It can be incredibly frustrating to desire healthier relationships and to have done some self work, only to get into a relationship and experience a near assault of confusing emotions that leave us struggling to distinguish between our own issues and the existence of concerns. We can become almost paralysed by the task of needing to work out our next move because we’re afraid of ‘getting it wrong’ due to being unable to tell whether it’s our issues plus a concern, or whether we are manufacturing the concern due to our issues. Is it my issues or am I in the wrong relationship?
In reality, the relationship is highlighting where we need to be more vigilant and ground ourselves in the present so that we can grow and transcend a pattern, but it’s also pointing to an area of work in the relationship. Relationships take two and are 100:100, not 50:50. Once we start trying to cut the relationship in half, that’s where things get messy. We must know where we end and they begin. One person’s idea of doing ‘their share’ may be hogging up the whole relationship or doing very little.
We must honour the fact that we are both responsible for the relationship. Once we are willing to own ourselves, it’s that much easier to know our own feelings, opinions, needs, expectations and desires so we can have a far greater sense of whether we’re in a relationship that’s befitting of us. We can look at how we want to feel and behave and also respond from a place of love, care, trust and respect to our partner. In acknowledging the separateness instead of trying to work out what’s in their head or trying to influence and control their feelings and behaviour so that we can get validation or give ourselves permission to feel and act better, we can see what’s ours and what’s theirs. We can have more honest communication.
Due to childhood experiences, in very high stress situations where I feel vulnerable and upset, there’s a period where I’ll feel very wounded, angry, defensive, or withdrawn. That doesn’t mean that because I initially respond this way that I’m responsible for the situation or the other person’s responses but what I am responsible for is how I continue to act including how I express those feelings and whether I exacerbate them with negative self-talk or whether I calm them by getting present and adjusting my perspective. Due to recognising those feelings and even the onset of certain thoughts, it’s much easier to snap out of them and ground me plus those periods have shrunk considerably over time.
We mustn’t assume that because we have issues that we’re wholly responsible for the existence of a relationship issue and resolving it to a positive outcome. I wouldn’t be helping me if each time something crops up, I dismissed it as abandonment issues or being too sensitive, or I put it on others to adapt their behaviour so that I can feel better, or I owned their responses. Recognising how my past sometimes show itself is my cue to be self-aware, listen, and to take care of me.
To proceed with a relationship and also be able to navigate those inevitable instances when there will be miscommunications or issues to resolve, we must take responsibility for us. If we don’t know what’s ours then at some point, we have become adrift from our core self.
In the early days, weeks and months of a relationship, we can sometimes be so caught up in being swept up or in keeping the relationship, that we stop paying attention to what we truly feel and think. We ignore our needs and sometimes, we ignore concerns. There’s a tendency when we know that we’ve had certain issues and are eager to distance ourselves and not be actively working on them, to then bag and tag anything flagged internally as ‘us’ or play it down. The problem is that by the time our minds, emotions and bodies start giving off warning signals in the form of pain and discomfort, we’ve now established whatever the concerns are as a ‘me problem’ and so we have to retrace our steps and slowly play back the mental tape of the relationship to work out what on earth is going on. We have to attempt to tune in. We have to regain that separateness and this in itself can be painful because we’re either enmeshed or reeling from reality.
Of course, if we’re feeling stressed and are now almost overwhelmed by it, we might struggle to get grounded to figure out what’s what, as well as struggle with the self-care we need to calm ourselves down. We won’t think big picture or separateness; we’ll just keep reacting more than likely from a place of fear and then feel as if we’re making things worse. Then we’ll react again by saying or doing something else or by trying to have a non response.
If we’re trying to engage in damage limitation but we actually have no sense of what we feel, know or need and are operating from the past instead of the present, we will create more problems for us than we solve, and that’s before we even get to how this so-called damage limitation distorts the relationship.
Relationships are 100:100. When we act as if we’re responsible for the other party’s feelings, problems, moods and behaviour, we operate as if it’s 50:50 and then take on some of their share. In not honouring that separateness, it then becomes, for example 85:15 where they do the exam equivalent of getting 15% for showing up and writing their name. That’s why we feel so confused about what we feel because we don’t know if we’re feeling what we’re feeling or we’re hyper-feeling due to also trying to feel theirs. Exhausting! When problems present themselves or the relationship doesn’t end up working out, because we were already taking on too much, it’s an easy slide to now blaming us for why things didn’t work out.
We all have emotional baggage. We will all have our issues regardless of whether we’re in the “right” or “wrong” relationship. We have to unpack, declutter, repack and reclaim, in order to lighten our loads and evolve. Baggage Reclaim.
The goal isn’t to be issue free; it’s more about breaking the pattern of those issues owning and directing us. It’s about being present and having the ability to think of the past without living in it.
It can be frustrating because we work on ourselves and then we think that we’re good to go and then when those old feelings creep in and we’re paralysed with the stress of it all, it feels as if we’ll never be free. We only truly know where we need to do further work when we’re put into situations that typically activate us and then we respond differently. That’s what each relationship presents us with – an opportunity to know and grow ourselves better. Progress not perfection.
Instead of berating or trying to pretend that a concern doesn’t exist, what we really need to be asking is: What can I learn here? Where am I giving away my rights, responsibilities, or power? Where am I keeping me small? How can I respond differently so that I transcend my pattern? How can I hold my own and be in this relationship? Does this relationship and the other party’s behaviour positively reflect my own values or it is mirroring pain for me?
Do jot down your feelings each day to help you get grounded.
Do write out the problem (Unsent Letters can work very well here) or talk about it with somebody to help you gain clarity and perspective.
Do respond instead of reacting.
If there’s an issue, it doesn’t mean that we have to jump ship unless of course we’re trying to work with code red problems and are essentially just having another go at putting the past on repeat. Even if this relationship doesn’t work out, it can still be a good experience for us if we face down old challenges with a fresh approach in the present. We learn how to navigate conflict, criticism and disappointment rather than being on autopilot. If we’re going to stay in a relationship, it needs to be because we want to, not because of what we don’t want. If we can be vulnerable enough to ourselves that we can let the lessons in that we need to, we’re either going to evolve in this relationship or it will provide a window into understanding who we are and what we need so that we are that much closer to a relationship that’s more befitting of us.
Your thoughts?
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After my suck it and see last week i started reading through my papers from the self esteem course which were helpful. This article was what i needed too, a friendly reminder of continuing on course. I will be rereading this as well. Time to refold and reorganize.
Just a moment ago, I posted on Facebook about the importance of deeds matching words.
Last month, an old friend introduced me to her best friend, a woman who’d recently retired like me. We made each other laugh throughout dinner, and when we discovered we both share the world’s most disgusting, politically incorrect habit (smoking cigarettes), we decided to hang out in one or the others’ car after we left the restaurant.
We’re both single, I thought, but right off the bat she told me about an Internet thing she was having with a woman from Ireland. I said it was fine, all I needed was someone to run around with because I was getting out of hermit stage. Seriously, I was fine with it.
In one month we went to dinner maybe 4 or 5 times, but I did all the asking and had to more or less coax her each time.
She said she’s just too lazy to get dressed and go out, but I always coaxed her into it and afterwards she said she was glad I did. Last week on Monday, I invited her to a major art opening which was on Thursday. She said she wanted to think about it a bit and I said fine.
On Tuesday, no contact. Then on Weds. evening I drew a funny post-it note, took a pic of it and texted it to her.
It said, “Art Show’s tomorrow/wanna go?/I hope so/lemme know.” She replied LMFAO. I replied 30 minutes later, yeah, but do ya wanna go? She said she’d let me know tomorrow, the day of the show. I hate that kind of thing.
She didn’t respond at all the day of the show, and I wasn’t about call and ask. She’s a grown ass woman who should understand basic etiquette by now. So I went to the show alone, met up friends and had a great time.
I got home around midnight and 20 minutes later she texted me and asked, “How was it???”
I was so pissed off I knew not to reply right then.
The next afternoon I journaled all my anger and resentments, then I wrote a calm e-mail, mentioning that she didn’t contact me on Thursday like she said she would, and that it hurt my feelings and made me feel “less than.” Then I told her that manners matter to me, and left it at that.
About a nanosecond later she replied, “My error. I will be more direct. My apologies.”
I said to myself, she better back up those canned sounding words, because if she thinks I am going to invite her anywhere again she’s nuts. She needs to take a turn. Fast.
Since Friday…>>crickets<<<.
You are right, as usual, Natalie. I had done a lot of work on myself and felt ready to welcome new friendships with healthy boundaries on both sides. With her being a licensed psychotherapist and sociology professor for 30 years, I figured we could really have a great friendship without needless drama or that horrid passive aggressive bullshit that my ex had in spades.
Anyway, this new woman's apology was hollow and I still haven't heard a word from her. Fortunately, my boundaries and values were hyper alert and I dealt with it right away.
She is OUT. She failed to meet even the basic criteria for friendship.
Natalie, you have taught me not to throw good money or time after bad.
It took her slightly less than a month for her to show me her clown ass. No thanks. 😀
Nice Karen! I am nearly where you are at too & it is feeling great not to waste time with potential friends that aren’t any different than the ACs we have dated, isn’t it!
Yeah! You’d think ordinary friends could be straight up with each other. It just makes me appreciate my old friends more.
Karen,
It sounds to me like she felt uncomfortable telling you that she didn’t want to go! Instead of just telling you she figured if she didn’t call you, you would get the hint. Anyway inconsiderate!
Wow,, Karen — good instincts and good followup! You honored yourself the whole way.
I had to dump a friend who was flaky as heck, who would do the same things (waiting till the last minute, or even standing me up) and after some talks to her about it, nothing changed.
The final straw was when we were going to meet at the movies, and she stood me up, and I realized I was thinking “She damn well better be in the hospital!” as the only rational excuse I’d take. A most ungenerous thought, of course, and I realized I was feeling way “less-than.” Esp. when she texted the next day that she got so busy she “forgot.”
I waited a day or two, and finally said it was not okay that I was treating her like a priority, when she was treating me like an option.
The relationship is over, and while that is sad, I am glad that I think more highly of myself to be treated in such a cavalier way.
This isn’t the first time I’ve learned that psychotherapists can be as crazy as everyone else if not more so. That’s why I put more store in helping myself with books, meditation, Nat, blogs, etc, than one therapist. I mean, seriously, she should be mature enough to be able to say “no” to someone.
Diane. SOME psychotherapists. I said the same thing less than a month ago when I told the story of my batty ex-friend psychotherapist who agreed to meet me at a women’s luncheon, then turned around and stood me up. Similar situation as Karen’s the woman couldn’t make the choice to be straightforward, so she was shady instead. Still, as with anyone else it’s not fair to generalize. There are some who are quite good. I have recommended therapy because I, personally, have had very positive experiences. My longtime psychologist recently retired but she gave me a recommendation for her replacement. The new woman is “only” a social worker and I had my doubts about her effectiveness, but she is just as good. People come with all different qualifications. Having been an RN for >35yrs I know that, when it comes to human science, in particular, degree of interest and attitudes play a significant role in the efficacy of the practitioner. That aside, I understand your point that you don’t think relying on one person for professional help is wise. I agree as I, myself, have relied on books, magazines, classes and of course Natalie’s blog, anything that I deemed helpful on my journey and have come a looong way. Imo, in order to benefit from any endeavor you have to be OPEN to receive it. When I advise therapy in my comments, I will usually suggest it as one source of help out of many. If, imo, someone’s issues are beyond the help they can find on BR, I may suggest seeing a professional in person, period. It has been my experience that one needs to attain a certain degree of mental quietness in order to benefit from reading, whereas talking to an appropriately trained individual may be more beneficial as a start.
By no means am I “playing therapist” and certainly don’t want any readers to think, “OH, here we go again”. On the contrary, I am strongly against diagnosing and labeling individuals over the internet in an attempt to be helpful and share “knowledge”.
P.S. Loved
the new photos of you. So professional and glamorous, well deserved. Kudos.
I have been on this emotional roller coaster of the exact feelings illustrated above for over a year. I am totally aware of how I am behaving and why I’m behaving in this way but can’t seem to stop. He wanted me so much at the beginning and charmed the pants off me (literally) then after a month or so he completely cooled off. I was left wondering ‘what have I done wrong, why doesn’t he want me any more?’ I panicked and tried to contact him more, ignoring my gut instinct that was telling me to stop lowering myself. The worrying thing is is that every time I meet a man like him I am reliving my relationship with my ex husband and my father who were both physically and mentally abusive. All I wanted was for them to love me. If I can get these type of men to love me then I have won a conquest I have been fighting for years! The annoying thing is is that I’m aware of what im doing and no matter how much I tell myself not to do it next time I still do! Of course it doesn’t happen with any nice men that I meet as they don’t present the challenge!! I just wish that I could learn and move on from this vicious cycle. I finally said goodbye to this man who has been manipulating my vulnerability for over a year now as I realised he’s never going to give me the validation that I crave. I have tried to do NC so many times with him but it’s like a scratch I need to itch… I just keep thinking one last go… Only to feel even worse and more humiliated. I need to stick to it this time but really don’t know how to go about making me love me instead of needing an EU man to love me which I realise will never happen!! Nat although I am still struggling with lots of stuff I find your facebook page and blog truly inspirational! Thank you!
sian: you are not alone.
despite reading all natalie’s very, very wise articles and also being an experienced older woman, divorced with adult children, self supporting, independent, etc., i’m letting myself act like a fool over a narcissistic bastard. like your guy, he was wonderful in the beginning, about 8 months, then things changed fairly abruptly. over the next year, he backpedaled on what he said he wanted-a life with me. this is after we got engaged, mind you. next thing, he decides he doesn’t want us to get a place together, then drops the whole marriage thing, and in the late fall, sees me less and less. claims all these family obligations. since i fell for this the first few times, he continued using this excuse. when it became too blatant, and he started spending a lot of time checking his phone, i knew what was up. short story: serial liar and cheater. i broke up with him.
but, i didn’t hold my bottom line. maybe it’s because i truly feel he’s the last relationship i’ll have, i let him back in. told myself i’d just take what he could give. after 6 weeks of my giving and his taking, i realize i’ve been an idiot. he’s obviously still seeing other women and here i am getting the occasional text and a weekly overnight.
but, i’m not being too hard on myself this time around. this is his fault and his loss. i’ve taken the baby step of not getting in touch with him (it’s been 2 days). this will ultimately lead to either his getting out of the picture or my letting him know i won’t put up with his sh*t anymore.
so, hang tough and don’t beat yourself up. these bastards do a job on us, but, with help and time, we can do better.
Sian and Ariel. These men don’t want you. You have to face that hard core fact. I know it’s very difficult to get over the loss but you have no choice. Get to it NOW. You both are older in age, experienced women, as am I. Wouldn’t you like to honestly call yourselves “mature” also, mentally and emotionally? You can’t say that when you act children. As Natalie would say these “men are not your last chance saloon.” There’s so much you can do for yourselves but you have got to TRY. This is not the end of the world. People have loved and lost since the beginning of time and no one ever died because their chosen one didn’t love them, except in Hollywood. You ladies need to grow a backbone. Kick their asses to he curb and move on. I seriously suggest since both of you sound like your over 40, that you seek some form of counseling if at all possible. This is madness and you could definitely benefit from a professional in this area. I was once where you are to a certain degree. But, I finally realized that, “my Mama didn’t raise no fool”, and I had been acting like one for the worst reason – an AC man. Pull yourselves together. Both of you and get to working on YOU. Life is too short to spend a minute being unhappy if it can be avoided. It up to YOU.
I didn’t even realize I suggested a lot of what Better Than Ever said below.
Ariel. Don’t you dare go back. You’ve passed 2 days, do 2 more until you discover it’s been two months. It get’s easier with the passing of time and strict NC. It really does. And do this for YOU. Don’t think of it as a punishment for him and that he will “see the light”. He won’t. They won’t. You gotta be NC because you’re going on to better things, a better life. Good luck to both of you, Serene.
Serene, as another not-so-young woman, I may understand what Sian and Ariel are going through. Particularly Ariel. This is what narcissists do, what has been done to her. It’s not about a lack of a backbone, it’s the confusion and spin they put us through before we finally recognize their narcissistic patterns. (see the book “Narcissistic Lovers”) It may take more time to see through their very practiced manipulation before we dump them, is all. Narcissism is an insidious and subtle dynamic.
Thanks, Nina. What you have said sheds light on my thoughts about women having such difficulty extricating themselves from men who are not far from actual demons. Having no experience with Narcissists I am at a loss advising women who are caught up in that particular type of drama. I’m lucky in that respect but my eyes and heart are opened wider after your post. I appreciate it.
As another woman well versed in ex Narcisist lovers and non Narcissist lovers and abuse from childhood – I would like to say all of your alarm above – it is well justified over the two stories I read – either knowing or not knowing Narcissists – for this reason and this reason alone –
the women above in accepting the behaviour they describe…. are NOT giving themselves the love and care that THEY need and they are in fact telling the abusers that it is acceptable to do whatever they want – no matter how painful – meaning the abuser has no reason or incentive to treat them with ANY respect or care – let alone love – having been there I predict – they are both hoping that they will gain love from people who are proven to be completely incapable of loving them by being better, sexier, quicker, clever people etc….
Period.
Be alarmed! Be VERY alarmed! This IS how you end up in hospital and it is self harm to deny yourself – and that includes your feeling and instincts – take it from someone who has been there also and has come out the other end, please.
Life and love is so much better than this and there is not one person alive who does not deserve love from somewhere in their life. Romantic love can be found at all ages in life – there is no rule on when it stops happening – watch Last Tango in Halifax + there must be other examples in your own lives that you know of?
Treat it like it is your right to have love and read all the past posts on this site.
The longer you leave it – the worse it gets.
Make the mental decision to stop it now.
Get prepared with contingency plans for getting rehooked.
Protect yourself – Watch for any backlash – when they don’t get their own way Narcs can be totally vindictive – BUT DO NOT LET THIS PUT YOU OFF STOPPING IT – because it WILL get worse if you don’t, far, far worse in ways you cannot imagine until it has happened and you are stuck in it.
Do this for yourselves if not anyone else. Please. It is not worth it – it really isn’t. And it certainly is not a loving way to treat anyone. I guarantee you will not get love from these men. Put yourself first.
I’m going to leave you with something someone once told me which I didn’t feel or understand at the time….when you feel it and understand it you know you are in the right place mentally and emotionally.
These people are not worth one hair on your head.
Good luck.
Sian,
The reason you are feeling this way is because you are still in the grieving stage of your relationship. In order for you to move on and break the cycle you must move to the acceptance stage. Acceptance is what brings you peace because you no longer look for answers to questions that may never be answered.
You just accept that it is what it is and you can’t change what happened. The only thing you can do is change your behavior and learn from your mistakes. This is where soul searching comes into play because it can’t just be about all things he did wrong. You have to look at your actions in this relationship as well as past ones to see how your behavior has contributed to the demise of your relationship. You might be suprised that many of problems you brought on yourself! Harsh but sometimes true.
Sian, while it might seem that you are meeting the same men and doing the same things, you’re actually not. You didn’t marry this one, you got out within a year. Your spirals of repetition and validation seeking are getting narrower and shorter.
What would happen if you forgave your father, mother, and ex? That is to say no longer were looking for reassurance from them? No longer looking to redress that wrong? I can’t imagine any other way through this because mentally you know you are doing something that doesnt work so its not like you can think your way through it. Perhaps sometimes whats needed is a way around rather than through.
There is an interesting passage in a book i read about why we sometimes hang on to our past stories and past pain over things. That those stories start to define us. You see yourself defined by; craving validation, craving drama, knowing whats right but unable to do it, trying to get unavailable men to accept you because your parents didn’t. [i say parents because with one problematic parent, the other is indirectly involved]. By staying stuck, you give your story more life, and your parents more responsibility for what is happening to you now. If you let go of that pain (even without forgiving but just accepting and ceasing to hold them responsible for your current patterns), it might make you stop looking to recreate the past. It prevents you moving on and taking responsibility. [Yes of course I do the exact same thing! I think we believe ourselves to be unlovable so we are attracted to people that will oblige].
These kind of compulsive behaviors show we are not happy. We are hanging onto outmoded ways of doing things, too afraid to really let ourselves go, to move beyond the sad things that we think define us. To really recognize that we are capable of more, because that is taking responsibility in the most scary way.
So I can’t think of any other way around for those of us with difficult childhoods, but to let go. And redefine stories, and redefine life. We are circumscribed within a narrow range of emotions, too afraid to feel outside that range, to think outside the range, because of the fear that we dont deserve good things. Some part of us is stuck craving validation and not knowing what to do. Its okay to let go and to embrace your ability to experience new things in life.
My Dear Sian. I am very sorry if I sounded harsh and impatient regarding your situation. You came here to BR for helpful advice, not criticism. My form of advice often is like a shock treatment, tough love approach. That is because I get so angry when I read certain stories which reflect deep pain and helplessness to alleviate the trauma caused by the male species. But, at the same time, others cannot hurt you unless you allow it. This is why sometimes it may be said that one brought it on her or himself. This blog of Natalie’s is all about healing YOU, not someone else. There are BR readers who can take tough love advice realizing the intention is well meaning. Then there are those who require a softer approach. I feel you are in the latter category. Please know that my heart goes out to you and you find your way through your troubles. All the best, Serene.
Serene,
I love you and your approach. Keep kickin’ our asses please. The tough love shock treatment sinks in eventually even if initially some are offended. The truth isn’t always pretty but it may shake some sense loose if given straight up.
Thanks, Selkie. It means a lot for you to tell me that. I truly don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. I feel that by the time we come to BR we have ruminated, beat ourselves up, made ourselves “less than” in comparison with these AC, EUM men. Imo, the time for coddling and sympathy has passed and it is time to “wake up and snap out of it”. But, I fully realize it’s not a simple process, but there’s always room for seeking appropriate help and trying harder.
I expect a lot of people who come here are told to ‘wake up and snap out of it’ in their daily lives by people who ‘mean well’ but have neither patience nor understanding of what they have been through. Does it ever have the desired effect? Maybe it invalidates and isolates them even more than they were already, and maybe in this place of all places they should expect their feelings to be respected and not dismissed with comments like ‘get a backbone’. We all come to our healing at our own pace, and so called tough love can be very harmful to someone whose emotions are raw and whose sense of who they are has been broken by a narcissist. The last thing you need is yet another person telling you how wrong you are, however well intentioned they may be. So there’s another perspective for you.
Yes yes and yes!
My very best wishes to you Natalie. As you explain in the text, it is not a question of is it me or is it the other party but what part of the issue is your doing and what part is his/her doing. Best, V.
Yes!
I think it’s often a combination of both…my issues rubbing up against or bounces off their issues.
I think that quote Camillah shared on the previous post is also very pertinent to the subject matter in this topic.
“Grief can be the garden of compassion. If you keep your heart open through everything, your pain can become your greatest ally in your life’s search for love and wisdom”
Absolutely! There’s always a lesson there (and a silver lining) if we are open to it.
@sian and @ariel,
It can be so so hard when someone back pedals like this and leaves you hanging so abruptly. I too have dealt with that recently and the chasing for validation and the love that was initially there can leave you so cold and humiliated. It really isn’t worth it, but can be so hard to stop. No contact is the way! And while the initial early days/week s are hard, you will get through it and you will get better especially if you do some other work on yourself during that time (ie, counseling, self esteem course, reading Nats posts, writing out lists of what’s weong with this guy, etc.). Good luck to you! Even recognizing that you need to make the change and taking the first difficult steps for real can be tough. Pat yourself on the back for your progress and keep going!
This post can not be more timely. Been NC for 3 months and all this time i was still wondering did my issues that caused what happened in the relationship, or was it the other way around. Thank you for ” getting into my head” and shed some light on the matter Natalie 🙂
devi. NC is not just physical it must be mental also. That means unload that mental crap, wondering what you did wrong, and asking yourself (not him) all sorts of questions. You won’t get the answers you want. The answer you’re not ready for is that it didn’t work out. You tried. It’s over. Time to focus elsewhere. Better Than Ever gave good advice. Take it.
I needed this post today – what a weekend I’ve had!
So the guy that u-turned, then apologised, then told me I was everything he wanted in a woman – well we met up for the first time since then and now he has u-turned again and said he feels no spark for me (!)
I managed to get that out of him after a very strange evening together FULL of mixed messages and inappropriate behaviour. I casually queried what his intentions were (As I was super confused) and that’s what I got.
What have I learned from this? Actually a lot. Instead of letting a relationship develop in my head based on what he was NOT saying. I got real and looked at his actions/versus words. I then addressed it with him and made sure to explain to him exactly why I found him confusing.
So far, he has been humble and genuinely trying to get it what I am saying to him. Yes he is still EU – that is clear to me. What is also clear to me is that I cannot blame his EUness for the problems in our past relationship or a potential relationship any more. I have to stay real. Look at what the situation is and keep myself grounded in reality.
Reality being; this guy has a harem of female friends that I always kind of know are there but I thought I was more important to him. – Perhaps I am but he is not “there” yet.
He used to be a serial dater and has now moved on to a serial female befriend-er. lol! I’m not about to join into that.
But guess what…I realise this is MY responsibility! I have to look out for myself and my feelings. He will not do it for me. Similarly I have to respect where he is.
Addressing it full on was refreshing, instead of sitting on an uncomfortable feeling.
I am learning to give 100% in all of my relationships platonic or otherwise and in me doing that I can see quite quickly when someone else is not. I am learning alot about myself and bringing that into my relationships. I am standing on my own and looking for someone to stand beside me.
Until then, I’m great and I’m learning 🙂
Boo. That’s wonderful. Such good news to hear about women taking care of themselves and not waiting around for lotsa crap to come down on them before they wake up and confront what doesn’t add up or make sense to them. Your instincts will tell you. You didn’t ignore his behavior and found out you were right not to just ignore. Good for you. Onward and upward.
That is HUGE!!! Congratulations! I bet you feel wonderful and powerful!
Yay Boo! 🙂
“I am learning to give 100% in all of my relationships platonic or otherwise and in me doing that I can see quite quickly when someone else is not.” Gold really. Not quite there yet but progressing rapidly. Thanks for telling an uplifting story. V.
Thanks guys for all your words of encouragement. This really is appreciated 🙂
Yeah it does feel great and liberating and powerful but at the same time as is said in Spider-man:
“With great power comes great responsibility”
After the initial euphoria wore off, I was left feeling a bit urgh.
I went to bed super early last night because of course all this drama with him, coincided with a very emotional weekend where I went back to my home town for a few days. Last night I was physically and mentally drained.
Going back home after many months away, where I have been making a deeper effort to work on my issues, brought my issues right up close again.
My family situation is issue ridden. I have grown up to be a woman who struggles with relationships because of the family I was brought up in.
Many of us have things from our past that impact our present reality,and as this post acknowledges, it is sometimes hard to see where our issues end and the relationship problems begin.
I realised some time ago that I was also EU and as I work on that it is still painful to experience that someone else has not got to the place where they can match you yet. I guess I felt like all the work I had done meant he had also done his work and that maybe just maybe for once, it could work out for me with someone I care about.
To realise that he had changed somewhat but not nearly enough for a healthy relationship was heartbreaking. I was able to look out for myself because of what I have learnt in the last few years. I know what I want and need but still it is hard to have to keep working on my issues with just blind faith that it will work out for me in the end.
I know that doing this work on ourselves is not really about instant results with others. I know that really it is about living the best life we can, but boy it is sometimes tough to keep coming up against situations that I wish I could leave behind.
So yes – onwards and upwards 🙂 I am glad that my story was uplifting 🙂 I hope that things continue to get better. My peace of mind is worth the work.
Bx
Hugs. Hugs. Hugs. We are collectively on your side, shaking our heads up and down, saying yes. Yes, we know it is so good to finally find our way but sometimes also sad that it pushes us forward into yet another unknown. You have made a huge step for yourself.
Yes it is important to be able to allow yourself to grieve fully, as well as celebrate whatever you have gained. I am sorry to hear it did not work out this time Boo but I notice you are truly listening to yourself and communicating your needs really well here.
Give yourself some good pampering Boo, to go along with the grieving – what ever YOU need – you deserve it also – with or without the man. Nice things that genuinely make you feel good – not ones that you’ll regret when you wake up tomorrow morning or the morning after that. And if you don’t know what your pampering needs are – time to try some out – find ones that are sensory based – like food, warm heat, going somewhere new you’ve always wanted to go.
Yay Boo! Knowing when to hold and knowing when to fold comes with self love and practice. Dropping the drama and just facing reality head on makes short order of cutting through the confusion. You are a fine example. Thanks for sharing. The work does pay off.
Timely article. I just started dating a really nice man. Thought he had potential. Then he started telling me that he is really lonely and so glad he found me. Started dropping off meals to me. Then when I set up a dinner date with a couple that are friends of mine, he told me afterwards that he wasn’t real happy that we went out with friends because he wanted me to himself. Red flag? Then he told me that when he starts to kiss me, I start out okay, but then back away. Well..he wants to sit on the couch and makeout…I’m not in high school! Thank goodness I made the decision not to sleep with him until I get to know him. But he’s not happy about that either. And then he told me that when he was away on a recent trip that he couldn’t wait to get home to see me, and was disappointed that I didn’t miss him. How can I miss someone that I barely know??
So I begin wondering if it’s my issue and not him. Why do I want the bad boy instead of the nice guy? This man gives me all kinds of attention. But I immediately feel smothered and the chemistry is just missing. And I know myself well enough to know that if the chemistry isn’t there, I might as well move on.
So I sit here today asking myself….is it me? Am I not able to adjust to kindness? But then I also know that he is really dependent on me at a very early stage. Ugh. Dating sucks.
Rewind, it’s not your issue and he is not a “nice guy”. Pay attention to your instinct about the red flags. How many flags do you need to have before you decide to not pursue something with a man? Almost everything you’ve said about him screams red flags – love-bombing, controlling, isolating, telling you how you should be feeling about him. He seems to be a control-freak in waiting….possibly dangerous.
This is way presumptuous on my part, I certainly can’t tell you what to do, but I don’t think you are ready to date. You keep trying on men like they are the glass slipper that must fit so that you can be Cinderella. And you don’t seem to trust that YOU know what you want or don’t want. You don’t want to make out with him, that is all you need to know, and you don’t need to explain it to him. Try being on your own for a while, until you observe a guy who ticks off enough good things on your “want-in-a-mate” list that you want to date him repeatedly, not just because he asked you out and you have nothing better to do. Learn to like hanging with yourself for a while. Dating does suck when you keep requiring that whoever you date must become your Prince Charming.
Elgie / Rewind,
I agree, not a good guy. He seems to be trying to fast forward.
Excellent advice. I don’t know if this applies to Rewind but sure is excellent advice to me. I remember very clearly that when I broke up with my fiance’ I dated a guy, and I was so pissed off at every little thing that he did ‘wrong’ that I wanted to chew his head off. Of course I was taking out on him my frustration about my previous break-up. This doesn’t mean that he was right for me – he wasn’t – but that on top of the fact that he was not right for me I was not ready to date either. A massive waste of time really. V.
Thanks, Elgie. Great advice. I am finding that hanging with myself and my family is a good thing. I’ve been conditioned for so long that a man is a necessity.
Hugs!
Rewind, a man is only a necessity when you can’t reach the cans on the top shelf. And even then, not so much.
Nina. Not so much. You get on a step stool or ladder. LOL!
ha!
Rewind, red flags everywhere and he sounds like he’s trying to control you, where you go and who you see. Bad news girl, run away. This isn’t your issue it’s his. Your personal electric fence is up and running, don’t ignore it.
Ended the dates with this man. It was beginning to get creepy. He showed up at my work yesterday to “surprise” me after I told him that I didn’t think it was going to work out. So I told him I was done, and that I hoped he would respect my decision. He was just too needy. I still need to continue my quest to work on ME.
“He showed up at my work yesterday to “surprise” me after I told him that I didn’t think it was going to work out.” That’s scary, stalkerish behavior.
Yep, creepy and controlling. Good for you, there is better out there.
Holy cats. This is starting to sound like the dude who stalked me last year. Be careful. Wish I could loan you my hundred pound dog.
When I had my epiphany so long ago I realized I had relationship patterns that contributed to meeting the wrong men. I realized that I didn’t get to know the guys I dated that well before I got intimate with them. I wasn’t really concerned with whether I had a relationship with them and was content with having a FWB relationship.
Meeting the EUM woke me up big time. Even though I dated a couple of losers after him, I started to be more conscience of my decision making when it came to relationships. I never though I had low self-esteem, but some momentary lapses in judgement along with abandonment issues. This is why I dealt with the EUM as long as I did. It wasn’t about him, it was about me too. Now that’s not to say he wasn’t the wrong person (which he was), but because of my issues, I dealt with the nonsense.
Once I woke up I found out somethings: 1
1. I realized I didn’t really want to be with any of the men I previously dated. They were all wrong for one reason or another.
2. I needed to slow down and get to know people and use my new found knowledge of men to guide me.
3. I was okay being alone! I actually liked my own company and didn’t need to be with someone that connect with both emotionally and physically.
Awesome! I am striving to this place, get a view of it every now & then, too.
I understand where you are coming from, I feel the same way these days.
Some people I know find it very hard to understand why I won’t just take on any man as a partner and they just don’t understand when I say I’m very happy on my own right now. I’m viewed with suspicion by some married women who seem to think I’m lying and after their bloody awful husbands. A couple of these guys seem to think I’m up for a bit on the side because I’m single (and desperate). They have since found out I’m not. One of them I had to kick very hard in the shin when he grabbed me (when his wife wasn’t around of course). I was very angry and still am but he’s got the message loud and clear now.
Nothing much changes with some of these guys, they have been behaving badly since they were kids and find no reason to change. I can be a bitch at times and you know what, I like it when dealing with assclowns, they leave me strictly alone afterwards.
Yes. And I don’t know about you but I get approached by the ACMM’s which makes me doubly angry.
Yes, it’s a pity more women don’t tell these ACMM’s to take a hike when they hit on them. It’s offensive and demeaning to be slotted in some mans life as his plaything, why the hell do they think any woman would be interested in some grubby little hole in the corner relationship.
They make me angry and I have to stop myself wanting to mess with their heads – or – kick them in the balls!
I’ve never been a violent person but when that creep grabbed me I just lashed out, it felt very good too. It wasn’t the first time he had slithered up behind me and startled me, enough was enough.
Correction:
3. I was okay being alone! I actually liked my own company and didn’t need to be with someone that I did not connect with both emotionally and physically.
NML/ Serene, others
What if the relationship is with a family member?
I had a lightbulb moment on another BR post last week, when someone pointed out to me and I realised that as a child I’d been put down so much by my mother and brother and extended family, and criticised so much (and when I cried they would say it was not their fault I was oversensitive) that I’d come to think it normal that if someone is cruel or puts you down, you still have to put up with it and go back to them if they offer you anything. Ie are your family. Or – as was case last year- a MM sleeping w other people aside from his wife who just says he will always be there for you. But was not (It ended).
It suddenly makes sense: I had a phone call with my mother today in which she put me down in a round about way (my inadequacy finding a man/ my job/ my saying I was having a nice time doing something) and I burst into tears afterwards.
But it’s Mother’s Day next weekend. Then her birthday . Then she’ll visit me to stay after that and its always the same scenario- she says I’m a bad daughter if I don’t do things for or with her or complain about her., vows she won’t stay again but does. We stopped holidays together when I realised about 5 yrs ago how miserable I felt afterwards.
As I’m sitting here in tears I realise it’s the same sick ill feeling as I had when I knew MM was lying to me. The one where Im bad if I’m not nice/ don’t send something. I’m hurt but *have* to go back for more. Just like I have done for 40 yrs w my mother.
Weirdly since going NC with MM, I realised I also don’t want to talk to my mother. I thought it was because I’m just in a bad place but I’m not sure.
But I feel trapped less about MM but about her.
I know exactly where I learnt the habit of going back to someone who had hurt you. I made a mistake w MM.
I am very wary about bring close to people- I know already I think if they hurt me or let me down ill hate myself for staying friends or “going back”. Same with a boss or colleagues: I keep my distance so they don’t hurt me. I don’t want to be close.
But what if the relationship is with your mother? And siblings? How do I undo these awful awful damaging patterns that suddenly explain everything and relationships w men (not all but some)
It’s like feeling hurt is a default feeling for me. And I don’t hate myself but I do when I go “back” to my mother knowing she will hurt me, when inside I’m crying.
ICBIFT, perhaps it is your issues and yes, the wrong relationship. Most people who come to BR and scratch the surface of their unhappiness come to find they have unresolved issues related to their childhood and parents. This will need to be worked through and understood to grow and mature. Perhaps you would benefit from professional therapy, something more than what people here can provide in a “misery loves company” sharing.
I have noticed over many months a lot of women come here who have been having sexual intercourse with married men. They now say the men are assclowns,emotionally unavailables, liars, cheats, promised them a future but the TRUTH is a women who has sex knowingly with a man who is married has major issues. The woman is aiding and abetting the affair. She may be a sweetheart and the nicest person in the world which enables the man to enjoy and profit from the sex because she is so happy to provide it to him. A married person is dealing on a daily basis with going to work, buying the groceries, going over the finances and the bills of the day, bathing the kids and getting ready for school the next day. It’s a bit boring. When a husband walks in the door the wife may be weary from her day and need her time and support, and may not feel like ripping the clothes off her husband and hopping into bed for sex. But a husband/man may be very excited by having some illicit exciting forbidden sex on the side and some secret encounters. He is not looking for a relationship, he wants some sex. The truth hits hard for the ladies who land on BR. I’ve read stories here where men impregnate their mistresses and abandon them at the airport to go home to their wife and kids. Or They impregnate their wife, and boom we now have a new BR reader wondering why he was so mean to her. I had no idea how common it was for women to be sexually available for married men.
NML, perhaps you can address this soon. I see the frailty
of marriage commitment and the frailty of the family reeking havoc on modern society, and it’s the women who seem to be bearing the unhappiness of this way.
I disagree that this is a site where mistresses are shocked to find the married man is not leaving his wife. BR discusses emotional unavailability. When it comes to dealing with married men, this site is about recognizing the emotional unavailability in our SELF, which is part of the reason we are dealing with an already attached male or female.
There are a lot of sites that blame the downfall of marriage on the “other woman” – this isn’t one of those sites. I never understand why the fault isn’t placed equally on the married person’s shoulders. BR is about seeing that we are choosing to do harmful emotional things to ourselves and recognizing it is in our power to stop the madness.
So far as believing if “other women” did not open their legs, married men couldn’t cheat…to that I say if there were no bars, people wouldn’t become alcoholics…if there were no casinos, people wouldn’t gamble away the mortgage…..? Not true. Most of the women talking about ACMM were hotly pursued by the ACMM. So the frailty of commitment began there. At what point is some blame placed on the wayward spouse’s shoulders? And what of those marriages where they’ve agreed to be “open” as a cure to keep the marriage and family intact? That could leave the extracurricular person very emotionally shattered, and in need of BR to understand how to navigate out of the disappointment and move to something better.
No, ACMM is an appropriate term for those spouses who intentionally mislead a single person. “My” ACMM was not one of those, however. BR helped me understand that I was with a withholder, someone who, once they identify what it is you need will make sure that they don’t give it to you. It showed me my penchant for placing someone on a pedestal, made me question why I thought crumbs were a loaf…sometimes the honesty here made me walk away from my laptop.
So…something in your post sounded accusatory toward other women, as if we are just hanging around like vultures waiting to destroy good marriages and win the husband for ourselves. If he cheats with you he’ll cheat on you. And a lot of times the people who send us to BR are single.
Elgie
Well said.
Agreed Elgie R. And how interesting this bit about the “withholder”: oh boy oh boy if he did that, the little sadist. Who, by the way, was my fiance – no MM in this story. V.
Oh V., You just made a connection for me…funny how I can make a connection intellectually, but it doesn’t make it all the way through until something sparks it.
The withholder…being a sadist. I’ve unfortunately had a lot of withholder’s in my life and this will help me heal that pattern. Thank you!
ICBIFT, Your story resonated with me on so many levels. Thank you for sharing it. I’m sorry you are in such pain. I believe I understand that pain. My parents were both cruel, insensitive and often indifferent and I was/am a sensitive person.
When you grow up having to rely on someone – for your very survival – that hurts you constantly, it messes with your perceptions/judgement of what is “normal” “healthy” “appropriate”. Because being hurt is familiar, it’s doesn’t always register as being “wrong”, or at least not as wrong as it really is. I have spent most of my life with a very high threshold for abuse because I was abused. The behavior didn’t even hit my raidar as something was wrong.
When our parents don’t have healthy boundaries, they can’t teach us healthy boundaries. We end up just taking it, being hurt and sad (and likely somehow making it our fault). It’s painful and dangerous to get close to someone who keeps hurting us, so we eventually start protecting ourselves by keeping our distance emotionally and/or by denying it’s as bad/hurtful as it is.
The fact that you are recognizing the pattern of going back to someone that has hurt you and made the connection to your relationship with your mother is VERY important in your healing.
Instead of just repeating the pattern over and over again without seeing why, you can now make a different choice! You see it for what it is and that gives you options for responses you didn’t see before. It’s painful but also freeing.
It sounds like you’ve been working on setting boundaries with your mom but she manipulates you out of them. I don’t know about you, but guilt was always the manipulation of choice to get me in my family. They knew I was a softy so they would play on that – using guilt.
It’s not easy changing patterns with your family. They like you in the role you’re are in and they will resist you in changing it. They will actually up the ante when you set boundaries!! Only you know what you are willing to accept and not accept. You have the right to be treated well by your family and you also have the responsibility to yourself to protect yourself if they don’t.
You have to be firm and consistent with your mom. Mom, when you criticize/guilt/blame me (or whatever), I feel_____. Then let her know that if she doesn’t stop, that you will _____(get off the phone immediately when she starts criticizing, blaming, guilting) or whatever boundary you want to set. And follow through. Eventually she/they will realize you’re not going to cave, not going to go back to being their doormat/scapegoat/?. You can’t change them but you can affect a change in your relationship by changing your behavior.
You are allowed to go NC with your mom. It’s a last resort of course, but it’s okay.
I was NC with my mom. I tried for many, many years. It was a one sided relationship. I did all the work – I called, I listened to her talk about herself, she would ask about one of my other siblings, but never me. I always felt deep sadness and rejection every time I talked with her. I would have to mentally prep to make the phone call. The last conversation I had with her was very healing for me. I told her that I needed her to call me next time. I let her know that I loved her but would not be calling her, that it was up to her to call me if she wanted to talk with me. She never made that call.
All those years I was hurting myself. Going back to the well, hoping this time it would be different. She would be different. I finally accepted that I wanted more, I deserved more. She wasn’t willing or able to give it to me and I had to accept that truth.
Because they are your family doesn’t give them the right to treat you poorly. You can protect yourself and you have a responsibility to yourself to do so.
I can tell you that when you do, it gets better!! You will start to trust yourself to protect yourself. Eventually you will trust yourself enough to let someone who has earned your trust in…let them get close.
I read somewhere and have come to realize that you have to be willing to risk losing everything to gain (save) yourself.
I hope this helps. My thoughts are with you, I know it’s painful.
Veracity
My experience with my mother has been very similar. She really was the source of my pain and i was raised w the pattern of returning to the source of my pain until like you i expected effort from her as well. Then crickets except for 2 times in 10 years of brief attention seeking crumbs. No effort even there. I appreciate your story i feel less alone.
Thanks, HappyAgain. I’m sorry that you had to deal with it too. I too appreciate hearing others’ stories and knowing I’m not alone.
HappyAgain, Have you found that you have repeated that pattern of doing all the work in the relationship with all of your relationships? Just curious. Both of my parents were checked out, and in the past all of my relationships – men/women were one-sided. Veracity
Veracity
I very much found many of my relationships were out of balance. Family and some friendships especially. Ive had to move on from many relationships and find new people who i can give to and receive from. They are out here we just have to give to takers less of us and move on. 🙂 Things have improved in that area by accepting people for who they show me they are and using the debit and credit system for trust and taking time to see the relationship (friendship or romantic) is growing mutually.
Yep.
ICBIFT. I wanted to reply last night, floundering about what to say, but this morning I realized I should keep it short and sweet. I thank you for mentioning my name next to Natalie. You are far too generous as I don’t begin to have Natalie’s talent. Fortunately, you encouraged anyone to speak up and they have done so. My hesitation was due to the fact that the issue of a toxic parent is quite foreign to me. My mother was a very strong, supportive and loving woman. My only complaint was that she wasn’t particularly nurturing. That was because she was very task oriented and involved with aiding less fortunate persons outside of the home. As a child, I resented this. As an adult I learned to be more understanding and more willing to share her with the rest of the world. In light of that fact I really cannot advise you since I have little experience with your issues regarding your mom. However, there is always someone else here who can speak with authority about the toxic parent issue. All the best, Serene.
icbift – to address the what do I do if it is family not just the ex – your instinct is top notch – it is the same. Boundaries, Boundaries, Boundaries.
But of course your family has been receiving your special treatment probably over many many years and so may not give it up with out a fight. Que the emotional blackmail – which you clearly define your mother as using, q the emotional abuse which of course is so well rehearsed and knowledgeable of all your weaknesses and strengths it is able to be returned on you quickly and easily can incapacitate you – over and over again breaking your self esteem and returning you safely back to submission.
The things I use to deal with this are the same as a romantic relationship:-
1 carefully and regularly listen to my instincts about everyone around me. Is this person making me feel good or bad? Do I feel good or bad without them? Am I pretending to be someone else or have different feelings on the outside to what they really are on the inside? I do this by writing my feelings out and putting those papers somewhere very safe that no one else can get to them.
2 put in place clear, direct boundaries if things are not good.
‘When you do xxx it makes me feel xxx and the consequences are xxx.’ – do not get drawn into long what have I done discussions.
3 do not allow yourself to be drawn into a bargaining or ‘compromising’ position ever. Your needs must be met period – real compromise is when a way is found to accommodate both side’s needs not just one sides needs while the other drops theirs.
4 if boundaries are broken – if an amber flag repeat them once and then if again? – withdraw completely – if red? withdraw – after that until or if a real understanding is met from the person and the behaviour never repeated again.
5 build up an alternate support network that is truly supportive ie a number of places and people you can go to to be yourself and know you are accepted for who you are, as you are – that are separate to your family – so you can go to them with or without your family’s support and carry on thriving with your life.
This is where I started and I have found like you that the less contact I have with family the better I feel – shockingly. The biggest problem I find is, like with the disasterous romantic relationships, I keep trying to disbelieve what is actually happening and re-enter the family and pretend – however I am usually encouraged for a few seconds or on the surface and then straight back to abuse – which I see more of and quicker the further I get distance from them.
Do not make the mistake in thinking that you can change and educate THEM – look after yourself – change and educate yourself – accept your family were as big a fantasy in your head, as your fantasy men have been and find people who are real. This is really hard I know but it is much harder not doing it believe me and it will happen over time because now you have an advantage – you are aware and your eyes are open. Keep them open or the abuse will continue and get worse.
Last thing most of the posts on here from Natalie also have applications for most relationships – start noting and using them – not only in your romantic relationships but in your family relationships also – you’ll be amazed how they will work for you. I know they seem harsh but how else do you set a boundary and mean it after hundreds of years not doing so. Good luck. Love and sunshine to you.
“It can be frustrating because we work on ourselves and then we think that we’re good to go and then when those old feelings creep in and we’re paralysed with the stress of it all, it feels as if we’ll never be free. We only truly know where we need to do further work when we’re put into situations that typically activate us and then we respond differently. That’s what each relationship presents us with – an opportunity to know and grow ourselves better. Progress not perfection. ”
This was so important for me to read! I’ve been reading this site like a bible for years, so I pride myself on learning these lessons. However, recently I felt like maybe I haven’t changed as much as I thought because I was so swept up in something new that even though I expressed some concern on the date, I also hoped it would work out. Then after I was being ignored I realized instead of just expressing concern I probably should have just instantly left. Maybe sometimes we can’t expect make those kind of decisions right in the moment or maybe I simply made a mistake. Either way, it is reassuring to know that the progress is what’s important.
I’m hoping to find a new love relationship where it is 100:100. My recent bad relationship with the narcissist harem master was not even 100:25. I was in his royal harem, meaning that I loved and had sex only with him -while he had multiple partners. He also had a soft harem, I didn’t even know harem had these two basic categories until last week when I Googled them.
So, with my new relationship skills and improved personal boundaries, I’m ready to find a good relationship! Next challenge is getting out to meet single men. Maybe at my gym or walking at nearby beach..might venture out and find a new jazz bar or two.
Lately I wonder if harem master is Rasputin ‘ s reincarnation? and it was my strange worldly fate to encounter him and my lesson learned.
Well they say we repeat our mistakes over and over again..
Serene…it is really easy to say ‘grow a backbone’ but where do I even begin when these thoughts that I have are so ingrained that I don’t even know where to begin to get rid of them!! I think I had a fairly strong backbone when I left my husband of 11 years and took me and my 2 daughters 200 miles away and then brought them up on my own but when you are told that you are worthless enough times by the person that means everything to you, you can’t help but believe him. I am 45 years old and still seem to gravitate towards these type of men hoping that one of them, one day will say ‘I love you’. I tell my girls to have respect for themselves and to not let any man disrespect them. I know what’s right and wrong and I am aware of how I should behave but haven’t so far been able to get to this stage myself! I am looking for validation from my dad, my ex husband and every other narcissistic asshole out there! At least I have began to be aware of it now so that is a start and I have decided to spend some time alone and also I am on a waiting list for some counselling for domestically abused women. It really helps to write things down here and thank you all especially Ariel and Better than ever for your supportive words. It may seem weak to others how women like me behave but most of the time I have reacted to these type of men almost subconsciously thinking it was normal and that I had just been unlucky!! It was only after realising that I was the common denominator in most of these relationships that I have had to admit to myself that I have issues! But funnily enough the last EU man that I gave the time of day to had more issues than me!! A friend of my’n told me yesterday that my behaviour was verging on bunny boiler behaviour! I had no idea! This has made me so determined to never ever contact him again! i want so much to have a healthy relationship and I met someone last year who adored me, I ended it and the only reason I could give him was that he was too nice!
yes, it is very hard to look at our upbringing and find it still affects us. When I was in my 20’s, I decided not to blame my parents any more, but the subconscious patterning from growing up was still there. So, my last three relationships have been horrible for me. Yes, accepting crumbs when I should never have agreed at all!
Now we know. I have been NC for almost 6 months, and I feel free. Not to say I do not ruminate over the ridiculous things I put up with and how badly it affected me, I do, but now I have some distance I can see where I went wrong.
We can change if we know what is wrong! There can be no cure without a diagnosis, and now we are aware. So be grateful for this new found awareness and keep moving on with your newfound freedom.
Sian. My response to you follows above, after your initial post.
@ Sian
Have you read any of the work by Lundy Bancroft? She has some great books about abuse. The part that it didn’t really cover well for me that I think BR does well is our behaviors and mindsets that enable us to get into these situations. The more I read about boundaries and self-esteem, the more it sank in and started to change my behavior. I still have a long way to go myself but I have noticed a positive impact. We need to work on challenging our old habits and behavior. Another good read for me was a book called Temptations of a Single Girl. It discusses a lot about values and behaviors but in a different format than Natalie.
Sian, seeking validation from a narcissist is like trying to cook a steak using a match. Ain’t gonna happen, and you’re gonna get burned. Having been abused by a narcissist is a horrible thing (I grew up with it, and had a few narc relationships) and your confusion does not imply you don’t have a backbone. It may indicate your not recognizing narc red flags, and staying as far away from these toxic monsters as possible. It takes time to do that. So it’s their issue that they’re A$$holes, and your issue (and responsibility) to learn about narcs and how horrible they are, esp. for those of us, like myself, who have codep tendencies. Because of that, we have erroneously grown up thinking narc behavior is normal, when it’s anything but. Keep up the good work!
@simple pleasures
I agree with you. I’d no idea women did this so willingly. NML had written quite a bit about this , a few years ago.
Why are you on the site and do you not find it helpful?
I’ve told my story before: casual sex with a visiting colleague who hit on me a few times. Turned out after we had had sex, he was married. He was leaving the country: so I said to him it would be over once he left (1 mth later)
But he insisted he wanted to stay in touch. So it continued. I visited him, him me. We wld have phone sex, chat, email. I knew he’d not leave his wife. But I started to get sucked in. The U-turn:- after several months he was coming back to my office for another pfoject. We had plans, but I intended to end it. But before I cld the day before he arrived he texted me to say ANOTHER other woman (who i later found out my colleagues knew and referred to as his girlfriend as shed visit him during a long term affair with before and who had a boyfriend!!!) was flying from several countries away to visit him. She works in my organisation. He’d lied about her, saying he’d be calling his wife or children when it was her,
The AC behaviour was the fact he then commended himself for his honesty!! Then took me out for my birthday and kept talking to me about her. the next day when he had slept w me he texted her. asked me to leave the house so he cld call her.
Humiliation.
I found it hard to get angry/ state boundaries/ go NC. Nat identifies great stuff in her older posts on MM. I was upset because I had planned it to end but I felt helpless. I still can’t believe someone cld be THAT awful to me.
i think many women know MMs are dangerous but think they can do it but wonder WHY. That’s the help we need.
I chose to walk away from MM. I cld feel I was getting involved, hurt and still had to be “nice” and easy going.
I’ve learnt a LOT in this site and why I got involved- but how do I tackle the same feelings when it’s my mother who has the AC behaviour (I feel awful just writing that).
“how do I tackle the same feelings when it’s my mother who has the AC behaviour (I feel awful just writing that)”:
Why? Why do you FEEL AWFUL JUST WRITING THAT? If your Mother or Lover or Whomever behaves like an AC do you have to feel ashamed of it? responsible for it? guilty for it?
Tackle this ‘why’ and you’ll find some much needed insight. V.
Right, V. My mother was a horrible abuser, and I tried for decades to “get” her to love me (as if!), and finally dumped her as an influence in my life. She was dead by then, but she’d still had an influence. I finally said “Enough” and pulled the plug on her.
ICBIFT, I found this site and have continued to read the postings because I was deeply in love with someone from age 22-28, who I finally ended it with because, I know now, he was emotionally unavailable. But I ran into him decades later at a club I joined and saw him for 6 months with the old feelings stirred up. I see him once a week at the club in a limited contact capacity.I have scrutinized myself as to why I would relinquish my boundaries and get emotionally embroiled again after all the years. He was the only man who ever treated me less than.I
have found this site helpful in my self exploration after all the effort I put into trying to understand him, I realize we are really trying to understand ourselves.
But in the meantime I read the heart break of the younger generation, and try to understand what is going on in the world. I wonder why men mostly are treating women as they do. Is it easy availability for sex? Media putting forth how people behave/ The lack of parental, religious and traditional institutions teachings morals, ethics and beha
viour? Is it that women can now get an education/ career/ raise children without a partner so they don’t need a marriage partner? And the men can have many sexual partners without a need to marry with a life goal in sight?
It seems couples more and more are not willing to commit through sickness and health until death they do part. It seems it’s become a very selfish, self gratifying culture without regard for the long term consequences of behaviours. I also think we have generations of children now growing up without parental role models, i.e. men loving and standing by a wife into old age. Boys are turning into men who never see or know their fathers, they do not have a role model for a committed married relationship because they’ve never seen it. I try to understand the big societal picture, the sea change of what is going on in modern society.
Icbift
I realized alot of my issues with unavailble men had alot to do with a very critical mother. I also realized critical men somewhat made me comfortable for this same reason! Hoe crazy it took so many many years to see for myself. For me personally i actually put the relationship ball back in my moms court do to continued poor and critical treatment and guess what…i never heard from her again save for twice in nearly 10 years and both times only fishing for the me who would try to please her and make everything better (even when i hadnt done anything!). I know she just wants some attention. I also learned over many many years and troubling experiences she’ll turn on me w cruelty and try to destroy much. Very crazy but her and my last ex were very much alike! I recognize it now. Oddly enough the 2nd time i heard from her over the years was about a month ago. She wrote a letter to say she never had empathy for me and was never there for me emotionally. I took it for what it was, wanting attention and kept it moving. Sorry is as sorry does. I tried all my life to carry that relationship and thats exactly what i did until i needed something mutual and then it was over! Anyways though reading it gave me many feeling i struggled with my ex and then i made the connection. A week later ex is showing up again. Connection reaffirmed. Two peas in a pod. If i cant be treated with respect and care as others expect from me fine but im not giving my time, energy, effort, etc. either. For me that is with everyone. My childhood especially with my mother set me up to fail. Its better though. Hope this helps some.
So glad I found this site.
I too was TOW to an EUM up until 2 weeks ago. I grew tired of the crumbs and told him I wanted the whole loaf, and now. He couldn’t provide it. I bailed.
He is in a really effed up situation, and is too scared to change it. I on the other hand, did change my situation and left an unhappy relationship weeks after I met my EUM. But I didn leave to be with him. I left not to be with my ex fiancé. I will never regret leaving that relationship.
I do miss my EUM. I cried for two days. Now I feel regret that it didn’t work out, and sorrow. But I am also realizing that even if he were to become fully available to me, I wouldn’t want him. I could never trust him and I am too smart to delude myself into thinking that he wouldn’t cheat on me, if he cheated with me.
I read most of the stories on this site over the last 2 weeks, and it seems to me that we, who either willingly or unknowingly entered relationships with unavailable (emotionally and otherwise) men and chose to stay for as long as we did, share at least one common issue, stemming from our childhoods. We were underloved by emotionally unavailable parent(s).
Now it’s almost as if we subconsciously try to recreate the same relationship dynamic we had with the EU parent(s) with EUMs/MMS but this time hoping for a positive outcome (he leaves his wife for you) which makes you “worthy and love able”. Pretty sad, huh?
Life is too short to be unhappy. I see so many people waste their lives away as if they are writing a rough draft and they can re-write it. Sometimes I want to scream in their faces (definitely wanted to scream to EUM) – what are you doing?? This is your life, your one and only chance and shot at it, why are you wasting it in unhappy situations, dead end jobs, toxic relationships??
But… You can’t save anyone. You can only take care of yourself. That’s why I am choosing me and my dignity and happiness. I am worth it.
Sorry for such a random post, I am all over the place.
(Apologies for any mistakes, English isn’t my first language)
I went through something similar. I actually told him I am frustrated because I’m getting a slice and want the loaf. He told me he’s never given a loaf before and that I knew he had walls. I took that as we aren’t on the same page as to what we want so I felt at peace. Then last night I went out and he got angry saying he was worried and couldn’t sleep and that I need to decide if I want the loaf. I get why he was angry (he has safety triggers and I was home a little later than I thought I would be).
The thing is, it’s not my decision. It’s my decision as to whether I want to continue on with EUM but it’s his decision if he wanted to challenge the mindsets and habits he’s held most of his life. I can’t make him give a loaf to me or anyone. That’s his choice. And as long as he’s not available to give a loaf, then it’s not going to work for me. I will always be hungry for more.
to HappyAgain. Read your post and it rings so true for me. AS a child had an abusive father (used to lock us in the cellar at night, (brother and sister)but, separate cellars with no light, when I was only about 6 years old for being “naughty”. Used to think back then in the dark “why is he not coming to get me out”, “you deserve this”, what is a child to think, no rationale at that age, except to think “I need YOU, my father to come and get me out and save me”, why is my mother not doing anything.” “I will be a good girl, I will accept what you have done to me because you told me I was naughty”. So, hence, ended up in relationships with men who were narcissists and I just wanted to please them (validation). Father has since passed away, but mother is still alive and is critical of me and will say nasty comments. Have tried to be strong most of my life and be a good wife and mother of 2 beautiful children who are now grown up and independent. Have given and given. Perhaps given to them and my relationships what I never had – Am divorced now, just find it hard (but am getting there) to give to myself. Give myself validation.
KathyQ
I understand what you say. In the process of trying to understand why something is happening when we’re young, if we cant we learn to blame ourselves for everything and look to others to validate we are ok. I very much ended up in similar relationships with people for those same reasons. After a lifetime of it i finally reached my lowest point ever w my last ex. It wasnt him alone but a lifetime of it and that was the straw. I knew i cant keep living like this i was emotionally broken. Fortunately i found this website from a woman honest about her own experiences and short comings w hope i could work through my baggage. Ive read so many things (multiple times even). I took the self esteem course because i also realized i really didnt know how to love myself, comfort or validate myself. I refer back to those documents too. I read other books and started praticing talking to myself like i would talk to someone else. Telling myself it will be ok, it will get better, you are learning, everyone makes mistakes, i like you, etc.. These are not ways i would talk to myself in the past. It takes effort and yes it is a process. I am so much farther than i was a couple years ago. Yes there are bumps, yes i make mistakes but recovery time is less and i am learning and redirect negative mindsets faster. I know you can do it too. We just have to keep trying and hang in there AND be compassionate to ourselves. That is VERY important. Ive realized i became used to suffering and sometimes that came in the form of my own mind being very critical of me when there werent people doing it. Be encouraged! 🙂
Serene- sorry, with so many wise people on this site I got confused! It was @elgie R who had a narc mother. Apologies for the confusion.
V., simple pleasures, happy again:
THANK YOU.
Once again I think “ICBIFT!” For all your amazing inputs.
@ICBIFT! About the distance/being close business (“I keep my distance so they don’t hurt me. I don’t want to be close”): this is not an on/off thing. Distance is distance, you can moderate/regulate it according to who’s in front of you and how he/she’s acting. If you visualise emotional distance as actual physical distance it becomes very clear: if a person (symbolically) hits you with fists while talking to you, just step back enough so that they can’t reach you with their arms. If they pursue you, you run or fight according to the situation. But I can assure you that simply stepping back/detaching a little resolves most everyday situations.
Like any skill, this needs to be honed, but after a while you’ll be able to place people farther or closer to your heart with some solid trust in your own judgement. That is exactly why there exist such terms as acquaintance, colleague, friend, close friend, family member/relative, close family member. Simply a trial and error process to sort them out. V.
I was very sad to read how your mother treats you. Not that I had it better or it’s such an extraordinary story of abuse, but simply because it’s always sad to read such things.
I would say this about your mom. You keep going back to her, yes? You are not going back to get more hurt, but to try to resolve things. So do it. Next time she belittles you, you tell her: please stop saying this, it hurts, you’re hurting me mother. And explain further if she doesn’t understand. And the second time she calls, you do the same. And the third too, and the fourth too. Do this for every little hurtful thing that she says to you. Remember that she is used to treating you badly, so it will take some time for her to register the fact that she can’t do that anymore because you are not allowing it anymore. She has to break a habit of decades too.
Now the outcome of this can be anything: either she adapts, and you find that you can have a certain kind of communication with her, at a safe distance, or she stops looking for you at all (see Veracity’s story above), or she becomes very aggressive, and you have to go NC, or anything in between.
Now 2 important things to keep in mind if you choose this route:
1) the outcome of your relationship is not decided by one single interaction, but it will be the sum of them over a span of months if not years. So don’t put too much pressure on one single communication and take your time to digest the step-by-step results;
2) the purpose of this is Not to change your mother – that would be great but there is no guarantee. The point of it is that you learn to stand up for yourself, know yourself better through understanding the dynamics of your family, and test your newly found strength and building confidence in other areas too, like workplace or a relationship with a man. It can also happen that you quickly reach a point of exhaustion in trying to change her, and that case it’s still good because you will have lost the drive to symbolically change your mother or father in the struggle with an EU/AC.
Best, V.
ICBIFT, Oh good. I wondered how my name came up. LOL!
This post is great food for thought and great timing for me. I’m feeling good about my own involvement and being present in reality so far while getting to know and dating a new guy. There are no guarantees in any of this, but my peace of mind is still intact. I know if things start sliding to shit, I’m happy enough to be single again and don’t feel the need to force things or settle for something that just isn’t.
Serene my apologies also I keep missing bits on here for some reason. It’s all fine don’t worry you weren’t too harsh it’s just that I honestly don’t realise how desperately I behave half the time!! And Suki thank you so much for your words too, I totally get what you’re saying and I know what I need to do. I come away from these destructive relationships thinking ‘right that’s definitely it! I’m never allowing a man to make me feel like that again’ but of course I do! I actually feel ashamed of myself. The last time I managed to not contact him for 2 weeks after he told me he wasn’t interested. He text me after the 2 weeks of NC and said ‘do you want to come over tonight?’ I replied ‘I thought you weren’t interseted’ and he said ‘well the sex is always good’ I’m so ashamed to say I went to his that night. I came away the next morning feeling like crap and I kept going back for more and more. The last straw was when last week he told me he fancied my friend!! I just thought for gods sake woman how much more humiliation and disrespect can you take??!!! He knew he had me, he could pick me up and throw me away whenever he felt like it, all the time justifying himself by saying ‘I’m not into relationships’ he was so charming to everyone though including me, until he’d caught me in his web then the real him was revealed!! Blaming women for everything that had gone wrong in his life, how we’re all fake, liars and cheats! He goes on dating websites picks up women and he uses his job to his advantage (fireman) sees them a few times until he’s got them into bed and dumps them! What if I meet someone else like this!! How will I know? Like I said he was so charming and so interested in me!! I’m so scared of making the same mistakes over and over! Ive been an emotional wreck over last few days, just can’t stop crying…. I feel as though a lot of pain that I’ve kept suppressed for years is coming out. Maybe it’s the beginning of me coming to terms with stuff from the past. I’m hoping so anyway. Maybe things have to get a bit worse before they can get better.
“Well, the sex is always good.” That’s an insult. Apparently, you didn’t take it as such because you went over there after he had the nerve to say that to you. But, Sian, you’re not the only woman who has allowed herself to be insulted and still sought the affection. Sex can be extremely powerful until you reach your lowest point, your “enough” moment, and begin working your way out of the quagmire. I’m shocked today when I think back on how I, too, allowed myself to be insulted, and didn’t take action until much later. When you start to really see YOU and how you’re behaving in these ugly, ungratifying rships you’ve made a start. At least you have finally reached that point and now you must move forward, not backward. Sian, we’ve all been through it in some form or another, be it with parents, siblings, a friend, AC’s, EU people etc. Recognizing what is really happening instead of continuing to exist in a dream world is more than half the battle. Good luck, my dear.
Sian, I agree that his comments are insulting. What I’m wondering is — why the shame and guilt? You keep doing these things. And then you keep feeling the shame. And you KNOW or so you say that this guy is no good and that you deserve better etc. But you are unable to act.
Okay fine. SO my question is: why the shame?
We know a fair proportion of the population are players. You were NC with him already so its not like you were so in love with him either. You were both in it for a very casual relationship – he was open about it, you werent. He was insulting about it, you werent. BUT there were no expectations that were made clear. So again, I’m not convinced that we can hold them so responsible when we are not holding ourselves responsible. What they are doing is TOTALLY unacceptable. Not the casual sex but the casual treatment of you. But you were aware of this. So now whose responsibility is it?
He’s honest; ‘i’m a total d-bag, deal with it, sorry, shrugs’. If you were honest you’d say; ‘I’ll play along but all the time I’ll be somewhat in love, somewhat in disgust with myself, I’ll do NC, then come back, and once in a while I’ll call you ten times in one night in a total rant’. If we were more honest I wonder if it would nip these relationships in the bud. Wheres the consequences? You got yours. What did he get? Start being more honest with yourself and with others. Accept yourself. Be open, be expressive.
To me it seems like you are compounding your casual treatment of yourself with further guilt and shame. Let that go. What use is it? Somehow that guilt is also keeping you trapped in the behavior. That guilt is part of your payoff, you need that guilt in some way otherwise you’d either stop doing what you are doing or stop feeling the guilt.
I would suggest; for all your feelings, write 5 other possible interpretations. You have a very strong story you are telling yourself; I can’t help it! i’m ashamed! I know but I do it anyway! disgust with myself! fear of the future! what if this happens again!
Its not happening TO YOU. You are doing it. You ARE choosing.
Write five ways to say no to someone that asks you to come over after NC because ‘hey the sex is always good’.
WRite five ways to say no to someone that asks you to coffee/dinner/movie and you KNOW you shouldn’t (because you have trouble converting thoughts into actions and words so its time to start rehearsing. I rehearsed this one because I was afraid of this one w EUM).
Here I provide you five options to your feelings of shame about going to this guy’s house; I’m bored so I’m doing it, I want this so I’m doing it, I take responsibility so I am doing it, I know this is wrong but I am doing it anyway no shame. Eventually you’ll get why you do what you do. Because you will accept your responsibility for the choices you’re making, the choices that make you unhappy. To stop doing what makes us unhappy is surprisingly harder than we think.
[I’m of course not condoning you doing anything that puts your health at risk, or is otherwise physically risky. But if you are going to have casual relationships anyway, why make it worse by beating yourself up? Something tells me you want it or need it both ways. You want to have this guy and guys like him, and you want to feel bad afterward. One of those needs to change. Do whatever is easiest first. ANy single change you make empowers you for further changes.]
Stay strong. We’ve always been capable of great things.
Serene, so true, and horrible films and books like “50 Shades” do not help. I’m certainly not a prude, but that book/movie glorifies shaming women through sexual power seem acceptable. And it is not.
I read the book, not because it was my choice of “literature” but because a friend recommended it and I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. Remember back when if you hadn’t read it you must be from another planet? What trash and poor writing to boot. When I heard the movie was coming out, I was really disgusted.
This man, whom I once thought of as a romantic hero, a brave White Knight – or the Dark Knight as he said. He’s not a hero: he’s a man with serious, deep emotional flaws, and he’s dragging me into the dark.
– E.L. James. Fifty shades of grey.
Sums it up I would say.
Sian
You need to find some boundaries that you can stick to and make part of your life. That line where you won’t go past for any reason and you won’t let anyone else go past either.
You really need to make a stand somewhere, just one big boundary to start with and the rest will follow.
I can’t speak for you or anyone else on here but I can tell you that the healing will start with you. Find a way to interrupt this negative downward spiralling pattern you have with men, find a way to say ‘hell no’ to some of your behaviour, ie. sleeping with guys that insult and degrade you afterwards.
As Serene says, we have all been there in one way or another and we all have to find our own way out. I did and plenty of other women have too, it is possible to break out of our own destructive patterns and to stop blaming everyone else now we are adults and can think for ourselves.
Good luck my dear, all it takes is that first step.
It’s interesting this connection between narc mothers/parents and attraction to narc men. I too grew up with a very narc (but insecure) mother and learned from a young age to walk on egg shells and make sure she was happy, never criticize, rarely stand up for myself and really just cater to what she needed so that we could all live happily. I don’t mean to mother-blame, because my dad has own issues and we are responsible for ourselves, but some of this stuff is coming to light as I stay NC. And I do think that while this is not the root cause of why I am attracted to EUM (that is what it is) but why I put up with crappy behaviour once the EU quality raised its head. I am now no contact for 1.5 weeks and I truly do feel BetterThan Ever. But it’s also because this isn’t the first time I’ve gone through this cycle. For anyone struggling with their self esteem and losing site of themselves in their passion for an EUM, keep aiming for NC.. No matter how many times it takes you to get there!
For those struggling with their Marc family members, while it is impossible to go NC completely for a lot of us, I really truly started to grow as a person and be happier and healthier both emotionally and spiritually when I distanced myself from my mother. It was a hard process (and one she was angry about) but it was worth it. Its been a few years since that process started, and I still feel she is angry about it (silent treatment sometimes, passive aggressiveness, etc), but in many ways our relationship has grown. And regardless, I needed the distance to become a happier and more authentic person.
I am continuing I work on myself and with no contact things are getting better (though up and down). I spent some time today writing out a list of all the reasons why the EUM/MM I was entangled with wasn’t good for me. It is still hard but getting easier slowly. Good luck to those struggling with this.
Also, for those who have said that the women who come on her are sad OW trying to steal the MM, I really don’t think that is the case. For a lot of us who find ourselves in “the wrong relationship”, yes there is an element of there being something wrong with us. But there are also lots of reasons and scenarios how people get into situations that ultimately don’t serve them. For a lot of people, it’s because they are not aware of this at the beginning. For myself, I truly thought the MM I was involved with loved me. I wasn’t lonely or desperate, but in another long term, stable relationship. He chased me and talked about wanting to be together, encouraged me to break up with my partner and really led me to believe he wanted to be with me until it became real. Then there was backtracking and back and forth until I went crazy! This is only one example of how women end up in these scenarios. And yes, I do hunk in hindsight there are many things I could have and should have done differently, but I honk this site is about supporting each other and ourselves as we get out of these (sometimes extremely) harmful situations. To everyone coming here and seeking and giving support, it is such a god send.
Allison- Are you the same Allison who has been giving advice here for a year or two? If so, how did you end up with this guy?? I’m so very sorry you’re hurting! As you said, you can suck it and see if he will now give you a loaf but I doubt it. He may have meant it in the heat of the moment but he needs much therapy to carry it through, it seems. Is he willing to go to therapy and do the work?
Rosie –
No… long time lurker but only started posting recently. I don’t recall anyone using this name so I used it.
I agree even if he wants to offer the loaf, it’s not going to be that way for some time so it’s better for me to move on for now. I thought about both paths. I feel more at peace with moving on mentally and emotionally. I felt anxious thinking about the path of waiting on him to do the work. If we were married and I saw the effort I would wait but that isn’t the case here.
In fact I went out the other day and he was so triggered about the idea of caring for me (the idea that I was safe and nothing happened to me) he was going nuts and couldn’t sleep. He spent all yesterday ignoring me (either being angry or sleeping) so we couldn’t even have a conversation about anything or conclude our previous discussion about where to go that got cut short by an outside circumstance.
The only issue in the short term is he lives with me and I don’t feel right just kicking him out right away. At the same time, even having this sort of discussion he’s acting like nothing happened. So I need to figure out to to assert some NC boundaries here and then escalate.
Hi Rosie. How are you? It’s “formerly Tinkerbell” in case you didn’t notice from recent posts. I have to laugh because I was having the same question. Since I’m on here all the time I was able to figure it out for myself. Remember the other Allison’s posts were always characterized by her putting a question to the last commenter? Plus, she never said a whole lot and did not get personal abo0ut herself or to others. Hope you’re doing well. Serene.
This site is very timely as I have recently discovered that I have been surrounded with people who wanted to make their issues my issues. Starting with my my mother. And all of this started from a very young age even though age don’t matter, a mother should never try to make her daughter ‘pay’ for the fact that she decided to get married and have kids and she is for some reason never happy. I too recently discovered that I was raised by a narc mother, passive aggressive father and the whole shit. I have said several times through the years that it seems that she is for one reason or another unhappy with her family. Her family just cant get it right and act how she wants them to so that is why she is mad every other day. That shit got old as I grew older. I realized it in face isn’t her family (husband and children) but the fact that she is a malcontent, unstable sadistic, unhappy with her self biyach. True story. And I decided I was done carrying her bags. I was the family scapegoat and punching bag and that mess carried over into school (teasing and bullying). It just seemed like during my formative years, I had a sign on my forehead that said dump here. I went into the world during my young adulthood wounded and I took up with people who expected me to own their shit…just like my parents did. The last last straw came a few years ago when I have to stop going to a tavern that I really liked because the married owner started being disrespectful/abusive towards me because I wouldn’t sleep with him…….no scratch that. He was being disrespectful and abusive towards me because he is/was a disrespectful and abusive narc and misogynist. I don’t think this man delineated that I was coming to his bar because I liked his bar, not because of him per se. He would complain to me about his wife with the usual she is ‘crazy, bipolar, spoiled hillbilly bitch’ and blah blah blah. Usually patrons at bars complain to the bartender, not this one. I and others had to sit and listen to him complain, whether we wanted to hear it or not. I remember I would be just sitting quiet within my own thoughts just enjoying the moment (I went on Monday’s because it was a slow day there) and he would just start unloading. I couldn’t even be left to my own thoughts. The married man’s scheme is old hat. I would just observe how he would complain about his wife, dump that on me or other patrons, get to vent and get relief, at the end of the night jump in his pick up truck and drive right back to that such and such wife whom he disturbed our whole nights complaining about. One time I saw him gearing up to start complaining about his wife was not a ‘nice person’ and I just told him ‘well you married her!” And he said ‘ I know, I know’ and I was wanted to tell him ‘well shut the eff up then!” This man was the verbal version of explosive diarrhea! If I know one thing, I know that adults tend to do what they want to do and not do what they really don’t want to do. And we will find a way to get away from something that we no longer want. I had no intentions on going to bed with that man, but I also wasn’t didn’t come to his establishment to listen to him or anyone else bitch about a situation that they chose and they continue to choose. To land the plane here, after seeing that I wasn’t as daft as he thought I was. I wasn’t gonna sit and let him disturb my peace by bitching about that wife…then going home to her (like he had for the past 11 years) now was I going to sleep with him, he started being real jerky and essentially letting me know that he wanted me out of his bar.
I tell this story not to rant about married ac’s per se but about my TOTAL LAST STRAW dealing with grown (especially older than me) mo fo’s who expect me to own their shit! People who its bad enough they don’t take responsibility and ownership for what they have created, chose, and continue to choose, but are looking for me to do it and then punishing me for not owning their stuff correctly….SIIICK! This incident tipped me over the edge as this was not a situation where I met and was dealing with this man with romantic intent. I just happen to walk into a bar that is owned by a serial cheater, sadist, misogynist, and narc. I live in a smaller town and I had found the perfect little spot for me going to this mans bar on Monday’s. I was looking for a place to unwind and just be. I chose to come on a Monday as to avoid the typical guys looking to pick up on women and I saw soon enough it wasn’t the fellow patrons that were a problem, It was the owner! This man wanted me to own that fact that he was not happy in his marriage (if he was telling the truth about that). I COULDN’T EVEN SIT IN A DARN NEAR EMPTY BAR ON A MONDAY NIGHT IN PEACE BECAUSE OF SOMEBODY ELSES ISSUES!!! Yet again, its somebody else’s stuff that is causing me trouble. And that did it for me. Everything came to a head for me emotionally and I have to ‘unpack’ in the spirit of baggage reclaim. I was able to trace all of this back to my unstable mother. Trying to pacify her so she wont start ‘trippin’. But of course that never worked. In my young adulthood I essentially repeated the mother daughter dynamic over and over and over again. The common theme is me and people who lack personal accountability and ownership.
I discovered that I ‘owned’ other peoples stuff, blame absorbed, and all of that as a means of CONTROL in the instability and nonsense I had to endure with these people..starting with my mother. I have to be calm cool and level headed in the midst of nonsense as if i wasn’t, my family would be one huge cluster fuck. I thought if I ‘own’ their behavior, then I can control it. If I do this or change that, then they would stop abusing me… again never worked. Time, experience, and this site solidified that these are just bad apples that need to be tossed out. It has nothing to do with me outside of I kept giving these types ‘air time’ when I should have cut their microphone off long before so to speak. This has carried over into romantic dealings. Before I was out here wounded but a pretty well rounded woman. I was out here hooking my wagon onto guys were more lost, twisted, and just plain effed up that I could ever hope to be. Now I choose to actually believe what I am seeing. Know what is mine and leave others to theirs (this site helped me with that). I cut out all of that over empathizing and I will act like I always have something to do or somewhere to be when it comes to those that like to dump on another just long enough for them to feel relieve and energized to they can go right back into the situation that they just got done abusing somebody elses ears about. I now avoid professional victims, complainers, dumpers, poor mouthers, and 30, 40, and 50 year old damsels in distress (male and female)like bill collectors.
“I discovered that I ‘owned’ other peoples stuff, blame absorbed, and all of that as a means of CONTROL in the instability and nonsense I had to endure with these people..starting with my mother. I have to be calm cool and level headed in the midst of nonsense as if i wasn’t, my family would be one huge cluster fuck. I thought if I ‘own’ their behavior, then I can control it. If I do this or change that, then they would stop abusing me… again never worked.”
Yes! Along those same lines (control), something that just recently clicked for me was that as a child I couldn’t believe (accept) that my parents were “bad” (bad parents who did really horrible things), it wasn’t safe to believe that. I needed my parents for my very survival. I needed them to be good. So I unconsciously took on their “bad” and made them “good”. They are now on the pedestal and I am unworthy/less than/to blame/responsible. It was a way of feeling as if I had control over my survival…it was a fantasy of course.
I think also when you are told over and over again that the way someone is feeling/acting is your fault, you start to believe it. Then you carry they over into other relationships as well.
“Then you carry they over into other relationships as well.” Oops I meant carry it, over, but I guess the “they” would be considered a Freudian slip!! 🙂
You are right on the money Veracity.
Ljsrmissy
I get it. Onward and upward for us all on here trying to help ourselves and move forward. I wish you well.
Right on Happy again. A whole lot of dealing with the anger of seeing how things really are in many aspects. Seeing how many men really are. Its freeing very much so and empowering because I am no longer in fantasy land or in the blind. But its infuriating because the ‘game’ is filthy and insidious.
now was I going to sleep with him, = nor was I going to sleep with him.
HappyAgain
Thank you so much for your supportive words of wisdom. I am in one country and you in another, but it feels like you are beside me, encouraging. When you have thought all your life that no one understands, that you just wanted to be taken care of – you realise that the only person that can take care of you is yourself. Gaining the knowledge from this site and the support of people like you has been an immense learning curve and comfort for me. Thank you Nat and thank you to everyone on here for sharing your stories.
KathyQ
How less alone we feel we people are empathetic and honest about our own faults and experiences. This site is great. You are not alone. I wish the very best for you.
I really thought I had gained such balance until my last relationship. All of my insecurities poured out, I felt like a maniac. I was being controlling as well, which I don’t think was an issue before, but now that I’m older and it had been a while since I was in a relationship, I somehow gained the habit of wanting to talk to my bf every morning, he expressed in some passive way he wasnt into talking every morning. So recognizing that I did not wait for his call the next morning, he text me that afternoon. I replied happily. He usually expressed things in an “non confrontational way” I considered them passive, I wondered if my desire for lots of communication smothered him. However, wouldn’t it be the adult thing to do to just tell me how he likes to communicate? He would just reciprocate whatever I wanted and then be annoyed in the background. I’m emotionally exhausted, so much so I cant even air all my disappointment that this relationship ended in just 2 months, it seems we barely had a chance to figure eachother out, to really talk and make a go of it. Its just so disappointing.
Allison- Is he working full tine? If so, could you give him 30 days’ notice to find another place to live? It’s easy to say “kick him to the curb” but harder to do if the person has nowhere to go, especially if person’s nice, not an AC, just not able to be in a relationship.
Serene I know right?! So insulting!! But in my crazy messed up head I just perceived it as ‘he wants me’ but probably I was the only one in his ‘black book’ that was stupid enough to go running also I just think that he loves having his ego stroked! I’ve been wanting so much to contact him today. It’s been 5 days now with NC and this is the point when I usually cave in. But I haven’t contacted him because I know as soon as I send that text I’ll think ‘oh shit I shouldn’t have done that’ and I’ll be checking my phone every 5 minutes wondering if he’s text back. I need to do this and I need to feel strong enough to tell him to piss off if he texts me first. I so want to be at the stage most of you on here are but finding it so hard to get that mindset. But it helps so much to write down my thoughts, it helps me reason with myself instead of acting impulsively and doing something stupid.
Sian. Just know that when you come here to BR you have support from all of us. I read back what you said earlier. You left your husband after 11 years, taking your two daughter and raising them as a single mom. That took strength and courage. What happened to that woman? How/why did you lose your way? When did it begin? A good therapist could help you find the answers to these questions and a whole lot more. I took my 18 month old daughter and left my husband also, raising her as a single mom. I experienced various traumatic events, not all with men, but other situations. I’ve found a way to get back to being that woman I was many, many years ago. It takes work and huge self-determination, but tell yourself it is possible for you, too. Do you believe in God, or a higher power? It helps.
Sian
Read Nat’s post on ‘I’m not that woman anymore’, it’s excellent.
Pauline. Thanks. Myself and others who have “healed” can always use the reinforcement. I will definitely look for that post.
Pauline, thank you bringing up this post. I just read it and almost cried feeling the freedom and liberation and affirmation of who I have become and how much work I have done on my self in a year. Everyone, please read this post. It is pertinent to the current post and it is truly like a hymn to a female’s self-respect, identity, freedom and love for herself. The important thing to recognize though that all of the things said in the post won’t ring the bell unless one has gone through the epiphany, suffering, grieving and a lot of work. This post would have done nothing for me two years ago. Amazing words of wisdom!
Pauline and Sofia. How do I find Nat’s post? What category is it under? Thank. Serene.
Serene, if you haven’t found it already there is a little box right at the top of the web page on the right hand side that says search with a magnifying glass. Just type in ‘I’m not that woman’ and it will bring up any posts that have those words in there somewhere. There could be multiple posts but you will find the right one.
Pauline. Found it. Thanks a lot. That’s much easier than going to “list of posts”. I will have to read it later, but it looks like it is an excellent post as you say.
Hi Sofia
That post and another called ‘One shot – keep it simple’ were both catalysts that woke me up and energised me into questioning what I was doing with the controlling AC I was involved with. I was in a very bad place after 5 years of being involved with that evil man. I spent a lot of time reading Nat’s posts and all of them helped so much.
Those two posts were standout’s for me and I’m sure other people have their own special posts that have resonated and helped them onto the path of healing and becoming their own woman again.
I live by the ‘One shot – keep it simple’ these days, no matter who it is they get ‘One shot’ and then they are flicked off after any sort of shady/red flag behaviour. Perhaps that’s a bit harsh sometimes but I’m not going to bend over and take any disrespect or poor treatment from anyone. I also say something these days to let them know that their words/actions are disrespectful/rude/bad mannered etc. I do get an occasional apology but they’ve had their ‘One shot’ so I’m done. Works really well for me.
YT. How long were you two seeing each other? Did it feel one-sided to you even though seemed to be “okay”? Maybe they weren’t for him. Do you think there were other clues that he wanted to pull out? Men don’t like neediness and he may have sensed that in you. Early on, during the discovery phase you have to be very vigilant concerning what they say, do and especially THEIR REACTION to what YOU say and do. Never assume because you’re in the throws of love that you can think, “I got this”, because he may not be there yet.
Oh, excuse me. I see it was only two months. Maybe you WERE too needy for him. Next time go slower. Hold back a bit until you get to know him better. Chin up. Maybe he would not have been worthy if you, anyway. I don’t like his slinking off like that. He may have been EUM on his way to being AC. Don’t obsess. Let it go.
Also, YT when you haven’t been in a rship for a long time (as you stated) it’s a re-training period for YOU. Remember what if anything you learned this time and remember it for the next guy who comes along. And, whatever you do, don’t get it into your head that there will never be a next guy. Thoughts like that will show up in your behavior. Men seem to have extrasensory smell for that kind of baggage. Good luck, and keep active on this website. Serene.
V. Thanks for the very helpful tips. The distance part is right: not all or nothing. There can be an in between. I am just not great at it because once I give (ie go straight to mutual) and get dumped/treated badly/ignored, I feel my pride has been hurt and I retreat completely. Especially at work!
Veracity, Happy Again and others, thank you for sharing your stories.
I dont think any of us are wanting to ‘blame’ our mothers (see? I am feeling almost bad that I may sound like I am!!) but it really does help me understand.
I know my mother had a terrible relationship with HER mother. I cry when I hear the things my grandmother did to her. I know my mom suffered from depression as a result, even now, as a very senior woman, she struggles with my grandmothers death (they were NC for years before grandma died).
I was NC with my mother for a period – interestingly it was also just after first love, I was only 23, he was 25) but he did break my heart but I recovered very very easily (I was young and optimistic!)
I realised my self esteem was so directly linked to her and damaged by her eg never saying she loved me, saying I disappointed her etc. as opposed to by any man (there were only v few) who, however horrid, somehow were easier to ‘get over’.
I moved country and we hardly met for 2-3years. A lot changed after that as I discovered my own sense of ‘self’. I had my own bouts of depression too and still do need to manage it. But I started to see my mother as a human being, not my mother. And I felt bad that she suffered, and still does, from such a terrible relationship with her mother and her siblings.
She tells me she learnt to be strong – and in the world I need to be strong too, because people are always horrible, including family.
I don’t know why all of this seems so MUCH harder almost 20 years on though. It’s like despite getting older I am still the terrified 4 yr old/8 yr old/12yr old/21 yr old who is desperate for a confidence boost be it from mother, from the relationship with the MM, from work and my bosses.
I recognise and understand it better, but its still there.
There’s a book I’m going to get by Dr. Dina McMillan called “But he says he loves me …”
Many men use psychological manipulation on women to get what they want and this manipulation follows a set pattern right from the start of a relationship. It was quite chilling to hear how much research these men put into learning how to manipulate women.
I heard her speak at a Family Violence forum last night. Chilling stuff!
Serene- I hope you find this post. I like your new name! 🙂 It’s good to read your posts again. You seem to know how to be frank and compassionate at the same time.
I’ve had a setback that I’m uncomfortable mentioning at this time. It’s nothing to do with dating or relationships but I’m back in therapy.
You sound strong. Yes, your new name suits you. 🙂
Rosie. Thank you so much for responding. As far as my new name is concerned, I wanted it to reflect my current my current state of mind. I’m not all the way into a serene state but who is? Is something I aspire to and I’m almost there. I just could not tolerate the name Tinkerbell another minute. At that time I felt like a “small” in every way, Disney character. I was not dealing with reality at all when I first came to BR.
Sorry to learn things are not all that great for you, right now. I remember that you used to talk about your living situation and job not being secure. Has that improved? As you know we go through these cycles. Solve one problem then here comes another. But developing your self esteem, patience and faith in yourself and/or a higher power will help you reach your goals.
This is a timely one for me. I’m currently wrestling with some issues with my daughter. I haven’t been very good about holding her accountable for her behavior for fear of her reactions. I have been changing that.
I fully recognize I have a ton of responsibility in this and this is not a woe is me, my child is taking advantage of me or whatever. I’m simply trying to sort it out…what has happened, has happened and I’m working to figure out what is the best way to proceed now.
I also want to preface this by saying my daughter can be loving, giving, patient and kind.
I didn’t set healthy boundaries with her when she was younger and she learned that she can get her way by bullying and manipulating me. I also believe she sometimes punishes me for things I did not allow her to do as a teenager. She has told me that she really resented the boundaries I did set (curfews, limits on driving in the car with kids you just had their driving permits, stuff like that). I worked very hard to set reasonable limits on her in that regard. I checked in with therapists to make sure I wasn’t swinging too far toward strict or lenient.
She said I made it hard for her to make friends because she was so limited in what she could do. She told me a couple of months that I “wrecked her high school years” and she was angry about that for a long time. It occurred to me that she was guilting me and punishing for being a parent and setting reasonable limits.
Then she told me something that broke my heart. When after my mom had just passed away and I had to have a major surgery, she “disappeared”. Se didn’t come around to help me or comfort me. I let her know I needed help (Which at the time was hard for me..I was the caretaker and not comfortable being taken care of). When my father and sister died shortly thereafter, she still kept her distance. She would make appearances, but it was clear she wasn’t there for me.
She told me that what she was thinking at that time, the reason she didn’t help me, she was thinking – screw you!
It was the possibly the most painful thing anyone has ever said to me. It confirmed what I thought she had felt deep down. It explained her behavior. She so resented me for what had transpired in high school (she is in her mid twenties) that that was her attitude. Screw you.
She said she feels really guilty about it.
What prompted me writing this is that after we had conversation and were in agreement that while she is traveling alone for the next few months over many other countries that keeping an updated itinerary and checking in (simple “I’m in XXXXX” – she has an iphone) when arriving in a new place was important for safety and my peace of mind.
She was following the plan. Updating the itinerary and checking in. We had many wonderful email exchanges about her adventures and what was happening in my world. Then she “forgot to check in” and apologized for making me worry. She has stopped updating the itinerary. I often have no idea what country she is in and more importantly if she is safe. She says she sorry to make me worry and then she waits 10 days to check in. It feels cruel and intentional.
I get that she’s an adult and if she doesn’t want to keep with the plan and check in, that’s her prerogative. If she doesn’t want to continue doing it, then just tell me! I also get that my worrying isn’t getting me anywhere, and I’m getting a handle on that.
My issues is this: Is she still punishing me? Is this yet another punishment? I have had a very hard time facing these thoughts/beliefs about my child. It feels so disloyal. As I type this I recognize that I am not the one being disloyal.
This is so hard.
It seems when I get happy and powerful she withdraws or finds a way to throw me off balance.
She just sent another very late check in apologizing for making me worry – I hadn’t said anything to her about worrying since the first time I addressed my concerns with her after the first time she did it. I’m trying now to figure out how to respond to her.
I feel hurt, angry, and confused.
If she is getting something out of making me worry – well, that’s twisted.
If she’s just being irresponsible, that’s something entirely different.
Veracity
being the mother of a daughter as well I know exactly how you feel. You don’t say how old she is now but I’m guessing she is over 18 or whatever the legal age is where you are.
She is still young enough to perceive in her own mind that you were an awful restrictive mother when her peers had much more freedom to do what they wanted but can’t see where you were trying to protect her from harm. It goes with the age group unfortunately and they can be very nasty when they aren’t getting their own way, but they do eventually grow up and out of this sort of behaviour and mindset. It takes more maturity than she has right now.
The only thing I can say to you is LET GO. She will never grow up if you are constantly treating her like a small child who has to call home when you say so. I know this is probably hard to hear but she is of a legal age and wants to test her (slightly more adult) wings. Trust her to do the right thing by herself and if any of your guidance while she was much younger has sunk in she will be fine. She will make mistakes and that is part of the normal learning curve as we grow up and she will learn by her mistakes like we all do.
She is having a great overseas trip (with a friend or friends?) and learning how the rest of the world lives and operates and this will be very enlightening after being used to her own home and environment.
Don’t worry if she doesn’t contact you every day, if anything happens you will find out very quickly so stop imagining it’s all bad. She’s having a good time and doesn’t want to check in with Mum every five minutes just because you want her to. She’s expressing her independence so let her, and instead of laying a guilt trip on her for not calling/texting you, just tell her to have a wonderful time and you will catch up when she gets home.
I find it very hard to keep my mouth shut sometimes with my daughter (yes I’m full of unwanted advice at times) but she is a grown woman with her own husband and baby now and has her own life, basically none of my business unless she wants me to know anything. I still think of her as my little baby girl but she isn’t and I have to respect that she is her own person.
What did Kahlil Gibran say, something along the line of, ‘if you love something/someone set them free, if they come back they were always yours, if they don’t they were never were’. They might be our children but they aren’t ours, they belong to themselves.
Hope this helps. Hugs from one Mum to another.
Veracity, you did say how old she is, mid 20’s. Apologies, I have a bad dose of the flu at the moment and between the coughing, sneezing and nose blowing I lost that piece of information.
I think this is excellent advice. Useful and true and sensitively written. V.
Thank you, Pauline. I appreciate your thoughtful response (and with the flu, no less!).
I’ve always encouraged her independence. I actually encouraged her to take this trip when she was starting to feel unsure if she could do it. I knew it would be a great boost to her confidence and an opportunity to spread her wings. I also encouraged her to meet up with people she knows along the way for safety.
The thing I’m having the hardest time with is that she is traveling alone and no one knows where she is at any given time – not even what country. It doesn’t seem like a wise plan.
The check in’s were a loose – letting me know when she arrives safely in a new city/country.
Thank you again. I hope you’re feeling better.
Veracity
Veracity
If she is meeting up with people she knows along the way that’s good as most fellow travellers swap plans for where they are going next and if they can meet up at another destination. You would be surprised at how many people from your own country you can meet while travelling. I’ve done overseas trips and fallen over fellow Australians everywhere, even in Paris laundromats! I gave my half eaten jar of Vegemite to an Aussie guy in Egypt when I was on my way home.
Sometimes the phone connections are difficult in other countries along with power outlets that you don’t have a converter for. You can’t charge the phone or use the hair dryer.
I know it’s hard not to worry but if she’s picking up on your fears all the time she will stop contacting you as she doesn’t want to hear it. Everyone in their mid 20’s thinks their bullet proof, I know I did and I also thought I knew everything and my parents were past it and had no clue. Kids can be horrible at times and they know how to push your buttons. Don’t take it on board.
Thanks for your kind wishes, I am feeling a little better.
Hi Veracity,
I am curious, did you encourage her to take this trip alone or did you suggest that she go with some friends but eventually she ended up going alone?
I am asking you this because I have a feeling you might have been sending mixed messages about this, something along the lines of ‘be independent but not too much’. If that is the case, it is understandable that you (both of you) feel confused, resentful, etc. If that is the case, it might be worth taking some time to reflect on this issue, and very simply saying it as it might help release some pressure on both sides.
Best wishes for you as always, V.
Hi V.,
She was originally suppose to go with her boyfriend but he backed out. She decided she still wanted to go but was concerned about going alone. I encouraged her to go and meet up with friends along the way and I did express my concerns about going completely solo.
She will be in isolated parts of the world. Her friends wanted to see/do different things, so she did/is doing a large part of it alone.
I think you raise a valid point, V. I think we are both at a point where we are making the final transition into letting go completely. We pretty much only have each other so it’s…I was going to write scary, but I’m not sure that’s it. I’m going to think about it some more.
I could be projecting here…perhaps she made the transition long ago and I’m just getting there. I don’t think so, but it’s possible.
I think a big part of it for me too is that she is of not reliable/responsible and it bugs me. I’ve been working on holding her accountable (I’m often left holding the bag) and we had this plan and she is not following through.
Thank you for taking the time to write. I appreciate it. I feel less alone. Best wishes to you too, V.
Veracity
Slaviana
Your English is fine and thank you for not using dumbed down texting English like so many Americans. I don’t get why so many try and recreate their family dynamics through relationships in adult life. I recognized the sickness of my family early on, rejected them and their message, later through reading a lot of psych texts on the subject as to why they were the way they were, and took care to avoid men similar to them in adult life. Some folk are broken by their families, some get angry and strong. Why do folks accept a dead end life? It’s easier. No self awareness, insight, hard decisions, pushing oneself hard, facing ugly teuths, change, having reevaluate who you truly are. Tragically, older folk don’t have the lifespan remaining to do the years of therapy and healing needed to become whole. Saw this with my late father who destroyed himself through alcoholism and obesity rather than deal with his past and in my best friend, on about year 25 of a very abusive marriage. Nope, there’s no fixing others, you have to decide to stay or go; either way leaving others to their path, good or destructive. The day I finally understood my dad was going to die alone, in his filthy home that he refused to allow me to clean, of deliberately ignoring an illness, was the day I began to be at peace with the situation. Thats pretty much how it ended. Accept as is or walk away are one’s only choices. Society itself seems to condone living a less than life; few drag themselves up by their own bootstraps, move beyond who or what they were born to. No impetus to rise above, be honorable, be present, behave well, and one can always anaesthetize oneself with mass media/pop culture. There are good folk out there but its a matter of wading through a ton of chaff to get at the wheat. I have also found that the standards of behavior that I made myself live up to are not followed here in the west and it has caused a lot of heartbreak. What is a demonstration of love/caring/interest back home means nothing here. Folk that are attached/married here act as though they’re single just for the attention; something that would get you ostracised elsewhere. I realize that my journey out of my current situation may take years as I cannot control either the job nor the real estate market. This means a few more years of crushing loneliness, emotional and intellectual starvation and hoping it isn’t too late to find a quality partner when its all over or having the cojones to just bail out of society entirely rather than accept a less than role. I think we all have to live our truth (for me, that means a social and environmental activist, organic farmer, lover of wilderness though these things aren’t valued in older women), let the chips fall where they may, and let others live theirs.
When I think of my narcissistic mum, I remember her telling me that she wanted to be a surgeon, but when she said that to her high school guidance counselor back in the day, he laughed at that idea and told her that was preposterous – and she believed him. She did not have the inner fight she needed to stretch those limits put upon her by society. Fast forward to me being 16, graduating from high school, and I remember mum saying to me that at times she was jealous of my opportunities.
So I know there is love there, but there is also resentment there. And it has shaped me in some ways, put limits on me, or made me put limits on myself…I’m not sure which.
When I look at my father, I don’t think he believes he has any power to create his own life…he thinks life just happens to him, so he allows things to just go to seed..his house, his health, his money. He gets very defensive if you point out things he could possibly do to change things for the better.
But at some point in our lives, if we are self-aware, have our health, some mental faculties, we realize that we do have some say in how to run our lives.
I am very afraid of turning out like my father. I’ve made similar financial mistakes. And I don’t quite know why. It’s like I have an installed self-destruct button that goes off when things start getting too comfortable. I think it is a button installed by Narmom. Don’t be too successful. Success is only noticeable in other people. Don’t think it’s possible to have a man who loves only you.
From gossip I got from a girlfriend who worked for my father for a little bit of time, after we graduated from highschool, my father was very much a womanizer. I did not see that. He was home every evening. My parents did not cuddle or coo, and they fought occasionally behind closed bedroom doors, but I never heard anything about “cheating” while growing up. But they divorced as soon as I moved out.
Narmom always told me marriage was not all it’s cracked up to be. She said the same about having children – motherhood is not all it’s cracked up to be. There is some truth in that, but it is also limiting. I’m not saying we should tell girls to believe marriage and having children is a fairytale of happiness, because it isn’t. But tell them the truth – it’s hard work, it takes two PARTNERS that are in it for the long haul, so choose your partner wisely – not only for looks and excitement, but for stick-tuitiveness and ability to nurture, and there are intangible joys in marriage and motherhood that you can never feel any other way. The stick-tuitiveness itself should weed out the ACs, because if ACs had that trait, they would be sticking to their original marriages and not hounding new meat.
I am an impressionable person, which for the longest I thought was a bad trait, but I’ve come to learn it is a strength. It means that I can see an idea that is new to me and totally change my direction because of that new idea.
For me, in terms of Narmom, it means that I don’t try to cheer her up when she gets down and nasty, or try to make her see a new optimistic way. I just learn to make good choices for myself. When her mood starts to bring me down, I excuse myself and go do something that brings me up and brightens my future.
Noquay,
Thank you for your kind words.
Unfortunately, too few of us become aware of the dysfunction in our families growing up. What you see at home as a child becomes the norm, no matter how abnormal. It takes a couple of effed up relationships to realize that something isn’t right… with you! Low self esteem, willingness to settle for less than, need for external validation… Read the comments on this topic alone. We need bigger closets for our skeletons, don’t we?!
Reading this site and recognizing myself in many of Natalie’s posts and ladies’ comments has been a process of self discovery for me. I have learned so much. About myself, about other people’s modus operandi.
I held a letting go ceremony this weekend.
A helium balloon and a trusted friend, on a rainy Saturday afternoon, the two of us in a park. I told the universe to take back my wasted love and fix it and gift it to another heart broken girl, so that she is happy.
I said I forgive my EUMM for his inability to love anyone, other than his son. I forgive his transgressions against me, my love and my wounded heart, for there were so many. I thanked him for lessons he taught me – that I will never settle for crumbs, will treat myself with love, care and respect and demand the same from everyone else, and I will never stay in an unhappy situation.
I said the balloon represent him, and all my pain, and tears, and sorrow. And I am letting him go, so farewell. And i unclenched my fist and released the balloon.
I was overcome with emotions, crying uncontrollably as I said my goodbye. Letting go of the balloon was incredibly hard. But what a relief I felt when it started rising to the grey sky and eventually disappeared from my view. What a burden was lifted off my shoulders. I felt cleansed and at peace.
I feel I have moved on now. The sorrow is gone. I don’t want him. I don’t need him. I am free
I wish you all, ladies, to find your way to let go and move on. It is possible.
Slaviana. That was a wonderful idea – the helium balloon. Such a meaningful form of symbolism. Letting go of all the pain and frustration that you experienced with him. Watching it float away in the lovely blue sky until out of sight into oblivion. That’s powerful. You would not want to undo that. It reminds me that my sister and I were supposed to go out on a boat and send our mother’s ashes out to sea. Same idea. The ashes remain in the urn. We’ll do it soon as the weather here is getting warmer. It’s never too late. Thank you for telling us that story. Serene.
Well today I took back my power and deleted the ex EUM/AC from Facebook, Whatsapp and Skype. I have been over 3 weeks NC with him and had stayed off his Facebook until this weekend (I had unfollowed him at the time), and saw him posting about his ‘amazing’ new girlfriend and how happy he was & posting pictures of them from the weekend in London. When I had visited him in November, he had refused to take any pictures of our holiday together or take any pictures of us together. Lol. He is such a piece of shite. Anyway, I just deleted him and although it was hard, I DO feel better now. I just wish I had done it after he dumped me on holiday and thrown out the ‘friendship’ card.
Serene- Thank you for replying to my reply. 🙂 Ok, here goes (taking deep breath): I was sexually assaulted about 5 weeks ago. He was a stranger who grabbed me from behind when I was walking home from work. I didn’t want to mention it here as it doesn’t seem appropriate but, in a way, it does. I pontificate a lot here about how we don’t attract these ACs. They’re just out there and we just happen to be the unlucky ones who don’t have the boundaries or life experience to recognize a shark. Yet, somehow, we find a way to blame ourselves for sharks acting like sharks. In telling my therapist about the assault, my therapist noted how I unconsciously blamed myself for the attack. How sick & twisted is that and I was oblivious to the fact that I’m still a blame-absorber.
To make this story relevant to this post, regardless of my issues, the shark was unaware of my issues & still acted like a shark. These ACS are ACS regardless of our issues. There isn’t something about us that attracts losers; there’s something about us that keeps us from seeing a shark for what it is.
Rosie,
Hugs and warm healing thoughts going out to you across the miles, wherever you are. I am so sorry you went through that. In no way are you to blame, not even a tiny bit for what this rotten souled person did.
Rosie, I’m SO sorry to hear this. Please do not make this any harder on yourself by taking even half a molecule of blame for this! This could happen to any one of us at any time. The amount of friends I have who have been sexually assaulted is staggering. I keep waiting for my “turn.” Thoughts are with you!
Oh, Rosie. I’m soooory to hear that. Thank God you’re in therapy. You have to talk it out sweetie. You’re so right Ac’s are Ac’s regardless of our issues and we must learn to reco0gnize them early on. But Rosie. Please try not to absorb blame. This situation is different. He came up on you from behind and was a stranger. How could you have prevented that? You couldn’t. Perhaps, learning Karate would keep you safe-er and would be mentally empowering for you. I almost had a similar experience when I was in college – 19yrs old at the time. This kid followed me into my aunt’s blding which was 6 floors with an elevator. He, instead of using the elevator and risking detection, was walking me up the stairs to the roof, all the while holding a knife at my face. Luckily for me, a tenant came out of one of the apartments and he ran away. He wasn’t demanding money so Lord only knows what he had in mind had he gotten me up to the roof. Something like that you never forget. Feel better, Rosie and please keep in touch. Hugs. Serene.
I was in the wrong relationship and had issues as well. Probably the reason I stayed too long. I had to fire a carpenter I hired recently because he crossed my boundaries, so reading this blog has really helped me see where I need to act! I will always try now to never let things ‘slide’ because of self doubt concerning shady behavior by others. If they do not act with integrity, I do not need these people, and I now know the consequences of giving certain people the benefit of the doubt when they have done nothing to earn my trust and respect. It is a whole new outlook on my interactions with others. So thank you Natalie, and thanks to all the posters, too!
My God Rosie, I hate that happened to you! Has he been caught? My goodness. And absorbing the blame for it? Wowsa. I believe we blame absorb or take responsibility for a sense of control. We want to feel in control of ourselves and what happens to us. Quite naturally we don’t want to be at the mercy of another like that. We don’t like notion of somebody else choose what type of time and experience we are going to have at any given moment so if we take ownership we feel we can control it. At least I did.
I agree with you. What makes us women think that these guys somehow glean our life history, the one time at band camp, and all of our issues? These guys don’t know all of this, they are not looking to know all of this, and they don’t care about all of this. They don’t deal with their own issues so what makes us think they have interest in ours? As you said, its our issues that leads to us hooking our wagons to these already crappy guys. And these crappy (with relationships)guys are everywhere! I no longer have the notion that me not fixing myself is what is keeping me from magically seeing all of the wonderful relationship material guys that are plentiful out here. Like only ‘good enough’ women have special access to these goggles that allow them and only them to see and access these wonderful guys. Hogwash! I think fixing and managing our issues is going to open our eyes to how broken many of these guys are and whittle the field down even more than what it already is. These particular guys are charlatans, actors, impostors, defrauders, fleecers, poachers, pilferer’s, and ponzi schemers that hate women. We think that because these types always have a woman, multiple women, and they bounce from woman to woman like George of the jungle goes from vine to vine, that they actually like women. .. Nope. Women are easier to manipulate. They know all they have to do is act like they are interested and they can get what they want for a long time from us. Have you ever noticed that most of these men, don’t try this with other men…because they know other (ac) men are not trustworthy and that they tell the same lies. Men with harems look at the women in the harem like a baseball card collector looks at his baseball cards…for his pleasure, leisure, and entertainment. Card collectors collect cards, guys with harems collect attention/ego strokes.
And there is more than narcissism going on. There is definitely some sociopathy and psychopathy going on as well. We tend to forget that like narcissism, sociopathic, and psychopathic/antisocial behavior exists along a spectrum as well. The only sociopaths and antisocials that get attention are those that kill and do what the demon that violated you did. But these things exist along a spectrum and do we honestly think that we have not dated and slept with men that have these traits? Do we honestly think we are the first and only women to try and try again with these types of guys? We women most stop deluding ourselves into thinking that our LOOOOOVE, patience, and vajay jays are going to make the difference. These guys are (what we black women call it) DBR’s damaged beyond repair!!! These guys are the equivalent of a 100 car train that WILL WRECK and our job (BR helps us) is to make sure our arses are not on that train!
Just had a confirmation that it wasn’t my issues like I had thought. I had always had a nagging feeling that a guy friend I was into but hadn’t really dated had something to hide. A few times I would try to ask him out but he’d hesitate even though otherwise we hung out as classmates. Afterward I gave up on him and basically stayed away even though at one point he hinted that he would like to hang out one on one. I’m glad I did! Turns out he was chasing another girl and they just made it official.
I am having one of these days and tomorrow I am sure I will be shoving all of my exposed baggage back in its place.
I haven’t been here in a few years have been doing great, have this really nice boyfriend.
Recently I’ve been feeling like I wasn’t sure where our relationship was going. We live just far enough apart to be inconvenient and we both have kids. Mine are with me full time and he has his part time so its difficult to think about either of us moving or doing much of anything right now. Still, I crave having a partner, someone to wake up next to every night and he just doesn’t seem that interested in doing anything to resolve this. On top of that he has never told his parents about me even though we’ve been together almost 3 years. He never talks about a future with me, he is more about the present. But still he is not hot and cold, he is very open and honest, he is an all around good guy. I have been reluctant to discuss it, partly because I was scared of what he would say. Which I recognized was a bit irrational.
So I finally had the discussion with him today but rather than stopping at that I just flooded out all kinds of extra baggage! We did discuss the important stuff and I know exactly where I stand. It was somewhat what I feared, that he has no desire to merge families or homes, at least not as long as we have children. He actually said that he couldn’t bare to spend more time with someone else s kids than his own. On one hand I can sympathize, but then I also feel that is very unfair! And it hurts. But at the same time I don’t know if I’m overreacting. So I spewed all kinds of stuff. Nothing mean spirited or name calling or anything like that, just exposing how insecure I am, vulnerable, at least in the moment.
I feel terrible, that he feels that way. I feel terrible that I did that, that I wasn’t stronger. I’m embarrassed, exposed. I feel like I’ve blown it even though I know logically that if that was enough to drive him away there were problems already there. Maybe there was no right way to discuss that. He says he loves me, wants to be with me, that I’m very important to him. I don’t want to force him into anything and yet I feel like I need at least the hope of that.
Anyway, yes a very weak day and so I’m back here reading trying to find some logic in what just happened and find some grounding.