A few months back, a friend fumed to me about how she’d fallen out with someone who she’d thought was a friend until they told her that they’d only been doing certain things because they’d expected payback in favours. She’d been under the impression that they were mates so not only did she feel insulted, but she suddenly realised that this person had ulterior motives the entire time and she cringed as she recalled conversations where she’d confided in her.
I’d forgotten about this run-in until I was watching The Office US, my bedtime watch on Netflix. In season 3, there’s an employee who transfers from another branch and he has a gameplan of brown-nosing / sucking up to the boss Michael so that he can squeeze out another employee. At first Michael is very flattered by all of his crap jokes being laughed at, him encouraging his bad behaviour, and even the weird ‘mirroring’ but over time he starts to become uneasy and even takes to avoiding him. After this guy accomplishes his mission, somebody else explains to Michael that this guy doesn’t actually like him and has been sucking up to him the entire time. He’s really offended – he does want people to suck up to him but not because they’re trying to get something from him; he wants them to suck up because they think he’s amazing.
And then I had an A-ha moment:
When we have a hidden agenda, we’re not being ourselves because we want to be what we think will get us a relationship ( or a job, popularity, an opportunity etc) or we’re passive by trying to dodge conflict, criticism and basically anything that we think is going to jeopardise our chances of getting the prize we have our eye on, we can come across as disingenuous.
Even if the perceived reward of our masterplan is to have a relationship and give someone our love, by pretending to be something that we’re not, by busting our own boundaries and letting them take the mick with ours, and by silencing ourselves and other such painful acts, we’re not only doing ourselves a disservice but in our quest for love and validation, we’re actually coming across as dishonest.
And finally it slotted into place about why I’d disliked a particular ex, yet had felt guilty and even ashamed for not liking him – he was very passive (although admittedly that would give way to another habit of passive aggression as well).
What bugged me at the time was that he was ridiculously agreeable. He just wouldn’t be honest in terms of ‘feedback’ or his opinion. Everything was what he thought I wanted to hear, he wanted to do whatever I wanted to do (even when he blatantly didn’t), and even when I was in the wrong or he just had a different opinion, he wouldn’t express it. I’d know that he wasn’t being honest with me and sometimes I could even pick up the simmering annoyance, but he’d just smile and be agreeable and I’d be “AAAAAAAAGGGGHHH!”
It made my blood boil. Then I would feel guilty and ashamed because how could I be thinking mean things about someone who was so “nice”? I think it was why we stayed together a little longer than we should have. In the end, I ended it for a number of reasons but not least because it would have been like pulling teeth to have some mutual honesty in the relationship.
Thinking about this subject caused me to realise that I don’t like being in a situation or around people where I end up feeling guilty or even ashamed. Oh hell, who does? It also clicked with me why I’ve felt quite stressed out in the past by certain family members – I end up feeling guilty for having a memory or boundaries, or for feeling the disconnect with the ‘niceness’ and what I know.
And then I also had a cringe moment because I realised that I’ve done my fair share of playing ‘nice’ and ‘understanding’ and ‘patient’ and ‘supportive’ and ‘forgiving’ and ‘gold standard doormat’.
It’s one thing if your true opinion or feelings on something is what you say it is and being The Most Accommodating Person In The World is the authentic you, but and there is a big but, if you have for instance, been in an unavailable relationship where you’ve been the passenger to a driver doing things on their terms, can you hand on heart say that you haven’t been holding back your true thoughts, feelings, and self?
Can you honestly say that you haven’t been trying to be someone else in an effort to ‘win’ the relationship or their affections or a changed version of them? Can you honestly say that you haven’t been doing all of this stuff to prevent losing the relationship?
Imagine that you’ve actually been through a pretty rough time with someone (some of you don’t even need to imagine…) and then you’re basically telling them that it wasn’t that bad, that you love them no matter what they do, and you’re brushing stuff under the carpet or even apologising for stuff that you don’t need to. If the other party has an ounce of decency they should feel remorse or even shame. But then, they can feel ‘trapped’ by your niceness. If they’re not able to or don’t have the desire and willingness to be very different and work with you to fix the situation, they may have very conflicting feelings about you triggered by recognising great things about you but also knowing you’re not being honest and then also feeling guilty and ashamed (if they have that function…). They may even want you to be angry and some will even try to provoke it and then because you’re actually simmering with resentment, you end up erupting one day and they finally get to feel relieved of their guilt etc.
Now I know it’s not easy to say what you think, need, and expect but it’s a lot harder not to.
Any relationship worth having is mutual and has the capacity for mutual respectful honesty. If you won’t be honest in your relationships because you think it will ‘keep’ them and will even encourage them to do what you want, they not only cannot trust you to give honest feedback, but they don’t know who you really are. Or…they don’t until you start trying to ‘claim back’ for what you think you’re ‘owed’.
Losing the hidden agenda will let you be you and that means that you’ll be an authentic you in an authentic relationship instead of a ‘pretend you’ in a relationship that bears no reflection on your needs, wants, expectations and values.
Your thoughts?
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“feeling the disconnect with the ‘niceness’ and what I know.”
Brill Natalie, I couldn’t have put it on words as perfectly as you did…THANK YOU once more
This is really interesting and good – thanks Nat 🙂
I’ve been thinking a lot about relationship dynamics and the like recently (just for a change!) and it occurred to me that really the thing that corrupts ANY relationship is seeking after power and control over the other person’s will. You can do that overtly by manipulating and undermining and coercing and generally taking the mick, but you can also do it by martyring yourself, being long-suffering, trying to present a ‘perfect’ face and secretly racking up ‘debts’ that they ‘owe’ you.
I’m an expert at that, I’ve been doing it for years and the worst thing is that it doesn’t even work! They don’t care!
Further to that, I think that my coffee-bloke has disappeared off into the sunset, I am deafened by the tumbleweeds.
On Wednesday he sent me a text to let me know that – of all things – he’d caught ‘a flash of my bum’ when I got out of the car. I thought ??? and fired off a reply, saying that he was a big meanie – I’d thought I’d got through with my dignity intact this time and hoping that he was having a good week?
It occurred to me later that he was doing a bit of scoping out to find out his chances of getting laid in the near future (I suspect the correct answer was a simpering “Tee hee hee, did u like it?”). And I felt bad, and as though I’d come up with the ‘wrong reply’.
And then I copped onto myself and thought: how ridiculous. My reply was my reply and if he didn’t like it he should’ve asked with his mouth and listened to my reply with his ears instead of sending dubious messages by poxy text.
And my reply would’ve been: Do I find you attractive? Yes very. Am I going to leap into bed with you? Not unless we’re in a proper committed relationship that I think has a cat’s chance of working out permanently. What are the chances of that? Not high, given how hard you work. Do I appreciate being rushed and in receipt of slightly demeaning texts? Not a lot.
And if he doesn’t like that, then he’s really no loss. I wasn’t after someone who doesn’t think I’m worth hanging out with if there isn’t the immediate prospect of sex, no matter how good the body or well-paid the job.
I’m not good at this relationship lark (or this flirting lark or this selling-myself-as-a-decent-prospect lark or even this coffee lark, tbh) but I’m a jolly sight happier than I was when I WAS good at it, and (temporarily!) able to suppress my entire personality for the sake of (temporarily!) getting me a bloke.
And I’m really grateful to Baggage Reclaim for getting me here. I really don’t think I would’ve been able to work this stuff out for myself.
Ahmen Yoghurt. Natalie and BR saved me too. Good riddance to the disappearing coffee-bloke. In my opinion, that was a demeaning text and I think he was fishing. And it was a TEXT for goodness sake. You met him for coffee and he thinks it is appropriate to text you about getting a glimpse of your bum?
Yup I’m finding not leaping into bed is a very powerful boundary. Ahh, relish the silence of the tumbleweeds. Hugs to you and your son.
yogurt, getting a text about my rump would strike me as disrespectful and discourteous. It was a very telling text, one that tells me you are well shot of him. Better to know that about him early on rather than later when you have more skin in the game. I think that is one of the best things I’ve learned here — to consider it a good thing when a guy shows his true colors right away, before a bond has been formed.
His silence is golden. 🙂
Yoghurt,
I agree with you and the others. The text was a TEXT, first off. On top of that, he should never have mentioned whether or not he got a “flash of your bum.” Discourteous, disrespectful, immature… I agree that this was a fishing attempt, and a sorry one at that. My male friends tell me that I can’t be mad at a man for trying; the problem ensues when I allow it.
I have allowed it for years! – even after being advised by men (see above). We’re all here learning with you Yoghurt on Baggage Reclaim. Smile!
For me, it is finally sinking in now that I have my regular diet of BR. So, I’ve been attempting to carve out my boundaries…
Lo and behold, a young man I thought I was interested in called me recently and addressed me as “Big Booty.” WTF!! It was supposed to have been a “compliment” – but, no matter, I loathe being called anything other than “Miss,” “Ma’am,” or by my name (which he knows). So, instead of keeping quiet and “keeping the peace”, I asked my question out loud:
Um, why do you feel it is appropriate for you to address me in that way?
Reply: “Oh, I’m sorry…….
I was feeling swaggerish…..”
Wow, in order to have “swag” or “swagger” one must resort to addressing grown women as “Big Booty”!!!
Well, we had our words and I haven’t heard from him since.
Oh well. I figure, if I’m upset by something another person has done or said, I should upset them right back. I felt pretty good about standing up for myself for once. Perhaps I “lost” this man, but I’m betting it’s better for me without him.
Thanks runnergirl, tea cozy and high anxiety. 🙂
Hmmm.. he text back last night, so he hasn’t been ignoring me for not Playing The Game (which was what I think I was really offended by). He was just… wait for it… really busy at work.
I should clarify that he didn’t actually comment on my arse (other than to say that he’d seen it – if he’d said what he thought of it then I would’ve been OUTWARDLY and ARTICULATELY offended). Also there was a link in with our conversation about Being Dignified (the first time we met, six months ago, was the last time I’ve been Rotten Drunk). I can see that it might’ve been clumsy and relegate it down to Amber Flag status.
He’s still too busy, though, and that’s still a BIG RED FLAG so far as I’m concerned. He can express interest as charmingly or as clumsily as he likes, it’s running offa this duck’s back while he’s so difficult to get to know.
Hey Yoghurt
I’m with you on all of the above. I’ve learned from bitter experience that ‘too busy’ is a euphemism for ‘I’m not available for a relationship’. This guy seems to be awfie busy! (My ex EUM was busy personified – I’m pretty sure he still is!)
Hey Yoghurt, the minute you say he is “difficult to get to know” and he is “busy”…well we know what that means. When things are mutual, it isn’t difficult and even though folks are always busy, there is time. I just had a date with the easiest guy on the planet. We emailed four times regarding the time and place. He showed up, I showed up. And I had a delightful evening. It was really simple. He didn’t bag on his ex’s, he didn’t ask about mine, we talked and talked about things in the present. It was really neat and I had fun. Yeah, really, I had actual fun. We are going to meet for dinner this week. We’ll see if it gets to second date status! Remember Magnolia’s wifi guy’s comment:”It’s only complicated when it doesn’t work”. It has to be simple.
Yoghurt: Fishing attempt, I agree. No need to overthink it.
I got a similar text after a first date (lunch) and it completely befuddled me. This guy was not particularly handsome, he was understated, acting very civil and courteous, a tad nervous, and at any rate: a nerd. All our previous online and phone interactions had been perfectly appropriate. A few hours after this first date he texts:
“So what are you wearing – umm… doing, yeah, what are you doing?”
I was quite upset because I had not sensed any creepiness, but this was undeniably pushing it. A complete non-sequitur, and that’s what I texted him: if you didn’t feel that talking to me like that would have been appropriate a few hours ago in person, what makes you think it’s acceptable now by text?
These are grown people. They’ve had all their life to learn good manners just as they’ve learned how to feel out what behavior they can get away with around a woman. These are clues about their true intentions. They may think and even say they are looking for more, but let’s be real: idiotic and immature remarks is exactly what men avoid when they want women to think highly of them.
I agree.
Any reference at all to YOUR bum, on such a slight acquaintance, is actually them showing you THEIR arse.
cave,
it’s beside he point but am curious to know if the nerd responded to your text, which was well said, btw! (one also wonders what the hell did he think you were wearing when he saw you only a few hours before. weird. Am supposing he was offering you an opportunity to tell him about your underwear. Nice of him.)
Cavewoman and fearless :))
The comment made me laugh because I had the exact same line a hundred times from a guy “so…what are you wearing? wink wink”
He looked smart and polished in person but this should have sent the bells ringing, but nooo, I thought Oh he must be really attracted to me. I actually felt flattered! Its disrespectful and of course further down the line he showed me his true colors. Disrespecting me some more, in more serious ways. But now I know, I allowed it, so really its no one’s fault but mine. Next time FLUSH with a big smile to any dude textin references to underwear or body parts or sexy activities. Its just not cool.
I honestly *was* that naive. I thought guys that talk like that can still think of me as a vulnerable, whole human being. Nope. By the time this dude got a clue, he was so uncomfortable he couldn’t help himself but break it off by phone, after enough dates that I stopped counting (plus sex of course).
he replied much later (“oh, I just saw your reply”) and said sorry, that was him trying to be funny, the joke’s on him… But then he did it again later! It grew on me; maybe his sense of humor is that clumsy, I thought. But I was right the first time around. It wasn’t okay. Just like the next upsetting thing when he said “whatever happens, we’ll be friends” — but this is NOT how I make friends, said I (kissing stage at this point) “Oh I definitely feel like more than friends” he says. Darnit, I know a weaselly answer when I hear it! Instead of getting upset and feeling embarrassed for being upset, I should have just believed it and drawn my own conclusions and take appropriate action. The story of our lives, isn’t it.
This was a great post, Nat. Thanks. Though I can honestly say that I haven’t experienced this phenomenon in the dating world. I’ve always been a rather upfront kinda girl (“feisty” as guys like to call me, though it hasn’t always been said in a sexy way. Some of them meant “difficult” instead, I’m sure.) And the guys I dated were always very manly and take-charge. It was like two bulls in a china shop, usually. High on passion and drama. I’m too old for that shite now, though.
Anyway, my POINT is that I’ve seen this feigned passivity in my friendships instead. My best friend of 15 years (who I unfortunatley had to go NC with because of her toxicity) was like this: she played the martyr and the “poor-me” card ’til the cows came home. It’s funny how these people can’t get past the front door bouncers with toughies like me, but they slide right through the “sympathy” door by manipulating your empathetic side. Yuck.
And you’re right: the whole relationship, I felt really uneasy and guilty. Like I constantly was walking on eggshells, because she was always acting soooo long-suffering by putting up with having a friend like me in her life. Gosh. Grow a pair, I felt like saying. After I baked her some brownies. Lol.
ugh, so relate. I have a friend like that, and it is the worst of both worlds.
She can be really abrasive when she is upset about something, even if it has nothing to do with you, and then when she wants something she does a lot of dramatic sighing and pulling a “poor me” and if she can tell that you are not buying it she will try to give you a little gift to make you feel guilty.
It is so annoying because it is really all about her. I am trying to kind of phase her out of my life but we have mutual friends so this is hard…I just really don’t feel like hanging out with her, especially lately because the sighs are coming on thick and the “I never see yous” as well.
She works only 2 days a week at a highly paid job on the weekends. Her weeks are free. I work 12 hour days as a teacher all week…yet she gets self-pitying when I can’t hang out with her during the week. It is really annoying.
I am curious and this will probably come across as bitchy but does anyone else here feel like they have dumped-or want to dump-people who they used to put up with ( i.e. non boyfreinds)? I don’t know if it is getting older (46) but I am really not caring as much about female friends who bring drama in my life. I really don’t want that. In women’s circles, it seems like female friendship is so sacred but I also notice that it seems way too complicated and often too full of neediness. I have some lovely friends that are balanced and independent and even if some live out of state, I would rather spend time chatting with them on the phone than dealing with some of the women I have in my physical location as friends. Am I just heading towards menopause or something lol? what are people’s thoughts on maintaining trying female freindships?
I agree, I put it down to learning boundaries and good self esteem here on BR.
Just like dodgy internal reasons for hooking up with ACS and EUMS I have used the same internal shizzle in choosing or maintaining shady friendships.
I used to believe that if someone liked me and pursued me as a friend I had to be their friend. Plus I had no boundaries, feeling it was the sisterly thing to do to be there for hours on the phone, even if my stomach was clenching with annoyance, to be pushed around into doing things I wasn’t interested in, to be bullied, even shouted at!
I too am cleaning out my closet, it is a very difficult and painful to break the habit of being ‘nice’ but like Nat’s post said, I was never authentic anyway with these types of friends. I have lots of lets say acquaintances that I enjoy doing certain things with, but in terms of close friends – sharing inner stuff, supporting, closeness, I can really only count three. Wow! Sounds little, but believe me they fill my life up a lot!
So, dancing queen, my feeling is no its not the menopause ha ha! It’s a result of growth and boundaries. Same as with finding the right man/woman. Why wouldn’t that extend to all areas of your life?
Hey MM! Oh thank god this is boundaries growing and not menopausal rage lol. This part really resonated
“I used to believe that if someone liked me and pursued me as a friend I had to be their friend. Plus I had no boundaries, feeling it was the sisterly thing to do to be there for hours on the phone, even if my stomach was clenching with annoyance, to be pushed around into doing things I wasn’t interested in, to be bullied, even shouted at! ”
Yes I have been friends with people due to the “sisterly” thing and also, frankly, due to thinking that I had less options. I have moved so much since 2004(6 places and 5 countries…thank god I will be staying here for a while ) that I have felt kind of stuck with friends, esp in other countries where you are there for a year or two, the culture is foreign and you kind of think that you have to get what you can. I think that I am bringing that attitude of low expectations to the South;it is hard here, to meet women who are liberal and not-super religious ( you would understand the latter if you were in the Bible Belt *sigh*) so when I do find those women I keep them past their “sell-date” even if they are emotionally draining..I need to kindly evade lol.
On a side note; maybe I *should* tell people I am menopausing, and they can give me a pass for dumping them;)
Dancingqueen,
I agree that it’s maturity (more than actual age) which makes us want to clean out the friend closet. Before maturity is earned/bestowed, judgments are poor. Life is just a game of collecting friends which we think means makes us popular. We wouldn’t dream of dropping a friend unless there was an unforgiveable public backstabbing — noooo, we need to keep all our friends so that other people think we’re popular. We need to print out and hang up photos of us grinning in pairs and threes, posing with our faces so close together our cheeks are touching so that casual observers and family members think we are so so so close friends with so so so many happy people — really, we are! There’s the proof! Aren’t we CUTE?!
Only eventually we realise that negative friendships and fake friendships are not only a waste of time but they’re a front for an insecure woman who should be feeling the need to grow up. It’s at that stage when a friendship-cull is a very healthy thing. Drama queens are fun when you’re in your comparatively carefree 20s, but after that when you’ve got serious responsibilities in life, they’re an irritant and a burden. Cull ’em. Wet blankets – the Eeyore type friends you hate to see who grouch and moan every time they drag themselves out for a coffee, or who pull out of plans consistently, or who just don’t really ‘bring anything to the party’ are not contributing anything healthy to your life — they’re an energy suck and a sap on emotional support. Cull ’em.
It’s not a question of being nice. It’s a question of being real.
Grizelda,
“It’s not a question of being nice. It’s a question of being real.”
That is pinterest worthy! If you do not make a sign soon, I will:)
“Drama queens are fun when you’re in your comparatively carefree 20s, but after that when you’ve got serious responsibilities in life, they’re an irritant and a burden.”
Truest ever.
I was amazed by how low my drama-tolerance dropped when I had a baby. And the worst thing was that I was ASHAMED about it, I thought I’d turned into a horrible person and a ‘bad friend’.
With a bit of hindsight, like, I can see that someone who invites you and your two-month-old baby to their house and then deliberately picks an argument with their boyfriend about another man in your presence probably isn’t that good a friend either..
aaaarrrrrrgggggghhhhhh
I see myself all over this post and it drives me nuts.
Sometimes I really don’t know I’m pissed about something until days or weeks later, when something someone said or did finally sinks in. I totally get why my romantic interest the past few months doesn’t trust me, because he has seen mostly only that nice face and he’s smart enough to know there’s more but how do I tell someone 2 months later, “Oh, that thing you said 2 months ago? I thought of it today and I feel absolutely furious!”???
I just keep practicing, that’s all I can do…but I’m wide open for any other useful suggestions.
It’s just that the anger and thoughts get shut off so quickly, my defenses go up SO fast that I don’t even know it’s happening, I go numb or inward or something, gloss over the moment. I’ve done so much self-help and tons of therapy of all sorts and that habit still persists. It ticks me off about myself.
oh Sunshine,
have I not been there a million times aswell! Yes! The sinking in of words and actions after the date expired. It would frustrate me so much. I’d be in a conversation or ‘having a laugh’ and be so caught up in it, that I wouldn’t see when the verbal boundaries were busted. Then 2 days later, 2 weeks, yes, even 2 months I’d go *homer* ‘D’oh!’
And then -off course- the other person’s standard reply ‘you live in the past’ ‘you bring up old stuff’ ‘that’s not relevant anymore’ ‘I can’t remember I said that’ or even ‘I didn’t say that’ ànd ‘you’re twisting my words’ etc.
Very frustrating indeed. I’m pretty good in sherlocking myself into insight. Only my timing was mostly off. Or in some cases I needed a zillion opinions from others.
But since my last epiphany (which strangely was about friendship and not about my last LTR) I started to trust my own judgement and stick with it.
And all of a sudden, and this has been for a steady two months now, I’m just not worried anymore. I stopped second guessing myself and trust my first instinct and stick with it, and that phenomenon has not happened since. Because there is no reason to bite my nails and rethink stuff. I either enjoy my company and my time, or I turn my head and focus on something worthy of my time and company. Could it be that simple sometimes?
Strangely for me, it has been.
I’ve worked hard, but after a 2 year road of hell, I finally see flowers along the way. I just can’t repeat myself enough. The minute you really see and *feel* it’s a choice only you make, is the minute you make it.
Hi Sunshine I am like that too; an hour later, month later, year later reactor. It is so hard.
Your moniker makes me laugh now though, from what you just said. Sunshine does not always feel sunny.:)
Sunshine, I know exactly what you are talking about, my comment below regarding the exMM notwithstanding. As I’ve just started dating, I see my old patterns lurking just under the surface. Like you, I’ve done the self-help, therapy routine and I still go numb and gloss over the moment too. It does happen fast. I don’t intend to carry around my childhood box-o-rocks but by working through Nat’s worksheets on patterns, I realized going numb and glossing over grossly, inappropriate behavior was how I survived my childhood. Going numb and glossing over grossly, inappropriate behavior was the norm. It is a pattern I’ve carried into adulthood. This may not be true in your case. Since I know this is a pattern in my case and once I process the situation, I make a decision. I’m down to a 24 hour processing period. One day with practice, I hope to get it within the moment. You can discuss any issue any time. I don’t think there should be a time table. Just me though.
I do the exact same thing. I go numb and gloss over inappropriate behaviour and comments, as a leftover survival mechanism from my childhood. I also take forever to process my negative feelings to the situation, although at least I’m beginning to recognize that I need to be angry/hurt/whatever.
I’m working with a life coach right now, and she says the best thing to do is to check in with your feelings throughout the day. Really identify what you are feeling and describe it to yourself, write it down. Do it several times a day, until it’s almost a habit. Because we did the “fight, flight or go numb” response for so long, we have lost touch with feelings that we don’t even know we have. So we have to learn to identify our whole rainbow of feelings, and just sit with them and really acknowledge them. Soon enough it will become automatic, and we will trust in ourselves, and how to respond in a way that is authentic and self-loving. It’s really helping me. I keep a little Moleskine notebook by my side at all times for “checking in” throughout the day. If I’d done this in my relationship with the ex AC, I would have recognized how much pain and toxicity he was causing, and stopped trying to minimize it.
Oh Sunshine, been and am there!
Years of suppressing feelings left me not really knowing how I felt at any one time, completely out of touch with my emotions. It’s like a time lag on life.
I’ve found it pretty impossible to work through this by thought or logic – knowing I’m being inauthentic most of the time doesn’t really help ne deal with it.
Two things have made a huge difference, and continue to.
One is writing a page or two every morning of whatever comes into my head. It seems to clear the backlog a bit and bring me back to where I am. I start to develop corners.
The second is meditation. I don’t have to think, or try this, or try that – just by meditating I’m returned to the present moment and then during the day, I am managing to stay a little longer in the present. And that means dealing with the present and just being in it – I find on the increasingly frequent times this happens, I am just honest and open and myself, without effort, or judgement (huge part of not expressing emotions is just the exhaustion of recriminations after – was I wrong? do they not like me now? etc). And much less on autopilot.
Yay yay yay! It feels so good to read all of this yummy sharing!
I think I just found my anger with the former romantic interest. I want to scream f*ck OFF! f*ck OFF! f*ck OFF! I feel SLIMED by you!!! Ick ick ick!
Last night I felt a shock when I logged my time entry for my temp job and got a notice that my job was scheduled to end next week. WHAT?
I’m feeling pissed about my job now and how typical this is of them to make decisions about my life that they haven’t talked to me about at all (I’m sure they want to hire me but I don’t want to be permanent there) and feel like I’ve hit my limit.
DONE DONE DONE DONE.
No more f*cking niceness….
at least not right now 😀
Fifi I hear you on the meditation and writing, thanks for that. More and more I’ve been meditating and focusing on my breath and heartbeat, which this morning inspired me to finally start developing my website and intuitive practice.
Writing in the morning is a habit I know I can totally develop. Yes. I can I can I can.
I can develop and stick to healthy habits that nourish my mind, body and life.
I can shed those nasty habits I picked up from the AC who I let wreck my life and shred my self-esteem. Just nasty habits I picked up is all.
I can change.
sunshine-
if you’re going to say it, just say it. as you say, don’t be nice. its not meant to be polite, in fact its meant to be impolite.
fuck. say it with me. f-u-c-k: fuck.
better?
I typed it that way because I’m used to posting on moderated sites is all.
ok. so you know, i didn’t mean it at all as a criticism, but an encouragement, in the event that you were holding back, to let the filth flag fly.
This was totally me a year or so ago. My agenda, for a number of reasons, was to ‘get’ the guy and that meant ignoring my gut, letting things that bugged me slip and rarely if ever be honest with him or myself. I didn’t really care for this chap but he had certain superficial checklist items I thought I was looking for in a partner, so I clung on like a pitbull!! I still cringe when I think about the version of me I was then. Only when I decided to be honest with myself did I find a man to have a real relationship with, not some emotional tug of war. Things are easy now and I’m seeing my partner and me for the people we are, not some manufactured version. Keep the faith, ladies xx
Oh and the US Office is awesome! So much material in that show!
“And then I also had a cringe moment because I realised that I’ve done my fair share of playing ‘nice’ and ‘understanding’ and ‘patient’ and ‘supportive’ and ‘forgiving’ and ‘gold standard doormat’.” ….and then blowing up later? check!
guilty as charged. what’s confusing is when you’re still getting to know someone and you’re trying to be a good partner and you don’t yet know what you should let slide and what you should sit down in the road over. still, if you know that you can trust yourself to speak up calmly in the moment, even if there’s a risk (there always is) that your preference won’t be heeded or respected, then you’re less afraid of yourSELF that you might blow up later. I still haven’t gotten this down, but I know I need to.
p.s. “take the mick”? translate for us over here on the left bank of the Atlantic?
CC…..Taking the mick means making fun of in an unpleasant way, taking advantage, taking the p*ss. God I did all of this in my relationship with EUM. He must have been sick of hearing me say “I don’t mind” “whatever you want” “you decide.” I was so afraid of saying or doing anything wrong. I morphed into someone I barely recognize. I ignored red flag comments and behaviour. I didn’t ask appropriate questions. I kept telling myself I would, but when it came to it my mouth stayed firmly shut. Doormat doesn’t even begin to describe how pathetic I was. The more he rejected me and withdrew, the more I wanted him and upped the ante, being The Girlfriend Sent From Heaven Above, baking him flipping cakes, can you believe it???!!! Quite rightly he realised he could treat me as poorly as he liked and I would still be there, smiling away. Until I found Natalie and BR and dumped him. NC for ten days now.
Victorious,
I promise that I could copy your post word for word, because I just finished doing that exact same thing. Things came to a head in June (I blew up, to a degree, and he didn’t like it) and we’ve been NC since. I’m ashamed that I’ve counted the time…
In any case, you wrote:
“Quite rightly he realised he could treat me as poorly as he liked and I would still be there, smiling away.”
When this happened to me, I rationalized that he was a “bad” person for “taking advantage of my good faith” but I swear, this doesn’t always make me feel better that I presented a very poor representation of myself to this man. I am often saddened that I didn’t speak up when I should’ve or took a month to come up with an appropriate response to something completely effed up that he said.
One good thing that has come out of it, though, is that I realize we have different values… When I realize I could take advantage of someone who is willing to let me, I do not. He does. I cannot reconcile that sort of value system with my own.
That’s exactly right High Anxiety and the only way to see this is as a learning experience. I have never been involved with anyone EU before so I just wasn’t prepared. I believed all the future faking. I was so sucked in, so that when he flicked the switch I was floored and so desparate to get back what “we had” before. We had three perfect months where I was the centre of his universe and then one month where I was literally scrabbling around, sniffing and begging for the pitiful crumbs he would deign to drop for me. In doing this I became a different person entirely. However, he knew I was very inexperienced and like you say, he should not have treated me like that. A friend would have taken more care as I was clearly vulnerable. Don’t beat yourself up about it. You acted in good faith and you were not trying to screw anyone over. Your “shame alarm” has finally gone off and you need to be pleased that you canmarch off into your life armed with all this new information. Good things are waiting out there for you.
Take the mick = take the piss.
Trying to get away with abusing someones good faith.
thanks for the translation! also for the incidental translation of “take the piss”, which i wasn’t sure of, either.
I liked this line:
If the other party has an ounce of decency they should feel remorse or even shame.
Not sure any Mr. Unavailable has those feelings:)
…the other thing too is that we’ve all gotten negative feedback for being ourselves, generally from tiny-ego asshats who felt challenged or threatened by our awesome (female) power (haha) or those who didn’t like it that we DID have boundaries that inconveniently interfered with their agendas. we need to properly value and love ourselves so we can recognize these individuals and tell them where they can stick it.
Yes I got terrible feedback from some MadMen-type coworkers who were openly offended that A Woman wouldn´t be their doormat and wanted to be treated as an equal.
It was extremely confusing, I was doing the right thing (standing up for myself), why didn´t they respect me as I was respecting myself?
So finally I understood that sometimes you will run into unpleasantness and conflict when you assert yourself and also when you don´t, but the conflict of the first type is worth it.
Alice Miller, the brilliant psychotherapist and author, wrote in her book “Thou Shalt Not Be Aware” that a person is as honest as their parents allowed them to be growing up. I constantly told my parents what I thought the truth was, and I was constantly shot down and told I was “wrong” and “bad” for those insights. I learned to shut them down. I learned to lie in order to be accepted. Until recently, I lied in relationships and was MISERABLE, like I was as a child. When I got to be 50 my “I don’t give a damn” kicked in and now I call ’em as I see ’em. I still experience some rejection…but more often than not, I am respected for my honesty. I am not in a relationship right now, but if and when I get into the next one, that person is going to get the Full Me. My fellow BR people: no one should ever get anything less than Who We Are. Blessings!!
Healing one, “a person is as honest as their parents allowed them to be growing up.” Thanks for the insight and book reference. Will comment on that below but first…
Oh this literally made me shudder. That makes sense why it is hard to recognize my emotions at times. Need to rant a bit to get it out…
My dad could not have understood his feelings, nor validated ours, if a suicide bomber had taken us hostage. You were simply not *allowed* to have feelings at my house unless they were 1) positive and 2) quietly positive at that. It was like a funeral parlor full of sadness and rage just simmering. Ugh.My stepmother once actually told me to smile when she was beating me up and I did it, a few times. Just…ick.
When my mom died when I was 8 and my brother was 10 my dad refused to talk about it AT ALL, threw a fit at the neighbors for filling our fridge with casseroles even though we had spent nights at their house when she was sick, married the first woman that he dated 6 monthes later and moved us across country to live with her, a violent alcoholic, leaving our cats behind and our friends.It was like our life was gutted of anything familiar.
We *never* spoke about my mother again, until I was *34*. And even then we did not; he was selling the house and he just sent a box of photos to me with a note that I could have them. Prior to that, he had taken all the pics that she existed, all the things that were images of her, and put them in the attic. I did not see a pic of my mom, or me from that era from 8 until 34.It was not only like she died, but as if she was disappeared from ever existing.
My sister-in-law always says that she thinks my dad was traumatized by my mom’s death and thus, unable to deal. I however, as I am getting older, feel less inclined to feel sorry for him; he was 49 years old! Deal with emotion for christs sake.
Yeah, fine, he had a hard life; 2 wars, grew up in the Depression with no dad, but oooh just thinking about the heavy secrets…that is why it is so hard to find balance; I feel such a need, when people try to squelch me from speaking the truth, to say it, I feel like I must get them to validate me-so pointless!, but it goes so deep- but equally, I often shove it down like a unmourned person.
Thanks for this comment as well
“When I got to be 50 my “I don’t give a damn” kicked in and now I call ‘em as I see ‘em. I still experience some rejection…but more often than not, I am respected for my honesty.”
Just when I think I am healed another onion layer emerges egh! Gotta go run and then to the book store!
dancingqueen-
i’m so very sorry about your mom, your dad’s handling of her death, and your evil stepmonster.
you are to be commended for your resiliency, your tenacity and your adorableness.
massive hugs
aww thanks CC…as far as my “adorableness” there are people that would question that statement lol, but hey I salute your adorableness as well!.. even if it is being hidden in a genie bottle right now:)
It is so weird, I think that a lot of us here came because of a man but we stay because we realize that so much before…created that situation with the man. Oh well, onwards and upwards right:)?
On a side note, do not know what will happen with my hand-kissing swain…he was not at run club on Wednesday, and if he is not there this week, then I will not see him again for maybe forever as I will be teaching the adults ESL at my school every Wednesday night until June…oh well maybe he will be there:)
…maybe he pulled a hamstring. i hope that he is there and that his intentions are honorable.
OMG OMG OMG!!!
That really resonates!
Even today, my mom shoots down everything my father says he thinks and feels that she doesn’t like or feel comfortable with.
Dad: I think/believe/feel XYZ
Mom: You’d better NOT!!
Err…
makes sense now.
When I was vomiting and throwing up in the toilet when I was pregnant at 15, my mother said, “You’d better NOT be pregnant!” and shuffled me off to her best friend to arrange an abortion and then dropped me off at a cousin’s place for the weekend so she didn’t have to be confronted with reality.
When Child Protective Services came out to investigate abuse, my dad sat there and somehow manipulated me in front of the social worker to ‘admit’ that everything was my fault, that I started everything (because I made him drink and I made him hit us and I made everyone unhappy with my unhappiness over being abused).
Oh gawd.
Alright alright, I can stand to be kinder and more forgiving of myself, it’s not like I was a born liar and I’ve spent most of a lifetime lying about and hiding my feelings from myself so it makes sense that it wouldn’t all come undone overnight (although I don’t quite believe that I shouldn’t be able to instantly transform, lol).
healing one-
woo hoo! i grew up in a crazy house, and i’m the kind of person who can’t not point out the elephant in the room – trust me, this made me unpopular in the house – so i learned to suppress it and lead a double life.
eventually i had to start being honest within myself so i wouldn’t feel crazy all the time. i couldn’t hack the denial any more. its very difficult to do this, though, to be completely authentic, and to attempt to do it in a pleasant way, in order to minimize the rejection it inevitably brings.
but i’m with you – i won’t apologize for who i am or how i feel or what i want or what i need. and my dream is to find a relationship that lets all that happen for me and for him.
blessings back.
This could not have come at a better time. This is so me. I still have the habit of trying to do, even say things, just to avoid conflict…. sometimes friendships drag out for longer than they should because people have this perception of you that doesn’t tie in with who you really are and what you really value as a person. On the other hand, finally starting to live by your values instead of doing and saying what other people would like will weed out your true friends.
For me, doing everything possible to avoid conflict actually makes me feel uncomfortable, probably because I’m becoming more aware of who I really want to be as a person. I actually feel much better when I opt to stick to my values instead and let come what may.
I knew a person who, in trying to be nice, liked to say “maybe” in response to everything, and ultimately I learned this really meant, “Sure I’ll do it…until something better to do comes along.”
This great post clearly reflects me in the relationshit with the MM. I was not my real self at all. I was overly accommodating to his, unreliable way of calling or showing up whenever HE CHOSE. He would keep me waiting for hours on his ass to come over to my apartment. When I recall how I was so dishonest with myself, and the complete opposite of the real me I’m disgusted. I changed for him accepting everything he did because I wanted the sex so desperately, but even moreso I wanted to WIN. How I could have ever thought there was a rat’s chance in hell that he would leave his wife for me?!! I’ll never know. What’s more, I knew all along that I could never be happy with him because he would do to me what he was doing to her, especially when I was 12 years his senior. WTF? A future with that lieing, cheating dog? No way and I knew it. I just wanted to get him away from her. What folly! We sure can lie to and make fools of ourselves without much help from the AC/EUM’s! When I finally sent him packing, which not surprisingly consisted of my erupting and using such foul language he had never thought I was capable of, and I never thought he would hear it. I had always been so sweet and loving. HA! Where did it get me? It was so freeing. Such a tremendous relief of no longer having to stuff down his s**t, (now I know why cc always uses barfing ) just so that I could keep him longer, and even knowing it was only temporary. It was one of the biggest epifanies of my life. And, what he did to cause my explosion was really harmless compared to all the other BS I he had done. The more I thought about how he had treated me and how much of my real persona I had suppressed, I could not break NC in a million years. Now, I am so much more content and relaxed, because I can be my true self. I know I am a good person and I know I deserve much better. The only undesirable outcome is that I’m oversensitive to another Joe Blow coming along and trying the same. I don’t think it’s possible to come out unscathed in a relationshit with a MM. It is extremely damaging to the psyche, and impossible to win. Hope what I said is relevant to the post.
Oh Tinkerbell,
You did a great thing in using foul language and going postal on that MM ass:)
So glad that you did it!
Yes, I finally spoke my truth yesterday but that was because I felt I had nothing to lose anymore as he had just told me that he only wanted to be friends now. Of course I am shattered, however I finally had the courage to tell him his treatment of me had been appalling. There was no excuse for standing me up, lying and shutting me out. So apart from the fact that I have to look after myself which means I cannot possibly be friends with him, I also told him he had not been a good friend to me IN the relationship so why would he be a good friend OUT of it. Anyway, I did feel a bit more empowered for having spoken my truth finally. And I think as a result of this, yesterday I felt like I wasn’t going to let this sadness beat me down forever. Today is a different story. All I can feel is unbearable pain today. I really hope that empowered feeling returns at some point.
Scarlet, I hear you again.
Allow silence to take over now that you’ve spoken. You’re satisfied it was a strong enough message, but let it stand alone. At this very stage in the process, silence is strong and costly, talk is weak and cheap. Your mind will still be calculating those ‘killer lines’ you should have said instead, or new perspectives you think would push the right buttons. Don’t be tempted by this. This is clutter. This is noise that will denigrate the key messages you’ve finally given.
You understand the ‘wanna be friends’ thing and what are its implications, right? BR has a million perspectives on this queasy compromise. Everyone will have their own faves but I like the perspective: Do Not Demote Yourself.
What you need to do now is run away from that burning house of emotional horrors as fast as you can, and don’t turn back to look until you’re a safe distance away. Do not keep putting your hand back in the fire. While you are running, reflect on how much you bent and twisted and contorted yourself trying to be permanently ‘good’ or ‘nice’ or ‘accommodating’ or ‘benevolent’ or any of those things we as girls are socialised from birth to be — at a massive cost to our health and our psyches. Reflect on how you were used. Reflect on how all that niceness and give-give-give got you nowhere with an EUM but a ride to a place where the pain is so much greater than had you kept your boundaries and sensibilities.
Get a new notebook today and start writing down all your thoughts and feelings word for word. Talk to yourself in writing. Do it for hours at a time if you feel the need. Sleep with it under your pillow and keep going. Seven days later, re-read your notebook. You’ll see your own thoughts progressively calming and improving and becoming more ordered as the time goes on. You’ll spot your denials, your justifications, your anger, all coming out in a healthy and constructive way. This is good, and this is healing. And you’ll also spot things you wanted to express on Tuesday which, by Friday, seems entirely inappropriate and kind of crazy. This is normal. This is proof the bad ju-ju is exiting your body and mind. THIS is what empowers you.
Please stay with us here at BR and keep us updated on your progress. Our concern and love for each other on Natalie’s site extends to you personally — YOU PERSONALLY. Remember this.
Thanks again Grizelda. I feel like you get me. Weird, huh, since we don’t know each other.
I can assure you I have no intention of being friends with him, because that would be NOT being friends with myself. It would just be throwing myself back into the fire. It would just hurt too much, so as much as I miss talking to him and if i am honest, I am tempted to call him. But I know it would be “demoting myself” and I would feel way more hurt than if I’d stayed away.
I just hope this is a healing process for me because every intimate relationship I have ever had, starting with my mentally ill mother, would withdraw from me and go silent. And up until a few days ago, that little girl would just try to get them back. Now I will call bad behaviour (silence, unreliability, broken promises, dismissal and neglect) for what it is and not be too scared to lose that person forever.
Thanks again for your support. I will keep you updated through this journey of heartbreak.
Hi Scarlet,
I love to give unsolicited advice, ha, ha! The first rule of recovering from an AC is making sure you don’t have too much time on your hands. You may like getting educated on my latest hobby: options trading, pretty lucrative in today’s volatile markets, I do it with little amounts. The returns: 60 EUR here, 80 EUR there, not much, but sometimes on the same day, and all I do is input an order, sometimes on my phone, literally a matter of minutes. What do I do with this cash? I blow it on facials, massages, beauty treatments, etc. oooh, aaah, yeeeh! Of course it can go in the other direction, but that’s what you will get educated to prevent, no big deal, actually, will keep your mind nicely off the AC, and do wonders for your self-esteem. Big hugs!
Scarlet
Don’t let your feelings run the show. You know it’s best to nuke him. Tough it out. There’s a lot you can do for yourself, eat well, exercise, make your home comfortable, make new friends, learn new skills, commit to your job,, and when you’re nice and happy with that, wham, a suitable man will come along and muck it up!
Fond as I am of my boyfriend, I was so committed to the single life i had before him thats it a wrench that it is gonna have to change quite soon and quite quickly if he’s “the one”. If I let my feelings run the show I’d have bolted several times by now.
Yes we pay attention to our emotions but don’t let them lead you down blind alleys and into bad situations or keep you stuck. Sometimes all you need to do with a feeling is acknowledge it and move along.
Wow Grace that was poetic and just what I also needed to hear. I have copied and pasted and emailed it to myself. It’s my birthday tomorrow and every chance ex EUM will contact me. Obviously it will ruin my day if he doesn’t but I promise myself I will ignore him if he does. I am FORBIDDING myself!!!
Hey Natalie,
My agenda was so hidden even I didn’t know what it was which may explain why I got involved with a MM! I’m pretty much over kicking myself but after exploding repeatedly over the two years saying exactly what I thought, I’d wake up in the morning, take it all back, brush my anger/unhappiness under the carpet, apologize, and dawn my best ‘pretend me’ outfit. It’s like he knew that is all he had to do is ride out the storm and I’d be back. He knew my actions weren’t going to match my angry words. I was the women who screamed too much. He was the recipient of some extremely honest feedback but I never acted on it until I discovered BR. Thank you. Is there such thing as aggressive passive?
Runner, you just hit on something. Aggressive passive, what a concept. I believe that described me too in the abusive relationship I was in for 4 years. I threatened to leave a lot, yelled a lot about my rights and my pain, but I stayed. I was honest without holding back which amounted to verbal diarrhea , but did nothing to help myself besides telling him all about himself and myself. Crying wolf, but the wolf was all bark, no teeth. I ended up invalidating myself. He figured it out, and yes like you said, he waited out the storm each time, then resumed acting like an ass for round 100. I left eventually and actually surprised the crap out of him. He never knew I had it in me.
“he waited out the storm each time, then resumed acting like an ass for round 100”
This is me-agressive, passive. I immediately stick up for myself then get backed into a corner when I see enforcing a boundary is not going to end well. In my marriage, I screamed and yelled about my rights, he would change his behavior for a bit until I calmed down then he’d go back to his old ways. He counted on this behavior from me so much that when I finally left he howled like wounded dog.
Aggressive passive! I’m with Selkie: you’ve nailed it. There’s a book in there.
I have an ex that was much like NML describes here, and I really appreciate her write-up of the situation, because I lived it and still sometimes, even recently (the relationship was nine years ago) think of how “nice” he was. He was kind, yes, and supportive in a number of ways but he practically begged me to tell him what I wanted so he could give it to me, and all I could say was I want you to be your own person, not who I tell you to be. Thanks for putting it in terms of trust (I struggled with it as an issue of respect – I found it hard to respect him.)
The ex-landlord’s behaviour has much in common with the behaviour discussed in this post: I think she believes herself to be a good person, generous, and victimized; from my perspective she lied about what she really wanted. She renegged on what she had offered, saying she’d been too nice and seemed to expect us to agree with her.
I left not so much because of the price or unreasonability of what she was pushing for, but because of the impossibility of trust, and the disrespect she showed us when she seemed appalled that we didn’t understand or acquiesce when she explained the reasonability what she *really* wanted.
To bring it back to relationships, if I were a guy who was dating the exLL and she had presented herself, as I have tried to do with guys, as a woman with no needs, who wants casual, and who doesn’t mind my behaviour, and then suddenly she was like – but you knew I was being too nice! You actually need to behave better and meet my needs! I might be like, girl, but you entered this deal presenting yourself as a certain thing.
This last episode has changed my sense of risk: I remember how risky it felt to stand up and walk away from the deal at first. When I didn’t, the heartache and headache that came after that was simply tacked on to the original dilemma, and I still needed to stand up and walk away. There was no win at all in being passive; passivity cost me a lot of money, energy and time.
Magnolia,
I really appreciate your comments:
“When I didn’t, the heartache and headache that came after that was simply tacked on to the original dilemma, and I still needed to stand up and walk away.”
I have found that I must listen to my instincts, which are usually right. I fail to listen or heed them, and find out later that I had the best answer for me the first time.
Thank you for this response 🙂
@Magnolia “But you knew I was being too nice! You actually need to behave better and meet my needs!” Right on! Let’s not be ridiculous! This kind of reality check is what I enjoyed most about this post — it sets a mirror in front of our groveling selves.
@Grace: I am really starting to enjoy singlehood, sort of cherishing it and hoping it’ll last! (Which shouldn’t be a problem I suppose) And that means that disappointing guys don’t disappoint me excessively any more. Not fearing excessive disappointment, I don’t find myself working extra hard at pretending I’m not disappointed. Oh, make no mistake about it: I don’t exactly shrug it off (yet). I get all indignant, I act insulted, I huff and I puff.
To everyone: life is good! Really! So very good without assclowns (once you tend to the other things and people, including yourself, that you neglected while you were busy trying to be too nice to someone undeserving).
Agree!!!
No win, I should say, except for the short-term “win” of avoiding people expressing that they think I’m difficult or picky.
It´s sad but I really recognized myself in this post. I know I´ve acted the nice and understanding role many times (mainly because I´m afraid of being angry, so I hide those feelings).
But it got really tricky with the ex EUM because I thought I was being smart-aleck with him (and thus saving myself from being miss nicey-nice). So, whenever he “forgot” to contact/see me when he said he would I just pretended not to notice. Not as a victim/understanding saint/caring florence, but as the “Oh you weren´t there, gosh I didn´t notice I have so many beaus calling me (not so), I´m just like Scarlet O´Hara”. It helped me save face and I also believed he would eventually get curious enough to get close to me, much like my cat does (run after him and he´ll hide, mind your own business and he´ll come sit on your lap). Unfortunately, EUMs aren´t cats.
It didn´t work.
And worst of all, this facade didn´t let me be me.
When I finally told him “okay lets cut the cr*p, do you want to be with me or not?” I got more of his FF, BS, hot and cold treatment, ambiguity, all the EUM strategies I was used to.
It didn´t make any difference!
I could´ve saved myself months of heartache and low self-esteem if I´d just let my feelings out when I felt them and been upfront with him.
I promised myself to never ever do that again. There is this AC who wants me to join his text-a-lay team, I´m planning to tell him “I don´t do casual sex, bye” next time instead of my usual lame “I´m too busy”-excuses.
“…much like my cat does (run after him and he´ll hide, mind your own business and he´ll come sit on your lap).”
Ha. Lol. See! I’ve said it before on BR and I’ll say it again – cats are EU! 🙂
Too funny Fearless. I remember your comments about cats. My dog was totally underfoot from sun up to sun down. Miss her. She was too available!
Funny, never saw it that way with cats… hm, dogs are definitely more mutually interested, four paws in, plus wagging their tails… when trained…I may look differently at dogs. 🙂
Lilia,
Lol @ text-a-lay team! I have a married serial cheater phoning me again after one year (I think)… The issue was that he wasn’t married when we met but married and then attempted to recruit me into his heavily populated harem. He told me about how he had stopped contacting one woman who told him that she couldn’t bear to communicate with him b/c she couldn’t have him… so I tried that, too. He refused to listen, so I stopped replying to his texts and stopped answering his calls cold turkey. Now, he’s calling back — yet again. I think that he thinks I FORGOT he was married. Furthermore, I think he thinks I FORGOT that he is a serial cheater. I have ignored his calls thus far, but I am thinking that if I ever happen to answer him I will say as matter-of-factly as I can muster:
“Look, I have ignored you because I am not interested in talking to you. You are a married serial cheater. You are not the end-all or the be-all, and you have nothing to add to my life but drama and heartache. PLUS you wanna eff up my relationship with the LORD… Please do not call me again or I will call the police and file harrassment charges against you.”
…or something along those lines… lol 🙂
Lilia, if Mr. EUM/AC texts you again, I would probably text back exactly what you wrote PLUS “Do not contact me again.” Then, I would ignore anything coming from him after that. Best of luck!
Thank you Natalie for another wonderful post.
You saying: “Can you honestly say that you haven’t been trying to be someone else in an effort to ‘win’ the relationship or their affections or a changed version of them?” Yes Natalie, we cAnt please and pretend forever, one day we have our “CANT DO THIS ANY MORE” moment. I had four relationships in my life (with 1st one I was wife, with 2 – girlfriend, and the two last ones – lover/booty call girl) I never bothered with cooking/cleaning/ironing for my men, I was not a doormat, I was rude and opinionated, but when it was time to give them sexual favours, somehow I was weak to say “NO”! Even I did not feel used in domestic things, I was used sexually:-( My men were waiting for two months before being intimate (except the last AC, who I slept with on second or third date)but it did not help me…I am trying to change my pattern and keep my boundaries:-) I have to be honest with myself and do not pretend anymore with whoever I am with! YES!!!
Sorry Natalie, I just want to add to my comment, that I was not bothered to cook/clean/iron for the last two men…I was not that bad with my ex husband and ex boyfriend:-)
Thank you Nat for writing this! Your words really spoke to me in that I saw a lot of myself in your writing. I am pretty good about setting boundaries and laying it on the line from the get go. The problem is that I get sucked in by the initial acts of fake love, care, and respect. As a result,when they change and show their true selves, it’s hard for me to walk away initially. I tend to stay and change my behavior in the hopes of salvaging a relationship that is unsalvageable. After a couple of extra months of putting up with their foolishness, I finally come to my senses and kick them to the curb. Feeling hurt and angry, I then come to your blog to vent about it.
Thanks to you, I am able to look at my behavior in a different light and make postive adjustments (i.e., break my negative behavioral patterns)
Nat, isn’t it wonderful to have found your purpose in life?? Keep on doing what you do girl!! You are are a godsend 🙂
Natalie, I feel like my guts have totally been ripped open after reading this post. I really think I needed this shocker to finally start being honest with myself after bending over backwards for an EUM for 10 years until he hurt me so bad psychologically that finally it clicked for me and I left our home within 1 minute with just the clothes on my back and my laptop that happened to be accidentally left in my car. Thank you so much for sharing your insights with us – you have helped me tremendously ever since I stumbled across your blog, but especially tonight with this post. Every word – you’ve nailed my modus operandi that I need to stop acting on PRONTO if I want to live an authentic life. THANK YOU! xoxo
Years ago I was “Nice & Passive” in the hopes of winning back my ex. What a mistake, not only didn’t I win him back (Thank God) it only made my self-hatred more intense. For me my heart vs my head conflict was at best overwhelming. I would plot and scheme daily but at night lie in my bed and cry over my perceived failure.
I learned the hard way that it too exhausting to be anyone but yourself in order to have a realationship. If you lose yourself to accomodate someone else there is nothing there and most likely they aren’t worth your effort to begin with.
Oh Dear… I did this a lot in my last relationship. I was just going along with what he set in motion – ie unavailable style of relationship afraid to say what I really want in case he left, being as accomodating as possible not complaining much… But then after the first year every 8 months or so I would get really angry and send him very grumpy texts… He recently said he was totally over these texts…but has done nothing to fix the issues other than in the short term. I am completely over it – the last argument I was very honest and asked him what was really going on for him and refused to accept evasive answers…boy did he get angry and rejectionary all of a sudden! Kind of put me off him…
Natalie, Great article.
I recently entirely gave up trying to be certain way or control outcomes with a guy. I just gave up and assumed that what would emerge would be a boring bland friendship or that he would just drift away. I had noticed the guy getting more distant despite all my attempts at re-jigging myself. What has happened as a result is that the friendship is more satisfying and ‘nourishing’ because I am not trying to achieve anything within it. I am allowing more of my mature adult thoughtful self to emerge. I am a grown up not a little girl. I don’t think we have a romantic future but the whole friendship is re-energised because I have stopped trying to make anything happen at all. I am free to react as me in the moment rather than asking myself ‘what would an attractive woman do now?’ etc
Another post that hits home Nat! My ex Paul was the classic passive agressive who was on the outside pleasant, super nice, sweet (and seen by others like that too) but when he was irritated/angry/upset he couldn’t express it – even though it was clear from his facial expressions and body language. It was like being with someone who was two different people and the fake one was trying to hide the real one. It was not authentic and very hard relating with him – or just impossible! And the ironic thing was that I had a wonderful male friend who is authentic, decent, respectful, caring and cute and really liked me – but because he wasn’t tall, dark, handsome and rich, I went for Paul who had all those superficial things. And now my friend has moved on and fallen in love with another woman, and the regret is very hard to face. This is an example of what Nat says about figuring out your values. I have totally learnt a very hard lesson and I’m going to make sure it doesn’t happen again. I’m valuing authenticity, kindness and being genuine over the superficial traits in all my relationships now. Being happy in a mutual and genuine relationship is far more important than being unhappy with someone who is conventionally/superficially attractive.
It’s really interesting that you say this. I am only 5 months single, so not yet ready for another relationship, but my past 2 relationship failures were both with objectively excellent men (tall, dark, handsome, rich, successful, etc). 6 years between the two of them, and most of those years were unhappy.
Meanwhile, my ‘best’ guy friend has also just become single. And he is everything I want = kind, genuine, interested in me, loves me for exactly who I am, enthusiastic, generous. But he is not tall, handsome, or rich. When he broke up with his girlfriend my heart skipped a beat. Other friends have said I should consider it. I probably should, but I’m not ‘attracted’ to him. Maybe I should be, and I’m just messed up. I know he is attracted to me.
I dont want to be like you, and look back on this period and regret not going for it. But he is also such a good friend that I feel we have a lot to lose if we tried and failed…
Almost every single female on the planet is socialised from life’s first breath til life’s last breath that they must be nice. Accommodating. Giving. Appealing. Compliant. Supportive. Agreeable. Understanding. Patient.
We’re told this is how we’re supposed to act and be. By implication, transgressing these ‘ideals’ means that we’re not only letting down our foremothers who knew a thing or two about how to deal with men (oh yeah???), but we’re letting down society as it busily instils into boys what an infinite supply of accommodating niceities and understanding support they can expect from girls.
Websites such as this one are an amazing tool for breaking down barriers and allowing us to compare notes and share experiences and, hopefully, start to dictate change where change is needed.
i’m currently listening to an amazing audiobook rendition of ‘the age of innocence’ by edith wharton. it examines, in gorgeous, illuminating, and probably seditious detail, a lot of this stuff. read it. or better, listen to it. and it was written at the turn of the last century.
Natalie, since the trauma of my divorce, and the feelings of worthlessness and me not being good enough and having myself subjected to unspeakable amounts of emotional abuse and thinking it was my fault, I bloody well salute you for helping me to become the person whom I should have been all along: grounded, sure of myself and with the right to enforce healthy boundaries of what I am going to tolerate in my life and what I am not going to allow in my life. You deserve a bloody Nobel Price for your good deeds to people like me whom you don’t even know! Or at least you deserve to be president of whatever country of your choice! Your blogs helped me more than any therapist has ever been able to help me! This blog is worth its space in gold, or platinum, or whatever metal is the most precious!
@Moving forward – that was a very courageous move 🙂 I hope that you live the authentic life you want to – this is a great start!
Thanks for your encouragement, Deep!
I really enjoyed this article. It’s very familiar to me. I have recently been reading some books by Debbie Ford who looks at self development from the perspective of exploring our ‘shadow’ side, basically the respressed aspects of ourselves (which can be good or ‘bad’). The being ‘nice’ thing can also help disguise the ‘bitch’ aspect of ourselves because we don’t want to accept that actually, we can be bitches (or equivalent quality)! Accepting this can help us value the aspects we don’t necessarily like, (but are there nonetheless), so that they can be used at appropriate times through choice and within our awareness. Thanks for this timely reminder of the importance of taking responsibility for ALL of ourselves.
Dancingqueen: it is not menopause. I believe that the older we get the less bullsh*t we are willing to put up with. I had to kick three girlfriends to the curb because one was the jealous type, and the other two weren’t really true friends–except when they needed something! When I went into the hospital to have a hysterectomy, I did not hear from them until a month later! Over the years I have gotten pretty good at letting so-called female friends go. People can only treat us according to how we allow them to.
Thanks Gina,
Yes I agree, the older I get the less bull I put up with and moreover, the less I feel like I need to defend myself.
How fun is that!?:)
The other day my drama queen coworker accused me and another colleague of doing things that we had not done and she called us “unprofessional” in this epic, childish, unsubstantiated email that was the epitome of unprofessional. I respond calmly with facts, offered to have a meeting with our boss to make sure that we are all aware of the facts and heard back with….tumbleweeds. What was a realization later, was that I never even said “I am not unprofessional” or “How dare you call me unprofessional”; I just acted professional back. Years ago, man would I have told her that to defend myself. If this is how assertive 46 is…watch out world for my 50’s lol!:)
oh shoot I am so sorry I also meant to say…any lame friend that cannot visit in the hospital, ugh, yes kick them to the curb! You know honestly, even one good friend in life is better than several faux friends, good for you for NCing them:)
Been with and been that. Oy!!! And its hard to watch the Office because Michael is SO SELF ABSORBED!! But I do. 🙂 Funny!
I’ve been too nice all my life. Many times, I make sure no one is offended or put out, even at my own emotional expense. It’s nauseating actually. I have gotten the feeling I annoy people sometimes. Too nice IS annoying. On the other side of the fence, I’ve dated a few men who were too nice, too accommodating, too ready to be what I wanted and it got on my nerves and like others have said, I found it hard to maintain respect for them. Recently, my mom came to visit me from out of state for two weeks, and it was very eye opening for my own behavior. We get along like sisters, but I noticed she tends to be too nice. She never had an opinion and always deferred to me about what we did each day, what we ate, what movie we watched, pretty much everything, she would say yes, but I heard ‘no’ in her tone. It actually became tiring to try and read her and guess what it was she really wanted. I finally said, ” I wish you would offer an opinion so it feels more balanced.” She shrugged. She grew up watching her Mom do the same. We discussed it, and she said her sister does the same thing. She’s aware of it, but says it’s so ingrained she can’t help it. I understand that, but I’m trying my best to change the ‘ please everyone’ tradition of the women in my family. I watched my Mom do this with my father my whole childhood. He treated her like shit, so she tried harder to be more likeable. Eventually she would blow up after being chain jerked so many times and he would respond by calling her crazy, so she would try even harder to be less crazy and more likeable. He was the crazy one, abusive and crazy. This was my model, and I fell right into her shoes. Unlearning this ingrained behavior in myself is a daily endeavor. It’s hard work, but I’m so thankful that I have the awareness to see the insanity in this behavior and have the opportunity to change it in my own life.
I’ve been catching myself fantasizing about “what if” I hadn’t stood up for myself and expressed my needs. Am I too needy? Did I expect too much? Am I the problem? Initially, it felt so good and empowering to express my expectations. I did it calmly and confidently, but the aftermath has left me puzzling. Maybe I shouldn’t have conducted a preemptive strike as it were. Maybe I should have just waited and seen if things progressed or deteriorated. Er…no.
I feel slightly schizophrenic. I’m not sure if anyone else has had this experience of following an ingrained way of thinking (this is all my fault, what should have I done differently, I’m too demanding, etc), and then be flooded with all the NEW information you’ve been trying to believe (this isn’t all about me, I wasn’t happy feeling ignored, it’s okay that I was honest about my feelings).
I’m less fearful than I once was, and my counselor has told me that she’s impressed by my newfound confidence. It feels SO good to be honest and communicate who I am and what I want. I don’t have to pretend or go along with things that make me feel uncomfortable or disrespected. But simultaneously I have this nagging feeling that I expect too much and I’m unreasonable. I feel as though I’ve come so far from the guilt and delusion that I operated under for much of this past year, but I have such a long way to go until I feel like I’m seeing myself and the situation objectively.
laurie-
i understand. at least i think i do.
i think this is the thing: we need to accept that we might get rejected a lot for being ourselves – actually, we WILL get rejected – and we just have to accept that that’s part of the territory of life, friendships, dating, etc. that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be who we are: we definitely will not get what we want if we behave inauthentically; and, and i can personally attest that this is true, its much better to be rejected for who you are then who you were pretending to be. talk about schizophrenic…
i do understand the feeling of confusion and disorientation you get when you finally stand up for yourself. you’re hoping that everything will feel clear and secure – and it doesn’t. you know why? because you’re working without a net, at least it feels that way. in this case, its actually good.
i ask myself, what if i hadn’t “complained” at the ex-EUM? what if i had handled things a little differently? would the outcome have been any different?
answer: no. and why? because there was NOTHING i could have done to get him to be who i needed him to be, to end up with what i wanted and needed from the situation. if i had handled things differently, the relationship would just have been shorter and less painful, or it would not have happened at all. but it wouldn’t have done what i wanted it to do: work out happily.
bottom line: we didn’t get what we wanted. and we cannot shield ourselves from pain, we can only choose how much and what type of pain we’re willing to incur. and when we switch from using ANY kind of tool to get what we want/need other than pure authenticity to really being ourselves, that’s a hard lesson to learn. passive-aggression, manipulation, codependency, doormatting (neologism), and other forms of over-compromise DO work temporarily and give us the illusion of getting what we want – but not for long. and in any given situation, when we start purely being ourselves, we suddenly must face the fact that we may “lose”, “get rejected”, have it “not work out”. O.O!!
but y’know what? that’s how its supposed to be. we’re not supposed to win that person – they’re not for us. we’re not for them. but we are for ourselves!
stick with it laurie. don’t give up. and it will start to feel more normal. yes, you will get rejected (but you will also reject) and some things will not work out (because those particular things should NOT work out, you wouldn’t have really been happy, anyway). but you will be living authentically and have a real chance for REAL happiness.
(hey cc- take your own advice!)
Thanks CC. I think I’m just frustrated with myself that I’m still struggling with this. There’s a part of me that worries that he WAS available and I turned him unavailable by being too “pushy” or “demanding”. Then I have to remind myself of the topline data: he was angry and allergic to the truth. And I did absolutely NOTHING to cause that. It’s like I want to zero in on one particular thing instead of seeing the bigger picture. For some reason my natural tendency is to believe that he must have been an amazing guy and I effed up the whole thing. So the crazy dual voices in my head continues! I do have hope, though.
laurie-
as i’ve bored BR with in the past few weeks, you are NOT the only one. i almost named the voices in my head and started charging them rent. all they did was argue, drove me N.V.T.S. nuts.
but, i realize….the argument hasdied down. a LOT. mostly as i realized the topline data. its quieter in my head, less viciously accusatory, more understanding, compassionate. i reflex to comfort rather than to recrimination.
hang in there, honey. this stage is not forever, even though it really, really feels like it is. promise.
Thanks CC. More and more the positive voices are drowning out the negative ones. I’ve also found some silly ways to reinforce those positive voices with (of all things) pop songs and movies. I have “We are Never Getting Back Together” “Wide Awake” and pretty much every single Kelly Clarkson song on constant rotation in my car. I typically hate pop music, but the reinforcement has actually helped 🙂
Fantastic observation! This connection is brilliant.
It brought back painful memories with my Mum who was soooo accommodating that it physically hurt. She just didn’t do a single, simple decision. “Shall I take a hat? What do you think?” “Shall I take this bag or that bag?” “Now, give your Mum some advice.” Comedy! Sometimes I could have begged her on my knees ‘Please, tell me what you want. Is it coffee or tea? Just ONE time.’ only to get “I don’t know. You decide. I like both.” AAAAARGGGHHH! By taking lots of decisions FOR HER it put me in faux driver seat, while she pretended to be a passenger. I grew impatient and I harboured some aggressive thoughts against her which fuelled a bad conscience as she seemingly did so many things for me, never raised her voice and was soooooo nice. You may imagine how I felt when she began a sentence with “PERHAPS YOU SHOULD have made tea. Now my heart is racing.” In innocently tones of course, but I got the message I had screwed up – even as adults we were deep into this choreography.
Now I realise that I don’t like being around people who pretend to have no opinion, no preferences, no suggestions.
arlena-
wow. your mom is my mom. or who she used to be.
what do you want for dinner? oh, whatever you like. go out or stay in? oh, i don’t know, what would you like to do? mom, i really can’t stand it when you do that. oh, well, then, maybe we shouldn’t talk at all.
ok, its a deal!
Take the mick is a derrogatory term the English use to insult the Irish and play up to
Stereotypes that the Irish are stupid. I’m sure NML is unaware and meant no
Offense. There is. It much acknowledgement of anti Irish racism in discussion of racism in England so there is a bid lack of awareness. Please do not pick up this term CC
I have to say that I laughed in shock – I was raised in Ireland from when I was a child and lived there until I was 23 with the bulk of my friends still being from there. That’s where I learned the phrase – from Irish people. I certainly did not mean any offence *whatsoever*. Noted, move it along.
yipe! (bolts)
i liked esp the (
Any relationship worth having is mutual and has
the capacity for mutual respectful honesty. If you
won’t be honest in your relationships because
you think it will ‘keep’ them and will even
encourage them to do what you want, they not
only cannot trust you to give honest feedback,
but they don’t know who you really are. Or…they
don’t until you start trying to ‘claim back’ for what
you think you’re ‘owed’)
you can not know a person clearly his likes and dislikes except by mentioning them. another thing if you were your true self that encourages intimacy. third point is that when you silence to misrespect that means you agree or at least it is okay with you which opens the way for more misrespect or any other wrong behaviour. fourth this happens to do with people pleaser and dependency in relationships which stems from low self-confidence. address the matter from the beginning, state your standards(he would like to know clearly from the begining how to please you, and he would respect that…) do not be passive and have a dependent character, believe in destiny what is meant to be is meant to be, have confidence in yourself, and if he is not good it is better to let go of the relationship might be then losing your time, energy, and it is painful in the end. Address matters from the beginning.
Perfect blog for me! Last night a good friend (more than 30 years we know each other) texted me that he needed to get laid, and how about me. I was completely taken aback by his disrespect and told him so in text since I was leaving for an appointment and didn’t want to become embroiled in conversation and reamed him. His reply? “I knew you’d say that.” First, he’s married and filing for divorce (he says) at the end of the year when the last kid is out of high school. More than that, we have a close friendship, can talk about anything, and saying yes would have put me into the other woman/slut category. Thus I told him no, I don’t cross that line since he’s married, and then I said something mean for which I apologized in text later. I am disappointed to see this side of him towards me.
Wow, Sue. ‘The Agenda’ rears its ugly head in the most appalling ways.
Who do these men think they are, exactly? And aren’t they ever ashamed of their behaviour?
I SO wish we could have a naming-and-shaming website. Whenever a woman meets and man and wants to know his previous ‘form’ or ‘record’, or if a wife/gf wants to know if her man is getting up to no good, she can log in and find out what other women have noted about him. They can read how he picks women up in certain bars, or how he’s a serial cheater, or how he lies and uses and discards women — all the horrible things he has done, noted down to share with all future victims. That would be the only way we could put an end to all this shock and misery.
Yes, yes I know all about privacy laws, and how vengeful women could lie in their comments, blah blah blah — problematic. But there has to be SOMETHING we can do. Maybe just go by their first names, maybe ages, maybe job/profession, and very general locations? There has to be enough information on there to make a girl recognise this could be a description of her new guy. Perhaps it could just be a database built up by face-to-face meetings, and the database isn’t publicly available, but women can ask for generic summaries about individual men based on his reported ‘record’.
The main modus operandi of these guys is secrecy — it is the best tool in the box. He is in total control of all historical information about himself, his reputation, and how he operates, so new women have absolutely no way of knowing what complete and utter hell they’re getting into, what he’s been up to behind her back, or how many others he has damaged. And he gets his hands on fresh meat again and again and again, genuinely ruining so many more lives.
Back when people lived in much smaller communities, guys like this were stopped in their tracks because everyone knew a lot more about everyone else’s business. A friendly couple of neighbours might take a starry-eyed woman aside and say ‘he’s no good — he did this to this girl, that to that girl, and you need to know this before you even consider being with him.’ Today, we have no such information… and it’s all to the benefit of these assclowns, cheaters and users. We are all on our own, at a complete and utter disadvantage, and the guys are lovin it.
*gets down off soapbox*
Grizelda
I think we often do know. We may outright know that he’s married for instance or we may just have a feeling he’s dodgy. But we ignore it. If we ignore ourselves it’s a leap to think we would listen to other people.
Or sometimes we are just not experienced enough to get it. Where we may miss a redflag is with the future fakers, or the ones who are very keen in the beginning. They believe their own fantasy so they can be quite convincing. However a mature person, which doesn’t have that much to do with their age, knows that hormones, lust, novelty and excitement are not sound judges of character or relationship potential. That takes time snd care. So save the big declarations and plans until you are sure. Slow him down if you have to. Get to know each other, good and “bad”. I think my boyfriend would gladly see me if every day if he could but i prefer to keep it at two or three times a week for now. We both need time for reflection. It’s serious stuff building love, don’t be chucking yourself into it headlong.
And, to be fair, if my previous love life was plastered all over the Internet I’d be undateable.
i’d still date you, grace.
Cc
Aw thanks lol.. I’ve been sharing bits of my past to the boyfriend. He’s been talking about the possibility of marriage so I guessed it was time. He’s not done a runner.
We’ve been sharing more of our “flaws” and it’s rounding out the relationship. You can’t get to know someone when you’re only putting forward “nice”
However, I think it’s possible to say too much. He’s not my therapist and it IS in the past.
grace-
yyyyaaaaay!!!! talk of the possibility of marriage!!
y’know, we all expect invitations … ok, just kidding. we’ll settle for an announcement. 😉
I agree with Grace: we often do know and we don’t listen to ourselves so why would we listen to anyone else. There are plenty of OWs out there (and even in here) – they know their MM is a cheater by very dint of the fact he is married already – and self same OWs are shocked to discover (for themselves) that he’s not to be trusted (yes, really!)
It doesn’t matter what you know when you are determined to be the exception! Our egos in that respect are way bigger than the “gossip merchants” and “sour grape exes” who are just “jealous” cos he’s not going out with them or dumped them! The problem isn’t him – it’s his all his exes! Pft.
Waving wildly over here. Yes, I was one of those former OW’s who made him promise he wouldn’t lie to me and then believed him. I knew he had to be lying to his wife. And then I was totally shocked when I read Natalie’s post about there’s no such thing as an honest cheat and not to be trusted. Nope, it doesn’t matter what you know unless you are willing to listen. I’m all ears now…all BR ears.
I do agree with you Grace!
I think I’m just in enormous frustration, sitting here reading BR and descriptions of all the different kinds of hurt and pain and damage that we and so many other hundreds of millions of women experience as a result of these guys, their mental problems and psychopathic tendencies, and their operational patterns which allow them to thrive at the expense of everyone else. I feel like a solution needs to be sought.
Example, employers have all sorts of tools to check and re-check employees’ records — their credit ratings, their references, their criminal records, their financial and tax positions — they even get medical tests and drug tests. Employers aren’t just fobbed off with ‘well, you just have to take the applicants’ words for it, you can’t go looking into records or anything, that’s invasion of privacy — buyer beware, and if you hire a lying cheating thief who does a lot of damage and sinks your business ship, then you only have yourselves to blame, chalk it up to experience, eh’. And that’s just for someone doing a job 8 hours a day.
What do we get to protect ourselves, our lives, our physical and menal wellbeing? Nothing. Absolutely nothing but our own wit.
I dunno, Grizelda, for every woman that would pay attention there’d be another that would call him ‘misunderstood’ and be determined to be the saving grace, the shining beacon, the wonderful saviour of his life, etc etc.
People (and websites) can talk til they’re blue in the face, you only realise when you’re ready to realise.
I live in a small community, and I still see various people with awful reps and terribly long histories getting together with and messing around girl after girl, despite all the people who are saying “ooo, he’s bad news” (quite often their ex-girlfriends!). It doesn’t stop any of them and in return they get a few months feeling smug because they’re ‘the One’ and then longer than that being messed about and feeling humiliated..
So I don’t think it’d work – the best defence is knowing your own mind about what is and isn’t acceptable. If everyone did that there’d be less of a problem, I think.
Right. I’ve gotten into a real kick of watching documentaries about serial killers and conmen on youtube. (Wonder why. not.)
Anyhow, many murderers *attract* women. Penpals, then love, often marriage. The women *compete* over them.
The Night Stalker, admittedly amazing bone structure, had a harem at his trial, and has married. He’s on death row.
So what is a guy who’s lied a bit and misrepresented his intentions and overlapped girlfriends a bit. Oh, yeah, a challenge.
Spot on Ixnay. I’ve said it many times – even serial killers have been known to have ‘good points’ but it doesn’t make ’em relationship material. And let’s be real those good points are likely to be grossly exaggerated or faked.
Sue, I hate to point this out, but:
– He’s married
– He SAYS he’s filing for divorce… who’s he said this to? You? His wife? The children?
– He’s a ‘close friend and you can talk about anything’.
I don’t think I’d want any future husband of mine to be able to talk to another woman about everything. Very least of all his relationship with me and whether or not we were getting divorced. Doesn’t that strike you as a bit shady and a bit of a betrayal in the first place?
And are you REALLY avoiding the role of the OW? One of the biggest nastiest shocks that I got when I starting reading BR was that people don’t necessarily just use you for sex, they can use you just as well for sympathy, an ego-boost and a shoulder to cry on without being any more concerned about your welfare.
Sorry, reading that back it sounds very harsh and dictatorial! Also, of course, I don’t know the whole situation.
Still, in my experience, when men who are married/in relationships have started talking to me about said relationships it’s never ended well. I’ve never been an OW either, but the best-case scenario is, ime, a big old mess.
sue-
my heart goes out to you on this one. i had a dear friend, whom i’ve known since i was 3, pull that on me. it crushed me to have one of my heroes tumble off his pedestal. i just couldn’t believe what a tool he was being, to me, to ME, one of his best friends!!
part of it is the curse of the recently-separated man, particularly, i find, if he was faithful in the marriage. its like they go nuts – freedom! carte blanche to operate as a p*ssy-seeking missile! fueled by the flip side of past saintliness! ready? go!
these guys are walking bio hazard. its as if all their formerly-restrained guy instincts burst out of them. grizelda has a point, they should be forced to wear a danger sign, a scarlet P (yes, for penis) to warn off the unsuspecting.
i hope he apologizes correctly. and good for you for not falling for it. if he grows up, gets over his marriage, and really wants something with you, he can come to you hat in hand like anybody else. don’t lower the drawbridge just because he’s him. …tool…
Honestly don’t feel bad for being mean, he didn’t feel bad for insulting you, until you were mean. What. An. Ass!!!
Sue, I agree with all the responses to your comment. Yikes, you call this guy a “good friend”? Sorry but what do your enemies text? Yeah, they are always filing for divorce when the last kid is out of high school. That was precisely the exMM’s line for two years. I think his kid is in her second year of college now and he still hasn’t left. Last I heard, he was waiting until she graduated college! I’d cut contact with this married man ASAP. He just straight up told you he wants to get laid and he is married. That is a friend? Or a booty call? Where is your line? Are you the only woman that received his request to get laid? It was disappointing to see that side of him too. I preferred to see the best friend stuff over the dodgy stuff too. It is disappointing to actually see the dodgy stuff. But it really important to see it and act appropriately. For me, this guy would be blocked. He needs to get laid. He will. Poor wife and kids, poor woman who beds him. Poor him.
Don’t make it poor you.
Grizelda. I Would LOVE to be able to warn future (and current) victims of the exMM about his dispicable behaviour! He is a particularly slimy one, evoking pity and the Florence response even from women who are “smart” in most areas of their lives. I myself was guilty of being so, so nice to him with the goal of “winning” the prize of his heart. He sucked the life right out of me and injected his poison into me instead. Like cc, I feel I now have to vomit up the toxins, to squeeze the poisonous pus that the relationzit built up in my heart and soul. Preventing other women from being bitten by this slippery snake would be gratifying indeed!
aw, learner-
sorry, baby. (soothes you) if it helps, since i admitted that i was still in the poison ejection phase, and with the help of friends and BR, i am feeling better. its still coming out, but at least it is coming out. (pets you)
wanna hear the latest nauseating thing i came up with? it really is quite vomititious (neologism), but i think it might be true….
…have sick bags at the ready…
(can’t believe i’m going to post this…*ahem* *squares her shoulders*)
…don’t say i didn’t warn you…
a woman is born infinite. if she is fed (by herself or others) with love and care and respect, she remains infinite and loves infinitely in return. if she is fed with selfishness, limitations, use, abuse, disrespect, disregard, or scorn, she becomes finite and runs out VERY quickly. she must then refill herself. every time she needs a refill, her max fill line gets lower unless she does a lot of gentle work with herself to maintain it or raise it higher.
this is probably true of everyone, not just women. but i think the female gender has born-in characteristics that make it particularly true for us.
so be careful what you eat and what you allow yourself to be fed. be very, very careful.
Wow, I’m awe-struck here from this post and all the stories from you wonderful ladies out there.
Is anybody in the “anger phase” of a break up at the moment???
Im not angry at him, I should be but I’ve analysed and disected his behaviour to a micro “T” and what’s done is done and I’m focusing on me. I’m absolutely infuriated at what I did to myself, I’m discovering the things about the relationship that I contributed to and this post being a huge part of it. I would either ignore the comments/behaviour with a smile or stand up for myself “verbally” to a degree but never acted on it.
I know this is part of the process of realising your contribution to the demise of the relationship and I’m so dissapointed at how I let myself down.
Everything that I didn’t act on/stand my ground on/or things I let slide built up in me until it erupted one day, as Nat said in a previous post “your enough moment” and I didn’t do it gracefully either.
I was so shocked at how I completely unraveled in this massive outburst (I can’t stress that enough) outburst is an understatement. Everything I held back came out and it was me who let that happen, I have accepted it happened as there is no way of changing the past, I’m just mortified and embarrassed that he got to see me explode.
BR is still quite new to me and it gives me hope that I’m not alone with all you beautiful amazing souls sharing your experiences.
I’m sorry for rambling, today has been quite a negatory day!
g-money-
if i may…and take it from a person who has lost control – your ‘unraveled’ is the perfect word – and felt horribly shamefaced about it afterward…
so what he got to see you explode!?! i’m really tired of women being pointed out for anger, mostly by men. so, you exploded. so what. if he were such a great guy, the guy for you, he would have said, “honey, i’m so sorry – i didn’t mean to upset you. let’s fix it together. oh, and please, stop yelling.”
let me be clear: i do not advocate building up a little internal volcano of amassed hurts that erupts periodically – just the opposite. and i truly abhor today’s depiction of selfish, explosive anger in women (all those reality shows featuring girl-on-girl violence, i mean, really, what the hell is that).
but everybody gets angry. even you. even him. and i don’t trust people who say they don’t do anger.
when i first found my “voice”, it was like i was always shouting. then i found my volume knob, and learned how to use it, to calibrate situations. am i great at this? not yet, but at least i try. but i wouldn’t have given myself permission to figure this out at all, to speak, if i hadn’t first exploded like vesuvius.
thank god you exploded. ok, it would have been great to handle it differently, but STOP feeling ashamed about it. now you can find your voice and your volume controls. don’t hold anything in, just practice on acceptable methods of getting it out.
further….
i get it that your outburst was probably rather bad, worse than i’m depicting, worse than you’re letting on. but if you didn’t actually burn his house/car down, get him fired, or murder/maim one of his children, then the hell with it. go you.
don’t be afraid of your own power. just learn to wield it correctly.
G-money your shame over your behavior is exactly what I referred to in my post. But,in my eruption it was actually only one sentence with one foul word but I spewed it with such venomous outrage that I shocked both of us. This was followed by his leaving my place immediately (we were saying a goodbye, anyway but with plans to continue our affair) without another word. This happens when we have taken so much of their crap for such a prolonged period that it builds up and finally spews forth like a volcano. I believe this can happy with ANY Decent Woman and we shouldn’t beat ourselves up about it because if you have any sense of your own integrity and what you will allow, you will reach your “enough moment”, which will be overly dramatic because it’s be suppressed for so long. I think it may have been Grizelda who pointed out how it is so important to begin to establish your boundaries right from the beginning in an offhand way. Of course, in a relationshit in which you are clearly in a compromised situation, i.e with an MM, boundaries go out the window. You wouldn’t be involved if you were mindful of your boundaries. But, I think men “get it” and can size you up very quickly. The decent guys will treat you right, or at least well enough not to violate your principles and sense of acceptable behavior, so they don’t push you past your limits and cause you to humiliate yourself, whereas the AC/EUM’s will barricade through your “electrc fence” very quickly and with utter disregard for how you may feel about you or them.
In the case of a platonic friendship, I’ve always though that on his part there’s no such thing, and that a man will always imagine getting you into bed when there’s been absolutely no indication on your part that that can happen. Why? It’s just the nature of the beast. They’re not thinking far enough ahead of ruining a great friendship. Just my humble opinion .
TO cc and tinkerbell, thank you so much for your insight my brain is seriously fried today.
@cc – I really like the volume control description and its very true what you said
” i wouldn’t have given myself permission to figure this out at all, to speak, if i hadn’t first exploded like vesuvius”
Even though I would give out and yell sometimes, I didn’t follow through on what I was upset/hurt/angry about which were damn sure “opt out moments” my eruption was a very real big wake up call, anger I just didn’t tap into properly to figure out what was really going on. To which now I will learn to find my voice.
Ha, no, no maiming or murders, It was a bad outburst, in public no doubt and as Tinkerbell mentioned in her post it was brought on by something harmless compared to his other BS. Luckily where we were there was no-one around but it was still out in the open and it just spoke volumes (no pun intended) that I was so consumed, all rationale was out the window.
@Tinkerbell – I definitely did not establish bounderies (thought I had them – I didn’t know the full meaning though until I found BR) and it just all built up. I can relate to the shock of your venomous outrage as it felt like exactly that. I was three years in this relationsit (love that) I’ve been a couple of weeks reading posts here and I got Mr Unavailable and the fallback girl aswell, its like from the get go it was doomed to fail even though it lasted quite a bit.
The sifting through all that happened right up until the end with completely different eyes is scary of what I considered normal or acceptable. (jeez so many excuses)
I suppose if things didn’t happen the way they did, I may never have found all of you and still be living in limbo not knowing which way was up.
Thank you both so much for your kind honest words and encouragement, I truly appreciate the support. I’m hopeful tomorrow will be more on the up than today – even though it is Monday 🙂 xXxXx
Tinkerbell I share your opinion about the platonic friendships only it took me many years to find that out – I seem to be terribly naive.
Your comment made me remember one time years ago when I had gone out with my two “wonderful” platonic male friends. To me, there were no better friends, I trusted them completely and the three of us could talk about anything and we always had so much fun together.
Ahem.
Anyway.
On this particular occasion we went to one of these guys´appartment after a party and these morons started to hint at doing a 3some. I just laughed and thought they had too much to drink and went to the bathroom because my contact lenses were bothering me. From there, I heard them tell each other “now look what you´ve done, you made her go away, why didn´t you ask her more carefully?” and the other one “no YOU didn´t do it right, now she went home, you freaked her out!”.
So they had been seriously considering this!
Luckily they were too nerdy to insist and I went home soon afterwards but from then on things just changed… and now my male friends are all gay.
In my “relationship” I am not supposed to have feelings and if I do, I sure as hell am not supposed to express them. Because of this my spirit feels limp and I am never acting true to myself. The AC would be more than happy for me to live unauthentically in this situation acting happy ALL the time (which he has said). As a result I often keep my feelings to myself and allow things to happen to me and do things for others that I do not feel comfortable with. And I am still chastised for not smiling enough.
G-money – I am actually envious of your authentic outburst. While you might not feel proud of how you handled things 100% or of the words you chose to use – I actually find it more shameful that I tip-toe, walk on eggshells and find “nice” words to say how I feel to someone who is completely disrespecting me and my boundaries. In fact I politely expressed my feelings last night and got “fuck off” in response. He then proceeded to tell me he refuses to play games. In this case, playing the game would have simply meant listening to how I felt and respecting those feelings. Not a game at all. This is a person who absolutely doesn’t deserve a single nice word and yet I still act with caution (no matter how uncomfortable that makes me) just so he can’t turn around and tell me I am the one who is mean, hurtful and out of line – just for stating how I feel.
@Tinkerbell – it’s about time I turn my electric fence on!
Lillian,
Do you live with this person? Why ever would you spend another second with someone who tells you to eff off, for anything?
I haven’t been told to eff off by anyone, or told anyone to eff off, using actual abusive language, in years … I can’t remember the last time. However I *felt* like telling someone to go eff themselves rather recently, but I let my actions speak for me and
kept my dignity.
(Though sometimes I will say “that’s effing bullshit” or “that’s effing awesome”.)
What I’m saying is: no one ever needs to normalize aggressive, abusive language in their life. Even when someone makes a person very angry, there are appropriate ways to express that and you need never, ever to be exposed to that by anyone who you consider close.
But the language issue just marks a measurable line in the “invisibility” of what sounds like a terrible tone of disrespect from this man.
What makes you stay with this chump? Have I missed an earlier part of this story? It sounds like you are really in an emotionally abusive situation and may need help if you don’t see why you need to walk asap.
Magnolia – I agree with you 100%. This is the argument that cycles over and over. I say how I feel (politely), he doesn’t like that I say how I feel and lashes out inappropriately and in a very mean manner. I then say that I don’t appreciate the way he talks to me. He then says he doesn’t like how I was attacking him (translated as please don’t ever tell me I have done something wrong because I cannot own up to anything I do and will cut you down if you still chose to do so). So basically if he tells me he will call me and doesn’t for two days straight – I then confront the situation saying how hurtful that is – I get an “eff off” I shouldn’t be attacking him.
To me it feels like a toddler who goes up to his schoolmate on the playground and punches him in the face. The kid who gets punched starts crying and says “ouch, that hurts!” Then the offender tells the other kid to quit crying and to stop yelling at him.
I certainly leave ALL conversations with my head spinning wondering where I went wrong.
Just had to add as I sit here and think…that I totally take responsibility that I keep playing with the kid who punches me on the school yard. I get that. But it doesn’t mean the punches don’t hurt.
“To me it feels like a toddler who goes up to his schoolmate on the playground and punches him in the face. The kid who gets punched starts crying and says “ouch, that hurts!”
Hi Lilian, its a really familiar (unfortunately) dynamic you’re experiencing- have you read Natalie’s article on choppers?
The thought that came to me on reading your post was a line in a fantastic book called Me Who Hate Women about emotional abuse- the title sounds a bit extreme, but it’s excellent (I would really recommend).
She explains it as- the woman is not allowed to say ‘ouch’. If she does, this is experienced as an attack- whether it is ‘truly’, or whether it is all a big act so as to shift the blame away from him and onto her makes no difference in the end- just exactly as you described.
This means he never, ever gets to take responsibility for causing hurt or pain, or for those times when he has been totally out of order- he just gets to say ‘oh that hurts, and *I* must not hurt’. Essentially you are also being told that its OK for HIM to have feelings- but you must not, unless they chime in with what he wants to hear.
But what about you- you are being hurt; as you say, it actually feels like being punched in the face, which is terribly wrong. Just cos its words, doesn’t make much difference the feeling, the pain, is terrible.
Where you went wrong…? What about where he went wrong? Sure, you’re not perfect and we all struggle to get out points across clealry. But is he doing the same, is he listening and trying to communicate- it doesn’t sound like it. We end up doubting ourselves (where did I go wrong?) instead of seeing that the way HE is behaving is absolutely not cool, totally unacceptable. I hope this doesn’t come across as harsh but I suffered in a similar situation for so long and it makes me really sad to remember how utterly hopeless I and other women in my shoes felt. Sending you hugs.
“This means he never, ever gets to take responsibility for causing hurt or pain, or for those times when he has been totally out of order- he just gets to say ‘oh that hurts, and *I* must not hurt’. Essentially you are also being told that its OK for HIM to have feelings- but you must not, unless they chime in with what he wants to hear.”
aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggg gggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrr
this is my ex to a T, and WOW he is a frigging con artist extraordinaire. He just visited recently and we got on okay, but he has such a way with words and he was actually SAYING something about wanting a life partner who didn’t believe he could actually hurt her, which somehow sounded like it made sense at the time but I was like, “what the wha???” later.
The “hates women” makes so much sense. I was talking about him just a couple of days ago because my mind was still trying to make sense of it and when I felt into it intuitively, there was a big toxic gooey nasty ball of hate between us. I just turned my back on it and walked away and left it in the garden I was walking in…not mine to deal with, not my issue.
Oh…and so much more is making sense in other ways but I won’t get into it suffice it to say THANK you for this!
Our last conversation last week, he overrode my boundaries and I somehow let myself get sucked in to hearing about how is current romantic interest is showing the same pattern, she feels like he “broke” her and feel traumatized and he doesn’t believe that she really believes that.
Part of me wants to call her and validate her, the rest of me knows she’s in a household with supportive, intelligent people and will be ok.
I just changed his name in my phone to “turn away, let it go”.
@ Sunshine
Yeah, if she has friends around her, she will hopefully be OK. A couple of my friends have said ‘don’t you want to get in touch with the new woman and warn her?’ (obviously my ex moved on very quickly and found a new victim, I’m sorry- for her- to report). But it’s really not our job to do that! It’s our job to focus on ourselves, ask if this feels good, if it feels right and to distance ourselves from people who make our heads spin and our hearts ache.
I know exactly what you mean about the gooey hate-ball. At some point I just started to think ‘hang on, there is just NO GOOD WILL here’- it was as simple as that. This person is behaving as if they dislike, no actually hate you- what the hell?! Oh and the words are almost not even worth listening to- its part of the game to twist them around until your head hurts, but the feeling is usually the real thing to listen out for, in my experience.
I think the new name is very fitting btw- turn away, no going back, no looking back for him and preferably, no contact.
So Lillian, are you interested in getting away from the hurt? Interested in getting away from the confusion?
Are you looking for help to leave?
Or are you still trying to get him to understand that you have feelings?
You won’t get clarity while you are involved with him. I don’t see any indication from you that you feel you need to walk away, which concerns me.
How can we help?
Magnolia – I do want to get away from the hurt and get to a place where I believe that I deserve better. I also very much want to get to a point where I can walk away and not worry about whether he cares, is sad, or recognizes the enormous amount of pain I have endured. I am here, reading BR, go to therapy and am part of a women’s group. I am putting the effort in to work on myself and understand the pattern of behaviors I habitually get myself into (and don’t exit).
Unfortunately I do still try to talk this ‘thing’ to success explaining myself ad nauseam.
The good news (I suppose) is since expressing my hurt over him not calling when he said he would he has cut me off and is not speaking to me. This has been my life for 1.5 years. My emotions and body are in a constant state of fear and anxiety because I never know what to expect each day.
Why am I still shocked that someone can be so cruel and hurtful to me (when in fact it probably has nothing to do with me at all)?
Lillian,
I can certainly emphasize with the mind fog you’ve been dealing with. Somehow we imagine that if someone talks to us in a disrespectful, degrading manner we must have done something to deserve it. We’re on dangerous ground here, because that’s the same mentality of women who stay in abusive situations. It’s not okay.
When my ex was angry with me, he would scream in my face “f*ck you”. Initially I tried to justify it and rationalize it since (as he said) “that was how I was raised.” But there’s no excuse. I don’t talk to people like that, including and especially people I profess to love. It’s disgusting and abusive language. And yes, I was also hit with “you’re playing mind games” when I tried to express my feelings or needs.
You deserve so much more, Lillian. Please do NOT go back to this creep or try to have any more conversations with him. You can’t make him empathize or understand “where you’re coming from.” Clearly he doesn’t give a rats and I doubt very seriously if he’s even capable of showing the tinniest bit of empathy. He sounds selfish, childish, and disrespectful. You are so much better than this.
cc
So glad to hear you are feeling better during your poison-ejecting phase. Friends and BR are life-savers, arent they? Thanks for your virtual soothing – I could almost feel your hand soothing the frown muscles in my forehead. Felt lovely.
and I love your “maybe-not-so-vomititious” analogy (and your recent neologisms, lots of fun!). It reminded me of the saying “you are what you eat” and the idea that junk food is not as satisfying on the long term as healthy food. I like your advice that we should be very careful what we “eat”, emotion-and relationship-wise. Hugs to you xo
Fearless: point taken re: the problem with MMs being the OWs who enable them and who think they may be the exception. I believed him (maybe 90%) when he insisted I could trust him while ignoring my tumultuous gut. So glad we are not
“that woman” any more!
I would love to respond to many other posters but my home internet is down and I am struggling to type and post on my tiny cell phone. Thank you to all who have responded to Natalie’s post- you are all providing much *healthy* food for
thought!
Still thinking about this article. I have had a friend as well who tried to be agreeable just to keep a friendship. Once, I asked her to do something with me, and she agreed….only to start complaining about it later. I feel like the only way to stop being a doormat or a control freak is to really look at who you really are as a person, flaws and all,and act accordingly. Unfortunately not all of us want to see our own flaws…
It’s just exhausting and disgusting how a man — a long term friend, or an attached colleague, or an acquaintence with whom a burgeoning friendship is happening, your friend’s husband, your teacher, your EU ex boyfriend, your boss for chrissakes — feels perfectly entitled to turn around whenever he fancies and tell you in so many ways “Ok enough small talk, I’m going to violate your trust now. I’ve been watching you a while, and you’ve been nice to me, which means you’re adopting a compliant and subordinate position to me. So that’s clearly a green light for me to sh*t all over your boundaries, whatever they might be, heh heh as if I cared. So brace yourself while I work my magic and shock-n-awe you with my irresistable offer to turn you into a whore.”
So. Is DIY castration against the will of the castrate-ee still illegal? Just checking.
Sorry I’m just suffering a slow burn from something appalling yesterday. A chance meeting with a guy in my corner of the world led to a long chat about consulting (we work in the same industries). (How nice of me!) He had good contacts, so when he asked for my business card I gave it to him. (Watch out, I’m being nice again!) Yesterday he got in touch and asked if I’d like to meet him for a cup of tea because he’d be back in my corner of the world. I accepted his invitation. (More niceness!) After half an hour of talking through various points of business and industry (nicey nicey!), he finally got onto the conversation he really wanted to have. Perhaps we should work on my upcoming business pitch together. He could coach me on my presentation at his or mine. His wife’s away on business a lot. He told his wife he met me by chance, and she’s fine that he’s meeting me for tea. In fact she’s pretty much fine about anything he ever does. Oh and he finds me ever so attractive. Oh and it’d be great if we were to get together…
The cheeky old fart. AS IF. I laughed in his face, drained my teacup, grabbed my coat, said ‘I gotta go’, and left him to pay the bill.
What I should have done was tossed the rest of my tea right in his face. That’s why it’s a slow burn for me today. He tried to sh*t all over me. Why? Because he’s a MAN. Apparently, it’s not only allowed, it’s expected.
Grizelda,
“Ok enough small talk, I’m going to violate your trust now. I’ve been watching you a while, and you’ve been nice to me, which means you’re adopting a compliant and subordinate position to me. So that’s clearly a green light for me to sh*t all over your boundaries, whatever they might be, heh heh as if I cared. So brace yourself while I work my magic and shock-n-awe you with my irresistable offer to turn you into a whore.”
How I wished I’d said this in my last email to the ex professor, thesis supervisor, MM. You summed it up perfectly. Way to go with the creepy tea guy.
Ah Grizelda that is so funny – well I know it isn’t really but it did make me laugh. I was recently pouring out my broken little heart to a male friend about my sadness about splitting with EUM. He was so sympathetic and supportive. Then, despite being married to one of the most beautiful women I have ever seen, he proceeded to offer me a FWB arrangement to “cheer me up” as his wife is currently depressed and “he isn’t getting any.” Like you, I laughed in his face. But then of course, being me, I felt GUILTY about laughing in his poor shocked little face.
victorious-
holy SHIT. he offered you FWB instead of caring for his poor depressed, yet still beautiful, wife? maybe she’s depressed because she’s married to a cheating tool who passes off his indiscretion as a COMFORT (gag) to ANOTHER WOMAN(explodes).
y’know, i was doing ok, all the way through grizelda’s hilarious post until i read this.
sentence: immediate castration. no appeal.
Victorious,
Now you SEE that is a perfect example. He wants to cheer you up by degrading you. I certainly hope he doesn’t work as a paramedic. He’d probably turn up at the scene of car accidents and run around giving all the victims an arse kicking for good measure, proclaiming that back at the hospital things have gotten really dull so this is him livening things up a bit.
grizelda-
first, you are hiLARious.
second- no, honey, you handled it PERFECTLY right. though i completely understand your residual anger. whattafuckintool! offers you a side arrangement that has been, according to him, pre-approved by his wife?!?. as IF is right.
a couple of christmas ago, this guy started sharing office space with my firm. he was a dear old friend of one of the firm’s partners. turns out he also lives ON MY BLOCK, with his unsuspecting wife and his SPAWN, so basically i was bumping into this guy every day of the week.
at first i was friendly to him because he seemed so socially awkward. yes, i was nice, and you know exactly where this is going. at that christmas party, 2 whole seats away from said partner, he whispered in my ear that a friend of his was playing in a band at a local bar in our neighborhood, and that i should come, and that he was on his own that night and didn’t have to be anywhere until the next morning when he had to get on a plane, which he planned to board drunk.
i felt so utterly cornered, so defiled, so disrespected, and so victimized that he was doing this in a plausibly deniable way (never actually asked me to have sex with him, so it would have been my word against his if it came up in front of the partner, who would then have to choose between his friend and his employee) that i swear i had a PTSD episode. i gave my boss (across the table) the meaningful “we need to go outside and smoke a cigarette now” look. we went outside and i FREAKED. thank god she was understanding, because i swear, he hit a tender spot, sent me into the stratosphere, and it took me literally MONTHS to get over it. to the point at which i unexpectedly found him standing next to me in my neighborhood on a sunday and literally walked into oncoming traffic on columbus avenue to get away from him – you shoulda seen his face – that action said more about how horrified i was than any words could have. oh, and btw, i haven’t spoken a word to him since.
but you have no idea how hard it has been to not stroll down my block, knock on his door, and tell his wife about her husband. i mean, what a STUPID tool he is. absolute moron.
so, yeah, griz. totally get it. totally get it.
griz-
further, and so you know you’re not the only one truly beside yourself with righteous indignation, since i wrote the above just this morning, i haven’t been able to stop reeling from the memory – i think i retraumatized myself. oh, and by the way, he just walked by my office.
so, in an effort to be helpful to you, and to impart something i JUST this second figured out, let’s review all the facets of his insult to me. he seemed to think that:
– the mere proximity (at home and at work) of a single woman sufficed for his approach of her
– his lame-ass, thinly veiled, practically unstated (and therefore deniable: EVIL!) offer of nothing more than meaningless sex was enough for me to drop trou
– i was so “ready and willing” as to accept an offer so beneath me
– i was so morally compromised as to not only comply and not object but also have not the slightest inclination to march down the block and tell his wife
– i would put myself in a position to have my reputation justifiably besmirched IN THE WORKPLACE … TO A PARTNER (translation: that i am so dumb as to shit where i eat)
– i wouldn’t be disgusted by his spineless treachery
– i wouldn’t be disgusted by his spineless treachery when i am an audience captive to watching him stroll down my block with his wife and his SPAWN (that he successfully duplicated himself is just the fucking cherry on the sundae)
so, as you righty pointed out, he basically called me a dumb whore. but here’s the THING:
i was SOOOO VERY traumatized by all of this because…drum roll…i was making it about me (and i felt totally victimized, trapped but that’s another post). sure, i can be insulted, its flat out beyond insulting. but i didn’t really need to wig out over it because it speaks only to his character, and his view of other people (read: women) and not really, at all, about ME per se.
yes, it is crushingly disappointing that when men act in this disgusting fashion they are only offering further proof that the human race is a failed experiment. but still – it isn’t about US. its about THEM.
hugs, honey
CC,
You’re exactly right that this had nothing to do with you. Men like this feel that they have nothing to lose–he puts it out there, and maybe you bite, if so, great! If not, well, he’ll just pretend that you misunderstood him and try again with some other woman.
I think the mindset of these guys is something along the lines of “nothing to lose, maybe one time in 100 it will work, so why not try?” It’s not that they pick up some “vibe” from the woman they try it on with, or make some negative assessment of her beforehand. We really need to learn not to make someone else’s disgusting behaviour about us (though of course you’re right to be disgusted by him).
A
Yep
My repulsive boss is well known for hitting on women when he has had too much to drink. In the most disgusting way. He’s careful not to do it when there’s anyone else in earshot. We all know it and that he’s a sleaze. The first time it happened to me I was shocked and appalled too but now I realise it’s nothing at all to do with me or anyone else. It’s the time of day principle. Yuck. As far as I know he’s never got lucky but who would ever admit to falling for it? His chat up lines are unrepeatably foul.
Okay I will repeat one. Said to a colleague
“my wife likes it up the a***, how about you?”.
How could she have resisted? Somehow, she managed.
That should be reported to personnel. He should lose his job. I’m serious.
It has been tried, without success. As I said, he does not do it whilst there are others in earshot so it’s your word against his. However he has not achieved the promotions that might have been expected.
a-
thanks. love.
“….which means you’re adopting a compliant and subordinate position to me. …my irresistable offer to turn you into a whore.” – still cackling away in slack-jawed admiration over this.
They’re like those little overbred dogs that come out of nowhere, clamp onto your ankle, and start humping away.
They are VILE. It is EMBARRASSING. It’s not like you’re going to go “oooh sweet widdle puppy, you just go right ahead and have a happy time all over my Uggs, then I’ll pick you up and cuddle you and take you home and you can romp all over my bed!”
No, what they need is kicking away. Hard, so they don’t forget it.
Oh I am so sorry I missed this all because now a new post is up; I can one up someone. Last year I had a really lame female “friend” who would use me and my ear for sympathy whenver her horrible husband would treat her badly. Then one day, while we were having cocktails at her house, he shows up downstairs in his underware and procedes to walk around in front of us. Then when he leaves and I am understandably freaked out, she confides in me that they have fought because he told her that, if she lost a few pounds and had a body more like mine, that he would stay home more often…and wait it gets worse, the confides in me that this makes her 1) jealous of me and 2) she feels uncomfortable being freinds with me. Then I pretty much dump her and her husband spends the next six months emailing me, trying to get me to feel sorry for her because she has so few freinds and to come over….just weird….so many weirdos out there ick!
Eeeew! lol
That´s why I still prefer cats over dogs, despite the EU-ness. 🙂
Oh CC I did not want to conjure up any bad memories for you or anyone.
I think it’s lack of control in a situation like that which leaves us burning with bad memories. I know I handled it alright in the end, but if I’m ever in that situation again, I will be prepared to be MUCH more direct, and perhaps you will too?
I’ll call this my flush-em-out response. If they’re trying to bully me, or embarrass me, or coerce me, I swear I will flush-em-out.
Flush-em-out Example A
“Um, I don’t understand what you’re saying here. You seem to be trying to persuade me to go to bed with you. Is that what you’re saying? Yes or no. No? You’re not? Oh you backed down. Good for you. Good. For. You. Because if that’s what you were trying to do, it would turn my stomach. Seriously. No, seriously it would. I mean, just look at you. I gotta go.”
Flush-em-out Example B
“Um, I don’t understand what you’re saying here. You seem to be trying to persuade me to go to bed with you. Is that what you’re saying? Yes or no. Yes? That’s what you’re saying? You’re saying you want to f*ck me, and all I’m hearing is that you want to sh*t all over me. That’s what I’m hearing. That’s my takeaway. I gotta go.”
Think strong, ladies. They sniff out weak defences.
grizelda-
nah, no sweat, it came up and i solved more of it. so yay!
LOVE your examples!
Grizelda, you are so right! Why do they think they have these rights over women?
I just wish I could laugh in someone´s face like that, I´m still too nicey-nice for that.
Some months ago I was at a girlfriend´s birthday party and we were talking about this club for 40-somethings where 60-somethings will come to you and plainly ask “do you want a shag?”.
We were laughing about it but then one guy (the only one besides me who was unattached in that group)told me “aha so you want me to ask you that question, right?”.
It made me feel so uncomfortable I didn´t know how to react. I must´ve stammered something like “er em no” but he kept on with it, in front of this whole group.
The thing I find most ridiculous is that he didn´t even realise he was being offensive, and the others (except for one girlfriend who is considered to be old fashioned) were perfectly comfortable with him and didn´t notice I was taken aback.
I still don´t know what would´ve been the best reaction to this. If I started laughing it would be interpreted like I was happy he asked, if I got angry they would´ve thought I´m bitter about men and “need some d*ck” to get over it (that is actually an expression they use a lot where I live).
A club for 40-somethings where 60-somethings turn up and ask you for a shag? Mm nice.
When I’m 60, I must give it a try. I might want a bit of 40 year old c*ck by then.
Loved this thread ladies. Sometimes it is just smiling, being cordial, giving them the time of day and then wham, it’s time for a shag. It used to be shocking whether it was a colleague or a stranger. I’d wonder what I did or said to evoke such disrespect. It wasn’t until I read Natalie’s stuff on “chancing their arms” that I realized it wasn’t about me at all. It probably didn’t matter whether I was nice or mean. The only thing that mattered really was that I was female, assuming they are inclined that way. Now what I’ll picture is how Grizelda described it: “They’re like those little overbred dogs that come out of nowhere, clamp onto your ankle, and start humping away”. For some, it doesn’t much matter what ankle. The ankle didn’t do anything. Still laughing!
When I reached my enough moment I didn’t explode. I sent the exMM an email where I mentioned feeling angry and hurt, but didn’t go into details. I requested some time and space to work through my grief, wished him well and (this bit is embarrassing and makes me cringe) said “you never know we may be destined to be friends”. “Destined” – hold my head in shame what was I thinking! Anyhow, I was still playing nice and looking back maybe I still had a secret agenda. Maybe I didn’t want to completely close the door so supressed much of my anger? 3 months later, I’m not sure if that was such a good thing. There are times when I wished I’d blasted him and on some days would still love the opportunity. Then again, maybe he already knows how hurt I am. I also think what prevents me is my own role in that disastrous soul destroying affair. I knew from the outset that he was married and should never have been there in the first place. I’m angry and ashamed at myself and him and this is where I’m stuck. I can write out a list of what he did to hurt me, but then come up with reasons for why he did it. For example, when I lost my baby and he asked me not to mention his name at the service I was crushed (total understatement), but can understand why from his perspective. I can understand why, but it still makes me cry. It’s a see-saw of emotions all at once, one minute furious at the cold, callousness of his actions immediately followed by some sort of understanding as to why, followed by tears and ending with the inescapable fact that I shouldn’t have been in that situation and ultimately I’ve only got myself to blame! What a confusing mess!
lilly-
no. its not confusing.
my darling…separate what he factually did from what you factually did. and STOP justifying his behavior. there is no justification for his behavior.
want the facts? you better brace (i’m not doing this to hurt you)…
he is a spineless cheating tool asshat who got his mistress pregnant, became an out-of-wedlock father, then denied the child when it went to heaven. and, just in case you were wondering, what do you think he would have done had your son lived? do you think he would have behaved in any other way? no, he would have denied a growing child and you would have been tied to him forever.
i’m sorry, i fear i’ve made you cry. but i want you OFF this treadmill. i repeat: there is NO justification for his behavior. to be fair, there isn’t any for yours either, but you know that.
so, separate the two. you did what you did and he did what he did. learn the lessons you need to learn, to grow, but stay on your own and your son’s side. do not double the exMM’S offense by taking his side. at all. the LAST thing he needs or deserves is the broadmindedness of the woman he impregnated and abandoned.
further – please do NOT interpret this as an encouragement to vent anger at him or to exact revenge. when you finally get angry, and trust me, you will, do not explode at him. do not give him any of your precious power whatsoever. he’s out of your life. keep him out.
lilly, more-
you are keeping yourself stuck in this loop and it is doing you NO good. i believe that perhaps you are using this treadmill, and justifying the exMM’s behavior, as a way to punish yourself for having had an affair, which you can’t fully face into. ironically, allowing the exMM to be more “right” and you more “wrong” keeps you in the doghouse, thereby shielding you from the cutting, grinding pain of having to fully admit that you were an OW and abetted his cheating.
look – just accept your mistakes. face into the error. feel its pain. use that pain to resolve to never, ever repeat it and to grow as a person, to stop choosing unavailable, to be impeccable with your word and your deeds. just do it, get it over with, and then forgive yourself. i’m not minimizing it, but lilly? you have to forgive yourself. you have to forgive yourself.
and don’t even try to think for one second that losing your child is some form of punishment for the affair. the pain and shame you are feeling for the exMM’s treatment of you, and honestly your treatment of yourself in engaging with him, is punishment enough. losing your baby is a terrible tragedy, but not some penance you exacted through sin – sorry, i just don’t believe in that. the suffering and grief over the loss of your child is entirely a separate burden. to me, THAT’s the confusing part.
so just get off the justifying treadmill. face your error, apologize to YOURSELF that you committed it, and move on from it. you will grieve the loss of your precious baby for the rest of your life. but you can, and you must, move on from the affair.
lilly-
jeez, still more. (sorry natalie)
fretting and spinning over the exMM is just (ok, not JUST, you gold medal, hands down, in the shitty situation olympics, while i don’t even place, but still) like me fretting and spinning over my exEUM – yes, we are struggling to figure it out, to assign responsibility, to heal ourselves, to figure out a way to change and be and conduct ourselves going forward, but you know what else it does? it keeps us tied to them. and the more we see their sides over our own, the stronger that tie can be.
because we don’t want to let go. no matter how much the unjustifiable, selfish bastard these two men were to us, we loved them. and we don’t want to let them go.
but that’s exactly what we must do. and we need to ACCEPT that we need to let go. and we need to ACCEPT that we deserve better than to consent to treatment like this from them, but more importantly, from ourselves.
i know – letting go = more grief, more pain. so you take the love you still want to give to him, to the baby, and you give it to yourself. starting now. starting right the EFF now. you love yourself right off that treadmill. error and all.
yep. me too. i’m crying too.
cc, I wish I could offer you some comfort for your own pain and suffering. I’m pretty useless at the moment, but can and do send you lots of hugs, encouragement and support. Your words are wise beyond belief and I’m so grateful for them. I read your response at 6am this morning and immediately started balling, but it’s all good. cc, you can read minds! You’re right I am struggling with the painful fact that I willingly engaged in an affair for which I’m paying the ultimate price. I’m seeing a therapist to help me deal with it all. It’s hard to forgive myself and to let go, but I’m going to try.
Your advice to separate his behaviour from mine directly hit the spot. It makes so much sense. No more excuses for the inexcusable. I will stop rying to justify his behaviour. I think I justify it because I cannot quite believe it! It’s like I’m in some sort of shock still.
Today he emailed to offer me some tips and his services as a coach for any university interviews I might get! I’m astonished – this after 3 months plus of NC. Nothing about the baby and nothing about all the emotional turmoil. I may be overreacting, but it feels hurtful and insulting. It’s hard because I don’t want to let go, but I haven’t responded. I’m trying to get off the effing treadmill. Thank you cc.
Lilly,
First of all I am *so* glad you have found a therapist to help with your grief and self-understanding.
Second, I agree with cc in that your exMM is a world-class jerk – Olympic gold medal for sure – in how he has treated you. It is understandable how you would want to blast him with how you feel. Like you, I wish I had shown more of my anger when the exMM’s disgusting behaviour came to light. Heck, I wish I had slapped him in the face, Hard. But we have to give ourselves closure now.
“Your” exMM has some gall offering you help with interviews. Is he hitting the reset button? Trying to get back to that appropriate, professional place again, with the boundaries that should be in place between a thesis advisor and a grad student? Will he keep those boundaries in place? or will he once again bust them up – showing you how to give proper eye contact during an interview, then looking deep into yours to see if he can get you back as his OW? Sorry for the conjecture but I don’t trust him one bit. And sorry if this hurts to hear, but why does he want to be “there for you” to help with interviews when he was NOT “there for you” when you lost the son you created together?
It has almost been 3 months since we went NC with these jokes of men. Let’s keep going. Don’t give him a chance to hurt and reject you again Lilly. Big hugs xoxo
Learner, cc, runnergirl,
I’m just sobbing here. Ladies, I am so grateful for the wisdom, kindness and understanding. It’s all coming out this week. Where are the tissues……………
lilly, learner-
yeah, he’s totally hitting the reset button. worse, he’s trying to wind back time. unfortunately, time only goes in one direction. flush.
lilly!
first, you’re very welcome.
second – at the risk of over-advising – thank you, but baby girl, nonono. you’re not to comfort anyone right now, you’re to work through your stuff and receive comfort. lots and lots and lots and lots of comfort. just stay in that space, accept the comfort, and feel good about it. do not feel obligated to reciprocate right now, because this is what you NEED. you’re just not used to getting what you need. hence the MM. hence the treadmill. hence BR.
my brother peter has a saying, “when you have bricks, you give them away. when you don’t have bricks, you don’t give them away because you can’t give away what you don’t have.”
do you see? bricks = emotional resources. you, absolutely understandably, have no bricks right now. so you mustn’t deplete yourself by trying to give away what you couldn’t possibly have. no one could.
right now, you receive. you receive until you’re healed. it will take a while. then, when you’re better, when you have bricks, you can start giving them away again.
but by then you’ll be giving them to those who actually deserve them.
massive hugs
cc is right please pleas forgive yourself . and get of that horrible treadmill ive only just done it after 5 odd years with a mm . i think after getting place of own my confidence started to grow a wee bit so when i learnt as cc says spineless asshat had another ow i bailed . my mind had had enough i tokk some power back and binned him . you sound a beautiful , caring lovely person and when we are lifes lows we make mistakes ie mm . dont stop being you , there is nothing wrong in any way shape or form with you he is the one with the problems , in time as we all heal you will find some one who will love you and be there for you at all times . and you will be there for you as well . big , big hugs and strength to a strong person as you become stronger .
ditto: “you sound (like) a beautiful, caring lovely person”
tired, thank you for reminding me that it was a mistake and not a character flaw. It was a ‘mistake’ and I won’t be repeating it. If a married man approached me now I’d run a 10 second mile, that or hit him over the head. Sounds like an excuse, but I’d just come out of a long-term relationship when the affair began and I was feeling very low. Who knew that it was going to get so much worse! Five years is a long time and I really feel for you. I’m glad you took back your power and binned the spineless asshat(I’ve never heard that expression before). Big, big hugs to you too.
Lilly,
Let the anger come. It’s trying to come out against him — let it. It will protect you. Don’t be embarrassed or scared by your anger. Do not insinuate yourself and be angry at yourself — you are the one trying to survive here. HE did YOU wrong, END OF.
Remember anger is an emotion and a set of thoughts, maybe even revenge fantasies, and they’re all in your head. It’s not anything physically happening against him, so it’s okay. Experience your anger, embrace it as your own, and it’s something you rightfully have. This man deliberately did terrible, unforgiveable things to you when he decided not to care, to toss you aside, and to break your heart so many times. To let yourself burn with anger for him is justice for you. You deserve that. It’s important you go through it and come out the other side.
The anger will ease off once you have acknowledged and embraced it. When that happens, let it fade naturally. It will be tiring and may leave you limp, but it’s a release. That’s the bad ju-ju leaving your body and mind, and that’s healthy.
Grizelda, sometimes I feel angry and I’ve had some lovely revenge fantasies where he gets to feel as much pain and hurt as me. When I’m angry I do feel empowered, but I can’t seem to keep it for long. I seem to disintegrate; my other emotions are too strong. If I could just keep it for a bit longer and get it all out I’m sure it would make me feel better. I want to feel good again.
Lilly, I’m so very sorry for the loss of your baby. I hear your pain regarding the self blame and shame associated with being involved with a MM. I went through it too, once my denial cracked and I realized my role. I found Natalie’s articles on forgiveness (of myself) and making mistakes, even giant ones, extremely helpful in moving from self-blame/shame to accountability and responsibility. I didn’t have the added grief of losing a child but I have been able to accept my giant mistake and I’m working on forgiving myself. There is hope after the anger phase subsides. Keep the focus on YOU, not HIM. Many hugs. Also, try to hear that you are not alone. I knew at the outset he was married and I shouldn’t have been there in the first place either. I’ve found it helpful to focus and understand why I opted into such a horrible arrangement. Turn your thoughts to you. And some more hugs. Blasting him won’t change a thing. I told the lying, cheating rat bastard all about himself so many times. It never changed a thing. xxoo
Well, I have been trying to keep off this site for fear that I was reading things into my relationship based on what I read here that maybe wasn’t really there. So I stayed off, did not read or think about anything that I had read here and really tried to give my relationship the ol’ college try. I would like some input…as you can see, I am back.
We talked and decided to give friendship rather then relationship a chance. That worked for about a week. I informed him that I would not sleep with him until he was ready to be in a committed relationship with me. He understood. We slept together again last week. Now, during this time, my Ex has been coming around causing havoc since he now knows I’m dating (I have children with the ex) and he is “concerned” for the children. The new guy has stuck around until last week when he decided that he would “support” me but would not see me physically until things “settled down” with the ex. The day after that, my ex started texting the new guy (ex broke into my cellular phone account to get my new boyfriends number). This was the second instance of the Ex texting the new guy. I had asked new guy to just not respond. The other day, new guy DID respond to the ex and basically broke a confidence and told Ex things he should not of. New guy then informed me afterwards of what he did and I was LIVID. We spent all day in a text argument and by that night I had decided I was done with the new guy. He had broke my trust, betrayed me and he wouldn’t even spend physical time with me anymore. I broke it off with him by informing him that he had to be in or out and since he wasn’t willing to be in, then he was out. He was VERY clear before that, that he was not going to see me physically until some arbitrary settling down point. I should point out, my ex has harassed, stalked, and threatened me during the time and I did have to get a PPO against him. Do you think new guy had reason to back off physically for now, and to text convo with the ex and I am overreacting? Or am I seeing things clearly that he busted boundaries, got involved where he shouldn’t have and is hanging on the fence with one foot in and one foot out….
Unsure
You’re the one busting your own boundaries. You say “just friends” then have sex in no time. You continued to have sex with someone who isn’t committed, despite your alleged stance on the matter. You entertain your ex’s drama. You discuss important matters via text. It’s all someone else’s fault. And now you think that out of this mess there may be a retrievable relationship. There isn’t.
Sort out your relationship with yourself first.
Yes, this is blunt but since you’re unsure I’m throwing the icy water of cold reason over you.
It’s funny Unsure – while at the doctor’s surgery this morning, I was thinking of the bizarreness of your situation and when I got back I saw that Grace and SM had responded.
Here’s my take: You’re crossing the new guy’s boundaries, the new guy has overstepped your boundaries (in this last incident) and your ex is crossing both yours and your new guy’s boundaries. I’m not even going to get into the whole sleeping with this guy after you told him you weren’t going to…
You’re obviously trying to take the nicey nice stance, which hasn’t really got you very far with your ex, who if he has done all of this stuff and you have had to get a PPO (not sure what that is) then he’s clearly not someone you should be engaging with on any level and should have strict terms about the kids, which incidentally he is using as a way into you.
The new guy was 100% right to back off physically and in fact should have backed off altogether.
Where he has overstepped the mark and I don’t know what the ins and outs of it are (and don’t need to), is by saying something that he shouldn’t have. I don’t think you can tell him not to respond (or at least you can but you need to ensure that you’ve gained agreement and that he knows EXACTLY what is going on with your ex, what he does etc) but if he has said something that he shouldn’t have, that is wrong. His best course of action is to report this guy to the police.
Your best course of action is to leave this new guy alone (I don’t think he’s really available because if he was, he’d run a mile from this situation), stop having discussions by text, and get the situation with your ex addressed before you get into anymore relationships. You must also learn to empathise with other people’s positions – not your ex but this new guy. He is in the wrong but he is not the only one busting boundaries here and if you don’t address your situation, not only are you putting you in harms way, but you’re actually putting this guy (and any person you get involved with and choose to leave your phone out around your ex to) in harms way also. He should not have handled the situation in the way that he did but I imagine it’s not easy to be getting what I suspect are abusive and threatening messages from your ex.
word
You are very good!! I have always been ‘too nice’ Not wanting to rock the boat. It was how I was brought up. I knew no other way. Keep people happy, avoid conflict. Be happy if even if your are not etc……
Freeatlast, I like your tag. I also grew up in a family where it was important to always be ‘nice’ particularly for the females. To this day I fear confrontation and I’m often a “yes” person when I really mean “no”. I was so afraid of what the exMM would think about me if I expressed myself that I held back my true thoughts. This site has been a lifeline for me as I’m finally learning to stand up for myself. I still want to be a nice person, but I now understand it’s important to be a real person with proper boundaries and whose isn’t afraid to express her needs.
Unsure I think the new guy had good reason to back off physically, but I think something is seriously wrong with him that he texted your ex info about you when he knows the guy is ‘dangerous’. I know two people personally who were killed in situations like this. One was the bf of a lady separated from a crazy husband (she was killed too), the other was a good friend who was also separated from a crazy husband, she, her new bf and her best friend since childhood were all killed by the crazy ‘ex’.
I hope for your own sake that this situation works itself out. You were not overreacting to the new guys actions at all, its uncaring that he would have a dialog with the ex knowing it would put you in danger. But I dont think a healthy available man would want to be involved in a situation like this.
Unsure When,
Going purely on what you’ve described here, I’m with your New Guy all the way in backing off. I think you would probably do the same thing if you were in his shoes.
Until you (that’s you and no one else) draw a line in the sand with your Ex, and firmly tell your Ex to stand down, stop pestering, stop elbowing in out of jealousy and vindictiveness, and to leave you alone so you can live your own life, there’s just no point in any other man being with you. It’s too much to put up with. If you have a PPO against your ex, are you really enforcing it?
Ex wrangled his way through to New Guy so that he could pester him as well. New Guy, as a result of being fed up, said or repeated things to your Ex that he shouldn’t have, that’s true. But I think at that point he figured this whole thing is going way outside the original job description of Unsure When’s Boyfriend. From where I’m at, I don’t see that he’s the one who is fence-sitting because has now told you what he wants.
You’ve asked him to be either ‘in’ or ‘out’ of the relationship. But where are you yourself? Are you ‘In’? Or ‘out’? If you’re ‘in’, you’ve got some work to do in putting your Ex in his place once and for all, and ensuring he stays there. If you’re ‘out’, then all I can suggest is please do move on, leave New Guy alone, and figure out how you’re going to go forward solo with a cling-on Ex.
I’m afraid it’s not going to be simple for any of you. But your options are pretty clear, I think.
Thanks Natalie for your crystal clear view on things. It is just the medicine i needed. I am 9 weeks no contact with a man that i carried on a 6 and a half year “relationship” with. No contact is so challenging when you felt dependent on those highs you get after being starved for decent treatment. I am finally out as it turns out that he was seeing someone new when we ended for the 20 millionth time. He is still seeing her, this i know because he decided to go across town to drive down my street Friday with her in the car. She knows nothing of me I am sure. Who does that?? Seriously, i have tried to stay the hell away from him in all regards just have to him breeze by with me standing in my front yard. He couldn’t even look at me. Appears that friendship that I thought we had; we do not. Isn’t this what assclowns do or do i have to still have to consider him unavailable. 🙂
HELP ! SMILE ! until recently i have had this on and off relationship with mr. eu for 3 years. i have had MANY “enough moments”. i pray daily for the strength to FINALLY let go. i also read daily from here to help me AND IT DOES. THANK YOU .when i think of all the excuses i accepted..i can only shake my head. i could go on and on and on as to this mans behavior BUT I CHOSE TO stay….. i also have wanted to explode and tell him ABOUT ALL THE THINGS I HAVE NOT SAID AND WANTED TO. i REAlly really just want to get passed all this emotional pain, and i know i will. we have gone round and round with the being friend thing. and EVEN THEN.. SOOOOOO disappointing. you know when you are too embarrasses to even tell your girlfriends what you have accepted from these men. ( sad face).. i amHOPEIONG I GET positive responses to help me make it passed this frustrating .. sad.. LONELY time to NOT NOT NOT NOT call him…. thank you in advance… stay strong ladies….
michele-
er….sorry to tell you, as i’m sure many others here will too, that you will feel this disappointment and pain and frustration until you ACT. until you opt out.
you can’t wait to feel good about it. you’re not going to feel good until you earn back your own self-respect. you have to just jump and make it permanent.
there is something to be said for waiting until you believe you have enough resolve or are fed up enough to indeed make it permanent, but how many months, years need to pass before you feel ready?
something in this situation is either feeding you or keeping you from facing into something else. you need to figure that out. i won’t lie, it will be painful. but that pain is better than watching yourself be a clammed-up doormat.
so – how much more esteem are you willing to spend on this situation? any? none?
jump. just jump.
Tis funny, I commented on another relationship site about how I thought being educated, self sufficient, running my own farm, being fit were good things about a person (and after all, who wants a helpless sponge rather than a real, functional, person?). I was slammed by a guy big time because I didn’t say whether I was “hot” and that I ought to forget my education etc and learn to devote myself to a man. Talk about being someone you are not! Apparently that’s what some guys want: dumb yourself down and bake cookies. Grizelda, there is a site: “womensavers”, however we women have to gain the spudey
Wretched phone! I meant we need to develop pur spidey senses and bail immediately when something does not feel right. Even though a guy may have a bad rep, you may be out of the social loop, or may be acting out of loneliness and a lack of choices and be initially blinded to their flaws, a couple of my failings that I deal with 24/7. That site does post photos and locations of some very dangerous guys (and batterers, con men) so it is useful.
You run your own farm?? Wow that´s my lifelong dream, you rock Miskwa and if I were a guy I´d date you asap. 🙂
This was quite an epiphany for me months ago– by altering and sacrificing yourself in order to be “owed” something by a partner is actually quite self*ish*, and not self*less*. Being honest about who you are is actually better for both parties and yields a genuine relationship, not a playact.
NML,
So what are you saying exactly? That example you gave of your ex who was “ridiculously” agreeable, are you saying that if he was not so agreeable then you would still be with him and in a healthy relationship?
mike-
reread the post. what she’s saying (nml, tell me if i get it wrong) is that she was dealing with someone who would not admit his true feelings, about anything, even for something as banal as “what would you like to have for dinner?”
ever deal with someone like that? its frustrating, infuriating, you always feel like you’re failing and guessing wrong, and like they’re holding (withholding is more like it) the “answer” over your head, and no forward motion can happen. they’re not being authentic, they’re at best so conflict-avoidant that no meaningful interaction can take place or at worst so manipulative that you just can’t stand them anymore.
so, if you are anything resembling an authentic person, eventually you just don’t want to be around them because they’re always, in some sense, lying to you, even though they don’t see it that way. so you can’t ever believe them when, for instance, they say, gee, i don’t know, “i love you”.
get it?
I understand the “I love you” part but I don’t see what is wrong with being a nice guy or agreeable if that’s how you truly feel. For instance, I am very easy going, I’m not a picky eater so often when dinner plans are called for unless I’m particularly not feeling like a type of food, I’m usually up for anything.
I mean if they are agreeable, they say I love you, they are down for whatever you want to do, I mean in the end if they treat you well, show respect and all the “landmarks” and “hallmarks” of a relationship, then why would you not want that? Because he’s too nice? Why would you think mean things about that person?
Mike, I’m a bit fascinated by this discussion because what this post definitely *isn’t* about is nice people being ‘bad’. I’m married to a nice guy but he has his own spine and mind and we are in a mutual relationship.
Your response tells me that you’ve taken this post personal as if I’ve highlighted something about you that you think is ‘nice’ that you think is being made to sound bad.
This post is about hidden agendas, not about nice people. Being nice because you have an ulterior motive even if it is as simple as never speaking up or making decisions so that the responsibility is on someone else is not ‘nice’ – it’s passivity.
Like the post said, if you genuinely have no opinion on something then knock yourself out. I don’t always have a preference for what I want to eat. Big deal! But I do participate in *most* discussions on something.
It concerns me that you won’t acknowledge the subject of the post. Really, someone being nice is an aside if there is an agenda, a darker side or even abuse. I hear from men and women who are stuck in abusive relationships because they keep reminding themselves that sometimes the person does nice things.
It feels like you’ve entirely missed the point. There weren’t all of the hallmarks and landmarks in these relationships and the problem was not about being ‘nice’. Nobody has ‘made’ you feel that nice guys aren’t liked – you have made that judgement about you without truly considering the subject or other people’s experiences. It’s like showing up to a discussion in a big hall and shouting “I’m nice!” and we’re all looking at you going “O……K…..” Get behind you.
This is what I’m saying:
“And finally it slotted into place about why I’d disliked a particular ex, yet had felt guilty and even ashamed for not liking him – he was very passive (although admittedly that would give way to another habit of passive aggression as well).
What bugged me at the time was that he was ridiculously agreeable. He just wouldn’t be honest in terms of ‘feedback’ or his opinion. Everything was what he thought I wanted to hear, he wanted to do whatever I wanted to do (even when he blatantly didn’t), and even when I was in the wrong or he just had a different opinion, he wouldn’t express it. I’d know that he wasn’t being honest with me and sometimes I could even pick up the simmering annoyance, but he’d just smile and be agreeable and I’d be “AAAAAAAAGGGGHHH!”
It made my blood boil. Then I would feel guilty and ashamed because how could I be thinking mean things about someone who was so “nice”? I think it was why we stayed together a little longer than we should have. In the end, I ended it for a number of reasons but not least because it would have been like pulling teeth to have some mutual honesty in the relationship.”
Also thanks to CC for the great expanded explanation.
Ok I guess I see what you are saying. I mean I understand worrying about whether he was honest about how he felt about you. Like did he really “love” you or was he just saying that cause that’s what you wanted to hear.
But what’s wrong with being nice and wanting to please you? Maybe he didn’t care what you two would do on a Friday night as long as he was spending it with you.
That’s how I feel sometimes. At least when I am initially dating a girl and I like her. It’s like, I’m down for whatever as long as we are spending time together.
Also I guess this post just made me feel like girls don’t want a nice guy.
Mike
My boyfriend is nice, gentle even. But yes it was a little bit annoying when he was too shy to ask me out. He plays soccer, is v competitive, likes public speaking, so I couldn’t see that he was intimidated. But I stuck with it because I liked him. It may help you to be a little more assertive, pick the restaurant, pick the time and date. It’s just a courtship ritual, don’t overthink it.
My boyfriend and I met at church. I thought he was very holy and vice versa. What’s really progressed our relationship is that we let the other see we aren’t perfect. We do get frustrated, we can be bitchy, we do fail. It’s fine.
No one is nice all the time, not me and, I hazard, not you either. Be yourself, if you think that is not acceptable, look at whether you need to change, grow or just let yourself be. This is for everyone, not just you.
mike-
in addition to what everyone else said, maybe think of it this way:
its not really about being nice or not nice. its about being real and about being able to express authentic feelings. yes, of course, if you are really care about someone, you are nice to them and that is great. and if you can express your authentic feelings and opinions in a gentle, considerate way, then you’re way ahead of most of us.
but feeling one needs to be a doormat that capitulates on EVERYthing is not good for a person and not good for the relationship. that smacks of desperation.
i don’t think that’s what you were saying (the desperation part). so, yes, please be gentle and considerate. but have your own mind and express it.
mike-
more…
so its absolutely clear, what we want is an authentic partner that we can admire, who loves us and, yes, wants to please us. so we can give and love and please back. so he/she can give to us and love us and please us back. so we can give/love/please. so he/she can….
see, its like a big happy circle of love. but ya gotta have the authenticity first. otherwise, its all just a load of crap.
Hi Mike,
My ex, who made me go AAARRRGHGH too, would ask me the same question.
It’s about balance. There is a difference between wanting to do kind things for someone to make them smile, and never having an opinion and only doing things when they are initiated by her.
There is a difference between knowing that whatever you choose to do together will be extra fun because it’s done together, and “not caring” what you do with someone to the point of always leaving it to her to come up with ideas of what to do or make the decisions.
I remember going on some ‘dates’ with a guy who had me sit on a couch with him and watch TV twice, and the third time (I thought, he can’t possibly be planning the same thing) he mixed it up by wanting couch, TV plus making out! The guy’s lack of imagination and initiative was stunning. I suggested doing other stuff, but he was like, I’m fine with this, I don’t care about doing fancy stuff, it’s about spending time together.
Don’t confuse “down for whatever” with “nice guy”. “Down for whatever” could mean flexible and open to new experiences, or it could mean: “I can’t be arsed to think up a plan / I’m too scared to suggest a plan / I don’t even realize having initiative is an attractive, mature trait.”
Hi Mike,
You do raise good points, and I think it helps to try to differentiate.
I think, for me, over-agreeableness (different from just being considerate) shows weak character. And weak character is not fanciable. It becomes like having a small child clinging onto your hand who’s just tagging along. “Where are you taking me next, Mummy?” Or being accompanied by your own shadow. Travelling with nothing but a shadow is a lonely journey.
OR it indicates someone who does not hold an opinion because he genuinely doesn’t care. “A movie tonight? Yeah whatever you want. Stop for a burger? Yeah whatever you want. Go to the pub? Yeah whatever you want.” doesn’t equal nice, it just equals someone who wants to put in the least effort possible in the going-around-doing-things time before finally getting to the great event: bedtime. “Ok so I did everything you wanted me to do today, which obviously means you’re happy, so now I deserve a reward” makes me see them as petulant children rather than men. They’re not nice, they’re a pain in the arse. And it’s boring.
Take the boredom, disappointment and frustration and multiply it by a million if the woman also has to foot the bill for the trips to the cinema, the burger bar, the pub, and anything else they do. At that point, he’s well and truly dumped as a useless specimen. Because it’s not the issue of the money that’s coming out of her purse but the whole ‘child tagging along’ thing. The moment a woman gets the ‘child’ vibe, it’s all over. Particularly in the area of the bedtime.
Being nice and considerate is active, not passive. And it’s thoughtful. Always thoughtful. “I know you like Gainsborough and Constable, so how would you like to go with me to the Turner retrospective? I can get tickets for Saturday.” “I really fancy a weekend at the lake. It would be great if you’d come with me. Would you like to, and when are you free?” “You know, I really want to have a night in tonight. Why don’t I get a bottle of wine and download two films — one your choice, one mine?” That’s grownup.
griz…
you’re a frigging GENIUS.
and….holy crap. that was the exEUM. which is ironic, since he was always spouting about maturity. the double-standard hypocrite – he meant maturity in others, not himself. and by maturity in others he meant me being acquiescent and letting him do and accepting whatever he wanted, which was preferably nothing.
and what birthday do you think he had when we were together? 61. SIXTY-ONE!
a huge overgrown child. who, by the way, was as utterly selfish and taking and manipulative at “bedtime” as he was everywhere else. a huge overgrown selfish child.
ok, this is a real horror moment. how did i not see this clearly? there certainly was a preponderance of evidence. how desperate must i have been?
VERY. jeeeeeeeezus. (sorry, grace)
“They’re at best so conflict-avoidant that no meaningful interaction can take place, and at worst, they’re so manipulative that you can’t stand being with them.”
I briefly dated a woman like this. She constantly agreed with me and praised me. I hated it because it felt very manipulative, and desperate. She seemed so desperate for a woman to love her that it was scary. There was so much emptiness and pain in her life…maybe she thought I could take all this emptiness and pain. I don’t think I could have made a dent in it. I felt like she was desperately trying to manipulate me to love her, rather than being herself and letting the relationship just develop naturally.
I felt that I didn’t really know her. And if she thought that I would only love her if she agreed with me all the time — she never knew me. I am not that fragile, egotistical or rigid that I can’t take someone having different opinions or ideas than I do. Really, what’s the point of having a partner who agrees with me about everything? Yes, you have to have compatible core values, but if someone agrees with me about everything — I might as well just stay home and talk to myself! If I agree with you about absolutely everything — what do I add to your life?
😉
I keep thinking that since the person I have been sleeping with is agreeable that it must mean he is interested. He is incredibly affectionate when we are together but when I am not there, he does not take the time to initiate contact. He won’t communicate with me, just be pleasant and it’s frustrating because I want to have a grown-up conversation regarding where he stands and if the feelings are mutual. He is incredibly passive and I have been overly-sensitive since I don’t know what’s going on. I feel so heartbroken. I am afraid to pick-up the phone and call since he hasn’t bothered to get in touch. We are friends and I thought it could have progressed into more. I feel like I’m a nuisance. He’ll always answer the phone when I call and be ‘nice’ but that doesn’t help because it doesn’t clarify anything.
I have been ambivalent and have even told him that I didn’t know what I wanted (at one point stating I didn’t want a relationship). I’m not surprised if he doesn’t trust me. Last weekend I visited with my ex. I’m having a hard time communicating how I really feel about him to him since he is so closed off. I don’t know if he’s EUM because I’m being a bit EU. It’s not fair of me to ask him to put it all on the table first. I feel lost. Should I be brave and get in touch or do I already have my answer here…
atrophy-
honey….sorry. from what you said, i think you have your answer.
maybe you were EU and you’re not anymore. but it sounds like he still is.
suggestion: i’d, if you can possibly do this, i know it hurts, just drop communication. see what happens. do NOT contact him.
then, if he calls or comes around, say flat out “listen, i really care about you and i would like us to have a real relationship.” then stop talking. let it sit there. pause and wait for an answer. do not explain further. if the answer is anything OTHER than “yes, i care about you too and would like that too.” then he’s not opting into it. don’t settle for any kind of mealy-mouthed bullshit, which you are likely to get. its either an unequivocal, unmistakable yes, or its a no.
if its yes, yay! if its no, then at least you know you did everything you could. i know it hurts. but don’t settle for casual: the lost of self-respect when you know you’re settling hurts FAR more than accepting what isn’t and moving on to something real.
trust me on this – i know.
Atrophy
Do you know how you feel?
Saying you don’t want a relationship, when you really do, is a particular kind of “playing nice”, if you’re doing it because you think it’s what he wants to hear. I did that too. It’s signing away your rights.
If you have changed your mind, and have grown feelings for him, then tell him! Be brave. If he doesn’t feel the same way at least you will have your answer and can move on.
Atrophy
“at one point stating I didn’t want a relationship”.
Maybe he believed you?
The man asked me if I could see myself married (not to him in particular but I’m not dim enough to think it hadn’t crossed his mind). The thoughts crashed through my mind (I don’t know, I don’t mind, I never thought about it, I’ll say whatever a) doesn’t commit me b) won’t scare you away c) what you want to hear). I decided to tell the truth. I heard the word “yes” come out of my mouth. Simple. Confusion reigns when you won’t say what you believe or want.
Yes you risk rejection, the boyfriend risked rejection. But what’s the alternative?
Not knowing is worse. That is the number one thing I have learned this year. I am learning all the time. Don’t bury your head in the sand and carry on doing what you’ve always done. It didn’t work before and it’s not going to work now.
Brilliant, Grace. Well said. food for thought. The alternative really is rubbish. It’s time to speak up with what we actually do want and stop shirking it so as not to chase ‘him’ away or to remain on the fence. Women tend to imagine that what we want is something we are not supposed to want (if it’s not in line with what ‘he’ wants then it must be a bad thing – second rate) We feel guilty/needy/unreasonable for wanting, and worse for letting our wanting be known (crime of the century!). Yes, we must let it be known, yes we are allowed to want, yes our wants are valid., no it’s not a criminal offence!
Yes I think be aware that you’re giving him something. If that something is going to start coming with conditions (ie a real relationship), he may want that, or he may not. But what he’s probably going to try to do first… Plan A… is keep the status quo. That’s what EUMs do. Be prepared for that. Be prepared you might be hearing lip service being paid — just enough to keep your favours flowing. My best advice is remember that actions speak louder than words.
Also be prepared that if he is EU, he won’t change. Not for you, not for anybody. He can’t. None of ’em can. They don’t change, they only change women.
I whole heartdly admit to this , ive been tooo nice for yrs to my ex hubby and to all the men that walked all over me. Half the time it was because i thought they would go away , they did anyway. Apart from my husband who as i left admitted to mentally bullying me . Plus when you do make a stand you then second guess yourself did i do right thing ? etc. i recently binned the mm i had been a doormat to for five years two weeks down line i admit i thought did i do right thing as he ob had a slapped ego this little doormat who had loved him for all this time had the gall to say no dont want your scraps . i thougght he wont be my friend now , as were meant to be best mates funny i dont hear from him now the one person he could really talk to …….. i wobbled big time like a girl on a skateboard but this week i hope to feel stronger than the last couple of weeks and i do , it is a shitty path to walk back to self esteemdom , one has to do by ones self .Plus i have a very toxic friend i did a little experiment the other day when she text her usual woe , i ignored and spoke about me , now i usually get loads of texts all bout her , i got four when i tried this as i refused to feed her , so i guess she went and woe is me someone eles .lol so i can see it and now things are changing . calmness and strength to you all x
Tired, I hear your pain. I too am two weeks into no contact, trying to survive this intense MM/EUM narcissist type. My niceness, my flexibility, my give-give-give, I thought, was appreciated. I was wrong. It was all for nothing and totally overlooked.
Part of what’s affecting you, which I know is affecting me too, is the overwhelming feeling that no one cares. The NC leaves us feeling abruptly adrift, abandoned, lonely, rejected, unseen and unheard — and obviously you’ve got additional friend problems where she is certainly behaving like she cares not for you and your troubles, as she’s shouting you down to compete for attention.
However something inside of me says “God god god I’m so glad that’s all over! It needs to be over. I needed to get away. It was never going to come to any good. It ran its course, it really did. I just need my feelings to go away, and the only way that’s going to happen is Time + NC.”
Once the feelings abate, I will be free.
In the meanwhile, I’m brushing off friends who want something from me. No more Ms Nice Lady. I’m only seeing friends who aren’t climbing all over me for support, sympathy, heavy gossip, any of that stuff that’s going on in their lives. I’m just not in a place to shoulder their burdens for them as I used to be. Screw ’em.
Where I left things off with the exMM/EUM, I’m satisfied. It was a strong set of calm, measured, low-voiced, heartfelt statements that shook him to the core, ‘stunned’ and ‘amazed’ him (his words). He was totally lost for words, not like him at all. When he did manage to find some, he said he badly misjudged things and had to reassess everything that’s passed. On that note, I mustn’t and will not go back and spoil it with any more jibber-jabber clutter, no matter how badly I want him to acknowledge that I’m hurting. I created a literally stunning piece of verbal architecture and I have to let it stand unsullied. I mustn’t go back in and graffiti over it with neon spray paint, eh?
thank you and im sorry your going thro it to , big hugs and yes it sounds like you took the power back . stay strong im trying im into 4 days of no contact and today im finding it really hard how someome who said i was his best friend can shut the door just like i never exsisted , ive been crying on and off but ive stayed nc. when i saw him he was expecting the usually doormat but instead of being my quiet self i blurted it out , ” why am i upset over someone who doesntwant me , you basically told me your intersted in someone eles , i dont want to scrabble round for scraps , youve treated me appalling like shit actually “. he sat there in stunned silence and i said but your still a mate . he basically demoted me to botty call over years and had found someone new to be ow , i had found out and kicked off he pursed me ,and reeled me back in and because my gut said no hes seeing her as well i kept on at him till i bailed . i thought hed still try and be friends but no its like i dont want to be booty call and hes gone bye then bang shut door . i know ive done right thing but its like you said you feel abandoned , shit , rejected etc , i go councelling , and signed up to things but its beginning of week i find toughest , i work part time as i have two boys . ive asked councellor to swap my session from end of week to be begining as thats when im down most . some days i feel ill never get it out my system any words of help from you girls out there in the first few days of nc x
Hi Tired, not in the first days of NC, but been through it and just want to give you a heads up: you can do this- you are ALREADY doing it!
And yes it feels like utter shit, but you are taking care of yourself now and at some point, the hurt will start to lessen, I know it seems impossible now, but it WILL.
One thing that helped me was writing a list of all the things- specific things, like ‘left me to deal with bailiffs about to evict me from our flat’, and general things ‘never gave a shit about my feelings, however well I tried to explain, communicate them’- that he had done. I kept it somewhere handy and kept looking back on it as a reminder to what I was GAINING, not losing, by taking this route and walking away from him.
Also I made little cards and stuck them around the house (I know this could be tricky if you live in a shared house) reminding myself of the fact that I was acting in MY best interests, that I am FREE, and that I am taking care of number 1 now- and that’s me, not him.
Anyway just wanted to send you hugs and encouragement, to stay strong and to have faith.
Good advice – I also made the list – and kept adding to it as I remembered things. I am only 12 days NC and STRUGGLING. My list now has 35 things on it. Why would I want back someone who has 35 faults? It is good therapy and you may even make yourself laugh….”Hairy nostrils” was one of my lighter ones. You can do this. We can do it together.
victourious this is the time in the morning that hits me hard i wake up with day ahead, i feel so pissed that my so called best friend and suddenly bang gone , i feel like telling him but i wont as i know hes not a bestfriend. best friends dont treat people like that , lie to them, i feel such a fecking plum trying last week to be friends with someone who treated me so shit and theres me saying we still be mates, im the embarrasement he wants to squish under the carpet and forget . Note 1 this man is a lying,cheating selfish toe rag that desrves the biggest does of karma in his life , i hope he gets what he dishes out .
tired, grizelda, victorious-
i’m not sure you’re actually feeling this way, but i think i hear inklings of it, so if i may –
try to take the pressure off yourselves to feel better. the early days of NC, and looking back, i consider the first MONTH at least to be early days, are very, very hard. we’re talking grinding pain, and a roller coaster of pain, anguish, and anger. i know you think you know what “it takes time” means, but you don’t, i didn’t, but i found out. i really takes TIIIIIIME.
do not expect yourselves to feel better fast, you won’t, so do not apply any pressure – you feel how you feel and its ok. do not expect yourselves to heal at any particular rate, your rate is your rate and that’s ok too.
you’re not doing it wrong. it just sucks. hard. so be kind, very kind and understanding, to yourselves and breathe through it. i promise you it will not last forever. get through the days, but think in terms of weeks and months. and be proud of every second of NC you rack up.
‘You feel how you feel and it’s okay’ — yes it’s a relief to read this, CC.
I feel small improvements every day. Sometimes I have a ‘dip’ in the day that’s hard, but overall it IS moving in the right direction. I just can’t rush it, as you say. The ‘crazy panic’ stage combined with rapid thumping heartbeat and nausea lasted the first 4 days and nights, and I was glad to see that finish. It was agony. It then settled down into a continual up and down stress response, occasional mild panic, and continued disinterest in food. That lasted a week. For the last 6 days it’s been a milder stress response, not continuous, and broken up by periods of a couple hours at a time where I’m actually fully interested in doing other things. I’m also just starting to gain control of redirecting my thoughts away from him, which I know is a good sign. Over the last few days, I’ve just started being able to look at him slightly objectively without feeling anything particularly overwhelming. I think sadness is the main component now – sometimes more, sometimes less. But my thoughts are more grounded and logical. I’m getting tired and bored of the topic of him. Still not eating much – more, but not much – what a stupid and dangerous diet plan!
griz-
that’s great. but that’s really fast, i think. i don’t know how long you were going out, but to feel this much better in, what, 3ish weeks? wow.
so, fantastic! but for everybody else reading this post: like they say with diet plans (i actually love this diet plan, but make sure you take your vitamins), results not typical. your results may vary. and if they do, that’s fine, absolutely fine.
thankyou that girl ,i came home and went to bed as i was tired and came here and read some posts , made me feel better. i purchased nats no contact rule book and ill read that later to. last week i text him wed , thur and fri and i got cold distant (NOT BOTHERED ) replies , every time i feel im gonna do somthing i regret i say “you know the response youll get it will hurt more than not doing it” and i dont . im determined to grow a backbone ,sorting out my bookcase today i found a old diary from 1987 when i was 18 and i havent changed chasing round blokes who didnt want me no more and i guess that triggered it off , i felt ashamed twenty years later i hadnt changed , but im about to now finally , thankyou x
I am sure many of us can identify with what you have said Tired. Isn’t it great to get a new start even at our age? No more running around after unavailables for us. When I first met my ex EUM he told me that what he really liked about me was my “aloofness” Obviously I took this as a glaring sign that I should run around after him like he was The Last Man On Earth. Just can’t understand where it all went wrong??????? Anyway, we can do this with help fron Natalie and all the fantastic women here on BR. You are so much better than him. Just think of it as a dream/nightmare and move on.
Grizelda – thanks for articulating this so clearly. It is amazing how our experiences here on BR are so familiar – I have just, finally after a year of trying, broken contact with a man who was very bad for me. I said what I had to say, said it well, said it calmly and said it honestly. And now, even though the sadness and loneliness are sometimes overwhelming and I want to contact him desperately, my pride says No! I know that to say more would diminish the value of what I said and, consequently, diminish me as well. No spray paint for me either. Just pride and knowing that I can see this through and come out stronger! Thanks
soozie dont contact i to did what you did and then contacted him out of lonliness last week . i got replies but they cames indifferent gung ho . this is since fridaymy 5th day of nc and i wobbled big time this morn . i always do in the morn . i may call it moronmorning blues as i feel they need to get in touch with the moron. But i take pride as so should all you girls that at last we made a stand , im a roundabout way i did . i HAVE to remember this man is not my best friend he treated me far from such and took advantage of who i am and he knows it . strength to you , come on here if you need to get it off your chest , i do . i hope the others dont mind me waffling on but it helps to get it up and out 🙂
Hey ladies, just want to say keep it up, yes Tired you are right, this man is NOT your best friend and Victorius I think that 35-long list says it all! especially the nostrils, ugh!
When I left the ex-AC I stayed on my friend’s couch and was lucky to have her there to stop me every time I wanted to contact him.
But I remember also how getting advice/ support from women I had never even met but I knew had walked in exactly my shoes really hit home, knowing that they are people out there who have felt the same awful stuff we feel in those dark days/ mornings. So it’s really good to get it off your chest and have that feeling off connection with others- and NOT with him.
P.S. despite my still being at an early stage in the whole dating thing I can say that the year since I left him has been amazing… I am a different person now. We can get there, have faith.
Tired
Reading that brought tears to my eyes. I was always a morning person who woke happy. For the last year until quite recently my heart ached when I woke and it was always a struggle to force myself to get up. Just a feeling of dread. That has finally gone, for the most part, though today ive felt a little blue.
hello mymble , i got up and went into work , i fired of a text at my friend sais ignore it and she does as she knows it stops me texting him. felt better at work , laughed got on with my day till toxic friend got intouch bout me going back on fb and that i lied about it i let rip no i dont lie and i dont need your permission either she is controlling/victim type sent me down hill , but i got back up and laughed with my friends old one and new found one and felt better . riding home in car i felt bout sending him a text saying where is my friend that made me lol who said they couldnt imagine me gone from theirlives that he never ever wanted that ???? but no coz i see my toxic friend rant rave at her ac and it changes nothing and me texting that hed think spineless little doormat still there begging for my friendship , so no i soldier on , and little glimmers of happiness bubble up and glimmers of hope and all the new healthy friends and good times that await. And i want to say to you lovely girls who support each other out there get out do somthing diff you never would do and make friends and do stuff and it helps , so far ive sung kakroke and im shy lol, enrolled in english gcse lol i need it (cant you tell) guitar course and driven all way to devon and back 600 mile trip , all little self confidence boosters after him over the years and exhubby making me feel poo . there is nowt anyone can do to embarrase me did that myself , storming down pub to see ow but i never went in thank god .lol and in a couple of months a yr ill laugh bout the shell of who i was and smile in mirror at the girl reborn and its never to late . Twenty , fourty or sixty we are great !
Thank you for your advice ladies. It is good to hear feedback. I do know that I have been sending all kinds of mixed signals. I spoke to two friends about it last night and they said that ‘if a man is interested, trust me you’ll know’.
I feel like I should leave it alone. I had told him on 4 occasions that I liked him without a response from him. I’m already hurt and maybe it’s better to lead/leave with my pride than to ask him to write out a rejection letter spelling it out. I guess I can take a hint.
I don’t want to speculate things. I am taking your advice to heart and the next time I won’t freak out and say I don’t want a relationship because I’m scared.
Natalie, dear Natalie… I am so thankful you came into my life. In a month I have learned more about myself, EU men, and my dysfunctional “relationship” from you and your readers than I had been able to figure out in 23 YEARS of an off-and-on situation. I am sorry you had the rotten background you did, but I am sure they were defining teaching experiences (or divine teaching experiences)in your life so you could help the rest of us. We’re truly blessed by you sharing your wisdom.
I won’t go into the details of my situation except to say it mirrors so many others I’ve read, and I too thought I was the problem or the one going crazy. I always wanted to know WHY he acted like he did. Now that I know why, it’s all very clear and I really don’t CARE why. How much time and energy I gave just trying to figure him out! It is so true that I needed to spend that time thinking about *myself* and not him.
He has started blowing warm again now that I’ve cut contact for the last time without warning. It feels so powerful and right to be the one in control for a change… and he has no idea why. Except he does. I was ashamed I had given away my self respect and dignity to him, but now it’s coming back. BTW, I have never had any problem with self confidence and being respected until HIM.
Thanks to all the ladies who have written. Your posts have helped me a lot. I have, after over TWO DECADES, finally realized what’s going on and won’t stand for it any longer. To you younger women who have been in a relationship for a couple of months before finding out your guy was an EUM, you have no idea how fortunate you are that it didn’t drag on for years, like it does with some of us.
This clip… is amazing. It’s awesome once you “get it” and can see what they are doing.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QZuOKUrwoys
Sorry to be so long winded, but I wanted to say “Bless your heart” (old saying in the Southern U.S.) to Natalie for the enlightenment she’s given us, and thanks to all the other women who have shared their stories and helped us all heal.
Onward and upward!
Carol
Ugh, that’s nasty.
Do men really, consciously on purpose do this stuff?
Carol – Thanks for sharing the link. I think there are more and more TV and youtube parodies of these systems out there, helping women see what a lot of guys have been doing for a long time. The show was trying to make a joke out of it, but the comments under the video suggest that a lot of men watching just saw how funny it was to think of scaring the crap out of a woman or to seduce her.
Real people are out there trying to practice this stuff, or in fact practicing it (my exAC may never have heard about the DENNIS system or any other, but he had the attitude and approach down cold). I remember just a month or two after splitting with the exAC, going to a panel talk on human trafficking – there is a handbook for would-be pimps on exactly which vulnerable girls to choose, how to seem like a protector, then pull back sharply, fostering confusion and dependence. The speaker said that people wonder why women being prostituted would ever stay, why don’t they run? The psychological hold on them is overwhelming, there is a system to creating that hold, and some men prefer a hold over a woman to a healthy relationship. I recognized the man I had been dating and it made my blood run cold.
Welcome to BR. Two decades is a long time. You sound empowered now!
Yes I was nice and passive and a doormat and got royally screwed over nothing less than I deserve.
Tulipia – You’re awfully hard on yourself. None of us “deserve” to be rotally screwed or, as Nat says, treated without love, care, trust, and respect, regardless of who we are or how we act, even ACs or women who let themselves be doormats. Loving yourself unconditionally means cutting yourself some slack and realizing once you knew better, you acted better.
Hi Carol
Thank you for the reminder about not being so hard on myself. I wrote the above in anger because I had a gut feeling things were off the boil and I just pssively went on with things and everything came out last night, I think I said I deserved it because I have read Baggage Reclaim for a long time now and should have acted differently. I am grateful to know that I will be okay and things won’t be like 2010 and 2011 where I thought I’d never get out of the black hole.
Dammit. I have an agenda.
While I was on my knees few years back(financially, emotionally etc – single parent blah blah), a ‘friend’ who was in a position to help, at no expense to them, couldn’t quite decide if I was worthy of support.
Cried silently to myself for a week. So, while I wish I didn’t care so much. I pretend I am on side when the reality is I can’t wait for the business to fail so I can laugh out loud to myself for 2 weeks!
I have another friend who is so patronising and annoying I am not sure how to get rid of her. You see, well, you may have noticed my low self esteem which thankfully has surfaced and I’m able to process and re-build confidence. Yet, all these people from my past have supported my low self esteem, like it almost works well for them that I passively accept the shit they throw my way because, until now, I took it sadly.
Thankfully, I’m at the ‘i am raging about this’ stage of development and I think I am about to unleash the dragon but not sure how its going to come out, thinking Bruce Lee.
Now I’ve confessed my agenda it doesn’t sound such a good idea after all. Think I’ll go buy a dress instead.
NINja – Jeet Kune Do am all for it too lol. During my recovery I met an older wiser lady at work. Every time someone p*****d her off and they were sat down in the staffroom she would bend over and shove her backside in their face. Not that I’m condoning it, but I think that was her way of unleashing her dragon! #laughter is the best medicine 🙂
NATALIE, YOU ARE JUST SO AWESOME !!! I JUST LOVE THIS 1 ” COMPRAMISING YOURSELF & HAPPINESS JUST TO FIT INTO SOMEONE ELSES WORLD” IS 1 OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD OF DATING TODAY !!! ITS WORTH GETTING INTO A RELATIONSHIP IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE YOURSELF !!! I DO BELIEVE THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN ME & MY NOW EX-HUSBAND THAT I JUST MET LAST NOV & MARRIED THIS PAST APRIL. THE RELATIONSHIP QUICKLY FIZZLED OUT AS FAST AS IT BEGAN, A WEEK AFTER WE WERE MARRIED IT BEGAN TO DETERIORATE AND FAIL. I TRIED HARD TO SAVE IT OLNY TO BECOME FRUSTRATED & OFTEN FOUND MYSELF YELLING JUST TO GET A POINT ACROSS TO HIM, I WAS TIRED OF TRYING TO MAKE IT WORK ALONE, I ASKED MY HUSBAND AT THE TIME WHAT HE WANTED TO DO WITH THE MARRIAGE & REPLYED HE WANTED TO SAVE IT . FOR SOMEONE WANTING TO SAVE IT SURE WAS AWFUL DISTANT FROM ME & STAYED OUT 3 NIGHTS IN A ROW WITH NO CONTACT WHAT SO EVER !!! I ENDED UP THROWING ALL HIS POSSESIONS IN THE GARBAGE & CHAGEING THE LOCKS. HE TRIED TO BRING THE STUFF BACK IN I REFUSED TO LET HIM BACK IN TO DO SO. I GUESS I COULD SAY ITS MY FAULT !!! ME BEING LONELY AT THE TIME I 1ST MET MY EX-HUSBAND HE SAW THAT IN ME & DECIDED TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT IN ME & KEPT PUSHING HIMSELF ON ME TO ACCEPT HIM IN MY LIFE WHICH WAS SCARY IN THE BEGINNING !!! I KNEW FROM THE START HE HAD A CRACK HABBIT ADDICTION & FEAR THE WORSE WOULD HAPPEN & IT DID !!! I FELL FOR HIS AMAZING MAGNITUDE CHARM, IT WAS SO OVER POWERING & I WAS JUST SUCKED IN AFTER A WHILE MONTHS LATER, I GUESS THE CHARM OVER POWERED THE CRACK HABBIT HE HAD, I JUST ENDED UP FALLING AT HIS MERCY BECAUSE HE MADE ME FELT LIKE A QUEEN !!! HE ASKED ME TO MARRY HIM 3 TIMES, I SAID YES I WOULD, NOW I WAS THINKING THIS GUY IS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE !!! & YES HE WAS !!! HE WAS JUST BEING NICE TO ME ALL BECAUSE HE JUST WANTED A PLACE TO LAY HIS HEAD, IT LATER CAUSED CONFLICT BETWEEN US BECAUSE HE WAS COMPRAMISING HIS TRUE SELF & FEELINGS FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT REAL !!! ALL THAT LIEING JUST FOR A PLACE TO LAY HIS HEAD A MISTAKE !! LATER HE RAN TO ALL HIS FRIENDS SO THEY WOULD FEEL SORRY FOR HIM WITH PITY, THEY ENDED UP TELLING HIM HE WAS WRONG. I ENDED UP ENDING THE RELATIONSHIP IN DIVORCE TO REGAIN MY SELF CONFIDENCE IN ME !!! I LEARNT MY LESSON !!!
CC, you said it in a nutshell. It takes TIIIIIME!
When you’ve cared so deeply for someone and all they did was mess over you it hurts so deeply you don’t know how you can ever move on and live your life differently without them. The comments you all have made have caused me to suddenly realize why I spent all those months online. Much of it was an attempt to ameliorate the pain caused by the exMM. It all makes sense now. I wanted the attention, the compliments on my looks and intelligence, all the superficial trappings in order to feel better about myself. I had totally relinquished the self-esteem I had because I had wanted his love so desperately, and all the time knowing this involvement was ill-fated and dangerous. So having the attention and positive reinforcement of all those guys, even though I was not meeting them was GREAT. I became addicted to online dating. BUT I was also avoiding interaction in the flesh by consistently choosing guys hundreds of miles away. I did not want a relationship, I was afraid to trust, didn’t want to experience any deep feelings because I could not take the chance of getting hurt and/or losing. I adored my father and was a daddy’s girl. He was an alcoholic but a very loving man. He died prematurely when I was 23-deep pain and loss. Shortly after his death, I had to leave an abusive first husband with our 18 month old daughter in tow-deep pain and loss. Then years later having been a single mom-not easy, for 16 years, I met my second husband who was all I could have ever asked for and more. Then he died prematurely partly due to ignoring his health in order to be the “be all and end all” for me-devastating loss, excruciating pain (even with being a very competent RN I couldn’t save him). So fast forward 6 yrs, and here comes Mr. MM. Many of you know about that. I really thought I was in love with the EUM/AC-but had to kick him to the curb after much heartache. Finally, now I’ve cut to the chase and stopped engaging in the non-productive activity of online. Just the other day a guy emailed me (I’m sure it was only because he saw I was deleted from the website and was curious) on the pretense of saying “Hi” after 3 months of my starting NC because he had a pregnant girlfriend and has since become a first time dad. I casually blew him off. He accused me of being “abrasive”, but I was not. That was his defense because I just wasn’t interested in talking. Had this been a few months ago, I might have agreed to an intimate moment. But, even though my need (sexual) is still there and flaming, I rebuffed him. It seems as though I’ve been through crap, although certainly none of the stuff a lot of you all have had to put up with. But I think sticking to NC was the hardest, because the other situations (death, evil husband) were situations that I had little control over. Freeing myself from the MM was within my control and I handled it really well, and the same for quitting online dating. I’ve proven to myself that I have developed a very strong sense of self-preservation and desire to be and do what’s best for me, mentally, emotionally, spiritually and physically. I did not intend to give my autobiography here, but CC, you uncovered , with your advice to Tired, Grizelda, and Victorious that TIME plays a huge part in healing wounds. Thank you for also helping me see to things I did not understand nor had they occurred to be before. I wish success to all BR women in conquering our demons and remembering that TIME IS ON OUR SIDE and long as we are still here on earth.
And, how could I neglect to mention that my dear, strong,inspirational Mom passed away in May after a long illness (Alzheimer’s). That was so huge that apparently my mind blocked out the memory but my emotions and the ensuing behavior did not.
NOW I understand!!! We have some kind of argument, and hey presto! A day or 2 later he’s ringing me when he’s on his way to a lads weekend away (this weekend), or to see his family (last weekend – when we were both meant to be going but this is another issue as I still haven’t actually met his family yet), or he’s tidying his house and won’t answer the phone/return my calls (also last weekend), or some other jolly (last month). He’d wanted to go by himself all along but couldn’t be honest and tell me! For 2 years I’ve been making excuses and apologies for this behaviour. He’d complained in the past that I didn’t consult him as to what day to see my family so he could come too. This time I consult him and he says just pick any day and if I can come I will. So he then arranges something else on that day so he “can’t” come. So much avoidance, and he says I’m the reason our relationship isn’t “progressing” -_-