Yesterday I wrote a post on the subject of ‘why doesn’t he envision a committed relationship with me?’ which tackles the part of the issue that you can tackle – you. Towards the end of the post I highlighted how if someone doesn’t want commitment, you could be the most perfect person on earth and it won’t make a difference. This is particularly true of habitually emotionally unavailable people and assclowns.
My post yesterday was about healthy, positive commitment where you are with someone who genuinely has the potential to commit and where you are not being personally secure, what it is that can send out the wrong messages. I know because I have been that person.
What that post wasn’t about was emotionally unavailable men or assclowns, which although it might seem that they fill up the planet – they don’t.
There are people who potentially because of prior experiences that they have had in a relationship find themselves not being so personally secure and even though they are in a relatively healthy relationship, they end up doing things that are counterproductive. Just as much as I hear from men and women who are involved with emotionally unavailable people and assclowns, I equally hear from people who aren’t or who may not be and they want help. Just like when I’ve written about dating, or starting new relationships, knowing when to work at your relationship, and understanding the questions that you need to be able to answer for yourself, I can write about healthy relationships or where people are doing stuff that is counterproductive to their success!
With that in mind, I wanted to specifically address why a Mr (or Miss) Unavailable or an assclown doesn’t see a committed relationship, which is entirely different to someone with relatively healthy relationship habits that is genuinely looking to seek commitment.
The reason why Mr Unavailables and assclowns don’t see a committed relationship with you is because they don’t see a committed relationship with anyone or at least not the type of commitment that you’re looking for – healthy, positive commitment.
Obviously if you have unhealthy ideas about commitment, you’ll meet your match with these guys, but that’s a different matter!
Mr Unavailables cannot commit to an outcome.
They can’t commit to being with you and they can’t commit to not being with you so they they flip flap around you, messing up your life, getting an ego stroke, shag, a shoulder to lean on and anything else they can get while they’re at it. All the while, they have no genuine intention of committing and in fact look for every excuse under the sun to avoid commitment.
They maintain the Status Quo. If you imagine your ‘relationship’ with them on a scale of 1-10, they like to keep it at 5. If things get dramatic and take it below 5, they’ll start blowing hot to get it back to controllable levels. If they blow smoke up your bum and make promises they can’t keep, taking the relationship too far above 5 into 7,8,9, they’ll withdraw on you and start running the cold or lukewarm tap.
Blowing hot and cold is a fundamental part of their modus operandi and they use it to manage the relationship on their terms and keep things under their control. This is also how your expectations get managed down and you become receptive to a watered down version of commitment.
They are a walking contradiction. Their words and actions do not match which means at a basic level, they cannot commit to the words that come out of their mouth and they cannot commit to following through and delivering. This is a basic example of their inability to commit to basic requirements for living with integrity never mind a relationship! They’re also very disconnected from their actions so even though they may recognise that on some level that they’re a pain in the backside, they actually often think they’re a great catch with no problems – it’s everyone else.
They use sex as a weapon. While you may think that they’re showing how much they feel for you, sex is just something that is used to disarm you and create an illusion of a connection between you both which makes it easier for them to dip in and out of your life, blow hot and cold, and get a shag, an ego stroke, and a shoulder to lean on.
They keep a foothold in your life. Mr Unavailable is so shady on the commitment front that even when you tell him to beat it, he can’t even let things be. He’s sniffing around, poking around in your business and basically lining you up to default back to you on lesser terms than you were on when you were originally involved with him.
They use ‘timing’ to manipulate you. It’s not the right time, they make out they’ll be better than they are ‘one’ day, and they blame poor timing so that they can avoid having difficult conversations with you. Let me be clear – it is never going to be the right time for a committed relationship.
They’re seeking unattainable perfection. What easier way to let yourself off the hook by having unrealistic expectations. Mr Unavailables tell themselves that they just haven’t met the right woman yet and just like when we as women, have unrealistic expectations that we place on partners that don’t get met, men do too. They’re committed to an illusion. The cheeky gits will even test you out, chase you about sleeping with them and then mark you down when you.
They only thinks of themselves and do things on their terms. Committed relationships require two people with both of their feet in working together for the greater good of the relationship with mutual love, care, trust, and respect. There is only room for him, his ego, his needs and wants – he cannot empathise and you need empathy in a committed relationship.
Mr Unavailable is afraid of committing to you but also afraid of not committing to you in equal measures.
This means that he gives himself license to have his cake and eat it too. He has danced this dance many times – same problems, different woman and he has become skilled at ducking out when things get too intense and he’s also got very skilled at saying and doing what’s needed in times of tension and then quietly and passive aggressively backing out on whatever he has promised. Some are upfront about their lack of commitment and others just have not connected the dots of their behaviour and seen how commitment resistant it is.
Why doesn’t Mr Unavailable see a committed relationship with you?
Because he doesn’t see a committed relationship with anybody. If he does, it is often short lived and based on a fantasy. When he has to deliver on it, he starts doing stuff to undermine the commitment he’s supposed to have made. If you are involved with a Mr Unavailable and don’t run from the hills from his flip flapping ways, he will pick up on this fact and take it as a signal that you cannot be that interested in commitment.
Emotionally unavailable and commitment resistant attracts emotionally unavailable and commitment resistant.
If, while you are involved with a Mr Unavailable (or an assclown for that matter) aside from his own patent inability to commit, you also lack the personal security that I talked about in yesterday’s post such as creating drama, having little or no boundaries, being a human transformer and basing your life around them, all this does is reaffirm whatever shady ideas they have about commitment and legitimise their resistance.
That doesn’t make you responsible for their resistance because they are resisting anyway but you are, by continuing to contribute to the dynamic, enabling their behaviour.
Why doesn’t an assclown see a committed relationship with you?
Because...they’re an assclown. If they possessed the skills, attributes, qualities and characteristics of someone who was suitable for a healthy, committed relationship, you wouldn’t be calling them an assclown.
If anything, you should be more concerned about why you want an assclown to commit to you. The only thing they’re committed to is being an assclown in their own little assclown world doing things in their assclowny way.
Be careful of seeking commitment from unlikely sources because it is a sign of your own issues with commitment.
If you’re wondering why a Mr Unavailable or assclown won’t make a commitment to you it’s because you’re looking for them to make you the exception to their rule of behaviour, even if their rule of behaviour is ‘I don’t commit’.
That is the bottom line.
You’re wondering ‘Why not me?’ when really, you are looking for commitment from someone who has a limited capacity to emotionally engage, a limited capacity to commit, which gives a limited relationship, a limited experience, and gives you a limited contribution.
You can totally control your own contribution into relationships and it’s easy to put all of the focus on him. Whether you’re with a healthy partner or dubious partner like a Mr Unavailable or assclown, a lack of personal security sends one of two messages:
To a healthy partner it doesn’t create good picture of security or a positive picture of commitment.
To a Mr Unavailable or assclown, it conveys that you are very likely to be receptive to their behaviour and because they know that they are not able to commit, they’ll assume that you can’t either.
Your thoughts?
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Haha! Nice ending to the post!
I have just read the last two posts in a row, and I appreciate both of them. Thank you. I think my ex was an AC – someone with genuine commitment, attachment, anxiety and narcissism issues with added anger and cruelty for extra zing. But, I can also see that I was being way too invested in an outcome, way too early, and that no matter how much I relaxed into things and became much less demanding and, even chilled/normal, that early stamp had already made a serious imprint in his perception of me.
Also, seeing as he already had commitment issues, he saw me as this intense, probably entitled, person trying to catch him, like an acquisition, whereas, being very into control, he wanted a woman who would let him do all the emotional regulation of the relationship; let him choose – almost completely – when the relationship moved (if at all) to the next stage.
Essentially, I don’t think I could have done too much differently to have a different outcome with him (he has yet to have a functional, happy relationship and he’s in his mid-thirties), but I can honestly put my hand up and say that I wrote the script in thick, black marker about what our relationship would and should be: MUST LEAD TO MARRIAGE – which ended up seeming terrifying and (quite rightfully) kind of bratty in his mind, and a burden for me: It robbed me of my own ability to select, to see whether he was worthy of me. It meant I was in roller skates doing tricks for him for half the relationship, once he started to scale back from his initial statements of super commitment and love.
I hope you’re with me on my many overblown metaphors, but, basically, I assure you, the ink of those ‘relationship declaration’ marker pens can’t be rubbed off, no matter how much sleeve you use or what chemical you try, and those damned skates also need to be cut off. Being authentic and stable in those early days is very important indeed.
Wow, Elle, your comment hit me hard. This whole post hit me hard! But I can totally relate to your experience. What really got me was “no matter how much I relaxed into things and became much less demanding and, even chilled/normal, that early stamp had already made a serious imprint in his perception of me.” Uhg. I acted the same way in my relationship and it never occurred to me how that would come across, to anyone in general but especially to him. :/ I didn’t realize that even in the moments when I wasn’t going crazy he still was seeing me as “that crazy, bratty girl who is so desperate she has no standards and will take whatever I dish out.” 😛 It’s been hard for me to let go of the “good” times we shared, but it helps (and hurts *sigh*) to realize that during the times I perceived to be to be fine/normal, he was still perceiving things in an unacceptable way. In my mind, we were having fun, hanging out, making memories. But in his mind, he had me right where he wanted me. There’s nothing special or valuable in that and I need to accept that there was no “special connection/magical time.” It was all destructive. Sorry if this is depressing, but I just wanted to let you know that your insights helped my chip off another bit from the heap of rubble I’m trying to clear out of my life. Hope all is going well for you. *hugs*
Well, glad to be of help. I know how you feel. I am probably a little further along the recovery path and am starting to see it all as a bit ridiculous, whereas for the first couple of months it was just so painful to, as NML would say, realize I had a pig’s ear in my hand, not a silk purse.
I was just so stunned by it all, and had completely overestimated my ability to make anyone feel comfortable and ‘in love’ with me, and completely underestimated the power of another person’s anxiety, and how off-putting my own fears (of it not being a long-lasting relationship) were for someone who was already pretty unsteady.
As much as I knew he had treated me like a complete sh*t in many ways, I had to start putting myself into the picture. Not to paralyse myself in blame and shame, but to isolate the lesson, create some sort of meaning out of my trauma, all so that I could actually get away from it. You have to take your lesson or two and look forward. It takes time, though, so don’t feel bad if you have a bit of a wobbly hour or day or few days. It’s a huge challenge to one’s identity, having built something up and realising it was based on very little.
Finally, don’t forget, that it was both of you that created the situation. If a man’s fairly mature, stable and willing to be invested, he’s unlikely (depending on how much crazy, of course) to obsess about one misstep you or I might make in those early days. He’d have a bit more perspective and grace about it all…
Thanks! And yes, it was definitely both of us; not just me, not just him. I have the power to evoke a response from someone but it is 100% their choice/responsibility HOW they respond to me. Someone else could have responded to me having the wrong ideas about what relationships mean and how to handle them in the complete opposite. Not all guys would have responded to me like he did. Just because it was unfair of me to act like that with him (or anyone), did not make it fair for him to not tell me how much certain things frustrated him and then use it to his advantage.
Excellent comment. “Someone else could have responded to me having the wrong ideas about what relationships mean and how to handle them in the complete opposite. ” So true! Some guys would realise what you were doing and back away because they didn’t want to take advantage of you. Others would say don’t do this to yourself. And then some, take it as a green light to take advantage.
Remember to look at the whole picture, not just the good times. It will help you not to be selective and nostalgic. (((hugs)))
Elle, this is without a doubt one of my most favourite comments EVER!
Why thank you! (That’s a definite win for me these days, as with having a post-AC STI check and coming up ‘all fine’. xx)
This is a great comment and a very thoughtful review of the relationship you had which, I suspect, mirrors those of many of us on the site, myself included. It is a deadly combination – him with his commitment fears and issues, her with her desire to fix, win and live happily ever after. We do tricks, we lose ourselves and we forget to ask ourselves if he is what we want – we just want the relationship. The part I didn’t see before was that he was as much in fantasy land in the beginning as I was in the end. He rushed in, thinking he was different, this time was different, I was different. When it turned out I was as much “work” as all the other girls (my AC has never had a stable, healthy long term relationship and he just turned 40), when I started to be human and flawed (despite my best roller skating tricks), he began to lose interest and withdraw. I, like Elle, thought I was cool, thought I was undemanding, thought I knew what was going on, but I now see that I became insecure in the relationship, began to wonder what was wrong with me that he wasn’t committing. Just as they can’t hide the fact they are assclowns forever, I doubt we do much better hiding our needs, our emptiness, our desire to be loved and adored.
I now solemnly promise that the second I feel myself performing, not being authentic, hiding who I am or denying any part of myself to stay in a relationship, I will stop. Nothing good will come of it.
Thanks Natalie, Elle and all the brilliant women on this site for helping me see the light.
Amen! I have just marked 7 days without contact–blocked my EUM A$$clown–I feel like a person drowning in guilt, pain and fear and am trying to come to terms with why I stayed so long (love, fear of being alone, fear of being “mean”). I could never understand why he wouldn’t commit to me, now I am slowly coming to realize that it was impossible for him to–I would have had a better chance of getting him to walk to Mars! He called the shots (and I let him), he set the tone (and I let him–any time I voiced concerns, pain, or frustration his line was “I can’t do this any more” and each time instead of bailing, I stayed and buried my feelings). I am embarassed and ashamed of my actions–and am now in the process of seeking help to not only understand but to learn the skills I need to stop this from happening again. I draw from all the wisdom and strength I find here. I want to be happy and am determined to learn how to be!
Although the bit about how he can neither commit to the relationship nor commit to ending it is depressing, I also find it very liberating because when I realised this I also came to understand that:
1. I have NOTHING to do with it! (so I needn’t feel hurt and rejected because it is not about me! And, funnily enough, for the first tme in years, I no longer feel hurt or rejected by this person.)
2. There is NOTHING I can do or not do about the situation. (so I can finally stop trying to ‘fix’ it, to fight with it, to find a way to make it better, to make it happen… finally, I can just bloody STOP. Thank God for that!)
3. I can stop hating him. I can only think he is pathetic, which may be sad, but sadly true, and actually easier to move on from.
4. I am in control. Not him. Me. Finally, I realise this, because he may not be able to commit to ANYTHING – but I CAN! And I do not need to commit myselff to his non-committal bullshit anymore! I can decide to opt out. I can commit to that. He can’t.
Thanks for the post Natalie – I have found these concepts helpful and I’m sure others will too. i also concur that sex with these people creates only an illusion of connectedness. Anyone involved with an EUM / assclown who is not convinced of this should stop having sex with the guy (don’t get into the position where this is likely to happen – avoid it, totally) and then see what connectedness he is actually offering you. You’ll find that the relationship flounders; you struggle to find any intimacy at all, your conversations are short, stilted, predictable, repetitive, pretty meaningless and often strained, and at best you will only be talking about what interests him – over and over again – conversation groundhog day!
My other reading beyond this site also affirms the inability of an EU person to commit to anything/anyone; others here may recognise these examples of some of the signs of a commitment phobe man:
-He may never have bought his own house. May live with friends, with an ex; he may rent a flat (apartment) but you’ll find it is more just a place for him to be than a place to live – he never makes a real ‘home’ for himself, or with anyone else.
-He may not buy a car; at least not an expensive one that he takes out finance for. Too big a commitment for him.
-His job is one that offers some flexibility with his time and space – or offers frequent or extended holidays.
They have a lot of acquaintances but few, if any, very close friendships. No-one really knows them well. And so you will find the non-committal issues pervade all areas of his life… his likes and dislikes, and his language (listen to what he is saying – objectively – and you’ll hear it!)
The points you make, NML, I think, are really the nub of the matter in coming to understand and free ourselves of these relationships and reclaiming your stuff! Once you realize that the problem is nothing to do with you, it really helps you get and maintain perspective… you can then let it go; let it all float away, like a balloon….
Oh my gosh, yes! They can’t commit to anything! I totally realized that recently thinking about everything my ex did. He couldn’t commit to staying in college, he couldn’t commit to a job, he couldn’t commit to having one (ONE!) night of the week that was just ours… etc. It’s like they never make the adult connection that in order to have anything WORTHWHILE you have to make some sort of sacrifice. For instance, he hated is job because he couldn’t be out late at night hanging with his friends, but yet without the money from the job, he wouldn’t have been able to have a car/gas to get to his friends period… He ended up being fired because he didn’t give a crap about his job performance. *rolls eyes*
You do have to feel sorry for them (to a point, cuz it’s not about them anymore). That’s gotta be a pretty miserable way to exist. I believe that all the negative things people do stems back to unresolved hurts and griefs that they’re carrying around, so to be as extreme as these guys can get, they must have some serious inner turmoil. I hope and pray that someday my ex can find the help and healing he needs to grow up (and *cough* grow some balls…) for his sake. But it is definitely not my concern anymore. Being around him, breathing in his toxic atmosphere, only poisoned me and made my own problems and issues worse.
And you definitely can’t let yourself feel unwanted. You could have been the most perfect, together girl on the planet and he still couldn’t have committed. It’s not ever the girl that’s the problem, it’s the committment.
*hugs*
Excellent comment Fearless. Like you said, even what on the face of it is depressing information, it is indeed liberating because you can move on and make different choices. These guys wouldn’t know a connection if it was hot wired to their bottoms and the reality is that the habitually emotionally unavailable man knows how to say and do things that the women he’s involved with latch onto. It’s us that need to get wise – they will stay the same unless they have their own major breakthrough. We can focus on them all we want but it doesn’t change the fact that we are in charge of our choices and that opting out is often the biggest favour we can do ourselves.
You will move past the blame and shame and grow out of this experience. Our relationships serve to teach us about ourselves and out of this you are discovering what you need to do to have a different, healthier experience.
Fearless said: “that sex with these people (eum) creates only an illusion of connectedness.” really spoke to me. I think that’s what happened to me in my situation. Having sex with a man put my needs first and actually wanted to hold me and talk to me afterwards and spend lots of time with me outside of the bedroom. I interepted his behavior as proof that he loved me-that this was love-that this was him demonstrating his love for me when in fact it wasn’t -it was just what he liked to do- it’s what made him feel good and in fact wasn’t a sign that he loved me at all or that we were meant to be together at all. Maybe in a normal relationship that is true but not in one with a EUM -a MM interested only in having a mistress. In my mind I thought it meant more -because it meant more to me.
I too have come to understand that it’s not my fault that he is the way he is. And that I shouldn’t feel rejected because he didn’t pick me over her. He is a selfish, self-serving man who wants to use his wife and his marriage for what he can get out of it and have mistress on the side for what he can get out of her. I had to take control and get myself out of this abusive unhealthy situation -I took responsiblity for me and my life. I had to wake up to the reality and drop my illusions and stop thinking that I could love this man enough that he would be an different then he was. He’s the way he is not because of his wife either. He’s is the way he is because of who he is as a person. He’s a person who isn’t able to be truly commited to anyone unless it benefits him and at the expense of others. That’s just wrong. I told him if he doesn’t love his wife enough to be faithful to her then why stay married?? I got the list of reasons-doesn’t want to go through a divorce because it’s really hard to have to go through it cause he did before (she dumped him), doesn’t want to lose what he’s worked so hard for, would lose his house cause he couldn’t afford to buy her out. You know what I am not even gonna go into the other multitude of “reasons” cause you know why-IT DOES’NT MATTER. He’s a decitful, manipulative person who lacks integrity-which means he’s not a person that is capable of having a healthy relationship with any woman. Least of all me. Thanks to Natalie for all the wonderful insight and knowledge that I have learned from and now apply to myself and my life. Thank you to all the women on here that have shared their stories and what they have learned also it’s been a true blessing to me.
Congrats to all the women who are taking control of their lives-it’s so inspiring. I recommend this website to all the women I know-there is knowledge to be gained here that you just can’t learn anywhere because it’s real people & real life happening right before our eyes dealing with really complex issues sharing their expierences. It’s awesome.
ANother great post and I’m glad you clarified what you meant in yesterday’s post – after I read that one, I had the feeling it was all my fault. Glad to see the assclowns of the world still carry their fair share of the blame. Happy to say that, thanks to this site, I feel much more educated about assclowns, hope I can now recognize one quickly and will know better than to destroy myself looking for commitment where none is possible. This post has come at a good time – my assclown is about to return to work and I will be seeing him everyday, but couldn’t care less. If it looks like an assclown and walks like an assclown……
With you on that one Tina – I thought it was entirely my fault for being blind and or lacking in something or rather not enough of this or that. This post really clears that up. I am responsible for me and working on my relationship habits is my business – his relationship habits are his problem and thankfully no longer mine to deal with.
Good job Nat
I think you have realised the key to all this – when someone is behaving like an assclown and doing things that detract from us, making the choice to pursue commitment is dangerous. The fact is that we can always choose differently and it is the fact that in spite of adverse assclown weather conditions that we proceed where we have to be accountable for ourselves.
Adverse Assclown Weather Conditions LOL OMG that’s funny!
AAWC great code word for going out with girlfriends when you run into one of those. I can call my girls at the club and ask them “how’s the weather conditions” LOL Sometimes you just kill me
I love your posts and I read the last one and thought, what if he didn’t commit because he wasn’t that into me? Maybe it’s not always because they have commitment issues but rather, they don’t want a relationship with YOU (or in this case, me). I know the end result is the same…you need to move on cause why would you want to be with anyone who doesn’t want to be with you but that is the part that hurts. I am not positive that my assclown wouldn’t commit to anyone, I just know he wouldn’t commit to me.
Lisa,
I think when you are with an EUM for long enough, you just know! It is unmistakeable when you know what you are looking for.
Has he ever committed to anyone? (this doesn’t just mean marriage – has he ever had a ‘real relationship’?)
If he doesn’t want to commit to you, is he committing to ‘not you’? If not, why not? What does he commit to? Anyone? Anything? Ever? Or just you? (these are all rhetorical questions)
You should know the answer by looking at the ‘signs’ of an EUM and see how many of them apply to your man… if you can tick many or most of the boxes, then he cannot commit to you – or to anyone else; he seeks and runs from intimacy in equal measure
Good luck
Great analysis Fearless – I have felt the same way as Lisa. But if I really look at it. He was with his ex wife for 10 years (5 yrs married). They divorced – he got a girl immediately pregnant. 8 months later trying to get his wife back, she died tragically in a car accident (One Time in Band – trust me he uses it) – that was only one month before his son was born – there have been at least 7 since that he’s done the flip-flop with including me. His “wife” (that is ex – but still calls her wife) has been dead for 17 years. It is sad – but when I really look at it – he can’t even commit to his son – has not seen him in 4 years. Son got tired of meeting all the women – he even told me that – I just didn’t want to hear it.
Even if it is a case that they don’t want a relationship with you, that doesn’t have to be down to anything you have done. Attraction and love don’t come with IOUs. Whatever his reason is, the key piece of information is that he doesn’t want the same thing and from that moment onwards, you need to be working your way away from that.
Hi Natalie – While I whole heartedly agree with the idea that love doesn’t come with IOUs, I do have to wonder at what point you are “owed” something in the relationship. I fully get that my caring for him doesn’t obligate him to care for me, but I do feel, after months together, that I was “owed” an honest, direct and respectful end to the relationship when he decided he was no longer in it. To my mind, what truly makes my ex an assclown was that, after all the promises and hype and energy of the beginning, when he changed his mind and no longer wished to pursue the relationship, I feel I was entitled to be told that, not just sent a series of bizarre mixed messages and the hope that I “got the message” because he began to blow cold. I’m not talking about someone I went on a few dates with – there was far more to it than that, even by assclown standards. I think that some of the anger and frustration I feel now isn’t solely about validation – I do think it is fair to say we are “owed” something in the end, even if it is just a real, clear goodbye.
I agree, but even debt collectors recognise when it will cost them more to pursue collecting what is owed than it will to chalk it up to a bad debt and move on.
You can be owed something, but you don’t always get it. People don’t always do the decent thing. I’m owed an explanation by few exes but I had to make up my own mind. I could have waited around for a hundred years waiting for that mixed message to become clear but in the end, I had to listen to the mixed message and make my own deductions. You can say goodbye without saying goodbye. A relationship can be over without it being directly said it’s over. Of course it’s better to state it, but it’s better to do a lot of things but we are not all operating equally, we don’t all do the decent thing, and if someone doesn’t want to give you what you feel you’re owed, then it’s your job to decide how much energy you’re going to expend on demanding and getting an explanation and you also have to decide when to opt out.
Great advice and I guess on some level I already know that. The problem is I work extremely closely with my ass clown and there is now a clearly stated expectation by those we work with that I need to “forgive and forget” and give him a free pass for his behaviour, even when he refuses to apologize, acknowledge what happened or in any way hold himself accountable for his part in what went on (which was typically assclown bad by the end). I would love to be that big, that mature, that zen but I just can’t. The most I can do for now is maintain NC and ignore him (excluding communication that needs to occur for work, which to date has been done by email). I know it will make everyone else (and me) happier and reduce the tension but I feel I gave away so much of myself and my self esteem to this man already, I can’t just pretend it didn’t happen. I have never been this unhappy in my life. Is this just still validation seeking or is this having and protecting my boundaries? I feel it is the second one and therefore necessary for me to do but it can be tough to tell what is just drama and prolonging my pain at this point. Help!
This is one of my first times posting, although I have been a reader since February 2010 (found this site because of my broken relationship). I read something helpful yesterday. It was from this site called 2knowmyself.com. It said that in order to “get over someone” quickly, you had to lose all hope of getting back together. The I-can’t-get-over-him feeling comes from the uncertainty and the hope of getting back together. I know that sometimes these EUM’s won’t give us closure, but the sooner we are convinced it is over, the sooner we will move on. I think this is why I am finally able to move on. I waited for six months for HIM to come back. I thought if he would just come back and give it a chance, he would see what he was missing. Well, nothing had changed. And the same thing happened again: closeness and fleeing. I finally decided I can’t live like that anymore, so I have accepted that we will not be together. Now that I have found this “closure” (not from him but myself; my decision), I am thinking about him less and less, sometimes I have gone a whole day and I realize at night that I “forgot” about him. It’s amazing how quickly this is happening now, after six months of pain and feeling devastated.
I think it is important to make the distinction between not commiting to a particular individual, and habitually avoiding commitment. If someone is not confident enough to say “thanks but no thanks” it does not mean they are necessarily an assclown. My ex married his wife a few days before she died, when she was in a hospice and couldn’t come home. It suited him to make a commitment to a dying woman. They had been together for years flip flopping in and out of a relationship. I saw them going back and forward, all the time knowing he was shagging other women. After his ‘wife’ died, I thought he might have learned what was important in life and made the BIG mistake of believing this time it would be different. I’d known him years, and his relationship stories were all the same. It was no different for me, surprise surprise. And yes, I fell for the ‘one day’ routine, too. It was his grief, his guilt, his retirement, his family, his job, his his his…it was all about him and not about me. I ended up with no idea who I was any more and therefore under his total control. Natalie describes my ex to a T in this post, but without the cruelty, manipulation and violence. Yes, ‘eyeswideopen’, you are right. I hope he NEVER commits. Not because I want him to suffer but, because I don’t want someone else to go through what he has put countless women through.
Exactly – none of us has to commit just because the other person wants it. We have all not been interested in someone who is interested in us. It’s a part of life. But this is vastly different to someone who isn’t intending to commit to anyone, period. Your ex was a joke – how noble of him to commit when he knew it would last a matter of days….
“Because he doesn’t see a committed relationship with anybody. If he does, it is often short lived and based on a fantasy.”
Natalie and girls, can you please help me out here! What does “short lived” mean. I know emotionally unavaliable men, who had 2 year, or 5 year relationships. Does that mean that they were not unavaliable???
I would really appreciate an opinion about this!
Ana
The EUM can have a “relationship” with the same women for years.. but I can tell you for sure that just because it goes on for years does not make it “committed” – it is, as someone just said, a lot of filp-flapping around… for years. They are never really “in it” – never really “out of it”.
The relationship goes on but it never moves on.
Fearless….You couldn’t be more right….”They are never really “in it†– never really “out of itâ€. “The relationship goes on but it never moves on”.
I know so many people like this it is scary!
I concur. I have heard it said that if a guy truly cares, you feel consistently chosen by him. With my EUM, I felt consistently LESS chosen. As the relationship went on, I moved further and further down his list of priorities. He would still pay attention to me, but it was ALWAYS on HIS terms, and after a while it felt like his heart was not really in it; it was just a chore he had to perform to keep me around for those rare moments when HE needed something. This lasted for a year and a half. Well, ok, we broke up twice during that year and a half, but it was always the same old story. Him being nice, caring, and involved at the start of the relationship, which got my hopes up, but then he would gradually put more and more distance between us and I would end up disappointed all over again at the poor quality of our relationship. The only way he could maintain a relationship was at a sub-par level..
Ana,
I think of a “relationship” as a form of mating. A mated couple interacts with their community as a unit – a family. Finding someone to be your helpmeet in public and among the community (constructively, when no alcohol is served) is very different from finding an intimate companion.
The problem with the unavailable types is they don’t see anything beyond their convenience. They are more apt to isolate you from friends and family than to work on a reputation as a couple, as a resource together in the neighborhood.
Think of an emotionally unavailable man as a room mate. Many room mate situations last for years – they have for me, even with women for room mates. But there was never a chance that anything worthwhile would develop.
An EUM in a relationship for 2 or 5 years means that he was comfortable enough to stay, and she didn’t believe enough in herself, didn’t cherish her self esteem enough, and/or didn’t believe life could be better, enough, to throw his butt out and move on.
I hope the ways NML shows to identify EUM types, the self esteem and boundary and other guidance that make this site and NML’s books worthwhile, help you find enough answers to live well and happily – which is the very best way to find a healthy guy looking for a healthy relationship.
Brilliant explanation Brad – Mr Unavailable is a room mate that wasn’t going to develop into something else indeed! Length really has nothing to do with it. Holding onto an unavailable man for years is not an accomplishment.
Ana, I personally know people who have been involved with the same emotionally unavailable guy for over ten years. That doesn’t change who he is. They had a relationship but it was a crap one – not all relationships are created equal. People can already know the fantasy is over but will stay in the relationship for convenience or shag around.
Shouldn’t we be thanking our lucky stars that these jerks DON’T see a committed relationship with us? I believe that all relationships exist to teach us something, provided we are smart enough to look and listen. Perhaps the entire evolutionary purpose of assclowns is to provide the much needed kick in the ass that propels decent but confused women to begin to look at themselves, learn to love and respect themselves and grow ourselves up from the ground up and get whatever it is that we didn’t get as kids. Attraction is just two wounded psyches recognizing each other. While I hated what my assclown did, I have to be grateful in the long run that he did it. Otherwise, I would never have been motivated to begin the journey I am now on and I wouldn’t have learned the valuable things I have learned about myself. Two months of hell from a jerk seems a small price to pay to learn such important lessons. Imagine if these morons did commit – we would all be in the most miserable marriages and relationships. Thank god they are gutless weasels – they are just fulfilling their necessary roles in our growth and development. May they never learn to commit!
Great comment. We should be relieved that we got away not mourning the loss of a man that never was or could be. It’s like mourning the loss of trash – if you get it back, it will still be trash. Assclowns aren’t the type of thing you can upcycle.
NML, I love your statement: It’s like mourning the loss of trash – if you get it back, it will still be trash, it makes me laugh so hard everytime I read this. 🙂 You have such an awesome and comforting way of explaining things. My favorite still is: “Dog in a Manger”. Sorry, I am off topic but I had to comment. Thanks, I just love reading BR.
Great post per usual. Too be honest I still miss the AC sometimes (almost 30 days NC) but because a) I was somewhat EUM back then too b) because I wanted to be the exception c) I was trying to rewrite things that happened in my childhood, especially with my narcissistic father and most of all for me d) because this guy had actually controlled me so much that it was a mild form of brainwashing/stockholm syndrome. Relationships with AC are a lot about control and manipulation (yes in some ways I was controlling things too) but he so skillfully controlled when we see eachother, what we did that I was controlled in to thinking and even feeling a certain way for him. It is hard to de-program right away. It’s getting better but it’s not automatic. The important thing is to never ever contact him again. Although knowing this AC he will not contact me.
Give yourself time. It’s like getting over a massive trauma. The key is that you detach yourself from him and you don’t seek out the source of your pain.
How do you define a “committed relationship”? My guess is the men you are talking about define it differently perhaps as a monogamous relationship not living together, having kids together, or marriage. The failure to launch into these other types of committed relationships is likely due to previous experience with divorce which is a perfectly rational decision for some men. Honesty is important, it is no secret to the woman I am involved with that I am not interested in a baby or a financial union. If she changes her mind and wants a different type of commitment, that doesn’t make me an assclown because I didn’t change my mind at the same moment; she is free to move on and find someone else that wants the same thing.
I would ask you to think about how honestly and clearly you have expressed this to her. If you are anything like the men we are talking about here, it is possible that you are saying one thing and doing another. You may feel that because she stays, she sees things your way, but you should at least hold out the possibility that she sees things differently. That was what happened with me and my ex – we were having two completely different relationships and weren’t talking about it openly and honestly enough to realize it. Please don’t assume that, if she stays, she agrees. Talk to her. Best of luck.
Katmando, a habitually emotionally unavailable man, someone who does not have any real intentions of committing that persists in a relationship with someone who makes it clear that they are looking for a commitment, is responsible for the mixed communication. You’re right about her changing her mind, and you have just as much of a responsibility to move on at that point as she does. There are indeed different levels of commitment, but it’s probably better to ask ‘Do you want to have children? Would you like to get married? If this is what you would like to do, I am going to tell you now that I am not having any children and there will be no marriage or financial union of any sort, which means that really, you need to be totally OK with that. Take some time to think about this but please don’t start this with a view to changing my mind at a later date, because I won’t.’ That is clear.
NML how do you know these men so well?!! You just described the turd I was dating!!
Just recently texting and “sniffing around” after he broke up with the girl he was dating. These men are leeches, suck the life out of you, leave you emotionally drained, empty and then try to get some more even after you have cut the cord with them. Attempting to *still* brake in and disrespect your boundaries of NC!!!.
These men are truly a waste of society and a pest to well rounded, giving, wonderful, loving women in the planet who once believed in them and were genuine in the relationship. Same goes with Assclown women!
We need to promote your message some more so that these turds cease to exist.
I understand your anger – I felt the same way – and the anger is actually useful for a while, in helping you break free of the relationship. What is so great about this site, however, is that it is designed to help us realize what it is about us that leads us to get into and stay in these relationships. When you are ready, please keep reading here. Shift the focus from hating and blaming him to learning about yourself and it will not likely happen again. Gob bless Natalie and BR!
Hilarious! The wonderful thing is that the more women that get wise to these guys, is the less opportunity there is for them. If more women would stop giving them the time of day, these guys would start to see their actions more realistically. Because they don’t feel major consequences and can still ‘get’ women, they don’t feel they need to be different.
Totally agree. They never have any ‘consequences’, they just move on to the next one. And there is always a next one.
This is why I think they should not get the ‘no hard feelings’ talk… the ‘let’s end this nicely so we can all still feel good about ourselves and about him’ discussion. They should be left in no doubt that their hellish relationship behaviour is hurtful, selfish, damaging and unacceptable, and and they should be told straight that they need to ‘get lost and get help’ in that order and in the same final sentence!
@Katmando. As I said, there are often genuine reasons why someone does not want to commit. That does not an assclown make. If a person makes it clear they are not looking for long term stuff, good. NML has posted before about failing to hear what’s being said, and if the other party does not hear/does not want to hear what’s being said, then it would appear THEY are the assclown. It’s when a person SAYS they want to commit, SAYS they have intentions of building a life together, SAYS “you are the one” and then DOES the opposite that the problems start. You are spot on to say that honesty is important; actually honesty in essential.
The universe really does send us what we need when we are ready. I spent months trying to force a commitment out of my ex. I found this website a few weeks ago, when I was suffering after the end of a 5 month relationship with what I now know to be an assclown. I was looking for answers on how to get him back, trying to understand his commitment phobia and convinced I could fix him so that we could live happily ever after. After reading every single post of this site, I now see things clearly and I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. I see that I was looking for validation, not loving or respecting myself enough to walk away, completely without boundaries and was living in a complete fantasy world. He rushed in, acted like a boyfriend and was sure I was the one. I responded in kind, without stopping to think whether he was even a good guy. I ignored my gut and the warning signs and refused to see or accept who he really was. When he cooled off and dumped me, I thought I was going insane. Before I even knew what it was called, I started the NCR and have maintained it for over 2 months now.
I work with him and starting next week have to see him again every day. When he dumped me, I said I wanted to be friends. I now realize that’s impossible. I only said that out of fear and to keep whatever crumbs of the relationship remained. He isn’t a good man, he isn’t emotionally safe and he refuses to be held accountable for his actions – how is that the basis of a friendship? Rather than continue to break my own heart, I realize now that nothing good comes from having this man in my life. At first, I thought if he apologized and showed remorse, we could be friends but I have to accept him for who and what he is, not what I want him to be. I need to protect and care for myself and that means keeping him out of my life. I can be professional and courteous, provided he is as well. All contact needs to be strictly business and I see it as my sole responsibility to make sure it stays that way, as he is likely to try and blur the lines. I have established my boundaries and, if I ever feel myself slipping, I will return to this site immediately for reinforcement.
Thank you so much for all you have done. You have saved my life and sanity and kept me from continuing to destroy myself over a man who was not worth it. I have such respect for people who are able to take their pain and do something positive with it and you are a shining example of that. Thank you for letting me learn from your experience and wisdom.
Oh thank you CE. It is great to be able to make a difference with my own experiences. Nobody should be in the dark about these situations – too many people think it’s unique to them or something they’ve caused. Knowledge is freeing. You can’t be friends with this guy and you will still be a great person if you’re not. Keeping it strictly professional is the only way to go. By being totally in charge of your own output, he will be forced to adapt. Good luck! ((((hugs))))
Great post NML and a timely reminder for some of us.
It has taken me 45 years and at least two assclowns to admit it but I am emotionally unavailable. I don’t think I always was, but since my divorce 15 years ago, I guess part of me shut down and I didn’t realize it. I have been obsessing about them, focusing on them and their problems but it really is me I have to worry about. I assumed because they both ran at me in the beginning, so sure, that whatever I was feeling when they ran away was “love” and my need for commitment. In fact, it was just fear and the need for validation. If I had really wanted a stable, loving relationship, neither of these two guys would have lasted 2 minutes. They develop the ability to fake a future, while I developed the ability to believe I wanted a future. Neither was true. This has be revolutionary for me – thank you waking me up.
Sarah, your post has really resonated with me. I’m currently in the “trying to dump him” phase of a relationship (ie fling) with a married man whom I also work with who has only just started to exhibit assclown like behaviour after 3 months of really being a very nice guy. While I take full responsibility for agreeing to see him in the first place fully knowing he was married with young children and would never leave his family he does have some responsibility in initially chasing me and leading me to believe the usual lies married men tell. Long story short while at the time I was emotionally unavailable and not looking to get into another committed relationship after splitting from my partner of 7 years, I now realise that I need more than just amazing sex and crumbs of attention. Because of my UM’s assclown behaviour I now know myself and what I want out of a relationship when before I thought I could get by with casual dating or sex. I’m sure assclowns do come into our lives for a reason and I’m finally in the space where I can take those lessons and put them to good use. This blog has helped enormously so thanks so much to NML and all who have contributed.
You are more than welcome. When we wake up to our own part in our lives, it’s very empowering. I used to think it was ‘them’ and I was having an extended run of bad luck. Then I realised that I was making some dangerous choices and carrying a dangerous mindset and even though it was scary, I realised that I could now be in charge of changing my path.
Hey Natalie,
You may have already written on this (and this may be one for a direct email – not quite sure of protocol so apologies if this is out of turn), but one thing that I am finding challenging, about which I’d love to hear your views as well as seasoned readers (at some point), is what to do with that sudden zeal you get when you’re recovering, and feeling quite good and even (ahem) grateful for the experience. It’s the zeal that makes you want to contact the AC, not to resume a relationship or even a friendship, but just to have a bit of a debrief/’we’re good (at peace) now’ session. I would like to think I can just know this on my own, but I keep having this need to somehow ritualize (with him or someone) the fact that I am out of the haze, and have had all these amazing insights…But then I consider that I must still want an outcome to feel the need to confirm that change with him, and that I should, at my age, be able to move on even if things look messy and unresolved, from a bird’s eye perspective. And there is still the issue of trust (ie trust that he would (a) care and (b) not use it as another opportunity to be the ‘good guy’). I am wondering whether you have any views on the sorts of relationships or post-break up states when the ‘break-up’ chat is healthy as a way of finding peace and moving on (and it has been a good way for me in the past to heal from break-ups) and when it is simply a continuation of fear and general approval-seeking nonsense. I may have answered this already in my comments, but I’d love a set of indicators! ; ) (Of course, only if you feel like it. Thanks!)
I’m butting in here.
The man emphatically does NOT want a debrief. It’s the last thing he wants. After x months of no contact why would he suddenly want to explain himself to you? He was not interested in your thoughts and feelings during the relationship, what will happen in x months time to make him care?
He MAY be motivated to talk to you just for a shag, or the possibility of a shag, or to hear how much you still like him cos that makes him feel good about himself. But he DOES NOT WANT to talk about his shortcomings, or how he could have done things better or to recognise that he hurt you. Why would he want to do that?
But, more pertinently, why do you still care?
Sorry but I have to agree with Grace as well. At best, you are trying to learn his lessons for him (or decide what his lessons are), which is just another way of trying to change or fix him. If there are legitimately no hard feelings and you have completely forgiven him, the possibility exists that you might want to try a “friendship” with him, although that will sadly not be any more likely to succeed than the relationship did, as it will still be on his terms, his time and his way. I would suggest you just enjoy the high for as long as it lasts (I, too, have experienced periods of euphoria since beginning my journey of healing but they have been somewhat short lived).
Your assclown has not grown up, changed or had an epiphany and isn’t likely to, just because you reestablish contact and try and set him straight. He will probably misinterpret your attempt to contact him as license to sniff around again, with your implied permission, of course. Nothing has really changed except you. Enjoy that. Hold on to that but don’t take it as a sign that you are ready to reengage with an assclown. He’s still an assclown. Ask yourself honestly why you think you want to contact him. It’s likely that you think you have changed enough for things to be different this time. Just please remember he won’t be different this time, unless worse is different.
Elle,
I agree with Grace and Tina. If he’d something to say, he’d be saying it himself – he doesn’t need an invitation to clean up the mess – the one he left at your house!
Let me tell you, in five years (and less than that) you will look back with wonder that you thought a ‘no hard feelings talk’ was maybe a good idea – in time you will simply wish you had ‘taken the legs off him’ (metaphorically speaking!) then walked away without so much as a backward glance.
Actions speak for themselves.. Right now he gets the message, and he’s not wondering whether he should invite you for a de-briefing or tidy-up session! He made the mess and he thinks you should just deal with it! Don’t offer him a ‘get our of jail free card’. Let him go away and think about what he has done. He knows what that is. Any invitation from you – for any purpose – will merely confirm to him what he already thinks: that he doesn’t need to be responsible for his lack commitment – to anything!
Take care! x
There is never a good reason to make contact with an assclown. Ever. You should never have to convince someone to respect you. There is no benefit to reintroducing him into your life. Like Natalie says in “suck it and see”, you stand to be disappointed, rather than validated or vindicated. If you are feeling strong and better, enjoy that feeling. Why waste it on him? When was the last time he made you feel that way?
Thanks lovely ladies, I think you’re all right. I suspect the answer to ‘why do I still care?’ comes from some residual Christianity (still affects you when you’re not a practising one!) /family upbringing stuff in which I was taught to always resolve things, to try to see things from other people’s perspective, and, to forgive in an active sense. I have never done NC with anyone in my life, friendship or otherwise, so it’s a very new thing for me, and I find it hard – and in a weird way, very intimate and tiring – to have someone who I don’t talk to in the world because he has busted my boundaries. I’d rather have it as nothing. But perhaps that change to ‘nothing’ comes with time and confidence, and, I do agree with what you’re saying – and it struck me yesterday – that it’s actually up to him to mop up the vomit. The facts are, that he left me to deal with it all on my own (and without a place to live, in effect) when he ended things via email, so I have to go through with that til the end, and not to look back. It’s a hard habit to break, though.
I don’t think my deep-seated motivations are for a resumed relationship with this guy – I don’t want to be with a nutty person who think it’s OK to belittle and lash out – but there must be some motivation along the lines you guys are saying, that’s a little grey and not entirely healthy, probably close to what Tina was saying about finding his lessons for him, and me doing a bit of due diligence on myself (ie because I can see my role in it, I somehow think it’s fair to own up to that – but I also know that the less than healthy stuff I offered to the table was not unkind or reckless or irresponsible so some of my thinking here is skewed). I imagine experiencing some kind of healing through that conversation. Often NML’s posts give me such a jolt of energy and insight that I feel like I need to share that with him. But I guess I have to keep it for myself and my own glittery future, and the love-ones around me.
Thanks for taking the time and effort to respond. I guess I have to see this all as something new for me to learn, and, take the long view (5 year perspective) as you said, Fearless. Will probably return to these comments when I need a gentle redirection.
Elle – I feel for you,as I am going through much the same thing. After 2 months NC, my AC is back at work every day and we work extremely closely together. I saw him for the first time on Friday and just blanked him. Its exhausting and feels very childish, but I have to trust the process. He hasn’t changed and I have come to realize that expecting anything from him leads to more hurt and disappointment for me. When we ended things, he went on and on about how much the friendship meant to him and he would never allow that to end….well, guess that was a viral thing because since that second, I have seen not one piece of evidence that any of that was true. I want to hear him say he’s sorry -but he won’t. I want him to hold himself accountable for his behaviour and hurting me – but he won’t. I want him to clean up his mess – but he won’t. I have to accept that. Endless discussions about respect and how he was treating me fell on deaf ears and only made me feel stupid and powerless. You can teach someone how to treat you but if they show repeatedly that they will not treat you well, the only option is to not let them treat you at all. I still hold out a single ounce of hope that there is anything of worth and value in him and that he will do the right thing and apologize, but I have to stay rooted in reality and protect my boundaries when he doesn’t. I, too, feel NC is unnatural, particularily with someone I see everyday and used to be so close to, but it is all I have left. The alternative was unacceptable. Stay strong and worry only about you. I can guarantee you that he is only thinking of himself right now.
posts of brilliance! Hi Elle, I felt I had to come in here, been following this blog and its sister’ Why doesn’t he want a commited relationship with me’. I recognise how you feel so so deeply, Its bigger than wanting closure…you feel having had these insights that if he somehow speaks to you then ultimate closure will happen. Never!!!!!
I felt like this too, I wanted somehow for it all to have context, for it all to have mattered that he would say’remember that Christmas when…’ or’ what was actually wrong with us was…?’. Its not possible with an AC, truly…. I had my opportunity and we talked as of old and I heard him using all the old phrases and watched the turn of his head and we drank a bit of wine, well I did, he was coming out of rehab, Ha!!! And I thought whats the harm in a bit of glorious love-making to round it all off. In truth, I had probably wanted that from the start, or my un- recovered self had. I’ve been clear of him for nearly two years, Wow!!! so proud of myself… Next day he phoned, he was still the same AC,yes, he was wiser in the reasons we had broken up, he had had good sex, he was still charming, gulp…. After a week I was mummified, bereft,short of breath again. Its simply not possible with an ASS CLOWN. They are in a different sphere/matrix to you..do you know a ‘Martian sends a postcards home’ the poem….its about them. They live and breathe a different air and have absolutely no empathy of any other way of being. Wise, wise words Grace….I disagree on only one point, he does want a debrief, or will take a debrief if offered, he will take any briefs if offered. Then he’ll go again and it will be as if it never happened. Why, clever, encouraging brilliant Elle do you care? C’mon!!
Thanks Leslie. Yes, it’s definitely got a lot to do with feeling like going through this on my own is a LONG road, whereas if I got to speak to him and have the talk (the ‘I understand why we didn’t work’ talk), I could shortcut to ‘ultimate closure’. I recognise that NC is essentially for me, and I am trusting and committed to the process (have not breached it once in 10 weeks!), and will of course, be even more grateful to Natalie and the women who write here, whose wisdom I borrow, when I truly have that moment of when AC’s name/image has very little, if any, emotional impact (probably always going to be a small wince). But it is about me wanting a final ritual to end things….I guess that’s cheating the process, and could, possibly, end up with me back in the mess again (will use your experience, LB, as a blueprint!).
Anyway, these past two posts have been great – and I should take the positives from them. I remember @Enlightened told me that, at the start of the mess for me: to take the positive lessons and just keep going.
Eyeswideopen,
what a dreadful experience – but you have moved on! That he shows up like a bad penny is exactly NML’s point in this blog – that he cannot commit to being with you – but equally he cannot commit to NOT being with you, hence he turns up at our door, on our email, our mobile phones… and why do they? To do little ‘blowing hot’ – that’s why, because they can’t commit to f-ing for good! But you CAN!
And think how far you have come… if he had shown up like this before now – before you had reclaimed your sensible head – you would (I’m supposing) have been convinced that just showing his assclown face at you door must mean he has made a miraculous turn-around, he has finally ‘seen the light’, and you would have all but yanked him through the door (before he could change his mind!) all glad and grateful that he has come to “save you” from the very misery he has caused you.
I can understand your fear and just bolting – it’s natural, now that you are aware of the damage he causes you. As NML says, these men mean you no good; so what were you supposed to do? Talk some sense into him? Tell him how you feel? He doesn’t care how you feel. He is dropping by to see if you are still there for him not to commit to! He got a flea in his ear. Good for you. The rest will pass.
I thought I was doing ok but I am not. After more than 2 months no contact, I opened my door today and there was my assclown. I thought I was getting healthier, focusing on me, recognizing my need for validation and seeing him for what he really was but the experience completely upset me none the less. I didn’t speak to him, blanked him completely (not the most mature response, I know, but I couldn’t handle anything else) and ran away. For a while, I had prayed for contact. Then, I got stronger and knew I didn’t want it. Do they have some sort of radar that tells them when you are finally letting go and trying to move on? I don’t know what he wanted and don’t really care. I just had a very physical (almost terrified or flight response) reaction and have been tearful ever since. I was so proud of myself and thought I had made such progress – why does it still feel like he has power over me? I know nothing has changed, he hasn’t changed and that nothing will be any better if he was looking to restart things. I have no interest in being hurt and destroyed again. I just had hoped I was further along than this. It makes me sad and a little afraid. Why do they delight in torturing us? Just because they can? What is wrong with these men?
Darling Girl,
Don’t worry. I will venture to say that many of us have been taken unaware in similar situations.
I think it’s because intellectually we know the truth, but encountering them brings back all those sense memories of what we once *thought* we had. It’s painful.
When I accidentally come across something related to my EX,
I just remind myself that none of it was true. The only love and respect in our *relationship* was my love and respect for him. So really, I didn’t lose anything. It was never actually there.
Continue the No Contact. What ever you do, don’t agree to be his *friend* — I know I don’t have to tell you why that won’t work.
Be grateful that you don’t have to see him. God bless the women who have to continue seeing their EX-AC’s because of carreer or child obligations; we’re fortunate enough to have a choice.
I wish I could give you a hug. It’s been some time for me, but I still have crappy days when something brings it back. It always helps me to come here and get a reality check.
Will be thinking of you, and sending loving and positive energy your way.
This situation reminds me of a book that I have in my library called, “The Impossibility of Sex” by Susan Orbach. In Chapter One, she writes about the Vampire Cassanova. He was a real gem. She was a Psychotherapist who he came to in order to ‘heal’ his assclownry. He had already gone through thousands of women and fleeced a few to boot! She held him off for a while, but he then got under her skin. No one is sacred. He had the classic ‘One Band’ personna. This is why many individuals in the Counseling profession decline to take on the job. There was a good ending to the story though. He was finally able to commit and she was able to disengage and return to her family. But not without a great deal of struggle. Hence, the Vampire Cassanova!
Peace to you all! And RUN LIKE HELL if you think your empathy is getting played like a violin……:-)
What is wrong with these men is they don’t care about you and what you need or how you feel. They only care about themselves and what they want in the moment. You are strong – you didn’t cave. You have learned and grown – you didn’t engage him. There is no right or mature way to deal with a man-child – that you ran away is perfectly fine. The only important thing is to protect yourself, care for yourself. He was not coming to make a commitment. He was not coming to apologize or make things right. He was coming to screw with you some more, simply to prove to himself that he could. That he showed up, uninvited and unannounced shows how little respect he has for you and your feelings and needs. I say you handled it beautifully.
Just to say I love NML’s line that ‘Mr Unavailable has danced this dance many times before’…same problems different woman… I love it but it chills me to the core to read it… Is there not a point where the penny proverbially drops,that is do they not look in the mirror one day and ask how many fences they are going to try to jump? In a sense the ones with no insight are much sadder than the true masters…there is hope for them I suppose.
Yes, weird, isn’t it? Soon after I met my EUM he “mentioned” to me, in the passing, “I’m not very good at relationships”. It never occurred to me to ask him, ‘why not?’ Or even to ask him anything at all in response to that statement – what the hell was wrong with me! I remember just thinking, ‘well, who is… join the club!’
Wish now I’d told him to go practise on somebody else!
Now that I think about it he said loads of stuff that I should have heard as “abandon ship!” If I’d been listening to him instead of focusing on myself; trying to impress him and gain his affections, I would have heard him tell me quite clearly that he didn’t see himself having a committed relationship with me, or with anyone for that matter.
After a month or so I could tell he was keeping me at arms length and I asked him in an email if he was married… he sent me a very curt and snappy email back that made me feel as if I’d just made him a proposal! (I was, in fact, just worried, that he was keeping something important from me. I did email him back saying ‘it wasn’t a proposal, it was a question!’) He never answered the question directly – he wrote back, snappily, that he was ‘never going to marry anyone’. (I thought he was just being typically “male” and couldn’t possibly have meant that. Afterall, when he first ‘came on to me’ he told me he would like to get married and have children!
What a turn-around! If the cap fits… they’ll wear it! But I think we need to LISTEN – and take heed. The answer to the title of this blog is often staring us straight in the face, we are just too busy thinking of something else!
Yeah fearless its a real red flag when you start to think seriously about what have I got to do to impress him. I think the answer is, if being yourself doesn’t..its too much hassle and pain to do otherwise. These guys have evaluation sheets that you need to meet,criteria. Then when you meet it, they change the criteria.As you wisely say, its not about you really…its all about his needs,moods,penchants. We know now that it should be about ours also.
The problem with these men is that they don’t learn, they do the same over and over and over and they don’t care how this affects the woman. That is why NC is the only way to go to protect yourself, you can’t change him but you can change yourself – and the important person in this mess is you and not him.
Amen Astelle!! So true!!
I love, love, love your write ups! I really needed this site, especially tonight. I have been with Mr. Unavailable for 3 1/2 years (long distance). He kept “telling” me that he wanted to move forward and have a life together after his job was more stable, after he stopped paying child support (finished that in December), after he secured a new job, blah, blah, blah, blah!
A couple weeks ago I finally told him I was done (again-yes I kept going back to the empty promises of a “future”). I finally woke up and said enough. However, I have been having email banter back and fourth with him, that has only made me more angry with myself for allowing this to continue for so long.
He was lazy in the relationship. He had to be explained things that “typical” men in their 50’s should know. He seemed to do a lot of “flirt” talking, maybe to boost his ego, but I feel more so because to him that’s what I was—his 4/6 week booty call. He has become relentless with his pity me crap; “I can’t live without you, I can’t imagine you not in my life, I love you more than anyone, my days are empty with out speaking and communicating with you.” That’s too bad, because I am done waiting around for something that will never be more than talk and a dream.
After reading this site and feeling empowered (like I once use to be-before him) I have the self esteem to move on, not look back, and know that I deserve MUCH better! I have known that all along but I kept waiting for him to validate me, and listened to what he said versus what he was doing–which was NOTHING!
THANK YOU! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!!!!
Hi Karen, read your blog and can understand totally what your going through,you seem in a better place though, really encouraging to read, keep going. Remember what NML has said about ‘actions’, that was what finally got me free. We love ‘words’ and like you, the ‘can’t live without you’ scenario got to me for so long. However when I sat down in a quiet room and, I actually wrote down what specific actions he showed me, I was able to break free. For me it was co dependency. I was also culpable of allowing the slide. Tha anger at myself was really powerful and disabling for a while but then I started to channel it into positive ways, looking after myself as a prime objective. I ‘m in a different place now. Thinking of you Karen x
Thank you, Lesley! What was once “painful” for me, ie. not knowing what he was doing, thinking he was pursuing another woman, might find another to replace me, etc, I hope he does!! Because I know that he will do it to her as well. He is unable to make a commitment, period. He’s been divorced for 10 years (wife left him the week he found out he had cancer–always made me feel sorry for him), however, the marriage had been over with for years and they had not shared a bed the last 3 years of the marriage (he neglected to tell me that part, his ex did).
Anyway, I got another email from him this morning(his way of keeping communication going and thinking the door is still open), it said: “Do you think about me as much as I think about you? Time is being wasted”. Sure, now YOU’RE worried about time being wasted! Give me a break. Constant hoovering on his part. Of course, since we have been in this same place several times over the past year and half, he expects the same results from the same behavour, keep “saying” all the right things and she’ll come back. He is in for a rude awakening. I do believe he is beside himself because its not working this time. After all “it worked in the past”…but in the past I was hopeful, stupid and didn’t go with my gut as I should have. I wrote down many comments from this blog in a note book and re-read them last night when I went to bed and again this morning. EMPOWERING to say the least. I don’t need him to validate me, I NEED to validate me, and that is by moving on with my life and opening up for a relationship that is filled with mutual love, future and investment.
Oh, and Lesley, I sat down and wrote a list of all the positive things about him and the relationship, you wanna know what I realized?? Every “positive” thing I put on my list, had to do with how I felt about “him”, not what he did for me, or how he made me feel –those went into the negative list. Eye opening indeed!!
Karen – thank you!! I was so good in January – ignoring his emails and not writing back – then came – Aimee – I miss you- there is not one minute in the day that goes by that I don’t think about you. You probably hate me and I can’t blame you (true self appraisal?? I don’t think so). Please write me back and let me know you are ok please. Stupid me wrote back as I thought he was being real,cared and I had an upcoming surgery I was worried about. Same old same old – allowed myself to get pulled in again till the end of July. He did not show up for my mom’s funeral, my biopsy last year, my biopsy in July, forgot my bday this year and 2 yrs ago (Last yr we were in break up mode). However – he did bring me food after my surgery and beautiful flowers telling me how hot I was and then tried to back track and say can’t a “friend” send you flowers. Haha – oh my God – how dense have I been. Karen – block his emails. Mine are now going into delete land (no folders), I will never know when he is emailing me (that’s was my ego wanting them) so I will never see or be tempted to look and read. He will think I am getting them and not responding – YEAH!! I’m done – knew it when it went from my head to my heart the other day. 100% Done.
OMG! I have not been doing all that well with the NC! I have to say, I don’t have “feelings” for him any more, but I still want to know whats going on with him and I can’t figure out why! I should put his emails in the delete bin so I can’t see them when they come in. The funny thing, he is going to see a therapist next week, he wants to know why he is the way he is. I am SO curious to know what she tells him. A part of me hopes he can get help (not that I would ever go back to him) but I think he is too old to change his lying, cheating ways. I just don’t know why I can’t completely let go.
Just to clarify, in the past I would have forgiven him and moved on (hoping for a different out come). I know that will never happen, I know he will never be capable of loving me the way I deserve, I don’t think, no matter how much therapy he gets, he will ever find happiness (not for very long). He strung me along for 3 1/2 years, how he managed that I would still like to know. Honestly, for the first time since I met him, I can say I no longer love him or want a relationship with him, yet I do want to know whats going on his world…is that normal?? I think a part of me does want to know how quickly he replaces the woman of his dreams, the love of his life, and I know I shouldn’t care!!
Karen – I can’t answer your need to know about his life, but I can for me. I wanted to know if it was real for him, at this point who cares if it was or not – he treated me like crap and played lots of mind games. I was his “true companion” as well. I also know that by still wanting to know I was “hoping” – for what I don’t know anymore. I am also very hard on myself – thought it was all my fault he treated me this way (i.e. too needy cause my mom had died, etc.). God knows I have work to do on myself – but this was not all my fault – I did not make him who he is. I have to remember what his sister would say to me – (he likes to tell girls what they want to hear, he does not know a good thing when he’s got it, I’m afraid he’s just going to hurt you some more, this his s**t not yours, he’s done this to lots of girls). I have been doing self-growth for 30 years which has included therapy, etc. It takes a VERY LONG TIME to get better – 3 steps forward 1 back. I feel like I took 50 backwards with this one, but my mom’s friend who is a therpaist said remember with all the work you have done that you have probaly come forward 300 steps since HS, unfortunately he had not taken any since HS. I talked to the “old girlfriend” to get the truth – she says they’re just friends – yet she is spending nights and weekends at his house. God bless her – she did this dance with him 6 yrs ago – he’s all hers now.
OMG Aimee! Can you live next door and come over for coffee?! I know exactly what you mean…so many steps forward, then so many back. It kills me when it appears that nothing is bothering him. He “says” he is hurting, but if he is, there is no emotion in his words..like always, just words!
He is still doing his typical thing, pulling past people back into his life for attention (supply). I feel sick. I felt so good last week..I felt free of him. I just can’t believe that he can move forward as if nothing happened. He put up a profile on a dating site that I found (had no picture),,but I knew it was his. He DENIED it! Over and over and over. Yet I KNEW it was his profile. Since I know his email password, I went into his email (no I am not proud of this-but I had to know!) and saw his approved profile for the user name I thought was him. This was only the day after I told him he needed to get help because of all his lies. Yet he was telling me how heart broken he was, how I was the love of his life. Yeah..okay!! Yet you are on the dating site, “nope, not me!”, “that’s not MY profile”, “I’m hopeful that you can move past this and forgive me and if the only way you will continue talking to me is to say that it was mine then I will say it was, even though that profile is not mine”.
I have a question, for you Aimee, or anyone else. Did you ever feel that your ex referred to you or your relationship as if they were the only ones involved or that you weren’t really another person involved in the so called “relationship:? What I mean is, as an example, he said to me “I have lost a very good thing”…a good thing? “our” relationship, “I”, “we” were a “thing?” WHAT?!?! That, and I believe for him, it was all about the surface, the chemistry, nothing heart felt or real. He always makes reference to “the chemistry” he found with me…not “our chemistry” while in “our relationship”…do you see what I am saying? It just drives me crazy that he can say things like that! Then he said “I want to why, I want to know if this the way it is going to be, I want to know how to nip this in the bud before I hurt someone I love.”…as if he HAD NOT already???
I think I am trying to piece it all together..trying to figure out how I got in this place with him. I never saw it coming. I didn’t see how or when I allowed this “man” to take over my emotions, my intuitions, my feelings, my heart and my soul. I think back (often) to the beginning, and the flags I saw, the tilt your head moments when “something” just didn’t feel right. Yet, I ignored that. I forgave the lies, the cheating, everything! HOW did I ever end up with no spine, no back-bone, no self esteem?? That’s not ME!
Tonight, I feel HATE towards him. I am ANGRY. I guess its part of the healing process?? That’s not who I am! I am typically friendly with my ex’s. Just because we didn’t see things on the same page, feel the same way, doesn’t mean we have to stop communicating or stop caring about that person (in an adult type of break-up). Talk to me (Aimee) and others!!
Karen – Remember “Curiosity Killed the Cat”.!
The relationship was ALL on HIS TERMS. When we first started dating I thought I found a great guy that would communicate. He said that we had to be honest with eachother, work things through, MUTUAL terms. That we were BF and GF and he was monogomous (What a joke, Clinton!) The mutual never happened.
This guy had two surgeries on his neck and now lives in chronic pain – we took a “break” because of the “pain”, even me communicating “was it really the pain or were we dating, talking, sleeping with other people?” – NOO – it was just his pain. When we came off the break – a girl showed up to his Halloween Party – found out he was talking to her and trying to date her on “our” break – HIS TERMS ONLY. It was humiliating. The girl was surprised as was I cause I thought he was an adult at 47 and was honest – funny thing she and I have become friends – even on FB – I think that drove him crazy. They don’t want the “girls” to talk! Another thing that boggles me – imagine what he was like before the chronic pain – he’s a player big time.
He ALWAYS decided the depth and momentum of the relationship. He would tell his friends we were just friends and tell me we were in a relationship (of course found out later). I looked like the crazy girl to his friends. This last time when I broke up with him – I asked if he told his friends we were just friends – he said I didn’t tell them anything – I said of course not just let everyone GUESS where we stand including me. Problem is I did have a choice all along – the choice was to leave, I just didn’t want to cause I thought we were “soulmates and he just had intimacy issues”. Barf – I am so glad I am writing here (as well as journaling) it helps me to see it in black and white – YUCK!!!!!!!!
So – my curiosity made me look like a psycho – so be careful. I’ve talked to girls he’s tried to pick up, drove by his house to see if he was being honest, went through his phone, and last, talked to the “old GF that’s just friends” that is spending the night at his house. He called me psycho and is VERY angey I talked to the last one (of course she told him as she is probably trying to get the truth). In one of last emails he had the gall to say we haven’t even been dating – even after spending 4 days in the mountains, concerts, sleeping at his house. But I do have to say once I talked to her – I was done as well. I wanted the truth – I got it. Feel no need to know what he’s doing now, although my fear is he’ll live happily ever after – but that is just fear – my stuff that I have to work through.
I have to keep doing the reality checks – another thing his sister said was he lies – lies about stupid things. He even lies about his feelings. Hence the contradiction in his words and actions.
I told him once that it seems so easy for you as we were breaking up – and he stood there all smug and confident “I just hide it very well”. But he has moved on – God Bless her! I realize that he’s an alcoholic and is addicted to the painpills (and his Harem) more than I ever realized. Nothing like numbing the pain!
Remember we are going to go up and down – I have – but each day gets a little easier. I am getting my power back – YEAH!!
By the way – the old GF at his house now – a year ago he was laughing about her saying “She and her family thought I was going to marry her”. He’s sadistic – we are just objects.
Talk to you soon – boy this was a long one!!
Karen,
Let his happiness be his business and his problem from now on.
We always seem to want answers. We want to know why… the “why do you not want to be with me?” question.
I have was thinking about this very thing last night as I cringed about all the times I have asked my EUM to tell me why he doesn’t want to be with me, and I tried to remember what it was that I told guys who asked me these types of questions (perhaps different scenario though, as i never strung them along for years!)
I remembered, for example, just not taking their calls, making excuses for why I couldn’t see them… usual stuff.
I remembered also one young guy I worked with, who I was friendly with and who had a terrible crush on me. asking me if the reason I wouln’t go out with him was “because I was a manager and he was just an assistant’. I told him “of course that’s not the reason; I am not bothered about these sort of things”.
I think that answer then left him with the impression that what he feared was an obstacle to getting together with me was actually not one, so my answer, inadvertently, gave him hope and he continued to pursue me.
My answer was in fact an honest answer to his question: I hadn’t even thought of the difference in “rank” – because I hadn’t been thinking of ANYTHING at all!!
The real truthful answer to that boy would have gone more like this: “How the f**k do I know! I have never given it a moments consideration! Why would I? I do not have the answer because I have never thought of it as a problem – for me. And what difference does it make asking me questions; all I know is I am not interested in a relationship with you. I don’t care why not. I am just not. And asking me questions is not going to change any of the above.”
I think this is often the answer as it would, if possible, truthfully come from them.
Last tiem asked my EUM why he had still not put ‘two feet’ into the relationship he said one word and none other “fear”.
That was all I got. I think it was truthful. It made no sense to me at the time and I raged. It makse sense to me now. But he won’t step out of it either – and neither will I. That’s the problem. Two people. Neither one should hang on -yet neither one can commit to getting out. We cannot really blame him for his lack of commitmet to ending it when we seem to have exactly the same problem – if not even worse in that respect. He can’t do NC very well. But he’s better at it than we are!
Fearless, thank you! You made so much sense! I know I should not care, I try not to care, I don’t want to care! Yet,,in all honesty, I do; to an extent. I am so much further along than I once was. I will never go back, I don’t miss our routine of talking or spending time together. Yet, his “happiness” will never be what real happiness should be. I know I can have that. I know I want that. I know I deserve that. And one day…I will get that.
While I am working through the emotions of trying to figure out how I allowed this to happen, he has still been a big part of my life, I love his children to death (that’s a killer for me!). Our children got along great. He actually has great children (probably thanks to his ex-wife). But over the years, I have grown to love them, and vice versa.
However, right before coming here to read the posts, he sent me an instant message, which got pretty ugly (mostly by me). I don’t hold back what I think of him, his lies, his cheating, his being an ass clown. I told him “It is impossible to have a REAL authentic and true relationship with a liar, go away and leave me alone!” He said he was not giving up, he was going to seek professional help to see why he acts in this way and he is hopeful that one day we can resume our relationship. I informed him “my trust you will never win back. You destroyed that and for that reason alone (forget all the other reasons) I will never go back to you”..of course he got angry at that. He’s losing his grip and tried to twist it around on me. Typical! So from now on, NC!! No emails, no text, no instant message, no phone calls. I am done! I am dealing with my issues and moving forward. Never to go back again.
Thanks fearless, hugs to you!! I’m sure I will titter here and there, but that’s why I come here-for strength and support!!
Karen
I like what you have told him:
“It is impossible to have a REAL authentic and true relationship with a liar”
This is so true. For me it is the lies that are the most crushing., and my EUM does not seem to appreciate – or care – about the effect lies have. He aid to me once that if we ever got together for good, would I be able to trust him. I think they seem to see the problem as our lack of trust , where it is really a lack of trustworthiness in them. I am trusting. He is untrustworthy, and that is the problem. So I said to him that trust is earned by being trustowrthy, so you need to convince me that you will be trustworthy, not ask if I will ever trust you.
But he is a total fibber and this is onereason that a committed relationship with him is impossible to achieve. He fibs about everything and anything and doesn’t seem to see this as a problem! But he hates being called a liar – he sees red if I suggest he is not being truthful even though he knows that he is not. Weird.
Take care of yourself.
Hi Karen – I would love to have coffee! I’m in Denver, Co tho. I am going to reply later as I have an appointment – but I am still here. Talk to you soon!!
Last night, the penny dropped, the pieces of the puzzle came together and I finally understood how i was making myself crazy trying to get anything from my commitment phobic assclown. Having read this post and every other one on this site, it has all become clear, not just intellectually but absorbed into my soul. When he first rushed at me, he had “both feet in”, as you phrase it. His words and actions matched – he liked me and thought he wanted a relationship with me. Within 2 months, the words were the same but the actions no longer matched. He was beginning to have doubts, trying to manage down my expectations, trying to take back some early promises he had made. I, foolishly, ignored the warning signs and projected my feelings onto him. I would love enough for the both of us, I held onto the fantasy and believed he felt what I felt. By the end, he finally was forced to say outright he didn’t want the relationship but he wanted to be friends. I believed his words – that he cared about me and cherished me as a friend and tried to hold him to that, tried to force the IOU I thought that represented. What I didn’t see was that his actions again didn’t match his words. He wasn’t acting like a caring friend, he was just keeping his options open. Panicking and wanting to hold on, I began trying to change him – I demanded apologies when he hurt my feelings or ignored me, I gave lectures and lessons on respect. He refused to apologize, refused to hold himself accountable for his actions. By this point, his words and actions matched again, and they were screaming that he didn’t care for me or respect me, but I refused to see it. I would change him, fix him so that we could be happy and together. But some small amount of self respect remained and I just couldn’t handle his indifference or disrespect any more. I cut off contact. I did so, if I am honest, initially so that he would come to his senses and come running, but he didn’t. By this point, I was no longer giving him the ego strokes he had gotten out of the relationship and had in fact replaced them with harsh criticism of his behaviour. He only broke contact once, when he wanted a favor. I didn’t respond.
I now see the relationship, and him, for what they really are. I see my role and my accountability in things. I see I was trying to get care, love and validation from someone who wasn’t going to give it, despite his actions in the beginning. I see that I refused to hear him and thought I could change him, that I knew better. As a result, I continued my pain and suffering much longer than it needed to go on. From the moment he told me he could not give me what I wanted, I was responsible for any additional pain and yet I kept looking to him to make it stop, make it go away. Despite being an assclown in his behaviour and his flip flopping throughout the middle and end of the relationship, I was the architect of my misery. The good news is that I can now make it stop.
Thank you for helping me see all this. I might have gone mad if I hadn’t. You are absolutely right about relationship insanity – repeating things endlessly, looking for different results. Acceptance of what is, as it really is, is the only one to end the insanity.
Ditto Ditto Ditto – I finally told my AC 3 weeks ago that I was banging my head against a wall that was never coming down, that it was insanity, that I was in a deadend relationship, and that he was nothing but poison for me. Within 2 wks his old GF (from 6 1/2 yrs ago) who just broke up with her fiance (I was not suppose to be upset about their friendship) was sleeping in his bed. He kept doing the friend thing too – I just didn’t want to hear it – then I love you lets go to your cabin – lets be friends. I have been angry at myself for letting myself be treated this way, prolonging my own pain and boy did I. I am now trying to treat myself as I did before him and way better than him – work on myself, love myself, forgive myself, be patient with myself – BUT LEARN – I don’t ever want to do this again to myself – it is painful!
I haven’t posted here for a while but this is my tale, it proves the point I think.
We met over 7 years ago. Usual story, he ‘would never belong to one woman again’ after his wife had left him, I thought my love would change this. He was telling the truth, was with other women when I wasn’t around (it was long distance) and would not promise to stop this. We split up for 18 months, he got a new long distance love immediately but kept asking me to come to him. I interpreted this as a sign that we were meant for each other!
We met up he told me that the new girlfriend adored him but she was jealous and controlling. This time he had promised her that he would not sleep with anyone else and especially not me. It seemed like he was prepared to make more of a commitment to her than he had to me.
We then fell into bed and continued to do so for the next 4 years, he continued to lie to his girlfriend. I didn’t want it to finish but ended it 3 months ago when she moved here to live with him. He then told me that I must never speak to anyone about what had been going on, and that I was ‘not to try to destroy his relationship’. I was furious that my feelings meant nothing to him and we haven’t spoken since.
Last week the girlfriend went away for a few days, 3 days later he was out in public with a new woman. So much for the commitment. His only commitment is to getting his own needs met.
Try as you might you will never press their conscience button because there isn’t one.
Hi notsosadthing,
I remember when you first came on here talking about your relationship with this man. I am so glad to see that you have come to where you are now-congratulations. You have learned so much I can tell by what conclusions you have come to in regards to this man’s issues. That it’s not your fault he is the way he is, you can’t fix him and you don’t want him anymore. What you had with this man was the perrfect receipe for a dead end relationship An broken eum and a woman who thinks she can fix him and save him by loving him enough and wanting to be the exception to the rule. I been there and done that. And I too learned that it was a big waste of energy. He IS broken beyond repair. He was broken when you met him and he had no intentions of ever doing any of the work he needed to do to get over his wife leaving him (takes no responsibility for himself) nor deal with any other issues he had within himself. He will just keep bouncing around like this for the rest of his life-until he realizes that he needs to make a change and actually has the courage to do it. As long as he can get by as he is -he won’t change.
As for us- Isn’t it great to be finally free from all that pain of a futile dead end, esteem draining relationship! Cheers to us!
Peace
Dawn
Hi Dawn thanks for your support. Wish I could say that I feel peaceful but it’s only been a week since I sent the final ‘you are lower than a dog’ text. When I saw him with yet another woman I saw red!
I think some of us can put their bad behaviour in a box in our heads and sort of ignore it (after all he’s been cheating with me for years so I know what’s he’s like), but seeing it in the flesh was too much.
It hit all the buttons, rejection, reality and rage. So now I’m just furious most of the time. It will pass. Peace to you too.
I was involved with my (married) AC/EUM for three years—year one all wonder and fun. Im divorced and to me it was like coming alive again. Year Two—the words and actions didn’t match (before I had been “changing his life and helping his realize what he wanted” in Y2 he really figured out how to have his cake and eat it too). I refused to see what was right in front of me. All the things he had said about relationships had been true! (It was a case of can’t say I hadn’t been warned!!) Then by Y3 I just felt sick….and used…and ashamed. I FINALLY broke it off last week (I caught him in another lie and well, that was it)–going into Day 10 of NC—feel like I am detoxing from him. The pain is still there (along with the stupid notions of sending him a note I know! I wont!!) along with the embarassment and shame.
Reading this post I realized that for him and other ACs “Love is never enough” because they dont want love-its deep and messy and you have to think of the other person. They are self centered children who want it all on their terms and to them they do love our good open hears, our love but they hate our emotions, our true needs, and our need to be our own person (not just a toy there for them to use on demand)….Thank you Natalie and everyone who posts here—in my shame I thought I was alone but know I am not and I draw strength from all of you!!!
@Chi Town Kitty,
I can relate to everything you said here. You’re absolutely right about their inablity to handle a real relationship with all the real emotions and feelings that go along with it. If they were they’d work on themselves and with their present relationship instead of avoiding it and looking for someone else to escape into an affair with and stay married. . I to refused to see what was right in front of me-lost in my own illusions. I say they are cowards and much more worhtless things. Let’s count our blessings that we are out of these dead end relationships with men who will only ever care about themselves.
Peace
Dawn
My screen name says it all. I have read this post and don’t know what to do. I began a “relationship” with a guy at work. He chased hard, and certainly acted and sounded like he wanted a committed relationship. No kissing and no sex but lots of physical contact. Two months later he begins backing away and says he wants to stay friends. I was very hurt, and felt very rejected. I tried the friend thing for exactly 1 week and couldn’t do it. I felt demoted and demoralized and hurt. I really still wanted the relationship. I went no contact for 2 months, telling him I had to get over him before I could really consider a friendship. With two exceptions, both work related, he respected my no contact rule. When he showed up at work after 2 months, I was still really hurt and confused. I think he’s an assclown (he has all the traits listed on your site) and I noticed that despite what he said about us being best friends, he couldn’t care less about talking to me or reconnecting in any way. I feel completely screwed over by this guy but reading some of the comments on this site, I am not sure what he is. We never slept together but I felt we were in a relationship. He said we were as well, but then when he changed his mind, he acted as though it had never happened. I don’t want this man in my life but have to work with him every day. I can’t even bring myself to say hi or talk to him. At the moment, he doesn’t appear to want to talk to me either, although he has tried. I have never been this confused or distraught about a guy. I just never understood what he was doing or what was happening in the relationship, just says it all, I suppose. Is the no contact rule too harsh for this type of relationship? I don’t seem to be able to handle much else, but feel a little childish and dramatic, refusing to talk to him. We didn’t sleep together and I get that a guy is allowed to change his mind. He just didn’t handle it very well.
Wow, this guy couldn’t even commit to kissing you.
You describe it as a relationship but I don’t see it as that. I certainly don’t see it as friendship. And that ‘s all you have to know. You WEREN’T in a relationship. You AREN’T friends. So there is no need for the two of you to hang out or have intimate conversations.
Limit your contact to what is necessary to your job. Maybe even consider a new job.
When a situation confuses you like this, the solution isn’t to keep hanging around trying to figure it out, the solution is to RUN AWAY.
Time and distance heals. What doesn’t heal is hanging around for more of the same.
Confused – I feel for you. Sounds like a very serious commitment phobe. I suspect there may still be an ex somewhere in the picture he isn’t completely over. I think I know what you are going through – you feel like maybe you were “auditoned” for the role of girlfriend but never got the part. It was more than friends but less than a whole relationship, right? Started off great but never developed? He has a long history of short, not serious relationships? He’s a little too old to be playing this game? I think you may have a truly unique member of the assclown species – someone so damaged, so hurt he can no longer even try to get into relationships. Chances are he knows enough about himself to know he was going to hurt you. Because you work together, he probably thought the no kissing,no sex thing would keep it from getting too serious, but things developed emotionally anyway (to the extent they can with assclowns). When it all began to feel too much, at least for him, he ran. Because he never “got into a real relationship with you”, – no kissing, no sex – he didn’t feel he had to get out of it, so you never got a real goodbye. They all throw out the friend line in the end as a way of making themselves feel less like the assholes they are being.
You are well rid of him – it was never going to turn into a real relationship. It is also never going to be a real friendship – this guy sounds just too broken. Let it go, let him go and protect yourself at work. Silence is all he deserves.
Take care of you. You deserve so much better than this.
Excellent analysis & advice.
Wow – I know that hurts – rejection has been hard for me at different times in my life. I thought I was done with assclowns 20 years ago – but then this guy I had a huge crush in HS looked me up after 28 years (didn’t have any assclowns in between). He came on all hot and heavy, even trying to kiss me the 2nd time I saw him (not dates). I had lots of red flags and really believe that I would have left sooner had my mom not died after 2 months of seeing him. He did all the same things – “we should have gotten together in HS, we’re soul mates, singing love songs that I was his true companion, etc, etc”, by the way in HS we made out at a party, the next party I thought we would be together and he got together with another girl. Also – now that he and I have just broken up (2 1/2 yrs later with lots of breaks in between) he has now befriended this same girl on Facebook. Some people never change. I am disappointed in myself as I have done lots, I mean lots of soul searching in my life. I am sorry you have to work with this guy, I am looking forward to the time and distance as I always get better – it’s when I engage with him – I spiral down. Keep reading the book, blogging and start doing the work we need to do on ourselves. Quite honestly – I would rather be alone and lonely then with this assclown – work on me, love me, and have a better opportunity to find a real, honest man, in touch with himself and his values. Keep your chins up – and look elsewhere. (Advice for myself as well!)
Thanks for sharing all your stories ladies!!! I absolutely LOVE reading about all these women who have climbed out of a very dark and destructive hole and are now on solid ground in the light again. I am so glad to read so many wonderful accounts of how we have gone about acheiving this. We are couragous, strong, capable people who take responsiblity and control for our lives.
Thank you all so much!!!!
Natalie, i can’t thank u enough. U basically opened my eyes. I’m so happy that you’re doing this for us and sharing your experiences and knowledge. And also many thanks for all the comments you guys, I really really do appreciate it.
Well, I’m 25 now and I’ve never ever been in a healthy relationship. They were all unavaliable. It took me this long to realise it.:) I know i have daddy issues (my mum and dad separated when i was 6 and my dad is actually diagnosed with a narcissistic personality disorder, that might explain some things). But I’m so ready to move on and take care of that little girl inside of me, that needs to validate herself in all the wrong places;)
Again, to Natalie and all of you here, you’re doing a great job:))))
It’s a bit funny, but I’m actually proud of myself that i’m finally starting to get it.
p.s. I’m from Slovenia, so i apologise for all the grammar mistakes and everything;)
xoxo
I have a Gf that was in a similar situation. she wanted this man to give her a more serious relationship than what she had and quite naturally came up with all kinds of excuses as to why he couldn’t(to scared because of relatiobships in the past etc..).
Come to find out that for at least the past tqo years out of their 7 yr involvement he concealed the fact that he had a live in GF.
This guy is true Ahole and deserves everything he gets and then some. To be so selfish as to know you have someone at home(No matter how bad or good it is) and to be sleeping around with other women knowing that you will never be able to produce the goods is very cold hearted at the very least.
The sad part with these men in general is that they always seem to come back when they either “need” something or something goes horribly wrong at home or nothing could be wrong but reach out to see if the door is still open but regardless of the reason they all seem to come back sooner or later.
Well i have written recently on another of Natalie’s great postings but when my what i think is an EUM man broke up with me after a 3 year relationship – yes, i think he may have had others on the side although i was not aware of them, he said he was breaking up with me for no big reason just a lot of little ones! But when i pushed him to try to get to what these ‘little ones’ were, he was evasive and could not answer. Personally i think he broke up with me because i was no fool and a stronger person mentally then he was used to being with. I never let him walk over me and stood my ground a lot of times. Maybe, i was too confrontational for him as he is a weak character with hardly any opinions on anything and can be boring on a lot of occasions.
I ask my self how i had this 3 year relationship with him at all but i think i was flattered as i had at the time just lost a hubby who sadly died amd was still grieving. He knew this, of course, and the way he treated me towards the end of the relationship (July this year) was appalling. He told me he was a ‘changed’ man and did not want a relationship with me anymore, particularly no physical relationship and said he wanted to be friends (why do they do that, want to be friends when breaking up with you) – all that when we had had such a healthy sexual relationship which he said was superb and the best he had ever had! He spoke to me like you would speak to a dog with a face set in stone as if i was something he found under his shoe. I had never seen this side to him at all otherwise i would have left him long ago. He left me totally confused by his words and manner and i am slowly coming to terms with the break up as i did fall for this man and although he often said he loved me, he once asked me just what love was! Looking back he is a totally Jekell & Hyde personality – i wonder if he is classed as an AC – anyone?
Good sex doesn’t equal a good relationship. What I mean is just because you have a good sexual connection with someone doeesn’t mean that you are meant to be with this guy and it doesn’t mean that he is capable of being in a commited relationship with you or anyone else. I think we get the impression that because the sex is good that it means that the rest of the relationship will naturally be good and evolve into a commited and healthy attatchment. It doesn’t mean that he loves you and it doesn’t mean that you love him. I think we often confuse sexual connection and the feelings that it creates & we interupret those feelings as we are in love with them and that they are in love with us. There’s alot more ingredients involved in love than that. That’s what i have learned.
There is so much truth to this until I could just scream! Too many times, people walk into relationships knowing what they want in the first place. Too many stipulations early on is a huge red flag and a turn off. I mean, how we going to get to know each other if you’re dictating the entire relationship from start to finish? Shut up and date, or be gone! Poof!!!
In my opionion what we are doing when we want to “fix” a man we are in a relationship with is really just us trying to control them. We are trying to get someone to change the way they think, feel and behave to match up to what our expections and desires of them are. They don’t see it as us trying to help them -they see it as us trying to control them. We think we are trying to help them when in fact we are trying to control them. Trying to control another person’s way they think, feel and behave in a relationship is a waste of time. If they wanted to be any different they would change themselves. They are the way they are before we even met them. Thinking that we can help them by telling them how they need to behave never works. It only creates more resisitance. We shouldn’t have to teach someone how to be in a relationship. If they don’t respond or behave in a way that is healthy and conducive to having a relationship that works for both parties involved then instead of trying to change someone we need to wake up and smell the coffee. Don’t hang around trying to “fix” him because it isn’t going to work and we are only setting ourselves up for more disappointment. That’s what I have learned from my expierence. Yes, stand up for ourselves in the relationship and ask for what we need but don’t expect to get it because people will only give you what they want to give, and only what they are capable of and willing to give you.
@Dawn: Agreed…I can actually see ex AC’s POV now that I was trying to manipulate him (even if subconsciously, and looking at it in the worst spirit possible!) by showering him with affection and support. This seemed repulsive to him because it wasn’t deserved, and it felt controlling instead of calm and natural.
In relation to the change issue, the faulty thinking is that one that believes that they will change for me, and if they won’t, then why not? My ego had a tough time with that, but thankfully comprised only a very short phase. I think something NML wrote helped nip it in the bud, about how she hears and sees all these women ask, why won’t this guy – who is in the habit of being an impulsive, fearful, victim-minded, user – change for me, when I am so beautiful, kind, attentive and smart? The second part of the question just does not matter. They simply don’t link in any logical or practical sense.
I think what gets women ruffled, is the issue of willing v capable. Someone’s limitations in terms of capability are easier to accept than someone’s limitations in terms of their willingness. One feels a lot more personal. But, I think what needs to be recalled is that they are not separable: someone’s perception of you – and therefore their willingness to commit – is shaped by their capabilities (which is a function of their history and self-esteem).
In any case, you’re right – people change for themselves, not for others.
This is very well said. The concept of someone needing to be both willing AND able to confront defeating/destructive behavior in relationships is crucial to getting over the EUM experience.
My experience is that an EUP may want to change, even see the need for change, but really may not be very capable. I am guessing that resistance to behavioral change is one of the most common and thus hardest of habits to break.
@ Aphrogirl-
Amen to that!!!
Thankyou Elle the distinction between willingness and capability that you make is enlightening for me at present. Also the fact that we get caught up, saddened by how personal it feels at the time. Your post has helped me a lot tonight. Lesx
@ Elle-Glad you can relate to what I said. I love being able to share what I have learned with others and see just how much it has made them think about their own expierence and then expand on it with their own thoughts that where provoked. I agree with what you said also about our faulty thinking when we beleive that he will change for us, and if so why not? And we mistakenly start wondering to ourselves -“Hey-there must be something wrong with me and that he won’t change for me”. SO our ego takes a hit until we realize in fact that isn’t the reason why he won’t change for me and it isn’t OUR fault that they are limited.
Totally true when you said- “I think what gets women ruffled, is the issue of willing v capable. Someone’s limitations in terms of capability are easier to accept than someone’s limitations in terms of their willingness. One feels a lot more personal. But, I think what needs to be recalled is that they are not separable: someone’s perception of you – and therefore their willingness to commit – is shaped by their capabilities (which is a function of their history and self-esteem). In my expierence my being able to see that and accept he was not capable nor willing, and that the realtionship is a dead end and it would never be any different. I wasn’t being rejected it’s not my fault that he is the way he is.It took me a long time to figure that out but it was the key to my letting go and moving on and stop hoping against hope that it would or could be anything more than a dead end relationship. I am forever thankful for that lesson I learned. To all the ladies who learned from this and “get it”-keep up the good work! We are learning some priceless stuff here. Keep on sharing your expierences, discoveries and stories. We all can learn from it.
Peace
Elle- Briliantly put and a thought I too had had the other day. I finally saw that what I was doing wasn’t loving or helpful, as I perceived and intended it, it was controlling and disrespectful. The final three weeks of the relationship was me endlessly telling him how what he had said was disrespectful and hurtful and asking for apologies. I thought I was creating boundaries and expressing my need for respect. Now I see that if someone has to change who they are to make me stop feeling something, that isn’t fixing, that’s controlling. It doesn’t excuse or justify his behaviour but I can now see why he didn’t respond to it very well. Much like Natalies video on how what we think of as “unconditional love” gets interpretted as “desperation”, what we do to “fix” them gets interpretted as “control”. It is scary to think that, in these cases, the assclowns might actually be correct. Food for thought.
I don’t know if I’d call them correct and I guess one could argue that you have to respect the ass in any assclown. But I think there is a fine line here about considering oneself controlling or disrespectful when wanting to work on or fix a problem in a relationship.
Asking to work together to change something is a valid part of compromise needed in any healthy relationship of mine. Many old happily married couples have told me how much work they have done to learn to love in harmony.
In any relationship where there is a sincere desire to make it work, both parties have to be free to communicate what one finds hurtful or disrespectful without being accused of anything. Both parties also have to listen and take action to correct behaviors and attitudes that are damaging the relationship.
Only an assclown will want to do no work ( passive aggressive control) and then turn around and call you needy or controlling because you ask for something.
In healthy relationships bringing up a problem will yield something like a sincere ” Oh I am sorry, I really did not mean to hurt you…” maybe with an explanation and certainly combined with a real attempt to improve the sore spot in the relationship.
Thats healthy. With the AC, I missed the fact that I was involved in such an unhealthy relationship until I finally asked for respect for my very different needs, and in return I saw that he truly has little care or sincere respect for my feelings nor much of a desire to even work with me.
Maybe it was that way from the beginning and I thought he cared, since he said he did, and that we could thus work and fix the trouble spots. I kept asking, he kept indicating he wanted to try and I did not know for sure until the end how very unwilling he was to work with me.
And that boils down to the fact that he had no desire to have a committed relationship with me. When I finally understood all this, I did not have a desire to have any relationship with him. But there was a very long period of confusion in between.
aphrogirl – Very wise words. I just reread NML’s post on normalizing bad behaviour and I think I may be guilty of that When dealing with a real assclown (and that is unquestionably what this guy is), you begin to feel crazy and have a hard time figuring out what is real and what isn’t. I shouldn’t have been afraid to ask for what I wanted and, if it had been a healthy relationship, I should have been able to say that I was hurt by something he said and expect an apology. It has taken me almost three months to realize one is never coming and will never come, either because it will never dawn on him to give it or because he doesn’t care about how I feel. Either way, it was never going to be a relationship built on care and respect. I may have been trying to change him into giving me respect, and that was were I was wasting my time and energy, but I still have to hold him accountable for his refusal to respect my feelings. Tough not to get things twisted when dealing with ACs.
This is by far the best post. I have been reading down to the latest comment. Almost 6 months no contact(me fully NC and him calling me every other month; down to just last Sunday night to be exact) I must say that I feels so good to be ASS CLOWN FREE! Reading these stories all similar in so many ways confirms that Ass clown unavailable men are just what they are. Him calling me leaving his nonconvincing message simply meant nothing. Glad I have been delivered from that insanity. Once you reach acceptance that nothing will ever change because you’re involved with someone’s that’s incapable of change or committment to anyone period! If they do break NC its completely non related to being a changed man. Somebody made a very interesting comment. Time and distance heals. What hasn’t healed just hangs around for more of the same.
Nice to know that when my mind is messing with me I can go here to get it back on straight, also I keep reading the book. I just began my no contact – lots of really mean emails between the two of (which I am ashamed of). Mine stopped over a week ago and his continue straggling in – I have now blocked his emails (will completely disappear instead of wind up in some folder) and have blocked his number from calling both my phones. Now the road to recovery that should have started 2 1/2 years ago – ughhhh – yes I stayed way too long. I know that I have lots of work to do on me – but please remind me that I did not make this guy who he is. It’s amazing how powerful I think I am – joke, but no joke.
Aimee,
reading the posts on this site and NML’s blogs will remind you, as often as you like, that he was like that before you met him, like that when he was with you, and will continue to be like that long after you are gone! It’s got nothing to do with you. When I realised that, I found it easier to take it less personally.
Athough I find now that this ‘gain’ has been replaced by a deep sense of hopelessness, or, perhaps more correctly, helplessness, because I realise I exert(ed) no influence whatever over my relationship with him – I feel like a pawn in a chess game being picked up and dropped by a robot! And I sometimes feel it would just be easier to be just plain hurt and to TAKE IT PERSONALLY!!
Good luck.
I agree with Fearless, there’s nothing to be ahsamed of. You’ve learned from the mistake and you’re moving on – that’s what you should be focusing on.
I have just moved my EUM in the the Assclown category, because intitially i dumped him because he was ignoring me (after i told him i don’t like to be ignored) he then did this whole song and dance to get me back, then dumped me two weeks later – SO that he could dump me two weeks later (and get a shag in the meantime). I feel really stupid sometimes, but then i remember that i am now rejecting him and his pathetic, assclown ways. He asked to be friends and i rejected that too. I have learned from this and, even though i still miss him sometimes (grrrr!), i am proud of how i’m acting NOW.
I love this site. It always gets my head screwed back on straight when i start to feel down or doubt myself.
@minky
Congratulations girl on what you have acomplished-growning every day-atta girl! That’s right-be proud of yourself!
Thank you so much for this posting! I have really struggled to remove myself from a relationship with a man who I have come to know as a EUM. When we first met he was, for what its worth, very unexpectedly wonderful. I took my time in getting to know him, paced things and around month 4 I fell in love after a romantic getaway. Shit hit the fan when we came back, his last single mate and roomie got married and then he became moody and then the next week he says he is moving back toward home for family pressures and doesn’t want to get more attached to me (boo-hooing all the while). Then he insists on still wanting to see me. Dumb me I go against my cardinal rule for love and lo and behold we have been playing hot/cold for 4 months now. Turns out his move is still delayed by issues with job transfer, etc. No effort to get back together, but he still called and wanted to play house every weekend. I know I held in there because I felt he was just placed in a hard spot by family and we hadn’t dated long to make decisions like that. but now I see that the wedding was probably a trigger and that really this was probably an excuse to avoid having to make any committed decision, as he is still here and after almost 10 months together he doesn’t want to call me a gf again.I see he still constantly hates conflict of any kind tho he is the cause of a lot of the drama. he gets mad, shuts down and deflects, blames me and has feigned amnesia of saying things or doing things. he can’t commit but he chases when i get mad and one week blows up my phone w/ texts then the next nada. Every 2 weeks or so he goes cold then back he comes for another 2 or 3. I’m glad to see him for what he is , tho i still do mourn what was there in the beginning. part of me wishes I can still figure him out but he wont talk to me and tell me what he feels. too bad he did what Natalie said, and completely sabotaged and incinerated all the good memories we had when he felt afraid of being vulnerable.
I know so many people that have being in this situation, time and time again they have hit there heads hard. They just never learn, the signs are right there infront of them, but I guess they always hold out for some form of hope.
I think its hard though when someone puts out a front for months until you fall in love, then they pull out the rug. It’s manipulative and I don’t think you can always fault the victim for being initially totally lost by the jackyl/hyde behavior.