A lingering question when we’ve been involved in an unavailable relationship and then they appear to commit elsewhere is, Were they actually emotionally unavailable or was it that we were incompatible? We often ponder this question when despite the fact that there are signs indicating the lack of ‘presence’ in the relationship and we have the evidence of our own unhappiness and frustration, it’s almost like we want to take it to a level where we can say, “Ha! That’s what was wrong! I wasn’t ________ enough or didn’t have ________”. Of course we’re forgetting in all of this that if we acknowledged our own true needs, expectations, desires, feelings, and opinions, we would recognise where we were being short-changed.
Unavailable relationships feature two people who are compatible in the emotional sense. Water seeks its own level.
If we continue in an involvement with a person who is coming from a level of awareness where they are avoiding their feelings, thoughts, commitment etc, we cannot claim to be emotionally available to them because they are not looking to have that level of a relationship. It’s easy to convince ourselves that we’re so much more available than they are but let’s think about it: if they’re holding back and subtly and directly creating negative consequences for vulnerability, are we really going to lay ourselves out?
In reality, it’s only when we look back that we recognise the ways in which we have edited and shaved ourselves down in order to stop the proverbial horse from bolting but also to protect us from being hurt.
In a wider sense, once we say that we want something else and diverging values become apparent and basically, we are losing ourselves and not getting our needs, expectations etc met within the relationship, we are then incompatible. So there’s synergy emotional unavailability wise but from a, Hey, let’s have a mutually fulfilling relationship with love, care, trust, respect, shared values plus the landmarks, commitment, intimacy, progression, balance and consistency position, there isn’t.
We get the relationship that fits us at the time.
If we are unavailable, lacking self- awareness, unable to take responsibility for ourselves, edging towards or prone to codependency, it doesn’t make sense for us to be with an emotionally available, ready for a big ‘ole grown-up relationship, partner. We are not conducting our life in a way that is conducive to that type of relationship experience.
We get the relationship that fits with us emotionally at the time in the sense that it’s going to show us a few things and grow us.
If we heed the lesson and truly absorb the positive insights so that we take better care of ourselves, our next relationship will not be a copy of the last, which is often the case for people who ride the unavailable relationship merry-go-round. If we don’t heed the lesson then it will just present itself in a more painful, in-your-face way until we finally do.
The reason why people who were unavailable and unable to commit in the way that we wanted when we were involved with them, commit (or appear to commit) to somebody else, is either 1) because in the totality of their relationships, they’ve run out of credits and feel that they have to make a big move in order to prove something to themselves and others or because 2) the relationships that they had between a previous loss and this current relationship acted almost as an in-betweener or bridge to recovering from the loss and moving forward. Unfortunately we may not be fully aware that we are doing this or even when we are, we make the mistake of seeing it as a call to prove how worthy we are.
If we get involved with somebody who is 1) emotionally unavailable in general or 2) recently out of another relationship or trauma or 3) reaching the totality of relationships where it’s pretty difficult to ignore some big booming lessons, the odds are that we and possibly another couple of people or so, will be the in-betweener before they seemingly ‘settle’.
This highlights where we can get too focused on what we think is so wrong (or right) with us and where we can fall into the trap of seeing a relationship as existing in a vacuum where time, space, and other relationships and experiences bear no relevance.
Yes, I know we can feel intensely about a person but we stepped into their lives at a certain point in time. They have history. They didn’t just fall out of the sky and come alive when we stepped into the frame. They are an individual entity in their own right and if we make everything about us and our worth, we neglect to recognise not only where they’re fitting into the bigger picture of our life and what we might stand to learn from this relationship, but also how they’ve got their own bigger picture and experiences that they need to learn and grow from too. We don’t always know the ins and outs of a person’s journey (even if we’re convinced that we do) and each person’s almost jigsaw puzzle is different.
If, for instance, we are one in a number of relationships that they’ve had where the same issues keep showing up, odds are that unless they’re living up their own bottom and unwilling to eventually grow their awareness, it’s going to hit them that they can’t keep blaming it on whatever they’ve been blaming it on and that they need to approach things differently. This means that if we go out with somebody who is typically unavailable and who is always not over one of their exes and is avoiding their feelings, we’re contributing to the totality of their experiences and at some point, they’re likely to reach a tipping point. It doesn’t mean that they’ll make a good decision when they do – plenty of people panic and knee-jerk in these situations if they haven’t done the work or they glorify somebody in the hopes that they’ll be their salvation and then discover that they still have to show up.
The way to avoid this is: At the point where it becomes apparent that 1) they’re unavailable, 2) you’re losing yourself or 3) they want different things and are clearly not ready for a relationship involving emotional maturity, get out. If you hang around trying to make a point or trying to make them change etc, you run the risk of decimating your self-esteem while rehabbing them for another relationship and an epiphany.
Call it unavailability, call it incompatibility but the net result is the same – it’s not going to work. It’s important to acknowledge this because if you keep looking back and hankering for a relationship that wasn’t working in the wider sense and keeping telling you that this relationship was “perfect” for you or that this was as good as it gets for you, or that you can only be with this person and that you’re wronged by it not working out, you’re making you unavailable for an available relationship and you’re limiting your options because you’re telling you that you’re in alignment with something that’s either unavailable or incompatible.
Your thoughts?
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Right on, Natalie, once again ! I am learning so much, and you have given me pause for thought, over and over .. I am in the sorting through and taking lots of time for me phase after a 10 year rollercoaster with the unavailable love who just wouldn`t let me go. Now I am ready, and thanks to you have tools to give me healthy perspective. Thank you !
moi,
your phrase..”unavailable love who just wouldn’t let me go..” resonates with me. It’s been almost 3yrs since the D&D and is 2 1/2 yrs for NC from me. The last thing I said to him was “you don’t get to do this anymore” I wish I could get through one day without thinking about him. I can not remember one good experience or thing about my relationship with him. The crazy making negative criticism pings my brain and heart too many times per day. I allowed myself to be reinvolved (while in a semi self imposed NC acquired a Masters Degree)and tried to refocus by brain….but was hoovered. Stupid, weak..me. I went back. Dumb Dumb Dumb….All in all, it was 5 years…not so much, eh? and a Degree while 2 years NC. I see now, which growth through this site(tks, NML) helps me clarify and justify. I just wish I could forget.
Emotional unavailability equals incompatibility in my case. My justification to those who said “you looked so happy together” was…yes, I loved him a lot; we just wanted different things…But that is vague, and I don’t air dirty laundry. I am sure my relationship fits into one of NML’s catagories. I was a passing time candidate. He will repeat his relationship behavior. Unfortunately because I feel crystal clear about who he is, where my heart and mind were at, what role I played in the disfunctionality of the relationship, and why…I do see how he has repeated his same relationship pattern while I am in self growth status. I was the passing time candidate while he disgarded her, and brought her back. (Geographically across the country)So, poor girl, is sucked into his craziness. I enjoy the posts by the intelligent writers on Baggage Reclaim. <3
PS…While in “Stuck” I was baffled by, why, if this person doe not like anything about me (while I was so stressed out about being perfect)would not just end relationship, or say we should go our separate ways. The not letting me go part is what I can not understand. Yes, I am an empathy. Teacher, helper, pleaser….want happiness and success. Never would I have thought…
suziq, I am taking a Master’s Degree abroad during NC too. We need to praise ourselves, like, how difficult is that?? Getting out an unavailable/abusive relationship and take a degree while being discarded and hoovered and basically sabotaged?? It’s like taking TWO DEGREES at the same time, the second in relationships! I just got the worst possible hoover right now during my dissertation time. We’re heroes 😀 I don’t care if he sabotages me, I am taking this freaking degree back home. I am ready to implement the only thing I was leaving out of NC, “delete before reading”. I got there, it’s time.
HowIGotOver, Thanks for your reply. It IS like taking TWO DEGREES!I have read sooo much on relationships to help my own recovery, did take time to just rediscover me. I also feel like a hero; very strong! I have a few sad days every now and then but I have almost 3 yrs. of NC. I have moved and changed nearly every aspect of my life, and it is all great. He moved in with another supply he had on hold..never skipped a beat. I know it was just another mask to display what a nice guy he is. Went through the smear campaign with his flying monkeys really into his story. I eliminated past hang outs and have serious caution with “mutual friends” although the intelligent folk can see the forest through the trees. I have yet to begin to date again, but have joined a Country Club, exercise there regularly, and am meeting some new friends. Also became an auxiliary member to an American Legion group. You’re right. It is time! Best wishes with your journey!
I understand! I too have done so many extra readings besides the uni work to help my recovery…That sometimes definitely affected the uni readings..Unfortunately I am only in the first year of NC since he discarded me (I’d rather say disappeared on me after 7 years) during my Master’s 1st year. He had replacement lined up already too (now he claims to be “haunted by his love for me while being with this woman .. yeah, sure). It’s cool to know I’m not alone. I’m glad to hear you’re moving on. I wish you all the best too.
Confused123,
I had no idea about the red flags until BR. I am turning 60 in October, and can look back on my 95% single life, with no such experiences as I encountered with an UM, AC, (add more acronyms)person with whom I had to cut, run & impose NC. Throughout my life, if things didn’t work out, or whatever, we went our separate ways. I think they were Aholes or Schmucks back in the day when a little drama came about. But this new breed of friend, boss, lover, date, or family member presents a whole new enlightenment to my world that previously was just single, professional, dating, with lots of friends. Through my readings, I have come to accept that I was fortunate; as these AC’s have been around forever, and I never encountered one so intimately. Now that I am aware of the red flags, and mostly the cookie cutter behaviors that others experienced, I reflect on friendships, and behaviors with more scrutiny. I love my revovery mode with optimism. This thread is my first comment/blog;although I have written volumes in journals! Thanks to all who share. I will never forget the feeling in my soul when I first read I was not alone, and he’s not that special. Wow. I took a bubble bath and began to know it will be Okay.
Suziq:
I had the exact scenario as you. I was a transition and since I was EU I could not read the signs to cut and run. Heck I did not even know the signs till I found BR. You’d think that his constant talk of his ex-wife and how he wanted to prove that he could get someone ‘better and prettier’ than her would be a glaring neon sign for me but no. When you are trying really hard to ‘people please’ you miss these sign however big. The redhead was classically more in the looks department that me so she’s a better trophy to parade in front of the ex (redhead, white, 5’9″ etc)than me so he put a ring on her finger I guess. Oh well. I grew (growing) and I am convinced he has not. He has taken zero time to reflect on anything post his divorce. So how could he. Anyhow, he’s her problem now.
So, i saw this and thought sometimes the universe throws things at you and you have to take heed. I mean if this wasn’t the universe giving me a slap on the face then i don’t know what else to say.
Sometimes in your gut you can tell you are repeating your story, but you try to connivence yourself otherwise. you have to know your boundaries and if someone falls short then don’t compromise. What have you got to lose. Nothing apart from self worth – if you value yourself worth then thats half the battle.
Short term gain for long term pain.
Ill go for long term gain for short term pain
I believe all men are emotionally unavailable because it suits their agenda to want to stick it in every woman they possibly can. Back when marriage was required before sex, where were these emotionally unavailable men? They weren’t afraid of commitment because that’s how they gained access to sex. Now their excuse to not get married or be involved is their emotions. Whatever. Let them go without the easy sex, and maybe they’d get interested in love again.
@LC – I meant to add this in my other post… I feel like you are really painting with broad strokes here and “arguing from the particular to the general”. I’m a man and I’m looking for much more than just sex. Hell, that’s easy to find! A solid and healthy relationship… not so easy it seems.
Well, I have the opposite problem. I married to build a life with someone and get a lover. My husband quit having sex with me shortly after the wedding. It has now been over a year and a half.
the only reason I haven’t left is because of finances and other complicated real estate issues which I hope will be worked in a few months. There are men out there who withhold sex as punishment or they simply have really low sex drive.
It is terrible to be with someone who treats you like a roommate and isn’t initiating anything, but then has no problem looking at porn to masturbate to. He isn’t gay. He is just very neglectful and selfish. I hate to say it, but after all these years, I am really starting to think that men suck. I have yet to meet a normal guy. Either they want sex incessantly or they don’t want it at all. What the hell.
And don’t even get me started on their inability to communicate. And their selfishness. And their lying.
LC, marriage was NEVER required before sex. Unwed mothers have been in existence since the beginning of time. You mean in a socially sanctioned way, I’m sure. And in socially sanctioned marriage, there has been infidelity. Benjamin Franklin was married, his wife lived in Philadelphia but he lived in France – for years – and was quite the ladies man. And Thomas Jefferson – we all know about his (alleged) love for the house slave Sally Hemings, before and after his wife died.
I do not understand why we idolize marriage. Why do we think the AC has “won” when he marries the woman he takes up with after us? If he has exorcised his demons on us, and changed for the better, marriage is still a tough proposition. It is more likely that he is giving his new woman the same shabby treatment he gave us, only she is trapped by law now.
Marriage is NOT the brass ring. Your life does not get magically better because you are married! Make sure you want marriage for what marriage really is, and not for some kind of status boost. A bad marriage is a high price to pay for validation.
This correlation is between sex and marriage is so skewed. Have you spoken to an anthropologist? The data does not prove your point at all, I am afraid. Moreover, this kind of stance puts all the pressure on a woman and I find it quite offensive to both women and men.
Marriage does not equal commitment. Plenty of unavailable men and women are married. They cheat as a way to escape having day to day emotional commitments to their spouses.
Culturally speaking, as Elgie illustrated here, even in the 50’s it was quite an acceptable idea that men married and expected their wives to be content with cooking, childbearing and a few other activities. A wife was not expected to fulfil men’s sexual fantasies, she was the keeper of the house and the mother of his children.
Thankfully, we are kind of past that. And we don’t have to use sex as a currency. Do whatever you want to, but don’t play games with other human beings. Do what is empowering you, not shaving you off (as per Nat’s words).
Own YOU instead of trying to control the other person. This was one of the biggest lessons of BR for me personally.
Bravo ElgieR. Bravo…I completely agree.
It isn’t just men. I am a gay woman, and yet so much of what the women here post about their relationships with men just sounds so familiar. Women can do everything that men can do in a relationship, except for getting you pregnant. A woman can be every bit as emotionally unavailable, unfaithful, fickle, untruthful and/or abusive as a man. Women are not exempt from overestimating their interest and desire to commit. Women can use you for sex and then toss you aside.
I do believe that there are good women, and good men out there. The first problem is dealing with my own emotional unavailability, and then sorting through potential partners to find that one who is available, healthy, has shared values and there’s mutual attraction and love. It seems like a numbers game sometimes, and given the small gay community in my area, the numbers really aren’t in my favor. I still may find someone, and if I don’t, I can have a good life as a single person.
You only need one Tanya Z. unless you are working in minus numbers in your area – you never know, however living for now and reality – ie being without a current partner – is always a better way to live – for yourself – and not for a prospective partner who may never materialize.
I am sorry you have been so hurt so badly LC that you feel the odds are stacked against you meeting any man who will respect and love you for who you are.
As Natalie’s post reminds us – what is YOUR part in attracting these kind of experiences with men in the first place? – you conveniently suggest withholding sex until marriage – hinting at some kind of commitment given at marriage point and spoken in a manner so as to suggest it is punishment for them. You blame men freely for a shallow relationship where women are not valued or respected beyond sex but you don’t attribute any responsibility for not valuing yourself better in the first place.
Start looking at what you can do to value and respect yourself and you may find others who also do this for you both Male and Female. Best Wishes…
LC:
Yes, previously men had to commit to get sex but believe me ( as a history major) when I say that visiting prostitutes post and pre marriage was very very common. Again, Post and pre marriage. Women were forced to accept it (anything to avoid a scandal)
Plus there are still culture out their that pre-marital sex is taboo (Indian , Mormon, etc) and arrange marriages are common. There are as many EU in these cultures as in western culture where dating and pre-marriage sex is the norm.
Well, once again a well done post that is perfect in timing.. I’m dealing with this same scenario right now. I decided to break while she works on her issues and I work on mine. Timing is everything.. I guess one will never know the exact reasons why someone is unavailable, because most likely they aren’t sure until they decide to “figure it out”. Of course, some people consciously choose to be unavailable I suppose. Anyway, the part I struggle with is “when to work for it” and “when to flush it”. I am a believer that relationships require work, I guess it’s really about knowing when the patient can be saved and when to call TOD. Still learning…
Confused guy
If the other party is unavailable, there’s nothing to fight for period. Game over. It’s like being in a running race where you will never hit the finish line, never come close to winning because the race director failed to give you a course map. You get 20 miles into the marathon, tired, sore, only to find yourself irretrievably lost. You have been either withheld information or that which has been given to you is false. Surely folk have a right to be unavailable but I truly question ones right to engage/pursue others, ostensibly for a relationship knowing damned well that you’re setting up the other party for a fall. Sadly, many folk will pursue knowing damned well they’re unavailable for attention, an ego stroke. Also some folk don’t understand that they cannot sustain a relationship due to trauma/brain injury/mental illness/circumstance. The sad thing, from the female perspective, is that each encounter with an unavailable makes us a bit more unavailable ourselves because we become harsh, unable to believe/trust another because we are tired of wasting time and emotional investment.
Agree Noquay.
Attrition. It grinds you down.
Noquay, love this metaphor with running and never quite hitting the finish line. Not even hitting the pit stops.
One of the best descriptions of a relationship with a EU person I’ve read. Thank you for sharing this.
Thank you Noquay for your comment. It hit home for me. I am harsh! I’ve had a lifetime starting from my mother, father, ex- husband down to a recent break up with EUM. I am emotionally bankrupt. Nothing left but the pieces, I am so empty and hurting.
Such a good metaphor, thank you Noquay! It describes my last relationship closely. From my experience, sometimes there are also conflicting instructions on the map, that you don’t realize until you’re halfway into the race. You look to see which way you need to run next, and it tells you to go north AND south at the same time. You think you’ve invested too much time and energy into this race to quit, so you just keep running in circles until you drop from exhaustion and are disqualified from the race.
Actually, back to Confused guy’s post, I did have that moment in my relationship when I was given conflicting directions, that I would’ve recognized if I’d have given it a bit more thought, instead of getting carried away by my emotions and feelings for the guy. The choice was up to me whether to end it or stay together and work on it. He was ok either way. I should’ve let him leave. Instead, I made the stupid decision to stay and work on the relationship. I failed to make the distinction between “minor issues worth working on” and “an unholy mess that can never work”. After that it all went downhill pretty fast, because I was being the obedient girlfriend, trying to run in both directions like I was told. Things got very dysfunctional very quickly.
I, too, am a firm believer that relationships require work – I’d just never before been in one that was doomed from the start and no amount of work would’ve saved it. So I did not recognize it as one even as I was in the middle of it.
Confused guy – you have to BOTH be in any relationship in order to work at it AND have some possibility of it working. Anything else is futile – on a break?! – everyone knows that is code for – not in relationship but you can’t quite admit it out loud.
Hint – if you are struggling to work out whether you are in relationship or not – YOU AREN’T.
There is no confusion when you have a relationship – and this just have to work at it!…hint – if your old belief’s have not got you where you want to be ie in a relationship – perhaps its time to jettison the belief that doesn’t work and try something new – why use the same strategy over and over again when it clearly hasn’t worked before? Ever heard about banging your head against a brick wall?
Or was that what you were taught in your early family relationships – in order to validate and support people not actually entering into relationships?
Find a model person in your past who has not made you work for it – and this is the feeling you are looking for in a true romantic relationship.
Thank you all for the comments..
@noquay – that is a great metaphor and covers about how I feel. I couldn’t imagine going through something like that for years and years as some have done.
@Oona – I’m afraid you are right on. If someone tells you that they don’t want the responsibility of being a GF because they are afraid they will fail at it then that’s got to be a sign, right? I get what you’re saying…If you have to ask the question, then you probably already know the answer.
Such good insight to be had on this site!
This article is right on point in my opinion. If we continue to put up with behaviors that signal emotional unavailability (my ex even told me that both his grown daughter and ex-wife had called him emotionally unavailable), we gradually will lose sight of what is important to us. I know I did, as I stuffed down my own feelings of love and enthusiasm for the relationship when I repeatedly did not get those in return. I found myself angry and frustrated so often that I became dissatisfied with my reactions to him. I could not reconcile his inability to commit to the relationship in the true sense, with his gestures of caring and urging me to stay in it when I suggested we part ways. In my heart I knew we were not compatible in how we viewed relationships (after two plus years of trying), but he always pulled me back, until someone else tickled his fancy and he asked to “take a break”. Is he with her still? I don’t know. If so, I suspect she gets no better than I did, but simply has different needs (financial security, etc.) that he can satisfy without giving emotionally. I did not need from him those things he could provide easily…I needed his passion, intimacy, etc. I am proud to say that after his request for a break, I never asked him to reconsider as I knew that the situation was not working for me or for him. Since he was recently divorced when we met, I guess I was the in-betweener. Perhaps he is different with her, and I fulfilled the role of helping his rehabilitation. Great article and perspective, Natalie.
The theme of emotional unavailability launched my quest to snap out of it and get my own act together. I got tired of seeking completion in someone besides myself.
I was picking out lovers who were not available but they sure found me an amusing toy for a while. When it got real, they would start the distancing games.
No more of that. I know now I am worth more and I know better how to nurture myself, steer clear of EUs and just relax.
At age 62, I realize I may never meet The Right One. So, just in case, I plan to be my own Right One. I trust the universe, the laws of attraction and you, Natalie, to help propel me forward.
I am making new friends and I feel good.
Karen,
Good for you! I’m a few years older than you and have been on my own for 20+ years. This past year I have had an attempt by a narcissist who I believe gravely misjudged his powers. 🙂
Finally, just got out of it and have some hard won lessons to take away from it. I can’t say whether it was good or bad. I suffered, cried, laughed and learned. It was what it was and I have filled a few pages in my diary with the beginnings of an interesting novel if I choose to go there.
Good for you Karen! I am 60, just two days ago ending 15 yrs with an EUM. I am so broken, tired of beating that dead horse. Good luck!
Oh, wow! I so needed this today. I’ve done so much working moving out of chasing emotionally unavailable men to the point where I’m no long afraid of men who truly are available. And yet, I had a slip up two weeks ago. Two weeks of that gut feeling telling me “NO GO” and I’m moving on, thank God, but it was such a scary feeling. He emails me online, recently divorced a couple months, ready to date, wants to have fun, open to something more, blah, blah, blah. You know the story. Gets me warm and fuzzy and triggers my rescue-mode and I (dumb) agree to a date. End of date my gut is feeling that awful feeling (you know what I’m talking about) and yet I convince (delude) myself that he’s got so many nice (fantasy) qualities. I’ve built him up to fantasyland of the man he “could be” because it’s not enough to accept the facts before me. I’m so grateful to have found you last year, because all of your blog posts came crashing down on me with a “what were you thinking” moment. And I had clarity. Stop. Just. Stop. That’s when I realized all the hard work I’d done, including professional counseling, had worked. I may have had a slip-up, but I was able to wrench my head and heart right on out of its grip. And best of all, I’m about 100 pages into Mr. Unavailable and the Fall Back Girl. It is hands down as much help to me so far as the therapy I had. I’m worth more. I deserve more. I am more. I want more. I need more. I am most definitely on the way to finding an emotionally available, like-minded man, who feels the same way. It’s a journey, and I can’t wait to tell him about you, your posts, your wise counsel, and my life story. It’ll all be SO worth it. Slip ups and all. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart Natalie.
Lynn,
I liked your comments and your insight. I noticed for me as soon as I decided, no more. I was ejected from the ‘fun house’ and in the next 10 days I met several assorted men and woman who all treated me with kindness, care,respect, and dignity. What a blessing.
PPS….I hope you come to Florida when in US.
Natalie, thanks for this post. I just lost all I’ve typed so far and will just put it on my diary. Suffice it to say. it was hard and I’ve just been ejected from this fun (not so fun)house experience back into my normal, safe, happy and wonderful world. I’m grateful for all I learned and thank your for all your insights. Best of luck to all and try to see the lessons you can learn from your experiences.
LC don’t tar men with all the same brush. There are unavailable women too who do the same.
Anyway to the topic at hand… I agree. My last person was just not available and we were incompatible and I refused to be a part of it. Gladly.
There’s a 3rd reason why they appear to commit: they’re faking it, with another equally unavailable delusional person.
wow… I did this. I rationalized this in the following way. “If I only…” Took months to get it through my head that (she) wasn’t available; and that she was in transition from me to others yet unknown, even to her. Didn’t matter how good a person I was. In fact, being a good man actually made it harder for her because it took away the excuse she needed to justify to the outsiders why she had to leave. The lesson is that you cannot fix the other. You can and must get out. Unavailability is a gut feeling, a known, known. Regardless of how we seek to justify remaining in it, we can stay because eventually they will leave and you will lose a large part of you. Understand what it is and let-it-go.
I’m 47 years old and my loving, healthy, long term relationships were back when I was in my 20s and early 30s. Since then it has been one EU after another; no more than a fling, and never a relationship [and all bringing with them their own unique baggage]. The current EU I thought was so compatible in personality, attraction [rare to find as you get older], interests and lifestyle. However, after three months he said he “couldn’t give me what I want” [which is when I found Baggage Reclaim] and I left and maintained NC for some time, only to be so sad and lonely that in a weak moment I made contact. We’ve been seeing each other again and I had stopped reading Natalie’s wise words. However this came into my inbox today and I couldn’t ignore it. It’s made me feel stronger again and I’m vowing to learn once and for all. I need to also accept I may never meet Mr Right but as Karen says, I may just have to [sadly] be my own Right One.
Do you think this is relevant only for romantic relationships? I’m struggling in my relationship with my parents and I feel emotional unavailability is one of the issues causing problems.
Yes, Alie, most of our “stuff” with relationships stems waaaaay back to our first model of relationship stuff with our parents.
Have you ever heard of sex and love addiction, abandonment,neglect, etc?
Thanks for the reply Starr. I understand what you mean – the source of issues in current romantic relationships can have its roots in early relationships. But what about when the problem relationship is the relationship with our parents?
The advice Nat gives is:
“The way to avoid this is: At the point where it becomes apparent that 1) they’re unavailable, 2) you’re losing yourself or 3) they want different things and are clearly not ready for a relationship involving emotional maturity, get out.”
Is the advice the same when the relationship in question is that with my parents? Can I get out?
Yes I had to and I have done it ALie – its obviously not something to be taken lightly but after years and years of emotional abuse that finally led to physical abuse – I finally became fully aware AND able to act on it.
After transferring the repeated patterns into adulthood, I had learned as a child to survive emotionally abusive, scapegoating and neglectful parents onto romantic relationships and my friendships – I became aware when things got so bad I was physically attacked by my ‘lover’, was completely isolated and had a smear campaign run against me virtually involving the whole village and nearby town, in order to help get me evicted and lose me work consistently – to break me once and for all.
I ended up in hospital for two months, I couldn’t walk for 11 months after and had a number of painful operations to put things right – 8 so far. I have a colostomy now, have probably lost my opportunity to have children and my own family, time wise and so I guess you could say it was a wake up call? – only not quite – learning to stay awake however has taken a further three years unravelling what happened and re connecting myself to the present – watching how I was supported or not supported by all the people I had previously trusted people who were unworthy – even though I knew something was going on every time.
I had to get through the following financial, emotional and health melt down after hospital coming to terms with what had happened to me physically and emotionally or what I feel I allowed to happen to me – that’s when the real awareness started to be revealed. It took a few years before I could link what my ex’s had done with how my parents and family treated me – then came the disbelief – we say its a shock but I really think its extreme grief – loss of the person we thought we were, the person they were AND the family we had conned ourselves into believing we belonged to – all at once – if only we were better at this or that.
I got resistance from family members in the beginning but less than I was prepared for – ambush visits from family that live 200 miles away with no warning, elderly relatives stepping in – telling me off like a naughty little girl in public and backing my parents up when they never actually had much to do with our family all my life and it was them who were neglectful relations in reality – which ironically they were accusing me of being etc…other relations being ambiguous (nasty little secret messages that may or may not have been but left conveniently open ended so I would be confused again) at weddings after I had gone to alot of effort while ill to get there – I was in pain due to not being able to take painkillers and drive at the same time etc…before I finally saw gradually last year – the wood for the trees.
I had to contact police to find out my right s about harassment due to being basically repeatedly threatened by my mother or father on her behalf to comply with her wishes or else – basically allow her to continue to abuse and break all boundaries or else…Only I’ve been through my mother playing psychological games all my life and I was awake and had had it – no one told me to have enough or encouraged me to have enough – I just finally had it – and that was the last time I read a text from her, contacted her, went to a family funeral or wedding or birth etc… I made a choice and I chose me and I went non contact completely.
I didn’t explain it or try pleading or setting any more boundaries – I was done – and I knew for my own well being that contact with her or anyone in my family is simply no good for me – at the end of the day I didn’t nearly die and do all this hard work putting myself back together again, healing, in order for the whole thing to start up again – no – now its my life and I’m not going down that road ever again.
I would say to you – be wary of thinking you don’t have a choice – you ALWAYS have a choice – EVEN AND ESPECIALLY when you think you don’t have one – you do.
Think – what is it you need? and what can you do to achieve it? – ignore their needs and any threats even if implied due to their own past behaviour or past threats towards you – take the focus off them and put it back onto you and keep doing it – it takes a while to get the hang off when you’ve never been used to it before.
I am growing my life now – its funny once I finally faced up to my fear of being completely alone and was completely – having no family, friends or anyone and accepted that was how it was and it wasn’t going to change no matter what cartwheels I learned to do = I finally started doing things for myself that really addressed what my needs truly were – bringing me a real joy for life for the first time. I wouldn’t say its perfect and sometimes its still a bumpy road but I feel much better without them and have motivated myself much more to only accept people into my life – to stay – who are really and truly treating me well – who genuinely make me feel a good person – and go out of their way to do so and get the best out of me…
I wish this for you and others on here also – a warning! – there is no way you can ever tolerate or turn a blind eye to any abuse – any – no matter who they are or how related to you they may be – in fact its MORE important to never tolerate it – its like a disease – if you ignore the signs it and done’t act fast it will come back to bite you in the backside – especially the closer related to them you are.
Oona, thank you so so much for replying. I have to be very clear – there is no physical abuse going on whatsoever. To suggest otherwise would be completely untrue.
Your story is very remarkable and I applaud the advances you’ve made. What you say about people treating you well and genuinely making me feel a good person rings very true with me.
I imagine my gripes would be seen as very small fry here were I to detail them. Mine is a communication and understanding issue. Nat’s article about “You’re not going to crazy make me” is the perfect summary of what it is like trying to communicate with them.
My new wonderful partner has been helping me to stand up for myself a bit more. My parents have an style of communication that implies criticism and disapproval, so I have a highly sensitive antenna that detects criticism and disapproval where it does not exist. I will take on anybody’s toxic emotions assuming I’ve done something wrong but I just don’t know it.
The more frustrated I got with my communications with my parents, the more my partner would question whether I was taking the right approach. So I attempted standing up to them. It’s not gone well. I’ve been shut back in my box by them and told my concerns have no legitimacy. But it leaves me in the invidious position of not knowing what to do. Each option I have seems to be worse than the other. No Contact seems a bit step to take but there is going to be emotional distance (again – it’s not the first time, though the mechanisms for getting here have been very different) for the purposes of self-protection.
Thanks again.
‘….my gripes would be seen as very small fry’….. And this is the key to it all AliE.
The thing is – exactly when do you become yourself? Exactly when do YOU get to decide what IS small fry and what isn’t?
Yes they may be small fry problems to someone ELSE (in THEIR opinion) but to you – knowing the full context having lived it – it isn’t small fry – it matters to YOU. If you don’t feel YOUR issues are important – then who will?
Ask yourself this – has ignoring your small fry problem resolves the issue? Or created further problems – less obvious for longer and more damaging ultimately?
Being told your problem is non existant or small in reality will do what to someone? INVALIDATE them, INVALIDATE their needs and is akin to Gaslighting.
Only YOU can decide what is important and an issue for you – as only YOU walk in your shoes.
For example someone visiting a doctor with an ingrown toenail may be a smaller problem to the doctor, compared to a person who has an abscess in their leg the size of an orange leading to septicemia – which is life threatening. But this does not mean they don’t BOTH need help to resolve the issues they are dealing with – not favouring one over the other and ignoring the ‘smaller’ one. If the ingrown toenail is continuously ignored this WILL become seriously infected over time and cause the exact same infection issues that the person with an apparently life threatening problem had.
Anyone gaslighting you is essentially saying they not only don’t agree with you but are not prepared to take responsibility for not agreeing – they are leaving the responsibility for the whole creation of the problem – in your lap entirely. This isn’t just invalidating this is crazymaking behaviour. Please check out Natalies crazymaking posts in the above older posts list.
Some parents and husbands simply don’t want us to ever get to the point where we decide for ourselves what is important to us and what isn’t because it means a lack of power and control for them ultimately.
People may not agree with you and may be nasty about you voicing yourself suddenly – so do not expect a dream reply to your voicing – I certainly didn’t – but do it anyway because if you don’t – just when do you get to be yourself exactly? – in the next life that you may or may not get?
The good thing about truly voicing who you are for real is that sometimes there are some people who do genuinely care – who will fulfill that ideal answer to you – and actually demonstrate they care and VALIDATE you even if they don’t agree. Without voicing yourself that will rarely be able to happen.
You hit the nail right on the head ad usual.
Thank you for your continued insights, and helping me further and further down the road to self-realization bit by bit !
I am really tired of being the stop gap, passing time candidate, and backup plan. Last week I spoke with a longterm platonic male friend who let me know he was flying in for a few days to visit family. Our friendship goes back over 20 years and more often than not we get together for lunch or drinks when he visits, which at MOST is once a year. Anyhow after our last conversation, we agreed, over the phone, that Friday would be a good day to get together, provided I could rearrange my schedule and take the day off from work. I did, then confirmed with him, by text the other day, only to be told he has other plans Friday. It’s not catastrophic by any means, but it’s ANNOYING. I did not respond, but I am a little disappointed and annoyed.
In the bigger picture, I know I don’t want to put effort into being that transitional stopgap. I am still trying to recover, 14 months later. I am MORE aware of EU warning signs now, although I was in pretty good shape back then. The big things I’ve learned are future faking and lazy communication. Discussion of warm weather plans seemed *normal* during the frigid winter months. How could I know that I would never spend time with him at the lake or dine on the bay? Why would I think he was faking when he reiterated this plan as we drove by this beautiful place just hours before he dismissed me forever from his life? I didn’t know it was fake until the end. Someone who future fakes cannot be true to a relationship.
So I won’t let this one day on Friday mean to much, but it has stirred up those feelings of the worst disappointment of my life, which have never totally subsided. My time off is precious, and last year I’d saved it all, per his request, so we could vacation together. But that was fake. And this week I rearranged and took the day off to meet a friend, who obviously didn’t think enough to tell me he’d made alternate plans.
So I am learning to not look forward to anything involving plans with another person. Even if it’s promised, suggested, offered, implied, or sincerely discussed. Unless it’s live-action happening at the moment, plans can be canceled, forgotten, sabotaged, and ignored. What I experienced last year as the most cruel treatment ever, has destroyed my ability to trust in the future. And with these little setbacks, it is so hard NOT to let it eat away at my self-worth.
I know tomorrow’s small disappointment is causing me to feel the totality of last year’s pain. As I try to find small pockets of happiness by doing non-dating activities, I am still feeling like the stopgap and backup plan. And THAT feeling is incompatible with what I want long-term.
Say something,
Yes, I too have had problems of the dissappearing plans. Now what I do especially if it involves a bit of travel or my rearangement of schedule, is to have a Plan B. I plan a fun thing for myself such that sometimes I have hoped Plan A was cancelled because I was excited about Plan B. Just taking care of number one here!
Wow, Say Something. Again you sell yourself short. For this only-see-him-once-a-year guy, you were willing to burn one of your precious vacation days? Did it ever cross your mind to ask him to make a plan for getting together where it did not cost you a vacation day? I don’t think it did. You wanted to be the friend. You wanted validation that you have him as a friend, so yes, I’ll take a day off for you.
But he didn’t value that, did he. They never value people who don’t value themselves. He would have been more impressed with you if you said “No, I won’t take a vaca day, I got my own plans for those. When else can we meet?” Now, THAT’S a person who has her own back.
See what trying to please brought you? No day with a “friend”, a burnt vaca day, and a flood of memories of how you did this before with someone else who did not value you.
It’s tough to break the cycle, but you got to work on putting yourself first. All the time. In little ways. It’s a muscle that needs to be exercised.
Wow Elgie R, you are so spot on. Your advice applies to everyone and a great reminder of how we need to not play into being treated badly. The power of no. Having enough self esteem to not go that extra mile for someone who has not done it for you. It’s so easy to put ourselves out in order to be nice to others when we don’t realize being nice only earns us disrespect half the time. I always fall back to that “be a nice girl” behavior when I don’t think about it, and it usually screws me up in the end. The more I stand up for myself, the better I get treated in my real life and it’s still hard to do. It’s like I have to be ever vigilant against my nice girl impulses. But it’s worth doing. so thanks for the reminder!
Yes Elgie,
I wasted a vacation day. He is only here for 3 days and last time I did not make special arrangements due to not enough notice. But this time I had enough time. I know his schedule is tight when in town, so most likely he overbooked. Like I said, not catastrophic, just annoying. We get together so infrequently and he doesn’t have a history of blowing me off. It does not compare to the BGE debacle, but it’s just general disappointment of friends. My sister pulls this crap constantly. I haven’t seen her in over 6 months and I’ve stopped trying. Two years ago a good friend canceled big plans on me the day before an event in which I’d taken a day and spent $150. I stopped asking her to attend events with me. So I DO often adjust my behavior when I get these responses. It just seems that disappointment is frequent and there is much inconsideration. Of course, these are all people busy in relationships, but why plan with me just to cancel? I am referring to long time friends. NOT unavailable, incompatible people, just rude and inconsiderate. I guess it just frustrates me because I feel like I can’t count on people.
Say Something, I recognize your situation because I’ve lived it. Seems like others are so willing to make you the last consideration on their totem pole. You excuse them with your thinking their time is more valuable and you must be more flexible because they are in relationships. Again, discounting yourself because you aren’t in a relationship.
These people view you as a doormat. Oh, she’ll be OK if I cancel at the last minute…no matter.
The friend – why didn’t he blow somebody else’s plans off, and not yours. The $150 loss you endured – did that friend who begged off also lose out on $150? Probably not, right?
You have a history of being OK with being let down. That is a people-pleaser life. No one ever expects that you will put yourself first. Time to flip that script.
It’s hard to remember to think of yourself first. I got rope-a-doped by a Driver’s License clerk this year. You take number tickets and wait to be autocalled up for a snapshot. When my number was called, I approached the desk only to be waylaid and told to wait. Another customer had been overlooked, so the woman taking pictures made a decision that the overlooked customer would take my slot and sit with the young male attendant for a snapshot, and she would do me when she finished her current customer. No biggie, right?..so I thought. I waited and let the woman take me and she produced the ugliest snapshot she could make. I look like a bobblehead. She made a point of not capturing the pretty blouse I had worn for the picture. I came home and compared it to previous licenses and saw that she cut me off at the neck, while the other pictures were a full shoulder shot. Then it hit me that her plan had been to produce unattractive pictures for the women. I’d seen a young woman ahead of me having difficulties with her, but I paid it no heed. I also saw the female attendant flirted with all the males. If I had my back and was not reflexively eager to please, I would’ve had said “No. I’m number 96 and the automatic numbering system is calling #96. I did not miss my turn. Number 94 missed HIS turn, so that gentlemen will wait for you to finish.” SO for the next four years I am living with this ugly picture.
But I learned from that. I learned how reflexively passively polite I am. I also learned that having my own back does not mean I am rude. It means I am OK with taking care of myself first. I give myself permission to do that.
Small battles. Small wins. Just recently at the gym, I walked in to see a line of people at the front desk. The backup was caused by some loud lady in a dispute with the desk clerk, and that lady was blocking the swipe-in mechanism. I said to the woman in front of me, “Are you swiping in?” She said “I’m waiting to get to the machine”. I walked past her, said excuse me to the lady who was blocking the mechanism, the lady stepped to the side and let me swipe. Then the people who had been waiting started swiping in. I felt a little “odd” to have bypassed everyone and do my own thing, but I saw no need to wait, and it worked out. Put myself first.
Say Something, I totally agree with Elgie. Your thinking is automatic and automatically you think it’s okay if you are NOT that important to someone who is obviously quite important to you. In other words, you’re making someone a priority while they treat you like an option.
I have definitely been in that spot for many years. I still sometimes. But maybe a few times a year. Once you learn how awesome you feel when you put YOURSELF first, you’ll get addicted to feeling this awesome 🙂 And no, it’s not the selfish kind of putting yourself first. Just like in many things, we cannot give out of place of scarcity. We should only give out of generosity and when our own emotional barns are full and we have extra to share. Otherwise, when the person inevitably does not reciprocate, we feel resentful and cheated.
Besides, he’s a man. Let him accomodate you. And if he cannot – then you have important data you have to process and FACE the TRUTH: he has other priorities. So he shouldn’t be your priority either.
I find that contrary to my own internal fear, standing up and thinking of myself first, actually makes me very calm (vs this agitated hungry state) and while I stopped hanging out with the majority of my old acquaintances, new and healthier people came into my life.
I need a big Like button!
Why – that was a poetic truth. The AC turned up at my house after I requested that we didn’t see each other. I was SO agitated until I calmly and clearly said no, do not do it agin and you have lost further access to me because of it. The calm was… almost indescribeable, and now I am addicted too!
Hi Elgie,
Thank you for your response. Years ago I recognized that I was prone to being a people pleaser. Over the years I have seriously modified my behavior, but the sting of disappointment remains. My friend that canceled event plans with me one day prior, well she cited that she’d only agreed to go out of pleasing me, but as the day grew closer she realized she would not enjoy the event so backed out.
More accurately I am prone to discounting myself now than trying to please like I used to. Sure, I like to have a life that includes other people, but I do often experience being blown off. Now I just accept it and do not try to manage it. Like MJ has mentioned, sometimes it can be so difficult just to have coffee or lunch with a real human. So I thought I’d focus on non-dating socializing and I feel like I don’t want to put too much effort here right now. I can sit outside, drink coffee, and read BR. I guess many of my friends are not compatible with my single lifestyle. I have to find more alone things to do, though except for 5-6 months last year, I’ve done significant alone stuff for years.
Because I’ve done so much alone stuff I KNOW that I need more. I am incompatible with an alone lifestyle. Does that make me incompatible with myself? I have several activities that involve small groups and team sports, but after 1-2 hours I still have alone all day and night. I guess it’s getting the best of me because I know I want so much more. On paper it would appear I have a full, well-rounded, satisfying life. I should have nothing to feel sad about if I look at my life on paper. In this dimension, all is well. I don’t want a paper life.
I like your move to the front of the line story, and that sounds exactly like something I would do as well, and probably have. Does using the men’s room because I don’t feel like waiting in the line count? 🙂 Also, I want to clarify that I don’t have an aversion to being alone. I just don’t want to be alone forever. I would like to have someone to count on and yes, I realize that I have to be the primary one. I’ve been that my whole life. Do I have unrealustic, incompatible impossible to achieve wants? Sometimes I tell myself ‘stop thinking you deserve to meet someone that might really like you’ because I don’t DESERVE to have that. DESERVING is selfish and entitled thinking. So I think about how to positively reframe that thought. Still thinking.
yea, I know what you mean.
Last year was terrible for me, a whole slew of unpleasant and damaging events crowded together along with painful medical treatments. And ending a ten year relationship.
No one, not my family or my friends called me on Christmas. They all knew I was too sick to attend anything, and home alone, but no one even picked up the phone to wish me well. It hurts.
To feel as if you cannot count on people when you are sick is the lowest of low…now I know not to expect anything. And when I am finally well I hope to make some new friends who at least know the Golden Rule, haha
Shano – yep I had no phone calls on xmas day either and halleluyah!!!! – its a shocking and horrible epiphany to realise finally that those that should care for you don’t – but once you’ve learned it and accepted it – you can then work out what you really want and how you can get it for real for yourself – elsewhere – rather than wasting your time hanging around waiting for the family crumbs on the end of a line.
I love Christmas now – whether ill or not and know I look after myself a whole lot better than they looked after me anyway – and the bonus is there is no feeling of being let down anymore, no stress and you don’t have to be grateful to people who don’t really want to help anyways – which is a horrible feeling also – I even buy presents and sign them from them weeks before – saving the money I would have spent on them and spending it on myself – its so good who cares if its not how I’m supposed to do it – they’ve never lived in my family.
I also have the number of a nursing agency for if I need to hire someone for a couple of days – expensive but actually more caring and helps me get on my feet quicker – without the emotional abuse – people are actually keen to see you well for the right reasons.
Hope you get well soon…
Hi Say Something… I can relate to the experience you’re describing but I see it differently. I noticed that a set of friends was doing this too – setting things up (often after much difficulty) and then breaking plans. What I determined was, these were friends from a time and place in my life and they were transitioning away. We were drifting apart and trying to make these plans was forcing something that wasn’t there anymore. When I stopped making time for them, newer friends who are better suited to my values/priorities came into view, filled my schedule. It’s been a palpable shift – I no longer expect plans to be broken because the friendships I am nurturing are with people who are more like me. It’s possible that this is a sign to move on from those folks, a signal that they don’t fit your new way of thinking and valuing yourself – and to focus more on people who treat you in the new way you’re treating yourself: with respect.
Michelle (and group),
I’ve recognized for some time now that I don’t fit in nicely/easily with some of my friends. Re. Out-of-town friend… I am OK with the non-plan, just frustrated. And I DID find some other things to do on my day off.
Like Pauline comments below, I think I’m incompatible with 95% of people (on a deeper level). I can ‘get along’ with almost all people.
I also realize that geographically, I face serious limitations with meeting people. Not to the extent of Noquay, but it was a driving factor for attempting online dating. I’ve been offline for over a month now. For the next few years, I cannot make any move, but I can plan and be ready for when that time comes. I don’t know where I’d choose to relocate, though I would’ve moved for BGE.
Over the past few years I’ve found myself drifting away from casual friends, for reasons you’ve mentioned above. Once I stopped accommodating my sister’s schedule, we’ve now ceased communication. Since Christmas, we’ve had one five minute conversation over the phone… because it was about HER. maybe 3-4 brief texts, but nothing more. I am saddened that at I time when I’ve really wanted her support, the only way to get her attention is to work for it and then wait for her to let me know what my timeframe for discussion is. Of course, she has always made it clear that she has so many other things that take priority (work, concerts, dinner parties, travel…) that sometimes her responses came days later, or she’d call me in a week… So I stopped trying, seven months ago, because the ‘work’ was just adding to my already existing sense of rejection. For months I’ve been down to a one-friend support system, and she’s long distance, but she ‘gets’ me.
What I’ve noticed is, that in the 14 months since the BGE debacle, that most of my family and those I called friends were not people I could truly count on when I really, really needed support and understanding. Are they all just too EU, incompatible with me, or am I just too needy? The trifecta effect of ‘don’t count on the guy, don’t count on family members, and don’t count on friends’ has hit hard; hardest with the guy. It reinforces not asking for anything from other people. I feel like I’ve been swatted away, with a smile, and “you’ll be fine. Just do happy things for yourself. I’m really busy and happy so go be happy and let me know when you’re fixed.”
I have always relied primarily on myself. I realize nobody else can ‘fix’ me, but I was never ‘broken’ like this before either. This state of ‘broken’ and the belief that I may never be * IT* for anyone feels harsh. When I’ve said that I thought I checked all his boxes/ requirements/ qualities that he was looking for compatibility-wise except for ONE unknown thing, I guess this ‘thing’ was being ‘IT’.
I completely connect to what Why wrote, “I don’t believe it for a second that, let’s say, a man in his 40’s has never heard that giving conflicting messages to a woman is wrong and he’s being dishonest.” And Noquay’s finish line comparison hit me hard- “You have been either withheld information or that which has been given to you is false. Surely folk have a right to be unavailable but I truly question ones right to engage/pursue others, ostensibly for a relationship knowing damned well that you’re setting up the other party for a fall.” Trying to recover from this damage is painful. I keep wondering how long it should continue to hurt and if this much pain is normal.
I feel really similar Say Something! I recently broke up with a guy. Because he wasn’t prioritizing me. Would say one thing then do another. Would cancel on me regularly etc…
Going through the pain of walking away from him was hard enough. But realizing NONE of my friends had time for me during or lately, and my sis basically told me I’m too needy and it was always me reaching out to her. So I finally got angry and told her I was upset. We haven’t spoken much since. It was her Birthday last weekend. I made the effort to drive an hour to her party. Play nice with everybody. Pretend it was all good for her. Because if I tried to bring anything up. She would just accuse me of being needy again. I used to think she was on my side completely and I could talk to her about anything, anytime I needed. But no. Shes caught up in her own world, with her husband and superficial friends.
The ONLY person I have in my world is my mum right now. I’m really grateful for her, but it sucks not to have anyone my own age. I’ve had to move away from so many users and people who don’t really care about me. I felt so lonely around them. But I feel so lonely without anyone either. I’m also pretty isolated where I live. Having to travel at least half an hour to be anywhere.
I hope I get some real friends soon. But I also hope they never speculate on why I didn’t have any before them.
So_True,
The feeling of “I am ALONE in this world” hurts. Good for you, recognizing that you weren’t a priority and being able to walk. You are on the right trail!
HI Say Something,
Have missed our virtual chats. I can so relate to what you have said in your post. People in my life have vanished. This has been a tough summer. Traveling alone is not my cup of tea. I m doing the best I can to enjoy myself. But the quality of my life has just shifted. I am doubting I will ever feel as great as I did before. It is TOUGH.
You said:
I have always relied primarily on myself. I realize nobody else can ‘fix’ me, but I was never ‘broken’ like this before either.
I feel the EXACT same way. As if trying to heal from this wasn’t enough I have more life challenges to handle now. Not loving any of this. I know this is life but I was hoping for a bit of a reprieve.
How do we turn things around? I feel the way you do. When does the hurt end? I know something is really wrong. The ruminating has stopped, but I cant find joy in simple things I use to love -like shopping for shoes. Even the love I have for traveling is not the same. I m trying to enjoy all the places I am seeing this summer but it is tough seeing so many couples together. At this point if I had one new friend that would be great.
It is so important to have these connections with other people. I would love to have the real life support I have had from you on BR. I guess it just takes time to cultivate these type of friendships.
I can tell you that the pain you are describing is normal. I have ask myself the same question- How long should it continue to hurt? The healing and grieving process is brutal. One minute things seem ok and then I find myself in a valley. Let’s just say there have been no magnificent days. Those are the types of days I was use to for years. That is what I yearn for. Surely this cant last FOREVER. Can it? Say Something I wish I had an end date on this for us both.
Have been wondering how things are going for you. Sorry to hear about your friend wasting one of your vacation days.
HUGS,
MJ
MJ,
I have missed you! While you’ve been out seeing the world I’ve wondered if you’ve been enjoying your travels. I’m still cleaning out my house, recycle, donate, trash… I want to be set to welcome change. I want to rid myself of as much physical chaos as possible, and hope that I can focus on internal chaos, or purge it.
I still cry, daily, and agree that in the end EU/incompatible both signal the wrong guy. And I also wonder, if I didn’t know that ‘other’ part of him, what if that’s the even better part and why did he keep that part of himself FROM me? Yes, just because he DID and I shouldn’t CARE about why or even wonder, but I DO anyhow.
I felt GOOD at the time I met him. I felt JOY when I was with him. I haven’t felt either in the aftermath, over a year later. I am questioning my compatibility with EVERYONE and EVERYTHING in my life, like I have no center anymore. Broken-ness. And yes, a healthy and fulfilling life is incompatible with being broken. I am well aware, yet have not been able to overcome broken, sad, and lonely. Because I ALLOWED BGE to matter, because I believed him and thought we WERE compatible and that he DID like me. No other disappointments compare; it’s like I’m hardened/numb to all that, but still feeling devastated by the breakup. STILL, so nothing else can feel worse. I’m spending mucho time alone. This wknd I received free ticket$ to an event/festival/concert, but I have nobody to go with.
Keep your heart open 🙂
Hi Say Something,
I miss you too! My center is gone for sure. I have been floating around trying to enjoy the summer. Like you I spend WAY TOO much time alone. This is getting old. OMG concert tickets- I would love to go. Then we could sit and talk for hours.
I have been going to all sorts of things ALONE. I have been sitting and reading. I have read so many books. Now, even my text messages that I send take so long to get responses. How is everyone so fricken busy? This whole saga has changed my relationship with my family. I need to regroup and start over. You know places I use to love to go just don’t feel the same anymore. I shared all of those experiences with him and at every turn there is a reminder about what we use to do. I wonder if he has ever thought about the things we use to do.
It is not healthy to live like this. I am trying. So, good to hear that you are purging. That is a good feeling. It is so good to be organized when other things in your world are upside down.
Your doing great. Each day that passes you are still moving forward. I know it doesn’t feel like it but each day that passes puts more distance to the end of the relationship. That is a day closer to healing. I am still reading about acceptance.
I assure you our paths would be easier if we had better support systems. All of this ALONE time we have leaves too much time to think about the past.
I would LOVE to have one NORMAL TERRIFIC day again soon. If I could purchase a day like this I would. I am trying to keep my heart open. THANK YOU for being here. It means the world to me. You validate the things I feel and that my virtual dear friend is PRICELESS. I feel some sense of normalcy every time we chat.
Are you going to go and try to enjoy that concert? Be safe , but think about doing it.
BIG HUG,
MJ
Hi MJ,
Sitting on my couch with coffee this morning and crying a little. I just re-read NML’s words and at the end:
“Call it unavailability, call it incompatibility but the net result is the same – it’s not going to work. It’s important to acknowledge this because if you keep looking back and hankering for a relationship that wasn’t working in the wider sense and keeping telling you that this relationship was “perfect” for you or that this was as good as it gets for you, or that you can only be with this person and that you’re wronged by it not working out, you’re making you unavailable for an available relationship and you’re limiting your options because you’re telling you that you’re in alignment with something that’s either unavailable or incompatible.”
So I’m limiting my options, but I don’t even feel like I have any GOOD ones. Like today, it’s beautiful out. I can stay inside and clean out more (not fun to me) or I can go alone (not fun to me) to an outdoor event. I SO MUCH want someone to talk to. If I go, which I’m debating, I will be alone in a crowd of thousands. I’m not AFRAID to go alone, but I’m sad, lonely, bored to have no company, no connection, no friend, no partner once again. Repeat and repeat and repeat. But if you can travel the world, I can spend a day alone in a crowd of tens of thousands. I think what I focus on is…. Hey, I’m surrounded by 50,000 people and not one is my friend. Not one person out of 50,00 has any interest in me. They all have their own lives and I missed the boat. So, I know this is negative thinking and not helpful, but it FEELS like this to me. Maybe I just need to wander there or as you wrote “float around” for a few hours and REALLY FEEL it. I want it to feel good though, and I’ve already set up that attitude that I am incompatible with feeling good. THAT is what scares me. I’m scared of the repeat feelings of sadness I experience when doing things that are supposed to be fun and bring happiness. I’m going to try like hell to find one thing today that brings a smile.
Say Something,
I wish I could give you a hug today. I need one too. Smile. Traveling is just not the same when you are alone. I do not stay at places that are for couples only. It would be just too hard. If I were out here in these hotels with someone special this might be pretty darn good. It is just me.
I know the cleaning is no fun either. It was something I did to occupy my mind. How many more books cam I read? How many more trips can I take alone? I have had WAY too much alone time. I sat outside at a beautiful place today and cried.
Every word you have said in your post is what I have felt today. I don’t like it, but this appears to be my reality. I had to get out to see how it would feel. I honestly don’t think I would suggest it. Some nights I sit outside and eat alone. Other nights I order dinner and have it boxed up to take back to my room. I have had more alone time then I need for this lifetime.
I’m sitting way out here thinking there is no place like home. But the same loneliness is right back there waiting for me. Like you I have survived some tough times, but this has taken me to a whole new level. It shakes your confidence and robs you of any sense of security. How do we ever really trust again?
Gotta get some ice cream. Normally when I am upset I eat a whole bag of raw broccoli or a box of chocolates. Today, IAM going to have ice cream and think about you. I know we are both doing our best to cope.
Some days just suck and that is how the healing process unravels. Here is a warm hug. I hope things change soon.
MJ
Here I am, two hours here alone, floating amongst thousands of people and overcome with such idk what to call it (despair, distress, anxiety, disappointment?) that I need to leave. I really tried. I got ready, thought I looked good, and showed up with a smile and walked and walked around. I need to leave because I’m crying, inappropriately alone in public, thankful only for having sunglasses on so it isn’t obvious. This reaction cannot be normal as there is no specific reason for me to feel so horribly sad.
Part 2: When I got to my car it was boxed in by another. So I sat there for awhile, cried more, calmed down, and wandered for another hour before leaving.
I am not TRYING to feel bad, and I’m concerned that I’m not able to feel good. I feel so disconnected and so incompatible with the world and maybe even myself. I wonder if this is how people end up with addictions. MJ you said you’d like to purchase one “NORMAL TERRIFIC day” and I so understand. Because to have that feeling back could lead to a second day. I’m reading about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, Glasser, and others. And I see that I am severely lacking (ok, ABSENT) in love, connectedness, and belonging. But achieving these elements cannot be forced. My head hurts.
Say Something,
I understand. It is good that you tried. I have gone many places alone and it is normal to have this feeling of emptiness. We had people to hang out with before. I have purchased so many tickets to things that have gone unused. I thought I wanted to venture out but then just didn’t want to.
I have left during the middle of plays. I have walked away from dinner. I have to do what makes me comfortable. The adjustment has been tough. I have had days just like you have described.
I will be so careful in the future about who I allow in my life. I have been in some of the most beautiful places and I have not been able to find peace. I was truly in love with someone who disappointed me. Now, it is hard after all that time together to start over.
I am trying to start over. This just has to run its course. I have read so much. I do something every day to help myself with recovery. Devastated from the betrayal. Trying to live a beautiful life again like I had before he ever showed up.
Try to go home and find a good movie and just relax. Sometimes I am able to get lost in a plot of a good movie.
MJ
MJ,
Thank you for the response.
“I have been in some of the most beautiful places and I have not been able to find peace. I was truly in love with someone who disappointed me.”
Yesterday I was trying to decipher the difference between depression and loneliness. And where emptiness fits in. I haven’t read enough to understand yet.
So I bought and used a “power tool” which felt better than walking alone in a crowd of happy people. I will continue cleaning, purging, fixing, organizing and hope that there is internal crossover. I have a brutal work week
ahead, and wish I could fully embrace it and feel like taking on what I have to do no matter what.
May you experience some beauty in the world this week. Hugs and good thoughts.
Hi Say Something,
I tried surfing. You got a power tool. Progress.
You pose an interesting question about the loneliness vs. depression. For me it may be a combination of both. Loneliness leads to depression. But like you I guess I don’t have enough information to really say for sure. A couple invited me to have a drink with them last night. Wow. They ask me how I liked traveling alone. They must be keeping a close eye on me. I never discuss traveling alone-not safe.
I hope your week at work is not as tough as you think it will be. I started reading about CBT. I have to do a better job of managing my OWN thoughts.
I set a goal today. I want one real friend in 3 months. Someone who is available to go out to concerts, dinner etc. Just a person who want stand me up or not return calls.
This is why I like Noquay’s approach. It is better to do something than sit back and do nothing. I am out here trying to travel and enjoy myself. I guess I just don’t have all the answers. I read the passage you sent by NML. That is so true.
Big hug. I hope your week is better than you could have imagined. I am out here pulling for you and hoping we both see brighter days.
HUGS,
MJ
Thank you Elgie, that is good advice. I wish I had done that instead of handing him myself saying use me, abuse me, do anything you like because I’m worthless anyway.
Great post as always and food for thought, makes sense in terms of my history and who my ex very quickly got involved with after me.
In being with someone who has things he didn’t want with me I question our compatability and sadly my own worth at times.
Thanks Natalie for the blessing you are in our lives.
You are precious!!!!
I needed to hear this. So twisted inside right now because broke up for about the 10th time with a
man who has been so loving and kind.
But always he is not interested in marriage but takes up a lot of my time. I realized he doesnt talk of the future. I think this time will have strength to truly say good bye. I was getting so frustrated wanting more.. He was unavailable. I did no contact for 4 months and he came back into my life
Thank you thank you for this wonderful post. Now i am ready for permanent no contact ive cried enough . time for me to move on to a new start in my life
Alia
There’s a good post on this subject over at Getting Past Your Breakup that many of these relationship problems boil down to the fact that it isn’t “IT” for the other person. Check this out, as well as the good comments with the post.
Hi Wiser,
I read the article, but not the comments yet. This *IT* feeling is when we think we’ve found ‘The One’ and yes I thought I did, but clearly I was ‘not IT’. And I wonder if for some people *IT* will never happen because their *IT* is such an unrealustic fantasy. *IT* is fleeting and temporary. The author got married six months after meeting her husband. She referenced emotional issues, and that he has two ex-wives who continued contacting him even though he married her. So *IT* can have baggage and drama and live happily ever after by over-riding all obtacles? Like the magic EU cure. I’m glad you shared, because I thi k this article is an example of what I see all the time. Two people with crazy baggage who just click and it somehow magically works. The article definitely implied that *IT* trumps all. I don’t think healthy people just wake up one day and decide *IT* is missing and leave their partners. I think that’s what NML calls chasing a feeling. I completely understand that compatibility and avaiability need to be present. This fleeting *IT* just makes me sad but that’s how many people operate. Flags flying all over that story, but it worked anyhow. Idk why, but it makes me sad.
Wiser… what a great find that article is. Thank you for sharing it. Wow. This seems like the Baggage Reclaim 2.0 – for when you’ve found the IT and look back. This is the retrospective, the understanding we reach when we’re in the relationship we truly deserve. Wonderful. Thanks again.
Wiser,
Thank you for this great link. Her book really helped my thinking process too.
While this article is a bit controversial (and the comments point to this), I still learnt something from it.
This post has so much truth in it. I always knew I was a stopgap before his next girlfriend and finally I couldn’t stand waiting for the other shoe to drop. I’ve been no contact for 35 days and I don’t miss the pain and my outbursts of craziness. But I miss the way his texts and emails made me feel at times. I am a carer for a disabled family member and I’m unable to get out and meet anyone. I know that crumbs are not enough but there are times when I long for them so much
I totally get what you are saying. It’s that leaden dead feeling when the excitement is gone. But it was proving to be my undoing.
Great article and very useful thanks, i’m starting to learn more about myself and how to respond / move past the actions of others.
@saysomething
In my opinion it would be wise for you not to view the let-down from your male friend in the same context as your love relationships.
I have female friends who i’ve known for a long time and have let me down at the last minute. It’s infuriating. In this instance i’d distance myself from that person and wouldn’t be so open to them the next time they got in touch – unless of course they had valid reasons for doing so / had been upfront about other commitments or made up for it by contacting me and organising the next meet up which is more convenient for my schedule (ie: they go out of their way to see you).
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. You can however trust in yourself, look forward to things on your own agenda that others can join you with if they wish – have goals and dreams of your own and aspire to achieving those, you will never find happiness in someone else although you may find someone who enjoys the same things you do, or can relate on various levels. Best not to be drawn in to pursue the dreams of others as it will be at your expense.
Best wishes
What if the other person has been through trauma and is emotionally hurt and damaged? How much leeway do you give them if they are unable to get emotionally close? I only realise in hindsight that I gave someone too much leeway and was taken advantage of
Yoyo – I’ve been on the other side of that: in the early 2000s, I was dealing with severe PTSD after surviving a street attack. I was in no shape for a love relationship. I needed to heal, recover, focus on me. To enter a love relationship then would have felt “nice” at the time but it ultimately would have hurt that person and I would have delayed my progress by focusing on them. We have to stop using people to get over/numb our pain… and we have to stop allowing other people to do that to us as soon as we realize that’s what they’re doing.
Hi Michelle
I’m sorry to hear of your terrible ordeal and PTSD and I hope you are healing and healed. Thanks for your response. I guess it’s difficult to understand what’s going on when the person shows you love and warmth and interest… and much better treatment than I’ve had from those who havnt had trauma in their lives… and you believe it will be good for them too to be shown love and warmth and support during their difficult time. I’m so confused and seem to make consistently poor judgements in relationships
Yoyo this is called co dependancy – don’t do it – if someone cant give you the love and respect you deserve it is up to you to put a boundary in place in the first instance and then if the boundary is crossed once for any reason – walk away because the reality is you can’t give them leeway without endangering yourself/becoming co dependant.
Hi Oona
Thanks for your post. Is it codependency? I have read about this and I’m unsure that I’m codependent, perhaps I am. I guess when you meet someone and connect and they don’t disrespect you the only issue is their ability to get close you want to be there and hope that you can help them heal. I know one must do that for themselves but equally everyone needs support and guidance. I don’t meet many men I like and get on with, maybe one every couple of years, so it would have been difficult for me to walk away without giving it a chance
Okay actually I just read an article and it looks like I am codependent. Hard for me to swallow as I see myself as a very independent self sufficient person and I really don’t like the term codependent it sounds bad. Do you have any advice for overcoming codependency? Thank you.
Yoyo, do you know the Three C Rule? You didn’t CAUSE it, you cannot CURE it, and you cannot CONTROL it.
Yoyo what alerted me to your possible co-dependant behaviour is your writing – that they have something wrong with them and that you wanted to support them to heal – how arrogant and patronizing – and yes I’ve been there – first of all did they ask you directly to help them?
If they didn’t – what makes you think they really want your help and to heal?
What makes you think you actually even know what they need?
Do you actually walk in their shoes? Then you can speak for them and only then.
Rule number one
Focus on your needs and healing
Rule number two
If one of your important needs is to find love – focus on giving it to yourself and finding people around you who don’t need to heal first in order to give you what you need – look for people who can just give it.
Natalie talks about co depending brilliantly look in her old posts at the top of the page if you are interested in healing yourself – also goes under name of florence nightingale because you are basically setting yourself up to sacrifice and nurse them in order for a reward…which you never get because they can only heal themselves and your unasked for support is of no real help to anyone. Look at posts about wanting rewards and to being the exception to the rule also. Best wishes.
Yoyo
The answer is, you don’t. Healing is their journey, not yours and sadly, some folk never heal sufficiently to function in a relationship. We all experience trauma, many of us have been seriously hurt. Yet you cant fix others. Another running metaphor; an out of shape person attempting to run a marathon has to dedicate themselves to fixing their bodies, totally changing eating and exercise habits, self discipline, develop the ability to deal with pain/discomfort yet stay strong and put in maybe years of training. Some folks in seriously bad health may never get there no matter what they do. I stumbled into a situation like this with Trauma Man two years ago. Didnt realize the extent of his injury, the resultant dysfunction AND that some of his problems arose from decisions unrelated to the injury. The situation that continued to worsen until somehow I was at fault for something sustained years ago. Nope. Two men in this area suffered brain injuries; no matter how much they healed their bodies, their thinking processes are now so rigid to compensate for the injuries that a relationship, or anything needing give and take, compromise, spontanaity, is impossible. There perfectly good folk, just cannot overcome that hurdle. None of us a perfect but ALL must enter into relationships reasonably whole and able to contribute 100%.
Yes I support this Noquay – you don’t really know if you do know what support they need – you assume you know based on your fantasies in your head about them healing – and that is extremely dangerous to YOUR health.
My rule of thumb now is to only help people who ask for help directly and only if you are able (ie getting your needs met already – not in lieu of possibly maybe receiving them later as your reward for your hard work or sacrifice).
Getting lots out of these posts, as always. I’ve been back in my home province for a year now, since leaving the small Pacific Northwest town I was in: I was right, it’s way easier for me to date here, more diversity means more people that look like me hence more people who are open to dating people who look like me, more professionals and lefty-types, more creative folk in my area has meant that I can go out and meet interesting new people and I have.
It’s been just over a year since my hysterectomy; the years of anemia are over, I’m back to running and weight training and feel strong and look pretty darn good, too. Work continues to be sporadic and precarious (I’ll be back in BC next year briefly).
Instead of finding a-holes, as I was doing when I found BR nearly five years ago (!) I seem to have graduated to nice-ish guys with mundane reasons for not being into a relationship / into me. Hard to tell the difference btw unavailable/incompatible! But feel like I have gained a new level of strength learning saying no to pursuing things with polite, kind, attractive men who pay for everything and walk me back to my car etc but are just being “good boys” and actually aren’t finding me to be what they want. I am a strong flavour, I’m learning, and I fight the impulse to bland myself in order to be less scary. I also have learned that much of my “strong personality” has been defensiveness and wanting to not be taken advantage of, so in fact I’ve become less full-on in dates, knowing that I know myself and have good boundaries, so I don’t have to beat a date over the head with my views on capitalism, feminism, etc on the first night out; my values should just eventually show in what I do; they’re not something I need to advertise/defend.
Last week I got into something with a man my best friends set me up with; a widower whose wife died 3 years ago. It rose and fell in just under two weeks. After the first nice date, we agreed to talk a couple days later, but he got in touch earlier to send pix of his kids. The next week was every day phone calls, felt like he was big into me, with lots of stories about his kids that included many stories about the wife, telling me that he was telling his friends about me, etc. I was flattered and did let myself believe it, just a little, even though I was like, whoa, pix of kids so soon? Telling people about me so soon?
By the end of the week I had heard a ton about his kids, their routine, stories about the dead wife, his therapy, his support network, etc etc and yet, I thought, hmm, he hasn’t really asked me about me yet. On the next date I made sure to tell him a few things about myself, and by the end of the night he was letting me know that he has worked so hard to come to love single parenting that “I don’t want to share the kids with anyone” he “just wants to go out and do things.” Instead of thinking, he doesn’t know what he’s saying, I decided to hear him loud and clear. I asked, gently, what do you mean when you say that? How should I hear that? And it was basically him suddenly trying to say diplomatically that he wanted to go out and have a good time with new women without it being interpreted as him looking for a serious partner.
I did go through some annoyance: why show me pix of the kids when you’re not wanting anything serious? How is it that you feel okay telling me about your therapy and journey and yet when I try to say something about my own history you act like I dropped a piece of poo in your lap? I could say it’s about him not being over his wife (unavailable) or that he just figured out that he actually doesn’t like me as much as he thought and is doing a huge dialback (incompatible).
In the end it’s the same outcome. No go. It’s probably easier on my ego to think of his unavailability as the main obstacle, but I think it’s important for me to be emotionally strong enough that I stop picking EU guys that will never have me risk my feelings and move on to picking good guys who can potentially really disappoint me by just deciding that we’re not a good fit.
A few days ago I was reading about Cary Grant, the actor, don’t know why. Anyway, he said this about his first brief 1-year marriage: “I got married in hopes of getting affection. I never dreamed she’d be wanting affection too”.
Magnolia, that guy was starring in his very own “all about me” show. It is great that it hit you early on that “Hey, he is not too interested in what I am about, is he?” And it’s great that you tested it by telling him things about yourself. He cooled off quick the minute you started looking for “mutual”. The minute you pulled up and said with your actions: “ I know you can talk, but can you listen…?…openly….?…with interest?”
You did a good thing for yourself. If you are looking for someone to give love, care, trust, and respect – it ain’t him. Has nothing to do with you not being “the one”. He’s in “all about me” mode.
@Magnolia; I really like what you wrote; that you dont have to come on strong since you validate your own views. And also that you asked him to explain the strange things he was saying. If you hear only a few ambiguous things, you give the person the benefit of the doubt. Once you hear many many ambiguous things, you realize its not you, its them.
Also, regarding this married guy; I think he’s confused. He was married a long time, not used to dating. He comes on super super strong. Mixed messages – pictures of kids, talk of therapy, and then he says he wants casual sex? This is just someone talking out of their ass and not knowing what it is they want and how one behaves in accord with their own wants. If he wanted it light, he should have kept it light. It is also manipulative in that a person that knows they want it casual is future faking and coming on strong; so they are trying to evoke emotions in you that they have no intention of following up on.
I think unavailability comes with not knowing what you want, or pretending to not know what you want or not thinking that its socially ok to say what you want. The guy that says ‘i’m not looking for a relationship’ but then keeps blowing hot and cold – to me thats not unavailable, thats AC. With the dating world what it is, its not that hard to be casual with someone – you dont need to blow hot for that, you dont need future faking. If you really dont want a relationship, why are you trying to build one? I think this comes down to the fact that we all no longer know what we want – unavailable seems partly code for ‘will string you along, take advantage of your feelings and confuse you — for sex’.
There is the person that says I’m not looking for a relationship, and then proceeds to leave you alone or to treat you strictly platonically. Thats good, thats healthy and honest. That might be unavailable to you, but it is not necessarily emotionally unavailable. And its definitely not AC. Then theres the person that says they dont want to be in a relationship, then hits on you, future fakes, texts ‘i miss you’ [ex-EUM did these things]. This is inconsistent behavior and I think its because people want to keep having sex, having intrigue and drama, without actually committing, being responsible, answering to expectations, bringing you soup, watching your favorite movie they dont like etc etc.
Suki,
“– unavailable seems partly code for ‘will string you along, take advantage of your feelings and confuse you — for sex’.”
I know I suffered immensely because we APPEARED to be extremely compatible. So in the aftermath when he wrote that it SEEMED we were headed in different directions, I had no context. I only had positive comments and plans that included us both until BAM. This guy with Magnolia
declared his EU-turn within 2 weeks. I WISH I had that instead of six months of EU soup.
Suki,
I love what you wrote. That’s essentially my story.
I’ve realized that in 99,99% these kind of people know exactly what they are doing. Even if they are stupid or emotionally stunted, I guarantee you they have had other women tell them that this ambiguity hurts them. Or someone in their family. It’s impossible to go through life exhibiting this kind of behavior and never be told that it’s wrong or hurtful. They just choose to “forget” or ignore this so that they can continue. Staying in this forced state of “Oh I am so confused and conflicted” and not doing a thing to change is on them. It benefits them that’s why they do it. And like you said, it shifts them into the category of ass clowns.
I don’t believe it for a second that, let’s say, a man in his 40’s has never heard that giving conflicting messages to a woman is wrong and he’s being dishonest.
Maybe it’s okay when you’re just beginning to date as a teenager. Or after a super long marriage. But then you learn, and doing these things is a CHOICE.
I know for a fact that the EUM I was involved with knew what he was doing alright. How? Because I told him this!
Magnolia, I think you did fantastically well. You were authentic and open. Also, I immediately recognized myself in how you described yourself coming strong and needing to polarize about politics and feminism 🙂 I have learnt something from your post. Thank you for sharing.
@Why; I wonder if all of this is simply a question of ‘do it if it makes you happy’. I see the long term damage that gas lighting AC and ex-EUM have done to me; I loved gas lighting AC and assumed for a long time that we would be married. Ex-EUM was a blip really in that I never even got close to being love with him. Still both these guys did a number on my self-esteem, on my feelings of adequacy etc – AND i was not happy in the day to day relationships. These guys were not just problematic, they were emotionally dishonest. I had other relationships that didn’t work but in that case the average messy relationship doesnt leave you feeling so undermined; you might be sad or angry or whatever. I think the hallmark of the type of EU we are talking about is dishonesty.
I think as long as you are in a relationship which is EU but are both having a good time, its fine – I think this is possible. I dated someone very very EU but on a day to day basis this person and I were compatible; I was changing jobs etc., very transient life and that relationship worked for me at that time. But we were different types of EU – i was open to things evolving into long term. He believed that someone better was out there for him and he used to self-sabotage and sabotage our relationship usually by not having good boundaries with his harem (the harem didn’t always know they were the harem, most of this was in his mind, something he used to keep commitment away). Anyway – when he acted out, I left the relationship. I dont think he had long term negative effects on me because while we were together it was good. I still miss him a bit because we did get along really well, he was just totally EU and I’m glad not to be with him anymore. BUT he didn’t affect my self-esteem, we just wanted different things in the long run. He didn’t make me rethink relationships or fear trusting others. I think the people that make you fear trusting others are the worst because in that case their AC-ness transmits to you and makes you even more EU. It makes you feel that its about YOU.
This is why we need NC, this is why you must run run from ambiguity because it corrodes you, eats you up, and makes you doubt yourself. And it shows you a side of people that you should never have seen; gas lighting AC shocked me, made me despair about life, made me helpless and powerless, I think it was like PTSD to get away from him, he was slowly driving me crazy with his denials, lies, undermining, narcissism and coldness.
So I dont think its just EU or compatible etc., its really how that person makes you feel and whether there is honesty in the relationship.
Hi Magnolia,
I’ve been reading BR archives from 2010-2011 so my knowledge of your stories is limited to that time frame. Right now, in my world, you have recently left your inappropriate host guy’s place.
Single parent guy really LOVES doing it all alone? Oooookay. Fast forwarder and he is def using his kids as a barrier. You’re right, end result equals not working. He is dictating his limited terms to you, and you see that. I know from all I’ve read that you possess the ability to recognize a situation for
what it is.
Are you happy? I have years more of archives to read. I was surprised (in a good way) to see your name appear on a current post. I don’t recognize the names from 4-5 years ago writing here. Thank you for everything you’ve shared.
Magnolia… this reminds me of “emotional labor” and the expectation hat some men have that this is women’s “job” – to comfort, console, listen, etc. to their pains. I’m not talking about the mutual support that equals offer to each other – I’m talking about the entitlement some men feel to have women soothe their wounds without asking for anything in return.
It’s as though when you began sharing yourself with him, he rolled back along the lines of, “Oh no, this is your department as the squishy, emotional female, not mine. You’re supposed to take care of my emotions and yours too. That’s *your* job.” And you weren’t having it. Some men think this is how this works (whether consciously or not). It’s sexist bullshit to me.
Charlie Glickman wrote a great article called Unpaid Emotional Labor talking about the gendered unfairness of this entitlement. I love his writing…
I hope this is helpful and I wish you all the best. Sounds like you avoided a dude that would have eventually drained the life out of you and he would have thought nothing of it.
This is so succinctly written, NML! I’m printing it out and keeping it handy for reference. I come here for the occasional “booster shot” of encouragement as I keep going down this very new path of building self-esteem/self-worth.
I was involved in a 3-year relationship with an EU AC. It’s been such a relief to know I really wasn’t the sole problem in that relationship, despite being constantly reminded by him of all my defects and problems. Turns out I did have a number of issues, not the least of which was having him pop in and out of my life on his whims. Of course, I allowed it, and I now view what was such a freaking roller coaster it actually was. You are absolutely right in this post: I got the EU relationship I was ready for myself. Now I’m focusing on me and my life and the slow work of getting where I would like to be as a person; eventually I hope to find someone to join me on that journey. But if it doesn’t happen, I need to know I’m OK on my own.
I have been lucky to find a fantastic cognitive-behavioral therapist IRL; going to see her and coming here have been such a help. Thank you!!!
I started a friendship with an old school friend, we went out for meals, weekends away etc, including a weekend in London. We got lost and I said oh we will just ask someone for directions and after I said that she bit my head off and said no, it’s like she was trying to take control and be in charge. I didn’t say nothing. Also in that time I never met her sons. Obvs after a while I was getting attached to her, yes we slept together more than once.
She told me at the start that she treats guys like s**t and that all she was interested in was c**k and none of
the emotional stuff, when I heard this I was just so dis-heartened and didn’t know what to think.
Earlier in the year I noticed she started to get distant and cold with me and we wouldn’t hang out anymore, so told her I wanted more than friendship and I had been thinking about how to confront her about it, instead all I got was “why the f**k didn’t u have the balls to say”.
I took her off of Facebook to which she went loopy and said thanks, I tried to explain to her I did that bcuz I was fed up with asking her questions to which she never replied and just moved on to another subject.
I was thinking maybe it’s “she’s not that in to me” but then when she made comments that she treats guys awful it must be she’s EU.
“When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.” ? Maya Angelou
I would also add ‘when someone TELLS you, believe them.’
Kudos. I cosign on this entire blog post.
Hope you post this on facebook as well.
Great points mentioned.
Hi everyone,
First time poster here, but this post really resonated with a lot that I’ve been thinking about recently. My story:
– been best friends with a guy for 1 year, knowing a lot about his horrible relationship pasts (mostly him cheating, always going back to exes, or double / triple timing them).
– ignored all the red flags since we were BEST friends and I felt I could trust him (we’d sometimes sleep in the same bed together, but just cuddling and nothing more – I felt respected). He also spent much more time with me than with his girlfriend at the time, just hanging out, talking, all very innocent.
– I fell in love with him when he broke up with that girlfriend. I told him about it, but he said that he’d make a terrible boyfriend, is suffering from depression and anxiety, and he wouldn’t want to subject me to it. I SHOULD HAVE LISTENED!!
– I found out that he proceeded to chase 2 of his ex girlfriends after this conversation, hooking up with them etc.
– I went NC, but after a month he contacted me and agreed to be in a relationship. 3 months later he cheated on me with a random woman at a bar, but I forgave him.
– I met all his family, his friends became my friends, things were good for a while, and then his character started to show. I could already see that his parents didn’t really understand what I saw in him (they’d always say that he is selfish and lacks empathy), but I thought that they were just very critical of him.
– It started off with him picking fights. Now I am not one to shy away from conflict, and I can certainly argue and stand my ground, but it got to the point where I noticed that he just wants to have an argument and there was no way of avoiding that. Quite scary and stressful, particularly if it was over something ridiculous.
– Then he wouldn’t just pick the arguments, but he’d start to get aggressive: punching walls, throwing food, kicking chairs, burning his hand with cigarettes to show me how much ‘I’ was ‘hurting him’ … ??
– Then the name calling started. Again – he’d pick an argument out of the blue, I learnt by then to talk him down at least a bit, but he’d still call me the most horrible words on the planet. The worst was when I started crying after repeatedly being called a c*nt, and he shouted ‘stop crying like a little bitc*!)
– Then the random breaking up started. He just wanted to be ‘alone’ etc. I’d always go NC, sometimes he’d contact me again after 5 days, begging to get back together, sometimes a week, the longest has been 3 weeks – I always took him back.
– We went on holidays together, I really thought after that 3 weeks break-up that we’d finally reached a road to ‘normalcy’, but 2 weeks ago he just decided to break-up again. He wants to be alone, ‘life is more peaceful, calm and predictable that way’. So I’m NC ever since.
– Not to mention that he was horrible with the phone! He’d go 4 days without responding to texts, never picked up a phone call, and he himself would only communicate if he needed a shoulder to cry on or complain about something.
– I also noticed that he started being very rude about random people in the street, commenting on them in terribly disrespectful ways, and – towards the break-up – he mentioned 2 situations where he really wanted to get into a fight with someone and punch them out.
Gosh, it really helped writing all this down. Thank you BR for giving me strength in this difficult time, I WISH I had found you sooner.
Jules,
I’m glad you’ve found BR. Stay strong and don’t let this violent, manipulative, dangerous person back into your life.
The signs to stop were there while you were still “friends” and somehow still thought it was a good idea to hang out with someone that you knew was a cheater, or to sleep in the same bed with someone who had a girlfriend.
Your bar for whom you trust is set very low.I can relate – I’ve been there! My bar set much higher after learning many BR lessons, thank goodness. You deserve much better, Jules.
Hi Magnolia,
Thank you for your words. I can’t tell you how happy I am that I found BR. Yes, the signs were definitely there, but our friendship could not be denied, so I chose to ignore them. After all – while we were friends – he never lied to me. He only started lying after he became my boyfriend…
And just to clarify: I did not sleep in the same bed as him while he had the girlfriend. I would never do that. This was 2 months after they broke up their 4 month relationship, and another 2 months before I told him that I loved him.
Here’s the setting the bar higher, one step at the time!
@Jules; I see some red flags in how you see him; he was your best friend for a year though you only knew him a year. He spent more time with you than his gf – this is another red flag tbh. I dont think one can have a best friend that they’ve known just a year – plus all you knew about him was that he was untrustworthy in romantic relationships. This was a huge red flag that you ignored. I think Natalie has a post on when we think we will be the exception to the rule.
I think a good question to ask is; how will you react to him if he contacts you? How will you set your boundaries with him in the future? ANd second, what do you think were the points in the relationship that you could have got out. What were the red flags, what were the things that werent as they seemed and what made you ignore them. You need those answers to make sure you are safe from him and from other guys like him.
Hi Suki, I get your point about the ‘best’ friend title, but somehow we clicked and we trusted each other completely. At that time we were very balanced when it came to being there for each other, talking and listening, etc. I was there waiting for him when he had his final exam, he picked me up after my PhD defence with a bottle of champagne… all without ever having any sexual innuendos or whatnot, just pure friendship, equal in terms of giving and receiving.
I think because of this trust he also disclosed so much about what a terrible boyfriend he is. I know for a fact that none of his exes is fully aware of the full extent of his indiscretions and his other terrible relationship experiences (terrible because of his terrible behaviour).
I guess the first, and probably biggest, red flag when it came to our relationship was when he said that he doesn’t want to be in one with me (found me ‘too intimidating’ of all things)… then the cheating. Up until that point our communication was still very balanced and respectful, but it all went downhill from there. He even told me once that he doesn’t respect me, thinks that I am a pushover and that I lack social skills. At the same time he would put down all my friends in the rudest ways possible… so either I HAVE friends or I DON’T, I don’t think he could ever make up his mind about that…
And suddenly he just became really, really nasty. I found it very hard to deal with his negativity about every aspect of life – strangers, his family, always blaming others for even the smallest things. I also didn’t like the fact that he suddenly seemed ‘happy’ and ‘joyful’ about his friends’ misfortunes, it was so bizarre! And then he started breaking up with me, overall I think it was 5 or 6 times, but only twice did it last for longer than a few days. The reasons would always be his depression, or that I am too intense, or that I am too giving, or that I am too selfish, he even called me a narcissist once (LOL! Obviously after I suggested he was one first).
Honestly – I am done. I feel sad, I miss him, but I know that I don’t want a relationship with him anymore (RATIONALLY. Emotionally I am still getting there). I also think it is going to be different this time and he is not going to try to get back together – the past 2 months I have been very harsh with him every time he started an argument, and I feel that he is afraid of how well I know him. I know it is strange to say that, but I really feel that he is scared of me now, even though most of the time I’ve been loving and supportive. It’s as if he can’t wear a mask around me anymore, and it makes him very uncomfortable.
But if I’m honest with myself, the full inventory of red flags:
– I knew he was a cheater. Heard him speak disrespectfully about every single ex, yet saw him getting back together with them over and over again (sometimes two at a time, while having a gf).
– I knew he didn’t want to be with me, for whatever reason.
– I knew he cheated on me. But – in this respect, I was indeed the exception to the rule, as it only happened once (hahaha I know how this sounds! Lucky me, eh?)
– I knew he spoke disrespectfully of his mother, who I always found to be a warm, giving person.
– I knew he was disrespectful towards his friends, mocking them, questioning their intellect, all that stuff. He was laughing when one of his friends got into a biking accident that obviously that friend was ‘less of a man’ than he was, since he would have never gotten into an accident!
– I knew he was aggressive and had anger issues. Not just towards domestic appliances, also towards strangers he felt ‘disrespected’ him.
– I knew he was deeply insecure and through some tough childhood trauma (sexual assault by older boys from school).
– I realised finally that all he really needed was an ‘audience’, not a gf, on the good days. On the bad days all he needed was an armchair psychologist. On the ordinary days he didn’t even care if I existed.
– I have been told repeatedly by him that he doesn’t value me, respect me, want me. He was unemployed for a few months, and I helped him land a job at a very prestigious firm with a very high wage – he’s bored of that job now and blaming me…
– During that time that he was unemployed I paid for a lot of stuff, he always made a point of saying that once he gets a job he’ll return the favour. Well now he makes 3 times as much money as I do, but would always want to split the bill. I once reminded him of the promise he made, but he stated that I’m a bad investment, so he wouldn’t feel comfortable paying anything for me.
– Finally, I developed an anxious attitude to my phone since he’d reply to texts and phone calls very selectively (sometimes I’d have to wait for days to get a reply).
Now where’s my IDIOT award?
@Jules – where’s your idiot award? I currently have it! lol
Well done for finding BR and just read and embrace all the advice here. It’s working for me and I have INGRAINED patterns that were/are very hard to break.
Best wishes
Bellakins xxx
Thank you so much for your words! And let go of that award already, that statue is mine :)))
I avoided running into him today, phew. I was out with my friend (the one who is friends with his friends), and we were supposed to join her friends at another pub, but thank God she thought about asking who is going to be there, and his close friend was one of the people, so there’s an 80% chance the ex would have been there as well.
So instead, I just went home, arranged a wonderful cheese platter for myself (I wish I could post a picture!) and I am eating, sipping red wine, and reading BR. I love this site for all the advice Natalie is giving, just as much as for the comments. I have a lot to learn, ladies. I am turning 30 in 2 weeks, time to start figuring myself out. At least I know that I like cheese… as for the qualities I am looking in a man, the list just highlights the dysfunction of my last relationship: someone who doesn’t lie and cheat, someone in the habit of picking up the phone, someone who is not all me me me, someone who has empathy and compassion, someone who doesn’t call me names or pick fights or put me down or sneer when I am happy and ‘so bloody sentimental’ (he said after we returned from the holiday and I lovingly kissed him and said that I wish we could have stayed there longer), someone who can plan more than a few minutes in advance. As my friend says: Pretty basic stuff.
Oh Jules… you have summed up my EUM very well. And I agree – I think they get it when we begin to set the boundaries. They realize they can’t do this or that or the other anymore. One by one, their old antics are shut down. And they know they’ve spilled their guts to us as their armchair therapists. And once it’s over, they know they can’t bullshit us anymore and the truth comes out – and they know we’re smart enough to see it. We’re holding up a mirror and they’re just lashing out. Our mere presence reminds them of the truth of themselves and it’s too close for comfort. I agree with you… and hang in there.
In my case, whenever our paths cross on occasion due to shared community we’re both heavily involved in, the avoidance is mutual. We tried to be “friends” – First time I saw him in “friendship,” I had to call him out for touching me in an overfamiliar/inappropriate manner and demanded he respect my space; he agreed; I unfriended him on FB and that was that. If “respect my space” is “never interact with me again,” great. Folks in our circle know we’re not friends or connected in any way anymore – and I think he avoids me out of *shame.* Which he should, frankly. May your EUM similarly steer clear of you forever and ever!
Haha I am sure he will stay away from me forever. Luckily, we don’t really share any activities or friends in common. There is one friend who is dear to me, and who is friends with his close friends, but I’ve already spoken to her, and we’ll just hang out having girl time whenever we want to, I’m not too keen on going out partying on a Friday night with everyone anyway.
Also, I am moving to a different country for 3 weeks, next week. So excited. It was something I always wanted to do with HIM, but he was impossible at planning anything more than 30 mins in advance, so I had given up on that thought. But hey! I can do it by myself, so let the adventure begin 🙂 All the best to you, Michelle, Suki and everyone!
PS: I speak the language of that country like my mother tongue, so I hope to be able to throw myself out there in the unknown and make new friends. I’m staying away from romance for a while, but I am excited about meeting new people. I just have to get rid of his voice in my head telling me that I am not good enough, nobody likes me, I am inappropriate, people think I am ridiculous, I’ll never have any friends, etc. Well, I might not have over 1000 friends on FB like he does, I have ‘only’ 300 and already think that’s too many, but I have my 4-5 very close friend that are always there for me. All he has is people to get drunk with.
@Jules; and tbh it sounds like he is not even EU or narc just a very damaged sort of person. He has deceived all his girlfriends including you. And you only have his word for it that he doesnt tell all the women he’s with what he’s done in past relationships.
He totally sounds like the person that can’t stand his own company.
But I would still say; he was not your friend, he doesnt sound like he would have any real friends – he’s so unpleasant. You cannot trust someone that is fundamentally untrustworthy – a thief that tells you of all their heists is still untrustworthy. You thought it was a sign of trust that he was saying what a terrible way he has behaved in the past. But unless someone says those things and then indicates how much remorse they have – without the remorse they are just telling you who they are. He did not ‘suddenly’ become really nasty – he was always really nasty. He cheats on all his gfs. He enjoys the misfortunes of others. He is intimidated by successful women.
Conmen are great at clicking, they’re charming, narcs have no boundaries and therefore get intimate very quickly. His telling you those details about his cheating is not to me a sign of trust – but a lack of boundaries on his part, and his attempt to check whether he could take you for granted.
Exactly Suki.
I value honesty. I now also value when a guy honestly tells me he is a douchebag.
In the last few years, before my marriage broke up, I really began to understand and use the term emotionally unavailable for my ex. It explained a lot. But what really blew me away was realizing how different our values were. I valued consistency, self-growth, being emotionally communicative, engaged and insightful. These aren’t qualities that exist in an eum. So yes, emotional unavailability is the same as incompatibility but on a deep level. I thought my ex and I WERE compatible because we both cared about social justice…that was SO superficial and a big mistake.
espresso, I can relate to what you are saying in a huge way. To me personally, *staying* emotionally unavailable is indeed a values incompatibility issue. Because a grown up man chooses to do all that hurtful crap and that tells me a lot about the things that he values. That also tells me that person is an opportunist.
Elgie R and Magnolia it’s so great to hear your stories & ur positive responses really gave me strength to know that if u pay attention & apply ur boundaries then you can reduce the amount on time spent on people who are really only interested in themselves. I’m slowly learning that being nice & considerate can sometimes be a self detriment. But I’ve also noticed a few EU characteristic of my own thru reading BR and these I need to work on prior to trying a new relationship after 2 years separated.
Jules I’m so sorry to hear of ur experience this man sounds like a nutter with no redeeming characteristics, don’t worry my ex was a bit like that, if I think back to the cruel words he said it makes me cringe but i make excuses for him. Now I don’t know how I ever considered accepting such treatment. I will not ever again either now that I can recognise the way I need to manage my life.
Incompatible or UA does not really matter – either way too stressful!
So timely. Workplace Drama Guy has finally admitted in a neutral way that he is ‘spoken for’. Halle bloody lujah. Such a relief. That’s all I ask: to know where they stand; a tiny bit of honesty goes a long way.
I have been extra marvellous – stayed with my emotions, listened to them, and let them pass naturally. Nothing has been shoved down this time, and it’s great but it does hurt a bit. Like a good stretch, though.
Sorry to hear it was a non starter Ethelreda – but get feeling from how you write – you dodged another bullet – well done always good to start on solid ground – better luck next time…
Still reading BR. Still grateful I found BR. Still single & fully satisfied about it & happier than ever. Out of all the things I tried in my life to help me, BR was the most helpful.
It’s truth serum in a world of constant lies.
Dear BR readers! I don’t know if this is the right place to ask, but this site has been a life saver for me and I would really like to hear your comments… Why do I keep attracting “losers” (I use the quotes, this is their word, not mine)? The same pattern goes on and on: I only get approached by men who have serious self esteem issues. They are super shy, awkward, unattractive…I hate how this sounds, but this is what it is, and they know (and say) it as well. I once had a realtionship with a guy like this and it was a disaster. Having a relationship with someone with poor self esteem is like a poisoned well, it will make you ill as well. So, never again! But how to break the pattern: to find decent men to date and get them to approach me? And what it is in me that “calls” for these men? I don’t feel like a loser and I sure don’t want to date someone who feels like one!
Mellie
I have poor self-esteem but I definitely do not think I am like a “poisoned well” to date. It sounds like you are not attracted to these “losers” so perhaps you should try dating others who are less awkward or less unattractive. I think it’s more about compatibility than whether one person in the relationship is “better” than another. I imagine these relationships won’t be doing much to help their self esteem either
Yoyo, that is not what I meant at all! Everybody has self esteem issues every now and then (I think it would be very weird to always find yourself Mr./Ms. Awesome). The problem is not them, it is me (like I said, I don’t think them as losers). And this is the problem: why I don’t seem to find any “suitable” men to date? We all know that we see what we want to see, and I am worried why I only find this kind of relationships.I bet you are nothing like my poison well ex who blamed me for all his insecurities, was jealous, possesive and eventually violent.That is what I meant.I found the hard way, that love doesn’t conquer all, and it scares me that after all what I went trough I am still stuck in the same pattern. And I have my issues too, that is just the reason I have to break this pattern. I don’t want to “Florence” anymore, but it just keeps happening.
Hi Mellie… I think actually, this doesn’t reflect on you but rather, the predictable ways that EUM “test” their environment to see who responds. It might be that you’re still in the same environments where you used to encounter EUM – and they’re still there, chumming the waters with their sob stories to see who will respond… the fact that you’re seeing it for what it is and not biting says everything about you and your growth.
Once we see this for what it is, we can recognize it and avoid it. I think of it this way: instead of wondering why my tires are flat from potholes and blaming me for their existence, I can accept that potholes are part of the road, they are part of the landscape when I get behind the wheel… and I can swerve to avoid them because I know what to look for (and how it feels).
Try a new road, a new part of town? Sounds like you’re hanging around in Pothole-ville and need a change in scenery! 🙂
@mellie, and others;
This is an interesting question; sort of the reverse of the ‘picker’ (the argument that your picker or your ability to pick is broken and the reverse of that is that somehow you are being picked also by fools, losers etc).
I am a bit of an introvert though I’m not shy or socially insecure; I end up with guys that are socially needy, hungry, seeking approval, people pleasing etc. (hence the harem keeper, or the flirt). We pick each other. Why? I think partly I make them feel safe because they know I’m really honest; but why do I pick them? Because I’m used to ambiguous relationships since childhood? or because I’m quite low maintenance and let things slide?
I also come across as quite assertive etc. I have wondered sometimes that strength in a woman is both really attractive to these guys, but also something they deeply resent and are turned off by; a strong woman is attractive because strong people usually are. But strong women invert the social hierarchy. I think these guys dont want to be with me as much as they want to BE ME – definitely gas lighter AC wanted to be me, he took on my hobbies, in the early days he was really fitting with me but later I remained myself and doing my hobbies, and he became really boring which I think is who he was. I dont know why I’m not attracting normal guys or picking the normal guys – but then again, I dont want normal. I want compatible and I can hardly say that I am normal. I have realized that the next guy i;m with i want someone that knows what they want, knows what they are doing, and doesnt need validation.
Also back to Mellie’s point; i think a guy that says he’s not good enough is EU and emotionally dishonest. He’s like Groucho Marx ‘I can’t be in a group that would have me as a member’. And I think these men are actually dishonest – you’d think that if they aren’t good enough for you, that they’d treat you super well since they obviously got real lucky, no? NO!! its misplaced modesty – they actually think YOU’RE not good enough, they have extreme ideas of perfection and since they hardly live up to their own standards, you won’t either. Run!!!
You are also picking them in some way and not seeing red flags. Its mutual. So I can’t say how you can attract decent guys – you dont need to attract decent guyS, just one decent guy will do it. But I think we are all learning on BR how to avoid the non-decent ones – a person that doesnt like themselves should be avoided. We’re well on our way to emotionally fruitful relationships if we can see that. [and that also means that we have to like ourselves, be honest, have boundaries, live to our values, — that is partly how one attracts and keeps decent people].
@Suki
‘I am a bit of an introvert though I’m not shy or socially insecure; I end up with guys that are socially needy, hungry, seeking approval, people pleasing etc. (hence the harem keeper, or the flirt). We pick each other. Why? I think partly I make them feel safe because they know I’m really honest; but why do I pick them?’ plus the bit where you said that these EUMs both like and resent strong women: these points seem to apply to me as well.
I’m also an introvert and one particular guy was really shy and insecure around me to a far greater extent than any of them have been before. It was the weirdest thing ever because he’s generally an extrovert and seems to be very social and confident (has attractive girlfriends too) – yet with me he was highly attracted yet incredibly uncomfortable. He just seemed all at sea and wasn’t being his real self at all – pretending to be tougher than he was etc. I found it so confusing that he’s only that way around me and perhaps it’s related to your point about this type of guy wanting something that you’ve got in terms of your character e.g. security in yourself or emotional strength. It’s not like he even knew me well – I think it must either be that I come off a certain way that intimidated him or maybe I seemed familiar somehow and reminded him subconsciously of someone from his past. It was all quite disconcerting!
Suki how true is this! – great insight.
Mellie
Critical thinking time. Are you meeting men both attractive and unattractive and the attractive ones reject you or are all the men you meet wherever you live problematic? An important distinction. First of all, there are dudes, who know they’re not dating material as is and they hit on all and sundry anyway; nothing to do with you. Desperate folk latch on to anyone. The term loser covers a lot of ground. Dudes that still live with Mom, are barely employed, are not into education, in poor physical shape, may be an indication of area socioeconomics and again, have little to do with you. Some areas just have a lousy dating pool. Do your women friends have the same problem? If you meet men outside the area, is it the same situation? Was seeing myself as this horrible, ugly loser until I had to go back home after my dad collapsed. Soooo under the worst possible circumstances, after literally having to remove dads respirator and meds and watch him die, I spent a coupla days alone to emotionally recover in the town where the hospital was. Men made eye contact,smiled, good looking seemingly with their act together. I actually went on two dates after this horrid experience with someone who I’d never marry but was financially, physically, emotionally healthy. It wasn’t me at all. My main challenge on line has little to do with who I am; men actually seem quite impressed, it’s driving distance and some difference in values that’s the main problem. Am actually importing a guy from Minnesota to stay in town to see if we get along. If the problem stays no matter where you date, it’s you. If its geographic or a matter of regional economics/values/culture, it’s not. I get approached by mentally ill/marginal guys here because I am one of the few that’ll treat them with respect. This gets tricky as you don’t want them reading something else into just good manners. This is where boundaries and polite enforcement of them come in.
Why is it, i read these posts, they make total sense but i do the exact opposite? Do I like pain and self torture to be with an EU man for the past 3 years? I’ve tried no contact, he creeps back in and makes my heart melt. I know it’s not healthy and it’s toxic, yet i keep letting it happen. Sigh.. i hope i find the light. I have found it at times but then I get sucked back in.. time will tell how much I can endure and allow.
Mellie,
(I absolutely love your name.) You know I have the most similar problem. (I guess I am still attracted to the sullen types a bit.) For me, it stems from having a severe phobia of intimacy. I loved my mom dearly as a child and lost her to suicide as a child. After that, getting close to another individual appeared impossible. Problem is I’m a human being with human needs. I need closeness of course. Through therapy and BR, I was able to connect the dots and am getting better at recognizing healthy opportunities for closeness and not shying away.
Just keep being aware of this with a desire to attract different & don’t give up.
My life has been hard, but I can tell you with certainty there are giving available people out there. (Much more than you’d think.)
Take Care
Peanut
& keep following BR; it saved my life.
Thank you Michelle, Suki, Claire A. and Peanut!BR and the community always give me hope and new insight. I still have things to work on, but at least now I recognize the pattern when it is forming and choose to opt out. Suki puts it well:”i think a guy that says he’s not good enough is EU and emotionally dishonest.” This is exactly the problem: it is not a foundation for solid, equal, honest relationship. It is an invitation to a weird powerplay. I used to accept eagerly, because then I got to be dishonest too. What Peanut said hit me hard: I have always wanted to keep myself unattached,distant and have an upper hand,”safe” from true intimacy. Of course there are no upper hands or winners here: just two people feeding each others insecurities. I will keep looking for a real realtionship with no roles or masks… I will get out of the Pothole-ville one day! 🙂
I agree with the choices comments – I often find I choose people who are incompatible with me in lifestyle, education, common interests, world views (eg sexism, environment etc), choosing people who are quiet or less worldly than me & I feel I do this so I can be the good one, I choose a husband with no morals maybe so I looked good? All this is slowly starting to dawn on me & I’m making strategies on how to avoid this in future. So glad I have separated from my husband he was a loser, liar & cheat.
Well I’m back out in the world again and now so alert I’m noticing all sorts of things – I was doing well setting clear boundaries for the men around me until I noticed one or two took exception to it and took it personally – one retaliated, one went in a mood and presumed the boundary was set for another reason other than I just need my space right now AND to trust slowly – very slowly – but at the same time another male close by to all of this – gave me something I never asked for.
I knew this disturbed me but not quite why at the point of receiving – I mean its what we are supposed to want isn’t it – a giving partner – and have been fighting myself since because I can’t stop thinking about how lovely he is – only before this I never noticed him and certainly didn’t think about him. He probably knows I have not been treated well by others before – as the others probably do……..
And I realised – I have been here before – other men have hooked me this way by me being so grateful for any sign of kindness or care from them (due to my own private hole where the kindness, care and respect would normally be) and perceive giving me anything I never actually asked for or need – from a flower to a bike – as getting my needs met to feel cared for, loved and respected – only it isn’t – its a fantasy I build in my head based on the inaccurate pick and choosing of information I choose to focus on to ‘prove’ the fantasy I want.
My actual need isn’t to be given things I don’t need before trusting who they are and what their intentions are and the reality of my true feelings – no matter how it ‘seems’ to be kind and thoughtful and caring to me – it could possibly be male florence nightingaling??? – towards me! Giving me things in order for ? from me…..Interestingly the others who have also seemed to give me something I didn’t need at the beginning – I was co depending/florancing them also after being hooked by them doing it to me – and they all ended with a fantasy relationship illusion!
I accepted what he gave me – I felt obliged to – because I knew where I was in that culture ANY giving is encouraged – only simultaneously the culture where you only accept what you actually need and not just anything that is given, is not really encouraged or talked about enough or equally – its taken as a given that giving is an important thing to encourage and the boundary of what you accept is glossed over because of issues around accepting help etc…
I knew at the time I didn’t need it or want it – I couldn’t think what to do with it and froze on the spot – but I didn’t ignore it completely and its taken me three weeks but now I know why… Its a hook! – I’ve experienced it before! which has landed me feeling grateful and loving towards someone I would have had no interest or care in otherwise, who has no ability or interest in fulfilling any real needs I have either.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now I just have to get myself unhooked off another person – feelings and nagging doubts are so difficult sometimes to really see – especially if there is cultural or societal pressure to accept what is being given purely because it is seen as giving – but the context (ie your true needs) that you choose to receive something – is just as important – if not the most important. Knowing who you are and what you need – and accepting only that is essential.
Now I’m worried what he will want for his investment and what happens when he doesn’t get it…….
I work on the premise that I’m not going to be compatible with approx 95% of people I meet, whether that’s for friendship or for romance. It’s just not possible to be on the same page with every person I meet. We all want the same, a loving committed partner who accepts us for who we are and we can accept them for who they are or a good friend who we can get on with.
It really does take time to see if we are truly compatible for friendship or romance. The people who truly do like us will stick around, the rest won’t.
These days I’m noticing the red flags very soon after meeting someone and I know I’ve been down that track before and have no desire to go there again.
Maybe I’ll never meet a great guy and maybe I will, I just take each day as it comes.
Magnolia,
Wonderful to read yr post & to see how things have improved for you. I’ve been at BR these past 5 yrs too (but less so over past 18 mths) so can remember when the things you refer to were happening in real time. I’m glad you’re back in a more diverse & progressive town. You sound much happier.
In news on this end I turned down a self absorbed guy after only 10 days or so myself. In my case the person was bullish about seeming to want to measure me against his invisible checklist to see if I had enough status for his approval. I paid attention & skipped even the 1st date (after some facebook too & fro & 3 phone calls.) I paid attention to how I felt after talking to Mr Shite Didn’t Stink. Actually, it DID stink. Ta ta! And here I could sense that based on not even knowing me he was forming the opinion I was not good enough for me (but still wanting to go ahead. Maybe thinking for sex only? Who knows!) Turns out HE wasn’t good enough for me. Not even close. Things are clear when we know our true worth. Sounds like you know yours now. Good on you.
Teach 🙂
I think this is me. Please review and respond ladies and gentlemen as I really need some objectivity to help make some concrete decisions.
Met a guy online. Hit it off. We’ve hung out together for the last two weekends. We are long distance. Everything seemed great. I felt comfortable with him, etc. even though I ended up paying for everything because the mother of his youngest child transferred the last of his funds from his account using credentials of an old joint account that he failed to close. Has since closed it. (drama – she also seems violent towards him). Moving on, our communication styles though are different which I fine based on life experiences but in terms of expectations there is a complete valley between us. After the 1st weekend, I didn’t hear from him again until Monday or Tuesday. His pattern before is daily good mornings, long talks during the day, etc. I voiced my concern. We met up again the following weekend (the weekend where I paid for everything) and he went ghost for a week. He didn’t call me back til last Friday. Granted I was heated and I told him so and I voiced that I took his absence as an end to our relationship. His excuse was that he and the mother of his youngest got into an argument and broke his phone. I said but we’re both on facebook, you should’ve figured a way to reach me. I also mentioned that I saw him post the other day and know his pattern. He uses his phone to post, he doesn’t have a desktop. The conversation continued and of course he talked about making love and his feelings for me and that I should never think that he’d not speak just because (when he visits his hometown there is no good signal so he could justify that but the point is, there are landlines. If you’re serious about someone wouldn’t you make an effort to ensure that communication is completely open regardless of the circumstances?!). He then started talking about how he’s been thinking about coming up here to live with me. I just moved to Atlanta within the last 2 weeks and he’s in Montgomery. I asserted that of course I’ve never done that before and that we should take our time. Reevaluate in September as I didn’t think we were solid enough. Some comments he made during the convo: “I don’t need you feeling scared that it won’t work because when I come, I’m coming for good because I just believe that it will work.” “When I’ve stayed with other women, they’ll tell me one thing about how it will be and then when I arrive it totally changes”. I had mentioned that I honestly couldn’t say how it would be given Im used to living alone, etc. At any rate, have we spoken since Friday? Nope. I called several times Saturday with no answer. You basically tell me all of this to become a no show again. Not even a quick text to say I’m busy. Dunno. I keep thinking I’m ready for a relationship but I can’t seem to be smart enough to recognize red flags and run or to figure out why am i drawn and still curious about what ifs when I know that I am not experiencing the love, care, respect, and even trust that I long for? Do I need therapy? I think I’m just going to block him. I made that move earlier this week and then unblocked because I wanted to see if he’d reach out. He did and for what? I feel like he yearns to create this emotional roller coaster. Like there has to be a reason the ex acts the way she does towards him. Crazy maker maybe? Thanks for reading.
Mimh23, why do you need someone here to tell you to heed your instincts? This guy is playing you for everything he can get for free. Stop going to his well for your ego strokes. Do not spend another dime on him. And please put your foot down and tell him he is not moving in with you. If he comes to Atlanta he’d better have a place of his own to live. Do not let him in. If he surprises you on your doorstep, do not let him in, because you will never get rid of him AND he’ll treat you like $hit while living in your place.
Why are you so eager to use the word “relationship”? You two are not in a relationship.
Please don’t get more entangled with this leech. You’re lonely, and you want to feel connected to someone, but this man is a bad choice. Look for meetups in your area. They don’t give you late night phone calls, but they can ease daytime loneliness.
I think you should dump this guy for good. Tell him, “You know what? I realize you are not the man for me, so, I want to end things, while we still have good feelings for each other.” He’ll either accept it and bow out immediately, or try to ask you why. Don’t feel a need to explain why. Just say “I can see the handwriting on the wall. You and I are not compatible for the long haul. There’s a better match for both of us out there.” I’m telling you Mim, MOVE ON. There’s nothing to see here.
Mimi,
This guy has met you twice, so you’re basically total strangers, and he’s invited himself to move in with you?! HUGE RED FLAG. Run. Block. Don’t look back.
Why did he specify ‘the mother of his youngest child’? How many other mothers/other children are there? RED FLAG.
Not paying for anything at all is also a HUGE RED FLAG. A grown man should have a working credit card, even if his bank account is not accessible (and about that one: yeah, right). Why is there not a working credit card in his possession? Financially irresponsible? Or…
The possible real reasons you paid for the weekend: he’s testing you to see if you will take on the financial burden of supporting him and/or some unknown number of his children. Did he invite himself to move in to your home after you had paid his way?
But far more likely is that he is still married/in a committed relationship and doesn’t want his wife to see any red-flag credit card charges or unusual cash withdrawals. He may have been caught cheating before and now she is watching his financial moves closely.
Like Ready says, way too many more red flags to get into all of them. Run, far and fast. Therapy would be a far better investment in yourself than paying for that guy’s fun weekends away from the kids he fathered and is responsible for.
Oh! I justified my involvement with ‘I’m curious’ too!
Talked myself into a situationship with a just-wanna-have-fun guy with all sorts of excuses.
This guy has a lot of excuses doesn’t he?
Makes you want to ‘understand’? Be nice?
You are already compromising and going out of your way, how many calls on Saturday? Should have been none.
Sorry to be harsh, but I feel the afterburn of where this is headed, because I lived it. Take away the sex/physical attraction/hope for a relationship and what do you have? A guy with a lot of excuses, that’s all.
@mimi, wow, I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many glaring red flags in two dates before. I hope you run and run FAST. And then quickly get some help for yourself. The fact that you’re even still considering this guy as a remote possibility speaks volumes. Let me save you a lot of trouble: He’s going to fleece you financially — not to mention emotionally. But he’s already setting up the scenario of “I have no money because my horrible ex takes everything and by the way I’m going to come live with you — and, oh yeah, I’m going to disappear on you every few days too.” WTF?! RUN.
dear mimih23,
I am sorry but I can only think of one response, stop the drama now and run!
I stopped counting the red flags on the fifth line: just met; online; long distance; you ended up paying for everything because his ‘violent’ ex robbed him of his money; disappearing and wanting to move in with you… is he for real?
Time for a good reality check. And no contact.
Thank you ladies very much. I asked because I felt that if the opportunity were to come that I might still consider it which scares me the most. Having to get over that mental hurdle…and having to remind myself that I can’t help the situation, that curiosity will only kill/hurt me, that I deserve more than what I allow in my life, and that it’s ok to be alone.
NicW you are sit on with the following: “Makes you want to ‘understand’? Be nice?
You are already compromising and going out of your way, how many calls on Saturday? Should have been none.” I’ve been listening to videos on codependency and believe that’s part of my problem. I’m also glad that I asked you guys for comments. I had to come back to be reminded of the situation as he’s come back with his baby mama was evicted and just moved in, she’s got 3 weeks,etc. And today he claims he was going to visit this Saturday. Nope and nope. It’s so over. But I admit though, I needed the reminder…this and my diary.
Please let it be over Mimi… Seriously. I know we can make a lot of excuses for them and for us just to get some sort of …feeling that someone likes us. But even poor victim me took a stand at one point and decided to ..well,stop being a victim, stop the drama, be in charge of my finances and not always moan about everything in my life to someone else! This guy should do the same. You need time to yourself to realise if it smells like a rat than it must be a rat. Trust your instincts. If you can try to clarify things in your mind and heart and be healthy and aware and independent, surely this guy should do so too kind the adult that he supposedly is. I mean the future faking and the disappearing acts..come on. They are never that busy. I stayed with my oh so busy with the music industry boyfriend now ex obviously, for almost three years, always waiting to be called wanted listened to bla bla… Please don’t do the same mistake. Think. If you even remotely liked someone and respected them, would you not call text or behave differently? You know the answer. You do!!! Just allow yourself to be hurt by the truth that you yourself know. Please. Lots of hugs and keep on reading good stuff!
As the other wise women here have already said – way too many red flags to even consider any further involvement with this assclown.
The fact you had to call him repeatedly after 2 dates and he didn’t even have the courtesy to answer your call or send a text letting you know he couldn’t pick up the phone at that time is a HUGE red flag!
Mimi, you are a gorgeous goddess and don’t for a minute believe you have to settle for douchebags like this. Not. For. One. Single. Minute.
Don’t want to feel alone? Well I’ll tell you if you start seeing this guy you will feel more alone than you do now because he’ll be gallivanting around with who knows how many other babymamas, ignoring your calls, and completely disrespecting you while leaching off your $$$. Do you really want to feel alone AND used/abused as well? Hell NO!
Run Run Run as fast as you can – this guy has nothing you need or want.
It’s amazing how clear everything becomes with BR and the comments / responses. Oh so many times I made excuses for people who did not deserve even a pinch of my precious time! One comment that really stirred my emotions was the “let it slide” from Suki. I’m the same, I have always been a very relaxed person, u truely thought it was an asset but time and time again it has proven to be a liability, there are certain aspects, including a persons trustworthyness which u can simply never let slide. No good has ever come from shady behaviour. I have been standing my ground at work, in relations with men and trying to with my daughter, and it makes my life so much easier.
I keep rereading this post because it has been resonating with me so much. I love NML’s statement “We get the relationship that fits us at the time”. My last relationship was meant in part to finally allow me to learn about my part in it how how it progressed & finally went down. I have read so many books, Internet postings, on & on about the other person, the AC, the future faker. Yes he was all of those things, but I sure played my part & hated to look at my own behavior, the people pleasing, being Ms. Nice & pleasant most of the time. It makes me sick to look back at my behavior & see this. I am four weeks into NC & feeling pretty good most of the time. Reading over & over NML’s Breakup Commandments has helped tremendously along with so many insightful & just from the heart comments from all of you. I just received contact from my ex AC & read for the first time the post describing oneself as a “Locked Door”. It’s always a choice to lock that door & protect yourself! For my own emotional protection & growth I will be keeping that door locked to him. I am so thankful for having found Natalie’s website & for everyone who takes the time to share their experience in these heartrending types of relationships. The great message put out there time & again is that all this unnecessary pain CAN STOP if we put the action into place behind our hard earned knowledge. Placing my self first for the first time in a very long time, I thank you all ??
This is utterly brilliant. I admire how you cut through the circular argument we often get into with the Fates about ‘Why-oh-Why-oh-Why?’ when a relationship just won’t work – but we feel such very big, booming feelings. And I really appreciate how you present a holistic view – the other person’s reality and life path. It’s refreshing to take into account where they might be at in terms of their relationship schooling and journey. Thank you for this – I’ve shared it with my readers!
wow this website is a amazing, and such an insightful read. each blog is bang on and very inspiring. Even though it is making my grieving process even more questionable and complicated in terms of what my relationship actually was reading each blog!
how can you tell if the person is emotionally unavailable/as clown, full of baggage while stuck in the past or just not into you….
I’m a dude by the way haha go easy ladies