I talk to so many people who feel frustrated by the fact that they see the truth but others don’t or choose not to, because it feels as if the truth isn’t the truth unless everybody agrees to it. It’s as if they’re not allowed to have their own perspective. In reality, our perspective is our own perspective based on our own experiences, outlook, beliefs, values, assumptions, education, fears, experienced etc., and theirs is theirs.
It’s critical to have an authentic relationship with ourselves and to be able to distinguish between ‘image’ versus reality. We don’t need to be BS vigilantes leaving no BS stone unturned. It’s most important for us to know what we know.
A couple of years ago, I attended a funeral. After the service, despite staying in the background, people kept coming over and asking who I was. I told them that he was my mother’s father and then they were falling over themselves to talk about me being his granddaughter and basically rewriting history on the spot. I didn’t feel away about it but I also didn’t need to feed it either so when the many people who expressed surprise at my existence expressed their condolences, I thanked them but also said that I didn’t really know him. Actually, I didn’t know him at all.
The funny thing is that this experience helped me to realise that a lot of the reason why we cosign on to untruths is because 1) we think the truth is “not very nice” and feel guilty or bad about it, and/or 2) to make others more comfortable. What this has the unfortunate side effect of, is shaming us about the truth.
Within families in particular, there can be codes of silence and lies, where a family will clan together and refuse to admit the existence of the truth of certain events. After a while, they believe the lies and in fact, the lies are no longer lies to them because they’re all singing from the same hymn sheet. What happens if we deviate from it? We’re frozen out, ostracised, or even called a liar and shamed, and this in itself can be incentive enough to tow the line.
We can feel as if we’re being penalised for being honest or we struggle to fathom why everyone would want to go along with the lie.
‘But it’s a lie! They know it is! They should want to tell the truth!’
We can’t handle the lie so why can they?
Unless we’re going to play along, we are a threat. If we know that we would not be able to remain silent, we have no choice but to leave them to their devices or step back, because the alternative – riding their arses like Zorro to see things our way – is a painful vocation that’s better left alone.
It’s one thing when someone’s receptive to the truth; it’s another when we’re trying to reprogram a group of people so that we can feel OK about what we know. This is especially frustrating when we hold ourselves back from processing our truth and moving our life forward because we’re waiting for their permission. We can handle what we know and work through coming to terms with it whether we gain their agreement or not.
We’re more powerful living our truth than we are denying our truth while we either try to keep the peace in the herd, or we attempt to find yet another way of getting them to see things from our perspective.
Granted, we’ll have the added hurt and grief that comes from their unwillingness to recognise the truth and the loss we experience as a result, but the pain recedes when we stop invalidating our own feelings in response to their behaviour. We grieve, we get more balanced, and we align ourselves with people and opportunities where we can live more honestly without forcing things.
Denial is a very powerful. We can’t make people say something and force them to stand alongside our truth. It would be nice if they did, as it can be a way of showing loyalty and support but if they don’t, it’s not about us; it’s about their own relationship with themselves and the truth and whether they could handle it.
They’re coming from a different level of awareness to us.
It’s a distraction from living if we try to clobber people into seeing things our way. It’s not that these people couldn’t do with making their own changes but there comes a point when we have to ask, Why are we trying to make others change when we could be getting on with the business of living?
We want them to adapt and change their own feelings and behaviour so that we can feel better. We can do that without them. Really.
We want them to side with and validate us as we may decide that we’re “wrong” and a “loser” if they don’t. We forget that some of these people may be too afraid of negative consequences and some of them don’t want to be aware of the truth never mind know it or do anything about it.
When we admit one truth attached to the lie, it can come down like a house of cards. That’s just too much for some people. They’ve developed their coping mechanism and even if they’re unhappy, the uncomfortable comfort zone for them is a more attractive alternative to the unknown.
It’s easy to fall into the trap of personalising things to the degree of telling ourselves that if we were more ________ or less ______, or “the favoured one” or whatever, that they’d cosign to our truth but this is a falsehood. We’re feeding us with the lie that is this idea that we can influence and control their feelings and behaviour by being pleasing but us doing this won’t change whether they want to have that level of awareness, accountability, and responsibility. This ‘pleasing’ can be the source of a great deal of pain if we’ve been The Good Girl or The Good Guy for a long time and suppressed and repressed our true feelings, opinions, needs, expectations, and desires, because on some level we feel that we’ve accrued some credits. When they won’t see things from our perspective or admit the truth and we’ve done all of those things which may include turning a blind eye and not having boundaries, it’s like, After everything I’ve done for you and you can’t even throw me a truth bone? And then we wonder what’s wrong with us. That’s how we draw out feeling bad about what they’ve done because we persecute ourselves with negative self-talk.
We hold ourselves hostage to the situation and we keep looking to them for closure and as a result, we keep the wound open by remaining open to some of the things that they do that cause us pain.
In the end, we come to realise that it is us who is going to have to positively adapt and change our own feelings and behaviour so that we stop trying to influence them and we instead take command of us. We change our response to them so that we stop being reliant on their acknowledgement or agreement and at the same time, remove their power over us.
If they don’t want to say something or take action, that’s their prerogative. We know where we stand and it’s not on the same page. We know that we have to adjust our expectations of this person and do our own work to support our knowledge of the truth. What they can’t do is attempt to hold us hostage to their version of events and expect us to accept less than love, care, trust and respect so that they don’t feel any discomfort.
The truth is the truth even if others choose to see it differently.
Your thoughts?
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Nat-
A more complex post than usual, I hsd to read it twice… It’s as good as always though.
“We can’t force people to see what they don’t want to see. Denial is a very powerful device” This really stood out for me.
The MM didn’t want to see that having sex outside his marriage or the long emotional affair with the Other OW was disloyal to his wife and children. nothing he said or did suggested he did (apart from, I think, feel guilty about sleeping with me in relation to the Other Woman, but no, not guilty about his wife) he’d justify our sex and tell me his justifications as a constant topic of conversation(it almkst got boring!)
Once people (men or women) decide they don’t want to see something, it’s more thsn just convenience, it’s like it becomes what they believe.
That’s why so many of us fail at trying to make that person see things differently. Their mind is just not open to it. Ironically us all just being on this site shows we are the total opposite. It indicates how we all are so open to change, others’ views opinions and advice.
I agree, ICBIFT. We come here with open minds, ready to listen to other views, and advice. I never thought about that fact, before. And even though we come here feeling badly because we haven’t been valued or worse, we have to realize that just by coming here and telling our stories and reading others and commenting makes us a helluva lot more balanced and smarter that many, many people in this world. At least we are trying. We are here striving to be the best we can be toward ourselves primarily, but also toward others. If we think we have nothing else to be proud of we can at least be proud of that.
As always Nat….you know how to convey information that will help people to understand family/people dynamics, which will help them move on. Sometimes a person just isn’t gonna validate your position, or feelings. I have read most of your posts. You have a special talent for conveying healthy psychological points in an easy to understand manner. You are just the greatest.
Thank you for your blog! It has been a life saver! I just set someone straight on the truth today and it felt so good! And I thought to myself I am really getting healthy, and your blog has helped so much in backing me up. It feels great not to be supporting someone in their lie in order to not make waves. It feels great to tell my truth and know I mean it, and not second guess myself!
When I found out that the man I had had a relationship for almost 2 years was married and all that time I was lied to that he was single and wanted us to have a happy life together, first thing I wanted to do is to talk to him and ask why did he do that. I wanted to ask him, why would he do that to his wife? How could he live double life and be in peace with himself?
I am glad I didn’t ask him about anything, because there would be no honest answers from this type of man anyway. It is very difficult, but I sit on my hands, when I feel like talking to him and getting the truth.
Natalie said it many times, that we need to pay attention to their actions, not to their words.
I was in the same situation as you, with a guy for 2 years and then found he was married with kids. Hurt so much!! In my case though i asked him why he did it, never got an honest answer..just some crap about him being scared that if he told the truth i would not have been in the relationship with him…selfish b……. But i learnt my lesson, starting a relationship from long distance is certainly not the best – i realise now that he was able to keep the truth , a large part because i was not around him. I also learnt a couple more things that have helped me to find a more suitable partner…wishing you the best as well, and remember the most important thing is to keep learning from our experiences….
This is a good read Nat as usual!
Timely as well. I have been coming into the lesson of the importance of alignment and being selective of who I hook my wagon onto so to speak. Even being careful of what conversations I allow myself to be around. Its like I never left high school. There is a such thing as an adult ‘wrong crowd’ or adult ‘bad apple’… like in high school. I learned that the hard way. I learned that I cant straddle the fence when it comes to engaging people who lack integrity in general and definitely men who lack in in particular. Almost always I would first notice what was to come by the way they would throw people who they should be protecting (long time friends, wives, ex’s, siblings) under the bus in a heart beat. Now when I see that I run as I know this is the type of person who will do anything to achieve whatever their agenda is at the moment….and they will be throwing me under the bus sooner rather than later. These types wont let what is right, true, fair, moral, reality, or rational stop them from getting their way. And it is truly disturbing how they will literally try to alter reality (David Koresh style) to get their way. Selfishness to the extreme! I have walked away from people because they were literally trying to brainwash me. I found that these people are well aware of the truth, but the truth don’t serve them as it levels the playing field so to speak, and gave me choice. The didn’t want me to have choice, they wanted to have control which is all lying boils down to.
I am committing to alignment with the right people vs. trying to get the wrong people to ‘see me and realize how good I am’. This goes for men and dating as well. I am working on cementing the fact that people are who they are already. It is not my place or job to change a man, especially if he didn’t ask me to ‘fix’ him. As people, we all do what we do, no matter how fucked up it is, because IT WORKS FOR US. In some way shape or form, it suits us. Same with men. Whatever any given man is doing, he is doing it because it works for him. It works to his advantage to him. Its that simple. My only job is to delineate what does and doesn’t work for me because I am the only one I can control, the only one I want to control, and the only one that I am responsible for.
ljsrmissy,
You are so right! I remember arguing with the ex-eum about how it is not neccessary to hurt people to get what you want, he was deadset that if it means making yourself happy then it okay because people get hurt? I tried my hardest to make him see how wrong this was and I was just preaching to the choir. Boy I should have listened because he sure used that same mindset when it came to dealing with me!
I realized later on that our value systems were so different that it was bound to fail. It was funny because he carried that same mindset into his next relationship and I am apt to believe that the person he was seeing probably had the same mindset. That’s probably why they got along so well!
Right on, Ljsrmissy. I could not agree more!
I want to add that another thing that helps me with situations like these is to know that this is a person who is here for their own self serving motives. They are not here for a friendship, relationship, or any other kind of ship. There is no ‘us’ or ‘we’ it is him or her looking to get over on me. Otherwise they wouldn’t be doing the above.
This was so eloquently put, ljsrmissy. Esp. this “these people are well aware of the truth, but the truth don’t serve them as it levels the playing field so to speak, and gave me choice. The didn’t want me to have choice, they wanted to have control which is all lying boils down to”. And about accepting that people don’t change and that no matter what they do (and in my experience, men would often tell me how ‘confused’ or ‘in pain’ they were but continued the same behavior that ‘confused’ and ‘hurt’ them and me. In the end I realized that I was the only one who was truly getting hurt (vs talking about it) and got out. But with new people it takes so much self-discipline and self-awareness. Just to see them AS THEY ARE. Funny how not doing anything (not concocting fantasies or justifying) and just BEING AN OBSERVER is the hardest thing to do. I hope I will at some point get to a place where this kind of tactic (just observing people as they act) gets automatic and easier.
My remaining family consists of two older siblings. Neither can bear to talk about bad family history. They cut me off if I try to talk about anything specific. They rarely talk about their own feelings, much less mine. But see, I worked like a dog to resolve all my childhood issues that emotionally crippled me as an adult. My childhood was different than theirs because I was so much younger and had to live with my nutty psrents as a virtual only child.
Over the holidays, I went to my brother’s home for a 24 hour visit. After he refused to listen to me explain why my sister is on my NC list until further notice, I finally said, “If you just let me make a one or two minute statement without cutting me off, you will understand why I feel this way and I won’t need to repeat it.” He’s a scientist, so once I gave him “the formula” he agreed to hear me out. Once he did, a lightbulb went on over his head, and he starting saying stuff like, “Oh– now I see why x happened and how that influenced z which turned into x+y/z.” For the first time, he and I had a deep conversation where we swapped family horror stories and ended up laughing our asses off, agreeing that we were “raised by wolves.”
After I told him why my assclown sister was on my NC list, I told him to brace himself because with me gone she would turn to him next as her whipping boy. He chuckled and said, “Nahh,she won’t do that to me. I’m the big brother.”
Of course he called recently and told me my prediction had come true. (Duh!) We started laughing because finally we could admit to each other that she was a total pain in the ass. Now he calls all the time wanting to reminisce about our lunatic parents and our evil sister’s latest snit fit.
I didn’t ask him to change, I just told him the formula for shutting me up. Like “Icantbelieve” said, we can’t force people to see what they don’t want to see (or hear). But we can try different approaches and maybe find a good one. 🙂
Thanks for a great post, Natalie.
Karen, when family is involved the sort of validation you receive is so powerful. Sure we dont need them to see the truth exactly as we see, and as you said you had a different childhood experience than them, but at least the acknowledgement that you have a right to raise boundaries is therapeutic. It takes strength and effort to overcome the childhood traumas. This last bit of interfamily validation is like a cherry on top. I unfortunately did not experience such validation. As time passed I accepted that and did not compromise on my boundaries. My mother is an emotional sadist who played us all 3 sisters against each other during growing up to adulthood. My older sister turned out worse than her and gets away with terrible behavior, only against me for some reason, because she provides mother the narcissistic supply she needs. Mother pitted me and younger sister against each other now she is no contact with me. I dont push her to see my truths on her since I find it futile. We are in a funny situation as I am no contact with older sister and extremely happy that I never have to see or talk to her again unless its absolutely necessary. I continue once a month phone conversation with parents out of obligation with my guard up the whole time. I wish I had the support of a sibling acknowledging the emotional/sexual/physical abuse that took place and if I had allowed it would continue as psychological abuse now(because I moved far far away). The weird thing is I am the healthiest in the family mostly I think because I escaped. The childhood problems when umresolved truly make you sick. Mother is on antidepressant/anxiety meds since she gets fewer supply now that she is not the center of her childrens lives as much as she desires. Older sister still deals with an eating disorder, perpatuates the same dysfunction in her young daughter and is envious of people who are happy. Younger sister is also on antidepressants in addition to complex somatoform disorders that are not getting better. Perhaps if they could work through the childhood issues they would get better I do not know. I am glad to hear you did well for yourself and your brother also recognized the pattern. Do not give in to requests to eliminate your boundaries unless you see real remorse/apology/committment to change destructive behaviors.
“We hold ourselves hostage to the situation and we keep looking to them for closure and as a result, we keep the wound open by remaining open to some of the things that they do that cause us pain.”
That is such a powerful truth.. It’s something I’ve been doing. Holding myself hostage to a situation I cannot change. Its hard for me to let go.. For months I’ve gotten close to a guy who was kind, caring, sweet, checked on me daily, then after 5 months he did a complete u turn with how he felt, his values, and things just drastically changed. Better yet he did a U-turn then signaled left and went right, and then signaled right and went left. Confusing to say the least. I was hurt, but continued to sleep with him when he showed hot and cold behaviors.
Every time that I’ve seen him after things have changed, I sought out validation and tried to influence him that I’m what he needs, that I’m enough. I recently decided I had enough and I wanted to get over him. I told him how I felt and things needed to stop between us and hopefully we can remain friends. “I consider you a real friend, and I care about you very much” was what he said to me, and he never really exemplified someone who cared for me, nor a “real friend”. I wanted to seek out closure, BUT it didn’t make me feel any better… And after I said my peace, I didn’t hear much from him after.
This was a great article because she is spot on with what she says. I shouldn’t be reliant on his acknowledgment because that gives him power. I have to take command of me. What I want and what he’s offering is two different things, and I need to let go. I admit I have slipped up and decided to hang out with him this week, he just canceled.. Him canceling was a gift.
No more heartache, no more sadness, no more of finding my worth in this man who clearly doesn’t care… There’s so much more to this story but today I choose to love myself instead of holding onto something that never held onto me.
I read all of the stories on here and it’s nice to have women to relate to and share, and encourage, and give hope to each other. Every woman on here is STRONG, and is worthy of love and happiness, and nothing less than it.
Ladies.. Always remember “Your value doesn’t decrease based on someone’s inability to see your worth”
per usual, you’ve hit the nail on the head. even though i broke it off when i caught my bf in a huge lie about cheating, i haven’t been able to stick to my guns. reading your advice is helping me bolster my courage to be much truer to myself. at the very least, i’m not pretending that this guy is something he’s not. if/when the shit hits the fan again, i won’t fall into a million pieces.
This article is so timely it’s scary! But actually due to a friend who this week has reacted unacceptably and very hypocritically. I love how your articles are so universal! I have always been someone who has spoken their mind, and as I get older it strikes me that the majority of people really hate hearing the truth. But it is so true that in the fallout of telling the truth, we learn so much about ourselves and in the end, it’s us that can sleep well at night, safe in the knowledge that we have been our true selves and they can continue living in denial and being unhappy on the inside.
To ICantBelieve…..
So sad. Marriage is a sacred bond and agreement. Having sex and affairs with married people is a very stupid and harmful thing to do. TRUTH.
“The truth is the truth even if others choose to see it differently.” This reminds me of a book I read recently (I think in English it’s “A man who forgot his life” or something similar). It tells about a married couple who are in the middle of very messy divorce when the man suffers a complete amnesia. Plot in a nutshell that he was a complete jerk to her (or so she believes) during their marriage, and then he falls in love with her again (obviously she’s not on same page!), and he starts to remember things (only good, happy things) about their relationship little by little, and they’re completely different than what she thinks actually happened. Since it’s a fantasy, he’s a changed man, they reconcile and live happily ever after.
I’m not defending people who do jerkish stuff and don’t seem to be at all fazed by the facts (I’m still mad at one for going against all his claimed values, and to add insult to injury, projecting all the bad stuff he did to me!). But in some intellectual level I find it fascinating to what lengths our minds can go to to protect us if we cannot bear to face ourselves and/or the world.
As usual, NML makes very good points about the futility of trying to change someone else than ourselves.
“We hold ourselves hostage to the situation and we keep looking to them for closure and as a result, we keep the wound open by remaining open to some of the things that they do that cause us pain.”
This is me I have made myself a hostage to a situation in my life I am free to leave anytime by going no contact and moving on in my life.
I keep looking to the ex to give me closure and he is so inadequate that he ends up wounding me further.
I have been living in some kind of fantasy that if I keep trying to explain and how to fix things and if he could look at the truth about how he has treated me then he would man up and make things better and I would move on.
I had to face the bitter truth today he will never see things the way I do and he won’t be making things better anytime soon.
I am mad at myself for wasting my time thinking we were on the same page and re building our friendship (minus the sex) but he revealed today that he tolerates me and wants me to just hurry up and move on and stop trying to change him and his views about the past. I guess I have wrong motives too I just want him to acknowledge my version of the truth.
I have been no contact but decided to go back and revisit the situation
get wounded again and again.
I have a lot of thinking to do this is article is thought provoking and helpful to me to sort things out.
You ladies ARE strong! Stay focused on WHAT matters which is that image in the MIRROR! YOU!!!
Thanks for this post, Nat. Starting with my grad advisor who wrote me off when my life was being threatened over my research to the AC who lied about his involvement with another and was pretty much using me for attention, folk not facing truth or ignoring it, throwing me under the bus rather than face awkward facts has really derailed a lot of my life. Even speaking with my late father was frought with tension, frustration, and sadness because he couldn’t handle the truth about the amount of abuse that occurred in our family, that one sibling died as an indirect consequence of that abuse and the other went thru life damaged. Experiencing all this, I have made it a point to live my truth, speak it regardless of consequences and never, ever, be less than completely honest with others. I speak it at work, straight to administrators faces, to my students, to the community. I live my truth which includes unplugging from consumer society, driving as little as possible, ignoring consumer holidays, growing my own food, not heating my home with fossil fuels. It’s a very lonely place, not just man-wise but also as a very vulnerable older chick; this was really brought home by my severe respiratory illness this week. My motto is based upon a quote from my late friend and brother in the Indian way, Walt Bresette; “stand tall, be strong, and tell the truth”.
I learned a long time ago that people who are dishonest and deceitful will not admit it because it requires accountabililty. In fact sometimes it dosen’t matter what their reasons were for doing something hurtful, the fact is they did it!
I don’t need a person to explain to me why they lied or cheated on me because there is no valid reason for doing such things. They had a choice, they chose what works for them!
This is why I never once asked the Ex-EUM why he did the things he did because more than likely he either would justify his behavior or have no valid reasons that would satisfy me. Thus, I made my own closure based on his behavior, chalked it up to lesson learned and used his actions as the reasons why I would never let him back into my life.
Stephanie,
I admire your strength! I really like “…it doesn’t matter what their reasons were for doing something hurtful, the fact is they did it.” I was humiliated time and time again, and just couldn’t believe…I mean I truly just couldn’t comprehend…how another human being could be so hurtful. Time and time again I would go back for more.
I actually saw him for the first time in over 6 months at an event last night. When I looked up and saw him standing there, it took me by surprise. We said “hi” and he gave me a hug. Then a half-assed attempt at asking me to go somewhere else with him later in the evening. When the event was over, I got in my car and I drove home. But I cried. Because there is so much baggage with this man. It doesn’t just disappear quickly.
I thought I was okay. The fear is real. The closure will never be there. Life goes on. My chances of running into him again are slim, albeit it’s a small city. But we don’t run in the same circles often, and I really don’t even know where he does things, as I was mostly the “call after 9 to go to his house” gal.
I am currently dating a really nice man. I will be okay. I was just a bit startled to see his face again.
Rewind,
At that time, it took me sometime to get to point where he no longer had an affect on me. Once I got real with myself and saw him for who he really was it got easy. Believe me I was way more angry with myself for putting up with his nonsense. But the great thing about life, is that you have an opportunity to change your own destiny. Plus I just got tired of being mad!!
It was to the point where any attraction I had for him was gone. Despite his physical attractiveness, his soul was bad and I could no longer let him take my positive energy away.
You see I learned while I wasn’t perfect and I made mistakes with him and owned my mistakes. But, I never mistreated him or hurt him. To this day, I don’t hate him, I actually feel sorry for him because anybody who could justify hurting people whether you love them or not is lost.
Thank you, Stephanie, for you comment.
“Thus, I made my own closure based on his behavior, chalked it up to lesson learned and used his actions as the reasons why I would never let him back into my life”. -LOVE IT 🙂
Wow, another timely article. I’ve moved long past my Miss Unavailable who has a ton narcissistic traits. Recently discovered she is still obsessed with running a smear campaign (that no one outside of her three person harem seems to believe, as they still talk to and hang out with me and my new girlfriend, who is warm and genuine and amazing even under my ex’s threat to not attend any functions where I may be.) I have not told many the truth of her, only those closest to me. The more she tells outrageous lies to mutual friends and new people who met and liked me, the more note that it doesn’t fit people’s experience of me. As I stay silent about her, the more clueless and immature she looks. I don’t need to tell everyone the truth of how horrible she is, I know, and I’m confident she will show them herself in due time. I ignore her but don’t avoid her and my ex-friend who started dating her behind my back who said nothing when I brought up his shady actions in an effort to open the door for a dialogue. I’m not fighting anyone sbout that either. My philosophy has become simple when I’m dealing with these kinds of people – we all have issues. Pick up your own, carry them yourself, if you need help ask for it and when you act like a dipshit, take ownership of it. If you don’t, that’s fine, but I’ll quietly excuse myself from your life. You have the right to be anyone you want, good character or bad; I have the right to light a torch, wave it in your direction, and back away. Not my circus, not my monkeys, and anyone who’d believe her lies isn’t someone I need to waste my time trying to be friends with. 🙂
I had to comment this: I’ve used the circus/monkey reference a lot lately, it is such a good phrase and reminds me to readjust my focus when I notice that anger, resentment or other feelings are about to take over. I just simply step back and think, what am I doing? Is this really worth my energy and time? There is absolutely no need to fix everyone, other people can do their own mistakes and I don’t need to control everything around me.
Yep. Reminds me of another of NML’s articles. People are aware when they are doing shadiness. They don’t need me to tell them. I simply have taken to telling the person I want to either fix things with or let go of what my experience of the event is, how I intend to handle it (ending the friendship/relationship) and I keep it short and sweet. If they accept accountability and attempt to apologize and work to repair it (action based, not just word based) I’m happy to work with them and see if whatever the relationship is can be salvaged. If I get crickets back, oh well, whatever, never mind. Not going to expend any energy on it. Don’t need drama in my life. They’ve shown me who they are at that point (unaccountable, not trustworthy). Don’t need or want “friends” like that.
Dear BurnedbyMissUnavailable,
I wonder if you could give me some advice, being that you are a man who is dating and your ex is a narc. My ex husband is a narc and we have 2 kids. I do not want any of his drama…but it exists. I do not want my kids in the middle of his drama.. but he has them half the time and with his smear campaign to the court.. he will probably always have half and is trying to get more. I want so much to have a good relationship with a man..every time I get dumped for my ex’s drama. Not for me.. but for that I am afraid of my ex. Do you have any suggestions as to how I can get a good man to want to stay…and not just say “not my circus, not my monkeys”. I am trying to not react to my ex’s attempt to control..but my kids are somewhat in the middle. I do have a lot of grief sometimes because I just lost the best man of my life and he simply said “drama”.
If I may say so, I would hazard a guess that these subsequent men you’ve met aren’t such great men either. One of my litmus tests for a good person is whether they dismiss other people’s misfortunes as “drama”. It’s usually lazy shorthand for “I can’t be bothered empathizing with you.” Don’t mistake me, sometimes people *do* wallow in drama, but the word is overused in inappropriate situations. In your case these guys are punishing you for the actions of another human being. NOT the mark of a good person or good relationship material. Hang in there, you *haven’t* found your good guy yet.
Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow when you have let yourself be used for too long. I find the anger at myself is the hardest to cope with, but you have to recognize your mistakes and learn from them. Why be angry that you let a man treat you badly? I do not know why this has been the hardest part for me.
Maybe because my intentions were always good and that was never recognized, maybe because trying to deal with all the false accusations against me was so confusing that I did not realize how harmful it actually has been to my whole being. Why do we try to gain acceptance when there is no understanding or enough love and care of our true selves?
I suppose if people who should be your confidants break your trust and start putting labels on you that do not fit it is the absolute right time to leave! Before you become mired in constantly having to defend yourself from bullshit accusations that have no basis in reality.
I suppose the quest should be to be with people who do not assume they know who you are, but try to discover who you are over time. Being with people who automatically assume the worst, when your intentions are pure is seriously damaging to your health in all ways.
I needed some sort of closure from all the labels that were placed on me by people who did not have good intentions toward me at all. If your boyfriend will not defend you from these people, and joins the crowd against you, it is high time to leave. I do not know if that is a part of the harem syndrome, but if you are not given your proper place in any relationship, leave as soon as you can. If you stay the damage gets worse and harder to reconcile, and then healing from this sort of abuse takes quite a while.
I am still recovering from this bad treatment. I have to blame myself for allowing it in my life, and that is a hard pill to swallow. I hope I have learned this lesson, to only allow people into my life that truly have my best interests at heart…..
@shano:
So don’t swallow it. Not only it is not yours to swallow, but you should throw it at their face.
If you keep blaming yourself you play their game. You are abusing yourself. Don’t.
V.
It is more being angry with myself for putting up with bad treatment for so long. Too long. So taking responsibility for my own hurt, I suppose. I am taking care of myself, but still sad about how I let myself down!
Just throwing this in, this article hits home so much with my last ex- husband and this last ridiculous EU that I just threw out. My last ex-husband’s entire family has been on my NC list not just by phone, e-mail, fb, or any social media…but in person for several years. They were all lied to, to the point where my sons were taken away from me and I had to fight like hell in a nightmarish way to get them back. That family has banded together like a pack of wolves. But my sons tell me the family IS finally questioning many of those lies after all these years. It won’t change how I feel, I want no part of them. I was left out like yesterday’s trash by them and made to feel like the worst person in the world. It took me a very very long time to fight my way up from the mess that left me in. THEN, with this guy I just got rid of? Heard from a mutual friend his bs has already started! Why? So he could impress his next target and well gosh… he’s got another crazy ex-girlfriend to blame everything on. Seems to be normal behavior for these people that want us out of their lives or just need a target. I’m trying very hard to let it go, it’s not easy. There’s that itching in the back of my mind that says “crap, someone is out there telling lies about me and I have to do something about it!” Whatever, they don’t know me and don’t seem to care. Thing is, there’s nothing we can do to stop them, they are what they are and they aren’t going to change. Yeah, I’ve got deep scars from that family and darn it all I’ve opened myself up to more of the same behavior… but I think it’s going to be easier to let it go this time now that I’m learning more and more about myself. SO grateful to have started coming here!!
I hear you about being a ‘target’ by people who should be your tribe. All the stupid exhausting games that are played around creating a whipping post or a scapegoat, and to what end? So they can feel better about their own miserable lives? So they have juicy gossip? It is not only exhausting to have to defend yourself from complete nonsense all the time, but it is infuriating as well. I do not understand this dynamic at all or what they get out of it.
LilDebby- it might be “stupid and harmful” but many of us here have still been there and done it- and other stupid things that are harmful to OURSELVES.
BR is about bringing things back to us.
Stephanie- spot on. Thanks.
I think I lied and justified the situation to MYSELF for so long about things, including that I was fine about the situation? So even I believed I was!
I really wasn’t fine! But I didn’t listen to myself- did not trust myself, only tried to listen to him and his version of the truth. Which as a MM was lots of lying to wife, Other OW and me. Why did I try to trust his version of the truth and not mine?
yes, I ask myself the same. and I wonder why I could not stop trying to present my feelings and my opinion and all the other things that makes us a human being- but could not decipher the connection between my own unhappiness and this horrible relationship dynamic that had no reciprocity.
“We hold ourselves hostage to the situation and we keep looking to them for closure and as a result, we keep the wound open by remaining open to some of the things that they do that cause us pain.”
Me too. I see where I have been doing this with NarMom – my narcissistic mother. We share a duplex, we have separate spaces, but we still share our lives to a degree. It was something I wanted to do, after my parents divorced. Since we both had apartments, I suggested we save money and buy a home together. For the most part it is a comfortable life. But I recently realized where it has been limiting.
So many times I would go to her trying to get that validation. Feeling a little fear inside as I did it. Dressed for an interview and hoping she’d give me a hearty “You look great”, but instead it is an offhand “fine”, with a tone of disinterest. Yet, whenever she gets dressed for an event, my job is to be her cheerleader. She comes up to show me how fabulous she looks and to get her compliments – which I always give. It does not hurt me to praise her, but she never returns that behavior for me.
I have ( or had) bad skin – acne…well into my 50’s. If I had a pimple, and I was going out, just before I stepped out the door my mother would come over to my face and pop a pimple. That sends the negative message that the pimple is the only thing anyone would see, and anyone who has had pimples knows you do not break them before going out, because they ooze.
But, since dropping dairy from my diet, my skin has greatly improved – I highly recommend it to anyone suffering with adult acne. For the last 3 years I have maintained a 44 pound weight loss. Lately, I am doing some major decluttering – mentally, spiritually, and materially. My living room looks fabulous now that I’ve let go of things that did not work, the clothing rack in the back room that held piles of excess has been emptied and dismantled. And as I make improvements, I notice NarMom is becoming sullen and withdrawing, withholding. But I now know and understand not to go to THAT well for any approval or validation. I run toward positivity because I know attitude can make all the difference in what life brings to you. It is hard to break old conditioning, but you just have to replace it with new thoughts. I have some ideas for growing my income, and lately I’ve been chanting “Suppose it DOES work?”
wow, that was very encouraging. every improvement you make in your life, however small, is progress. thank you.
@Elgie
I can relate. I’m currently living with an EUM who is very critical and can never say anything positive. He has never even been able to tell me he loves me (except a few times not in out native language). This has been one of my constant complaints and every time I bring it up he makes excuses, tells me it’s a joke, and that I’m too sensitive. Like you I’m trying to be positive and take some steps towards other things I want without his support. Like you mentioned with your NarMom he just keeps becoming more and more withdrawn. Even me telling him I am very frustrated with him hasn’t yielded any change on his side – not even a dialog. It hurts because it’s someone who professes to care yet he action do not feel like caring. Luckily we don’t own a house together so our living situation temporary.
Elgie, how fantastic to hear! What I find fascinating these days, now that I’m a regular BR reader and more observant of other people’s behaviours, is to see how different people react to change. Your mother has lost control over you so she is using whatever coping mechanism she has to restore the previous balance. I guess the sulkiness and withdrawing is meant for you to come over and direct all your attention back to her?
What a great post Natalie. You sure know how to convert painful experiences in cathedrals of peace and strength. Good for you! Hugs, V.
This is great! Thank you! It reminds me of the quote “there is no better peace than minding your own business.” I have spent a lot of time angry at my parents for various reasons, but once I realized it’s not about me, not my responsibility, and not my problem, I got to absolve myself of their relationship and move on to finding the kind of relationship I want. As long as you’re still grappling with the past, you can’t design your future.
<3
Another great post! Instead of looking for closure, validation, or an apology for being undeservingly treated like crap (which I allowed), I have to keep reminding myself of a quote I loved from a book I read last summer:
“It didn’t work,” I said, “Don’t you remember?”
“You remember what you like,” you said. “Your story about us will always be different from mine.” R.S., Ghostwalk
I enjoyed it thoroughly when I read it and thought I would share. I think it’s applicable in many different situations. Ultimately it doesn’t matter what someone else’s story about us is. We all need to focus on our OWN truth and not someone else’s version!!!
He can remember what he likes… What he chooses to remember will always be different from what I will take from this whole experience. Some days are harder than others but BR has really been a godsend!
XO
“We hold ourselves hostage to the situation and we keep looking to them for closure and as a result, we keep the wound open by remaining open to some of the things that they do that cause us pain.”
This is EXACTLY what I needed to hear. I’v been involved with a guy that I’ve referenced before,and while not initiating contact, I have not gone NC. Yet.
This post really opened my eyes and spoke directly to my heart. This along with a situation that happened last week has really forced me to examine myself and what I want. The situation I speak of occurred last Friday. I attended an extended family member’s wedding. Alone. I was at a table of 8 consisting of 4 couples and myself. Why was I alone you may wonder? I was wondering that too and the sad part is that I knew if I had asked the guy I’m “seeing” he would have declined with an excuse. I’m done lying to myself and making excuses for him. Why am I wasting my time and energy on someone who clearly doesn’t care for me. I go NC starting now. Thanks for a great timely article Nat.
I did the same recently and I live with the guy who calls himself me BF. I had to go to a wedding alone as I go to just about everything in my life without him. I like the company but after reading BR over and over again I’m feeling like the price is getting too high.
Funny thing is I forgot my dress (I was in the wedding) and he had to drive it to me so I take photos with everyone. Even then he didn’t want to come up all the way but didn’t have anything planned (an hour). He proceeded to call me and ‘vent’ until I cried complaining. After calling me 3 times the last time I told him to stop driving and my dress wasn’t worth this and I would drive down and get it even if I was late. In the end he brought it (probably to save face in front of my friends) and luckily didn’t stay. In the end I met a few cool people and one of them we’ve already hung out, so far seems like a good person, and hopefully will turn into a new friend.
I’m sorry to read, Allison, that your horrible EUM doesn’t want to change for you.
Thanks Mephista. Funny thing is he created the expectation of changing. I tried to break up with him a few months ago saying that the relationship wasn’t enough for me, he showed me what he was willing to contribute, and that I don’t believe in pushing people to change (other than little things like leaving sox on the floor type stuff). It was his idea to step up and he did initially but it’s already back to cold. I mentally realized this is what he WANTS to offer. It’s not enough for me. So I need to move on. Emotionally and logistically it’s a bit tougher than than but I know I need to put some distance in there and make new friends so I have the strength to go full NC.
This is something I still need to work on. For years I never confronted anyone, so now I’m overdoing it by being a BS vigilante. It feels good to do it, actually, and I guess sometimes I need to hear the answer, but I’m realizing now that it’s easier to just act accordingly (if they’re not calling, don’t talk to them) instead of asking questions. Sometimes no confrontation is easier than having the confrontation IF you are prepared for the truth and can walk away from it and never look back.
Ladies, ladies, ladies. My ex started showing up again in Feb after he finally quit in December after more than a year of nc and him still showing up. Well low and behold i had a lesson to still learn. I decided to listen to what he had to say. After several weeks of continuing to listen i discovered he is still a liar! I am not sure what he gets out of it but i definitely sucked it and saw and now i have no doubt or lingering wonder if that man has any good intention towards me. The answer is a complete and absolute NO. Odd to think this man can show up for years and behind all that work is bad intention, and indifference to me even being a person with feelings despite his declarations of love and being sorry and please let me prove to you. Bla bla bla. Obviously i wasn’t as over him and the pain he caused me before as i thought. Thankfully i got early confirmation he is still who he is, no misunderstanding. Im disappointed but lesson noted and i will keep moving forward. 🙁
Happyagain, this is exactly the right lesson. Its okay to have let him in once again, sometimes it takes a while to fully disengage. And now when you see him for who he is, your radar is on, you dont need explanations or validation, and you have moved on. Yes it totally hurts though. I saw the EUM on the street and while I try to walk on with a polite but not too friendly (what a tough line!) hello, he clearly wants to talk, he always stops me, asks questions, and I basically have to ‘gotta go, appointment, meeting!’ and walk away.
I am worried almost when I dont feel upset. Right now I’m not upset, just not happy with the fact of having to see him around, or see him socially – I try to attend every fourth or fifth event since I dont want to drop out of my group completely. I’m worried that I will let him back in, or that somehow will convince myself that what happened is okay. Or worse that somehow he will convince me that it was okay – he seems to be angling for attention a little bit in the last few weeks, minor things, texts etc., but this was after months of NC from both sides (though I would still run into him so not total NC ever).
He made me unhappy. And I’m not over him, in that although I dont want to be with him at all, I dont seek information on him, I dont seek contact, but I think his behavior still affects me, so NC is what I would like but its not possible.
I showed myself that I can take care of myself and I can treat people decently even when they’re being total bleepity bleeps. I think I also treated myself more or less decently, it just takes time to fully figure out your feelings and then act on them consistently. Thats what I want to do I guess – see my truth, act on it, and be consistent as well!
Suki. Don’t you think you’re getting over him more than you give yourself credit for? If you can see him (unplanned) and not go away upset that’s a start. You say you’re not seeking him out or asking about him, but there’s something about your post, as a whole, that sounds like you are very sad at the demise of the feelings you had for him and almost wish you could wipe the slate clean and start fresh. If I’m wrong please let me know and I’m sorry. You ARE NC. You are not looking for him and it cannot be helped if you accidentally run into him. You are scheduling your time with your friends so as not to have to see him, which is already an inconvenience. So what more can you do? This is why I don’t want a bf in my neighborhood because when it’s over I don’t want to see hide nor hair of him. A break up can be so difficult especially for someone who seems to have their sh*t together. You know mentally it can’t work, but the feelings of the heart keep you from moving on as quickly and thoroughly as you would like. Just keep doing what you are doing. Heck, I’d start increasing my time with the group. You can’t run forever. Take your power back. Wishing you better days soon. Serene.
Suki
I understand what you are saying. I dont want to see this guy either. It bothers me. I will get back to the indifferent place and be more self aware from my lesson learned. Honestly i was more disappointed in myself for talking to him. But also disappointed in who he is. A great thing is it was over quickly and not emotionally devastating like it was the other year after years of nonsense. I quickly saw he hadn’t changed. Best news is now he gets to leave me alone again and go mess with someone else! Yay me! 🙂 Thank you for replying. Its good to be able to talk about it.
Hey, Happy. Your ex was just going by the playbook that always worked in the past. He does not expect that you are any different. His crumbs always worked before. His empty promises always worked before. He just has to show up and say things you want to hear, and then you’ll pull down your panties, or stroke whatever it is he is hoping you’ll stroke, and he will disappear like that proverbial fart in the wind, with excuses and fake laments and sympathy (“You deserve better”, “I’m not what you need”). When he needs some attention again, he’ll be back with the same playbook.
I really do not believe these takers have any idea that they are being hurtful. They are low on empathy. They just want what they want and hope you are ready to deliver.
Elgie
I wish what you said wasnt accurate but it is. Its true he obviously thought that even with more than a year NC accept if he caught me out of my house to which i hurried inside. He never said anything like you deserve better or anything because honestly he is so disconnected from reality i believe he genuinely does think he is the best ever. Everytjing else is spot on. And he will probably show up when he wants attention. Better he get it elsewhere and hurt people other than me though. I plan to move later this year when my lease it up so that will also help so he can’t ever show up again!
Elgie is right. And thats a great example to turn the attention back to you. We wonder if he changed and how or lament that no he didn’t. But the point is that the moment WE CHANGE is the moment its over. And they come around till that time – maybe even after that but then you know what to do.
I think EUM needs an ego stroke and knows that I used to oblige before – I never really did ego strokes in the sense of ‘oh how great you are’ which I know he was getting from most people anyway. But i was a patient listener, and played along as a fake date and i always treated him decently and with kindness. He was a wreck last year – not that that excuses him, it was nothing beyond what happens to everyone in life. And of course I was fun, and he could have a ‘fake date’ with me. I was there when he needed that.
@serene; you’re right I probably am sad. Not to lose him as I dont have any feelings for him now other than stress at having to see him. I dont think I’ll increase time with this group as they were mostly closer to him, and the ones that I was close to I’ve been seeing one-on-one throughout. I think I might be sad at just being alone or at how badly some things turn out. Of course I knew all along that he was an a–hole, its hard sometimes to give up the fleeting happiness that you know is going to bite you later. Or perhaps I just sound sad because I am – sort of in between things right now (not related to him, but work, family etc), and feel that some changes need to be made but not yet sure what direction to go.
Suki. You are right to limit your time with the group since they’re closer to him than to you. But it’s good that you’re continuing to see your friends one on one. When you’ve had a “friend” who meant something to you and then there’s a rift, it will hurt for awhile. But, take heart. You’ve more than once stated that you knew he was an AC all along. You probably feel angry with yourself for giving him a chance against your better judgement. I don’t know why I’m trying to help you figure out the root cause of your sadness. Other than I care about fellow commenters, and I’m seeing a different side of you. When a number of issues in your life go hay-wire at the same time, it can be rough. I certainly understand that. But, trite as it may sound, you will work everything out in time. My elderly aunt used to say “Nothing stays the same forever”. I believe, for you, things WILL GET BETTER, not worse. You have the life skills. Just going through a rough patch right now. It happens to the best of us. You will be okay.
Suki
You know I had done well for more than a year despite the fact he was constantly showing up. I made alot of changes in myself during that time. Obviously though i have more to do since I allowed myself to be sucked back in for any period. Im disappointed in myself. Never the less my lesson to take from this is i cant EVER be the person i am to this person. Period. Its over, done, and complete. He cemented his character in me now and i know this guy has no concern, empathy or anything for me. It was simply despite his declarations of love, i was of use at times. No more no less. No more disappointment cycle for me.
I just feel so stupid for allowing him my time and myself over these last several weeks. How could i put myself in a position for him to hurt me again especially so far out and while ive been so much healthier and happy?
Aw @Happyagain.. cut yourself some slack. I wrote a long post and it got eaten. Sometimes we like someone that is an AC/EU/ or just an immature jerk. But they are also charming, intelligent, friendly, pursuing, sometimes seemingly kind, etc. Their actions dont match their words. Your feelings, thoughts, and actions and body dont match up either – I knew he was AC for a long long time, perhaps from day 1. I felt liking for him for quite a while. I was comfortable with him even after I had stopped really liking him. It takes a while to get it all aligned. Even after NC I still felt like I could ‘stay friends’ etc. So I understand where you’re coming from.
Anyway, you have learnt something about yourself, a lot of things, now you KNOW you’re susceptible to him. Oh yeah thats what I had written a whole chapter on in the lost post! Susceptibility. You’re susceptible to him.
Some people are just not good at long term even if they seem charming, they can only keep their interest briefly, and they use people emotionally. Sometimes they can be very nice, they’re not necessarily mean (though EUM was insulting and passive aggressive), but they have no staying capacity. They have the interest of a fruit fly. Plus if you tell him what you think of him its actually an incentive for him to come back because if you take him back he can feel better about himself.
@ Serene; sadness. Yep. Its there. I dont know what to do with it. Perhaps I do wish I could wipe the slate clean and start fresh> perhaps I’m afraid that that is what I might do and there is more drama to be had from this guy. Perhaps I am just waiting for it to be spring.
Suki
Thank you. I am not susceptible anymore after the way he disrespected me but i obviously certainly was and if ever my eyes lie to me about him in the future i will remember that. I really sucked it and saw though. No doubt left regardjng this mans character. Honestly stories ive heard over the years even before he turned on me (which prompted nc) more than a year ago all were red flags. Huge red flags at full mast waving in the wind but i believed the best in him when i should have just believed him. I was reflecting on alot of things today and definitely feel better than the other days. I wish you the very best Suki. 🙂
OMG…”his crumbs always worked before. His empty promises always worked before. He just has to show up and say things you want to hear, and then you’ll pull down your panties, or stroke whatever it is he is hoping you’ll stroke….” Do we know the same guy???
You don’t know how many times I was sent a text or email that said “you deserve better,” or “there are so many men out there that would treat you better.” blah, blah, blah.
Your post gave me a shiver….so many bad traits that I fell for. Good grief.
I knew from quite early on that I should not hope for him to validate my truth. But I kept hoping, despite the periods of no contact. I guess the utter confusion he constantly created triggered my need to dig the truth – what I did not realize was that the confusion itself was all that I needed to know, and should have been enough for me to fold. But the fact that I did not, has taught me an important lesson about myself.
Only now, a few days after having sent the final message ‘do not contact me again’, I feel I am truly starting to let go of that need.
On the one hand, everything about him and the ‘relationship’ has become – if anything – even more vivid, there are memories emerging, the tiniest things during the day can remind me of him and tug at my heart. I am allowing myself to cry again about it, after a long time. I think it is a phase of the grieving process that had been thwarted, so i am welcoming the feelings.
On the other hand, I am now able to acknowledge MY truth, i do not need any external validation for it (and I have noticed this has had a ripple effect, I have distanced myself from someone else who was acting as a ‘saviour’, giving me advice that in hindsight was not in my best interest). No more drama. I am at peace, I do not fret about what he may or may not be thinking or doing. I still wish him well, but from a distance.
Slowly, my strength is coming back. The focus is back on me, on the areas that I need to improve. Only I can do it. I can strive to live authentically, but I won’t wait for someone else to put the stamp of ‘truth’ on my feelings and convictions. It is a hard journey, and i’m only at the start, really. Wish me well.
yes, my ex was this way as well. I should have known just from the ‘crazymaking’ behavior alone that a relationship with him was not in my best interests.
I stayed too long and that hurts.
Living authentically, nice. Building strength by doing so. Perfect.
As a result of living my truth, I have only one person in my life! I hate being lied to so much that I have no one left in my life! Literally. Now what?
You rebuild if and when you encounter people of dignity and integrity. Living your truth often must result in offloading folk who cannot or will not treat you with respect, including ones own family if necessary. Nat has a previous post stating that making the right decision is not always painless. Plus you will always have you.
Wow…so often you seem to write exactly what I need to hear. I can’t tell you how much reading this blog has helped me at various points these last few years. What you wrote here is quite insightful. I keep waiting for my Mr. Unavailable, who I’d been trying to have a friendship with after accepting he’ll always be unavailable for any other kind of relationship, but these last few weeks I’ve finally been coming to terms with the fact that he’s unavailable for friendship as well. This post help drive home the point I’ve been beginning to accept: that he is who he is and will act accordingly no matter the situation or kind of relationship. I haven’t wanted to accept the truth of who he is, but I finally am…and you provided the last push I needed to validate my decision. Thank you.
Julie, same here. I keep waiting for my Mr. unavailable also. I’ve been trying to have a friendship since he’s not available for a relationship but at the end of the day he seems to be unavailable all around. I’ve learned that I need to let go. These guys do what works for them, and we need to do what works for us. I no longer have the energy for meaningless friendships/relationships. And if what u want is something meaningful, and he’s not putting in any effort to even be a friend, then let him go. This post too was the last push for me to make my decision.. Always remember how valuable you are and what u deserve.
It took me almost ten years to get off the hamster wheel of trying to get validation from an ex-EUM. Even long after we broke up, I’d send him emails listing his transgressions and expect a sincere apology or an explanation that would suddenly shine light on why he did/said whatever, and then I’d expect to feel at peace. NEVER HAPPENED. Instead I’d get gaslighting (I never said/did, etc. or I only said/did because you said/did… etc.) or I’d get an “OK” or a “Sorry you feel that way.” I don’t know why it took me so long to realize that I didn’t need him to agree with my truth. I don’t know why we get stuck on these things but we do, and I have to forgive myself for that and just be grateful that I’m out of it. Let him drive someone else insane!
Hi Diane
Though it isn’t really a laughing matter I did have a chuckle because just this week I did exactly that wrote an e mail in a very ‘nice’ way to the ex saying how we need to fix up our communication because when I mention something to you all I hear back is how I am paranoid, too sensitive, how you never said such a thing etc.
I too expected the light to go on and oh I will be more careful with what I am saying etc.
Instead his reply was very mean and highly critical of me.
I was a bit shocked at first by his reply, but soon released it is more of the same.
I too am waking up to he doesn’t need to and never will agree with my truth.
I do have an issue with flogging the dead horse. Time to stop.
Me too Diane. Exact same words. Especially “I’m sorry that you feel hurt”. As if that is a state that fell on me from somewhere above the sky, and it was not him who did the hurt.
I know why it takes so long: it is so painful to admit that the person who I loved the bones of and spent 10 years of my life with didn’t give a damn shit about me, ever. Not one iota of care, ever. That is the truth (for me, anyway). V.
and the feeling of being used when you put your loyalty and heart on the line….. it is a hard road even if you were the one to finally call it quits. I imagine it is the same for everyone who has endured bad treatment while they loved someone.
Yeah, I would also get “I didn’t intend to hurt you.” Oh, well, as long as there was no intent. LOL!
Still trying to get validation from my ex, pregnant for 6 months, with two other children with two other father, none involved with her or the kids because she has one in foster care and other we won custody of until she asked me to stop helping her 2 weeks later was taken back from her.I made a mistake severe to her but promised to never do it again and held that cause it could jeopardize keeping her daughter and going for her son in the end she lost her anyways and now the baby will be apprehended at birth, unless I accept paternity there are others she was unfaithful for a good portion of our relationship I believe because of mass messages from a lot on phone I saw, i forgave her and said we need to carry on for the kids and she said no becxwise she thinks their is no way I can trust her again and she will always think I’m still making my mistake, we are at war over this child I want to be in its life if she does get it I’m get cut out as much as possile, if I get it I will not deny her anything and it gets to stay in her life, if we both lose well we both lose.her family doesn’t know how bad she has slept around and the boys she is with are still making my mistake of using I will prove my cleanliness but it makes no difference
Shattered,
That sounds like chaos. Please put the children and the babies first. They should not be in an environment with drug users. You sound like you intend to seek to get custody of the baby not because you want him/her but in order to get leverage with your (ex?) girlfriend. It’s hard enough parenting a baby when you’re committed, loving and sober. You and our gf don’t sound anywhere close, at present. I fear for that baby. Please let the baby be fostered, better still adopted, and concentrate on building your sobriety and other life skills. Maybe in time you will find a suitable partner and be able to plan a family responsibly.
I don’t understand why it is that we seem to see what useless, lowdown people they are AFTER the rship is over. Could it be that we just lie to ourselves rejecting the truth so that we can continue the farce? Lying to others is bad, but lying to yourself is just sad. Let us all try very hard to live in the real. Live our truths. Life gets so much better when you start with that.
Hi, Serene Formerly Tink.
I think that in the beginning of these nothing relationships we are so thrilled to feel desire and be desired – not simply sexual desire, but someone expressing a desire to really KNOW us. That infatuation period is so intoxicating, and most of us seem to have been starved for positive attention, interest and/or a sense of belonging. In the beginning we think we have found an emotional home.
I was with an ACMM and at no time did I want to replace his wife. I was happy with the minor role of booty call, because he was always so happy to see me. It took repeated visits where I noticed that no bonds were deepening between me and AC….it seemed like the longer we saw each other the more distant I felt. Discovering BR….that’s when I started noticing the AC patterns, the playbook, the reasons for my angst….
In the beginning ACs are more ardent and involved. If you really want a mutual relationship, it is a blessing that ACs pull their hot&cold acts, their disappearing acts…because it forces one to question – what is happening here? Is this what I want? The problem for a lot of us here is that when we get to this questioning stage, we think the answer is to sit down with the AC and tell the AC what they need to change in order for us to feel more secure and more happy. Or, we try to fool ourselves into thinking we can take things as they are because we are too emotionally sophisticated to actually require mutual when we know the AC never does mutual.
For ACs, we are not their first rodeo. They know most of the people they will use for their strokes will get pissed off at some point and try to wheedle more involvement. That’s why they need a harem.
Elgie, your story is my story (“it seemed like the longer we saw each other the more distant I felt. Discovering BR….that’s when I started noticing the AC patterns, the playbook, the reasons for my angst…”). So true.
Even the first few months after discovering BR I still was in denial. Thought these were not patterns but unfortunate circumstances, coincidences. It also did not help that a EUM was saying that I was seeing patterns where there were none, and these were just nasty circumstances (our mutual denial clicked so well!).
I think many EUMs are well respected professionally. They might be leaders in their field or community. Or both. This is what “my” exEUM is. He is a highly successful and respected person. And because previously I have not had a EU partner, I did not look for any signs. AND, took how the OUTSIDE world described him over my OWN judgement (not judgement really, just the eternal numb pain). I thought he was the bees knees because everyone says he is. Yes, I thought all of this “persona” stuff mattered more than the fact that he had a short term gf which then became a long term gf during the course of OUR relationship and that he continued cheating on the both of us, oscillating between the two women when one was becoming more “needy” than the other. And all other classy EUM moves.
I think many EU people have very attractive personalities. You see this instantly, it’s on the surface. They are charming, successful, knowledgable in certain aspects etc. This is all on the surface and I think this is what we get seduced by.
But character or, rather, the lack of thereof, is not easy to spot during the initial stage. It takes time. And I suppose this is why NML says to let people unfold – so we can make our decisions based on the important stuff – their character.
All of this is totally new to me. I am still trying to incorporate these new values and belief system into my daily habits and my dating life. It’s VERY hard. They say it takes 30 days (?) to start re-wiring the brain. But I know for a fact, that no way in hell do I want to go to the old patterns of denial and thinking and valuing men.
Why. It’s so true. EUM’s have a remarkable charisma which is hard to resist. They are able to charm the pants off of someone who knows them and recognizes the pattern, so someone like you and I back then are putty in their hands. I’m not just glad, I’m ecstatic that I’ve reached this point in my life. I know you are, too.
I think that’s is why it is so important for us women to have our ‘game plan’ down pat. What we want, who we are, need, deserve, what we have to offer and what are deal breakers are. This is something we should already have down solid. And not waiver from it. Most women have no clue of this.
Right on and wonderfully put Elgie!
Woke up thinking of him (and everything else) today and your comment just hit the nail on the head, Elgie! Thank you!
I just wanted to feel desired and I enjoyed the crumbs of attention. Who doesn’t want to feel wanted? I was alone for a long time before him so any attention was monumental at that time. I was OK being a secret with this co-worker guy because I somehow convinced myself that I was “special”. Sure, he had his harem, but he secretly liked ME. I know it’s effed up but as someone pointed out to me on another BR post, I wanted to win. I wanted to be “chosen” so badly that I settled for crumbs.
And this wasn’t his first rodeo – FOR SURE! He’s done this before and I am now realizing that he’s surely had a few secret girls over the years.
I’ve been NC for 3 weeks now and today seems much tougher for some reason, so I really appreciated your comment. I woke up with an immense sadness. I know I will never speak to him again and I will forever be relegated to being a “crazy-ex”. I will just be someone he casually mentions in a story about his crazy exes…but I wasn’t crazy. I didn’t do anything wrong and I certainly didn’t do anything crazy. I just wanted to feel wanted and respected. To not feel like someone was embarrassed of me or someone always chose me last.
I will continue to work on myself and keep myself away from these “nothing relationships”. I’d like to order up one of these “mutual relationships” you speak about 🙂 Where can I get one of those? HAHAHA
Thanks for the insight. I can’t say enough how much these posts and comments have helped me throughout these past few weeks. Wishing everyone well today…
XO
Yes, Elgie. In the beginning I was so thrilled to be desired. I’d recently lost my husband who died in my arms. This followed many years of no sex. I found out AFTER being intimate with him that he had married his long time gf. By then I didn’t care that he was married. I didn’t want the sex to stop. I experienced all of the deception, manipulation,and lack of consideration on his part. For my part, once we got past the ardent beginning that you speak of and I began to see the flip side of his nature, I began to feel the self-loathing and pervasive shame that I’d allowed myself to engage with him in the first place. I was a sitting duck. He knew I was vulnerable and he saw an opportunity. He ran hot and cold, disappeared for no reason,treated me little regard, which forced me to examine “what is happening here?” Oh, yes. I went through it all. Fortunately for me, I became fed up after 6-7 months, kicked him to the curb and went NC full on, never to go back on it. I think the question I posed was more for myself than the BR community. I’ve recently in the last year been approached by my neighbor and by someone I met on line a few years ago – both married. Although I am horny as hell, it is just not worth it to me to bring back those horrible feelings of NO self worth on myself. Now that I’m “well”, I just cannot do it. The sex was the best I’d ever experienced but hating myself for my behavior proved to me how ungratifying it really was/is. Thanks for your input. Serene.
Serene, this is so true: “Although I am horny as hell, it is just not worth it to me to bring back those horrible feelings of NO self worth on myself. Now that I’m “well”, I just cannot do it”. I am at this place too. At least most of the time.
Why. Glad you’re there too. Stay that way. REMEMBER how you used to feel not very long ago. You don’t want that again.
This site has been very very helpful for me having been in an affair with a married woman who was a childhood crush of mine. I read it often.
She actually said she didn’t consider it cheating because she was “thinking” about getting a divorce. So in her mind she didn’t actually cheat. She had me sold that her marriage was “over” and she needed me.
Now she’s pregnant a year after our affair. Yeah… So “over”.
So yeah…. VERY HELPFUL BLOG!
Yea, though I walk through the valley of death…
So, I just got a wonderful role in a wonderful play, only to find out that Mr. Big is doing the lighting design. He messaged me to let me know, ending with, “I can’t wait to shine light on your beauty and talent. This will be the first time I’ve lighted you.
This, from the man who, after he gave me a high risk strain of HPV, told a very distaught, inconsolable me that he might not let me [CENSORED] anymore if I ended up getting throat cancer.
I’m nine months out of this faker’s (read: f**ker’s) clutches, and knew I’d have to deal with him sooner or later, but I’ve had less than 24 hours to be happy I got the role and he’s already starting his pathetic attempts to manipulate me. I know he doesn’t care about me. I know he isn’t in my corner. I know he hates it when I succeed.
So.
Please, all of you who have to work with your ex, would you share your humor, wisdom, fantasies, etc. for getting through each day? All tips and tricks (voodoo curses are also good) will be appreciated.
Spanish J. Did you go NC when you broke up? If you did, just maintain that mentality. Cold shoulder. Freeze him out. If you start laughing and joking with him he’s going to step up his pursuit. Anyway, would you be living your truth by doing so? It doesn’t appear that you have any reason to even smile at him. Carry on your friendly interaction with the rest of the cast but do a complete 180 when he approaches you He has to do the lighting on you but you can treat him like a total stranger. Don’t show any sign of familiarity. If you’re going to weaken don’t put yourself in that position. YOU are making the choice to accept the role because you want it, but there’s a price to pay. Is it worth it? Prove to yourself that you can do this.
Also. You used the phrase, “all of you who have to work with your ex.” That’s not you. Is he the only person who does lighting? If not, why take that role? It’ still a bit early to be putting yourself in the position of working closely with him. Don’t you have a choice? If not, then my suggestion stands.
SJ,I agree with Serene (Tink). Also, if you really don’t like getting his moronic text messages, why not go total NC and just have his no. blocked. That is what would help get me through the day.
SJ, I wonder if it would be useful for you to identify your emotions regarding him. Anger is very different from sadness, longing, feeling small around him, nerves etc. Also, his text sounds creepy – ew, ‘shine a light on you’? He’s overstepping boundaries. You’ll have to learn to ignore him.
My ex-husband (who I’m still friendly with for the most part) is in a bizarre emotional affair relationship with the wife of his “best” friend and doesn’t consider it cheating because she has no intention of leaving the marriage. This has been going on for the past ten years, ever since our divorce. The affair is mostly clandestine emotional letters and phone calls. But because they are all *friends,* he stays at their house and does things with them together without the husband being any the wiser – and sees no problem with that. The woman somehow keeps this compartmentalized in her head by “only” keeping it emotional, which in her mind doesn’t really count – in all this time they have never had sex because *that* would be cheating. They are both completely delusional. I asked him, “well, if you two are as madly in love with each other as you say, then why doesn’t she leave her husband so you can be together?” His answer: “She made a vow before God that she wouldn’t leave her marriage.” Oh, so it’s ok then… Duh! She’s already left the marriage, idiot! But deludes herself by thinking she’s still “pure” and keeping her vows. He doesn’t press her because this way he can pretend that he’s not betraying his friend. This may go on another ten years. They’re both crazy. (And I’m so glad he is no longer my husband!)
I guess I’m sharing this to show that people are truly capable of justifying anything and making up new versions of what is the “truth.” It’s frightening.
Wiser. OMG. Such an insidious form of cheating. I find it hard to believe they haven’t gotten it on in over 10 years? That’s what they may SAY. Human nature and curiosity alone belies that. BS!
I know it’s hard to believe, but it’s true. My ex was rather wary of sex and intimacy, so this way he gets to immerse himself in a fantasy relationship with no strings, no obligations, no muss, no fuss. He’s a rather cold fish who never wanted anyone to need him emotionally and therefore never wanted a REAL relationship. Somehow this craziness suits him. I feel really sorry for the husband who thinks my ex is a true and honest friend.
Dear God. It is frightening. Hopefully I won’t ever find myself in any of the positions of this ‘love’ triangle. Interesting story, thanks for sharing Wiser. V.
Wiser-
Your ex’s story sounds like the MM I was with and his other OW, who was in a relationship (which made him jealous) why he talked to me about it, I don’t know (I’ve posted before about it). But he’d justify everything to himself (and looked to me for validation which I never gave) and it sounded like other OW justified her sleeping with MM long term too.
I realised I’d sort of done that too (justified the affair) but saw how msnipulative MM was ( as well as EU, an AC to me and also his wife and a liar)
I found his whole emotional persona really dark, creepy and eerie. I was kind of sociopath – or at least a narcissist.
He was cheating, and justified it.
He was an AC to me, but didn’t care. He’d already come up with his version of the truth and in his mind he is entitled to cheat (and hurt people) because he has a tough job.
I refused to sign up to that and called it all off.
Here is some truth that I have observed and re observed through the years. There are guys (and women) who are ‘good people’. And when I say that I mean, family thinks their great, they are good at work, and friends love them…but they either are not interested in or just plain suck (don’t have the qualities) at relationships. The AC’ness comes in when they lie and manipulate to extract ‘services’ from women with no real care or insufficient care for the woman. Its up to us to defend us. There are just men out here who the whole entire ‘talking’, talking about ‘feelings’, having ‘feelings’,reciprocity, giving, empathy, understanding, consideration, and often times honesty JUST AINT THEIR SHTICK. They are not here for it so don’t bug them about it. That’s their attitude. Men are always up or a penis and ego stroke…and they will take that from ANY AND ALL WOMEN. They seriously don’t care where they put it at. And on one level or another, they see, and more frighteningly have been taught directly or indirectly by other men, that women are to be mined like one would mine for coal or gold. At a certain level most men feel like women are here to serve and help them and he is entitled to that from any women whether he likes her, reciprocates or not. Again most men love receiving penis and ego stroke services in addition to a bonus emotional airbag and punching bag (both are abusive) regardless of what women is giving them. Men can love the service but not connect or care about the woman who are providing these ‘services’ to him because he feels that is what women is here for on some level, or he is narcissistic enough to think that his showing up is good enough. And I keep saying services because many of us were mere prostitutes and escorts whom these AC/EU/MM didn’t have to leave money on the night stand for…and we didn’t even see it at the time. A man on one of Oprah’s fatherless sons specials said that men can desire and enjoy the intimacy that sex brings but separate that intimate feeling from the woman who is providing it to him during the sex. Its each or our jobs to delineate whether he is here for us or here for the ‘services’.
I also am learning and re learning that I am my first line of defense. And if I refuse to defend myself (like many women do) that is not these guys fault. There are many people in the world who have no problem using the fact that somebody is a ‘good person’ and ‘don’t want trouble’ against them. I am practicing looking at myself and my life as a business and I am the CEO as well as the human resource manager. If shitty staff keeps getting into my company, then I gotta look at myself. Not for the fact that they are crappy, because crappy people exist right along with decent people, but because I keep ‘hiring’ them. And not only do I hire them, I don’t fire them when they keep showing me they are not an asset to my company. I’ll be back with more.
Ljsrmissy
I like the way you describe it as a business. I will use that way to look at it in my mind. I certainly would not consider it an option to have employees like that because it would ruin a company.
Yea Happy Again,
It helps me very much. Helps me take a nice logical look at things as well.
Missy. I agree with what you’ve said about EUM’s,AC ‘s, MM’s loving sex and not really caring who is providing it. But as far as women are concerned, it’s not so simple. We don’t learn about these “men” until we’re fully grown. Even if we grow up with no-good fathers the transfer of emotions experienced during that time often is not recognized in a relationshit for the woman. We, unfortunately, because of our makeup and societal influence, have to learn from bad experiences that we should protect ourselves, number one and HOW we protect ourselves , number two. If we grew up knowing this there would be no Natalie to author BR, nor would there be the proliferation of “relationship experts” giving questionable advice. I fully agree that we need to learn to see these men for who they are, looking beyond the the superficial charisma, the popularity among peers but also their unacceptable behavior. I’m simply pointing out that it is not easy and comes after much emotional devastation. Some women learn early and some learn a lot later in life. But for us all it is a hard road to travel. Thank God we’re the fortunate ones learning and re-learning self-protection and survival.
Serene (Tink)
Hey I agree. No arguments here. For one thing there was and still is this big shroud of secrecy among and about men. No one truly taught us about men and men don’t volunteer the information about themselves. I don’t think that is NOT on purpose. It’s not to a mans benefit to talk so much as It gives women knowledge and leverage to make a better informed choice…and its all about control, power, and again, ‘mining’ women with many many men. I don’t think we realize how much guys make a game out of women. Literally a game, not a team, a partnership, a game where he and whatever women he is dealing with are opponents. Its like these guys weren’t talented enough to play professional sports so they use their dealing with women as an alternative. They literally have ‘playbooks’ and strategies on how to deal with a woman. Pre planned.
I agree that no one truly gave us ‘the game’…even though many of us wouldn’t listen no way..but still. If I have a daughter, I will make sure to teach her ‘the game’ ahead to time.
Most of this dating ‘advice’ is crock. It plays into women’s desperation and insecurities. They know that its women who are the cash cows in this arena. They know there is no money to be make in writing dating books for men…and that’s a problem as unbalanced scales are essentially the problem in all relationships and making damn near 100% of the ‘advice’ geared towards the women is making it even worse. Teaching women how all the different ways how to bend herself into a pretzel while teaching men (if anything) how to be ‘pick up artists’, how to play women, how to ‘mine women’, how to get more faster without giving her shit. These ‘experts’ wont tell the truth about how a lot of guys just don’t want to be bothered with women outside of what she can do for him. Its in their best interest to keep up the allusion that these illusive perfect gentlemen who want marriage are everywhere, however, we women need to get ‘our acts together’ and change before these men will magically appear to us with wedding ring in hand. HA! I also agree that NML has to be the most balanced out here.
Wow, ljsrmissy. This is a take no prisoners post. You described ACMM’s profile exactly. He’s from that mine-all-the-p$$y-you-can culture, and he is considered a pillar of the community. One of the last things I said –or rather, texted to him, was that I felt like a prostitute – a BAD prostitute because I was having affectionless sex and I wasn’t getting paid for it!
ACMM was a particularly painful experience for me because he seemed to like the affection I gave with my sex, which is catnip for a codependent like me because we love to be needed and are predisposed to thinking it is our “job” to serve someone else. I took his body responses as signs of real affection for me, and had a hard time reconciling the lack of interest he showed in me, in the bedroom and out. Rarely a phone call just to talk. During my clinging to crumbs phase I had asked that he send me a hello text the next day, and he would, but a few times that text came very late the next day…which always made me feel pretty crappy.
Yes, we do have to watch out for ourselves. Have our own back. ACMM never mis-led me or future-faked. I think he has an advanced degree in AC-ism and has learned to never say anything that could be construed as leading a woman on. But the stories I see here, there are some prime AC future-fakers out there who will say whatever is necessary to get what they want in the moment.
We have to remain vigilant for our own behalf. Always remember and never forget, ACs take all they can with no remorse, no thought, and no interest in your well-being. It’s just how they are.
Elgie,
I keep it all the way funky as I like to say because we are grown women. Grown big pantie wearing women…many with daughters that are of dating age or will be dating age. What in the hell are we gonna tell them if we walking around acting like we have no more grip and clue than pre-teen and teen girls?!! We grown women are out here like little girls and it aint cute! I am talking about myself as well.
In your defense, you may very well be codependent (as am/was I), but how much of that has to do with just being a woman and nurturer. I don’t think that at heart we are doing anything much different from what are mothers and grandmothers did. HOWEVER, our mothers and grandmothers gave of themselves to ‘men’ who were VESTED in them (via marriage). Not saying their husbands were perfect or even healthy, (because many had another family across town) but these men at least made sure the bills were paid. What I am saying here is that women before gave of themselves to men who DID SOMETHING FOR THEM. Now a damn days, we women are selling our souls and everything else to ‘men’ that are not even our friends! These guys are not our friends! And they don’t do shiiiiit for us. They don’t even like us! Back then women gave of themselves to men who proved himself first. Now women are trying to prove themselves by giving of themselves to men that are not interested, damaged beyond repair, and/or don’t even like them from the beginning…..how in the hell do we think that is gonna turn out?
Ljsrmissy
Yes, yes, yes and yes.
When my now deceased maternal grandfather was 70, he had a physical thing going with the neighbor lady across the alleyway. He was living in a house, alone. The house was his by virtue of the woman he lived with dying before he did. I asked him if he thought about marrying the neighbor lady and he actually said “Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.”
These days, because marriage isn’t the only socially sanctioned way to live, we have no bargaining chips. Not that marriage is a “win”. My mother was pregnant with me and that is why my father married her, he was just one of those responsible types. But was that a ‘win’ for her? For either of them? They had a lonely marriage, hardly any loving moments passed between them that I can remember. It was all about responsibility. I think they were good parents in that they taught us discipline, and personal responsibility, and we had chores, and strict bedtimes, and limited TV access, and curfews, and they checked our homework and even did some assignments with us, and went to PTA meetings. The saw parenting as the job it is and they did it. But I did not see any joy in marriage.
My older sister had a different father. That was the big family secret that came out when she turned 18. It cleared up, for me, why it seemed my father was always harder on my sister, and why my father would sometimes make snide remarks about my mother’s morals.
Now my Dad is in his eighties and financially broke, yet there is still a woman who is trying to get him to marry her. And I see my Dad is a bully towards women. He is always chastising this girlfriend, as if nothing she does is right. She tries to befriend me and once said “I think your father is still in love with your mother.” No…that’s not it. My father just seeks to make a woman feel “less than”.
My mother once said about my sister’s MIA father – “I think I could’ve made it work with him.” Really Mom? The guy who disappeared on you when you told him you were pregnant? Yet my mother carries that torch for him. I never once thought my mother loved my father. She always talked to him with a tone of annoyance.
I guess I am just showing that our parents did not have the fairytale either. I think smart women figure out what status do they want. If you want “wife” – then you pick an available guy who you can tolerate for a long haul, you don’t go for romance first, you go for the one that fits your life plan, whose faults are not dealbreakers for you. Which means you have to have a plan for your life. I think that is what the wives who have no desire to leave their ACs do. They have a plan and they pick something that has a lot of the good things they can’t compromise on and learn to deal with the bad things that aren’t dealbreakers in their mind. Like Bill Clinton. I am sure Hillary knew what kind of zipper problem he had before they got married. But she had her eye on a different prize – not fidelity and romantic love, but, for her, stability and political clout. ACMM is an involved, present father who participates in the family and totally mentally and emotionally separates his philandering from his family role. I feel he and wife discussed these things before saying “I do”.
So when we meet these ACs, particularly the married or somehow-attached variety, they are only casting the role of “extra” in their lives. They’ve got that “main” role already cast and we have NO chance in hell of filling our life’s open role of “main squeeze” with that AC. ACs have a permanent revolving casting couch.
Elgie. That may be an old saying but it seems as though many men today still believe it, regardless of whether or not they’ve ever heard it. The nature of the male species. Anyway, I was quoting that same remark to my sister concerning the “so-called fiance” of my friend. He’s 56 now and she met him when he was 54. He has never been married. She is 3 yrs younger, been married, divorced over 20 years and has two daughters both in heir twenties. He had promised her about 18 months or so an engagement ring “before the end of the year”(2014). Well, here we are 3 months into the new year and she’s still patiently waiting. I say “patiently” because that’s how she is – super understanding and easy-going. This guy has probably resigned himself (unbeknownst to her), to the same. “Why buy the cow when I can get the milk for free?” Sadly, she may be waiting a lot longer. I wish I could shake her and say “Snap out of it.” I won’t even bring it up because I don’t want to hurt her feelings, and it’s not my business to try to steer her in the right direction. They may have a new agreement that I know nothing about. Hopefully.
Oh, and they live apart, 2hrs drive which they take turns with every weekend.
Exactly right.
And the men who do have the great job, looks, status, money, etc. have NO reason to be faithful to any one woman, wife or girlfriend.
EXCEPT for morals and upbringing. And MAYBE wanting to be a good example for any daughter(s) they have, or may have in the future (if they think that far ahead–most don’t).
I also wanted to agree that it is beyond disturbing the lengths that AC’s, users, and tricksters in general, will go to deceive and remain in control. And they are never ending with the bullshit. I have in the past confronted a guy about his bs in the most calm, cool, non accusatory manor, and he would just respond in kind with more bullshit lol. I knew to hang that mess up then. I post how I post because its just a different world out here now. Those little bits of advice that momma and aunts used to give us about men, we may as well throw that mess out the window now. The notion that a woman’s loooooove can fix a man, take whatever book that is in and burn it. We live in a society where narcs, users, opportunists,personality disordered, and sociopaths run amok. We only recognize these types when they kill and we see them on the news or on those real life who done it type shows but we forget these things run along a spectrum. I believe that society is inundated with these types, men especially. They don’t kill (that we know of) but they are predatory none the less. If there are men in society who will take ‘advantage’ of a a child or infant what more will he do with an adult woman?
Ljsrmissy, PREACH!.. You are speaking nothing but the truth.. You should write a book.
Yes, Missy. You’ve hit the nail on the head describing the ineffectiveness (being polite) of most relationship experts. They’re so ready to depict the woman as the only one with the problem. “Why can’t you get him? Why can’t you keep him? Here’s how.” That’s the bullsh*t mentality. They neglect the fact that there’s a plethora of jerks walking this earth who are puffing out their chests feeling like a god and why? Because there’s a plethora of women willing to bend, twist and turn themselves inside out to be given their crumbs which is all they (the men) have to give in the first place. You know, it’s bad enough when male relationship experts advise women to suck up the bad behavior and fawn over these AC’s, but you have female “experts” doing the same thing. I can think of one, in particular, who just nauseates me. And I like what you said about how there’s no money to be made advising men how to treat women but there’s a plethora (my new favorite word -lol) of books out there advising women what to do. Sooo
true.
Elgie. “ACMM never misled or future-faked. I think he has an advanced degree in AC-ism and has learned to never say anything that coud be construed as leading a woman on.” You hit the nail on the head describing the ACMM I had the misfortune to get involved with. Wow. Just writing this takes me back. One time he told me that if I thought anything of myself I wouldn’t be messing with him. Does that not beat all? AND, I STILL DIDN’T LEAVE HIS ASS, THEN!!! OMG. When they show you who they are, and much more TELL YOU believe them. OMG. That was a pathetic time for me. So glad those days are gone.
Yep Serene, of course when we chix have standards, live by them, do our due diligence, we are entitled, snobbish b@#$%&s. There’s no lack of dating advice out there; more a matter of a lack of raw material actually in a place to be in a relationship. Attended a charity event over the weekend; mostly parent types a generation younger than I. One sameish aged dude there which the folk I was with kept trying to interest me in was eyeballing me thruout the evening. Plethora of red flags; recognised him right off; perfect specimen of the old mining era wannabe hippie drug culture, unkempt, now doing odd jobs. Totally out of place at a venue of 100% educators and young parents. When it became obvious I was leaving, he started hitting on me big time, thus saving having to offer to buy me a drink during the actual event I suppose. Now, many dating sites out there would encourage giving the dude a chance, ignore the churning gut, the red flags, would encourage sleeping with him and taking a chance, ignore the fact that we were in no way compatible. Sadly, no site other than BR would tell you “good job listening to your gut”, “way to spot those red flags”, “way to choose you”.
Yes Noquay. I’m not familiar with other rship blogs but I know there’s none better than BR.
Btw, what was that ragamuffin even doing there? And what’s more thought he could get a “play” with any woman least of all you. I swear, no place is safe from these a-holes.
No idea; twas funny, heard other women in the room asking the same thing? Maybe he didn’t understand what the event was for though I thought “fund raiser for after school programs” was kinda clear. He must’ve felt like I would had I blundered into an NRA function.
You’re so funny, Noquay. We’re all hard-up for any attention we can get. Didn’t you get the memo? LOL!
Hey Noquay, it bears repeating: “good job listening to your gut”, “way to spot those red flags”, “way to choose you”
Well done!
Typo: I meant his behaviour was sociopathic or narcissistic (not I)
Yester-Me Yester-You Yesterday Lyrics
Artist — Stevie Wonder
Songwriters — Miller, Ronald N. and Wells, Bryan
Yester-me, yester-you, yesterday
What happened to the world we knew
When we would dream and scheme
And while the time away
Yester-me, yester-you, yesterday
Yeah, where did it go, that yester-glow
When we could feel the wheel of life turn our way
Yester-me, yester-you, yesterday
I had a dream, so did you
Life was warm and love was true
Two kids who followed all the rules
Yester-fools and now
Now it seems those yester-dreams
Were just a cruel and foolish game
We used to play
Yester-me, yester-you, yesterday
When I recall what we had
I feel lost, I feel sad
With nothing but the memory of
Oh, yester love and now
Now it seems those yester-dreams
Were just a cruel and foolish game we had to play
Yester-me, yester-you, yesterday
Yester-me, yester-you, yesterday
Sing it with me
Yester-me, yester-you, yesterday
One more time, yeah
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELPzdyXnlCU
“The truth was a mirror in the hands of God. It fell, and broke into pieces. Everybody took a piece of it, and they looked at it and thought they had the truth.”
~~ Rumi
“Grief can be the garden of compassion. If you keep your heart open through everything, your pain can become your greatest ally in your life’s search for love and wisdom.”
~~Rumi
Camillah
I really like that, its beautiful. Today i took time out to myself and i found myself releasing some of my pain and i was crying at times and later i felt like some of my tears had washed some of my soul so i could love some more another day (myself 1st then others). My recent suck it and see just confirmed for me i dont need to stop loving or being kind, just be more cautious of who i open certain places in my heart to. Everyone is not deserving.
Thank you for sharing that quote.
Camillah. Thank you so much for posting the lyrics to Stevie’s song. You know how when you’re younger you tend to listen more to the tune and the beat not even realizing what the words are saying? I’ve always been a big fan of Stevie Wonder and always knew he wrote meaningful songs, but that one got by me. Lovely words. Thank you.
Gals, I have to tell you about my experience last night. I went to a friend’s birthday party and this very attractive man sat next to me. I thought maybe it was my lucky night. He seemed quite interested in me too. We chatted for about two hours, during which time he would seem quite intelligent and charming but would occasionally throw out a bizarro red flag. They would be things like, “I’m such an asshole.” or “All my relationships have been disasters.” or “I normally hang out with 20-something year old women because all they do is say ‘yes’ and that is sooo boring but who wants to argue?” Yeah, just typing this stuff out lets me know he was AC to the core, but combine that with a very winning and charming way of saying these things, a handsome face, and chemistry and I’d sit there thinking, “Well, he just said the most AC thing imaginable but let me hear him out some more.” HAHA.
Long story short, he finally went one AC step too far and told me “You know, my ex girlfriend hit me, so I clocked her. Don’t ever hit me, because I DO hit back.” This was my cue to turn to my best friend and say “Let’s get out of here.”
I later found out he had once dated the birthday girl and had shown up uninvited and she had no idea why he was there.
When I told my friend the story, she said, “WHY would he tell you that?” and I said, “Because he WANTS me to know who he is. He figures if I stick around after that, then I’ve been given fair warning.”
I truly believe they tell you very early everything you need to know, but when you get that chemistry blurring your hearing, you are willing to dismiss, minimize and overlook what you hear.
Diane
I think you are exactly right. These men tell us who they are and figure they gave us fair warning. We have to chose to believe them! Good job.
Man…he was proud to be an AC, wasn’t he? Ungh. Don’t look back.
Diane. “I truly believe they tell you very early everything you need to know but when you get that chemistry blurring your hearing, you are willing to dismiss, minimize and overlook what you hear.” That’s gospel. That’s exactly what happened to me when he told me that about not thinking much of myself or I wouldn’t be with him. I must have been on Mars. Where the hell was I? And, he told me this over the phone! His mesmerizing power came through the damn phone lines! I still stayed with him another 3 months or so after that! Geez! I really had it bad. But you know what? I feel like I’m getting repetitive now. That whole drama was 4 years ago. So, from here on in, I will not go back. I’ve acknowledged my mistakes (to myself) because you all are surely not trying to be my judge and jury. Those days are over. I can’t deny they happened but I don’t have to live in the past and it’s not healthy to go back trying to understand. All it does is open up a new scar over the same site where the wound healed over a long time ago. There is no benefit in that once you’ve already learned the lesson.
I am reading old posts these days and found this quote from NML very fitting “If you make room for denial in your life, it leads to dishonest thinking, speech, actions, and relationships/interactions” (https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/the-truth-about-honesty-in-relationships-can-you-handle-the-truth/) I know I’ve been guilty of this and this is how I’ve betrayed myself and was an accomplice in the killing of my self-esteem. My denial did not CAUSE him to be an AC but I stayed after his weird confessions and actions and this it allowed for dishonesty (on both sides) to flourish. Funny how in the beggining you tell yourself you’re just being positive. But I need to be careful with this as now I know I am prone to being in denial.
Personally I have no problem putting a liar in the past once the spell is cast. It’s amazing how clear things are once you removed yourself from the situation. What I find extremely hard to do is forgiving myself for allowing others to lie willfully or future faking with me. It’s very disrespectful. They do that because they either believe they are smarter than you or that you are too weak to call them up on it. In my case, I would let it go because I never wanted to embarrass them nor rock the boat and cause trouble for the so called-relationship. I was that desperate that I dismissed my core beliefs and let someone disrespect and devalue me.
Also,I recently realized that I tend to be more forgiving once I am intimate with a guy. As if I was the sums of my vagina. I was less likely to raise hell on a d…ckhead if I was sleeping with him. I had that fear of being called a sl…t.
But no more, nowadays, I am learning to be genuine in whatever that I do. I am practicing to remove myself away from things the moment I realize they are not working for me. I have no intention of causing embarrassment to anyone, but I prioritize my self-respect over disingenuous relationships, this includes all types of relations.
I have been visiting this website since October, I am so thankful for NML and all the people for sharing their stories and insights. I am learning to love and trust myself, to stop assuming that others automatically value me or my qualities just because I can have a laugh with them. There’s nothing more dangerous to a woman than naivete.
“But no more, nowadays, I am learning to be genuine in whatever that I do. I am practicing to remove myself away from things the moment I realize they are not working for me. I have no intention of causing embarrassment to anyone, but I prioritize my self-respect over disingenuous relationships, this includes all types of relations.”
Right there with you, truthinclarity.
I am currently working in elementary education and it has helped tremendously with the issue of being true to myself and telling someone how I see things (my truth) and calling them out on their lies (you’d be amazed how many little ones will lie right to your face! :). I’ve learned to be kind but firm in stating my truth and staying in my truth, and just as importantly acting on that truth. That has carried over into my relationships with adults as well. Usually, with the kids they will fess up, but even if they don’t, I know the truth.
In the past I was susceptible to allowing myself to be manipulated into buying into other people’s truth and disowning mine. Or if I knew the truth and they disavowed it, it would drive me crazy…I wanted to make them see.
Thank heaven I don’t fall into that trap much anymore. If I do, I recognize I’m in the trap and set myself free.
“Or if I knew the truth and they disavowed it, it would drive me crazy… ”
Me too Veracity, and a little bit farther too: a number of family members and partly my ex told me explicitly “you’re crazy” when I pointed out lies and manipulation. Good thing I got wise and got out before going crazy for real. V.
Yes, it is a good thing, V. It could drive a person crazy if they stick around. That reminds me of a guy I had just started dating years ago and when I starting calling him out on his bad behavior and manipulations he said “I’m starting to worry about you”… gaslighting much, fella? Dropped that one pronto and blocked him.
So glad to be further on down the path! Veracity
I meant to say once the spell is broken. English isn’t my native language, I err with its idioms every now and then.
So true words. I fell for denial/”positive thinking”, hook, line and sinker. This guy told me when we started seeing each other he can’t feel empathy due to brain injury. But instead of realizing that hey, that means he would have no problems whatsoever with lying/manipulating/hurting other people, I took the “positive attitude” that he’s really giving it his all to be very considerate and selflessly help other people. So it can’t be that bad!
And about being more forgiving of a guy once have been intimate. I think some part of it is biological, that oxycotin and other feel good hormones want us to bond. One of the things they do is make us overlook the flaws of our partners, and I think in general that’s a good thing for a relationship (e.g. not raising hell about dirty socks on the floor :P).
But it can backfire if get intimate with the wrong guy. 🙁 And that’s where being naive comes in (as truthinclarity says, there’s nothing more dangerous than naivete for a woman). If you believe that just because a guy is making advances that he’d value you… (guilty big time on that… but I’ve learned. Or at least I hope so.)
Great post Nat and good to read ljsrmissy, Serene (formerly tink) and Noquay also. I have been reminded of the lessons in this post of late and am living my life accordingly. Life is on the up and up here. After three years of hell the roadblocks are cleared and I’m succeeding in the areas I’m working. Also, not one single abuser (friends, family, intimate relationships) remains in my life, after a long process of elimination and practicing strong boundaries, which took quite some time to fully grasp without backsliding (ie doubting myself and giving people “another chance”. I don’t do this anymore. When they’re done, they really are DONE with me now FOR GOOD!) Oh and BTW, I’m TWO MONTHS off tobacco and going strong. Life is not perfect but moving forward in a positive direction. About time! Best to all. x
Teachable. It’s me formerly Tinkerbell. You’ve been MIA for awhile. now. Glad to know that life is vastly improved for you because of your working on YOU. Feels good doesn’t it to be rid of all the a-holes who don’t add anything to your life but take as much as they can get. And kicking the cigarettes? Terrific! Keep it up. We’re here cheering you on.
Hi Serene,
Yes, I saw your name change. I like both names but congrats but your new moniker! I now picture you “ommming” all over the place in a crossed legged fashion on giant colorful cushions! LOL
And yes, life is great once we’re done clearing all traces of negativity away. My only challenge now is to keep things calm and on track. As for the cigarettes, I have to pinch myself as I can’t quite believe my progress. I’m taking this day by day though, and planning strategies in advance for any risky situations which seems to be working. I’m a not confident enough yet to be able to say that this is it for good but hopefully this will ensue as a result of my daily effort. 🙂
Thinking of you all and sending lots of healing light to those that need it. x