I listen to people express their desire for a relationship and romantic love and there are a significant portion of these who come across embarrassed and almost apologetic. They feel as if they have to defend how they feel and what they believe, and some of these people, when confronted with romantic partners who are presenting them with something less than mutually fulfilling, will back away from their desires for the sake of keeping the peace and not wanting to appear “uptight”. Next thing, they’ve been on a permanent date for numerous years with one particular person who keeps flip-flapping in and out of their life or who keeps putting the brakes on any movement. They believe that what they want is wrong or that if they hang in there and keep trying to be as pleasing as possible, that the other party will finally cave and meet their needs, expectations, and wishes.
It’s OK to desire love and a relationship. If we get involved with somebody whose preference is for something else, that doesn’t invalidate our desire. Their preferences are a matter of taste for their life. Imposing theirs upon us, whether it’s them or us doing it, is to carry on as if their preferences are objectively ‘right’.
Sometimes our attitude to relationships reminds me of our attitude to enjoying life and retirement; we work ourselves to the bone and by the time we retire, we might be too frickin worn out with ill health or shrinking energy levels to actually enjoy our lives.
Similarly, we could spend a significant chunk of our life pursuing that one person that we’ve decided will be ‘it’ and that they’re eventually going to make us the exception to the rule or, maybe we’ll chase variations of the same person. If we finally get them to succumb to a relationship, we’ll probably be emotionally exhausted and bankrupt of energy, esteem, and even the the other things that used to matter to us, that it will all be a bit of anti-climax. Is this it?, we’ll wonder.
It’s important to be honest about what we want, not just so that we can be more authentic by being and doing the things that are in alignment with our values including our needs, expectations, and desires, but also so that we can consider how we’re going to go about fulfilling our desires.
We must consider the consequences of the option that we pursue.
Sometimes we get so focused on what we want and the basic premise that, yes, we’re only human and it’s only natural for us to want to love, be loved, and desire companionship, that we forget to consider the fact that there are various options for arriving into a relationship, all with consequences.
Not all relationships are created equal. Not all versions of what we see as ‘love’ can be pursued or held onto, because they end up being pain. They also end up being what may amount to decimating whatever self-esteem we have.
Having a fast fling or romance may result in a heady rush of feelings, some great sex, some fun times and the sense of being in a relationship or the potential for one, but the likelihood is that if we’ve moved too fast to either get to know each other, or to notice some rather important factors that indicate whether we have shared core values or compatibility issues, it’s not going to grow into a medium to long-term relationship.
Starting up a booty call or Friends With Benefits arrangement means sex and potentially other trappings of a relationship without the relationship. This might suit us depending on what our needs, expectations etc., are at the time when it starts or just based on the typical pattern of who were are. Equally though, the consequence of getting into a casual relationship (oxymoron alert) is that we get treated and regarded casually. We might experience selfishness and inconsiderateness. If our feelings, needs etc., grow, the consequence will be that we no longer fit into the arrangement and if we continue anyway, the consequence of compromising our needs will be pain and anger, with a lot of it directed inward.
We can try to shortcut the process by getting involved with somebody else’s partner or spouse, but the likelihood is (especially if it drags out and it’s an altogether toxic relationship), that it’s going to be an affair where we both playact at a relationship. Fantasy and pain alert. If we end up together, we’ll have the relationship but then we’ll also have trust issues.
Getting together with the person who likes things on their terms and to be in control of us and the relationship may mean that we get to be in a relationship and to be directed (if we’re afraid of asserting ourselves) but we’re potentially also going to feel bossed around and diminished while bubbling with resentment and frustration.
Getting involved with somebody who is narcissistically inclined at best even if they’re good looking, admired, or intelligent as well being exciting when they’re ‘on’, means getting involved with somebody who is selfish, cruel, and incapable of empathy, which equals major problems and intense pain especially when they’re ‘off’.
Marrying the person who is just like one or both of our parents who we have unresolved issues with that have us looking to fill up voids means that we may end up marrying into a repeat of old patterns and end up feeling like a child while they’re the boss of us.
Getting into a relationship may lead to the discovery that it will not right the wrongs of the past or give us our self-esteem. We’ll still have to give us that.
A consequence of not treating and regarding ourselves well is that we’ll be so starved out that somebody can come along and showboat with their crumbs and it will look like a loaf in comparison to what we’re giving us. We won’t recognise a healthy relationship (or an unhealthy one for that matter).
If we treat and regard ourselves with love, care, trust, and respect, as well as well as valuing our values, a consequence of this is that we’ll be that much more inclined to be in relationships that are in harmony with this. If we values ourselves and use healthy boundaries as a way of expressing our self-esteem, we get so much closer to enjoying our desires.
It is more than OK to want to love and be loved. It’s more than OK to want a relationship but when we’re honest about why we want it, not because we’re questioning the validity of it but because we’re ensuring that we’re coming from a place of healthy desire as opposed to looking to right the wrongs of the past and to fill up voids created in childhood, we stop needing a relationship as a form of salvation. We stop looking for external esteem to be our self-esteem. We know then we are giving as well as receiving, not going into our involvements with an underlying motivation to ‘get’ validation out of it. We know that we’re loving, not piling on the feelings in the hope that it will create a tipping point of reciprocation.
We are more conscious, aware, and present, and before we saddle up with somebody, we consider the consequences of our choices because we are responsible for us. We are responsible for keeping us in alignment with who we are.
We stop selling ourselves short. We care about us as well as others. We allow vulnerability into the mix. We love.
Your thoughts?
PS My seven-year old reminded me that it’s Valentine’s Day this weekend. I’d totally forgotten (I’m actually away with the kids haha) although admittedly we don’t do anything for it normally.
Add to favorites
Expect nothing but words of wisdom from NML and this post is no exception. My main struggle closer to the end of our ‘relationship’ with a girlfriended EUM was that he started explicitly telling me that he was spending more time ON me and WITH me (he meant texting, not physically present) than with anyone in his life ever. And that my expectations of him were unrealistic and that if it took him a day to reply to a text message (and not a second to say that he will indeed reply but is busy now so I know what’s up), expecting him to be available on a weekend etc etc. He would tell me only unemployed losers could comply with those expectations. The list also included some things I wanted us to have in our sexual relationship. And yes, I did take his judgement over mine. That he was right, I had unrealistic expectations about love and relationships. It is looking for outside validation, yes. And it is the fear of losing the crumbs, yes. However, what really helped to break this attachment was getting in touch with my own *continuous* feeling of being in pain and continuously let down. No matter what he and I told myself, it STILL DID NOT FEEL RIGHT. I still wanted that love. I still needed those things from a relationship. You can’t trick yourself. It’s like trying to convince yourself you don’t need air to exist. And guess what? Now that I’ve been continuously NC, I have relationships and new friends who provide consistency, who call when they promise to, who don’t cancel plans for some ambiguous reasons and who volunteer important information instead of pretending sth did not happen! I feel totally at peace and calm ALL THE TIME. In fact, I was ordering some take out recently and went to pick it up in person. The chef himself took my order and after some time went back to check on me to tell me exactly WHY it was taking a bit extra time. I mean, a chef in a restaurant gave me more than this EUM in 2.5 years!
And NML is spot on about being authentic to our own selves and our own beliefs. I would TELL myself I wanted love and a committed relationship but yet I were staying with a person who was never gonna give that love to me (even despite him telling the opposite) and I was preventing myself from being open to meet a real man who would be interested in forging that kind of intimacy with me.
God bless NML for having created BR and all its constant wisdom. It helped me to move on immensely. I am still working on many patterns but nobody could reach out to me in a way Nat’s words always do.
Why,
Glad to see you are sounding better :-). I completely agree with your insights. I found them to be accurate across relationships. A couple of years ago when I began this uphill climb from the lowest I’d ever been I had to admit my men choices weren’t the only ones that needed to improve but that I also remained in some “friendships” with people who really weren’t my friends based on repeated actions. It hurt but I let go of those people also and now I have friends who actually are my friends (ie treat me like a friend should). It feels so much more peaceful, enjoyable and better. I take the time to pay attention to who people show themselves to be now and I have less problems because I believe who they show me they are and decide based on this and my values if they are a good fit for my life. I’m happier than ever. I’m still learning, still working, etc and I’m hopeful. Keep up the good work.
HappyAgain, I did the same thing; got over the idiot and then realized that some of my so-called “friends” were just as untrustworthy, unsupportive, and deceptive. Dumped them, too. Oh, and a family member, too. (that was hardest, actually! boyfriends may come and go, but unplugging from my toxic narcissistic sister was consistent, and imperative)
Like you, I now only have “good” people in my life, and I am sooo much healthier, less stressed, and happy!
Nina,
I think we actually are more conditioned toward poor relationships if we had toxic family dynamics. It’s never too late to become more healthy in all of our relationships. People who genuinely care about you in whatever capacity show you with their actions they do. When I stopped lying to myself that people who didn’t consistently treat me with care and respect cared about me it opened me to 1) learn to care about myself in a healthy manner and 2) make better choices about believing who people show me they are. It took me being honest with myself to begin moving forward.I’m so happy you are finding some new peaceful supportive relationships in your life! Cheers to you! 🙂
HappyAgain,
Pretty much happened to me to a tea. Thanks for sharing and shows we really are not alone in all this similarity of dysfunction.
ditto!
Why. You are so right. I did the same with an EUM for 5 yrs. I took the time he was on as a sign that he would finally see the light and fully commit. Eventually I saw the light. I had to go NC. It’s been 14 months and like you I have peace. No more crying. No more anxiety. No more. The last time I cried was a year ago. It was a few days after valentines. I moarned the relationship and put it behind me. A couple months later he texted me. I deleted the text did not respond and blocked him. I have never looked back. Reading nml blogs helped me make sense of his behavior because I couldn’t explain it. I finally realized that he was throwing crumbs at me and gladly took them. I have started dating again but I learnt so much from my past relationship with my EUM and reading this blog that I know when to stop if I see the red light and sirens blowing.
Such a blessing to have this blog
You’re really catching on to what I think is Natalie’s basic philosophy–self esteem provides the love and kindness we all need, without having to wring it out of some selfish assclown that we would never give the time of day if we had good self esteem.
I love it when the dots start connecting, you know?
Karen, It’s wonderful when the dots start connecting and you recognize (feel) the shift in your perspective! The kinds of people you have been attracted to in the past (or chased) are no longer attractive to you because you recognize they aren’t going to be able to meet your needs. No drama, no judgement, you just pass on by because they aren’t good for you.
Why,
I agree…I wanted things that I knew in my heart were NEVER going to happen. Not to mention he was actually a sexual predator/porn addict, etc.
So I actually had a date…with a really, really nice man. And we are going out tomorrow night for a second date. And I am scared…fear is a better word. I have been so accustomed to mistreatment, that I’m not sure how to adjust to this attention that I am getting from what appears to be a “normal” human being.
Taking it very slow….
Rewind, so glad to hear you are out dating again! Take it slow, cherish yourself. Listen to feedback. We’re here, we’re in this together. Learning and supporting.
rewind
Don’t call him really nice yet, isn’t that how most of them start, by us thinking they are really really nice, and then we hang onto that really nice part and forget the not so nice stuff that shows up later. Don’t make any assessment either way, I know that’s hard to do.
I had an on-again, off-again mostly text “relationship” with occasional hookups and lots and lots of crumbs for about 3 years with a co-worker. I expressed my concern multiple times about him spending all of his time with his harem of female co-workers (yes, I openly called them his “harem”), some of whom I know pretty well.
When we were actively involved he kept me a TOTAL secret and said that he couldn’t date me because we worked together and that he’s gone out with co-workers in the past and it hasn’t ended well. (Until him I too had a strict “no dating co-worker policy” but I was willing to make an exception for him.)He also told me that he “values his privacy” so no one could ever know we hung out. He would tell me I was being ridiculous when I would say that it hurts my feelings when he doesn’t respond to me, spend time with me, or ignores me to hang out with these other women. He flipped me expressing my feelings around into me being ridiculous and “crazy” like all of his exes. I would ask for simple things like text responses, a simple phone call, maybe a movie or a walk once in a while–nothing earth-shattering–and got NADA!
We have not hooked up since last May but maintained the facade of a “friendship” i.e. mild work-related texts, benign inside jokes. Yesterday one of the harem members posts on FB what a great Valentine’s Day she had with her bf and tags him. So obviously this dude did EXACTLY what I was always afraid of and is now dating one of these girls! I’m so angry that he made me feel like I was overreacting and being jealous when in the end, I was right. He DID end up dating one of them anyway! Grrrrr!!!!
So it can’t be that he didn’t want to date a co-worker and that his privacy is too important if she’s bragging about him on FB!!! I feel like a fool for even thinking I could remain friendly on any terms with this assclown. So all of these months we been occasionally sending “friendly” texts and he’s dating a co-worker??? I also know that all of his exes are “crazy” in his eyes, so I am mortified that I even gave this asshole the opportunity to look at his phone when I text and say that I am crazy or that I won’t leave him alone.
It’s not that he didn’t want those things. He just didn’t want those things with me. I am embarrassed that I kept chatting with him and giving him the attention and ego strokes he needs and he gets to be the “good guy”.
I’m so devastated that I expressed what I wanted and had it turned around and used against me, only to have him give what I wanted to another girl. Who I know. He gave someone else more time, energy and EFFORT in one weekend than he gave me in 3 years! Its absolutely embarrassing and disheartening. Finding out via FB on Valentine’s Day was just the icing on the cake.
We all work together so now I will just avoid, avoid, AVOID both of them. I deleted his phone # immediately so I won’t be tempted to text. I’m just so ANGRY right now. I expressed what I wanted and had it used against me. And I could never call out this BS or he’d be the “victim” of just another “crazy woman”…
Ugggghhhh! In the end, my fear of the harem girls came true, so I was right all along…and right now, being right feels pretty crappy.
figuring it out – I don’t think he will offer much more to this new woman,than he did to you.
Maybe initially when it is the honeymoon – valentine phase- but after that – a leopard/ass clown usually returns to his spots !
Hard lesson to learn, you accepted crumbs and were dished out even less, glad he is no longer in your personal life- what a horror x
Thanks for your response, Louise! This has all been dragging on for a long time now. I knew he would eventually move on – just never thought it’d be with a co-worker. And in all honesty, I’d hoped I would move on first. Always coming in last place still stings – even after all this time. Still trying to figure out how I even allowed myself to get here. I’ve always been guarded and hesitant to get into a relationship for fear of getting hurt, and things like this don’t help with that.
Tired of always feeling less than and feeling so sad…
Figuring It Out. Well, if he’s not Mr.EUM I don’t know who is. You knew he was bad news and you stayed with him. I feel for you and understand how embarrassed and outraged you are. We must learn to listen to that “little voice”, our gut instinct that senses something is “off”. But we ignore and ignore all the while allowing ourselves to be sucked in deeper into an unhealthy rship. Pick yourself up off the floor and go NC as much as you can at your job. Never again have an intimate rship with a co-worker. I’m talking about strict NC. No texting, no phone convos, and. no demure smiles when you see him. You will have to pretend you have no feelings about his behavior until it becomes a reality. YOU CAN GET OVER HIM. He’s dead to you, so move on and resolve to take better care of yourself – your heart and your mind. Learn this painful lesson and don’t get into rships that have a high degree of risk, and damage to self-esteem. Nobody is that special. Good luck.
Figuringitout, god, I wish I could hug you right now. Our stories sound similar at some point. Once, back in the very beginning, when it was all romance and adoration from him, I confessed to him about the experience I wanted to have. It was a type of social outing. I told him I was dying to have it with him. Cue 1.5 years later, I am spending my nights at work, working on a project where he was a lead (I have already “officially” ended it by then but yes, we were still having sex – my lowest point in life probably). I receive a work email from a young girl who works with us. I ask her about a work related thing and she tells me she’ll need a bit more time since she was out all night with my exEUM doing exactly the thing I have confessed to him I wanted to do. He chose my dream, and went and made it a reality with another woman. I called him at 4 am. And cried and sobbed and asked “whywhywhywhy? why did you do it? why did not you ask ME? you knew it was my dream”. And he told me it was not personal. That I was too crazy lately and he did not think I’d be a good company anyway. Nothing sexual happened between them. But I rolled on the floor with pain. I cried and cried and cried. And this did not stop at that. I had sex with him a few times after.
He has a gf. He always did. He tells me still it’s not something I’d understand. That I don’t know what “intimacy” is, this is what they have. When I used to tell him that how being intimate with her goes with having cheated, he either runs away or tells me I am a bad person. Why the heck am I saying all of it? Because you say “He just didn’t want those things with me”. It might take a long time to understand, to really FEEL it, but it is not about what he wants. He is disconnected from his values and his actions. Nobody can treat one woman like dirt and then be totally transformed within days and be a perfect boyfriend. Because as someone said on this site, when YOU treat other people with respect, it’s because you want to, because that’s in YOU.
Figuringitout, I know it’s impossible not to internalize his actions right now. I still do take exEUMs words and think what an undesirable woman I am. His actions, his reactions to YOU have nothing to do with your value as a person or a woman. They don’t tell you anything about yourself. However, they tell you EVERYTHING you need to know about himself. He is a liar. He is secretive and a coward. His actions told you everything you needed to know. You’ve dodged a bullet, sister.
Nobody changes from treating women like dirt to being a good boyfriend. You are lucky you got out.
Thank you both for your kind words, Tinkerbell and Why! I really appreciate it. I made the difficult and heartwrenching move of unfriending both of them on FB this morning. I thought I would feel liberated and victorious, but I just feel so sad – been crying on and off for days. I deleted him from my phone immediately on Valentine’s Day but I struggled with the FB break. For me it was a way to keep tabs but I was obsessing and driving myself CRAZY looking back thru posts and pics to analyze and do self-punitive “detective work”. For what? To punish myself and make myself feel worse? I needed to stop.
It it so stupid, because it’s only FB, but it feels so FINAL. Like none of it ever happened. Like I never existed. I am certain he won’t even notice. And I felt a little bad unfriending her because I did kinda like her. But she is more likely to post mushy things about him and just I can’t take seeing that stuff. I almost sent him a private fb message explaining why I was unfriending him, but I didn’t want to give him any more of an explanation of my feelings than I already have…he can think whatever he will.
So right now I am just absolutely reeling from the finality of it all. I appreciate your responses as I am feeling pretty beat up and lonely at this moment. I know this will pass but right now I feel emotionally drained and just positively devastated. I think I’ve cried so much these past few days that I’m dehydrated!
I am thankful for this site as everyone is so supportive. I have a feeling I will be spending a LOT more time than usual on here in the upcoming months. Thanks again!
figuringitout I completely understand getting obsessed with analyzing Facebook posts. It took A LOT of courage for you to press the delete button. Bravo! It is a finality to defriend someone because you can’t just add them on again without them knowing like you can re-add a phone number to your phone. It appears you’re experiencing the normal feelings of grief and on top of that detoxing from the obsession. So feel your pain and let it be a reminder for you to be cautious about who you choose to allow in to your life and heart. Hang in there! You will get through this and become stronger in the process.
Thank you, Lisa! I may feel like an idiot piece of crap right now but all of the support and encouragement really does help! I am so grateful for this site.
Wow I read only now your appalling story… So sad and infuriating. Not surprising though, as many posts on this site testify.
I can tell you this: with all the heartache you’re going through, be assured that you *have* learnt your lesson. This will not happen again. Not in this degree anyway. Armed with this knowledge – it might take a bit to fully accept this – you don’t need to close off your heart again like you did before ok? You’re stronger now. It will be easier next time. Take care figuringitout, V.
Hi figuringitout,
Small advice about FB. It’s also good idea if you change your privacy settings in FB, so people who are not your friend can’t send you messages. Also you can put him in the SPAM folder.
Ex wrote from FB chat, 2 weeks after she deleted me from FB. So we exchanged 3 messages 3 times, but it was too much for me. I did exactly what I am describing above. I changed the privacy settings and put her in SPAM.
Good luck.
Thanks for the advice! Though I am 100% certain that he will never speak to me again once he realizes I unfriended them both…
As for her, I am sure she will badmouth me at work once she realizes it – especially because we have several mutual friends. She may never put 2 and 2 together and I doubt he will tell her why, but even if he does, I will be made out to be crazy and the bitch. And this girl can be unkind, so I will brace myself for the fallout. But I had to do what I had to do for me.
I think that the best for your own benefit will be if with the time you get indifferent to the whole situation and the people involved in this “love” triangle. I think that if you just don’t engage in any kind of provocations from them you will get the chance to heal emotionally yourself.
Good luck and keep in touch with the BR community if you feel that you are falling out of the wagon 🙂
You really dodged a bullet.
I once called out a guy on saying that all the women he meets are “crazy.” He was trying to woo me. I said that he needs a better “picker,” meaning that if all the women he meets are crazy, the main problem is him.
Then I realized another possible reason for saying this, it’s a form of a humble brag. “All of the women are crazy . . . about HIM.”
I’ve been working on trying to weed out narcissists like this for some time. I think I thought when he initially contacted me that I was special and that I wouldn’t be the “crazy one.” Fortunately, he kept going on about the crazy women who wanted too much of him (He’s soooo wanted), that I just had to regulate on that one. Fortunately, I ended it before it went beyond the messaging stage.
Practice indifference if you want to get a rise out of him. People like this want ANY attention.
Many times in my past I settled for relationships with people I knew weren’t really the type of individuals or relationships i really wanted by allowing others to make me feel bad for having standards and values in who/what I wanted. I wasted many years allowing myself to feel guilty/bad for wanting love with someone whose ACTIONS actually reflected that. I feel fortunate for the opportunity to learn so years and SELF ESTEEM wont be wasted going forward.
I recently had the opportunity to do something stupid, and didn’t do it. Met a guy who was clearly interested and apparently available, but he was absolutely not right for me on a lot of levels.
I have been feeling a bit low and vulnerable lately, not to mention old and frumpy and menopausal, and it was very nice to have someone to talk to, even on a reasonably superficial level. So of course it crossed my mind (more than once) to do something further.
If I had given him any encouragement, I am sure we would have something on for this weekend. But I didn’t give him any encouragement, because that’s just mucking around – I am NOT available yet, or not for him, at any rate. I was perfectly pleasant, but I just left it at that. And there were some teeny little alarm bells ringing at some of the things he said to me, which I took as confirmation that I’d made the right decision.
So now I am mopping up the inevitable interior chorus of ‘Gosh, would have been nice to have a date this weekend’. This is inevitable, and that I recognise it as such, I take as a sign of great progress!
Time to revisit the real relationships in my life and be grateful all over again for them. I am also currently experiencing pain from a fantasy relationship which is hopeless and embarrassing, and I need to go back and hit this one on the head again as well. What is so sucky in my life that I need to run away into this again? Answer: MENOPAUSE. It’s really appalling the way one turns into a teenager again.
Emotional life is like gardening – a constant round of weed-pulling, watering, feeding and pruning …
Ethelreda
That’s very interesting what you said about MENOPAUSE. To this day I still can’t understand why I let the AC into my life when I’ve never had one in my life before that I didn’t quickly get rid of when I saw the red flags flying everywhere. Rational judgement went out the window with that man. Menopause affects all women differently, some get through it easily and some don’t, like me. I was a bit of a mess, yup, just like a teenage girl at times, moody, irrational, emotional and would cry at the drop of a hat. Menopause makes sense.
Ethelreda, Pauline
Yes, I agree with the menopause thing, although, for me it’s been better after my Naturopath gave me a tincture.
Update on LD Bagel man. He emailed me telling me he is dating someone local and that if it doesn’t work out, then he wants to meet me. I couldn’t believe it, this from a therapist. I was surprised that he would think that I would think that being the fall back gal would be something I’d want. NO, it is not, I didn’t bother responding to that insulting email. Next.
GOOD FOR YOU. A couple of my internet no-meets tried that line on me as well – the B List.
Run away. Well done!
Ethelreda
Yes, it’s good but I’m feeling pissed. There is a new guy I want to meet, my friend told him about me and now apparently his friend (who wouldn’t give my friend the guy’s number) emailed me to tell my friend to back off on me trying to meet the guy.
This other guy was someone my friend tried setting me up with and we spoke but nothing came of it. Now I feel that maybe he is possibly sabotaging my meeting with his friend (the guy I want to meet). They were going to have a party and he decided not to.
I’m upset because the pool of guys is so small in my age group and this city and now I can’t meet this guy who could possibly be a good guy for me. I am mad about this. But what can I do?
How can I approach this matter. He said that my friend probably scared him off. They are friends, you would think that he knows what his friend is thinking. Anyways, any ideas on how I can handle this? I know I have to let it go, and I am wondering if there is something I can say to the guy that might encourage him to support the meeting. Just ideas. Like I said, I’ve been single a long time and meeting good guys is not easy, because there are few of them.
Whatever, you’re getting into obsessive territory here. I think the advice the others gave you is good – walk away from it.
I KNOW it hurts, and I KNOW it seems sucky, and that it MUST BE HIM or no one else, but if he is not interested, LEAVE HIM ALONE.
If you can walk away from this, it’s just possible that at some future date you might meet him properly. (I can’t promise you he will be the wonder-man you’ve imagined; in fact, you may end up wishing you’d never bothered!)
But if you chase him, you will put a pox upon everything, and also make yourself feel and look like a complete and utter idiot. You need to reclaim your dignity here. Remember, we’re aiming to reclaim YOU – get YOU back, with all your ideas and talents and possibilities.
He is not the Holy Grail. That’s your imagination talking. Let it go. You have no idea what’s around the corner in your future. For example, my next door neighbour just announced romantic intentions towards me (his live-in girlfriend of 13 years left him on Tuesday). And this was over the back fence, no less, in the course of an otherwise perfectly normal discussion about my wisteria vine.
Now, I am not in the least interested in my next door neighbour, for a whole range of reasons, but it just goes to show that the unexpected really does happen. So just walk away from this chump, who sounds as if he’s too easily led by his friends in any case.
she does not know for 100% certain that the guy is not interested.
what we do know is that the guy’s friend is acting as an obstacle. he is interjecting himself into all of this. he won’t provide to whatever’s friend the guy’s phone number.
looks like whatever can not get on a date with this guy without her friends’ help. no other route but the friend to get to this guy.
does whatever know what bookstore/bar/coffeehouse/hangout he frequents? right now, this is the only way she will be able to meet him face-to-face. as long as she doesn’t have to go out of her way to go to x place, she won’t look like a stalker. but she can’t let anyone know she is going to x place, of course.
the friend will be a toxic influence here, even if you do get a date, or even get serious, with the guy. you will have to live with that.
if the guy does NOT like you, then no matter what happens in the future, if you in any way chase him at all over here, he will make it known that whatever is the chaser. to save face with his friend.
no matter what you do, whatever, no matter what happens, keep him in the BACK of your mind. and look for love elsewhere in the meantime.
and, no matter what, let him make the first move.
Used, I’d say straight up that Whatever does know that this man is not interested in her.
When men are interested – even slightly interested – they let you know. They find out where you go, and hang out there. They come up to you and start talking. They follow you to the lunchroom.
This man is not making the SLIGHTEST move in Whatever’s direction. He may have a thousand good or not so good reasons for this, but what matters is that he is not showing any interest in her. That’s all she needs to know. It’s all any of us needs to know.
And as it turns out, the wingman may be doing everyone a favour, because Mr Nice Guy might actually be closeted gay and on the verge of coming out, or has a long-distance relationship with 21 year old Mariana of Manila who he is about to fly out to meet for the first time, or who may well be starting out with a new lady that none of us knows about.
Ethel. I agree. He’s not just haphazardly avoiding her. He is not interested. He has his reasons.
Ah – I see what you mean. Original Guy doesn’t even know Whatever is interested?
Then by all means, position self in Original Guy’s cross-fire. But only once, and only on your own terms. Anything else reeks of desperation.
And ignore the wingman – he is useless interference. He may well sabotage your efforts after you and Original Guy meet, but hey, that’s show biz. If Original Guy is as good as he comes across, he won’t be thrown by his wingman’s idiocies.
Ethelreda, Tink
Thanks for all the advise, however, I am stuck on one point Ethelreda made. I do NOT know that he is NOT interested in me, and how could he know, he hasn’t met me yet. All I know is that he is not interested in calling a stranger (me) without meeting first.
If I knew he wasn’t interested in me, as you think Ethelreda, then I would be happy to drop it. I am not desperate, but I do want to give it a chance to see if there could be interest.
It’s just that I have not experienced many ‘good’ available guys. If and when I meet him, then I can decide if he is indeed a good match for me etc.
“Then by all means, position self in Original Guy’s cross-fire. But only once, and only on your own terms.”
Ethelreda, this is all I wanted to do, but do not know how. My city is big enough, that I would not know where he hangs out etc and frankly, I couldn’t be bothered to put in all the research. My friend doesn’t even know his last name and wingman won’t give her any info.
Anyways, one thing that could be very likely happening, is that the wingman, the guy my friend first tried to set me up with, would like to keep me as fallback girl in case things don’t work out with his ex whom he is negotiating with again, my friend told me.
So, there you have it, I’m letting it all go now, because between him and LD Bagel, and my ex who recently emailed me and possibly this New dude, they all seem to have put me in Fallback girl position. Unacceptable and quite frustrating!
Oh Whatever. I think this sentence kind of gives the game away:
frankly, I couldn’t be bothered to put in all the research
I’m right up there with you on this one. The whole thing sounds like it’s already gotten out of hand, even though it hasn’t even gotten in hand!
You could just walk away from both of them, and chalk it up to experience – The Dangers of Overinvesting In Non-Existent Potential or something.
Have a pizza instead (mind you, this is my solution to most of life’s problems) and look at the horizon and think of something else.
Whatever. Don’t you think he would “man-up” and give you a call if he was interested? He could call you on the phone, introduce himself and attempt to set up a time and place for the two of you to talk. That’s how he meets you. He knows you are interested and you know he knows so what’s all the hesitation on his part about. If he is interested (which you are determined to believe he is) don’t you want a man who is more assertive? If a man is interested he doesn’t take long to make it known. Why are you so fixated on this particular guy? He is not the last chance saloon. Just give this a rest for awhile and see what happens.
“Anyways, one thing that could be very likely happening, is that the wingman, the guy my friend first tried to set me up with, would like to keep me as fallback girl in case things don’t work out with his ex whom he is negotiating with again, my friend told me.’
I think this is probably spot on. I know another guy who was married and refused to introduce his neighbor (whom he had a crush on) to his single friend. He also got mad at his single friend flirting or talking with her.
In his mind the wingman if probably thinking you can be a fallback girl to him.
You reminded me of someone who did the same who I’ve been NC with. He lived about 2hours away and last time I heard from him similar story… He dated local girls and realized he wants me again. The funny thing was he confessed to me how the previous go at this he didn’t really want it and was happy when I broke it off.
The timing of your comment is so perfect! I had an ex recently try to boomerang back to me with the same story!
He’s also 2 hours from me and confessed that he realized I was the love of his life, wants to get married, have babies, and the whole nine yards. He only realized this after dating local women (the last one made up a crazy lie to break up). On top of this he confessed that he was happy last time when I broke it off from him?
I’m trying to understand why would he go through all this to boomerang into something he was happy at some time was broken? Of course now he has to have me it’s all lazy communication trying to get my attention.
Whatever, that IS insulting! Like he expects you to hang around waiting, to be his “fallback girl.” As if! Flush!
Nina
You are referring to LD Bagel guy, right?
Whatever. Is this the same guy you spoke about on the last post? If it is, surely you remember the advice you were given to slow your roll. Now, it seems that you’re becoming even more fixated on this guy, hoping he gets your number, then hoping he calls. That’s a lot to be “hoping” for when you’re depending on getting attention via second and third parties. It’s obvious that you don’t want the advice of leaving this dude alone. But, being so fixated on this guy looks like desperation. You state that the pool of guys your age is so small. Even if there were a large pool of guys, your chances of finding a “good guy” would be the same because you would still want/need one who is good for YOU. Have you ever been married? Are you trying to beat the clock ticking to age 40? This guy is not the last man on earth. I would think by now he is well aware that you’re chompin’ at the bit to meet him, etc. and he still hasn’t done anything. PLEASE face the fact that he is too busy, otherwise involved, or just not interested, none of which bodes well for you. STOP making a fool of yourself. Fill up your life with thoughts and actions other than chasing a man. If this guy is someone different and not the one from the previous post, correct me. I hope it’s the same guy, because otherwise you’re chasing down TWO GUYS? You ask for ideas and advice and when you get it you don’t want to take it in and behave accordingly.
Whatever,
Bagel man is keeping you on as an option, no thanks, don’t fall for that one. Makes me wonder how many back up options he has going with other women. Not very flattering and good for you for not answering his email. Block him on your phone and mark his email address as spam. Not worth another moment of your thoughts.
I understand that there aren’t a lot of decent guys around, I found the same when I was online dating. It is off putting but keep going. Just remember that YOU are important and a valuable person in your own right. You are worthwhile and worth getting to know. As Nat says, love yourself FIRST and treat yourself well, this is so important for your peace of mind and how you deal with whatever life will throw your way.
As far as this other guy is concerned all I can say is wait as you may bump into each other at some time due to the smaller similar age group single scene where you are. In the meantime, get on with your own interests, family and friends and forget it. Yes, having a partner would be nice but that will happen when it happens. If you keep going out, meeting new people, cultivating new interests you may or may not meet someone, there are no guarantees.
But at least you will be living your life and doing things with friends that interest you. I have a group of friends that I can have lunch or dinner with, go on holidays with, go to a movie or attend a public function with when something is on. I also do a couple of part time college courses that are very interesting and between all this, I have a lovely 18 month old granddaughter who is a joy. I love my time spent alone at home to catch up on my housework (and check out BR) and to just relax. Thanks to Nat and BR, I am at peace at long last and I’m not sure if I want some dude messing this up.
The AC was my lowest point ever in my life and I’ll never go back there again. I’ve survived menopause and back to being a normal rational girl again. Funnily enough, I think I ended up dumping the AC when sanity was returning. Reading BR and realising I wasn’t alone also helped enormously.
Hang in there honey, a man isn’t the be all and end all of your existence.
Pauline,
I know your words were meant for Whatever (Whatever, I’m out here in the weeds, wishing you and everyone else well as I read about your latest exploits), but I wanted to thank you for your gentle words of encouragement. Sometimes the greatest gift a person can receive – especially those of us who tend to forget our worth from time to time – is to have our intrinsic value reflected back to us in the eyes (or words) of a friend. Lawd knows I’m harsh enough with myself; I don’t need any additional help labeling, judging or tearing myself down. Your unplifing words act as a touchstone for me, something to refer back to when I’m feeling weak and lonely (as I am right now). I will use your words (and the words of others on this site) when, for whatever reason, I can’t believe the best about myself and feel tempted to seek comfort/care/validation from people who are dangerous and mean to do me harm. Your words and care keep me safe. Thank you.
So lovely!
Thanks Spanish Jackie, that’s very kind of you to say. I’ve read some incredible posts from Nat and the readers who have posted some beautiful insights and reflections that have given me some real AhHa moments.
So glad I found BR.
Whatever. I’m back again because I’m thinking that I may not have appeared patient and understanding of your situation. I’m not referring to LD Bagel Man, who should be out of your mind altogether because you’re flushing that a–hole. I’m talking about this “new guy” that you want so desperately to meet. Whatever, even though I don’t agree with your thinking, I DO UNDERSTAND the loneliness for a man’s love, care, trust and respect which is unlike anything else we may try to substitute. I have a wonderful man in my life who I met online several years ago. We are very close because he is the right man for me, except that he has ED (erectile dysfunction). So what we had hoped would be a very deep abiding love has become a very deep abiding friendship. However, I still have this pervasive need for REAL SEX, not just a hug and kiss. I believe that women have biological needs that drive us toward wanting “love”, sex, the whole bit. It’s very hard when you’re an affectionate person to go without fulfilling this need for years and without seeing a viable end to the frustration. After several years here on BR, working with a psychologist, and reading, in addition to and beyond Natalie’s books, I am finally at peace. I’m as happy and content as I’ve ever hoped to be. I have some very healthy friendships, keep myself busy and have learned to not only accept but appreciate the personal freedom that being alone affords. Lately, I’m been thinking about going back to online dating but I recognize the fact that I don’t feel like spending the time composing an appropriate, not too much info, but captivating profile. I know that I’m not really invested in the idea so I’ve done nothing. Now, today after reading the CNBC article about the hazards of internet dating offered by Simple Pleasures I may never go back to it. I am not desperate enough to put myself in possible danger. When I was online in the past my self-esteem was not where it is now, and I was a few years younger. I met and went out with a couple of jerks who were not that bad but there was no common ground. Now, having much more emotional stability and greater self-esteem, do I need it? The answer is “No”. I think Simple Pleasures post was meant for me to read right now. Come next month or the next, I may change my mind again but it won’t be an irrational act. The last point I want to make is that I will never, as long as there is breath in my body, chase after a man. As someone else said on here, I “will not have an AC messing it up”. I can do bad by myself. Let my headaches and hardships be mine and not caused by or exacerbated by an AC.
Learn to love YOU First. Others are telling you this and I am too. Hopefully, repetition will finally sink in. Are you right and we are all wrong when we tell you this? We tell you because we know the futility in chasing a man. And if you do eventually get him, it’ll yield a poor outcome because you have not given him a chance to start out with RESPECT for you. Men tend to think that whatever you do and however you conduct yourself with them you will jump to do with any other fool who says, “Hello”. Your chasing does not indicate to him that you think he is special. He sees you as so desperate you’ll take whoever you can get. This shouts out that you don’t think much of yourself or you’d be more particular and scrutinizing before chasing down a stranger. My experience 5 years ago with a MM taught me so much because I was open to learning to put myself first. I was open to whatever would help me reach that existence.
I don’t suppose you will respond to me, but I hope you will see the light, NOW not later. When you love YOU first, you’re settled, thinking more clearly in a personally beneficial manner and thereby, you avoid a lot of headaches.
Sorry, Whatever, if “LD Bagel man” is not your guy. But, I’m not confused about this “new guy” situation.
Tinkerbell, I know your post was for Whatever, but thank you. It speaks directly to me. I agree with everything you say.
Sofia. Thank you for letting me know my words have helped and reinforced strength and encouragement in someone.
Thanks Tink
Yes, I am working on the self love and that does come first. Been around long enough to know,as you said, Let my headaches and hardships be mine and not caused by or exacerbated by an AC. I agree and I also know that relationships are work and some of those hardships are worth it, as you are experiencing with your beloved. Knowing when it’s worth it is the key. Good luck to you with your guy.
Thanks. He is a very good friend and at our ages that is actually more important because it’s permanent. No lover’s quarrels.
Thanks Pauline! You are lucky you had children and that you have grandchildren, I missed that boat. Enjoy!
Thanks for the post, Natalie. It’s timely for me. I’ve been single but dating forever it seems (I did have a year long hiatus ending in a roller coaster ‘thing’, then another break then some mini roller coasters).
I find myself at a point and age (39) in life where I’m so concious of what I’m missing (a partner and family) that I’m getting into really bad habits or patterns out of sheer desperation or for distraction.
I’m not a stupid person, I have very good insight into what I’m doing – advertising myself as looking for ‘casual’ when that is NOT what I want and I know it brings me huge amounts of unnecessary pain.
Most recent crisis of reaching out in this negative way was last weekend. I woke up and realised what I was doing, and with the last person who contacted me I told him I was sorry because I was misleading him and I’m not actually into casual sex. His response “me neither…” and suggested we keep on chatting (texting). He tried to start sexting but I know that draws me in further and creates a feeling of obligation for me. We met for 2 drinks and it’s really daft, there’s no chemistry, I picked up narc tendencies in just 2 hours, and I could tell he wasn’t even interested (except in my body). When I explained again why I wasn’t like my profile stated, ie why there was no sex, he again said that he agrees re casual sex ans suggested meeting again. I went along with that in spite of red flags as far as the eye could see (including my own very real issues).
What pisses me off is that I already know all of this, I get everything Natalie says, but there’s such a string addiction or compulsion for validation and attention that I lose my rational or wise mind.
With this last guy, I eventually stopped responding to his texts (today) ans I felt …GUILTY! I felt more empathy for his (possible) feelings of rejection now than for my very predictable feelings of pain and rejection were I to see him again and no doubt get very physical.
It’s incredibly frustrating. I’m old enough abs have been through enough that I should know better, end of. I keep trying to get a silk purse out of a sows ear. I go looking for sows ears (casual sex) because it gives instant gratification. I know all of this and still I slip back into it when lonely/ bored/ horny.
Fed up and exhausted. And going in circles with this with my happily-engaged therapist 🙁
p.s. To avoid temptation (because the guy I met last week was really tempting in an entirely superficial way), I have plans for the dreaded V weekend. Night out with one of my best friends on Friday and a gig night with a close cousin on Sat. Hopefully I will be too worn out ~ or sufficiently happy ~ to want to look for mischief on Sunday.
Natalie *thanks* again and enjoy Valentines with your girls. I hate the commercial aspect of the day! Nothing nicer than a homemade card/ gift, especially from a child (sometimes receive one from a niece or nephew) X
Hi MaryW
Can I just ask why are you offering or promising casual sex if that’s not what you want? Misleading someone just to get to meet them when you have no intentions of doing anything else could end up nasty. Sorry I have to point that out to you. Guys call it prick teasing!
If you want to find someone in the running for a relationship, it is very hard now with all the online hook up sites, but you have to at least be on a dating/relationship site. I know it is very difficult being single and having no sex. Just meeting for sex and attention is very unfulfilling.
For those of you looking for love on the internet please be advised of these scams and warnings. Internet dating apps are not well protected against identity theft and scams. Be careful. .
Very true although the previous commenter is right, many of us won’t meet someone in our respective towns. Been trolling on match to see if it’s worth a sub and one of my “matches” is a textbook fraud. Astonishingly handsome, from one of the ski towns with profile wording/word usage, entirely and a mode of dress at odds with where he lives and what he claims to do for a living; lot of talk about God, marriage, etc. Theres nothing wrong with Christians but this dude sounds like a fundamentalist preacher. Why, pray tell, would a model-handsome, well dressed dude be on line in a region rife with very fit, well off women and whose competition is men who are mainly there as ski bums? Read carefully ladies.
Ha! If something seems to good to be true, it usually is. It’s a fake profile put up by some scammer out to relieve you of money. Good looking single dudes in real life are usually swamped by women queuing up for a date.
They don’t hang out on the internet, they don’t have to.
Hit the delete button and keep looking.
Yep, used to suss out frauds for POF a few years back. Unfortunately the downandout/skibum dudes are frauds of a different sort but will never make ol Noquays heart go pitter pat. Sigh. Still, good to know what one is dealing with in either case.
Hi, S.P. Thanks for that link above. It is worthy of us all taking a few moments to read it.
MaryW, you have a profile up somewhere that says you want casual sex but then you get on dates with guys and tell them this isn’t what you really want? I’m so confused. The only guys who will respond to an ad like that are guys who want that, why not change the ad? Maybe I’m missing something.
It IS much easier to get quick, shallow “validation” from guys when you put it out there that you’re interested in something casual. There are plenty of guys around for something like that, especially when you get over 35, because most of the guys who want relationships have steadily settled down over the years and what is left is the ones who didn’t want that. So if you begin putting it out there that it ISN’T what you want, you will find a dearth of men willing to blow smoke up your ass. However, who cares. That’s not what you want anyway from the sound of it.
Don’t try to hook a fish with sex because he just struggled the whole time you try to reel him in. Open a net and invite fish to swim in who want the same things you do. Then there’s no struggling. 🙂
Hi, thanks Cherry and Diane.
It is confusing. I had a profile on a dodgy hookup website purely because I was feeling very lonely and it was a distraction getting messages. I realised what was happening (because it’s happened before), why I was looking for the wrong sort of attention, etc, and decided to take down the profile because I really don’t want casual sex.
Meanwhile, as I was taking down the profile, I heard from a guy and immediately told him that the profile was a mistake, I don’t actually enjoy casual sex, and he replied that he doesn’t either (ahem, why was he looking) and he asked if I wanted to chat anyway.
So we exchanged some messages and met for a drink. I made it clear I was only meeting him for a few drinks, and we met in a public place. I know it was wrong because I was extremely nervous about meeting him. I’m always nervous on dates but I was terrified, even though I knew I was going home on my own.
I accept I misled him to a degree but I also tried to set him straight as soon as he contacted me and again before meeting. Mixed messages, I know.
It’s a problem when I get very lonely. When in my wise mind, what I’ve just described makes no sense at all.
I am on a bonafide dating website and just not getting anywhere. I am at that age where I am pretty much over the hill in terms of starting a family. The last few guys (age >35) I have met have been totally EUM in one way or another, and it’s hard work.
MaryW, I guess you’re over 35, as you mention your guys are. Ahem, that’s not really “I am at that age where I am pretty much over the hill in terms of starting a family”. Why would you think that? That’s actually quite insulting both to yourself and to people who are way over 35 here and still are trying and going out there and try to be authentic and having an open heart.
Please don’t put those labels on yourself. Know your worth, but do not label yourself. Casual sex, not casual sex, too old to start a family – is it possible you are creating self imposed limitations so you’ll be okay with shady guys? Or setting yourself up for failure? Why? Haven’t you had sh*tty relationships do it for you already? Haven’t you had the society put all this crap on you already?
On dating sites guys frequently have a cut off age 34/35. I am 39 and although I look young for my age, some have said 10 years younger, you tend to get overlooked for younger women. Silly really.
I don’t think it’s the end of the world to start a family as women in their 40’s have children. Both my Nan’s had children in their late 30’s no problem. They reckon those figures of women’s fertility diminishing was from 1900’s when women had quite tough lives. We live for longer and have healthier lives so why not be able to conceive for longer?
that’s what I thought and missed the boat, just saying.
Cherry. I just had to butt in here. I don’t know where you live but here in the US dating sites for older individuals even seniors are proliferating, well-advertised and being utilized. Just had to insert that tidbit.
Why, I am 39. I have noticed that mens interest has dropped off just going from 38 to 39. One guy I recently dated told me that my age was a factor in him breaking it off: he said that he was aware of my age and he knew he didn’t want a committed, long term relationship with me and didn’t want to waste my time. I didn’t make this up, it’s my reality. Another guy (age 35) recently told me that he would date me in a casual way but he goes for younger women when it comes to long term relationships. Maybe these two experiences have jaded me, but this isn’t me putting labels on myself, sadly.
Jeez! Mary, those two creeps really think a lot of themselves, don’t they? They’re doing you a favor by not being interested. Talk about red flags!
Two psychos – why did the first guy date you if he thought you were too old for him?? And what really is a difference between 38/39? And as to the second guy, ok, if this is his thing, but then why isn’t he dating young chicks?? Don’t tell me they aren’t interested in him really?
I recently met a guy, older than me. It turned out he was married and said he was only interested in causal sex. I said if I were interested in causal sex I would’t have it with him but with a much younger guy. Plenty of eager ones in my local gym + super fit, I’ve had several offers. Older guy, young, fit and eager guy … no contest really if it was about causal sex. You should see how low married guy’s jaw dropped. ????
Great response!
Memphista,
It was my age in combination with his lack of ’emotional attraction’ (or something similar) to me; he didn’t want to waste my time waiting to see if he developed feelings. He was a very odd character. The other one, well he was happy to have a fling with me but not a relationship.
I love your put down to the older, married guy! Good on you! 🙂
MaryW
These two guys in their mid to late 30’s are going to get a shock when they find out that much younger girls won’t be interested in ‘older’ men except as a bit of a fling. When I was in my 20’s anyone over 35 was over the hill and who wants to go out with their ‘dad’ on a regular basis. Unless they have lots of money and a big willie, they won’t be in any serious running.
They are deluding themselves so anytime some dude tells you you’re too old, have a quiet laugh up your sleeve. Or burst out laughing in their faces is better.
Men tend to over rate their attractiveness and who knows why they think they are God’s gift to the world. In all likelihood their Mum’s have been blowing smoke up their asses since they were born. Mum’s do things like that!
You may need to do some more due diligence before you meet someone unless they are just lying through their back teeth to get you to meet them. In that case I would just get up when they come out with that crap, tell them they lied and walk off. Simples!
Who really cares about these types of dudes.
Just delete and keep looking, not all guys are like these self centered morons.
MaryW, congratulations on realizing what you really want. That is the first step. I remember when I first got out of my EUM 5-year relationship, I remember thinking (and this is SO unlike me) that maybe I would just join a SugarDaddy site. My reasoning was that all guys wanted was sex anyway, and that is all anyone was going to be willing to give me, so why not at least make some money out of it. Ha! I don’t even need anyone’s money. But that’s how screwed up my thinking was. It was then I realized I needed some therapy or something! The first step is really realizing your negative thoughts and what is causing them. For you to know that you are just looking for validation is great. Most people never even get to that point. And I agree it is very hard on the dating sites after 35. I mostly get older men or much younger men. The men my age are looking for women younger than them for the most part. And the weird thing is I look just as I did 10 years ago, fit into the same clothes, etc. I just accept it for the reality it is. I would still like to fall in love before I die, but if it doesn’t happen, it doesn’t. I’ve only got one life and I’ve got to live it to the best of my ability.
Thanks Diane. Glad to know I’m not the only one who has scewed thinking from time to time!
I do go to therapy. I know it’s all about validation. Actually my therapist calls it love addiction.
It’s only when I’m at a really low ebb that I “act out” in this way. This weekend was a shitty one but I “sat with it” and went through the lonely feelings without seeking male attention.
Diane, I have noticed exactly the same with dating sites. Either men in their twenties telling me how much they love older women (sigh) or men in their fifties. I am not interested in either.
I have to get to the mentality that my success and happiness in life is not linked to whether or not someone else loves and values me.
You get far fewer fish that way, but they’re more likely to be keepers, I would say.
“What pisses me off is that already know all of this” – I hear you Mary W!!! I too made someone feel like I was more comfortable with the “casual” thing than I obviously was. In my case I think it was a combination of loneliness and not wanting to seem to needy. By the time I owned up and expressed my needs, he used them against me and called me ridiculous (whilst still continuing to bang me when he felt like it – ugh!) And now I’m a complete and total mess. Self-esteem in the toilet for sure! It is so frustrating how we do this to ourselves. It’s comforting to know I’m not the only one who is fed up and exhausted by all of it. At our age (I’m 41-btw) we should be better at this whole thing. I’m glad for your honesty in your post. Sometimes it just feels better to know you’re not the only one. Hang in there…
Figuringitout, it’s hard isn’t it? I have even tricked myself into thinking that casual sex is OK for me when it blatantly isn’t. I can’t even blame hormones/ horniness – when I examine it carefully, it’s loneliness.
Last year I hit an all time low and got involved with a MM who was a controlling narcissist. In a strange way, it helped me galvanise my efforts to grow and discover things about myself. Despite the blips since…
I made a bit of an alarming discovery though, which is that I think I have borderline personality disorder. What that means (for me) is recognising that I am hyper-emotional and casual sex followed by “abandonment” opens up all of my old wounds, and they stay open for quite a while.
I find it helps me to think of my inner child and consider what she deserves. She doesn’t deserve to be used for casual sex. When I am mindful of her, she helps guide me to right path.
It’s all just so hard. And I completely agree that loneliness is a huge factor. I think I did act like I was OK with being casual at first. But if I’m really honest with myself, I was never REALLY OK with being casual or just being the FWB. In retrospect I think perhaps I thought it was my “in” and he’d fall in love with me. Or at least just really like me. Yeah-obviously I’m not that special.
I had been single for a long time before him as a self-protective measure and those little itty-bitty crumbs seemed like a big deal at the time. I am also extremely private, so I was initially OK with the secrecy which I justified as I had broken my own “No Dating Co-workers Policy” with him. I wanted it to be a secret for a while and see how things went. Clearly he wanted someone to bang when he felt like it and I caught feelings. Once I revealed my feelings and desire for more of a relationship, his actions (and inactions) very clearly showed he did not feel the same. So I am absorbing all of the blame for the position I am in. I did this to myself. And at my age, I should have known better.
I am a nurse who worked with borderline clients for years. That is an extremely difficult diagnosis to cope with and I wish you well. It is characterized by stormy relationships and abandonment issues. It is difficult enough to navigate this strange dating world – especially in this electronic era – so I hope you are getting additional support with your diagnosis.
Be well and I wish you the best. My hope is that one day we will all “get it” as women and never allow ourselves o be put in any of these scenarios!
My dear Ethelreda, ….I was just reflecting on how AWESOME menopause is ; I feel more like my authentic self…ya know. The one that was there before the hormones and the utter, completeobsession with FINDING someone consumed me. Ahh. Happiness. Don’t get me wrong. It would b lovely to have a man in my life but no longer at the expense of me and who I am , what I think, and believe….Kindness in word and deed. That’s all important. The rest is bunk. Happiest of …Valentine’s to all.
I ain’t THERE yet, though. I’m in perimenopause, which is a real bitch. I have great runs of happy days, and real glimpses of the wonders out there once I get over this hill, but some days the hill looks awfully big …
Etherelda, Have you ever tried Black Cohosh? It’ work very well for me.
Oops! It worked very well for me! Long day!
I used to take it – I have had menstrual problems all my life – but now I use HRT.
Natalie… First of all, thank you sincerely for your posts. They have been my lifeline for the past 4 months. I am lucky I found your website.
I’ve had a very traumatic 6 months and after reading all your posts I know exactly what I did wrong and why.
I got carried away by someone’s charm and flattery and ignored all red code behaviour despite my better judgement because my need for acceptance and approval was very high. This is what I find very hard to accept… The fact that I did not pay herd to my gut, the fact that I was so needy and desperate for affection. The fact that I deliberately ignored red code behaviour. I don’t know how to look myself in the eye anymore.
I woke up to my senses sometime back and have totally cut him off now but I am very emotionally scarred and I am finding it really REALLY hard to live with my regrets and stupidity.
I believe in astrology and palmistry and several years back I was told that in the year of my 40th birthday I will
Meet a man who will be very deceptive and I must take care and not get involved.
Despite being forewarned I played with fire and am regretting the consequences.
I got involved in an affair with a married EUAssclown. I am myself married. Mine was an arranged marriage.
I met my husband 3 times – one hour each time before I had to decide to marry him. It was the done thing in our culture and being very young at that time I said yes.
He had come down from overseas and within one week we got married and I left for my new country
On paper everything has turned out ok but we are not compatible. There is no affection or emotional compatibility. I am forever craving love and affection. He scolds me a lot and is very critical and generally irritated all the time with me.
For the last 15 years we have had massive fights but as i had two young children and am not financially independent I have stayed on.
My husband is a good provider, a wonderful father but quite insensitive to my needs. Plus i am in a country with no family or close friends. I have been very depressed for several years.
Anyways, for the last 4 years an acquaintance had been pursuing me and i ignored him time and again. However last year I fell for his flattery and attention.
He is younger to me by 10 years and I found it flattering that he was attracted to me and am ashamed I that I got so carried away with the attention and highs initially. It felt like a drug.
He mentioned some things about his wife that gave me the impression that things are not well with his marriage and I allowed myself to develop feelings for him.
I got deeply emotionally involved and invested within the first 2 months itself just via sms and chats etc. and he was very persistent that I sleep with him which like a fool I did 3-4 times as I was so emotionally attached by then.
It seemed to me too that he started developing feelings for me as well but i realise now it was mainly my fantasy and projections rather than reality.
Then one day we happened to be at a friend’s gathering and he had come with his wife.
I found her to be a lovely soul, so vibrant and beautiful and They were so into each other. He was caressing her, touching her all the time, they were dancing together..
I was stunned and could not deal with it. I spent the next week crying and then confronted him. He appeared shocked and said … What the hell is wrong with you? Our marriages are our reality. This was always a FWB situation” again pushed me to sleep with him which I declined.
I realised how stupid I had been to get emotionally and physically involved with him and broke it off immediately. Since then he has been relentlessly pursuing me to sleep with him for last 3 months snd I have refused to meet him.
Looking back I recall he used to complain about his wife but had never told me that he planned to part ways with her.
He had only said that he was sexually unhappy and their marriage was full of conflicts and fights. It is my mistake that i fantasied and projected other things.
He treated me very poorly throughout and i put up with it. As you have correctly pointed out, when we do not treat ourselves with love and respect we end up in situations like this.
He must be laughing in his head on how he used me and how little self respect I showed for myself and how dumb I was to fall for his empty words and charm.
I cringe at that thought and it bothers me tremendously.
I green lighted all code red behaviour even though I realised things were not feeling right and got carried away chasing a high even though my gut feeling was that he was a rat and turned out to be so.
I don’t know how to accept my regret, how to live with myself.
It was a classic case of him blowing hot initially and then backing off and ME chasing him then trying to recreate the earlier Za Za Zsu feeling.
This is the WORST feeling…the fact that I chased him once he started withdrawing… I am so ashamed
I was constantly engaging in people pleasing behaviour with him.
I realise now I was trying to create a tipping point for reciprocation which never happened. i have lost respect for my self and regret that so much. He did not deserve me at all.
We have some common friends and I know I will have to face him few times a year. I am dreading it.
I don’t know how to hold my head high even though I am the one who broke it off. What he must think of me!
Natalie you are so right in saying that it is Ok to want love and affection but we have to take into account the consequences of our decisions/actions.
The main good thing that has happened is that I now realise how grateful I am for my marriage and how fortunate I am for getting this second chance. I see my husband in a totally different light and am taking steps to open up my heart towards him.
At this point I am having a REALLY hard time accepting my folly. I should Have been extra careful especially since I am a very sensitive emotional person and not very resilient.
Not sure how to heal and deal with all this now. Any guidance will be appreciated. Many thanks in advance.
SelfSeeker75, have compassion for yourself! You are only human. All human beings (except maybe psychopaths) want love, affection, attention. It sounds like your husband isn’t giving it to you. Anyone would have fallen in your situation, finally finding someone who was giving you some emotional validation. I’m surprised it’s only happened once. I don’t know how old you are or if you can find a job, but might want to concentrate on your marriage and if you can either improve it or leave it.
What beautiful words. Don’t I wish I had someone like you as a friend in my life, you seem such a wonderful person. I would suggest you check out marriage counselling. I found this exceptional website for it, there is excellent advice on her blog if you’re not ready yet to take such a big step. I hope you can benefit from it as I did.
http://www.chestnuthillinstitute.com/mirakirshenbaum
Best wishes Selfseeker75, V.
self seeker
your traditional way of seeing life is not serving you…your marriage is making you unhappy i say to hell with tradition if it makes you so miserable. so you had an affair, i wouldnt be surprised if your husband has too, maybe many times. i hope you can unhook yourself from these illusions you were forced to grow up with.
Self seeker,
Your story is similar to mine. I was married, not very happily, and allowed myself to become involved with another MM who used me. I became very attached to him and although i did end it the whole thing devastated me and took years to get over.
In the aftermath I chose to leave my husband, although by then I was NC with the MM.
Please stop putting this MM on a pedestal. Who cares what he thinks, he is utterly unimportant. He will keep trying it on with you, these ACs always do. Block him in every way possible and treat him with icy disdain if you are obliged to encounter him socially.
Have you anyone you can trust to confide in? It’s hard to bear this all on your own. Would it be possible to see a counsellor.
Work on building your self esteem through other areas in your life. Cultivate other relationships with friends and family. Romantic relationships aren’t the be-all and end all. Many people have very happy fulfilled lives without ever having a partner. I am divorced now, and do have a boyfriend, but to be honest although I do enjoy his company I feel I would be pretty much just as happy without him. It’s strange, because one of the main reasons I left my husband was to have the chance to have a better relationship. That no longer seems important at all. The person I needed to have a better relationship with was myself.
What I am saying is, turn the focus back on yourself. What can you do to make your own life better? Perhaps a little more independence – training, a job?
If your husband is scornful and nasty, that is not acceptable and counselling will might help you to think of how you can stand up for yourself in your marriage.
Best wishes Mx
Natalie, I don’t know how you do it. I swear you must sneak into my house when I’m asleep and read my journal, then you write a piece that seems like a hand-written letter, addressed only to me. You continually amaze me.
After more than a year of contemplative solitude (i.e. not dating or having any recreational sex) I think I’m finally on the verge of being emotionally available and ready to settle down.
It took 61 years, but I was raised by wolves so I’m about 10 years behind my peers in emotional maturity…but I am catching up.
Last week I went to dinner with an old friend and her partner of 15 years, and they brought a friend around my age who was single, so I thought it might have been a fix-up.
She was attractive and had recently retired as a sociology professor, which is catnip for lesbians who all had crushes on their female teachers from K through college.
We lingered in her after dinner, where she was up-front and told me she was in a long distance relationship with an Irish woman.
Strike one!
She said she wanted us to be friends, and I thought it would be great to have a new pal to run around with. She also mentioned wanting to buy a new car and I told her I knew a wholesale guy who specialized in luxury cars only a year or two old.
She got excited and called me that same night (Thurs.)to book me for Saturday to take her to see the guy’s car inventory. But then she texted me at 11 on Saturday morning and said, “Let’s do it on Monday instead.” Strike two!
Texting to cancel the first time you go somewhere with a new friend seems fairly rude to me. So, I replied, “Okie dokie.” By then I was unimpressed and didn’t feel like reassuring her that it was okay and not to sweat it and other people-pleasing bullshit that I used to do instinctively.
After I pressed the send button, I made myself a bet that on Monday, not only would she cancel, but I bet myself she wouldn’t bother to call, text, e-mail or otherwise notify me that she couldn’t make it.
I won the bet.
I didn’t hear a peep out of her on Monday, or all this week. My prize for winning the bet was a beautiful set of amber and red flashing lights.
I know, I may sound morose or resentful but actually I’m quite pleased with myself for noticing that our basic etiquette didn’t mesh, and that to me is a harbinger of pre-meditated resentments and a preview of a lop-sided, crappy friendship.
It felt like personal growth to me. Instead of calling or writing to ask her what happened, I just set the ball down and moved on with my life. After all, I had only known her three hours in person and through one phone call that lasted maybe 20 minutes, so I reasoned, what would be the point of mulling it over for two or three days when I already knew she didn’t make the cut? Or should I say, “make the etti-cut”? LOL…
The point is, I reacted differently this time. I realized she was the one making all the overtures after dinner, so basically I just sat there and told her, yes it would be fun to get together some time. She was the one who suggested we go see the car dealer two days later, then she was a no show, twice.
Strike three!
After summing it all up in my head, I realized she had tried to control everything, and the old me would have let her do it. This new me needs reciprocal consideration, with friends, lovers and relatives.
It feels great to have witnessed that I’ve truly changed my way of disrespecting myself by putting up with someone’s callous disregard for others. She’s probably that way with everyone.
She was a blessing in disguise. She helped me test out my newly found self esteem and it’s working. Yay!
Karen, I am so proud of you! *is it totally weird to say this to a stranger?* I think you were conscious of your needs and anxieties, you were optimistic at first and proceeded based on the feedback you got. I think it’s an awesome experience in self-growth and taking people for what they are. You go, girl!
“After summing it all up in my head, I realized she had tried to control everything, and the old me would have let her do it. This new me needs reciprocal consideration, with friends, lovers and relatives.
It feels great to have witnessed that I’ve truly changed my way of disrespecting myself by putting up with someone’s callous disregard for others. She’s probably that way with everyone.
She was a blessing in disguise. She helped me test out my newly found self esteem and it’s working. Yay!”
Yay!!! Congrats!! What a wonderful feeling and reward for all of your hard work!! People really do show us who they are pretty early on – we just need to pay attention, believe them and keep walking.
Oh Karen, how you have grown! The infamous lesbian long-distance relationship is if anything even more tedious than the straight variety. That was the biggest, reddest flag ever, and you spotted it straight away. Your retired professor is a control freak, all right.
WELL DONE. You deserve to buy yourself something amazing as a gift.
Karen. When you’ve learned to love yourself first and you’ve successfully increased your self esteem, you have very little patience for shady people. There’s a woman at church who I was friends with years ago. Actually, we should not have become friends. I went to her for help after my husband died and I felt lost. Her business card says “Psychotherapist” so I should have known better to keep our relationship professional only. Well, now after 7 years of not seeing or talking to each other, we learned that we both attend the same church. She immediately pounced on me with offers of re-establishing a friendship. She gave me her business card and asked me to give her a call. I saw her several times at church and hadn’t called. (She had my phone number as well). Finally, she reminded me that I hadn’t called. So the following day I did call. A ladies luncheon for Mother’s Day was coming up at church so I asked if she wanted to meet me in the lobby and we would sit together since I was going alone and so was she. She agreed. The day came for the luncheon and she stood me up. She finally showed up two hours late, and instead of looking for me she began visiting the women at their tables as if she were queen of social ettiquette. I was watching her as her back was turned away from me. I had gotten comfortable with the ladies with whom I was sitting and did not bother to seek her attention. Lo and behold, 9 months later she calls me on the phone leaving a message of such friendliness and concern about my welfare. I’m sure she did not forget that she was supposed to meet me. I have not called her back. I am not bowing to the queen and have no time for tolerating her crap. I feel she is a dodgy, unreliable person. Funny, I’ve heard that people who counsel others often need more help than their clients. LOL!
Tinkerbell,
I also have little patience anymore for shady people. In my case, I kept coming across controlling, backstabbing, and unreliable people. I used to put up with it for fear they would reject me. I now realize I deserve better. As soon as I see the behavior I detach or leave altogether depending on the situation.
I’m finding this transition very lonely. I’ve let go of the unhealthy people in my life (which includes toxic family members) and there’s not many people left. I understand that it is part of the process, to feel that loneliness in order to release it.
It seems like there’s very few people out there that are “healthy” or even close to it. So I’m not making any new friends yet.
Have you found it easier to attract healthier people? If so, did it take a long time? Is there something that helps with this in between time?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Veracity
Hi Veracity. I’m happy to tell you that when I learned to love myself it seemed that healthier rships came to me. I was as concerned as you are about discarding the ill-mannered and inconsiderate and not having many friends. But, ironically during the 23yrs of my marriage I didn’t have any friends anyway. My husband worshipped me but was very controlling. I was the people pleaser because I felt that I should be appreciative of all the care and concern he provided. After he died and after ending my affair with the MM one year later, I sought therapy for low self-esteem, high anxiety and grief counseling. It took time but working with my therapist and finding BR helped me to begin feeling better about myself. So actually the tragedy of my husband’s demise and the misery of the affair enlightened me that I needed professional help. When I first got here I was a hot mess. But, I wanted so much to feel good and change my life for the better. As I saw myself making progress I worked harder and the payoff was that people were much more responsive me. I was far more relaxed and self confident than I had ever been so I guess I carried myself that way and good people were drawn in. The more I saw my world opening up with more positivity, the more I was able to make healthy choices and develop healthier rships. It’s not magic, Veracity. Once you choose to be in a good environment it’s contagious. Good begets good and like gravitates to like. Think about it. It makes sense. Now, the introverted, self-conscious person I was has evolved to an extroverted individual who enjoys meeting and greeting strangers and carrying lengthy convos because I’m comfortable in my own skin. It’s an ongoing process and I still have my issues to work on but I am so much better than I was. BR has been a big part of enabling me to change, and CBT with my therapist. Anybody can do the same thing, Veracity. All the best, Tink.
Thanks, Tinkerbell.
“It’s not magic, Veracity. Once you choose to be in a good environment it’s contagious. Good begets good and like gravitates to like.” Ha,ha, I know it’s not magic. Had no idea how long to expect for things to change.
I was amazed at the pace of my growth when reality started kicking in – when I started facing reality and I’m hoping the pace of attracting healthier people works fairly quickly too.
I have noticed a big change in the way the unhealthy people are responding to me now that I have firmer boundaries, so it’s definitely working in that regard! Yay!
Thanks again! Veracity
Tinkerbell, she sounds like a total nutcase 🙂 I think this story is a great proof that a) when we heal, learn to love our-selves and our self-esteem is high it does NOT protect us from being approached by nars, EUMs and other people like that; b) it significantly reduces the time which takes us to realize that their behavior is unacceptable; and c) to move away from them ASAP; d) don’t internalize their BAD behavior as a sign that WE are bad.
When I read your story it instantly reminded of one weird person we have at work whose pulling those “extravagantly” irrational things on me. Now I just shrug it off – what a weirdo. Before (and before BR) I’d have totally wasted days if not months obsessing over it, thinking oh what have I done for this person to treat me in such an unfair way! Answer I know now: NO-THING. They are broken, and if I stay with them I’ll allow to make myself broken too.
Yep, Why. I used to be the same way. I always had to take on some of the blame for their bad behavior. Now, when they’re unreliable, controlling, manipulative, etc. I get away fast cuz that’s on them, not on me. I know who I am.
Karen,
That’s fantastic and it gets so much easier to dump the shady people when they cross your path in the future.
Zero tolerance.
I’m I’m my early 50s keep my self fit etc etc , I met a woman who recently broke my heart I fell in love, 8 months it lasted introduced and felt part of her family and freinds, my prevous relationship to this was 4 years ago and that lasted 26 years , she said she can only let an animal as in a dog into her life as she has a fragile shell and , I’m a creative soul, write poetry act etc, which she initially liked , I was anxious for it to work and the harder it tried to please I guess the more anxious I got, and she said I was emotionally weak, which if you knew my history, I’ve been through a lot , had counselling and the counsellor said I’m a HSP a highly sensitive person, which if you call empathy for others and compassionate suppose I am, the lady I was dating go had two long term relationships her first was an alcoholic ,the second was 10 years younger than her ,and a cheater, I am 5 years older , she dated quite a few men over the last 8 years and said I was 90% at the start, but my aniexty probably scared her, she likes to keep her exes as freinds ,I counted 5 on Facebook alone which I found a bit off putting, I said I won’t do as to hard I still love her, so my question is an emotionally unavailable female a rare thing , as I very wary now of my own heart as I gave it fully open. Best wishes to you all
Ray, sorry, she wasn’t ready. She’s definitely EUM if she declares she can’t let humans into her life. There are many EUM women, but (like me) they might be aware and work in progress? I hope you won’t feel too wary to date. Just keep eyes and ears open. All the best.
Ray, there are definitely EUM women, they just tend to manifest themselves differently. Because single women are so devalued in society and always have been, we choose to manifest our EUM-ness by chasing after EUMs instead of being an “obvious” EUM. You were probably not EUM enough for her!
Diane
good comment. I am wondering if i am possibly chasing an EUM, as I am being held back from meeting a guy that my friend says would be good for me. You can read my earlier post.
Ray it’s great that you have the skill to spot the red flag behaviour of the emotionally unavailable, so good on you for that.
If you’re uncomfortable dating someone who has somehow managed to get through an excessive number of partners even in as long as eight years, you’re doing yourself a favour by paying attention to your instincts. Likewise, ‘friending’ their exes — meh. These hoarders of exes are completely deluded. They think it’s smart to collect exes because ‘well at least I got something out of it!’. Some of them think it makes them look desirable, as if their exes just can’t bear to live without them. Others frankly look around and realise that without trash-picking through the flotsam of one wrecked relationship after another, they wouldn’t actually have very many ‘friends’ at all. They think they’re being clever and thrifty, re-cycling and re-purposing crashed relationships, but the rest of us just see a pretty damning indictment of their character. They’re like people who are proud to have owned and driven so many different cars — ‘look at my good taste and popularity!’ they insinuate. But delve deeper into how they’ve got through an entire car park full of cars in their time, and they chuckle and tell you it’s because they seem to have got into so many ‘little bumps’ and so needed to buy another car every 6 months or so. They think it’s a funny little boastful story about themselves that shows how easygoing they are and how much they love cars, but the rest of us just see a totally reckless driver who’s going to end up killing somebody. Red flag.
Grizelda, I like what you say about relationship hoarders. I have not come across those until exEUM. He is friends with all his exes. And his present gf is also friends with all his exes. Like Facebook friends and the whole thing. Going to their weddings and birthdays. I at first thought it was me who was odd. Or that exEUM was an extreme case and since they were all getting just fine then it must be my problem and my problem only. Except now, that I think about it, I don’t know a single person who is actively friends with their exes and who is also a mature adult in a fulfilling relationship.
It’s interesting that you say “that shows how easygoing they are”. This was a major thing with exEUM at the very end and now, after the dissolution of the relationship (we work together but rarely actually on the same thing). “Don’t take yourself so seriously!” he told me just recently. That’s an odd comment to make in midst of a project and many hours I spent working on it. Maybe I am being too paranoid now, after the whole experience, but this whole concept of an “easygoing” guy is another word for a person who dodges responsibility for his actions and words. The most “easygoing” guys I found lately were actually dead serious about their jobs, the effort they made at work and the attention they were giving to their family. I don’t know what to make of it. And a part of me wants to agree with an exEUM that I am indeed this boring person who takes too many things seriously. But on the other hand, it makes me think that our relationship is solely professional and I have no desire to be “joking” with him and thus contact him when absolutely necessary. The same actually goes for everyone in our company. Sorry for rambling.
I have major red flag for any ex collectors who remain friends and Facebook addicts. I have experienced this myself, pictures of the ex, comments about ‘all my beautiful friends’ saying ‘looking beautiful’ to other women etc. Ahh don’t mind me just your girlfriend. Not for long!
Why you’re right. I too don’t know anyone who is actively friends with their exes and who is also a mature adult in a fulfilling relationship either. Because one cancels out the possibility of the other. A person cannot seriously be committed to their current partner if they are still diddling around with their exes in any way. When people are making a game of Twister out of their relationships, keeping just one foot planted in their current relationship (and having the temerity to claim they’re fully committed), but putting one toe onto someone from a previous relationship, another toe onto someone from a fling they had overseas eight years ago, a hand onto the ex-spouse, three fingers of the opposite hand on a childhood sweetheart ‘who’s married with kids, so…’, and one finger onto someone at work who flatters and fancies them… no. Just, no. Their current relationship can only therefore be nothing but the most casual and unstable arrangement because they are simply investing time, attention, energy, thoughts and emotions — and although they won’t admit to it, probably some element of hope — elsewhere. Fine if both parties are doing this to each other and invariably racking up ever-longer lists of ‘exes who are friends’ while ironically being completely baffled as to how after all these years of effort they still haven’t managed to find someone to build a life with. But it’s extremely unfair if one party is firmly present and committed in the relationship while the other one is tooling around keeping lines open with exes.
Oh that term ‘easygoing’ — it’s a word that’s used and abused. It’s a positive thing if it means pleasant fun and good relaxed times. But it’s a red flag word if it translates to doormat, as in ‘why can’t you be my ideal easygoing woman who laughs it off when I behave badly and shit all over them?’
Great post Grizelda! Wish you would post more – I miss your wisdom.
Ray
This woman has major problems with her EU-ness being only the tip of the iceberg. She is EU and is now emotionally shutting down. It almost sounds as though she had been intentionally making poor choices and as she holds on to them, she has little/no self esteem. She cannot be with you because you are a decent person which she cannot handle.
She may not even be fully emotionally present to her dog.
“We change our behavior when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of changing.” Tony Robbins
Natalie, Oh Natalie… I CANNOT even BEGIN to tell you how much you have transformed my entire life. I thank God that I somehow landed on this site when I was desperately searching for some sort of unbiased answer and reason for my behavior. Somethings can’t even be explained to others, too painful to fathom and in most cases probably too ashamed or afraid of judgement. It’s crazy because I would sometimes feel like i’m about to slip up again and all I have to do is find something…anything from this site (whether or not it pertains to my situation) to get myself back on track. Ha! It’s like a bible.
To be honest, I didn’t realize I had a problem until I stumbled across this page. I felt like my pain was always everyone else’s fault but mine. I believed I contributed nothing to find myself where I always was… I was NEVER accountable. It all started in high school where I had a habit of attracting older men because I felt as though they were mature, and were serious about wanting a long term mutual relationship. (Why I was desperate for love at 16 I couldn’t tell you). I remember my first heartbreak involved my first boyfriend who cheated on me because I chose to hold on to my virginity. This was hard to understand and painful to accept but I moved on and found myself in a worse situation with my next “situation.” I call it that because every time I would bring up a relationship, he would brush it under the rug so I became accustomed to this EUM and of course, everything was ALWAYS on his terms. This was one of the most painful situations I feel I have ever put myself through because of all the things I was willing to put aside to keep him in my life. I detracted from me and devalued me, I no longer even knew who I was with this man… because even if I felt I did, his ways always made more sense so I succumbed to them. My next situation…the same thing…felt like I had to force the relationship but this time it worked… only if I was willing to give up sex which I did…crying in the process…out of this decision I ended up pregnant all because I was afraid if I turned another man down I would be single for life.
I ended up in a 3 year relationship with this man and you can imagine the chaos, living with a man I barely knew while trying to raise a new born baby he never wanted in the first place. He was “never” there…hardly ever home, I asked this man to marry me and he told me no 3 times. I cried day in day out…put my health at risk. Couldn’t understand why this man who had practically come in and put my life at a complete halt was refusing to acknowledge the sacrifices I had made to keep him. I couldn’t even go into details on some of the things I put up with because I would be writing forever. All while i’m trying to finish my bachelors, trying to figure out who I am. I eventually found the strength to leave and raise this child on my own… I was alone anyways, so it felt no different with him being gone.
After that I ended up with a man who was involved with another woman…tried to get him to leave her for me… after a year of being involved with him and having to accept the disrespect and/or idea of being shared with another woman who knew nothing of me even though he claimed he loved me and made me feel special it was never enough of course. I was always left emptier and emptier…all for what? Sex wasn’t even all that and he had nothing to offer me. After him, I was back to the ex that cheated on me in high school…out of loneliness…after that I found myself involved with a married man…that caused me so much pain… of course in the end when she found out he chose her…worst of them all was this recent situation that I found myself in with a man who was for once SINGLE but hurting from his past relationship. I had this CRAZY idea in my head that I could heal him, and when he was finally ready to love again he would commit to me. In the mean time I was willing to make all the sacrifices, pay for all our dinners and drinks cause he spent all his money on his ex even though he had a career, buy him things, cater to him and HIM only, accept that he would never call or text to check up on me, and maybe he didn’t care to get to really know me because he was still hurting. Urg I made so many excuses for this ass clown. This was my breaking point. I said this pattern has to die and it’s going to start with me. I realized out of all this ass clowns I was so HEAD OVER HEELS about I have YET to meet a man “fit” enough to meet my child.
I look back on all the nights I stayed up crying, not eating, now while trying to finish my masters and raise a child and for what? why was I so desperate for love. Even when it seemed like I was meeting clowns that were only willing to take take and take until they had completely sucked me dry and then just leave. Tired of pleasing and assuming my love would be enough for the both of us. Tired of putting myself into these emotional bottomless pits and expecting that my generosity would at one point be reciprocated. Tired of the pain I was causing myself, why or when did I ever think this was as good as it gets. Where did my self-love go? Why did I have so much to give even after I had been hurt so bad? Then go chasing them when they left because I wanted more. Did this have anything to do with the relationship I NEVER had with my mother?
It hurts in the moment but I feel free today because I realized all it takes is a decision. I decided that I was GOING TO LOVE ME. I was GOING TO PUT ME FIRST. I was GOING TO STOP PLEASING PEOPLE. I was GOING TO FOCUS ON ME so I can attract ONLY THOSE that reflect that. It’s just good to know that theirs hope… and I am in such a happy place and that I feel like I am finally free and I can and will no longer TOLERATE anything less than what I deserve. Nothing wrong with waiting, nothing wrong with being single…ITS OKAY to be SINGLE and there is DEFINITELY NOTHING WRONG WITH WANTING TO BE LOVED AND TO LOVE.
Freefinally, I love your post. Sorry for all your pain, but it resonates. And gives me a nudge: it does take a decision!
FreeFinally I’m so glad to hear you’ve turned the corner and set new standards for yourself. Words that come out of their mouths are just meaningless noises unless their actions match them — this is something all of us here have had to learn for ourselves, usually through a very painful and costly process.
FreeFinally. So happy you have turned a corner. When you learn to love yourself first, life is worth living because you avoid a lot of hurt and pain. Good for you!
Seems like common sense but when you’re in the thick of it being pushed & pulled, adored then ignored, u make all sorts of excuses for his behavior which u know is unacceptable, you are truly blinded to logical reasoning. Your inner voice tells u to walk away but u choose to ignore it because u think you’re in love, or that if you’re patient & don’t complain then in time they’ll love u back & want to treat u better. And when u ignore that inner voice my friends, that’s how u truly lose yourself, doing things that are out of character and accepting all sorts of things you’d never accept. I can’t stress enough how essential no contact is to enable the fog to lift so you can find your way back to YOU. You see the dynamic in a whole new light and take the focus off him and put it on you. Understanding your role and what triggered your actions and reactions are essential to healing, learning, and growing. It’s empowering. It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done to break contact with someone I loved and thought I needed, but our relationship was toxic to me. He was like a drug, felt amazing for short bursts of time but I knew it was harming me (especially my feelings of self-worth & self-esteem). Going no contact and getting ME back, my power, my boundaries, my mojo, felt better than he ever made me feel. I realized he just wasn’t “that special”, and off that pedestal he came. Not only that but the whole damn pedestal was destroyed too for anyone else to be put on! When u chase what’s not given freely by someone, it’s degrading. Not everyone who’s in your heart is meant to be in your life. Love you Nat. Your blogs have been a godsend.
“I realized he just wasn’t “that special”, and off that pedestal he came. Not only that but the whole damn pedestal was destroyed too for anyone else to be put on! When u chase what’s not given freely by someone, it’s degrading. Not everyone who’s in your heart is meant to be in your life. Love you Nat. Your blogs have been a godsend.”
Whenever we put people on pedestals we are setting are selves up for disappointment/resentment and to potentially be abused.
You’re so right about chasing someone being degrading. There’s a man in my social circle that’s good looking and single. He’s a total flirt and very EU. There’s a handful of women throwing themselves at him (literally!). I just watch amazed and recognize that when I chase a man I must look somewhat like that…desperate. I don’t want to be that person. I deserve so much better. I see it so clearly now and I’m so grateful!!!
Yes! Yes! Yes! You only have to see it once and the blinders come off forever. You can never “unsee” what now is clear. Good for you GIR and Veracity for smashing the pedestal and reclaiming your vision! Yes, it’s desperate and degrading to chase after someone. A kind of prison, really. A trap of needing another’s validation and affirmation while giving up your own self-respect in the process. We have to break those chains and run out laughing into the sunlight again, free!
So true Veracity and Wiser, can’t agree more.
As far as the chasing goes, I’ll also add that as far as I can tell from observing his behavior (I’ve become an observer in social situations these days, a student of behavior to help me figure things out), he appeared to be setting women up to compete with one another for his attention. It was fascinating (and painful) to watch. He, of course, got a huge ego stroke every time they fawned over him/competed with each other. He absolutely craves attention, constantly. The women also kept upping the ante. One actually took his face and put it between her breasts on the dance floor!
I noticed this sort of behavior with the last guy who asked me out. (We didn’t go out because I realized he never actually listened to me…just pretended…). We were at a party after the fact and he was trying to win me over. After that didn’t work, he started flirting with someone in front of me and checking to see my reaction. It was so obvious and such a gift to me! What jerks trying to play on women’s insecurities by trying to get them to compete with each other.
By the way, it didn’t work of course. I yawned, starting chatting with the person next to me and didn’t give him the reassurance he was looking for. 🙂
“After that didn’t work, he started flirting with someone in front of me and checking to see my reaction.”
Hmmm… Reminds me of somebody. It sure hurts when you are inside, but on the other hand, when you are out of the dynamics, you really wonder, How utterly silly is this whole situation? I mean not even a 12 year old would behave like that. Which, btw., makes me his Mother (in his head). Sigh. V.
Absolutely, V! It hurt very much when I was in the triangle and didn’t recognize what was happening. Now I can see it for what it is, a childish and hurtful bid for attention and reassurance. He is definitely looking for Mom. Veracity
“By the way, it didn’t work of course. I yawned, starting chatting with the person next to me and didn’t give him the reassurance he was looking for. :)”
You’re my hero!!!! Love ittt
GIR, Veracity and Wiser. Your words describe exactly what I went through and the misery I endured with the MM. I think I had actually lost my mind. The way I allowed him to treat me was shocking and totally out of character, and yet I was unable to help myself. I hated how I was such a doormat and put up with outlandish disrespect. He was like my drug that I was helpless to resist and leave alone. Finally, he did something that was quite harmless compared to everything else he had done. It as the straw that broke the camel’s back. I became outraged and went NC. All his crap had built up like a volcano and burst forth non-stop. NC allowed me to withdraw into my own self analysis. I knew I would never subject myself again to the profound mistreatment. And, ironically, he was the proverbial wolf in sheep’s clothing. He had a great sense of humor, enough charisma for 10 men and was a very interesting conversationalist. He never raised his voice and never showed anger. Those qualities kept me hooked. That kind of man is hardest to get away from because there is no physical abuse but at the same time you’re not realizing the mental/emotional abuse that is taking place. Anyway, when I came to my senses I began to realize how really bad for me he was. A SOCIOPATH. Actually, the fact that he was married was the least of the evils in that rship. Anyway,I didn’t mean to ramble on. What you ladies have said took me back there all over again. But, at least now I can say I will never find myself in that den of iniquity again. And, instead of feeling regret and remorse, I feel victorious because I got ME back again.
Thank you for this wonderful post. I have been NC for nearly 8 months (I admit, a few rants on my end, with vague responses from him), but I never have sought to ask him back or to imply that we should try to work it out. I know that it was not the relationship that I want, but hung in there because of an attraction, the sex, the fun times..etc. All the wrong reasons as what I want is a loving, committed relationship with trust, respect, love and honor. He blew hot and cold, would chase me then retreat, would keep his hidden plans and agenda, and his secret life. We kind of broke up mutually…I was waring thin and reacted to him with “emotion” and he was lining up a new woman. In any event, we broke more or less at a time when we both knew would were not meeting each other’s needs. Still it was acrimonious (my sibling had just passed away and my EUM exited soon after, providing no support to my family with whom he had spent two Thanksgivings, two Christmas holidays and an Easter, as well as many other events with my family and friends because he was estranged from his extended family). Bad timing, but not so unusual for a man who is so out of touch with his emotions. I miss him still, but do not want him back and have not so asked. I am moving on with MYSELF for the time being. It’s all good.
This is such a great post, I have been helped massively by Natalie and baggage reclaim I did the NC for 18 months I was happier than ever and stronger I found things I want to do and plan to move and travel and found more happiness and closeness with family and things that matter most, then the AC keeps texting and wanting to see me so I saw him why I really dont know was it curiosity but what I discovered was an eye opener because I dont know what I ever saw in a person like this that is the same as 17 years ago that won’t leave my life wants to know about me but give me no relationship which is why I ended it, is it friendship he wants, he offers nothing and I can see in hindsight this stupid girl I was that needed love so much as to get involved with him in the first place all those years ago. Now I see without the rose coloured glasses a selfish, controllingm rude arrogant man with no empathy and only wanting what he wants with no concern for anybody else, I felt no attraction which is really good perhaps lack of those female hormones you talk of has helped, I just wanted the meeting to be over and for him to go but sadly he is stuck in the past in his head he had really believed we would pick up again after 4 years of no sleeping together after 4 years, I wonder where he has been in that time giving me the line of I was the last woman he slept with….anyway you will get there my friends just keep it up time and space you will grow and be stronger and look back and wonder how you could have wasted time in your previous lives on such losers there are so many wonderful people out there if you could only see.
Great comment, Josie. I am wondering what these people (not just men) think they are giving? I understand they feel impoverished even by the crumbs they gave us but how do they name what is that they think we should be interested in? Like, really. They cannot give consistency, they cannot give reliability, they cannot give integrity and truth. So what is it then? Just wondering how they define the specific “gifts” they think they have to offer. Or is it only just this vague “be with me” and “maybe have a family one day”? When my exEUM tried to pull this on me, I kept asking him “Yes, okay, but what do you mean SPECIFICALLY?”. No answer. And of course he got angry and why did I have to be “so damn negative about everything”.
Why & Josie,
I believe that these men (I use this word loosely) still believe that we are the same foolish women who will still fall for their mind games. So because they still think they are so great, they still try the same old lines expecting you to bite. The great thing is when we realize that this crap they are pulling has no affect on us and we can see these clowns for what they are–empty shells, selfish and arrogrant without any clue how to treat woman. Good Luck on your journies!
Nat, more than any piece of yours I have read recently, this piece shows me how much you have grown as a person and in turn how much I have grown 🙂
I remember reading the same message you have in this post in a variety of older posts and just reading this it all clicked into place. Because I get it now. And you know what, I have just realised that you have been growing along with us all, and you get it now too.
Onwards and upwards for all of us. Whatever stage we may be in now, blogs like this will help us everyday to be our best, most loving, strong and worthy selves.
Bx
Thanks for this post Nat. It was refreshing to see in writing that yep, its OK for us chix to want to be loved, be in a rship, just like anyone else. So many other columns and unfortunately, colleagues, seem to think we older chix should either give up or crawl under a rock and die. So surprizing that so many think that I should be totally OK with being 100% alone, 24/7, a situation that would devastate them. Last time I looked, I hadnt grown another head or a third eye between the existing one. BR is so helpful in pinpointing red flags, suspicious behaviors, so we hopefully don’t make the same mistakes again. Learned a good many harsh lessons the past 4 years so I am very much sadder but also a lot wiser. Today, an outdoor film fest is in town and I will avoid it; AC will most definitely be there and the crowd will be all locals; a recipe for pain and loneliness. Valentines day will find me snowshoeing round a 14 mile lake, getting exercise, improving my fitness rather than hoping for miracles, Sunday is a day of home improvement which at least gives tangible results, visual confirmation that you’re not mindlessly accepting ones fate, that you’re fighting back. Just wish I weren’t so tired after work so I could get more done faster. Trying once again to refinance the house so I can have a little extra to pay off unsecured debt so I can throw away the career and leave. Hopefully some day, I can find a healthy, compatible partner again but for now the plan is to avoid unnecessary hurt and work towards getting out.
Nat: a very appropriate post for Valentines Day weekend, even if you’d forgotten!
Some posters here may recall I have talked about having had NO committed serious relationships.
I have tried hard and also not tried (‘it happens when you least expect it” – my friends have told me that for 20 years…), been afraid and a bit shy yet tried to get out there. I have internet dated, gone speed dating. I have lost weight (altho was never fat), changed my look,my hair, worked on self esteem, some depression and anxiety, how I come across to others, being authentic.
Finally, as I near towards 40, I think I’ve never looked better or been more at ease in my own skin. But as MaryW/ Diane and others say: this is a difficult age. The only ones left seem more dysfunctional. One guy I met for one date from the internet said I seemed nice but said he’d not meet me again as feared he’d only like me more, and by then I’d be too old to have children (NB I was 36 at the time and so was he).
I got involved with a MM last year. Its over now, and this website has really helped. Still trying to get over:
a) the hurt or being disrespected and mistreated. Not only was he ALL of the things Natalie says MM affairs are but he also had another woman on the go, who he lied about. IM ashamed to say he would message in front of me, told me to leave his apartment when he wanted to skype her and then he wanted to see us both – despite her having a new boyfriend. I called it a day. I felt bad for the wife: she sounded kind and loyal. I would have hated her to EVER find out. If only he had seemed to care and respect her more than his own ego, or the other other woman. It felt like he was ultimately treating wife and me badly – and chasing the other other woman to please her. Not that I know: he definitely lied to us all. Maybe the wife was having affairs too!
and b) trying to forgive myself ….for letting myself continue to be the ‘poop on his shoe’ as one poster (Nina Nonarchi I think it was you) and sleeping with him after I knew I was being disrespected and used to stroke his ego and fill gaps in his own self esteem.
The problem is: I KNOW I deserve a good non AC relationship. Maybe its bad luck, or maybe it fate that I am still single? Maybe Ive just not been in the ‘right’ place. I thought my self esteem was okay until MM (then it took a tumbling….) but I feel I have learnt a lot about boundaries. Maybe it needed to be stronger. Im not always confident, but my job requires me to be so.
I don’t do casual sex (until MM, I guess!..that was his justification for messing me around ” we were only ever casual”) but have had a couple of one night stands, years ago. The first was mainly because I was getting on and felt if I didn’t lose my virginity I’d NEVER feel relaxed/unafraid/at ease with men. I am glad I did that as Id still be a virgin if I had not… I felt it boosted my self esteem. But of course none of the casual guys turned into real things: in fact it transpired later that two of them were actually in relationships. But that seems less bad in your 20s and early 30s (compared to MM who is mid 40s).
But I look around me and think: hang on, that was years ago. As someone in their 30s (now very very very late 30s…) if I am intelligent, attractive, funny and warm, how come I am single? THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH ME THAT I’M NOT REALISING.
I’ve never cared either way about the day itself, but after MM, its a year to tell myself that I love myself and have boundaries.
(I always thought when people say ‘they’re so arrogant/vain/ selfish: they love themselves” it was negative!)
I cant but think that even with the best self esteem ever (the right side of arrogant or vain!) one may still be single, and wanting a relationship.
There is surely only so much self improvement one can do?
Can’t Believe
Just because WE do our personal work, doesn’t mean potential partners are moved to do the same which has nothing to do with us. Often, depending on where one lives, where one goes, whether you find someone suitable, is entirely dependent on who is there. You could be a supermodel and if there’s no suitable partners, you’d still be alone. No offense, but I am hearing two things; you don’t have a wide breadth of experience with men and you have no baseline data as to what a good rship should look like, and you’re very lonely, hence the MM. First, what is it you want; if you don’t want casual, MM’s, don’t go there. Yep, you will be hit on by both, they mayn’t be honest about who they are; then you leave, NOW. If you want someone cultured, who shares your values, look in those places/venues you enjoy. For instance; I am fairly well read, a serious enviro, hate TV and ski bum culture. I meet men at running/ski/fat bike races, dances, art stuff, places that draw fit, educated, financially heathy folk from outside. I avoid all bars and any place that draws the dope smoking, ski bum, pro gun and mining crowd. Sounds harsh perhaps but in middle age and beyond, most folk are set in their ways and do not change. Yep, it is a matter of diminishing numbers as we age as we chix tend to overall take better care of ourselves and live longer and better than many men. (Ray, why is this?!) 99% of the men you meet will be unsuitable, that’s just how it is. Read a good many of Nats past posts; this’ll give you a lot of insight into red flag behaviors, stuff to be aware of and avoid before you invest too heavily.
ICBIFT, I don’t think there is a single thing wrong with you! Of course you still want love and long for a wonderful partner in your life. We all do! If anyone is a poster child for feeling like “something is wrong with me because I’m still single” I would be it! Divorced ten years with NO relationships except the crappy, humiliating one that brought me to this site. And that was three years ago. No boyfriend, no lover, no husband in sight. Would I like to love someone again and be loved? Hell yes! But I no longer believe it’s necessary for a happy life. It can’t be. I know too many people who are very happy being alone, in fact happier than they were in their long-term marriages or happier now that they’ve given up degrading themselves by running after people because they thought they couldn’t bear to be alone. Happy to enjoy their work, their friends, their freedom to make their own destiny. To be free of the drug that says “I need others to make me happy.” I’d much rather be alone than be one of those desperate women that Veracity wrote about above.
No, there is nothing wrong with you. We just live in a very difficult time in history for relationships. We live in an age of very immature, narcissistic people. It appears that men (and of course women too, but I think men especially) in this country can live long into their middle years without ever really growing up. Our culture is all about “what’s in it for me” instead of grooming people on how to maturely love and treat others. I personally think on-line dating is an abomination, where seeing other humans as commodities to “pick from” like you were choosing a new car out of a catalog, is becoming the new norm. Or as a friend lamented to me when she was devastated by a guy she had met on line and thought was the “one,” who wined and dined and love bombed her until the day he dumped her because he was still on line searching for someone “even better.”
I like the advice given to Francis (Diane Lane) by free spirit Katherine in “Under the Tuscan Sun.” She says, “work on your house, and forget about it!” Brilliant. Work on your house (your own life) and forget about it (worrying about when, how, if you’ll find love.) If it happens, fine. If it doesn’t happen, fine. Doesn’t mean you give up looking and putting those intentions out there. You do what you can and leave the rest in the hands of God. But you don’t put off *living* and being happy until you are partnered up with someone. The time for joy is NOW.
ICBIFT – It’s good to hear from you again!
If you would like a website that gives you a good laugh plus plenty of food for thought, try http://www.chumplady.com. This is a website set up by someone of a similar mind to Natalie Lue, but more with an orientation towards leaving cheating partners.
ChumpLady will give you insights into what it’s like to be on the receiving end of an unfaithful partner – which is sobering, if you find you like MMs – and also insights into just how scary it can be out there with partners.
I find that it helps me to be grateful for being single. It’s not so much sour grapes as a hearty dose of real life, intruding on the fantasy of ‘If Only I Was Partnered With A Nice, Nice Man’. These ladies – most of them are women – were partnered with Nice, Nice Men, until it turned out that they weren’t.
Wow, I am so truly glad I have stumbled upon Baggage Reclaim. Nat, your posts have been so helpful as I have struggled coming to terms with dating a sociopath for a year of my life, finally realizing how toxic and painful the relationship truly was, breaking it off, and then seeing him move on to another innocent female within days, this time getting engaged and planning a wedding.
I feel like I have been desiring love and wanting a relationship to do absolutely nothing but fill a void that I thought was real. Lots of growth and learning for me, but you are an immense help as I continue my journey. I look forward to reading your posts and enjoy your Facebook page.
@ Selfseeker75:
Dear S.,
Before anybody starts throwing stones: you are not alone! It’s human to want to love and feel wanted as a woman. As you did, I’ve spent years loving and dreaming of a married man while I was married.
This is my experience: they don’t undold at once but are very careful not to reveal their true colors. But once they do and you KNOW their intentions, there is no turning back. This is what I did: admitted I made a mistake, cried, mourned my love and dreams for a year (yes, I know:stupid!), told myself I needed that at that particular point in my life, discovered WHY I did it through therapy and BR (Daddy issue of rejection), forgave myself, forgave him and my husband, focused on beautiful things that fed my soul: books, art, friends and my home with my husband: I started listen to him, try to compromise as much as I could and accepted the nature of our relationship: even though we could not be fresh lovers, there were moments I cherished with him as well: our long history together, some aspects of his gentle personality etc. I observed him in a different light and tried to accept him. More than that, I digged deep within myself and grew in my self-acceptance. Only then, when I saw myself as a unique, nice, kind, giving, intelligent woman I was able to become ‘clean’ again. The affair served some purpose : I grew, my marriage grew and MM just disappeared from my head. It took a long time to get over anger and disbelief though. Even now sometimes I ask myself: “who was that woman?”. But I know we all carry different layers of our personality and she simply no longer existed when I decided to block his number and accept that I wanted to feel loved, because I’m human. I just made a mistake of choosing the wrong path and got bitten by a snake. I survived, and you will, too. Focus on good qualities your husband has, be grateful for your children. Look inside you and see the beautiful you that wanted to love. But start loving yourself first.
Ps
Is any one else kind of appalled at the kind of messages the book/film “50 Shades of Grey” sends out? I read a synopsis (and spoiler) and thought: Natalie would not think it was a good idea. Nor is the way the relationship develops realistic (if you’re a people pleaser you win?!)
See the brilliant campaign #50dollarsnot50shades.
Ah ICBIFT! Don’t get me started on 50 Shades. The very notion that a broken man with a serious personality disorder can be redeemed by the love of a good woman is completely offensive. They’re telling us we need to start feeling differently about physical and mental abuse, and that makes me angry. And let’s not forget that many ‘Anas’ don’t survive their ‘Christians’.
In UK law, no individual can consent to their own ‘offenses against the person’ — it’s an impossible legal concept — no attacker can legitimately claim ‘well she said it would be ok for me to hit her with this broken bottle, so I did, it’s what she told me to do, so I’m not guilty of harming her’. So why would this be any different? I’m fed up to the back teeth with these predators operating in the typical way they do, that makes it appear their victims consented to the physical and emotional harm they do to them.
@Grizelda/ICan’tBelieve, Don’t even get me started. I have written about this travesty many times. It sends out this horrible message, one that we have been getting for a very long time, mind you, not just from this book. And women say, oh, but we know it’s fiction. Okay, maybe intellectually you know it’s fiction, but I know when I was involved with my EUM, all of those messages of “hang in there, the brooding, emotionally-scarred man will wake up and learn to love” was there in the back of my head and I’d never even read the books. I could name a ton of books/movies that espouse the same general idea. Starting with my fav book, Jane Eyre. I mean, really, he locks his wife in the attic and this is a good prospect?
Agreed. Little girls/boys get fed these fairy tales when they’re very young and buy into the fairy tale and end up very disappointed. I used to think reading these fairy tales to children was harmless, or the Disney movies and others with similar messages were harmless. I don’t believe that anymore. I work in education and I make a point of pointing out that it is a fairy tale and therefore, make believe and that in real life, it doesn’t work like it does in fairy tales. It feels a bit like a kill joy, but I do it in a kind compassionate, age appropriate way to try and balance out the message of totally unrealistic garbage that sets them up for getting stuck in these ridiculous fantasies.
Wow this is great Veracity as usual I agree with you and do the best I can to dispel these false myths too! V.
Veracity
Ironically, my students, who are more outdoor oriented and real get it. Sadly, it is women in the community, middle aged, often unattractive and unhealthy, no self esteem, who’ve chosen multiple lousy men out of desperation who are lapping this up; ditto with the original books. Some of us kick a$$ chix are offering a women’s self-defense course for free. Far cheaper than driving 80 miles round trip and wasting good money on that cinematic cluster@#$.
Noquay, It’s great that your students aren’t buying into it. I’m not too surprised about the middle aged women lapping it up. I would imagine it serves as a very good distraction and an addition to their fantasy life.
Offering a free self-defense course as an alternative, what a wonderful idea, Noquay! Hopefully you’ll get lots of takers. It’s a great way to enhance self-esteem/personal power.
Wankfest. Pure and simple. I think I could write better porn than this, but I’m not going to.
Normally I try to be pretty tolerant about ‘whatever gets you through the night’, but this stuff is really unhelpful.
Yes I get you Ethelreda — not to overlook ‘whatever floats your boat’ and all, and how healthy it is for women in particular (who are universally raised to be the most socially and sexually oppressed gender) to explore what they want.
However. When the man in question is literally nothing more than a spanker/hitter/tie-er-up/torturer — that’s all he does, that’s all he is, day and night, in and out of clothing — when taking that degrading activity away would create a total vacuum where the man once stood — THIS is what is dangerous for women.
To the uninitiated, including the ladies that Noquay describes above, they need to know there is nothing else to these men. There isn’t because there can’t be — they operate on one level and one level only. Forever. No, he won’t sit in an ice-cream cafe with you romantically sharing a chocolate shake with one of those two-sipper heart-shaped straws and then take you home and blindfold you and get you naked. There’s no flopping together into a pile of colourful crunchy leaves on a warm autumn day before running, laughing, into the woods to share a sweet and loving kiss before a little bit of sexy spanking later. Other men, who have lots of different things on their menus, and who are not obsessed with control, degradation and punishment, can provide this. But not men like this one. There’s only ever the control, degradation and punishment, because there is no other possible side to them.
I also feel that there are already too many “common” sexual practices which aren’t actually enjoyable for many women (because they are humiliating and/or physically painful for us), yet we often agree to them because we either don’t want to appear “prudish” or we don’t want to loose the guy. At least this used to be the case for me.
Movies like “50 Shades” might make this list even longer (according to various synopses and reviews of the film, Anastasia isn’t actually enjoying herself when he spanks her, but rather puts up with it because she loves him). This worries me.
Absolutely, EllyB.
There are certain things I don’t enjoy, and therefore I won’t do them. I never have. And that is final.
And anyone who wants them can go elsewhere and have them all he wants, but he won’t be having me ever again.
Agreed! Diane you don’t know how many times I have hoped to finally meet a person who would see what I saw in Jane Eyre’s story: that the fact that his wife was reclosed and labeled crazy was horrible!
I know that Natalie has given an interview on this but if I recall correctly she was not of the same opinion on this; or maybe she didn’t touch this aspect and focused on other stuff. V.
sorry – reclosed=recluse – :p
I’m sorry I think I got this damned word wrong again. English is not my mothertongue. But I think you got what I meant 🙂 V.
V, Your English is fantastic! I would never have guessed that it was not your first language.
Thank you Veracity! You made me real happy – *smile* V.
You’re very welcome, V! 🙂
Jane Eyre isn’t as bad as you might think. Rochester was tricked into his first marriage: there’s clear fraud involved, and then he’s stuck against his will with the crazy wife that no one else wanted – especially not her own family. There were very few asylums where she could be left, so she’s locked in the attic instead, with a carer of exactly the type who you would find working in an asylum anyway.
Divorce was almost impossible in those days, and it was not uncommon for a man with a mad wife to take up with a live-in substitute. English novelist William Makepeace Thackeray was in this situation, but never managed to find anyone who would live with him permanently.
Jane is a good role model. She refuses to go ahead with a bigamous marriage because she has strong principles, and would rather face impoverishment and possibly death by starvation rather than live with Rochester in a way that she can’t square with her moral code. She loves him, but she will not let her heart rule her head. This is a very powerful BR-type message – she has sufficient self-respect and dignity not to put up with this kind of fake marriage, and she immediately goes No Contact!
Ditto the business with St John, her cousin, the ghastly evangelical minister and missionary. She can’t enter into a relationship with a man who doesn’t love her, and who intends to treat her like a sort of necessary sex-doll and slave. Jane’s sense of self-respect is too great for that.
Yes, she eventually marries Rochester, but only once he’s a broken man – and he has learned from his mistakes and is ready to be grateful for good love. Jane is under no illusions about the kind of man he is, and she is able to marry him from a strong place – she is financially independent, and prepared to take him on from that place of greater equality and dignity for both of them.
OK, so it’s a story, but it’s not such a bad one, after all.
PS. If you are interested in Bertha Mason’s back story, read Jean Rhys’ novel Wild Sargasso Sea.
Hi Ethelreda, I agree with everything you say about Jane Eyre; it’s the Rochester bit I don’t appreciate very much.
I wanted to thank you for the suggestion of the novel Wide Sargasso Sea. I remember vaguely having seen a film about it when I was young and have looked ever since to find the title of the film with no luck. You have no idea the favour you’ve done me – I’ve been looking for this story for years! V.
Oh, Rochester is a dickhead for most of the novel. No doubt about it. All that macho swaggering and mind-games. Too awful for words.
Jane is wonderful; she doesn’t fall for any of it, except possibly the Blanche Ingram thing. But that was an unforgiveable piece of dickhead behaviour on Rochester’s part – to use them all like that. I know they were awful people, but still …
It’s a relief when he finally gets hit on the head with the burning beam in the house, and has some sense knocked into him.
Oh, and it’s WIDE Sargasso Sea, not Wild – silly me. But I’m glad you found it!
Etheldra: Jane Eyre is my favorite novel and yes, there is much to recommend is as a love story. But in general the idea of a brooding, harsh, sarcastic guy who treats you well one minute and ignores you the next (as Rochester does throughout much of the novel) is a bad prospect. Also, when he offers her the role of “other woman” she does run off, but not for long. She comes back before knowing that his wife is dead. I mean, it all worked out for her, however, this kind of guy doesn’t work out for the vast majority of us, lol
Nat…brill post …
Yes it is being honest enough to admit we want to share things with someone and have another truly in our life, because we want to have the joy that real intimacy and mutual caring can give us- not just looking for something to plug the hole inside ….
And,you can;t really have a proper relationship, until you have grieved and moved on from what you didn;t really get growing up, and you have made your peace with that.
So that a desire to love, comes from something whole and honest, genuine and humane….
A long journey …but hope I get there one day …thanksfor the clarity x
Like many other lovely ladies on this site, I thank NML immensely for her wisdom & for all the comments from other readers, I really feel this site gives me strength. I found NML about 1.5 yrs ago & come back every now & again to gain strength & see how everyone is doing. My husband & I split up 1.5 yrs ago after I discovered his affair but I knew earlier that he was untrustworthy, selfish, boring & moody, addicted to porn, in general a loser. It’s just sad that u didnt see earlier that I was worthy of so much more – real love with a genuine person. I really think I was in fantasy land thinking things would change with him. When he was so rude & disinterested all along.
Also I can’t really see anything in my childhood that may have spurred this but I can see some parts of my personality which are not beneficial…
Ahh this was JUST what I needed to read. Just as I was dealing with Valentine’s Day feelings drama (aka crying and getting agitated) I came across this article which really speaks to me at this moment. So I asked the guy I’ve been “talking to” for OVER A YEAR if he wanted to do anything for Valentine’s Day (mistake 1) through text (mistake 2), he responded..oh about 6 hours later…neither saying yes or no but saying he had to check to see if he was free. Cue flames shooting out of my eyes, what THE HELL kind of response is that? I didn’t respond. I understand that maybe it’s his way of politely declining without manning up and actually saying no. But what the hell. This happened Tuesday. It’s now early Sat morning here, Valentine’s Day and here I am feeling sorry for myself (mistake 3). Why is it so hard to go NC with someone who at best seems halfheartedly interested.
Anyway, thank you for this blog, it has been a godsend recently and I know in my heart the best thing to do in my situation is to go NC. It’s so tough because I like him a lot, we have the same values and wants out of life…but I deserve better.
Ah, yes, Valentine’s Day (do they have it in UK? If not, thank your lucky stars). I remember one with my EUM. It was a couple of months after a long break of ours, in which he’d begged and pleaded to get me back, saying all the right things, blah de blah. Anyway, he actually bought me a large bouquet of flowers. I wanted to take a picture of it and his camera was way up on top of a shelf. I kept asking him to get it for me and he kept saying he would later (red flag). Finally he went to take a shower and my spidey senses drove me to get a chair and get the camera and inspect whatever it was he obviously didn’t want me to see. I look at the pictures and there are a bunch of him and some girl he had been dating during our break. Yes, because why take a break and reflect, learn about yourself, etc, when there are so many women to f**k? But what killed me was the HUGE smile on his face as he stood with her. One of my peeves with him was that he would never smile when he took a picture with me. He always looked miserable. I would tease him about it but he would say “You Americans, always having to smile!” (He wasn’t American.) But there he was!! Smiling from ear to ear! So if he seems so happy w her, why the F did he beg and plead to get ME back? I never brought up the picture since she was now out of it, but of course it just made me feel like crap. SO glad I have no one to worry about this V-tines day and am only concerned with packing so I can go on vacay tomorrow! (Meanwhile my friend who is heavily involved with an AC, is beside herself because they had plans tonight but he literally has not spoken to her in 3 days and only returns her texts saying how busy he is. She can’t even get him to confirm they are still going out tonight. SO glad that’s not me!)
@Sammy, how old are you? I ask because I noticed that the new term for sleeping with someone is “talking to.” When I was younger, it was “hooking up.” Now it’s like the language is so far removed from the reality, that all you are doing is “talking.” In a few years, it will probably be termed “the person I’m occasionally breathing the same air space with.” Seems just another way to completely detach from any emotions, accountability, etc. “But we were just talking!” etc.
Diane, what a great viewpoint! I was laughing so hard at “the person Im occasionally breathing the same air space with” but you are right, the whole dating has just become totally impersonal, emotionless and most men just want to satisfy their needs and use as many women they can 🙁 And then breathe some air space with the next, a better, a different…
When I was in middle school/ high school a few decades back (the Disco Era more or less), people did “talk to” each other and it meant they were having some kind of ongoing nonplatonic thing, but it was never as clearly spelled out as “messing with” someone (probably what we would call “FWB” or “hooking up” nowadays)or “going with” them (“In A Relationship!”)
I had no idea “talking to” someone was the new code for sleeping with someone. That could easily lead to misunderstandings.
Love your post!!! Hope you enjoy your vacay!! My friend’s “boyfriend” if you can even call him that,also NEVER smiles in pictures with her, always thought that was a red flag, though with her its one of many.
I’m 30 years old and yes, far too old to even have to say I’m “talking to” a guy haha but I’ve been hearing that a lot and it best describes my situation as I don’t consider us “dating” or “hooking up” Good lord, what am I doing.
Sammy, I was reading your post and thinking “Yay! She’s getting it! Then I got to the part where you wrote “we have the same values and wants out of life…” and I wondered if you truly believe that.
My guess is that deep down you know better, you know that your values are different. You are starting to see your value, to value yourself and he clearly doesn’t value you or he wouldn’t treat you that way.
You do deserve better, much better!!
Veracity, Ohhh I just read your post and I’m tearing up at work. Thank you so much, its tough to remember that I deserve better only because I like him so much ughhhhh. And I do believe we have the same values and wants out of life yet I wonder if in his mind if I’m the right girl or its the right time. Well, I suppose I’m basing his values off what he initially said and not his actions Oh boy that sounds terrible when I reread it, I need to get it together and just realize he isn’t into me, his loss and move on. It’s tough. He was actually texting me all day Valentine’s Day and I suppose he figured something was amiss with my lack of responses vs. how I usually respond. He apologized for not spending Vday together and asked me to dinner the following week.
Ughhhhhhhhhhhh, that threw me for a loop.
You’re welcome. Write that out on a sticky note and stick it all over the place so it will work its way in!
“He apologized for not spending Vday together and asked me to dinner the following week.” So what did you do, Sammy??
Veracity, Don’t yell at me buttttttt I accepted…. because I wanted to explain that I wasn’t upset that we didn’t spend Vday together but that I was disappointed in how he handled it and that if he isn’t into me then that’s fine and I’ll find someone else worth my time. When I think about it though, I AM upset we didn’t spend Vday together, as silly as it may be, don’t I deserve a nice day with someone I like and that likes me?? Ughhh anyway he was super nice and apologized and we had a great time (just dinner and dessert and some kisses, nothing naughty 😉 ) and now I’m kicking myself for going on the date, the thing is that he is a good guy I just don’t think he is ready to commit.
Sammy, Why would I yell at you? You certainly don’t deserve to be yelled at. You are an adult and who am I to yell at you for your choices? You don’t seem to be as upset as you were at first. Actually, I feel compassion for you. I’ve been there many times. I will speak to you in a way I would want to be spoken to if I were in your shoes (when I was in your shoes). That’s the best I know how to do.
What I will say to you is that from where I stand it appears to me that you might consider:
That you are lying to yourself and to him.
He blew you off on Valentine’s Day.
You were upset about it.
You’re allowed to have your feelings about it – whatever they are…you are not bad/wrong/a bad person/fill in the blank_____ for having whatever feelings you had about it.
You chose not to honor your feelings.
Instead you minimized and denied them.
Why?
What other feelings are you minimizing and or denying?
Why did you tell him you weren’t upset when you clearly were?
My guess is that hat you likely fear that if you tell him the truth about how you feel he will – fill in the blank________(reject, abandon, rage at, dismiss) you.
He really isn’t a good guy. A good guy will not torture someone who is in love with them or has strong feeling for them by encouraging their attention, stringing them along, treating them with disregard, keeping them at a distance until they need an ego stroke or worse, sex.
A mature, compassionate, good person does not do that.
A good guy would not rely on texts to “communicate”.
A good guy wouldn’t be so lazy in his communication.
A good guy would also not leave you guessing for days whether or not you have a date. (leaving you feeling powerless.)
A good guy would not be disrespectful, selfish and uncaring.
A good guy would not use you – even if he could.
This guy is not interested in you but does not have the respect and compassion for you to be honest and give you the space you need to get over him. Instead he is being very selfish and uncaring, he’s putting his selfish needs for whatever his agenda is, whatever he is getting out of this (sex, ego stroke, attention, whatever) over and above your needs.
He has power over you and is using against you – it’s cruel. He is far from a good guy.
And an important thing to pay attention to (remember) is that you are allowing him to treat you this way. You are choosing this. By allowing it to continue you are telling him it’s okay. You are also hurting yourself.
We really do treat people how to treat us. I would look at why you allow yourself to be treated so poorly.
You are not protecting yourself and you are worthy of protection.
He will not change. This is who he is. He is not ready and may never be and it has absolutely nothing to do with you.
You can’t change him. You are powerless to change him or anybody else.
Anytime we don’t honor our own feelings and needs we a rejecting/abandoning ourselves.
If you tell yourself the truth you will have to face reality and give up the fantasy that if you do X, are Y, or love him just right (another words are somehow different-more worthy), he (and likely someone else in your past) will change and will choose you back.
You and you alone are responsible for you life, your choices, your thoughts, your behavior and you are the one that has to live with the consequences. If you choose to allow this man to stay in your life and to treat you this way you are hurting yourself and he will continue to hurt you…repeatedly.
It’s safe to face the truth, I promise you that it is safe. It is painful, but you will survive.
You are setting yourself up to be rejected, repeatedly. Please stop. You don’t deserve it.
You are so worthy of love, respect, kindness and consideration.
You might consider taking time away from dating to recognize and honor your feelings, needs and wants.
Your feelings and needs are important. They matter. You matter.
You’re worthy of so much more…Let him fly! And in time you will too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVLuEojfBIs
Best, Veracity
Veracity, Thank you. Once again, your words made me tear up. I’ve been thinking about my situation a lot and your words ring true. If I were to write out everything that’s happened over the course of this “relationship” I would feel very foolish and wonder why I am still holding on. You’re right, it is time to face the truth. I’ve stopped initiating texts and conversation with him since the date and wouldn’t you know it, he has been pursing me like crazy. Before I would have thought it was mixed signals but I now know his kind. He proves it daily. Thanks again for the support, it really has helped me a lot! 🙂
-Sammy
pursuing*
Sammy, You’re very welcome, I’m glad you found it helpful. We all need support and encouragement.
Good for you for facing the truth!! Going firm no contact will make it easier to stay in the truth…he will try to wear you down! If you expect it, it will be easier to resist giving in to it.
You can do it!
Veracity
I think the values appreciated these days in society are strange. It is as if casual relationships and infidelity are the norm and if someone wants to have a long-term, monogamous relationship, they are boring, uptight and missing out all the fun. I know that reality TV and drama shows are all about excess but really, these teach people, especially young ones, what to expect and how to behave. Same with social media, I just read an article about one internet millionaire who has banned his kids to have mobile phones and reads bedtime stories from books to them. He said that all these (also dating) apps are making us treat other people like commodities, not real and live human beings with feelings.
So, that being said, I think it makes it more difficult to stick to own values and principles rather than just “go with the flow” (hate that phrase), bump into people and stick with them no matter how incompatible they are to us. Many don’t seem to stop and think which path to choose. Many don’t even recognize that there are other options than just drifting along and keep receiving same bad treatment by different people. I surely was that person before and for a long time denied having anything to do with what kind of people I welcomed into my life; things just seemed to happen and I know now I was equally guilty by allowing it to continue.
This is actually quite funny if you think of it, if you wanted, say, a good education, you know wery well what to do: map out all the possible options available, think of which suits your needs best and then go for it 100%. You certainly wouldn’t pick out any random course and then expect or hope it to make you PhD overnight. Why are we so lost with our feelings and relationship desires?
Evvie, you write “I think it makes it more difficult to stick to own values and principles rather than just “go with the flow”” – THAT, that is called maturity. In any aspect. In my opinion, casual relationships, flip flopping etc are only symptoms. Not the disease itself. It’s the lack of maturity and avoiding having to mature that is the problem. One of the major lessons I learnt from this website is that I myself have to mature first. Only then can I try to engage with a mature partner. Like attracts like. But combined with our low self-esteem, immaturity means we avoid responsibility for our own lives in general. Being with a EUM is the epitome of immaturity in a sense – you deflect having to work on yourself (and me on myself, I am guilty as charged and first to admit it) by drowning in all the problem EUM has. I think the first step towards maturity is to stop looking intently into other people’s problems and why the choose to be flip floppers or whatever and see why we’re still standing close to those people. Maturity will always be scarce though. It’s like aristocracy of spirit in a way – demands tons of self-discipline.
Evvie and Why, Absolutely!! It is challenging sometimes to stick to our values and principles when everyone else seems to be okay with whatever is happening. I’ve often wondered what was wrong with me that I’m the only one that’s uncomfortable.
As we mature we recognize and take full responsibility for our choices (past and present) and the results of those choices. It can be scary because it also requires us to face some not very pleasant things about ourselves. But when we face and accept these things it frees us up and gives us greater opportunities to love ourselves and be who we really are and make conscious choices that support and uplift us instead of following someone elses idea of what are choices/beliefs should be.
It does demand great self-discipline, but it’s oh so worth it!
Evvie; a different, hormonally mediated, part of the brain. Entirely different situation. That, and being good primates, we are a highly social critter, evolved to have close bonds with one another. Physical touch, sex, bonding are core to who we are as a species, only slightly below food, water, oxygen, and shelter. Juxtapose all that with a society that is more isolating, disconnected, selfish, who puts social media on a par with actual socialization, like with real people. A mess. I can only speak for myself, but much like my PhD journey, my life’s journey this past decade or so experienced a good many unplanned and totally unpredictable, traumatic, bumps in the road. Having to take a new research direction because of new findings is easy, has zero bearing on ones competence and often is fundable. It’s just you, your data, your decisions, pretty much under your control. Being forced in a new direction because of a relationship where you were treated badly/dishonesty/plain bad luck, depending on circumstance, sets you back emotionally, quite often financially for years and you may never recover anything close to what you had and if you remain unintentionally alone, or remain alone because you see all your options are harmful, you are more vulnerable to more hurt, simply because human needs are strong and override logic whereas with the PhD, you get the damned degree regardless. I am taking a strictly logical approach now, with options that do include a total leaving of society if all else fails. What that does not include is giving up who I am, my values. I cannot tell you how much guff I got by friends/colleagues when I stated my plan was to train/cut wood/ shovel manure (a metaphor in itself), on VD rather than attend three locals-only events which would mean getting hit on by guys I am totally incompatible with. Better to get work done. With the PhD, there is a universal standard of research/publication/methodology or you don’t get the degree: there’s no real expectation that folk treat another well nor are there really consequences if this doesn’t happen. Yep, Evvie, given our lack of caring/community as a society coupled with a future of diminishing fossil fuels which has allowed an extravagant, unsustainable lifestyle for us in the developed world, we are gonna be in deep doo doo.
I’ve finally recognized how I have been sabotaging myself all of the years in both “intimate” and personal relationships. I longed for close relationships, said that is what I wanted, but then unconsciously chose people who were incapable of meeting my need for closeness. I realize now that I did this because I was (am) afraid to let people get close. I chose people who I wouldn’t have to worry about getting too close, because they had that same fear.
It’s amazing to me how when it’s time, when I’m ready, these realizations happen and there’s a shift. The light bulb goes on and it’s very, very clear. These things that confused the hell out of me in the past are now very obvious.
I was so lonely and desperate for friendship, companionship, belonging, acceptance that I would put up with all sorts of bad behavior to fill that void. I had a knack for spotting the people who could not give me what I wanted/needed and would try to change it/them (setting my self up for failure and rejection repeatedly). I put people on pedestals and projected all sorts of wonderful qualities on them that they didn’t really have. I always put myself in the one-down position. I picked people, over and over again, that would never treat me with love, kindness and respect (I wasn’t). I set myself up to be used, abused and exploited. A very familiar role for me.
I now see my responsibility in this and it makes all of the difference in the world. I’m sad that it took me so long and I’m mourning all of the lost time, but I’m grateful to see it now.
I am no longer willing to chase people, or work for their attention/approval. I’m also recognizing when someone is mean, controlling, or passive aggressive early in the relationship it is my responsibility to recognize that this is who they are and accept that it will not change and decide what is best way for me to respond to protect myself. In the past I would minimize it or ignore it because I was so lonely and desperate.
I’ve had so many female frenemies that I am very reluctant to let any women in. This site is helping me to build trust that women can be kind and supportive with one another without a hidden agenda or the mean jealousy and competitiveness. I’m grateful for NML and all of you.
It’s very inspiring to read all of your stories. We all share so much of ourselves here and often have so much in common. The support, honesty, and compassion is a precious gift to each of us. Your support gives me hope.
I’m now taking the time to learn to love, appreciate and accept myself. I’m learning to recognize what I want and need and to get those needs met in healthy ways. I’m chasing me and I finally recognize that I’m worth it.
This is a different thread, but I thought those who were following my saga with “chemistry guy” might be interested in it’s denouement. After he asked me out again, I finally said fine, but had given him a little lecture (red flag one talking too much) about what I was looking for. He replied that he wanted that too. He then said his schedule was crazy and he would get in touch in a couple of days. He did and said that he had to work nights for two weeks (he’s doing a TV shoot) but did I have an afternoon free? I replied giving him 3 afternoons. He said one wouldn’t work but “perhaps” the other one would. Said he would get back in a couple of days (why? You just said afternoons were good, so why 2 days to pick one?). Anyway, I think 3 days went by and then he emailed and changed the goal posts and said now he was working afternoons and could only do evenings (wow what job changes schedules this much? no job). So I said great, evenings are better for me anyway, let me know one that works for you.
Didn’t hear for 2 days. Finally I wrote back saying, Look, this is obviously not working. Best of luck to you.
He got back within 10 minutes (normally it takes him 2 days) saying that he was really sorry, his schedule was crazy (I kept thinking of NML’s “Busiest Man in the World tm” label) and that he didn’t mean to “dick me around” but he understood.
And then here’s the kicker. He added: “But just please email me if you get a chance and want to get a drink.”
WHAT??? Isn’t this what I’ve been trying to do for 3 weeks???
I replied, “Thanks, I have been doing that. But it isn’t working out and looks like it won’t.” I then wished him luck and signed off.
So, I was definitely right about him. Had a bad feeling from the start.
I actually have no doubt he will pop back up in the future, and I will have nothing to say to him.
Diane,
Good. Its not fun to have to fight ones own self to like a person. Its not fun to be the person that some one has to force themselves to like either. This one ‘worked out’ IMHO.
Diane thank you for the follow up. I learn my lessons from you too. Best, V.
Diane, thanks for the update. I was wondering about you and was about to ask but the topic doesn’t fit, so I was hesitant.
Yes. Something is very shady. To mirror your experience, I have mine. I met a guy at work. Went for a lunch with him during work time (his suggestion). By work e-mail he said he would love to meet again. Great. I said, ok, lunch or going out for a drink Friday night is fine, either way. He said, Friday is great because he will be out of town all week. Comes Friday (this last Friday) morning and I get a work e-mail that he has been so busy and will be traveling again, he can’t meet but definitely wants to get together. No scheduled time, no asking for my phone number. He said I hope I understand. I told him no problem I understand. Nothing else. Yes there was chemistry and great interest. He works in a way different department on a different floor. I never see him, so that’s no worries. But yes, I think when a guy can’t follow up or schedule a proper date by phone, calling you, not a lazy text or work email, I think it’s shady. Diane, like you I had a gut instinct that something was off during our lunch. I did like him, but I had some alarms chiming in my heart. Something was off. I figured he was a decent man and didn’t want to cheat on his woman on a Valentines’ weekend. 🙂 Nice of him. I just flush. Thanks to this board. Otherwise I would have spent days lamenting what’s wrong with me and why rejection again. No I just move on. I don’t care anymore. However, experiences like that bring up my ex. And I start missing him. Or rather missing what could have been? Anybody experienced that? When you are done healing and trying to date and it doesn’t work out, it make you hurt about your ex? The memories return? Not for long luckily. I will be fine tomorrow.
Diane, you made a right call. Unless he does something substantial and keeps it up, yes, but so far and you wrote about him weeks ago, you still haven’t met for a second date? He is still flip flopping about it? That’s terrible. The ex I had, at least we had a very consistent dating pattern for all of the honey moon phase and then it went downhill. Consistently still, but it was blowing cold. predictably as well.
For the topic of the article: of course it’s ok to want to love and be loved. We are women, we are human. However, a man’s love can’t sustain us anyway. That’s why as I have learned from BR you have to build your own fulfilled life. With purpose, hopefully enjoyable job, meaning, hobbies, activities. Because think even if you find someone great and wonderful… People go away due to death or a breakup. We always have to stay true to ourselves. Like Diane said and other people for this topic, keep living your life. It’s only one. Yet of course, we crave love, care and affection. It’s normal. We have to balance it somehow and focus on other things. And remember that life here is just temporary. And with that, all this life’s feelings and worries are temporary too. Once we admit that, perhaps we will take a different approach.
Such a great topic this weekend. Even I got nostalgic and weepy this weekend, although I thought I had almost recovered ( I guess not completely there) and raging PMS hormones and Valentine will get you. Feb 14 is almost over. Nothing to fear until Christmas, for those who are freshly broken up, which doesn’t relate to those who are on here currently.
Why, you made a good point about using other people’s problems as a diversion, I believe that I was do focused on my husband (now separated) bad behaviour for a number of years that any introspection or work on myself was bypassed. I want to improve myself, be better at my job, be a great mother and friend, etc etc and I felt like he always sapped my time. But it was my choice I need to decide how my important time is spent. And like others who have mentioned this I get angry at the amount of time I have spent in the past worrying about unavailable people or being sad at their mistreatment of me. I’m finding an aspect of my personality that seems to want to play the victim & be always hardly done by… You know the life’s so hard and I’m always so busy kind of story…..I’m really trying to focus more on spending precious time in a useful way to help me feel more empowered. I know in the past there have been some very good men ( ex boyfriends for example) who I have bypassed to chase some rude & unavailable man, I think I must have done that to give myself some kind of goal or purpose even though it drained all my time, then it’s kind of like u have an excuse as to why ur not focused of you. It’s a weird concept but I feel I have lived a lot of my years like that. Like one of the other readers said above – once escaped from that mindset and when u see the person again you cannot understand why u would have spent so much time interested in them. I now look at my ex, when he comes to collect our daughter & wonder what ever interested me in him. He is so rude & boring.
This part is particularly striking for me: “We know that we’re loving, not piling on the feelings in the hope that it will create a tipping point of reciprocation.” Yes.
I’ve spent a year doing just that within a “monogamous, but not official” relationship with an EUM. Looking back at it now after two weeks of no contact, while still missing him periodically and still drumming up excuses for his behavior and what ifs (what if I’d given him more time, etc.), I am truly rattled to see (finally! clearly!) how little he was contributing and how much I was over-giving to the relationship. It is just like Natalie writes; I was trying to create a tipping point. It was almost like my sweetness was weaponized; I was pelting it at him, throwing it like rocks over the wall of a fortress. I thought, ‘I’ll be sweeter. I’ll be more patient. I’ll pick up that book he mentioned. I’ll make him a sandwich. Sure, he can watch my TV when he’s sick. Wouldn’t he really like to order a movie on my Apple TV? I will be the sweetest, most patient woman ever and I will be awarded the blue ribbon.” Every time the focus was on me, he failed. When we first met through mutual friends a year ago, he played at sweetness. He brought me little gifts and blew off work a couple of times to have day dates. But when we hit the first marker of something serious, a friend’s 40th birthday dinner party, he fell off the map. The party was on a Saturday. On Wednesday, I texted asking if he preferred to meet me there. I never received a reply. On Saturday morning, I phoned and left a voicemail asking again if we were traveling together. At the party, when I realized he was not coming, I phoned him and told him his behavior was unacceptable and I was done. But I wasn’t. Days later, he came and apologized and explained that he was just “so afraid of all his feelings” for me. A version of this has consistently happened, though he has claimed he is “inching” toward commitment. He didn’t come to my birthday party, as he was mad that he received an invitation from my friend hosting it instead of a personal invitation from me. He didn’t wish me a Happy Valentine’s Day last year, only texted to thank me for the flowers I’d sent to his office. The straw that broke the camel’s back was at a big award party a few weeks ago. I was the recipient of a prestigious award in the field that he and I both work in. I asked him to be my date. He did not hesitate to say yes. Progress, I thought! (Just as I thought it was progress when he spent Christmas with me, though his Christmas present was a book I already had that had been sitting on my coffee table for three months. It was sitting there still when I opened the present. I sent him into the kitchen to refresh my coffee so I could hide the copy I already had, in case he hadn’t seen it one of the hundreds of times he’d been right there on my couch.) When I arrived at the awards party, he was already there. I waved at him, expecting he would come over. He didn’t. A few times I came over to him, but he made no moves (besides a very brief introduction) of helping me into his conversations. I wandered away. The party was three hours; he never came to my side. At one point, another awardee and I were talking and her boyfriend appeared at her side with a new glass of red wine for her and a plate of mini desserts. He said, “I noticed your wine was almost empty.” I saw that and I just knew I was done. I remembered what it was like to be respected, love, treasured by one’s boyfriend. Why was I putting up, nearly begging for, a man who couldn’t even compliment me? (I thought we had an amazing sex life and told him many times; his response: “You think?”) I had a talk with him and asked about his behavior at the event. He had a lot of excuses, but took some responsibility and said he was trying to sort his feelings yet still wasn’t sure if he could commit to saying he was/or acting as though he were my boyfriend. We were “seeing each other,” “trying it on,” and it seemed “immature” that I wanted to define it like a highschooler. At this point, I said, “That is what I want. I want to wear your letterman’s jacket!” He said he would think. He disappeared and, days later, I didn’t hear a peep from him. I stuck all his stuff through his mail-slot along with a very kind Dear John two weeks ago. That was it for me. That was the end of trying to topple him with “love.” Love is two people opening their doors, not a break in. I don’t know what I was thinking; I was so overrun with feelings.
It is Valentine’s Day. Today is hard. I am eating the handcrafted pink peppercorn vulva-shaped chocolates I had bought for him, another unique present to try to convince him I was unique, too.
@Eusastia, be careful, this guy is going to continually rise from the ashes. If you haven’t read “Men Who Can’t Love” I highly recommend it. It explains this behavior to a T. (It should be called “Men Who Can’t Commit” but when it was published 20 years ago, the coauthor told me no publisher believed that was something that actually existed, so they wouldn’t title it that.) And of course NML’s “Fallback Girl.”
I agree. Sounds like the guy that will try to come back and wear you down with promises to change, be better, he gets it now, blah, blah, blah, to get back in, then continue his bad behavior and string you along.
I’ve been there. Cooking gourmet dinners (he didn’t contribute anything and laid down on the couch afterwards!), always making sure he had everything he needed, learning his hobbies, etc.. The more I over- gave, the more selfish he got.
Great job recognizing that you deserve to be respected, loved, cherished and that your relationship needs to be reciprocal. I hope you go firm NC and save yourself a lot of pain and aggravation. he has shown you who is is. He will never change unless and until somethings prompts him to want to change. It has to come from him and it sounds as if he perfectly happy with himself and his choices.
Love the chocolate idea! It was unique! Hang in there, there’s someone out there who will love you for who you are and treat you accordingly.
major asshole. good thing that he showed his spots.
and leopards don’t change their spots!
reminds me of some friends i have: he is looking for better, all the time. he’s probably a friend-poacher, too. he’ll be the guy who puts the hit on some else’s (even his best friend’s) wife.
what a loser.
Eustacia, I agree with everyone who commented on your story. This “man” has attractiveness of a mold spot on a bathroom tile. I hope you totally nuked him. You can do SO MUCH BETTER. Please don’t waste your time inhaling this moldy guy’s fumes. He sounds like a toxic loser.
Eustacia,
You are such a sweet, kind, considerate, and wonderful person. So caring of others’ feelings.
He is a non-committed guy. He might be very well cared for you and still does, but he can’t and won’t commit. You are trying, like Nat says, to turn into a pretzel for him. So many things you said resonate with my experience with my ex. I tried to like his movies, books, his hobbies. Anything to please him. I tried to jokingly ignore his criticism of my taste in movies, books and music.
I am so sorry. Yes, it’s a hard day today. Even I admit it and I never cared for this holiday even when I was married and my husband was trying to be romantic. (but he was a caring guy throughout).
Tomorrow is Sunday. Almost there. Hugs.
Oh my dear, I have BEEN THAT WOMAN. Thank you for your very honest story.
Eustacia, you have done well. I laughed out loud at the vulva chocolates; I do think they were wasted on him.
I think it would have taken every bit of self-restraint I possessed not to brain him with that book, Eustacia. Or better yet, box his ears, one copy of the book per ear. “Silent Night THIS, Muther******!” Awyeah. Blissful to imagine.
(On a *completely unrelated* note, do you it’s possible I still have some unresolved, residual anger toward my ex? #devilhorns#)
He sounds like a self-absorbed, selfish “chopper”. Good riddance.
@Used, @Veracity, @Why, @Sofia, @Ethelreda, and @ Spanish Jackie –
Thank you for your words of support! I’m determined to stay strong and avoid him, even if it means avoiding events I’d planned on attending. The hardest part is keeping my mind for wandering right back into the fantasy (the one I nurtured for so long and seem reluctant to part with): if I’d stayed longer, maybe he’d have turned into a man ready to commit. If I hadn’t left a Dear John, which is not my usual style, maybe (after he sulked for more days) he would have been ready. I know it is bogus. But I find myself worrying, “Is he mad at me? Does he hate me? Is he ok?” Then I have to take it back to myself, back to present. I’m sad now. I miss his company, though he had been solidly ratty for the last three weeks. But right now is ok. I’m no longer doing a dance to prove my worth, and that feels good.
Thanks for your feedback about the Christmas book, @Spanish Jackie! When friends asked what he got me and I told them, they said, “But that book has been on your coffee table for months!” Some even wondered if it was a deliberate jab, but I think he just saw it on a “great gift” table at the bookstore and thought, “Welp, that’s good enough. It’s something.”
@Sofia, I do believe he cared for him a little. He definitely liked to defend me from perceived injustices, such as boss asking for an unreasonable turn-around on an assignment, etc. He just does not want a committed relationship. His “One Time at Bandcamp” story kept me in line for so long.
@Used, you nailed it with the friend-poaching. He definitely has a habit of collecting people. He has a whole harem of women who follow him around and stoke his ego. One of his friends, though married, harbors deep feelings for him. It became pretty obvious to me during our “relationship” and I asked him about it. His reply: “Yeah, I forget how much she cares about me.” I gently told him that I thought he should put some guardrails on that friendship or things would eventually implode. He claimed to listen to my suggestions, but I think he was mostly trying to keep me off his trail, keep me from realizing that he will take/extract kindness and compliments from any female source, even if they are hurting themselves for him, even if they mean nothing to him. It’s a big wake-up call for me to realize that some people are unprincipled when it comes to love. Some people are selfish.
Chumplady.com has a very helpful saying for when we come back with ‘But I MISS him still’.
She says, in effect, You don’t miss him. You don’t miss the relationship, because it was a lie. YOU MISS THE LIE.
I really took this to heart and it has helped me a lot with overcoming and processing my grief at my ‘lost relationship’ 25 years ago. It was based on very wobbly foundations, and it wouldn’t have worked anyway.
But oh, how I miss the lie! And then I think – huh? And the universe rights itself once more, and sanity prevails.
exactly!
This is so spot on. If you combine this with many of us here know (as having been OW): after the dissolution of a “relationship” with such a person the other woman misses what was NEVER THERE and all happened in her head (his future faking helped a lot) aka a FANTASY RELATIONSHIP that was always just about to happen, and the (ex)wife misses a relationship that was a LIE. Both lose. But the ultimate loser in this situation, I think, is the cheating man/partner. Even if the popular culture at large things it’s macho to have many women at once and fool them, it actually means that he can’t be genuine with either one of them. In whatever role you are with such a person, you will never win and never have anything tangible apart from illusion.
So true, Why. It’s a wonderful thing we have here. We can open up and tell everything. The unloading is freeing. We get invaluable advice and insight from women around the world, from women who have the same experiences and share the same needs. All because of Natalie.
I just wanted to say hi to everyone and hope we are all eating chocolates tonight and drinking wine, by ourselves or with people we actually like and that make us happy, friends, family, pets, SOs. That means (in the words of Bridget Jones!), none of the following: ‘alcoholics, workaholics, commitment phobics, people with girlfriends or wives, misogynists, megalomaniacs, chauvinists, emotional f***wits or freeloaders, perverts.’I was thinking yesterday whether I want to be with EUM (No!!) or even know him in the future (No!!) – and I dont really regret my behavior with him, I was taken in by him for sure but I didn’t have many illusions and I’ve beaten myself up enough already. So its time to get over it and put him out of my mind (its not just NC with him, its that it should be NC in my mind, no more obsessing, thinking, having pretend conversations, and/or plotting revenge).
We are on BR because we are living out paradoxes, so I thought of some new BR definitions for often used relationship words. I’m convinced with more of a sense of humor we wouldn’t have put ourselves through all this.
Rejection: the feeling that someone you dont respect isn’t in love with you [how dare he?! me?! i’d like to let him know exactly what i think]
Moving on: when someone that didn’t treat you well chooses to do the same to another person [why her? i cried for months and now she gets to cry?]
I hope you can add some more to make a real list!
Suki,
I have one for the list. Now this word, like Spanish, has feminine and masculine pronunciations… Lets start with the man meaning first shall we?
FRIEND(S): What I will tell her we are so that she wont think I’m just using her…even though I am.
Now for the woman’s meaning of the word.
FRIEND(S): What I will tell myself that we are so I wont feel like he is just using me…even though he is.
Suki,
How about…
ITS NOT YOU ITS ME – It is me really but I’m far too up my own ass to recognise this, I believe it’s you. If I say it’s me instead you might feel sorry for me and I can then tap you up for an ego stroke/shag later.
OMG yes, ljsrmissy. YES.
First things first! HAPPY VALENTINES DAY NAT AND ALL THE LOVELY, SMART, KIND, WARM, GIVING BR GODDESSES!
Nat out of all of the reads, I think this one is the most poignant and relevant one for me. In one way or another, I wanted to be saved from the two scarlet letters….SELF. and SINGLLLLE! I want to highlight the importance of what several women have brought up in these comments. I was brought up in and I bought into the propaganda as I now call it. the programming that unless a woman has a man, she is now complete, valid, hell even a full adult woman. I know in the black community, men and women will use a woman’s marital status to invalidate her or what she is saying No matter how smart, pretty, accomplished she is or how truthful her comment is, if some one doesn’t like what she is saying or her, they will literally say ‘but where is your man at/but she is single’. Its like what does that have to do with ANYTHING. Its something that men (and sadly women join in on it) go to when they have nothing really valid to go to. Much in the same way men will try to shut a woman down (especially a single one) by calling her a slut when they are trying to distract her or shut her down (because he cant out wit her or she wont be controlled).
I will say looking back (in my 20’s, approaching mid 30’s now)I was doing what I was ‘told to do’ in terms of what I believe the role of a woman a “good woman” a “strong woman” was. Barf… I bought into that ‘hang in there’, ‘anything worth having is worth fighting for’, a
“good and strong” woman does this this and this, and a woman’s looooooooove can change, transform, and ‘heal’ a man…… LIES! I was barking up the wrong tree’s. But I am happy that the guys in the past were my ‘crash test dummies’ and NONE of them were ANYTHING to write home about! I cant even say what I was thinking then outside of being a late bloomer (not dating in middle/high school), the process of learning and growing, and just not coming into my Goddess until recently.
I want the best me, first and foremost and always. And now a man must align with that. I have become more practical vs. love sick school girlish. I literally look at men as in terms of ‘do I want to see him again’. No fast forwarding. Literally “do I even want to finish this convo’. Men in their 30’s, 40’s acting as if they don’t know how to use a phone = flush. Dinner for sex guys = flush (if the cost of a dinner/drinks/movie ticket is THAT SERIOUS to a man, he is not for me). As some other ladies mentioned before, learning to BELIEVE what I am fricking seeing and HEED IT!! Drop em like a hot pot!
“If I Had a Boat”– Lyrics
Still Alice (2014) –Closing Credit Song
~~ Original Song Written By Lovett, Lyle Pearce
Cover by Karen Elson, 2014
If I had a boat
I’d go out on the ocean
And if I had a pony
I’d ride him on my boat
And we could all together
Go out on the ocean
I said me upon my pony on my boat
If I were Roy Rogers
I’d sure enough be single
I couldn’t bring myself to marrying old Dale
It’d just be me and Trigger
We’d go ridin’ through them movies
Then we’d buy a boat and on the sea we’d sail
And if I had a boat
I’d go out on the ocean
And if I had a pony
I’d ride him on my boat
And we could all together
Go out on the ocean
I said me upon my pony on my boat
Now the mystery masked man was smart
He got himself a Tonto
‘Cause Tonto did the dirty work for free
But Tonto he was smarter
And one day said kemo sabe
Kiss my ass I bought a boat
I’m going out to sea
And if I had a boat
I’d go out on the ocean
And if I had a pony
I’d ride him on my boat
And we could all together
Go out on the ocean
Said me upon my pony on my boat
And if I were like lightning
I wouldn’t need no sneakers
Well I’d come and go whenever I would please
And I’d scare ’em by the shade tree
And I’d scare ’em by the light pole
But I would not scare my pony on my boat out on the sea
And if I had a boat
I’d go out on the ocean
And if I had a pony
I’d ride him on my boat
And we could all together
Go out on the ocean
I said me upon my pony on my boat, I said me upon my pony on my boat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jStiNkRNeug
Love this, Camillah.
@Diane Thank you for the book recommendation! I’m going to read it. Re-reading “Fallback Girl” and the entries on this site is my go-to in moments of weakness
Eustacia
I do like your phrase “Love is two people opening their doors, not a break in”
Brilliant!
It’s as good as Natalie’s about having an affair with a MM like being “double crossed in a heist” (although in my case with a MM there was no heist, as we both knew he’d not leave his wife, and it ended only when I discovered another Other Woman, who kept re-appearing and who he’d run circles round – and is probably still seeing).
I’d have thrown away the chocolates!
But then again I still have some of the stuff that MM bought from Ann Summers (thats a pretty mainstream sex shop in the UK) tucked away somewhere. He kept some of the other things (I wonder who or if he is using them?!) Guess it’s time to throw that all out too. Along with the emails/ photos/ videos…and memories.
As you put so well, “I don’t know what I was thinking; I was so overrun with feelings.”
For me I knew the feelings I had weren’t love but a whole painful mess of strange stomach churning passion, comfort from sex and closeness, hate for him and my own self loathing… as I knew I was being lied to.
It’s that losing perspective that’s so scary.
Have to say that thanks to BR I had a pain free Valentine’s Day even though I went to a event full of smoochy couples! Managed to see off a number of assclowns and idiots …said no to dancing with dating waifs and strays! I always feel a bit mean but they don’t care about my feelings, so why should put theirs first? Got a couple of good friends to observe how men behave around me to gain some insight into why waifs, strays, players and deviants are drawn like a magnet to me. Even had a couple of them push my friends out of the way so they can monopolise my attention. It’s really odd .. But my daughter reckons that most men are thick skinned and need straight talking. Perhaps we EUWs are ambiguous too and create confusion around men. Finally I think I am starting to make sense of my own behaviour that has landed me in trouble over and over!
This article is for me. I wanted the relationship so much that I endured a chain smoking, alcoholic EUM. Been with him for 3 years and never said he loved me. I had hope this Valentine’s would be different. Nothing was planned and he didn’t even want to see me because he had drunk and didn’t want to drive. I’m a smart, beautiful, owns her own condo and things but just missing a partner in life. I settled for any crumbs this guy offered even though I know I deserve so much more. I even took at cab to see him and after he was texting, I just stood up and left; without a word. I walked 30 mins to catch the train (had already wasted money on the $50 cab) and the walk was a good head clearer even though it was -35. Good thing I had warm clothing. This IS MY WAKEUP CALL.. he texted me later and I didn’t respond. no contact. I need to love myself now to know I deserve so much better than a 40 loser living in a basement apartment. All the best everyone.. be strong, be kind to yourself..
sam, congratulations on your epiphany moment! Hold that thought.
Hello Sam,
I wish you good luck in your healing journey! Live yourself and prove to yourself that you have dignity!
Be sure that you will find healthy partner, when you move on and you give the needed time to get yourself together.
Good luck!
Sam, I think that walk in the freezing cold will stick with you as the epiphany after a rock bottom moment. Well done for waking up.
Dear Diane
Thank you for taking time to respond. I had been going crazy in my head trying to deal with this all alone. I am glad I took the step to comment on Natalie’s post and thankful that you reached out to me. You are right to say that I need to be more compassionate with myself. I am working on that… On accepting the mistakes I have made and learning from them. Thank you for your positive attitude and lack of judgement… Helps me breathe a bit easier. Loves, Selfseeker75
Dear Mymble
Thank you for taking the time to share your story, experience and insights. You are right when you say that the AC will try to contact you. He did so last Friday. I totally ignored it and have not responded to his text message. That you for your guidance. It gave me moral strength. I am going through periods of up and down and just trying hard to stay afloat. Keeping busy and concentrating on the important people in my life. I have signed up for a swimming program and am looking forward to putting all this behind me. Loves, Selfseeker75
Well BR, I come to you after letting myself get used. I thought I was doing much better. He was completely available, we established we were both looking for something long term, he was not the charming, charismatic type I usually go for, he was romantic. I challenged him and let him know when he was crossing a line. I felt assertive and like I had my own back.
But I brought him back home too early, and that instantly changed things. There was some odd behaviour, making out that it was all my idea and that he had no expectation of this happening. I’m not going say I was pressured but it was 50/50, and in our messages it was very clear what we were expecting to happen that evening. There were so many indications that he was honest and mature before then, so I was shocked to hear the 180 turn and what is an outright lie. Since then, his messages have lost the romance and he’s acting ambiguous. He sent a sweet message last night but has been on the dating website and I suspect he’s just hanging on to me in case other dating prospects don’t work out.
It’s brutal, the online dating world, and it depresses me to start looking again. I feel sad, but also like I’m advancing if I’ve come to this conclusion about him after just a few days instead of waiting around passively. I know I shouldn’t feel so rejected by someone who just talked about himself most of the time and isn’t that special. I can do better. I have a powerful temptation to give him a piece of my mind, since he’ll be thinking I’m besotted with him, but I have to let it go.
By the way, I am left with a negative belief after this. This guy was not equivalent to me when it comes to fitness, living arrangements, creativity, enjoyment of life and outgoingness, job, interests – I’m not beautiful, but he certainly isn’t either.
I just would have liked another date, was not caught up in a fantasy, and thought I could do better, but liked him. But now I feel like women like me are 10 a penny to guys like him, we can just be discarded. I know sometimes people just aren’t right for each other, but feel like there’s a imbalance here between what men and women can aim for. Maybe it’s down to a poor male-female ratio online, and I think in this city there are more single women than men. Is it impossible to find someone equal?
One question: what does this mean? “This guy was not equivalent to me when it comes to fitness, living arrangements, creativity, enjoyment of life and outgoingness, job, interests – I’m not beautiful, but he certainly isn’t either.”
If you want to “find someone equal”, maybe you should be going out with somebody who you deem “equivalent to you” for a start. V.
V, I just feel like guys who are ‘equivalent’ to me are going after and getting ‘better’ women, younger, fitter etc. As I write it, I realise how this sounds, I think there’s some truth in it but it also reflects my insecurities.
Exactly. Once you see yourself as good enough the way you are right now – no need to be better, or perfect – you’ll find a good enough guy for you. Take care dear, V.
Lovely V, thank you.
Hello Happy B,
People unfold and we are not always happy when they show their true self.
Take a look at this: https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/people-unfold-let-go-of-the-assumptions-expectations-snapshot-get-to-know-somebody/
Happy B,
I would say sorry this happened to you but there is nothing to be sorry about. You see this he was a guy not ‘your’ guy. That’s all that matters. It sounds as if you are taking it in good stride. I know BR helps us put so much into perspective.
In terms of that guy, I think as a general rule we as women need to listen to what they do over a period of time. Men will tell a woman literally anything. I thing with guys the ends, no matter what they are, justify the means, no matter what they are. We may think a man saying ‘oh I want something more/serious/long term’ as meaning that he actually wants that. It could. He could also be just saying it because he knows that’s the thing to say to woman or he may not want long term now or he didn’t specifically say he wanted it with you/us in particular. Did he say he wanted long term with you? I think time, situation, and circumstance is the ultimate truth serum! If a man says he is long term material, or he wants long term with us, and then he disappears or start the good ol’ fade out (to look like less than a jerk, then how truthful was that? How to we expect to verify these claims unless we witness them, well, in the long term? Beyond 3 day, 3 weeks, and 3 months? How can we verify that a man is long term commitment material for us in just 3 months? We cant. Some guys are 3 day, 3 week, 3 month wonders. They are dream boats for a short period of time and then they disappear or they get tired of wearing the mask and the real and consistent them starts to show. Its usually when they feel they’ got you/us’.
And this is what I was saying with my silly jokes above:
Rejection: the feeling that someone you dont respect isn’t in love with you [how dare he?! me?! i’d like to let him know exactly what i think]
Happy b; you dont really like him, you think he wasn’t good enough for you, and yes, thats what he is. You didn’t turn him into a bad guy, he just isn’t that great. At the same time, you took up with a not great guy, and you slept with him.
What I find really sad about dating life today; What is the point with sleeping with someone once? It only gets better with time, friendlier, more intimate, more fun. Its like these guys (and i guess us too) just think that they can’t extricate themselves from relationships so are always holding others at arms length. And that I think is EU – this guy liked you, but then backed away after sex? It makes zero sense to me. Unless all these guys are just still working with some 1940s mentality – if she sleeps with me, she’s a sloot, I dont want to be in any club that would have me as a member, so she’s not worth it because she likes me enough to sleep with me. Ugh. What terrible adolescent sexist EU logic. You’re well rid of him.
Ljsr, when you say ‘he disappears or start the good ol’ fade out (to look like less than a jerk, then how truthful was that?’ and ‘Some guys are 3 day, 3 week, 3 month wonders’, these are very familiar to me.
There’s a twist in this tale – it looks like I misread him and he didn’t reject me at all. As far as he was concerned, we’re no different to before. He wasn’t trying to pull the fade out, but that’s all I know. I’m still left with a feeling of mistrust, as well as now losing his trust, so maybe or maybe not we’ll get the chance to see each other unfold. It’s too early to talk of long term, it was enough just to know it was a prospect.
But I brought him back home too early, and that instantly changed things.
Eyup. Sure does.
happyb, don’t worry. This feeling of sadness will pass, and you are now wiser for it.
Next time, you can keep the boundaries up a bit longer, and really TAKE YOUR TIME about the physical side of things.
Ethelreda, very true, though it looks now like I felt bad about it and projected my regrets onto him, i.e. by assuming he wasn’t interested too quickly and being too defensive. It blew me away how vulnerable I felt. A very good reason not to rush into it.
Suki, the whole thing is bizarre, now I realise that he actually was interested. He definitely backed away in that I wasn’t getting good night and good morning messages and the only things I heard were mundane necessary things. I know the standard is to wait 4 days to hear back from a guy, and he messaged me many times, but none of it to say anything nice or arrange another date. This was only over a couple of days but made me assume he was backing out gracefully. I think he was just as insecure as me and part of the mix-up was that I was very much co-piloting, so why should I then wait around like a 50s woman and not share in initiating things after that?
I’ve apologised for jumping to conclusions, he may or may not accept it and if he does, it may or may not work out with him. I’m not sure if he’s good enough, but he has the potential to be a good addition to my life and is emotionally available.
Happy b: I was thinking that sometimes words dont do it. I think you are now in a situation where no more explaining is necessary. You either go back to living your relationship, that is living it, not talking about it, or if its too messy now then back away. Also, think about your role in it – not as a way to beat yourself up over what happened, but just to figure it out. You say you brought him over too early and you say that you felt too vulnerable. THAT is the story right there. Its possible you’re not listening to your own mind.
There is no 4 day standard — 4 days! forgeddaboutit!!
Also, you had said you didn’t really like him — so I think this is a good time to back away. You felt vulnerable, asked him over too early, and aren’t sure you like him (or was that only because you werent getting a response from him?); these are all red flags and they are about YOU! So even before you get started on whatever red flags you are getting from him, thats already enough to take a step back.
Take care, dont beat yourself up over this; relationships dont require this much work or thinking. You might not be ready, he might not be the one, you might not be ready for HIM.
Suki, this is resolved now. This man’s baggage could fill the Royal Albert Hall and would need an extra concrete dome to contain its stench. I can’t believe this guy.
I was right the first time, I felt vulnerable because I WAS vulnerable in his company. But because my evidence seemed flimsy and he’s come across so self aware, I apologised and said I’d jumped to conclusions about him. Then he accepted it today and said some flirty things. I flirted back and made it clear I liked him and wanted to see him. He then wrote some things that were quite graphic and nasty (fine if you’re happy to humiliate yourself). I asked him whether he really accepted my apology or was punishing me. Nearly all his responses were bitter and sarcastic, so he wasn’t just a matter of bad taste, and I felt any idea of seeing him again crumble before me as my boundaries were being jumped. I mean, using an apology for his own dark sexual gratification, and I’ve only known him 5 minutes? This is astounding stuff, imagine being in a relationship with this man. I think he is very sexually insecure and his actions reflect that, just saying it in case others have experienced it.
Right after I told him his behaviour was terrible and he said he through with me, I had to go into a meeting of 20 people and present some findings. I barely slept last night then had tried so hard to win him back after thinking I misjudged him, then realised what an AC he is. In the meeting, my anger gave me a clarity and sharpness, I talked in depth about the subject, laughed with people, and felt high on my own freedom and the brilliant people around me, out of the grasp of this manipulative a*hole.
Happy B, you say “I’ve apologised for jumping to conclusions”. Please tell me your apology was not to HIM…
Suki is putting out pure gold in here so I am just gonna insert a teeny tiny comment from experience: mature men, trustworthy partner material men who are worthy of you do not even create situations where you’d need to apologize to THEM. You’re not left obsessing about what his (in)action means. You are both just living and savouring the relationship. It does not mean it’s all honey and cotton candy, no. It means you still have your doubts and insecurities but as someone said in the other post – if a guy truly cares, you feel continuously chosen by him. You also have a kind of trust where it’s okay to confess that you felt he was disappearing and it left you confused (there’s a way to ask this respectfully). The guy who is interested in you will be championing YOUR feelings and fighting over your trust in him. That’s why he’ll be more than willing to explain what was going on with that distance thing and then COMMMIT to making it up to you and make sure it does not make you feel neglected when he does. It’s not to say that all work is on him. Of course, we do need to take care of our needs ourselves. And be our own champion. But there’s space for care and open dialogue even in the beginning of a relationship. It’s called respecting the other person and their time. Being open. This guy, at least the way you describe him, seems ambivalent. Just keep your eyes peeled up. It seems like he gave you your first warning. Proceed with caution.
Why, thanks for this, I’ve explained the horrible way it unravelled and to have seen a nastiness that I haven’t seen in anyone for a long time. I’ve never felt so pleased to end something.
You’re right, the reason I so quickly decided he didn’t have the kind of interest I wanted was because in that short time, you just know. It was when I tried to explain to him and he turned it all around on me that it went wrong.
I’ll remember your words.
Whoa Happy b, that is not good, that man sounds like a total AC, block him totally. And definitely think about what is making you take up with people so beneath your notice. We really need to be far more careful of our hearts and our company and who we pay attention to.
I have in the past found myself becoming friendly with people that I didn’t respect initially – sometimes they are just fun or have a wicked sense of humor or whatever. In nearly every case, we have had some huge blowout fight where they have been totally unreliable, undependable, back-stabby, passive aggressive, whatever. But – its not my fault that they behaved like that, its my fault that i allowed people i didn’t really trust to become close to me because i had ‘fun’ etc. Its important to be very suspicious of others till enough time has passed that you can trust.
I have a friend now that I like, I liked her as soon as we met, we get along, have girls pub night. But she is very negative about our mutual colleagues – I dont like work gossip with people I dont know, I dont like that she is so negative to me since she doesnt know me that well either. So it suggests she is indiscreet. I am always careful that I dont say anything to her. I dont know her enough to really tell her what I think. I dont like to tell my mind to people I dont know. So we hang out, we chat, I like her in many ways. But I am careful around her, we havent proved ourselves to each other yet.
How quickly we trust men sometimes, its shocking.
Why is right – a decent guy wouldn’t do any of this.
Suki, I’m thinking about what makes me take up with people ‘beneath my notice’ as you say. On this dating website, he was the only person I had any kind of ‘online chemistry’ with. His responses were very articulate and personal, and interesting. I really liked that way he didn’t try to tell me who he is and took that as a good sign. Whereas others I ignored because they were generic and overblown, or there was messaging that felt very stilted and effortful. I realised even at the time how low my bar was – someone who can write well, read my profile, and not bore the socks off me. He had a perfect balance between seeming enthusiastic and not being overwhelming. But behind all this, is a nasty, bitter man. I’ve only been doing this for 6 weeks and already very disillusioned.
I’m absorbing what V said, ‘Once you see yourself as good enough the way you are right now – no need to be better, or perfect – you’ll find a good enough guy for you’. I realise that while I’m happy in myself, I’ve been thinking that men who are ‘good enough’ for me will pass me over for someone ‘better’. There’s so much noise and fear mongering about what 30-something women should accept, and I won’t have it anymore. Yesterday, I had a glimpse of what it’s like to be in a relationship with a manipulative bully and if I never find a decent man, I’ll be thankful that this isn’t my daily life. Isn’t that the definition of an AC – someone who doesn’t have your interests at heart. And this man tries to push me into something I’ve said I don’t like doing because he thinks I’ll accept it. I’m holding out for someone like me and I’ll take it slow.
What you say about your friend, I wonder if she has low self esteem? One of my biggest regrets is that I used to be negative about colleagues when I had very low self esteem, I think this was because I often took things personally and was super critical of myself and others. I see it in one of my friends now and have limited trust in her. I wonder if you can be a bit of a mentor to her, gently challenge her and show her alternative ways to interpret her relationships with colleagues and encourage compassion? Or have I got this wrong and she’s just not a very nice person?
Happy B, When meeting new people I’d only recommend no online getting to know somebody and no or very limited text message conversations. Don’t invest via theses mediums because they inevitably lead you towards a fantasy perspective of the other person and interfere with in real life perceptions. If the man in question fades away when you make your limited digital policy clear – via actions btw, rather than words- then that is simply a sign that he is not really Emotionally available for a real in 3 D discovery with you. From what I read of your interactions with this guy, you were both pretty text reliant for communication between dates? And a fair chunk of fantasy build up occurred online prior to meeting in 3D? It’s possible that many of your issues around early over-investment based on chemistry might resolve of themselves by remembering that a propensity for and reliance on communication via screens is a sign EU folk are in the house.
Happy b, very interesting comment on my friend. I think she does have low self esteem, and yes I sometimes try to reinterpret the way she is seeing people toward a more positive or at least neutral or at least explaining light (as in, well, maybe that person did that because x). At the same time, i feel that when I have low self esteem and need to vent, i turn to people I can trust. This is important – low self esteem doesnt mean that you criticize others in a way that reflects badly on you. ANyway, perhaps she feels safe saying this to me, and maybe its because I am nonjudgmental about it.
Regarding online and men ‘better than us’ or men that just ‘get us’. I had this conversation with a friend whose bf had just ‘got her’ and Nat writes about this as well, connection, passion, chemistry. People with poor boundaries often do well with chemistry – they can fit into anyone’s frame of reference, they are over friendly, over chilled out etc. So chemistry doesnt mean anything, it could just mean that person and you dont have good boundaries.
The question of whether a man might leave you for someone [the implicit idea being someone ‘better’]; first, this assumes that your relationship means nothing to him, that you are replaceable. A good person might also leave you, hopefully not through cheating, and will eventually take up with someone else. That doesnt reflect on you, it reflects on your relationship. Two good people need not mean it works forever. So the important thing here is to remember its you, him, and the relationship. AND perhaps you werent that great to him at some point, and you can learn the lessons from that too – that shouldn’t stop you from trying to find and sustain relationships with the nicest most decent people out there.
AND sometimes I pick really trivial things by which to feel that someone is better than me — while all my friends are telling me, man, he is too stupid for you, walk away, run away! The only real metric of ‘good enough’ is decency, class, grace, kindness etc. – by that metric I was way too good for him. We tend to stress ‘coolness’ or liking the right bands, or career success etc.
I think what we miss out on in this fear of outcomes, is that all that matters is process. You are a strong person, you can handle whatever comes your way (that book – feel the fear and do it anyway!). You can’t control if a ‘better’ man might leave you – you CAN control that on a day to day basis the person you are with treats you well. If one day they stop treating you well? – then you’ll know what to do, you have to trust yourself to know what to do. So all you can control is asking yourself, have I been treated well in the past and right now. Thats it, thats the only thing you need. Clearly this foolish immature man failed on all these counts.
Suki, where you say, ‘i feel that when I have low self esteem and need to vent, i turn to people I can trust.’, this is the issue for me. I used to open up and give my trust too easily. Maybe you’re a good confidante, and maybe I am to my low SE friend who complains about her colleagues – but part of lacking boundaries is that you will give too much away to too many people. I remember Nat writing that it’s like walking around with an open box carrying your memories, values, secrets etc., and letting just about anyone tamper with them as they wish. This is partly why low SE is a danger, because it includes things that are sacred to others as well as yourself. It’s not an excuse, but a reason. Ok I wasn’t that bad, I never gave away others’ secrets, but definitely should have kept more to myself in the workplace when I was like this, and that’s why I wondered about your friend.
I do know the limitations of chemistry, the problem is that I’m equally resolved not to drag myself on dates anymore with people that I have none at all with either. It’s deceptive to think they would be any nicer. I pushed myself on one date with someone who appeared perfectly ‘nice’ and unexciting, and he said the memorable comment – ‘is there anything about your past I should worry about’?
I agree on the importance of process and that’s why I’m not ‘why-meing’ about this guy. Yes he was an AC, yes I have a history with ACs, but the point is that I shed him and the drama when it came to light (could have done a bit sooner) and didn’t let him for one minute change my sense of who I am, even though he attempted to tell me.
Hi Lizzp. Very good point, though I already learned this lesson the hard way, so selected a site and profile that is based on meeting people quickly and without great expectations, but not a hook-up site either. As I said, new to online dating, but years ago I ‘met’ someone in a chat room and it got way out of hand, so I have no trust in people I don’t meet in person.
I didn’t really know anything about this last guy before we met, and I think I had advanced in that I enjoyed being around him but didn’t look past the next date and held onto my reservations. I never thought that was possible before.
Maybe because I wasn’t so invested in him, I let go very easily when I saw his nasty side, even after trying for a whole morning to convince him to see me again. We had a lot in common and had fun, but I didn’t feel at all like I’d lost a possible future.
But yes, loads of texting after we’d met and this probably wasn’t a good idea. Though who knows, maybe without it I would have got more involved with him and not seen his true nature so easily – interesting how people can be more extreme versions of themselves by text.
So, this was not nearly as fantasy-ridden as anything from the past, and I’m learning in that sense. My mistakes were taking him home too early (not thinking it would make a relationship, but just because), and not reading some pretty obvious signals, like him barely using my name.
I’m with you on screens. With the right guy, we’ll talk on the phone more and only text about practical things.
What does it mean when someone hardly uses your name?
Crystal, I just found it strange. Like he never used it. He’d text and say ‘Hi, how’s your day’, and not to my face either. It made me cautious. I wondered if he had an ex with the same name or something else preventing him from saying it.
It could be because he is seeing so many women that he can’t keep the names straight and he doesn’t want to say the wrong one. I’ve read that that is why some guys use babe, honey, etc…to get around actually having to remember your name. Sigh.
Veracity, yes! I suspected this too.
Yeah, I smell some fantasy stuff going on here, as well Lizzp.
HappyB, this guy is the second guy you have slept with, rather quickly, and then turned around and called him an AC for something he did.
You seem to be skipping the “getting to know you,”
in favor of what you think they are, but you don’t know them. At a minimum, you seem to be making a great deal of assumptions…building these guys up and then tearing them down–red flag.
It’s as you said, “he only knew you for five minutes.” Well guess what? That’s also as long as you knew him.
Next time, treat them as the STRANGERS they are…. Slooooooooooooooow down and go through a proper discovery phase. Relax, and enjoy getting to know the person.
Maybe you should go read Natalie’s Dreamer book.
Peppermint, I would still say this wasn’t about fantasy, though I have a strong history of fantasy. I didn’t take him home so soon because I thought we had a relationship, or would do. It was nothing more or less than a possibility. I didn’t build him up into anything or have assumptions. I was being reckless and in the moment, that was the problem, not fantasising. Here was someone treating me with a great deal of physical affection, and I just went with it. Nor did I build up the other guy and have any fantasy. They are very different people and very different circumstances, but in both cases, I would say they were in the wrong for thinking they could mistreat me because I’d ‘given’ myself. I didn’t ask for it or deserve it, but have to accept they can be the consequences.
I’m going to get controversial now and say this was fun while it lasted. It turned out nasty and I’ve called him names, but I didn’t get too attached to him.
But you’ve given me food for thought and I do heed your advice about the discovery phase, I really do. next time someone is a long-term prospect, I will give it time to unfold before i make myself so vulnerable.
No it doesn’t sound controversial. It sounds narcissistic. You seem to have lost your way.
Try to swing your pendulum back the other way before you meet a real narc, who will snack on you at night, “just because.” Nobody is buying your spin,but you.
Unless of course you are a narc, if that’s the case, any man out there who meets you should run the other way.
Suki, That’s a great point (reminder) to be careful of letting people in too early…before you learn if they are trustworthy. I’ve made that mistake too many times in the past. I like them instantly or they are really fun, etc…
They can be really fun, but until they earn my trust I’m going to be wary, I’ve been burned too many times.
Now that I have that frame of mind I tend to want to run from women that want to fuse instantly. I can see it from the other side now and it’s not healthy and certainly not self protective. I feel compassion for them, but I’m certainly not spilling my guts!
I also agree that it is shocking how quickly we trust men sometimes and how easily we lose trust in ourselves.
This is the first time I’ve been back to Baggage Reclaim in many months and I’m so glad to see the pearls of wisdom that finally helped free me from EUMs and ACs are still helping others! Great advice again Nat, thanks so much for all your hard work. The last time I saw the AC who I was tearing myself up about on BR, I was paying a cab driver to get him the hell off my doorstep. He finally got the message and disappeared off with his ex for a while before zeroing in on someone new. I’ve been in a mutual relationship with me for 18 months now and it’s the most rewarding and secure relationship I’ve ever experienced. I’ve also had a purge on fairweather friends and these days my life is full of genuine, loving people who are more like family to me. I spend much of my time volunteering to help others and not a day goes by when I’m not thankful for the strength that brought me here, away from all the misery and regret of non-mutual attempts at being part of someone else’s life. I even heard from a friend recently that the EUM workaholic I’d previously posted about was considering leaving his new GF – BECAUSE SHE WORKS TOO MUCH. We had a laugh about that, but to be honest they could get married in my lounge and I wouldn’t care. Why? Because I’ve taken the focus off them and brought it back to me and I’m now living my life! And that means being selective about the people I share my time and energy with, a lesson I wouldn’t have learned without the help of Nat and my fellow Baggage Reclaimers! Lots of love to you all xxx
Congratulations on changing your life! You give me hope!
Veracity. My answer to your question is further up this post. Hope it’s helpful.
It is very helpful, Tinkerbell. Thank you for your thoughtful answer!
Finally Free,
Thank you so much for posting. What an eloquent story of self-worth and everything that NML talks about! Sending you love and gratitude. I hope to get to that place of total independence from “non-mutual attempts at being part of someone else’s life” some time very very soon. Thank you for sharing once again.
Beautifully said. Thank you Finally Free. V.
Guys, I need to share my story and get advice. I’ve been sitting here feeling sick all day.
I’ve been casually involved with a self-proclaimed EUM for about eight months. About two months ago we started having sex rather than just hanging out/kissing/talking/”bonding”. The whole time he has said that we are “just friends”. He sees other women, is open with me about that. And here I have gone, doing all the classic behaviours I’ve read about on this site – hoping he’ll realize how awesome our bond is, being shocked that he can be so casual and dismissive of what has become, to me, really important.
I feel like shit. I am a very accomplished and successful woman and I am furious that he would “reject” me in favour of others when he really ain’t that great. I’ve become completely dependent on him to feel good about myself.
This past week we have spent a lot of time together. He slept at my house multiple times. He cried one night and told me he is jealous of my relationship with a close guy friend, even though he knows it isn’t fair for him to be. We went out for breakfast and then actually held hands and kissed in public. It has really felt lately like we are getting very close. I felt really nice and positive about things. And then last night he went and spent the evening with one of his other women. He apologized to me and I fired off a really mean text. And now I feel sick.
I can’t cut him out of my life. We have the same friends, and we work together. I see him by accident all the time, as we hang out at the same spot. We have been good friends.
I don’t understand how he can be so weird to me. I have no idea what to do.
Jane, you have to cut him out of your life. You still believe somewhere that if he only realised what you have, or if you only did something different, he would change his behaviour. He sounds just like my ex EUM, spending all this intense, close time together and then snap! onto the next woman from his menu and referring you back to his terms and conditions. It has nothing to do with how great you are, it’s just a ravenous ego that needs a constant supply of women falling for him, and it’s soul destroying to go through it.
You don’t have to hang out at the same spot, find somewhere new to hang out. I had to quit FB and lose contact with our shared friends when I cut him out, but it was worth it. He was a family friend and we shared everything, but I managed it. Being alone is much better than thinking about where he is and letting his own shallow desires determine your worth, and I suspect his friends aren’t that great anyway. Find people who better reflect your values. You’re unwilling to let go so are coming up with imaginary barriers. Keep posting here, and read up on EUMs.
Jane – I did the same thing for 2 years. TWO YEARS! I thought for sure he would see how great we would be together. He finally professed his feelings for me when I was dating someone else and told him I saw it going somewhere. These men chase feelings and avoid themselves with the cat and mouse game. I never thought I could cut him out of my life. But I had too when he told me he was talking to someone new 3 months after we broke up. I tried staying away from him after we broke up. But he started pestering me to see a movie a month after he broke up with me. Probably because he was bored. Its all about him. I finally gave in, telling myself I could handle a movie and keep my distance. I was wrong. We fell back into old habits of hanging out all the time and fwb. We were fwb before we ever started a relationship just like you and this guy. A couple days after he had initiated sex, he told me he was talking to someone new and I was devastated. I thought maybe he was going to change is mind about us but I was wrong. Instead he found someone who was on the same level EU as him. You are using ‘I can’t cut him out my life’ as an excuse. You may have the same friends….but you don’t have to hang out with them while he is there. If you work together, avoid him at work. You have to go to NC. You can not waste anymore time like I did. He is not going to get serious and even if he does, it won’t be the way you deserve, and it won’t be for forever. He will blow hot for a while, and then blow cold. He sounds a lot like my ex. While we were fwb he was always looking for the next best thing it felt like. And I wanted to yell ‘Look right in front of you!!’ But he felt something was missing, and what is missing is him.
Jane you’re so close to recognising this man for what he is. He thinks he’s a player, a Casanova, a shark. Too bad for him those terms went out of fashion long ago. The term is now assclown.
This man is full of lies and deception, right down to those crocodile tears and hand-holding to try to throw you off the scent of his plans to see another woman a couple days later. Is that the kind of man you want or deserve? Of course not! Well not unless you say it is. And no one here at BR will let you do that!
You say you have no idea what to do, but I think what you mean is that you have no idea how to face up to doing what you know you need to do, and that’s to let your feelings for this undeserving assclown shrivel and die. You were right to stand up for yourself — that mean text was you trying to defend yourself. Anger protects you. You should have been angry! Let that be your final words to him — let it go. Remember that silence is stronger than noise. Silence becomes you, it’s powerful and it puts you in control. He will probably try to take that power away from you, try to stir you up, try to reel you back in so that he can play more games with your mind. Don’t let him! Hang onto that silence for dear life and before too long, you’ll realise your rose-coloured glasses are gone and you’re seeing the assclown in the cold light of ordinariness.
Oh Jane, and anybody else who is still coming to BR for help and advice. Reading this reminds me of me 2-3 years ago, just on the verge of finally sorting out one of the biggest EUMs. There were a few, but I have no doubts who was the worst of them all, dragging me through mess for nearly 3 years. Nat’s books were an absolute savior – a starting point to a multi-months self-therapy. It took time, a lot of effort, and a lot of stumbling to get myself right. I was initiating the NCs, then breaking them, then feeling angry at myself… You might be going through a lot of that yourself. You know that this guy is no good – yet you’re still not strong enough sometimes. But it’s like with gym workouts. You keep building strength, and whenever you’re weak you just try the next day again, and again, and again. It gets easier with time, I promise.
And ultimately if you HONESTLY can’t do the full NC (e.g. if you work together) then it’s more about your attitude than anything else. Just be sure that you’re not cheating yourself. If you REALLY have to meet him / talk to him at work – fine. But is it REALLY the case, or is it just an excuse? Are you really forced to talk to HIM about that work issue, or do you choose him instead of somebody else? Only you will know. And whenever it’s unavoidable, just keep it polite but strictly professional. As for the being friends part – real friends don’t mess up with your mind and don’t make you cry. Simple. (And trust me, I am coming from exactly same position).
And what I can say is that it is worth the wait, and it is worth being strong and kicking any EUMs out of our life (or at least heart). After years of being fed the breadcrumbs diet, I met that one awful last guy and said “this is it”. I decided that I’m much better on my own than with any of that. I was on a dating site so was meeting quite a few people but I decided that I will accept absolutely no substitutes and no half-measures. That obviously didn’t mean that I wanted a proposal on a first date – but after dealing for years with EUMs you kind of start recognizing them when you see them. 😉 And Nat’s checklists / code red/ambers etc. were obviously helpful too. Whenever I had a hunch that it’s yet another EUM – it was quick mission abort. Over time you get better with that 🙂
And then one day I got a message from this guy which was refreshingly normal. We exchanged a couple more messages, then started dating. At first I was very careful – even though he was doing all the right things, I was continuously reminding myself that I still don’t know him very well, and that these things often start nice and then turn into a disaster. For the first time ever, before investing all my emotions I was checking that this guy is actually worth it. One tiny step at a time, as dates and weeks passed he was consistently there, consistent in showing that he liked me, enjoyed my company, asking for another date, consistent in being emotionally available. Slowly I opened up. It’s been nearly 2 years that we’ve been together now. I never cried because of him. I never have to wonder if he cares about me, what he wants or thinks. He’s just perfect for me, and every day I’m grateful to Nat, because if it wasn’t for her books I’d probably be still waiting for that biggest EUM of my life to realize how “special our bond was”. Blah.
I once read something along the lines “when you finally meet that person, you’ll realize why it hasn’t worked out with anybody else”. I don’t know if it’s always like that, but for me the experiences of the EUMs certainly made me appreciate my boyfriend much more, I know how rare our bond is (and this time, it’s a real one).
Please, please be strong 🙂 Find yourself, enjoy your own company, spend time with your (real) friends. Remember you are a complete person, and you have a lot to offer to somebody who is willing to take it, and reciprocate. Just wait. You will find him.
Also, whilst movies and books often show us the “she loved him long enough so he finally loved her back” story line, real life hardly ever works this way. It’s time to move on. There is someone out there who can’t wait to find you – but he never will if you keep chasing this guy instead.
Wow what a great story! Thanks for writing it! It’s funny that the names are already very telling, ItIsWorthTheWait, and above there’s a Finally Free with some interesting post along the same lines 🙂 Cheers, V.
I concur, what a great story! Thank you for taking time to share it.
And this line rings especially true for me: “There is someone out there who can’t wait to find you – but he never will if you keep chasing this guy instead”. I think we get stuck with waiting on those ambivalent men that it’s impossible that there are other out there who are actually putting effort in and actively seeking a partner like us.
Hurrah to this. I have pretty much the same story, years of EUMs and heartbreak, before finally reaching my line, ditching the last, terrible life-force sucker, getting therapy and finally being really truly single. Not single but heartbroken, (sometimes i think heartbreak was a substitute for a relationship for me) but just…alone. Realising I had to treat me well before i could expect anyone else to. That was hard. Hardest thing I’ve ever done. But by the time I had learned, I was no longer in the zone for wasting any more time or taking any more shit. And, just like It’sWorthTheWait, I met a lovely, funny, decent, open guy online, when i was 38. Yes, there’s all that stuff about age and men prefer blah blah blah but you know what EVERYBODY loves? Someone who loves themselves. They can’t help but want to be with them, maybe because it’s so damn rare! Anyway, like you, Worththewait, I took my time, reminded myself I didn;t know him, had Nat;s words in my head, ‘let him unfold, let this unfold’ – and as each layer unfolded, it just got better and better. Now 14 months later we are living together and we have a happiness i didn’t even think existed. No tears, a LOT of laughter and so much mutual care – it’s actually quite amazing what a relationship can be like if there are two people who are genuinely in it. Please, if you are mired in the quicksand of a relationship that is basically just self-abuse by another name, then cut contact, get therapy, do the hard work of re-connecting with yourself and then let all that good stuff come to you, as it absolutely will. xxx
This is a great post. For the past 2 years of being single I’ve felt like I needed to apologize for wanting a relationship and not just enjoying my freedom. I realize now that I wanted a relationship for all the wrong reasons (filling up a void, low self-worth, etc) and that is what made me fall for Mr. EUM who faded out and did not contact me or respond to my texts for days. You ladies were right, he messaged me after 10 days of silence and tried to press the reset button. I continued no contact but unfortunately broke it when he intimated that I was playing games by not responding. How dare he! Well many texts, days, and tears later, and a lot of flip flapping on his end, I ended the relationship of 4 months. Yay me! It was really hard and before reading Natalie’s book and these posts I would have still been hanging in there and trying to make it work like I did with my previous EUMs (6 years, 6 years, and 10 years). Current EUM is begging and saying all the empty words he can think of to try to keep me. I told him words are not going to work, it takes actions. My last texts to him were that I’m done texting about this and he can call me or see me if he’s going to make an effort for the relationship (we live 4 hours apart though). I said texting means nothing to me. It’s lazy. That was so empowering! I reread the should I give him a second chance post so that I can prepare, set boundaries, and be self-protective before I let myself get sucked in again. Thanks all for your support!
Hi guys. Thanks Nat for great posts. Look forward to them every time. My story – was married 42 years, he was 17 and I was 20 when we met and had 2 children together. Have been divorced now 2 years. Since then I have had a relationship with a guy 20 years younger for 1 and 1/2 years,I ended the relationship for all the reasons you have posted on here “blowing hot and cold”,texting most of the time, not wanting to introduce me to his family. etc. Have been through so much “sh……t” in this recent dating world, it is mind-boggling. So, my point is, I am finding it a whole different dating world out there today than what is was over 40 years ago. Back then, when I was dating my ex-husband, you didn’t have online dating to hind behind and exaggerate your profile, wearing sunglasses, etc., what you saw in person is what you got.If the guy liked you back then he would ask you to wear his “friendship” ring, which meant you were monogamous with each other, if things didn’t work out between you, you would tell them and give them the ring back, then move on to the next “boyfriend/girlfriend”. It was called “respect”. Nowadays, there seems to be no “regard/respect”, because people can hide behind their computers “chat lines”, phones “txtng” and there is no “respect”, just like school kids will not give up their seats on a bus or train for a lady or an elderly person. Have had the “old fashioned” love in a relationship and it lasted 42 years. Maybe came to an end for whatever reason. But have come to realise that today’s dating world is a whole lot different. The games that are played – the selfishness. Has been a HUGE learning curve for me. One needs to be informed, one needs to see the red flags of the “Games”.
Lisa, what a great empowering comment!
As I was reading it I realized that while we, if we stay with them, keep obsessingly pushing and squeezing a relationship and commitment out of them which they are never capable of giving, they, on the other hand, are obsessively and repeatedly pushing the reset button. I always saw exEUM as a person not being bother by anything but I saw it now that most of them actually do have their obsessions. Pushing the reset and forcing amnesia on you being the biggest of their obsessions.
And.it.never.changes. Just in this post alone there are women who talk about their exes re-appearing and trying to force you buy into a picture of the past where they did nothing bad and how dare you remember it! I was talking with an exEUM today. Regarding work issues. And I instantly caught him pressing the reset button even in this context! The difference now is that I took a mental note, did not give him a lecture on his behavior, laughed softly and wrapped the conversation up and left to work on other things without being crushed by his behavior. In fact, without thinking about it for another second.
Jane –
you know the answer already, dont you?
you have to stop seeing him or sleeping with him!
If you were meant to be friends, you still will be again in years to come. Thats how I feel about my experience. But for now, trust me, step AWAY.
I have been there – or almost there. But the moment I knew (as opposed to was lied to) about another woman, (aside from his wife!) I knew it had to end.
I felt sick ill everything I described a few posts above.
And not a day goes by that I dont regret not stepping away earlier. The next step is forgivint yourself which weirdly might be harder than forgiving him.
I think that when you repeatedly attract EUM’s or stay with them for years knowing it’s not satisfying or meeting your deepest needs it’s because you yourself are EUM. We tell ourselves that we want love, care trust and respect but what are we really doing to have that? We get into bad relationships, getting kicked about because of low self esteem. We don’t want to be alone. God forbid. We’re so damaged from these abusive rships that when a decent guy comes along we don’t know to act. We’ve become conditioned to poor treatment and then it becomes a self=fulfilling prophecy. When we do the work of loving ourselves we will attract healthier people into our lives. When we consistently engage with men who are unavailable for one reason or another, we are actually sabotaging ourselves from what we tell ourselves we want. There aren’t a whole lot of men to be had anywhere it seems. But if we want that rare man who is EA, it starts with being EA ourselves. All this hooking up with MM’s and coworkers, obsessing on FB over some dude we hardly know reveals that we’re not really wanting an available person. Social media and the proliferation of one reality show after another is really worrisome. It keeps us out of touch with the real world and with each other. What has happened to true intimacy? I wonder what kind of world will my grandchildren be dealing with. Texting, IM and Skype are replacing communication in the flesh.
I’m all over the place with my thoughts as it’s 6am here and I’ve been on BR for over an hour already. But reading the posts of Finally Free, Jane and Lisa which say much of the some things just prompted me to write.
One last thing. My very best friend had been divorced for nearly 30 years and got remarried at 62. She was always a very driven person, busy with church activities, went back to school for her masters at 60, never even had time to feel lonely or miss having a man and what happens? She gets a marriage proposal. Here I am wanting so much to be in love and the chance of that ever happening again is nil. Life sometimes can be so unfair. I’ll sign off now, hoping I haven’t bored you all to tears.
Tinkerbell, I’m surprised that you dont see hope in your friends story. Alone for 30 years and then to find someone? Isn’t that a source of hope that really just live your life, there is time for all of us to find what we want and need? And wouldn’t you also feel bad for her – she waited 30 years to find someone. Anyway – I’m curious why you see this as negatively reflecting on your chances. It seems your friend lived a good life, but who knows how lonely she was those 30 years.
I dont understand how her engagement makes your life unfair (actually I totally understand having these impulses myself sometimes with different things – I dont usually grudge someone this type of happiness, career success is what i spend my time envying). Her finding someone isn’t subtracting your chances and instead shows that people find people all the time at all ages. All those posts up thread that said that women in their late 30s aren’t finding men – well, a 62 year old just did. Good on her!
Hi Tinkerbell,
I have to agree. I can say I have never had a successful relationship and it was only when I came across Baggage Reclaim
I couldn’t put it down to bad luck I had to look at me as well.
I am an EUM. Unfortunately it is a huge contradiction I say I want to be loved etc. but when it comes to the crunch I chose another EUM to try and extract love from.
I also think my chances of finding love is nil. I struggle with people who find their partners when they are young and grow old together, I struggle with people who divorce one person and are happily remarrying the next person. I think what do they have that I am so lacking in?
Sorry this post is all I but I do agree and relate to what you are saying.
PS I won’t be one of those patronizing people who say oh you will meet someone when the time is right.
Suki. As usual you bring up some good points, esp. that I seem to feel her finding happiness after 30 years detracts from my chances of the same and that I’m begrudging her. If that’s what you got out of my post, it is wrong. On the contrary, I do feel that what has happened for her begets hope for me and I love her. I don’t begrudge. I am happy for her. I just wish it could have been me ALSO. I don’t begrudge her or feel envious because that would mean I want to have her happiness INSTEAD of her. I say it’s unfair because she admits that she was so busy and involved in her life that she didn’t have time to miss the company of a man. I’m happy with my life but as I have said before I want a man’s company to go out on dates, and to share the myriad experience just living offers. My dear friend (male) is LD, and while we have stimulating convos and plenty of laughter, he is not here with me. I don’t want marriage and don’t want any cohabiting because I like my privacy. I just would like to company of a man at times. Yes, her finding someone certainly does say to me that there’s hope for me. I just wish it would happen. My life has been so tumultuous for so many years, dealing with one catastrophy after another that I’m thinking perhaps God wants me to continue alone and at peace for now.
Suki. In the meantime, I do get out there and go places with a gf. I try to avoid sitting at home most of the time. However, I’m basically a homebody and apparently when I go out with friends we’re not going to the right places or engaging in activities that might be conducive to my meeting somebody. Any suggestions?
Tinkerbell, perhaps more activities, get out more, classes, yoga, church whatever works for you. You aren’t looking to meet single men, you are looking to meet anyone – you might find an interesting gf or interesting career-related contact who introduces you to others. But the point of social life is not to be instrumental, its to enjoy.
If you feel centered enough, then online dating but it seems to be such a swamp out there I wouldn’t bother. A pet? A hobby? Be so busy living a life that you dont even miss it? I dont miss it, I’m in my 30s, I feel bad sometimes when i see a couple holding hands and I’m by myself. There was a time that grocery shopping alone used to really get me. At other times I’m like jeez spending the entire weekend with someone? Ooffff, sounds like work!
We’re all where we are for a reason, choices we made and are making right now. Make your situation work for you. Perhaps you really aren’t that unhappy being single, you just think you are, but you aren’t. Acceptance is important. Dont buy into what society wants of you. Look for a man that is fun to be with, it will change how you are approaching this process. I meet lots of fun guys, I dont want to date them, but sometimes its nice to hang out with them, they are fun, different perspective from women, less personal conversations. Its different. Plus I learn, how to manage my boundaries around guys because even though I dont want to date them, doesnt mean some of them dont try.
I guess all I’m saying is do what works for you. A homebody might not meet someone so easily – and that is fine. Why force yourself into something you’re not? Work with your strengths and not combating your weaknesses. If you’re a homebody, invest more in home, pets, new furniture, new windows, patio, gardening whatever. Find events that are homelike – start a reading group that meets in your home etc. Embrace that part of you.
Oh I am having a strange day today. Time to pick oneself off the floor yet again 🙂
Suki. Thanks so much for your suggestions. I could get out more than I do. I claim to extroverted but I can handle lot of alone time. I’ve had the good fortune to adopt a wonderful cat. Have always had pets as I’m an animal lover. I’m much happier and less anxious since he has been with me. Take classes is a very good idea so I need to investigate what’s offered that I would enjoy. A book club is perfect except I don’t know how to go about it because although I love reading I’m pretty selective. Anyway, I have decided to join a gym to not only lose a few pounds to have another outlet for being with others. Every spring and summer I take great pleasure in gardening but that’s a lone activity. I will focus on activities that get me out of the house. I spend too much time with head in a book, watching tv, or on my pc, all solitary activities. You make a good point when you say that I may enjoy being single more than I think I do. I know I will not dance to the beat of anyone’s drum but my own. Thanks Suki for taking the time. My sister has suggested to me the same things you’ve mentioned, especially finding a hobby (besides reading and gardening}. I will try to redirect my focus. Maybe I will even discover that having a boyfriend is much less important.
Incognito. Agreed. I can’t stand it when people say I’ll meet someone when the time is right. WTF is that supposed to mean anyway? Thank goodness we have BR to let out our frustrations while finding that many others are feeling the same frustrations. I, too, struggle with women who always seem to have a man. But you know what? You don’t know what exactly is going on. I was always quite attractive as a younger woman and always had a boyfriend. But, now I wouldn’t put up with 1/10th the crap I did back then. I wasn’t a doormat, but I was very good at making excuses for their bad behavior. Now, with a much stronger sense of self worth, I’m no longer that person. That’s the difference.
Hi Natalie
Thank you for this post- it came just at the right time for me.
A friend texted me the poem “the journey by Mary Oliver” a few years ago. I read it and cried, but I wasnt ready then.
I think I am now, and reading BR has been really helpful in getting me ready.
I had my first therapy session this evening, and am ready to face a life without a/c, mm, and any other idiots!
It’s going to be tough (big idiot has informed me of his presence tomorrow). The old me would get the red carpet and balloons out.
He doesn’t know about the new me and how the light bulb has finally come on- nor does he need to. But when he does, I know the knocks at the door will get louder! But I’m not doing this for that reason. I’ve missed me for a long time, and am looking forwards, not backwards.
Thanks BR and Natalie 🙂
thanks Lalamwah! I’m posting this here.
“The Journey
One day you finally knew
what you had to do, and began,
though the voices around you
kept shouting
their bad advice —
though the whole house
began to tremble
and you felt the old tug
at your ankles.
“Mend my life!”
each voice cried.
But you didn’t stop.
You knew what you had to do,
though the wind pried
with its stiff fingers
at the very foundations,
though their melancholy
was terrible.
It was already late
enough, and a wild night,
and the road full of fallen
branches and stones.
But little by little,
as you left their voices behind,
the stars began to burn
through the sheets of clouds,
and there was a new voice
which you slowly
recognized as your own,
that kept you company
as you strode deeper and deeper
into the world,
determined to do
the only thing you could do —
determined to save
the only life you could save.”
? Mary Oliver
That’s the one! I think it’s very powerful and apt to some of us.
I saw ex mm at work for the first time today. I smiled and said hello and carried on with my own life.
When he then contacted me about work, I remained strictly professional.
Baby steps but man alive do I feel so much better for it!
Incognito- I agree about not finding someone. It amazes me when I see people either having multiple affairs ie several people in love with them at once, or as you say, divorced and remarrying.
How do they do it? Even EUs and ACs manage.
Am I missing something?
I’d like to believe we all have a fair chance at everything but I’m sure that’s not true. I’m also sure women are less fortunate.
It all makes me rather cynical… and maybe turns me into being guarded and emotionally unavailable.
Forget the Bermuda Triangle. To me this remains one of life’s biggest mysteries.
“It amazes me when I see people either having multiple affairs ie several people in love with them at once, or as you say, divorced and remarrying.
How do they do it? Even EUs and ACs manage.
Am I missing something?”
I would imagine that if you lowered your standards that you too could have multiple affairs, have lots of guys chasing you, get remarried, etc..
Is that really the end goal? I’ve seen lots of people that have gone that route and they “got their man” and are miserable.
I’m trusting that if I (you) do the work, improve my self love/esteem, live (love) my life that I will attract someone who feels the same way. And when that happens we will have a much better shot at a happy, healthy relationship. If I do not end up in a relationship, then that time/energy will not have been wasted because it was spent well.
I am so terribly lonely. I signed up for another round of match.com a few days ago and already am regretting it. I exchanged texts with one man who seemed normal, at least on the surface, then the conversation got weird. He said he really liked women with cute feet. I ignored this thinking “ok, and.” He then made a few comments more about feet and I said jokingly that he better stay away from my feet. He told me to be nice and then creepily said, You don’t like attention to your feet Jane? (not my real name) He kept going and finally I googled search for a pic of the ugliest feet I could fine sent it to him and told him they were mine and to enjoy and then hit ‘block.’
Another seemingly normal man with kids, a bit older than me, were messaging and he just couldnt get over the fact that we shared the same astrological sign and how sexually compatible we would be. Ugh, gross.
Needless to say I am a bit discouraged with online dating and don’t know where else to meet men because I seldom go out and work with all women.I know I should just be patient and work on myself and eventually the right or wrong person will come by way, but it is hard. I am bored, lonely and getting restless.
Oh, and if you are dating online or have in the past check out itsnotamatch.com (it’s not a match .com) Very funny and informative.
“ok, and.” He then made a few comments more about feet and I said jokingly that he better stay away from my feet. He told me to be nice and then creepily said, You don’t like attention to your feet Jane? (not my real name) He kept going and finally I googled search for a pic of the ugliest feet I could fine sent it to him and told him they were mine and to enjoy and then hit ‘block.’
LOL! Good for you! …too many freaks online for me.
I saw an episode of Dr. Phil, where a seventy-year old woman gave her online-text-phone boy friend close to a half-of-a-million dollars. I felt really bad for her…not that my pity will do her any good. She helped more people than I by going on tv and drawing attention to this problem. It is a great reminder to be careful on-line, etc. She said she gave him all of the money, and shipped her furniture overseas to an African country, (She is an American) because he tells her he loves her. Sheesh, watch your mental health ladies and gents. I’m watching mine.
Sissy26; you’re not working on yourself to meet someone, at least I hope not. You’re working on yourself because there really is no option but living the best life you can. When you do meet someone, will you stop living that good life? No. This is preparing you to deal with life in all its forms – you could meet someone, and they could leave you, move away, lose their job, fall sick, be a pain in the butt etc. You could fall sick, have trials and tribulations – you’re building yourself up so that you have strength to deal with life. They will not ‘save’ you from boredom or restlessness. HOw can they? They are not magick.
I feel for you. I am lonely a lot. You have to love yourself though, you have to be fascinating to yourself. Why would anyone else be if you’re not? They’re not looking for someone thats bored. You’ll find what you are putting out. I was putting out ‘too chilled and too tired and too cool to care’ – and thats what I got, thats what I created, a guy I had fun with, who treated me badly, and I let him, and I let him come back to me multiple times. I was too cool to care – I learnt a lot of valuable lessons. I treated him as I would like to treat the next guy, I was kind and decent and no drama, it was just a waste on someone like him – and I didn’t treat myself right. If I could fix that, I’d be fine…
@Suki @littleoleme @V @Amarilla
I greatly appreciate your responses and I feel that I am working on myself for myself and also to better prepare me for dating and meeting the right person in the sense that I no longer want to attract and accept abusive men.
I am trying very hard to love myself, to be my own best friend, but this is hard for me at least at this point in my life because I have been so beaten down by allowing the wrong people (men, friends, and family) to stay in my life way longer than I ever should. But I am learning and I do know that it is important for me to heal before I seriously consider dating. As some of you have mentioned, the lonely days can be brutal.
Suki, I totally agree with what you said about finding what you’re putting out and right now I don’t feel that great about myself and my life and that is exactly what I will get in return from a man. Someone who plays on those vulnerabilities, takes them, feigns empathy, and then uses my weaknesses against me.
And OMG Amarilla, that poor woman!
Well between online dating and hoping for a man to fall from the sky and land right at your feet there is: going out, taking up new hobbies, extending the circle of friends, do some volunteering… the usual. Or not? This way you resolve the restless/bored problem too. V.
Sissy26 I totally get how you feel. When we want a relationship and struggle to find someone compatible it can be so frustrating. I tried online dating briefly; it was awful. I need to meet people in person to get a sense for whether they will be a good match or not. Pictures and a profile don’t give me an accurate enough feel for who they are. Unfortunately with my work situation and the small city I live in I don’t come across very many people.
I too have had that feeling of being bored, lonely, and restless. Since reading BR I’ve realized that I’ve been looking for a relationship to save me from myself. As soon as I meet someone that provides me with an opportunity to escape my life, I’m fantasizing about how wonderful things will be once I am with him. The thing is, when I’m actually in the relationship, I start feeling bored, lonely, and restless and then create drama, sabotage, cheat, and leave.
It’s funny (not funny) I blamed the problems of the relationships I’ve been in on the EUM because I start off being the passive EU person. But then eventually I end up being the active EU person. From what I understand that is not uncommon.
So now I know that in order to stop the cycle that I need to find ways to not be bored and lonely ON MY OWN so that I don’t drag anyone else in to my misery. I joined the gym and started taking classes. I’m working on my self-worth. I’m doing Natalie’s getting out of stuck program. I’m visiting friends out of state. I’m treating myself better. I’m setting boundaries in my relationships. I’m stepping away from toxic people. I’m building connections with the few friends and family I already have and being open to finding new ones. And overall I’m working at being happy with just me.
Until then, I truly believe that I will continue attracting people like the EUM that I’m very, very, cautiously considering giving a second chance. I know, I know, putting my hand in the fire again.
@LittleOleMe: Great comment, every single word about the passive/active EU dynamics is (was) true for me too. In the end I was forced by life circumstances to face the self I was running away from, as you say, and now I know that I was right in fearing it so much. The pain is (was) almost unbearable; there is no other way to go though. Thanks for sharing. Best, V.
I agree very much with this post. Many times in my encounters with EUMs (guys I dated that didn’t want a “relationship” or boyfriends who would future fake marriage and kids ) I found myself feeling embarrassed or guilty saying I wanted to settle down and have a family and didn’t want to settle. Some of these guys would almost make you feel like you were asking too much or for something crazy, when deep down most women want that.
After a 2 year relationship with my ex EUM bf, when he wouldn’t leave me alone to move on for his own selfish reasons I finally blocked him for good 2 months ago and I can say I never see myself with him again. Even the idea of kissing him sounds weird (yay! Big step). This last two months since I finally cut him out of my life completely, I have been getting dates left and right. It’s almost as if my energy was giving the green light to date again. I have had many so so dates with guys I really didn’t feel that spark with except for one. He was a mutual friend and out of my break up 4 months ago he asked me out but didn’t offer to pick me up so I cancelled that day annoyed, I then heard he was “bummed” I cancelled and that he just thought I may have felt uncomfortable having him get me on our first date. Fair enough. Some time passed and I heard through our friends he still wanted to take me out and we had an obvious miscommunication that what I took as being “lazy or convenient” was more his concern for my comfort on a first date. So I followed my friends advice and reached out and suggest a second chance at a date and he jumped on the opportunity saying he’d love to. He picked me up, we had a fantastic time and he told me himself he did then we kissed goodnight (first kiss) and we chatted through text once he got home (a guy that has never called..RED FLAG). Then a week passes and I heard NOTHING. I was beyond baffled and thought ok if he’s not into fine, but mind you he was actively liking all my pics on Facebook (mixed messages RED FLAG). My best friends Bday celebration was a week after our date and I noticed he confirmed after I did on Facebook. Then without knowing what to expect I show up to the party and he was hanging out with me the entire time calling be “gorgeous” and his friend was asking about our date which I replied to “it was great, but your buddy never contacted me so I really don’t know what to think”. Thinking ok everyone says this guy is a great guy (my female friends say this) I figure maybe he is why because I blew him off before. We leave the party around midnight to go to a bar and this guy tells me he will meet me there and never shows! My friend texts him and he said “sorry lady too tired”. Hey thanks for the text jackass. Through that week before the party I was pretty confused and bummed and then realized I was falling back into the same role of being sad over an EUM but after this experience I realize this is NOT for me and he is not it for me and next! I should have stuck with my gut feeling of this Guy being flakey and an EUM (used to only text and half the time just to ask what I was doing then not ask for me to meet up or to see me). He is just plain weird and my friends now agree that they have seen the dating side of him. If I wanted to settle for less than my ex who actually called me daily and took me out all the time and was romantic I would have stayed with him. It’s funny how you slip back into habits but thanks to this site I caught myself right away and find these flakey guys a huge turn off anymore. I think for the women the best rule that has helped me a lot is to let the man pursue you and even when dating or in a relationship you can be vulnerable but let the man work for you, contact you, make effort and don’t become a housewife without the proper commitment. It saves us all a ton of heartache and wasted time. I don’t care if it’s 2020, let the man be the man and the ACs won’t stand a chance for long.
He is shy because I blew him off before* typo
Eyes Wide Open. I was concerned for you throughout your post about what you were saying, but you concluded with a wise summation. “I think for the women the best rule that has helped me a lot is to let the man pursue you and even when dating or in a relationship you can be vulnerable but let the man work for you, contact you, make effort and don’t become a housewife without the proper commitment. It saves us all a ton of heartache and wasted time. I don’t care if it’s 2020, let the man be the man and the AC’s won’t stand a chance for long.” Very well put. I could not have said it better. I wish more young women would reach the same conclusion. Men (not an AC, or EUM) prefer to take the lead and don’t appreciate being chased down. Plus, you feel better when he’s showing that he wants you (consistently, of course). We may live in the modern age but some things, especially pertaining to human nature, haven’t changed. Good for you!
?
?
I think I have a habit of using worse judgment when I get a crush. I’d say I can date pretty logically if I go out with someone I haven’t developed butterflies for. With someone I already am giddy over it’s like I try to look for excuses for their behavior as a way to justify staying involved with them. I want to be reasonable no matter who I see but does that mean my feelings will have to be more neutral to do that? When someone actually excites me that feeling is so addictive that I have a hard time letting go in my mind even though I try to act ok on the outside. What should I be doing differently?
Your inner voice will tell you when things aren’t right. But we ignore that voice (our gut instinct) because we want the relationship. When a person starts out acting shady they’re not going to suddenly start treating you right. Why should they if you are comfortable accepting bad behavior and being a doormat. What’s more, it will inevitably get worse. You try to reason with them ONCE. If they don’t straighten up, don’t stick around. Flush!
Thank you both. Luckily this last instance I found out it was a bad situation almost right away and it was instantly confirmed when they vanished. So even though I’ve decided to do everything I can to move on I’m still struggling. It was such a brief dating experience and I’m getting frustrated that I’m not mentally recovered yet.
@heretogrow-
I struggle with this same problem, and so I actually have pre-established limits on how frequently a guy I’ve just begun dating can see me (2 times the first wk, 2 times the second wk, 3 times the 3rd wk, 3 times the 4th wk). Of course, I never tell the guy that I have these rules, but I just won’t allow myself to be available for him any more often than that. Some people say that these predefined limits are too rigid and instead I should listen to my instincts. And I say that my instincts or my gut or whatever it is I’ve been following has misled me WAY too many times, and I need these pre-established limits for my own self protection.
I think that is smart Snowboard. It is a great way to slow things down. Well done! 🙂
Also, I wanted to say I think it’s really important to recognize and honor our own limitations. It doesn’t mean we will have these same limits for the rest of our lives, but it might, and that’s okay. I think it’s a healthy form of self-love, self-compassion, and self-acceptance, and … that helps us move on and live our lives to the fullest.
Heretogrow,
In my past, I too have jumped the gun with men I was “giddy” over and gave them the benefit of the doubt when they used and abused me in some way. What I have learned is that love is not something that occurs in an instant, but something that grows over time and naturally progresses. A man who rushes a relationship with you or professes his love for you after two weeks is someone you should run from.
If you find yourself getting swept away in a rush of emotions and butterflies and feelings of immature love put the brakes on and remind yourself that those feelings are infatuation and try and go slower. Get to know the person first before you decide you are in love or he is the one. There is nothing wrong with taking your time. Trust me, I had to learn this the hard way.
Thanks Tink 🙂 I agree that mean like the chase, the hunt. It’s something they are born with which is why they enjoy sports. It isn’t about playing hard to get or playing games, it’s about letting a man court you and show you he’s there and invested instead of you being an option he has in his palm for when he needs you.
I pretty much religiously read Baggage Reclaim, but this post really stuck out for me–I just got to his post today (Valentine’s Day was spent kicking up my heels with some close friends, watching terrible 90s action movies and eating homemade cookies, which was really like any other weekend).
I’ve been single since 2013, which was the year I was in THREE relationships. After the third, I realized that, yes, while the pain I experienced in those relationships was also on my partners, a lot of it DID have to do with my own motivations for getting into them.
Namely, as NML outlined, I was getting involved either to right the wrongs of my past, prove my parents wrong, and/or seek external validation. Whenever I wanted to be with someone, I remember I would say to myself: “I want X to love me” instead of “I want to love X”. And, the more I think about it, if I could go back as the me I am now, I wouldn’t WANT to love 99% of them men I wanted to love me.
I think, for me anyway, that’s when I realized my mindset had changed. Before I just wanted someone to love me (read: validate me), and now…I want TO love someone myself.
Thanks for the awesome post!
Ah, Valentine’s Day! My husband decided to go and see his father for the V-weekend. I said to my classic-NPD platonic-OM that I was free. He initially said GREAT! Then admitted that it made him uncomfortable and that it was a really bad idea for me to be seen with him on such an occasion.
He instead went to see his other fallback girl. He said she had earlier told him she had handmade a card for him. I said there was no way he would be getting one from me. He said that was hurtful (I thought good!).
As I posted earlier, EU P-OM and I reached a breakpoint and he is now able to be open and honest with me, so I know all about her. It gives me huge insight as I have a direct line to the way an NPD EUM thinks. He treats her dreadfully. I keep thinking that I should be happy because he is very good to me. But it doesn’t.
Anyway, his rationale is that ‘everyone needs somebody’. He is having a tough time and is lonely and isn’t good in his own company. He has made it clear to her that he doesn’t want a ‘relationship’, but she is happy to cook for him, give him sex when he feels like it and generally help him out in any way she can. She is, in his words, ‘always available’. Back to V-day. He turned up late to see her, and although he gave her a card, it was purposefully anodyne and didn’t mention love in any way.
The point, really, is this: as bad or even downright outrageous as his behaviour is, she allows it and is compliant. All this does, in his mind, is affirm that she’s okay with it.
As for me, my boundaries are pretty poor, but they are not non-existent. But the story of the other FBG illustrates that it’s about degrees. They will only treat you as badly as you allow.
Larissa. I’m not trying to be mean, but BR is a website where we come for help with our interpersonal snags or because we’ve come a long way out of low self-esteem, are learning to love ourselves and put ourselves first instead of fawning over people who do not treat us well. Instead, you are talking about the interactions of two other people that really don’t have anything to do with YOU. Please don’t waste your time on this nonsense. You say your boundaries are poor. It should be far more important to you to focus on the work you need to do on YOU instead what another rship has or does not have. Please let us know what and how you are working toward being the best person you can be so that you reach YOUR OWN personal happiness and fulfillment.
Thinkerbell, you are right. Sorry. The back story to all this is that I have been to hell and back with EUM. I unintentionally, due to poor boundaries and low self esteem, found myself deeply emotionally involved and one of his FBGs. I had a gut feeling I wasn’t the only one. This one in particular I see fairly often and he drip feeds me information, good and bad, about her. The worst thing about seeing him treat her badly is that I feel I am being shown myself. So I should have explained that in telling her story, I was really telling mine. He treated me as badly as I allowed him to.
He has been very good to me lately, open and honest and respectful. But seeing him continue to treat her increasingly badly makes me feel bad and makes me ask myself why oh why do I want to spend time with a man with those kinds of values? The answer is that he’s fun to be with. Rubbish answer, I tell myself, and still continue to see him, realising I’m addicted and although I want to give him up, I am far from willing.
As for making ME a better person and a happier one, I’m not doing that well. Finding this site was a good first step. I can now at least rationally recognise what’s going on. But on an emotional, subconscious level I’m so not there. My post was an example of my propensity to avoid, looking outside myself for answers, and your response is a trigger to make me not only look only to myself, but to look a whole lot harder.
Larissa. (Lovely name,btw.) I’m happy for you that you’ve found BR. Natalie is a huge help to all of us who follow her regularly. Some of us see a therapist also, and along with reading self-help books, particularly certain ones, we’ve been able to unload a lot of shite and feel much better emotionally and psychologically. Larissa, our self esteem affects many, many aspects of our lives. When you have feelings of low self worth, you behave in ways contrary to your well being and secure mental health, doing all kinds of crazy things which you know are not healthy but you can’t help yourself. I think you know this and want to help yourself to be a better YOU. You are fortunate to have found BR. Read dilligently. Look up Natalie’s list of posts as you will find articles that address your particular problems. Stay connected. You have a place to come to, not to talk about others, but about you. I understand that your initial post was communicated here because you felt it mirrors you. If this guy treats the other woman so poorly do you really feel that he offers you a healthy, progressive rship with a positive outcome. I think you know better but you have to dig deep and find the strength to go NC because he is a poor influence on you and your new goal of self-improvement. As you become stronger and wiser you will make better choices, not only with but everything else. Learn to love you first. Soar like and eagle toward self-realization/fulfillment. glad you
Typo – “not only with men but with but everything else”. You have my (our) support. Love, Tink.
Serene (Tink) and Louise – thanks for your replies and support. It’s frightening to realise that, looking back, the major, self-inflicted, crazy behaviour mistakes in my life come from low self esteem. I’ve been too ready to take a quick fix hit and chosen the wrong path at the expense of my well being. The drama with the EUM may be a something new, but it’s not unconnected, it’s just another symptom.
I’m a bit of an adrenalin junkie. I thought that taking risks was a way of living life to the full. Sometimes this might be true, but I’ve used it to justify decisions that haven’t taken the consequences into consideration carefully enough.
I’m working on becoming more mindful of the path and journey I choose to achieve my desires rather than focussing to heavily on the objective or destination.
Larissa,
It is good that you realise that you are not there yet- in terms of your emotional and subconscious programming.
All I can say is that life is so much better on the other side when these clowns are gone for good.
Every time you think he is fun to be with, also balance that with the sheer emotional hell he puts you through. Don’t let a fantasy about him have any space in your head, bust it with reality, the reality that he is weak and a slimey ….
He can’t control himself, where is the fun in that ?
Dear V
I have been meaning to thank you for so many days now…. Thank you so much for the information of the marriage counselling website. I have already started using it. Your support and guidance mean a great deal. Thank you for your comforting words.. A big hug to you from me.. Lots of love, Selfseeker75
@Elle0415
Dear Elle
Thank you for sharing your life story with me. I found tremendous comfort in reading what you had to say. I could identify myself with that situation completely. I agree I have made a mistake but am using this experience to realise my error and make amends in my life. Looking at the positives and counting my other innumerable blessings. Thank you for your compassion and support. They have given me tremendous strength. Lots of love, Selfseeker75
I’ve been living alone for about eight months now, and
I think I’m starting to calm down. I suffer from high
anxiety, which I’m now facing.
I have good days and bad days. I’ m having a good day.
My mind has some misconceptions about living alone. I need a chance to grow into myself.
I used to really want to find a romantic partner, but now, not so much. I just want to keep loving me for a while. I really do enjoy my company, but I still need more time to get to know me, and there are so many things I need to talk to myself about.
HI Natalie,
Just found your site today. I love your no BS approach to relationships. Very refreshing amidst all the fluffy stuff out there trying not to stand on anyone’s toes or hurt anyone’s feelings. Fact is, relationships are down and dirty and messy. And once we can live with that, that’s when we get to find the treasures and the magic happens.
I love the line, “It’s more than OK to want a relationship but when we’re honest about why we want it … {when} we stop needing a relationship as a form of salvation”. This really is where it goes right or wrong. We need to know ourselves, be clear on who we are and what we want, and really and truly understand our values. Compromising on what restaurant to go to or having that ugly picture on the wall is one thing, but compromising on core values is a disaster waiting to happen.
I’m looking forward to reading more of your stuff and you have a new subscriber 🙂
Thanks, again.
Keith
We had officially broke up 1.5 yrs ago, reconnected 8 months later but as friends , however it didnt made it thru and we ended again last dec. Must say it was very tormenting because i have been wanting love from this guy (hes 42) but i cant get it from him. It seemed that we are on different page. Few days ago, i initiated contact first because i sincerely wanted to know how hes doing and also his dad ( not many more days to live since we parted ) and the naggy feeling which i had was indeed accurate as he passed on last month.
I asked how does he feel towards me, his reply was ” friendship feelings” but there is no more love. i could tell that he doesnt seem as keen to want to converse with me thru whatsapp. the feelings he has towards me is more towards sexual and asked if we could just maintain a intimate rs, enjoying each other’s company and sex and keeping it exclusive.
Must say I am most hurt to hear this from him though inside me, i wished a part of him still sincerely heart me. I am utterly disappointed and crushed. Yet i dont know why i cant seem to let go of him totally or block him or delete his number..
I am just so in pain right now… its only after reading Nat’s post on this that it made me feel abit better. A part of me did wished he still have some love for me, but not just sexual feelings.
it’s just so painful to know that esp from him, someone whom ive known for 4 years coming 5…
Heartach13,
I know it hurts but it will pass. You already got your answer so please go no contact so you can heal. If you continue to pursue him even though you know he dosen’t have the same feelings for you, you will only prolong your pain.
Don’t try to ask him why he feels the way he does, it doesn’t matter. Besides nobody wants to be used just for sex! That’s just demeaning. If you don’t want a relationship with me then you damn sure ain’t having sex with me either! Take care of you, heal and find somebody who wants more than a roll in the hay. Good Luck
Stephanie,
Thanks for your comments, It’s his answer I find it hard to accept, even up to now. I dont know exactly why im feeling this way for him, and find it unacceptable he doesn’t love me but has other feelings. I have been living in self denial that probably he still loves me. This is too much for me to bear knowing he doesnt anymore. But how to go about a day without thinking about how he feel the way he does now, it’s a feeling i can’t seem to control very well…
HOLDING STRONG…so far. Its been just over a year of this nightmare I put myself through with a now MM. Met him through my mom who had been telling me about him, and telling him about me (they are apart of the same church). When she brought me along one day we finally met and it was an instant spark. Thing was, he was 2 weeks broken up of an on/off relationship. We got to know eachother for a month and it was great! I was cautious and afraid because I knew it was rebound territory but he kept assuring me that was OVER. Low and behold I find out they were talking again and before I could find out anything else I was OUT of THERE. I blocked him and and just disappeared because I was so afraid of being left. He tried to contact me but I wasn’t being receptive, but I did eventually find out they were on again. His contacts and reaching out NEVER stopped and it seemed as though they were still off and on but during their “off” moments he would track me down and I would end up meeting up with him and it was like we picked up from where we left off. But they were short lived because they would be on again and he would never be straight forward about this, always claiming they weren’t compatible which is why the breakups kept happening. After a last time of reconnecting again I got that SCARED feeling that they werent over so I blocked and disappeared again. I find out from my mom about a month later that they got enagaged in April…wedding was in August. I was hurt and blindsided, and I wasn’t dealing with that well, I just kind of stayed hidden. He sent me texts and emails before the wedding and I IGNORED. I remember the wedding day I went to a beach out of town because I couldn’t stand to be anywhere nearby. October rolls around (1 month of them married) and he starts up again, I eventually responded thinking I could handle it but he started to profess feelings and regrets and things started up. He tells me she was expecting a child in April (next month), I ignored my better judgment and we continued communicating all day everyday, meeting up at parks, him stopping by, etc…And EVERYDAY he’s telling me the same story, that they got married for the wrong reasons, it won’t last etc (BS), I tell him, in the same token that I can’t keep doing this, its killing me,that I know once his child is born that he will feel different…He tells me NO NO NO!! because he has 3 other children with two other women and he would never stay in a relationship just for a child if it wasn’t healthy, that he’s been here before and it didn’t work out, to just trust him and watch it play out. That they discuss separation constantly. I tell him to just STOP contacting me, that I don’t want to block him this time, for him to just respect my wish. He absolutely didn’t stop and didn’t even try. Flat out said he could not stop. I would feel good in the moments we were talking and the times we saw eachother but would be hit with the reality that, HOLD UP “This man is expecting a child very soon and NO MATTER what he is claiming I will be dropped when this happens, he can’t give me what I want now, how will this improve???!!, wake the eff up!”. And the thing was, he would claim all these loving, longing feelings but how he carried on didn’t reflect any of it. I feel like I have been witness and have been dragged along (my own doing) on this couple’s up and down relationship ride and I want off and OUT. I have been no contact for a little over a week now because I couldnt take it and I know the baby will be born soon and I don’t need to be on the sidelines of that, just like I was with theyre dating, wedding etc… ENOUGH is ENOUGH, why did I put myself through this??? So of course he tried reaching but because I blocked his texts and calls, he emails me asking that I please explain my actions (ignoring him) so that he can move foward. Part of me feels guilty for not explaining but I have been down this road with him so many times before. He knows what I want out of a relationship, even though Ive settled for less, Ive told him what I want and that I can stick around for this. If I break contact to “explain” that, I run the risk of getting into a back and forth with him or just feeling crappy again because I gave away control and gave him the closure he needed…what about me though? I’m sticking with no contact because unlike before I don’t care what he will think of me for leaving him hanging because I no longer want to see an US in the future. What I am trying to work on now is focusing on my own life and not what they are doing or how happy they’ll be as a family (her son from previous marriage, his 3 daughters from 2 relationships, and the new addition). I am 29 with a wonderful 3 year old daughter, a future ahead and I don’t need the stress or baggage. I feel much more free already and look forward to feeling even more free and having healthier views and for Goodness sake, being dettached from this couple and having my own story unfold. Gonna get through.
Realize that this is more venting than asking for advice but I I guess I need support on just not looking back and never ever getting myself into something so wrong for the sake of wanting something, anything close to a relationship, I’m disappointed in me…
No need to explain anything to him. If he cannot understand your need to want a man who isn’t married and carrying tons of baggage, than he is clueless, or extremely self centered, or a flat out liar (or all three, entirely possible). Do NOT feel bad for not giving him the curtesy of an explanation! He didn’t feel bad about marrying someone else when he said he had feelings for you. This man is a walking disaster who cannot handle his own life. Don’t expect him to have any concern for yours in a way that counts. He is looking out for only himself. He’s a train wreck.
IWillLookBackOnThis – good name. Because you will look back on this one day and realize it was simply a life lesson.
Lighten up on yourself. Seems to me that the hardest thing for us to do is love ourselves and forgive ourselves. We give second/third/fourth/fifth/sixth chances to ACs and EUMs – but we cannot muster up enough self-care to say – “Hey, SELF! I get a do over. I’ll move forward and not let that mistake define ME.”
Thank you Selkie for replying, I agree that he is a train wreck, so upset I was low enough to be on the sidelines of all this. It’s hard to bounce back from because I was always feeling all along why wasn’t I good enough? And why couldn’t he understand that it hurts to be constantly sidelined, but told otherwise. I was a fool. Then I beat myself up thinking about them and if they’ll have the happy ending…wedding, baby etc… I’m staying far away, even from social media for the time being (that’s how I saw wedding pics before that he convinced me they weren’t really happy…SMH). Don’t need to see any more pics concerning him them or family. Focus on my happiness and know that if he does look like he gets away winning, I still have my life to live.
This is not of case of you not be good enough because he is treating her bad too. This is how he works. I bet he isn’t happy wit her and he will do this with any woman he’s with. It’s hard to see this now because you’re in pain, but him getting married is a blessing for you to move on and leave him in the past. His wife is in for a lifetime of this crap but you on the other hand can walk away and be free of his dysfunction and disrespect. As Elgie says, be gentle on yourself. You made a couple mistakes but they can all be fixed and turned around. None of us has sailed through life without making mistakes, but learning from them makes more sense than beating yourself up. Hang in there.
Selkie and Elgie, your words just brought a ray of light into my day. I always tend to think the worst and its always with me having the worst outcome, ending up the losing party in any situation I’m in. You gave me a very different perspective and I’m so grateful for that. Even before I told my story on here, I was reading comments and gaining support from you ladies, you guys are the absolute best, thank you!!
Just wanted to share my own personal realization. No Contact feels very empowering the first few days, when you’re putting you first, they are trying to get through but you feel strong and don’t give in. Then the reality of them giving up because they can’t get through and you TRULY get to see how hard a person is willing to fight for you, especially when they just couldn’t let you go so many times before. And more than likely you’ll see (with these guys) that there really isn’t much of a fight in them, for you. Half hearted efforts and then nada. This may be another dose of pain to deal with in the process of getting over it but also an eye opener that for the future,if it’s real love a person will or should give it their all. So just a realization and little emotional setback but still doing what I gotta do.
Hey, IWillLookBackOnThis, what you are feeling is your need for validation talking. We talk about ACs needing ego strokes. Well, so do we.
It is ego stroking to be chased a bit. Just don’t confuse needing an ego stroke with missing the AC because he was the soul mate you left behind and will never have again. You’ll know it’s an ego stroke you seek when he finally contacts you (after a few weeks) and you’ll feel a little self-satisfied knowing that you are still crossing his mind, and your mood lifts. Because that is all you wanted to know. You don’t want him back, you just wanted to know you aren’t totally easily forgettable.
Don’t worry. ACs always come back. You’ll know you’ve passed this life lesson when his contacting you out of the blue does not thrill you. You will have moved past missing strokes from him. That takes time. That takes finding new interests that motivate you and involve your mind. When you are at that healed point, when he contacts you, you will see the “reset” language and see he isn’t trying to move forward, he just wants his status quo back. And you’ll feel annoyed that he is playing that same old game and you will just want him to disappear and go away.
Hi Elgie, you really know what you are talking about,where did you get such insight?! So not even 2 hours after I wrote that, I got text messages asking If he could ask me just 1 question and then he would leave me alone. It was easy for me not to respond. I kinda looked at it with disgust because what could he possibly need to ask me at this point that matters? What needs clearing up? His wife is due any day now, common sense would answer any question he may have. Pissed that I obviously gave the impression that second place is where I belong. He is not coming to me with anything new or to benefit me. Its all to help him feel right about it. But you are right about the ego stroke, because no one wants to feel as though they were so easy to get over or forget, but none of this is even flattering anymore because with these reach outs he is not coming to me with anything to offer. You ladies are the best for helping me through this. This is more therapeutic than talking with the people closest to me, so thank you!
My recent relationship ended over differences in values and beliefs (I’m Roman Catholic and he was Muslim). I will myself to let it go as it isn’t worth it since values and beliefs aren’t something that can be changed. I know that I’ll just exhaust myself, wishing I could’ve been the exception, him choosing me. In self reflection, I acknowledge that he does not solely hold the blame for the way things ended. In my taking a leap of faith with him, I was always aware of the consequences of attempting an inter religious relationship.
The hardest part for me to accept all these logical reason besides how he treated me kindly. .. Is the illogical ride I’ve been through with him. He’s not a pious Muslim. He told me he has finally decided to return to doing right by his religion. But his actions were not in sync with his words. He drinks and engages in sexual acts with me. I never judged his lifestyle because it didn’t harm me in any way. However, because I’m not Muslim too, he told me our union will be a sinful one in the eyes of God. BUT prior to this declaration, he told me that everyone should be allowed to love another regardless of religious differences and be with them. I don’t get it. He wanted to be with me but he couldn’t in the eyes of his religion BUT he kept telling me that he didn’t want to lose me. I never wanted to either, so we tried to discuss a compromise for us to build a family together but he kept telling me he wasn’t sure how it’ll work out. Made my blood boil. He couldn’t find it in himself to include me in his future once he embarked on doing right in his path to God then why spout words of love transcending boundaries AND why start a relationship with me when he knew of the differences that we had to face and resolve together.
At the end of it, you could say we mutually decided to end things before it got harder to. In my final question to him “in the first place why did you even consider to start a relationship with me despite our differences?”. he told me that if he had thought it through deeply before asking me to start a serious relationship with him, he would’ve backed off.
I’m so angry on some days/moments I want to curse him out. Some star crossed lovers bullshit that I want nothing of. I feel so misled. For giving my heart to him, trusting in his words that we’ll work things out.
I’m not gonna lie and say that after reading lots of your articles, I am thumping my chest, a 100 percent ready to let go. But your articles comfort me greatly. Helps me make sense of what I’m going through. Thank you Nat.