Over the past few weeks, I’ve had an increasing number of emails from readers asking questions about the very famous relationship book, Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus by John Gray. I have no idea what has triggered the sudden gathering of questions but one of the most common issues with the assertion that ‘men are like rubber bands’.
John Gray essentially believes that men have an intimacy cycle that is comparable with a rubber band, which stretches (this is when the man pulls away) and then eventually springs back, which is when he wants to get closer.
“Men instinctively feel this urge to pull away. It is not a decision or choice. It just happens. It is neither his fault nor her fault. It is a natural cycle”
Apparently because we as women pull away when something is wrong, we perceive it as being that there is something wrong when in actual fact the man is fulfilling his need for “independence or autonomy”.
Even more interestingly, when he has stretched the rubber band as far as it can go (basically distanced himself), he will then feel the urge for love and intimacy again and bingo, he springs back into relationship action, picking up the relationship at “whatever degree of intimacy it was when he stretched away. He doesn’t feel any need for a period of getting reacquainted again”
Now I there is a lot I enjoy about this infamous book but I can wholeheartedly say that whilst there are no doubt men who behave in the manner described, many are have actually got busted up rubber bands that do not spring back into action.
This is not planet of the apes where we have to creep around the species with a penis and the problem with this idea that men have a cycle of pushing and pulling and blowing hot and cold (you can see where I am going with this…) is that it sends a message to millions of women that this is what they should expect in all relationships.
What John Gray is also describing are men who are habitually emotionally emotionally unavailable, habitually users, habitually coming back to roost when they need an ego stroke, a shag, or a shoulder to lean on, and who manage down the relationship and the woman’s expectations so that they can get their needs met without meeting the needs of the woman.
We all, both men and women, have the potential to withdraw and have periods of not being very emotionally receptive. Stress, grief, coping just after a break-up, trauma and a variety of things can, for periods of time, impact on our ability to emotionally engage on a healthy level with someone.
Where this rubber band theory is problematic is where there are relationships with poor or non existent foundations and also by creating the expectation that all men behave in this way, many women have misguidedly failed to recognise the major red flags in their men when they are in the early stages of dating them.
They make allowances for poor behaviour believing that this is ‘just what men do’ and spend copious amounts of energy trying to understand, fix, heal, help, and accommodate what often amounts to bullsh*t behaviour.
I speak to people who are in healthy relationships all the time and not one of these people is caught up in some guys ‘relationship menstrual cycle’!
The people who are caught up in this cycle are unhappy and it’s not just because they don’t understand that their man is like a rubber band who needs them to let them breathe and do his thang so that he’ll feel the desire to return; it’s because coupled up with other factors in the relationship, there are some serious issues at work.
What if he’s not ‘returning’? What if he’s just popping in to get what he needs on his terms and then skipping off again the moment that he feels that she wants, needs, or expects too much from him? Sound familiar….
What if he hurtles out of the gate blowing super hot, pursuing you relentlessly, declaring the ‘I Love you’s’ and all that jazz, only to then start stretching himself out to distance himself from you and you start feeling a lukewarm or even super cold breeze coming through? Sound familiar?
What if after he’s blown lukewarm or cold, he starts blowing hot again just as he feels that things are dipping out of his control so he needs to manage the relationship back to the comfort zone of The Status Quo, the comfortable middle ground that a Mr Unavailable determines for the relationship?
And that’s what we all need to recognise here – good relationships don’t feel bad but also when there is a negative pattern of emotional intimacy to your relationship where he is controlling it by blowing hot and cold ‘retreating and returning’ so that he can manage down your expectations, put you and the relationship exactly where he wants it, and basically manage things on his terms, something just isn’t right.
This whole believing that men are like rubber bands has us chasing men that don’t want to be caught and pandering to the needs of men that aren’t prepared to put three toes, never mind two feet into the relationship!
In parts two and three, I explain about distinguishing between acceptable and unacceptable ‘retreating’ in a relationship and recognising when you are genuinely crowding someone’s intimacy space and how to handle it without letting your internal and external fears go crazy, but also recognising when someone has no genuine intention of building an intimate relationship with you and is using this behaviour to keep you at a distance, permanently.
This is dead on to my current situation. Dated this guy a year ago (met thru online dating). He had lots of girl friends, which I was a little uncomfortable with but settled my self to it (I have lots of guy friends). He works evenings, so he would spend time with them during the day. Then I find out one of them is his exgf who he was with for 2-1/2 years and lived with…..can you say major red flag?! A peek at her myspace showed pictures from days she reminsced about and my confidence plummetted. I brought this to his attention and he explained a little further about their relationship ending and them being best friends. Fast forward a couple weeks and he starts getting wishy washy on me, tries to talk to me about it but chickens out and eventually I get an email breaking up with me. I replied calling him a coward and saying it’s obvious he and the exgf are getting back together, then delete him from phone and email and myspace. Fast forward a few months and he emails me a pic from a hike we took during a brief time together. Contact reestablished. Then there are lunches and the occassional weekend hang out, completely innocent and infrequent. Fast forward 6 months, he’s living with her, miserable, lunch invitations increase in frequency. Soon he’s “going to work” without really going to work to spend evening time with me. His reason for deception is that she hates me, knowing I’m the one he dated during their time apart. This continues innocently for about a month, then the heat gets turned up. Then he’s talking about ending it with her, moving out and once he’s over her getting back with me. I’m buying this hook line and sinker. So last weekend, after he had moved out of her place (or so he says, I’ve no way to know for sure), he ends up spending the night with me…..yes I know collosally stupid…. I spiral downward the rest of the weekend realizing we moved way too fast. Then I find out Sunday evening that he wasn’t spending the day just with a buddy (as he’d indicated), he was spending it with her too. I shot off a scathing email about being decieved. He had a brief reply, to which I said let’s just ’86’ this whole thing and that the weekend was a mistake. Monday I text twice, email once and find myself constantly checking his facebook. Finally chat with him Tuesday evening online, he’s very cold and a little mean. He claims he is being reclusive so he can sort out what he wants (great, hmmm am I chopped liver much?) I find out again (not from him) that he’s spent the day with her. So I’m the only one he’s being reclusive from. Last night I cut all ties, blocked him on facebook, deleted his phone number and all his emails and text messages. Found this site at about 5:30am, when I woke up for the fourth time last night. This has been a godsend, because alot of his behaviour is completely consistent with Mr Unavailable and I have made myself into the perfect Fallback girl. No More, I’m done. When I need strength I pop out to this site and find it. I started the No Contact Rule today. I deserve someone in my life who can be honest with me and who sees me and a relationship with me as a priority, not something to be considered for the future…maybe…. And I should’ve known better than to give email break up guy any slack at all. He got a second chance, there won’t be a third!!
RES
on 22/04/2009 at 8:04 pm
So true! By saying that bullsh*it behavior is “typical” or “natural” to the species, that somehow legitimizes it – as well as suggesting that men have no control over their behavior; that nature has programmed them to be assclowns. That’s a load of perverbial crap!! RIGHT ON, NML!
truthhurts
on 22/04/2009 at 8:55 pm
Thank god most men don´t read relationship selfhelp books 😉
So women why do we? Lets stop justifying assclown behaviour and lowering our expectations with all these books and “biology based” explanations.
We have needs of our own that need to be met.
Used
on 22/04/2009 at 11:20 pm
Under this theory, men can do disappearing acts (“consciously” or “unconsciously”–WHATEVER!!) while they can–at the very same time!!–reasonably expect women to jump at going out with them when they finally do call–even when the “date” is scheduled at the last minute!
Of course, because some women put up with this, then many of the same men feel justified in thinking that ALL women will.
A diappearing act happening once, ever, and with VERY good excuse, different story. But it can’t last more than 2-3 weeks, tops!
Judy
on 23/04/2009 at 1:01 am
Not sure why – I have tried posting this multiple times and lose the post each time….let’s try again…..
AMEN! From day one with ex-EUM, I foolishly followed the MV Principles, particularly those in MV On A Date. I also posted about ex-EUM and his actions on their Message Boards and sought advice multiple times from one of their relationship coaches. (That was all before I found Baggage Reclaim). Over and over again, when I would react to his behaviors as a signal that he was backing out of the “relationship” (what I call the “slow fade”) or being lukewarm or what I now understand to be managing down my expectations, they would tell me he was “rubberbanding” or “in uncertainty” and I was overreacting because of my 90/10’s. (A MV Principle that says only 10 percent of what you’re experiencing/feeling is because of the dynamics oc the current relationship and 90 percent of what you’re experiencing/feeling is because of the negative dynamics/baggage that you have not dealt with from previous relationships). Foolishly, I did not listen to my gut that was screaming, “something’s not right here, he’s keeping you at a distance, he keeps disappearing for several days, there’s someone else, he’s lying to you, he just wants you for sex, etc,, etc.” Foolishly, I didn’t listen to the 90’s of my 90/10’s because what few lessons I learned from my other EUM were sending off major alarm bells telling me my gut instincts were dead on. Every day, when I would ride the roller coaster of highs when he contacted me and lows when I’d go without hearing from him, instead of listing to my head/gut, I believed so ardently what MV said. I literally made myself sick.
Well, guess what? The MV Principles and MV On A Date may hold true for fine, emotionally mature, upstanding, honest, trustworthy, respectful gentlemen with strong character and integrity. THEY DO NOT HOLD TRUE for EU Assclowns who are unevolved. In fact, I am here as a testament that following the MV Principles when dealing with an EU Assclowns will cause you great emotional harm by providing an excuse for their abhorrent behavior and delaying your wake up call.
Funny, after reading this post, I went back over the the MV Message Boards and felt so sad for several posters there who have just discovered or not yet realized how they were not only deceived by EUM, but also by the MV Principles. As I read several of their posts, I could readily identify EU/Assclown characteristics! GOSH! Maybe I am healing! Maybe I am learning! Thanks Natalie!
Alison
on 23/04/2009 at 1:09 am
You hit it on the nail. Healthy relationships do not feel bad and the woman must have been in a really dark place to accept assclown behaviour from these … assclowns! Women need to recognise that a health relationship is when there is no ambiguity, both people have both feet in the relationship, and both are willing to fight to sustain the relationship at a healthy level.
The pushy, pulley game is in no way fun, at all and I am ashamed to say that I played it twice, consecutively. It was by far one of the worst thing I did to my soul and mind. So after the second time I handed in my chips and finally said ‘Game Over!’ I admit it was hard at first – it really was like kicking an addiction and I did answer his call once within the first few weeks of NC, big mistake I know BUT I haven’t repeated that since, and after 4 months he is STILL phoning and texting. He called this afternoon and I just looked at my phone, reognising the last 4 digits (I deleted his no), and just let it rang. I never felt guilty, didn’t feel anxious or complied to answer, I felt so empowered; and I believe this is the stage every woman in this situation should be aiming to reach. I have also been on hiatus, not even looked at another man in that way – not counting the CSI men haha – and it kinda helps not having every waking moment thinking, wishing, praying to hear from a guy.
I haven’t given up on love, but I am more careful now, more than ever, in the chosing of who I spend my company with. Whilst brooding in a dark place, the light can be hard to see, but if you allow people who truely love you into your heart, the light will grow and consume you. Power to women.
RSW
on 23/04/2009 at 2:56 am
Ditto RES! I have been reading here and learning from everyone for months and months now. Thank you to everyone who posts and shares you have helped me begin to learn how to reach for higher ground in my personal relationships!! I have to say that this post, by far, has really opened up my eyes and further exposed the reality of these blowing hot and cold situations for what they really are – unacceptable behavior. After reading Mars Venus years back, I think I felt hopeless that this was “just how men are” and that “I was missing something for a long time” and that “I must be doing something” to set this blowing hot and cold cycle in motion because somehow I “didn’t get it” or ‘I was missing some big secret’ about how to have a healthy relationship with a man that would not behave this way or treat me like that…. and that if I could just figure out what that was then I could fix it and life would be great……never did I once understand how I was contributing to this and little did I know I that not only was I sending out invitations for this crap on so many levels, but I was rolling out the red carpet for these EUM because of my own beliefs as well…….BUT finally, here comes NML (thankfully) to shed some light on all of this rubber band nonsense and help me recognize the truth of the matter……..that this behavior, no matter what you want to label it as, be it “caving” or “rubberbanding”…is downright disrepsectful a**clownery behavior that should quickly be seen for what it really is – disrepectful a**clownery behavior that hurts and every flag should be flying in my face signaling me to re-evaluate my patterns right there on the spot and to start looking inward as to why I feel I should have to put up with disprectful behavior like this and immediatly begin to focus on and work on that…….NOT patiently wait for him to “blow hot again” or come out of an imaginary cave so that he can sufficiently distract me from what I really should be doing which is questioning myself a little deeper about why I feel I should have to put up with that poor treatment to begin with…. and finally, as NML says…not try to overthink and rationalize that donkey till it collapes but rather get real with myself, recognize it for what it is, accept reality for what it is and actually do something in my best interests about it!! Thank you NML this site is amazing….
Astelle
on 23/04/2009 at 4:32 am
NML, Thank you, great post. That is why I don’t read these books, I understand that men and women are different, but I also know if a man wants to be with you – he will!
Yes, we all have stress and want to pull back a little at times, but in a normal relationship this would not be a problem, you are on the same page with your partner and not trying to get only your needs met.
I agree with Brad, not enough to hold on to the relationship and he will just be “trained” to act like that and be allowed to act like that.
Hmm, sounds like dating a spoiled little kid.
I hope you are doing well and let us know when the baby arrives.
Alika
on 23/04/2009 at 6:41 am
NML, thank you, you are spot on!!!
I was a “good girl” with NC for three weeks (ignored his messages and calls), and yesterday, I gave in!!! And yet again I am in this mess…he didnt change all the same s***! When I try to pressure him about his behaivour and make some “changes”, he didnt answer my message…
You are right by saying: “What if he’s just popping in to get what he needs on his terms and then skipping off again the moment that he feels that she wants, needs, or expects too much from him? Sound familiar”….So familiar..I need to change my number – this only option to rid of my EUM, but somehow I am too weak to do that!!!
Nilondoner
on 23/04/2009 at 9:36 am
I’m afraid I don’t agree on this.
There are two different issues at work that shouldn’t really go together.
An a**hole is an a**hole, it doesn’t matter from which point of view you look at it and no excuses. John Gray’s theory applies to long committed loving relationships, (the key word is loving). it was never meant to apply to nonexisting relationships where one partner shows clear signs of not respecting the other.
My opinion is that when we women use this “men are like rubber bands” theory to explain poor, red-flag behaviour we are just making another excuse because we don’t want to see the reality which is that we. have. poor or no boundaries. Once again we are moving the focus from us to them.
Men in healthy relationships do feel the need for their own space, for not feeling crowded but a healthy relationship is made also by an healthy woman with an healthy self esteem, who doesn’t go to pieces or harrass the guy when he needs time by himself.
The crucial difference here is between red flag behaviour, like disappearing for days (that’s not pulling away, that’s taking the piss) and spending a couple of hours playing football with your mates a couple of times a week. Having your own space in a healthy relationship doesn’t mean wanting things on your term but simply mantaining your individuality in a couple and it’s something I wouldn’t never want to be deprived of. So why should he?
Betterwithouthim
on 23/04/2009 at 1:16 pm
This is a great post NML! And excellent feedback from others who recently posted also. This is exactly what we need to hear so that we can spot an Assclown right away and take appropriate action. I’ve been 7 months of NC and it has been the best thing I’ve done for myself in YEARS! I’m so much better, healthier, still building my self-esteem, and working on insecurities but I get it now.
I too read the MV book and followed some of the principles there. I’m glad we have NML’s site to refer to and keep us informed and on our toes and how to spot the AC behavior before we get too much invested.
Judy ~ Excellent point on the MV info and how you were giving the AC too much credit for actually being a decent guy (which he clearly wasn’t). How you were not listening to your gut and all the red flags which were waving and giving you signs to abort the mission. Thank you!
I think the greatest thing about this site is that when I found it and began reading and downloading NML’s book; it was a relief to know others where in the same predicament and this was a place to gain knowledge and empower myself to change.
Looking forward to part2 and part3.
truthhurts
on 23/04/2009 at 2:30 pm
@Nilondoner
NML says: Where this rubber band theory is problematic is where there are relationships with poor or non existent foundations
I think that implies that in healthy relationships with emotionally available partners a certain amount of retreiting at times is not a problem. I agree with you that it is in fact healthy. But since us fallbackigrls who read this blog are not in a healthy relationship and are all to eager to find excuses for assclowns, I don´t find it disturbing when MNL skips the nuances a bit in favor of empowerment.
CNB0167
on 23/04/2009 at 3:20 pm
The worst part is that John Gray has some things in his books that are wise, but, like anything else…take what you can use and leave the rest. Its hard with some books because if you don’t use wisdom you can really buy-in to everything they say. I’ve read gone back to different parts of Venus and Mars on a Date at times and the line “is neither his fault nor her fault. It is a natural cycle” has always smacked of pure BS to me. The worst thing is that John Gray makes it sound almost clinical–like you said, a menstrual cycle. The other golden nugget is “he doesn’t feel any need for a period of getting reacquainted again†which means “don’t try to discuss his absence…just give him what he wants”. Gag. The only thing I can think is that John Gray himself has behaved this way and to say its “natural” is how he justifies his own behavior.
ChiTownKitty
on 23/04/2009 at 3:22 pm
Alika,
I totally understand where you are coming from! I have tried NC only to bounce back in my weak moments. My situation involves a married assclown and our long distance dance of whatever the heck it is…
You will find your own line in the sand/breaking point. when you say “enough is enough” where the pain outweighs any gain. I have just hit it this week….he’s on vacation and for the first time ever he wants me to text him! He senses my pulling away so of course mr. AC can’t have that! I mean, what if his vacation with the mrs. isn’t fun! He needs me–his stupid Fallback Girl.
For whatever reason, that has proven to be my “DONE!” point…I won’t answer the texts (sent from some of the loveliest seaside bathrooms, no doubt) won’t ignore the fact that his walks on the beach aren’t alone, they are with the person he WANTS to be with—I am done! And every text/email he sends just infuriates me more–which is good!
To me, ACs not only want to have their cake and eat it too but they don’t even want to clean up the plate!
Be strong! You can do this!! Save the most annoying ACish text or email he’s sent and everytime you want to call or text him, read that instead…it helps!
Thanks for letting me vent!
ChiTownKitty
CNB0167
on 23/04/2009 at 3:28 pm
Nilendoner, your response was right. I’ve been in relationships with no autonomy and they were so unhealthy and co-dependent. I was talking about the times when I’ve had this sick feeling in my gut that my EUM was backing off merely for the purpose of creating space to neutralize any possibility of growth. I’ve ALWAYS felt it in my gut. He might create something he’s “confused” about or “needed time to think about”. As far as healthy time apart, you are dead on. I had always read John Gray’s comments about this to mean several days apart. I don’t know why because he doesn’t say how long I don’t think. Weird that I assumed it!
nevergoingbackthereagain
on 23/04/2009 at 4:08 pm
Astelle – I couldnt agree with you more!! it gets me down that these sort of books even exist to actually justify this frankly shoddy treatment!! men are not children!! we shouldnt have to treat them in a special way or excuse this behaviour as men just being men and its the old rubber band theory!! ……making it all ok!! (how far would us acting like this & then using pmt as excuse go!!??) really, if someone really loves you & wants to be in a committed relationship – this would not happen!!
searchingwithin
on 24/04/2009 at 5:40 pm
I have learned that the attraction to these unhealthy relationships begins from beliefs that we formed as children that are deeply buried with our subconscious, that we continue to play out when we become older, in an attempt to fulfill a need that was not met as a child.
We seek out people, and feel the most “chemistry” with those people who make us feel the way we felt when we formed the belief, subconsciously attempting to make it right this time. But it never works. The belief just gets embedded deeper.
You have to go back to the source of the belief.
searchingwithin’s last blog post..Seeking Validation and Love Through Men’s Approval
Delicia1973
on 26/04/2009 at 2:03 pm
John Gray is a hack!! Healthy men and women want the same things from a relationship, not this rubber band mumbo jumbo. Studies will show that the sexes are not much different, independent from childhood traumas, etc. If they love you they are gonna snap back pretty quick and it isn’t a cycle it is manipulation to keep us chasing them, EGO!! I need to be wanted, I want to be wanted, What does this sound like, teenagers!! It should not take days for a man to get the nerve to solve a problem and be selfless in his approach, especially when it comes to a loved one. It takes a really strong man to do this and they are sometimes hard to find. I guess being aware is the best we women can do and always do the right thing, even if it means breaking our own hearts, because you will come back stronger.
Jean
on 27/04/2009 at 6:51 am
I’m so glad you addressed this as there are too many women believing this garbage. Their instincts are telling them something is wrong but this mumbo jumbo tells them to ignore their instincts and cater to the man.
I have read some stories on that forum where women waited around for weeks and months on some AC to come around and pay attention to them again.
None of those stores ever had a happy ending.
mistechal
on 06/05/2009 at 12:26 am
John Gray an his books are in my personal opinion, simplistic and one sided. ! I think he’s a charlatan, and a fake. His pedantic views on human relations is sad, and I can hardly believe that people still buy into this pap. After seeing him on some talk show,years ago, shortly after the publishing of his first book, I remember him saying that after he left the monastery, he had his pick of women. They all wanted to be the one to ‘bed’ the ex-monk, and he made out big time. He was a user of women and now he professes to council them ! A quick Wiki search bears this out…
Gray’s books teach that men and women are intrinsically different in their biology and psychology. He writes that harmony between the sexes is achieved by recognizing and accepting these differences rather than trying to erase them. Critics have accused him of over-simplifying human psychology into stereotypes that fail to adequately describe many people.[1][2][3][4] His books however have sold over 40 million copies world-wide and continue to receive international acclaim to this day.[citation needed]
[edit] Credentials
After high school he attended University of St. Thomas (a liberal arts college) and the University of Texas, but did not receive degrees from these institutions. He lived as a Hindu monk for nine years in Switzerland and studied with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. He received diplomas called BA and MA in “Creative Intelligence” from the Maharishi European Research University in Iowa.[5]
John Gray received his PhD from unaccredited Columbia Pacific University after completing a correspondence course in 1982.[5][6] He was featured prominently in Columbia Pacific’s marketing literature in the 1990s prior to its subsequent court-ordered shutdown in 2000. [7][8]
Janet
on 15/06/2009 at 1:39 am
Judy – I was a registered user on the MV site for a while. I had to leave. The stories were depressing. I saw the same situation over and over again. Men would cave (my version of them doing the fade) and eventually not come back. Instead of dumping his *** they would continue to make excuses for lousy behavior. I got to where I almost hated men for reading that message board. I’m glad I’m not the only one who felt that way.
Delicia1973: I think he’s a hack too. I think his theory apologizes way too much for man’s lousy behavior.
Mistechal: I didn’t realize he did that after he left the convent – but it wouldn’t surprise me.
If a man is into you, you know it. I was married before (I’m a widow). My late husband FROM DAY ONE let me know he was into me.
After a month – he gave me a key to his place.
6 months later – we moved in together.
1 year later – we were married. I never doubted his loved for me ever. When I walked down the aisle everyone in my family was touched by his teary eyed display of love.
I found this blog by accident today. It’s very comforting. It is. I get lonely, but I’ll never excuse wishy washy behavior again. I broke off a serious relationship a couple of years ago. Between his harem of exes and his sick tie to his momma (he was a major mama’s boy) and his push me pull you behavior, I thought I was losing my mind. We broke it off, he’d call and promise to change, I’d take him back, over and over again. 8X’S. Isn’t that stupid? Machochistic?
No more. Now it’s my way or the highway. I look for certain behaviors in men. If they take a cell phone call on a date, are consistently late or exhibit any disrespectful behavior, I dump them flat.
Do I get lonely? Of course I do. Either a man lives to make me happy or he’s gone. For now I’ll continue to love myself.
kaiako
on 15/06/2009 at 8:01 am
Like most women here I read the M v V series and tried real hard to take on board the tenets. I even tried to practice what he talked about – giving space and time for the caving, being even more accomodating – all it achieved was an even more unequal balance between us – him up and me down so I quickly ditched it 🙂 Same for the ‘Surrendered wife’ ideas – gosh I sound like a relationship books junkie 🙂 Always working on myself and where does it get us? I was rather shocked to see his true academic history – the back of his books make it sound like he attended Ivy League schools all the way! I am always a bit suspicious of those who study a lot in a mainstream establishment yet leave with no qualifications … shows a lack of something – committment maybe or stamina?
truthhurts
on 15/06/2009 at 3:10 pm
I feel like a rubber band myself right now. Have succesfully ditched the EUM months ago and was feeling good. But now I found out that my current crush just shagged another girl this weekend.
Nothing happened yet between me and the crush cause I wisened up and was careful (thanks NML!) but still I feel kinda down and as if I am not good enough.
And guess what.. I suddenly have this urge to get in contact with the past EUM. Maybe because I know he will welome me back with open arms. At least for a moment.
That only shows that girls who hang out with EUMs have low selfesteem. The minute my selfesteem gets a dent I feel like running to the EUM.
Maybe that is how it works for them too…
truthhurts
on 15/06/2009 at 10:24 pm
Brad, thanks for your reply. I do have friends, and some very good ones too. But you know how it is, you want that special someone who holds you at night. Who gives affection, also physical. And with my friends all settled it´s not allways possible to reach someone when you need them. Or ask a girlfriend to sleepover at a whim because I need a night filled with girltalk and icecream… And so sometimes I feel lonely and vonerable.. and then the EUM comes to mind.. I´ll manage, I haven´t contacted him and I don´t intend to.
But you are absolutely right, it certainly helps to have some contact with someone at those times.
I go to this forum where we talk about food, lifestyle, gossip, whatever. It is a big forum so there is allways someone there and it does give some distaction and human interaction at times that I can´t meet with friends.
Stephanie
on 07/07/2009 at 6:32 pm
I wish I had read this last year when I was going through an awful long distance relationship. I had borrowed the book from my sister and was dating a guy who in the beginning said he loved me, talked about the future, etc., only to retreat time and again. After reading the book, I thought well maybe that’s just how men are and I need to give him some space. I thought it was ME being too demanding, needy, when in fact my GUT was on red alert trying to tell me something was not right. It was a very sick, destructive relationship that I put an end to after 8 months. He had an advantage in that it was a long distance thing and he could portray himself anyway he liked. I really thought he was the guy I had waited for my whole life and he turned out to be a total nightmare.
jane
on 04/08/2009 at 11:26 pm
Amen to this article! Why are we always getting advice on how to adapt to men’s inadequacies? Yes, we all need alone time. When I need autonomy I say, “Hey, I just need a few days to myself,” rather than expecting a guy to wait until I decide to call him. Can men not be as courteous? Must we wait around playing ‘mind reader’ while they have their alone time? All they have to do is say what they mean and mean what they say…that they just need some time alone!
Dragonfly14
on 30/08/2009 at 9:40 am
looking at all the comments on the subject of ‘rubber band men’ thought i would add my experience here to get some feedback hopefully…..ok here goes…..I ended a relationship with someone about 4 weeks ago, and i’m in the no contact mode now and struggling as most of us do….only way forward for me though, as i don’t want to remain friends and here what he is doing in his life. After being together approx 15 months he changed the dynamic of our relationship without discussion, and began to pull away, so every conversation by phone was about his big plans etc etc, none of which included me, then promptly asked what my plans were, and indeed what my ‘life goal’ was…..so the messsage I was receiving here was…..we are now friends and he wants to do his own thing mostly, but keep me dangling by text and phone without actually planning for us to spend any time together. Does anyone think this was ‘rubber band action’, or him simply pulling away from the relationship as it was. I didn’t hang around to find out, as the hurt was too much, so fo me that was the end. Love to hear what you all think
Brad K.
on 30/08/2009 at 11:08 am
Dragonfly14,
On the face of it he ended the “relationship”. He didn’t so much pull back as leave. Rather than be clear about his change, he was a bit flaky in hinting that you had been dumped.
If he could end his time with you this way, it doesn’t seem likely he ever felt he was with you. He sounds like a perpetual dater, and he figured the date was over. If you were looking for a shared life or life-long companion – Sorry.
.-= Brad K.´s last blog ..br: The practice doll =-.
Dragonfly14
on 30/08/2009 at 2:05 pm
Hi Brad K,
Thanks for your comments on my situation. As with a lot of us on here it seems we knew it wasn’t a life-long relationship, just holding on hoping….i should mention that during my relationship with ‘him’ he lost his Father, after a long illness, needless to say I was by his side through that. Within days of his fathers funeral, everything changed, as though he now had freedom to pursue some of the interests he had been unable to do. So not only was he flaky in his ‘dumping’ he used me as an emotional crutch. We have broken up before more than once, due to a past relationship of his, someone he was involved with who wasn’t going away, but at the same time was never going to commit to being with him. So it was no easy ride dealing with the constant presence of someone from his past.
So an absolute mess really. Amazing that he spent so many hours , days, nights weekends etc with me…….and I have a duaghter of 11 too, who he drew into the whole picture, with his family etc etc. So these are tough times……….and i’m on the 30th day of no contact…I think it’s 3o anyway, so that must be progress of some sort.
Read so many articles on moving on my head is buzzing……I think the hardest part of it all is……filling all that time you spent with someone with new things to do.
really appreciate your reply xx Dragonfly
Brad K.
on 30/08/2009 at 6:23 pm
@ Dragonfly14,
Being a single parent has to be about as tough a task as can be. There is no place for your girl to learn about relationships as thoroughly as what she learns at home.
Hopefully she appreciates the dangers of the Knight in Shining Armor fantasy, and learns that a bozo will remain a bozo, or EUM, or abusive, undisciplined – lacking character – forever. But I hope she also learns, in her heart as well as hearing it said, that there are men of good character interested and able to be a good mate an parent. And that she is going to be the one that has to decide if being with one guy or another is good for her.
Any time someone opens their heart and home to someone they hope will share lives with them, will be a comfort and support as well as someone that needs another to make a home, I pray that the choice of companion is a good choice. Because our action, our choices, affect friends and family as examples and as joys or tears we bring to those we love.
I read about women that use their kids to get dates, as well as those that won’t let the man in their life contact the kids directly. Both approaches appear to avoid some dangers, but both I think are extreme. A parent has to realize that everyone in their life affects the kids directly, indirectly, or both, regardless of whether the person in question ever meets the kids. “If Mama isn’t happy, no one is happy,” is true for all adults and parents.
If I had my druthers, I would say that moving on, getting past the pain, is important at first. But very quickly the point has to be moving to a good place. And any time you have a destination, you have enough work to do to fill up any life time. Instead of thinking of time you used to spend elsewhere, consider what you need to accomplish today, this year, and in the next ten years. Consider what you need to do to know that you never need to put up with immature and undisciplined crap in your life. Consider what your daughter, the rest of your family, and your friends could use from you. Consider whether a pet – an inside cat or dog – might provide a source of need and comfort to help your daughter’s emotional growth and your own healing. Perhaps a counselor or pastor visit might help you discover priorities and opportunities – or issues you have been reluctant to face that are holding you back. Consider whether you could be a little bit – not a lot! – more active in your kid’s life, such as bowling or movie parties, exchanging home overnighters with friends, family or family and friends dinners.
Really, time is the limiting factor, not finding ways to fill it.
Blessed be.
.-= Brad K.´s last blog ..ps: Empowering girls, and self confidence =-.
Dragonfly14
on 31/08/2009 at 4:53 pm
Some interesting comments there Brad……my daughter has a very full life, and is involved i lots of activitities, including endless sleepovers, girl guides, dance classes etc. We did indeed have a beautiful black labrador as a pet, who very sadly died just before’the breakup’….very traumatic time for us, as he had previously been such a lively part of our family, and he became ill so quickly, he had been part of our family since my daughter was a baby so she didn’t know life without him….so there has been a double loss here, and the man who previously had been so involved with us, kind and caring in every way, chose to be somewhere else when he was needed most here. So a hard lesson. We have wonderful family and friends, so I am ever grateful for them. and I guess really that time will be the healer, and my overal lconclusion is that ‘the man in question’ was not good enough for me as he didn’t step up to the plate in a crisis, which is a very good indicator of his strength of character, and his lack of commitment….I think your suggestion about a counsellor or pastor is certainly valid, tho I’m beginning to regain strength in this adverse situation, and will plough myown furrow on the road to recovery. this forum certainly helps as you know there is a whole world of people going through similar anguish.
Brad K.
on 31/08/2009 at 8:55 pm
@ Dragonfly14,
You had sounded like you were coping well. My specific concern was what lesson in relationships, parenting, and how and when to choose a mate that your daughter is learning.
I was thinking of the counseling not so much as “do this to heal”, as an assistant in identifying all the needed questions, and help sorting out the priorities.
Luck.
.-= Brad K.´s last blog ..tslr: Survival Prep, and choosing a spouse =-.
Anne
on 11/10/2009 at 7:18 am
The person who writes this blog is one intelligent, bright woman! She’s got this down pat! I think EXACTLY what she articulates, so perhaps that is why I am in complete agreement. Even if not, at least it does accomplish one thing: to make women think about whether or not the man she is giving her time (which is her life) to is engaging in unacceptable behavior.
My dignity comes first. Thank goodness for that. Even if I am in pain over not continuing to see the man, at least I don’t put up with crap. I will NOT continue to be sexually intimate with a man that I discover is trying to see other women.
I’ve been running Baggage Reclaim since September 2005, and I’ve spent many thousands of hours writing this labour of love. The site has been ad-free the entire time, and it costs hundreds of pounds a month to run it on my own. If what I share here has helped you and you’re in a position to do so, I would love if you could make a donation. Your support is so very much appreciated! Thank you.
Copyright Natalie Lue 2005-2024, All rights reserved. Written and express permission along with credit is needed to reproduce and distribute excerpts or entire pieces of my work.
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This is dead on to my current situation. Dated this guy a year ago (met thru online dating). He had lots of girl friends, which I was a little uncomfortable with but settled my self to it (I have lots of guy friends). He works evenings, so he would spend time with them during the day. Then I find out one of them is his exgf who he was with for 2-1/2 years and lived with…..can you say major red flag?! A peek at her myspace showed pictures from days she reminsced about and my confidence plummetted. I brought this to his attention and he explained a little further about their relationship ending and them being best friends. Fast forward a couple weeks and he starts getting wishy washy on me, tries to talk to me about it but chickens out and eventually I get an email breaking up with me. I replied calling him a coward and saying it’s obvious he and the exgf are getting back together, then delete him from phone and email and myspace. Fast forward a few months and he emails me a pic from a hike we took during a brief time together. Contact reestablished. Then there are lunches and the occassional weekend hang out, completely innocent and infrequent. Fast forward 6 months, he’s living with her, miserable, lunch invitations increase in frequency. Soon he’s “going to work” without really going to work to spend evening time with me. His reason for deception is that she hates me, knowing I’m the one he dated during their time apart. This continues innocently for about a month, then the heat gets turned up. Then he’s talking about ending it with her, moving out and once he’s over her getting back with me. I’m buying this hook line and sinker. So last weekend, after he had moved out of her place (or so he says, I’ve no way to know for sure), he ends up spending the night with me…..yes I know collosally stupid…. I spiral downward the rest of the weekend realizing we moved way too fast. Then I find out Sunday evening that he wasn’t spending the day just with a buddy (as he’d indicated), he was spending it with her too. I shot off a scathing email about being decieved. He had a brief reply, to which I said let’s just ’86’ this whole thing and that the weekend was a mistake. Monday I text twice, email once and find myself constantly checking his facebook. Finally chat with him Tuesday evening online, he’s very cold and a little mean. He claims he is being reclusive so he can sort out what he wants (great, hmmm am I chopped liver much?) I find out again (not from him) that he’s spent the day with her. So I’m the only one he’s being reclusive from. Last night I cut all ties, blocked him on facebook, deleted his phone number and all his emails and text messages. Found this site at about 5:30am, when I woke up for the fourth time last night. This has been a godsend, because alot of his behaviour is completely consistent with Mr Unavailable and I have made myself into the perfect Fallback girl. No More, I’m done. When I need strength I pop out to this site and find it. I started the No Contact Rule today. I deserve someone in my life who can be honest with me and who sees me and a relationship with me as a priority, not something to be considered for the future…maybe…. And I should’ve known better than to give email break up guy any slack at all. He got a second chance, there won’t be a third!!
So true! By saying that bullsh*it behavior is “typical” or “natural” to the species, that somehow legitimizes it – as well as suggesting that men have no control over their behavior; that nature has programmed them to be assclowns. That’s a load of perverbial crap!! RIGHT ON, NML!
Thank god most men don´t read relationship selfhelp books 😉
So women why do we? Lets stop justifying assclown behaviour and lowering our expectations with all these books and “biology based” explanations.
We have needs of our own that need to be met.
Under this theory, men can do disappearing acts (“consciously” or “unconsciously”–WHATEVER!!) while they can–at the very same time!!–reasonably expect women to jump at going out with them when they finally do call–even when the “date” is scheduled at the last minute!
Of course, because some women put up with this, then many of the same men feel justified in thinking that ALL women will.
A diappearing act happening once, ever, and with VERY good excuse, different story. But it can’t last more than 2-3 weeks, tops!
Not sure why – I have tried posting this multiple times and lose the post each time….let’s try again…..
AMEN! From day one with ex-EUM, I foolishly followed the MV Principles, particularly those in MV On A Date. I also posted about ex-EUM and his actions on their Message Boards and sought advice multiple times from one of their relationship coaches. (That was all before I found Baggage Reclaim). Over and over again, when I would react to his behaviors as a signal that he was backing out of the “relationship” (what I call the “slow fade”) or being lukewarm or what I now understand to be managing down my expectations, they would tell me he was “rubberbanding” or “in uncertainty” and I was overreacting because of my 90/10’s. (A MV Principle that says only 10 percent of what you’re experiencing/feeling is because of the dynamics oc the current relationship and 90 percent of what you’re experiencing/feeling is because of the negative dynamics/baggage that you have not dealt with from previous relationships). Foolishly, I did not listen to my gut that was screaming, “something’s not right here, he’s keeping you at a distance, he keeps disappearing for several days, there’s someone else, he’s lying to you, he just wants you for sex, etc,, etc.” Foolishly, I didn’t listen to the 90’s of my 90/10’s because what few lessons I learned from my other EUM were sending off major alarm bells telling me my gut instincts were dead on. Every day, when I would ride the roller coaster of highs when he contacted me and lows when I’d go without hearing from him, instead of listing to my head/gut, I believed so ardently what MV said. I literally made myself sick.
Well, guess what? The MV Principles and MV On A Date may hold true for fine, emotionally mature, upstanding, honest, trustworthy, respectful gentlemen with strong character and integrity. THEY DO NOT HOLD TRUE for EU Assclowns who are unevolved. In fact, I am here as a testament that following the MV Principles when dealing with an EU Assclowns will cause you great emotional harm by providing an excuse for their abhorrent behavior and delaying your wake up call.
Funny, after reading this post, I went back over the the MV Message Boards and felt so sad for several posters there who have just discovered or not yet realized how they were not only deceived by EUM, but also by the MV Principles. As I read several of their posts, I could readily identify EU/Assclown characteristics! GOSH! Maybe I am healing! Maybe I am learning! Thanks Natalie!
You hit it on the nail. Healthy relationships do not feel bad and the woman must have been in a really dark place to accept assclown behaviour from these … assclowns! Women need to recognise that a health relationship is when there is no ambiguity, both people have both feet in the relationship, and both are willing to fight to sustain the relationship at a healthy level.
The pushy, pulley game is in no way fun, at all and I am ashamed to say that I played it twice, consecutively. It was by far one of the worst thing I did to my soul and mind. So after the second time I handed in my chips and finally said ‘Game Over!’ I admit it was hard at first – it really was like kicking an addiction and I did answer his call once within the first few weeks of NC, big mistake I know BUT I haven’t repeated that since, and after 4 months he is STILL phoning and texting. He called this afternoon and I just looked at my phone, reognising the last 4 digits (I deleted his no), and just let it rang. I never felt guilty, didn’t feel anxious or complied to answer, I felt so empowered; and I believe this is the stage every woman in this situation should be aiming to reach. I have also been on hiatus, not even looked at another man in that way – not counting the CSI men haha – and it kinda helps not having every waking moment thinking, wishing, praying to hear from a guy.
I haven’t given up on love, but I am more careful now, more than ever, in the chosing of who I spend my company with. Whilst brooding in a dark place, the light can be hard to see, but if you allow people who truely love you into your heart, the light will grow and consume you. Power to women.
Ditto RES! I have been reading here and learning from everyone for months and months now. Thank you to everyone who posts and shares you have helped me begin to learn how to reach for higher ground in my personal relationships!! I have to say that this post, by far, has really opened up my eyes and further exposed the reality of these blowing hot and cold situations for what they really are – unacceptable behavior. After reading Mars Venus years back, I think I felt hopeless that this was “just how men are” and that “I was missing something for a long time” and that “I must be doing something” to set this blowing hot and cold cycle in motion because somehow I “didn’t get it” or ‘I was missing some big secret’ about how to have a healthy relationship with a man that would not behave this way or treat me like that…. and that if I could just figure out what that was then I could fix it and life would be great……never did I once understand how I was contributing to this and little did I know I that not only was I sending out invitations for this crap on so many levels, but I was rolling out the red carpet for these EUM because of my own beliefs as well…….BUT finally, here comes NML (thankfully) to shed some light on all of this rubber band nonsense and help me recognize the truth of the matter……..that this behavior, no matter what you want to label it as, be it “caving” or “rubberbanding”…is downright disrepsectful a**clownery behavior that should quickly be seen for what it really is – disrepectful a**clownery behavior that hurts and every flag should be flying in my face signaling me to re-evaluate my patterns right there on the spot and to start looking inward as to why I feel I should have to put up with disprectful behavior like this and immediatly begin to focus on and work on that…….NOT patiently wait for him to “blow hot again” or come out of an imaginary cave so that he can sufficiently distract me from what I really should be doing which is questioning myself a little deeper about why I feel I should have to put up with that poor treatment to begin with…. and finally, as NML says…not try to overthink and rationalize that donkey till it collapes but rather get real with myself, recognize it for what it is, accept reality for what it is and actually do something in my best interests about it!! Thank you NML this site is amazing….
NML, Thank you, great post. That is why I don’t read these books, I understand that men and women are different, but I also know if a man wants to be with you – he will!
Yes, we all have stress and want to pull back a little at times, but in a normal relationship this would not be a problem, you are on the same page with your partner and not trying to get only your needs met.
I agree with Brad, not enough to hold on to the relationship and he will just be “trained” to act like that and be allowed to act like that.
Hmm, sounds like dating a spoiled little kid.
I hope you are doing well and let us know when the baby arrives.
NML, thank you, you are spot on!!!
I was a “good girl” with NC for three weeks (ignored his messages and calls), and yesterday, I gave in!!! And yet again I am in this mess…he didnt change all the same s***! When I try to pressure him about his behaivour and make some “changes”, he didnt answer my message…
You are right by saying: “What if he’s just popping in to get what he needs on his terms and then skipping off again the moment that he feels that she wants, needs, or expects too much from him? Sound familiar”….So familiar..I need to change my number – this only option to rid of my EUM, but somehow I am too weak to do that!!!
I’m afraid I don’t agree on this.
There are two different issues at work that shouldn’t really go together.
An a**hole is an a**hole, it doesn’t matter from which point of view you look at it and no excuses. John Gray’s theory applies to long committed loving relationships, (the key word is loving). it was never meant to apply to nonexisting relationships where one partner shows clear signs of not respecting the other.
My opinion is that when we women use this “men are like rubber bands” theory to explain poor, red-flag behaviour we are just making another excuse because we don’t want to see the reality which is that we. have. poor or no boundaries. Once again we are moving the focus from us to them.
Men in healthy relationships do feel the need for their own space, for not feeling crowded but a healthy relationship is made also by an healthy woman with an healthy self esteem, who doesn’t go to pieces or harrass the guy when he needs time by himself.
The crucial difference here is between red flag behaviour, like disappearing for days (that’s not pulling away, that’s taking the piss) and spending a couple of hours playing football with your mates a couple of times a week. Having your own space in a healthy relationship doesn’t mean wanting things on your term but simply mantaining your individuality in a couple and it’s something I wouldn’t never want to be deprived of. So why should he?
This is a great post NML! And excellent feedback from others who recently posted also. This is exactly what we need to hear so that we can spot an Assclown right away and take appropriate action. I’ve been 7 months of NC and it has been the best thing I’ve done for myself in YEARS! I’m so much better, healthier, still building my self-esteem, and working on insecurities but I get it now.
I too read the MV book and followed some of the principles there. I’m glad we have NML’s site to refer to and keep us informed and on our toes and how to spot the AC behavior before we get too much invested.
Judy ~ Excellent point on the MV info and how you were giving the AC too much credit for actually being a decent guy (which he clearly wasn’t). How you were not listening to your gut and all the red flags which were waving and giving you signs to abort the mission. Thank you!
I think the greatest thing about this site is that when I found it and began reading and downloading NML’s book; it was a relief to know others where in the same predicament and this was a place to gain knowledge and empower myself to change.
Looking forward to part2 and part3.
@Nilondoner
NML says: Where this rubber band theory is problematic is where there are relationships with poor or non existent foundations
I think that implies that in healthy relationships with emotionally available partners a certain amount of retreiting at times is not a problem. I agree with you that it is in fact healthy. But since us fallbackigrls who read this blog are not in a healthy relationship and are all to eager to find excuses for assclowns, I don´t find it disturbing when MNL skips the nuances a bit in favor of empowerment.
The worst part is that John Gray has some things in his books that are wise, but, like anything else…take what you can use and leave the rest. Its hard with some books because if you don’t use wisdom you can really buy-in to everything they say. I’ve read gone back to different parts of Venus and Mars on a Date at times and the line “is neither his fault nor her fault. It is a natural cycle” has always smacked of pure BS to me. The worst thing is that John Gray makes it sound almost clinical–like you said, a menstrual cycle. The other golden nugget is “he doesn’t feel any need for a period of getting reacquainted again†which means “don’t try to discuss his absence…just give him what he wants”. Gag. The only thing I can think is that John Gray himself has behaved this way and to say its “natural” is how he justifies his own behavior.
Alika,
I totally understand where you are coming from! I have tried NC only to bounce back in my weak moments. My situation involves a married assclown and our long distance dance of whatever the heck it is…
You will find your own line in the sand/breaking point. when you say “enough is enough” where the pain outweighs any gain. I have just hit it this week….he’s on vacation and for the first time ever he wants me to text him! He senses my pulling away so of course mr. AC can’t have that! I mean, what if his vacation with the mrs. isn’t fun! He needs me–his stupid Fallback Girl.
For whatever reason, that has proven to be my “DONE!” point…I won’t answer the texts (sent from some of the loveliest seaside bathrooms, no doubt) won’t ignore the fact that his walks on the beach aren’t alone, they are with the person he WANTS to be with—I am done! And every text/email he sends just infuriates me more–which is good!
To me, ACs not only want to have their cake and eat it too but they don’t even want to clean up the plate!
Be strong! You can do this!! Save the most annoying ACish text or email he’s sent and everytime you want to call or text him, read that instead…it helps!
Thanks for letting me vent!
ChiTownKitty
Nilendoner, your response was right. I’ve been in relationships with no autonomy and they were so unhealthy and co-dependent. I was talking about the times when I’ve had this sick feeling in my gut that my EUM was backing off merely for the purpose of creating space to neutralize any possibility of growth. I’ve ALWAYS felt it in my gut. He might create something he’s “confused” about or “needed time to think about”. As far as healthy time apart, you are dead on. I had always read John Gray’s comments about this to mean several days apart. I don’t know why because he doesn’t say how long I don’t think. Weird that I assumed it!
Astelle – I couldnt agree with you more!! it gets me down that these sort of books even exist to actually justify this frankly shoddy treatment!! men are not children!! we shouldnt have to treat them in a special way or excuse this behaviour as men just being men and its the old rubber band theory!! ……making it all ok!! (how far would us acting like this & then using pmt as excuse go!!??) really, if someone really loves you & wants to be in a committed relationship – this would not happen!!
I have learned that the attraction to these unhealthy relationships begins from beliefs that we formed as children that are deeply buried with our subconscious, that we continue to play out when we become older, in an attempt to fulfill a need that was not met as a child.
We seek out people, and feel the most “chemistry” with those people who make us feel the way we felt when we formed the belief, subconsciously attempting to make it right this time. But it never works. The belief just gets embedded deeper.
You have to go back to the source of the belief.
searchingwithin’s last blog post..Seeking Validation and Love Through Men’s Approval
John Gray is a hack!! Healthy men and women want the same things from a relationship, not this rubber band mumbo jumbo. Studies will show that the sexes are not much different, independent from childhood traumas, etc. If they love you they are gonna snap back pretty quick and it isn’t a cycle it is manipulation to keep us chasing them, EGO!! I need to be wanted, I want to be wanted, What does this sound like, teenagers!! It should not take days for a man to get the nerve to solve a problem and be selfless in his approach, especially when it comes to a loved one. It takes a really strong man to do this and they are sometimes hard to find. I guess being aware is the best we women can do and always do the right thing, even if it means breaking our own hearts, because you will come back stronger.
I’m so glad you addressed this as there are too many women believing this garbage. Their instincts are telling them something is wrong but this mumbo jumbo tells them to ignore their instincts and cater to the man.
I have read some stories on that forum where women waited around for weeks and months on some AC to come around and pay attention to them again.
None of those stores ever had a happy ending.
John Gray an his books are in my personal opinion, simplistic and one sided. ! I think he’s a charlatan, and a fake. His pedantic views on human relations is sad, and I can hardly believe that people still buy into this pap. After seeing him on some talk show,years ago, shortly after the publishing of his first book, I remember him saying that after he left the monastery, he had his pick of women. They all wanted to be the one to ‘bed’ the ex-monk, and he made out big time. He was a user of women and now he professes to council them ! A quick Wiki search bears this out…
Gray’s books teach that men and women are intrinsically different in their biology and psychology. He writes that harmony between the sexes is achieved by recognizing and accepting these differences rather than trying to erase them. Critics have accused him of over-simplifying human psychology into stereotypes that fail to adequately describe many people.[1][2][3][4] His books however have sold over 40 million copies world-wide and continue to receive international acclaim to this day.[citation needed]
[edit] Credentials
After high school he attended University of St. Thomas (a liberal arts college) and the University of Texas, but did not receive degrees from these institutions. He lived as a Hindu monk for nine years in Switzerland and studied with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. He received diplomas called BA and MA in “Creative Intelligence” from the Maharishi European Research University in Iowa.[5]
John Gray received his PhD from unaccredited Columbia Pacific University after completing a correspondence course in 1982.[5][6] He was featured prominently in Columbia Pacific’s marketing literature in the 1990s prior to its subsequent court-ordered shutdown in 2000. [7][8]
Judy – I was a registered user on the MV site for a while. I had to leave. The stories were depressing. I saw the same situation over and over again. Men would cave (my version of them doing the fade) and eventually not come back. Instead of dumping his *** they would continue to make excuses for lousy behavior. I got to where I almost hated men for reading that message board. I’m glad I’m not the only one who felt that way.
Delicia1973: I think he’s a hack too. I think his theory apologizes way too much for man’s lousy behavior.
Mistechal: I didn’t realize he did that after he left the convent – but it wouldn’t surprise me.
If a man is into you, you know it. I was married before (I’m a widow). My late husband FROM DAY ONE let me know he was into me.
After a month – he gave me a key to his place.
6 months later – we moved in together.
1 year later – we were married. I never doubted his loved for me ever. When I walked down the aisle everyone in my family was touched by his teary eyed display of love.
I found this blog by accident today. It’s very comforting. It is. I get lonely, but I’ll never excuse wishy washy behavior again. I broke off a serious relationship a couple of years ago. Between his harem of exes and his sick tie to his momma (he was a major mama’s boy) and his push me pull you behavior, I thought I was losing my mind. We broke it off, he’d call and promise to change, I’d take him back, over and over again. 8X’S. Isn’t that stupid? Machochistic?
No more. Now it’s my way or the highway. I look for certain behaviors in men. If they take a cell phone call on a date, are consistently late or exhibit any disrespectful behavior, I dump them flat.
Do I get lonely? Of course I do. Either a man lives to make me happy or he’s gone. For now I’ll continue to love myself.
Like most women here I read the M v V series and tried real hard to take on board the tenets. I even tried to practice what he talked about – giving space and time for the caving, being even more accomodating – all it achieved was an even more unequal balance between us – him up and me down so I quickly ditched it 🙂 Same for the ‘Surrendered wife’ ideas – gosh I sound like a relationship books junkie 🙂 Always working on myself and where does it get us? I was rather shocked to see his true academic history – the back of his books make it sound like he attended Ivy League schools all the way! I am always a bit suspicious of those who study a lot in a mainstream establishment yet leave with no qualifications … shows a lack of something – committment maybe or stamina?
I feel like a rubber band myself right now. Have succesfully ditched the EUM months ago and was feeling good. But now I found out that my current crush just shagged another girl this weekend.
Nothing happened yet between me and the crush cause I wisened up and was careful (thanks NML!) but still I feel kinda down and as if I am not good enough.
And guess what.. I suddenly have this urge to get in contact with the past EUM. Maybe because I know he will welome me back with open arms. At least for a moment.
That only shows that girls who hang out with EUMs have low selfesteem. The minute my selfesteem gets a dent I feel like running to the EUM.
Maybe that is how it works for them too…
Brad, thanks for your reply. I do have friends, and some very good ones too. But you know how it is, you want that special someone who holds you at night. Who gives affection, also physical. And with my friends all settled it´s not allways possible to reach someone when you need them. Or ask a girlfriend to sleepover at a whim because I need a night filled with girltalk and icecream… And so sometimes I feel lonely and vonerable.. and then the EUM comes to mind.. I´ll manage, I haven´t contacted him and I don´t intend to.
But you are absolutely right, it certainly helps to have some contact with someone at those times.
I go to this forum where we talk about food, lifestyle, gossip, whatever. It is a big forum so there is allways someone there and it does give some distaction and human interaction at times that I can´t meet with friends.
I wish I had read this last year when I was going through an awful long distance relationship. I had borrowed the book from my sister and was dating a guy who in the beginning said he loved me, talked about the future, etc., only to retreat time and again. After reading the book, I thought well maybe that’s just how men are and I need to give him some space. I thought it was ME being too demanding, needy, when in fact my GUT was on red alert trying to tell me something was not right. It was a very sick, destructive relationship that I put an end to after 8 months. He had an advantage in that it was a long distance thing and he could portray himself anyway he liked. I really thought he was the guy I had waited for my whole life and he turned out to be a total nightmare.
Amen to this article! Why are we always getting advice on how to adapt to men’s inadequacies? Yes, we all need alone time. When I need autonomy I say, “Hey, I just need a few days to myself,” rather than expecting a guy to wait until I decide to call him. Can men not be as courteous? Must we wait around playing ‘mind reader’ while they have their alone time? All they have to do is say what they mean and mean what they say…that they just need some time alone!
looking at all the comments on the subject of ‘rubber band men’ thought i would add my experience here to get some feedback hopefully…..ok here goes…..I ended a relationship with someone about 4 weeks ago, and i’m in the no contact mode now and struggling as most of us do….only way forward for me though, as i don’t want to remain friends and here what he is doing in his life. After being together approx 15 months he changed the dynamic of our relationship without discussion, and began to pull away, so every conversation by phone was about his big plans etc etc, none of which included me, then promptly asked what my plans were, and indeed what my ‘life goal’ was…..so the messsage I was receiving here was…..we are now friends and he wants to do his own thing mostly, but keep me dangling by text and phone without actually planning for us to spend any time together. Does anyone think this was ‘rubber band action’, or him simply pulling away from the relationship as it was. I didn’t hang around to find out, as the hurt was too much, so fo me that was the end. Love to hear what you all think
Dragonfly14,
On the face of it he ended the “relationship”. He didn’t so much pull back as leave. Rather than be clear about his change, he was a bit flaky in hinting that you had been dumped.
If he could end his time with you this way, it doesn’t seem likely he ever felt he was with you. He sounds like a perpetual dater, and he figured the date was over. If you were looking for a shared life or life-long companion – Sorry.
.-= Brad K.´s last blog ..br: The practice doll =-.
Hi Brad K,
Thanks for your comments on my situation. As with a lot of us on here it seems we knew it wasn’t a life-long relationship, just holding on hoping….i should mention that during my relationship with ‘him’ he lost his Father, after a long illness, needless to say I was by his side through that. Within days of his fathers funeral, everything changed, as though he now had freedom to pursue some of the interests he had been unable to do. So not only was he flaky in his ‘dumping’ he used me as an emotional crutch. We have broken up before more than once, due to a past relationship of his, someone he was involved with who wasn’t going away, but at the same time was never going to commit to being with him. So it was no easy ride dealing with the constant presence of someone from his past.
So an absolute mess really. Amazing that he spent so many hours , days, nights weekends etc with me…….and I have a duaghter of 11 too, who he drew into the whole picture, with his family etc etc. So these are tough times……….and i’m on the 30th day of no contact…I think it’s 3o anyway, so that must be progress of some sort.
Read so many articles on moving on my head is buzzing……I think the hardest part of it all is……filling all that time you spent with someone with new things to do.
really appreciate your reply xx Dragonfly
@ Dragonfly14,
Being a single parent has to be about as tough a task as can be. There is no place for your girl to learn about relationships as thoroughly as what she learns at home.
Hopefully she appreciates the dangers of the Knight in Shining Armor fantasy, and learns that a bozo will remain a bozo, or EUM, or abusive, undisciplined – lacking character – forever. But I hope she also learns, in her heart as well as hearing it said, that there are men of good character interested and able to be a good mate an parent. And that she is going to be the one that has to decide if being with one guy or another is good for her.
Any time someone opens their heart and home to someone they hope will share lives with them, will be a comfort and support as well as someone that needs another to make a home, I pray that the choice of companion is a good choice. Because our action, our choices, affect friends and family as examples and as joys or tears we bring to those we love.
I read about women that use their kids to get dates, as well as those that won’t let the man in their life contact the kids directly. Both approaches appear to avoid some dangers, but both I think are extreme. A parent has to realize that everyone in their life affects the kids directly, indirectly, or both, regardless of whether the person in question ever meets the kids. “If Mama isn’t happy, no one is happy,” is true for all adults and parents.
If I had my druthers, I would say that moving on, getting past the pain, is important at first. But very quickly the point has to be moving to a good place. And any time you have a destination, you have enough work to do to fill up any life time. Instead of thinking of time you used to spend elsewhere, consider what you need to accomplish today, this year, and in the next ten years. Consider what you need to do to know that you never need to put up with immature and undisciplined crap in your life. Consider what your daughter, the rest of your family, and your friends could use from you. Consider whether a pet – an inside cat or dog – might provide a source of need and comfort to help your daughter’s emotional growth and your own healing. Perhaps a counselor or pastor visit might help you discover priorities and opportunities – or issues you have been reluctant to face that are holding you back. Consider whether you could be a little bit – not a lot! – more active in your kid’s life, such as bowling or movie parties, exchanging home overnighters with friends, family or family and friends dinners.
Really, time is the limiting factor, not finding ways to fill it.
Blessed be.
.-= Brad K.´s last blog ..ps: Empowering girls, and self confidence =-.
Some interesting comments there Brad……my daughter has a very full life, and is involved i lots of activitities, including endless sleepovers, girl guides, dance classes etc. We did indeed have a beautiful black labrador as a pet, who very sadly died just before’the breakup’….very traumatic time for us, as he had previously been such a lively part of our family, and he became ill so quickly, he had been part of our family since my daughter was a baby so she didn’t know life without him….so there has been a double loss here, and the man who previously had been so involved with us, kind and caring in every way, chose to be somewhere else when he was needed most here. So a hard lesson. We have wonderful family and friends, so I am ever grateful for them. and I guess really that time will be the healer, and my overal lconclusion is that ‘the man in question’ was not good enough for me as he didn’t step up to the plate in a crisis, which is a very good indicator of his strength of character, and his lack of commitment….I think your suggestion about a counsellor or pastor is certainly valid, tho I’m beginning to regain strength in this adverse situation, and will plough myown furrow on the road to recovery. this forum certainly helps as you know there is a whole world of people going through similar anguish.
@ Dragonfly14,
You had sounded like you were coping well. My specific concern was what lesson in relationships, parenting, and how and when to choose a mate that your daughter is learning.
I was thinking of the counseling not so much as “do this to heal”, as an assistant in identifying all the needed questions, and help sorting out the priorities.
Luck.
.-= Brad K.´s last blog ..tslr: Survival Prep, and choosing a spouse =-.
The person who writes this blog is one intelligent, bright woman! She’s got this down pat! I think EXACTLY what she articulates, so perhaps that is why I am in complete agreement. Even if not, at least it does accomplish one thing: to make women think about whether or not the man she is giving her time (which is her life) to is engaging in unacceptable behavior.
My dignity comes first. Thank goodness for that. Even if I am in pain over not continuing to see the man, at least I don’t put up with crap. I will NOT continue to be sexually intimate with a man that I discover is trying to see other women.