Awareness of how we truly want to feel and the path we want to walk is crucial for ensuring that we don’t be and do things that inadvertently take us away from those very things. Too often, we focus on what we want to avoid. The actions and thinking that go into avoidance, though, aren’t the same as those that reflect our desires.
For instance, consider wanting to be happy within a mutually fulfilling relationship that allows us to be our authentic self. That’s different from desiring a relationship based on fear of being alone or fear of stepping up.
One is about love, care, trust, respect, shared values, interdependence, and personal security. The other is about codependency (excessive emotional reliance on others). The latter compromises everything that goes into making a healthy relationship, plus leaves us with very fragile self-esteem.
Likewise, a focus on healthy, mutual friendships creates a whole different set of thinking and behaviour from focusing on not pissing anyone off or inviting disapproval. The habits that go with each foster entirely different types of friendship as well as anxiety levels.
Let’s think about this: does avoiding conflict, criticism, disappointment and rejection, reduce or eliminate these? Or does this avoidance reduce or even eliminate our sense of self and actually magnify our fear of these?
Focusing on avoidance ensures that we’ll spend most of our time worrying about how much we’re liked by others. We’ll have anxiety about whether we’ve done ‘enough’, whether we’ve done something wrong, etc. We’ll also live our lives according to fake rules while wondering why we feel so miserable.
Let’s say we were in a very painful relationship and we’d gradually recognised that No Contact was necessary. Focusing on being happy and healthy leads to more supportive contributing actions on our part than focusing on avoiding pain.
Does, for instance, fear of breaking up, endings and change, mean that attempting to work things out is about achieving happiness?
Distinguishing between desiring personal happiness within a copiloted relationship and wanting to avoid certain things or basing our happiness on trying to influence and control others, gives us a hell of a lot more clarity about what we need to be focusing on. Awareness about what takes us away from who we are or towards it lines up with our knowledge of our values. We understand how our actions and choices stack up with our needs, etc.
We’ll still hurt. We’ll still battle with the grief feelings and having to move forward. And we’ll have moments where we’ll be tempted to reach out. But awareness of how we want to feel and what we ultimately want will minimise the pain that comes from short-circuiting our decisions by chasing temporary relief. Knowing what we want and what it actually involves means that we can remember what happened when we tried to make this person be the solution to avoiding an aspect ourselves. Or we can recall the reality of the relationship and recognise that it doesn’t have the components to give us what we want.
Make sure you’re not mistaking what you want to avoid with your desires and needs. They’re not one and the same thing.
Your thoughts?
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Yes this is so true I am making baby steps but I am making some progress. My feelings I thought I had for this guy are fading. I still battle with the thoughts of all the things that went on between us.
The day he left in my car didn’t come back and had me miss work, the incident where he borrowed money twice and never paid back, him continuously asking me to be in a 3 way with him and another woman or him and one of his friends, and me so out of tune with me and my self respect that I participated with him and his friend and felt bad about it afterwards and still now today.
He said he loved and as of today he still says he loves me and still attempts contact thru random people I guess eventually it will come to an end it’s been since Jan of nc. I tried everything in the book to get this man to love me when I didn’t even love myself enough to remove him from my life.He is away and I feel so free and I’m working on myself learning to love me.I have good days and bad days where I cry but unlike before I get up and try to change my thoughts . I’ll be glad when I am completely done love has faded but now I get stuck with the thoughts of all the things that went on and it makes me sad but I pray to God that phase passes soon.
Lacy,
This is no longer your life…
The day he left in my car didn’t come back and had me miss work, the incident where he borrowed money twice and never paid back, him continuously asking me to be in a 3 way with him and another woman or him and one of his friends, and me so out of tune with me and my self respect that I participated with him and his friend and felt bad about it afterwards and still now today.
Please don’t feel bad any more. Today is a brand new day. You are not doing that now and you are not allowing him to abuse you. And that’s what that behavior was…abuse.
You are free to have any other kind of life you choose to have.
You are a precious jewel.
It used to help me to think of myself as my own protecter. I would give myself advice that I would give to my child and then I would FORCE myself to take that advice. Eventually treating yourself with respect and not accepting anything less from someone else becomes a habit.
I wish I could hug you. I hope you have a peaceful day.
This post helped me so much!
When you finally meet someone, where this person naturally meets your needs… And is actually concerned about your best interests, you wont desire whats-his-face, and what used to draw you in like a moth to a flame, will diminish. That is what I’m experiencing now. It becomes a matter of what you need vs. what you want. And it feels very different. Instead of in-genuine validation, you’ll experience generosity and care, and you wont need to seek validation. whats interesting is that I am also experiencing some grief and wanting to reach out… But, I wont. Because I know these feelings are normal and short-lived. Sometimes, enough is really ‘enough’, and for myself… I ‘gave up’, it gets exhausting going after someone who isn’t right for you. The worrying, the arguing, fitting a square peg/round hole. Sometimes, its better to just give up, and let it be. Especially if its been going on for a long time.
Demke, that grief you are experiencing is the last pains of the acceptance phase. The need to reach out for the last time too. Like when a person dies, some time goes by and you think I wish I had one more thing to say.
It is interesting that you are experiencing this while with someone new and good to you. That makes sense. The letting go is happening maybe faster because you see all the good now and it is easier to not hold on to the bad past anymore. The scab is peeling off with pain, nevertheless, it is about to fall off.
I know what you mean about not needing any validation and feeling you are genuinely cared for. There are no fears, no insecurities. I remember that feeling very well. I am happy for you that you are near the end of the past and in a good relationship.
Thanks Sofia,
I think it’s because the ex still contacts me. I am distancing myself and being honest with him. He knows that I’m seeing someone else, and he still tries to talk me into giving it another shot (his ego is bruised)… and because we were so used to the vicious cycle of breaking up and getting back together, I think he’s thinking that it will be just like any other time. And it’s not. Maybe it’s because he’s not out ‘shagging’ around just yet. That’s my guess. So, even though I am with someone who I believe is my ‘match’, it’s still not easy grieving a relationship that wasn’t good. My identity was so wrapped up in it. So, I take it one day at a time. And.. this post also mentions “a focus on healthy, mutual friendships brings about a whole different set of thinking and behaviour”, this is when I had my ah-ha! moment. It is so true!
When we are in a relationship that isn’t good for us, and then you’re around positive, good people (and are being treated well by a good man, like I am :)), your behaviors and ways of thinking will change. I know for myself, I noticed how negative my thinking was. I realized it was because I was in such a toxic relationship, I wasn’t aware of it before, I just though that I was depressed, a miserable person, etc. And seeing now that it was the unhealthy partnership I was in it was like seeing daylight for the first time. My ex said to me recently, “oh, you’ll just have the same behaviors with the new guy and it’ll go sour”. No. I don’t. And even though I sporadically, and momentarily grief my last relationship that went on for years. I can’t go back. So, ladies… there are good men out there, please believe it and stop wasting your time being unhappy. It’s the unhealthy situation you are in… it’s not ‘you’.
Oh Demke, I needed your post tonight. Here it goes, Friday night, I am missing and grieving again. Not too bad, but still not too good. And you are saying even now, you are in a good relationship, but you are still grieving and healing over your ex.
What gives me hope and positive thoughts is that you are saying, that we were miserable because of the toxic relationship. Whatever fears, insecurities, anxieties, were there it was because we were not happy in the relationship.
I agree with you. When I was with someone, years ago, I remember very well, feeling that warm cozy protective feeling of being loved, of not being afraid of being myself, saying, doing things I would do if I were by myself. I know the feeling.
It is bad that he contacts you. One thing I give my ex a slight credit that he doesn’t contact me. I guess he was not an AC. Perhaps he just lost all the feelings for me.Or was a nice but EU guy. I have to quit trying figuring out what exactly happened. It tears me apart. Especially on a Friday night by myself with a glass of wine and my daughter is at her dads. I better hit the bed shortly.
Thank you, Demke. You can’t even imagine, but your post gave me such hope and optimism. That there is a man out there with whom I can feel myself. He can feel himself. We can build intimacy and feel comfortable around each other. Is that really possible??
I feel I am (finally…jeez) at this point. Ive teetered on it on and off, but this round it seems to be sticking. It really is enough…no amount of poetry words can override his pathetic actions. I dont need his validations because I have my own since I started taking care of me, and I wont need to seek it when with a healthy, respectful, progressive partner.
All these years of nonsense, cleared up, virtually gone…I cant explain how it just ‘lifts’ and the game changes to being over, but you expressed that in way I cannot at mo, so thank you 🙂
Poetry words….every single time I would ask him a question or his opinion on something, he would quote someone, some article, some poem…..never his own original answer.
Rewind,
I dated a guy who did/does that… he is a people pleaser
Natalie,
I completely agree that focusing “on what we want to avoid…” is an error (although this appears to be a clumsy attempt at protecting ourselves). As you say, “Having an awareness of how we truly want to feel and the path we want to walk, IS crucial …”. That is self-awareness.
However, I don’t necessarily agree that “being and doing the things that reflect our NEEDS, EXPECTATIONS and desires” is NOT “…about codependency (excessive emotional reliance on others)…”
I think having NEEDS creates dependency – I much prefer your term, DESIRES. Where does the term ‘needy’ come from?
I also think having EXPECTATIONS is not helpful.
If these are expectations from OURSELVES, this tends to generate negative feelings like guilt or frustration. If expectations are from OTHERS, I again, believe that sets us up for dependency. Both “leaving us with a very fragile self-esteem.”
Just my view
Rachel, I disagree a bit, particularly with the last point about expectations. I think it’s natural and healthy to have expectations for our friendships and relationships and to be fairly direct about what they are. They are our boundaries. We become co-dependent only as a result of having unhealthy expectations, i.e. when we expect someone to be the sole source of our happiness.
I don’t know; they’re just my thoughts…
I also read your comment from another post about your ex’s obsession with his dead ex’s pet and clothing. Glad to hear you’re not in that situation anymore! I guess co-dependency can continue even after the death of the loved one…That’s scary…It also is a good reminder of how Mr. Unavailable’s often hide behind seemingly legitimate explanations. The death of a loved one, the needs of a pet…both seem understandable. I love pets and yes I also miss my family members who are gone…But the thing with these guys is they always find an excuse to get away. And it’s really quite manipulative to hide behind an excuse like that. Very confusing to deal w/ that type of situation (at least for me).
I think the problem isn’t with having expectations – its with whether the expectations are reasonable and what you do when those expectations are not met. Many times when your expectations are not met, you push harder, you become needy, you demand, you coax. We all have expectations of normal human decency and very often we are intimately involved with people that cannot provide that on anything like a consistent basis. That is information with which we should say this person does not meet my expectations. Instead, we usually start saying why can’t he/her meet my expectations? My expectations are logical! I’ll just explain them to this person and then we’ll see what happens etc. The thing is that we get caught up in making the person conform.
I think some type of expectations are also unreasonable – but those are usually for acquaintance type situations. E.g. with the average type of person in your social circle, you cannot have high expectations or get overly emotional if these are not met. That person has other things in their life, and in the future you should adjust your expectations if they are consistently unable to meet them. BUT in your intimate life, if someone consistently doesnt meet your expectations, you not only adjust your expectations, you adjust what standing this person has in your life, whether they should be in your inner circle or not. You might even tell them they are not meeting your expectations and see how they respond – but if they consistently dont meet your (normal) expectations then that person is not good for you.
Suki,
I still think it is the wrong word… it leads to ‘shoulds’ – I noticed you used the word.
“You might even tell them they are not meeting your expectations and see how they respond”
If someone told me I was not meeting their expectations, my immediate reaction would be not favourable… (I won’t swear).
Hmmm, I understand what you’re saying and I agree that its not about shoulds, and yes unrealistic expectations create resentment, entitlement. But aren’t we always functioning with expectations? e.g. expecting a certain division of childcare, expecting the person to be kind, expecting your partner to engage with your family etc.? To me, expectations are part of the glue that bind us together, they bring stability (I know what to expect) etc.
Again, telling someone your expectations isn’t something I assume takes the form ‘I expect you to be on time’ (shudder!) but more clarifying your own boundaries (‘when you are late and dont call me, it makes me feel x’). Both those statements are based on expectations of what counts as decent supportive behavior in your relationship. And the criteria is different for intimate or non-intimate relationships. IN non-intimate ones, I think there is little basis for voicing what you expect but in intimate relationships i think its acceptable to indicate what your expectations are (usually you do this because the expectations are actually clear between you but are somehow being overlooked) or at least to articulate them to yourself.
Suki,
I think it is helpful to know what you desire (and what your boundaries are) and to articulate this to your loved one for sure.
“…telling someone your expectations [is] more clarifying your own boundaries (‘when you are late and dont call me, it makes me feel x’). Both those statements are based on expectations…”
“…telling someone your expectations [is] more clarifying your own boundaries (‘when you are late and dont call me, it makes me feel x’). Both those statements are based on expectations…”
I don’t believe in TELLING anyone anything.
Clarifying your boundaries is helpful, as I said.
Your statement in brackets IS based on EXPECTATIONS and you using the words ‘when you did …, IT MAKES ME FEEL X’ sounds to me like you are blaming him for your feelings…
So, because expectations lead to blame, disempowerment and being a victim, I say NO to using the term EXPECTATIONS. No man controls how I feel.
Suki,
sorry, clarifying…
I noticed you used the word, ‘should’.
Nat attack,
“I think it’s natural and healthy to have expectations for our friendships and relationships and to be fairly direct about what they are. They are our boundaries. We become co-dependent only as a result of having unhealthy expectations…”
Sorry don’t buy into the “it’s natural” argument. Christians argue being gay is wrong because it is “unnatural”.
I agree it is helpful to WISH FOR/DESIRE/ASK FOR things in relationships. Also agree that it is not helpful to wish for ‘unhealthy’ things (e.g. him being your one source of happiness)…
BUT see no room for EXPECTATIONS. That just sets you up for entitlement. Also resentment on both sides.
With you on being direct and having boundaries.
Dear Rachael, Nat attack, Suki..
Interesting topic! I see it this way..
Our boundaries are our identity. Once we know and accept who we are (i.e. having healthy boundaries/identity) then, from a personal point of view, we become better at assessing who/what should and should not “mingle” with our boundaries. From the way I interpreted this article, it seems that natalie uses the term “expection” simply as a tool for discovering and engaging with people/situations that are compatible with our values. Perhaps there is a better word but the message is key here.
It is important not to get our hopes up about things that are beyond our control, and this usually happens when we neglect our boundaries in the name of co-dependency, external validation etc. We take chances when we help and support others with expectations (FROM THEM) in the back of our minds, knowing that we may well be wasting our time. And if we are talking about random guys, it is highly likely that we are wasting our time. There are no guarantees that the receiver of “love, help and support” is going to appreciate our giving inclinations and reciprocate. To avoid pain and resentment, giving should be done consciously and without expectation. I suppose it depends on our experiences, our resources, and…our philanthropist tendencies, but should always be done with healthy boundaries in place.
I meant “expectation” not expection :)lol
My own personal opinion is that I have requirements, not expectations. A person I’m in a committed relationship has to meet the requirements I have set for treatment of myself by a person who is sharing my life. I don’t expect him to do it because I want him to. I require that he treat me with respect, love, caring. If he doesn’t, that’s fine, I will find someone who will…Next…
derby,
what you describe sounds like boundaries to me. I guess it’s in the delivery too. I would not like someone telling me they ‘require’ XYZ from me… prefer to be asked
RP
“… giving should be done consciously and without expectation.”
Agree, but would replace SHOULD with ‘can be’ or “is best (done) “
Yes I agree with you Nat Attack: having expectations that, when I am in a relationship, that person treats me with empathy, respect, and care is totally reasonable. I also expect to be included in someone’s life, on a frequent basis, when we are in a committed relationship. That is all totally reasonable.
Now, to expect those things from one or two of my “stellar” ex’s lol, that was apparently another thing entirely. But I am able to give that to someone,if they are a good match for me, and they should be able to have those expectations as well from me.
I think that people who enter into relationships with people with no expectations are either lying to themselves, or being manipulative: we all have expectations. Interacting with someone by saying “I want to sleep with you, but don’t expect anything from me” even, is still having an expectation; you want sex!
What I notice is that people who say that they have no expectations, often have an inability to respect others, or respect themselves.
I respect myself, thus I expect from myself, and others.
Dancingqueen
““I want to sleep with you…” is NOT having an expectation for sex… they WANT it.
Rachael,
Your comments are thought-provoking. This is a good time to recall the useful feedback you have given to others – including me – at BR. The message that there is a difference between (individual) preferences & (universal) principles or rules. Keeping this in mind, I mainly respond to your comment posted on May 29, 2014 at 4:27 am. Your comment has two parts. I agree with Part I & disagree with Part II. Here is why.
In Part I, you say, “I much prefer” the term “desires” to “needs & expectations”. Good for you. Glad you possess enough self-awareness to understand what you prefer & what you feel about the terms you choose to refute. If you prefer the phrase “I want” over “I need” or “I expect”, that is your preference. It is your personal choice. It is not a universal principle or rule applicable to all people. I like that you used the term “prefer” in your comment. In your comment to Suki, you claim: “I don’t believe in TELLING anyone anything”. In your comment to Teachable, you state: “I am trying to differentiate between not having boundaries at all (doormat sign) and not making demands of others who we love”. Perhaps you are equating telling with demanding? I’m unsure what “telling” means to you. Personally, since I don’t equate telling with demanding or instructing or begging, I try my best to be *transparent* about my needs, expectations, and desires. This approach is not foolproof but often it works for me & for my interlocutors. Regardless of whether someone thinks or uses the phrase “I want or desire” or “I need or expect”, I am not automatically bothered by their chosen expression. Rather, in addition to their chosen words, it is the tone, the context, and the manner in which a person communicates that matters to me.
For example, someone might say “I want you to spend more time with me” or request “Could you spend more time with me?” in a guilt-inducing, pleading, or overbearing manner. On the other hand, in a calm and caring manner, someone could express their need or expectation *and* ask for my input: “I need you to spend more time with me. Do you think you could?” or “I expect you to be ready for the party by 7. Does that work for you?” For me, it is not a big deal whether they say “I want” or “I expect”, as long as they are making room for my input. Even if they don’t ask for my input, I can still agree or disagree to meet their expectation instead of secretly bottling up negative feelings & hiding my actual thoughts. People have expressed “realistic” needs & expectations to me, and I didn’t think they were being “needy” or bossy. In fact it was a relief knowing exactly what they need or expect – and as a result neither they nor I felt confused. Phew! Truth be told, I find such *mutually respectful communication* quite endearing rather than intimidating or off-putting. Problems arise, I think, if people are (1) hiding or misrepresenting their needs & expectations or (2) dismissing or showing little interest in the needs & expectations of another person. *Mutual* respect & communication of needs & expectations is crucial for me to feel close to someone.
In her post, Natalie uses the term “interdependence,” and I think it is useful to differentiate between “co-dependence” and “interdependence”. Co-dependence implies excessive dependence wherein a person makes someone else the center of their life and, as Nat Attack writes, “the sole source of [their] happiness”. Interdependence, however, does not rule out the fact that people can be independent – take care of their needs & expectations through different sources – and at the same time depend on a gf or bf for the fulfillment of certain needs, expectations, and desires. In needing more time & attention from me or expecting me to be time-conscious, people did not become excessively dependent or demanding. These people are emotionally & financially independent. They are maturely expressing a need or expectation – and leaving it up to me to decide whether I can meet their need or expectation. I find this style of communication to be clear & considerate – and it saves each person time & energy because no one has to engage in futile mind-reading or guessing games. Thank Heavens! By expressing their need or expectation, people have (1) shared information about what they think or feel, (2) acknowledged my right to say “Yes” or “No”, and (3) respected my right to act in accordance with my own needs, expectations, and desires. Personally, I feel uncomfortable in response to an expressed need or expectation only if someone (a) communicated in an (passive) aggressive manner, (b) created no room for my input in the first place, or (c) dismissed my input if I gave it to them.
In Part II, you say “If these are expectations from OURSELVES, this *tends to generate* negative feelings like guilt or frustration. If expectations are from OTHERS, I again, believe that *sets us up* for dependency”. Earlier, you say, “I think having NEEDS *creates* dependency”. In short, these sentences present a causal relationship: needs & expectations “tend to generate” or “create” dependency, guilt, frustration, “entitlement,” and “resentment”. In your view, N & E => D, G, F, E, and R. Simply put, this relationship is not necessary. N & E may also lead to positive outcomes for some people. The connections you draw are meaningful – and may even resonate with other BR readers. It must be helpful for you to know that needs & expectations “tend to generate negative feelings” in you. Nevertheless, due to the use of terms “ourselves” and “us” in your comment, it seems to me that you’re no longer talking just about your own preferences or feelings. In any case, it may be more accurate to say that having needs & expectations “creates dependency [for me]” or “sets [me] up for dependency” or “tends to generate negative feelings [in me] like guilt or frustration”. I, for one, cannot fully relate to the negative feelings you describe. These days, it is not needs or expectations per se that give rise to feelings of dependence, guilt, frustration, entitlement or resentment in me. Rather, it is the *imposition* of needs & expectations – “realistic or unrealistic” – that may give rise to negative feelings and outcomes. People trying to impose their needs & expectations on me are unwelcome in my life.
One example: let us say, someone expects me to treat them to £400 dinners at Belmond Le Manoir aux Quat’Saisons. Fact: I can’t meet their expectation right now because my salary does not permit me to indulge in such gastronomic expenses. I feel no guilt for not being able to meet this expectation or desire. But I think it is unrealistic of them to expect this from me. I also think it may not be unrealistic of them to expect this from someone earning a seven-figure salary. Instead of disparaging myself for not being rich enough or judging them for having an expectation, I’ll accept & inform them that I’m not the one for them and I’ll let them go look after their needs & expectations. Plus, I’ll look for someone capable of appreciating restaurant meals I can afford.
One more example: let us say, I expect myself to volunteer once a week. Rachael, for me expectations are not just about boundaries. They are also about *standards* – and it is up to me to decide if a standard is high/low or realistic/unrealistic for me. In expecting myself to volunteer once a week, I’m setting a standard of social service for myself. If I regularly meet my expectation-standard, I feel good. In other words, fulfilled needs & expectations give rise to *positive feelings*. Unfulfilled needs & expectations, on the other hand, do not necessarily give rise to (prolonged) negative feelings because unlike my past I’m learning to be much more forgiving and caring towards myself. Instead of wallowing in negative thoughts or feelings, I ask myself: “Is it realistic of me to have this expectation? Is there something else I can do to meet this expectation?” In other words, I’m open to either modifying my expectation or finding a new strategy to meet my expectation. Bottom line: having needs & expectations may not be “helpful” for you, Rachael. Ultimately, only you know what is best for you.
In my view, the following generate problems: Imposing needs & expectations on others. Demanding others to meet my N & E. Communicating my N & E in (passive) aggressive manner. Taking from others but disregarding their N & E. Making someone the sole source of fulfilling my N & E. Becoming excessively dependent on someone for my N & E. Judging others for having N & E. Having or yielding to “unrealistic” N & E. Beating myself up for not meeting my N & E. Giving someone else the permission to nag me for not meeting their N & E. For me, having needs & expectations per se is not a problem. Personally, I find it helpful to have a clear sense of my own needs & expectations & those of others. It usually helps me to be transparent & interdependent. It usually helps me to communicate about needs, expectations, and desires in a manner that shows self-respect and respect for others.
Nigella,
It’s late, so forgive errors
… there is a difference between personal preferences & absolutes.
I DO equate telling with demanding.
“…I try my best to be *transparent* about my needs, expectations, and desires.” I think honesty is helpful, but do not, as you know think these terms (needs, expectations) are helpful.
I agree that tone matters.
“I need you to spend more time with me. Do you think you could?” or “I expect you to be ready for the party by 7. Does that work for you?” – Both of these I find abrasive and I would be speaking to the other about this. I like the asking parts, but NOT the “I need you to..” and “I expect you to..” parts. Ick
I know “room for [your] input is important to you Nigella – I’ve noticed this.
“I can still agree or disagree..” – yes, you ARE free to not oblige their request.
I agree that if people hide their wishes or dismiss the wishes of another, it creates problems.
I do wonder why communication of needs & expectations is so crucial for you to feel close to someone. Many people think the way you do and maybe it is familiar. I think it is about honesty, maybe, for you.
‘… NEEDING more time & attention… or EXPECTING(whatever)” COULD seem too much for some.
“… no one has to engage in futile mind-reading or guessing games.” – This can be avoided through communication.
“I feel uncomfortable in response to an expressed need or expectation only if someone (a) communicated in an (passive) aggressive manner, (b) created no room for my input in the first place, or (c) dismissed my input if I gave it to them.” – but is it ok for them to say no?
True, expressing N & E MAY lead to positive outcomes for some people. But is the other feeling resentful?
I use of terms “ourselves” and “us” in my comments at times because I believe at this point in my life these ideas are correct. My intention is not to impose my view on others… rather express my belief that they apply to all relationships and are helpful for others.
Just because you cannot relate, does not make the idea wrong.
But I agree it is more helpful to people like yourself to hear my ideas expressed solely as opinion.
I really don’t think HAVING needs or expectations is helpful. Imposing them is not acceptable ‘to me’.
Your examples:
-“I think it is unrealistic of them to expect this from me.” and “… I’ll accept & inform them that I’m not the one for them …” – exactly. Their expectation is not palatable to your senses.
-Why forgive your ‘failure’ to volunteer? Just don’t expect it from yourself in the first place.
Judging others for having N & E… to be clear, I DO NOT do this
Rachel~ You wrote in your comment to Nigella:
“I do wonder why communication of needs & expectations is so crucial for you to feel close to someone. Many people think the way you do and maybe it is familiar. I think it is about honesty, maybe, for you.”
Because I am comfortable and confident about having needs and expectations, it is absolutely vital to to communicate these to friends and boyfriends. I am naturally a very honest person and need (yep, need) to communicate what’s on my mind to others. I strive to do it in a respectful way, and in a manner that encourages discussion and in-put. I found that in my last relationship, I began to keep my expectations to myself so that I wouldn’t rock the boat, and keeping them inside and trying to eliminate them altogether destroyed my self-esteem. I lost my voice in the relationship. And because I lost my voice and confidence, it made it a whole lot harder to walk away.
But I understand that since you don’t have needs or expectations for yourself or others, you wouldn’t want to share them with people in your life. It makes complete sense. So in your future posts, I will try to keep that in mind.
I know your comment was meant for Nigella, but I’m still very interested in this discussion, so I wanted to put in my two cents…
Nat Attack,
I think there is a HUGE difference between having a voice in a relationship and having expectations
Nat Attack,
Two separate points….
I am not perfect when it comes to expressing myself correctly.
I DO have expectations though, in the sense that I can predict something based on past results. For example, I expect the sun will rise tomorrow
Rachael,
Your reply has given me more insight into your “opinion” that “having needs and expectations is [not] helpful”. Here are some clarifications:
1. You say: “Just because you cannot relate, does not make the idea wrong.”
1a. Yes, although I cannot relate to everything you say, I never said or implied that your opinion and “negative feelings such as guilt & frustration” in response to needs & expectations are “wrong”. Of course, your opinion may be “helpful for others”. For me, it has been useful to hear a different perspective. Still, although you think your ideas “apply to all relationships,” I emphasize that they don’t apply to the relationships I – and folk like me – form. Having and communicating about needs & expectations has been *mutually fulfilling* for me and for my near & dear ones. This does not mean that I am right & you are wrong. To me, this means that our approach to needs & expectations is different.
2. You say: “I DO equate telling with demanding.”
2a. If equating telling with demanding suits you, then that is your truth, your choice. Since I don’t equate telling with demanding, I’m open to listening to people tell me what they “need”, “expect”, “want”, “desire”, “feel”, and “think”. Just as I’m interested in communicating with people about their feelings (rather than only their thoughts), so too I’m interested in communicating with people about their needs & expectations (rather than only their “desires”, “wishes”, or “wants”). People are much more complex creatures than just their thoughts or desires. For better or worse, people do have certain feelings, needs, and expectations. Believing otherwise is illusory & unnecessary for me.
People have (positive or negative) feelings, (realistic or unrealistic) expectations and needs – and I, for one, am not afraid to respond to these as I see fit. Ultimately, what matters to me is learning to respond to feelings, needs, and expectations of others & my own in a *mutually respectful* manner. Regardless of what people may be telling me, or demanding from me, I can respond to them as I see fit. I may or may not agree. I may or may not empathize. I may agree or empathize up to a certain point. In turn, they may or may not agree or empathize with me.
3. You say: “’NEEDING more time & attention… or EXPECTING (whatever)” COULD seem too much for some”.
3a. I agree. Having certain needs & expectations, as you say, “COULD seem too much for some”. The same could be said about wants & desires. Indeed, wanting, asking, or requesting for more time & attention or desiring (whatever) could seem too much to some people. So, as I said before, the thing that matters to me is learning to communicate about needs, expectations, and desires in a *mutually respectful* manner instead of wanting people not to have needs or expectations from me.
4. You ask: “but is it ok for them to say no [to your input]”?
4a. Of course it is ok. Just as I may or may not agree or empathize with someone, so too people are free to say “Yes” or “No” to me. They are not my slaves, mirrors, or puppets. Lol. Problems arise when people say “Yes”, but actually want to say “No”. If they want to lie, suffer in silence, or secretly resent me for doing or saying something, that is their choice. Here, I’m not responsible for their dishonesty. They are. On the other hand, if someone is repeatedly saying “No” to discussing & addressing any concerns that may arise, then I’ll accept their decision not to communicate with me & take it as my cue to exit from the relationship.
5. You say: “True, expressing N & E MAY lead to positive outcomes for some people. But is the other feeling resentful?”
5a. Here, I meant that expressing needs & expectations may lead to positive outcomes for *both* people involved in a conversation about N & E. Needless to say, the outcome of such a conversation is not positive if only one person is feeling good and “the other [is] feeling resentful”. The outcome is not positive if one person is feeling good about communicating their N or E, and the other person is feeling resentful about discovering those N & E and (dishonestly, reluctantly, resentfully) agreeing to meet those N & E. I don’t resent people for sharing their needs & expectations – and in such situations, the outcome for me & other parties involved has often been mutually positive. If I can’t meet their N or E, then I’ll say so. In turn, they have three broad options: (1) accept that I can’t meet their N or E and continue our relationship, (2) resent that I can’t meet their N or E and continue our relationship, or (3) accept or resent that I can’t meet their N & E and opt out of the relationship. Bottom line: I have no interest in resenting a person for having & sharing their N & E or holding a grudge against them for leaving me for not meeting their N & E.
6. In response to phrases like “I need you” or “I expect you”, you say that “both of these I find abrasive and I would be speaking to the other about this”.
6a. Good to hear that instead of silently resenting the use of phrases that you understandably “find abrasive”, you “would be speaking to other about this”. “I need” or “I expect” may not be the best phrases for people to use in a conversation. These are not my favorite phrases, but I know that not everybody speaks or thinks like me. Over time, as I began interacting with a variety of people, I learned to raise my tolerance for different communication styles. Daily, I engage with people on personal & professional fronts of different ages, genders, education backgrounds, temperaments, races, cultures, and communication styles. People are not my clones or mirrors. Therefore, although I prefer the use of requests and questions, others might use phrases like “I need” or “I expect”. Such phrases are used in conversations – and the fact that people use such phrases does not necessarily mean that they are being “needy” or bossy, as I said earlier. Having tolerance for differences does not mean accepting things that do not suit me. Thus, instead of judging or resenting people for their chosen phrases, I prefer to let them know if something is not acceptable to me. Then, it is up to them to decide if they can select a different phrase or method of communicating with me. If they prefer not to modify their communication style, then it is up to me to decide how to handle them from that point onwards. I can (1) minimize contact, (2) cut contact, or (3) learn to respond to their comments in a different manner instead of resentfully tolerating things or harboring negative feelings.
7. You ask: “I do wonder why communication of needs & expectations is so crucial for you to feel close to someone. Many people think the way you do and maybe it is familiar. I think it is about honesty, maybe, for you.”
7a. Yes, Rachael. You are right. For me, *mutually respectful* communication of needs & expectations is about being honest and practical. If people tell me what they need or expect, then I can respond accordingly instead of making assumptions about their (unspoken) needs & expectations. For example, returning from a tough day at work, if they “need” me to hold them for a while, but I act on the assumption that cooking dinner might be comforting for them, then despite my best intention I have not met their actual need. In such situations, I could ask them: “Can I get something for you? Help in any way?” Then, it is helpful to hear *honest* replies like: “Could I have a hug?” “Can you hold me, please?” “I need a hug” “I want or need to be held,” “I’d like a hug,” or “Hug would help”. Different people will prefer to hear different phrases. To my ears, all of these are fine. My point is it helps to be given a clear idea of what a person “needs”, “expects,” or “wants” – and it is not always necessary for me to differentiate a “need”, “expectation”, “wish”, “want” or “desire”. On a daily basis, I have no interest in carrying out such hairsplitting distinctions or fussing about the phrases people might use in expressing themselves.
8. Regarding my restaurant example, you say: “Their expectation is not palatable to your senses”.
8a. This is not an accurate reading of what I said. In the imagined scenario, it is not possible for me to meet their expectation because of my limited salary. It is palatable, understandable, and acceptable for me to be aware of their expectation. But since I can’t meet the expectation, I can bid them farewell so that they may have it fulfilled by someone else.
9. You say: “Why forgive your ‘failure’ to volunteer? Just don’t expect it from yourself in the first place.”
9a. No, thanks. This suggestion, perspective, or thought is not helpful to me. In the imagined scenario, if I don’t volunteer as much I expect myself to volunteer, I won’t see that as a “failure”. I’ll give myself credit for trying my best, and I’ll try to understand why I couldn’t meet my expectation. Failures are part of life. Just because I may fail, this doesn’t mean I’ll stop setting goals & standards or having expectations from myself. Likewise, if someone doesn’t meet my expectations, I don’t see them as failing me or as a failure. I approach unmet needs & expectations as revelations of the fact that the other person & I are not compatible.
10. Finally, I repeat, Rachael: I’m not saying that you’re wrong, and I’m right. If you don’t like having or hearing about needs & expectations, then that is your preference – and may this preference bring you immense satisfaction in your relationships. On a closing note, I must say that at the end of the day spoken or written communication is necessary but not sufficient to form meaningful relationships. People can be skilled communicators – say all the right things, request or ask instead of say “I expect”, select the most palatable phrases during conversations, but actually they could be lying or misrepresenting themselves. For this reason, as the last relationship taught me, “actions express priorities” & “actions speak louder than words”. Instead of focusing only on how someone may be expressing their needs or expectations, I consider it important to reflect on their actions and the impact of those actions on me, on them, and on the relationship. They may say all the right things – but their actions could be undermining their words. Conversely, they may not use the best phrases – but their actions could be showing me that they care, love, trust, and respect me.
Nigella,
We could continue to debate (but I see little point and frankly don’t have the energy). I believe I have made my ideas clear. My intention is to give a more helpful approach to relationships than having expectations from others (and self). Not to split hairs. Thank you for your comments.
Language is not the same as communication (I studied cats for years and am just amazed how much they can communicate with their tails! lol)
Meaningful communication has to begin from the pit of our guts and our hearts before finding expression in our heads. Our heads are way too ego-based to manage loving communication to others and ourselves, hence the expression BIG-HEADED.
Something very strange is happening over the past month. I went from:
-literally driving the friend who discarded me when I had cancer around for hours a day rather than taking care of the things that I needed to do to get an important project finished,
-spending lots of time calling people in my family who never too initiative to call me
-ranted about being treated poorly at work by coworkers and passive-aggressively posting details on workplace bullying on the bulletin board rather than addressing it head on
– felt guilty about everything, all the time (3 cheers for Catholicism!)
to becoming this person who suddenly has boundaries, with everyone. I don’t even know how it happened. I was crying about screwing myself over by taking care of everyone else AGAIN, and got into a few fights about not being respected. But that isn’t new. I’d done all that before. I sat in my car one night for four hours because I couldn’t bear to be in my own company in my apartment, because I let myself down so deeply. That was new. But when Deserter friend told me he “wished me well” if I thought he was not an equal friend to me (a trick used effectively to activate my abandonment monster in the past), I wished him well in return. You wanna go? Go! (I may even have said that!)
A relative got drunk at a wedding, and acted a pure fool, storming off into an unsafe neighborhood and requiring police to help find her. I made sure she was safe,obviously, but haven’t spoken to her since. She will apologize before she gets my attention again.
Enabler relative sent me a nasty message because I didn’t drive four hours out of my way to bring a now-sober drunkie home. (I bought her a train ticket. I had a 9-hr drive of my own and no sleep because I was combing crappy neighborhood dives for drunkie.). I didn’t respond for a day, and when I did it was deliberate and calm instead of ranty, and expressed my anger at treatment I got.
Pulled the plug on two quite nice make-out sessions and refused an invitation in for “tea.” Things were going too fast, and I wanted to slow down and make a choice that respected me. Turns out dude still has unfinished business with his ex, and I am Sooo happy I stopped it. I am not emotionally set up for FWB situations, and I do not handle disloyalty well.
Finally, a friend made some fat-shaming comments to after I told her I went for a celebratory ice cream after finishing my National Board exams. I stopped the conversation. She asked for clarity. I explained why it is not OK to give someone shit about a scoop of ice-cream following a moderately gruelling exam that has had her inside in knots for weeks. She threw a tantrum about being called a bigot (never happened, that was her hyperbole), and was very snide with me. I responded: ” New topic or no topic?”. She said:” None. I am annoyed.”. And I wished her a good night. I don’t feel guilt for her feelings of betrayal at being asked to be respectful, or at least not aggressively disrespectful. Too damn bad if she doesn’t like it.
There are other examples from work, too.
I don’t know what this phase is, but I want to keep it.
MyOwnBFF,
I love it! I so admire you going from people pleaser to sticking to your boundaries… that is so difficult!
I just got such a charge of “go girl!” when I read your post.
I recently decided to turn my back on a whole group of friends (many of whom really weren’t friends) who were gossipy and judgmental, who couldn’t wait to spin a tale out of nothing, jump to conclusions and get a little bit of a drama high in the process. Not all of them were bad people (in fact I really don’t see people in terms of good and bad), they just couldn’t see me or understand me whatsoever.
They would attribute their own motives and intentions to me, not able to contribute that I operate on a different set of values altogether. I spent a lot of my time with them feeling like I had to explain myself or justify my existence, feeling that we had no values or interests in common, and trying in a misguided attempt at friendship, kindness and love to connect with them… only to have this misinterpreted and misjudged so badly that I got badly hurt.
I own my own part in it of course, and I’ve learnt a great deal… but in the end, I just decided that I needed to save my energy and my breath because it was a square peg/round hole situation, and they had absolutely no hope of understanding me and seeing the real me. For me to shake the dust off my shoes and stop trying so hard with people who add very little to my life. Free myself up to find those souls with whom I can be my authentic self… and be loved, cared for, trusted and respected for it. I have such people in my life (there are very few of them) so I know they exist 🙂
er, … *not able to comprehend
Clare your experience resonates with me, as does this post. I too have finally learnt to keep boundaries and it feels so empowering. Changing me has been an uphill task, that is still underway but already I can see the results. NC has been a blessing.
I did happen to be in a room a few weeks ago, where AC walked in his new girlfriend, who happens to be my FBF who betrayed me in daylight. I promise you, I did not flich, make eye contact, I sat through an ongoing lecture, with him in my direct field of vision I got up and left when I felt like. But it made me feel like I had crossed a hurdle, of facing the inevitable. I have realized I have more power than I knew. AC texts me the following day trying to sound emapthatic. I continued NC.
There were common friends, and we all live in a same city a few yards from each other. This has been the hardest thing in my life in some ways. But I have done it. Same city, same friends, same hang outs…NC saved me.
Many friends were sympathetic, many tried to be, but only one or two really stood up for me. Its a dog eat dog world. But I still feel that I have expectations and I demand loyalty and am not ashamed of it. That is what I would give someone I loved.
I have learnt to listen to my gut, and stay with a feeling, analyse and respond with more control and clarity. Even with my closest friends I am able to hear my own thoughts and scoot if something doesn’t feel genuine even for a little while. I have lost a few friends in the process because changing pattern is a litmus test not just for your self but for those who know you. Some don’t make it to the other side. And I just think – sad, but that was not meant to be. If you expect me to continue treating my self badly in your presence so that we can stay friends, that is NOT going to happen. I suddenly realize that there are very few people who actually adapt with you as you change. And its so easy to see who is making an effort to understand the new you, who celebrates the changes and supports you, and you can filter them away from the doubting and speculating lot, or the fence sitters, opportunists and of course the ones in denial of change who think you have gone crazy.
Its been a crazy journey. All I can say is trust the process. Its worth it.
Loved your post and this statement:
“because it was a square peg/round hole situation”
True, there will be people who you just cannot fit in with whatsoever and looking back thank god. I would have had to developed drinking or drug problems, and would have had to learn how to lie and hate a LOT, and gotten extremely promiscuous in order to do it, LOL!
I don’t even know you and I’m proud of you!! Maybe it’s not a phase, maybe it’s the new you…..
My Own BFF:
GOOD FOR YOU! I love your post. We all MUST LEARN TO BE OUR OWN BFF’S!
myownbff, you are an inspiration! Very calmly handling your life, asserting that your boundaries are normal and need to be protected/respected, not seeking people to validate your experience/feelings, and believing in your right to be decently treated or giving people the heave-ho!! Wow 🙂
ooooh me likey “New topic or no topic”:)
Think the phase is called “I just had enough BS period”, let’s not even call it a phase though as it should just be a way of life and not even having to “question” it.
That is the problem with so many of of here, when we do anything for OURSELVES that seems more unnatural then doing more for others than we really can or should do and they just get used to it, Kind of like a kid that gets too much candy, they grow to expect it.
This site supported me through some crap a few years ago and now it’s supporting me through more crap now. 2 weeks into NC but am riddled with self-doubt and guilt, constantly rehashing the situation in my mind and then feeling all rejected and hurt because he hasn’t tried to contact me again since I ignored him 2 weeks ago! Intellectually, I know this man is bad news. He’s a fair bit older than me (50) and there were so many red flags I don’t actually know how it was possible to ignore them, but I did, and after 8 months of anxiety, great sex, anxiety, insecurity, anxiety, great sex, ooh an unexpected good week, insecurity, great sex, anxiety etc etc he started to tell me about how he (and these are his own words) uses ‘psychological abuse’ with women when the relationship ends and that one ex even said he had ‘raped her soul’. He is a vain, ego driven, tantrum throwing, controlling, emotionally neglectful person who openly admits to playing games and putting his needs and ego before a woman’s feelings. And then, on the flip side, he is funny and smart and has lovely friends and is a great dad, so I’m left doubting myself and thinking – am I the fuck up round here? Am I super-sensitive? Childish? Prejudging him? But I never felt settled with him, ever. I was always trying to interpret some behaviour or other, or work out what he meant when he said something confusing or bewildering. My life was eaten up by it. I cried, stressed, obsessed, then it was ok and I saw him and we had great sex, only to be followed by more crying, stressing and obsessing!
And now I’m here, boring everyone with my story and crying into my hot chocolate. I’d so appreciate any thoughts/words of wisdom/advice. To say I feel lost is an understatement!
Annie,
Sweet woman, this guy scares me. I think you better get lots of support cause I think he may be true to his word. I really hope he is full of it. You take care and don’t forget there is 3.5 or so billion men on the planet and I bet many are just as great but without all that scary sh_t. Find one and forget him. Please get support xx
Trust me…that “great sex” will sour to “mehhhhh sex” as the shit gets flung at you, because for truly great sex, there has to be love, and intimacy and both people having each others back in every way….without any of that, week by week, month by month, year by year (it can go on that long) you start to get it that it doesnt mean anything…its just sex.
When youre made love to, now theres a different thing….and you know and feel the difference and you believe it because you love you too, and what love you make to your partner is appreciated and cherished and the bond deepens….its beautiful …and theres no insecurity or anxieties….
Its taken me three and a half years to act on my exit (I knew the signs and found this place but still danced on the unavialble dancefloor for sometime after)
When you get it…you will be done
Annie,
Abusive people always have a flip side – they have to be funny and smart and charming because otherwise they would run out of potential victims to abuse. Don´t be fooled by this side of him, and more important: do not question yourself. The experience you had with him is real, and he even told you he uses psychological abuse with women after breaking up (really, why would someone say that? was that a threat? was he putting you in the mood for some SM?).
The man is evil and the only thing to do now is for you to run for the hills and take care of yourself.
Annie….were we dating the same man? ;-)) I have taken him out of the equation of my life, but like you, I still haven’t gotten over the obsessing. I defriended him on fb, then felt guilty for doing so and felt like it was a childish thing to do. It wasn’t to punish him though…it was for my own healing. And like yours, he is smart and funny and handsome. And he has friends too….but it doesn’t matter. It’s how he treated me. And it was awful. I went back time and time again and he delighted in the control he had over me…every time pushing me a bit more to see what he could get me to do. I put up with it for 4 years. And yes, he is an ass. But I came to realize two important things: He does not have the capacity to care for me. AND his behavior affected me only because of my behavior of letting him get away with. I presented no boundaries and he ran with it. I am doing much better…haven’t seen him since March. Hang in there…and you are NOT the crazy one.
In the words of the wonderful and amazing Maya Angelou….”when someone tells you who they are, believe them.”
He flat out told you who he was. He even proved it to you.
Forget about this loser who puts on a show for everyone who is not privvy to knowing him intimately.
You are better than that.
Annie, trust your instincts. Sadness and anxiety after sex is a HUGE clue that he is bad news.
Annie
This dude is downright scary and yep, I am afraid he will eventually rear his ugly head once again. Stay NC!
Raped her soul?
Jeeze, if someone told me their ex said that about them, by the time she pronounced the L in “soul” I’d already be in my car peeling out.
If an ex of mine told me I’d “raped her soul,” I know for damn sure I wouldnt mention it to a potential new love.
And while I am here, I wanted to mention this. Have you noticed an increase in people using the phrase, “I don’t do drama”?
I always think wwhen I hear that, then why are you talking about it? I like a little drama once in a while, to be honest. What I don’t do anymore is crazy. The minute I spot crazy in someone, I am outta there. If I want crazy,
I’ll get a kitten.
This article came right on time! I have being agonizing, crying, fighting, and obsessing over my ex. He has started contacting me after he disappeared six months ago of course it is in the fashion Natalie stated in one of her articles by lazy communication. At first he sent a text with just dots, then he moved on to stupid messages stating that I know you can’t stand me, I know you hate me just want to speak in all caps may I add, and then had a doctor’s appointment where I work and texting me to come up to the front and speak to him. I want something better, so I know this person is not for me. I do have these confusing feeling which makes me upset because even though I know he is wrong for me I still have the urge to contact him and reply to his messages. It takes all the strength that I have not to reply, not to cuss him out, and to not ask him why because in the end there is no excuse for his behavior. It is a hard process, but I know I want something better I have to talk to myself each day to encourage myself not to follow up with these lame ass texts that don’t mean anything. I feel guilty because part me wants him to text just so I can ignore him these article has really help me with my anxiety.
Rachael –
Thank you for your kind words. I don’t know if he’ll do that stuff with me. The last time I saw him he was telling me about the ‘psychological abuse’ and I asked him never to pull that crap on me. He said he wouldn’t. I asked him why I was immune and he said because he had ‘revealed his hand’ and was ‘trying to learn’. I don’t know. I feel confused and empty. Deep down I worry I am over reacting.
Soulfull –
Yes. A friend said the same thing to me. Trouble is, it felt like he was making love to me and I became addicted to it because those were the times I felt we connected and I had some affection and care. But I think the truth is he was just trying to impress and control me through it. I feel ashamed I gave myself so fully to him, and mistook the sex for something more meaningful.
He told me when he broke up with a woman he would wait a while then send the perfectly timed text with just the right wording, flattering her in some way while making sure not to come across as needy. He said he felt good when they came back to him as he knew it was because of the sex. He said he often wasn’t really that bothered about them, but he liked to get them back so HE could do the discarding.
I sat there like an idiot listening to this, not knowing what to think.
Lillia –
It’s the flip side that’s done my head in. How can an amazing, caring, father be that awful? He has lovely friends, is popular and funny and smart as anything. He also has a whole harem on Facebook (he’s not my fb friend, never has been, but I’ve had a little look from time to time) that think he’s wonderful. So I’m left thinking it’s me, that I’m over reacting or that he was joking about the abuse. But I don’t think he was. He said his psychological abuse was ‘subtle’. When he told me about the woman who said he’d raped her soul I remember stopping the car and saying ‘that’s terrible.’ he looked a bit sheepish but shrugged and said ‘I got her back in the end though.’
He did throw occasional tantrums with me, always via text, and always over the fact I hadn’t shown enough initiative re contact and he was sick of doing all the running. But I felt unsure with him, he would with-hold contact and not tell me why, or he would take all day to reply to a text, or he would give me the silent treatment for up to a week. When I was with him he talked about his experiences with other women constantly, compared me to them sexually, virtually never complimented or reassured me and showed no interest in my life or feelings. At least that’s how it felt. I would stay the night and leave the next morning, always driving back from London in tears because I just felt empty and anxious about when he’d contact me again and when he’d want to next see me. As time went on he kept me hanging longer and longer re dates. Im sorry to go on! Look what he’s done to me the prick! My self esteem is in pieces and I feel guilt, shame, loss and hurt.
Rewind –
I hope not! But here’s the thing, he was always telling me he was a good guy that respects women. He never hit me, or called me names. It was more back door than that, just an emotional neglect, a subtle controlling and need to keep me down. I can hardly even give examples but it was definitely there. I’m sure of it.
Oddly, he did tell me of 2 occasions when police were called with previous girlfriends but he said both were misunderstandings. Hmm.
Thank you all for your words and advice. Means more than you know.
Annie,
This story is getting worse!
I think he IS doing that stuff with you…
“He said he wouldn’t (do the stuff with you). I asked him why I was immune (code for you are the exception to the rule) and he said because he had ‘revealed his hand’ and was ‘trying to learn’ (cause apparently he is suddenly reformed).
“He said his psychological abuse was ‘subtle’.” “He told me when he broke up with a woman he would wait a while then send the perfectly timed text with just the right wording, flattering her in some way while making sure not to come across as needy.” That is PRECISELY what he is doing here.
You feel confused and empty because he is full of sh_t… NOT because you are over reacting. Your full-of-sh_t-o-metre is working.
“… I think the truth is he was just trying to impress and CONTROL me through [sex].”
“He said he felt good when they came back to him as he knew it was because of the sex.” (This comment shows no real understanding of women… strikes me as misogynistic – women are not vaginas).
“He said he often wasn’t really that bothered about them, but he liked to get them back so HE could do the discarding.” (This is USING women to prop HIS self-worth – it is completely selfish).
YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT
“When he told me about the woman who said he’d raped her soul I remember stopping the car and saying ‘that’s terrible.’ he looked a bit sheepish but shrugged and said ‘I got her back in the end though.’” – He justifies his behaviour and the justification does not even make sense – this guy’s perceptions are all off!
“He did throw occasional tantrums with me… over the fact I hadn’t shown enough initiative…” YET “…he would with-hold … would give me the silent treatment …”. He is abusive. No doubt about it… needy too!
“…he talked about his experiences with other women constantly, compared me to them sexually, virtually never complimented or reassured me and showed no interest in my life or feelings.” – sadist
“He never hit me, or called me names.” – he does not get credit for NOT physically/verbally abusing you!
Rachael~You are RIGHT ON with this!!!! This guy sounds like a sociopath or something…RUN GIRL, RUN!!! You are NOT crazy!!!
“When he told me about the woman who said he’d raped her soul I remember stopping the car and saying ‘that’s terrible.’ he looked a bit sheepish but shrugged and said ‘I got her back in the end though.’”
Annie, honestly he is a total loser and freak for saying that. Hang in there and stay on this site; honestly, in a few years, or hopefully months, if someone tell you that you will roll your eyes and laugh in their face.
What a douchebag loser he is.
Should I mention all the good times? There were a few, of course there were. He could be sweet and kind and loving at times. I don’t want to portray a one sided picture. He could be a nice person.
Annie,
that´s a good thing because it tells you you´re not a masochist or whatever. You just fell into the hands of a manipulative, cruel man.
And as for the sex thingy, it´s very easy to mistake agression for passion for instance, and the wish to dominate you for emotional closeness (been there, done that). Perhaps you could analyse what was so good about the sex, and try to see it from a different (a manipulative man´s) point of view.
ALL crazy people are good in bed. They have to be.
lol Karen
In my experience, when someone’s behaviour causes you to be off balance, you can misinterpret that as passion, and excitement, and it makes you think that the sex is great. Chances are that this guy isn’t that great in bed. He just has crazy on his side.
Annie,
That is the thing about mr. Unavailable. They do have good qualities….which is what makes them enticing, confusing and infuriating all at the same time. But when the bad outweighs the good, that’s the red flag right there.
Nicole, honestly I don’t agree that many of them have good qualities, I think most of the unavailables “pretend” to have good qualities. LOL:)
Sometimes the good qualities are just chicken sh*tted ones appearing as good qualities too though.
Example: He’s sooo sensitive for example, the poor depressed and lonely lad.. Years later, the truth is discovered: Ugh oh wait, yeah he’s sensitive about HIMSELF and only about HIMSELF, and oh by golly he has it all NOW and still is miserable, so much that he cannot want me to be happy.. WTF?
Just saying – even sometimes those good qualities they too can turn sh*tty if you stick around long enough, LOL!
Annie, are you familiar with the concept of intermittent reinforcement? It’s a powerful form of manipulation. It might be worth reading up on to see if it resonates with your situation.
Most manipulators show nice behaviors at times — if they didn’t, we would mark them as sociopaths, and have nothing to do with them.
Stay close to BR, keep reading and thinking and talking, and you will eventually get this guy out of your thoughts. No Contact is where it’s at…stay the course and you will be fine.
Ted Bundy worked for Lifeline and saved lives.
Of course he had good points, and there were good times. You wouldn’t date someone who was a total loser. Everyone has good points. Everyone can put on a good show, at times. But consistenly, overall…what did he have to offer you? More good, or more bad?
The guy who I am mourning right now is a great father, with lots of friends. I too have asked myself if it was me that was the problem. Nope, it’s not. The way someone treats a friend is different than the way they treat their child and different than the way they treat their lovers. Someone can in fact be a great friend, a great father, a great son, etc, and a really, really, awful romantic partner. The relationships are completely different.
This guy sounds like he has some major issues with needing to know that he can control women. Do you want to be the exception? You won’t be. And it’s not because of who you are or what you do or your worth. It’s because he sees women as things that entertain him, and make him feel powerful. It’s not you, it’s him.
Sorry that you’re hurting. Even though it doesn’t always feel like it right now, you’re definitely better off.
Really cool post Nat- helps keep the focus where it should be in transitional time going on – like how it applies to all relationships and choices we make not just romantic stuff. Having a positive holistic approach is much less scary you are right. Also MyOwnBFF love your comments- think some good relationships are going to fill those gaps pretty soon you made me smile!
Derby,
Thank you. You are right, and so is Maya Angelou!
Lilia,
That’s such an interesting point. He was certainly very alpha-male in bed, although I wouldn’t say aggressive. He could also be very tender. But now I look back and think it was designed to captivate me rather than connect with me. He took his sexual performance incredibly seriously, in fact he said it was the only thing in life he ever wanted to be good at. He felt he had nothing else to offer women (he’s 50, short and has a shite job) so made sure the sex was so off the chart they kept coming back. Yuck. So sad. Although hang on…….I fell for it. Silly thing is, I all it needed to win me over would be kindness, honesty and consistency. 3 things he was incapable of.
Annie, it doesnt matter that he is a great father or friend. [also you are not the daughter so how can you be so sure, and he’s been quite shite to you, so you KNOW he is NOT a good friend to you at least]. This is how we get hooked isn’t it – we ask ourselves, why is he so great to everyone but not me? = and then we respond, there is something wrong with me. My guess is if he can be so shite to you, he is NOT really a good person. Would you respect someone that treated everyone well, except lets say women younger than them that they sleep with? (ugh, doesnt that sound like an awful awful person who has issues with younger women and needs to prove himself to them?).
EVEN if there is something ‘wrong’ with you, (and there might be, just not what you might think is wrong with you – you must be thinking i’m not nice enough or attractive enough but really what is problematic here is for e.g. you are unable to validate your own feelings and the evidence right in front of you – that is what you really need to work on), if something is making you so unhappy what difference does it make whether that thing works for someone else? I mean yoga is good for you, it just makes me really unhappy. Does that make me a bad person?
A man that says he psychologically abuses women = yuck and a real you know what. Run.like.the.wind.Annie and dont look back. Learn how to validate yourself, trust your feelings (see myownbff’s great examples above), cancel your phone plan and internet plan for 4 months if you have to.
Yeah been down the IRONIC road a few times myself, he could been in a wheelchair and it would not had mattered to me etc, then it all turns out that he could not accept anyone under a certain height for example.
Oh It is really IRONIC how things can get sometimes.
MyOwnBFF, love your transformation! You are my idol! I wanna be just like you when I grow up! And I am trying my darndest to grow up.
Please BR readers, don’t wait to grow up. I am near retirement age and I’ve just started growing up in these last 3 years!
Dropping my self-fooling behavior, realizing my penchant for crumb-relationships and the root causes that were sewn in my childhood, recognizing red/amber-flag behavior from lovers, family and friends…….
Thank you BR for helping remove the scales from my eyes.
The line from this post that struck me was “Does, for instance, being afraid of breaking up, endings, and change, mean that staying and trying to work at things is about achieving happiness?” That’s a big fat NO!
Some things need to end. We have to feel the fear and end it any way.
Some change needs to begin. Loving myself and realizing my needs are important and I am the only one who really cares about meeting MY needs first. So I am showering love, care, trust, and respect on ME.
Rachael,
Yes the story does get worse doesn’t it 🙁
Your comments and observations are spot on. I know you are right, intellectually I can see the problem but my feelings are dragging me down with guilt, confusion, shame and hurt. How can I miss a man like this? How can I feel so bereft without him and so jealous at the thought of him with someone else? It doesn’t make sense. My self-esteem is on the floor but when he text 2 weeks ago to test the water I ignored it and if he contacts me again I’ll ignore that too. How ridiculous that I want him to try, so I feel less rejected and can enjoy the moment when I ignore him. I hate myself for that!
Thank you for your words and insight.
Suki
Annie,
I am sorry for how you are feeling. I think you are grieving the loss of something and someone that does not exist – except in your head. You only miss who you THINK he was. Which IS NOT who he IS. When you change the way you view the situation, your feelings will follow. Again, please get support.. this guy is scary and you are very vulnerable. Protect yourself from him. There is someone out there who will love you just how you want and when you find that, you will look back and wonder why the hell you ever liked this guy. Make a ‘fu_k him list’ – all the things you don’t like – every little thing and write how you felt. When you are tempted back.. read it. He is acting like a super ar_e hole.
Annie,
I was thinking about the idea of “feeling rejected”.
The word ‘reject’ is a verb (but can be used as a description or label, like “this dress is faulty, a reject”), but used as a VERB, it means to “not accept or refuse”. So, I got to thinking… a man cannot ‘reject’ what is not offered.
You offered a relationship with Annie to him and he blew it (… he did, really). You withdrew your offer … you said “… [you] ignored…” him two weeks ago. OR DID YOU WITHDRAW YOUR OFFER ANNIE? Maybe you were testing his interest… after all, why else would you be sad that he hasn’t tried since? Is your No contact some sort of last ditched test of his love?
Also, even though he DID reject you (refuse an offer of a relationship by acting like an ar_e), that means you have been ‘rejected’… BUT I disagree that you FEEL REJECTED. You may feel hurt or sad etc BECAUSE he rejected you (that is not really a huge loss to you!), but I think your phrasing “feeling rejected” blurs with the other meaning of ‘reject’ (“this dress is faulty, a reject”). You are NOT faulty, just because he rejects you. He probably would argue he didn’t reject you, rather he would like to think you would be happy with being treated like sh_t.
If you keep offering yourself to him, he can keep rejecting you. You keep hurting. I suggest you try to accept that his behaviours have indicated his (indirect) rejection, and that you grieve the imagined man you hoped he was and DO NOT allow him to reject you again. Accept his rejection. FEEL the pain. Alanis Morissette sings a song that says “The only way out is through”. In the end, if you lose a shitty thing, you have to be better off! It’s like clearing up a serious case of herpes.
I have to agree with Rachael. After a shitty relationship we mourn the thing that wasn´t, not the thing that was.
In my case I also missed the way *I* was before realising that the EUM was never going to be good for me – I missed my own innocence and positive disposition and just, you know, assuming that everybody has good intentions. It´s very hard to realise that people aren´t as nice and healthy as you previously thought (in my case, I was blinded by the fact that we had been good friends for years). Perhaps learning to accept those things is part of becoming a mature person.
She may be grieving what she WISHES he had been…
derby,
yes 🙂
Annie,
The last Fu_k him list I made had at least 70 things on it.
I was blinded by pity for some kind of Parkinson’s thing he had
It might help, Annie, to think of it as detoxing from an addiction. You have grown accustomed to the “high” of the sex and perhaps the attention over all those months, so it now feels very uncomfortable and twitchy to suddenly go without it. But if you interpret that as your body and psyche going through temporary withdrawals, and just see it as transitory cravings that will pass in time, maybe that will take some of the internal pressure off.
As the fog lifts, and your mind clears with time and distance from the situation, a lot of things that don’t make sense will fall into place. It takes a while sometimes to get that clarity…try not to sweat it or beat yourself up if things seem confusing and contradictory right now. Trust the process…
Annie…… I simply cannot believe that someone else is in same place as me…..as horrible as it is, I feel strangely less lonely knowing this (how bad am i?) Reading your posts and the replies sent, is really helping me. I have spent the whole night crying into my pillow (again) after the end of a 12 year (yes…i did say 12 year) “crumb” relationship. I have been in pain for most of it and when not in pain…delirious with happiness (or so I thought) because I had a couple of days after seeing him when I thought things were ok. Then something always kicked in and the doubt and anxiety and fear returned and I was back to the tension of waiting to hear from him to see if “we were ok”. Im literally exhausted with it all, but in so much pain today as he finally told me last night it was over, he didn’t want me anymore but we will always be friends. I discovered this site about 18 months ago after trawling the internet looking for the answer to “how to cope with the searing pain of a breakup)….I stumbled upon BR and have dipped in and out of it since then. I have read such amazing words of wisdom on it…..but today after having had to crawl into work and try put a brave face on……all I can do is sit at my desk and cling onto the words of all you amazing people out there who know my pain and hope…with all my heart….that I can get through today and the next few weeks. I am just SO SO hurt and feel discarded. Will keep on reading all day…thanks to you all for your words xx
Suki,
Yes. I will run away from this damaged man. I am running as we speak. I wish my heart wasn’t so heavy, but I’m determined not to look back. I’ve had 8 months of stress and upset, held together by ‘great’ sex and I can’t do anymore.
Annie,
I think everyone else has given great responses, so I’ll just add that besides the fact that he could be quite attentive and good in bed, is it possible that there was something about the emotional dynamic between you that could have made it enticing?
For example, the sex I had with my ex was probably just about the best sex I’d ever had, but now that some time has passed, I remember that I was often quite turned on by my overwhelming desire for him, my pursuit of him. That overwhelming desire was caused by his unavailability, how emotionally starving I was, how much I wanted connection. I don’t want to reduce it to that dynamic, because physically he was quite good, but the dynamic played a very important component.
Then I think about my first boyfriend, who at 17 was a gentle, kind soul AND amazing in bed, physically and emotionally attentive, the works. There’s no comparison.
We all experience sex very differently, and you and your ex had your own dynamic, I’m just thinking that perhaps it came into play in bed more than you think…
Annie, there’s a quote on here from Ghost that many readers use at times. “Molly, you in danger, girl.” Please focus on the comments, keep reading Nat, and run far far away from this man. Sounds horrid.
I love this post Natalie! I hope you do a follow up to it though. You’re absolutely correct in saying there is a difference in knowing what we don’t want and knowing what is healthy. My problem is I know what I DON’T want, but what do you do when you DON’T know what a healthy relationship looks like? I thought I knew in the past, but I guess I was chasing or dreaming of a “type”. I’ve read some of your posts on that, and that was very eye opening. Where does one go from here though? What would those thought processes “look like”? It’s easy to focus on the negative….I don’t want someone insensitive, someone judgmental, etc. I know I could think “I want someone sensitive, etc.”, but I think there’s more to it than that when you’re actually in the relationship, it’s more complicated than just a list of “wants”? Am I making any sense? Feedback anyone?
Catherine,
I would only date someone with quite similar values as me
“Does, for instance, being afraid of breaking up, endings, and change, mean that staying and trying to work at things is about achieving happiness?”
Kind of had the reverse of these on me where everyone fights me changing myself to have control, Even though the current state sucked and was NOT even working.
And I feel that way that way in general about the expectations of being a female, I am not really as wanting to be sweet or lovely and feminine “acting” to fit in either, I would much rather be more in charge than a follower, and that goes for relationships too, I really think if a man is wanting to be controlling and like a child unable or unwilling to ever listen to me? “That he is actually weaker than me.”
Like I could never ever DEAL with the same people from my past, the arrogance and crap? I would totally slap the sh*t of those people now, I could NOT deal with any non-sense or any kind of degradation period.
I’ve been having very similar thoughts to this post recently. Having met a bloke online a couple of months a go and having had a few good dates, his attentiveness has now waned and I found myself hanging onto the ‘relationship’ in the vain hope that I could make it work. Then I realised I deserve better!!!! So I’m doing the whole no contact thing and making sure my life is full of people and activities that enrich my life. It’s an great feeling to know that you are AMAZING. And if someone can’t compliment your needs and desires then you’re best off without them!
I think ” rejection” is really how you choose to perceive it.
I had a friend with high self-esteem who once dated the type of guy you have dated, Annie, the “showed my hand” guy, for a month before he started to reveal himself.
When he started to act like a sociopath and talk about himself all the time , she broke up with him. She said ” he is not really interesting”
That kind of craziness is sometimes interesting when you are unbalanced but as you get more stable it really does become boring. And really transparent.
There is this guy who hits on me , in our social circle, who sounds a bit like him. For about three weeks he showered me with attention and just as I was starting to think he was a cool guy and interesting, he started bragging about how he was friends with benefits with one woman and a 30 year old is interested in him and blah blah blah. Then he turned around and tried to kiss me. When I dodged him and told him ry pointedly that I don’t like people hitting on me when I don’t give that vibe he told me ” I am alpha male, I don’t think many women meet a man as Alpha as me.” He also told me that I am too ” self protective”
A few years ago I would have perversely been intrigued by this loser and wanted to get him back to his first few weeks of flattery but now? It was like instant gross turn off. I pretty much laughed at him, told him that I am not self protective and wounded and just because a woman does not respond to him doesn’t mean she is wounded: I flat out told him that his narcissism and manipulative attempts were a turn off and thanked him for showing me who he really is. Now he resents me and my friends and I all refer to him as “Alpha Male”: it feels really good to be able to put manipulative people back in their place. Thank you BR!!!
Dancinqueen,
“I am alpha male,…”
Sounds like caveman to me!
I get guys online who often ask if I’ve been hurt… same thing
Oh I am soo with you on that Dancingqueen! Feel disgusted I had ANYTHING to DO with some past fellows myself, if anything I had a hard time “forgiving” myself to have stooped that “low”, and here they were thinking that they would been forever thought of and missed by me, Blah!!
Having healthy needs & expectations, & knowing as well as articulating what these are with our loved ones is essential for self love & loving relationships with others.
When did it become not ok to have needs? For goodness sakes of course having needs is ok! We all have them (whether we are self aware enough to realise this or not) & this NORMAL. That said, having needs is very different to being emotionally sycophantic of others (knowingly or unknowingly).
EG I have a healthy need to give & receive love, be this with myself (1st & foremost), carefully chosen friends or hopefully one day, maybe a significant other. I also have very clear expectations of what is & is not acceptable behaviour (by me & others toward me).
Spurious new age crap that gets bandied about as some sort of thing to aspire to generally in society these days (such as that having needs or expectations is a bad thing ie utter rubbish!) is really quite rediculous & to my mind, could only be swallowed by either simpletons or people who’ve suspended all sense of reason.
Sadly, my visit to BR today has again been less than I was so looking forward to. Nat, thank goodness I know you do not subscribe to such distortions of reality with regards to what is quite normal & in fact essential to healthy human relations!
Give me strength!
“Having healthy needs & expectations, & knowing as well as articulating what these are with our loved ones is essential for self love & loving relationships with others.”
Amen, sister!
Teachable,
How come every time I read a comment of yours I want to stand up and clap? Seriously, this is my spontaneous response! Smiling as I type. I liked taking a peek at your core needs & I hope that each and every one of them is fulfilled. Having needs & expectations does not automatically turn a person into a sycophant or an autocrat. Like you, I have no intention of renouncing my own needs & expectations or turning my back to the needs & expectations of others.
Could I *teach* myself to communicate my needs & expectations more maturely & clearly to others? Yup. Do I foresee berating myself or others for engaging in less-than-ideal communication of needs & expectations? Nope. I do not *expect* emotional or conversational perfection from myself or others in this respect. But I do *need & expect* to have mutually respectful communication about needs & expectations to feel close to someone. This is not to say that I foresee spending long & laborious hours discussing needs & expectations. Oh no!
I just hope I am able to create an environment in which people feel safe & comfortable sharing their needs & expectations. I hope I do not create situations in which people feel as though they have to walk on egg-shells (1) trying to hide their needs & expectations or (2) trying to be painfully tactful about how their needs & expectations are expressed. If someone creates such situations in a futile attempt to silence me, I will make sure I head for the hills.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I am glad you are committed & connected to your needs & expectations. Beautiful.
Sorry to beat a tired horse, but the “expectations” discussion did prompt me to say this:
I would not be pleased if someone I was dating told me they had certain expectations of me. In my head I’d be telling them to take a flying leap (PG version).
I do know of a man saying he “expected” the woman on his arm to be impeccably put together at all times.
When you form a couple, you don’t become one person – you are still two people. I only can expect YOU to be YOU, not someone conforming to my expectation.
I male friend of mine seems to like combativeness – harmless combativeness, but I see he seeks it out. Whether it’s an argument with the phone salesman trying to push a new electric provider, or with the doctor’s staff who won’t fax things for him……etc.
I on the other hand dislike unnecessary conflict, don’t seek it out, and hate the fact that others are so quick to reach for rude in a discussion. I have an expectation for myself that my personal space will be as conflict free as possible. So when I see this habit in my male friend, I know he is not a candidate for me.
In my twenties I dumped a guy because I could not have a conversation with him without him turning it into a conflict. I expect to be able to talk through things with my mate, so again, he was out as a candidate.
A girlfriends’ husband would not read the letters she wrote to him, trying to explain her feelings to him about things that bothered her, because he “expected” she should be able to TALK to him . He refused to read her letters. Total control tactic. Divorced 5 years later.
That’s why due diligence in the dating phase is SO important. I need to learn if YOU being YOU is compatible with ME being ME, or if the differences between YOU and ME are good differences, livable differences, or …not.
And if you are thinking more morally, like, I expect you to be honest…….to me again, that is the due diligence of the dating process, the observation of the character, the witnessing of the actions – not simply a stated expectation – so that one can later play dumb and wounded when you find out he has something shady going on. “He should have told me!” Well he probably did, in his actions, which we all know are way louder than words. And your gut probably told you, too.
I have the expectation that my gut is always right.
Elgie, all,
Maybe I am incorrect….
‘needs’ are real e.g. Maslow’s Hierarchy – Food, Shelter, connection, achievement etc … but I cannot come at “I need YOU to….” or “I EXPECT you…”. Granted we have needs, but strictly speaking they are very few. Everything else is ‘wants’. AS for the way we speak, I know what I prefer and it is similar to you Elgie
Beautifully said, Teachable!
Nat Attack,
Yes that’s a very good point. Dynamics definitely play a large part and I’m sure it had something to do with it. I was very attached to him, partly because he was my first boyfriend in ten years as I had been with women for a decade. He chased me relentlessly, I felt so special and desired, then the mind games and neglect and red flags came up. Never has someone made me feel so insecure and unsure of myself. And yet the sex was always good. But probably this was just that because he took it seriously he had honed his technique. To be honest, I think he does the same performance with everyone! Ouch.
Victoria,
Yes I was without doubt addicted, and am suffering the withdrawals. It wasn’t love – it was attachment, stress, addiction and adrenalin. Now I am left feeling confused about his mind games and control and empty. I also feel so ashamed I sat with a man who openly told me he psychologically abuses women.
Rachael,
I dont think I was testing his interest. I knew no matter how much it was going to hurt that I needed to walk away, and send him the deafening message if SILENCE. But, if I’m honest, I feel rejected that he hasn’t tried to contact me again since then. But it’s just compounding the truth which is that I just wasn’t that important, or if I was he is incapable of showing it. Either one is useless.
I have made the ‘f**k him’ list and it’s as long as my arm! I do hope I start to make sense of everything soon. In my small moments of clarity I feel his dangerous, possibly a narcissist, and deeply inadequate. What a skilled manipulator he is to make me come out of it feeling faulty and defective and not good enough. Hmm.
Thank you all so much for your words of encouragement and support. Appreciated more than you know. Just wish we could all sit round my kitchen table and eat cake!
Annie,
Mmmmm caaaake
“…the truth which is that I just wasn’t that important, or if I was he is incapable of showing it.”
You were NOT important to him, except in as far as you supported his self worth by compromising yourself (cause he is just SO ‘irresistible’)
YOU are important. fact
ps by all means if you desire to have no expectations you wont mind allowing me to pin a huge sign on your back that says, ‘kick me, I’m a DOORMAT’! After all, you shouldn’t mind because you have no expectations of how you ought to be treated, right? You know, like with kindness, honesty, care & respect?! ~rolls eyes~
Teachable,
I am trying to differentiate between not having boundaries at all (doormat sign) and not making demands of others who we love. To me, that’s self respect and respect for others
Teach,
Thank God you’re here. I was getting tired of all the rhetoric bandied about. For fuck’s sake….
Putting it in a nutshell as usual, girl. Brava.
yep!
On topic, a male aqaintence who is totally unsuited for me as a partner (not physically but through verbalisation) hit on me suggesting we might become partners one day. He had been invited to my home to give me a quote for plastering work & stayed for dinner due to time of day / circumstances. I have been feeling lonely for a r ship with a S.O of late but quickly set him straight by telling him I’m off the market. I would not dream of involving myself with him just b.c he has made himself available & I’m (temporarily) a little lonely! Ugh. Where do these men get off?!
I am continuing to work on my health & to prepare myself for a return to study. I wont be dating until both of these areas of my life are sorted (as $ wise, I am now all sorted. What a long way I have come hey! Progress is till at a snails pace though!) lol
Teach
I get this all the time here, and some of the fools are married! This is why I taught myself to do my own repair work and continue to lift heavy stuff despite a serious arm injury. Some men have zero clue as to what’s appropriate and what’s appropriate for them given their situation, values, etc. They don’t do their homework like we do. A retired, down and out, ski bum friend offered to help me shovel when I was really hurting, I took him to lunch in gratitude and he assumed this meant I wanted a relationship and proceeded to stalk me, though pretty ineffectively. I really agree on your comments re. expectations, we all have them and should, otherwise, yep, we are going to be doormat material and could find oneself in a dangerous situation as well.
Everyone,
Here is my situation in a nutshell. I am separated, and almost one year into my separation. We have sold our house and live in separate residences. For all intents and purposes, we live separate lives. There are a few small outstanding financial ties, but those will be wrapped up around the time when the divorce is finalized (later this year).
I am involved in an emotional relationship with a man who is also separated (4 months in). He is still living in the residence (in the guest room and yes, I completely believe him) because he was laid off in April and cannot afford to move out until he is employed again, which I totally get. He’s been applying and even had an interview yesterday, so he is trying. He and his wife agreed to put on a front to the outside world (“living a lie” is what he calls it) until he is able to move out of the house. His main reason for this is that he doesn’t want to have “the conversation” with his daughter until he is able to take action on moving out because he thinks it will confuse her more to tell her what’s going on but remain in the house. However, he is aware that she senses something is up and knows that things will eventually come to a head.
I’ve told him that I simply cannot be in a relationship with him until AT A MINIMUM he has established his own residence and his daughter knows the situation. I think it’s important for him to process the feelings that will come for that without having someone to “run to” to cover those feelings up and push them aside. And not only that, but I refuse to feel like the other woman and if we were to start a relationship now that’s what it would feel like.
So, we just have a friendship. We do our very, very best to keep our conversations platonic. I do ask him questions about his situation and he answers all of them patiently and thoroughly. I don’t feel like he hides anything from me, but I think it’s a mistake to get involved at this point.
Am I doing the right thing here? I think I am but I need some outside reassurance. I want to come out of this situation with my self esteem and self worth in tact, which I currently have even though I sometimes feel very lonely and start to cave (in my own head) but then I come read this website and feel resolved again.
I want a relationship with him. I don’t need one right now though.
Any input (positive or negative) would be greatly appreciated.
Needsomeoutsideadvice,
If you continue this relationship you are wasting your time. You will be the person who prepares him for his next relationship. Do you really want to do all the work that’s going to be involved in strengthening him emotionally and then have him leave because he “needs to find himself?” Please take my advice and look him up a year from now. He has a LOT of work to do emotionally.
Needsome, I’m afraid I agree with derby. This man isn’t in a good place to be a true partner to you; and it will most likely be a good long while before he is.
You won’t really know his true colors until he has stepped away from his marriage properly, spent some time on his own, and (hopefully) done some deep work on himself to heal from the divorce.
Since you’ve asked for direct advice, this would be mine: actively put yourself out there and seek others to date. That is, if you feel ready to do so at this phase of your own divorce process (there is no rush: there will be men and love for you when you feel settled and ready). This dating experience will open you up to possibilities. If, after time has passed, and the guy in question is divorced and has dusted himself off AND he still seems of interest to you, you can see where things go.
I hope that advice isn’t too forward or blunt — please know that it comes from a place of concern, not judgment. I dated a guy who was in similar circumstances to your man of interest, and it was not a good experience for me. I became his Transitional (Nat has good posts on this topic), and it took a chunk out of me.
Victoria,
No, not too blunt. I appreciate it. You are right. I decided to end the friendship with him and asked him to please not call me. He said he his heart was breaking but that he would respect what I’ve asked. He asked when would I accept a call from him. I just told him to focus on himself and his daughter and figure out what he was going to do moving forward. I’m not even 100% sure he will go through with the divorce. Better for me to get out now and work on myself and my own issues and let him do the same on his own.
Thanks for your advice.
Derby,
That is the conclusion that I also came to. I told him on Friday night that this situation wasn’t healthy for either of us nor was it right since while he may WANT a divorce, he isn’t READY for one. He’s got a lot of emotional issues to work out and has expressed some doubts about the divorce as to how it will affect his daughter long term. I can’t allow myself to be “on the line” for someone only to have my heart broken in the end. He choked up pretty bad and said he felt like his heart was breaking. He asked when I would ever entertain a call from him again. He is confused about what he wants or wants to do I should say. I’ve got my own stuff to work through as well so maybe this is God’s way of telling me to focus only on me for the time being and when I’ve done the work to feel happy without a man in my life I will be prepared for a really happy satisfying relationship. Thanks for your advice!
NeedSomeOutsideAdvice,ummm……why are you not believing your gut instincts?
Let’s say everything he says is true – it isn’t, but I can see you are not there yet – you are ABSOLUTELY right in that he needs the space to settle his own life without using you as a place to hide from the realities of his life. If what YOU want for yourself is a man who is 100% there for YOU, this man’s life has too much going on in it right now to fit your bill.
It’s not your job to help him fix his life. Don’t romanticize that you have a role in his life.
Oh….the “doing our Very Very best to keep it platonic”….I recognize that deliciously tempting, highly intoxicating, push-pull of forbidden lust hanging in the air……. You need to make a firm decision in your mind right now of “I will NOT have sex with him” OR “I WILL have sex with him”… I know that game. If you have sex while he is still in this limbo state, please be aware that he will blow cold on you pretty soon thereafter….are you prepared for that.
If there are things about him that you like, and you enjoy his company, I don’t see why you can’t have a platonic buddy here…someone to go to the movies with, go to a concert with….things like that. In my experience, these men don’t ask me to do things like that. They just want to come over, be cozy…hopefully get some sex.
NeedSome,
I wonder what his wife would say. It sounds like you have decided to pursue something with him in the future. My gut says no
I thought about that too. If I were ‘separated’ from my husband but he was still living in the house and carrying on an emotional relationship with someone else I would be beside myself. Once the friendship started getting muddled and went into more than friendly conversation it just didn’t feel right to me anymore and I had to pull the plug. I know I did the right thing even though I feel scared and alone. Clearly, I’ve still got my own issues to deal with.
It is three years to the day that I left for a meeting where, the next day, I was to be humiliated by the at work AC when he showed up with another woman in tow. There were other colleagues present so all I could do was quickly walk away and preserve some measure of dignity. This guy had strung me along for two damn years. Every year since at this time, I say to myself; “never again”. Despite sometimes crushing loneliness, an incredible need (or maybe it is a desire) for human affection, being able to speak my truth on intellectual/environmental stuff, for a more “normal” life where I can spend holidays, breaks, with someone I want to be with, etc. I have come a long way. First figuring out why I missed signals I should have (isolation, loneliness, vulnerability, inability to meet anyone even close to an equal), the reality the situation given my age, responsibilities toward my dad, responsibility to prepare for a meaningful retirement for myself, the reality of being a very vibrant, educated older chick in a very redneck mountain town where 99.9% of the members of the community have very different values from yours. I made many mistakes; trying to force myself to be attracted to someone I was not, wasting huge amounts of money and gas trying to meet like minded dudes from dating sites when I should’ve known they were not on the up and up, trying to morph into a chick that loves the great urban metastasis down the hill when the very sight of shopping malls, concrete, traffic sends me into a cold sweat. Thanks in part to BR, I have also done some things right. I made myself learn to use power tools and work on up-classing my home, I did the research to find out that what the AC did is part of a long-established pattern, found that ALL single female colleagues/community members have experienced the same exact problems as I trying to find someone compatible and that what we are experiencing has a lot to do with the socioeconomic culture of this state/region and little to do with us. I took over two new program areas (unfortunately, both are to be cut), and most importantly, have recognised all manner of problem children, players, and other forms of wannabe hangers-on and vigorously removed them from my life, thanks to what I’ve learned from BR. I still yearn to be with someone I am attracted to, to be held, touched, have sex, talk about environmental/social justice issues, celebrate my birthday, holidays again, but I understand this may never happen again. At least I can tell myself I have done everything humanly possible to make that happen, I am living a very full life, not just plodding along, watching it on TV.
Noquay,
I too, am learning that being single is something I can be at peace with. I want all that stuff too. I also know it is quite rare to have a really great relationship.
Dancingqueen,
All your reactions on here are so strong – from sociopath to douchebag, to dangerous etc. My head knows it’s true, my feelings say how can I have missed the obvious? Or chosen to ignore the obvious? The night he told me about raping the woman’s soul we got back to his, went to his room and he started the moves for sex. I felt frozen, I didn’t want him to touch me. I said I’d rather keep my clothes on for now but he told me to ‘stop playing games’. I felt ashamed, and childish and put my feelings to the side for the sake of his. I hate that I did that.
Catherine,
Thank you! I’m running!
Rachael,
Ted Bundy worked for Lifeline!? That’s incredible. But proves the contradiction perfectly. I seemed to have given myself to someone innately bad, but spent the whole time telling me they were a good guy who had the utmost respect for women. Not sure how I’ll ever trust again.
Victoria,
I’m going to look up intermittent reinforcement now. Thank you. And thank you for your kind and supportive words. I’m hanging on to this site, sticking to no contact and hoping my head will settle soon and I can get him out of my system.
Annie, I understand what it’s like to feel ashamed for things that happened in a controlling relationship. I hope you can be gentle and supportive toward yourself as you continue to detach and disentangle from that guy.
Part of the way guys like him operate is to create destabilizing situations like the one you described, and then to put pressure on you in the moment so you won’t have time to step back and listen to your gut and stay within your healthy, happy boundaries.
To paraphrase Nat: relationships serve to teach us about ourselves. One way to look at what happened is to use it to start thinking about exactly what your boundaries are, and how you will use those boundaries next go-round to stay safe and happy. There’s no shame in “learning on the job”…this is how we grow and adapt throughout our lives.
Nat has written about her “epiphany relationship” and how she used it as a springboard to really think through all sorts of aspects of her life. (You can search for those posts; they might comfort and encourage you.) Perhaps your recent experience can be your epiphany relationship?
Annie
I am concerned about this…
“…he told me to ‘stop playing games’. I felt ashamed, and childish and put my feelings to the side for the sake of his.”
Try really hard not to judge yourself. You did what you did for a reason… I STRONGLY suggest you speak to a professional about this. No reason for shame, but people are REALLY complicated and I think it would be helpful for you to understand the dynamics here. You will probably never understand him, but you can understand why you did as you did. I promise you, it can help to know yourself so guys like this cannot pull the wool over your eyes. xx
LoveFromNel,
I remember that quote!
He’s out of my life, and staying out. He’s just not out of my head yet. I think that’s the tough bit.
Annie,
When he says he will not do that to you, that he put his cards out on the table …….that is double speak for ‘when I do jerk your chain, and I will, I can more effectively deny it now and make you doubt yourself to make you think it’s you, not me.’ He’s grooming you. He’s trying to gain false trust by making you think you are the exception, but this is a calculated chess move. It’s the prequel to a the looming mindfuck. I know this from experience. Please listen to your gut and what the many BR folks are telling you. This guys means you no good. You are a game piece to him, and ego stroke for his twisted mindset. He is mean to women, recognize that. Examine your feelings here, why do you want to be in the position of being the ‘one’ he isn’t mean to? You have nothing to prove to him, except that you are too good for him and that you are not a game piece. You don’t need faux love from a man who looks down on women. You need to find out why you miss and desire a man who clearly finds it amusing to toy with women. Pursuing this will not validate your worth but it will be life changing. You will be picking up your soul piece by piece.
Selkie,
You are right, but my goodness it’s hard to swallow. I promise I’m not pursuing him or the ‘relationship’. I ignored his last contact 2 and a half weeks ago and am pretending to be a woman I’m not, i.e one with self esteem. I’m going to fake it til I make it.
I keep getting flashbacks of some of the things he said.
“When people think I’ve lost it, I’m smiling to myself knowing I’m doing just enough to intimidate while remaining in complete control.”
“Don’t come to my bedroom unless you are going to sleep with me.”
“When I don’t like you anymore I won’t care whether you enjoy sex with me or not.”
“Sometimes a woman will say no, but she doesn’t mean no.”
That’s just the rip of the iceberg. My goodness, this is hard to come to terms with. I gave myself to this man. Told myself he was joking, or I was being too sensitive, or anything rather than face the truth.
Annie,
The truth in this is that you do recognize it now and you are facing it, and improving your self esteem ( baby steps) by leaving him in the dust. That is how you take care of yourself, even if it feels foreign or bad at first. so, to change perspective, you could look at him not contacting you as a compliment, that you are too smart to con and he knows it. Instead of not good enough, you are too good. Keep your head high and forget you ever met this creepazoid. Forgive yourself for giving him more time than he deserved, but pat yourself on the back for listening to your gut and coming here for advice. We are all saying what you already knew inside.
Annie,
Agree with Selkie’s insight on the guy. You too, one day will be able to help other women in this situation because you will have come through the other side and been the stronger woman. Keep up the great work xx
Annie
After my epiphany relationshit I read a book that helped me a lot, Facing love addiction by Pia Mellody. Not that I necesarily am or was a love addict, but this book described the dynamics I got involved in with the EUM. We both participated in a push-pull dance, in which he was avoiding intimacy (and at the same time fuelling my hope to obtain it from him) and I was desperate to get close to him. As time went on, he became cruel as well. I really lost myself in the process. When I look back at that time I can´t believe I let him humiliate me like that. Even while it was going on, there was a part of me that didn´t understand why I couldn´t just break free from the situation. It took me a long time and extensive reading on love addiction (there is a love addiction anonimous forum by a ms Peabody with very good info) and strict NC to be able to take some distance and heal.
The things you tell about your guy remind me of this EUM. At the beginning of our (supposed) romance he told me one of his exes used to say he was so hot when he got angry. That seeing him mad was a turn-on. In my complete naivete I thought he was bringing up some ex in an attempt to make me jealous, because he was insecure about me and wanted to test me. But then someone pointed out to me that he was the one who got turned on whenever he was angry, and that he was trying to figure out if I would participate in some setup with sadism from his part. It never ocurred to me he was doing this, because violence is a complete turn-off for me.
But it made sense, because some other time he told me some ex had asked him to tear her panties apart when they were making out. I just thought what a weird lady that must´ve been, but he went on to ask me if I would want someone to do that to me. I said no, of course not, who would want their nice underwear torn to pieces. I must´ve looked like a complete fool, not realising what he was getting at.
Anyway. There´s no need to judge ourselves for not understanding the language of the deranged. But rest assured that you will get over this and be a stronger, happier woman afterwards.
Lilia,
You are the sweetest girl there ever was xx goodnight
ps. “There´s no need to judge ourselves for not understanding the language of the deranged.” hilarious 🙂
Lillia….
“We both participated in a push-pull dance, in which he was avoiding intimacy (and at the same time fuelling my hope to obtain it from him) and I was desperate to get close to him. As time went on, he became cruel as well. I really lost myself in the process. When I look back at that time I can´t believe I let him humiliate me like that. Even while it was going on, there was a part of me that didn´t understand why I couldn´t just break free from the situation”
Oh….this is SO describing what I was doing too!! I go hot with embarrassment when I think about the things he’s said to me and how I buried the natural responses within me for fear he wouldn’t like what I said and finish it with me!!! Oh god….who am I? I have just ordered the Pia Mellody book on Amazon. finger crossed it helps me figure out what’s wrong with me 🙁
Ghana-gal, you say came to BR 18 months ago after googling how to cope with the searing pain of a breakup, and now you are crying into your pillow because a man who is emotionally unconnected to you even, after 12 years has
“discarded” you. He is even cruel now. But occasionally you were deliriously happy with the crumbs.
You say you lost yourself, now it’s time to find you again. What do you want to do for the rest of your life? How do you want to make money? Who do you want to play with? What are your interests? Your goals? How do you want to contribute to the well being of your family, friends, community? Have you reconciled the problems of your childhood-that is Step One, do not proceed to the next relationship until you figure out how family dynamics control your behaviour.
I too have been reading BR for 18 months. I had a relationship I called “the agony and the ecstasy”. It’s in my past now, but I am grateful to Natalie and this blog for helping me examine the choices I made,my place on this planet, for understanding human behaviour, and valuing the way people care and treat
one another. It’s never too late to take that path.
I always knew what I didn’t want in a relationship. Trust me. I had plenty of experience. One particular AC drove me to this website in 2012. Thanks to Natalie, I did the one thing which saved me. I cut him off for good, and for the year that followed, I endured an emotional roller coaster while trying to restore my dignity and self respect. One day, I read something that really spoke to me. It said: “be the hero of your own life story”. The writer went on to ask the reader to consider your life as a movie in which you play the hero. When I watch my own movie, there are moments when I am not particularly proud of the heroine. But then there are little masterpieces that make me proud. For some reason this tiny piece of wisdom really helped me.
The best thing I did to recover from my horror relationship along with following the “no contact” rule was to create new traditions for myself. The simple ones were things like, going to the local cafe on a Sunday, alone with a newspaper and drink good coffee. The bolder one was to learn to play tennis and go to training four nights a week. It started as an attempt to distract myself from the grief of my horror relationship, but turned into a love of tennis and new friendships.
So, back to the main point of my post. I always knew what I didn’t want in a relationship, but I wasn’t entirely clear about what a good relationship really looked like. I wrote a list of qualities I wanted in a life partner once, but it read like a Disney fairy tale. After a while I forgot about the list and was too busy to think about it again.
Then, on New Years Day this year, I realised that I had moved on. My New Years Resolution list didn’t mention yearning for a relationship. Instead it was just satisfaction with what I have and a resolution to throw more dinner parties (I.e do more celebratory stuff with my friends just for the sake of it).
So, two weeks later, you wouldn’t believe it, I was asked out on a date by an extraordinary man. It’s now six months later and we are still dating like teenagers. It’s still new for both of us, and we still have a lot to find out about each other. For me I understand what it is about this relationship that makes me so happy. He completely respects me and I completely respect him. He doesn’t match my Disney list of the perfect prince, but there’s a sense of reality and peace in being with him. I am a much better resonance around him and he brings the best out of me.
What I have realised from all of this is that I didn’t know what a good relationship really looked like until it appeared in front of me.
Fernleaf,
Your story is as beautiful as an opening fern leaf!
“When I watch my own movie, there are moments when I am not particularly proud…”
I left an emotionally abusive man after reading ‘Bridget Jones’ Diary’ one summer. Your statement reminds me of her, played by Renae. Love that movie!
Fernleaf, it is so wonderful. Your story is so inspiring. I believe that it’s possible to feel normal again in a relationship once you are with a right person.
Thank you for sharing and reminding us because we have forgotten or don’t believe anymore.
Fernleaf,
Loved your post. What I gleaned from it, is pretty much the sum of what NML pushes home so brilliantly: you have to be happy with yourself FIRST, before you can truly be happy with someone else.
The last five months have been such a learning process for me. I’ve gone from needy, crying, and basically feeling like crap about myself to independence, smiling and loving who I am. I have my down moments, but I look at what’s bothering me, and rustle up my good points and focus on them. I’m starting school, got a raise at work, and have booted two potential AC’ s out of my way. My dad has been treating me with respect, and my one sister, (who is a borderline psychotic), isn’t able to push my buttons anymore.
It feels fabulous!
Thank you for sharing your journey, and continued happiness to you in all that you do.
Xx
No_more – I’m so pleased to hear things are going well for you! Your post was wonderful (as was yours, Fernleaf). They were both inspiring to read! Big hugs to you both. Well done! Nel xo
After a year of agony, finally the EU has put an end to the non-relationship, by saying by message last Sunday that ‘there was no emotional connection the last time we saw each other in my apartment’ (after having disappeared for a month). I started therapy on Thursday twice a week. I was at last allowing myself to have some hope that it may be the end of a nightmare and the start of some much needed change. Then today I got the final blow, finding out that I did not get the scholarship I had applied for; which means I am very unlikely to be able to continue with my doctorate. I feel like a complete failure (no matter how much I try to be rational about it) and overwhelmed. I think that – at 43 – I am the lowest point I have ever been in my life.
ReadyForChange, this is a very difficult period in your life. Will it be possible to apply for a scholarship maybe next year? Was it your last chance?
Please don’t feel as a failure. You are not!! You are very hurt and vulnerable right now and you feel like a failure even if you don’t make your tea/coffee right!
I would say, take a break and then continue your academic endeavors. Don’t give up! You will be so much stronger when the next opportunity for the scholarship comes around. Perhaps next year.
For now try to heal and rest and DO NOT feel as a failure. You are not!
Dear Sofia,
thank you so much for your kind words.
I have been reading all your posts in the last few months, and they have been very inspiring.
The therapist said the same, ‘Try to be gentle on yourself’; I was trying to, then the news of the scholarship came, and it all came crashing down on me. I feel like I have no place in this world. I just hope that the therapy will help. And I will keep reading BR, of course. It’s just that it is a bit easier to deal with painful relationships and breakups when at leaat one has other areas of their lives in order. But maybe I needed this, maybe I needed to hit rock bottom in order to be ready for the changes that are badly needed.I feel I have been running in circles all my life, maybe it’s time to get off the treadmill and learn the lessons that I need to learn.
Ready,
“… I have no place in this world.” ??? What does that mean?
I don’t mean to be rude, but it is hard to comment on so little information. Not that I wanna hear ya life story!
I ask the questions where I think we need more info
ReadyForChange,
I had no idea my posts have been inspirational to you. I am glad I could help in any way. I feel I was just complaining and whining a lot the first couple-three months.
I know what you mean. I had to hit the rock bottom too. I was suffering from the psychological effects after the abortion and he supported me for a month or so and told me he loved me and then after that he broke up with me. I felt I wanted to die. I don’t know how I functioned for the first two months. Taking care of my daughter, going to work every day. But I did it. I started going to the church and met some wonderful kind people who have been helping me to heal and with my spiritual journey as well.
It is the hitting of the bottom that will get you up and revived and reborn all for the better. Exactly. Those insignificant but painful relationships that we had had before the epiphany one, those were not enough to cause the shift and change. Once a real crash happens, it happens and we know it. It is the last straw. On top of that you didn’t get the scholarship. I can only imagine how low you are feeling right now. What I believe will happen that you will arise from this experience much stronger than ever before. For now you need to heal and rest and just take care of basic things. Take your life slowly and gently. Calmly and peacefully. Day by day. Once you are stronger you can reapply for the scholarship. I doubt it was your last chance. You were applying for doctorate. Wow!!! And you are saying you are a failure!!! To be at that level already is such an achievement! Be proud of yourself! And once you are better, try applying again. That’s when you will have much more energy, strength and belief in yourself. I know you can do it! You just need some time to heal.
Dear Sofia,
sorry it took me a while to respond.
I just wanted to reaffirm that yes, your posts have been very helpful to me, and no doubt many other BR readers, because I can identify with your struggle (the circumstances are different, yet much of the pain and the doubts are the same), and appreciate your honesty – even when it means uncovering our own unavailabilities and confusion – and also that kernel of hope that keeps us going. Your words resonate with and validate that part of me that doesn’t want to give up, so thank you for that.
Ready,
Did HE send you the message?
Yes, Rachel, he did.
Ready,
Sorry you feel horrible. Why do you think you are a ‘failure’. This is lost on me.
I guess my sense of being a failure precedes the last events, it has been with me always, even though in a latent state for periods of time. I guess that is one of the things I need to address in therapy. At the moment the feeling is exacerbated by having been rejected over and over again by the same person and also the fact that at 43 I feel I have achieved nothing. This is my second attempt at a doctorate, and I am stuck – not only financially – but also in terms of my ability to focus and be productive. It seems like I have been kidding myself trying to be something I am not. I am finding it very hard at the moment to distinguish what is negative thinking and what is reality.
Ready,
I am confident you will have progress with your therapist. I feel sad about your current situation – it sounds hard.
‘…my sense of being a failure … has been with me always, even though in a latent state for periods of time.” It seems you have somewhere along the line got the wrong belief that YOU ARE a failure. I think you could identify where this false belief (about YOU) came from. I believe you are also personalising external events… many of which are outside of your control.
“ALWAYS” may be a sign that you are overgeneralising ‘failure’… which can lead to feelings of despair. (I failed with him, again… I always fail, I will always fail, I have no hope of success EVER).
Also, you say there have been periods of time when the sense of ‘failure’ is not there (‘latent’). This shows that you CAN think differently about yourself and your life. I think you deny these times by framing them as ‘times when the failure sense is latent’. Look up ‘confirmation bias’.
Last, ‘failure’ is NORMAL. WE ALL have outcomes we did not think would occur. I think this thinking comes from having EXPECTATIONS from yourself. If you don’t expect yourself to be ‘improved’, you will always see yourself as just fine (and, yes…. it IS OK TO HAVE GOALS people – I can imagine others commenting on that). The disparity between expectations and reality is the degree to which you will feel disappointed. Look at ‘failure’ as learning. You have discovered new knowledge in this process and are learning new skills and having new experiences.
Remember, feelings are only symptoms of your beliefs. x
Ready,
Bridget: It is a truth universally acknowledged that when one part of your life starts going okay, another falls spectacularly to pieces.
– Bridget Jones’ Diary
Well rachael,
it is more a case of everything falling to pieces really. But I believe in resilience. Maybe – with help – I will come out stronger.
Dear Ready,
I am so sorry you did not get the funding, really, I know how this feels. I also struggle with feelings of being a failure. It started at some point during puberty or maybe even before. I never really understood why, maybe because I had a very unstable upbringing, having to move country every couple of years due to my parents financial problems. They fought a lot and I think my sister and I felt responsible, despite being only 8 years old. However, with the help of BR and loved ones I am in the process of “unlearning” that our worth depends on external factors such as jobs, relationships, looks whatever. If we get stuck in the “I have therefore I am” mind-set then we will always find reasons to label ourselves a failure no matter how many PhDs, professorships, Olympic gold medals we have. Believe me, career-wise I have never felt this low despite having a PhD and 2 post-docs (they are a distant memory now). Returning to Europe was a blessing in terms of emotional security and stability but this came at a cost to my career (by career I mean doing a job that I enjoy). I have applied for postdocs or vaguely challenging jobs since 2 years now with no luck, not even a single interview! My former supervisor told me that I have no chance. You have to be an elite student to get these positions, being average is not enough.
Not very encouraging but the point I want to make Ready, is that life is always gonna hand us some blows, but it the way we approach/manage them that creates true strength and character. Hitting rock bottom is sometimes a blessing in disguise, at least it was for me a few years ago. I am sure you will come out of this, Rachael and Sofia offer you valuable advice. Just don’t give up Ready!
RP, thank you.
I think we must have had similar experiences, both in terms of the unstable upbringing (we did not move around, but my parents did not get on and were not emotionally available)and also the onset of difficulties at puberty.
My rational mind knows that my value does not depend on anything external, but this needs to become a felt, embodied truth. I hope therapy will help me achieve that.
I wish you all the best for your own journey. You have already a doctorate and 2 post-docs, which means you cannot be an ‘average’ student. I suspect that in academia – like most other fields – it’s not all a matter of merit. It also comes down to certain traits of character which are increasingly seen as desirable, some of which are more compatible with obtaining ‘success’ than with being a good, rounded person.
Needsomeadvice,
If yr happy to be a soft place to land for this guy knowing he will (most likely) discard you once he’s used you up to provide free counselling as he navigates this major life change & feels settled in the dissolution of his marriage, then continue this friendship (but definately do NOT to have sex as this guy is NOT yet seperated fully & you have no way of objectively verifying if ALL of what he is telling you is true or not).
Why though take the risk that he might be using you as prop to make ending his marriage more comfortable? He may not be doing this (although odds are he is) & there are literally millions of single, free, emotionally available men out there to choose from. Why choose this guy to invest (read possibly waste) you time & effort on? To me he is a bad choice, certainly for now.
A guy who’d moved out & only very recently divorced wanted to date me a while back. I said no thanks. I did not want to be Miss Finding Myself Inbetween Marriage & My Newly Divorced Status OR one of many he will no doubt cut loose with after 20 yrs of marriage. I also sensed he was on the prowl a bit. In addition I did not like the (covert) cold, detached ruthlessness with which he referred to his marriage.
Let’s get the focus off him for a moment & return this to YOU. What are YOUR needs for a healthy r.ship? I suggest that primary amoung them ought to be only dating ppl who are emotionally available. This guy is NOT that, so to me, you’re selling yourself short here.
Just because you are now divorced does not mean you have to now settle for crumbs / second best.
Teach 🙂
You are right, and I know that you are. I need to see my value here and not settle for emotional crumbs. That’s exactly why last Friday I told him to not contact me anymore while he worked out his separation and possible divorce. He may not even go through with the divorce – who knows!! Now, I’m trying to make decisions that revolve around me and what’s good for me. To be honest, I don’t feel ready for an emotional or physical relationship and maybe that’s why I found this guy appealing – because he’s unavailable.
Rachael,
Having expectations of how we ought to be treated, is not being demanding. This is a myth put forth by people that violate the boundaries of others.
Rather, boundaries & expectations go hand in hand. I have boundaries. They are XYZ (eg that I am treated with kindness, honesty & respect – including my mutual obligation to behave this way toward others also). I EXPECT my boundaries to be respected. If they are not, especially repeatedly & if in fairness, I have talked whatever the boundary violation is through with someone & they STILL they bust my boundaries, I move on. There is nothing wrong with expecting others to respect our boundaries. In fact, this is essential.
Teachable,
I see your point, people COULD accuse those who have boundaries as ‘demanding’, however… I am not talking about abuse situations. I am talking about communication in “normal” relationships. I think if someone had expectations from me, I would feel controlled. I prefer people to let me know what they want or desire and discuss it. Expectations just sounds too authoritarian to me. That is what I think
Rachael and selkie,
The day I chose to ignore his text and move on was the same day I spent hours scouring the Internet for a therapist. And I found one, and we have started. I knew I needed help to deal with all that had happened and to understand why I let it.
X
Annie,
I really hope you are not feeling pressure after all we have said. Even if you went back, you are still a top woman. x
@racheal
Yeah the “alpha male” self aggrandizing self made nickname was kind of laughable.
I hate to say this but the play book for so many of these guys is the same that it alternates between laughable and cry able depending on what stage of my cycle I am in hah
Some of my encounters lately resemble bad pro wrestling bouts: coming to the ring, we have Alpha Male fighting Perimenopausal Woman: who places bets on who will win lol?
Dancing,
I love funny voice-overs… they always mean I am in a good place because I am taking a lighthearted view of things.
Bridget: [rummaging through her fridge] Where the f_ck’s the fucking tuna?
[imitating her line on TV]
Bridget: This is Bridget Jones, with Sit Up Britain, searching for tuna.
Dancing Queen,
Ha ha! I saw a guy on Match who said in his profile, ‘No peri or menopausal women reply please’.
Rachael,
Thank you, that’s a lovely thing to say. I won’t go back though. The more distance I get on things, the more angry and ashamed I feel about all the subtle control, manipulation and put downs, let alone his admission of psychological abuse.
Day 17 of NC and I’m still crying and hurting, but he doesn’t know that ????
I just wish I’d trusted my instinct when I first met him in person (we met online and communicated for a month before our first date) and walked away, because my instinct was right!
X
One thing is for sure, you can bet he’s not losing any sleep over things. That makes me angry!
I don’t know where all those question marks came from on my previous comment. They make ME look deranged..
I keep remembering a time he told me he always knew exactly what he was doing all the time, that he knew all the consequences to his actions and never did or said anything without full awareness of the effect they would have. Now I translate that as ‘I know I was screwing with your head and I don’t care’.
And yet over the 8 months I gave him the benefit of the doubt over and over and over again.
Yuck.
X
Lilia,
Thank you for the book tip – I’ve just ordered it. I need all the help I can get right now.
And thank you for sharing about your ex and his aggressiveness around his sexuality. With my bloke it was all about control, and being able to get exactly what he wanted when he wanted it. I think his height was an issue, he was only 5’5 (I’m 5’9) and I believe he was constantly trying to prove himself. At the beginning of our involvement I told him repeatedly I didn’t sleep with anyone where there wasn’t love. I know that sounds daft in this day and age but I meant it. He then began trying to convince me that sometimes the deeper connection came after sex, not before and that women always ‘fell in love with him after he’d xxxxxx them’
He said and did so many things early on that made me think he wasn’t right and yet I didn’t walk away. Perhaps I thought he was harmless, but by the time I realised he wasn’t I was already invested and hooked.
After our third date he asked me back to his flat and I said yes, but I wouldn’t be taking my clothes off. I said I’d like to have a cup of tea and snuggle up etc but nothing else. I was very clear. He was very clear that he understood. Anyway, we were kissing and he repeatedly tried take my tights off. I kept saying no. He told me to stop playing games again, and I said I wasn’t, I just didn’t feel ready. He persisted, and then stuck his hands inside my underwear. I needed both my hands and all my strength to try and pull it out and I was saying No, Stop It.
Eventually he took his hand out and I got up and said I was going. Strangely, it was him who was moody and wouldn’t look at me. The next morning he text me and was clearly panicking about allegations I might make. He was saying how date rape cases were often a grey area of misunderstanding and that he had put himself in a ‘vulnerable position’.
It wasn’t nice. But what was worse was that I made it all better for him. I put my feelings aside and reassured him, and said the right things and minimised what had happened so that he wouldn’t be left with the guilt and anxiety. I over rode my feelings of disgust, anger and shock to make HIM feel okay. And I continued to see him for another 7 months after that.
Nothing like that ever happened again, but if I ever didn’t want to take my clothes off immediately I was told to stop playing games, which shamed me.
All this from a 50 year old man who was constantly saying how much he respected women, what a good guy he was, how empathy was the Mark of a real man etc etc.
Such a head f..k
Any words of advice in this would be so appreciated
Annie,
This sounds like a sexual assault to me… I am so sorry it happened.
Annie,
It sounds to me like this guy was interested in controlling women to gratify his sexual urges. When you say “no” I decent guy STOPS! You are well rid of him, and his psychological game-playing.
I also had a relationship with an AC that sounds very similar to yours… with lots of red flags I ignored and an initial instinct that this wasn’t the guy for me (I actually recall thinking, “Oh, this will never work” after meeting him).
I also went through months of anxiety, fun times, insecurity, anxiety, lather, rinse & repeat. He even TOLD me he was “a bastard” but of course, I didn’t believe him. I can’t believe how similar he sounds, in your words, “ego driven, tantrum throwing, controlling, emotionally neglectful person.” And on the other hand, he was kind to animals and children (but not me), was funny and smart, supported charities, and stepped in to help his daughter in a time of need. So, I gave him the benefit of the doubt and took him back three times, only to have the same thing happen all over again.
I was also constantly trying to interpret his behavior and strange remarks, and he was always saying something confusing or bewildering. For example, after one very satisfying evening where he told it was “a perfect evening,” he proceeded to tell me he wasn’t sure we’d be together in 10 years (out of the blue remark). How does one thing have anything to do with the other? I think I became obsessed with figuring out how and why he did what he did, and I was continually stressed out, anxious and, I think, addicted to him, addicted to the highs (followed immediately by the lowest of lows).
Others have given you excellent advice. I am commenting here to let you know I have been where you are, doubting what I knew in your heart I needed to do, and thinking I was going crazy. I want to give you encouragement that you are doing the right thing with NC. Please continue No Contact, and things will eventually get better. I speak from experience. It has been a year since I last heard from the AC, and I am now indifferent to him now. I don’t obsess over him or try to find out information or care who he’s with or even think of him very often at all anymore… so it does get easier. Hang in there and keep reading BR for support. It definitely helps!
ThreeDLife
I had a one night stand. I hadn’t had sex in 7. 5 years (I’m 29). I had noticed a friend of a friend, though he paid me no mind until I ran into him at a bar last night. I was very drunk; he was very drunk.
We went to his place. He was very aggressive, it hurt like hell, I cried and went home. It was awful. He was really beautiful looking and nice before the sex stuff.
I am humiliated. It was clear I had little to no clue what I was doing. I have insomnia and was so tired of coming home alone to fein sleep. I thought this was sexual exploration.
I feel like a whore and am in a lot of pain. I was treated like a porn star. I feel like a failure. I just wanted sex with a man I found attractive but it all was so mortifying.
(((Peanut)))
I’ve been trying to think of something to say that would help you feel better.
I did this quite a bit when I was younger and remember how miserable it made me after, usually. I have to say that I was never hurt physically though. Porn wasn’t as pervasive as now. A lot of the practices shown in porn aren’t much good for women, they are all about the man. I had at your age never seen any of it. Neither had the the men. We were just dealing with each other, not trying to perform a scripted movie.
However, it still made me feel rubbish, more often than not.
Don’t put labels on yourself, you made a mistake, that’s all. Be kind to yourself and your body.
I’ll probably get shouted down for this but very handsome men have always shat on me. My best relationships (in and out of bed) were never drop dead gorgeous. But they were guys I got to know as friends first, I would never have picked them off a website.
There’s so much better for you, this experience doesn’t define you in any way unless you choose to allow it.
oh Peanut, sending you love, please don’t feel bad about all this, you have nothing to feel humiliated about. Please be kind and loving to yourself, don’t whatever you do feed the negative voices …
This stuff happens, I did something very similar eighteen months ago. We are not failures, we are on a long journey, and sometimes we go off our healthy map, and experience a crisis in our healing, and do something that triggers intense horrible emotions. You are a brilliant young woman, remember this .x
“you have nothing to feel humiliated about…stuff happens”.
People make choices. You make a choice to go to a bar, to drink too much, to have casual sex with a good looking guy. You end up with regret, it’s not at all what you
really wanted. I do think it was humiliating. That said, it brings you humility. You are facing your human weaknesses, and have faced someone else’s evil side. The sadness is not that you, Peanut, on quite a journey to recover from her youthful pain, had a self-inflicted humiliating experience, the real sadness, is that this man does not feel humiliation by his action.
Annie- Doing this by phone- Could it be that this guy is a sex addict? It sounds vety familiar…Also, I agree with rachael that it sounds like sexual assault. The fact that he called you–you didn’t call him–and brought up sexual assault tells me that he’s probably been accused of this before.
Yes, you did wrong by you by soothing his feelings while overriding your own but see it as looking in the rearview mirror while driving forward. It’s important to be aware of where you came fron and what’s sneaking up in you but what happens if you stay focused on the mirror? Your eyes are off the road in front of you and you will crash. Fogivinrg yourself is taking your focus off the rearview mirror so you can drive safely in the present and drive with purpose into your future. You are the driver, Annie! You can drive yourself on whatever road you choose! 🙂
Peanut- Doing this by phone so comment may not be in the right place. This is in teference to your one night stand: Welcome to the human condition, Peanut! Congratulations on reslizing that you’re a fallen creature like the rest of us! 🙂 I’m not making light of your suffering, just hoping to help you get some perspective. It had been about double the years since I had sex when I caved to temptation last year. Now I’m glad it happened, not because of the guy or because of the sex (foreplay was awesome, intercourse was horrible) or because I’m now ok wirh casual sex (not). It’s because I was forced off the pedestal I had put myself on. Peanut, genuine confidence can only be built on genuine humility, which is nothing more than self-awareness and the awareness and acceptance that we are, indeed, mere creature. The soonsr you accept this, the sooner you’ll move on from your fumble, I promise! 🙂
This hit home, as do most of the articles I’ve read on here. I’m now just 4 days NC and its tough. The toughest part is wondering if maybe since he hasn’t had a long term relationship he doesn’t know how to act, but then I think of all the things that just don’t add up. I come and read these articles when I am feeling weak and want to fb stalk him haha, so far I have not because of the articles and comments. Good luck to all, these situations suck.
All of these comments helped immensely. Just trying to pick myself up.
(((Peanut)))
Believe it or not, but I think it’s a good sign that you are feeling horrible. It means that you are in touch with your own feelings. “Casual” sex without true respect for the other person is humiliating, no matter what society says. I think too many women (and men) are unable to face their real feelings about this.
Peanut, I am so sorry you had this humiliating experience. I too wanted to have sex with a man I found attractive and thought it would be a positive, maybe even a healing “sexual awakening” kind of experience. Something mature and meaningful, maybe even beautiful. Ha! I think this only exists in movies and feminist literature. I won’t be watching “The Bridges of Madison County” anymore… Like you I had to eat the shit sandwich of humiliation. Which left a really horrible taste in my mouth. Really, really horrible. No more going back to that deli for me! And hopefully no more going back for you either Peanut. You will pick yourself up and learn from this. We only learn anything by doing it wrong. And even if it doesn’t feel like it now, that’s a good thing.
ThreeDLife
So good to hear someone else has had such a similar experience to mine. I’m on day 19 of NC and the pain just seems to be building at the moment. Looking forward to feeling better that’s for sure. I’m starting to see him clearly for what he is, and know I’m better off without him (x 100000) but why am I still obsessing and feeling rejected and beside myself with upset when I think of him with someone else? So confusing.
Has your guy tried to contact you during the last year of NC?
Peanut,
Sending you heaps of love. You sound lovely, and that guy sounds disgusting. You have nothing to feel bad about.
Rosie,
Thank you for that. Positive words help so much.
It didn’t occur to me at the time that he could be panicking the next morning, possibly because he’s been in that situation before. I now recognise that I made it better for him because I was actually trying to make it better for ME. I didn’t want to accept what had happened, or see the truth which was that I had become emotionally attached to a man who was capable of that. So I minimised it and brushed it away.
If I had my time again I’d do it so differently!
This poor dead expectant horse has been reincarnated and moved onto it’s next life by now.
Selkie
What do you mean?
Sorry, my sense of humor is kinda weird. I’m referring to the discussion on expectations and needs that has gone on here, and the saying to beat a dead horse when a point gets driven beyond need and the discussion becomes more about being right. This has gone beyond beating a dead horse, even it (the dead horse reincarnated) has moved on.
I wondered what you meant too, Selkie
Oh, the penny just dropped.
I expect you’re right.
Rachael,
This is just a suggestion but when the time feels safe & right for you, it might be helpful to explore emotional unavailabilty within yourself.
Others expecting us to treat them with respect (& them communicating what this means for them to us) is not others being being controlling toward us. It is rather others setting healthy boundaries with us (& sometimes negotiating these to a position of mutual acceptability where appropriate).
The cost of not wanting to be pinned down by others on anything boundary related is exceedingly high. As we become more secure in our ability to love ourselves warts n all, no matter what, we find ourselves being more open to appropriate boundary setting by others, without mistaking this for emotional abuse ie feeling inappropriately controlled.
This is because by that stage, we too, are setting boundaries based on fair & realistic expectations of standard decent behaviour with others.
Take what you want from this & leave the rest. It’s just a thought…
Teach..;)
Teachable,
I do not disagree with you. I simply do not think having expectations is helpful. I think it is better to accept people as they are. I believe ASKING is better than EXPECTING.
It’s consoling to read the comments, ladies, thank you. A few days from now will be the 8th anniversary of an adventure that I ended in two parts: the sexual intimacy ended on Valentine’s Day last year and I went No Contact completely on 1/8 of this year.
Nat speaks of “testing the waters.” He’s doing it now. I’ve blocked his calls on my land line. I just recently blocked his email. When he sends me mail I’m consumed with curiosity and I open it. I thought he was the love of my life. I really thought God sent him to me. I left my husband for him and he said he’d divorce his wife (they don’t live together. I think.) He would act loving and considerate…and I’d catch him trolling for other women and cheating and he’d deny it or just wear me down persuading me not to leave. I stopped policing him because he’d just deny it anyway. Over time he stopped spending the night with me, stopped spending as much time, withdrawing bit by bit, and I took it. I’d throw a tantrum every so often and he’d take it and things would be better for a week and then back to the long, slow withdrawal. He’d call me every day, or almost every day, and I wouldn’t leave my apartment till I got that call.
Long story short, I ended it the first week in January. I’m so lonely and I don’t trust my judgement. I feel like he stole the very last of my youth and beauty – I’m 59 now. I’m afraid of relationships. I miss his companionship. I”m angry at him for lying to me and angry at myself for believing him and EVEN NOW, I still feel confused because he seemed like such a nice guy and I feel so fooled and don’t know what to believe.
vivi,
I am sorry for what you have experienced… it sounds emotionally exhausting
Vivi,
I so relate to what you are going through, and the pain and uncertainty you are in. The conflicting emotions of hurt, loss, confusion, anger and self doubt are the toughest things to deal with.
Only you know what’s right for you, but for what it’s worth I think you are doing the right thing. It sounds like this man has a lot of feelings for you but doesn’t have the capacity to treat you the way you deserve.
Sending you lots of love and support.
Rachael,
If need we to ASK someone to treat us with respect, there’s already a (possibly & maybe even probably) fatal flaw in the relationship. There’s nothing wrong with expecting others to behave respectfully toward us. Similarly, there’s nothing wrong about holding ourselves to the same standard in relation to our dealings with others. I will leave this there & wish you well on your journey.
Ladies, I can’t take anymore. It’s been the best part of a week. Give me strength. I know I am not alone in feeling this way. This is not a forum. I’ve given a little leeway but enough is enough. While there were some interesting points made, I think a lot is being lost in, as someone else pointed out, flogging a dead horse. And then trying to flog it and do CPR on it. And then trying to have the last word about who gets to have the last flog.
Rachael, the one thing I will say to you in all of this, is that you are more than free to disagree with whatever it was you disagreed with in the post about needs, expectations etc, but it is a consistent theme on the blog because it is part of the BR ethos. If you take issue with it, you will take issue much of what I have to say going forwards and I just want to clarify that there won’t be a repeat performance of this each time I mention the words ‘needs’ or ‘expectations’! I’m not looking to impose my view on you. Disagree, but do so within guidelines.
Natalie,
May I offer my apologies for any comments which fall outside site guidelines. To anyone feeling hurt etc after any of my comments, I assure you this has not been my intention. I have tried to be courteous throughout and have tried to be sincere in offering what I think are preferred perspectives. It is apparent these perspectives are not consistent with BR’s culture.
Let me just make clear and this will be the last I say on it – I welcome differing viewpoints. I’m not looking for nor do I need people to validate me. If you wanted to disagree with every last thing I write on here, that would be your prerogative and as long as your comments didn’t cross mine or readers’ lines, your comments would be published. Comments represent less than 1% of the total readership of the site but that doesn’t mean that guidelines about interaction, especially when some people may be vulnerable or people are new to the site, are not important. I very rarely have to not publish a comment and to be fair Rachael, you’ve had a good run. I did not say anything when you clashed with a reader last week who took such such offense at what you said, she is not coming back to the site.
Tone is everything. You as readers and commenters *also* do not need to agree all of the time but what I do ask is that you each consider your tone. I had to make the point about the BR ethos because otherwise, this could run and run and run across posts and it stops being on topic and it also becomes a personal discussion between a small group of people. This is not a forum.
You do not have to share a perspective that you think I or other readers want to hear – your perspective is yours. It is welcome. Differences in opinion add to the rich fabric of the culture of the site but I am drawing the line for you and any other reader who wants to go from sharing their perspective, to picking people up about their perspective and why they have it. You are not the only person in this near week long saga and it’s also not about people being “hurt” – sure there are some readers who are vulnerable at the moment but they’re not a wounded bunch incapable of feedback. I let this run as long as it did because I knew that the people involved could more than handle themselves, but I also thought this would have ended days ago… It is no longer on topic and I am calling time on it.
Natalie,
I can honestly say that the biggest take away I have received from your books and website is this one reoccuring theme…How can I care for someone that doesn’t care for me? How can I possibly be for someone who isn’t for me in some of the most basic ways? I think we women are taught that men are mysterious and they have trouble showing their real feelings, etc. But you cut through all that so clearly. I don’t think I can ever care for or be interested in someone who doesn’t value me at the level that I deserve. Two of my past unavailable men continue to text me once in a while (I have no idea why, nor do I care.) I merely delete the message as I recognize the numbers (but do not have them saved in my phone.) It’s empowering and I don’t see it as giving up anything. I see it as giving myself the gift of self-love and strength. There is nothing of value they can offer me and being alone is much better than being on someone else’s rollercoaster ride.
A million thanks,
Laura
Dear Laura,
What a wonderful comment. I too have come to a similar revelation in the past few weeks, thanks to Natalie and this wonderful website. In relation to your comment where you say ‘I think we women are taught that men are mysterious’, may I also add that I think we are taught (or learn) to be people-pleasers (in my opinion anyway).
I have recently met a guy who I’m going on a date with tonight. He’s seems to be everything that the past two EUMs were not – lovely and kind and just that ‘bit too nice’. I’m cautiously optimistic, and I’m trying to rustle up all the BR knowledge that I’ve accumulated over the past nine months of reading here. Most of all, I’m trying to tell myself not to be put off by nice.
PS Nat, thank you so much for your comment on tone. In our digital age where the written word is often the main form of communication, tone becomes hugely important. We can’t see the non-verbal gestures, the eye contact, the facial expressions. All we have to rely on is tone, and its importance cannot be underestimated.
Hugs all round,
Nel
Nel,
You sounds so much better:) It is great to see the change in you. Your date sounds nice. Just enjoy and have fun and share here if you want about your experience. If/whenever I go out on a date, I certainly will apply all the knowledge I learned here. I am still not ready though even if I met a potential date.
Hugs:)
Nel,
Thank you and I wish you the best. I hope you enjoyed your date or at least the experience of it.
Laura
Laura, I can resonate with your post. I finally started thinking this way too. “Why do I continue caring for someone who doesn’t care for me?” Also, like you, I now ignore and delete sporadic messages or e-mails from other exes from years ago. They message about once a quarter or 1/2 year, out of the blue. Back then, before the epiphany relationship breakup and Nat’s blog, I would engage in a conversation, meet up with them, hook up, have a one night stand to satisfy my whatever at the time: horniness, ego stroke, validation, feeling needed, attractive, sexy. Now, I just delete these messages and wonder for the first time, how can adult people, parents, act like this? Sending messages to someone who ignores them? Makes me devalue them even more and makes me amazed at how I could even consider giving these people a second of my time. I contribute these changes to Nat’s blog, to the readers and writers like you, psychology books, spiritual guidance, and finally, the breakup that turned my entire world upside down. And I am lucky and happy it did.
Being alone is much better than being with someone who doesn’t care about you. I understood it only now. And happy I have. Best of luck, Laura. You are on the right path.
Sofia,
Thanks for your encouraging words. I can relate to much of what you have said as well. I have decided that my ego and my libido are the enemy in making decisions where men are concerned. I know I’m not ready to date yet as I’m not sure that the universe didn’t show me these unavailable men for a reason, like I’m supposed to be alone. But it is nice to know that other people are on this same path of self-discovery to at least try to uncover their own responsibility in a series of failed relationships. Not to mention a failed 20 year marriage to boot. Wishing you the best as well!
Laura
I have spent the last year trying to make something work that was never going to work whatever I did. I was told from the beginning that he did not want a relationship and really what followed was all about sex. In 3.5 years we have only spent around 4 months physically together which is not my idea of a mutally fulfilling relationship. There was always an excuse – his lifestyle (whatever that was as he works in a regular job), work, his sick adult child, his ex wife etc etc. He wanted me around and then he didn’t – hot and cold, push and pull. After coming back home for family reasons he dumped me for another woman by text – he told me she pursued him, abused him and had a personality disorder. I know that he pursued her for his own benefit and she was worked him out early and kicked him to the kerb. I was in a stressful job where I had little support from my employer who was based in another country and this combined with loneliness led me to regularly reach out to him for comfort. Eventually he enjoyed the ego stroke and the diversion I provided and wanted to give it another go -he also wanted me to move to another country with him- this was another lie so he could get what he wanted. We would meet up for a week and after lots of sex and getting on ok he would turn around and tell me that it would not work. This was after he got me to open up to him about personal matters which he would throw back at me. Sometimes this was a verbal attack in a public place. It was always him not me but I kept agreeing to meet up. Most recently we met up in our own country and as usual he broke his promises – we were meant to spend a week together but he had meetings organised with people in relation to his upcoming job. This was disappointing but par for the course but when we did hang out we enjoyed our time together – he was affectionate and people who saw us would have said we were in a loving relationship. On the last day I was upset that he was going away and he turned around and told me that he was going to be very busy and that he would keep in touch by email – no time to talk/chat which shocked me. He then said that while he liked being with me (read sex and me organising everything and helping him) he cannot give me what I wanted and did not see me as a long term partner but rather as a helpful friend. He denied saying a number of things I raised with him (gaslighting)and generally increased my distress. He then alluded to sleeping with other women in the future. The shoe finally dropped as it had many times before when I chose to ignore it. We went back to the hotel and he wanted to have sex but I pushed him away. He then started saying things about me visiting him so he could feel good about himself and get what he wanted before he left. After he returned to his home city he cut off completely from me – did not want to talk – was cool and distant as he did said he did not want to encourage me, give me false hope. Yes, much better to be alone than be with someone who does not care and emotionally abuses you. I am now with people who care about me and will work on what I want in life that is healthy.
Wow! this is epic and life changing! i am so grateful to u for helping to change my, my friends, my cousins lives! in london i see so many good young intelligent girls and even young guys frustrated, misled, immature in relationships or even being single! honestly u should come out with books and regular articles on independent or guardian! you rock! If there is a God he shall be extremely happy with your action to improve the lives of others! Probably you are a billionaire in the true sense!