There’s something here that you’re both reflecting to back to each other—both of you are still hurting/affected by your previous partners and have trust issues. This doesn’t mean that either of you are in love with and want to get back together with your exes but whichever way you slice it, neither of you are over your exes where you have the confidence to lean into your relationship. You’re both still angry with your exes and to some degree angry with yourselves—neither of you are in the place where you can choose better boundaries and presentness as a way of moving on from the previous involvements.
This tells you that you’re each coming from similar levels of emotional availability hence why things have been workable so far.
Now, a few months in, he has broached “the talk” because he needs to manage your expectations.
This turn of events does not have to spell doom for your relationship but it is a wake-up call to 1) get grounded and 2) address the root cause of your respective issues.
Each of you not only have a duty of care to yourselves but also to each other—if you are both going to pursue this relationship in spite of your respective past hurts that you’re both grappling with, you each need to be extra vigilant about taking responsibility for ensuring that you differentiate between the past and the present and that you don’t put it on each other to clean up the mess left by your exes.
This means that he can’t expect you to be extra easy to compensate for him having been in a difficult relationship and that you can’t rely on him to reassure you against doubts that are springing from insecurities related to your ex.
You also need to figure out what you want because yes, he is “lovely to [you]” but if you don’t want to be in something ambiguous that he’s reticent about putting a ‘label’ on because he on some level believes that all relationships go belly up the moment that each party commits to something, it’s only going to be a matter of time before things become “difficult”. Speaking of which, as his reasons for not wanting to label things are based on his ex, it’s also important that you know what “difficult” refers to—it’s a sign of availability for a relationship whether a person understands why their relationship broke down (so that it doesn’t keep showing up in your relationship if it’s a recurring issue).
All relationships change—sure, there are some that regress, go in fits and starts, or come to a halt, but there are plenty of relationships that grow. Things will not happen “naturally” if one party has gone out of their way to put the brakes on things.
He is offering you a relationship without purpose or direction and after settling for your ex, I would tread very carefully about what you settle for in this relationship. This doesn’t mean that this guy is similar to your ex–only you know whether you’ve chosen differently–but unless you are also not ready to be in a relationship, don’t settle for not being in one.
If this relationship doesn’t work out, it won’t be because it was labelled or you weren’t pleasing or good enough but because the relationship wasn’t right for the both of you. His relationship didn’t break down because a label was put on it so he needs to get to a more honest place so that he can heal and move forward. If the relationship does continue, he’s got to be OK with normality and navigating life’s bumps together rather than wanting to take a parachute and jump when he thinks that it’s ‘changing’.
You need to address your own pain over your past relationship. Being treated badly and cheated on for a few weeks or months never mind 6 years, significantly affects a person. Instead of being insecure because on some level you still blame yourself for his treatment, it would be better to invest your time and energies into understanding what got you into that relationship and what kept you in it. When you can recognise the baggage behind that decision, you can make peace with you knowing that you won’t be using the same thinking and habits going forward. There is nothing wrong with wanting a relationship but needing one at any cost including being willing to marginalise your needs, is a fast track to pain. If you “chill” with this guy, it has to be on the merit of your relationship with him and from an autonomous choice, not from a place of insecurity and on some level feeling coerced into it.
Be honest with yourself: Are you devoting a lot of your time and energies into pleasing him? Do you feel anxious when you’re not people pleasing? This is a sign of codependency. Spend time with a therapist (or your chosen mode of support) to figure out where you end and he (or others) begin.
I would also get clear on what “lovely” means because—and I’m not saying that he’s not as lovely as you say he is—things get put out of context when you’ve been involved with someone like your ex. It’s like eating a cracker in the desert after being starved for 6 months. Write it all down so that you have a true and honest picture of what you feel invested in.
Take things slow, keep a Feelings Diary so that you can decipher what you’re feeling and tune in to your inner voice instead of your inner critic and other ego noise that might try to convince you out of your feelings and needs. Keep it real with him (don’t pussyfoot around him), and do keep up an open dialogue. This might be a situation that you can both be OK with for a couple of months or so while you each get yourselves sorted out but if he’s still trying to sell you an unlabelled relationship in the medium to long term, it’s time to walk away, fast. He’s within his rights not to want to commit to anything but you’re also within your rights to decide that that’s not something you want to be a part of. You deserve love, care, trust, respect, and possibilities.
Have you been in a ‘go with the flow’ relationship? What did you do? How worried would you be if you were in this situation?
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Ah, the mutual rebound relationship…been there/done that while in divorce process. Both of us had been cheated on. Yes, the trust issues definitely seep in. I was living in the shadow of his ex-wife, so I tried to overcompensate. Looking back, I had no idea who I was in that relationship, and knew I was not ready to be in one again but went against my gut. That’s when I started reading this blog and finally grew a big pair. Thank you for your dedication, Natalie.
Thank you for putting words to my situation. Thank you for helping me to ” grow a pair” … a titanium pair.
Thank you very much.
Thank you for putting words to my situation. Thank you for helping me to ” grow a pair” … a titanium pair hopefully.
Thank you all for your wisdom and generosity.
This makes me nervous. I too come from troubled relationships in the past. Prior to discovering Nat and BR and more importantly myself, I am one year and 4 months no contact with ex assclown as well as more grounded and in touch with myself than I ever have been. I took a year off from relationships and worked on myself before I even considered another relationship – and that helps so much. Prior to that I would mess around with the Mr Unavailables that would never commit or put a title to whatever we were doing (which really never was much – crumb city, ambiguous, no form of commitment), but am blessed for my terrible Mr U experiences because now my eyes are wide open to my relationships and how I let myself be treated. I had no boundaries and my people pleasing was through the roof. I cared about everyone else except for myself and it was not a good place to be. It led to a lot of settling for crumb behaviors and letting men stay around who really had no interest in ever pursuing a real relationship with me. If I were Lauren, I would get very clear with myself on what I was looking for and what I want. Because I strongly doubt ambiguous relationship with lots of past drama is something she is seeking.
Today, I would never give my time to a man who can’t commit to just me or name up to even wanting a relationship – especially after spending 4/5 months of dating. What he is saying seems like a cop out to me. He is resisting four months in and that has never been a good sign in my experience.
A man who wants you and who is good to you, will own up to your relationship and want to be an active part of the relationship and your life. There really is no “I don’t like titles, blah, excuse, excuse.” He’s either waiting for something better or still too wrapped up with his past drama to even know if he wants a relationship. I’m curious if he’s ever told Lauren he wants a relationship. I would do like Nat says, to really check in with yourself. Is the “Lovely” really that “lovely” if he doesn’t want to commit to you and has a lot of stuff in regards to his ex? I could not agree more with this, “He is offering you a relationship without purpose or direction and after settling for your ex, I would tread very carefully about what you settle for in this relationship.” I don’t know any woman in her right mind that would want this or settle for this. You deserve someone that has dealt with the baggage from the past and knows that they want you and only you (especially once you have done this yourself too) – to have a mutual relationship with love care trust and respect. It’s hard to build that when someone doesn’t even want to acknowledge that you and them are in a relationship together. It does take a lot of personal checking in and figuring things out. There are times when I have to stop myself and remind me that people are not my ex. I get stuck in the loop of remembering how I used to be and forgetting how much I have grown. This is where checking in with yourself and assessing the situation comes in handy. We’re all growing and changing and always need to be checking in with ourselves first. You can really gain a lot of perspective and see things clearly when you take an honest look about how things are happening around you. If I were Lauren I would ask myself, “is this really what I want my relationship to be? Is this man really that great if he doesn’t even know if he wants to be in a relationship with me?” If they are having the talk, I am guessing Lauren wants more.
If she does want a relationship I’d move on from this man and find one who wants equally what she does. First I would figure out the hurts and pains from the past so she can move on with a cleaner slate with someone equally clear minded and not so much baggage. Everything gets a lot clearer when you’ve dealt with the past and really figured out why ambiguous and barely there relationships have satisfied you for so long. We all deserve better than that.
I wish Lauren the best of luck!
This part really resonated with me and the apology about the cracker had be laughing… How true!!!
I would also get clear on what “lovely” means because—and I’m not saying that he’s not as lovely as you say he is—things get put out of context when you’ve been involved with someone like your ex. It’s like eating a cracker in the desert after being starved for 6 months. Write it all down so that you have a true and honest picture of what you feel invested in.
Having been in a remarkably similar situation a couple of times myself, my advice to Lauren would be: RUN. Let’s just say I learnt the hard way. You deserve so much more.
Much love and respect to you.
I agree with Nat and everyone who has commented so far. I wish I knew about this site 3 years ago, but in a way, I am glad I did not. I had to learn a hard way until I got it.
4-5 months into, the ex was not sure about the relationship status, and whether he wants a long-term relationship with me. He said he was committed but was not sure about long-term! Red flag right there, I know. Only I did not know back then. Then, 6-7 months into it, flip-flop. Sure, not sure, sure not sure. I became a crazy obsessive, nagging, insecure woman, and he started pulling away and maybe cheating. We both were unavailable. I was dealing with abandonment and rejection issues replaying my childhood scenarios. He was probably dealing with his life-term plan not to commit, for whatever reason, or he was running from what or whom. I will never know and I don’t care.
The bottom line: if after 4-6 months, a person is still not sure about the status and does not want to put a label because “relationships die, people change feelings, people change, feelings don’t last, and people break up” (the ex’s words), RUN. Do not invest anymore time. When a person is into you and available for a relationship, there will be no pulling teeth like relationship status, no questions, no checking the status/temperature. You will know. You will feel secure and calm. I know that feeling because I experienced that before with my ex-husband and couple other men. You just know.
Great article and wonderful advice from everyone!
Hi Sofia,
The ‘you will know’ comment is very true despite past/current baggage as the person will know who it is they would like to commit to, the effort making will not be hard at all. Double whopper when the feeling is mutual i.e. the other will know too. Anything before that is a lot of dilly-dallying.
Great post and excellent comments. I have been working on myself the last couple of years after a relationship ended. It was ok that it did, and I learned alot. I have spent a good amount of time on myself, understanding my childhood issues that have affected my life and the patterns of behavior I have had and how they have shown up in my life. It has been hard emotional work but – I had really liked that last guy and when it ended, I wanted to learn from it and go on and (hopefully) be able to have another and better relationship as a result.
I did meet a nice guy earlier this year and while it was light years better than the last one, there are issues of non-communication and ‘come close/go away.’ I would like to say he is the one with these issues, but if I am attracted to him then I have these issues as well. I have been the one to ask him out and pursue him and he seems to prefer that, but then he will withdraw or pull back. So, more stuff for me to look at in myself. He’s a nice guy, there’s no harm, no foul. It’s all a learning experience. BR helps me to stay focussed on what I am doing and taking care of myself. I don’t chase him, don’t do anything but just let him go and accept him just as he is. I don’t think it will go anywhere with him but I have still learned alot.
As usual, Natalie has it “the nail on the head”. I have commented before about a two year relationship with a newly divorced man. He came to the relationship with trust issues, although I am a faithful and trustworthy partner. I had been widowed for a few years and now realize, that I was in need of attention, love and affection from a man. This guy was very attentive…at first. But then he started to talk the unavailable talk about not being ready for a relationship, needing space, wanting to be alone, blah, blah, blah. (I agree with one of the comments that if a man really wants to be with a woman, he will be there. No excuses). I strived to be patient, to understand his “needs”, but eventually realized that the relationship was not satisfying to me. I wanted a mutually committed, progressive relationship, with love, trust, respect and direction. After two years of trying to be understanding, I told him as much, and eventually, he moved on to someone else. (Ironically, he married her within 18 months, but she has a much different educational and economic profile than I do and has different and more dependent and practical ($$$) needs that he can fulfill more readily than he could my emotional needs.) I should thank him because that relationship really did serve to help me clarify my relationship needs at this point in time. I know now how to spot “red flags” and to set boundaries early on so that I am treated the way I care to be treated, or walk away if those needs are not being met within a reasonable time. The pain has subsided and I relish my clarity. We were not the right people for each other.
Beverly, I just read your post. My story is exactly as yours, and I felt an immediate kinship when I read it! I ended the relationship after 2.5 years and months of him creating chaos and drama in an attempt to shake me loose. Towards the end, I repeatedly ask him to ‘man up’ and end the relationship, as he would often try to downgrade our relationship status to ‘good friends.’ I finally did the deed, after first spending yet another weekend in emotional agony. It was a huge relief, and I did thank him for what he had done for me in the beginning of our relationship. Like your ex, he was a guy who was not able to provide emotional security over the long haul. We too were not right for each other. Thank you for posting, Beverly.
Yep, the total rebound, “Are we or aren’t we?” relationship. It was nice but I took it too seriously. Six months in I broke it off because I sensed I wasn’t ready to give him the intimacy he claimed that he wanted. He said he’d meet me where I was so we got back together. Four months later he broke up with me. Quote: “I’ve been talking about our relationship with my friends and they think you can’t give me the intimacy that I want.” At the time it stung like hell. Looking back though I have to belly laugh. I had been straight with him, even broke up with him. But then, if he wanted a serious talk, he didn’t come to me, he went to his mates… which is a terrible way to cultivate intimacy!
And this guy? Graduate student in psychology.
Yes ! Since my divorce (20 year marriage) ALL my relationships have been “let’s just see what happens organically”. I had to figure out what I wanted and why in every one of them. I don’t roll to unilaterally made decisions . However on each relationship it became clear that the person I was seeing really didn’t want to have to think about actively stepping up but preferred to see how the cookie crumbled. At first I struggled with that because I dearly missed being in a real relationship again and I wanted that. I had to weigh the pros and cons of an unlabeled relationship. In the end I decided I wanted to practice my skills (I had developed some bad habits) but realize there would be no leveling up in terms of a relationship with legs. I came to view my unlabeled relationships as ways to practice who I wanted to be in a committed relationship. Like not taking on someone else’s emotions, learning how to accept how the other person might see things differently and allow that person to do that. That said I also had to learn to be very clear with myself and the other person about what our relationship entailed. Like NO sex EVER under ANY circumstances without a condom unless we were exclusive (and to kick someone to the curb if they consistently turned up the heat without coming prepared – like its my job to have condums on hand for them!) Yeah, I know, we should always use condums but we all also know how “shoulds” go. That’s what made me realize I had to have certain rules that could not be broken. That also meant no sentimental, special birthday presents , no Christmases or Thanksgivings with each other, no always choosing to spend time with that person over friends I valued. Funnily enough my label free relationships started saying things like “I don’t feel very important to you” That allowed me to practice kindness, objectivity, mutual problem solving , and staying honest with myself. Ask them someone what they wanted and how that worked within a “go with the flow” context. And ask myself as well if I was doing that just to get them to step up to the plate or was I coming from a place of living my life according to my own principals? It allowed me to deal with the feelings I had when I “lost” someone and helped me change the way I’d retrace over and over the things where I thought if I had only done this or that then that person would have stuck around to have the kind of healthy relationship I continue to yearn for.
That person and I have not crossed paths yet. Maybe we never will. But if we do, then the way I see it, I’ll have the basic skills down pat to give me the ability to be with someone who is also about a relationship journey focused on and supports building, growing and evolving together and apart.
Is it easy being in “go with the flow” relationships. Hell no. Do I get down because it’s been nearly 8 long years and I still havent crossed paths with some one who shares a similar ethos? Hell yeah. Is the place I’ve arrived in my thinking for everyone or even prudent? Beats me. I figure as long as I know what I’m doing and why, be intentful and honest with myself, and be clear with myself on what I sign up for is what I can really live with, then unlabeled relationships can have their merits.
And yes, Ive thought about what if I become involved over time with “a pony that can run” and develop deep feelings for, I’ll definitely let that person know what I want and I will want to know their mind. I would like to think that if I got a “let’s let things happen naturally” response I’d say “Things have been happening naturally. Now it’s time to decide if we are going forward or not” and I would discontinue the relationship instead of hanging on to the status quo even though discontuing would hurt like a big dog. I hope for myself I will do that.
I’ve previously been involved with not 1, not 2 but soo many men like this a few years back. Taking into account I was younger, naive and emotionally unavailable myself, I caused myself a tonne of pain getting involved with men who tell these kinda lies of how they’re ” afraid ” to label anything too soon or, the more popular version, we need ” time ” to determine where this goes. You know, so he can keep his options open and play his ace once he finds someone else who boosts his ego. Getting back to the post, honestly, I think this guy ( and you ) are not ready for a relationship. Girl, just back away from this guy. He sounds like trouble ( in the long term ).
When he said he didn’t want to put a label on things, if the truth for YOU is that you DO want a label on things, then SAY SO. It is OK to say “I’m only interested in having a monogamous BOYFRIEND, I want him to date only me and I want to date only him.” Thank him for his honesty. And then decide for yourself whether you want to keep him as a platonic outlet while you keep your feelers out for someone who thinks like you do about relationships. I think it is emotional folly to continue having sex with someone who does not want a similar level of investment in a relationship.
If your reaction to “Let’s not label things”, is “Oh, I’d better reel myself in, act like I’m cool with his parameters” – then you’re being dishonest with yourself and you need to step up and SAY “I want the label and the monogamy.” And then decide what role – what sexless role – you will allow this non-committal guy to have in your life. He should not get the majority of your mind or your time, but if he is a good guy, and the only sin is he does not want a committed relationship, and you enjoy his company, maybe this is where friendship can live. Although I’ve never seen that happen. People who remain “friends” with former lovers are usually hanging in there for ego strokes – an occasional bonk, a person to tell their relationship exploits to. Or they are secretly hoping to get that person to want them.
This has really made me sit up because actually it’s ME who is reluctant and not him! I’m 18 months out of a 6yr toxic relationship which ended with him doing an unforseen total disappearing act and cutting all communication. The cracker in the desert comment made me laugh too because it is just like that. My new BF is also very lovely to me, kind, caring, loving, considerate, generous….. everything my ex was not in fact but he is, and has been for some time, pushing for something more and that is making me pull back. I am happy enjoying ‘normal’ again and am not sure I want to do the whole moving In thing he keeps pushing for (he comes from 2 long term relationships where he was left and a childhood with issues) basically I am happy and he is not. Both of us on paper are very good for each other but I suspect he will end this soon as I’m not where he wants me to be. Very difficult and not easy from either side.
I think when men do this “I don’t want to label it” fob off to women, it’s because they’ve already decided that they don’t see a long term future with you, but they don’t want to cut off the easy access to sex/companionship while they shop around for someone *better*.
I’ve come to realise that the worst thing to do in that situation is just accept the uncertainty like a doormat.
If you’re willing to accept half a relationship that shows that you don’t value yourself, which just further solidifies the guy’s doubts that you’re not *good* enough.
Telling men that do this to sod off is win-win in my book. It basically smokes them out.
if they were just trying to string you along then then saying you want to end the relationship won’t make them suddenly commit. They’ll just whine about you being “demanding”.
If they were genuinely confused (which, in my experience, is very rare indeed) then you’re telling them that the timescale for making their mind up is not indefinite and they either have to decide or you’ll walk.
It’s amazing how men turn out to actually not be confused at all (one way or the other) when presented with a genuine, non-empty threat of “commit or I am off” as opposed to “yeah sure you take all the time in the world to decide what you want, while we continue to have sex and spend time together”.
Firstly, I want to make the distinction between two broad categories of “ass-clowns”.
There are the dangerous, personality-disordered ones who are never going to morph into acceptable partner material because, well, they’re disordered. Moving on!
Secondly, there are the “lovely men” who have wonderful potential and are good people but who are messed up at the moment and may (or may not) work on the reason for their unavailability and may (or may not) become wonderful partners.
I have had experience with both and they are NOTHING alike. Generally, the second type has us fooled (probably unintentionally because they are not aware of what’s going on in their psyche and can barely tell you their own name with conviction) from the beginning because they ARE “lovely”. They genuinely don’t want to hurt us and, if we’re coming from a place of crazy with the first type of “ass-clown”, they seem “lovely” and they seem like they have potential but only because they are lovely IN COMPARISON to the disordered person we’ve just left behind.
I am wondering if this may be what is going on here with Lauren and her “lovely” man.
My “lovely” man was….until he wasn’t. And there I was, boyfriend-less again, while he skipped blithely off into the sunset with the woman he left me for after two years of saying things like, “Who knows where we’ll be in 10 years,” and, “I don’t like talking about the future”.
Because he wasn’t belittling me and cheating and lying and seesawing with his moods like the disordered boyfriend before him, I thought, “What a LOVELY man!” and I ignored the red flags. I was obviously a rebound for him, even though he’d been single for a year and a half. He (un)intentionally sharpened his teeth on me and is now on top of his form to commit himself to the next woman. That sucks.
It’s taken me a year to get over him while having to watch him carrying on (in a MUCH more committed way) with the woman he left me for.
Lauren, if you’re reading my message, please tread carefully. If he’s hesitant and needs his space, give it to him. Right out the door. Do not look back. He knows where to find you if he’s ready and if he’s willing. No amount of wishing and waiting from you is going to make him pull himself together. And he may have no genuine desire to hurt you but you know what they say: “the path to hell is paved with good intentions” and if he’s on the rebound/untrusting/scared/hesitant/angry or mourning, he will hurt you.
You are worth more than being a beta version of trial and error until he gets it right.
Don’t be that girl.
Great comment, thanks for it. Not so long ago a guy I was having a superficial, but honest, fling with told me that no man would ever tell a woman he is seeing that he isn’t serious about her (he would hint, or show it by his actions, maybe). But the reverse is also true, a man who is serious about you and the relationship will make it known.
I was surprised how gently Nat took this one: any man who says he doesn’t want to ‘label’ a relationship is bad news. It shouldn’t be up to a woman to wait around until he decides, as in my experience, men know very, very quickly what they want with a woman (something superficial, or serious).
Even if he is pining for an ex, and obviously this isn’t a good candidate, but thinks you are the one he wants/needs he’ll do his best to make it happen. Don’t fall for the confused and scared BS, really.
Yes agree Magpie, similar to my post above in response to Sofia.
Carol – never a truer word spoken!
As I’ve gotten older, I’ve moved from AC type 1 to AC type 2 – and I think the latter “lovely” dudes are so much more damaging in terms of not having a more tangible reason to feel like you have to walk away, or start a difficult conversation about their behaviour (as you would do with a type 1).
I spent 4-5 months dating a guy a couple years back who was Mr Nice, and it was the closest thing I’d ever had to a relationship in years. Once we got to the 4 month mark, I wanted to know if this was legit or not, so I asked him, “where do you see yourself in 5 years time?” He paused momentarily before replying, “I dunno… haven’t thought about it that much.” When I asked him where he saw our relationship going, he was near mute! He finally said, “I’m not sure.”
In 4-5 months of dating we had a very set routine (I’d only see him on weekends and we’d do a movie and dinner), and he’d never talked about introducing me to friends or family. He was very passive and content in his own little bubble, and I got the impression that he wasn’t willing to try and integrate our lives any time soon – even though I’d moved from SE London to Essex to be nearer to him (dumb, I know but I thought it might prompt him to ask me to move in with him eventually).
I decided that I wasn’t going to allow him to waste another 5 months of my time seeing as he had no idea how he felt about me and our relationship, so I ended it. What woman would want a man who feels lukewarm about her? Who doesn’t know after months whether he’s ready to commit or not? FLUSH!
Let me speak from my personal experience and i would want women who have been in hurtful relationships listen to my story.
I have been with an abusive boyfriend for about 6 months, he never held hands with me in public and never in front of others put a label on me that i was his girlfriend, he said that in private between us two. he was looking for other women and messaging other women while he was with me i later found out. I ended that relationship because it was wretched and he wasn’t sure that the two of us could make it and he started to be very abusive.
After him i was in a relationship with a guy who went behind my back saying to others that i am his friends only while we have been in relationship well over 6 months, he was messaging on social media other women, sending them emoji of kisses and saying that he’s looking for a girlfriend. He never labeled me either. I ended that relationship as well.
Please ladies, only date men who want you completely and who want to label you as theirs. I made stupid choices,i was insecure and naive but i Know better now. If he isn’t emotionally available, just cut him loose. If he doesn’t want to label you after that many months, just cut him loose. Deal with men who are mature and want a good relationship. We need to start treating ourselves better ladies and be with men who are ready for a faithful relationship.
Agreed, my ex never acknowledged me on Facebook for example – something that I became obsessed with as on a gut level I knew it meant that I wasn’t serious, or he wasn’t committed to me, and like you he was actively seeking out other women (and referring to me as a ‘friend’ or his ‘housemate’).
Never, ever, ever be with a man who is ambivalent about making it clear to others that he is in a relationship for starters and then in a relationship with you, of course.
The only men who do this have no moral scruples, as I soon discovered, and see you as a ‘passing time candidate’ to use Nat’s phrase. He would say gumf like I like you best, or you’re my favourite as if this would make me feel better and less used.
Can’t believe I wasted so many years there, I understand why I did, but am clear now that any man who ‘needs time’ or uses ‘it’s a bad time’ excuse is never going to waste my time.
Then you have the ones who WILL label you but it still doesn’t mean anything – like the one who was chasing me behind his girlfriend’s back (I didn’t know she existed). They’re probably the worst of all because the gf actually thinks she means something to him – she’s introduced to friends/family etc. Boy was I glad I didn’t end up as his gf!
I would agree with everything on here. I was involved with a mr unavailable who I put up with for many months taking his crumbs and on and off behaviour. He then dropped me like a stone for a relationship which he isn’t happy in either (made me realise it really was him not me!). It took me a long time to get over him and I went for counselling which helped me understand why I was involved with someone like that. I then met a lovely man who is very good for me. I’ve no idea if mr unavailable was damaged from marriage break up or just like that but regardless his behaviour was pretty rubbish. When I met mr right he was off the dating website within two weeks and said he wanted to be in a relationship. No faffing, whining about previous ex’s, not ready etc. Very clear and always has been. I think a lot of men who are out dating are not ready and want the trappings of a relationship – sex, companionship etc but are still in the trauma room nursing their wounds and scared. Shame there are not more obvious signs but when I look back at the mr not ready/unavailables I have stuck with in the past the warning signs were all there, I just didn’t want to see them. Lauren, don’t waste your time on mr “i’m not ready” unless you are genuinely happy with that, but doesn’t sound like you are.
I have a friend who is with someone like this right now. He’s a good guy, we know he’s a good guy because we’ve all known each since we were children. We know him. We’ve seen him with his ex and his children. He’s stable and faithful.
Two years ago, his wife of 18 years cheated on him and ran off with her lover to move in with him immediately. That lasted a year and when it went belly-up she came back crying to him. He said no.
Unfortunately, he is, despite his good guy status, now completely emotionally unavailable. He wants to be with my friend but keeps managaing her expectations and talking about not losing his independence.
This man is decent, reliable and honest but his emotional unavailability means that he cannot give her – or anyone else – what they need until he sorts himself out.
It just goes to show that the good guys (or the good girls) can also be “ass-clowns” if they’re coming from a place of fear of being hurt again.
Trust no-one but yourself to make the decision for you. Trust your instincts and don’t expect someone else to look out for you because the only one who is going to do the best FOR YOU is you. Everyone else will be doing the best for them.
Been really interesting to read all these comments and hearing other people’s stories. Especially around interpretations of labeling/not labeling relationships.
When I think about putting a label on something I think of how I put labels on containers so I know what’s in them “flour” “pine nuts” “pillow cases”. Or how bunch of things I don’t know what to call – “misc”. Point is my containers ALL have a labels on them so I know what’s inside and don’t use “salt” instead of “suger”.
I’ve had to laugh inside when a someone thinks they can steer clear of putting a label on a relationship and continue having innumerable “arguments” (as in discourse/debates) about this.
They go something like:
Me: so what are we? Boyfriend/Girlfriend? Dating? “Serious?” “Casual” “Exclusive” “Friends” “Intimate” “Practical” etc.
Guy: ” I don’t want to put a label on our relationship.”
Me: “yeah, but isn’t that a label?”
Guy: “No because our relationship is undefined”
Me: “Meaning…?”
Guy: “We don’t have expectations of each other”
Me: “Got it. So that means it DOES have a label and I’ll write “Anything Goes” on it.”
Guy: “No, because I said I don’t want to put a label on our relationship”
Me: “Hang on, now I’m confused cuz you just said we are about not having any expectations of each other. SO then that’s what’s inside the container.”
Guy: “Yeah, that’s right.”
Me: ” So it IS a LABEL. And you are ARE putting it on our relationship so you know how to think of us.”
Guy: “You make me crazy….”
That was cute, Valerie.
So the label is “Have No Expectations”. Or maybe “Have No Expectations Because If You Do I will Surely Disappoint”. That’s a big jar. A big jar of nothing.
I am in the breaking up process with someone who’s “lovely” but EU and somewhat fixated with his past relationship. She left him and took their child to another country, and he’s now moving there for shared custody.
We let it develop organically but at this point when he’s about to move, when I need reassurance the most, he can’t find the right label. I’m his friend. I am also his girlfriend (when I pushed and explained that ‘friends’ don’t usually have sex).
It’s genuinely hard for him to talk about how the relationship might progress because he doesn’t know what will happen when he moves. But – This is in contrast to several months ago, when he returned from there and he suggested I move there with him. Now it’s “come to visit, see if you like it, see how it goes”. The goalposts have moved.
The obvious answer is let this guy go. There is a piece of my heart clinging on and thinking it could just work out if we can through the transition of him moving. Sucks.
‘when I pushed and explained that ‘friends’ don’t usually have sex’ – this says it all. If you have to explain things of this basic nature to someone, that to me is the equivalent of gas lighting. He’s making you doubt whether you’re even together, he’s making you think through it, he’s making you explain, and how willingly you step up to that plate. Let him leave. And move on. As it is I’m not sure what you get out of following to another country a man with whom there is no mutual commitment. And he has a messy divorce still to sort through.
It’s very confusing to be with someone who acts like he’s in a relationship with you, but keeps saying it’s not a relationship. I hated dealing with that ambiguity, but I did it for 2 freaking years. He’d call himself my boyfriend and talk about a future with me, then turn around and say he wasn’t ready for a relationship. He talked about marriage/moving in together, but couldn’t/wouldn’t tell his kids he was even dating. Back in April we had a chat about if we’d be together in 6 months or, if, thinking ahead, we’d want to be. He said he wanted to be together in 6 months. We didn’t make it that far. He had told me he loved me around that time and less than a month later broke up with me saying he couldn’t give me what I needed. I guess not.
Oh boy ….I check in with NATALIE when my heart is heavy …when I need to remember that I deserve love, care, respect and possibilities ..This morning I’m wiping tears….3 months ago my boyfriend of 5 years turned out to be a “future faker” and broke up with me in an email telling me he came to realize that the relationship isn’t working as he planned and for me to accept it and and to not contact him.
I did realize that he was avoiding the issue of marriage but didn’t push too hard Because well…”he is just so kind and sweet…of course we will be together in marriage”
I have not contacted him ( thanks to NATALIE ) but I have such a heavy heart…I pray everyday the this will eventually turn into “just somebody that I used to know”
Namaste ????????
Please note the ????? After Namaste was a typo …my hands are praying
I’d like to start by thanking Nat for another great read and to everyone who has commented.
I spent 18 years with an overt narcissist and 10 with a covert narcissist. I have read the crapola out of both situations and I’m proud of my progress in understanding myself so far. My mother was also a narcissist so I can see how and why I found myself in these toxic relationships. I’m 47 now, mum’s dead and I’m no contact with the assclowns.
I’m seeing someone who, because of our working relationship, is keeping us secret. Now before you all start shouting “RUN” I have spoken to a very dear and honest friend and read the above comments. My perspective is that I’m experiencing respect, care and honesty. I expect nothing and it’s a treat when he does something off his own bat to make me happy. At the moment we have no labels and for me it’s a breath of fresh air. I also treat it like a practice run so that if it doesn’t last, I’ll have learned some more lessons and will be in a better place for the one, if he comes along. I’m learning if nothing else and not fooling myself by betting on potential.
Life is a paradox, and what is for you won’t go by you.
Love and peace to you if you’re reading this.
Gillybean, do your thing. Just as long as you are always honest with yourself, that is most important. Sounds like you want something carefree and no strings for as long as it suits you, and this office guy is perfect for that. Practice safe sex, because he is probably just as respectful/caring/honest and secretive with other women in every department.