If you’ve ever thought something like “It started out so great, why can’t they go back to being that guy/girl?” or been like a property developer imagining what someone could become with your ‘love’ and your fixing/healing/helping ways, or even wondered how you managed to stay long past the relationship’s sell-by-date, it’s because you’ve been caught up in ‘potential’.
In relationships, potential is consistently having or showing (via actions) the capacity to become or develop into something more serious – commitment and a shared future.
You determine potential by gauging both of your actions to work out what’s currently happening between you both and where that could potentially lead. And therein lies the problem if you’ve ever found yourself in an unavailable relationship where you’ve been denying, rationalising, and minimising with a fur coat of denial and rose tinted glasses that shuts out warning signs that your relationship is missing some key ingredients or has some ‘areas of concern’.
Betting On Potential is the relationship version of gambling in relationships and unfortunately you’re an uneducated and unskilled gambler because you’re like the newbie that shows up at the casino and figures “It’s a casino so I’ll win big eventually” with no regard for the mental and observation skills required or that some games and tables are better than others. It’s also safe to say that ‘the house’ always wins – you’re in there on their terms.
You pick someone and either take behaviour that’s been exhibited that subsequently disappears/becomes sporadic, or you literally treat them like a blank canvas, put your vision of the relationship you want as the end goal, and paint in the person you think they could become. With little or no regard for lack of capacity shown that’s repeatedly demonstrated throughout the relationship, you don’t use landmarks such as progression, commitment, intimacy, balance and consistency to evaluate whether your ‘bet’ is misplaced. As a result, you don’t know when to fold.
‘Symptoms’
Quickly fantasising that they’re The One soon after meeting.
Saying/thinking stuff like “I wish they’d go back to being the way they used to be.” Or “Why can’t they be like the old [insert name]?”
Believe that love is about having the power to change someone and have them make you the exception to the rule.
Choosing partners for odd reasons that they rarely live up to or make a difference to the relationship.
Believing that you ‘have so much in common’.
Hearing but not listening and ignoring vital information.
Loving and trusting blindly while refusing to trust your gut or any judgements you make.
Hooked on the fairy tale ending.
Trapped in your feelings and fantasy.
Not communicating; you just charge on ahead with your ideas.
Persistently returning to the scene of the crime to see if this time you can realise your ‘investment’.
Stuck in a directionless relationship that won’t ‘conclude’.
Any potential you forecast should be based on the promise of actual actions that have already consistently occurred, not your imagination. Individual potential is untied to you so you can’t make them have a capacity that they don’t possess anyway. No matter the intensity of your feelings or your hopes for them to change, you can’t decide that you have ‘capacity’ for you both until they’re ‘ready’. When what you want is reliant on them becoming/doing X,Y,Z, it demonstrates that they’re not currently showing or having capacity and that you’re taking an even greater gamble.
I can’t emphasise this enough – you can’t do all the loving, giving, doing, respecting, caring, trusting for the both of you. Relationships are 100:100.
When you bet on potential, you think that they don’t have the capacity now but they will have the capacity later.
Dangerously optimistic and speculative, in recognising the ‘synergy’ between you, you reason that if you see and realise potential in them, you’ll realise potential in yourself. The potential you envision is based on your feelings and unhealthy beliefs about relationships centred on you having the power to change them and you miss some major signs that they’re not participating in your grand plan.
When the gap between reality and your ‘forecasted projections’ becomes too wide to ignore, you attempt to rectify this and are met with obstacles, conflict, and some rather unpleasant ‘surprises’ where suddenly the equivalent of “I can’t be or do what you want” starts ringing loud and clear. If you struggle with the amount of time that’s lapsed and/or admitting that you’ve made a mistake, you’ll end up getting in even deeper.
One reader commented that in one year, she only had 28 days of phone contact and that even though she recognised the danger, despite being No Contact she was looking for validation from him. 28 out of 365 is 8% – this just doesn’t even begin to cut it!
Spending another, for example, 3 months trying to get validation and him let’s say contacting her on another 7 days would still leave her at 8%. While it’s not all about the digits, if you’re busting a gut trying to get someone to be something that they’re not for most of the time, it’s like you’re trying to stretch things out.
Some people don’t do steady and only roll out the goods for short-term ‘buzzes’ or to reel you in – little do you realise that you have them on a limited offer. Fact is, it’s not normal to be ‘switchy’.
Don’t be the type that doesn’t believe the potential doesn’t exist until there’s absolutely no chance because they’ve either treated you so badly that even you recognise that it’d be sheer madness, or they’ve moved on and aren’t lining you up as a back up/cheating option. This makes your ‘limit’ for ‘folding’ dangerously high – learn to recognise healthy relationships and the importance of action.
When you’re in reality and being authentic, nobody can continue to showboat around you and claim they’re being and doing more than they are. You also won’t be prepared to be on a crumb relationship diet with your tummy rumbling.
Potential is equal to action. The more consistent, positive action you have, the more potential that exists.
If the action regresses, comes in fits and starts, comes to a halt or is mismatched with what comes out of their mouth, their capacity is limited, not least because you can never truly feel safe in trusting them to remain as they are.
If how things started out has disappeared or become sporadic, this is at the very least a code amber that something is wrong – stop, look, listen, assess, address the situation and/or opt out instead of squeezing your eyes shut and focusing on potential. Adjust potential to be in line with what’s happening.
It’s better to call a spade a spade instead of coming up with a spade by another name and putting them on a pedestal and adding qualities, characteristics, values, and a future that they’re not in possession of or participating in. It’s like buying and betting on a three-legged horse and wondering why it doesn’t run like a champion thoroughbred! You don’t need to make up a person and you don’t need to bet on someone else to realise your best you.
Your thoughts?
Check out my ebooks the No Contact Rule and Mr Unavailable & The Fallback Girl and more in my bookshop.
Add to favorites
Love the gambling reference, so many relationships are indeed a gamble as to whether they will have the potential to be long term. However as you pointed out, there is a healthy gamble and a non-healthy gamble, like when you are betting on something that just has long shot odds, based on facts you choose to ignore that should tell you that you are going to loose… that’s a helluva gambling addiction. lol
My ex and I still do have a lot in common – however the most important common interests – we do not share. So what if we like all the same music, movies and books, food and animals and books, and are both computer geeks and sci-fi nuts and both grew up with a boxer dog and want one in the future… none of that shit builds a healthy relationship. Commitment to the desire of common future goals – together – like wanting marriage, kids, house, and a career, family ties and building a foundation for a long term future together based on equal respect for one another, that is the shit that counts.
Oh my I wrote books twice…
You know what song was in my head all day today because of this post… “The Gambler” by Kenny Rogers.
You got to know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em
Know when to walk away and know when to run
Every gambler knows that the secret to survivin’
Is knowin’ what to throw away and knowing what to keep
spot on barbara xx
My friends and I used to joke about how much I loved guys with “potential”. I am an artist and Potential is a very sexy quality in a mate. I have just gone 30 days of NC (thanks to my NC emails!!) and I know now that I will never EVER do what I did ever again. I betted on potential for 6 years; all of my 30s wasted on an AC who strung me along and me to hopeful to admit to myself that it was never going to work.
NC has made me a stronger person – mind and spirit. I can see that “potential” coming from a mile away now and I refuse to fall for anyone with all words and no action. Thank you Natalie!!!!!
Ooooh I’ve been guilty of this! And what, you ask, was I basing a bunch of dumbass bets on? Brace yourselves, because it’s epic. I was basing all of this on how I thought he treated an ex of his many years ago. How did I come by this info? Myspace stalking when I was NC with him, like, five years ago after we “dated” for the first time and I dumped him because he began to suck royally after a brief stint of fast forwarding/future faking. Basically, I have spent the ensuing years trying to get an assclown to treat me how I assume he treated this girl. I don’t even think it lasted that long between them. I mean…OY. I assumed that his crappy treatment of me was therefor the exception to his rule, i.e., every girl he was with OTHER than me got Price Charming, while I got the goddamn frog. Of course, every time he popped up he was full of sweet words (bullshit sweetened with Splenda. Trust.) and I thought…why can’t he stick around and be THAT guy?!
hey Natasha don’t feel bad, at least you tried to independently confirm… me, I just believed his own words about what a loving, loyal, dedicated, faithful, caring etc. spouse he had been.
Meanwhile his beloved ex was making damn sure that at any given time she didn’t get closer than a couple thousand miles to this knight in shining armor… and every time I tried to talk about my feelings, he would instantly tense up and turn it against me, he got defensive, argumentative, intellectualizing the crap out of the situation instead of just hearing me out and having a heart.
My consolation in all this is that he might have rejected me, but there is no way this man could conduct himself properly in an intimate relationship even if he tried….
Anyway back to facebook, Nat has warned us about what a showcase it is. Facebook is for keeping up appearances, is what it is. I’m sure your ex wanted everyone out there to see what a catch he is!
“Facebook is for keeping up appearances, is what it is. I’m sure your ex wanted everyone out there to see what a catch he is!”
why oh why are these Narc AC type’s always the ones who put themselves out there with a huge smug grinning face on their profile pics/avatars ??? Should be a warning, right ? LMAO.
Ladies, thank you for making me feel like less of a damn fool haha! Once I got real with myself about what it was (I mean, MySpace posts from five years ago – reeeeeeeallly?) that made me feel like I had to validate myself on this loser, I cringed…and then I laughed for approximately 10 minutes straight. I agree about the AC/Narc type on Fbook. My Loser liked to put up posts literally saying what a great person he was – talk about those who doth protest too much. In fact, the day after we rekindled things he posted, “It’s all about the man in the mirror.” (I don’t know why he had to drag MJ into things, like he didn’t have enough problems.) Maybe he thought he was doing a great service to me and humanity as a whole by gracing me with a million text messages, a few drunken phone calls, a boatload of empty promises, dinner and, eventually, his wang? I have no idea and I am also 90% sure that Nobel is not handing out prizes for such things.
Cavewoman, I agree that yours is in no way capable of being a real partner to anyone, as it requires one to extract one’s head from one’s ass and think about someone else – clearly he is not calable of such a feat.
Oh, but now that you mention FB! My ex is an ace on that as well! Basically, 80-90% of the pictures are of himself alone, in all the possible settings, positions, and outfits. And now he has a picture of him at the seaside (yeah, almost naked, that is 😛 ), and I must admit he’s gorgeous! But that doesn’t stop him from being an a*hole! Attraction is still there, it’s something purely physical, but still I’m not gonna give in! Of course, there are many girls who obsessively “like” and “comment” his stuff, and they change regularly (harem alert), like the trends of the seasons. But all this stuff started to become more visible with time.
Sometimes he posts stuff that makes him look like some hopeless romantic, famous quotations on love, etc. When I was upset with him, he moved to some “depressed” links and nostalgic love songs – as if saying that he’s sorry, and alone, and miserable. 😛 But what impressed me when we first met were his family and childhood pictures, together with some really sentimental comments. Just like me, he’s an only child and grandchild, and I assume he loves his family dearly, just like I do. Now, I can’t say it’s not true, because I never met his family.
So, in this particular context, it’s very easy to see the apparent potential based on this “window” that FB is. It’s difficult to figure out what’s authentic and what’s not.
“Basically, 80-90% of the pictures are of himself alone, in all the possible settings, positions, and outfits.”
I shouldn’t have read that while I’m getting ready to go out – now my eye make-up is going suck because I’m going to keep cracking up with an eyeliner pencil in my hand 🙂 Some of these guys are very adept at painting themselves as the wounded party (ohmygod, the depressed love quotes), when in fact it’s THEM that’s keeping the relationship from progressing! It’s so true about not knowing what’s authentic and what’s not – if you’re not part of the relationship, how the heck do you know?! This is why my MySpace Assumption Game was just a boatload of foolishness haha!
Sandra, this is one of those times when I have to send my warning message “Sandra, you’re in danger girl”. If you can read that much into some happy childhood photos and him being an only child, I fear for you. Those two pieces of information tell you nothing specifically about him or your relationship – you are projecting 1) you and 2) your assumptions. You’re not the same person. He is a separate, individual entity.
Sandra, Natalie sent me the “you’re in danger girl” message and I ended up in a world of danger a few days later. All of the havoc and danger came from within as Natalie said. When Nat says you are in danger, you are in danger…big time!
Natalie, I’ve said it before, you are a saint. I cannot believe you don’t simply write us off as total idiots. I’m a teacher and learning from you as a teacher everyday. I’m learning patience with you, patience for folks who are being authentic and really trying. Oh, and learning to double flush cheating a-holes who love to blow smoke. Sandra, where there is smoke there is fire. Blow the taco stand.
Actually, you know what it was, Nat? So, I had seen this thing right after we became friends: he had a status that said. “10 years ago, just like today – always in my heart and proud to have your name. I love you, Grandpa!” 10 years since his grandad had passed away. Now, I must admit this is my “sensitive point”, as I have lost many of my family members, my dad included, and even today I still have my “grieving moments”. So, it wasn’t just the photos, but I rarely saw such stuff coming from a guy.
Now, I’m not justifying him or his behaviour in relationships, especially now that it’s been more than a year. Actually, now I would say that the only people he really cares about are his family.
@runnergirl: Natalie doesn’t write us off as idiots, because she’s been through a lot herself, and she knows how it feels like. This is why she’s sharing her experience with us. 😉 As far as I’m concerned, this guy is the first (and hopefully last) person of this kind that I’m dealing with. I guess this is why I’m so confused, and so willing to understand things.
@Both: I’m in danger? Well, next week I’m going on holiday, of course, without him and faaaaar away from him, and staying for a month, so I expect a healthy break! 🙂
My gosh. I am SO totally guilty as charged of everything in that article! Please, ladies, take heed – it is right on the money. Maybe it is part of being female, that we are wired to give SO much benefit of the doubt, to see all they COULD be once they see how wonderful the connection is and magically transform, that LOVE will fix everything that is wrong, will make up for everything that is lacking, and that my IMAGINATION is somehow accurate.
The only other thing I have to say is these must be compiled into a book one day. I can already envision some fun titles.
LOL I know, that looong list in italics? I did all that, big time. ALL of it. I’m humbled, Natalie!
“Persistently returning to the scene of the crime”…. Love it, says so much
Oh my gosh – this is SO me, this is my relationship for the past 3 years. It is a hard pattern to break.
Oh gee, I used to do almost ALL of those things!
Betting on potential NEVER worked.
Now I only bet as far as the actions I see in front of me. Where the relationship actually IS if someone else who had my best interests at heart were to look at it objectively right then. That usually DOES work 🙂
You know it already Nat, but you should have my picture on this post. I read every sentence expecting to see my name in the print cos it so belongs there. Cringe is me.
It’s so hard NOT to do this! I think we girls have been conditioned from our first fairly tales that we can turn frogs into princes. It goes on with endless romance novels/movies about how the guy who seems like such a jerk at first turns out to be Mr. Perfect. And, as another poster above mentioned, we’re trained to be compassionate and forgiving, so I think we often end up feeling like the bad guy if we don’t give him just one more (and more and more) chance.
Christina, I couldn’t agree more!
Romance novels in particular show a women that if a guy treats her like crap (over and over for 300 pages) it’s because he has issues and it’s HER love that opens his eyes… notice that the heroine never has issues- the hero does (meaning: don’t have any needs, don’t be difficult, be accommodating until he completely sucks your soul). So we learn that all it takes is our focus, dedication and unconditional love to “make him realize” how wonderful we are… cue sunset, roll credits…
If you look at the “heroes” in all these stories, they are all Assclowns/ EUM’s/ Narcs…
As a result, you don’t know when to fold.
‘Symptoms’
Believe that love is about having the power to change someone and have them make you the exception to the rule.
Hearing but not listening and ignoring vital information.
Persistently returning to the scene of the crime to see if this time you can realise your ‘investment’.
Stuck in a directionless relationship that won’t ‘conclude’.
I have rarely ended a relationship always stuck it out to the end when they have ended it.
I like how the symptons of not knowing when to fold are set out makes it clear where I have gone wrong by staying around.
One ex of mine had a terrible childhood full of all kinds of abuse, I truly thought if I loved him the right way I could ‘fix’ him and make it all better. For my efforts I suffered an abusive relationship. I have since learnt that his problems were his to fix and get help for and no matter what he had suffered it did not give him the right to treat me badly.
I did not listen to him in the beginning when he said straight out
“I don’t see myself with you long term I don’t see us married”
That statement also kept me hanging around instead of seeing it as the truth I saw it as a challenge. Again it kept me hanging in way tooooo long.
It was also directionless and I returned a few times till I finally with a lot of help was able to end it. It has taken a long time to admit that this realtionship was abusive.
The next realtionship had some of the same hallmarks. I heard a lot of vital information but chose to be in denial about it, again I seem to have chosen a man who told me he didn’t see anything long term with me and again I took on the challenge though I denied I was doing that. I told myself I was just here for fun, to have someone to hang out with, of course he took full advantage of this.
I think I thought if I hung around long enough he would make the exception only I wasn’t deluded that I thought my love would do it.
I returned again and again to see if I could get a return for my investment.
It has taken this web site having a drip feed effect on me to wake up to the fact that there will be no return on this investment, and I should have folded long ago actually I should have never have been involoved with him. Yet I couldn’t let it go because his treatment of me seemed so much better than the last guy and it was what…
I hear ya Tulipa.. my ex had a very difficult and emotionally damaging childhood as well. And I allowed that to excuse his demeaning behavior toward me. He was such the charmer to everyone else, I thought if I gave enough of myself he would see that I should be treated as well as he treats people he barely knows. Won’t be making that mistake again! Childhood trauma that you never dealt with? Next! I don’t have to deal with your issues unless you’re one of my future counseling clients paying me!
I imagine it is ike to take crack. I got so high sometimes, without the aid of drugs. Made denial easier too. Unfortunately it is lingering though almost a year has passed, but I am not in denial at least I don’t think so I know one phone call and one text unprompted by me does not equal a friendship in spite of what he is saying to me.
The biggest lesson I can learn from all this thought is to listen in the beginning if they don’t see a long term relationship with me this is not a challenge to change their minds it is a huge, great big RED FLAG saying get out NOW !!!!!!!!!! Do not play the game you will lose big time.
I hear you Tulipa on it being addicting. Sometimes I wish I was/had been addicted to a real substance instead of these relationships. At least that way it would seem to be easier to manage.
I always assumed the potential for the relationship to improve lay with me. When he first started with the put downs, and disrespectful behaviour, I thought: he wouldn’t treat a woman who he respects like that, so I must not be showing him I deserve respect. I figured it was my learning curve, to learn to be smarter, more worldly, less needy, and more popular so that I would earn his respect.
I thought him dating me was HIM betting on MY potential. I didn’t think I was who I wanted to be or needed to be and so I hoped desperately that he was seeing my potential and was cutting me some slack. Every time he disrespected me it felt like he had simply become impatient with my slowness. I was like, I know, I know, I’m clueless/sensitive/naive.
I’d say I put up with a lot because I wanted someone to believe in me, and so I figured I should believe in the capacity of someone else to improve.
It can be hard to bet on yourself: if your life hasn’t had a lot going on, or you keep making bad decisions, or keep being in pain, it’s easier to bet on someone else’s potential than on your own. Sometimes I think we make these poor investments in guys because we have already decided that WE ourselves are a poor investment. But really, if we’re going to bet on anyone’s potential, it has to be our own.
Why are we assuming the odds of these guys improving is so much better than the odds of our own?
Given my history, my developing a capacity to commit and be happy is a long shot. But if that’s the way my cards are dealt, I’d better focus on playing MY cards, and improving my own odds and skills, not teaming up with someone else just as weak and hoping we both run into some random streak of luck where both of us suddenly come up all aces.
Magnolia,
yes, you hit a nerve there with me – I suppose I thought the Mr EUM must see potential in ME, otherwise why would he still be there and keep coming back…. that was my (flawed) reasoning.
I like the way Nat explains that we need to know when to fold – if you don’t know what your folding point is, you’ll still be there when it’s nothing short of misery. I never was in relationships with my ‘head’ – that was my problem… I was all “feeling”; I just did what my emotions dictated even when my head was screaming at me to sit up and take note of the information… I saw ALL the information with this EUM – I saw it… I just liked him and wanted it to work out, so I kept flogging that dead donkey (it was fruitless and painful). It’s painful now to realise that if I had been BR wise when I met him I would have folded after our first kiss on the night we first got talking to eachother, when he tried to get his hand into my knickers… I didn’t let him. LOl. He never even asked me out after that… we got together again (by default really, at a social event we were both at) about two months later and by then I was craaaazyyy about him. No, just crazy, so I was hoping for a crumb, and I got it. Afet that red flags were flying everywhere… but I placed my bet, on the potential.
Sad things for me is I can’t help feeling all of this has come too late… I turned fifty this year (Arrgghh! better than the alternative though Lol.) I am worn out with men now… I have never been ‘happy’ with one since I my first boyfriend when I was 16 – 22 yrs. I don’t have the energy for them anymore. I am all worn out with it all. I have a feeling I am not and can never be what a man wants (mainly young and hot with big boobs!). I feel sad about it but I’ve no fight left and no desire to go back to the cattle market and compete with women 20+ years younger in that market. I do not want to humiliate myself any more, thanks! Am I wrong?
“I don’t have the energy for them anymore. I am all worn out with it all. I have a feeling I am not and can never be what a man wants (mainly young and hot with big boobs!). I feel sad about it but I’ve no fight left and no desire to go back to the cattle market and compete with women 20+ years younger in that market. I do not want to humiliate myself any more, thanks! Am I wrong?”
Fearless, ohmygod, I was just saying something VERY similar to my mother last night! Ironically enough, I’m 29 and had my boobs (and nose!) done when I was 25. My problem is that I live in a big city and when I’m out and about and see guys that I find attractive (and I’m sure many of them are fundamentally decent people), I think “Meh, he’ll have too many options and he’ll wind up dropping me within a month when something better comes along. Boy will I feel stupid then!” My friends tell me I’m being negative (and not everyone is a player), and I know I am, but I can’t help it – I’m not quite there yet. I don’t have any good answers on this, but I want to let you know that you’re not at all alone in feeling like it’s pointless sometimes! I think we both know that we’re seeing it wrong, but it’s a tough thing to let go of when you haven’t had the greatest experiences. *Hugs*
Hey ladies,
Just the right moment to hear that your optimism is a little low these days. Mine is too. Could it be weather? The moon in Gemini or something? Let’s buoy each other up … it’s in these times when we feel we can’t go on that we need each other.
I’ll be 38 soon, with a massive fibroid condition that lets me know that my reproductive days are nearly done. I spent an hour this morning trying to tell myself – well, I’m not sure what to tell myself: that I will meet someone kind and stable who I deeply like and who likes me and is faithful and wants me physically, or to try to train myself not to think about it.
Some days I don’t know if “being happy without a man” means not experiencing pangs of companionlessness or trying to be open to wanting a companion without letting it crush me. Wanting a family: I try not to dwell there.
I was thinking all day yesterday about “betting on potential” and don’t know what to do when my mind turns to thoughts of: “I’ve never been able to make a good relationship happen. If we go by observation and previous experience, I shouldn’t expect anything different.” What a hellish hamsterwheel.
Maybe someone can point me to the post, if Natalie has already dealt with this: what do you do when in the context of your life, finding a loving relationship will be like winning the lottery? How do I scale down the intensity of joy and disbelief that will accompany finding a good partner? I swear, I have never – in my life – been touched by someone who genuinely respected me. I think if that happens, I might cry for a month straight.
Maybe this intensity is part of the problem? How do you start believing in something that has never been true for you? How is that different from betting on potential?
Mag,
“How do you start believing in something that has never been true for you?”
That’s it! That’s what I have felt for years… I have a fabulous 21yr old daughter who is the true love of my life, but have never been married, never lived with a man, never depended on one; dealt with my own life and brought up my daughter with no help or input from her absent father. To me ‘getting married’ has same odds as winning the lottery! I have used that very phrase – that’s how much of a long-shot I have thought it seemed. All my friends have won that lottery at least one time! I don’t know how to start believing that there is potential out there nor how to muster the interest anymore to care if there is or not. Sometimes I just think – time to know when you’re beat, Fearless, just forget it now and you’ll never be disappointed, rejected or let down or shafted, ever again. Lol! You know, I guess that’s what it is – I don’t want to now give any other man a chance to reject me. I cannot take any more failures and rejections from a man.
Magnolia, it’s so wonderful that we’re all here to buoy eachother up when we’re flagging (and we do a great job of it in, my humble opinion!) 🙂 Even though I have great friends/family, they don’t really get it like the ladies on this blog and I can’t thank all of you enough for being there. I so get where you are coming from on the kids thing – I came down with an autoimmune disorder last year that can make having kids difficult, so it’s something that I put out of my mind a lot as well.
I feel the same way in that finding someone would be like winning the lottery and it’s tough to see a lot of my friends are getting married, because I feel like they’ve all been blessed beyond belief while I’ve been left with a losing ticket (sorry if that sounds self-pitying, I’m having a moment today too haha!). I really like Fearless’ comment on betting on our own potential and I think that’s the best way to think of it – as tough as it is sometimes.
Natalie has a post that has helped me a lot on days like this (love your Moon in Gemini mention, my sister is an astrology buff and it always cracks me up when she’s like, “Of course you are having a bad day! Mercury is RETROGRADE. Then I have to Google what the hell that means.) Here is the post, I hope it helps you as much as it’s helped me along the way! *Hugs*
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/if-we-give-up-on-love-we-give-up-on-ourselves/
Thanks Natasha – I appreciate very much. You are 29, gorgeous and smart and the world is your oyster. If I knew then what I know now, I would just get on with my own wonderful life and not bother too much about men; we put way too much importance on them like they are a matter of life and death; they are not doing the same! An old saying: men love to live; women live to love. Just live the best life you can, for *you*, that’s what I say! My dad who died four years ago (who was sometime sober and sometimes wise!!) used to say to us: go, grab life by the scruff of the neck and shake it! I let him down. (He let me down too, too often, but he didn’t do it deliberately and I forgive him). Sorry am blabbing off topic, but we women need to see the potential *in our own lives* Bet on that potential!
Hey ladies,
I don’t know if I can say anything to help here because you all seem so far ahead of me in your growth, development, and wisdom, OMG do you all have such amazing brilliance.
“How do you start believing in something that has never been true for you?” Nicely put Magnolia. We can believe in something that has never been true for us because that is what faith is all about. You all know this, right? When I read your comments, I am in awe of how insightful, brilliant, spiritual, and sensitive you all are. That is what is important. Not some EUM/AC’s attention and/or validation, right? And, we can place our faith, albeit with no evidence, in our own potential instead of the potential of another, right? Magnolia, I’m sure you’ve read Natalie’s 100 self-esteem building tips. I’ve read them and find that if I try to implement them, I feel a little better about myself, although I still struggling daily and hourly.
Fearless, I’m 52 without without big boobs either and I think you are wrong, I mean that in the nicest way! That made me chuckle. I also have a 21 year old awesome daughter who I’ve raised and supported myself despite being married 3 times. Being married isn’t winning the lottery, trust me. I did learn from each marriage/divorce and I’m to the point where I’m grateful for the knowledge and experience.
Perhaps winning the lottery is winning our self-respect and self-esteem? I am betting on the potential of you all and myself. As Natalie said: A big squeezy hug to all of you and me too. Let’s keep the faith, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.
Love it Fearless! I couldn’t agree more on betting on our own potential 🙂 Thank you also for reminding me that I’m not down for the count – my mother (who I love dearly but sometimes is a little…blunt and has her own opionions) keeps telling me to say I’m 29 after my 30th birthday comes in a few months. She is not pleased when I say “I’m almost 30”, because she says I’m aging myself. Oy. I know she means well, but sometimes a little reminder that I’m not ancient is nice haha! I love your father’s saying (A LOT) and I admire you big time for loving him despite his faults. I’d also like to add that sometimes you meet someone long after you think you’re done – my Nana thought she’d never get married again after a crappy husband/divorce in her 30’s and she met someone wonderful and married him…on her 68th birthday! *Hugs*
“Perhaps winning the lottery is winning our self-respect and self-esteem?” Love it Runner! I have always admired the honesty, kindness and perspective in your comments – you have a ton of amazing brilliance of your own 🙂 *Hugs*
Thanks for your comment runner. You are wise too! (me… not so sure!… am good at telling other people what’s best for them to do! LOL!).
One thing I’m certain of now is that neither I nor my Mr EU recognised *my* potential. I thought he had potential and failed to see I had potential of my own!
What is it about us that makes us think he is the big money prize and we are some sad consolation prize for him. We have it the wrong way round. I think these men actually know that – they are more aware than we are of what’s really going on, I suspect. I think they know we are under-valueing and under-selling ourselves but they are not going to point that out to us in case we actually ‘get it’. My friend would say to me that she thinks half the reason ‘these guys’ won’t commit is becaue they know if they did you’d discover they actually weren’t worth having. I agree that the only potential we should recognise and bet on is our own. And whatever that may bring, at least it won’t bring on any more EUMs/MMs/ACs! So that’s gotta be a bonus! So, let’s start by grabbing our life back out of the hole we dropped it in.
Runner, Fearless, and Natasha – and all –
Thanks for the thoughts. It really helps to have friends in my computer!! All of you, really, thanks.
For me the lottery is love, family and intimacy with someone I can count on, and who I feel knows and loves me – not just getting married, by any means. I wouldn’t even need the ring or official paper; I’d know if I had it.
I just wrote a long rant about what really goes through my mind when I ask myself what I think my potential is. I’ll spare you – whining about it won’t change anything. Natalie keeps saying if you keep doing the same things and get limited results it’s time to change what you’re doing. Maybe this week’s getting sad about guys is just a distraction from the overwhelming feeling that I must change my whole life.
Am away and on dodgy computer, but just read nat’s last two posts – awesome (and yes I was clouded by that list of beliefs you wrote, nat…cringe.) and then this string of comments. I am not entirely sure what to say and we could intellectualize the crap out of it all, but, I can only say from my own experience that it was only when I had come to a gentle sense that it would be ok to be on my own (not hiding away or bitter, which is why I say gentle – ie still went out and took fun risks, like saying yes to that party or music gig where I would not know anyone), and really focused on realigning my professional life with my personal values (making some big changes, but in small steps – can be overwhelming and impractical to make complete overhaul the requirement) and practiced being easier on myself and saying nice things to myself, that I also got in a position where new man would have been recognized and treasured. I have accepted that I will always have to monitor my childhood anxieties (desire to figuratively set fire to things) but massive difference now I feel good about myself, what I have to offer myself anyway etc. You are wonderful and witty people, so be lighter with yourselves.
Magnolia said: “It can be hard to bet on yourself: if your life hasn’t had a lot going on, or you keep making bad decisions, or keep being in pain, it’s easier to bet on someone else’s potential than on your own.” That’s exactly true for me and my life. Not alot going on, keep making bad decisions, or keep being in pain, has lead me to look to someone else to make my life for me. Being afraid to do take risks on myself and doing what is so hard for me scares me so much because I don’t think I have it in me to go to school to get the education I need so that I can have a career wherein I have the opportunity to support myself financially, not having a family that I am close to enough that I feel comfortable and supported, and not having established close friendships where i feel connected and a part of something, all has lead me to turn to men to provide what I haven’t provided for myself. I look to them to resuce me. It’s always been my way. It’s about time I did something about that. “Sometimes I think we make these poor investments in guys because we have already decided that WE ourselves are a poor investment. But really, if we’re going to bet on anyone’s potential, it has to be our own. ” It’s so true, thanks for pointing it out Magnolia, yes, i’ve got to bet on my own potential, I just wish I could believe that I have some.
Reading this post made me think that women aren’t the only ones who bet on potential. When I first met my ex I was a very busy person who probably seemed pretty aloof and very, very put together. I didn’t ask for much, and more than likely appeared like I didn’t need very much. That’s why he liked me in the beginning and saw a future between us-it was the ideal situation for him. But I of course have needs and wants, I’m going to start making time for someone I care about and expect the same in return, and I’m going to have bad days and some insecurities. From his perspective, I probably looked like a fake. And I kind of was. I’m not stoic, and I do have boundaries and expectations. Pretending to be otherwise only sets up disappointment on both ends and a lot of wasted time. Not to disregard his issues or take on too much responsibility, I’ll never know what could have actually happened had I been more open in the beginning and willing to voice my own expectations and boundaries before it was too late. The only potential you can successfully bet on is your own, and that should be a pretty sure thing. I’m happy that I’ve finally begun to realize mine. 🙂
I know you’ve heard this thousands of times…and oh I so wish I understood this and had this information a LONG time ago. I spent 4+ years with the AC, begging him to please go back to being his REAL self, the guy I met in the beginning. I was convinced *that* was who he *really* was and if he would just stop being a jerk he could be his REAL self again. Yowza.
Similar with the EUM after that….he was kind, devoted, well-respected in the community…only, when I was most vulnerable, he would totally flip out on me. I was the “crazy” one so I took all the responsibility and all the blame. I kept thinking that if I could just….do and say the right things, then that potential guy who supposedly was so good to his previous gf and allegedly had a thriving business together, would magically show up and he and I would have that, too. He kept telling me he loved me so much because he could see the potential in me…which always kept the carrot dangling…I could *potentially* be the perfect woman for him if only I…were a completely different woman, lol.
True true true true true. This is how I wasted 2 years with the ex, who texted and managed down my expectations, and very ham-fistedly future-faked. But even just this morning I found myself in perimenopausal oestrogen-driven ‘If only he’d gone back to the way he was at the beginning …’
FATAL!
A guy at work is currently flirting with me, and you know what? I’m enjoying it, but not investing in it. Gee, it makes a nice change to have someone actually doing a bit of pursuing, and acting interested. (The ex did neither; I did all the work!)
So now I think of this as doing a mini ‘practical’ exam in Baggage Reclaim Rules. Stay cool. Don’t pursue. Enjoy, but don’t invest until there’s something actually worth investing in. And if he stops flirting, don’t sweat it – just means he’s not right for me, so it’s a lucky escape.
My goodness, but this takes a load off my shoulders … I’m sure my fellow Amazonians out there will relate; it’s nice to lay down the bow and arrow for once.
“Sometimes something is, what it is, and nothing more.” Or how about “A pink ribbon on a sows ear won’t make it smell any better.” Here’s another one I love, “Trying to change a man, is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It pisses you off and frustrates the pig.” Sorry guys, don’t mean to offend. Not my lines. I wish they were. I got it from a movie or something.
So why do so many of us try to make something or someone fit into our picture? It never, ever, ever works. I think most of the blogger here agree on that. So why do we try?
I don’t know about you but I am a hopeful romantic. Every time I meet a new man that has “potential” to be “the one” I wonder…. is he really “the one”. Did I finally attract my soul mate? Or is he here for some other reason? The longer the relationship lasts, them more I start to believe he could be “the one”. Fantasy is a powerful drug.
Thankfully I have gotten wiser in my old age. I finally understand that phrase, “people come into your life for a reason, a season, or a life time.” If any of you believe in the law of attraction you’ll catch my drift. We attract people into our life for a reason. You have something to gain, learn, contribute. Somehow or for some reason, you may not even be aware of, you attracted them into your life.
However, once that reason materializes, the reasons I attracted this man, no longer exist. That realization can be hard especially if I’ve invested a lot of time in and energy into this relationship hoping, hoping, hoping. It is natural to want to fix it, save it, change it or grow with it.
Thankfully I now get it! If that person touched me, taught me in anyway that will stay with me forever, than doesn’t that relationship last for a lifetime? Even if you never see him again?
Makes accepting and letting go a little easier these days.
Hi Janelle, just read your post. I too believe in the ‘Law Of Attraction’ but…the Law Of Attraction is based on attracting “positive” into our lives (that is boundaries values, self worth etc) so if you are repeatedly attracting the same type of men, its because there is a “negativity” that is being put out there and attracting them…as like attracts like. The reason, season or life time people, should be good, healthy and “positive” experiences, as speaking for myself, I don’t think I’d like to remember “the reasons”, I’d rather see it as a negative season and learn from that and move on. 🙂
Nat- you are right on the money again this time!
I also agree that we look for that potential for a fairytale ending. None of us are Walt Disney so it isn’t going to happen without a healthy relationship to start with. I know I have had trouble letting go of the “fantasy” to see the reality of the situation. Your posts and NC guide are huge in snapping me back to “reality” if I start to slip!
It’s scary how much sense this makes, and how resistant I am to give up a relationship that only subsists on history and potential. I’ve been in a relationship with a MM for almost two years and the back and forth has gotten almost too much for me to take. I’ve cried every day for the past few weeks because we’re currently in a “down” cycle where he’s feeling guilty about his children and pulling away from “us”, and I’m in danger (again) of losing something I never even had.
Every couple of months this happens – we’re either totally in love and trying to find a way to make this work, or we’re on the verge of breaking up and he’s second guessing the right thing to do. I’m so in love with him and want us to be together so badly because I can imagine the potential we could have if he would only allow us to be real; it’s been good before, and he has the ability to make me happy, but right now I’m utterly miserable. I can’t concentrate on my job (he’s a coworker), I cry myself to sleep and I’m constantly anxious.
I’m aware that these crumbs he gives me aren’t enough to sustain me – I’m starving. I know this relationship is unhealthy for me and doesn’t even bring me joy anymore; I just keep holding out on the hope that one day we’ll both feel what we used to, and I can fix everything when given a real chance. However, I all but know he’s never going to leave and in the mean time, my heart breaks a little more every day.
Bri
You “imagine” – imagination is not reality. “Potential” is only what could be, it’s not what something is. “If he would only” – but he won’t. “Allow us to be real” – is an affair conducted in the shadows more real than a public marriage in law? “It’s been good before” … before has gone. “He has the ability” – He has the POTENTIAL ability in your IMAGINATION IF he would allow it That’s a lot of conjecture. And I don’t believe for one second he has the ability. Excuse the forensic analysis of your comment but your own words are telling you that you’ve got nothing.
Turn this on his head. In an apartment somewhere a young wife is saying to herself “IF only my husband could go back to being the man I married. I know he’s got the potential to be a devoted partner. He made me these promises. Only last week he did x,y,z.”
Bri, do you really want another woman’s husband? Because if you do, that means one day another woman could go after YOUR husband. There isn’t one rule for you and one rule for other people. You’re miserable not because you love him so much but because you’re not following your values. If this is affecting your health it may be time to get professional help.
Your story is no different from all the OWs here. I’ve been there myself and we don’t want to admit he’s just another cheater and we’re just another mistress (though hardly even that). But that’s the truth and it’s easier to deal with the truth than a mirage.
Hi Bri,
Here’s something I read a few years which I found really helpful. As long as you stay he has no reason to leave. It’s only by leaving him that you have a chance with him long term.
The man you love still lives with his ex…why you must move on to find fulfillment
Bri
I he wanted to leave his marriage he would leave it, not be having affair(s). The children are always the big ‘guilt’ trip. It’s emotional blackmail; it’s really YOU who is to feel guilty about the kids. If he was genuinely concerned for his kids he would be working on his marriage to their mother not using other women as a distraction, fantasy bubble and/or emotional airbag. He’s not that special – you’re not that desperate! (hey Nat… the BR lingo is falling out of my mouth now like second nature. Lol!!).
You sure are betting on potential that he does not have.
Here’s something you already know:
He.does.not.want.to.leave.
He can dress up all his excuses as reasons(!) till you both die – but it doesn’t change the remaining fact: He does not want to leave. For whatever reason.
You know this, so you should know that you are not waiting for him to leave, you are waiting for him to WANT to leave. Put another way, you are not waiting for him to make up his mind about you, you are waiting for him to change his mind about you. Don’t be that woman anymore. It’s time to fold? Leave the madness behind; you are throwing good money after bad.
Alice,
Bri’s “boyfriend” is not “living with his ex”. He is married. With children.
Should any of us be trying to “persuade” a man to leave his wife and children. Who wants to be that woman?
That aside: I don’t buy the ” living with his ex” scenario. It is a contradiction in terms. If he is living with a woman she is current, not ex.
Hey Bri,
I would like to give you some support if possible. I am a recovering OW after a 2 year affair with a MM. Natalie’s blog has THE best posts and comments on cheating and affairs. The information really helped me, although there are still moments when I remember the potential I imagined. Hopefully, you can spend some time reading Natalie’s posts and the comments from the other OW’s. It is so very sad how similar we all sound. Nothing I experienced with the ex MM was unique, not even the soulmate stuff, the cute little text messages, and the “love” we shared, not to mention the great dysfunctional sex. We bet on potential we probably imagined and then the denial starts cracking. It sounds as though you may be at that point? That sucks. Natalie’s books are the best gift I have ever given myself.
One of our songs was “We Belong Together” and he would send it to me every time my denial cracked and I realized he had a wife, which at first was every couple of months, and toward the end was every week, then daily. During one of my repeated slips off the NC wagon, I asked: “If we belong together, why aren’t we together”? His response was stupid.
Simply put, he has choosen to stay with his wife. Most MM’s stay with their wives. We don’t belong together. So sorry for you and for me. I bet on the wrong horse. Worse, he has choosen her, not me or you. Even sorrier still. And, if it could get worse, there’s more. This one took me a while to get, you can’t have a relationship with a MM. He is in a legally binding relationship with his wife. So sorry. I don’t want to add to your grief and tears but you are on this site for a reason, right?
Thank you again and again Natalie and for everyone who posts on this amazing blog for your support and patience. Wow. I had no idea how common these experiences are.
Your comment really touched me Runnergirl and thanks for sharing your experience to help and support Bri. It’s rare that I remember the depth of the anguish I experienced during my 18 months of being the OW but I did for a few moments reading this. Different song, same tactic – I swear they all read the same playbook! I like that you mentioned how the frequency of the cracking increases wildly over time. The turmoil is unbelievable. I thought that there was an association between the turmoil and the depth of our love. Two star crossed lovers thwarted by a girlfriend he ‘couldn’t’ leave for fear of her going off the rails. I truly believed we were soulmates and that he was the love of my life. When I let go of it and grieved the loss and saw him as he really was and what I’d done to myself as it really was, I didn’t really love him very much. I was playing out some father daughter and even some mother daughter drama. And, much as I cringe to admit it, I was like a child trying to get her own way in the worst possible way. He told me nobody could or would love me the way that he did – thank God I didn’t listen to him after a while. There’s a lot of ‘us’ Runnergirl and Bri. The more time that passes, the more that reality comes into focus, is the less intense, is the more you start to realise the sheer madness of pissing away your life living on the fringes. It’s not that they *can’t* leave, it’s that they *won’t* leave.
Natalie and Brie and other OW’s,
It is difficult for me when I hear the anguish and despair in the comments posted by the OW because it is still so fresh for me. Sometimes, I can’t respond to the OW posts because it is too overwhelming. Umm, don’t forget the shame! Even today, I am shocked at how similar the songs, tactics, and playbook are.
I can hardly wait until it becomes rare that I remember the depth of the anguish, despair, and shame of being the OW. That statement so gives me hope that this will pass. With my Unsent Lettter to Daddy and my Unsent Letter to Mommy, I see clearly that I’ve been playing out my childhood injuries. I was described as a “tantrum kid”. I would throw a tantrum until I got my way. Apparently, that doesn’t work in adulthood? No amount of tantrums will get a MM to leave his wife, not that I want that now. I’m letting go, still grieving the imagined potential though. Grief sure sucks too. I’ve got to get out of this muck. I’m sure you all are tired of hearing about my grief by now. Thanks though for not coming to my house and smacking me upside the head.
Bri, if you are still reading, keep reading. There’s a ton of OW’s like me on this site who were betting on the come. Too perfect Natalie: “It’s not that they *can’t* leave, it’s that they *won’t* leave.” CRAAACK in the denial again. Bri and others, we are throwing good money after bad, hoping and praying to win. What would winning be?
Reading all of your responses makes me cry, not only because I know you’re right and this relationship that I want so badly will never happen, but because so many of you have gone/are going through the same pain as I am.
Today my MM told me he feels strongly pulled toward his kids right now, but he doesn’t want me to give up because “history suggests we’ll pull through this rough patch”. What does pulling through even mean? Continuing the affair? Keeping me in limbo and lonely and sad?
While I’m in a very dark place right now and not ready to let this relationship go yet, I hope to get there someday with the support of this blog and all of you who know what I’m going through. I have great friends, but none of them understand (and most don’t even know) what I’m going through. I know it’ll take time, and I’m still holding out on that “potential” but I don’t want to be in this place forever. Thank you.
Hi Bri,
I noticed a little thing: HE is pulled toward his kids but he doesn’t want YOU to give up? Just by habit of reading through the posts I read yours three times and each time that little pronoun jumped out at me.
I kept expecting the sentence to read, “he feels strongly pulled toward his kids right now, but HE doesn’t want to give up.” I don’t know why, but that small detail seems so illustrative of this guy’s character: he’s the cheater, he’s unable to give you 100%, and yet YOU’re the one he expects to have the tenacity and faith.
It’s like he’s saying, I know I’m not giving you anything, but can you please not stop hoping I will one day? Cause I know as long as you keep hoping (and being the glue for both of us), I continue to have my extra-on-the-side.
Notice he’s not promising a darn thing. He’s basically just asking you not to get wise and cut your losses. Yuck.
NML — I don’t even think most cheaters themselves are capable of making the distinction between can’t leave and won’t leave. How do I know? Because our version of unavailability and betting on potential is exactly the same. Which is it? Is it that we couldn’t fold on bad investment, or we wouldn’t? Of course we could, but we didn’t. It was one and the same while we were spellbound by that fantasy potential.
re: “two star crossed lovers thwarted by a girlfriend he couldn’t leave for *fear* of her going off the rails”
Yes Natalie sums it up beautifully –
the pain of just one woman is too much to face for these men, but if he can’t handle hers he won’t handle yours either. Some cheat, some disappear — same difference.
It’s so regretful how misguided it was/is to become so invested in men who are just plain scared… of life! of reality, of emotional consequences, of responsibility for self and others. All these situations, cheating or any other flavor of unavailability, are all about avoidance. They are completely in over their heads, and so were we. All this drama from all parties here is out of control behavior and muddled, magical (that is: childish) thinking.
It hurts so much to grow up, but the longer one puts it off, the more excruciating it is to finally gain self awareness. If you’re not in the habit already, it really isn’t easy to be fair and objective with yourself… I’m still too shaky on self worth and being kind to myself (getting better about not letting others be unappreciative and unkind though!) …but without objectivity and fairness people end up mired in nonsensical justifications like us forever waiting on potential or their excuses like why they can’t come clean with the women who love them.
Yes Fearless, I know Bri’s man is not ‘living with his ex’ but the dynamic is the same. That was just the title of the article I linked to that contained advice I thought she might find helpful. It explains why leaving her MM is the only option. One of two things will happen: he follows or she gets to move on. If she chooses to stay, she gets just more on the same i.e. heartbreak and wasted years.
Following this thread, WHY do we want him to leave his wife?
If he does, that’s when she will pull out the Big Guns – child support, child custody, make up sex, lawyers, the dividing up of assets, family feuding, the years they’ve had together. This guy isn’t good at making decisions or dealing with emotions. He’ll be like a rat in a trap with us picking up the pieces. This can go on for months easily, and even years. After all of that, what do you have? Once the drama is over, the curtains are drawn and the audience has gone home, it’s just the two of you. Either he’s an EUM, an AC, a serial cheater or a decent ordinary bloke. You may as well go down the supermarket and pick a man whose groceries you like the look of. I think the odds are better.
Why all this stress for a relationship? It’s really not necessary. But, maybe, a part of us likes all this drama and conflict and unrequited “love”. Hmmmm ….
Even though I’ve been involved with MMs, for the life of me I no longer know what I was thinking. Cut them off, and one day you’ll just forget them. And THAT is how you win. Not by bagging some poor woman’s husband.
I know you all know this, just having a rant.
Four words – love against the odds.
Actually there’s more:
Trying to be the exception to the rule.
‘needing’ to gain love and a relationship from an unlikely source for it to feel like 1) it’s love 2) you’re worthy
It’s an inverted ego issue – it’s time to start asking ourselves when we’re going to wind our necks in and stop having our egos need such distorted validation?
Hi Grace,
No we don’t want him to leave his wife, but Bri does (or thinks she does). In order to free herself, it’s probably easier for her to know the only chance of him leaving his wife is if she walks. As long as she stays, nothing will change. There’s no guarantee he will abandon his marriage if she leaves – but at least she gets to move on and heal.
Am totally with you Grace. Even if you win the bet with these guys – the aftermath is ugly, yes, he’d be like a rat in trap. When I had a thing with an MM… 15 years ago now I found these statistics for what they’re worth (probably nothing): Of men who are having an affair(s), one in ten leave his wife. Of those who do leave, nine out of ten go back again. Yes, Grace: “You may as well go down the supermarket and pick a man whose groceries you like the look of. I think the odds are better.” LOL!
Bri – the reason you cannot understand his cryptic “history suggests we’ll pull through this rough patch” is because it’s meaningless twaddle. The EUM/MM talk in riddles cos they have nothing of any substance to say.
Alice – yes, I know what you mean, but if we have some, even unconscious, notion that he might follow and that we’d like it if he did, then it is just faux NC. He has got to be irrelevant to our actions otherwise he still figures in them. I’ve gone down that road, that very rationale you speak of, more times than I’ve had hot dinners – and all it does is make you go back to see why he didn’t follow or to see if you can persuade him some more! Yes, the only option is to get out of the relationship – but for good, regardless of whether he follows or not. Ending it means ending it, not ending unless x, y or x happens. What he does or does not do should be irrelevant and if it’s not irrelevant it’s because it’s not really over… and we’re still betting!
Alice, I get what you mean and widely speaking you’re correct but the only reason why you should breakup is to break up otherwise it’s game playing by another name and putting yourself in a holding pattern.
The truth is ladies that shit happens and sometimes you meet someone that is already attached. That is life. What happens from the moment both of you recognise that there’s an attraction/screw each other is pretty much what governs your future:
Allow him to rent the property or use it as a weekend base, occasional time share or occasional conference room hire for a meeting, and not only does it communicate the wrong things about you but they don’t *have* to leave and are free to make up their mind/think about changing their mind while being duplicitous and tending to your attention garden with some Future Faking to keep the *prospect* of a deal alive.
Fact is, if you’re attracted to someone else, shagging them or considering shagging them, that is a major alert warning that something is wrong in your existing relationship or with yourself, or both.
The person that registers that information and 1) addresses the situation and 2) is emotionally honest will not avoid their emotions, the person their supposed to be committed to and the issues – they either go back and resolve to put both feet in to restoring the relationship or meeting you becomes the final nail in a relationship coffin that was already out on the table.
The truth is that it’s difficult to trust and respect the man that pisses you around while chowing down on cake.
You’re also being asked to trust and take a leap of faith on someone who isn’t doing the same thing for you. The feeling is not mutual and he is on a pedestal.
Trying to get a married/attached man to leave is *convincing* which isn’t sexy or healthy but it is kind of desperate after a while. And trust me I speak from experience.
These men don’t look at the Other Woman and think ‘Wow she must be a great woman and love me dearly to take a part time man and live on the fringes while I chat shit about what I will do but don’t follow through on’
They think there’s something wrong with you and that you obviously don’t want commitment.
The relationship smart woman that doesn’t act like a man is the centre if her universe, identity and validation walks because she’s already been on the planet for X amount of years – how the Frick can some blow in with a wife or girlfriend try to dominate her life and her emotions without stumping up the relationship goods.
These men are not that special and they are not irreplaceable. Stop inflating them!
“Saying/thinking stuff like “I wish they’d go back to being the way they used to be.” Or “Why can’t they be like the old [insert name]?”
I got nine months of the reeling me in and three years of the above. MM are nothing special, in fact they are second rate goods. He didn’t look at me and think “she’s special” he looked at me and thought “I can get laid”
It wasn’t love against the odds with the MM and I, it was a manipulated shag and he got me to travel over 3000 miles for it (he paid for the flight a couple of times). My defining moment came when I took control of it and said to myself “enough”
Nat, you are so right, they are nothing special and I was worth a lot more than emotional crumbs. NC has given me the perspective and peace I needed to move on.
Absolutely Natalie. I suppose I was speaking to someone who is not yet there, not yet ready to let go – to encourage them to take a baby step in the right direction, on the basis that it’s better than the alternative… that leaving and hoping is better than staying and hoping.
Alice:
“…but at least she gets to move on and heal.” This is exactly my point earlier – and I speak through long, bitter and painful experience: no, we do not get to move on unless it is *over* and *final* and *for good*. If it’s over ‘unless he follows’ then it’s not really over – and it could take you years to accept that he is not going to follow you… at some point it has to be OVER no matter what.
Look at the BIG picture he is pulled toward his kids because he wants his cake and to eat it too!! He will loose everything if he leaves, his wife…(built in cook, cleaner and child rearer) the security of his family, his house, his savings, and his reputation.
I think one of the things that keeps me so enveloped in this relationship is the fact that we work together and have access to talking every single day. I have to see him day in and day out, and I know that passing him in the halls would break my heart every time if we were’t still “together”.
It’s been almost two years. He’s broken my heart more times than I even remember right now. I’m not happy and haven’t been for a long time. Even if he did leave, I’d never trust him and I’d always worry he was either cheating with someone new or thinking about going back. He told me today, “There will never be anyone else. If it’s not you in the end, it’s no one. I want you now and I will always want you, no matter what happens”. It’s that kind of thing that pulls me back in; it’s that kind of thing that makes it so hard to let go.
For those of you who were in my place, did it ever work out? Did he ever leave and choose you? And if not, do you have any regrets? Do you still love/miss him?
Bri, my ex with the girlfriend worked across from me, then on the other side of the room and then in another department. I still ended it, I still had to distance myself and do a workplace version of NC, he didn’t leave and he didn’t choose me although he didn’t have the option of choosing me even before I met the boyf. That ship had sailed. I couldn’t trust him as far as I could throw him. He had another affair with someone else (not from work). Absolutely no regrets – there is nothing to regret bar getting involved with him in the first place and I rectified that by bouncing his ass and keeping it bounced. I don’t love him nor do I miss him as I’ve been on a Bullshit Diet for six years (plus I have moved on). The man I wanted and loved does not and did not exist. Clearly by your description Bri, neither does yours. You’re not exactly describing something that makes me think “Wow, I’d love a piece of that”. By your own admission, it and he are clearly not that special.
What *is* clear though is that if you’re doing this *and* your miserable *and* he can soft soap you with shite like “There will never be anyone else. If it’s not you in the end, it’s no one. I want you now and I will always want you, no matter what happens” (my ex practically said this word for word), then you’re someone who is words driven.
I don’t doubt that my ex fancied me and cared in his own distorted way but he wanted to own me without putting in – instead he put me on layaway and then carried on like he’d coughed up the goods. He knew on and off paper that I was a ‘great woman’ but treated me like far less and worse, I did it too. I realised my greatness when I dropped him but the truth he only realised my worth when I wasn’t prepared to 1) be the OW and 2) give him the the time of day.
“Oh yes, let me tell you the lovely story of how I met my husband. It’s so romantic. He was married to another woman and they had a child. But he future faked me and told me loads of lies so I fell in love with him. We were so well suited that I stuck around and let him jerk me about for x years. Finally, his wife got sick of him and kicked him out. We argued for months and months while he sorted out divorce and custody. A couple of times he had sex with his wife before the divorce came through. By then, more years had gone by and I didn’t think I would meet anyone else. Finally, I nagged and exhausted him into marrying me. It was touch and go at the church, I really wondered if he would turn up. But now we are so happy!”
There’s a reason you never hear this story.
Brilliant! I just woke up the boyf laughing at you capturing the essence of why you don’t hear happy OW tales.
That is BRILLIANT. Absolutely BRILLIANT. What a good reality checklist!
Unlikely story indeed Grace! I never once felt tempted so much as to touch my would-be ex-h during 12+ months of divorce proceedings. Yuck! His OW was gone before the divorce was finalized. And there was no coming back to me either.
Joking aside. It occurs to me maybe I got so desperately hooked on the Academic because that way I didn’t even have to entertain the notion of patching up the broken marriage…. oh I dunno, maybe ‘for the sake of the kids’ I would typically be a sucker for a hopeless cause like that. I put the EUA on a pedestal and worshiped him for being just the opposite of my ex. (Shh don’t remind me of all the other ways that he was his carbon copy. Especially their intellectual interests, perfectly ridiculously identical!)
Unfortunately I am “the wife” and my husband has another woman….just so you know this is how it is…..
I am not the bitch he makes me out to be; I work full-time, I stay in shape, I go out of my way to take care of our kids, our house, I cook, clean and do his laundry. I volunteer, I keep up with family obligations on both sides of the family, I mow the lawn to help him because I know he has allergies. I try really hard to make everything perfect for our family and my husband. When he gets home from work he is really tired and crashes on the coach. He barely ever drives our kids around and not does he help with meal prep or clean up. The day we got back from Florida this year I went and picked up the dog, went grocery shopping, unpacked and did all of the laundry from the trip. He said he needed to go to the gym and before he got to the gym he spent 40 minutes talking to you on the phone.
Since I found out about you….your MM has begged for me for forgiveness. He pledges to do whatever it takes to show me how much he loves me and what a mistake the affair with you was. He has been making you out to be a stalker, not too intelligent, not too attractive just a good listener. He can’t bear the thought of not being with me or me being with anyone else. He loves his family more than anything. Giving up on our marriage would be too much to loose, to throw all away. He loves me with all of his heart and says he can’t be without me or our kids. I mean everything to him. He vows to never speak to you again – you mean nothing to him.
I see where you are coming from OW…you are single, he is kind, considerate and thoughtful to you. But, look what he is saying about you now that the affair has been found out….get out while you can, go no contact – MM who cheat are sick…they do not deserve the time of day from either of us! There is absolutely no potential for this man to ever be capable of the type of relationship you and I deserve.
Natalie, I’m sorry for being such a blog hog and I understand if you don’t post this. Bri and Bewildered have touched a nerve.
Bewildered, my name is not Sarah so I know I’m not the OW your cheating former spouse was involved with and I don’t swing. I’m certain, however, that my exMM’s wife would say the same thing as you have. I always thought, in that convoluted way OW’s think, that if I just did everything right when he was here he’d recognize our potential (clearly Daddy issues). Afterall he said we belonged together, I was his sunshine, an oasis, the light of his life. (Yuck, I can’t believe I fell for such tripe.) I’d look for interesting recipes, grocery shop, clean, and have everything ready the minute he walked through the door. He had nothing to do here other than eat, dance, laugh, play, bbq, hike, and have sex, although he did trim a palm frawn once. I thought surely that would win him over. It didn’t and it didn’t dawn on me that his wife may have been doing the same thing at home, including his laundry, which I didn’t do. I am certain his wife did everything at home as you did Bewildered. Thank you again for spelling it out and sharing.
Bri, these guys have their dog bowl full on both ends. Why wouldn’t they eat their fill on both ends? Both the wife and the OW may be twisting themselves into preztels to please a lying cheater in the hopes they will choose them, betting on the come. Keep reading Natalie’s articles on cheating and all the comments and you will find the answer to your questions regarding how many OW’s end up the exception to the rule. I’m no math whiz but I was startled. You may have answered your own questions: “Even if he did leave, I’d never trust him and I’d always worry he was either cheating with someone new or thinking about going back.” I had the exact same reservations and thoughts. I couldn’t trust him even if he did leave his wife.
So much here already, Bri, but in light of Natalie’s post: this is the relationship you are in, one with drama, lots of words, mystery, danger, tenderness no doubt, but also a lot of anxiety, sadness and fear. That is the relationship you are in. And I can’t help agree that you are almost certainly in denial about what it would be like if just the two of you. You don’t even know what this would be like and why take such a big risk? Sorry you are in pain, but if you end things and get through it, you will have a far greater chance of a relationship that does not make you feel bad.
For those of you who were in my place, did it ever work out? Did he ever leave and choose you?
I haven’t been in your place, but I can answer your question from a different perspective.
Yes, sometimes these men do leave their wives and children behind to be with the other woman. How do I know this because my dad left for the other woman.
This guy you are seeing sounds like he has young children. Do you consider them and what it is going to be like for them if dad left them for you ? (you may think hes not leaving them just his wife, but he is leaving them too, they will have many many adjustments to make)
Do you think if he left it will be just you and him and all romance ? Do you think he is just going to leave his old life behind and start with a clean slate with you ?
Have you thought about what your relationship with his kids is going to be and what it will be like? Have you thought about who will come first you or his kids ?
Have you discussed what your future with him will be like truly in reality does he want kids with you? Will he be content to only see his kids on days assigned to him by the courts? He already doesn’t sound like he wants to miss out on their lives so if he does leave will he end up resenting you for missing out on parts of his kids lives?
Sometimes I think the impact on the kids is forgotton by the other woman who is busy thinking it will all be a bed of roses just as long as she is with him.
Obviously you don’t have to reply, but I’m wondering if you are thinking of his kids at all because even though it was his choice to leave and to be with you, you still have an impact too.
Dear lord did I bet on the come with the worst chances ever, a MM. It didn’t pay off and despite the wonderful stolen, illicit and totally stupid moments of “passion”, I totally lost at the table. Worse, I lost me at the table. He got laid. I got shit. I’m not betting on the come from now on. Guys can apparently always come. No need to bet. The next long shot that blows my way will get a swift kick in the arse. No more long shots or betting on the come which is a characteristic of MISS. Thank you Natalie. I wish I could meet you.
@ runnergirl “Simply put, he has chosen to stay with his wife. Most MM’s stay with their wives….you can’t have a relationship with a MM. He is in a legally binding relationship with his wife”
That is true however:
The only one who wins is the narcissistic MM (who is only looking out for #1 as always, by thinking he is entitled to the love of two women), I certainly do not want my husband back after he threw me and our marriage under the bus. In a weird way I feel bad for his “special friend” Sarah too because he is now bad mouthing her.
Things they say to their wives about the OW….she was emotionally unstable, trust me she isn’t that bright, she is not attractive at all, I want my wife back she meant absolutely nothing to me, I only love you, I have only ever loved you, she has a lot of emotional problems, you are the one I married you are the only one I have ever wanted. The OW “Sarah” helped him make changes with his relationship with me….funny when I talked to the OW Sarah she said that she honestly never thought about me when she was talking to him. Oh, and he told her to stop calling him so much (but, phone logs show 39 calls from him to her in May and only 15 from her to him)…the poor baby!
Never underestimate these men – they will do/say anything to both of us to come out looking good.
So he tells his OW he is staying for the kids…trust me we (the wives) know this is the only reason too. It makes us feel even better about ourselves since we were the ones at home raising these kids, cooking, cleaning and doing his laundry while he was out with you.
He is feeding us both lines. There is no relationship potential for either of us with narcissistic, self absorbed, emotionally unavailable men. Double flush on these guys!
Hi Bewildered,
How are you doing? You spoke to his special friend Sarah? Did that help you any?
Thank you for sharing what it is like from the wives’ perspective and thank you for your kindness toward me given the fact I was the OW. I really didn’t realize that there is no such thing as an honest cheat and that he had to be lying to me too. I did think about and ask about his wife. He never really trashed her but just said they had grown apart and there wasn’t anything there anymore and hadn’t been for quite some time. Given the frequency we were together and in public, I believed him and that she knew what was going on. Although I did point out that I would NEVER tolerate a guy coming home repeatedly at 2 and 3am. At least that is how I justified, minimized, and rationalized things at the time. I even asked about my number showing up so frequently on the cell phone bill (she paid the bills) and he said she didn’t care and that she was often at home when he called me. I could mostly call him anytime as well. The way he portrayed it was that they were both waiting for their daughter to leave for school to get a divorce. I believed the lines and bet on the potential. I’m not trying to justify my complicity or wrongdoing. I own my part in decieving his wife and family and feel tremendously bad about it. It was like he let me win at the table just long enough to keep me hooked and playing. Like Natalie said, I was a completely unskilled gambler and figured I’d win big eventually. I didn’t listen to my gut and fold permanently. I’d fold one day and like a gambling addict be back at the table first thing in the morning.
You are so right about double flushing these duplicitous, entitled self-aborbed users. I hope you and your kids are doing better and you have some support. I’m sending thoughts of strength and peace your way. Let us know how you are doing.
Bewildered, Runner, Bri … your posts are heartwrenching. These men you speak of, they are treating women either like mothers that they want to charm money/sex/snuggles out of (their wives) before they go outside to find the stray puppies that they want to play with, and keep feeding so that they keep coming around, but know they can’t bring home to mommy (the OWs).
I have felt the frustration of a man either making me into his mommy (aw, do I have to?) or his best doggy (down girl! good girl!); thank god it hasn’t been in the context of having married one of them.
Your stories also remind me of an attitude towards work that I have been guilty of: when I wasn’t thinking that I might one day be responsible for running the company I’m a part of, I have treated it like an adversarial thing – ie. just because I work for you doesn’t mean I’m not out looking for other options, not saying that my boss sucks or that I’m unhappy, not dragging my heels at the prospect of having more responsibility in the company. All I want is your money and all you get is the minimum of my time and effort.
If you’ve hired (married) a person like this, no amount of talking can make that person decide to take full ownership of the company he’s pulling benefits from.
Wow………great post Nat
exactly this is why we cant let go sometimes although we know something is not right and is toxic for our heart and health…..
I love this article
“You don’t need to make up a person and you don’t need to bet on someone else to realise your best you.”
Amen, amen. Brilliantly put. Every word is the absolute truth. What makes betting on potential so dangerous, at least for me, was that it gave me the illusion that I was not EU myself. I got to feel that I was fully committed to this relationship, meanwhile it completely allowed me to disregard the fact that there was no relationship to begin with. That’s the trap – by clinging to the potential we think we see in these waste of space guys, it lets us feel like we are jumping in with both feet and trying our damndest, when all the while we are really just hiding ourselves, from ourselves.
The truth of the matter is – if we wanted a real relationship, we would be in one, with someone that also really wanted to be in a real relationship. Pretending to sacrifice yourself on the alter of trying so hard to make a bad bet work is just a great way to create drama, have loads to bitch to your friends about and it helps you look and feel like you are in the relationship game, when all you are really doing is throwing up a lot of smoke and fireworks to keep from dealing with yourself. We go on and on about the problems with these AC/EUM guys, but really its just a way of not looking in the mirror ourselves. I know – I have spent the last 46 years of my life doing just that. The only potential I want to bet on now is my own.
Debra
You’re exactly right. I have the dubious gift of being able to get uncommitted men to commit. I should write one of those crappy Get A Man books. But once I got them, what happened? I didn’t want them anymore ! I was bored. If I’m not playing games, winning someone over with my intellect, humour and charm, doing the pushme pullyou dance , analysing them, competing with other women … what next? Our dogged determination to make something out of nothing is an extremely effective distraction from the no.1 problem. We don’t want a proper relationship. We either actively don’t want it (it’s boring, it never works, people are just fooling themselves that they’re happily married, it’s against my religion) or we just don’t know what it is, so we chase what we THINK it is (validation, winning someone over, a feeling, zsa zsa zu, sex, common interests etc).
My relationships got steadily worse until I met the ultimate commitment phobe who I couldn’t even get to commit to next weekend. This went on over a period of thirty years and I strongly recommend that we take the opportunity presented my Nat’s blog to learn from her and each other rather than keep going out there to be used and abused until the penny drops.
I’ve dated/married/lived with every permutation of EUM/AC. Not a single one of the men I read about on this blog is any different to those. They really are not that special. The potential is in your head.
And yes I know people do change but in their own time and for their own reasons. And he’s certainly got no reason to when there’s a harem of woman, or just you, clucking around him making him feel like a demigod!
I plead guilty! At least as my last ex (Mr. Youth Organization) is concerned. You know why it happened? Apart from the “it started out so great” discourse, he seemed to possess (at least to some extent) some “nice guy” qualities, and I couldn’t think why someone who looks “good on paper” (intelligent, in very good relationships with his family, takes my side when I find myself in conflict with other people) could not know how to treat a woman, or at least be honest about what he wants and doesn’t want. Plus, I also had various people telling me: “Oh, give him some time! He’s still very young, someday he’ll be ready for a relationship. He cares about you in his own strange way, but he’s just not ready right now.” Therefore, there has been the temptation to use age as an excuse for his behaviour. But I also know many guys his age who are in stable relationships!
BTW, a couple of weeks ago he had his first undeniable “moment of truth” in one year. He actually admitted he didn’t want a serious relationship! Hallelluyah! 😀 We were not talking about my relationship with him, it all started from a joke. I took him one year to admit, although his ACTIONS during the past year have been demonstrating exactly that fact, despite all the BS he was telling me about wanting to find his soulmate! So, yeah, surprise-surprise! :-PAnd you know what? It made me feel good! I realized the problem was not me not being good enough, but him not being up for a serious relationship!
At the moment, things between him and I are friendly (as much as exes can be called “friends”), but I started to look at him as if he were some silly kid, I never bring up our relationship into discussion, I never ask him for anything, nor do I try to convince him of anything. I let him live his life the way he wants, and I do the same with mine! 😉
well, isn’t it just dandy when other people are essentially telling you: Sweetheart, it really is time for you to settle and stop whining about that guy not treating you right. So what if it’s idiotic advice, it’s not their time and affections going to waste, so why not spew nonsense anyway? It’s not too soon for him to grow up, but it’s too late for you to do better?!
I got married when we were 23, knowing he wasn’t into career and home and children at the time, but assuming he would grow up in a few years. 15 years later it was safe to conclude he wasn’t going to, at least not under my watch.
Looking back, fifteen years would not have been a hopeless time frame to find someone who’s already grown up. But it can’t happen unless you’re looking.
That’s definitely gone into my list of favourite comments file – hilarious and so true!
I think waiting and hoping for things to change is a huge gamble, girls! What if things don’t change? What if, just like in your case, Cavewoman, many years go by and he’s still the same, only that now you’re married? :-S It’s a risk I would be scared to take, therefore shutting myself from other options…is not an option! I think it’s always best to take people as they are *in the present*, and with a guy like him you either accept just a fling and take it for what it is, either move on completely.
You know what he did last w-end? We went camping with our friends (about 20 people), and he came with a girl who wasn’t from our group. And one of our friends went to him (I was close enough to see them speak) and asked: “Oh, is that your girlfriend?” Him: “No, what girlfriend? It’s not something important!” Friend: “But what if she gets hurt?” Him: “Well, who cares!” :-O I felt embarrassed for that girl! I wouldn’t have liked to be in her shoes! She looked like an “appendix” in our group, she didn’t know anyone apart from him, nobody really bothered to speak to her, and he often looked uncomfortable too. They were the first to leave, early on Sunday morning. What I know is that the next thing he went somewhere else by himself (or at least without her). I wonder why he brought her there! To show off in front of me? Not to mention that it was risky: at some point, I was alone with her at the ladies’ room, and had a short chat (about beauty products 😛 ). And if I were a b*tch, I could have told her: “Run away, this guy is bad news! I know it from my own experience!” But I decided not to care, although she seemed to be a decent girl.
As a conclusion, I repeat: with a person who behaves like this, gambling on his potential that he might or might not reach in the future is too big a risk! It’s better to stay away!
“Oh, give him some time! He’s still very young, someday he’ll be ready for a relationship. He cares about you in his own strange way, but he’s just not ready right now.”
Sandra, one of my friends – who I love dearly, but has been with the same very kind man for years, so she doesn’t have the most…accurate perspective sometimes – dropped that line on me about my ex-AC that I told you about (Yes, The Religion Insulter, who decided the best way to shift his way out of things was to either share or front like my half-Jewishness was a turn-off.). He’s 31.
Natasha, nice to hear from you again! 🙂 Your ex is a bit older than mine: mine will be 27 in 2 weeks. So, I think eventually it’s a matter of character. Of course, there are many men who date/sleep around in their youth, but later settle down. I know many of them. Admitting consistently (not just on some “thunderbolt” moment) that you’re that type of “Casanova”, and clarify with the girl *from the beginning* what she should and shouldn’t expect is one thing. But he did some things that are simply rude, at any age. Like that story above. Or, whenever confronted about his bad behaviour, he’s the one who plays the offended part, telling you how unfair you are. Or, I know about a couple of girls who rejected him, and then he either denied making moves on them, either said that “they were ugly/stupid/etc. anyway”. Not nice! :-S
So good to hear from you again too lady 🙂 I totally agree and it’s also totally possible to be Young Guy Playing The Dating Game while still being a decent person haha! That story was also an excellent example of why worrying about them being “better” with the next girl is often such a waste of mental energy – this jerk is Case In Point. That poor girl – thank God at least YOU made an effort to make her feel welcome! I’ve been in that position, where everyone (except me, of course) knows that I’m not going to be around for long and it’s so painful. You got yourself some big time karma points with that little act of kindness 🙂
Yeah, normally I’m a very friendly person, so whenever there is someone new in the group, I always try to make them feel welcome and get to know them. In this case, I wanted at least to be polite, although I can’t deny that I was not very comfortable with the situation. But I avoided getting too close, as I normally would have, for fear not to “spill the beans” or get into a conversation about him and/or their relationship. What was I supposed to do? Give her “references” about him? Hahahaha… 😛 Now I’m being sarcastic, but that was one of those situations when I didn’t know how it was best to behave, but I guess I did a good job! 😉
Oh lordy – guilty as charged!
The problem is that one of my AC exes actually did make me the exception to the rule. We were friends and he constantly rejected me for two years (while sleeping with me) and i totally adored the man i thought he could become. Then i moved on to someone else and, hello! There he was, begging me to be with him. I thought all the potential that i had seen in him was finally realised, but he turned out to be the most posessive, jealous, controlling and abusive boyfriend i have ever had. Really be careful what you wish for! It took me years to finally extricate myself from that car crash.
I bet on the ex EUMs potential too, hoping that we would go from F-buddies to glorious romance (pff!). Had i learned anything from my AC experience? Had i buggery!
With the current boyfriend, i resolved to cut the bullshit and observed him like a lab rat! I sat there going ‘any minute now, annnnyyyyy minute now he’s going to turn around and do something terrible!’. But he didn’t. He always did what he said he was going to do, he didn’t blow hot and cold, he didn’t chase me down like a greyhound after a rabbit. You could have knocked me down with a feather! 🙂 Relationships have their ups and downs and take work, but being with someone is supposed to be easy! If it’s too much like hard work there is definitely something wrong somewhere.
Im trying to put a two year “relationship” behind me at the moment. Basically we fell in love when he was in a long term relationship that had gone stagnant. He split with his girlfriend immediatly after admitting his feelings for me but he underestimated the guilt and period needed to grieve so we never became a real couple, it was always Im not ready yet. He still says he loves me now but I feel I need to move on, Im in my 30’s and want to be open to meeting someone who I can have a real future with.
I have a crush on a new guy but Im not sure if its a rebound feeling or something that it would be good for me to persue. Me and my ‘ex’ havnt had sex in over a year but our attempts at staying friends have become complicated on a few occassions. He is still telling me he loves me so its hard to let go emotionally. Im pretty sure my ‘ex’ is genuinly just not interested in having a relationship with anyone. Surely it wouldn’t be fair for me to persue my crush while I still have feelings for the first guy, even though we havn’t been together in ages? Or is that me still holding onto the fantasy that romance will eventually win out?
Ladyjane, in my opinion, you are going no where with your guy and it doesn’t look like it will change. If i were you, i would cut the contact and move on with your life and find someone who can give you what you want.
Thanks,
I know thats true. We were very good friends for years before he admitted he had feelings for me. It makes me sad to think that he knows me so well, we have such a big shared history it would have been lovely if it had worked out, but it hasn’t. He’s happy with the “friends” situation but Im not and I know I wont be able to move on while he’s in my life. He tells me things like he doesn’t want to get over me, which makes me think I should hold on but two years must be far too long to hold on for anyone!
ladyjane if there’s one thing we all know here is that not wanting to get over someone is not the same as having a meaningful relationship. Hence betting on potential. You both seem to be in it for the potential, not for the reality, of the two of you.
excellent point! That’s why I always come on here-I’m always learning something new to enlighten me. Thank you.
ladyj
It’s better to end a relationship (properly) before starting a new one.
I had a series of “overlapping” relationships which is how I ended up in several extremely dangerous and hurtful relationships.
We make good choices in men when we have healthy self-esteem, are happy, and fulfilled. We make very bad choices in men when our self-esteem is in tatters, or we’re in a crap situation that we’re trying to escape. The best thing to do is cut off the ex completely and spend some time on your own, reflecting and growing.
Is this new guy likes you and is genuinely available, then he won’t be going anywhere. And even if he does, he’s not your last chance.
The ex in a non-starter by the way. There is no potential there to bet on. If he loves you so much why isn’t he with you?
Lots of women here have commented the same – we were friends for years and then … cue sad story. I can absolutely see how a friend should have the potential to be a good partner but it doesn’t seem to work out that way.
I’m going to put it in the suggestion box for a future post, something on how to deal with the move from friendship to relationship, can it work, what would that look like?
Hi Ladyjane,
No, it wouldn’t be fair to pursue someone else while you’re still emotionally invested in the first guy. Sounds like you need to go NC with the first one, as the friendship situation you describe isn’t really friendship if he’s still saying I love you’s and every now and then it gets “complicated” (I’m assuming you mean sexual). Cut all contact with the ex, take some time to get your head clear and have no emotional investment in him, then you’ll be ready to give yourself fully to someone new. Good luck, and if you’re new to BR, welcome – and take a look at Nat’s posts on staying friends with an ex.
I agree. Go NC with the “friend” and get him out of your system. He’s got nothing for you. Some friend.
Thanks for all your replies.
Im new here and its great to see so many people are sympathetic to this kind of situation. Often in real life you get the responce of “are you not over all that by now?”
The new guy doesn’t know I have a crush on him, he’s just a casual aquaintance as it stands. Maybe its just a nice distraction for now.
Well Ive set my facebook chat to appear offline, the usual form of communication in this “friendship”. In truth its been dwindling out for a good few months so avoiding contact probably isnt going to be too hard.
Yeah ladyjane, you have a classic eu situation going on here. He doesn’t want a relationship with you, but he wants you as a security blanket. Dog in a manger. You DO need to cut ties with him at least for a while. I hope you can do it.
Also, take a look at your post. I’ve noticed in my personal life that a lot of what ‘is done’ to me in relationships – if I’m brutally honest with myself, I see that – I’ve either done to guys in my life, or ponder/am tempted to do it. It’s because many people repeat the same types of behavior in relationships – we’re all similar animals. But it’s also because we’re stuck in a cycle and we draw these types of experiences to us.
You’re considering beginning a daliance with someone when you’re fairly sure you’re not over your ex yet. Which is, in essence, what happened to you with this eum. Be careful! I’ve noticed that if I take a good look at a situation or possible situation. And if I really think about it and the implications – it helps me to see the patterns and stop them. Put yourself in this new guy’s shoes, and take responsibility for your actions. It’s not a lot of ‘fun’ but it really leads to better choices for everyone involved. He’s not the last guy on the planet. And you could end up hurting him…or at the very least, acting like a jerk.
Lately, I swear, I don’t know where people think the fire’s at!? Stay single for a while. You have nothing to lose (except your fear) and quite a bit to gain.
That was me. I remember approximately 7 years ago, I met a man from online that I ended up dating for a few months. On the first date I came home and said Ithink I met the one. All the while kept talking about the ex, how she was crazy, he came on so strong, as soon as he had me, he was all text, barely wanting to spend time with me. All along I knew something wasnt right, buy was so out of touch with reality. I mean, my dad was still emotionally abusing me, at the age of twenty three, although I was out of the house at twenty for mere survival purposes. After I ended things with him, I doubted myself and would still keep in touch with eum through instant messanger, thimking maybe I was the wacked one, and maybe thats why he didnt want to be with me. Believe it or not, now 29 going on 30, after being no contact for sevdral years he facebooked me asking how I was, now my blinders are off and see tge reality. After I severed ties with my dad for five years now I have been gradually getting healthier in all aspects.
“Some people don’t do steady and only roll out the goods on the short term to get a buzz or reel you in”
Nat, that was my last dipstick down to a tee. This week, i feel relieved he’s out of my hair…i did feel stung by the rejection when he stood me up ,but in reality, he was just showing me who he is – not someone who was going to value or treat me right or be a decent, caring person. I’m so glad i called him on it. I’m just not prepared to bet on potential in an attempt to turn a lemon into lemonade.
And being on this type of rollercoaster ride is so unhealthy for us. I don’t even like rollercoasters!
I have been reading tarot cards for myself for 17 years and they are unbelievably helpful, though of course they’re open to interpretation so if I don’t want to see what they’re trying to tell me, I won’t. I can’t tell you how many times since the break up I’d get the card that said “You will not see any profit from your investment.”. It took me finally realizing the relationship was truly over and he had moved on to new supply to see that it wasn’t about monetary investment.. it was about the investment I had put into him. Live and learn gals! It’s all we can do!
Carrie, thanks for reminding me! I also have tarot cards, but I haven’t read them since I met my ex (which is more than 1 year now). Let’s see what they say! 😉
Heh should be interesting! Love to hear what they said. I find that sometimes I’ll go months without reading them, but when there’s something going on my life I will read them every day trying to figure stuff out. Like they’ve been telling me over and over again to look to another job or career. But I didn’t understand because I get paid well in my accounting job and I have a lot of freedom so why would I look for another accounting job? Oh right.. Because I’m bored silly and it’s not my passion – Psychology is! I haven’t gotten that card since I made the decision to go to school for my Masters.
All that said (and I do agree that you have to judge people on the ‘now’ not the future), a prison warden did once tell me that he’s only seen two things genuinely change a man: God, or a good woman.
honest
we must all be very bad women then, none of us has got a man to change!
Ladyj
as Grace said ..lots of women here have commented that we where friends for years and..cue sad story…
I still miss him actually, but as I have commented before it is my grief for the loss of friendship that was the most painful ..and made it more difficult to move on …it was the constant thought / torment that our years of friendship couldn’t have been ” real ” either that was the knife through the heart . but sadly I’m coming to conclude that it wasn’t a real friendship ( on his part ) maybe he just always wanted to get into my knickers ?? …I trusted him mainly because we were ” friends ” ..but I can’t excuse myself ..precisely because we were friends I knew all his relationshit histories …but I only know now I had all the red flag information …just when we were only friends ..it dint apply to ME surely ??…
Now I know different !! He was always what he was ..a bit of a shit !!
When anything more than friendship was asked ( at his insistence..telling me he’d had feelings for years ) ….nada , nothing , jackshit, an empty shell ….and cue my broken heart , spirit , and self esteem.
one of his ending texts said ” I don’t believe you wanted to be my friend …you used me at the end of an unhappy marriage ”
what a load of shit ..and I hope he knows that too.
all I can conclude is that he was never a ” true friend ”
heartbreaking .
You know it’s very painful to read what Nat wrote and see yourself as clear as a bell. You ask yourself, “what the hell is wrong with me?” I am not a gambler and usually very cautious, but I gambled on this man big time. I lived in the world of wanting him to go back to the way he was at the very beginning to thinking I could be the one to help him be the happy poet I knew he was deep down inside to the happy cinderella fantasy ending. I used to listen to music about wonderful love and text him the lyrics or the name of the song, hoping he would say something romantic. And what I got back texted was either “meaningless chick song” or no reply at all. Yet, I did it over and over again. I wanted him to be so much more. I even told my sister, “he had potential”. And she answered “yeah, potential to hurt you and break your heart”. But I wouldn’t listen. Between his good looks, his beautiful poetry, his aloofness that I viewed as “cool” and the god-awful “bad boy” fixation and great sex, I gambled two years of my life on nothing. Like compulsive gambler in Vegas.- I couldn’t stop. I was convinced I would eventually win the house!
Today was a very bad day. I got a email from him at work. His email said, “You sick or something?” That’s it. This from a 29 year old man who writes beautiful poetry. All I get is a stupid teenage question! I know he is wondering why I haven’t contacted him and so he sends me that juvenile email. I felt sick over the stupid question and I feel sicker over my reaction and feelings. I actually became excited, sweating and hyperventilating that he got through to me. And I wanted to answer! All of sudden I felt how how much I missed him. And I am sick that I would miss what was so wrong for me. I didn’t answer him and I won’t. But today I feel like it is day one with NC. Like I’m starting over again. How can anyone miss something like that? What is wrong with woman that we put up with this? He doesn’t care about me, yet I’m the one in pain about the email. Insane!
Vanja, I know exactly how you feel. Mine was gifted with words in his professional and academic capacity yet when he had to deal with his relationship with me he turned into a gormless twit who could use ony three words at one go and only so long as none of them had more than one syllable. I know precisely how this email made you feel (as in, anger, not the hyperventillating bit; eventually mine just made me v angry – not excited!).
If it wasn’t for the importance of NC I’d suggest a return email, ‘Yes, sick of you.’ But it is crucial that you do not answer him. Let him figure it out all by himself – he’s the special, clever clogs, aferall, who’s way toooo good for you! Pah.
What you see in these emails/texts is that he is NOT all that. In fact he is emotionally thick as two short planks. You, like me have been betting on ‘no potential’… now that we have shrugged off that fur coat of denial it’s important not to buy any more chips and start betting again. His email is upsetting because it confirms to you in black and white what Nat is saying on this blog – that she is absolutely right. She knows this man and she knows why you are/were hooked and betting on him. Just trust BR. The email and its effect on you illustrate just how important it is to ensure, as far as possible, that there is no contact either way.
But think, Vanja… think about what you saw in that email that you would not have seen before; because of NC the blinkers are coming off. Don’t bet on this guy anymore. He’s hopeless. He’s not that special and you are not that desperate! Do something nice for yourself today and just keep going – look after number one!… see all that dogged determination you had to turn him into someone worth your trouble – use it now on YOU! x
Fearless so many of your comments light up my day, this was one! I got so hooked on beautiful, profound, sophisticated rhetoric. But that was all academic — I only ever got sparse, aloof monosyllables instead of words of care, respect and love. Incredible, but true and you’re my witness. Thanks!
Vanja
Nat has nailed it with:
– ‘needing’ to gain love and a relationship from an UNLIKELY source for it to feel like 1) it’s love 2) you’re worthy
If a man actually gave you what you think you want (acceptance, love, consistency) you wouldn’t like it. I’ve even heard it described as “repulsive”.
We’d rather chase down a man who is difficult/disappearing /abusive/ married / in a relationship/ not over the ex because it makes us feel special. If I can earn this person’s love then it means I’m a worthwhile person. Without his approval I am nothing. But strangely, if you won the house you wouldn’t want it anymore. What’s propelling this is not how great he is, it’s how little you think of yourself.
You’re not on day one of NC. Don’t respond. Tomorrow is another day.
Vanja – Every time you mention your guy’s a poet, I shake my head: I’m a professional poet and know a bunch of men who make women swoon with their poetry and are relationship duds. One example: a Bosnian war survivor who writes gutwrenching poetry, whose raw work makes the girls cry and the men feel all brave and flinty-eyed, who after the reading lets his partner, who supports him, sit at the table while he strokes the hands of young female admirers … and that is just one example …
Just a thought: poets do it for themselves. All the poetry I ever wrote was to satisfy my need to perform, and I could do it for whoever asked. Whether that person is someone I love and respect and share a mature relationship with, or someone I just want to impress because I want something from them, has NOTHING to do with the fact I’ve developed a skill that impresses people.
It’s like being able to give diamond bracelets. If you’ve got a duffle bag full of diamond bracelets, it’s not that big a deal to hand them out to people.
My one ex was the type to leave a little note saying “I love you” on a lunch he would make for me. That is worth a bazillion performances of poetic prowess.
That said, I always hated it when I would write for my most recent ex, and put all of me into it, and email it off, and get back three words, or even no response. I guess it’s always about how much E.F.F.O.R.T. went into it, as NML says.
And I say this having relied on my aura as a poet to attract people. I can totally see how male poets can have an aura of being sensitive and having potential for relationships. Somehow it doesn’t always work the same way for us women – we just come off as crazier and more fragile than the usual ‘hysterical’ female!
Magnolia,
I would love to read some of your poetry. Your posts are so poetic. “Just a thought: poets do it for themselves. All the poetry I ever wrote was to satisfy my need to perform, and I could do it for whoever asked.” As usual, you can sum it up in a wonderful sentence. I can write a legal brief that makes a judge swoon but most folks aren’t too interested in reading a legal brief. Darn. I sure wish I could write poetry instead of legal briefs.
BTW, female poets don’t come off crazier and more hysterical than the average hysterical female in my opinion. Please post Magnolia, if you feel inclined. Your posts always bring me out of stuck for some reason because there is something else there? It’s just not about “him”. Talk about potential. I’m betting on yours!
wow..i’ve had 4 or 5 phone contacts in almost a year..though I’m not a big caller either.. so….i’m probably as much to blame. I’ve been dealing with EU and this pattern for 10 years now at least. I don’t know how to break it but at least I can see it now.
I tried desperately to be the exception to the rule in a 2 year ‘relationship’ that was going nowhere. I’m NC now and realise that he’s just a player. Long string of relationships with women that never lasted and an ever increasing harem of ‘just friends’. The hard part for me is knowing that I never mattered to him – just another notch on the bedpost. I feel stupid, used and rejected. The AC has moved on to several other women – although they were probably always in the picture. I lost my husband after a long and happy marriage and never knew ACs/EUMs existed when I met the AC. I certainly do now. BR has really helped to clarify the confusion. Thanks Natalie.
Guess we learn by doing
sad as it is sometimes
sometimes i think of the MM and i wish he felt hurt by me getting NC finally……..hurt just one time as much as i was hurt by him
But…….does it really matter?
@Vanja
as long as there is the possibility that he could reach you by text or mail etc. you may hope he ll do it.You ll hyperventilate again and shiver.
Change your mail if possible or block him.Otherwise he ll throw crumbs at you again snd this hurts.
Let him go BUT for real not just in your imagination.
Good luck
Vanja,
Seems your rose coloured glasses are coming off and you’re starting to see him how he actually is, not your fantasy.
My guess is you’re hooked on the fantasy and are a creative type, that is not honouring your own creativity, so you’re ‘hooked’ on his. I think you should try your hand at writing or something else in the arts, feed your own creative self and then you’ll be less likely to fall for his type again.
Just my point of view, I’m no guru lol.
@nat, distorted validation… I agree.
@ grace, such interesting insight. I think you’re wise, and I’m surprised that you had to learn the hard way. Do you think maybe that you weren’t challenged enough in a creative or career way and that’s why you welcomed the drama cases?
Again…I’m no guru, just curious.
Aura
It’s because my mother is crazy. When your mother comes home after work and wakes up your sister to beat her for betwetting, dealing with EUMs and ACs is not a big deal.
Though I take the point about unchallenging jobs. Instead of waiting for a man to boost your income – boost it yourself. Yay!
I hear you in that one Grace, I hear you.
And it’s a reminder actually that when one or both of your parents are crackerjacks, some of this shit we experience in our relationships is chicken feed. That or it feels like ‘home’.
Yep, I thought that as long as my ‘boyfriend’ didn’t get confrontational and aggressive when drinking I must’ve won a watch.
Me too, Grace. I remember when the AC yelled and swore at me, and threw something in my direction, a distinct voice in my head saying, ‘I can handle this’, accompanied by an enlivened and familiar feeling. WRONG on so many levels.
And, Magnolia, I also remember this strange feeling that the AC-wordsmith was writing over and through me. I often thought, and once said to him, that his words were beautiful and clever, but at times were not attached to me as a person, as opposed to an anonymous reader. People can use words to express beauty, deep thought, and compassion, but also to show-off, hide-away, put-down, and write a version of history that flatters and enables.
Grace, my father used to spank me every morning after I wet my bed. I wet my bed every day until I was 11….he stopped spanking me around age 5. I remember it vividly and would lie in cold wet pee pretending I was asleep for hours to avoid him. He was some kind of crazy and a narcissist to boot. I haven’t spoke to him in over 15 years. I am not sure how this has affected me but it is one of my worst memories. Looking back, we lived in a house with an outhouse. Did he really expect me to get up and go out in the dark to pee by myself at three years old? I have had bad relationships with men my whole life. I am aloof, and don’t trust them. He did a bunch of other stuff to and was a terrible model of a man for a young girl to learn from. I have lived in drama in all my relationships and put up with bad treatment, as much as I hate it, it does feel like home as Nat says. Thanks Dad. Things are changing as I am more aware and dig through my emotions. I don’t want to live life emotionally handicapped anymore. I am learning to see the reality of the situation and stop betting on potential and accepting crap treatment. I have slipped up here and there, and have had to lick a few new wounds, but the knowledge I have gained from this site is liberating. I am no longer wandering around in the dark ( still stumble a little though). When you grow up in a dysfunctional ( seriously) family, it is implanted in your head that THIS is love. It’s hard to unravel this and make it right, so that love doesn’t have to hurt anymore.
Jesus Jennynic, I don’t blame you for not speaking to your father. That’s just outrageous inhumane treatment. The thing is and I know this from a family member, being beaten for bed wetting doesn’t stop you bedwetting and actually makes it worse. As a child, it seems logical to hide what you’ve done (I used to tell fibs to delay the inevitable punishment for stuff) because you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Either way you were going to be punished. Awful.
It sounds like you’re feeling better and making progress – remember it’s an ongoing journey. Please rest assured and I’m sure Grace will back me up here, but you can get free of the drama. The drama in my family goes back generations and still exists but I’m beating it every day. You can too. Hugs xx
I think these men like the potential idea of them that they see through our eyes. They want to be that guy too, but just not enough to actually act like him consistently. Or, they bet on their own potential too, and then don’t have the skills required to be balanced, available, and empathetic over time. They may want to live up to our ideal version of them in theory, but in practice they just can’t.
My mistake was believing my ex’s wishful thinking about who he was/could be eventually, and letting it feed into my own wishful thinking about what we could build together in some imaginary future. I linked him reaching his potential (or my version of his potential) to me reaching mine (partnership, kids, family, travel, etc.) Now I know that as soon as I saw evidence that he wasn’t capable, I should have backed out no matter what reassurances he gave me about the future. Now no matter what he does/doesn’t do/says/changes/etc. I know he isn’t and never will be capable of reaching the “potential” I thought was there.
My potential is my potential- and just because a man is too weak, deluded, and lazy to do and be what he says he wants to do and be doesn’t mean I have to be too.
Other Women
You don’t actually want HIM to leave his wife …altho you may think you do ……you would then me lumbered with a major cheating , lying , duplicitous A hole …and then he will cheat on YOU ….hmm its not exactly a lottery win is it ….think booby prize !!
” When you bet on potential, you think that they don’t have the capacity now but they will have the capacity later.” – guilty as charged. This is a big error I constantly make and it doesn’t turn out the way I always want it to be. A realization that I have not mastered – I can never change a person.
Fearless,
Thank you for your advice. I wanted so bad to say “it was you” too, but I knew if I did, I would break my NC. So, after staring it for an hour, being physically sick, I deleted it. I am seeing that he is so self-absorbed and into him, there is no room for me. It has always been about him. Nat is 100% right about these kinds of men. They never change! I could never win because the game is rigged. And if I did win, I would see, not all that is glitter is gold.
grace,
I agree, thank you. I thought if I “got” him, I would be worth something and other women would know I was the one who has this talented and good-looking man. Or so I thought. You are right, I wouldn’t like what he gave me because he would still be all about him and I would lose any self-worth, I thought winning him would bring. I am still NC, but the email was like tearing of a scab of a healing wound.
Simone71,
Thank you. I did as you suggested. It never occurred to me that he would contact my at my work email. He has never before. But I blocked his email and reported it as spam. I am trying very hard to let him go. Last night I packed everything that reminded me of him, or was his, and threw them in the trash. It was a soul cleansing night!
Aura,
I like your suggestion. I don’t think I am creative, but maybe I should try to write how I feel. Maybe it will turn into a poem. 🙂 Thank you for the encouragement.
TO Bri…..something struck me when i was reading this. Imagine that he has left his wife and he’s all yours, like a regular boyfriend. How do you see your relationship then? What would it be like? Do you think you would be happy with him?
There must be things about him you don’t like, but because of the worry you are going through, you may not be paying enough attention to those things you don’t like as you normally would with a guy who is unattached, as most of your thoughts/feelings are focused on your situation with him?
I had a brief r/ with a guy last year, definitely he was on the narcissistic scale, and I found myself unwittingly on a triangle. When i met him, he told me it was over with his wife, there was nothing between them. She had left him a year and a half previously and was living in another country. About two months into the r/s, he started saying my wife this, my wife that… so i called him on it and it turned out neither of them had decided the marriage was over. I had to drag this out of him. It turned out, this guy was waiting on her to decide and if she came back, he would take her back. Now, i had to put these words in his mouth but I got the truth out eventually. He was looking after their two kids full time, and i adored his kids.
Triangulation is a very common tactic used by narcissists to manipulate you. I’m not saying your guy is narcissistic but the effect of triangulation is the same.
But, i definitely felt, while on the triangle that I became a bit blind to him and I was consumed with the “what if” of the r/s. Oh, when he decided on the situation with his wife, he would then put his feet into the relationship, as he was like a fellow stuck in concrete all along! So, i ended it with him and he came back to me a few weeks later to say he had been in touch with his wife who said she definitely wasn’t coming back to him. But did he put his feet into the relationship then, Bri? No, he didn’t, he was just the same non-committal, emotionally distant, playing hard to get guy he was from the start. And another thing about being on the triangle was that I wanted him to see that I was the better woman, that I was capable of loving him more than his wife did. And looking back, this was very unhealthy for me as I felt I almost had to prove myself to him. Do you find yourself thinking like this?
And for me, when the coast became clear, i realised he wasn’t so great after all. Because, when the coast was clear I was able to see him more clearly. It was like a blind fold coming off.
You know, if this guy does leave his wife, things might not change that much in your relationship. And you can be sure you will still be hearing about his wife and kids. That won’t stop. And in a way,…
@ Grace,
I hope I didn’t offend. Thanks for your honest reply. I just was wondering if people are unfulfilled mentally, not all that interested in what they do, that they might seek drama in relationships to get the buzz instead. I thought that you come from a place with a lot of insight. I can understand that if you’re used to growing up with drama, (parents that can’t keep their cool), that it makes it seem normal in a familiar way, or rather makes normal people seem unexciting. I think it’s great that you’re warning the women here. Good on you for turning a negative experience into a positive, by trying to help others.
Aura
Not offended at all.
You raise a valid point. It’s no secret that girls do well at school but underperform in the big wide world. We’re catching up but I still hear young women joke about marrying a millionaire. If money is important to you (and I’m certainly a lot happier now I don’t worry about the bills) … make it yourself. Or at least try. There aren’t as many “trophy” wives as we’d like to think, and there is a cost to it.
If we threw as much effort and commitment at our work/hobbies/friendships/ sport as we do at these half-relationships we could set the world alight. As said in a few comments, let’s bet on our own potential rather than someone else’s.
Natalie, your site is a tonic. I was reading the Sunday papers and I found a ‘relationships advice’ column manned by a professional female psychologist.
Someone had written in to ask ‘How can I be a smoother dater?’ Must have been a guy, because the advice this woman gave was basically a variation on ‘treat ’em mean, keep ’em keen’. The trick was, she explained, to be a bit standoffish, and that way you keep a woman thinking about you, because she’s not sure if you’re interested or not. The punchline was that if a woman has to spend a lot of time thinking about you, it makes her more and more interested in you.
On the one hand, this psychologist was dead right, and it was a good warning: STOP THINKING ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME. This is like a condom for your heart, I suppose; it’s the best protection you can give it when emotions are running high. This is why I’m such a fan of Doing Something Else and Getting a Life, because the more time you spend thinking/daydreaming, the worse things can get.
Anyway, Dr Good-Advices then rounded off her column by saying that this is what a man should do to get a woman sufficiently interested to accept a first date. But then the psychologist reassured us all by saying ‘But after that, no more games.’
Oh really? So she’s just told a guy to play hard to get in order to get a woman interested, and now he’s supposed to stop?
Yeah, right.
With this kind of stuff out there, it’s downright depressing. Thank you Natalie, for being a breath of fresh air and sanity.
pjm
that stuff is all over the place and it’s very annoying. It works because a lot of women (and men) have low self esteem. “I can’t get someone on my own merits so instead I’ll jerk them around a bit/insult them/play it cool and appeal to their insecurities”. I guess the solution is to get more self esteem so none of this jackass behaviour is attractive.
I was a jackass at secondary school. A boy really liked me and I liked him. I wrote a poem in a valentine card and put it in his drawer. He came up to me and said “Did you send me a valentine card?” My reply – “WHO would send YOU a valentine card?!”. Fair play to him, he didn’t really speak to me again after that. To this day, I’d quite like to tell him it WAS me.
Just be yourself, if it doesn’t work at least you weren’t a twit.
@Grace: In the past, I’ve often observed how seemingly nice guys fell for AC/EU women (and got burned, of course). Those guys didn’t seem to pay any attention to me (who always tried to be nice). That frustrated me no end, because I didn’t want to become an asshole myself.
Instead, I decided to focus my own attention on ACs/EUM as potential partners. We all know how that movie turned out. Sigh:
Maybe I just didn’t notice the nice guys who didn’t fall for unhealthy women, because I was so EU myself.
To Bri ”
“There will never be anyone else. If it’s not you in the end, it’s no one. I want you now and I will always want you, no matter what happens”
“I love you and I will always love you” were the words that kept me in limboland for the last few years of my marriage. But when I learned, with Natalie’s help that if words don’t match actions they mean nothing, I was finally able to accept the reality that my marriage was over. If he had been willing to change, and take responsibility for his behaviour, the story may have had a happier ending.
I was stuck in my feelings for so long and agonized for more than a year before I came to a place where I was able to detach with love. It was a long bumpy and bumpy road. Keep walking and taking care of yourself Bri, and someday soon, you won’t even be tempted to look back. 😀
Namaste, Bri, anyone betting on the potential of sweet words:
Here’s a choice selection from men who have dumped me, married men, and abusers;
You I love with all my heart
I think you’re the one
I will always love you. Always
I can’t help the way you make me feel
I passed the spot where we hugged, my heart aflutter
And one of them – a writer- wrote a book about me. The same guy who, a few years later, couldn’t even be arsed to turn up for pizza! I never spoke to him again.
Sadly, they are just words. Don’t hang your heart on them. I think it makes them feel nice, warm and gooey to say it. But once they’ve said it, they go back to scratching their balls, eating pizza, hanging out with the wife, or thinking some more about how great/tragic/tortured they are. It’s not really about us.
I saw this in action a couple weeks ago with the beautiful ex-con gardening guy at my aunt’s place. It was so stunningly blatant, yet so normal to him, that I could see needing to RUN from the charm, if I had thought there was any real danger of hoping he would be in my life:
He was telling me I was beautiful, amazing, asking if I’d run away with him, then literally within hours was making a phone call in front of me to his baby mama, asking her to join him for an outing with their daughter, which he concluded with “I love you.”
This happened a couple times, where I was counting on my fingers the number of hours, or minutes, between him coming on hard to me and then overhearing (or not, because he said it right in front of me, to her) “I love you.” It actually sounded pretty sincere, like very familiar married people at the end of a brief logistics conversation.
When on the last day of my visit he came by and said silly things (do you know the Quebec word ‘taquiner’?) about me going to Arizona with him and his daughter, I opened up and said, “You’re married.” He said, “Not really,” and had all these excuses. I said, “And you tell her you love her all the time.” He said, “Oh, I’ll always love her.”
Well, I was brought up short. He meant what he was saying, but whatever he meant when he said “love”, it obviously wasn’t the same definition of love as I have! And apparently it didn’t mean we shouldn’t still have a mini-break to Arizona!
Words, words, words.
“And one of them – a writer- wrote a book about me. The same guy who, a few years later, couldn’t even be arsed to turn up for pizza! I never spoke to him again.”
Grace, YOU should write a book 😉
Thank you so much for this article. I stumbled upon your website and it has been such an amazing no-nonsense wealth of information. I am currently judging the bet I have placed on potential with my “I’m just realizing he’s emotionally unavailable” guy. He initiated the relationship, moved across the US to be with me, moved in with me, used to spend every waking minute with me (not very balanced) but since has contributed very little to the relationship. He is sweet and funny but blows hot and cold and points the finger at me for being “needy” when I want the basics of a committed relationship.
I moved out of the apartment 4 weeks ago and have not been NC but that will be next on the agenda. I think dealing with an EUM is extremely difficult when they don’t show the red flags in the beginning…when they establish the relationship, talk about the future, move states, etc…my EUM has been slowly feeding me BS: making excuses, not taking responsibility for doing hurtful things, etc. He ignores me in groups of our friends, doesn’t invite me to do anything, rarely calls me, hangs out with the neighbors in our building more than he sees me, and all the while ACTS LIKE THIS IS TOTALLY NORMAL. What a load of BS! To reference a few of your other brilliant articles, I am now on a BS diet, reaffirming my boundaries, not being a sufferer who helps people make excuses for their inexcusable behaviour, and SHOWING that I’m not content to live on crumbs!
It is so hard to let go of the past, the “potential” and to wise up and look at what’s happening NOW. I am working so hard on not being fooled that he will live up to what he was like in the first few months. I have to accept that is an EUM and that he is SHOWING me that he is not available regardless of how much he claims to want to work things out.
Alexandra, good for you for moving out. That’s the first step on the road to recovery. I stumbled across this fabulous website when I realized things weren’t working, despite the fact they could NEVER work. “…have not been NC but that will be next on the agenda. I think dealing with an EUM is extremely difficult when they don’t show the red flags in the beginning…when they establish the relationship, talk about the future, move states, etc…” Have you read the “Future Faking” posts? Sounds as though you may have a first class future faker. His current actions, hanging out with the neighbors more than you, are probably indicative of the future regardless of what he says. So been there and done that…good luck. This is the best website since sliced bread. Have you read Natalie’s books? Worth every penny and then some. My best to you.