Over the past few days (and many times before), there has been a lot of talk in the comments about staying friends with your ex, and more importantly, whether you can stay friends with a Mr Unavailable or assclown after you’ve broken up.
I have written on several occasions about being friends with your ex, for example in can’t we just be friends, and for me it’s like this:
If you are no longer emotionally attached to your ex and have gotten over him and moved on, let’s say 6 months or a year down the line, go ahead and knock yourself out. That is, of course, if he actually has qualities that make him worthy of actually being your friend.
If you want, need, or expect anything from your ex, even if you don’t express it or acknowledge it, you have ulterior motives for wanting to be his friend.
If you want to be his friend in spite of the fact that 1) you were never friends in the first place and/or 2) he treated you poorly in the relationship, I have to ask:
Why the hell do you want to be friends with this man?
Now, when it comes to Mr Unavailables and assclowns, there are a number of factors at play:
The relationship is likely to be based on illusions with much betting on potential involved.
There is a lack of commitment and emotional connection.
There is a lack of empathy.
There is a lack of care, concern, and respect.
There has been much managing down of your expectations.
The relationships are on their terms even when they ‘let’ you ‘think that you’re getting your own way.
There’s a whole load of negativity and lack of positivity.
Your needs were not being met.
You have been trained to accept crumbs.
In essence, the relationship is lacking.
And yet, many a woman, many a Fallback Girl or assclown lover, is eager to be friends with their ex. Why?
Well the way you’ll tell it is:
You don’t believe in being mean/horrible/cold/nasty [insert your word of choice].
You don’t want to waste what you had between you both.
You don’t want to seem like you’re not being ‘mature’ about things.
You still care about him.
You would like to have him in your life.
You think that just because you can’t be lovers, it doesn’t mean you can’t be friends.
You project how you would feel in the situation and you wouldn’t want him to not be friends with you.
Now, hard as this may be for many of you to hear, these are all codewords and phrases for:
I don’t want to let go.
I want to stay emotionally invested.
I’m hoping he’ll change.
I’m hoping that he’ll regret letting me go.
I don’t love me enough.
In reality, if you want to stay friends with your Mr Unavailable or assclown, you are inadvertently establishing a new fallback position.
You’ll still be that woman that he thinks he can rely on for an ego stroke, a shag, or a shoulder to lean on…, it’s just that now he’ll believe he can do it under the guise of ‘friendship’.
If you’re still emotionally attached and you end up providing him with either an ego stroke, shoulder to lean on, or sex, or all of them, he gets the fringe benefits without the hassle of you wanting, needing, and expecting from him as if you were in a relationship.
You’re yet again marginalising yourself because you’ve decided to exchange the situation where you were not getting your needs met for ‘friendship’.
This isn’t because you actually want friendship; it’s more that you want to stay in his life in the hope that he will regret letting go of you, finally recognise your value, and validate you and the emotional expenditure that you’ve thrown at him.
Trust me, you’re not staying friends with him because he’s such a great person and again, you are caught up in illusions and betting on potential, because instead of magicking him into a wonderful boyfriend, you have now conjured up a replacement illusion where he will be a good friend that treats you decently. You have no basis for deciding this – you have more of a basis for telling him to take a run and jump!
Assclowns, in particular, make lousy boyfriends, lovers, husbands, …and also friends.
All he will see is that you still want to be there and offer the hand of friendship in spite of the fact that he has treated you with low regard.
These guys won’t do the friendship on your terms and the litmus test of this is when you refuse to allow them to talk to you in a sexual manner, or to use you as a booty call, give them an ego stroke, call you or turn up at will, or to poke around in your business. When they can’t get these things, suddenly ‘friendship’ is not so interesting.
At the end of the day, if you still want to be friends with someone who is an assclown (or Mr Unavailables) when it’s patently clear that you’re not over them and that you haven’t built up your self-esteem, it’s like playing with fire, and we all know that if you play with fire you get burned.
You have to ask yourself this: Are you actually planning to get over your ex and move on?
If you are, you need to rethink your fallback plan and opt out of the friendship, because what you want is at odds with your actions, and you want to have the best of both worlds, even though he couldn’t even give you the best of one…
Part Two and part three.
Your thoughts?
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I would like some input on this one… can someone please tell me that this is not normal behaviour, or was this a guy that just felt badly for dumping me. So my ex breaks up with me out of nowhere, we had a little spat which suddenly turned in to him screaming at me, with great great rage, that he was sick of me and had been for months. Next day, we work together, he just comes up to me and starts talking to me like nothing has happened, and it’s about personal stuff to do with his stress etc. I of course was nice because I did not want to appear bitter, and wanted to believe we would get back together and he had just lost is momentarily.
Then he called and asked to meet… we go out. He proceed to rip me apart about how awful and terrible I am. Next day opens the day with a friendly joke… this time I just turned and walked away. Called me later that day to ask me some meaningless question and to tell me how amazing I was at my job… I felt powerful momentarily… but then proceeded to be “nice” because I saw a glimmer of hope.
Since then we are no longer working together… he has runs in to me and makes small talk, but that’s it. He doesn’t call, nor do I… I chit chat when I see him about meaningless things and go on my way. I went away on vacation and when he got back, went out of his way to find out how my vacation was, and when I got back… this was not a bump in at work, he sought me out.
Then it goes back to no contact. Does this fit the MO? Or is this just a nice guy who carries guilt for having hurt me? I would have never thought to treat someone the way he did after we broke up. He even winked at me one day and then said he was just trying to be friendly!
Can someone please tell me if this is normal behaviour of men, or the example of an EUM having no understanding of the impact of their actions.
Thanks
NML – you are great! you take very sensitive issues & make them funny. NOT that any of it is funny. But, hey, it sure helps to see it for what it is & get a good laugh. Thanks so much for your insight & humor. You are helping so many.
Dazed and Confused – I’m sorry but I fail to see where there is any carrying of guilt. There’s nothing normal about that behaviour – he sounds like a schizo. I’m not sure how you could write what you did and not see how strange and inappropriate his behaviour is!
Elizabeth – It’s a pleasure to help 🙂
I guess because I have no experience with a decent man and what they do when they break up with you. I am used to this strange behaviour and filled with self doubt. So to me… I guess I am quick to blame me and think “no I push men to want to scream at me because I can be difficult.” As I did write it I felt like no, this is not normal… but I just don’t have the experience of a decent person saying I am sorry this is not working out between us in a polite kind way. So I thought maybe sometimes it just gets ugly because emotions are involved.
Thanks for the input NML.
gosh ur so right….. ive realised my ex only wants to be a good friend when looking for an ego stroke or booty call. ive decided to let go finally, no more being friends…. not worth it
Thanks NML for your articles. I do hope you continue writing them forever!!! The hardest part of letting go — of the relationship AND friendship — is that “what could’ve been” aspect….I met with my EUM last night…for the final time. I’m moving across country and thought that “one last talk” would be what I needed. I guess in some ways it was, but today I’ve set myself back a bit. Being “friends” with him will be on his terms, of that I’m sure. It’s not the letting go of the actual relationship — it’s the what could’ve been (or what I THOUGHT could’ve been). Letting go of the dream — illusion — is so difficult. 🙁
Dazed,
I was close friends with a man, I was one of his few friends, he called me his best friend, but then I confronted him about something troubling I suspected he did, it turned into an argument, and.. just like you described, he turned on me like nothing I have ever seen in my life, the things he said were almost exactly like what were said you.
He then laid low for a few weeks and came into the store I work at. I ignored him, told him how his behavior was threatening, he had no meaningful response, and came in again the following week and I ignored him again.
But I work in a store, and at this point I knew he was bothering me and I suspected he was trying to get somewhere with his mixed up feelings. I sent a letter telling him to stay away from workplace, which he has done. Then, with NC established, I started to recover from his disheartening actions.
Today I got the insight that he is a lite version of Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde, and that is likely a personality disorder.
I think you are right that is does get ugly when emotions are invloved. But like NML has written elsewhere, what matters is what happens after it gets ugly. When I did NC, I intuitively knew I was not equipped to deal with his turbulent emotional troubles, even as a friend… because he can’t. He has always had real trouble communicating when things heat up. It’s too confusing and hurtful to me, the shaky ground he calls home,
But man it is taking me some time and effort to really get over the shock and confusion and bad feelings. And yeah I do feel some empathy that this is a person who opened up to me, who maybe has an illness, but I was not willing to be a friend on his shaky terms.
For all the reasons you mention, it illogically made me have doubts about my own self, and whether I should be more understanding to someone in need.
I think the degree of AC/EUM can vary and there is a line where it’s more of a more difficult personality disorder or illness than typical AC clown behavior. Your story def sounds like what we like to say ” uhh, think your meds need adjusting ”
I joke, but because I have family experience with mental illness, I guess I am more sensitive to just cutting someone off. But at the same time, the relationship got too emotionally abusive for me and for my own sake I had to let go, even though it is hard. And yes the whole thing has left me dazed and confused too.
For me a reason to keep an assclown in my life as “friend”, is because I feel humiliated when he dumped me. By keeping him as a friend, I feel like I still have some sort of control, which makes me feel somehow less humiliated. Isn’t that strange (or rather sick…)
“You have to ask yourself this – Are you actually planning to get over your ex and move on?”
exactly !!! The reality is, that THAT is the real issue that needs to be faced.
You cannot be friends with someone who wasn’t your friend in the first place.
And he wasn’t your friend if he was treating you disrespectful, unkindly, or wasn’t trustworthy and consistently showing you with his actions as well as his words that he valued you in his life and loved you.
And if he WAS respectful, kind and worthy of your trust, and had valued and loved you, you two would still be together.
Stop making excuses for what went wrong, and start knowing that in your wanting to be friends what you are really saying is that you can’t bear the fact that he has left, that you are alone, that your dream did not materialize and that you cannot make him into the person you believe you want him to be with such blinders of hope.
LET GO. He didn’t value you as a wife or girlfriend – he will NOT value you as a friend.
And you will die inside when this ‘friend’ (your ex) starts telling you who he is dating, and when he finally cuts you out of his life altogether because his new (latest) girlfriend doesn’t want him talking to you !
He will NOT think you are amazing and understanding and be grateful you are in his life and realize he never want to let you go.
He will just have contempt for you for accepting so little, and figure it’s fine with you because you are putting up with it.
And he will have no guilt about it either, nor feel like he owes you anything, if you were secretly hoping he’d feel obligatred to return your “niceness and warmth and loving and forgiveness.”
You have showed him that you really DON’T think you are worthy of being the main person in his life exactly because you will take 2nd, 3rd or 4th in his priority list so meekly after being dumped.
You must have healthy boundaries and let go of your ex when the relationship had ended/is painful more than it is pleasurable.
Be a friend to yourself, and don’t accept crumbs of time and attention from someone who doen’t care you are spending Saturday night – your birthday – the holidays, etc. by yourself.
No, you cannot be friends. And you shouldn’t want to be. He hasn’t done anything worthy of your friendship – he’s told you he doesn’t want you, and that isn’t ‘friendly’.
Hello, I tried being friends after a few break ups and then got back together and ended up with me cutting all contact (nearly 8 months now)… he was as unavaillable as a friend as when we were together …:-( . Finally know am better alone..
I have a question regarding this. I recently met a guy at a rock concert. The night I met him it was clear he was looking for a little fun but I wouldn’t let it go further than a kiss or two. His friends were there and they warned me that he had a bad breakup at the beginning of the year and that he’s not over her and trying to be a player (but it’s not in his nature so he’s really bad at it). I summed him up and knew he had potential but didn’t want to take it further. He got my number from my friend and and started texting me and we ended up having a conversation this way. I also agreed to have dinner with him. At dinner, he did a complete about turn and behaved in the most respectful way possible and didn’t try anything inappropriate. So we had a great date and I started to really like him. The next day I asked him why there was a sudden change in tempo from his side and he said that he had been too drunk to see on the Friday that I am an awesome woman and that I respect myself so I deserve his respect and he is giving it to me. He also said I was worth too much to discard and he wanted to get to know me better. I was blown away and so we made plans to see each other again. The whole time he stayed in contact. Then on the day of our date he calls me and tells me he’s still in love with his ex and not ready to date me. Now he wants to be friends. I am upset because I warned him initially that I don’t tolerate EUM’s but he’s called me this week already to check in. He’s writing exams at the moment and has to focus on that. I am a firm believer in no contact but considering we technically only saw each other twice and only one of those times was a date, he can’t be classified as an assclown. Also, he was honest and upfront with me about his feelings and he didn’t try to sleep with me (not that I would have let him) or attempt any sexual contact with me. It’s really hard to find a man that is so self aware. Do I keep him as a friend (knowing that I’m hoping when he’s over her he’ll choose me) or do I cut off all contact?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Nice article and that is so true.Like I said as soon as I cuted the sex from my friendship with my ex he decided he wasnt interested in being friends anymore.NML is so right.I did try being friends after the break up twice even and honestly it doesnt work.The first time our friendship lead to try to get back together(to a relationship that didnt fulfill my needs like before) and this time to being used.I think I just wanted to keep him on my life when I asked to be friends and Im finaly realizing it isnt worth it.
Dazed
Wow – I know its easy to say when you’re not the one involved – but this guys sounds like a total nutjob who has no handle on his emotional outbursts. I do not think that you could have ‘made’ him respond in such an immature manner – no matter what you said or did. That is just who he is.
I dont know if this is the same guy you mentioned before – but, if so, it seems that sometimes those ‘quiet and shy’ types have quite a bit of hostility built up inside them and although they may seem fairly even keel for the most part, when they blow it’s way out of proportion to the immediate incident. Like it’s been building up a long time and they seem to have no control once the lid comes off. This guy sounds kind of scary – I’m glad you are done with him.
Loving Annie, your posts are always very insightful. I went back and read something by you recently. I also liked one of the posts about how it’s a lose lose with these guys. You said something about how if you fight, they argue and if you stay they think you are weak. I did this at the end having forgotten the lessons learned last time. I was honest, I was heartfelt… but my self esteem has dropped off because I didn’t stand up for myself. I told him I missed him and he kicked me when down. I didnd’t argue because it only further proved his point, and just said thank you for your views and then left. But I made contact after that… mostly because we work together and I was forced to see him every day and battle between not being bitter and professional and not being too nice. I was too nice.
Aphrogirl… It’s funny that these men seem to have serious communication issues but it was my communication that was always chipped at. I was told I did not deliver messages well, quote definitions of communication, told I needed to not be so mean and critical.
I kept working and working at it… but his communication sucked! And because I couldn’t “show” him that I doubted it myself that it was me who had the problem because he certainly knew it was not him.
NML… I am also wondering if you might say something to us about forgiveness of yourself. I see that a lot of us want to be friends with these men, and we chase after them afterwards, try and apologize. The day my Ex dumped me, he hung up the phone on me. It wasn’t over until the next day when I called to apologize and he lost it. But I want to forgive myself for having gone back to apologize, for not having had the strength to say this is not acceptable behaviour, to watch him freak out as I withdrew, as opposed to letting him chit chat to me all weak and me smiling like some puppy dog. How do you go away with dignity knowing you missed your moment to be strong and stand up for yourself?
If people try and be friends with these men it will only prolong the process because at some point your eyes open up and then you feel really small because you know he’s been laughing at you for being so weak. Do not prolong the inevitable by trying to appear nice to these men and get what scraps you can. Please be strong, not rude or bitter, but be strong because the longer you hang around the more of your self esteem you lose once you realize what this person truly is.
The only time I have been able to be friends with an ex, was many years later. The others, even one two years later didn’t work. That one, he wanted more than I was willing to give, and became trouble in a current relationship, spending a lot of time attempting to influence my perception of things. The other, I thought I was over around six months later, but I wasn’t and I’m not. I am still somewhat engaging in the friendship knowing what it is doing to me. The six months worth of work I did on myself went mostly all down the drain.
You may think you are over them and are now okay to be friends, but most all of the time, you are just fooling yoursel, because of all the reasons NML states.
searchingwithin’s last blog post..How Will We Love?
I dont know about others, but I didnt stay “friends” with my exes…OVER is over, no way back, even as a friend! I dont want to see them again, I am not bothered what they do, or who they with…it is not MY CONCERN anymore!
Thank you NML!
I think what can help to let go is to take the EUM out of the pedestal we put them.One time a friend asked me “what is so great about this guy that you just cant let go?” And I couldnt come up with a answer,I mean he wasnt a much good bf and the relationship wasnt good either so I realy didnt have reasons to hold on to that.If we start to see them as how they realy are instead of the image we have of them,we will see there is realy no reason to not let go.
What I love about your article is it’s affirmation of my feeling that I could care less about seeing or hearing from my ex ever again! I thought I was being insensitive, unkind, and immature not to be able to keep friendly feelings. Hah! It’s with such a feeling of relief that days go by without hearing his voice. The silence is so healing. Thanks!
NML thank you! thank you! thank you! Great post and right on point. These men are not good at relating because they have no emotional life and whateer emoions they do have is reserved for getting their needs met.
To Judy June,
Cut contact. He is still in love with his ex, he just broke up with her and now he is back with her and doesn’t want you. Hoping he’ll break up with her and then get back with you is, as NML warns, “betting on potential” and living an illusion. Thank him for being honest in telling you that he doesn’t want you. BUT YOU WANT a man who is available and makes you #1 in his life not lady-wait-and-see-how-it-goes-with-this-other-chick-and- then-I-might-talk-to-you-and-give-you-some-of-my time. Please!!
Amen NML! This is totally what I am going through right now. My EUM (and as hard it is for me to admit, total Assclown) had been a friend first …for years! He was kind and supportive…then we crossed the line (in many ways–he’s married) and then it became the AssclownChannel…all him all the time…and I hung in there for all the reasons you listed…the same with trying to have him in my life as friend (the comment about not wanting to seem like a >insert word here< rang so true). This supposedly smart woman should have known better…all him, all the time–not there for me in the least. What tears me up is that I wonder–Who was the real him? The friend I had for 20 years? (I am in my late 40s) or the guy I had the fling with? I guess it shouldn’t matter since I am dealing with such a jerk but well, it just hurts.
YES! Wonderful post NML–in fact I recently did not go to a meeting about something I’m interested in because I might run into a**clown and I’m just not ready to deal with him. I tried to be friends with him while we were doing things together but he’s not capable. I have no guilt or remorse, even when I think about his positive traits. But I know that others–both men and women–know what he’s up to. He’s a loser in so many ways.
Dazed and Confused,
Thank you… The learning curve is a slow and sometimes hard one, but if I can get it, anyone can 🙂
Dont ever worry about not being nice – meaning you choose to act professionally instead. Trust me, you’ll get no credit for kindness – he’ll just see it as meeting his ego stroke needs without any need to meet yours outside of the office. Businesslike all the way, D & C !
Loving Annie’s last blog post..Kitchen Window
Broken hearted – you give me such hope! Your short but sweet post was great! How I cant wait to start feeling that way. Even though I told him goodbye we still seem tethered. When I said there was no hope of gluing this broken relationshp back together he said he couldnt stay friends. But we havent gone NC yet. So we’re in limbo – broken up – he’s angry that he has to suffer based on a choice I made – land.
Thanks Loving Annie… It’s tough. I go back and forth each day thinking no this man is not a nice person… then I remember all the great stuff he did do for me and I think wait maybe I blew it. A friend and I were talking tonight about how when we get involved with people we are not happy anymore. Is that because we choose bad partners or do we just shy away from commitment due to our issues? So then I worry that this man did have it all together, was affectionate, was strong and honest and I just couldn’t handle it. Sure he blew up at the end… but maybe I just finally pushed his last button? I have moments where I feel so sure about what he was, and how I did do a good job, and then other days I see him as this perfect man, who is older, more secure, more self aware and that it was me who was immature and couldn’t handle the intimacy and commitment. I just don’t know. I tell myself either way it was not going to work as I need to work on me, but it’s little consolation if he turns out to be a great catch and I blew it with my own issues.
Thing is… most people around the office are not too fond of him either. They think he is very arrogant and has a nasty temper. So I at least do not see him as loved all around. Other people find him pompous and tough to deal with.
I just wish I had some crystal ball that would tell me that there is nothing I could have done to change this. Given that he was more of a gentleman to me than any other guy I find it hard to label him as an EUM. Can one be affectionate but emotionally detached? I just don’t have all the answers.
Either way… I am not in a good place so it seems. So I need to work on me regardless of what happened with him. Just hard to let go wishing I could have a second chance to at least change my own behaviour.
Judy: Hmmm…
This sounds so similar to my tale; if you are truly looking for advice, and not just an affirmation of your own opinion, all I can say is, “Run the other way.”
My EUM/AC acted in the most appropriate way, called, was kind and considerate, said he understood that his actions were confusing, etc.
He wasn’t over his other woman.
There was a post a while back, from Brad K. that spoke of the ink being dried. He stated that the ink being dried is not even enough. It takes time for people to get over relationships and get healthy emotionally.
Trust the guy. He said, “He is not over his ex.” Even if he thinks and acts, on occasion, like he is. Until he is over her – or over his AC ways – there is no chance for you.
You have not invested enough time to truly be caught up in him and with him. Keep him at arm’s length. Save yourself the turmoil.
Maybe ACs can change, but it won’t happen on your time.
Mine was an Unknowing Assclown — unable to appreciate the nature and consequences of his acts. When I last saw him on 2/21, he wanted to see me more — concerts, movies, the circus (I mean the real one, not my life with him up until that time), etc. When, by 3/17 I had not seen him again, I wrote a fairly honest e-mail indicating that I needed to see him with some regularity to feel the connection, etc. It was not a clingy, frenzied letter — or my honest posse would have told me so. Nonetheless, I did not hear from him for 25 days, at which time he sent me an internet pet joke. Stupid me — I thought that that was the entree to reimbark upon contact, and a hoped-for meeting. I asked to meet for a drink, some hiking, a movie, a sporting event — and he never responded to these specific inquiries, although he continues to send his dumba** jokes, like clockwork, every 11 or so days.
I have embarked upon the NC period, and have not contacted him since his 5/11 birthday. I feel much healthier, and feel like I am breaking free of him, when I do not hear from him. Obviously, he has moved on — either further into his self-exiled depression over major life events (which he would not bring to our table), or is now dating someone else. I can no longer be concerned, as I have come to view him as a selfish little boy (at 38) who thinks of no one except himself.
I am so glad that I found this site, which I continue to access when I am able for ongoing catharsis and release. Reading all of your comparable stories and “case histories” have helped so much that I cannot possible articulate the degree and level of comfort I have received.
Finally, against this backdrop, I cannot be friends with him — if that is the purpose of these intermittent “jokes”. He has hurt me without remorse after breaking promises to see me and keep me in his life. Somewhere, out there, is someone better for me, and I will not stop my search until I find him.
QT,
The choice was all his when he decided to fool around.
Res Judicata,
Why don’t you block his e-mail address, then you will not have your bi-monthly reminder?
NML, you are so right. AC are not friend material. By letting them back into our lives after they cheated, lied or whatever their poor behavior was that led us to break up with them, only signals to them we think very little about ourselves and are willing to let them treat us badly again. If they didn’t respect us when we were in the relationship, except for the beginning honeymoon period when they’re pursuing us, they won’t respect us as friends.
My ex has been calling but I have no interest in starting either a friendship or another relationship with him. It took me a long time to get over him and I’m not going to make the same mistake twice.
The “friend zone” is no place to be with an xEUM.
NAIL —> HEAD.
If a man was an assclown in a relationship, why believe that he’ll be a better friend? 😐
In the last year, I’ve cut off 3 men that I used to talk to (one is an actual ex). Two of them have tried to get me to talk to them in the past WEEK, and the other one has tried in the past TWO WEEKS. Two of them have tried getting to me by calling my (shallow and moronic) “friend” for information about me; she believes that I should go back to being friends with these assclowns. This is the same woman who, after being in an all-around abusive relationship with her ex-assclown for 3.5 years, wasted another FOUR years having sex with him and is STILL friends with the assclown to this very day. 😐
I made my boundaries clear to the assclowns AND to her. I really don’t have time for nonsense. 😐 I’ve made too much progress to turn back.
Aphrogirl
Spot on, just had this myself and was fooled for a second time. I have blocked him from everything, and delete phone messages without listening to them. He said he had bipolar so yes you end up thinking meds need adjusting. Subtle eh.
These blogs really do help. Thank you.
Gayle – thank you for reminding me. That little tidbit gets lost in my head after a few rounds of ‘its up to you if you want to fix this’ and ‘so you’re just going to throw these years away and not even try’ and more of that. Confuses the issue and you feel like somehow you’re the one to blame because you just can’t go through any more disappointments. Things were looking somewhat better when he stopped the contact with the OW for a month or so – but as soon as it started again everything went to pot. His insistence that it was nothing did not help at all – it was the beginning of the end of an already shaky existence.
I was reading somewhere about the difference between being cordial and being friends. I think that’s a good distinction to keep in mind with these guys you still have to see out and about. Cordial seems manageable – caring and concerned is what I need to stay away from because it sucks you back into their lives and their problems which is not good and I assume takes you back to square 1.
QT,
PLease stay away, this guy is unbelievable!! I really can’t believe-maybe I can-that he is putting the demise of the relationship on you. I don’t know which is more outrageous, deflecting the blame or remaining in contact with this woman. A complete slap in face to you!!!
Stay strong!! You’ve made the right decision
QT,
Remember, if he were truly sorry he wouldn’t be blaming you and this woman would have been gone upon discovery.
For me it is a clear dignity preserver NOT to be friends with the EX/EUM/AC whatsoever. If he failed as a partner/lover why should he qualify as a good friend? My ex wants to stay in the picture, but what for? For rubbing in his “happiness†with the other woman? I just go with the flow and wish him well. It seems to suck a tiny little bit. My pleasure! 🙂
Let him wonder and feel how it is to have met a woman who respects herself, sets boundaries and puts her needs FIRST. He had his chance – and he spoilt it. Game over.
I think it is really important for us women to understand that we have to be very, very selective. It is nature’s way to make sure and let US define our standards to men. That’s really powerful. If they don’t live up to that, they can’t have a self-respecting, quality woman. And it also makes sure, that we put our energies into that goal too: e.g. self-confidence which really draws men toward us.
Well, to set the right tone what cool phrases come to mind in the sense of “dignity preservers� e.g. if he asks me to be friends a possible answer might be: “Considering the past I can’t see any basis for a friendship. Best wishes.†And period. Or “I don’t believe in second chances, let alone third, fourth ones.†And period. (I hope I could make myself understood, English is not my mother tongue.)
I’d like to collect more of such cool statements. Are you in on it? Any suggestions? 🙂
Dazed……what really worked for me was thinking back to a healthy relationship I had. What it felt like to be in love and to be loved back in a reciprocal way. Not me wrapping my life around his and doing most of the giving. A real loving relationship requires two people committed to each other. Not one person doing all the work or one person on the receiving end of weird and disrespectful behavior. Relationships are complicated and nobody is perfect but you really have to set your bar high and not allow anyone to treat you badly. I allowed a man to walk all over me and called it love. Even though he could be very charming especially the first year, in the end he betrayed me and behaved in ways that told me he didn’t really love me, at least not the way I want to be loved. You have to believe that you’re worth more then what these men have to give, it really is all about self worth and what you believe about yourself. For me that was my way out of that dark place I was in after we broke up. It does get better.
Loving Annie………great post and right on point. You said everything I wanted to say.
Remaining friends with an assclown can have bad affects on other people, not just you. Your “friendship” is seen as a stamp of approval by your real friends and associates. I stayed “friends” with an assclown who I knew had no conscience, and not only did he burn at least two of my friends financially, but he out and out stole from another friend. Then, to top it off, he groped another friend as she laid passed out on her own sofa. After that, we all joined together and banished him, but I will always feel responsible for having introduced this con artist into my circle of friends.
Ladies
if a man treats you poorly then under no circumstances is he a “friend.” He has no respect for you and by allowing him to continue to be in your life, you are not showing enough respect for yourself.
Trust me, we pull the friends card to make US look better, not to make you feel better.
The EUM/AC I just started NC with was always going on about how he was still friends with all his ex’s. At Christmas, he had me on the phone while he was driving to an ex’s to drop off a card and some Starbuck’s gift cards for her daughters. I remarked that I thought it was odd that he was focusing so much on this “ex”. He acted like he didn’t want to be doing it, but wanted to stay “friends’ with this woman. He actually prided himself that he was able to stay friends with all these women. Which is amazing, this harem he believes he has…he has a daughter who hasn’t spoken to him in nearly 2 years, another who makes plans to do things without consulting him. But he wants all these pushy/pully relationships to continue.
So when it came to me wanting more, the first thing out of his friggin mouth was, “Can’t we be friends?” I said no, I didn’t think it would be fair to any potential bf’s to have him around while I still had strong feelings for him. Eventually, after the break-up, I found myself back with him. This time, I was firmly in the friend camp TO HIM, but he kept telling me that he loved me, he had strong feelings for me, he cared so much about me.
I love, love, love my girlfriends. I’d kill for some of them. But I don’t tell them I love them, we are meant to be together, we are so good together and then treat them like poo-poo. This clown, after going away for the weekend, YET AGAIN, no communication for days, sent me an email, after I said “Good bye(riddence)” saying that he “valued our connection” and he wished he “could continue to give to me”. ALL BS.
You CAN’T be friends with these guys because they can’t be friends with ANYONE. The more I got to know AC, the more I realized that his “friendships” were quite tenuous…in other words, they weren’t as strong and solid as he liked to believe. Many of his “friends” were more what I would call acquaintences. I think he is more tolerated than adored. Very sad for him
Myalmost… a great response. I have not had a healthy loving relationship which is my problem. So when this guy came along and did all these things like call all the time, I didn’t find myself chasing him around, he wanted to see me constantly, he went away on vacation and called me every day while away to say he missed me… I look back and think “what was I complaining about?” He didn’t cheat, lie, disappear like all these other stories. He would go out with his buddies and call me while with them to check in for goodness sakes!
He always wanted me there… but just kind of to be there like a trophy almost. His ex was a server and his idea of hanging out with her was to go drink with his friends every night at the bar she worked at. I am not sure that this isn’t an element of control still… having you around all the time and doing what they want to be doing. Even on Friday nights… we would have dinner or get a bottle of wine… he had to invite his friend along all the time as if my company was not enough.
So thanks for reminding me that someone can be nice. I just read all these posts and thought jeez he didn’t jerk me around like some of these men have done so then I thought maybe he’s not all that bad.
But that doesn’t mean that he didn’t still talk down to me, not offer emotional support, refuse to meet my friends on several occasions.
Exactly, Mike!
Can you stay friends?
Well I think friends is the wrong word if you’ve been treated badly and they’ve said and done things that have hurt you – which is not an accident – I don’t believe that anyone ‘accidentally’ knows exactly what to say to hit your weak spots or ‘accidentally’ screws someone else.
If you have to see them on a regular basis and it feels artificial to ignore them completely then I agree that cordial sends a powerful message too. Where I live it would be totally bizarre to ignore someone who you know, or even someone you don’t know if they say hello, which everyone does here. The big difference is that the brief ‘hello’ then walking on says that you are not going to engage again.
After saying this I am hardly a great example to follow. I stayed away from the AC for 18 months, then met as ‘friends’ so I thought. I’d done a lot of work on my problems, loads of therapy etc. so thought I was safe.I can’t quite leave him alone.
Dazed I agree with that thing about them wanting a trophy. Shows their ‘friends’ that someone somewhere adores them, which of course is what they really want. Someone whom they can control and manipulate but who appears like a trophy on the outside.
My AC told me recently that I am hard on the inside but seem soft on the outside. Believe me before I met him and ended up with years of therapy the reverse was true. Like
Oops sorry, hit the wrong button!
Was going to say that like many here, we are strong and independent on the outside which is what is attractive to the empty, spineless ones that EUM’s tend to be, but have problems with our self respect which allows them to play their tricks to break us down.
So now I am happy that the AC thinks I am hard inside – certainly it’s true where he is concerned thanks to blogs like this and the therapy.
Next step for most of us has to be to learn to recognise good potential and walk away from the AC and all other no hopers.
sadthing’s last blog post..Can you stay friends with Mr Unavailable’s & Assclowns after you break up?- Part One
My xEUM was someone who “Appeared” to have really really great qualities. He certainly talked and said all the right things. He even started off with enough consistency to make you believe all the things that he was saying were going to be backed up with “actions”. If you guys were to meet him at first you would really think “I” was the crazy one!! LOL Then, as time passed, all of a sudden he wouldn’t come through on things that he said and when confronted about it… he would never take responsibility and simply have an “excuse” for not coming through. This was all so confusing because he would go back and forth making you think that oh maybe he was just having a bad day, week, month etc…. until enough time had passed and you were able to figure out that this was his pattern. Now grant it… he was someone that was already living with someone so besides that having been enough of a red flag to tell me that it was not a good idea, I was just not that savvy to tell myself that i was about to just waste my time! Needless to say, I hung on to those times when he showed those “good qualities” so tight because had he just fixed this part of himself…….he was literally everything i would have wanted! Its hard to see him every day and remind myself that he is not the person that I “think”, “wish” or “want” him to be. I have to fight with myself not to go there and remind myself of the person that he was when he was with me. Now yes i got into this messy situation myself but i got in it because of all the promises, and the pursuing and the assurances (what i thought at the time) that this man was not happy at home and i fell into the “poor me” belief. I thought that he just needed the right kind of love, the right kind of woman (me of course) to make him happy, and how unfortunate his situation was and what we were going to do to help him! NOT!!!!!! Now fast forward to where I am now only 6months later, NC and have learned a tremendous amount from this site. I contemplate whether or not we should be more amicable because believe it or not, he is so charming that at any moment… he tries to make me believe that he can be a good “friend” with “good” qualities but then I realize that this is his M.O. He comes by my office (we work together) and tries to make me believe that oh he was watching out for me by letting me in on some information about one of my jobs. Or by stopping me and saying: Hey, I noticed you’r headlight is out on your car… let me know and i can help you get it fixed. And then he will even proceed to call me a few days later and say: Listen, I talked to my friend and your headlight would only cost you this much, let me know and I’ll fix it for you (yeah right!). Now under normal circumstances, I would say: Well this guy is really nice, he seems to be sincere and genuine and he seems to be so “caring”. Believe me, there are times when I think I am the one who is crazy and bitter and just plain “MEAN” This is the hard part, because this isnt your “normal” guy and so therefore, this isnt your “normal” circumstance. Do I sometimes WANT to believe that he is this caring and attentive to my needs? Sure…….but I know darn well that he is on really GREAT Behaviour when its time to reel me in, but that its only a matter of time before down the road, this changes and like any other friend, you expect them to come through on their “offers of help” and he is nowhere to be found!!! I know when I was in the relationship with him, he would do this. And so I would take him up on it and be like: Sure! Great… yeah please help me with the headlight etc… and then…..uhm……. nothing would happen!!!?? And i would be completely stumped and then it was “me” chasing him around about when the headlight was going to get fixed when he was the one who kept offering in the first place!!!!!!! Talk about twisting things around! INSANITY I tell you!!! These men are just so bizarre!!! I still dont get it, I just dont understand.
I WISH that I could move him into my “friendship” category, I really do… but he is toxic and he would never come through for me as a friend. I am cordial and polite and professional but I no longer pay attention to his “attempts” at trying to be my friend (or whatever you want to call what he is doing). I seriously think like Aphrogirl said once: He is just trying to make himself look good. “Look at me, Im being so nice to you,,, Im asking you about your headlight” or “Im on top of your project because I truly care”. See how manipulative these men can be? And if you aren’t privy to what these men are up to– its really easy to fall for their “ACT”. This is why at times I question myself and I say hmmmm…. could he really be “trying” to be nice to me? Could he really be “trying” to be my friend and im the one being so insensitive and cruel and mean about the whole thing? Well you know what, I dont know. I dont know whether or not he would come through on anything and I dont know what is “reason” is for doing any of this but it certainly gets me thinking sometimes and gets me trying to “figure” him out all over again. I certainly dont care to be there anymore and so I realize that being his “friend” at the moment is just not possible. And I realize that because Im even putting this much thought into it means that Im still not 100% emotionally detached from him. I hope that soon real soon I can come back and say he is completely out of my system, for now… I have to stay as far away as possible for my own well being and friendship just seems to be out of the question.
Dazed…..I understand about dissecting his behavior to see if they fit in the AC category. The bottom line is most men can manage to be nice some of the time. The first year of my relationship was wonderful, we planned to get married, we did everything together. But when i look back on it now it was always about him. His needs, his problems, his life. I think a good many of these men are either narcissists or have narcissistic tendencies. So even when they’re being “nice”, you still feel marginalized. It’s easy to look back and re-write history. I know I’ve done it. I made my ex into a saint after the breakup because I didn’t want to admit that I had just wasted two years of my life on a EUM relationship. After the smoke cleared and I started to see him for who he really was, not some trumped up fantasy person, I realized that he was selfish and self centered and that I had allowed him to dial down my expectations as the relationship progressed. At the end I had just grown weary of crying all the time and being miserable.
So yes, they can be sweet and charming but that doesn’t take much effort. Actually it’s one of the characteristics of a narcissistic personality. It’s the way they reel you in. Then after they have you hooked, their other less appealing side shows itself. In the first year of my relationship he rarely missed a day of calling me or contacting me.. We were inseparable but then he started to change because he was cheating. I noticed it immediately but my heart wouldn’t listen to my head. When I finally ended it I was an emotional wreck. It’s hard to remember a time when I felt as bad as I did then.
You must set boundaries in your relationships and if a man continually crosses them, no matter how great he may be at other times, the only thing to do is walk. Life is too short to put up with that. If you have to ponder and wonder over a man and whether he’s worth it, he’s probably not.
The more stories I hear, the more I think that some guys ( and some women, but less of us) just come unhinged when they experience strong emotions, and their method of coping is to get those emotions out of themselves however they can. And they try all sorts of methods of avoidance and evasion. Cheating, lying, disappearing.. they do whatever dumb thing they can to avoid actually experiencing those emotions.
I rarely watch TV, but I often stop at a friends place, whose TV is always on and have caught the show two and a half men several times. In case you don’t know it the ” hero”, ( and yes, many men do consider him a hero), is a good looking, well off master of the glib … pick em up, sleep with em/ get rid of em. Then again, ala more hollywood, it is rare when he meets a woman who does not fall for or put up with his BS, initially at least.
What was interesting is a rerun I saw the other night where he came completely unhinged when he met something of a female version of himself, a gorgeous woman who only wanted him for sex, made no bones about it, saw nothing wrong with it, sweetly asked him to leave as soon as it was over, ( she had to get up early for a meeting) told him not to call her, she’d call him, and then she did call only when she wanted sex.
It was really interesting, the more she did this to him, he got more and more nutty, realizing he was not in control AND she did not really care much about him. Bottom line is he could not handle his emotions, his lack of control in their encounters, her rejection of him as a person, and you also could see he was so damn confused he did not know how he felt. Nor did he figure it out and tell her off, but instead he goofily tried to “end it” by trying to beat her first at indifference, which he was not exactly successful at.
She was in control for that part too, and did not care a bit about how he felt, so she was only annoyed when she realized she was not going to get the sex. It was pretty weird how perfectly the roles were reversed and the show was really well done. If he had been a mature man he would have told her how he felt, or got angry and broke it off, but instead he had no depth of feeling and played it like a game he would not lose.
So, think my point is…some people are ill equipped to handle emotions with intelligence and grace, and the emotions do crop up in these people, but then they do all manner of stupid stuff to try to manage/ get rid of them so they feel in control. And, by distancing themselves from emotion, they lose the opportunity to learn, grow and mature by honestly evaluating those emotions.
Some guys are way worse than others when it comes to taking a hard look at what is going on. I bet many exes who want to be friends fall into this category. But, be it a relative, a friend, lover, or ex, who does not communicate maturely, you are still dealing with someone emotionally challenged, and not sharp enough to know to proceed/ work on it.
I see now that it is so important to always pay attention that your self confidence is well detached from them and their issues.
Oh I have one more thing to add, since I don’t want to sound like some angel here.
The game playing was one the reason I was not willing to stay
“friends”. I noticed that his wishy washy game playing brought up a competitive spirit in me that I had never experienced. I found I would engage in odd volatile or distancing reactiions, and after acting like this I was kind of surprised at my less than mature behavior.
Big diff between us though, is I would then take a hard look at me and my less than stellar behavior and try to talk with him about the odd dynamic we shared.
But he could not really go there, and was unwilling or unable to do the work of friendship. Finally, when something rather serious happened it got clear to me that I was not willing to engage in the one sided, shallow and competitive game thing anymore.
I am grateful that this website introduced me to NC, it was the dose of rational thought I was missing
I don’t have time to read all the replies just yet..
But from the article I would like to add nor can you disappear from their lives with no contact inplace but in the back of your mind you are hoping he will miss you enough to call you and want you back in some capacity .. the capacity he will want you back in is still on his terms.. all of his relationships are on his terms.
I was stupidly thinking and thankfully I have returned to my senses of seeing exEUM tomorrow in a friendship capacity this is in spite of all the time I did invest trying to be his friend and him just shoving in my face about how much he didn’t want to be a friend.. thankfully I have read this article remembered the painful lessons learnt and also read that if he likes you he will match his words with his actions something exEUM could not do !!! So tomorrow I shall leave him be and go on with my business.. PHEW thank you for this timely reminder !!!!
Aphrogirl… just a fantastic post. My mind always gets going at night thinking too much and I just read this and it made me think ya… that’s just it. Emotionally challenged is a great way of putting it. Because it allows for space, mistakes, that these men can be good and then treat you badly. It’s not you, it’s not some mystery, they just struggle to cope with their emotions. And I think as women we rarely understand this. There was an article in the paper the other day about a study being conducted on how men and women literally think and process information differently. As a result communication often fails. If you are dealing with someone who is emotionally challenged in addition to this… well needless to say.
Thanks you just summed things up nicely for me as I am battling between the Jekyl and Hyde I dealt with. But when you put it so simplyl that they cannot process their emotions well, it just made sense.
Myalmost… thank you for taking the time to tell me your story and to provide me with that comfort. Some days I think I am crazy… It’s really nice for you to share, considering it brings back sad memories for you.
I am very sorry you were cheated on… I hope you have come to a place where you know what had nothing to do with you and that is a sign of someone else being insecure and needing to meet their own needs.
You are very kind.
i commend NML on this article and also handling the issue as she did. I think she probably thinks the same way i do.. “are you kidding me”.. why would you want these pieces of sht as friends.. i agree, you are hoping for something else, although many may not admit it.. 6months, 1 year, 2 years down the line.. i still think it’s bs.. it’s not about being bitter it ‘s about moving on and not revisiting that part of your life again.. Who wants them as friends, lovers, or anything else.. They are all self absorbed losers.. i’d rather have enemies.. at least you know what you’re getting and there is no bs..
good luck..
My short answer is “no” you can’t stay friends with an assclown ex.
I used to think I could with my assclown but now that I have had about 4.5 months of no contact – and am now dating a very nice guy – I see no reason.
My longer answer – The reason is – the guy had no redeeming qualities. Plus – he treated me so badly. And also – I let him treat me badly. To be friends with him would just remind me of a time in my life when I didn’t respect, love and honor myself enough.
He sent me an email the other day. I didn’t open it but I saw the header. It just said “Hi Ashley, how are you?”. I deleted it. No response. Believe it or not I was slightly tempted to respond and felt a flash of warm nostalgia. But, I did not respond and now – the feeling of warm nostalgia is gone and has been replaced by relief and happiness – that he is not in my life in any shape or form.
This is also the reason why you have those couples that break-up and get back together continuously. Once you make the relationship sexual, there’s no going back to simple “friendship.”
Tiffany @ Engagement 101’s last blog post..Vegas 2009: Photo slideshow!
Dazed….thanks for the nice comments. Just wanted to share a little of my experience with you for a different perspective. The thing that amazed me the most is how quickly these men change once they have you. It seemed like night and day to me. I’m sure there were many red flags I missed but being in love does make you blind. As soon as he started disappearing and acting different and disrespectful, I should have dumped him. Instead I put up with it and analyzed everything he did to try and find answers. The thing is there are no answers. They’re just assclowns that will push as far as they think you will let them.
Friendship with them is a toxic thing to do yourself because it tells them that you are a fallback girl that they can use for an ego stroke or sex or whatever they want, when they want it.
One last thing, my x had a few female “friends” and he would randomly contact them. He was not a good friend and you could tell one of them had a crush on him. He would be especially evasive to her and string her along, not contacting her for months. I felt sorry for her and wondered if she realized that he was using her. Little did I realize I would be in the same boat one day.
So I’ll never go there. I’ve moved on with my life and am focusing on me. Good luck.
Thank you for all the wonderful advice NML! I think I would still be chasing my EUM if not for this website. I ignored many redflags and dated my AC for 9 months until he ended it. He said that he wasn’t interested in seeing other people, but couldn’t be in a relationship right now. And because I was living in la la land I made excuses for him and decided he just needed some time. I wanted to find some way to stay in his life, and decided to try the friends route, or exactly as you describe be the fallback girl. His first response to my friend request was ‘Do friends have sex’? Ugh. I should have closed the door at that point, but I kept chasing. We exchanged some friendly im’s for a couple weeks, I was almost always the one to initiate them. Then one night he got locked out of his apartment, and I still had his spare set of keys. He asked if he could come by to pick them up, and I said that would be fine. Then he called and asked if I just wanted to come over and meet him at his apartment instead…translation have sex. It was late and I knew that was what would happen, and we wouldn’t have a real conversation about our issues, so I said I didn’t think that was a good idea he should just stop by and pick them up. So he did and he suggested then that we go out for a drink in two weeks so we could talk. The day he picked goes by and he doesn’t even acknowledge it. Another opportunity where I should have walked away and didn’t. Instead I contacted him again and set up a new time to meet. We met for dinner and I had a good time even though he avoided talking about any serious issues like his divorce (he had been separated for 5 years, but was only now finalizing the divorce, one of the red flags I ignored), status of our relationship, or any of the things I thought we were meeting to talk about. All my feelings for him come rushing back anyway, and we end up back at his place and have sex. The next day I’m still on my high and contact him saying it was good to see him, and he comments on the weather! This was my breaking point. I’m thinking we’re getting back together, and he is thinking about the weather. I’ve been NC since that day, about 6 weeks now, and I’m starting to feel better. Whenever I start to relapse back into fantasy land I read these articles and comments and remind myself of the poor behavior. I only wish I had found it a few months earlier. Thank you for helping me to be a stronger, healthier person!
Mike
Thank you for putting it so plainly for us all.
Arlena
Questions for the AC who contacts you intermittently:
“What is this – an emotional booty call?”
“Gee, you must be short of friends if you’re calling me.”
@ Tiffany,
Ironically, I think that you can go back to being friends. But I think you would both have to be well adjusted, honorable, honest, and clear-headed. And there couldn’t have been much pain when together or breaking up.
The problem is, if you were both competent and compassionate enough to pull off being friends, again – you would almost never have dropped the relationship!
The reality is that shoes don’t stretch, and men don’t change. If he wasn’t material for the long haul, then keeping in contact with him will keep you bound in the “old you” that attracted and accepted that type of assclown in the first place. And holding on to that negative self image and ways of thinking will *not* lead to a happier life.
@ Arlena,
Something about your message bothers me. I agree that lack of pride and confidence on ourselves is a horrible problem, and leads to tragedy. But I am not sure that pride is actually a healthy goal.
When you say we need to be “very, very selective”, I get the sense that you mean taking a list, and doing an intense interrogation of any guy you consider dating.
What concerns me, is I think there are certain values and characteristics that easily separate out those that want to share a life with you, and build a home. Honesty, respect, honor, discipline (the will to complete a task), and compassion come to mind. Easily intimate, fixation on body attributes or physical beauty seem like obvious “Run Away!!!” signals – including anyone attracted by makeup or other fashion gimmicks. If his eyes light up when he sees you sweaty and grungy, maybe right from the garden – that is a good thing.
What it comes down to, is what you consider the reason for picking someone to share your time and maybe your sheets. If you are thinking that taking on a guy should mean your last new companion for all the dates in your life – that is what I call perpetual dating. And I don’t see many alternatives between that and . . . building a home, forming a family (children or not). For the most part, picking the wrong guy for either goal – home or dating – is a disaster. Because what makes a guy good for one makes him unsuitable for the other. Few people make a happy transition from dating long term, to actually sharing their lives with a life-mate.
You shouldn’t have to be very, very selective. Start with looking for a good man interested in making a home for you to share with him, and don’t let the others distract you from your goal.
Assume you will be changing to adapt to whomever you pick. And, please, do pick someone that is trainable, that responds appropriately when a need for change arises. What you need to be careful of, is that you pick someone that will only need you to change for the better: Disciplined; Honest; Respectful; Frugal; Compassionate; and Joyful.
Don’t confuse humor with joy – humor cannot exist without pain or humiliation, and doesn’t make one a better person. Telliing jokes, like gossip, can, on rare occasions, express a fact or instruct one. Usually, though, a joke belittles someone. A jokester is like a gossip – they seem to entertain, but hurt those around them.
Luck!
Brad K.’s last blog post..BR: Commitment, a perspective
Thanks NML for another great and timely post. I attempted to be friends with the ex-AC but it did not work at all. I thought that with 9 months of NC, it would have been ok, but it wasn’t and he had not changed at all. Same friends who are UE and who are cheaters, drug abusers, schemers and generally not good people. What did I see in him?? Ok, he did change a little, during MY relationship with him, he talked about his ex-wife and the mother of his child like she was a beast from H^ll and he was the angel who did nothing wrong, all her. I should have ran when he told me that he took “anger management” classes. I asked him at the time if the courts ordered that for him and he told me no but never told me why he took them (Big red flag). Believe me, I now know why. His temper is frightening.
The ex-AC speaks of his ex-wife like she is Mother Theresa,now. They go to lunch and she pays, they go out of town and she goes along and more than likely pays and she invited him to go to Puerto Rico with her and his child and of course she is paying the tab for that too. He attends church with her too but denied it. I guess since he is unemployed and she is working…..he wants to be in her life because of the money.
Like some of the other threads, I initated contact after the first “lets be friends” speech. I was practicing forgiveness. But he never reached out to me unless he was returning a phone call. I also noticed that he started talking about my body parts and how “hot” I looked, translation “I want sex”. He contacted me back in March on my B-day by sending an email with his contact number and email address. I didn’t contact him. I met him accidentially at the unemployment office. So now, I cut him off and I am not even attracted to him physically anymore and now I am back to NC. Like NML said they make poor partners and poor friends. Lesson learned.
Peace
Myalmostlover… see my ex didn’t do any of those things and it’s what causes me to wonder if I have misinterpreted him and we simply were not a good match.
He never disappeared, was calling me nearly every day right until we broke up… The only “evidence” I have of him not being emotionally committed was that he refused to meet my friends, and then lost his temper so badly one day and told me he’d been miserable for months. That is not entirely stable.
He did play passive aggressive where he would cancel out at the last minute on plans with my friends, or would avoid committing to anything too long term and he did start acting differently I guess you could say… he just seemed moody and grumpy all the time. But is that just the sign of someone who’s relationship is not working?
I have found myself alone this weekend and reliving it all once again, going over every detail and thinking crap, some great woman is going to get this man who did put himself out to take me to get groceries, who was really cuddly, who always invited me along to meet his friends, and who never missed a phone call. I was insecure a lot, I would get in to arguments with him over small things… I keep thinking “was it me?” or was I legitmately having issues with this person because of their cold behaviour to me.
I am so confused and have come to a point where I do not know what was what anymore… other than he left and it’s over. But I guess when I keep soul searching and reading… emotionally unavailable does not have some label like “must cheat and disappear” I need to trust my own gut about how this person treated me, and how I felt frustrated with him.
I am beating a dead horse and simply need to focus on me at this point.
Dazed –
Your (possible) AC sounds so much like mine! Is yours a Cancer by any chance? Mine is and was very moody, hated to socialize (unless on his terms), would make such a stink about getting together with friends that it was hardly worth it. Mine called constantly, very affectionate, we spent all our time together, everyone hated us for being ‘that couple’ (I know – there might be some red flags with this overly togetherness type of behavior too – probably starting with co- and ending with dependant, but I think we were both guilty of that).
The distinction however, is that mine cheated on me and now wants me back. It doesnt sound like you had any indication that yours cheated. I do wonder why he wouldn’t or couldn’t just talk to you and tell you when/why he was so miserable? I think sometimes when men do start looking for a way out they become so crabby and grouchy and they just constantly look for things that are wrong with the relationship so they feel ok about ditching it without really doing the work to save it. That’s certainly their perogative but it seems for long term – love relationships – some effort would be nice before just walking away. Everyone is different though I guess but dont you want a guy who will at least make an effort to express himself a little before exploding at you and leaving? That just seems so childish.
I think bottom line is that YOU need to start thinking and accepting that he was not meeting YOUR needs. No matter what good things he did, and in the end, he had a lot of bad qualities that you put up with probably only because of your insecurities. It doesnt sound like he was going to change anytime soon so your choice was to be kind of miserable, and remain feeling insecure while being with him, for whatever reason (maybe because of his behavior, maybe because of your past, or maybe a combination), or to move on. You will find someone else who will meet those needs and you’ll feel so wonderful being treated with respect and by someone who can communicate to you how he’s feeling, that you won’t ever look back and wonder if this guy was the one that got away.
Thanks QT that is helpful to hear that someone else did have a “nice” guy but who still displayed less than appealing qualities. Mostly it was at work where we had our battles and I could not leave it behind. He didn’t seem to listen to me… He considers himself smarter than me, he is extremely bright, but struggles in other areas where I excel. It was the talking down to me all the time, kind of lecturing me, that drove me insane.
He is a very critical, sort of negative person. I really remember just feeling like I finally stopped talking at one point I just got so fed up. I guess I didn’t notice it but I was always waiting around finally for him to suggest we do something, for him to be in a good mood, for him to want to talk and every time I would cheer up that he still seemed in to things… and then he would be tired and not feel like hanging out. He said I always made him feel guilty when he wanted alone time… but it was always when I finally suggested we get out of the house and go do something. When he finally did decide to go out and do something fun, it was always with a buddy, or when I went out of town. I would suggest a movie and he would say no… and then go see a movie with a friend on a night I made plans.
I just find the behaviour difficult to assess given that he seemed very in to having me around or having my input in big life decisions… but then didn’t want any part of my family or friends. I chalked it up to him wanting a g/f, someone there, but not a partner. This does not strike me as someone who is willing to compromise at all. I also realize that I thought he was “thoughtful” as he would run plans by me but it was always after they were made and then he would ask “does that work for you” but I don’t think it would have made a difference if it didn’t. He was going to do what he wanted to do when he wanted to do it.
The hard part is what you noted about him not communicating any of his unhappiness to me. He just kept going until he saw an out (he changed jobs so we did not have to see each other daily anymore)… I just felt so hurt that he gave up and didn’t see enough good in the relationship to say this is not working but I really care and want to work on this. And when I suggested that… he just flat out said no.
I am trying not to take that personally and say that his not wanting to put any effort in to this is generally how he lives his life… because it might involve compromise, looking at this own faults, or having to meet the needs of another person. I know one of his exes a bit and know that things ended with her because he similarly refused to open but, which he says is a result of her being the wrong woman. It’s always another person’s fault.
But thanks for reminding me that it is about MY needs and what this person was not doing for me. And that I do not have to accept scraps of good behaviour like simply thinking to call and say you miss me. He told me I was too demanding so sometimes I worry that I set my expectations too high about what a partner should offer you in terms of emotional support.
I really appreciate you taking the time QT to weigh in on this. I am sorry to hear about your ex. I hope things work out in a way that makes you happiest.
dazedandconfused: If I understood your 11:04 post correctly – you wrote that he didn’t want to work on the relationship.
As hard as that may be for you to hear, whether he is EUM, EUM/AC, or a just a guy who doesn’t want to see you anymore. It sounds as if he was clear that he doesn’t want to see you.
Did I read/interpret that correctly?
If so, I’m going to give you a small bit of advice: Take him at his word, cry your heart out, write in your journal until you can’t write anymore, call your mom, call your friends, call whomever, but immediately go NC with him and stay there.
It hurts like hell to not have someone return the love you are offering, but if he was clear, he really did you a favor. Really. Grieve the relationship so that you can move on.
If he wasn’t clear that he didn’t want to see you, but his actions indicate that he really doesn’t want to, remember that the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior.
I hope that I provided some questions for you to ask yourself so that you can focus on you rather than what he did.
Just when I thought it was safe to go into the water…ol’ (or is that young?) crazy pants dropped me an e-mail concerning my favorite sports team. I am not on a list of multiple contacts this time — it just went to me. I have had it for 34 hours, and have not responded, so I have made substantial NC progress! Now, the pattern seems to be him sending me, solely, an e-mail every month around the 11th or 12th of the month. I tried my blocking feature, but it does not seem to work. I have read that if you ignore them, they will escalate the contact. I now want to see if this actually comes to fruition. Is he testing the waters by sticking in one toe? Does his computer know that my computer spends a lot of time on this site trying to super-analyze his motive and intent? Has his former praise (“wow the way you write is incredible.”) now the albatross around his unknowing neck? Geez, I wish this person was normal!
Dazed,
Angelina just wrote,
” As hard as that may be for you to hear, whether he is EUM, EUM/AC, or a just a guy who doesn’t want to see you anymore. It sounds as if he was clear that he doesn’t want to see you. ”
From what I have read I just want to reassure you that he is an EUM/AC, not ” just a guy who does not want to see you anymore” and the reason I say that is because many of us are her because of the complete mindf**ck that ambivalent guys do to us when they finally flake. Yours did it with a flip out involving rage and anger, as did mine. You also just wrote about all the red flags you overlooked, leading up to that point.
It is always good to question and evaluate the impact of our own actions when we encounter trouble in relationships. And, there is nothing wrong with someone telling us ” This is not really working,” and then offering a reasonable, considerate explanation of why.
But, there is everything wrong with them doing a complete 180 and raging and/ or negating all that we have been through and then the next day acting like they never said anything. You and I have experienced that behavior, and it is nothing but truly irrational.
The betrayal of maintaining solid ground is a violation of trust, and that is what we are recovering from; that someone we trusted turned out to be a flake, a poseur, an imposter…and we fell for it.
Angelina is right…take him at his word, for it is an accurate side of him, The other side of him, the one that wanted to offer love in the only way he can – companionship on his terms – is probably an accurate side of him too. And therein lies the dilemma, he is flaky, there is no solid ground, and that leads to confusion and trouble. In my book, the only sane answer to one who will not work to retain stability is NC.
If you have done NC, are over the addiction phase, and you are a book reader, I have dug out my copy of the book ‘ Coming Apart” by Daphne Rose Kingma, which is helping me a lot. It’s like a roadmap for negotiating your way through the end of a relationship.
I am so grateful I found this site that gave the kick in the pants I needed to do NC.
Lordy Rez
just think, women of yore did not have to deal with email or texts
sporadic stupid email contact, and forwarded jokes were the bane of my existence with the EUM
just remember, is this what you want ? dolty monthly emails about sports teams ?
i bet not, so…repeat after me…..do not respond, do not respond
Res Juducata,
Please try to stop the site checking as this will only prolong your ability to recover. How long have you been broken up?
Res Judicata,
Check your email tool. You may be able to create a “filter” that you can use to 1) mark the email as “read”; and 2) move it to the trash bin. This will happen before you know you have an email.
There is a reason to call it “no contact”. Just look at the 34 hours of your life, tainted by the existence of that email. Wondering and worrying about what he is doing is still binding you to him, still letting him mess about in your life. You really have to find a way to go No Contact – so you never know if he tried to contact or not.
Choosing to close off all possibilities of communications is a position of strength. With your history, you need a period of “safe time”. You don’t need to be strong, to be able to hold back from replying – you need to heal, and prepare for the rest of your life. Letting him flag you down and crossing your mind puts off the time that you are actually free to move on. Don’t think of being strong, choose to leave him in the past, completely. Choose to find yourself, a you that stands on her own and not someone reacting to the bozo’s actions.
This has been such a helpful post NML! I am so looking forward to reading Part 2!
Peace
Hi Everyone:
I know one of the things that really helped me from this site was NML’s constant reference to “crumbs” and us women accepting them. I know for the most part i would always justify one thing in a man over another. I would say things like: He is such a great father, hard worker or but yesterday he called me or text me twice..that must mean he really likes me. I also had a big problem with establishing boudaries and overall had low standards. I know that I had to raise my standards with these men and not be afraid to do it and also learn to value myself more if I ever expected them to do the same (thank you NML for making me see that!!) Anyhow, the following has helped me, and I wanted to share with everyone in hopes it would help others:
Ok- so every time a man approaches me… I seriously think to myself: “What are you serving”??? LOL
If you keep this image in your head every time……. it really helps to be able to say NO and be ok with it.
You should also continue doing this throughout the relationship
Just imagine “your current guy” coming to the table with a tray… and pay attention to what is on it (an excuse, a sincere apology? a night out where he pays? A phone call two days later when he said he would call you that night??” A man who is married with 3 kids telling you that he wants a relationship???
and then ask yourself……….. will you take it?? Is it ok with you? Or does he need to go back to the kitchen and whip something up thats better than that because it just isnt cutting your taste pallet?
This isnt being a bitch or picky– this is making sure that everything that is being brought to the “table” meets YOUR STANDARDS. And only you know what those standards are (which should fall in line with what would make you happy from a man/relationship)
so does it matter if the guy is sweet or charming or says all the right things or did something good a minute ago but isnt consistent with is behaviour the day after?? Or who cares if he is good looking, has a great job or SAYS all the right things but is only serving you “crumbs”?
The guy can “say” many things….but in the end, its what he is actually showing “Serving” you that counts. And at the end of the day…… you cant blame him for serving crumbs, and then you accepting them. Make him go back to the kitchen and get you something BETTER!! And if he doesnt, doesnt that say more about him than YOU??? I mean would you be serving crumbs to your guests, to your family or to a guy that you WANTED??? It means he’s either lazy or not ready or is used to women being ok with mediocre… nothing to do with whether you are pretty or nice or that you werent understanding enough etc….!!!! I say this because that was another thing i did. I would always think that if they werent calling me back or coming back with something better, it had something to do with me personally. This helps me not only with men and relationships but also overall with friends, family, co workers etc…. (not to mention that since I love to eat and go to restaurants, the analogy was great! I know If I was hungry– crumbs would not cut it!)
Well I hope NML doesnt mind me posting this analogy. The imagery really helps me in keeping my standards up and in making sure that i dont accept “crumbs” from anyone, not to mention its a little funny to have this image in my head about the guy and him holding a tray ready to “serve” me. LOL 😉
Karen,
I always enjoy your input. Love the analogy!
I think it is really sad that we do/did not recognize that we deserve so much more from relationships but accept so little from these men. I think it would be wonderful to find a life partner but if I can not I will be be happy and content with what life has to offer.
We must always remember that others do complete us, we complete ourselves.
LOL Karen!! I like.
A little off topic, sorry NML!
When random men hand me a business card when I am out at Target or Wally world and say “call me”, I don’t take the card. Instead, the phrase, “no thanks” comes out of my mouth. I deserve a man who passionately wants me, not the crumbs of a relationship from a business card.
Angelina and Aphrogirl. Thanks for the input… regardless of labelling someone an AC or whatever, this person clearly did not manage the situation well. I have gone no contact in terms of me not calling, texting, emailing etc. I do have to see him at work, but he has approached me on a few occasions. I discuss business only and then go off in my own direction. I actually went out for a break this week and he stood in one corner staring at me, and I simply turned my back in the other direction… I did not go over to him.
Regardless of EUM, AC, whatever the label this person said he does not want to work on a relationship with me. It is painful, and Aphrogirl as you noted it was the painful way in which he could not just say that but had to pick apart the time we spent together and tell me he was actually never happy. You just feel lied to and like the person was dishonest the entire time.
Either way I really appreciate your input. I am doing ok today and really seeing this person for what they are. The only comment that bothers me is that past behaviour is a predictor of future behaviour. I would like to believe he will continue to be the same but that would also imply that I too will continue to be the same… So it’s true I would like to think that what I saw were true colours, but I too made some mistakes that I hope not to repeat again.
Gale:
Thank you and I agree with you 100%. Im in my thirties now and if I only knew then what i know now. But learning to love yourself is a process, how we get there doesnt matter because the minute we do, our whole life changes and we approach relationships so differently and from a healthier place and I know it has been worth it for me if in the end, the relationship that was most successful, was the one I hadd with my “Self”. 🙂
Isabella: HAHA! good one. Maybe NML should have us all post what we each do or our ideas to stay clear of ASSCLOWNS and EUM’s!!
(sorry that we got off topic NML)
Aphrogirl: I looked up that book you mentioned and its really great. Thanks for the suggestion! 😉
We met on the internet, and met after about three weeks. We shared a great ‘net friendship and an immediate in-person connection. As a ‘net dating veteran, this has only happened twice before, so I valued this connection and its related good feelings. Early on, I learned that this boy was carrying alot of baggage: recent separation and divorce, missing out of state children, wife failing to pay mortgage on marital residence, wife moving herself and kids into another man’s home, very sick stepfather, a layoff, followed by a near-immediate new and better job. He has been though it all. I have remained suupportive throughout, but he began drifting in March. When, in previous months, he would meet up with me, he would appreciate the chance to talk about this stuff, laugh, attend movies, and live in our happy moment. I am in a fairly stable period, so I was able to provide comfort or support. Yet, apparently, it wasn’t enough, and the drift continued unabated except for these limited contacts.
In another segment of this site, we acknowledged and agreed that the “dry ink” on the divorce papers is not dispositive unless/until he heals from all of the postmarital turmoil. I understand this, and have allowed him space and time.
I really don’t think that he is dating anyone else, but has become EU due to the foregoing list of fairly serious issues.
In turn, I am in heal mode, and am trying to find other fun outlets (swimming, movies, jewelry-making) while I work on my own personal demons.
Some of the men about whom you write are felony EU, but I cannot necessarily say this about him. I do not ascribe to him the “intentional” mental state, but feel, as I have stated, that he is not currently able to understand the nature and consequences of his actions (inactions?) vis a vis me.
I will not respond to this most recent e-mail. But, overall, his sad situation makes me both vicariously and personally sad.
When he was with me, he would be able to both laugh and sleep — short commodities when he was absent. Why wouldn’t he want that to continue?
Res Judicata,
I am concerned b/c I seem to be reading about his needs in your post, and not yours. I believe you stated that you were ‘supportive’ and that he was appreciative ‘to talk about his stuff, and that he was ‘able to both laugh and sleep’ with you, I wonder what you were receiving as far as support from him? Was it mostly about him and his drama?
Did you two talk about how he had hurt you in the relationship at the end?
On the last night I saw him, he said that he wanted to see me more –movies, concerts, etc. At home, he told me how much he missed watching TV and holding me, as we had been seeing each other sporadically due to the host of issues to which I alluded earlier.
When he left the next morning, that was the last time I saw him. He then lost his job, but found a new one in 9 days. When another 10 days went by and I still had not seen him, I wrote a very heartfelt e-mail explaining how, if we were to have a relationship, I would have to see him with “some (undefined) regularity” — I would have been happy with once every two weeks, in light of his other issues, and the fac that I am pretty busy myself with work, etc. I did tell him that I needed to see him to “feel the connection” and to validate that he felt connected to me.
I did not hear from him again until the first of several e-mail jokes 24 days later.
When he started drifting, I could tell that he was not the kind of man who could easily communicate about his, and his mate’s, needs and desires. He never addressed my comments.
This is a funny postscript: I receive much support and valuable guidance from this site, but when I blogged on another site, apparently visited mostly from happily married women (and I envy them), they basically beat me up for not being supportive of, and understanding, during his extreme time of need.
So, in a similar vein, like these posts, I vacillate between continuing to feel sorry for him, and hurting because of his absence and his apparent inability to sense, or care, how I feel.
Res Judicata,
I’s sorry you were hurt.
Doesn’t seem that this man had much of anything to offer anyone. The comment you made about seeing this man once every two weeks sounds as if your were settling for mere crumbs of a relationship, reading your posts you clearly wanted and needed more, anyone would.
The fact the this man did not have the decency to respond to your note shows that he is a insensitive selfish creep. This is inexcusable. Sorry, my opinion!
I think it is still early and you haven’t reached the anger stage where you see this guy for who he truly is. Please don’t feel sorry for him but remember the pain you have suffered from this individual.
Keep posting, it will accelerate your healing time.
Thank you. I continue to read, post, and persevere.
Karen, that is so funny I had just thought of something so similar, that if the EUM was invited to a putluck, he would bring nothing, and expect everyone to be honored that he showed up; that is the level of giving he thinks a big deal. I am gonnna remember your idea, its awesome, I think one needs every trick in the book to recover and keep away from these various versions of EUM/ AC/ man-lite.
Res, its hard to give up a one way relationship. These relationships are defined by our giving and their taking. When you finally take notice, or need or want something, or you might be tapped out, and then ask them for a bit of something you find they are not willing to give. You then might start to realize they are good for very little giving at all, and you need to take care of you.
But, the strong habits are there, of giving to them, wanting to give to them and not getting in return, and thats why it was hard for me to let go of those old habits.
I hope Res, you are in the earlier stage of NC, for when breaking the addiction I did spend a helluva lot of time thinking about him and his needs, that is the unhealthy part I needed to see and work through.
I could not easliy break years of habits of caring and thinking about him. But I could stop his ability to contact me and continue a one sided friendship, and I could stop contacting him to continue a one sided friendship.
There is no way I can be friends as it was, never again. I am so clear on that.
My personal irony is that I have no kids — but have three dogs, 100 plants, and numerous ex-boyfriends that I have nurtured and supported. In my personal life, I am the epitome of the Virgo Earth Mother.
When we first met, he seemed very warm and giving. The cuddling was indescribable — and the sex was not too shabby, either. I don’t think he had much left in him, at the end of the day, after weathering his other storms.
Aphrogirl, I am, in fact, in the early stages of NC. I sent him birthday greetings on 5/11; he sent me three jokes and the sports update since that time, and I have not responded to any of them. I am glad to read that you have worked through some of your issues surrounding the addiction and your ongoing thoughts of your EUM. With additional time and space, I hope to continue to progress.
Finally, I agree that if invited to a potluck or picnic, at present, he would be the one hoarding food and drink, without having arrived with anything of his own to share. The ants would make a beeline to his corner of the blanket!
Wow – the potluck analogy is a good one. Really good. I can picture that line of thinking from my ex mr. wonderful. I can also picture him thinking that the food everyone else brought sucks and the potluck party in general sucks, even though he contributed nothing at all food wise or conversation wise.
QT,
LOL!!! Sounds like he’s a lot of fun!
I found this site right at the end of December. What I never realized, from reading this site back then, was how much time it might take to really work through the EUM experience. Back In Dec, I am not sure I could have imagined not being his friend. Heck, as I write this it still seems unbelievable.
I have always been a slow learner but once I learn something I usually do well with it and this is proving to be no different. I want to offer encouragement to all struggling and say that hopefully your speed of progress will be greater than mine.
For several years, the EUM relationship was making me feel bad and I knew something had to give. Once I got thinking about NC it took me a month to take a stand. It was a blessed coincidence that the EUM did something unusually shi**ty right about then. After taking a stand, it took another two months for me come round to the point of NC. Heres how that went/ is going….NC was at the end of March.
One month after NC I felt the lessening of the addiction…the addiction to waiting, always waiting for things to be stable, joyful, hopeful, better. There was no specific circumstantial reason things in his life could not be great. So, one month after NC I was aware of the lessening to the addiction, and it felt good, but I also like it was only the very beginning of a journey I had to go on alone.
Two months after NC – the addiction was over, the waiting was over but there was so much confusion, anger, doubt. When the doubt was the worst I just kept rereading the letter I wrote that clearly summed up why his behavior had become unacceptable to me.
It is now almost three months and I have almost broken free of his odd distancing ambivalent depressing neediness taking precedent in my life. His presence is still there, but its’ grip is loosening. I am starting finally to get back to me. I wish i had enough control to accelerate this stage but..I am surprised at how little I can direct any of this.
I expect that next I will work trying to understand why I would have given myself so much trouble by trying to help someone else’s troubles. Maybe my life was just too charmed, :-)) I hope so, because that charmed attitude is what I’d like to go back to.
So, it will be more than six months of my life working though this.
Once I get back there I expect to be a wiser woman and remember that this guy is not willing or capable to be my friend and despite my loving and caring nature that means.. no cards, no calls, no contact.
Hi All
I am new to this site and think it is great but would not mind some advice on a situation. I started going out with a Mr Unavailable – he tried to get intimate with me but never really got there as said a couple of times he has a mad ex (was with a women for 12 years but seperated for 1 year) and issues he needed to sort out, every time we tried to catch up he pushed the sex thing so one day I texted him and said “why don’t you sort out your mad ex and issues and if you are still interested in me call me when done”, he responded saying that he respects my decision and I deserve the best and he is not the best at the moment, but if I am still interested and free when he is ready he will sweep me off my feet as really thinks I am a gorgeous person. Do you think he is being honest or just keeping his options open?
Hmmm..
Funny. taking the analogy of the party. I organized a party for the ex eum… we spoke on the phone, I said, there will some great people there, he said in a very contemtous way..”I don’t care about anyone else”, then heard himself say it and corrected himself..saying ‘sounds good’. The party was an event I organized that lasted three weeks. He smiled at me three times, flirted with every beautiful girl in the room, coverted the main speaker and I didn’t charge him. He ate from everyone and walked in as if he had organized it, he owned it within minutes, How did I feel after so many people came up to me telling me how amazing I was to organize such an event, how they loved me. I felt rejected, afraid and I cried myself to sleep everynignt with sadness that I wasn’t good enough for him, he said nothing to me the whole time. It was horrid. And I will say this. I will never ever ever ever invite any man who does not value me for the person everyone else in that room loved and admired that I am. It was a strange dynamic where 30 people stood on one side of the stage loving me actively and one man stood on the other hating me. It was tough in the middle, I allowed him to ruin an event that I should have enjoyed wholeheartedly, it took two years to organize for gods sake and I did it for him, boy what a disapointment and it made me sick, but I went through with it and through it and I am out the other side. I told him after I wanted no more contact. Did he care?….Naahhhh !!. I want a stage full of love and light so I can sing and dance and be adored and adorable and adore with trusting abandon.
My future wish for myself and all of you!! Freedom!
Oh and once every two weeks is worse than crumbs, it’s abusive and insulting!! Give yourself more not less!!
xx peace and love
Miss Satinne… R-U-N-F-A-S-T and do not look back. I am SO HAPPY you sent that text and did not get caught up in a web. This guy has about 3 – 4 years. Read some of NML’s older posts….starting with “How to Spot an Emotionally Unavailable Man”
Miss Satinee, I agree with Kimba. I just finished a similar situation with someone who was married 14 years; separated for 1; and divorced for 1. There is no way that he was able to undertake another relationship due to ongoing issues with his X, his girls, etc. People caught up in these circumstances barely have enough to get themselves through postmarital trauma. They absolutely cannot immerse themselves in another situation until they take care of their own issues. Find yourself someone more accessible, and I guarantee that you will be happier.
Aphrogirl, I think you are a quick stuy compared to me! I´ve spend more time getting over my EUM than I was with him! But I think that is because I am not so much getting over him as I am getting over my own insecurities and lack of selfworth. I still feel like running back to him when I feel low.
We are working on creating better coping methods than running into the first pair of available arms (even if they are only available for a minute). That takes time. A lot of time in my case.
MIss Satinne
My advice also is to walk and don’t look back. Yes, he could be ready in a few months or years, but also maybe never. If he used the words ” sweep you off your feet” I’d be worried cause I like to keep my feet on the ground. Also the reason for wanting to know you… “because you are gorgeous”…were these his words? I want somebody who appreciates me for who I am, not mainly cause of how gorgeous I may or may not be.
Maybe I am tough but the knight in shining armor/ pretty princess thing always makes me feel like an object, and that makes me think of a self centered guy looking for a shallow relationship, not able to make an emotional commitment, not in touch with much but acquiring the friend/ lover and that makes me think EUM and hoping EUM will turn into emo smart and here we are ad nauseum… I have no desire to go there again.
There are dozens of great posts on this site. Because you were questioning this I’d spend some time here reading, if for no other reason than to get an idea of scenarios you never want to find yourself in, and how to spot them early on.
Good for you to step back when you did and question this.wise woman.
TO: Ms. Satinne, welcome to the site! He’s keeping his options open. Leave him alone and move on. You deserve someone who is available now. Also, any man whom you have just met who is pressuing you for sex so soon in the relationship really only wants sex.
To: Assclown Slayer (aka Karen): loved your analogy and your post. SOOO true! It’s about YOUR standards, not his, and is he meeting them. But more importantly, is he willing to do the WORK to meet them. As NML says, does he have both feet in the relatiinship? Is he willing to work for your affection, love and attention? I don’t mean to say that you play hard to get or string him along like some little puppy dog. But setting your standards and boundaries and standing by them. Demanding that he treat you with consideration and respect because you are…simply because you are. If he is a man of any true character or integrity he will see your worth and truly sweep you off your feet.
Thanks all for your words, makes be realise that I did the right thing by pulling back and will definitely take time reading the articles on this site, so next time I will see the signs even earlier!
I am here for a confession. I had a relapse. After 43 days of NC during which I did not respond to my XEUM’s last e-mails/jokes, I responded. I have been reading a book on communications between mates, wherein forgiveness plays a big role. Sadly, one of my best friends passed away last weekend after an extended sickness. I guess all of this has made me feel sad and vulnerable. I had heard from another former friend today after an 18-month absence from my life. At any rate, I thanked him for thinking of me, and making me smile. He responded in a very heartfelt manner, and recalled my speaking about my friend in the past, and how much she meant to me. He said that he seemed to be doing better. He asked about me and my pups. It was an engaging, satisfying, and again heartfelt conversation.
After all is said and done, I still don’t understand why he is not with me (and YES I have been reading these posts for weeks — I swear I have) if we get along with, and understand, each other this well. When he “dips his toe in the water” like this, is it an issue of him trying to control me, or does he care on some level, but is too clueless to show that on a consistent basis? He was married for a long time; divorced now for 18 months, but has very little dating experience (even if he started dating someone after our separation on or about February).
Finally, why does this all have to be so difficult? If two people care about one another, and the separator goes out of his way to keep in touch with the separatee, shouldn’t this mean that they can put this back together again?
So much for the “safe time” which I was admonished to pursue about a week ago, somewhere above…
Res Judicata,
If two people care about one another they will find a way to be together, they do not send monthly e-mails, they work at repairing the relationship. In his phone call did he talk about a reconciliation and say he wanted a committed relationship with you?
This man is incapable of a relationship and seems to be getting some sort of satisfaction by stringing you along, I mean don’t you want more than this sporadic communication? NML says, this type of communication is solely for an ego stroke, or even better sex w/o the commitment.
Let me ask, when he initially pursued you, did he do it through a group monthly joke e-mail?
Please go back to reading and posting.
No. When we first connected on the internet, we had an immediate connection by way of talking about his daughters, my dogs, his work, my work, our favorite movies, sports teams, etc. When we met, we enjoyed friendship and intimacy — it was perfect, harmonious, and two-way. After about 2 1/2 months, these other family issues arose about which I have written much. Over time, he told me that he was “stressed, felt guilty, was depressed, and crazy” about these difficult situations. I remained supportive, and saw him as frequently as his situation allowed. I feel that by him telling me yesterday that, “things were getting better for him” this was his first entree into telling me that he was feeling better about him — and possibly me and us. I fully understand that these are less than optimal conditions, and will keep other options open. Yet, a small part of me feels that there may be a small glimmer of hope out there. I am not attracted to that many men — I hate to say this — but I feel bored by certain people, and sometimes would rather be with my dogs than on a bad date! I never felt this way with him, even before the drama sucked me in.
Res Judicata,
When a guy tells you he is depressed or crazy – believe him. Always. And run. He is laying the groundwork for never being responsible for or about anything. If you don’t run – you give him permission to misbehave, be irresponsible, and to act with disrespect. As long as you stay, you continue to give permission – he won’t change for you, not real change. He can’t change.
Brad K.’s last blog post..br: Dignity and choosing a partner
I know. My logic (professional) side knows this stuff. My emotional side probably also knows this stuff, but is disregarding it. I can’t say anything more than I have already said on all of these posts in this and other subject matter posts here.
My ex and I broke up about two months ago. I broke up with him, but in reality it was he who dumped me – by passive agressively doing everything possible to make me dump him.
In any case, he fed me all of these bullshit lines. He told me he saw us being “lifelong friends” and that he couldn’t imagine me not being in his life and blah blah blah. Well, I made it clear that if we were ever friends, it was going to be on my terms, when and if I wanted it to happen.
So I took a monthlong hiatus, and then I sent him an e-mail telling him my doubts about the friendship – that I was unsure about being his friend because if he wasn’t honest with me before, how could I count on his honesty in a friendship? And he knows for sure he can’t count on me for sexual favors because I cut that off cold turkey the minute we broke up.
He said we would be lifelong friends – but It turns out that when I wanted to talk to him as a friend – he wasn’t there for my ego validation. The friendship only existed for him when I was there to validate his need for affection. What a &*)*)( jerk.
To be fair, I acted like a total psycho when I broke up with him – I told him to get the (*) out of my life, screamed at him, tortured him with guilt, etc. Part of me feels guilty and part of me feels like he had it coming. I really don’t think screaming at someone is the worst thing you can do – acting like a passive agressive nutjob is much worse. (at least in my opinion).
I’ve been “seeing” this guy for 10 months, he says that I’m “pretty much” his girlfriend when I ask for commitment. I’m a relationship person and I think I just realized that I have low self esteem, when I really thought I loved myself. I can’t believe I let it get this far, I don’t even have his mobile phone number at the moment. He’s an ex con so he’s constantly getting new numbers because he thinks that his phone is tapped. He’s a real idiot. I’ve been thinking of ending it for a while, but couldn’t work up the strength probably because of my low self esteem and thinking that I need his validation because I feel so rejected. I’ve tried to end it before but he didn’t care. Then he cut me off for about three weeks without a word and then came back saying he missed me (he missed something) I felt used, but I had him back and we hugged for while. Anyway.. after reading this though, I really don’t need a dickhead like him. There are a few guys that I know respect me, and say I’m stupid for being with him when I complain, which is all I do. I’m nineteen years old, I can do so much better. I shouldn’t even be in a relationship, I should be living it up with my family and friends. I really needed to wake up, it makes so much more sense to me now. Thank you so much for your wise, brutally honest, but helpful words. I needed to hear it that way! A thousand thank yous! 🙂 🙂 🙂
Sevim,
You don’t mention good friends that are women, or happily married. If you are serious about wanting a safe and happy home – you need to pick a guy you can depend on.
Whether this guy is straight up – or the missing three weeks were a crime spree – doesn’t matter. You aren’t making his life better, and you aren’t enjoying the attempt. That makes him sound unavailable, or at least uninterested.
A good mate-prospect must be trainable. That is, when he recognizes a need to change, he adapts without fuss or bother. Toilet needs cleaned? He grabs a brush. You are unhappy – his plans change to care for you. You dare not manipulate your partner – that is going to boomerang and injure lots of people. But someone that won’t adapt, that won’t consider your needs, that won’t change when needed – they might as well be a stuffed doll left out on the sidewalk for all the good they will be, in the long run.
I imagine there are any number of ex cons that have turned their lives around. But being an ex con is surely a strong signal that he has missed a lot of chances to change for the better.
Look for someone that respects themselves and you, that is honest in all things, honorable and loyal, and their actions agree with what they say – and always give the actions, deceits, inactions, more importance than their words. You are looking for a mate and co-parent, not a perpetual dater.
Luck.
Brad K.’s last blog post..br: Dignity and choosing a partner
Brad K, that comment was brilliant! I nodded and nodded and nodded again! The stuffed doll para was class – thank you!
I’ve been broken up with the EUM for the past 4 months and initially wanted to friends. But the more I think of how he treated me the more I realise that he is not friend material. Why would I want to be friends with someone who hurt me repeatedly, never apologoised, lied to me and reduced me from a vibrant, happy woman to a crying, made me an emotional wreck?
I’ve noticed that some women will write off their female friends for indiscretions such as tardiness, bad mouthing, not repayaing loans or sleeping with their men. Yet when men do these same things, women want to be friends with them!
The man I used to date can keep on walking. He wasn’t my friend during the relationship and he isn’t my friend now.
So true if you weren’t friends in the relationship – how on earth are you going to be friends out of it?! It will never happen. As NML says he will only use the guise of friendship to treat you as badly as he ever did whilst not enabling you to move on and regain your self esteem.
Yea if you weren’t friends in the relationship as in being true friends… being friends after the breakup is not going to help the situation. First off he will still have all of the same issues that caused the relationship to end in the first place and being friends doesn’t mean that he’s going to act or treat you any differently. I couldn’t imagine being friends with my narcissist ex… That is why I cut him off completely and moved on!! I suggest you do the same to save yourself.
I have been struggling with this question for some time. I work with my former ass clown and have to see him everyday. I have let go of the notion that there is any future in terms of a relationship but simply ignoring him is not really an option. The problem I have is whether is a somewhat decent guy who behaved badly once “cornered” in a relationship he couldn’t handle or whether he is an absolute jerk who was well behaved for a while then showed his true colors. Even as I type this, I am realizing that it doesn’t actually matter. He is not good friend material. A friend would not have deceived me, strung me along or kept misleading me. There is also a difference between friendly and friends. It is possible to be civil and professional without having him in my personal life.