask about you?
That’s the hard thing for me: It didn’t really exist. It was built on lies, manipulation and fantasy. Can I get a nice severance package?
Magnolia,
I can’t help but wonder what excuse he gave that poor other woman to get her to leave so that he could run over to your table solo….
@ Izzy – learning this slowwwly. His grand ‘gifts’ were, I thought, me being treated ‘better’ than I ever had been. Now I see that a genuine attention and consistency (the love, care, trust and respect) is the real gift
@ Fearless – good theory! Never understood these people who take it so personally when someone cuts in front of them. Wonder what it says that I, who have a pretty decent driving record, got into six (six!) fender benders in the year I was with the AC!
@ runner
Are you kidding? Him: “So, tell me about you!” Me: “Well, I did end up going to Kansas …” Him, cutting me off: “Reeeeeaaaallly? Wow! That’s amazing!”, then not listening to the rest of my sentence, then turning it back to him. I had forgotten about those annoying “Reeeealllllliiiies!”
I think the friend might stick around because the guy still has money and connections, right? She now lives in another town; if he’d only known about the firing for a day or so, he probably called her for support, she probably drove a couple of hours to get into town to meet him. Whatever. Her problem.
My whole psychic world has lightened up. I was still plagued by feeling that a degree of ambition would mean somehow being able to forge professional relationships with asses like him: no more. On my drive to school, which mirrored his drive to work, I noticed that I wasn’t subtly watching for his car. And my run, in my neighborhood, which is near his work: I used to see the big tower with its big bright sign where his office was and look away; or feel annoyed and push the feeling away; and generally sigh that this company known for its values was harboring him and being directed by him. Now I see the building – and smile.
In his cranial dump he told me all the fighting he’s doing on the exit and blustered, “They don’t have their message together, and all I see is that I’ve done x, y, z … of course it’s not like I’d want any of this in the paper …” I thought for a moment of picking up the phone to the paper, of course. But I wouldn’t want to make the bank look bad. They got into a relationship with an AC – that’s when their clients needed to be worried. Now that they’re getting out, I hope that if the mess finds its way into the press, that the CEO (who hired him, fought for him, and is now fighting furiously to disentangle herself) doesn’t get dragged through the mud too much. I’m on her side now.
Natalie, brilliant post – but will your next one be on how WE have to stop TELLING lies, as well as believing them too easily?
How many of us have lied to prospective partners about all kinds of stuff – even lies of omission, etc?
Women can do this too, but maybe we do it less often because fewer of us seem to be interested in the one-night shag than the blokes. The men who’ve told outrageous lies to me that I’ve caught them out in have been the ones who thought I’d just be a hook-up, but then found that they liked me and whoops! had to start telling the truth, starting with their real surname … real phone number …. eeek ….
And that’s not even BEGINNING to tackle the lying we do to ourselves and our friends: ‘Oh, we’re so compatible!’, ‘We’re really happy together’, ‘He says he doesn’t want to get married, but that’s OK,’ etc etc etc.
So if you won’t take it from assclowns, why do it to yourself as well?
Ohhhhhhhh, I so agree with you! I just started taking a look at my own values…my own lies, lack of integrity, etc. Uggggggggggghhhh, it is really painful…much refleciton…, I have decided that the worst thing about it is the lies that I tell myself, be it by rationalizing, minimizing, blatant deception, fantasies, etc.
I’ve been thinking to myself, no wonder I doubt myself, and I don’t trust myself, and I was looking to my AC’s to make me feel safe.
thppppppppppppppppfffffffffff! What a joke! I cannot believe that I put my life in their hands, trusting them more than I trust myself, …believing in them more than I believed in myself…chasing their approval, affection and love as if it was the end all to “have” all, and now I know that the relationships that I have with my higher power and myself is the most important thing to me in my life.
What these assclowns are selling, turns me off…charming, smarming, I don’t give a shite…. I don’t believe in that soul-mate, you are the one shite, and I don’t know many people who are truly more amazing than anyone else…we are of equal value, …divine souls, but all flawed… putting our pants on one leg at a time. Just show me the values, the character, and the integrity! A guy no longer gets a free pass from me just because he is hot, culturally successful, intelligent, etc……….SO WHAT! And, be caring, loving, respectful, that is a mere pre-requisite!
Everything I need to be happy, my HP gave me…it is within me. I’m not looking for somebody to give me what I believe I need to give myself…forget that! I’m really learning to give myself what I need, and I am doing better at it than anyone else ever did, and as hard as my journey is, I wouldn’t have it any other way! (Thanks Natalie 🙂 )…but I digress
Anyway, as someone else said, I was just as EU as the AC’s were, and I am NOT beating myself up over this because I understand that my behavior was caused by bad parenting in my childhood, and my inner children did the best they could to survive my childhood, and it worked, I survived my childhood, and I am sooooo grateful to my inner children for getting me through that h**, but I am an adult now, and I am taking over, and I am figuring out what old survival skills have become self-defeating now, and I am treating myself with love, care, trust, and respect (thanks again Natalie 🙂 ), and I am re-defining my values, learning to act with integrity, dignity, respect, and grace. It is a touggggggggggggggggggghhhhh road, but I am sooooooo worthy of my own trust and love. WE all ARE!! :)…
buffythebs_slayer-“I want an authentic man who holds honesty and integrity as a core value, not a coward who dislikes his past or his reality so much that he has to lie about all aspects of his life.”
That’s awesome!! I agree completely and I’m not going to settle for anything less. 😀
Been seeing my Mr. UA for 15 months. He’s my landlord, and told me he’d been separated for years, but couldn’t leave his wife due to family issues, health, and a lawsuit against him.
He came on as the most charming and wonderful man in the universe, but then proceeded to break up with me (or incite me to break up) on a monthly basis because my “expectations” became too much. Granted, this man called me his soul mate and said I was The One, had changed his life, he’d be a forever bachelor without me, etc.
Turns out he was never leaving her. She and I found out about one another last week and spoke over the phone about his lies. Now she’s planning to stay with him and I’m devastated. I’d still take him back. Help.
Nettie
And everyone.
Please stop seeing “charm” as meaning something. Just because a man is nice to a woman it doesn’t make him a decent person. Look under the surface. It’s all there if you care to see it.
If we are so hungry for acceptance and approval that a man paying us some attention makes us forget all our standards and values, THAT’S what needs to be addressed. Rather than keep chasing him down. Especially when he’s gone back to his wife/lover/other fallback girl. He’s had his fun/enjoyment/fantasy trip. Let him go.
Over and over again (not just you Nettie) women here are posting about how charming he is and then going on to humilate themselves.
Cross charm off your wishlist.
“Charm to disarm” to a tactic many lowlifes appear to use. “Charming” unfortunately and in many cases (in my experience) does not equal Prince Charming.
Nice… they’re supposed to be nice anyway. And he is your landlord! Boundaries!!
Fallback logic relies on good cancelling out bad.
It goes something like this:
good + bad = good
So basically they could be an a*sshole but if they give to charity that would redeem them!
In ‘practical reality’ it should be like this:
good + bad = bad
Much like poison in an otherwise delicious buffet, the presence of POISON overrides EVERYTHING.
Most things can be boiled down to a simple equation:
YOU THEM SUM RESULT
+ + +2 Decent relationship
– + 0 Not mutual, fail
+ – 0 Not mutual, fail
– – -2 EU/AC Catastrophe
Relationships are the sum of two people. The SUM, not cancelling out. If one of you is EU then things will not add up. Make sure the sum is Not Zero and certainly not NEGATIVE!
I can dig it! I like this…good + bad= bad=FLUSH=NEXT 🙂
I love your analogy regarding poison at the buffet, lol. I’m going to write that on a Post-it and stick it up as soon as I get home. Thanks!
“Just because a man is nice to a woman it doesn’t make him a decent person. Look under the surface. It’s all there if you care to see it.”
Grace, I wish I could give you a fist bump in person! So true. As my Dad says, “Even the biggest asshole can act nice when he wants something.”
Charm is something people do, it’s not something they are – a (dubious) behaviour, not a character trait.
Nettie…
I was shaken to the core when I read the phrase”I would take him back”???
What exactly are you wanting back?Lies,futurefaking,being an OW,someone who apparantly blows hot and cold on a reg basis!!!
You are at the hurting stage right now,and I know how you feel,I think we all do,but once you get some time away from this Man,You will start to see who wrong this Asswipe is for you,for anyone really…
I wonder of his Wife did not his sorry Ass back,Would you still?
If she wants the Booby prize let her have it,and Move on….Good riddance to bad rubbish…She is a broken woman,Having been with this ASSCLOWN for years no doubt…I hope one day she wakes up and sees it for what it is,You darling have a opt out choice….Take it and run…No Contact…And keep coming on here,Read as much as you can,Nat and these Ladies Know thier stuff…..
Brenda
Thank you so much, ladies. Reading your encouraging replies helps. No, I’m not young. I’m in my late thirties. This was my first time living alone and/or renting an apartment. I was previously married, then jumped straight into another 5 year live-in relationship, and when that fizzled I moved out last year and was sleeping with my landlord within 3 weeks. What a disaster. It just feels so fresh and I believed everything he said, so this all came as a huge shock. Just 2 weeks ago he was talking about how much he wants to be with me and needs me, how his divorce was in the works, etc. Next thing I knew, I was seeing photos of he and his wife on her FB page while he was supposedly on a business trip. His wife seems like such a sweet woman, and it sounds like he’s been doing the same thing to her.
Oh, and his wife, btw, is such a sweet woman. She was so kind to me when we spoke. It sounds like he’s been giving her the same type of BS. We commiserated over the fact that we both kept telling him we wanted actions, not words. It just hurts so much because he is a master of words and I keep replaying all of the loving and romantic things he said in my mind. I know it’ll get better in time but it’s just hard right now.
Nettie you’re addicted to the drama you must and you can cut him off we’ve all been there girl trust…I dumped the man and that meant saying good bye to our two cats (he had custody and I had no contact) nothing hurt worse than that but guess what slowly and surely I GOT OVER IT and you will, too.
One day at a time. Yes charm means NOTHING but they’re smooth LIARS. All the same all over the world. Dump delete block flush no contact you can and must do it for proper mental health.
Nettie,
I am so sorry. But if you go back to him it will only get worse.
I would suggest you look for somewhere else to live – do a moonlight flit, don’t bother to pay your rent up to date and don’t leave a forwarding address. You sound young. You need to be with people who really do care about you (he doesn’t)- could you move home for a while until you are over the worst?
Thank you so much, Mymble. I don’t plan to move out. He recently said he was putting the building up for sale (as part of the “divorce” split), and now that his wife knows his former mistress lives there, I’m sure she’ll push for the sale regardless. And he won’t be coming around; he has too much to lose. My family doesn’t let me talk about all this with them because they’ve been telling me for a year that something wasn’t right and are sick of hearing about it. So it means a lot to me to be able to get my feelings out here and receive good advice. Thanks so much, everyone. It’s especially helpful because you’ve all been in relationships with men like this.
Nettie
how can he be separated without leaving his wife? How can he be a forever bachelor boy when he has a wife already? Never heard such drivel… err.. well, not for a while!
This guy was hoping you were the woman who’d fall for this pish. He was right the first time – don’t make him right a second time.
I know that now. We had a LDR anyway, and he said they lived 500 miles apart as well. He started talking to me about how he was going to get the ball rolling on the divorce last February. He even claimed that in order to go through a “collaborative divorce” process (in order to protect their assets), the lawyers were making them commit to 8 weeks of counseling. It was total BS! They were just plain going to marriage counseling. Then there was this huge lawsuit he was involved in; then she had a possible “cancer scare” and was going through a battery of tests to see what was wrong and he was going to have to “move back in” with her to care for her because their grown kids expected him to step up and had just learned he was planning to “leave Mom” in that condition. Lies, lies, lies. He’d cry on my couch and hold me and say he didn’t want to lose me; we’d break it off, and a few days later, there I was back on the roller coaster and he’d be Mr. Charming again. I am just so angry and feel like he sucked away over a year of my life. I kept asking him if he would just let me go if he didn’t plan to ever move down and be with me, but he kept promising it was just around the proverbial corner. I take responsibility for the fact that I waited and was gullible. I just hope I don’t make the same mistake again. I feel so foolish. I just don’t know how to let anger take over and stop loving him.
“I just don’t know how to let anger take over and stop loving him.”
Start loving yourself, that’s how. Then you’ll see that this man’s incessant barefaced lies and deceitful manipulations are just not good enough for you.
Hi Nettie,
Your comment “I kept asking him if he would just let me go if he didn’t plan to ever move down and be with me, but he kept promising it was just around the proverbial corner” struck me because it’s a common thought I think for a lot of us with these men. I too have asked men that. I believe now that the recipe for disaster, for me anyway, was… ME) I wanted to hear them say they couldn’t let me go because I so desire love apparently at any cost to myself. So I denied and minimised why they were really saying they wouldn’t let me go. THEM) They want control. The only time these men come after me, is when I start doing what’s right for me. They feel out of control when I take charge of myself and stop worrying about them and what they think and what they want. In this weird twisted way, them saying they can’t let me go is STILL about them. It’s NEVER been about me. It makes me paralized sometimes with fear and sadness and low feelings of self worth to realize this, but if their actions have NEVER lived up to this supposed care they have for me…I wouldn’t be where I am I figure. Letting me go would have shown they actually cared about my well being. Plus, me waiting around for them to let me go was again me putting the responsibility for my happiness in someone else’s hands. Someone else’s VERY unworthy hands.
Don’t let their need for control manipulate you into making your life about them. That’s all it truly is. It hurts I know.
Nettie, the ladies have given you really good advice, but there’s just one thing I’d like to chip in:
***You should have stopped at the word ‘landlord’.***
That kind of relationship is ALWAYS going to have a dodgy dynamic, because there are property and money issues involved. Landlords (and bosses at work) should, I think, be classified as ‘married’ and treated as such – eg. NO INVOLVEMENT beyond politeness and courtesy.
Im really confused! I cannot seem to make head nor tail of being emotionally unavailable. For the men yes but for me I feel I am but I can’t be if yet again I have fallen for my ac lies within the last week. All the work I did was going well. Completely nc for 5 months(sort of)and then I got the desperate ‘I really need to speak to you email’ I met him said move in, marriage etc. Now already it’s off the table because I have questioned certain things and pushed for his promises. Of course it’s text book and I feel guilty for ignoring Natalie’s words because it just says that there was no point in me reading and learning from it in the first place. Now the boot is on the other foot and he says he needs to decide what he wants. How is this possible? I mean he came to me! Please can someone explain why this makes me emotionally unavsilable? Why am I rationalising? Why am I thinking maybe this will work? I can’t talk to him, he just gets agitated and backs off. All the typical signs were, are and always will be there so wtf is wrong with me?
Shinestar
It’s subtle but with a little time and distance and NC (not sort of NC) you’ll see your own unavailabilty.
Bottom line – if we are entertaining a man who disappears, shifts, switches and changes, it’s because we PREFER that to someone who is actually there with a genuine relationship on offer.
If you’re not in a genuine relationship but say you want one, then it’s time to ask yourself why not. The answer to that question isn’t down to him (except for the fact that you keep picking him and his kind).
Don’t kick yourself – it’s not off the table, it was never on the table.
“Bottom line – if we are entertaining a man who disappears, shifts, switches and changes, it’s because we PREFER that to someone who is actually there with a genuine relationship on offer.”
Well said, that is exactly what I discovered! 🙂
…took me a looooonnnng time, but eventually if we hang in there, we get there, and we have all of these wonderful ladies and gents to help us 🙂 🙂
Hmm. What is the deal?
Using the ‘visualise the deal’ method, you can see
that this is not a good deal to sign!
Unavailable
——————-
Terms and Conditions
——————-
If you get with me:
* I will lie to you
* I will future fake
* I will not leave her
* I will break up with you on a monthly basis
* You will get OW status and have to compete for my attention
* You agree to hand over your self-esteem and self-respect
* Even if you get me to leave her you won’t be sure if I’d continue seeing someone else
________Signature here
Ok, tired_of_assanova. You are making me laugh more than I’ve been able to since this all went down. Thank you! I’m printing out your “contract” and I’m going to reread it every day (maybe thrice daily) until I can see him in his true light.
Nettie,
at risk of repeating myself… it’s good to see him in a true light but what I found was that it was way more helpful to see *me* in a true light, i.e. that I am actually worth way more than ‘this’. turn your focus on to you and who you are – he doesn’t matter – you do!
Oh Shinestar..
I am so sorry to read this..
You said 5 months of No contact sorta….Thats like Sorta Being in a realtionship,or sorta ending it..
The commitment to do either was no there..
What he needed by sending you that email,was too see of you were still invested…And once you quickly came too,he is off again.
Its a controlthing Shine,Its not about you,Its about them..
You went NC for a reason,ask yourself why?
If things were going great the first time,chances are you would not be here asking this!
Let this Guy go,Seriously go NO CONTACT this time around..And stick to it,there is no room for sorta,and when and if you get the desperate email,close it down,its just further hurt and rejection…
Shine,
i just went through this same thing in November. he came to me, and as soon as I dropped my guard he backpedaled and it looked like i was chasing him as i tried to get some clarity. I was like, how did he turn the tables on me like that?? And also i blamed myself for pushing, for asking hard questions, for “scaring him off.”
I struggle also to understand how that makes *me* emotionally unavailable, when i feel i am available but have been tricked. But i think it’s the big picture: when we have a sense of someone’s patterns and we re-engage hoping for a new outcome, we are choosing to be available to someone who has proven they are not, and that is a sort of *logistical* unavailability because we have our emotions tied up in a no-win situation and thus are not available to someone who would or could step up for real.
But I’d be interested in others’ perspectives on this.
“But i think it’s the big picture: when we have a sense of someone’s patterns and we re-engage hoping for a new outcome, we are choosing to be available to someone who has proven they are not, and that is a sort of *logistical* unavailability because we have our emotions tied up in a no-win situation and thus are not available to someone who would or could step up for real.”
I had to read your paragraph several times because it rings so true to me, and I’ve been trying to figure out if I even fit in here. If it rings true, then maybe I do.
Ixnay, your reply has made so much sense to me. Yes it is exactly the same situation and I have been pushing for answers and actions to the promises he has made and I’m now blaming myself for the demise of this, yet again short lived reunion. He turns everything around that I say and makes me feel guilty for my every action, even down to the time I go to bed or something I say in innocence – I just cannot do right for doing wrong. It is control and he is very controlling with all aspects of our relationship.
It’s crazy to think that after such a short time of blowing hotter than a coal fire he can switch to ice. Not even 3 weeks ffs.
We spoke last night,I tried to make arrangements for next week with him, answers were “maybe, we’ll see, why do we need to make plans?” Obviously it agitated me but I stayed cool and left. He then sent me a text saying along the lines of “We need to talk, he is sick of getting questioned”……….We’re meeting later. What do I say?, How do I act?, Do I not go?
It’s clear what he is going to do again, but how do I handle this? What do I say? I can be weak, of course that is evident after falling for his lies again. I turns out during our break last time his ex was on the scene so that is my only guess that’s she is back and I am no longer of use’
I actually feel numb to all of this now.
Shine,
He’s in full retreat mode and there is nothing you can do or say because he’s not retreating due to how you relate to him but because it’s his pattern and M.O.
The only power you have here is in how you choose to react, not because how you react could “make” him step up to his promises, but because it’s very important that you not give yourself ANYTHING to reproach yourself for later. “Oh, if only I hadn’t said x, y, z, or cried or whatever, he wouldn’t have been scared off…” You know the drill.
I’d say go, and let him do the talking, stay calm, and if he gives you the “I’m confused/gonna be really busy..” stuff, it’s up to you whether you want to ask straight-up if there’s someone else in the picture or if you’d reproach yourself later for “asking more questions.”
Once they frame it as that it’s *your* desire to get clarity that is pushing them away, they’ve placed you in a catch-22 where you agree to let things be ambiguous and non-committal in hopes of getting commitment.
If this guy had actually been available when he was blowing hot for 3 weeks, he would have welcomed the chance to reassure you and provide you the clarity you sought.
I hope things go as well as possible today for you, but by that I mean *for you* — that you stay calm, speak with integrity, and let his inability to be consistent remain HIS instead of blaming it on anything you do or don’t do or say. Let him tell you who he is. You know already, of course, but this is suck it and see time, so observe like he is a character in a movie. (((Shine)))
Shinestar
I wouldn’t go. He invites you BY TEXT (fail), he’s aggressive (fail) and you know what he’s going to do (fail).
what do you hope to achieve and how likely is it?
Shine, I agree it’s a piece of mindfckery but I’m thinking’What if you go and he backs off further, switches again…phew?’
How will you be then…?
Just not sure that you need to put yourself through this, make it about you, quit the search on his motives/behaviour.
Every micro analysis you engage in with this guy ties you tighter to him and the situation.
You’ve been through crap, you feel numb/crap and he’s giving you lazy communication.
I deferred facing outcome in my own situation and wished I hadn’t.
I wouldn’t go. I feel for you, but I wouldn’t go.
Shinestar, I agree with grace. You know already what he is going to say to you and I would not give him the satisfaction of turning up. At one of the get togethers after one of the break ups with my last ex ” to Talk” he actually remarked with a satisfied smirk on his face that I lost weight ( yes, I was stressed to the eyeballs) I was provding him with a hell of an ego boost, at my expense and he loved it. He`s been bugging me by stupid texts for a year, probably missing the adoration. No, not our job to show them that they are special. Don`t do it to yourself.
You write him this, exactly as I am writing:
“When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
You text, I text back.
You are sick of being ‘questioned’ you say?
Well, where have I ‘questioned’ you? Trying to make plans when you are in a relationship is not questioning.
But, as you say that I ‘question’ you, and that this is my ‘pattern’, I’ll live up to your expectations of me…with this question:
We’re both seeing other people; right?”
DONE. FINITO.
Make him eat his own asshole words.
AND YOU DON’T SEE HIM, EVER AGAIN IDEALLY.
BUT IF YOU DO, THEN ONLY IN RESPONSE TO MANY-A-PHONE-CALL WHERE HE IS VERRRRY APOLOGETIC.
Touche, my (asshole) friend. Touche!
shinestar, i would love to tell you that iv been in the exact same position. so here’s whats going to happen to you. at this stage he doesn’t know what he wants/he’s confused, tormented blah blah blah and his ego is getting a big boost coz it seems like you are chasing him now. and you are because you are emotionally connected to him, in your heart you want to give him another chance.he knows he has you.so he has the upper hand which allows him to play with you. in playing with you, you are allowing him to reject you yet again… if you do accept him back, he’s not going to give you what you want ultimately so then you”re going to have a massive fight and everything is going to end very badly.
“How is this possible? I mean he came to me!” you say, my so called ex came to me telling me things are going to change. did they?, no, the situation was made worse and instead of parting in a peaceful way, we parted in a bad way.
again i stick to the idea that if a man wants you, you will know it and he wont be causing all this drama and bullshit. make it your motto to flush complicated , bullshit men. you have a life to lead, a good life without dealing with men’s nonsense and uncertainty.
I agree.
They were blowing hot, seemed so interested and then IT FELL OFF A CLIFF.
What happened? Suddenly the rug disappears.
Hi. This blog was written for me and so appropriate. I just pushed the flush lever and have been feeling bad about hurting someone. But after reading this blog I realise that I have been hurt my him and by myself. I need to protect, love and trust myself more. Is there still time to make a New Years resolution?
sure.. chinese new year was last Monday, and Tibetan new year is coming up : )
I hadn’t heard about gaslighting either. But I have experienced it with my first boyfriend. At a certain moment I was so convinced he was cheating on me. Rumours, strange behaviour, him getting really angry when I got sick one day and had to stay at home for a couple of days (can you imagine that!? freaking out and getting all frustrated when you’re gf is ill?)
So I decided to confront him, in a very calm way. He got so mad, telling me I was a horrible person for accusing him of doing things like that! Saying that he never cheated on me, and that he never would. Saying it really hurt, my not trusting him. So in the end it was me who ended up feeling really guilty.
After a while we split up anyway. And only then I discovered that he indeed cheated on me. Many a times.
This is a long time ago. I don’t give this any thought anymore. Except now, when I read about the gaslighting thing. I think it’s one of the scariest things people can do to eachother.
ps: I’m new here, and so grateful I found this blog. Thank you all for being and sharing here 🙂
What a disgusting man!
It’s always suspicious when one becomes disproportionately angry upon confrontation. Why get so defensive?
I would have dumped him for his behavior while you were sick alone. Pure selfishness and a lack of empathy.
Hi Amy
Yeah, I know.. But I was 24 back then, and although I’m not a relationship expert now – I wouldn’t be here if I were 😉 – I do know better. I still get involved with EUM unfortunately, but I wouldn’t let what I described above happen to me anymore. No way!
And you’re absolutely right: it’s a red flag when someone gets so angry and defensive over something they claim they didn’t do.
Ahhhh! Exactly what Mr. Landlord did when I started saying he wasn’t following through and I couldn’t trust what he said. “Well, my feelings for you have changed, because I can’t be with a woman who doesn’t trust me. You suck all of the love out of ‘I love you'” is what he told me when he broke it off with me that time. Do not believe this stuff, ladies. It’s cruel gaslighting and you can recognize it now, right???? I will. Thanks, Natalie.
“You suck all of the love out of ‘I love you’”!!
That from a lying, cheating, using, abusing asshole! Pfft.
Just goes to show, these people need to be stopped in their tracks – at the first sign of deception everything should stop – and nothing else whatever should be discussed with them – if anything at all!. If we did this, these clowns would not get to the point where they are even afforded the airtime to spout this kind of twisted baloney (above).
I know I am replying late but..OMG!, my a/c told me almost the same thing!! He was untrustworthy so I was wrong for seeing him as he really was. Huh? What?His final attempts at manipulation, and double talk and blaming the victim. Twists my head around how he almost came out and said ‘I’m a cheat. Respect that’.
Ok…I’ve been dealing with a multitude of these issues in the past several years…ultimately, finding that what I actually do in my mind is try to make the man expressing interest in me, (whether he be an assclown, a liar, a cheater or just plain emotionally stunted), be what I need him to be. Anything that is in direct opposition to what I need him to be is denied, rationalized, twisted, ignored, minimized, etc. I have lead each one of them down the path of relationship, only to find that while they were willing to tag along, they weren’t all that into participating at a meaningful level. What I have learned through all of this is that they are who they are and in many ways we actually are culpible. We helped to create these monsters by being so willing to understand them, deny their wrongdoings, take them back, pursue them, offer them sex without commitment, we are like a bunch of girls with crushes at a Junior High dance. We think that if we keep waiting for them to ask us, we’ll never get to dance. Well, I personally am tired of the BS excuses and wishy washy mentality in the dating world. Who neutered all the men!????
What a fantastic article!!!!! I have been thinking about it and sharing it with others since I read it yesterday.
“Honesty involves being prepared to hear and say things that make you uncomfortable, with respect. It also includes respecting reality.”
Amazingly put – I remember learning how to get honest with others and myself, knew I was “cash register” honest, but always knew some how I still BS’d myself with self honesty – the peeling of the onion!!
Thank you Nat for such a concise expression of how dishonest we can still be with ourselves without realizing it – thank you, thank you, thank you!
at a meditation talk the other day, it finally clicked for me that the Buddhist idea of “wise view” is all about seeing things as they are, not as I wish they would be or think they should be, and “wise action” is about acting on what’s true instead of my deluded, wishful version. It’s the Zen version of the No BS Diet!
I got a letter from my ex recently, asking to see me. I’m not going to respond, but it is a great opportunity to practice all that I’ve learned in the past 7 months since being NC with him. I wanted to think he is a caring, loving person who can give me the relationship I want once he sorts himself out. When I acted on that delusion, I made myself miserable.
Although it was super painful in the short term, when I acted on the truth of the situation, it led to me learning, growing, and being much happier and more self aware. Now I would like to think I’m over it, it’s possible to be friends, what harm could it do to just meet up for a cup of coffee? But I know this is just another fantasy of mine and if I act on it I’ll be walking back into that burning building and wondering why I get singed. Truth is, I’m not totally over him and it’s not safe for me to see him again or be in contact. It may never be. I still kind of wish it were otherwise, but being able to recognize and then act on what’s true is such a powerful freedom!
I was thinking about my own behavior over the course of the relationship and cringing at how really inauthentic I had been by not honoring/expressing/acting upon my true feelings and thoughts. I found this definition of Authentic: “worthy of acceptance or belief as conforming to or based on fact” and that is a new top line goal for me – to be more authentic myself and to judge situations and people in my life with that word, too.
In any & all types of relationships in my life, the #1 thing that I will NOT tolerate is lying. If someone lies, I either take the person to task – stop, look, listen and do not proceed until fully rectified – or cut them off completely. If one wants respect, then respect me by not lying. As far as lying to myself, I don’t do that anymore. It took a long time, but better late than never.
Hi everyone. I just wanted to thank you for all your advice. I’m sorry I haven’t got back sooner but here I am with some good news. I did and didn’t take your advice, for a start I went to see him. Actually it wasn’t what I thought. He was a nice as can be and said we can do this but we have to slow things down. I listened and listened to him slowly taking away everything he had promised me such a short time ago. Controlling the situation to suit him and basically having me where he wants me on his terms and guess what. I said no! I said its all or nothing and nothing is that this relationship is so go. He went and that is that. You know the thing is I feel content. So very content, morris than I have done for ages. This is it, this is the reason we got back together as its made me really realise what a lying jerk he is.
I have though about the fact I may be in shock or denial as it is only day2 but it really feels different his time. Time will tell but for now I’m enjoying this feeling. I am a very strong believer in things happening for a reason so maybe they was the reason
Here’s hoping to a brighter future…..
Thank you for being here for me.
I love your insight. It confirms things for me in so many ways; that my 6th-sense feeling is always right. I used to go against my instincts and make excuses, but not anymore. I just ended a 6-week dating experience. I had a feeling something was off but couldn’t pinpoint it. Then I caught him lying about his age! He said he was 3 yrs younger and blamed it on his previous career, that everyone lied in that industry and he didn’t think I’d go out with an older guy. A yr ago I might have reasoned/accepted his lie, but these days no way! I ended it immediately. He is still trying to hang on. I can see right through his behavior. He keeps telling me he was going to take me here and there; that he bought me this and that. I think he’s just trying to say, “see what you’re missing, pretend I’m not a liar and come back to me!” At one point he even tried to tell me that I was the liar and that I was unforgiving because I would not accept his lie. The way I see it is I am saving myself from a lifetime of deceit, future faking, and one big a**clown! 🙂 After reading your article I feel even more confident about my decision to walk away.
Thank you so much for this forum, As I read the article about lying it became very clear to me that I am accepting a relationship based on lies. I’ve been “desperate’ to be “loved” after a 15 yr sabbatical from dating, and too trusting. The individual I date says one thing and does another, always has, but I keep going on… hoping things will change. I have cried more in one yr that I have in twenty due to all of the lying, manipulations, and being accused of not trusting. This blog is wonderful, I will continue to read all of the articles , as each one ‘fits’ my situation to a tee. I just have not been able to end the relationship and face the facts.
There is a distinct pattern here is that is really frightening and I hope that those of you who have been with men like this, will google about psychopaths, narcissists and sociopaths. We are not suppose to “diagnose” or “label” people, but when it comes to pathological behavior, you don’t have to have a “label” or “diagnosis” to know what it is and most pathological men LIKE harming other women/men so they don’t bother with therapy because they don’t believe they have a problem. Some of the things your men have said, sound like they’re playing out of the same pathological play book. These men are very dangerous and the stealth ones very much so. Here’s what you look for: Lack of empathy, remorse and guilt. Puts the relationship on fast track immediately and claims you as “soul mate” status until you’re HOOKED (and yes, some of them DO want to move in, get married asap so you don’t question their motives but they get what they want, power, sex, money, etc. Their ENTIRE luring/honeymoon stage is nothing but lies, manipulations. When you’re hooked, then they do the “bait and switch”, the classical WTF moment. RUN at this time. It takes courage because most women will NOT run, they will CLING and STAY. I know ladies, because I’ve been with two pathological men. In the end, what it came down to, was that I had no self respect, loss of moral compass, confusion, severe abuse and pain. Not worth handsome, charm, great sex. Trust your gut. No sex for at least six months to a year. Not many pathological assholes can wait that long without their mask slipping. Respect yourselves. What’s the damned rush? LOVE yourselves enough to be ALONE and take it SLOOOOW if a man shows up in your life. I’ve been out of pathological relationship for 15 months and it is BLISS to finally live in PEACE, but I also have a chronic illness and PTSD from the severe abuse. It’s not worth it. Part of why I love Natalie’s stuff is because she is describing PATHOLOGICAL behavior in many of her posts, without calling it that. But that’s what it is, at least for the losers of this magnitude. God bless!