What can be especially confusing is feeling that because you’ve been accommodating (read: people pleasing and stretching your yardstick), understanding (read: over-empathising, denying, rationalising, minimising, forgetting about you), forgiving (read: pressing the reset button, ignoring your own feelings etc, trying to be the exception, trying to change them) etc., that they ‘should’, if anything, make you exempt. It can feel as if everyone else is far more appreciated and they’re not even having to put up with what you do, leaving you fuming about the fairness of it all. Why do these people get their good side? What am I doing wrong?
You self-identify based on their treatment of you. Their behaviour then equals your worth. You can become convinced that you’re “not good enough”. Underlying beliefs about your perception of what you deserve are validated by continuing to 1) engage with this person and to 2) not see their problematic behaviour for what it is.
There are a couple of things at play here that are important to remember as they put what is going on outside of your relationship into context:
Image matters to them. They are curtailed by norms, restrictions, boundaries and laws and as a result, they not only run the risk of experiencing big consequences that could also result in exposure but there are too many factors to control. They feel and know that they are not experiencing boundaries and natural consequences with you and so they feel safe in continuing in and even escalating their behaviour.
Their seeming lack of control is baffling. They can appear very remorseful at times especially when you tell them to beat it or they appear to move on… but then they repeat the behaviour. It’s not that they cannot control what they do because at the end of the day, they do control themselves outside of your relationship but they also feel that they have to. They are very aware of…yep, their image and consequences.
It’s a mistake to assume that they are a “saint” with others and that they are “well behaved” and only targeting you. These people experience this person’s ‘game face’ and passive aggression. You will be too busy blaming you to see what’s going on or even to recognise how damn well inappropriate their behaviour is regardless of whoever the hell thinks that the sun shines out of their bottom!
People who have a public persona and that get dark and chopping behind the scenes, think that they’re good at concealing anger, resentment, frustration etc., and playing the game, but people are experiencing various degrees of their boundary busting behaviour, it just might be covert, e.g via obstruction, saying one thing, doing another, reneging, etc. — or they are expressed in different but still upsetting but potentially less risky ways.
It’s important to note that your perception of these ‘others’ is likely to be different to reality. They fall into a few camps:
They don’t like to let the left hand know what the right hand is doing so even if one hundred people would actually vouch for the problems you know about, they’d make sure that you don’t know about them or they’d twist the facts. In much the same way that you take responsibility for their feelings and behaviour, they use the same reasoning to avoid responsibility, insisting that they don’t behave this way with others – “I only act this way with you” or other guff like, “You bring this out in me”– and so insinuating or outright stating that you’re the problem (not true – they know that you don’t know their backstory or the full truth) but they fail to acknowledge that they behave this way with you because they know that they will not experience consequences [as they might with others] and that actually, they specifically choose people or recognise certain indicators that they feel gives the green light to be and do their worst.
If when they say or do something inappropriate, you withdraw (like going into a shell to protect you from the conflict, criticism and rejection storm) or you go into people pleasing mode, they know that they have an opening and after that, they just chip chip chip, chop chop chop away.
They don’t acknowledge that the reason why they bust your boundaries isn’t because you provoked it but because this is what they do and they’ve set this situation up. If you’re in a romantic relationship with them, they have a habit of choosing partners where they can behave similarly. If they’re a bully at work or in friendships, they exploit what they feel is a loophole.
They don’t acknowledge that actually, while you have your own end of things to address about boundaries, they may have systematically said and done things that have messed with your head, decimated your confidence, and basically robbed you of your strength to create the consequences.
You addressing your boundaries would not change who they are; it would rid you of them.
They also don’t acknowledge that they redirect past and present anger, frustration, resentment, fear etc at you that they haven’t been able to directly express. They have a bad day at work and because they can’t let rip verbally or get physical (because they want to keep their job and other potential repercussions), they create a drama with you so that they can release the feelings, knowing that there are little or no consequences. Another form of Dump and Charge Up.
These outside things (other people, work, things that annoy them etc) are not going to change/disappear and are also outside of your control, as is this person who is not treating you with the basics of care, trust and respect, never mind love.
All you’re doing by buying into this whole, “I provoke him/her into it” is offering a Get Out of Jail Free card and colluding with their distortion and avoidance of responsibility. You’re also hankering for the image rather than accepting the truth.
Persona is what a person puts out when they’re mindful of being watched or mindful of the consequences of showing their true self. Their character is what they get up to behind the scenes and when they don’t think that they’re going to be caught or that they’ll experience big consequences.
It doesn’t matter what they’re doing with these ‘others’. What matters is what they’re doing with you. Knowing that others receive equal or worse treatment will not make you feel better and if you do want to change how you feel and to step away from this toxic involvement, instead of looking for this person to change and to make you feel better about remaining, begin taking steps to build boundaries so that you can build enough confidence to protect and distance yourself.
You are not creating this person; it’s who they are.
Your thoughts?
A month can make a big difference. Check out my 30-day project, 30 Days To Healthy Boundaries.
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As always thank you Nat.
The situation with my bro is still on my mind albeit a lot less than before.
It brought up alot of stuff within me I’d tried to bury, I guess without dealing with it properly.
I spoke to my sister the other day and realised whatever past experiences I have had that made me freak out the way I did – it was still in response to intimidating and bullying behaviour. I stood up for myself. That was the start of a consequence for him.
I see replicas of this situation in past situations with people I have since cut out of my life. As he is my bro who I love dearly for his good parts I would never want to do that. But yes he has to experience consequences and I do have to distance myself.
He has to relate to me as an adult. As an equal and I have to show up as such. This will mean standing in my boundaried truth – whatever way that will manifest.
I don’t think it’s coincidence that I’m learning how to have boundaries with family members, romantic partners and friends at the moment.
I’m noticing that boundaries allow the right things in and the wrong things out as described by Cloud and Townsend in their book about boundaries. They describe it as a gate rather than a wall. Letting good in and negative out.
Perhaps I’m growing up in the most realist sense. I say this because boundaries are also about pesonal responsibility. When we learn to truly be responsible for ourselves we will learn to stand by us and not default back to thinking it’s us.
I’ve been in the mentality of what is it about me that made him react like that. Your’re post made me realise that yes I hsve shaky boundaries but he is him anyway.
My ex was him anyway.
My father was him anyway (Plus I was only 4 when he left! Not down to me!)
This blog helps is grow post by post and keeps us growing.
Natalie thank you so much for all your wise words. Since breaking away from my boundary buster your posts have been a massive help in articulating so much of what I have been going through. Years of escalating madness are now in the past, and I’m starting to heal and finally gain (regain?) my self worth. Your posts have been so helpful in this process, I just wanted to say a big thank you 🙂 xx
very helpful. I do keep in mind what others have said about this person because when I start thinking with any nostalgia, I think about what certain of these others have said. One old girlfriend/harem person said, “he can be really mean.” Another one who was in a group he directed said vigorously, “He’s got a massive ego and a massive temper.” Ouch! One woman said, “Oh that’s just X being X.” Huh?
So if I ever let a least little doubt enter my mind, any nostalgia,whatever I have these statements of reality to back up my knowledge.
It’s a little different with my brother, he almost caused a dangerous car accident. Enough said on that one. Moving on. Thank you Natalie!
Sounds like narcissistic traits to me, unfortunately, been through a decade of a dysfunctional pattern with someone like that. These people can only hook you in when you’re already down. And then they just use their manipulation and shadiness to keep you there so you stay put, while they go out and do whatever they want. They distort your perception of reality, that you’re not good enough, everything is your fault (when, in your gut, and just the overwhelming feeling something’s really ‘off’), you know it’s not true. But you can’t seem to really leave, or stay. It’s limbo-land and beyond frustrating. I always knew when he had someone else in his sight… If I dare brought up anything that wasn’t benefitting him, he’d slip out, blaming me, and wouldn’t hear from him for weeks, a month, few months. Mind you, this is an adult in his mid 30’s behaving this way.
My life was always a mess whenever he was in it. My family finally had an intervention with me, and I went cold turkey. Cut off all contact. Blocked him every which way. Prior to that, he was stalking me, thinking I was dating/sleeping w someone else because I kept blowing him off. I blew him off because I was tired of being treated poorly, and him appearing to treat everyone else around him with more care and consideration. It was all about him. His needs. While mine where never considered. I was very attracted to him… He wasn’t so hot or anything, it was just something about him that I couldn’t get enough of. But, when I looked around, And realized my life was put on pause and at a standstill, because of an unhealthy relationship… I needed to do whatever it took to get away. Bad habits are the hardest to break. It wasn’t easy, but I did it.
I also dealt with some underlying, old wounds from my marriage ending a year prior to meeting that asshat. I never dealt with all the negative feelings associated with my divorce and ex husband. I thought I did. It wasn’t until I started working with a great therapist (free, no less…. Talk about divine intervention.. ????), who told me I was suffering from PTSD. I was diagnosed right after my ex husband left (12 years ago) And thought that I got over it, moved on, etc., etc. Well, apparently not. It’s been affecting me for years. And dealing with someone exactly like the person mentioned in the post, it made matters so much worse. A nightmare at times. People close to me said it had “changed me as a person”. I’m recovering and moving on. Happily.
I don’t think we realize how our past, and unresolved emotional issues effect us, and lead us into making unhealthy choices concerning someone who we want to be our partner, Who is an unstable, neglectful, and ‘fill in the blanks’ partner.
Another perspective that is so simple, which helped me tremendously, when I finally was out of denial, and wanted it to stay that way… Is… Just because you like or love his ways, his laugh, his smell, he’s funny, smart, fun to be around, great at… Whatever; is he a great partner to me (you)? Was he consistent and stable with me? Protect me? Make me feel cherished? Loved? No. No, he did not. Not consistently. I should know and feel it, in my heart, soul, in my being, that my partner has my back. Is commited and loving. That’s what matters. No decent, confident human being, who truly cares about people, in general, and has a conscience, would never treat a woman, or another human being with such disregard, playing mind games, being self-centered to the core, cheating, lying, blowing hot/cold… Disrespectful. I had enough of that. I forgave myself for treating myself with such little regard, and moved on. It’s way better to be alone, take care of yourself, and live in peace, than to ever deal with drama a chaos like that. It’s self-punishment. Instead of trying to find a man, I got busy finding out who I was again, and making new friends. It’s important to get out and just be around your girlfriends… I had to re-connect w a lot of lost friendships.
Anyway, I didn’t expect my post to be so long! Thanks for reading, and best of luck to anyone dealing with a similar situation. xo
Nice post. yes, the choppers are the worst- we must dig deep to find why we got so attached and that was the hardest for me. I was not even all that attacked to mine, I broke up with him, but it has taken a long time to get over those sorts of mind games and horridness.
sorry, ‘attracted’ not
attacked! haha
Your words are so close to my situation that they made me cry. I too am rebuilding myself. Thank you.
Demke…Of al the posts etc…yours spoke volumes to me….it’s my exact story/feelings….i just cut contact yesterday so I am in a difficult spot…I hope I can get where you are….
Demke, everything you said is what I am going through. I’m separated from my narcissistic husband and he is making half efforts to say he will change. I’m dubious but hopeful and stuck in limbo and indecision. Any advice on how to move from stuck?
This is so eerily familiar, it just freaks me out. The thing with my situation (and maybe yours) is that everything became so turned around (he used to be a lawyer) that I started believing that I was mean and controlling and all the other things he threw at me. He created this whole narrative about how I tore him down repeatedly and that he’d never in his life been in a relationship with someone so disrespectful. He was never treated so badly. Etc. Meanwhile, I’m walking on eggshells in my own place because I never know what I’m going to say that will set him off. When he’d laugh at a joke, I’d be relieved because I didn’t have to apologize. He would tell me my humor was borderline abusive. He could escalate something like me asking him to shut off a light into an all-out war. His favorite thing to do was walk out in the middle of a fight, saying “I can’t do this again. We fight everyday. You are toxic.” And I’d be left wondering “Am I?” And I’d start getting so anxious, literally sick over it, and call and text repeatedly to explain myself or defend myself when, duh, I didn’t do anything wrong in the first place.
Exhausting. I don’t know why I want him still. We’ve broken up and made up and broken up a million times. I finally got him out of my life and heart for six weeks at the end of the summer and he weaseled back in during a weak moment for me. He owned up to all his bad behavior, told me he had a revelation about where his anger was coming from, he’d do whatever I wanted to fix this, etc.
I said go to therapy, make some real life plans, pay down your debt, address issues you’ve been avoiding for years. He agreed to it all. And I said he could reach out to me again after he’d accomplished some things and a positive direction was established. He agreed. I was stunned. And then, damn it, I got hopeful. Like, he really figured it out this time and he’s going to work on it and it’s going to be different now!
Are you laughing at me? Because you should be. That was pathetic of me. But not as pathetic as me thinking I was strong enough to meet up with him after 7 weeks and all these new promises. He was excited to meet up with me. I was nervous as hell. He was running late and I was drinking to calm my nerves. Hmmm. Can you guess how this turned out?
So, my anger bubbled to the surface and I started to say things to let him know that I’d started to move on. He realized things were going downhill fast so he left. And in my drunken fury, I saw this not as a way to deescalate the situation. I saw it as “he’s walking out on me again!” And I lost my marbles. I called him and left the nastiest voicemails, I said every hurtful thing I could think of, I hit below the belt. I was out of my mind with fury and fueled by booze. It was awful. Honestly, I don’t remember much of what I said.
After that, tables turned. I tried to explain that I shouldn’t have had anything to drink but clearly I’m still quite angry with what he’d done and how our relationship was. I apologized for being drunk and stupid and for my lashing out on his voicemail. No dice. He refused to speak to me or see me again. Now I was back to being the one full of anxiety, begging him to accept my apology. . .
That night was during the first week of October. I allowed myself to let this go on and on until last Friday. Yes, seriously. There are a number of other factors here, including job issues, family health problems, etc and the fact that I’m just an overly emotional person. But I was clinging to him. Every breadcrumb was just enough to keep me hanging on. And he took all my power away. Told me that his new therapist and “everyone” (don’t know who that could be besides his mom and coworkers, I’d never met any of his friends) said that I was controlling him. That I had broken him down and that I had stomped on his self-esteem so badly that he couldn’t even accept anything positive in his life now. Because of me. Because I got angry and said some nasty things on his voicemail. Oh, how many times did he bring those up? “Would you like me to forward these voicemails to you?” I’m pissed at myself for giving him that ammunition but I did it. I can’t take it back. And he won’t let it go.
So fine. As of Friday, November 28th I went NC. But, I admit, I went out on a bad note. I left him some desperate, pleading VMs. And for the first time he didn’t even respond. Until. . .
yesterday. And I answered the phone because I am stupid. Of course nothing changed. This was a power trip at my expense. I’m now back to square one with NC, today being day one. Again.
Sorry for the long note. Getting this out is so helpful, even if nobody reads it or responds.
I wish for peace and healing hearts for all of us.
Oh… And big squeezy hugs and thanks to NML for her eye-opening, self-esteem boosting, asshat repellent blogs! Without a doubt, this site has helped me in so many ways! And had a huge part in kicking my lousy asshat to the curb, finally! 🙂
What a great post Natalie. Chop chop chop chop day after day until it dawned on me that my ex was slowly pushing me towards suicide. It became clear one day when I was begging him to listen to me about something, and I said something like ‘do I have to be dead for you to actually take notice of how much pain I am in” and he twisted it later in “it was very wrong of you to blackmail me into getting back together with you otherwise you’ll commit suicide”. … But that’s not what I had said … What a horrible period in my life. How lucky I am to have gotten out of that situation. V.
Me again. I have skipped a few passages and only wrote the end result in my comment above, but wanting to make a better connection to your post and also after reading Demke’s comment I wanted to add: it *is* a question of image. As soon as he ‘got me’, he emotionally checked out of the relationship, because he needed now to concentrate on ‘more important’ things, like his career. Everytime something went wrong in his job or social connections to that end, he dumped on me. Then at some point he found this ‘fabulous’ place where he earned an incredible amount of money and got himself into a social circle where the word ‘snob’ is not enough to describe their attitude, and I became to him more and more ugly, poor, unable to behave properly in public, boring etc. And finally depressed (this one for real). He wanted to get rid of me for a new girlfriend that would fit his new image of successful person, but the good boy that he was he couldn’t break up with me, could he. So he kept undermining me, openly insulting me towards the end, until the smooth suggestion of suicide. There I collapsed completely and finally took a step backwards and started giving up on him for real.
There was no love between us. He never ever ever loved me or cared about me for one moment. It was all in my head. Or, better said, all the love was mine – well I took it back. V.
@V; I get this feeling; there is nothing worse than being in a situation where you cannot get through to a person with words, with threats, with humor, with tears, with saying you’re leaving (at which point sometimes they pull back long enough to pull you back into the game. The next day nothing has changed). That feeling of desperation is exactly why narcs drive you insane. They are unresponsive to normal human interaction when they are cornered in some way. Intimate relationships corner them.
My ex-AC was classic narc. Not a lot of friends from the past, all very recent. Lots of ambiguous behavior with people, indicating always that he was what he was not, mis-representing – he was all facade. Intimate life exposes them, inconsistencies start to creep in. The drip feed of truth starts. You realize you cannot trust your own senses. Sadly it takes a while for your heart to catch up – in that middle period, you lose your mind.
The best part; everyone told me he was the nicest guy ever. No one said this about me (And I dont mind that) – yet, all those people are still my friends, and I dont think they are his friends. What I mean is – I am real, friends see me as a real person, as me. He was only just mr nice guy since he was only interested in managing his facade. In private he was so cold and callous it would take your breath away, it often did mine, it was a punch straight to the gut.
It makes me very sad. I think that the scars of that relationship havent left me. I think the classic sign of gas lighting is just that; if you feel like talking with someone regularly makes you think that dying is a better alternative and that person is just sitting there fine and dandy with that outcome AND SO ARE YOU — well, what more is there to say?
@Suki. So very true, there is no way whatsoever that you can get through them. Also, I have found that in my case the more I tried to break the glass wall that divided us, the more he distanced himself, regardless of the fact that I would offer a romantic dinner or a fight. It was just… everything I did was wronger and wronger.
What was also very disturbing was that when I became desperate, or sometimes very angry, he would look at me with curiosity, and with an expectant look of let’s see what she’s going to do now. And sometimes he would just plain laugh at me when I screamed at him I can’t take it anymore. That was awful.
Yes I still bear the scars of that relationship too, but you know what, in the old days it was not only conceivable but also socially accepted that when your marriage broke up you would be vulnerable, very emotionally distressed, that your life would come to a halt for a while, that you needed some support, and so on. Just because I was not his wife it doesn’t make it less catastrophic an event. I gave myself permission to behave like I had gone through a divorce, and let myself fully feel the pain and loneliness, and the anger too. It takes a while, but why shouldn’t it? My spiritual marriage to that person broke. I behave like the divorcee that I feel I am, I try to slowly put together the pieces of my life that are left, I don’t talk about my pain with people who don’t understand it but certainly don’t hide it either. And I have no desire whatsoever to start again with somebody else.
What a sad post I have written. I didn’t mean for it to come out this way but there it is. V.
like what in the hell is wrong with most men anymore? its like they just dont give a damn and they dont care who they hurt.
shallow selfish self centered narcs.
V and Suki,
After reading your comments, I’m left shaking my head. After reading what everyone here is writing I continue to react in disbelief. Is it becoming acceptable for people to be such pricks? Reading how this men treated you is horrifying.
After just recently exchanging comments with Sofia on the previous post, I’d wondered if BGE really *IS* this most wonderful Best Guy Ever, just NOT FOR ME. Maybe he is ‘nice’ (ughh), caring, thoughtful, responsive to EVERYONE EXCEPT ME. Because that is what I saw at the end. And then I read about how awful you were both treated and can’t believe that people ‘have that in them’. But they do. But you both appear so strong, intelligent, thoughtful, caring, that you have it ‘together’ and yet some jerks were able to drag you down so low.
And V you wrote, “There was no love between us. He never ever ever loved me or cared about me for one moment. It was all in my head. Or, better said, all the love was mine – well I took it back”. Those words sting. I think the same thing, but never ‘took it back’ but rather just left it for dead.
And Suki, your words, “Intimate life exposes them, inconsistencies start to creep in. The drip feed of truth starts. You realize you cannot trust your own senses. Sadly it takes a while for your heart to catch up – in that middle period, you lose your mind.” My heart has not caught up, not yet. I had never sought the help of a therapist until last year. I actually asked her if she thought THAT I HAD BPD. I was SO convinced that something must be terribly wrong with me. She said NO.
So you have both been able to see past the image management/ impression management. Trying to recover from this kind of treatment has been excruciating. And then part of me thinks…Well, he didn’t actually DO anything to me. Because in his being so PA, it’s more like his NOT DOING, dismissing, and disconnecting are the tactics that destroyed me. So he didn’t actually DO anything to me. His image remains clean: BGE.
These words of Natalie’s sent chills: “People who have experienced the same treatment as you that you are unaware of because they’re edited out of this person’s history and so you don’t know of their existence, or they’ve been silenced.” What better way to manage a nice guy image…
Hey Say Something, although I do feel for you and most certainly have went through some similar stage myself, I want to vomit every time I see you still using the acronym Bisexual Group of Elves, so I am leaving the correspondence to you to people who are more patient than I am at this particular time of my life. Very best wishes anyway, V.
Me, too!
Bacon Grease Extravaganza
“I actually asked her if she thought THAT I HAD BPD.” Same.
Wow. This is making me feel better and worse at once.
And this: “Because in his being so PA, it’s more like his NOT DOING, dismissing, and disconnecting are the tactics that destroyed me. So he didn’t actually DO anything to me.”
Wow again. We could be speaking about the same guy. The saint. The do-gooder. For everyone else.
Be well, Say Something.
V, I love this, “all the love was mine – well I took it back.” And have been giving it to myself to heal the wounds finally for the first time in my life and start loving myself.
I can relate to many stories here and the post itself about the nice image. It was very important for him to keep the image of a good boy, a dependable employee, an obedient son.
It’s an achievement to survive the trauma and eventually thrive. We look back and think, “I have survived this. I am so much better (even if with some setbacks and issues) and stronger. I know my direction and goals now. I know who I am. I am proud I have survived. I am a survivor of this traumatic bond and a damaging relationship and from now on my life will only start getting better and better. I value myself, my happiness and peace. And I DO KNOW BETTER NOW. Myself and others.” Feels good. It took a long time but I can say finally I survived. Yes, still work to be done but the major part is over. Deep exhale, stretch and smile….:)
I’m not a shrink but I was a medical writer for 15 years, and I edited a medical magazine after that. Whenever I wrote about diagnostics, especially with mental illnesses, I would check at least 8 or 10 legitimate sources for the symptoms and try my hardest not to have any of the doctors on my advisory board slap me upside the head when I got a symptom wrong or made a wrong assumption about someone I was writing about. Borderline and Narcissistic personality disorders are very similar, but the Narcissist is more dangerous because of their superb sense of charm, and of course picking the right victim. They have no emotions so they observe “normal people” so they know how to act and charm.
It took me years of daily journaling, circling repeated phrases and words like “actions don’t match words, never is wrong, has to be in control, lies constantly and whenever she was caught in a lie and cornered, she’d get crazy theatrical and start saying she had heart palpitations, a migraine coming on and anything else that would change the subject.
She was so predicable.
Phase One: Seduce and pledge her undying love and flatter bomb/future fake.
Phase Two: Once she hears the words I love you said back to her, she has won the first phase and begins to pull back. What once were loaves are now crumbs. Do not ask what happened or demand loaves. Or Else.
Phase Three: She has found a new person, AKA supply of ego stroking and lovey dovey bullshit flattery, and she dumps you flat. NC. It’s your fault. You broke her heart.
Yep it’s all your fault she cheated and lied and kept repeating steps one, two and three as many times as you would fall for it. When I started getting wise to her she could sense it and disappeared off the face of the earth for a month.
I started Googling clumps from my journals, with three or four of her crazy behaviors, then I’d add more, until one bright day I ran into a site about “surviving Narcissistic Abuse.”
I read the first 10 stories and I was elated that what my crazy ex had was Narcissistic Personality Disorder, mixed with antisocial/sociopath tendencies, and side of passive aggression.
I wasn’t going crazy, she was engineering my slow descent into insanity and she was enjoying it. It’s a symptom, for God’s sake!
Once I figured her out and realized how dangerous she was to me, I wrote and told her she may think she won the war but I left with everything I came in with: a higher power, genuine emotions, compassion, trust, and the ability to love.
And all she has is a lizard brain and a jones for a new victim to emotionally rape. They have no emotions or love inside them so they try to suck it out of willing codependents, like I was.
By the time I finished telling her off and calling her a few choice names, I don’t worry about her coming back and trying anything again. I left her thinking I was psychotic, which was untrue but she doesn’t have to know that. 🙂
Narcissists love the Internet because it’s a huge pool of potential victims for these insane, heartless men and woman to cast their nets into.
Now that I know why I had amnesia, felt foggy headed and like I might be getting Altzheimer’s, I know that she actually drove me crazy. More than once, spanning 15 years. Ugh.
If you are curious about Narcissist Emotional Abuse, and think you may have been through it, just keep Googling till you find a link that starts with the word “After…” I believe It’s Nat’s policy not to have readers link to outside sources, so I don’t want to abuse her hospitality.
It’s not easy to heal but it feels so good knowing how she managed to do all the shit she did to me. She was batshit crazy and she found a goodhearted, trusting woman in me. She knew I was patient, but didn’t realize I had a temper with a very long fuse that she lit last year.
>>KABOOM!<<
Wow this is right on time! I always had these feelings like why am I not enough for my boyfriend (now EX) at the time to treat me decent like he seemed to treat everyone else better than me; from the old lady down the road to the dog; his mates, everyone seemed to get the best version of him whilst I struggled with trying to deal with his dishonest & disrespectful behaviour that no one else seen but me. I would try and do everything for him from dinner every single night (not once did he surprise & Cook), Washing, cleaning and even the mowing so that when he returned home from working away he could just relax. He was this great guy for a few years to the point where we bought a house together to him completely disrespecting me over time. Lying about things id ask him about (I usually already knew the truth), not telling me things and me finding out second hand from his friends, flirting with other women in front of me, choosing catching up with mates over my award nights, Drinking heavily whilst working away & spending his away nights drinking at the pub even though he’s meant to be working away to save money, taking drugs, Deciding to go out clubbing and not coming home or even contacting me till the next day (this happened multiple times and also whilst working away). He didn’t give me any reason to trust him through his actions & I also had that Gut Instinct that he was definitely cheating on me. He would always verbally apologise but never follow through with action. It got to the point where I had to leave him after another one of his stints of disappearing in town one night (I even informed him over the phone that he can phone me to pick him up at any time but if he cant show me enough respect to come home by daylight then I’m done) & just like that I didn’t hear from him until late morning so he had once again proved that he could not change his ways and have respect for me. Just like that I was DONE, absolutely FED UP with his childish disrespectful ways & I thought if I stay here its only going to get worse and ill waste my best years with someone who cannot value me or what I do for him! Its funny because even to this day he blames me for all of his above actions, he uses the fact that I used to bring my dogs inside the house (& now & again they would leave foot prints inside as their medium sized dogs) to state that I was messy and over the top with the dogs so he could not cope with this so he behaved in the above way – how ridiculous, have you ever heard of so much rubbish?. I should also mention not once did he clean the house – it was always me doing that too. I guess this is the only thing that he can hold against me and he’s using it to Justify HIS ACTIONS. I intend on going no contact with him and I was no contact with him for some time but I’ve had to liaise with him in relation to sorting our house out which has proved to be difficult. He’s the guy that goes around stating I’m crazy and the one that wants everyone to have the picture perfect image of himself. I know in time that the people that get close to him after me are eventually going to have to deal with his shitty behaviour – its just time. I’ve bought all of your books Nat and they arrived this week so this is my chance to ensure No contact sticks with this clown; it’s a long tricky road but it would have been harder staying with this fool then getting out. Thanks to this amazing blog for helping me realise that I did the right thing its just going to take time to heal x
Oh wow, that drove me MAD about my ex! I felt so isolated because everyone thought he was just SOO nice and cool and sweet and mild-mannered and fun and charming while my experience living with him was that although he was all of those things *at times*, he was an absolute NIGHTMARE the REST of the time, so of course it must be all in my head or something *I* am doing, right? It took me until very recently to finally figure out that busting boundaries and consuming and sucking up everything he can possibly avail himself of is just what he does. And so I left. At last!
He had always appeared nearly devoid of consequential reasoning skills to me, but now that I read this post I finally connected the dots that he is keenly aware that his behaviour does indeed have consequences…with the right people, and accordingly is skillful in image management…while I just spent a solid 30% of the entire time I have existed allowing him to treat me egregiously with NO real consequences!
“You addressing your boundaries would not change who they are; it would rid you of them.“ Yes. Exactly.
I’m in shock. Everything that’s been written here and discussed is what I’ve experienced for the last 5 years.
I couldn’t understand it before but this describes what went on and what he continues to do with someone else.
It’s taking me a long time to recover from knowing him. Other people don’t seem to get it as they only see the charming side for the most part.
I really needed to read this right now in my life. Thank you all very much!
Nat you do so much good.
As an artist, I see so many skilled people with crummy or no values. I’ve also met some people with beautiful art and nasty souls. Nothing makes me more nauseatingly ill than to hear someone talk of an artists’ brilliance as if it’s one and the same as their soul. You are ripe to find yourself fallen very low if you believe in this kind of hype. Peoples’ actions around the clock in and with all walks of life determine their character. If you worship a human based on their persona, you are giving up all your conscious energy to a lie. It will leave you empty and dry.
“Peoples’ actions around the clock in and with all walks of life determine their character. If you worship a human based on their persona, you are giving up all your conscious energy to a lie. It will leave you empty and dry.” So true. Well said.
Wow this is right on time! I always had these feelings like why am I not enough for my boyfriend (now EX) at the time to treat me decent like he seemed to treat everyone else better than me; from the old lady down the road to the dog; his mates, everyone seemed to get the best version of him whilst I struggled with trying to deal with his dishonest & disrespectful behaviour that no one else seen but me. I would try and do everything for him from dinner every single night (not once did he surprise & Cook), Washing, cleaning and even the mowing so that when he returned home from working away he could just relax. He was this great guy for a few years to the point where we bought a house together to him completely disrespecting me over time. Lying about things id ask him about (I usually already knew the truth), not telling me things and me finding out second hand from his friends, flirting with other women in front of me, choosing catching up with mates over my award nights, Drinking heavily whilst working away & spending his away nights drinking at the pub even though he’s meant to be working away to save money, taking drugs, Deciding to go out clubbing and not coming home or even contacting me till the next day (this happened multiple times and also whilst working away). He didn’t give me any reason to trust him through his actions & I also had that Gut Instinct that he was definitely cheating on me. He would always verbally apologise but never follow through with action. It got to the point where I had to leave him after another one of his stints of disappearing in town one night (I even informed him over the phone that he can phone me to pick him up at any time but if he cant show me enough respect to come home by daylight then I’m done) & just like that I didn’t hear from him until late morning so he had once again proved that he could not change his ways and have respect for me. Just like that I was DONE, absolutely FED UP with his childish disrespectful ways & I thought if I stay here its only going to get worse and ill waste my best years with someone who cannot value me or what I do for him! Its funny because even to this day he blames me for all of his above actions, he uses the fact that I used to bring my dogs inside the house (& now & again they would leave foot prints inside as their medium sized dogs) to state that I was messy and over the top with the dogs so he could not cope with this so he behaved in the above way – how ridiculous, have you ever heard of so much rubbish?. I should also mention not once did he clean the house – it was always me doing that too. I guess this is the only thing that he can hold against me and he’s using it to Justify HIS ACTIONS. I intend on going no contact with him and I was no contact with him for some time but I’ve had to liaise with him in relation to sorting our house out which has proved to be difficult. He’s the guy that goes around stating I’m crazy and the one that wants everyone to have the picture perfect image of himself. I know in time that the people that get close to him after me are eventually going to have to deal with his shitty behaviour – its just time. I’ve bought all of your books Nat and they arrived this week so this is my chance to ensure No contact sticks with this clown; it’s a long tricky road but it would have been harder staying with this fool then getting out. Thanks to this amazing blog for helping me realise that I did the right thing its just going to take time to heal x
I honestly believe, after everything I’ve been through, and my experiences, we are punishing ourselves for giving these kind of people, who are undeserving of our time and energy, the time of day. We don’t have to endure the pain and drama. We don’t have to try to figure them out, or wonder what they’re up to. That won’t do us any good. It will just keep us stuck. And that’s not where we’re supposed to be. The more we try to stay and keep the dysfunction alive, the more pain we bring on ourselves, and to those around us. Let them have whatever “image” they want… And show what they want to whoever. They’re not “whole” or stable. And they project that on to us. And we project that on to whoever else is close to us. It’s in our performance at work, it’s in our attitudes, they way we live our lives and carry ourselves. If you don’t believe that, you’re in denial. Our job is to be aware of what’s going on with us, and the people who actually do care about us. And be responsible about it. It’s not our job to chase someone who’s treating us badly. Let them leave. And leave them alone. You can obsess and go on and on, with all the stories. I know it helps, to a degree. But at some point, we need to fully grasp and understand the negative effects of holding on and engaging w them has caused us. Learn to grieve and let go of whatever hopes and fantasies you’ve had of having a ‘normal’ life w this person. Not happening. And in the end (cause it will most definitely end), all you’ll have left is a bruised ego, lots of regret, and lots of gray hair. Lol. If it’s causing you pain, do whatever is necessary to let go. Cut contact. Make the firm decision to be done, regardless of who walked first, and make a promise to yourself, that you will commit to saving your own life and making you healthier and happier, Every single day until they become a fleeting thought, once in awhile. And it will most definitely happen…
Exactly, Demke. One morning it hit me that all the pain I was feeling was actually for myself and not for him. I realized I was crying and feeling deep sadness because I didn’t have the courage to save myself from being ignored, used and abused. All I had to do was simply walk away, but it was impossible until I stopped worrying about what I imagined his pain would be like (probably next to nothing) and started worrying about what I was doing to myself.
Only then was I finally able to stop the insanity.
The worst part was, I knew exactly what he was like before I got involved. He even told me that he doesn’t know how to love, that he had hurt many women throughout the years, and that he feels bad but can’t help himself. And of course, what did I do? Jumped right in and hoped and prayed I would be the one to change/save him. On the positive side, I have learned so much about myself and my past and have made many positive changes in other areas of my life as well, so I am grateful I went through it all.
Demke, I could have written what you wrote. I have started asking this question myself recently (and am glad I am at this point), “Wow, didn’t I waste enough energy already on him, going round and round in circles, trying to figure out who he is, a Narcissist, Psycopath, EA, cheater, a good guy but not for me, etc etc?” I feel so exhausted at times that he still occupies my thoughts. It takes so much time and energy to process all of it. I have never in my life had a relationship and a breakup like this. My personality changed, some for the better, but some for the worse. I feel beaten up and my self-esteem is still pretty low. Work performance suffered and my anxieties are high. I developed social anxiety and also shy away from even a potential of meeting someone. My health has been affected too. My job is to heal and get better. Also, I have to make an effort to eliminate deciphering him and what happened in the relationship. Nearing two years after the breakup (January), I am getting very close to erase him from my mind and consciously continue doing so. I know the pain, as I discussed before, will remain, and the remnants of it will always stay with me because of the loss that happened during that relationship. Not because of him. I need to consciously eliminate him out of my thoughts. The circles of thinking of who he really was are making me stuck. I am very tired of it and this processing is taking the focus away from my life. The truth is that this kind of people exist. I had not known about it (but heard from others) that these people who damage your life permanently exist. I refuse to believe he damaged my life for good. I accept it has been changed and affected for good, but it’s in my control to get myself back together, glue up, stitch up, and reemerge with a new life. It’s hard but I am working on it. Quite incredible how a human being can have such impact on one’s person life. And we are here, from what I read and observe, are intelligent and kind women here, not teenagers. We had seen lots before them, but this person is unlike anything else. It’s true we will never be the same but it’s in our power and benefit to pick ourselves up, eliminate them from our thoughts and continue doing so every time they pop up, instead of ruminating. We have one life to live. We are not getting younger. I am already sickened to think how much time I wasted on him. Enough.
Demke:
That was probably the best advice I have ever heard. I am so happy to have found this site and you ladies. I have had my AC/EUM in my life for almost 5 years. The amount of wasted energy I have exsponged is ridiculous. The people I have hurt along the way, the hours I have time I can’t get back thinking about how I could have changed things, how if he just could see what he was missing, he would miraculously change into the person I wanted him to be. Oh Please! If I had to make a list of the times he actually made an effort to show me that he thought I was any kind of a priority, I would only need a post-it. This blog has given me so much strength and inspiration I can’t even tell you. The stories I have read and all the wonderful ways you ladies have come out the other side have really been just a therapist to me.
Demke – thank you again for that great post. I am 3 weeks NC today! I have gained such perspective in that short time and I know that I am going to be okay. The pain was awful when it ended (of course, he ended it), I thought I would never make it through. But I found BR and I know realize that he did me the biggest favor of all. I know there will come a day when my AC will be a fleeting thought. And I welcome that with open arms!
Thank you Nat for this website and wonderful inspiring words.
This article is spot on. I spent all my time wondering why he treated everyone else different. And I still do when I’m at a low point. It so damaging to my soul and well-being. Every day I write in my journal INDIFFERENCE, as it gives me my power back. It doesn’t matter who he is with, or what he does, or if he treats everyone better than me….he’s no longer a part of my life. INDIFFERENCE. It truly is a powerful word for me.
Rewind, this time will pass. Indifference really is key, as you said. You can only reach that point through no contact I think but it is so worth it.
I used to feel an actual stab of pain, seeing the object of my affections being “Mr Wonderful” to everyone else while he treated me like a disease he was afraid of catching.
Not any more. It’s taken a year or slightly longer for me to feel indifferent towards him. The thought of him no longer causes me pain. I still come to Nat’s site and read her words to remind me never to let this happen to myself again.
And I like to occasionally talk to other people who are going through this, just to let them know that the advice Nat gives works. You will get over this and when you do, you’ll know there’s no going back.
Best of luck to you and everyone else.
Thanks. I think the hardest part for me is when I see him getting accolades for being “so great,” and all the accolades from women that haven’t uncovered the mask. It makes me angry that he gets away with it….and always will. There is a part of me that just wants him to get what is due him. While he is out portraying that he is saving the world, he is also sending me text asking how my “beautiful cunt” is doing. Really??? But then again, I need to just go back to my indifference and not worry about whether people have seen what’s behind his mask. It just doesn’t matter…at least in my world.
I think there’s so many emotions flying around, and thoughts, and blaming ourselves, that’s what actually makes it difficult to move on, I don’t believe it’s about the actual ‘person’ we need to let go off (cause think about… Really, think about what they look like on paper, taking the emotion out of it… Like Nat would say, “they’re just not that special” (and they know it, lol)). It’s all of the emotions, blame, guilt, anger and sadness associated with the relationship… And whatever other underlying past negative experiences that are buried deep within us. And we’re putting the burden of that on our shoulders… And it’s a heavy load to be carrying… For anyone. And we can’t complain about people treating us poorly, more consistently than not, if we’re not even taking care of ourselves. Nat has many blogs preaching… To take the focus off of them and back on to us. Why don’t we “lather, rinse, and repeat” that simple concept? Because that is where the solution is to the insanity of it.
Hey, Ted Bundy was intelligent, handsome, charismatic…. Nice to everyone around him. What was he doing when no one was watching? Now, do you think it would be possible to change someone like him? Lol. I think not! What would you ladies think if there was a woman in his life that forgave him and still pined over him, sacrificing her life for him? Still obsessing over him… ?
I’m sure these guys were great in certain ways, funny, smart, had passions, etc., etc. that’s not what matters. It’s all ‘external’ qualities… That are likeable, but, BUT…. What the hell is it doing for you? He can make you laugh, and drive you crazy? Treat others great, and you poorly? Makes sure his pets are fed, his bills are paid, but you’re sitting there like, ‘umm… What about me over here?’ (Crumbs)
So, what is so consistently wonderful and amazing about this one person who you’re taking all the blame for?
Mine was a rock star in the bedroom. (That was my hook), He was funny, intelligent, a Harley-riding, bad boy, musician who came off as confident. From the outside, would like like I struck gold. Behind closed doors, a very different “image”. Self-medicating, negative, inconsiderate, lying, cheating, manipulative human being. Sure, women were always around him. These people know what draws people in, they have a hard time keeping them though, without conflict, because I know for my ex, he wasn’t a happy person. He was miserable. And I became miserable. So much negativity… The cheating, omg.. The begging for forgiveness, just to turn around and throw me back down again. All about him. Whatever negative traits he had… They started to project on to me. I started drinking (that was a first for me), I started sleeping around. I started becoming ‘bad’. That wasn’t ‘me’.
We cannot hide that from people close to us. We may think we seem ‘okay’ on the outside, people close to us, know something isn’t right. We are putting ourselves through our own hell, no one else. Yes, ‘he’ or ‘she’ may have messed with us, big time, get us confused and blaming ourselves because, hey, sometimes they’re great, but behind closed doors and majority of the time, not so great to us. And that’s their problem, not ours. Our problem is not taking responsibility for ourselves, for not seeking help and understanding why we are blaming and obsessing and allowing mistreatment to continue. Learn why you are ‘stuck’ and punishing yourself. Learn how to trust yourself and know it’s way ‘off’.
And what’s crazy… Is how intelligent, ‘good’ hearted, and generous you ladies really are. I browse and read through a lot of your posts… I’ve been a BR reader for about 6 years. I feel your pain, I’ve been there.
The last NC effort, I gave myself 3 months NC. No crack in the door. For ME. My sanity. My healing. Have I tried and caved in many, many, many times? Absofrighenlutely. I let go completely when I learned and understood why I stayed. I got the right help… Leading to truth and insight. And my life has completely turned around. Positive people are showing up in my life constantly. My confidence, stronger than ever. My relationship w my family has changed, people at work. The black cloud has been lifted.
Don’t let anyone dim your light, people around you need your light. I know it may sound all hokey, …give you 90 days of NC (I call it 90 days of courage). You made how long about this ridiculous person? I think you owe yourself 90 days of freedom, healing… And make it all about you. It’s a YOU vacation. Kick fear of the outcome to the curb.
I just got a call for a job interview as I’m typing this. My 2nd one today. :).
Get away from that black cloud in your life, let the light in, and watch your life start to change for the better. You have to WANT it though :). xoxo
Demke, thank you for this post too. Amen to everything. Brilliant. Motivating and uplifting! Thank you! Good luck on your job interview. I have just had two. I am on the roll. My life is changing as we speak!
I have been reading BR since February-March 2014 and too am amazed at the community here. Intelligent, caring, spiritual, loving, kind people. So supportive, forgiving, accepting. Why can’t we be like that to ourselves? We beat up ourselves for something that did not come true (luckily).
Anyway, Demke, V, Suki, and many others said it very well. I will add from my perspective and I said it before: our happiness, sense of belonginess and purpose, or even misery, should never be in the hands of any one person or other persons. Yes, people affect us, but they should never decide how we live. Many of us here are prisoners of the past because of what happened and can’t let go. It is our hurt ego, broken dreams, and hopes. The realization that a half of life or more is already gone. The realization of our mortality and time speeding up. It’s not those people we are grieving. It’s our fears, insecurities, old wounds. We feel vulnerable and abandoned. It’s the quintessential quest for our purpose and meaning as humanity. We seek answers in other people because it’s “easier” to understand and control. But it’s not there. The answer to our internal peace can never be found in other people. The temporary, seemingly found place of happiness and love in one person is volatile. It will end too. We know it’s not the answer. We have to focus on our lives and our own understanding of the meaning in our lives not tied to what other people can do for us. It is a long philosophical/theological discussion. The bottom line has been brilliantly repeated several times already here in the post and in the comments. Take care of you first and things will follow in the right direction. For spiritual people out there, it’s another journey. But the point is that there is no happiness and love to be found within another human being. Once we realize and comprehend it we are free.
@Demke, that was me too. I started lying (I’m one of those people who chronically – even when it’s not to my benefit – tells the truth) and sleeping around. I felt like I had to do it ‘keep up’ with him. Keep up with an asshole??? What??? Man, just typing this, I’m shaking my head!
Hi Natalie, I’ve read so many of your blogs but this one really spoke to me! I was dating a terribly verbally abusive guy for more than a year! He was not only so self absolved but had temper tantrums which he’d take out on me. He was a master at making you feel it’s something you did or didn’t do. To those that don’t know him he gives off the impression he’s the very definition of the word charming! He carefully tends this persona which always made me wonder whether others have experienced him like I have. Thank you for clearing this up for me! It’s been 3 months since his last outburst when I told him this wasn’t the sort of relationship I wanted. He tried to beg and use his charm to soothe things over like he had always done but this time I just couldn’t take that. Reading your blogs have made me realise that had more to do with where I was! Thank you Natalie! You’re so right “You addressing your boundaries would not change who they are; it would rid you of them” and am so glad am rid of him
“Their behaviour then equals your worth.”
I thought it pertinent to add to this by saying that their behaviour does not equal your worth. Only you can determine your worth. Their mistreatment of you defines their worth.
When you know someone who is living in that persona and is potentially dangerous to others, what is appropriate boundary? I relate to some of those you described in “the other people” especially those who know and don’t say anything.
I live in small town. The emotionally and spiritually abusive x still here and I get to hear and see when he is pursuing or “persona”-fying others–not actively watching/seeking but run in to him and people tell me stuff quite innocently. Thinking since we dated, not knowing all his mess, that it is Ok to tell me things about him.
Part of persona is Christian and he can speak godly wisdom but acts none of it in private–including porn and sexual perversions…something i thankfully discovered. I can do NC yet when hear that “he was such an inspiration to me spiritually when I talked to him last week” or that he is dating so and so, or that his new church is letting him sing on praise team, I get anxious.
I want to say something like becarful or he’s not what he seems.
Thoughts and advice please.
Hi BB – I can relate. I am part of a small community of local performers and my ex-EUM is friends, long established in this community. So it happens that I do hear things about him in the course of conversations. I’ve had to think about how to handle this and I’ve wondered the same thing: speak up or keep my mouth shut?
So far, it has served me well to keep silent. I don’t even indicate that I know who they’re talking about. I don’t say a word about him or add anything to the conversation.
If someone came to me, one on one, and *asked* me directly about becoming involved with him in some capacity – if they knew about my history with him and wanted to know what happened, I’d answer their questions fully and honestly.
However, I have not *volunteered* anything when his name comes up. It’s not my job to advise people who are not asking for advice. It’s not my role to define what he’s about. I have moved on from that relationship and, while I might have been tempted by an opportunity for revenge when the pain was fresh, I can say now that I’m glad I didn’t. I would have let myself down if I had. I can steer clear of it and let others handle their own business, their way. I don’t know if that will change – it’s possible that I could be presented with a situation where I decide to say something but at the moment, that situation has not occurred. I hope that helps.
BB, I’ve wondered about this very thing so many times, thank you for asking the question!
Michelle, Great advice that I will remember the next time I’m in that situation.
Suki, “Let the universe do it”. Yes, let go of that responsibility.
@bb; don’t warn people about him. It will only backfire on you. Put him out of your mind. You don’t have to speak your truth to have it validated. You know what happened and you walked away and that is enough. If you need to tell someone you can tell us at BR or your friends that don’t know him or the friends that you know are on your side.
Finally, step away from the drama!! This is all drama. It is not real. Not his faith or his porn. It is in fact illusion – if you practice spirituality you know what I mean. Yes he is full of b.s. So what? Let go of the desire to see him punished. Step above over and beyond his bs. It does not even exist for you. To see him exposed – what’s the point of that? Let someone else do it. Let the universe do it.
Suki,
I love this! Because it’s so hard not to let others know his true self. “To see him exposed – what’s the point of that? Let someone else do it. Let the universe do it.” LOVE IT!!
@BB again; so why does he make you anxious? Praise team indeed, I’m sure hes singing to himself. It also sounds like your neighborhood has taken religion and inserted it into a particularly nasty high school.
Last week someone had written similar, about wanting to tell a spiritual person off to protect other people. You want to go direct and tell others – but tell them what? ‘He’s not what he seems’? You’d need to wear a trench coat with an upturned collar and lurk in doorways too. That is a very mysterious message. THAT is the definition of inserting yourself into drama. The other person will say ‘why?’. You’ll say ‘no I’ve said too much already’. Whats the point of that? I’ve been thinking more and more about self-deception and to me this sounds like it. Youre lying to yourself about what this is really about (please don’t take ‘lying’ too seriously, I mean that youre evading the real issue).
As someone said below, IF hes actually abusing people (not just being an AC, a player, but real criminal abuse) THEN you have to decide what to do; if you tell people it cannot be in riddles. It will have to be straight up like an adult, and youll have to take the consequences of if they don’t believe you. IF what he is doing is not criminal, THEN by telling people ‘be careful’ in fact you are playing games. If someone came to me while I was hanging around with a new guy and said vaguely ‘be careful’ – I mean, come on, I’d think shes not over him, shes into drama, shes marking her territory, shes trying to hang on to him in any way.
Would it help you to tell someone that is close to you about this? Especially someone that also knows him?
Brilliant, Natalie!
Thank you for yet another insightful post.
Your blog changed my life.
I wish there was a way to make this blog heard by millions of women out there who are stuck in bad relationships.
I have been living in the familiar nightmare that so many have posted about. I continue to break no contact and find myself starting over so many times. He has lied, cheated, gaslighting, manipulation and downright cruelty. I am definitely suffering from ptsd. Knowing him has affected every area of my life. I have read so many books, sought therapy, and I still lack the courage to not respond when he pops back into my life at his convenience. I often ask myself what is wrong with me, why can’t I let go of lucifer himself? Tomorrow will be day 1 of no contact. After reading these posts I promised myself that I will be steong, take better care and to give it the 90 days. I need to find my smile, my peace with the past, and get my life back. Thank you for sharing.
More and more women are seeking quality information such as this site. And more are more women are saying no to subpar behavior.
V.
Sounds like a sociopath. Stay away. I certainly take no bs, but I am a kind and caring person. People who are only superficial and uncaring might surround themselves with pretty things but on the inside they are weak and rotted out. And I may be poor by this smuck’s standards, but I’ve got grit. If they make it to their elderly years they will be completely alone, bitter, and hated by even themselves. It’s a sad sad world to be a malignant sociopath.
@Peanut. I think so too. As far as I have been able to gather about his personal history – very little and not from him anyway – his father was a bit of a sadist and his mother had suffered from depression at one point or other. About the ‘suicide conversation’ I was mentioning above, I think he was repeating part of his personal history. I think that when he was little he must have heard his mother beg his father not to leave her (they did divorce at some point), otherwise she would commit suicide, and so he repeated this story with me, by replaying his father’s answer to her. However, I did not make such a threat ’cause I had no intention to do such a thing, not for him, not at that particular moment of my life.
For my part, the break-up with him opened a Pandora’s box – I think that is often how it goes and the reason why it takes so much to recover. To make it short, when I became an ‘adult’ and started having my own life, meaning living together with this guy I’m talking about, my mother started to behave better towards me. We developed a sort of friendship and pleasant relationship, as opposed to the indifference and hostility she had shown me when I was living under her roof. When I broke up with my ex, a flood of memories came over me about my mother’s behaviour when I was little, part of it only set aside, part completely forgotten in amnesia, and I recalled how she would always belittle me, and mock me when I was emotional, and provoke me when I was angry, and look at me with scorn and a horrible smile on her face and so on, and, to say it very succintly, He was Her. My ex fiance’ represented my mother.
I have been NC with him for a couple of years now, so no danger for me there. About my mother… I haven’t found the way out there yet.
Peanut thank you for taking the time to read and comment on my story, I really appreciate it when somebody validates what I say. I still need that kind of reassurance.
I also agree with you about the romantic relationships’ meaning. I don’t think I am entitled to it either; I tried my best and it didn’t work out, and it’s quite fine by me to remain without a partner for years or decades. Not to mention that I have made peace with the fact that I may have lost the ‘family train’ there; when you break up a long story in your thirties there is that risk to be acknowledged.
I remember how I felt in my early teens before the whole craziness of ‘love’ started: I certainly didn’t feel supported or safe in my family of origin, but I did feel whole. There is no need for a romantic relationship for that. I am back to that sensation and sense of freedom and independence: I am myself, I don’t feel less without somebody by my side. I don’t feel lonely either; as Natalie brilliantly said it in some other post lonely is when you are alienated from yourself.
Best, V.
BB,
I think I can relate to you. The abusive ex who brought me to BR grew up in a very well-known “christian” cult and I think that I did experience spiritual abuse (among other forms) while I was dating him. I’m treading very, very carefully with my words here because I really, *really* don’t want to start a large spiritual/religious debate/discussion here on BR.
However, I will say that a big part of Christian theology (as I understand it and I graduated from a Catholic college) is that all sin. All fall short. No one is perfect. (After all, how many divorced Christians do you know?) I don’t judge people who get divorced, and I’m not interested in pointing fingers, and I’m not saying that you have to feel comfortable with his behavior.
I don’t know the specifics of your situation. If you are concerned that he might actually start abusing (physically, or any other way) members of his congregation, that is something you probably want to bring up to the proper authorities. I know what it’s like to date someone who is very adept at “image management” and I also live in a small town. My best advice is to just ignore it when people start in about how wonderful he is. Yes, it is frustrating, but there is not much that one can do. You know your truth and you have your own life to live. (I hope I have been of some help to you.)
Thanks ladies :). And good luck with the jobs that you interviewed for, Sofia! Love your point if view! Spot on! xo
So timely for me!
I dated an a guy for almost two years. Earlier this year I found out I was pregnant, and he wanted me to get an abortion, told me he would send a check if I decided to keep it but regardless would still follow his dreams of going away to grad school. I was so stressed, could barely eat or sleep… and ended up miscarrying. He was really in and out during this time, kind of caring about what happened but not really.
He would apologize for his crappy behaviour, but then end up doing something else that was inappropriate (example: me being sad at home, him out at the bar having the time of his life just days after me miscarrying). This pattern repeated until I took a job out of state, and he went away to grad school. After I left it was like he cleaned his hands of everything that happened to me and never contacted me again.
This summer he went to volunteer at a breeding program for animals and was posting pictures all over social media about it. I found this extremely hypocritical, given that he was the first to want to abort his own. I kept feeling like I wasn’t worth caring about during the time I was pregnant and miscarrying, but animals are??? As if he put a higher value on the animals than me and his own child.
Lately, I noticed he kept liking a girl’s pictures who I was acquaintances with before he even knew her (we had the same group of friends where we used to live), and I wondered if something happened between them and again I thought…. why her and not me? Why does it seem like he really likes her but didn’t see me worthy enough of keeping around after much time together?
Thank you Natalie for this wonderful post, it really made me think that maybe it’s him and the way he is, and not anything to do with MY worth!
I just cannot get the thought of Jim Carrey’s GF suicide. The news shows the pattern of on and off relationship, and the drastic age difference between them. If only we had more love and respect for OURSELF and more confidence that we CAN do what we want and actually work hard towards it, so much heartache can be avoided. A young life wasted. You can easily understand a person by keeping your eyes wide open, what is pattern of their prior relationships? and being grounded in reality.
Wiser2, I’m glad you mentioned that. After hearing about Cathriona White’s death, I thought ‘oh no, a Fallback Girl?’.
Ladies and gentlemen please be kind to yourselves and put yourselves first when you’re in emotional crisis. Recognise your humanity and ask for help, like Natalie so often reminds us. The wonderful people at organisations such as Samaritans (UK) or National Suicide Prevention Hotline (USA), or in so many other countries (just Google), are there whenever you feel overwhelmed any time of day or night. No problem is too big for them or too small for them.
@Wiser2. Very sad indeed. I used to feel very emotional about such news until not long ago, before I confronted my own fear of dying this way. Now I feel deeply sad, but I recognize it is not my story anymore. V.
Demke; wow what great advice and u are so right but it’s just getting to that point to be able to stop myself from worrying about what he is doing or how he is treating his new girl and why couldn’t he be decent with me. I’m in my mid twentys and soon it will be a year since we broke up and I still haven’t gotten over this & then I think what if I don’t meet anyone else and I feel so robbed of what could have been I mean we had a house together, both physically healthy and I’n good jobs so I feel like GEE what was wrong with him not to respect me after all I did for him. this is what I’m caught up on and I’m also affriad of the day when I find out that he’s got married or had kids with someone! I mean why on earth do I keep thinking this. I feel robbed even though I left him; as he was so distrespectful I felt like I would drown if I stayed 🙁
Thank you so much for this it comes in the right time.
Lauren; I can relate to worrying and thinking about the ex marrying and having kids w someone else. Even though we have been treated poorly by our ex’s, doesn’t mean we don’t mourn the loss of hopes, dreams, and miss the good parts about them. It’s normal, And wondering how happy they may be w someone else.
It can be a hard concept to try and focus on yourself and what you want in your life, going forward. When you want to keep looking back. And you will stay stuck. I think practicing acceptance, and making a decision in your mind that it is over, might help alleviate the constant thoughts of him and his new girl.
I’ve learned that talking with a therapist (a really good one, who wants to help and set goals with you, not just ‘listen’ and take your $) has really helped me tremendously. Having a couple of good, supportive girlfriends to go out and have some fun, and do things that you enjoy gets you smiling again. I started doing Yoga and practicing meditation. Which, I never thought I’d be interested in because I’m naturally an anxious person, I used to do hardcore kickboxing (hey, punching and kicking a bag feels pretty darn good, too!) it got old. I actually look forward to it, and really got into it and it definitely calms those obsessive thoughts. So, trying new things… Getting back out in the world (letting the sunlight in), you will start to move forward. And you will start to meet different people, they’ll start showing up out if nowhere. Keep busy. And at the same time, don’t deny that you’re mourning. Maybe there’s something in your past that you don’t realize is adding to the sadness and having a hard time moving on. Or, maybe you just really cared about the guy, it’s your first heartbreak, despite the mistreatment, and hoped he’d change and be a better man for you. Just because he didn’t, doesn’t mean you’re ‘not good enough’ or not worthy. I highly recommend talking with a good therapist, and make a plan for yourself to take the necessary steps to begin healing.
And just because he’s with someone new, doesn’t mean that relationship is all rainbows. I have witnessed many people get into new relationships, and months later, they’re having the same problems with a different partner. Sometimes, it takes a couple different partners, a heartbreak, divorce, years and regrets later… For someone to realize, ‘hey, I have to do something about me and figure out what I need to work on’.
You imagining in your mind that he’s marrying and having kids with this girl, is just a story you made up in your mind. Because to you, it’s a fear. And you could be so far off from what is actually going on.
And…you’re in your mid-twenties. You’re so young and have your whole life ahead of you. You absolutely will get over this. And you will absolutely meet someone else. Take this time to learn about yourself, and think about creating a life you want. And date when you’re ready. When you’re healed from all of this, have boundaries in place (because you don’t want to pick someone similar to your ex and have your heart broken, again! …that’s exactly what happened to me and it’s because I didn’t deal w my divorce and heal from it).
Take some action. Set goals. Meet up with friends. Take a class or two, freshen up your skills, keep moving! You are worthy! We all are. And we all deserve so much more than sitting around wondering what the ex is up to. We deserve to be happy. You deserve to be happy and have everything you want in life. Stop punishing yourself. Every day, think of things you are grateful for. Stop dwelling in negative thoughts.
That’s IF you truly want to get unstuck and be happy. Some people want to dwell, and not be happy even though they ‘say’ that’s what they want. You have to want good in your life to eventually have it.
Every time a negative though comes into your mind, “I wonder if jerk face is happy with his girl”, ….flip that sh!t, and think, “there’s so many things I want to do, places to go, what time is that yoga/kickboxing/pole-dancing (yes, pole-dance classes are fun, and a huge self-esteem booster!) class? Where can I volunteer? Food bank? Pet shelter? Check out classes being offered to freshen up your skills for a promotion, or even a new career.
Ok, I think you get the point. Lol. Keep moving, you will get over it, I promise 😉 have faith.
Sooooo, it’s been over three years since the ex that prompted my search that lead here. Now? Mmm, he has a baby with another woman (which brought me to tears of laughter when I saw their child on social media when I had Fb, because his baby girl looks just like him — all grumpy and bald with the same scowl and everything, though, yes, she is precious). Am I jealous or angry or sad or do I want him back? Um, no. He and all our exes are allowed to move on at whatever pace they choose (my ex had a gf 2 weeks after we broke up). I have stayed single for three years. The thing is I don’t need to waste my precious existence and consciousness fretting about dating and what’s going on inside a man’s thoughts. I don’t care because I’m too committed with taking care of me. And every man that mistreated me as an adult in romantic relationships came with a blaring bag of red flags. Always. Every time. Not a single one of us is ever entitled to a romantic relationship. We don’t always get what we want. It’s not because we’re not deserving, but because that is life.
Peanut, glad to hear the last three years have been good to you. You have the wisdom now! For me too it’s been three years since the big shocker of a letdown and all the consequent learnings. In the past three years they’ve helped me not only in my personal relationships but in my working relationships too — the corporate world is a never-ending ticker-tape parade of red flags, and I now know how to read colleagues’ behaviour much more keenly from the start. That too is all part of taking care of me, and preventing me from investing time and effort pandering to unstable people who are nothing more than empty vessels. High five, Peanut!
Also, a romantic relationship is not part of basic needs. It can be something wonderful and splendid in life if you wait and involve yourself with someone worthy of that kind of intimacy, but if you go your whole life without a romantic relationship it’s not some great travesty. There are actually hideous atrocities and obstacles out there. Not getting exactly what we want from dating is not one of them. I get it, some want a family more than others, but as adults we must be satisfied with ourselves and our own precious existence.
I’ve experienced this many times in the past with relationships; they treat others really well and treat me like crap. I used to try harder and wonder what was wrong with me that “caused” them to treat me so poorly.
I’m more aware now and quickly move on when I experience this treatment.
Recently had an experience that feels similar and I’m struggling to work through what is my part and what is theirs, and the dynamics behind it so I can take responsibility for my stuff and set appropriate limits with them in the future.
A family member flew in for a wedding and stayed with me for just short of a week. It revealed things about our relationship that need healing.
I realized this person did not consider my needs/wants. I let it happen. I put them first and they know it.
I had set limits/guidelines for my expectations of the treatment of my home the last time they were here. Clean up before I get home. They repeated the same thing they did last time…I came home to a mess…they had been here all day and chose not to clean up after themselves.
They put off a project till the last minute and “needed” my help with it within minutes of me getting in the door. I let them know I needed some time to get a snack and just be. They said fine but they only needed a few minutes and they had to send it right away. I felt like I was, again, being petty and selfish for not taking 20 minutes to help them with the thing…they said they had been working on it all day.
I came home from work feeling great and within minutes, like 5 minutes, I felt exhausted, completely drained.
I got the courage to say something. I spoke up about the last minute request even though they knew about it for a week and coming home to a messy house. I was met with defenses. At one point they said “why do I have to accommodate your frustration?”(over coming home to a messy house.)
I told them to substitute the word consider and respect for accommodate. Respect and consider me and my home. You are a guest in my home.
When I expressed my frustration about not being consulted about flight/times days and that I felt I needed to take the day off they just told me how much they had given up to come. They came for a wedding – completely unrelated to me.
I have created this situation by allowing this behavior to continue. By not setting limits and enforcing them. I’ve noticed that when I do they test them or tell me how unreasonable I am being. I’m not treating me with consideration, so neither are they.
I felt like my speaking up wrecked the time here.
It’s interesting. When they arrived, they were feeling frazzled and drained and I was calm and centered. When they left, they said they felt calm and centered…I felt completely drained and lost.
Veracity why do you even put up with this crap? Why do you waste your time lecturing these people?? The door to your house is closed to them, there’s your boundary.
The minute you start lecturing somebody, for real or in your head, you have lost. Time and energy.
For some people ‘family’ only means the right to exploit other people. Next time just say “No, I can’t host you, sorry”. V.
V, I get what you are saying. That is what I would have done for anyone else in this situation. I think I’m struggling with it because I feel I have participated in setting the situation up by always putting this person first, not setting limits earlier. It was my responsibility to set firmer limits when they were younger and I didn’t.
I feel super guilty/obligated/responsible, something I am currently working on – facing/addressing. I do feel that they exploit this vulnerability and it breaks my heart.
I’m grieving what I see is the reality of our relationship. I wanted so much more. I wanted better for us.
Thank you for your comment.
Dear Veracity you can’t always have to pay. You can start putting limits any time you like, that is exactly the meaning of change. What’s the logic behind what you say? Because you were taken advantage of in the past, you can’t defend yourself in the present? Because you didn’t foresee all possible negative outcomes in the past, it is your responsability to take some more disrespect now? You’re not God, and that’s a relief you know. Let Him do the consequences part, you don’t have to hold them all in your hands, it’s too much.
I understand the grieving part though, I think that’s what’s keeping you stuck. Take your time there… V.
Wow, V! I started typing that I understood that I don’t always have to pay, but I realized that wasn’t entirely true. When I read your first sentence is brought up emotions in me, so I looked at it deeper. I understood it as I don’t always have to over give/do. Similar, but different. Paying, paying the consequences for their behavior instead of them! It’s there now, thank you!! Funny, such a subtle thing can make such a difference.
I am and have been setting limits. What I recognized this week is that I tend to give in on some things because of my stuff (fear/guilt/obligation)because I buy into the manipulations/blackmail(they know me very well). I was paying very close attention to as much as I could, in the moment, so I could understand my motivations (and theirs);what is getting in my way.
I made it very clear that I will not be tolerating the disrespect in the future. I already let them know what some of the consequences would be. My plan is to work on my stuff – facing/grieving what’s going on/what went on. If not having them stay with me is what it takes, I’ll do it.
It’s so disappointing.
The grieving. It’s amazing isn’t it? Seems like you must be done grieving ’cause you’ve grieved so much, then, nope there’s more!
Thank you so much for your insights. You’re further down the path and I greatly appreciate the flashlight (torch)! 🙂
Veracity
@Veracity; I was wondering about the dynamic. This person offloads their anxiety on you. I read somewhere that children will be playing calmly at daycare but meltdown on seeing a parent; having spent the day regulating their own emotion, they are relieved so see their parents and so meltdown. Now. This person is one of those that feels better by lashing out at others. Yes you shouldn’t have them visit you again especially if the mess is more than you can stand. They seem a bit entitled in that everything must be about them, and unless they are inconveniencing someone else they dont feel loved.
There are other options. First, you keep giving in to them leading them to believe that there are no consequences. They guilted you into helping them when you were tired etc. Second, you then (I assume) get serious and tell them you will not put up with this again (except that then you do).
I think that this person is a needy person. So you should engage with them when you have the energy for that – what I mean is, instead of dealing with them in your home where you need some peace, go to lunch or make a phone call, and just ask them hey hows your life. This is assuming you still want them in your life. I think its not just a boundary, its also the dynamic you have with them where they get to act out and you absorb all their anxiety without holding them to account.
If they’re in your house and not cleaning up, it will drive you insane because you are trying to control THEIR behavior. If you just call or hang out on neutral terrain, then you just have to control your own behavior (e.g. walk away, shut it down, give them the cold stare etc). one thing you’re not doing is calling them out with humor – serious calling out never ever works in my opinion esp with family. You just become the bad guy.
I guess I’m responding to how torn you still are about this. In some ways its the continuation of your usual dynamic with this person of guilt, grief, sadness, heaviness, a confirmation of your beliefs about life (the grief is never done) instead of all the other buffet of emotions; irritability, acceptance, zen, humor, anger, whatever. Those emotions are of your choosing.
If I was you; I would have ignored the mess somewhat if this person was important to me. But I wouldn’t invite them again; I probably wouldn’t tell them they werent getting invited again, I just wouldn’t do it. AND if they were being super needy and anxious I would just ask them; ‘you seem very anxious what is going on with your life’. If they were toxic, then bye bye. Otherwise, I limit contact but reach out to check on them once in a while ON MY TERMS.
@Suki; Your response gave me lots to think about/consider. I’m starting to recognize that I sometimes (often?) allow things in partially. I get it on some level, but I haven’t fully accepted it. I believe that would be true for the offloading of their emotions. I’m quite sure that is something we both do unconsciously – she dumps/I receive and process. This person has commented in the past that the more someone feels anxious, the calmer they feel.
I may be a dumper too, I hope not. Funny, I’ve spent my whole life avoiding being a burden/needy and I was extra careful with this person. It’s a sad thought that they might feel better by lashing out and they need to inconvenience someone to feel loved. I will allow that possibility to sink in.
Thank you for the great tips and suggestions. It helps to get an idea how other people handle these things. A big part of my battle is determining what normal/healthy looks like. I’m there, still a little wobbly in trusting myself.
“I guess I’m responding to how torn you still are about this. In some ways its the continuation of your usual dynamic with this person of guilt, grief, sadness, heaviness, a confirmation of your beliefs about life (the grief is never done) instead of all the other buffet of emotions; irritability, acceptance, zen, humor, anger, whatever. Those emotions are of your choosing. “
It’s actually most of the above! I have run the gambit of emotions with this person and this situation. I am close to the final stage of acceptance. I was (am?) stuck in the bargaining stage.
I think there may have been a misunderstanding about my response to V. about grief: “The grieving. It’s amazing isn’t it? Seems like you must be done grieving ’cause you’ve grieved so much, then, nope there’s more!”
I guess, in a way, that is a belief about life, but that’s not the way I meant it. While examining the past we come across wounds that need to be healed. Many of these wounds are great losses for us. Loss of love, respect, what we wanted and will never get, what we needed and never got and will never get, loss of time, loss of energy, loss of a fantasy, etc… My response was about feeling as if I have looked at so much and felt the loss and grieved it that there couldn’t be anything left. But, there is.
As for a belief about life, well, we have losses every day. Some small, some large. If we feel that loss – grieve it, it passes and doesn’t have power over us. If we don’t, those losses pile up and hurt us even more.
Thank you for taking the time to respond, Suki. I appreciate your insights. I get the impression that we have different temperaments and approaches and I really appreciate your perspective. It gets me thinking in new and different ways.
I’ve been talking to this person trying to get them to treat me well – consider me, love me, care for me. I wanted them to want to do it because they love me, not because I “made them”. I accept they require consequences in order to treat me well.
What you say about grief is so true. I’m an upbeat & positive person by nature but after being rejected & toyed with recently I lost my smile. Everyone around me noticed something was wrong. I was fighting an intense internal battle & realized I had to go NC in order to regain my sanity. I did so for 3 weeks & felt renewed & ready to face him. When I did, I kept my calm & cool. I was okay but then he showed up when I did not expect him to & he threw me off balance. I now feel like I have taken several steps back because the pain of rejection has returned & my heart hurts when I think of him.
@Wild Thing. The way you react about this situation seems to me symptomatic of an old hurt that is coming to the fore. Looks like the guy you speak about is behaving like somebody who hurt you badly in the past. Try to remember who was the first person in your life who “rejected and toyed” with you, who gave you this same feeling you are describing now. Best of luck with that, it’s not easy. V.
Wild Thing, I relate to what you are saying, especially the being thrown off balance by seeing them unexpectedly. It’s like you have to fortify yourself internally before seeing them and you can do it, but if you haven’t had the time to mentally prepare to protect yourself, they get the better of you.
I agree with V’s advice. When we have extreme reactions to someone’s behavior or a situation in the present it is likely because they/the experience reminds of someone/something from the past.
As V. said, it’s not easy. But in my experience, it will propel you forward in your healing quicker than anything else.
yes yes Veracity, pay the consequences for their behaviour instead of them. I think my English wasn’t clear enough there.
also, you don’t need to work more on yourself, you work too much already (read: analyse) that’s the problem; you need to work *less*.
just Say NO. when the urge inside of you rises, just say it. you don’t need to be able to foresee every possible consequence of your saying no, again; you’ll deal with them when they come up.
take the plunge dear, it really is that. v.
Veracity I re-read your initial post for the upteenth time and I finally get it.
I apologise for the dry way in which I wrote my first post, even though I really believe in the core message.
Let me put it this way: one teaches way more by example than by words. If you learn to protect yourself and respect yourself more, it is really good in the long term for both parties, even though it may bring conflict and separation for a while. You have to take that risk if you really want to improve the relationship; not least because the ways you have used until now don’t seem to have given you what you’d like to have. V.
V., Thank you for taking the time and energy to try and put yourself in my shoes – to get my perspective.
I took some time to sit with everything, to sleep on it and to let everything marinate before responding. I did come to that conclusion, finally. I tried the words and softer boundaries because I was hoping they would love me and care for me enough to treat me well on their own. I see that was a fantasy. I was also afraid of the consequences for me/us.
I can bare the conflict and separation if that is what it takes, I have done it before.
Veracity
Your English is excellent! It was clear. In my mind I thought of it as giving rather than paying.
What? Me over analyze?! 🙂 My new mantra…work less.
You nailed it…trying to forsee every possible consequence.
Most men nowadays are just users and losers. Narcs who are only out for their selves and what they can suck out of you. Your life, your energy etc while they cheat, lie and use you for whatever they can get out of you. Men use to care 10-20 yrs ago but nowadays? Forget it. Im 53 and I havent met a man yet who ever gave a shit about me.Only himself. And deep down inside I seriously think they hate their selves and are unhappy. That why they go out of their way to make us women unhappy and miserable. Its a sick kick. Commitphobic, drug addicted, Porn addicted , sex addicted lying cheating etc. UNREAL. My current bf is a narc of the grandiose/exhibitionist variety with entitlement issues. He cheats lies and I am trying to extract myself from him after 7 years and it is so hard. I love him and it hurts so bad knowing he really doesnt love me. He doesnt love me he is just an attention whore looking for a place to happen. 🙁 Happy birthday to me. right… I think its time to get even LOL
@Kara. Sorry about your situation. Because there is no magic button to push, the only thing you can reasonably do is to get out. NC works great with this type of people. It hurts like hell, I did love my ex too, but not at the cost of my life. At the next crossroads you’ll have to choose yourself. This is how it goes when in the couple there is a me OR you situation instead of a me AND you – dare I say an “us”. Best, V.
The entire time I dated my EUM was like the cheapest guy ever – somewhat annoying since he made a very good living as a lawyer. He knew I made much less than he did, but everything, I mean EVERYTHING, was split right down the middle. I didn’t really care that much because I am used to supporting myself. But occasionally, like when he couldn’t spring for a glass of wine but fully expected to get laid in a couple of hours, it really grated on my nerves. Anyway, flash forward a few years when I’d finally broken up with him (thank god) and for some reason we were still chatting occasionally. He told me he had lent a ‘friend’ $2000 – and he was irritated because she took so long paying him back. This was the man who wouldn’t lend his MOTHER money when she asked. And the weird thing is I really DO think this woman was just a friend! I have found zero evidence they were EVER a couple – though I think they fooled around once or twice. I was dumbfounded. How on earth was this guy so damn cheap w me but lent this other woman two grand? Ya know what? I don’t even give a damn. Not worth my time trying to figure it out.
@Diane. I think the connection you make is the answer. Diane = MOTHER, woman friend = external to the intimacy issues, if we want to call it that. These are people that haven’t managed to separate themselves from their mothers yet. That is tragic. V.
@V, ha, maybe. I was nothing like his mom, but yeah, I think like most EUMs, he’s great with people until he becomes intimate with them on some level and they begin having expectations.
Loved this post. It’s almost as if it was written in response to what (and whom) I was thinking about all day.
It’s always good to visit your blog (and love the podcast, too!).
Keep up and great work!
V.
I used to date vile men and attempt suicide when they mistreated or left me. My first suicide attempt was at 12 when I came forward about an uncle incesting me years prior (that kind of horror follows you for a lifetime), but when I started into my teen years, the attempts became connected to the bad men I dated. I thought it was because there was something so great in these men. Or that that was what love was, right? Nope. They just triggered all the feelings of hopelessness that I lived with as a child on a day to day basis. I wouldn’t have even noticed a decent man, because for me in my childhood they did not exist. My ex and I dated for 3 months and it took me 3 years to fully get over him. (Unbeknownst to me, until I found old pictures, he was a spitting image of the pedophile I lived with as a child.) To my subconscious, the ex was my pedophile. I craved the attention (it’s all I had), but felt like splitting my wrists afterward. Most of my life I have suffered from suicidal ideation and now I know unavailable men trigger that. So I don’t go there. The reality of why women stay with cruel men is beyond heartbreaking.
Dear Peanut… Me too. I need to address this some other time though, I have just emerged from the last depression cycle and I could really use some respite. Thank you for saying it. V.
Kara,
It’s not time for you to get even (there is never a good time for that). It is time for you to get emotionally available so that you can take care of yourself, see your own value, and stop putting yourself in harms way. This isn’t a game. This is your life; you only get one.
And there are good men. I promise.
Grizelda,
Thanks for the kind words. Life is crazy. I just walked away from a career opportunity because it went against my values. If I can’t do anything with empathy, it’s not happening.
Awesome post!! It speaks to exactly my experience. Natalie you have helped me so much, thank you
Dearest Kara, happy belated birthday dear. Dont waste your time and thoughts on him. If you are trying to extract yourself, thinking of revenge would be counterproductive. Think deeply what you want sanity and respect or revenge?
I suffered from self esteem issues throughout most of my youth & a few years ago I finally came into my own. I have pretty much always been the shy, quiet type. I was socially awkward & I’d get terrible social anxiety. I’m still awkward but I don’t really give a hoot anymore. I do what I want, whenever I want because I’ve always been somewhat invisible so I’ve never had any validation or attention in the past nor did I feel I needed it …until recently. I had this guy chasing me for months & because I’m so oblivious I never noticed until a a few months ago. He’s incredibly handsome & definitely not the kind of guy that I would have expected to be so “into” me. I was flattered… & hooked on the attention. He did the whole mind game thing of pulling away & I felt “starved” for his attention. He rejected me & it was excruciatingly painful. When I didn’t continue pursuit or beg him for attention, he came to me & basically baited me. He then waited for me to contact him. I didn’t. It was unbelievably hard but I didn’t. I think he’s tried just about every trick in his bag so far & I’ve reacted in the opposite way he has expected or have not reacted at all. I’m still very attracted to him but I REFUSE to be controlled. Any time anyone has tried to control me it makes me angry & I rebel. When I start to feel weak I think about him playing games with me & his condescending attitude towards me (in the past because now he treats me with mutual respect). I also think about how he underestimated me as easy “prey”. I am no one’s prey. I may be a lamb but I have the heart of a lion.
Good for you! That’s awesome!
wild thing, whenever you feel it’s unbearable to ignore him, think about how unexpectedly and badly you bruised his ego. this should help!
Such an awesome and timely post, Nat! I can’t believe how much time I wasted wondering about this very thing. It almost felt like the ex was Jekyll and Hyde or something. He fools everyone around him. Is always so “helpful” to everyone. I used to sit around and wonder why he was being “Mr Perfect” with his new girlfriend of 8 months. Why he was making an effort with her. After this weekend, I no longer delude myself. I found out from a friend of mine that the ex EUM/AC was actually flirting with her online (big shock lol). She told me about it as soon as it happened. When he was asked about it from my friend, his response was that it was all just “harmless chatter”. Unreal. Since when is flirting with other people while you’re in a relationship ok? Plus when my friend asked him if he had a girlfriend, he never flat out answered her. Just danced around it. Only when he was confronted with everything he had been doing over 2 days with my friend (whom he doesn’t know is my friend), did he finally admit that he had a gf. The ex then proceeded to talk about how his gf was going to NZ with him in March for 3 weeks for one of his best friends wedding. He barely sees her each month and this poor girl is fine with not only their arrangement but also going on a 3 week holiday with a guy she barely sees….6 months in advance!! Ugh. She is as delusional as I was. He’s already got her used to the status quo and eating crumbs. Plus it’s all on his terms as usual. I am SO glad I am no longer THAT girl. I know how he really is. I know how cold, selfish and indifferent he can be. So for anyone out there who thinks the next girl is getting everything you didn’t…think again.
Kelly,
Your comment helped me big time. Recently I stopped communicating with most of my guy friends. I developed a gaggle of dudes who just wanted someone to make their wittle egos feel all big and strong again. Sad thing is, it was draining me of my time and self-esteem. (I removed myself from social media again, because, it isn’t something worth making time for. Too mindless. Ahhhhh, the peace. Sweet sweet quiet and peace.) Then sure enough I get a text reading, “Hey”. Yea, not responding. If I let men in my life who waste time, I’ll have none of it left for anyone worthwhile including myself.
Peanut,
I’m really happy to hear that my comment helped you. I think you’re making the right call and looking out for yourself! I’m about to get off of social media as well. I also know all about being drained of time and self-esteem. That’s how the ex made me feel the last few months of our relationship. He’s a big gamer and there are a ton of gamer girls out there to feed his little ego. Plus with sites like Twitch that lets you stream your game playing for people to watch you live AND chat with you (some people have thousands of followers), the ex can now have his ego stroked 7 days a week if he wants. My friend was so angry and disgusted with the ex AC, that she was so ready to go straight to his new girlfriend. I talked her out of it. It wouldn’t do any good to be honest. His gf would most likely not believe her anyway. She’s already got him up on a pedestal. She’s already proven to be naïve and is ignoring any red flags. I mean…she’s going to another country with him for 3 weeks, 6 months from now! They don’t even see each other each week and she lives over an hour away from him. If he really gave a damn about his new gf and their relationship, he wouldn’t be flirting and saying sexual innuendos to any other girls. I used to be jealous of her. Now I just feel kinda sorry for her.
Just in case you’re wondering where men get these ‘ideas’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPNXzDY4nMo
Disgusting. I will listen to that stuff on occasion so I can spot this crap and protect myself. Not sure what the spin handshake is! Do they shake your hand and twirl you as part of the handshake? If so, old school pick up stuff. Creeps.
I could not even finish watching the first 1/3. I feel bad for the women, but most of all I feel bad for these “men.” It’s beyond even pathetic and disgusting. I don’t know what it is. It is inhumane. I feel sorry for these men.
Thanks for sharing, Diane. I had no idea this kind of “training” exists on YouTube. Our times are truly new and unlike any others. Deterioration and ridiculing, devaluing of a relationship between a man and a woman. Of whatever remnants there is out there. Truly sad…
@Sofia, yes, unfortunately PUA (Pick-Up Artist) stuff is very popular with guys. For awhile I couldn’t figure out why every guy I started conversing with online would suddenly insult me. Someone finally told me ‘Oh that’s ‘negging'” – it’s a thing where guys will insult you to bring down your self-esteem so you will be more vulnerable to their pick-ups. Bunch of other stuff. It’s VERY popular.Meanwhile, here we are on BR trying to build UP our self esteem from idiots who are trying to knock it down so they can get laid…
This PUA stuff is completely sad and pathetic. The only type of woman ‘negging’ will work on is someone with low self-esteem to begin with. If some bloke tried so-called negging me as a chat-up line I’d give him a cheeky answer, walk off and not have anything more to do with him. That’s how that type need dealing with. I can’t believe that they have any success with these kind of nonsense techniques!? It all sounds like something a teenage boy with no experience with women would attempt.
‘pick up community’?? hahaha, full of bs in more than one sense!
Kelly,
You are so much better off without him. Yes, I definitely feel ill when I see women sacrificing for men. And I am so much happier without social media. I’ve gotten to fall in love with nature, and now I have the time to give the proper care to my elderly dog that she deserves. And I have people in my life who respond to actual phone calls. My life is mine finally and doesn’t belong to hundreds of pseudo friends or a like button. So glad to be past that. My worth is not in likes nor attention; it is within me where it belongs. A simple life is a good life.
Diane,
These videos always give me such a laugh!! (Thank God for BR.)
Thanks Peanut. I completely agree. I just don’t understand why the new girl is still putting up with his crap. Not seeing him very often and being ok with last minute plans, like meeting for drinks and then undoubtedly sex after at her place because he still lives with his parents. That’s a dream relationship for her? Ugh. I didn’t put up with a lot of his crap thankfully. Mostly because the relationship was only a few months. But I honestly don’t get it.
Hey Kelly. I’m glad you got away from that sad little man. He sounds just like my ex. Hope you’re doing well now! As to what you were saying above…To me it sounds like their relationship is like this one: https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/advice-help-he-disappears-doesnt-call-pops-up-every-fortnight-and-gives-me-a-magical-time-is-he-unavailable-er-yeah/
It sounds like a part-time relationship. Anyone else agree?
Yes, I agree. I will also say you might consider taking the focus off her/them. You’re still attached if you are focusing on what’s happening with her/them. That’s not true NC and it will drive ya crazy if you let it. She’s making her choices based on her experiences and will learn her lessons. I feel for her too.
Agree with @Veracity completely. I know there is still some pain there for you Kelly. My ex and his new gf are almost identical to your ex (same arrangement). But thinking about them, what they’re doing, etc doesn’t help YOU in any way. I think we are all in agreement that he is still EU and an AC. If he is fine with flirting with other girls behind his gf back,and having a part time relationship then nothing has changed with him. She will learn all about the true him in her own time. You need to focus on your life and making sure it’s a good one! Stay strong and stay NC!
Diane,
After all the laughs, those videos are really so disgusting and the speakers are always so slimy and unattractive. Basically, what these men spew is beyond unethical and morally bankrupt. To them I’d say, have fun with your life filled of crumbs. So disgusting and sleezy. A man with half an once of dignity would never listen to pick up line seal the deal type garbage.
I am so sad right now. I am black and my husband is white and up until now I never thought my husband was racist but I am starting to wonder! Some of his political views are starting to sound just like some of the irrational right wing people. I am finding myself feeling like I love him but I don’t like him. His views are becoming extreme too me and I don’t know how to reconcile this. This is not the man I married! I don’t know who this man is and I am so sad at what he is becoming and why he is turning into this person. I feel like crying right know because I don’t want to feel this way about him but I don’t know what else to do!
Stephanie, That must be a very, very painful realization. I’m not sure from what you have written. Is he saying racist things/spewing racist BS? Have you asked him about his views to get a better sense of what they are and where he is coming from? The reason I ask this is I have a few far right wing folks I know. When I ask them deeper questions I am sometimes pleased to find that on the ‘important things’ we aren’t that far apart. Although, sometimes I learn that we have VERY different values and I end up distancing myself because of the hatred they spew. Either way, I’m making an informed choice.
I guess what I’m saying is that you won’t know for sure unless you talk with him (ask him) about it.
If he is a racist, I can only imagine that you feel very deeply hurt, betrayed and alone in your marriage.
Take good care of you.
I mean right now.
Stephanie,
I am so sorry you are going through this. I grew up in a hot bed of racism, but luckily I had an English teacher with a zero tolerance racism policy, and much of two years at school was spent studying the horror of racism. I can’t imagine how isolated you must feel. Given how wrong it is to hold racist beliefs, it’s shattering to find that someone you trusted and cared for might be spewing that kind of toxicity.
* I meant to say my teacher refused to allow any racist ideology in her classroom and thoroughly educated us about the evils of this belief system. (My syntax isn’t so on point tonight.)
I also wanted to ad in response to the video Diane posted to show where men are getting heinous ideas from, that all these pick up women videos and seminars proliferate rape culture. Sad sad sad.
And Stephanie,
I suspect some people I love do believe racist things and it feels like a kick in the gut to realize this. I am not black but my grandfather was an immigrant from a controversial part of the world and I feel hazed by bigotry where I’m from (also a hot bed of ignorance) because of my ancestry (something I can do nothing about).
I also had to deal with people making comments about how “different” and “interesting” I looked from the time I was a child on (so rude). I even went as far as drastically altering my appearance (thank God not through surgery) when I was a teenager to blot out any ethnicity. I got to a point where I hated that I didn’t look “all American” enough, so I bleached my hair and wore a mask of makeup. Now? I love who I am. All of me. Because I am a good person.
I had three horrible relationships in a row and am now very peaceful living my life alone.
My husband threw violent tantrums every four weeks. Next guy was a true psychopath who joined a cult. Last guy was a sadistic narcissist.
I moved, bought a home, got a new job, a new pet. Love my gym and my big screen tv, and my rose garden, and my cooking. I love me and will tolerate no more abuse.
Woohoo, AngelFace! Love it!
Way to go!
I have been NC for months and it’s been a wonderful thing. I am doing great most of the time but I am wondering: how do you deal when your exEUM comes up in conversation? I don’t mean in terms of refraining from speaking ill of them (I never say a word about him). My path rarely crosses his in person – when it does, I find it easy to stay grounded. It’s always a public space with others around; it’s easy to coexist without incident or pain.
I mean in terms of, people I care about, am close to… But who don’t know you are no longer friends with this person and why. I haven’t said a thing to our mutual friends about ending our connection, how hurt I was, etc. I went NC to move on and I don’t want knowledge of what he is doing – I have nothing against their friendship with him and do not want to affect that or introduce some weird loyalty dynamic. My issue is that hearing things about him really doesn’t help me move on – and yet, I don’t want to have some Q&A session about why I don’t want to hear about him. For now, I am ignoring the topic and steering the convo elsewhere. But afterwards, I have a hard time for at least a day or so. I want to avoid future episodes of this but don’t want to put people in the midst of this history. Maybe I need to do a self care plan for when this happens (and accept that it will). Thoughts?
Michelle, That can be tricky. What I have done in the past that has worked for me, with people I care about and am close to, is to tell them that X and I have parted ways. And that it isn’t something I want to talk about and I certainly don’t want to get in the way of their friendship. I also mention that I’d rather not hear about him (most people would certainly understand that!).
I’ve also found that when I say “some people make better friends than boyfriends” it has served as a reason without getting into the details or vilifying them.
I hope this helps.
Thanks Demke, you are completely correct in everything u have said there. I think the reason I am feeling so caught up in everything still is the fact that he treated me so poorly and then just has the cheek to blame all on me for his actions (narcissist), he misinformed mutual friends his family and everyone so that is something that doesn’t sit well with me. Especially his parents who before I left him I had a great relationship with them; I haven’t seen them since I left my ex but I know they have been fed a lot of untruths (he told them I cheated on him & left him for another man which Is a lie ). Maybe I’m annoyed with myself for seeing all the red flags earlier on then just carrying on and ignoring them (flirting with women, having to find out info through his friends as he wouldn’t tell me anything, hiding drug use, taking his phone everywhere as if he had something to hide, never wanting to come home when he’s out with friends, putting his mates first, blaming me for his behaviour, never wanting to show interest in my achievements, lying to me, swearing at me) Towards the end of our relationship in 2014 I caught him on paid dating sites of course he lied about this saying a mate must have done it as a joke but there’s noway anyone would do that a joke on multiple sites. I left for a week or so and then I gave him another chance which of course only lasted a few months as he was back to his old ways, drinking Heavy every weekend whilst ament to be working away, then disappearing when he would go out with mates and he knew this was the deal breaker if he continued to abuse my boundaries which I tried to set but he didn’t care. u are so right though these men know exactly how to draw women in and they pull on these to get them in. Mine was always a big flirt with other women even if I was in the room; any women he would flirt with and almost disregard me like I wasn’t with him, even his mates had said to me he can talk the talk so women want him. I know he prob won’t change and I just need to remind myself as soon as I start thinking the coulda, woulda, shoulda scenario. I know I deserve better & that’s exactly why I left him. He lied to my face on numerous occasions and I know now that I was living a lie; he lies effortlessly & this is his character he’s done this for years to me, friends & family. I know his drug use wouldn’t help him either as that will affect him in the future & it was affecting our relationship ( I only found out how bad he was till after I left he was doing drugs whilst I was a work u mean how deceitful is that! Thanks Demke, I am trying to focus on me by spending more time on me study, spending more time with my animals and going to gym. I will look into seeing a therapist as well., This site/ the books have been a godsend to me so I keep reminding myself; I can get over this and it’s better to sort it out now than later down the track.
Thanks Veracity. I decided to tune into myself when he comes up in convos, listen to whatever messages come up for me and focus on that. I decided I am not going to share what happened or even mention the falling out. I’ve come a long way and I will be OK… 🙂 I appreciate your guidance.
That’s fantastic, Michelle! As an aside, I’m surprised the people close to you haven’t figured out yet that you two are no longer friends/dating.
Today I celebrate 55 years of kicking serious societal a$$. Am now officially an elder, someone supposed to be a good role model for all. Whoops, some work to do there. However, in the past 4-5 years, I have come really far including not taking any disrespect from anyone. Nope, my life is far from standard fare, especially for a woman, but that’s OK. Am really trying to de-clutter my life, make myself the best “me” I can be. Yep, seeing AC at work will always give a twinge of pain until the day one of us retires and that’s just the way it will be. Until I began boycotting all events, including meetings, where he is, I would see him flirting away with other female colleagues, doing exactly the same thing hed done with me. Top that off with criticism from these women of me for not thinking the sun shines out of his rectal orifice. I know better, they will too. Yep, I like men to be attractive, articulate, well informed, healthy but again, I will still not put up with disrespect. Have learned so much from BR and all of you. Such a welcome change from many other rship blogs that tell women to basically be less, dumb down, accept less, live outside our values, not let our light shine for all to see. Screw that.
Happy Birthday, Noquay. Wishing you many more years of kicking a$$!
Happy Birthday to you Noquay! You have been a true inspiration to so many of us!
Hi, Noquay. I‘m a woman of a certain age too. I figure we have a choice: either think life is “over”, our choices are limited due to bad earlier life choices, and our future won’t be any different…..OR……think that it is never too late to be what we might have been.
For example, some things are out, like childbearing. But that does not rule out having children in our lives ( if that’s what one wants).
As Bette Davis said, growing older ain’t for sissies.
Take Diane Gilman, who I seek to emulate. She says her life got FANTASTIC after age 60. In her fifties, she lost her male companion to a horrible cancer, and her fashion line was stripped from her by a ruthless business deal. She was depressed and overweight because she chose food as her comfort. She sat down with pen and paper, took stock of her life, and realized that when life was fun for her, back in her twenties, she wore jeans all the time. Voila! She stumbled onto an unmet fashion need for women – jeans that allow for expanding midsections without looking dowdy – and she birthed a TV shopping fashion revolution. After age 60+, she achieved tremendous financial freedom and also discovered great sex with a younger male partner!
And like I say about Tina Turner – it’s always best to win in the end! When Ike was punching her around in her youth, never on her radar did she know she’d have a global hit record at age 45, another at age 50, and marry a millionaire at age 73.
Sometimes when I rue some of my poor previous choices, I think “Do I believe that someone born TODAY has NO CHANCE to make something of himself? NO! I don’t believe that! “. So I KNOW there are always new opportunities – for EVERYONE. For me, the thing is to get out of my own way! No more fruitless distractions – like ACMM or single EUM, or choppers…etc.
Yep, Tina was one of my all time favorites. Especially”private dancer” where the men all look the same. Am kind of in a slump today but still feel gratitude for a varied life. How many chix can say there inspirations in life were such as Howard Zinn, Kate Hepburn, Winona LaDuke? How many fought breast cancer solo, stood and faced bad guys with guns at protests, acted as a medic at the WTO protests, lifted themselves up out of poverty, an upbringing by abusing folk, chose to not be their families? perhaps many, I dunno. I a few bad choices in men but I also made at least one very good one (ex husband) and I made a whole lotta good choices in life. For now, I may not be respected in the workplace, am continually expected to dumb down to fit in, expected to see myself as somehow less than. I know that is NOT who I am.I dunno about jeans, but I’ll be doing something. Life may have a few wrinkles right now but is far from over.
Last year I saw a guy for a few months on and off. He was a classic mr unavailable and I ended up in a “friends with benefits” situation that I look back at and am embarrassed about. During one of his disappearing acts I met someone and when he re-appeared I explained that to him. He was quite jealous. It didn’t work out with this person and I stupidly got back in contact with mr unavailable. We met up one more time and two days before seeing him again text me saying he had met someone and joking about it. I blocked him on whatsapp for a few days then thought that was a bit childish, no of course I know differently. He contacted me again saying he was in hospital and acting like nothing had happened. I told him that I wanted to cut contact and not be friends and although not easy that’s what I did. I went for counselling and worked on why I was so bad at starting and ending highly unsuitable relationships with a million red flags. A few months later I met a really lovely man mr nice. We’ve been together for 8 months. A few weeks ago after nearly a year of no contact, mr unavailable sends me a message on whatsapp as he’s seen my profile photo with mr nice on it and me together. He said he knew him acting like we had some sort of friendship. It jolted me that he still had my number and I asked why he was interested. He said mr nice was a lovely guy and he was happy for me and he was just amused by the photo change. I said yes he is thanks. I thought that was weird and not wanting further contact blocked him on my phone, whatsapp and facebook. Mr nice worked with him a few years ago, they are not friends. He remembered him as being “a nice guy” as did my counsellor who also knew him! Now mr unavailable has sent me a contact request on Linked In which I’ve ignored. Am I being overly paranoid here? If he is a nice guy he certainly wasn’t to me.
What was your last move (based on his last move) before Mr. Nice New Guy came along?
NC.
Stick with NC
and blocking
and not answering any calls
or talking to or communicating with him at all
etc.
etc.
…and you will live happily ever after.
The End.
USed you are absolutely right there thank you. It doesn’t matter what he is like with others. Blocking and no contact is what I’ll continue to do. Whatever his reason for meddling there is no benefit to me having in my life in any way and I’m so much happier without him.
Have had a classic case – a colleague excluding me in a way that’s been increasingly obvious, who I used to get on with. While it has been unsettling, I considered that I have in my time conducted myself with integrity and have been loyal to him. I thought it must be the result of someone stirring or something like that.
Then, eureka! It’s BECAUSE I’ve conducted myself with integrity. It’s because I spoke the truth when he wanted me to cover for him, when I didn’t go along with his plan, after he’d tried to ‘condition’ me into thinking this is the way things work through a fake mentorship. I never saw myself as being disloyal, but just putting my integrity and the truth first, being professional.
Well thanks, again, to BR! Without you, I did the right thing without even thinking about it, there was no question of doing what he wanted me to do, because that would go against my values of courage and truth. I didn’t even think about it or question the consequences, because it was the only way I could act.
So there are consequences, which I’m fine with, and the only way forward now is not to talk about it and to stay in my sphere. I benefit from this exclusion anyway (less work!).
One last thing, is what i see again and again in charismatic people. They have a strong ability to connect and understand. But look closer, they lack substance, and have people on the margins who will have no dealings with them. And they’re the ones with integrity.
I meant, without you, I wouldn’t have done the right thing.. !