Several years back, in what turned out to be my ‘epiphany relationship’ that completely changed me, I was involved with someone that:
1) Pursued me and when we finally got together, he said he’d fancied me ever since we’d been introduced several months before (when he was in a relationship by the way…)
2) Said I was a ‘great girl’ and how he loved spending time with me
3) I slept with on a number of occasions and he stayed over
4) We hung out sometimes with each others respective friends
5) I did a lot of ego stroking
6) I listened to his moans and gripes about work and even his ex
7) We went out to dinner and the movies
8. Called, emailed and texted me
9) I made myself available for him to make plans with
I believed we were in a relationship. I’ll admit I didn’t go so far as to call him my boyfriend but I thought we had something decent going on and that we were moving towards a committed relationship. Aside from 2-3 weeks of intensity, the remainder of our five month ‘relationship’ was hot and cold, where both the frequency of seeing each other and the level of contact went downhill and I just didn’t know what to expect or what the hell was going on. It was only when I started to fully acknowledge my discomfort and play the ‘relationship’ back that I realised it was a barely there relationship or as many refer to it, a casual relationship.
Knowing just how hot and cold and inconsistent our ‘relationship’ was, you would be forgiven for wondering how the hell I didn’t realise?
It really isn’t too great a leap to believe, that because someone seems to enjoy your company so much, you’re sleeping with them over a period of time, giving them an ego stroke, a shoulder to lean on, being introduced to friends and even family, and are even having references to the future slipped in, that you’re in a relationship.
However it’s best to stop taking that leap and recognise that just because someone does want to contact you, sleep with you, and look for emotional sustenance from you over a period of time, it doesn’t mean you’re in a relationship because without landmarks of a healthy, loving (or on the way to loving) relationship such as commitment, intimacy and progression, your relationship is all shirt, no trousers, ham, no burger, bread, no butter.
Don’t believe how misguided I was? When we finally had The Conversation and I told him that it was obvious that it wasn’t working out, he admitted that he didn’t want a relationship – when we’d got together, he’d broken up with his ex a couple of months before. He then proceeded to remind me that I was gorgeous, fun, intelligent, great to spend time with and yada yada yada.
I was his Fallback Girl and I gave him a soft landing out of his old life and helped him avoid whatever feelings he had about his previous relationship.
Even though our attitude to relationships and what we consider casual has changed over time and includes foolishness like Friends With Benefits, Booty Calls (read: Dial A Lay) and the ‘option’ to boomerang in and out of an exes life at will, most of us still have this idea that someone who doesn’t want a relationship or just wants you for sex, will shag you once, or even a few times and then disappear, or just won’t bother to be with you.
Most of us are conditioned to think that when someone wants to ‘use’ you in a casual way, it’s for ‘sex’. In fact, I in particular get men telling me again and again that it’s for sex and that we [women] should know this. The being used for sex thing is bullshit though, because there’s no need to mock up a pseudo relationship to get laid. The barriers to entry for sex have been well and truly broken down.
No, these ambiguous, confusing, often painful situations arise because the driver of the casual relationship (there is always one that wants it more than the other) is in for whatever they can get with minimal emotional contribution. Their ego isn’t content with ‘just sex’ and they need attention or even a human reminder that they don’t have the problems that they actually do have.
Doing all this other stuff makes their actions and intentions palatable. Just shagging around might say something else about them.
Ultimately, to be ‘alone’ would require them to deal with feelings that they’ve got very good at avoiding by always having a ‘passenger’.
The ‘passenger’, either doesn’t know they’re going on a casual journey and through a lack of boundaries, not paying attention to red flags, and being caught up in latching on to the ‘hallmarks’, ends up along for the ride, or…they do know which journey they’re taking but they think that they can cope with it/that it suits them or, they hope to change the driver’s mind along the way so that they change direction.
And remember: Often when the ‘passenger’ knows that it’s casual, they don’t expect to have relationship type ‘stuff’ expected or even demanded from them.
Experiencing what feel like the ‘hallmarks’ of a relationship, then encourages us to believe that our feelings are growing and that the possibility of a relationship exists.
Of course, it’s like a slap in the face when it becomes clear that nothing more than what is happening is on offer.
The concept of someone fundamentally knowing (whether they admit or not) that they really don’t want to extend themselves beyond getting their needs met and that they don’t ‘see’ you in that [relationship] way is hard for most to grasp.
This is why so many people stick around in unavailable partnerings trying to prove themselves so that they can get validation that they’re not just ‘casually’ regarded.
Fact is, most people can’t handle casual, and the words ‘casual’ and ‘relationship’ in the romantic sense, just don’t go together too well, especially since some of these so-called ‘casual’ relationships can go on for a very long time if the ‘driver’ is very good at ‘passing time’, paying lip service to the idea of a relationship, but never actually delivering.
See the definitions of ‘casual’ (pictured above) including ‘relaxed and casual’ and ‘done or acting without sufficient care or thoroughness’ – none of these things say ‘relationship’. To expect someone to treat you with love, care, trust, and respect while in a casual relationship, makes it a relationship because your expectations are not casual – they’re meaningful.
Most of us want to mean something and we want that meaning to extend beyond ‘Good for giving me all the fringe benefits of a relationship without me having to actually even feel very much for them or put in much work’.
Much like when we get caught out by common interests because we don’t realise the importance of shared values, it’s equally important that we get wise to the superficiality that is so prevalent these days and recognise that we now live in a time where people can get so much more, for less.
In a time of instant access, instant communication, instant results, instant array of people to choose from on dating sites, instant sex, and a disposition to avoid feeling our feelings, society seems to have managed down our expectations of relationships and we have managed down our expectations of relationships because it suits where we are at emotionally. We have however, become too casual about ourselves and this is how we open ourselves up to having our boundaries busted and keep ourselves very far from the reality of a healthy, loving relationship.
Being ‘casual’ is so attractive to the emotionally unavailable – You appear to get way more for less without having to get vulnerable and be truly intimate, and which is exactly what you want to avoid. But while some have an active, vested interest in avoiding commitment and healthy relationships, there are lot of people who are unavailable as a result of a variety of factors and habits that just don’t even know what healthy looks like, but who don’t want to be treated in such a casual manner and who as a result of their own beliefs, self-esteem and habits are not always aware of the red herrings that are the ‘hallmarks’ without the ‘landmarks’ of a relationship.
This is why so many people get caught out – because it ‘looks’ like a relationship and may even ‘quack’ like a relationship, but without intimacy, progression, commitment, consistency, balance and a mutual care, trust, and respect, and then eventual love, it doesn’t have the meat or the equipment to walk like a relationship.
You’re not going to turn a pig’s ear casual relationship into a silk purse full on relationship, especially because by having stayed, the other person becomes trained to expect that it’s what they get. If they can get a relationship without putting in the emotional and action effort, there is zero impetus to change and if they felt more consequences and didn’t get what they want for less, they might re-evaluate their actions.
At the end of the day, you’re free to do whatever you like and that includes relationship insanity and trying to get people to make you the exception to their rule, but if you genuinely want to be in a mutually fulfilling, healthy, loving relationship that can actually go the distance, don’t sell yourself short, and as soon as you become aware that your ‘relationship’ is all shirt, no trousers, you opt out. You can’t force substance.
Your thoughts?
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One of your best Nat. Love it! Straight to the point and 100% clear on all counts. This is precisely what I had going on, although he said he wanted different. Hah! I was happy with casual but he asked me for the commitment, then blew cold (for the 2nd time), and finally – ditched me. My conclusion today? He was confused, didn’t know what he wanted, tried me on for size and then oops: “I made a mistake”
“The concept of someone fundamentally knowing (whether they admit or not) that they really don’t want to extend themselves beyond getting their needs met and that they don’t ‘see’ you in that [relationship] way is hard for most to grasp. ”
That totally nailed it. It was hard to grasp. Especially with all the future faking going on. Actions and words not even on the same world let alone same page. I could not wrap my mind around that then. Not even close. I see it clearly now. Truly several painful lessons learned. But at the end of the day – the most important thing is – I am not that woman anymore.
NML,
I really liked this post. You said :
“We have however, become too casual about ourselves and this is how we open ourselves up to having our boundaries busted and keep ourselves very far from the reality of a healthy, loving relationship.”
I really agree with this as the lower your boundaries are to poor behaviours from others and also from yourself, the more “vampires” you will let through the door. Expecting healthy, loving, respectful relationships from people who are persistantly not treating you this way and then accepting their bad behaviour and not treating yourself well is a recipie for all sorts of sadness.
Having strong personal boundaries and knowing your values is one way to make sure you don’t get caught out by others who are doing what suits them with no real regard to you whatsoever.
It hurts to realise thst someone else only sees you as a bit player in the show that is their life and you really have a minor walk on part but as NML said, when you wise up to this fact the ONLY choice is to inject some boundaries and opt out.
(if you are interested in values and boundaries in all areas of life have a look at my blog if you fancy)
I hear you Moved Up. That they don’t see or hear you is so hard to understand. It’s like trying to hold onto a slippery fish that wants to jump back in the water. It takes a toll you at the time, and for a while after you figure out what’s going on.
Thanks to Natalie we have light to show us the way out of the labyrinth.
This blog is a lifeline!!
Indeed. Neither am I. It is so hard to actually get to the point of formulating that thought even! The x said he wanted to go long-term, did he mean with me? He wanted to move out of the mat home and said before he moved in with someone. That someone was likely some ideal woman he envisioned, not me. If I’d just called him on all of it.
Damn I love reading your blog! Perfect timing on this one…it’s exactly what I had been mulling over. Thank you!
Oh boy!! Another winner!! This is my latest…”I don’t know what you call it” for the last year that I ended today. I did NC and then went to Suck it and See and boy did I see!!
Painful. Sure. Less painful than before now that I have been learning about my relationship habits and beliefs? You bet!! I actually see self progress and self esteem re-emerging from the ashes of being a fallback girl.
@ Charla-
I just went through the same type of guy! So annoying 😛
Yup. I can see things so much more clearly 2 months on. I was his post-separation experiment. You’d think after 3 years (not D’d yet) that he’d have a clue.
Oh, how I wish I could travel back to 2009 and show myself this post before all the malarkey…
Spot on as usual Nat.
Describes exactly my last relationship. Didn’t know that he was looking at casual, didn’t even know what that was, until after I told him I couldn’t do whatever it was we were doing anymore. So comforting to read these articles and fully understand what happened to me and my part in it.
Just reread your book on values. Preparing for the next real relationship and will be able to spot the values that I am looking for and those that I am not and whether the person is wanting to spend time with me for the same reasons that I want to spend time with him. I feel that I have learned a lifetime of knowledge in the last year. I feel so lucky to have found this site. I know that it has saved me from so many years of pain.
What I love about your blogs is they cut through all the confusion.
The hot and cold behaviour you describe kind of throws you off balance. You’re so dazed and bewildered, your head is spinning, and you can’t make sense of it. You can’t quite believe anyone would treat you like that, so it’s easy to make excuses for it.
Your blogs hold up the mirror of truth and show the situation for what it really is – abusive, hurtful, cruel and just plain wrong. There is no way they are ever going to change. The only way to save yourself is to get the hell out of there.
Steph, what you write really resonates for me. The hot/cold behavior had me so confused, I couldn’t believe/accept that anyone would treat me (or anyone else for that matter) this way; I made endless excuses, mainly blaming myself, trying to refashion myself to fix the situation, obsessively analyzing, spiraling into “relationship insanity,” even getting physically ill, and seriously so, over the damn thing, and not seeing the reality: I was in an “abusive, hurtful, cruel and just plain wrong” (so well said) non-relationship with a man who would never change and would continue to string me along to meet his various needs (not just sex, but the validation/attention he needed from time to time w/o the threat of intimacy). I allowed this to continue for almost 6 years with numerous breaks, but always going back for more abuse, ever hopeful for change, although really knowing it would not come about and so confused. NO MORE. I’ve been NC for almost 2 months and as time goes on, I more clearly see the disfunctional interaction for what it was – empty, harmful, fed by my delusions, me being manipulated by a very clever EUM who knew how to manage (lower) my expectations, exploit my lack of boundaries and my intense feelings for him. I feel the painful ties to this awful episode loosening, thought this would never happen. And I look inward to understand what drew me to/kept me in this punishing (although enlightening!) experience.
@proudly. We must have been going out with the same assclown! Everything you wrote above describes me. I made excuses for him, downplayed my needs, reduced my expectations, accepted appalling treatment, refashioned myself to suit him, and ultimately gave myself a nervous breakdown from the strain of being unauthentic, untrue to myself, and emotionally abused by him for nearly a year.
Now I’m left feeling utterly humiliated and i dont know where to go with that.
Nat’s writings at the top uncannily describe my exact relationship with Mark perfectly (have you been watching us, Natalie?) If ONLY he’d just wanted sex, I would never have ended up emotionally devastated. It was his wrenching out of me all the benefits of being in a relationship while not being in one himself. In other words, I was his girlfriend but he was never my boyfriend. I was in love with him and he used that to exploit everything he could out of me while not actually giving me a relationship.
But even that wasn’t enough. He had to do the same with another woman, and then another… and I put up with it, as he knew I would, cos I had made 100% emotional investment in the relationship and he’d made 0%. I just lowered my expectations.
I heartily wish I’d read this blog a year ago, it would have literally saved me from a nervous breakdown.
Hi MarksPoppet you said:
“Now I’m left feeling utterly humiliated and i dont know where to go with that.”
You know lots of people hve had a similar experience to yourself. It’s okay to feel sad about it but forgive yourself and allow yourself to move forwards with your life by focusing on you.
Great post, but I suppose I don’t understand what I, as a woman, am supposed to feel about being in this situation. I have been involved in a few casual relationships in the past year. I didn’t know they were casual and empty until it was too late and I had already been hurt. I was always the passenger, and him the driver, but often times it doesn’t seem like this until something happens and his actions and words make it clear that he isn’t interested anymore.
I share similar feelings. I also wonder whether they enter into the relationship intending for it to be casual, or do they simply demote you to ‘casual’ once their feelings for you change/decrease? I find myself getting all sorts of mixed messages when I read other types of sites similar to Christian Carter’s- Catch him and Keep Him which lead me to question whether I’m doing something wrong that ends up changing the course of the relationship. Any insights would be appreciated.
L
the chronically casual have little self awareness, no sense or direction and limited sense of responsibility to others. there isn’t much intention there, they are just reacting (like we do, to be fair). they react to the need for status, affection, love, attention, sex, normality, whatever by being with someone. but they don’t have much to give.
“catch him and keep him”?. maybe it should be “catch him and throw him back when you realise he’s a waste of time”.
i don’t believe a woman or man can make someone love them if said someone doesn’t want it. sure, you can use tactics to get someone to stick around, you may even get them down the altar, have children, whatever. but it’s not genuine. if that’s how you want to live then by all means give it a try but to me it seems exhausting and fake.
I really don’t like Christian Carter at all. I think that he puts all the responsibility for the sucess of the relationship on the woman. He leads you to believe that if you just do x,y and z you too can “catch” your EU man. I’m always thinking to myself when I read his stuff who the fuck wants to do all that crap….just dump the loser!!!
Ms A,
I so totally agree with you! I have the Catch Him and Keep Him e-book and get the emails nearly every day advertising what we poor delusional women are doing wrong. Um hello! What about the man taking some responsibility for his part in the relationship? Next time I have a great date and the guy doesn’t call me back, or retreats into his cave or wherever the f%$k he goes then no way am I going to bend over backwards to change who I am or how I live my life to suit them – if they start acting out in a way that doesn’t suit me then see ya later mate – NEXT! Like my best friend always says – men are like buses, no point in chasing them as there’s another one due in 5 minutes.
@Miss A
Regarding Christian Carter and his Catch Em and Keep Em– i downloaded this when i was going through my time with the eum/ac. What he said on his videos was what got me to download his book. He would say things like “if you cant get your man to step up, I understand what that feels like..bla bla and I can help you”… Gee, i thought, this guy really knows what it feels like and cos he’s a guy himself, maybe he was going to reveal what was really going on because i was completely bewildered.
When i read his book, i thought it was the greatest load of bs i had ever read!
He was putting all the responsibility on the woman in the relationshp and his main thing is – whatever you do – DONT MAKE DEMANDS! and DON’T COMPLAIN! because that will just scare your man off ! (In other words, if your guy isn’t calling you like he should, say nothing).
Really, he would have you thinking that men are such delicate flowers we have to thread with extreme caution!!!
Now that i’ve learned about eums, I realise that he was actually speaking about emotionally unavailable men.
Really, his stuff is complete baloney.
Catch Em and Keep Em – men are not fish that we can catch, reel in and keep!
Hi I just want to chime in here and agree with all of you about Christian Carter, actually to me he seems like he’s trying to tell women that all men are perfect (ha!) and we should wrap ourselves up into a pretzel to win them and never lose their interest, etc etc. BS! Also his articles are written like there’s some ‘deep secret’ he’s about to ‘let you in on’ if you only pay money. And he keeps dragging it out with out saying much except telling you, the woman, that you’ve done something horribly wrong and that’s why your man doesn’t appreciate you any more. Please. I think it’s keen marketing on his part, not good advice, that made him get noticed. I believe he had a contract with one of the dating sites to do articles for them. I don’t remember, maybe Match or Cupid… Those articles would be much better and helpful to women, (and consequently to men) if Natalie did them. No Thanks to Christian Carter’s ‘advice’. If I’m on the lake and I catch a dud, I toss it back.
Ha… I had to comment on this as well because I did the same thing. I remember 3 years ago when I was dealing and confused by the same EUM. I came across Baggage Reclaim but I also came across Catch Him and Keep Him at the same time. Guess which one I decided to follow because I wasn’t ready to deal with myself yet?? You guessed it. I bought into Christian Carter’s nonsense and it just got me deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole believing that if there was only something I could do to win him over… I need to “play it cool” like CC says. Oh man… what a waste of another 2 years before i finally came back to BR site and realized that this tough love was actually the advice that was TRUE. I needed to get tough with myself and face up to some truths, I also need to gather all of my strength and even through the tears and pain… stand up and leave. Fight the incredible pull to respond to texts and calls using NC. Boy was it tough for a girl like me who was convinced for so many years that I was “the cool girl”… how could they not see me as a catch?! No guy tries this hard for my attention if he didn’t really and secretly love me!
The truth is… no matter what he did or didn’t feel, no matter what he feels about me now… what WAS important was how I felt about myself. I wasn’t wrong to have feelings of love for someone. I wasn’t crazy, he definitely was toying with me because I let him, and he didn’t want to have responsibility for anything more. We weren’t and aren’t “friends”. I have woken up. I have pulled myself out of the hole…. finally! Thank god for BR to help right the so many wrongs out there of misinformation. It makes me sad for those of us that are stuck in the hole.
Once again, thank you Natalie 🙂
L.,
I had to reply to your comment since my older sister thought it would be funny to sign me up for the Christian Carter email newsletter haha! I think Christian Carter is talking about a normal, emotionally available man who starts out wanting to get to know you and with good intentions, not a Mr. Unavailable/AC who is promising things that it makes no sense to promise, is WAY intense, or has crappy intentions.
Here’s an example: I gave an AC that never wanted a relationship with me a second (ok, maybe like third) chance, because he said that he wanted to really get to know me and spend time together. All well and good, but of course within a few days he’s inviting me to family holiday festivities, he’s madly in love with me, blah blah. Of course, six weeks later…Houdini has left the building! Now, if I was applying Christian Carter principles to this one, I’d be looking to see what I did to scare him off. I mean, he said he made it seem like he wanted to date me for real, right?! What did I do wrong? Ah, well, the only reason he said he wanted to date me for real was because I told him to take his booty call and get to steppin’. See what I mean? Conventional dating advice is VERY hard to apply to Mr. Unavailables and ACs.
If something seemed off from the start, or it was hot and cold (as Natalie says, decent dudes opt out and stay opted out when they know they’re not interested or capable of giving you the relationship you want), it’s HIGHLY unlikely it was something you did to get the “casual” label.
Hope this helps!! 🙂
It definitely does help. Really appreciate all of your feedback 🙂
Wow, this is exactly what I’m dealing with right now and have finally decided to “opt out”. After months of intensity I now deal with “hot and cold” behavior, “future faking” and a lack of caring about my feelings. My self esteem does not need any more beatings. Thanks for this posting, Nat.
I love your candor. If I really just want sex, as you say, I can get that pretty quickly and easily, thanks to the internet and any number of places. But I’ve tried that and it’s not very fulfilling. I’m not a prude. It just didn’t satisfy for more than a few hours. If it were so great, I would do it all the time and not waste time on your blog. But instead, I want more. And I have come to enjoy growing my relationship skills and knowledge. It seems to be helping me live in the world, both in relationships and even at work.
But the internet “dates” sure are tempting. It would help if the dating sites would not advertise with carefully selected models. I’m not made of stone!
David, thanks for sharing. I think most women go through a time (after rejection) when they think all men want is to get laid. Your thoughts here show others (especially women) that that is not true for all men.
In fact, I remember a time when I was with a couple of male friends (the ones more like brothers) when they were sharing that they wanted more. I was so pleased to be a fly on the wall. Unfortunately these guys had been through separation and divorce first to get to that point.
Why not turn it around and become the partner you want first? If you want commitment, commit (this could be at work, a hobby…). If you want love, give love. (this could even be mentoring youth or visiting a nursing home and chatting with residents who have no visitors).
Give what you want! Then over time it will come back to you (although not necessarily in the way you think)!
Another timely post Nat.
The more I read your blog, the more I am coming to suspect I am actually a fair bit emotionally unavailable myself. While I would like to meet a decent guy for a proper healthy relationship I know I’m not ready for that sort of committment so in the meantime I tend to gravitate towards unavailable men for “casual” relationships, which are really just seductions or dalliances.
However I go into these dalliances with my eyes wide open and absolutely no inclination to turn it into a relationship. The trick I feel, is to strip back all the relationship faking behaviours and recognise the situation for what it really is. Only then can you deal with that person on a level playing field and become the driver and not the passenger (either play their game or exit stage left). I found reading “The Art of Seduction” by Robert Green was instrumental in teaching me to recognise seducer types and how they work. Now when I am ready for a committed healthy relationship I’ll be more than able to recognise charmers, rakes, coquettes, narcissists and other seducer types/behaviours and keep well away.
Spot on Natalie. I have been on and off with my ex. Last december we officially broke up for good. He told me he needed to work on himself and that he wasnt emotionally able to give me the relationship I wanted. The relationship was off and on , we BOTH were hot and cold with each other. We went 3 weeks no contact in december (NOT A PEEP DURING THE HOLIDAYS!) Then I broke contact, we saw each other 2 times. The last time we got into an arguement over the break up and then the next day he came over ( I asked him), we made up ( but didnt get back together) and we cuddled, fooled around. Two days later we had a talk over the phone and got into an arguement AGAIN. It was really bad,We agreed that we shouldnt talk to each other. He sent me an angry email after that fight which I quickly deleeted ( After the fight he called me multiple times , I didnt answer). He proceed to call me over and over the next day after the fight. I finally picked up and he apologized to me for being insensitive to my feelings, the times he was mean, being hurtful and mad during our relationship. To me it was TOTAL SHOCK and surprise to hear him say those words. He never apoplogized for anything. I texted him the next day saying that its best if we be no contact for a while so I can heal, get my life back together and move on. He texted me back, thanking me for the text, apologized again, stating he undertood, wished me best wishes and that he was going to pray for me ( he is very religious). He has been respecting my no contact as we live in the same town, its been a couple of days actually. I feel good and Im happy he gave me my epiphany moment, might actually get a tattoo dedicated to this experience ( But it wont involve his name!!! hahaha). Ive seen a small changes in him and while thats great, I want to focus on me and move past this. Taking things one day at a time and Im loving myself more.
This was soooo on point. It reminda me of two songs; Lesson Learned by Alicia Keys and Melt My Heart to Stone by Adele.
Nat: Minor error in your text:
“See the definitions of ‘casual’ (pictured above) including ‘relaxed and casual’”
You mean to say : See the definitions of ‘casual’ (pictured above) including ‘relaxed and unconcerned.’
Great post, as always. Should be taught to all kids in school.
“It’s equally important that we get wise to the superficiality that is so prevalent these days and recognise that we now live in a time where people can get so much more, for less. …. You can’t force substance.”
You said it, sister.
One of my realizations from my last relationship is that superficiality is different things to different people. For me it’s this crafted way of talking about light topics for the sake of keeping casual acquaintances entertained. For some, it is the “good behaviour” mask on a depth of hostility and moral indifference. My “best” me is the one who drops the craft and says real things and aims for difficult honesty. For some, their “best me” IS that superficial being (at least at the conscious level, or level of habit). I believe each person’s true core is goodness, but that doesn’t mean every person has a developed relationship with their own conscience.
I thought shallow behaviour just meant that person had never been listened to by a person who cared about their depths. I wanted to be that person.
So, what a doomed project, trying to expose my tender core to a human whose interior is bland or hollow at best, amoral or vicious at worst. No wonder the talk of a life partnership, shared property, family etc always felt like an act. I believe my ex-bf/AC believed he was giving me his all; that he was giving me more than casual. He was, in his way: he attempted to keep up the superficial ‘good guy’ act 24/7. I was getting the best of him. Too bad the best of him was absolutely crafted for glossy, light and casual.
I wanted to be the person that saw beyond that surface. But it never occurred to me that I can’t force substance.
And yes, the NC focus on me is about taking a hard look at my own superficiality; the form it takes, when I keep it up too long, or when I drop it far too soon.
Wow. What you described (minus the sex) is exactly a description of my non-relationship with my EUM. I’ve always been a person who trusts people and treats them as innocent until proven guilty. Funny how all the evidence leading clearly to ‘GUILTY!’ was blindly overlooked. I was focusing with all my strength on the ‘hallmarks’ and missing the big picture.
It is definitely true that these people are not just out for sex. My EUM treated me like we had something going on without ever once forcing me to sleep with him. In fact, it was this behaviour that led me to believe he was being a gentleman and taking things slow to lead up into a truly meaningful relationship. Hah!
Looking back I now wish I asked that important question – “Are you interested in being in a committed relationship?” – way earlier in our time together (Yes, I’ve been reading the archives like a studious student!). I would have known from the beginning that he was just looking for something casual and I wouldn’t have wasted all that time investing my emotions and heart into something that was never there.
I wonder do these people knowingly go out there to just use women like this, and do they really not care about the women they are dealing with?
TT
re whether or not these people knowingly use women … (and vice versa, women use men too)
i doubt they analyse themselves very much (they don’t have to, we do it all for them ha!). however, i can almost understand how they think we are, at the very least, okay with the arrangement. after all, we are still there, sometimes years later. for many of us, the more he runs off, the more we throw sex, affection, money, attention at them so he’s not seeing any negative consequences. we might confront them but fail to take any action so he thinks “oh, she’s just sounding off.”
the only way they’re going to “get” that you don’t like it is if you … stop doing it.
they only do what suits them, they only do what they want. so in their world they’re assuming YOU only do what you suits you as well.
they don’t think they’re using us, they think they’re giving us what we want.
You are right when you say “they only do what suits them, they only do what they want. so in their world they’re assuming YOU only do what you suits you as well.” The self absorption and selfishness i witnessed in my own pseudo-relationship was uncanny. I think the only way to convey your message to them (and to yourself) that you want something more substantial is to take action by opting out.
Grace you said it!:
“they don’t think they’re using us, they think they’re giving us what we want”
That is the nub of the issue. They give you what you want and how do they know that’s what you want? Well you are still there lapping up the insanity and not saying Bu-bye! When you opt out and get on with your own gorgeous life, you give a strong message that bullshit is not a currency useable here!
Natalie,
Great post. I’ve been in many so called “serious” relationships where I could tick and flick 1-10.
Teatime – I think there are many walking wounded who don’t understand what a committed relationship is. I think when you have “the talk”, to get a mutual understanding and agreement on what the term committed means and what will happen (houses, children, goals, assets etc.) in the future if the relationship progresses.
As for honesty from others…it does exist. Kudos to one ex schmuck for telling me that he wanted to keep the relationship fun. Exit stage right.
Another great post, with real substance. This describes my last relationship to a T. It looked like a relationship and so I made it one in my head. I gave meaning to things he did, where he meant nothing at all. I invested way more than I should have and ended up brokenhearted. In the past, I would have beaten myself up and called the relationship a failure. Now I see it differently. I have always believed (and this is one of the relationship beliefs I have thought about and am deciding to keep) that relationships are meant to help us grow and change and work through our issues. They are supposed to be a safe place for us to look at ourselves and our feelings. A relationship is a mirror we hold up to ourselves. What we dislike in others is usually something we have trouble accepting about ourselves. This is meant to help us see ourselves and grow and change. The reason I no longer see my past bad relationships as failures is because I have used them to grow and change, particularly the last, most painful abusive disaster. While in the relationship (a barely there relationship if ever there was one), I had begged for his approval, care, respect and validation. Now I see that I don’t need his consent, approval, cooperation or participation to grow from the experience. Like you Natalie, this barely there relationship has been a true epiphany. I have seen myself honestly for the first time and recognize my role in all this. I have seen my actions and their consequences clearly. I have learned that he actually doesn’t need to contribute anything in order for me to learn and grow – I guess assclowns are good for something, whether they know it or not!
I had so wanted the last guy to be the one, to help me heal from my past, to end my pain and to love and care for me. In the end, he did help me on the road to that, not by actually caring for me but by making me see that I needed to care for myself. Even a barely nothing relationship with the worst EUM, AC narcissist can be a success, if the outcome is that you learn something. I had spent my adult life trying to get others to love and care for me and had destroyed myself and my self respect in the process. It took a brutal relationship with someone who literally didn’t care for me at all to help me see what I was doing and realize that the only thing I could change and control was me.
I used to think that denial was something people consciously chose. Now I see that is ridiculous. I was in deep denial for years, about what I was doing, what I was feeling and what I wanted and needed. When I was ready, the fog lifted. It was a rough process but a very necessary one.
Eventually, when I am ready, I want a good, healthy loving relationship with someone who wants to be there, and is able to give and receive love, trust and respect. I believe that it is possible at any age. I have enough faith in myself that it can happen. I don’t need the facade of a relationship, nor do I desperately need someone else to validate me. The scraps of a relationship are no longer good enough. I deserve a real meal. I truly believe it will happen when I too have something good to bring to the table.
Debra,
You said it perfectly!
My ex disrespected me like no other-I was an active participant-but I am thankful, as I needed this unhealthy relationship to make necessary changes in my life.
I can choose to see myself as victim or I can take what I have learned and make some positive changes with my life. If we don’t recognize our participation in these situations, we will repeat the cycle, again and again.
Wonderful post, Debra! I am a consummate rescuer and read a while ago that rescuers are always looking to be rescued themselves. So true for me, if I’m honest. I now know that the only one that can rescue me is me. Surprised by how scary that is, but I know it’s the only way. Until I fix me and my life, I will always end up with a man who needs fixing.
Yep. That’s it right there. My life.
Emma if you don’t like it you can really change it! Go for it girl!
men in these situations (i hesitate to use the word relationship) absolutely do not want just sex. wheres the ego stroke in that? no, they most certainly do want someone who likes them, who wants to spend time with them, who thinks highly of them, who they can show off to friends and family, who will put up with their crap, maybe even cook and clean for them (for crying out loud). they might even enjoy being cute and affectionate with you.
if such a guy was just humped and dumped his big bloated ego would be severely dented.
Amen, Grace! My AC thought he was so superior to other men because he wasn’t in it for the sex. What he wanted was ego massage. He never really cared for me – he just liked how much I adored him. I, too, was trotted out like a show pony for the friends and family as if he were saying “look,e veryone, I may be 40, still living at home with mama, never had a girlfriend longer than 3 months and am devoid of empathy or care for ohers, but look what I can pull!!”.
I think we do ourselves a disservice if the only red flag we look for is them wanting sex. What they really want is someone they can control, and someone who will love them without them having to love back.
Spot on Grace! They don’t just want sex – men who only have one night stands are the ones who just want sex. EUMs and ACs want all the other stuff you mentioned too. Selfish buggers.
My ex EUM told me from day one he didn’t want a relationship, which is exactly where i was at, at the time, having come out of a 6 year relationship that had fizzled out. Needless to say i didn’t want it to be causal for long and, after i dumped him, the idiot fell to bits and chased me to get me back, only to dump me two weeks later (by email – nice), because he couldn’t take being the rejected one, he had to ‘win’. Congratulations to him – still living at home with his mum and having nothing meaningful with anyone, neither is he ever likely to. Wicked ‘prize’! 🙂
They have no regard for other people’s feelings, a complete lack of empathy, but yet when their egos are hurt, they go into complete melt down! I find this hilarious now, but it was confusing as hell back then because i didn’t understand how someone could have such a lack of empathy and such utter self -absorbtion!
I have firmly put this (and him) all behind me. Thank goodness! What a plonker!
Oh my this is what happened to me! I often look back at how I ended things with my EUM after weeks of wondering where the hell I stood/ hot-cold-hot-cold/feeling like I was on the way to a relationship etc… And think ‘maybe if I had chilled out a bit/ held on a bit longer’ that he’d be on board and we may have ended up being together properly, as it seemed so great for a little while… Then I read this post and realise it was the right decision and the outcome would have been the same. Can’t force these things! I can just feel glad that my ex EUM was surprised I ended things the way i did, didn’t see it coming as I was always so available to him, ego stroking and giving him support he thought he would be the one to end things… He does tell friends it was him who ended things which is so childish, I just say nothing as I know the truth! Remarkable that there is a whole group of men out there who behave in this way! They should all get together and talk about their issues!
how do you forgive yourself after being tricked into such a casual “relationship?” how do you forgive yourself for actively ignoring the red flags (thinking it will be ok this time)?
T,
By changing your behavior and establishing boundaries in your life. Once we learn to respect and love ourselves, we can forgive ourselves.
One more thing: I noticed the word “tricked.” When I was able to admit that I choose to ignore the red flags and saw my participation, I was able to move on to a positive place. If we see ourselves as victims, we will never change our behaviors.
Do these dots connnect? I read Natalie’s article and your posts this morning and thought about the info all day. Today was a particularly hard day because three years ago was one of our first times together, albeit at a work event. Something always bothered me as we would recount our first times together. Three years ago, he invited me to attend a work event with him which was okay even though he was married because it was work….that was my stupid thinking at the time. Honestly by that time, we had spent so much time flirting at work, I was already hooked. But here’s what bothers me. We had a break between the morning and afternoon activities and I suggested we go to lunch. Later, when we talked about the “early days”, he said he thought that it was funny that I wanted to go to lunch and wondered why I didn’t invite him to my house. At that point, we had not been intimate yet. Honestly, it did not even cross my mind to run off and have sex for the first time in between work activities. It crossed his! Another thing always bothered me. About three weeks before that day, on the first night we finally really talked, we went for drinks after a meeting and he asked if I was “in”? Needless to say, I was. Sign me up for “passenger” please. Later, as we talked about the “early days”, he said he was surprised I didn’t invite him to my house. Again, it didn’t cross my mind that we’d go to my house and have sex after a late meeting. It was 11 or so pm, and I was thinking about getting to sleep because I had an early class the next morning. What in the world? I was thrown off the scent of a casual relationship for the hallmarks of a real relationship? Before we crash this site with responses regarding the fact I should have known better because he was married and I should have been under no illusion as he was wearing a neon flag (no wedding ring), I admit to being emotionally unavailable. Honestly, honestly, honestly, I truly did not realize that I was emotionally unavailable until I started reading this site. I guess that has been the most difficult part of 41 days of NC. Facing my own demons instead of blaming and being angry at him. He was good at faking the hallmarks of a relationship. I was so willing to settle for crumbs because I don’t think I’d know a healthy relationship if Mr. Right knocked on my door right now with a healthy relationship tied up nice package with a pretty purple bow. Here’s the reason why I think I’m sharing, I don’t want a casual relationship. I thought I did because then I couldn’t get hurt. It didn’t work that way. He quacked though. Couldn’t walk but could quack. Did he just want a shag, ego stroke, dinner, wine, and a shoulder to lean on? I guess that is a rhetorical question. He was honest right from the start. I wasn’t.
runnergirl:
I hesitated to think this post applied to me because my ex and I talked about the steps of our dating being dating, then when it felt right, moving in, then when the time was right, marrying, then kids. He knew I was looking for the full package and said he was into it; that he’d made a decision that he was looking for a permanent relationship before he met me.
But then, little things, kind of like yours: on our first trip together, on the plane, he leans over after some little laugh and says, “Oh, don’t tell my girlfriend — oh wait, you ARE my girlfriend.” Or another trip, the little jokes I’m supposed to wink at about how you can get exec rooms for only half the day if you’re out before 4 pm.
If I’m not misremembering, didn’t you also get messages that he might leave his partner for you? Or you just got tired of the crumbs and wanted the whole?
That’s the crazy thing: the “relationship” talk, the casual walk. I think if I went along for the ride, I could have been the passenger in this man’s life with the Wife label. Now I am beginning recognize the difference between Official Title and Meaningful Relationship. I swear even if I’d married the guy we still would have been in a casual relationship, just one with more red tape and more obligatory social appearances.
I like Nat’s reminder that ‘casual’ doesn’t just mean a negotiated FWB thing or a guy saying he doesn’t want anything serious. Casual can still be where the guy says he wants something serious, or professes to want something serious, but does so Without Sufficient Care or Thoroughness, or Without Thought or Premeditation. Or if we do.
LOL at “neon” flag, by the way!
I totally get this! “He was honest right from the start. I wasn’t.”
I was emotionally unavailable (even though I didn’t recognise it until much later) myself due to my circumstances (in the middle of a long divorce which has now been finalised). I had a set of beliefs about myself and my situation due to the long and miserable messages I was getting from my ex about the person that I was. I internalised my beliefs and created a situation with the MM AC that would validate my beliefs – in other words I became the victim, the punished, the unworthy the one that was tricked because that’s all I was worth.
Whereas some people think they shouldn’t be angry at an AC/EUM/MM-person, I think we should be because it gives us clarity and makes us GET REAL!
I got real and realised that I was worth it, I didn’t deserve punishment and I am a lovely person. Someone has to be pretty twisted and sick themselves to take advantage of someone that is in a vulnerable position. That’s what MM or AC’s or EUM’s do. They single out people who can march to their tune. They, along with us invalidate a positive healthy loving relationship.
Yes, I got very angry with my ex and the ex MM, both of them acted without scruples and decency – and my getting real about it helped me on the road to recovery.
I’ll never let another human being make me believe I am less than who I am again. I will never give my power away again.
Thanks Nat, for helping me see the light! I’m over three months NC now 🙂
It is amazing how similar all of our stories are and how similarily these situations unfold. Based on your description Lynne, your situation sure quacked like a meaningful relationship. Your comment about the difference betwee the Official Title vs. Meaningful Relationship is great and connects a few of Natalie’s articles. You could have had the Official Title AND still been the passenger in a casual relationship. What was your breaking point? I think I may have ended up with the Official Title and it would still have been a casual relationship. I loved the comment about more red tape and obligatory appearances. Before I read your posts, I thought I wanted those obligatory appearances. Is that why his wife hated to attend and looked so bored in the pics? This stuff is incredibily tricky and crazy-making. Those seemingly innocent and subtle comments in the beginning of these situations are very telling in retrospect. I’ll be listening and hearing next time. My ex MM never explicitly said that he’d leave his wife. Whenever we had the “defining the relationship” discussion, his response was that he couldn’t leave until his daughter left for college this summer. Of course, what I imagined he said was that when his daughter left, he’d leave. Not the same thing. My breaking point: As Christmas approached, my denial was cracking. I was sick and tired of crumbs, sick and tired of being ninth or tenth, sick and tired of listening to him whine and then go home to his wife to decorate the Christmas tree, and sick and tired of being sick and tired. My text messages were very telling and I’m glad they were in writing. I said: “Am I going to be your mistress for the rest of my life”? I’m miserable. I want to live, laugh, and have fun. I don’t want to cry, be sad, hurt, and be miserable. This isn’t living.” On the official break-up day, we were both so miserable, it simply was not possible to continue. Additionally after two years, it was the first time his story changed. His daughter may be staying home for the first two years of college and he couldn’t leave his wife in the same year his son passed away. His son’s death was a “game changer”, he said. I didn’t hear him again. He said he couldn’t do this anymore because “he loved me” and realized (finally), it was “killing me” and that he had been an “asshole to me”. I didn’t hear him again. Rather, I said let’s not make any decisions now and let’s go out for dinner (denial, denial, denial). Here was the moment: He couldn’t go out for dinner because he had a political event to attend. He said that “this is how it is going to be”. He said “it would be wonderful if we could attend the political event together and then go out for dinner” (future faking) but we can’t. (He was re-defining the relationship and managing down my expectations to even less than crumbs.) As he left, he said, “this is how it’s going to be” as I waved bye. An hour later, I texted and said that he was right, it’s over and that he was right about him being an asshole. That was it!
” Casual can still be where the guy says he wants something serious, or professes to want something serious, but does so Without Sufficient Care or Thoroughness, or Without Thought or Premeditation. Or if we do.” You nailed it! Do these guys read a manual on how to quack like a duck without walking like a duck?
You bet Leigh, I was angry and I’ve been angry and I am angry. I hear you about getting real through anger. In my situation, underlying my anger is hurt and sadness. Anger seems much more comfortable for me because it triggers something active or like you say, getting real. For me, hurt and saddness trigger vulnerability. I don’t much like vulnerability. Is there a balance between power and vulnerability? I don’t want to give my power away again either. How do we retain our power and be vulnerable without being taken advantage of and be emotionally available?
Runnergirl,
I always had these feelings that he would cheat, and actually almost from the beginning had feelings that he was a closet pedophile / predator (or at least had a taste for the barely-legal and the brownskinned-therefore-in-his-mind-lower-class). But because I couldn’t prove the first, and the second was too horrible to contemplate (ie. how could I ever think that about someone? I must be the awful person!), I never fully acted on those feelings. Even when I began having nightmares of him trying to kill me, or awful gutwrenches when he would say these weird things about his friends’ daughter, I didn’t leave. I didn’t know then how much information my feelings were giving me; I thought I needed proof. I thought, people are “innocent until proven guilty.” But what kind of nuts is it to stick around waiting for proof that a guy is a cheat or a pedophile before leaving?
So in the end I just went with how I felt when I was with him. It sucked, and slowly, with the help of a therapist, I began naming what I felt in the moment, and it was no good. In the end, I watched him have to call up people at the last minute to celebrate a big milestone birthday (no one in his life, besides me, was close enough to him to be looking forward to being with him on the day), then absolutely treat them like crap after they went out of their way to accommodate him.
For whatever reason, seeing how he treated the people who were there for him on his birthday, how he related to the people he called his closest friends, finally did it. I was able to let him treat me like crap for nine months, because no one else was there to witness/validate it so I doubted my own judgment. But when I saw him be a jerk to other good people (people who had no influence on his political standing), I knew I would never be able to stand next to that guy and feel proud of him. Proud of his status, yes; proud to be ‘allowed’ into his political/profession inner circle, yes; proud of his character, goodness or insight, no way.
He treated everyone who wasn’t currently important to him getting what he wanted as ‘casual.’
Of course, as I keep working on me I’m seeing how the casual thing fits me, too, but that’s another set of posts!
Lynne, I’m struck by how you had such feelings so early in the relationship. I’ve been there and understand how my head overrides my feelings. I understand how you could stay despite the realization that there were major red flags. It is odd that we hang in there when our gut is saying the opposite. Like you, I have doubted my own judgment.
You are so fortunate to be done with him. I am so fortunate to be done with him too.
“He treated everyone who wasn’t currently important to him getting what he wanted as ‘casual.’
Of course, as I keep working on me I’m seeing how the casual thing fits me, too, but that’s another set of posts!”
The ‘casual’ thing fit me too, until it didn’t. I’m realizing how emotionally unavailable I was. Thanks for being there. NC sure sucks.
@t and Allison
This is my current problem. I am utterly furious with myself and with him. The rage is eating me up and I feel a desperate need to inflict some kind of violence upon him, or get revenge. The “revenge” of just never falling for it again feels lame – I want to punch and kick and shriek, but am too ladylike to do so, so it’s all turned inwards, making me depressed and on the edge of complete nervous collapse.
Marks-Poppet,
I went through exactly the same. I am now totally over the ex EUM and with someone wonderful. I can tell you that this angry phase does pass and, when it does, you’ll be proud that you maintained your dignity.
Even negative attention is attention, remember. A sign that you care. The oposite of love is not hate – the opposite of love is indifference. Let him feel your icy indifference! It’s far more telling than your anger.
Minky,,,your words hit home…just recently started seeing a counsellor and his words echo yours….he speaks of the No Contact rule…and how the EU man thrives on even negative attention…..grrrr…I just sent a negative text to my ex….He announced he wants us to get together tonight…not even asking me my plans……..From now forward, i will remind myself of your words…..”Indifferance!” Thank you….These posts are very helpful. Ally
Marks,
Please do not put any more energy into this man, it’s not worth it. You’re only hurting yourself!
What saved me was getting out and staying very busy (classes, yoga, meditation, Meetup groups, dancing etc….). The benefit of all of this is that I found new interests and made a ton of new, great friends. This also made me recognize-when I had a new active life-that I had some toxic friends that needed to be let go.
You have a choice: you can remain angry or change your life for the better. It’s up to you! 🙂
I have done some primal screaming into a pillow from the bottom of my gut. At the bottom of that I found a nasty pool of toxic shame…shame for having needs, shame for trying to get them met through abusive men, shame for being human, shame for bad judgment, shame for giving away my power, shame for thinking I was still a little girl with no options and not able to just walk away and get out…shame for not being nice, shame for being too nice, shame for sticking around for more and more pain, shame for not being ‘good enough’ for him to love me, shame shame shame driving all of that rage that was so difficult to feel that I wanted to lash out and transfer it to someone else. Then I began to forgive and accept myself, my humanity, my perfect imperfection..I began to love the shame, love the rage, love the mistakes, the neediness, all of it…and I feel an internal change happening that is so amazing, so free…
What I did (after screaming into the pillow and having a tantrum on the floor) was to take all of the YUCK and imagine it was my soft silky pillow. And I held it like a baby and rocked it and stroked it and loved it and something is changing inside of me…something amazing that I can only barely describe…
This morning an ex called because something I did to disentangle from our former business relationship created a situation that surprised him (I didn’t anticipate him being affected, it wasn’t my intention) and created a huge amount of stress and fear for him. He wanted me to fix it. He offered to pay me (about 4x what I’m making in a week right now). I stood firm…no. No. No, thank you for the offer and No. He apologized for overstepping my boundaries a few weeks ago. He was very sorry. I felt guilt, I felt sorry, I felt pity, I felt on the verge of tears…and No. I didn’t mean to impact him and it wasn’t my job clean up after his sloppy business practices. I was kind and firm, and apparently he found a way to deal with it on his own while I buried myself in drawing.
Someone suggested I wonder, what the heck am I going to do with all of that creative energy that I used to squander chasing unavailable men and fighting and arguing with them and trying so hard to make them love me…and I’m really curious to find out! It’s so new to me that it’s sometimes scary, the idea of ease and flow and refusing to engage in unhealthy behavior! What will we all do???
Sunshine – What a nice post. On my way to have a conversation with my pillow 🙂
Thank you – I needed that today.
Ramona
Sunshine,
“What will we all do???” Live happier healthier lives! I know I am!
What will we do now? We’ll be happy and at peace. We will do things that make us happy rather than worrying about some idiot who never measures up to our expectations. Eventually we might meet a man to share our fab lives with, instead of constantly chasing for the unobtainable. And if not, doesn’t matter, because life is rich enough as it is when you’re happily flying solo. 🙂
I’m glad you’re feeling at peace already. It’s a bumpy road, but life is sooooo much better when you have inner strength and know what you will and won’t tolerate. It will be much easier to weed out the oxygen theives! They won’t even be remotely tempting to you anymore.
so girls, if i got this right… emotionally unavaliable men do this kind of bullshit? not the normal decent guys…
ana
i am considerably distanced now from the hurt i’ve experienced in previous relationships. i’ve been to counselling and read nat’s site avidly. as such, most of the anger i had towards the exes has dissipated and given me more clarity. it’s not “he is bad and i am good”. “that is a good man, and that is a bad man”.
there are many reasons why someone may be EU that are perfectly understandable – if you’ve been abused as a child and not dealt with the emotional aftermath, your spouse just died, your child is very sick, you just got made redundant, you’re going through a divorce, your parents’ marriage was a carcrash you never got over etc. that can make you unavailable for a relationship even if you find yourself in one. you are just not firing on all cylinders, you’re pessimistic about life and relationships, you’re depressed, you feel claustropobhic in a relationships, you find yourself feeling submerged and look for the escape route, you don’t think you would make a good life partner, you believe all relationships have a sellby date after which it’s just mindless boredom, you think all men cheat or you have so little connection with your own emotions that you will never connect with anyone else’s. that’s not a bad person per se, but it’s certainly someone whose beliefs make a proper relationship impossible.
of course there are people who do very bad things – the abusers, liars, conmen/women. but i don’t think the casual men/women fall into that category. it’s still very hurtful of course which is why we must take care of ourselves. that does not involve fixing the other person. they must do that themselves, assuming that they want to and it’s likely they don’t at least for a very long time. if ever. and always only when they are single and prompted to reflect on themselves or with a new partner who clearly won’t take any crap. once you’re in the “casual slot” you don’t get promoted out of it. you’ve already demonstrated to them, sadly, that you’re not serious relationship material because you failed to take yourself seriously.
anyway, they’re not the judge of us, we don’t need their approval, get yourself out of there!
I so wish that I could be where you guys are today. I met my EUM/Narc through a a school network site. He was my boyfriend at 16 and broke my heart for the first time. Three years ago, when his email appeared after 40 years (!), I was in 7th Heaven. We met, everything was magical. He had all the lines, never been in love like this before, never loved my ex wife. want to marry you etc, etc and I fell for the lot. Even though he lived in a complete mess of a flat (still does), no photos, no pictures, no mirrors and barely any furniture, piles of cardboard boxes even though he had lived there for 3 years. Two months later he dumped me by email saying he couldn’t continue the relationship and that he would stay single for the rest of his life. He signed off saying he would always love me and then puts his first name and surname – as if I didn’t know who it was?? I had a breakdown, lost two stone, felt like crap but when the email came a month later. saying could we be friends – I was right back there. Yo-yo’ed ever since. He doesn’t want sex. He barely wants to see me and yet I can’t kick him, Tried NC but decided it was better to have him in my life as a friend than not at all. Living with the constant anxiety feeling in the pit of my stomach. Yesterday I went to see him (he lives 70 miles away) as a ‘friend’ and he actually said ‘ I love you so much’ & ‘Why don’t we get married!’ I know I should have walked out then. What the hell is wrong with me and when do I get my epiphany? Maybe I just need to keep reading these posts and something will click that gives me strength. Thanks Nat and all of you for being there.
@ Goldie – Nothing is wrong with you. Absolutely nothing. I went through an almost identical experience after reuniting with my FL from decades ago. There are biological and chemical responses in the brain that are activated by this type of reunion. They have an addictive quality that make it very hard to walk away, and keep us obsessing. There is a researcher in the US who has dedicated her career to these types of reunions. Her name is Nancy Kalish. If you do a search you will find the site. It is filled with people traumatized by this experience. I walked away from mine and when he pursued went completely NC. I almost came apart at the seams and my life spiraled down. I am several years out of it now, but it was bar none the most painful, humiliating experience of my life. Seek help to deal with this and be gentle with yourself.
Goldigirl, i really feel for you. It is a tragedy that this man has affected you in such an extreme way. It might be an idea to see a counsellor, as many other people on this site have done. Sometimes our feelings are so deep that we can’t work through them on our own and need some guidance.
Best of luck to you 🙂
Exactly what I experienced for several months. Extremely early on in the dating process he referred to us as being in a ‘relationship’. Normally I would be suspicious of this, but I was so taken by his good looks and charm. I then proceeded to become that confused and helpless ‘passenger’ (the term captures the experience perfectly), while he took liberties to play around with the temperature (hot and cold). The catch with this “relationship” was that he was a single dad and had so many other responsibilities so I kept cutting him slack and making excuses to myself and others for his unavailability.
Looking back, I feel like he “signed me up” for a relationship from the start, without even getting to know me, in order to secure an ego stroke for the next few months as he goes on with his own life. I finally caught on. And moved on. Thanks for this insightful post, it has validated my experience and helped answer a lot of lingering questions.
Nat – after every one of your posts, I think to myself, that’s it. You’ve covered it all, you can’t possibly top that! And then you come out swinging with an even better post.
I wish I had read this post two years ago. It so elegantly and succinctly explains and summarizing what is to many (and certainly to me) such a bewildering and raw experience. Thank you! xo done.
Nat – this is an excellent post! In a nutshell, this is the situation I have been in, on and off, with the same person for the past two years. I opted out for the final time about a week and a half ago. My new year’s resolution (one of them) was to take off my rose colored glasses and see the situation between me and this person as it truly was, not as I hoped it would become.
Once I did that, I was very uncomfortable and dissatisfied with the way things were.
I knew I would never change the guy, and I knew the only solution was to opt out.
Opting out didn’t feel GREAT, however, what I did avoid was another weekend of anxiety, highs and lows. I reached a point where – guess what – the fun of spending time with him and the pleasure of the physical connection just wasn’t worth it. I have fun with my friends. Once the rose colored glasses were off, the physical connection felt empty to me. I was no longer projecting what I wanted to feel (not sure if that’s the right way of putting it) during our physical connection. So, it felt empty, almost like I didn’t really know the person with whom I was being physical. So – the physical part was very easy to leave.
Thanks for the post! It was very timely for me. I am glad to know I am not alone in what I was experiencing.
Goldie Girl, I get where you’re at completely.
So many times, I said the same thing: “What the hell is wrong with me and when do I get my epiphany?” They give you crap, yet you can’t kick them.
The turning point for me was when I was in so much pain in the ‘relationship’ (if it can be called that), it was less painful to be out of it. I just got sick of that gnawing in my stomach, the sleepless nights, the tears, the anxiety, the misery of feeling at someone else’s mercy.
It struck me in the end that I was little better than a call girl or an escort. He just called me up when he wanted me, and left me alone the rest of the time. The difference being that a call girl actually gets paid!
Hun, the only way you’re going to end this pain is to get the hell outa there.
@Steph=”He just called me up when he wanted me, and left me alone the rest of the time. The difference being that a call girl actually gets paid!”
Oh that felt really painful to read. I’m so sorry, that must feel ghastly.
Yeah that was the extent of my last few “casual relationships” and how they played out – seemed like in the first few weeks of intensity that we were naturally going to progress into a relationship, but instead of going forward, we were going backwards where I was wondering what was going on. The truth is, I was so out of touch with myself, feelings and reality that I knew what was going on, but didn’t want to face reality. The reason why I was attracted to these casual relationships because I was afraid of dealing with my feelings, it was through these experiences I began to feel pain, then took responsibility for it, then seen my part in it, then learned about becoming a healthy person, what healthy relationships were, etc… in other words, started becoming aware of these destructive unconscious patterns. Your right, you cant force substance.
One of your best. 🙂
I’ve been reading this blog for about a year but never posted anything until now. I guess I didn’t fully get it until now.
I think what was so hard, at least for me, is to comprehend how someone could be so emotionally disconnected as to treat you this way. My EUM would often make the excuse that he “never knew I wanted anything more.” This after nearly three years of back-and-forth, of me getting upset over and over about his unreliability, him calling me his soulmate…yada, yada, yada.
I always thought the fact that he was still contacting me meant he did love me and didn’t want to lose me out of his life. Now I know that he kept coming back because I was giving him so much for very little in return. He doesn’t miss me when I’m gone. He misses his ego stroke.
I am going to forgive myself. I am going to move on and I am going to fill my life with people who can show me real love, trust and respect.
Natalie, you are a godsend. Thank you for sharing your gifts of healing with me and so many others. Hugs 🙂
Nice to have you post a comment after a year! Same here.
Sooo good, Nat! You hit my relationship right on the head! Tho it didn’t start out that way. Five years past and it got more casual at it went, and I didn’t want to admit it and was too naive to see it in time.
But so many are hard on those of us who are the “passengers” ; we’re “asking for it”, or stupid, or needy. It seems to me that we have a RIGHT to expect a normal, progressive relationship. We’re caught unaware- yes, there are red flags, some tiny some perhaps huge- but no relationship is fairy tale. So sometimes, it’s omg, there it is, you look back and see it all so clearly.
My guy, the primo conflict avoider, often didn’t want to respond when I brought any of this up, didn’t want to talk about it. I’d tell him don’t label me needy, or desperate- if he wanted to dish out the crap, the I love you’s, I miss you’s, the future talk b.s., then why shouldn’t I expect?? He was the one that had the screwed up view of how things should be, and didn’t want to expose himself- if he even realized what he was doing- as you described him “they need attention or even a human reminder that they don’t have the problems that they actually do have”. Being naive, and my first relationship after a long marriage, I didn’t want to believe it and did what I could to deny it all to myself, so it took a while for it to really hit me in the face, and by then the damage had been done. I’m still reeling from it. He showed me he really couldn’t be trusted, yet I wanted to trust him. If I had called him on it, we might have been able to part, deal with the issues, then salvage things, but I fear now it’s too late. I allowed it to go on too long.
Tess
You do have a right to a proper committed relationship if that’s what you want – and they have the right to be casual if that’s what they want. The key is for one or both parties to realise theyr’e not on the same page and to call it quits. It’s more complicated than that in real life, of course, with all the miscommunication, lying, and self-deception out there but it’s a long day in hell waiting for a man/woman to give you something that they don’t want to give.
When my boyfriend left after three years, he had little to pack up and take with him.. his clothes, his toothbrush, a guitar.. when I think about it, it was indicative of our relationship. I invested the 90 percent.. I was left with a full on nesting situation that I, pretty much alone, had been building. I liked his “minimalist” attitude in the beginning but really I was dealing with a non-committal man. He was a minimalist in dealing with our relationship as well.This is where downsizing is not cool. Downsize and feng shui your wardrobe or garage space for for Pete Sakes, don’t down size your partner!! I remember a few times he’d referred to our apartment that we “shared” as being my apartment. (???) Eventually he was just having his mail sent to his office address. I’m thinking, sorry.. I was under the assumption you lived here but I see I am just a Bed and Breakfast that you frequent.. cheers mate.
I’m learning through this post that it isn’t the length of the relationship that determines whether it’s casual or committed. 3 years in and he was still behaving like we were just having sleep overs. I wasn’t a one night stand but a three year stand and it really made no difference.
I understand how things start out as casual. Not all of us can jump in right away with full conviction that we are mates for life. Penguins do it…I admire this species. : ) But eventually, it becomes clear where it’s going or if it’s going anywhere. In the end, I was the only participant that was a) willing and b) trying to gain momentum to move forward. I was like one of those old Volkswagen vans trying to make it up hill.
While I don’t expect a man I am interested in to “pop the question” a few weeks in, I’d like to determine sooner than later whether or not he’s going to be willing to give me what I need and he should expect that from me as well. I am soooo not casual.
Wow Gingerbell, I can vouch for the concept that the length of the relationship has no bearing on whether it’s casual or committed. I too was “like one of those old Volkswagen vans trying to make it up hill.” and constantly being dragged back down… I lived with an AC/narcissist for 8 years, payed most of the bills, filled the fridge with food, bought furniture, saucepans, bedding etc etc and paid for holidays, while he spent any money he earned on black cabs, booze and cocaine. If I asked him if whether he was going to be in that evening, let alone what his plans were for the weekend, he would say I was hassling him and to stop trying to pin him down! And he wasn’t interested in sex (not with me anyway…)
Looking back on it what a mug was I?? So many red flags it is ridiculous. But in the thick of it I just couldn’t see. He kept me hooked with outrageous future faking, we were going to have kids and he even proposed to me, properly with a ring – but then surprise surprise, when the wedding was booked and arranged he blew FREEZING cold, did a disappearing act from which I deduced the nuptials were off. As you say – cheers mate!
Why on earth I would have wanted to tie myself to such a loser is a mystery to me now. And on the plus side thank god I didn’t go through with the wedding and this unforgivable behaviour was the catalyst that made me move out and leave him, but I lost the years between 28 and 35 to this joke of a man. As someone commented the the other day, if only this blog existed in 2002 and I could go back and show it to myself, things could have turned out very differently…
I am recovered and now in a happy healthy relationship but thank you Nat and BR readers for helping me understand what happened in retrospect (five and a half years ago now) x
Lizzy, thanks for your story. I often feel like I have been robbed years of my life as well. I’ve been told through some sources that the universe makes no mistakes and sometimes hands us some lessons that are often brutal, lengthy and hard to understand at the time. It’s hopeful to me that you got to the other side and hopefully not feeling as though you’re “hassling” the man because you expect decency and kindness.. I mean, Who do we think we are?!! Expecting some gratitude and respect. Part of my problem, is thinking my Joker is going to become a King down the road for someone else, and I’ll miss out. Let me guess, your AC/Narc didn’t suddenly morph into the man of your dreams post relationship right? If I had to place bets, I’m gonna say my AC/EUM/NARC/ won’t either.
Gingerbell – yes it really takes time to recover from something like this. I think a person with rock-solid self-esteem would not get into the situation in the first place, and then being treated in this way for years compounds the problem by eroding your self esteem even more, which takes time and work to build up again (or it did in my case) Hence me reading this blog five years later – all part of the ongoing healing process I guess.
I agree it is comforting to look for a reason why it happened to you rather than just feeling you’ve lost those years. The most comforting thought I have now is that ultimately I escaped from the situation and that it’s not still going on. If he hadn’t been cornered by the ultimate ‘pinning down’ of marriage, it might well be! I’m grateful that he showed me his true colours in the clearest possible way leaving me with no choice then but to cut my losses, gather up what was left of my self respect and run…
I too was worried that my AC would suddenly become the perfect man for someone else or in my case make good on the promises he’d made, (BS about being be rich/famous/successful if only I stuck with him) somewhere down the line and I was determined after my years of investment (emotional, financial and otherwise) in him – as Natalie describes – to get something in return. Now I realise if I’d got the ‘pay-off’ of marriage and children with him, I’d be much worse off now.
And you guessed right – the Joker hasn’t become a King! Quite satisfyingly I heard recently he has moved into his latest girlfriend/victim/sucker’s tiny housing association flat in a part of London so rough they have bars on the windows. So it’s true – these people really don’t change, they just look for the next person who will provide them with what they need with the minimal inconvenience to themselves and are experts in talking a right load of old bollocks to keep us hooked. I know it’s not easy but don’t waste more time even thinking about him, in him moving out you’ve actually dodged a bullet, so try to focus on being thankful for that.
Love and luck to you xx
Gingerbell,
They certainly don’t morph suddenly, and a lot of times, they never do. I divorced my ex-husband 18 years ago. He was a Joker while we were married, and still is, from what I heard from his current gf. He has tried to contact me by phone or facebook over the past year, and I have not and will not answer. But that doesn’t stop him, all the while he has a gf!!!
Sometimes they do change, but most often they don’t. If you work through this and come out the other side i promise you, you won’t care what he’s become! You will have too high an opinion of yourself to give him another chance, based on how he treated you, even if he did come crawling back. I personally wouldn’t give a damn whether or not my ex changed or where he is or what he’s doing. I have total indeifference and that’s because i am in a much better place mentally.
Nat, your style is like a ‘sledgehammer’ and it works. Thank you.
“This is why so many people get caught out – because it ‘looks’ like a relationship and may even ‘quack’ like a relationship, but without intimacy, progression, commitment, consistency, balance and a mutual care, trust, and respect, and then eventual love, it doesn’t have the meat or the equipment to walk like a relationship. ”
Why is it, I wonder, so many people (ok men) are afraid to commit? Is this to do with fear of failure (if they don’t try they haven’t failed?)
Cathy,
Unfortunately, they need commitment phobic women to engage with. There are a hell of a lot of EUW out there, too!
Cathy you said:
“Why is it, I wonder, so many people (ok men) are afraid to commit? Is this to do with fear of failure (if they don’t try they haven’t failed?)”
I have often wondered about this myself, but maybe it’s as simple as men and women having vastly different reproductive strategies. However whatever the reason men and women who don’t want to commit in relationships cause problems for those that do.
I don’t know about you Cathy but mind reading is not one of my talents and I think its far better to cease wondering why people do their “stuff” and can’t or won’t commit and to concentrate on ourselves as men and women who do want comittment and decide to seek out those people who really are wanting the same sort of life where relationships are concerned.
As NML has said many times on here you can’t turn a sow’s ear into a silk purse so why waste valuable life thinking about it!
Indeed! There are a million reasons why EU men are like this – each personal and specific to the man in question and the lists are endless. The women and men who post on this site were/are all EU – why are/ were we like that? I guess each of us has a different reason based on our lives and experiences. Best to focus on the reasons we/you are EU so that only the availble ones are given brain energy in future. That’s enough to be going on with for now! 🙂
Minky
here are some of the reasons i was EU:
– brought up in a very religious and cold household
– father was away for long periods
– physically and emotionally abused for years by my mother (she still would if she had the chance)
– bullied at school, experienced a lot of racism
– zero social skills as a child/young person
– constantly stuck in crap jobs with low pay
– recurrent depression
– and anxiety
– no desire to get married or have kids
– no clue what relationships are for
now, did any guy, stand a chance? no freakin way!
yes, i have done a lot of work on myself but it was absolutely not because of a man. in fact, the relationships i had confirmed to me for a very long time that i was basically all right – otherwise why would so many men want to be in longterm relationships with me and even want to marry me?
it took five years of singledom, a near-miss with a MM, this site, heart palpitations and anxiety, and a take-no-prisoners-counsellor for me to see the light.
fellow women – it is OUTSIDE YOUR POWER to change these people! save your energy for yourself, you’re gonna need it – it’s hard work but worth it. he is just a distraction.
Thank you Grace! It is indeed outside our power to change other people, that was exactly my point. There’s no point trying to figure out why other people are EU, enough to figure out why we are EU and do something about it!
Alison & Live My Gorgeous Life
Sorry guys, you must on the other side of the world – sometimes there seems to be a long wait with all the comments then other times, it is almost overwhelming with the number of replies – so I missed these.
Alison, yes after reading this post I must admit I have still been dealing with commitment issues – thus attracting the guy who did! This year, I intend to blast out the last remnants of that!
Live My Gorgeous Life
I am reading a book at the moment about the battle going on in your mind (by Joyce Meyer) and she explains how a wandering, wondering mind is not good.
Then there’s the wisdom of the grandpop’s – “it is a new era, start living in it!”
Dear L
I’ve wondered the same thing as u exactly! I found that Christian Carter thing before this blog, and reading that ‘catchhimandkeephim’ stuff made me think “ohhh that’s where I went wrong” and wishing I hadn’t made so many mistakes… But I found this site and realised that EUMs are a whole different breed of men… They work on their own terms, it doesn’t matter what you do, they don’t want to give… A decent guy and person who cares about you, even in the slightest, will feel distinctively uncomfortable about hurting you. Not every guy who doesn’t want a relationship is an AC, it’s the games and manipulative behaviour that makes them one. You have to understand it really isn’t about you. The guy I dated after the EUM I fell for was a wonderful person, he did ‘all the right things’and I really wished I developed feelings for him – but I didn’t. We were never physical in any way as I was really burned by the EUM, and this guy really showed me how to treat a lady (restored my faith in men actually) but I just didn’t develop feelings for him beyong friendship.. So I was honest with him and ended it. Could I have hung around for all the fringe benefits of a relationship without being in one and use the guy for an ego stroke? Yes, but I didn’t want to be an assclown and I saw I had a decent person in front of me. These men are messed up. I scratched my head trying to figure out what happened for ages, blaming myself and wishing I could have been the woman that christian carter describes. Who knows, maybe it works but it requires faking who you are and acting like you are someone you are not just to entice some stupid guy!
Would love to hear what anyone else thinks!
Heya Maya,
Sorry to hear your heart got broken. I wonder though if the guy that did treat you well actually revved up his interest some more, whether you would have been!
Twice in my life I had amazing best friends where we would do everything together and above all have fun AND respect each other. Years later when I caught up with each one, I thought – wow!
Since then I know it is wiser to set standards and have some base values in common. Best friends need to be the foundation.
Best luck in your love walk.
Maya,you are totally right. I was thinking about some of these books written by men to help us loving and open women “decode” their unattainable hearts. When there is a sort of guideline to play the game and help us unnaturally entice some guy, is it really worth it? I mean, fair enough we all have our opinions, but what really erks me is the advice to help us sort of tip toe around these men until they respond the way we want them to.
I think it was very noble of you to call it with that guy and end it when you knew it wasn’t right. If only so many others were as responsible as you. : )
Great post,Nat.As with all your posts on emotional availability/assclownery it struck a chord with me because wow have I been the passenger on so many rides and guess what? There’s no variety,it’s always the same view along the way and always the same dead end destination. These days I’d crawl any road on my knees rather than ever be such a passenger again.But as you say,Natalie,this foolish,pseudo cool behaviour is dangerously socially acceptable and that’s a big problem.Most of my girlfriends have fallen for it.One is a friends with benefits to a guy living on the other side of the world.She’s completely broke from spending every cent going over there two and three times a year to keep this “relationship” going.How crazy is that! I’m all out of patience with people who can’t see,won’t see that they’re being used because I guess,it reminds me that I,too,was that woman.My girlfriends used to advise me to hang on to the dude of the moment and bide my time waiting for the big prize.Men don’t like commitment so we must sneakily try to force them into it.And this was backed up by a steady but profitable stream of nonsensical literature about how to rein in your guy.All this despite our woman’s intuition screaming that this is so not how it should be.Natalie,you are ahead of your time because eventually society will view this shoddy, stupid behaviour for what it is and relationship integrity will once again be in vogue.But in the meantime you are one of the few lights in a dim world of casual nonsense.Keep it shining ,Natalie,you really are changing lives.
Kay, I agree with every word that you wrote! Couldn’t have put it better myself.
Maya, I too went down the Christian Carter route by reading his writings and soon came to the conclusion why do WE have to twist ourselves inside out and play a sort of ‘game’ in order to ‘catch HIM’.
My gut screamed out that Christian seemed to lay much of the emphasis of ‘change’ on the doorstep of the woman and in some ways he is absolutely correct. In some cases and scenarios he is right (e.g. needy woman with low self-esteem and the way she throws away her own integrity to chase a guy – change your actions, don’t be desperate and stalk a guy, it’s unattractive to men). HOWEVER, my gut screamed that the EUM/AC I had come across had and would be a complete idiot with anyone! It wasn’t about ME per se (even he freely admitted that when I finished with him, hands up!) and what I was doing wrong.
My role in the scenario, which I take full responsibility for, was that I didn’t kick him to the curb sooner. That is what I had to do inner work on. How I could love myself more, spot, have enough self-esteem, integrity and boundaries for myself to NOT engage and literally WASTE TIME and emotional energy with those EUM/ACs. Thus freeing up my mind, freeing up myself and bad habits, freeing up inner resentment and anger and my self-esteem to recognise and want to engage with and naturally ‘attract’ someone better. When you are ‘free’ of those negative vibes, it changes the whole dynamic of how you interact. Not tying myself up in knots playing games and trying to be someone I am not…… in order to get my man.
That just becomes second guessing, energy draining and tiring.
I didn’ t think Christian Carter took into account a certain ‘breed’ of man, of which there are many, many around, with serious emotional/mental issues walking around appearing to be ‘normal’ but any slight interaction with them shows that they are anything but that.
Unfortunately, they are the ones that women are coming across out there in the dating arena and they are the ones that heavily contribute towards relationship chaos and havoc.
You could turn yourself inside out for such men (and many women have to their detriment and have lost themselves and their souls in the process) and it would still have not made one iota of a difference on the relationship meltdown outcome.
Unfortunately, a lot of dating advice does not emphasise this mega-important fact enough and we women end up blaming ourselves, thinking ‘what could I have done to have avoided this outcome?’ The answer is ‘nothing’.
Am I the only girl here who’s unavailable and an assclown? (I mean, I learnt from the best.) The hot’n’cold behaviour – which I’ve been engaging in a lot lately – is just own confusion and selfishness. I don’t mean anything mean with it. But if someone’s so stupid to like me so much that my behaviour hurts them, well .. it sort of serves them right? I didn’t ask for it, come on, don’t project your naive romantic dreams on me. Not everyone’s ultimate life goal is the perfect romantic relationship, and you shouldn’t assume that it is.
Haha, no you are totally not the only one. There isn’t a single thing I’ve experienced in a relationship that hasn’t been a perfect mirror of myself at some point. At first it was really painful to face…and now on the other side of it is FREEDOM.
??????,
Are you serious?
Why would you choose to be so selfish and treat others poorly? Why not move on if you know they have feeling? Certainly you know the difference between what’s right and wrong?
How about seeing a professional and treat your issues?
“But if someone’s so stupid to like me so much that my behaviour hurts them, well .. it sort of serves them right?”
Brilliant – i think this sums up how a lot of ACs and EUs out there feel.
People can’t help how they feel, so being hurt for liking you so much doesn’t serve them right. Staying with you if you told them you have no intention of having a relationship: yes, serve them right. That’s exactly what i did – i knew there was no relationship coming and i hung around anyway, putting up with crap. Serves me right!
???
“Not everyone’s ultimate life goal is the perfect romantic relationship, and you shouldn’t assume that it is.”
You’re entirely right on that one. And I don’t think Natalie or any of the rest of us are assuming that.
Firstly I don’t think the words “casual” and “relationship” fit well together because they are contradictory and mutually exclusive.Some people want a relationship and more people want a casual arrangement.And casual arrangements are fine.Young people do it all the time,the not so young do it at various points in their lives when either unwilling or unable to do a relationship.Even many full on relationships start as casual arrangements.Nobody is going to do the whole commitment thing on the first date,can you just imagine it! We’d all scamper off to assclownville. Casual arrangements are fine.The problem is when the lines get blurred.When the unavailable use the cloak of a “casual relationship” to get their own needs met or maybe to deceive and be future fakers.Or when those low in self esteem can’t see the wood for the trees and assume that by hanging in there,the barely there relationship will become a meaningful one. Does it serve them right as you say? Maybe yes, maybe no. Some people won’t see,can’t see the folly of their ways.I think the bottom line is that casual arrangements are fine once each party is honest and ok with it.If not,well, no point wasting your time.Abort mission and go after your dreams.Which,for many of us,is indeed,that perfect romantic relationship.
???….I agree a perfect romantic relationship isn’t everyone’s goal but your post sound a little narcissistic. Narcissism is the personality trait of egotism, vanity, conceit, or simple selfishness.
You said “But if someone’s so stupid to like me so much that my behaviour hurts them, well .. it sort of serves them right?” If someone is so stupid, you hit the nail on the head when you called yourself unavailable and an assclown. I agree with Allison maybe some perfessional help before you inflict anymore intentional pain and it is intentional. Its in every word you wrote.
I wonder what the response would have been if a man had been the author of that post?
Part of your confusion may stem from a negative belief about yourself that you’re showing here…that people who like you enough to be hurt by your behavior are stupid (cuz anyone smart wouldn’t really care for you that much). Which also reflects that you think YOU are stupid if you like someone enough to be hurt by their behavior. Clear that up and you’ll likely be a lot less confused, enjoy better relationships, and hurt less people 🙂
???
“If someone is so stupid to like me that much”: wow, thanks for making me see how awful that sounds coming from someone else.
When I was young, I liked a couple of different boys “too much,” i.e. more than they liked me. While often the hurt of this non-reciprocation is normal, and a part of growing up, these guys began a covert and public bullying campaign of racial and sexual/verbal abuse that lasted for two years and really did make me feel like I deserved it and that I was ‘stupid’ for liking them.
After that, whenever anyone liked me that way, I had a strange contempt for them. Almost as though I needed to punish “that behaviour” the way these guys punished me for mine. Really, someone looking at me with doe eyes almost made me want to puke, or flick them, or something.
Your AC post actually opens my eyes. I understand better now what I’m trying to correct when I go after guys with a bit of a cruel streak, and potentially what is behind me being turned off or bored by “nice” guys.
The old me, if I were a guy, probably would have wanted to date you, to somehow prove to myself I could get a jerk to finally see that I am a good person.
These guys that like you aren’t poor suckers until you treat them that way. If they put up with it, that’s their half of the problem. The mistreatment you think they ‘deserve’ because they express wanting to be near you is your abusiveness. It’s sad that so many of us learn to equate devotion with slavishness somewhere along the way, and that we split off into those that step willingly into the shackles and those that yank the chains.
In fact, this is such a stunning revelation, I share with you something I published back when I was the EUW, or now, I’m thinking AC! I was really torn up about my situation, my relationship with a man that rushed me into things, that was super devoted, but hiding other traits. He desperately wanted me to stay; I blew hot and cold, I guess, for five years:
Stupid Love Song
I’m in love with a stupid man
How stupid, how stupid is he?
He can’t say ‘supposedly’
he can’t sing a note
he can’t stop loving me.
I’m in love with a stupid man,
How stupid, how stupid am I?
I must be stupid
If I think he’s stupid
yet can’t find a better guy.
I’m in love with a stupid man
How stupid, how stupid is he?
I tell him he’s stupid,
he tells me he’s not
then pours me a cup of tea.
I’m in love with a stupid man
How stupid, how stupid am I?
I always wanted
the quick-tongued kind
but they always made me cry.
I’m in love with a stupid man.
How stupid, how stupid is he?
Goes to work every day,
falls hard into bed
for no more than to stay with me.
I’m in love with a stupid man.
How stupid can you get?
I’ve tried to dump him
A million times
But he hasn’t left me yet.
How could I love a stupid man?
How stupid could I be?
I might be stupid
but only he’s stupid
enough to keep loving me.
If people are “stupid” to like you, why date them? Doesn’t that also make you “stupid” to date “stupid” people?
It doesn’t “serve anyone right.” No human being on this earth deserves to be treated like crap. Unfortunately, some people have backgrounds of abuse or parental dysfunction, or they’re vulnerable from a recent divorce or loss, which can cause them to get caught up with, and put up with, people who would label them “stupid” for liking them.
Thanks for the reminder, however, that a lot of emotionally unavailable people lack empathy. The hardest thing for me to get over from my EUM was his increasingly piss-poor treatment and lowering of standards/expectations. Especially this weekend I’ve been hurting pretty badly and have been tempted to break my rules and get in touch with him. I’ve been dealing with a lot of anger. I should not take it personally, however. The crap treatment is a reflection on him, not on me. I do not deserve it. I am not stupid. And I don’t need to get in touch with him and communicate how angry at him I am. Every second, minute, hour, day that I don’t get in touch with him, I am communicating with him. My actions of noncommunication are communicating that I don’t want the lazy, lousy treatment. Shame on him.
Two Assclowns walk into a bar.. do they leave with each other? Not likely.. but they should because it leaves the emotionally available for the emotionally available instead of a nice person and emotionally torturous person combo. Call me crazy, but I think it’s weird to be a proud Assclown. Narcissists are proud too which makes sense I guess but also seems like an odd self proclamation…
Learning,
I think you make a very important point about non-communication that we often fail to fully appreciate when we are trying to remain NC.
If we think about all of the EU’s silent treatment of us, his non-communication, the disappearing acts, the putting us on a no text, no phone call diet… whatever you want to call it, but all of the non-talking behaviour that is a major characteristic of the EU… all of this was communicating something to us, something very hurtful… and we must see that NC is a form of “communication” – it sends a very clear message, same as his silent treatment sent to us….the NC message is not only clear, it is loud and clear… actions speak louder, much louder than words, much louder than the angry texts and emails that we are tempted to send just to make sure he “gets it”… when, in fact, by sending him these all he does get is that we are still wanting to hear from him!!
It was my birthday last week (a big one!) and despite myself I felt gutted that I never got any happy birthday message of any description – whatever – from this man (the EU) that I have known and been “close” to for ten years… (have been NC now for five months)… and I have been tempted to have something to say to him for sending me no birthday card or message at all… but I haven’t… I am too disgusted with him – after all his empty promises that it all comes to this, this nothingness. It truly beggars belief. And your comment, Learning, has reminded me that I am already saying it all, by saying absolutely nothing. I hope he’s getting it! I like to think that the reason I got no birthday message is because he is already “getting it”, but in my heart of hearts I know it’s just cos he’s an arse.
You have to understand how the limbic system/reptilian brain works…there is NOTHING RATIONAL about it, it’s the way our brains work for survival…when we are victimized by someone, we often take on the way they victimized us as a “model of power”, it’s how we literally survive as children, when tribal acceptance really means, to a child’s mind, the difference between life and death. As we get older, we either come to a place where we become aware of our behavior and change it because it isn’t serving us anymore, or don’t. It isn’t about being a ‘good person’ or a ‘bad person’, it is simply maladaptive behavior that helped us survive, not just in our lives but as a species up to this point. Judging it morally isn’t helpful, in fact, it only serves to separate us from our amazing, beautiful humanity and the complexity if our systems.
Sorry, I disagree with you.
As a child, I was called “too sensitive” by teachers, for feeling sad and wanting to stay inside during recess when I was teased or left out by other kids who were part of the dominant ethnic group (which is really a white ethnic minority in the U.S., but was the dominant ethnic group at the public school I attended). My parents were even asked to come in by my kindergarden teacher so that she coud talk to them about my “sensitivity.”
Funny, other kids who were abused as I was by the same ethnic group are quick to be like ???? above and you in that they consider sensitive, caring, giving, empathetic people “weak” and take people like us (my husband included) for granted.
It took me a looong time to figure out that being nice isn’t even enough. Under your own analysis, it can be faked, to survive, to whatever.
Empathy and sympathy, over and above being nice, are key. THAT is what it means to be human. To be remembered when you die, for the empathy and sympathy you had towards others.
Oh, and my family (parents) grew up without fathers in a very poor society. They are the nicest and most successful people in their commujnity (ethnic or otherwise).
Fearless–
EXCELLENT analysis.
SHAME on them indeed! NC and ignoring them is EXACTLY what they deserve, and teh message they need to get!
And thank you for your advice last week, too.
Used,
It sounds like it was very painful for you to be shamed as a child for your sensitivity. It was for me, too. Maybe you can understand why I no longer find shaming others or clinging to moral judgments to be useful in relating with people. It’s too painful and only separates me from my compassion and empathy. It doesn’t mean I have to tolerate crap behavior, I just walk away from it now instead of arguing with it or trying to change it.
the comment that just because you are in it for 3, 6 or 7 years does not mean it’s a relationship, is spot on. i kept thinking that because we dated for 5 years it meant true love. not. it just meant that a situation was continuing … like many other things in life that endure but it doesn’t mean anything necessarily. this blog defines my relationhip when i could not.
i have to say i’ve done NC since dec. 12th. it worked. he texted et al … then got me over there to pick up something i left behind. he was totally surprised when i didn’t even take off my coat: “no i can’t stay. i have to go home and watch the presidential address with my mother,” mumbling and looking like i was looking for the nearest escape hatch … as so many men do to women when they are trying to make a sly, fast exit … from the relationship. his last words were: “don’t be a stranger!” uttered in the tone of desperate hope and cajolement.
i drove home triumphant. i BLEW HIM OFF like the many times he has me. i now am in the driver’s seat and it’s the only way to end something.
i am, i admit, vacillating, sometimes doing the bargaining bit. but i am biting my tongue and working on things in my life that need addressing.
and if i ever do decide to contact him again, i’ll be the one who’s sought after … though i am not going that route for some more months, if at all.
After reading this post and all these comments I am a little worried that I am actually the perpetrator of a casual relationship, and really would not like to be the cause of some of the hurt that the comments here are talking about.
I just came out of a long term relationship a few months ago, and have spent about 6.5 out of the last 7 years in long term relationships and have never really been single. Also I am moving overseas in one year from now and therefore do not feel like I should commit to anyone.
However I have been out meeting people and have now been dating a guy for about a month and a half. We spend a lot of time together, we’ve met each others friends, are affectionate in public, sleep together etc but have never had ‘the conversation’ and therefore aren’t actually defined in what we are.
I have never alluded to him that I want a relationship but at the same time I suppose the way we are does have all the ‘hallmarks’ of the beginnings of a relationship.
We have both been having a good time and just taking things as they come and not making any commitment or defining the relationship, but now I am concerned that I am being unfair or unkind with the way we are together.
Although, for all I know, he could just be looking for a good time, casual style relationship as well.
Am I in the wrong for just keeping things going as they are when I’m not looking for a serious relationship and do I have to disclose this to him so early on, or can I just keep going as I am and see where things go?
Sam
I was the ultimate “seeing where things go” person, which men seemed to like, at least the men I was dealing with him. But it’s dodgy. Sounds like you and this guy are going to develop feelings for each other and then what – who’s going to pull the plug? How are you both going to feel?
It’s all very well having a relationship knowing that it may not work out, but going into one knowing that it won’t seems like a waste of time to me. Would you not prefer to be single in the year before you go away?
Anyway, a few months in it’s not too early to talk about it. He may be happy with it or not but at least you’ve given him the option. He could be thinking of going overseas with you, or that you may change your mind. If that’s never going to happen, he should know. Or maybe all he wants is a few months of “fun”. But I’m not sure how you would factor in the ending of that.
?????
If someone is so stupid it serves them right? That seems pretty harsh. Do I rob an old lady because its easy? No, because it is wrong and completely lacks integrity. All of us have felt EU at some point but if you know you are hurting someone and continue to do it because you can, that is more than EU, thats emotionally immature. When the shoe is on the other foot and you’re the stupid one, I bet you might feel different. I may have been EU sometimes, but if I ever drift into acting like an assclown, I stop out of respect for myself and being able to sleep at night.
Finally called it a day with guy who disappeared for almost three weeks. He was back, trying to press the reset button but I insisted on finding out what had prompted his disappearance. Turns out he was tired of me “moaning” and acting generally “disaffected”. Said we both needed some space and that it had done us both good.
I knew there and then there was no point in continuing, although I love this man and we’ve been getting on well since he popped up again. I hadn’t succumbed to his physical charms (although it was on the cards if I’d been given a reasonable explanation for what had happened), so he kept asking if I’d met someone else. I made a snap decision that I knew would end things finally and said (lied) yes, I had met someone else while he was AWOL.
I can’t help wondering if I’ve made a mistake and I feel sad. If he’s an EUM, that means I’m an EUW and I don’t know how to be any different. And maybe I have a superficial streak that values form over substance. If I don’t know how to change, am I not better accepting what’s on offer? It’s all so confusing. He looked so hurt as I left but I know (finally) I’ve done something that will sever this relationship for good.
The trigger was when I heard him talk about my “moaning”, I felt as if I’m not allowed to have any needs or expectations here. He says he loves me but he’s not interested in what I might want. Although part of me wonders if I’m just a moany person with entitlement issues?
Feel as if I haven’t a clue really 🙁
From @AliceB: The trigger was when I heard him talk about my “moaning”, I felt as if I’m not allowed to have any needs or expectations here. He says he loves me but he’s not interested in what I might want. Although part of me wonders if I’m just a moany person with entitlement issues?
**************************************
Been there! Once dated someone who said to me, “only his needs were important nobody else’s needs are important.
@Alice B
That shows fantastic self-protection. You done good girl! When the misty fog clears a bit you will see that. Possibly you could have said, actually I am not a pick and mix candy counter, I come as a package. However in the same way you cannot accept all aspects of me, I cannot accept the aspect of you that cannot *stay* but goes AWOL.
Remember one of the BR golden rules, when they are resisting connection actually its time to walk the other way too. People who love you are trying to cross bridges towards you not build them in the opposite direction and down grade you to the Options counter. He said he wanted space – but there are two people in a relationship and therefore two peoples needs. Not just his. There is nothing reasonable about disappearing for 3 weeks. Seriously. Perhaps when you say you feel confused it could be more that you are in unknown territory area. You batted for you and it feels wierd the first time. Be ok in the unfamiliar zone. The more you bat for you the more familiar this space becomes. Its not even about settling for less, the minimum you expect is equal terms. Saying I love you doesn’t absolve someone of the pain and anxiety of 3 weeks in a holding and waiting pattern. Thats not love. Love is caring, consideration and sensitivity.
No regrets. Move on from this one. No need to analyse further…..boundarys in place – tick. Recognised managing down expectations – tick. Folded any further investment – tick
My personal rule is: It isn’t a “relationship” unless it’s been six months or 26 dates (assuming one date a week), whichever comes LAST.
However, my last one a year ago, my personal rule seemed to go out the window.
We met at a volunteer event.
We had fun every night for two months, sometimes his place, sometimes mine.
I did notice that we never did go on any “dates” per se, but it was always his place or my place.
He met some of my friends, and I thought he had fun, or he acted like it.
He asked me to come live in his home.
It went downhill after that.
He would only see my friends if they came to his house, he would never go with me to see them.
He started biting my head off for no reason.
Sex went out the window, and not because of me!
He would say, “we should do this, we should do that” but would never make those things happen.
I threatened to leave, he would “blow hot.”
He would swear up and down he loved and wanted me.
Then he went back to doing as he pleased, never including me in his life and hardly ever saying a word to me. (Treating me like a roommate)
I’m thankful he didn’t cheat on me (I’m very sure, there were no “signs” of it. He was at home a lot.). But in all other ways, what he SAID he wanted, and his actions, just didn’t match.
We were “involved” seven months, but we never went on 26 dates, so I call him a “mistake.”
Logically, your brain can say, “why should I stay with a jerk.” But it’s hard to get your heart and your brain on the same wavelength.
JJ2: Its very difficult being with this type of man. Its soul destroying and very demoralising and humiliating. i’m glad you got out when you did. These types of men live life on their terms only.
“The trigger was when I heard him talk about my “moaning”, I felt as if I’m not allowed to have any needs or expectations here. He says he loves me but he’s not interested in what I might want.”
You just said it all really. Are you better off accepting this, or should you aim for something better? For someone who actually gives a damn about you, who takes an interest in your life and makes you a part of theirs, where things are straight forward and relatively easy, where you know you like him and he likes you, no games, no messing, no disappearances, no need to ‘moan’? Only you can answer that. Do you want these things, or do you want to settle and be dissatisfied forever, with a man who shows utter disrespect by disappearing on you and making it your fault? Do you think you deserve to be with someone who makes you happy and gives you little reason to moan? Who gives you what you want without you having to get it, like blood from a stone?
You’ve been really brave and made the first steps. If the answer to the above is ‘yes’ you need to address the reasons why your are an EUW and look to how you can change that. Life gets a good deal more satisfying when you put yourself first!
Best of luck to you! 🙂
I heard a quote the other day
“I had the lowest of low expectations and still I’m disappointed”
It wouldn’t matter what my expectations are of him he will always end up disappointing me. Even in “friendship” I am majorly disappointed by him.
I haven’t quite kicked him to the curb I am sucking it and seeing and I can see more clearly now how quickly it is to revert to crying and moping around blah blah and why because it is hard work to look at yourself to take responsibility and change esp after living in denial for more years than not it easy to have him there to blame him and heap the responsibility on him to allow him to drive and I admit it at times its easy been the passenger riding in denial. I know I have to change I have to leave him behind and that is taking me time.
I really got encouragement from this post and peoples thoughts.
Thank you
Tulipa,
Please don’t waste any more of your precious life!!!! Pride serves no purpose!
@ Tulipa
You fear you will miss the comfort of the familiar, the ‘crumbs’. It’s
been 2 mos. that I told my EUM to take a run & jump [love that] and I feel I rejected HIM and I won’t lie..it feels delicious!! Yes, I admit sometimes I miss the crumbs, but I am filling my life w/hobbies and the people who I care about who reciprocate those good feelings.
Thank you both for your comments.
I know it is silly of me to try and work on the friendship when I have done this before and it was a one way street like it is this time.
I go along quite well and then I relapse because I turn the crumbs into more than they are and reality seems to suck. I am trying out new hobbies and making more plans to meet other people but I have to stop my self destructive ways will return to counselling I obviously have issues to deal with. Thank you again and I hope you continue in no contact Outergirl.
Maybe we can all do w/a laugh: Today, after no word from the EU since late November, no holiday greetings, no attempt to mend fences, nothing; I get a text from someone in his ‘band’ [he’s 44 y.o for cryin’ out loud] announcing their next ‘gig’. Can you believe the brass set on him??? He didn’t even have the stones to do it, puts someone else up to it. It’s like him saying ‘yea I know you think I suck but I don’t see why you can’t continue to provide me w/my ego stroke. Oh yea, hold your breath, I’m on my way. Loser..
Tulipa,
I can relate to what you must be feeling right now in this “friendship” with your ex. I tried that with mine, too. I thought that being friends would mean I would get treated better. As his girlfriend, I was miserable, while all his friends seemed to think he was so great. I thought if I was his friend, he would be great to me. I thought I could casually hang out and show him how cool I was about the whole situation.
I also turned crumbs into a loaf. I read some article on the internet about how to tell if your ex still has feelings for you. He was showing all the behaviors in the article, but what I didn’t realize is that the article was BS, or at least it didn’t tell the whole story. So what if he was still calling, texting, wanting to hang out? He was not stepping up and saying he wanted me back. And me hanging around after being rejected as his girlfriend certainly didn’t raise my worth in his eyes or mine.
Baggage Reclaim really opened my eyes to the truth of the situation. Unfortunately, I didn’t find this site until AFTER we had a falling out and our “friendship” ended. I really wish I had been woken up sooner, so that I could look back on the situation and be proud of myself for opting out and keeping my dignity. Instead, I have spent months torturing myself for being so naive.
As others have said on here, there are hallmarks that would lead us to believe a relationship is truly meaningful.
I was dated an AC/EUM for two years, and then we were married for 8 1/2 years. He asked me to marry him, and I caught him cheating on me 4 months into it. But I stayed anyway. He begged me to have kids with him, but I was not sure I even trusted him. He would go out with his friends til all hours of the night, not bothering to check in, and alot of times not bothering to say he was going out with them.
Yeah, I got the “prize”. He married ME, and WE bought a house together. I “caught” him, and I could have “kept” him, so long as I was willing to put up with his cheating, lying, disrespectful ways. He was an AC because he was a blatantly, in-your-face asshole. He was EU because even though we were married, you could not pin him down to have a serious conversation about the future. It was too much bother.
These types, and others who are more subtle, DO go through the motions of commitment, i.e., marriage, kids, etc. But the actual relationship had no substance.
This is the best, honest description of “casual” relationships. You’re right when you say the 2 words don’t go well together, it bothered me so much I just had to break it off.
I’d rather have a strictly-sex, one-night stand for example, than one where the emotions are hot and cold. It hurts so much to be treated this way, but then again, I knew it all along and though this casual thing might just work out, blah blah…
Thanks to all who posted comments to me. It’s fantastic to read your words and see that what I’m doing is constructive. It’s also really helpful to view the situation through other people’s eyes. So easy to get swept along by the craziness. This site, Natalie and you are lifesavers 🙂
Hi Nat
perfect as always!
I agree with moved up sounds like my situation fake future plans fake identity and to top it all fake excuses for being an ass*****le!
I am in no contact for 20 days and he shows up at 10:45pm Friday out of the blue all depressed stressed and wierd and I let in half asleep from a stressful day myself
he ate talked (shoulder to cry ego stroke)
and slep on the couch till morning then stayed till after morning after ofcourse he expected the sport Fu** as well which almost happened but I stopped it and he was confused and suddenly kisses and leaves oh and mentions that we are pursuing the divorce and that im not messing around or else he will do this that and the other and I didn’t respnd except told him whatever he thinks
I seem to be the only one he can share stuff with awwwww and shag as I’m safe and he’s not the type to chase skirts this is quote his words
he left haven’t called him and won’t as that was all a load of bullshit and he wants it casual now after 6 years if marriage with me so no investing himself as he has his options open for his goddamn happiness and life and as mind fuc*****ing is his hobby he can’t help himself but see how he can mainpulate mr however as I’m still not that strong as yet!
he has mentioned he will still continue even after we sign the papers!
He doesn’t see me in his screwd up idea of a relationship but still come to me when his diaper needs changing !
Runnergirl,
You asked
“Is there a balance between power and vulnerability? I don’t want to give my power away again either. How do we retain our power and be vulnerable without being taken advantage of and be emotionally available?”
There is a balance between power and vulnerability! Nats articles directs us to realise that, I believe.
Like you said power makes me get real, like you it helps me to get focused and logical. But like with you underlying all that I did have a deep sense of sadness and vulnerability. I learned how to trust myself again – that was the big step for me. I learned to listen to my instincts, to react for MY benefit. If I felt vulnerable and wanted to cry – I did it. (Albeit on my own but I did it and I comforted myself in small ways that helped me tremendously.) But I have not gone back on NC! That for me was the empowering part, that I realised through trusting myself that I actually didn’t need him in my life or to be a part of his.
I know I’ve made progress just through these steps. I know because a guy at work has been after me for three years, he is a total NARC and I have refused him politely many times. The latest episode has been where he had invited himself to my house for dinner – I refused. He didn’t listen. He later said “You’re not going to cook for me are you?” I said “No I’m not and I’ll cook for myself – actually if I don’t want to cook for myself I won’t be doing that either.” He has since left me alone. This man has the capacity to worm his way into someones life and screw it up – but it’s only because he thinks I’m weak. Totally nice when he sees me, says hello, then criticises something about me. Next time he is critical I’m going to haul his arse over the coals! It’s difficult because we’re in a work situation together, but to say I dislike him would be an understatement. I am not available for him.
It’s when we know how to say NO to situations that are no good for us by trusting ourselves and our instinct that we are better able to identify red flags. The opposite is the case, too. Once we are healed, once time has passed, we are able to trust ourselves more and then our hearts and minds become more open to trusting another. It’s a huge step to trust another, but it must start with us first. It’s then when we are healed are more trusting that vulnerability is a positive thing not a negative thing, because the right person, the one you trust will never abuse the trust you have given them by showing your vulnerable side. In turn, that is pretty empowering stuff.
That’s what I believe, anyway, after going NC and taking time on me.
Last night, I severed my last tie with the ex MM. I had all his websites and flickr page on an RSS feed. I deleted it all and I’m happy that I did it. I’m just not interested in him anymore and I’m happy to be getting my life back on track 🙂
Hang in there! *hug*
Thank you Leigh. You sound as though you are making such great progress by trusting your instincts and staying NC.
“It’s then when we are healed are more trusting that vulnerability is a positive thing not a negative thing, because the right person, the one you trust will never abuse the trust you have given them by showing your vulnerable side. In turn, that is pretty empowering stuff.” This is a great comment. Of course, feeling vulnerable is scary, more so when there is no trust. Inherent in being involved with a MM is a lack of trust. Good luck to you in moving on. MM or any attached individual is such grief.
Oh, but watch the NARC at work. It sounds from the outside like he is testing your boundaries. I hope you can keep saying NO! Cook him dinner…yikes. Sounds a bit like a shag, ego stroke and dinner to boot. He sounds a bit off, based on your description. Hang in there.
“It’s when we know how to say NO to situations that are no good for us by trusting ourselves and our instinct that we are better able to identify red flags”.
I don’t have any problem identifying red flags however I do still have major issues with acting on them. I find I purposely ignore red flags when I meet a guy I really like because I am afraid that it will be a long time before I meet another guy I’m attracted to (I’m fairly picky).
But since discovering this site I’ve gotten a LOT better at it. What used to feel nice and familiar (unavailable man, being treated less than respectfully etc) now feels uncomfortable and not very nice. So much so that I have just ditched the latest inappropriate guy I became entangled with after a very brief 4 weeks when usually I’d carry on for months or until they dumped me.
Amazing — the posters above have described my relationship! I was a “confused and helpless passenger”, used as a “two-year stand”. I now “feel like I have been robbedof two years of my life” and realise that “these people just look for the next person who will provide them with what they need with the minimal inconvenience to themselves”. How come you guys know my relationship? Uncanny!
For 18 months Mark and me went on occasional dates and afterwards made love. We grew increasingly emotionally close and on Valentine’s Day 2010 he surprised me by turning up unannounced with a bouquet of flowers. He’d shown his true feelings and I realised that I, too, had similar feelings for him. We deepened and cemented the relationship by going on a foreign holiday: being together 24/7 changed everything. He behaved exactly as a man does when he is falling in love. He was so romantic, so attentive, so emotionally engaged with me, caring deeply to make me happy in every way he could. He gazed into my eyes lovingly. We bared our souls. It was VERY intense, powerful, emotionally arousing, very exciting to feel us falling in love. (Blowing Hot.)
After the holiday, I told him I loved him. He said he still wasn’t quite recovered from the trauma of his last LT relationship. He wasn’t ready to get too committed. (EUM) He respected, admired, and liked me. He was in for the long haul with me (Future Faking). So I stuck by him, waiting for him to catch up with where I was. I was patient, undemanding, just loved him – that is the only way to induce a man to love you, isn’t it? Says so in all those How-To-Win-Him e-books!
I felt secure when he booked another holiday, six months in advance, and twice as long as the first. Apart from his not saying “I love you”, we became like any other LT couple and he opened up and shared everything with me, involved me in his projects, shared all his troubles and thoughts with me (used me as an Ego Stroke and a Shoulder To Cry On). We’d see each other twice a week, exchanged over 1, 000 emails and chatted on the phone. He was always nice, kind, reliable. What made me unhappy was that he wanted to have sex with other women.
I’ve had dozens of lovers but, although 50, he’d had few women. He said he needed to have sex with a few more to “get it out of his system” before committing himself 100% to someone again. I desperately wanted to be that “someone” so I accepted. I loved him so much, if this it what it took to win him, I would go along with it. He pledged to be tell me everything, never lie to me or them, and tell them it was just a fling because he had a long term girlfriend.
It gradually emerged that a woman he claimed was an occasional shag was feeding him twice a week. He spent a lot of non-sex time with her, doing DIY, taking her out etc. I was very upset but backed down rather than lose him. He said as soon as she found a proper boyfriend she’d dump him. She was on internet dating, so “it would not be long now” (a new twist on Future Faking) I loved him so very much, if this it what it took to win him, I’d tolerate it.
To silence my objections he swore that any future shag would be just that: no dates, no emotional involvement, no lies, no secrets.
Each time I had misgivings, Mark would charm me round. Just days after one such session of manipulation, he started seeing another woman in secret, lying to me AND lying to her. By the time I found out they’d been dating for a month and were emotionally involved. She had withheld sex so far, because she has very high self esteem and is very demanding, demands total commitment, total monogamy. And guess what? He was enchanted by her and later dumped me and the other woman in order to give her the 100% monogamy that she demands.
The moral of my story is, don’t give them unconditional love, don’t accept half a loaf, don’t settle for crumbs, don’t be pliable, undemanding, liberal etc. Not only does it totally wreck your own self esteem, it doesn’t even work because he’ll run off with someone who demands high standards from him.
oh and Mark P, don’t put this other woman on a pedestal and imagine she’s better than you. she has her own issues if she goes for a man already in a relationship and uses sex as a bargaining chip. the chances are this will backfire on her. but you have bigger issues to deal with – why you allowed yourself to be mistreated like this and why you needed his (worthless) attention so much.
Marks-Poppet,
I agree with Grace – don’t put him or her on a pedestal. There are articles on here about ‘why her and not me?’ read those and then see how you feel.
I have been the ‘next woman’ after the previous woman ‘lost out’ (pah!) on my ex EUM. She saw us out together one night and was very upset. She must have wondered why he had ‘chosen’ me, was i different, etc? No i was not! I put up with faaaar less crap than her, i wasn’t the result of a one night stand like she was, he pursued me, whereas she had pursued him, i called him on all his crap, she put up with being a weekend hook up. Did i fare any better? Nope! He still pushed my boundaries, he still took me for granted, everything was on his terms, i was not a part of his life, he swanned in and out whenever he wanted (and it was great fun when he swanned in). Eventually i had enough and dumped him. He made a HUGE play to get me back, then dumped me 2 weeks later by email.
I went NC and stayed NC after that. She has been back and forth with him FOUR TIMES! He’s now ‘single’ (i bump into him occasionally) and still singing the same old ‘i have issues with committement’ song. I am now happily with someone decent (and trying not to stuff it up) :).
Put yourself on a pedestal instead! You don’t need someone who is incapable of giving you what you want.
Minky,
THANK you for this!! I was feeling a twinge of jealousy yesterday thinking of one of the other women my ex was pursuing, who had way better boundaries than me, and he was pursuing her. My friend said to me, “You’re asking yourself why the abusive man wants her and not you?” lol. These men don’t change! That’s part of the attraction, though, right? Being attracted to men who don’t change so we don’t have to either, we can cling to our known patterns and behaviors. For some of us, the familiar pain trumps the unknown until it’s so painful we can’t stand it anymore and do something different.
Your story is certainly an eye-opener. These men aren’t really capable of treating women well. But GOOD JOB in walking away — I only wish I’d found it that easy. I never thought I would ever stop weeping over him. More fool me, eh?
My ex isn’t actually WITH the Next Woman because (after he gave me and the other one up for her) she rejected him. But he still has the one he had alongside me — his Fallback Girl, in Natalie’s parlance.
I just want to add that this blog is brill — telling my story to you all made me realise what a mug I have been, and hearing your replies confirms that I was indeed a victim and should never have accepted his messing me about. It’s very useful to hear other people’s views.
Sunshine and Marks-Poppet,
They rarely change – and even if they do, once you have addressed your issues and changed your relationship patterns, you won’t care anymore. You will value yourself too highly to get involved with an EUM or AC, or give the time of day to someone who was stupid enough not to see how wonderful you were. This is how i feel about my ex EUM and i never thought i would get over him!
If a decent guy wants to be with you, he will be with you. Simple. It won’t be all plain sailing, but it won’t be hard work and constant dissatisfaction either.
Marks poppet
First thing pretty lady is to stop calling yourself names. Mug? Fool? That’s no way to talk to a friend. It’s natural to feel shame, that doesn’t make anyone a fool. A fool takes advantage of good people. Maybe another kind of fool would keep going back for more, but you are not. You’re doing the very hard work, of moving on. ((hugs))
@ Grace. I said above, he lied to her. Said he was single. No blame on her. Your other comments are valid though. I just loved him so much, I thought, if I stick by him, let him get this out of his system he will reward me by being mine all mine…….
Oh you commented again… yes, knew it was a red flag, knew it wasn’t the usual way, but I felt so selfish kinda asking him to commit and miss out on sowing his wild oats when I’d sown loads of my own! Never again, obviously! Now I know that the woman he REALLY values is the one who would not have stood for ANY of it…. grrrr! Now I know that he’s willing to give up the chance of sex with other women to be with her …. but he would not do it for me…. What an insult! I am a Baggage Reclaim Girl now — this is my Bible!!!!
marks
eek, it gets worse. he can’t have that much respect for her if he lied to her. he sounds like an all round user and you are best shot of him.
he may be giving up sex with other women … for now. who knows what he will do when the novelty has worn off.
i doubt very much that he has changed, she’s made him jump through a few hoops but deep down he’s still a lying cheat. the only way that will change if he gets a wake up call. which is unlikely when there seems to be a steady stream of women who are lapping it up.
i don’t think she’s the wake up call; if it ever happens it will be x years down the line, maybe after a period of singledom, or something huge like his father dying or suchlike. woman just don’t have that much power to change a man. pick a good one to start with, not a rubbishy one that you hope to change with good boundaries etc. good boundaries are to stop twits getting in, they are not for changing twits that you let in.
Marks,
The most important thing is that have to remember to love and respect ourselves, or no one else can-The bit about having sex with other women was quite disturbing.
1. She probably did not know that he was in another relationship (or two).
Also, say she did know–so what!–one month in is too early to have sex.
2. Given the above, she did not use sex as a bargaining chip. In fact, she was smart for making clear her intentions and demands, especially with such a man. She made herself 100% clear with him as to where she stood. She even was gutsy enough to address being monogamous–she didn’t acknowledge or give a head-nod to (the fact of) his having other women. Nope. She didn’t acknowledge the negative, much like a wife does not (and SHOULD NEVER) address the existence of a mistress. Rather, she took a positive spin on it all and said, “Monogamy for me. Commitment for me.” (me. me. me.) She acknowledged herself and her needs and, in so doing, nullified everyone else.
I did not have sex before marriage. I never considered this a way of bargaining for anything. I just wanted to protect myself! But I was the Undemanding One with everyone I dated, believing that it was better (or enough) just to see how the guy would behave; juge him on his actions, I believed, without any outside influence. Would he value that he was with a girl who takes herself very seriously, in all aspects of her life (work, schjool, sex, friends, etc.) on his own, without me making demands b/c he is lucky to be with someone like me? Or will he (still) be greedy, and want to look around (or whatever)?
Well, what was the use of his knowing all of this when I never with any guy made clear my demands past one remark (always along the lines of, “If you’re here to have fun, then leave me alone”) with any guy who seemed to be wanting to still play the field? (Which, people, almost 100% of them, EU or not, still want to do!)
Funny, whoever I didn’t explain things to ALWAYS came back (after looking around, continuing to have sex with others, doing their own whatever-they-need-to-do-to-get-out-of-their-system-stuff, etc.)…to the girl of no-demands, no-sex-card…and, by then, no-more-interest!
I think it all comes down to THE GUY. A good guy, WHO IS READY FOR A RELATIONSHIP, you don’t HAVE TO explain who you are to–he just knows and appreciates you for you.
If this situation with Mark and the New Girl backfires in any way, it WON’T be b/c of her and any “sex card” or “game” she is “playing”–she likely has done nothing wrong–it will be b/c of him and his issues, not being ready, whatever.
Just to clear up a few tiny details… she definitely did not know he already had two LT sex relationships – he lied to her; and in the end she’s not with him, as she is with someone else. And I am glad, cos she’s probably a perfectly decent person who does not deserve the misery he would have brought her with his EU nature. So, by messing with us both, he lost her and he lost me.
GRACE – “whether he will drive 50 miles to pick up your dad from the airport, come over when you are sick, encourage you if you get made redundant”… nope, he would not have done any of those things, as no care for anyone, no empathy. I did ask him to do me a favour once, and he made such a fuss I didn’t dare ask anything again.
Whatever the type of woman he was with, the guy was always the same, a jerk!
Marks-Poppet,
Your post (and many others) broke my heart. It hit really close to home. Thank you for sharing. Everytime I get weak, I think about what pain I’d be going back to….”waiting for him for him to catch up”. “I loved him so much, if this it what it took to win him, I would go along with it.” That’s precisely what I remember thinking. After 40 days of NC, I can’t believe I was in that spot too. I wish you the best. I also remember thinking that this is better than nothing. I’m relieved I finally got to the point that not him was better than him. What a journey of the heart.
Runner,
It helped me a great deal not to keep track of the days, as it yet another way to stay attached to the situation.
Time to put the focus on you! 🙂
Actually, I’ve lost track of the days. I think you are right about not keeping track at this point. It felt good in the beginning but now it just takes time to go back and count and I’m not sure it matters any more. I’m trying to put the focus back on me but, as you know, it isn’t easy since I virtually gave up my life to accomodate his. I’m slowly reconnecting with friends and family, and thinking about things I’d like to do, although I’m not really doing anything yet. Presently, I’m just working on my classes which I had neglected due to 5 years of work insanity and being quiet. The quietness is nice sometimes and lonely sometimes. I did see the ex on the news today and he is wearing his wedding ring. When we met and I asked why he didn’t wear a wedding ring, he indicated that he hadn’t worn it for years and she didn’t care. Apparently, that must have been a lie or she woke up recently and figured out he wasn’t wearing it. Married men who cheat suck.
Thanks RunnerGirl. Isn’t it amazing how many stories on here are SO similar? It’s like we all dated the same man, yet it cannot be, as there are different countries, different continents involved. I know Mark thinks our story is unique to us, but it’s not. It’s a pattern of men (usually) trying to get as much “relationship” stuff out of us as they can without giving anything of themselves, or their love, in return.
after reading all of this, I did break down in tears, as it hurts, I didnt realise that there was other guys out there doing the same thing. Ive been seeing a guy on and off for the past 18 months, he cools it every now and again, not sure why, I should after all this time, he prob gets bored and scared as we like a “old” married couple at times. as i do the housework when I’m around, cooking, I do it as I love him, and now I’m sat on my pc watching him flirt with another woman, who he got her number the other week, via a works night out. they even txt one another while I was with him, he claimed it was someone else until I saw her name. he claimed its harmless. so why carry on.
I’m sat here crying as I know I’m stupid, I walked away from a unhappy marriage not long ago as he was mental abusing me. thought I had met someone who wanted me for me.
I cant say NC, as I know I wont hear from him again. Friends are often telling me to wake up and walk away, but I cant.
molly
i can’t believe you would blame yourself for his behaviour. You do the housework, you cook for him, I’ve no doubt you do other things for him. He should be bloody grateful, not mucking about with other women.
Bored and scared? More like living the high life! Doting girlfriend at home that he can pick up an drop as he fancies, while he flirts with and shags others. Why can’t we see these users for what they are! Bored and scared my arse!
Sorry to rant Molly but I do feel really angry on your behalf.
Molly, I felt the same way. I couldn’t believe that my situation was so similar to the stuff Natalie writes about and the posters comments. It might be a good idea to get Natalie’s books. This site opened my eyes, once I stopped crying. NC is hard but staying in an unhealthy relationship gets harder once the denial cracks and you can see it for what it is. You deserve better. Grace is right, don’t blame yourself for his dodgy behavior. We’ve all stuck by “him”, to no avail.
Molly,
You had a life before this, and you will have one after.
You are choosing to allow this man to take advantage and disrespect; your friends are right.
You think it’s bad now. Just wait until your self-esteem has been depleted to nothing! Get out now, and try to figure out why you continue to choose emotionally abusive relationships!
Molly, you’re an ‘over-giver’. Instead of looking at him, start asking yourself why you’re fannying around cooking, cleaning etc for him when he has at least one foot out of this relationship? You’re committed to an uncommitted relationship which is major commitment issues. I appreciate you’re trying to show your ‘love’ but his interpretation of love may be very different to yours plus cooking and cleaning for someone else are not love demonstrations, especially around someone like him who may see you akin to a housekeeper. Housework is not a way of meeting someone’s needs. You are focusing on the wrong things and treating yourself like a skivvy in the process. If you fear for his hot dinners so much, give him a M&S voucher and a cleaner’s number and wash your hands of him. It’s not harmless – you’re sitting at home crying while he disrespects you with someone else. He’s a loser. Stop treating yourself like a loser.
“So I stuck by him, waiting for him to catch up with where I was. I was patient, undemanding, just loved him – that is the only way to induce a man to love you, isn’t it? Says so in all those How-To-Win-Him e-books!”
No! It’s the way to establish your doormat status. You need to read Rori Raye instead – what you need to do is Circular Dating and learn how to make your wants and needs clearly articulated! Together with NML these are the two most useful resources on the net!
Marks
I’m really sorry but when I read “he wanted to have sex with other women” I stopped to make this comment. I’ll go back and read on but I’m sure you know that’s a red flag. It’s what scuppered my last relationship – I knew that I didn’t want to be part of that.
It’s not a reflection on you or your value or your attactiveness. Come on, look at Cheryl Cole.
Also, I was sceptical when I read about the nice holidays etc. That’s all very well but ultimately it’s the day-to-day stuff that really counts – whether he will drive 50 miles to pick up your dad from the airport, come over when you are sick, encourage you if you get made redundant, things like that. Anyone can have a nice holiday and say sweet stuff.
In the last argument I had with my EUM, he threw out this “I am not looking for a girlfriend..”. But during the short ‘relationship'(maybe it was ‘encounter’), there was this “You are girlfriend material” and “Let’s take a chance on this, I know we both are scared, we can make it work”, “Let’s travel to India together”. I invited him to Christmas dinner, I met his friends….
He was blowing hot and cold, future faking…He wanted way more than sex, there was a lot of emotional support from me to him and I felt used – like I was his unpaid therapist. I wasn’t just a booty call. This is what is so confusing and infuriating. You THINK you are in a relationship but you AREN’T.
@ Ms Blue — I think we shared the same man LOL
I decided to forgive myself for ‘dating’ (‘encountering’?) this EUM. I do it every morning and night b/c that is when I feel miserable the most. It helps me keep NC. I put my hand on my stomach/chest and say, “I forgive myself for…I release this person from my life”.
I also do a lot of affirmations (“I am in a healthy and loving relationship ….”). I’m also reading a book called Love in 90 Days and find that doing breathing exercises (pranayam) helps. It’s like detoxing from a drug.
hey grace!
Thank you for the answer. You are 100% right. I didn’t say it right, i think, my brother is a classic Mr. EU, and he’s a good person, a great brother, a loyal friend, just not a good boyfriend, actually a horrible boyfriend… and emotionally unavaliable, like my dad, my mum (a fallback girl), me (also a fallback girl:). I’m really thankful for your answer, you explain things so clearly, there’s no room for bullshit interpretations:)))
Anyway, I’m keeping away from “my lost boys” as I call them (my ex boyfriends). I broke up with my last EUM in August and I’ve been no contact and single since then, it feels good, no more drama, focusing on me and my issues.
One think is still not clear to me: so emotionally unavaliable men change, when they meet a woman, who is so special for them, that they want to become connected??? or what is the reason?
i need some help with this:)
thanks xoxo
ana
when/if the EUM changes is out of our hands as i’m sure you know. however, i’m quite sure that he doesn’t change with the current woman only with a new one. it’s not because the new one is “better” but because there is no baggage with a new woman. there’s no history of him having treated her badly, no games, lies, hot and cold, breaks ups etc.
ana – i hit return to soon,
also, timing is everything. if he’s made the changes and wants to commit the next woman is likely to be “the one” or maybe the one after. he certainly won’t be going through dozens more as before!
all you can do is pick a good guy at the outset rather than wait for him to change for you.
Grace exactly ! They move on to other women….because there is NO BAGGAGE!!………….it’s not even personal..!
They go through this with woman after woman, stupidly (? ) falling over their own feet?
My EUM set me up initially as a trusting friend…sex partner, and as an “understanding, liberal minded older woman, who would hold down the fort…he wanted me to rent a three bedroom apt.
He would have his own room….just in case he wanted to “entertain”………and a room for myself, and one for my son who was 18 at the time.
My EUM also had a 2 year old son….who I met a year into the relationship…..He even considered that I would be a part-time care taker for his child.
He asked me to sit for his son once….at his Mom’s……and his mother sat down with me and just let loose about his “lifestyle”…the only thing she said in a positive light is that he was a good parent.
We were steady for 2 years…but it was obvious to me that he was looking for a “situation” that would suit him best, very unorthodox at best. I was 45 when we met , he was 24.
Now he turning 30 in a few months.
He wants out of any intimate relationship with me…and wants to move on to a more normal relationship.
Poor thing, he says women only want him for booty call.
He was a skilled “future faker”, liar and admitted to me that I was “convenient” for the last 5 years.
His narcissism turned him into a “GTL” guy. (gym, tan, laundry)
and I hardly recognize him as the young man that I first met.
At least he stopped smoking.
“No Contact ” is a beautiful thing.
Its been a month for me…and I fell off the wagon once, but I’m back on. Thank you Natalie.
Very good article. On the flip side, there really isn’t anything wrong with casual relationships or serial monogamy. Not all relationships are meant to last a lifetime, and that’s OK too. We learn from relationships. We learn about ourselves and what we want and don’t want. So what if all relationships don’t last forever. If you get your basic needs met, why should a woman feel she has wasted her time with a man just because a relationship didn’t lead to marriage?
From my experience, I’ve found that a lot of the men I dated in the past weren’t ones I would want to grow old with, but so what? The relationships provided what I needed at different stages in my life. I don’t feel they used me, nor I them since all along I got something out of the situations most of the time (except when I didn’t understand why boundaries mattered).
I don’t think a relationship has to be headed to the altar to qualify as a relationship. So when you say, “This is why so many people get caught out – because it ‘looks’ like a relationship and may even ‘quack’ like a relationship, but without intimacy, progression, commitment, consistency, balance and a mutual care, trust, and respect, and then eventual love, it doesn’t have the meat or the equipment to walk like a relationship” — I think there are different types of relationships, different qualities of relationships, and that’s OK too.
Yeah, when I was in my 20’s and 30’s i was EU and my 2 common-law partners begged me to marry them. i did learn from the relationships but in a way, i did string them along as passing time candidates. I was right to be EU but I didn’t tell them that i never intended to marry them. I used them. I was in my emotional baggage and unaware of personal responsibility. Because of my childhood wounds, father being a jerk, etc. I never wanted to commit to them and was angry at men.
Now in my 40’s I have cleared a lot of my commitphobe issues and I think I’ve developed 5 core values: spirituality, loving nature, positive mental attitude, emotional stablitiy/maturity and desire for family/commitment/monogamy. I will attract a partner with these same 5 values. It took a while to get to this place, but relationships are mirrors. It sounds cliqued but it is.
Being clear in what you want and being honest in communicating it to your partner – whehter you want a casual relationship or a committed relationship is the issue w/most women here.. Nobody deserves to be strung along and used. I think in this blog, most of the women want a commited relationship and feel disrespected when used as a booty call, unpaid therapist, etc. This is all a process. WE all all learning about boundaries, healing past emotional wounds, communication, etc. I’ve done the using, now I am being used, so I know how it feels. Karma is a bitch!
Anonymous, I think your comment, “If you get your basic needs met” is key. Some people are in relationships where they don’t get their basic needs met and don’t know quite why.
You’re right that if what we value currently are relationships without expectations of marriage or long-term commitment, then it’s totally fine to be with people who share those values. Natalie has never said anything against knowing what your intentions are, and if your intentions are to have fun and stay uncommitted, that’s cool.
All too often, however, one person is wanting more than the other. All too often, people who don’t want much say and promise that they do. If you don’t feel you got used, then that’s great, and it’s nice to hear from a woman who is out there moving through relationships on her own terms. But it sounds as though there was a time when you didn’t understand why boundaries mattered and got dinged.
This post is for all of us still learning why and how boundaries matter.
“If you get your basic needs met, why should a woman feel she has wasted her time with a man just because a relationship didn’t lead to marriage?”
Because some young women whose goal is marriage/children get strung along by AC Future Fakers, thus wasting some of their most fertile years.
I didn’t want marriage or kids, but I DID want a proper, committed long term equal relationship with a man I could spend my retirement with. He didn’t, but after I declared I was in love with him, instead of telling me straight we had no future, he told me I was “nearly” the perfect woman for him and that he was “nearly” ready to commit to someone. These carrots on sticks made me jump through hoops like a performing circus animal for months on end trying to change his “nearly” to “definite”, yet all the while he knew he didn’t want me.
And that, my friend, is what is so cruel about these EUM and ACs.
Marks,
Same story for me.
Thankfully, we now know that we shouldn’t have to “jump through hoops” for a man to love us-just makes them lose more respect, anyway. The relationship should be natural and easy, not filled with drama and anxiety.
Anonymous-
You make a very good point that not all relationships must lead to the altar. However, I think it is important to acknowledge that as long as BOTH parties are knowingly on the same page, it is acceptable and not when one pulls the wool over the other’s eyes in order to get his/her needs met.
Oh my. Natalie and folks, you all are so spot on. I’ve just got to share and I have a question. I’ll be brief because it is so textbook. Ex MM #1 has apparently just blown into town, left a message, and wants to get together for a chili dog (that was our thing). We were supposed to get together at Xmas but I didn’t hear from him, which was fine because I had discovered this site while he blew cold and wouldn’t have responded anyhow. I also didn’t accept his friend invite on Facebook. This guy was the classic EUM AC from hell. Before I discovered this site, I thought I had to “be friends”. Don’t ask, I was in a total fog. So, he blows into town today, unannouced, and thinks I’m going to drop what I’m doing to give him an ego stroke and probably the other kind of stroke too. When I listened to the message, I couldn’t believe it. Here’s my question: If these EUM AC men choose her and not me, why the sam hell do they keep lurking around? When he called at Thanksgiving to set up a Xmas, it was totally out of the blue after two years of not a single word. Now again, totally out of the blue. If they choose her, why don’t they leave me alone? I’m so grateful for this site. Without it, I’d be screaming at him on the phone to go take a flying…..off a short pier. Dear God!
Runnergirl: back. away. from. the. toxic. chili. dog.
Every time I think about potentially having a coffee with the ex-AC, I play this imagined conversation in my head, between he and one of his buddies. The first part is the satisfying part:
Him: She never returned any of my calls. I can’t believe she totally cut me off.
But then:
Buddy: Don’t you worry, she’ll come round.
I then realize that no matter how long it takes, for the rest of my life, if I ever say okay to a coffee and a ‘catch-up’ chat, that will signal me being ‘over it’ which will translate in his mind to ‘she’s not mad anymore so we’re cool’ or ‘she’s over it so I am off the hook and never have to have her cross my mind with a pang of guilt again.’ I never want him to have the satisfaction of feeling let off the hook, because that’s all it ever would be.
My other imagined scenario is me running into him years later and him falling to his knees saying he realizes what an ass he was and begs me to forgive him. But the reality is that in order for that ever to happen, he would have to become the kind of person who would have realized that in many ways pursuing me was almost inappropriate, and if that happened he’d probably have to pursue a woman who was more suitable. So that fantasy goes out the window because if he grew up, he wouldn’t have been interested in me in the first place (he’s that much older, that much more established, etc etc).
My sister has been in a situation like yours and she is not as much the fantasizing kind. There was, when she was about 20, a guy who passed through her world and left without my ever meeting him, but whom she from then on referred to as Asshole Jeff. Even in her 30s, Asshole Jeff drops her a line every year or two. She said to me, all he wants to know is that he can get me to meet with him. Then he thinks, ha, I AM all that, she’ll still meet with me. And she didn’t want to give him the satisfaction. I swear, when she’s 50, Asshole Jeff will still be dropping her a line every couple of years when he blows into town.
NC all the way, I say.
NC all the way. No toxic chili dogs for me. I think your sister’s Asshole Jeff may be my Asshole Greg. Your sister’s senario is what is going on here. “…all he wants to know is that he can get me to meet with him. Then he thinks, ha, I AM all that, she’ll still meet with me.” And, I’m sure he wants to be let off the hook as well just like your ex. I have no fantasies about this AC. He was such a total jerk, I’m soooo glad I escaped. His little saying was that I was too young and energetic and full of life for him. He was right! I can’t believe they just lurk around forever.
In your senario about meeting up with him and he falls to his knees, you mentioned that his pursuing you was almost inappropriate and that he would have to pursue a woman who was more suitable…do you mean older? I don’t know you but based on your posts, you are suitable!
Actually, I thought a bit more about the suitability thing after I posted. I did think ‘older,’ but more specifically I mean someone who can meet him in his world. I am in the arts and currently studying, and with him in finance and politics I didn’t have the background to know better when he would say he was planning to get involved with this particular politician, or local developer, or philanthropist, etc. There are women my age who are firmly ‘in’ his world and could potentially have a reasoned opinion of their own about political strategy when they sit down to dinner with him (as opposed to me, who could only ask questions, or say what my intuitive read was of a situation).
But I realized as I thought about it, that a few of my core values are fairness, a balance of power between intimates, and voluntary disclosure/transparency of personal struggles. It’s not my age, or even my field, that makes me unsuitable. It’s that my age and field fit me to be an acolyte, not a partner, to someone like him. I guess he and I were ‘suitable’ for each other in a value system of blurred boundaries between mentor/mentee, man/boy, etc. Given my stance on power dynamics, that wasn’t for me.
As for how this relates to the post of casual relationships, again, I think the lightbulb thing for me is realizing that for some people, “getting a wife” is not the same as “finding a partner to share the journey of life.” The title they give you has nothing to do with how much mental/emotional energy they will give you.
Have you ever watched ‘The Good Wife’? I just watched the first 4 episodes: main character is the whipsmart, cheated-on wife of a prominent state attorney. It’s Hollywood but I saw lots in it that validated my sense of the boys’-club, playground corrupt mentality that I got a taste of.
Lately I have been feeling like a stray animal that he picked up and brought into ‘proper human society’ and, now that I bit the hand that feeds, has been released back into the wild. No consolation that I ran off because he wanted me to heel, and wanted to pick up other ‘strays’ he came across. He still sits in his house like the comfortable human, thinking, I fed her, I let her sleep in my bed, I took her for walks in beautiful places and she still growls and snaps at me because I don’t jump to her beat? Let her go back to the alley and see how she likes it. I’ll get myself a pet that appreciates what I do for her.
It was so confusing because, in many ways, I could tell that I was getting the “preferred” pet treatment. It’s almost enough to make you feel that you’re not being treated ‘casually.’ But even if you’re being groomed, fed organic, taken for lots of runs, “petted” well and often, and even allowed to live in the masters’ house, being taken seriously is not part of the deal. That would require compromise, negotiation and respect of your independent opinion. Expecting to be taken seriously is where you start to be a pain in the *ss – you start to require some forethought —
Okay, I’m rambling. Feeling the loneliness and anger today. Thanks for the question, sorry for the venting.
Hi Lynn
What an introspective take on how he made you feel..like a pet, an object, a thing. Not a sentient adult human being. Now it gives ‘me’ something to think about because my EU came to me like a wounded stray, sought me out. I took him in [emotionally] and once his ego recovered, he ‘bit’ me so to speak. But I never, ever set out to make him my ‘pet’, the analogy came to me only after I gave him alot of chances to be a decent person and then finally had to give up on him [return him to the shelter? ha ha]
Hey Lynn,
NO apologies necessary. I know the loneliness and the anger. Communicating via writing is sometimes difficult. Therefore, if I’m not understanding something you wrote, ignore what I say. When you said: “It’s not my age, or even my field, that makes me unsuitable. It’s that my age and field fit me to be an acolyte, not a partner, to someone like him”; it made me think that may be how he acted and how he treated you, as a follower and not a partner. That may be the imbalance of power you refer to but I’m not certain it is because you were unsuitable or there were other women who could better discuss a reasoned political strategy. Could you be being really hard on yourself? Also, based on your stray animal analogy, it made me wonder if he treated you like a pet. Additionally, could you possibly be putting him on a pedestal? The reason I say this is based on my own experience with the ex who is a politician and the former president where I worked. In my circumstance, he placed himself on a pedestal. Our little joke was that he would say “rank has it’s privileges” when he got to throw his weight around. And, when my weekend started at 2:00 on Thursday because I was so unimportant and he had to work through the weekend because he was so important, I’d say “no rank has it’s privileges”! When we ended it, I placed him on a pedestal, until Allison and Fearless knocked him off of it for me. They told me that he’s just a guy, not a god or a ghost. Your ex is just a guy, not a god or a ghost. Don’t deify him. Your comments regarding “getting a wife v. finding a partner” have so resonated and helped me a lot. I can see where getting the preferred treatment made it seem like a real relationship not a casual one. But not being taken seriously is a big problem. It sounds to me as though you may have escaped a rather dreary, albeit glamorous future. Your comments make me think about my ex MM’s wife and why she refused to attend political events except when it was absolutely necessary. I’ll relate a story that may make you smile a bit. There was a black tie political event this past summer and the wife had to attend. Apparently, I found out later she spent the entire week pitching a fit about having to attend. Of course, I spent the entire week pitching a fit about not being able to attend. By the time the evening of the event rolled around, the ex MM was a nervous wreck. We spent the entire evening on the phone and text fighting. I was home alone, as usual, reading Anna Karenima (an OW) and was at the part where she throws herself on the train tracks (sorry to spoil the story if you haven’t read it). Later, I saw pictures from the event in the newspaper and she was there sitting next to him staring off into space looking like she would rather be on the train tracks herself. I never understood that picture and why she was do disengaged until I read your posts. She has the title. I’m thinking maybe one day we may be grateful we don’t? Give yourself a hug, lots of love, and I’ll do the same. I do hear your anger and loneliness. Being angry and lonely now may beat a lifetime of staring off into space with the title and with him?
One more thing. Presently, I cannot distinguish when I’m being too hard on myself and when I’m owning my mistakes. At this point, I’m so pissed off at myself for cheating, lying, and decieving everybody, our families, friends, and work colleagues, I’m not probably able to judge whether somebody else is being to hard on themselves. Please don’t take my comment the wrong way. It is coming from where I am and how angry I am with myself for lying and cheating on everybody. If I sounded to harsh in my comments, it is because I’m being harsh with me.
Runner,
You so know the answer to this question: Attention!!!! It’s all about the ego.!
It’s not that they care about you, it’s about the benefit they may receive from the connection.
Ignore!
I know, I know, and I am ignoring. The guy was such a major AC and I’m totally over it so I’m not the least bit tempted. I can’t believe that as recently as Thanksgiving, I thought I had to be “friends” with this ex AC (as well as all the rest). Thank you Natalie and everyone on this site. I’ve cut every former AC out of my life, including the ones I work with. I walk past them in the hall without making eye contact and not saying a word.
Watching these past AC’s show back up for stroking is helping me maintain NC with the most recent ex. I look back at my past situations (not even casual relationships) and can’t believe I found any of them the least bit interesting. Sheesh, what was I thinking? I know that within time, I’ll look back at the last two years with this ex and be glad I escaped, AGAIN!
Why don’t married men who choose their wives call their wives to get their things stroked?
Runner,
“Why don’t married men who choose their wives call their wives to get their things stroked?”
They like the variety and attention.
wow, another post seemingly written just for me. This is exactly the type of relationship I recently found myself trying to to scrape myself out of. Thank god for your blog because reading this I realize I was not crazy…because I sure felt like it a few months in when I had to confront the issue. Keep up the good work.
this is interesting I am adhering to the NC RULE with an ex who came in and out of my life for the last few year wouldnt listen to what I wanted eg casual wouldnt comment just ignored and kept “expecting” me to meet him which in the past I did. Now I am stronger an will not meet but am finding it difficult to understand as other relationships just ended this one went on so long just as you describe, the benefits without the relationship even though we had lived together previously he was desperate to see me but wasnt “coming back” went on years jumped through hoops I hate to admit but now have no interest in the AC and have moved on though I doubt he has and know his pattern of trying to get me to meet him this is the part I will never “get” what for why? Sex, company the benefits of what he had before with no commitment this site is fantastic and helps me every day. I know he will contact me again but something has shifted its not an attractive package anymore the crumbs I mean!
I highly recommend the book “Why Men Love Bitches.” Very good read and is a must have if you are a single woman, trying to navigate through the treacherous waters of dating.
I have only been in long term relationships my entire life. I’ve been seeing someone now for nearly two months, and this article really struck a nerve with me. This guy was married for 18 years and apparently has been divorced for two. I don’t know how much he’s dated since the divorce, whereupon he found her in the arms of another man. While I’m sure this is extremely difficult to get over, I’m not sure he actually is over it and ready to fully give himself to anyone, including me. I, on the other hand, have been single now for two and a half years, when I dumped the lousy jerk who cheated on me with not just one but at least two other women, all while professing his undying love for me. We were supposed to get married, the whole nine yards. I’ve been single all this time and feel I’m finally ready to jump in and give my all to a man again.
The man I’ve been dating for the past couple months is sweet, kind, seems caring, appears to be into his kids and is a good father (from what he tells me), works hard (again, from what he’s telling me), and doesn’t appear to be a player. However, every time we spend more than an evening together he seems to go sort of M.I.A. for a few days after the date. A few weeks ago, we’d spent some time together on a weekend and when he left my house and said “I’ll call you later on” I didn’t realize that meant four days later. That was pretty much it for me and I was done but somehow, decided to give him another shot. Now, he spent most of this past weekend with me and left Sunday night telling me the same thing. This time I heard from him two days later. I have a really hard time with giving my body, mind and soul to a man all weekend long, cooking him breakfast, etc., only to be ignored for days on end afterward. So, this guy is probably going to get the boot unless he can shape up. I think this is who he is and that even if I tell him this is not acceptable and that I won’t tolerate it, he’ll probably stop doing it for awhile just to appease me. However, I want him to WANT to call me all on his own, not because I had to tell him to do so.
I have no problem being alone and can and will be alone for the rest of my life if he or any other guy can’t figure out how to treat a woman. I value myself and I think I have a great deal to offer someone. If you’re too stupid to figure it out, you will clearly get the gate. That is why I’m still single. I would rather BE alone, than to wish I WERE alone. So, let’s see how he takes it when I tell him this stuff is not going to fly with me.
Anyway, we all have to realize that we are beautiful, wonderful beings and we are worthy of a higher standard than some of us are willing to hold these men upto. I have too much self respect to be treated as if I were disposable!!!!
This is deep. Gonna have to re-read it. Wow. 😐
Oh boy! This has just told me exactly what the answer was to my question of 5 months now (“but if all he wanted was sex, why pursue me so much, why make so much effort when he was with me, why say all those things to me, why why why???!”)
“Doing all this other stuff makes their actions and intentions palatable. Just shagging around might say something else about them.”
BINGO Natalie! If there was one thing my ex could not handle, it was thinking of himself as anything other than Mr Perfect. And I am pretty certain now that a major reason why I have heard nothing from him in 5 months is that he now realises I know the truth about him and doesn`t want to have to either deal with it from me, or face it himself. Now when he can surround himself with fresh meat who are clueless as to who he really is. Good riddance.
WHOA again. This is simple yet complex. Wow.
It’s so easy to get caught up and caught out there. Gotta be extremely careful.
WOW.
My ex from a year ago was the reverse of this. He wanted to have a relationship, but by being alone, he was able to avoid feeling and dealing with things. When he was in a relationship, he had to feel and deal and he didn’t like that part!
As for sex? That went out the window! And not my fault!
Wow, this spoke volumes to me…I have been reading these posts (out of sequence as I just happened to stumble upon this page) for the last couple months and they’ve all been very helpful. However this one struck a cord because it really answered questions I’ve been having on the “breakup” of my casual relationship. I truly thought it was more but my “ex” was fresh out of a relationship when he started with me, blew hot and cold by telling me how I was a “good” woman, how great and awesome I was, how he wanted me mentally and emotionally as well as physically, seeing me damn near every day one minute then telling me he was unsure, that he didn’t want me to be a rebound girl the next. He even future faked saying that we’d go places and travel together. He swore he wasn’t seeing anyone else so we were exclusive by default, yet six months in when he really starting blowing cold, calling and making plans with me less and less I confronted him about the status of things. That’s when he said he “liked” me but things couldn’t be long term. I was crushed and couldn’t understand what went wrong but we said we’d be “friends”. A few weeks later I see pics on Facebook of him with another girl and from the looks of it they were kinda serious. When I asked him about it of course he downplayed it all and promised he didn’t start seeing her until things ended with me. Total lie. Then he says she doesn’t approve of him hanging around exs so we can’t ever see or hang out with each other but we can still communicate by text. I said no thanks to that and haven’t spoken with him at all now for over a month. I’ve still been trying understand why things happened the way they did but this post pretty much answers it. He was emotionally unavailable, only wanting a casual relationship to get him over the hump from his previous relationship! I was inded a Fallback Girl!
Thank you for sharing this was EXACTLY my last situation, reading it in print has validated that I’m not crazy…