Now I’m not saying that I’m not these things but there were other things that I was being and doing that were counterproductive to me forging a successful relationship (emotionally unavailable, unrealistic ideas about relationships, commitment issues, thought I was being funny but likely came across as sarcastic etc), plus all of those things that I was saying about myself has nothing to do with being 1) relationship smart, or 2) the wider picture of my past issues.
How you see yourself and your contribution in the relationship may not be real or accurate. Even if it is, the likelihood is that if you have become used to saying and believing certain things about yourself, you may be ignoring things that do create problems for you.
Now I’m not saying that my exes weren’t a pain in the bum, but when I had an honest conversation with myself (something I recommend everyone should do) a few years back and adapted my relationship habits, in all honesty, I was all of the things that I said I was, but I too contributed to why the relationship did not work, and by catering to the dysfunction, at times I enabled poor behaviour.
When we have a pattern of being in dubious relationships, we get very good at believing our own hype, listing off qualities, and dodging the bullet of looking too closely at other ‘qualities’ that may be negatively impacting on the relationship.
I receive emails all the time telling me how they gave a guy everything that he could need and ever want. Or the ‘I’m a great woman. I’m smart, I own my own home, understanding, sweet, compassionate…’ etc. The more they tell me about the relationship, various things that happened, and what each party has said, what becomes clear is that they may well be all of the things that they said, but by the same token, the story they are sharing shows that they too contributed to why the relationship didn’t work, or why they are unhappy.
Here’s the thing: you cannot decide what someone needs.
Much like when you have been involved with an assclown or Mr Unavailable who does things on his terms and tries to make out that it’s what you want and need, it doesn’t feel very good.
The inclination when in relationships is to look at what you believe you have to offer and what you believe you are, and what you think you’d need and be happy with and then deduce what they need on that basis.
This is not to say that what you have to offer is not valuable but if it is not valued and you’re blinded because you’re focused on what you need to give, you don’t grasp what they need and want. When we put aside our own views and find out what the other person’s agenda is and what they need and want, it’s actually a golden opportunity to work out if this is something we want to be involved in.
The disconnect arises because you’re not both on the same page and find it difficult to step into the other person’s shoes. In the typical ‘relationship’ with an assclown or Mr Unavailable, one of you (that’s you) is focused on what you want to give, often expending serious energy trying to prove that what you’re giving is of value, and the other party is focused on what they don’t want to give, but getting excellent return on little investment as they enjoy the overspill that provides the fringe benefits of a shag, an ego stroke, and a shoulder to lean/whine on.
In this situation, when you provide those fringe benefits and anything else they need, you get annoyed because you need more than what is on offer and so can’t fathom why they don’t want more, and keep trying to give more in the hope that they eventually reciprocate what you need. Of course…you end up running on empty.
But even in a relationship that doesn’t involve a guy that’s resistant to commitment but is struggling, you will find that there is a disconnect that creates conflict when you’re not meeting one another’s needs but keep telling one another (or yourselves) that each should want and need what the other is giving.
I see it all the time. Two people with the potential to have a great relationship can’t make it work because instead of understanding what the person needs, they give what they think the other person needs based on what they have to give, sometimes even telling the other person what they need.
A real life example is I know a couple whose husband decided that she needed freedom because she’s a free spirit. Not sure where he got that idea from, as she’s not a free spirit and in fact needed totally different things. She didn’t want to be left unattended – she wanted to be attended to.
Of course when one or both of your needs aren’t being met and It becomes very wearing when one or both of you is saying that you’re not happy, or that you’re needs aren’t being met, or that you want more, or that you’re ‘failing’, after a while, you lose confidence in one another that you can meet each other’s needs and where you were once compatible, you become incompatible. Or maybe you weren’t compatible in the first place…
But…nobody, and I mean nobody, male or female, responds well to being continuously told where they are failing and not meeting another person’s needs.
This is how, for instance, a lot of women end up engaging in Women Who Talk (and Think) Too Much syndrome, where the consistent voicing of concerns, frustrations, anger, wants, needs, disappointments etc via discussions, arguments, Defining the Relationship talks, masks inaction.
If you’re involved with someone who typically wants to do things on their terms and is resistant to commitment and being fully engaged in the relationship, they are the type of person that believes that if things were really that bad and that you’re really not that happy, you would go. The more talking you do, the less they believe that you’re going to take action.
What this all means is that you have a choice: change tack and stop the talking, or get out.
While you may think it’s an option to stay and try to extract change, you’re creating a serious breeding ground of negativity. After a while, any conversations about the relationship are likely to be met with a wall or conflict, especially if when you express how you feel or discuss the relationship, it tends to result from something negative.
This is why I warn of the perils of also suffering with I Can Change Him syndrome and playing Florence Nightingale to the Walking Wounded of this world in my ebook Mr Unavailable & The Fallback Girl – it seems easier to stay and try to get a return on your emotional investment, but you’re trying to force the hand of change and it consistently suggests that you are not happy with them ‘as is’ and are dissatisfied. It’s not to suggest that they don’t have things that ‘should’ change, but people will only change what they want to and you may be prescribing and expecting change that doesn’t ‘work’ for them, plus it’s not up to you to decide what should change, even if you believe you know better.
Back in part two
Your thoughts?
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……”often expending serious energy trying to prove that what you’re giving is of value, and the other party is focused on what they don’t want to give, but getting excellent return on little investment as they enjoy the overspill that provides the fringe benefits of a shag, an ego stroke, and a shoulder to lean/whine on”.
NML couldn’t of said it better myself, after almost 6 months of NC I’ve come to realize that was our relationship. Its amazing how when you read it in black and white its like an “Aha” moment and you realize that you knew it all along.
I think most of us know that there is no use in trying to get someone to change, they won’t unless they want to. And that’s where the frustration comes from, we would rather they change than us. Somethings are non-negotiable when it comes to change but I think for myself I wanted what I thought was the “perfect” relationship and it obviously wasn’t for him. Was I wrong in my thinking who knows he never wanted to talk about it anyway.
I have always believed it takes two to make or break a relationship, any relationship so yes it vital to see what contributions you’re making or not making just like it is for the other.
Yes, me too. I gave out serious amounts of energy being the best girlfriend I could. I used to give Ed a massage every time we met, cook for him, wait on him, and pander to his every whim. He was good at saying what he needed so I was on the right track with the giving. But, when I requested the same eg a massage he’d do it for 2 minutes or even say he didnt know how to (without trying and I taught myself on him). One day I asked him to peel some spuds, he said that when he came to mine it was to relax and not to do jobs, when I replied ‘is this a care home then’ ? he said ‘something like that love’. Finally he left his wife, instead of coming to me, he zoomed off to another girlfriend who was also waiting in the wings, she must have given longer massages than me. He still wants his care-home visits to me, no chance, he’s shameless.
I have to say that 2 months of no contact has given me clarity at last. I was a serious overgiver, he was a serious serial ‘taker/user’. When I was in it I couldnt really see it, now I’m out of it and still reading this site, I can see it all for what it was.
Thanks Natalie for all your help.
Distance always gives objectivity and now you see how your over generosity was being abused and you were not in a mutual *anything* relationship. You were being used and now you realise that you should not allow yourself to be treated in this manner.
You are right MaryC that it takes two to make or break a relationship. We contribute to the ups and downs of one. I think it’s important to recognise when our preconceived expectations and ideas are not being met and reconcile that with the reality. It may be that the reality is actually better than what you thought or you learn that this person is not for you, but either way it’s real. Sometimes we’re more focused on getting the relationship that we profess to want, rather than being in the now learning what we have.
I too am a big overgiving, but I didn’t realize it at the time — Sometimes, I catch myself doing it.
What I didn’t get at the time was my expectations when I was giving too much. Was I doing it out of the kindness of my heart or was I expecting that when i did it, he would reciprocate by giving me his love and fideility?
Even right now, i catch myself doing it. I’ve had 3 dates with this guy and I was suppose to see him this Friday, but he had to cancel due to illness and being on strong medication. Anyway, in the back of my mind I actually considered going over to his place to try and take care of him. Part of my need to take care of him was the fact that early on he had mentioned that he didn’t want me to take what we had too seriously. So, really my intention to go over to his place to care for him was my need to make him see that I’m a good person and perhaps his stance on me and our “relationship” would change.
Well guess what. Come this Friday, I’m not going to offer my “services”. If he wants to get together, the ball is in his court. He’s a big boy and can ask. And if he never calls, then I’ll be fine. I may be disappointed, but I certainly won’t die.
Thanks Natalie.
You are right — we have to be honest with ourselves about our own failings/weaknesses before we go and blame a relationship’s demise all on the guy.
Takes two to make it work, takes two to make it not work.
This — But…nobody, and I mean nobody, male or female, responds well to being continuously told where they are failing and not meeting another person’s needs. — is so very true.
I wish more of my married friends paid attention to that!
.-= Kat Wilder´s last blog ..Someone to watch over me =-.
What I’m about to say will probably be very unpopular but I reckon that “overgiving” is just as manipulative and controlling as blowing hot and cold. People who want to change other people because they think they know better are just as bad as people who will stay in a relationship for an ego stroke, to keep an option open or simply because they don’t have the guts to leave. Just like all the mr and mrs Unavailable, people who blame their unhappiness on an unwilling partner are guilty of shrinking away from taking full responsibility of their own actions.
I totally agree.
Looking back on my failed relationships, the truth was I was with guys I just didn’t like or respect very much in the first place. And I have to ask myself what that was about. Maybe wanting and needing to feel superior? Too afraid to put myself iwth an equal?
It may not have been a conscious thing but the points you have made will no doubt play into this cycle. The unfortunate thing is that by choosing people like this who then go on to not value you, you end up wondering how the hell someone like ‘them’ cannot want and value someone like ‘you’ which in turn then makes you think that there must be something really wrong with you. It’s important to get out of your uncomfortable comfort zone.
what you have to say isn’t unpopular. Knowing what i know now, when I look back at my past relationship habits, I overgave quite a bit to get my partner to see what he wasn’t seeing yet and if he didn’t reciprocate, I’d work even harder and of course it failed miserably. I recognize it now.
I also have to say that lately Natalie, your posts seem to come in when i’m going through something similar. Coincidence? I think not.
Thanks for your comment MC and it’s good to see that you recognise what is happening. Maybe I’m psychic 😉 Joking! But I do have an awareness of the possible stages that people are at and try to tap into those.
It may be unpopular but you are right. Overgiving is just another way of giving with expectations. Many people think that it’s impossible to give without expectations but actually, it’s not. We cannot be and do things with the idea being that because in our minds we’re being and doing these things that the other person must do as we expect and be grateful for it. They may not value it but you’re also controlling with giving. Thanks for your honest thoughts.
I have been thinking about what is being said about the taking and the giving, the boundaries, indecision, hot and cold behaviour etc. The point I would like to make is after two marriages, live in boyfriends, numerous dates, I have come to the conclusion that some people are just plain spoiled, point blank, from being over pampered by family, lovers, friends or all three. They are so used to taking in relationships or maybe have never learned to give or giving doesn’t interest them. Also these people frequently don’t know what or who they want due to the fact that they get too much of a good thing from too many people all their lives. One can set all the boundaries and try to call all the shots until you are blue in the face and it won’t make any difference no matter which way you turn. On the other hand with a mate who isn’t spoiled and is naturally giving and loving it isn’t even necessary to set rules and boundaries or even think about them. Giving is a two way street, and when it’s not, well, as you’ve been saying Natalie, one must get out and find a street going in both direstions. There are too many spoiled selfish individuals and we have only ourselves to blame for spoiling them.
Yes you are right. Take Mr Unavailable and assclowns – women have taught them that they don’t need to change because where one woman won’t put up with their behaviour, there are plenty that will and they have the outlook that unless there was a serious consequence to their behaviour – ie – they could no longer get women – they have no impetus to change.
LOL, all I wanted from my boyfriend after seven years together was a commitment and for him to move in with me.
What a waste of my time trying to convince him that I really was a worthwhile package he should invest in.
Now I have a much better understanding thanks to this site and NML x
I have learnt a very long and difficult lesson over the past seven years, and yes am a bit scared of repeating my mistakes.
Never put yourself in the position of having to sell yourself to someone because it puts you in a precarious place that is difficult to recover from.
I have to say… I am exactly here in this article! I just had a conversation last night about how I felt my needs were not being met in my current relationship… yet I do NOTHING but talk about it… WTF?… I know my needs and if he cannot meet them… why do I stay.. why do I try harder… its ridiculous..
He is who he is… and I am who I am… I am an fun, interesting, intelligent person – who after reading this realizes, I simply tolerate bad behavior instead of SHOWING by my actions that this sucks and its not for me.
I believe I am just too damn lazy at my age (41) to start over… and I have two kids..and dating sucks…but these articles are helping me to change my mindset… well, these articles and of course Sandra Bullock!
The best thing you can do is to quit the talking and tell yourself that you can only have these conversations if there is a concrete action to follow afterwards. It will mean you have to be a person of your word. If you tell someone they are not meeting your needs, it’s like saying ‘You are failing…but I’ll stay anyway to remind you that you’re failing’. You’ll end up being focused on the failing so that even if there are things that are working, these will be forgotten. No-one feels empowered by being a failure so it’s important to decide what you are doing when you tell them.
WOW!!
I’ve pulled something out of this that has really answered the big “why?”question for me — it seems sooo obvious now. So since I see myself here in a lot of you guys, I will share it, and maybe it will help someone else . . .
Once I went on a date with a guy who had a boat. It was a fabulous, totally restored vintage yacht. We had a beautiful day. Nohting he provided could have been more perfect.
I had a wonderful time, but for me, that was it.
I didn’t feel like I needed another boat day.
He pursued and pursued, and even said something like “but you said that my boat was one of the most beautiful things you’d ever seen and you had a wonderful time.”
True. I did. But so what?
It was all perfect and wonderful, but I can take or leave a boat.
Boating is not of value to me.
Now how about me and my Mr. Unavailable?
“I’m attractive, I’m accomplished — I don’t get it.”
I bet Sandra Bullock doesn’t get it either.
It doesn’t matter if you or the rest of the world values your qualities.
It doesn’t matter if his family and friends like you.
It doesn’t matter if you have a history, and many common interests.
It doesn’t matter that you have great sex and a strong connection.
All of these things can be true.
But if he does not value them, or does not value them much, none of it matters.
You are his day on the yacht.
Lovely and enjoyable, but not a requirement.
(Of course, if you bring the yacht by, he’ll be pleased to take a ride!)
Don’t underestimate the weight of society on us or them.
You are a success according to general societal norms and expectations.
He understands these norms too, and may feel some need or desire to comply — or even just say that he wants what he is “supposed to” want.
But at the end of the day, if he values a stripper with a tattoo on her face, he values a stripper with a tattoo on her face.
The sad thing is, he’s keeps to his values, but we are so often willing to lose ours.
Keep your face clean.
Keep your values straight.
Thanks to NML and all the amazing women who have helped me here!
thanks for sharing ‘Over it’. Very profound.
Is the Jesse James mistress a stripper, too? (I thought she was just a tattoo artist with massive amounts of tattoos.)
So how can it be explained:
1. James’ hot, aggressive, charming, and persistent long initial pursuit of Bullock? Why so hot to chase, win, and marry the nice girl, people?
2. And he never played the bad-boy hot-and-cold game on her–why? (Actually, she played hard to get with him!)
3. How he won her complete trust? (She said that he “had her back” in the Walters pre-Oscar interview.)
[And all this–all these questions, too–DESPITE his history of having been married to a porn star AND alcoholism, AND despite her being so cautious in choosing a marriage partner.]
Jesse James’ girlfriend is/was a stripper, but the point I was trying to make wasn’t really about her.
What I was trying to say was, you may possess many fine qualities, that you and many other people value,
but if the object of your attention does not value them as well, they’re not relevant in your relationship equation.
The same would apply whether you are a “traditional” or “unconventional” girl.
If you are an unconventional girl, and meet who you think is the perfect unconventional guy, if he doesn’t value your qualities, you are in the same situation as a traditional girl.
My thought was that we need to stop thinking of this mismatch of values as something lacking in us.
When did what they value become more important than what we value?
I value being respectful.
I value being faithful.
I value keeping my word.
(for a start!)
If he doesn’t share these basic values, he’s not right for me. Period.
Bingo – this is exactly it. The fact that she was a stripper or has tattoos is irrelevant! To focus on these aspects of her rather than the bigger picture of what it means to be with her, is missing the point and focusing on the surface.
Sandra married someone who is a Fixer Upper/Walking Wounded – she is fixing, healing, helping which is indicative of control. In this situation, she probably thought she could change him but if his issues are bigger than that, or the pressure is too much for him to be better than he wants to be, he will rebel. Sometimes being with someone so ‘good’ when you really don’t value yourself will mean that you’ll behave like someone who doesn’t deserve it. When we fix/heal/help, it’s important to ask why we’re doing it and who we’re truly trying to fix/heal/help.
Awesome analogy!
Over It….“I’m attractive, I’m accomplished — I don’t get it.” So true, so true and yes I bet Sandra Bullock wonders just that too.
I guess there is no rhyme or reason but doesn’t Jesse and Tiger just make you wonder.
Being attractive and accomplished is not enough to get or ‘hold onto’ a man. It’s important to realise that as women, in some respects we’re starting to sound like how men have often been portrayed – as people who think that looks and accomplishments is enough. ‘I have a great job, I have a great education, lots of money, and I’m an attractive man’ – so what? We should ask ourselves the same.
I kept bumping my head on this one.
Well if he didn’t like me would be…. whatever it was.
I was his yacht.Ouch
Overit, so true ! I was with a guy with whom we had a great chemistry, loads of common interests and it seemed that we were almost twins and made for each other as we thought in the same way, liked the same things and were generally set up in the same way plus I thought he was a really nice guy. And he thought he was…
However, when I got to know him better, it turned out he lived home with his mummy and married sis round the corner (in his mid 40s), he treated his quite large income as his pocket money and kept all the man toys you can only think of – a sports car, a quad, thinking about getting a speedboat or maybe a pilot licence…
Once he asked me out to for a drive and a dinner (after 3 years being in a relationship – or so I thought) and I was so over the moon – until he told me during the journey that he was off sick home for a week and was somewhat getting cabin fever and being bored at home and needed a change…. I was gobsmacked. It hit me so hard and he said it with such an ease. Unfortunately it took much longer for me to end things but you were so right – I was his feel good day away in his convertible when he felt like having one. It wasn`t all about sex, rather that good day out, actually he quite often dropped me off after a day out and drove home without even coming for a tea.
He also often joked that they should supply sports cars with blondes….
He wanted a kid, quite desperately because his biological clock was ticking. But he didn`t want anything else. He didn`t want to discuss us living together and we broke up when I got a job near his home and was moving. He has never been so distant, cold and annoyed. He wanted a kid with anyone a bit acceptable but he didn`t care about the woman at all. He felt he had his family background and safe haven back at his mum`s and sister`s. The only thing they couldn`t give him was his own child…
Well, I would only consider having my own family not to be a surrogate to someone who thinks a baby is a must-have toy for over 40s and who never paid his own bills for living the less did his own shopping or laundry. Every woman likes feeling sexy and attractive but the looks are not my only qualities and life is so much more than a couple of feel-good trips in a covertible on a sunny day.
I acutally feel ashamed that I, with my postgrad degree, good job and good looks craved attention of and validation from such a hopeless shallow loser still living at home! To my defence, it all started on very different grounds than it ended…
P.S. If I or my family owned any business producing or trading sports cars, speed boats or helicopters or other man toys, I would have been so much more attractive and paid attention to… His exes` quiten often did have those special qualities … katamarans, speed boats…
Read this: but we have so much in common
This really hit home for me, Over it. Thanks for the yacht analogy- that was an “aha moment” for me!
Amen! Fantastic analogy that everyone should read!
This is so incisive: “In this situation, when you provide those fringe benefits and anything else they need, you get annoyed because you need more than what is on offer and so can’t fathom why they don’t want more, and keep trying to give more in the hope that they eventually reciprocate what you need. Of course…you end up running on empty.”
Exactly what happened to me. I appreciate the gentle correction of our own complicity in the bad relationship. We are not merely victims of assholes. To an extent, we volunteer for a certain treatment. Unless we see that, we are bound to repeat the behavior that is ultimately self-defeating. We need to be kind to ourselves, but that needs to include seeing our behavior for what it was–so that we can protect ourselves better next time.
You can only free yourself by recognising your own contribution. If we think we’re victims, we lose power and assume we’re helpless to the chain of events when actually, we have hand in them. We must assess the risk in our relationships and act accordingly.
Awesome post and awesome comments. You have put in words what I have experienced and thought until I’ve turn blue.
Thanks!!
This post could not have come at a better time…
I am so thankful I have come to my senses at 27 and put a stop to the madness… it’s actually crazy how your mind operates out of fear.
“How could this pathetic man not want me?? What is he not seeing that everyone else does?? Is he that afraid of commitment?? Does he fail to notice the other more successful, well adjusted men, much younger men who want me??
I will show him that no matter WHAT he does or WHO he’s doing behind my back, i’ll never ever leave him. He’ll break eventually, and all the love with come pouring in my life”
GARBAGE! I agree – we DO manipulate to get what we want, WE NEED VALIDATION!
WANT WANT WANT, NEED NEED NEED!! We give to receive!
Stay in NC and you will see the light….
In the meantime, i’m so happy to have found all of you – i can’t tell you how much your support has helped me through this.
You are all beautiful women, with so much to offer and so much to give! I’d like to join Nat and give you ALL the validation you’re looking for! We are all strong amazing women!
We CAN do this!
XO
LOL. I agree – stop the madness! I think even by writing out your thought process you can say ‘Woah! This is CRAZY! What the hell am I doing?!’