When it comes to forgiveness, we tend to overcomplicate it. We sometimes act as if we’re a higher power that can bestow forgiveness on people while refusing to forgive ourselves. Our conflicted relationship with forgiveness results in us feeling angry, wounded, and stuck in a disappointment cycle.
Forgiveness is about letting go which only comes about with perspective. This isn’t something we can have if we’re still blaming ourselves for why something went down. We won’t forgive if we put up walls as a way to defend us against ever being ‘back there’ again.
It’s like, This person and that person hurt me/let me down/pissed me off/won’t become who I want/won’t amend their behaviour so that I can be in less pain without having to take assertive boundaried action. OK, so I’m going to hold on to my anger or shame me so that the situation can never happen again. No one is gonna make a mug out of me again.
We take, for example, a breakup and the clumsy, crass, and yes, possibly outrageous things that were said or done, and a wall goes up to filter out the possibility of hurt. This blocks us from feeling and being vulnerable again, making us emotionally unavailable.
Walls are a block to intimacy.
Consciously or not, our actions defend us against the possibility of being screwed over. We do this by reminding us of the past and pushing on our fears. Of course, this means that we can’t move on (because we’re catering to the past). And so the pattern continues. Supergluing us to the past with guilt, anger, blame, shame, mistakes, and ‘failures’ compounds the pain.
Our feelings are valid. It’s what we do with them inwardly and outwardly that poses the problem.
Using feelings to determine we’re inferior and then guiding our next actions with that judgementexacerbates the issue. Feelings that could have dissipated with compassion and boundaries much sooner, last for weeks, months or even years.
It doesn’t mean that you have to trust them again or to the same degree as you did before. That doesn’t mean that you haven’t forgiven–it means that you have moved on and adjusted accordingly. Forgiveness never means ‘press the reset button‘.
Forgiving somebody doesn’t oblige them to change.
Forgiveness definitely doesn’t mean that you have to let them back into your life or engage with them in the same way. This is especially so if they’ve taken advantage of or even abused you.
To be clear: not letting someone back in your life to the extent they were before isn’t “bearing a grudge”.
It’s acknowledging what’s happened on both sides. There’s an adjustment so that you’re no longer open to it from them (or from anyone else for that matter). It doesn’t mean that you are owning their behaviour in any way, but it does mean that instead of blaming or relying on something outside of your control to change your feelings or circumstances, you are taking responsibility for how you want to feel and be going forward. You’re also letting them [as a result of what you’re doing] own their behaviour whether they choose to or not [because you’re not owning it and so as a result they’re not being sheltered from it either].
Here’s a very quick way of showing whether a situation is really about forgiveness:
If somebody does you wrong or you have a disagreement (or whatever it is), and you both get on a level about it, each of you forgives the other and moves on, then you both let go. And you know you have because things change in a positive way.
If, however, they do you wrong or you have a disagreement, etc., but you hold on to it and you are in fact sticking around to:
try to prove a something.
try to get your worth ‘back’.
tap into a hidden agenda (righting the wrongs of the past, trying to make them change).
and on top of this, your feelings and opinions about what went down are concealed, you’re not both on a level about the experience (taking responsibility). One or both of you remain the same, or you’ve even become less of who you are (to compensate for the issue and their lack of change). That’s a hell no to the situation being about forgiveness!
And as a bonus, if you move on from this person but you go to the next person/situation and are like, “My boundaries this… and my boundaries that” (no one who has healthy boundaries ever needs to say this) or you tell them what you’re afraid of because of what the other person did or you pretty much act as you did with the other person before the incident(s) or after it, then no, you haven’t forgiven.
We forgive ourselves and others when we strive to be more boundaried.
Boundaries are forgiveness.
When you choose to have healthier boundaries for you then you are showing that you have the perspective to let go of the feelings and thoughts around the anger and hurt of the situation.
Even if your ‘part’ is the bit where you beat you up afterwards for what they did, or you were overgiving to try to prove something about you or to ‘make’ them be/do something, acknowledge it. Then choose a more boundaried course of action that loves, cares for, respects and trusts you in the process.
Don’t want to be open to your boundaries being busted in the same way? Have better boundaries. Don’t build a wall of fear to block out everything; it invites more of what you don’t want.
If you’re giving away your power to feel better about you and a situation, then you’re not being boundaried. Nothing is going to change. It’s like going, “The only contributor to my pain is the other person’s behaviour and/or what they won’t do for me to make how I feel right”. Also, what’s the point in breaking your neck to forgive others when you haven’t made things right with you? All it leads to is resentment and feeling as if you have unpaid debts.
You acknowledging where you not taking care of you made you more open to what someone else was doing, does not mean that you caused their actions.
Acknowledging your unmet needs means that you’re acknowledging that even if you had the most loving of intentions for them, that there might be something in what you were doing that meant that it was not a course of action that was rooted in love, care, trust and respect for you. Golden examples: people pleasing, overgiving, and allowing people to bust your boundaries as a show of your love and loyalty.
Acknowledging what you can learn from a situation and what you could heal and evolve from as a result means that you don’t need to think and act as if you’re under threat all the time because you now have the better boundaries to take care of you.
If being in a situation that hurt you deeply awakened you to the need to have boundaries about something, grab the lesson and run with it. Extrapolate this experience with this person into a life lesson that can help you be a happier you. Healthier boundaries mean that you can’t be in the same space that the old issue existed in with this person (or anyone else).
Improving your boundaries even just a little means that you are not open to whatever the past issue was in the same way. You’re moving on with love and compassion.
Your thoughts?
PS If you want to learn more about how to have healthier boundaries, check out my 30-day project, Embrace Healthy Boundaries.
I write a modern day relationship & lifestyle blog and I have to say what a beautiful blog post this was. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, outlook and words! Truly beautiful. http://www.themoderndaygirlfriend.com
Best,
@moderndaygf
Blaise
on 07/06/2016 at 3:49 am
Arianna, do not advertise here. That is a crappy thing to do.
Julie
on 07/06/2016 at 3:11 pm
I don’t think you should be advertising here either, that is not what this space is for, at least in my understanding. It feels as if you are trying to get a free ride on the back of Natalie’s very hard and sustained work of over 10 years.
Rewind
on 06/06/2016 at 7:59 pm
So I have a question….I recently accepted a dinner invitation with a lady that went to a conference with the N. Before we even had a drink in hand, she said “I just have to tell you about the conference.” And then proceeded to tell me about all the many things her and the N did together, and very little about the actual conference. I just sat there and smiled and laughed, but I was dying inside. Then the next day I was so angry, I actually wrote the N and told him about the dinner and reiterated all the things she had said. Probably a mistake but I felt better.
Anyway, now I am thinking I should “unfriend” her on fb and maybe write and tell her that I just need to remove myself from situations that are a reminder of the N. We friended each other on fb initially because I think we were both curious about one another. Would unfriending her be rude? Even if I explain why?
I think she was on a mission to try and see what I would say because she’s just not sure if the N and I still have a relationship. I didn’t say a thing, so I’m sure she was disappointed. But it sure unhinged me.
NATALIE
on 06/06/2016 at 9:04 pm
Unfriend and with no explanation. Remember that Facebook is not real life and so friendship on there doesn’t mean that you are actual friends. She’s a harem member sussing you out and peeing a ring around her territory. You’ve then gone and fed his ego–he must be loving it haha. But the key thing now is to move on and remove you out of the situation. This is not a friendship–this is two women competing. Unless you want to compete for a narc and fan his ego, opt out. Let this experience be a notification to you that you have not made peace with you yet so begin that process with some better boundaries instead of being open to this stuff.
Rewind
on 06/06/2016 at 9:12 pm
Oh Natalie…thank you SO much for responding. I have really battled with what I should do. It’s funny…I just learned today about yet another (from dozens) girl that the N has been sleeping with. So you are so right about harem members. Love it. And I love “she is sussing me out and peeing a ring around her territory.” Too funny.
But what isn’t funny is how long it is taking me to get over the deadbeat. I haven’t physically been with him for almost a year, after being with him for 6 years off and on, but it’s still really painful to hear about him with other women. You are right…it competition.
SO I WILL set a boundary to know be involved with anyone that has to do with him. AND to remember my power word “indifference.”
Rewind
on 06/06/2016 at 9:14 pm
Sorry for the typos….”it IS competition.” And “I will set a boundary to NOT be involved.”
E
on 06/06/2016 at 11:32 pm
Natalie, your advice to Rewind is pure gold here. I wish I’d been the recipient of it way back when I was in a similar situation.
Demke
on 06/06/2016 at 9:12 pm
I think you should let things be, and just keep moving forward with your life. Let her have him. And if you want to unfriend her, go ahead, or… you can start to go out, have fun, start living your life… and share it on FB for everyone to see how you are living a happier life.
Don’t worry about whether other people think you’re “rude”, do whatever the hell you want… you don’t have to explain anything.
And don’t always assume what other people are thinking, you don’t know for sure what her agenda was/is, it’s just that it was really on your mind and you’re in obsession mode about your ex.
Rewind
on 06/06/2016 at 9:33 pm
You empower me…I love “do whatever the hell I want…I don’t have to explain anything.”
That is good advice to this people pleaser.
Suki
on 07/06/2016 at 6:20 pm
If I was trying to make friends w a woman, and I knew her ex, I wouldn’t keep going on and on about him – it’s not polite or kind. I wouldn’t do it UNLESS I needed to make this person feel insecure or build myself up at the expense of another. And then what kind of friend would I be?
Kriss
on 07/06/2016 at 9:11 pm
I sometimes wish there was a ‘like’ button on here for things like this comment.
happy b
on 08/06/2016 at 9:18 am
It gives me a twinge of sadness to how the narc harem shakes up everyone’s values who is involved in it, because they’re in such a shady situation. My reading is that he’s stirring up jealousy and competition, which makes her insecure, which makes her ‘friend’ a woman in a way that is at best insensitive and disingenuous. She is responsible for her actions, but it can happen to the most kind-hearted people if they don’t wise up.
Rewind
on 08/06/2016 at 2:27 pm
I agree. With all the many, many women he is with all at the same time, I many times had the urge to want to know them…and seek them out…and yes, I wanted to shout “DO YOU KNOW THAT I HAVE BEEN SLEEPING WITH HIM???” But I didn’t. And listening to this woman tell me everything that they did at the conference as painful. Even though he isn’t in my life anymore, it’s painful. So I know what you mean when you said that even though she is responsible for what she did, I truly do think she is a very good person. But due to the circumstances, we can never be friends. Sad…
happy b
on 08/06/2016 at 10:50 pm
Rewind, good to see so much compassion. She thinks you and others are in the way of a good relationship, very misguided. I remember focusing all my anger on the women who appeared and their insincerity, not him. Sisters before misters! It’s something I say to myself a lot since I got out of the harem and rediscovered real friendship. My heart goes out to those women now, forgiveness of me and them, and I bet they’re the same. I know how it hurts but everyday you’ll feel luckier to have put it behind you, once you do.
HappyAgain
on 06/06/2016 at 9:21 pm
I had several experiences the other month where someone busted my boundaries big time. I kept it to myself because i was embarrased and saddened the person did what they did. Then i shared one but was still too embarassed to share the other until just last week. I had to because it made me sad and was affecting me. I know ackowledging the experiences and my feelings about what happened and how i was treated after both are important for me moving forward because i know i didnt deserve what happened and also didnt deserve the way i was treated after these incidents. I have the need for forgiveness for myself the most because oddly i somewhat disconnected him from it even though it was directly from him. I think i just didnt know what to do with it so i disconnected myself and my subsequent actions also then were disconnected trying to make it different. I am just now comjng to terms with things and my feelings so i may process through them and not be fenced off because i am afraid.
HappyAgain
on 06/06/2016 at 9:25 pm
Im sad and its true and its ok.
NATALIE
on 06/06/2016 at 10:02 pm
I just caught this before I skidaddle to my bed.
HappyAgain, you’re being far too hard on you. Sadness is a sign of reflecting inwards but also a need for self-care. You need compassion not beating you up. Boundary issues present themselves all the time–it’s called life. Now granted, in your situ, one person did it several times but acknowledging the truth of what went down is the path to freedom from these feelings of sadness.
I suspect that you didn’t have an active response because of a mix of confusion and fear of stepping up (maybe potential consequences from this person), after all, a person that busts your boundaries more than one and actually, in quick succession, would infer that they might respond badly (because they don’t give a sh-t). You didn’t know what to do and that is OK but that doesn’t mean that you cannot do something *for you* now. What can you do for you now that will improve how you feel in a positive and constructive way even though it is not going to change the past or 100% fix the problem? Do that. I think if you notice who or what this person was similar to, then it will give you some clues about what this can heal for you. Hugs, Natalie
HappyAgain
on 06/06/2016 at 10:09 pm
Thank you. I cut ties with this person the other month due to chopping and boundaries busting. I recognize part of the reason i didnt step up is because i didnt want this experience. I wanted the person to be different and to treat me better and not have to deal with what he did and who he really was. Thank you for the consideration and hugs.
HappyAgain
on 06/06/2016 at 10:21 pm
I also had to realize i was suffering from “cant believe he doesnt want me syndrome” from another one of your posts. This verse really stuck out for me:
“Every, single, last woman was still expressing disbelief that somebody who had behaved without love, care, trust, and respect and had shown themselves to be a poor relationship partner, didn’t want them.”
I had to accept this was true and it was strange i was “mourning” something and someone that displayed the poor qualities. He would have had to be an entirely different person for me to not have had the experiences i did.
Ann
on 12/07/2016 at 2:00 pm
HappyAgain,
I think finding your post was a sign from the universe lol I’m on the same boat. Where boundaries were broken and me not being able to step up. For some context, We were never on the same page to begin with. Or at least I thought we were. We were on good terms after the breakup but I should have done more to be compassionate with myself. Even though we were only together for a short time, I feel strongly for him (and we started off as friends to boot) I just feel sad that he could hurt me and definitely also suffering from “can’t believe or why doesn’t he want me” syndrome haha
Im doing the No Contact for the moment, but unfortunately we run in the same circle and blah he already has a new person so that’s been affecting me. I had to cut ties for my own sanity and because I consider him a friend once before the whole romantic entanglement. I need to take care of myself first even if it means not being friends with him.
All around sad situation mourning a loss of the friendship and relationship, but I think I’ll sort through it. There is no hate between us so I’m thankful for that.
Thank you for your insight as well! Take care 🙂
LauraG
on 06/06/2016 at 10:05 pm
Natalie,
This was a unique perspective. I never tied forgiveness to boundaries before. Now that I am thinking about it, I am having a hard time forgiving myself for not having good boundaries last summer with a needy man who ended up wheedling and texting and whining his way back into my life. I don’t understand why I feel this so strongly, but I almost hate him now. I think I got so disgusted with me for being so lonely and low-self-esteem that I would allow him back into my life, just to feel like I was being NICE. I needed to be seen as nice and he was so nice that I thought I had to not be mean. But then I ended up hanging out with someone I didn’t like that much and who made me feel guilty all the time. My mother manipulated with guilt and I have a virulent hatred of the passive-aggressive use of guilt so I guess that is why I feel “hate.” It is irrational but strong. And it is connected to shame.
This is helping me to think this through. I need to forgive me because I feel such SHAME. I had really good boundaries after we dated for two months then calmly and lovingingly said he was not the man for me and good-bye. But he threw down the “let’s be friends” card and I took the bait. Even though it felt wrong. I have really learned this year that friendship is not a consolation prize for a failed relationship: friendship IS the prize. And few people are true friends nor do I have the time for more than a few. So, I will now look at forgiving me for being shamed and guilted into doing something that felt wrong and wasted 6 months of my life. But, I guess its not a waste if I learned.
Amanda Stone
on 06/06/2016 at 10:36 pm
Last year a complete EU AC of the worst kind just disappeared out of my life without a word then or since. It nearly totally destroyed me but I survived and am stronger. Now the man I met 6 months ago is turning out to be needy clingy controlling and manipulative. I have been backing off and wondering why but now I see that actually this time round I do have some boundaries. I’m not staying in something wrong for me again but I struggle with feeling guilty and the hurt i will cause this nice man. He is playing it for all he’s worth and I don’t know how to stop feeling like the bad guy without just being guilt tripped into staying put.
HappyAgain
on 06/06/2016 at 10:44 pm
Amanda,
People who are ok with you staying with them and playing off your feeling bad for them arent usually willing to extend the same favor. You sacrificing your feelings for theirs rarely works but rather you feel worse. Someone who cares about you values your feelings even if they are not what they prefer. You will quit feeling like the bad guy when you take the same time you are feeling bad to validate your feelings and your right to have the feelings and be compassionate and caring to yourself. ((Hugs to you))
Suki
on 07/06/2016 at 6:23 pm
How can he be nice and clingy and manipulative and playing it for all he’s worth? You don’t owe him anything. Kindly break it off and protect yourself and your time.
Cat
on 08/06/2016 at 10:29 pm
If you break with him, you’re not being the bad guy. He’s not being good to you if he’s acting the way you’re describing, so you need to be good to yourself!
Megan
on 06/06/2016 at 11:02 pm
Thank you Natalie, for another timed article. This really spoke deeply to me about the letting go of debt/pain/true forgiveness. Specifically where you say that you still haven’t forgiven if you’re putting up walls of avoidance. It’s still feeding the past, because I have allowed these yucky feelings to influence my decision of 2 yr abstinence, although I know this was ultimately a healthy need after a series of long term tumultuous relationships. The goal is to heal, not keep feeding the same awful mentality. I learned hella boundaries from this last awful ex, thankfully! I have kind of run with the boundaries thing, because sometimes, when you come from no boundaries, extreme boundaries for a bit, can help one gauge a happy medium.
Thanx again for your wonderful work. 🙂
C
on 07/06/2016 at 12:04 am
Just what I needed to hear. You’re my hero, Nat!
Veracity
on 07/06/2016 at 12:05 am
I’ve been steadily forgiving myself for years of self neglect and allowing myself to be bullied. I’ve also been forgiving myself and my daughter for our issues. It is easier to forgive when we can see our/their humanity.
I’ve also found that it does help me strengthen my boundaries. I can forgive, but doesn’t mean that I forget or give a pass – it just shows me where I need to firm things up and keep it firm.
justbe
on 07/06/2016 at 7:18 am
I’m still struggling to forgive myself and my ex for our entire loss of love family and relationship. My ex had an affair and 2 yrs ago. They are playing ‘happy ever after’. It’s as if my life has stopped and someone else is living my life. I see my role that contribute to her having that affair. The other suggested she was not ashamed of having feelings for my ex….outwardly suggested my ex was unhappy. I do blame myself. I still dream of my ex. I’m constantly met with triggers which take me back facing secondary trauma. Boundaries I had them. I want them in my next relationship. I want to learn. Find peace love and forgiveness. I’m stuck. I still mourn what was meant to be my future. I hadto go NC to survive. I had to fight for survival for the kids family home and sanity. It was the right decision at the time. But i do live in a cycle of ‘if only’ blame myself and guilt. What are the basic boundaries and how do I become unstuck? Hoping for wisdom. So i can ‘just be’. X
Dancingqueen
on 15/07/2016 at 7:58 am
“I’m stuck. I still mourn what was meant to be my future. ”
Well this is the thing: I know it doesn’t seem it, but this is an improvement. Your future would have been to be stuck with a cheater. You instead have a life that is awaiting you where you can have a better future. As for her, being with a cheater is not the grounds for a future that will probably be very happy.
Take care of yourself. There is no need to envy either of them.
justbe
on 07/06/2016 at 7:21 am
My ex had no biological link to the children.
nkay
on 07/06/2016 at 7:40 pm
I have been an avid reader of your posts Natalie,and I must commend you for the good work you’re doing..you’re really doing an awesome job,and all of you who share your stories,your experiences,comments and how you pulled thru are really insightful and I have learnt a lot from this site.
Well,I really got to know about NC from this site when I was emotionally down from a relationship I had,I was just surfing the net looking for ways to heal,move past the experience and move on,that was how I stumbled on baggage reclaim and ever since then,I have been here,glued to this site,reading,comments by comments..and I decided to go NC for my well-being..
While I was in that rship wit my ex,he emotionally abused me,I wouldn’t know what to say or do that would make him angry the next minute,i had to choose the words I say to him,or he would cut the call on me in the middle of a phone conversation..it was hell..and I would cry and cry for days,begging him to pick my calls,at least tell me what I said that made him angry..after some days,he would now call back and say I said this and that,that made him angry and that’s why he cut the call on me..
One day when he repeated that,I had to pause and think maybe I’m dating a psycho..as in I couldn’t come to terms on how a normal human being would just get angry at the person he claims he loves for no reason..it was as if he was enjoying my pleas and how I cry to him each he does that..that was when I stumbled on baggage reclaim and after reading stuffs from here,I said to myself enuf is enuf!I didn’t beg him like I used to,and guess what he didn’t call back till after 4months!
He went on and on about how he has missed me and loves me bla bla bla!I was like guy..are u for real?and the mistake I made was picking his call,I would have just ignored!
I told him how cruel he was to me and how he abused me emotionally and of course,he rained insults at me,telling me how bitter I was by still remembering what happened 4months ago,and people that are bitter rarely have good relationship,he said soo many cruel things to me..
I just had to warn him to loose my number and never contact me again!
Magpie
on 07/06/2016 at 9:24 pm
Am not sure exactly why but I have problems with the word forgiveness here, I think Nat is meaning as a kind of acceptance or letting go, but this emotional distance she is talking about can’t be willed, it takes time. And I actually think a lot of emphasis on forgiveness can cause harm, especially when people feel judged for still feeling hurt, or shocked.
In my experience the best solution was improving other parts of my life that I had completely let go for years because of a traumatic relationship that I’m sure you can all relate to having experienced. But I could only do this when the man was out of my life, or I didn’t need/care so much because other things were working out.
I think sometimes the shock element is the hardest thing to let go of, the how could he have been so abusive, or cared so little? It’s difficult not to take on the little girl role here, where in our innocence we try to find logic in a difficult situation (and just like little children we think it’s always about us, when it really isn’t).
The ‘best’ way for me now to think about my ex is to see him as a ‘nutty guy’ someone a bit ridiculous (I mean he texted/called/visited after months, while he is still living with his other girlfriend … doing the old reset technique, though not lying too much, thank god and I was so proud that I could write jokey texts, teasing him a little). Maybe this is the forgiveness Nat is talking about, even though I wouldn’t use that word.
And I’m not sure how forgiveness can help stopping the repeat, I had a negative relationship after this long-term one with the dishonest in all ways man, where I was fast-forwarded by someone who ‘seemed so different’ … What I know is there is still plenty for me to work on by myself, even if I don’t feel so affected by my ex I’m still not sure I have the skills or confidence yet to avoid another abusive relationship.
Leila
on 08/06/2016 at 1:30 pm
Magpie, That’s exactly how I feel. I especially agree with needing time and improving other parts of your life, and that it can’t be done until you have time away. I’m getting back into Art and music and rediscovering the creative parts of me that were lost in a dodgey relationship with someone who didn’t really appreciate the very thing that made me, me. The feeling of shock and betrayal is still there but slowly diminishing, and the edge on the hurt has dulled . But it’s taken 7 months to get here . I’ve finally accepted that I need time to heal. And to not be embarrassed any more about how long I need . I laughed at your nutty guy reference . My ex suggested a friendly coffee catch up, but I knew I would only be able to ever view him As a clown sitting opposite me dribbling absolute shite out of his mouth , and that he would in fact just be a spectacle to stare at … Like a bad side show act. Reading Nat’s piece is good for thought as I’m
Keen to move on .
Thank you to both Nat and magpie
Stephanie
on 07/06/2016 at 10:45 pm
This is such a great article and I have found that forgiving is so not about that person. You need to forgive them for yourself, but also keep it moving! Don’t engage or give them the impression that although you don’t hate them, you also don’t need to deal with them anymore. I just came to the realization he was who he was and he was not for me. I didn’t care one way or another if he ever talked to me because I had reached this level of acceptance. Once I forgave him and myself, I was set free.
lonelycat
on 08/06/2016 at 11:25 am
Thank you so much for this post Natalie, it was difficult for me to read but exactly what I needed.My unavailable ex who broke up with me 6 months ago (but I still have strong feelings for him and struggle with my own feelings of loneliness and missing him), reappeared in my life as I was making good progress and I even agreed to going on a holiday with him. I started feeling uncomfortable about it though whenever I remembered that this is not the beginning of something real and he’s not willing to commit to me. This post made a very interesting point that forgiveness and healing is linked to finding better boundaries and after reading it I cancelled our plans and told him I’m willing to see him for lunch and be friends but not do couply things like share a bed in a hotel. I don’t want to repeat past pain, and I don’t want to live in a wishful fantasy. I know this might not be a big deal for normal, assertive people, but for me setting this kind of boundary in spite of my feelings is something new.
One of my favourite quotes that made me lol was: “OK, this person let me down and won’t amend their behaviour so that I can be in less pain without having to take assertive boundaried action”. I love the emphasis of taking charge, and the options really are either outsource the responsibility for your happiness to the other person and what they do or won’t do, or accept things as they really are (instead of having unrealistic romantic ideas of things changing despite the evidence), decide what is OK or not with you and set boundaries. Thanks.
Stephanie
on 08/06/2016 at 4:24 pm
Lonelycat,
Good for you! Might I make another suggestion, don’t even go to lunch with him or try to be his friend. You need to go no contact so you can truly heal and move on. Otherwise you are on the right path to healing.
Cat
on 08/06/2016 at 10:35 pm
If you agree to lunch, he knows you’re still on the hook. It may be very difficult for you to continue keeping your boundaries since you already admit to still having strong feelings for him, especially if he turns on the charm.
sallysue
on 08/06/2016 at 8:19 pm
I sometimes have trouble telling whether something I’m doing is a wall or a boundary. For ex, my boyfriend asked to move in with me and I told him I’d prefer to wait until we are engaged or married. He’s fine with this. I want to wait for a variety of reasons, I have lived alone happily for many years and don’t want to give up my space unless I’m getting married, I’m older and a bit old fashioned, etc. But if I’m honest with myself, it’s also partly because I’m afraid of being trapped in a dead end long term relationship if we don’t already have that commitment in place before we live together. I’m not sure how much the fear is driving the decision and how much of it is just my boundary that I’m upholding. I wonder if I haven’t fully forgiven myself for being in a 3 year relationship that was dead end, even though we didn’t live together, I’m afraid of “being back there again” so not living with him without a commitment is a way to protect myself against that. I’m not going to change my mind on it but sometimes it’s hard to know my motivation because lots of different emotions and thinking go into a decision and I want it to be coming from a boundaried place and not a place of fear but sometimes it’s hard to know.
Healing
on 08/06/2016 at 9:44 pm
I’ve discovered if I rush to forgive, I stunt my feelings. So now, I feel what I need to feel about what happened and when I’m ready, the change in perspective comes naturally as my anger (or whatever feelings I have about the person/situation) lessens. I don’t ruminate or fuel the feelings, just feel them and in time I’m able to forgive without forcing it.
Brittany
on 09/06/2016 at 5:08 am
I love all your advice Natalie! Thank you so much for encouraging articles because they’ve helped me through a very painful breakup and I am now able to move on and have respect for myself. To Natalie and the comments of the readers thank you so much!
Mick
on 21/06/2016 at 11:22 pm
Wow, this article was just what I was looking for! Presently, I am going through a divorce and am trying to sort out what I am really responsible for. I’ve always been the type to take on more than is reasonably due to me and as a consequence have much shame and guilt to deal with. And it always plays out just as described in this article!
Definitely some good stuff to think about. I will be working on trying to forgive myself because it’s even more apparent now the high cost of not doing so.
LoveIsAnOcean
on 24/06/2016 at 4:28 am
FirstTimeCommenter: After years of popping here and sharing your work with my circle of friends here in NYC, it’s time for the 21 Gun Salute to Natalie Lue. I am in awe of you — of your spirit, of your intellect, of your wisdom and compassion. I don’t even know you and I am proud of you woman! Your little girls are quite the lucky creatures.
kerry
on 09/07/2016 at 3:04 am
jusybe you asked what the basic boundaries are. i think they ate: taking care of yourself, showing yourself love care respect. You are not doing those things if you allow someone to treat you badly. So you could agree to help a friend for example, as long as helping that friend did not impact on your ability to care for yourself. If to help out that friend you have to disrespect yourself or treat yourself badly in some way, then it shows you (and all the bad people!) that your boundaries are wrong/not there. That’s how I see it anyway 🙂
Megan
on 28/07/2016 at 7:26 pm
I read this before, and just read it again. Natalie, this is one of your best posts I have come across! Thank you.
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Hi!
I write a modern day relationship & lifestyle blog and I have to say what a beautiful blog post this was. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, outlook and words! Truly beautiful. http://www.themoderndaygirlfriend.com
Best,
@moderndaygf
Arianna, do not advertise here. That is a crappy thing to do.
I don’t think you should be advertising here either, that is not what this space is for, at least in my understanding. It feels as if you are trying to get a free ride on the back of Natalie’s very hard and sustained work of over 10 years.
So I have a question….I recently accepted a dinner invitation with a lady that went to a conference with the N. Before we even had a drink in hand, she said “I just have to tell you about the conference.” And then proceeded to tell me about all the many things her and the N did together, and very little about the actual conference. I just sat there and smiled and laughed, but I was dying inside. Then the next day I was so angry, I actually wrote the N and told him about the dinner and reiterated all the things she had said. Probably a mistake but I felt better.
Anyway, now I am thinking I should “unfriend” her on fb and maybe write and tell her that I just need to remove myself from situations that are a reminder of the N. We friended each other on fb initially because I think we were both curious about one another. Would unfriending her be rude? Even if I explain why?
I think she was on a mission to try and see what I would say because she’s just not sure if the N and I still have a relationship. I didn’t say a thing, so I’m sure she was disappointed. But it sure unhinged me.
Unfriend and with no explanation. Remember that Facebook is not real life and so friendship on there doesn’t mean that you are actual friends. She’s a harem member sussing you out and peeing a ring around her territory. You’ve then gone and fed his ego–he must be loving it haha. But the key thing now is to move on and remove you out of the situation. This is not a friendship–this is two women competing. Unless you want to compete for a narc and fan his ego, opt out. Let this experience be a notification to you that you have not made peace with you yet so begin that process with some better boundaries instead of being open to this stuff.
Oh Natalie…thank you SO much for responding. I have really battled with what I should do. It’s funny…I just learned today about yet another (from dozens) girl that the N has been sleeping with. So you are so right about harem members. Love it. And I love “she is sussing me out and peeing a ring around her territory.” Too funny.
But what isn’t funny is how long it is taking me to get over the deadbeat. I haven’t physically been with him for almost a year, after being with him for 6 years off and on, but it’s still really painful to hear about him with other women. You are right…it competition.
SO I WILL set a boundary to know be involved with anyone that has to do with him. AND to remember my power word “indifference.”
Sorry for the typos….”it IS competition.” And “I will set a boundary to NOT be involved.”
Natalie, your advice to Rewind is pure gold here. I wish I’d been the recipient of it way back when I was in a similar situation.
I think you should let things be, and just keep moving forward with your life. Let her have him. And if you want to unfriend her, go ahead, or… you can start to go out, have fun, start living your life… and share it on FB for everyone to see how you are living a happier life.
Don’t worry about whether other people think you’re “rude”, do whatever the hell you want… you don’t have to explain anything.
And don’t always assume what other people are thinking, you don’t know for sure what her agenda was/is, it’s just that it was really on your mind and you’re in obsession mode about your ex.
You empower me…I love “do whatever the hell I want…I don’t have to explain anything.”
That is good advice to this people pleaser.
If I was trying to make friends w a woman, and I knew her ex, I wouldn’t keep going on and on about him – it’s not polite or kind. I wouldn’t do it UNLESS I needed to make this person feel insecure or build myself up at the expense of another. And then what kind of friend would I be?
I sometimes wish there was a ‘like’ button on here for things like this comment.
It gives me a twinge of sadness to how the narc harem shakes up everyone’s values who is involved in it, because they’re in such a shady situation. My reading is that he’s stirring up jealousy and competition, which makes her insecure, which makes her ‘friend’ a woman in a way that is at best insensitive and disingenuous. She is responsible for her actions, but it can happen to the most kind-hearted people if they don’t wise up.
I agree. With all the many, many women he is with all at the same time, I many times had the urge to want to know them…and seek them out…and yes, I wanted to shout “DO YOU KNOW THAT I HAVE BEEN SLEEPING WITH HIM???” But I didn’t. And listening to this woman tell me everything that they did at the conference as painful. Even though he isn’t in my life anymore, it’s painful. So I know what you mean when you said that even though she is responsible for what she did, I truly do think she is a very good person. But due to the circumstances, we can never be friends. Sad…
Rewind, good to see so much compassion. She thinks you and others are in the way of a good relationship, very misguided. I remember focusing all my anger on the women who appeared and their insincerity, not him. Sisters before misters! It’s something I say to myself a lot since I got out of the harem and rediscovered real friendship. My heart goes out to those women now, forgiveness of me and them, and I bet they’re the same. I know how it hurts but everyday you’ll feel luckier to have put it behind you, once you do.
I had several experiences the other month where someone busted my boundaries big time. I kept it to myself because i was embarrased and saddened the person did what they did. Then i shared one but was still too embarassed to share the other until just last week. I had to because it made me sad and was affecting me. I know ackowledging the experiences and my feelings about what happened and how i was treated after both are important for me moving forward because i know i didnt deserve what happened and also didnt deserve the way i was treated after these incidents. I have the need for forgiveness for myself the most because oddly i somewhat disconnected him from it even though it was directly from him. I think i just didnt know what to do with it so i disconnected myself and my subsequent actions also then were disconnected trying to make it different. I am just now comjng to terms with things and my feelings so i may process through them and not be fenced off because i am afraid.
Im sad and its true and its ok.
I just caught this before I skidaddle to my bed.
HappyAgain, you’re being far too hard on you. Sadness is a sign of reflecting inwards but also a need for self-care. You need compassion not beating you up. Boundary issues present themselves all the time–it’s called life. Now granted, in your situ, one person did it several times but acknowledging the truth of what went down is the path to freedom from these feelings of sadness.
I suspect that you didn’t have an active response because of a mix of confusion and fear of stepping up (maybe potential consequences from this person), after all, a person that busts your boundaries more than one and actually, in quick succession, would infer that they might respond badly (because they don’t give a sh-t). You didn’t know what to do and that is OK but that doesn’t mean that you cannot do something *for you* now. What can you do for you now that will improve how you feel in a positive and constructive way even though it is not going to change the past or 100% fix the problem? Do that. I think if you notice who or what this person was similar to, then it will give you some clues about what this can heal for you. Hugs, Natalie
Thank you. I cut ties with this person the other month due to chopping and boundaries busting. I recognize part of the reason i didnt step up is because i didnt want this experience. I wanted the person to be different and to treat me better and not have to deal with what he did and who he really was. Thank you for the consideration and hugs.
I also had to realize i was suffering from “cant believe he doesnt want me syndrome” from another one of your posts. This verse really stuck out for me:
“Every, single, last woman was still expressing disbelief that somebody who had behaved without love, care, trust, and respect and had shown themselves to be a poor relationship partner, didn’t want them.”
I had to accept this was true and it was strange i was “mourning” something and someone that displayed the poor qualities. He would have had to be an entirely different person for me to not have had the experiences i did.
HappyAgain,
I think finding your post was a sign from the universe lol I’m on the same boat. Where boundaries were broken and me not being able to step up. For some context, We were never on the same page to begin with. Or at least I thought we were. We were on good terms after the breakup but I should have done more to be compassionate with myself. Even though we were only together for a short time, I feel strongly for him (and we started off as friends to boot) I just feel sad that he could hurt me and definitely also suffering from “can’t believe or why doesn’t he want me” syndrome haha
Im doing the No Contact for the moment, but unfortunately we run in the same circle and blah he already has a new person so that’s been affecting me. I had to cut ties for my own sanity and because I consider him a friend once before the whole romantic entanglement. I need to take care of myself first even if it means not being friends with him.
All around sad situation mourning a loss of the friendship and relationship, but I think I’ll sort through it. There is no hate between us so I’m thankful for that.
Thank you for your insight as well! Take care 🙂
Natalie,
This was a unique perspective. I never tied forgiveness to boundaries before. Now that I am thinking about it, I am having a hard time forgiving myself for not having good boundaries last summer with a needy man who ended up wheedling and texting and whining his way back into my life. I don’t understand why I feel this so strongly, but I almost hate him now. I think I got so disgusted with me for being so lonely and low-self-esteem that I would allow him back into my life, just to feel like I was being NICE. I needed to be seen as nice and he was so nice that I thought I had to not be mean. But then I ended up hanging out with someone I didn’t like that much and who made me feel guilty all the time. My mother manipulated with guilt and I have a virulent hatred of the passive-aggressive use of guilt so I guess that is why I feel “hate.” It is irrational but strong. And it is connected to shame.
This is helping me to think this through. I need to forgive me because I feel such SHAME. I had really good boundaries after we dated for two months then calmly and lovingingly said he was not the man for me and good-bye. But he threw down the “let’s be friends” card and I took the bait. Even though it felt wrong. I have really learned this year that friendship is not a consolation prize for a failed relationship: friendship IS the prize. And few people are true friends nor do I have the time for more than a few. So, I will now look at forgiving me for being shamed and guilted into doing something that felt wrong and wasted 6 months of my life. But, I guess its not a waste if I learned.
Last year a complete EU AC of the worst kind just disappeared out of my life without a word then or since. It nearly totally destroyed me but I survived and am stronger. Now the man I met 6 months ago is turning out to be needy clingy controlling and manipulative. I have been backing off and wondering why but now I see that actually this time round I do have some boundaries. I’m not staying in something wrong for me again but I struggle with feeling guilty and the hurt i will cause this nice man. He is playing it for all he’s worth and I don’t know how to stop feeling like the bad guy without just being guilt tripped into staying put.
Amanda,
People who are ok with you staying with them and playing off your feeling bad for them arent usually willing to extend the same favor. You sacrificing your feelings for theirs rarely works but rather you feel worse. Someone who cares about you values your feelings even if they are not what they prefer. You will quit feeling like the bad guy when you take the same time you are feeling bad to validate your feelings and your right to have the feelings and be compassionate and caring to yourself. ((Hugs to you))
How can he be nice and clingy and manipulative and playing it for all he’s worth? You don’t owe him anything. Kindly break it off and protect yourself and your time.
If you break with him, you’re not being the bad guy. He’s not being good to you if he’s acting the way you’re describing, so you need to be good to yourself!
Thank you Natalie, for another timed article. This really spoke deeply to me about the letting go of debt/pain/true forgiveness. Specifically where you say that you still haven’t forgiven if you’re putting up walls of avoidance. It’s still feeding the past, because I have allowed these yucky feelings to influence my decision of 2 yr abstinence, although I know this was ultimately a healthy need after a series of long term tumultuous relationships. The goal is to heal, not keep feeding the same awful mentality. I learned hella boundaries from this last awful ex, thankfully! I have kind of run with the boundaries thing, because sometimes, when you come from no boundaries, extreme boundaries for a bit, can help one gauge a happy medium.
Thanx again for your wonderful work. 🙂
Just what I needed to hear. You’re my hero, Nat!
I’ve been steadily forgiving myself for years of self neglect and allowing myself to be bullied. I’ve also been forgiving myself and my daughter for our issues. It is easier to forgive when we can see our/their humanity.
I’ve also found that it does help me strengthen my boundaries. I can forgive, but doesn’t mean that I forget or give a pass – it just shows me where I need to firm things up and keep it firm.
I’m still struggling to forgive myself and my ex for our entire loss of love family and relationship. My ex had an affair and 2 yrs ago. They are playing ‘happy ever after’. It’s as if my life has stopped and someone else is living my life. I see my role that contribute to her having that affair. The other suggested she was not ashamed of having feelings for my ex….outwardly suggested my ex was unhappy. I do blame myself. I still dream of my ex. I’m constantly met with triggers which take me back facing secondary trauma. Boundaries I had them. I want them in my next relationship. I want to learn. Find peace love and forgiveness. I’m stuck. I still mourn what was meant to be my future. I hadto go NC to survive. I had to fight for survival for the kids family home and sanity. It was the right decision at the time. But i do live in a cycle of ‘if only’ blame myself and guilt. What are the basic boundaries and how do I become unstuck? Hoping for wisdom. So i can ‘just be’. X
“I’m stuck. I still mourn what was meant to be my future. ”
Well this is the thing: I know it doesn’t seem it, but this is an improvement. Your future would have been to be stuck with a cheater. You instead have a life that is awaiting you where you can have a better future. As for her, being with a cheater is not the grounds for a future that will probably be very happy.
Take care of yourself. There is no need to envy either of them.
My ex had no biological link to the children.
I have been an avid reader of your posts Natalie,and I must commend you for the good work you’re doing..you’re really doing an awesome job,and all of you who share your stories,your experiences,comments and how you pulled thru are really insightful and I have learnt a lot from this site.
Well,I really got to know about NC from this site when I was emotionally down from a relationship I had,I was just surfing the net looking for ways to heal,move past the experience and move on,that was how I stumbled on baggage reclaim and ever since then,I have been here,glued to this site,reading,comments by comments..and I decided to go NC for my well-being..
While I was in that rship wit my ex,he emotionally abused me,I wouldn’t know what to say or do that would make him angry the next minute,i had to choose the words I say to him,or he would cut the call on me in the middle of a phone conversation..it was hell..and I would cry and cry for days,begging him to pick my calls,at least tell me what I said that made him angry..after some days,he would now call back and say I said this and that,that made him angry and that’s why he cut the call on me..
One day when he repeated that,I had to pause and think maybe I’m dating a psycho..as in I couldn’t come to terms on how a normal human being would just get angry at the person he claims he loves for no reason..it was as if he was enjoying my pleas and how I cry to him each he does that..that was when I stumbled on baggage reclaim and after reading stuffs from here,I said to myself enuf is enuf!I didn’t beg him like I used to,and guess what he didn’t call back till after 4months!
He went on and on about how he has missed me and loves me bla bla bla!I was like guy..are u for real?and the mistake I made was picking his call,I would have just ignored!
I told him how cruel he was to me and how he abused me emotionally and of course,he rained insults at me,telling me how bitter I was by still remembering what happened 4months ago,and people that are bitter rarely have good relationship,he said soo many cruel things to me..
I just had to warn him to loose my number and never contact me again!
Am not sure exactly why but I have problems with the word forgiveness here, I think Nat is meaning as a kind of acceptance or letting go, but this emotional distance she is talking about can’t be willed, it takes time. And I actually think a lot of emphasis on forgiveness can cause harm, especially when people feel judged for still feeling hurt, or shocked.
In my experience the best solution was improving other parts of my life that I had completely let go for years because of a traumatic relationship that I’m sure you can all relate to having experienced. But I could only do this when the man was out of my life, or I didn’t need/care so much because other things were working out.
I think sometimes the shock element is the hardest thing to let go of, the how could he have been so abusive, or cared so little? It’s difficult not to take on the little girl role here, where in our innocence we try to find logic in a difficult situation (and just like little children we think it’s always about us, when it really isn’t).
The ‘best’ way for me now to think about my ex is to see him as a ‘nutty guy’ someone a bit ridiculous (I mean he texted/called/visited after months, while he is still living with his other girlfriend … doing the old reset technique, though not lying too much, thank god and I was so proud that I could write jokey texts, teasing him a little). Maybe this is the forgiveness Nat is talking about, even though I wouldn’t use that word.
And I’m not sure how forgiveness can help stopping the repeat, I had a negative relationship after this long-term one with the dishonest in all ways man, where I was fast-forwarded by someone who ‘seemed so different’ … What I know is there is still plenty for me to work on by myself, even if I don’t feel so affected by my ex I’m still not sure I have the skills or confidence yet to avoid another abusive relationship.
Magpie, That’s exactly how I feel. I especially agree with needing time and improving other parts of your life, and that it can’t be done until you have time away. I’m getting back into Art and music and rediscovering the creative parts of me that were lost in a dodgey relationship with someone who didn’t really appreciate the very thing that made me, me. The feeling of shock and betrayal is still there but slowly diminishing, and the edge on the hurt has dulled . But it’s taken 7 months to get here . I’ve finally accepted that I need time to heal. And to not be embarrassed any more about how long I need . I laughed at your nutty guy reference . My ex suggested a friendly coffee catch up, but I knew I would only be able to ever view him As a clown sitting opposite me dribbling absolute shite out of his mouth , and that he would in fact just be a spectacle to stare at … Like a bad side show act. Reading Nat’s piece is good for thought as I’m
Keen to move on .
Thank you to both Nat and magpie
This is such a great article and I have found that forgiving is so not about that person. You need to forgive them for yourself, but also keep it moving! Don’t engage or give them the impression that although you don’t hate them, you also don’t need to deal with them anymore. I just came to the realization he was who he was and he was not for me. I didn’t care one way or another if he ever talked to me because I had reached this level of acceptance. Once I forgave him and myself, I was set free.
Thank you so much for this post Natalie, it was difficult for me to read but exactly what I needed.My unavailable ex who broke up with me 6 months ago (but I still have strong feelings for him and struggle with my own feelings of loneliness and missing him), reappeared in my life as I was making good progress and I even agreed to going on a holiday with him. I started feeling uncomfortable about it though whenever I remembered that this is not the beginning of something real and he’s not willing to commit to me. This post made a very interesting point that forgiveness and healing is linked to finding better boundaries and after reading it I cancelled our plans and told him I’m willing to see him for lunch and be friends but not do couply things like share a bed in a hotel. I don’t want to repeat past pain, and I don’t want to live in a wishful fantasy. I know this might not be a big deal for normal, assertive people, but for me setting this kind of boundary in spite of my feelings is something new.
One of my favourite quotes that made me lol was: “OK, this person let me down and won’t amend their behaviour so that I can be in less pain without having to take assertive boundaried action”. I love the emphasis of taking charge, and the options really are either outsource the responsibility for your happiness to the other person and what they do or won’t do, or accept things as they really are (instead of having unrealistic romantic ideas of things changing despite the evidence), decide what is OK or not with you and set boundaries. Thanks.
Lonelycat,
Good for you! Might I make another suggestion, don’t even go to lunch with him or try to be his friend. You need to go no contact so you can truly heal and move on. Otherwise you are on the right path to healing.
If you agree to lunch, he knows you’re still on the hook. It may be very difficult for you to continue keeping your boundaries since you already admit to still having strong feelings for him, especially if he turns on the charm.
I sometimes have trouble telling whether something I’m doing is a wall or a boundary. For ex, my boyfriend asked to move in with me and I told him I’d prefer to wait until we are engaged or married. He’s fine with this. I want to wait for a variety of reasons, I have lived alone happily for many years and don’t want to give up my space unless I’m getting married, I’m older and a bit old fashioned, etc. But if I’m honest with myself, it’s also partly because I’m afraid of being trapped in a dead end long term relationship if we don’t already have that commitment in place before we live together. I’m not sure how much the fear is driving the decision and how much of it is just my boundary that I’m upholding. I wonder if I haven’t fully forgiven myself for being in a 3 year relationship that was dead end, even though we didn’t live together, I’m afraid of “being back there again” so not living with him without a commitment is a way to protect myself against that. I’m not going to change my mind on it but sometimes it’s hard to know my motivation because lots of different emotions and thinking go into a decision and I want it to be coming from a boundaried place and not a place of fear but sometimes it’s hard to know.
I’ve discovered if I rush to forgive, I stunt my feelings. So now, I feel what I need to feel about what happened and when I’m ready, the change in perspective comes naturally as my anger (or whatever feelings I have about the person/situation) lessens. I don’t ruminate or fuel the feelings, just feel them and in time I’m able to forgive without forcing it.
I love all your advice Natalie! Thank you so much for encouraging articles because they’ve helped me through a very painful breakup and I am now able to move on and have respect for myself. To Natalie and the comments of the readers thank you so much!
Wow, this article was just what I was looking for! Presently, I am going through a divorce and am trying to sort out what I am really responsible for. I’ve always been the type to take on more than is reasonably due to me and as a consequence have much shame and guilt to deal with. And it always plays out just as described in this article!
Definitely some good stuff to think about. I will be working on trying to forgive myself because it’s even more apparent now the high cost of not doing so.
FirstTimeCommenter: After years of popping here and sharing your work with my circle of friends here in NYC, it’s time for the 21 Gun Salute to Natalie Lue. I am in awe of you — of your spirit, of your intellect, of your wisdom and compassion. I don’t even know you and I am proud of you woman! Your little girls are quite the lucky creatures.
jusybe you asked what the basic boundaries are. i think they ate: taking care of yourself, showing yourself love care respect. You are not doing those things if you allow someone to treat you badly. So you could agree to help a friend for example, as long as helping that friend did not impact on your ability to care for yourself. If to help out that friend you have to disrespect yourself or treat yourself badly in some way, then it shows you (and all the bad people!) that your boundaries are wrong/not there. That’s how I see it anyway 🙂
I read this before, and just read it again. Natalie, this is one of your best posts I have come across! Thank you.