I know from personal experience that one can get blinded in the pursuit of trying to get somebody to do the right thing, the ‘right thing’ being the opposite of whatever they’re currently being and doing.
Trying to get somebody to ‘do the right thing’ becomes our blind spot because we put doing the right thing by us on pause or just chuck it out the window.
Our notion of the ‘right thing’ also blinds us as it might differ entirely from their idea of the right thing. We may see a little or a lot wrong with their actions, but they might not.
Admittedly, our idea of the right thing may be based on them doing what we believe is right for us, which may conflict with what they think is right for them.
They may know that what they’ve done isn’t ‘right’ per se, but at the same time, they may not believe that ‘repayment’ should take the form that you desire.
Sometimes, the ‘right thing’ is the right thing, full stop. And other times, it’s subjective.
It seems like the right thing to us, but if we were to get it, it might be wrong. Persisting in pursuing our view of things closes our eyes to the bigger picture, including why our version of things isn’t happening.
Often, we believe it’s right because it’s the picture we have in our heads. It’s how we see things unfolding and working out. And even if some of our expectations are based on what another person promised and claimed to intend, ultimately, we may feel that they owe us the correct version of events because we don’t want to accept the truth of the situation and the disappointment that comes with it.
Sometimes the right thing isn’t right, but we don’t and may not know that until much further down the line when we look back and think, Jaysus! I dodged a bullet on that one!
I remember thinking that the right thing for my ex to do was to leave his girlfriend. In my mind, I’d been and done so many things to please him and secure his love that the least he could have done was break it off with her. It burned me that my considerable efforts to please him in the form of having the affair on his terms and being willing to emotionally bankrupt myself in the process weren’t enough. He would not do the right thing. Even the whole, ‘I’m seriously ill’ wasn’t a trigger.
The things that piss you off in others shine a light on where you may be guilty of the same thing.
I wanted him to do the right thing because I avoided stepping up for myself and away from him. I wanted to be ‘right’ instead of admitting I’d misjudged the situation. In the end, it was me who had to be brave. At one point, I’d thought we’d be brave together, but he would have left me hanging. It’d be like planning to dive out of a plane together and him insisting that, of course, he’d be right there with me, only for me to look around and find myself alone.
I used to do the whole ‘After everything I’ve done for you…’ and yada yada yada, and the thing is, I see it now with the benefit of hindsight. I felt as if everything I did was a show of faith and a contribution to our affair investment fund. He just thought it was who I was. I felt he owed me what I’d believed it was all leading to. I mean, what the frick did he think I was doing it for? To entertain him like some pop-up entertainment centre with an armchair psychologist, ego stroking, and sex kitten button, and all just for kicks?
I recognise now that the logical thing to do when you’re cheating is to leave or stop and sort your relationship out, but that I was not entitled to him leaving.
It wasn’t the ‘right thing’; it was just what I wanted. There is a difference. Sometimes, we mix the two up when we let our feelings and, yes, our egos dictate our outlook. It was far from crazy to expect him to leave, not least because he was the one to say that he would, plus he would not leave me alone. But my willingness to have an affair doesn’t entitle me to a straight exchange of him leaving. I wanted the wrong thing to be made right, and I did it when I left and stayed left.
Sometimes, the way that we see the problem is the problem in that we’re insisting that something is right for us when it hurts like hell, and it takes us in the opposite direction of treating ourselves with love, care, trust, and respect. We doggedly pursue this rightness even though it’s engaging insanity — repeatedly doing the same things, expecting different results, being surprised when we don’t get them, and persisting again.
We can’t make others ‘do the right thing’, especially when they’re resistant to it, but if we know what the right thing is, the best thing we can do is be brave enough to embody it in our lives. Don’t let the pursuit of trying to get somebody to do the right thing blind you to doing the right thing by yourself.
Your thoughts?
Step into a new chapter of love and self-awareness with the ‘Break The Cycle’ ecourse.
Add to favorites
Thanks NML! Why does every post feel personalised :-)? It just seems to embody the state of my mind at least the last couple of post have hit home. It is quite easy to think our respective agendas are the truth but stepping out of the situation helps one gain perspective. I sometimes question my last situation with the EU guy as a lesson learnt. Never let your ego do the thinking especially when someone tells u from the jump, I dont know where it is going and dont want to hurt you and in retrospect knowing what I know now will make me tread slower and carefully . I think that self acceptance and forgiveness of ones self and the other party is key. I have gone through some rough days and I am thankful that this too shall pass.. I hope and pray that all those going thru a tough time right now find solace in the sentence.. This too shall pass.. Enjoy the rest of the wk ladies !!!!
Nat, your timing is uncanny. Thank you. I needed to read this today.
I also wanted to know if anyone who dated a divorced guy ever wondered what made the ex or soon to be ex more special than him\her.. this feeling keeps showing its ugly head and it makes me feel empowered then discouraged all at the same time… I dont get why I even think this… thots or comments anyone ?
Gosh, this encapsulates much that I’ve felt for the past few years! Thank you.
I often felt like a lawyer hammering away at my points with my ex – “I’m right! Why can’t you see that I’m right? Look at all the things I’ve done for you? Why would you act this way?”. It didn’t matter if I asked politely or in the heat of an argument – I never got the answers that I was longing for (which would involve instantaneous self-awareness on his part – a tall order!). Looking back it was easier to hammer away at trying to get the answers that I wanted to hear than making an attempt to understand why I wasn’t getting the answer (his inability/refusal to be self-aware), or better yet – understand that it was futile and leave! Maybe it was that I needed to feel vindicated before I could leave him. Leaving him with not being told that I was right, or getting any sense of him feeling sadness or regret about his role in things, seemed like even less of a ‘return on investment’.
In the end, he put the final nail in things and I am left with no closure and just memories of the many frustrating times trying to get him to admit to his role in things. Sometimes in my ‘weak’ moments I think that if I didn’t push so much for admissions that things might have been better between us. Then I think, who I am kidding? I could never have lived for long with his crap and lack of awareness and it was my intuition and self-preservation that kept hammering away at getting the answers I wanted out of him. I just didn’t have the gumption to leave.
Thanks so much. Just what I needed.
I like “this too is passing” even better….it’s a process. Natalie has a post for just about everything I’ve ever experienced, felt, thought, needed to learn, etc. Amazing. Her work is a gift.
I in a very stressful work situation with enormous demands on me right now (working 10-12 hours a day and every weekend) and still feel I am trying to get my ex to step up in business type situations. Please bear with me – I know I shouldn’t be working with him at all but have tried to maintain this as it is my income and I have put a huge amount into this business. Right now he needs to finish a component of one of my reports – otherwise he isn’t bringing in much money. I am not sure I am going to last.
This speaks to me because I still see in myself that I want him to do the “right thing: which is actually be helpful in a real way instead of creating more work, making me have to argue about how to handle projects, deal with his time frames etc. Those articles on the passive agressive personality were so RIGHT when it said these people act in two modalities – they give you too much information or not enough at all. But it never is exactly what you want or need..always a “little” off and causing me more work in the end.
You see he has NO insight into this and if I raised it (again) he would just blame and attack me or play the victim.
But still inside me I want him to “see” that I am working like a dog on these complex projects while he is not working very hard at all although he things he is.
So this speaks to me. It is ME that is the problem here. It is ME that has the “wow he did that again????” little voice in my head. It is ME that says,”why is he causing me so much extra work – surely he can see….” And it is ME that feels pissed off when he actually does things to sabotage our work like actually setting up contracts so we might not get them. All OLD stories. I don’t have these expectations in my relationship but still have them in my work. My expectations of a work partner at the level I work at are not excessive, in fact they are totally correct AND I deserve them but he never will give these things. It makes me sad, angry and ripped off. I know all this – it seems that I have to go through all these steps.
I have talked to my lawyer about cutting out of the business entirely. It is likely to have huge financial repercussions. But I need to do the right thing by me. sorry for the rant..
Espresso,
Cut him out of the business. I presume you are staying in it? You say this is your income. He is doing next to nothing, so why are you continuing to put up with this. You’re ending your marriage to him. End your business dealings with him. If it requires buying him out (although he owes you if he doesn’t do his share of contributing to earnings) do that. Imo, money will NEVER take the place of peace and personal contentment. I’m speaking as one who walked away from her house. I had lived there with eventually deceased hubby for >20 years. Loss of income due to his death and my extended illness put the house in foreclosure. My lawyer claimed (which I think was a lie)that I owed more on the house than it could be sold for. Even a short sale was not worth it. There was no viable solution at the time so I abandoned it. I’ve been in my cute little apartment for 2 1/2 yrs and have never looked back. Maybe I could have made a pittance on the house compared to what it was worth, but I was not mentally or physically able to handle the stress and aggravation.
Espresso, you will do what you see fit, but I’m telling from experience continuing to deal with that deadbeat husband is hurting you. You need to cut ALL ties. And I’ve never seen you mention any children, so what are you waiting for?
Espresso,
And if you are working like a dog, running yourself into the ground, you might as well be doing it ALONE. What the heck do you need him for? To hold you back? As per Nat’s post, Don’t let pursuit of trying to get Mr. Deadbeat to do the right thing, blind you to doing what is best for YOU – mentally, spiritually, emotionally, physically, even ultimately financially ( because you’ll be able to work better without a clouded up mind.)
Espresso,
You need to accept that he not going to change. He will not step up! Ever!
Well said Tinkerbell! I’ve been trying to get this across to Espresso for the last few posts, but you said it much better than I could.
Wiser,
I’ve been following your advice to her and saying,”YES!!!”
Hi Natalie! I am a newbie to the site – I just discovered your wonderful wit and amazingly astute writings a week or so ago. Thank you for this wonderful piece.
5 weeks ago, my beloved boyfriend of 6 1/2 years (yes, you read that right) broke up with me completely out of the blue. He is not married and doesn’t have a girlfriend, but he has lived with his mother all of his adult life, as they decided 30+ years ago that it made more financial sense than for them to live independently. This decision was made back when he was 21-22 and his then fiance jilted him, so he gave up their apartment and moved in with his mother.
When I first heard about her, I thought she had moved in with him and his late wife to help nurse her through her cancer, but no, they have always lived together and his wife had her own place with her family (she was Chinese American and her family refused to accept my boyfriend into their lives. They were only together 17 years!)
My situation has been different too: I have been living with my ex-boyfriend in the home we bought together many years ago (we broke up 9 years ago) because I could not afford to move out due to the poor economy and closing my own business. And he can’t afford the mortgage without me. We are finally going to sell the house next spring at which point I will be free to move forward.
On that fateful day, I asked my boyfriend should I be looking for a place for the two of us or for myself? And he started his reply with, “I [u]couldn’t possibly[/u] live with you because . . . ” and he listed off like 15 lousy reasons: I spend too much money, I like edgy TV shows (!), my cats are filthy (!), I tend to run late when we are supposed to meet, I don’t eat dinner at 5:30 pm every night (!), I go to bed too late, I like to go sailing and dancing, etc. It was a horrific, judgmental and at the same time, ridiculous list. And a total dump session. None of the sentences were a conversation, such as” I’m concerned you spend too much money, would you be able to pay your share of the rent?” After this long list of “offenses” he said, “I don’t want us to live separate lives. We have different lifestyles. I’ve agonized about this for months; I don’t think we’d be happy.” I was just horrified. This is the man who in July took me away for my birthday and gave me a card in which he said I was the love of his life and the woman of his dreams! We’ve been talking about getting married and/or living together since our first year. He’s always known I want a true partner. And he’s been there for me – so loving and caring and affectionate. He listens to me and talks to me and pays attention. These are things my former boyfriend was unable to do.) And he’s “agonized about this for months” and I’m just hearing about it?!
After that awful list, then he said, “All of these things are pretty small, if I knew that you wouldn’t resent my time with my mother. I am considering changing my living situation, but I don’t want her to feel abandoned and lonely.” ACK!!! He is a self assigned caregiver to someone who doesn’t need it! I feel that he made a promise to himself when he was 9 that he would always take care of his mother and he still is. (The father was abusive and finally deserted the family when he was 11. So his mom had to go to work and raise all 4 kids without support.)
I’ve had many insights in the past 5 weeks, and keep re-examining this conversation. Friends feel he can’t commit, or that I threaten his relationship too much with his mom so he’s jettisoning me. We have been so happy and loving together, it’s a huge loss and shock. We had made love both nights that weekend. He had just made me waffles that morning – WTF?! Later, my brother said, “I never heard anyone say the word break up. Maybe he doesn’t think he broke up with you?” I don’t know what is happening, but he did call a couple of times that first week and invited me to dinner (on Friday for Saturday – I’d already made plans) and then I offered up seeing him Sunday instead. By the time he called back on Sunday morning asking if I “was up for an outing?” I’d already accepted a mutual friend’s lunch invitation. (I wasn’t calling him – I was doing No Contact.) He said, “well then let’s get together next weekend.” And I said (hurt), “what’s the point?” (Because I never heard him say he wanted to talk, etc.) And that’s the last I’ve heard from him.
I love this passage: “. . .I wanted him to do the right thing because I was averse to stepping up for me and stepping away from him. I wanted to be right instead of admitting that I’d misjudged the situation. In the end it was me that had to be brave. At one point I’d thought we’d be brave together but he would have left me hanging. It’d be like planning to dive out of a plane together and him insisting that of course he’d be right there with me, only for me to look around and find myself alone.”
By wanting him to do “the right thing,” I want him to show up and apologize and go to counseling with me. I want him to choose his future and not his very comfortable, familiar life. I want to reach out to his sister and brothers, to his friends so that someone knows what is happening and “can talk sense” into him. I feel he is making a huge mistake. We have such a rare, happy, loving and supportive relationship! He will never find that again (nor will I) is how I feel. We should do counseling at a minimum. I want his family to get together and talk about his living situation, everyone talking openly about their mother and maybe sharing the responsibility so that he can finally have a life. But maybe he doesn’t see it that way at all?! He feels “we ignore the elderly in this society.” He seems to feel that he doesn’t deserve his own happiness, his own family. He said to me that day when I said, “doesn’t your mother want you to have your own family?” He said, “it’s too late for me, I’m not going to have kids.” And I said, “[u]I[/u] would be your family!” This attitude was new to me – so limiting!
I’ve been doing No Contact for the most part, so no one but my few friends I’ve actually told know what has happened. (Except I did change my Facebook status to single. That action dropped him off my friends list. But no one in his family seems to have noticed.) But because of my brother’s comments, I sent him an email a week ago, telling him I’m extremely hurt and confused and if he could please answer some questions for me: Did you intend to break up with me that day? Or were you trying to state your concerns, having bottled them up inside? It’s so confusing because you have always been so loving (and respectful) to me. . . and that I would try to hear his concerns without judgement; and to take his time writing me back. And if he was indeed done with me, please let me know so that I can continue to move forward.
A good friend thought he might be more comfortable taking his time to articulate or form his thoughts in writing vs. meeting face to face with me.
Anyhow – I broke No Contact, and I’m still checking my cell and my email for any contact from him. It’s killing me. And yet, if he really makes an effort and shows up in my life willing to try and move forward with me – how can I trust this man that I used to talk to every day, telling him my innermost thoughts and being 100% vulnerable with him, and he used that information to hurt me that day?
I would appreciate any feedback anyone has to give. And I apologize for the length of this post! It’s a long convoluted tale : ) As regards, “the right thing” maybe this is a just a huge train wreck I should have run away from when I first heard about his mom and he is doing me a favor by disappearing. But he has always been such a kind, loving, demonstrative person to me. I don’t think he’s been a future faker. Ugh, . . . thank you all for listening!
Hi Lydia – sounds like an utterly confusing situation. However, he told you he “couldn’t possibly live with you” (!) and has acted like a jerk. I feel it’s time to cut ties with that one. The situation with his ex-wife sounds a bit bizarre – 17 years but never living together?
While I acknowledge there are valid reasons for moving back home, after very briefly dating one man who was still living with (healthy) mother at circa 35 years, I would be very hesitant to do so again – unless they could show themselves capable of cutting apron strings etc.
Lydia, I am sorry to say but his Mum will be always number ONE…I had a friend, she was dating her BF for ten years, they were living separately, he was with his Mum and she want renting privately…He was living with his mum till he was 64!!! His Mum died last year at the age of 94, and I thought finally my friend will move with him and they will be happy together…oh no, few months later he dumped my friend, he is single, happy in his own company and still do not committed to anyone. My poor friend full of regrets….I hope your experience will be different!
Lydia,
You can’t compete with momma! She is numero uno! He is also able to use it as an excuse to not move on to a grown up relationship.
His excuses are bullshit! He was pulling things out of the air, so that he would not have to follow through with his words.
I’m sorry, but he is an overgrown baby, and a waste of your time!
Also, you can’t push him into counseling if he doesn’t want to change. It must be his idea, not yours. He is comfortable where he is.
You cannot change people, nor should we be with someone that needs changing.
Lydia:
As hard as this is to hear and process Allison is right. He’s making excuses and pretty much thrown every single one in the book at you. You deserve so much better. He has pretty much said he has commitment issues through his actions.
Also I agree 100% agree with Allison that you can’t change someone. THEY should WANT to change and men like you BF seldom do. Mourn the relationship, grow and move on. You will find someone better. Hugs
Lydia–that is horrific. It’s the left field stuff that you don’t see coming that’s the most painful. And it sounds like you’re handling it the right way. Stay strong.
Here’s something that crossed my mind when reading your post. You were living with your ex-boyfriend during this relationship. And yes, I realize it was for economic reasons, but for all intents and purposes, it rendered you emotionally unavailable–at least in his eyes. I can’t imagine a healthy minded person accepting this scenario. Would you accept it in a man? (actually, he found a mirror in you that near matched his living arrangement with his mother).
The bad news is that he’s left you with some scars and probably a sense of mistrust towards others. The good news is that you’re out on your own and don’t carry visible baggage that’s sure to attract the EUMs. You get to start all over from scratch.
Lydia, it sounds to me like you’ve left the ball in his court, so to speak. You told him to “take his time” getting back to you, and that seems to be what he’s doing. You also requested that he let you know if he was done with you, and that would be the right thing for him to do. But what if he *doesn’t* do the right thing? What if he *doesn’t* let you know and continues to take his time in getting back to you? Will you write him again in an effort to get some closure, or will you do the right thing by you and “continue to move forward” without him? I think you’ve summed up your situation quite well in your last paragraph; just take out the word “maybe” and you’ve nailed it. It *was* a huge trainwreck, and he *is* doing you a favor by disappearing.
Lydia,
I’m sorry for your very confusing situation. You haven’t stated it but is this a long distance relationship?
How far way is he, 1hr or 6? I ask because if most of your communication is by email or phone, it’s very hard to know what’s REAL and what is not. You need to be able to talk at length in each other’s presence, especially when there are problems that need to be addressed. I think he is EU, that’s the term for emotionally unavailable. He’s given you a silly list of excuses which are workable if he wanted to work with you. I don’t give this r/s much hope, honey. Sorry.
Nat, them drawings make me smile. Keep ’em coming 🙂
@Lydia This man is a mommas boy. His mother comes first in his life. He strung you along all this time. If your looking for a man to put you first in his life than move on. Don’t settle for less than what you deserve.
Wow this has hit a home run with me! Thank you again. indeed you are God sent.
I have a history of surrounding myself with incredibly risky folk (my uncomfortable comfort zone due to an addict father).
My father was a high school dropout and pseudo intellectual (he really thought he knew it all, as addicts tend to lean that way).
I then took up with “know it all” men who really thought they had it figured out and would adopt the infamous, “Ah, bad shit won’t happen to me like everyone else” bs attitude.
I would get so confused thinking, “How can someone read so many lofty books and be so stupid; it must be me who’s stupid.”
Nope. Not me. I’ve always been labeled as controlling, overly cautious, and boring by these men. But in truth, I was just raising normal concerns.
No, it is not normal to screw anyone who advances. No, it is not normal to drink twenty plus alcoholic beverages in one sitting (or in a week!) Yes, you can kill and harm yourself and others if you choose to get behind the wheel after drinking said beverages.
I think for these reckless folk it boils down to a few things:
1) They just don’t care. My ex was depressed and mentally ill. His life wasn’t worth living to him; he didn’t value life, so he adopted the attitude, “I guess I’ll go out in a blaze.”
2) Their only pleasure in life is risky, self-defeating behavior. Some people don’t know how to enjoy the basics, such as clean toilets (I’ve really been urcked out by some scuzzy bathrooms lately), a warm bath, a good movie, the luxury of laundering clothes, cooking, walking, cuddling, etc… Some people (I get there often) lose sight of no strings attached, backlash free pleasure.
3) It fucking sucks to admit they are wrong and have been all along. Think about it. If your dad drank a pint of vodka and screwed the neighbor every night, even though he had given your mom the clap twenty times, you’d get accustomed to seeing life done a certain way, and you’d be likely to live yours on repeat of the same sad scenario.
A man in his mid to late twenties could very well be fucking up on the daily for over a decade, only to realize his whole way of being is jacked. Alarming. Frightening. That is why we can’t realize these things FOR people. It’s too much. They have to sort it out on their own time and often it takes a professional.
4) This is the saddest: Their psyches were broken as children, thus rendering them incapable of sustainable attachment to any other human being for sheer subconscious terror.
They surround themselves with cold, callous people who can’t be trusted, relied upon or depended on to be decent. This ensures no lasting intimacy.
Eventually, they get so hungry for human connection they chase, and even pounce on anything willing to look their way, only to ravage and leave the remains in favor of non intimacy inducing, albeit fleeting and damaging, easy pleasures.
I guess I felt guilty for these types and tried to sort it all out for them. I saw myself in them. I struggle on the daily with fighting and accepting the urge (instead of giving in) to live in jarring extremes.
I think the answer is humility, listening to respectable people, and trusting respectable people. This takes recognizing respectable people. I had to read a lot of informative books on relationships before it really sank in that, “No, it is NOT okay for a partner to be violent. Breaking the windshield of a car is not a proper response in marital conflict, etc…” Bottom line, my family were maniacs growing up and until you’ve seen better, (or at least read about it time and time again), you don’t know there is better.
Peanut – good post. My ex is very damaged from his childhood and divorce. He refuses to talk to someone and lives his ‘life in the moment and truly only cares about himself’. He never knows what he wants, and continually used to say that he could be just like his dad, who lives alone and is a hermit. We broke up a few months ago, after he professed his love for me. He basically just wanted to win. We had been good friends for a year. I thought I could be his friend after we broke up, but was lying to myself all summer. He told me about a month and half ago that he was talking to someone, that it wasn’t serious. I didn’t handle it well, especially after I found out that she is separated, not even divorced. But makes sense as in his mind he doesn’t have to get emotionally involved because ‘she is so into him’. He’s contacted me twice since going NC and I am sure its not the last. Its been a hard 1.5 months for me as I feel such a huge loss. Anyway – good post!
Peanut-
“No, it is not normal to screw anyone who advances.”
But have you noticed that it is normal for them and, if we aren’t skilled at trusting ourselves, we start doubting ourselves if our morality or whatever is different from theirs? It’s as if we’re the unhealthy, immature ones for feeling used and uncomfortable with casual “relationships” and other forms of promiscuity.
By the way, being so busy with school, it must be difficult to post here so I’m appreciative of your taking the time to post as I always get something to think about from what you write.
Perfect timing for me to read this. I just broke it off with my girlfriend b/c she let her teenage sons be disrespectful to me–Calling me names, stealing from me, humiliating me in public, etc. She saw it as “unconditional love” for her kids & refused to discipline them. All I wanted was for her to do the right thing & stick up for me. She thought I was being selfish & should just tolerate it. I could’ve handled the family drama if she had supported me, but she played the “MY Kids Come First” card & left me hanging. I tried to avoid the conflict by staying away, but then she laid a guilt trip on me. She even tried bringing religion into it. I finally decided I’d had enough & broke up w/ her–not b/c of the kids, but b/c of her tolerance. Of course, she now thinks I was forcing her to “choose” me over them, but all I wanted was her to see I was being treated unfairly & do the right thing.
Hy john…it broke my heart to hear ur story there’s not many men here. What I Wanted to say is don’t let that situation break you from trying again it was good to let that go u seem to b a very good man u will I can guarantee find someone who will respect u….neva accept disrespect frm anyone keep tryn k goodluk hopefully the next lady won’t hav little shits u already ran across if so run for the door…..
John– She may think she’s putting her kids first but she’s not. It sounds like she is using her kids to feel important and loved. Her kids don’t feel loved. Kids feel loved when parents are parents and set appropriate boundaries. Boundaries are like cups. Without cups, the water just goes everywhere and goes to waste.
Thank goodness you’re out of that chaos!
Spot on Natalie. For me, the takeaway point is about doing something for another with the full expectation that I’ll get what I want in return, and falling apart when it doesn’t happen. I’m working hard right now to acclimate to the idea that no one else is responsible for my happiness and I’m not responsible for theirs. Takes a lot of work to stick to that rule…
Maeve,
I agree. Many times if you do it for a specific gain you end up disappointed. When I went to Petie’s this past August for his bday, I came early bcus he supposedly couldn’t wait to see me. I even had his bday gift neatly tucked away, and it wasn’t cheap as I generally buy quality things. I’d been expecting the same in return when mine rolled around in October. Huh! No visit, no gift. That, and his less than cordially social behavior while I was there >10days precipitated my taking the two week break. I’m willing to forgive but I don’t forget so I won’t be jumping into the sea without a life jacket ever again.
Did you ever find any more info on Rori Raye? If not, you’re not missing a thing.
Tinkerbell–I don’t think I had read that part of the Petie story. Truly sucks. Sorry to hear it and I hope he’s gotten the damn message. Which, of course, has no bearing on your well-being. 🙂
I read a few posts on Rori Raye and moved on. She seems a little bit too lenient towards bad behavior.
Hi Maeve,
Well, I took my break to shift my mindset. He contacted and we talked. Being that he’s quite mature in age, I couldn’t see sitting him down for anything that bordered on lecturing. However, because my feelings are under much better control I’ve been dropping tidbits of information concerning my needs and desires. He is very intuitive for a man. He’s gotten to know me quite well so when I make a statement he knows I mean it. Plus, he sees now that I can live without him. He didn’t visit for my bday because he was having the rotator cuff surgery which ironically was schedule exactly on my bday. He swore, and at least he is not a liar, that the operating schedule dictated that particular day. Bottom line, I’ve forgiven him and we are back together. However, I’m much more observant and listening more carefully for actions not matching words. No more cloud 9 for me. I’ve been learning to view him as a very good friend with occasional bear hugs and light kisses. I’m fully accepting his limitations sexually, and at this stage of my life I can count on being treated well. We all slip up at times. But overall it’s a joy to have him in my life and he definitely lets me know he feels the same.
As far as RR goes. Now you know why I basically said she’s a waste of time for any woman and particularly us BR women. You said it. She is far too lenient re bad behavior and seems to condone fawning over a man to get him to do what you want. Screw that!
Maeve. I meant to say that at this stage of my life I don’t need a very vigorous roll in the hay. I had plenty of sex when I was a young woman. My needs and values are modified with advanced age.
Tinkerbell—that sounds like a happy development. I think you made yourself clear to him. As long as he understands you can and will walk away if you feel shortchanged, it will be fine. You just needed some leverage. (we all do!)
That sounds really lovely Tinkerbell! I wish you the very best!
Good post, Nat 🙂 In the end it’s all about respect and freedom. Most of us are so afraid of freedom that we end up disrespecting other people’s choices and completely disregarding our own freedom of choosing what we think is best for ourselves. This, of course, puts the blame on “HIM/THEM/HER” and lets us off the hook of having to deal with the consequences of our own choices.
To me, the definition of love entails freedom. If love is not free, then it is not love. It’s something else. The problem is the impracticality of relationships in general, because where there is dependance, there will ALWAYS be problems. If the view we have of ourselves DEPENDS on the view the rest of the world has on us, then we will be miserable. If there is emotional dependance, there will be unreasonable demands and emotional obligations (despicable torture and the opposite of love -which is free, not an obligation-.)
If we are faced with a choice that is bad for us, we CAN say no. If we say yes, then it’s not their fault. They’re just being who they are, whether we like it or not.
Ladies Mariah carey just dropped a single called (the art of letting go) please listen to it its been inspirational for me so check it out……
Thank you all! I really appreciate your points of view and your wonderful words of support! @ Jeannette – It’s so awful to think he’s been stringing me along. That makes me wonder if it was all intentional, all along! Or just circumstance. It’s awful to think any of this was premeditated . . . and of course every girl wants and deserves to be #1 and to have their own home with their partner. I have told him so many times I am not asking for anything unusual!
@Maeve – I acknowledge our situations mirrored each other in a way and I was grateful he would tolerate my situation as I thought most men wouldn’t be willing to date me once they heard about it; that they wouldn’t understand. But my attachment isn’t emotional. I am friends with my ex and roommates, but he is so shut down emotionally, that even though there’s someone else in the house, it’s lonelier than if I lived alone! When I can afford to move, I am gone, unlike my boyfriend. And when the house sells, I will have to go whether I can afford it or not! The end is coming! (And that makes me very frightened actually. That’s humiliating to say as a grown woman who is independent in spirit and practice. But my finances have really taken a blow over the past 3 years, and I thought I had a partner who was going to be with me (and cosign the lease too) and that doesn’t seem to be happening now. . .
@ Allison – you are absolutely right and I can’t force anyone into counseling and to “wake up.” And it was so cruel the way he drove me away, and then he doesn’t have to pony up on his promises.
@ Little Star – that is so sad about your girlfriend! And a real cautionary tale! Thank you so much for sharing that. I easily could have been that girl. I’m so sorry! As Natalie said in her post: “. . .At one point I’d thought we’d be brave together but he would have left me hanging. It’d be like planning to dive out of a plane together and him insisting that of course he’d be right there with me, only for me to look around and find myself alone.” I can easily imagine that happening!
He has asked me about making a budget for where we’d live. He has asked me which of my possessions am I willing to sell or give up as we would be living in a smaller place. BUT he has “disappeared” on me about once a year for the past 3 years. The first time, I (a veteran of many years of therapy and CODA and ACA groups) said to him in a tender moment, my theory about his unconscious promise to himself as a young boy to always protect and take care of his mother. He became furious and accused me of “insulting” and “attacking his family” and didn’t speak to me for days. Wow . . . major overreaction and misinterpretation! Then we met for a cup of coffee, and he went on and on about how his family “has always been there for me” even when his wife was dying, etc. And they matter the most to him. As his girlfriend (of 3 years at that time!) I would think I should be on the inside of the wagon train circle he was drawing, but no, I was on the outside and he felt he had to “protect his family” from me(!)
Last year he got angry when I called to tell him I’d be late for our date by a few hours as I was still at the car stereo repair shop (it was incredibly chaotic there and all the projects were running past their store hours). He told me to not bother coming. Granted I hadn’t told him until I was already late, because I knew he’d disapprove of my spending money on my car stereo. He didn’t talk to me for 10 days. That was almost exactly a year ago! But other than those 3 weird!!! acting out times, he’s been so good to me . . . This last time, at the end of his “list” he said, I didn’t want to blow up like I did before. Oh, so he was being helpful and communicating! : (
I feel so stupid. But I look at his face and I look at his pictures and I just melt, I love him so much! He’s such a good man; so sweet, so gentle and yet strong in a good way. So I thought! And then he turns out to be an AC?!
And I’m scared about other men I might date – men who might call me a b&#$* or hit me. That kind of thing never happened. We have genuinely enjoyed each other’s company all this time and been happy. I’ve never experienced that with anyone before! I truly thought I was one of the lucky ones!
Hi Lydia, I admire your clarity and the strong sense of self which you exhibit – at least your writing conveys this. You seem very strong. IMO, this is most definitely a bottom line scenario and he must either man the eff up or you are going to walk away with your head held high, even though this will be difficult and frightening. You seem to be one hell of a brave woman. My suggestion is coming I think from a sense of your ability to say what you mean and mean what you say so sorry if you’ve already done this but if I was you (haha I mean if I was how I imagine you to be..anyway) I would say to him something along the lines of “look buster, here is the situation. We are now both in a position to move in together as a mature adult couple as we have been anticipating. I am selling my house (whatever it is you are doing right now) and will be renting/buying over the next month. So you can either join me or not, the choice is yours. Please understand that this is not negotiable. This is an absolutely necessity to me. I need our relationship to progress to this level. I cannot stay in this relationship if we do not progress now that all extraneous circumstances have been resolved”. Lydia, IMO *leave verbalising opinions re his mother out of it* if you decide to go this route. Don’t get embroiled in his issues here, it’s just not worth it and he’s going to be defensive no matter what and will be happy to drag you in there so he can feel justified in not fleeing the nest and becoming a real man. As others have said and you yourself suggest, it seems he has been consistently immature in this area and appears to be pathologically resistant to self reflecting on the problem.
In a nutshell, you should get on with the plans you made, be upfront with him about what your doing and then walk. It seems doubtful to me, but if he is going to effing man up, he is only going to do it if you avoid repetition of the mother dynamic with him. Show him you have a the ability and gumption to have your own life.
I’m so sorry for your disappointment and pain, though I can’t help feeling that if he doesn’t effing man up you’ll be better off and WILL meet a partner of equal maturity to yourself and it’s his loss. If I may express my what seems to be border contempt for him as you describe him; What an effing idiotic and obtuse fool he is. And as crunch time is now here it seems that he is finding it impossible to keep hidden an appalling emotional stuntedness – you describe three incidents where it has partially manifested I think, but now…well it’s ‘coming out’ so to speak. I’m sorry Lydia, maybe he will man up, but really that feels like wishful thinking. What do you think?
Lydia, having just read you initial post more closely, I can see that you emailed him a week ago asking him to explain himself and expressing your very natural confusion and hurt. Good on you because going on how you have described your relationship, I can see how you would need to do this. However, I don’t think you should tell him what I suggested above if he hasn’t yet responded to this email. If he responds you may find that this feels right for you or you may not. In the meantime, you just have to keep moving forward with your practical plans. Lydia, you must be going through enormous pain in the face of what must feel like appalling callousness. I’d imagine you’d be feeling furious, flabbergasted and VERY hurt. I hope you can tap into some nurturing and trustworthy support to ease and sooth you as you travel through. Concentrate on taking care of yourself. It’s not likely to be of help now, but from an outsider’s perspective I think his callousness is actually not intended to hurt you; he has hit a wall in his psyche that at his age and with his nature/character or whatever he is unlikely to overcome. He does not WANT to admit a problem, address his mother issues and grow up. He is too weak. So he just wants to stay in comfort zone. It is more pathos, weakness than callousness. If that’s of any help…that’s how it looks from where I sit. Use the support you have in the real world Lydia…don’t go this alone.
Lydia,
The point of him breaking off the relationship once a year is a big sign of commitment issues. Also, he blew up over his dependent relationship with his mother because you exposed the truth – You can certainly take care of someone, without living in the same house – most certainly if they’re healthy. He is using his family as an excuse, so that he does not have to commit. At least he was honest enough to tell you they will always come first. Believe him.
I think you need to be honest about the men you are choosing, and your own commitment issues. Even though you are friends with the ex, it is also a safe place for you to stay connected to this guy. As you said, how many men would accept this arrangement. The two men that you have mentioned sound emotionally void, I would start to focus on the patterns of the men you are attracted to, if you want a healthy relationship. It sounds like you are choosing men you can help and take care of (Florencing) and try and break these unhealthy habits. Time to take care of you!
Lydia you’re the common denominator.
Lydia,
Why would you think the next man you’re going to meet is going to call you a name or hit you? Is this your history?
@ John – Good for you and I’m sure it was hard to do. You do deserve to be treated with respect and to not be humiliated and stolen from (!) That’s some terrible parenting! One needs to treat their partner with respect and kindness and gratitude. And the children need to learn to behave and treat others with respect as well – whether or not they are a member of their family. I’m sorry you had this experience and that your ex didn’t do the right thing. Not all women are like that! I hope you find someone who appreciates you and works with you to build your relationship. Good luck!
Very inspirational post- thanks for sharing! 🙂
Here’s a question for you, how do you know when its not you being selfish? Relationships are about compromise, so sometimes even when things are disappointing, it doens’t make the other person a ‘bad’ person, perhaps just doing what’s right for them, and lets face it…sometimes you can’t have both. So what is it that deciphers you getting what is ‘right’ from your relationship (or walking away) or you just being overly selfish?
I’ve stopped waiting for other people to do ‘right’ by me. I’m taking responsibility for myself now, but it is scary…but it feels good, and I’m really enjoying making my own decisions, and being in charge of my own work, and I feel really good when I achieve a goal. Plus, I really enjoy making my own decisions–well, it doesn’t come without stress, but I like it; I like it. 😉
As I read this post, I actually laughed. Not because I thought this post was a joke, but because a few occasions came to mind where I had been hit with this exact lesson. So I kind of had that “Girl! Been there, done that!” moment, and it made me laugh….at myself. So yes, reading this brought back some old memories that made me chuckle a bit because I remembered how angry I was on these occasions when I felt that I had trusted someone to do right by me only to be surprised that they did what was right by them. I know, shocking isn’t it? People actually acting in their own best interests…..Anyways….So when I would go off on how they shoulda, woulda, coulda, I failed to realize that I shoulda, woulda, coulda NOT left it up to them and decided my own fate. It took me QUITE a few times to learn this lesson. Now I realize is I was giving these – what I often times knew to be shady – people too much credit and power over me. What I finally had to realize and accept is that people are who they are, and they are going to do what they want regardless of what I or anyone else thinks. So getting upset and making myself crazy over their actions was pointless. Doing so was just another way of me trying to control the uncontrollable, and as we all know, ain’t nobody got time for that! Once I got comfortable with this reality, I was able to release a lot of the anger and resentment I held towards these people and move on with my life. I had actually stopped making it about me, and put the responsibility of their actions right back where it belonged – on them! So what was the biggest take away from all of this for me, you ask??? Well, if I had needs or expectations I had to speak up. I’m a big girl. I can use my big girl words. I had to stop handing over control of my life to others, and handle things myself.
You ladies are just awesome! Thank you for taking your valuable time to help me with my understanding/comprehension/recovery from this blindside. Your thoughts and opinions are truly helpful! It would be nice to think he wasn’t being malicious but rather immature when he “attacked” me. During his diatribe, he said I had attacked his family twice (by telling a dumb joke about their last name) and I’ve been thinking the past two days I’d like to tell him – “no, that is what attacking someone is!” But no, I don’t get that opportunity. . .
I still haven’t heard from him; I keep checking my cell and my email throughout the day like an idiot. I did email a friend of his through Fb and just suggested that maybe he needs a good friend right now, and maybe he (the friend) could reach out and go for a walk with him. Our mutual friend is a really healthy, spiritual and progressive good man (who incidentally chose marriage recently for himself!). Maybe he can draw something out of my boyfriend before it’s too late, or whatever, be of some help to him only.
I think he’s narrowed his world down to just his mom and me and now it’s just his mom and him. As I said before, we used to each have our own businesses, and his was really busy, so he would see hundreds of people and kids every day. I think he might be really isolating on top of any issues to do with me. So if there’s to be any hope I might as well try. On the other hand, perhaps it’s best just to “cut bait” the avoid future trauma if we were to get back together.
No, I’ve never really had a boyfriend call me names or hit me, (that would be a deal breaker) but I certainly have friends who have and I was grateful I had a good guy finally who really listened to me and cared and made an effort, who was a joy to be with and the sex was good too! I don’t really want to start that all over with someone new because I really was for the most part happy. (Except for having to walk on eggshells about his mom which I couldn’t always do!) UGH.
Yes, I am the common denominator, but I guess both men who seemed really sweet and hard working and loving wound up being emotionally unavailable. My ex shut down when he found out he was going to lose his job years ago (the entire staff lost their job due to the company selling off that business.) He has never been willing to do counseling, etc. and he has never recovered emotionally or financially. He just grunts and no longer is affectionate or sexual or anything to do with joy. He is a good person! And a kind person but is just barely showing up in life. And my bad for buying a house with him after not knowing him longer. I made a “rule” to myself years ago, to not marry anyone until we had been together 5 years, because then I would have time to see how they reacted to life’s hiccups – the good and definitely the bad, before I was legally tied to them. Well, buying a house is a big knot to untie, especially when you have no money or flexibility. . . But again – another reason to wonder how well I pick ’em!
I just keep shaking my head, wondering how my boyfriend could do that to me, say those awful things to someone he loves? And ruin a relationship of 6 1/2 years in an hour. . . ! Thank you all so much!
“I don’t want us to live separate lives. We have different lifestyles. I’ve agonized about this for months; I don’t think we’d be happy.”
Lydia, not sure of course and this is a long shot, but if that above is what he said word for word then it may be your answer. I personally don’t think it’s worth second guessing and analysing someone’s motivations when they can’t or won’t try to be upfront with me about what the feck is going on and it seems he (this man) is not being forthcoming, not replying to your email. However I get that it can help in the short or even long term if we can find a reason that makes sense to us even if only on intellectual level. So, you know people reveal what’s going on for them often times in their language though they may be consciously avoiding addressing an area of conflict. Thus the truth will find a way to ‘out’. Here’s what came to mind: Your ex (?), in living with mum all these years, won’t/can’t ‘separate’ from her psychologically, indeed as he puts it in relation to you he doesn’t “want to live separate lives”. He made all those petty attacks on you,and to a normal person separated from their parent/s they do appear as excuses and are quite pathetic, but my take is that he could actually mean it, though unaware that he does. This different ‘lifestyle’ thing when I read it is about you actually having ‘separate’ interests to him – dancing, sailing was it? etc. And now you have called him to come good on your plans which involve not only him physically leaving the nest to set up with you but having to face on a daily basis your (relative) wholeness. Your posts exemplify that you ‘have a life’ – you do not wait around for him, or cave in at short notice – you make plans, have friends, hobbies and all the rest. He knows you have and will continue to have a ‘separate’ life from him and now I’m not talking about the particular things he mentioned but what they represent to him. You are a whole person and he sees this and knows it. The blow ups you mention, probably especially the one where you were late and he didn’t speak to you for ten day was it?, I think show very clearly that his pattern is to retreat when it becomes too obvious to him that like the healthy person you are psychologically, you will never find comfort/solace in being merged with him. I’m assuming this is the dynamic between him and his mother – that he has never separated from her psychologically (and she has never done what she should have to let him go).
Lydia, I guess maybe you have been comfortable with this until the crisis hit but you are healthy enough to want to progress away from the ex you currently live with and were hoping that he (mother man)also had the ability to take that step in relation to mother. I think the best thing for you to do is assume he cannot. One thing I guess is that if you push this with him I think he will just dig in his heels and as I get the impression that he is older (50s?) there is really buckley’s chance that he will be able to change. IF he has this toxic bond with his mother then it’s nigh on impossible. Even were she to drop dead tomorrow, from this perspective he would NOT move ahead in his relationship with you in terms of living with/marrying you because he knows that you cannot and will not be able to replace his mother – ie allow him to merge with you in some sort of symbiotic co-dependence. You are, even with your fears of what is coming when you must move, your own person. It’s possible however, that he never has been and if so, the odds are totally against him ever being so.
Lydia,
In time, you will recognize that the issues were much deeper than the one hour of time you speak of. Hon, this guy would never let you in, and this was evident by his actions, comments and overblown reactions. Momma is his safety net. Please see that this guy will never grow up, and needs someone to take care of him.
Please recognize how the co-dependent issues may have contributed to the men you have chosen to be with.
I thought the comment about meeting abusive men was an excuse, as you are not yet seeing how unhealthy this guy truly is.
I think you ladies are hitting it right on the head and you are giving me a great deal to think about. I’m so impressed at the level of your perspective and advice! Thank you so kindly! The separate lives thing I believe relates to a couple we know (married over 35 years) that has really grown apart and even take separate vacations. I told him I didn’t want that either. The whole point of wanting to be with him is to have a true partner. Someone who will really walk through life with me.
You are right, I do have a life and I work and I still have my business “on the side.” I’m a busy girl most days, but not all. And I do make plans ahead of time, etc. His world seems to have really narrowed down like I said before, and I think when I’m running late, like a chicken with my head cut off trying to pack and drive down there (yes, he lives an hour away and he’s 54 and I’m 53), he’s just sitting there waiting for me and is probably getting angry or frustrated. I think part of the separative lives/interests thing is maybe he feels marginalized by my life or my activities, like he isn’t important to me. But I make the effort to drive down there every weekend and I include him and he is welcome to join me! The boat thing seems to have really set him off. He does not like sailing – he claims he’s bored. So I told him he can do other things those days – like drive his mom to the beach as he likes to do. But if someone is happy to take me on as crew on a boat, I’m for sure not saying no! That’s not an offer that comes around every day : )I do want to experience things. I also take him to meet friends. I have so many of them, there are still some for him to meet for the first time. He seems to resent them or my time visiting them also! I can’t win.
My life is actually quite dull with few activities when I think of all the wonderful things there are to do. But I do take dance classes 2 nights a week, and go sailing from time to time, and I want him to go couples dancing with me. He used to go along with that but I guess he’s drawn a line. Or is just using it as an excuse to drive a wedge. I am so tired. . . and sick of being so sad. Your comment about him probably wanting someone to merge with is disturbing – like I would just have to step into their existing schedule – meal times and activities, mirror how they live their lives so I’ll be included. Eff that! But you are probably right. I didn’t see it because we both had our own businesses. He’s used to me being a powerful, proactive woman who works until 10 at night. Why would he think I would change, and that drastically?
That final piece about him never letting me in is so telling. When he’s freaked out, he takes the stand that he has to keep his family away from me. That they are the most important people in his life and I don’t understand that. And that I attack them (uh, because I see their enmeshment? I don’t actually say anything to them about it, but I do point it out to him.) And I resent feeling I can’t tell people around me who are mutual friends, and I can’t say good bye to his family, because I’m doing NC and what if he comes back and I’ve talked to them about him, etc. I’ve told very few people. What a mess . . . Tonight I was running errands and ran into a mutual friend and told her what had happened. I thought of the term “emotional roadkill.” He vomited all those lousy things and then left me by the side of the road . . . When I was talking to her, I said,”his wife died when he was 44. What more of a wakeup call do you need that you need to live your life?! To take advantage of the good that comes your way? When will his life ever matter?” I guess I don’t get to make him “wake up.” And I know he will never meet someone as good as me. . .
I do know about codependance and guess who I’ve been talking to every day for years – my main support person. . . That shows a lack of judgement! ; )I started going back to my CODA meeting last week to get a recharge. Thank you all so much. It’s been a very emotional day!
Btw we never have any privacy to talk about important things, and sit and map out a future on the kitchen table. His mom is always around. Or we are talking in private, curled up in bed, but have to get downstairs and all have coffee and breakfast together. I know, it makes me sick “hearing me say it.” But that’s what it’s been like! We are always with other people or in the car driving somewhere or at a restaurant. We’ve never had a place to ourselves to just be.
Lydia,
You’re making excuses for this guy. If he wants a fuller life, he can make it.
YOU drive down there every weekend??? he never comes to you? Are you kidding! Hon, why are you doing backflips for this guy? This is so one-sided.
I have to say that the thing with the ex wife was very odd! If he could never make his life with her, he will never do the same with you. You really need to look deep and understand why this relationship has been acceptable for you.
This man has problems.
Thank you so much Alison : ) Yes, I’ve driving down ever since he sold his business two years ago. We used to work near each other and my home is on the way.) The commute is much worse for him to drive up north to me, and because my ex is all weird about me spending the night with my boyfriend in our house, what’s the point of him coming up here!? Yes, it’s been a very strange arrangement for this day and age. But we had a “you and me against the world” thing going I thought. Whatever we could do to be together. And all the more reason for us to rent our own place. We started looking at “love nests” years ago. But never had the money. . .
The commuting thing has been really one sided so I don’t think he has a leg to stand on the irritation department. It’s alot for a girl to pack up for the weekend! ; ) And I resent his mom even more because their place is where I stay with him, instead of coming up here. I would like to be in my own home. . . Years ago, when I had my own place, I didn’t have to take anyone else’s needs or schedules into consideration. And I much prefer it! I could have over whoever I wished. I had privacy and I was in control. I don’t have those things right now and it’s very frustrating. Those of you single ladies who have your own places – I hope you are appreciating that even more now!
Lydia,
Your resentment is misdirected. The blame should be directed at this guy, but then you would have to move on from him. Right?
Your ex dictates who stays with you?
This is a mess, you need to remove the rose-colored glasses.
happy to hear you’re returning to the CODA classes.
After going NC for 8 months then falling for a sob story (only to fall flat on my arse again 8 months after that) I’m now NC again after challenging the MMAC I had been with for nearly 7 years (I know!) to come good on his promise to make his separation legal in the form of a divorce (I was told “When you talk like that it just makes me think why should I leave my wife for you?”!) Nice eh? … I immediately went NC and unlike last time had no desire get him back.
That was 3 months ago, its different this time because first time round I didn’t believe it was real, I thought he would have this realisation and see the error of his ways and pay me back for my emotional investment by finally seeing how he couldn’t be without me. I felt owed.
I avidly read your posts the first time I went NC last April, I enrolled on the self esteem course, but he still got his foot in the door again. This time that final comment was like somebody taking off my rose coloured spectacles and I have to say that this is the best post I have read … it makes so much sense and gives me a lot of comfort. I did feel like I was owed and doggedly persuade the fantasy of ‘us’ being together whilst ignoring my gut saying “Do you really want the reality of what your life will be like with him?” My focus was so set on the prize I blanked everything out and found myself colluding in some shady behaviour that I knew was wrong and ended up treating myself in a less than manner. Thanks Nat for this post, it gives me such a lot of clarity and reassurance that I have made the right choice this time.
Intothelight,
Please read Natalie’s The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship. And if you haven’t read Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, by all means, you should. This NC is extremely hard. You need all the support you can get so that you DO NOT GO BACK AGAIN. And commit to really paying attention. You can read until blue in the face, but if you’re resistant and not absorbing it, it’s wasted effort.
This man has been having a great time playing you along with the future faking, having his cake and eating it, too. Do you even know absolutely that you’re the only OW? He’s not going to leave his wife. I know you cannot accept the truth, but if he were going to do it, he would have done it already after 7 years! That comment that he made to you rings a bell with me. I remember it so well and you told us that a couple of months ago. Into, it shows utter disrespect and even contempt for you, regardless or any other positives he may display.
Lastly, how would you feel if you were his wife instead of the OW? Would you want him cheating on you? That’s what you could count on if he ever married you. You speak of “colluding in some shady behavior”. You don’t think messing around with someone else’s husband is shady behavior?
Be glad he’s unavailable and RUN.
And, btw, I’ve been where you are now. I didn’t stay for 7 yrs. No way! 6 miserable, self-loathing, soul destroying months was enough for me.
Thanks Tinkerbell, I have read Nat’s book … as I said the rose tinted glasses are off, I dont want him back at all.
Reading this helps put others and my behavior in perspective. Just as we are not responsible for other people’s actions, we are not responsible for making their behaviors change according to us. It goes both ways. Thank you for the lightbulb aha moment!
This post really helps me understand both why and how I functioned in an ex-dysfunctional work environment; it possessed the same flawed dynamics as my family: management said one thing and did another; they gave us a set of values to follow, but they didn’t follow them. And the distorted reality maddened me.
So there I was running around trying to get them to do right by me and others; weird, I always felt like such of a crazed child, and my approach, at times, was childish.
I thought about leaving, but, goodness, I felt so comfortable there, rolling around in all that chaos, smiling at co-workers, saying “never a dull moment,” and loving all of the stress, drama, and confusion, like a hyped-up adrenaline junkie.
Sadly, I never knew why I liked it so much, but I decided I belonged there; I deemed it my calling. And now to know I was just seeking my own level, well, I dunno it’s definitely disappointing, but it makes so much sense; I can’t help but be grateful to say, “Oh, so that’s why.”
It’s such a breakthrough for me on a deeeeeep level–it rocks my psyche–it inspires me to avoid such environments in the future, as I would an AC who gives me butterflies.
Thanks Natalie!
My sub-selves are pretty quiet today, and I’ll knock on wood if it will ward off another anxiety attack.
I was all set to spin out yesterday, but for some reason I couldn’t. It was strange: where I would normally lose my temper, I didn’t, and I immediately thought of what action to take to solve the problem. I had to smile at God and my angels cuz I think I just got an A.
I was thinking, and I decided that I’m ok with feeling bad. I was just like, “Ok, you feel bad, and sometimes you’re going to feel bad, and that’s ok. I don’t need to do anything.”
I really miss my ex, but I’ve decided that’s ok too. I’m not going to act on those feelings. Of course, I miss him; it’s ok”
Alrightee-then, sub-selves, parties over, time to get back to work, and procrastinators, I don’t wanna hear it. 😉
Yesterday this dude calls me, and he tells me he wants to try and resolve a production problem with my department, and I gotta tell ya I would love to resolve this problem with him, as its resolution has me working triple time, so I was really happy to hear his offer, and I hate to admit it, but I felt comforted. I wanted to believe him, and all of these thoughts went through my head, where I imagined him finally doing right by me and my department, and I noticed, I stopped working on the next report I planned to fire off at him, and I started to lose focus.
But hold up, wait a minute! I’ve been working on a solution for the past three months, and I just delivered a huge stack of reports to him to ponder, and during his call he mentions he’s going on vacation for two weeks, so he won’t be able to read my reports until he gets back, but when he gets back, yeah, sure, he, at some point, he wants to resolve the issues.
He’s a polite dude, and we often exchange small-talk emails, relaxing into cordial banter. BUT, he’s full of it; he doesn’t want to resolve anything with me; he just says he does whenever he thinks I’m ahead in the game, or in control of the situation, so he throws me bones, hoping to slow me down, so he can re-gain control. If he wanted to resolve it, he would.
Ok, so where am I going with this?
This dude I don’t know is triggering me. I feel some weird attachment to him I find disturbing. I feel like I know this dude, but I don’t, and I feel like being nice to him, and I don’t want to fire off the next report because I think he’s being nice to me, ( wth?), but he isn’t being nice to me, he is just being cordial–actually, he’s trying to sweet talk me, and I’m sick and tired of being sweet talked by men, and losing my focus!
In December, we will both participate in a big meeting, where he’ll ‘fight’ for resources for his department, and I’ll ‘fight’ for same.
I want him to do right by me, I want him to do what I want him to do, and give me what I want and need.
I imagined myself waiting for him to do the ‘right’ thing because it would make things so much easier for ME. I wouldn’t have to go through all of this conflict resolution crap, and I wouldn’t have to do all of this work.
And, I’ve got some weird fear thing going on in my head–afraid to assert myself and go after what I need because it feels like if I do assert myself and fire off the next round, I’ll be hurting him. But I’m not hurting him I’m doing my job.
Ok, but it seems like we’re getting along, and I’m afraid to piss him off, or rock the boat.
I’m asking myself, why? Why do you feel this way? What is the trigger point?
Right now, I feel a scared child who didn’t want to upset her parents because that would hurt them or piss them off because my mom always acted hurt or pissed off if I didn’t agree with her.
My parents were supposed to be the ones taking care of ME, so I can’t exactly piss them off or hurt them. Who is going to feed me? I can’t hurt them. I have to keep them strong…support them.
I have to please them to get along, to survive, to get what I need and want. ;( I have to please everybody to get along and survive, so they will leave me alone, so I’ll be safe, so they won’t bother me, so they won’t hurt ME, and so I can get what I want and need.
And, so if I’m nice to this dude, and I show him I’m a nice person, maybe he’ll do right by me, and he’ll take care of me.
I suppose that sounds like I’m using him, right?
Not so fast, I’m not trying to use him. I’m just scared because I’m being triggered, and my psyche is confused; it thinks I’m still a child, who needs to placate her parents in order to survive. Ok, that was some real $%^&#, but it’s over, and I’m an adult now; I can take care of myself, dag-gone-it. I don’t need to kiss this dude’s butt to get what I want and need.
I can give myself what I want and need, and I can handle the back lash…the consequences. I’m going to go ahead an roll the dice without being so afraid of the outcome.
I’m going to send the report, and the next one after that…. I’m going to do my best work, and I guess we’ll just see what happens in December.
Also, whenever I did something my parents didn’t like…whoah. I had to go through so much just to get them to let me do anything, so I learned to coax them into letting me say go over a friends house or enter a competition, whatever…no wonder I’m always over-planning my moves … procrastinating….
I get it: My coping/defense mechanisms need an overhaul…aaacckkk!
PEanut…fabulous post…sometimes this conflict between our view of the right thing and theirs is not as obvious which was my problem. Now that my eyes have cleared I can’t believe our differences. I proceeded as if we were on the same page in terms of family priorities, personal boundaries, communication, respect, importance of being a partnership, priorities and goals in life, ways of engaging or not with people, planning ahead or not…because this all seemed so “right” and reasonable in terms of a relationship and managing and supporting a business and a family. Not so. My ex lives in a bubble where nothing really seems to bother him very much but he certainly COULD act to sabotage things. The more he was like that and the more he was “absent” the more I worked harder and took on more responsibility for important things. I wanted his help but when it gave it it was almost MORE work and exhaustion. I saw parts of this dynamic but not all of it. I told myself that I was too demanding that I was being unjust and uncharitable because he told me he was “trying to so hard to change.” The more sobering fact of this is that my ex was NEVER interested in my point of view and NEVER even “thought” of changing because he actually likes the way he is. I would say that most of what I ever said went in one ear and out the other.
Don’t forget that people….they LIKE the way they are for the most part and if they really do want to change…you will see it.
Maeve
You are so right; Roris
latest is about how we should be open to fixing men. Florence anyone?
Noquay,
She makes any BR educated woman want to barf. Oh, yeah, I forgot you’ve had an unpleasant encounter with her.
Lydia
Yep, I do appreciate that I can own my own home, that I keep it the way I want to (cool old furnishings, cool art on the walls, plants and books everywhere, contented cats draped around the wood stove, minimal clutter of modern life). Women need their own space, if for no other reason that relationships can and do go south and one does not want to wind up homeless or stay in a bad situation because you have nowhere else to go.
Tinkerbell
Glad you are working some sort of compromise with Petey and doing so with open eyes. My dudes birthday is Sunday and his family is descending on him to watch football (gag) together. Since “weather” is coming, we have cancelled our celebration of his bed (can see the front moving in over the mountains as we speak) he sounded relieved which is fine because I then do not have to rush around cleaning the house, making up the guest room and bathroom, buying groceries, etc. Plus if there’s actual snow, I need to get on my racing snowshoes and get some serious training in.I do wish these dudes would be honest about their situations from the start.
Damned phone, that’s celebration of his birthday (bd) not bed! I do wish it were possible to see more than two lines of print at a time on this thing.
@ noquay: I rather liked that you were celebrating his bed! ; ) Kinda wondered what that was all about! ; ) And your home sounds just lovely! I too love cats draped around the place – that makes a house a home. And beautiful artwork and furniture : ) Good luck managing football! Barf : )Not my bag either.
@ Allison: Thank you so much! Why can’t we meet men we are attracted to that have it going on as much upstairs as you! “Your resentment is misdirected. The blame should be directed at this guy, but then you would have to move on from him. Right?” Right. And I’ve known it’s not fair to resent her, but it’s been really easy to. In part too because she’s such a negative person to be around. She’s perfectly nice to people but has a very negative outlook and is a chronic worry wort. I work hard to stay positive, so I try to avoid negative people. I have really had to try to like her, tolerate her. It has not been natural to care about her. My boyfriend is a total Tiggr like me – upbeat, always whistling, singing and laughing. We both bounce when we walk. His mom and my ex are both a couple of Eeyores : )
It’s great she has her own place and she should stay there. Just as we all deserve to have our own home and live independently. (Especially women.) But I guess I have all along been making excuses for him and trying to psychoanalyze him. Hadn’t thought of the excuses part before.. . There have been signs that he is growing with me, and moving forward with me, and he’s so loving and demonstrative and I thought accepting with unconditional love. But this blindside was awful – so much for unconditional love – and sure, some of those topics had come up from time to time, but no intensity like that. I certainly hadn’t seen that side of him – the judging and holding onto resentments and slights. Whew! I thought he was way more evolved than that.
Yes, I suppose going forward, my life might be much better without him and his baggage and way of handling things. But I really did love him. And he is a genuinely good person (well maybe not. . .) And my job as someone who was divorced 28 years ago (!) and who still has cold feet from that, was to allow myself to open to love and loving deeply. Well I guess I did ’cause it hurts so frickin’ much ; )
Thank you so much ladies! I am so grateful I found this wonderful place! And your wonderful support : )
Lydia,
Sweetie, please just focus on what’s important: He is going to stay with his mother, and will always put his family first. This is all you need to know.
You can can psychoanalyze and make excuses till the cows come home – I did the same – but it will not change him or the situation. You need to focus on you and why this situation has been acceptable to you. Please focus on your own unavailability with the people you choose to partner with.
This man is not going to change, as he never did for marriage. He has shown you who he is.
Hugs
The right thing would have been for your ex to leave you and his girlfriend both and work on himself, just as the right thing for my ex would have been to leave me, stop messing with his ex, and work on dealing with his alcoholism.
@ Clovely7, Rosie & Lydia: thank you ladies. It IS about boundaries & respect. She’s not a bad mother, just over-compensating for guilty feelings for the divorce. I just refuse to feel guilty for standing up for myself.
@ Torn: If you read Natalie’s blogs you’ll learn there are 4 elements of a relationship you can’t compromise on: Love, Care, Trust & Respect. If you feel any of those elements are missing, then you’re not being selfish. Hope that helps.
Well an update . . . I’ve just been in agony, but trying to move forward as we all are. I was talking to a friend this past weekend and she said if it’s that important to you, forget email and texting and go see him and have a true respectful goodbye instead of this waiting. You can hope, but don’t expect any change. Go in with your head high, and with respect for yourself and say good bye. And see what happens.
So that sounded good to me because at least it would “close the gap.” It had been 6 weeks since the breakup and 5 weeks since I’d heard from him, 2 since the email. I called him on my cell that day while driving home, and left a vm asking if we could talk, that I’d sent him an email 2 weeks ago – did he get it? but I did say “I don’t know what’s going on.” (Weak girl!)That was Sunday.
On Monday I got a text from him saying “Sorry I missed your call. I’ll check my email tonight.” And I cried buckets for 20 minutes, then texted him back, thanking him for letting me know and I was sorry he had never seen the email, and that I miss him terribly. . . ”
He emailed me that night in response to my original email:
Dear Lydia,
The last thing I ever wanted to do was to hurt you. I was trying to express feelings that I have been dealing with for a very long time.
I was not planning to have that conversation at that moment. But I was suddenly overcome by emotion, as it became clear to me that we will never be of a common mind.
And I don’t want you to explain, defend or justify yourself in reaction to the things I said.
Our relationship has been very special. Your presence in my life has been such a blessing. You filled the emptiness within me, and I had someone to love and care about again. But we both need to recognize that we want to live our lives differently.
It’s time I take the advice I was given a long time ago, and let you go, so that you can find the happiness I cannot provide and that you deserve.
Love,
I couldn’t even feel my legs . . . I called him and we had a tender talk: I asked him who gave him the advice to let me go? “I don’t want to hurt you any more than I have.” Great – so now I wonder who the hell that was! (Mother? Sister? Brother? Could it be my friend I contacted last week?) He said he isn’t good for me, that he can’t help me. We aren’t building a life. I don’t want to continue the way we are. . . . I do love you. I can’t figure out how to make it go forward. It’s been 6 years and we are no closer to building a life together. (I was shocked to hear him say that. I’ve been thinking we are in a holding pattern due to lack of money and flexibility on our living situations, and waiting for him to be the one to ask me to marry him. I’ve almost asked him numerous times, but feel he needs to be the one. I have asked him to spend the rest of his life with me, and that he had said yes to. . . I guess too after all these weeks of having time to think, if he ever asked me to marry him it would meet I am “good enough.” That’s rather sad isn’t it! Yes, that’s a reason I go to therapy!)
He said he’s frustrated and unhappy, that he doesn’t have the means to make it work. He’s been thinking about nothing else for a very long time. He said he wrote the card at my birthday – to the love of my life, etc. and he was thinking how can he make it work at the time. I asked him – do you think you are depressed? Do you think you are looking through a filter? And he said he didn’t think so, that he was sad he was making this decision. “I know I hurt your feelings, it wasn’t my intention to be so hard.” I said it was such a blindside, and that he’d made me “sound like Hitler,” and he said that if you look back there are lots of conversations that just repeat themselves and don’t go anywhere. . .
He has always had this very traditional belief that in order to be married to me, he has to underwrite all our expenses. I’ve told him many times, that just isn’t possible these days and is not his job. And it’s not his job “to make me happy.” That’s my job. I’m thinking he’s still caught up in the money issues. And since I’m not working right now, he might feel even more pressure to provide. He said he misses me too, that there is no one else, and that he still loves me, but he thinks we need to take different paths.
A couple of friends have suggested I take marriage and/or living together off the table, and then maybe I can still enjoy having him in my life. They said, maybe look for a job and/or move closer to him and build my own life there, so we can be closer – even if he can’t leave his mom. I do like Maeve’s idea of keeping my own place as relationships have never worked out for me in the long run. . . I do suspect I would resent the expense when I could be sharing expenses with him but at least I’d have my own place and I could have him over.
I love him so much and he truly is a joy in my life, despite the limitations of his possible commitment issues or mommy love. I’m not having rose colored glasses about how much fun and joy and love we have together. It’s all the other stuff – time alone, money, privacy, his family obsession, etc. that are the problems. We together are wonderful, except for these conflicts. I want to write him a long email about working things out and including ME in the conversation, instead of unilaterally making this decision. I know you will probably tell me I’m short changing myself here, but I can’t imagine meeting a better human being. (Yet, how can he be if he went silent on me for 5 weeks?) It’s taken my whole life to meet him and we have had so much happiness and true love together. This man has walked through some very hard times with me – this is real, not a fairy tale in terms of our connection. I certain “own” my rose colored glasses re a future, or being married, and perhaps how “perfect” he is (!), but not on the fact he’s a good and loving human being. Maybe like Tinkerbell experienced, maybe I could have him in my life in some way, try to forgive and move forward somehow together, live independently, and keep my eye out for something better if he still won’t commit one day? Or is no contact still my only or best option? Sorry for yet another long email, but I’d love your thoughts!
For my follow up email I’m also thinking of suggesting we go away together so we can really talk (and of course have sex : ) If the end result is the same, and we will no longer be together, at least I’ll know this time and can have a beautiful goodbye. I was shocked to know I was being tested all those times, without knowing the consequences of my answers. So when I made a remark I was ruining my chances of happiness? He was evaluating me while not having a real conversation with me – sitting down and discussing our future so I know we are really talking about it. Vs. tossing out a comment like “so how much do you have to contribute to rent?” or “so what are you going to give up (of my possessions) so we can move in together?” – out of the blue questions I didn’t have a ready answer for . . . and so then I’ve ruined my chance at being with him? Without even knowing I was?
My girlfriend said, men do that – testing. And women prefer a true conversation so everything is on the table.
I have been catching up on older posts – have been away etc. I really do get what all of you are saying to me – I hear you and I understand this and know that I have to get to this place – I want to get to this place but there is part of me that still gets engaged in these horrible dynamics where I just want him to “listen” and show any kind of empathy for what I am saying and any insight..any any insight at all. And the other part is that deep deep down I don’t actually think I deserve to leave..that my reasons are not “good enough.” And thirdly lately I have been actually thinking it can/will never get better (even though I am making lots of concrete progress on my future plans). It is like I make progress and then I slip back. And when I do I feel so damned badly about myself.
Lydia, You can’t see it, but he’s told you all you need to know. You are suggesting you can live with a relationship where you do all the work. Go ahead and throw the principle of MUTUAL RESPECT, CARE, LOVE AND **TRUST!!!** out the window. Go ahead and disrespect your self, it’s worth it right, if you can keep him on any terms (his terms)? What he says amounts to him having been emotionally dishonest within your relationship for some time. He has offered to you that you are responsible for HIS decisions regarding leaving your relationship and WORSE you have accepted this. There is no more important time than now to RESPECT YOURSELF. Separate yourself from him, from WHAT HE HAS SAID. If he wants to make it work with you, he WILL compromise. If you do all this bending over backwards for him now, he MAY accept that and you may possibly continue in this relationship on HIS TERMS, but he will NOT RESPECT YOU Lydia which means HE CANNOT LOVE YOU. You will be living in fear for the duration that he may up and leave if you even make a squeak about your needs (if you can still see that you do have them and what they actually are that is). Go that route to pain city if you desire it, or bear the pain now and stay with yourself. Remember what you wrote in earlier posts? I remember how I responded and I repeat it below:
You might say something along these lines:
“look buster, here is the situation. We are now both in a position to move in together as a mature adult couple as we have been anticipating. I am selling my house (whatever it is you are doing right now) and will be renting/buying over the next month. So you can either join me or not, the choice is yours. Please understand that [having my own place] is not negotiable. This is an absolutely necessity to me. I need our relationship to progress to this level. I cannot stay in this relationship if we do not progress now that all extraneous circumstances have been resolved”. Lydia, IMO *leave verbalising opinions re his mother out of it* if you decide to go this route. Don’t get embroiled in his issues here, it’s just not worth it and he’s going to be defensive no matter what and will be happy to drag you in there so he can feel justified in not fleeing the nest and becoming a real man. As others have said and you yourself suggest, it seems he has been consistently immature in this area and appears to be pathologically resistant to self reflecting on the problem.”
For f**ks sake Lydia, give him back what is his, he is putting this all on you and you are accepting it!! Say it how it is and walk away so he has to own his own decisions and emotional stuntedness, or pursue him and enter a world of pain for however long it take before he leaves you again, or until you are a shell with no needs of your own.
“He has offered to you that you are responsible for HIS decisions regarding leaving your relationship”
Lydia, actually on re-reading your account of your phone conversation with him and the email he sent, I don’t see how my assertion (above) does apply, at least in that context. What appears to have happened is that he did not sit down with you and put his issues on the table but says he’s stewed for months and then reached his decision. Within an ideal emotionally healthy you, you would be very angry about that. But here you are thinking to yourself that you ‘coulda, woulda, shoulda,’and he would never have got it into his head to leave you. Sure, you should’ve walked on egg shells and read his mind right? Cos it’s normal for men to test women right? Especially when you are supposedly in a mutual relationship of trust, care and respect and love, correct? Nice friends you have there, encouraging you to keep going with the insanity of what hasn’t worked in the past.
He has been deceptive in this yes, but you have also deceived yourself it seems by letting go the blow ups, the staying over in mum’s house, the no time alone, the one sided the commute. Alison, IMO, is also dead right about how this at least partially suited you because of your inability and/or unwillingness to find a solution to having him at your place which you shared with your ex. Gosh, just goes to show that time will always reveal that we can never have our cake and eat it too by avoiding dealing with toxic situations. Eventually they are going to come back and bite us in the bottom.
“out of the blue questions I didn’t have a ready answer for . . . and so then I’ve ruined my chance at being with him? Without even knowing I was?”
No, it’s the other way round, he’s ruined his chances of being with you in a mutual co-piloted relationship.Give that thought to him, it doesn’t belong to you. You’re getting the two of you mixed up. Think of two people, each with a kind of invisible but bounded space around them that is always there, like a force field in a science fiction movie. Now think of yourself stepping through his space/field and standing right next to him. IMO that’s where you’re standing right now….all he has to do is stay still, he’s not stepping through your space/field too and into mutuality because either he can’t, he won’t or he knows he doesn’t have to.
Dear lizzp, thank you so very much! You’ve given me so many good things to think about and I really appreciate your healthy perspective. I’m sorry I didn’t post earlier, it’s been an emotional chaotic time. I was going to write him again, and I’ve been making so many notes with all these good powerful points, but for some reason I wasn’t sitting down to write the actual “compilation” email. On Sunday, I left a message for our mutual friend to check in. I was pretty anguished – again. My emotions are so raw and this is ridiculous as it’s now 7 weeks? Anyhow, he sent me a text and he is spending time with my boyfriend, being a supportive friend, and therefore thinks it’s best he doesn’t talk to me right now. That made me feel so much better, because his friend is an emotionally healthy lovely man who has pursued love for himself and knows how hard it can be. He personally just got married and values relationships above all else. So if anyone can point out what true deal breakers are, and what healthy behavior is, and what is important here, or even talk about personal things with my boyfriend in a positive, proactive healthy way, it is this man. I will try and move on and let go to the outcome. I don’t get to know what they talk about, but if there is to be any hope, there is now. Maybe my boyfriend will actually do some work on himself and pony up and be willing to go to counseling with me. It’s a long shot but at least now there is a chance; without me being directly involved. It’s weird not sending that email, but I’ve already told him I want him to do counseling with me and not throw this away. He already knows how I feel and how much he hurt me and how rare I feel this relationship is. So I will practice NC and see what happens. Maybe I’ll hear from him and maybe I never will. But I do feel better now. . . Thank you so very much for all of your support! It’s been a huge comfort and will continue to be.
Well, I’m sitting here alone on Thanksgiving, but I don’t feel badly because it was my choice. My sister and I were supposed to go to dinner at the home of her old college friend. My sister, who is currently on pins and needles as she is embroiled in selling her multi-million dollar house, has been very uptight and undecided about what dish she will prepare and bring to the dinner. Her friend, for some reason felt the need to call me complaining about my sister’s anxiety and how she didn’t need to engage in 50 emails back and forth about what she was going to cook. It put me in an weird situation as she was talking about my sister and I’m not involved in their relationship in any way shape or form. Plus, this woman swore me to secrecy not to tell my sister that she had called me on the phone complaining about her. A day or so later, my sister phoned me saying that she did not want to go to the dinner, that she and her friend have always had a strained relationship, and she did not feel that there was any support or understanding shown and she felt unwelcome to attend. She asked me how I felt about going to the dinner and if it was something I was particularly looking forward to. I told my sister that it was not that important to me and I’d go along with her in whatever she wanted to do. At that point, I told my sister that I was not going to divulge the info but since she was very much on the fence about whether to go to the dinner, I might be able to help her decide. So I told her about her friend’s phone call to me. My sister decided upon hearing what I said, that she was not going so therefore, neither of us would be attending. The very next morning my sis emails me that she and her friend had a long talk, cleared the air and she told her she would be coming. When my sis asked if I would go I said, “No”. I told my sister that I would feel uncomfortable since her friend brought me into their conflict and that she disrespected my sister in doing so. Furthermore, after telling my sister the truth and she emailed her friend retracting our attendance at the dinner, the friend phoned me, again, on the pretense of making sure she had my sister’s correct phone number. My sister has had the same number for ages. She obviously wanted to find out from me why we were not coming and generally what I had to say about this development. I refused to call the friend back because I didn’t want to discuss anything and get myself more involved in the dispute between her and my sister.
Bottom line. My sister is going to the dinner and I’m at home by myself. During a lengthy discussion with my sis, I told her that her friend was wrong to call me and gossip behind her back, that it was a sign of lacking respect for her and that I didn’t want to have anything to do with the whole thing. The reason this incident relates to this post is because I was trying to get my sister to do the “right thing” for herself by staying home and if she wasn’t going to do so, I was not going to be blinded from the real deal and compromise my values to attend. When I told my sister that she was being a “wuss” and not commanding respect, she told me that she is a person who is loyal to a fault. I’ve seen her compromise her self respect with another college buddy who treated her appallingly. My sister says, “Well, we’ve been friends for 40 years”. My sister is unable to discard a so-called friend who has treated her badly because they are all in this college click and she doesn’t want to make any waves, or possibly be judged negatively by the others. In my relationships I don’t have that issue. My friends are MY friends, and even though they know of each other, they don’t have a relationship with them. I’m glad for that because I would not want to be in the position of going against my own self respect for the good of the GROUP. And, I wouldn’t do it anyway. I don’t have friends like that, thank goodness.
My sister has always been the stronger one and advised me on my relationships and interacts with others. She told me that she can see that we’ve switched places. Now, I am the stronger, loving myself more person, than she is. But being this way comes with a price. I’m alone. Petie is still recuperating from surgery. Oddly enough, I don’t even feel badly or sorry to be alone on this holiday. I have food to eat, plenty of it, and have no problem entertaining myself. Most of all I’m thankful for the blessings bestowed upon me.
Tink,
First of all, Happy Thanksgiving!!!
I’m sorry, that this has happened. The friend, never should of brought you into this situation, but I am also questioning your sister’s loyalty to you. Why could you not have spent it together? She was is the wrong!
Family can be a pain in the ass at times!!!!!!
Allison,
Thanks. I had a restful day. No complaints. My sister and I didn’t get together because I live in Jersey and she’s in Brooklyn, and neither of us had what we would consider Thanksgiving dinner, plus she would have had to get to be by public trans since her car is in the shop. But, I agree as far as her loyalty to ME mentally it was lacking. Then she tried to convince me that I “just don’t understand their friendship and it’s been 40 years.” I told her, “Okay so when you find out she’s been plotting to have you killed, are you going to say “It’s okay. We’ve been friends for 40 years.” She had no reply.
With friends like that I don’t need any enemies. My sister should have been more supportive of me. After all, I was acting in defense of HER. I could have had the attitude, “Well, if it’s okay with you it’s okay with me and gone to the dinner. But it was not okay with me, on principle! Thanks, Allison.
Dear Tinkerbell & Allison,
Good for you! More on calling speaking up: since I didn’t have to deal with my boyfriend and his mom vs. MY mom this year, I tried to organize Thanksgiving with MY family. I haven’t shared Thanksgiving with them for years. Since my mom is 87 she wanted me to host it, which I did reluctantly as my estranged brother and his messed up older son and delightful younger son would be attending. My brother has never even known where I live for the past 13 years. BUT since my mom is 87 years old, I wanted to give her a great Thanksgiving with her family. So I cleaned and cooked, and even without my professional chef boyfriend looking over my shoulder, I did a bang up job and made a beautiful dinner from scratch. My brother decided to show up 1 1/2 hours late and then picked a fight with his oldest son at the table : ) but I wasn’t going to let that ruin my day. I thought, “well millions of families are having this experience right now!” But later after my very happy Mom left to go home, the boys and I hung out and talked, and the conversation got quite racist which really bothered me. I spoke up and called them on their behavior which is good. And while it probably won’t change who they all are, it let them know how I view the world and love ALL people. So Thanksgiving was a bit DRAMATIC but okay. (and I will never invite my brother again . . .!)
So all was okay. I had achieved my goal of giving my Mom a great day, and I had survived the family. Unfortunately I made the mistake last night of saying too much about it to my “up to that point” happy Mom! I told her about their conversation, and how racist my oldest nephew is and what I did, (suggesting he might get along better in life if he looked at his attitudes and spoke better of other people and was more inclusive) and then she jumped all over ME accusing me of being judgmental and criticizing her beloved grandchild! So of course I never should have said anything to her. And she is so crazy that she now has another reason to be mad at me. And what’s even crazier, is she did not raise me to be that way – she illustrated travel and acceptance and love of all peoples and religions, but she says it’s not my place to speak up! I feel that if you don’t speak up, you allow the abuse to continue. (She also went on to bring up my boyfriend’s egregious behavior and call it “criticism” and said “well you know how that made YOU feel!” Nice! . . . I much prefer “family of choice!”
So Happy Thanksgiving! And good for you speaking up to your sister, and letting her see there is another way to view and handle things in life.
This makes me feel better about my ex boyfriend. He didn’t treat me that well at times, although I don’t have hatred towards him. He broke up with me last week and then text me yesterday asking to meet up. I reluctantly agreed. When I saw him, I told him I would like to be friends but that he really hurt me.
And it’s like he didn’t really hear what I was saying. We hugged goodbye and that was that but he does anything to escape serious topics of conversation. I text him the next day saying I could be a good friend to him as long as I felt like he understood how he hurt me. We had a pregnancy scare earlier in the relationship and I text him for comfort saying, “I am scared”….and he did not reply. Just feels like he runs from things, doesn’t take account of my feelings at all.
Have I done something wrong?
Dear Lucy,
You have done absolutely nothing wrong. You were honest with him about how he hurt you and he pretended (?) not to hear you. Or perhaps he just can’t acknowledge that is true. There are far wiser folks on these boards than me, but you stood up for yourself and called him on his behavior in a respectful way. There is nothing wrong with that, in fact it was the right thing to do!
I’m so sorry you didn’t get the support you needed when you were worried about being pregnant. It sounds like he cannot really be there for you when it comes to serious things/real life. You are making me think about my own ex too . . . some people, even if well intentioned, might not be equipped to be real with you. And some people just don’t want to be. I don’t know what the truth is here . . . but you have handled yourself admirably!
I have been reading this site for a couple of months now, but have never commented. This post seemed like the perfect place, and I hope someone out there sees this. I only have one real life friend that knows my situation, so I’m looking for objective input from those who have been in similar situations to mine.
I will spare most of the details of what all has been said between the two of us because this tale really boils down to some basic information.
Four months ago, I left my job. The night I resigned, I slept with my (former boss). We were (are) both married. I knew there were feelings there but they’d never been talked about or acted on until then. Realizing that I was able to do something like this was the nail in my (already failing) marriage’s coffin, and a few weeks later I told my husband I thought we should separate. He agreed, kindly, because like I said the issues had been there for years. I also feel he deserves so much more than a cheat like me. We are both in individual counseling currently.
The affair continued on, casual at first yet very intense (aren’t they all). I broke it off once out of frustration and guilt, but went back. That was October 1st. I told him that I wouldn’t do this forever, that I deserved a starring role, and it was “all or nothing”. He is in an unhappy marriage (truly, not just saying that) but has stayed because he feels (felt) that it was the right thing for his daughter. I don’t 100% buy that that is the only reason, but whatever. However, he has said this entire time that for the first time ever he was truly considering leaving his wife, but felt very torn about his daughter. I realize this is a typical “excuse”
After the first break up, I set a deadline for ending this situation in my mind. He talked about the future, says he sees me as a part of his future, doesn’t know what he’d do without me, etc. Words mean nothing to me. Action means everything. I don’t believe in ultimatums, but I had internally decided on a date when I would no longer continue this emotional roller coaster and I would then walk away and initiate NC. Right before Thanksgiving, while on a video chat, *HE* said that “we couldn’t keep going on like this” and that “I deserved more” and he wanted 30 days to make a decision on what he was going to do once and for all. He does know that if he chooses to stay with his wife that I am gone…and he knows I’m serious (or at least says he knows I’m serious).
I truly believe that he loves and cares about me deeply. I also think that despite the lies and shadiness that he is, at the core, a good man because he knows that I am *GONE* if he decides to stay and he is willing to “give me up” and let me move on with my life even though I am a great benefit to him…not just for the obvious reasons, but I am his sounding board for business and life decisions. In short, he invests emotionally in me the way he SHOULD be with his wife (yes, I have told him that). He says he has no interest in working on / improving his marriage and if he stays it is only for his daughter. I said you must love your wife on some level if you have stayed for this long and he said he did love her in that he felt an obligation to provide for her and the daughter but did not feel any genuine emotional attachment to her. Again, not saying I buy all of this, just telling you all what was said.
So, the 30 days started Dec 1st. The “rules” are no in person visits, no discussions or declarations about how we feel about each other, and certainly NO SEX. The point of this time is for him to have the mental space and physical distance from me to think clearly about his situation and what he wants to do. I realize that in this time I also have the power to walk away. To be honest, I do not think I will do that until and if I hear him say he is not leaving his wife. But, I am 100% prepared to do that even though it will hurt like HELL because I simply cannot keep going on like I have been for the last 4 months. And even if that is the outcome I will be grateful that I *only* spent 5 total months of my life like this. I can’t believe some women are able to do this for years. I would have a mental breakdown.
He did sort of break one of the rules for December today. He said that he is taking the Jan 1st deadline seriously and knows how serious I am about it and “for lack of better terms” is weighing the pros and cons of both sides. That sounded so awful to me but in my next breath he said, not literally like pros and cons…much deeper than that but I don’t know what else to call it. I didn’t say much, just that I was glad to hear he took his self-imposed deadline seriously.
So, that’s the gist of my tale. I would really love to here some honest, no bullshit commentary. Thank you in advance.
Update . . . after much agony I decided to drop in on him at his job yesterday. (There’s no way I was going to go by their house!!!) My ruse was to drop off his Christmas gift I had bought last summer, my goal to remind him of what he is missing. I literally had a script to follow – do men even go to any effort compared to us women? Do they even think about this stuff? Anyhow, I was on my way to “the big city to meet girlfriends” and wanted to drop off his book I’d bought months before. That’s my story! I looked fabulous and I was able to keep it together even though I was really upset, and hopefully he couldn’t see it. (Well, my voice caught a few times . . !) He seemed surprised to see me, but pleased. He showed me around his office (I’d never been there before) and seemed to be extending the visit. He offered coffee and to have me sit down, but I stuck to my breezy script. When I was leaving he gave me a hug and I hugged him tightly and said he smelled nice. . . He asked me about Thanksgiving and I was able to drop that the house was all cleaned up and I’d cooked the full dinner, etc. by myself (showoff). Then he asked about Christmas and I tried to sound light, but I also said, “I’m not in the mood.” (That was horrible – I just wanted to burst into tears.) I was on my way out the door and he was behind me, wishing me Merry Christmas and I just kept moving, then choked out “to you too” or something as I went out the door.
I had written a carefully worded letter and had that in the gift bag too. In the letter I told him how much I loved him and that I’d thought we’d be together the rest of our lives. I reminded him of our special connection without lecturing him about it . . . and told him I needed him to tell him what his issues are and his needs are without exploding. That I cannot read his mind (which he thinks I should be able to!), etc. I did not pressure him to go to counseling or anything else yet – I’m just trying to get him to talk first. He already has heard that from me. I said that I would not be seeing him again unless he chose to see me. This is poorly written, but you get the drift.
I hope he will “wake up” and realize what he is throwing away. (Good God it’s been almost 2 1/2 months already!) I know he has acted out badly a few times in the past, and obviously isn’t great at communicating. But there is good working material here – he is a wonderful man and I am still so much in love with him. So it’s worth a shot. Nothing may come of this, but at least I said my piece (well a very edited part of it ; ). By seeing me again, maybe that will trigger desire and love – enough to bother to move forward no matter how uncomfortable it may be for him and for me. And he might just stay stuck and we are completely . . .
So that’s what I did. I wanted to stick to no contact, but I had to try. And now I’ll go back to no contact again, unless he reaches out to me. And if he’s not willing to do counseling together to work this out, that’s a deal breaker. I’m not going to let him act like nothing happened, but I don’t think he would. He’s aware how much he hurt me. But right now – there is no communication, so I am trying to gently get him to do that.
UGH! I wish I didn’t care. I wish I could just move on, but I have never loved someone this much. I didn’t know I was capable of it! So, at the risk of humiliation I did it. I keep having ironic thoughts – as I told you his father abandoned the family when he was 11. I was thinking – so is that what you learned from your dad? To burst out your thoughts, fight, then leave and not work anything out? Great role model!
We’ll see what – if anything -happens! Maybe in 6 months . . . 2 years, 10 years. . .
Hi everyone,
It gives me so much comfort reading these boards and learning from all of you. I am still reeling from the break up. I didn’t want to call it that but for God’s sake it’s been almost 3 1/2 months now . . .
I “won” my goal of making him realize/remember/acknowledge he still loves me by my visit before Christmas. On New Year’s Eve I received a letter from him telling me that I looked absolutely beautiful and it was wonderful to hold me that day. (He’d given me that quick hug.) He thanked me for the “beautiful book reminiscent of his trip to Italy” last spring (totally missing the point I’d bought it for the two of us to make the recipes together in our own home – oblivious jerk!), and went on to say: he loves me and thinks of me every night when he gets home from work, and “tucks me in at night” in his mind. He anticipates every time the phone rings it’s me, etc. But then he says ” I strongly believe that we are not right together,” and wishes me all the love in the world. UGH.
I ran into him and his mom the next day at the ocean where I had gone to do affirmations and try and start my New Year off in a good way. I had kind of hoped to run into him and yet did not want to. I knew there was a chance I would as he habitually goes to that same place. But I was there later in the day and thought I would have missed them. They showed up just as I was leaving and walking back to my car.
He hugged and kissed me (on the lips of course) and I gave that awful woman! a hug and kiss too and wished them Happy New Year. I was ebullient and breezy and friendly. She then said it was cold so she got in the car. I wondered if she was giving us privacy but later my therapist said “oh no! She doesn’t approve of the relationship and by getting in the car she shows that she has won. That he has to return to her. And he will be conflicted talking to you because she is waiting for him in the car.” We talked of nothing important but then I was able to tell him about my friend who died suddenly and my other friend who has a paralyzing stroke – both terrible things have happened since our break up and he didn’t know. And my point of telling him is to remind him to get on with his life! And hopefully OUR life. He said, “do you have any other good news for me?” And I said, “Priorities! Priorities!” I had left these sad stories and my point out of the email and my letter.
After I took off – off to have MY day! And see the elephant seals and enjoy MY TIME. He gave me another quick hug and kiss when I left and I patted his ass on my way out. (I laughed about this later – it was such a familiar move and so casual.) I saw their car drive back towards the city (!) when I left the parking lot. I told my therapist about it the next day, and he said “You won. You ruined their “romantic day.” Someone said, when he got back in the car “let’s go home.” That made me laugh so hard. What a pathetic person he is. His life has gotten so incredibly narrow and predictable. It’s just sickening. . .
A few weeks later, he emailed me that a photograph of me was in the newspaper. I looked and there was a photograph highlighting a local business, with people out in front. And one of the women looked quite a bit like me (but wasn’t – I’ve never been there.) And I thought how odd . . . He doesn’t reach out to me for months, and THIS is what he writes to me about? But I have also still been convulsed with pain and sadness. I’m still raw and torn up and have no understanding/definition/compartmentalization of what happened. I still feel just as blindsided as I did that first week, and still so terribly sad. I broke my NC additionally in early January – an additional bummer since I had “won” in my two encounters. I was crying so badly one night, that I tried calling him. And when he didn’t answer (it was almost midnight) I texted him: “I’m still in so much pain. I don’t understand how you could just throw our love away and not work it out. I miss you so much.” Damn . . . so much for strong independent NC woman!
I keep muddling through. I’ll be in his town this Saturday for a concert at a restaurant, and I thought of emailing him I would be there (and look smokin’ hot) . . . but I’m trying to be strong, and I invited friends to go with me. And they would probably feel really weird if he showed up too, so that helps me not do it. A friend told me last night that he is not bringing ANYTHING POSITIVE into my life right now, and until he does and shows up and is positive and working on a healthy relationship with me, do not contact him. Another friend posted a poster on Fb that says: ” What you allow is what will continue” The timing was good, and it’s helping me with NC.
I wish I felt better. I wish I felt stronger. But I AM sick and tired of feeling bad, and I cannot literally afford to keep being depressed and not look for work, etc. So I keep muddling through and trying to move forward as best I can each day. And maybe it will get better. Some days I am doing a bit better, and last week I was sick so that really took my mind off him for a bit, but last night I was pretty raw once again. I just still can’t understand how someone could do that to someone they love. Be so cruel and end a 6 1/2 year happy, loving relationship like that – in the space of an hour! Such a blindside. And who talks like that or loses it so much? Wouldn’t you catch yourself after 5 minutes and say you are sorry and stop yourself? Then you could still stand up for yourself if that’s your truth and talk in a more calm manner. But to carry on, full tilt, with a sh** list for an hour, overwhelming and hurting your girlfriend? I just can’t understand it . . . I have so many theories about why this is happening, but he’s not there to tell me. And I really hate this no communication from him, and not telling me the truth of what’s going on . Another girlfriend asked me last night – after all this time, does it really matter? And I said, absolutely the truth matters. And yes, maybe he has no maturity to see what the truth is, or can’t face it, but I want to know. And the mother is most assuredly aware of what she is doing, confirmed by her actions New Year’s Day. She is no innocent, and he is not acknowledging that to himself most likely. It’s a effing mess and God Help Me for being caught up in it.