Welcome back! Have you got my ebooks - The No Contact Rule and Mr Unavailable & The Fallback Girl? Also become a fan of Baggage Reclaim on Facebook, follow me onTwitter, and join the forum.
Yesterday was the first part in this five part series focused on getting to the heart of three things that we base our choices in men around; compatibility, type, and common interests, which could actually be at the heart of derailing your relationships and contributing to your difficulty in finding a partner who you can actually forge a relationship with.
In essence, I have previously felt compatibility with Mr Unavailable’s and assclowns, my ‘type’ was lacking in substance, and whilst we had some common interests, we certainly didn’t share anything of importance that actually contributed to the success of the relationship and bound us together in a healthy way.
In this part, I want to talk about ’soulmates’ and how we have to focus on seeing the wood instead of the trees and being contextual – instead of looking at the inconsequential stuff about compatibility, type, and common interests in isolation, factor them in to the overall picture of reality and ask yourself how much you think the things that matter to you really ‘matter’ and how much they actually benefit you.
At the heart of yesterday’s post was this:
“I’m compatible with someone who loves, respects, trusts, and cares about me, that has values, shares my values, and isn’t trying to fight being a decent person in a decent relationship. It’s more of a turn-on to be around someone with integrity that’s emotionally connected and is truly getting to know me for me and there’s no illusion. I’m compatible with someone who I can lean on emotionally and them me, and I like not living in fear or catering to my fears. I don’t have to (or want to) pretend anymore which means I can get on with being me, enjoying my life, and being happy now.”
Reading some of the comments on part one, I realised that some women still think that finding a mate is like a fairy tale, Mills & Boon novel, romcom film – finding a soulmate – someone who acts, thinks, talks, and is everything that you want them to be and imagined all the time, giving the illusion of a cosmic connection.
What happens if your ’soulmate’ has an off day, week, month or a few years?
What happens if your ’soulmate’ is an illusion that doesn’t hold up to scrutiny?
What happens if your ’soulmate’ can only exist if you have no boundaries and do things on their terms?
Well actually, you don’t need to wonder because if you’ve been involved with a Mr Unavailable or assclown, the likelihood is that part of the reason why you’re still there is because when he briefly exhibited ‘wonderful’ qualities and characteristics, you convinced yourself that you’d found your soulmate because he created ‘feelings’, and then you committed yourself to a voyage trying to get him to be that way again even though he had shown that he was consistently a different person.
The reason why the pursuit of the soulmate concept will come back to bite you in the bum if you’re not careful, is that if you are in pursuit of a ‘feeling’ or have built up your concept of a soulmate based around ideas about compatibility, type, and ‘common’ interests that are not actually in sync with a healthy relationship, these will create conflicts, misery, plenty of illusions and dalliances with poor partners.
In my ebook Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, I explained extensively why pursuing a ‘feeling’ is setting you up for a self-fulfilling prophecy.
We say stuff like It just feels ‘right’ with him/Things need to be ‘right’ before I’m willing to believe that he’s truly ready/It just didn’t feel ‘right’ with him
Whilst you’re off chasing this ‘feeling’, your Mr Unavailable is chasing unattainable perfection which is how your behaviour ends up falling so in sync with theirs – both of you chasing people that don’t actually exist.
Many of us don’t have a picture of a healthy relationship to work off as a frame of reference, and even if we do, even more of us have negative beliefs about ourselves, love, and relationships, so we’re actually pursuing negative feelings.
In the ebook I ask:
It’s very important that you stop being a short term thinker and look beyond the trees to the wood beyond. This allows you to stop being focused on illusion and start seeing things contextually so that you look at the bigger picture.
Instead of being focused on the feeling right now or just in those moments, you need to acknowledge that you may feel great now, but you feel like crap the rest of the time, the relationship is floundering, and he has done X,Y, Z that clearly demonstrate that something is very wrong.
This is not about killing ‘passion’ or ‘excitement’ and settling for someone who makes watching paint drying seem like an exciting prospect, but come on!
Passion and excitement is not always packaged up in assclowns and Mr Unavailable’s. In fact, your idea of passion and excitement is actually propelled by fear and drama.
You keep pursuing the feeling and this is what makes you compatible with fickle, often childish men who don’t know their arse from their elbow because pursuing the feeling and this elusive vision of a man that makes you feel in a way that you’ve conjured up in your mind as being what a soulmate would do, has you placing your reliance and interests in insubstantial men who are emotionally disconnected.
They don’t have to back up their words with actions because if they make the right noises, dip in and out of your life, and cater to your fears whilst creating drama, it ticks the boxes of these ‘feelings’.
You are more words and illusions focused, tied in with a penchant for believing that certain non-important things (we’re coming to those in the subsequent posts) about compatibility, type, and common interests should keep you with these guys.
You’re not really looking at the man, whether he loves, trusts, respects, and cares about you and whether he has both feet in the relationship and whether you actually feel happy in the relationship.
No…you’re looking at what you think you feel, what you’d like to feel, and what you think you will feel, whether he has a good job/likes to cook/cycle/listen to Pavarotti/is tall/short/good at his job/liked by the old lady down the street/kind to animals and kids/good sense of humour/poetic/struggling artist or musician and all that jazz.
Only problem is that he doesn’t show and behave in a way that says he loves, trusts, cares about, and respects you, plus he may be tall with a big dick, great in the sack, a love of cooking, politics, and great intellect with a decent bank balance, and the supposed liking of his peers, but he also has the emotional capacity of a stone, can’t commit, won’t commit, has other women, tells lies, and knows how to be decent to everyone but you.
If the person is emotionally disconnected or behaves like an assclown, how can your ’souls’ be so connected?
How can you be so compatible with a relationship that is fundamentally incompatible with your happiness and your self-esteem?
Why is someone who so far has done a damn good job of contributing to your unhappiness, so great, that you keep pursuing the same ‘type’ of guy in a different package?
Why is sharing hobbies and interests more important than sharing values and a genuine interest in each other?
That is the bigger picture or the ‘wood’ instead of the trees.
If you are pursuing a soulmate or the ‘image’ of what you think is the man that’s going to make you happy and ‘complete you’, you may have inadvertently found yourself chasing someone that either doesn’t exist, or chasing men who your illusions about compatibility, type, and common interests have been projected onto.
Either way, it’s time to do a reality check. If it’s not broke, and you’re happy and this works for you in a good way (doubt you’d be reading this) then crack on with what you’re doing, but if what’s becoming patently clear is that what you’re doing and pursuing is not working for you, it’s time to step into reality and get compatible with healthier options, lose the dodgy ‘types’, and ensure that no matter what interests and hobbies you both share, that you both have both feet in the relationship with the common interest being sharing a healthy relationship, with each other’s best interests at heart.
But most importantly, stop being compatible with bullsh*t, illusions, and false promises.
Part Three focuses on compatibility.
Your thoughts? Are you starting to see the bigger picture? Have you been focused on a ‘feeling’, albeit an elusive one?
Get ahead on understanding waste of space men and relationships with my ebook, Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl. Find out more and download. If you need personal advice or analysis of your relationship/situation, check out my consultation service.
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Hi ladies (and the occasional gentleman),
Although this is my first time posting, I’ve been reading this site since late May (about 3 months after I had already decided to do “No Contact”) and I’ve found so much of what’s here to be incredibly helpful, supportive and just downright insightful. So, thank you for sharing your experiences and for serving as an unknowing support system…especially in those moments when I needed to know that I was not alone in having engaged in relationship insanity! I find that I’m in a much better place now emotionally and that both my self-confidence and relationship know-how have grown, but still, I like reading the site…it’s a worthy source for any man or woman in a relationship, so thanks NML; you put every other beauty and dating magazine to shame!
You see, I had never experienced anything like this before and just couldn’t understand what was going on. And, really, I still don’t understand, although I no longer care because I can say with 100% certainty that my life is so much better without him…He exhausted me emotionally and I didn’t like _it_ or the feeling that accompanied it, but, since I liked _him_ and we had oh so much in common, I was willing to see it through and finish what I had started since I was sure that he liked me, but wasn’t willing to admit it (it was a non-sexual LDR with me on the west coast of the US and him in eastern Europe; we had met last summer and stayed in touch after that–he initiated the continued contact) since it would be hard. In short, I was betting on potential, which was a big mistake as, when push came to shove and I suggested a visit after 6 months of steady communication (I’m talking emails, skype, chat, etc.), he told me that would be “impossible, impractical and just another im- word” (some words you just never forget…even if their capacity to hurt you fades with time). Needless to say, I was deeply hurt and basically cut things off then and there, although we did have one more conversation that sheds some light on what Leonine said in an earlier post about how “they know what they’re doing…they do it often enough.”
I agree with her completely, although I do think self-awareness can vary from person to person. But, still, if it’s an ingrained behavioral pattern, people do recognize it in themselves even if they don’t always actively acknowledge it or want to fix it. After I kind of lost it emotionally and told him (via email–this was his chosen mode of communication; though it seemed cold to me to do it in this manner, I was requesting nothing else after being told I couldn’t visit. He was never rejecting me again) that being a part of his life, given the circumstances, was impossible, we ended up having one final conversation, which was somewhat enlightening, yet somehow still extremely confusing and even surreal. Normal-whatever normal may be–people just don’t act this way.
He told me that he knew he was an a#%hole; this was “how it always was,” that he “leeched” off of everybody close to him and had little regard for other people’s feelings. He even went so far as to compare himself to Citizen Kane, saying he was an empty shameless flatterer who would do anything to have people feeling good about him (this was in response to my question as to why he would have expressed jealousy when he thought I was going out with somebody else if he wasn’t interested in me himself. I told him normal male friends don’t do these kinds of things as they cross a line. But the ultimate point was, this man-boy was not my friend; he even devalued my friendship and 6 months of communication, telling me that human interaction was important to everybody and that enjoying my conversation didn’t mean he wanted to start a romantic relationship). This was all in addition to a comment he had made a few months before (which I ignored, thinking that it didn’t apply to me; how we do love to think we’re “different”! Although, oddly enough, when I sensed how much deception had been going on the whole time, I asked him if I had been one of few or many…He told me “one of few, but not only. Although with you it’s unique and different…because I like talking to you more.” It was always about talking to me, rather than about liking me as a person, which isn’t good enough even if we’ve read the same books, studied the same thing, speak the same languages. Details for the delusional!! about how he alienates everybody close to him and the only thing he was good at was work.
The worst part was that I knew on some level that he was aware of his bad behavior and maybe even regretted it; he often spoke of how he was lonely and wanted to make connections with more people. But, he said that the outcome would always be that he would hurt both them and himself in the process. In that last conversation as he said these things (and, who knows? He may have been attempting to manipulate me), I asked if he had had an epiphany and would be less self-serving in the future. And the weirdest/saddest/most baffling thing was that even after all that, his response was “no, no real desire to be less of an asshole.” So, I do think these men know what they are doing; it’s just that they’re concerned only with their own limits and boundaries and couldn’t give two hoots about ours. I guess it’s how you can say and understand you’re an alcoholic, but not be willing to put down the bottle…and even occasionally get behind the wheel while under the influence.
Personally, even though I can’t help but pity him a little, I want him nowhere near me. That level of selfishness and recklessness doesn’t allow for positive and healthy interaction. More importantly, he’s not fit to shine my shoes and neither are any of these other emotionally unavailable men who have brought us collectively to this site.
@Butterfly — My ex-EUM snapped at me “out of the blue” on occasion over stupid meaningless things. The first time he did it I looked him straight in the eye and said: “Don’t be a dic&!” His jaw dropped and he got this grin on his face and said: “A whaaaattt???” So I repeated, “Don’t be a dic&!” I think it surprised him because he wasn’t used to hearing me swear and we rarely argued. For some reason getting his attention and saying this immediately whenever he snapped at me stopped him every time.
@Meant to be Happy — Regarding the selective amnesia, here’s an example but it may not be the best one — there were many. A few days after he moved he called me to chat, we expressed missing each other and talked about getting together after he got settled in. A few days later I called him. During the conversation I said: “I miss you. I’ll be happy when we see each other.” He responded with anger: “Well I can’t do anything about that. I’ve got my life here and things to look forward to and you’ve got your life there and I don’t know about seeing each other. If I come back for my bikes with (male friend) we’re just going to pick them up and go straight back.” I said, “Then why did you spend the entire week with me 24/7 before you left!?” He said, “I’m GRATEFUL for that week! I’m GRATEFUL for that week!! and if you’re going to react like this then I’m not going to see you when I come back for Easter (which was 3 weeks away).” I said goodbye, hung up and figured this was a breakup. (Somebody please tell me if I’m crazy for assuming this??!!). I called him that night and said: “If you were going to break up with me you could have done it respectfully and properly. I don’t think you’ve considered my feelings at all. I don’t think you care and now I’m beginning to wonder if you ever cared. I feel used and discarded.” I waited and waited and waited for a response. There was a 30 second dead silence (I kid you not) and then I said, “Are you there?” He said with a completely perplexed and anguished tone: “Yes, and I have absolutely no idea of where this is coming from!!” It was like the conversation that happened that morning never occured. Anyway, he weasled his way back into my life over Easter and I stupidly let him, not without protest though. Although I initially kept him at more than an arms length, he worked me for over four hours and eventually all those old wonderful “feelings” resurfaced. I should have known what an assclown he was at that point in time, kept my distance, cut him off in short order and never allowed him to re-enter my life!!
After months and months of trying to convince myself that my ex EUM had a shred of decency and trying to find a way to keep him in my life. I have to face the fact that he causes me nothing but pain. After reading the posts today – i realize how these men in all their variations delude themselves from seeing the havoc they wreak upon the lives of others. Which is at the crux of being EUM they choose/can’t (whatever) see their actions or the consequences – today i have officially stopped making excuses for him. It’s so ironic to hear him refer to his distant mother only looking out for herslef, and proceed to repeat the same behaviour.
Oh wow so many posts with so many great points.
My ex only started getting like this really towards the end, the being horrible when I was being loving. To me, this was the single most hurtful thing he could have done because he knew damned well about my past with my other ex (who is also a narcissist, I see now, and was manic depressive so I put the behaviour down to just his illness).
OK maybe I should post about that other ex, it’s pertinent here. Yeah he was beneath me, a fixer-upper, as the ex BEFORE that was aloof with me but ok with everyone else (“can treat everyone right except you” syndrome – in fairness everyone called him on this but to them too he’d just shrug … I left him, circumstantially, on Valentine’s Day, then he was the biggest victim until he got a new girlfriend then was trying to rub it in my face).
I am seeing a pattern as I type! However this ex in the UK sort of “attached” himself to me and over the years I can’t say he was never there for me – I think he was as “there” as it was possible for him to be. He was always looking to have other women involved and I went along with this in part as what he wanted them for was something kinky I didn’t want to really do and it didn’t involve actual sexual contact. When we split and I moved out of the country he has recently described this as “you were my world and you left me to die”.
This is taking on more meaning now, as I learn more about narcissism – I really do urge people who have had experiences with guys who MANIPULATE PEOPLE AROUND THEM AND WHO ARE ALL TAKE TAKE TAKE BE THAT WITH TIME MONEY OR INFLUENCE look up information on narcissistic personality disorder and then thank your lucky stars you are out of it – and maintain your NC.
@Serena – I wish I had said something like that to him, on one level, I suspect it would have re-engaged him. On the other hand … I am so glad I didn’t re-engage him! Your whole post just above sounds absolutely positively familiar – different MO but those distancing conversations, the tone … urgh!
@Wised-up: Your whole post spoke volumes to me (imagine that distance and him not saying about being friends, him talking about being together, wanting to wake up next to you every morning, being crazy about you, blowing hot hot hot for a long time with only the occasional ice cube and THEN being a dick? However this line spoke most: He told me “one of few, but not only. Although with you it’s unique and different…because I like talking to you more.â€
The reason this spoke most is that he was saying what he thought you wanted to hear whilst also applying his own criteria when looking for succour: in short, this strange comment is what gives Narcissistic Supply.
The reason our friends don’t understand is because they have never experienced it, and they tend to judge us negatively because they have never had someone do quite such a number on us. Most of us are mature women over 30 and when we were growing up the rules were different.
@Janet – lol, given circumstances and details I am wondering if you are the “someone I never told you about and who the feelings never really went away for” that made me boot him out of my attentions (I am still wondering now how the hell he ever got there?). Even if you are not then I am choosing to think that you are because your story made me smile and there WAS a Janet on his FB
He was so miserly … ok another snippet for this then, I went out to the States at my own cost. Whilst I was there – after being told “you better be prepared to be treated like a princess” (he knows full well I don’t like people spending money on me) and all this talk about the nice place he was taking me for dinner he cooked at home for me and wanted me to use the old very limp lettuce instead of the fresh stuff he had bought, and as I have said before the “dinner” ended up being getting some crap at OHare Airport. He is ashamed of that happening and said it was just “an error on his part”. He was ashamed of the whole visit actually and said he had been a terrible host (he had). So yes, Janet, the timing of this makes me smile esp as he had said that he was “just talking to her online at the moment I don’t know if anything will come of it” and “I have to admit my mind has been elsewhere”. Ha! He’s long long long off my Facebook (I took him off and re-added him three times total).
@Nanalinda good for you, breathing space is good for us women
Enjoy your time!!
@Penny – you won’t be sitting watching TV every night honey but equally that means you need to do something with your life. Got anything you’ve always wanted to do? Maybe you’d like to go to some nightschool classes or something? My niece (extremely happily married after a string of idiots) went to learn cake decorating and now is starting her own business, her husband is very proud of her.
@Leonine I agree that I they know what they are doing, they just don’t really understand the harm they cause. I love your posts
and finally (sorry to ramble) @ cece – I have no right at all to feel proud of you, but I do. I am so thrilled for you, to see what you have written and to feel the surge of your own personal power that it took to get you to that stage. I think I am there too – near enough – but I have to admit that I really really hope Janet has just blown my ex out because I would hate to think that he is out there doing the same thing again. The sad fact is that he will be – and we can’t do anything about that to people we know.
We CAN get people here to read this sight, Natalie’s amazing stuff and everyone else’s journeys and we do know, at least, that there’s a resource there. Natalie, woman, please get yourself some publicity!!
Butterfly, unless he lives in California it wouldn’t be. Wouldn’t that be a hoot if I outed this cheap bastard?
We met and dated in 1999. 10 years ago! I had that FB page for a couple of years and he wanted to be a friend. After reading his stupid wall posts I just got sick of looking at him and deleted his sorry ass.
The ex who is sending me emails and leaves missed calls dated me last year. After a month of his stupidity I dumped him as well. He tried calling me and I refused to call him back. He then started following me on Twitter and I blocked his ass.
The weasel who is more than likely the culprit who is leaving love cards on my car is a man I dated 2 years ago who had his mother, his ex-wife and all his exes up his butt as well.
The only thing that works for me is the following. I have one g/f who thinks I’m too strict and that I’ll probably never get what I want. Yet this is the same friend who’s in-laws treat her like crap for the last 15 years so she’s not one to talk. I’ve told her doing the other way (being overly accommodating, understand and forgiving got me walked on). Now it’s my way or the highway.
I don’t call men and I ONLY return calls if it involves a change of plans.
I never pay for dates or plan dates. That’s the man’s job and it separates the wheat from the chaff, the doers vs. the talkers.
If I’m out in public, a bar, singles event, etc….and some man starts talking to me? If he’s not asked me for my phone number within 20 minutes I move on and mingle with others. I’m not interested in having a long philosophical conversation with some dude, I want dates that eventually lead to marriage. I have no time to waste. Haven’t you ladies ever been to a club and danced or made out with a guy all night and he never calls you again or not at all.
Multi-date. Until a man puts a ring on my finger, I’m free to date others.
Absolutely NO SEX. At LEAST until engagement. Sex too soon creates all kinds of problems and allows you to overlook things that you should run from.
All I do on a date is be nice, smell nice and dress nice, that’s it! We women talk too much on a date, we need to really listen to get what they’re all about. Men are romantic and sweet if you’re the one. If you’re not the one and you don’t give it up, they’ll eventually leave to be with someone who has no standards or the woman they’re truly interested in waiting on.
I have a very short amount of patience for nonsense. I used to tolerate and swallow a lot of crap. I guess it just takes getting older and having some bad experiences to wake you up. Once you have that awareness, you never go back.
LOL Janet – damn – nope, several time zones away.
HOWEVER …
Please be careful not to swing the pendulum the other way. Imagine you were a woman reading a MAN writing all those things, there’s quite a few red flags of unavailability showing. Have you read NML’s book? Time is probably not running out for you and whilst I totally agree that there’s no way to waste time on losers I think you are going to alienate people and might well be pushing AWAY the very kind of man who might really love you. Ask for your number within 20 minutes? Whatever happened to a relationship growing and blooming naturally hon?
You’re on the dating cycle and you need to break that fast because it is FULL of EUMs and EUW and that’s what I see and sense in your post. I really don’t want to sound harsh or criticising, I hope it doesn’t seem that way, I just know that there’s been so much support and tough love on this site that I’d feel I’d not contributed if I didn’t give some feedback.
The middle ground is somewhere in between. Either that, or I will never meet anyone truly for me because that’s what I want – someone who will meet me half way, will do their share and bring something to the party in their own right.
Just spare a grain of empathy for those guys who might be a little bit shy!
I’m at the stage of sitting right back and not wanting to care, but I think I agree
oops!
I think I agree about sex. As my mother used to say “Who buys the cow when they’ve drunk the milk”. Charming, but maybe it goes to show that men and women haven’t actually changed much at all, society has just let our standards slip.
Lol, just when the chat is heating up and we are getting down to the nitty gritty of cows and milk and things…. I have to go on my holidays!
Off to the seaside with 10 year old daughter for two weeks, so I’ll “see” what’s happening when I get back.
Meanwhile, Happy EU/AC Free Days everyone.
love, Leonine.
@Leonine – have a wonderful holiday with your daughter!!!
@WisedUp – thank you for sharing your story. I’m sorry to hear you were involved with a self-identified a**hole!!! Perhaps you have a good point about some having more insight than others into their behaviour. The thing that strikes me about your EUM is that he thought it was OK to tell you he’s an a-hole. Isn’t that a weird thing to do, interpersonally? When I apply your ideas to my ex-EUM, I am starting to think that maybe*he* had more insight than I gave him credit for – whenever we spoke about feelings for each other – I felt he was almost “prompted†to say he loved me – he would always follow it with “but I don’t want to hurt you†(or “I don’t want to hurt anybodyâ€). Perhaps he knew that he ended up hurting most women who fell in love with him? Very interesting. You said “he’s not fit to shine my shoes and neither are any of these other emotionally unavailable men who have brought us collectively to this site.†– from what you’ve said about your EUM, I can see why you think that! At least yours liked talking to you, though. Mine had a different agenda…
@Serena – wow, your exEUM really does seem to ‘not know his arse from his elbowâ€, as NML would say! No wonder you are/were confused. Not sure if I would interpret his comment as a breakup or a threat, but seemed out of the blue either way! I think you are NC with him now – am I right? If so, I’m hoping you are relieved to be done with that confusing behaviour!
@Butterfly – I think you missed my question to you (above Wised-Up’s post) -‘ “this sounds almost like some sort of narcissist wound†– not sure what you’re referring to here – the forgetting of previous conversations by the EUM?’ I have read a bit about NPD, but don’t fully see my EUM in the criteria. Are you suggesting my ex-EUM was displaying behaviour typical of a narcissist who has been offended? Maybe I should read up on it a bit more…
And I agree with your feedback to Janet re: possibly some EUW behaviours there . Penny earlier asked “Wonder how they manage to avoid becoming involved with people like themselves?â€, and I guess the answer to that question is that they *do* end up with EU people – umm, that would be us, I suppose – but we probably portray our emotional unavailability in different ways, as women. Having very strict dating rules, as in Janet’s case, may be one way – I agree. Choosing married men as partners may be another, as someone pointed out to *me*. And even putting up with EU behaviour from men, as I understand it, can be EUW behaviour. If we were more emotionally available and healthy, they wouldn’t have a chance with us in the first place. And the sex very early in the relationship piece (cow and milk, lol), I’m thinking could be an EUW behaviour, too, which I have certainly engaged in during my life, unfortunately. Was it NML, or Robin Norwood (who wrote “Women who Love too Muchâ€) who suggested that sex can be a way to avoid real intimacy since you’re not really getting to know each other except physically? More getting to know each other’s genitals than anything!
So, my latest goal is to figure out in which ways I am EU myself. What barriers do I put up that interfere with true friendship and intimacy? What is it about my emotional life that would cause me to be EU, and what can I do to recover from that? What kind of people to I *hope* to be compatible with, and what might stand in the way of that? Wow, such big questions for a beautiful Saturday morning!
@ Butterfly: I agree with you about his odd comment being an attempt to placate me, but, of course, only in a way that would allow his own needs to be met (via Narcissistic Supply; and, even though I recognize the pitfalls in attempting to diagnose anybody with any kind of disorder, I do believe he’s a narcissist. The Citizen Kane thing aside, he told me he loved himself too much and that he was living in Russia in an attempt to make his life a little “special.” I should point out here that we’re both mid-20s–I’m 2 years older than him, which was probably something I should have paid more attention to to begin with– and that, on some level, this is what we’re now taught to do: go live abroad, experience the world and broaden our horizons, etc. But without friends and people to love, how can life be special? ).
And I’m sure that it’s worse when you are with a man (LDR or not) and he’s telling you everything that you want to hear and then turns into a complete and total douche. It’s horrible to feel deceived, to know that you were deceived. But I honestly believed at the time that, given the amount of time he was spending with me (virtual or not), the kinds of conversations we were having (he did take an interest in my life and was supportive; he would only devalue the relationship when I asked him about how he would define our relationship….which in and of itself is telling) and the nice things he would say (never did he say he wanted to wake up next to me, but I never would have suggested a visit had he not told me I would have a place to stay next time I visited Russia, to find a conference there to “spice up my life,” that his job was probably going to be bringing him to CA, etc.), that he was interested in something more. It was just a very weird situation filled with mixed signals. But this blog has taught me that even though I would never tell a guy that talking to him was the highlight of my day if I maybe never planned on seeing him again, other people will do this.
The good news is, I haven’t lost my faith in humanity and the possibility of having a healthy and positive relationship. Several of my friends are with people who really love them for them and whom they can rely on and trust. This is what I want and I think it’s possible. I just think I need to be more discerning in the future because, the truth is, everything I needed to know was there from the beginning (as NML often says).
@ Meant to be Happy: Telling somebody you’re an a%$hole, yeah, I would say that’s a pretty weird thing to do.
It certainly doesn’t inspire trust or friendship, although I did feel a little sorry for him when I heard it (I mean, maybe in being involved with these men, we’re experiencing a “self-fulfilling prophecy,” but I think they’re also engaged in the same thing and constantly self-sabotage themselves. When I apologized for hurting him with the email I sent, he said I didn’t hurt him, he had hurt himself.) At the time some of my friends said, “At least he’s honest.”
And, yeah, maybe he liked talking to me (I think this was the hardest thing to accept–that somebody could enjoy me and my personality and yet not want a relationship. When I asked about this, he said he was never really attracted to my “unreal calves” like he knew he should be….Besides the natural WTF response, needless to say, even though I know I’m an attractive girl–not that that even matters; I had found somebody I could really talk to and I thought that meant something–I started to wonder if there was something physically repulsive about me. I even went to far as to ask if he found me to be repulsive and he said, “no, I don’t find you to be physically repulsive.” Clearly, a real charmer and giving individual. Not that I need to have my own ego stroked, but still! Whether a lover or a friend, we have to give something of ourselves in our relationships), but I’m not an intellectual callgirl…or a therapist. When I told him it had never been a completely positive or healthy relationship for me, he thanked me for being nice to him the whole time, even though “he sucks, but only kind of.” Self-awareness or last ditch attempt to engage my pity? Doesn’t matter.
If somebody has feelings for me, or doubts about me or the possibility of a long distance relationship succeeding (he alluded to this), let’s discuss them openly and honestly. I’m not a mind reader, nor do I want to be. The only thing that gave me the strength to leave was that I knew I deserved better. Human communication should never be this difficult and I knew that, even if he eventually came around, I was going to feel uneasy. After all, who wants to feel like they’ve fought tooth and nail for every inch? It’s not worth it, especially when I know it was completely and utterly his loss. Love isn’t easy, but still…it shouldn’t make you feel like a doormat either.
@Wised_Up – yeah, you’re right, a real charmer, lol. But sounds like he has more insight than most EUM’s. And speaking of insight, it’s great that you are also educating yourself about healthy vs unhealthy relationships, and you are only in your late 20’s – good for you! Many of us here (including me) are already in our 40’s, and still trying to sort this stuff out!
“Whether a lover or a friend, we have to give something of ourselves in our relationships)” – so true! You deserve to be in a mutually satisfying relationship, not to be somebody’s therapist. Best of luck to you on your journey to being completely rid of the EUM, and opening up the door to someone healthier.
@Meant to Be Happy & @ Butterfly — I went to bed last night and BINGO!! the lightbulb went on for me with regard to the behavior described in my recent post!! He was trying to “manage the relationship down” from Smokin’ HOT (one week together 24/7, we became too close for HIS comfort) to Ice COLD and I took it to mean a breakup! That’s why he acted shocked!! He was just following his usual pattern. Now that I understand it, the confusion is gone and I can move beyond it. The many epiphanies I’m gaining into the relationship from visiting this site are bringing me such a sense of peace and calm.
@Meant to be Happy — Yes, I am NC and it’s been 5 weeks tomorrow. I’m surprised that he’s left me alone for this length of time. Perhaps it’s because he is very clear that I will not be a fallback girl of the friends or FWB variety. Or. . . maybe he thinks that he’ll just give me some time to cool down and then attempt to indoctrinate me into his harem. YUCK!!
Butterly, my way isn’t for everyone.
Yes 20 minutes. A man knows within a few seconds if he’s attracted to you. He also knows within 5 minutes if he wants to spend time with you again. Men will talk and talk and talk to a woman to flatter HIS ego. Then you’ve spent all this time with him whereas someone who is really into you couldn’t or wouldn’t approach you because the talker was around.
Unavailability? Not at all. I’m very friendly and approachable. People talk to me all the time. I’m very easy going. I act like a lady but I think like a man in dating.
Growing and blooming naturally within the dating context is one thing. I’m not going to teach a man how to date me. Nature put it in a man’s genes that if he wants to procreate and have a family he has to act and set the wheels in motion.
Actually I’m not a dating cycle at all. I haven’t had a date in a while. I broke with a knucklehead last year and had one date since. I’ve spent this time reexamining my patterns and why I did what I did. That is why I’ve come to this conclusion that my way works for me. This time I want a good man, not a “good for now†man.
As far as men being shy? There are men that are shy, sure, however, if a man is really really interested in you, he approaches you, if not, I’ll be free to meet someone who is willing to stick his neck out and ask me out.
I don’t mean to be critical Janet, but your response is pretty defensive. I really really REALLY REALLY recommend NML’s book hon. Truly, and said with love for a fellow woman.
There’s so many things in this thread!!! Telling people you are an arsehole and getting off on it … yep. Classic behaviour from my ex who did exactly the same (I just never thought it would apply to me). Watch how the guy treats your waiter/waitress if you want a real clue – this rich guy I was on about before was so dismissive with the staff here when we went out (despite him not speaking the language … he truly embarassed me with the equivalent of clicking his fingers and calling a waiter “garcon” in France) – I don’t much care to talk to him again even really.
@ Meant to be Happy: Thank you for your kind words and support! And I wish you the best of luck as well; 20, 30 40, or even, let’s say, 85, it’s never too late for positive change (I’ll always be an optimist, at least when it comes to things like this).
Even though I initiated NC before finding this site, I didn’t truly experience my breakthrough until after I started reading NML’s posts and everybody’s comments. I have really been taking the time this summer to think about myself, what I want, working and getting things in order for the upcoming semester (I’m in graduate school and so my life revolves around the academic calendar) visiting friends and family and just enjoying life. And it’s funny (in a good way) because I feel I can really see a difference in myself…There’s a calm to my life that I’m really enjoying. I need stability in order to function well and it’s so true that if our gut/sixth sense is telling us that something is off (feeling nervous, anxious, overly excited/impatient, uncomfortable), then it’s best to just walk away. No other person I’ve dated or none of my other friends (at least the friendships that have been real and have lasted) have ever made me feel this way. And now I don’t think anybody will again (I’ve made several changes since cutting contact with him, also refusing to engage with other people–female “friends”–who seemingly lack empathy, are comfortable disrespecting me and other people on a regular basis and who just don’t enrich my life. Yep, I’m establishing boundaries…and the great thing is that I’ve realized I can still be nice to people while doing it).
I think I really lost perspective and wasn’t taking care of myself when I allowed this person–EUM or simply an immature 23 year old? I wonder if there’s a difference?–to enter my life…I was busy with work (overworked really), not sleeping well (stress related), ill several times and just plain exhausted. I wasn’t loving myself (even he commented on this occasionally, telling me I needed to sleep more, etc.) and he just fit into this overall pattern of negativity. Next time around, I not only know what I won’t tolerate and the signs of such behavior, but, more importantly, I have a solid idea of what I want. If he’s read “War and Peace,” great! But if he hasn’t and he’s a genuinely nice guy, that won’t be the end of the world… I just might buy him a copy for Christmas.
Butterfly – we’ll agree to disagree. I don’t feel my post was defensive. Like I said my way isn’t for everyone. This site is for all women. We all have our own way. You date your way and I’ll date my way.
@ Janet well that’s ok with me sweetheart. I agree that everyone has their own way but let me ask you this, and it is absolutely rhetorical. If this site doesn’t resonate to you, and the advice you are given is not what you want to hear, why are you here? I don’t read forums about fly fishing or stamp collecting and then post on them saying “I don’t agree with you”. Take that as you will, because you are not open to other people’s points of view and if I was a guy I’d run a mile from the EUW behaviour. Sorry, I know you don’t like this being said either by me or by your friend but it’s your life and your choice and I wish you well. In fact I nick the line from Wised Up:
“And I wish you the best of luck as well; 20, 30 40, or even, let’s say, 85, it’s never too late for positive change (I’ll always be an optimist, at least when it comes to things like this).”
@Serena – “Now that I understand it, the confusion is gone and I can move beyond it. ” – that’s great! and 5 weeks of NC under your belt is fantastic too. Please *do not* sign up for his harem!!!
@Wised_Up – “Next time around, I not only know what I won’t tolerate and the signs of such behavior, but, more importantly, I have a solid idea of what I want.” – fantastic!!! And best of luck to you in grad school – I remember that as a very busy time, but also very rewarding
Butterfly – this site DOES resonate with me. Just because I don’t agree with your assessment of me doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate this site. I simply don’t agree with what YOU had to say about my post, not the entire site in general.
I’m sure you mean well – but your POV isn’t mine, that’s all.
You continue to mention I have EUW behavior. You don’t even know me so you can’t even begin to give that type of armchair analysis of who I am as a person.
I’m just going by what you say Janet – for example, when you said that we had to agree to disagree this was a statement expecting compliance or argument. I’m not going to post again, because my intention is not to argue or be personal – and at the end of the day, we all have our own paths to walk. I continue to wish you well.
@everybody. MY EX-EUM SHOWED UP ON MY DOORSTEP TONIGHT!! I CAN’T believe it. It’s been 5 weeks no contact! It was another f’d up circular conversation in some ways but I took control and got my points across. I told him how he hurt me, how he broke my heart, how blowing hot and cold was/is a mind fu&^ and gave precise examples of this beahvior. I told him how I opened my heart to him and he trampled it. I told him how he worked to sabatage this relationship when it was at its peak. He expressed that he doesn’t know if he made a mistake, doesn’t know if letting me go is the right thing to do yada yada yada. We talked alot and I remained strong and didn’t cave. I told him that it is abnormal to leave a relationship at the peak when everything is good, that normal people leave when things go sour due to betrayal or irreconcilable differences. I told him that people that bail when things are good generally have issues taking it to the next level due to deep rooted issues centered on fear that if they give their heart, that they will be hurt in some way. I told him that these issues can come from abandonment or hurt from past relationships. I told him that I trusted him, and that I’m trustworthy, yet he didn’t trust me and he’s not trustworthy, and how ass backwards that is. He admitted he didn’t trust me but had no logical reason why. I told him that calling our relationship abnormal tells me he’s never had a normal relationship. Then he said, maybe the problem is all with him. I said the problem is definately all with him, my heart was open, it was him who couldn’t open his heart due to fear and that’s what was causing his “gut reaction,” not me and not the relationship. I told him his “gut reaction” and anxiety had to do with fear to take it to the next level, not me or our relationship. He said he has some people he is talking to about this. GOOD, I hope they’re giving him good advice! Anyway, I asked him what he wanted out of the relationship. He said, then, now, or later and then couldn’t answer when pressed. He said, “You’re one of a kind.” I said, “Yes I am and you will not find someone like me ever again. I asked him if his intent on stopping to see me was to get his ego stroked. He was offended by this. I told him that I had made it clear that I won’t be his friend, that I would not accept a demotion from girlfriend to friend or FB or anything else. I told him that the only way that I will engage with him is if he wants to truly commit to making this relationship work as couple. When he left he went to hug me. I asked him if this was a friendly hug because if it was I didn’t want to hug him. He then went to hug me again, I said the only way I will hug you is if we’re a couple and I turned and left. There was LOTS more than this but it certainly rattled my cage! I’m pretty calm right now and made my boundaries clear. I would be willing to give it another go but only with some SERIOUS therapeutic intervention that he so sorely needs. I think at this point he’s actually questioning himself but who knows! I just don’t want to let myself get sucked into false hope for this relationship and start a cycle of obsessing about him again. So, I won’t!! I’ll continue to move on. The balls in his court and he’s completely clear as to what he needs to do to re-enter my life namely, work to resolve his EUM and commitment phobic issues. Rright now I feel good about things. I hope I feel the same way in the morning! Comments PLEASE!!
Serena,
It’s so hard to know what’s ever truly running through the minds of these men, but one thing that’s clear from your post is that his appearance on your doorstep really jarred you. And I think that’s only natural; after all, you’re in the grieving/processing stage and you’re still working through what happened….
More importantly, this is the fantasy that every (or at least most) woman has when a man either ends the relationship himself or brings about the end of a relationship with bad behavior, i.e. that he’ll reappear, promising change and telling us how special we are! Not that I doubt that you’re wonderful, but the guy I was involved with also once told me that he realized I was one of a kind…My ultimate point here: these are empty words. Sure, people can make mistakes and not appreciate what they have until it’s gone (this is a cliched statement for a reason, after all), but my question is this: If he was really recognized your worth, why didn’t he come back promising a committed relationship? Why was he still hedging? I realize that you didn’t post everything that you both said to each other, but if the conversation was (as you said) still circular and baffling on some level, then he doesn’t seem any more ready than he was 5 weeks ago.
Granted, he says he’s talking to people about this, but who precisely (friends? professionals?)? And if their words were really getting through to him, why doesn’t he trust you (I understand that Moscow wasn’t built in a day, but still….his level of emotional insight and self-knowledge still seems pretty superficial)?
I know you only from your posts, but I can safely say that I think you deserve better than this.
If he was really interested in _you_, he would respected your wishes for “no contact” and have come back only after he had worked through his issues or had something concrete to offer you. Given the price of gas these days, it’s lovely that he decided to stop by, but talk’s cheap. In my opinion, he’s all potential, little substance.
@Wised_Up — I haven’t bought into the fantasy becasue nothing was promised. It did feel good though to have control of the conversation, say what I had to say and re-establishing direct and greater boundaries. But in the end, there were no promises and he still the same ole ASS-EUM and that is the way I will think of him until such time that he comes to me with something much more substantive in the way of change. Long term therapy comes to mind!! It WAS an ego boost for me but I have to be careful not to let it rekindle hope and interfere with my healing process. In answer to your question, he’s not promising a committed relationship and still hedging becasue he’s still a commitment phobic EUM. I do think he’s at least begun to look at his behavior more honestly now, likely having to do with his age and desire tor setlle down. HOWEVER, I’m not betting my life or holding my life up based on this because the changes could come too late for me, if at all. All I know is somebodies got him thinking, and it’s not me. He says he has male friends he talks to. I also didn’t suck into his charm and flirtation. He makes these little faces with his eyes and mouth. He was doing it and I said, “Oh, is that what you do to attract Mary, how ’bout Sue, or Allison, . . . Ashley or Alysa??” He said I do this when I’m confused.” I said, “No you don’t, when you’re confused you do this (I made his confused face). (The names are all made up. I was just busting his balls regarding knowing he was attempting to charm me with his flirtations).
Serena, that was wonderful, truly. I really admire you for saying what is at the heart of the matter, and it made me think to: normal people DON’T leave a relationship when it is at it’s peak. This must have taken so much strength
I once had someone turn up on my doorstep JUST as I had forgotten about him. I obviously had sense in the past though, my response was very cool and calm and collected then and I told him he was bang out of order and to go away (he couldn’t tell the truth to save his life).
This makes me ask how I, who was always so together, ended up with two EUMs/NPD people in a row right after that? Hmmmm.
Anyway Serena, stay strong. Stay very strong. Maybe this gets you your man but I’d say be very very careful because he clearly knows how to push buttons. You are seeing him as he is … but they can morph too, you know, then just revert to type (been there done that with the one I was with for 10 years).
Wishing you love and peace
@Butterfly — I’m not so sure this gets me my man. He’s got EUM baggage and although he may be glimpsing at it, he may never change. The fact is that ther’s got to be something concrete (like 10 sessions of therapy) and an ackowledgement that he knows he’s carrying this distinct baggage before I will re-engage. Right now all I know is that he accepted responsibility that the problem is his. He’s talking to some male friends about it. He says he made a mistake. Says I’m one of a kind. Says he doesn’t know if he should have come because it stirred the pot. He doesn’t know if he should let me go. (There’s the ole ambivalence!!) There’s nothing truly substantive in any of it. So, really he’s still in the same EUM boat as far as I can see. I may have given him a glimpse in the mirror of his reflection, but all changes rest squarely with him. I don’t know if he’s got it in him. But what I do know is that he can’t slip back in with me unless its under my “new rules!!” and mmy expectations of what I WANT, NEED, AND EXPECT from a relationship. It’s a heck of alot of work for him to do and I don’t know if he can “man-up!” I just so HOPE I don’t start getting back to a state of obsessing about fantasy land!!
@Serena – just wanted to let you know that some of us have responded to your “EUM on your doorstep” post over on “Compatibility part 3″
Hugs…
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