Over nine years of going to acupuncture plus osteopath and chiropractor sessions in recent years, has taught me that where we feel the pain (unless we’ve had a specific injury to that place) or what we think it’s about, isn’t necessarily the source of the pain. We might have pain in our feet but it can be coming down from back, hip and neck issues that we’ve ignored or certainly played down. Similarly, when life serves us up a series of painful lessons for us to finally heed something, there is a journey we travelled to get to that point. They don’t happen in isolation; there are contributing factors that we have had warnings about.
At the point where it’s too big to ignore and/or we’re now experiencing the pain from the fallout, we are responding not just to what happened but all the stuff that came before it.
I don’t mind telling you all that the last twelve months or so have been mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually challenging. Yesterday I twigged that when this period of my life began, ten years before in 2004, I was also being put through my paces. I’ve had to call on everything I’ve learned and talked about over almost ten years of writing Baggage Reclaim, in order to come out the other side of these challenges. I’m still standing.
After previous challenging experiences, I’ve felt like more of a grownup and one of the things that’s come out of going through the wringer is recognising that I’m always growing up. There is no destination. I keep evolving. There’s a fluidity. But you know what? It’s damn feckin annoying because there’s a part of me that’s thinking, Ah for feck’s sake! Surely that’s me all sewn up on that front, and then I learn about it from a different angle and essentially get my self-knowledge and self-awareness put to the test.
Like me, many BR readers have gone through the grief that comes with having a kid inside of you that has been wounded by past experiences. Throw in difficult adult experiences such as relationships (romantic and otherwise), that are based on patterns honed in childhood and we have had some work to do in order to evolve and to loosen the grip of the past.
Over this last year, I’ve experienced challenging maternal relationships – mother and in-law – that came on the back of a series of things (crazy landlords, buying our new home, crazy work person, brother in mental health institution, brother-in-law hospitalised, father briefly popping into my life after a 2 now 3-year absence and the list goes on). You hope to have time to recover from things but each time I started to get my groove back, the next thing came. After a Christmas Day Dynasty/Dallas-style showdown between the mothers which resulted in some painful revelations, it brought up feelings that I hadn’t experienced for quite some time. I was furious. I felt so betrayed. I felt so disappointed and it amplified an inner whisper that the grownups (as in family elders), just can’t be frickin’ trusted.
I discovered that a part of me was angry for being “the fool” and for trusting. It brought up long forgotten feelings about being The Scapegoat and Piggy In the Middle.
I discovered that this series of things had activated this old feeling of wondering why all of this stuff was happening to me. What have I done? Why the f*ck is all of this stuff happening to me? IT’S NOT FAIR!
I discovered that a small part of me had looked to be mothered and as a result, I took my eye off the ball.
I discovered that yeah, things had happened, people had pissed me off etc, but that my pain was lingering because somewhere along the line I was taking what they did and rubbing my face in it and giving me a hard time. I briefly took up my old habit of looking for validation; wanting my pain and my point of view to be acknowledged and held by ‘everyone’. For a few weeks, I exhausted myself trying to be “perfect Nat” until I snapped.
I needed to acknowledge my pain and my point of view. I needed to acknowledge what all of this bloody stuff was telling me. I needed to acknowledge that this whole thing was taking its toll and that only I was in the position to do anything about it. I needed to get back to doing what I do best – being me. I ain’t no fool (said in my best Mr T voice).
I couldn’t do a great deal to change my outer circumstances because, well, I can’t do Jedi mind tricks. People are gonna be people – operating based on their own fears, motivations, beliefs etc and always outside of my control.
I had to go inward. I had to take care of me from the inside out. It immediately put me back in the driving seat.
I re-found compassion and self-care. I didn’t pretend that what happened was an oh-so-positive experience – most people are wide-eyed when I tell them I did an eight-and-a-half month stint of living with my mother-in-law (it was unavoidable due to circumstances outside of all our control) – but I did acknowledge the experience for what it was as well as what the hell it was here to teach me about so that I can move on from this chapter one day at a time.
The pain and the fallout has been a turning point.
Those repeater lessons that are happening are here to teach us something that’s going to turn out to be profoundly good for us and pay out dividends in the future if we are willing to put aside our egos and listen and learn now. We’re all guilty at times of feeling attached to being right but if it’s hurting us, we have to adjust our perspective and open up our minds.
It’s unrealistic to expect that because you think positive or take care of you that you won’t have challenges and hard times. Plenty of good things will happen in life when you come from a place of love, care, trust and respect, but you will still have to deal with life’s inevitable bumps as well.
While hanging with one of my closest pals, we both acknowledged how outrageous our recent mother experiences had been but that we actually needed these. We had things to face that we’d been unaware of the need to until we were in the thick of it. How else do we find out what we need to learn? When we ignore the lessons, they increase in size and pain.
One thing I’ve learned about grief related to your parents and anything that trips on old wounds is that grieving is something that’s done from different angles. You think that you’re ‘done’ and then something else comes along that forces you to grieve it in a different way and to strengthen and tighten up. Father’s Day brought up grief feelings for the first time in a long time but I observed it, took care of me, and the feelings and thoughts passed very quickly.
I could fear what the future holds for me and my extended family but I don’t have to be afraid of uncertainty if being sure of myself and having a willingness to take care of me is at the foundation of my life. I’m just going to trust them for who they are (less surprises…) and keep trusting myself.
I’m not exactly eager to go through painful experiences but I accept that pain is here to guide me (and you) on what we need to be and do for ourselves.
Sometimes we don’t realise how we betray ourselves until we feel the pain of the fallout of our dealings with those who betray us and let us down. We don’t have to mark them as ‘bad people’ but we do have to keep circling back to whether we are honouring ourselves. I’ve learned that we don’t actually get mad at us for living who we truly are; we get mad because we know where we’ve digressed and we also know where we knew what we needed to be and do but didn’t pay attention or shied away from stepping up because we were enjoying something now or afraid. We will all slip at times but we all have the potential to learn from the experiences. They become turning points for growth and change.
Your thoughts?
And before anybody asks, I used all of the stuff I talk about here on BR and BR School including Unsent Letters, self-soothing, journaling, exercise (mainly yoga), and self-care practices to help calm my busy head (lying flat for ten minutes), improved sleep routine, People Pleasing Diet. I will be sharing more insights from this last year’s experiences.
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Wow Nat. Things have been tough eh?
But you know you are right – sometimes we need to go through things we thought were finished to really put them to bed.
Yes grief is also not straight forward. It goes up and down and sideways sometimes too.
I sometimes think the more ” work” we do on ourselves the more stuff we will continue to encounter because well, we are so aware of things now that we find it harder to delude ourselves.
This is good. This is how we grow and how we live our lives awake and conscious. It’s a blessing 🙂 As you mention, living our lives this way will attract an abundance of love and good fortune too. The challenges keep us alert to the good.
I am back in my hometown for a few months and received news about the abusive ex first day back. It was news I would rather not have found out. It was emotional and brought up crap I thought was buried. I had to face it. I’m moving away and in a rather exciting direction permanently from Autumn, and I think I needed to reach further clarity on what I went through – still do – in order to move forward with a clean slate.
Within a few days I also received good news from the man who has my heart at the moment. Him and I have faced many challenges and still seem to healthily come out the other side. I guess this was my reminder of how far I have come.
So keep going nat and others. The challenge itself is a sign of forward movement.
Bx
To Natalie,
Im very sorry for your pain and the situations and circumstances which although out of your control were hurtful or stressful just the same. Just know that your experiences and growth and your unbelievably generous gift of sharing your wisdom and experiences has changed my life for the better and most likely will make the difference in wether what might have been a life full of sorrow from ignorance or (after you teaching me) one of knowledge, stength and hopefully one day a healthy relationship based on what i learned. All Id learned before I came to BR was that if you let them, relationships with unhealthy characters can destroy your life.
You are brilliant. I wish you happiness, calm, peace and satisfaction in all you do. You deserve it. Thank you.
Wow.. I’m in midst of going through this painful cycle of dealing with rejection from somebody who I love and trust. I am struggling with realizing I can’t force somebody to love me. I think I have bent over backwards and this person has sent mixed messages for the past 2 years. It’s funny how when it rains it pours. It seems as if when you are down more rejection comes my way. I know the lesson here is I need to love me and provide my own sense of validation. It’s hard to get over these feelings but I am trying.
My thoughts are that you are a great person and I would hug you if I could. You’ve helped so many people, and part of it will come around to you if you need it. Best, V.
Nat,
Hugs to you for these rough times and overcoming them! So proud of you for self care and compassion! I can so relate to these “growing pains”! I’m a Hospice nurse and work close to grief on a daily basis. It’s equally terrifying and fascinating. I have two friends going through losses that have hit close to home because they remind me of my own grief experience. Sometimes get a little prickly. I’m growing too fast, outgrowing old people and habits, and that in itself is a loss (even if it’s positive)! So thankful for your sharing! It means the world to know there are like-minded individuals who are looking to grow.:)
Natalie, you are the most amazing person. I admit, sometimes I have felt that I was’t living up to the standards you taught for yourself and for all of us on self care and love. I’ve felt like I was the bad kid at the back of class who was falling behind. You have been a measuring stick for my own progress (No pressure!! lol). I am sorry to hear of your personal struggles. It’s inspiring that you would share with us how even the best of us can trip over the bumps that lie in front of us, but it doesn’t mean we have failed completely. I have been hard on myself just lately after slipping up. I righted myself eventually but just going down a path when really I SHOULD of known better has made me angry at myself. It’s comforting to hear from someone who is so self aware that it’s about learning and finding our center when things go awry, that it’s human. It’s tiring trying to right myself so much that I am perfect. Not gonna happen. It’s not about being a failure and feeling hopeless or punishing ourselves over someones else’s asshole behavior. It’s about making lemonade out of lemons. Why sit and suck lemons if we really don’t need to.
Hugs Nat.
this week has been a crazy week that has brought out the pain and humiliation I faced in the past. Two incidents mainly, first the ass clown I love and trusted who went on to cheat on me got married on July 4th to the girl he dumped me for. I have to acknowledge it was a huge slap in the face. I wanted it to be anyone BUT her. Not the one with which he humiliated me. But lo and behold they are now married. Even when he swore up and down he would never get married again, never buy a house and never have kids. He’s negated two out of three. Saving grace is I never built him up so she getting the same assclown I had. I wish her luck. She will need it. Also she had the ugliest wedding dress ever. 🙂 Milly pop art printed strapless dress..Barf and I’m usually a Milly fan.
The other incident was a Best friend who disappeared on me 8 years ago suddenly reemerged. Back then I tried to contact her for 6 months to find out why she had suddenly cut me out of her life. I was treated with silence. I felt humiliated and hurt but I moved on but she back.
this weekend I learnt that she cut contact because her husband did not like me. Now they are getting divorced and she wants to be friends again. I’m not sure I want to go there again and reopen that chapter. I guess I have old wounds to lick, feeling to analyze and soul soothing to do. Hugs to all.
*Loved not Love..Ugh!
Can someone please explain WHY these people are assclowns? I think the reason it is so hard to let go Dee is that we do not, cannot comprehend their behavior. I had my first run in with what i believe to be a narcisstic assclown the past two years. True to BR facts there were early red flags, increased chopping, finally verbal and emotionable abuse -all observed with stunned disbelief by me followed by efforts to make ‘things’ right. Got some distance = got some perspective. Still dont get it. I dont get people who lack empathy and seem to get a kick out of escalating and berating. In my mind I have it tied back to internal anger, internal resentment presenting itself. But Im no psychologist. I wish someone could explain, help me understand…how are people so cruel to others they are involved and spend time with?
Charlotte,
The answer is easy, no empathy. They are short wired. There are lots of websites about N-holes who do have feelings (regarding themselves) of course. We cannot ever understand them nor should we be trying to (that’s what they hope you’ll do so we can give them “poor you” excuses). They will sit there and let empathetic people project all their sad reasons for acting awful to you.
To clarify, my above comment relates to as*clowns and psychopaths. From what ive read and experienced the latter just sees people as objects and you do not want to be the object standing in the way of what they want or dont want. Such as the case of drew peterson and child support.
It really is them thats the bad egg , we just have to learn how to keep our defenses up.
Exactly freedme. Many of these people are short wired (not exactly sane but not criminally insane) and there is no rational way of dealing with them. Anyone who has come under the influence and control of narc’s and assclowns etc can attest to how difficult it is to even get away from them when you realise how damaged they are.
Then there is the equally hard part of putting yourself back together, it can take years.
Taking care of ourselves first and foremost is so important. Taking the time to let people unfold before getting too involved with them in any way is also mandatory. Everyone can be on their best behaviour for two to three months but after that the cracks will start to appear and then the real person starts to emerge, that can be scary stuff.
I saw it with the AC I was involved with, he was fantastic for about 3-4 months and I was madly in love with who I thought he was. I was manipulated, chopped and thrown crumbs while he blew hot and cold. He was in reality a nasty, bad tempered controlling soul-less cold hearted spiteful SOB. I lived for years under the fantasy of who he was when I first met him and always thought that man would magically reappear one day, he never did and never would.
All the red flags and signs were there for me to get out and I ignored them all because I was “in love”.
If I ever meet another guy I like the look of, I will make sure that he is who I think he is first before getting too involved. And never ignore the red flags that says I should leave.
@Pauline/Freedme,
“I lived for years under the fantasy of who he was when I first met him and always thought that man would magically reappear one day, he never did and never would.”
I am scared that I am doing ^this^ and not just accepting the simple fact that he just left. That should be easy enough. But it’s the hardest thing ever.
Say Something
Perhaps you can look at this from a different angle. All our relationships teach us something about ourselves. When I started looking at my past relationships they all fell into the same pattern and I was the common denominator. It’s not that I did anything wrong it was that we weren’t a good fit together and I kept trying to fit that square peg into that round hole. What was I thinking? God knows!
If something is meant to be, it will be, if not, it won’t.
For his own reasons he didn’t see you as a good fit in his life, that’s his choice to make the same as you make your own choices and take responsibility for your own actions. I’m sure that somewhere down the track you’ve broken up with a guy because you didn’t have strong enough feelings for him, or more commonly, never known that some guy really liked you because you never noticed him. This happens a lot.
If he was the man for you, he would still be there. He isn’t the man you thought he was and isn’t your BGE. Your ruminating over nothing, there is no substance to this relationship you thought you had, he’s gone.
You are beating yourself bloody over nothing.
Say something,
But being scared from a distance is better than being with him and allowing his manipulation to carry the day with crumbs. I think wanting them to go back to being who he/she wasn’t in the first place is common. As I have read it over and over on this site and others. I wanted that also. Heck yeah I still do sometimes although not as much now. That was the place where all lifes troubles went away. I know that my other choice felt sucky, it means the death of my fix. The new reality. Even though I want things to be like they were before the big discard (which was the situation for me). BUT, I cannot ignore the new reality of his actions and words not matching. I guess the whole situation is like grief and for everyone it’s different. Your progress may be different than mine. Grief is so personal for each one of us. One thing said to me might be the ah ha moment to turn a corner to the next step in your healing.For you it may be something else. For instance for me, I started thinking about that “good time” up to the day he discarded and at some point realized he was sucker punching me. He KNEW he was going to do it (said afterwards he knew a month prior to) but put me in a situation to be intimate with him right up till Christmas day so it hurt my dignity and that made me angry.
Mostly Stopping his ability to manipulate me in my increasingly weakened state and eliminating my exposure to devastating repeated rejections after blowing hot has provided me with a level of clarity to at least recognize he is like a drug dealer offering a crack pipe. Sure it’s great each time you take a hit but you know it will make your teeth fall out. And so does he.
When I get to missing his “loving touch” I remind myself of the facts and try hard to follow it up with right away with a more appropriate feeling such as “what he did makes my skin crawl”. I think Natalie actually did a article on this, I just cannot remember the title. What is it that people say when someone goes postal on people? “he seemed like such a nice guy”. But history shows that he won’t be remembered that way, he’ll be remembered by the bad things and all the people he hurt. THE BAD things ARE your new reality and damage done by it will be the reality you will be stuck with. The more influence they have over you or the more you are exposed the deeper you sink. I really believe this now. I believe It’s compounded. THAT IS THE DANGER, because when he is long gone, you’re left with a bunch of garbage thoughts you have clean up and that is really freaking hard. This is where we put on our big girl pants. Next time someone (i.e. my mom) comes to me with “if you were more positive… and changed your thoughts.. blah blah.. ” lol… WE can attest that we actually did what most people attempt via stupid self affirmation books.
Also I find that another thing I have to do is let and trust my higher self, I have to trust that all the people here have similar experiences and even though I thought it wasn’t so, I was already proved wrong by what Natalie said would happen. I have to trust my friends who are seeing things from a safe distance and THEY have my best interest in mind. He on the other hand deserves no such trust. Good luck. I think it was Einstein The only reason for time is so that everything doesn’t happen at once. With the new knowledge we are so much further along than before. We may not realize it right now but we are.
Thanks
WOW Pauline and Freedme!
As I read this, I am really glad that I spend time educating myself on BR. I had a monster for sure but OMG OMG it could have been so much worse. Some of these men have unleashed a wrath that it can take years to heal from. I will never be the same in terms of how I approach a relationship. I am more educated now.
How can someone who is engaged know that their fiancé is on Match.com, but out helping select wedding venues? Is this the ultimate form of future faking? The one thing I will not DO is beat myself for not knowing what this cad was doing at night when I went to bed. This bitch was a different person during the daylight hours. Multiple personalities. The one creeping at night was cut the second I discovered his dirt. When he was doing this I still wonder if he was someone how laughing (behind my back) about what he was getting away with. I had NO IDEA he was cheating.
Some days when I read on BR about the pain and the treatment others receive it takes me back down memory lane. I try to keep my focus on educating myself and not on rehashing and opening old wounds. My goal is recovery. I am improving. I have ACCEPTED my reality.
Pauline you wrote:
Then there is the equally hard part of putting yourself back together, it can take years.
WOW. How did you start putting yourself back together again? It sounds like this has torn you apart emotionally. I hope you are healing.
MJ
Thanks MJ. It has taken me about 3 years to get to a much happier state, they key was getting rid of years of accumulated baggage where the assclown turned into a blessing in disguise and was the actual catalyst for the changes I needed to make to myself. Relationship insanity, doing the same things over and over again and expecting a different result.
@MJ,
“How can someone who is engaged know that their fiancé is on Match.com, but out helping select wedding venues? Is this the ultimate form of future faking?”
Yes, it’s horrible future faking. But you are doing great and staying positive! I knew you think I was fortunate that BGE eventually told me he was dating someone, but that was 4 wks later, and ONLY because I reached out for his serious support, because he said he hadn’t given up on us just 13 days earlier. That was the last text exchange we ever had. In-person, the last time I saw him, he told me, verbatim, ‘I’m not actively searching”. WTF maybe had you asked, you’d have received a d-bag answer like that. I’m so sorry about how you were treated, but I’m in awe of how you’re coping. You have helped me tremendously, even with tough questions.
Please stay positive. The bad dreams are not real, they’re residual hurt. Your feelings are real, but the dreams are not.
Loved your AIG comment below. Sending you a virtual hug 🙂
Hi Say Something,
It has been a weekend of bad dreams. I know it must just be par for the course and this will end.
I still would have preferred that he told me the truth but he didn’t. So, I had to get my own closure.
Try not to be so hard on yourself about your healing process. It takes time. But try to do projects and enjoy yourself in some small way. I know it is easier said then done. He has zapped the fizzle right out of your life. He has depleted the hope you had and your expectations for finally having a brighter future seem far fetched.
Yes spending weekends alone sucks. When I travel I never tell people I am alone for safety reasons. It would still be nice to have someone else to enjoy things with. One day.
In the back of your mind do you hang on because you think he is coming back? I don’t want to ever see or hear from my ex again. A real apology would have been nice after all those years together. But still daily I have to ACCEPT what he did. The way he ran around at night while engaged has me still shaking my head in disbelief. I have said it before I just will never know how long (ass face-freedme’s name for him) he was doing it. When I found out I called him a POS and sent him on his way.
Is your therapist helping you? I just sit here and wonder if a professional (not massages or the smells from Jo Malone candles) would have some how helped me sort it all out in a different way. The bottom line is I was dealing with a liar and a cheat. So, I made up my mind not to let him destroy my HOPE for a better future. Recovery takes time.
I want MY LIFE back that I had before him. I was a happy SOUL. I get excited planning my vacations but when the plane takes off it is just me. I have all my plans about what to do. I enjoy it but still it is me. I get what you felt at the concert. It is a desire to have that closeness with someone special.
When I travel I see couples all the time. I even see groups of girlfriends. I walk into to concerts and blend in with crowds and dance. If you took an aerial shot of the venue you wouldn’t know I was all alone. LOL. I am dancing with other people just like I came with them. It is called selectively blending with the crowd.
Try not to consistently question what you did wrong. You seem to blame yourself because he decided to date someone else. Now, I look at the end of my engagement the way I do with my business deals. It helps me logically process it. Sometimes clients don’t renew their contract with me or my consulting work is just DONE. I don’t cry or beg them to take me back. I professionally close out and transition to a new project. Sure it can be stressful. Can you imagine me standing outside of their doors knocking and begging for more business? LMAO. What if I just sat at home all day wondering why they ended the contract? No I move on and look for new business. It would be wasted energy to stew about why the contract ended because the deal is DONE. So, I say self you can not wonder why this ass was at the HOtel humping around. He wanted some strange new xxxxx. OK.
As I sit here this quiet Sunday morning ALONE I can tell you this for FACT. No matter who ends a business deal with me I can ALWAYS get more work (MORE MONEY). I have what it takes professionally to secure work which grants me a level of security. And I have NO DOUBT about that. Contracts always end and I walk away knowing something is next. I can assure you the work is coming. Zero doubt about it.
What makes me a tad bit sad is I cannot tell you with the same level of confidence that I am going to have another relationship. I wish I could say it and feel it in my SOUL like I do about work. I can’t right now. Maybe my wounds are too deep. Maybe my confidence was shattered. Cause I am almost certain I use to believe that when I walked into a room you couldn’t help but notice me. The lies and deception helped place in a MISFIT status. It robbed me of my confidence. So, I get 100% of what you say. This is why I connect with you.
I saw a beautiful lady at one client site. She was On-line at work looking over dating sites (yes while at work) and taking tons of selfies. Glamour gurl. She was trying to hunt down a man with the same level of intensity I use to pursue a new contract. It was a daily routine for her. I would stop by her office and watch with amazement. She also kept me updated and she did in fact land someone. She appears to be happy and proudly showed me a new hand bag he bought for her just this week. She said my BOYFRIEND got this for me. I refuse to use on-line dating. After I saw my creepy ex on-line and the other creeps that you pointed out that haven’t seen daylight or a mirror I wanted to gag. I JUST CAN’T DO IT.
I am raising a glass of champagne to cheer you on for doing a weekend project. I wish I had the same level of confidence in dating that I have in my professional life. I think the stories here on BR paint the cruel reality for me. There are so many MEN that are just lying POS. It is possible to find that needle in the haystack if you have the patience. This is almost equivalent to digging through a over crowed clothing sales rack. I can’t. I don’t have that kind of patience. Do you?
I am exhausted. (oh I will discuss my thoughts later on Tilly- Joyce Mitchell the married prison seamstress that the media said was doing two inmates-in the news they discussed her self esteem issues. At last check her husband Lyle is standing in her corner in spite of knowing they had planned to slip him a pill. I need a man like that. His love can’t be shattered. Till death do us part. Nothing can deter him. LMAO.)
MJ
MJ,
Glad you’re up on the prison break news also. Federal prison employee. Working with killers. Known, dangerous, violent, maximum security murderers. One killed a police officer. One dismembered his boss. I need to watch more ‘Orange is the New Black’. There is obviously a HUGE psychological issue here, beyond that what she did is purely criminal. If the husband truly didn’t know, he must be blown away.
Ok… The difference between dating and business. Yes, huge difference. Part of what I do involves recruiting and hiring, and sometimes people leave. Although it can be disappointing and annoying, I DO NOT take it personally, although I am required by (govt) contract to take responsibility. Messed up, and I am required to develop corrective plans showing how we will achieve 100% in everything, always. Yep. So I’ve learned to report back exactly what they want to hear. Yes, because I can always detect that someone has personal or health issues in an interview without asking illegal questions? Umm, ok. So I’ve learned to deal with THAT even though perfection is expected. So at my job, I am expected to see every potential red flag in a person. Pretty ironic, huh? I’ve gotten pretty hardcore with quitters. If someone approaches with a problem, I listen, and offer ideas and support. If someone comes to me with quitting words, BYE. Fill out your paperwork. Bet that surprises you!
I am done with online dating. It’s been a few weeks, and I think partly I viewed my doneness as a failure. But I’m done. And do I think BGE will come back? First, and this is all I will say about him, although he was with his ‘new girl’ he was still actively logging into match for months. I stopped checking in Feb. You ask the hardest questions. My FANTASY was that he would, and he’d apologize, and have the best explanation that made sense of everything I’ve cried about and blamed myself for in the last (almost) 14 months. But that’s just a f@cked up dream, because he chose to eliminate me and never look back. EVER. <– THAT is partially why I have believed that he must think something so horribly of me to never second guess his decision and never want to talk to me or see me again, It will NEVER make sense. And it's so different than work because it IS a personal, intimate betrayal.
I haven't gone out dancing, but there is plenty I do alone. You sound like you are getting your world back together. I've been awake since 3:00AM. At least I'm not waking up 5-7 times a night anymore. Just 1-2 now. But STILL!! Have cut therapy back to alternate weeks. She's smart, but I'm all over the place with things… I'm so resistant to accepting. I'm so stubborn and difficult. I still can't believe this is my life, because I'm not LIVING it. Still sifting through the wreckage of the fallout.
SS, the fact that you are resisting accepting your situation leads me to think that you are making the decision to hold on to your pain, whether consciously or unconsciously, for a reason. There is another way to look at your situation which might be a revelation to you, so I encourage you to watch these two short videos from one of the great wisdom teachers of our time on the subject of betrayal and being lied to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnd_3AidGXo
Thank you for sharing Wiser,
I have heard of his book, ‘The Power of Now’ but have not read it. No offense to you at all, but I found it difficult to take him seriously as he constantly laughed while delivering his message. I understand about the ego not wanting to be wrong. I get that part. For him to say, well don’t look at the sleeping with another woman as a betrayal of his wife, instead reframe by saying he had a few drinks and saw someone attractive and went for it because he lacks consciousness, and then should be forgiven so she can move past it is crap to me. He knows not what he does? I can’t think that way. Maybe I will never achieve that level of enlightenment, but that’s ok. If this way of enlightened thinking means accepting others’ horrific behavior by believing that they didn’t really have the awareness to make a better choice, I just can’t. I also understand that just complaining is not going to change a situation for what it is. I believe that. Would my mind be more at peace if I could adopt this belief system? Absolutely, because to me it’s like taking a violation of a 10 and saying ehh, it’s just a 2. For me it would be suppressing and undermining what I care about and value so much. I DO appreciate you sharing and thinking of me, but I guess he just isn’t my style. Maybe someone may lack awareness that a comment or joke was deemed offensive by another. But a purposeful decision to lie, manipulate, deceive, cheat, harm your partner is way more than lack of awareness. It’s just self-serving, thoughtless, cruel, and a choice. I guess that brought up some anger. Again, thank you for sharing this view. I need another way.
Hi Say Something,
I watched the videos too. I just could not get pass his laughing like someone slipped him a brownie laced with something. Maybe you laugh like a jack ass about the plumber not showing up, but not when someone you have trusted and invested years of your life into betrays your trust. I have never used drugs , but I would have had to on something that lifted me from earth to laugh it off.
It was like he was mocking the person who sent in the question. He said in a mocking tone in a strange voice HE BETRAYED YOU. That man betrayed you. Then he says that alone sounds heavy.
Troll betrayal is heavy. He was dismissive about the impact it can have on someone. Oh hell you just have to dismiss what my ex did because he wasn’t at that higher state of consciousness when he was sleeping around on me. He didn’t care that I lost a significant amount of MONEY because of his fricken lies. He never gave a thought to given me a STD because of his state of consciousness. Really?
He further down plays how you should respond to being betrayed. You shouldn’t take it personal. Why? Cause he could and will do it to someone else. More hysterical laughter. Then he says it was my EGO that caused me all this hurt. It is as if he suggests I should have said it is all good what my ex did. Then you simply move on. No my ego took care of his azz first and then I sent him on his damn way. My EGO was out of control -called him a lying piece of shit and said I never wanted to see your face.
I could have never watched this when I was first betrayed I would have been seething. At that time, I didn’t like seeing other people laughing (it was strictly forbidden in my space-lol). I am laughing right now just like Ekhart Tolle. What these videos did do for me is make me laugh. Sorry but my laughter is from how he is making a crap load of money by saying absolutely NOTHING (and laughing about it). I died laughing about the plumber not showing up.
Wiser what really cracked me up is the look on the faces of some people in the audience. It was as if they were thinking WTF is he saying. Thanks for sharing it was thoughtful.
MJ
SS, I understand it’s not everybody’s style but I think it’s great you are open to listening. Not everyone is open to considering other viewpoints. His point is that other people’s actions are just that – their actions, their mentality, their immaturity, their lack of character, their lack of decency, or whatever, and it’s not a reflection of YOU. Once you get that, their ability to hurt you diminishes. The goal is to get from the sentence “He doesn’t want me, he could do these awful things to me, so there’s something wrong and lacking with ME.” to “He doesn’t want me, he could do these awful things to me, so there’s something wrong and lacking with HIM.”
SS and MJ, I would never have suggested the videos if I thought they would make you feel worse, so I am very sorry if that is the case! I am very familiar with E.Tolle, his style and mannerisms and I’m quite sure he wasn’t mocking anyone, but I can see how it would appear that way to someone who had not seen him before.
His message however is still relevant in that we often heighten our own pain by the stories we tell ourselves about our situations and the kind of thinking we indulge in. It reminds me of the truth of this famous saying, which is worth pondering – “It’s not life’s tragedies that ruin our lives. It’s our own tragic response to the tragedies that ruins our lives.”
^Also^, I think watching the videos felt like minimizing, which, along with some blatant denial/gaslighting, lying, and even more future-faking and non-response, is what I experienced at the end. I get that being cut off in traffic isn’t personal. But sometimes it IS personal, when someone makes a choice how to poorly treat another person. And yes, now it’s all on me to feel better about it.
He just doesn’t need to mock people the way he did in the video. He is so dismissive. If there was a take away for me it is about EGO. But the messenger was not reaching me with his other thoughts. It brought back some painful days for me.
Sane people know what being decent to someone is. The lies we were told could have been avoided. These people just thought too much of themselves.
Its been a while since i read / heard Tolle; I find the book more powerful. I agree him laughing over cheating is silly. And I have heard some people say that if you meditate too much, you become a bit too detached, e.g. why take care of my kids, why go to work. Things stop mattering to you. Thats something to avoid. At the same time, a person like him shows us that there is a different way to be precisely because he is so so extreme.
I would take what he said a bit differently; e.g. if you find someone cheating on you, walk away. Do what needs to be done, lawyer up, detach, disengage, walk away. I think he points out that we cling on to situations that dont work because we are hooked, we are telling and retelling to ourselves painful stories about who we are. And that is true. If you take what he is saying not in terms of ‘cheating is ok’ but rather ‘cheating is a sign that things are no longer working and not a sign that you’re damaged, so just accept accept accept and take action in line with your values’.
Also, imagine that both parts of a couple were living how Tolle recommends; then cheating wouldn’t happen. Instead if one person wanted to break up, they would; it would be painful, and it would hurt etc., but pain and hurt can be authentic emotions and needn’t be compounded through mind effery etc.
Hello Say Something,
I wanted to share an article that I read. I read things that I think will help me continue to move forward. My main goal is to find PEACE in my life. I am not in support of everything she is saying. I think she has found a way to cope with a major loss in her life. Point- we all have to find our way to cope. No one way is right. So, you have to do what works for YOU.
This is the link for the article;
http://tinybuddha.com/blog/accepting-the-loss-of-a-loved-one-and-finding-peace-again/
This passage struck me because when my engagement was suddenly ended this is how I felt. My peace and my universe was distorted. BIG TIME. Fact my universe is still distorted. I had invested in a future that someone else knew was not real. The one thing that continues to haunt me is-how long was he doing this?
Here is the passage:
When we lose someone we love, it distorts our universe and our peace, and nothing seems right. There is a future that will never exist and a past that we want to go back to, and we feel like we can’t be further from the present moment and reality.
I know she is talking about a different kind of loss, but I think this is what I hear in some of your posts. Maybe we both wish there was a way to undo what happened. It shocks the system to have this loss when we were being told such a different story. LIES. The only other peace I am focusing on is accepting loss so we can move forward.
Nothing can bring them back. Nothing can “undo” anything that happens in life. We have to move forward. Without accepting the change, we make it much harder to do so. We can’t find peace because we feel that something is broken or wrong, but it isn’t; it is just different.
MJ
I have too many thoughts and feelings to organize into a coherent comment right now. The tone of that video to me was a detached, arrogant, dismissive, cavalier, condescending mockery of a sensitive subject.
Wiser, I like the way you summarized the msg you were intending to share; however, it’s not what I got from the video.
To expand on what I previously wrote, and what MJ said, comparing a response to plumbers not showing up and road ragers cutting someone off in traffic with betrayal of trust in an intimate relationship is ludicrous. The kid forgot to pay for the pack of gum in his hand. The armed robber tied up the clerk, threatened his life, and stole the office safe. Extreme example I’m using, but they’re both stealing. One is minor and absent-minded. Even if someone purposefully steals a pack of gum, it’s ‘wrong’ but it’s not a violent felony.
Ok, and this 2011 post by Natasha illustrates deception: https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/the-importance-of-holding-your-own-in-dating-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-303690
Yes, and now we must choose HOW to respond in a BETTER way than before finding BR.
All those words I used to describe the video… Exactly the same tone of BGE when he so ‘enlightenedly’ cut me out of his life. He didn’t laugh like that, but the rest, the complete lack of feelings and telling me sometimes we have to be logical and not emotional, sometimes THIS just happens in dating??? So if BGE and ET share this same enlightened, masterful, worldly style, I don’t even know what to think. Something feels so wrong.
wiser, mj and SS,
I too watched the videos and I can kind of see what he is talking about as a topic in general. Although his way of presenting it wasn’t for me, Im glad it was helpful to wiser. The topic in part deals also with changing how you think about what has happened in the past, it doesnt have to be betrayal, it could be any life trauma and then training yourself to remember it in a less harmful way. Tony Robbins (i love that guy, his method of delivery works for me) talks about doing this. I think this man is also as wiser says trying to teach how to change how we view something by lessening the impact but I also understand MJs ans SS reaction because this guy may not be including situations of preditory behaviour of Ns and others who intentionally and knowingly orchestrate hurt on others repeatedly. The very nature of the AC or N causes those in their snare to come away reeling in self doubt and questioning whether what he did was intentional
i.e “could someone really be that bad, or is it me making it worse etc., etc, etc.”, so at the stage where your devestated, hurting like you just got hit by a frieght train then soon after the ex decides that isnt good enough maybe more games are in order, for some people the most constructive step towards healing is to say “this bastard betrayed me, that sob is a xyz”. when my situation happened, my best friend was astounded that I wasn’t outraged immediately and asked how in the world I could possibly even think it was my loss. At that time I hadnt gotten angry yet. And I now realize I should have been and as a result protected myself. In the long run its not good to feel anger in hate because its no longer about them, but each stage of healing has to run its course? Maybe this topic and its delivery which can help some depends on where someone is at in the grieving stage. maybe its like being ready to forgive someone or yourself, its complicated. hope im mot talking out of my butt here. In MJ situation for instance, i dont even know that man and I feel like Id like to wring his neck like a chicken. lol..Maybe i have anger issues, lol.
Hi Say Something,
Like you I was up at 3 a.m. twice over the weekend. The wonderful dreams again. Glad to hear your sleeping pattern is improving.
Has your therapist said anything about how you blame yourself for his actions? I m interested in how she has been helpful with helping you clear this hurdle.
You knowing that your x is online (ACTIVE) while dating someone new speaks volumes about this man. It is not just you that he is dishonest with. He is still being dishonest and he will continue to be. You should find some solace in knowing this. This man is actively prowling around on the internet while seeing someone. He is not happy and still looking. My x did this while engaged. You see the damage this can do to another person.
I read stories online all the time about women saying the person they are dating is still on a dating site. They want to know how to approach him about it. I know-STOP DATING him. This type will never be happy. I think you are in LOVE with who he was in the early phase of your relationship. You being Ms. Stubborn you want (your mind has a fixation on that wonderful guy) let go. You want what you saw initially. It was your ticket to having LOVE and someone special. What can you do to refocus your thoughts on your future?
In reality the REAL guy is the one prowling around the internet always looking for something better. Be honest with yourself. That cold asshole who was distant and telling lies in the end is really who he is. Suddenly you lived to fricken far away. Really? No he lacked the balls to say he was seeing other women. he was out exploring long before he ended it with you. We have to face that some men will never be honest about what they are doing.
I know it hurts when you think you had something good and it ends. It happens to so many people. It happened to me. I can tell you the my x is out this Summer having the time of his life because that is just how he lives. I bet your x is out on that bike having a good ole time. My point is -we should be doing the same.
Try to practice ACCEPTANCE. I still aim for this daily. I am still shaking my head about what happened. DISBELIEF. I wish I could say we had arguments everyday. We didn’t. I never saw it coming. We had great conversations about things like world events. We enjoyed each others company. Again, it does no good to rehash it because I made the decision to end the engagement. He attempted to lie to save our relationship. I did not buy his BS. I refused to continue. The trust was destroyed. I hear stories on BR of letting men come back. You get one Xuck up with me. There will be no do overs. BYE.
You said I am pulling my life back together. Yes but it sometimes feels lonely and like a little dark cloud is right above my head. So, stop blaming yourself. Stop looking for what went wrong. Stop worrying about fixing an ass. This month I am doing a 30 day plank challenge. It is tough. A strong core is the foundation for a strong body. Google 30 day plank challenge and do what works for you. Try it with me. You said in another post that your movement was decreasing. Pick it back up. I am there with you. Movement is the key to help dealing with tough emotional times. So move it Ms. Stubborn.
MJ
MJ,
It is reinforced in therapy that blaming myself is not helpful. I don’t really blame myself for DOING/ NOT DOING anything, but rather for just not BEING enough. Hearing stories of his previous relationships, it appeared so obvious to me why they didn’t last. Then I come along all ‘normal’ and ‘positive’ and receive what appeared to be normal and positive back at me and he quit, telling me he doesn’t know WHY his relationships never work out. I (wrongly) thought he didn’t use or had canceled his online account. I had canceled mine. Lesson learned. Like you, no arguments, but instead great conversations. All that was good and wonderful didn’t matter. Because good and wonderful doesn’t quit. And I know that’s the bottom line.
And I think Pauline commented, that I’d probably broken up with people in the past. Well yes, but I never pretended to want long-term, or a future, or told them all the things I wanted to do with/for them, faked intimacy. Totally different. Intentions and decency mean a lot to me. I didn’t get either but he wanted me to THINK so with his NICE, although traumatizing words.
Planking… I stopped my core strengthening a year ago. I’ll think about it. Putting energy in to YOURSELF is definitely the right attitude.
Say Something,
You said good and wonderful doesn’t quit. I thought I had good and wonderful. That was my belief. Now, the man running around HOtel floors looking for something better felt that way too but he wanted to go and see what else was available to him.
As my stylist says he had no intention of leaving me. He just got caught. BTW she met and talked to him over the years. I am glad the two of us moved on. To me it is an indication that although he said was happy something wasn’t right. My EGO says but we were great together. We were a striking couple. We were going to travel the world together. How could you do this to me after all those great years we had together? I am not enough? Why? This is where the misfit thinking comes into play.
This is the kind of thinking that causes me problems. Logically, I should know that just because he cheated on me doesn’t mean I am no longer worthy. Suddenly I am no longer attractive. I use to say he didn’t want me and would just start to cry (misfit). I still cried and I am the one who told him it was OVER. It is just that his act of betrayal hit me so hard that my thoughts went dark. I have these what is wrong with me thoughts. They can destroy your soul and confidence. Now, I have to rebuild my confidence. I also can no longer operate from a position of FEAR about my future.
I have some MAJOR work to do. I am much better but I know this is a process. If I am upset about anything it is that I am not doing enough to enjoy the Summer. I haven’t been able to meet girls who want to go to lunch, hang out at concerts, shop, travel and see plays with me. Hope everybody wants to text and never meet up. They are virtual as far as I am concerned. I am doing so much alone. I have to ACCEPT this. It depresses ME. My life is not what it use to be. I wish I knew what was really next in my life. Uncertainty. I m doing my best everyday. If I were granted just one wish today-I would wish to turn back time and I would have never met that monster. Oh and I would be happy and content with my LIFE. I am not. I was so different before this.
I have to stay focused on my projects. That is great that you have your core tight. This is my dream goal. I am planking and using a weighted hula hoop. I have to work on my core if I am going to look fabulous in my gorgeous outfit part of it is a crop top (no way to hide). We have to find the small things that make us happy. I am on a 30 day plank mission.
One last thought about the past. Looking in the rear view mirror again. I was engaged to that man and spent a large chuck of my life with him. Our families spent vacations together and did so much. Truth-we are done, but he will always be a part of my life journey. I would never entertain a friendship with him or speak to him again. Eventually, I will move past this but it is not likely to forget someone I was planning to marry. I pray I have learned a valuable (painful) lesson and that my future is BRIGHT like a diamond. I am laughing like ETolle. Thoughts of him will just continue to fade so that he just becomes a distant memory.
I had another fricken dream last night. I was helping him pick out something to wear. Withdrawal from the worst experience I have had in my life. I am about to leave for vacation alone. This is so not what I had planned for my life. But this is how life unfolds. OMG my new reality. When will I be HAPPY again like I was before this nightmare? I am TRYING.
MJ
YUP These guys never fail to fall out of the same cookie cutter. Mine got hot an heavy into the dating site (possibly prior to his discard) and then I found out he had a active profile after he started dating me again. That was the end. He sought ME out and was still on dating sites. And it didn’t take a heartbeat for him to get out there after he was supposedly so sad. That reminds me, I saw this one dudes profile, his is headed with “I’m a total Narcissist”. See they CAN tell the truth.
To MJ and Say Something and anyone else who is terrified or sad to think about living the rest of the life alone. It came to me this morning that I am working on building my life by myself and my daughter the way it is now. I am not waiting anymore for anyone to fill in anything in any sense. Anything to be filled in, will be filled in by me. Moreover, my daughter will leave off to college in a few years. Not soon, but time flies. I have to be prepared to live alone completely once she grows up and builds her life. My job is to raise her my best, and then, she will leave too. I have to build the foundation now and my life full and complete by my own personality. Yes, I could meet someone and get married. Maybe. Maybe not. So this morning I thought to myself that once I am never worrying and fearful that I live alone as a woman and feel there is nothing wrong and missing, then what do I have to fear? We fear loneliness because we are humans. It’s normal. The reality is that people leave us. Children, spouses, boyfriends/girlfriends. Sometimes by their own will, sometimes death takes them. And eventually death takes everyone. And that’s the fear of all, the loneliness in death too. If we beat the fear of loneliness, we don’t have to worry about being lonely. I am saying all this in half-theory/half-practice. Like I said before, I too would like to share my life with someone. However, I realize it might not happen. What do I do then? Live in misery, hidden depression, pining for someone, waiting to live my life until one appears? No. I had done that before and the result brought me here, to BR, luckily. I am learning to build my life as if I am to live the rest of my life alone. But the doors to my life are open to that someone, who is right for me.
MJ,
Oops I meant to copy you on my response to say something. I cannot imagine what you have gone through. To go as far as wedding plans. What a punk. How devastating. I’m sorry about how you were treated.
For me, and healing, I want to point out that my opinion is that identifying that this guy was a major butthole is just a small part of the whole healing process. The most intense painful part yes, but the rest of the healing is recognizing that things couldn’t continue like they were. I had a number of things happen.
1. I made the mistake of thinking I had healed after being with the ex psychopath who came before the AC just because I learned what a psychopath was.
2. Realization about invalidation of my feelings from my mom in some ways.
3. Diagnosed with ADHD recently and realization of the massive impact that has when it is severe and has gone untreated.
4. New city, no friends, no job after move and as a result of the above fighting off depression.
I think I am wanting to separate the idea of getting over him with my big life overhaul. This is my big wonderful change for the better, why should he get muck up the clean water. Yeah he was a catalyst, but I was the one that realized it. He doesn’t get any credit. And maybe it will only take a month, maybe a year, maybe it takes a constant maintenance or, maybe it depends on where we are getting our info and if we don’t mistakenly tell ourselves the wrong things. I don’t want to let him be a part of my healing. Screw that.
Pauline,
A lot of people ignore weird or outrageous behavior. I thought love would solve everything. Or at least what I thought was love. Natalie is so right (god is she ever right). I feel like every time I think I’m grown up something comes along and I’m left thinking “wow, you really were a baby mushroom, look how different you view things now? In a way it feels comforting knowing that a light has been turned on where before I was dark. I’m not that baby mushroom being fed a bunch of doodoo and kept in the dark. 🙂 . Growth.
Just like you said it’s best to wait before rushing in. That is something I did. There are so many factors that go into this mess, things going on in me and my self plus not being aware of AC and Mr. Unavailable. But as you can see, they all seem to be cut from a similar cloth and you won’t be so likely to be caught out next time.
Freedme, very well said: “It feels comforting knowing that a light has been turned on where before I was dark.” That’s how I feel too. Every pain, challenge turn into a growth experience. Also, I feel like I am learning and growing all the time. The same experiences two years ago or so would not mean a thing to me, because exactly like you say, we were in the dark! The growth could not happen, no matter what. There was no light!
Freedme
The best way to sum up narc behavior is “it is not enough for me to win; you must also lose”.
completely
Yeah, you are right about that. Ugh… You know what is the most disturbing thing?? He claimed his Ex Wife was the NARC. And I believed it. But then I wanted to understand what that meant and BINGO.
goes right back to childhood and unless they have done the inner work to get over it, they just continue the cycle. I was raised by people like this and if you read the last post, I’ve outlined it in some detail. They simply lack empathy and therefore, compassion cannot exist.
I just came back from a family visit and the narc behavior was on high, especially from my father, to the point that I doubt I have experienced any genuine love from either parent. The narc dad doesn’t tolerate feelings and mom had to use all her energies to please him I’m sure. None left for me. I was very sad and explains why I was sooo shut down as a child.
Anyway, I have also treated boyfriends like objects because of this soulless upbringing. I have developed great compassion for others, but still can’t quite get there for boyfriends, and I refuse to have narc behaviors in a relationship, either from him or me. Hence, the being single. I am getting better though, and I do need a man that I believe can fulfill some important needs, because my needs were not considered above food and shelter.
I learned that I would pick on guys who could not fulfill some major need and then I would attack them for this. Nonsense and luckily that desire is less desired by me, however, being controlled by a man is an absolute no. If I sniff that a man tries to control me, my army comes out.
It’s still a work in progress, and I have gone on a couple dates with a new man that seems to want to do whatever I want, he actually told me he’d like a manual on dating me. I laughed, he’s either very clever or very naive. I’m certainly quite curious about this one.
@whatever. “I learned that I would pick on guys who could not fulfill some major need and then I would attack them for this.”
So if you make a list of what exactly these needs are you’ll get a clear picture of what your father (or mother) symbolically took from you. Try it, it’s actually very difficult to get down to writing concrete examples. Best, V.
Thanks V, I will try that. One thing that hit me this morning, is that I grew up with very resentful parents who never spoke about it. I grew up in an environment of resentment and I get embroiled in that soup a lot in my life.
If they had truly abandoned me then it would be clear that they do not want me. It happened to a friend of mine, and she has done a hell of a lot more with her life because she knew where she stood and carried on. There is nothing more I hate than confusing, indirect and covert behavior and communication. That’s why I choose to be direct with people.
I wish they had thrown me out with the cats, I would have been able to say ‘well this is where it stands’ and move forward with it. The dubious, somehow manipulative communication keeps me stuck. I have been feeling it every morning when I wake up these days.
@ V
unfortunately one of my biggest needs is to be taken care of. I know, we must do this for ourselves and I am, but the need is still there.
@whatever. Exactly so, exactly as you say. I am so glad you got to the bottom of it, and it is so great that you did it. You’re very sore right now but as soon as you get a little bit better you’ll see what a heroic thing you managed to do.
About the being taken care of: that is so wide I suggest you break it down into small concrete pieces. If being taken care of is being treated with sincerity and not manipulated by your life partner, you’ll get that; if it is being treated with great kindness, go to some fancy restaurant where they treat you like a queen, go to a spa and let yourself be pampered, go on a short holiday in a wonderful place; ask a friend to cook you a special dinner, ask a friend to hold you while you watch a movie.
There are some things for which one can’t do anything but grieve, but you know that and you’ll do that in your own time.
I’m sorry for the demented examples but I think you get the gist. Best, V.
V
Thanks for your support. I am still feeling very raw and wonder why I keep going back to visit every year when it literally feels like picking at a wound that somehow never heals. I really wish I was less sensitive, but I’m not and I have also been feeling rootless, like this last visit uprooted me and honestly I am afraid that I am seeking soil, in the form of a relationship with a man. Ouch, that scares me.
The man I have had a few dates with seems to be ADHD or something, he is fun and makes me laugh a lot, but he can’t just sit and enjoy himself, he’s antsy to leave and admits to being like my parents in that he is always working on something and can’t sit still for long. What am I going to do with that? Why oh why is there always something????
This older lady I know tells me I’m like a young girl (I’m not) in my expectations of relationships. I give up!
@whatever. It is my pleasure to have this exchange with you. And thanks to Natalie that provides this opportunity (I think we’re on topic too).
In my experience once you hit bottom the only way is up, and comes very naturally. It looks to me like you’re very much there, so I expect you will feel much better in a little while. Just keep doing what you’re doing, some hurting is actually cleansing old wounds.
What has worked for me is this: I follow my internal drive. This feels like something that is as necessary as the air I breathe, and is very different from an angry(/pushing/punishing/righteous) one. I don’t know how to explain it, but I follow the drive that comes when I am in a child position. So for instance, about the love thing, I touched the lowest point in my adult life when I was literally lying on the floor crying and begging my ex-fiance’ to love me. It didn’t work of course, but that gave me the opportunity to really understand how desperate I was as a child, how starved of affection I was. The more I grieve over it – it comes in waves and gets better with time as Natalie says – the less I feel the need to be taken care of by other people on that level. But there is no forcing, I just feel more… whole.
So what I suggest is that you try with all your might to fulfill your needs: some you’ll see that can be fulfilled in the present time, some you’ll see that cannot be fulfilled, and that is the point where the illusions die. It will hurt but you will be free you know. And life will get easier and more pleasant.
About the old lady: depending one the tone that might be a good thing to say or not. If she made you feel ‘less’, don’t listen to her.
About the guy: let’s put it this way: if you were grieving about a family member who has recently died, would you consider this a good time to start a relationship with somebody? You are grieving about parts of you you know, what you lost because you sacrificed yourself for your family. If the guy can stay near you in such difficult times, it’s ok, if not I think it’s better to gather all of your energies for yourself to get through this in one piece.
Best, V.
V
Thank you for your support, I know what you mean about the grieving, I do feel whole as well when I remind myself to grieve. It’s so easy to get stuck in the emotion. I would like a little more info on your comment below:
“So what I suggest is that you try with all your might to fulfill your needs: some you’ll see that can be fulfilled in the present time, some you’ll see that cannot be fulfilled, and that is the point where the illusions die.”
A need that can’t be fulfilled right now is the one for a family of my own through an intimate relationship and possibly children (his).
However, I do have friends and church, although I do feel like I reveal too much at times (at church). It is odd for people to hear a mature grown older woman still talking about mommy and daddy, it’s down right embarrassing and honestly, sometimes I still feel like I’m 25, even though I’m more than twice that age. I look much younger too. However, that is the nature of the beast and a beast it is.
A friend did a visualization with me where I would come to a fork in the road and then decide on which way to go. Anyway, when I got to the fork in the road, there stood a huge monument of a phallus! OMG, I couldn’t move, I couldn’t make any decision, this dick was literally in my way! Don’t know what it means, beyond the obvious. Freudian, I am sure!
could represent my father, and male power over..me.
….stopping me from making a decision in my life and moving forward.
@whatever. Yes of course.
“A need that can’t be fulfilled right now is the one for a family of my own through an intimate relationship and possibly children (his).”
An intimate, satisfying relationship with a man is a need that CAN and will be fulfilled. You will have that, you are working towards that, you want it, you’re learning from your mistakes… : the road is paved, it just a question of time for it to happen.
Children: if you mean your biological children and you can’t have them for whatever reason, that is a need that cannot be fulfilled. If you have already mourned over this lost possibility, everything is fine. You’ll find a sense of family in yourself and your partner when you’ll have one.
What I mean with “illusions die” is that you may have unconsciously sabotaged yourself by not marrying and not having children as you say you would have wanted to, to satisfy an implicit request from your father. He may have stated implicitly (or explicitly) that for him to love you you must not do a number of things that would have displeased him. This would mean that you have sacrificed a great deal of your life to make him happy, and very possibly this was not enough to satisfy him either, and he is not happy(-ier) in spite of your sacrifice. The illusion in this case would be “I can make my father happy by making myself unhappy, i.e. sacrificing a part of my happiness”. A child would do anything to please her parents.
This is all speculation from my part, I hope it is not so hard for you.
Your dream is very meaningful and I think you have understood it correctly.
Best, V.
V
This is an interesting exchange, thanks for being willing to work through some if it with me.
It would have been implicit, because when I was a teenager, he beat me if I talked to boys, but once I hit my twenties I was supposed to get married and have a family, and blames me for not marrying (which still displeases him).
I was so scared of guys because of his training in my teens, how the hell was I supposed to get married in my 2o’s.
So, I may have been fulfilling an earlier order (stay away from boys) but that order changed to ‘Get married!’.
However, the being unhappy was an implicit fulfillment of my mother’s who was always jealous and loathsome herself. I got it from both ends, unfortunately.
I don’t exactly know how these illusions will fall away, I have certainly been aware of them for decades and if they haven’t been dismantled by now, then I don’t know how they will be….but I really hope you are right.
Hi long term reader 1st time poster
Ive been following this exchange with interest
Its been said by other commentators that the throwing away of pets & other actions by the father were abusive & I agree; the mother is also seen as abusive it brought to mind a hospital show here in the UK – many years ago an episode aired where a child came in showing signs of physical abuse, the child was clearly fond of the father & antagonistic to the mother leading to the obvious conclusion that the mother was the abuser
The moral of the story though was that the father was the abuser & all members of the family were trying to please him in an every man for himself scenario
I can see why you feel let down by mother but wonder if the above is relevant?
Anna,
Thank you for your comments. I would like to see this show, maybe I can find it online.
I think you are right. My father is an undiagnosed narcissist, he fits all the criteria, in fact even more, some leading to psychopathy I believe, but I don’t know.
My mother is the same, although she is capable of compassion, expressed mostly as pity. They both have nasty mean streaks.
But, my father was definitely in charge of her and most around him. She fought back verbally (nagging, defensiveness) He laughs at her or waves his hand dismissively and calls her stupid and has hit her as well when I was young. But, he has a nasty temper too or he’s indifferent. Always tells me if I tell people how bad my parents are that it will only reflect badly on me, not them.
I had it tough mostly with my mother, my dad never stepped in to help me, but on this last visit and occasionally before, I see my dad for the cruel, heartless and resentful (at least towards me) person that he is. I’m still dealing with the aftershocks.
Anna
I agree with the ‘every man for himself’ scenario, fits my family to a T. I’m seeing that as nobody helped each other out, they just took care of their own hide.
My siblings took care of themselves and don’t give a rats a** about fairness to me, who knows, they may be secretly enjoying it.
Mother always sided with father and he with her. I was on my own, and still am, as I should be I guess.
I have no business trying to go there to get anything, my father certainly believes that and I guess he’s right.
I need to disengage and follow my own value system and not bother with theirs. I need to focus on internal healing, not on external things or validation or correction (ex. being fair).
@V and whatever:
Yes, that phrase really struck a tone with me too. That’s pretty much my two last relationshits. Except at the beginning they were kind of giving that. The giving part lasted maybe a month and then I begged and then I persecuted. All useless. My tiny self-esteem did not allow me to wave them good bye. Although I am still not totally sure why I find it so hard to move out of these kinds of situations with some men and have no problem doing it with the other.
@whatever, the feelings you describe – these I recognize very well. I think I’ve posted this before that for me personally the ambiguity is the most addictive and destructive thing in a relationship. Once there’s any kind of ambiguity – I ask about its meaning directly and if I am given another ambiguity as an answer – I bail out. Maybe this way I might lose someone good but in my case I know I get to get addicted to this and sucked into “winning” the love of people who are ambiguous. It’s my heroin for sure. I know where it goes to – it’s from my parent. Plus an alcoholic father who could show up drunk and weird in his “loving” attempts or all business like. Nothing was stable or predictable. All people in my childhood had like a kaleidoscope of personalities within one person and I never knew who would show up at any give moment and what they’ll decide to take or to give.
I don’t know if it’s not too much of a projection as you know your situation better but I found solace in the words of my therapist. She said I will never ever find anything that could fulfill this hole that not being loved by your parent(s) leaves. There’s not a partner or self-love that can replace it. However, we can grieve and we can move on. This grief will always be a part of our life and we can learn to CONTROL it. And by giving to ourselves in OTHER ways and finding people who will be accepting of us we can transform this large gaping mouth hungry for love so encompassing into something that does not control our love interests and our life. It will be a part of us, but it will not be controlling us. I don’t know if it makes any sense to you.
I also read something in one of Henry Cloud’s book that was revolutionary for me (maybe it’s banal): you first find a safe circle, a support system (a co-dependents anonymous group, circle of friends, your church, your hobby and people who are into it, NOT your family) and you open up about your needs to them. Once we learn that our needs are ok, once we re-program our brain that our needs can be expressed and fulfilled in safety, then we can move onto romantic relationships.
I am trying to get there.
@Why: I think the point of grieving is to fill the hole. I feel w-hole after I grieve about something, the need disappears, or diminishes, or moves to more attainable goals once I do that. So, in my opinion, only the first half of what your therapist told you is correct.
And I never feel like I am carrying around a hungry mouth: I love myself and respect my needs, and all I think about them is that I have to find the best way to fulfill them, in respect for me and who’s around me. V.
wow so I am looking for :-
a man who trusts me,
is forgiving,
uses direct, kind communication,
lives in the moment,
asks questions when he doesn’t understand something to uncover the whole truth rather than jumping to negative conclusions and acting on them,
is loyal to me even when he disagrees,
is secure mentally and physically,
giving – emotionally and physically,
brave and secure,
sympathetic to people,
someone with integrity – who does not take advantage of my vulnerabilities,
accepts his own mistakes and does something about them,
is caring when he says he is ie shows in all his actions towards me,
is positive to me for real and believing in me.
I should have this tatooed somewhere.
the above is a reply to v. ‘s question to whatever. Many thanks V.
The narc dad doesn’t tolerate feelings and mom had to use all her energies to please him I’m sure. None left for me. I was very sad and explains why I was sooo shut down as a child.
MEEEE TOOOOO.
Single is good, and dating is good, and taking care of yourself is best of all.
whatever, your comments really resonate with me. I love how honest you are. I, too, had an upbringing similar to yours. Confusing, indirect, and covert behavior and communication was frequent. And it took years for me to be able to understand and label what was happening. For me, there was a family “soup” of antagonism rather than resentment. It felt like my parents responded to me like they were against me, or challenging me somehow…and not in a good way.
oceanic
Yes, I had that antagonism as well, thank you for naming it, my parents would interrogate, bully and challenge as well, also rarely, if ever in a good way. I was the eldest and was very protective of my siblings and felt it was us against them, now it’s me against all of them. I feel betrayed by my siblings as well as my parents.
Charlotte
If they have a true mental illness, you’ll never “get it”; a normally functioning person cannot put themselves in the mind of the mentally ill. Some of it was from their childhood, some was just hard wired before birth. Assclownery not attributable to a disorder gets folks what they want with a minimum of effort on their part. I think many, myself included, make an erroneous assumption that others want what we want and that a persons behavior means they have the same goals that we’d have when exhibiting that behaviour. People are inconsistent, often illogical, often self sabotaging, and sometimes just plain broken. All we can do is pay attention and bail if something is off.
Well Put Noquay,
My summary: sometimes people just suck.
It’s kind of like two people with identical observable behaviors, but these two people have opposing thoughts and feelings. Different motives, different needs, different goals. One person is real. One is an imposter. But since they look alike, sound alike, act alike how can they be different? Because one is an imposter.
Great words of wisdom, Noquay!
Hi Natalie
This is so hard for me to write. First of all, I have to say you have saved my sanity this year. I’ve just survived a relationship with a narcissist. Returning childhood sweetheart, married, you know how it goes. The hardest thing to accept is that to them you never were a person, just someone to be used and that what you thought was a relationship was all fake. It crushes you as a person. I have learned some positive things since it ended (no contact for 5 weeks but he was dropping me anyway since his wife found out and I was talking about moving on). I discovered your website looking for answers and I now know that this has been my epiphany and every relationship I’ve ever had has been one where I have allowed myself to be either used, abused or both. I now know that I don’t have to do that anymore and that is because of you. I’m not prepared to allow people to treat me as less than anymore. It has happened at work recently and I am now going to look for something else because of it. I have joined a couple of dating agencies. He got me at a low ebb as my mum had just died, he said he’d been looking for me for years, wish he hadn’t found me again.
Thanks for everything.
Nancy
Nancy, from someone that also recently lost a parent; losing your mum is a really big deal. You need time to process that. The AC and dating sites might not help if you aren’t ready.
Its possible he didn’t see you as a real person. But it doesnt matter what he thinks. Its not a reflection on you. His demons are all his demons. What happened with him is not a sign of what will happen to you in the future. Its not. You’ll find other great people, and other problematic people, all unique. The key I think is to recognize when someone’s behavior is not okay (boundaries, standards, values), and then to also interpret that its not about you so you dont have to take the responsibility or own their behavior. Its not about you. Its them. When its about you, an authentic person will come and tell you that – hey, you do that thing, it upsets me, how do we fix this. They won’t just start stonewalling and gas lighting and all the rest of it.
Losing a parent is just so hard, it changes us, and nothing feels the same. Even if we had a problematic relationship, they’re the most important center in our lives. They’re the people we loved before we had words to express, they’re who we knew before everything.
[I also wanted to point out that you said that you felt used in ‘every’ relationship. That is either black and white thinking / exaggeration which we definitely do when we are depressed, feeling hopeless, but if its true its a sign that you’re picking problematic people and not standing up for yourself. I think its the former honestly because I do hope there are some good people in your life. Read Brene Brown on imperfections and how we need to allow ourselves to be vulnerable; I am reading her again, I want to connect with my emotions more than I do right now].
Hi suki
I think you have judged me harshly. Yes, I knew he was married and yes, it wasn’t right. I said to him I think you should seriously consider walking away ( I know, I should have done before you say it). His answer was why should I? Red flag there already but its easy to see that now. Who doesn’t want to believe that you and he were meant to be together. I am not a drama queen and yes, all my relationships with men have negative. Of course that says a lot about me but I cant change it. If you have never been sucked into the narcissists world which can be exciting and fun at first you can never understand how much you feel alive because they are popular and have many friends and all that. Its so easy to say well you knew it wouldn’t end well and you should have done this or not done that. I was helping him cheat and that’s not right. I’m still the one who is hurting though. He was always going to end up with something. The irony is I’ve never cheated on anyone. I’m not a bad person, I may have done a bad thing but that doesn’t define me. No one is going to tell me otherwise.
As someone who had a relationship with the most exciting creative charming high functioning narcissist anyone has ever met – the (NOT) golden boy – and has come through the other end after the escalation into physical violence and smear campaigns on an epic scale – more of the things you say are compatible with Suki than you currently know in your writing and your reply seems at places defensive – admirably so on one hand but possibly misplaced on the other? – did Suki’s reply trigger anger? guilt? Shame?
If it did I’m sorry it did.
Often the result of the Narcissist’s game = to dump so much guilt and shame and anger on you so as to leave you sodden to the core and unable to process or function anymore – like a grass field prone to flooding and sodden to the core with water – and we either overly defend ourselves or shut down completely – we become flooded and trigger fight, flight or freeze reactions to any and every perceived attack – like we are on high alert all the time and left reacting to all input – in order to survive we feel – even when we are not actually in danger anymore. This is trauma and is unfortunately a common reaction to an experience with a Narcissist – like a gift that just keeps on giving over and over again – UNTIL we can genuinely begin to feel safe once again.
You aren’t a bad person but good people do make mistakes as you admit yourself and that means all of us – me, you and suki as well – it is human nature – as I’m sure you really know – we are perfectly imperfect or basically not perfect – accepting this can be really hard in reality especially when we have been hurt. But there is a difference between this – a mistake – and INTENTIONALLY hurting people for an ego boost – as a Narcissist does.
I don’t believe that Suki thinks you are bad – in that you intended to hurt people – I believe she feels you made a mistake in not acknowledging at the beginning – like myself and Suki have also in different ways – that the odds were never stacked in our favour for what ever reason – not choosing to see a red flag is what we all have done in one way or another. Everyone on here has done this and it is the hardest thing to come to terms with, accept, put new measures in place and move beyond – and one of the most essential – not for our posts on here but for OURSELVES for real – because in reality we are our harshest judge underneath it all – even the with the defensive things we tell ourselves.
There are a number of healing processes that are alot like grief of someone close dying and feeling anger towards the person, who has hurt us, after we defended the indefensible to them for so long IS important – but not the whole story and is not the end point where you are fully healed.
I feel Suki knows, as do I, having come through it now – without recognising and accepting our ONLY mistakes in our situation – focusing on us and how we really feel about what happened – how would we have healed by learning?, putting new strategies into our life? to safeguard us in the future and move on progressing to better relationships?
Its like burning our hand on an electric bar heater, not acknowledging that not going near it is one key to stopping our pain happening again – and then going back to it for more because we are oblivious to its real potential to harm – because it feels warm.
You are right you can’t change the past or them but you CAN change yourself and your future.
You are right this does not define who you are – UNLESS you don’t get to the bottom (keys) of the
how?
why?
and how not to?
– then it will define you in a dreadful repeated cycle over and over again – getting increasingly worse and increasingly painful as you go – resulting in repeated poor relationships.
We know by defending the indefensible we fooled no-one – not even ourselves – it turns out underneath it all, we were aware all along underneath and all along accepting this risky situation – in order to fall and beat ourselves up further – in reality – due to some cycle or pattern learned from childhood or other traumatic situation which we couldn’t handle and never unraveled for real.
We don’t want this for you or for ourselves – we all deserve better because at the end of the day we never intended any harm and didn’t deserve to be treated so badly and made to feel so much pain. We deserve to live as fully as we all can and have potential to.
Oona,
What you describe in your posts about a NARC sounds dreadful. I hope I never meet a DEVIL like this. How the hell are you still standing? This sounds so devastating.
You almost need to be insured by AIG to date. So many risks involved. But I am stronger and I will cut off anyone who is trying to bring BS. I don’t need anybody to bring me drama. I would prefer to sit here on the beach alone but at peace.
MJ I nearly didn’t – it took a phone call to a + e and the rest followed.
Thanks for making me laugh about insurance – I have a colostomy bag for mine – one of the greatest jerk detectors in history.
And you are right sitting alone on a beach is great and peaceful – so long as it is sandwiched in between lots of genuinely fun, exciting loving times with people – who aren’t devils.
Hi Oona,
I love your outlook. These days I am more positive than I have been. I sit on the beach and get tanned alone. I have read so many books and it gives me time to clear my head. The beach is the place I enjoy the most. I do early morning workouts and then just sit outside and read. I love the water. PEACEFUL. Sounds pretty boring but at least there is no drama involved.
This is my new life. I am trying to adjust to it. ACCEPTANCE.
Oona,
I find sandwiching between my two pets makes ALL the difference in the world. I don’t even care if I’m “the crazy cat lady” ha ha… It may not be human love but it’s the healthiest daily love I can dish out and receive. (at least under my current situation). Even if they are kittens and tear the toilet paper up. 🙂
Interaction is good Freedme – whether it is cats or good people – I love cats too – especially kittens – sounds great.
Dear oona
You are so right. Sukis reply did upset me cos there I was bearing my soul and suki comes along and says but you must have known it wouldn’t end well and I thought but this is baggage reclaim and here I have someone making me feel worse than I already do. But suki is right and just because he didn’t care about his wife does not mean I shouldn’t. I should have had more respect for her and myself and told him to piss off. So, thank you suki for pointing this out and I have taken what you said and really thought about it. I will never ever go near a married man again. I said I have joined two dating agencies. You may think it is too soon but I am being very careful. Part of my profile goes – I am not interested in players, cheaters or anyone prepared to lie about their status. So i have learned from it and that is all we can wish for. The irony is that if my mum hadn’t died she would have told me not to touch him with a bargepole, childhood sweetheart or not and I wouldn’t have cos she was a very wise and I’m happy to say, loving woman. Thanks to everyone and I mean everyone, on here. Nancy
Nancy – You have had your light bulb moment – well done. Part of healing is accepting that this is what you secretly knew all along – accepting it and not using it to beat yourself up further – ie knowing that you made a mistake and have paid for it in full – and are now able to move on with a full conscience.
Good luck Nancy and well done.
I didn’t date a married man ever, but I KNOW I stopped listening and acting on my real instinct from the moment I met this man – very quickly. When you are listening and acting on YOUR real instinct – you are safer from harm because you protect yourself and so are others as a byproduct.
Also Nancy – I felt hurt by some home truths on BR also in the past – the ones I was struggling to accept fully and heal from especially – well done you were much quicker than I was at working it out for yourself.
Nancy, I do not think you are a bad person! I dont even think you did a ‘bad’ thing – I think that perhaps what happened didn’t happen TO YOU, it was something that you were a part of, and therefore responsible for just as you say. Please dont take my tone to be judgmental, though it was harsh. I dont want to take a moral tone about being with an MM. I understand. We do things that we know aren’t going to end well, because we are caught up in the moment etc. [sometimes for the same reasons that make us stay with EUMs].
I have had previous comments on this board where I felt that the distinction has to be made – if your partner treats you badly and is an AC, that is totally different from if your partner that is married to someone else treats you badly and is an AC.
I feel for people in the first place, they realize that their relationship might have been a sham, or that they misunderstood the other person. But in the second case, they knew from the beginning that it was a sham, and that the relationship was built on deception all the way down. I feel for you in the second case too – but for different reasons. I feel for you because you will have to step up and take responsibility for this, and not just go NC but also fully acknowledge the reasons that made you go down this path. It requires a much harder and serious look at yourself. That is hard for anyone.
What you say about him; that he didn’t care for you, that he didn’t love you as he said he would etc. And that its selfish for him to stay with his wife – whereas by definition, it is usually the most rational thing for an MM to stay with the wife! He is married, he cannot by definition care for you while living with another woman no matter how much he says he hates her. That is what makes this different in my mind, you are only seeing his part, how he cheated YOU and didn’t love you, but he was never in a position to love you. I do not question your hurt and your anguish at this. I question the basic premise you are starting with that somehow you have been cheated of his love – when it was never on the table in the first place since he was married to someone else.
[I think you naively went with a married man, and now are trying to struggle through the rejection by painting him as a monster rather than painting yourself as someone that was naive. Taking responsibility doesnt mean saying ‘i am bad, i did a bad thing’ it means really looking at it and thinking through it and saying ‘oh when he said x to me that is when i should have walked away’ or ‘when he asked me to do x that was when i was naive to believe him’. This is the best way to move forward while learning the lessons and not beating yourself up]
Well said, Suki I have really hoped NML would address the issues of women becoming heartbroken with their liasons with married men. They wind up on BR. Some were even impregnated by the married men (who were greatly relieved the babies didn’t survive). I always
wonder, why would someone become sexually involved with someone who is married. And then be heartbroken to realize it was only a sexual affair. I wonder do these women want to have the man leave a wife ( and maybe kids) to marry her? And then I wonder about all these men I read about who are sleeping with women other than their wives…what a world we have now. There doesn’t seem to be any guidance for ethics, morals and making decisions, doing right and wrong. It’s all about self gratification.
When the news about that recent “Shawshank-like” prison break came out, and they discovered the married female prison volunteer had participated in helping the two prisoners escape, someone I know said “She was MARRIED! What is she doing having sex with prisoners!”. My response was “Marriage can be very lonely for a lot of people.” I was not surprised at all when her husband was quoted as saying he was not standing by her. They probably had not been on the same team – friends – in years.
She fell victim to “grooming” – the term prisoners use when they “court” someone who is vulnerable to attention.
A lot of us, male and female, are vulnerable to attention.
I don’t get why people don’t understand that marriage is often very emotionally lonely. I’ve always observed how my married coworkers were always so busy with outside activities, outside of child-rearing duties. Volunteering, book clubs, choir, various home sales ventures, coaching…….all very noble pursuits…but….my feeling is that it is a way of coping with a nagging emptiness, sometimes, anyway.
Did you know JFK wrote Jackie letters thanking her for making his life less lonely? He felt lonely growing up, and cherished the love and family Jackie gave him. Yet he was still a philanderer. People are complicated.
Elgie,
The prison break stories intrigued me- not so much about the fact that Joyce was married, but DAMN! Violent, convicted murderers gained her trust, and other federal prison employees are under investigation. Violent convicted ‘charming’ murderers? It wasn’t like she was ‘groomed’ and THEN found out their backgrounds. What kind of dynamics had to be in play for someone in her position to overlook the obvious? Last I’d read, the husband was still supporting her, as he was initially. Maybe that changed. Anyhow, some MAJOR fallout and master manipulation. Anyhow Elgie, you are so right about emotionally lonely marriages. I was in one. Maybe that’s why I’ve never missed him.
What makes someone get groomed even though they have clues the person may not trustworthy?
Someone is not listening or trusting their instinct on some big level I imagine and choosing to dis-reguard the things they receive in communication that will protect them.
This can be due to alot of reasons – especially unresolved abuse in their past, stockholm’s syndrome, being naive about relationships and forgiving etc…
Grooming is just another way for saying you were expertly lied to – over a really long, less obvious, HARDER TO DETECT time frame.
Simple pleasures
I understand what you say and what I did was clearly immoral but society has a way of beating up the other woman first and the cheating husband (maybe) second. It appears to be endemic. I was helping him to cheat yes but I was not cheating, he was the one who had vowed to love, honour and obey. He came looking for me and I should have walked away and blah, blah, blah but as judge Judy says you weren’t there.
Calling people these women is just plain rude or is everyone on here whose made a mistake “these women”?
@Nancy, I apologize if I was rude, it is not my intent for that or to be moralistic or judgmental.
I came to BR because I was one of “these women” who made a mistake, quite a while ago now, and I have done extensive soul searching to understand my choices, my behaviour which contributed to my mistake. And I have continued to read the BR articles and stories from everyone because I am trying to understand the bigger picture of human behaviour,for example,why a married man destroys another woman, why a woman opts for him. And over the years when you scratch below the surface so many here had emotionally unavailable parents, troubled childhoods which they see they need to sort out because they continue to look for affirmation and love from an unavailable parent in a love partner. They get hurt. They have to go to a professional counselor, take medication, soul search for meaning and happiness and their own need to find their authentic self. I am just trying to understand why we do the things we do, why I did the things I did in this modern world. I ask myself is it because the family has disintegrated and everyone is floundering around? Have we abandoned the State, the Religious institutions, the Educational institutions which once guided our behaviour? I am sorrowful for the way people treat one another now. Women provide easy sexual availability to men, who well, appreciate the opportunity, and deep down, the woman really wants love. I am older than most people here, and look at the younger people here and the pickles they have gotten into. I am just trying to figure out where modern society and sexual/emotional/family relationships are going.
@Nancy and simple pleasures,
To add to your discussion, I think there is that societal perception that, in general, the man is right and the woman is wrong. To explain, I don’t mean ALWAYS, or that your close friends will not support you. But when it is MM/OW, it seems like society sometimes justifies MM behavior, or overlooks it, often blaming the woman for wrecking things. Even in a divorce, HE must’ve left because SHE did/didn’t xyz. I’ve been in conversations where even when I’ve said ‘I WATCHED him do this horrible thing’ or ‘yes, I SAW his online dating account and exchanges with his wife who crested the fake account to catch him for proof’ people DON’T want to believe that the MAN WITH THE GOOD IMAGE could really be a cheating jerk. SHE must have done something to cause it. She got fat, she’s lazy, she doesn’t support him, she’s a bitch, whatever!
I wonder if these reactions are a form of denial from my married friends because to admit that married men CAN be jerks would mean that they lose the perceived power and control they think they have over THEIR husbands. I think they believe “if I do all the right things, MY husband won’t cheat or leave. Men who cheat or leave do it because the wives are not doing their ‘wife jobs’ so I am immune and safe.”
And when a MM DOES leave, even if he IS a cheating scum, the new partner is accepted and embraced. Sometimes the new partner is the OW, but many times not. She won’t be accepted if she is the OW only, usually she’s a secret. But IF the OW ends up being THE CHOSEN ONE, her status immediately changes.
To conclude, my point is that there is STATUS/social acceptance in being MM. To be his WIFE brings a woman close to that privilege also, no matter HOW she got there. And (in the US) a white man with money has more power and privilege than anyone. It’s not fair, but it’s real.
Sorry suki, I have just seen your reply to me when I had just replied to oona!
He is a narcissist and a very clever, devious person. They can pull stunts on you when loads later you still dont know what hit you. He has found a woman who caters to his every need (well clearly not every or he wouldn’t have come looking for me). If it makes her happy to be his doormat (her words) who am to argue. I learnt a lot from him about (some) men. Some men will do what they think they can get away with. He took a calculated risk that if she found out she wouldn’t chuck him out. He was right. When my ex husband cheated on me that was one boundary I wasn’t prepared to let him cross and that was it. Ironic isn’t it? I have been thinking about this song lately. It goes – enough is enough, I cant go on no more, enough is enough, I want him out that door. Everyone reaches a point in life where enough is enough, I have reached mine.
You have nothing to apologise for suki, you will never know how much good you have done me. Thanks.
Aren’t we are all naive on here Suki + Simple Pleasures? – isn’t that why we search for BR for the knowledge we are lacking? I don’t understand why you and some others feel the need to make a distinction between one naive person and another?
Not all married people tell people they are married at the beginning – the hook – and depending on how vulnerable a person is, depends on how naive they are – let alone the offending persons ability to seriously shape shift, groom and appeal to your vulnerabilities and insecurities – which we all have – despite the good nature of us all in reality.
I don’t understand? why, what seems like, people who go with married people needing a different category of guilt and shame to the rest of us?
But then I’ve neither knowingly been the victim of any of these situations with married people, so perhaps I have too much distance from it all to understand??
I speak from my experience – I knew from the first day meeting my ex that something was not right – I wasn’t acting fully on my instinct – I was shoving some needs down in favour of being seen to be nice – he wasn’t married and yes he was an absolute monster to me (important acknowledgement after putting him on pedestal like a God for so long and is part of grieving process which you then move beyond – esp with Narcissists).
The lessons I have learned as a result are invaluable to me and even though I would never EVER let him near me again I do feel good for what I now know – my life is better even though I am disabled and still working on things – and I rarely need to paint him in anything anymore but do occasionally describe what he factually did – others can make their own mind up. So I feel I am what you describe as a person who went with a married person – only I didn’t – does this mean you have less sympathy for me for being more naive and vulnerable? and that I should buck up and take responsibility for it all? or just the things that I am responsible for – letting myself down by ignoring my real instinct and carrying on as if nothing was wrong…
Oona, I dont think we need a special category of guilt and shame at all. I do think they are different situations in terms of responsibility and how clear cut they are.
With the ex-EUM, I would tell my friend oh he just asked me out. And he was single. So she said thats cool, do you like him? And then oh we had a good time but why did he do x. Hmmm, you know maybe he’s unavailable emotionally, spend some more time if you like him enough etc. So your friends try to help you figure things out, its not clear immediately if he’s EUM etc. Now if I had said to them – oh he’s MM, he just asked me out. How can this be the same category – your friends will say whoa there, get out get out get out.
Where you say whether you take responsibility for it ‘all’. That depends on what ‘all’ means; definitely MMs can be awful predatory people. You are not responsible for him or what he did. You’re responsible for what you did. And responsibility need not imply guilt or shame. We’re imperfect. We can accept our actions without judgment and yet with the knowledge that they were not in our best interest, we can OWN them; I interpret the ex-EUm as ‘sometimes we fall for people that are douche canoes and it takes us a while to figure this out, and thats ok’. This idea helps me – it helps me see that i DID like him, it did take me time to get him out of my system, and thats ok. In my mind I also assume that I’m not doing things this way again (I havent before).
Sometimes just stating it plainly is responsibility – he kept pursuing and retreating and I let him. Wheres the guilt and shame in that statement? Only if I add it on. I could say the same for an MM – thats acknowledging my responsibility. Just plainly, just describing the situation. Thats a step up. If we go the guilt and shame route, we’ll end up denying our role because we tend to avoid guilt and shame.
Anyway, I dont have any answers; I just have the ideas that have helped me get through tough situations and live closer to how I want. Its a process. I can only say that my replies match my values and what I want to cultivate. I totally see where you are coming from, I think differently but perhaps after a while we will converge in our ideas. We can reach a good place through different paths.
You create a picture that shows there maybe some doubt as to whether a person is EU, whereas there is no doubt as to whether someone is married – as grounds for creating two categories of responsibility – one of more or less – this picture you create is based on a simple made up scenario based on experiences of your own joined with GUESSING/PROJECTING at what may? happen with getting together with a married person.
Your made up scenario is not always the case and in my experience with an EU who was not married to anyone else – I had no need to talk to friends about it to confirm what was going on (as you felt you did and also feel confirms your lesser responsibility) – I knew immediately WITHOUT needing to tell anyone to confirm – but repressed it so well and doubted my good instincts so badly, I could not react to them and use them to protect myself.
The doubt in my knowledge, was made by myself, AFTER RECEIVING THEM, based on poor skills I had learned about relationships and how they work/don’t work.
When I looked back I realised this was the exact same pattern I used to get into all the increasingly risky/ dodgy Romantic situations I had, most of my life, until the last time and yes I knew every single time – without needing to check with anyone outside of myself – early on. I suppressed the knowledge AFTER learning it.
If you don’t know already – if there isn’t a question over what is going on – how do you know to tell your friend anything?
Any information you retain about your romantic friend to tell to your friend, shows you have picked up something – whether you say it out loud or repress it/hide it.
Your friend, if you are lucky! and has the same values as you, merely mirrors your own words and gestures and values back to you – that YOU have already fed them. In other words the red flag/yellow flag reactions of your friend already originate from you – I already knew about my EU – just as if he said he was married – to me. I also knew I was hiding my feelings and needs from myself early on but I had been taught as a child of 4 years old, this was what I needed to do to survive.
The thing that seems to be the most common denominator on BR posts between us all, seems to be that we find ways to suppress warnings or not see them as serious outwardly to ourselves – very early on and it is a cycle so normal to us we don’t recognise it until something significantly horrific to us, happens. This is denial which we have all been involved in one way or another.
In your situation you used your friend to help you come out of your denial – to mirror your true concern back to you.
I agree with the accepting of responsibility for your OWN actions need not be linked to guilt and shame AFTER you claim just your own – which is perhaps why my guilt and shame did ease once I did achieve this outpouring after searching for my responsibility in the situation of taking all of the responsibility where I felt overwhelming shame and guilt – that wasn’t even mine to feel.
I was able to do this in a supportive environment – where I was not made to feel more blame or where my actual responsibilities were ignored.
I feel that often women who have affairs, are being asked to accept responsibility not just for themselves but also for the other Married person having the affair – ie the whole deal – not just the part they played – statements such as if the women took all the responsibility for not going into an affair have been made recently on BR – and I wonder if it is primarily because they ARE more vulnerable than the married person ie on their own, needing support and easier to target without close hurt and defensive married allies but also because it helps the married person’s wounded partner better to paint a picture of the irresponsibility of the person entering an affair with a Married adulterer – in order to let the married adulterer more off the hook? in order to forgive the married adulterer easier? and stay within dysfunctional relationships with them? due to difficult ties such as investments in homes and children and also a feeling of investing too many years in something they don’t and were not prepared to let go of before they found this out and a continuing of THEIR denial – which is why they were possibly originally in denial of the poor state of their relationship themselves?
Sometimes our culture seems to help back this up by identifying the married person who didn’t have an affair often as – blameless victim – with no responsibility for the affair at all – only is this true? do they have no responsibilities of their own in their relationships? because often they state they also had a number of flags and questions about what was happening in their own relationship that they denied and repressed themselves and doubted and dismissed and didn’t act on also.
I don’t think two categories of responsibility you are defending are enough – there needs to be at least three based on yours, Nancy’s and my experiences so far and possibly more with others different experiences? A spectrum.
Where we are equal is – we all have responsibility to live to our personal values – to know them and accept when we haven’t AND be able to feel compassion for ourselves when we don’t as well as when we do. Is accepting what we have done wrong helped by people telling us what we have done is worse than what they have done and therefore they have no compassion? Narrowing it down to an us or them category feels too tight to me to be real and in my experience I don’t fit the model you provide so far, so I wonder if others will in reality. Maybe they will but that still leaves three categories of responsibility not an us or them.
As always your words go straight to the heart..and
I hope that one day too I will be able to love me
( the old me ,not who I have turned into) and move on.
I have told my story before but I’m still struggling…
Quick recap .. Had affair for 17 years ,live in same street,best
Friend, soul mate, both made each other centre of our worlds,
Stopped socializing with family,,everything together ( but not
Together as we believe th have families,)
love jealousy fights make ups ..you name it we had it but all
Secret ( no I’m not proud of it but both hearts just wouldn’t
Let go)
Anyway that last few years have been hell,, hearts binded but
For reasons we cannot be together, fights getting harder,,,words nastier
And jealousy ( mine) totally taking over,
So the situation now is ,,,, he has bult or surrounded himself with
New female friends ( 2 I know and am friends with but the new one !!!! ,)
I’m guessing it’s hard s narcissistic harem, he spends all his spare
Time with her ( she is married plus 3 ) her kids call him granpa. He can be
There any hour ( with or without husband being there)
Living in a small community there are lots of social functions .. They do it shop together watch tv together and regularly the 4 get together in the evenings or go out ( she also lives infront of me.. So it’s all in my face)
And me !!! We I am sad I cry I’m sick with jealousy.. Obsess over his whereabouts and what he is doing and with who. I have no friends left I the cumunuty and my life is based around him. He continues to go out be happy go to parties concerts .. Is a reall goody goody has to help everybody with everything meter saying no.. Basically filled his life to replace me.
Of course we have had Arguements.. I don’t except this new ” friendship” but he says that I have to know that he loves me will always love me hopes that one day circumstances will change so we can be together BUT he won’t stop being so “friendly” with her and her family. They make him feel wanted and happy
I flipped .. Found myself crying screaming just wanted to kill.
Found myself at the sea standing on the rocks .. Sent a photo of the water and sure enough he came. Hugged me told me to calm down that he loved me
I just felt that I have nothing left.. He held me so tight.. Wouldn’t let me go.told me how much he loved me and would never leave me.. I was exhausted .. Drained.. The heartache and tears would not stop.
That evening after he discussed all the recent happenings with the 2 older friends ( who know our secret story) sent me a text. In it he told me he is finally cutting all strings between us because I have blown everything out of proportion.. He is breaking away to help me ” get better” that I have no right asking him to stop his relationship with “her”. and he would never do that cos it is a good close relationship that makes him happy.
So he threw me away at my lowest point. The pain is unbearable I just can’t let go.. Tried NC .. But he broke it asking how my recovery is getting on.
Mean time I see him at hers, hear that they have been doing things
Just feel so sad.. Down and just can’t seem to get myself out of it.
Can’t let go.. Won’t let go..
Now through all this I amnow beginning to bring up things from the past.
Things I know I do not want to deal with.. I was pregnant at the age of 15.. My baby was taken for adoption ( basically my parents decision but I’m not “blaming” them)
I’m thinking this must be connected with my trouble in letting this guy go.
We will never ever have what we used to have.. But I still can’t let go
I don’t even thing I would want him if I could have him no because he has hurt me so much.. But I still can’t let him go.
I want to look at him and feel nothing. I want to get him out my system. He is living and I’m dying
I know and feel that my feelings must be connected to my past. I was 15 left school hidden away from family friends.. My sister didn’t even know .. I think I lost myself… And now I have lost me again
I live on this website so thank you Nat and all you wonderful ladies out there.. It does give me hope that one day I will be better… But WHEN .. I want my life back .. I’m 50 and I feel like a heartbroken teenager.. I feel so stupid
A
Hi kirsty.
Your post makes me cry. So many of us are bowed (not sure if that is how you spell it) but we must not be broken because then your user/abuser has won.. They dont care about us so we have to. My narcissist said he had loved me forever, he would never be without me and so it went on. No one would ever love me like he did (his exact words). I believed him. I told him stuff id never told anyone and then later when it was clear that he was never going to do what he said he would he coldly and callously threw it back it my face. Called me a slut, the works. He cut me off like I was nothing and spoke to me like I was a piece of shit. He had been so loving and then, as Natalie says, when he was under pressure to choose me or her, his true selfish, ruthless self came it. I know I have had a lucky escape. He is staying with his wife but I would not want to be her. She is married to a liar and a cheat and I know he will do it again. When he thought she might kick him out he said it would be inconvenient to say the least! They have been married for 30 years. You must think of yourself, you have been through a lot as many of us have. You will be ok, you just have to believe it. X
@Nancy; but he was MM. So. Thats that. You did know. You are very dramatic about him. He might have called you names, and there is no justification for that, but you didn’t have to stay with him. He is not selfish to stay with his wife, or ruthless. He is smart to do that. He owns property with her, has kids, has a life, has social connections, has history. He might leave her for someone else. But its not a shock to me that he would stay with his wife. You might feel hurt, you might hate him. I understand. But a chunk of that drama is created just by definition because he’s married. I dont see how being with a married man – except when its an open marriage and everyone involved (and i mean everyone, their families, everyone) is totally ok – except for that not very typical situation, by definition, being with someone married will not end well. I mean relationships with single people dont end well, so its hardly a surprise that this situation should get messy.
@Kirsty; likewise Kirsty I feel sad you’re in such pain. And you sound so hopeless because you’ve painted yourself as a loser and him as a winner. But also — he doesnt owe you anything. I dont agree with nancy that he’s a user – he might be, but you dont seem to have had a real relationship, and not getting what you want doesnt make the other person a user / abuser. The world doesnt owe you love, like or anything else. I understand how you feel, I know what despair is like; but feelings are not facts. Those are your feelings, your interpretation. You could have a different interoperation. You spent years in a secretive going-nowhere relationship; I think I’ve said this to you before, you have a responsibility here. Was it secret because you were both married?
Are you mourning losing him? Are you mourning the years you could have spent investing in your marriage, other relationships, children, work whatever? Are you mourning being rejected for someone else? Are you mourning his great life and your non-great life? Those are different emotions; the first is loss, the second is regret, the third is feeling small, the fourth is envy. Overlaying all this I see some drama and feelings of depression, panic, despair (you went to the sea, Oh Kirsty, why? I understand it, I do, and I wish you didn’t feel so bad). I hope you can move forward, and one way to do that is to identify your emotions and be tough on yourself, get perspective, and grieve the relationship properly.
Kirsty – this is serious and I am highly concerned about you – I remember your post from before – how could anyone forget it – and am really sad to see you still stuck from before – something many of us have also been through and survived and thrived from in the end – as Natalie describes above we don’t get some immunity from bad things happening but we can aim to at least be in touch with our true feelings and determine a way to act in sync with those feelings so to start with – well done for writing here again. Thank goodness you found somewhere to get it all out.
This community you describe, is incestuous and it is not healthy – even though the propaganda you will feed yourself IS that it is the best – THIS IS AN ILLUSION – the reality is it is healthy to have good clear boundaries and personal space from people/neighbours/other couples – I used to live in a commune for years so I know – and you have non of this!! – your description reminds me of serious enmeshment – you describe YOURSELF as dying and him coming to life – only the reality is, even though it is so painful to you at the moment, it is actually YOU that is coming to life (ie living in reality feeling and acting on true feelings safely) and him that is totally and utterly emotionally dead (living in one illusion after another) with absolutely no sign of ever wanting to change – ever – and he is probably projecting this life he leads as something to live up to or for – like a god, with god like control.
He doesn’t even seem to care who the woman/face/body is!!! – any neighbour will do!? – to accept this is sorded/ emotional sadism in the highest degree and has been sold to you as a fantasy that isn’t real – you have got to put in the highest degree of non contact immediately. IMMEDIATELY. THIS IS AN EMERGENCY. The serious violations of boundaries – that weren’t put in place (don’t take the blame) – make it this way and this way only.
IT IS YOU OR HIM – yes it is that dramatic – you choose – and yes our past hurts unexpressed have a HUGE unconscious influence over us – all the time – find a way to face them safely – ie some form of personal therapy BEFORE they rule you and your decisions for your healing – making you break non contact in order to not appear rude to a member of the walking dead for example. SO YES THIS IS ALSO AN EMERGENCY TO DEAL WITH YOUR PAIN FROM YOUR PAST.
Non contact means what he does from now on is absolutely none of your business – every single thing and that is what you tell all the helpful birds who come to tell you his secrets from now on AND yourself every time you start to stalk him – even if he parades it in front of you –
Also what you do/feel – as far as he is concerned – is none of his business and you tell him so.
Boundary number one – ‘I am sure you are amazing but I am not interested.’ Repeat once only ever and ignore him there after.
Boundary number two – ‘My personal life is none of your business.’
3) Attitude towards interchangeable partners – ‘You guys suit each other, I wish you well.’ (Literally.)
The situation you are currently in, is highly dangerous and sick in the most alarming manner if you do not maintain full non contact immediately I am seriously worried for your well being.
The above boundaries is what you should be aiming for and maintaining with no exceptions. If you are worried this will uncover your ‘secret’ that everybody seems to know apart from your partner – know this he will find out anyway if this continues and suffer worse heartache – so you might as well put your NEEDS for protection from this letch first.
The question you need to ask yourself is – what you think IN REALITY is the best way out of this and make it happen – no exceptions – your health and others lives are at stake here.
Good luck, keep listening to your healthy self instinct.
You say you “can’t” and “won’t” let him go.
If that is true, you are absolutely ensuring future misery.
Sorry to hear of all you’ve been dealing with Nat, but thank u for sharing it with us. Nothing helps soothe the soul quite as much as hearing someone say “me too”. I feel like I’m always beating myself up for still struggling with an issue I should be sooooo over by now. I also relate to how internalizing our pain just stores it somewhere else. My 5 year long ordeal with an EU man I loved madly made me physically sick… reflux, ulcers, pit of my stomach anxiety from the constant cycle of him being thoughtful and attentive and then suddenly treating me like I didn’t exist, it was a constant thrilling yet sickening emotional rollercoaster. I never felt I stood on solid ground with him for long. A lot of reasons I became so sensitized to his behavior, but it was what it was. Suppressing my own needs and values to placate him and cater to his wants destroyed me slowly like acid. No contact, lots of your words of wisdom, and plenty of self care, self love, and eventually the self awareness I had lost in the fog of a toxic relationship that felt like love at the time. Still a work in progress but I’m me again, that much I know. And I also know without a doubt that if loving someone means I can’t love me, then I will always, ALWAYS, choose me. Thank you Nat. I owe so much of my recovery to you and the wealth of insight u and your readers have shared with me!
Nancy – your experience with your childhood sweetheart sounds similar to mine. I think the cruellest thing is how it destroys precious memories of your youth, because you reason that they must have never loved you then either, if they can treat you so badly now.
Also I still don’t know if anything was real, all those loving words…?
Did he just get carried away & overcommit to a future he couldn’t deliver? & then was too cowardly to say so?? Or was it all just a campaign to get into my pants? We won’t get the answers we need, these men lack self-awareness & in fact deliberately don’t look at their actions for fear they’ll be confronted with how terribly they’ve behaved.
I took whatever explanation hurt least, either he’s a weak coward (who I wouldn’t want anyway) but he did love me, as much as he was able & in his own crap way. Or he’s used me deliberately, so I wouldn’t want him then either. I go between the two from day to day!
It does get better.
Like Nat says, the key is to grieve however long it takes, but bring the focus slowly but inexorably back to YOU.
I’m rereading those Feel the Fear & Do It Anyway books & they’re inadvertently helping with this!
& Kirsty – I really feel for you. It sounds an unbearable situation – could you possibly move away? As far as possible…
Yes it would be a massive upheaval for your family, but not on the same scale as what they’d face if you decide you really can’t live any longer, keep being confronted & reminded every day. I too went to the very brink because of the pain my ex man caused me, but thankfully I managed to focus on my children, & held on to my life.
I didn’t intend to write so much! But I did intend to say thank you Natalie, so many of us find your website when at our lowest ebb, & your words & generous sharing of your experiences (which unfortunately seem to be common to many) help lift us up again.
One thing I read when learning about narcissistic personality disorder for the first time (my mother has npd) is that when your eyes are really opened & you finally understand the manipulation for what it is, you can never un-know it. You can’t lose that awareness, or pretend to yourself any longer. & you start to observe & detach emotionally, & then you can’t be hurt anymore by the narcissist’s words/actions. Plus they then move onto a new target, coz you’re no longer giving them the reaction they want. It really does work.
Yes my narc left when he realised I was not going to do what he wanted and destroy myself further, after what he had done to me.
I had already decided years before the point he finally left –
to focus on myself,
he was none of my business anymore,
complete non contact no matter what provocation, including any internet stalking
and independent (from him) support purely for myself and my life.
I never thought he would go – I didn’t even think of it – and when he did I was angry and hurt he didn’t have the balls to face me and say goodbye – but then I realised he never did have any balls and had left me – in the most beautiful place I have ever lived in – mentally and physically.
& I read a lot of comments relating to N assclowns… by which I think refers to people who are so selfish & only consider their own comfort & happiness. Which is definitely a narcissistic tendency.
But a true narcissist will not only be selfish, they’ll be permanently engaged in a one-upmanship battle because their sense of self is so fragile that they MUST feel they’ve won, & the other person has lost.
You wouldn’t be able to have even a quite mundane conversation with a narc without Every. Single. Thing. being twisted round to make the focus all about them. If you succeed at something, they’ll find a way to undermine you. They’ll always have a sly dig at your appearance, often accompanied by a tinkly little laugh, so you’re ALWAYS wondering if you’re taking things the wrong way. If you’re going somewhere nice they’ll be jealous, & start plotting to go somewhere better so they can feel they’ve ‘won’ again. In fact, a really hurtful remark is a sign that your life’s looking pretty good!
It’s baffling & hurtful until you realise there’s a pattern. Death by a thousand tiny snide cuts. Most people will cop on eventually and get the hell away!
Quite tricky when it’s your mother, as it is mine. I have missed out on a lot in my life because of this crazy-making shit teaching me from a young age. It’s been an anti-loreal campaign – you’re NOT worth it! I over-analyse everything, going over & over struggling to double check meanings coz from my experience I can’t trust anything.
But you work through it, you learn that your true narcissist doesn’t love you, isn’t & never has been capable of doing so, & has never been acting in your best interests. & you detach emotionally as much as you can. You lose expectations & accept the limits of the relationship, despite inevitable sadness. And you RUN for the hills, if you can!
So if you’re involved with a npd person, you’d figure it out. Can take a while, mind!
OK, PeachyD. Gotta give you props for the phrase – “anti-loreal” campaign. Funny stuff. I have an NPD mother too. Mother-daughter dynamics are complicated, and NPD exists in varying degrees. But at whatever degree, somewhere along the line of the daughters life, the NPD mother experiences jealousy so intense that it comes out in chopping-the-daughter-down behavior. The left-handed compliment, the non-acknowledgement, the triumphs met with apathy and boredom, the throw-you-under-the-bus behavior.
To Lilia, I appreciate you posting a link to the “out of the fog” site in Nat’s previous thread, because I have been experiencing a roller coaster of fear-anxiety-optimism, and I was wondering why I have such a hard time believing and DOING thinks in my best interest, and I realized how “free” I feel, mentally, when I know my mother is not in my immediate environment – like on a trip somewhere or out with her friends. It’s like her “presence” is mentally stifling, even if we are not interacting. And many times, even without her around I stifle myself. So the “out of the Fog” link on “Infantilization” (which I experienced) led me to the link on “Learned Helplessness” and “ding!ding!ding! – I start to understand myself more.
So, for the emotionally wounded, there is always another layer of healing waiting to be discovered, uncovered, and dealt with. And it seems like it takes some kind of psychic pain for that discovery to begin.
Hi peachy d
I dont want to believe it was all a set up in my case but looking back what he chose to wear the first time we met again was telling (similar shoes to his 18 year old self). He told me once he was not a nice person and I didn’t believe him. So many red flags. I hadn’t had a relationship for 30 years cos of another idiot and then this dickhead looks me up. You couldn’t make it up. I’ve read a lot about npd and he has all the signs. He is charming, funny and everybody loves him. They all probably think he’s wonderful for staying with his wife.he thought’s it was hilarious that she hates me (but not him). I pray he ends up alone cos that is the one thing he is afraid of. X
@nancy. Not to mention that that would be the cure (being alone).
@Peachy D. Great post. Me too. “anti l’oreal campaign” made my day! 🙂 V.
Ihave been grieving many loses in ending my very long term marriage with my emotionally unvailable, people pleasing (but not to me) immature ex – that includes house, community, stability, certain friends and even whoI was and am. I have had layers and layers to examine and Iam often just annoyed at all this processing I need to do. I relate to the grief popping up so intensely in surprising ways that sometimes flatten me. Like seeing men on the street showing consideration or tenderness to their partners. Even a gesture will move me to tears. I also now see that I have more emotionally unavailable people in my life who are thoughtless in similar ways to my ex. How numbed out was I? And it terrifies me to deal with some of these people in a more empowered why. Becausw I know that if you are a whistleblower, you will be punished.
@espresso. Your concern is understandable. So don’t be a whistleblower, just get out of the situations asap. People who don’t want to know won’t learn anything anyway, you’ll be wasting your time at best and “be punished” at worst (though they can’t harm you like when you were a child now). Take care, V.
@espresso,
“I relate to the grief popping up so intensely in surprising ways that sometimes flatten me. Like seeing men on the street showing consideration or tenderness to their partners. Even a gesture will move me to tears.”
I understand what you mean. I was at a school concert and there was a guy sitting in front of me. Soon his wife joined him. As soon as she sat down, he put his arm around her and she put her head on his shoulder. My reaction… I don’t GET to have THAT. Why am I not good enough for THAT? Because, here I am, sitting alone AGAIN like I always do. Day after day. Week after week. Month after month. Year after year. And I never HAVE that shoulder to lean on. Yes, that small gesture that is such a basic expression of love had me fighting to hold back from crying like an idiot in public. My reaction was so intense, triggered by other people’s normal, caring behavior. It pointed out the thing I want and continue to go without. And then I heard *my* song, and my feelings of loss intensified. Then the song became my name here.
Say Something,
sweetie, you have a case of the PLOM’s (Poor Little Old Me) going at the moment and this too will pass once you let go of the fantasy of that dude or any others you have been involved with, you call BGE. You put him up on that fantasy BGE pedestal and then expected him to be Mr Wonderful forever, that NEVER was going to happen dear girl.
Too much pressure on anyone trying to live up to someone’s ideal. No one can.
As for the couple you saw, let them enjoy their moment without putting yourself in a negative light, their moment has nothing to do with you.
This is where you have to start building your own life and working towards your own happiness even if there will never be another partner in it.
Don’t project anything negative into a future or this will just become a self fulfilling prophecy. Stay open and positive to whatever the future will bring, that’s all anyone can do.
Hi Pauline,
I know what I wrote makes me sound like a whiney asshole, and would never say it out loud because I know how it would be received. Still, it doesn’t change what I am feeling.
In the last couple weeks I’ve spent time with some women (friends somewhat) that I’ve known for years. In both groups, they’re all married, long-term. I am the ONLY one who isn’t. And I smiled politely as the majority of the conversations were about their husbands, and fathers day, and their family vacations, and more about husbands. And sometimes it’s hard to sit and smile, and listen, and feel ok. I don’t have a husband, or father. Sometimes, like MJ said, I feel like a misfit. Am I just jealous? I don’t know. I know I just don’t feel ‘right’ or ‘normal’ or ‘happy’. There was no enjoyment.
For as long as I can remember, I was the strong one, good example, role model, organizer, leader, in many aspects of my life. Expected growing up, being the oldest. Required because I choose to have kids, and that was a choice so I am not at all complaining about that. But, I didn’t get the support in my marriage that would have been helpful, and had to work harder. And I DID ask for that help, just didn’t get it. Different story. And after my BGE crash and burn, my closest friends commented that they had never seen this side of me. Had never seen me cry, or ever hear me say things I was saying.
All my life I’ve ‘held it together’ or ‘pulled it back together’ no matter what. No matter what. I have tried so hard to grow, see others’ perspectives, to accept, make responsible decisions, understand, live with what I have and what I don’t have, make the best of things along the way. But I feel like I’ve been hurled into a hole of pain.
My father died when I was in college. I didn’t tell people, beyond close friends, because I didn’t want to be ‘whiney’ and I didn’t want them feeling bad for me. I remember a girl in one class telling me the art professor was angry that I had missed a class. Later, I didn’t openly tell people, only close friends, about my divorce, though word spread like wildfire. I don’t like to broadcast my personal life, like some do. I never want to appear needy.
My pedestal was/is so low. I never expected perfection or him to be ‘everything’. I don’t need someone else to tell me what to do, or give me money, or revolve his life around me. I just wanted him to like me, treat me well, and want to share his life with me. And he made me believe we were headed in that direction. I didn’t project unreasonable expectations or demands on him. My expectation was basic- that he WAS the good guy, that actually liked me and wanted me in his life, and that we were in a positive relationship. If that is too much “pressure” on someone, I give up. My still missing him, because obviously he doesn’t like me, is messed up. I get that. HOW he abruptly ended things has messed me up beyond belief. I know this too. I still feel rejected, betrayed, and deceived. I will keep looking at what I can expect of someone else and what I expect of myself. If I could say that I will be happy being single and MEAN it, problem solved.
@Say Something, I don’t know if it’ll work but I wanted to share this: at some point (after discovering BR for sure) my perception in these kinds of situations shifted 180. Now I tear up like an idiot but because I FEEL so touched by other people’s love towards each other. Every time I see a tender gesture, an understanding silence or anything of that kind it serves as a PROOF THAT LOVE EXISTS IN THIS WORLD. And that one day I’ll get to receive and give this love in safety of being valued and understood. These are examples that there are healthy & mature people in this world.
Thank you Why,
What a great outlook. Normally I find myself being able to reframe a situation, introduce a different POV, or possibly play devil’s advocate. What you said beams with hope. I think I’m hypersensitive to noticing those instances, like I’m constantly observing all couples as if something unknown might be revealed to me. I’d like
to believe what you said too.
On a lighter note, and thinking of one of Elgie’s comments, I was walking through a parking lot the other night and to my left, an older woman and her husband were making their way to the car. He was diagonally across from/ ahead of her, and both were hobbling along on canes, maybe 80ish. I thought awww. And then I heard her bitching him out! “When someone asks if your wife wants something, you say…” (there was more yelling, can’t remember exactly what, but she was reprimanding him loudly.) I couldn’t help myself and shouted, “That’s why I’m not married.” She yelled back to me, and I could swear she said, “You lucky son of a bitch!” I kinda laughed a little.
Say Something,
Want a good laugh? You have to listen to this guided meditation video. Wiser is this the type of meditation you were suggesting? This is just hilarious. I do believe guided meditation is important and will be joining a group to do this. Not like this, but same thought process.
Also, another form of relaxation for me is a 90 minute heated yoga class. I leave my problems on the mat.
Freedme take a look at this.
http://iaf.tv/2015/07/09/guided-meditation-fuck-that/?_ga=1.79741585.762294318.1436406235
This is exactly what I meant! LOL. I remember a great meditative exercise my therapist recommended – to pedal my bike as hard as I could while shouting “F*ck you!” at the top of my voice over and over in rhythm to the pedaling. It was great! Very therapeutic. I just had to find a nice quiet country road where no one could hear me. 🙂
@Wiser… I need to see YOUR therapist.
I LOVE MY BIKE!!! And I think it makes a huge difference. I love the thought of screaming that. What did happen to me a few times was I’d just get my heart rate at its hardest and a big cry would come ripping out… on the bike.. on a crowded bike trail. Don’t know why I had to do it right then but I’m sure I was a strange sight. It surprised me too!! lol.. I don’t take that trail now.
Totally my kind of meditation! I am not good at slow, purposeful, concentrated activites like meditation and pilates. I am def more action oriented. Maybe that’s why I related to your marathon walking sessions. But I feel my activity level (need for moving) dropping off and that too scares me. Totally loved the video 🙂
And thank you, NML, for being a lifeline and the best kick ass role model on the Internet.
Mary Jane, this made me laugh out loud, something I haven’t done enough of lately. Thank you for sharing it and making my day a little brighter.
Mary Jane,
Ha ha! That’s a keeper! My kind of meditation.
Nat,
THANK YOU for all the work you do the post these helpful pieces for everyone at BR. This post on loneliness is so helpful. I truly appreciate all of your efforts. I like your new upgrades you have made on the site. Congrats to you on being here to soothe so many of us.
Loneliness is one of those feelings where if you scratch the proverbial itch with the wrong scratcher, you will get temporary relief but the feeling will return until you scratch it with the right solution – healthy self-soothing.
Freedme you may want to read this one.
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/dont-scratch-the-loneliness-itch-with-the-wrong-scratcher/
I Believe (in Everything) By JJ Grey and Mofro
I believe in everything
from a river running backwards
to a bee when it stings
and I believe
in the voices out here
telling me to hold on
but let go of my fear
A childhood imagination
has been my salvation
one cloud at a time
lord I’m dreaming
let me look upon her
one more time
this beauty that I love – she’s why
I believe in everything, in everything, I’m a believer
I believe in what I can’t change
in a hard lesson learned
and the strength from my pain
and I believe
in what I can’t prove
in the joy of not knowing
and the misunderstood
let go of my past
let go of my future
one cloud at a time
yes I’m dreaming
let me look upon her
one more time
this beauty that I love
before she’s gone, before she’s gone
I believe in everything, in everything I’m a believer
I believe in everything, in everything I’m a believer
the memory of one moment
is the beginning and the end of who I am
I believe in everything, in everything, I’m a believer
I believe in everything, in everything, I’m a believer
I believe, I believe, I believe in everything, in everything, I’m a believer
I believe, I believe, I believe in everything, in everything, I’m a believer
Doo-doo-doo-dooo
Doo-doo-doo-dooo
Doo-doo
Tell me about something, tell me about something you
believe in, you believe in, wooooooooo
Tell me about something, tell me about something you
believe in, you believe in, hold onto that, hold on to that…
Now. tell me about something you believe in, why you believe it, ohhhhhhhhhhhh
Dooo-doo-dooo…..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeFE7vaSRZc
Thank YOU for being YOU Natalie,
God Bless, ,<3
Yes. All I have is Yes. As a coach myself and someone who has been through the ringer, I too have found myself having to practice and re-practice what I have learned. I even re-read my own book! LOL After all, we teach what we are learning. Kudos to you, sister, for sharing your candid experience. It’s these types of open blogs that heal the masses. They give all of us permission to feel/do/be the same. Healing comes in waves. This I have learned. Just when I thought, “Whew, I’m done” another piece enters. I appreciate you. Sincerely, KB
Really bad couple of days. Very close to my limit. I may have reached it. I cleaned out my desk in case I have. I was VERY wrong about my boss. I feel so foolish. I don’t understand how people can be so cruel.
I feel like a pawn in a very twisted game where I don’t know the rules.
If the was the shit I dealt with as a child, I was so fucked.
I think so Veracity. I haven’t been following your last posts but in regards to previous ones I have always detected an undercurrent of sadism in the situations you described. I have always had the impression that you weren’t fully aware of how bad you had it. Don’t take offence, I identify a lot with you. The most important thing is to realise that you already made it – you’re an adult now – and whatever work you do is cleaning the wounds. You survived already. Best, V.
Oh gosh, I’m sorry you’re having a bad time Veracity. Maybe it’s time to let this job go and find one where you will be respected and where YOU feel good. It sounds like it’s been nothing but BS at this job with a bunch of flaky, ego inflated, insecure people. And very unprofessional… No matter how good of a job you do you will be pulled into their crazy messes. Hang in there and do what is best for you and your peace of mind.
Veracity,
Work can never own your soul. You get to keep that for yourself. It can suck, and it does for you right now. But you NEVER have to get too personal, and you never have to give yourself away. Keep looking for what you want because you need to be happy. Stay strong.
sounds like you work for a psychopath or something close to it.
I hear you. Stay calm, avoid sudden decisions, and take care of yourself.
Veracity – your instincts are exceptional – don’t panic this is your chance to stop the pattern in full flow – find some space – listen to your instincts clearly and plan what you need to do – remember you will survive no matter what – and it will be better.
I wonder what happened to you Veracity and hope you are ok? I am worried you have mistaken this current situation as not being able to see what is going on – you did see it – read back your posts – your initial instincts were plain to read over the weeks – and then somehow you denied yourself the information afterwards and changed it to suit something else – were you frightened? when you get to why? and how? it was changed and your real needs denied – and put in place strategies to stop it happening to you again, you will be able to fully protect yourself from this ongoing cycle and opt out.
In the meantime good luck to you Veracity and I hope it has turned around by now. You did a good job – a really really good job – under exceptionally difficult circumstances – don’t take it hard – I suspect it was better and quicker than you have done before, at seeing what was going on? but having faith in your instinct/what you are seeing and experiencing – can be something else entirely but well worth learning because the next time you will KNOW that you deserve to take the option of what ever it was you denied yourself doing this time round.
You have to face whatever the fear is and deal with it to protect yourself – even if it is just the first step and then follow it up – we can’t run and pretend its not happening in the adult world it never goes away sadly – unless they want to con you some more/use you some more.
I’m just seeing this message now, Oona. I hope you find this response.
First of all, thank you for your genuine concern and ongoing support! I’m grateful my PTSD episode didn’t scare you off/cause you to reject me.
You are so right. I saw it, all of it. Then a part of me wanted to change my mind, make it better than it was, make me wrong instead of him. I bought into the manipulations, wanted to believe. Something that I did to protect myself from the truth. I finally faced a lot of painful truths, one of which is that my parents were, in fact, sadistic and I was supposed to pretend that they weren’t or that I deserved it and, of course, smile and walk my excruciatingly fine line of appropriate responses.
I know what the fear was. It’s a fear that no adult (child) should have. Unfortunately, it wasn’t an irrational fear.
I did protect myself. I faced it and I’m free!
Thank you again for your kindness and wisdom, Oona.
If you’ve had enough Veracity, leave. Don’t look back just go.
It’s not worth your health or peace of mind to stay in this toxic situation.
Dear Veracity… a virtual hug for you. I hope you get better soon. V.
Send some nasty porn mags to his attention at work? In his name? 🙂
No .. don’t listen to me..
Thank you for this timely post and I am sorry to hear you have been going through a tough time.
I recently started therapy to help me cope with my last co-dependent relationship involving a narcissist AC. I started therapy because I always thought I suffered from fear of abandonment (my father was always emotionally distant, hardly ever made time for me after my parents divorced when I was 6 year old,etc). Turns out my mother who has undiagnosed narcissist personality disorder had a play in my upbringing as well…
I was never shown how to love or receive love in a healthy way from neither of my parents and I am now taking the time to heal and learn to do to exactly that. It’s difficult, and there are set backs, like you mentioned, but it all starts with yourself. With learning how to love yourself.
Thank you for all your work and I hope things will look brighter again soon.
My last post was full of typos so ugh. What I have been struggling to say is that life keeps throwing up pain especially when we are trying to be more aware and authentic but are still having to sometimes deal with people who knew us when we weren’t so aware. In my own family and among some old friends I still feel pressure to be the support person and the strong one who doesn’t have or communicate needs or wants. I suppressed my voice so sometimes am scared to use it knowing I will be rejected or punished. I have made some deep new friends where this isn’t an issue but the family relationships are important to me. Being in a marriaged where I was emotionally punished for speaking up for years has meant that it takes a lot of courage to do so.
And being more aware has meant I am clearer about relationships where I have choice. I have two longer term friends who I have to acknowledge to myself are passive aggressive and ambivalent about me. In one case I jusr realized she actually can’t be bothered to expend much effort on communication. It hurt me to fundamentally realize this truth but I promised myself I would never again tie myself in knots to meet her very restrictive schedule. It got to be that instead of acknowedging the true situation, I was starting to engage in a pissing contest about “being busy” I make time for my friends and my friends make time for me in a respectful way. Anyway, just to say that personal change is like an octopus with tentacles that reach everywhere. Sometimes it just feels like an awful lot of work
Yep expresso you wrote a really good description of this situation, I’ve had similar experiences after I woke up and realised what was going on fully – the only salvation for me was in recognising always – that i had a choice – not necessarily an easy choice but a choice – and in respect to my family – after years of trying and it not working for me – I chose something different. We all want to keep even the most damaging of relationships with family but sometimes it really isn’t healthy so finding a choice we are happy and healthy with is crucial for us.
The ‘friends’ of mine went pretty quickly in comparison – and damn it was really lonely with both gone – but then I made/am making concerted efforts to write online and meet new people/ do all the things I’ve always wanted to … and eventually find my rocks as you have done.
Yep so far this year I have experienced an onslaught of things destroying the few things I had worked hard to put in place over the winter period. My beautiful new hazelnut trees x5, old bay tree, pear tree, striking dogwood, old lavenders, tomatoes, sage, blackcurrent bush and one lupin all succumbed to blight after 4 years here blown in on prevailing winds early to mid spring and simply destroyed the trees one by one. It should be called the devils scorch not blight – they even look scorched as if they have been in a fire. Leaving me going from a beautifully green lush thriving garden to suddenly surrounded by a diseased morgue – that could potentially contaminate other healthy plants on any breeze or rain. All because someone else within a 3 mile radius can’t be bothered to check and sort their own trees out. My neighbour has also decided to stick with the diseased plants in their garden that have it and there is no talking to them.
In order to rescue other plants before also going, I have had to accept it, set up an immediate containment/clearing policy – with extra vigilant watching and checking of all plants regularly for their health. Question whether I stay organic in this very hostile environment and resolve that I wouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water – even if that does mean I would have to tolerate extra work, experiments/possible losses and research to find answers that will work. Only buying disease resistant plants – which don’t happen to be many of the wonderful plants I had. Being extra careful to feed, water and maintain the health of other plants meanwhile with regular pain in the hands spraying of neem to help them resist diseases. Loping off and contain immediately, any leaves and branches that look anything like blight – research and use black plastic, water and sunlight to sterilize the soil for next years replanting for a couple of months. Accept that instead of my usual summer display of thriving summer fruits and flowers the unsightly and depressing black plastic and recycled water jars holding them down in the wind and rain.
I know its not a relationship with humans but it has been devastating to experience, exhausting to maintain/rescue what little I could and soul destroying to feel all that potential, hard work and effort – destroyed – just like in my relationships. Meanwhile my surgeon seems to have decided to take long leave from helping me – after 8 operations in two years, who could blame him, and has taken up asking me questions he is responsible for asking in order to determine what he should be doing next , then mocking me during the answers he doesn’t want to hear – twice, my 2nd therapist has gone kapput due to countertransferance I believe, after a brilliant that was excellent and brilliant help retired before the conclusion of my therapy – causing problems with other support I have, due to the fact they are all friends as well as colleagues and not acting independantly or questioning what happened or prepared to listen to me for real,it seems, my landlords have done exactly zip to fix the leak in my roof despite it being four years and restore the room/ paint the large wall that has had no paint on….etc….
I am done.
This is the life I am living under stress and extreme provocation but this time I have no need to destroy myself further for it. It is just very difficult and I have learned great great lessons and will always try to from my disasters in the future which realistically won’t stop once I sort these ones out.
This time I have learned about timing and foundations and acting on your choices/instinct. You cannot build on shaky foundations no matter how much you want to. And you may get away with being late once but never more than this – it needs to be investigated and the problem found. If you choose a tree when it is cheap, dormant and masked due to no leaves in the winter – then don’t be surprised when it turns out to be unhealthy and defoliated – no matter what beautiful shape its branches are in.
All these things I predicted and saw coming – including the garden – foundations in dealing with healthier soils and timing planting things earlier during autumn not late winter early spring, would have helped the new trees roots get a grip during winter before the big energy busting push during spring and summer, and totally helped in making the plants as healthy and as full of energy as possible in order to repel diseases. Timing in spraying earlier and more confidently to put a barrier in place from pests and disease carriers. Choosing to listen, to my instincts over buying 2 of the trees – that I was getting a right steal – for real.
And acceptance – that sometimes you just can’t have it all but that does not mean you give up and stop growing completely. It means I learn, get rid of the problem, sterilize the earth with some sun and water, ready for new trees and pick healthy plants when you can see them at their best and plant in autumn – at the right time – giving them ample time to establish themselves – not pushing it and bringing it early or late in order to forfil my fantasy organic garden dream.
I could easily give up – I have been mocked by the farm pestacide loving landlord for my dying food garden – in all of this I realized I was actually learning things I didn’t know before – this doesn’t make me an idiot or loser as I feared – because no one knows everything about their subjects – even david attenborough. Some greek philosopher somewhere stated the only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing. And so in looking at the garden – all the soil is there cooking itself in order to be fully ready for a few months time, when I choose a healthier trees and have the foundations fully ready to actually plant them at the right time.
As for the other things – I am on to them – while my garden sterilizes itself with the sun and water…
Funny thing is – I remember feeling absolutely exhausted in the spring and knew I couldn’t maintain what I was doing and reap the rewards for it.
So yes Natalie – I know what you mean by saying – its been annus horribles – but also that actually you can see why it was necessary to learn and experience – and to understand that sometimes it just sucks but that doesn’t mean we are to take all the responsibility for it or throw everything we do out – just the stuff not helping us. Better luck for us all next year.
Oona,
Did you say you have had 8 surgeries? In spite of your health challenges many of your posts (offering support to others) are so positive.
STAY POSITIVE. I wish you all the best as you sort through everything.
MJ
Oh Mary Jane are you worried about me?
There is no need on my account – as I explained above even though my life is no beach, I support myself excellently and that’s why I can offer help to others, while dealing with problems in my life.
Do you find it difficult to stay positive? Sometimes its quite useful, NOT to be positive – for pure safety reasons and to feel your feelings fully in order to act on them fully – I aim for well balanced and healthy, personally but thanks anyway.
Look after yourself MJ. Love and sunshine…
I suppose in short, what I have learned with the garden is that you cannot account for every eventuality and stop all things bad from happening – sometimes you just have to accept it may from time to time, learn from it/ not use it to beat yourself up and put new plans in place before trying again – with better information guiding you.
Dear Oona, So much wisdom, honesty, perseverance, and acceptance in that post.
I’m sorry you’ve faced so many losses/setbacks.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but I’m concerned about your surgeon’s behavior. “has taken up asking me questions he is responsible for asking in order to determine what he should be doing next , then mocking me during the answers he doesn’t want to hear – twice” It sounds unprofessional, disrespectful and cruel. I can blame him. Nothing justifies this. You haven’t done anything wrong by needing surgery. You are not responsible for telling him what he wants to hear!
I wish you well and I hope you find a wonderful new surgeon and therapist, if that is what you want. You deserve to be supported by professionals who are really there for you, providing you the very best care.
You’ve endured so much and have stayed strong and haven’t allowed yourself to become hardened by it. You are still empathetic and compassionate. It says so much about you and your character.
Good job recognizing the stuff that’s not helping you and chucking it! Still growing and getting better, well done!
Thank you Veracity – I think perhaps like you, I am a loving person who’s been through so much its hard to hate others for bad things – I am learning its about loving and listening to myself more – every time – and finding choices to do the things I feel I have no choice about/can’t do but would like to if I could – even if it is one small step followed by one tiny small step to get there — and on that thought yes I am looking at the surgeon/consultant problem next. I have no idea what to do yet – I feel I have no choice but I’m not going to ignore it – I have bought myself some time to deal with the therapist first, one thing at a time – but its going in the right direction happily with a few bumps and knocks to help keep me awake…hope you were able to handle what ever happened at work / process it with full compassion for yourself if things didn’t go as you’d have liked and compassion if things did go well – you deserve it – it was – from the reading of it a really hard job and place to work. Life is better than that and there are better people than that who need to know us and us know them – who are we to stop this process?
Thank you guys for the messages and responding. I think it is more clear to me what you mean. Lack of empathy at the core…bottom line. Cant relate or comprehend it but i am accepting it. And that does not mean these people have ALL bad qualities but as ive read on BR – must look at whole package. And inability to feel empathy for others close to you is like dealing with a ghost, the walking dead, a soul not awakened.
And is catching if you accept it and suppress your own needs.
And inability to feel empathy for others close to you is like dealing with a ghost, the walking dead, a soul not awakened.
Well said Charlotte!
Thank you, Natalie.
For me, going into therapy ten years ago for 3.5 years marked a huge turning point. Since then, I have been able to go into relationships with more objectivity and care for myself as well as hope for the relationship. Of course, developing objectivity can also be mistaken for growing a huge denial skin, but if you are in therapy/journalling/talking to friends about what’s going on, then you are processing stuff too.
My temperament is one that leads very much from the emotions, so the therapy helped me a great deal. At last, here was someone who taught me how to listen as well as listening to me. As an eldest, it’s always been me doing the sorting, listening, the emotional barometer, the peace-keeper in the family. Even now I have to hold myself back from jumping in to ‘explain’ everything that’s going on so that tempers can subside and peace can be restored.
Now, as far as I’m concerned, it’s THEIR responsibility.
To be able to gain objectivity has been a great gift. It means that I can treat BOTH the new man AND myself with love, care, trust and respect, instead of jump in with both feet, letting go of myself.
Loved this post.
JeniP
I had to read this article again… When I read it the first time I was triggered. But, it did open my mind.
How do you deal with the all the pain you feel when “friends” suddenly abandon you? Start to send out the vibe that they don’t respect you anymore, find you juvenile, look down on you because you’re not progessing as fast as they are in careers or life achievements or what the fuck over..feeling abandoned because you’re not “cool” anymore…
How do you deal with the anger of a horrifically nasty ex-boyfriend getting everything he wants in life (yes I know, shoving my face in vomit, it’s a bad trait, but when I feel down i compulsively do it).
all he ever did during our relationship was to let me know how i was an inferior person and how i would never be as successful, smart, talented, interesting, “deep” as his ex girlfriend and DEFINITELY not him. He cut me so deep, I moved to a different country for two years, not only is he fucking achieving all his goals (god fucking damnit), he has a new perfect girlfriend who looks like a more attractive version of me, and these so called “very close friends” (conveniently the ones who also abanoned me) still contact him and are his friends.
they introduced me to him, btw.
but I guess I am now to be dropped like a hot potato. Well gee, I’m so glad I was so nice to them and always trying to include them in everything and spending all this gas money to see them even though I’m surviving on a part time wage right now only to be thrown away like a piece of fucking trash.
but said friends decided to literally disinvite me from our plans because some rich people invited them to a different party and for some reason I was the only one not invited.
i feel like if I don’t become a success and get out of this rut soon, all of their negative assessments of me will be right….i am so sick of human beings in general yet as an extrovert i need them to survive, and all of my friends are dropping me like flies because I guess I am no longer “interesting” or “fun”.
i just wish I could cease to exist sometimes.
I long for the day when I can prove all these fucking people wrong, and then cut ties without fear as they come all groveling back to me, but what if that never happens… i am trying though..but it just feels like i’ll never be “cool”. never be worth respecting.
B, that is a crappy thing to happen. I will say the following some of which you also mention; sometimes we over-interpret what others do. Sometimes our behavior triggers them. Sometimes we are both over each other and so its a spiral of wanting to ignore the other person. Tbh they dont sound like your friends, and probably never were and you just didn’t notice. I read somewhere that sometimes we choose ambiguous men and ambiguous friends.
My real friends would NOT give me over for some ‘rich’ folks party – and if they did they would own up to it and say ‘hey I have to go to this networking thing i’m sorry’ – see? Thats not that hard to say. Plus you are angry. This will turn others away. Its time to gracefully walk away.
Dont be angry in life because theres a whole world out there that didn’t do anything to you. Also people have their own crap to deal with and your friends are human, and might be feeling awkward about you breaking up with this guy. He’s an ass and has no feelings so he’s unfortunately probably easier to hang on to – they dont want to deal with your sense of loss and anger over him and this is a common fallout when we date within our social circle.
These people sound like people you’ve outgrown. Get out, some friends are friends only for a time. I get along better with those that many people would see as ‘non’ cool (most people see me as ‘cool’). I find them non-pretentious, reliable, easygoing, and honest (non self-deceiving). I meet them and come away refreshed and comforted, rather than high or excited. So yes, I think the non-cools are actually cooler, they have nothing to prove. And I like people with nothing to prove.
Cool is as cool does. You have learnt some lessons though you dont realize it – your friends sound like they’re 12 years old and in middle school. You can do better. Why you were hanging out with people that dont get you is the question you should ask. You dont need others to validate you. You dont have to put up with those that invalidate you. You may or may not be cool, ‘cool’ is often b.s. words for people that go along and dont cause trouble and have no values – you’re YOU and there are plenty plenty people out there that will look at you and think boy that person is cooollllll, i like her.
I had someone say to me recently as I complained about how my social circle and ex-EUM’s presence was triggering me; they said how do you want to spend your time on this earth? What are your values? Who do you want to be with?
You are continuing to hang out with people that think you’re not cool and tbh you’re not ready to admit but you dont think they’re cool either.
You’re mad to be dumped by people you dont like – so its not that you’ll miss them, you fear loneliness. [i’ve said this before, when we are rejected by EUMs it hurts soooo bad because we never liked these guys really to begin with – how dare HE dump me! that loser! i got rejected dumped thrown over excluded tossed aside kicked to the curb – by a loser!! of course we went against our better judgment to get involved in the first place and stay involved]
Center yourself. Find and process your anger. Anger against the world will eat you up. The world doesnt owe you anything, not friendship, not nothing. You have to stand up for yourself and there a LOT of people out there that won’t even put you in the position where you have to. You’ll be fine. Find some grown ups to hang out with.
You dont need ‘success’ – these people dont define that. You are insecure right now and you can’t blame them for it. Start small, work on doing things you like – this will show you what you like and make you your own person and remove some of your resentment. Dont do anything you dont like (I mean you should show up to work! But anything non-work, non-family – avoid avoid avoid). You dont owe these people anything either.
Yes, B. There are people who care about what you feel. Your post touched me because I could hear in it that “Here is someone who is not liking herself.” You think your problems are all outside of yourself, caused by others, but your problems are inside you. If “all he ever did” was make you feel less than, then why did you stay? I think you stayed because you pinned all your needs for validation on this man and his social set. Why? Why do you think you are “less than”? What is it you want to do but have convinced yourself that you can’t do? Time to turn yourself on to self-validation. Stop spending all this energy thinking about people you don’t even know or like. They don’t control your future – unless you let them.
Your instincts are telling you something – that there is a compatibility issue going on here that you need to resolve for your own needs.
You are saying you feel:-
1) You are NOT accepted by your friends for who you are currently.
2) That your friends possibly judge people based on superficial judgments/values.
It is for you to be honest with yourself and work out whether you agree with them? (What are YOUR real values?)
If you do agree with them what you are going to do about it?
If you don’t agree what you are going to do about it?
Then get on with it and not look back…Good luck
B,
Just received this link today and thought of your comment.
http://esteemology.com/the-day-i-knew-it-was-time-to-say-goodbye/
Haven’t checked in here in a while but as always full of wisdom when I do.
All these challenges we face are unavoidable. How we cope is the where we find meaning. I am so happy to find good guidance here. Like many here relationships are my arena for personal development. Great to find good guidance here. It’s not about the loser boyfriends or husbands it’s about us. We can send them energy that they expand their horizons on life as we expand ours. So many times my heart was breaking to the point I thought I would die from it all thru self destructive responses to perceived rejection and I would read here and get a grip. What a great place. Thank you so much
Qh
@Suki and everyone:
Suki, you wrote this excellent phrase in your reply to Nancy’s comment ” When its about you, an authentic person will come and tell you that – hey, you do that thing, it upsets me, how do we fix this. They won’t just start stonewalling and gas lighting and all the rest of it”.
Could you and the gals here do a sanity check/explain this to me? I am a grown ass woman but I still have HUGE problems when it comes down to this.
In my first serious long-term relationship my bf was a bit distant at times and although I did not feel needy, he’d still sometimes NOT discuss anything with me.
In my last relationshit with a happily girlfriended man he did this almost all the time (at the end). He would disappear and not reply to emails or, if we were physically together in the same space, he’d just shut down and not say a word. Later he’d say it was him being mature (unlike me) and not willing to participate in an emotional roller coaster. The result of that was, in my mind, that none of the issues were ever addressed and solved and this might have been his goal. At the end we were miserable and just drowning in those unaddressed issues. However, I still feel he kind of had a point – I might get too emotional with these and man do tend to shut down. Now, how do I distinguish between the healthy and the unhealthy reaction? How much time should pass? Any tips?
It’s no longer about those past relationships, it’s a sanity check for me and my future relationships.
I’d be grateful for any comments.
@Why; your relationship with the girlfriended man – is not authentic in my opinion so the only real ‘authenticity’ in such a relationship is actually people being super casual, no expectations, and basically leaving each other alone except for good times (sex, going out, chats that pretend to be deep but never really can be because underneath is a basic deception). So you are looking for authenticity in the wrong place in that situation. By forcing authenticity or asking for something real, you actually break the basic rules of that situation which is only pretend authenticity to cover up the deception. So that will never go down well.
In relationships that have at least the potential to be authentic; the question is how do you tell someone that something is bothering you (and similarly how can you be ready to be told that thing). You can. I’ve found that its more important to find people that you dont need to tell this to – I’ve never had to tell my close friends which is why they’re my close friends – I either forgive them silently in my mind, compromise, humor them, ask them hey whats up you seem stressed, plus these are basically decent people and they dont eff with my mind. [I also tell them ‘oh i can’t talk about this now it makes me stressed’ and they listen].
You should call people out if you’re at your wits end and if you cannot easily get out of the relationship – e.g. if you’re married, you need to more proactively talk through situations. If I was casually dating someone and they were doing things that were driving me mad (and note that this also means that I’m realistic about what can drive me mad, and am not being a drama-glutton) — if I couldn’t change this situation without a ‘serious’ conversation, I’d probably cut my losses and walk away. [in fact, I tend to have those conversations, and I know that having them usually ends the relationship which is often what I want. So I save those conversations for deal breakers; the rest of the time, I try to arrange the situation to my advantage rather than calling people out. E.g. if someone is always going to be late, I’d rather stop hanging out with them or just be flexible rather than have a serious ‘talk’. No one likes the talk. I dont.]
My close friends have never had a talk with me about what i did to them. They do have the ‘talk’ with me all the time about what I am generally doing with my life – these ladies, like BR folks, are not easy on me! But that is different.
I am not giving you a straight answer because I can’t – my only straight answer is that usually it is NOT worth telling people what you think about them until you are ready to do it in an authentic way and you know they can take it authentically. That is tricky.
Perhaps some of it is the basic things we tell each there in BR:
– you can’t change other people only yourself.
– you need to be flexible and not carry a huge chip on your shoulder
– you need to know your values and boundaries so you know when people cross them
You have also another question about men and emotions. You’re wondering if you’re driving people away. If your long term bf didn’t want to talk about serious things and you didn’t mind that — then whats the problem??? Why do you have to talk? Doesnt Natalie have a post on ‘women who talk too much’. Talk is also a measure of our own desire for validation, our desperation for someone to agree. I dont mean conversation. I mean ‘talk’ – the kind where you’re like – no no, you dont understand me, no when i said that i meant… which is when you said, but i’ve always wondered that, no no you dont understand what i mean, no, look, listen, here, the thing is, no, you dont understanddddddd.
If you find yourself doing that, run away! because it means this person triggers you.
At heart; [i have to stop writing so much!] — know what you feel and respond accordingly. If people make you happy, spend more time. If people make you anxious, step away. If people treat you like crap, run run run. For that you have to trust yourself to validate your own emotions and judgments. [I am still learning this all the time, but I am getting so much better at it!].
@Suki, I’ve re-read this 3 times already and this is pure gold. You’ve opened my eyes to some of the things (esp. about “the talk” being just a proxy for wanting to solve or end or validate) I have not seen myself before. Thank you so much for taking time to write it. It really is appreciated.
@Why: I have just answered to you above too.
Why – “Now, how do I distinguish between the healthy and the unhealthy reaction?” – here’s (my) tip: YOUR REACTION IS ALWAYS HEALTHY.
The more you embrace it, the more you will be able to ride it to the best of the outcomes.
I don’t know what other words to use to convey this message, that all of your needs are healthy and deserve your attention.
“and although I did not feel needy”/”I might get too emotional with these and man”: what does this even mean? Only a man who is emotionally immature and a coward would tell his girlfriend that she is ‘needy’ instead of dealing with the issue at hand. I’m afraid you might have learned this language from your father, check this out if you can.
Do you know why you have used conditionals in these sentences (I *might* get too emotional)? I bet a part of you knows that that is not the case. You were not too emotonal, they are emotion-less – that’s why we call them EUMs around here.
Well this is what I think anyway.
Best, V.
Good questions – I understand the sanity check thing after being with a Narc in my last relationship – my personal alarm checks are
if I am losing things suddenly,
if I’m having accidents suddenly which is out of the ordinary for me,
being ill or anxious about anything
or feeling I have to be somebody else
– that is enough for me to ACT to put an end to that anxiety and I expect to be helped for a positive win win resolution, not shut down.
I was told a number of chopping things during my life I believed to stop me from addressing the un-addressable and keep me submissive to others needs and in poor relationships longer than I should have been. My advice – don’t go there for anyone. If anyone else other than yourself, is controlling/editing your form or ability to communicate your needs – you have no way to connect with them – and fundamentally no relationship anymore anyway.
Your issue with this says one of your needs IS to be with someone who is willing to listen to you AND communicate with you fully and help work through things with you – not shut down. When you shut down and say nothing – even though there is an elephant in the room – you are essentially playing dead – and you can’t have a thriving relationship with a dead person as far as I am aware?
Whether you are emotional or not is irrelevant – if you are, its not going to help by shutting you up more – you need to let it out – in order to KNOW you can deal with things with them and relax. What relationship doesn’t have emotional stuff to deal with together?
I should say – if I am shut down when I ask for help – I see it as a sign that I am possibly being set up to not achieve what ever it is that I am meant to be achieving within a relationship with this person and I make sure I protect myself immediately ie more distance from them emotionally and physically, support elsewhere etc…
@Why; I wrote you a long response and it seems to be gone! So to recap; I dont think the relationship with the girlfriended man could ever be authentic. So by attempting to get ‘answers’ from him, you were breaking the cardinal rule of such relationships – that they are based on deception and therefore cannot be authentic. So the only way to have these relationships and not go crazy is to be casual, have no expectations, and keep fooling yourself. When you try to make it real, it creates bad feelings since it cannot by definition be real. The guy was retreating from you because you were breaking the rules by trying to have a ‘real’ relationship with him while he saw his gf as being his ‘real’ or primary relationship.
He might well have been gas lighting. But as we have said in this forum, you cannot change others, definitely not those that gaslight, definitely not those that are cheating their partners and gaslight you. What can you expect? Again, that guy was rational in avoiding any emotional roller coaster conversation, he did you a favor. The relationship didn’t merit a ‘real’ conversation about feelings and issues.
Re; other relationships where the possibility of being authentic exists at least. I wrote a lot (!) and I dont even remember – but I think I was saying that there is no single answer. Its being true to your values, which you can only do if you know your values. You also seem concerned about showing too much emotion or being clingy – definitely one should fear that when one is with an MM or person that is attached, since being clingy will make one feel a bit of a fool later. When you’re with someone where the possibility of authenticity exists, then within realistic bounds you should be emotional just as you really are. You should be yourself. [the ‘realistic bounds’ is important since as in Natalie’s post on ‘women who talk too much’, you dont want to be the person so consumed by feelings that they cannot see or note the other person’s reactions and cannot be objective. I dont know for sure how one becomes objective – one way is to check in with yourself often to see how you feel about things, to ask yourself about your values, to check in with trusted others when you feel unsure, to ask and take advice, and to be living a more aware life. Its a slow process.
I think getting a grip and having perspective is important; what is a grip? Depends on what the situation is – in your situation with the man that was cheating on his gf (yes? is that what happily girlfriended means?), get a grip would involve you seeing the relationship exactly for what it was and to get a grip on your emotions and stop dramatizing it as a real relationship where ‘issues’ must be solved for ‘closure’. In fact, you can and did solve those issues – since you’re not seeing him anymore, you could now get closure all by yourself because you dont need someone else’s validation of your feelings.
@Why; what are your values and are you living them? How do you want to be to yourself and others? One cannot be obsessive about these questions, because life is to be lived and for fun and joy, not ceaseless questioning and navel gazing – all in moderation. But when you’re confused and dont know how to go on, then it makes sense to stop and think for a while what you really want, who you want to be, who your friends are, what you want to do with your time on earth.
Hi, Why. I was having difficulty zeroing in on the points I wanted to say to you. Suki and Oona delivered the facts. These men were only with you for the “fun” parts. Trying to talk to them is too much like trying to have a “real” relationship, and they were not there for that. So they stonewall. And give apathetic responses designed to make you feel like YOU are the one with issues. I like the way Suki pointed out: don’t try to be authentic in an inauthentic relationship. And Oona’s point of: If anyone else other than yourself, is controlling/editing your form or ability to communicate your needs – you have no way to connect with them – and fundamentally no relationship…. I saw Oona’s point in action with a former BFF who got married, had issues communicating to the husband, and he REFUSED to read her handwritten letters to him trying to explain her feelings and thoughts. He said (dictated) she should TELL him, not write it down. He was a controlling passive-aggressive insecure bully. Clearly he did not put the relationship first, or he would have read the letters. It was HIS way or the Highway. They divorced after 5 years, but at least she got two beautiful sons out of it.
@Why,
You may think I’m the last person to be rational when it comes to a response, but the irrational responses seem to be specific to my own personal mess.
I agree with Suki in that you canNOT expect an honest conversation with someone who is attached (married, gf, partner). And yes, quite possibly and most likely he ignored what you wanted to talk about because if he told you what you wanted to hear, it would be a lie. If he told you otherwise, it would damage the ‘let’s just not talk about the fact that I have loyalties to someone else’ dynamic. It’s not him being mature, it’s him trying to keep you in your place. You just can’t get an authentic response. Non applicable.
However, with a potentially AVAILABLE partner, the possibility for genuine communication does exist. And I think conversations will naturally deepen over time with the right person. So how do you “distinguish between the healthy and the unhealthy reaction”? Do you mean HIS reaction to your question(s) or YOUR reaction to his response? It’s both right? And sometimes people are NOT truthful, so you just pay attention to your feelings, to words and actions and if it’s good, the relationship progresses with you feeling good and being YOUR true self. If you have fears and doubts are they based on what is happening or what you WORRY might happen? And, as said earlier, sometimes you do and pay attention to all the ‘right’ things and there is no guarantee. I hope you find your happiness.
@Suki, V, Oona, Elgie, Say Something – girls, thank you so MUCH for your thoughtful responses. You’ve shown me new sides to this issue. I am gonna print all of these responses out.
Love BR for this! I never stop learning from all the people here.
I don’t understand the question.
Are you talking about your right to your own feelings and emotions, or how you are expressing how you feel to your boyfriend in an attempt to resolve an issue? Or are you wondering if you have a behavioral problem of some sort?
Oona – I am sorry you have been through so many things in the past year and I know how soul destroying and energy sucking up this is. I can relate a bit because I was involved in a terrible accident just after leaving my home which my ex refused to leave (so I had to). I was in another country and it took many months of rehab to walk properly again and be active in the way I used to. Then a “friend” offered to rent a floor of her old house to me – and then pulled the plug right in the middle of my term. It put me in the hole for a few thousand dollars and added so much stress and heartache. But another example of looking at who is in my real circle of trust.
But I was surprised by the depth of feeling I had when I left my home where I had worked out a garden with many kinds of lavender, lilacs, rock roses and herbs. It took a huge comittment to carve this out of dry dusty soil and it was beautiful. I can’t even imagine the hearbreak you had seeing your trees and plants destroyed by the carelessness of others. had been frozen emotionally seen my marriage ended and with the accident etc but it was my garden that started me crying.
I hope you can be very very self compassionate for the losses you have endured and the extra work you have had to do to manage things and even your doctor and landlord. I know how depleting it is. I have been exhausted for the past year and I think so much of it is a heavy burden of grief.
B- I think that real friends don’t shit on you and make you feel bad. I am in a transition myself where I don’t want people around me who treat me in ways that make me feel less of a person. There ARE people who will love and accept you – it has taken awhile for me to find them but they are there and it makes SO much difference. I have a better early warning signs now…if people make me uneasy or uncomfortable…then I start looking at things. Which doesn’t mean that any relationship doesn’t have rough spots now and then.
I got really really sick of two of my friends doing the “you have spent enough time on your ex – you have to “move on” – this from people who are always bringing up old histories with an ex or their feelings about their brothers and expecting my support and concern. I was married for over 35 years to the same man. There is a lot to process. And I have children who have responded in ways that aren’t always easy to handle in an honest and fair way. I have to almost snicker…considering what I have gone through in the past year -recovering, moving, selling my house, closing up my previous work and losing collegial relationships, starting new ones, moving away from the city I loved, being evicted and finding a new place, going back to school, managing everything by myself – and I mean EVERYTHING and still being a loving friend and mother….um, I guess I have moved on. That doesn’t mean my emotions are all together …not yet. But I refuse to be relentlessly cheerful just to make THEM feel better. Done enough of that…..
Thank you very much for the response suki. I loathe my life right now and moving back in with my parents is not an option. I am trying to keep going. Its happening a lot where i thought for many years, even a decade that someone was my friend. I supported them and now they treat me like a failure. I wish i could just get rid of all these people and start fresh but then id be completely alone
@B; when I felt like this (the social circle was causing anxiety due to ex-EUM); I would go to social events less than 50% of the time I was invited. That allowed me to keep a foot in with the group, while having enough time to myself.
Similarly, I have people that are outside the group, that prefer not to party, and I tend to do one-on-one with them for movies, coffees, brunch etc. The key here is; a lot of things are causing you anxiety. And you are struggling against them instead of letting go. Being alone frightens you. It need not. Once you are quiet in your mind, you create space for the right people. You think nothing can be better because you are thinking from a place of scarcity. Mental health is very important. what you are losing in calmness is a precious thing.
If you want to get out of this rut, start small; read ‘cognitive behavioral therapy for dummies’, read brene brown on imperfections, read those life hacks like 10 ways to be happy everyday. Seriously those help. Meditate, exercise, fix the rest of your life, watch comedies. If leaving these friends is so hard, then start reading these books while keeping everything else the same in your life – these books will help you re-interpret your situation, will help you see that you are often engaging in anger when a simpler explanation might be there for someone’s behavior. It will help you manage things better and allow you to make changes as you feel stronger and calmer.
‘loathe’, ‘failure’, ‘loneliness’, ‘not cool’, ‘inferior’, ‘never worth respecting’, ‘sick of humans’ — I dont know how you feel on average, but these emotions are extreme, and perhaps you are under a lot of stress. The CBT for dummies is specifically about anxiety and depression and I think it helps a lot (it doesnt mean you are a dummy! I like that book, and also if that makes me a dummy thats ok, that book helped me). Its a very very good book.
You need to treat yourself as someone that needs care because you are suffering; reading these books is a form of self-care. Being on BR and reading and thinking and writing a gratitude journal, doing CBT exercises that is taking care of your brain and heart. And its free to practice, just a few bucks for the books. If you’re serious about taking help and taking advice, then buy those books or download some CBT worksheets on the internet.
thank you suki…really good advice..and you’re right..i should not feel being alone. my friends have slowly but surely stopped talking to me and including me in things, so i might as well let it run its course and find new pastures.
a big problem is my family (very abusive and the “mental anxiety” that someone mentioned about having a borderline/narcissitic mother who stalks and harasses you..is something i feel…) but unfortuantely I cannot cut them out of my life right now. i dont live at home but they do send me some money from time to time which has been really important because I only have a part time job.
i graduated from a very good university but finding full time employment has been hard. so it’s just coming from all sides…friends being shitty, my terrible shitty family just..well, being how they usually are and causing me anxiety and making me feel like shit about myself..thankfully i have a really wonderful albeit long distance boyfriend who is everything all my ex bfs have never been for me..but it is still hard…
every day feels like a struggle, but i am still trying trying trying…living in a garage without air con…well, hopefully soon I’ll get that full time job I’ve been wanting..
boyfriend is europe and i’m on the west coast. it’s long distance, but i really hope that i can move back to europe… just escape from this country to a place where you don’t feel disrespected on a daily basis
Thank you all for your encouragement and support. I’ve been reading them each time I feel defeated. I’m taking time to get my balance and think strategically about what I want and need and how to get it. I still haven’t decided whether or not I’m going back on Tuesday. I have a stubborn streak and I am a very determined person and that it is what saved me as a child. Now I’m not sure if I’m hanging there to “show them” or me! 😉 (I did catch myself thinking I’ll show him when trying to solve the problem he set in front of me without all of the information.)
I’m conflicted. It’s clearly toxic and part of me wonders why I’m putting myself through it. Is it really necessary/helpful? Is the best thing for me to just quit? Or, to really help heal these wounds do I need to face it head on and do my best to show myself I can do it? Facing my fears. It certainly has been helpful in revealing of patterns/behaviors from my past.
My boss has been reliant on the person I’m filling in for to be his – everything. She’s his gatekeeper – she fights the battles and he doesn’t have to deal with them. She’s assertive and has power and has earned respect. She learned how to deal with the aggressive bully director and she had the authority to produce what he needed if push came to shove. She was also doing all of the work. She, like me, likes to feel needed. She resents our bosses non-communication, indifference and laziness, but enables it. When she left she told me she wasn’t worried about me and my work skills, she was worried about him. He doesn’t know what he’s doing, but doesn’t seem interested in learning. He fakes it and it was probably working pretty well up until she left.
With “Jill” gone and me in this position, he’s lost his protection from the aggressive director and from his incompetence being revealed. I’ve done my best, but I don’t have the final say and no real power and the aggressor knows that. I did hold my own for which I’m proud of. He had to resort to going over my head and/or sabotage to get his way.
This is a power struggle. I was (now actively working to stay out of it) in the middle of it. My boss is unwilling to stand up to the aggressive director and say no to his bulldozing his last minute requests. My boss wants me to take care of it even though he has taken away my power/authority to do that. He is inconsistent. He got angry with me for attempting to set a boundary on something that he complimented me for doing just last week.
Do as I say not as I do, double bind/no win situation for me. Unrealistic expectations of me and setting me up to fail and blaming and resenting me when I don’t protect/rescue him and he doesn’t do it. He is holding me accountable for something I have no control over – his actions/choices and the bullies actions/choices.
He’s feeling the full weight of his responsibilities now that he’s hasn’t had to face before because Jill always protected him from them. He blows off communication and I think it was overlooked before because they didn’t recognize the incompetence – or it wasn’t affecting mgmt, so they let it go. He is also giving me tasks and not giving me the tools/support I need to complete them. Setting me up to fail/feel frustrated like him. I have to hunt around for it.
There’s also a new HR person who is seeing his incompetence very clearly. She, and I believe upper management, is also seeing that I am doing most of the work and I know things that he doesn’t and I just started. I’m NOT pointing this out to people, it’s obvious when he sends them to me or they get frustrated with him and come to me. I have a key position in the company where a lot of people need what I do, need guidance on what to do. The HR person was asking about my skills in the area he publicly failed at a few weeks ago. Her wheels are turning.
He’s feeling the heat and unfortunately, he’s blaming me. He now feels threatened by me/is blaming me for his incompetence/laziness/indifference/failure to set boundaries/his failures. I’m ‘making him’ look bad.
He has started passive aggressively sabotaging/punishing me, and taking delight in my frustration.
Locking me out of the software so I can’t produce the work he caved in and said we would do by noon (for the bully)
My boss caves in every single time but questions me when he’s not there why they are getting away with it! ??? WTF
His favorite weapons/tools are forgetting/withholding.
He forgets to produce everything one needs, requiring them to be inconvenienced and have to come back to him
Tortures me by setting me up to fail with a task that is impossible to complete without the information he has withheld. Then is very pleased to see I’m frustrated. I tell him I’m missing information. Tells me he’ll go give me what I need, then he doesn’t come back.
I realize now that he’s been setting me up to fail all along and I managed to succeed despite his efforts to sabotage me. When he sometimes seemed delighted by my frustration, I thought he was amused by the way I presented my frustration. I gave him too much credit. Even as I write this I have a hard time believing someone can be that sadistic. But they can and are.
He is getting progressively more hostile as the pressure on him increases.
He’s punishing me and seems to take pleasure in it.
It’s all about him/them. I’m a tool. A means to an end and I’m starting to be more trouble than I’m worth? Or I’m not being perfect enough/compliant enough/enough of a slave. Not sure. Maybe all of them.
My boss is my mother. I’m pretty sure she tried to poison me when I was five. She told the school that someone at the school was poisoning me. She had a new baby and my services were no longer needed and since my father favored me (the bully), and she worshiped my father despite the fact that he physically and emotionally battered us all, including her, I was competition/a threat. She wanted/needed me gone.
I left my boss with the paperwork for the project he didn’t come back to help me with and left for the day.
If I stay, I’ll be nice but keep my distance. I’ll communicate by email, including asking for help – detailing what I’m missing to complete the task.
I’m thinking strategically about a way to leave and not burn the bridge with the company. I never will work for them, but I have a good reputation there and they are very well connected (and respected – go figure) in the community. I’d like to be able to leverage that into a networking opportunity if possible.
If I leave for reasons other than the BS/Toxic workplace, something personal (family emergency/health reasons), then I can potentially leave without burning that bridge. I see this is passive/avoidance, but sometimes that’s exactly what the situation requires!
I’ve attached links to info on this sort of personality.
Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks again everyone who commented, it meant more than you know.
http://www.everydayhealth.com/emotional-health/everyday-sadists-walk-among-us-study-says.aspx
http://thenarcissistinyourlife.com/narcissistic-mothers-get-away-with-their-secret-cruelties/
Veracity I am not surprised to read the key paragraph of your post (…my mother…).
I’ve got to say this: your situation at work is *NOT* A LIFE-THREATENING situation. **NOT**.
You are stressing yourself too much for this, you’re gonna get some physical illness (even only a bad flu) if you keep this up.
Please DETACH. DETACH yourself from the situation, which is pretty uncomfortable but not tragic.
The two alternatives you see in your mind as very black and white have actually much more shades, the world is full of very different people and whatever the decision regarding your job you don’t actually know how much this will affect your future career.
Also, you don’t have to take a decison right now, this is not an emergency situation even though it feels like it right now. Try to play for time, take a few days off work for a fake flu, take a few days of holidays or even not paid rest. The goal is to lower your stress levels, once you do that you’ll be able to see the situation more clearly and take level-headed decisions.
I also suggest that you really make an appointment with a therapist, this is some heavy shit you’re dealing with. I am referring to your family situation, not your job for which, frankly, nobody gives a shit about in reality: people barely remember what they had for breakfast, you can imagine how important a perceived reputation becomes after a few months have passed.
Feel free to do what you want with your job, nothing matters that much in the long-term, but, please, do take care of yourself. V.
@Veracity. I am sorry about the sentence where I say that nobody gives a sh*t about your reputation at your job. I only meant it with respect to the enormity of the problems in your family of origin, but it really came out wrong. I guess I am a bit shocked after all, about what you write that happened to you as a child. I am so so sorry about that. Best wishes for you as always, V.
Veracity,
In the middle of your response you write that you think your mother was poisoning you when you were young and that she blamed the school? And then you skip back to your toxic work environment. What’s going on?
Yes, Say Something, that’s even a better way to put it. What’s going on.
Veracity
He sounds passive-aggressive and that’s one battle that you’re never going to win. My ex husband is passive-aggressive and has been diagnosed (if that’s the right word) as such.
Run for the hills
Veracity, yes, he is passive aggressive for sure. But YOU are the one who gives him power over you. I don’t mean to suggest that I don’t understand that he is your boss. I understand the hierarchy. But psychologically – he is a very small person. His ego is tiny. That is why he is wasting his life playing all those games. Do not waste yours. Do your tasks, tell him when you are missing some info, let other people know about it (with him cc’ed?) if possible and then emotionally detach detach detach (instead of going into the pain that connects him to your mother). I know because I’ve been like this too. Sometimes we have an especially rare circumstance when exEUM triggers me at work but I do this visualisation (and yes, I know it sounds dumb) where I am in a fortress and I draw the bridge and he’s left on the shore with no way to get to me and he’s plotting his tiny games with his stupid harem and their tiny problems and tiny egos. But I AM NOT THERE WITH THEM.
I kinda feel sad for your boss (but not really) because he’s so wrapped up in his little games and fears that he’s most likely unaware of them and how they destroy his life. And on the opposite side of this spectrum – I do not think he is planning those games in advance (otherwise, with that kind of plotting, he’d already be in The Congress). He’s just on autopilot. But you are not! You don’t have to be. You are a much more aware person than he is. You are much better equipped.
You have choices. You have a choice to leave under some personal pretense/reason, you have a choice to see how longer you can try to stay unaffected by him and stay on the job (when does your subcontract run out?). Unlike with your family, you now have the power. You have choices. Maybe they don’t seem like the best of choices right now but you have them. You have our support too! In this respect you are the grown up in this situation. And your boss is a giant baby caged in a man’s body. You are so much bigger than this.
Veracity,
I have PTSD, so I might be projecting here, but from most of your comments I’ve read, (I haven’t read them all), it feels like you are in an episode.
Honestly, I don’t know, it could just be my misinterpretation of your writing, but hypervigilence, obsession, helplessness, and… I’m picking it up from your writing, or I’m remembering when I felt that way; either way, I agree with V, and I’d heed her advice.
I don’t completely understand my own triggers, but I will say when you are in an episode, it all feels so real to you, and some episodes last for months, where you get triggered, and you lose focus, and off you go to war, and then when it’s over, you wonder what really happened.
And, the thing is, it isn’t like there isn’t a legitimate problem. You are legitimately facing a problem, but it is being blown out of proportion by some pretty powerful emotions from the past.
I don’t think anyone who hasn’t experienced this first hand can fully appreciate how difficult it can be to
recognize when you have entered activation, and then pull yourself out of it. But, it can be done.
Take care.
@Moya-Mindful: I agree and understand what you’re talking about. That is exactly what I meant, even though I didn’t write it so explicitly. I am glad to read your very clear explanation and hope that we’ll manage to understand each other better with this exchange. Best, V.
I think you are correct, Moya. I have PTSD and I’m having flashbacks and I don’t feel like I’m handling it very well. I keep getting pulled back in.
Thank you all for your help. I’m sorry if my posts are confusing or troubling. I feel like I get a handle on it and then I get triggered and it’s all I can do to stay in the present and sometimes I’m not able to manage it. I get overwhelmed by the fear/terror.
@Veracity. You are handling it very well, the fact that you get pulled back in is due to the gravity of the facts not your handling. I suggest you get help, but most of all that you get rest so you give yourself the time and resources to process this. It may take a while.
Stop apologising. I am troubled but your posts, but the reason is that I feel for you. And I feel for you because we resonate, we have similar histories. Just some human beings solidarity going on there.
Be well, V.
@Veracity; I too am troubled by your posts. I think you need to see a therapist. I have seen a similar work situation as yours. Although there were triggers (bad boss, being looked over for promotion, pettiness), my friend definitely contributed because she became so bitter, and others pick up on that too. I’m not blaming you for your boss at all – but if you are having a very stressful moment or even as suggested above an episode (PTSD, depression, anxiety) it seems too real and every single such moment from your past (e.g. your mother) gets triggered at the same time. You’re in a flood of emotions that you can’t control, you lose the ability to discriminate the important from the unimportant, and become hyper-alert therefore your interpersonal skills (just ability to get along, fake a smile) takes a total nose-dive. Mean people take advantage of this.
What we’re saying is that in addition to the actual problems with your boss, your anxiety might be triggering some further problems so that some of what you are experiencing will decline if you can find the breathing space to get perspective.
Also, sometimes HR responds better to someone saying ‘oh I’m so stressed with work’ giving no specifics but asking for general help. People prefer to see you as a wilting flower sometimes. Or go to your boss and without naming names or saying anything specific just say you need help with x and y or ask for their advice. Ask for their advice on some project that you dont even need advice on. Have them be invested in you. Dont have them fight your battles. If you show up to HR, serious and ready for battle, they will deny and deflect; if you show up vaguely whiny and hand-wringing about nothing in particular you might get a better response. This requires you to be strategic and you won’t if you feel so persecuted and panicked.
I want to leave you with the thought that this too shall pass. And it will pass quicker if you get some professional therapy help.
@Suki, that’s a very wise advice regarding HR (or anyone replacing HR in a company/group). I did it myself years ago and it does tend to work. If it doesn’t, you don’t lose anything either.
Veracity I don’t know if you’ll get this? I really hope you do – sorry for the delay in posting here, I was looking out for you in the other weekly posts and sad to see you weren’t there.
I repeat from my earlier posts – what was it you wanted to do or first flash thought of doing before all of this blew up, when you first spotted what was going on? What did you deny yourself doing? And now allow yourself to do it.
If you don’t know what it was – you need to start writing a daily journal of your feelings for the next time and don’t give it up until you’ve made it work for yourself. x3 a4 pages a day every day at least for 2 weeks – that no one is ever allowed to see but yourself – write how you genuinely feel even if it is gobbledy gook but do it please – even if you feel like a prized idiot.
You appear to be enmeshed in the situation/details as others have described above and ANY distance will help you gain clarification because this is all about your perception of how safe you are.
Ways of gaining distance include – making yourself aware of your breathing – imagining a clock you breath in as the hand wind down to 6 and out as the hand goes back up to 12 – over and over again until you can feel yourself better. Meditation. Going for a loo break when someone you don’t want to talk to comes to you/starts saying things you experience as not being good or nice. Being off ill… whatever you feel comfortable doing allow yourself to do but make sure you get distance everytime you feel triggered – some people may try to stop you doing these things or situations may be difficult but you need to do it for your own sake.
PTSD is the body making the mind feel physically that it is in danger and if you don’t act – the stress chemicals charge into the body to make it shut down to survive – like the impala deer – PTSD makes stress an actual physical reality.
Getting distance and becoming less enmeshed, will take some practice but after a while you will start seeing a difference and you will become less hyper sensitive to everything – less reactive and more responsive to your real needs.
I am so sorry to read that this is happening to you – well done for linking this situation to an utterly shocking devastating past experience – no wonder! – this is what needs to be unraveled for you in a safe environment for you – in the way that you need – like your life depends on it – this is the reason or one of the big reasons for the cycle you are currently in. It will mess with your senses chemically and physically until you can get a handle on it – either making it impossible to trust the people you should trust or not trust the people you shouldn’t etc…
My recovery has involved focusing always on what is actually happening now rather than the past/focusing on my physical instincts first – ie breathing, thirst, food, heat, cold etc… – and naturally I have been able to find links to the past and the cycles, safely through doing this as I’ve built up confidence that I can trust what is going on and the information I am giving and receiving.
Thank you, Oona. I’m just now seeing this. You have been an amazing support in this. I will use all of the tips you suggested to continue processing this and for future triggers.
Wish I could hug you. I hope that you find this note and that you are well.
The only control we have over change is how we handle it.
Hello everyone! It’s been a few months since I last posted on BR. I have been quietly lurking in the background though. Hope that doesn’t sound creepy lol. First let me say to Natalie…Thank you! You have no idea how much BR has meant to me over the last few months. I am still working on myself but I just want you to know how much you have helped me! xx
I have been NC with the ex EUM/AC for over 4 months and I can happily say that there has been no slip ups from me. Nor has he reached out to me. Thankfully. Not that he would. He has Narc tendencies and sees my NC as a slight against him. The poor dear (NOT). I first shared my story on “Did they just do a Uturn?” (https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/did-they-just-do-a-u-turn-overestimating-level-of-interest-or-capacity-for-commitment/) I’ll try not to rehash my whole story. I can talk a lot sometimes.
I have grown a lot since I last posted on here. I have been treating myself with love, care, trust and respect. I have also acknowledged how I was EU myself when I was in the ‘relationship’. I still have things to work on but I am feeling happier about myself and my life. I also acknowledge that I painted this guy as the BGE and had him on a pretty little pedestal. That has since come crashing down. I avoided a lot of red flags and chose to make excuses for him. I thought I could fix him and make him ‘better’. So stupid and naïve. Of the 40 things that Natalie listed on How to spot an EUM, he hit 22 of them. I was sadly part of his harem during and after he ended things.
Lately though I feel like I am backsliding. Ruminating as well. The EUM/AC has been with his new little girlfriend (victim) for 6 months now. They have a LD relationship, which they see each other on the weekends. Mostly once a week. (They got together a month after he ended things with me) An EUM’s dream relationship. Our ‘relationship’ of over a year was kept a secret from his family and friends. With her it is a different story. She has met his family and some friends and vice versa (I found this stuff out BEFORE I unfriended him on facebook). Anyway, this is the stuff that has been bothering me as of late. It doesn’t make any sense. I sit here sometimes and find myself doubting everything I know to be true about him. Like…”Maybe he wasn’t really EU.” and “Oh maybe he was just EU with me.” I even have a friend that has said that to me even though EVERYTHING I have read on BR and other articles have said that that isn’t possible. I do know that I am probably trying to make sense out of nonsense, as Nat always says. And I DO know that it’s not about me…it’s about HIM. It’s just lately I sometimes get so angry and confused when I think about the ex and his new relationship. Why does he seem to suddenly be so different with her, i.e. making an effort, introducing her to family, etc…
I don’t want to think about him anymore or his new relationship. It’s annoying. I even dream about it lately. I know everyone heals at their own pace but I just wish I could wake up tomorrow and just not give a sh*t about that anymore. I let myself feel the pain for months and for a while I thought I had a turning point. Clearly I was wrong.
Anyway, I would love some thoughts and advice about all of this. Don’t hold back either. I probably need some harsh replies. I respect you and admire you all. Your comments and stories help so many of us. Big hugs to you all! xx
Cinders,
I think it is great that you have become so much more self aware and are working on loving yourself healthily. Please don’t forget that it takes time and it is not something you either “get” one day and then have arrived at the perfect place.
To me it sounds like that you have taken on a lot of self-improvemnt projects and are eager to finish and prove that to yourself?! SLOW down and accept that life and events and how you deal with them has it’s own timing. You can educate yourself so much and understand so much but you have to LIVE it and also fail a little again and then try again, apply etc. Moving towards a place of healthy self-love is not a science and also highly personal experience…I think you are doing great, give yourself some credit, love yourself, really I mean, with flaws and slip-ups and understand why. It is COMPLETELY normal to doubt some decisions, but try not to doubt your observations (that he may not been EU…etc.) because then you are overriding your gut. See the truth and his behavior in accordance and then the veil will lift. Also 4 month is not that long. It took me at least a year to not obsess every day about the EU/AC…but again everyone’s situation is different!! I really think you are too harsh on yourself and it is really good and healthy to acknowledge your thoughts and doubts, no need to act on them though!! Meditation helped me a great deal and strengthening my close circle of friends, picked up a new hobby…it is just so important that you do these things because you really want to and love to spend your time like that as opposed to proving to yourself that you have moved on. Try to resist checking up on him, and if he comes to mind, think of what you disliked the most in him and his behavior ( I even had a horrible but true nickname for mine as he beat his dog) and you can shake that urge off very quickly…because you don’t want to have anything to do with someone who treats you like a crap or in my case beats his dog!!! You can chose your thoughts- not always the emotions, so if you want to control something, it is your thought!! Just keep posting, we are all here…
Hugs
Hi Cinders… I can certainly understand why it may seem like he’s “so different”… it can *appear* that way but you’ve seen what he’s like. Trust your own gut over the story he’s trying to tell about himself. Trust yourself/your observations/his behavior more than what he *says*/*performs* for the world.
Also, I can relate to your decision to unfriend him on FB: In my case, I took a long look at what I was unfriending and I learned a lot – I got to really see that yes indeed, this is who he is – and it reinforced my decision to unfriend. I think part of the power of NC is not getting *any* information – they’re neither an audience to our lives nor us to theirs – and this is the healthy way forward. I think you HAVE grown and moved on in many ways – it’s that getting the info via FB before you unfriended him is messing with your head a little. As you go forward *without* being witness to his life (and putting your own fears on top of what you see to “interpret” it), I imagine the calm will return and your progress will continue. Just my 2 cents and hang in there… we’re all rooting for you.
@ Cinders; i just learnt that the ex-EUM has a new person. It was both a trigger of my anxieties but also a relief. The thing is that I dont want him, I dont like him, I dont contact him, I fake friendliness when I see him while avoiding spending any time with him. I think he knows that but no one else does and he probably isn’t sure either and / or appreciates my fakeness. He knows what he did.
So. I realize also that the triggering is more my own loneliness than missing him (ok I didn’t realize this someone told me!!). Its knowing that he’s flitting from girl to girl while I’m still alone because frankly this is what I want. I dont want to flit from man to man. So here we are.
Let yourself think about him. Sometimes its hard to stop those thoughts. As long as you do NOT contact him. Simple. I have obsessed for a few days. I’m feeling a lot better. I needed to obsess to figure it out.
I would suggest though that you start trying to have different perspectives. Take your post here > rethink it. You call that girl his victim, I understand but at the same time there is a sense of bitterness there. “But I wanted to be the victim! Now she gets to cry?” You aren’t over that feeling yet. Thats okay, but its important to acknowledge that.
He probably is still very EU etc. Maybe he was only EU with you – and you know why? That could be because you challenged him, called him out for his b.s.
But also; I was reading an interesting article about how some men feel entitled to women’s attention. They cannot believe that a woman is not interested in them. That should apply to women as well. So – its important to assume that you cannot get along with everyone. That even the most respectful relationship can end for all sorts of reasons that are nothing to do with one person being a bleeping bleep bleep.
So you have these options; 1) he’s EU, he’s always going to be EU, 2) I made him EU because I dont put up with b.s., 3) we dont get along because hey maybe we’re not that great together, and finally the one our hearts unfortunately lead us to — 4) he’s EU because I’M BROKEN! I BROKE HIM with my brokenness 🙂
I think this last one is hilarious which is why I put a smiley face. Its hilarious in a black humor way.
Also note, whether he’s EU or not is irrelevant – how he treated you is almost irrelevant. You dont like him!!! So who cares who he’s seeing now! If it helps you I will add; get a grip!! But mostly go easy on yourself; just do not under any circumstances contact him.
[fyi: that esteemology article someone posted below is good and read the comments on that article too.]
[and that friend of yours doesnt know what they’re talking about]
@Unfolding; Thank you so much for your advice. I have been keeping myself busy with several hobbies that I gave up when I was involved with the EU/AC. I have also given him a name just like you have with your ex. The name I chose is rather colorful though lol. Hugs!
@Michelle; You are spot on. I do need to trust what I already know about him. And the reasons you unfriended your ex on FB were mine as well. They are who they are. Thank you for your advice and encouragement!
@Suki; Thank you for your response. I’ve read it several times now and you are right about some things. I have tried taking different perspectives. I have reread my own posting several times as well. But I am still frustrated about some of what I mentioned.
I can honestly say that I do not envy his new girlfriend. I called her his ‘victim’ because I truly believe that he is still the same EU/AC. I don’t see how he could change that about himself in the span of a month. He ended things with me in mid November (told me he didn’t want a girlfriend…wanted to sort himself out first), went on a dating site online, by January they were chatting, and started dating at the end of January. He’s like your ex as well. Always flitting from one girl to the next. He was EU before we met and he is still EU. I have never thought that I made him that way. I do think that one of the reasons he ended things with me is because I did try and talk to him about things. About how I felt or how he made me feel sometimes. He also HATED questions. Any kind. Like when he would tell me he went out the previous night I would casually ask him what he did. He always got annoyed by it. Said his parents always ask him that (at the time he was still living with his parents…don’t know if he still does) and he HATED it.
One of the biggest thing that bothers me/confuses me is the fact that he has been so different with her as far as: making an effort every weekend to meet up for dinner, bike riding, day trips, etc; introducing her to family & friends and vice versa. He didn’t do that with the any girl before me. (He DID have a girlfriend for 5 years that he was briefly engaged to but told me they broke up because she cheated on him. His One time at band camp story). That’s why my friend told me that she thinks he was only EU with me and now has met ‘the one’ and is some amazing boyfriend with the new girl. Any thoughts on this from anyone?
I realize it’s probably stupid and pointless to want thoughts/answers about that because he is no longer in my life but it honestly would help me right now.
I think you need to ditch that friend. Or at least not listen to her because she is saying the wrong things to you – and she doesnt know their relationship any better than you do. Ok. The point is I dont even hear from you that you like him. Hitler had a girlfriend too – so what? There are millions of people in this world that have significant others, that are married, and some of them are even happy at it – why are you obsessing over this one? Since he has what so many others have – he’s not taking anything from you, he’s just living out his fate.
You’ll have to talk yourself out of it slowly. Some of your questions is your loneliness and hurt talking. As long as you dont contact him its all ok. These are the pains of finally getting away from him. This would have happened eventually and its good you’re getting it out of your system.
Also horse-riding does not mean emotionally available. Getting married doesnt mean available. So — he’s probably still EU. And either way, he was not the one for you.
No worries about the friend. I told her she wasn’t being a good friend by saying those kinds of things to me. Plus I told her that just because someone is in a relationship, it doesn’t make them available. I personally don’t believe that a new relationship can transform an EUP. It takes lots of work and reflection. The ex didn’t do that before getting into this new relationship. And as Natalie and others say, they have to change for themselves. Otherwise the change will be short lived.
You’re right about me not liking him anymore. No feelings left for him. Just still hurt and angry over everything he did and said to me. I don’t wish I was his new girlfriend. I don’t envy her. I actually feel sorry for her because she still, after 6 months of seeing him mostly once a week, has no idea who he really is. They haven’t been around one another long enough to unfold. Plus she is EU herself like I was.
He’s a very broken person. Very selfish. Cold at times. Used to belittle me and mock how I would pronounce words (I’m American, he’s British). He would even try and correct me on things I would say. Sorry for rambling. It just helps sometimes to remind myself how he treated me. I don’t miss the real him. Just the guy I thought he was. He is no great catch. Not a prince.
Today has been a rough day though. Even though I deleted him from facebook over 4 months ago, I still had him as a contact on Whatsapp and Skype. Even though I knew I’d never speak to him again, nor had any urge to…I deleted him within the past hour. I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t crying as I type this. I haven’t cried about him in quite a while.
Here’s the thing.
Guy at new job. Nice, gives off right vibes, except that he’s chary about his current status and does not share personal info.
Discovered today: has ex girlfriend still on scene.
Episode of PTSD, followed by – what? relief? I hope so. Not-Over-Ex is nothing but trouble.
No one died. First tentative attempt to stick toe back in water. No one died.
Still unready.
Hi E.t.U.,
I have found that healthy people don’t give much initial “vibes” off in general. It is more the dramatic ones that “give” vibes ( because they are all about impressing and their image).
Healthy people only take a passing interest initially and some you have to prompt a little since they are unassuming especially when they are serious about their work.
But then they reciprocate if they are interested (or not if they are not) It usually makes sense as opposed to the EU’s where you usually scratch your head with deciphering messages etc. But that is just my experience.
So do not even stick your toe back in regarding dating? GET TO KNOW people in general, no romantic interest. My friends were my “secret” guinea pigs as I kept exploring what type of relationships I have…it helped me a great deal and meeting someone with an Ex hanging around (how boring…) I hope you won’t get PTSD from that next time, just a shoulder shrug…and moving on. If you had such a strong reaction he might have given you strong “vibes” of possibilities which is such an AC move to begin with or you simply overreacted. Either way, this guy is not even worth the steam of your pee as I read on here sometime ago :))
Keep on observing and get smart about peoples behavior,
Good Luck
I have found that healthy people don’t give much initial “vibes” off in general. It is more the dramatic ones that “give” vibes ( because they are all about impressing and their image).
^^^^ THIS +100 ^^^^
If you had such a strong reaction he might have given you strong “vibes” of possibilities which is such an AC move to begin with or you simply overreacted.
He has been definitely vibeing possibilities, and yes, it is a very AC move to begin with. My gut began sending alarm signals almost straight away, and I heard them and heeded them, which has helped keep my head straight.
So my AC detector seems to be working better than it used to.
It’s also been good to watch my feelings unfold, and honour them rather than repress them. They’ve gone now, and they have much less chance of coming back because I gave them their 15 minutes of air time that they clearly needed.
My usual principle is to get to know people as friends, and yes, that’s easily the safest option. But this guy has been going too far, and I sense that I am on the B List in case an A List situation is not working out. I am not that woman.
Last night I took my funny little not-exactly-nuclear (post-nuclear?) family out to dinner. I have so much to be grateful for, and I am so grateful that they are there for me.
I have also now gone back and re-read Natalie’s earlier post about people who aren’t over their ex, and how it’s Not About Me.
This was a HUGE help.
It’s here: https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/when-theyre-not-over-their-ex-a-lesson-in-empathy/
I am now on the way to feeling happier and prouder that I held it together, and didn’t do the Pick Me Dance, and can step back and leave this guy to get on with his own dramas and not involve me. I am grateful I found out when I did.
But I am also looking forward to my counselling session tomorrow …
I have spent more time thinking about this crazy man than I have actually spent time being with him. For. the. last. five. years. What a waste of my emotional mind. Every single time…even now that I have distanced myself but still get the occasional text or email…I question my bad thoughts of him. “Oh look…he really does care. What a nice text asking if I’m doing okay.” And every single time, I get burnt. So yes, I do betray myself. Five years….I think it’s time I quit obsessing and get my life back. I will still never understand how such a selfish evil man can so easily dominate all the women he touches.
rewind,
For that reason I will change my phone number. I already changed my e-mail address. I don’t want to hear from him, “I hope you are doing OK.” In a month or a year or 5 years. I haven’t heard from him in 10 months. Last time he contacted I asked, why are you contacting me and whether you have something to say? No response after that.
I am still healing and grieving. Therefore, I don’t need the “friendly” checkups on me. And at this point I don’t want to know if he does not contact me at all. I am not at the stage yet where I am indifferent to all that happened. I am working on moving on and forgiving him and myself without him acknowledging guilt, remorse. I know that will never happen, for one, because he doesn’t think he did anything wrong, and secondly, even if he did feel that way, he is so proud and full of himself, so he would never admit it.
Most importantly though, what I want to do is to forgive him and me independently of him. That’s my goal. I am getting there. Step by step. So the best protection tool for me is changing the phone number. If there is really something important to say, he can find me.
I recommend that you change your phone number and e-mail address. I know it’s a hassle. I had to update so many accounts (like logins with different websites for bills, shopping, etc), but it is worth it. I am in peace now that I will never hear from him in an e-mail. I too know if I hear from him the pain will come back surging like a hurricane, a huge wave covering me in tears, pain, and destruction, all over the cycle again. I don’t want it. I am not there yet. I need more time. And to help myself I choose to protect myself with a new phone number.
For you: 5 years is too long to tolerate that popping-up. I don’t know how you can handle that… Best way is NC 100%. And then, like I said, if one really really has to say something, one can find you. We live in a digital, all in open world. People can be found one way or another. Protect yourself and enjoy the peace.
Sofia,
We have had hundreds of “communication” attempts similar to the one you describe. It always ended the same. He either does not answer when I ask him the way you did (“I asked, why are you contacting me and whether you have something to say?”) or more often it went like that:
(him)- I hope you are okay.
(me) – I am. Please stop contacting me.
(him) – Why do you have to be such a negative person?
In essence, this dynamic describes every communication we ever had. Bleh.
Bleh indeed. That’s why I want to stop even a possibility of such engagement in the future. It hurts, it stops the moving on process, it messes with the healing, it’s an unnecessary distraction, and even a bit of drama if the healing is not completed yet. We don’t need that. And if we don’t respond, we (people pleasing naturally we are although working on it), will worry they will think we are negative and childish? Why even bother. Out of phone screen, out of mind!
Is the “why are you contacting me?” just in case his answer might be “I miss you, I was wrong, I’ll spend my life making it up to you…” ???
Why isn’t it:
a. (silence/ no response which keeps NC on your part)
b. I have nothing to say. You opted out.
Just curious because responding at all is breaking NC.
Say Something, Yes! Back then, 10-11 months ago, I broke my NC by replying to him. I was not ready yet. If he were to contact me now I would not reply.
Exactly. I was expecting either, ” I am sorry for all the pain you experienced” or “I miss you.” My lesson learned. NEVER NEVER REPLY. It took several months after to just recover from his silence. I thought he would say something!!! Just disappeared.
NC means 100% NC. No replying. No checking FB. Nothing. Treating him like the person is dead. I am ready now.
It is, rewind. It is.
Welcome to the first day of your new life!
Get counselling. I can’t say this enough. You can do a lot in your own head and online, but nothing beats a paid, face-to-face, objective human being who can listen and be honest with you, and teach you hacks and short-cuts to getting yourself back.
Hi Rewind,
I am sorry you are having such a tough time. You said that you have spent five years consumed with thinking about this man. Does this mean you haven’t found any PEACE or happiness? I can only imagine the impact this has had on your life over a five year period. I am just curious how much time is occupied with thinking about him? Do you have any activities you can be involved with that take your mind off of him?
I think he sounds evil to still be texting you after all this time without a relationship. Do you think he does this to maintain some control over you? Is this why you are spending your energy thinking about him? You have called him evil. So that you can move forward at some point you should consider not responding to him. Your own healing is more important.
I am not familiar with your story. If you don’t mind me asking what sort of support have you had? I hope you find peace and happiness.
MJ
Closer to the subject of this post:
The pain is the pre-cursor to growth and renewal, which never stop, unless we stop them. It is one turning point after another. And the interesting thing is that this turning of pages in our book of growth starts when we hit the bottom and reach the epiphany. After a major event in our lives, that’s when we start noticing that the new challenges and pains are not only frustrations and difficulties of life, but are also indispensable catalysts for our renewal. It is a fluid, evolving process, but once the wheel starts turning (the most painful event and epiphany), there is no stopping. It doesn’t mean it gets easier, but it does help us grow and learn about ourselves much more every time. If previously, the pains were perceived with annoyance and negativity, they are now worked through, evaluated against our own personality and behavior, mentally “filed,” so to speak, and marked (like a mark on the door to keep track of a child’s height), to see us growing. Some big pains are really blessings in disguise.
Sofia, I totally agree. I also think that the epiphany helped my relationship metabolism: I work past those challenges faster now, my evaluation mechanism is more aware and works faster too. In short, it takes me less time to move on.
@rewind Yes it’s time to let go. Don’t think I know your story,but yes it’s time to just say a lovely “F*** this s*** !” and just walk away 🙂 obviously there will be texts or emails, I kinda stopped getting his after I said in mails and texts on harsh tone: delete my contacts, I don’t respect or like you enough to stay friends with you,,I don’t care what you do what you feel, you certainly didn’t care about me but you just wanna give yourself an ego stroke and keep me in your group of yes sayers of friends of exes. But I know who you are now in real life and I don’t want any contact with you. I don’t think you are an ahole, I KNOW you are one and always have been. Good bye and delete all my info I don’t know you.
Yes a bit harsh and a bit …wanting to say what I wanted to say, but strangely enough after my eurika moment I actually began to hate his contacting me with sugary words, trying to see if I’m over my anger so that we could be friends and thus join his harem of exes who still think he’s a good guy or still stay in touch for some reasons. And you know what I don’t intend to although I know he wil have made me look bitter and angry in the eyes of his then-girl-in-waiting, to his friends family etc. But it’s good for me to get my s@@@ together and learn not to Always draw my self esteem from external factors and especially other people’s opinion of me. Still do it…but I really try hard to talk to myself and get better. This site also has been an eye opener… Seriously! What a massive help this has been. I also know how this was in fact my fault for having allowed myself to think I really deserved that treatment. And that he’s the one and only suitable man on earth, when he’s a boy at forty. And I am only just growing up myself. But at least I’m proud for never allowing myself to stoop as low as he had. I really have lost all respect for him and struggle some days to get my self esteem back as it’s been so long since I’ve felt in touch with myself…. 🙁 but I’ve not given up yet, just because I mess up some days and remember wanting to punch him if I see him, does not mean I will. 🙂 I’m trying to train myself to act out what I feel. Which is starting to be nothing… Love for him stopped two months and a half into crying,when I had the eye opening experience of the co dependent and the narc who’s also a peter pan. So now I’m just trying to get myself back…also because I was so lost my whole life so basically, so much that sometimes I don’t remember who I am and what I think ..if that makes sense. Now I am also laughing a bit at my own story and it feels good to take that route and normalize something that has been in essence quite serious at the time and still is in the sense that..well it happened to me with me allowing it and it has changed everything. Like an awakening. So I don’t know…all this talk to make a small point – can you look at your situation and ask the clear question – have I lost respect for this man? I found it very important to verbalize that – it made me realise I just didn’t really like the way he treated me and once you lose respect I find recovery very very quick and mind very clear. Am I making any sense?
Also, does anyone else start to joke a bit about how oh my I cried so much ‘ don’t forget our love!I love you so much” and sort of…ridicule yourselves? I like to do it sometimes as it really reminds me how bad we often take some things as world ending as if those men or better half men were the only ones who could ever sort of love us in their selfish way and with our silly submission /permissions. What a load of rubbish, … And how warped our views of them, us, and the world…
Ro, very good point! Moving on from them also happens when we loose respect for them. It’s important to distinguish between hate/anger and loss of respect. The former can lead to being stuck in the anger phase. The latter marks that you are on the way out of the stuck phase and moving on. I have noticed the glimpses of more realistic, “Wow, I don’t really respect that man .” And it’s not the bitterness or hate speaking. It’s finally looking at the situation with open eyes, having been grown some myself, and starting to see him for who he was. Yes, and during these times, when I feel I don’t respect him, that’s WHEN I feel I am truly moving on. And this can’t be pushed. This feeling and depends what he did in the relationship, will come gradually. It is liberating and truthful. Once you don’t respect someone, you can’t pine for him. You lost all the feelings and want to stay away. Calmly and neutrally. Thank you, Ro.
Ro and Sofia… YES to the issue of losing respect for a EUM. It seems like an integral step to moving on.
The other day, it hit me: “Because he KNOWS he’s not good enough for me, he ACTS like he’s not good enough for me.” Aha. There we go. And I knew it too, didn’t I? Yep.
Perfect example: not talking about my job around him. I remember him asking me how I got my job. I thought it was such a funny question – I worked my ass off, got a doctorate and now I run my own program and get to travel around and go to the White House and stuff… What do you mean, “How did I do it?” It wasn’t dumb luck, dude!
I remember him commenting that his job was so meaningless compared to mine. Instead of recognizing this for what it was, I ended up pumping up what he does, pointing out why it’s important – and failing to register that he *himself* doesn’t think his job is worthwhile and what does that tell me about him and the value he places on his own time/energy/intelligence? I avoided thinking about that because that would have meant acknowledging a red flag that we were not as values compatible as I wanted us to be. Instead, I tried to convince him that his job *was* important – so that he’d be more like me: proud of what he does. Sadly, my attempts to lift him up to my level were futile but *of course* they were – this was a red flag, not a signal to work harder to “make us compatible.” He was basically telling me, “I’m not like you. I’m not willing to put in the work or effort that you are – in any area of my life…” but all I thought was, “Oh hush, darling – sure you are. I won’t bother you with the details of my job so you don’t have to feel bad about yourself.” I started to worry that I was feeling superior to him (because I was), so I didn’t discuss my job to avoid seeming like I was “bragging.” I suppose he felt “I’m not good enough for you so let’s avoid talking about all the ways you bypass me in terms of effort, passion, dedication, contribution, achievement…” and, for awhile, I complied with these terms, telling myself I didn’t need his validation. I don’t. But I was making myself small to accommodate his ego. I wasn’t talking about my life or my passions or my projects – so his problems took center stage every time… and so I was invited to play the role of armchair therapist instead of peer partner…
The EUM has had his job for years, he’s bored and unchallenged but he’s not taking steps to change that – and *that’s* what I don’t respect. *That’s* what is out of alignment with my values. Not that he makes less or has a less prestigious/impactful job or isn’t a doctor, etc. – it’s that he *knows* he could work harder (and be happier) and he’s simply unwilling to make an effort to change his situation to make happiness/fulfillment happen, in *whatever* way that would work for him.
For him, everything is someone else’s fault, some person hurt him, they were bad, etc. I’ve had awful people hurt me too – it doesn’t ruin my life. I’m still in charge and I don’t let those people back in to stab me again. He would allow them to remain – as if they were going to miraculously change and start treating him well. And that’s how he stays stuck, new complaints about so-and-so and what they did “this time.” I am fairly certain he has complaints about me and whines to someone about why won’t I put up with whatever thing he feels entitled to hang on me. Whatever. I can’t even imagine what he blames me for now that I’m out of the picture.
He had this thing about “not getting his hopes up” – to avoid disappointment later, of course. The problem with that is, he doesn’t “get his hopes up,” so he doesn’t bother trying… and the thing he fears most comes true. People drift away, they leave, because they tried but you let them down, dude… Self-fulfilling prophecy! And now he gets to think to himself, “See, I was right – I let people down/disappoint them. I’m not good enough.” The truth is, if he let himself feel, if he let himself want things (if he could figure out what that was), he might put in some effort and be successful. It’s a shame. But that’s his issue to resolve, not mine.
And yes, TOTALLY: when you *lose respect* for them, all the magic dissolves and they just seem pathetic to you. You move on.
I always come back to this site in the event of a fallout. And it never fails to help me put things in perspective.
Last night I just ended one of those start-quickly-fade-fast relationships. Dating for a month. My head is still spinning from the complete flip of it. It hurts because it was one of those guys you get excited about. As in this guy has what I want. I feel like the wind has been knocked out of my sails again. I was trying and forging something too quickly, and compromising me in the process.
I asked him why he wasn’t putting in a lot of effort. And he said you’re right, I don’t know why I’m not trying I should be doing nice things for you, you’re everything I could want in a relationship – lots of compliments – but I don’t know why I’m not trying. And he said he lost the spark. What the hell does that even mean?! That one stings. I want to chalk it up to emotionally unavailable, bad timing – but crap. This one felt different. Why does this seem to be the case with more men than not. I know I’m missing something and I got too excited too quickly, but it sucks because I feel like I set myself up even armed with all I know. I can’t make him see I’m a catch, and from what he says I think he gets that. I don’t know, just another learning lesson.
Hd Moving On… some people think “love” is that spark. They like the chase and once it feels like they “won,” the feeling is over for them. For them, pursuing people is just that – pursuit. They’re aiming for a fast ego payoff instead of investment in a person, investment in a relationship. This is why he knows he should be doing these things but only knows how to “give compliments.” When the goal is quick ego payoff, the effort is similar: words spoken in the moment with no real actions to back it up. Because the real goal isn’t long term, it’s to feel good now. It sounds like he doesn’t even understand why he does it but that would be my guess, based on what you’ve said. It is a bummer but they are saving us so much time/energy/pain by showing us what they’re about sooner rather than later. A person can have all kinds of great qualities but still not be relationship-oriented. It’s OK – it just means you’re ready and they’re not. Better to know now!
I love that line: A person can have all kinds of great qualities but still not be relationship-oriented. And I do believe that to be true. But the lies, late phone calls, multiple women, etc. tarnish even that statement because it also diminishes their great qualities.
@rewind… Precisely. With time, the whole picture comes into view and we embrace our values fully… And they look distorted and out of place in our lives. They don’t fit. Their once spotless finish looks pretty dull upon closer inspection.
This cycle of pain and reassessing oneself and getting back to the core values and morals that established who you were to begin with and what molded you into who you are, is ever repeating. And becomes more difficult when drug and alcohol abuse enters your life and sabotages you and your loved ones. The key thing that you hit on here and is absolutely true is stick to what you know and who are you. Trust yourself. I’m not saying lose faith in others, but never doubt yourself because at the end of the day…yes, you have family and friends who have your back and those people are few and far between- keep them close, but also, YOU are the only one looking out for you. Thank you for your inspiring words, and keep fighting the good fight (I surely will).
Hi all this is my first time commenting here.
I love the blogs and they have certainly been insightful helping me understand why things happen and not to get all upset over unavailable men. Sometimes it isn’t about us, it is about them…just leave them be to sort their issues out on their own, don’t let anyone’s problems become yours.
Over the past 18 months since I have been on my own. My ex husband was constantly on dating sites chasing other women. That had a profound effect on my confidence and self esteem and the next 2 lessons came my way. 🙂 I can laugh about it now at my own stupidity but I think that is a good thing as it shows i’m over it and am on the road to learning my lessons.
I have dated a couple of men both were/are players and big ass clowns. The last one was given the big ole heave ho from me. Why? because I can see the red flags I previously would have ignored and carried on.
The first player, I got hurt but I blame myself for that I ignored the massive red flags waving in my face and dismissed my gut instinct screaming at me. He told me he didn’t want a relationship after talking complete and utter rubbish to me for 4 months, treated me disrespectfully, pressured me into sex, maybe waiting 5 weeks was to long for some but I thought it was reasonable to wait. He was happy to use me up for ‘friends with benefits’ on the grounds none of us slept with anyone else and we were booked up in a hotel for new year 2014 for a few days and celebrate the new year together as friends with benefits. It all ended when I aired my grievances in a not so lady like manner to which he didn’t appreciate. Needless to say I didn’t go away for new year. I just wasn’t allowing that anymore, I never heard from him again. Go figure.
The 2nd one was a selfish, irresponsible, freeloading, future faking, emotionally unavailable ass with more baggage than Heathrow Airport! I wasn’t emotionally invested and I quickly saw the red flags and his pity party and quickly fled. He has tried to weedle his way back in with his usual sweet talking but I just ignore him.
You got to love yourself before anyone else can love you, treat yourself with love and respect and the rest will follow. I know my worth and I refuse to settle just for the sake of it. I am now happy on my own and due to start a nursing degree in September funnily enough though, the first ‘ass clown’ one of his close friends is starting the same time as me and recently bumped into an old childhood friend and turns out she and the close friend of ass clown are cousins and in his circle, considering they live 30 -40 miles away from me. Something’s you just can’t shake out of your life completely.