Interdependence: I explain the difference between dependence, being fiercely protective of your independence, and interdependence and why the latter is what happens when you allow you to feel all of your feelings.
Why do we bounce back at different rates?: I talk about how the pain, fear and guilt that we carry in our emotional baggage impacts on our bounce-back rate when we experience life’s challenges.
Insincere insistence of repayment: Ever had a family member (or another loved one) borrow money from you, tell you that they’re going to pay you back, you then don’t chase them about it and have even written it off, only for them to get mad at you for saying OK when they come to you reminding you that they’re going to repay you or for accepting the money when they give it back? Yeah, I know—it’s messed up! I explain why this is one of life’s ways of teaching us about walking around the trap.
Listener Question: Why haven’t I moved on when I’m the one who walked away? This week’s listener realised that she needed to make big changes and stepped away from the people who weren’t good for her. Two years on and much happier, she’s ruminating about why they didn’t try to get in touch after she cut them off.
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Hi Natalie, I really like your blogs for their amazing content. I also have to admit that I have been an emotionally unavailable person and it helped me to get some distance as well as concentrate more on self improvement. However I am not sure if in this era of online dating if meeting a relationship-minded partner will be free of its share of heartaches, no matter how much one keeps evolving. If it’s okay, I have a major concern and want your opinion on this.
I thought that I had met a guy with whom things finally clicked over a period of time. I liked that he had his hobbies, his friends, his work and also that he seemed to be attentive, honest and the genuine deal. There were times during which he withdrew but then each time we talked or met in person, I felt a renewed connection. He eventually expressed his desire to marry me, although I felt that we could have talked more to get to know each other, I agreed to make us official because I really liked him.
But I see now in one year that nothing has changed. He’s still same old Mr Unavailable. I feel more like an option, than a priority with him (he likes spending more time with his friends, doesn’t miss talking to me much, our conversations are more of superficial stuff) and somehow that’s making me want to disconnect from him. We stay in separate places and he wants to do all the ‘right things’ like considering buying a home, wants to fix a marriage date, he brings me gifts, we did get engaged, know each other’s friends, his family is fine (no red flags I could see), and yet I do not feel like he’s fully emotionally committed. He holds himself at a distance (calls once a week, meet maybe once in 2 months, doesn’t share his feelings, has shown a genuine desire to fully know me, talk about deeper stuff, anytime I have a sense of intimacy building – in that he shares something significant from his life, he withdraws emotionally and physically for days). Am not comfortable setting any marriage dates until I can understand what is really happening in here. I see him more of as a bachelor than someone who really understands what marriage involves. It is so painful because I really don’t know how to handle this hidden ambivalence in him (he doesn’t seem to register this), and it’s painful (if I take my space, he will come pursuing, but I know post a few calls he will go right back to his old self). Why can’t he fully make up his mind, just either fully connect or break-up in entirety? I wish I had not agreed to become engaged and involved our families in this. What’s the right way to handle this?
Thanks for reading. I hope you are doing well too and if you need time to respond to this, that’s fine too.
Crystal
on 24/12/2016 at 7:31 am
Julie, do you really only see him once every two months? That’s not very much time, especially over only a year. It’s not enough time to get to know someone on any level, let alone be in a serious relationship together. Trust your gut–it’s telling you the right thing about this guy.
Julie
on 25/12/2016 at 11:01 am
Hi Crystal. I guess I made the mistake of thinking that if I am incredibly interested in him and having difficulty in expressing myself well, maybe he must be in the same boat. It’s weird how our feelings despite our best of intentions can throw us off.
For example, somewhere around the 3rd month of us dating each other I was wondering how come he was off on a 10-day vacation with family and didn’t feel the need to connect with me even once. But then once he was back, he met me and things seemed fine. Somewhere around the 6th month I was really yo-yoing between what I was experiencing and how I wanted things to be, and was this close to calling things off. And surprisingly that’s when he proposed. So I thought it must be me who was over-thinking or that I did not know how men think. But now in hindsight, I wonder if I should have made him work harder for my ‘yes’, because at least that way I could just move ahead or move on. I am not really sure I understand things in here.
Julie
on 24/12/2016 at 7:10 am
Sorry, there was a typo above:
Meant to say:he hasn’t shown a genuine desire to fully know me and doesn’t talk about deeper stuff). Our conversations resemble more like us being buddy friends.
Nickster
on 24/12/2016 at 12:55 pm
Julie,
This sounds very confusing. I’m looking forward to natalie’s response to this.
In the meantime, here’s my take on it.
I would say, let’s imagine this guy hadn’t proposed, take that
red herring out of the equation, and then judge where you are both at.
Because, quite frankly, proposing to someone to whom you only speak around once a week, and see every couple of months, is completely inappropriate and ridiculous. Have you read any of Natalie’s posts on letting relationships develop and unfold? They are really useful in understanding that, when it comes to real intimacy and relationships that work, it has nothing to do with what is said (ie engagements, proposals, promises) and everything to do with what is done. Because sadly talk is cheap.
I think many of us take something as huge as a proposal or, say, someone expressing a wish to live with us, as a huge indicator of commitment, because it WOULD be if we did it. But other people don’t feel how we feel, they have different standards and behaviour patterns. You could marry someone like this, you could have kids with them, but you’d be no closer to having a genuine relationship with them, and I think many BR readers could testify to this fact.
An example from my own life. My ex EUM (my epiphany EUM) expressed a desire to live with me. Thankfully my spider sense told me that his withdrawing behaviour and gaslighting would continue, regardless of whether i lived with him and indeed would have got even worse because I’d be ‘trapped’. And so, even though I wanted nothing more than to get close to him, and to be with him, I did not progress this option. Something in me would not let it happen.
And THANK GOD I didn’t because I might have ended up playing that push me pull you game for all eternity. As it was, I faced what he was showing me he was, understood that he didn’t actually want intimacy, (for his own reasons, which are his business, no judgement) and that if I did, I was looking for it in the wrong place.
So I then nurtured myself to the point where I could detach from him, end things, and go no contact. Even though it broke my heart, and is probably the hardest thing I have ever done, it was hands down the most wonderful gift I could have ever given myself. I basically gave myself the gift of love, by refusing to accept anything that wasn’t love.
As a side note and to give hope, I then continued to nurture myself, got some therapy, understood my patterns and, when I felt ready to get back out there, I met the most wonderful guy, and we have now been together for three years, living together for two years, are fully committed and overjoyed to have found each other!
In comparison to all my other relationships, meeting someone when i was ready and available meant that it was just …well…easy! No second guessing, no constantly checking my phone. No worrying that he’d withdraw for a week if I said the wrong thing. He wanted to commit, I wanted to commit, we were a bit older (late thirties) so we knew a good thing when we saw it. We progressed things gradually but consistently, and continue to grow closer, deepen out intimacy and have a great deal of fun and joy. We will get married, it’s in our plans, but to my mind, marriage is not a destination in a relationship, but a way of displaying to yourselves and the world what has already been achieved between you. It’s certainly not a magic bean that can turn an unworkable relationship into a workable one – hence the high divorce rate.
Thing is, it must be so hard and confusing for you, because God, how many of us would have longed for our EUMs to propose? And how hard is it then to work out that a proposal and intimacy are not the same thing? It’s a head f*** and a half.
All you can do is keep listening to yourself. You want love and joy and intimacy and nurture and care with another open, available human being. That is a wonderful thing to want. Does your experience tell you that this guy can offer than? If no, then you might have to accept that while you can continue to choose him, but that also means choosing NO intimacy, no growing together, no real journey.
Personally, I find it helpful to think like this – it is ALL in your power, as long as you see things for what they really are. That way, you can keep choosing him, but you’re doing it with your eyes open. And that’s okay. You can keep choosing him, until you decide you’d rather choose something else.
Wishing you and Natalie and all the BR readers a wonderful Xmas. Let’s all give ourselves the love and nurturing we deserve. Once we give it to ourselves, and set that standard, it’s amazing how we then just don’t feel like accepting anything less. xxxx
Julie
on 25/12/2016 at 11:35 am
Nickster, I appreciate your wonderful insights and journey in here ! I am so very glad that you met your wonderful guy and are in a fabulous relationship now. If he hadn’t proposed, I would have noticed the lack of intimacy. You hit the nail on the head !
In my case, this was a relationship I entered in, post really taking the time to address my emotional unavailability, and getting clear on what I wanted. So during times of ambivalence in terms of his interest, it was hard for me to know if it was me who was being unrealistic or him who was more wishy-washy. Sadly it took me time for me to see things more clearly.
Post him proposing to me, he really started being more consistent in his affection, spending regular time with me, and things were progressing at a steady and comfortable pace for about 3 months. Post that, I initiated more of our contact together and he was fine with it. While he lacks a certain self-awareness, he is absolutely honest and I do know reliably that he’s fully faithful to me.
He did have one long-term relationship with another EUF (lol) over 5 years, that certainly shattered him. But I do have to take responsibility for the fact that I did not realize our lack of emotional intimacy, until more recently (maybe I too am learning that I have needs that are valid). his parents are very loving and genuinely like me, I like them too. and that’s when I realized I do not feel the same sense of being fully understood and accepted, when I spend time with him.
I like what you said about things progressing at a steady level with your relationship. You are way more evolved than I am at the moment. In a nutshell, I did not practice high esteem when dating or else I would have either made him make me a priority before I said yes Or just disconnected completely.
Right now there are no easy answers in terms of break up or not. I do not want to marry him at the moment but before I can decide to break up for sure, I need to be sure that I am not taking this decision impulsively. For now, I have told him I don’t want any more presents and considering to slowly start disconnecting from him, as I start focusing more deeply on my needs. But yes, things are still quite confusing and having people like you giving me your insights is incredibly valuable to me.
Lauren
on 25/12/2016 at 2:12 am
Nickster noted that ‘a proposal and intimacy are not the same thing’. But why does a guy propose if he does NOT want intimacy?
kookie
on 25/12/2016 at 4:11 am
lauren,
because really wanting something is not the same as doing it or even being capable of it. i really want to be fluent in Portuguese but that aint gonna happen til i get my ass firmly grounded in a language course and stick to it, no matter how much i want it.
proposing when you haven’t done the work to be capable of true intimacy is like if i decided to sod my Portuguese lessons and just take a Portuguese lover in the hope that somehow the language will be sexually and pillow talk transmitted into my brain.
Julie
on 25/12/2016 at 11:41 am
Lauren, I didn’t realise it myself until nickster put things clearly in black and white.
@ kookie, you are right. I do not think he realizes that marriage involves so much more than a boyfriend, girlfriend playing house together.
Julie
on 25/12/2016 at 11:44 am
And yes Nickster, a Merry Christmas to you too. I liked what you said about raising our standards of the love and affection we deserve.
Regardless of how things turn out, I do want to reach out and wish all our BR readers, Natalie, a joyful, wonderful Christmas wherein we take the time to cherish ourselves as well as the things that are going right in our lives right now. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all !! A New Year and a new fabulous version of You is right around the corner :-).
Silvercloud
on 20/01/2017 at 1:51 am
Even though I’m only on podcast 14, I will catch up. I wanted to comment on a more recent one to express how astounded I am at how much I have gained from the first 14.
I tend to be a slow learner.
I just finished the podcast on conflict and realized I’ve been going at it all wrong. I thought I was being assertive when I was being aggressive.
I feel saddened I have not handled myself more mindfully (even to commenters here), but I am determined to do better.
So much of what I have learned here is coming together and makes wonderful sense in accompaniment with the podcasts. I will keep my social media diet in favor of BR podcast brain nutrition. I’ve been going about things so wrongly, but I am super excited someone is willing to spend hours explaining how to fix it.
Also, I have a drawer of all my cherished books, the ones that have made me me and helped me through the most painful of times and two resting in their oak paradise are Mr Unavailble and the Fallback Girl and Love, Care, Trust, & Respect.
I’ve been running Baggage Reclaim since September 2005, and I’ve spent many thousands of hours writing this labour of love. The site has been ad-free the entire time, and it costs hundreds of pounds a month to run it on my own. If what I share here has helped you and you’re in a position to do so, I would love if you could make a donation. Your support is so very much appreciated! Thank you.
Copyright Natalie Lue 2005-2025, All rights reserved. Written and express permission along with credit is needed to reproduce and distribute excerpts or entire pieces of my work.
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Hi Natalie, I really like your blogs for their amazing content. I also have to admit that I have been an emotionally unavailable person and it helped me to get some distance as well as concentrate more on self improvement. However I am not sure if in this era of online dating if meeting a relationship-minded partner will be free of its share of heartaches, no matter how much one keeps evolving. If it’s okay, I have a major concern and want your opinion on this.
I thought that I had met a guy with whom things finally clicked over a period of time. I liked that he had his hobbies, his friends, his work and also that he seemed to be attentive, honest and the genuine deal. There were times during which he withdrew but then each time we talked or met in person, I felt a renewed connection. He eventually expressed his desire to marry me, although I felt that we could have talked more to get to know each other, I agreed to make us official because I really liked him.
But I see now in one year that nothing has changed. He’s still same old Mr Unavailable. I feel more like an option, than a priority with him (he likes spending more time with his friends, doesn’t miss talking to me much, our conversations are more of superficial stuff) and somehow that’s making me want to disconnect from him. We stay in separate places and he wants to do all the ‘right things’ like considering buying a home, wants to fix a marriage date, he brings me gifts, we did get engaged, know each other’s friends, his family is fine (no red flags I could see), and yet I do not feel like he’s fully emotionally committed. He holds himself at a distance (calls once a week, meet maybe once in 2 months, doesn’t share his feelings, has shown a genuine desire to fully know me, talk about deeper stuff, anytime I have a sense of intimacy building – in that he shares something significant from his life, he withdraws emotionally and physically for days). Am not comfortable setting any marriage dates until I can understand what is really happening in here. I see him more of as a bachelor than someone who really understands what marriage involves. It is so painful because I really don’t know how to handle this hidden ambivalence in him (he doesn’t seem to register this), and it’s painful (if I take my space, he will come pursuing, but I know post a few calls he will go right back to his old self). Why can’t he fully make up his mind, just either fully connect or break-up in entirety? I wish I had not agreed to become engaged and involved our families in this. What’s the right way to handle this?
Thanks for reading. I hope you are doing well too and if you need time to respond to this, that’s fine too.
Julie, do you really only see him once every two months? That’s not very much time, especially over only a year. It’s not enough time to get to know someone on any level, let alone be in a serious relationship together. Trust your gut–it’s telling you the right thing about this guy.
Hi Crystal. I guess I made the mistake of thinking that if I am incredibly interested in him and having difficulty in expressing myself well, maybe he must be in the same boat. It’s weird how our feelings despite our best of intentions can throw us off.
For example, somewhere around the 3rd month of us dating each other I was wondering how come he was off on a 10-day vacation with family and didn’t feel the need to connect with me even once. But then once he was back, he met me and things seemed fine. Somewhere around the 6th month I was really yo-yoing between what I was experiencing and how I wanted things to be, and was this close to calling things off. And surprisingly that’s when he proposed. So I thought it must be me who was over-thinking or that I did not know how men think. But now in hindsight, I wonder if I should have made him work harder for my ‘yes’, because at least that way I could just move ahead or move on. I am not really sure I understand things in here.
Sorry, there was a typo above:
Meant to say:he hasn’t shown a genuine desire to fully know me and doesn’t talk about deeper stuff). Our conversations resemble more like us being buddy friends.
Julie,
This sounds very confusing. I’m looking forward to natalie’s response to this.
In the meantime, here’s my take on it.
I would say, let’s imagine this guy hadn’t proposed, take that
red herring out of the equation, and then judge where you are both at.
Because, quite frankly, proposing to someone to whom you only speak around once a week, and see every couple of months, is completely inappropriate and ridiculous. Have you read any of Natalie’s posts on letting relationships develop and unfold? They are really useful in understanding that, when it comes to real intimacy and relationships that work, it has nothing to do with what is said (ie engagements, proposals, promises) and everything to do with what is done. Because sadly talk is cheap.
I think many of us take something as huge as a proposal or, say, someone expressing a wish to live with us, as a huge indicator of commitment, because it WOULD be if we did it. But other people don’t feel how we feel, they have different standards and behaviour patterns. You could marry someone like this, you could have kids with them, but you’d be no closer to having a genuine relationship with them, and I think many BR readers could testify to this fact.
An example from my own life. My ex EUM (my epiphany EUM) expressed a desire to live with me. Thankfully my spider sense told me that his withdrawing behaviour and gaslighting would continue, regardless of whether i lived with him and indeed would have got even worse because I’d be ‘trapped’. And so, even though I wanted nothing more than to get close to him, and to be with him, I did not progress this option. Something in me would not let it happen.
And THANK GOD I didn’t because I might have ended up playing that push me pull you game for all eternity. As it was, I faced what he was showing me he was, understood that he didn’t actually want intimacy, (for his own reasons, which are his business, no judgement) and that if I did, I was looking for it in the wrong place.
So I then nurtured myself to the point where I could detach from him, end things, and go no contact. Even though it broke my heart, and is probably the hardest thing I have ever done, it was hands down the most wonderful gift I could have ever given myself. I basically gave myself the gift of love, by refusing to accept anything that wasn’t love.
As a side note and to give hope, I then continued to nurture myself, got some therapy, understood my patterns and, when I felt ready to get back out there, I met the most wonderful guy, and we have now been together for three years, living together for two years, are fully committed and overjoyed to have found each other!
In comparison to all my other relationships, meeting someone when i was ready and available meant that it was just …well…easy! No second guessing, no constantly checking my phone. No worrying that he’d withdraw for a week if I said the wrong thing. He wanted to commit, I wanted to commit, we were a bit older (late thirties) so we knew a good thing when we saw it. We progressed things gradually but consistently, and continue to grow closer, deepen out intimacy and have a great deal of fun and joy. We will get married, it’s in our plans, but to my mind, marriage is not a destination in a relationship, but a way of displaying to yourselves and the world what has already been achieved between you. It’s certainly not a magic bean that can turn an unworkable relationship into a workable one – hence the high divorce rate.
Thing is, it must be so hard and confusing for you, because God, how many of us would have longed for our EUMs to propose? And how hard is it then to work out that a proposal and intimacy are not the same thing? It’s a head f*** and a half.
All you can do is keep listening to yourself. You want love and joy and intimacy and nurture and care with another open, available human being. That is a wonderful thing to want. Does your experience tell you that this guy can offer than? If no, then you might have to accept that while you can continue to choose him, but that also means choosing NO intimacy, no growing together, no real journey.
Personally, I find it helpful to think like this – it is ALL in your power, as long as you see things for what they really are. That way, you can keep choosing him, but you’re doing it with your eyes open. And that’s okay. You can keep choosing him, until you decide you’d rather choose something else.
Wishing you and Natalie and all the BR readers a wonderful Xmas. Let’s all give ourselves the love and nurturing we deserve. Once we give it to ourselves, and set that standard, it’s amazing how we then just don’t feel like accepting anything less. xxxx
Nickster, I appreciate your wonderful insights and journey in here ! I am so very glad that you met your wonderful guy and are in a fabulous relationship now. If he hadn’t proposed, I would have noticed the lack of intimacy. You hit the nail on the head !
In my case, this was a relationship I entered in, post really taking the time to address my emotional unavailability, and getting clear on what I wanted. So during times of ambivalence in terms of his interest, it was hard for me to know if it was me who was being unrealistic or him who was more wishy-washy. Sadly it took me time for me to see things more clearly.
Post him proposing to me, he really started being more consistent in his affection, spending regular time with me, and things were progressing at a steady and comfortable pace for about 3 months. Post that, I initiated more of our contact together and he was fine with it. While he lacks a certain self-awareness, he is absolutely honest and I do know reliably that he’s fully faithful to me.
He did have one long-term relationship with another EUF (lol) over 5 years, that certainly shattered him. But I do have to take responsibility for the fact that I did not realize our lack of emotional intimacy, until more recently (maybe I too am learning that I have needs that are valid). his parents are very loving and genuinely like me, I like them too. and that’s when I realized I do not feel the same sense of being fully understood and accepted, when I spend time with him.
I like what you said about things progressing at a steady level with your relationship. You are way more evolved than I am at the moment. In a nutshell, I did not practice high esteem when dating or else I would have either made him make me a priority before I said yes Or just disconnected completely.
Right now there are no easy answers in terms of break up or not. I do not want to marry him at the moment but before I can decide to break up for sure, I need to be sure that I am not taking this decision impulsively. For now, I have told him I don’t want any more presents and considering to slowly start disconnecting from him, as I start focusing more deeply on my needs. But yes, things are still quite confusing and having people like you giving me your insights is incredibly valuable to me.
Nickster noted that ‘a proposal and intimacy are not the same thing’. But why does a guy propose if he does NOT want intimacy?
lauren,
because really wanting something is not the same as doing it or even being capable of it. i really want to be fluent in Portuguese but that aint gonna happen til i get my ass firmly grounded in a language course and stick to it, no matter how much i want it.
proposing when you haven’t done the work to be capable of true intimacy is like if i decided to sod my Portuguese lessons and just take a Portuguese lover in the hope that somehow the language will be sexually and pillow talk transmitted into my brain.
Lauren, I didn’t realise it myself until nickster put things clearly in black and white.
@ kookie, you are right. I do not think he realizes that marriage involves so much more than a boyfriend, girlfriend playing house together.
And yes Nickster, a Merry Christmas to you too. I liked what you said about raising our standards of the love and affection we deserve.
Regardless of how things turn out, I do want to reach out and wish all our BR readers, Natalie, a joyful, wonderful Christmas wherein we take the time to cherish ourselves as well as the things that are going right in our lives right now. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all !! A New Year and a new fabulous version of You is right around the corner :-).
Even though I’m only on podcast 14, I will catch up. I wanted to comment on a more recent one to express how astounded I am at how much I have gained from the first 14.
I tend to be a slow learner.
I just finished the podcast on conflict and realized I’ve been going at it all wrong. I thought I was being assertive when I was being aggressive.
I feel saddened I have not handled myself more mindfully (even to commenters here), but I am determined to do better.
So much of what I have learned here is coming together and makes wonderful sense in accompaniment with the podcasts. I will keep my social media diet in favor of BR podcast brain nutrition. I’ve been going about things so wrongly, but I am super excited someone is willing to spend hours explaining how to fix it.
Also, I have a drawer of all my cherished books, the ones that have made me me and helped me through the most painful of times and two resting in their oak paradise are Mr Unavailble and the Fallback Girl and Love, Care, Trust, & Respect.