The trouble with lying and deceiving is that aside from putting forward a deliberately false statement and seeking to gain an advantage or to avoid something undesirable, is that the people who habitually lie and cheat are often supported by people who have faith in them and may even fight their corner.
When lying and cheating is uncovered, it’s devastating to the trusting believers because they’ve based their own version of reality on the lies and deception. They’ve interacted with these people and said, been and done certain things that by supporting these people, has actually helped them to gain further advantage.
Lies and deception give power while aggressively and passive aggressively robbing power from others. It’s like holding all or a lot of the cards and being privy to knowledge that the other parties aren’t. Like when you’re involved with someone who knows that they don’t want a relationship and that they don’t see you ‘like that’ but they say and do other things in order to keep you in their back pocket for rainy day entertainment and to pass time with. They’re not honest and upfront because they know that if they were, you would (hopefully – you’d be surprised how many take this as challenge) tell them to take a run and jump.
When people lie and cheat, they remove your right of reply to the truth as it stands.
As I said to the Mr Unavailable who gave me my epiphany, “You had no right to decide that this was a scenario that I would be OK with.” We have a right to input. He could have told me the truth and I could in turn have chosen to proceed or back away but at least the choice would have been mine. Instead he veered between Future Faking or disappearing from time to time to take the heat off.
This doesn’t remove my own responsibility to assess the situation (it turns out it didn’t need a rocket scientist to work out what was going on) but there is a major issue around ‘obtaining goods by deception’ – when a person is running rings around you by blowing hot and cold, contradicting their actions and words, chasing you down when you call a spade a spade, and making out like you have them pegged wrong when you don’t, you start to get confused about what’s ‘up’ and ‘down’.
Uncovering lies and deception is like having to manage your own mind f*ckery. You end up ‘playing back the tapes’ and going over every word. It might feel like your eyes, ears and mind were deceiving you. You might have defended them. You might have listened to them vehemently deny what was actually true. You might have been called a “psychotic bitch” (yep that happened to me) and you might never have suspected them of what they’ve been saying and doing. When you play things back, certain things start to make sense, you recognise the signs of the deception, and various conversations get dismantled. What was real? What was fake?
There are those of us who get blindsided, and there are those of us who get wounded while effectively participating in the deception. I’ve talked about this before in my post about how affairs are like being double-crossed on a heist. When it turns out that the deal is not the deal (our cut is not what we thought it was) or that they pretended that the deal was on and are claiming it’s off or delayed, but not because they’re liars and cheaters, but because, get this, we did something to put them off coming through. Yeah. Smooth.
This is when we discover that the same person who would cheat to be with us or to screw someone else over, will also cheat to keep us exactly where they want us.
Over the years of writing Baggage Reclaim, I’ve come across an astounding number of people who have known that they’re involved/dealing with someone who has a casual relationship with honesty – they don’t want to get all serious and be honest all of the time….
Why were / are they involved? Because they all believed that their love and faith in them will cause this person to make them the exception. In some ways you can kinda see the logic.
Look, I know that you’re not telling the truth to this person and that person or in certain situations but because I’m with you anyway and I’m choosing to see the best in you because I love you and am extending my care, trust, and respect to you, I expect that you won’t need to lie to me.
We also have a habit of believing that it’s the situation that makes the person lie and deceive – they’re made dishonest by circumstance. And right there you tap into a hidden belief that it’s OK to lie and deceive in certain circumstances, especially if love is involved. We start to make exceptions to our own morals.
Strangely enough, in spite of knowing that we’re with someone who lies and deceives, we’re often surprised when we discover that, yep, they’ve been lying to and deceiving us.
There’s no such thing as a honest cheat. That’s an oxymoron like ‘casual relationship’.
When people lie and deceive they share information on a need-to-know basis. They might dripfeed the truth (which is confusing because you think that the ‘drip’ is all of the truth and then further down the line you realise it’s drip, drip, drip), or they aggressively deny and clobber anyone or anything that pierces the carefully constructed illusions around their convoluted framework of truth and then they might ‘confess’ when their back’s against the wall (often when the pool of faith is drying up) although the confession in itself might be a ‘drip’.
That’s the problem with lying and deceiving – once it’s been allowed to continue or the person has gotten away with it for a very long time, it’s incredibly difficult to know if after their admission, whether you’re standing in reality with them or are standing on the ‘portion’ of reality that they’ve allowed you to. That’s why the last thing you should do when you sense or know that you’ve been lied to or deceived, is to continue and whitewash it with denying, rationalising and minimising. Sure, how does someone who has told a whole load of lies and deceived even know that they’re telling themselves the truth? You believed them when they were lying; now you’re supposed to believe them when they say it’s the truth. Those who lie and deceive can end up lonely with only their illusions to keep them warm at night, especially when the faithful harem of supporters dry up.
When someone habitually lies and cheats, they’ve all got ‘logical’ reasoning just like we might try to come up with reasons and excuses for why they’ve lied and deceived, often blaming ourselves in the process. Some of them don’t even see it as lies. They’re ‘protecting you for your own good’ or ‘not wanting to hurt you’ with the truth. Actually, lying and deceiving is a form of control and abusive behaviour.
We can spend a lot of time wondering or asking why, especially if we feel like we’ve given them everything so that they wouldn’t ‘need’ to lie or plenty of opportunities to tell the truth, but unless you think and act like they do, their behaviour isn’t going to make sense to you. They had a motivation. It’s like trying to think like a sociopath or narcissist and wondering why they do what they do. Unless you’re inclined in that direction, you’re not going to be able to wrap your head around what they’re doing.
That’s why our relationships need to be mutually fulfilling with us standing with our partners in reality. We need to be sure we’re honest with ourselves so that we’re not tempted to deceive ourselves about others and we can trust our own judgment.
Lies and deception hurt. They hurt those around them who get duped and run over in the process and they hurt you if you participate in the bullshit. Don’t fool yourself – that’s a deception in itself. If you want to live your life authentically, be careful of feeding other people’s BS with your own BS and stick to your own values. It can be hard to face the fact that someone isn’t being truthful with you but continuing to have faith in them doesn’t help you or them.
Our lives are our own statement written over time. When we live a lie, we’re putting out falsehoods and in time we’ll look back and have little substance to hold onto and plenty of regret. It’s better for us to state and live our truth than to spend our time deceiving the hell out of ourselves in order to hold onto people who are deceiving the hell out of us. Stick to a low BS diet. If you live your own truth it’s difficult to live someone else’s incompatible lie.
Your thoughts?
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This post is the truth ! That’s what i needed to read . I was a ow and yes when you do get involved it so quick to justify kicking your morals to curb in the name of supposed love . Yes its the circumstance you believe that you’re the exception . I thought he had to get married to do right thing and i still hung in there convinced he cared and that’s why it continued .i was wrong . Only now after i had a dose of his lies do i properly see and he is all the above . Yes he was unhappy but instead of sorting himself hes overlapped with someone new . Because shes new and believes his bs . Me and the ex wife don’t . He fed new women bullshit from beginning about me she just does t know it but eventually shell learn . This post is everything ive learned in last year . A very painful lesson but one i needed to learn 🙂
Natalie,
Bravo! I’m so glad to see you use the disorder as an example! (I know, I know..), but this is one of their machinations. THIS is what I hope for when those who educate about relationships, or assclowns, spell out in clear terms!
With empathy, it’s hard to understand those who don’t have it. It’s simple, but they want us to keep it twisted so that we second guess their behavior. No matter what, a sociopath, psychopath or narcissist will take what any of us would consider shady behavior (an affair for example) and try to twist the situation so that we learn to silence an inner voice that we have and that they do not, making it something ‘acceptable’ under the guise of love, something we can do. Something they cannot. LOVE this.
I’m so happy to see this!
I’m with you, K.
Wrapping your normal, empathic, human mind around what psychopathy is, and what it does, and what it means, is a difficult and important task for those women who’ve been emotionally damaged by such men. (And men/women, vice versa, though female psychopaths are extremely rare)
Sometimes lying is not just lying (yeah yeah yeah, hungry dog + homework), but an indicator of something else entirely. When they lying is pathological and creates situations where the liar gets to cause and witness unconscionable hurt and damage being done to other people, it’s one of the grandest and most familiar manifests of the disorder. Normal people suffer overwhelming cognitive dissonance (think deep-seated confusion and mental trauma) if they experience, and then try to understand such behaviours without taking into account the untreatable disorder of the person who acted out as they did.
Understanding it, knowing it, and being able to spot it, is the best possible defence. Ignore it at your peril.
Oh Natalie….it’s as is you’ve looked inside my soul and written the words I could not find on my own. Thank you. You will never know the extent of healing your thoughts and words have brought me. I am eternally grateful.
Natalie,
It’s as if you have stepped inside my soul and pulled out a painful piece of my life. Your words have helped to heal my shattered heart… I am eternally grateful. Thank you so very much.
they have no empthay it is all about them and what they want . the half truths because they are to cowardly as nat says “if they were honest youd choose to walk ” .he even couldnt admit he was seeing her .i sat in the new girlfriends car and and he still coulndt admit it was hers .talking about popping round to see me ,do you think he told her he was still friends with me .evil evil shady arsehole .god help her
Tired,
Crap! You had enough info! He is married!!!! I just don’t understand why the OW are so offended when the MM brings in another GF, when he was clearly unavailable in the first place.
The man has always been deceitful and shady, most especially to his family!
Tired I’m so glad you’ve woken up to all this.
Cheating men do not value relationships at all — not their marriages and not relationships of any other kind. To a dyed-in-the-wool cheater, his marriage is nothing more than a ‘safe base’ and a cover from which he can operate with other women while keeping someone around who’ll wash and fold his underpants… oh and raise his kids while she’s at it.
This is why, in so many ways, when he’s lavishing days, weeks and months ‘preparing the ground’ for his sexual target to have an affair with him, this is not where the lies always are. It’s not as if everything lamentable he is saying about his ‘situation’ is a lie. Paradoxically, one way or the other you’re hearing a lot of truths about how awful things are for him (neglecting to convey of course they they are awful of his own making). He tells you how much he respects and admires you. But he really IS acting disrespectful and distainful of his relationship. He tells you how he can’t live without you and how you’re meant to be together. Yet his actions show he really DOESN’T value the relationship he is already in. He declares how much you mean to him and how head over heels utterly in love with you he is. Yet his actions show he really DOESN’T care how he damages anyone.
And THAT, my friend, is the real red flag. The red flag is not the wedding band. The red flag is the behaviour. See how he devalues his marriage/relationship, how little empathy he has, and how much everything is all about him and what he wants to satisfy Mr Unsatisfied? Past behaviour = future behaviour. OWs can expect the exact same treatment in the fullness of time.
What makes my head spin with irony is how our patriarchal society still refers to serially cheating men as ‘great lovers of women’. Apparently, so we’re told, they love women so much they just can’t keep their hands off all of ’em. **snort** excuse me… Never mind the words, what is their behaviour? It’s hateful.
Grizelda,
You pretty much described what happened to me verbatim. I’m new to all this. I just wanted to ask you… if you can tell me.. why he (they) would do it?
Thank you Natalie and everyone.
Red Flag, you ask the universal question that we’ve all asked on here. Why do they behave as they do?
Just speaking specifically about cheating liars and lying cheaters — the serial ones — the behaviour is deep-seated and an intrinsic part of the personality.
They see themselves as ultra-special people who aren’t beholden to the rules and norms of regular folk. They are grandiose and arrogant, with highly unrealistic views about their importance no matter what their professional/social rank really is. Beware, they tend to cloak these views in words of false humility and positions that allow them the ‘moral high ground’ so that their motives are hidden and they appear to be above suspicion. They constantly feel they deserve more than what they have, and certainly more than what all ‘regulars’ have. And without functioning empathy (no guilt, no remorse no feelings for others, extremely shallow base emotions), there’s no barrier to them acting out in whatever way they want to act out. And they genuinely have nothing but derision and mockery for their wives/GFs or other concerned relatives/friends who voice concern or anger over their behaviour. Why? Because they’re ultra-special you see, and ‘regulars’ are only jealous and vindictive towards the special ones.
I say this because again and again when faced with the consequences of their behaviour (ie a string of broken women in their wake, random fathering of children all over the place, STDs, wives kicking them out, being fired, dodging lawsuits, and just generally eventually alienating everyone they’ve ever encountered), there is nothing in any of those results that makes them want to change. Nothing. They just keep behaving how they’re programmed to behave, crashing from one woman to the next and one crisis to the next, because their lives are all about using people.
I don’t know what this means for your own situation, Red Flag. But I think it helps if you try to lock up your natural empathy for a minute, step back, get out the old magnifying glass, and look Sherlock Holmes critically at his behaviour. Follow the footsteps. Map the activity. See the patterns. They all form patterns.
Grizelda,
I don’t know if you have a PHD in psychology?…but you are spot on…brilliant stuff actually. I’m very grateful to you. Grateful for Natalie and everyone else that has posted. In my case I trusted a married Chaplain with the loss of my parents,seeking advice. I didn’t see the manipulation coming, it really blindsided me. The only good of the 4 month emotional affair is that it never was physical. It’s been just a back and forth with should we, shouldn’t we. I just caught him “cheating” on me…by accidentally sending me a text that was meant for another woman, then explaining it away. I can’t be certain but the pattern is there. I softly ended things. But what do I really need to say? I’ve actually ended several times but I let him manipulate me back. But, I also wanted to lean on him, since now I have no one. Thanks again so much. Truly grateful.
Red Flag – PLEASE stay away from him. I believe he’s the AC of the worst kind!! A man in a position of trust and to take advantage of you at a low, vulnerable point. Please stay away or he’s going to wound you deeper than you already are from your terrible loss!!
I know – did it first hand when I lost my mother. Turn to those (friends, ANYONE other than him) for comfort!! You are in my prayers!!
AHM,
Thank you for your kind words. I’m sorry for the loss of your Mother. You are in my prayers as well.
I promise to stay away. Thank you.
Gosh Red Flag, and I said the thing about them so often positioning themselves on the ‘moral high ground’ — your clergyman is actually, sadly, fairly typical of what these kinds of men will do with their lives in order to find that base from which they can operate. See the pattern. Learn the pattern. The personality and its inherent behaviours are permanent and pervasive. He always acts according to his nature — that comes first, that comes foremost. The vocation, meh, it’s just a job. It’s a brilliant disguise, but it’s just a job. It’s just what he does with his time in order to facilitate Job Number One, which is the luring of empathic women by the bucketload to toy with and then destroy each and every one of them. The man isn’t a lover of women. He’s a hater of women. Look how he acts.
You’re very lucky things didn’t get any deeper or last any longer. Because that mixed up text he accidentally sent you is the microscopic crystal on the tiny little arm of the tiny little snowflake perched at the very peak of the 20 ft iceberg of his bad behaviour… that has 200 more feet of it under the waterline that you can’t see. The man is pathological. The only way to save yourself is to cut him out of your life forever.
Grizelda,
Like Natalie- You should write a book, no joke. What you are giving is a path out of hell.
Griselda
That exactly describes the MM I Was involved with, the grandiosity and thinly disguised contempt he felt for everyone around him. Also the air of moral superiority…he was such a gentle, loving guy…he once told me he never felt anger. Truth is I don’t think he felt anything at all. He did often say he felt “numb” about this or that (eg his wife chucking him out).
I could give you a bookload of quotes to illustrate what I mean.
The point is though what on earth I thought I was doing, why did I put him on a pedestal and participate this situation which caused nothing but harm to myself, my family and his? Why did I allow this to go on so long when it wasn’t even making me happy? I understand other people’s issues about abandonment and perhaps there’s some element of that, but some of it has to have been just plain silliness, gullibility (really did think for a while he was a higher kind of being) and poor values.
Mymble you make an important connection, particularly in relation to this post and these comments.
You feel foolish for falling for the lies, the bad behaviour, the described (and clearly evident!) lack of feeling, lack of empathy, the emotional numbness. Don’t! How could you possibly have known what you had on your hands — someone who is virtually another species altogether from what you and I are mentally and emotionally. That’s the only way I can describe it.
Imagine having no feelings about anything whatsoever. I don’t mean depression, which is what empaths associate with ‘feeling dull/low/clouded’. No, I mean feelings are removed entirely from the equation. Example. Profoundly blind people don’t see blackness in their eyes, like their eyelids are closed, which is what sighted people imagine that blind people, er, ‘see’ — blind people see ‘no information coming through’. It’s a nothingness. Sight doesn’t exist as a sensation. In people who have no feelings, no information of that sort comes through. It’s all nothingness. Their internal emotional landscape is pretty much the same as for a shop window mannequin. The ’emotional’ words they say, and the ’emotional’ faces they make, are largely habituated mimicry. They learned them in childhood and adolescence because they brought rewards from parents, teachers, and other people who were in a position to give them something they wanted. But they are the quintessential empty vessels that Natalie has told us about.
Remember a few years ago ’emotional intelligence’ and self-tests for that sort of thing were really big pop-psych buzzwords? Yes those are valuable and interesting tools for self-reflection, but I think it’s wrong to present the results on a scale. That suggests that everyone at the low end are ’emotionally unintelligent’ — which infers that if they could only learn how to be more emotionally intelligent, they’d be better human beings and have more enjoyable lives. Which is complete and utter balls when you’re talking about the people who are without emotion — the people for whom feelings (other than quick-fire prehistoric proto-emotions like rage, victory/exultation, boredom, spite, vanity, contempt and vexation), do not exist. It’s like explaining to a profoundly blind person exactly what their condition is, and what they’re missing out on by being without sight, and how much you want them to have sight, and then expecting them to ‘learn’ to gain vision and work to improve it, now that they ‘understand’ what vision is.
Coming back to you, you participated in the situation because you presumed, as we all would in your place, that he was like you. You read his behaviour as an empath would — that he was a bit troubled or uncertain or ‘low key’ or ‘too manly’ for emotional stuff. You believed it was all in there somewhere, just a bit stifled and cloudy and lost and what he needed was someone to love him — gosh, there goes ANOTHER gush of empathy towards poor little him! This is how it happens. You were supplying him with gigawatts of pure white electric emotion expecting that it keeps him ‘lit’, when in fact he had no wiring in him at all. He never did. The being ‘lit up’ that you saw in the early stages was just for show. Because why? Because it’s habituated mimicry that got him something he wanted. Until he spuriously decided he didn’t want it any more, then came the heart-stoppingly callous ‘ok bye I’m done’ we all know about too well.
No way should you feel silly or gullible for your part in it. HOW could you have possibly KNOWN? Yes, your confusion and attachment only served to hurt you further, but come on — take it easy on yourself. Everyone thinks Voldemort is a fictional character…
Wow Grizelda, you described my situation to a T. Of course, Natalie has as well. This is a very timely post for me and the comments are very helpful. “The red flag is the behavior.” I’m not sure if there could be a redder flag that a MM?
I knew the second I saw the title that this post was going down as one of the best of the best!
YES, Lies and deception hurt. Especially when you are are on the receiving end of them. In my own little fantasy world I truly believed with all my heart that the AC would never want, nor was capable of, hurting me in the ways he did. I trusted in us, in him, and paid a very high price. Yes, there were some red flags along the path but I didnt know what they meant and pushed them into the back of my mind thinking if I ignored them maybe they would go away. It doesnt work that way with AC’s. Its in there blood & they will do it to whoever enters there path sooner or later. Thank you Nat from the bottom of my heart for your wisdom & guidance, its priceless…
I hear you Kit-Kat. I had reasons to doubt his commitment, and gave him plenty of opportunities to opt out. Still, I was absolutely positively sure that he would never, ever, ever cheat on me or anyone. I was naive. There are liars, and then there are people who are downright duplicitous.
I wised up when I caught him bed with some skank. The story he was telling anyone who would listen was that I “merely caught them in bed naked together” and I was seriously jumping to conclusions if that make me think anything had gone on. Imagine, a grown man trying to sell that crap? It’s lying and denial to pathological extremes.
Heck….all I ever wanted from the guy was some honesty/dignity/integrity. You just ain’t gonna ever get it from these jerks.
No more, surely you’ve misjudged this guy. You know how we all have naked time in bed with members of the opposite sex we aren’t actually boning? Come on, everyone does it! It’s so…normal. And not at all awkward. I like to have meetings with my boss like this. Wait, what? Actually it’s not normal, and the implication by it’s very suggestion that you would buy this fantasy is rage-inducing bullshit.
Where is the line in the sand with these guys? All over the fucking place because it’s redrawn to accommodate whatever heinous fuckery they are up to there and then. What would have his response been if you had actually caught him P in V? He wasn’t cheating because a condom separated their genitalia actually making contact? Or if there was no condom (likely with these guys) he could have gone for the ‘no fault of mine’ approach and looked at the other woman in shock then back at you screeching “I thought it was you! ZOMG MY EYES! No time for scenes now ladies, get out of my way, I’m off to the optometrist.”?
I don’t know why he even bothered trying to sell that shit to anyone else, when it’s clear absolutely no one would buy that. These are your amateur type assclowns that usually end up with egg on their faces when they try their shitty excuses on non-invested third parties. “If I say it, it makes it true!” No dude, it just removes all doubt that you are a massive douche who can’t even do assclownery right. And everyone knows it but you, apparently.
NoMore: I had reasons to doubt his commitment, and gave him plenty of opportunities to opt out. Still, I was absolutely positively sure that he would never, ever, ever cheat on me or anyone.
This describes me with The Snake. We were best friends; surely he wouldn’t do that to me… boy, was that a bad assumption. *face-palm* Never again with liars and cheaters. Onward & forward.
I finally came to my senses with ex EUM/AC because of his lies, deception and cheating.
“It’s like holding all or a lot of the cards and being privy to knowledge that the other parties aren’t”
I saw the ex about four days or so before his birthday. I couldn’t see him on his birthday partly because he hadn’t invited me to see him and I didn’t want to invite myself to see him.
I asked him a direct question.
What are you doing on your birthday?
His response I will using the day to be creative (to do with his job) he implied he would be alone.
Not long after his birthday I saw him again.
I asked a direct question. What did you do on your birthday?
Oh I went to such and such restaurant and did work in fact I went for lunch and dinner. Again he implied he was alone all day.
He also had a MRI done sometime around this time. I asked him directly was he worried about his results. He replied No he was sure he was okay. I aksed him more than once how he was holding up he always answered he was okay etc.
Not long after he called me. He told me the truth on his birthday he had arranged a date and went back to his house and had sex with the woman. He then said the day before his MRI results were due again he had sex with this woman.
That should have been all I needed to know he fed me bullshit about hating his age and using that for his excuse and the second he said how very worried he was about his MRI results.
Now foolish me tried to buy this bullshit and keep things going, but I couldn’t help to keep coming back to the direct questions I asked him about what he had done on his birthday and how he was feeling about his MRI and he chose to lie. He had also been feeding me how good things were between us much better than any other time we had been together.
It still took 3 months to no longer buy his excuses and bullshit he would not admit to doing wrong to lying and he mentioned how he doesn’t lie but drip feeds information.
“You believed them when they were lying. Now you’re supposed to believe them when they say it’s the truth.”
That is also a problem he lied to me and didn’t consider my feelings in any of his actions. Now he wants me to believe his bullshit in the guise of being friends.
He sent me a birthday card, told me in person, told me via phone and email that he thinks I’m a great person blah blah and he doesn’t want to lose our friendship it means a lot to him.
I can’t accept it I think its bullshit why say all this now? He wasn’t thinking our friendship meant anything to him while he was off having sex with somebody else, nor when he was lying to me.
Whenever I find myself thinking it was good what we had without forcing my thoughts they always gravitate back to the what he did and what he must really think about me which isn’t much at all.
“I can’t accept it I think its bullshit why say all this now? He wasn’t thinking our friendship meant anything to him while he was off having sex with somebody else, nor when he was lying to me.”
Amen! Last time I saw the ex AC, he had to get out of bed with someone else to open the door. This was only hours after he had been in my bed! I haven’t spoken to him since this happened last spring but I still receive “friendly” emails occasionally, including a “Happy New Year (FX). I wish you all the best and hope we can be friends.” Seriously?!! The last words he heard from me were “You fucking asshole.” yelled repeatedly at the top of my lungs but now he’s in the mood to hit the reset button and we can be friends?
In one of his emails he also said “I’m scattered now. Nothing is enjoyable without you.” I don’t think he’s capable of empathy or remorse but I think my impenetrable NC and his loss of control over me after he was able to suck me back in repeatedly in the past is a Narcissistic injury.
One of the things that helps with NC is that he once said. “They always come back.” (About women in his life.) Well, this one is well and truly done with the deceit, disrespect and devaluation.
The one I recently flushed turned out to be a liar. He was soooo open about how his ex cheated on him, left him for another man, how thrilled he was when I took my profile down ASAP, how much he distained cheaters…
After over three months of pretty intense stuff, he changed 180 degrees over the course of TWO days. All of a sudden, he was ‘depressed’, didn’t know how he felt about us, wanted a ‘break’. Then I got a flurry of emails telling me how he had gone to a doctor, was diagnosed with severe depression and anxiety, but now he needed ‘space’.
Now my Spidey Sense was up…as a lifelong sufferer of depression I KNOW that in the New York City area you CAN’T get an appointment with a shrink in one day. They DON’T prescribe drugs without a complete evaluation…But I started Florencing, commiserating with his depression, telling him I’d stand by him through the ‘break’, blah, blah, blah, all the while thinking this was a pretty shitty arrangement, but saying nothing.
Checked the on-line sites (on advice of my family), sure enough, he’d been on in the previous two weeks. About the time he emailed me saying I should be his girlfriend. Hmmm…Let’s see…he was too ‘tired’ to spend New Year’s with me, he emailed me New Year’s Eve morning to ask for a ‘break’, then agreed to talk to me about the situation in the afternoon of New Year’s Day, claiming he took a sleeping pill at 6 AM, and that’s why he didn’t answer the phone at 11 AM.
Me reckon the new victim was at his abode. On the 7th, I sent him a “enjoy your break, but I don’t do ‘breaks'” email and never heard one word back.
It’s amazing how someone can feel that lying only applies to ONE part of the couple. He could go on and on about the lies and deception of the ex wife, yet here he was, mucking about with MY feelings. I guess he considers this payback to ‘womenkind’ or some other BS. Glad he’s gone.
Tracy I so hear you! My current AC told me that he was going abroad to celebrate Christmas AND New Year with his nephew! What they think we that stupid or what??? Thanks GOD, we don’t have these losers in our lives:)
Tracy,
they have two different sets of rules and boundaries. One for them, one for you. They set those rules as it suits them, but you are not allowed to have yours. These people are such low creatures, good riddance to him.
I can harldy read this post and will have to put it aside and come back to it. Just broke up with my guy after 6 months and can’t believe how much it hurts. But he lied to me and now I”m the one feeling rejected.
@Dianne,
Just checking how things are going with you. A small reminder, HE’S THE LIAR and now he’s avoiding you ’cause he has no balls to face his own BS. Hang in there!
Dianne, I completely understand —
This is definitely not a post for those who are still picking themselves up off the ground in the middle of the still-burning and smoking wreckage. It’s heavy going.
I could not have read this post last autumn, as it would have been immediately triggering. The volcano would have exploded again, covering my mental landscape in bad ju-ju all over again.
Please do keep finding and reading the safe posts from Natalie, though! They will make you stronger.
Thank you for this. I was getting caught up trying to decipher a so-called friend’s chronic white lies / lies of omission. It’s exhausting trying to figure out what a chronic liar really means. Might as well try to get a PhD in ancient greek. It’s good to be reminded that there is no need for this. If someone in your life demands that you put up with his or her habit of lying, they are not being a good friend. I’ve been trying to figure out why I needed distance from this friend, and you have put it succinctly.
…” Casual relationship with the truth”, oh truer words were never written! Natalie, you continually amaze me by how acurately you nail things down. This was just what I needed to be reminded of. I’m so thankful for these posts, always, but at the beginning of the weekend they are so especially timely.
Yes, I’ve been “drip- fed” the truth, incrementally, by someone who considers himself a model of integrity. Mr. Christian, he paints himself as so very moral and upstanding. He even once told me that he broke up with a girl for lying to him…. not telling the truth is a “deal breaker”. Yet, I caught him in deception. I had been snooping ( admittedly bad behaivor on my part, but why did I feel the need?) and found a folder on his computer in which he’d saved picures and email contacts from women with whom he’d interacted on a dating website. This was during the brief period when we were supposedly in a serious, exclusive dating relationship. After he “changed” that status, over a year ago, he continued to stay in my life- or I should say, I allowed him to- professing that we just needed to “slow down”. Things could change.
Things have indeed changed, as I realize, after many counseling sessions and mimi-ephiphanies, not to mention BR and all the wonderful comments, that this man (? I hesitate to call him that because he still acts like a 12 year old) is totally stuck on PLANET HIM. We do travel in the same social circles, and lately I’ve been dealing with divided loyalty. I don’t want to alienate my friends, who see what an assclown he is and are not happy with his treatment of me; yet, I do feel compassion towards him for having effed up so many aspects of his life. Last week, he was deathly ill with the flu and who was there for him- me, of course. Talk about Florence Nightengale.
The feelings of romance are dying a slow death. I still get confused about NC, feeling like I am cutting him off without explanation and that would be cruel, especially because his head is so far up his a$$ he seems to think I am fine with things as they are. In fairness, I’ve allowed that allusion to continue.
As a Christian, I want to do the most loving thing. Lately, I have thought that loving would mean allowing him to experience the natural consequences of his actions, although he stil doesn’t see himself as having done anything wrong. I really like what Natalie said in this post about how someone could lie and obviously then they must lie to themselves…. or something to that effect. Yes, it’s the whole casual relationship with the truth thing. He has the narc tendencies and is screwed up, but is not overtly evil or malicious. Nonetheless, he has hurt me time and time again. Last night, I had dinner with my best girlfriend and she is just baffled over how to help me, and why I still continue to have any contact with him. She said, she remembers the pain, and I forget and go back. She is left holding the bloody rags. She can’t forgive him for hurting me, and she can’t forget the things he’s done. I’ve tried breaking up and no- contact and he has always managed to either a/ talk me out of it, which isn’t hard or b/ just appear and lure me back. The insights into his character, or lack thereof are helping me to feel a distance although I’ve not initiated no contact. I’ve been invited to a party tomorrow and not him, and have not told him, and many mutual friends will be there, so if I go he will at some point hear about it. It’s like I’m on a train that is headed for a dead- end. will I jump off or ride though the crash? I do feel compassion for him; I am a compassionate person and I care. There are no other friends in his life he can count on as he can me. Of course, that doesn’t stop him from socializing and doing his thing, including me only at his convenience and when there is something in it for him to do so. I hate admitting I am still in the same place but all of you on this site offer such wise and amazing support.
Thank you, Natalie, for sharing your gift of truth with us. You amaze me.
Anyone out there- Grace, Grizelda, Nataysha, anyone else who has responded before- comments appreciated. I don’t want to lose my friends.
xo
Pandora
Pandora,
Have you sought advice from your pastor on this subject?
My knowledge is, is that God wants us to forgive, but I do not believe it states anywhere in the bible that he wants or expects us to stay in a toxic situation.
This man is not your responsibility. Time to let him grow up.
pandora, ask yourself what this man child adds to your life. from your story he just seems like a big pain in the arse.
you also gotta ask yourself that even though he socialises, he has no friends.
i understand you’re a compassionate person and want to do the ‘right’ loving thing. how about you treat yourself with the same compassion and love.
where do you think you’re going with this man? it’s not ‘like’ you’re on a train headed for a dead-end, you ARE headed for it.
seriously, stop this insanity. cut him off. he’s a grown up, he should be able to take care of himself. he’s not your responsibility. cut off contact and go NC. remove yourself from the source of this misery, please!
Just because this guy is not “overtly evil or malicious” doesn’t mean he doesn’t have the power to deeply hurt you. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do for these immature and clueless people is to silently forgive them, try to have compassion for their screwed-up lives (because there is suffering going on there even if they aren’t completely conscious of it) and wish them well. And then get the hell away from them.
Pandora, you know you’ve crossed paths with a psychopath when they fuck you over, and you feel sorry for THEM.
Do Christians have their own saintly flush button that breaks out ‘hallelujah’ when you press it? Honey, let that choir SING.
Haha, Ms. Determined- LOL! That’s really funny. If I didn’t laugh I’d cry. Thanks to all, Determined,SBW, Natashya, Allison-
This is amazing support and of course, your comments are right on. I work with a therapist not a pastor, and I am indeed working on the Holy Flush. Thanks again, God bless you all as you continue in the quest to rid your lives of the ACs! Pandora
Be strong, Pandora – after my time on BR, a lot of mini-epiphanies and going on a no BS diet I flushed my EX of almost 5 yrs with without remorse – yes, a moral, full of integrity (and shit) one – it’s douable – Choose yourself !!!- you are soooo worth it !!!!
Thanks, Nat – I was again pictured in your post – you are the best !
OMG Ms Determined Yes! Feeling sorry for them for their own doing! Masters at it! My MM couldn’t turn off the waterworks when the shit hit the fan, hahahahahahaha
Ugh Miss D you make me laugh. Have most of us not done this… *shaking head ruefully, embarrassed*
Pandora
Maybe the compassionate thing to do would be to dump him so he can have a period of repentance. I wouldn’t take him back either, I find that it,s best for both parties to move on separately. You,re not tied for life with everyone you share some time with.
I know there is debate in christian circles on how forgiveness works in relationships but you two are not married so i see no debate there myself. There,s no obligation other than the brotherly,sisterly one, and that doesn’t oblige a woman to go round a man,s house to nurse him. There are people at church I don,t speak to for weeks on end. It.s fine, they have their close friends, I have mine. There,s no sin there unless i started being gossipy or unkind.
It,s not a woman,s job to teach a man about himself. It,s for himself, his God, his pastor, his peers, and older men. Yay, there are some benefits to women being the weaker vessel! You can leave him to others to deal with.
As for what friends think, couples break up all the time, I,m sure they,ll cope. What seems to us like a cosmic disaster, to them is a week,s worth of gossip and maybe some awkwardness. You may lose touch with some of them, but it won,t be all of them. The ones who are left will be the better ones anyway.
@Pandora,
I hear you heart and soul, but this is a typical Florencing situation. He knows how you empathize with him and doesn’t want to do something about improving himself, because maybe then you’d walk away. If you really care about him in a friendly way, let him deal with his issues.. maybe a miracle would happen and he’d grow up. You’ll stay strangled in this for as long as he keeps stalling growing up. Remember, YOU are your first priority, he’s draining you. I know how that is because I’ve seen someone very dear to me there. Now, her health is all drained and he still cries for her help at the first teeny weeny need. You don’t wanna end up there. Good luck and stay strong
Pandora,
You want to extend your love to others, but you have no love for yourself. You want to ‘do’ for others — particularly the undeserving who do not reciprocate — but you do nothing to help yourself. When everything is at a cost to yourself, you are going to run out of currency. And then you won’t be any good to anyone, least of all yourself.
Your family and friends are giving you wise counsel. Why don’t you accept it as the gift that it is? They are speaking with your best interests at heart. If you tell them that you’re going to go NC with this guy, and that you’d like their support at times of weakness, I’m sure they’d eagerly sign up to that. And so would we here at BR!
Your feelings of devastation are not presented to you by the universe as something you’re meant to grin and bear. That’s a myth. In fact, that sounds like something a sadist would tell you to do. The universe doesn’t do that. The universe is not sadistic, it doesn’t play head games and it doesn’t indulge in emotional blackmail. Emotional pain, like physical pain, is a signal that you need to avoid the cause of it. Take your hand out of the fire. Cut off the people who are toxic to you. The distance you’re creating is good — keep going. Your goal is NC.
Thanks, all. Wise words. Yes, my family and friends, I believe, would support me although I do feel a bit like the girl who cried wolf as I have said, repeatedly, that I was done and going NC only to revert back. I need to really mean it and follow through with it. It hurts, because I do genuinely care for this man(child), and he has pretty much become my life’s focus. My therapist asked me to contemplate what I fear in letting go of him. It has occured to me th is past week- I fear abandonment, and lonliness. Yes, I would need to tackle issues in my own life as well as create one for myself. I am currently going through a divorce and have been living on my own for three years. My marriage was awful; I certainly don’t mourn that, but it is the loss of a dream of what my middle age and older years would be. Also, immediately before I became involved with this guy my mother died. So there’s been a lot of loss. I do need to extend that love to myself, I see how abandonment and the fear of it is a recurring theme here on BR. Trust me, when I do go NC for the final time, you all will know. And I will, indeed, count on your support because I know I will need it. God Bless you all for responding and caring about one another as you do! You are all amazing women.
Pandora
Thank You Natalie, this article came at a time when I needed it the most!
Tis probably why AC hates me so now; I called him on his lies and had evidence to back it up. Until the very end though, he was very, very good at covering up his double life. I just had a bit of unease the last couple of months; I have really learned to trust that unease. What really saddens me is that other folks knew what he was up to and said nothing, as though somehow it was OK for me to be hurt but not other women. It also really frosts my a$$ that we kicka$$ chicks, having learned our lessons try and move on with our lives only to encounter the phenomenal amount of deceit that goes on at dating sites. Like I’m not gonna figure out you are 5 inches shorter, 20 pounds heavier, 10 years older, don’t really want a committed relationship, are actually ready to have a heart attack rather than being the in shape stud you claimed to be? Most of the men I can meet IRL anywhere near here are NOT relationship material so on line is really my only option for awhile. It’s really frustrating to waste an entire tank of gas only to encounter yet another Pinocchio. Having said that I must admit to my own dishonesty; how does one kindly tell someone that they are not a match for you without letting them know it’s because you’re not attracted, they’re overweight, don’t seem to have their life together etc. without making them feel bad? I often state the wrong (dishonest) reason or say I have found someone else just to avoid hurting the poor guy or even not returning calls after a first date that was a real downer but those aren’t honest behaviors either.
“Like I’m not gonna figure out you are 5 inches shorter, 20 pounds heavier, 10 years older, don’t really want a committed relationship, are actually ready to have a heart attack rather than being the in shape stud you claimed to be?”
Miskwa, I love, love, love this! Like you, I don’t have many options other than on-line. This is what I have to deal with all the time. And I wonder what these guys are thinking! To be fair, many guys complain about the women being significantly older than their pictures, but guys, if she says she’s 48, and her pictures look like she’s 32, some due diligence is in order!
Someone once said to me, regarding these issues, if you start out even before the first date with a lie, what does this say about what kind of relationship you are going to have? Would you trust this person with more important things?
I wouldn’t put this in the same category as the little white lies we need to tell about why we don’t want to see someone again after the first date. I think it’s not necessary to tell them “what’s what”, (like OMG, you were 75 lbs. heavier than you claimed to be and your clothes were filthy!), but something like “I don’t think we were a great match.” End of discussion, no harm, no foul.
Okay I have to comment on Miskwa’s post.
I just got back on-line. I have decided to do it for one month, take a break, then one more month…I can’t do it more than that.
So I have this well-worded classy profile and cute, current pics. I have exchanged a few emails with one guy who seems promising, and have also gotten a few lame “wuz ups” from both unattractive and attractive men and a few sincere nice emails from men who are not attractive to me or just not interesting, but to whom I respond with a polite lie that I have met someone else but I appreciate their nice emails, because I really want to be nice to someone who at least put some effort in.
Anyhoo TODAY I got the most absurdly funny lame email, ONE line quoting my profile about wanting a man who was “respectful, down-to-earth and able to be both silly and serious at the right times.” He quoted it and then wrote “With all the stuff you expect, it does not surprise me that you are single.”
Seriously.
So respectful, down-to-earth and able to be both silly and serious at the right times…is “all the stuff”? Wow. He has no idea how much more I could have written down…
Ha! And we are all just as equally amazed that HE is still single! Mr. Bitter And Twisted. I bet he had a GREAT relationship with his mother. Haaaaaa Haaaa!
DQ, you were being ‘negged’ (yunno, PUA-speak). How do I know? Because he could have just thought that to himself. And he used the thing that every woman fears most ie: “You’re too neeeeeeeeeeeeeeedy.”
He was hoping you’d initiate a dialogue/meetup during which he could whisk you off to AC heaven.
Your profile sounds awesome. I have been trying to write one lately, but am finding it nigh on impossible not to pepper it with words like ‘asshole’ and ‘bite me’. I still have some work to do.
Ladies it gets worse lol! In the several hours since he posted that, unreplied to, he sent two more. One was quoting me saying “I love all things French” and he wrote “Btw, I have a friend who does too…she actually MOVED there. Why don’t you DO something about it.” (yes caps and all) and then another one, something stupid about this being a free website and all the women with our wishlists of perfection.
Okay the first two I ignored but the french comment just riled me because I actually did live there, for two years, and what a stupid thing to say! I would obviously not be here in the States if I could have made the same life for myself in France. It is not like they just stand there giving out visas and high paying jobs to everyone who wants to live there…dumbass.
So I wrote back “I did live there,for two years, dumbass. So sorry you are bitter because you are not getting anywhere on a free website ranting to women who wouldn’t date you. Guess what? I don’t care and you are blocked so go capitalize and freak out on some other woman before she blocks you too lol”
Bitchy? yes. Required? Yes.
Sorry I am not always takin the high road lol:)
you know, it would actually be funny (or not) to start a blog with our online dating adventures. you really do and see some stuff you just can’t make up.
DQ, i think you’re brave. i think i’ve sworn off the online thing, at least for a long time.
half of the guys can’t even string a single sentence together. i had a ‘writer’ contact me once. his email was full of spelling mistakes. horrible.
then there are the ones whose profile state ‘single’. yeah right, on more than one occasion it turns out they are divorced (which is fine, so am i), separated (which is not fine), or living with the ex.
so many times i’ve caught little lies and that was just from email contact. flush!
and then there’s the ones who seem so eager and then all of a sudden stop emailing all together. i had 3 of those winners in a row. very rude. it takes a few minutes to write me a letter telling me you’re not interested in further pursuing anything. but no.. they just disappear.
online is the perfect platform to be rude and dishonest. you need thick skin and lots of patience to deal with the nonsense. i am sure it does happen that people meet someone good through an online dating site. i just don’t know anybody.
good luck!
Ms Determined,
LOL.
Peppering your profile with asshole and bite me. Too funny! I know exactly how you feel.
I usually file those ones into the “Now I Know Why You’re Divorced/Still Single” file.
This is the biggest pet peeve in on-line for me: they wink (whatever), you respond with a thoughtful email and either they don’t respond, or respond with something as juvenile as “how r u”.
“Like I’m not gonna figure out you are 5 inches shorter, 20 pounds heavier, 10 years older, don’t really want a committed relationship, are actually ready to have a heart attack rather than being the in shape stud you claimed to be?”
ZOMG DREAMBOAT ALERT! Um, no.
Seriously, who the fuck is this stupid? Sprinkling magic fantasy dust over your dating profile is an exercise in abject futility because reality. What, they think that you’re going to actually prefer the busted ass V.0 of themselves to the Adonis version V.6 they’re trying to scam their way into your knickers with? Unless it does what it says on the tin, no one is even taking that shit off the shelf.
And I would not be spending one red cent more on gas Miskwa. Make them come to YOU so you can flush from the convenience of your own neighbourhood if need be.
“Who the fuck is this stupid?” My ex narc.
Found (purely by accident your honour) his dating profile and it said he was five feet 10. Well he must have been wearing three inch heels then. Also said he had university education (Nope. Perhaps he confused university with Reform/Approved School) and that he had a daughter. Again, no daughter. Seriously. His ex has an 18 year old daughter he still sees (just to piss the ex off naturally) but as he never even lived with them, he can’t really even claim her as an ex stepdaughter can he? Not in my court he can’t. This is a man who actually has loads of genuine things he could write about himself that would be attractive to most women, but he still chooses to spin these lies. It’s pathetic.
“Who the fuck is this stupid?”
The guy I had ONE very short date with once.
He was allegedly 6ft. tall – I met him and he wasn’t even as tall as me (5’5″).
I stood there in open-mouthed horror and shock – he pulled me to him and kissed me and I turned and ditched him in the club (one of those mega-clubs that had seven clubs in one).
Ew.
WTF?
IDK.
Ex AC lied about being 6ft. on his profile, he was only 5’11”, which set the tone for the whole relationship. A million tiny little lies that added up to one massive heap of pain and ambiguity and confusion.
Yick.
My gosh, this hits so close to home! The ‘playing back the tapes’ is something I go through often. I feel like an obsessed woman. It takes so much out of me. There are times that I look through old texts and I start thinking if he was lying then or not. My friends told me that it doesnt matter now bcuz I’m not with him anymore but I feel like i’m obsessed! How do I turn this off??
Exhausted,
A big thing that I have learned in therapy is this:
You CAN’T make sense out of NONSENSE.
Trust me, I have not fully embraced it myself (because I am just a natural analyzer in all aspects of my life), but whenever I start obsessing I try to remind myself of just how true that really is.
Being lied to in any situation is extremely painful, especially if you we’re being led to believe that there was to be an actual future. I once had one big time AC (who against better judgment I agreed to be fwbs with) later tell me of a sex dream they had where we were actually making love and on another occasion that they could stare into my eyes forever, all the while still talking to/hanging out with/and God only knows what else with their ex. Talk about saying and doing things to keep me on the back burner! Sometimes I feel that all I was good for was being on someone’s back burner while they spent most of their time and energy on some scumbag ex or abusive current they claim to want to leave. But you know what? NOT ANYMORE. Keep it moving. Nothing to see here, players!!!!
Exhausted, you can start by deleting those old texts. Can’t over analyse a blank phone screen. Why do you still have them stinking up your phone anyway? Ugh.
Delete all :letters, emails and messages – it will keep you sane.
I have an app on my phone that saves texts to my email which is useful for business purposes. I also occasionally re-read some of the ex AC’s texts and also emails I wrote to him because it reinforces my resolve to remain NC. It pisses me off all over again but the anger helps keep me in reality.
Exhausted, I agree with the others —
Maybe get a notebook and transcribe by hand all the texts between you first. That way, you get to pour over every single letter of them. Then, once you’ve copied them all into the notebook, delete them from your phone so you can’t ruminate on-the-go.
Once they’re in the notebook, maybe you can journal your thoughts about them — what were lies, what were truths. Read the journal to catch up with the ground you already covered, and you’ll probably find the ruminating cycles stop spinning and your thoughts start to move on.
You might never really know which exactly were lies and which were truths, but you probably have a pretty good idea about the sum total of how you were manipulated.
Exhausted: I hear you loud and clear.
This is such a big problem for me too… Worse I’m even more obsessed with the woman her cheated on me with. Why in god’s-holy-name am I obsessed with her? I’ve never met her or know anything about her. I did she them coming out of the spa together once, so I know what she looks like in real life.(I did go all Coloumbo on her and I learnt a lot more than I wanted to. Like where she works, family etc).
The rational side of me knows that I dodged a massive bullet. He’s a liar and I have proof that he was nothing more than an AC with other women prior to me… Past Behavior = Future Behavior. So I ‘think’ (?) she’s in for the same treatment. The difference with her I heard was that he proclaimed to “want a relationship” with her. This is new behavior. He also pulled his dating profile down. (Again new behavior). My mom said that she probably asked him to and this is just a ploy to keep her happy. All this was about 8 months ago. I have no idea what is happening with them now. I don’t even know if they are together. I wish I did not care (and in many ways I don’t) but I’m curious.
I saw her coming out of a store with a man the other day and the flood of feeling started up again. Much less intensity this time but they were still there. It stung more than hurt. I really don’t obsess about him anymore but her I do think about a lot. Why her? What so special about her? Why am I obsessing about her?
It’s been 3 months NC. And I believe the ex hasn’t tried to contact within that time, with one little exception of a holiday crumb-txt, for the main reason that in 2012… I began working in me, big time. And began my low BS diet. Towards the end, I saw the lies and deception as clear as day… And stood up for me, instead of trying to ‘change’ him. And that’s when he knew it was game over.
I especially love the part saying something like, looking back there’s regret because you realize
there’s was very little substance. Wow. So true. While you’re in it, seems like there’s so much there… (substance), but when it’s finally over… You realize there really wasn’t anything mutually substantial to keep it together, or to be the real deal.
They’re really not that special. I see him now as, ‘why did i cause ‘myself’ so much anguish over someone who demonstrated some serious character flaws when it cones to having a serious, healthy relationship.’. There were certain things, on the surface, that I truly enjoyed about him, his humor, and just having fun together.
I have truly forgiven him, and myself. I can’t hate someone for being who they are. I can choose to walk away, file away all of the hurt,
sadness, regret, and anger… Into my past where it belongs.
I don’t think I could be ‘friends’ with him. I am over him, Its just when someone knowingly screws you over, knowing that they’re causing you pain… That’s someone I wouldn’t even think of having as a friend. Totally unnecessary.
I am friends w all of my ex’s, because they were decent people, just not meant to be. But this last one, no thanks. And it would only remind me of a turbulent past… Nothing around me was good when he was in my life… I want no reminders! 🙂
Oh, and I need to add ‘thank you’, Natalie. Thank you for continually guiding all of us BR readers in the right direction, to where we all need to be, and eventually will be.
This site has, without a doubt, helped me become who I am today, which is someone a year ago, I didn’t think it would be possible. And that,…. is no BS! I hope you realize what a positive impact you have on all of us 🙂
Absolutely amazing how I thought these experiences were only happening to me! Then I read this and am brought back to the realization that this is happening to lots of people. You hit the nail on the head! Wow!
I can’t believe that I watched a man lie to any and everyone about all sorts of things for every reason, talk about people including family and friends behind their backs, bad mouth his ex who is single handedly raising their children very well, and expected and believed that he was upfront and honest with me just because he said he was. This post is right on time for me. I see I thought there was such a thing as an honest cheat. So glad that I’m out of the fog that was my miserable existence with him.
I applaud you Natalie for writing this blog straight talk no chaser. Natalie you have been an official fog clearer for me. And the awesome readers and commenters are priceless for being sooo candid.
I really appreciate you all. It keeps getting better with time.
Thank you, Natalie, and commenters here. I’ve been reading here for nearly a year and after multiple breakups with a narcissistic misogynistic psychopath, or AC, this last breakup finally has taken. I’ve gotten so much strength here. I’ve been with this man for 5 years and this last year was after a 5 month breakup by him, then several months of convincing me to get back together. The Idealize period was wonderful but of course didn’t last long. The last few months I was with him, I stepped back a bit emotionally with my new knowledge and approached it as a “study,” able to identify his behavior with Natalie’s terms. He drip fed, blew hot and cold, busted boundaries, gaslighted me, accused me of being overly sensitive, future faked… did I leave any out? He would give me the weirdest looks when I’d say, ‘pushing the reset button again?’ or something similar.
Then I caught him in a large lie on Christmas eve. I had to do some snooping but I had every right to know the truth. Turns out he’s been hiding “friendships” with female friends for this whole year. (If they’re friends, why not include me?) He said he had to hide it to keep me from getting upset. He said to please give him a chance to make it up to me, this time things would be different. He said he wanted to marry me, we could do it in the next 3-4 days. He said he wanted to start moving in immediately to show me I was who he wanted. He wanted to take care of me. Then he said he’d been unsure how I really felt about him and that should excuse his deceit. It was my fault because I’m crazy.
I said with confidence and strength that this was his second, third…final chance. Too bad he effed it up. He made his choices, did not protect the relationship or honor our commitment, and he lied, again. I told him his actions and words don’t match and I could only go by his actions and they sucked. Enjoy the consequences.
I fell for an illusion.
Thank all of you again for giving me the strength to do this, and not fold. Enough! I just want the money he owes me from 4 months ago, otherwise I am strictly No Contact. Now if I can quit obsessing and feeling inadequate; just need some time for that I suppose.
birdseye, just watch for him using that money he owes (sigh, what is it with these dropkicks and money?) as leverage or a way to keep contact between you going. If it’s a relatively small about you can absorb, I’d be forgetting about it. If not, be really specific about the terms of its return. Don’t let it be a foot in the door for him to come back and fuck with your head some more. Have you got anything of his of value or gifts he gave you that you can sell to recoup the amount owed? You’re surely not going to keep those things around you reminding you of that toxic asshole and you may as well make money out of them rather than starting a giant bonfire out of pictures of him and any shit he’s left lying around and burning an effigy of his stupid ass on it.
Actually wait, that second option sounds pretty fun!
Birdseye, yours is an edifying story! You nailed your colours to the post: no more pain, no more manipulation, no more fast-forwarding, no more bullshit!
We somehow tend to forget these are ADULTS we’re talking about. Adults who are supposed be equipped with the same capacity to act their age as we are.
I was thinking about the ‘friends’ he’s been romancing, and how — on discovery — he suggested you just drop everything and get all married before the sun hit the horizon. If you’d agreed to that (silly move!), imagine what that would have been like for those other women. They’d probably be here on BR by the weekend! We’ve heard their kind of perspectives here time and time again — where a boyfriend, or quasi-boyfriend, drops them a text out of the blue to announce that he just up and married someone else the other day, or moved in with some random woman yesterday. And then he comically pretends to act like it’s a normal thing and he’s just a guy who, aw shucks, got swept off his lil ol feet, and oh of course can they still be his fallback girl I mean friend etc.
Natalie, this is gold. GOLD.
When I suspected my ex AC was lying – and he was the kind who lied when he didn’t need to – I used to let him fucking have it. I would hurl all sorts of nasty names at him and as I have shamefully copped to before, sometimes I would do things to intentionally fuck him up, as payback. For example I’d leave him locked out of the house at 5.30am when he returned from a night out having forgot/lost his keys. When I opened the door to go to work to find him on passed out on the doorstep I’d kick him awake and just shrug and claim I hadn’t heard him raising holy hell to get me out of bed to let his fucking ridiculous ass in. Yes, we were the perfect passive agressive couple. Sigh.
Towards the end, the incredible, bone crushing rage I felt didn’t even come from his repeated betrayals and fucking lame-o excuses, but from him thinking I was stupid. It absolutely used to tear me UP. I would lie in an empty bed at night seething with rage, plotting ways to
kill him and make it look like an accidentcatch him red handed so I could finally smack him down with the truth and reveal him for the miserable fraud he really was. It was a total fucking nightmare that I was trapped in by my own stupid EGO. (Curse you, ego!)But in the end I could have avoided the 24/7 “is he or isn’t he” loop by observing one key fact. How do you know someone is lying? This is how. He was lying because he stayed around when I called him on his shit. And I’m not just talking mild accusations, I took that shit to DEFCON 5. Now, if I had levelled some of the accusations I had hurled at the ex AC at a rational, sane, healthy man, I’m pretty confident that once the words were out of my mouth, I wouldn’t see him for dust. Ever again. I don’t know about you, but if someone accused me of cheating, and I hadn’t done any such thing, much less thought about it, I would register a massive red flag and end the relationship right on the spot. A sane, emotionally healthy man is not going to hang around and assist you with your trust issues while you shoot daggers at him from your eyes, he’s probably going to shrug and say to himself “Hmmn, disappointingly this woman doesn’t see me for who I really am. Perhaps it’s best if I state this calmly as the reason I am ending it, and then leave quietly in search of someone who’s a better fit for me.”
Whatever you do, don’t confuse that healthy man with those eedjuts who when you accuse them of lying get all yelly-in-your-face and take off immediately and threaten to break up with you (or actually do it), they’re just outraged you’ve seen under the mask. They tend to come back at a later date when they think you’ve forgotten or calmed down or whatever. A healthy man just isn’t coming back, because you presented him with a major red flag. That healthy man is probably dating a woman who has read every article and comment on BR and all of Nat’s books and has her shit SORTED.
They stay. This is the most intelligent and logical comment I have heard on cheating. Thank you for finally allowing me to truly be able to listen to my inner voice – he STAYED. Not out of love. Out of guilt, out of obsession, out of being an assclown.
Yup, that makes so much sense. I myself have spent much time trying to make ‘sense of nonsense’, this is one of my pieces too – my exMM, after I called him out on ‘playing’ me still tried to convince me that he didn’t, and tried to play the ‘friend’ card, more BS. A healthy person would have had none of that as they would have understood that it was a no win situation – this ass thought he could still ‘manage’ things even after the shit hit the proverbial fan…probably to try an keep me as an option if his wife didn’t eat the BS he was/is feeding her, as well as image control…
” I would lie in an empty bed at night seething with rage, plotting ways to kill him and make it look like an accident ”
Been there/done that! Now I look back and think why did I stay so long? I didn’t even have kids with this particular AC (XH1). OK I left eventually but we sure do know how to drag it out don’t we? And then, the fucker stalked me! Actually climed up the drainpipe trying to look in my bedroom window cos he thought I had a man in there (sadly not.) Months after I left I found out my spidey senses had been 100% right, as confirmed when the OW contacted me and sang like a canary. What really annoys me though is that every time I seem to have forgotten what I have learnt with the previous eejit. No more, thanks to BR. I am now on hypervigilant AC alert 24/7.
Victorious, I scared myself with the level of anger I reached. The plots I hatched in my head to humiliate, degrade and screw him over the way he’d done to me became a full time obsession. If I hadn’t ‘won’ in the end by finding and confronting him with proof, I would now be insane. Hell hath no fury like a Ms Determined scorned.
But sweet jeebus, what a waste of energy. I often wonder what I could have achieved if I’d harnessed those months of angst productively. I could have recreated the great pyramids of Gizeh in my backyard.
“I often wonder what I could have achieved if I’d harnessed those months of angst productively. I could have recreated the great pyramids of Gizeh in my backyard.”
this had me seriously crack up with laughter. hilarious. thank you!!!
Ms. Determined. Have you ever considered a career as a stand up comic? Your turn of phrase and wit is priceless. Despite the fact that we are dealing with some serious heart wrenching shit here you never fail to put a wry spin on it without being offensive.
Victorious: OMG! I know staking is horrible but this sentence had me laughing that tear started to roll out of my eye. LOL! “Actually climbed up the drainpipe trying to look in my bedroom window cos he thought I had a man in there (sadly not.)”
LOL! That is so pathetic. OMG! ROFL….. ?
It was hilarious. A female mate had called round and was knocking on my door when she realized he was halfway up the drainpipe! He dropped to the floor and ran away. When I called him to express my anger and surprize, you can all guess what he said can’t you…………….
It Didn’t Happen! It wasn’t him! Obviously we accepted this and my friend just went to the opticians to get her eyes checked out cos it couldn’t be BS/lies could it? And whilst he was doing this the OW was sitting at home waiting for him…………*Throws hands in air*
The woman I dated had major trust issues, and I recognized them as a crimson flag very soon. I felt over-responsible for her and honestly thought I could help her. It, or rather I, took a few weeks of endless interrogations about the smallest and least relevant details of my life, before I accepted that I was powerless against these worms that were apparently constantly eating her heart. Still, I’m glad that I tried and even came back multiple times. It’s very hard to strike the right balance of responsibility, it takes a lot of experience, and in all honesty, unhealthy or not, I’d rather err on the side of over-responsibility than the other.
“And I’m not just talking mild accusations, I took that shit to DEFCON 5”
Rooibos tea… out of nostrils on cat’s head.
Very interesting post, thank you Nat. I never believe any BS my ex AC told me, BUT when I asked him (in my email) to leave me alone and find someone else, his answer was : “But I love you” I, for example would never say “I love you” if I do not mean it:( IS it that easy for them to say it in order to keep us involved/interested? I know that actions speak lauder than words, but yet again I wanted to believe it…
Little Star,
Absolutely! They’re simple little words. Very easy!
Love is demonstrated with action.
Thank you my lovely virtual friend, I will look closely to actions not empty promises! x
I’m with you Kit-Kat. The minute I saw the title, I knew the best of the best.
I think, thinking back, it was the lying to myself that hurt the most. Yep, I was an ostrich. If I buried my head in the sand, the lies would go away. Nope! Simple: There’s no such thing as an honest cheat. So simple, yet it stings. I think what stings the most is that I had to learn such a simple lesson at such an old age! Hope the ladies and gents reading this blog learn this basic lesson before you hit 50-something.
Don’t feel bad, runnergirl. Same decade as you. Seemed like I learnt this lesson years ago and did fine for quite some time. Then all the wrong qualities showed up in a nice presentation with all the charm and promises and excitement. Head went in sand when the flags started waving. I’m more angry at myself at this point, too.
Ah Birdseye, so sorry. Gotta watch the nice presentation, charm, promises, and excitement at any decade. That’s a dicey cocktail so don’t beat yourself up too badly. Let’s just keep our heads out of the sand.
Charm, promises, and excitement are red flags for me as are Ughs, dirty shorts, bad manners, lying about their age (what is up with that?) and ex’s. Could there be a middle ground?
No Uhgs? I hated then too until I owned a pair (well, less expensive knock offs), Lol. But, that said, one of the biggest eum/ac I ever dated bought me a pair of them to wear ‘only at his house’, I couldn’t take them home because he wanted them to ‘stay clean’.
I’m not dating currently (working on me) but the last time I was on Match, I found so much of “dirty shorts, bad manners, lying about their age (what is up with that?)”. One guy had all the above and even lied about his status!!! He had himself as divorced when he’d never been married.??? WTF??
His explaination, “I don’t want women to think I have commitment issues”. We had one date. Talked and cried (literal tears) over his ex on the date.
You know ladies, no matter how many bad dates I’ve been on with guys with Ughs, bad manners, and lying about their age (c’mon 49 isn’t that different from 53…sheesh), and ex bashing/crying, it is somehow more refreshing to see their Ughs, bad manners, lies for what they are. Confused123, I just hit the opposite. The guy listed himself as single at 55 when he’s been divorced twice. His reason was that he didn’t want women to think he had commitment issues. LOL. We didn’t even meet after the short chat on the phone.
Selkie, get those Ughs and wear them out in the snow and the dirt and get them dirty. Just don’t wear them on a first date…maybe the second?
“Drip Fed the truth” I didn’t really understand that concept until I saw the holes in the time, the holes in the lies of where he was and who he was with. The drip feeding of information about his day, yet wanting a full account of my whereabouts, from the moment I got off of work till I saw him. It’s been no contact now 7 weeks, and I can see so much clearer, and don’t miss him, or the lies, the arguements over who knows what, all the deception, my suspicions of where and who he was with. That’s not love, that’s not a relationship. He is blocked yet about once a week, some little card is left on my car, which creeps me out, because I feel I am being stalked, but the words mean nothing to me. Playing back the tapes, the mind F***kery, I got family members to fill in the blanks for me about the lies, the omissions. And even then he threw a tantrum and called me the psycho and all his family liars. Yes, I did begin to doubt myself because he was so good at lying to me. So if you can get one thing at all from this post, you aren’t nuts, you are being played by a pro and you aren’t the first and won’t be the last that he will string along to only get what he wants from you, while he is playing others. I am learning to trust my intuition, if it doesn’t feel right, it probably isn’t. Thank you Natalie!!
PSYCHO as a label for a woman is a major red flag for me. As soon as I hear this word come out of any man’s mouth my instant reaction is “What personally tailored hell did you subject this woman to?” Displaying anger on the realisation you’ve been betrayed isn’t psycho, it’s a totally normal and justifiable reaction. Neither is being resentful when he pushes the reset button on his cheating episodes, as if women shouldn’t display any other emotion than smiling sweetly when presented with lies. He’s deflecting the fact that HE is the a psycho onto YOU. And the next time I hear it on a date, I’m going to call the guy on it for a little fun.
Spot on Ms. Determined. My ex expected me to just smile sweetly and move on after having found out about his lies and deceitful behavior. No wonder it was so difficult to move on when he wouldn’t even acknowledge the pain he had put me in.
Shegeeks, yeah, mine cried and cried and told me that I deserved better and to forget him. Oh, like it would be that easy, like a switch after 2 months of love bombing and making himself the centre of my universe with constant texts and future faking… What a bozo
@SheGeeks,
My exAC did the same thing, I was suppose to be SOOO happy he was there. 3 yrs later after the incidences (still not knowing the truth) I said something to him him about it all and his reply was “Sorry about the Dana thing and Kathy thing”. He knew I was at the end of my rope – I looked at him and said don’t say THING it only minimizes what you did. THING – really – I also got that he only sees women as “THINGS”. NICE. I left a few weeks later.
A year later he was calling all “in love w/ me and effed up”. I said oh – are you ready to settle for **** (me?) and he said it was not settling – my reply I know that – but you don’t. Haven’t talked since!!
Doing better – distance helps, but every so often I have a day where I struggle to keep it all perspective. Just got to remember he is doing the same to all the girls that have and will continue after me.
i feel so bad for the next asshole i meet since starting the work on the new me. i am gonna stop them mid bullshit-sentence , kanye west style , and actually say out loud ” i’ma let you finish but…FLUSH!” don’t care if they think i am a crazy person they talk about with their friends later at the pub for doing that; i will be far, far away from them and their bullshit.
lmao kookie! love it!! 🙂
Thank you so much for the post!!! It came at the perfect time as my ex tried to get in touch again. They never stop lying. He’s lying to her just as badly, but she is the one who is going to live with it. I’m going on the BS diet. Your site has been amazing with helping me get past my relationship and help take my blinders off. Thank you!!!
I read, then I cry, then I read some more, then I cry some more. I’m hoping someday I will only read, with no more tears, shame, or self-blame. I don’t even want to read sometimes, but I know I have to, it’s the only way out. As Kit-Kat pointed out,’I knew the second I saw the title that this post was going down as one of the best of the best’! Of course, they are all wonderful. ‘There’s no such thing as a honest cheat’. So true, so true, I even gave him an excuse, well all least he’s honest. Hmph… when was he honest and when was he lying? It started to become clear I could believe nothing, I had no idea what the difference was anymore. He told me stories of his younger years, how he had cheated and lied in what he was doing, even seemed to be bragging about it because he never got caught. You know the sad part is you don’t even trust your own judgement anymore. You don’t know what’s real and what’s not. I have eaten and swallowed, gratefully, I might add, more platefuls of BS until it has literally made me sick. I have assclown poisoning! When you finally know the truth, or think you know the truth, and choose to go back for more, it’s never the same. Because in your heart you do know, the doubt is there, so it becomes more difficult to BS yourself. Unless you don’t even care anymore, then that’s rock bottom, the ugliest of all.I believed him and it hurts like a pain like that can only hurt. Deep in your soul, to the very core of your being. The lies, the deceit,the manipulations, the coercions,I ate and ate until I had a belly full of it and then asked for more too many times. He did unspeakable things to me and caused me to do the same. I am like a child, constantly asking why, I get the answer and ask more why’s. I know for some things it will never make sense and I will never know why. Because it wasn’t meant to, you cannot do that with lies and the machinations of a roaring lion who is seeking to devour you. We are the survivors who are left half-eaten, not cowards as they are. Not refusing to seek help and only want to try to better ourselves.I am like you Kit-Kat,’In my own little fantasy world I truly believed with all my heart that the AC would never want, nor was capable of, hurting me in the ways he did. I trusted in us, in him, and paid a very high price. Yes, there were some red flags along the path but I didnt know what they meant and pushed them into the back of my mind thinking if I ignored them maybe they would go away’. The only thing that went away was me, to a very dark, cold and empty place. It’s going to take a long, long time to find my way out and I don’t think I have that many more years left. I am so degraded, so deeply disturbed, that a part of me still wants to go back after investing 15 yrs. My years with my ex and my years with this one, it’s all I’ve ever known, a lifetime. Facing it all, knowing I have so many issues, that I, too, am emotionally unavailable having to actually be honest with myself, it all just makes me want to go crawl under a rock and die. So very, very tired and worn down. Will they ever know the pain we have, I think not? Sorry to get long-winded, thank you again Natalie!
Oh Hopeful,
Your post makes me weep. Listen, I don’t presume to understand everything you’ve been through. It sounds like your road has been much tougher than mine. But don’t lose heart! You can change your life so fast! You are facing the truth and telling the truth! As long as you do that you are not “degraded”; you are an inspiration and shining example to everyone! “Will they ever know the pain we have?” It doesn’t matter — all that matters is that YOU know it, and are doing something about it. You will save yourself. Others have. You will too. Get the help you need and believe in yourself and your future happiness. You can do this.
@Hopeful
“You know the sad part is you don’t even trust your own judgement anymore. You don’t know what’s real and what’s not. I have eaten and swallowed, gratefully, I might add, more platefuls of BS until it has literally made me sick. I have assclown poisoning!” LMAO
Not at you or the pain, I felt the same as you when I left. I read these posts and cried and cried. I just LOVED the AC poisoning – and THAT”S EXACTLY HOW IT IS – POISONING!!
That soul wrenching pain hurts – makes me sad that we have all felt this way over these asses.
“He did unspeakable things to me and caused me to do the same. I am like a child, constantly asking why, I get the answer and ask more why’s.”
This gets easier w/ distance and time – but as my good friend and guru told me -some times it’s as simple as Why? Because now you know you truley know how to love someone – just have to find the “right” person who will respond in kind – with same values, love, kindness, etc.
Sending you love Hopeful – I was exactly where you are in this post 2 1/2 years ago when I ended it, and when he contacted me 1 1/2 years ago – I felt the same way for a while – this to shall pass – I PROMISE!
Lord help me! I am happy and content in my relationship with my new bf. And, yet I guess I still feel the hurt from what I went through with the MM. I’ve thought that it was the most horrific situation I’ve ever found myself in. No, I chose to engage in. (I wasn’t forced into it). I STILL FEEL THAT WAY! I’m totally over him. I’ve moved on. It’s 2 yrs, now. But he was, as much as I dislike using labels, a sociopath. Reading this post takes me back to that time and it is still painful. This is surprising because I certainly don’t think about him or wonder what he’s doing. Not at all. But, apparently, some experiences in our lives take a very long time to completely “forget”. Perhaps we never do or the pain very slowly recedes. At the end of the previous post I asked for input because I was mulling over why those who have had traumatic childhoods and horrific parents keep going back there. I stated that psychologists have brainwashed us that we do certain things because of how we were treated back then, and that we continue to have certain beliefs which are hurtful to us because our parents instilled so much hurt that we’re still carrying in our hearts and minds. Well, I see noe that perhaps I have asked about this and have had difficulty relating because I had a “normal” childhood compared to the stories I’ve heard on BR. However, after reading this profound post I realize that I am not quite as strong as I thought I was. I realize that I am and we are all HUMAN. We have feelings. Regardless of the SOURCE of the trauma, it is still trauma and it can take a very long time to recover. I repeat, I am content. I refuse to allow my past shameful experience with an MM to soil this “clean” wholesome relationship that I have now. But it’s something that I’m reflecting on. Any thoughts about this would really be appreciated. It’s very late and I am very tired so maybe I’m feeling overly sensitive right now. Maybe after a good long sleep/rest. I will feel differently. However, I really would like some input from any of you ladies regarding anything I’ve said.
I don’t buy into the phychobabble that women in our situation are looking for creeps so that we can resolve our unresolved childhood. He didn’t hook me by being a lying assholes – initially, he was everything I was looking for. I didn’t get the guy I signed up for, and I was duped same as a lot of people.
These people are toxic and dangerous because – as you said – we are HUMAN. We have no natural defenses, we have no idea somebody like that can even exist. It’s like taking candy from a baby – it’s a no brainer. By the time we wise up, and begin to get a handle on what these people are – it’s too late. We passed traumatized a long time ago.
Trauma is a difficult thing for humans. I know that any ‘feelings’ I have for him have gone, but what I remember – and what keeps me emotionally tied up with him – is the trauma. When he crosses my mind, I still feel in one wave, all the hurt he caused me over so many years. The shock, that someone I had loved could have been so cold and cruel, could have had absolutely no regard or concern for my feelings.
We are violated as people, and I don’t think that ever goes away. It’s like seeing a gruesome wreck — get that one out of your head…
No more
I went through a few abusive situations and why they were not a direct result of my childhood, my childhood certainly did not give me the tools to help me. I had a very high tolerance for being mistreated. My personal alarm had been desensitised a long time ago.
You may not have had natural defences before but you do now, unless you are physically overpowered. We may be violated but I find that, in fact, it does go away. It pops up every now and then during life stresses but the vast majority of days it really is so far away from me that I would struggle to remember what it was like.
The trauma does keep us emotionally tied. Bizarrely, kidnap victims and the tortured can strike up relationships with their kidnappers and torturers. It,s not unusual and it can help with survival, but when you are out it,s time to learn something new.
I,m not a baby or a child anymore, nor a victim or traumatised. It can be put to rest without glossing over it. It is a journey and it does take time and is entirely possible and even probable.
NoMore, i agree with you. i didn’t pick an EUM to resolve my childhood issues (which are pretty much non existent anyways). just like yours, mine was everything i had initially been looking for. they chase you and they get you and they rope you in and once you’re roped in they unfold… slowly but surely.
my feelings for him are gone. i can still see what i was attracted to in the beginning. i do believe that’s still there but the cold and cruel way he managed down my expectations in order to eventually drop out of my life is something i will never be able to wrap my head around.
perhaps that’s a good thing because i don’t operate that way.
Tinker – I answered to your message on Nat’s previous post with a link to some great vidoes. A lot to think/listen to – Feel better soon
Tinkerbell I am in the same situation as you and happy with my current relationship. It is 4 years for me and I still feel the trauma but less and less. I think the thing that hit me the worst was obssessing about “was any of it real or authentic? Was it all bs? The disappearing, running hot and cold and other behaviors all added to my addiction to this ass. Learning he was a narcissist and boy is he classic was and still is traumatic to me. Realizing in hindsight the manipulation that took place boggles my mind to this day so I really have to make an effort to put it out of my mind. I think the healing takes a long long time. The good news is I feel very peaceful with him out of my life. That is worth celebrating. I think of that line in the wizard of oz when dorothy escapes and says…”we got away toto” we got away 🙂
Beth D/Tinkerbell… I hear ya. It is eight years since I escaped the assclown and I still get the ‘We got away Toto’ feeling every day. It really makes me appreciate the small things that I couldn’t enjoy before and I am very grateful for the peace and lack of drama in my life. So I like to think in a perverse way he did me a favour.
He did you a huge favor as mine did for me. He revealed himself so clearly there was no turning back for me no matter how many tears, declarations of love he spout out. I knew he was a lying, manipulating sack of shit and it was a deal breaker. Lack of drama….ahhhh I don’t know how I did it. I just know it feels so good to not have it in my life anymore at any level which is why I will continue NC forever with this POS.
Tinkerbell, it may be ‘repeating on you’ like yesterday’s green onions because it was a completely unique experience… thankfully.
It wasn’t just any old normal past relationship that sort of blends into the landscape with other normal past relationships that come and go. It was with a psychopath. They literally rip off part of your soul and take it away with them when they discard you. It’s uniquely horrific, not so much like playing a part in a sentimental romantic tearjerker than it is being trapped inside a scene from Texas Chainsaw Massacre with no way out.
You likely suffered PTSD. Have you tried reading the texts of Hare, Cleckley, Babiak, Stout, et al? It will help you to sort out the cognitive dissonance that’s still troubling you.
Forgetting all about it isn’t the objective, but understanding it will release the agony that’s still under your otherwise flawless surface! Then you can think about it as some ‘weird episode with a dangerously fucked-up guy’ rather than The Thing Lurking That Must Not Be Thought About. And you will also gain the benefit of being able to stop blaming yourself.
One of Aesop’s fables is often used to introduce an overview of psychopathic behaviour. A frog and a scorpion found themselves side by side, both needing to cross a river. The scorpion suggested that, as he cannot swim, the frog should provide him with a ride across the river on her back. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if he stung her, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown too. The frog relents and agrees, and swims out, carrying the scorpion. Midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. The frog gasps ‘You stung me! But why?!’ The scorpion replies ‘Of course I stung you. I’m a scorpion.’
This post comes at the most perfect time! I just found out this evening that the guy I had been seeing for the past 4 months, (I ended it with him a month ago) started seeing another girl before our relationship was over. From the beginning, I was very honest and open and told him that if he ever met someone else or was sleeping with someone else, to please tell me so I could walk. I guess I thought that if I was honest then he would show me the same courtesy. Now I have every moment and everything he said to me replaying in my head. I just feel so stupid and although I know it’s not my fault, I just don’t know how I could be so off base with this one and such a bad judge of character. I know I shouldn’t take it personal but man, it is really hard not to. And I think what pisses me off the most is that if I didn’t end it with him, I truly believe he wouldn’t have had the decency to end it with me and would be seeing the both of us. I guess I should be thankful for following my gut and listening to my inner voice to end it with him in the first place, but it is really hurtful to hear about the lies after the fact.
Renee, I’m sorry but your summation of events deserves a C-. I’ve taken the liberty of re-writing your post (no, don’t thank me, it’s a pleasure) to reflect what happened more accurately.
Renee says:
Now, 2013
YAAAAAAAAY ME! I don’t feel anything at all about the pathetic AC I broke up with 4 months ago, when I know in some cases it takes others YEARS to get over betrayal and breakups. Even though I was totally clear and upfront about what I (totally reasonably) expected from him, he immediately went and did the opposite even though he implied he understood my expectations. I conclude this guy is a loser who doesn’t even understand english.
I knew something was very wrong and as it turns out I WAS RIGHT, he got involved with another girl before we broke up! Which means he not only doesn’t understand english, but he is crap at maths too because a couple consists of TWO people. Not three. SO dumb. But anyways, I’m proud I had the confidence to take a chance on the potential of intimacy with a guy who seemed worth it at the outset, but even prouder that I bailed as soon as I worked out he was actually an unspeakable asshole who didn’t have even a kindergarten level understanding of letters and numbers. I think I’m on top of this stuff! Thanks Natalie, you rock.
That’s how I read your post, anyway. Yay Renee!!!
Ms Determined,
Thank you so much! That was amazing and exactly that I needed to hear. If only I was eloquent. 😉 I have been a huge fan of this site. It has been my “bible” so to speak for years and this is the first time I have actually posted on it. Everyone on here is so amazing. Thanks again and thanks Nat for developing a sanctuary where such intelligent, strong, loving people can be supportive of one another.
Loved the re-write Ms. D. Also, I’ve enjoyed your contributions. Renee, celebrate the fact you flushed the cheating AC after only 4 months. It is hurtful though.
Yay Renee.
Renee, you aren’t alone, same thing just happened to me. I gave him the same ‘out’ as you did…after all, we’re all adults, dating, as Nat says, is a discovery phase. I figured he was a nice grown-up, raising a little girl on his own, he’d have some empathy. But no…he was looking for the next one while he was still with me, all along feeding me future faking words until he couldn’t do it anymore. I felt stupid that I bought his BS. I felt stupid that I trusted he would do the right thing. But look at it this way: you have now eliminated a flawed person from your life. Just think of how much more misery being with a person like this would affect your life.
Tracy,
Wow! Were we dating the same assclown? Our situations are very similar! But yes, we are both fortunate to have moved on from this situation rather than still being in the middle of it. Better to know who they truly are now! 🙂
Renee,
What made you end it?
Allison,
He was newly divorced and wasn’t ready for a committed relationship, not in the sense he wanted to date other people (which is what he told me) but that he wanted his freedom to hang out with his friends when he wanted. I know, I know! The red flags are flying like crazy! The first thing out of my mouth when we met was that we weren’t in the same place, as I have been divorced for 4 years and he newly divorced. He assured me he wanted the same things and didn’t want just a casual relationship. So being the hopeless romantic that I am, I fell for his b.s. and future faking. I told him I wasn’t interested in rushing into anything but I did expect him to be honest with me and set my rules/boundaries up front. I finally decided to end it because I just couldn’t handle the hot and cold anymore. I sensed something was up because he was being more distant than usual. He insisted he wasn’t dating anyone else and hadn’t slept with anyone since we met. I actually did believe him and thought he just needed time and space to mourne the loss of his marriage. It ended amicably and I actually didn’t have any hard feelings and understood what he was going through and that he needed space to heal. I didn’t want to be his “emotional airbag” any longer so I chose to end it. And then last night I receive multiple phone calls from a girl that he is dating, wanting to know who I was and if he was with me last night. Of course he wasn’t. Come to find out he overlapped and the distance I was feeling wasn’t just because he is EU, but because he’s also an assclown!
Renee,
You’re right! He is an AC!
You did the right thing. You listened to your gut and got out.
My ex, had been divorced for four years, he was no where near being over the ex, an she was still a big part of his life – still did her taxes. UGH!!!!! This was only one of the many things I dealt with.
Great life lesson!
EU/AC/Scorpion call me back later that night, all panicky telling me that the girl who called was a “psycho” ex-girlfriend that he just broke up with a couple days prior and that she was calling me to get back at him. He said he met her long after I had ended it with him and that everything she said was lies. He couldn’t believe that I would believe a stranger over him. I kindly told him I never wanted to hear from him again. I deleted all his contact information and blocked his # so he cannot text or call.
FLUSH!
Renee, that was definitely a frog/scorpion situation (see my post above about the Aesop’s fable)! Of course he promised not to sting you. But he did. Because that’s what he does. That’s what he is. Thankfully you didn’t drown — you made it to the other side of the river!
Ill gotten gains are never good. Without honesty in relationships it’s all just one big illusion. My ex’s ego started to fall in love with the illusion I projected which was basically what I thought he would find to be the perfect woman. I fell in love with the illusion of him. Basically we fancied each other’s illusions.
Tinkerbell , you are strong . You have come on here and kicked my butt when i needec it and supported me when i slipped . Even strong people need a hand . You are amazing you have moved on and into a better rship . You dont give a thought to the creep who hurt you . But the hurt of what he did remains , dont if you can look at as hurt but a hurt warning alarm you carry so you are fully aware of any red flag or bs coming youre way , for warned is for armed . That hurt is youre armour deflecting off any acs that come ypure way in any shape or form . I want to be like you in a couple of months if as strong . Battle on , your words helped me through a shit day and will continue to do so x
Allison
Yes your are right , though he wasnt married when i met him and fell for him . But youre right and i derserve the outcome i got whole heartdly . I make no exscuses and holdy hands up . What did i truly expect . I fell from grace once in my life and paid a price , he turns out to repeatdly to it again and again and again , maybe one day hell learn the same lesson .
Tired,
We are human, and we make mistakes. I know I have made some doozies!
The problem I have, is that I don’t hear accountability on your part, only victimization. I have not heard any remorse towards the family and how your actions contributed to this situation. It’s all about him. It’s like a broken record.
I think there has to come a time when you have to focus on your part solely – like the other ladies have done – or you will continue in this cycle forever.
I am not trying to be mean-spirited, I just want to see some growth, and your ability to move forward with your life! Please, let go, and get unstuck from the victimization and drama!
Ms.Determined
Hilarious! Tears in my eyes as I laugh! I needed that pick me up!
Tinkerbell,
your openness and your truth struck me to want to respond. It’s very similar to what is said in the 12 step meetings of any addiction. We take an inventory, non-judgemental of what we have done to our selves and others. And figure out our patterns of behavior, and they do come from our childhood, we all come out with scars, unbeknowst to even the best of parents, because we all view and react to situations that are personal to ourselves. In the meetings it talks about not shutting the door on the past- which means don’t judge,shame yourself, just learn from it, and improve on yourself. I have learned in moments of vulnerability, fear of the unknown, when I’m feeling insecure, I will overlook someone’s unkindnesses to me because at that time that person may be filling some hole, some emptiness in me. So I too, am on some level using them. Yes, this is truly a journey of self awareness. I’m not going to continue to ask wy and beat myself up. I keep a journal and write in it every night. And yes, forgive myself, and renew myself every morning to stay on the low BS diet.
Emerldeys,
That creep is stalking you, perhaps it`s time to go and find out what you can do about it from the police.
Little Star,
I had a business card in an envelope under my wiper on my car, when I got out of work very late last night, and it said ” I love you with all my heart, babe. Show some of that love that you professed to me and talk. Dont throw away the love of your life” I have been no contact 7 weeks and counting. I would like to say you have become the nightmare of my life, but don’t want to break the no contact. It’s like “NoMore” says we have been traumatized and that is the bond, that keeps pulling us back. That is why no contact works so beautifully. It gives space, clarity, and we can regain our emotional health. He groomed me, he saw my vulnerabilities, and went in for the attack again and again and again, until I questioned my own sanity. That is abuse, not love. Good riddens!
Griz,
I agree with Sushi. Have you considered a restraining order?
Sorry, I meant Emerald
Thank you for sharing your experience Emerldeyez…You are right, their empty words and “sweet little notes” mean NOTHING! I am glad that you getting stronger and 7 weeks of NC is real achievement! ALL the best x
He’s a predator!!
Okay…my counselor always takes exception to my AC when I express that he hurts me often in various lies, abandonment, other women, blah, blah…and has said to me more than once “I don’t think he is intentionally setting out to hurt you…I think he can’t help what he does and he is just being himself never thinking about how it is affecting you. So you need to decide if you want to put up with it or get him out of your life.” Do you really think he isn’t aware of how he is hurting me? Or that what he is doing is AC behavior?
Nancy
You may be missing the wood for the trees. What your counsellor said is not one hundred percent helpful in my opinion but he or she is trying to refocus you from the why the AC is an AC to deciding whether you want to keep him in your life. Knowing why they lie etc does not help us because it feeds our fascination with them. And you will never know because you cannot get inside their heads.
Counsellors are just human too with their own beliefs and attitudes and baggage and pluses and minuses. You don,t have to take it all as gospel. Don,t let something they say stop you from making decisions.
It doesn’t matter whether he is intentionally hurting you or not,
bottomline data is
– IT HURTS
Do I think rocks falling from overhead cliffs INTEND to hurt me?
Hell no
Am I going to hike where I know there are falling rocks and danger?
Er…no.
(Not anymore, anyway, hahaha…I had my fill of pain, thankyouverymuchdonedonedone).
And let me add…he doesn’t usually lie (alrhough sometimes he does) but he will just go silent and then after the fact say “I am driving back from Chicago.” Or “I had a friend staying with me for the weekend.” Or the classic “I just need to work on myself for a bit and celebrate celibacy.” I have learned during his times of silence that it means he is either with someone or looking for additional supply.
nancy,
I feel absolutely outraged on your behalf.Your councellor is serving you BS. Your AC is just as aware of his behaviour as you are of the fact that you don`t like that behaviour. My councellor served me similar “food for thought” being fully aware of my low self esteem and the red flags my AC was waving in my face. He actually encouraged me to start having sex with this AC and “have some fun” when I was agonising over his lies and an ex- lover hovering around him…Doesn`t a professional, hopefully aware councellor know that a man who says “I need to enjoy celibacy” and who serves up a silent treatment is a no-go zone? The councellor makes you doubt your feelings, and your feelings are perfectly justifiable. Some of these psych`s do more damage than help. Trust yourself.
I’m not so outraged.
I think what the counsellor is doing is removing the emphasis for why the AC is doing what he is doing to Nancy is going to do about what the AC is doing.
What’s the point of sitting in your therapist’s office and relaying all of the crap stuff? I’ll bet that this is ground that Nancy has covered again and again with her therapist (hey, I’ve been there!) and said therapist is trying to reinforce the absolute irrelevancy of trying to work out WHY the AC is behaving has he does. Let’s face it: ACs are boring and predictable. They will do what they want, when they want and with no regard for anyone else. Working that bit out is, overall, the easy part of the problem.
The harder part is working out:
(a) how much you’ll put up with;
(b) why you’d put up with any of it; and
(c) when will you pull the pin on a no-win situation.
FWIW.
Getting it!
I also think the councellor should be working on the points you listed, as that is the key:
“(a) how much you’ll put up with;
(b) why you’d put up with any of it; and
(c) when will you pull the pin on a no-win situation.”
I do think however that he is going about it in a couterproductive way. The way he put it to Nancy is not conducive to validading/trusting in her own feelings and it makes her doubt herself. I really don`t see why say ” AC doesn`t mean to hurt you” “he can`t help himself” Without knowing the man he absolves him of responsibility to his relationship with Nancy. Perhaps it`s a style of councelling, a way of getting a reaction out of the patient, as my councellor did it in much the same way, well that or wasn`t very clued up. I broke up with my last AC (the one my councellor encouraged me to go have some fun with despite many flags) because he was an alcoholic, serial liar, manipulative, controlling, started being aggressive and I didn`t trust him. AC reacted to break up, among other things by sending me a text which more or less read:” I now know I`m just one of many in a long line of men you had trust issues with, you`ll never find a relationship, good luck to you” This upset me. My councellor said- well, the AC has a point. My reply was ” WTF?? I was 48 and the long line consisted of 6 men: a cheater, cheater /stalker psychopath,porn addict,a manipulative womaniser/user (money) with weird fetish,an impotent porn addict with pedofile leanings and a controlling alcoholic. All of them liars.Why wouldn`t I have trust issues with them?? I like Natalie`s style better, straightforward, clear, reasonable and empowering, not planting seeds of doubt in an already muddled head.
Nancy —
Does it matter what his intentions are? Whether he means to hurt you or not? The results are the same, right? Do you really care if he cheats on you knowing it hurts you, or because he thinks you are “casual” and somehow ok with it? or because he doesn’t even think of you at all when he makes his decisions? or whatever? Are you waiting for some kind of proof or validation of his intentional malice?
In that one respect I think your therapist has a point — it’s YOUR move now. You may never know his thoughts but have seen his actions. What are YOU going to put up with? Are YOU going to show yourself the respect that he is definitely not showing you?
I spent quite a bit of emotional energy trying to discern for sure whether or not my ex EUM actually meant to be an AC, before I ended things between us– a fruitless exercise that caused damage to me because it prolonged my involvement with him. All I needed to know was that I was very unhappy, because he was beginning to treat me like an option and feed me crumbs.
Now, in hindsight, I think he did love me to the best of his ability, he did not mean to hurt me, he was definitely an AC despite his best intentions, and leaving him was ABSOLUTELY the right and best thing to do.
thank you. I sometimes I don’t think he realizes the hurt he causes, but there are many times it seems very deliberate…when he talks about the things he does with other women. But then again, it’s his ego and wanting me to know that other women adore him. So yes, the bottom line is how I choose to deal with his actions. Right now I put up with it so I reinforce that it’s okay for him to continue his behavior. I say I don’t expect things from him and am just happy for the time he allots to me. But if I’m really honest to myself, I want more. It hurts to know he’s in bed with someone else, saying the same things that he says to me…because I am human and I do have feelings. He’ll never get that. And he is boring, an alcoholic, manipulative, and all about himself. He needs excitement, so has pushed me to do risky things. Is he someone I want to spend my life with? He’ll no. But it scares me to let go..I fear being alone, which is ironic because I really am alone being with him. My issues that I need to work through!
It doesn’t matter what his intentions are. My ex favorite line was “I never meant to hurt you” Wow If I thought you were deliberately trying to hurt me then I would really be insane to be with you. The point is “you do hurt me”!!! And at some level if you are a decent person you know that engaging in asshole behavior means you are an asshole. These guys think it is ok to throw snakes in your car and then apologize and say I never meant to throw poisonous snakes at you. I love u love u love u Words!! Ughh You would think they would have a moment of introspection but doing the right thing is not important to them. Saying and doing what it takes to get you back in their web is the only thing on their mind. You did the right thing for sure!
I suppose its all about living in the ‘now’ and living in ‘reality’ not in some hoping space that they will make you permanent in their life, just go with the flow.
NATALIE, AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! THIS IS WHAT I NEEDED! I just sobbed and laughed through your whole post. I even had to pause for breaks then reread. Wow. You’re amazing.
AMEN to that! Not only did this post, but so many of the responses speak to me, exactly what I needed. It’s articulating what I couldn’t grasp in myself, or least not as eloquently. My epiphany of today: that I am a worthwhile human being and all the assclowns of my past are the losers for not understanding that, and I will not be a loser any more for being complicit in their lies. Like me or lump me, but don’t you dare bullshit me again! Everyday that I read here I gain more insight, today it took an even greater leap. Thank you thank you thank you!
Tired. Thanks so much for the response. Your words have helped and I applaud the progress you are making. It may not be as fast as mine was, initially, but you are getting there. I just want to say and to apologize for my impatience that I’ve expressed with anyone else. You have not been the only one. It’s just that I cannot stand the idea of anyone else going through that pervasive PAIN. As you see, I am still affected. But, I like what you said about it being my “armor” protecting me from having that kind of painful, perverted experience again. Now, you see that I have truly been where you are/have been. This is why I’ve addressed your troubles time and time again. Fortunately, I am doing well and continuing to work hard with my therapist who is helping me. Because it is cognitive behavior therapy, I am asking myself WHY, concerning many past experiences, not only with the MM but other events or circumstances that I feel I never would entertain now. It has been very good for me. I do, as expected, feel much better today. It was temporary, because I was tired, mentally physically exhausted and it was late at night when I wrote. I knew I was feeling temporarily very vulnerable, but in case these feelings and questions return (which they probably will) I wanted to know if anyone else could relate and what there feelings are. Anyone else care to address this? Thanks. This is not off topic because it is all about having experienced the lieing of a person who meets all the qualifications to be labelled a sociopath, and how we’ve also lied to ourselves while being in the relationship so that it can continue.
I knew for a whole year he was lying and when he chased me up a storm i wanted to believe it was because i was walking . No he was using me as a prop , i dont like him but cant like you het my head round why hed lie instead of just cuttinge free . Im off out in a min with my mates and i feeling a tad low as its like im pretending tobe happy when im not , the banter false and the blokes i will look straight thro as there not him . But i know i know hes mot that special why cant i move on as quick as him , so easy to move in him click gone in a blink of a eye . I continue my councelling and i know its my sense of self worth that is broken somtimes i think beyond repair x
Some assclowns lie with such conviction…like they absolutely believe in the BS that comes out of their mouths. Actually, over there, on their assclown planets maybe they really do believe in it. My last ex was one such tricky specimen,cheated on by ex wife ( and wounded, though that gave him a perfect opportunity to leave her as the marriage was dead and she was a witch) so concerned with honesty and honour and all the right things in life…. When I met him (online) he put me through months of what felt like an endless test, questioning, probing, trying to catch me out in a lie. Unsuccesfully. It was like I had to prove myself worthy of his very high standards….Ladies, beware of that sort of thing. He very expertly manouvered all the attention from himself onto me and had me jump through hoops on his terms and …guess what, worrying that I might be not good enough. I was in the spin of conflicting info…some of his behaviour was opposite to his BS crap spewing out of mouth. When my gut screamed and I balked he had an explanation ready- I was needy, crazy and insecure…Yes I was insecure, should have flushed his arse after the first lie. That`s ok. I`ve learnt. Be aware of those who protest too much! Sometimes, just because they are garbage they get paranoid that everyone around them is too. and finally, the day has come that I can say with my hand on my heart that I am happy without him, I feel free!
Emerldeyez. Thank you for your response. I will continue to be strong and take good care of myself. Ironically, I am undoubtedly an addictive personality, formerly to substances, and then to that AC. While I was in the throes of the relationshit, and had recently weaned myself (without having to go to NA, sheer will only) off of narcotics which I had needed for the pain of multiple knee surgeries, my sister asked me, “so is X the new drug?” My tragic need for him was powerful,and of course, I thought I was in love. But, thank God I was able to summon the strength to free myself from both addictions. It’s a new day for me. Onward and upward.
Nancy … you can’t read the man in your lifes mind. You don’t know why he behaves as he does … you are at therapy (just you) and only for you. So the only thing you CAN do is decide if his behavior, intentional, unintentional, conscious, subconscious, AC/EU, all of the above or non of the above is good enough for you. Explore your acceptance of his behavior rather than focusing on him.
Thanks. You are spot on…it’s really not about him at all…it’s about why I think I need him in my life. It’s a process…and a difficult one, but I am determined to get it right. He parades thru his life hurting girl after girl, and gets away with it. Doesn’t seem fair, but I guess that isn’t the point. The point is leaving him and healing myself.
Ok, so I’m a little stuck here. I met this guy through my job where we mainly deal with lots of leasing and investment properties. Part of the job is to build rappor with landlords/investors. One of these landlords went a bit further than that and started acting like he had an interest in me beyond just business. Because I’ve been so hurt in the past (a different AC lead me here), and now I’m a little wiser after reading these posts for nearly a year now, I “slowed my roll”, didn’t sleep with him and paid attention to actions. He told me he wanted to take it slow, which I was fine with. However, when I just wanted to something with him – nothing extreme, just get together since I hadn’t seen him in over a month (and we live in the general area), he freaked out on me a little and then told me he wasn’t interested in a relationship if it meant “entanglements”. So I backed off. He then said that he would be interested, but we needed to take it slow, but then says he likes me but would only want to be married to someone introduced to him by his family – in fact his family has someone in mind, and that if he can break away from his busy schedule, he will fly to his home country (Germany) to meet her for the first time. At the same time he says though re-establishing his roots, getting married and having kids (he’s already 53 and never married btw), is sooooooooo important to him, that he may change his mind if he met “the right person.” Then hints that it “could” work out with us. This was more than I could take so I’ve been texting or emailing instead of calling (using lazy communication to keep him at a distance and try to practice NC as best I can in this situation.) So it was working ok, but then the last couple of times he tried his touchy feely crap on me again, and even kissed me goodbye on the lips. Now I’ve always smelled a rat with him, never had proof, and made to feel like I was a suspicious crazy bitch – until last night. I now have evidence that he hasn’t been “honest” as he says. This guy loves long distance relationships, and he still is having one with someone from Japan – last time I checked Japan isn’t part of Germany. There were other lies too, but what’s important is now I KNOW without a doubt. I’m not crazy, and have “proof” – not that I should have needed it.
Here’s my dilemma: Despite part of me wanting to throw him under the bus, and get found out by other woman he has lied to, or at least get all confrontational with him and let him know that I KNOW, and to stop the bulshitting/gaslighting. Despite this – I know that it’s not worth it, he’s not worth it, and it would most likely be a case of “woman who talk too much” and “telling him all about himself”. He’s delusional enough to believe his own hype, so I don’t know that it would help at all. The problem is that I have been looking for another investment property for him, in the $10 million dollar range. This would mean my share of a single commission for this deal would be over 200K Dollars – roughly 135K British Pounds Sterling.
That’s a lot of money for me, especially for a single transaction. Everyone I’ve asked advice to tells me not to say anything, play dumb, and if he tries again, just say “I’m not interested” in a non-dramatic way. I’m not sure if I can remain unemotional when/if he makes another move on me, and part of me can’t help feeling that I’m betraying myself somehow, and feeding into some of this bullshit if I do anything short of either confronting him or at least never dealing with him again. I don’t know what to do. I’m stuck…Any advice from the wise, beautiful BR ladies (and gents) is welcome.
Uh-huh. Total dipshit. My advice; continue to suck it up, bat your eyelashes, make the sale, bank the cash, fill the curtain rods in his new property with raw prawns, then book a well earned holiday somewhere nice and sunny. Hell, with 200K you could even buy yourself a small assclown free island (we’ll all come and stay!) Meanwhile, his 10K investment becomes utterly worthless when he can’t find a tenant who’ll put up with that stench and he won’t be smart enough to work out where it’s coming from.
It’s WIN/WIN! ie you win, and you win.
Duh, not a 10K investment. 10 million. Hell, I’d marry an assclown with that much money to throw around on an investment property, I’d just make sure I had a great prenup WHICH GASP I THINK IS WHAT TIGER WOODS’ EX WIFE HAS JUST DONE. If he cheats ever again, like ever, Elin gets exactly half of everything.
She’s going to be a verrrry rich lady soon.
I’m with Ms D here. My morals only stretch so far. Bank the cheque and then, and only then, if you really have to, tell him all about himself. However, if he really is the AC he appears to be (grade A) then I wouldn’t count on making that sale anyway. Just a thought.
Hi La Gioconda,
You wrote: “part of me can’t help feeling that I am betraying myself somehow…” If this is how you really feel, then the money isn’t worth it. It’s blood money. Your self respect is worth more. Maybe walking away from a potential windfall is what you need to do to prove something important to yourself.
However, from what you have said, I’m not clear that you have to compromise your integrity. It seems like you could just move forward and keep it all “strictly business”, and reap the benefits of your own business competence. There doesn’t need to be any lies, pretense, “playing dumb”, drama, or any BS at all. Just you doing your job. And being justly rewarded.
You have the complete info — you’ll know what to do! 🙂
Tinkerbell, I’m writing this from my phone so I apologize for any typos. You said that you came from happy family so you’re trying to understand how good people get mixed up with bad people, correct? You became addicted to drugs as result of pain from knee surgeries. The brain is so complex & drugs affect the brain in a myriad of ways. One doesn’t have to start with low self-esteem for drug addiction to occur. The “right” chemical hits the “right”place in brain &that’s it. Addiction is set in motion as is low self-esteem as there are brain chemicals that affect self-esteem as well. The amygdala is the place in brain where emotions are & “fight or “flight” response resides. Drug addiction is like a parasite that eats up all the natural chemicals so that you need to take in artificial ones & need to take more & more to keep up with the gluttonous parasite residing in the amygdala (I’m assuming).
My choices are rooted in childhood & it’s a “brain thing” as well as these experiences started when I was a baby when the brain is still in formation. We can “re-wire” our brain in some ways even in adulthood, which is padt of reason why I cry over every post. Because I’ve worked so hard on myself & changed so much & am feeling for the first time, have authentic & healthy friendships for the first time, when I experience something abusive, such as being used for sex, it feels like a trauma even though it’s not a new experience, ceryainly not something unique to me nor is it objectively trauma-worthy considering I live in the midst of a hook-up culture.
Does any of this make sense to anybody??
Speaking of deceit, I think I may be deceived. Maybe I *should* feel a little traumatized or, at least, offended by someone’s abuse (trying to use me for sex as if I’m a disposable blow up doll he can take out in public). Maybe the problem’s my culture that doesn’t take this seriously enough?
Rosie
It,s as old as humankind that some men will exploit women for sex.
You though, I hope, live in a world where you can say no.
You don,t have to feel offended or outraged to do that. You just have to not want to.
Wow, just to say a huge thankyou Natalie!!
I have recently discovered who I thought to be the love of my life is infact the excuse of a man that you describe to a T!!
I have doubted myself, and even now I have uncovered the extent of his lies, starting a relationship with another woman behind my back, while I play home with his children over the holidays, and planning our future with our baby as I am also recently pregnant.
With this situation, it is easy to doubt yourself, & wonder if you are doing what is best by your unborn child at moments of upset & weakness. Your words reassured me at such a moment, that I can do a better job for my child, without being in such an unhappy situation and living a life of someone else’s lies.
I will, unfortunately probably continue to love him, but I have realised that I need to put my own & my babies happiness first. It seems the other woman is completely taken with his lies, even to the extent of being quite nasty with me, even about the baby. Although angry, hurt & upset I know that she is yet to realise what she has actually broken her own marraige up for! I take comfort in the belief of ‘karma’.
All in all, I really want to thank you for these refreshingly honest words….I will print this to keep as a reminder for those moments of upset as reassurance. Thank you again!!
Out of all Nat’s posts this one, I think, is most relevent to what happened to me. I was blindsided by the BIGGEST WHOOPER of them all (an OW my deceased ex AC was involved with, all the whilst, while making noises about a possible future with me)! I’d gone NC over other BS (you guessed it, involving other lies previously), but never having the full picture of what was going on, allowed myself to be sucked into breaking it, as I was drip fed along the way, to deliberately, play the ‘pity / poor me’ card, which I stupidly, fell for. Eventually, I started to put 1 + 1 together & decided to SEARCH for myself, to see if what I by now suspected, was indeed the case. I had no qualms about contacting the OW (his child’s Mother), introducing myself & asking for clarification on what, if anything, had been going on. When I learned the truth, my only regret was not making that call sooner, as I’d had a funny feeling something wasn’t kosher for a few months, but couldn’t put my finger on what it was. I actually never expected it to be what it was though, as I thought his BS was associated with his addiction issues; in hindsight, foolish & nieve of me. I then let him HAVE IT & never spoke to him again. Good riddance! I needed that crap like a hole in the head! Sad he later died but predictable he died totally ALONE. This is how these cretins wind up. It happens.
PS And get this for nieve. When I contacted this woman, it was to ask did she know ANYONE ELSE this guy might be romantically involved with, NOT her. I only contacted her, as sharing a child with him, I thought she might know & be able to clue me in. When she said, um yeah, ME, I was GOBSMACKED. Talk about being willfully & deliberately misled. It was HORRIBLE being treated so badly by my ex deceased AC, but a big relief to finally understand WHY (ie he was concealing/ hiding the other relationship!). Honesty is now TOP of my list of must haves for a relationship. It always was, which is why I fought so bitterly with this guy & had long periods of NC but now, I don’t care who a person is (in this case he was an ex I’d loved from decades before playing on my old feelings for him), NC will happen ONCE after an honesty infringement. Life is TOO SHORT for BS & I’m an honest person & have a right to expect the same in return! Lesson learned!!!
Tinkerbell, Me too! Once the alcohol and drugs were gone, it was the relationship issue and it has plagued me for years. I know when I am the most vulnerable, and where I go thinking something, some man, outside myself is going to be my answer, my comfort, and I give up my soul. The web of lies is huge, my denial system can be very strong. No more. Slowly, the chinks in his armor are shown. the lies contradict themselves, the dates and times don’t jive, the saved texts are different than his words. And no amount of very LOUD protesting on his part, can outweigh what I knew in my heart. I just had to get ready to let go and be strong to stay no contact. I couldn’t even say I loved him anymore, because I would look at him and just say to him and myself, ” Who are you?”
And yes, he is stalking me. If I get another card, or if he shows up at my door, I am going to call the police. I am out here alone, all my family are in the midwest. I moved out here for the AC so he knows that I have a handful of friends. It is really stupid of him because he has two warrants out for his arrest from an incident back in July, when he took the keys out of my truck and left me and my dogs stranded and then got a harrassment charge for giving the police a hard time. We have really been broken up since then, yet he kept showing back up and I would break down only for it to get worse each time.
Nancy, If he is truly a narcissist or a sociopath, the hallmark is lack of empathy. They don’t have the capacity to know how they are hurting someone. And they have no remorse. So your therapist is very right. She or he is basically saying he is an AC, EUM, Narc whatever you want to call him and his relationship is power and control. Not love. SO you have to decide to walk because he will just continue to use you up, till he finds his next victim, and move on with no remorse as to the pain it has caused you.
Nancy,
I heard, I was out camping for the night, I’m out driving, I’m on my motorcyle when I can’t sleep, I shut off my phone, my phone was charging, I left it in the car I was working on. He had me in the car, when the ow drove up and he told me, he was working on her daughter’s car, and she was dropping off money and he told her I was a friend asking him advice about a job. I was in town from Chicago, spending a four day weekend with him. He would tell her he was on a motorcyle ride for the weekend when I was over. He lied to us both, he was real fast on his feet.And not the least bit nervous, it was all so believable. She later wrote me and then we got in contact with each other and compared notes. He had us at the same time and according to her there were others. AND HE DENIED IT ALL. Said we were the psychos! And lesbians and on and on. Sorry I am writing this for myself, because it seems to be cathartic to realize the BS I swallowed day in and day out, it’s a wonder I didn’t change colors. There’s a saying out there- mushrooms are feed Sh*t and kept in the dark. That’s what happens to us.
I, too, had contact with one of my AC’s other woman, and we found out that we probably passed each other on the road when I was arriving as she was leaving. I always wondered why he would take a shower before we had sex…well because he had just slept with her an hour before. Really? She dumped his ass and went AC. Now she won’t even talk to me because I still see him. I wish I had her strength.
Oh…and when I went on a trip with him, he told her that it was a business trip and I was an old family friend. LOL. Guess they all use the same lines, huh? Wow, when I write this, it makes me realize how dumb I am. I have pages and pages of the things he has done to humiliate me. Should be enough but I still hang on. Shows me that I have a lot of work to do on ME.
Nancy, it’s still shocking to read stories like yours, and I remember myself being in your situation and believing in some BS my EX AC used to say. Once I saw him sitting in the Chinese restaurant with beautiful blonde girl, and later he called me and suggested to meet me. He said: “Guess where I am?” I said: “You are in my area, I just saw you with beautiful blonde girl!” And you know what his answer was: “Oh, this is my friend’s wife, she is a nurse and she gave me few advices how to look after my sick Mother…” I DID NOT believe in his BS but why I met him after that…NO IDEA WHY?! It was MENTAL addiction and I am just praying to GOD that I WOULD NEVER SEE OR HEAR from him again:(
How is it that these clowns actually manage to come up with such near plasible BS explanations at the drop of a hat without blinking an eye? My exMM has left me wondering sometimes how much of what he told me about coming clean and seeing a counsellor with his wife was actually true (considering how untruthful he was through our ‘relationshit’, and to his wife and everyone else in his life, why would I believe him at this juncture?). I know it doesn’t matter, but if what he told me in our last convo was a lie, the extent to which these guys can stretch the truth is mind boggling…I think it just boils down to what other posters have said before in that unless you have the mind of a narc\socio\psychopath, you can’t wrap your head around what they do. It’s a lucky break that I’m not his wife…
My exMM won my sympathy last year when his wife found out about his canoodling on the side. Shame on me – I was desperate to keep him on as a friend. All last year, he reported to me how hard he was working on patching things with his wife: counseling, treatment of his depression, SAA meetings. Late in the summer, he said that he didn’t need to go to SAA anymore, and his wife gave him her support. Early this fall, he all of a sudden stops talking to me for a few weeks; claims he’s really “busy” with work. Then, he’s back on my radar, needing my friendship. I kept buying his BS. I wanted to be his friend so badly. In December, he confesses that during that time of silence, he was having another affair. He blamed his depression and his wife’s “repression”. Why is this coming up? The new OW came clean to his wife (the OW was their son’s teacher!). Once again, the exMM waxes on and on about how horrible he is, how ashamed he is, as his wife is not threatening to divorce him. I find that I am much less able to listen to his constant whine. Oh, guess what? Two weeks ago, he tells me that he’s “really busy” again, and doesn’t have much time to keep in touch. Gee, I wonder what’s going on? For a few days, I was angrily consumed with the thought, “He’s now probably effing his other son’s teacher”. Then, Natalie wrote this magical column, and I realized the real problem. I have allowed this man and his lies to be part of my reality for going on three years. I am tired of trying to make sense of his insanity. I’m done.
Correction: his wife is NOW threatening to divorce him.
Posting that previous reply left me hot and angry… and then I had time to reflect on my situation. No, it is never ok for someone to drip-feed you the truth, but what about the case where you are in a fantasy relationship with this person? This applies to me. My so-called love-affair with the MM was hot in 2010, dried up and ended in 2011, and in 2012, I stuck around as a friend / fall-back girl, offering my support as he claimed wanting to mend his cheating ways and make a better life for myself. I am disappointed that he lied to me (and to himself) about that, but I have to acknowledge the fantasy that I brought to the table. I wanted to be important and on intimate terms with him. It is perhaps not surprising that he isn’t going to tell an ex the moment he gets involved with a new woman. I am not his partner or his best friend. This latest disappointment is once again making me wonder why I keep seeking out his friendship and his drama, making his problems my problems. Its helping me, once again, see not only that he’s a chronic liar, but that I create my own delusion by feeding into his drama. It’s high time that I stop focusing on his problems, and spend that energy on myself.
Men still call the women that catch on to their bullshit “lesbians” as a means of insult? That makes me laugh uncontrollably. How very very sad. / sarcasm
This entire post is outstanding, but the following
are some of the truest words ever spoken, written and typed:
When people lie and cheat, they remove your right of reply to the truth as it stands.
That is what gets me the most about lying and cheating – removing my basic human right to make a proper decision. The mind-fuckery is what angers me the most after that.
Along with being an outstanding post, this is also a great refresher post to read multiple times. As always, thanks.
Spinster… I will second your post..
If they want out just say it don’t go around behind my back meeting other woman then lying about it. It’s all about them & I forget that part alot when ruminating..
Spinster,
The other thing that angers me is that you´re left with trust issues once they´ve lied and cheated… at the moment I´m completely closed off to the possibility of (ever) having a relationship because I don´t want any bloke to screw me over again, you know? It´s like I developed an aversion to love because I trusted the sob, how unfair is that?
Lilia, I feel exactly like you…I am so disappointed of men, I just want to have a long/peaceful break from them:(
Really good article. Sadly discovered that the relationship with the narcissist was a total lie. I’m out if it & now to work on authenticity I. Every area in my life.
Great stuff!
I’m in a relationship with a married man. I’m a married woman. I’ve had no contact for 6 months and last week we met. Now I’ve talked with him on the phone several times. I’m addicted to this man. How do I break this addiction? I’ve been to counseling for over a year. Nothing seems to work for me. I’ve tried journaling, reading umpteen self-help books, no contact many times, notes to myself, getting rid of all reminders of him. I have only confided in my counselor and my best friend. I think she is exasperated with me. I feel like I have no where to turn. Neither of our spouses have a clue. Do I need to tell my husband?
I don’t think he can take it. It would destroy him. Is it selfish of me to tell him just to help rid myself of the guilt? In my mind I have 3 choices: 1. tell husband, 2. continue to see mm, or to end it for myself. Please help, anyone??
(3) End it.
(4) Take some responsibility for your actions.
(5) Tell your husband so he can decide what he wants to do with the information.
(6) If you aren’t an AC yourself then you should feel guilty for your actions.
(7) Why do you care whether the information would destroy your husband? If you really cared about this, you wouldn’t have acted this way to start with.
(8) Repeat (4) as often as is needed.
Ella Rae,
I agree with Getting it!
Don`t tell your husband to relieve your guilt, tell him so he can make a choice,we all deserve a choice based on reality.I really feel for you.
ella, you break the addiction by stopping to act on your impulses. but you gotta make that choice.
you gotta ask yourself if you want to be with your husband, be alone, or be the OW to the MM. these are your choices. you can’t have it all. trust me, i tried.
Ella Rae, whatever it is you are talking about, it is not a relationship, it is some kind of fantasy. You are not addicted to the man himself, you’re addicted to the fantasy. How can you be addicted to a man you had no contact to for 6 months? Yes, it is selfish to use your clueless husband as a therapist, yes, it is selfish to unburden yourself on him. Go for option 3 (you did not put a number on it) and end it. Then use the space to sort yourself and your marriage. And keep reading this site. And read Natalie’s books, read the Fantasy-one first, urgently, this will spare you years of therapy, and a ton of personal embarrassment, seeing your “relationship” for the commonplace affair it is. Hugs!
@Ella Rae, love is action based on honesty, trust, and respect. You do not
respect your husband, and he could no longer trust or respect you. Love is lost.
If you want to regain the love, stay married to him, grow old together, cope with his diabetes or Altzheimer’s or whatever adversity you will eventually face don’t tell him. If you have empathy for his feelings and if this knowledge would destroy him keep it your dirty little secret to your grave. And end the addiction (which is the high of a hormonal response which lust triggers)by going cold turkey. Your going “no contact many times” was never no contact. No contact
is forever. Detox, go through withdrawl, soul search and the addiction will eventually pass with
permanent no contact and the passage of time.
Otherwise you will continue to chose the high of this drug while it lasts and watch how the lives of all involved
become degraded.
Everything you have done has been selfish of you. Your husband is not your priority. Tell him so he can move on and find someone who wants to be committed to him. Then you’ll be freed up to make the next set of choices you’ll face.
Hi Ella Rae,
besides that all the other BR- Friends
are right (that you should end your relation or/ and be honest to your husband): What do you want? What`s your goal?
Your words show that you are not happy with your situation, not happy to be the OW. Do you wait for your MM to make a decision for you? Would you leave your husband if this man would ask you to do so?
I know you´re not deliberately in this situation…
And you see that MM so rarely… Please read Natalies book “The dreamer and the fantasy relationship” (!) and be honest with yourself: How well(really well!) do you this other man?
A married friend of mine once fell in love with an married AC, who charmed several unhappily married women/ mothers(as she later found out). He talked about love, promised he would leave his wife, if she´d leave her family. Talked about a second marriage, other children together… Well, my friend was so in love with this man, that she asked her husband of 15 years for a divorce! But instead of being happy and making his promises real, her MM cooled off and dumped her quickly. Later my friend found out that he did this to at least one other married women before- not expecting that some married mother would really leave her home for him. Actually he wanted just his fun and playing mind games- behind the back of his wife!
Surely: Not all men are the same- but be careful and make a reality check!
And if the love for your husband is really gone- you must tell him. It´s only fair to give him the chance to make his own decisions, too!
.
@Ella Rae,
I think maybe you need a break.. Totally on your own to sort things out for yourself. Make sure you maintain NC. Think what brought you there in the first place, and how you should fix the original problem. Set your priorities straight. Do you want to save your marriage? I think the root of the problem needs to be unveiled first. I was almost there once.
Before I discovered my ex was a narc AC, I was in limbo. I got in a casual flirtationship with a committed man, the chemistry was crazy. He had a gf and 2 daughters. He was clear he’s not leaving her. I still appreciate his honesty if that makes any sense. Then I had a blow, one that got me thinking where I’m heading and what I want. That was when I decided I’d give this marriage one last but strong chance. I saw a counselor and I did all I could to save the marriage (not that I hadn’t tried before) but doing it in awareness that if it fails, I’d opt out. When the narc showed his very true colours, I told him it was over and that was when everything made sense. I’m not encouraging you to leave your husband. Mine was an AC/EUM/narc and everything that comes with those; the abuse, manipulation, and mind fuckery. Thing is, I got to the bottom of it. Maybe for you, you just need to rekindle the spark with the husband… or see couples therapy. I don’t know, that’s for YOU to figure out.
Weirdly enough, after I took that decision, the other fling didn’t seem all that attractive to me (the idea, not the person)… I became more inclined to look for a healthier relationship, one with a future rather than one that’s doomed in its crib.
I really hope you can find your way in this road instead of floundering and lingering between two worlds. Reminder: None of this is or will be easy, but you gotta stay strong and face it head on.
@Ella-Rae:
You and he are both being disrespectful, selfish and manipulative. There are two people here who you are both jerking around; his wife and your husband.
I would personally not tell my husband; I would tell him that I am unhappy, that our marriage is broken, and that I have too much respect for him to drag him through a gutter “figuring out” my feelings.
Is it really that hard to figure out what the right thing to do is, here? How would you feel if you loved someone and they were sneaking around your back, talking about how “addicted” they were to someone else, and debating whether or not they should tell you on a relationship website page. You would be shocked, hurt, you would wonder how they could be so cold and self-focused to be debating all this while deliberately keeping you in the dark to keep the status wou where they are comfortable. Please don’t kid yourself; you have a reason that you have stayed with your husband and it is not just pity for him, please.
I know I sound harsh but in my mind I am confused how you could read this post, about lying and cheating, and not feel pretty badly about how sneaky you are being. Step up.
I see now that my ex and I just couldn’t sustain the intimacy. I think we really liked each other and have had a lot of quirks and troubles that resonated.
The intimacy was too much. Neither of us could handle it. I’m seeing things less as me a fallback girl and he as Mr Unavailable and more of it as me a chronically depressed anorexic/compulsive eater and he as a needy alcoholic.
Yes, the ailments slot each of us into the previously mentioned labels. They are true. What prompted me to read Mr Unavailable and the Fallback girl was my ego. I thought, “Oh, hell no, who me, I don’t want to be a fallback girl. I don’t want to be THAT kind of woman.”
It was easier to fight against being a fallback girl than fight for myself against my eating disorders. Yes, my ex and I were two broken souls who found each other to try and soothe the pain, while only creating more for ourselves. The thing about seriously broken people is that as hard as they may try, they can’t fix each other or make each other happy, they can only be sick together.
I now know my ex and I won’t be together and that an addictive relationship is not good for both people involved. Cutting complete contact was the best thing for the both of us. I really did care about this person. It was limited though. As I was a limited human being barely functioning. I’m not much better. I’m still a compulsive eater. I’m still an insomniac and life is still really painful. I don’t know how to deal with loss. It’s really painful and baffling to me. Ever since I lost my mother I lost hope. Hope in life, hope that situations can improve. I feel robbed of her presence and love. I tried to fill it with a mentally ill man like her. Creepy sounding. But creepy as it is, it’s what us humans do.
I feel like a big giant infant making a complete fucking mess of my life each and every day.
For what it is worth JT I can see parallels in my own relationshit with ex narc. I have food issues and he is a cokehead. We both have raging mummy issues. His abandoned/rejected him and mine is a hypercritical manipulative narc. I do still feel that we did fit the Mr U/FB girl scenario though in that really (shh!/secretly) I was just as unavailable and fucked up in my own little ways. Fortunately I can heal and grow. He cannot. His disorder is permanent and pervasive. Not my problem any more. Healing myself.
Hi Victorious,
Thanks for the reply.
Who am I kidding? I’m a Fallback girl and he a classic mummy’s boy Mr Unavailable. I tend to romanticize everything. Everything is such a HUGHE drama for me. I remember I cried on the way home from a date after I had declined an invitation to spend the night with my ex (his mom was out of town). I have a job that just isn’t doing it for me. I’ve been there a few years and am unsatisfied and I’ve acted like it’s a matter of a King dethroning himself and leaving a bunch of helpless subjects to fend for themselves. I’m a clerk. I make minimum wage. It’s my first job out of college. I have an inverted ego the size of Texas.
jennifer tiffany, i feel for you. they do say that water seeks its own level. keep working on yourself and you’ll get there.
are you seeing a therapist?
natashya,
If water seeks its own level (which I believe it does) then I am screwed. I get better and then I hit these plateaus/brick walls, regress and end up at square one. Funny, I’ve given advice on this, and now I’m here. Life is so gut wrenchingly humbling at times. Seeing the replies of fellow BR women, ALWAYS helps, though.
Yes ma’am, I am in therapy. It’s kind of a must for me.
JT, keep on working at it. i do believe that with hard work we will get there.
i look around me and do see some people in healthy relationships. why them and not me? well, first of all THEY are healthy people. they don’t find their partners in the isles of assclowns unlimited (TM). they have healthy self esteem and yes, i do believe like attracts like.
it is impossible for 1 healthy and 1 unhealthy person to have a healthy relationship. and THAT’s wy need to keep on working on it. when we are healthy women, we won’t even give these losers as second glance.
Jennifer Tiffany,
think about the positive things that you have already done for yourself. You realised that you can`t heal each other. You rejected being a FBG.You are in NC.Infants don`t do that.
Loss is not creepy and neither is trying to find ways to deal with it.
Nobody on this planet is 100% perfect and healthy,and has their shit together, it`s a myth. You don`t need to deal with all the issues you have and think you have at once, too overwhelming. I found that thinking of any positives that I might have in the day gives me a push out of negativity. If it`s chronic depression maybe you need to see a doctor for meds for a while.Hugs.
sushi,
You are right. I have done things infants don’t do. I have done a lot of proactive things, I just get in these really inactive slumps. Meds probably wouldn’t be a bad idea for me. I’m trying find other routes though, as I suffered some pretty gnarly side effects the last time I tried medication for depression. But my therapist has even suggested it, so it might be wise to take it into consideration. All I want to do these days is blog, facebook, read, practice my guitar and lay in bed and eat cookies, though I feel like all I do is mostly work. Though, I have had a few days off from work and that is exactly what I have done.
Espoir. Thank you very much for going back, reading and responding to what I said. I will follow up on the link, etc. A big hug from me to you.
@Tinkerbell don’t worry about those feelings that you had from reading the post. Often, something will trigger a memory in our minds but all they really should be are that: memories and the emotions associated with them. They could be there as a reminder of what to do or what not to do. Regardless, you are still a strong person, and congrats on a great relationship! You pointed out that our childhoods aren’t what defines us completely. Well as the originator of said topic, I read your post and realized I was putting too much blame on my family for decisions that I did get their input on, but were ones that I ultimately made. So…thanks for that wake-up call!! 🙂
@ Robin. I’m feeling better. It was a flashback. I became saddened after reading that post, almost thinking maybe I need to quit BR if I’m going to have these reminders. I’ve been here reading for nearly 2 years and have not been affected that way before. But the truth is that, as you have said, we will have triggers. We don’t have to allow them to throw us into a funk, but be happy we came out of the darkness into the light. Thanks, Robin.
Ella Mae. I think despite engaging in various endeavors to help yourself out of the rut you remain stuck. Are you plagued by low self-esteem? As I ask you that I know the answer. People who truly like who they are don’t get into such horrible situations like adultery. You BOTH are worried. Look at how many lives the two of you are wrecking. Is it really worth it? Nothing has helped you because you don’t really want the help. We cannot receive when our hand is closed. Open yourself up to change. You can do it. Before hurting your husband with such a soul-destroying confession, lose the loser. NOW! You know this can come to no good end. Your husband does not deserve this. Are there children involved, yours and his? Think of them. The longer you wallow in this muck the WORSE your life will become. Not better.
Ella, I meant to say you both are MARRIED.
Ms D
I do on occasion make these dudes meet me here, but in town if I we have some mutual acquaintances so I know I am not meeting an ax murderer. I am very different looking (triracial), very well known, and live in a very unique house visible on a hill. After being stalked back in Montana, I am very safety concious. Due to this location, suitable men can be very far away and it seems only right to meet em half way. This is what happened with Mr. Marathon runner who was actually ready to have a heart attack. Days are gettin longer, a lot of dances locally and no damned one worth dancing with, race season gearing up and ol Miskwa is tired of being alone 24/7 so am thinking of trying the on line thing again. Also trying to see if I can go on sabbatical but may have missed the deadline for next year; never could handle paperwork.
Miskwa, are there mountaineering or hiking clubs in your vicinity? You have so many interests, isn’t it possible to practice some of them on a club basis? I’m asking because I go caving and wherever I’m in the world, I establish contact to the local cavers. You are an amazing lady, I cannot grasp how it can be that people are not drawn to you in hoards!
or set up a club? Hiking holidays? Get like minded people to come out to you?
Miska- maybe try to fill out the paperwork this week and get the sabbatical, I get the feeling a break and/or change would do you good. Set the alarm and knock out the paperwork. Online will be more of the same. I just bought a bunch of furniture to ‘make roots’ and joined a new gym and made efforts to make more friends- who are inevitably busy with their family. I am accepting it and now switching gears yet again (after a traumatic move)sending out resumes to other cities. I tried. I might have to do it afraid. If you cant move, take a break and do a long trip. Some times a bigger shake up is required.
The LDR thing seems quite normal in the States. What do you do if you meet someone you like? Do you both drive a lot or fly interstate to see each other?
I hope you do meet someone very special because you sound like the best person ever. And of course you are unique looking (I bet you’re gorgeous) and have a home to match, on a hill no less, nothing else would do. Your life sounds so exotic to me, being stuck here in a big city with all that it brings. I know we all get tired of our own situations, especially when it feels like we’re doing it all alone but goddamn it, your life sounds awesome to me (with a sabbatical in the offing too!)
I think someone else said it, but I would soooo date you if I was a guy (erm, and lived in America, Oz is a bit far for an LDR).
Miskwa,
Like you, I have no way of meeting people (partners AND friends) where I live. Even ‘meetup’ groups seem to flounder, or if they exist they are expensive activities or filled with people I don’t want to hang around with. In the almost six years I’ve been back here (my hometown) I’ve made a total of NO friends (work acquaintences that never amount to anything don’t really count as far as I’m concerned). Very few women in their 40’s and 50’s work (they’re married and don’t need to) and a single woman in her late 40’s is looked at as kind of pathetic. The pool of available men in this age bracket is very small, and of those men 95% seem to think that they are deserving of a 29 year old with a perfect body, or they have enough baggage they need to charter their own plane to Fantasy Island. And if I DO find a suitable guy he’s usually far away and dating involved more wear and tear on my already ancient car…and they inevitably flake out on my anyway. My younger child will start college, my older one is there already, so I no longer need my town’s public schools. So I’m sending out the resumes starting next month, packing up the house and the dog, and moving to a city where I DO have friends, where being a single woman isn’t considered a flaw, where people are out and about, where what I do for a living (teaching ESL) is considered important.
I’m scared because I’ll be pissing off some family members. But none of them socialize with me, so it’s not as if they’ll miss my companionship. And I’m only going a few hours away. But I’m tired of being alone, I’m tired of having no one to call up and say, “Let’s go get a cup of coffee” or “Come over and watch some crap TV with me”.
In the meantime, the thought of doing this big move is keeping me off the dating site merry-go-round because I’m not going to start something with someone and then move six months from now. It is kind of a relief to be able to put that aside for a while and just focus on what I want and need for right now.
So, the moral of this story…if you can do it, move!
Sunyata … love the analogy. I suppose you could stand there and say, “quit falling on me. That hurts!” Beg, plead, think if you love the boulders enough they’d see your loyalty and stop. Er … no. You gotta get out of the way.
Guess the “red flags” are the “falling rocks ahead” signs? And guess what? That’s what rocks do. To EVERYBODY. They roll down hills and hurt those in their paths. Without any thought to their actions. I like this analogy. It fits. Lol!
I just stopped dating a “man” that I met around Christmas. I hadn’t dated anyone in three years as the last person I was with was very emotionally abusive and lied about everything. My newest “date” came on like a stormtrooper when he met me, texting me constantly, telling me how excited he was to date me finally. We went out several times and had fun. After a week he pulled back, only texting me on occasion and when he wanted to “hang out.” He would make plans with me than blow me off. I found out that he was chasing after many of the women I worked with ( I worked at a restaurant/bar) and after catching him in a lie on New Years I told him I wasn’t interested in dating him anymore. This prompted him to come on again like gangbusters and he began texting me regularly. I fell back and went out with him one more time. I was laid off from the restaurant and since then I have only heard from him once, where he intimated that he wanted to see me sometime soon. The guy is obviously a player and I have no interest in pursuing anything with this man so my question is, do I tell him again or just use the no contact rule and ignore his texts etc..?
Fran,
Considering how he treated you – blowing you off – and the fact you have only been on 2 dates, I would ignore.
Good luck with the job hunt!
fran, he’s a grade A assclown. his flip flapping behaviour doesn’t deserve any explanations. i’d go NC on him without telling him. let him figure it out.
@Fran,
I’d say NC. These guys think you’re just playing the same ol’ “hard to get” game, I suppose when you say No. The NC is a breakthrough, thanks to Nat. He seems bad news anyway, so NC is peace of mind as well. Any other thoughts, ladies?
you’re right msa…i’ve been nc for almost a week and the only issue i have with it is that i want to tell him off so badly! i know it will fall on deaf ears but there’s just a part of me inside that wants to tell him what a f*@ker he is!
Fran,
This guy is a jerk. No contact rule stat. I wouldn’t kid yourself into this, I need to initiate it in person/gotta have closure BS. You don’t owe him anything. Getting laid off from that restaurant sounds like a blessing in disguise. Get as far away from this Mr Unavailable player as you can. God, he sounds like such a frickin pain in the ass. You deserve better. Do not engage and move on. The sad thing is, these men don’t deserve the ANY of the attention they get from women.
Right about now I’m feeling like a complete asshat. A week nc with this guy…felt pretty good about making a stand and walking away from his bs. Just when I’m feeling really good I get a text, then two, then three…so I respond. He apologizes and I cave…tells me he wishes he could kiss me until I tell him I love him and bullshit like that. We texted for most of the day and I told him how I felt which he blatantly ignored only to continue with his “love talk”…then silence..after three years of being single and working on my shit, I still caved. I blocked his number from my cell, as I should have a week ago…I can’t help feeling ridiculous though.
Trust your instincts. Ignore the guy.
Fran, if you only went out with him a few times you don’t owe him an explanation. I’d just go NC. Really, if he’s not putting out effort for you why bother putting out effort explaining?
Thank you all for your comments. Being a people pleaser has always been an issue for me and I’m always concerned about “hurting” someones feelings…ridiculous considering how this guy behaved. Funny, after reading some of the articles on this page I couldn’t believe how well he fit the bill of the ‘assclown” On our second date he began talking about us going to Italy together and even made the comment ” Well, we’d have to be married to take a trip like that.” Yikes! Thanks again for the reinforcement…being strong ain’t easy but its feeling pretty darn good right about now!
Fran!
So glad you made it here to BR. You need to be concerned about YOUR hurting, not hurting others. I know this sounds crazy right now, but us Fallback girls rarely if ever think of our feeling, how it effects us and what we need. It’s time to start thinking about you. And in a good way.
Jennifer, Thank you for your support. I’m very glad I stumbled upon BR. The articles have been so helpful and the posts are truly wonderful. One of the aftershocks of being abused almost my entire life has been to learn to listen to my instincts and that I’m not responsible for others hurting. My gut instincts were right with this guy and its funny, after the second date ( and the Italy comment) I told him I couldn’t see him anymore. He threw a fit and acted like he was so hurt and angry. I talked to him after a few days and we went out one more time he said he wanted to talk things out. He didn’t he just wanted to make out and get his ego stroked. He contacted me once since then and now silence. I’m glad to be rid of him and his games…Feeling better every day, not that I was heartbroken or anything. I just feel stupid that I fell for his crap!
baa haa haa! Mine did that. Seriously. The trip to Italy. Lake Garda or Lake Como, we hadn’t quite decided. Might even have been the first date. By the third date he had decided we would buy a smallholding together and we were choosing the animals/colour of the Aga. Future Faking Fast Forwarding Narc Fucker.
Victorious, How funny is that? After he made the comment I really just wanted to laugh in his face. I just moved on to the next topic of conversation ( which should have been, “How are we splitting the check cuz I’m outa here!”) When we first met I told him I wasn’t into bar hopping or casual sex. He obviously read that and decided to play the “lets plan a future together” card..These boards are wonderful because they not only help work things out and give support, but they also help me realize that I’m not the only one who has gone through this which does make me feel better inside…thanks!
Rosie, its funny, even though we only went out a few times,he would text me daily, and many times during the day at that. After reading the article about Mr Unavailable the texting thing really hit home. That was the only way he would contact me ever. The only time he actually called me was the night of our first date. Lesson learned..
I am SO freaked out tonight. I was ‘befriended’ by a guy a couple of weeks ago who tonight turned out to be not only full of BS but also, a WHACKJOB. I was ALREADY in a fragile condition & this was the LAST thing I needed right now. SO wish I’d NEVER met this effwit! It’s had serious repercussions & I’m so furious. Who do these IDIOTS think they are? Some guys should be flat out lined up against a wall & shot! Just glad I saw the mask fall so quickly (only 3rd time I’d met him). UGHHHHH!!!!
teachable, I think some people can sense when we’re at our most vulnerable and use that to their advantage. I’ve certainly had that happen to me on several occasions. Be grateful that you saw the mask fall early on and not years from now.
Mat, I’m not sure if there’s a diff b.tween major trust issues & just trust issues, but I wonder why they were a crimson flag. Notwithstanding someone being overly intrusive, where no cause was given for need of this, I’m not sure I understand. I have trust issues. I don’t know if they are major or a normal amount for any female dating in the modern age. The fact is that women (& some men, but proportionally, a great many more women than men) ARE taken advantage of, used & abused in our society in a myriad of ways. Are you saying women ought to be simply trusting? I ask, as I recently was, in a normal fashion (ie I don’t become distrusting until given reason to be by an individual & certain lines are never crossed with ANYONE so not an issue, such as never lending $ etc). I’ve just had a sitch where even being trusting, but alert, in just a normal way this blew up spectacularly in my face though, so yes, I now WILL be LESS trusting in a similar sitch, in future. To me this is learning from exp of being burned. Are you suggesting this is wrong somehow? I’m interested to understand yr point of view.
I would add for me, that if I was embarking on an intimate r.ship w someone, that I would openly discuss my trust issues with them & provide context for them, at the appropriate time. I personally think that any guy worth his salt would, after hearing WHY I have trust issues, be very respectful & take things very slowly at the pace I was comfotable with. if he wasn’t prepared to do this, it would indicate to me we are not well matched & that he isn’t genuinely interested for long haul. If a guy WAS serious abt me he would be more than happy to be patient, knowing all along he hoped to win me over for good as his partner.
teachable, I actually did this! I told my new bf that I was not by nature a jealous or possessive person but I had trust issues I was working through from my last r/s. I said I owned them and they were mine to process and had nothing to do with him. I had already told him that sex had to be exclusive for me to be comfortable. He has not given me a moment of insecurity or doubt and shows me in every way that he is in with both feet. (A term my ex AC used toward the end. He said “I realize for us to be together, I have to have both feet in.” By then, the ex AC and I were too far gone for me to ever trust him again.) I have no reason not to trust my new bf so my trust “issue” hasn’t been an issue at all. Writing this makes me realize that the ex AC is the one with the trust problem in that he proved himself untrustworthy. I trust myself to be capable of evaluating each person and situation in my life on his/her/its facts and don’t have to live in a prison of distrust just because of an AC.
@ Teachable
I don’t believe that works. My exAC insisted that we “talk about everything, be honest with eachother, and work things thru”.
I feel that we revealed our “trus” issues in appropriate time in the relationshit – one of mine being I had been cheated on and the fastest way to end it with me would be to cheat. He insisted he was monogomous and did not cheat as he had been cheated on and hurt by it.
GUESS WHAT?? Biggest BS’er in the world – CHEATED on me 6 weeks after my mother died. He’s a liar a cheat a player and a major AC.
They KNOW how to play every card!!
Thank you, Grace. I did say no. I’m just pondering the larger social issue. Why is it no big deal to be mistreated in such a way? I understand it’s nothing new & even said that. But that’s kind of the point I’m pondering. Why is it not offensive-worthy just because it’s common? You’re a Christian so you know that one of tne devil’s “titles” is the deceiver. He’s not going to appear as something abnormal but normal, a “no big deal”.
Oops…still doing this from my phone & published before I was ready. I’m not declaring definitively that I *should* feel traumatized over somebody trying to use me for sex, just wpndering why this isn’t considered abusive treatment & why it’s thought of as “no big deal” just because it’s common, nothing new under the sun.
I must say, that was intense; the original article and all the heart-aching stories and comments all of you great BR ladies posted. The triggers, the reminders of my own shame, pain and hurt.
All I could think of, though, was… Does one mistake/lie/cheat make one a liar/cheat? I can’t say he has this casual relationship with the truth. In fact, he’s one that is straight to the point like very few I’ve seen. But, and as usual, it’s a big BUT here… after the decease of a very close family member of his(after a series of deaths before it too), and the trauma that came with all of them in addition to being cheated on during one of his mourning periods before I had met him, he ran off with an ex.. a crazy twisted ex to top it off. He broke things off with me through a one-line email after I’d supported him through all his s**t. He was of course seeing her before breaking up with me and this was the part that hurt the most. I thought I gave him space to mourn his relative and turns out he was “hanging out” with that lunatic.
He had fought for me before, not that he was a complete jerk all along. We’d been together for more than 2 years on and off (err… long distance). Typically enough, he came back.. He broke up with the crazy ex who went ballistic about it, and I hear that he misses me and still has strong feelings, etc etc. Now, we’re “best friends”… with feelings!!! I find it hard to trust him. It’s like he has 2 sides of his character, and I’m scared the hurtful one would come out again. Other than that, he’s super sweet, caring, empathizing, worries when I’m having a bad day, apologizes when he overreacts, and confesses his weakness (something I’ve never seen a guy do). I’m baffled… at who he is sometimes… at whether it was just one lie or there’s more. I know right now, we’re just friends and supposedly he’s entitled to date and I shouldn’t get offended by it. But, I would hurt if he did. I just can’t go NC because I’m not even sure if he’s an AC or not. I can make a whole list of why he’d be one and another of why he’s so not AC.
Oh, and he did tell me he was asked out by another ex and that he said No. I took that as a sign of honesty. Naive much?!!
NC isn’t a punishment for bad guys, it’s to allow you to get over someone and save you from hurt. You don’t have to decide he’s an assclown. I don’t think it’s normal to spend a lot of time with an ex anyway.
But for the record I think he’s the worst kind of AC, all sweet and empathetic on the surface, but a wolf in sheeps clothing.
yep, what mymble said. these assclowns in sheep’s clothing are the worst because even though we know there’s an assclown underneath all the warm and fuzzy wool, we get fooled by their shallow softness. they are very hard to detach from because they give us just enough to sustain. we see they have a good side to them and we really hope that the bad stuff will go away.
it won’t. they’re the whole package. this AC is no good. there’s only one remedy: NC.
MSA,
you have feelings for him…you can`t just be friends. And it sadly sounds like he has his cake (you waiting for him) and eats it ( he can date other women and you can`t get upset about it). Bereavement doesn`t make you lie. I also think that the info about another ex that he refused to go out with…that`s a bit like an honesty crumb. I think that this situation is full of red flags, sorry.
@Mymble,
True about NC, I’m at a place where I don’t feel strong enough to do that yet though. I’m already having a hard time NOT initiating contact. Gosh, if you’d seen me a year ago. I defended him heart and soul. Also, yes, sometimes he’s too good to be true, which is yet another huge red flag. Urgh, look at me now, I’m contradicting myself :S but that’s how I’ve been for a while, 2 voices fighting night and day inside of me, the old me and the “BR” version of me.
@sushi,
Well, the cake part is all of my own making. He didn’t say he wanted to date. In fact, he made it clear to everyone he’s not ready for a relationship now. He’s having therapy and sorting his issues first. He specifically told that ex who asked him that if he were to date now, it wouldn’t be her. That’s when she asked him about his feelings for me and he told her he still loved me. But, I’m kind of paranoid, I guess. I just don’t know what to believe anymore. Does it sound like I’m being drip fed the truth?
Anyway, thanks to Nat and you ladies, I’m at least now seeing some truths for what they are. I don’t take his sweet talk for granted, rather measure it against his actions. I feel like it’s a probation period, I just hope I’m not setting up my heart for more pain.
I think the best question that you can ask yourself is “How does it feel to be me right now, listening to him talk about dating?”
You already know that answer; you need no contact. This man is just emotional air-bagging you….:(
dancingqueen,
Seems I created some confusion here, I’m sorry. Like I was telling sushi, this is all my own paranoia and fears. He doesn’t want to date anyone right now. I’m the one assuming it’s Ok for him to. Even after he told me he still loves me, but is waiting to finish therapy so that he doesn’t act like before, I blurted out telling him, “But if you meet someone else, I’d appreciate if you’d let me know”. Am I being irrational & having trust issues? I just can’t seem to trust him as I used to anymore.
Well this is my take, keep in mind that I myself recently ended a friendship with an ex who it just got too complicated to be freinds with…and I had never even loved him! So I can’t imagine how much it hurts to have a friendship with an ex who I did love.
I would still go nc. I think that you are secretly hoping that he will finish therapy and you will get back for round 2. You don’t sound like you are moving on emotionally, you sound like someone who is being kept in limbo by someone who wants to drip feed you emotional morphine to dull the pain of yanking off the bandage and both getting on with your lives. I would not trust him; he has little boundaries. It is not appropriate to tell an ex that you still love them. That is just trying to keep that line connected and if he had been the right guy you would not be broken up right now.
I really advise no contact him imho;( ((((hugs))))) I know it is super hard, but it really helps….
Hi again Nancy –
You wrote “it scares me to let go..I fear being alone, which is ironic because I really am alone being with him.”
It sounds to me like what you are with him is miserable! Being alone is NOT the same thing as being miserable.
I’m not saying that once you split up with him you will have instant happiness. But don’t feed yourself the BS that being alone is something to be scared of, or a recipe for misery. It isn’t!
It may take some time to for you to be thoroughly happy, and maybe you have some work to do, but the sooner you go NC the sooner you will get there. As Nat says “Get behind your own decision!”
I’m not on your case, it’s just that I see you have it pretty much all figured out, you have some professional help, and you are so so close to setting yourself free of him and finding some real happiness. I’m wishing you well, whatever your decision, and whatever the timing.
Fran.
Go NC, and definitely do not ext him or respond to him at all. You don’t know the man and don’t owe him a thing. You’ve already said he’s a player. Do you want to be ONE OF his fallback girls? Hope not. Find other stuff to do than think about him. Don’t waste your time. That old running hot and cold game is sooo immature. You’re better than that.
thanks Tinkerbell and you’re right, I am better than that. I have the kind of brain that always wants to figure things out. But I’m not wasting another thought on someone like this clown.
So true! I feel sick. Been involved with a married man for 9 months. For 6 of them i thought something was not right but not 100% sure. Found out what i think was the truth from his wife.
Sick of being fitted in, lied to and my house used by him for sex.
Finished it tonight. Tried before but he just wont take no for an answer keeps ringing non stop. Driving me crazy!
The truth is that: the promises he makes, the lovely things he says to you, the innuendoes of a future with you, his statements of love and missing you so much, is designed to get you into bed and into his control; he won’t leave his wife for you; he is playing with your head for his own gratification with no thought to how it affects you or his wife or anyone else for that matter; it is a risk he’s willing to take for the ego boost, and with the notion that he is smarter than you and the average bear and that he can ‘manage’ you and his wife so that he can have his cake and eat it too. Been there, got the t shirt, and it says: Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me…
Block him, if your phone or company can’t do that, threaten to call the police if he keeps harassing you, we live in an age where that behavior is illegal…
Vicki, my goodness I have been there too. 15 years ago I was involved with a married man and remember all too well how you’re feeling. Block his number, change yours, do what you have to in order to keep NC. Stay strong because you are strong. You said it yourself, you felt something was wrong. Trust your gut feelings…they won’t stear you wrong .
Vicki,
You found out from his wife he was married? Wow!
I would put a block on the phone, if this is not an option, you can change your number or get a restraining order.
Ah HA! I think I figured out my funk. On January 22, 2013 or in a couple of days, it will have been an exact year since I met my Mr Unavailable ex. Naturally, I’m in a funk/regressing/reminiscing/being triggered. I’m grieving the loss. So being holed up in bed with nothing but itunes, BR and facebook, and cookies make sense. I need to nurture me and be nice to me and let me let it out and cry.
Also, for every fucker that’s done me wrong, there have been twice as many opportunities for nurturing and growth.
Thanks to all for the comments. They really, really help. You ladies here on BR are nothing short of amazing.
Jennifer Tiffany,
Cheers! Jan 22nd is my “anniversary” What a coincidence of misfortune! lol. This year it’ll be 12 years, with the last 2 not counted. Can I come curl up with my laptop and cookies too? 😛 Oh wait, No! Go get your hair and nails done, maybe a massage, or just go out enjoy nature. Take care!
Thanks for all of the advice. BR is the reason I was able to stick to NC for 6 months. Having been so good, about no contact I gave in and responded to his phone call. I had a weak moment. You are right in saying that I am being selfish, and made me think about loving my husband. We have been married for 39 years, so yes I love him but am not in love with him. There are children and grandchildren involved. I do have low self-esteem and it stems from my childhood and a tyrant as a father. I’m not blaming my actions on this, and I do need to take responsibility for my actions. Some of you think I owe it to my husband to tell him about the affair, and others of you do not. I don’t want to hurt him and yes, I wasn’t thinking about loving him during the affair. I just am so confused and ill with myself. Many years ago my husband would go to pornographic websites on the computer after I had gone to bed. We went to couples therapy after that, but really I’ve never forgiven him for that. I also suspected that he was being overly flirtatious with someone from work. I’m still trying to get even with him and believe you me, I’ve more than gotten even with him although I don’t plan on telling him. Where do I go from here?
Ella Rae, you sound like you are in pretty deep. You say: “We have been married for 39 years, so yes I love him but am not in love with him.” The exMM, who has been married for 30-something years said the exact same words to me. What does that mean?
I am sorry for your situation. I don’t think this is about getting even. The only words of guidance I would offer is to NC the affair and totally focus on you and your marriage. I’d also seek counseling ASAP. I’m a former OW who stuck by the exMM as an option as he flitted to and fro until it became unbearable and just about tanked me until I discovered BR.
Are you in your marriage or not?
This is a particularly heavy post as others have pointed out. Lying and cheating is always heavy stuff.
Ella Rae
If you put the whole thing behind, no need to tell your husband.
Have you thought of your lover’s wife, by the way? Like, putting yourself in her shoes for a moment. I’d strongly recommend this.
I think “I love him, but I´m not in love with him” means that the feelings you have for your husband are the same feelings you have for a dear friend, for a brother. The thrill is gone…
But please Ella Rae, don´t rely on this MM, don´t get lost in a dreamworld. Work on your issues!
After 39 years, can´t you talk openly with your husband? Not about the affair, but about your feelings. The things that made you unhappy, the things you want to change? They were there before. They made it possible to let an other man into your heart.
Ella Rae
I haven´t been in a marriage for 39 years but the “I love him but am not in love with him” sounds about right. Isn´t that what a LT marriage feels like? How could two people remain “in” love with each other for decades? Really, does anyone have the energy for that?
Having been in a shorter (10 years) marriage myself, I recognise your reactions. I caught my ex husband cheating on me once or twice and calling some porn phone some other time. It wasn´t really important and he was sorry about it. But somehow, it was like an emotional breakup for me. Though we tried to work things out and had a better sexlife afterwards, I felt like I was owed. It was unfair that he got to cheat on me while I had to be monogamous. So as soon as I had the chance, I cheated on him. Which was ultimately damaging to me because the other guy was involved with someone else.
It did make me feel alive. My marriage seemed so unsatisfying, like we were living parallel lives. I didn´t really care if my husband felt attracted to someone else, but with this guy it was different. I felt an intense emotional connection with him – though it wasn´t a positive connection. Anyway, some months later, when I was stressed out from this dalliance, I ended it and decided never to tell my husband about it. Life was pleasant for a while. Untill he told me out of the blue that he was leaving me. Turned out he had been involved with someone else all that time.
It was a shock for me because I never intended to end our marriage, I just wanted to feel wanted again. But now that time has passed, I can see that our relationship ended a long time before. Not when I cheated on him, not when he did, but years before that.
Anyway, that´s just my experience. Some couples survive infidelities and stay seemingly happy together. It wouldn´t work for me, but that´s just me. Each case is different, perhaps if you take your time you´ll discover that you want to stay with your husband and put the affair behind you.
As for your husband, I would not tell him about it. I agree that you should take this to your grave if you care about him and if you are going to take responsibility for the affair (end it and work on your marriage). And if you decide to end your marriage, there is no need to hurt him with details.
I´m sorry if all this sounds blunt and sceptical, others may have a rosier outlook on marriage.
This post is so on point. Almost four years ago, my ‘relationship’ ended. It started when is was in my early teens, with a married man who was also my teacher. I am now in my mid thirties. When his wife became aware of his infidelity she filed for divorce. She never found out the entire details of who he had been with, never found out it was me. To make a long story short, with the onset of the divorce, it felt like he kicked me under the bus. He decided to move on with someone else. My heart still hurts. I have thought of so many ways to exact revenge. He still teaches and although I can’t charge him with statutory rape( statute of limitations long expired), I have thought of calling the school where he works and speaking with his principal. I feel used. I loved him.He was the first and the only man I’ve been with sexually. I feel like he got off scotch free with no repercussions and I HATE it! I was so naive! Today, though I am stronger and wiser. I’ve been NC with him for about four years. My heart still hurts but it’s healing. If we would have gotten together after his divorce, it likely would not have worked anyway. He is a cheater, lier, and a manipulator. He never deserved me and my love.
Avalanche,
cheater, liar, manipulator.. and pedophile.
your whole experience of relationships and of sexual expression has been skewed by this predator. the love you felt for him was skewed by a grotesque power inequality and by his making you party to adult betrayals and consequences you should have never have been dragged into.
This kind of fetish on his part is hard to cure, especially as he’s been very successful with it. Chances are he will try again with another pubescent girl.
I think it would be a good deed to talk with the principal, but I’d advocate: a) have a friend or other witness there, and ask that there be more than one person representing the school. this should be a formal situation, just the facts, and not a therapy-esque or drama-laden story from you that he hears privately and can sweep under the carpet. b) therapy for you, asap. Your only experience of “love” was in fact being abused by a sick pedophile. Even if it “lasted” ten years, its foundation was poisonous to you.
I’d check the statute more carefully – in some jurisdictions, the limitation period for statutory rape never expires. In addition, there are probably laws that deal with sexual relationships between people in positions of authority (i.e teachers) and students. Get some free legal advice on this point before deciding you have no avenue for recourse.
Thanks. I will check.
Thanks.
Avalanche,
You are right: he NEVER deserved you or your love. You were a child. He is a predator. I am so sorry you went through this. He had no business messing with a child. NONE OF THIS IS YOUR FAULT.
These situations are just bone crushing to the survivor. But you are here and incredibly strong, which is shown in the last line of your post: “He never deserved me and my love.”
You will get through this. You are stronger than you know.
I was molested as a toddler by my aunt’s husband. I just can’t fathom how a human being can do that to a child.
There is life after abuse. I am so sorry you are hurting. Feel your pain, feel your anger. Let it out. Cry. Love yourself. I can assure you WHAT YOU DO DESERVE IS NOTHING SHORT OF LOVE. What this man dished out was abuse.
I know it’s SO difficult, but you can move on. I promise. YOU ARE A VALUABLE HUMAN BEING WHO DESERVES SO MUCH MORE. I am just so sorry you went through this. My heart bleeds for you.
Avalanche, I’m sorry for what you experienced as a young teen. And I’m really sorry it was with your teacher (I hope it wasn’t my father). You were betrayed at a tender age. I hope you don’t spend any energy on exacting revenge. Stay NC, keep healing, and move on. My thoughts are with you. My father, a very respected teacher, did this to his young teen students. Hugs…Runner.
Avalanche,
I am so so sorry for your pain. That is an awful story.
I am a teacher and there are definitely laws about teachers engaging in relationships with their students, even if they are of age. It is just creepy. Even at the college level imo.
Did you keep any proof like texts, messages etc? This will make it easier. You want to also protect his next victims.
Obviously statistically the teachers who get involved with students is low, at least in comparison to the same kids chance of being involved with other adults around them.I personally have not met any teachers in my school that give me that vibe… That said, when I was about 13 a neighbor of mine, who was a principal at a different school, asked me to clean his house for money and, while I was washing the dishes and looking out the window, came up behind me and cupped my breasts and pressed himself against me. It was super disgusting. He was probably in his mid-50’s. I actually ( being so used to being abused so sad) just pretended it it was not happening, slid out of his grasp then and there and went outside to talk to his wife about the garden ( she was gardening right there, how sick) like nothing happened. I think I did not even get paid for the work that I had already done. I just slid out with this total blank look on my face; so sad.
I never told anyone because he was a neighbor and I figured no one would believe me but I have thought many a time about his students before and after me. Surely he pulled that stuff with a student.
Please seek getting this into the light, for your own healing and to prevent new girls from being abused. Hugs….
Thanks for your insight. I have basically kept every written correspondence he has given me. It isn’t much but includes 2 letters he sent to me when I was in college back in ’95 and ’96. About 2 years after I became involved with him, he took a leave of absence just two weeks before the end of the school year. One day during this period of his absence, I happened to be in the principal’s office waiting to talk to my counselor and he walked in. He told me he was going to be calling my parents to see if they would be character witnesses for an upcoming hearing. He never told me what the hearing was concerning. When he called my house, I heard my mother talking to him but she wasn’t aware I was privy to the conversation. My parents never told me that they had gone to his hearing. I guess they figured it wasn’t my business. I always wondered what that hearing was about. I was 16 when the hearing occurred. I finally found out what it was about when I was 31. I submitted an open records request to the school system and got the records. The hearing before the licensing board involved allegations that he had sexual contact with a student. I can’t explain how hurt I was, how angry I was. He asked my parents to vow for him in case that alleged the very thing that he was doing with me! He was cleared of the charges and continues to teach today at a school most teachers would die to teach at, a highly prestigious school. I copied every page of the report and mailed it to him along with a scathing letter about how hurt I was. This revelation happened after he quit me but I wanted him to know that I knew. I wanted him to know that I finally saw him for who he is…a pedophile. While this reality existed, he still loved him and didn’t want to see him in trouble. I decided I would just grieve and move on and hoped that one day my heart would catch up with my head. Through Facebook, I have come to learn that rumors were circling at my highschool during my tenure
there that he was sleeping with other students. I was stupid to think that I was the only one, that he really cared about me.
Thank you runnergirl. If you don’t mind me asking, what became of your father? In what state did he teach?
I have read each and everyone’s comments. And I am struck by some common themes. How do we start to date again? How do we learn to trust? How do we not lump all men in the same class and want to stay away from them all? Which to me reminds me of some words…. nature abhors a vacuum. So if I don’t do something different I will make the same mistake again, and to be honest, i’d rather stay away from men then to be put through the humiliation and hurt that this last AC put me through. ( And by the way another letter, was on my windshield this morning. I didn’t open it, nor have I broken NC)
So Natalie’s post is really spot on for me.
I will not go back on line to find a man. Ego boost for me, but boy oh boy, that’s how I met the last one. He was 50-75 lbs fatter than he picture, and it was all lies.
I will get more active, meet ups here in the area. to socialize with like minded people.
I will work to become a person I would want to meet.
I will come back to this site and post what’s going on and look for feedback to keep me honest with myself because you ladies tell it like it is.
I will not shelf my values, my interests, or my feelings, to please someone else. THAT is probably the number one thing. To thine one self be true. And if he goes away, whoever the next he is, so be it.
NO BS to myself!!
Good luck with dating Emerldeyez and keep us posted:) Thanks to Natalie, we can see “rights from wrongs”, so it will be easy to spot an AC! Looking forward to your stories, have fun!
Ms. D
You made my day! Sittin here after about 6 straight hours of chores, nursing a very sore back. Yep, I am super fortunate in many ways. Right now I am watching the setting sun hit the mountains. Mountain towns are weird; there is zero zoning (cannot interfere with property “rights “) so you get cool places like mine next to neighbors that decide to have junkyards. Three of my nearest neighbors now have junk/trash in their yards. The older men are very “old guard” libertarians who don’t take care of themselves and are very anti education. Then there are the thirtysomethings who are the progressive folk who are currently cranking out kids right and left. They are the ones, other than my aged self traipsing off to the backcountry. Then there is the Latino community which is 60% of the town. They keep very much to themselves and work the awful service jobs at the ski resorts down the hill. Age wise, I am in the same group as the “old guard”. Most mountain towns in this state are like this; a weird mixture of rednecks, a few very fortunate, and a large group that works elsewhere. A juxtaposition of great beauty and squalor, of priveledge and desperate poverty. PhD’s, mentally ill, undocumented folk side by side. All the single women in our college system face the same issue; no one there for us for many miles. This is why AC has gotten away with his actions for so long. A gorgeous guy in a sea of kicka$$ chicks that are sick and tired of near complete aloneness. We have to drive a minimum of 75-100 miles one way on a very dangerous interstate to meet someone even remotely compatible, hence the reliance on on line dating. I hate driving, hate the planetary impact of driving so much, hate driving on icy roads with maniacs in a hurry to ski but it’s that or stay completely alone. I am pursuing the sabbatical but it’s gonna be over a year before it takes effect and will only be for a semester. Just thought of it last week, don’t even have a project yet: I just know it’s gonna not be in my current field which I am very burned out in, I will hafta put in a pellet stove (another solo serious heavy lifting project) so whomever I get to tend the farm, keep plants/animals alive, won’t hafta worry about keeping the woodstove going. Yep, a mixture of the very exotic and the very weird.
Miskwa,
I hope you are somehow active in your community around those children. Imagine how much better things could be if the next generation grew up thinking Miskwa thoughts about the world. You can come and talk to my little boy any time (but he’s obsessed with cars so I can’t promise it’ll work out).
And yaaaaaay for the sabbatical! Now THERE is something you can put your superior mind to good use on. There are plans to be made! Visions to be had! Thoughts of AC unpleasantness to be squeezed out of the way!
Miskwa’s going on an adventure.
Two months after I married my now ex husband, I found out that he had made advances at his ex-girlfriend to have “one last time” sex. She is the mother of his youngest child and he was picking the child up that morning before our wedding. I might have never known if the mother hadn’t decided she wanted to blackmail him into taking on more responsibility for the child then we were equipped for at the moment. I went into a deep depression for a few months. Through therapy, journaling, prayer, inspiring sermons, and much support from family and friends I was able to pull through that hell. When I came to my senses and started to love myself (I stopped believing I wasn’t good enough), he became more angry and aggressive then ever. We separated in April. I made one “Suck it and See” attempt at the end of July (before I even knew what that meant) and caught on to all the bullshit. (You guys wouldn’t believe the crocodile tears he had for me “hurting him” for going No Contact on his ass for 3 1/2 months). I found Baggage Reclaim, got a divorce in September, and I am happier now then ever. I only wish I could let the new woman know what she has gotten herself into, but I will not do that. Thank you Natalie and everyone else on here for all the wise words! I have much more to say when it applies. There was not empathy, there was no remorse. These AC are not like us and I have finally given up trying to understand why they do what they do. It’s time to focus on ME!
Avalanche,
You are so right. He doesn’t deserve you or your love. These posts are so great because they allow you to see that others are going through the same feelings and emotions as you. It is easier to get through this with others cheering you on.
@Ella Rae,
In my opinion, after your husband’s suspected infidelity and you not doing anything about it, you needed validation. You felt rejected and might have even felt unwanted or unattractive. The other MM gave you that, he quenched your thirst and your slurped it without thinking. After you got what you sought, you look around to find a mess. It’s not about “getting back”, it’s about getting back what you lost when the husband flirted or watched porn. Now, you miss that poison, it tasted sweet, but at the end.. It’s still poison. Like everyone else said, NC with the MM is a first step, then therapy and choosing what you want to do about your marriage and husband. I know words might be easy and it could be hard to maintain NC. But, you’re standing on a cliff now. I feel for you and I understand how difficult this is. You can do it!!
@ Ella. Ok, so you are nursing old grudges concerning a few things you r husband did in the past. Two wrongs don’t make a right. This time YOU are wrong for messing with a MM when you are married, yourself. You have not stated that he actually physically cheated, although some people would entertain the idea that looking at porn is mentally cheating and just as bad. I disagree on that point. If you suspected that he was cheating then you should have made it your business to find out then and you would have known what to do and perhaps not be where you are now. The question is, is he cheating now. BUT, even before that YOU need to clean up YOUR act and go strict NC on the MM. No explanations to him either, because that will be interpreted by him that you can be talked out of your decision. Just drop his. He is “dead to you” from now on. Then, either work on your marriage if you still want it, or work to cut that loose also. Be honest with yourself. Remember, in this entire situation it’s not just YOU involved. Do what is right and what you can be satisfied with, because your days of wine and roses and living on cloud 9 are over. You have to be fair and practical and that may mean you give up SOMETHING. Decide what that “something” is going to be.
What I said may sound cold. But, we pay a price when we do wrong in one way or another. That’s just life. When we’re no longer teenaged dreamers older and supposed to be stable, life in not all peaches and cream. You have to swallow ( deal with) things that are very bitter, also.
amen Tink, amen.:)
Please help, ladies. I’ve been dating my landlord for 2.5 years. He lied and said he’d been separated for years but had never divorced for various reasons (they’ve been married nearly 30 years). Shortly after we hooked up, he started leaving town 3 weeks per month to visit another state where he was building a home. It turns out his wife was there most of the time (they own several homes), although he told me she was living here, near me. He strung me along for over a year using incredibly romantic texts/emails, future faked, but only saw me a couple of days a month. I wondered the whole time how he could be ok with being apart so often, thinking maybe he had another girlfriend, but never suspected it was his WIFE I needed to worry about! A year ago, she found our emails and contacted me. She knew he’d been lying to me about them not being together, so she was not angry with me. He chose her and tried to make it work briefly, probably for financial reasons according to her, as they are very wealthy and he had a lot to lose. Then he had a stroke and came back to me, saying life was too short not to be with me and that he was going to ask for a divorce (he didn’t). We got back together and his wife served him with divorce papers when she learned we were together again. That was 7 months ago, yet there’s still no agreement, I have only met a couple of his friends, we spend holidays apart, etc. Since then, I’ve been living with him, but he will not allow me to officially move in, so I still pay them rent on the apartment I don’t use. I realize our relationship is going nowhere. He’s probably still lying to me, goes away without me a lot, and I am in constant emotional pain and feel so insecure. He’s been away on a 2-week trip, and we got in a fight over the phone because he was supposed to come back today but said he was too sick to drive. I told him I feel like we’re going nowhere and still don’t trust him after the massive lies he told, but he just gaslights me and says he’s not cheating/lying and I’m too suspicious. We’re supposed to have “A Talk” about the relationship tomorrow night. I know I need to break it off, but I am so scared and still want everything he future faked to come true. Advice/encouragement, please?
Vix,
ask yourself if you will ever be able to trust him? He is a liar and a cheat.You know that already, and that`s the only real thing you have to go on. Do you want to risk your future on that? They don`t change.
Vix, nothing you’ve written will shock or surprise anyone here because we’ve all been with a version of your guy in one way or another. Of course I mean that figuratively, but really, it’s entirely possible that some of us may have been with your actual guy in one way or another. Which means you’ll get the same advice. Steel yourself, lady.
But first, I’ve just gotta say whoa. WHOA. I love the fact that when most of these assholes would pay to put up a mistress in a swanky condo to facilitate easy access/keep the OW happy and quiet or something THIS GUY HAS YOU PAYING HIM MONEY TO FACILITATE YOU SLEEPING WITH HIM IN HIS OWN ‘CONDO’. And did this guy welcome you with open arms and insist on renting your old place out to someone else now that you’re “officially together”? Nope! YOU ARE STILL PAYING HIM MONEY TO FACILITATE YOU SLEEPING WITH HIM. Uh-huh. Are you sure he doesn’t have some sick ‘thing’ going on where he gets off on women paying him for sex? I hope this gives you the fire in your belly you need to NC this loser’s stupid, greedy, weirdo ass all the way to Pluto. But then! My absolute favourite part of the story was when that ridiculous asshole said he thinks you’re “too suspicious”. I myself have a Ph.D in Suspicious and I can quite confidently say, you show a LOT of promise in this area. I am hoping you showed him what a Masters in Bitchface looks like when you told him to SHUT THE FUCK UP. Too suspicious my cranky ass.
Sigh. No, your faked futures aren’t going to come true. No, this guy is no different to any garden variety assclown who infests this planet and no, you will not be the next Mrs Assclown when the divorce comes through and own half a string of investment properties. Actually, if this all goes down right, I would get ready to start falling in love with the word NO.
NO self delusions, NO settling for feeling less than, NO wondering, NO second guessing, NO wearing your teeth down to stumps with rage and indignation, NO more sick feeling in the pit of your stomach 24/7, NO feeling used, NO confusion, NO emptiness, NO being made to feel needy, NO pain, NO lies, NO cheating, NO wasting your precious time and NO and I mean ABSOLUTELY NO ASSCLOWNS. Ever. Again.
I’d love to be ‘a fly on the wall’ for your talk. I have a ‘suspicion’ it’s going to go in your favour. If you dump his pathetic ass. 🙂
Ms. Determined,
I’m still smiling as I write this. I could’t have said this any better myself.I am currently on a six month hiatus from relationships. And I haven’t felt this kind of peace and self-esteem in months!
I finally realize that I do have control over my own happiness and now know that I must take responsibility for allowing myself to be delusional due to my own lack of self-esteem. I caused my own unhappiness by allowing myself to be treated so poorly by assclown men. When I say this, I do not mean to absolve the behavior of men and women who behave this way. Sometimes,we just end up being blind-sided by a liar. The key is knowing when to bail yourself out of a situation that is not favorable to you and your values.
Learning to say the word “NO” has liberated me from my own self-imposed prison.Trusting our innate instincts to flee instead of rationalizing and ignoring those signals, allows us to not become “prey” and helps us to survive and thrive.
Anyway, thanks again for those words of encouragement and also to this site which has been IMMENSELY helpful and inspirational 🙂
Thank you, Ms. Determined. I have never been very good at creating boundaries or saying, “No.” I’m a people-pleaser who doesn’t like to create conflict. But I think it has caused me to accept a lot of behavior most people would not. I have worked with a therapist on that, but quit going to her because I didn’t seem to be making progress. I think I need to get back into reading my “Boundaries” books and more of BR and start putting the skills there into practice. I appreciate the time you spent on your response to me, and know that you offer honest and good advice. I haven’t had to put up with behavior like this from a man since I was a teenager, and I think the only reason I have is because my MM knows exactly which carrots to dangle in front of me, and how to play on my most basic need for affection. When we spoke on the phone last night and I told him I was trying to decide if I should move my stuff out, back to my apartment, he calmly suggested that we wait to discuss this in person, so he cold hold me in his arms and we could “figure out what we can do to make [me] feel better.” I know that because I want so badly for everything to be ok, there’s a good chance I will let him talk me out of leaving, only to have the same thing come up in 2 more months when his divorce is still pending, etc. I am spending today really trying to think this through so I don’t succumb to immediate gratification. I’ve been reading a lot of Nat’s posts and reader’s responses, which helps a lot. You gals are great. Thank you.
Ms. Determined. HA,HA…I always enjoy your post so much :
“I myself have a Ph.D in Suspicious and I can quite confidently say, you show a LOT of promise in this area.”
LOVE IT !! and to add ,I am sad to say I am educating my daughter who is in her 20’s some of my resources in this area. I only wish I had someone who could have shown me when I was that age. Could have saved me alot of heartache & pain. And all the “No’s” you posted were music to my ears. I am cut,copy & pasting them for future use. Hell, theie good enough to be on a laminated card for my wallet :)..
Vix
I remember a story very, very similar to this in the BR archives, under a different name, over a year ago. If that was you, you were given great advice including first and foremost to find somewhere else to live. The poster then was full of excuses why she “couldn’t”. What are your reasons for not moving? Even in a healthy normal relationship it is a bad idea to have a boyfriend who is a landlord, and your “relationship” is, well, you know what it is.
Vix: I’m about to be very Betty Blunt about this: this guy is one of the clearest examples of an assclown I have ever heard of. As Ms. Determined pointed out earlier–he is literally getting you to sleep with him and ALSO pay him. I don’t even have words to express what a terrible person he appears to be. My only question for you is (and don’t think I don’t empathize with the pain you must be experiencing): why do you care about his promises/lies? He is a horrible human being and to say you deserve better is a massive understatement. The world deserves better than having to put up with having him in it! Your story flat out shocked me, and saddened me as well. I feel for you; but please get as far away from him as you can as soon as you can. Never mind what he promised you–the only future you would have with a person like this is a future of misery. I imagine you are a wonderful person, don’t you want a wonderful person by your side and not a cheating, lying, opportunistic person like him?
Thank you, Ladies. I do want an honest and loving man beside me, and the realistic part of me knows that he’s not it. He has made it clear he never wants to marry again. I want to be remarried. I’m a primary school teacher and have a lot of affection and love to give. I think I’m still dealing with guilt over the fact that I was unfaithful in my own marriage years ago, so I have been trying to lavish as much affection, patience, and love on this guy because I imagined myself a changed person, who could be faithful and devoted despite troubled times. And when he had his stroke (he’s 51; I’m 38), he went through therapy and swore to me that he had “seen the light” and that all he wanted was to make our life happy, that he’d never cheated before and never wanted to be “That Guy” again. When he’s here, things are good. We spend nearly every night together, we laugh, have great sex, etc. It’s when he leaves that I get introspective and wonder where my life is going, why he can’t commit, if he’s cheating again. Not least of our problems is that he is not a very affectionate man, so he doesn’t appreciate nor understand my need to give and receive lots of affection, anyway. He says he shows love through sex. I thought I was ok with that, but now it sounds like Unavailable horsesh*t. I realize he has no motivation for changing anything. I mean, I take care of his home (I’m ashamed to admit I’ve paid a lot of my own money to decorate the place he and I “live” in now, which he moved into when he left his wife), cook lavish meals, care for his dog when he takes off for weeks, write him daily love notes, don’t give him much grief over the fact that he will not come out with his family about seeing me now (even though they all know he was having an affair with me); why WOULD he change? I sound like a doormat when I reread that. And yes, it really bothers me that I am still paying him that rent. The man is a multimillionaire and I make a teacher’s salary. He says it has to be that way because he and his wife still own the building together. We have literally not been in my apartment together since I started living with him in June. I know he makes me keep it because he doesn’t want to be stuck with me if he decides to move on, and he always has one foot out the door. Mymble, it was me under a different name when I came here for help last year when his wife and I found out what he was up to. And you guys did tell me to move out. I did not, partly because he initiated no contact with me when he went back with her, and also because the weak part of me hoped he’d come back to me if it did not work with her. I guess I got my wish. But now I see that even though he’s with me, I still have no security in the relationship. I know I am being self-absorbed here, but writing all this out is helping me face thoughts and feelings I try to bottle up, and it’s cathartic. Thank you for listening, and for the advice.
I was on a bs diet of self delusion Because my ex from a long marriage was not “overtly evil and malicious” (I think Pandora also said this), I kept making excuses for him. I prided myself on my fair-mindedness and my sense of justice. I thought I was doing the “right thing” and I tried really hard to ignore my own voice. My real voice WAS there and it was always popping out (in anger, tears, frustration, and later great sadness in me), I tried to self-justify, saying he was trying, he was decent, what was wrong with me, blah blah blah. What was I doing? What kind of huge social worker project was I engaged in when it was so self destructive??? I exhausted myself. It has been a long struggle to just “settle” with the fact that he is not “bad” and I am not “bad” but that I need, want and deserve is something far more nourishing, a man that has real emotions and can express them, can engage adult to adult with me on an emotional level and who doesn’t exhaust me because I had to fill in most of the blanks myself. It is very empowering but also scary to realize that as adults we can make choices about our relationships. This is my choice and it has taken me quite a while to really understand the profound nature of saying. “This is making me miserable and it just doesn’t work for me – and I deserve more.” Enough said.
Hi Expresso.
Well put.
Espresso. Apologies for the wrong spelling of your name in my earlier response.
Espresso,
Been there, done that… You feel obliged to save the marriage, especially when no visible malice or evil is there. It’s mostly narcissism and emotional abuse and we neither see nor deserve this. As adult, caring women (or men) with giving natures, we need and deserve a give/take mutual relationships rather than someone draining us of all our love and potential. My ex husband told me lately he didn’t recognize me, “Where’s the loving, caring and nurturing you?” (although he always accused me of quite the opposite), I said, “That other me… You drained her. Her love supply ran out on you”
I still have my supply, just not for him. He didn’t appreciate it and doesn’t deserve it. Thank you espresso for reminding me of how I feel about him. It’s painful, yet awakening and sometimes needed when they play nice again trying to win you back, which he’s been doing lately. Enough IS enough. What a relief! Never expected I’d say this, but.. I can’t wait for the divorce from such a vacuum of a relationship.
Wow Natalie, this one just brought out so much grief from so many different angles. I thank you for your amazing ability. I mostly haven’t stopped crying since I read it the first time and the second, and the third time. And then the heart wrenching comments from everybody on every side of the lying and cheating. Lying and cheating really doesn’t work well no matter what. This brought up a ton of stuff…thank you.
Thanks MSA, Tinkerbell, Teddie, and runnergirl and anyone else who responded to Ella Rae. You are so right and hearing all of this straight talk from you helps me more than you know. This behavior is not me. I feel like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. When my mom and dad died with auto-immune diseases, I think I was mad at God and did this terrible thing along with wanting to get back at my husband. I am not making excuses for myself but just trying to understand why I did what I did. I’m not sex starved or anything like that. I met this man on a church mission trip of all places. I thought he was a good man if he did mission work. I think mm nursed my hurt wounds (I thought at the time) but in the long run, added to these wounds by leaving more. He is the epitomy of an AC. How could I be so needy as to fall for him??
Wish you could’ve taken his/your (?) ‘clean uggs’, rubbed em in doggy doo doo & left em under his bed Selkie!!
good work fx! I like yr style & agree. we only have trust issues with ppl who give us good cause to have them! so happy for you finding what sounds like a decent bf! good for you! 🙂
Something I am learning, and I expect will continue to learn, is how to be present in reality. When we run up and down blind alleys and fantasy, trying to figure out the impossible, it does hurt like hell but there is a level at which it works for us. It’s a distraction from our own lives.
I don’t have to do anything about a crap job, or housing situation, or boredom, or no close friends if I can instead focus my energies and attention on how someone else is behaving and what they are doing to me. I can tell myself if the man steps up, everything will be fine so I just have to keep focus on him.
When I first started seeing the boyfriend the lack of drama and predictability had me wondering, “is this it?” , “can this be real?”. It was missing the “buttons” that would turn me on the past: mystery, drama, fantasy, future faking, high romance, validation, even sexual chemistry (though the attraction is definitely there, it is not a compulsion like before). It’s actually a lovely feeling not to be swept away by passion but to have both feet on the ground.
Even if we did work out exactly what was lies /the truth we would still be left with our own stuff. You don’t get any credit for figuring them out and I find that being able to understand assclowns is not a transferable skill unless you’re a hostage negotiator or something.
I’ve applied it to my work life too. I no longer get involved in the drama-mongering. It’s nothing to do with my job, it’s just a distraction. I feel happier with my job now I concentrate on it instead of having half my energies diverted by drama.
I led a study at church the other day. I was nervous about it but as I started I felt waves of goodwill coming at me from everyone there. These are my people, who share my values. I couldn’t get interested again in liars and cheats. It doesn’t speak to me anymore and I would find it a total turnoff. Even if I knew them for a while and they suddenly turned on me, I hope I wouldn’t feel the need to stick around.
I don’t think we need to worry so much that assclowns are on every corner waiting to pounce on us. In most cases there was/is a dynamic that we play into. I saw that with the playa, there were lots of women fawning over him. But others who were completely immune. He just passed them over, there were so many other women who were up for it, even if they did put up some token resistance (like I did).
If we don’t play into it, they will just move onto someone else (unfortunately for the someone else). We won’t play into it when we have the self-belief to live our values authentically in practice. It’s not that we are depriving ourselves of their charms, we just won’t want it anymore.
this was really helpful to read, grace. think once humans figure out what to do with our boredom and/or anxiety all addictions and bad life decisions will more than halve. guess we evolved to be out hunting all day never had time to get bored, lol.
First of all, Espresso: thank you for the citation! It is obvious to me that all of you ladies here are striving to live honestly and true to your core values. I can hear the pain in your words ( collective your); I can empathize with your horrific situations. Grace, your words ring very true. How I laughed at the comment ” You don’t get any credit for figuring them out and I find that being able to understand assclowns is not a transferable skill unless you’re a hostage negotiator or something”- hilarious, but sad! I’ve wasted SO.MUCH.TIME. figuring out my Mr. UA/ AC/ borderline NARC or whatever the hell he is, I’ve forgotten who I am in the process. Yes, it is a distraction from examining the issues in my life that need to change. Grace, you seem to strive to live in an authentic Christian manner. So much of what you’ve written in your post completely resonates with me. I’ve postponed ( actually, non-committed) to any church, any church involvement, or anything that is actually a focus on me or on helping anyone else but the AC. He has become my primary focus. Despite his avowed faith (in God, that is), he does not have a clue how to reciprocate with giving- or if he does, he simply chooses not to. There’s no need, when I’m there fulfilling everything for him, with no strings attached. I love what you said at the end about “It’s not that we are depriving ourselves of their charms, we just won’t want it anymore.” I am closer, closer to that place. I so want to be there. Pray for me, Grace. I am praying for you and for all these lovely, funny, smart, insightful, amazing, witty BR readers. We all need to realize our worth and not tolerate this “SHITE” any longer. And, Ms. Determined, here’s to NO! That was absolutely brilliant!!!
Yes, Natalie, I ditto what Runner has said. You really hit the ball out of the park with this particular post. The responses and been HEAVY emotionally, and we’ve revealed a variety of problems, suffering, injustices, indignation, and humiliation surrounding LIEING AND CHEATING. What amazes me is how you continue to come out with these posts. Even when one may have nuances of another, it is still completely different. You don’t repeat the same topic and yet the unique language and abbreviations you’ve introduced has been adopted by us all, we truly relate and use them all the time responding to each other. It’s like an international secret society to better women’s lives as they engage with men, but, OFF-LOADING. THE. BS. FIRST. Kudos to Natalie Lue.
Tink. I feel exactly like you do. Each post is unique yet I find myself in them all. Some more than others and well this one I saw myself over & over. I am so thankful I found this site. Without it, I think I would still be stuck in quicksand trying to dig myself out. Thanks to everyone & especially Nat…
This article is so poignant in regards to my recent situation.
I was drip fed little “unthruths” that simply didn’t add up for me and left me feeling unsure, niggled and therefore stressed.
Having given the benefit of the doubt several times, eventually the little “fibs” (as they were described) revealed the actual lies that were rife throughout the relationship I had with this girl.
As said in the article, it was a typical case of a distorted reality in the bubble that she lived in – she could make the ethics and rules of how the relationship was governed, only letting me know certain details which limited the info I could glean.
Awful. Even though I hurt very much still inside for allowing myself to trust despite gut instinct telling me otherwise, I know I’m better off without this person in my life.
Natalie, this is hands down the best post I have read. As a former “other woman” who hung on waiting for my ass clown to leave his wife because he kept saying he would, I could see my former self throughout this post. 2 years on and in a real relationship, I could laugh at portions of it and reflect on how easily I was duped and how I added my own BS to his BS. Thanks for this!
I am so grateful for Natalie, BR and all of the commenters here. I have been struggling recently with what happened between me and the last AC. I had made such great progress, I thought, after 5 months of NC, which followed contact on my part via email after a previous 3 months of NC. The email was me being a detective…I had all of the evidence, I just wanted a confession. Call me crazy, but I just wanted him to admit that he had lied to me the whole time that he HAD toyed with my emotions, that he was not the “good guy” he was pretending to be. I guess, I was still hoping that I wasn’t totally wrong about him and that I could somehow find him redeeming in his honesty albeit too little too late. When he continued to lie and make excuses, it only further infuriated me and also made me feel like an idiot for trying to get water from a rock.
when a person is running rings around you by blowing hot and cold, contradicting their actions and words, chasing you down when you call a spade a spade, and making out like you have them pegged wrong when you don’t, you start to get confused about what’s ‘up’ and ‘down’.
This resonates so much with me. I couldn’t decide whether I was projecting insecurities from my previous failed relationship on to him or if he really just wasn’t who he said he was. I feel like such a failure still being in this space 5 months later and in a new year no less. Up until 2 weeks prior to his engagement to his “ex” who he swore he was not with, he was telling me I was being suspicious for no reason, he was falling in love with me and was looking forward to spending time with me.
I float between being angry with myself for being so stupid and putting the onus back on him for being duplicitous. I still wonder was I just a pit-stop on his road to marriage? Was I so horrible that I suddenly made him realize he wanted to marry a woman he had cheated on relentlessly for over a decade? It really hurts that I trusted someone so untrustworthy who posed as a friend to gain insight to my vulnerabilities and then used them against me.
I don’t know how to get closure from this caustic although brief encounter with this man. I am absolutely terrified of dating for fear that I will surely end up on an episode of “Snapped” if one more man lies to my face. I can’t take it.
Sleeping Beauty, I can so relate to the back and forth feelings you have of anger at him and yourself. It’s perfectly normal to feel that way. But you are NOT STUPID. You are vulnerable, caring, and you want to believe better of people than perhaps they always deserve. That’s not stupidity, that’s compassion, kindness, the urge for unity and harmony that all decent souls have. Your confrontation with your ex was a last-ditch attempt, as you describe, to give him a chance to step up and be a man. He failed, completely – and now you know, without an iota of doubt, that he is NOT WORTH ANOTHER MOMENT OF YOUR TIME, LOVE AND ENERGY.
I personally feel sorry for the girl he’s engaged to. Liars never stop their game, and I fear she’s in for a lifetime of pain if they do marry.
You are not in the same place you were before. You have moved forward, although painfully, to a place where you must close that door forever, finally. You will not break NC again with this guy, I am certain.
Forget other men for a while. You need some serious healing time.
This man sounds like a mentally unstable person with a personality disorder. With such a person their cheating and lying is not about you and/or whether you are deficent, but is a manifestation of their pathology. I recently experienced a similar situation, where my so-called bf would periodically announce that he was still “in love” with his ex (this is after 3 years of our being together). And yes he habitually cheated on his ex. This guy liked high drama, had one to two women on the go at all times (at least). I took me a long time to accept that: a)I am better off without him. b) He has a serious problem i.e borderline personality disorder or something. c) He will continue to make a mess of his life no matter what women he is with. I say all this in the hope that you can see/realize that it is not about you and encourage you to look to the future and leave behind the horrendous anxiety that this relationship has probably caused you. Good luck!
Sleeping Beauty, My ex AC decided without any discussion with me, that he wanted to get married, and that it should be within a couple of weeks. I was floored! And knew something was really wrong. I wanted to plan, I had an apt. that I had to break a lease, etc, etc. And he didn’t want to discuss any of the things normal couples want to discuss and plan. So I put on the breaks and said absolutely not. He said I didn’t love him, etc, etc. The fact of the matter was that his ex wife’s insurance was no longer going to cover him. So let him get married, and consider yourself lucky you got away. I just had another blast from my past decide he wanted to get back together. I have been out of the relationship 3 years. And he recently made a move, appears to be lonely, and decided he made a lot of mistakes while we were together. I too have had a lot of time to think, and said to him, not going to happen. He had this plan of what he thought our relationship would look like if we got back together. And I thought wow, he is future faking me. And there was no discussion of my wants and desires. So I decided to send him an email. And it said why I ended it three years ago. Wanted to know what has changed, and things that I would no longer accept. And you know what? I haven’t heard back from him. So you know what he didn’t want me. And it feels real good not twisting myself into a pretzel to be what he wanted me to be, and then lose myself in the relationship. Thanks everyone on this site!
Hi Grace
I read your piece with interest as this is a conclusion I reached nearly 2 years ago and have been acting on in a concious way for the last year. My BS radar has never been so bright. I visualise an invisable shield when dealing with the work AC. This has been very effective, I think he is finally ready to leave me alone.
In the context of lying and cheating I have come to accept and believe that my values are important and when used conciously keep me out of the clutches of drama, ACs and EUM. It also helps that I am now clear about what is important to me and seek my own counsel when making decisions about my life.
You sound like me. Please know that we can make it. We are better than this. We are not that needy. You are definitely not so horrible that you suddenly made him realize he wanted to marry a woman he had cheated on relentlessly for over a decade. You are much more than he could ever be. As I write this to you, I’m also writing to myself making myself believe this even more!
My ex had this ridiculous ironic mustache, and though he is twenty-five, it made him look fifty. The fact that he was prematurely balding didn’t help either.
Anyway, he kissed me on our first date. And as we pulled away, I said, I kid you not, “I’ve always wanted to kiss a man with a mustache and it was everything I hoped it’d be and more.” *Cringe* I bet his ego grew to match the size of his giant forehead.
Tomorrow it will be exactly a year since we met. I feel sick. I feel as though I’m experiencing the break up all over again. All these memories are rushing back. The make outs, the cuddling, all the dates we went on. And then anger at all the shitty things he did. All the ex talk, drunken driving me, rejecting me physically, belittling me, future faking the hell out of me, his binge drinking, his terrible friends, his hovering mother, his impotence, and all his addictions and carelessness.
I know I should be glad he’s gone but what I really feel can best be expressed in a verse from Springsteen’s I’m on Fire:
Sometimes it’s like someone took a knife baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six-inch valley through the middle of my soul.
When does this agony end!!!??? I just want to be over this creep.
MSA – thank you for your response to my post. I think my ex could think the same about me. Where has the ever cheerleading, ego-boosting me gone? You are SO right, just drained dry. Thank you! I am still getting used to rejecting that old me myself.
Ella Mae
I read your posts just before bed last night and had trouble sleeping. I too have been in a long term marriage…and I think we face somewhat different pressures of having built up a huge “institution” of marriage, with adult children and grandchildren etc. It is hard even for us to accept that our marriages might end. And our children have SO much invested in it. It seems harder, or it did to me, to say…”NO” to part of that. I think you are in a dangerous situation because you know all hell could break lose if your affair became known. I don’t know your husband but I have heard of many cases where the mother having an affair was used to deeply alienate the children from her. I don’t want that to happen to you. I think you have to be aware of this but still go forward. I know that having affairs is dishonest especially when the real problems in the marriage or with you (you mentioned self esteem) are scary to face. Many women engage in affairs because they long for emotional engagement and communication. (The major motivation for men is sex). So already there were problems in your relationship. I think you hAVE the right AND the responsibility to really assess whether your marriage is for you, whether you want to work on it or whether you don’t. That is a legitimate question for you. But mixing it up with an affair with somebody else makes it very messy and takes away from really looking at this question in an honest way. You deserve that and your husband does too. And whether or not they can accept your decision as coming from YOU …your children as well. (but if there is “someone else” involved your children won’t hear this).
Above all you need to look at yourself and I say this knowing how difficult this has been for me. What do you want in life? Just you? What would make you happy? What can you work on to build your self esteem? Can you take one of the BR courses? Start your own personal work? Because as so many others have said here…you can’t build any kind of house without a strong foundation…with or without a man…you need to be happy with you. You may need to separate from your husband to start to figure this out. BUT NOT to run to the other man because this is NOT working on you. This is diverting yourself from YOU.
If the other man respects you and you make your message to him loud and clear that he is not a priority…then he will stay away from you. And if you really accept that you need to work on you, then you will stay away from him.
I was most worried when I read your post about your bringing down on yourself a really messy situation and then experiencing the rejection of your children and all that these relationships mean. In my separation from my ex it has been difficult to handle my kids, and to frame the situation in a way they can understand without blaming. I haven’t finished this process yet and it still frightens me. But I know if there was somebody else involved they would just focus on that. Ironically, my ex did very quickly start an emotional affair after I called it quits and was quite prepared to sleep with this woman (he met on a plane) very quickly because he just wanted to “move on” He was so emotionally detached from himself, me and his children that he envisaged himself dropping me off at the airport, rushing to see this woman he didn’t even know, sleeping with her (and enjoying it immensely as he hoped he would do – yes, he told me) and then taking a trip to take care of our grandchildren…..it makes me vomit to think of doing something like this. So I told him he was acting totally recklessly and that I would not protect him in front of his kids and that was a bit of a wake-up call for him. And honestly sometimes I really feel I should have let him take the rap (lol) but I was conscious that when a marriage is being re-examined…it has to be done fairly, carefully and without others in the mix.
I wish you the very best and I feel for you. I know how difficult it all is …and scary too. You aren’t alone…
well! shes done it again! the real truth. Ive been stalking this site since July 2013, and HAS BEEN MY RECOVERY. So keep reading, those of you you think theere may be another answer…..
Yes been there done it got the tee shirt. and NML has been my recovery, total recovery.. I’m enjoy that dating hase of three ordinary, drama free months of dating of a guy that has NO RED NO AMBER FLAGS. the peace….
and im still recovering and learning about me, who perhaps dated all the wrong guys, yes married one for 15 years, started dating, casual and unavailable of course, and then met Mr ASSCLOWN, UNAVAILABLE, and i was such a florence to him and it felt sooooo good. Rather it ticked all the emotional fear boxes.
NC, mmmm, off and on, but I regulary have looked here for my own self-validation and it works!
This post like many others help me continue NC,…. to learn from my stupid naivee mistakes (yep, I’m such a clever female in all other walks of life).and when I need to throw more rubbish onto the fire (read Nats post let the bonfire burn)I come here instead and get some wisdom instead.
For the hurt, the wounded, the confused, the rejectged, the mad, the angry, the empty, the wise, the able to give, the people that are thinking they are ready willing and want to love……keep reading, the answers are here…
Emerldeyez …..
I met my Mr Nice guy on line…. they exist! you just need to have your boundaries, self esteem in tact… on line is a way of practising that, except you need to FLUSH endlessly…..
I also think that staying out of the dating scene is great, but youve got to get out there and practice what you learn. I had 10 years of no dating at all after a bad marriage. Great, for building my own self esteeem, but you have to go, practise and learn. Otherwise, you can wait for ever. Be you, be good, be kind, be YOU. But be safe with boundaries intact,always.
I think I thought that a no dating period meant that Id be able to use that time to pick the right guy….no…..i just picked up from where I left off but I blew it it!
Now Ive learnt about me, my values, my boundaries, my self esteem, and applied them to each and every guy I meet. I watch for actions, NOT WORDS. It works…
Suzy, Thanks for the words of encouragement and wisdom. I have been open, and may get back on line, but they have to be local. The last one was long distance, and I moved 1000 miles for a world of hurt. I am every day being brutally honest with myself when I relate to people. There is someone that we seem to be mutually attracted to each other and I am working at being myself, and listening to his responses about certain things, to not ignore anything that might set off alarms. Example, he said he had a spiritual belief system, to me that was a good thing. He’s a type A, and works alot. I like my job, work alot, but like to play too on weekends. Just examples, but it’s like the discovery stage of getting to know the person. Staying out of the fantasy, and keeping my two feet grounded in reality. It would be nice to start out as friends, and see where it goes.
Thank you so much, espresso, for caring. These posts are helping to keep me sane!
Tracy
You’re right, I truly wish I could retire now but there still would be the house here to sell. The sabbatical would be at least a temporary escape from the situation here and hopefully I’d meet folk that’d value who I am. I am talking about moving an entire farm with animals along with starting a new positio. In the meantime, if on line doesn’t work, I’ll just quit again. I do realize I may well be looking at being alone till retirement. However, better that than settling for someone I do not want.
I was thinking a similar thing to Tracey Miskwa. By all means take yr time in deciding what’s right for you, & I get the logistics of all the animals etc. At the end of the day though, if you REALLY find it impossible to meet someone compatible due to where you’re located you might need to consider moving, if finding a life partner is important to you. The sabbatical sounds good. Staying single due to location issues until after retirement, I’m not so sure about. That will need to be your call. It’s ok to choose lifestyle over a r/ship as a priority but remember, we are social creatures, & I’m not sure if being unpartnered is so great for our health. There’s no point having a fantastic lifestyle if you feel down because a really important need for an intimate relationship can’t be met b.c of difficulties associated with it. I realise it’s not quite that black & white but just wanted to give you that as food for thought. x
Teachable, that is what was floating in my subconscious when I replied to her post but I was unable to get the words out. So, you agree, that moving (drastic) is some times the only way to get out of the stagnation/vacuum?
Hi Fran. I’m with you on this. Very grateful I saw the mask slip so quickly so I could FLUSH quickly! I also agree predators go after their prey when they are vulnerable, so believe me, my guard is up! What amazes me though is that can be so many whackjobs on this earth. Do they come off a factory production line???
teachable, it does seem that the world is full of whackjobs doesn’t it? My counselor gave me a book that dicussed the energy we put out and how it attracts certain types of people. I’ve stayed single for over three years so that I could work on my self esteem issues. the last joker I was with came up to me on christmas eve, he had been drinking and I was working that night. the red flags were there but i ignored them because i was feeling lonely and vulnerable. thankfully it didn’t take long for me to realize exactly what an asshat ( i love that word!) he truly was and i have been nc with him now for almost a week. in retrospect it amazes me how he was able to hone in on me that night but it made me aware of the energy i was sending out. there are good guys out there, i truly believe i’m just not ready for a relationship yet and thats ok. every day gets better and it will for you too.
Ella Rae, Hope & Silverbee:
Thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement. I will continue to press forward and leave this man in my past. I do agree, perhaps he does have an undiagnosed personality disorder. A psychopath indeed.
I don’t agree we are so powerful as to ‘attract’ whackjobs Fran or that meeting them has anything to with us at all. I rather think this a load of mumbo jumbo pop psychology that sells books but is in fact quite dangerous, as it implies that someone who harmed by one of these dickfaces, is somehow partly to blame, for having attracted them’ in the first place. This is a load of BS. Rather, creepy untoward ppl simply exist & we stumble across them at random. The only thing we have any power or control over, is firstly, recognising them & secondly, the choice & action of getting rid of them. I appreciate your empathy however. 🙂
the book was an interesting read. I can see where you’re coming from regarding the psycho babble..as someone who has read way too many self help books I know there is a lot of that out there. i do believe however that if we put out negative energies, it will come back to us in some way shape or form. it seemed like for years when i was suffering with depression and low self worth, i would have nothing but whackjobs approach me. but that could also have a lot to do with not recognizing the red flags and moving forward with these clowns as opposed to walking away from them. i truly appreciate your perspective…
PS As an example, this guy was totally sober, as was I, when I met him walking down the street, of a beachside suburb, on a hot evening. Lots of people were out walking that evening (it was early, only 9pm when we met) out taking advantage of the sea breeze & cafes to chill out. I was nicely dressed, nothing provocative about me, & he too, was appropriately dressed for the occassion. We shared an innocent coke, at a cafe & got to talking. Nothing too heavy. Just introductory as appropriate. I was feeling a weight off my shoulders that night & a more approachable, than I’ve been for a while, for this reason (i.e I was feeling happy & therefore smiling & approachable). Nothing about him seemed unusual & certainly was.not flashing any ‘whackjob please approach me’ invisible lights! lol I only met him twice more & on the third meeting I realised his charactar was a bit off & that he was therefore someone I no longer wish to associate with. You see, the trick is, I had my EYES & EARS open for those three times I met him. His poor character didn’t show until meeting number 3. My response? IMMEDIATE FLUSH. This is how things OUGHT to be. Pop psychology books that tell ppl they are so powerful as to attract this or that are misguided. Unless a person is foolishly placing themselves in harms way, they do no such thing. Life is random. How we respond to it, our behaviour & choices is not. 🙂
Thankx Teach
My lifestyle is who I am. If stuck in a city, in an apartment, no critters, no garden, no woods, I would kill myself within a week. Lived in a ghetto for a while as a kid, can’t go there again. You’d only meet folk that want a city life. The issue is that I am financially trapped; home values are way down, no high end rental market, most of my retirement was collateral for the mortgage. I am also helping out my chronically ill dad. I would loose half my salary, Retire in poverty, and not be able to afford to help out my dad nor buy another farm or even a house so I can live my authentic life. The sabbatical is a one semester escape from the AC, from the loneliness (hopefully). Hopefully there are intelligent, healthy men where I want to go (probably Vermont) and some sense of community. At this point, I don’t know what my other options are. I hate the idea of sitting on a shelf for 7 more years along with having to deal with AC for that long. Hopefully my sustainability center will be up and running after the sabbatical and I would be rarely on campus. Folks tell us to be optimistic and bloom where we are planted but perhaps a whole lotta pessimism would’ve been better. Ironically, had the deal for this house not gone thru, I was gonna quit the job rather than continue with a horrid rental situation.
I can relate Miskwa. It’s frustrating when external circumstances we have little control over are limiting our options ie property market. You sound like you have a plan though & there are extenuating circumstances with yr Father being ill. Hopefully eventually those sorts of things will resolve. What pisses me off, is that if we were men, it’s likely we’d have been in more highly paid professions, allowing us greater choices. By the time many of us realise this though, it’s often too late to start over with any realistic hope of reaching the upper salary range, in a new career, as by then, after possibly several years out to retrain, we’re near to or in our 50’s & all the best opportunities, are given to the 20 somethings, deemed to be more malleable & more full of energy. I’m stuck also by a property slump, with illness wiping my career totally out from under me, just as I was about to enter my peak earning capacity. It’s done me in so badly, I’m not sure I’ll work again for anyone, at this stage. I just can’t take anymore of the impact the BS of work politics has had on my health. I’m stuck in an outer suburban area I loathe of a big city I grew up in & would desperately like to leave but this best I could afford at the time I purchased my place. I also live in a country with rediculously high property prices, far more so than say, the US. Even so, now due to being unable to work due to illness, it’s touch n go, as to whether or not I will manage to hold on to home. I have an overwhelming desire to sell everything (aside from my music gear) & to relocate o.seas (with said music equipt in tow), where upon arriving I would pick up 2 things. A great motorbike & a 1950’s classic car (my weakness) & then get started on recording an album. Trouble is even doing THAT would only cost me MORE $, so right now, I’m stuck just trying to shore up my resources, here at home. Annoying & incredibly frustrating!
Teach
I really feel for you. You are right, if we were male, our circumstances would be very different. My last job in Montana, I lived in a two room cabin without plumbing or water and was barely getting by. My male colleagues did just fine. We’d also not have to be alone because we’d have healthy choices for a mate and many of them. Wish you could relocate to this country, but avoid this community and perhaps this state.
I’m hearing you Miskwa. On the topic though, I’d STILL choose to be SINGLE & push on through these sorts of struggles, than settle for some lying, cheating asshat. Before my health struggles, I was READY for a r.ship but have taken myself out of the dating mix until after I’ve got these issues sorted.
Fran if what yr reading resonates that’s great. Just be open.minded that your perspective might change down the track. I used to think as you do, many years ago. Then I did the work to become a healthy person & saw things quite differently after being a healthy person & living an authentic life for over two decades. I now realise I’m just NOT that powerful.
Emerldeyez
sounds good. I know I am going to sound like NML, but her advice really worked. Its knowing yourself (and loving you first), looking for core values – thats what counts, being aware of red flags etc. Sticking to observing actions not words…and theres no rush, (no fire) as people will evolve over time, at least their true selves will. Ive been dating Mr Nice Guy for 3 months now and I still have my wobbly self doubt moments, but there is nothing without risk.However I remind myself of what would be red flags for me and not let myself get carried away with future-faking fantasies (in my head), but really just take each date for what it is and enjoy. I have also made sure I keep time for me and my own interests (he does for himself as well)so I dont end up with a 24/7 investment. There are a lot a dating-advice posts on here that have helped me take my baby steps of trust.
Watch his action-based responses not his word-based responses. Watch him with others.
Its helped me to remind myself when I have met someone(anyone, not espcially a date) perhaps a work colleague, fellow gym member, person at bus stop, friend of a friend, – I havent thought even after seeing them several times, “Id like this person as my friend”….so why would I future-think a guy/date? My friends have been people I have met and our friendship has evolved and developed and become whatever it is, on what level it has evolved into.
Long distance sucks. I cant think of anything positive about it.It spells EU for me, and is a red flag for me
As for ‘mutual attraction’, ex-assclown was a dream, and I was attracted to him frm the beginning, to the rotten end and it hurt….
Mr Nice Guy, I wasnt particularly attracted, but he just kept ticking those NML boxes, and as he does I look at him now,watch him – all of him and think, this is someone who makes me feel content and peaceful(today), never fearful, anxious, confused. That makes him attractive.
Suzy, well I just did a flush job on this one guy. He doesn’t know it, but I pulled back in my interest. Found out he is separated. Though we never got that far to even discuss status, he doesn’t wear a ring. But I dont’ go near a guy unless he is divorced for several years. Even then there is no guarantee he’s still not emotionally enmeshed with his ex. I’m pretty proud of myself because I didn’t rationalize it away. I walked away emotionally. He can flirt all he wants he will no longer get any vibe from me. It’s interesting to see how the EUM works. I want more!
What is it about these guys? After a week and a half of NC this guy texts me over and over again.. I finally caved and responded. He kept telling me how he wanted to hear me say ” I love you” to him and blah, blah, blah. I was in a really bad place that day, having just lost my job and not sure if unemployment is coming through. I told him how I felt and he ignored those words..then he starts with the romantic talk..until he drops the bomb and asks me if I can go to a friend and get him some drugs. I tell him no, not going to do that for you. Silence…I feel like an idiot for caving, knowing that his only reason for connecting me was to get his rocks off and find some dope. I figured out how to block him on my cell so that has been in place since yesterday. After three years of being happily single and being able to turn down guys with obvious issues and agendas, what made this guy so different? Why did I cave? Was it the little smatterings of attention I got, the hot and cold treatment leaving me feeling confused and hopeful? I feel ok, lifes full of pitfalls and we pick ourselves up and brush ourselves off again. Just need some help understanding this or should I even try..
I’ve also had the person yell at me in the middle of the street that i was a ‘f-ing liar’ and that he wasnt a liar but only sometimes says things that arent true. At other times he saw himself as a self-styled ‘seeker of truth’ via his spiritual convictions which were mostly mumbo jumbo.
The drip is such a good description – and together with the drip is the sinking feeling of having the ground shift beneath you again and again. Nearly everything he said was a lie – which meant that the picture he presented of himself and which I accepted came apart slowly over time. He lied about small things, big things, he lied about what things meant to him (e.g. saying some past experiences of his were something wonderful when in reality they werent – as he told me later though who can then tell what the truth was). And yes, I think I am to blame for my gullibility – once I thought we both loved each other I was willing to put up with bad behavior. In fact the worse the behavior the more easily I put up with it because since I see myself as reasonable and think that if I behaved so badly and was called on it I would surely change, I accepted the same of him. Its been years since we broke up and I still feel the mind-numbing confusion of the lies, I avoided contact completely and he still would call for no reason – I suspected it was to look good to himself and our mutual friends (on the lines of ‘i’m a great guy to be in touch with my ex, we’re friends so obviously the relationship wasnt so bad’).
The other thing about lying is that it makes you doubt yourself – they will make you feel they lied becuase you are unreasonable. I always find it amusing that they were willing to do things worth lying about in the first place but then they deflect blame onto you. You will doubt your own truth, you will undermine your ability to trust yourself. That is extremely dangerous for the long run.
Moral of the story – people who lie and who dont show common decencies ARE bad news. Youre not being mean or not nice by cutting them off – this applies to friends as much as boyfriends. One or two small chances is pretty much all you should give someone. I say small chances because if a person cannot even come through on the small everyday things with any grace the odds of them being able to manage the big things is quite low.
sapphire22 –
err… what did he do? talk to you, a customer? thats not a lot. Sure hes was flirting, sounds like that was what it wassaid some nice things, made you FEEL WANTED and perhaps you have fast forwarded the rest into LALA land. Hes shouldnt have done what he did, as hes married and a potential cheat and liar…So you can now FLUSH and move on, reckonise your mistakes and meet a nice guy that will take you for a coffee and get to know YOU and you can get to know HIM.
I hope I have understood what you wrote,and not misunderstood, but this sounds like nothing real happened and you need to get your heart out of that supermarket, and just go there for your milk and bread. YOu are worth more than a guy who is just looking for an ego boost as im guessing he did he whatever he did to make you feel that way for his own enjoyment. RUN!
Love and hugs x
I’m sorry you’re so upset, Sapphire. I think these sorts of things happen. Bubbles of attraction to another person will pop up every now and then, even when you’re married or committed to another partner. We’re human beings. It sounds like he was also getting confused by his emotions but ultimately he didn’t allow anything to happen, so I don’t think he did anything too terribly wrong. I think you need to accept the reality – he is with someone else; this isn’t going anywhere. But if your job is keeping you from meeting anyone else, you may want to start considering how you *will* meet other people.
P.S. Don’t read anything into the Twitter post. I suspect that no matter what his stepdaughter had posted abouit him, you would have read it into it somehow as reflecting his feelings for you. I used to do this too so know just how it goes 🙂
Sapphire,
I hope you will keep reading BR and order Natalie’s Dreamer book ASAP. You’ve had a few flirty chats with a guy and found out he is married. End of. How can he be your soul mate if you barely know him? Falling for him before you know him is a giant red flag. Give him a chance? He’s married. He doesn’t have a “chance”. I’m speaking from experience. I gave the exMM a “chance”, actually 1,000’s of “chances”. The role of an OW sucks. He looked so sad too and was so excited when I gave him the time of day. By the end of my 2 year self-imposed torture as an OW, I was beside myself with anger. In my mind and based on my experience, unless you want to wind up an OW, don’t give this guy a sideways look, let alone a smile. Get your groceries and go home. Why did he flirt with another woman even though he is married: Because he can? Because he needed an ego stroke? Because it was fun? It really doesn’t matter. What matters is what you do. I apologize if I sound bitter. Get Nat’s Dreamer book.
Hey sapphire,
Okay I see. Well in any case, the fact remains, that he is married. Allow yourself to be angry at him. Don’t romanticize him. He is NOT your soulmate. There is someone excellent and *available* out there for you. Just hang in there. But I would recommend you start making a plan for how you’re going to meet some men. Isolating yourself seems to be creating a situation where you can fall into dreamland over the first guy you meet, because you don’t believe you have other options.
Also, in my first response, I meant to congratulate you for immediately going NC when you found out he was married. That is a very BR-positive attitude!!!
Finally, regarding the tone of the comments, please don’t be too offended. We all get and give that kind of *tough love* on here, and sometimes it pisses me off for a couple hours, and then I come back after I’ve cleared my head and re-read what the commenter wrote, and I see that she is just giving me the kind of much-needed kick-in-the-butt that we’d give our sister or best friend. At the same time, I think we’re also always half talking to ourselves, trying to build up a tough attitude against unavailable men, to keep ourselves tough so we don’t fall back into the patterns that brought us here.
Whatever has happened here, I’ve obviously somehow managed to miss that there was some conflict taking place within the comments, something I do try to keep to an absolute minimum because this isn’t a forum. I think that the difficulty with the written word is that tone and how you read back what’s written to you makes a huge difference. Sapphire, I’m sorry that you’re upset. I think all things combined, it’s understandable why you may have been pursuing virtual (no doubt you need a little attention and affection in your life which is greatly compromised at the moment) and equally it’s understandable why you may find what has been said particularly upsetting. I’ve always encouraged a respectful environment where honesty (this is a BS Diet environment) with care is very much at the heart of the community of people who share, inspire, encourage, and yes, sometimes give it straight no chaser. I do have guidelines in place both about placing comments about your situation and also about responding and if on this occasion, tone has gone over the line, I’m sorry that you’re upset. There are no arguments that take place here because it’s not a forum so it wouldn’t have got to that level. I hope that you come back but if you don’t, I understand that too. Take care.
I have written about my relationshit in some other posts. Basically I fell for someone who did not want a relationship but decided to see if we could make something work. Due to a number of reasons, mostly family issues, his needs coming first, along with distance this was not easy. Last year was especially rocky as I needed to spend long periods in my home country due to family illness. We did spend a few months together but there were stresses and strains that made me realise that it was too much hard work for the crumbs I was getting– I ended it twice but we always got back together as I could not keep away and the usual story – the sex was the best, fuelled by drama and uncertainty. He was the main focus in my life and I continued to have feelings for him even though I knew it was not working. When I came back to my own country I tried to have a break from the drama as I needed to look after an ill family member. We stayed in touch and he wanted to come and see me but I declined as I needed to focus on caring for my sister. We then stayed in contact by phone and online. He was the one who initiated chats and skype and I unwisely responded and started being reeled back back in. Sometimes the skype chats would turn sexual and he wanted to see me on camera – occasionally I did this and he would go crazy just seeing me but I never took my clothes off/exposed myself. He would say that he missed me, why I was not coming back to him, if I was looking for someone else or still at him. I tried to protect myself saying that if I came back then he would get unhappy, that I would try to please him and would become unhappy and then leave life before. I said I wanted to be with someone who wanted to be with me and he became annoyed and said he would find someone else. I kept quiet and was confused as to why he missed me, wanted me back etc when he did not want a relationship. Over the next 2 weeks we chatted occasionally as friends but I wanted to see him again when I flew back to Asia to start a new job. When I was booking the tickets he then told me he was seeing someone else and did not want to see me anymore. I was very upset and he insisted that he “did not mean to go out and leave me on a leash”. When I pulled him up on how he was talking to me he sounded panicked and said that this would remain between us, when I implied he had been cheating he denied this and said that the new person had just happened – I knew that she had been around for a few weeks. In reality we were not in a real relationship as such but then he was contacting me almost every day, saying he missed me etc and wanted intimate conversation. I am having real problems moving on as I am now in a neighbouring country and spend most of my time alone – I have met a number of nice people but it takes time to get a social life going. I know I should be NC but have sms’ed him, emailed him and have rung him twice. Today I had a severe lapse and called him – he was angry and does not want me to call again. He stopped talking and I was left rambling into silence. He said that I had walked out on him a “number of times” but this was because how he was acting. He then asked if it was all his fault and all I could say was how cruel he was and how hurt I still am (5 weeks on). When I said that he was probably shacked up with the new person he was angry with me and said he would no longer tell me anything about his life. I realised he did not care what me and what I thought, and after long periods of silence where he would not talk I just wished him well with his life etc and said goodbye. He just said thank you and I then had to ask him to say goodbye as well..he just said bye and I hung up. He then managed to delete his contact from my gmail (like he did before but I put him back in). Over the past few weeks my appetite has diminished and i am losing weight. I really am worried that I am grieving/obsessing so much for someone who only gave me crumbs – I admit that I was addicted to having him around. I was also friends with him before we became lovers and this was another strong connection. I just can’t stop obsessing and distressing over the fact that he is with someone else and that he walked away from me. I am also fixated on the idea that he cheated on me when he was being intimate with another person. I suppose I also have a number of personal issues I need to work through in order to heal. I really want to stop this obsession as he wants nothing to do with me and I have to let go and move on. I was doing so well and today I regressed so much. I am sad I will never see him again but then I spend ages plotting vengeance because I want him to feel pain like I have. I feel deceived but then I have also deceived myself as well for quite a while. I am at the stage where I need professional help to overcome this and move forward.
Meerkat, I feel for you. When my EUM AC MM relationshit broke, I did in my way too. I all but stopped eating, I was curled up in bed miserable only going out to go to work (and only part time at the time), I lost about 15lbs and this was over a month. I FELT LIKE HELL. And the only thing I could do was feel it, let it work it’s course through my system. I kept reading BR, I read books, stayed away from negative influences, talked to a good friend who’d been through the same thing (didn’t know it until I finally told her what I was going through). All you can do is go THROUGH it, it will hurt like hell, but if you avoid it you will prolong it. And once I got to the point of dragging my sorry arse out of bed again, I got a therapist.
You would think after a year of following the sound advice of Natalie, I would know better! After having my own experiences of assclownery & pooping where I eat, I would know better. But no, I was selfish & in heat. what a fool! I slept with a married coworker. Afterwards, I felt such regret. of course not during, even though that ring kept blinding me! Oh what a fool! What freaks me out is that on my day off, after telling him not to call me, that I would be working on my own projects & “hey it was a mistake, I cannot get involved with a coworker & a married coworker, save your marriage..” I tell him, “I will never tell anyone.” What does he do? He starts calling me. Wants to talk to me. Wants to come visit me. He actually made it quite easy to end this. He wouldnt leave me alone. He actually showed up with a bag of candy & condoms! I tell him, let’s go for a walk. He wants to remain friends. I was sending mixed signals. When he comes back to my place, he tries to give me a hug. “No, you have to go”, I tell him, “I have work to do & you cant understand that. I cannot bullshit and bullshit with a married man.” He actually had the nerve to pout, and ask me what he should do with the condoms. Then he tried some manipulation mindtrickery, followed by another request for a hug, and I again, tell him, sternly, “no, you are married. It was a mistake, let’s just forget about it. Don’t call me.” He left the condoms but took the candy. Thanks, buddy. Sadly, while I am ashamed of what I did, I am also relieved to know I stopped it from going further,from doing it again,I mean I actually entertained the idea!!! what is wrong with me?! get out my face. Oh, Id like to blame it on the booze but what a copout. What was I doing hanging out alone with a married man who already hinted at his feelings for me? Am I that insecure, that low in self esteem? Is my life that empty? It’s not! Is it? Am I bored? Am I afraid to get involved with someone again? Someone who is single, and available, that is.
I don’t want to date right now. I just want to focus on myself. I have to get a new job. I need a new job anyways, the pay here is awful. But was this terrible self destructive mistake a subconscious cry? and for what? I’m fine! Im fine! except for the fact that now I have to forgive myself. Oh his poor wife, to be with such a douche. All his negative talk of her, I was siding with her the whole time. Well, not really, or I wouldve at least had the sense of sisterhood to tell his drunk arse to go home. Why dont you both go see a marriage counselor?, I asked him. He told me he loves her, he wants to work it out. But he wants his cake too. His words!! Cant blame him, I was giving him a taste, right? Ha! what is that about?! Then he says they both discussed how unhappy they are. Ok, just leave married man. You are repulsing me..
I think about it, about the night we slept together, and I just want scrub my body clean, ugh, what did I do?! At least I wont have to see him for a week. But what do I do, in the meantime, while I start looking for a new job?!! Oh man, if this gets out…I feel like such a creep. And he’s a creep, doesnt even leave me candy! He actually, put the damn bag of candy in his murse!! really?!!
thank you for the soundboard, Im disappointed in myself, but its a lesson learned. Hopefully, he will just slink away, and respect my wishes. I told him not to piss me off and stay away. Let him think Im the one who is nuts. He is like a man possessed. The funny thing is, who I was 1/2 year ago would be flattered by this attention. Now I just feel like I have a whole of reevaluating, but I know that attention like that from a man, married or not, like a horny little schoolboy about to see me undress, is really not attractive. He wanted to use me, all the while telling me he cares about me and he doesnt want to lose my friendship. But friends dont try to eff you, right? I do know that I love myself more today, than the person I was a week ago who slept with that fool.
I broke up with my boyfriend of5 months about 2 weeks ago, he was an alcoholic. It took sometime to connect the dots to figure it out, but i did. I strive on being health conscoious, so there was no way that i was going to be suck into this. I also found myself adapting some of his eating and drining habits, which started on show on by face and body; definite no-no for me. I had never had the experience of being around anyone that was an alcoholic, so i didn’t know. Weekend days were filled with all day hangovers, with weekend nights were filled with excessive drinking, there was no time for anything else, he was not interested in doing anything else if he consume excessive liquor.
During the sobering hours, we culivated a very close relationship, and I miss those times, and him as well (strange as it seems). I also learned that he communicated inappropriately to females, I believe that this was a result of the drinking, I’m not sure. Needeless to say, I’m am focusing on myself more and day by day I know that I will get over him.