Sometimes, if not often, we’re too quick to convince ourselves that we’re the architect of our own failure. We give ourselves too much credit for being in control of stuff that we’re not. As a result, when we experience disappointment and we’re of the inclination to analyse where we think we effed up (based on the assumption that disappointment’s caused by us not doing the ‘right’ actions to steer the outcome to the correct one), we latch on to our supposed error. It then becomes a rule for our future behaviour. Baggage Reclaimers’ big example of this is variations of, I ‘put out’ after X hours/days/dates/weeks/months. If I hadn’t, I wouldn’t have jeopardised the relationship.
So let’s think about this:
If we weren’t in a relationship at the time, how can we lose or harm something we didn’t have in the first place? Surely if the deal depended on both parties not sleeping together, sex wouldn’t even be on the table? Now, I’m not saying that dating is like the lottery. Still, if we were to break down or take a week off work every time our numbers didn’t come through, we’d set ourselves up for a great deal of pain. Our I-did-this-so-why-didn’t-they-do-that mentality would derail our life.
Some will argue that sex gave the other party the ‘wrong impression’. That’s pretty jacked up, though, when you consider that this would make the other party the authority. This person had the power to decide which way the relationship was going, which makes the date an audition.
The thing is, who did these people have sex with? An impersonator who stepped in to do the deed so that the date wouldn’t have to see things through after it became obvious that they weren’t around future wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend material?
On the basis of these experiences, people come up with follow-up rules.
‘I don’t sleep with people until X date/week/month.’
‘I won’t sleep with someone until they’ve said that we’re exclusive and that we’re in a relationship.’
We come up with rules to control our fear, guilt and other people’s behaviour.
Now granted, I can see where they’re going with this thinking. It’s not about whether rules are ‘bad’; it’s about recognising that people come up with ‘rules’ for what they should and shouldn’t do because they feel guilty for what they believe is having massively screwed up in the past. The rule is there to protect them from what they’re afraid of. It’s to manage their fear and guilt.
In their mind, waiting gives more control over unknown factors.
They reason that they can breathe out and ‘give up the goods’ (sex) because it’s official that it’s a relationship. They’ll say that plenty of people claim that the reason they’re in a relationship is that they ‘waited’. While leaving sex off the table means that it’s not there to cloud our judgement and put us in The Justifying Zone where we stay to validate having made the sexual ‘investment’ in the first place, those people aren’t still together because they controlled the situation with sex. They’re not!
Unfortunately, as many can attest to, a rule that works for some won’t work for others,
We can wait to have sex. Unless, though, who we wait with is a loving person and we’re waiting, not because it’s a ‘rule’ designed to control the uncontrollable but because it’s our value and what feels good and right for us, that doesn’t mean that post-sex, we’re assured of the relationship we want.
This is similar to not waiting.
If sleeping with somebody is what we want and we are conscious, aware and present enough to be able to handle the potential emotional consequences of sex, then we can rock on. But if our inner rule is to have sex because we’re afraid that if we don’t, we won’t be in with a chance of winning the grand prize, we’re already on the back foot before any pants get dropped.
When the rule doesn’t work, it’s not because we’re not good enough. That rule has nothing to do with something having worked in the first place.
Anyone who’s going to rule someone out for a relationship because they feel that we had sex, possibly at their instigation, ‘too quickly’ or because they’ve had to wait ‘too long’ isn’t the right person for us.
If the possibility of love can collapse on ‘one false move’ like that, we’d all be screwed.
You can substitute really any rule that you’ve created to protect you from the past happening again or to control your experiences, and the same scenario plays out. Trying to switch things up using rules to guide you just creates more frustration. An example of this where you play The Opposites Game. This is where you latch on to one factor that you think screwed things up and then choose an opposite partner next time around, only to wind up disappointed yet again. These frustrating outcomes reaffirm why these faux rules are a trap.
It’s no wonder people feel so demoralised by dating.
They give up who they are, including their values, to try to control the uncontrollable, only to find that no matter what they do and no matter how many times they tweak and switch it up, the ‘rule’ doesn’t work.
On top of this, there’s never just one rule. So even if they get into a relationship, the fear of not doing everything ‘right’ consumes them. They scrutinise their every move and try to follow other ‘rules’ out of fear of jeopardising the relationship. That’s no way to live never mind love.
Don’t put your disappointment all on this idea that you made ‘one false move’ or a series of them. You might be tricking yourself into believing that you missed out on something that wasn’t actually there. Or you might be missing the wood for the trees.
Tying yourself up in knots trying to figure out the magic rule and formula for ‘getting’ love? Untwist yourself. Cut you some slack by identifying and letting go of your rules. Instead, do things because you want to and it’s who you are, not because you’re trying to influence or even control others. Suddenly, it won’t feel as if the other party holds ‘all the power’ and you will be in a position to show up to your relationships as an equal.
Wow, it’s cool to be the first to comment so I’ll try to be general and see what others have to say before getting too personal.
I agree that “rules” based on behavior are put into place to protect us from harm, maybe after being hurt previously. The intent seems good but can cause harm to our own selves b/c rulemaking=control=manipulation. Sometimes, *we* are the ones who end up getting controlled/manipulated by our own rules!!
Men and women really, seriously, sincerely do view sex differently than women, on average. As a general observation, men don’t equate sex with love *initially* and don’t promise a loving relationship based on the timing of sex.
Relative to sex, specifically — a situation based on sex is just that, regardless of when the sex happens and/or over how long a period of time. I think “waiting” is/can be another name for the trap of trading sex for love. He waited b/c he loves or wants to love me, right? No. Well, we’ve been having sex for X number of months so I’m his girlfriend and we’re in a relationship, right? Errrr, nope!
Plenty of women have been dumped after the man has “waited” for however long. Also, being in a sexual relationship does not guarantee ANYTHING AT ALL! Except, you know, sex.
But also, a relationship based on love, care, trust and respect is that, again, regardless of when the sex happens. Although — the “rule” of not having sex too soon (e.g. first date) is probably a good one, thinking that *not* doing that=a potential relationship is probably, also a mistake.
This stuff is really tricky! Rules or not, it’s all just so hard. Throw in texting, online dating, etc. and its kind of a mess, really. So maybe “guidelines”/”common sense” is a better idea than a hard and fast “rule” about things.
Rachel (lupie)
on 06/12/2016 at 3:21 pm
Preach it MissPriscilla! 🙂
I think that’s the bottom-line:
“This stuff is really tricky! Rules or not, it’s all just so hard.”
For e.g., I know a woman who slept with a guy on their first date and now they’re happily married with a 1 year old son and a daughter on the way. On the flipside, I’ve slept with (many) a guy on the first date in the past, and I remember always feeling disappointed at the realisation that I’d been relegated to nothing more than a booty call afterwards, when in my head, I’m supposed to be the woman he wants to woo, go places with and introduce to friends and family. Silly me!
The matter of waiting to have sex, mustn’t be down-played though. I genuinely believe that the vast majority of men who sleep with a woman on the first date, automatically view you as a THOT/slut/easy lay. From that point onwards, they no longer see the need to pursue, respect and/or date you because you’ve given up the milk for free, so to speak. The expectation will always be that sex is on offer (even if you just want to cuddle and watch a DVD), because that is the tone which has been set for the relationship from day 0. Unless he really likes you and wants to progress with things, you’ll be hard pressed to find a guy who is willing to revert back to holding hands etc, after he’s already sampled your wares. Consequently, if you do decide to pull a 180 and remove sex from the table after the deed has been done, he’ll simply find another woman who will. These are the joys of modern day dating! Thanks to apps like POF and Tinder, people are optional and easily disposable or replaced. The mentality that I always seem to encounter is kinda like this, “Oh well, if Suzy won’t put out, that’s OK because Tameka will.” – I’ve heard guys who are old friends of mine say similar too (obviously I told them they were assholes at the time, but there’s only so much I can say to convince a 30-something year old man to be a better person).
I can’t help but believe that a lot of it is also down to sheer luck. The luck of meeting a truly loving guy who also happens to want a relationship too – even though you had sex on the first date. The luck of being in the right time and place to meet a guy who thinks you’re worth waiting for, or won’t judge you if you decide to follow your urges. For me personally, sex is off the table until I feel certain that the guy isn’t a fuckboii, EUM or assclown. If that takes 2-3 months and he loses interest – so be it. That’s usually when shit starts heading south anyways and I end up having to flush them. So I know that withholding sex isn’t merely a tactical maneuver for me, but a way of extending the discovery phase so that I don’t end up adding another notch to my bedpost (and feeling shortchanged in the process).
There really is no science to it… We just have to do what’s right for us and remain grounded/realistic yet hopeful for a positive outcome.
Beverly
on 08/12/2016 at 12:55 am
As a woman of mature years with an earlier history of many sexual experiences, and without making a moral judgment, I can say that all women should resist sex on a first (second, third …. ) date. It means NOTHING to most men, other than that you are an easy date. And why go there? As the post suggests, it will not ensure a good relationship and it can sabotage a budding one. And, it suggests that you are not mindful of the potential dangers out there. I think it better to nurture the relationship to a point where you share testing for STDs and have a mature conversation of what a sexual relationship may mean to you. Fully formed, mature men will understand and respect this approach. If he is not onboard with this, then drop him. He is not a keeper …if that is what you want.
Lauren
on 08/12/2016 at 4:40 pm
Hm … ‘it can sabotage a budding one’ … ?
OvertheDrama
on 06/12/2016 at 1:32 pm
I was just telling my friend that the best part of being 30+ is not giving a rats a$$ what anyone thinks. For me, it really has freed me to be who I am, instead of who society expects me to be. I’ve given up all of the rules that I created so that I can be the image of the good girlfriend, good wife, etc only to be disappointed over and over again.
Now I’m truly living on my terms, and doing what feels right for me. Hopefully some day, I’ll meet someone that will fit into my new life, but for now I’m content knowing that I don’t need rules to guide my life.
waterfalls
on 06/12/2016 at 8:36 pm
Amen to that, OvertheDrama.
waterfalls
on 06/12/2016 at 8:47 pm
Keep on keeping strong and live boldly, precious BR readers/ buddies. We are all worthy.
Nat, your honest advice and consistent encouragement is an invaluable gift to us all. Thank you wholeheartedly.
Elizabeth
on 07/12/2016 at 4:31 am
I’ve noticed married people have been the ones to egg me on in the sex department with dates. Married people are content with their love lives and don’t have to deal with romantic users/flakes who are “deeply in love” one minute but vanishing the next. As the one writer stated above, waiting is just another form of discovery. Do we really want to give ourselves to those who don’t deserve us? Through time people unfold.
Also, rushing into sex is a biological no-go for the man. Why would he want to invest long term in someone who could easily open her legs for any man, in essence, threatening the paternity of future offspring? Just like women’s spidey senses go off when a man desperately commits early on, men feel the same about promiscuity. Is it a conscious or subconscious reaction? Doesn’t matter if the result is the same.
O
on 07/12/2016 at 3:21 pm
“When the rule doesn’t work, it’s not because we’re not good enough but because that rule has nothing to do with why something worked in the first place.” totally agree…I’ve tried making men wait for sex, and I’ve slept with people on the first date, and it hasn’t made a blind bit of difference to the outcome. For me, focusing on the sex part of the relationship and when we should give it up only tends to make me feel worse about myself rather than focusing on bad behaviour on their part or just plain incompatibility – like the relationship going sour is a result of me waiting too long/not waiting long enough. I spent months beating myself up for ‘ruining’ things with a guy because I slept with him too quickly (he basically told me as such) but now I know that actually, he was just a loser who would have treated me badly regardless. Basically, I’ve learnt to do what feels right for me at the time and if it goes wrong to focus on the fact that it just wasn’t right rather than it all being about how I should or should not have behaved…
Heartbroken
on 16/12/2016 at 10:43 am
Yep, agree doesn’t make a difference when you sleep with them if they’re an asshole.
Don’t sleep with them just because you think it will make you look good in their eyes because they don’t care either way and will treat you badly regardless. Stick to your boundaries and what feels right for you. But remember that it does not afford protection from hurt when fooled by an EUM/AC/Narcissist, whatever label fits.
Lauren
on 07/12/2016 at 5:21 pm
The sex ‘rules’ remind me of the communication ‘rules’ — waiting X amount of time to return a text/call, making your text/call the same number of words as his text/call, not texting/calling twice consecutively, and on and on. You can spend your whole relationship — from meeting all the way through marriage — fretting about following such ‘rules’. But then you have less of a relationship partner and more of a chess opponent. Relationships shouldn’t require chess-esque strategizing.
MissPriscilla
on 07/12/2016 at 5:56 pm
I like everything everyone has said, every word — even some things that seem contradictory. I just want to respond based on very recent experience and then maybe more in depth later.
So — I think, never underestimate the extent to which some (okay, A LOT) of men see women as whores to score. These EUM guys are prone to very black-and-white thinking — the whole good/bad girl thing, the whole whore/madonna thing. For a lot of these EUM guys, NEITHER “rules” (e.g. waiting for sex) NOR “going with the flow” (e.g. getting it the first date) works for us. Like someone said, he was going to treat you badly anyway, regardless of when the panties shed.
And why? B/c no matter what you do, he already thought of you a certain way! And you may not have known that and/or missed the signals. You can never win! Don’t dare ruin the good girl image he has planned already or, conversely, just go on being his go-to hoe that he wants with no other redeeming qualities to explore/discover. For example, a scenario in which the relationship seems secure and loving and then something adventurous happens sexually. . .and, even though it was HIS idea, he thinks you’re a whore/slut! That type of thing happens more than people talk about (uhhh, threesomes, anal, I’m looking at you — a lot of that going on now that a lot of men think porn is real life).
A brief personal example: So, I’m kind of a musician and starting to get offers for gigs from people (men)/bands I don’t know. I am an “amateur” who is getting better (e.g. possibly paid). I try my LEVEL BEST to present myself professionally and to stay safe. But let’s be real — the low cut blouse here and/or high cut skirt there (NOT BOTH!) is kind of like a professional necessity — be attractive but not *too* sexual. Right? Okay.
Well. Last night, I’m awakened at 1 freaking AM by a guy with a band that I gave information to book with my (new) band. Really now?? Of course, I didn’t answer. This is someone I don’t know, mind you! That I gave information about emailing me, etc.
*Sigh* In this particular case, I just kind of feel like this is someone who wants all the cards to go his way. . .to his bed. Or at least want me to ACT like that. Me chasing. . .(hey, can I play with you? I’d really like to play with/for you!), sending texts at weird hours, which I think is kind of a pre-sex test: Wonder if she’s up at this hour? hmmm, let’s see.
Maybe I’m just overly cautious but to me? It feels like he’s checking to see what kind of hoe am I — even though I’ve done my level best to appear otherwise.
I think if I want to “get out there” musically or artistically, I definitely need to have some strong boundaries in place: Hey man, call don’t text and before, say, midnite okay? Unless we’re both out keeping “musician’s hours.”
What’s the real difference between boundaries and rules though, if both are meant to keep you safe or, at a minimum, not irritated by irritating stuff from people, especially men?
Heartbroken
on 09/12/2016 at 10:30 am
“For example, a scenario in which the relationship seems secure and loving and then something adventurous happens sexually. . .and, even though it was HIS idea, he thinks you’re a whore/slut!”
I can relate to this statement. At the start they treat you like a princess, want to ‘make love’ to you and then you get more adventurous, trying to please and keep it exciting, and further down the line they don’t its not making love any more, its just having sex.
If they are EU ACs you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Once the novelty with you has worn off, they will move onto the next challenge.
MissPriscilla
on 10/12/2016 at 11:59 pm
Errrrr- yep. Not much more to say than, errrrr, yep.
As an update to my little scenario that prompted kind of a rant — things got predictably weird with my musician situation.
As I told someone, if I’m not getting paid or getting laid(two separate events, mind you!), I pretty much like to be left alone.
I think getting the guy to talk about his wife and kids and me actually caring about THEM took the wind out of his sails, my gut feeling. That and not texting back at 1AM.
Yeah, creep on, creeper! To someone else. While I was disappointed at “losing” a chance to develop musically, I think I dodged a bullet.
That’s a different spin on the idea of “oh, maybe if I had done or said this or that things would have been different” sort of thing. I think you have to be open and realistic about small details right from the beginning that hint to things about a person we wish to overlook and potential hazards we wish to not see.
All in order to get a desired outcome that may not be in line with a reality that was present from the very beginning: I think of you with your legs open even though they are closed, play along, okay? Is that a loving attitutde, or leading to loving? I’m thinking nope.
I mean, what if I had actually gotten into a texting situation with this guy, under the professional pretense of our bands jamming together? Sure, the gig MIGHT have happened, and even still might, but I do need to be aware of other nuances and negative potential.
Someone ought to tell these slut-seekers, cheaters, etc. that calling on the way to pick up kids from school ain’t sexy! Free and clear of drama? That’s so sexy. I mean really, now, damn.
Heartbroken
on 12/12/2016 at 2:00 pm
Yes definitely there are signs from the start we overlook. It is because we live in hope that the person isn’t really an AC.
MM chased me for a year before I gave in. Literally charmed the pants off me.
For me there is not point in wondering if you’d said and done things different that the relationship would still be ongoing. I don’t think it would matter ultimately an EUM/AC is an EUM/AC – it would all come out in the wash eventually. Sadly we pay the price along the way and the leave a trail of destruction, with not a jot of remorse.
MissPriscilla
on 12/12/2016 at 6:01 pm
Errrrr- yep. Not much more to say than, errrrr, yep.
Sam
on 07/12/2016 at 7:57 pm
In my opinion, waiting to give yourself to a man should not be about whether he the right one, but waiting allows you to get to know him to see if you WANT to be intimate with him. Believe me when I tell you it hurts less when you find out he is a fool when you don’t sleep with them. It is easier to walk away unscathed.
Healing
on 07/12/2016 at 9:48 pm
“Believe me when I tell you it hurts less when you find out he is a fool when you don’t sleep with them. It is easier to walk away unscathed.” I agree, it’s less painful, and I’ve found much easier, when I haven’t slept with them. I personally wait quite a while – like months. I’ve also found that I’m less likely to talk myself into buying BS when I haven’t slept with them.
Hojay
on 07/12/2016 at 10:15 pm
Agree with all of the above. Personally though, I can’t wait that long to have sex with someone I am attracted to. I want to know if we’re compatible in that way. I won’t do it on the first date, maybe not even the second, for the simple fact that I’m not attracted to strangers (takes some getting to know them to get me going in that regard.) But I won’t be waiting for months. So once that’s ticked off, I’ll take my time to evaluate them further, see if they’re relationship material FOR ME. If they are consistent, persistent, while also being kind, respectful, and sincere after sex, well you just passed the first test, congratulations. If they drop off the face of the planet after sex, jesus, good riddance, wasn’t envisioning my future with you yet anyway, buh bye.
What shifted majorly for me was getting myself out of the passive, Pick Me! Pick Me! position and taking MY sweet time figuring out if I want to be with someone or not. Sleeping with them doesn’t mean I’m in relationship with them for ME. Going on a few good dates doesn’t mean they’ve proven themselves enough for ME. Call me weary on commitment, but I’m taking my sweet time. Funny side effect of flipping that switch is that I’ve never been pursued more heavily and more sincerely in my life. Once I stopped worrying about whether or not they think I am worthy of a relationship, and more about if THEY are worth the trouble for me, things changed dramatically.
Michele
on 08/12/2016 at 12:04 am
Amen Hojay. Thanks for sharing! I am the same way, I don’t have a time limit, I have a stranger factor. No strangers in my bed, that’s about it!
I have not been as confident, but after a past relationship (very recent past) I am hoping to take this same mentality follow through in all stages of my relationships and overall my life! Do what is best for me and if they aren’t what’s best then (like you said) good riddance!
I was recently in my first adult relationship. He passed all tests of “do we click.” I waited until I knew him for sex. I waited until I was ready to date. Things seemed to unfold beautifully. I still believe in this! But then…
It ended after making a commitment, after moving in together. Where I had to learn entirely new “rules.” I had never lived with anyone and things seemed to take a turn for the worse almost immediately. I had to ask myself new questions, am I going to be nurturing even though I’m a bit of a tomboy and very business minded woman, etc? I started to bake, cook, clean, decorate and take care of his dog – regularly. Nothing worked.
I’m now a firm believer, that in any relationship, the factors and determinants, the “rules” that we make up in our own minds – if you’re not doing them for you it won’t turn out how you want and if they never asked for you to fulfill those rules in the first place, it won’t make things better! We should take our worth wherever we go, into the relationship and right back out of it.
Sam
on 08/12/2016 at 2:19 am
Thank you hojoy
Your words resignated with me. Newly on the dating scene after a divorce, the sex rules seem silly. I love the idea of seeing if this is what YOU want. Power on girl and thanks for sharing.
BrendaL
on 08/12/2016 at 2:07 am
No sex before marriage is a good rule, in my opinion, and it is what is Godly. I think sex is for marriage and that is what God intended.
Karen
on 08/12/2016 at 3:23 am
Now that I’m older than dirt, I have determined sex is far better with a spiritual component added to it. For me, that means myself, my sex partner and a higher power making a triangle that collapses if one of the three checks out. Inside the triangle is a space that feels sanctified
Trust me, I was wild in my 20s, 30’s, 40’s and into my 50’s, so it’s not like I’m a prude. It’s just that I’ve managed to avoid STDs this long and I’m not about to take up with some gadabout who bring me herpes or some other unwelcome surprise they picked up from some tramp last month.
I don’t care if I lose some goofy potential lover because of these new(ish) rules. I’m no longer attracted to open relationship types, cheaters or EUs.
So there!
Diane
on 08/12/2016 at 3:47 am
How I feel about myself is much more important to me than sex.
Having sex on a first date or on a seventh date is the equivalent of having sex with a complete stranger. I’m only responsible for myself and my actions, not his.
Kristina
on 08/12/2016 at 4:54 pm
Why do people here keep talking about sex? That was only the example given for why we as women ruminate over the reasons a relationship failed. Sex was the example, but in the minds of real women, sex is one of many things we replay in our minds. the purpose of the article is to show that not doing or doing one particular thing isn’t what makes or breaks a relationship. If that happens, the relationship wasn’t strong enough to begin with. I have done that many times in relationships– thought “if only I had done this different”…”if only I hadn’t said that”. The moral of the story is that there are two people in a relationship, and an isolated action by one or the other (unless it’s something grave) isn’t what determines whether a relationship will last.
Lucy
on 08/12/2016 at 5:19 pm
I agree, Kristina, and everyone. It seems to me more about whether we should feel that responsible of the failure of the relationship. It’s not on us, we can’t control the other person, and it doesn’t make sense to do so.
As I was saying in a comment to a different post, I’ve realised that I’m always too conscious of what I do when a relationship – even a friendship, usually with some father figure – matters to me too much. This making it *too much* is what makes me overinflate it and hence overinflate the importance of my actions or lack thereof, as if everything was determinant of whether I’ll “earn” that “wonderful friendship”. As if I had to stop being myself to some extent – maybe not fully, and in different relationships it’s been different – but, say, strong, always smiling, always cheerful, taking things “easy”, “not worrying”, etc., not being too philosophical, etc. As if just being myself was not “it”. As if we weren’t”worthy” of being loved for who we are, even if we’re not “ideal”. Right now I don’t know where it comes from, but it’s been the pattern in my relationships, and even in some friendships (where the HE is a father or that “wonderful friend” figure, but actually platonic).
I’ve realised this when I’ve recently felt that, though I’m into someone, I treasure our friendship that much that I’d rather not make a false move so that he thinks I’m in love with him (not that it’s that deep, I just like him and have a good time with him), because what we have – just a friendship – is that good. But then I saw how huge a thing I’m building out of it, and what a huge baggage I’m carrying on my shoulders, not sure for what reason, which makes me feel uneasy and worried and over-responsible. Has it happened to any of you?
MissPriscilla
on 08/12/2016 at 6:25 pm
Kristina says: Q) Why do people here keep talking about sex?
I say: A) B/C rarely have I ever said to myself after loving a man and things go south, “Damn, I wish I hadn’t loved him like I did.” But I do say after sexing a man and things go south, “Damn! I wish I hadn’t had sex with him like I did (so quickly, so freaky, so frequently, etc.).”
🙂
Anyone else?
Elgie R.
on 08/12/2016 at 6:35 pm
Lucy, I think I’ve felt that way at times. You feel like it is up to YOU to control the flow. You become overly -conscious about what you say and do.
Sometimes I think it is sort of a reverse narcissism. I’ve come to realize I am not in charge of other people’s actions and thoughts, nor am I responsible for their reactions to me. I give myself permission to be me, without worrying about you. Just have confidence in yourself that you can establish the boundaries you want.
I think some of this “wanting to monitor ourselves” is because you want to hand over the responsibility to the other person for where a relationship goes….you are not confident in your convictions about your boundaries with the other person.
What I mean is, you say you value the friendship more than a “the one” relationship with this man, so if you allowing yourself to be who you naturally are, at all times…if that causes him to make romantic advances toward you, then if you felt control in yourself, you would politely be able to correct his assumptions and keep the friendship boundaries. But if he should suddenly declare “I think I love you”, would you jump on the bandwagon with him just to see where things go? If yes, then you were never firm on your friendship boundaries…and that is why you are constantly monitoring yourself. You are unsure of you. For some reason, you are inclined to hand the steering wheel of your life to someone else.
Lucy
on 09/12/2016 at 12:25 am
You’re so right, Elgie R.! It must be something like reversed narcissism. But it’s also a feeling that “I’d your good enough / able to be good enough, you’ll keep it”. It’s not that I value friendship more than a romantic relationship, it’s that I’m ruling that out out of fear of being vulnerable and making it awkward if he doesn’t feel the same way… But of course I’d rather it were more than that! 🙂
Trish
on 08/12/2016 at 5:36 pm
Here is my take. I was a virgin when I married at 30. That decision was and is still apart my core value system based on my faith. That being said, that decision did not (I REPEAT) did not guarantee a happy marriage!!! Yes he loved that about me. He loved to bring up how I gave him something that no one else had ever had. Lovely right? Well it would have been, had he not repeatedly cheated on me for the entirety of our marriage. His biggest complaint – I was not able to please him in the sack. This left me actually feeling guilty that I was not sexually active before marriage because then I may have had more experience with sex and possibly had been better able to please him. Here’s the problem with that. Now I’m questioning myself and my personal values. I’m questioning decisions that before I met this guy provided me with a sense of well being and contentment. I’m questioning everything based on the fact that this relationship has been a disaster. That is until he starts cheating on me with a much more experienced woman and they end up in the same boat-HA! It starts out fun and but eventually he start complaining to her that she is not pleasing him any more in bed (don’t ask how I know this – let’s just say i’m resourceful). My point here is that Natalie is so right on this. Neither she nor I can make him happy in bed or anywhere else for that matter because the problem is with him. He brings this whole never contented, never satisfied perspective into every relationship.
Lucy
on 08/12/2016 at 5:55 pm
Pardon me, but that is such rubbish!! What he told you, I mean. He cheated on you because he was a cheater. You not having had experiences before 30 means nothing about learning how to please a man – lots of couples stay together since Experience #1 and guess what – they’re happy and learn how to please each other… because they get to know each other, what each other likes, and love each other. Not because they’ve “practised” with someone else. Because there’s trust and they’re at easy with each other. So please, please forget this Monumental Nonsense. I mean, great that you know now that it WAS nonsense!
I’ve been sexually active before 30 (Not Much Longer, hey!), and do you think I learned a lot in my failed relationships? Only that it’s good to be with someone you love, and that it’s crap to be with someone you don’t, or who doesn’t love you. (To me, I mean. I too can’t have one night stands or jump in bed with someone very early or just for fun – it feels wrong because I don’t believe in it. And I respect that I may work for someone else, but I also respect that it doesn’t work for me.) Period. And also I’ve learned that I’m not uninhibited until I feel completely at ease with my partner – when I’ve spent enough time with him and am sure that I love him.
Ah, and I know another couple (friends of mine) where the girl married at 30 (yes, she too had been a virgin until she met her boyfriend – husband to be, and for her it was simply because she hadn’t liked anyone before), and they’ve been married for 17 years now and still together. Bull****. Sorry, no offense to your husband. But oh – LOL.
Lucy
on 08/12/2016 at 6:23 pm
Sorry about the tone of my previous comment, Trish! 🙂 LOL I was just a bit amazed at your husband (or now ex-husband?) because I remember how my mum yelled at me when I had moaned to her about what my first “man-friend” had told me when I was inexperienced at 25, lots of rubbish, about “learning”, “teaching”, and then disappeared on me. I was sooo anxious that it may have been because I didn’t know how to please him, and my mum then told me “Nonsense!! All will be fine when you’re with someone who loves you and who you love – there’s very little to “learn” here!” Anyway, two boyfriends ahead I learnt that it wasn’t about that, but about liking AND loving each other and wanting to be with each other. And that the other guy hadn’t disappeared on me because I was inexperienced, but because he was in a very wrong place and didn’t want a relationship (plus yes, he was also an AC in the way he handled me). That said, I’m so glad that you found out about your husband’s “problem” with the other woman! Not your problem at all…
Trish
on 09/12/2016 at 5:35 am
Hi there! No need to be sorry AT ALL!!! It is rubbish (and a few other words I can’t say here lol)! I really appreciate your words because that lie swam around in my head for so long. It a horrible feeling to doubt yourself like that. You may mean no offense, but I am happy to offend him lol. He beat me over the head for years that he was forced to wonder because I was not exciting in bed. It has been quite painful wondering what the girlfriend does that I do not. Why I’m not more uninhabited. I am in the process of moving on now. Another reason why I really appreciate your words. There is this little voice in my head is afraid that I’ll end up with someone else who thinks I am awful in bed. I may not be an expert on sex, but I know that trust has always been an issue for me with him. I really don’t know what he expects a woman to do when he treats the whole process like an audition to be the best!
Lucy
on 09/12/2016 at 2:55 pm
Trish, the way he behaved to you and the rubbish he told you only means that he wasn’t the man for you. That little voice is HIS, please ignore it. And it’s probably mixed with stuff we get from the media – TV shows, films and other such nonsense where they talk about “good in bed” non-stop. There’s no such think as “good” or “bad” when you’re excited to be with the one you’re with, unless, maybe, when one of you is into shady stuff or you have very different preferences and are incompatible on that basis, I guess. He just wanted to justify his cheating – he needed somehow. Also if what he needed was an experienced woman, he could have hooked up with anyone – no need to be in a loving relationship for *that* purpose, the latter is about *wanting to be together*, not about “what you can do to me” etc. Flush! Please stop doubting yourself, it’s all about getting validation from an AC, you don’t need it – I’m sure you’ll be perfect for the one you’ll have a trusting relationship with.
Heartbroken
on 09/12/2016 at 3:16 pm
Exactly. If he really cared there would be no conditions attached. If he bases his relationships on sex they are not going to last.
You deserve better Trish and a good man will be lucky to have you.
MissPriscilla
on 11/12/2016 at 12:13 am
Yeah, sorry that it happened but it’s not uncommon. Like I was saying way above, never underestimate the extent to which these EUM guys expect real women to behave like porn stars. They think they are seeking variety, when in fact they are seeking filth, with no real emotional connection attached to the physical act.
The black and white thinking there is “nasty girl” vs. “normal girl.” I say, be rid of him and don’t feel bad that he’s cheated on you with nasty girls!
Trish
on 11/12/2016 at 2:22 am
I can’t tell you how much I appreciate the encouragement from all of you. I used to kind of like just plain old me. I’d like to get back there again. Not performing for anyone. Just being the best me I can be.
Heartbroken
on 12/12/2016 at 1:51 pm
Yes they have no emotional connection. But what fascinates me is that they seem to become infatuated quite easily and confuse that with love, and they start future faking. Or are they pretending??
‘We’ try to please them in the misguided notion that if we give them what they want they will appreciated us, but as you say they just want to get off.
I don’t know about any one else but the point they start treating you like a tart, its time to say goodbye. The respect has gone, ages ago probably from him except he hid it well, and now from me towards him.
MissPriscilla
on 12/12/2016 at 6:04 pm
Errrrr- yep. Not much more to say than, errrrr, yep.
Heartbroken
on 09/12/2016 at 10:36 am
I agree with Lucy.
If he was a decent man, you would grow together, learn about each others likes and dislikes, and respect each other.
I think he is like the MM that I was seeing – relishes the thrill of the chase, excitement of a new affair and then once he’s got it, is bored and needs to start again with someone new.
May be that’s how will live the rest of his life, one fling after another.
Lucy
on 09/12/2016 at 2:58 pm
Ditto, Heartbroken! I too think it’s the chase and then BAM! it’s gone and he needs a new toy…
LOL and I just remembered “Cat on a Hot Tin Roof” – It’s simply not fair!! What about HIM making YOU happy?? Did that EVEN work?? 😀
MissPriscilla
on 11/12/2016 at 12:22 am
I think it is *we* who need to get bored with that type of behavior from guys. C’mon — doesn’t it feel flattering to be chased? Doesn’t it feel exciting to excite him?
If you don’t see through that from the very beginning and let himself burn himself out before we get sucked in, hurt and dumped. . .well.
Don’t text back at weird hours, don’t let him act like he’s single when he’s not, be clear that you value your work more than his or at least just as much, don’t select men based on superficial things like good looks and a false sense of fake future security, find out if he has a heart in between his big head (ego) and his little head (penis) which conspire together to our detriment.
I’m SO over it — too old, too tired.
Heartbroken
on 12/12/2016 at 2:10 pm
It is flattering to be chased. What woman wouldn’t find it flattering that a man finds her attractive. And for those women with low self esteem, it’s a home run for the AC! Perhaps they know and target accordingly.
For me personally it wasn’t necessarily exciting to excite him as you put, but more a case of wanting to make him happy because of the love I had for him.
Sometimes these guys are so clever that it is difficult to see through them, and when little red flags do start to appear we still give them the benefit of the doubt, because I think in our hearts we so want them to be decent.
My MM could be so affectionate and appear caring . Although I do now wonder about the last few times I saw him over the summer when he looked at me and hugged my tight whether there was glimmer of guilt at deceiving me of the fact that he was wining and dining another woman.
Feel tired too.
Lucy
on 15/12/2016 at 11:39 pm
Heartbroken, you’re right, it is flattering, and the more so when we have low self esteem. And of course then we want to live up to their expectations (in our eyes) and are afraid that they’ll stop seeing us “that” way. Like, when a relationship doesn’t work out, or when they are unavailable (e.g. attached), we’re usually afraid that it was the case of us losing our appeal, so to speak. That extends both to looks and character, or personality, so we want to stay both pretty and nice (kind, worthy, good) in their eyes, and after a breakup it may feel as if we had lost that thing which used to make us attractive to them. However, this comes entirely from our self esteem level, which is why when the latter is high enough, even a painful breakup/heartbreak/etc. will hurt, but won’t leave us so damaged inside to the point that we sometimes feel desperate, unlovable, not good enough, etc. This is why the chase, even when it’s from a married/attached guy, may feel SO exciting to us in the beginning. He *likes* us – yeah! – and he likes *us*, despite having a wife/girlfriend. Then the excitement wears off and it becomes a drug we depend on – we *need* to be chased by them to feel validated, loved, wanted. It becomes our security, because we’re that naturally insecure, and as soon as we stop receiving attention from the MM, we become anxious and miserable.
This is the distorted picture which we see through the lens of low self esteem. The very unhealthy prospect of finding ourselves in an affair, or in some other kind of unavailable relationship, seems exciting. A way out of it, on the contrary, appears painful. It’s like getting high to avoid something where we’re not entirely comfortable with (reality through the lens of a poor self esteem). Then when we get off the drugs it hurts and feels horrible, we want to get back on the drug, we feel empty and dehydrated (which we are because of the affair and our low self-esteem). And only when we’ve been “clean” for some time do we start to reconnect with ourselves and realise that we’re actually in a better place, ready (or soon to be ready) to go out there and make ourselves available for something real with someone available (not EU, married, or attached). A MM or attached guy is essentially an escape from something that may or may not work out, because a MM is something that’s “not supposed to work out” in the first place, so there’s “nothing to lose”, in principle. It may work out if it’s genuine love, but then it simply works out and got don’t get messed about and messed with. But something unavailable shouldn’t be “your option” in the first place.
Hope you’re getting better.
Xxxx
Heartbroken
on 16/12/2016 at 9:45 am
Lucy,
Reading another one of Nat’s post – i think as well as low self esteem there was perhaps inverted narcissism? I definitely have low self esteem- always comparing my self to other women who I consider to be really beautiful. And when MM came along I was always putting myself down in front of him. Not because I wanted compliments from him but because that’s how I saw myself. He said he I was gorgeous and beautiful and he was going to tell me that every time he saw me. And he did. He texted every day and yes that part is like being addicted to a drug – not receiving those texts any more, knowing that he is texting the new woman everyday instead.
I thought that we were getting closer and fooling myself that what we had was special. Hell, he even use to tell me I was special, that he adored me, that he couldn’t wait to see me again, etc. etc.
You say a MM is an escape, but I think I was living in the hope that he would at some stage want to be with me properly. But as you say it would only have happened if there had been love on his part. And he did not love me. I had no confidence in myself but let him in and opened my heart to him. But he was just amusing himself/passing the time time with me.
I think I am getting better, but on Wednesday I saw him with the new woman. Walking down the road acting like colleagues. He saw me and waved.
I don’t think he knows that I know who she was. I had a suspicion. Obviously when they were walking down the road they were not lovey-dovey. But that she is the new woman was confirmed when I saw them holding hands just outside the cafe where they were going for lunch.
MM and I use to go there for coffees and lunch.
Seeing them holding hands made me shake like a leaf. I wanted to throw up.
How can he behave like this???
I think he is a sexual predator. When I told a friend of mine who use to work with me, she told me MM had tried it on with her as well. Before me. He was asking how her husband was – trying to gauge if there were any problems and if so whether he could act like a shoulder to cry on, and then work towards getting her into bed.
I did see MM taking to another woman in his offices, all intent and close, when I went to see him early one morning. He told me she was going through a tough time as her mother was ill and he was just asking how she was coping etc., But really I think he was targeting another vulnerable woman.
I feel like a mug for being fooled by him. May be his is a narcissist? He always has lunches with various different women admin staff in different departments. Is he always looking for an ‘in’ with these women??
He is a total utter bastard. I am feeling angry now. And starting to hate him I think. Seeing them together was the switch. I almost wish I had gone up to them and said something to the new woman – told her that she wasn’t the only one he was f***king. I am having revenge fantasies and feel terrible about it. These thoughts are occupying my head…..may be I need therapy……
Lucy
on 18/12/2016 at 4:46 pm
Dear Heartbroken,
I’m so sorry to hear that you’re going through such hell ;( Yes, it’s a good idea to see a therapist because it looks like you need to express what you’re feeling, but breaking No Contact would not be a great idea. Feeling angry right now is just fine, and no, you don’t need to feel bad about it, it will pass.
The thing is, you had thought he was a prince, while totally ignoring that he had hooves (but hooves he had!), and then “all of a sudden” he brayed and… What’s THAT??? Adieu rose-tinted romance! Don’t be mad at you, love is blind when it starts from an unhealthy place. You definitely need to believe that you’re beautiful and lovely but not just because men are attracted to you – you’ve got enough of a proof of that – but you need to genuinely like yourself and stop comparing you with other girls. We’re all different, why compare? How is a lily more beautiful than a daisy? If you keep “objectively” (though there’s no such thing) putting yourself always down there, you’ll keep ending up seeing everything from down there and feeling lucky that someone’s paying you attention.
Yes it must be very painful when you see them with another woman, but he doesn’t need at all to know that you miss him “THAT” much. As Natalie says, He’s Just Not That Special! If he’s not an idiot he’ll know that you’re hurting, so his waving you proves once more that he doesn’t have a heart. FLUSH him. Grieve as much as you need, but have compassion of yourself and please place yourself higher in your own eyes. It feels right now that you can’t cope, that it’s too much, but there WILL be a day when you honestly won’t give a damn. You’ll feel liberated and free to start fresh. But first you might need to solve some unsolved issues as I remember you telling that you weren’t over a previous hurt when you started dating MM. So it’s definitely a good idea to share and talk.
A big hug,
xxxxx
Heartbroken
on 03/01/2017 at 1:42 pm
Dear Lucy,
Thank you.
I thought I would be able to put him out of my mind over a two week break over Christmas, but sad to say I could not – particularly when trying to sleep.
I am going to stop comparing myself to other girls, as I don’t think it is about looks where MM is concerned. He just targets women he thinks are vulnerable, hoping to get lucky.
‘How is a lily more beautiful than a daisy’ – beautifully put! xx
If someone doesn’t think I’m attractive or beautiful, that’s their problem, I don’t need their approval or attention – that’s what I’m saying to myself now.
I’m afraid that I have not totally stuck to NC. He has been texting me, but I can say that any reply from my side has been short. Working myself up to full NC.
You’re right in that he doesn’t have a heart – he didn’t care about leaving his wife just when she’s been through an op for breast cancer, just when she needed his support.
I think I am over my previous relationship. I don’t think about that any more, and have no feelings with regard to him any more. The one observation I do have from that relationship and MM is that they are both cowards as neither had the guts to tell me to my face that they wanted to break up/were in another relationship. The previous one told me in an email as an ‘oh by the way…’ and MM – well as we have mentioned before, he wanted to have his cake and eat it/overlap until he was sure of the new woman.
I’m still feeling pretty rotten about MM, so in a way glad to be back at work so that I am occupied. Still grieving I guess. I’m not sure which phase I am in the process – the angry phase I think as I am mentally cussing him, lol.
I hope you had a good Christmas?
xxx
BlueLagoon
on 09/12/2016 at 8:49 am
Watching my bestie go through the past year of dating one man after another, I have mixed feelings about this article. She sleeps with them far too soon, IMO, like after the first or second date, and gets emotionally attached almost immediately. This means that she then gets fearful and clingy and texts them constantly with LONG analyses of the relationship, her feelings, his feelings, what it all means, etc, before he’s even had a chance to get his pants back on. It chases them away. No, they weren’t the right men for her, but what (sane) man (or woman, for that matter) wants that sort of bombardment so early on, within the first few dates? I keep trying to get this through her head, to wait a bit longer for sex until you’re sure he’s a reasonable bet to try for something longer term, and then for Pete’s sake hold off on the novel-length analysis, but she just can’t get past her own insecurities, and yes, sabotages potential relationships. Sometimes it IS what we do that screws things up. If it’s a repeated pattern it bears doing some work on it.
Elgie R.
on 09/12/2016 at 1:34 pm
Hi, Blue Lagoon. About your friend…she will chase everyone away because she is using them for life support, which results in her sucking the life out of them. She has a big hole in her soul, a Grand Canyon of a hole, and she wants to fill it with external validation from a man. Almost any man will do.
So, it’s not a one false move situation with her. She views every man as her “last chance”. Her goal is to win validation from some man, ANY man. She gives too much too soon.
Until she examines why she can’t self-validate, she’s gonna keep hurting herself with empty connections.
MissPriscilla
on 11/12/2016 at 12:31 am
Until she examines why she can’t self-validate, she’s gonna keep hurting herself with empty connections. — well said.
This is a lot of why I started getting really into music. I never thought it would really amount to anything, and I still don’t — although the idea of “recording” and “performing” is vaguely exciting.
We really, seriously do need to find something, anything, more interesting and valuable to us than letting men control, “romance,” mashing together private parts, our emotions, etc.
I personally think that it is nearly impossible for a woman to screw and not want to hold on. Whereas, men really chose not to care until they chose to care. That’s just biology, oxytocin, reproductive orientation, ovulation and all of that — it doesn’t favor us.
Get a guitar! Write songs! I’d rather play and sing loud and off key than deal with these types of situations, ever again in life. Really.
Rules and all the kinds of games are for those who feel INSECURE in a relationship.
There are people who feel/think/believe that if they were acting in a ‘certain way’ or ‘saying certain things’ they would be liked MORE (vs. just being themselves)
For them ‘being themselves’ is a scary thing to do, they are afraid they will never be liked by anyone… unless they stick with some kind of ‘rules’ –
And I agree with Natalie – neither games nor ‘rules’ work!
AquaGinger
on 28/12/2016 at 12:01 am
G’day ladies! Maybe you can all help me out. I have a male best friend who I have known for about 10 years. He and I have always kept it pg-13 (we admit we have feelings for eachother). It’s a situation where one is available, the other isnt. Well he is with someone and has been for sometime now but he has told me flat out lately that he thinks we should get closer. He warned me .. “no falling in love, no chasing the other around.” Honestly I’m flattered because he is a great looking guy, and I am far from perfectly shaped. He’s boosted my self esteem over the years but he’s also hurt me when he disappears , goes all bi polar , and doesn’t have enuff time for me. I know other ladies have seen this before — what kind of rule book do u throw at a guy like this? My guess is he will suddenly text me and want to come by on his terms … a lot is on his terms. So what do I do.. risk it?
Heartbroken
on 03/01/2017 at 1:53 pm
He is using you – he wants to have his cake and eat it. All the future-faking is to lure you in. These men use flattery to fool you, especially if you think you are far from perfectly shaped, because they pick on your feelings of low self esteem.
All the warnings about no falling in love and no chasing are very well, but you may develop feelings for him and you will then get hurt. That’s what happened to me – a MM chased me, we started an affair, I developed feelings for him, he started seeing another woman and I found out. He has left his wife but is seeing this other woman. And I am left heart-broken.
If he wants to be close with you, he should get out of his current relationship. Although he sounds like someone that I would not trust. Sorry.
AquaGinger
on 07/01/2017 at 12:51 am
Thank you for your reply! I sat back and read what you said nodding my head. It blows my mind that after soooo many years of knowing him, that he would be like this. It only started 2 years ago, after he had some health issues. He has some anxiety issues and socially he retreats when he is upset. Well now he won’t even text me, the person that has helped him thru so much ! I saw him a few days ago and he future faked — he said I was so pretty and looking amazing (I’ve lost over 40 pounds). He flirted , and I just said thank u and kept it cool. Then he said he would try to stop over that night , as I have some things for him that he wanted. Well that’s the last I have heard from him. I texted him asking if he was going to come over… not a word. Is this part of keeping me in his back pocket ? I figured if he really wanted me for sex which he keeps hinting at, he would have come by . He hasn’t … and honestly I don’t know if I want to deal with him. I feel like my mind is scrambled !!! Any advice on him now ?
Heartbroken
on 30/01/2017 at 9:14 pm
Dear Aqua
Sorry, it’s been a while since I’ve been on BR. Going through a crap time with anxiety and panic attacks because of my situation. But any way with regard to your situation, you think that he wants you just for sex, but he hasn’t been in contact. My guess is he is getting plenty elsewhere.
I came across a blog about narcissists. Reading on there I am thinking that the Mm I was involved with is one – all lovebombing and seducing, the devaluation solent treatment and discard because they have some one new, but will ‘hoover’ by contacting you again to see of they can get something from you.
You might want to read up – Google ‘knowing the Narcissist’
In my opinion you are better off forgetting him. easier said than done, I know, because thats what I’m having trouble with. My MM is a lying cheating shit but he has gotten under my skin and he dominates my thoughts and not in a good way.
I do not text him or email or anything anymore and yet I hope for a text from him. But I know that any text would just be perfunctory, like a task rather than any genuine desire on his part to be in touch as he has a new woman. That makes me feel worthless.
Don’t let him make you feel worthless. He is not worthy of you. He doesn’t value you. Be strong and flush him.
AquaGinger
on 28/12/2016 at 12:18 am
Oh p.s he also has started future faking – he wants to take me to a Basketball game and buy our tickets. I think deep down he really does, but ……
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Wow, it’s cool to be the first to comment so I’ll try to be general and see what others have to say before getting too personal.
I agree that “rules” based on behavior are put into place to protect us from harm, maybe after being hurt previously. The intent seems good but can cause harm to our own selves b/c rulemaking=control=manipulation. Sometimes, *we* are the ones who end up getting controlled/manipulated by our own rules!!
Men and women really, seriously, sincerely do view sex differently than women, on average. As a general observation, men don’t equate sex with love *initially* and don’t promise a loving relationship based on the timing of sex.
Relative to sex, specifically — a situation based on sex is just that, regardless of when the sex happens and/or over how long a period of time. I think “waiting” is/can be another name for the trap of trading sex for love. He waited b/c he loves or wants to love me, right? No. Well, we’ve been having sex for X number of months so I’m his girlfriend and we’re in a relationship, right? Errrr, nope!
Plenty of women have been dumped after the man has “waited” for however long. Also, being in a sexual relationship does not guarantee ANYTHING AT ALL! Except, you know, sex.
But also, a relationship based on love, care, trust and respect is that, again, regardless of when the sex happens. Although — the “rule” of not having sex too soon (e.g. first date) is probably a good one, thinking that *not* doing that=a potential relationship is probably, also a mistake.
This stuff is really tricky! Rules or not, it’s all just so hard. Throw in texting, online dating, etc. and its kind of a mess, really. So maybe “guidelines”/”common sense” is a better idea than a hard and fast “rule” about things.
Preach it MissPriscilla! 🙂
I think that’s the bottom-line:
“This stuff is really tricky! Rules or not, it’s all just so hard.”
For e.g., I know a woman who slept with a guy on their first date and now they’re happily married with a 1 year old son and a daughter on the way. On the flipside, I’ve slept with (many) a guy on the first date in the past, and I remember always feeling disappointed at the realisation that I’d been relegated to nothing more than a booty call afterwards, when in my head, I’m supposed to be the woman he wants to woo, go places with and introduce to friends and family. Silly me!
The matter of waiting to have sex, mustn’t be down-played though. I genuinely believe that the vast majority of men who sleep with a woman on the first date, automatically view you as a THOT/slut/easy lay. From that point onwards, they no longer see the need to pursue, respect and/or date you because you’ve given up the milk for free, so to speak. The expectation will always be that sex is on offer (even if you just want to cuddle and watch a DVD), because that is the tone which has been set for the relationship from day 0. Unless he really likes you and wants to progress with things, you’ll be hard pressed to find a guy who is willing to revert back to holding hands etc, after he’s already sampled your wares. Consequently, if you do decide to pull a 180 and remove sex from the table after the deed has been done, he’ll simply find another woman who will. These are the joys of modern day dating! Thanks to apps like POF and Tinder, people are optional and easily disposable or replaced. The mentality that I always seem to encounter is kinda like this, “Oh well, if Suzy won’t put out, that’s OK because Tameka will.” – I’ve heard guys who are old friends of mine say similar too (obviously I told them they were assholes at the time, but there’s only so much I can say to convince a 30-something year old man to be a better person).
I can’t help but believe that a lot of it is also down to sheer luck. The luck of meeting a truly loving guy who also happens to want a relationship too – even though you had sex on the first date. The luck of being in the right time and place to meet a guy who thinks you’re worth waiting for, or won’t judge you if you decide to follow your urges. For me personally, sex is off the table until I feel certain that the guy isn’t a fuckboii, EUM or assclown. If that takes 2-3 months and he loses interest – so be it. That’s usually when shit starts heading south anyways and I end up having to flush them. So I know that withholding sex isn’t merely a tactical maneuver for me, but a way of extending the discovery phase so that I don’t end up adding another notch to my bedpost (and feeling shortchanged in the process).
There really is no science to it… We just have to do what’s right for us and remain grounded/realistic yet hopeful for a positive outcome.
As a woman of mature years with an earlier history of many sexual experiences, and without making a moral judgment, I can say that all women should resist sex on a first (second, third …. ) date. It means NOTHING to most men, other than that you are an easy date. And why go there? As the post suggests, it will not ensure a good relationship and it can sabotage a budding one. And, it suggests that you are not mindful of the potential dangers out there. I think it better to nurture the relationship to a point where you share testing for STDs and have a mature conversation of what a sexual relationship may mean to you. Fully formed, mature men will understand and respect this approach. If he is not onboard with this, then drop him. He is not a keeper …if that is what you want.
Hm … ‘it can sabotage a budding one’ … ?
I was just telling my friend that the best part of being 30+ is not giving a rats a$$ what anyone thinks. For me, it really has freed me to be who I am, instead of who society expects me to be. I’ve given up all of the rules that I created so that I can be the image of the good girlfriend, good wife, etc only to be disappointed over and over again.
Now I’m truly living on my terms, and doing what feels right for me. Hopefully some day, I’ll meet someone that will fit into my new life, but for now I’m content knowing that I don’t need rules to guide my life.
Amen to that, OvertheDrama.
Keep on keeping strong and live boldly, precious BR readers/ buddies. We are all worthy.
Nat, your honest advice and consistent encouragement is an invaluable gift to us all. Thank you wholeheartedly.
I’ve noticed married people have been the ones to egg me on in the sex department with dates. Married people are content with their love lives and don’t have to deal with romantic users/flakes who are “deeply in love” one minute but vanishing the next. As the one writer stated above, waiting is just another form of discovery. Do we really want to give ourselves to those who don’t deserve us? Through time people unfold.
Also, rushing into sex is a biological no-go for the man. Why would he want to invest long term in someone who could easily open her legs for any man, in essence, threatening the paternity of future offspring? Just like women’s spidey senses go off when a man desperately commits early on, men feel the same about promiscuity. Is it a conscious or subconscious reaction? Doesn’t matter if the result is the same.
“When the rule doesn’t work, it’s not because we’re not good enough but because that rule has nothing to do with why something worked in the first place.” totally agree…I’ve tried making men wait for sex, and I’ve slept with people on the first date, and it hasn’t made a blind bit of difference to the outcome. For me, focusing on the sex part of the relationship and when we should give it up only tends to make me feel worse about myself rather than focusing on bad behaviour on their part or just plain incompatibility – like the relationship going sour is a result of me waiting too long/not waiting long enough. I spent months beating myself up for ‘ruining’ things with a guy because I slept with him too quickly (he basically told me as such) but now I know that actually, he was just a loser who would have treated me badly regardless. Basically, I’ve learnt to do what feels right for me at the time and if it goes wrong to focus on the fact that it just wasn’t right rather than it all being about how I should or should not have behaved…
Yep, agree doesn’t make a difference when you sleep with them if they’re an asshole.
Don’t sleep with them just because you think it will make you look good in their eyes because they don’t care either way and will treat you badly regardless. Stick to your boundaries and what feels right for you. But remember that it does not afford protection from hurt when fooled by an EUM/AC/Narcissist, whatever label fits.
The sex ‘rules’ remind me of the communication ‘rules’ — waiting X amount of time to return a text/call, making your text/call the same number of words as his text/call, not texting/calling twice consecutively, and on and on. You can spend your whole relationship — from meeting all the way through marriage — fretting about following such ‘rules’. But then you have less of a relationship partner and more of a chess opponent. Relationships shouldn’t require chess-esque strategizing.
I like everything everyone has said, every word — even some things that seem contradictory. I just want to respond based on very recent experience and then maybe more in depth later.
So — I think, never underestimate the extent to which some (okay, A LOT) of men see women as whores to score. These EUM guys are prone to very black-and-white thinking — the whole good/bad girl thing, the whole whore/madonna thing. For a lot of these EUM guys, NEITHER “rules” (e.g. waiting for sex) NOR “going with the flow” (e.g. getting it the first date) works for us. Like someone said, he was going to treat you badly anyway, regardless of when the panties shed.
And why? B/c no matter what you do, he already thought of you a certain way! And you may not have known that and/or missed the signals. You can never win! Don’t dare ruin the good girl image he has planned already or, conversely, just go on being his go-to hoe that he wants with no other redeeming qualities to explore/discover. For example, a scenario in which the relationship seems secure and loving and then something adventurous happens sexually. . .and, even though it was HIS idea, he thinks you’re a whore/slut! That type of thing happens more than people talk about (uhhh, threesomes, anal, I’m looking at you — a lot of that going on now that a lot of men think porn is real life).
A brief personal example: So, I’m kind of a musician and starting to get offers for gigs from people (men)/bands I don’t know. I am an “amateur” who is getting better (e.g. possibly paid). I try my LEVEL BEST to present myself professionally and to stay safe. But let’s be real — the low cut blouse here and/or high cut skirt there (NOT BOTH!) is kind of like a professional necessity — be attractive but not *too* sexual. Right? Okay.
Well. Last night, I’m awakened at 1 freaking AM by a guy with a band that I gave information to book with my (new) band. Really now?? Of course, I didn’t answer. This is someone I don’t know, mind you! That I gave information about emailing me, etc.
*Sigh* In this particular case, I just kind of feel like this is someone who wants all the cards to go his way. . .to his bed. Or at least want me to ACT like that. Me chasing. . .(hey, can I play with you? I’d really like to play with/for you!), sending texts at weird hours, which I think is kind of a pre-sex test: Wonder if she’s up at this hour? hmmm, let’s see.
Maybe I’m just overly cautious but to me? It feels like he’s checking to see what kind of hoe am I — even though I’ve done my level best to appear otherwise.
I think if I want to “get out there” musically or artistically, I definitely need to have some strong boundaries in place: Hey man, call don’t text and before, say, midnite okay? Unless we’re both out keeping “musician’s hours.”
What’s the real difference between boundaries and rules though, if both are meant to keep you safe or, at a minimum, not irritated by irritating stuff from people, especially men?
“For example, a scenario in which the relationship seems secure and loving and then something adventurous happens sexually. . .and, even though it was HIS idea, he thinks you’re a whore/slut!”
I can relate to this statement. At the start they treat you like a princess, want to ‘make love’ to you and then you get more adventurous, trying to please and keep it exciting, and further down the line they don’t its not making love any more, its just having sex.
If they are EU ACs you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Once the novelty with you has worn off, they will move onto the next challenge.
Errrrr- yep. Not much more to say than, errrrr, yep.
As an update to my little scenario that prompted kind of a rant — things got predictably weird with my musician situation.
As I told someone, if I’m not getting paid or getting laid(two separate events, mind you!), I pretty much like to be left alone.
I think getting the guy to talk about his wife and kids and me actually caring about THEM took the wind out of his sails, my gut feeling. That and not texting back at 1AM.
Yeah, creep on, creeper! To someone else. While I was disappointed at “losing” a chance to develop musically, I think I dodged a bullet.
That’s a different spin on the idea of “oh, maybe if I had done or said this or that things would have been different” sort of thing. I think you have to be open and realistic about small details right from the beginning that hint to things about a person we wish to overlook and potential hazards we wish to not see.
All in order to get a desired outcome that may not be in line with a reality that was present from the very beginning: I think of you with your legs open even though they are closed, play along, okay? Is that a loving attitutde, or leading to loving? I’m thinking nope.
I mean, what if I had actually gotten into a texting situation with this guy, under the professional pretense of our bands jamming together? Sure, the gig MIGHT have happened, and even still might, but I do need to be aware of other nuances and negative potential.
Someone ought to tell these slut-seekers, cheaters, etc. that calling on the way to pick up kids from school ain’t sexy! Free and clear of drama? That’s so sexy. I mean really, now, damn.
Yes definitely there are signs from the start we overlook. It is because we live in hope that the person isn’t really an AC.
MM chased me for a year before I gave in. Literally charmed the pants off me.
For me there is not point in wondering if you’d said and done things different that the relationship would still be ongoing. I don’t think it would matter ultimately an EUM/AC is an EUM/AC – it would all come out in the wash eventually. Sadly we pay the price along the way and the leave a trail of destruction, with not a jot of remorse.
Errrrr- yep. Not much more to say than, errrrr, yep.
In my opinion, waiting to give yourself to a man should not be about whether he the right one, but waiting allows you to get to know him to see if you WANT to be intimate with him. Believe me when I tell you it hurts less when you find out he is a fool when you don’t sleep with them. It is easier to walk away unscathed.
“Believe me when I tell you it hurts less when you find out he is a fool when you don’t sleep with them. It is easier to walk away unscathed.” I agree, it’s less painful, and I’ve found much easier, when I haven’t slept with them. I personally wait quite a while – like months. I’ve also found that I’m less likely to talk myself into buying BS when I haven’t slept with them.
Agree with all of the above. Personally though, I can’t wait that long to have sex with someone I am attracted to. I want to know if we’re compatible in that way. I won’t do it on the first date, maybe not even the second, for the simple fact that I’m not attracted to strangers (takes some getting to know them to get me going in that regard.) But I won’t be waiting for months. So once that’s ticked off, I’ll take my time to evaluate them further, see if they’re relationship material FOR ME. If they are consistent, persistent, while also being kind, respectful, and sincere after sex, well you just passed the first test, congratulations. If they drop off the face of the planet after sex, jesus, good riddance, wasn’t envisioning my future with you yet anyway, buh bye.
What shifted majorly for me was getting myself out of the passive, Pick Me! Pick Me! position and taking MY sweet time figuring out if I want to be with someone or not. Sleeping with them doesn’t mean I’m in relationship with them for ME. Going on a few good dates doesn’t mean they’ve proven themselves enough for ME. Call me weary on commitment, but I’m taking my sweet time. Funny side effect of flipping that switch is that I’ve never been pursued more heavily and more sincerely in my life. Once I stopped worrying about whether or not they think I am worthy of a relationship, and more about if THEY are worth the trouble for me, things changed dramatically.
Amen Hojay. Thanks for sharing! I am the same way, I don’t have a time limit, I have a stranger factor. No strangers in my bed, that’s about it!
I have not been as confident, but after a past relationship (very recent past) I am hoping to take this same mentality follow through in all stages of my relationships and overall my life! Do what is best for me and if they aren’t what’s best then (like you said) good riddance!
I was recently in my first adult relationship. He passed all tests of “do we click.” I waited until I knew him for sex. I waited until I was ready to date. Things seemed to unfold beautifully. I still believe in this! But then…
It ended after making a commitment, after moving in together. Where I had to learn entirely new “rules.” I had never lived with anyone and things seemed to take a turn for the worse almost immediately. I had to ask myself new questions, am I going to be nurturing even though I’m a bit of a tomboy and very business minded woman, etc? I started to bake, cook, clean, decorate and take care of his dog – regularly. Nothing worked.
I’m now a firm believer, that in any relationship, the factors and determinants, the “rules” that we make up in our own minds – if you’re not doing them for you it won’t turn out how you want and if they never asked for you to fulfill those rules in the first place, it won’t make things better! We should take our worth wherever we go, into the relationship and right back out of it.
Thank you hojoy
Your words resignated with me. Newly on the dating scene after a divorce, the sex rules seem silly. I love the idea of seeing if this is what YOU want. Power on girl and thanks for sharing.
No sex before marriage is a good rule, in my opinion, and it is what is Godly. I think sex is for marriage and that is what God intended.
Now that I’m older than dirt, I have determined sex is far better with a spiritual component added to it. For me, that means myself, my sex partner and a higher power making a triangle that collapses if one of the three checks out. Inside the triangle is a space that feels sanctified
Trust me, I was wild in my 20s, 30’s, 40’s and into my 50’s, so it’s not like I’m a prude. It’s just that I’ve managed to avoid STDs this long and I’m not about to take up with some gadabout who bring me herpes or some other unwelcome surprise they picked up from some tramp last month.
I don’t care if I lose some goofy potential lover because of these new(ish) rules. I’m no longer attracted to open relationship types, cheaters or EUs.
So there!
How I feel about myself is much more important to me than sex.
Having sex on a first date or on a seventh date is the equivalent of having sex with a complete stranger. I’m only responsible for myself and my actions, not his.
Why do people here keep talking about sex? That was only the example given for why we as women ruminate over the reasons a relationship failed. Sex was the example, but in the minds of real women, sex is one of many things we replay in our minds. the purpose of the article is to show that not doing or doing one particular thing isn’t what makes or breaks a relationship. If that happens, the relationship wasn’t strong enough to begin with. I have done that many times in relationships– thought “if only I had done this different”…”if only I hadn’t said that”. The moral of the story is that there are two people in a relationship, and an isolated action by one or the other (unless it’s something grave) isn’t what determines whether a relationship will last.
I agree, Kristina, and everyone. It seems to me more about whether we should feel that responsible of the failure of the relationship. It’s not on us, we can’t control the other person, and it doesn’t make sense to do so.
As I was saying in a comment to a different post, I’ve realised that I’m always too conscious of what I do when a relationship – even a friendship, usually with some father figure – matters to me too much. This making it *too much* is what makes me overinflate it and hence overinflate the importance of my actions or lack thereof, as if everything was determinant of whether I’ll “earn” that “wonderful friendship”. As if I had to stop being myself to some extent – maybe not fully, and in different relationships it’s been different – but, say, strong, always smiling, always cheerful, taking things “easy”, “not worrying”, etc., not being too philosophical, etc. As if just being myself was not “it”. As if we weren’t”worthy” of being loved for who we are, even if we’re not “ideal”. Right now I don’t know where it comes from, but it’s been the pattern in my relationships, and even in some friendships (where the HE is a father or that “wonderful friend” figure, but actually platonic).
I’ve realised this when I’ve recently felt that, though I’m into someone, I treasure our friendship that much that I’d rather not make a false move so that he thinks I’m in love with him (not that it’s that deep, I just like him and have a good time with him), because what we have – just a friendship – is that good. But then I saw how huge a thing I’m building out of it, and what a huge baggage I’m carrying on my shoulders, not sure for what reason, which makes me feel uneasy and worried and over-responsible. Has it happened to any of you?
Kristina says: Q) Why do people here keep talking about sex?
I say: A) B/C rarely have I ever said to myself after loving a man and things go south, “Damn, I wish I hadn’t loved him like I did.” But I do say after sexing a man and things go south, “Damn! I wish I hadn’t had sex with him like I did (so quickly, so freaky, so frequently, etc.).”
🙂
Anyone else?
Lucy, I think I’ve felt that way at times. You feel like it is up to YOU to control the flow. You become overly -conscious about what you say and do.
Sometimes I think it is sort of a reverse narcissism. I’ve come to realize I am not in charge of other people’s actions and thoughts, nor am I responsible for their reactions to me. I give myself permission to be me, without worrying about you. Just have confidence in yourself that you can establish the boundaries you want.
I think some of this “wanting to monitor ourselves” is because you want to hand over the responsibility to the other person for where a relationship goes….you are not confident in your convictions about your boundaries with the other person.
What I mean is, you say you value the friendship more than a “the one” relationship with this man, so if you allowing yourself to be who you naturally are, at all times…if that causes him to make romantic advances toward you, then if you felt control in yourself, you would politely be able to correct his assumptions and keep the friendship boundaries. But if he should suddenly declare “I think I love you”, would you jump on the bandwagon with him just to see where things go? If yes, then you were never firm on your friendship boundaries…and that is why you are constantly monitoring yourself. You are unsure of you. For some reason, you are inclined to hand the steering wheel of your life to someone else.
You’re so right, Elgie R.! It must be something like reversed narcissism. But it’s also a feeling that “I’d your good enough / able to be good enough, you’ll keep it”. It’s not that I value friendship more than a romantic relationship, it’s that I’m ruling that out out of fear of being vulnerable and making it awkward if he doesn’t feel the same way… But of course I’d rather it were more than that! 🙂
Here is my take. I was a virgin when I married at 30. That decision was and is still apart my core value system based on my faith. That being said, that decision did not (I REPEAT) did not guarantee a happy marriage!!! Yes he loved that about me. He loved to bring up how I gave him something that no one else had ever had. Lovely right? Well it would have been, had he not repeatedly cheated on me for the entirety of our marriage. His biggest complaint – I was not able to please him in the sack. This left me actually feeling guilty that I was not sexually active before marriage because then I may have had more experience with sex and possibly had been better able to please him. Here’s the problem with that. Now I’m questioning myself and my personal values. I’m questioning decisions that before I met this guy provided me with a sense of well being and contentment. I’m questioning everything based on the fact that this relationship has been a disaster. That is until he starts cheating on me with a much more experienced woman and they end up in the same boat-HA! It starts out fun and but eventually he start complaining to her that she is not pleasing him any more in bed (don’t ask how I know this – let’s just say i’m resourceful). My point here is that Natalie is so right on this. Neither she nor I can make him happy in bed or anywhere else for that matter because the problem is with him. He brings this whole never contented, never satisfied perspective into every relationship.
Pardon me, but that is such rubbish!! What he told you, I mean. He cheated on you because he was a cheater. You not having had experiences before 30 means nothing about learning how to please a man – lots of couples stay together since Experience #1 and guess what – they’re happy and learn how to please each other… because they get to know each other, what each other likes, and love each other. Not because they’ve “practised” with someone else. Because there’s trust and they’re at easy with each other. So please, please forget this Monumental Nonsense. I mean, great that you know now that it WAS nonsense!
I’ve been sexually active before 30 (Not Much Longer, hey!), and do you think I learned a lot in my failed relationships? Only that it’s good to be with someone you love, and that it’s crap to be with someone you don’t, or who doesn’t love you. (To me, I mean. I too can’t have one night stands or jump in bed with someone very early or just for fun – it feels wrong because I don’t believe in it. And I respect that I may work for someone else, but I also respect that it doesn’t work for me.) Period. And also I’ve learned that I’m not uninhibited until I feel completely at ease with my partner – when I’ve spent enough time with him and am sure that I love him.
Ah, and I know another couple (friends of mine) where the girl married at 30 (yes, she too had been a virgin until she met her boyfriend – husband to be, and for her it was simply because she hadn’t liked anyone before), and they’ve been married for 17 years now and still together. Bull****. Sorry, no offense to your husband. But oh – LOL.
Sorry about the tone of my previous comment, Trish! 🙂 LOL I was just a bit amazed at your husband (or now ex-husband?) because I remember how my mum yelled at me when I had moaned to her about what my first “man-friend” had told me when I was inexperienced at 25, lots of rubbish, about “learning”, “teaching”, and then disappeared on me. I was sooo anxious that it may have been because I didn’t know how to please him, and my mum then told me “Nonsense!! All will be fine when you’re with someone who loves you and who you love – there’s very little to “learn” here!” Anyway, two boyfriends ahead I learnt that it wasn’t about that, but about liking AND loving each other and wanting to be with each other. And that the other guy hadn’t disappeared on me because I was inexperienced, but because he was in a very wrong place and didn’t want a relationship (plus yes, he was also an AC in the way he handled me). That said, I’m so glad that you found out about your husband’s “problem” with the other woman! Not your problem at all…
Hi there! No need to be sorry AT ALL!!! It is rubbish (and a few other words I can’t say here lol)! I really appreciate your words because that lie swam around in my head for so long. It a horrible feeling to doubt yourself like that. You may mean no offense, but I am happy to offend him lol. He beat me over the head for years that he was forced to wonder because I was not exciting in bed. It has been quite painful wondering what the girlfriend does that I do not. Why I’m not more uninhabited. I am in the process of moving on now. Another reason why I really appreciate your words. There is this little voice in my head is afraid that I’ll end up with someone else who thinks I am awful in bed. I may not be an expert on sex, but I know that trust has always been an issue for me with him. I really don’t know what he expects a woman to do when he treats the whole process like an audition to be the best!
Trish, the way he behaved to you and the rubbish he told you only means that he wasn’t the man for you. That little voice is HIS, please ignore it. And it’s probably mixed with stuff we get from the media – TV shows, films and other such nonsense where they talk about “good in bed” non-stop. There’s no such think as “good” or “bad” when you’re excited to be with the one you’re with, unless, maybe, when one of you is into shady stuff or you have very different preferences and are incompatible on that basis, I guess. He just wanted to justify his cheating – he needed somehow. Also if what he needed was an experienced woman, he could have hooked up with anyone – no need to be in a loving relationship for *that* purpose, the latter is about *wanting to be together*, not about “what you can do to me” etc. Flush! Please stop doubting yourself, it’s all about getting validation from an AC, you don’t need it – I’m sure you’ll be perfect for the one you’ll have a trusting relationship with.
Exactly. If he really cared there would be no conditions attached. If he bases his relationships on sex they are not going to last.
You deserve better Trish and a good man will be lucky to have you.
Yeah, sorry that it happened but it’s not uncommon. Like I was saying way above, never underestimate the extent to which these EUM guys expect real women to behave like porn stars. They think they are seeking variety, when in fact they are seeking filth, with no real emotional connection attached to the physical act.
The black and white thinking there is “nasty girl” vs. “normal girl.” I say, be rid of him and don’t feel bad that he’s cheated on you with nasty girls!
I can’t tell you how much I appreciate the encouragement from all of you. I used to kind of like just plain old me. I’d like to get back there again. Not performing for anyone. Just being the best me I can be.
Yes they have no emotional connection. But what fascinates me is that they seem to become infatuated quite easily and confuse that with love, and they start future faking. Or are they pretending??
‘We’ try to please them in the misguided notion that if we give them what they want they will appreciated us, but as you say they just want to get off.
I don’t know about any one else but the point they start treating you like a tart, its time to say goodbye. The respect has gone, ages ago probably from him except he hid it well, and now from me towards him.
Errrrr- yep. Not much more to say than, errrrr, yep.
I agree with Lucy.
If he was a decent man, you would grow together, learn about each others likes and dislikes, and respect each other.
I think he is like the MM that I was seeing – relishes the thrill of the chase, excitement of a new affair and then once he’s got it, is bored and needs to start again with someone new.
May be that’s how will live the rest of his life, one fling after another.
Ditto, Heartbroken! I too think it’s the chase and then BAM! it’s gone and he needs a new toy…
LOL and I just remembered “Cat on a Hot Tin Roof” – It’s simply not fair!! What about HIM making YOU happy?? Did that EVEN work?? 😀
I think it is *we* who need to get bored with that type of behavior from guys. C’mon — doesn’t it feel flattering to be chased? Doesn’t it feel exciting to excite him?
If you don’t see through that from the very beginning and let himself burn himself out before we get sucked in, hurt and dumped. . .well.
Don’t text back at weird hours, don’t let him act like he’s single when he’s not, be clear that you value your work more than his or at least just as much, don’t select men based on superficial things like good looks and a false sense of fake future security, find out if he has a heart in between his big head (ego) and his little head (penis) which conspire together to our detriment.
I’m SO over it — too old, too tired.
It is flattering to be chased. What woman wouldn’t find it flattering that a man finds her attractive. And for those women with low self esteem, it’s a home run for the AC! Perhaps they know and target accordingly.
For me personally it wasn’t necessarily exciting to excite him as you put, but more a case of wanting to make him happy because of the love I had for him.
Sometimes these guys are so clever that it is difficult to see through them, and when little red flags do start to appear we still give them the benefit of the doubt, because I think in our hearts we so want them to be decent.
My MM could be so affectionate and appear caring . Although I do now wonder about the last few times I saw him over the summer when he looked at me and hugged my tight whether there was glimmer of guilt at deceiving me of the fact that he was wining and dining another woman.
Feel tired too.
Heartbroken, you’re right, it is flattering, and the more so when we have low self esteem. And of course then we want to live up to their expectations (in our eyes) and are afraid that they’ll stop seeing us “that” way. Like, when a relationship doesn’t work out, or when they are unavailable (e.g. attached), we’re usually afraid that it was the case of us losing our appeal, so to speak. That extends both to looks and character, or personality, so we want to stay both pretty and nice (kind, worthy, good) in their eyes, and after a breakup it may feel as if we had lost that thing which used to make us attractive to them. However, this comes entirely from our self esteem level, which is why when the latter is high enough, even a painful breakup/heartbreak/etc. will hurt, but won’t leave us so damaged inside to the point that we sometimes feel desperate, unlovable, not good enough, etc. This is why the chase, even when it’s from a married/attached guy, may feel SO exciting to us in the beginning. He *likes* us – yeah! – and he likes *us*, despite having a wife/girlfriend. Then the excitement wears off and it becomes a drug we depend on – we *need* to be chased by them to feel validated, loved, wanted. It becomes our security, because we’re that naturally insecure, and as soon as we stop receiving attention from the MM, we become anxious and miserable.
This is the distorted picture which we see through the lens of low self esteem. The very unhealthy prospect of finding ourselves in an affair, or in some other kind of unavailable relationship, seems exciting. A way out of it, on the contrary, appears painful. It’s like getting high to avoid something where we’re not entirely comfortable with (reality through the lens of a poor self esteem). Then when we get off the drugs it hurts and feels horrible, we want to get back on the drug, we feel empty and dehydrated (which we are because of the affair and our low self-esteem). And only when we’ve been “clean” for some time do we start to reconnect with ourselves and realise that we’re actually in a better place, ready (or soon to be ready) to go out there and make ourselves available for something real with someone available (not EU, married, or attached). A MM or attached guy is essentially an escape from something that may or may not work out, because a MM is something that’s “not supposed to work out” in the first place, so there’s “nothing to lose”, in principle. It may work out if it’s genuine love, but then it simply works out and got don’t get messed about and messed with. But something unavailable shouldn’t be “your option” in the first place.
Hope you’re getting better.
Xxxx
Lucy,
Reading another one of Nat’s post – i think as well as low self esteem there was perhaps inverted narcissism? I definitely have low self esteem- always comparing my self to other women who I consider to be really beautiful. And when MM came along I was always putting myself down in front of him. Not because I wanted compliments from him but because that’s how I saw myself. He said he I was gorgeous and beautiful and he was going to tell me that every time he saw me. And he did. He texted every day and yes that part is like being addicted to a drug – not receiving those texts any more, knowing that he is texting the new woman everyday instead.
I thought that we were getting closer and fooling myself that what we had was special. Hell, he even use to tell me I was special, that he adored me, that he couldn’t wait to see me again, etc. etc.
You say a MM is an escape, but I think I was living in the hope that he would at some stage want to be with me properly. But as you say it would only have happened if there had been love on his part. And he did not love me. I had no confidence in myself but let him in and opened my heart to him. But he was just amusing himself/passing the time time with me.
I think I am getting better, but on Wednesday I saw him with the new woman. Walking down the road acting like colleagues. He saw me and waved.
I don’t think he knows that I know who she was. I had a suspicion. Obviously when they were walking down the road they were not lovey-dovey. But that she is the new woman was confirmed when I saw them holding hands just outside the cafe where they were going for lunch.
MM and I use to go there for coffees and lunch.
Seeing them holding hands made me shake like a leaf. I wanted to throw up.
How can he behave like this???
I think he is a sexual predator. When I told a friend of mine who use to work with me, she told me MM had tried it on with her as well. Before me. He was asking how her husband was – trying to gauge if there were any problems and if so whether he could act like a shoulder to cry on, and then work towards getting her into bed.
I did see MM taking to another woman in his offices, all intent and close, when I went to see him early one morning. He told me she was going through a tough time as her mother was ill and he was just asking how she was coping etc., But really I think he was targeting another vulnerable woman.
I feel like a mug for being fooled by him. May be his is a narcissist? He always has lunches with various different women admin staff in different departments. Is he always looking for an ‘in’ with these women??
He is a total utter bastard. I am feeling angry now. And starting to hate him I think. Seeing them together was the switch. I almost wish I had gone up to them and said something to the new woman – told her that she wasn’t the only one he was f***king. I am having revenge fantasies and feel terrible about it. These thoughts are occupying my head…..may be I need therapy……
Dear Heartbroken,
I’m so sorry to hear that you’re going through such hell ;( Yes, it’s a good idea to see a therapist because it looks like you need to express what you’re feeling, but breaking No Contact would not be a great idea. Feeling angry right now is just fine, and no, you don’t need to feel bad about it, it will pass.
The thing is, you had thought he was a prince, while totally ignoring that he had hooves (but hooves he had!), and then “all of a sudden” he brayed and… What’s THAT??? Adieu rose-tinted romance! Don’t be mad at you, love is blind when it starts from an unhealthy place. You definitely need to believe that you’re beautiful and lovely but not just because men are attracted to you – you’ve got enough of a proof of that – but you need to genuinely like yourself and stop comparing you with other girls. We’re all different, why compare? How is a lily more beautiful than a daisy? If you keep “objectively” (though there’s no such thing) putting yourself always down there, you’ll keep ending up seeing everything from down there and feeling lucky that someone’s paying you attention.
Yes it must be very painful when you see them with another woman, but he doesn’t need at all to know that you miss him “THAT” much. As Natalie says, He’s Just Not That Special! If he’s not an idiot he’ll know that you’re hurting, so his waving you proves once more that he doesn’t have a heart. FLUSH him. Grieve as much as you need, but have compassion of yourself and please place yourself higher in your own eyes. It feels right now that you can’t cope, that it’s too much, but there WILL be a day when you honestly won’t give a damn. You’ll feel liberated and free to start fresh. But first you might need to solve some unsolved issues as I remember you telling that you weren’t over a previous hurt when you started dating MM. So it’s definitely a good idea to share and talk.
A big hug,
xxxxx
Dear Lucy,
Thank you.
I thought I would be able to put him out of my mind over a two week break over Christmas, but sad to say I could not – particularly when trying to sleep.
I am going to stop comparing myself to other girls, as I don’t think it is about looks where MM is concerned. He just targets women he thinks are vulnerable, hoping to get lucky.
‘How is a lily more beautiful than a daisy’ – beautifully put! xx
If someone doesn’t think I’m attractive or beautiful, that’s their problem, I don’t need their approval or attention – that’s what I’m saying to myself now.
I’m afraid that I have not totally stuck to NC. He has been texting me, but I can say that any reply from my side has been short. Working myself up to full NC.
You’re right in that he doesn’t have a heart – he didn’t care about leaving his wife just when she’s been through an op for breast cancer, just when she needed his support.
I think I am over my previous relationship. I don’t think about that any more, and have no feelings with regard to him any more. The one observation I do have from that relationship and MM is that they are both cowards as neither had the guts to tell me to my face that they wanted to break up/were in another relationship. The previous one told me in an email as an ‘oh by the way…’ and MM – well as we have mentioned before, he wanted to have his cake and eat it/overlap until he was sure of the new woman.
I’m still feeling pretty rotten about MM, so in a way glad to be back at work so that I am occupied. Still grieving I guess. I’m not sure which phase I am in the process – the angry phase I think as I am mentally cussing him, lol.
I hope you had a good Christmas?
xxx
Watching my bestie go through the past year of dating one man after another, I have mixed feelings about this article. She sleeps with them far too soon, IMO, like after the first or second date, and gets emotionally attached almost immediately. This means that she then gets fearful and clingy and texts them constantly with LONG analyses of the relationship, her feelings, his feelings, what it all means, etc, before he’s even had a chance to get his pants back on. It chases them away. No, they weren’t the right men for her, but what (sane) man (or woman, for that matter) wants that sort of bombardment so early on, within the first few dates? I keep trying to get this through her head, to wait a bit longer for sex until you’re sure he’s a reasonable bet to try for something longer term, and then for Pete’s sake hold off on the novel-length analysis, but she just can’t get past her own insecurities, and yes, sabotages potential relationships. Sometimes it IS what we do that screws things up. If it’s a repeated pattern it bears doing some work on it.
Hi, Blue Lagoon. About your friend…she will chase everyone away because she is using them for life support, which results in her sucking the life out of them. She has a big hole in her soul, a Grand Canyon of a hole, and she wants to fill it with external validation from a man. Almost any man will do.
So, it’s not a one false move situation with her. She views every man as her “last chance”. Her goal is to win validation from some man, ANY man. She gives too much too soon.
Until she examines why she can’t self-validate, she’s gonna keep hurting herself with empty connections.
Until she examines why she can’t self-validate, she’s gonna keep hurting herself with empty connections. — well said.
This is a lot of why I started getting really into music. I never thought it would really amount to anything, and I still don’t — although the idea of “recording” and “performing” is vaguely exciting.
We really, seriously do need to find something, anything, more interesting and valuable to us than letting men control, “romance,” mashing together private parts, our emotions, etc.
I personally think that it is nearly impossible for a woman to screw and not want to hold on. Whereas, men really chose not to care until they chose to care. That’s just biology, oxytocin, reproductive orientation, ovulation and all of that — it doesn’t favor us.
Get a guitar! Write songs! I’d rather play and sing loud and off key than deal with these types of situations, ever again in life. Really.
Really good advice!
Rules and all the kinds of games are for those who feel INSECURE in a relationship.
There are people who feel/think/believe that if they were acting in a ‘certain way’ or ‘saying certain things’ they would be liked MORE (vs. just being themselves)
For them ‘being themselves’ is a scary thing to do, they are afraid they will never be liked by anyone… unless they stick with some kind of ‘rules’ –
And I agree with Natalie – neither games nor ‘rules’ work!
G’day ladies! Maybe you can all help me out. I have a male best friend who I have known for about 10 years. He and I have always kept it pg-13 (we admit we have feelings for eachother). It’s a situation where one is available, the other isnt. Well he is with someone and has been for sometime now but he has told me flat out lately that he thinks we should get closer. He warned me .. “no falling in love, no chasing the other around.” Honestly I’m flattered because he is a great looking guy, and I am far from perfectly shaped. He’s boosted my self esteem over the years but he’s also hurt me when he disappears , goes all bi polar , and doesn’t have enuff time for me. I know other ladies have seen this before — what kind of rule book do u throw at a guy like this? My guess is he will suddenly text me and want to come by on his terms … a lot is on his terms. So what do I do.. risk it?
He is using you – he wants to have his cake and eat it. All the future-faking is to lure you in. These men use flattery to fool you, especially if you think you are far from perfectly shaped, because they pick on your feelings of low self esteem.
All the warnings about no falling in love and no chasing are very well, but you may develop feelings for him and you will then get hurt. That’s what happened to me – a MM chased me, we started an affair, I developed feelings for him, he started seeing another woman and I found out. He has left his wife but is seeing this other woman. And I am left heart-broken.
If he wants to be close with you, he should get out of his current relationship. Although he sounds like someone that I would not trust. Sorry.
Thank you for your reply! I sat back and read what you said nodding my head. It blows my mind that after soooo many years of knowing him, that he would be like this. It only started 2 years ago, after he had some health issues. He has some anxiety issues and socially he retreats when he is upset. Well now he won’t even text me, the person that has helped him thru so much ! I saw him a few days ago and he future faked — he said I was so pretty and looking amazing (I’ve lost over 40 pounds). He flirted , and I just said thank u and kept it cool. Then he said he would try to stop over that night , as I have some things for him that he wanted. Well that’s the last I have heard from him. I texted him asking if he was going to come over… not a word. Is this part of keeping me in his back pocket ? I figured if he really wanted me for sex which he keeps hinting at, he would have come by . He hasn’t … and honestly I don’t know if I want to deal with him. I feel like my mind is scrambled !!! Any advice on him now ?
Dear Aqua
Sorry, it’s been a while since I’ve been on BR. Going through a crap time with anxiety and panic attacks because of my situation. But any way with regard to your situation, you think that he wants you just for sex, but he hasn’t been in contact. My guess is he is getting plenty elsewhere.
I came across a blog about narcissists. Reading on there I am thinking that the Mm I was involved with is one – all lovebombing and seducing, the devaluation solent treatment and discard because they have some one new, but will ‘hoover’ by contacting you again to see of they can get something from you.
You might want to read up – Google ‘knowing the Narcissist’
In my opinion you are better off forgetting him. easier said than done, I know, because thats what I’m having trouble with. My MM is a lying cheating shit but he has gotten under my skin and he dominates my thoughts and not in a good way.
I do not text him or email or anything anymore and yet I hope for a text from him. But I know that any text would just be perfunctory, like a task rather than any genuine desire on his part to be in touch as he has a new woman. That makes me feel worthless.
Don’t let him make you feel worthless. He is not worthy of you. He doesn’t value you. Be strong and flush him.
Oh p.s he also has started future faking – he wants to take me to a Basketball game and buy our tickets. I think deep down he really does, but ……