Set your own standards and determine your own value. It doesn’t matter what everyone else does – it matters what you do. If everyone else has done it and it’s not exactly worked out for them, why repeat their relationship insanity? It’s not about what other people are comfortable doing – it’s about what you’re comfortable doing and a lot of women spend their time doing stuff they’re uncomfortable with because they’re afraid that if they don’t, they’ll ‘lose’. You’re losing anyway. Never make it easy for someone not to have come up with the basics of love, care, trust, and respect in a relationship….you’re not that woman.
****
I don’t care if one thousand women have gone before me and they’ve all had sex with you on the first night or whenever you chanced your arm for it – I’m not those women.
I have sex when I feel comfortable and if that time happens to be when I feel more confident about where I stand with you and the values, qualities, characteristics that you possess, you’ll have to deal with it, or go back and have sex with one of the women that make it easier for you.
I don’t care if you’re used to corresponding by texts and emails and every other woman has put up with it – I’m not those women.
I don’t care if you’re used to disappearing and then coming back with little or no hassle. If you disappear on me, you’d better stay disappeared!
I don’t care if your ex didn’t mind if you wouldn’t hold her hand in public and didn’t mind that you’re not affectionate – I do mind.
I don’t care if all the other women let you date and shag them all at the same time. I’m not those women!
I don’t care if you’re used to getting a shag, an ego stroke, and a shoulder to lean on with minimal contribution into a relationship. I deserve more than crumbs.
I don’t care if ‘other women’ are more compliant and don’t expect you to be a decent guy in a decent relationship. I’m not those women.
I don’t care if every woman has been sympathetic to your commitment fears and let you coast through those relationships claiming that you’re scared and you need time. I’m not those women.
I don’t care if you’re used to getting your own way and having things on your own terms. I’m a person of value who is an equal party to this relationship.
I don’t care if every other woman let you go bareback because it feels good – strap up or piss off!
I don’t care if you’re used to dodging responsibility and accountability and blaming whoever you’re involved with for your thoughtless actions. I’m not that woman.
I don’t care if all the women you’ve been with have waited around for you to make up your mind while you reject them time and again. I’m not those women.
I don’t care if your ex let you do X,Y, Z. I’m not her. I’m not that woman.
I don’t care if other women have let you have sex with them when you have demonstrated or even said you’re not interested in them/don’t want a relationship. I’m not that woman.
I don’t care if other women when you’ve told them you don’t want a relationship with them have gone into overdrive trying to prove themselves to you so that you make them the exception. I’m not that woman.
I don’t care if you’re used to being with a woman who thinks you’re the centre of the universe and the only source of her happiness – I’m not that woman.
I don’t care if you’re used to being with a woman with low self-esteem that lets you control the relationship and define her – I’m not that woman.
I don’t care if you’re used to pressing The Reset Button and acting like nothing has happened and getting away with it. I’m not that woman. I will remember.
I don’t care if you’re used to controlling someone’s every move – I’m not that woman. Don’t even try it.
I don’t care if other women have believed you when you said you wouldn’t lay a hand on them again – I’m not that woman. I’m not taking my chances.
I don’t care if every other woman felt sympathetic to your One Time in Bandcamp tales of woe and excused all your dodgy behaviour – I am most definitely not that woman.
I don’t care if every other woman has put you on the deeds of her house or given you access to her bank account. I am not that woman. Are you crazy?
I don’t care if you’re used to having virtual sex and sending nude pics to women you met a hot minute ago on a dating site – I’m not that woman.
I don’t care if other women don’t mind if you’re married/attached – I do. You should.
I don’t care if other women let you call them up late at night and let you come round for sex – I’m not those women.
I don’t care if you’re used to women competing for you, fighting in the street and getting into all sorts of craziness. I’m not that woman.
I don’t care if other women have been prepared to ‘go with the flow’ when there is no flow or you’ve been flowing backwards. I’m not those women. I am entitled to be with someone who is not afraid to see a future with me.
I don’t care if you’re used to playing a cat and mouse game. I’m not that woman. You’re either in or you’re out.
I don’t care if you’re used to having your lame excuses like my cat was stuck up a tree/battery not working/The Busiest Week Ever/I lost your number etc accepted. I’m not that woman.
I don’t care if your mother and every other woman you’ve been with has let you do as you please – I’m not that woman.
And….
I don’t care if you’re upset because I won’t let you mess around with my head and my emotions now that we’ve broken up. I’m not that woman.
I don’t care if you’re upset because I won’t be your friend now that I’ve got tired of you rejecting me for the umpteenth time. I used to be that woman but now I’m not.
I don’t care if all your exes let you call them up and use them for a shag, an ego stroke, a shoulder to lean on, money, whatever. I’m not that woman.
I don’t care if you’re worried about what everyone will think of you now that a ‘good woman’ has left you. I’m worrying about myself.
I don’t care if the last time we broke up I let you call me up, sleep with me etc. I used to be that woman but I’m not anymore.
I don’t care if other women let you force your version of the truth on them. I’m not that woman and I make up my mind about my truth.
I don’t care if you’ve just separated or divorced and are looking to try on a new relationship for size. I’m not that woman.
I don’t care if you just broke up with your ex and are looking for a Fallback Girl to be a buffer and let you treat her like an option so you can avoid the pain of your breakup. I’m not that woman. I’m not your emotional airbag.
I don’t care if other women think that guys like you are the best they can do. I’m not that woman. You’re not the man for me.
I don’t care if me having boundaries and treating myself with love, care, trust, and respect writes me off from being with you. If being with and loving you means I can’t love me, I’ll choose me. Other women might be prepared to let you bust up their boundaries, but you guessed it…I’m not that woman.
I know it’s not easy out there but I know what I’ve experienced and to continue to carry the same baggage, beliefs, and attitudes and choose the same people different package and expect different results would be relationship insanity. Others may not be ready to get off the merry-go-round…but I’m not that woman.
Your thoughts?
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Awesome. I am taping this to my mirror. I am definately NOT that woman. Thanks Nat.
My thoughts? I think you are a Genius.
Thank you!
Incredible!
“I don’t care if you’re upset because I won’t be your friend now that I’ve got tired of you rejecting me for the umpteenth time. I used to be that woman but now I’m not.”
“I don’t care if me having boundaries and treating myself with love, care, trust, and respect writes me off from being with you. If being with and loving you means I can’t love me, I’ll choose me. Other women might be prepared to let you bust up their boundaries, but you guessed it…I’m not that woman.”
I’m crying – it’s what I’ve been saying to myself over and over. It’s what I wrote in my letter to him that I haven’t posted.
I’ll add one one:
I don’t care that you ignore me and expect me to come chasing you to stroke your ego. I used to be that woman. I will never be that woman again, EVER!”
I choose ME!
THANK YOU! Needed this today.
Nat, I just love ya. 🙂
Natalie, what a beautiful post! You are awsome!
This one gets printed out and goes in my purse……and it’s gonna get forwarded to all my female friends and even my 18 year old daughter who is just starting out her romantic life.
Thank God for your wisdom. Like i said before….
You.Are.Awsome.
Hallelujah sister!!
You just described the man I have spent 13 months trying to convince that I was different than all thewomen who came before me(that he liked to tell me all about) that he broke up with because she wasn’t “Ms Right.”
I am going to take these words to heart and use them as my mantra for any new relationships I enter into. I want to be that proud, strong woman who won’t kiss the ass of a man so that he will stay. I have compromised myself too much trying to change myself so I would be someone he would want to stay with.
What did it get me? Absolutely nothing. He broke up with me anyways. I love you and your site. Thank you so much! Kristy
Whoah….deep breath…there’s an awful lot here, and I feel empowered just reading it!
Might need to come back to it later though!
Thank you.
as ever.
I’m putting this on my fridge!
Nat-On this day before Thanksgiving in the U.S., I just want to let you know how thankful I am that I came upon your site just over a year ago. You have been a huge support system for me. When I was at some very low points dealing with my ex-EUM, your words of wisdom got me through those hard times. Thank you for what you have done for me and for countless other Baggage Reclaim readers!
Like Ramona, I’m taping this to my mirror! I have learned sooo much about myself after stumbling out of a miserable relationship and onto your site. Thank you!!! It all rings true to me! And “assclown” is my new favorite term that does help me keep perspective in check!
What a breath of fresh air – finally!!
I THIS!!!!!!!!!!!! 😀
also taping this to my mirror! “i don’t care if i did or accepted all those things in this list before.. Im not that woman anymore!! i love it!
that would be i LOVE this 😀
Great post!! I’m in the process of becoming more confident in my decisions and this will help tremendously. I have had the “but it’s never been a problem with other women” line fed to me and it has thrown me off balance and self-doubt. This is a great reminder that standing up for oneself is the best thing we can do in the long run. Yay!! Thank you!
Thanx, Natalie:
I just wish I had discovered your site about 3 years ago.
I love this! It’s going in my purse, on the bathroom mirror, inside the front page of my journal, on the back page of my journal. I think I’ll even buy a nice chic picture frame and hang it!
Keep telling it like it is! Keep keeping it real…
-Bernie
But you ARE a sensational woman who is on the ball!!! Stellar, thoughtful, and generous advice. If only we all had this mindset instilled in us from day one, what a different world this would be! While experience is undoubtedly the teacher that leaves the strongest impression, one can only hope that our sisters and daughters don’t have to learn about these mistakes first hand. We all need to spread the word and lead by example. Thank you, Natalie, for doing it with such eloquence.
Seriously, is there a “print only” option so that everybody can print this off in a handy format and stick it on the fridge? More to the point, is there a curriculum-friendly version so that everybody starting out can learn this on day one? Pure, utter gold.
“I don’t care if one thousand women have gone before me and they’ve all had sex with you on the first night or whenever you chanced your arm for it – I’m not those women.”
“I don’t care if every other woman let you go bareback because it feels good – strap up or piss off!”
I realize these are probably not meant to be taken literally, but they made me laugh! These two and a few others. If the guy is like these behaviors with other women, I don’t even want to negotiate. I don’t even want to tell him I want better. I would just rather walk away. My last AC fit a lot of these descriptions, and I’m old enough to not want to be in the business of changing a man. My ex-AC had a few issues that some of his ex-gfs did not like. So, he accomodated them while they were dating, then went back to his bad habits when they broke up. That tells me he did not truly change, that he did not respect himself enough to live as a decent man all on his own.
Guess what I am saying is that if a man does not make an effort to be a decent person in his own right, then I need to walk away and let him grow up on his own.
I think about Natalie’s article about how the AC is beloved by his community, family, friends, but doesn’t treat me decently. It doesn’t matter how he treats everyone else. It matters how he treats me.
Well, this is kind of the opposite of that. Would I want to be with someone who toes the line with me, but treats everyone else poorly? I don’t think I could, because somehow I would be afraid that relationship would blow up in my face somewhere down the road.
Another fantastic post Nat! Thank you so much for helping us all get to the point where we are not that woman……x
Framing this one!!!
Sad that we even have to reiterate this kind of information for the fact that there are lots of people in this world who look to chop each other down and take advantage every chance they get.
Everything on your list should be a given and it should go without saying. And if you truly live up to these standards, there’s no need to tell anyone because you wouldn’t even consider giving this kind of loser the time of day.
FeistyWoman: (from your blog)
“If a man is really digging you……….. He’s going to chase you long and hard and nothing is going to come between him and the possibility that you could become his.”
Not necessarily. The A/C I dated said, “All of my previous girlfriends have been the result of the woman taking the initiative.”
This is the first time I’ve read your blog. And funny I should decide to click your link from T’s blog to read.
I think I love you. That is everything and anything I’ve ever wanted to say and exactly what I needed to hear/read today.
Thank you. Just thank you.
Natalie, this is awesome and amazing. As another American just about to celebrate Thanksgiving Day here tomorrow, I also want to add that I’m so grateful for this site, your strong voice and your wisdom. If it wasn’t for you, I’d still be in a very toxic relationship, instead of happily single.
I still visit your site on a regular basis because it’s posts like this that help me to see how I’m going to create my next relationship — and it will be a much HEALTHIER one!
Blessings to you and yours!
I started reading your blog a year ago to help me with my self-worth after nearly six years with an EUM. And let me be clear, I was not really with this guy. He was in my life pressing reset whenever he wanted, and I accepted “rejection for the upteenth time.” It wasn’t easy letting go, but I come straight here to remind me to stick to my decisions.
I’m giving you a slow clap, because it’s posts like these that remind amazing women to love themselves first, and believe that the relationship they deserve is coming, and to respect it like it’s a natural occurrence, and not like a mars landing, when it in fact, arrives!!
Thank you!
OMG thank you for ALWAYS reminding me of my WORTH!!!
Natalie thank you so much for this blog and your book, which I’ve bought. I recently got out of a 2+ year relationship with someone I now realize is an EUM. This was my first experience with one and I fell for him hard. He was separated for 6 months when I met him and while he divorced quickly, he mentioned his ex who had cheated on him a lot throughout our relationship and how she was not supportive, ignored him, was cold, etc. It made me want to show him that I was the opposite of her and I was overly-supportive and overly-available to the detriment of healthy boundaries and we eventually got into that hot cold cycle you expertly describe. Now that it’s over I’m doing NC and trying my best to move on. One of the things I struggle most with is thinking if I had not been so overly-available while we were together, not been such a doormat, not been “that woman” would he have fallen in love with me? He says that I’m his best friend, he’s so attracted to me, he has never felt more connected to anyone…yet he can’t commit to me and I wonder if that is because deep down he doesn’t respect me for allowing him to bust boundaries. I know holding to healthy boundaries would likely have ended things earlier (your posts really help with this) and that you can’t go back and think that way, but I still can’t help torturing myself wondering if it could have been different if I had been more of a challenge to him. I know all I can do is learn from it and not repeat the behavior but any tips on how to stop doing the “what-if I hadn’t been a doormat would things be different?” would be appreciated. However I read your book, blog posts and all the comments and it helps me so much. So thank you Natalie, thank you so much and I wish I had found your blog sooner.
wish_i_found_this_sooner,
ACs & EUMs don’t stick with women long who throw down boundaries from the get-go. They want women who let them do and be as they please. It’s a vicious cycle. We get sucked into the vortex of pleasing them and can’t get out and are therefore disrespected and viewed as weak by the AC/EUM. Once we start the pattern, it can’t be undone.
So, I am saying that in my opinion and experience (I was over-supportive/over-compliant with an AC like you described), you would NOT have had a healthy relationship with your guy if you had thrown down boundaries . There are no healthy relationships between EUMs and women who love and respect themselves and maintain boundaries. He tires of not getting his way and she tires of dealing with a manboy.
For instance, I began to speak up and inject boundaries with my AC and he started extracting himself from my life because I wasn’t smiling and nodding my head anymore to his BS. He still wanted an occasional email from me to keep tabs and the door open to use me in the future, but I slammed the door shut recently by beginning NC.
I hope my ramblings have made sense. Don’t beat yourself up and press on, girl! NC is our gift to ourselves!
Best of luck to you. 🙂
wish_i_found_this_sooner,
I also meant to say that probably the best thing to do to stop torturing yourself about the “what ifs” is to read this blog and its archives every single day. That is what I do. It will infuse you with objectivity on your EUM. It’s hard to deny what these jerks are and what they did to us when we read it in literal black and white every day. I have scoured the internet for any and all resources and Baggage Reclaim is the BEST!!! How fortunate are we!
Another thing, maintain your NC at all cost.
Best wishes.
Firstly, thanks Natalie for another great post (my daughter is getting a copy too!) it helps me so much. Again, to have it in stark, black and white terms, in list form like this (like the boundary lists) offers no hiding place for the faint hearted! These blogs are empowering; they ellicit strength and self-belief, as well as awareness – and it resloves a lot of what confuses us and has us second guessing ourselves all the time – and many of us are in a place where this is exactly what we need to push ahead – we need to believe in oursleves, believe we are “entitled*!! And that althogh we have been that woman (in one way or twenty two) it’s not carved into a tablet of stone! Thanks. I believe!!
@wish i found this out sooner:
I used to have the very same thought. The answer is NO. These “relationships” only survive beyond phase one (or date one!) because we cow-tow to their disrespectful behaviour and unscalable boundaries and because we do not impose any boundaries of our own and let them walk all over us. We provide the oxygen; they breathe it all in!
If you had imposed your boundaries he would have walked, not stepped up to honour them.. and if you had not tolerated his crap he would have walked. It’s a no win situation. So long as you think there is something you could have done differently to make it work you are wedging yourself between a rock and a hard place. Yes, there is lots you could have done differently – for YOU! (and you/we should have, for sure) and if we had; it would have neded all the sooner.
This you must realise. I stopped putting up with my EUM’s ‘management style’ and started imposing a few boundaries of my own nearly four months ago; and… guess what? Haven’t seen hide not hair of him since. They just cannae hack it! And I would only “get” to see him if I continued to be one of “those women”. Guess what, I am not going to be that woman any more! So… it’s cheeeeeeriooo then!!… Mr EUM, pain in the ass!
Good luck with you and yours!
hi wish_I_found_this_sooner
I don’t know if what I have to say will help but I will give it a try and I will take no offence if it doesn’t.
I too have those annoying obsessive struggles and I know the agony you are experiencing right now unfortunately.
I read Nat’s post and for the most part I said these things to my EUM throughout our interactions. In the end I chose myself even though it took awhile. I think it was because I wasn’t positive I had all the answers and thought I could be wrong. It was afterall a learning experience.
When I told my EUM goodbye finally I said it was because I loved myself too much to put up with his nonsense.
I hadn’t found Nat’s blog yet but my new attitude is what led me to her blog. Now I have learned my mistakes, saw how I was getting on track, and have confirmation that I headed in the right direction. As well still have a journey to go.
Which brings me to my point, I was the challenge, I was the one that would tell him what I will and won’t put up with, and I was the one that did go back on my word at times and probably looked like a doormat in a few instances. However, for the most part I was putting up boundaries and sticking by them and he chose the girl to be his girlfriend that was the ABSOLUTE DOORMAT!
I wasn’t wanting to be the girlfriend, I thought deep down when I thought he was different than what I have learned he is that he might be the one I eventually fall in love with and vice versa, maybe. He never wanted a relationship for the longest time so at the very least I thought he would always be there in the back ground. A fall back guy by choice because he said he was happy to stay single for the rest of his life.
I get mad at times because I think why did he choose the girl that makes life so easy, doesn’t he want to be a better man for himself? Obviously he doesn’t and I will never understand that because I am always living to improve myself. I want to be the best me and I want a relationship with someone where we both grow together.
What I have learned in my situation is my EUM says he doesn’t love his girlfriend and he is not affectionate towards her and he tells me this as though he is saying he found the perfect girl for him because she doesn’t require him to love or show her he does.
I have to ask myself is that what I want and the answer is NO!
In other words, and I know this isn’t that comforting because I struggle with it myself, we have to keep focusing on the fact that we DESERVE BETTER.
I don’t care if your ex didn’t mind if you wouldn’t hold her hand in public and didn’t mind that you’re not affectionate – I do mind.
My EUM was always saying I don’t do this with the booty call girl, i don’t do this with that girl or this period and I would always say oh my I would expect that or this. He always knew he counldn’t get away with things with me. Just like you I focus on the negative and think is he good now to his girlfriend and I too could have had the relationship of my dreams by not being such a challenge (translated so difficult)? Then I stop myself and remind myself what and not be true to me and not have boundaries and where has letting go of my boundaries gotten me, NOWHERE!.
What am I doing now? Well I have my boundaries in tact because my life is peaceful, even though I want more excitement. I am not waitinng on someone to give me a yes or no if they want to get together. I am not waiting around for a guy to pick which girl he is spending the day with. I am not stating my boundaries for someone to try bust them anymore.
The reason your questioning yourself as to why he didn’t commit or fall in love with you stems back to the blame game. By asking this question your still looking to blame yourself for the failure of his lack of love towards you. Like Nat and most say, they had their problem before you, during you and most likely after you as well.
Again most of us do this and anything I am pointing out on this site about you pertains to me as well. No worries about pointing fingers just trying to help you sort things out.
Another way to look at this situation is are these guys able to fall in love in the traditional sense. We are labelling them as Emotionally Unvailable so ultimately falling in love would be impossible. I am sure many have been told at some point or another by an EUM that they are in love with us and I have and I can tell you it is not the kind of love or in love that most of us truly dream of or deserve. Many years back I told men that said they were madly in love with me that they don’t even know the meaning. This is way before finding Natalie and if she was analyzing my past relationships she would be agreeing with me.
I use to know a guy who would tell me over and over, You have to think enough of yourself and not put up with crap. I went on from there with a couple of more AC;s and few EUM’s so i didn’t get the message. Now I hope I get it, well I am working on it.
Since I found this site and my friends do point out all the time that I was not willing to put up with his crap and that is why he chose her. He told me way back when if he had to choose, he would chose her because him and I would never work out since I won’t put up with his Asshole ways.
If these guys are not relationship material and we know this by now, we have to focus on this somehow.
How I see the bottom line is, if you were the doormat for the most part and he walked away and I was the challenge for the most part and he let me get away.
We are both here on the same site basically in the same boat, so the outcome is similar. We are here because your EUM chose not to pick you Ms doormat and (whenever we see these guys with doormats all they do is take advantage and when they are dealing with challengers all they do is avoid or press the reset button in order to get the challenging ones to be the doormats and then they move on anyways) my EUM wouldn’t live within the boundaries I placed on him.
IN THE END WHO WANTS TO BE EITHER.
DOORMAT VERSES THE CHALLENGE ITS A LOSE LOSE SITUATION.
WE HAVE TO CHOOSE US AND THEY DON’T GET TO CHOOSE!
No matter what you would have done or didn’t do, you were in a no win situation. YOU SIMPLY COULD NOT WIN. your guy will do the very same thnig to the next woman he meets. it’s not you ITS HIM. A decent normal guy would have loved and appreciated your qualites and the sweet person you are. and if you had known then what you know now, you would have walked away much sooner. i was only with an eum for 4 months, he was set in stone for the first 4 weks, i told him off, he stepped up to the plate, supposedly sorted out his baggage and then went as cold as ice, just last week in fact. and that blownig cold is just devastating to your self esteem and leaves you completely bewilderered doesnt it? i had an idea he was eum but i just didnt want to believe it. you must believe he is eum and he’s no good for you, he wont change. you’ll meet someone decent. don’t focus on whether he respected you or not – i’m not sure they know what it is to respect someone because they are fundamentally selfish people and only think about themselves. hugs and kisses
Little Nickle, Fearless, MH & Audrey,
Thank you so much for your responses, I really, really appreciate them. I have been reading the book, blog and comments everyday and it has helped me beyond words. I know I still have a ways to go since I’m still doing the “what-if’s” on this one but I’m working on letting it go and all of your comments make so much sense and help a lot. A little on my story:
My guy was an EUM but he wasn’t an AC (never shady or critical) so he busted my boundaries first in a very subtle way. Our first eight months together the major boundary he busted was that he rarely planned ahead for anything (after the first couple months), so while we were spending 3 days/nights together a week I was keeping myself always available because I didn’t have firm plans. Also after a few months I would be the one to call him at night and make a lot of the plans we had in advance. However it did feel like a real relationship – he called me his girlfriend, held my hand/was affectionate in public, we knew each others friends and family, had a good intimate relationship etc. However in my gut I knew it shouldn’t be so much work on my part in terms of the planning and while I felt great when we were together, I felt anxious when we were apart.
After eight months he told me that he loved me. I was on cloud nine and thought it was real and after that I felt so connected to him that I started doing even more nice things for him. A month after he said this he started distancing himself – when I asked him what was going on he told me that I was so “nice” and that he “cared for me so much” but that he wasn’t ready for a commitment. Essentially he took back his “I love you” and the words you are so “nice” really stung me and felt like such an insult. That is where my what-if comes from.
If I had known about this blog and about boundaries I would have walked away at that moment, because the next year and a half after that conversation has been a horrible cycle of blowing hot and cold, telling me he loves me only when he is about to lose me followed by periods of very subtle coolness where I made it really easy for him to stay in the relationship. I didn’t think he’d actually leave me (how naive!) because whenever I would say we should break up he would cry and not even let me leave the room and then blow hot for a while…however at the end he did leave me when it came down to not being able to make a commitment.
NC has been a helping me let go and I am determined to stick with it. Thank you all again for your support, this blog is wonderful!
Little Nickle, Fearless, MH & Audrey,
Thank you so much for your responses, I really, really appreciate them. All of your comments make so much sense and help a lot. A little on my story:
My guy was an EUM but he wasn’t an AC (never shady or critical) so he busted my boundaries first in a very subtle way. Our first eight months together the major boundary he busted was that he rarely planned ahead for anything (after the first couple months), so while we were spending 3 days/nights together a week I was keeping myself always available because I didn’t have firm plans. Also after a few months I would be the one to call him at night and make a lot of the plans we had in advance. However it did feel like a real relationship – he called me his girlfriend, held my hand/was affectionate in public, we knew each others friends and family, had a good intimate relationship etc. However in my gut I knew it shouldn’t be so much work on my part in terms of the planning and while I felt great when we were together, I felt anxious when we were apart.
After eight months he told me that he loved me. I was on cloud nine and thought it was real and after that I felt so connected to him that I started doing even more nice things for him. A month after he said this he started distancing himself – when I asked him what was going on he told me that I was so “nice” and that he “cared for me so much” but that he wasn’t ready for a commitment. Essentially he took back his “I love you” and the words you are so “nice” really stung me and felt like such an insult. That is where my what-if comes from.
If I had known about this blog and about boundaries I would have walked away at that moment, because the next year and a half after that conversation has been a horrible cycle of blowing hot and cold, telling me he loves me only when he is about to lose me followed by periods of very subtle coolness where I made it really easy for him to stay in the relationship. I didn’t think he’d actually leave me (how naive!) because whenever I would say we should break up he would cry and not even let me leave the room and then blow hot for a while…however at the end he did leave me when it came down to not being able to make a commitment.
NC has been a helping me let go and I am determined to stick with it. Thank you all again for your support, this blog is wonderful!
he is still an eu even if he isn’t an ac. mine wasn’t ac either and when it was good, he was very loving, attentive, chatty, we got on really well and he felt like my best friend. i think it hurts more when they are loving, etc and then blow cold like you don’t exist. if he was more nasty, it woudl be easier to stop obsessing about him!!!! but you know what, blowing hot and cold is nasty and it is cruel and it is betrayal really. i feel betrayed; absolutely i do. keep with the nc and your self esteem and your happiness will come back. it must be so hard to have been with him for eight months. These guys are very intense when they’re blowing hot arent they?i guess that’s why they can hook us so much. if ever you feel like contacting him, just remember all of the times he let you down and all of the misery he caused you. if you feel like contacting him, put a post up here and we’ll help you out. i work monday to friday so i lll be poppign on here every day.;-) keep it up, you’re donig the right thing. i’m in the same boat as you right now, i was only with him four months and if i hadn’t found this site , i would probably have stayed with him and destroyed myself. these guys are just not worth the pain they cause.
thanks so much Audrey. I was with him for two years actually…I stayed with him after he told me wasn’t ready to commit to me 8 months in, that is when the hot/cold cycle began but the cold was subtle and we were still together another 1+ years during this time as exclusive boyfriend and girlfriend (exclusive he could manage it was just no committing to the future). So I have over 2 years total with him. It is tough. As today is Thanksgiving and last year he was with my family so I feel especially blue and alone this year.
I’m glad you found this site earlier and got out in 4 months. I don’t know if it hurts any less though just because you were with him a shorter amount of time, but know that nothing would have changed had you stayed. Thanks again for your support and know you have my support as well.
Thank you so much for empowering us women! I have been reading most of your blogs for less than a week now and it certainly contributed a lot to the woman in me. I even copied some thoughts in my notebook. I am not in a relationship right now but I am having this online thing with a guy for 3 months now. Nothing really serious going on between us but as I stumbled upon this site, I know I will see and think things on a different note now. This site is an eye-opener for me, a healing place for those women in need.
God Bless you, NML. Keep it up!
hi grace. i hope you are well. this post is perfect for me. and you were right in everything you said to me, grace, i just didn’t want to believe it. best wishes.
wow nat!! once again,u speak from a woman who has been there! you’re words are such an inspiration to soo many wounded souls! thanks from the bottom of my heart for taking you’re “testimony” to “pay it foward” GOD BLESS!!
Dang Nat, these past three days have been lie whoa! You are doing it girl. I have copied all 3 days of your gems. I’m having a little problem right now with a friend who thinks he can start something up then pull out then start up again over and over and over…I am at the point where I just want him to stay away now. Leave me alone. It is obvious that not only is he NOT the one for me for several (BLOOD red flag) reasons, he never stays consistent enough for me to get comfortable with him –which is a good thing when I think about it. But I seriously want to cut off now and mourn the loss of what I thought could be …
Ditto Angelface! We both need this along with NC! I too have had the same situation, but it has been going on for way, way too long! Let’s just do it!
Love it, I feel amazing after reading this. Six months ago, I had depression, anxiety and was on the verge of an affair with a MM when I came across your blog. You and the lovely women here have really helped me to see the light. I’m a worthwhile person and I don’t have to put up with second rate any longer!
Yet another wonderful post! This along with the other previous ones assures that if you follow them you will have the basis of what you need to be true to yourself and others! Bravo to you Natalie, and all the brave women who are trying to make a change! As you said before Natalie there is hope for me! I’ll add my thing to your list of I don’t care… I don’t care if you’re not ready for a relationship, if being with you is always going to be on your terms then I’ll just not be with you.
Exactly what I needed to hear. I waited for five years and always got the run around. Multiple cheating and drama. It was the first relationship after my divorce. Talk about pick a winner. I’m done
Natalie,
I just found Baggage Reclaim about a month ago. A friend who is a thoroughbred AC/EUM drove me to find answers to his unbelievably cruel, inexplicable behavior about three years ago. I have to say of all the books/articles/internet sites I’ve encountered, yours is the best and the most empowering for women.
It is so great because it doesn’t just allow us to sit and stew over how horrible the jerks are, but we have to focus our attention inward and ponder what about ourselves has accepted this treatment so that we can change it.
Because of you and your words of unbelievable wisdom, I left the twisted excuse of a friendship by instigating NC three weeks ago. I know it is the right thing for me.
Thank you so very much.
By far one of the best posts. I stumbled on this site 4 months ago and have probably read every article. Since finding your site everything in my past relationships has made so much since. I have recently cut off ALL contact with any guy I have had a past with. I stopped talking to them, changed my number, deleted them from all online networking sites, and have told mutual friends to not give me updates. I feel more like myself.
I place high importance on your site. I have heard for years that you have to love yourself, but nobody tells you how. I didn’t know that treating yourself with love meant setting boundaries and if anyone crossed them they were out. For that reasoning it has spilled over to other areas of my life. I left a job were a boss used me to make herself look better (she got fired a month after I left) Cut off friends that were “me, me, me” types, and kicked out a bad roommate. Now I have more time to care about the people who care about me.
By far one of your best. I discovered this site about 4 months ago. Since then all of my past relationships have made more sense. The one liner that used to do me in when standing my ground was ” but, your not compromising!” Since stumbling onto this site I have completely turn things around from myself. I cut contact with ALL the guys I have a past with. I stopped talking to them, changed my number, deleted them from all networking sites, and asked mutual friends to not give me updates. I feel so much relief now.
I had heard for years that you have to love yourself and have good self esteem. But nobody tells you how to do that. I didn’t realize treating myself with love meant setting boundaries and if anyone crossed them they were out. Your advice has worked so well that it started to spilled over to other areas of my life. I quit a job where my boss was using me to make herself look good (she got fired a month after I left), got rid of friends that were the “me, me, me” types, and kicked out a bad roommate. I now have more time to care about the people who care about me.
Can I get a Amen !!!!!!!
Today I went for a long walk and thought about the changes I have made in the last few months. I feel like a snake shedding its skin. It occurred to me that I am feeling better and another layer of hurt and anger has peeled off. I want to come out of hibernation. Since the break up and five months of NC, I have had ups and downs, woke up crying, felt hollow, felt desperate, angry and rejected, and like I was always going to carry this burden around on my back but now feel like I’ve gone over a hump , and I feel hope. It’s weird but it’s like a switch went on in me. Reading this site has helped me so much. This post is perfect for the start of my new journey. My new life begins today. I hope this feeling stays. Thank you Natalie!
Hi Jennynic,
You are describing the grieving process: Anger, depression, barganing, denial and acceptance.
Today you are on the acceptance phase of the process. The process unfortunately comes in waves not in a linear fashion.
The shedding of the snake skin is an excellent analogy of the process. However, I just wanted to give you a heads up that if the feeling doesn’t last and you go back through the other stages don’t be alarmed it is how it works. Just be happy you are going through the stages because those that don’t work through these stages stay in them forever or a very long time and they never move on. I have friends like this and it is sad. They didn’t allow themselves to grieve properly and see that there is light at the end of the tunnel.
You sound like you noticed that the pain lessens each time you shed your skin or in other words go through one of the stages again.
I thought I would tell you this because you mentioned you hoped you stay at this feeling (acceptance) and I have learned it doesn’t usually go that fast or simple. Many people on here usually are better from six months to a year, more towards the year. Doesn’t mean it has to take that long, just means don’t beat yourself up when you leave the acceptance stage again to go through one of the others. You are at least learning it is getting better and it is. I know how you feel because I am feeling the same as you but because I know about the grieving process I unfortunately accept it when I have to go through the other unfortunate stages.
good luck
I cried reading this. I was that woman, a lot of us were. Wasting time, such precious short time we have. Its so important to leave, grieve, change, be shattered by our experience so that when put ourselves back together we hardly recognise the doormat self that was.
Now I am this unique lovely artistic lady, still quietly strong, making a new life, doing new classes, painting, expressing, feeling safe, feeling peaceful, feeling happy and confident. Safe in the energy that I will never put up with unacceptable behaviour again neither in friends nor lovers.
I recognise the old her and wish the future me could have helped her get out of an unhealthy relationship, just as you are doing for us now NML. Through the medium of black and white letters its like you are in the lounge room saying these pearls of wisdom. I sometimes prepare for the day when you get the inevitable contact and I am ready with ‘you are not the man for me’. I only have to think and feel it, I don’t have to reply……
I certainly feel there is a ground swell of blokes out there sitting curbside going what just happened? Where are all the babes? They’re blogging?
Awesome!!! I love it!!!
Hats off
Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I just found your website and am so so so grateful for all the articles here, especially the 12 core boundaries to live by. And this posting, too, is genius and much needed right now. Thank you for helping me as I embark upon making a positive change for myself.
Best. Post. Ever!!!
Thanks Natalie for your insights and your voice. Women the world over benefit from your very practical wisdom. This is exactly where I am now. I AM NOT THAT WOMAN. NOT ANYMORE. It took me SOOOO long to be able to say that.
While I was reading this I was nodding my head and smiling and saying “yes, yes damn straight!” I loved ALL of these statements…they are all truisms to be recited everyday to remind us that we are not those women. not anymore.
Thanks Natalie, thank you so much.
Can we go back several decades and can you be my Mother so my future turns out differently because I know what self-respect and healthy boundaries and being treated with love and care look like?!?
Awesome post, Nat.
I’ve so been THAT woman so many times in so many ways.
I choose never to be THAT woman again.
If tomorrow I have more self-esteem than yesterday, next week I have more than last week, etc., then progress is gradually being made in the right direction.
simply brilliant…
Thank you, I share your blog with all my friends. You are wonderful.
I have been on this site for a few months now. This is my first comment. I actually have read many comments and posts and have felt connected in ways I never imagined. To see your experiences (different places and faces) reflected in countless stories and examples reminds you that what you think is unique to you…in the grander scheme of things never really is. And what’s even more surprising is when you read all these words and sit quietly with yourself and really, truly realize…that woman…that broken, insecure, desperately wanting to love and feel loved woman who is willing to compromise her values, her beliefs, her voice…her everything…she is me. And the funny thing is only you alone will know that she exists inside you – well– maybe you and a close friend or two who wonders (sometimes aloud to you if they’re of the honest type) why you keep beating your head not only against a brick wall, but a dead wall– or worse a wall that only exists in your mind. But honesty and objectivity hardly occupy the same space when the situation applies to you– while you’re still in it.
But after reading this brutally honest post, I am even more aware that “she” for me represents the girl inside of us – the one who wants to love, with complete abandon, men who were never around to see her when she was carefree to love that way. In other words these men never earned the kind of love and devotion that we are willing to give away so freely (and in most cases we give it away simply because they are a man). Thank you Natalie for your site and these beautiful, honest words and most of all thank you for having the audacity to simply be you and share your seeds of wisdom with all of us.
Thank you thank you thank you, I feel on my way to be that woman that takes no BS. Thank you!!
Wow! Did I need this today. My ex and I broke up 2 weeks ago after he wanted yet another break. I told him that I’m not going to chase him this time. Today’s his bday and I am fighting the urge to text him. Why would I do that? For no healthy reason except that I want him to think of me in a good light. Well, forget that!
I choose me!
Thank you Thank you Thank you for this site. It has been my saving grace for these last 2 weeks.
I am interested to know what the list would be like for men? or are they all such a load of irredeemable bastards that they are immune to feeling hurt or used?
I just thought of an analogy as I was falling asleep.
Imagine two rats in a desert: a gray rat and a white rate. Both rats are without mates and have half a package of crackers to live off of in the food scarce desert. Both desire more in their lives and decide to find a mate.
The gray rat stares at his half package of crackers and is sad. That is all he has to give a mate. Eventually a female rat comes along and shows interest in the gray rat. He breaks off half a cracker and throw the crumbs on the ground to attract her. She is hungry and so she eats. Satisfied for the time being, she allows him to mate with her. The next day, he repeats the process that worked the day before by breaking off half his cracker and throwing the crumbs on the ground. He knows his supply won’t last and so he rations it out to her. After they mate, he takes a nap for the evening. Eventually the female rat realizes that the half cracker rationing aren’t filling her up entirely and asks for a whole cracker. He tries to convince her that she really isn’t that hungry and gives her the same half cracker and crumbs. A few days later she feels the hunger pains in her stomach, she asks again for a whole cracker. This time he tells her that if she stays good to him that he will not only give her a whole cracker but two! He says that she should not expect so much from him because they are, after all, in a desert. Frustrated but hungry, she allows him to mate with her. He then goes and naps for the evening, satisfied with himself.
Meanwhile on the other side of the desert the white rat stares at his half package of crackers and is sad. That is all he has to give a mate. Eventually a female rat comes along and shows interest in the white rat. He gives her a whole cracker. She is hungry and so she eats. Satisfied for the time being, she allows him to mate with her. The next day, he realizes that his supply will soon run out so he climbs through a hole in a nearby house, sneaks past the mouse traps, sneaks past the sleeping cat, crawls up the cub board, opens it, takes out another pack of crackers, slips past the sleeping cat and out the hole back to his mate.
Ladies, the men we fall for are like the gray rat. They know they don’t have much to offer yet they take whatever they can get from us. They try to convince us that what we need is not worthy enough to be addressed. They attempt to mask their lazy efforts by feeding us an illusion of something more…if only we go with the flow enough or if only we take off the pressure or if only we keep sleeping with them just a little longer. They know they are limited in what they have to offer but they also know that if they feed us enough BS that we will somehow convince ourselves that we weren’t really that emotionally hungry for it anyway and happily feed off the crumbs because we think that is all we deserve and all we can get.
What we need is a white rat. One who realizes that even if he is a rat and doesn’t have that much to offer, he will do whatever it takes to contribute fairly to the relationship. He won’t let you starve and then turn around and blame you for it. He will man up to responsibilities and do the honorable thing because he knows that a successful mating takes two. The white rat doesn’t make his mate wait and wait around for him to decide if he wants her enough because he makes it known and shows it by his actions.
Feel free to copy and paste this around. It’s time to dump the lazy ass gray rat!
this is sooo good. i feel for her when “she allows him to mate with her” …
Cindy,
I was relating to this whole analogy especially when you mentioned that they have to convince us of what they are giving us is what we should accept.
I was always arguing or telling my “friend” that I wasn’t put on this earth to please him nor was I born purposely to serve him.
The bottom line is even when you don’t accept their crumbs you still walk away sad because you wanted them to not even try to serve you the crumbs to begin with. I feel just as hurt and angry as everyone on here even though I spent most of the time telling him to blow his ideas out his bum because that is how much they are worth.
Since my EUM was a long time friend who at first I thought was the nicest guy ever but I unfortunately learned over time he had really skewed ideas for relationships and interactions with others especially the female species. I didn’t want it to be the truth and at times I took his crumbs believing what he was feeding me. I still look back and think for the most part I said all these things that Nat listed, to him, but I didn’t learn to walk away fast enough, which is my regret.
I didn’t recognize that he was busting my boundaries. In many instances I would just say no the decision is made so its done and he would accept it to a certain level. Of course that is why I didn’t leave as soon as I should. It seem we were somewhat working things out. More or less I wasn’t willing to put up with things and he would have no choice but to accept my decision.
Examples of what I am refering too.
If he couldn’t give a yes or no about plans in a reasonable time I would say I am moving on and making plans with others. He never liked saying no and would say give me until this day or that day and I would say no I already made plans sorry. He would say no no no let me phone this guy back and see and I would say no the decision is made I gave you a reasonable time of two days or whatever and you couldn’t comply. The next time he would make a decision faster because he knew I would move on quicker. He would bust a new boundary and so it looked like things were improving but now I know they weren’t he was just juggling my boundaries and seeing which one to mess with next. He would always try to convince me like your analogy says well everyone else puts up with this and I would say basically I AM NOT THAT WOMAN AND I WON’T.
I cancelled trips on him like this, I cancelled many other functions on him like this. He always begged and tried to talk me out of it and I rarily gave in and now after finding this blog I am so glad I didn’t. I cancelled our friendship on this premise so to speak. The times I did give in showed him his begging could work but for the most part I wouldn’t give in.
One of the major issues is I still ended up here feeling like I lost out because I have trouble connecting that my boundaries, and love for myself, is enough. I don’t always connect that because I have them that he knew he couldn’t mess me around like he wanted. I once had a ex ac tell me that is why he wanted out of our relationship because he couldn’t screw me around. This EUM just says that I won’t put up with his Asshole ways. I keep driving myself and my friends nuts looking for other reasons to blame myself for why my EUM couldn’t be a better man and live out my deep fantasy of us maybe one day falling in love with each other because I always thought he was the closest to love I have gotten because he was the nicest guy I have ever had a close relationship with. This is my current demon I am fighting. He is not my one and only and there is better out there and this is the struggle I am working through. I will have to use get out of stuck on this one.
Before him I use to fantasize in my head that I want my next guy to fight for me and try and keep me and work on our relationship. Back then I thought when he was begging me to change my mind, or convincing me I have it all wrong about him, or telling me he will make it up to me that is what I thought he was doing, fighting for me. However, that was not the case and now I have learned that I want a guy to be like the white rat who sees the value in me and wants to have a healthy relationship with me.
I may have for the most part not accepted the crumbs from my EUM friend but I sure walked away thinking that is all I will ever be offered by men is crumbs. All I have ever been offered in the past by all my boyfriends is crumbs and I thought even though I am telling my friend I won’t accept his behaviour he was trying to shove it down my throat like the grey rat so to speak. It was like he was saying to me you have to take what I give no one is going to offer better and in essense no one to date has offered better.
Finding this site is the first hope I have been given that there is a chance of getting better out there I just have to change certain unhealthy beliefs which is what I am doing.
Because even when you walk away saying I AM NOT THAT WOMAN! You are still left with okay now that I told him, NOW WHAT???
I DO KNOW WHAT HAVE FAITH AND WORK ON THE INNER ME TO BELIEVE IT IS TRULY BETTER TO BE ON YOUR OWN THAN TO ACCEPT CRUMBS.
So many good thoughts in here. As a guy who has recently suffered at the hands of an assclown, I feel so much better after reading this.
Token Male, I’d LOVE to hear how a male has suffered from an A/C.
Me too. I want a man’s opinion and insight as well!!!
Absolutely Brilliant!!! thank you so much Natalie. This website helped me to start loving myself again. My ex really did a job on me emotionally with his passive-aggressive garbage . For years I stayed when I could’ve walked away—but didn’t know how. They are master manipulators. I still feel pain sometimes, but I’m finally getting over it and finding happiness in life again. I see him for what he truly was and the part I played in all of it. I am such a different person now and my boundaries are something I’ll never compromise again. No more EUM/AC for me. I am proud to say, I AM NOT THAT WOMAN ANYMORE!!!
So, so empowering and also heartbreaking as I realise the extent to which I am culpable in the amount of pain I have created for myself. I used to be that woman. For the first time, I realise it’s time to stop holding onto all that frustration and upset and forgive myself. There is only peace, happiness and self-love to gain. And I also realise that, if I had had applied these boundaries initially, there would have been no EUM relationships. I brace myself and accept the pain of healing to come and look forward to the future it will bring. I USED to be that Woman – I am NOT her anymore.
My love and thoughts to all those on the same journey. xxx
I loved your post. I agree with all you say and I aspire to do as you have done. I’m nearly there….but not quite x
Brilliant post! I laughed all the way through. I really am NOT that woman anymore. I do demand care, trust and respect from everyone now – friends and lovers alike. No matter how serious or casual an arrangement i have with a man, these are the things i now demand and i will not do anything that makes me feel uncomfortable. I don’t take it personally when i meet someone who obviously doesn’t want a relationship and, because i now ask for total honesty and only engage with people who i judge to have integrity, i get complete honesty from men and can then decide if i want to engage or not. It is absolute bliss and i am SO content right now.
Oh and i got a text from the ex EUM last night, after 3 months NC. The moron sent me a dirty joke! There’s no way i’m going to respond to this juvenile and pathetic attempt to see if the door’s still open. I am not that woman :).
Hey! Loved the post, though I believe it’s based on learning-the-hard-way experience. I personally feel that it’s not about standing your ground when it comes to being a party to a relationship. Isn’t love (or the the thing I refer to as love) supposed to be understanding and all about giving regardless of what you get. If both parties look on it that way there should be no ploblem or else they’re simply not meant to be together. It’s no use being in a relationship where you feel inferior or a tool for giving a boost to someone’s ego. If they don’t understand you you’re not on the same wavelength, pure and simple. And there’s one thing I know to be true – if it doesn’t happen by itself, it’s no good forcing it. You’ll know a person for you when you meet them. 🙂 Cheers!
4months of silence then a ‘Hi. How are you doing? x’
I mean really. wtf
Anyhow – GREAT list. Just wish it was business card size so we could hand them out to guys (or girls)!
Very hard, but I’m trying not to be that woman, as my EU ex keeps trying to see where he can get with me, offering sex without love and keeping in touch to see if the door is still open. Im NC but have relapsed and have to start again, he calls and wants to talk, to be friends(with benefits) and not to put anything of himself to get back to a proper relationship, one that he got terrified of and jumped out of. I now can see him more for the EU AC he really is thanks to this site. I’m loving me too.
This is just what i needed to hear today, are you psychic natalie?? lol. i’m going to live by these boundaries from now on. i won’t blindly walk myself into a situation because of my naivety and taking a man at face value – that’s just dangerous and i see that now, thankfully. he can bugger off with his frigging late night texts, and his frigging disappearing . i’m free of the BS and the lies and i’ll get my joy and joviality back. it was only four months but it feels like the longest time to have gone through this.
How about “I don’t care if another woman allowed your bad boy antics then cried foul and used them to smack your hand, control you and guilt you into kissing her ass, I am not that woman, I won’t play Mommy to your Little Boy.”
I have been pining away for an AC who prefers a mommy instead of a real woman. He’s used to the lifestyle of immaturity and control and manipulation, of his own and hers. I won’t do it.
Just had to add one to the list this morning after what I just received from an ex. Not my last one that I have been NC with for 8 months now but the one before him. So here goes…
I not that woman who responds to a thirsty text wishing me and the family a Happy Thanksgiving; just because its a holiday and that you think doing so will make you get a response back from me. We been done for 5 years or so now so how dare you. And the funniest thing is he text me every Thanksgiving and Christmas to see if he’ll get any kind of reaction. Its amazing how these wimps think. Enjoy your day ladies and Happy Thanksgiving!
Crikey, after 5 years! that’s unbelievable.
OMG! I have an ex who is just horrific, and he texted me every thanksgiving Xmas for 6 years. Finally, last thanksgiving I texted him back, “stop contacting me”
My new phone has call and text blocks.
Try 22 years. My old AC wanted to be friends on FB after 22 flippin years. All that told me is he has not changed!! LMAO
This is awesome! I’m guilty of being “that woman” on more than a few of these but this gives me something to strive for.
Natalie, thank you for all your wonderful insightful on target posts! I found this site as many of us have while dealing with an AC histrionic narcissist. Love your labels and terms so helpful. I am slowly recovering from my 2year involvement with a man I met while separated from my husband. I am in my 40’s, so is he. I crossed that first boundary myself which was my biggest mistake. I love the last 3 posts and will continue to refer to them. I was married for 14yrs have 2 young boys I am well educated I work in healthcare and education of nurses. But guess what, I was still ripe pickings for this out & proud AC. I am moving on but will not get involved with another man til I feel I am ready, til I am healed and until I know I can hold to all those wonderful boundaries.
I would like to share some insightful information that has helped me move on maintain NC and get my own validation from myself. If you have been involved with such a AC narcissist, it is often more difficult for you to let go, move on, digest the end and forget. Why? Well it comes down to the way we, healthy loving empathetic humans think, and it is called cognitive dissonance. These men truly do not feel, do not think and do not react like most “normal” adults do, to anothers pain. They are masterful actors, great maniupulators, and skilled socially often very skilled at sniffing out a source for their needed Narcissist supply. The feelings they broadcast to you, the drip-feed, future faking, the hot/cold,pushy/pull all are methods for them to maintain their needs, but the clincher is they often believe their own fleeting superficial feelings, we in turn believe them because they so skillfully broadcast them. BUT then when their needs are no longer being filled by us for some reason, the above bullsh*&t starts. AT that point we are thrown for a loop because we so fully believed. In order to move on, get a realistic perspective on this type of man, W Keith Campbell PHD , professor here in the US has a wonderful site, up-to-date studies etc. that has also been tremendously helpful. NC is a great step but the obsessive thinking, need for validation and overwhelming need for debriefing are more easily understood when you learn why the mind works the way it does. We did see good things, he showed us good things very often he believed those things, BUT he is truly incapable of feeling the depth, commitment, empathy and intimacy for sustaining a true relationship. Mine was out and proud, cheated on his ex wife many times, is a mate-poacher, had 2 new ones lined up, during our demise. Broke up the marriage of the newest one and they are so in love and its been only weeks since our ending. Cheated on me with them. I wonder what will happen next??? does anyone think he will change at age 47? Abused his ex emotionally then physically, and is an attention whore. Enough said, i still fell for him hard and deep, I did not know all these things, but i did ignore some red flags in the beginning, because i didnt keep my boundaries up. So ladies live learn educate yourself and forgive yourself, I am still aching and alone this Thanksgiving, kids with their dad, but I am healthy, smart, strong and going in to work to care for some very sick patients I am thankful that I can do that, and am no longer in a sick, toxic emotionally abusive, deceptive relationship.Yes all those AC toxic signs started to show up, i am now glad that I got out so soon… I am in therapy. It helps me to realize that he is actually a pathetic soul, and makes sense that certain men are are inherently like this. Not all mind you, I have hope.Blessings and strength to all of you, listen to Natalie and also take those small needed steps to take control, learn, read, therapy laugh, whatever, we will all be OK. Thanks from my heart I have needed this site!
Very intelligent and perceptive post. You have described my AC very well, and how I came to be hooked. I am still trapped in this toxic relationship, his charm and the sex are the magnets and the glue. I wish he’d switch off the charm, gads it would be SO easy to just walk away from him if he fitted the stereotype “abuser” profile. I wish he’d lose his temper and hit me, or hurl verbal abuse at me… my pride would then be activated and I would find it so easy to just walk away and never come back. The pain might hurt for five minutes but it would be like ripping off a band-aid, short and sweet, and far better than this long, slow, drawn out, drip-drip emotional torture as I cling on to him till my knuckles are white all the while knowing he is EUM and always will be.
If you say that he is an AC then you are already seeing the signs, the gut instinct is kicking in, his signals are already mixed. Are you having problems sleeping, nagging unease, tears after seemingly glorious intimate moments??? Women are definitely more emotionally intune, take a breather and listen and dont fight the fear. It hurts, I tried to deny what I was seeing, and it took a toll. He actually sensed that I was uneasy with the relationship, that is when he started with the scathing remarks, the pushy/pulling and hot/cold games. He verbally attacked my competency as a mother, would get angry at me because I had frustrating situations occur with the father of my boys. He being a divorced father knew the challenges. He is King Manipulator, knows my weak spots.
BUT the cheating is what pushed me over the edge, took a major blow like that, him test driving 2 others while holding onto the facade of us. I sensed his lies caught him in a few and played detective for the final wrap-up. He denied of course, but that was the beginning of the end. I went NC for 10 days, then he started up and I responded. I was a mess of course and started this long journey. He resumed his manipulation, tried to turn me into the other woman/booty call. I went along with mixed feelings obviously in emotional turmoil but my eyes wide open. I gave him enough rope to hang himself and he showed me his beautiful true colors. All along and til this day he says he loves me, yes he contacted me, Thanksgiving here in the states. He is now in a “relationship” with one of the 2 chosen girls. Poor girl…
I did not deal with this alone, my friends, some mutual to us both,helped me a great deal. Funny, when grown(mature40-50s)men, even say nasty things about their “buddy” You listen and learn. NC helped me these past weeks, and learning how his mind operates helped. Even him saying that he loves me today, that I am perfect for him, that he will always care,except that he doesnt want to raise my kids, sounded hollow. He even said that if he was not in this other relationship he’d like to be my lover. LOL. He admitted he pursued me heavily and he knew I had kids. He said he needs someone around him all the time, he says he has never been alone and I would not have been able to be there all the time.
Red Flag… for the next girl, maybe she to will learn the painful way. She even knew about me, the other one, and his attempts to keep me as booty call #2. The bonds I felt with our connection, the one caused by the hormone oxytocin, are weakening, but this hormone is like a drug to our brains and we actually go through withdraw from it. That is why I struggled and many of us struggle to break free. It is powerful.We can break free but we have to find other sources of pleasure, re-connecting with children, family, friends, new hobbies and activity. It is an actual withdraw process and takes time. But it does get better. good news is that the oxytocin bond will and can come again within a healthy truly glorious positive connection.
“The bonds I felt with our connection, the one caused by the hormone oxytocin, are weakening, but this hormone is like a drug to our brains and we actually go through withdraw[al] from it. That is why I struggled and many of us struggle to break free. It is powerful.”
I agree 100%. oxytocin can make utter fools of women! In my case, I allowed oxytocin (backed up by his phermones, his Mr Charming mask and his penis) to outweigh all the Red Flags and a myriad of truly ugly character flaws and many appalling behaviours.
wasted (and miriam below)
These guys are a waste of your time. You both have nice things to say about these men, to the effect they are not really ACs/abusers and are charming/affectionate. I don’t see that at all. I don’t know them but I see the effect that they have – you’re both unhappy, helpless and are/have been dancing to their tune. That is not the hallmark of a woman in a relationship with a person “with a good heart”. That’s a woman in a bad relationship. A good relationship builds you up, makes you feel stronger and supported.
You both think that if he had been more horrible it would have been easier to walk away. Not true. There are women on this site who have dealt with out-and-out ACs (criminals no less) and still can’t walk away. Why? Because they feel as helpless and indecisive as you do. How BAD does a man have to be before you say enough is enough? Would you put up with this unreliability from a female friend, an employee?, the plumber, your kid’s teacher ? (I hope not!). . Also, why does your decision to get out have so much to do with him? Listen to your own heart – if you are jumpy, anxious, unhappy, insecure then that’s your sign to get out. You don’t need to examine every inch of his being like a forensic psychologist looking for damning evidence – you have enough information. Listen to yourself, it’s all you have at the end of the day. Just you.
I don’t say any of this as a criticism, I have been through exactly what you are going through – there is nothing exceptional about these guys. The answer is the same – get out.
I agree with Grace. My EUM and A**clown had “good qualities” and there was never a time that he told me he would call that he didn’t. There was never a time when I called him that he didn’t answer his phone. There were, however, a few times near the end when I would call him and he’d ask me if he could call me back in 5-10 minutes – and he would call back. He was consistent with keeping in touch with me – yes. BUT, it’s now been rather clear to me that even with “reliability” – that was just phone calls. I couldn’t rely on him to see me, be honest with me. All the time he was calling me – he was probably seeing the very woman that he’s now living with. His good qualities, however, don’t belie the fact that he’s still the jerk who was such a coward that he called me on the phone to break up with me and tried to smooth it over with “it’s just a break” “I need some space”.
Oh, and he’s also been ‘reliable’ in trying to keep me hanging on a string. I’ve been 3 months NC, and am going into my 4th month. Well, A**clown gave me a 28 day break…and he called this morning around 10 a.m. – probably after his new girlfriend left for work or a hair appointment.
Yeah, he has such good qualities. He’s still not giving up in calling me to see how I’m doing. He’s so concerned that he just has to get through to me at some point, so he keeps calling – even after I’ve told him he’s dead to me and that it would be wise to just lose my number and not bother calling me at all. Yeah, his integrity and strong solid character just won’t allow him to hear a word I’ve said. Now, that’s a good man. (The last paragraph is SARCASM, of course) lol!
The fact still stands, that apart from possessing some good qualities, they are still betrayers – creeps nonetheless.
@Grace
“These guys are a waste of your time.” I agree 90%. Why only 90%? Because it’s been a learning experience: I will NEVER let a man treat me like this again.
” You both have nice things to say about these men, to the effect they are not really ACs/abusers and are charming/affectionate. ”
Sorry, you misunderstood me. Mine is an AC, a narc, AND he is also very charming and very affectionate. The charm and affection are masks, acts, False Selves, but we as women experience them as real. So, both statements are true (i.e. he’s an AC and he’s charming).
“unhappy, helpless and are/have been dancing to their tune.”
Agree mostly. I’m very happy when we’re having sex. It’s having to ever have a conversation with him that makes me unhappy. Guilty as charged to the other two though.
“You both think that if he had been more horrible it would have been easier to walk away. Not true.”
You cannot speak for everyone, Grace. My radar is very senstive to physical and verbal abuse. I would walk away instantly from a man who inflicted that on me. However, what I’ve never experienced, and therefore had no defence against, is the charming, smiling, butter-wouldn’t-melt-in-his-mouth manipulator.
“How BAD does a man have to be before you say enough is enough?”
Depends on how powerful the things pulling me the other direction are.
“Also, why does your decision to get out have so much to do with him?”
Now, that’s a really good question. Because women are indoctrinated generally to go along with what the man wants? Or because if you are accustomed within that particular relationship to letting him make all the decisions?
In my own case, I emailed my AC last night saying I think it would be a good idea not to see each other for the rest of the year. And I’ve been hanging on waiting for his reply… but why? Why didn’t I write: “I’m sick of your AC EUM narky ways, your arrogance, selfishnes, presumptuousness, stinginess, overblown sense of entitlement, lies, manipulations, poor me monologues, I cannot bear your company any longer, I’m going NC, never contact me again and I hope you rot in hell.”? (Actually, I quite like the above and will try to pluck up the guts to copy and paste that to him in an email later.) The only reason I didn’t write that is that I am still a tiny bit scared of burning my bridges back to another tumble between the sheets, that’s why!
I don’t say any of this as a criticism…– get out.
Didn’t take it as one. I hope we all get out in the end, but it’s going to be on each individual’s own timetable, not yours or mine.
@Wastedlove
I sympathise with your situation. My ex is not a narc (I am pretty sure of that). But he is text book EU (and possibly something of an assclown, but I am glad to say I am now beyond the point where I care to analyse him further. I know enough because I have suffered enough through the hot then cold, pull me then push me, intimate yet distant, loving yet hostile behaviour. It doesn’t matter what you call it – or why he is what he is- a rose by any other name is still a rose – or a thorn in our instances.)
I tried, as you have mentioned above, to ‘put my foot down’ with him many times, but I was always afeart to shut the door, to cut off my options completely, to not give him any route back in… so my attempts were half-hearted. I was not commited to ending it. So I know where you are coming from on this one.
All I can say is that emailing them to tell them ‘what you ‘suggest’ happens now, i.e. that you “think it would be a good idea not to see him for five months” is non-commital. You are now thinking of emailing him with an even stronger message to outline all the “reasons” why you think you should not see him, again – this too is non-commital.
I have been 4months now (virtually) NC. I have told him nothing about what I “think” should happen now. I have not made any “suggestions” to him, I have not told him I am “not contacting him”. I have had no discussion with him at at about “what is happening”.
Partly the reasoon for that is because I do not see the point. What’s to tell him? He will KNOW I am not “seeing” him, he will KNOW I am not “contacting” him – because I am not doing it, so he will figure it out all by his wee self! This is not something you need to tell them or drop them an email to tell them! (he never explained any of his dubious disappearing acts to me!!). The very fact that you are sending emails to tell him you are not contacting him only tells him that you are, in fact, contacting him! They are not daft.
The other reason for not “telling” him what I am doing is because when I started out on this course of action, I was till weak and vulnerable (still am to a point, but much less so) and I would not have been strong enough to cope with putting down to him ‘in writing’ the absolute finality for myself. So I decided to simply take the action, try my best to stick to it and hope that the longer I stayed in NC the clearer things would get, as I had been told on this site that this is what happens -and it does!! I decided to take action and try to take that action one day at a time. It is working for me, so far.
So I never made any “big statements” either to him or to myself. I simply knew (for the first time) that I had to do right by myself, impose some boundaries for myself, pick up my sense of self respect from off the floor, hold on tight to it and never let it go again. I stopped focusing my thoughts on him and tried to stay focussed on what I needed to do that is good for ME. So, Grace is right, you are focussing too much on HIM, on what the next thing to say to HIM might be, on what HE thinks, on what HIS reaction might be etc…
I understand what you say about ending it for good with no possible retraction – I felt like that. I was scared to jump off the cliff end (that feeling kept me in that relationship for years). But I don’t feel as if I did have to jump off the cliff end – this time I have not experienced that same level of fear that I did in the past when I ended it “for good” and went out of my way to tell him so! I didn’t jump off anything. I just stopped doing what *I* would usually have done. I just put a stop to behaviour of *my own* that had fuelled the relationship… and guess what? It all seems to have just chugged to a halt. I set BOUNDARIES and I tried to stick with them. I have. That’s is what it takes. No cliff end. No jumping. Just boundaries that will save you from continuing to chuck your self-respect down a drain with these men.
The weird thing is, that once you choose YOU – choose to respect yourself, the rest – the end – just naturally follows, because these relationships only survive on the premise that YOU trade in YOU, that you trade in your self -respect. That is the price. That is what you need to understand. Once you decide to stop paying it, they will go away, because there is nothing in it for them any more and you are no longer fuelling their behaviour (or your own).
You said in you last post, wastedlove:
“I will NEVER let a man treat me like this again.”
What men do you mean when you say that? All men? Or all men except for this current one?? Is he not included in that statement?
Perhaps you should revise your statement to this:
I will NEVER let THIS man – or ANY other – treat me like this again”.
There is your strating point. Then you start to get somewhere.
Good luck
F
@Susan
It still amazes how “generic” these AC’s are. I swear we were involved with the same guy. 47, blah blah blah. My exAC had his exFBG lined up this summer through our demise. I also believe he interfered with her in engagement to another man. Last I had heard, her sister said he was a great guy (the one she was engaged to), but then she left him to go back to my (our) AC and she was living in another state!! Guess what – they are no longer “friends”. Took my AC only 11 weeks with her – who knows – she may do it over and over again with him like I did. BUT I AM NOT THAT WOMAN ANYMORE – YEAH!! 84 days NC and I am excited for the holidays WITHOUT him – YEAH!!
Aimee
and all of you who find support like I have here, I am still continually amazed at the similarity in many of our experiences. I still find myself feeling pain and sadness, but the pain almost feels muted as time moves on. In its place is an awakening sense of peace and relief, and I am learning to be less harsh with myself for falling in love with such a despicable creature. I am learning to take care of me and also to address my issues relating to divorce and setting boundaries with an alcoholic mother. The A/C creature even used to play head games with me, he called it “reindeer games” his name for the cat & mouse game. I still have flashbacks and memories, which at first were all painful because they centered on what I was losing when losing him. Now thankfully the flashbacks are those that reinforce the true creature that he is. He fits the Player, Somatic Narcissist serial Cheater Alcoholic abuser Psych profiles. I just wish that I never found him so attractive, so physically enticing, so intune to me, so charming, so fun and so spot on in meeting my needs. But that was all in the beginning, when my narcissistic supply load for him was high. I can now admit I thought of breaking off but I felt often times that he was the lesser of two evils to deal with. The sex was amazing, and he always spoiled me with $$, we shared laughter and quiet times too. I am learning that he may have served a purpose in my life by making me focus on my real lack of boundaries and fears and I now hope to finally positively deal with ME.
He knew I was getting wary of him, and I started calling him out on his manipulative behavior, comments and stunts. I still held on to hope though. I am a healer and teacher by profession, a mother and caregiver by nature, the perfect victim for such a man. But victim no more!!! I am more disgusted in him than anything else, but I do fear my future somewhat. Hell he ingrained the phrases “I love you, your perfect for me but I don’t want to raise your kids.” I have no need or desire for a new father for my boys but the man needs to care for all us in some manner doesn’t he? Mind you He knew I came with kids from day one, 2 years ago, and pursued me relentlessly even with the warning from a good man, good friend, that he shouldnt lead me down this path if he has no intention of following through.
Told me just the other night on the phone the same “loving” words, said he’d be with me now if I didnt have kids, said our sex was the best and said that I would take him back if he didnt want a relationship with the OW, I laughed, but it hurt too. Those statements proved what an A/C he is. the FBG/OW is now his main squeeze, his ONE, and she has no children and is 13 years younger. I respect his choice for less responsibilty now that his daughter is in college, but the handling of our entire relationship, and especially the demise, shows what a slimy creature, albeit brilliantly packaged that he really is.
He is currently under fire from the Exboyfd of his new squeeze, the guy he poached her from. I hope her ex finds a way to keep his dignity, but I also hope that my A/C be on the receiving end of some pain, maybe a cold-cock to the face and gut???!!! Sounds good doesn’t it. I crave peace and serenity, he repulses me and I will not answer his calls again. I am not that woman anymore!
Another stunning post Natalie – every word is true. I am not that woman any more. I feel strong, confident, and have self-respect and self-care. I don’t need validation from a man child who does not want to give it but wants to play games and waste my time. I will no longer let him.
I learned something fascinating the other day during mediation. The mediator called my ex AC on his lack of coping skills. We had entered into a conversation in which I had said a number of things on this post – that my version of what happened was as true and valid as his and if I could respect that he saw and interpretted things differently, why could he not offer me the same respect? He refused, saying his version of “reality” was the only one. The look of horror on the supposedly impartial mediator’s face was totally worth every single thing I had been through.
Anyway, the conversation then turned to coping strategies. She was concerned that his only means of dealing with the hurt and anger he felt after I had rejected his friendship and called him an assclown was to begin a smear campaign against me to devalue and attack the source of his hurt. It got me to thinking about what my coping strategies had been in the past and what I have learned now. There was no question that when the relationship ended, I had no coping strategy for it. I did everything I could to avoid the pain of the rejection, hung on in pointless hope and embarrassed myself on a few occasions. Then I found this site and a few other sources of information and inspiration and began to change my thinking, adopt healthier habits and beliefs, learned coping strategies like journaling and really learning to feel my emotions without trying to control them. The insanity went away, along with the uncontrolled behavior and impulsive reactions that now fill me with regret. Its how we cope with these relationships – the rejection, the pain, the running hot and cold – that really define who we are and determine how well we hold onto our core and that image of ourselves as a strong, confident woman that this post so beautifully details. When I can comfort and care for myself, I can weather any storm. I no longer desparately “need” him to validate me or love me or fix it. I can do all that, and with greater love and respect than he was ever going to offer.
I am no longer that woman – I can cope with the pain and learn to chose better next time.
Debra,
Thanks for sharing that; it’s a very interesting and insipring comment. Since we are usually the only ones privvy to the way these guys handle the ‘relationship’ we tend to wonder if we are making too big an issue of it all, but it just goes to show that when their attitudes are revealed in front of another, impartial invividual, that other person is also shocked by them. There’s validation for you! If you ever needed it.
Good luck to you. You are a better person than he is. He is still “that” guy!
Debra,
That is a brilliant testimony to this site if I have ever read one. Thanks for sharing! A similar thing happened in divorce court when both sides of lawyers AND the judge came out of chambers laughing, and when I asked why, they were laughing at my ex’s unrealistic behavior and revenge like demands which he felt were completely innocent and insisted his lawyer bring up even though she advised against it. It is validating to see how delusional they really are once we step out of the pile.
“I don’t care if you’re used to pressing The Reset Button and acting like nothing has happened and getting away with it. I’m not that woman. I will remember. ”
My A/C accused me of “dwelling” on things because I kept calling attention to his “pressing the reset button.”
Also, even though you have covered a MYRIAD of “relationship sins,” there is one I feel should be added (it’s one I’M guilty of….):
“My pleasures and fun are just as important as your pleasures and fun. I will not submerge my pleasures and fun and yield to yours. You will spend equal time with me engaging in my pleasures and fun.”
Absolutely fabulous!
For anyone who has a burning desire to HAVE contact-THIS is what needs to be said. Thankful for people like you Natalie who bring the real talk to the table.
Lisa, I read the link. OH MY GAWD! The A/C I dated had 70% of those symptoms.
To wish I found this:
Same here, my ex was EUM but not total AC. He simply never wanted any commitment including any planning. I always felt uncertain as to when I’d see him again, the anxiety was terrible.
Otherwise when we spent time together, he was very nice, courteous, encouraging, affectionate, the whole nine yards. This is why it was harder for me to go NC, he has a good heart but no commitment to responsibility.I do miss seeing him but I come first now.
Miriam,
I understand exactly what you mean when you say that the anxiety was terrible. I have or had the same relationship! I say have or had because he is constantly breaking it off with me, just to come back to start again. It was also exhausting …never knowing when I was going to get a call. He would be in the area of my apartment, call to know if he could stop by to talk. Which was usually him proclaiming that he was sorry that nothing had changed and that he was only here to see how I was doing? Which out of my need to hold on to him..would allow him to have a shag. Which at first I thought was love, but after he was out the door, he wouldn’t call for days. Then tell me that he dated 3 other women in 3 days but they weren’t for him! But weirdly some how I felt relief from that. Thinking oh now I can move on because this was the final straw.
I now have gone from girlfriend, to friend, to friend with benefits, to the other women in 2 yrs! After today when I need to find the strength and I will go through this post again and again, my motto to him will be:
“I don’t care if other women (including me) have let you have sex with them when you have demonstrated or even said you’re not interested in them/don’t want a relationship. I’m not that woman.”
I realize that I can only control me and my actions. Even though I have been guilty of thinking the sex is so great that it will keep him. I always knew that it really doesn’t make a difference if you have been managed down to think that the crumbs are some how okay. Because they are not!!! The anxiety is too much. And the waiting for him to choose me is torture and looking in the mirror is me saying what is wrong with you don’t you have a bit of self-respect? I’m working on that.
Almost every one of these is or was me. But I’m not and wont be that women and longer.
I can be the one that chooses now, and I chose me!!!
Lily, thank you for your wonderful post! My “relationship” exactly like yours, first – girlfriend and now a FB, and it is for three years now, and I cant give him up, what is wrong with me?!!! I read all books of Natalie and posts and it is all great and I agree with everything she says but I cant use all my knowledge by actions:-(
I am so embarrassed to admit that I allowed this AC to threat me like that during almost three years, what a waste of time:-( WHEN I FINALLY LEARN? I think I need a brain transfer….
I need to embrace the pain, the sting of rejection, the reality of both sides, the fear of abandonment, the loneliness, the betrayal, and on and on. I will then get to the other side and know that I can cope and care for me. I will be a better and wiser person for it. If I feel all those things as deeply as I can, they will serve as reminders for future reference to keep me safe. I WAS THAT WOMAN! I am reminded of a song that my 21 yr old daughter played for me during one of her break-ups. “I’m not who I was” by Brandon Heath, a very beautiful song I think. Thank you Natalie and ladies for sharing, I am inspired!
So beautiful!!!! Thank you for these words of inspiration and for helping women everywhere to love themselves 1st!!!! 🙂
What an awesome post. I went to see my own family for Thanksgiving. I drove my car all by myself in the snow, and managed just fine without him this holiday. I am thankful that he has not responded to my less than intelligent initiatives to re-engage, and that my friends and family say I have never looked and acted more happy than I do now. I am thankful for the courage to walk away from him and to my own future. Thanks for your inspirational writing.
Natalie,
What an angel you are. Even the most successful, self aware and confident women among us fall for “those guys”. Your post today reminded of all the reasons I said goodbye to my “assclown” of two years….yesterday….
At Grace, Lilly
Grace: yes, I see it now after 3 months no contact. After working on myself since, I see that he was a total waste of time. The bad gut feeling was what ultimately made me go NC. He is as unreliable as they come, problem was I needed his validation. Now I know that I don’t need anyones’s validation but my own. This was a great learning experience though, I feel like I’m finally growing up and being comfortable with myself in my own skin. Lots of self improvement is planned, but now I know I don’t need any more bs in my life, I’m better off alone than with any ACs, I’ll patiently wait to meet someone worthy.
I especially liked the part about the “disappearing acts” . I agree, if you disappear, STAY DISAPPEARED!
When my ex acted horrifically, and I would call him on it, instead of a discussion, it would be a horrendous blaming session and then he would disappear, reappear a few months later, and pretend nothing happened. When I would call him on his horrible behavior again, he got all upset at me for bringing it up. And I just said, “just stay gone… stop bothering me”
and he texted every Xmas and Thanksgiving for about 5 or 6 years, with no contact from me.
Talk about desperate.. These men are desperate. I am still on his mind after six years? How sad.
Thank you, thank you. Marvelous list. If it were the lyrics to a song I’d memorize every stanza and make it my talisman tune. Shared it with my best chum and she is equally smitten with the list.
I am NOT that woman… but I was, in many respects (ironic choice of wording) and being present with myself keeps me from being that woman again.
Brilliant stuff you share. Thank you.
My situation is exactly like WastedLove’s is. It is so hard. This guy is wonderful to me but insists on not becoming committed to me. He wants to continue to date around but he does not push it me my face. He tries hard not to hurt me and I know that he likes me a lot. I can tell by his actions. He buys me things, takes me places, and has me over all of the time (we do not have sex everytime he see’s me. As a matter of fact we have been dating for 7 months and have probably slept together 5 times and I did not sleep with him until our 4th or 5th date). However, I am the one always making the plans to see him. This last time after I cooked him Thanksgiving dinner I told him that he is going to be the one to make the next plans. I told him that he is going to have to put forth some effort if he wants to see me anymore. I am going to start dating more and not make him my priority any longer. He lives an hour away from me so I only see him on the weekends. I have been wondering since I left his house yesterday when and if he will make plans to even see me again. Maybe if I start dating other people more and find someone that I am interested in other than him, it will make it easier to move on. I know that sounds terrible but I am pretty darn sure that I love this man. It is so hard! I have never in my life have been in a relationship this difficult. It is like it is constant work and none of my other relationships were like this. They were just good and fell into place. I have to do the no contact and pull back here and there and play hard to get in order for him to contact me sometimes. Just weird as hell. I wish that I felt strong enough to just walk and see if he would follow I am just too afraid at this point that he wouldn’t. I have saved this site to my favorites so when I am feeling down, I can refer back to it. I feel so sad.
Feeling
He likes you a lot but that is clearly not enough for you. He tries hard not to hurt you but that isn’t enough either. To be honest, if had a shred of decency he would break up with you and free you up instead of stringing you along and taking up your precious time. He is getting something out of this, and this is working for him. It ain’t working for you.
I wouldn’t be so quick to see another man as the solution. Why not be on your own for a while, enjoy your own company, reconnect with your friends and family, develop your own interests. Men are not the answer to our problems or a fix for difficult times. You need to be in a good place yourself before you can find a good man. Otherwise, there is the very real danger that you’ll just end up leapfrogging from one unworthy man to another in a desperate attempt to avoid any pain and, yes, responsibility.
I say this because I did it myself for 20 years and wish someone had told me 20 years ago what I know now.
He’s not worth your time. Get rid of him.
@ Feeling-the-pain. Your situation is similar to mine. Never mind bookmarking, the best thing you can do is to spend ALL your free time on this site until you have read every page and every comment. This site has done more to bring me to my senses in just one week than eight months of trying to work WITH him to build the kind of relationship that suited both of us.
Also, most importantly, I am pretty certain that you are misinterpreting what NC no contact means. You say “I have to do the no contact and pull back here and there and play hard to get in order for him to contact me sometimes”
NC (as I am interpreting it) means no contact because we need to break our addictions to these men. It’s not a manipulative strategy to get a man back. It is not playing hard to get — it’s being impossible to get because you don’t want him in your life any more. That’s my interpretation and I hope others will confirm.
“I wish that I felt strong enough to just walk and see if he would follow I am just too afraid at this point that he wouldn’t. ”
Yes, same here. I’ve been thinking the identical things for months — what game can I play to “make” him want me, chase me, commit to me, follow me, realise we are meant to be together. That’s what you want, too, isn’t it? Well read every page and comment on this site and you WILL start to wake up out of your dream and realise this: IF he wants you he would ALREADY have taken steps to secure your relationship (by committing, etc).
If you want my advice, here it is: firstly, decide if you really do want THIS man above any other. Is he just a bit wishy-washy about commitment or has he got deep issues? Is he in fact the type of personality you want, or would you need to change him? (If the latter, don’t bother, go NC now.)
Then write to him, and tell him straight exactly what it is you want. Don’t be afraid, don’t hold back. If you want marriage, say so clearly. If you want monogamy, again, be straightforward, clear and honest. Don’t whimper, don’t grovel, don’t compromise, don’t whine and don’t threaten. Keep your tone steady and polite. Tell him these are your minimum requirements and if he cannot meet them, there is no future in your relationship. If he replies with anything short of what you want, then reply that the relationship is over and go NC. Genuine NC, not a strategy to bring him to his knees but a strategy to get you over the addiction.
The thing is, whatever you write and whatever he replies, you will not be able to change his basic character. You’ve got to take him as he is, or not at all.
Yes it’s painful, REALLY painful (believe me, I have sobbed myself stupid over my AC until I nearly vomited) but it really HAS to be done. I’m only three metres down the road ahead of you on this road to recovery, I never dreamed I’d get to this point, never dreamed I’d ever write what I wrote to him last night. I’m still wanting him desperately, but then when I gave up smoking I wanted a fag desperately, but my longing was not a sign that cigarettes are GOOD for me, was it?
In my own case, there is no point in my writing to my AC with a list of what I want in the hope that he will meet them, because (a) he’s not the kind of man I want a proper relationship with and (b) I know that he would not give me anything on my list, even if I did. This is because his entire personailty is flawed and cannot change, but this might not be the case with your b/f.
Hope this helps, I wish you all the best, keep us posted.
Isn’t amazing how when we think we are alone in our experience someone else seems to have read a page from our own personal diary and placed it on the website? Every time I read a post I feel less and less weak for my past behavior and feel not alone. I am so grateful for having found this website when I was at my weakest. Although it took me a year to get over my EUM, I did it because of the website and posts from other individuals who seem to be sharing my life. I come back frequently for reinforcement and I feel a sense of sisterhood in the coming back. My web therapist. Thank you everyone and especially to you Nat for creating the site. Be well everyone.
Bish — you took the words right out of my mouth! Yes, I concur with every single sentence you have written above. This blog is saving us from so much, giving us “strength-in-numbers”. We are a true sisterhood.
Thank you! This expresses how I feel even if I haven’t been as faithful to no contact as I’d like to be, I’m on a no contact for life plan now. I’m not that woman anymore. As the Japanese proverb goes “Fall seven times, stand up eight.”
I love that! (Fall seven times, stand up eight)
“I don’t care if other women have been prepared to ‘go with the flow’ when there is no flow or you’ve been flowing backwards. I’m not those women. I am entitled to be with someone who is not afraid to see a future with me.”
To use Nats words “or ‘drip feeding me’ – THAT is not a FLOW!!”
“I don’t care if you’re used to playing a cat and mouse game. I’m not that woman. You’re either in or you’re out. ” Come to stay or stay away!!
I found the perfect poem in the front cover of “How to Survive the Loss of A Love”. It’s the perfect description of how the “hot and cold” can tear apart the heart. I’ll post it if anyone is interested or if I am allowed.
Hi Aimee,
I’m interested in the poem – post it! or tell me the page…i am pretty sure I own that book.
Nat – I hope it ok that I posted this!
Limbo – “How to Survive the Loss of A Love”
My life has fallen down
around me before —-
lots of times —-
for lots of reasons —-
usually other people.
and most of the time
I was fortunate enough
to have a large lump of
that life hit me on the
head and render me numb
to the pain & desolation
that followed.
and I survived.
and I lived to Love again.
But This,
this slow erosion from below
—- or within—-
It’s me falling down around my life
because you’re still in that life
—- but not really.
and you’re out of that life
—- but not quite
I do alright
alone
and better
together
but
I do very poorly
when
semi-
together.
in solitude
I do much
in love
I do more
but
in doubt
I only transfer
pain to paper
in gigantic Passion Plays
complete with miracles and martyrs
and crucifixions and resurrections.
come to stay
or
stay away.
this series of passion poems
is becoming a heavy cross to bare.
Copied from the front on “How to Survive the Loss of A Love”, can’t seemd to find the page number. Great book, another is Necessary Losses.
So very true – I absolutely relate to that 100%. thank you for taking the time to write all of that of out. I might go try and find that book …I read it years ago after a divorce and remember it being very comforting. Thanks Aimee.
This is the best post I’ve read in a REALLLLY long time. I want to send the entire thing to my ex-boyfriend.
@sediqua22
He text 5 or 6 years without any contact from you? Shows you just how lame he was doesn’t it? My ex from 5 years ago text me on Thanksgiving. Not my ex that I have been NC with for 9 months now;although he’s made several wimpsy attempts to reappear and contact me but got no response. And they always wait until holidays to poke back in. I agree; if you dissapear stay gone. Popping back up months and a year or so later doesn’t mean a thing has changed with these ass clowns.
I found this post and this blog from a link up at another site. I’ve read further and found your posts on not being the OW and on knowing when/that he isn’t going to leave “her” for “you”. I shared it with a friend of mine in need of some relationship advice; she was surprised that I would read them and agree. You see, my husband and I practice ethical nonmonogamy. The key word being /ethical/. We don’t cheat; we don’t lie to each other or our other partners. We do, however, make mistakes and myself in particular have fallen for the wrong person. I value what you share here and especially like this post.
Thanks!
No matter how many days/weeks/months you stay in NC there are days when you have to stop yourself from tryng to get in touch with them. I have questioned my sanity on ocasion when the wanting, longing, or whatever you want to call it for him is so strong, i do anything just to get him out of my head. I have even created a txt message but never intended to send it.
It’s a funny thing that last year i sat alongside him and told him i thought i should ‘set him free’ because i thought i was holding him back from things he might want to do. You see, i dont like flying – he does, i dont like confined spaces – he does and there are lots of other things he ‘likes’ which i dont. His reply was that ‘ i dont want to be set free, i am happy with you’. Which since our relationship ended because of his cheating confuses me. If he was happy with me and the way things between us were, why then did he feel the need to add another female into the equation i did not know existed? This is one of the things i cannot get my head around, we had a fantastic physical relationship together, we were both always so fulfilled, we laughed, we cried, we enjoyed each other’s hobbies and togetherness and THEN he spoils it all because i could NEVER accept sharing him with anyone else knowingly. Of course, i did not know i was sharing him with someone else and i was so hurt when i discovered his deception. I trusted him implicitly and feel kicked in the teeth.
For me, there is no going back, things would never be the same i am certain of that, so i stay away in NC, i hurt, i cry on occasion, i feel totally gutted for the what might have been, was, and could have been. He is a hard act to follow but definitely AC/EUM so i go onward getting over him, or at least knocking him off his pedestal, and hopefully when healed i can try to fnd someone else to share my life with.
My apologies for being late to this. Putting my agnosticism aside, gotta say Amen & Hallelujah!!!
It’s amazing what women will put up with just to have a warm spot next to them in bed. Please know that you’re worth so much more than that. We all make mistakes; learn from them, dust yourself off and try again. Walk away from the assclowns and, if you’re a heathen like me, give ’em the finger while you’re walking away. 😐
Wow… Betta than “Sham Wow”! This list just went on
& perfectly on! Left no stone in my EGO’s mind unturned!
The truth is ladies & gents, for every emotionally
unavailable, man, woman, friend situation we attract into our
lives, is an equally emotionally unavailable self! It’s true, they
may do the meaner, nastier things & we get the shorter end
of the stick, with all our seemingly kind gesture’s. But water
seeks it’s own level, & humans too, attract our own
emotional levels. Finding recently, this site, this list ( and
reading as fast as I can other posts & watching youtube
videos) helped me to wake from the coma (I kept myself in). I kept
pointing the finger outward when in reality all these fello’s
& also women I’ve attracted as friends, over the years,
have only been mirrors!!!! It’s not about them ever! It’s what’s
inside of you, when you feel love & respect for yourself,
you will draw like a magnet the same! I have a saying ” I love
myself enough, not to allow others not to”! With these recent
insights I’ve received from Natalie, I feel like I have the last
few pieces of my 1000 piece puzzle all completed! My plee’s
& cries & yells of “why does he do that” have ALL
been answered without any doubt! I have the “no contact” rule in
place, now the only emotions I’m making myself available to, are my
own!!! MORE VIDEOS NATALIE there like medicine for me!
Lola Exactly. The penny finally dropped (after 20+ years of
crap relationships) with counselling and reading this site. My
counsellor said to me “You must have low self-worth to be in these
exploitative relationships. Why else would you?”. I had to concur.
We need to work on our value to ourselves and see ourselves as
someone worthy of OUR OWN love and protection. Also, if I play
games, rely on my sex appeal, manipulate (however sweetly), fail to
listen to what the other party is saying, ignore my
conscience/values, steam on ahead without stopping to think, lie to
myself, am cynical about love/relationships, or if I’m afraid, if I
am aloof in the relationship, if I’m not open and honest, then I’m
bound to end up with an EUM. Because I’m acting like one myself.
It’s a bitter lesson but worth learning.
Hi all, I’m in day 9 of NC. I’ve been sitting on the
internet reading everything available about being the other woman.
I cannot believe how similar our stories are. It is like you were
all here with us. I don’t know how I did it for two years. Last
year, after the most miserable holidays of my life, sitting at home
alone while he was with his wife and family texing me, I promised
myself I would not be in the same position at Christmastime 2010.
As Christmas 2010 approached, I found myself precisely in the same
position. I did not realize it when it was happening but I started
the “when are you leaving her” discussions repeatedly. The excuse
of I’m waiting until my daughter leaves for college in summer 2011
shifted to I can’t leave my wife so soon after the death of our son
and my daughter may be staying in town to go to school.
Fortunately, I watched a program that night on cheating spouses and
discovered that this is standard. They don’t leave. They keep
making excuses. I don’t want to be that woman, the other woman. He
actually finally understood my despair as this will be the first
holiday without his son. He ended it. He realized he could not do
this to me anymore and that because he loved me, he couldn’t put me
on the sidelines anymore. He has not attempted any contact and
neither have I. I’ve used the time to get my act together. However,
his break-up speech sounded too good to be true. He, like all the
others, is a master of manipulation. I expect something after this
weekend. I’m ready and I’ll be strong. I’ve written two scenarios.
Scenario A which contains actions I would take to get on with my
life and Scenario B which contains the sadness and despair I would
have to continue to endure as the other woman. If he contacts me,
should I send it to him? Because he was married, we spent two years
at my house. In addition to being an AC, he was cheap so I don’t
have a lot to throw away but he invaded my house. Everything in my
house and my back yard reminds me of him, including what used to be
my music. I can’t get rid of my house, my yard, and my music. How
do I reclaim my house? Thank you for this site and for all your
articles, posts, and comments. It has really helped.
Runner, “He realized he could not do this to me anymore and
that because he loved me, he couldn’t put me on the sidelines
anymore. ” Please do not mislead yourself by thinking he did the
honorable thing: He knew your were serious and the pressure was on,
he had to get out. If this guy cared about anyone but himself, he
would never have put his wife and children through this, nor would
he have strung you along. Trust me, he will be looking for someone
who places no new demands on him, he’s looking for attention and a
good time. Married men are a no win!
Allison is right, runnergirl. You need to get out of this
situation. Don’t send him anything. He doesn’t need an explanation!
He knows better than you what position he has you in – married men
having affairs keep many secrets and tell many lies – to everyone!
-you don’t know the half of it – you are walk blindfold through a
minefield in these situations. As for reclaiming your space and
your music – try not to wallow in sentimentality over what are just
“things”. They have not been touched by “the hand of a god”! Don’t
idolise him. He is just a another human being ( he is not a god or
a ghost!) and not one that has behaved at all well to you or to his
family. It is your home – not his; your music, not his. You don’t
need to claim anything back – it’s still yours. As the other woman
who does not want to be that woman anymore… maybe this will help:
this is not just about you and your feelings for a man… it’s also
about a mother, a father, their children, a family – and one that
has already suffered the loss of a child. You are in the fog of
“love” (that love should conquer all). but sometimes “love” has no
business conquering all – and it does not so much “conquer” as it
does “destroy”… sometimes “love” has to step aside. Be the bigger
person here…you won’t regret it. You will regret it if you keep
hanging on. Walk away… knowing it is the right thing to do… the
only thing to do. Take care and good luck. F
Thank you so much Allison and Fearless, you are exactly
right. The pressure was on and he knew he had to get out. He is a
politican, so he knew he knew precisely what to say to appear
honorable. He is about him and a maintaining a family man facade.
Thank you for the thoughts about my house and my music. It is my
house and my music. I don’t have to reclaim anything. Sheesh, I am
in a fog. I am deifying and villifying him. This “love” was
destroying me, his wife, and his daughters. It certainly conquered
and destroyed me. I do feel the relief that has been expressed by
so many others. I won’t send him anything. We talked, fought, and
cried for two years about how awful it was. You are right, he knows
what he has done. Living a life filled with lies and deception is
not living. I’m not walking away, I’m running away. It’s day 11 of
NC and I’m feeling better everyday. You have helped so much. I’m
going to hike on MY hiking trail, listen to MY reggae, and work in
MY back yard. And wash MY sheets! You are great. Done wallowing in
his crap. Thank you. I’m not that woman, the other woman.
@runner
As for reclaiming your space….maybe some ideas. A bit of feng shui/int des view. Clean it, floors, walls, windows. Go to town. Shift furniture into new positions, swap pictures around, a new rug can make it feel like new. Personally I am pretty big on getting a new mattress if its possible. I just have a thing about memories in beds. Wierd I know. Still I got one after divorcing, in fact a whole new Muji bed. I slept a whole lot better. Soz swinging a bit off topic here, but sometimes its nice to focus on practical stuff, not just the emotional fallout.
I find home space so important. I also had a life knapper, well we only stayed at his pad, maybe 4 times in a year. So my place was really consumed with memories. I painted walls and made it feel like new. It helped. It is an interesting tendency of the EU phenomenon that they imprint our space more, that way they don’t suffer the triggers as much after breaking up. They just fly fly away…..
Hey there Fearless, I’ve read a lot of your posts on this
site and you are so spot on. Thank you. I went for a hike today on
MY hiking trail, I worked in MY back yard, and I lit MY fire. I
also bought candles for ME. They were on sale, caught me eye, and
my first thought was I don’t “need” them, he isn’t coming over
anymore. I stopped in my tracks and bought the candles for ME. I
like them. Tomorrow, I’m going back and buy more because I like
them. I am stunned with how much I did for him rather than me.
Thank you so much for your advice that I did not have to “reclaim”
MY house and MY music. I’m waiting on the music thing, however,
because I don’t want to relapse. It’ll come. I deleted all the
“love songs” he sent me on utube…cheap MF. Threw away a few
little things and need to buy new sheets tomorrow. Now, I’ve got to
delete all the emails and text messages before I forward them to
his wife! I’m still pissed off and want to smack him hard. But, I
was complicit in the lies and deception. Thus, I want to smack me
too. I really liked your post about not sending him a text or email
saying that you aren’t going to text or email him. Your actions by
not texting or emailing him spoke way louder than any text or
email. Day 11 tomorrow.
Hi Ruth, Great suggestions. Thank you. You are right about
how they imprint our space and then just seemingly fly away.
Sometimes for me focusing on the practical stuff helps with the
emotional fallout and vice versa. Before reading your post, I
started cleaning my den. The rug is a great idea, I need a new one
anyway and we spent a lot of time on the rug by the fire. I’m going
to have to settle for new sheets though, can’t afford a new matress
yet. Oh dear what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to
decieve. I’m going to go clean the shower and the bathroom and buy
new rugs for there as well. Thanks sooooo much all.
I coined a phrase a few years ago, when I caught on to what
“EU” men do, when I allow them to do it, because I was EU to myself
as well. And that is, keeping me “emotionally hostage”. I would
feel lonely, wanting emotional companionship & there my
little lap top was, ohh so ready to bring it to me, in the form of
“chat rooms” & other lone-lies (interesting word huh?) They
would come on fast & whisk me & my imagination away
quickly. I got to feel some kind of worth. Some kinda “I was
someones, one & only”. Like I was the bomb! Had all the
right words & smilies to keep their attention. “ohh I gotta
take this call”, “go to the bathroom”, “eat dinner” “sleep”… “can
I add you as a friend?”, “let’s chat again tomorrow”! Ok byeeee
xx’s & oo’s:)… And then nothing… a day passes then 2
weeks, 3 months later it’s him up on my screen, “where have you
been”! Another senario, Mr. UE a million miles away… Ohh he/the
many’s, wants to chat for days on end, then he wants to call
& talk for days on end & lead me on, with a variety
of things, my lil’ self so longs to hear!… But I’m wise to it all
now, even the serial text-ter’s, that feel so exciting, till I
realized that all those guys wanted is what I call a “Texting
Floosy” I was getting wise all on my own, lil’ by lil’, but Natalie
just put the friggen huge cherry on top & gave me the final
dose of reality I needed! With all she offer’s here & on
her video’s. Yes some of these “long shots” do work out, we’ve all
heard the stories, but I’m learning to follow & listen to
my gut, more quickly and doing my own “not connecting” through
those avenues. One popped up this very morning, saying “where have
you been? You really rocked my world”!.. i didn’t take the bait,
just clicked him off, for him to go use his “bait” some where else.
I really wanted to say “yeah I rocked your world huh!” “what was
that, like 2 months ago?” “well take that rock & clunk
yourself upside your head!” I am feeling so free of the lies, I
told myself… No more!
Thanks NML! I’m in day 8 of my second attempt at No
Contact. I was about to break down but reading this post helped me
sustain the courage in believing that I am worth it. My assclown
stood me up. I thought as always that I’ve done something wrong,
but I’m positive after reading this website – he’s playing with my
mind. I’ve read this post over and over again to realize that I am
worth it, and that I shouldn’t let anyone let me think otherwise.
Even if my own perception of what happened is only my perception…
I deserve someone who will atleast take the time to sort through
and talk about what happened—not just disappear AGAIN!! Nope. I’m
worth it. And yeah it’s gonna be tough to let him go…but I am
WOMAN!! I am strength.
Haha that is extremely funny/ironic because my ex AC did the EXACT thing 2 weeks ago after 4 months of no contact. Except mine is even crazier and put a “doc” at the end of it…”how’ve you been doc?”
… freak. Seriously, “if you disappear on me, you’d better stay disappeared!” lol 🙂