“So will you be seeing her again?” I asked, curious, because I know that based on the many tales from readers, that if this was a woman, she’d likely be giving the benefit of the doubt. “No way man! I told her it’s like JLS (a UK boy band) said – ‘You only get one shot!’…” which had me cringing and laughing at the downright cheesiness of it. If she wasn’t going to blow him out before, she likely would have after that line…
As I read through various tales this week including being stood up in the same way by the same person a couple of times, being disappeared on, lied to, umpteen chances to get back together, and even knocked about repeatedly, it reminded me that if we gave what is outright shady behaviour just one shot, how different our lives would be. My encyclopedia of dodgy relationship experiences would become A4 or even postcard sized.
Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, give someone the chance to reject you more than once, especially with obviously disrespectful and unhealthy behaviour.
While there are some things that can appear ‘confusing’, there’s nothing confusing about open and shut cases of assholery. And it’s critical that you don’t focus on them rejecting you as if you’ve been and done something to warrant their behaviour; it’s not about you. To focus on it to that level of granular detail is to take responsibility for other people’s behaviour. What you need to take responsibility for is letting them do it more than once.
Yeah I know it’s nice to give second chances, but you don’t give second chances to shady stuff, which basically falls into at best code amber and at it’s very worst code red.
Someone that will stand you up once, will stand you up twice.
Someone that will disappear once, will disappear twice, and more if you allow them to.
Someone that will lie to you in order to weasel their way into your life or back into it, will lie again. And again.
Someone that will keep drip, drip, dripping the truth to you, will keep drip, drip, dripping it, even after they’ve told you that you have the ‘whole truth’.
If they lay a fricking hand on you or pull any other abusive behaviour, you can be damn sure that they’ll pull it again. Why gamble at the roulette table? You might think you’re ‘different’ to other people that are being abused or have rationalised that it was an ‘off day’ or it wouldn’t have happened if you’d been or done different. It would have. Maybe not that day, maybe not the following, but soon.
If they can make very little effort but manage to get a shag, an ego stroke and a shoulder to lean on, they’ll be the person of diminishing returns if they’re allowed to have more airtime in your life.
They’re just not that special.
Stop giving people a chance to ‘prove’ themselves to be better than what they’ve been. You’re not God or a higher power – it’s not you that gets to judge them or have them redeem themselves. Let them go and ‘redeem’ themselves elsewhere!
Stop thinking up reasons as to why someone would pull this rinky dink behaviour. Stop blaming yourself because the truth is, no person, male or female that engages in open and shut cases of assholic behaviour is worthy of your time, energy, or love, never mind the steam off your pee.
Yes, they might have had some poor experiences that you can empathise with, but you know what? That’s not an excuse. It’s a possible reason, but it doesn’t excuse their behaviour. One shot. If more people that behaved in these ways only had one, they’d be forced to address their behaviour because there would be serious consequences.
It frightens me how receptive we can be. And let me give it to you straight: If someone asks you out and while dating they pull some of this stuff, it’s pointless giving them another chance. Just like when a friend’s ex said “Just give me a week!” when she broke it off with him after he messed her about for 8 years, what the frick could he prove or do in a week? What is another date going to do?
You’re not that desperate.
Stop being curious about someone that you’ve been around for a hot minute that’s already showing their arse, or someone that’s already had their one shot (or even more) at disrespecting you.
They’re not going to make you the exception to their rule. They’re not.
If they’ve had two shots or more, they know that they don’t have to. Life isn’t a fairy tale and as I explained to a reader, there’s no fairy tale or any story that you want to tell your kids, family, friends, or an acquaintance: “Oh we met when they stood me up several times but I stuck it out until they loved me” or “We were shagging while they were married and I waited and waited and waited and finally, they left…OK they were thrown out”, or “We used to text, email, and have sex from time to time. We finally got it together when they’d run out of other options. Look at us now eh?” or even “They used to punch, kick, and bite me over not emptying the dishwasher but we got there in the end.” What the what now?
Stop being territorial. The amount of women I hear from that are losing their minds over someone they’ve only just met or haven’t dated that’s messed them around is scary. Do you know why they give them another shot? They’re worried that their ‘prince’ could be the person that just disrespected them or is vaguely interested, and are afraid some other woman is going to snap them up. There are sharks out there waiting to sniff around the desperation blood.
Don’t allow someone to have more than one opportunity to reject or abuse you. You’re not a charity or a rehabilitation unit for young offenders. If they reject or abuse you, bounce, walk, and basically don’t look back.
Your thoughts?
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Spot on Nat! I took a lot and it’s all on me…and I used it to grow. No regrets…it was how it was and is how it is…no need to backtrack…no need to go back and see…yep…I have it now…and I do believe in loving and letting go and wishing well…but what I want now is someone who is also experienced and knowledgeable…a true heart, spirit, and mind connection…a true partner…yes Ma’am…done and ready… I’m living and happy and love is around me with those I love and whom I love. Oh, yes, a MONOGAMOUS and TRUSTING and TRUSTWORTHY male please, or not at all. Peace.
Amen Leisha. You sound happy and at peace – you know what you want. Not because you have a long list – you just want someone that reflects how you feel about you. Yay!
Exactly Natalie…Love you! The no-bs diet is awesome…I deal with things as they surface…own it…and set it free!
This is a fantastic post – oh why didn’t I start reading this blog three years ago? (although then I wouldn’t have my son… fate can be damn obstreperous at times).
“You’re not a charity or a rehabilitation unit for young offenders”.
I like this. My line these days is “I am not a mental health professional and even if I was I wouldn’t choose to practice in my private life”.
Thank you 🙂
yoghurt,
I love what you said about not practicing (mental health care service) in your personal life. About 10 years ago I borrowed the DSMV – Diagnostic Manual for Mental Health. I am not a professional, but with that book charted out the primary and secondary axis of a man I was dating – and then I left him (bounced). No pain, no regret, and no time wasted. I should have bought a copy of that book… could have saved myself months of what I just went through. …but the real reason I rationalized my current X’s behavior & mental composition: I was lonely and more than ready for a man’s touch and interaction. He was tall, dark, handsome, clever, intensely sexy & I wanted all of those parts and put up with his dark-side DARK-SIDE, until I could not take anymore of it. (bye-bye apealling characteristics…will miss you).
I refuse to loose my mental health and now must focus on my mental health. I wonder what I would chart on myself today.?
The dark side is the side they have to own and it obviously has it’s own “rewards”…it’s a choice thing…you can love someone at a distance…but you can’t fix ’em…it’s not our place to do so…they have to own their issues and we need to stop enabling them…IMO our business is living a happy and healthy life and address our own issues so that we increase the light not assist the darkness…
Yoghurt,
“This is a fantastic post – oh why didn’t I start reading this blog three years ago? (although then I wouldn’t have my son… fate can be damn obstreperous at times).”
You may have had a different son (or daughter) that you were raising together with a man who loved, cherished, valued and respected you. However, that’s neither here nor there. The best thing to do now is to find that man who will love both you and your son, and be a wonderful life partner 🙂
You’re welcome Yoghurt. Let your ex be rehabilitated elsewhere 😉
I absolutely love reading your stuff, it helps people regain their lost self esteem over ‘relationships’. I quite agree that there’s no need to give people a chance over and over again.
Thanks Huda. It’s awful to lose your self-esteem in someone and the less chances they have to continue erode it.
This entry has come at just the right time for me. Given me a much-needed head check because I was about to let myself get sucked in during a moment of weakness. No more daydreams about how the situation might change if he gets one more shot!!!
I’m watching you Cat – haha 😉
I agree with Natasha, Nat – this is one of your best. Exactly right on all counts. “Stop being so territorial” – God, if we women could just grasp this one!
Thanks Heather – I got your mail and will mail you in the morning!
One of your best Nat! When I was contemplating giving my ex another shot the last time around, one of my guy friends said to me, “Yeah, sometimes assholes see the light. In the movies. In the real world, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. I’d tread carefully girl.” When of course the dude turned out not to be “changed” at all – yes, he texted more often and even picked up the phone to SPEAK on a rare occasions (rare occasions = when he wanted to complain about something so I could cheer him up), and he fronted like we were “dating” – but, in a lot of ways, he treated me even worse than before, as weird as that sounds.
I did the whole blaming myself thing and it was a massive waste – honestly, it makes me sad now that I thought so little of myself that I believed it was all my fault that someone chose to behave that way. It took that final time of “putting my hand in the fire” to learn a big lesson about trying to prove myself to someone that would have treated me like crap ANYWAY.
As my mother said when I first went NC and was, frankly, a bit of a hot mess, “You’re so focused on thinking that you weren’t good enough for this guy. The fact that he was awful enough to go ahead and treat you like you weren’t good enough for him is something you should be taking as a big sign that he’s not good enough for YOU.” Amen!
“The fact that he was awful enough to go ahead and treat you like you weren’t good enough for him is something you should be taking as a big sign that he’s not good enough for YOU.”
Ooooh, I like your Momma! Amen indeed.
Natasha,
I like what your mother said – she’s a wise one! So true. hold on to that. I still have sudden sinking feelings of ‘he didn’t think I was good enough for him’ but am quick to stifle that as I now recognise it as the same old self-harming clawing need for validation and sense of worthlessness at being denied it but I continue to battle against it almost very day and I constantly remind myself that he, actually, was not good enough for me, but it’s still hard to feel that fact emotionally.
Love the quote at the end!
Natasha,
“The fact that he was awful enough to go ahead and treat you like you weren’t good enough for him is something you should be taking as a big sign that he’s not good enough for YOU.”
Your mother is a very wise woman 🙂
Your mother is smart Natasha! That’s very good advice.
Natasha,
My mom said the same thing to me! And my therapist daid the EXACT same thing your guy friend said. It’s helped me to have trust in the people who care about me. When I see my relationship through their eyes I don’t blame myself as much.
Your mother is very wise Natasha – in fact both of your parents are. Your ex had way too many shots but he’s recently discovered that he’s shots have run out. He’s lucky I can’t send a virtual tranquillizer injection and give him a shot in the bum!
He is lucky indeed! Otherwise, the next ridiculous text I’d get would be, “Owwwwww! My ARSE!” Considering what a pain in the ass he truly is, it would really be poetic justice 😉
“Stop blaming yourself because the truth is, no person, male or female that engages in open and shut cases of assholic behaviour is worthy of your time, energy, or love, never mind the steam off your pee.”
Bless you, Nat, for this affirming post that I so needed right now. Finally NC on my alcoholic nomad who has returned south several states away for the winter (like the birds), again disappearing physically, emotionally and spiritually. You’re so right, Nat, when you say that if they disappear once, they will disappear again and again…I’ve been going through the painful internal dialogue of, “He left because you’re too old, too fat, too needy, too color-coordinated, too this, too that…” When I told him that I didn’t want him to go (cringe), his reply was, “I know you don’t want me to go but I’m going…what are you expecting here?” Duh, to be treated like a person of value, worthy of care & respect!
@ Natasha and her Mom
Besides his FOCR drinking, he was awful enough to keep me hanging around, dictate our meetings solely on his terms, get physically intimate with me and even then, still disappear/withdraw ~ which proves HE is NOT the one who is too good for ME…He’s gone & that’s a good thing.
Yes ladies, my momma knows what she’s talking about! If you really think about it, what decent person goes around saying, “So and so isn’t worth treating respectfully. I’m going to hang around and use them, because it’s my right to do so.”? It’s actually pretty sick, when you get right down to it. These guys really beg the question, “Why, oh why, in the name of all that is sacred, should I care what the hell you think of me?” Personally, I couldn’t care less that my ex doesn’t respect me, because I don’t respect him!
So True. Even if you overlook just “one” incident…you are on a path to – Wash Rinse Repeat. Just not worth the hassle…
Absolutely Max, because allowing someone to stand you up, disappear, lie, beat etc is like declaring yourself open for bad business.
All right, I’m going to go against the main stream here.
It’s true we all need to have boundaries, and firm ones. But – frankly – boundaries should also be *few* as in adult boundaries as opposed to a laundry list of requirements we mislabel as boundaries.
Another point I dissent on is, people “aren’t going to change”. I have. I assume others can as well. True, we shouldn’t force or even ask people to change. But assuming they can’t or won’t is bitter and deceptive.
I’m struggling to remain romantic and open hearted despite having been wounded by a narcissist. I don’t think that assuming the worst of people is going to do me any good. If anything, the narcissist will finally win, making me negative, pessimistic and afraid that people are all there to “get me” anytime.
Granted, jerks exist. But so do people with ADHD (who forget appointments, dates, anniversaries and blurt out what they think), mood swings, pet peeves and – simply put – a bad day. How fair is it to judge a person after ONE shot? It isn’t, not in my book.
Which is why this post doesn’t help me.
Rosanna, I think what Nat means is that it’s about giving people another chance after they’ve rejected you/engaged in behavior that makes your friends say, “What a JACKASS.”, i.e. the disappearing acts, the standing you up, the jerking you around, etc. We all have “off days”, but “off days” don’t make decent people disrespect you and you’ll know it’s an “off day” because the rest of their behavior has been respectful.
As far as the ADHD and things like depression, anxiety, etc. – that depends on whether they are taking steps to deal with it. If I’m dating someone that struggles with depression and is doing what they need to do to take care of themselves, totally fine, but if they are rude or staight-up mean to me and try and blame it on being depressed, that’s an “Oh, hell no”. What you’re willing to put up with is up to you to decide, but in general, never make excuses for outright disrespectful behavior and certainly don’t make excuses for anyone that they haven’t made for themselves. Hope this helps!
“What you’re willing to put up with is up to you to decide, but in general, never make excuses for outright disrespectful behavior and certainly don’t make excuses for anyone that they haven’t made for themselves.” spot on.
I know of quite a few people that have or have had depression. When they have been unable to meet someone’s needs, be reliable etc, even they had the foresight to step back. Not one of them ever abused anybody. You are so right and the funny thing is, people are making excuses even before something has happened! It’s like “If anything goes wrong, it’s because they have ADHD or are busy/scared/shy/have an itchy willy or whatever”. That’s just bs!
So true! My ex, who was always fronting about being depressed about something, informed me after engaging in blatant assholery that he was “lost and needed to find himself'”.
I said, “Well, no wonder you can’t find yourself, what with being so busy losing yourself in other women’s ladyparts while stringing me along. Try a trail of breadcrumbs next time.”
Natasha
This is so worth another posting:
“I said, “Well, no wonder you can’t find yourself, what with being so busy losing yourself in other women’s ladyparts while stringing me along. Try a trail of breadcrumbs next time.”
Thanks so much.
Laughing my head off!! 🙂 🙂
Five minute later: Still laughing my head off! 🙂 🙂
Natasha,
Classic!! 🙂
Glad you like it ladies!! I attempted to be the bigger person for about 3 1/2 minutes and then, I couldn’t help myself, it was time for a looooooow blow haha! As Nat says, these guys will never give you the fairytale ending. …who ever heard of Hansel & Assclown?!
Never got the itchy willy excuse. Got all the others, but not that one. LOL!!
Rossana
I think the point is not giving another chance to people that reject you in a very shady way, not in general. I do think most people deserve second chances but I have experienced situations were they don’t, and anyway we give them second chances just to get rejected in a more humiliating way. IMHO
That’s totally it Allie. I gave an ex another chance after he verbally abused me and made me out to be crazy, point blank lying to my face on something he was caught out on. Not long after he slammed a door and hit my wrist, drove like a maniac through the streets where I feared for my life, verbally abused me again and put on a child’s voice and pretended to be me being afraid of my parents shouting, and then when caught out on that lie, blaming me for telling the lie. Never again.
Rosanna, I think this is something you can learn with experience. Sure, there are people who have a bad day and things do come up. After a while though, you start to recognize bs excuses from legitimate ones. When I was online dating, I’d usually give one pass for bad behavior- provided he was apologetic and had a reasonable excuse. Sure, there’s a chance that two things in a row could happen legitimately, but the probabilities become really miniscule at that point.
Sometimes it’s hard to enforce that when the person behaving badly is very attractive and/or we’ve already built up a romantic fantasy about him. That’s why the boundaries are so important. One-off behaviors are one thing- it’s the patterns that Natalie is warning about, and those take surprisingly little time to establish.
Maybe some of the confusion is about what is significant and not. Some women are overly picky and will shut a guy down over something small (he didn’t open the car door for me) when all of the important stuff is in place (he’s generally considerate and trustworthy). I guess I would say the important things are general reliability (he does what he says he will) and respectful, considerate behavior (he treats you as someone important to him, and takes your feelings into account). Everything else is gravy.
What Natalie says is true: YOU ARE NOT THAT DESPERATE. There are a lot of great guys out there who will treat you well, so don’t waste your time on the ones that don’t.
Great comment Christina. Really one shot is code red, and two to three shots is code amber behaviours. All the other stuff falls into the blurred zone but becomes less so if there becomes the presence of *other* things that are less than appropriate. Not opening a door isn’t rejection or abuse – it’s just not opening a door. It could be manners or it could be an accident but it’s probably not earth shattering. What I do find though is that people are very flushy and picky over non critical stuff and rolled out like a doormat for obviously disrespectful and abusive behaviour.
Christina and Natalie are right, gentlemanly etiquette is really not the be-all and end-all sign of a decent man. My ex was very hot on all the door-opening, walking on the outside of the pavement and holding out my coat for me etc – indeed he made quite a thing of drawing my attention to it (perhaps he Doth Protesteth Too Much as Natalie puts it?), and he said his grandfather used to hit him if he didn’t show “good manners”. Didn’t stop him from progressively making me feel like a low-priority nuisance who didn’t deserve anything more than crumbs of attention by the end of a year, though. How’s that for manners? All those etiquette-laden gestures can be a bit of a red herring, IMHO. Nice to have, but nowhere near a top priority in the bigger scheme of behaving decently to others.
Radio
“low priority nuisance” – love (and will remember) that expression. That was how ex EUM made me feel about 80% of the time. Oh dear…. what was I thinking?
I totally agree with the gentleman like gestures, i.e., opening the car door, walking on the outside of the pavement, and pulling out the chair. Most men recognize that women will perceive them as being a great catch if they are doing theses very minor gestures. This is a big part of the “playbook of the assholes.
But, if someone disappears, stands you up, that is just plain unforgivable, even if they are the perfect so-called gentleman.
“Christina and Natalie are right, gentlemanly etiquette is really not the be-all and end-all sign of a decent man. My ex was very hot on all the door-opening, walking on the outside of the pavement and holding out my coat for me etc – indeed he made quite a thing of drawing my attention to it (perhaps he Doth Protesteth Too Much as Natalie puts it?)”
Yup, RadioGirl, same thing with my ex too. He also fronted like he was a great defender of women in general haha! Errrrr, this is the same guy that, once he was done using me for the umpteenth time, decided to slink out of it by fronting like my religion was a big ol’ turnoff and disappearing during the holidays. What a gentleman.
“Your not a charity or a rehabilitation unit for young offenders”
That is one liner gold !
Are you talking to me personally Natalie ? The cap fits,so i’ll wear it.
I went to a divorce recovery workshop tonight and some people were in need of this site but i’m not sure if they are ready for your straight talking yet. I shall tell them about your blog and hopefully we can come and see you when you come to Manchester.You will come to Manchester ? I can’t think of a better place for your great work, and believe me,I am no sycophant.
Hey Tanzanite – I shall be in Manchester very soon! Will let you know! x
I think it’s not about *judging* the person but figuring out whether that person is going to work for you and the relationship you want. It’s not about saying “they are bad” as much as “I don’t like that type of behavior, thus they can’t be for me.”
I agree that everyone is entitled to a bad day, but it’s simple enough to voice it and ask for a rain check. If something went wrong during the first date and you thought it didn’t reflect your normal behavior, wouldn’t you just tell the person upfront so they didn’t get you all wrong ?
Like you, I think boundaries shouldn’t be like a shopping list (“must call within three days of the first date”, “mustn’t go to the pub with his mates on football nights if I have said I didn’t like football”, etc) but more like assessing if you are being respected.
As for trying to stay open-hearted, I say it’s a good and sane thing ! Putting oneself in a highly suspicious state of mind can make one very unhappy indeed. It’s more about being attentive to what’s going on instead of making assumptions (whether it’s about them being ‘good’ or them being ‘bad’).
If you haven’t read it yet I’d advise you Natalie’s article on trust, it might help : https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/learning-to-trust-again-youve-got-to-put-out-some-trust-then-adjust-accordingly/
I think that when you know yourself pretty well, boundaries and limits included, you don’t risk much by working on the “people are good” premise. You just have to trust yourself : if you do, you’ll trust yourself to make the right decisions, and you know that you’ll opt out peacefully if they weren’t deserving of your trust to begin with.
IMO the fear of trusting others is the fear of mispleacing your trust and not getting back on your investment. But if you have good self-esteem, a small bad investment won’t put you down, you’ll just move on & forget it.
“I agree that everyone is entitled to a bad day, but it’s simple enough to voice it and ask for a rain check. If something went wrong during the first date and you thought it didn’t reflect your normal behavior, wouldn’t you just tell the person upfront so they didn’t get you all wrong ?” Absoeffinglutely Tya.
I think this situation with Rosanna highlights an extreme. There are some people if I say that it’s not all about the size, looks, money, intelligence, sexual chemistry etc, they say “So what? I’m supposed to be with an overweight/ugly/broke/stupid/boring/loveless person?” This is what is going on here. We can have some boundaries and common sense without being judgemental but ultimately, we have to make judgements and choices morning, noon, and night of every day. I judge at what point I cross the road. If I decide to hire someone, I have to evaluate each applicant – I can’t hire everyone. If someone effs me over, I’m sorry (not really) but I have to make a judgement call.
Rosanna,
am confused about what you mean by this:
“But – frankly – boundaries should also be *few* as in adult boundaries…”
I don’t think our boundaries should be few. Why should they be?
Also if you’d not waited for your narcissist to be better than he’d shown you he was able to be time and time again you would not be so wounded now. People with diagnosed problems are always going to have these problems and just cos we can chuck a label at them doesn’t mean the problems they cause are any less troublesome. My mother used to spend a lot of time asking us about my dad “do you think he really is an “alcoholic” or just a “binge drinker?” as if being able to give it its right name – or any name – (therefore a cause or reason) somehow meant the problem was not a problem any more – cos it had a reason. A rose by any other name…
I don’t think not being compassionate or forgiving to people for mistakes that they genuinely regret (for all the right reasons) or being intolerant of sometimes irritating, but human, foibles is what Nat is getting at here. Go back maybe and read some of the really quite distressing comments she’s referring to in her previous article about “when they come back saying they’ve changed” and wonder if the commentator who writes of her man kicking and biting her or the tale about the young woman whose abusive man gouged her eyes out should ever have given these guys more than ‘one shot’?
It’s not about people having a bad day – it’s about not giving disrespectful ‘dates’ a chance to disrespect you twice; it’s about not going back to the same source of painful rejection to offer him (or her) another chance to reject you again (as they’d be likely to do cos they’ve done it once already and you have no reason whatever to think they have suddenly morphed into a respectful person) and at worst not to give anyone another shot at criminally assaulting you.
Yes, people can change but not for someone they have rejected, disrespected or assaulted – we shouldn’t hope they will change *for us*. People will only change for their own sake and only if they feel the need; if they recognise and experience the consequences of their own behaviour – we should not just assume this transformation might miraculously have occurred while our back was turned for five minutes.
Your whole comment was brilliant Fearless but I especially loved “we should not just assume this transformation might miraculously have occurred while our back was turned for five minutes.” I had a reader describe her ex as a “bit of an alcoholic” – what? It’s amazing how we can go to great lengths to downplay or outright blackout the actions of others. I have a serious issue with abuse being suggested as something that people should give more chances to. I’m reminded of Cherry in the previous comments. Many abusers feel very contrite and appear to be apologetic and then gradually shift the blame to the victim. These same people are often gotten away from and then they worm their way back in with big promises. Cherry’s abuser has claimed to have changed numerous times and abused her numerous times. There are many Cherry’s out there.
Thanks Nat. I was trying to temper my response but I feel the same way as you about this:
“I have a serious issue with abuse being suggested as something that people should give more chances to.”
If I take a shortcut home up a dark alley and get mugged and battered on the way, I’m not giving that alleyway another chance to maybe offer me safe passage – am taking the long way home after that – every time!
@Rosanna
Like you, I prefer to give other people the benefit of the doubt, instead of just writing them off after one incident.
But I think that taken to its extreme, it is simply misplaced trust, empathy, understanding, and a naive willingness to compromise or to be in denial as to what is going on in reality. I don’t think NML’s post is advocating cynicism, or for us to turn into nazi-daters with a draconian lists of dos and don’ts and corresponding penalties.
I’m sorry that you were wounded by a narcissist and I relate to how nasty and harrowing that experience was. I don’t know if did research on NPD but practically all the sites/psychologists would affirm the fact that Narcissists seldom change, there is something static in their characters and like all people with personality disorders– it’s the perpetuation of a mode, a compulsive behaviour one cannot break away from. Granted, people have their off-days/crises, but Narcissists will always and consistently be lacking in accountability and empathy.
It’s really not about judging a person at the end of the day, but exercising rationality and sound choices, in choosing whether or not to remain or stay invested in a toxic person/situation.
Thanks JadeSesame. Narcissists are the type of people you distance yourself or cut off from, especially when they’ve wreaked havoc in your life. You are right about the major empathy and accountability issue – it makes a healthy relationship impossible with them. “It’s really not about judging a person at the end of the day, but exercising rationality and sound choices, in choosing whether or not to remain or stay invested in a toxic person/situation.” – Amen.
Rosanna, Natalie actually talks about this very thing in her own story. How she projected her past AC experience on her now bf when he fell asleep after golfing and seemed to have disappeared/stood her up. The difference is he was a guy who otherwise behaved consistently – no amber or red flags. Of course, we all know there can be real reasons for seemingly bad behavior that really isn’t. He explained and she accepted it and it didn’t escalate into more assholery. The point is that we do usually know when we’re being treated badly/fed BS but we stick around by rationalizing/denial/whatever keeps us from having to pull the plug on the relationship and go through that pain. The pain of being treated like crap becomes familiar and less scary for many of us. We are responsible for putting ourselves in harm’s way of it happening again if we don’t pay attention and see things as they are not as how we wish them to be.
I think this post is spot on about what so many of us do out of fear of losing a man – we manage bad behavior in our own minds and teach them they can get away with treating us poorly and we’ll stick around for the bad behavior and zero effort. Boundaries are not a laundry list – they are what keeps us safe from being devalued and disrespected when we enforce them.
Wow…. Really?
Many of the good women on this site gave their guy ‘more than one chance’ or the guy repeatedly: lied, cheated, stood them up, verbally or mentally abused them…. and we are now paying for it by having to break-off the relationship, go into No Contact, and to heal ourselves.
This article and this website is not about bashing an INNOCENT MAN!
Rosanna,
“Granted, jerks exist. But so do people with ADHD (who forget appointments, dates, anniversaries and blurt out what they think), mood swings, pet peeves and – simply put – a bad day.How fair is it to judge a person after ONE shot? It isn’t, not in my book.”
It isn’t about judging the person after one shot; it’s about SEEING the person for who they really are based upon how they behave towards you and walking away if they are not treating you with love, care, and respect. As Maya Angelou so wisely said, “When someone shows you who they are the first time, believe them.”
If a person is bi-polar, has ADHD, severe mood swings, and if the fact that they had a bad day means that they feel that it’s okay to come home, yell and scream at me, or even worse: beat the crap out of me, those are deal breakers for me. Now if another woman wants to put up with that type of behavior, the more power to her. I’d rather be alone and happy than to put up with being disrespected and treated poorly any day.
I understand what you’re saying and I am not a fan of judging people either, but I’m starting to learn that being so trusting has really hurt me.
I’ve learned that when I look at the people who have really hurt me they didn’t just do it once, but multiple times. I think there has also been a theme of those people lacking in any type of contrition. When someone is late for an appointment and is really apologetic, that’s different than if someone just doesn’t show up and doesn’t give an explanation.
Rosanna, it sounds as though you’re interpreting this post as being about nice people who get stuck in traffic or who put your number into their phone wrong and so don’t call when they should. If you notice, the title says “reject,” if someone rejects you, do you really want to call that “a bad day?” NML lists behaviours like lying, disappearing (from a relationship), or even physical assault. Nowhere in this post does it say to be judgmental or picky, and if you read NML’s other posts you’ll notice she often counsels giving lots of guys – ones who might not sweep you off your feet, and don’t have you immediately hooked like your first drag of crack – the consideration of a second and third date. If you were hiring for a job you only give one interview. If the person lies, or laughs in your face, or insults you, or hits you, would you give them a second interview?
Rosanna, I had to admit that when I read your comment, I had one of those head spin moments which I recognise as that crazymaking feeling. It’s like hearing or reading something and going ‘What, what, what, what are they talking about? When, when, when did I say that?’ As someone who has been with a narcissist Rosanna, you should be more than aware how downright inappropriate that is. Thankfully this happens very rarely in my life, on or offline, but it’ll come as no surprise that I’m gonna slam down my own boundary fence right here. I also don’t appreciate you quoting me as saying something I didn’t. I don’t do mind f*ckery. I’m all for different viewpoints and there are an amazing community of people on this site that add to the subjects, share their stories, and even disagree respectfully, but the beauty of writing is that nobody can come along and crazymake and write that you said something that you didn’t.
These are all things that you think that you have projected – please don’t involve me. I at no point have said that people don’t change and what you quoted me as saying is factually incorrect and that’s before I even get on to the insult it is to people with ADHD.
ADHD doesn’t cause someone to stand you up repeatedly and then make a different arrangement to do the same thing with someone else while the person you’ve let down is waiting at home with the cooked dinner. ADHD doesn’t cause that same person to apologise for standing you up and offer a lame excuse, invite you to do the same thing again, and then cause them to stand you up. Again. It also doesn’t cause people to disappear for periods of time to come back and screw you over, nor does it cause people to beat, punch, kick, gauge out your eyes, or even kill you.
And do you know what really got me in your comment Rosanna that actually left me cold, was your coldness towards abuse. I looked in the post for the specific part where I mentioned about having an ‘off day’ because as soon as I read what you said, I actually could not believe that you would actually say what you did.
“If they lay a fricking hand on you or pull any other abusive behaviour, you can be damn sure that they’ll pull it again. Why gamble at the roulette table? You might think you’re ‘different’ to other people that are being abused or have rationalised that it was an ‘off day’ or it wouldn’t have happened if you’d been or done different. It would have. Maybe not that day, maybe not the following, but soon.”
Abuse is no joke Rosanna. No joke. It’s also not the type of thing that can be chalked up to “ADHD (who forget appointments, dates, anniversaries and blurt out what they think), mood swings, pet peeves and – simply put – a bad day.” Where on *earth* is your empathy?
Rosanna, you have to decide what you are happy to put up with, just like everyone else does. The irony of your comment is this: I’m writing about people who have given many shots to people who have done something that is inappropriate or even dangerous for a healthy relationship, and how they shouldn’t keep giving out shots. So what you’re suggesting that people *do*, people are already *doing* this. People are already giving umpteen chances, which is why they are looking to change their relationship habits and why they are reading this site, or going to therapy, or whatever. People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Nuff said.
Rosanna, Lavender and everyone else afraid to “judge”
You need to turn this on it’s head. I used to be reluctant to “judge” people but now I realise I was, in fact, being quite egotistical (in an upside down way). I believed that what I thought of them was so important. It really isnt. He/she will survive even if you don’t think much of how they treat you. They don’t care about you. At least you should.
Ask yourself, why YOU do have to be the matyr to this person? What is it about that dynamic which makes you persist in it? Don’t you have other qualities other than tolerance for crap behaviour? Trouble is, when you keep chasing your own tail of trying to be “good”, and non-judgemental you can’t ever fully realise the things that truly make you special.
It’s harsh, but I’ve lived it so feel qualified to say it, wrapping yourself up in another person’s crap is a way of insulating yourself from really putting yourself out there, making decisions and LIVING your life. Not just being jerked around by the latest twit.
If it makes you happy, go for it. But I don’t get the impression from the comments that anyone’e enjoying it.
And it’s not judgemental to walk away. You kick a dog. The dog runs. In what way has that dog judged you?
I used to never judge and didnt like people who judged and that got me in a lot of trouble. Here’s a few things that need to be judged, if a guy twice tells you he’s going to call at a certain time, doesnt and then has no excuse, judge. If he was arrested 5 years ago for hitting his gf but nothing before or since, judge. If he spends his money on expensive hobbies but doesnt pay his mortgage, judge. If he stands you up on a date without a good excuse, ie car accident, judge. If he tells you he just fell out of ‘like’ with his last 2 gf’s, judge. If you catch him in one lie, judge. If he disappears once, judge. If he’s talking sexy with anyone of Facebook, judge. If anyone’s talking sexy with him, judge. If he openly stares at other women while you are with him, judge. If he is hooked up in any way, gf, wife, separated, judge. If he’s been out of work a year and says he likes it and just wanted to piddle around, judge. If he gets excessive texts everytime you are with him, judge, judge, judge. And hit the flush button as you ladies on here are fond of saying.
SM
What an awesome post. You hit it, girl.
Grace,
Brilliant! ‘You kick a dog. The dog runs. In what way has the dog judged you?’ — that bad, unforgiving dog.
So sad that to our own tendermost feelings, we used to yell Stay! Sit!
Rosanna, no one here at this site would ever advocate having a closed heart and a negative outlook, especially Natalie. She teaches caring about yourself enough to tell people who jerk you about, lie to you, hurt you, abuse you or disrespect you to bug off. It isn’t about being too hard on people who have a bad day. I have bad days too, but I don’t verbally abuse people or just not show up for plans because of it. You completely missed the point. Second chances are good but should not be extended to everyone just because it ‘seems’ fair. Have empathy for YOURSELF first and drop the Mother Theresa approach. You will find you are wounded less and people will respect you more. Read more of Natalie’s post and it will make more sense. You took things out of context on this one.
Also,
frankly (and I’m speaking from many years of personal experience) individuals with ADHD and/or depression do not make ideal partners. Less than optimal mental functioning of any kind puts major, possibly unfair demands on the partner. I agree: the post was about not giving disrespect/abuse a second chance; but I will take the liberty to generalize this message to not settling with an incompatible partner. Let’s face it, ADD is not on anyone’s ideal partner checklist. Whether it is excuses, reasons, circumstances or a medical condition — it is wise to proceed with great caution and realistically adjust expectations and evaluate their role in one’s life.
I had this to happen just recently. I started a new job and this guy was hawking me everywhere I went. I found myself dodging him because he’s attractive and look like the player type. Then we had a conversation on the ride home one day. After that he started walking me to my bus stop. then he gave me his number. I called him just to say “this is my number”. He has never called since. Now he seems cold after saying “let’s go for a drink one night when we get off.” I said “that would be nice.” Still no invite, call or anything. So I started to ignore him, only speaking when it’s necessary. I never had an office romance so I am a little leary about even engaging in one. I don’t chase so the fact that he isn’t trying to get at me, is a total turn-off! His lost. Although I am lonely, I refuse to be lonely and desperate. Plus I have to remember my intuition was telling me to dodge him for a reason! Now I see! He’s fickle and timid. If he’s intimidated by me then he’s not the one for me! Good riddance!
Well done Rolly – that’s just weird and you just don’t know him or have enough of anything to warrant any further investment of energy – you’re just not that desperate. He’s a game player and a tit.
‘He’s a game player and a tit’
So succint.. love it!!
…and he is totally also seeing someone. But trying to see if you are interested, for whatever reasons (“am I still hot?” being the most likely reason!) he has
If someone you don’t know give you bad behavior the very first time they get to interact with you, it’s just who they are.
And giving someone a second shot, particularly in dating, is saying “I don’t know if somebody will ever come after you, so I’m not taking the risk to walk away from my last chance at getting a relationship.”
It’s incredibly short-sighted in addition to being desperate. It’s not that hard to meet people, it just takes getting out, trying new activities & places, and, well, being out there !
Only really insecure people will think of someone who has already rejected them as potentially being The One. Been there, done that.
I broke up with my first love a few months ago, an EUM whom I got together with at 20. He is the only person I have ever been involved with romantically – I’ve always been scared shitless of letting anybody get close. I’ve run away several times from respectable, caring, and nice young men because the very moment dating would turn into a relationship I’d be outta there. A tender kiss was all it took for me to flee ! (when I had no trouble whatsoever with one-night-stands…)
Anyway, this one I met because I was looking for a flatshare and we met via a flatsharing ad. It was attraction & understanding at first sight, and when it turned sexual (only 20 days later after I moved in, I pushed that one…) I clearly remember the day after : I had spent the whole day debating whether I’d get slightly drunk beforehands to have the balls to come home and face that man I had feelings for. The only reason I didn’t walk away from this one is because I was already living with him and had nowhere else to go. I honestly think if I hadn’t had that “get over your fear or sleep on the streets tonight” ultimatum, I’d still have no romantic experience to this day.
Anyway, what I was getting to is : when we broke up five months ago I was all about “I can’t give him up,he’s the only match I have ever had in life, in 22 years he’s the only person I have trusted and got close to.”
22-years-old and I thought I’d never have another match ! How insane and deluded is that !
I know why I did this : five months of working on my emotional unavailability (& lack of boundaries, self-esteem, etc… got the whole package) later, I know perfectly that I was avoiding myself and trying to live through him.
Every time we go out of our way to make somebody else special and want them to play an important part in our life, it’s really about avoiding to take responsability and play OUR special part in our life. It looks easier to put the weight of your happiness on somebody else’s shoulders. Except that it can’t work that way, nobody can live your life on your behalf.
“And giving someone a second shot, particularly in dating, is saying “I don’t know if somebody will ever come after you, so I’m not taking the risk to walk away from my last chance at getting a relationship.” Spot on Tya, spot on. “Every time we go out of our way to make somebody else special and want them to play an important part in our life, it’s really about avoiding to take responsability and play OUR special part in our life. It looks easier to put the weight of your happiness on somebody else’s shoulders. Except that it can’t work that way, nobody can live your life on your behalf.” Brilliant.
He isn’t the only person you’ll ever be involved with – you haven’t lived your life and until you get to end of it, it’s only then that you’ll know the sum of all of your involvements. We can’t say we won’t love again – we haven’t tried and we haven’t lived. It’s like predicting that we’ll be a dead person walking. Just because he’s the first ‘match’ (and a dodgy one at that) doesn’t mean that he’s your only one – I’m glad you are creating your life on your own terms!
Great post Nat,
The most difficult thing for some of us is to let go of the desire to change them. It’s like we wont be able to cope with ourselves afterwards if and when they’re gone.
But I guess that you being you and just seeing the situation for what it is can help if such thoughts arise.
Just you being you. ..How hard yet how simple.
Being you is a lot easier than you think when you stop resisting it EB. Many of us are afraid of the consequences of being ourselves – you can’t miss what you never *had* because you get on with enjoying what you do have as a result of being you. To do otherwise is to be like “If only I wasn’t being myself, I might win over someone that treats me like shit”.
All so true. My ex EUM would have had the very same attitude as your male friend who was being fobbed off- no one would be messing him around more than once, oh no, cross him once, you’ll never cross him again! Yet I allowed him to fob me off for years (am too humiliated to continue to repeat how many years!) and I was one of these people:
“Stop giving people a chance to ‘prove’ themselves to be better than what they’ve been.”
He never even asked me to give him time to prove himself, never claimed or pleaded or even mentioned in the passing (!) that he was going to be (or try to be) any better that he’d always been – yet I continued to give him chances to prove to me that he could be better than he’d always been and cough up an actual bona fide relationship instead of the flip-flap-flopping, ‘now you see me, now you don’t’ bollocks that i’d been getting since day one.
I get it now (I hope!!) that it simply was never, not in a month of Sundays, ever going be any different. It was as good (but not as bad!) as it was ever going to get (and sometimes I imagined that whatever it was, it was better than nothing – but the great thing is that now I don’t see it that way at all, not even for a moment – thanks to you Natalie.)
I also like how you point out the aspect of ‘diminishing returns’ – Yes. The less you expect from him the less you get from him, so that you have to keep extending yourself and compromising yourself more and more for longer and longer to get less and less (a bit like the UK government’s recent pension reforms: work longer, pay more, get less!)
It’s true Fearless – Mr Unavailable is the man of diminishing returns. He just keeps managing down your expectations. And it’s true – if he was treated in the same way, he’d have cut it off after all, he wouldn’t have been in control.
When we stop making off the cuff decisions about giving them a chance, especially when they didn’t ask for it, it leaves you free to see them showing their arses. It would be better to volunteer in charity organisations to people who need and want chances, than to throw your energy into the abyss.
Thanks for your response Natalie. No, he didn’t want nor need the chances I was dishing up for him like there was no tomorrow. Oddly, I knew that was true and it was partly what kept me going – like what I really, really wanted was for for him to want and need something (a chance? Anything) from *me*. One big horrible devastating light bulb moment for me in that respect was when his mother died very suddenly and he didn’t need me or turn to me for anything, Nothing. Never asked for me, didn’t phone, didn’t come to me – nothing. He didn’t want chances. He didn’t need chances. I did. i wasn’t then really giving him chances, I was giving *me* chances, hoping the more chances *I* got maybe i would hit the bottom of the abyss one day and he might want and need one back.
The more clarity I get the more astounded I am at my own misguided stupidity.
@Fearless, I really relate to what you said about the EUM not even asking for chances, but us imagining that he was in need of chances, love, affection, devotion, infinite understanding, patience. I too, had my “big devastating light bulb moment”– when he was hospitalized for an infection, he never told me about it until 2 months later (when I had expressed my anger and desire to leave, then he diffused and did his evasive/distraction spiel by giving me a sad story about how he was suffering in hospital, though he didn’t obviously want/need me at that time).
I think that it’s quite easy to project, to want to believe that someone else needs us and that we are indispensable to them. My ex-EUM played up the role of being the needy man-child, “I need you to help me with cooking”, “it was your fault I nearly hurt myself while cutting a cantaloupe”, “I need me a back rub. You should give me one”. I can look back and laugh in disbelief at how ludicrous these suggestions were from this overgrown baby and how he managed to make me feel GUILTY even, for not immediately dashing over to his side when he “needed” me (i.e I was in my resistance, pseudo no-contact zone). He also had a problem getting *it* up (his libido reflected his flaccid emotional commitment), would withdraw and disappear for weeks/months after a physical encounter and this drove me quite crazy. Instead of pulling away, I was the one who decided to STAY, I read tons of articles about middle aged masculinity in crisis, “how to be an understanding partner and how to cope with your partner’s ED”. This was not a loving long term partnership but I acted as if I was in one. I imagined that he NEEDED my understanding, needed me to be around. However, we never really had a dialogue about this, he never asked me for anything explicitly. Now is it just a case of 100% fantastical projection on our part? I think he was a master at subconsciously manipulating me to stay, without actually specifying it verbally.
Yes Jade Sesame, I hear you.
I think I really wanted him to need me but I knew he didn’t. Yes, like you, I got the pseudo ‘need’ when it was good for him to be around – he needed a back rub – he needed a cup of tea, he needed some care and attention! But he did not need me for anything important that you’d expect a partner to need you for – like some emotional support when his mother dies – or a period in hospital. Nope. He could manage all that without having me around! And likewise the good stuff – he didn’t need me to celebrate any of his accomplishments with him either!
It occurs to me though that we must wonder when we dish up all these chances for him to make a better relationship with us – who is it really that we are offering these opportunities to? Are we really offering them to him – or to ourselves?
I don’t know if I’m making sense, but I am now thinking that it was really me who wanted all these chances; that I was dishing them up not to him but to me – I wanted all those chances to make it work, to make good on my (bad) investment.
So maybe in these protracted ‘relationships’ (the ones that drag on with chance after chance, after chance) we think we are giving him another chance when really it is us who are looking for yet another chance, another chance to convince him to ‘man-up’.
Amen Sista!!
The part about your friend who gave the guy a “week” hit home for me.
I was actually just about to text him, when I read this..divine intervention at it’s finest! Thanks
You have been saved Nancy! But honestly, what would someone do in a week? They’re just buying time!
This has helped me too. I’ve been struggling a bit, trying to get over a EU/MM who sweet talked and smooth talked me into a “not quite” affair over the summer, but who did blow me off and couldn’t see it through. I have to see him (and his wife) at church every week (yes, I know, ironic) but I stay out of his way and haven’t talked to him yet. But every week I end up feeling sad and lonely and it’s at these time that I drift back into thinking about the ways things were (which was just a fantasy). I know it’s over and that’s a good thing, so I don’t think another rejection is going to happen anyway, but it’s still hard. I need to snap out of it!
Hard as it may be to hear Heartache Amy, it was over before it started and that’s a blessing in disguise although you don’t see that right now. I think that it is no coincidence that you are going through a divorce and were receptive to him – he was a distraction and now that it’s over, you’re faced with your pain and what’s happening in real life. You’re supposed to have that pain. You’ll get through it.
There’s a concept called variable reinforcement… where sometimes, and randomly, you get what you want. That random reinforcement can be very addictive. People get hooked on “maybe this time. ” You see it in casinos where people spend hours and tons of money pulling a handle, hoping for the big payoff. You see it in rats, pressing that bar again and again, hoping for a food pellet.
You see it in people who, time and time again, let some yo jack them around one more time, hoping that this time will be the last time. And besides, he or she, was having a bad day and they really do “love” them.
My gawd… really, all they’ve done with their bad behaviour, is show you who they really are. Don’t get hooked. They’ve shown you who they are. Walk away. Cut your losses. Don’t look back. Be busy.
If they did it once, they will do it again.
Robyn,
Thanks for putting a name to it: Variable Reinforcement. That was a major hook in my 14 month relationship. I think I experienced that from my parents, and then accepted it from the EUM. No more, and never again, as I can recognise it now.
Great comment Robyn. “variable reinforcement” – fascinating and oh so true. I do think if so many of us didn’t have a gamblers mentality, we’d be in a lot less trouble. It’s wanting to be the exception to the rule. It’s just ridiculous to wait around for something random to happen to force them to rechoose us as an option.
Thank you…on a rainy night in which I find myself a little sad and lonely…I am so grateful for everything I just read…it’s the truth. It’s important to have somewhere to draw strength from, you are that strength.
You’re very welcome Jesssad and I hope you’re feeling better. (((hugs)))
@Rosanna- you’re right that assuming the worst is not going to help you or anyone, but I think the point being made here is more about establishing a pattern from the beginning. In the beginning people make more of an effort in most cases, so if someone isn’t even interested in you to value a first or second date and you accept this from them and put it down to assumed reasons such as ADHD before you know them, then you are inviting this type of treatment in the future. Someone with ADHD is going to have to figure out for themselves how to negotiate the challenges involved in starting a healthy relationship, perhaps by forewarning their date about their tenancies. Then their date can decide if they want to date someone with those tendencies and everyone is clear about what is happening and why.
I like how Samantha from Sex and the City puts it “F*** me badly once, shame on you. F*** me badly twice, shame on me!”
I also think it’s a different thing if you have got to know the person well through dating or being in a relationship with them for a while and then they have an ‘off day’ (as in a bad mood, or forget something- small issues like that) but it takes time to know if this is the exception to the rule. You can’t create the rule using the behaviour you see as the exception, because they will think you have accepted this as the rule. It will be part of your relationship ever after if that happens.
Having learned a lot about myself lately I will agree with Rosanna here and say that giving someone a second chance isn’t a bad thing. But lots more after, is. I live by the number 3. If you have to tell or receive dodgy behaviour three times. Nevers gone change. Never is a strong word. But that’s how you think of it. As if they do un the future then good for them! You’ll have moved on already!
Rosanna, it’s not about having a negative attitude or being mistrustful of any and all men, but about protecting yourself. I hope you never encounter another narc or ass clown, but chances are you likely will if you’re young and single. Or if you ever divorce.
And let me say, guys can be just quasi ass clowns or pre ass clowns and still drop the ball. We have to use our heads and yes, sometimes, give them a second shot. But I’ve found I just won’t put up with any b.s.. I’m older than some here and fairly traditional with dating, but I consider it a trial period: if they don’t express enough interest to even call for a week or so after a date, then drop only a text 8-10 days later expecting me to jump for joy, forget it! I don’t have to accept lackadaisical behavior- as Nat says, I’m not that desperate!
Tess
I really love the title of this post and it should be a dating mantra to uphold. Speaking from my own experience, I couldn’t “bounce” or quit the situation because I was given baffling and conflicting signs, or so I thought. I think that many of us tend to stay because we want to get to the bottom of understanding why it doesn’t work, why someone doesn’t want us, analyzing and finding solutions, buying time to strategize/modify our approach in the hope that things will be different, that the other’s perception can be altered. I thought for the longest time too, that if I stay long enough, he will eventually see that my love runs deep and I am sincere. No more self-brainwashing from romantic ideology! I’ve learnt that dating isn’t a quest in persuading someone to like/love you and that it is OK, healthy, normal and absolutely essential to have limits as to what we can or can’t tolerate.
I also think that rejection can be overt or covert– I would have left right away if I had an upfront conversation that unequivocally stated “this isn’t working out..”, but it wasn’t the case. Flaking out/gradual disappearing/multiple disappearing acts/deliberate delays in responding, all these are also signs that equate to rejection, disrespect and a blatant lack of interest and commitment. All that is slow, silent, torturous, protracted abuse. I stayed for all the wrong reasons– my instincts told me that he was an idiot, but I wanted to believe that he was a better person than he really was and thought he had the potential to be, I couldn’t believe he would reject someone like me and what I had to offer. Ultimately, I think that any whiff of shady, dodgy behaviour should be enough for us to ascertain something about the other person’s character. Am renouncing my role as a a voluntary rehabilitation unit for relationship offenders/heartbreakers, I’ve also concluded that help is possible only if 1. they ask for it, 2. it comes from a professional figure who isn’t emotionally invested.
” I don’t think NML’s post is advocating cynicism, or for us to turn into nazi-daters with a draconian lists of dos and don’ts and corresponding penalties.”
That is such a awesome statement! ” Nazi-daters”. Love it!
@ JadeSesame – I can so relate to all you say. My EUM/AC/NARC (yep, he was all 3) did the same thing. He didn’t break up w/me but rather slowly started engaging in dodgy behavior – checking out young girls (underage!) at the grocery store right in front of me, lifting up my skirt in public when he’d drunk too much, flirting w/a lifeguard at the pool, engaging in a political rant in a bar and getting us kicked out, driving off in a huff and leaving me on the pavement 50 miles from home, then going into woe is me mode, telling me he was damaged goods and I deserved someone better. I should have listened and spared myself so much pain. Instead I went into Florence Nightingale mode, trying to “save” him, thinking my love and devotion could heal him and make him be the wonderful man I saw glimpses of. All I got for my ill-advised efforts were some nasty legal consequences and a serious STD scare (by the grace of GOD it was just a scare). Now I have to put back together the shattered pieces of my life and come to terms w/so many things. Nat’s blog has literally been a God-send. Also, this was a guy who did all the “surface” things. He held open doors, he walked on the street side, he parallel parked my damn car for me, but when push came to shove, his addictions to pot and alcohol were the only things of importance to him and he didn’t give a crap about me. Lesson learned, the hard way.
JadeSesame
Loved your comment. Very well put. I concur with every word – my experience exactly. Thanks for your insightful words.
This is me too:
“I’ve learnt that dating isn’t a quest in persuading someone to like/love you and that it is OK, healthy, normal and absolutely essential to have limits as to what we can or can’t tolerate.”
OMG. Where what how did I ever get to be so mixed up for so long?
@JadeSesame
“All that is slow, silent, torturous, protracted abuse…”
I love the way you breakdown rejection as “overt or covert.” If he’s not holding up a big neon sign flashing “REJECTION,” I tend to ignore the more subtle signs. You’re right: it is far more selfish and cruel to disappear, ignore/delay texts and calls, enjoy the benefits, etc. than to tell someone the truth so they know to move on…I’m slowly learning to heed the more covert signs of disrespect and disinterest early and head off my feelings at the pass…
I’ve been on the receiving end of that kind of covert, passive-aggressive, disrespectful behaviour. It was the most hurtful and cruel thing anyone ever did to me.
I agree… it’s just cowardice and weakness of character. It is soul-sucking because it takes your time, energy, and when you care your mind goes into overdrive…however, a way to deal with it is to realise that you are not in control of their actions and it’s not about you!
I agree Radio Girl. I too experienced this passive-aggressive hell. He didn’t have the balls to break up w/me straight up, so instead he strung me along for weeks going on and on about being “damaged goods” and wanting better for me – all the while continuing to burn up my phone with texts, constant emails and calls, making it impossible for me to move on, pressuring me to be “friends”, complaining to me about his ex-wife and oh yeah, jumping into bed with someone else. I have never been treated so badly or cruelly my entire life and I hope and pray never to experience anything like it again. There is no excuse for this type of behaviour – he really is a sick bastard.
Natalie,
Thank you for this post, and it gives me strength. I am still fully in No Contact. I went out with friends last night and met some new people & had a lovely evening. Oh, and I went shopping today! Bought new cute shoes and two dresses…. planning on some more fun nights out. I am so thankful for hours of complete peace. Looking forward to the future when all of this will just be a quiet and undisturbed memory. Hope Y’all are having a good weekend. Wishing you all happiness. BOUNCE!
Angel, good for you. I’ll bet you look perfectly darling in your new shoes and new dresses. Have total fun on your nights out. I’m looking after myself too. It is peaceful. It’s cold and rainy here so I lit the fire and baked lovely biscuits topped with cheddar cheese and sausage. And I’m crocheting darling little scarfs for my nieces for x-mas. He was such a distraction from my life. What was I thinking?
Since I am in California, I don’t know what “Bothered o Clock” means. I think I get it but I’m not sure. I’ve always wondered.
Rosanna,
I dont think this article was about those people with ADHD, mood swings and pet peeves, but rather an EUM who doesn’t communicate at all about an issue, fucks up and doesn’t talk about it and face the problem, disappears, comes back on their terms and disregards your feelings. I didn’t take it the way you took this article. Having mood swings, ADHD, pet peeves is forgivable, but standing a person up, being as asshole on a regular basis, not communicating, dissappearing and showing up, dissappearing and showing up is not.
THIS ARTICLE helped me so much. I GET IT NOW. I get it.
It came at the right time. THANK YOU!
Starr in Cali
This post is fantastic. I always find though that no matter how badly they treated you, they always blame you for it no matter what. I can’t help thinking why did my ex treat me like shit for? And now he had someone else and put her on Facebook. He never put me on Facebook. And now saying that she’s the one? When that could’ve been me, if he actually treated me with respect. What makes this new woman different to me? Why foes she get respect that I never got?
This same exact thing happened to me. The same weekend my bf dumped me by text he announced it on facebook and was already flirting with the next girl via his posts. And his whole family on facebook supported it. I blocked him as soon as I saw this because I’m sure he was doing it to rub it in my face. He wanted to seem like the big man. Just remember people USE facebook as a tool to perpetrate an image of themselves. It’s like our own little reality show. I don’t need to see my ex’s deluded image of himself displayed on fb, neither should you.
I gave my ex many shots, but he treated me the way he did because of him. I’m so greatful for this post and I thank God I’m in a position to receive the message. Thank you, Natalie.
OMG, someone who finally sees Facebook in the same way that I do. It is all a fake image! And it can lead to a lot of unnecessary pain and frustration when you are involved or breaking up from a relationship.
Stupid thoughts like, do I defriend them, do I block their posts, should I start stalking them, just plain ole BS. Who needs it.
Why doesn’t he also dump her by text too?
Fed up
Just focus on how this guy treated YOU and how he made YOU feel. It’s really not about the next woman – it’s about YOU. And anyway, who knows, maybe she gets better treatment cos she has boundaries and you didn’t. We need to recognise that part of the reason we get shitty relationship behaviour is because we allow it. Maybe she doesn’t allow it – maybe he gets that. On the other hand, neither you nor anyone else really knows what their relationship is like or how he’s making her feel – when he wants to dump her he’ll likely do it by text as well! But her relationship is not your problem – YOUR relationships are. I get the feeling you are still so angry about how he treated you because you are not really looking at yourself and your own contribution to your own experience with this guy (how many shots did he get from you? Why didn’t *you* stop giving him more shots?).
It helped me a lot to focus on *what I did* that I could have done differently to avoid all that hurt and pain. You (and me) gave him way too many shots to treat us better and he had no reason to do anything different cos we accepted what he was dishing up. Look to yourself a little more, Fed-up, and you might start to shift your thinking away from him and what he’s doing (or not doing) now – neither him nor his new g/f is going to help you now – or ever.
Also, if you were applying NC properly you wouldn’t know anything about what’s going on on his facebook page – and for NC to work for you it’s best that you know nothing about him – knowing stuff they’re doing just perpetuates the hurt.
I just want to add that giving someone chances doesn’t cause someone to mistreat you, but it gives them the opportunity to. I won’t kick my own ass anymore about being too nice to someone who didn’t deserve it. But I will take my nice, kind, forgiving, fine ass to someone who won’t see my good qualities as weaknesses.
Wow Donna L – that is SO spot on. Even if we were too “nice” and didn’t have our boundaries up properly, it still doesn’t make their taken wholesale advantage of it right. A real man with real values of common decency and respect would never take advantage like that. I too have been beating myself up for being so giving and nice to this f-ed up AC but I’m done feeling bad. I just know now to establish some solid boundaries, stick with them and wait it out for the right person to come along who will appreciate all my good qualities and not manipulate them into weaknesses. There is a lot I am proud of. I loved him openly and honestly. I’m not a bitter and distrustful person like he is and I’m still standing.
These are great, affirmative thoughts. Never to let someone’s toxicity infect us. It’s good to celebrate that we had something wholesome to offer, in spite of the problematic context. Better to have the capacity and desire to love, than having none, and coupled with wisdom and discretion, I think we are capable of being in meaningful and fulfilling relationships.
As for having my boundaries violated, I think of myself as naively having allowed a wild bear to enter my home. Now my interiority has been destroyed and I’m the one clearing up the mess, while the wild bear continues its trail of destruction. I wanted to nourish, love, cuddle and care for it, I thought it looked cute, tame and non-threatening but I forgot that it isn’t capable of domesticity, let alone reciprocity because of its inherent nature.
Do you know what I’m hearing Donna? Fighting talk! I want to clap you on the back and cheer because you’re fighting back for yourself and leaving him to own his own shite behaviour. This man isn’t and was never your future. He’s so far up his own arse he couldn’t begin to appreciate you. How he treated you was appalling particularly after what you went through – there just isn’t a remotely acceptable reason for it and no decent person behaves in this way. Ever time you think of him, mentally wave two fingers at him.
Thank you, Nat! It’s been slow going but I’m finally coming around. I have my bad days but with your help I can see a light at the end of the tunnel. I love the book! Hehe which two fingers are you referring to? : p
Natalie, I love this post- “One shot & that’s it!” then say, Baby-bye & Bounce!,lol:)
@Fedup:
I agree with the advice Fearless is sharing with you…it’s important to focus more attention on YOU than to be concerned with his useless FB page, Girly, for all you/we know it could be a ‘big hoax’ he may not even have a new GF “who really knows?” better question “who really cares?” But I agree, it’s best to ‘kill the curiosity cat’ and speedup the process to put attention back on YOU make yourself to busy to have time to go researching/go CSI investigating his narcissist FB page or his life, period! No Contact + No Contact = (more) NO CONTACT!!!
(I know it’s hard but ‘Just Do It’!! It will lessen the PAIN that you are feeling even more now due to uncovering ‘so called’ new info. on his life!) We all know they/AC’s are going to look4 another person 2b with,etc. bcuz that’s what they do,rite?…But, once you’re over this AC you will be doing looking for a much better person a.s.a.p,rite?
Spot On Fearless! And FedUp I am in something similar and have been No Contact for 3 weeks solid. The EUM has moved on to his next victim, and he was ‘covertly’ rejecting me, lied to me during 5 months that he brought her into a relationship. He was holding me in place while he shopped around (to get her).
I try my best not to focus on her, them, or what is going on with them. I do know that he started their relationship with lies, and sexually betrayed her with nights spent with me (I did not know she existed at the time). Me and other woman met coincidentally and traded several mature phone conversations of his activities. Last I heard, they were continuing their thing. Ouch, but acutally, I am now free to move on, get him completely out of my life, and present myself available for a Healthy and Happy Love Relationship with a desirable good and decent man.
When my thoughts are tempted to think of them – I counter them with cognitive challenge. Generally I try to dismiss most of these thoughts and immediately think or say something in my present world, or if I must, I tell myself that he has such a history of lies, cheating, and abusing women, ETC…. that she is his current victim (and the outcome will not be good). But now-a-days, I tend to focus on me and on my life and on my schedule of activities, and of me meeting new people…. Best to You Love. It gets easier when you EMPOWER yourself in NO CONTACT. and rid yourself of any hope of getting him back and magically turning him into a good man who will love you….
I wanted to add one thing to this: “And anyway, who knows, maybe she gets better treatment cos she has boundaries and you didn’t.”
While we all need to have boundaries, does anyone want a guy who, if given the chance, will treat you like crap? The mere fact that the guy is capable of treating you so poorly is enough to write him off. I never want to have anyone in my life who is so lacking in integrity that he/she will take advantage of others if given the chance.
Fedup,
I whole-heartedly agree with what A said.
In fact, I struggled for a long time with that same question, until I realized that his crappy treatment of me said more about his character, and really had nothing to do with my worth. I was jealous of the new girl, thinking she got better treatment, and she might, but she also got a man with the potential to treat people poorly if he can get away with it. Who wants a man like that?
A man who only behaves in accordance to what he can get away with, is certainly not a man of character and integrity, and certainly not someone I would be proud to say I am in a relationship with.
A:
“While we all need to have boundaries, does anyone want a guy who, if given the chance, will treat you like crap?”
I agree A – and with the rest of what you say – but I also agree with what I have read Nat saying, that we teach people how to treat us. I now notice that women I know who have not necessarily married a saint are getting the relationship they want partly (and I do mean partly) because their man knows full well that she won’t accept anything less. I do agree though that a a guy who would treat us like crap if given the chance should not be given the chance.
It’s no accident or coincidence that the women with firm boundaries get the best relationships from men – yes, I know that’s because they are bouncing the EUM and ACs – but that’s not the whole story – women with firm boundaries also influence the extent to which the average guy will chance his luck with her.
I am of the school that boundary busting EUs are not even interested in a balanced relationship involving proper boundaries and reasonable, mutual expectations. They want everything on their terms. Faced with someone not accepting their terms OR their excuses, they lose interest pretty fast. In their mind it’s the person with integrity who is high maintenance, entitled, difficult… Sour friggin’ grapes.
He will do that, or worse. Dumping you by text pushes your buttons. He WILL do something just as rude to push her buttons he may be doing it already. But it’s not your concern any more. You are freed from his antics.
@A & Donna L.:
— Spot on! Girlies—-I’m in agreement with you all, so Fedup please pay attention to YOU much more, you are more valuable than him…you will be OK!! *smiles*
I gave AC a THIRD chance (relationship insanity) after he came over and told me he wanted to spend the rest of our lives together, would never leave again, and was never more sure of anything in his life (all just words of course) I fell for it again. And well you could guess what happened. …he pseudo-moved in for three months over the summer (just brought some clothes but was spending more time at his home than with me) I treated him like gold ( in typical Fallback Girl fashion)….and he’s gone. But the third time didn’t hurt as much, somehow I must have deep down expected it. The way he treated me AFTER he left was atrocious with a mix of “I love you” texts and abusive/harrasive ones. I now am RELIEVED to be done with such a toxic/unhealthy relationship and am on the road to recovery, healing well and looking forward to the future. Which wont have any room for AC’s. Great post Nat, they all are.
If they reject you its time to bounce.
THAT IS IS in a nutshell.
Its called Having Standards.
Yup. No passes, period, regardless of who he is and what he has.
Lots of ladies give rich men a pass, they will line up like ducks to be the fall-back-girl for a EUM corporate man driving a Mercedes!
I’ve rejected the rich guys when they act like wankers and it always surprises them, cause I’m a woman of color.
Thank you Natalie for another great post. This one goes in my “Dating as a Discovery Phase” folder. One shot and they are dust, particularly during a dating phase. I’ve given physical abusers, verbal abusers, EUM’s/AC’s as well as the lying, cheating MM the benefit of the doubt all my life, to no avail. BTW, “give me the benefit of the doubt” was the exMM’s favorite way to creep back into my life. Like Yoghurt, my wonderful daughter is the product of the benefit of the doubt with 2x but I paid dearly. Presently once I have a doubt, I’ll be listening to that doubt and act accordingly. I’m starting to understand that I’m not God or a higher power and it’s not me that gets to judge them or have them redeem themselves. It scares me to death that I gave a physical abuser a second, third, and fourth chance to “redeem himself”. At 5’2″ and 100 lbs and change, I could be dead. Would he be redeemed? Same with the exVerbal Abuser (a faculty colleague), who called me crazy and a lunatic. After I walked out, I was under the delusion that I had to be “friends” because we worked at the same place. Thanks to you Natalie, he is blanked and I am alive. I don’t mean to sound bitter or cynical because I am looking forward to dating as a discovery phase with my self-esteem in tow. However when I start dating, it’ll be with a totally different mindset. One shot. And with the understanding that “There are sharks out there waiting to sniff around the desperation blood.” That one has been difficult for me to get. Based on my past relationships, I get it now. I think I’ve changed. Oh and I don’t feel the need to text/call/message the exMM to tell him I’ve changed! It’s none of his business. You are totally cool Natalie. One shot. It’s that simple. What’s that sound…fluuuush!
Maybe I am feeling so low because I was that girl that gave him way too many chances, believed too many broken promises, etc. If only I had seen this site many years ago.
I am now in no contact for my own sanity but god is it ever hard.
I feel stupid and empty and so many other negative feelings because I thought my investment would pay off. It hasn’t and as much as I try and be positive, the consolation of “Well now you can learn this lesson” or “The past is behind you and you can’t change it so look ahead” just does not help me in this phase. Any advice on how to get through this so I can see the positive?
Australia
Have you had chicken pox? I had, and it’s left me with one small scar on my face. Now, I could wake up every day and think about how I had chicken pox. How awful it was. How itchy it was. I could relive the horror of the experience. I could go to work, and tell everyone (again) how awful it was to have chicken pox. Point out my scar. Go home, look at my scar some more. Go to sleep telling myself that chicken pox is terrible. I could live my life afraid of getting chicken pox again.
Yes, you’ve had a bad experience but at some point you have to let it go and move on. If it helps at all, my counsellor has worked with clients who’ve been raped or sexually abused as children who, in time, decided that they didn’t have to face down their abuser or get anything from him. The would get on with their lives. When he told me that, my problems seemed so small.
Gazillions of people all over the world since the dawn of mankind have had chicken pox and gotten over it. And had crap relationships and gotten over it. So can you. The persistent telling yourself that you can’t is only perpetuating the misery.
What makes a human being special? It’s NOT our ability to torture ourselves with misery, it’s our ability to bounce back. We are resilient. Use it!
And I do know what you’re going through – I had to take ADs and get professional help to get over the ex. Now I’m completely over it. As over it as I am the chicken pox!
What a wonderful and helpful comment, Grace. Thank you.
Grace–
Until you CHOOSE to see it, you DON’T see it.
And “it” is our power over our own lives. Including our power to say “NO”.
I used to have it. 100%. People admired me for it. Lost it when I decided to worry too much about what others think! (Not totally my fault. My culture holds caring what others think in high regard.) Now I don’t give a damn.
I actually criticize FB on FB. Have offended many “friends” by doing so.
Love your posts. Each and every one.
@Australia, these well-intending platitudes can be hard to stomach. I think that feeling lousy and negative is actually part of the grieving process/aftermath, it would in fact be alarming if we DIDN’T feel any negative emotions after having invested so much of ourselves in someone who couldn’t return our love/invalidated us. It’s hard, we want to accelerate the healing process and get to a place where the pain isn’t so raw, where there isn’t that bitter aftertaste.
As for trying to see the positive side, I tell myself that I had the misfortune of encountering a first-class expert seducer, and now I am much wiser in spotting the prototype– I don’t believe that the same thing will ever happen to be again, because I’ve screwed my head on right and my boundaries/standards are now intact. A friend also said to celebrate our intentions to want to love, our open-heartedness and generosity, if we had once upon a time wanted to offer it to someone, it means that we can fall in love and love again, from a much wiser, sensible, more empowered place in future.
Thank you for your replies!
It has only been a few days but I am seeing a bit clearer – even seeing just a bit clearer is better than going back to the world where I wear my denial glasses – thick and covered in misplaced illusions and expectations.
Best post ever Nat! One shot is all it should be. I guess it would save the replay of events in which you are embarrassed you let it go any further with all the rejection. You’re right most women feel if they keep getting rejected one day he will see the light. I myself cry myself to sleep knowing that the other woman got the prince who was a toad to me. Betcha she has a one shot you’re out philosophy too! Which is why she won him! Oh well live and learn!
I agree with most of what you said. Shady behaviour should not be tolerated on any level, and should be dismissed right away. The only thing I would question is what are the circumstances that diagnose a behaviour as “shady”. I mean abuse, using a girl for sex, are examples of shadiness that should not be tolerated. But I feel as though there is a fine line with some things. Say a guy and you were to go on a date and he cancelled saying “Hey, I’m really sorry. It turns out I have this important meeting that I am absolutely obligated to goto” … and he calls you apologizing or he makes it up. That should be excusable. On another note, if a guy takes a long time to reply to your text or email, or doesnt at all… he could just be busy. I think in those cases he gets three strikes and hes out.
In any case, when I “play hard to get” I usually avoid a guy for a few days, just to make him miss me more. I don’t mean to sound conceited, but it usually works. And the guy usually wants to see me again. I’m surprised this guy said “you only get one shot” because it never seemed that way with the guys I met, one of the guys I’m taking to gave me more than 20 shots I’m pretty sure.
Sarah
Do be careful of playing hard to get. Be wary of provoking a chase response in an EUM/AC. They like all that game playing. It’s the first step to Clownsville. If all you’ve got with someone is pushme, pullyou, bounce it. It’s irrelevant who’s “winning”. You might think “it’s fine for me to continue this because I’m in control”. I promise you that either a) you don’t really like him in which case, stop torturing him and move along or b) one day YOU’LL find yourself chasing HIM and wondering how that happened. We’ve all experienced b) – that’s why we’re here.
And if by “talking” you mean “internet chats”, it’s not a relationship or even a precursor to a relationship. Some people are perfectly happy with that. It’s a way to get some kicks without even having to commit to leaving the house. As soon as you hear yourself making an excuse for a man “he’s busy, he’s got children, he’s got a lot on his mind, or God forbid, his wife is home” then DANGER WILL ROBINSON!
I don’t mean to be all over you, but it was your scenario that led to years of suffering which I could have so easily avoided!
Sarah,
Grace has given very sound advice. I, too, “played hard to get” when I first dated my ex. I even told him on our first date that I had this invisible force-field around me that kept people at arm’s length (true in a way, because unbeknownst to me I was actually EU myself). He actually texted me early on in the relationship “I suspect that force-field may be a potential problem, but I am sure we can overcome it”!! He had taken the bait and saw it as a challenge. It was then that he stepped up his pursuit and started the Fast Forwarding and Future Faking. Once he had broken through the force-field (rather too easily, due to my lack of boundaries and self-respect), just as Grace says, the novelty and shine of his new toy (me) wore off and I gradually found myself in scenario b) above, eventually becoming the “chaser” in the relationship and making excuses for him being tired, busy, poorly, overly preoccupied with his 17-year-old daughter, bogged down with money & work worries etc etc etc. I thought by playing it really cool and aloof with him that I would always be in control. Sadly, as my tiny & ignored inner voice tried to tell me at the start, I was playing with fire – and inevitably I got very badly burnt indeed. Please be careful, Sarah, about “playing at” being anything – the best plan is to always be your *authentic* self with everybody in your life, including the men you date.
Thank you for that insight, Grace. I experience b) in an “almost affair” with a MM. When his interested started turning lukewarm, I found myself chasing him. It was such a terrible feeling and sent my self-esteem to an all-time low (chasing a MM for goodness sakes?!), so I simply stopped contacting him and he never contacted me– for months. Then I see him at a party the other day and he made some moves on me. I froze. He’s probably expecting me to contact him because that was the pattern. Thanks to Natalie’s posts and all of these great comments, I have decided that I will never contact him again. “Danger Will Robinson,” indeed! I know I made the right decision for so many reasons. It would not have ended well for me. But sometimes, it’s hard still wanting and thinking about someone, or something, you can never have.
Sarah,
“if a guy takes a long time to reply to your text or email, or doesnt at all… he could just be busy.”
No-one who is interested in you is that busy!
I had years of “too busy” with a flip-flapping EUM and if I hear another guy in my life palming me off with the “busy” excuse I think I’ll scream! – and then never, ever give him another shot at being “too busy” again! (too busy my arse!)
Dear lord Grace and Fearless, you are spot on. Your post always make me howl with glee and tears. Sure wish I’d would have had this wonderful community a few years ago. Sarah, “busy” is code for all FBG’s. When I want to dodge somebody, guess what, “I’m busy”. I’m so god darn busy, you’d think I was running a country instead of being a teacher. We are all busy. I’m with Fearless, if a guy starts telling me how busy he is, I’m out. There are leaders of countries that must be incredibly busy, yet they have time for their significant relationships. Too busy=Too busy for a relationship. Too busy=A shagg. “God forbid, his wife is home” then DANGER WILL ROBINSON!” Oh, I wish you were there Grace, two years ago. I’m experiencing a bit of sadness again as to how I was used.
Indeed! “Busy” as in what exactly…or with who? BS is too busy to call or respond…is a classic BS or passive aggressive move…the same as excuses to why you won’t cut off an association and hope they get the “hint” say your truth…we are grown and can handle it…not meant to be iced til you want a bite…or a snack to “tide you over”…live real and own up so others don’t waste thier time. If a friendship has grown away be kind and let them know you are not interested in going out or doing lunch…same with your potential or real dates/ties…take a time out…but be real because they are human and have feelings IF they aren’t playing games…we shouldn’t play them either…you will get burned by the same flame …live by the sword die by the sword…awhile back a reader explained that she didn’t want to associate with a former friend and she kept blowing off her invites…problem is she wasn’t brave enough to tell the person that she wasn’t interested and hoped that she’d just fade…be brave people…not cruel…just brave!
This one is tough for me, because I look at that sentence, don’t give anyone more than one chance to abuse you and I immediately think of my family members, especially my mother who constantly throws her negativity around and it feels abusive. When you were brought up in an abusive home you learn to tolerate abuse. It’s a tough one, because ultimately we need to learn to deal with our families who can be abusive, not because they mean it, but because they can’t help themselves. So, I know when I visit my parents (which I do as little as possible) I need to put all my armour on to protect myself from the abuse. And yes, I have cut them off for 6 months at one time, not seen them for a whole year, but I don’t feel like disowning them is the answer for me, yet I can’t help but wonder if my needing to tolerate abuse makes me want to give men that same privilege. I do have tools to deal with them, but that’s just it, it’s sad when you need to deal with your own family, and how much do we want to deal with men? I know this is the reason I’ve been single most of my life. This is tough in 2 ways, I wonder if the men are really being abusive, and yes, I have stoped them at one time, but I always wonder, were they having a bad day? Am I too sensitive? I’d appreciate any ideas on this matter.
Agreed Rosanna, you need some insight and sometimes a second or third chance to know who can change and who can’t and how much it matters.
I gave college boyfriend 6 years of chances and he was still EU. But my husband had shown he could be available and loving – then I had 2years of postpartum depression and he had stuff happen to him too – and he started acting like my first boyfriend, eventually having an affair.
Thankfully we both knew we could change – or change back – to the good people we were befor we got angry and bitter. We’ve given each other 2nd chances and don’t regret it. Well not so far.
I began reading your Blog about five months ago, because I’ve been trying to detattach myself from a guy (an imaginary relationship). Then I heard a song called He Wasn’t There by Lily Allen… before my Baggage Reclaim Awakening I would have loved this song. Simply Loved it! And now all I can see is what a horrible message it sends… It’s like it was purposely crafted to keep us in the dark. I’ve been seeing more and more of these messages in the media. Not subtle. Blatantly opposite of women with high self esteem and boundaries. Hell I didn’t even know what Boundaries were before I started reading your Blog! Thank you, thank you, thank you for doing what the women in my family, for whatever reason, never could. Oh, and Love your book too! I hope you can see how this relates to today’s Blog 🙂
“Oh we met when they stood me up several times but I stuck it out until they loved me”……
This line is another confirmation as to why my 60+ days of No Contact is my “Golden Ticket” to true happiness. After being stood up for a debrief, 5 weeks later I get a lame ‘hey stranger’ text, followed by another text 2 weeks later asking me to CALL HIM because he wanted to ask me something, followed by a telephone call 5 days later ( b/c I didn’t jump at him granting me Permission to call him) leaving a voicemail telling what time it was and to call him back. Too vague to warrant any return call.
So I read that line and I think too myself, ” is this the story that I want to assist in writing about my love life?” No way! I would just die inside.
Nat, this is so good. I wish I was reading your articles fifteen years ago when I was a teenager and starting to date, because then I wouldn’t be still here today doing the same things.
After what I was saying before about the guy who stood me up twice, I realise that the moment he didn’t turn up the first time I should have blacklisted him. Actually the moment he TOLD me to cook him dinner and get movies for him I should have told him to jump, cause he did it again and then treated me poorly further times after that.
I’m all for giving people second chances if it’s warranted, but I’ve learned that some behaviours are things that will just happen again. If someone doesn’t show up and doesn’t care to tell you he won’t be, that’s not a mistake that needs a second chance, because it shows a huge flaw and narcissism in his character that he doesn’t care about my feelings at all.
I think about how far I’ve come since I started reading here and can’t believe how little I used to respect myself. I still have trouble, but I’m learning.
You said: “Someone that will disappear once, will disappear twice, and more if you allow them to.”
This is really true. I had a boyfriend who would do this continually and each time he would come back as though nothing happened I would apologise to him, even though I didn’t know what I was apologising for and then instead of making things better, he continued to disappear more regularly and as time went on he didn’t apologise, he just blamed me for having to disappear.
Such a great post – thank you.
Assholic. I love it!
Great post. For those of us that grew up watching the women who were teaching us right and wrong accepting all kinds of disrespect without saying anything, it can feel uppity to think I should walk away from situations that aren’t “that bad”! Or, if you simply don’t have enough faith in yourself, you might not think you can do better than someone who rejects you, oh, just every now and then.
I’ve been there. I didn’t even know it was rejection. The exAC would subtly put me down, or question my sanity, or freeze me out if I got upset at boorish behaviour. Just because someone is sticking around, and is right there next to you, doesn’t mean they aren’t rejecting you. If they insult you, or lie, or cheat, or hit, the fact that they show up to do it again or do it while caressing your cheek doesn’t mean you’re not being rejected. In fact, they might get off on being the one to do the rejecting.
I remember a couple of the guys I dated who were editors or businessmen (boy, I know how to pick ’em!) who liked to brag about the big name writers or big company owners who they rejected for their magazine or how they cut people who weren’t performing. They liked to be the one to make someone else feel rejected. Don’t let this kind of person get to mini-reject you over and over again!
Of course they often don’t make it sound like rejection, they just tell you what is wrong with you that makes them so annoyed. They make it sound like they are correcting you. They may even make it sound like they are trying to help you be less of an eff-up.
I am still learning how not to reject myself. Until I deeply, firmly believe that I would choose me to be with forever, and I am happy with me, I will secretly trust people who – as Natalie says – reflect my beliefs about myself. I will trust rejectors!!? Once I stop rejecting myself, I won’t spend a minute trying to convince myself that those who reject me (whether ‘politely’, by not asking for my number, or awfully, by saying mean shit or telling me my flaws) need to be convinced of my worth.
I went on a date this week with a guy who didn’t bother to ask more than one or two perfunctory questions about me over the course of an hour. That counts as rejection. The old Magnolia would think: maybe he’s a great guy and I did things that put him off!? Now it’s simply flusherama.
I’ve been on a few of those dates. They walk away at the end of the evening not knowing anything more about you than when you started the evening. And it doesn’t seem to bother them.
I heard a stand-up comedian once say, “Have you ever been so bored listening to someone talk that you start wondering what their skeleton looks like?” LOL.
When I end up on a date with one of these “talkers,” all I can think is, “Man, I could be at home reading, or watching a movie, or masturbating, or out with a friend.”
There is a good outcome to the bad dates, though: The handful I had after the EUM made me get over him even more quickly – just because I appreciated being single more than ever!
Natalie – I love you, this site, this post and your message. The one sentence in this post that hit me the wrong way was the idea that if we all just stopped accepting assholic behavior, they would be forced to change. When I first read it, it seemed like once again we were trying to get them to change, to force someone to adapt to our expectations. I get your point and wish that it were true but the reality is, as you have always said, they are not going to change. They are assholes BECAUSE they are immune to what others think of them. If the AC had cared for a single second how I felt, it would have been quite different. The truth was, he didn’t give a rat’s ass what I thought or felt. It just took me way to long to see it clearly.
We need to bounce because its the right thing to do. We need to walk away to protect ourselves and not waste another second on these pieces of lying ass crap. We do not need to keep trying to teach them any more lessons. They are simply not listening.
I like the term assholic.
I agree with you that there’s a hint of “help” in the idea that we enable assholics to continue with their assclownery when we accept it. But I’ve found it very helpful to say to myself, if this guy wants to avoid reality, I’m not going to help him. It gave me some distance.
What a spot on article! Thanks Nat, i love reading your advice and info it’s really helped to start to turn my dating life around.
Recently i got chatting to a guy through email and he seemed to be a decent person (well as decent as you can get through an email anyway), then the texting started, all that was cool too. Then we moved onto him saying ‘i’ll call you tomorrow’………………………………………………………silence
then he text a couple of days later talking like he hadn’t even said he’d call and that he’d call me later that day……………………………………..silence
3 days later he text and like nothing had happened said he would call the next day………………………………………………………..silence
by this time i was actually amused at how flaky he could be……..but before i could make any final decisions………he called me. So the hooks were out and i was pulled in, but i knew i needed to keep a bit of distance. More texts came and then another text to say he’d try and call the next day……………………silence
and i didn’t hear from him again.
So the moral of the story is…………..if they are going to disrespect you once they will do it again. I needed to bounce on earlier, lesson learned 🙂
He pulled the “reset” crap. Acting like nothing was wrong and that he could “rewind” back to where you guys were before he offered to call you. “Resetting” the dial or hitting the refresh button is a form of gaslighting–we’re all supposed to act like the conversation containing “I’ll call you” never happened.
yeah Molly, that’s what he did, i couldn’t remember the terminology! and guess what, he text again yesterday, saying everything but sorry ‘oh i’ve been busy’, ‘working 24/7’, ‘i’ll understand if you don’t want to meet, but i would still like to’……then….’i;ll call you when i can’.
gobsmacked.com!!
i think this post is brilliant and illuminating. one of natalie’s many insights is that you don’t owe anybody a relationship or space in your mind or the benefit of your life just because you have met them, a minute ago, and you feel attracted to them or vice versa.
at the beginning of your interaction with this person you don’t know him, you don’t owe him — a chance or anything. this is someone you made an appointment with and he didn’t show up. or he showed up and acted in a way that you didn’t like or that made you uncomfortable. either you dig him or you don’t. what’s to like when someone isn’t nice to you doesn’t make you feel good?
if you’re reading this blog, you’re working on yourself. how much do you have in common with someone who is just kind of going with whatever their flow has always been? with someone who is not reflective?
whatever you think you have with him is in your mind. he’s not a potential Prince. he’s just someone you don’t know who made plans and broke them. or he’s just someone with a lot of problems or a past or baggage or whatever.
the first few times you see someone in person it’s a period of discovery–NOT confirmation of your fantasy.
whatever they have — depression, anxiety, poor eating habits, traumas they haven’t dealt with, money problems — you have to decide what you want to have in your life. because they might be great looking, come from a nice family, enjoy the same things you do and so on and so forth, but the baggage and problems have the stronger ability to define what you life will be like with this person in it.
natalie’s posts help you get in the position to decide what YOU want, given that you’re not a mental health professional and that you have your own issues, complexities and desires to address, negotiate and satisfy.
just because you’ve met someone doesn’t mean you go directly into relationship mode.
you have to be in a deep and abiding relationship with yourself.
of course transformation is possible. but you’re not a mental health professional and dating is not a clinical therapy situation. really, you want to spend quiet evenings giving therapy to your sweetheart? great for them but is that what you want to do? and are you qualified to offer therapy to…
The last boyfriend I had … I’m still coming to terms with his shady behaviour and we’ve been broken up a few months now. Trust be told I should have told him to bounce after the first date … He invited my friend and me to this house party. When we were alone in a room the three of us chatting he kept insisting on kissing me passionately in front of her. I kept pulling away because I thought that it was rude but he kept pulling my face back to his despite my withdrawals. She was getting all awkward .. I felt that this was a little disrespectful of him, I clearly didn’t want to kiss but gave him the benefit of the doubt … boys will be boys and whatnot.
The boundary violations continued from there on. He was incredibly selfish and didn’t seem to have any qualms about making me feel uncomfortable. There are a few incidents I could describe but would be too embarrassed to share here (mainly to do with sexual coercion).
I have PTSD following some childhood abuse at the hands of my father prior to his death. I made him aware of this pretty early on. One incident that hurt me was one night we were watching some videos … his Dad is getting old and he seemed to have this great fear of him dying. He insisted on showing me this video of this man singing about how much he misses his dead father. As much as I wanted to let him share this with me I just felt uncomfortable with it. I tried explaining to him that I didn’t want to watch it because it would affect me too much considering my situation. But he insisted … I argued with him about it .. he dropped the subject momentarily then proceeded to try and persuade me again quite forcefully. I relented and watched the video. It upset me quite a lot and triggered off some pretty bad nightmares the few nights after … It was after this that I realised that he didn’t care about me or my feelings at all.
I continued to go out with him despite my dissatisfaction and eventually it lead to a deep depression that I am only emerging from now with the help of medication. I ended the relationship after a few months. Funnily enough he accused me of being selfish and only caring about myself as we parted.
Now I have learnt is that you really need to bounce after the first sign of disrespect because it gets worse and worse, trust me. Address it at the VERY FIRST SIGN!
Rachel
Absolutely, it only gets worse.
I speak from both sides. I’ve had exes treat me badly and then treat me even worse when we “made up”. And I’ve behaved badly and when we got back together – I was even worse. I felt embarrassed and, horribly, I looked down on them for taking me back.
Yes, there are exceptions but if you’re reading this blog, it ain’t you.
I love this article and Nats advice as without it I would have stayed with my Mr EU!
I spent the best part of a year with Mr EU consistenly treating me disrespectfully and blaming his circumstances on it so I had enough of him and had 6 months no contact. Then this week I agreed to go to dinner with him and was met with a host of statements – ‘ I’ve had time to reflect the last 6 months ‘, ‘ The timing is better now ‘ and the best one ‘If I can’t have what we had then I don’t want anyone ‘….anyway I thought if he means all this I will give him one shot. His eagerness to be with me lasted less than 72 hours with one phonecall the following day saying he’d return my jacket I had left at his house and no mention of actually making arrangements to spend time with me. I asked him outright whether he only wanted to drop my jacket off or spend time with me and I was met with a ‘ well I’ll phone you over the weekend’. Eh no you won’t so BOUNCE!!!
I’m glad I had found this website as I may have been lured back but I’m not. I don’t want him to want me because I don’t want him…he’s a loser so thank you Natalie and all the other postings as I don’t feel alone:)
Exactly grace. Problem with me is I just kept my mouth shut and let it continue … I inverted my anger and eventually it ate at me and lead to depression. I’m over it now mainly, I’m definitely over him but I’m still disgusted at myself, that I didn’t listen to myself. I’m not impressed with the way I acted at all either. I allowed myself to just stew in unhappiness for the gamble of happiness.
I’m slowly starting to date again and it is nice going in knowing that I will put my foot down to this time, so I guess I have learnt a lot from a very negative experience. Only problem with me is sometimes I find it difficult to know what is reasonable to put your foot down to (mainly due to the childhood abuse) …. but chances are if it feels uncomfortable to you it is WRONG regardless of what anyone else thinks.
As in the words of NML I’m just not that desperate … anymore.
Great post!
Hi Everyone,
Yet again, another wonderfully insightful post, thank you 🙂
I too, struggle with maintaining my intense romanticism and do not want to become bitter and cynical with regards to men, love and relationships. Like so much in life, I am finding that it seems to be about “balance”…
“Balance” within my self and with regard to others (friends, family, potential romantic partners). What I am slowly discovering is that, before I can begin to believe in anyone else, I must first believe in ME; because without that, I then become vulnerable to being dis-respected.
Something I am trying to do now is to be more self aware, not just of myself but of others too, to really listen to what they are saying, to be noticing how the person and situation is making me feel. I think we all have that inner voice, that whispers to us and so often in the past I have purposely, often without even being fully conscious I was doing this, turned off that voice because it conflicted wildly with what I wanted and needed to believe about another person…it was an interference to my fantasy and illusion and I could not/would not deal with that.
So now, I am trying to give more credence to that inner voice and to listen and to hopefully, more than anything learn from it. It’s probably one of the most difficult things I have ever had to do, and in the short term, it would be so much easier NOT to, but in the long term, for me, I am hoping it will prove to be most beneficial to my own well being.
Finding balance in life…this must be why certain yoga poses are so difficult! 🙂 It’s not an easy thing, at all…my best to everyone 🙂
Overall what I’d be looking for is a pattern of behaviors and actions. That’s not going to happen after one or two dates, although bad behavior can and does start right away. My general rule is “three chances” but sometimes you don’t need three tries on really egregious behavior.
The last EUM was 40 minutes late for our FIRST date. Never called to say he would be late or to reschedule. I told him it was disrespectful and said don’t do it again. Then there were other little things that started adding up, like never being available on a Friday night – ever. That’s going to take a few weeks to figure out. Although he once sent me a text message while he was out at a social function on a Friday night with his “Meet-up” group. “Hi we’re watching a really cool band and we’ll be dancing here in a minute!” WTF? If I were smart, I would have bailed right then and put him on IGNORE/DELETE.
And of course the big one is the monogamy talk. When you have the monogamy talk (and it is what you want) and they say they don’t want it, LEAVE!!!! I guess a lot of guys will lie to you about it, but I had an “honest” EUM on this conversation.
So there were a bunch of things in the beginning where I should have bailed much earlier, and the three strikes thing would have fit for him. He was never physically abusive, which of course would have had me bolting immediately. He also didn’t have a drinking or drug problem, which are the other two things that make me jump ship immediately. But there was enough there that I should not have spent 14 months with the guy – I could have been out within 2-3 weeks max.
I’ve been trying to work out some core values and their corresponding boundaries lately.
When I was making a list of my values, the idea of acceptance kept reappearing and I continually scratched it off the list, only to have it reappear. The idea that acceptance could be one of my core values made me nervous, as I assumed that having acceptance as a value meant that I was forever doomed to accept the unhealthy and disrespectful behaviors that I had accepted for years. I had no idea how to make acceptance into some sort of boundary.
And then it finally came to me.
The inverse of acceptance is rejection. Because I value acceptance, I no longer allow people to reject me.
Bingo!
Cheers.
this post made me cry… it’s all about how I have been with my relationships. I just wanted to love and be loved. but in the end, i am the one who is rejected. I plead, begged… very desperate to save my valued relationships but still ended up being rejected. 3 months of NC but I am still thinking about my ex every single day. ” Don’t allow someone to have more than one opportunity to reject or abuse you.” -I know I gave more than one but keeping this quote in mind now; I am moving on, walking forward and no intention to look back and be rejected again. ENOUGH! The person who made me believed that I am a princess is the same person who made me realized that “Life isn’t a fairy tale.”
I agree with you very much and I am walking away. However, with myself I have experienced something within me that could not forget the beautiful time we had until it all fell apart through stupid voicemails misunderstood appointments etc. etc. It got really ugly as I tried so many times to make it work but he had already closed the door and could’t even communicate to me anymore just looking at me on the street but no talking. It was so hard to see him so gorgeous and I could not touch him anymore. I tried many times and I could not stop either calling him or texting him. Some other force inside me was so strong I could not stop this energy. The last thing we did was text but it got really really ugly and nasty. We kept going back and forth and it was really ugly texting but it was something and enough for me to think NO. I feel different now though, different after those ugly texts. It helped me in some way to feel equal to him, I feel my own power and I fought back like crazy, like a warrior and it felt strong!!! I feel good but I want someone I really want to be with and not just someone to be with that person to be with someone. Sometimes it takes so long you wander if it even exists. He was that one I really liked and it takes a while to find that again. Although, the other day in the office me and another beautiful guy were looking at each other the whole time silcntly though… ohhh I wish there had been more. Take care everyone!
HI. I am new and am so glad to have found this site, I think it may save my life! Thank you Natalie, your words are so wise and describe my last r/ship exactly! Wow
So I now see I should have bounced from my very own Mr EU over two years ago! We dated in 2009 for 6 months and I thought we got on just fine. But around then I noticed I had not met any of his friends/family etc. I asked him about this and he admitted he did not want a ‘full on’ r/ship. Well I dumped him next day feeling proud of myself as he had clearly told me I was not the one. Went NC too (wasn’t I good??) Thing is, tho I held firm at first and ignored his ‘how are you texts’ I missed him and started responding after a few months, thinking he had missed me.
So for TWO YEARS (hangs head in shame) the pattern has been: few months go by, he starts txting, asks to meet as friends and we meet up. Then he blows cold again. Rinse, wash and repeat. Last saw him in August and txting since then. Two weeks ago, full one sexting for 2 weeks, then I found him active on dating site (while actually txting me ) and I began to wake up. Last wknd he asked to meet again and I said yes. (I know…!) BUT he came back with he ‘is giving up drinking for a couple of weeks so we have to deffo meet up after that’. Cue the romantic music screeching to a halt.. hang on, you havent seen me for THREE MONTHS but you are cool to wait a few more weeks just cos you dont want to drink!?!
The romantic fantasy is all in my head. This is all my own fault. I have looked at his horoscopes, monitored his dating site activity and waited around in vain for more than two years for a man that has shown me time and time again HE DOES NOT WANT ME. I am the fallback girl.
I did tell him there would be no meet up and I would rather leave it if he wasnt keen. He tried to argue of course he is keen, after all it is always him that texts me (true), its just he will be busy at work and has to wait for payday etc. But he accepts my decision and if I wanted him to leave me alone he would (sad face emoticon, yes he actually did this). However, he would like to stay friends. I accepted but boy oh boy I NOW see that I should BOUNCE!! And I am gonna. But its gonna be hard going cold turkey from my long time crack addiction. No more stalking, no more hiding away waiting, no more… thank you all xx
@MovingOn
Your story sounds uncannily like mine (except that I’m not sure whether or not he was into online dating). Waiting around for 2 years, texting, horoscope research, meeting up as “friends”..
About texting.. I think that is already a major major red flag. No excuses. I made a firm decision to quit contact because one day, I looked back at the hundreds of SMSes that been sent over a period of 2 years and I started to really loath them, the medium of communication, the sweet nothings, and the sheer lack of substance, how I allowed myself to sink so low and accept so little, virtually nothing. It’s incredibly easy to get pulled in and sucked into SMSes– receiving one could make me so euphoric, but then any one can sit on his bum and shoot off sweet SMSes, probably to several women in his SMS harem! It’s also easy to focus on these sporadic crumbs and texts– we end up thinking and feeling happy, “he is thinking of me!”, “he actually wants me and wants to get together with me!”, but how about all stretches of time in between? Is there quality communication and real, thoughtful effort?
Don’t wait anymore, waiting is undignified, don’t listen to his lousy excuses of being busy (any man who is interested will make time and effort, instead of writing stupid texts), drop the emotionally deficient idiot who can only express sadness through his retarded sad face emoticons. He knows what he was doing and was only interested in keeping you hot and into him! He wants to stay as friends only on his terms, and to continually be “present” in your life but not available. Good luck and stay firm!
I think going no contact is extremely hard, but in the end it will really change your life. What I found is that the first few times I kept breaking the no contact, but each time I did I realised very soon what a terrible person he was and now it’s been about four months and my life is so much better without him. I was doing what you were doing, checking his horoscopes and facebook etc and that was sending me crazy. Just stop doing everything and while it will be hard at first it will be worth it in the end for a better life.
Love your blog and perspective. Thank you for helping to set our hearts free…by using our common sense (finally).
I did a dumb thing and got ahead of myself with a new guy. We met, had an incredible first date, non-stop chatter, same sense of humor, huge make out session. In the following week, a couple good long phone calls, several texts back and forth,which were lots of fun. Second date, same scenario. Following week, same thing.
Sounds good so far…? Then the mistake. Third time together, I slept with him. The next week: no phone calls, no text convo’s unless they were initiated by me. By Wednesday, I texted “Do you want to get together next week” He texts back “How’s Friday” I said fine, said where do you want to meet? TWO DAYS LATER he responds asking where I want to meet.
I sent him this message: Failure to call 6 days after sleeping with you, plus failure to respond to text for two days indicates lack of interest. I made other plans.
His response: He prefers face to face convo, he had his kids all week (school was 0ut because of a freak snowstorm…in that time I had no electricity, but I did have to go to work, and I am a sole parent holding down two jobs), and the fact that I couldn’t deal shows I don’t know how to have fun.
Seriously? No calls or initiated texts for a week and he thinks I’m going to hop back in the sack?
Thanks to this site, I have learned NO SECOND CHANCES.
In the past I would have given in, justifying it with “well, he’s really smart and really funny, and has a cool job, and likes the same stuff, and really if I think about it I want to justify sleeping with him so early in the game…”
Now I know, he’s just an assclown.
Tracy
Sorry to hear this didn’t work out but I’m cheered by your response. Be aware, though, that the twerps often come back for another go. They’ve been let off by so many women before, they think they’ll get another chance (to be a clown).
As for “fun”, forget it. If that’s all he wants, he can push off.
Don’t respond.
If he were truly overwhelmed by power outages and custody of his kids, the thing to do is to let you know that! It’s not rocket science, just pick up the phone or text and say “things are not going well at the moment but looking forward to Friday” or whatever it would take to keep a connection going.
There aren’t any excuses now with cell phones.
Be glad you got out early. This could have been the beginning of a long string of disappearances, back and forthing, ignoring, managing down expectations, blah blah blah.
If they can’t muster up the energy to stay involved to the extent of a freaking phone call in the beginning, they aren’t going to improve on that behavior in the future.
A phone call takes 10 seconds!! Good thing you stood up for yourself.
Natalie, how lucky we are to have you here to tell us like it is! It makes us irrationally hopeful do-gooders a kick in the pants. Not everyone is worth saving.
I was watching a show here in the US called “Intervention” and the fellow leading the intervention said something that applies not only to out of control addicts but to abusers as well. He said, “I’ve never seen an addict LOVED into recovery.”
Time to bounce!
God Grant me Serenity – to accept the ones I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can and the wisdom to know its me.
the other thing i was thinking is that you have these twisted love affairs … that you see in the movies and maybe even live out in real life. who wants that. but it’s not love on the first date anyway. or even by the third date. that’s not a relationship yet. it’s just a person, like you, imperfect, a little nutty, with a long history of being whoever they are. so you’re just checking them out. so love can be both genuine and jacked up, if the two people are jacked up, but it’s not love within the first couple of outings. except in your imagination possibly.
This post especially reinforces my correct decision to go NC and get my sanity back. The old saying is true “Once shame on you, twice shame on me”. We do teach others how to treat us, I let myself be a doormat and I was treated like one. It isn’t easy to break old habits but it isn’t impossible and the reward in the end is so worth the pain getting there.
Loving this, Mary. I decided after years of thought that I would leave my husband this year (sounds rash. It hasn’t been. And there were 100 reasons to leave. We are amicable, so thats cool) to sort myself out and get rid of my unhealthy love habit. Which I am in the process of doing. The whole process (leaving and sorting myself out personally) is utterly painful and distressing but I know it will reap rewards and be worth it. I hope to have the loving relationship I always wanted. I am 50. Onwards!
Reading some of these stories you get the feeling that many men believe that doing more than NOTHING is indicative of too much “commitment.”
It’s truly mind-boggling.
Oh god, that is so disgustingly true. Its surprising how many guys think that putting in the tiniest amount of effort is bordering on “too much”.
I’m one of those women who have difficulty easing into the male ego. I honestly get so sick of hearing what women should and shouldn’t do just so a guy can feel like a “man” even when he really isn’t one… he’s just an emotionally unavailable assclown (EUAC).
Thanks so much for this post and this blog. Everything you write is spot on relevant to what I am going through and it helps me keep strong. Last year there was someone in my life who was an AC MM. We had a ‘nearly affair’ and my emotions were blown up way out of proportion. I was finally devalued and discarded with the silent treatment from him. Since then I have gone NC and have had to be really strong despite my yearnings and he has made several subtle attempts to contact me which I have successfully avoided. I have really stuggled and even though he treated me like rubbish and didn’t care about me at all I have felt really guilty about being NC. There is a voice in my head saying ‘ underneath it all maybe he is a really nice guy’ or ‘ maybe he didn’t mean to be so vile’ etc. I have wondered if I should let him in and give him another chance. I only ever gave him one chance and when the silent treatment came that was the end for me. Maybe I was too harsh on him etc etc? However reading this really really helps to keep me on track and realise, no matter how hard it is, no contact is the only way to go. Thanks for helping me keep this man out of my life. He will ulitimately only bring more misery if he did ever come back. This site is my daily inspiration.
Gullible,
He’s married right? How do you give a MM another chance? Another chance at what? To make you a mistress? It’s too humiliating to count the number of chances I gave the exMM and now I can’t figure out what I was giving him a chance to do. I was just a desperate, lonely mistress with zero self-esteem knocking off somebody else’s husband hoping that one day he’d realize what a catch I was, NOT!
Stay strong and stay NC. Married men don’t deserve a first chance let alone a second chance. Through BR, I finally learned that a married man who lies and cheats on his wife, is NOT a nice man. He’s a liar and a cheater and he is vile. In addition, once you are a mistress, he has to lie to you too in order to conceal the affair. Natalie has written some really good stuff on what it means to be an OW. Try to stop second guessing yourself and trust your gut. You have done the absolute right thing. Also, I’d suggest blocking and deleting him. The two years I spent as mistress were the worst two years of my life. He had his cake, ate it too, and I got crumbs. The only good thing that came of it was that I discovered BR and I’ve spent the last year focusing on me, rebuilding my self-esteem, and addressing why I allowed myself to be a mistress. Quiet the doubting Thomas voices. You can never, ever, ever be too harsh on a lying, cheating MM. Stay NC and focus on your self-esteem. You can do better than settling for crumbs. Hugs to you.
Spot on!
Oh Nat! You just get better and better. So straight, so humorous and so bloody true! Love it. Dread to think where I would be without your wisdom. Hugs 🙂
I am so guilty of this. Giving him another chance time after time. I know why I did this. He caught me at such a vulnerable time. I had just walked out of a volatile situation. Packed all my stuff in my car, had no idea where I was going, but I did know wherever I ended up had to be better than where I was. I was scared but didn’t care . I reached out to him and time after time I was rejected and treated like garbage. I blame it on the years of abuse – it eats your soul. I kept going back for more because if there was ever a time in my life when I needed someone it was then. I finally realized he wasn’t my answer. Four months later I have a beautiful apartment. I look at this place and I’m amazed because I never thought I would be here. I am so thankful for everything I have right now and I am so glad I let him go.
Am I being rejected?
Met a lady (she showed the initial interest), and I asked her out. First date was good. Second date was social, third date was just us. On date number three she tells me she is in the process of trying to get pregnant, via a donor, and that due to her age she has to do it right now or never (she is mid-40s, older than me).
Was I just rejected? Why did she show interest in the beginning only to drop this bomb on me? Should I lose her number? These things only happen to me…
That doesnt sound like rejection, it sounds like a woman telling you straight whats going on in her life. Its up to you to decide if you can live with that or not.
Good for her, she wants a baby and shes getting older. She also presumably would like a man in her life but shes not putting pressure on a man she barely knows to have a child with her. If she was already a single parent would you feel rejected when she told you she had a child, no Im guessing, its a decision she made before you were in her life.
No, it doesn’t only happen to you.
Why is it a bombshell to be told she’s trying to have a kid? It’s just another piece of information she is sharing with you. You’ll have to evaluate it in the context of what you are doing together in terms of moving forward.
I don’t understand how that remark is a “rejection.” ?? Making plans to accept an egg donor is probably a decision she was making a while ago, long before she ever met you and dated you. Therefore, she’s obviously interested in dating regardless of whether the donor stuff goes through or not.
If you like her, keep seeing her. Take it slow, evaluate everything she says, make sure her actions and behaviors are matched by her words, and go from there.
j.d.
pay attention to your feelings about the situation — of rejection, or something like it – at any rate not pleasant, correct? Feel your feelings, think your thinking — they are telling you something about yourself and the hopes you are taking with you to the dates you go on. Is childless, never married a requirement? Are you looking to meet someone to have a family with, and is it a dealbreaker if the other person is or is not? Rejection and incompatibility are obviously not the same thing, but it’s important to recognize and deal with both.
Hi J D, You’re not being rejected – you’re just getting a piece of information that is pertinent to dating her. If she said nothing and you continued dating and then she suddenly showed up with a bump or started throwing up all the time, it would be a bit odd. As Lady Jane basically said, what she said isn’t about you. Be careful of seeing rejection in information – if only more men and women were upfront and gave people the option of making an informed decision, Mr and Miss Unavailables would get very little play. Nothing has ‘happened’ to you so you’ve got to wind your neck in here. If you’re going to lose her number, at least lose it for the right reasons. If you can’t handle the idea that she may get pregnant via donor while you’re dating, man up. That’s all that information is doing – giving you a choice. She showed interest in you because she’s interested in you. She’s trying to have a baby – she’s still human and trying to date. It’s not like she’s just told you that she’s married or has months to live. If she told you that she had kids or a newborn, would you think she’d dropped a bomb on you? I doubt it! I’m not saying that a situation like this shouldn’t give you pause for thought but what I am saying is leave the rejection off the table. Trust me, if she was ‘rejecting’ you, she could just say ‘Thanks for the 3 dates JD, but let’s just leave it at that’.
Just now I called back a guy who I have gone on one date with. He is keen on me, for the moment, that’s pretty clear. I must not be. I didn’t care to pick up the phone yesterday when he called; I didn’t exactly go out of my way to return his call asap. When I got on the phone, I told him I was busy tomorrow but we could make plans for another date during the week. He said, oh, but the weather will be bad over the week. Can you squeeze me in tomorrow – we can go for a walk? I caved and said, okay, we can do something between 2 and 6. So now I’m booked in for a walk.
He’s the most interested (in me) person I’ve seen in a long time. I don’t find him that compelling. It’s weird: I feel how easy it would be to fall into the same behaviours as these ACs. I could, for not wanting to say no thank you, or to bask in a bit of interest, keep managing him by text or email (it crossed my mind!), return calls slowly, etc. In any case, he hasn’t exactly been on my mind.
But then I think I need to give the nice guys second chances … and at the same time, also don’t want a repeat of my early long relationship: “He likes me, he’s nice to me, therefore I should date him.”
Being on the other side of the fence, where I am tempted to treat someone poorly, only reinforces the need to be aware of such behaviour when we’re on the receiving end. I KNOW I’m lukewarm about this dude, but I found myself saying, when he enthused about what a good time he had on Thursday, “Oh yeah, it’s so nice to meet someone who … x and y … insert some nice stuff he did/said here …”.
Not sure if this means I’m not ready to date anyone, or that this dude just doesn’t turn my crank. And I’m the one who asked him out to begin with.
And for what it’s worth, I have been thinking I may have slipped into a new depression. This does not mean anyone needs to put up with crap behaviour from me! It only means I’m responsible for not bringing my unresolved emotional problems to a new relationship!
Hey Magnolia,
I followed your post about your dates last week and you sounded great. I was happy for you. What triggered the new bout of depression? Not the dates, I hope.
I’m sorry I don’t have an answer to your question about the guy that is interested in you but not so much on your part. I am interested, however, in how folks respond. If I were in your situation, I would have the same questions. What is the proper amount of time/chances to discover whether you are interested in a guy? Does a lukewarm first date mean bounce? Clearly, like you say, we don’t want to treat someone poorly or mislead or drag unresloved baggage into a new situation. Since I’ve only been with guys where the za za zu chemistry was there in the beginning (my toxic type), where’s the line?
How was the walk?
Well, the walk was just fine. He’s really nice, very interested. I don’t know if the hesitation – the no thank you – I feel is my emotional unavailability or just a valid disinterest.
If the important thing is me trusting me, and me validating my own opinions, etc., then I conclude that it doesn’t matter. I’m not feeling it.
If it’s my emotional unavailability, then I’m not ready to date yet, and I should cut the guy loose. If I just am not into him, then the course of action is the same. The only difference for me is whether I need to keep dating or take a break from dating.
I certainly feel ungrateful for not feeling it, because who am I to reject a perfectly good person? And I feel it’s risky to trust myself on this one, because hey – I have picked some doozers!! But I must trust myself.
He asked whether we should make plans for the week. I asked him to let me think about it, saying some of the above. He said, “Oh, did I say some bad things?” I said no – and thought, huh, that’s what I would do, assume that I did something wrong (or even now, wondering if I’m doing something wrong). He didn’t do anything wrong.
But he – as do we all – deserves more than being kept around as my option, so I’ll let him know shortly that though I think he’s cool, I don’t think he’s right for me romantically.
And to bring it back to the topic of this post – that means that I forfeit any more chances with him, right, because I’m choosing to reject him as a romantic partner. If I make this call, and decide not to pursue anything romantic, I should expect him to not try to change my mind, and be firm, not flattered and made to waver, if he does try.
Magnolia, you said it – ‘If the important thing is me trusting me, and me validating my own opinions, etc., then I conclude that it doesn’t matter. I’m not feeling it.
If it’s my emotional unavailability, then I’m not ready to date yet, and I should cut the guy loose. If I just am not into him, then the course of action is the same. The only difference for me is whether I need to keep dating or take a break from dating’.
We have to trust ourselves and I’m with you in thinking how difficult this is! I was asked out a few weeks ago and as I had been doing so well I went. he was just like you say this guy is – a nice man, good manners, considerate, good family, worked – so all the values were there, not many mutual interests but thats ok but there was something….something not clicking, a few things that were said….I wasn’t sure. And I didn’t want to get into where I could be the AC so I told him no after the second date. I told myself I had to trust my instincts because my instincts have been right so far but I’ve told them to shut up! If I had trusted myself more I wouldn’t be where I am now.
I don’t know if you should stop dating – maybe – Nat suggested I needed more time but how do we ever know if we are ok to date again – do we just wake up one morning ready?? I think fo ryou listening to yourself and approving of yourself will go a long way to reassuring yourself that you can be trusted and you will be ok.
For me Magnolia, it’s the fact that you feel ungrateful for not feeling it that says that this is all a bit forced. You don’t ‘owe’ every nice person you meet a relationship. You’ve only been on a few dates. You just have to listen to you – it’s not like you’re cancelling a wedding. You can’t miss what hasn’t even started. Just go about your business. You’ll know if you’re ready to date through experience. You can’t really know until you date – sometimes it’s confirmation that you have some work to do, other times it’s just confirmation that you’re willing to listen to yourself. If you go out with several people and it brings up all this thought process, then you know it’s not time yet. No biggie. But really, it’s just a date. There just shouldn’t be all this thinking going on. It’s good that you were upfront but just be careful of telling people *on* the date as you have to be prepared to deal with questions. By using that terminology, you conveyed that you are brooding plus you put yourself on the spot while ending up giving detail. I would have just said “I’ve got a couple of things to sort out but let me give you a call on Tuesday to see what we can arrange” and then you could have thought about it and then spoken with him then.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I still worry a bit that not being interested in someone means I am taking them for granted, or potentially not valuing the right things. Maybe one day soon I will feel more confident that I’m not being arrogant or “too picky” when I acknowledge that there are lots of generally nice people out there who don’t do it for me.
NML, thanks for saying how you would have handled it – I like that you wouldn’t have been lying or false (no “oh yeah, totally, I’ll call you), but that you say just enough to give yourself space to “sort some things out” while being respectful.
In a strange bit of irony, my ex from many many years ago, the one I lived with for over five years, who once emailed me on my bday to tell me his partner was pregnant, emailed me yesterday out of the blue, on the same day as my sister’s wedding shower. He emailed at five in the morning, to give me an update on his life. It was a timely reminder of how I spent years with him because he was a nice guy who let me know I was “crazy” not to appreciate his attentions – though I rejected him again and again and he just fought harder and harder, playing on my doubts that I knew what was good for me.
When I mentioned to my roomie that he had emailed, and wondered aloud if the 5 am emailing me might have been him drunk, she said – “oh it just seems he’s sending you a nice email about his life, just giving you an update.”
Anyway – I wanted to punch her. She did not live with this guy for years who …. ok, breathe. It was the same nauseous feeling that I got when other people thought it was “nice” and “sweet” that my ex would email on my birthday to tell me about his new family, or the feeling I’d get when we were together and he would martyr himself for me and I’d feel like I was an ungrateful bitch as well as suffocating …
See – it’s this kind of thing that confuses the hell out of me. I say I see a guy that I think was manipulative and controlling. My roomie responds to me like I am seeing the worst, and probably distorting, how this guy is. I feel like I have had lots of feedback that says I distort things and that the guys, the people, my family etc that I interact with aren’t as bad as I make them out to be.
I am fighting, really fighting, to take myself seriously and to allow my judgements to stand, calmly, easily and to quell the internal questioning that echoes so many others telling me I don’t know what is good for me.
@Magnolia: Frankly, if your feelings are lukewarm, it’s probably not a good idea to pursue this any further. I don’t think it’s about chemistry, but rather about expecting something positive from the relationship. If you do, you shouldn’t have those mixed feelings I guess.
I’m happy as a single, but in a relationship, I want to be happier. A partner should add something to my life instead of substracting from it. To me, it doesn’t sound as if you’re expecting to be happier together with him than without. Ultimately, it doesn’t even matter whether it’s his fault or yours.
I’m not sure whether I’m right. It’s just my gut instinct.
NML, This post along with the others, is brilliant. I can’t tell you what a relief/education it has been discovering your site and reading the articles and posts. I no longer feel like a loser who can’t seem to have a decent relationship with opposite sex, I realize that many of us have struggled with finding/keeping good relationships. I am learning how to stand up for myself more. I have gone NC with an EUM/AC whose behavior was hot/cold, so addictive! and sickening. I’m in withdrawal :p yes I know it makes no sense. My mind is rational but my heart is without sense. Determined to stay strong. I am now hopeful that one day I will have a great, healthy relationship and it will be because I’m working on me and have set more boundaries and raised my requirements. We’ve got to love ourselves not just a little but a lot. There is nothing wrong with it, it is not selfish. Yes we can care about others but it should not be to the detriment of our well being. I think I missed that memo earlier…
I think most women have been brainwashed as kids by all the fairy tales and chick flicks we have read/watched. It is almost entirely pure fiction. Relationships in general never work that way, maybe as a freak accident for less than one percent of the population and we are not it.
Best to approach relationships more like the way most men do, they shop around, and don’t allow their relationships to define or consume their lives. Most men are busy working on achieving goals in the workplace, school, whatever, relationships are second.
Most women were given baby dolls as children and encouraged to play mothers. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be a wife &/or mother but I believe that kind of stuff along with mass consumption of fairy tales caused many of us to believe that relationships, forming families of our own is most important and that achieving goals outside of that is secondary.That kind of stuff also influenced many of us to define our self worth as to whether or not a men were/are attracted to us and whether or not we currently have a bf/mate regardless of what kind of guy he is or if we’re even happy in the relationship. We need to recognize that thinking for what it is, BS, and do what makes us happy. IT IS BETTER TO BE ALONE THAN WITH SOMEONE WHO DRIVES YOU CRAZY!! Simple but true! I can vouch for this from experience.
I really enjoyed what you said here. We have been brainwashed socially.
Men and women are naturally programmed differently and it is our differences that allows us to work together to teach us new things. I mean can you imagine a world of only men? or only women? However, we must be sure that our differences such as women being more emotional, caring and nurturing (not trying to stereotype anyone here), are not to be abused, but instead appreciated. And this is where our boundaries take place. If we aren’t being appreciated for what we bring to a relationship, we don’t need to give more and more, we need to “bounce”!
Australia,
You’re right men and women are different. Thanks for nice feedback. The problem I think that comes with the type of social conditioning that I mentioned is that it tends to give the message that women are primarily responsible for the health, and success of romantic relationships. That if we don’t have a successful romantic relationship and/or children we are somehow failures. Which is not true. And healthy relationships are partnerships. There is nothing wrong with being single or married. Neither is better than the other. I think that as women most of us (single gals anyways) need to put more focus on careers, and/or other goals than relationships. Builds self esteem and makes us more confident going into relationships. Which helps us make better decisions. I agree that we as women need to form more boundaries.
I wish, I WISH that this blog had been around when I was a teen, and that I had discovered this blog earlier than this year even. I’ve struggled over the past decade with quite a few EUM/AC, if I knew then what I know now I would have run and saved myself a bunch of heartache. Now I know the type I’m naturally drawn to is usually EUM, which is NOT healthy for me. I want to have a healthy relationship. I want to be appreciated and respected. Truly loved. So I’m going to not act on my urge to gravitate towards those types now and maybe it will go away lol. Please add me to your prayer lists. Nothing like falling for guys who play you and then act like you’re crazy for being upset. AC!
I am book smart but I have been so naive, too trusting about some things, no more. Next guy I get in a relationship with I will watch closely and have my family meet. They tell it like it is. Ironically, I never told them about most of them, b/c I knew deep down that they weren’t what most people thought of as “normal” and was embarrassed. Should have been my red flag but I was infatuated didn’t want to acknowledge things probably wouldn’t change…
Most people don’t change massively, I don’t think. Most healthy people become better at managing their sh*t, as they grow up, and, ideally, more relaxed. Those who have groundbreaking, long-lasting changes tend to do so outside a relationship or, if in a relationship, it’s a well-communicated process, driven by the person who wants to change. It feels like you’re doing it as a team, not as a fight for survival, at cross-purposes.
Anyway, this is all very abstract. If you want proof, the very recent ex called today, and he still, somehow, managed to be insulted by me. I was congratulating him on some news, and he somehow made it out as though I was trying to make him feel guilty for having a ‘win’ in the post-break-up phase. I am certain he thought I was being manipulative and demanding (and wanting the win to be about me), whereas I can honestly say my intentions were to convey that I think it’s a great thing for him and that it was well-deserved. I had hoped he would take it in that spirit, trusting that that’s the kind of person I am. If there was any tenseness on my part it might have come from that natural shock that things change so quickly once you’ve busted up, but really, that was not something I was focused on.
This is the thing, a lot of this stuff is out of our hands. My tone/approach came across to him as needy and selfish. While some of what I do and say is jumpy, most often it’s in an excited, keen and positive way, with no intention of guilt-tripping or asking for huge reassurances in return (mostly one wants in return a smile, thank you, compliment or hug or even to be teased in a fun way.).
This guy kept saying in various forms how our break-up was for the best, because we just didn’t work, ‘even though I am a nice person’. I imagine, in his way, he was trying to be brave, and even, possibly calming, whereas part of me found his repetition of how good he feels kind of dishonest or at least off. You see his stuff isn’t coming across to me in the right way – I too am being too sensitive.
So my conclusion is, find someone whose stuff – including (and most importantly) their bad, goes with your stuff, so you can laugh at each other’s foibles and kindly show the way, if that’s what’s wanted. Otherwise, you get sucked down the insecurity vortex. It’s ugly. And, this is where you get rejected in small ways, every day. Forget being rejected twice, if your sh*t don’t match, it’s daily unworthiness.
The more I hear about your ex Elle, the less I like him. I think you have over all of your comments made a point of highlighting how nice he is, possibly because he wasn’t being a jackass but you also weren’t feeling good. Don’t protest too much on his behalf – this man is cold and prickly. *I* feel like I’m causing him an inconvenience just reading about him so lord knows how you feel.
There’s another blatantly obvious reason why I already know you weren’t happy and that this relationship wasn’t right for you – because you spent so much of your time questioning how and what you feel, casting your eye over your behaviour, and ended up becoming too keenly aware of your every reaction. If you feel happy about something, there’s external evidence to support it – there wasn’t. That doesn’t mean you didn’t have good times but the overall relationship left you hungry.
Right on, Elle. It’s the daily unworthiness, the oozing disapproval, that kills your spirit by millimeters. Spectacular rejection might be better.
Hi Elle,
When I read your comment, I thought two things– first, that there’s a reason why people take a break from talking to one another after breaking up if they are going to be friends later. It’s too fresh, you’re both still too entangled in the dynamics that didn’t work and too vulnerable. Take some time away from one another so that when and if you do decide to talk what he says or doesn’t say, or does or doesn’t do doesn’t hurt- and visa versa. Second, he doesn’t actually sound that nice– sounds like he was passive aggressively trying to make you feel bad about breaking up by repeatedly telling you how great he’s doing now that you’re apart. Take care- even if it hurts you did the right thing. It’s inspiring to read that you learned from your mistakes and took action when a relationship didn’t feel right!
Thanks again guys. You’re right. There was coldness and prickliness, and a defensiveness bordering on paranoia (had a good giggle at your comment, Nat). I didn’t feel valued and enjoyed, and I could see it on top of feel it. In the final weeks, he started to do the ‘flash stare’ disapproval thing, when I was being assertive or jovial or affectionate in public. And I do defend him, because I can see that he is decent and conscientious, it’s “just” that he is also completely tied up in his own emotions and plans for success. I didn’t count for much in the end (actually, from the middle). So, yes, I am glad I pulled back, and then out, without losing myself. (In any case, he has now turned it around to say he left me because I was too needy and demanding and not right for him, but I can live with that). Ideally, I would have left earlier (when he denied that I might be feeling the way I did – that’s the part I am still a little angry about, but not majorly, as really up to me to protect me), but still a massive improvement on the AC. My next task is to focus on myself (again) for a good while, instead of trying to find someone for company, and wait, in a more gentle way, for a guy who is better suited to a relationship in general, and me in particular. Thanks Izzybell – completely agree. Even said that to him (that we shouldn’t analyse right now). He wants to meet to give my things back to me, but I think I’ll just get them sent. No need for another round of this.
I think it’s good to focus on yourself Elle. I too had what I called a ‘tester’ relationship after the x AC. It lasted about 5 months before I pulled the plug. I have talked to him once since then and it was the same as with you, talking about what happened and it was awkward and felt like I was getting insulted again. I blocked him immediatley afterward. He was never as bad as the AC, but none the less, the last encounter post break up left me shakey and I don’t want to go through it again. I wanted to move forward and visiting with him about what went wrong and hearing all the things that he found wrong or incompatible with me was not in my best interest. With your new awareness, you know what was up and what wasn’t up on the relationship. Move forward and learn from it. I was really bummed when I first opted out, second guessed myself, the works but found that after a bit of time went by, it was not near as painful as the breakup with the ex AC. The difference is that now I have some self worth and didn’t feel like I’d lost everything. My self esteem is not as easily striped away and it made a huge difference in my recovery. I suspect you will find the same and feel similar. Give it some time. Don’ t communicate with him for a bit so you can get your bearings and being friends can happen down the road if still you want it.
Stop defending him Elle – of course we want the best for you, but you don’t have to defend what doesn’t need defending. There’s never any need to villainise a person but you don’t need to boost them either. He might be conscientious at work but he wasn’t conscientious with you. If he had been, he might have empathised and respected your position more instead of treating you like a numpty with an overactive imagination. The whole staring thing tells me that he is very concerned with his image and a little too preoccupied with snuffing out your spark. Don’t let anyone steal your wind!
It’s been hovering for a while, but I suspect that he is a little threatened by you. I think he’d prefer someone that isn’t quite as intelligent and just slots in. Unquestioning, happy with whatever he throws out. That’s not you.
Yeah, thanks Nat. I suspect I am defending him because it was such a burden having the assclown as a villain in my mind. I felt closer to the villain than I did him, in the end!
But, yeah, you’re almost certainly right. Most things I did – whether they were sparkling, nurturing and affectionate, or, at worst, intellectual and critical (not always critical of him, mind, sometimes just analytical about things, my life etc) – seemed to be twisted into something ugly and threatening.
I am getting slightly weary of these men who say they want a life partner to be able to talk to them and interest them, but, actually, kind of don’t in real life. Plus, you can’t seem to ‘win’ because even your softer, gentler so-called feminine qualities are regarded as a burden or smothering.
It’s funny you should say, ‘it’s [this person] not you.’ My little brother said the same. Plus, he said, ‘would you really want to be like that for someone else?’ Probably not, though I am taking some of this feedback about making your man feel more like a man to heart. You know, all that stuff about whether you are or are not allowing a man to feel strong and capable. (Recent ex shut me down for giving him a driving tip. Said it was not something you should say to a guy. In hindsight, maybe not cool, but was really trying to be helpful and was in no way sarcastic or belittling. In any case, wouldn’t you just be able to tell someone – ie me – to piss off in a funny way?).
OK, slow down, tiger. I am clearly in the anger/bitterness phase. I should be done in a few days, and I know this will all pass, and I can see the humour and light in it. I can see that this guy just wasn’t right for me, and that I’ve averted a disaster down the track.
Flash stare = a sign of someone trying to steal your wind, as Natalie says. SO TRUE!
Jealous guy.
Should you dump after one case of Dripfeed if you have only been going out a little while? Also what if you have been going out a long time? I’m just wondering because a few of my exes have done this, one did it only after a few weeks (lying about the length of time he spent at a really dodgy place he had professed he wouldn’t go to only a few nights before .. while i was at home sick in bed lol.) … what do you do if they argue ‘well at least I corrected my lie and told you the truth, I could have not told you at all’ .. another ex did this as well .. the whole ‘I could have not told you’ thing about about something equally shady … This lying technique almost seems worse because once they do it YOU know they have been lying and your left there sitting wondering what else they are lying about and how much left of their story is yet to come. Manipulative and cruel.
Of course you dump. That is a clear-cut case. Lying is one thing, almost in all cases enough of a thing, but trying to make you feel grateful that you were told the truth is childish and creepy. This is entry-level stuff.
Maybe one of you wise women (and men) could advise me if this is giving someone a second chance or not. This isn’t a romantic situation anymore, but a friend. We knew each other from working in the same city, but now live in different countries and dated at that time. He emails me every single day jokes, news stories and pictures etc and if I reply and make a comment about his joke/story/picture he will reply back, but if I ever ask “how are you?” or something personal he doesn’t respond. I find this very strange. The first time he didn’t respond I thought it was a once off, but then he responded to other comments about the pictures, so I asked him again how he was and still he didn’t respond. If he doesn’t want to be my friend, I wish he would just stop emailing me, because it’s just ridiculous and it’s starting to really irritate me. I’m worried that if I just stop responding to his emails he won’t understand why, but that if I explain, I will seem needy.
Lavendar if you ask your girlfriends how they are, do they respond? Thats your answer.
So true!! Agh!
@Lavender,
Is it really important for you to have him understand why you don’t want to respond to his emails? Why are you worried that he won’t understand you? Is he that important to you? Why is it so important for us to be liked and to come across as non-aggressive and not to be misunderstood? Do you want to waste your energies and time on someone who cannot even be bothered to conduct a personal conversation? If you find them annoying, the best reaction you can give is to ignore them, don’t engage with him anymore and he will get the point. Actions speak louder than words. The more you explain, the more ammunition you give him to poke holes and he will probably just turn a deaf ear to you anyway and think “aha here is another over-reactionary woman who talks too much. Please shut up and continue to indulge me in my childish fun”. He sounds like a rude, childish, beggar-joker starving for female attention and whatever you toss to him, he will lap it up and expect you to always respond in future, thus establishing a certain type of dynamic between you both. He wants to have a “friendship” with you based on his terms and he sets the agenda as to what will be discussed, what subjects are off-limits. Do you really want a friendship with him?
With my ex-EUM, the SMS exchanges became livelier and the frequency of responses increased correspondingly with the frivolity barometer (he telling me he liked women in black stockings, shaved women), he was so quick to reply when it came to sexting! But when I expressed genuine care and concern asking him about his work, health and divorce situation, taking the effort to actually craft mature and thoughtful responses, my questions would be ignored, disregarded or a one sentence reply of “I am ok”/”how r u” would arrive 5 days or a few weeks later.
Lavender,
Honestly, he doesn’t sound like a friend. Friendship goes both ways. It sounds like he has simply included you with others in his daily e-mails. No more.
I would simply block and or ignore the e-mails, and DO NOT send him an explanation. You owe no explanation.
What is the history with this guy? This isn’t the guy that blew you off , is it?
@JadeSesame – “Do you want to waste your energies and time on someone who cannot even be bothered to conduct a personal conversation?” No 🙁 Thank you for your advice. I think he’s probably sending these to lots of women just for the attention.
@Allison – No he’s not the guy who blew me off. I used to date this email sender guy several years ago when I lived in his city. It was only for a few months and we broke up when I left. Since then he’s been sending these jokes and stories to me every day.
@Nat – You’re so right. You’re also really funny. He is a tit. 🙂 I’m only just learning to differentiate the tits from the non-tits.
Lavender, just stop emailing him. You’re thinking far too much about this and clearly he isn’t. In fact, I’d filter out his emails. Don’t concern yourself with what he might think – joke emails don’t warrant a reply. You should concern yourself of what you think of you. You’re not beg a friend – stop chasing up this tit.
*You’re not beg a friend – stop chasing up this tit.”
LMHO 🙂
Lav, this guy is not concerning himself one bit about what YOU might think of HIM when he ignores YOU! He doesn’t care a toss what you think.
I’m probably just making his head even bigger by responding. I don’t even like him at all romantically, so I’m not sure why I’m wasting so much mental energy wondering about it. I guess with being on the site I am thinking about all my interactions.
I wish I had found this site ages ago. I have made mistakes and have regrets. I clearly need to be more assertive. But how? I have put up with too much BS before. It’s like I’m a good girlfriend and never cheat, yet I get dumped by complete ACs. They don’t even deserve someone like me.
Also I am always tempted to contact ex ACs just to hurt them for a change. To say hey I met someone that treated me far better than you ever did.
Hi Fedup, there’s a difference between being a good girlfriend and being a doormat. If you have put up with too much and have been with people you regard as ACs, there’s nothing in that behaviour that says ‘good girlfriend’. They’re not giving out relationship scholarships and honorary relationship doctorates for women’s services to men that take the piss while we keep throwing our ‘love’ and ‘good selves’ at them.
And I will say this again because you keep posting comments about how you want to do this and that to people – being angry is a natural part of the grieving process but becoming an asshole for asshole’s sake isn’t. You are clearly finding it difficult to cope with your anger – get the additional help and support you need. Because trust me, if you go and do a round robin on all your exes, you’ll feel good momentarily (possibly) and then feel like a jackass, embarrassed or even ashamed, which will put you back to square one.
FedUp
You need a distraction. Have you thought of embroidery or knitting (or whatever rocks your boat)? There’s a reason women through the centuries have taken up these hobbies. It takes your mind off the AC and it’s in our human nature to be creative. Take up a hobby and you have a nice cushion or scarf to show for it, rather than revenge fantasies and a restraining order.
I’ve starting knitting and find it very soothing. It’s hard to be mad at the world when you’re in Liberty’s looking at the different colour yarns. There’s so much in the world to be enjoyed, life just isn’t long enough! Do try not to waste it obsessing about a loser.
When I started counselling my one and only objective was Not To Have Sex with the MM. That was achieved, but so much more. There’s more to life and to you than this unpleasantness. Lift your head up.
Ugh! Yesterday I was chatting with a lady at the nail salon. She was telling me that she had taken a year off from dating after breaking up a 6 year relationship and how the dating world has completely changed from the last time she was single. Seems the first guy she dated for about a month where they were getting along great with regular contact just up and disappeared, no call, warning nothing. Then he reappears 2 weeks later and has continued to make plans to get together with her but they never materialize. She tells me this has happened about 10 times and she finally cut him off but he keeps calling leaving messages saying he really wants her. She also finds out he’s not divorced as he had stated but separated for 2 years.
So it seems to me if we would cut these men off on the first infraction and not go forward to continue experiencing assclown behavior, that we all might have a better attitude about the dating world in general, myself and this girl included.
when he disappears he is either with his “ex” or another woman.
First and foremost, this site has been such a support! Whenever, I start to question myself, I come here and start reading articles and comments. It is so helpful. Now that does not mean I always listen, I still sometimes make the stupid mistake of reaching out or something, but this sites reminds me I am only human and reinforces my beliefs and goals.
So, I met a guy we talked everyday for about 7 weeks. We went out to breakfast, lunch, dinner and just visited at each other’s house. I have enjoyed him, but there is an ex-girlfriend back in the picture. I felt as long as we did not kiss passionately etc we could still talk as friends. Than of course, we did kiss passionately and much more. Right after that, I am the one who called him and said Good-bye. I did it, because he is still on the fence about the ex-girlfriend. He is talking with her, and seems worried about her. I can not be second, it is not healthy and it hurts. So I told him that while I was not rejecting him….I was rejecting the situation! I told him I was disappointed and hurt by the situation. Now I am thinking about him, feeling weak, wondering if I did the right thing…all those stupid feelings that happen once you put your boundary in place. I know I did the right thing for me in the long run, but it is hard….we talked everyday and now there is a hole in my world. I would love it if he would call me and want to actually date me without her in the picture..but he has to call me and the waiting is hard. I should not be waiting! I should assume I will never hear from him and focus on moving forward, but that is so hard. We had a good connection, we had fun, the talk and laughter was easy. This is the second guy right in a row who had another woman, what are the odds of that? The last guy, I hung with for almost a year. I will not do that again, I was crushed. I have to admit my confidence and self esteem have taken huge hits with guy two doing basically the same thing. I realize it is me who ended the relationships both times, but for both guys I was second and that has hurt my self confidence. I have always been a confident, independent person so this is new. How do I get my self-confidence back? I guess just keep focusing on me and that I am unique, giving, loving…they are the losers….but this is difficult. Reading your blogs does help.
Lenna,
I totally get you. I dated a guy that was not over his ex, when we finally getting to be something and I got to be introduced to his family and spend thanksgiving and Xmas and new year, next thing you know she started fighting with her boyfriend and didnt take to much to put herself in a place where supposedly she didn’t have where to live so he took her back. It was crushing, they ended up separating again like 3 months later, but no way I would take him back, he tried and it was temping but being second fiddle is not a good place to be, will never fill loved there. And all the time we were together I was afraid he wasn’t over her and had the fear he one day wold take her back, so even the “good times” weren’t so good, were tainted with fear, which became reality. It’s hard, but you better skip that one.
Allie and Lenna,
I, too, dated a guy for 14 months who was not over his ex. During the time we were together I also felt as though she was always in the background (and although he had ceased all contact with her, she was still in his thoughts and he secretly compared every woman whom he met to her). I broke up with him once because my intuition told me that I was second best in his heart. Unfortunately, I listened to friends say things like, “It’s normal to still have feelings for one’s ex. I still think about and have feelings for my ex even though I’m happily married to my husband.” I learned a valuable lesson: listen to your first mind and follow it. Other people may have good intentions, but they don’t always know what’s best for you. Listening to my friends, I went back to him and we continued on for a year–until he admitted that he did not feel the same intensity for me as he did for his ex. The kicker is that he’s in love with a woman who doesn’t love him! She criticizes him for being too short, too weak, etc. In his eyes though, she’s the salt of the earth. Go figure! Lenna, you did the right thing girl. Hold your head up high and keep on steppin’ cause you just dodged a bullet.
Same thing happened to me. My ex took calls from his ex late at night, text messaged with her, sometimes left in the middle of a weekend together because she was upset about something, and talked constantly about the past and how he’d been wronged (he’d been divorced 2 years). they had kids, so for a long time he would tell me it was about the kids and he had to respond for that reason. In any case, I felt like his therapist, not his girlfriend.
After a year where it became increasingly clear he wasn’t available for a relationship, I broke up with him. For two months he called, texted, emailed– told me he could be better, that he was in therapy dealing with his issues, that things were getting better, and that he loved me and wanted to marry me. Zero evidence that anything really had changed, and I told him to stop calling me.
Within a week he showed back up on a dating site. So much for loving me and wanting to work out his stuff so we could have a future together! This was the nail in the coffin for me, it made me realize that he had just been using me as a buffer, treating me like a mistress (although he wasn’t married anymore!) and that he just needed someone, anyone, to help him escape from his feelings of failure and lonliness. It wasn’t really about me at all.
Hi Lenna, the odds are not overwhelming high but the odds are there. See many of the comments on this and other posts? They’re primarily from women not over their exes. Of these, there is a pretty decent sized portion who are still dating others anyway. This is why there are so many Unavailable relationships. You did the right thing. What were you supposed to do? Hang around while he figured out what he wanted? Not gonna happen, not least because if you’re there, he doesn’t have to and gets to avoid his feelings while getting a shag, ego stoke etc.
There’s no reason to lose your self confidence in these relationships. Two guys not over their exes just tells you to 1) not entertain men who are transitioning and 2) ensure you’re doing the discovery phase of dating before you feel ‘all in’. You have to go back out there with your eyes and ears open. Why beat yourself up for using your judgement? You should be clapping yourself
Ladies,
The best thing that you can do when rejected by an AC/EUM/FF, is to go Bermuda Triangle on their asses. Actions speak louder than words. As my late mother used to say, “I can show you better than I can tell you.” So pretend like you flew over the Bermuda Triangle and vanish into thin air on these clowns.
hee hee hee … Gina, I love your comment! Bermuda Triangle sounds like a great place to be 🙂
Gina you are 100% correct.
Be nowhere to be found on the planet. Disappear. Be around people who love you.
I love what your mother said, so true.
Gina, I’d like to give a double thumbs-up to you and your mother’s wisdom. So well said and your Bermuda Triangle saying has me laughing my head off! 🙂
I love this post! And Natalie I totally agree with the comment that one should distance themself or avoid totally, a narcissist; been there done that once with an AC and all through my childhood…. I grew up with two narcissitic parents “did my time” and I am so not looking to go back into that prison.
It is one thing when you are a child and you have no option to walk away; as a adult you don’t need to give narcissists “second chances”; plus, damn are they easy to spot now that I have read so much on this website! I swear internet dating especially is just making me LMFAO; so many classic narcissists and you can easily tell from the profile and/or what they write to you when they approach you; hello I am not giving you one chance reformedbadboy or urbancowboy who is 48 and who brags about his 2 divorces and then states that he wants a “quality woman” but “slightly naughty” “you must look great in a two-piece”: who created these dingbats:)! FLUSH!!!!
Yes I think that things are much more joyous in life when you can just flush that handle, laugh at the first “chance” and move on; why waste precious brain energy giving second chances when the bulk of respectful people already are grown-up adults and they don’t put you in a position to NEED to give a second chance!
Amen dancingqueen. You are right to act for your own self preservation. A double helping of narcissism is a lot to grow up with. I find that online dating has a glut of narcs – it just makes their job easier for having delusions of grandeur and finding new targets. “must look great in two-piece” *snorting with laughter*
Nat,
Wise words… I would have saved myself a world of heartache if I’d only not given the last ex one more chance. Before we dated, I had a heart to heart with him. We had been “friends” for 3 years, had been on a couple of dates, but I suspected he wasn’t over a recent ex. So I asked him what he wanted of me, was he available, and what he wanted out of a relationship. The answer was, a seriously committed relationship, drama free, and starting a family within five years. He swore he was over his most recent ex. We spent the night together. 48 hours later, he came to my house to tell me he was getting back with her. I accused him of mindf*ckery and kicked him out of my house, calling him toxic and saying a grown man doesn’t treat women this way! I am embarrassed when I think about it now, but it had been years of ambiguous communication and hints that things would be so wonderful if the timing was right, and I’d had it!
I went NC, but I spoke openly with a mutual friend how much I missed him, then I heard from her how he had broken up with the ex and loved me. Had loved me for years. Months later he wrote me a letter, trying to explain his actions, claiming he’d gone to therapy, and we started talking again. Although I had started dating an available man, I confused the pain I associated with the ac/eum as proof that I loved him (yes I was confused, thinking love must equal some pain!). I folded, told him I loved him, but that I was afraid of trusting him. I broke it off with the other man because I knew it wouldn’t be fair to him. Within a couple of months of dating I had the official title/brass ring of the AC/EUM’s girlfriend. Did it turn out to be a wonderful relationship? No!
Aside from not even being close to Prince Charming, I was never able to fully trust him because of how he’d acted before we ever got together. I was anxious although I hid it well, even from myself. I feared he was just going to leave, out of the blue, though I didn’t want to admit it. He was saying the right things, taking me to meet his family, ect. Then, 18 months later, my fear became reality, he made a decision about the relationship without talking to me even once, and dumped me right before I was going to move in (his idea). A year later he was already engaged to someone else. He is essentially the same person I had kicked out years before. It was a lesson I had to learn. But its reassuring to think that if I could have just said “I am glad you are going to therapy and you feel it is working for you, however, I am no longer interested in pursuing a relationship with you. You only get one chance with me and it passed” that I would have spared myself all of the grief. “When someone shows you who they really are, believe them” – Maya Angelou. No second chances!!
@ Jasmine – Correction: May said, “When someone shows you who they are THE FIRST TIME, believe them.”
I was scheduled to go out on a date with an AC that I met on the internet. I gave him my #, which is an out-of-state #, because I’d moved here to be with my ex EUM/FF and didn’t change it over. Anywho, the guy sends me an email cursing me out saying “F**k you!!” and that I had issues because he thought that I had given him the wrong #!! Obviously, he didn’t try calling the #. Otherwise, he would have gotten through to me. I was actually relieved that he showed me who he was BEFORE I went out with him. I immediately blocked him, did not respond, and let him think that he’d been given the wrong # so that he would not try and contact me again. Whew!! Thank god I dodged a bullet on that one!
@Gina… thanks for clearing that up, Maya’s proper quote is EVEN more to the point! As for your date, wow, what a classy guy! Even if he felt you had given him the wrong number, the way he reacted speaks volumes… You know, if he was that easily riled and nasty, I’m sure something would have happened on the first or second date to show you his true colors pretty quickly!
Jas
Whoa what an asshole you sure did dodge a bullet!!
Rereading the first paragraph I am struck again by the femme asking him out, LICKING his ear…gross! She was on the make with your friend…I wouldn’t go out with her again either, not because of what happened after, but because of the lick! So, in fact, I saw him acting as some women do…unacceptable closeness but hey! Let’s try it again…he bounced her but AFTER she had already proven she was going to move REALLY FAST without getting to know him as a person…at any rate I think your friend made the right choice as the femme sounds really yucky…I’m squirming just imagining it…EEEEUUUWWW
Yeah it gives me a mega cringe when I think of it Leisha. Funny thing is though he thought it was very sexy. Even funnier though is that I think she lost interest when he asked her out. Maybe she didn’t think he’d say yes when she asked him – now he’s not being so hard to get. I agree though – that was a fast move.
Well, my reptile brain is thinking that he thought he could “get some” b/c she was moving so fast, and …and she prob realised after that lick she was going to be expected to indulge in sex play on the second date ( that is harsh, but I think it likely); and SHE was now being pursued and so the dare, “thrill”, conquest, chase, etc was not there…who knows…ah well, what one considers okay is not necessarily peachy for another…dang tho, GROSS
Natalie, I can’t tell you how much your blog has helped me regain some self respect. I was recently dumped by a guy who basically used me after I gave him a second chance. The first time, we were engaged, but by the time Christmas rolled around (4 months after our engagement), there was no ring, he hadn’t told his family, and he suddenly contracted a mysterious penis infection (which turned out to be non-specific urethritis). Although he denied any unfaithfulness and insisted he wanted to marry me, I broke it off, but soon found myself wondering whether I had overreacted. There were signs that things weren’t right; he was chronically late for our dates, “overslept” for some of them, showed up drunk, borrowed money from me, made misogynistic comments (like “men only cheat because women are controlling”), and put his friends and family first. But he was also very loving, kind, and generous, and had seemed so crazy about me in the beginning. Believing the good outweighed the bad, I agreed to another go-around, which proved to be a huge mistake. The “relationship” never progressed. He was focused on something outside the relationship — I can only guess what — and I didn’t notice that he was feeding me crumbs. Then one day, out of the blue, he told me he would never be able to marry me because I’m divorced — a fact he had known for 3 1/2 years and an issue we had discussed at the beginning of our “relationship.” Even worse, he admitted that he had slept with me knowing that he was going to dump me over the divorce issue. Needless to say, I was stunned and devastated, but I learned a valuable lesson not to give someone a second chance to disrespect me.
This post inspired a question, which probably has been already answered in this blog somewhere, but could it be, that those men know from the start that: “l know lm gonna dump her anyway, but l don´t let her know that, because then l wont get sex, ego stroke, just an entertainment for my otherwize so boring and messed world, and its nice to know someone is into me.” and then they push on the hot phase, right?
Ria,
Yes, you are 100% correct. I actually have more respect for George Clooney, because he tells the women he dates, upfront, that he has no intention of marrying them. My ex EUM/FF was an opportunist who initiated talk of a future together (i.e. marriage), knowing full well that he was still hooked on his ex, as well as the unhealthy relationship that they had, and had no intention, whatsoever, of marrying me. Which, in hindsight, was a blessing in disguise.
You are well shot of that piece of lying flesh!
GettingStronger, what a dicksplash! Talk about a weak, pathetic excuse! Funny how he knew it all along but didn’t mind using you up. I think you’ll even find as time goes on that what you thought was so loving and great wasn’t that great. If you’re being mucked around, getting a crumb feels like a loaf.
I have a friend who was told by her 40 something ex that he always saw himself being married to someone inexperienced, like a virgin. She laughed hard. She said “Have you looked at yourself in the mirror lately?!” and bounced him out of her flat.
I am really needing the support of these posts and comments right now. I have given both my exes chance after chance. I think my self esteem must be on the floor. I understand why I have behaved the way I have – my mother would withdraw from me and I would have to dance the fandango blindfold on a unicycle to get her to notice me and so I chose the same in my ex husband and in the last ex. My ex h would ‘disappear’ night after night and all day at the weekends, bringing out the needy resentful me and the ex bf would be uncontactable for days, weeks sometimes without any explanation whatsoever but usually after I had done something wrong! Both men added into the mix their god given rights to tell me what sort of person I was too – disgusting, useless, controlling, secretive….with the ex bf things would be great and then something I’d do or say and he’d shout at me and then withdraw and I would run round begging him to come back…..omg I’ve seen posts on all this. But I did it because I believed / believe he is the only person who ‘gets’ me we share so many of the same experiences….except that I did start thinking ‘would someone who knew how badly abused you’d been treated, treat you the same way if they loved you?’ In the summer I realised how destructive this was becoming to me and went into NC. I was doing well, starting to feel more positive, making moves to change aspects of myself, love myself, try and be more social (I have my children with me 12 days out of 14, I know no other single parents who are not in a relationship and have become quite isolated) I was doing well and then wham! I let him back in again – answered a text for a catch up’, I’m feeling good so why not? And now I feel the same attachment creeping up. Its like he knows I have no one to talk to and really enjoys getting into me. He texts saying he is concerned about me but I’m not sure what he would do…he lives on benefits and has no money to ring me, conducts everything by text, never comes to see me, never suggests we go out – just texts and I hate texting! How can I say how I am by text??!! And this week I showed concern for him and no reply for 2 days which sends me doolally! I just wanted it to be ok but it won’t will it? I’m so needy and ashamed. Back to feeling bad about myself. So its great that I have BR and back to NC!
Jane, my heart went out to you when I read your post. No more chances for the exh or the exAC. “…my mother would withdraw from me and I would have to dance the fandango blindfold on a unicycle to get her to notice me and so I chose the same in my ex husband and in the last ex.” I so totally get this only with my father. Now I’m noticing that I have to dance the fandango blindfold on a unicycle to get me to notice me. I don’t think you are being “needy”. A wife has a reasonable expectation that a husband comes home to be with his wife and children. That’s why you were married, right? I’m not inclined to view the expectation that a husband would be with his wife as “needy”. If a bf is really a bf, a reasonable expectation would be that he would be in contact, right? I absolutely hate texts too. There is no possible way to have an authentic relationship via text. I know the feeling of shame but I’ve been working on turning that shame into being accountable for my well-being. There’s no one watching out for me; It’s up to me to watch out for me. That’s not needy or shameful. It’s reality. I also know how these types tap into our need to talk to somebody. You can talk with us. You are so fortunate to have your kids with you. Nurture and love them and yourself. Bounce the exh and the exAC. They don’t seem to be adding any value to your life…added value is an econ term. It seems to apply in relationships too. What added value does the exh and exAC bring to your life? No added value=bounce.
Jane – Dump the feckless texter again, and keep doing it till it works – what the hell use is that rubbish – yes, you cannot say how you are by text and that’s how interested he is in an answer to his question – he’s not even offering you the opportunity to tell him! try to get out and meet some new people – you may feel isolated but these useless tossers are not solving that for you, are they? They’re only making things worse.
Hang in there!!
Thanks. I read others’ stories about how they stopped caring for themselves and then took up running or exercising and now feel great and I want that for myself. Like you say runnergirl – ”There’s no one watching out for me; It’s up to me to watch out for me. That’s not needy or shameful” It is reality. In the last 3 years I have divorced, changed job, moved house and completed a degree because I was so unhappy with my ‘old’ life. I should be jumping for joy at being rid of the ex h and it should have given me the strength to not let it happen again – but I have felt rejected by them! Wta?? I have no family – just my kids – who I do adore and am so grateful for, I do want a loving relationship but whilst I’m so low on myself all I’m going to attract are the Ac’s who see they can make the most of my low self worth. I have to start believing I’m worthy! And THEN think about dates. And in the meantime realise that relationships that don’t add value don’t get in. Thanks
“It occurs to me though that we must wonder when we dish up all these chances for him to make a better relationship with us – who is it really that we are offering these opportunities to? Are we really offering them to him – or to ourselves?”
@Fearless,
these are really pertinent questions. You talk about how our unconscious motivations cast a problematic shadow on the concept of giving– we ostensibly give them chances, when it is actually us trying to assert our own needs. NML’s post reiterates the importance of not giving someone carte blanche and multiple chances like freebies, with no expiry date. But when we persist in giving chances to someone who isn’t even looking for depth or a meaningful, mutually fulfilling relationship, whose needs aren’t on par with ours, and rejects us continuously in a myriad of ways, I think it says something about an unconscious self-loathing, masochistic behaviour. We deprive ourselves of taking a shot at healthy, wholesome love. My gut instinct was: “I can’t believe you can reject me. I’m going to stay and prove that I’m not rejection-able material. You may be a narcissist but I’m going to stay and show you that I can love you in spite of who you are and your abuse”. We try to buy more time to prove ourselves as lovable, love-worthy, capable of loving abundantly. I know this was my fixation. I needed the ex-EUM to need me, when he clearly didn’t, to communicate and share intimacy (I needed this, he was not interested in this), I projected my own needs onto his but the fact is that I needed him and was quite terrified over the prospect of him not being in my life at all while he was perfectly OK on his own, happy to have me as side entertainment (he had his whole life and career set up for him and was not into self-reflection or about cultivating real care for someone else, maybe even himself, apart from excessive preening). Such was the huge discrepancy and imbalance. To recognize that he didn’t need me in a deep, meaningful way but only in a limited capacity, that he could continue to disrespect and perpetuate this callous silent treatment in spite of all I’d done/felt/showed/communicated, all that was very very difficult to accept and made it virtually impossible to walk away.
Jade,
am totally with you on everything you just said.
this made me shiver:
“I think it says something about an unconscious self-loathing, masochistic behaviour.”
Yes, but weird to se it in black and white! I couldn’t understand why I felt so drawn towards what I found so predictably hurtful. I knew I was being masochistic.. and am still struggling with that impulse.
Also:
“To recognize that he didn’t need me in a deep, meaningful way but only in a limited capacity, that he could continue to disrespect and perpetuate this callous silent treatment in spite of all I’d done/felt/showed/communicated, all that was very very difficult to accept and made it virtually impossible to walk away.”
Yes. That’s it. It was so difficult to just accept it.
You are a very clever woman Jade. Thanks for your comments. I hope you keep posting.
Update on one date guy. I had gotten my mojo back and last night I ran into him. The guy who is here three months and was living day to day if any of you remember. I told him no because I saw that words and actions would be an issue – as in let’s do all these things, but I am here for three months and “take each day at a time” mentioned more than once. Then I called him back because my aunt told me to be more open. Sheesh.
Anyhow, ran into him last night. And he was kissing on the forehead and the mouth a woman he met on the same night as me. Charming. And then I broke NC, and looked at his facebook. He had posted a photo them together as his PROFILE picture from Halloween. They have been seeing each other 6 weeks – (7 MAXIMUM if he was asking her out at the same time). But, I did leave immediately so I did not even talk to him, and I am mostly sure he did not see me, and if he did see me, and not even look up, then he is an ass.
And I have felt like crap all day – why her and not me? When maybe I should be thrilled that I escaped the “I love love” trainwreck which ends in heartache (Or maybe marriage, who the heck knows) when he leaves town? He is getting the tour guide he was looking for, and she gets all the attention from day one. More sheesh. WHY OH WHY DO I EVEN GIVE A GODDAMN CR*P??? WHY IS MY SELF ESTEEM BACK IN THE CRAPPER????????????? URGGHHHHHHHH
Sassy – cos it hurts!
But tomorrow you will pick yourself up, dust yourself down, tell yourself again that you are better than his shit, cos you so are! The trick is to keep breathing. Oh, and wear your best gear tomorrow and walk tall! It works wonders for me!
I do love all of the opinions and comments. In the last two relationships I had both gentleman made comments about how they were honest. With the first relationship, I thought it is true he has always been truthful about the other woman. Now, I know honesty in itself can be a justification and a way of making their actions O.K. in their own heads. That is not true! It does not matter if they told you their is another woman, if their actions do not match their words. I believe it is an attempt to justify and ease the guilt. As hard as it is I said goodbye and am not reaching out. Do I hope he will call me and say he did not go back with the ex that dumped him a year ago…yes….but he only has a short amount of time and if he goes back for 3 months and than she breaks up with him, I can not be available because won’t I still be second?
Yes you will be second, and more likely she also is EUM and he is her fallback guy. It might never end.
Love this post. It’s great reinforcement for everything I’ve learned from reading this site for over a year. I know better how to look at situations now and judge accordingly. I was always too nice and people got away with making me their doormat but the fog has lifted and now if someone is an a-hole to me, I’m out. What reason would I stay? I don’t have time for it anymore and being single is way better that begging for love or respect from someone who won’t give it without a price. Natalie, your message is so matter of fact and point on. Thank you so much for helping me find my way. : )
I’m currently reading “This is How Love Works” by Steven Carter (2001). It may be a book that is getting a little ahead for some folks here who are still grappling with how to handle the EU guys currently in their lives, but it has some great inspirational tips on what a healthy honest emotionally “present” relationship looks like.
He opens the book discussing the “grand gesture” view of relationships. These are the people who live for the holidays, the trips abroad, the candlelit dinners at the 5-star restaurants, the yearly ski trips, ad nauseam. The problem is that this type of relationship often has the small day-to-day intimacies and closeness missing. He makes the argument that most of the building of a good solid relationship is taking place in the quieter moments and smaller spaces of our lives. I tend to agree, in that true intimacy comes from the small day-to-day interactions we have with our partners embedded in the “small stuff.”
With a lot of EUMs (mine in particular!), this is the stuff that’s missing. It’s why the relationship never gets off the ground, it’s why they can’t “do” a relationship the way we need and want it done. Because they can’t rise to the level of offering up the small respectful loving gestures day to day, week after week, that make the relationship a loving and trustful one.
EUMs require that we live for a “grand view” type of relationship. When someone disappears, reappears, gaslights, backspaces or refreshes, how could we possibly expect anything else? A “grand gesture” is a freaking phone call once a week. It’s an invitation to do something – anything! – together because they are absent 90% of the time. The “grand gestures” make up for all the “small space” gestures of theirs that are insulting, disrespectful, hurtful, or just plain missing.
@Molly. Never heard of this book before, but your comment makes a lot of sense to me!
I seems like the minute I meet someone who could potentially be a nice guy, he pulls a jackass move on me! I guess this is God’s way of saying “you have to stop betting on potential Karina and finally focus on you!” Two posts ago I mentioned this old school friend I reconnected with, well thi gs were fine and flirty up until about three days ago when he said he was goin to stop by on his way from work in the morning to see me as I left for my job (he works overnights) and I was so excited I said sure. Comes the day and he’s a no show, I of course right away text him and call him out and say all men are full of shit. He says I have no class for cursing in the mornings and if that is what he’s to expect initially, it’s better to cut it now before more damage occurs. I clearly admit I was a bit too harsh, but to get dismissed like that over petty shit? I realized I’m not the ony one with issues! So yes Nat…I’ve been rejected once again even after apologizing for my behavior ( but I didn’t apologized for who I am) and it’s time for me to move on again solo. There’s a saying in the Caribbean that says “it’s better to be alone than in bad company,” and I totally agree!
I have a boyfriend of one year, in the beginning we were seeing each other 3 x a week, he would drive me home from work, call every day, text everyday and made sure we were in touch every day and spends time with me just talking. He was very kind, attentive, concerned and wanted to know all about me…I fell for him. Later on he started to change, I would see him twice a week, then once a week then it became less and less and for the past month I only saw him once. He called me only once in the past two weeks. He’d text me once or twice maybe every other day. I asked him, why the change, he said because he is now busy – with work, sports (bowling, basketball, golf). I also noticed that he spends a lot of time with his friends and family (brother, cousins, etc) but cannot seem to fit me in his schedule anymore. I asked him until when will he be busy, can he give me a tentative date on when I will see him again, like after a week, another month, 2 months? Will it always be like this now and will I be seeing more of him in the future? He gave me a whole list of reasons why he is busy and said he cannot commit on a time when I can see him again.
I was so confused with his behavior, I couldn’t focus on work, lost weight, can’t eat, can’t sleep, depressed most of the time. It is so fortunate I found this site and gave me important insights and helped me understand. I always thought it was me, that I wasn’t good enough, not lovable enough, maybe I was doing something wrong, being needy, etc. And so for 1 week I decided to stop answering his pitiful texts and suddenly last Thursday (after one month of not seeing him) he texted, “Can I see you tomorrow?” What??? I don’t understand, so he suddenly has time now?
I told him I cannot see him and texted him one last time, “From your behavior this past month, I figured that you are now too busy to have a relationship with me. Please don’t bother me again.” He texted back, “Sorry, I don’t mean to act this way.” I have not texted him back after that. It has been 4 days. That was also his last text.
I am just so confused. Does this mean he doesn’t want me anymore, does he want out but cannot tell me straight to my face? If he tries to contact me again, do I give him another chance? Help please…
ConfusedGal, there’s nothing to be confused about here. You know you’ve got problems when instead of your relationship progressing, it starts to regress, goes in fits and starts, or comes to a halt. How can you be going out with someone for a year and they have watered down how much you see them? Now you may feel flattered by him coming back, but here’s the kicker – because you put up with him pulling this shite for the past few months, he’s *surprised* that you stood up for yourself and now feels out of control and in turn equates this with suddenly desiring you and the relationship. Give it a few days or weeks, and he’ll be back to his old tricks. He has been doing the slow fade on you. He has literally eased himself out of your life, starting by putting his arse out the door, then a leg, then two legs and now he’s hovering in the doorway again. I mean what’s this guy trying to say? That you can’t have a relationship *and* see your friends and family? Don’t undignify yourself by trying to chase up your boyfriend like you’re a salesperson trying to get a slot to pitch with the sales director. The fact that you can’t work, have lost weight, are not eating, sleeping, and are depressed – you’d better bounce this man’s ass before you go into any further decline. Your body and your life are saying “Can’t you see that this guy ain’t shit? Can’t you see that he’s disrespecting you?” He’s just not that special. How dare he treat you this way!
Hi everyone,
@Confusedgal. Natalie is telling you the truth. At the beginning of this year I started dating someone from my circle of friends. First few months he saw me almost everyday, was excited about being with me, went on trips together, saw each other every weekend,etc. Almost six months in I started to notice a change. I also noticed that he never referred to me as his gf. Well, to make the story short, he told me he wasn’t looking for anything serious. He never wanted to get married, have kids or have a long term relationship. Mind you, this was the guy who had been chasing me for 3 months straight, couldn’t get enough of me, kept asking me if I didn’t like him when I kept my distance, etc. He told me he was afraid of commitment, and would work on his issues, but for the next 2 months things never got better, only worse (friends were in town and never introduced me to them, freaked out about future plans, could go weekends without calling or seeing me if I didn’t call). Well, after he came from another business trip, I dumped him. Should have seen the look on his face. He really wasn’t expecting that.
Confusedgal, do the same. Don’t stay. He’s doing the slow fade. He’s not breaking with you because he wants to keep you around, but under his terms. That’s what I noticed with the guy I was seeing. Sure, he liked me, enjoyed my company, all the benefits of being a gf without the label. Things would have kept up until he found someone else or got tired. Nobody deserves to be second best.
NML, thank you so much for helping me see him for who he really is. It hurts to realize that a person you care for deeply and have invested your emotions to does not care for you the same way anymore. It’s just so hard for me to face that fact when I’m so into the guy. Sigh! I have been reading sites such as “how to get your boyfriend to be more affectionate, spend more time with you, etc.” Never worked. Thank you for this site. It helped me wake up to reality.
Yes, this is the first time I have ever stood up for myself. I guess it’s about time! The relationship was always on his terms. I was always the one trying to be nice, understanding and by doing so hoped that he’d pay more attention to my feelings, spend more time with me, call me more and hoped that thing would be better. Well, I gave it one year so I guess his time is up. No more excuses for him.
Thank you so much. I needed the go signal that I made the right decision and I’m determined to stick to it.
Jennyana, thank you. It’s a big help to know that there are people like you and NML who care enough to give advice. It is a comfort to know that someone have been through the same experience. What you wrote is hard to accept, but is the reality. Slow fade.. I never thought of my relationship that way. But it makes so much sense now. I always thought I was doing something wrong, I guess some guys are actually like this… But why would they invest so much time and energy pursuing then after a few months decide that they don’t like you as much. And when they come to the decision, why don’t they tell you right out and instead of doing the “slow fade” which is so much more hurtful and a waste of time. Why? So he can keep you around… for what?.. for his convenience? That is so selfish! Sorry, he’s not that lucky or important or deserving of such treatment. I guess some questions will never be answered and not even worth thinking about at this point!
Confusedgal you did the right thing.
Who knows why men do the things they do? They are very different from us.
It has NOTHING to do with you, and EVERYTHING to do with him. Release him back into the wild and you will find someone much better suited for you. Go no contact with this ass.
Confused,
They keep you around to have their egos massaged. I think the important question is: Why do we stick around for people who treat us like garbage???
We cannot control others, but we can control ourselves.
Allison,
men don’t keep women around. Women choose to stick around waiting for Mr Stupid to get over his shitty behaviour. It’s NOT what they are doing to us but what we allow them to do to us.
In order to get away from the energy sapping bullshit of a non relationship I was in I decided NOT to focus on him and his bull, but on myself and why the hell I put up with it. I can’t change him, but I sure can stop being an asshole myself and start to take care and love myself!
Bella,
Absolutely right!
Ugh, I’m working on this one: a colleague I wasn’t in a relationship with, or dating, but we made out a couple of times, and I really liked him, and then he started to act like an ass, so I cut off contact.
But I would like to maintain contact with my colleagues, and I’m pretty sure, highly social person that he is, he’ll always be with them at gatherings. And how do I deal with lingering feelings? I don’t want to be upset when he hits on other women. I want to press my own reset button and just not like him and not be interested in him and not think about what a great kisser he is and how very very much I wanted to sleep with him (though I didn’t, because I knew I would end up feeling miserable if I did).
Maybe that will come with time.
I’ve scoured everything for this, someone please help. I’ve been with my MM 3 years. 3 weeks ago he admitted he could no longer promise to leave. That he couldn’t wreck his family. I left him.
I still wanted to “win” and seduced him last Friday. He now says he can’t do this “lying and cheating” anymore. That it’s too much. Only if we are away for work is it “Okay”. He texts me daily that he loves me, still kisses, hugs, holds hands with me, wants to meet for breakfast and dinner. Says he “kisses me GN every night before bed”. What is this?
I’m no longer waiting. I’m taking his love because it feels good, but all my friends know I’m single. I’ve put myself back out there in the biggest way. I’m open to a real relationship, and then the MM situation will stop completely because I can’t do this “thing” he’s doing. I mean, does he truly love me? How can it just be that I’m the “Other Woman” if there isn’t any sex, just a “relationship” of sorts? One where I’m still looking for a real man, actively, while he obviously is now taking my crumbs???
Confused, you know you’ve got problems when your relationship requires a complicated description and explanation and it’s even confusing when written down… Short answer: He’s married. Medium answer: He’s a married man which means he’s cheating which means he’s lying and that you’re also not supposed to be with him. Longer answer:
Confused, I want you to watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxBfukKmATo, pretend Whoopi is me, and replaced ‘Molly’ with ‘Confused’ or whatever your name is.
If you think you can sex away a man from his marriage, you may as well give up now and save yourself the prancing about in lingerie, the grinding and the BJs or whatever it is you’re doing. Do not degrade yourself by reducing yourself to the Woman That Has An Irresistable Vagina because that’s what you’re doing. Relationships take more than sex. There are men that cheat even though they get laid every day by their wives, so give it up.
This man is a tool. “Oh boo hoo hoo. I can’t do this lying and cheating anymore…Unless we’re away on a work trip and then I’m all over you like a rash.” That’s just idiotic. This is a marriage, not what goes on tour stays on tour. This man doesn’t love you. This isn’t what love even remotely looks like and he’s stringing you along, especially because you won’t take the hint. Taking his love? What love? A text is just a text and in this context, it’s a crumb, and a lazy one at that. And I’m sorry, but it’s time to wake yourself up. When exactly were you putting yourself out there? If you seduced this man last Friday, this means it’s been *three* days. How about you take some time out to address why 1) you’re with a married man, 2) you are seducing a married man after he told you he wasn’t going to leave and wreck his family, 3) you’re so happy with crumbs, 4) why you lead with sex and are in fact now questioning why he’s not sleeping with you, and 5) why you can’t seem to take some time out to sort yourself out? Leave other guys alone – I feel sorry for them with you playing with them while you continue a crumb relationship with a married man. You wouldn’t like to be treated in the same way!
But let’s go back to the short answer: He’s married. This means it’s time for you to STEP.
To Confused with Respect:
Picture yourself a Wife married to a man you Love and Adore. Now picture this scenario with a woman outside the marriage trying to steal your husband and destroy your marriage and life.
Go NO CONTACT immediately, get professional counselling and antidepressants if necessary – but DO the right thing. Married Men are Off Limits, and as you are experiencing…. damaging YOU.
“I’ve put myself back out there in the biggest way. I’m open to a real relationship, and then the MM situation will stop completely.”
I think this must be a really difficult situation and you must be hurt, but you must know that you deserve a lot better than this. It’s impossible to put yourself out there if you’re with a MM and you aren’t open to a real relationship when you’re with him. I don’t think you can find a great guy and then give up the MM, you need to give up the MM and then find a great guy who is all yours.
Confused
He dumps you and you treat him to a sexual smorgasbord. That’s not winning. To compete with another woman for a man’s attention is one of the lowest points a woman can reach.
It’s not too late to retrieve the situation. NC him, have nothing more to do with him and his worthless texts. Every single woman who comments here has had those texts.
This isn’t over yet – in my experience of the EU, the half-assed breakup is when the “fun” really starts. You’ve sent the message loud and clear “No matter how badly you treat me, I’m here for you”. Turn it round and take control of your life, and that doesn’t include waiting for another man to come and rescue you. I can 95% guarantee that any such man is either going to be the patsy you walk all over or, more likely, ANOTHER EU/ AC or even MM. We make bad choices in men when our self-esteem is as shattered as yours is.
As for HIM accepting your crumbs? You’ve got that completely wrong. He has his wife at home and he has you on the side doting on him (whether or not you’re shagging). In what way is he the loser and you the winner?
You’re at the roulette table and you’re down to your last chip. House always wins. Time to get your coat and leave.
Thank you, Natalie. for the tough love.
I guess I thought since he’s NOT sneaking about having sex with me anymore, and it’s all just professed love, verbal, and physical only as far as kissing, holding, touching, telling me how beautiful I am, how much he loves me etc, that it was me doing the taking.
The out of town comment, although I know how it seems, it is not really a reality. we used to go out of town quite a bit. He would always take me with him, well, none is planned for 2012 at this juncture, so I’m just letting him treat me as a GF not a shag, which is strange, and I wonder just how it is he can do it? How it is he can text me “I love you, true”, everynight. Hold me and kiss me and take me to dinner and hold my hand and think that it’s somehow NOT cheating, NOT lying. what is it in his head that thinks only sex is cheating and not being in love with someone else?
You are right though. I will definately take your advice. I definately needed to hear it! THANK YOU!
Confused, I tell you this as someone who was called a ‘girlfriend’ by someone who already *had* a girlfriend plus I got all those texts, the working away and yada yada.
You cannot be a girlfriend to someone who is attached. That’s just a form of control and mind fuckery. He has a wife – calling you his girlfriend is an oxymoron situ. Can you call him your boyfriend, be out in the open, progress the relationship? No. Don’t allow yourself to be strung along.
I sucked it and saw and am unsure if this is rejection?? MM and I were emailing again. He mentioned he thought it was ironic that I brought up his wife like she’s some major character in his life. He said most days he doesn’t know where she is and just goes on about his day. He asked to hang out sometime and threw out a vague day of the week that might be. I had to go out of town for a few days to take care of some medical issues. I didn’t mention this to him as I did not feel he needed the personal information about me. I was gone for several days and no access to internet or anything. Before hand I told him twice to call in an email. He likes to manage “this” in emails and occasional text.
While I was gone he had emailed me saying he’d call me on a Friday night. I knew this because Friday night he texts me (I’m in another state, mind you, at a hotel) asking if I was busy. Previously I told him I’d rather him call and that I’m not much of a texter. He said he was with a friend at his uncle’s house and wanted to know how late I’d be up. At this point I did not know he said he’d call since I had not read any emails in days (no internet access). So he’s texting me telling me he’s with his friend and was “supposed to have gone home at 2 and is at the whims of his hospitalities” that afternoon (it was 8pm by this time). Finally, I was flustered and text him back saying “well we can see that it was not on your list of priorities to call”. He sent me two more texts and finally said he’d have to call me another day. I said eff it to myself and never said a word back. Two days later when I got home to read email, i saw where he said we could possibly hang out Friday night and that he would call. It felt like he stuck a knife in my chest. And I felt like an idiot. He said he enjoys my company (which includes lengthy emails about everything and nothing and him asking to hang out) and asked why would I care why he talks to me. Even though I was not even in the same state, the principle is that he said he would call (he wound up texting and telling me why he could not call) and that we could hang out. I felt rejected. I know it’s all about him. It’s His Show. Ugh. So back on NC again. Day 1.
Any man that is in a relationship (married, engaged, living together) is really off limits. No matter WHAT they say.
That should be the number one reason to walk away. Oh, you’re married?/live with your ex-wife you reconciled with/engaged/in a longterm relationship? Ok goodbye.
When the man is FREE and living ALONE (or with family/roommate) it’s fair game. He might not be available emotionally (and that might not be immediately apparent) but he is physically available. Then you take it slow, guard your heart and see where it goes. You take it S-L-O-W to ascertain whether he is emotionally open and available.
Seriously, why do you want that DRAMA to enter your life?
I’m not sure I’m in a place to give advice because I did something very wrong to myself. I will detail this later on the blog, perhaps.
But I will say that it seems like you must be very bored to get in a situation like this. Very.bored.
jupiter
ouch, but hits the mark
If we feel that our lives are enhanced by this nonsense it isn’t because the nonsense is valuable. It’s because we’ve allowed our lives to become empty. Fill it with better things – career, volunteer work, hobby, friends, family, good food, exercise, church, pets, hobby, art galleries, library, yoga, running, the countryside. anything but a bit of throwaway attention from someone else’s man!
coloro – no real harm done. NC him. I’ve been on this merry go round too, trying to get a half-interested man to call me. He doesn’t call you because he doesn’t want to. He persists in the emailing etc because that’s all he wants from you – some cyber kicks at his convenience. We’re way better than that.
grace,
That bit hurt about him not calling because he doesn’t want to. But I know it is true. It hurts because he meant more to me than I did him and any which way I tried to “make” him see me the way I saw him never worked. It feels like I’m not as interesting or as cool to have someone to flippin’ want to see me. But instead I get nothing but excuses and rejection. It’s like “ok, all I’m worth to you is emails and occasional texts and lies about saying you’ll see me then don’t??” During moments when I at least half halfheartedly think I’m actually a good and pretty cool person, this guy who I have been so taken with for so long can show me the total opposite. Feel like an ick pile.
Colororange, if anyone is making anyone feel rejected here, it’s you doing it to you. WHy are you corresponding with this married man? Based on all of the previous times, it’s like walking into oncoming traffic, getting run over and then doing the same thing again. Why would you suck it and see for a non relationship? You already sucked and saw before that when he revealed he had a wife he was probably planning to bump off and bury in the divorce cemetery in 6 months time. You’re being very self destructive and particularly after a period of gradual growth, it’s like you have hit something that you’d prefer to avoid. It’s like you think working on you or staying out of trouble is ‘too hard’ so you’d rather fanny away your time on Mr Slinky. Let’s be real – he’s not a calling kind of guy. He’s not even a single kind of guy. Also, if you’re gagging so much to pick use the phone, there has been nothing to stop you dialing his number… agh…and there you have it. You know that this is not supposed to go anywhere… Colorange, you’re in danger girl.
I’m sure this sounds ridiculous but I was afraid if I called him it made me look desperate somehow? That and I was afraid he’d either not answer or hang up on me. I’ve never felt comfortable calling men especially ones that show this kind of shoddy behavior. It has been rough. I really wanted something to come out of this though I don’t know how it would. I wanted to be special and all that jazz. But I noticed I was losing sleep and not eating when all this was going on. Either way it’s clear even if my head goes down the road of “but what if” that this is not good for me.
Hey Coloro,
Natalie and I were just talking about how many times she responded to my initial comments with “Runner, you are in danger girl”. As usual, Natalie was correct. For the first few months of my faux NC, I persisted in playing in traffic with the exMM, thinking that if he would just do X, it would mean Y. All the while, I was in denial as to the fact he was married no matter what he did or didn’t do. He was married. The exMM used to call me all the time, usually more than three times a day. I could mostly call him anytime and he would always pick up, except when he was with his wife of course. We were together usually four or five times a week. My point: It’s not really about him calling or how often you are together, it’s about the fact that he is married. So what if he called you on the hour everyday all day, he’d still be married, right? I totally get the “ick pile”. Hanging with a MM, hoping to be upgraded or hoping for a call is the ickeffing pile. Color, you are interesting. You are cool. You are a good person. It’s just that you may be trying to get love from an unlikely source? Based on my experience as a mistress for two years and then one year as a serious BR student, MM’s are highly unlikely sources for love, trust, care, and respect. I had to finally suck it up, put the focus on me (talk about an ick pile), and with the help of the BR community bounce him. I’m feeling a bit like an reformed smoker (next on my To Do List)…MM’s need to be kicked to the curb. MM’s can’t be your bf. That was the hardest thing for me to accept. MM’s are married and don’t deserve the first chance, let alone the 50th chance. Natalie’s comment: “You’re being very self destructive and particularly after a period of gradual growth, it’s like you have hit something that you’d prefer to avoid” really hit home for me. Every time I ran back into the danger zone, I was trying to avoid my ick. Finally, I had to face myself. Ick. It’s better now though and the world didn’t stop turning…I think.
Colourorange:
“MM and I were emailing again. He mentioned he thought it was ironic that I brought up his wife like she’s some major character in his life.”
What a lot of hee-haw. There’s nothing ironic about it: she is his WIFE.
MMs always try to make small of the fact that they have a wife in the hope that you will see your way to agreeing with this kind of bullshit – that his wife is a non-issue.
This situation, color, is a no-brainer and the whole ‘out-of-town texting story’ is neither here or there in the big scheme of things- fact is that he’s married. Full Stop.
But if you want he will use you as a distraction when it suits him. You already know what the deal is with MMs – you’re either in or you’re out – but there’s no point being “in” and then grumbling about the details of who didn’t phone who and who texted and who emailed and who didn’t. All that is merely symptomatic of the whole disease – it’s not the disease.
“Stop being curious about someone that you’ve been around for a hot minute that’s already showing their arse, or someone that’s already had their one shot (or even more) at disrespecting you.”
Curiosity killed the cat. It’s really that simple. 😐
Coming to this site daily has so saved my sanity over the last couple of months! I broke off with my EUM/rapidly developing AC shortly before stumbling onto BR. We met on a dating site – he pursued me, and he was a great guy – had been married 20 years, divorced now, had a couple of teenage kids he adored. He treated me like a princess. And he had this sexy English accent (yeah, I know – but I’m in Tennessee, LOL!)
And then after we’d been together over a month, I asked how long he’d been divorced – and he says, here’s where you’ll be scandalized – I’ve actually been separated since 2004 – but I’ll be divorced officially in Oct! (You see, he filed the paperwork as soon as he met me! RIGHT.) I should have bailed then. But he was soooo sweet and treated me just like a princess – no question he wanted to be long-term, “smitten,” he was. Until he started getting a little less great – didn’t call for a couple days. At the 2-month mark, we went out, and then he didn’t call for four days, including all weekend. I have a pretty fast trigger finger these days, one too many ACs, I guess. I knew it (“it” being the kind of relationship I want and feel I deserve) was over, so sent him a text saying, it’s pretty clear that you’ve lost interest, so I’m moving on. Had fun. 🙂 (Put that in just to be an ass.)
He called and left me a vm with the it’s-not-you-it’s-me and then texted, would be a shame if we didn’t stay friends – I deleted, didn’t respond, unfriended. Then I proceded to cry every day because I never heard from him again and I couldn’t believe he could forget me so quickly. Thank goodness for BR. It validated my NC decision and is getting my thinking straight again.
I’m still a little sad two months out, but this article makes me feel soooo much better. YEAH, I bounced his arse! This far out, I can see that, even though his profile says (he never took it down, btw) he looks like a cross between George Clooney/Jude Law, he’s pretty short, and a cross between Frodo, Bilbo, Merry, and Sam would be more accurate, especially with the accent and his weird little hands and feet…
Larissa be very thankful that it’s just two months. I know women who have been with men who have ‘just filed’ or it will be finalised in X months for anything from 1-15 years. When they finally left, these men were still separated….which means still married.
Larissa,
I made the mistake also…my EU/AC whom I worked with was separated after 26 years married, 3 grown up kids who he also adored. Presented himself as single to me (14 years his junior) and I wish I’d left after 2 months as he strung me along, told me he’d be divorced quickly although spend most weekends in his marital home with his wife although it was common knowledge they had decided to go their separate ways. Couldn’t understand why this upset me telling me it was me with the problem…on numerous occassions cancelled plans with me to run errands for his ex, dumped me over christmas so he could spend ‘family time’ and then got in touch afterwards to re start things again and I stupidly went back!!
Eventually (too long in my opinion) did I see him for what he was but it cost me a job I loved as I had to leave to get away from him…
6 Months later (this week) he tried to weedle his way back in but this time I was ready and a lot stronger and not willing to tolerate him…I like you am sad after a week of telling him what an egotistical clown he is but it’s draining.
Well done for nipping it in the bud as early:)
Lynsay
I never date a man if they are separated because they are still married. However, I dated and fell in love with a man who was just divorced.
I was his DIVORCE CLOWN. Term I made for the very first woman a guy dates after he is divorced. He will use the Divorce Clown to boost his ego, improve his mood, give him confidense, divert his attention from his problems, use her for sex….
Oh, Never Again. I will never be a Divorce Clown again!
Thanks for the response, Natalie. I can’t believe I stuck around after finding out he lied about being divorced. Guess I was still trying to get a return on my “investment.” *Cringe!*
Natalie – thanks so much for the response. I just can’t believe I stuck around after finding out he lied about being divorced. Guess I was stil trying to get some return on my “investment” *Cringe!*
I can’t help but wonder if some (or all) of your ex-ACs have come here or to your books to read about themselves and been completely humiliated, realizing what morons they are. Not that you give a rat’s ass about what they think anymore, but it thrills my soul how spectacularly you’ve had the last laugh at them!!
Lynsay – argh! What jerks! Onward, and never again!
Sorry for the multiple post, all…just figuring this thing out and still a little clueless in technology as in love. 🙂
Larissa, be grateful, that you lost ONLY two months of your life for this AC…I lost 3 years and 8 months!!! Trust me, it is even more harder to let it go, hope one day we will feel better:-) ALL the best x
Thanks, Happy! So sorry he wasted so much of your time! ASSCLOWN!!! (I get so much satisfaction from that silly word!) I’m sure it would have been much harder after 3+ years – hugs. No matter how long it takes, at least it’s good to finally get out of a toxic situation and move the hell on something better!
Hello everybody. Forgive my English. I’m from Greece and I don’t speak English very well. But I’ll try! I’m all alone in my apartment, searching for some help at the internet, hoping to feel better…I don’t know how to start. I was married for 7 years. We had been together for 17 years though. No children. And I’m 37… I thought he was the love of my life but he left me 2 years ago because “he wanted to live his life”…Apparently, without me. I was devastated but I managed to pick up my pieces and move on. I found a new job, redecorated my house and after a few months a close friend of mine introduced me to my last boyfriend. (Now an ex). At first I wasn’t very interested but I convinced myself to give me -and him- a chance. He is a teacher, good looking and we started a relationship. He has diabetes and even if he tries to control it, he often has hypocyglemia (under sweet blood). I stayed up many nights, awake, trying to help him. I didn’t mind at all because I loved him and I wanted to be there for him, in any way I could. I trully cared. But he was the kind of guys that disappear for days and then appears again all of a sudden teeling me that he wasn’t feeling well (most of the times because of his “disease”). When I did sth wrong or said sth wrong or complaining to him for not caring for me much or because we used to see each other mostly during the nights at my apartment, he “punished” me by disappearing or insulting me. When I was sweet and easy going, when I wasn’t pressuring hin in any way, he treated me better. But when I started complaining, he was really mean. Last year, I got pregnant. He told me that he wasn’t ready to be a father, so, I did an abortion. After that he broke up with me, telling me that thre was another woman in his life. I wanted to die. We had no contact for many months until I texted him to see how he was doing (I know, big mistake) and we got back together. We never discussed the abortion. Because of his “situation” he told me that he avoided being upset by anyone or anything. I thought things would be different this time but I was wrong. It was ok for the first 3 months and then he started the same old pattern. Coming to see me whenever he wanted, we did whatever he wanted, one night I called the ambulance because he had hypoglycemia and I couldn’t make him well. He never said “thank you for being there for me”. He hardly calls to hear my voice. He only texts. He’s making his house now. His parents bought him a nice apartment next to them and he decorates it. He says that he’s too busy to see me for a few days. I texted him many times the last couple of days but no response. I know I’m a doormat. But even though I know it, I have this hidden feeling inside of me that he’ll call me and we’ll be ok. I’m a lost case, guys and gals. I don’t know what to do to regain my self esteem. He disappeared again and I’m left behind. A little help would be appreciated…
Alice
You’re not the first woman who has left a long-term relationship/marriage and then ended up feeling trapped in a bad relationship. This happens when you don’t feel sure of yourself. So, forgive yourself for making a mistake. Unfortunately, you cannot continue in this mistake and hope it will get better because it won’t. These relationships only get worse and worse. Even though you’re in Greece, the language of ACs is universal – the texting, the ignoring you, the ingratitude, the take and no give. Your country is in a debt crisis. Your relationship with this man is putting YOU in a crisis. At least you can end the relationship. I know it’s really hard, but it’s the only way. He is mistreating you and you have to stop it.
You don’t even have to tell him it’s over. He doesn’t deserve it. But for the sake of clarity you may want to text him (since that’s what he prefers) that this is not working for you and you don’t want any more contact.
Think about it, take some time (not too long!) to commit to your decision and finish it.
Grace,
I really don’t know how to thank you for taking the time to reply to my message. I know you’re right. I know that he’s mistreating me, I KNOW all that. Believe me. So, why is this so difficult to put this man out of my life for good? It’s almost like I want to be in pain. It’s crazy. During the day it’s not so bad because I go to work and deal with many issues and people but at nights…well, it’s so hard. I feel lonely and empty inside. I can’t sleep well. A part of me is angry and wants revenge but I know he doesn’t deserve it, not even this. As for texting him to tell him that I want no contact any more, well, I just can’t do it. I’ve done this many times before and I didn’t stick to my decision. I always came back and initiate contact with him first so, I am a joke to his eyes. He won’t believe me. Grace, I’ve made so many mistakes that are countless. And why should I tell him that I don’t want a relationship, anyway? He disappeared again and he may never shows up again. Maybe he ended it and just forgot to inform me!!! Probably he’ll never come again. OMG, I’m hopeless. But there is one thing I can assure you of; that I’m starting to love and protect myself. Slowly. Step by step. But I’m starting to think the right way. I wish my heart could follow that as well…
Alice, I understand you so well, I am in the same situation. We have even the same excuses from ACs – decoration of the house etc, God they are so similar, it is like dating the same man!
NC is only one option for all of us. I never contact AC first , this is my Rule, and he always comes running…BUT when he get his way, he disappears!
Please, do not call him, just disappear…I will do exactly the same, no more responses to AC texts and calls. FINISH.
Happy soul,
OK, it’s a deal! No more calls, no more texts! I promise. And this time there are no excuses. I’ll stick to my decision. It’s sad though. How things end with people you once were so close with. Now he forgot all about me. I must do the same. Life can be really beautiful and I need to be “alive” again. I forgot how it is to feel joy in a relationship. But we mustn’t give up. I must start loving myself and maybe love will found me, who knows? I wish you the best…
Alice,
there is nothing else for you to do other than drop this man completely and start to take care of yourself properly. There is no other answer for you. Get him out of your life. He is a selfish, using man who does not love you, but the bigger problem is that you do not love you; if you did love you this man would have been history long ago. You will not be able to see this clearly until you get rid of him; you will not be able to help yourself until you get rid of him. There is plenty of good advice for you here in Natalie’s articles- read them, read them and read them again. Take care of you.
Thank you fearless. So much. Of course you’ re right. Finding this site the last few weeks was almost like a gift from God. Natalie speaks so “right to the point” that I can sometimes find myself smiling while I read these posts and recognizing in them both myself and my ex. I wish all the girls that meet ACs in their lives to find the courage and strength to dump them as fast as they can and find their sanity and themselves again…I wish I’d find myself again…
I dated a guy and thought mistakenly we could be friends, He is a destrespectful man. Today he texts me for a chat and I tell him that I am thinking about one of my girlfriends who I met over the weekend whose husband left her after 25 years and she is devastated……….he came back with
“Maybe he left her because she didn’t put out regularly enough and was a nag”
That single comment has been the moment that I have thought I have absolutely nothing in common with this man. He is a total idiot. Thank goodness he is not in my life!
Bella
It’s always a bit of a shocker when you realise the man you had on a pedestal and almost worshipped is just a dickhead.
Oh well, it’s kind of hilarious! I can laugh about it now.
To regain your own balance (body/heart/mind/spirit) is most important after brake-up. Concentrate on who you are (feel and give love and respect for yourself) and know your values (how you seeing your equal ), you not live forever so value your time and energy and put it in to people and ‘staff’ that empower your life and wellbeing. You can’t change others but you can be the master of yourself. Believe that you have will and power to transform all that stand on the way of your happiness. Blessed be…
Bella- I LOATHE when they pull that line. What BS.
My ex AC rejected me time and time again. Finally had enough and blew him off about 4 months ago. Quite a surprise when I left work today and found a note on my car saying he saw me a couple of weeks ago at a local store (didn’t see him) and said I could have said hello. Then he said “friends??”. I say “you’ve got to be kidding”. Would have contacted him immediately if I never found this Baggage Reclaim. Thank you Natalie!!
I started dating a guy two months ago who I met on a dating site. I have been hurt a lot in the past by an ex who was EUM but have been working hard to get over any issues caused by this. I thought this guy was great and thought that this could possibly go somewhere. He treated me like an angel and was very sweet. Needless to say I have had some difficulty adjusting to this based on years of neglect from my ex, but all in all things were going really well. Then we had our first fight (I thought it was minor) and he breaks up with me the next day! He was very pragmatic and matter of fact about it and just told me he didn’t see it working out in the future due to our different personalities. He describes himself as cold and not being very emotional – but honestly I haven’t seen these traits in him until he pulled the rug out from under me. He stated that he didn’t think someone like me would be happy with him as I am emotional and he thinks he is not. Because of this he wants to avoid problems later and just jump ship now because that would be easier for him than breaking up with me in a couple of months. I am just really confused by his reaction. He could be right about some of the things he says but I find it very strange that he just went straight to breaking up. We had gotten along amazingly for the entire two months; why base a break up on one fight? I really think that this is what he is doing. I am also worried because I have told him about my past a bit and I am worried that maybe this played into it. i.e. him thinking I was damaged goods, not over my ex, etc…
In any case, I asked him to give me a second chance because of all of this and he is supposed to call me tonight to talk. Does anyone have any advice for me? I normally wouldn’t do this but I really like him and thought that things could work. I am just so confused by his reaction as it doesn’t make sense to me based on how things were proceeding before the arguement 🙁 I am so sad, I thought we had something really good going on.
I didn’t mention this in my earlier post but he also has some baggage (don’t we all). He has had women scream at him, hit him, etc…I am not like this at all but he seems to be afraid that I will turn this way or something like that. I am an emotional girl but I am not nasty in any way. I was just hurt when we were arguing and probably said some things that I shouldn’t have. i.e. asking him if he wanted to break up with me. This seems to have freaked him out but I can’t take it back now! I don’t know what to do. How do you prove to a person that you are not a certain way (other than them sticking around and giving you a chance). I think he is jumping to conclusions here and just trying to escape based on past relationships.
Hi Violet,
Sorry to hear this happened to you. I’d advise you to remember how hurt and confused you are as you consider trying to get him back; why would you want to go back to someone who dumps you so suddenly? How could you be sure you wouldn’t be walking on eggshells, afraid to do whatever it is that set him off? If you went back to him you might find yourself ‘under his thumb,’ more controlled than you expected, because you worry that he ‘scares’ easily.
Who initiated the fight? Are you sure he didn’t just pick a fight to have a reason to break up?
Also, I don’t like that it sounds that he put it on you: you wouldn’t be happy and so on. Doesn’t sound as though he took responsibility for his own feelings and owned that he is the one who wants out enough to bail.
In any case I think Natalie’s dictum still stands. He has rejected you in a big way and that only after two months. He has shown you what he is capable of – seeming like all is good and then suddenly pulling out the rug. Be happy you found out after only two months, lick your wounds, and move on.
Oh, and I don’t know what the others will say, but I have tried, in all my interactions since the one that dragged out for six years, never to bring up ‘breaking up’ in any way, no matter how bad the argument, during an argument. I only ever want to start THAT conversation calmly, when I seriously want to have a break up conversation. It’s way too important a consideration to throw around in the heat of being upset.
Violet:
“He has had women scream at him, hit him, etc…I am not like this at all but he seems to be afraid that I will turn this way”
He is afraid HE will make you turn this way as he did those other women – and you will! he knows that cos he knows the effect he has once his honeymoon chasing period is over. He’s caught you; his mission is accomplished, now its just shit all the way. They were screaming at him cos he’s cold and unemotional and non-communicative and dishing up Houdini acts after his initial big shows of affection – please don’t be fooled that the problem was with these other women – the problem is with *him*. It’s a warning. You’d do well to heed it.
And you shouldn’t be thinking about how to prove anything to him – all you’ll end up proving is that you’re the doormat woman who will take his EU shit and not scream at him or lash out. Believe me, you will want to!
Soon after I met my ex EUM he told me how how a previous g/friend punched him in the face and called him an arsehole – I asked him why she did that. He said “because I wouldn’t communicate with her” (and he was the injured party! Pfft. How could she say that to me! Pfft. He seemed more aghast at being called an arsehole than getting a slap on the chops! She probably still doesn’t know just how right she was!)
That was one of my first siren blaring warning signs, which I ignored. I didn’t get it at the time, not really, though I sensed very much the problem was him and not the g/friend who took a swing at him. I thought I’d be the exception. I was. I never called him an arsehole or punched him in the face (so I “proved” I was different! pah.) – but let me tell you, not taking a swing for him took all the self-restraint I could muster cos I sure did feel like it about five million times. I did scream at him more than once. But know what, Violet? I didn’t get any prizes for being the girl who didn’t take a swing at him for his EU mind-bending f*ckery – I got crap and crap and some more crap – that’s the prize here you want to win, make no mistake about it (what you’re getting now is just an appetizer – you think you’re confused? You WILL be!)
Mine was a “wonderful” boyfriend for about the first two months – until he disappeared (stupidly I fought to get him back); and that’s all yours is doing – same thing – but he at least is telling you why in plain English: cold and unemotional. Believe him!
Violet,
on more thing I thought of and want to say:
You “think he is jumping to conclusions here and just trying to escape based on past relationships.”
He is not jumping to any conclusions about you! He just knows what *he* is like. It has nothing to do with you or anything you did or said.
You are right on one count: He IS just trying to escape!
But not for the reason you think (the argument was at best convenient for him if not staged by him for the very purpose of creating an excuse to escape) He is escaping purely because that is what they do – they chase and run, chase and run, chase and run… ad infinitum.
Enough from me on this – but Violet, do yourself a favour and flush him.
Thanks Magnolia & Fearless, unfortunately I found out the truth about this guy the hard way though.
He didn’t call me that night like he was supposed to. I wanted closure and so I stupidly headed over to his place to see if he would talk to me, I didn’t expect things to work out but I just wanted an answer. I was surprised that he even answered the door, and when he did he invited me in. We sat and talked in his kitchen for hours about things. Stupidly I took this all as signs of encouragement and ended up sleeping with him. My fault I know as I initiated it; but I never would have if I thought things weren’t going to work out. He didn’t even let me stay the night and I ended up driving home at 4am by myself. What an ass.
The whole time he was sending me mixed messages. He initially said that his mind hadn’t changed and that he thought we were incompatible and thus shouldn’t be together. But he also said he was flattered that I had come by and that he was now confused about his feelings because of this, he told me he needed a few more days to think. He told me about some of this problems and he is definitely EUM. That should have scared me off but for some reason I thought that since this guy had some self awareness that it was workable. He lead me to believe that the problem was with him and not me – so to speak. I found this comforting because I have spent a lot of time beating myself up for not doing this or that right.
The next day we spoke as planned but only because I called him. He bluntly told me that it was still not going to work. I questioned him as I was still so bloody confused and he got a little angry with me. He then blamed it on me being too pushy and not listening to him and what he needed i.e. space. This is not what he had said the night before at all. It was shocking. He had a completely different perception of events that took place at his house. He said that something had just changed for him when we had the fight this week and that he wasn’t attracted to me anymore basically because I am not the type of person he could see things working out with.
I am just so hurt. I know a lot of this is my own stupid fault but I can’t take it back. I feel embarrassed and ashamed of my behaviour. I shouldn’t have given this guy the opportunity to reject me and string me along. Maybe I should count myself lucky that I have never had a guy use me for sex before when I cared about them so much (I am 32). I even baked the AC some cookies the next day and left them in his mailbox! He just seemed annoyed if anything that I was so hard to get rid of. I sound so stupid here but trust me I am not, I have been through a lot with a previous EUM and had judged this guy to be trustworthy and worth my time – and then it just flipped. That freaks me out the most. I can handle a break up but having someone make you doubt yourself and how you handled yourself is the worst. He made me feel like an idiot.
I was thinking of going into therapy for a little while before dating again now as I am sick of having the wind knocked out of me by men. I don’t know what it is about me, I had only dated one EUM before. I have had healthy relationships in the past. I am pretty, smart, and kind. I have a good job as a psych nurse and own my own home and car; I just don’t know why I keep attracting men who want to treat me like dirt and walk away without hearing so much as a complaint from me! It seems like a lot of women have to deal with this BS now…
Oh Violet! So many of us have been there. It is no fun feeling as though you have put in the effort to go to his place just to end up used again. But I think you do see that this last episode wouldn’t have happened had you not gone over there. Chalk it up to learning.
I might be trying not to drink but if someone trying to gain my favour drives over to my house and offers me 20-yr-old scotch I might make noise about rethinking my abstinence, and might take a glassful and then ask that the person take their bottle with them and go. It wouldn’t be the sweetest thing, but it’s not like I went out looking for the scotch: it showed up at my doorstep!
I just wouldn’t interpret a guy taking what was offered, or even hemming and hawing about his feelings when it looked like you might want to spend the night, as any indication that he was promising a relationship or enthusiastic about one. I say this as someone who has shown up more than once on more than one dude’s doorstep in the middle of the night, only to have the dude take whatever he could get from that interaction without promising anything.
Hope you find the motivation to break it off and go NC!
Violet
Hmm, I know things are desperate when the commentator starts talking about how pretty, attractive, successful, loving etc they are. You’re clutching at straws. I have NO DOUBT that you are all these things but they won’t guarantee you a good relationship or stop ACs from treating you like dirt. These attributes will not turn him into a proper boyfriend. It takes more than good looks and kindness to do that. You don’t have that power. Cheryl Cole didn’t have it, Marilyn Monroe didn’t have it. Jennifer Aniston didn’t have it. You’re in good company. There’s no shame in making a mistake so don’t beat yourself up.
Anyway, that may be too much philosophizing in this current dire situation. You know what I’m going to say. Ignore, ignore, ignore. When someone has humiliated you, do not go back for more. He has told you pointblanck that he wants you to leave him alone. Honestly, some of the women here have almost begged to be told the stark truth. You ignore it at your peril. Muster what is left of your dignity and don’t give him one more second of your precious life.
You are both so right, and I have thought about all of those things. Your thoughts were not too philosophical Grace, they were actually kind and helpful.
I have just been kicking myself that I let this guy do this to me and that I actually participated in it! I don’t know why I thought I could convince someone to keep me when they were rejecting me. Keep in mind here though that maybe four days ago we were dating and I was staying at this place about half of the week. I showed one sign of neediness and he was done with me. It was just brutal, and I honestly don’t understand as he was so kind to me before.
I guess that’s why I have been clutching at straws: I just don’t understand his actions. They are not in line with who I had known him to be (although only knowing him briefly). Maybe I am just projecting my emotions onto him because I just can’t wrap my mind around how you could be into someone so much one day and then done with them the next.
It is completely over though and that is for sure…although not on my terms. I do hate the fact that he saw me in the end as this weak, desperate person vying for his affection. I know I am better than that but I was just so damn confused! From dealing with EUMs in the past I know it is just best to move on and forget about ever trying to figure them out; it is an exercise in futility. But much like the other women on here I am used to men never telling me the truth and sticking around for years and years in limbo. This just totally mind f****d me. I will try hard to stop beating myself up over it, might take a while though.
Ahhh … Snap!
I’v just last night gone NC with the guy i’v been seeing, who had a girlfriend and was going to leave her “soon” of course… hmm… i told him i couldnt stand it no longer and i feel like shite all the time, and he was all “oh its just bad timing” and all that BS! so i’ve just said i understood and im not speaking to him again, its cutting me up =( i’ve already gave him ample shots and he hasnt done a single thing about it, time to bounce it would seem, i hope i can get through this 🙁
x