I’ve met and read about a number of people who’ve been involved with a ‘Chopper’, someone who finds your ‘hot spots’ or makes them up (yes really) and engages in criticism and mind games to knock you off your centre and chop you down. They’ll drain you of your confidence, weaken your defences, and bolster their own weak selves by chopping at you to ‘level’ you or even elevate themselves. Choppers and their manipulative, abusive behaviour are insidious – their true selves creep up on you and by the time you accept what you’re dealing with, they’ve often robbed you of the strength to leave.
Why does someone want to chop you down and even more importantly, how can you end up being sucked in by a Chopper and believing their crap?
What’s truly gobsmacking is that the Chopper has the audacity to judge and appoint themselves as ‘experts’ in the first place. There is likely to be a time early in the relationship, possibly unbeknownst to you where the Chopper perceived you to be ‘better’ and then they took up their mandate of changing this.
While some Choppers are obviously aggressive, it’s covert aggression often with a ‘Poor Poor Me’ attitude that somehow has them criticising you while portraying themselves as a victim. They’ll often point blank deny that what they’ve said is inappropriate and may accuse you of being oversensitive, no doubt adding another black mark to their mental dossier on you.
There may be subtle signs of what’s to come but the writing’s on the wall when they make an outrageous statement / accusation that you feel that you have to defend yourself against.
“You think you’re better than me. You’re so superior.” I’ve heard from a number of readers who’ve had the “superior” accusation and it preys on their worst fear because it’s something they’d already worried about. You’re likely to worry about this when you’ve been treated as if being intelligent or having achievements is a ‘bad’ thing that makes those around you feel bad. Next thing you’re downplaying yourself.
An ex of mine basically accused me of being shallow and said that I’d tire of him because my ex before him worked in IT and earned more money. It came out of left field and was completely untrue.
“You wanted to be with that guy/girl didn’t you?” and you’re thinking What the hell are they talking about?
“You’re going to cheat on me aren’t you? I can feel it.” Eventually it’s likely to be them cheating on you.
“You’re not as clever as you think you are you know….”
“I prefer a woman with bigger breasts / white / Christian…” and you have smaller breasts or are not white or are a different religion.
“I don’t know if I could be in a serious relationship or love someone that did _________” It is likely to be something really dumb. One reader told me that she was told off for dropping things and not being a good driver.
It’s important to realise that a Chopper has no shame about making something up. They know that they have you where they want you when you’re defending yourself instead of seeing this as a code red.
A Chopper wants to cut you down because it builds them up.
Unhappy with themselves and passive aggressively simmering with resentment, anger, and frustration, in their mind you ‘make’ them feel bad about themselves and so in turn, they deliberately say and do things to relieve that feeling, even though you haven’t done anything. They take out their insecurities on you. They don’t know how to receive love, never mind give it, and they justify their behaviour by believing that they act as they do because you’re not good enough for them to behave better, neglecting to realise that what they’re doing is about their own relationship with themselves and that if you were to do some digging into their past, you would see that they have form for this behaviour and you are just someone else that they’ve stuck their claws (and their axe) into.
Choppers have a convoluted and complex framework of truth and honesty which means that they give themselves license to be ‘honest’ (without respect) while at the same time telling lies.
I guarantee you – if you’re with a Chopper, they’re not being entirely truthful and no doubt if you catch them in a lie, they’ll turn it around on you. If they breach your trust and you tell them to jog on and then they weasel their way back in, you’ll be apologising. It’ll be “I want to love you but it’s hard when I feel like you don’t trust me. You have a lot of issues.”
It becomes an attempt to please the un-pleasable even though in the early stage of the relationship when they’re likely Fast Forwarding you and engaging in a spot of Future Faking that blinds you, it may appear like you can do no wrong. You’ll remember this phase of course, no matter how short it was before the code amber and red behaviour showed up and you’ll convince yourself that you’ve done something ‘wrong’ or that you’re ‘making’ them insecure. Don’t forget though, it’s the fact that they’ve misrepresented themselves or that you’re likely to see who they truly are that has them chopping at you in the first place.
A Chopper gets stronger and stronger, the weaker you get and the longer you stick around and at the same time, they actually have the cheek to lose respect for you. If you defend yourself, attempt to accommodate them, and stick around, they mark you down and it’s like “Ha! I knew that you weren’t so special!”
The Chopper latches onto your own private thoughts about you and based on your reaction or even simply remaining with them, they figure out where to ‘chop’. If you’ve shared anything with them that represents a previous hurt or any fears, heaven help you because they will be all over it like a rash. Another person would be empathetic and wouldn’t judge you – they’ll seize it as a weapon to use against you.
You might be vulnerable simply because you are already emotionally invested and you really don’t want to have to start over again or admit that you’ve moved too fast or made an error in judgement. If you value a relationship more than you value yourself, they’ll exploit that desperation.
The vulnerability likely stems from what you privately or even openly think of yourself. When you hear them saying it out loud, it’s your worst fears in 3D. Oh my gosh, it’s true! I’m not good enough because I don’t have the right body.
Even if some of the things that the Chopper says are not true or are stupid, if some of the other things they say tap into your fears, you may start to believe the lies or think the stupid stuff is important.
When you apologise for being and doing things that another person would think they were on crack to do the same, after the relationship ends, it can be shocking to face that you let someone like the Chopper tell you who you are.
When one reader who is highly successful, owns her own home, lots of friends, busy life, found herself being chopped down by an unemployed man who dodges his taxes, was living in her home rent free, was hardly Mr Popularity and didn’t have much going on his life, I was opened mouthed at the catalogue of verbal and emotional abuse that he’d thrown at her. Thank goodness she finally bounced his arse out. Yet she is still turning over all of the crap that he said.
What I can assure you of is that it’s highly likely that whatever they’re targeting about you is really about them. They’re chopping at you because they’ve been chopped at for the same thing, or they’re chopping at you because on some level they envy you but rather than assert these qualities in themselves, they’d rather knock them out of you.
Don’t get it twisted – being involved with a Chopper is a form of abusive relationship.
Good self-esteem or not so good self-esteem, the moment you find yourself on the receiving end of being verbally mistreated, especially when it’s early in the relationship, and you find yourself experiencing mind effery and tip toeing around them, it’s time to make a fast exit. No excuses, no hyper analysis.
Never agree with someone who is running you down and taking chunks out of you. They’re wrong.
You are a beautiful, unique person – somebody will love and appreciate you without attacking the very essence of you. Stop agreeing with their treatment of you – it’s what gives them their ‘fuel’.
Their behaviour isn’t about you. You could be The Most Perfect Person On Earth – this person chops everything good out of their life. Just don’t let them chop the you out of you – get out.
Your thoughts?
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Thank you. I won’t say any more. Too much is public these days. Suffice it to say I’ve been with more than one Chopper. Never again.
Wow you are 100% right! Met a few people like this they are all insecure & low self esteem. Toxic with a whole history of it! It’s def about them!
Abusers always blame & putting someone down is not constructive & should therefore be ignored as the intention is to hurt..,
Dangerous person… Run!
Lord have mercy!! These guys are everywhere! I thought I was crazy,but now my thoughts have been corroborated. My CEO’s baby mama was standing in my office showing me her sonogram. He walked in and shouted “look at the size of that thing “Your uterus in huge!” She’s a beautiful, intelligent girl that he now has exactly where he wants her. She has devalued herself, and she will never leave him. Having said that, he will end up trading her in when he’s done with her and he will do it again. Run Ladies!!
Your UTERUS is huge?? I hadn´t heard that one before. Surely she can reply “well but your spleen is minuscule”?
Or “your brain is pea-sized”?
@Natalie
This posting just sounds like nothing more than verbal abuse from an ass clown. Nar’s tend to do this too. Chopper to me is just another term. Verbal abuse no matter what form is intended to tear one down. Right on Nat it is never about you. It is about them. You could be that perfect woman but if that man is not happy with himself or his own life “WatchOUT”. He will tear you down to make himself appear like the BIG Sh%# that he is NOT and probably never will Be. Thanks for this…..
I am married to and have two children with a chopper. I have been with him for 12 years now. I always knew deep down that something wasnt right in our relationship. After the first year with him, I broke things off. During our time apart, I went out with a few different guys, but always ended up thinking of him. We got back together a year later and he has been chopping at me little by little ever since.
He wasn’t nearly as verbally and mently abusive then as he is now. These days, I never know who I’m going to wake up next to each morning. He finds a way to make everything my fault. He has been diagnosed with and is on medication for adult ADD. He is obsessed with organization, but cannot seem to get the least bit organized. However, if I do something like misplace my keys, he tells me what a disaster I am and goes off on me.
Last year when I was a US size 2, he told me that my ass had never looked bigger and I needed to lose 5 lbs. now I am down to a US size 0 and he’ll say things like “save that bikini for when you get fat again.”
There are moments when I am ready to leave him. But I’m scared – I have been home with my kids for 7 years and am going for a Masters Degree. That will take me 3 years to complete.
There is no love here, just chopping at me. I tried to have an affair (my husband also withholds sex and affection). But that just made me feel worse, I know that’s not the answer.
I’m trying to do what’s best by going to school so I can take care of my children. You see, he is stingy with money now, I am worried about how he’ll be with money when I leave him.
It’s a mess, but I’m trying to keep my sanity! I don’t feel loved or taken care of by this man. He complains so much about me, but I don’t think he would ever leave. Sometimes I wish he would just leave and find someone else to pick on.
@Sammy, have you checked the divorce laws for your state, assuming you are American? My gf received lifetime alimony and child support (based on the lifestyle she was accustomed to) after her divorce. Please look into it. You may be holding the key to your freedom & not even realize it! You deserve so much more than being someone’s punching bag.
Thank you @blueberry girl, that is very encouraging news. I do live in the states in NJ. However, my friend just went through a nasty divorce in this state – and I don’t feel she got enough compensation to live comfortably with her two girls. If I do this, I am going to need a “pitbull” lawyer. I have been making some calls to get more informed.
@Sammy: A graduate degree and a professional certification, if applicable, is one of your best bets of still maintaining some independence from your spouse. Hopefully, that will get you a well-paying job where you can be financially independent from this person! I agree with blueberry girl, check divorce laws, and if that doesn’t work look into shelters.
I hope you get the support to leave this man before it’s too late.
My ex-husband was exactly the same. The abuse became out of control once we were married. I became increasingly heavy, gained a shed load of weight, became tearful, highly neurotic because I just couldn’t cope between being starved of physical and emotional love and being criticised constantly.
The crunch came for me when a girlfriend, whom I hadn’t seen since before we married, came to stay and told me that she no longer recognised the person I had become.
You will lose yourself and what little is left of your mind if you stay put. Don’t bother with an affair: it will just validate his abusive treatment of you if he ever finds out.
Will keep you in my prayers. The other posters seem to have made valid suggestions. Definitely you need to get advice. Try a women’s refuge centre in the first instance, especially if they are able to give you legal advice for free and to give you ideas of how to disentangle yourself.
Big hugs. You can do it!
yes Sammy – blueberry girl said it very well …. you are nobody’s punching bag. I was married to one of these guys as well (been out 6 years thank god). So I know a bit about what you’re going through. I got the body comments as well. He criticized me for many different things. I like Natalie’s word “chopped”. The clincher is that I never knew when it was coming. It was random and based upon his whim, like you say – you never know who you’re going to wake up with. One day I was great and the next – how dare I be so stupid as to x,y, or z! I was an idiot, couldn’t do anything right, lazy and self-centered, according to him. One day it dawned on me – as it seems to have dawned on you – that no matter what I did it wasn’t good enough. I could be perfect in every way – Marilyn Monroe, Martha Stewart and Mother Theresa … and it wouldn’t matter because he HAD TO tear me down. It was about him having an emotional punching bag … his intimate partner was his emotional punching bag – to let off all of his self hatred and anger. I realized that it had absolutely nothing to do with me and that he would do this to any intimate partner. It’s what he does.
Anyway – I don’t want to go on and on about my previous situation. But when I read your post I couldn’t help but want to reach out and share with you that I’ve been there and I feel your pain. You have a right to exist. You have a right to breathe, to take up space and to have opinions. You have a right to be a size whatever! These types of men are just bullies plain and simple.
I know you’re worried about finances and your children. I was worried about money too (we didn’t have children though). I found that when I was ready – the doors opened and I knew it was time. And I made it! You will make it too. You sound like you’re doing all of your prep work. Just waiting to launch your plan. Did you know that some schools have student housing … which is much cheaper. I wish you all the best … for you and your children. Sending you lots of positive thoughts and wishes.
Sammy
There are lawyers who offer pro bono advice for victims of domestic violence and, no, it’s not limited to hitting you. Good lawyers. .Google them.
As for the financial situation, I stayed with a hitter because he too was stingy and I was afraid of losing everything as we had bought a flat together. However, when it came down to my life or the money, I chose my life.
He doesn’t have to kill you (though he might) for the choice to come down to that. Your money or your life?
In the meantime, record and date every incident. Don’t let him find out you’re thinking of leaving him or are making plans, but start making them.
@Sammy, if you won’t do something about your situation for your own sake, please think of your children. You are modeling what relationships are for them and they learn from you what is acceptable and appropriate.
Do you want them to grow up believing and accepting from the people in their lives that the way your husband treats you is how a loved one should be treated? That a man who loves a woman withholds affection and sex from her, is critical of her to the extreme, and goes off on her for small things?
How does he treat them now? Does he ‘chop’ them yet? Are they already insecure about themselves and feel that they must “be” a certain way before they are worthy of his love? If he hasn’t started ‘chopping’ them yet, he will, and they will always seek externally, from other people just like him, for the validation and love they didn’t get from their father.
Please consider that raising emotionally healthy children with strong self-esteem in today’s world is worth more to them than any material possessions money can buy.
Thank you for all of your replies and sharing your stories. I wish I had initially listened to my gut when I ended things with him all those years ago. But here I am now, with two kids – in this situation.
I know what I need to do, I just have to get my ducks in a row and gather the strength to actually leave. My children are of utmost importance to me, and they are my main priority.
Luckily, when I get my Masters Degree, I will be in a position to make a very good salary. I hope I can get out of this situation before I graduate, but my main goal is to be able to support my children with or without his help.
You just described my ex. He chopped me down…..until I chopped his arse out of my life. I lost a relationship and a friendship of ten years, but I felt much better. He tore me down, but I built myself back up!
“He chopped me down….until I chopped his arse out of my life.”
Bahahaha, brilliant.
Lots of choppers out there these days, even some women can be choppers.
I’ve met 3 choppers in my life, they damaged me as I thought I was to blame!
One was boss at work he made my life hell, the other was an ex husband, worst relationSHIT I’ve ever had & other one was female friend from abusive family, I got chopped 3 times in my life before 40!
Never again
Run away, if they hurt you just run, they usually have anger problems, can spot the pattern now after my experiences :-/
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!! Another spot on article! I never would have thought of the term “chopper” but it fits the bill! My three-year-long AC frequently mentioned that I was spoiled ( Like Nat, I too had an ex that made great money and we have a very comfortable life in terms of belongings) and he could never measure up to the life I was ‘used to” . He was unemployed at the time we met, I knew this and it didn’t bother me a bit as he was in school to better himself. I thought I was being honest and kind when I would simply say ” I don’t love you because I am looking for the ‘good’ life…I love you just as you are.” But he would make a face and say ‘yeah, right”
And he would occasionally mention how he was attracted to dark hair and eyes… I am a blue-eyed redheaded Celt. One of his ex’s before me actually colored her hair and got contact lenses to change into his stepford wife version of a gal….. I couldn’t believe it! and the frequent cut downs about my education, great job and so on…..I actually started to feel like those were negatives. Well, to him they were! – What I also realized, now that it is over, is that it was his way of letting me know, he was real happy with the lifestyle I could provide for him but he had no intention of reciprocating or even trying. He used to say ” I am just a simple guy and you will expect too much and I am not sure you will ever be happy with me” Well WAH WAH! and forget about having an intelligent discussion or watching a classic film. THAT was just ‘snobby’ and so “unnecessary for the real world” I never wanted him to change into someone he wasn’t but he sure made me feel like I did.
He is now with another woman,who yes, does make decent money but has much lower expectations of herself and him.( she was in two physically abusive marriages and one very emotionally abusive relationship prior to being with him) and I am sure she has no interest in classical music or film or anything more than hanging out in dive biker bars ( they both have motorcycles) but she has dark hair and brown eyes!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!
It simply amazes me how your articles just make so much sense and help put reality into perspective…… YAY NAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🙂
I have been a follower of BR for about a year and boy, I wish I had found you before I spent money on therapists!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you, thank YOU!
* we HAD a comfortable life ( the ex husband I mentioned ) – oops! I wish we could still edit our posts….. oh well, you all knew what I meant!
Chopper….. or as my gran says Chipper. as in Away at your confidence, away at your dreams, your hopes even for the relationship that they aren’t able to decide that they are in.
I really don’t like how I put him above me.
I did that because I loved him. I do that with all that I love and after some reflecting soul searching back I know where it stems from.
Daddy’s little girl trying to impress her daddy.
Wow who knew that these things stick so long?
And we do so put them on a pedestal and are so in love when they can charm you off your feet to make you think that the clouds have just taken you to a happy ending….. Whoop diddly…..”wake up”…..
Suddenly i’m in a place where i’m seeing myself beg for this person to stay (as i had seen my mum do for my dad as a girl in the past)….. How did the strong person end up becoming this weak?
I was watching myself almost “out of body”. I was so distraught that he could do this and all the while thinking oh…. my man (daddy) – abuser wont hurt me….. he’ll stop in a minute… That was new years day 2012.
He’ll see in a minute…. He’ll see how much i love him and cuddle me and tell me its alright.
Nope…… .
“Your not worth it, you don’t have my love, you’re not doing anything for me now, you didn’t do this or that, you moan at me for this or that, you wont let me this or that… Your too crazy, you have issues… you’re trying to control me, manipulate me, I think you’re bipolar, are you depressed?”
After the 4th or 5th time of the hot cold back forth with child… I thought he’d come round to really be in a relationship, yet this time it was way after reading your site and god knows how many training programmes on relationships.
That illusion thing is way strong isn’t it? We first broke up in 2010 My fantasy kept it alive for 2 years after including bouts of NC. I have such a kind heart I can paint any black sky blue.
Anyway the “Relationship” we decided to have after where he was physically present, talking and breathing, being here then going home…. Asking me to announce he’s my partner… (When there was no commitment.)
He seemed to be ok, he seemed to of been more certain and clearer about his involvement…. That was until the issue of commitment came round again..
Firstly he says i do want to marry you know? (on the phone in a passing kind of way) followed by emotional distancing even when we were together.
Then “I’m not in love with you.”
Hmmm…. Well here we go round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush the mulberry bush…..
So i kicked him out of bed.
Child or no child I’m not taking that.
And through being in contact on the phone, mixed messages to gain him one more chance to try and hurt me with.
“Oh you’ve messed up your child’s life… you’re a little tramp”…
Well i’ve done enough to read the signs, to know the score.
I wont be coming back no more!
This daddy’s little girl has to be the mummy now. 3 wks NC and counting.
They can only break your heart once and most of them are too deaf to notice it breaking from their ego’s exploding… So by the time they are checked in…… You’re checked out!
“Oh i’m sorry I hurt you, yet i’m only reacting to what you’re saying to me”….
I’m saying that the above is not good enough for me…. Get it now?
It’s funny because my grandmother used to call these kinds of abusive people woodcutters – as in they will use any method or means necessary to cut you down to size. She used to say it didn’t matter how long or how thick your branches and trunk were or how deep the roots, sooner or later, they will find a way to cut you, saw you, gut you, burn you, or do whatever they have to do to make sure you become dust. She used to say even the healthiest and hardiest trees can be cut but it’s the diseased ones (read low self-esteem or poor emotional state) that are cut down easiest and first. A little quirky advice but one I’ve listened due to unfortunate experiences with “choppers” in my own life. 🙂
oh my, I’ve been reading your website for the past 2 years, and it hasn’t been until now that you have described every little detail of my past relationship. He wrote me 3 letters in 2 years, each one 6 pages long about what was wrong with me, taking it to the most despicable lows of levels. He read my diaries (of when I was 15 years younger) and used that information to ‘prove’ I was evil, and he did this ever since he (without my consent) read these diaries, many a times. Yes, evil, that I didn’t deserve to be loved, that the betrayal of my previous ex was self conflicted and so on and so on. That hé knew what love is and hé would find it and I would be lonely for the rest of my life and it was just a matter of time before my friends and éven my family (I have a good and deep connection with my parents) would drop me. I need not say more, because it only gets worse from there. Those outrageous letters or multiple agressive texts would always come after I made clear he had to leave my life after some assclownery behaviour that made NO sense at all and he off course blamed me for it completely. Like he was some puppet on my strings. I made him do those things or I made him look like he did those things and yadda yadda yadda.
And the other examples you give were more than present from the beginning of this relationship after only a few weeks of ‘honeymoon’. The whole relationship was soaked in Poor Me, he would listen to my worries or concerns for one evening and one evening only and after that no support whatsoever. The only time he would consider thinking about my intimite stories would be to use them in a conflict against me. Makes me angry still.
You have described my ex to the very detail, something I have had problems with before, but is becoming more easy as each NC week passes. I have worked hard to be where I am now, and I can honestly say, I haven’t been this happy in a long long time. And I actualy have to thank him for making me dig that deep into who I am. Because I discovered the opposite of what he tried to make me believe. I’ve come to grips with my selfesteem and made some important decisions that have left me feeling better than ever before. Thank you AC. 😉
‘Because I discovered the opposite of what he tried to make me believe”
Absolutely.
Plus, usually they are describing themselves when they attack. They always accuse you of being what they are themselves.
A very thought-provoking post!
I’ve encountered three in the row of varying degrees. My first ex for 4 years (yes, 4) very much resented people at university and used the fact that I didn’t know where the zygomatic arch was as an indicator that I clearly knew nothing about medicine and would be a terrible doctor – the reason why I had struggled with neurology at the time because I was preoccupied by the fact that my friend had died. Yes, I know.
The second once gave me a lecture about statistics, telling me that I ‘obviously knew nothing’ about stats (this was a month after I had qualified as a doctor) and he ranted on for 5 minutes. The only reason I couldn’t walk away was because we were in a moving vehicle. I booked my ticket back home that very month.
The third was actually a doctor, so couldn’t use that golden ticket against me, but he very much chopped away at the idea of me being in therapy (he needed it more than I did) and he would constantly crap over the idea of any kind of self-reflection and healing (oh dear!)
I used to believe it was all about me, that I wasn’t good enough and they were right. I now know that it’s not the case at all and I was too good for them and their manipulative, toxic games all along 🙂
I think I have been with one, and I think these are the very dangerous people because the way I see it, they seem to have their own reality. They have this twisted view of how the world should be, and they have this insatiable need to control and manipulate. After I ended the relationship with this man, I just felt like my energy was sucked out, like I literally had to pick up myself piece by piece and reconstruct myself. Worse, they appear to have no remorse and think that they are entitled to what they are doing, and how they put down other people. Initially, I even went to the extent thinking that it was cultural, in an attempt to understand how my ex behaved. It was pathetic. I don’t think there is anything cultural to it, or circumstantial as per NML´s last post. They’re just walking sink holes or tornadoes. It seems like their goal is to destroy other people’s lives or bring them down because they can’t or don’t have the energy to elevate themselves and become better people.
I think a culture only enhances certain aspects of someone’s personality; in this case for your ex, it was his abusive personality. BUT in every culture, there are just as many people who don’t end up being this abusive and controlling. Only the abusive person is really to blame for his behavior.
I was told by the AC that his brutally blunt ‘honesty’ was just a part of his culture. And to a certain extent, it was (he’s Dutch). But at the same time, I asked Dutch girlfriends and they said they’d never had a guy say the kind of things he said to me. So culture is just another excuse.
Chop the Chopper out of your life. He chopped me and now I am living a very peaceful life. There are no axes in sight. Love your work Nat. But this one is your best!
yep, I had one if these. he told me, while crying hysterically, in our fourth phone conversation, before he had even met me, that I was the one. proceeded to fast forward the relationship at breakneck speed (had us picking out engagement ring in a month). meanwhile his life was a total mess, which he dumped all over me, and he flat out confessed that he had a massive insecurities and often felt like an idiot (he was actually smart and knowledgable, just a complete basket case with a massive inferiority complex).
eventually he ran away from me, verbally pummeling me as he went, derogating me for what anyone else would consider to be my strengths – I was too analytical (translation: I know you will eventually figure out how much of a piece of shit I really think I am) and I make him feel stupid (me: that’s completely unfair – do I really treat you belittlingly or is that your doing? I’ve only ever been kind to you and I have complete respect for your intellect and I couldn’t possibly have made that clearer to you. him: it’s probably me, but why do you have to analyze it? me: because you’re accusing me of something terrible that is actually totally untrue. him: I DON’T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS ANYMORE! and he hung up on me)
he was a lunatic who left me feeling like I had been beaten with an iron skillet. his treatment of me was SO crazy and unfair that I was able to have some perspective on it, even in the moment, it made no sense and was actually counterfactual. but i still was ledt feeling like I was diseased to the core and unlovable – took me months to realize it was he who was diseased and unlovable –
come to think of it, it was right after him that I got involved with the ex-EUM – in fact, the lunatic set me up perfectly to be vulnerable to the ex-EUMs overly critical, selfish, emotionally crippled vortex of bewilderment.
jesus
…sorry, hit send too soon…
jesus, I’ve had a bad run with men. but I see it’s because I was accepting unacceptable offers.
thanks for this post, Natalie. it really helps put things into perspective. we really have to keep our values, goals, boundaries, and respect in clear view or we end up agreeing to truly horrifying terms of engagement.
That conversation you had with him..woah, was he even listening to himself? I hear you about accepting unacceptable offers. On a bad day, I feel like I ended up with guys who actually hated me..
Yes, definitely an inferiority complex with him/them. So so not happy with themselves. Also, can someone who feels inferior still be a narcissist? THAT is a deadly combination.
@ PurpleLily they certainly can be, and the very fact that everything is soaked in their (so called?) inferiority complex and they are constantly reminding you of the fact they are so insecure and they feel an idiot all the time (more like as if that makes them a good guy for ‘admitting’ it or being ‘open’ about it) can also be a sign of narcissism. They are so blinded by them being victimized (and after a while it’s solely victimized by you) that they can not see another person’s perspective let alone listen to it. And even when they do, and he would listen to me all evening, the next day, you could bet your sanity on it he would have listed all this information in his head to use it against you in an argument or go ‘woe me, I had to listen to you all night!’ Even when I was very taken with the flue once, he actualy blamed me for not being gratefull enough because he went for medicine around the corner. Blamed me for being ungratefull about that even a year later in a totaly irrelevant matter! So feeling something close to empathy is almost impossible for them because they are so full themselves and so full of (Sh)it.
cc
“I still was left feeling like I was diseased to the core and unlovable – took me months to realize it was he who was diseased and unlovable” – YES! How do they DO that? Play down their hugely present disease-state while making out like WE are the only ones with issues? Because we let them, I imagine Natalie saying. No more!
sofie,
oh my goodness, he actually blamed you for not being grateful enough that he did what any decent person would do and got you medicine? Did he expect a dissertation? You were feeling like crap, and he expected to put all that aside to make sure YOU gave HIM an ego stroke? Wow, sounds like he was a super-victim. I also got the self-effacing comments from the exMM – “I have low self esteem” (like it was a badge of honour)”I am insecure about finances” “I don’t know what love is – I want you to show me” (the last part to music). It was like he was making himself out to be a poor, unloved soul who needed emotional rescuing – it was almost posed as a challenge. I never connected that to possible narc behaviour before, but I imagine he had used it on other members of his harem to see what he could get out of them while they tried to be the first to “show him real love” Barf! I agree – empathy is NOT a top skill of these creatures.
@cc
I could go on and on, but what remains is the fact that I beliéved his ‘look what you do to me, you are crazy, you need help, everybody feels the same about you (!)’ and so on and so on, and that I képt saying, ‘but he’s really a good guy, réally!!’. A combination of chopper vs florence vs FBG and the list is long. But really, what he made me realize is that not only he was sort of a cancer in my life, other ‘friends’ were slow poisoners too, for they did the exact same thing to an extent, and for that and this sudden realisation and the fact I flushed most of them and I actualy feel GOOD, and now I recognise this behaviour so well, I am thankful (to myself 😉 )
@cc
““I have low self esteem” (like it was a badge of honour)
Exactly!!
“I don’t know what love is – I want you to show me” (the last part to music).”
> answer: ‘I just died in your arms tonight, must ‘ve been something you said’
Hahaha thank you for making me laugh out loud about this.
The inferiority complex coupled with the narcissism is the only way I have ever seen them lol? Is there another combo;)?
THANK YOU for this one, Natalie. My ex is a chopper. The good thing was that I am at the point where I absolutely knew what he was doing and I refused to internalize it. But, bottom line is that these guys are UNSAFE. People who love you do not do this stuff. People who love you are THERE for you and do not tear you down or tell you “who you are”. You don’t have to protect yourself from those who love you!! Get rid of anyone who tries to tell you that you are not OK. That is really him, looking in the mirror and saying that to himself.
Natalie,
EXCELLENT article! What you’ve described has been evident with the worst psychopaths on the planet. These are of the stealth variety.
This is where our own personal boundaries become so important. If we have healthy self esteem, this behavior will be seen for what it is and getting out will NOT be an issue. I was in a relationship like this and it nearly destroyed me. When I look back and see where I was when the relationshit commenced, I was NOT in a good place, in fact, far from it. These are emotional predators and they LOVE what they perceive as “successful” women. A job, money, outgoing personality…it’s a CHALLENGE for the “chopper” and he love bombs his target and as soon as he has her in his clutches the CHOPPER begins to CHOP in a very insidious way. I reiterate that the honeymoon/luring stage is the MOST dangerous because when the chopper begins to chop, it will be the BEGINNING that she remembers, NOT the chopping and the man behind it and who he REALLY IS. Those who are of the FF variety, want to get you hooked ASAP, not only so they can begin chopping, but also because they don’t want you to see that this behavior is a PATTERN of destruction for them. GET AND HONOR YOUR BOUNDARIES! GREAT article,Nat!
Kelli, Kelli, Kelli!!!!
“A job, money, outgoing personality…it’s a CHALLENGE for the “chopper” and he love bombs his target and as soon as he has her in his clutches the CHOPPER begins to CHOP in a very insidious way. I reiterate that the honeymoon/luring stage is the MOST dangerous because when the chopper begins to chop, it will be the BEGINNING that she remembers, NOT the chopping and the man behind it and who he REALLY IS. Those who are of the FF variety, want to get you hooked ASAP, not only so they can begin chopping, but also because they don’t want you to see that this behavior is a PATTERN of destruction for them. GET AND HONOR YOUR BOUNDARIES!”
Tell it girl!! I was chopped and it went down EXACTLY the way you just described–cut him aloose two months ago. My mind is so messed up after that experience, I don’t even want to be in another relationship! I just hang out with friends, family, and my little dog now.
Kelli,
Your post, along with Natalie’s article, really resonate with me. I experienced that stealth chopping you mention here, being as subtle as not really acknowledging anything I accomplished or even any concerns I had in my life. I stupidly shared my fears with him, and he exploited them. It was all about him. He admitted being a bit of a shy loner as a child/teen, and went through rejection from classmates and girls he fancied. It felt like he needed to “even the score” at the expense of others.
Thank goodness so many of us have found the strength to get out of these devastating relationships with the help of BR. I agree the beginning stages are most dangerous. Values and boundaries are our shields, yes – thanks and strength to all xo
You nailed the article on multiple levels. Mind F@&*ing at its best. When I was in the thick of it,I was in denial that he knew what he was doing. He knew. Looking back, he was jealous I was happy, jealous my kids were loving, jealous I nailed it as a parent and had my priorities in line. 2 years it took me to recover and 6k in therapy. I’m stronger for it, and learned a wounded place in me allowed it. I still, wish him well, but talking to him would be like a injection of crack in my brachial. No thanks! I don’t need the acne. Xoxo
Great article….
Holly
I never really looked at it like they know what they’re doing either, but I think you’re right. The exMM always claimed he was “oblivious” re: emotions and the meanings of social interactions. The idea that straight-up jealousy could be a motivator for their chopping behaviour makes sense! The exMM mentioned over and over that he loved how happy I looked – he loved my smile and he almost seemed to envy that about me, while he had a blank look most of the time. Blank look reflecting an empty soul. Sucking the life out of my smile. Jeez, maybe he DID know what he was doing. Wolf in sheep’s clothing or what?
Natalie,
When are you coming to the San Francisco area?!! Girl, I would love to take you out to lunch or dinner! This post really resonnated with me as I broke up with a ‘chopper’ two months ago. This may not surprise you, but I felt more relieved than sad. That relationship started out wonderful (I was treated like gold). Eventually, my chopper could not keep of the charade and when the representatives left, he started to show his true colors. After dealing with that fool (what does that make me since I put up with his crazy making behavior for three months out of the seven that we had been together??), I am so exhausted, being alone (not lonely) is such a WONDERFUL experience!
Luv ya Nat! You are the best!
I had one of these! He was a person I saw on and off for a few years during his divorce. He wasn’t outright mean, but more like passive-aggressive. HE would invite me to dinner or on holidays to a beach and make comments like he can’t find the girl he wants, or that his therapist thinks he should try online dating.. These kinds of things.. I think this is still a chopper as the comments would come out of the blue.. ICK!
Please ladies don’t waste your life on these losers or you will end up losing yourself and that is the biggest loss.
Better to be alone with your sanity.
I’m a Muslim & in Islam a woman can divorce her husband on grounds that he’s abusing her. Abuse is oppression, taking a woman’s right of self respect, dignity etc…
If a man cannot fulfil his wifes emotional, physical needs reasonably & hes abusing her then a woman can divorce him in Islam, Islam is anti oppression as a religion & advocates for human rights.
DOnt waste your life, move on & learn to spot the signs of an abuser, never look back or give them a chance for revenge they have no limits and will stoop to the lowest of the low, be safe & keep out of their reach
They are real life monsters
Omg, this was my last relationship. The guy was a highly intelligent narcissist with a string of disastrous relationships that never went beyond the two year mark. That should have been my first clue. Kelli, you are bang on when you say they go for a woman with a career and outgoing personality. He started off saying I was the girl of his dreams, he couldn’t believe I was with him because I could have my “pick of the litter,” I was a fox, blah blah blah. Not long after, he was calling me an “old boiler,” pretending he wanted a hug and instead pinching my waist line, telling me “you’re no Kate Moss.” By the end, he was saying things (in front of people) like, “you’re your father’s biggest disappointment,” and making horrible, sexually degrading remarks (“big dirty vagina,” etc.). He would also blow hot/cold, withdraw affection and tell lies. He went from fawning and passionate to an absolute nightmare, and I hung in for way too long – two years. And yup, Nat, I’m now beating myself up for it. I’m embarrassed at how I normalized such abnormal behaviour.
These guys do a number on you. It takes time to recover. I’ve been rebuilding my self-esteem for over a year now, and it’s been a struggle, but it’s worth it. I’m just so glad I got out, even if it hurt like hell to do so. Clearly, my self-esteem needed work. There’s the lesson.
Holy crap. You speak of my father and a current relationship I have just discovered is getting ugly in this regard.
Some things I wanted to add: A Chopper isn’t always obvious. When you first meet this person, they seem smart, maybe even almighty. Over time, however, you will start to see the flaws they tried so hard to hide. As a parent, the Chopper believes that your achievements were his own, but puts you down any time he thinks you are “lagging behind” in any way, instead of patiently guiding you back into a good path. A Chopper believes in control, not choice. He doesn’t understand that if I make choice A, then he can choose to accept that choice or opt out. Instead, he states that if I had not made that decision, he would not have had to do x or he blames me for his unhappiness as a result of my choice.
This article really hit home for me.
Also want to mention: a Chopper does not always yell at you about what you’re doing wrong. At some point, he’s done that enough where you’re walking on eggshells trying to avoid whatever you know will set this person off.
Robin
You just described my “chopping” father, too. The walking on eggshells analogy is spot on! Thank you (and Natalie) for helping me to make that connection.
These people are very DANGEROUS & will destroy you if you don’t get away.
They might even try to lure you back in by being charming only to devestate you with revenge
There’s no remorse or conscience
Something missing as they are emotionally damaged, unable to love themselves or others.
They are psychopaths & insane, what is the outcome of trusting & loving an insane person???
They repeat the pattern with others again & again…
There should be some sort of social justice system for such dangerous individuals as they commit crimes against humanity….
That’s what gets me the most, yes I got away, yes I’ve got scars, yes I’ve suffered, but he hasn’t had his commupance….
Where’s the justice?
This post is spot on! This idiot, lying AC was a chopper. I showed him my graduation pics because I was so proud that after many years of setbacks and problems, I had gotten my Bachelor’s degree. I wasn’t braghing in ANY type of way…just simply sharing my accomplishments with him. So, was the first thing he said “You look beautiful/nice picture/I’m happy for you.” Nope! His response was “I can tell you didn’t graduate with honors because you don’t have any sashes around your neck.” Ouch. That seriously hurt and made me feel like I was dumb.
Sadly my family are all my choppers. What makes it worse is that they talk me up to their friends. So their friends think I am crazy or misunderstanding my family members when I seek support for this. Growing up in this environment gave me low self esteem and high achiever behavior. So then I achieve lots and other choppers appear in my life. I was actually living in a homeless shelter when I was harassed by a chopper who decided I thought I was better than everyone else there! It’s laughable. How can anyone in a homeless shelter think highly of themselves? ha ha ha I laugh now. Having low self esteem made me aim low with boyfriends even though I am classic beautiful on the outside, I never feel it on the inside if you know what I mean… so that’s lead to a history of abuse of this nature. I am beginning to understand what’s going on now thank God (and thank you for this well timed post). All the chopping made me feel I needed to work harder to prove myself and that’s made me more talented (talent is made by hard work) so I can thank them for that, but not for the low self esteem.
The second someone chops at you and you feel that horrible pang inside, well that’s instinct telling you to run. DO IT. These men are dangerous and you will entirely lose all sense of identity by staying with them.
I spent one and a half months in a blissful relationship and a subsequent h months of the deepest confusuion, worry and fear that everything I thought I knew about myself was wrong. I could go into detail but it’s a long story. Basically I left, suddenly, because it was the only way to hold onto what mental strenght I had.
That was three months ago, he called me last night. The job he got because I begged him to get one is now gone. He’s living with his father and earning nothing. He told me he’ll be famous one day and that I’m still his woman and then it started…I had tried to change him, I was paranoid, I was so troubled, I was messed up. I ended the call and felt a bit sick. Who the hell is this guy?! And why did I fall for it?
After a minth and a half of NC, I realise it’s time to cut him out completely. He’s in another country at least! I can’t believe he still leaves me confused even after I got on a plane and left him.
So, I guess I did get into the story, but, the lesson is: as soon as the first put-down comes your way, listen to that intelligent gut instinct. It’s there for good reason.
P.s. Typing on teeny phone, excuse typos 🙂
Halva,
Please do not talk to this creep again! You are doing yourself no favors!
“Who the hell is this guy?!”
Hilariously, I actually told a Chopper that out of sheer frustration. You think you know who they are: nice people, maybe they don’t like planning ahead, and then something comes up that doesn’t benefit the Chopper and he’s the Incredible Hulk: he isn’t nice, and you know what? He actually DOES like planning way ahead of time! Oooo or if you show any signs of trying to leave him, he begs you to stay; he’ll be nice again, he’ll never do that again….
It disgusts and frightens me to know that I know these kinds of people exist. lol
Robin – more goosebumps of recognition. I remember saying “I feel like I don’t even know you” when I finally exposed all his lies and gas-lighting. And then his begging me to stay after the horrific details were revealed.
“It disgusts and frightens me to know that I know these kinds of people exist.” Me too!!!
yes yes yes! I have ran into this my whole dating career. Probably because I have always dated guys who have not done much with their lives because I didn’t think I cared about that “shallow” stuff and so on. I learned this the hard way. great insight and this post is exactly how it is.
I was just thinking, I am not successful, I dont own my home and I have never have “lots of friends”, is that a value? I mean, I was living with a Mr Unavailable and I of course worked but I didnt earn even 3/4 He did, I am OK with myself, this idiot who was successful in his job and has his group of friends from his teenage years rubbed on my face ( couldnt give a f) and always talking to people even if He thought they were worthless, I dont know if it’s me who doesnt understand how society works or what…
I chopped the choppers out of my life but new group has arrived in the form of in-laws. UGH!!! Thanks for the article, it’s a good reminder of what is going on and not to fall for it 🙂
“The Chopper latches onto your own private thoughts about you and based on your reaction or even simply remaining with them, they figure out where to ‘chop’. If you’ve shared anything with them that represents a previous hurt or any fears, heaven help you because they will be all over it like a rash. Another person would be empathetic and wouldn’t judge you – they’ll seize it as a weapon to use against you.”
My God, Natalie, I have chills. My Chopper latched on to my sensitivity about my age since he was thirteen years younger, cruelly showing me pics of young girls he claimed to be “hooking up” with. All the while, he was “just being honest,” and “not trying to bust my chops”
…well, it hurt like hell but I’m realizing now he was exploiting a weakness that I know I’d shown and even mentioned in his presence. And, just to confirm what you say in your post, my therapist thinks he was lying about the girls to pump up his ego, at my expense, of course.
It’s ironic that I was looking beyond his negatives to what I thought was a sweetness & vulnerability within – while he was crushing my positive qualities to expose my insecurities. So glad to be rid of his lies, cruelty and mind effery. Great post, Nat.
THIS. “If you’ve shared anything with them that represents a previous hurt or any fears, heaven help you because they will be all over it like a rash. Another person would be empathetic and wouldn’t judge you – they’ll seize it as a weapon to use against you.”
I told my Chopper about how something bad was going on at work, and I really needed to stay in and be by myself, because I cope with difficult situations that way first. I wasn’t even trying to shut myself out from everyone; I just knew that I needed a day to myself to figure out next steps and would reach out to friends and the Chopper afterward. But the Chopper wasn’t taking it well; his first reaction wasn’t to say, “Alright, I’ll give you some space, talk to me when you feel like it.” It was, “What will our friends think?”
Strangely, a Chopper isn’t always mean 24/7 (being mean is hard work! *sarcasm*), which is why some people stay on with this person for longer than they should. This does not, in any way, mean that he finally respects who you are. Far from it. S/he’s only tolerating your behavior and when they find something they consider “worse” behavior, they’ll POUNCE even harder.
“It’s ironic that I was looking beyond his negatives to what I thought was a sweetness & vulnerability within – while he was crushing my positive qualities to expose my insecurities.”
Excellent point!
Dear B,
We’re you involved with Walter too? Sounds like it.
Hey Jessie,
Did I miss any post? I haven’t heard of this Walter? No, his name is not Walter. I would rather not name and shame unless it’s in my own personal blog or in the formal letter of complaints due to grievous misconduct which I’ve made. But anyway, maybe he probably did a ‘Walter’ on me.
xx
“I guarantee you – if you’re with a Chopper, they’re not being entirely truthful and no doubt if you catch them in a lie, they’ll turn it around on you.”
I believe I actually told a Chopper, “I have no idea who you are!!” And it is true; they may seem truthful about who they are, but give them a particular situation that doesn’t benefit them in any way, and they immediately react differently than you expected.
Wow, this really kind of hurt to read.
The original chopper in my life was my first step-mother. She married my dad about 5 months after my mom died and she was just cruel, and she had this need to hurt me; she was just really always mean but only to me.
For a long time I really thought that there was something broken about me-too weak, too needy, whatever-that made her zero in on me but now I know that probably she hated me because she was jealous and she felt ineffectual. There I was, this pretty cute and very needy 8 year old who was just depressed as hell and she really did not want to deal with the responsibility of being there for me. She wanted my dad, as a husband to her and a father to her 2 daughters.
Anyway, so she used to hit a lot but she would also just cut me down for anything.Any little mistake I made would just be blown out of porportion; you were just not allowed to make any kid mistakes around her. I would drop a piece of fruit and it would be “Oh someone wants attention. Lets all stare at you now. You enjoying it? Lets keep staring the baby needs attention” and whoever was over would just be embarrassed. One time we were in Boston and an old drunk was staring at me ( I was about 13 and starting to develop and I had on my first pair of wedge heels ) and I was just looking back at him because I was, I guess, fascinated by how dirty he was and she said “I bet you like how he looks at you don’t you? Is that why you wore those shoes, your new high heels? You know they call those fuck me pumps. You know that don’t you? Do you want him to fuck you? Well that is what you are asking for when you look at someone like that.” And my step sister and my brother were both there and I remember just feeling so angry and just dispairing that I was only 13 and that I was never ever going to get away from her and that, no matter how much I hid, or ducked my head, or tried to not call attention to myself that I would never not be on her radar, because she wanted to spend her days breaking me apart, because she was not being loved enough by my dad. She also would tell me to get in the back seat, when she picked me up in the car, because looking at me sickened her. She was such a raging bitch. She was, actually, about my age now. I can’t imagine treating anyone that way, much less a child.
She and he divorced when I was 14 and the last time I spoke to her I actually told her, that what she did was sick, that she was abusive, and I actually told her to fuck off, something I never say to anyone.
I know this sounds really dysfunctional, but I am really proud of myself for saying that and I am not sorry at all, for telling it like it was. People like that, choppers, cruel people, they won’t change but by not standing up to them, you just die inside until you feel like you can never say a word. I remember hanging up the phone and just feeling really…full of light. Just like something in me was released. Grr. No more choppers in our lives, ladies!!!
dancingqueen-
good for you for telling her to F off! that’s not dysfunctional, that’s totally functional! that’s what you say to someone like her! you should be proud! a lot of 14-year-olds would have been too shy/frightened/cowed/self-critical to say that.
brava!
thanks for the support: can we coin a new term; giving someone “the functional f-u”. lol;)
“I am sorry I cannot wash the dishes, my foot is in a cast and my hand is in a splint.”
“Can you take the child to a doctor? He has 104 degree fever. No? You cannot take a few hours off? Really? I had surgery 48 hours ago, and still have stitches and I cannot carry him. No? OK, you are right, we do need your job, I will take him. I hope the doctor won’t be mad at me when I have the stitches taken out in a few days or that the stitches do not burst or something.”
I cannot even write more :(.
B
“They have this twisted view of how the world should be, and they have this insatiable need to control and manipulate. After I ended the relationship with this man, I just felt like my energy was sucked out, like I literally had to pick up myself piece by piece and reconstruct myself. Worse, they appear to have no remorse and think that they are entitled to what they are doing, and how they put down other people.”
You have written a great description of what it can be like when you’re involved with one of these creatures. Not only do they have no remorse, but no insight into the hurt they cause. Some even seem to think they have been *helpful*, and seem surprised at the “collateral damage” that is done in their efforts to pump themselves up.
Perhaps we should put into place some “emergency planning” around how to keep ourselves safe during these tornadoes and encounters with sink holes. I am sure much of what Natalie has written will be included in our survival kits!
Survival kits! Lol. Funny, but true. I wish I could have known these things a long time ago. I wish I could have read what NML had to say a long time ago. But I suppose there are reasons for lessons to be learnt this way. It’s just difficult these days. I don’t know if my heart can take another heartbreak. But I am better and stronger also these days. I still get intense anger pangs every now and then. Anyway, it´s the aftermath now. The worst has passed.
This article reminds me of this horrible terrible bad film called Boxing Helena in which a neurotic surgeon chops off his love interests limbs so she will always stay at his mercy.
Kim Basinger was to act in it and had to pay US$ 8 million when she changed her mind – which seems to be the best investment she ever made in her career.
So ladies, follow Kim´s lesson: get out asap when faced with a chopper!! Nothing, not even 8 million is worth it to have some idiot chop away at you!
Cherilyn Fenn played Helena. In the end the surgeon makes love to Helena’s limbless torso, really sickening!
Thank you so much for posting this. It was exactly what I needed to read. It’s exactly one year today since my ex chopped me out of his life and left me a raggedy shell of my pre-chopper self. Time, therapy, and reading your articles have really helped me through this year. Unfortunately, he has been trying to creep in and my bad memories of him have softened. This is just what I needed to read to remind me how low he made me feel and refocus.
Thank you so much for this article. I was wondering where I’ve been during the last 7 1/2 years of this relationship. I’ve been chipped away to a shell of my former self. All my energy and joi de vivre gone. My belief in love and myself…gone. But yet I stay. I don’t know why. We don’t live together, I don’t have any children. He tells me how easy I would be to replace, yet I stay. I think it’s time to stop looking at him and take a look at myself to figure out why I think it’s ok to be treated this way. I know better. 17 years ago I was engaged to my soul mate who loved and adored me. He died of lymphoma as we were planning our wedding. He died on my birthday. Maybe I feel no one could take his place so I’ll take whatever. I have to get out of this relationship before I totally dissapear. I’m exhausted.
Dear ILW, you HAVE to leave this horrible person, he is bringing no joy whatsoever into your life and you deserve so much more. No Contact is the only way to go. I have never felt better physically and emotionally since going NC and will never EVER want to go through that again. I realised how damaging his behaviour was when I started to feel physically unwell. I had always been quite a healthy person and over the last year of the relationship developed headaches, sleeplessness, and one very scary moment when I had palpitations and breathing difficulties and a doctor described it as a ‘panic attack’. I had never been like this before, even when I went through my divorce, and am usually a very level headed person who hates drama and conflict. All caused by the effects of this damaging behaviour. I was walking on eggshells and even when we went out on a date I never knew how the night would end…usually with me apologising for something totally ridiculous or silent treatment before the end of the night when he would then try to weasel himself to sit next to anyone else but me! I knew then that I had to flush this individual from my life forever. He was a living, walking talking germ filled, drama making, putrid pus head!
I am so glad you read this post and read this site. I posted earlier about my “chopper”. I Have two children with this person and am still married. I am doing the beast I can to get out of the situation.
I hope NML’s post and these responses have hit home.
Run! You can get out now, without kids. It gets harder to leave and even more complicated with children.
Do yourself a favor. Get out!! You will feel so relieved to get this monkey off your back!!!
I know it’s easier said than done, but good luck!!
I have a chopper at work. He’s intimidated by creativity so he chops. I find him pathetic. He is a big tall guy and I think it freaks him out that little ol me *actually* has good ideas. Lucky he has no influence on my work. He’s sort of a sad sack…
Going through this right now!!!! I married him 4 months ago like a fool. Help!!!!!!
I have been on the receiving end of chopping, but I came to the realization with the last AC that I am also guilty of this behaviour. We were both threatened by different things about each other, and while he liked to mock my PhD studies, poetry, my income, and my sanity in general, I thought he needed to be taken down a peg or two as well. I generally went after his own high opinion of himself and his materialism, with snide little comments.
I did do some work to realize that I was unable to feel that someone was “better” than me, whether better than me at something or just better socially or morally, without a terrible sinking feeling inside. When I was with people like the AC, or who I put up on a pedestal like him, it was a constant mess of trying to convince myself I was “as good” as him, and who-the-hell-does-he-think-he-is, and trying to be kind to someone I actually didn’t like very much. Without even any premeditation, I’d find myself getting aggressive, trying to tear them down off the pedestal.
Such is the awful hell of low-self-esteem and a habit of trying to get over it by feeling better or superior to others. You assume everyone else is doing the same, and when someone actually is doing the same (cue the AC, whose EUM traits mirror mine), you don’t bounce them like you should because you don’t want to reject someone so like yourself.
I also chopped at my one long-term partner. For years I justified my behaviour to myself because he lied about finances, struggled with alcoholism, and liked to tell me I was ‘crazy’ and ‘uptight.’ But a healthy woman would have stepped back from even beginning that relationship. I totally felt “poor me” (he also said I would never find anyone who would love me as he did, and I was terrified that was true) but so what? I let “poor me” motivate so many harsh words toward him, blaming him for my wretched state, it makes me shake my head to think of it now.
I don’t think I’m entirely out of these woods. I long for love and companionship but the kind of people I’ve been drawn to were the ones I found awe-inspiring (special-effects inducing). But that means I thought they were better than me, therefore threatening, and I’d eventually start “defending” myself.
I suspect that two years ago I wouldn’t have been able to write about my own part in “chopping” in my relationships, so that’s something.
In any case, my new roommate moves in tonight. I learned a lot the last go-round by having too many expectations from a roomie situation (even experiencing a bit of mutual chopping!) so this time, I have few expectations and aim only for respect and cheerfulness. Onward!
Magnolia,
I can’t say that I have done a lot of chopping but I will say that I had that experience once with a coworker. She was five years younger than me and she would always say defeatist things about her age, so that it felt like she was chopping me because I was older than her and if she thought that she was an undateable person because she was 40 and single, what to say about me because I was 45?
I found myself doing childish things like rolling my eyes when she went on, and saying pissy things that were dismissive and now I look back and I wish that I had been more mature. I should have just said “Maybe you are not aware of it, but when you cut yourself down you are also cutting me down and could you please not say things like that because it is not logical thinking.”
It is hard not to get sucked in to chopping back. I think that, at the first sign of the counter chop, we need to check ourselves:)
Excellent Nat, just excellent. I recently bounced a friend of more than a decade for this sort of nonsense. Naturally, she’s told anyone we know mutually that I’m a big ol’ meanie. This is sort of amusing, because if these people knew some of the things she’s said about them behind their backs, she’d be in, well….deep sh*t would be an understatement. Her speciality is “diagnosing” people with psychological problems (no, she’s not a therapist) – i.e. one of her friends had a vacation fling, therefor she is a “sex addict”, another doesn’t like her stomach, so therefor she is afflicted with “body dysmorphic disorder”. Honestly, it’s so creepy. Interestingly enough, this woman who is so concerned with everyone else’s alleged mental problems had to be hospitalized years ago because she had a nervous breakdown and was completely delusional. It was incredibly sad and I could never understand why she’d find other people’s problems funny – I mean, considering, you’d think she’d have some compassion for others. About eight months ago, her childhood friend was diagnosed with cancer (she now has a clean bill of health, thankfully!) and, being that she was very into The Secret at the time, she told her oldest friend that she’d brought cancer on herself with her negative attitude. No, really. Life is really, really too short to put with people like this.
Chopper=Narcissistic Personality Disorder, or some other Cluster B personality disorder. Most likely. Learning about these disorders has helped me a lot. There are people whose behavior you just can’t explain if you use common sense.
An amazing post. This was happening to me with my ex AC. In the honeymoon phase I was everything he was looking for in a woman and then slowly the chipping started very insidiously to begin with and then just blatantly outright and I could never understand how I had, in HIS eyes, become such a loser. I am a single parent raising two children working at a job I actually really enjoy in the health service. Have many wonderful colleagues who I socialize with and despite the usual everyday little setbacks to overcome thought I was doing pretty damn well under the circumstances. It started with my appearance, then he thought my job was causing a deterioration in our relationship (!) due to shift work. He thought that I should leave and take up a position which was more in tune with meeting his demands. He belittled the work I do and constantly reminded me that his ex wife was in charge of an office with four staff and had her own parking space in the city. I work in ICU at a busy teaching hospital but it was not thought highly enough. I was “nursey”. I had migrated to another country and was planning to save and go on a holiday to my homeland to reconnect with family I had not seen for 20 years to celebrate my 50th birthday. He told me I was a daydreamer and was never going to manage that financially. “the trouble with YOU is that you are a daydreamer, you will never do that, another of your stupid fantasies”. Well……I was given the silent treatment for two months…….he called to discuss the ‘relationship’..we met for coffee and reminded me again that he thought I was a ‘gonna’ person always gonna do something but never actually does it!!!!! I let him carry on and on with his stupid face telling me his ‘best'(??!!) thoughts of me. I stayed silent…and he was so smug till he asked what I was doing on the weekend. “Well…I booked the trip, I leave on Friday for six weeks to the U.K, passports are ready, tickets are ready and the kids are going with me too!!!!!! I wish I had a camera with me!! He asked why had I not invited him along!!!!! Unbelievable for him to think I would possibly risk the trip of a lifetime for my kids and myself to listen to any more of his demeaning comments. So glad I flushed twice to get rid of the bad smell.
Natalie,
You could not have hit it on the head harder! thank you for this as this is exactly what i allowed myself to deal with for 6 plus years (6 plus years too long) and although i am out, i am like the woman you speak of who is still somewhat reeling by the last thing that was said to me. (All because i shared your blog about special effects and future faking with his baby mama, still girlfriend or whatever she is).
the ironic thing is, SHE found out he was cheating on her, with me, and several others, contacted ME, asked me what had been going on with he and i. i told her all that i knew from the point of when they’d gotten together (and then some since we have a longer past than he and she), only to have his wrath come back to me in full fledge verbal abusiveness b/c she shared w/ him what we spoke of in what i had hoped was in confidence.
however, she, like myself for so long, needed to hear his side and give him the benefit of the doubt since he had (and still is) shown her a side that was so much different. i have told her, “of course he is not like this when he is with you! it’s a GAME w/ this dr jekyl and my hyde!” in checking on her and attempting to help w/her depression over this, i shared your blog about the truth behind special effects and future faking w/ her. he, once again got wind of this, and ripped into me saying i’m pathetic and that i should take my sob story elsewhere; to someone that cares as she does not.
mustering up all the strength i have, i didn’t respond and haven’t to other (worse) text messages, before this.
despite the fact it hurts to get these text messages, the reality is, it truly has nothing to do with me unless i allow it to, by way of either believing it and internalizing it and/or engaging in a war of text messages with the creep in an effort to clear my name (futile at this point). he can ‘chop me down’ all he wants; to project his deeply delusional and grandiose perceptions about himself that are so far from the truth onto me, turning it around to cut me down. it is about HIM and his desire to pin all his own discretions onto me (the others she’d contacted didn’t believe her). It is also an attempt to use me as a scapegoat on which to blame the cheating/abuse to get her back in his good graces, make me appear as some psychotic stalker who just can’t get over him and someone with whom he never promised anything to (like he promised her).
the last thing i said to her was that it is now her choice and that i did what she asked of me- presented MY truth in this horrific charade, accepted and owned MY part in it which was allowing it to happen and staying as long as i did, (DESPITE not knowing about her and the baby they’d had; he’d told me his ‘aunt’ had moved in…bullsh**) and that anything else here on out is on her. i cannot and will not be the recipient of some sociopath’s wrath in an effort to be the saviour of another victim of his demeaning and chaotic, very hurtful and out of control ways. i was twice, not once, a victim of it and that, although it says alot about me and the work i have to do on myself, was when i said..ENOUGH!
bless you Natalie!!!
Yes, indeed, Natalie, you’re spot on again with this one. I remember very well that my first husband was a chopper. Way back then I was in my early 20’s and had no idea why he was always beating me down, criticizing me every time I opened my mouth as if I was an idiot, eventually turned to physical violence. The verbal and psychological abuse escalated to physical abuse. I left his arse when our daughter was a toddler. I knew even then that I did not deserve the insults that he loved to throw at me. I realize now, not then, that his ego could not deal with the fact that I’d had more formal education than he and he hated that fact. He would constantly try to insinuate that I was an educated fool and he had these “street smarts” that were more important in life. Whatever. I tried to stick it out for two years and when I was fed up with his cruelty I exited with our daughter. He was not going to ever relate to me differently because of his inferiority complex. I never looked back.
Excellent. Every word of this one was for me. I can’t thank you enough for validating my experience and helping me see the way this behavior has undermined my self esteem. You’re the best, Nat.
I had a Chopper in my life a few years ago, I dated him for 2 years, and at the time I thought I was in love, but now I look back and I laugh until my sides hurt at what a total and complete loser he is! When we met, I was 5 years younger, and had just started my own business while still working a day job, while he was unemployed and a virtual hermit with no friends. But he wasn’t beneath “borrowing” plenty of money from me, including for a place ticket to Nantucket. Early on, he made comments about my weight and so what did I do? I slaved away at the gym for hours and lost 40lb – but that didn’t stop the comments coming. I realize now that probably sent him over the edge in his insecurity, especially when he said “I don’t want you to get too hot – you’ll run off with another guy”. He would make comments in bed about what great bodies other women had and said I wasn’t good in bed because I “wasn’t naturally athletic”. He appeared horrified that I had any hair down there and told me how his ex girlfriend always kept on top of it with laser hair removal. It sends chills down my spine that I put up with that kind of behavior – all my friends and family were telling me he was a loser and bad for me – but somehow I couldn’t let go of him – until I did…one day I just looked at him and said “its over”. I had had enough. I rarely even think of him now and will never, ever tolerate any kind of put-downs from a man ever again.
Been there. Oh boy. Chop chop. Mind effery and manipulation.
Actually had a coworker call me “super therapist ” the other day during a discussion at work regarding physical therapy/occupational therapy. That was his argument, because I disagreed with his viewpoint. Name calling. Chop.
This is the perfect description of an abusive Narcissist. I should know…my father is both a Narcissist and a Chopper. It’s been 50 years and he still does this crap…to me, my mom and my brother. They are extremely dangerous and frankly, living on their own little planet in another dimension of reality. RUN…as fast as you can…your life emotionally and psychologically, sometimes physically, truly depends on you getting out.
I have been following this blog for awhile now ever since a bad breakup 6 months ago and every article hits home… but this one really jumped out at me.
This article describes my ex perfectly! What’s crazy is the longer we are apart, the more he tries to chop me down- even though he’s the one who broke up with me and is now with someone else!
It finally reached a laughable point a few weeks ago. I just landed my DREAM job after working my behind off for it. Unfortunately, this job puts me in a direct working relationship with my ex, a small, temporary price to pay for a once in a lifetime opportunity. Anyways, a couple weeks ago we had to go over some business details. While having this short conversation, I of course explained to him that I now had this new job. No congratulations from him, no nothing. A few minutes later, near the end of the convo, completely out of the blue, he blurts out “you got a job, that’s kind of good I guess” (um, thanks?) and then he goes on to say “you must be really stressed out” I explained how unstressed I am and how much fun I am having in my new position. Apparently, this was not the answer he was hoping for because he then proceeded to spend the next two minutes telling me how stressed out I am and how awful it sounds for me to be so stressed. Um hello?!? Did you not hear me?!! It’s as if he couldn’t deal with seeing me happy finally when he is still unhappy about where his life is, so even in my best of moments, he created the most absurd issues to get on me about! What a piece of work.
I really hope others who might be hurting from a chopper realize how self involved and delusional that person is.
Natalie, thank you for the Chopper visual and description. I’ve experienced my share of EUM/AC/MM’s but the Chopper was the worst I’ve ever experienced. EVER. Everything you described was precisely what I experienced. It was the worst mind-effery I ever experienced. I am a popular teacher, he isn’t. He’s brutish and intolerable. I’m happy and love my students. He chopped my teaching into shreds. I am a trusted faculty leader, president of the academic senate for 6 consecutive years. He told me I was a failure and nobody trusted me. He has never been a trusted faculty leader nor president of the academic senate. He was so simmering with his own self-loathing, failure, and inadequacy, projecting his every shortcoming onto me. It is really difficult to revisit this right now but it is truly important. Geez Natalie, this is an extremely scary, mind-blowing post. You described everything I lived. He still tries to take his insecurities out on me. But, I’m gone. Although, I want to smack him upside the head for putting me through his pathological wringer. He’s just become pathetic and most folks realize he’s pathological,although still teaching. I got called out by a senior faculty member when I went to her weeping that I didn’t have any friends. She hooked me up with a therapist that day. I need to connect with her and say thank you. And thank you Natalie. This Chopper stuff is beyond scary. Anybody hanging with a Chopper needs a therapist, Natalie, and a jump start on life. I have jumper cables. It’s tough to get out. They bury you in their pathology, even though you don’t share the pathology. It’s like quick sand. This one really hit home Nat. I so lived it.
Elements of this is definitely true for my EUM. Last year we began breaking up because he went from saying I was amazing etc, to suddenly criticizing everything I did, and the criticism was particularly hurtful (about my clothes and appearance, a major sensitive spot for me). The weird thing was, at the beginning of the relationship he’d told me how elegant I dressed, then all of a sudden he was saying with venom ‘don’t you ever think about how people perceive you? about what they’re thinking when they look at you?’ and after a haircut ‘next time you may as well let me do it for the same result, it’ll be cheaper’. This was several weeks of comments like this, so I prepared to leave and he turned back into Mr Wonderful – if I ever bring this up with him he claims I misunderstood ‘a joke’ about getting my hair cut and that I was being too sensitive. Nevermind the systematic criticism he slung at me.
Nat, B, and all others,
You are so right! These guys are blood suckers and life energy suckers; they are character disordered human beings. My H tried to suck the life out of me for 16 years and it didn’t work, just about though, so he walked out on our family with OW in tow and I fell apart. The last two years of my life have been dealing with the angry manipulator that won’t let the D end that he filed for. He is now trying to control me thru the courts–won’t happen!! I have a GREAT lawyer!! I thought it was a midlife crisis and may well be but other forces are at work here as well. I read a book “In Sheep’s Clothing” by George Simon and it really hit me as to what was really going on in my life–it was not fun to find that out. I always knew something was wrong but could not put a label on it–now I can. I now know how to deal with him if and when I have to. I have gone NC for 2.5 months and it is the best I have felt for 19 years, though I do miss the man I THOUGHT THAT I MARRIED. I will get over it in due time–I am strong and he will not get the better of me!!!
Thanks Natalie for posting this for all to see. I never thought of him as a Chopper before–very good label for him and them.
Hugs for all here. OceanLady
Good for you! Keep going. I´ve never been married although my last relationship was just horrible. Makes me dread the thought of being married. He was a liar, cheater, user, chopper … smorgasbord! I think it’s important that you get the power back or feel empowered at some point after a seriously bad relationship. Best of luck.
Hugs!
Read that book; I felt kind of ill after,it was so disturbing.
Sammy, you absolutely should into the divorce laws in your state as another reader said. He can very well owe you alimony and child support which will allow you to get back on your feet. These jerks never change, trust me…
‘A Chopper wants to cut you down because it builds them up.’ Natalie, I’ve been reading BR for two years. I’ve ordered all your books which were amazing. You so helped me out of the depths of despair. I’m signing up for your e-self esteem course. This article really, really, really hit home. How could I believe him, when the objective record contradicted his protestations. It was like I was a flat earther! His father proclaimed that the dryer was working and the clothes were dry. The clothes were wet. See how wacky this stuff can get if you let it? There’s no way him or his father could make the wet clothes dry. No matter how much they tried to convince me. The frigging clothes were wet. It’s like la-la-la land.
For all the exOWs, it’s the same story. Just remember the clothes really are wet, the dryer doesn’t work. It was the most scariest moment of my life when I listened to him and his father tell me the clothes were dry. The flipping clothes were wet. Choppers are the scariest people on the planet. They turn life up-side down. Ladies, Natalie is so spot on on this one, run like your life depended on it because it does. These types are pathological and scary. You know when your there when you can’t distinguish up from down, wet or dry, or who are friends or whether he is isolating you. Hang on to everything you think is real, it is. He isn’t.
I’ve had my share of choppers to varying degrees but one stands out as textbook. He used to criticize my hair, my make up or lack of, my clothes, my shoes, my eating habits, my driving, my parenting, my interaction with his friends, the way I ate in a restaurants, how I was in bed, what I liked to eat, the list is endless. He would use what other people said to him (made up?) to prove his point, like a woman friend of his saying I was very unfriendly and she worried about him being with me, or that another friend offered to take me to her stylist to ‘fix’ my hair, another said she would take me shopping to help me find the right clothes ( his harem, apparently). He told me he wouldn’t take me to a restaurant because I might embarrass him by having bad manners and that he had a hard time believing anything I said because I was wrong so often. Then later he would deny saying these things. He said so many things meant to cut me down it could fill a notebook. I became a contortionist to try and be what he liked and to avoid more criticism , but no matter what, if I showed up being the perfect example of what he wanted he would never give me a compliment, but ignored me instead. I became very insecure. It did a number on me. He was nothing special really, but he felt better making me out to be a steaming pile of shit, and I turned into one to make him like me. That is a sad thing to admit about myself that I gave the time of day to this creep. Never, ever, again. I am so sick of people who behave like this. My newest challenge is to disregard people like this with grace. I had a weekend full of challenges for some reason, as people like this were all around me. I wasn’t so graceful about it….I called a guy who insulted me a ‘bitch’ (he was rudely telling me my place as a woman in the male dominated sport I play). Later, I felt bad for stooping to his level.
“Unhappy with themselves and passive aggressively simmering with resentment, anger, and frustration, in their mind you ‘make’ them feel bad about themselves….”
“It becomes an attempt to please the un-pleasable..”
Firstly, it breaks my heart to see how many of us have had to deal with these miserable creatures. How it break us, how they leave us without energy, faith or hope. We are the stronger ones here.
I found that with the exEUM, it was like I was trying to please the un-pleasable. Well, Im not white or brunette, so I am sure I wasnt good enough. I dont have a great a**, so he could do better than me. I even once heard “My friends would think I am crazy for dating an Indian..but its all about the person,isisnt?”. BS! Well, I wasnt one to keep quiet to THAT! At the end, during one of those moment when I felt confused I even said “I feel like you are not impressed with who I am…and I dont even know why..”.
Eventually, according to the d-bag, I was “too different”. OH YES! I smile, Im happy, I am social and have friends, I dont complain about my life or my body, I treat every person with respect and decency, I dont seek attention online, dating is not a social activity to get an ego stroke, I dont talk about my exs or bitch about them…LOL.It was THIS realisation that made me believe that he was too insecure and perhaps didnt know how to cope with someone like me, who is ok with life (on a bad day) and feels blessed (on a good day).
I know that if it had gone on longer, he would have started to criticize me. Makes me laugh!
Like NML said, they dont know how to receive love, forgetting getting it from them. How unhappy and sad and envious they must be of the honesty, kindness, empathy and other wonderful virtues we possess.
We are beautiful beings, they are no where close to what we deserve.
PurpleLily, my ex-fiance said the same! We’d been together for two years when he chose to tell me he’d ever end up with someone non-white. It’s ‘different, and my family have always been white, so your foreign name doesn’t fit with that’. And he still couldn’t see that what he’d said was wrong.
Like you, I am grateful for every day. He envied me this, often asking why I smiled so much. These men are emotional vampires. They can’t stand joy or happiness because THEY CAN’T FEEL ANYTHING and we are so much better without them.
My Chopper criticized me in little ways. Due to our long distance relationship, we’d made an arrangement in terms of when, where, and how often to hang out that he seemed ok with (no protests, no “I can’t handle this, let’s break up”). When my situation changed, I changed our arrangement so that we could hang out a little more, but it wasn’t enough for him. One day, he blew up said something weird about “forcing him into this.”
I think a self-aware person would have realized immediately that he wasn’t capable of managing a long-distance relationship and opted out if he weren’t happy. Little did I know, he chose to stay, but didn’t accept the current status of our relationship as it was, and would end up blaming me for making him unhappy.
I wish I had found this blog years ago…
understatement of the year:)
Dear Natalie
You’ve done it again; you’ve entirely hit the nail on the head of describing word for word the relationship I was in for 8 years and 6 months out of. I needed to read this today more than you’ll know. Thankyou for getting me through the last 6 months.
Yes, the ex did this to me. After going AWOL, he sent me a cold email breaking things off and explaining that two people with depression can’t be together because “they would always set it off in the other”. SAY WHAT NOW? I never once blamed him for my illness yet he tried blaming me for his lack of self-confidence and subsequent breakdown. As in the words of Bridget Jones, what a f*ckwit.
This is often a precursor to physical violence, as I experienced. He criticised my looks, how I dressed, my cleaning, how slowly I rode a bike, the presents I bought him, how I treated his son, my family – and on, and on and on. He made stuff up that made no sense and there was no reason to. Yes, he did have an inferiority complex but it didn’t make him humble!
I’m well out of it now except to warn you to be careful of how much you accept or ignore or try to understand.
I don’t have any of that in my life anymore. Not because I’m a better person but because I have boundaries, I only asociate with worthwhile people and I do think these choppers are somewhat rare rather than everwhere. I hope so.
The man has never criticised me, implied any criticism, or put me down. That’s not to make him out to be a saint – it’s the LEAST you should expect! And vice versa. We shouldn’t be sniping at them either. I went through an unsteady period when I was wanting to goad him because he was being too nice, but thankfully I got over myself.
Grace I do think they (choppers) are rare. Throughout my ‘career’ of dating eu’s, I’ve only encountered one chopper. Anyone that will bully someone and then act like it’s that persons fault because they didnt stand up to them is a total ac/chopper.
Here’s another thing that I consider ‘chopping’, telling someone that they are needy when all they want are the normal things everyone wants in a relationship. That is chopping.
“Here’s another thing that I consider ‘chopping’, telling someone that they are needy when all they want are the normal things everyone wants in a relationship. That is chopping.”
Thank you for saying that. I got that accusation a lot.
SM – I had to laugh and completely agree. During one of our conversations he mentioned that he tended to attract needy women. I responded that I wasn’t needy and he said, “ahh, we’ll get to that,” while making the gesture of bringing his thumb and forefinger together. We never did “get to it,” as he changed the subject to talk more about himself.
But I remember thinking, I just want the need the normal things of a healthy relationship. Now, it is so clear!
What a great post! I have recently got out a set up with a man like this – thanks to this website. It was amasing how insecure I felt when I was with him – and how I thought that I had to convince him I was ok to feel good again. What it really took was not seeing him, letting him think what he liked about me and time. I feel better the longer I havn’t seen him. Even though sometimes I still lose track and think I miss him! But I sure dont miss feeling miserable and insecure!
Natalie, as always this post hit home for me. I was involved with a chopper for a year.
He systematically destroyed me. It was a barrage of attacks on my professional reputation, working too late, working too much, critising everything. He would often accuse me of the most profoundly inconceivable things. He had extreme paranoia. In truth, he was the one who got fired from a senior public position for incompetence when we were together along with various other misdemeanours. It was like he was projecting his own failure on to me.
The thing that I hated the most was the way I behaved when I was backed into a corner and had to fight back. When he went on a vengeful and often paranoid attack he accused me of everything under the sun. I am am a quiet sort of person who wouldnt hurt a fly and almost never raise my voice. But when ne did this to me I never knew I could be so angry in return. My response was to often stooping to his level. That is not the person I am or want to be. I am embarrassed.
I know that when you love someone, you feel inspired to be a better person, no lower yourself, sell out and end up stooping to their level. A very good lesson which I will always remember!
I should add that the chopper I was dealing with had traits that presented like Boarderline Personality Disorder – although never diagnosed. Reading about BPD helped me work through what some of this behavior is about.
My Chopper is my own mother. I am her youngest and witnessed her doing the same thing she did to my 2 older siblings to me. I shouldn’t be surprised much, but this will be the last time. Have to be okay with walking away from my own mother?
Ironically (not really) from the few stories my mom has told me, her mother was her chopper too.
I feel so sorry for her, I really do. I am fearful of leaving because it will get worse for her and I know I will probably never turn back. How can I?
Can totally relate Sabrina. There’s nothing worse than waking up one day to realise that you’ve not married your father but your mother. Never satisfied, never happy with anything for more than a few minutes and nothing, including you, will ever be good enough for her.
Detach in love. Some people are best loved from afar. Only you can decide. after repeated failed attempts to limit contact and institute healthy boundaries, I had to come to the painful conclusion that she will never be well enough to respect me or my boundaries. The hard part is knowing that there is a wonderful person in there somewhere. The easy part is knowing that they do not want to change, are often completely incapable of it, and, more importantly, their behaviour is creating too much toxic fallout for you.
Do your best, release the guilt and take the space you need. It is time for you to live your life and you cannot live hers for her as much as you might love her.
I really needed to read this article. I’ve been trying to figure out what the hell happened with a relationship that just ended… I wondered if I was going crazy.
Thank you for writing it.
Oooooh, yes. This one resonates big time. I was in a relationship with a guy who started chopping to make himself feel better about the fact he was cheating on me. We went to the pub. I sat down and the first thing he said was ‘You’ve still got your coat on. You always keep your coat on, why do you do that? It’s annoying.’ Then later that day he said ‘I wonder what you’d look like as a blonde’. I pretty much knew something wasn’t right and he was projecting his guilt onto me.
Fast forward to the last EUM/AC. The minute he started seeing someone else at the same time he started chopping… ‘Your arms are too thin’, ‘you’re controlling & manipulative’ (sorry?!), ‘you’re lying’ (no, mate … it’s the other way around). Turns out he was seeing a gym bunny with ridiculously huge biceps 😉
Trying to make you feel insecure for no apparent reason is always a sign that something major is up and they need to project onto you to make themselves feel better.
The EUM/AC tried to contact me via text at the weekend. I didn’t reply. No contact since May.
Let’s stay strong, wise and beautiful – just like you, Natalie xx
Kate right on. Chopping is also a sign that they are either cheating or are losing interest in you. A healthy person would just breakup when they lose interest, not start picking you apart. When my exhusband started cheating on me, he accused me of being too American (he’s german), he didnt like it that my hair was always styled, and I caught him looking at me in disgust one time when I was in the shower (and I worked out all the time was in shape and very toned not to mention I was young). So go figure, these were stupid stupid things.
Interesting, I got the ‘too American’ thing from my Dutch boyfriend. Funny thing is, I’m not even American!
I’ve been with a chopper for 27 years, married for 23. Currently involved in the long process of leaving him. Choppers have different styles…this one is a subtle picker, or a chipper, as another poster also mentioned. A perfectionist/obsessive complusive in some areas of his life, he is compensating for a low self image and must bring me down as well. I also believe he is a narcissist. He is like a guided missile submarine, with radar, being careful usually hurt only in private, and in a very targetted manner. Don’t show a vulnerability to one of these individuals, or they learn it and attack. Absolutely everything is your fault…if it rained on vacation, if a child faired poorly in a class, if they’ve left their room a mess…it’s all you.
He will engage in all manner of criticism…someone’s decorating style, how they choose to prioritize their spending, the barbequeue fair at my parent’s cookout (at least they invite us regularly, unlike his parents who live 5 miles from us who he has no relationship with)
It got serious when he began picking at our oldest child and trying to control her choice of career. He wanted her to choose law, which, at the moment in the U.S., is an expensive advanced degree with a pessimistic job outlook. She wanted clinical psychology, and has remained on the dean’s list throughout undergrad and will go on to a masters. He began to routinely berate and belittle her wonderful accomplishments (but only to me), and be critical of her chosen path. He also said I chose it for her, and was highly involved in selecting her major (???). He stated that her university was ‘easy’, that’s why she’d done so well (she’s in the honors program at a top 50 university)
I knew he was bad, but this was beyond anything he had ever engaged in. It was so irrational, and without any logic, it showed how truly sick he was.
Run from these individuals ladies! they are poisonous! They show this trait early on!
Im horrified to hear that he would speak this way of his own child’s achievements. What she has done is nothing short of a massive life achievement – a part she has chosen and is succeeding in. Good on her.
And good on you for standing up to him. As a child who comes from a mother who never stood up for herself or me to a dad who beat and disrespect, you have NO idea how much positive impact this will have your kids and their futures.
Made my day, thank you.
I am ashamed not to have left earlier, but I just couldn’t do it. I wasn’t ready.
I really laid into him about those comments, but I waited a while, because I was so shocked and didn’t have the right words. I said, criticize and pick at me all you want, but leave her alone, you pathetic SOB, who did so poorly in college. I then asked where he got his data about college rankings, relative ease of programs (he said public universities are MUCH easier that private…HA HA HA HA HA tell that to an engineer, a doctor, lawyer, CPA or ANYONE who went to a public university.)
The crazy thing about him is that he has soooo many good qualities and he has so many people hoodwinked, but many are catching on. Daughter #1 is getting onto his shenanigans.
sooo much more to say but it would be a novel.
These are terrible, terrible experiences and I hope each of you are giving yourselves positive affirmations all the time to counteract this negativity.
My mother is a Chopper—and at 94, still going strong. At one point she had gained a lot of weight and was no oil painting herself, but would sit in public places making vicious comments about passersby. Anyone was grist for her mill, the wider the net, the better. Even at my father’s funeral, she was chopping my sister & me in front of the mourners.
It’s taken years to shake off the negative messages—affirmations in lipstick on the mirror, notes pinned to doors and walls, good friends and career—and I found, when the MM used to compliment me, not only did I not need that kind of validation, I used to think to myself, “And this means what?” In the moment, I would worry that I was growing cynical, but looking back I think, too bad I didn’t asked out him loud. Those compliments meant zilch.
Lesson learned: Build-ups and put-downs can both be a means to a very self-centered end.
My ex-fiance went from thinking I was the best thing he’d ever seen to criticising me for being foreign, not drinking and not having enough friends on Facebook. On one occasion (a few months away from the wedding) he told me he didn’t know if he could be with someone who didn’t like fairground rides. Talk about dumb.
It’s been a tough time, but I see now that Choppers think so little of themselves that they have to destroy people around them, and often those are the people who love them the most (typical narcissistic behaviour). I endured months of being told what I was not, having him exploit all the insecurities I have about myself (I don’t have a lot, but like everybody I have some) and then using any opportunity to use these against me. It’s abuse.
I’m so much happier being out of this now, knowing that I am enough, that I am a wholehearted, giving person, and that I’m not filled with poison like he is.
This describes a couple of my exes to a TEE; it’s actually quite scary. The last significant boyfriend I had called me a ‘fucking idiot’ because, when I was at his house, I dropped some food on the floor.
It wasn’t just me, either. His obsessive/perfectionist tendencies made his colleagues (they ran a company) insecure. Of course they’d get things wrong, so he’d step in and save everyone – well, why wouldn’t he? He was cleverer and more driven than everyone else. Not that’d he’d accept that everyone’s drivers and measures of success are different, of course.
When I turned 30, he asked me how I felt about getting older and got angry – genuinely angry – when I said ‘I feel OK about it, actually. No, really. I’m happy’. Why? Because HE had a shit time turning 30 and thought everyone else should, too. Hahahaha! NO.
That’s not even the half… I’ve never been so glad someone dumped me.
Wow. Now everything makes sense regarding my experience. He swore, I mean SWORE, was a skanky party girl who cheated on everything and everyone and slept with every Tom, Dick (no pun intended…) and Harry. This is TOTALLY the opposite of my character and who I am as a woman. But, like the article says, I was already emotionally invested in the guy and was sucked in. I have been struggling ever since, even though I know none of the stuff he said or thought is true. Now I know it was all about him and what he thinks of himself and his girlfriend. I’ve written some posts regarding some court records I stumbled across this summer, validating my theory that he and his girlfriend fooled around during her marriage (LONG story). The trouble is, what I’m struggling with is, I think I unfortunately (and by accident) validated his thoughts by him catching me cycling/walking past his house while taking a short cut to the neighborhood library. I’m sure he’s convinced now his opinion of me is correct. I KNOW it’s not, and I’m working on not caring what the loser thinks of me. He’s out of my life (4 months now) and I want nothing more to do with him. It’s just embarrassing to have been seen, ya know? I know I’m not crazy, delusional, desperate, but I think I did that partly because at the time I still missed him. Cutting him off cold turkey was very very hard and I know I did the right thing, but I think my ‘psycho’ moments were the result of something similar to withdrawal symptoms from addiction. It was kind of a shock to wake up the next morning and not have anyone to visit, ya know?
So, now that he’s probably convinced I’m in fact the kind of person he thought I was (even though I’m not) he’s reaping the benefits at my expense. Do you have any idea how incredibly infuriating that is?? But how can any of his life be real? He tried cheating on his girlfriend with me, probably told her all sorts of lies about me to maintain the relationship (I could KICK myself for being ‘psycho’ LOL) and will no doubt go his merry happy way while getting away with something he should have never gotten away with. He’s claimed his girlfriend is ‘the love of his life’ and he’s getting ready to retire in a month, ‘looking forward to his new life’. Sheezuz, how and why do these people get away with what they do??
I guess the secret to letting this go is to continue to live an authentic life, be kind, friendly, and REAL to everyone I meet. But DANG am I struggling with frustration!
Wow, this really hit home for me. Thank you Natalie for writing this post. I have just gotten out of a crazy ‘relationship’ with an EUM. I finally found the strength to leave after almost 2 years of ambiguity/non-stop games etc. I have been following your blog for awhile now, and it has really helped.
Reading this really opened my eyes to the feelings of how my EUM used to make me feel. He would often chop me down, and make me feel bad whenever he was feeling bad. Or, if I was feeling GOOD about myself, he’d try and take that feeling away from me. He would never really be truly happy for me. There was one time where I had landed a job of my dreams, which I had worked so hard to get. And he turned it around and made me feel like I OWED him some credit?! Or when I’d be excited to share my writing work, he knew how much it meant to me and he’d always act as if it didn’t mean anything at all just to ruin any feelings of happiness I had.
He’d often say things like “Oh, you’re doing so well, you’ve transformed etc etc…”As if he had something to do with my ‘transformation’. Like I was so bad I needed to be ‘transformed’ in the first place?! If I shared with him any problems with my work/family, he’d turn it around and manipulate things and give me an I-told-you-so attitude.
And I remember many times that when I had shared with him about things from my past, it always would come up in arguments and he’d used everything I ever told him against me!! Esp when it came to my past relationships. It would leave me with a horrible, ugly feeling in the pit of my stomach. Made me feel sick.
There would always be those backhanded comments about me and my past relationships/ or comments on guys that I had dated in the past. The comments would come out of nowhere, but left me feeling terrible. He’d always say he was ‘joking’ or ‘kidding’ but deep down I knew he meant the things he said.
The worst part was that there were times when I actually believed him! I allowed him to plant doubt in my head abt myself and my capabilities.
I was so blind, that I never really took the time to pay attention to those gut feelings of mine. When he was upset/depressed about things and I was in a good mood, he’d often do something to make me feel bad/punish me in a way. He’d always bring me down just cos he could, and use me like an emotional punching bag.
He often said things like I’d cheat on him…but I knew that deep down, he was the insecure one.
When I told him recently that I wanted out of this ‘relationship’, he turned it around and said it was because it would save me from cheating on him, and then made comments about me already seeing someone at my new job…..
I feel sad when I think back on those moments, and each time he ‘broke’ me little by little. I’m glad that I now have the strength to move on and leave, and hopefully STAY AWAY from such a person.
It feels good to read all these comments, at least I know that I’m not alone. Thanks Natalie!:)
Natalie..HOW do you always manage to hit the nail right on the head?! I wish I could tell personalities like you do..I can’t and thus end up suffering. I don’t know if I ever shall be able to. I pick the wrong guys and then its all a nightmare. Please help. Please keep writing.
I’ve been reading these posts for a long time and this one hit home hard! I’ve been in an on/off relationship with what I now perceive to be a “chopper”. This man would pump me up, make me feel special, tell me what a good person I am and in the same breath, tell me I’m not parenting my kids right, compare his kids to mine, tell me he could run circles around me in my career, laugh at me if I didn’t know something…and the list goes on. He would even apologize for dumb things that he knew didn’t need an apology. Just to make me look like I’m an unreasonable person. I just realized in the past 4 years I’ve been with him, he’s never once asked how my kids were doing, and showed no effort in getting to know them. I got this “chopper” post the same day I came to the realization that it just wasn’t worth the punches I was taking. Thank you Natalie!!!!
I think the whole concept of a “Chopper” is basically the same as a person who is a Gaslighter. They are one in the same.
A Chopper aka a Gaslighter, is an indivdual (with narcisistic tendencies) who uses gaslighting techniques.
It’s deliberate psychological abuse and manipulation to control how you think, how you feel about yourself and well…to control you COMPLETELY.
It’s taken from the 1944 movie called “Gaslight” where the husband drives his wife insane by deliberately manipulating her into thinking she’s not seeing the things she’s seeing or not experiencing the things she’d experience.
Highly reccomend anyone in here to see this movie because it seems like a good portion of the women here have experienced men who know about this technique and know how to use it effectively.
You know you are being gaslighted when:
1 – You feel sabotaged but can’t explain it.
2 – You’re the one “needing” to apologize even though you did nothing wrong.
3 – You second guess yourself and feel a lot of draining confusion.
4 – You constantly feel like you have to prove yourself.
5 – You shoulder a lot of the blame in the relationship.
6 – Guilt follows you no matter what you do.
7 – It’s often implied you are inconsiderate, disrespectful, or too sensitive.
8 – You often defer to the other person’s take on a situation or matter.
9 – Life feels out of whack, but you can’t pinpoint the cause.
10 – As you think back, you remember being more carefree and confident.
11 – Lying seems easier to avoid drama or explanations.
12 – You feel you can’t defend yourself verbally or emotionally anymore.
13 – You find yourself accepting weird or bad behavior in the other person as normal.
14 – Confrontation with the other person has them offering a reasonable explanations and making you feel bad for questioning them.
source: http://thinklikeablackbelt.com/blog/gaslighting-is-someone-using-this-trap-on-you/
Yep, had a few choppers in my life and it ALWAYS had to do with soemone unhappy with their life and level of accomplishment who had to “cut me down” to their size. These folks are debilitating; leading you to second guess yourself. The only chopper I allow on the premises these days is the one I use to split my firewood with. @ Sam: please, please, please get out of your situation! Not only are you being harmed, but what about your kids? Kids learn how to act from watching their parents? What is this guy teaching them?!
@Robin Yes! I was involved in a casual relationship with a Chopper. I didn’t want a boyfriend and Lord knows I didn’t want him to be my boyfriend. Well, after a couple of months of fun hooking up, he proceeds to tell me all that’s wrong with me and why I could never be his girlfriend. He said I was too nice and docile. Then I call him out on some disrespectful BS and now Im too argumentative and full of drama. Oh please!
These men get a kick out of watching women jump through hoops, bend and change to try to get their approval and attention. It does no good to try to “stand up” to these men, because they want to know they got under your skin. Best thing is to ignore completely or appear to be unphased.
after a year of extreme highs and lows with my “prince charming” – ha, i did some research about why he might be acting this way or more importantly why do i feel SO HORRIBLE all the time. i found the gaslighting/narcissist stuff – i told him – very excitedly, i might add, that i knew what was wrong with him and we could fix it. DO NOT CONFRONT THEM WITH THE FACT THEY MAY HAVE A PROBLEM. DANGER. DANGER. he seemed fine, we proceeded to the very nice restaurant we had made plans to go to – halfway thru dinner when i got up to go to the restroom – you guessed it – GONE. these men are riduculous. it didn’t end there – of course – i hadn’t started reading BR yet. it went on for another few months – until, he moved to another state, to live with another woman(had been planning it all along) – apparently, that lasted a few years. i recenlty recived a text from him, “hope you are well.” i am now – you big toad. i just deleted. these types are a piece of work. RUN – the other direction. i wasted so much time…on nothing.
Years after the worst breakup I ever had, and it still hurts to read this because it was so true of the dynamic with my ex, near the end. He didn’t explicitly verbalize disapproval, but I could feel it in the silences, in the way he’d look at me sometimes. How he’d overcompensate with affection for the time he no longer wanted to spend with me.
I just wanted to post this comment to point out that sometimes you don’t need tangible evidence. Sometimes the one you love can make you feel like s**t without saying a word, ESPECIALLY when you’ve been open with them and they know your weaknesses and insecurities very well.
If your loved one’s making you feel bad – even if you can’t explain why – stop and reevaluate the relationship you’re in. With that person, and with yourself. If I’d have done that instead of worrying about how I could get my ex’s approval, I could have saved myself immense heartbreak and a lot of time and energy wasted doubting myself and all the amazing things I have to offer a potential partner later down the line.
Years later and I’m still battling with insecurities over what this ex did to me. The extent and endurance of emotional ramifications from such a short period period of time blows me away. I told myself when I was hurting over what my ex was and wasn’t doing that I can get over the hurt. It’s not a big deal, I’m a big girl, I’ve gotten over being hurt before….the relationship will get better. I was so, so wrong. If I’d have known that that ex’s cruel behavior could do this to me I’d have fled months before he left me.
I hope women dealing with a Chopper that read this are motivated to put a stop to it or leave ASAP. When a Chopper wins, the loss to you can devastating. I’m scared sometimes that this pain will never go away.
Oh my goodness.. escaped a relationship with a chopper about 6 months ago and this post describes exactly what I went through. The range and level of verbal, emotional and spiritual abuse was just staggering. Apparently I was clumsy, awkward, unfocused, had failed to be a good Christian because of having previous boyfriends before him, thoughtless with other people’s feelings, suffcatingly insecure,’full of toxicity’ yada yada yada… when i told him that none of my friends and family saw any of these as characteristics i had, he came back with that classic ‘but they don’t know you like I do’.
The biggest mistake I made was not trusting my gut feeling, and just accepting his judgements of me. I’m so thankful I got out and I hope he sorts himself out…. but frankly it’s not my problem any more. I’m working on building my self esteem so that i will never get blindsided by a chopper or narcissist again.
Thanks for you wonderful blog, Natalie, and AMEN to healthier dating and relationship experiences in future!!
“when i told him that none of my friends and family saw any of these as characteristics i had, he came back with that classic ‘but they don’t know you like I do’.”
Touche, I got ‘well, they’re all just being nice (meaning, fake)’ as in, he was the only one with the guts to tell me how it really was.
I have to say that this article belongs to top 10 of this blog. See, the whole experience l have had with dating and relationships, l have never met a chopper, so when l finally met him, l was first confused, because this form of assclownery was unbeknownst to me. At the beginning, as Nat described it, it almost felt like fairy tale – fast forwarding was in high speed, and the chemistry was unbeliveably high. Yet, that was the sign to me already that “watch out, more shit to come”
And then it started. I was, in early stage of dating, being told l am dumb, not that good looking or hot, l don´t click well with people, l am boring as hell, lm demanding, dangerous, bossy and many other negative characteristics, that l didn´t resonate with me, because l know l am not those things. The he took a liberation to use very bad language and since l didn´t sleep with him, l was also called something like teaser, liar and time waister. It almost made me laugh, because this experience was so bizarre, as if it was from some weird cartoon. Also, the hidden anger situ, as Nat mentions, was very accurately there, so ten points to this article explaining this anomaly:) And right you are Nat, as well for this advice – as soon as you detect some sort of verbal mistreatment, you know what time it is.
“PurpleLily, my ex-fiance said the same! We’d been together for two years when he chose to tell me he’d ever end up with someone non-white. It’s ‘different, and my family have always been white, so your foreign name doesn’t fit with that’. And he still couldn’t see that what he’d said was wrong.” Helen, I can so empathize with everything you say on here. My abusive ex knew I was bi-sexual when we started dating, yet he frequently made openly homophobic statements to me the entire time we were dating. He once told me that if his brother knew he was involved with a bisexual woman and getting sucked into “alternative lifestyles,” the brother would “probably chastise him.” He fed me the “Adam-and-Eve, not Adam and Steve” line to me, told me all about his judgmental opinions about the gay men and women he met in Seattle and seemed proud of the fact that his family was making it difficult for his openly lesbian sister to get along with them. He admitted to having been brainwashed by his super-religious up-bringing, yet refused to acknowledge that there was anything wrong with his way of thinking. And he continued to date me and string me along for 8 months before I finally got the nerve to break it off with him. I swear, I think these men are from a different planet sometimes.
“On one occasion (a few months away from the wedding) he told me he didn’t know if he could be with someone who didn’t like fairground rides. Talk about dumb.” Helen, were we in the same relationship? The excuse my ex used to break up with me was that I wasn’t out-doorsy enough for him. (For the record, I’ve hiked and camped all over New England with my father, travelled all over the world, and skied at world-class ski resorts. When I confronted my ex over the fact that he’d spent the last month of our relationship ignoring me (he was upset that I’d gone to a wedding in Albuquerque without him) he said said that he didn’t think the trail ride he’d been on the other I day was something that I would really do. And apparently that was worth breaking up our eight-month relationship over. One time, we were vacationing in Colorado and he asked if I would mind if he left me while he went and skied some double black diamonds. I informed him that I could, in fact, ski double-black diamonds with ease. There was silence. It’s like it went in one ear and out the other.
When I was dating the chopper, he said one night there wasn’t anything amazing about me and that men who say that to me only want to sleep with me. Of course, he ended up just wanting me for sex although we had had fun and I thought an emotional connection. Guy friends of mine told me that was such BS and something a negative alcoholic would say to drag me down with him. Well,we are no longer dating but I recently saw a message of him claiming I’m a “dirty drunk whore.” I’m trying not to internalize that because I know it’s not true. I know he is only speaking about himself (he’s a player and an alcoholic) — but when you think you liked someone a lot and they say this, it hurts. I’m in shock but in a way, it kind of helps me to snap out of the fog I was in too. I’ve been sad about him. Now I’m sad I’ve wasted precious time and energy on someone so cruel.
@ tulip, you are talking about me, too, and my struggles with a mean, depressive alcoholic! of course, he was sweet in the beginning, but when they turn, watch out.
Knowing I was crazy about him & never being able to have sex with me because of his excessive drinking, he had the colossal cheek to flaunt photos of girls half my age that he was supposedly “hooking up” with. I’m sad, too, Tulip, because I allowed him to treat me with such meanness and blatant disrespect. Don’t be shocked and internalize your ex’s remarks and behavior. If he’s anything like mine, he’s sick, drunk half the time, and a poor judge of anything or anyone in his life. Mine called himself a “f**k-up” and, as I came to find out, surrounded himself with other toxic, unhealthy people. Since I wasn’t one of them & didn’t mirror his dysfunction, I was chopped out of his life. They really do chop the good out, as Nat writes in her post.
There’s a reason why Natalie classifies people with addictions as FOCR-and she tried, bless her heart, to deter me. Hold your head up, Tulip, remember who you are and move forward. I’m with you.
I wish I had read this two months ago. I knew this was happening to me but I couldn’t put it into words. I thought I was going crazy. Why did this guy who just spent weeks telling me how amazing I am now start nit picking everything about me? And the sick part was – he knew exactly what to hit. The things he was saying I already believed about myself and my heart was breaking inside that someone I thought cared about me would see them too. And hate me for them.
I guess him leaving me was the best thing that could happen. Because I felt paralyzed in my own self analysis.
“If you value a relationship more than you value yourself, they’ll exploit that desperation.”
The line above is where I was stuck. Tired of being alone. Ready for a relationship. That is the most destructive we can be to ourselves when we want something more than the respect we deserve.
I wish that I was quicker to the punch on this one because I should have known better by now. Than to stand and take it – from such a loser.
I remember thinking – I should so blast his a** right now with some return comments but it was like I literally felt paralyzed by the words I was hearing. My body was frozen.
My friends all told me I was better than him – I had so much going for me. I guess he saw it too. To bad I didn’t!
Reality – great comment. I completely understand where you are coming from. I felt water boarded (paralyzed) when the chops started coming. It’s great to have a new perspective now. Sounds like you do too!
OMG YES! This whole post describes my ex to a tee!
-Covert aggression with a ‘poor me’ attitude: he’d criticise me about something (‘you shouldn’t…/you never…/you’re too…’) and when I said ‘how bout you mind your own business?’ he’d MAKE it his business by implying that he was being harmed by my fault(s). One of his favourite phrases was ‘it’s just so confronting to see that you are like x’ or ‘it’s just hard for me to see that (personality trait or whatever)’ Thereby he *thought* he was getting around the objection ‘I didn’t ask you for your opinion, and it’s not your business to tell me how I am bad and should be better’.
-Point blank denying what he’d said was inappropriate: always. Even with the most nasty things he’d said that you should never say to a girlfriend. He’d deny and create reasonable explanations until he was blue in the face.
-He has a ‘form’ for this and I’m not the first one he’s done it to: I’m glad to read and be reminded of this. I’m sure he didn’t just wake up one day within our relationship and grow a theretofore-nonexistent nasty streak. I don’t know he treated his exes badly but I just know that what you’re doing in your mid twenties you’ve probably gotten in to the habit of doing before. It’s reassuring because it also reminds me that when the dreaded day comes that I see he’s found a new gf, she won’t be magically exempt from this behaviour either.
– “Choppers have a convoluted and complex framework of truth and honesty which means that they give themselves license to be ‘honest’ (without respect) while at the same time telling lies.” GOLD! It only struck me a few weeks ago (been NC for 2 months now) that he actually WASN’T ‘too honest’; he was honest when it suited him, and when it suited him, was *when it hurt me*!! When things had happened with other women that I needed to know about, like one making a serious play for a relationship with him, he kept it to himself. (When I found out, he told me he kept it from me cause he knew I would ‘freak out’. When really, I freaked out more cause he kept it from me, and I’d have felt reassured if he’d told me it had happened.) He was ‘honest’ when he had something cruel and emotionally devastating to say. He kept it to himself when the truth reflected badly on him and I’d have been justified in being angry or using the knowledge to evaluate whether I wanted to be in such a relationship. HONEST MY ASS. He was mean.
– “If they breach your trust and you tell them to jog on and then they weasel their way back in, _you’ll_ be apologising.” AGAIN, so true. After all the disrespectful shit he pulled on me; dangling breakups in front of me to control me, ‘big-up’-ing other women and convincing me of my averageness, losing his temper at me, making nasty remarks, I walked away and guess what? He had the nerve to say that *my walking away* was “disrespectful to the relationship”!!!!!! AAARGHH tell me again why I miss this guy.
“If you value a relationship more than you value yourself, they’ll exploit that desperation.” Sadly, true again. And where it comes back to me and my part in the dance of misery. Never again. Thanks Natalie, great post~ NC! NC! NC!
Wren,
exact same story here. EXACT!
The remarks about how ‘it hurt him to see me acting the way I do’; once I got so immensely furious with him (because during one of our many but short breakups he slept with several girls one of them the girl who had been using me to chase him around) and I freaked out about that. So I made the ‘mistake’ to loose it and tell him in suffocating tears that he was all I had and I needed him so much and I felt so betrayed because of who it was he slept with and that he failed to tell me before he and I were intimate again and so on, the talk of a deeply hurt woman. Afterwards -of course!- he used this moment of mine to tell me I had ‘anger issues’ and used my words of me telling him he was all I had left in my world to make me believe that nobody ‘wanted’ me in their world, that that was the reason that all I had was him.
The ‘honesty’ of his ‘opinions’ most certainly reached an end when he had explaining of his part to do! Complete non-information. Nothing! Prefered to end it with me for the gazillionth of time rather then to come to me straightforward with a simple answer. ‘I forced him’ he said, I ‘shut him down with my great ability of speach’. LOL. It’s called an honest conversation A*hole. Something he sure wasn’t incapable of when it came to putting me down! Never éver talked about his evenings out alone and with his friends. I mean néver. His standard answer would be ‘went to the same places saw the same people doing the same things’. Oh boy if I tried that one. (and I know how to implement a joke or two so I did try that once. No tears from laughing were falling of his face though!) No, indeed, instead I sat there explaining my face off to him about this or that because I ‘owed it to him’. *sigh* My laughter now still gets silenced sometimes with my anger about all that has been said and done. But there IS laughter now. Genuine and loud laughter at the absurdity of this waste of time I had.
I truely did love him. He knows that. And if something must hurt, then it has to be the inner knowledge of the fact that I was honest and genuin and upfront and I loved him and I really worked for it to. There isn’t more one can do OR should do. There is nothing léft to do but to RUN if that isn’t met with some decent care and respect in return.
Thanks for sharing Sofie, I’m glad to know I’m not the only one. I hope the days of laughing become more and more frequent, although it is good to get furious as well. The thing that strikes me about all this is that we are caring, loving individuals that anyone would be lucky to have in their life. They on the other hand, are cold, callous and completely ignorant of the insanity of their behaviour. Let’s thank our lucky stars we are us, and not them…
p.s. he sounds like a real piece of work, that comes across clear as a bell. i hope you never give him or anyone like him a moment of your time ever again. all the best! 🙂
One of your best, Nat!!!!
Great article Natalie! There are so many insecure men out there that do this to women and we end up with low self esteem because of it. My ex did this to me for 5 years. I was young and didn’t know any better at firstbut as I grew up my confidence grew and I gave him the big F U and dumped him. Fast forward to several months ago….I was dating a guy who seemed great and worshiped the ground I walked on. All of a sudden I began to get subtle digs from him about various things I did or said. I took note of it and stored it in the back of my mind. Oneday the digs became full blown criticisms in front of others. We broke up 4 days later.
So I’m happy to say I learnedmylesson and was happy to walk away before my self esteem was eroded. Girls….run from any man like this. He is insecure and jealous of you and is trying to tear you down ti his level to make himself feel better. He knows you are too good for him….youvshould know that too!
Oh yeah! ex AC/EUM would throw some underhanded shots at me. He would constantly critizise my parenting. I was wrong in everything which would blow me away because he wouldn`t come around or call to see how the baby was and when he did, it was all BS my way. My baby was pretty because “thank God she has my genes” and “hope she looks white like me” and my favorite, “why did she get YOU as a mom.” I will always remember when I asked him to make for time and to be consistent in his visits he told me “You are f*ed in the head” and went on to tell me I was selfish because he works long hours and has to help his friends and family on his days off and workout so he doesn`t end up with a girl like me again. I told him that I was sorry! Luckily this made me snap. How was I apologizing?!?! After that day, I was done. It`s taken awhile (and many re-reading of BR posts) to be truly done I see know that he just needed to drag me down because misery truly loves company! I am so grateful for this site and helping me to just let
I can say with great pride that as of this month, I’ve reached my 9th month of NC with the “man” I used to worship. I’ve sat back and read Nat’s wisdom diligently, slowly nursing myself back to health both physically and mentally.
As painful as it is to acknowledge, this post resonated so deeply within me. It brings back so many terrible memories of the things I allowed, memories I wish I could take back as I played my own worst enemy.
Just like so many of you, he blew so incredibly hot I melted in to him. He worshipped the ground I walked on, telling me how I was the ideal woman, how much he loved my confidence, joy, and outspoken nature. It was all of these things he eventually resented me for. He resented the idea I had friends, mentors, and a close family. He reminded me constantly that I was “boring”, “too serious”, and didn’t know how to have “fun” unless I had alcohol in my system.
Towards the second year of our “relationship”, he told me he preferred “white meat” (I’m a proud brown skinned sister). He told me he idolized white women because his mother is white woman. This man made innappropriate and personally offensive jokes about me at his family gatherings where he felt inadequate and out of place. This man would trip me in public. Yes, I am ashamed to sit here and admit this but this is how far gone I was. I could not love myself hard enough to admit how incredibly horrible this behavior was.
He would make comments about other women, joke to me about how my large breasts were not large enough. He would joke that he wasn’t what I wanted, rather, what I got stuck with. Looking back, I can see his lack of self worth. But moreso, I can see mine was lower. I allowed this man to take away my moments of joy, to the point where I was afraid to share good news as I feared the moments being ripped from me. When I was promoted at a job that I love, he couldn’t even bring himself to smile. When I found the apartment of my dreams, all he could do was criticize it. When he accomplished something, he would get bitter at my celebration of him. Disgusting. So disgusting.
And so I sit here and look back to the garbage that I thought was a pile of gold. Leaving that relationship left me at my lowest, but today I am at my highest. Sometimes you have to go so incredibly low, sometimes you have to treat yourself so badly, that your own heart and spirit can no longer take it.
Today, I am happy. I am the happiest I have ever felt in all my life. I know how I should be treated, what I want, and what I will NEVER settle for again.
Good luck ladies, and for the choppers out there, thank you for giving the opportunity to rebuild our lives.
Beautiful Red Velvet.
Sometimes we really do get the happiest after we have been (dragged) to our lowest. Enjoy your freedom, and be proud of it.
@ Red Velvet, “Sometimes you have to go so incredibly low, sometimes you have to treat yourself so badly, that your own heart and spirit can no longer take it.”
I hear you, red velvet (love the name, btw). There is a limit to how much punishment you put yourself through before you get a grip on it and say, “Uh, hell no!” It hurts less to cut them out of your life than to stay while they drain the life out of you-that was my get-out-of dodge moment.
@Red Velvet – “I allowed this man to take away my moments of joy, to the point where I was afraid to share good news as I feared the moments being ripped from me.”
I was reading though everyone’s post and wasn’t going to comment because I actually felt overwhelmed by the list of abusive and disrespectful comments/moments in my nine-year relationship.
Your comment was so profound and summed up my fears and reactions so poignantly. My ex chopped me for so many years that I still have a hard time comprehending how I was able to endure such horrendous treatment for such an extended period of time. And in that time, I continued to defend myself, struggle to prove myself and change his ‘perception’ of me.
I was never able to experience any moments of joy, pride or accomplishment. If I sold a painting at an art show, he would tell people that I wasn’t a real artist. When I was proud of something I created he would tell me, “yea, it’s alright.” He wouldn’t celebrate my birthday, attend graduations, go out with my friends. He would ridicule me in public, make me the butt of his jokes in front of friends (then criticize me for being too serious when I didn’t think it was funny), comment on how other women wanted him, sent me inappropriate pictures of women he found on the internet and provided sexual detail from past relationships despite my request for him not to.
When I got a raise at work I was told he was more deserving of a raise than me. I was superficial if I wanted him to help clean the apartment; when I got a new car he told me how everyone thinks I am a spoiled bitch (I in fact felt so insecure about this I got rid of the car); he would refused to kiss me in public; got angry if I took to long to order at a restaurant; told me I was plain potatoes and that no guy thinks I am pretty unless they get to know me.
I was so broken that the only person’s self esteem that was lower than his was mine. I downgraded all my accomplishments and actually grew to dread and fear accomplished moments in my life. I was afraid to make friends out of fear he would accuse me of cheating on him with them (guys and girls). I didn’t follow my dreams because I didn’t think I could achieve them and if I did I feared the reaction I would get and the guilt I would feel.
I feel saddened that I cannot get those 9 years of my life back and hope that I can finally get to a place where I can say I am my happiest. I read a lot of BR stories from women who rebuild and find true happiness – but somehow haven’t gotten to a place where I believe this can happen to me. I truly hope I am not an exception.
Lilian,
I promise that you are not and will not be an exception. I had to read your reply three times over to truly let it sink in how similar our experiences have been. I understand how painful it is to know that you invested time, effort, love, and energy in to someone you thought made sense for you. But people who make us feel that terrible about ourselves, regardless of how much time we gave them, could never be the path to true happiness. There were days after I parted ways with the ex that I layed in bed paralyzed by the very idea that I could have allowed someone like him in to my life. I was paralyzed by the idea that I lost so much time, that I had so much anger inside of me. But I promise you, it gets better. It’s easier said than done, but time will help you.
Months after I decided to go NC, I realized that during the entirety of my relationship, and the countless other situations in my life where I found myself begging for love from those utterly incapable of feeling it or giving it, what I was looking for had been there all along.
What I was looking for was always inside of me and I spent countless years praying someone else would give it to me. What I was looking for was acceptance, love, nurturance. It took years to come to where I am today and I am thankful for the difficulties. If it weren’t for all of the unavailable people in my life shooting down my attempts to give them love and to recieve it back, I wouldn’t have gotten here. I see it now…all I ever wanted was love. All I ever wanted was to be accepted. Now, I give myself all of those things.
It took the terrible relationship with my AC to see how badly I was abusing myself. How could I do that to myself? Was I really all that bad? No. I am not and never have been.
And so with all of that Lilian, I say to you, don’t worry about the time that has passed.
Please be grateful about the fact that you’ve come to a place where you realize how you should be treated from this point forward, both by you and those around you. If we don’t treat ourselves with the same respect, dignity, and loyalty we spent countless hours extending to those who didn’t deserve it, we will be right back to the same place again and again.
You are not an exception. You are incredible, gifted, loving, and RESILIENT. You will make it and we are all here to support you through it.
@ Red Velvet and Lillian : Just utterly shocked after reading your posts. How could someone been this horrible to another human being.
Kudos to you both for going NC. Amazing strength that takes. I know you and your lives (hearts and souls) will only grow and become wiser and stronger.
I just had to say that and send my best wishes. Just HAD to respond!
@Red Velvet and Purple Lily –
Thank you both for your response and support. It is horrible the things we have been criticized about and chopped down for. I actually did get out of my prior relationship because I just couldn’t take it anymore. And found myself right back in another one. It started off great and has dissolved into a noncommittal, future faking, roller coaster that I am trying to find the strength and courage to get off of. I am terrified I may never find a healthy relationship with someone who loves me for me, stays in love with me and doesn’t play hot and cold all the time.
I am so thankful to have this community of strong women who are so open and honest with their experiences and willing to provide strong and straight forward advice. Thanks again.
Hi Lilian, I’m a bit slow off the mark so I hope you see this. I feel moved to encourage you, feeling a kind of bond because our choppers were so eerily similar. I know it can seem like things won’t get better and that we are the exception to the rule of women finding true happiness. But I promise you, if you continue to face your fears and choose to feel the pain that your healthier choices bring (in the short term), then you WILL reap the benefits of TRUE HAPPINESS in times to come. As has been mentioned, it’s not about how much time has passed. Everyone’s different. I myself am happier than I’ve ever been because I finally stopped avoiding pain and allowed it to wash over me. In the past I’d avoid painful feelings by using denial, avoidance, delaying the inevitable. But when I just let the pain come and felt it in its entirety then I have been witness to a new beginning in my life. Like the poster says, I laugh harder, my smile is more genuine and so on because I faced fear and misery square in the eyes and GOT THROUGH IT.
You will too!! Just hold on and feel the feelings, concentrate on building the life you want and I truly believe that one day you will wake up and realise you’ve made it in to a bright new day.
Don’t give up! xx
Sorry and I just realised your last post in all likelihood contains the key to the fact that you’re still not feeling 100%. If you are holding on to another unfulfilling, ambiguous, ultimately depressing relationship then no wonder you are feeling a bit under the weather. If that is the case then I can tell you you have not yet looked your fear and pain in the face once and for all. Exchanging one asshat for another is certainly not the way forward, and no matter how impossible it seems, it’s only impossible if you say it is. There is always a way out, if you believe you can get out then you will, and there will certainly be a reward for your bravery – the universe (God, imo) is like that. All the best xx
Thanks Wren. I suppose I never really realized how much I am scared to face feelings of fear and the unknown and have thus far felt that more daunting than being miserable and in pain every day. I guess that’s just always been a known in my life and I have partly become desensitized to it. Yesterday was a true turning point for me in finally facing the truth and reality of my situation. I need to stop trying to squeeze love out of a lemon. And I have to stop the relationship insanity because my health, my well-being, and my life are truly suffering.
I’ve heard everything you wrote in this article from two different choppers in my past life! I kicked both of their arse’s to the curb. Run, is the correct action……..it is them, nothing but them….damaged pieces of filth! It’s too bad there isn’t a worldwide site where these damaged animal’s names,faces, deeds and habits could be posted so others could check them out before they had a second date with them….and we could call it “Damage Control.”
In hindsight, I can see how my “choppers” were simmering with resentment, brewing with contempt. They lacked inner joy and I can spot it from a mile away now. Fortunately its a repellent, not a magnet or a challenge. Its not our job to make them happy.
Excellent post Nat although I tend to agree with some other posters that the pattern of behaviour you’re describing is in fact simply emotional & verbal abuse. I think you did refer to abuse in the post which is good but I’s go a step further in not confusing emotional & verbal abuse with other terms (only an opinion). Emotional & verbal abuse especially tend to be very difficult for many people to identify as they simply don’t understand what it is. This post describes both perfectly. I worry that creating new terminology for such things will only confuse people even more. Then again you created the term assclown which essentially describes those highly likely to be suffering NPD, Sociopaths or psychopaths so perhaps it’s ok. I need to sit with the terminology issue I think. My gut tells me that abuse should called exactly what it is ie abuse (in this case emotional & verbal). I get concerned that when we call it by a lesser names we diminish what it actually is. Just my 2 cents worth 🙂
PS For example, posters are now replying saying, ‘X chopped me’ when what they mean is, ‘X emotionally &/or verbally abused me.’ There’s a big difference between the two statements. We cannot heal from what we haven’t acknowledged (& therefore language in that sense becomes important). Again, only an opinion. I don’t mean to offend anyone.
Teachable et al, at no point have I suggested that what is being talked about isn’t abusive behaviour. “Cutting somebody down” is not something I have ‘made up’ nor am I seeking to deny the existence of abuse or water it down. That’s just downright rude.
There are people reading this post (and others) on this site that even though they were in an abusive relationship, they did not realise it. As a direct result of reading this site, they are able to look at themselves and a situation differently and start to handle a situation. I’ve heard from several people who have LEFT or started talking to a professional as a result of this post which was published a few days ago.
Baggage Reclaim is not a forum nor a narcissist site and if that is what you think it is, you’re in the wrong place.
I write about lots of subjects and have various terminology – I did not realise that I was not allowed to… Soon you’ll be instructing me that I cannot use Future Faking, Fast Forwarding et al.
Somebody cutting somebody down with criticism is not the same as gas lighting. Somebody who ‘chops’ (sorry if that offends Teachable et al) is making no secret of it to you – they won’t deny that they’ve said what they’ve said to you although they will happily play the victim. One man kept a list for his girlfriend to find with all of the things he didn’t like about her – he made sure she found it. Of course ‘this behaviour’ (I don’t dare say the C word) crosses into gaslighting (and then it *is* gaslighting) and physical abuse – Er, nobody said it didn’t.
I am not denying abusive relationships *obviously* and nor am I denying the existence of narcissists, but guess what? Not all emotionally unavailable people are narcissists (otherwise all Fallbacks would be narcissists too ) and not all abusers are narcissists either. Some people are just very fucked up and assholes.
And you know, it’s fine for you to disagree with the post or even not like the site, but don’t cross people’s boundaries by telling them what they can or cannot comment please and less of the sarcasm with “ta”. Considering the nature of the subject on this post, it’s odd to take such a tone with myself and readers.
Let me also remind you all – I’m not a ‘doctor’, I don’t read self-help books about abuse or narcissism – this site is inspired by my own experiences, observations and what many thousands of people have shared with me. What you read on each post is pulled out of my head and eyes so if you want ‘science’ and to be able to ‘police’, you are in the wrong place.
Nat,
Thank you for addressing the overuse of the term narcissist. I don’t know why we have to place labels such as, narcissist, sociopath and psychopath, perhaps this is a way of excusing our involvement with these clowns- giving them a mental condition does not excuse our involvement.
Let’s call it what it is: people who are incapable of having a healthy loving relationship – I’m talking about both parties.
One more thing: I think the overuse of these terms makes us out to be victims. If you see yourself as a victim, you will continue to repeat the cycle.
Responsibility is freeing!!!
Natalie and Allison,
I couldn’t agree more. I particularly dislike the term narcissist! It is a serious diagnosis, for a personality disorder which is untreatable, and shouldn’t be bandied around lightly. Chopper refers to a
specific behaviour, works for me.
Nat
Yes chopping is emotional abuse but a very specific behaviour that i’ve not seen named or described in such a clear way before. the term paints a graphic pic. Clearly its helpful, as shown by the number of responses, which im quite surprised by. So many of us. It gave me an aha moment and i know too much about abuse already.
I’ve experienced future faking and fast forwarding too, lucky me. I chalked it up to the flush of meeting someone new, or naivety. But you named it and shamed it, and I know now it’s unacceptable and often a precursor to some very dodgy behaviour indeed. It’s not harmless or romantic. Its irrational and irresponsible. I love that the new man doesn’t future fake or fast forward and it’s because of you that I see his steady consistent pace as genuine, enjoyable and not at all boring!
It’s your gift that you can shed new light on these things.
Ps everyone excuse my dodgy typing. I’m on an iPad these days and still getting used to it.
Hi Natalie
Excellent article which for me follows on beautifully from the last two. In my opinion “a chopper” relates to an experience and therefore has no place being associated with limited clinical terms.
When I check into this site I tend to treat it like a conversation. It is a place where I come to share, listen and learn from the experiences of others. It is an opportunity to relect on the past, to see how far I have grown and to gather helpful strategies that will support my intention to remain emotionally healthy and available.
I am not convince that ex’s or current partners with ac/eum/arseclown traits necessarily fall into the narcissist, sociopath or psychopath spectrum. Neither do I consider myself a victim because of any experiences I have personally encountered.
The word chopper in my view does not negate or minimses the abuses that have occured or may still being occuring in many of our lives but instead illistrated with real life examples what chopping looks and feels like.
I for one relish the lighbulb moments that come after I have read an article and the comments posted.
Choppers, I’ve known a few and this article reminds me how far they are behind me now.
What does AC and EUM stand for? I’m not familiar with these acronyms.
Thanks, OceanLady
Hi Oceanlady and welcome to BR (Baggage Reclaim). EUM is emotionally unavailable male. AC is an assclown and FBG is a fallback girl. Natalie is brilliant in inventing this terminology which so accurately described most of my past relationships. I’d strongly recommend ordering Nat’s books and you can also place the term in the search on this site and find a ton of articles describing the terms. Welcome. Hope you’ll stay with BR. You’ll learn a lot, at least I have.
opps…EUW is an emotionally unavailable female!
I had a short term involvement with a guy a little while back & he made comments aimed at attacking my self esteem a few times. It was quite rediculous as there was no basis to the comments so it stuck out immediately as a red flag. He never completed his education, & although he has financial means, he has no proper job or achievements to point to in his life (apart from raising his daughter). I recognised quickly that he was trying bolster himself up by his comments & got rid of him. He didn’t seem to like the fact that I was intelligent & was always trying to make a point that he was more so, than I. I’m not so sure I agree with that but who gives a toss? As if that means anything!!! I must have at least half a brain because I dumped him quick smart!! LOL
Please can we refer to these men as what they ARE ie abusers & not choppers? It’s incredibly important that women recognise when they are being abused & name it for what it is. Ta.
Teachable,
I appreciate where you’re coming from, but I think you may be missing the forest for the trees. I had a therapist tell me that my mother had a personality disorder NOS (not otherwise specified). It used to drive me crazy, and I spent an inordinate amount of time trying to diagnose her. Was she borderline? A narcissist? Somehow I believed that if I couldn’t attach a label to her, then the problem really didn’t exist. I was afraid that maybe I was completely mistaken and she didn’t have a problem since I couldn’t attach a “label” to it.
But you know what? At the end of the day, I know my mother is completely wacked out and treats me like sh*t. Is she a chopper? Hell yes she is. Is she an abuser? Yep. But the important thing is not that I can hang my hat on a label but that I can recognize and identify unhealthy behavior. Whether I call her a Chopper or an Abuser has absolutely NO bearing on my healing. “A jerk by any other name…” Whether she’s a narcissist or borderline or none of the above doesn’t change the fact that I recognize her behavior as unhealthy and I no longer put up with her busting my boundaries.
Honestly, I think that getting hung-up on labels can cause another unintended consequence. For example, I think I may have fallen into the labeling trap in my current situation. Because he didn’t tick all the boxes for an abuser, assclown, or EU, I thought he must be okay. All of those labels can be helpful and useful, but they’re not the primary point. Some relationships are just unhealthy. Just because they don’t fall on the “abusive” end of continuum doesn’t mean it’s not equally as dysfunctional and a reason to opt out.
I guess I’m still trying to suss out what constitutes bad behavior. For me, arguing over labels is like white noise at this point. To read this post and come out with: “Chopper is the wrong label to use to describe the following types of disrespectful behavior which you should not put up with” is to miss the point entirely. IMHO.
I’m late to the conversation and will just weigh in that diminishing, devaluing, demoting, etc., silent treatment and many other things we may have experienced and excused are indeed all forms of abuse. I do think it may be helpful to take the leap and identify them as such – Abuse. We should not minimize these actions and the effect upon us or internalize them as about us. “Oooh, he didn’t take his fist to me and he didn’t really mean to hurt me…” Geez, it is what it is. Destroying/Denying your reality/autonomy to serve his/her agenda is emotional/mental blackmail and abusive.
I’ll admit I’m having flashbacks tonight and so not in the mood to split hairs over this after so many years of it. “Chopping” is emotional or mental abuse in most cases. End of. Call it what you want but fully acknowledge and act upon what it is.
sm what you’re you describe about neediness is not ‘chopping’. It’s emotional abuse 😉
Teachable; let it go with that “I must correct you 50 times it is abuse not chopping” schtick; if people want to create even their own terms-say BR calls it chopping and I call it picking-who gives a crap? Are you going to actually tell me that I can’t use my own words, to describe what I experience? That is very arrogant, call it “emotional abuse” if you want but you are in no position to tell me, or SM, what we can say?
But more importantly, why are you here? To learn about yourself, or play more-intellectual-than-thou because if the latter is the case you should just mosey on and create your own blog. This is a community and-hah!- I will say it; your picking things apart is a bit chopping, isn’t it? Oh I am sorry, a bit emotionally abusive;)
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I kind of agree with teachable. Here’s why: I have no real problem with the term chopper. In fact, I have incorporated many of the terms found on this blog into my vocabulary (assclown happens to be my favorite). However, I recently got out of an 8-year relationship with a verbally and emotionally abusive man. Over the course of the relationship, I was criticized and belittled in every possible way. I was repeatedly told that I am “so dumb”, “would be a terrible mother”, “a clutz”, “fat” (I’m not), “ugly” (I’m not) my way of speaking was made fun of and corrected (I am American my ex was English), I “have no style”, “can’t do anything right”, “can’t be relied upon”, the list goes on and on and on. One incident that I will never forget as long as I live is one night, before bed, my ex and I were brushing our teeth and as he was looking at me in the mirror and called me an “ugly mutt” under his breath. As one can imagine, I was shocked and horrified at this comment (we were married at this point; I remember thinking, “I cannot believe my HUSBAND just said that to me”) and when I asked him to repeat what he had said, clearly upset by the comment,he screamed in my face “it was a joke you stupid b*&ch.” (stupid B is another name he called me on a regular basis). I could write pages and pages of examples of how I was abused, but the point I want to make here is – call it what you will – chopping or verbal abuse, what’s more important than the terminology is that this topic is being discussed and for that I am grateful. If this blog post prevents even one person from making the same mistake I did it was a success. I think what teachable is simply trying to say is, let’s not make light of something so very real and very painful and call it what it is. I, for one would never refer to my ex as a chopper, he is a verbal abuser, plain and simple. But, ladies, let’s not worry so much about what it is called – the takeaway here is, we must recognize the behavior and never, ever allow a man to mistreat us in the ways that are expressed in this blog.
Sorry everyone – I’ve been deeply engrossed in Dallas which just started in the UK tonight so I’m just catching up!
Let’s just get a few things clear:
The issue here is not about disagreeing with the ‘terminology’ used in the post or even disagreeing with certain comments (I get what Teachable et al are saying); the primary issues have been about tone and boundaries which bearing in mind the subject of the post, is somewhat ironic. The comments went from being an atmosphere where people were sharing their experiences and taking the subject of the post further, to correcting, policing etc.
I don’t go around the net picking up people who don’t say things as I’d like. I mean seriously, what are you going to do? Patrol the net and tell off anyone who doesn’t say things in the way that you would like?
I was at no point attempting to trivialise abuse and there is too much projection going on here and certainly some empathy issues, which again is ironic. In trying to quite aggressively push your own agendas, there is as I think Laurie pointed out, a missing of the forest because there is too much focusing on the trees. I feel like I’ve offended an ‘association’ or something!
There is a very important discussion going on here. There are people sharing stories that they might not be sharing elsewhere. There are people connecting dots that even if they have read other information on abusive behaviour or spoken with someone, this post has helped them to make sense. Er, what’s so wrong with that? Can’t the fact that this discussion is taking place be respected?
The fact that people here are saying that the post has managed to capture a very specific type of experience (and bearing in mind that other experiences are very common knowledge) is enough. I have never suggested that I’ve ‘invented’ anything – the whole idea of this site is to talk about experiences differently. I wrote an entire book by deconstructing my own experiences and those of others and looking at the sequences of behaviour. I sometimes home in on very specific behaviours – this is one of those such times.
I think “Chopper” is a great metaphor for the (abusive) experiences being talked about here and in the article. It’s spot on. It describes the nature of the abuse – the hacking/chopping away at another person’s sense of self and well-being, whatever. Chopper/chopping is a descriptor of the abuse – and it’s a pretty good descriptor!
Great article Nat, and I don’t doubt many people reading it will now be seeing the chopping they might be experiencing as much more serious than they have previously thought – as abusive even.
You have helped me in so many ways, no matter the choice of words, your message was unmistakable and right on as usual.
On a lighter note.
Food for thought: Chop suey….a man about to get flushed. Pork chop….a man you need to be careful of parasite tendencies. Chopper Roo….a man who will take you for a ride. Chopped meat….us after being taken for a ride. Chop chop…a fast fowarder. Sorry…..just being silly, forgive me.
Amen! Here’s my two cents: There was a time when I’d been to two therapists, read twice as many dating books and got some excellent advice from some very sensible people that I’m blessed to have in my life. Yet, I was still stuck in one sh*tty relationship after another and blaming it on my “shortcomings”. You know what finally made sense to me? An article called “Am I Involved With an Assclown?”. If it hadn’t been for Nat and the lovely ladies who comment here, I’d either still be stuck or something beyond awful would have had to happen to force me to change. You all have my love and gratitude forever and always 🙂
P.S. In the interest of staying on topic, if I ran into any of my exes at the point in my life…I would cross the damn street. As much as it’s a bit of human nature to want the validation, having a assclown texting you is of zilch-zero-jack sh*t benefit. Trust me ladies, I’ve done the legwork!!
Amen Natasha and Fearless. I’d been through therapy ironically ordered by the exChopper. I’d read all the standard books by written by therapists and others. There has been nothing I’ve found out there more insightful, helpful, and healing than Natalie and the wonderful BR community. Natasha, I run into the exChopper/Abuser often as we work in the same place. He hasn’t aged well and has lost most of his hair What’s left is greasy and strangles, coupled with an unkempt strangely beard. Has gained even more weight and walks with a profound limp. He obviously still doesn’t know how to work the laundry or the shower. His self-loathing chopping insides are now explicitly showing on the outside and he’s as scary on the outside as he was on the inside. “Choppers and their manipulative, abusive behaviour are insidious – their true selves creep up on you and by the time you accept what you’re dealing with, they’ve often robbed you of the strength to leave.” It was the creepiest thing I ever experienced (don’t much care what term is used–it was creepy, scary, mind-blowing) but I finally gained my strength and left. He hasn’t changed and can’t leave himself. I don’t avoid him as we are in the same building and it’s impossible. I blank him and blank him hard. It’s like he doesn’t even exist on the planet. It was so wonderful the day I discovered one of Natalie’s posts that said I didn’t have to be friends with ex’s, let alone abusive ex’s. I never said another word to him again.
PS. The Assclown article got my attention too! Couldn’t stop reading BR after that. Thank you Natalie and the BR community. My love and gratitude forever too.
ok, i can’t help weighing in…
i don’t even get why this side topic became an issue…about one of BR’s best-written posts, ironically…
what natalie does is illuminate specific behaviors and emotional experiences so that we can better recognize what is happening right in front of us. naming behaviors and experiences is a tool helpful in differentiating the mass of grey we sometimes see, so we can tell what’s what and make better decisions for ourselves.
it is precisely because of how natalie describes things, names things, that every single one of us has read a BR post and thought – OMG! that’s me! that’s him/her! now i SEE it! and then written back to her, hands shaking and tears falling, and gushed our boundless, barely expressible, gratitude.
so please – let’s not quibble. let’s just be grateful that natalie posssesses, and expresses, these powers of observation and discernment.
teachable I do agree that being accused of ‘neediness’ can be emotionally abusive. But and I should have clarified, in this particular case it was used to chop me down because it couldnt have been further from the truth and he knew it.
I know I have been in this position before. My ex boyfriend stopped being intimate with me for several months because he said that his career was too important. I felt bereft because of this and after too long waiting, I asked him why he wasn’t paying me any effort or attention. I wasn’t happy with this but he turned it on me and told me that it was my fault for not being good enough in bed and that “relationships are about more than just sex”. I felt lonely because he was treating me as a friend rather than a girlfriend and he seemed quite oblivious to this. We had an argument about it and he tried to walk away. So I grabbed his sleeve and pulled him back into the room because I felt it was disrespectful for him to not want to listen to me. He told me what I did was wrong and domestic violence.
It’s only recently that I have been able to feel righteous anger because of how he treated me, mostly because of guilt. If I had found this blog before, I would have been prevented from my reaction. I ended up cheating on him because I was so lonely and desperate to feel sexually wanted. I am only trying to explain my actions, not to validate them. I did tell him straight away because I thought he ought to know, and he ended it there. This has prompted me to re-examine how I feel about relationships, and about being alone.
There is one thing I am sure of, and that is the knowledge that he won’t ever feel guilty about mistreating me but that I will get all the blame in his mind for having cheated on him. This was only made worse by people taking his side against mine without bothering to hear my side of the story. He sent me an email a few weeks into our break-up demanding that we talk. I said that I’d be happy to but that I wanted to wait until a few months had passed so there was less resentment between us. He got extremely angry with me and sent me a threatening email afterwards, telling me to stop talking about him on relationship advice forums I frequent. He forbid his friends from talking to me but contacted all of mine to tell them all what a bitch and whore I was. Someone later pointed out to me that regardless of what I did, I need to stop feeling sorry for him. What are your thoughts?
Oh lucy when I got to the part where you feel sorry for him I confess I burst out laughing. I did not see that coming. Dont feel sorry for him. It’s a genius master stroke that they get us to feel sorry for them.
I felt sorry for the abusive ex because I cheated on him. Look, you and I both know that their behaviour doesn’t excuse our cheating but our cheating doesn’t Excuse their behaviour either. Nc, learn and move on, in time. But not too much time. Don’t get stuck on giving yourself a hard time.
When I struggled with forgiving myself I remembered that – as a Christian – God has forgiven me, so it would be kinda disrespectful for me not to forgive myself. I don’t have carte Blanche to do what I like but what I do have these days is the freedom and presence of mind to do the right thing. And so can you.
Thank you, Grace. Yes that is what my friends said. They told me that despite everything that happened, I’ve been giving myself far too much of a hard time and that I shouldn’t concern myself with what he’s doing or how he’s moved on. At least I’ve learnt now to care only about opinions which matter. I take a lot less to heart than I used to.
Lucy and Grace,
I’m so glad to know I’m alone in these feelings of guilt. I didn’t “cheat” per se, but I did talk to another guy when the whole porn/lie thing exploded last year. There was no flirting, but my motives were wrong. I was looking for emotional validation, and I’m disgusted with myself because of it. I told my ex about it, and he said it was the main reason he kept breaking it off. That and I broke off the engagement. Honestly, he told me several different things about why he broke up with me. Anyway…
I think I justified his crappy behavior because I had hurt him so much. I know he justified his crappy behavior because of it. But that’s a slippery, tit-for-tat slope. “I hurt you because you hurt me because I hurt you….” I have taken responsibility for what I did. It honestly scares the hell out of me that I was capable of that. I just wish he would have taken responsibly for his part without blaming me. It’s a very lopsided position to be in. I also think it perpetuates the thinking that, “I don’t deserve better. I deserve to continue in this purgatory of a relationship.” I’m fighting this very thing right now.
Sorry, I know it’s a bit off topic. I’m just so glad to see I’m not alone in this struggle.
lucy-
hang on. its hard to type while i’m spitting nails.
-deep breath-
let’s step back for a sec, a sec in which ANY woman tries to say to ANY guy “sorry, can’t have sex with you, my career is too important.”
y’know what would happen? he’d be GONE.
and, on the rare chance that he didn’t go, if we then tried to say, “further, its your own fault for not being good enough in bed.”? THEN he’d definitely be gone.
look, i know exactly how hard it is to fight invalidation and emotional abuse. when we grow up with abuse, it can feel impossible to justify our own points of view against someone who is, or is behaving like, a monster. and sometimes, counter-intuitively, the worse the monster, the harder it is to stick up for ourselves.
but stick up for yourself you MUST. don’t just not feel bad for him. you need to REVILE him. he’s not just a chopper. he’s a lying, mean, vicious, hypocritical, gas lighting (oh, RIGHT, you domestically abused him) evil bastard. who chose to not have sex with you either as a means of manipulation (c’mon! what guy does that?!?!? that’s totally sick.) OR – sorry, honey – because he was … ok, i can’t make myself type it, you fill in the blank…but it just makes him more evil. and who contacted your friends to talk shit about you? and they didn’t stick up for you? and he cruelly admonished you for telling the simple truth?
honey, no. try to see this more clearly.
1- he’s a SOCIOPATH. repeat after me: *sociopath*. no longer do you care a whit about what HE thinks – his agreement is one thing you do NOT need.
2- kick ANYBODY who didn’t stick up for you against him, who invalidated you, out of your life. and i mean a.n.y.o.n.e. i don’t care who they are, even family members. if you go from 100 friends to zero friends because of this, you’ll be better off.
honey, please rethink every single relationship in your life and clean. house. until it sparkles with no toxicity, dishonesty, or shrewish coldness.
you need love and understanding. i know i’m a damn broken record around here, but you start with you. STOP accepting abusive behavior from EVERYone. and then, you will see that anyone else who does not give you love and understanding does not deserve a thought in your head or a place in your life.
Thanks. He wasn’t always so awful but how he acted after the break-up showed me his true colours. I absolutely regret cheating with all my heart but when he knew, I wish he would have said something like “Why did you cheat on me? Isn’t our love worth more?” but his response was more about ego. He said he was hurt and that “I don’t like the thought of you with another guy”.
But I have to be honest about what happened. It turned out, I realised later, that he was delaying sex because he actually has an insecure fear about it and was having erectile dysfunction problems. But he limited my capacity to be as sympathetic as I wanted to be because he didn’t tell me about it, and he blamed his erectile dysfunction on me. He had enough time to watch porn but no time to spend on me.
Well I thought about what you said. My friends did defend me without me having to ask. But they are a bit insecure too so perhaps went along with it for longer than they should have done. They know about the whole situation and are on my side.
A few months after the break-up he sent me photographs that I had left on his computer. I sent him a message to thank him and he replied asking me to stop talking about him on advice forums in return. I refused and told him “you can’t tell me what to do”. He then messaged one of my friends again and said “I told her to stop talking about me on forums. It was perfectly reasonable request”. Those photos were owed to me anyway, and I did not mention him by name online so talking about it did not do any harm.
hi Lucy, don’t get lost in details, try to look at it like it’s a movie or happening to somebody else. My ex also found me once here, and said that whatever he’d done, making him ‘look dirty’ was out of line. Narcissism alert! It’s not about him! Here: it’s about you trying to make sense of it all, trying to learn something, trying to adress your own issues. I didn’t screenshot my comments and mailed him! He searched for me on the internet, probably rigoriously and found me and recognised the story. And thén he said I was out of line. Why? Because hé searched for me and didn’t like what he found? Bad luck, if I can’t talk about my feelings to him and according to him I shouldn’t talk about them here, then who’s got controlling issues? It is NOT a reasonable request. Even if you would mention him by name (though that’s a bit more gossiping then anything else) but even so, you do what makes you feel better, you come here out of frustration of your own experience, you don’t come here to make him feel worse. It’s all about him and his excuses but you better be sure you don’t make one for yourself ’cause he won’t have a taste for yours right? Right. Narcissists. Ugh.
Thanks Sofie. I never cared about trying to control the narrative of our relationship after we broke up. I did and still feel that what irked me about him was entirely justified. I did not post it for him to see. He followed me around online and found it. Your post really helped clarify it for me…
And I have some more questions on my mind still. When I told him about the cheating, I made the decision not to go into any great detail about it. In fact I told him that I had only kissed someone else and not gone further, when in fact I had done. This was not to cover my guilt but to protect his feelings. I didn’t think there was any reason for him to feel worse. At that point I was sure he would not find out otherwise. Then a former friend betrayed me because she thought he had to know the truth.
He did not accept my reasoning on this and reacted horribly telling me I was an awful person and that I should “at least be honest with [him] for once”. But if he had been honest with me about his sexual hang-ups and porn addiction, this whole chain of events would not have started up…
uh…ok. now i feel like an idiot, the new information puts an entirely different cast on it. but ok.
hi cc,
I love your broken record.
I decided to flush everybody who doesn’t feel like sticking with me is an option they’d prefer.
And I feel light as a feather.
Less phonecalls to make: yes, but a better morning to wake up to.
Because now my own reflections smiles at me, it doesn’t raise its eyebrows anymore.
When you’ve grown up hearing putdowns, your ears become immune to them. While a healthy person would hear the putdown and walk away, we don’t properly hear it and absorb the information of it, and we stick around hoping to counteract it, or pray that it doesn’t happen again. My reaction to verbal abuse in the past has left me strangely paralyzed with shame, as if I must have heard wrong. My mind would go blank and I’d become stunned, like “this isn’t happening to me.” When my ex AC started to verbally abuse me, I was crushed, and knew the relationship was doomed, but instead of leaving, I crumbled into a weakened survival mode, as if I’d relinquished all my power and I was just trying to get by, day by day, with a shred of dignity intact. I was overwhelmed with shame, and desperate to make him see me the way he’d seen me at the beginning of the relationship. Of course, the humiliation of my lowly position, of selling myself out, became too great, and I rescued myself, finally.
Now, as I build my self-esteem and my power, I am able to hear the putdowns and insults and boundary-busting words with crystal-clear clarity, for the first time in my life. It’s like I have new ears. I don’t immediately own the insult and believe it, nor try to hide from it in shame, or go into shock mode — instead, I hear the words for what they are, and I see the person delivering them for what they are, and I know that person must be ejected from my life instantly. I have done this a few times in my newly enlightened phase, and I can’t tell you how good it feels to clear my life of these toxic losers.
I wish had such clarity earlier in my life, but thank God I have it now. Having boundaries and self-respect is absolutely life altering.
Thank you so much for your posting. I was married to a “chopper”, and it was a living, breathing, walking nightmare from hell. He pulled the good ole’ bait-and-switch. I, too, finally found the courage and strength to rescue myself. Never before and never again will I allow myself to be in such a situation.
here’s one thing i’m taking from all of this –
an actual chopper, as natalie describes, is pretty rare. i’ve only met 1 that fits the strict description, and that’s why i was so thrown, like 1000 miles off center, when it happened to me. and i like the term “chopp/ing/er” when applied in this specific case, because it is so precise.
HOWEVER – we have all met (were raised by, etc) LOTS of people who, while not possessing the full-on chopper syndrome, engaged in all types of chopping, chipping, undermining, gaslighting, and emotionally abusive behavior – some of whom didn’t even mean to do it on purpose.
my ex-EUM did this – he was a black belt at flipping the script, calling crumbs loaves, subtle undermining, and a yellow belt at unintentional gaslighting. and, as easy as it is for me to villify him (he practically wears the black villain cape), in truth, he wasn’t even trying to hurt me – he was just woefully incapable.
my point? just to be aware of these behaviors when they happen. sometimes its worse in a way when its subtle, when its unwitting, when its mixed in with truly good qualities that the other person possesses, because then its harder to see, harder to believe, easier to forgive, easier to excuse, yet makes the two of you no less devastatingly, and sadly, incompatible with each other.
Oh wow! That last exchange between teachable & dancing queen made me realize something: I have a girlfriend who does that: chop, chop, chop. The entire time I was rejecting the MMs love-talk as just a lot of blather, and trying to keep my humor and equilibrium to keep a healthy distance, she was throwing chops at me left, right and center: “You can’t even see when someone loves you!” I would shoot back no, he loves how I make him feel, but he knows almost nothing about me, he certainly cannot love me. On and on it went. “You’re too hard on him him,” “He’s having a rough time,” “You shouldn’t have said that,” blah blah blah. I wonder if any of you experienced this…someone rejecting your reality because they ‘know better’ even when your self-preservation is on the line. If this individual hadn’t had an affair herself, and subsequently left her husband, I never would have shared with her. Good thing I didn’t heed those chops, or someone would be scraping me off the floor.
Yep. One of my best friends since high school. I was relating to her why I couldn’t spend the holidays with my folks (my mother is incredibly abusive). She said, “Your mother isn’t that bad. Your sister doesn’t have any problems with her…” It was incredibly hurtful and invalidating. I had shared stories of clear emotional, verbal, and physical abuse and yet that was her response.
She’s also married, and every time we got together she would give me a hard time about being single. I always left our get-togethers feeling sh*t about myself. Now clearly she is not responsible for how *I* feel, but I did determine that I didn’t need to have friends that constantly invalidate my experiences or “chop” me down because I’m single and they’re married. I’ve never had to NC a friend before, but I feel it was necessary.
And clearly there’s a difference between “chopping” someone down and giving them advice. I can take criticism, and I’m thankful that my friends love me enough to tell me when they think I’m doing something potentially destructive (like staying in a bad relationship). And they’re respectful about it. Chopping is a completely different experience. I feel much better without her in my life.
Laurie
My counsellor said that I have experienced things that most people could not even begin to understand. The boyfriend doesn’t understAnd it. He prob thinks my mom is just a bit loopy.
But I don’t need him to get it. I get it. My sister gets it and my brothers get is. A very few other people get it. Most won’t or can’t. On its own it doesn’t make them unfriendworthy
You know, and no one can take that from you.
But her giving you a hard time about being single is disrespectful IMO. You could try talking to her about it if you think it won’t upset you to do so. Otherwise put in some distance. You could try ignoring it, but that’s my speciality, I get that not everyone can do that and I’m not sure it’s the best tactic anyway.
Thanks grace. I tried to talk to her a few months ago because I felt like I was giving more than I was receiving in the relationship. I would try to call or make plans and she would just blow me off. I texted her one morning and asked if she would be free that evening to talk. She freaked out and insisted I tell her right then what I wanted to talk about. I was stressing her out, etc. It was really weird. I ended up calling her on my lunch break because I didn’t want to stress her out.(?)I guess that kind of put me off talking to her. Maybe I should. I’m just a little afraid of her reaction and I’m not sure if I’m up for the drama right now.
laurie-
i agree with what grace said about people who have not had exact or similar experiences to hers not being able to understand (and it is good that she doesn’t need them to, but i bet they are kind and understanding nonetheless). it used to be that, before i learned to stop telling them, people would react to my stories of my abuse as if i were making it up, overreacting, or flat out lying. they could not imagine anyone doing what my parents did to me and my siblings, therefore they rejected my reality outright. they could not get it. hence, most of my close friends are people who were abused as children and who are committed to healing and progressing.
where you have to draw the line is when someone invalidates you and cannot offer any kind of understanding or support. i could never be friends with the people i described above, who couldn’t even say to me “i can’t really relate because i was lucky enough to not suffer that, but i understand and am sorry that happened to you.”
your high school friend sounds absolutely awful, and you don’t have to take that. moreover, just because she reacted that way does NOT make her right, and comparing you to your sister was just downright mean.
you know what happened to you and how your mother is! don’t allow her to impinge on what you know to be true. do not tolerate invalidation and do not seek validation from an invalidator. you don’t need her agreement – validate herself.
*yourself
Things I was chopped for:
Too much hair down there
Not enough hair on eyebrows (I plucked them) (I stopped plucking them for him)
Big forehead/hairline too far back
Too much makeup (I actually don’t wear that much)
Perfume stinks (in general – I stopped wearing it for him)
Too Christian
Too ‘American’ (and I’m not even American, not from anywhere near there – that’s his term for being too over the top, fakely positive and enthusiastic as opposed to cold hard brutal ‘honesty’/harsh words)
Too materialistic (cause I ‘worked too much’ and liked to spend the money I’d earned on things I like)
Too comfort-loving/seeking (cause I like to eat nice, good quality food and don’t enjoy being cold)
Not adventurous enough (even though I’ve lived in 3 countries other than my own, in the last 5 years) (and where did I meet him? In his home country)
Tried to tell me I was like the mother in Six Feet Under – who, if you don’t know the show, is in her sixties, and frumpy, sexually repressed and neurotic
Tried to tell me I was like the jealous wife in in one scene of the movie The Witches, who is also extremely frumpy, awful, and a caricature of the uptight dumpy insecure middle-aged woman. (Mind you, I have just turned 28 and my dress sense is in no way frumpy or “old woman-ish”.) I tried to tell him that that was an extremely hurtful thing to say to your girlfriend, and that any woman would be hurt to be compared to these awful characters. He denied there was anything wrong with what he’d said and then again belittled my concerns as me being “too sensitive”
Bike too slow
Walk too fast (does it really make sense he could use BOTH those ‘faults’ against me?)
And the list goes on. This post has awoken a fire inside me, and made things clearer than any other wisdom I’ve read on here. Making me remember things that I haven’t thought about for a long time. It’s extremely helpful to have a term to describe the kind of person he is; I feel much better equipped to deal with my regrets and the eventual possibility of running in to him or him making contact again after our 3 months is up (I initially told him I wanted 3 months NC but now I see there’s no point going back to any level of contact). Again, from the bottom of my heart, thank you.
LOL, wren thanks for your post. Now I know why I was called too American. I totally mean this in a good way, you do seem a little American. I have had all that stuff said to me, including that I needed to show more cleavage, at least he prefaced it with you have the boobs for it. No I’m not frumpy either, I like taylored clothing. Love your post we could be friends 🙂
Thanks sm 🙂 I’m glad to know I’m not the only one out there that’s experienced this type of mind-effery. Still, I’m wondering, what makes you say I seem a little American?! Very curious. I’m from the other side of the world from the US. I think my generation was raised on American tv and movies though…
I think we went out with the same guy. Funny thing is, if I said something about HIM (which was rare), I was a ‘bitch’, but when he said crap about me, he was ‘being honest’ and/or ‘helping’ me. Who the hell do they think they are that they are so perfect. Then when he dumped me for his ‘perfect’ woman (who was married with kids…she was an idiot but I don’t think she actually had any interest in leaving her husband), failed, then failed at 8 months of on-line dating, he came crawling back. Still didn’t understand why I thought he was a jerk, so FLUSH.
Who do these guys think they are to say such horrible things to the people they are supposed to ‘love’? Insecure assholes, that’s what. It’s just that they get you when you aren’t 100% and have a sixth sense in how to find your weaknesses and abuse them.
Wren
“I initially told him I wanted 3 months NC but now I see there’s no point going back to any level of contact.”
Sheesh. Dear oh dear. He sounds like hatchet-man! I agree with you. Flush him down the chipper!
Gosh was I chopped!!
I wore the wrong clothes
I was too thin
Breasts too small
I didn’t know how to drive (yet he would insist I was the driver)
I’d never run a successful business (I am!)
I’d never find a decent man who would put up with me (I have found a lovely man)
My children are heading for jail (age 5 & 7)
I could go on.. All this from a layabout who is overweight and does nothing but watch TV all day every day..and the sad thing is if it wasn’t for his shady behaviour that had me ‘researching’ I might never have found BR and might still be in it because he could be very very lovely (narc)!
Instead I have found myself in the first fully functional loving relationship I have ever been in. Thanks Nat and all others who post
@Wren
What’s the point in telling someone the amount of NC you want? That’s like saying I’m going NC but I am really not that serious about it and we can pick up from where we left off. “Biggest Mistake Ever” From reading your list you need to RUN with no indication of ever looking back.
I think I have been my own worst chopper. I have chopped myself to pieces too often. I have been told I am too self-deprecating, hide my light under a bushel, never blow my own trumpet, bring myself down, and all the rest.
I have recently given this some thought and decided that sometimes I do it so as to make other people feel better about themselves/less insecure about themselves (wtf is that all about!), and sometimes I think because I don’t want to appear arrogant or bossy but actually what I am doing is appearing *not* confident or assertive (which is very different from arrogant and bossy).
I went for a job interview last week. I didn’t get it. My feedback was that I came a close second to five other candidates who reached the interviews, that I did very well but that I kept undermining my own answers and I’ve to stop doing that even if I think my answer is not all that it could be I have *not* to point it out to the panel!(wtf am I all about!). I was told I have to let it be what it is and let the panel decide, as what I had to say was actually quite impressive (I just kept undermining it)
I chopped myself! In an interview for a job where I am supposed to be selling myself, I chopped myself down (wtf?!). And it’s not the first time I’ve done this. It’s been pointed out to me before. Yep, in interview feedback! This time tho’, the very nice woman boss who was giving me my feedback, by telephone, really took the time to explain to me exactly and precisely what I had done and why I should not and need not be doing it. Finally, the penny dropped. So, I have made the most solemn promise to myself which I intend to keep till the day I die: I will never, ever bad mouth myself ever again. Not a word. Not a syllable. No more self-chopping. I’ll leave that to other people (who I will duly ignore!)
A friend I had about ten years ago said to me once (and I wished I’d taken her more seriously): ‘why do you always bring yourself down? You shouldn’t do that because there’ll be plenty of other folk out there willing enough to do it for you.’
It strikes me that all these choppers I’m reading about on this thread are those other folk. Eeeek. These people are very bad news indeed. We need to have a much bigger message – the one we are telling ourselves, loudly.
Wow, a good lesson for all of us in that. Sorry you didn’t get the job, Fearless, but I’m glad the woman gave you feedback that you have found so transformative.
Thanks Mags! Hope the landlord situation gets sorted soon; sorry to hear you’re having to deal with this crap already in your new place. All the best! Hang in there – you’ve done so well already.
yeah, fearless, i’m a self-chopper too – both to ward off criticism and to make others more comfortable. screw that. if we want to make someone comfortable, we just make them feel good, but not at our own expense.
i’m so sorry you didn’t get the job, but very glad that the boss gently explained it to you. it might be worth losing that job to learn this lesson, and to also get the good feedback that what you had to say was great.
it is difficult and weird to not self-chop, to let, if necessary, a silence fall. i realize i’m terrified of that silence. so i just breathe. let the silence, and the chips, fall where it/they may, and breathe.
cc – thanks.
“it is difficult and weird to not self-chop, to let, if necessary, a silence fall.”
I so get that! Very well put! Yep, let’s just let the silence and the chips fall where they will. No more self-chopping – let it just be what it is. Let someone else fill the silence.
I wanted to come back to this comment because what you’ve shared is invaluable and the subject of a whole other post in itself Fearless. Thank you.
Sometimes we need an experience like this to happen to give us the swift boot up the arse that we need. We have habits of relating and engaging that we don’t even realise that we’re doing. Sometimes on some level we do and then when someone points it out and there is a cost to what we have done, it becomes painfully clear.
This experience was a blessing in disguise. Thank goodness, as the others pointed out, that lady took the time to explain.
From one ex self-chopper to another, I hear you. I am still learning the habit of talking about myself. I don’t chop me (although I’ve had to learn how to listen to myself) but I have been guilty of under representing myself.
Out of this experience will come better experiences and stick to the commitment. Eventually it will be a natural habit.
Sometimes we have to speak up and sometimes we have to stop over editing ourselves and worrying about what we think the other person will think.
Hi all,
Things over here in day-before-classes-ville are rocky, as the relationship with my new landlord has exploded. My new roommate and I have given our notice.
Now, with all I learned from BR, I was literally seconds away from walking away from this tenancy before it started, having seen red flags. I chose to go against my own judgment and go with the opinion of the roommate and be more ‘flexible,’ and now here we are with a landlord who continues to try to claw back pieces of what she promised to include under our agreement.
My new roommate, a male, has just arrived and now is dealing with the landlord himself (I did almost all initial contact) and NOW he agrees the landlord is beyond difficult. What is very difficult for me is that I am upset, and he wants to do the talking with her because he thinks I’m too upset.
I am really caught: I am upset and angry, but do not want to let a man I really only barely know suddenly step in and be the calm one and do my negotiating.
We have given our notice. We have to move. I am stressed beyond belief. Would you believe I even had a bike wipeout this morning and conked myself on the pave and the office ladies called first aid? I’m off balance!
I have to say that in my mind I am chopping the *shit* out of this lady (the landlord) and my visible seething fury, or weepiness, is making it hard for me to be taken seriously by those who have just arrived on the scene. If there is a way to be angry at someone for renegging on a contract, multiple times, and playing the victim, without calling her a b*tch – I am not there yet!! I am doing very well holding it together by my own standards, though.
In any case I’ve been enthralled by this post and thought I’d share this link that I came across as I searched for help on how to deal with my landlord.
It’s called “improving assertive behaviour” and what struck me most about the 10 assertive rights about an individual was the right to *not* have to explain behaviour and the right to change one’s mind. It never occurred to me before that “Others may try to manipulate my behavior and feelings by demanding to know my reasons and by trying to persuade me that I am wrong, but I know that I am the ultimate judge”.
I stopped, because in part I have both given reasons for my behaviour and listened to reasons given, not realizing that no one *has* to give reasons. I always felt I had the right to know *why* and the obligation to say why when asked.
This insight has helped me look through the protestations of my landlord as she decided to cancel services (“poor me”) and think, I don’t need the explanations, all I know is your behaviour, and I don’t need to explain my response or choice.
However, when I hear a lie or read a lie, I lose my freaking mind.
In any case, I think explaining *other* people’s behaviour, i.e. deciding WE know the reasons for another’s behaviour, is what can lead to chopping them. “You just don’t know x,” for example, or “you always do that because you are so y.” And when we’re on the receiving end, it hurts because it sounds so true.
I’ve found my new roomie constantly is like, well, the landlord must be worried about x, or she’s probably concerned about y, even after he agreed that she has screwed him over. And he seems to react as if I am too emotional. And surely, me swearing suggests as much. But if we had gone with my “too emotional” reaction (to cancel the deal) the first time she pulled this crap, we wouldn’t be having to move now.
I have a lot to learn about assertiveness, but one thing is for sure, the more I get, the less of these messes I’ll have to clean up.
What an amazing post! Reading the comments was also a huge wake up call. A “light bulb” moment that I hope will help me process the last person I dated. I’m beginning to see that I was basically chopped from the end of date two, on. And boy could he chop, even double and reverse chop. Near the end, I remember him comparing me to his ex-wife to illustrate why he was beginning to resent me. Then comparing me (unfavorably and almost obsessively) to the “one who got away” eight years earlier, who I suspect he chopped at too.
He thought he could “read people” so well because he was a highly paid, aggressive divorce attorney and “did this” for a living. I still feel water boarded from experiencing all of the put downs, etc.. Even when he ended things via e-mail, he was chopping away, but in a sugar coated way. Closure discussion (at my initiation, but gladly agreed to), even worse.
Two things also come to mind: 1) he was always talking about himself, so he really didn’t get to know me – but was an expert; 2) I must have sensed danger because I really didn’t open up to him. The few personal things I did mention were inappropriately thrown back in my face early on. Or he chopped on others, which told me I would be “chopping conversation” somewhere down the line. I often felt like I was being interviewed, or deposed. Yet I continued to focus on his good qualities, or why I wasn’t good enough, or what I had done wrong for him to lose interest.
One of the reasons the experience has been so difficult to process: I knew he was putting me down, yet I let it continue, didn’t stand up for myself, or walk. At the same time I could see his opinion of me going way down, yet I ignored it, hoping things would turn around.
All that was pre-BR I’m beginning to know myself better now and just need to forgive “ME” and let it all sink in. I have too much good stuff to offer someone who will appreciate and value it. That’s what I need to learn to focus on.
Thank you NML. You are a true gift to the world. x
Swissmiss:
Oh wow! That last exchange between teachable & dancing queen made me realize something: I have a girlfriend who does that: chop, chop, chop. The entire time I was rejecting the MMs love-talk as just a lot of blather, and trying to keep my humor and equilibrium to keep a healthy distance, she was throwing chops at me left, right and center: “You can’t even see when someone loves you!” I would shoot back no, he loves how I make him feel, but he knows almost nothing about me, he certainly cannot love me. On and on it went. “You’re too hard on him him,” “He’s having a rough time,” “You shouldn’t have said that,” blah blah blah. I wonder if any of you experienced this…someone rejecting your reality because they ‘know better’ even when your self-preservation is on the line. If this individual hadn’t had an affair herself, and subsequently left her husband, I never would have shared with her. Good thing I didn’t heed those chops, or someone would be scraping me off the floor.”
I just experienced this same behavior but in the opposite direction. I was about to start dating a man who had recently become a widower and I had “friends” come out of the wood-work to tell me that he was still married (WTH, I saw him leave for his wife’s funeral) and would become abusive to me because he’d been married before. (???) I know realize these “friends” (and, I use the term loosely) were jealous of what he had to offer – sweet, decent, kind, financially well-off.) The friend who used the abusive line on me did it *knowing* that I had just gotten out of a seriously abusive relationship and was a little sensitive about what sort of man to get involved with next. Looking back on it, I can’t believe I let them talk me out of what could have been a perfectly good relationship, but I did, and that’s something I’ll have to learn to live with in years to come.
Selkie — love the food for thought! lol very funny.
I wanted to share that I did read an article on misogynists — men who hate women — and it really sounds like choppers. Misogyny is pretty sinister and I’m sure there are varying degrees of it. I used to date someone who I think is a woman hater and feels like he can put them down to make himself feel better. I wish I could warn other women about him he might date. No one should have to go through what I did.
Natalie – Thank you SO much for this blog post!!! You can count me in among the many others this has spoken so clearly to. I’ve been trying to figure out for years what happened to me in a particular relationship, and this fits exactly. The “chopper” label is perfect – it felt like someone taking an axe to my emotions, to my sense of self and confidence, and hacking them to pieces. Very descriptive, it got right to the heart of things. Your way of describing this, and others in the comments, has helped me move past this experience in a way I never imagined possible. Huge thanks. I couldn’t agree more with what you said in your comment here: “The fact that people here are saying that the post has managed to capture a very specific type of experience (and bearing in mind that other experiences are very common knowledge) is enough.” SO true. 🙂
Lucy….
I was in a similar situation. He managed to manipulate my friends and them on his side with his charming relentless manner. He was no successful with a couple of them. He did manage to get my oldest friend who did not stand by me, then tried to act like nothing happened. I have sent her to the curb. I was with him 13 years and he us described to a T in all of these posts and Natalie’s articles. He is an abuser and it damn near killed me.
I am registered for Natalie’s course’s. Finding this website has saved my life.
Jennifer
Jennifer, I’m so sad to hear about what you have experienced but we are definitely on a similar page and I fully appreciate where you are coming from. I’ve found Natalie’s writing so empowering. It reminds me that working out a new me involves clearing out some of the ‘friend’ baggage. One of my former friends turned ugly when she took the side of an abusive boyfriend who hit me, and a man who sexually harassed me. She completely gaslighted me and I have only now worked it out. Some of my other friends did see more of his side but it was more about their own self-esteem issues than about any malice towards me. I doubt they’d recognise that abusive behaviour if it happened to them.
Well I definitely know you feel. What hurts the most is thinking that those men I dated are so narcissistic that they will always have a clear conscience and never feel like they have done anything wrong. They were able to move on swiftly while all the love I gave them only drained me and I never got the affection back. It hurts that only I know how horrible they were. Sometimes I want the world to see past their outward charms and get a sense of what I know.
I hope you are moving on well and find a happy place.
– Lucy
Perhaps I ought clarify. I wasn’t suggesting this site is about NPD or any other disorders. I was just coming from a feminist perspective on language & naming of abuse. This only my opinion, & I’m saying it means I’m right & that anyone is right, but my point were thus (in accordance with my feminist framework of understanding of abuse):
When we call abuse by other names, slang, euphemisms etc we diminish what we are describing & it’s impact upon us as survivors of those experiences (for those who’ve experienced it, like the woman who was left that terrible list). Also, we cannot heal what we don’t or haven’t yet acknowledged. Emotional abuse is incredibly powerful as too, is verbal abuse. Emotional abuse because unlike the bruises of physical abuse, it’s wounds go much deeper to the very core of our self esteem & it’s so terribly difficult to recognise. Verbal abuse is just one of many ‘axes’ used to inflict the wounds of emotional abuse, although it exists also as a seperate entity. In order to recognise either emotional abuse or verbal abuse, you need to first to know what it is. That is, to know what it is called. In trying to understand why one might be feeling & experiencing a whole range of emotions & behaviour in response to the abuse, one first needs to recognised one is in fact being abused, & further, in what way (in this case emotional and or verbal). Once a person realises this critical fact a whole world of healing is available to them, which includes things like understanding the cycle of abuse, trauma bonding, compulsion repetition etc. People will only discover this though if they first learn what they are experiencing i.e abuse.
Thus, for example, we might call a person who puts others down a chopper, but where it occurrs as a pattern of behaviour consistently over time we might refer to it as emotional abuse & the person doing the behaviour, as a perpetrator of abuse.
I know I’m making very fine distictions here but when people start saying things like, ‘I’ve been chopped’ when what they mean is’ ‘I’ve been emotionally abused’ I think we do them a disservice by not pointing them in the right direction.
Like I said we can’t HEAL what we don’t acknowledge. So, if I look at myself in the mirror & say, meh, I got chopped, whatev..it really has not a lot impact. But when I look at myself in the mirror & I say, I am a survivor of emotional abuse & really think about the actions I am responsible for in placing myself in a position for that to happen, it has a whole different meaning.
It’s a small distinction & again only an opinion & not commenting at all narrcissism or whatever. My only concern is that women who have been abused learn to recognise that for what it actually is & not diminish it in any way, because as we all know, the consequences for those subjected to this & stay in these situations, can be horrendous.
Teachable, You’ve been supportive of others on this blog many times. I understand that abuse should not be minimized, and I agree, but no one here is minimizing it when we call it a name you don’t like. I am an advocate for women too, but I do not share the idea that unless I call it emotional or verbal abuse out loud that I cannot comprehend it.
“Like I said we can’t HEAL what we don’t acknowledge. So, if I look at myself in the mirror & say, meh, I got chopped, whatev..it really has not a lot impact.”
I know abuse, I’ve lived it. I recognize it. I didn’t minimize it and say, “meh, whatever” because I didn’t say the words emotional an verbal abuse and name it ‘properly’. To say women are unable to understand it unless they name it with specific words is condescending, and actually really simplifying the process of understanding. Being bossy about how you feel we should express ouselves only makes me feel like your pushing my boundaries and telling me how to speak. It’s not your job to tell women what ‘they mean to say’. We all have our own voice. Your voice counts, but don’t minimize mine because it sounds different than yours.
I’m not saying I’m right or that you NML or anyone else is wrong I meant. I’m just a bit of a stickler about language used to describe abuse of women, that’s all. I’m not disagreeing that some people chop others down. They do. Where it’s a pattern of behaviour though I’m making the point it’s important to indentify this as emotional abuse & name it such, that’s all.
Teachable, thank you for your response. I’m a grown woman of 35 and a number of readers on this thread alone are older than me. I feel somewhat bemused that you would take the tone and attitude that you did under the guise of feminism. Feminism is not about women who think that they know more imposing themselves upon other women. It doesn’t feel better for a woman to do it instead of a man.
Women are able to empower others and empower themselves without having to take a pop at others. We also have our own free will and mind. I don’t like the pervasive attitude in the world at large (not you specifically) that women seem to be too stupid to make up their own mind and to make their own choices. We can’t read, do or see certain things because we might not think what certain others want us to think.
As women we are allowed to have our own thoughts and make our own choices.
It’s not that people here don’t get the points that you and other detractors about the term and comments were making, but in being so focused on the trees instead of the wood, you ended up creating friction for the sake of trying to control people about the use of language.
Here’s the thing that disturbs me about your argument: lies, cheating, being controlling, for example, are all forms of abuse particularly when done repeatedly. Are you now telling me that we cannot call these terms ‘lies’, ‘cheating’ and ‘controlling’ when talking about the specific behaviour?
Let me assure you Teachable – you cannot control me and as you’ve seen, readers will not be silenced. You may be a stickler for language but you’ve got a big task on your hands if you’re going to take to task everyone who doesn’t use the language you want.
ok got it sm. yes I guess the guy I described earlier was a ‘chopper’ in that sense also. he wasn’t emotionally or verbally abusive though as I never allowed it to get that far ie I opted out. perhaps therein i can make peace with this new terminology. a chopper is someone who chops you down but it hasnt yet progressed to a pattern of behaviour fitting the description of emotional abuse. that would certainly describe that guy. i feel a lot better thinking of it this way.
I have read many books and was in horror and disbelief that these behaviors described this man. For 13 years. It started out with him being moody, sulking, not wanting to participate. He would get atagonistic, arguing, and picking apart everything. I was always wrong, something not right, criticizing, jokes at my expense. It was like he was a prosecuting attorney. At times I feel he missed his calling. It moved to belittling me, putting down my profession, humiliating me in public, never knowing when he would make a scene, ruining countless vacations. Oh there were wonderful times too, that’s what made it so confusing. And many times, I had enough and broke up with him, broke off engagement, only to have him cry and plead and work his way back in. Then amazing sex. That always worked. I always felt bad. It felt like he was a charming, hypnotic drug you couldn’t stay away from but made you feel horrible later. He has a big personality and lots of friends. He always wanted to hang out with mine and seemed to corral certain ones with his charm. Always so generous, so helpful with them. He was to me too, when he wanted to or felt he could, but those never included helping with the house. He sat and watched TV as my mother and I pushed furniture and would not lift a finger. A few of my friends he somehow knew he could not sway and manipulate.
He kept tabs on me, angry when I did not answer the phone when out with a girlfriend, making me feel offbalance, insecure, and unhappy before I had to make a conference presentation somewhere with a cold aloof attitude. When I reconnected with a friend I had not seen in 15 years, who I knew since I was five, he manipulated her enough so that she betrayed me. She acted like nothing happened and he didnt say anything. A true loyal friend told me he tried it with her and what he said to her. I immediately knew who he manipulated. When I called him on it he got very angry. I stopped talking to my oldest friend after he did that. I remembered how she was in 7th grade and nothing really changed. But He took away my oldest friend, someone 5 minutes away I could have coffee or shop with. Gone. He knew what he did. He found nothing wrong with it. He is cruel.
I went to counseling with him with 4 different counselors over the 13 years. They said to me, this person is an abuser, has a personality disorder and is not going to be helped, meds dont help this. The last year when he got progressively angrier, I got him to see a different therapist for other meds and told her everything. He screamed in her office, Im furious, I dont think I want to see her again! He conveniently forgets things and rewrites history. He cant remember saying and doing things.
Once when he drove, he got angry when I said please let me have my own friends, dont commandeer them like you do, you have so many of your own. He got furious and pounded his fist into his window about 20 times, waited a minute, then did it again.
I wrote countless letters over the years, telling him to stop. That he needed help. I informed his parents, who couldnt be bothered. I let his doctors know. I told the couples counselor I saw 4 times before he hacked into my computer and email accounts. After he did that, I refused to go any more.
He is controlling, manipulative and belittling. He would talk in a way to me on the phone that was condescending and I knew his friends were listening to it. I never knew how he would act from one hour to the next. Everyone sees him as generous kind, loving. he drops everything to help his friends. I always felt I was just one of the crowd when out with them.
Yes, he is a chopper. He is all of the behaviors discussed on this website. He has a pattern, it is systematic, and frequent. He is an emotional abuser, a verbal abuser, extremely intelligent, highly communicative, charming, political, manipulative and seductive. He knew me so well, I felt understood, loved and safe. He knew every button to push in a good way. And in a bad way. He could take it all away with a look, a glare, a snarl. And he was the injured one, wounded and hurt. All about him. He never thought he did anything wrong with how he treated or talked to me.
And even in a hospital bed post op when I visited him, he still controlled, still hurt.
This site describes in detail and gives a name to every facet and behavior that these people do, so that we can spot it readily. I have read a lot of sites on emotional and verbal abuse, and yes reading those, I knew intellectually what it was but it was still at arms length somehow. After reading Nat’s articles, I recognize every thing up close and in context with examples of the feeling I get in reaction to the behavior. It has been invaluable.
I have a long road ahead. I miss many of the good times and places and things we did. I have to stop intrusive thoughts and pining for what was, because it wasnt. I have to feel better about myself, increase self esteem after all this chipping and chopping, and take care of myself for a change. I believe I can get there with this site, her course, and the collective wisdom here. I hope I get to “chat” with many of you on these boards. I have never been in such emotional pain in my personal life. But I have a lot to be thankful for. I have a successful career, my house I grew up in, a few very loyal friends, I still have my mom, and I’m here.
Jennifer
“This site describes in detail and gives a name to every facet and behavior that these people do, so that we can spot it readily. […]. After reading Nat’s articles, I recognize every thing up close and in context with examples of the feeling I get in reaction to the behavior. It has been invaluable.”
This.
Be strong Jennifer: I’m sending you positive energy from here. You’ll make it.
First of all, I absolutely love this site. With so many messages I doubt Natalie will read mine, but I’m gonna write it anyway: thank you. No more psychologists, no more psychiatrists that don’t even seem to know what a manipulative relationship is but blame me, the object of manipulation, thus bringing me down once more, in a spiral of guilt and shame.
My ex is a bad person. He is cruel, that’s it. My personality and my history lead me to date such a person, fall in love, be (almost) destroyed by him. Yet I’m grateful it happened, because my life 2 years ago was spiralling downwards, as I was surrounded by people who didn’t love me, didn’t appreciate me, didn’t even like me, alas!
It’s never only a man, one man, one relationship. If you are involved with a man who is a chopper, well, look around because there’s a big chance your best friend, your boss, your colleagues, you relatives treat you in the exact same way. May be they are more cautios but the aggressivity is there. You are letting them break you, tear your very soul apart.
That’s why what Natalie writes about taking the big step to avoid relationships for a while and concentrate on ourselves is SO vital.
Sick love stories are only a place to hide, they are the chain that binds you to your self-destruction. Set free, because there’s no cage, it’s just in your mind, there’s no fog, that’s just our fear to be in charge of our destiny. And we fear it because somebody, long ago, told us “you are not good enough!” –> well, it’s a lie.
They can chop us because we are not conscious of our value, our strength, our role in our own lives. Constantly expecting validation from “them”, we are letting “them” decided wether we are “worth it” or not, we are condemning ourselves to failure.
I had it all, all I had ever dreamed of, and he manipulated me into thinking it was worth nothing. This is not love, even though it might be soothing to think it was: those men are not capable of true love. Love for them is to own, to rule upon, to dominate.
So girls, let’s be the ones who chop for once, let’s cut them off from our lives and put ourselves on the throne, in the golden room, in the safest place inside our hearts, instead of treating ourselves like beggars or thieves or beasts who can only be liberated by the charming prince on his white horse.
Well said!! Thank you for that!
And it´s true, this year I´ve opened my eyes not only to an EUM´s “romance” manipulations but also to so called friends who have been intent on using me to feel better about themselves. Having erased them from my life, I sometimes feel quite alone – but not lonely.
I am slowly getting to know new people who are so much better for me because they never judge me. I try to convince myself that once I get the other, destructive relationships out of my system I´ll have room for good ones to enter.
Love your comment, Lila. Very wise.
They are called narcissists and being married to one(thankfully I’m divorced now) has cost me thousands of dollars in therapy to fix what he did to me. Please, don’t be afraid to seek help from these people!!!
Sheesh Natalie based on the intensity of the responses, I think you’ve struck a chord with your description of the emotionally/verbally abusive chopper. As I previously mentioned, I’ve read numerous books on the subject but your description and the comments should be published…with the permission of course. I awoke all night with nightmares.
The common thread with regards to emotionally/verbally abusive choppers is that it doesn’t seem real. As I read the list of alleged wrongdoings from the comments, I re-visited the list of things I was accused of doing wrong including:
1) Walking my dog the wrong way (there is a right way to walk a dog?); 2) Feeding my daughter white rice instead of brown rice; 3) Not requiring my daughter to help decorate the x-mas tree. Then when when she acquiesced, she decorated it the wrong way (there’s a right way to decorate an x-mas tree?; 4) Not being strict enough with my daughter as well as being too strict; 5) Providing test dates and topics on my syllabus-supposedly the right way to teach is just go with the flow and talk about whatever you want and give a test whenever; 6) Not eating a healthy diet, despite the fact his fav was french fries and beer. I got chopped hard for enjoying his favorite with him; 7) Running isn’t healthy, the only healthy form of exercise is biking. The flipping list was endless, inconsistent, and could change at a moment’s notice. Nobody in their right mind could believe it. Not even me and I wasn’t in my right mind. While we were “dating” there was NOT one clue as to his pathology. NOT ONE. Swear to god. The minute I agreed to being a couple, this insidious shit started to surface. It was so surreal, I couldn’t believe it. Nobody says this stuff that is so blatantly untrue. While my conscious rational mind knew something was way, way wrong, my emotional side kept hoping I’d convince him. OH GOD NO. Emotional/verbal choppers are not redeemable. That’s what my nightmares were about, saving hung little girls…yikes.
But…after a long night of nightmares which may have assisted in working through residual issues regarding the ex-Chopper, I awoke to a warm beautiful morning and had a wonderful day. I taught my classes, according to the topics listed on the syllabus. I’ve met a wonderful new girlfriend from the gym and we went out for happy hour. My daughter and I are going shopping for a new couch this weekend. Now, tell me this isn’t how life should be! I’m so grateful Natalie. Of course, this is how life should be, calm, peaceful, authentic, and honest. Today was just a really, really good happy day. I enjoyed every moment and was conscious of enjoying every moment. I think, with your assistance, I may be emerging out of that darkness. Thank you certainly doesn’t cover it.
Jaysus how awful to be having nightmares but it’s true – it was your mind processing in your sleep and having a cleanse. You’re chopping him out of your mind and your system. Big hugs for a better sleep today and jealous-o-clock over your sofa shopping.
“There’s a right way to walk a dog?” I’m reminded of a friend of mine who was in the Navy. He had to complete some forms for a senior officer whom he worked for. He completed the forms, clipped them together with a paper clip, and turned them in — only to get an angry tirade from the officer.
Apparently, there is a right way to clip papers together. You know the two loops in a paper clip? The smaller one has to be facing up.
HOW do these people come up with these things? There’s NOTHING too silly or insignificant for them to chop someone about!
I felt sympathy for the people who had to work for this officer…but can you imagine being this guy’s wife (or son or daughter)?
Not sure that this is really on topic but I really need some support that I made the right decision.
I just broke up officially with my EUM. In the beginning of the relationship he exhibited all the classic behaviors of an EUM, which including one particularly horrible period where we were ‘kind of’ living together (he was there during the week for work, went back to his mother on weekends) where he became a hardcore chopper. I moved to another city, he turned back into Mr Wonderful – he didn’t really turn back into an asshole except for a few incidents but he kept me a secret from his friends and family and except for one or two occasions, refused to meet mine. I’ve been trying to break up with him for the last month and finally it got through to him last night and we made it official. I keep thinking of all the good times and wondering if I made a mistake – but we clearly don’t want the same things, I want a guy that will introduce me to his friends and family and eventually move in together. He says I’m too impatient, that I need to give him time (we’ve been together 18 months). Our age difference of 30 years is supposedly to blame so that’s why I was understanding at the beginning but after nearly two years I think it’s just an excuse, hence the decision to break. He feels like it’s coming out of the blue and accuses me of wanting to meet someone else, he just cannot understand that the reasons I’m telling him could be the truth.
Intellectually I know it’s the right decision, but my sentiments are confusing me. My gut is silent on this one….help!!
kitty-
omg….really, no thought is required on this guy.
how should you run away from him? let me count the ways:
– he’s a chopper – EJECT
– there’s a 30-year age difference (i don’t even want to know who is older) – EJECT
– he lives/d with his mother – EJECT
– you’re a secret and he doesn’t want to be in your life in any real way – EJECT
– he sounds like an asshole who doesn’t seem to give a crap about you, so what “good times” could there really have been?? – EJECT
– he doesn’t respect you/your point of view – EJECT
– he ALWAYS, and always WILL, have an excuse to not be in a relationship with you – EJECT
– i can discern no reason why you would ever want to be with this guy – EJECT
KITTY! you don’t need to explain anything to him! you don’t need him to agree with you! your opinion is more than enough!
just go NC. and i mean NO. CONTACT. he’s an ass. you deserve better. most especially from yourself! what the hell?!?!?
Thanks CC. Well, there were a lot of good times, although to be honest it was always weekends and trips away, so limited time basically. Anyone can be a great boyfriend for a weekend or a holiday. He would bring me roses every time, take me to great restaurants etc, the sex was great and he helped me out financially when I was jobless for three months and helped me move across the country. I discovered a lot of different places and different things with him. So, this is why it’s so hard to let go. But yes, he’s lived with his mother for the last 6 years or so (argh). I just received an email today from him. One of the things that put me over the edge and deciding to break up was his refusal to go to a good friend’s wedding of mine. He cannot understand the reason why this would upset me. He wrote “this problem of your friend’s wedding is a strong symbol for you. You need to understand what is behind that. Why would you be ashamed that your boyfriend, that no one knows, wouldn’t be there with you? Of course it’s a way to place yourself in relation to her, you feel inferieur because you are alone, less loved? Isn’t it a bit of jealousy or pride, or show?
Maybe one day you will lose this friend (I hope not), maybe you will have less esteem for her. What value then has this ‘symbolic absence’ at her wedding on our relationship today?”. Again, a wake up call. How many times do I need to confirm he’s an asshole before I forget the nice times and good qualities? I’m so mad at myself right now.
Kitty,
Sheesh – what a lot of bollocks. What part of “being a couple” do these guys not flippin’ get?!
It’s not “symbolic” absence, it’s just plain absence. It’s about his absence in his relationship with *you* not in your relationship with your friend.
This guys sounds like a tool. His stupid email makes me angry for you! Flush.
Dear Kitty,
Wow. OMG. That is triple A grade, gold medal bullshit. The expression ‘you couldn’t make it up’ is all I can think of. It’s almost wondrous in the pure, manipulative perfection of the shaming, blaming and twisting of reality. I want to laugh (shock and horror). You will laugh at this one day though, properly and with relief I imagine, when you have some distance from the ridiculous, inadequate, posturing, shameless ego that dumps it’s cargo of internal crap on you. Sorry, I have been in serious denial of reality myself for a long time so maybe I am hyper sensitive now. But really, WTF. I have read thousands of comments on this blog, with gratitude for the sharing, intelligence and honesty which has helped me back to my life, basically. But the sheer evil of that manipulative message has stunned me. Glad you’re ok, and take care, “well out of it” is all I can say to you.
Thank you Fearless, CC and Matilda – I’m going to print out your comments and stick them by the phone. Thanks for your support xox
kitty-
waltzing matilda nailed it, so i have one more
– shoots grade A, gold medal bullshit therapy speak from hell at you for wanting him at a wedding at which no one knows he exists because HE made YOU a secret = pure evil = EJECT
oh, man, kitty. he’s really pure bastard. but no one is 100% bad…ok, hitler, pol pot and idi amin were 100% bad, but there are few of those.
don’t be mad at you and don’t be confused by his good qualities (i should be writing this to myself) – just because he bought you flowers doesn’t mean he’s not an utter AC. seriously – do not be mad at you. don’t perpetuate the abuse by abusing yourself inside your head.
“you need to understand what is behind that”
Patronizing faux-“helpful” therapy-speak from hell.
The impact on “our relationship today” is that he’s not showing up for “our relationship today”; instead he’s psychoanalyzing you have deep insecurities because you dare to point out he’s not showing up for “our relationship today.” The relationship consists of complete mind-effery.
SO GLAD YOU BROKE UP WITH HIM
All he wants is for you to agree with his deep insights and sign up for more non-relationship tomorrow, the next day, and so on until he finds someone else to torture.
Thank you NML and readers/survivors
I had just written a really long comment and wanted to post but lost it dunno what I clicked on. Arghh Nevermind.
I just wanted to thank you all, I have survived the worst. This is just to check in and say hi and send you my best wishes. Your good advice saw me through the first days, the really cruel ones. Be brave and keep your head up, act like a lady, and by no means allow any more chopping or abuse, no matter how much you endured so far.
Im In week 5 NC and started to see the light :). Its really getting better after day 20. I still have ups and downs, yesterday I cried, But overall I believe I overcame the most terrible time of my life.
Ill keep posting, there are so many feelings Im experiencing, sometimes I feel im going crazy if I dont share them with someone.
Cheers to all 🙂
Im sorry that you or anyone else has had such a reaction to what I shared NML. I said very clearly I was expressing only an opinion, & that it didnt mean I was right & others were wrong. I dont feel the I need judge other ppls langauge. I was just having a conversation about the introduction of a new term & what *I* thought about it, against a certain backdrop of training (in my case a feminist perspective of violence against women). What I stated previously about that is all pretty standard basic stuff. Not anything I’m making up or based my own thinking, or theories. I wish it was! To have been so insightful to realise such things as original thought would be quite a coup. I dont disagree with any readers either. This is not a ‘hot’ topic for me in the sense that I feel any emotional attachment to it any way. I stated what feminist theory on VAW says & that’s pretty much it. I happen to agrre with the theory, so that part is my opinion. I’m more than adult enough to understand ppl have diff views & thoughts on things. That’s what makes life interesting. I merely was pointing out something I felt important. That is, naming abuse as abuse. As for lies being abuse (sorry dont recall the other things you mentioned), I would say that lying is a form a deception, & deception is dishonesty & dishonesty can indeed be one feature of abuse, but neccessarily, even as a pattern of behaviour. It is possible for example to be a habitual liar, without being emotionally &/or verbally abusive. Not sure if that helps anyone. Cheers.
You said earlier in the thread,
“Please can we refer to these men as what they ARE ie abusers & not choppers? It’s incredibly important that women recognise when they are being abused & name it for what it is. Ta.”
Now you say,
“I said very clearly I was expressing only an opinion, & that it didnt mean I was right & others were wrong. I dont feel the I need judge other ppls langauge.”
I’m not trying to attack you Teachable but, you did take a tone with us at how we express ourselves. And it wasn’t ‘merely’ an opinion but asking us to please change the way we do it as you clearly stated. We all had “such a reaction” to what you said, not what you’re trying to say now. Now, I’m letting it go.
p.s. You said, “sm what you’re you describe about neediness is not ‘chopping’. It’s emotional abuse”
That is policing our language. Clear and simple. Okay, now I really am letting it go. I’ve said my peace.
Not trying to re-ignite the language topic but I wanted to say one thing only:
What is really effective about Nat’s turn of phrase, language and descriptions of our bad relationship experiences is that it helps us to see what is really going on. It enlightens, it illuminates – by showing, not by telling. That’s why it works. Probably (maybe ironically) much more so than simply telling us, “now ladies, this here is what is called emotional abuse”. I for one was so stuck in the fog of EUM crap that I wouldn’t have believed her. I do now! It works. Thank god something does.
And just to return to topic as NML rightly point’s out in this post, ppl who attack the self esteem of others, often have no qualms whatsoever in doing so. At least that was the case with my ‘chopper’ (referred to previously) & made the rediculousness of his comments stick out like dogs gonads! LOL
“Not eating a healthy diet, despite the fact his fav was french fries and beer. I got chopped hard for enjoying his favorite with him;”
I was the victim of this one, too, runnergirl. My ex frequently told me he ate all of his food raw although I frequently saw him eating fast food and pizza. I realize, now, that his remarks were a flimsy attempt to control my own eating habits. Thank God I didn’t listen to him. He frequently bragged that his ex-wife was a size zero-zero; I’m a gorgeous, curvy girl (not fat at all; I’m 108 lbs, 4’10” tall). I wonder, now, if he didn’t give her an eating disorder with all his nagging. I saw a picture of her once and she’s a stick thin, drop-dead gorgeous red-head, yet I’m sure he found things to criticize about her, too. He should thank his lucky stars she even agreed to marry him; he’s not exactly model material his own self. Even when I whipped up vegan meals, my ex couldn’t bring himself to say something nice or even vaguely complimentary. It was raw food or nothing for him.
I just want to say this blog and this article and the NC article have all been so helpful and timely for me. Thank you NML and thanks to the ladies on here posting their experiences. I don’t feel so alone. I had began NC and was on week 2 when the chopper came a texting. I now start over and I’m on day 3. It’s hard but I can see why it’s so critical. He was devastatingly cruel and stealing my heart. Now I move on…I wish all of you peace as you get through this stuff.
I actually meant to say he was devastatingly cruel AFTER stealing my heart
The supervisor at my last job actually asked me to dress for him: “I need to rate you on your appearance.” And when I asked to transfer to a more demanding shift, he told me “You wouldn’t even know when they {meaning the children I’d be working with” were trying to manipulate you.” I have a Bachelor’s degree and almost that in journalism and psychology credits from the extension school of a very prestigious university (more education than he can shake a stick at). I suspect he said what he did because he was jealous of an office flirtation I was carrying on with someone on the other shift, although I asked to transfer for health reasons. I’m wondering, Natalie, if you can write a post on men being rude to girls they like. (I know that’s what I was dealing with here.) And PUA – I find many of the PUA techniques – negs, insults, etc. to be flat-out abusive and I’ve had to deal with too many people pulling these lines on me – not just potential boyfriends, but people in positions of authority as well. My last landlord spent the entire three months of my tenancy insulting my housekeeping, my professional position, and everything else he could think of. I know he was attracted to me (he wasn’t exactly subtle). He tried to make me jealous of his long-term girlfriend, saying his girlfriend hated my housekeeping as well. He was flat-out stalking me at one point and kept coming over to make surprise “inspections” of my property (one time he actually opened my cupboards to examine the contents and I’ve caught him creeping around inside my house when he thought I was elsewhere.) And he acted shocked – SHOCKED – when I took him up on his threats to evict me without probable cause. I know his eviction notice was il-legit because he’s spent the last two weeks literally *begging* me to stay at the property. (As *if* I would put up with his abhorrent behavior). My question is, how do I separate the genuinely abusive ones from nice guys with bad game? I’ve gotten so used to men being *horrid* to me for their own amusement that I can’t separate the abuse from gentle teasing anymore.
Freedom
“I’ve gotten so used to men being *horrid* to me for their own amusement that I can’t separate the abuse from gentle teasing anymore.”
I know what you mean. I have a feeling though that there are no good reasons for anyone to be ‘gently teasing’ another person. I suspect there is always something more insidious going on behind what some folk would like to call their ‘gentle teasing'(as if it’s harmless – I’m not sure that it is, or that’s it’s even intended to be). Maybe it’s the same as a “gentle chopping”! (it’s easy for people to say, ‘oh I was only teasing’ after they have tried to insult us and it backfired on them). So I’m not sure you/we really need to make a distinction. Trust your gut. If it makes you feel bad, don’t trust it.
This is a perfect description of my ex. Within the first month of us being together (after a brief honeymoon phase of Future Faking/Fast Forwarding), he would start picking on me for the smallest things. Really, the things he would bring up/criticise were so trivial that there was no way I could predict what he would criticise next, and this made me quite nervous. For example:
– I was a bad story-teller – “there is something about your timing, and you get to the point way too quickly”
– I had a “snobbish” way of speaking
– My facial expressions sometimes made me look insecure
– We had little in common, he said, which made me “ask him the same kind of questions over and over”
– I had a tendency of asking people “insignificant” questions
– It seemed like I wanted to accommodate him, i.e. please him (excessively), and that “took the excitement out of the relationship”
Anyway, this kind of nit-picking made me very, very insecure. At the same time, I knew that he disliked me being insecure, which made for a vicious cycle. Nothing was ever his fault, of course, or his responsibility; I was always the one to blame, and I was often at fault.
The break-up was infuriating – after a couple of weeks of him being cold and remote towards me, I finally initiated a conversation in which he said that he did not see any future for the two of us. “I have said hurtful things to you, and I’ve been ignoring you – that is because I haven’t identified myself with this relationship,” he said. As if “not identifying yourself with a relationship” makes it OK to hurt your partner or behave coldly for two weeks straight.
Needless to say, I am far better off without him. This website, as well as Nat’s e-book (Mr Unavailable & The Fallback Girl), has helped me enormously, and I still read this blog on a regular basis. I’m VERY grateful for the insightful articles on this blog, and they have really contributed to making me a stronger person. Thank you, Natalie 🙂
What a complete bastard. He sounds awful. So glad for you you gave him the chop! X
Thank you 🙂 I am also happy that he’s out of my life. Now, I almost feel a bit sorry for him, too – in fact, HE is the one who’s painfully insecure, not me. Happy, healthy, emotionally balanced and well-adjusted individuals generally do not feel the need to put others down; while I got away from him and his issues, HE’ll still have a lot of work to do.
It’s interesting how these “choppers” seem to deal with their own emotional pain and personal issues by taking them out on others. I once heard the term “predatory self-esteem” – that is, in my opinion, what these people have. Which is too bad – not for us, eventually, but for them.
Thank you! Straight down the line. Such apt and helpful info. These kind of situations are so confusing and sometimes dangerous… pointers like this can (literally) be a lifesaver. Excellent article. ..
Thank you for writing these things because my ex did the same thing, not accompanying me to events and did not get that partners do this and you do things as a couple. The few times he went to anything of mine, he embarrassed me there. Sulking, not participating, acting angry. Teaching me a lesson. I never asked him to go to an event like that again. For 10 years. When I told or wrote him it was unacceptable, he would either cry or turn on the charm, pull me back in. Flowers. Sex. I was so humiliated by his cold attitude followed by wonderful times when all was fine and I wondered how long it would last before the shoe drops.
And he still blames me. I am caring for less and less, but I have so much pain.
I am so glad I’m here. Hearing your stories. You think you are so alone. I didn’t want people to see how he might act. I should have taken him repeatedly to all my friends so that more could see and say something.
He scared my mother. I guess that wasn’t enough.
lol i have had such a laugh reading this posting and everyone’s comments. Just who do these males think they are? My Narcissist/Sociopath ex (only found out by reading up on them that he is one after we finished), told me my neck was starting to get wrinkly, i had a widow’s hump appearing on the back of my neck, i had dry skin on one of my elbows (because i happen to lean on it i add here), but it would take me all day to list all of the things he eventually turned out to be, but to add a few – calculating, manipulative, callous, deceitful, lacking in empathy, full of himself, devious, a cheating scumbag. You get the drift. He loved our sex life but just before he walked away from me he started withholding himself from me. I believe it was his sick way of punishing me for things his small mind made up i had done.
However, thank goodness i am well free of him and my no contact is forever, although i pity the poor females he may have in the future – i hope he rots in hell!
Oh wow! I have just got rid of my Chopper after 5 years. Everything about him was absolutely classic as Natalie has stated here. I had previously dumped this guy about 4 times and let him back in every time with his promises and sweet, sweet behaviour – and everytime it went back to the verbal abuse, lying through his back teeth, playing the victim etc, etc, etc.
The straw that broke this camel’s back was when I was accused of having sex with other men when I was out with my girl friends having lunch one day.
I just sat there and went into a slow burn that turned into a raging fire and that was it – I had to get rid of this idiot, once and for all. So I did.
Message for Jo:
Your guy sounds like a narcissist to me and if he is you are well rid of him believe me, they just love to put you on a pedestal then shoot you down when you least expect it. They are mean, nasty, spiteful, selfish and cruel, i believe they are born that way, or should i say they were ‘invented’ that way.
My ex told me one night someone had said he had a ‘young face’, my reply was ‘yeah right, were they on their way to Specsavers Opticians to get their eyes tested! He was not impressed, but after all of the insults i endured it was karma……
Thanks for your reply! Yes, that thought has crossed my mind, too. However, I think that for my ex, it’s more a matter of being horribly insecure, emotionally immature and in constant need of reassurance. For instance, for as long as we were together, he would tell me about all the other girls who hit on him/fancied him/blushed when he was around/tried to touch him, etc.. These included, among others, the girl working in our local grocery store; a lot of his female colleagues; his friends’ girlfriends… He even thought a friend of mine was flirting with him – while I was sitting next to him! (Oddly enough, though, I did not notice anything particular about my friend’s behaviour; she was joking with him and being friendly, but that was about it. Besides… she is one of my best friends! Obviously, she wouldn’t have flirted with him in front of me!)
If a guy needs to brag about getting attention from *other* girls while he’s with you, that’s saying something… about him and his maladjusted ego.
“My ex told me one night someone had said he had a ‘young face’, my reply was ‘yeah right, were they on their way to Specsavers Opticians to get their eyes tested! He was not impressed, but after all of the insults i endured it was karma” – haha, WAY TO GO! 🙂
The thing is, I didn’t want to insult my ex because I sensed how fragile his ego truly was. He is hypersensitive to criticism – one of the many paradoxes surrounding these choppers, I believe.
However, at the end of the day, I try to have a level of compassion for my ex. Not as an excuse for his behaviour, mind you, but simply because I think that he will have a long way to go on his road to becoming happy with himself – and others.
I’m becoming an old grizzled BR gal. This chopper/abusive post and thread still has me reeling, although the nightmares have subsided. Jennifer, Paula, Madame Butterfly, JoNorwway, and everybody else, yeah…it so isn’t about you. That has been the most difficult thing for me to grasp. Maybe I coulda, shoulda, done something differently. Nope. I’ve started online dating (not recommended by me) perfect strangers and their insecurities, issues, unresolved baggage come to the surface ASAP. Always, always remember: YOU HAVE A CHOICE. These abusive jokemos are not the last chance saloon and we are not that desperate. The flush handle is my best friend. Flush these abusive choppers. My former abusive chopper looks like shit warmed over. Stringy, greasy, strands of gray hair, 50 lbs over-weight, diabetic, on the verge of a heart attack or a stroke. I’m in total shape, almost have a 6 pack of abs, and I let this slovenly dweeb on the verge of death tear me down? Come on ladies. Let’s ditch these total dweebs. I got one hanging on now that I’ve blocked. They own up or they get off. It’s simple. There are NO second chances with a AC/EUM.
This is a fantastic post Nat. I like the name chopper cause it gives a really visual description of what these people do to you.
Thank Truth. I can’t figure out why I stay. This is a man who insists I am easy to replace. We even had a conversation about it. He said yes you are. I said no I’m not. We were going back and forth like 2year olds. I am constantly getting critisisim…how I dress, how I spend the money I work for, how I think, what I say and on and on. Stayed at his house one night and got criticized for the shopping bag I threw a pair of jeans into! I am twisting myself into a pretzel trying to please the unpleasable. Praying for the strength to scrape together what’s left of my self esteem and walk away. I need to get back to when I was confident, optimistic and had the will to live.
Jennifer,
I have had ALL your identical experiences. My ex is CHARMING, charismatic, educated, intuitive, MANIPULATIVE, funny, life of the party, he seems to understand me and anyone he tries (when it makes him look good or he stands to receive something from it). I thought I found the man of my dreams, he literally is the most intoxicating human being I have ever met. My own mother went out of her way to tell me that she very clearly was sure he loved me. He did, he seriously worshipped/worships me, but there is another side that didn’t show in the beginning. In public, he is the man every woman would want to marry, but at home he is different. His mood and level of contentment would determine what I would receive but the chopping definetely is at the core of his being. This man has chopped me about loving my dead husband. He was a friend of my husband and he has also informed me of painful dicretions my husband committed (unbenounced to me) during my marriage when he was alive. He has tortured me for my past, for loving my child, not to mention the endless no win/trick bag situations he put me in. Changing the rules, the rules that NEVER apply to him. My ex chopper has shamed me for every single positive thing I do and have in my life, he has belittled me or makes repeated passive aggressive remarks to shame me for the exact same values that led him to be attracted to me. The key point is that this abuse doesn’t start until you are hooked. This type of person then confuses you with all the psychological manipulation and you are struggling to get back to how it “use to be” and deathly clinging to find your boundaries. Mix this with sleep deprivation and stress and it is TOXIC PAIN. HE TRANSFERRED ALL OF HIS PAIN ONTO ME, and I let him. I cannot even tell you the injury he has caused my esteem…I mean, that I have ALLOWED him to cause. There is no boundary to the things this man has stooped to say or use against me. This man (chopper) came into my life, inventoried every strength and weakness I have and then literally pushed the buttons to order up whatever whim or wish he had for the day. It was whatever HE needed. He continually plays the victim, reinvents realty, diminishes, distorts and globalizes his behavior as trivial or not what I believed it to be. He also became physically violent towards me, threatening to hurt himself and even at one point told me not to come to his funeral and don’t fake that I care for the sake of his parents. My soul is shaken, I have never been so off kilter in my life. I started educating myself over a year ago and I am quite positive this man has Borderline Personality Disorder. He literally has sucked the life out of me in order to supply himself with a very distorted and sick sense of life. The most horrific thing of all is to try to comprehend that this behavior and the reasons behind it are even possible, it’s almost unfathomable! I have also become a walking, talking volume of stored information on diagnosing this type of behavior because once you understand the capacity of the brain to distort things, it’s beyond maddening. Please don’t fear, I recognize that I have to be responsible for me and that focusing on his problems and his behavior is just poor boundaries for myself and me not wanting to focus on myself. I am trying to do this, one day at a time. My ex still contacts me and is able to suck me in at times and just when I think I’m on solid ground, I find a whole I haven’t covered and allow contact. This is by far the most insane thing I have ever lived through in my life. I have aged 5 years in 3, I have spent countless hours trying to fight, argue my point, becoming so nuerotic to dissect all of his distortions and games to prove a point..but what point? Fact is, I wouldn’t go down without a fight, but all along I was only fighting myself and my demeans that he literally extorted to destroy me with. Oh and the nightmares Runnergirl, yes I understand! I began to suffer a great amount of somatic symptoms from the stress. I literally have been in a fog, ironically, some people coin the acronym ‘FOG’, Fear, obligation and guilt. That is EXACTLY what this man did to me, he made me fear, feel obligated and he guilted me RELENTLESSLY! Natalie, thank you for making sense of it all for us. I understood the clinical part, but you helped me to also realize the boundaries, the importance of listening to yourself and those feelings, the understanding when you are starting to compromise your values and the way your body tries to tell you, the need for boundaries in our lives, and most importantly how to evaluate our self esteem and it’s importance in being healthy woman. I have learned so much and I so appreciate that you put it all in such real terms that I can digest. I love your analagies! My closing point is this, the type of person I described is very dangerous and if you ever come across one and love them…when you do get away…remember the gift. Had I never been so abused and deceived, I would have likely never realized how broken I am. God bless you all.
I too have been a pretzel! There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING that you can do to change his diabolical behaviour as HE doesn’t want to change as he thinks he is doing nothing wrong. You could be doing backward flips, double somersaults worthy of an olympic challenge and you will get the same result from him.YOU have to change, there comes a time when you just have to say NO MORE, THATS IT I’M DONE and really mean it. If you dont I predict that this will result in such stress for you that not only does it cause emotional distress but actual physical distress. I have been there,its exrtremely difficult but you have to decide No Contact and focus entirely on rebuilding yourself. Whatever negative throwbacks he gives you it does not matter a blimp cos you know that you are worth more. Who gave King of the Unpleasables the right to dictate to you on how you dress, speak, think, act. He is mean and condescending and needs his ass kicked out the back door.
Mia : I went through the SAME experience. Couldn’t agree more that this type of person is dangerous! The EX he was with, suffered from serious mental issues after being in a relationship with him. (They are still in touch after 10 years even during our relationship) I couldn’t focus for half a year and am still slowly building myself up from the mental damages caused from the relationship!
What’s more dangerous (agree with truth+freedom) is that they don’t see the problem themselves and continue to blame others (potential partners)! Ladies! Don’t let these people govern our boundaries and ways of thinking!
I cannot thank you enough for this – I have sensed and guessed some of the causes for such behaviour, but you put it nicely together and this post made it much clearer to me. I will print this in small print on a piece of paper and put it in my vallet as a reminder, so that whenever I start thinking about him and feel down over our failed relationship, I’ll read this. This might even be the last step, or “the missing link” I need to get over it completely. THANK YOU!
Tell me about it. I was seeing a guy who was so intimidated by my own forwardness (if that’s even a word), security of myself, sexuality (I’m bi) and just who I am in general with my faults and all that he just kept chopping whenever he got the chance. Apparently I’m always shouting or angry bearing in mind this is after he has wound me up or pushed buttons for the sake of drama. I’m too ‘ghetto’ apparently too because I enjoy wearing jogging bottoms (sweatpants) and trainers as I feel comfortable like that. Telling him that the reason why I didn’t go home after a long weekend in Manchester and coming straight to him after my 4 hour train and bus journey is because going home means I won’t be leaving the house as soon as I get comfortable is apparently ‘not nice’. The same night I apparently kissed my teeth at them, no I didn’t. Which resulted in me leaving the room for 2 minutes to think about it before I even respond. Which led to an argument, me leaving and going home and me telling them the next day that they don’t really like me and if that’s the case then I don’t like them either. I don’t need nor want someone who is going to spend all of their time picking on my faults to make me into who they want me to be or who I should be. I mean if you have to change someone then that’s a red flag. It’s not the person for you.
Just like the friend in the post… I still do churn the words over in my head. And that’s because I allowed them to define who I am in order to make themselves feel and look better to their ego or sense of self. I’d rather be around men or women who don’t wish to chop me down at every chance.
I realized after reading all this that im actually a chopper, half-way thru i got all teary-eyed and was in shock because yes i have been with a chopper and everything you mentioned i have been thru with an ex. Its time to stop that cycle and stop being the chopper because at the end of the day it doesnt make me feel any better about myself and its sometimes hard to see the other person try so hard to please me only to get chopped. 🙂 Thank You!
Yep. I spent the better part of the last month blaming myself for why the “love of my life” would dump me on the day my dad was getting biopsy results, or, when I was earlier trying to reconcile, exploded and threw paper in my face while dumping me again. Or, in an attempt to talk, told me that I was a “bad bad person” and “ruining my best friend’s life.” Umm…yeah.
Even the most insecure of us, if we have a brain cell or three, steps back eventually and says to one or two of the accusations, “Some of this is just pure and utter malarky; are you kidding me?!”
I was with a man who I loved immensely — and purely — but who I let erode my boundaries. He wouldn’t “let” me have a night off to myself to be alone. My jokes in public were constantly deemed “inappropriate” and worthy of a fight. Everthing I did was under scruitiny and the more I tried to work with him, the more he opted to put me down and make it all about my faults.
I wish him no ill will. I’m sure, in his head, he thinks it’s all justified — all of it. But, when you step back a bit and realize that you fell head over heels for a chopper/assclown, it makes you really question yourself for a bit. Not for all those things they put you down for, most of which were completely untrue — but rather for how you allowed yourself to lose sight of yourself so much that you threw yourself out the window temporarily in the name of love.
No assclown/chopper — or hell, even a wonderful man — is worth allowing someone to let you lose yourself.
Thanks for this site! It’s been an enormous help as I move on.
I am currently in a relationship with someonr who I feel is a chopper. I have never been with someone who could talk to me in such a way. I have always had the mentality that someone with love me for me. Still trying to figure out if that’s true or not. I find my relatioship is ending and im the one still trying to hold on. I am currently staying with her in a different state. I sacrificed all to be with her and I don’t know what to do. I am not one to give up on things especially cause this is an engagement and the mind set of just turning around and leaving is something I feel most people do nowadays. Its why divorse is so high.
I obviously and looking for answers or I wouldnt have come on here reading all of your great testimonies…im lost and hurt and just trying to find whats right
Ryan, good luck to you. It’s hard to diagnose without all the details. If you’re both committed to making it work, perhaps couple’s therapy could help? Even though I am 99% sure my BF is a classic case of assclown/chopper, I’m going to give therapy with him a go. May or may not work but this site has made me realize that, regardless of how it turns out, I’m going to keep my dignity and my boundaries. Wish you all the best!
Baggage Reclaim saved my life. I broke up with an EX last year, and it was through these precious articles that I was able to take a step back and realize that the guy I was with is an ass clown + a Chopper.
I couldn’t agree more with this article. It was truly energy draining during the relationship; I was being criticized everyday, he was stopping me from saying what I’m passionate about (telling me I’m a boring person in my face), being told I was being too “sensitive” and “emotional” while he went to strip clubs and claimed that only his friends went in. He showed zero respect of my boundaries. The Ex was a true chopper to its essence. I was going through a major breakthrough last year, having work exhibits in shows; what happened was that he showed no interest, no support, mentioned a breakup!?
Reading this article really helped me to identify further what a problematic person the Ex is. I allowed a guy to manipulate my thinking process, degrade my values and loose complete respect of myself. It is through Baggage Reclaim that I was able to move on, build myself up and smile.
Sincere Thank you for your wise words NML.
Yes Natalie!!
My thoughts finally articulated! I am celibate till marriage and I live with my parents (early 20’s).
He went from being charming to chewing me out about EVERYTHING from the way I spoke to dismissing every opinion I had.
When a girl who is unsure of her self worth and is inexperienced gets involved with a Chopper who is a seasoned player it screams disaster.
I genuinely sincerely cared about him but when I refused to have sex with him and no amount charm could change my mind more axes came than Edward Scissorhands lol.
Other signs i’ve noticed:
have the cheek to want to be physically affectionate when they’ve been emotionally cold.
when you refuse they ask: oh so you’re scorning me, you think you’re better than me?
controlling attitude
don’t allow you to have opinions. Turn every legitimate complaint you have about them against you
gaslighting you