“He/she/they made such a good effort at the start.”
“It seemed so promising.”
“I’ve given up so much.”
These are common reasons humans use to justify remaining in a relationship that’s no longer working. Each reason neglects to take something critical into account:
Anything considered to be a contribution is the cost of our getting involved.
The contribution is what’s known in business and decision-making terms as a sunk cost. We’e already incurred the cost, and we can’t undo or recover it. For instance, investing in equipment, research, or advertising. Or, from a decision-making perspective, it’s what we invest before having to make the decision.
Granted we can be wise with our investment by doing our due diligence (as opposed to cost cutting and trying to skate by on the bare minimum). However, whichever way you slice it, relationships, including the ones that never see the light of day because they go bust before they take flight and the ones where it becomes clear that each party wants different things, take investment.
We can’t keep score with an itemised bill of everything we think we’ve been and done that we think obliges us the relationship we want.
Keep in mind, also, that it’s all relative. For instance, what feels like passing a kidney stone for some is something others give and receive freely.
So many of us fall into the trap of doing is conflating the decision to invest with the potential of the relationship when, in truth, they’re unrelated.
Some of us invest blindly, going all-in because we mistake intensity for intimacy.
Some of us invest regardless of code amber and red warnings telling us otherwise because we become fixated on the goal of achieving what we want without caring enough about how we get it and the damage we incur en route or following the achievement.
And some of us invest because we on some level hope that the other party will feel obliged to reciprocate. Of course, we neglect to recognise that directly or inadvertently trying to people-please someone into giving us the relationship we want is shortcode for guilting them.
Really, it’s the difference between coercion and collaboration, feeling victimised or taking responsibility for how you want to feel and continue feeling.
When we are trying to figure out whether to stay or go, that decision must put aside the sunk costs. We’ve already spent the time, energy, emotion and effort. They’re done. We made those contributions at a different time under a different set of circumstances with less knowledge than what we have right now.
To be honest, most people make a good effort at the start of the relationship. Chris Rock calls it “meeting each other’s representatives”. Basically, I don’t recommend hanging your hat on the beginning because relationships and people unfold. The beginning, where it’s honeymoon, is the phase before the relationship started. It’s amazing what people will come across as when they want to get into our pants, are running from their ex, have overestimated their interest or capacity to commit, or they’re quite simply high on newness and possibilities.
If the subsequent actions and values are at odds with that promise, we have a duty of care to ourselves and the relationship to get into reality so that we can come from a place of acceptance and decide to stay or go authentically. The whole idea of moving from being strangers with someone to being in a relationship is because we see promise but want to find out if that’s legit. Our vision of the potential isn’t a contract written in blood.
If a decision comes down to feeling as if we’ve given up a great deal [for the relationship], this is where we have to be particularly careful. Our justifiying sacrifices that maybe at one time we billed as ‘acts of giving’ we were willing to make because we thought things were going a certain way, keeps us in something long past its sell-by date.
We have to be honest about what we feel we’ve ‘given up’. If our sacrifices are the things that matter like our dignity, integrity, reality, family, friends, etc., we need to halt. If we’re not, more pain lies ahead if we keep waiting to be paid back.
It doesn’t make sense for us to stay in a relationship where what we feel was good about it is in the past. We’ll only make ourselves feel bad by staying. We’re holding ourselves hostage to a situation on the basis that the other party, if we’re pleasing enough, will feel sufficiently inspired to feel and behave in a way that credits us for the previous, time, energy, effort and emotions ‘spent’.
That’s our [hidden] agenda, not a joint agenda.
Sure, we have memories, good times and the like. However, if we’re at the point where we’re having an internal battle about whether to stay or go, we need to pay attention to what is and the net content of our relationship. What we can’t do is make a decision based on fear of not getting ROI on a previous decision. If we do, we run the major risk of doing things for the wrong reasons. We might stay with Bob because we’re trying to make up for the Tom decisions and so on and so on.
Park the past decisions and look at the fresh decision. When you consider how things have been and who each of you are in the relationship now, how does that affect your decision? When you accept reality, is it at odds with the reasons why you invested?
Truly loving, healthy relationships will always have logical reasons based on what is. Don’t block your own happiness and extend your pain out of an irrational desire to recoup what was.
Your thoughts?
Add to favorites 
Natalie, as always thank you so much for this great insight. It’s been a few weeks since I last wrote on here seeking advise from the amazing women on here and I believe they were all so helpful. However, I wanted to give an update to hopefully get a second opinion for how I have been feeling lately.
To make a long story short. This situation is about me and a guy i’ve been dating about 4 months now (it’ll be 4 months in 9 days). I met him about 9 months ago but I blew him off then decided to give him a chance 4 months ago. I think things between us moved rather quickly. We met and started spending A TON of time together. About 2 and a half months into it, we met one another kids and it made seeing each other that much easier because before, when I had my daughter which is typically 90% of the time, I couldn’t see him.
Eventually, he was practically over my house almost every other day, spending the night and when he has his child, the child spent the night as well and the child plays with my child. We all seem to get along well. Idk if he’s here so much because he had to move back in with his mom since he broke up with his ex about 4 months before we reconnected. I’ve invited him out to functions so he’s met most of my friends, met my siblings and posting him on social media sorta kinda let everyone else know I had someone in my world. About a month ago, we had a rough patch because I found myself doing his laundry and constantly cooking and cleaning for him and initiating dates etc. I decided to put a halt on all that because I was playing house with a man that hadn’t made things official with me yet. He respected that and will now take initiative to cook for himself or help me in the kitchen.
Physical intimacy is present but not so much and it only happens when and if I want it to and I know better than to equate it with love or emotional intimacy. However, now we are nearing the holidays and we might not be spending it together because I honestly don’t know how i’m going to introduce him to my old fashioned parents as a “friend” even though i’m all over the place with him plus he’s also not comfortable with the idea. He claims he isn’t ready for a relationship because he takes them very seriously (almost like marriage) and for that reason, he feels like we have some things between us we need to workout before we take on that next step because a relationship won’t change that.
This baggage probably has a lot to do with the complaints i’ve had with him lately. I talked to him about my concerns with the lack of physical intimacy we have. We could spend a week together in the same house, go to work, come home and never kiss and I find that strange even during sex. (He’s excuse – he’s tired of coming home and finding me with sweatpants, a scarf on my head and a t-shirt as he is a visual person and I need to start dressing in ways that would attract him to me) I also talked to him about his lack of taking initiative to take me out and actually plan it without me having to do so all the time. (claims he’s never been that guy and as long as he participates and pays, what’s the big deal) He also has a tendency to commit to doing things then changing his mind later which is annoying. For example, I came up with a question game the other night and I asked him if we could play it, he agrees, I told him I knew we wouldn’t because he always goes to bed after his show but he insisted we would. Later he finds me getting the game ready and said he didn’t wanna play anymore that he was tired and that turned into a big fight. I don’t know how I feel about the fact I haven’t met any of his friends or family or the fact he has a passcode to get into his phone and won’t let me know what it is. He also has a habit of demanding a lot from me indirectly and/or expecting a lot from me. I don’t know but i’ve cried myself to sleep maybe 2-3 times since my involvement with him because i’m not necessarily happy.
We never had a honeymoon stage. Never felt butterflies for this man because he’s never swept me off my feet…never done anything special for me. I’ve taken him out on romantic dates, even done the whole cooking dinner and setting my house up with rose pedals, candles and wine everywhere…etc. Feel like I was doing these things to set an example. I have my ways about me to and I know i’m not easy to deal with. I tend to walk away and sleep on the couch when we have disagreements because I feel like talking about it is pointless. Everything just feels so dry and there doesn’t seem to be passion.
Though he’s like my best friend. He listens, he makes me laugh, he’s always here, he’s supportive and great with my child and he’s honest. I’ve been in a TON of EU relationships and he doesn’t give me any signs that this is what it could be. I know he’s available for a relationship but how much longer should I wait for this title? I feel like the holidays are only going to make this worse because this is when it matters the most. If we are growing, I should be in a good enough space to include him in my festivities with my families..not hide him 🙁 I don’t think a relationship is going to fix our issues, but I think the lack of and/or block of emotional investment is what’s causing all these issues. The uncertainty is killing me. Like will he ever commit? What is the hold up? None of the things he refers to as ‘baggage’ are relationship deal breakers in my opinion. It all boils down to choice. He can choose to be affectionate, he can choose to be more invested, he can choose to be passionate and all that etc.
I mean, why can’t we work through these issues IN A RELATIONSHIP? Why can’t I ever get the title? Why do all the men I attract what to half-ass everything. How is it that we are spend almost everyday together, travel together, spend time with the kids, talk all the time, shop for house needs together, sleep together yet when it comes to a commitment there seems to be a block. Am I overthinking this? How much longer should I wait 🙁
Cycles, so sorry, but this man will be leaving you as soon as a better a situation presents itself. He is not invested in this situation. You’ve laid out the Relationship Red Carpet and are sitting there like a puppy wagging her tail waiting for him to say “OK, we are in a relationship.”
He accepts sex when you offer because he can later claim that sex was always your idea, he never asked for it. So as he is walking out your door for good, he will make it clear that he never asked you to give the things you so willingly gave.
I am giving up hope that we women will ever start thinking clearly about what a man is offering. I have come to the conclusion that the talent to see people as they really are is something one is born with, because after doing all this reading here, I see people repeating the same mistakes. Either you have the ability to accept reality or you don’t.
Cycles, you are betting on an imagined potential. I say imagined because from what you write it is hard to see what potential this guy has for joining together with you in an intimate emotionally available relationship based on mutual care, trust, respect and love. You are not heeding the signs. You are in the justifying zone. You justify your investment when you write “…he’s like my best friend. He listens, he makes me laugh, he’s always here, he’s supportive and great with my child and he’s honest..”. Elgie’s raised these questions elsewhere on the blog – how exactly is he ‘supportive’ of you or even your ‘best friend’? This guy is not emotionally available with you. He is recently out of a long term relationship where I am assuming he had to move in with mum because he was living in his exe’s house. And now he is on repeat with you – basically living at your place. If you could believe you are a woman of worth and value and act on that you would not put up with what he is doing and how he is behaving. This is not a mutual. co-piloted relationship (with or without a ‘title’).
‘I have come to the conclusion that the talent to see people as they really are is something one is born with’
I agree, partly ’cause it’s something I’ve always had – an innate ability. I can just see through people’s masks and read between the lines; I was always able to do it even as a child. I think it’s something to do with having introverted intuition as my dominant cognitive function – I’m a Myers Briggs INFJ – other IN**s have got the same talent. 😉
I can understand the statement and the potential frustration around it. My understanding is that we all have different experiences that alter our perceptions as well as our ability to trust our perceptions. If someone very important to you (caregiver, etc..) has told you or shown you repeatedly that your reality is wrong and not to trust it, eventually you believe them. And/or, if your reality is too scary to face, you go with the fantasy until you are strong enough, safe enough – ready – to face reality.
At least that has been my experience. I have been in denial about lots of things, but with hard work I’ve been able to work through it and face some disturbing realities. Realities that my younger self was just not equipped to deal with (face).
I’m a INFJ too.
I agree.im INFJ as well.
I think you should break up with him, move on, and kick him out of your place. You don’t have the excuse of worrying about him ending up homeless since he’s presumably got a free place to stay under his parent’s roof as well as three home-cooked meals a day waiting for him there. I don’t think the title is the real issue here. The question is, why are you willing to put up with such a sub-par arrangement? He’s using you as his personal cooking, laundry, cleaning, child-care service (even though he’s stepped up minimally since you laid down the law for him). He also gets a free place to stay, including taking over your bed. I have to ask, why are you the one sleeping on the couch if it’s your place? I think he also has controlling tendencies since he’s demanding that you change your style/dressing habits to something that is more appealing to him (while whittling away at your self-esteem at the same time). A real friend would not treat you this way. Please break up with him, Cycles, but do keep us updated on your progress. I know I don’t know you other than in this setting, but I want what’s best for you and this overgrown man-child isn’t it.
Hey Cycles,
With the utmost respect, you need to drop him – pronto! You’re already struggling to see the wood for the trees and questioning yourself, which is a warning sign in itself. Don’t sit there taking his crumbs any longer, defend your boundaries and give him two options – he’s either in or out, but he can’t have both ways. Back off and let him pursue you now (if he can indeed be bothered).
Remember I told you a couple weeks ago that I had to tighten my boundaries with a guy I have been dating for 3 months? Well, this weekend I finally had enough of hearing his never ending excuses as to why he no longer initiates dates or makes an effort to spend time with me. He had promised to take me out on 2-3 separate occasions in the last month, but he always manages to find a convenient excuse as to why he couldn’t come through on our arrangements.
Long story short: he’s always cash-strapped, time poor and he lost his only remaining job last week. He’s now waiting on some mega payout for a compensation claim he submitted for fracturing his spine at work about a year ago. He also informed me last week that he’s flying to Ghana today for a family funeral and will be there for 3 weeks. When I asked him how he managed to fund flights etc (he’s been pleading poverty for the longest time), he informs me that he has friends who have loaned him the money for him and his Mama’s tickets. I found it ironic that he could borrow £1.5k from his friends with ease, but couldn’t borrow £20-30 to take me out for a meal (yes, I know I’m a cheap date, but I was trying to be sympathetic of his ongoing money struggles).
After much too-ing and and fro-ing, he still couldn’t understand why I have taken issue with his lack of effort over the last 2 months. Every reason I gave for why I felt aggrieved was countered with statements like “it’s not my fault my uncle died and I have to go away…”, or, “I will take you out when I get back, it’s not a big deal…” or, “This is my current situation, take it or leave it…” and my personal fave, “I don’t understand why you’re so mad, it’s just a mere date.”
His general attitude towards me (I’m clearly not a priority to him, and I’m optional), his unwillingness to listen and adapt, his inability to take responsibility for his actions (he just expects me to be automatically understanding / tolerant of his chaotic life /financial difficulties), the blase way he manages to write-off any plans we’ve made (usually last minute) and the way he trivialises my feelings (i.e. it’s just “a mere date”), was all that I needed to see that this situation isn’t working for me. The sweet words and promises that never materialise were getting boring, and I was stressed, frustrated and feeling like my time is/was being wasted.
I grew weary of having to initiate/fund dates in order for us to do something together. I can see that I fell into the trap of investing much more into this situationship then he did, but I wasn’t getting any ROI either. Just a shitload of hot air and broken promises. I’m gutted, as I didn’t see this one crashing and burning as fast as it has (and a part of me felt excited about having a man at Xmas for the first time in ages), but I’m not happy with being shunted to the back of his list all the time. I’m not happy with the lack of effort, interest, consistency – there’s just no reason for me to hold on to him anymore.
So I will take the rest of the year to focus on ME and complete some goals I have set for myself. I will attend as many Christmas parties as I can, get glammed up with my girls and flirt outrageously with whoever I want (no desire to date for a while now). It sucks that another one bites the dust, but this isn’t my first time feeling short-changed, unappreciated, optional etc. I’ll be fine, I always am in the end.
You will be too Cycles. 🙂
Rachel,
Your story reminds me of a situation I was in years ago. My hunch is that this guy is also telling you lies…perhaps about this trip and who paid for it. I’m guessing he presents this as a temporary situation, but there will be one excuse after another as to why he doesn’t have the time or money, and why you should pay for everything.
You seem to be trying to reason with him about his behaviour – unfortunately this doesn’t work. We shouldn’t have to try to explain basic courtesy to someone – someone is either a considerate, thoughtful person of integrity or they aren’t. I realized at one point that being confused by someone’s treatment and trying to reason with them was something familiar to me. Perhaps it is for you as well.
Keep in mind that someone presents their best self in the beginning. How worrisome is it if this is the best behaviour you will ever see from this guy?
Hey AD,
I mentioned the same thing to Cycles recently about why we shouldn’t have to explain or negotiate T&Cs for being treated right. I have found myself doing this repeatedly over the years, but this time, I’m tired of hearing my own voice harp on about the same crap. His behaviour is beyond trifling – one minute being apologetic and agreeing that he needs to do better, then the next minute complaining that I’m the selfish one for expecting him to do the basic things, (i.e. take me on a date) especially when he is struggling. Sigh. It’s beyond frustrating.
As far as his money/working situation goes, that’s entirely his business not mine. I just can’t understand why any guy who knows they have so little to offer (and need to get their shit together), still insist on trying to date, or hold down a relationship? I gave him the benefit of the doubt as things did start off really well, but if this is a glimpse of things to come in the future, then I know he’s not right for me. I don’t want someone I have to nag and coax into being a man. Step up or step out.
I’ve been NC for over 48 hours now, and I got a deluge of “I miss you” and “please call me” texts at 2-3am this morning, but I have no desire to reply or converse with him any more. We’ve tried talking for 2 months now, he promises to do better, then reverts back to type. So I’m done with talking. He’s just an immature, selfish, entitled, emotional retard – who expects to be treated like a king without having earned the privilege. Fool me once, as the saying goes.
I’m happy with my decision to end things before they get any messier. And when he returns from Ghana, I expect he’ll try to contact me again, but I’m not interested. I don’t hate him, but I do resent him for wasting my precious time.
Cycles, please listen and take note when he tells you he doesn’t want to be in a relationship. It means he doesn’t want to be in a relationship. You are, at best, in a friends with benefits relationship. You are giving him all the benefits, still. You two can go a week and not kiss, even during sex??? He is showing you he is not in a relationship with you! He is taking advantage of you.
If he doesn’t want to commit to a relationship and you are not happy with the situation as it is then perhaps think about dialling it right back to friends only. No more overnights, no more sex.
Or,
Take heed of what Nat says in this post. You made an investment and it hasn’t paid off. What’s more, it’s looking very much like it’s never going to. Could it be time to cut your losses, before you sink even more of you into this? x
Cycles,
I can very much relate to you and what you’re feeling. But what seems to be happening here is you know the answer deep down. You already know the outcome of what will happen based on the facts of how this man has treated you. But you are waiting on someone else to tell you what to do. You’ve received great advice from everyone here. I read your first comment from a while back but didn’t post then. I had to chime in now.
The longer you stay in this “relationship” where your needs are not being met and he is blatantly showing you with his actions that he won’t, you are allowing yourself to undergo more damage to your self-esteem. Take it from me, there has not been one relationship I’ve been in where I left when I KNOW I should have. I never trusted my gut. I’m lucky enough to be with someone AMAZING now, but I’m having a monster of a time letting myself love him, when he unconditionally loves me. It feels awful knowing that I allowed all this hurt and damage in my life, and it is affecting my relationship with an amazing man who DOES do every single things I’ve dreamed for. There ARE men out there who will plan dates, initiate intimacy, surprise you with gifts, spoil you, seek to create communication. I know, because I have that now. BUT, it is so hard to let him love me and let me be vulnerable towards him because I’m just waiting for red flags, bad behavior, for him to leave me, etc. It takes a LOT of hard work to rewrite the code inside your head after being screwed over for so long.
Take this opportunity to really get inside your head. You don’t trust yourself or your gut instinct to let him go. Why is that? Are you afraid of abandonment? Are you afraid of being alone? Why are you staying in a situation that is not allowing YOU to love you? If you truly did love you, you wouldn’t be putting up with his bullshit, because that’s exactly what it is.
If, and I hope you do, I think everyone here is, you do leave him, it will probably be hard. But you’re saving yourself from so much more pain. This relationship is like a house that has so many issues beneath it’s walls, that some signs have sprung up that are visible inside and maybe outside. Would you ever want to buy or invest in a house that wasn’t safe for you and your family? These problems usually turn out to be thousands of dollars because you have to go back and redo what the builder or previous owner didn’t have the integrity to fix or do right in the first place. Start thinking of the “home “you want for you and your kids. Safe, reliable, no faulty foundation issues, no leaks, I think you get my point.
You deserve better Cycles. Be strong, I know you can. You may surprise yourself too. It is empowering to know YOU choose what and who stays in your life. Give this guy the heave-ho and work on loving and trusting you. Show yourself compassion. Show yourself love. Show yourself respect. And, it could be a great lesson for your kid(s) one day. They deserve a great example of true love too. Remember, we learned a LOT from our parents.
With love.
Willow
Cycles
There is no relationship here, you are being used. Do not merely reject but throw this man away. Read carefully what you’ve written here, your sadness and frustration. In future encounters with men, if you feel you need to do most of the work to keep him, if life with him is more work than life without him, leave.
If theres never been a honeymoon stage, he’s got zero interest in initiating sex and its only been four months,its time to move on. That isnt a relationship, its called convenience. Convient for him because he allows you to look after him and his interests. You, in turn, have someone around rather than be alone. This will end badly and Id bet the farm, you’ve been alone for an extended period of time. Should you continue to exist in this mock relationship, you very well will miss out on someone else who will appreciate how utterly fabulous you are. Sex with that person will be epic and often. Go now, eject his putz and start living your life. No one ever said they wished they’d wasted more of their life. Best wishes.
He openly said he was not ready for a relationship. As a result he is acting like he is not ready for a relationship and he is just a time sponge using you for what you offer. Let him go.
Cycles,
I can really understand that you don’t like what you Know by now about this man you are dating. You are on the verge of losing yourself in a cycle of accepting unacceptable behavior (or trying to tolerate it), you are taking certain ‘good behaviors’ and rationalizing how he is worth it and then when he is not coming through, adjusting your behavior and thinking it’s you when you two are UTTERLY incompatible because you want very different things out of this connection. Like Elgie wrote- you need to accept reality which includes accepting wholly and fully what you know by now. Don’t get side tracked by his good points (that we all have…) when – all that matters is-you DONT feel good with him on a very basic level. It doesn’t sound as if he cares about you that much. I’m sorry. It’s not easy and you got really good insights and help a couple weeks ago here. Reread those posts. Take it to heart. Just because you don’t like the reality doesn’t mean you can avoid it. It will only bring more pain! This guy is major EU and has some code red behaviors. He could become verbally abusive. Please take good care of yourself!! Hugs
Cycles….is this 1946 or 2016? I thought the days of dressing up to please our man when he walks through the door were relegated to history. Does he walk through the door dressed to vye for your eyes in a tux and brylcreamed hair? Doesn’t sound like he’s doing good anything to spur you on in any way. It’s one sided and he is selfish but also he doesn’t want to invest, entice or be enticed with you….you’re simply there being a prop in his life. You could dress up like like cave woman Raquel Welsh and he won’t value you on any level any more than now. You know this. Deep down you know to take off the kitten heels and strap on the nikes and get running in any direction away from him. You deserve better…and a guy who loves and values you won’t care if you’re in sweats or stockings, he will be turned on by you, your soul and your shit hot awesomeness. Please put this down to experience and don’t let fools make fools of you and be around your children. The writing really is on his walls he has built up against you. Please heed the message and find you then someone else….be done with wrecking ball mentality towards getting guys to be with us. A guy with his shit together will simply open the door for you into his life and heart. But only if we have our self love and respect for ourselves and them. And that often comes when we are truly happy to walk our path alone than settle for anything that devalues us.
This is just another road marker on your journey towards it.
Wow !! I’ve just realised I lay out the relationship red carpet ….
Oh I did too! I put down beautiful, plush red carpet for him to track his muddy shoes all over. I made it so easy for him to waltz in and enjoy everything I freely offered. He was so incredibly charming. I was with him for almost 3 years, lived together for 2, on NC for 3 months. It was brutal how he destroyed my self worth slowly over time, I allowed him to talk to me with a disgusting tone and harsh words, he was just “being honest”. He withheld warmth, kindness, affection regularly and that became long stretches if I didn’t behave. He would willfully be non-responsive when I was trying to talk and connect with him. The silent treatments turned me into a basketcase. But the good times the first few months were out of this world, I’d never experienced such amazing love, attention and potential.
That all said, I saw hints of red flags but ignored them for various reasons, like fear, overreacting, didn’t want to ruin it, it will get better, etc. And I learned a valuable lesson: IT DOES NOT GET BETTER. It gets worse and erodes your sense of self. I spent hours and hours thinking and trying and jumping through hoops for him to WAKE UP AND GET IT. It doesn’t happen. He is who he is. Trying to change a man is futile, even if you think the changes would make him wonderful.
Cycles, please stop making efforts. He has demonstrated that he doesn’t give a shit how you feel. (I’m sorry) If you’re not ready to kick him to the curb, at least out of your living space. He can live with mom. He’s using you so he doesn’t have to live with his parents, which is embarrassing to a man. Then you’ll see his ‘commitment’ to you when you’re not taking care of him and rolling out the red carpet. Sex isn’t love. I found that out too from having the best sex of my life with that guy, well before he took that away from me as well. I used to think good sex went along with a good relationship. Ah nope. If he knew you were crying out on the couch and did nothing but snore comfortably in bed, it’s over. Yep been there too.
Just know that IT WILL NOT IMPROVE, HE WILL NOT CHANGE, HE DOESNT HAVE A PROBLEM IN HIS MIND. I wish I had found this site long before I finally mustered up the little bit of my humiliated self to leave. Maybe I wouldn’t be so broken now, but I’m on the path to healing, and it does hurt, but I have peace of mind.
Hugs to you and pray for your strength!
“..he claims he isn’t ready for a relationship.” As I said the last time, change “claims” to “states,” “declares” “does not want.” That’s reality.
YOUR wants and needs are not his. Nothing has changed from a few weeks ago including my response to your situation. He has stated a Boundary called “NO.”
Males as well as females are required to set Boundaries that define who they are, what they value, their morals, ethics etc. A Boundary is a concrete rebar reinforced blast wall of NO.
No matter how you continue to explain, rationalize, discuss your angst over “How do I *make* him feel the same way towards me I do towards him” the answer is the same: Ya don’t. Sure, you can nag, manipulate, sulk, cry, demand etc. and all’s that’s gonna do is make him even more distant. You’re already experiencing that: Pulling the couch retreat tactic didn’t result in him running post haste out of the bedroom begging you to “please, please come back, I’m so sorry” etc. He just rolled over into the middle of the bed and continued snoring.
He’s just not that in to you. If that’s the definition of an EU, then so be it. I call it hypocrisy when it’s OK for women to set Boundaries and hey, you go girl! but when someone else does it, they’re “Emotionally Unavailable.”
And you keep attracting men “like that” because YOU keep fishing with stink bait so all’s you’re gonna get is bottom feeders. You’re the constant in “attracting men like that” and your attraction to anyone who pays attention to you is the equivelant to water on parched earth. The parched earth you doesn’t care if it’s an animal wandering by and performing it’s bodily functions; at least it’s liquid.
TW
TW, Is the ‘stink bait’ the trying to be pleasing, nagging, etc..?
I recently had to let go of a relationship that I invested 4 1/2 years into, and let me tell you, it was HARD. Looking back, I can see that I spent so much time betting on potential, and ruminating about all my investments. We had a house that we just bought together, a dog, I moved across state lines for him, took a job I hated. I built my life around him, meanwhile, he kept playing games, and had his female friends constantly disrespecting me.
I thought I couldn’t make it on my own, and I spent close to a month threatening to leave, hoping it would give him the motivation to make some changes to keep us together, but he didn’t care. He watched me walk away, and changed the locks on the house we own together as soon as I moved out. I suspect he’s even moved someone else in.
Now really all I feel is anger. Like, how could I have been so stupid? Its like a fog has been lifted, and I realize I mostly have myself to blame. He showed me signs very early on that he wasn’t going to commit to me, but I fell for the words even though they rarely lined up with his actions. Someday I would like to have a family, I’m in my early 30’s. But honestly, I’m so tired of the games/b.s. I don’t know if I’m cut out for weeding through the AC’s to find someone who won’t bust my boundaries. So, I adopted a dog! Me and my little fella, we are alright on our own for now.
Hi, OTD –
I feel/have felt the same way. I’m just only now reading Mr. Unavailable, but my last two relationships left me disenchanted and angry with both myself for being such a pushover and my exes for treating me with such disrespect. Anger, anger, anger. It’s hard to get over. I try to tell myself that at LEAST I had the presence of mind to end these relationships, and that I can only learn from them. I also adopted a dog after the first unavailable man, and I will say that it has helped me to end my relationship with the last one, because even if I don’t have a boyfriend, I always have my dog, who provides me companionship and comfort on the darkest of days. Love to you.
OTD,
Be proud of you for moving out of the situation. You had had enough of his drama and gaslighting. Now you have peace of mind. Yes it still hurts, but your anger will pull you through. You did something extremely difficult and brave. He’s an a-hole and doesn’t care. He’ll be the same to the next girl and the next one after that.
I haven’t slept a wink last night and I am so hurt and disappointed right now. I am currently in the midst of getting a divorce from a great guy who I have had no real connection or chemistry with (after being together for 9 years). I have on several occasions thought of leaving him but kept the status quo (since I wasn’t unhappy although I wasn’t happy). In August I ended up kissing a guy at work (he had been flirting with me for a few months and I think part of it was me sub-consciously needing a catalyst to do something about my marriage). The guy reported into my team. In all my years of being single in my 20s, I have never engaged with anyone at work even though options existed. This is a huge anomaly for me. It started with a lot of conversations on work trips and I know it was a conscious decision on my part to take it to that level. We didn’t end up sleeping together that night and I instead packed myself home and the very next day started talking to my husband about figuring out our marriage and told him.
However, I felt like the guy had awakened a very emotional need in me and I kept talking to him. When my husband and I went into couples therapy I told the guy at work that I needed some time to think and we should place everything on the back burner. He agreed. However, we still ended up going out a few more times and kissing. Most of our “talking” has been on text, sometimes 200 texts a day. I have an active social life, friends, professional events but I would still ensure that if I got a text he immediately got a response. I almost felt addicted to this emotional “connection”. After the first month and half, he started to blow hot and cold, and I called him on it as well as the fact that most of our interactions were on text. He said since we see each other at work and interact he didn’t think that there was anything wrong with just texting. I continued working with my therapist and marriage counsellor however I knew that irrespective my marriage was over.
Several times I would try to just ignore him at work after calling him out and he would want to talk about it. He told me he wanted to pursue this in spite of the fact that it would mean we can’t work together. I specifically asked him, are you sure? and his response was Yes. Since finding out about me moving toward a divorce, he hasn’t really initiated getting together and when I questioned him about it, he stated its becuase he is worried that I am an “all” or “nothing” girl. I believe he feels that becuase I have called him out on his behavior several times already and maybe I come across as needy coz of that? Our last conversation I was fairly blunt and asked him listen tell me honestly if you like me or not, and he said I do, but I am worried that I am not ready for a relationship. I let him know that I will not go into anything casual, mainly becuase its important to me that two people are exploring a relationship with a 100% and if one person wants their options open it will just result in something unhealthy. And he said that’s not what he wants right now.
So I told him I don’t believe we can be colleagues and I have a hard time seeing him every day with the sexual tension and attraction, either way whether we pursue it or not, we can’t work together.
Yesterday was the first day where I have tried no contact at work which is very tough since he is in my team. He was freezing me out as well and I am so worried about how its impacting my productivity at work. And on top of that I am feeling so many feelings of rejection and hurt. I couldn’t sleep a wink last night and I know if he wasn’t at work this would be way easier to move on from. I feel like i should reach out and have another conversation with him but dont want to because the primary driver would be to try to get him to pursue it and I want my dignity and self esteem to stay intact. I have already let him know that i was interested and I refuse to do it again.
Get over your divorce and learn how to be on your own first, instead of dragging someone else into your mess.
He might be acting “weird”, but your behaviour and confusion (which he hasn’t caused) isn’t fair on him either.
Stop the games and the coercion to “make” him do anything – take a breath, girl!
I dont understand. Why hasn’t he caused my confusion? he pursued this, blew hot and cold, did the whole text messaging, etc…
I agree on the coercion and games piece. I do not want to play games and prefer to really leave it behind. the issue is seeing him everyday has been super super hard.
I was reading another blog on here and realized that I am so hoping that he will get in touch with me and in some way i would get the validation that there was indeed something special between us. 🙁 i feel pathetic right not 🙁
There WAS something special, the 200 texts showed that. But the guy for whatever reason only wanted you when you were not available. Now that you are free, it is no challenge or excitement for him. Because if he really cared, he would be saying, “wow, now I can have her all to myself legitimately!” Instead he is ghosting.
He did want you in the early days, but now he has to step up as a man/boyfriend/lover for real and it scares him. Now it is for real, it is not at this safe distance. He now actually has to take you for his own, and protect you from the dragons. He is on the porch, dangling is shoes off the edge thinking, “I don’t want to slay dragons for her or anyone right now, I just want to watch sports on TV.” He is realizing you want the whole thing, commitment, time, effort, emotions, he is not for all of that energy. He just wanted a bit of safe distant fun. It was distant, even though it was that you saw him at work. The text is too bad, but it is a distant thing, as a call is always better.
It is hard to find jobs these days, so don’t quit yet. You have to somehow stop wanting that attention from him. Think of it this way: You are out in the desert and get a snake bite. He has the antibody to save your life, and he is not giving it to you. Don’t analyze WHY, who gives a rat’s why. HE WON’T GIVE IT TO YOU. That’s all you need to know. When you think of him, take him off that high pedestal, and realize he is a guy who won’t give you want you want or need. He is not that guy. He just isn’t, you need to keep telling yourself that. You would give it to you, you would give it to HIM, but he is not giving it to you.
Drink the dose of your own reality and you will get over him. I did that. I kept imagining, wow, this guy won’t give me what I hinted I wanted, and carefully told him I needed, he can’t or won’t give it to me. Soon, it stopped mattering why — I just kept repeating, he won’t give it to me. He could, he won’t, he knows what it is, he won’t. One day I realized I hadn’t thought of him the whole day. Another week or two later I realized, I no longer cared about him. Much later I realized, I had not thought of him lovingly at all anymore. It does take time. But you can do it. Cut the ties to this guy having your heart. If you needed heart medicine to live — he wouldn’t give it to you, because that is what they are doing when they say, after you give them all your love you possess “oh, I don’t want a relationship right now”…..
Yes, quitting is not an option because jobs are definitely fewer at my level. The worst part is that he reports into my team – so I struggle with trying to be fair and generous and “letting him off the hook” and then cycle back to being the person who really does’t want to talk to him. We have had a few “relationship” conversations and even though this was definitely not a relationship and has always been a”watchamacallit” ambiguous thing.
I feel terrible also because I did pour my heart out to him in my last whatsapps and his response was a one liner. “Wow, that was a lot to read”. I didnt’ respond and realized that I need to disengage. I just dont know how to do it becuase I have tried the banter, friendly route two weeks back and I felt like it backfired since I still had expectations. and then he was out of the office last week for two days and I had great days (so essentially we have been NC for 5 days actually). With him back yesterday I didn’t know how to behave after the whatsapp so I just ignored him for most of the day when we passed in the hallway and then in meetings only spoke to him when I had to. Felt rude and mean and petty. I wish i could just be natural/normal. We have a social event tomorrow for my team and he declined and I am sure he will bow out of social situations coz this must be hard for him as well since he reports to me. 🙁 I really wish he would just decide to leave the job.
You have to take the high road now. Stop writing long texts to him and stop trying to validate anything with him. Let it be over, let it die, let it die, watch it die, let it wither and die. If all’s he can say is “wow, that is a lot to read,” not “Oh, never knew you felt like that it made me feel…” or “I think we should have a heart to heart.” He is basically telling you he is laughing at you, I am sorry if that is harsh. He did not react to your long text as it did not matter to him. How can I make you see this? I am so sorry, you deserve better, but he might be slightly enjoying your pain. He is not empathizing with you, which is a lousy sign that he does not care a bit about your pain. He is using your pain as a step ladder to step over you and get over you. You have to use him right back and step over him and be as professional as possible on the job. But you have to fill up your evenings doing some other thing, so you won’t think on him and what was every hour.
You can do this. You can get over him. He did not appreciate a beautiful spirited woman, so he deserves to lose you. Let him go, I know it is so hard, but you have to, he will only hurt you now, he has nothing to lose.
Tango,
He reports to you at work?
Let it go. If this got out or he talked to someone about it, you’re job or reputation could be on the line.
You two had a little fun, he doesn’t want it, you have a divorce to deal with. Send big texts to a friend, not him.
Stop thinking about him, pretend he is just a coworker. When you’re in a meeting and you need to talk to him, just stare at his forehead, act like he’s just another employee. Not cold or awkward, just regular. Same goes if you see him in the hallway. Say a polite hello first and look at his forehead. Rise above and take the high road. Then he will feel more comfortable and things can go forward professionally.
If you start thinking about him at work, stop and think about your career and paycheck. No one likes sticky things in a workplace, especially management.
You’re a smart lady. Don’t let this little thing mess up your job. Your job will be key for your sanity when you divorce.
What about the fact you are married?
Stop playing the victim.
You are just as much at fault as he.
All you girls bag this guy. very one sided. I bet your views would be decidedly different if everything was reversed here. Ie: a married guy seeking out another woman at work etc.
How about some objective thinking here.
Hareeba,
I am the second part of the equation, no doubt. but I didn’t pursue him – he did and he was actively pursuing and flirting. He also did very reel in type of stories (that now I look back and see were the kind that he probably tells every woman to reel her in). How his father died when he was young and he found him, etc… we traveled together and he would be just layering on the flattery, flirting. I even called him on the flirting and told him I don’t want an HR disaster and during a work trip ended up going back up to my room.
At the end of it – am I equally responsible? yes. Did I pursue him initially? No.
I can sympathise. They pursue you, flirt, pile on the compliments and make you feel special, like you mean something to them, reeling you in.
And yes definitely they say same to every women to get them. Sadly, they are practised and know what works to ensnare us.
Hi, Tango. These feelings you have are the normal pains experienced when a work romance goes south and you still have to interact with that coworker. It’s awkward. It’s emotionally painful. You have to constantly be in your own head, telling yourself to stop thinking about the way it was.
I know from experience that it is a lot easier to heal and move past a heartbreak when you don’t have to see or hear the other person. That’s why those days he was gone were your best office days lately.
I do not feel he is callously trying to hurt you. I don’t think he is enjoying your pain. I think he may be of the ilk of “She knew this was for fun. WHY did she get so serious? Man, how do I get out of this thing gracefully?” So his noncommittal –unreadable-inscrutable response of “that was a lot to read” was a brilliant way to reply but not get involved. He wants to save his job too.
I think you are already realizing you used this dalliance as your ticket out of an unhappy marriage. For some reason, you needed this to help you make other important changes. But no need to hold on to it like it is your lifeline…it was just a place for you to get started making changes.
Thanks all for the comments and support. 12 days no/low contact at work. Thanksgiving was a hard holiday with 4 days of too much thinking time, dealing with soon to be ex-family, and wondering how hard its going to be next year. I agree on taking the time after the divorce to truly figure myself out and help stabilize the toddlers.
I wasn’t planning on starting to date but this situation was a catalyst to figuring out the marriage and I wanted to pursue it further to see where it went. When asked he said he wanted to pursue it further as well, even though it meant that we wouldn’t’ work together again. Looking back I realize I am lucky to have questioned the red flags and only invested a few months in it. He has all the signs of being an EUM (at least more than half of the ones that Natalie mentions). Yes, he does report into my organization and I hope he has the good sense to start looking for a job since it does impact us working together if I keep up the no or low contact. There are many lessons learnt here. Comments that he made of “I am worried about hurting you”, “would you really want to date a guy like me” (putting me on a pedestal), “I have issues” etc… are all things I will never allow again (whenever I am ready to date). The sad thing is that it makes me feel that will I ever have a similar connection with someone who isn’t EUM. Interacting at work today, being in meetings, I know hurts us both, specially considering how natural we were with each other even before something happened. Just sad right now. Wish things were different – have to keep telling myself that courage and being authentic are such important traits and I am displaying them and shouldn’t compromise on those in a potential partner either. Walking away is tough.
‘But the guy for whatever reason only wanted you when you were not available. Now that you are free, it is no challenge or excitement for him. Because if he really cared, he would be saying, “wow, now I can have her all to myself legitimately!” Instead he is ghosting.’
I can so relate to this, except I was always available and he was the unavailable one. I fell for a MM. He pursued me for a year and I fell for him eventually. I presented a challenge as I did not give into his charms immediately. Three years on, he has decided to divorce, but I found out in October he has been seeing another woman since April. She is apparently married. Another challenge? Exciting for him to have an affair with a married woman because of all the secrecy, and also she is for the moment unavailable.
He has been ghosting me now. He probably thinks that’s ok because I know about his new woman, that what he had with me wasn’t anything really, not for him anyway, so it doesn’t matter if he ghosts me
As you say Adele, they just want a bit of fun, not commitment. And when you start to expect more, that’s when they leg it. My MM knew I had feelings for him. He use to say he couldn’t give me more, and rather than walking away then he still came looking for the proverbial cake, eating as much as he could. I stupidly gave him the cake because of my feelings, wanting to be with him, to make him happy.
He has sought cake elsewhere, but would have carried on with me, if I hadn’t found out. The ghosting is his way of extricating himself as I have challenged him on his behaviour. Ghosting is a cowardly thing to do.
It’s hard to accept that these guy’s will never give us what we want, be who we want, and have basically just used us. That hurts a lot and the pain is difficult to deal with, but deal with it somehow we must.
Broke contact yesterday evening :(. Sucks. I think its darn hard to see him everyday and in my meetings and avoid looking at him. Today was my bday and I feel like crap. 41, single mom, but mostly I feel bad coz I question if feelings are anything you can even go by anymore. Being Naive and trusting really brought me here. Yesterday I asked him what went wrong, why the u-turn. He said “well some times I felt like while the connection was so strong there was something a little wierd too” “I was scared – didnt’ want to things to end like this” “I didn’t want a relationship” – To this last one I asked you didn’t want a relationship or you didn’t want one with me? and he said I guess with you. Lovely! heart hurts and I constantly question what I did/say to make things go so awry. What could I have done differently? what should i learn from this?
One good thing from our conversation that came out yesterday was –
1. He said I just want you to know that I know you are worried about the professional aspect and I would never do anything to harm your career.
2. I asked him whether he is looking for a job and he said yes. I told him its imperative that he find one in the next few months. and also told him that I am looking.
I just don’t want to deal with this energy at work anymore. I know i have to be strong. I know I have to hold the line. I know I am lucky its only been 3 months. I am just sad that he didn’t know how to step up, follow through, be who I thought he was.
Oh, Tango. Please start protecting yourself. Let the sleeping dog lie – stop poking at the now dead relationship, looking for signs of life.
You are sabotaging your own career…is that what you secretly want to do?
You have given him ammo to use to get YOU fired. You think you are confiding in a friend – but he is NOT your friend. He is a man trying to hold on to his job. When he said “he would not do anything to harm your career” that was codespeak for “I AM going to try to hurt your career before you hurt mine”.
And you gave him ammo by telling him you were looking for a new job. He will casually drop that bombshell of info on the ears of someone who has the power to fire you. It’ll go something like “Hey, Bob, how’s that project going that Tango’s working on? I’m not sure she’s totally invested…she is looking for a new job, you know.” I know. I have been there. I have had male coworkers pump me for info, me being all naïve, me thinking someone’s interested in me and my work, only to have that info used to enrich their own position.
And why you would *expect* he should be looking for a new job….?…… I think that is very presumptuous. He is being quite emotionally detached with you. You two had a dalliance and you think he would care enough about you to uproot his life? He was in it for the fun, not to save your emotional life. He might like his job and his life exactly as it is.
Tango, your heart is broken. Your marriage did not work out. Don’t lose your job, too.
From here on out – Only talk to that coworker about work related matters.
Tango
Been there, done that. Relationships with colleagues can be the road to hell. When things go south, you still see them every workday, you get to see them in your town with their Latest Conquest. Indeed, this situation of yours sounds very much like Narcboy, who only shows interest with women whose current rship is on the rocks or who are in a vulnerable place. I was easing my way out of a rship with a local whose redneck, anti intellectual values had become a serious problem when Narcboy, who’d ignored me til then, descended like a ton of bricks. You too, are easing out of a rship with someone you’re not compatible with. That, is the underlying issue and like others have stated, must be addressed and fixed first. It’s easy to look to another as a solution to what we’re feeling. In my case, Narcboy was the only attractive, educated, active, intelligent, appropriate aged man around. The real issue was the lack of appropriate rship material and the various factors that contributed; basically it was me being in a wrong place. You married someone you don’t feel anything for; that’s the real issue here. Why? Did this happen gradually or did you marry because you could? What can you do to prevent this from occurring in the future? After your divorce, you need time, perhaps years, alone to figure out what you want, what you need to do. It’s taken me 5 years to heal from Narcboy because I have to deal with him constantly though I pointedly ignore him. You don’t want to have to do this with workplace dude. On top of this, you’re facing major upheaval with the divorce. You may not even be living where you are a year from now; you have no idea what the settlement will be etc. Take time to take care of you, ensure your and any children’s future. Hate to be harsh, but now is not the time for new rships.
Oh dear, I’m still the woman trying to guilt affection from the man who hasn’t got it to give. I’m not sure he even particularly likes me as a human being any more and I can’t really blame him. I’ll make excuses for my behaviour every time but the truth is it isn’t very grown up and it demonstrates no self worth. I hope he finds someone nice and I hope I do too. Must remember that next time I’m having a bitter half hour!!!
Abdab,
I disagree, most men have it to give. If any guy can pick up a puppy that is wet and lost, pull it dirty to his chest and stroke it saying lovingly, “You’re going to be okay, little fella, just you wait, we’ll get you some warm bedding and food, there’s a good puppy,” that guy can give love to a WOMAN!!!!!
This is so much crap, oh, I don’t want a relationship right now, oh, I am not ready for a relationship. When that same guy if motivated (and who can say what that motivation would be) would do ANYTHING for a woman he was afraid to lose. Maybe I was not that woman, or maybe you were not for that one guy, but you are for someone (me too).
Have better days, and remember, it is not usually you. They have issues too, mommy issues, low self-esteem at their job around more successful men (this one is huge, but they hide it really well), small penis issues, some woman broke his heart, whatever, who can know?
Thanks Adele and of course Natalie
Some very wise words on this post. Ive jyst ended a ‘relationship’ after only 7 months. My first for many years. Im glad – my time was being wasted. You guys are supportive ????
Sorry the ???? Are meant to be a smiley
They give affection when it suits them to give it. I received lots of affection until he started seeing another woman behind my back. The affection waned when he was sure of her.
Cycles, I know it’s scary, I know it’s painful, but you’ve got to be really really brave now and end this entanglement. I can’t tell you how much better you’ll feel if you do this, go NC and do the work to address what attracted you to this person in the first place. Be strong and know that we are here for you <3
Cycles,
Once you kick him out, you’ll see exactly how much he cares about you.
When I threatened to leave for 3-4 months, then moved out and we met for dates, he was the same a-hole. Nothing had changed. He didn’t care, he wasn’t at my doorstep with flowers and apologies. He didn’t want counseling or make promises to change. Nada. Then I went NC a month later via text. I was always so worried about his feelings and he cared less about mine.
He didn’t care about me while we were in a relationship living together, why would that change when I moved out and went NC? HE DIDNT CARE. That really sucks to realize. maybe I stayed towards the end because I knew that and couldn’t face it. He didn’t care then, and simply let me go, he could care less now.
I think I’ve definitely ‘hung my hat’ on the beginning of a relationship. I’ve been struggling to get over my ex, who broke up with me 3 months ago. We were together for almost 5 months, and things were going great (I thought) and our lives were becomming more intertwined…When he broke up with me suddenly– zero communication of troubles before that. He did seem to have an avoidant personality and based his identity on his ‘projects’ (i.e., work)…Now I can see that he was using this as an excuse to avoid relationships. (He pretty much avoids dating totally and is in his early 30’s). I get stuck thinking about him and wishing I could change things (me being a Florence), or contact him and tell him how he’s selling himself short, just devoting his life to work. But what about my life? This blog is helping me focus on myself and try to regain my confidence again.
Cycles, babe,
You have to understand, this guy IS in a relationship with you. Yes, he is. He is in a fake marriage-type of relationship with you acting as a loving wife. By him not responding “appropriately” back, (and trust me he knows what he should be doing, if he was afraid of losing you, he’d be doing it alright) he is in effect telling you he either (a) does not appreciate your efforts, (b) is a lazy piece of crap and does not genuinely care for you in the long or short haul, (c) has an ingrained habit of taking and not giving to a love partner or (d) holds the “relationship” carrot out in front of you to keep you at status quo, and to keep you spinning on a wheel to please him, as you are never going to do enough for his version of what your relationship with him should be. In other words, he will have you do everything for him for the next 9 years, and he will STILL slobber-mouth “oh, I am not ready for a relationship.”
Well, he is in a relationship, and you need to pull the carpet out from under him. Tell him this: “Okay, you aren’t ready for a relationship, that is fine. I have tried to manage my life to suit yours, taken care of you and yours and you are not reciprocating because you are not ready for a relationship. Thank you for the clarity. I have wasted/waited long enough. I believe it is time for you to move out, and when you are ready to for a real relationship, you can give me a call. There is no guarantee I will wait for that call, or that I will not have already moved on (to someone who gives me back what I give to him, as those men DO exist), but I will grant you that you can ‘try’ to call me when you are ‘ready.'” (This lessens the blow of the kick-out, and hopefully stops a fight, which you are over this anyways).
Continue with “In the meantime, I think it is only fair to you for you to leave now, to pursue the life you really want, to become who you need to be for your version of the relationship you deserve. I want your sh*t/stuff/crap/bags/clothes and furniture out by THIS WEEKEND. Don’t feel obligated to call/text/write me to analyze this, I have analyzed it to death – and I am over it and over your influence on me, we don’t even need a sloppy good-bye, but you need to make your plans to leave, because you are leaving.”
You will feel light as air after this speech, and it will 100% give you your dignity back to you immediately, which is the point. Once his stuff is out, and help him get it out quick, offer to rent a van for him, whatever it takes, get it out fast. Then, change the locks. Hope he never calls, and if he does go No Contact.
Every time he tries to call, and he may not, maintain NC. Then, fix up the house for the holidays and enjoy your child/ren. Buy some nice super cute shoes and just feel good for awhile on your own. Don’t look for him at social media sites, don’t see him at the same places, be on your own and live your life. You will find you are happy again and will be ready for a better guy in the future. Who is surely out there for you. Good luck. You are loved.
Wow! Tough reality I tell ya! Ladies… I truly appreciate your insight.
Rachel I appreciate your bravery and I know exactly what that must feel like as i’ve been through it so many times in the past it’s refreshing to know that these things do pass. What I haven’t mentioned is the fact that I haven’t been in a bonafide actual relationship in 5 years and the relationship I had before that lacked everything it needed to have to be a mutually fulfilling relationship and lasted 3 years.
As I was writing that dissertation last night, i felt like I had already found my answer and I made a decision to call him right after to end things. I broke down on the phone with him which is something I wished I didn’t do but I couldn’t help it…I had been grieving this loss all weekend and it was time to put this fantasy to an end.
As I spoke to him, he asked me why I wanted to be with him and to be honest…I had to stop and think because it’s a few things that need to either change or stop before I could consider being in a relationship with him. So why am I chasing the title when I am not fully convinced this is the man I want to be in a relationship with…when I haven’t done due diligence. So he told me that a relationship is not going to fix our baggage and he is willing to do his part to change the barriers between us that are causing us to fight a lot these days. He said he feels like i’m not giving him a chance to prove himself to me because I bring up the fact I am not happy that we have not progressed to a deep relationship nearly every other day. He also told me that I need to do what’s best for me…he doesn’t want to lose me but he doesn’t want to see me unhappy either.
This man drives about 2+ hours to see me one way and has to leave at 430am to make it to work the following day. He mentioned that he was sorry for not taking initiative on so many things. He said he knows he could do better and instead of talking about better he wants to start putting action into it. Said that moving forward he will be more affectionate, he will start initiating vacations and dates, said that he will motivate me to go to the gym and if it means a lot to me that he is a part of my family holiday festivities, he will be there even though he personally does not feel like the timing is right.
He also said that he is looking for a wife. Said that he is ONLY interested in me and just needs to be sure that we are right for one another before taking that leap of faith when we already have so much against us it seems like. He’s right. I’m not happy with a lot of what is lacking in our relationship and I am not afraid to express this to him probably a lot more than I need to be… and if these things don’t change this early this might be something we will have to end immediately. Affection is important to me and my own independence (free will) is as well. I know relationships aren’t roses and butterfly’s so I can’t expect this to come easy but if i’m going to trust myself on this one, I think I should try to give him one more chance without bringing this topic up again for at least a month because now that he’s not coming around as often, i’ll only see him once or twice a week.
I’m doing this because I do trust him. He is also very consistent to a T. He doesn’t miss a beat with his phone calls and making time for me as well as constantly checking in and updating me on his every move. He is NEVER on his phone. He is great with the kids, a good listener and most importantly, he shares my faith. However, we are almost 4 months into this. I told him last night that if things don’t get better between us before the end of this year they never will. Time is too precious. I also need to work on running away when I have issues…and confront them head on with him. He stated he didn’t like when I sucked my teeth at him or sighed when he talked to me and that’s understandable. I can’t tell the man how to feel. He’s 35 so we have an almost 8 year gap between us and we definitely don’t agree on a ton of things but they aren’t relationship deal breakers to me because they can be fixed without either of us having to change anything about ourselves.
I feel like I am peace now. I did some writing and I am prepared for however this is going to end after the grieving I did this weekend. Though I am hopeful because I believe in this, I can see myself loving him and vice versa and I can see how committed he has truly been to the process. So i’ll be sure to check in a month from now with an update.
Cycles, you said – “I’m doing this because I do trust him.”
No you’re not. You’re doing this because you are too afraid to move on without him in tow. You are doing this because you feel a “pretend relationship” is better than no relationship at all.
A year from now, you will have the same issues of lack of attention, lack of reciprocation, and feeling alone.
I am even wondering if your post is a “bot” of sorts. It’s just so stereotypically anti-BR wisdom. You are preening from his renewed interest…the fact that he is back-tracking is music to your ears. Your man is doing all the things to keep you at status quo, and feeding you all the lines that promise some future change. Future-faking. And you want to see it play out because ….?…..
Cycles, if this is a real situation, your future is now. Kick this man to the curb, he is really not into you. Start dating other people. Others say don’t date, get to know yourself, but Cycles, I don’t think you have any interest in yourself. You are mostly interested in man drama. That is your right. I have a feeling that right now, if a new handsome man expressed fervent interest in you, you’d find it very easy to forget about this current man. Or you’d create a “which one?” drama in your head. Didn’t you say that part of the appeal was actually having someone in tow for the holidays? I understand that feeling. It comes from wanting to put on a show for others. If you were secure in “just” you, it would not matter one bit to you to be single at the holiday gatherings.
FWIW, I don’t want a boyfriend who feels it is his job to “motivate me to go to the gym”. Talk about a subtle put-down! But maybe that kind of thing turns you on…?….maybe you want someone else to take charge of you. The men/people who motivate ME do it by example.
Elgie,
I appreciate the tough love but I guess I have to understand why you’d becoming from that place because you’re judging from only what I have given you.
First off, I am not afraid of moving on and if I would rather be in a pretend relationship than none at all, I wouldn’t be battling with myself or talking his brains out about this issue knowing that I could ultimately be pushing him away.
Secondly, did you say I have no interest in myself? Elgie, I have NO INTEREST in dating ANYONE ELSE right now. The thought alone DRAINS me. Last thing I have is time or emotional energy to even entertain the idea of another man in my life. Like I said, i’ve been single over 5 years now…literally single. So why do you get the impression that i’m pressed to introduce him to my family when for the last 5 holidays I haven’t had any man to introduce.
You mis-read me there clearly. I would like him to be a part of my families holiday festivities ON CONDITION that we are on good terms (i.e. relationship). I didn’t let him attend the few family gatherings for birthdays etc that have occured in the last month because I didn’t want to give my family the impression I was in a relationship or go into the whole explaining thing. My family has never seen me with a man, my daughter has NEVER seen me with a man other than her dad and she was a baby when that ended so she barely remembers so the last thing I want to do is jump into this. If I was that desperate, I would have introduced the last 10+ men i’ve seriously dated HEAVY in the last 5 years. I didn’t because I was uncertain about them like I am now and most of them were EUM and just plain assclowns.
My man friend is the COMPLETE and UTTER opposite of anything I have EVER experienced. All the men I used to attract came with the same almost IDENTICAL traits and behaviors that were always cues for me to leave and red flags. This is different. For the first time.
Lastly, this man met me when I was a gym rat. He isn’t a gym rat nor does he need to be in my opinion but sometimes I skip the gym out of laziness and feel as though it would be nice if he could push me to go sometimes. A little motivation from your partner goes a long way but it’s not something I NEED. It’s just nice to have. The gym was already my life before I met him and it doesn’t have to be his life just because it’s mine. We’re not one in the same.
*drops mic*
Hi, Cycles. Your previous post starts out with you calling him, in tears, ready to walk away. You even state that you did not have an immediate answer to *why* you wanted him so badly. Then, it continues with you believing all his future-faking words. ‘He’s looking for a wife. Woo hoo! Let’s just hang in there and get to that brass ring…even though I am not sure why I want him so much.’ So he now gets a little time to *change*…”told him last night that if things don’t get better between us before the end of this year they never will”……though it is not clear what happens then …?
And apparently I wrongly interpreted this part – “I feel like the holidays are only going to make this worse because this is when it matters the most.” – as you saying it is very important to you to be in a good relationship around the holidays, since it “matters most” at this time of year.
But something in my words pricked you, and I apologize for that. My BS meter was ringing like crazy. But I never meant to offend. I am sorry for offending you.
Elgie R.,
I felt like you were right, and I wrote a long post saying kick him to the curb too, but okay. Words can offend, but it doesn’t mean that it was meant to offend, as we are on the outside looking in.
I had a guy once who kept telling me, “I will give you a swift kick in the ass when you need it” which was not literal, but the reminder type of reference. I kept thinking, and finally had to tell him “I don’t need that from you, so no thank you.” But he felt good saying it, I didn’t feel good hearing it.
I guess some people want to make a relationship work, and whatever we see, we just see, and the person on the inside of the situation will see it differently. I can accept that.
I have a relative like this. We see the train coming at him and he just stands there on the tracks. He moved in with a woman who had a teenaged daughter who cut herself – I told him, she (teenager) will say something to you and be seen scantily clad one day, and you will be deemed a sex offender, fighting it the rest of your life. It did not happen, thank goodness, but our predictions she would kick him out came true.
Some people only want their own advice. I am going to stop writing long posts, as they have no meaning………
I enjoy your posts very much and would like to request that you continue to write them! 🙂
They don’t always fall on deaf ears and I am in need of all the straight-forward, unambiguous advice I can get right now following my latest dating mishap.
So please keep em coming!
Hi Cycles, okay, another big step back, another breath.
None of us know or can know if he is EU, being wishy washy, or strange with you. Everything we post here, mostly out of worry, fear, and vulnerability, can be interpreted like we’re involved with someone who is up to no good. Sometimes it’s true, sometimes it isn’t. In the end, only you can know.
I think before you go further thinking about what HE wants and whether or not there is a future or if he’s just faking it, try the very best you can to re-focus on how YOU want to FEEL. We can get so lost in other people’s agendas, consulting our crystal balls in which we only see our past and our current fears, that we forget what it’s really about – what we want and whether or not we’re feeling well and centered in the situation we are in.
Some of the things you’ve mention in previous posts do sound like he is quite disrespectful regarding your needs (e.g. putting you down for mentioning your discontent.) Other things you say he’s told you are actually quite understandable: Why force a label on a relationship you BOTH aren’t sure about yet. Why think about taking him along for Christmas when YOU are unhappy with him? He’s also just looking for someone who will accept him for who he is and for what he has to offer. It’s hard to accept that whatever they have to offer is, in fact, NOT enough for us, and make a choice based on that fact. It’s “easier” when they actually do something that is such an obvious no-go, we have to break it up. When it boils down to respecting our own needs and desires enough to call quits on something that’s sort of working, sort of not, it’s much, much harder work.
You’re still in it, you’re still figuring out how to engage or disengage healthily. Please don’t let people’s (well-meaning!) input here make you second guess your own reality. Which, alas, you’re still working hard to figure out!
Even with good and healthy boundaries, it’s an illusion we’ll always do the right thing in the right way, swiftly, and cleanly. We’re human, we need time, and you’re not weak or delusional that you’re struggling to figure out what’s right.
Cycles,
I’m gonna have to agree with Elgie on this one.
All it’s taken is a few half-hearted assurances on his parts and all of a sudden he’s forgiven and you’re willing to overlook the obvious red flags in favour of giving him another shot? It’s obvious that any relationship is better than no relationship for you, which is a shame because you will always end up settling for less than you deserve.
I know what it’s like to be alone and feel lonely. I have never had a single LTR in my life and I’m 33 in Feb. Not so much as a valentine’s card, no official declarations or meeting of parents – nothing. It’s gotten to the point now where my own step-family think I’m a lesbian as I’m the only childless and single one out of all my cousins, aunts, uncles etc. It sucks, and some days I feel completely inadequate, like I’ve failed at being a human because I can’t get a man.
Then I remember all the time I have wasted on guys like yours and my now ex. I remember all the times I felt lonely and cheated whilst still in a relationship because the guy was simply resistant to change, or made a lot of promises he had no intention of keeping. All the hurt, frustration, stress, confusion and anguish I felt because his actions and words were completely out of synch. All the times I spent waiting patiently for better to come and never seeing it arrive. All the times I looked at my friend’s healthy relationships and thought, “why can’t I have that?”.
If he’s what you believe you’re worth, than by all means, continue to pursue this relationship. But make no mistake, he will not change. Why should he? He’s gotten away with being so non-committal from day one, so there’s no real incentive for him to change into the man that you want/need him to be. He will continue to feed you crumbs and say things to get you gassed (e.g. he wants a wife) to divert you from the fact that he’s not fulfilling his side of the deal.
It’s your choice Cycles, but if you want to ignore the warning signs, you have to prepare yourself for what is coming.
I agree, and from what I understand, it’s called defensive hope.
I have a question about something Tundra Woman wrote above. ‘He’s just not that in to you. If that’s the definition of an EU, then so be it.’ Is it?
I read that as Tundra Woman saying we have a double standard. “He’s not into you” does NOT mean he is EU, but we women immediately cry “EU” when a man is not into us. We cannot believe that a man is just not into us…after all we’ve done for him! But we are allowed to “not be into him”, because he does not meet some requirement on our own checklist, and if he tells us we are the EU one, well then, he just can’t handle the truth.
That’s the way I read it too.
I see the difference like this:
Not into me: doesn’t want to be with me for whatever reason, does not pursue a relationship with me, feels we are not an item, he can do better, he will keep stepping after I take myself off the menu and stop sharing benefits for free without a commitment. Doesn’t care about intimacy with me, has no real regard for me.
EU: can’t be with anyone because he has no emotions to share, cannot access his inner self for anyone, and may want to be with me, but has too many barriers/baggage or insecurities. Might stay around, or come in and out at will, but cannot develop intimacy for walls being too high around his heart.
Just one take on it. May be others.
Thank you soo much…just drew my line in the sand…when the stock market crashes the only thing left is to grab up as many marbles as you can and hold your head up turn on your heels and cut your loses…and your article supports this idea. I know im headed in the right direction..
I have been in a relationship for nearly two years. He is 44, no kids never married and longest relationship is three years. He’s never lived with anyone. I see him 3-4 times a week. Everything was going well until I brought up living together and making a plan towards this. He started by coming up with all sorts of practical objections like his mortgage etc. Then finally admitted he did want to live with me in the future but couldn’t say when. He would just know when time was right and he had to be totally sure. I told him I was happy to wait another year but if after that time he still felt the same way it would be over for me. He said he just wanted to enjoy spending time together. He has decided to see a counsellor as he realises all his friends are settled down and he never has. He goes on about his parents bad marriage. I read some of the posts related to this one and feel v uneasy. Am I just avoiding the inevitable and wasting another year of my life? Thoughts welcome. My sister says it shouldn’t be that hard if he wants commitment he would at least plan towards that future.
Kate, does he know what it is that he’s not totally sure about? Do you know why his previous relationships ended?
It’s a shame he’s been affected so deeply by his parents marriage but opting so see a counsellor should be a huge step in the right direction, whatever happens between the two of you. I hope he finds a good one and carries it through. I’m wondering if you’ve met his parents though, and does he have difficulty committing to other plans with you?
I was in a relationship with someone for about 2.5 years – he was 50ish years old, never married, no kids. He told me his (still married) parents didn’t get on and he’d had quite a traumatic childhood because of it. I think he wanted to right the wrongs of his parents marriage in his own. Only I don’t think it mattered too much who was going to be in it because he also wanted to mould me into his ideal version of me. I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t have committed to us living together until I became that person (so, like, never lol). I got out when I eventually realised he didn’t actually like ‘me’. I never met his parents, or any of his family come to think of it. We did arrange it once but he backed out at the last minute. He had commitment issues.
I relate most to business contexts so I like to look at the possibility of a relationship not working out or having a disappoint outcome as “Cost of Opportunity”. Sure wish relationship COP isnt tax deductible though ;-). Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
correction: Sure wish relationship COP was tax deductible though ;-).
Natalie,
This is a tough pill to swallow. Not sure how you are gifted with such insight. I read this post and cried because the truth of it hurts. You see I’ve been under the impression that I am some sort of martyr in my marriage. I give and give and give and sacrifice (yes I sacrifice the stuff that you never should like your dignity and self respect). I realize after reading your post that the truth is that I feel deep down like I have given over so much that surely I have earned the right to be loved. But the truth is that I’m the biggest fool. This has been going on for 12 years and on and on it goes. I allow myself to be spoken to any sort of way and cheated on. At times he is very sorry and remorseful. He loves (or a suitable facsimile of loving) me the most when I am taking the most crap. He now has a steady girlfriend now that I apparently drove him to because I was not good enough (thin enough, rich enough, or sexually adventurous enough). However he says daily that if I leave that it will crush his world. The joy would leave his life if I leave. So he needs us both. He needs me to stay put while he takes her out on dates and to hotels. I need to be here to love him when he comes home. I do this. But now I know why I do this thing that I would be horribly ashamed of if my mother ever knew. I do this because when he comes home to my warm smile and embrace, he is so kind and tender. It’s like I win because I’m the most loving person ever. I’m special yay! I give him this gift that no person in their right mind would give. The idea of cutting my losses hurts. The idea of going on like this hurts. But now my mind and body have caught on. They know that this is not sane or good for me. There is a rebellion underway. I’m finding that I’ll be working, and suddenly I’ll burst into uncontrollable crying fits. I’ll be shopping and suddenly I am shaking. The idea that I’m never going get my ROI is killing me. Or it feels like it is killing me. I’ve invested so much! Taken huge losses. I’m not sure at all if I even have the strength (I suspect I don’t) to love a man ever again. I’m afraid that this has tapped me out and if I don’t see profit from it, there’s no second go around for me.
Hi Trish,
I hope nothing that I write is going to sound too harsh; I couldn’t believe it when I read that your boyfriend now has a set up where he openly goes out with another woman and then returns home to a warm, loving you. I don’t like to say this but however he has treated you, whatever he’s done, you have done far worse to yourself by accepting this, treating yourself with such a lack of respect. I’m not judging, I’ve taken heaps of crap from men for all kinds of misguided reasons, so I have some insight into how a person can end up in that place. You recognise that there is nothing whatsoever for you in this situation. This man has no love and no respect for you and when those things are gone they don’t come back. For your own sake end the relationship once and for all, it will hurt and it will be difficult, but so is doing what you’re doing and at least if you end it there are possibilities and hope.
Wishing you luck.
Not harsh at all. You’re just telling the truth. I did not used to be like this (at least I don’t think I was). Me before I met my husband would kick the crap out of me now for allowing this to go on. If I had a friend taking this treatment, I would be so upset with that person to allow this situation. I don’t even know who I am anymore. As I read more and more on this site, I’m starting to see how truly ridiculous I am. It’s scary what can become normal, even when it hurts like death.
Hi,
I think there was a bit of projection there! Your story touched a chord with me, it reminded me of a past relationship where by the end the guy was treating me badly and I just kept throwing myself under the relationship bus in some kind of insane belief that if I did it often enough he’d see that I was worthy of being treated better(!).That was never going to happen because at the end of the day he had no interest/ had lost interest in treating me well, but it took me forever to wrap my head around that. I understand what you mean by normalizing completely crazy behaviour and beliefs; back then chasing and trying to keep this man made complete sense to me. In retrospect it looks certifiable. No man can ever be worth hurting yourself for and if a relationship is right it isn’t going to hurt like that, the whole mess did teach me that, which I’m grateful for. But I think I understand something about how hard it is to untangle yourself from situations like that; you lose so much of yourself in trying to keep an impossible relationship going that when you finally reach the point where you’re ready to make the break it’s all the harder because of all the bits of yourself you lost or left behind along the way. I really do wish you well. All the best.
Trish – I feel your pain! This sounds very much like my last relationship. I spent five years trying to “earn” his love – accepting the unacceptable, excusing the inexcusable, gradually turning into a person I didn’t even know anymore. I can’t even count the number of times we broke up and got back together, and each time, I lost a little more ground. By the time it was all said and done, I lost all self respect, several friends, and even a really great job because of my obsession with him. I thought if I just hung in there long enough, and did enough for him, maybe he’d decide I was “enough” for him. I reached the point where I knew how crazy it all was, but figured I was beyond hope, so I may as well settle for whatever crumbs of happiness he had to give.
Fortunately, I stumbled across “Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl” on Amazon one day, and realized I wasn’t quite as crazy as I thought. There were other women who had felt the same feelings I was feeling, had done the same things I was doing – LOTS of them! It gave me hope, and eventually, the courage to walk away. And as much as it hurt to give up all I’d invested in him, and let another woman “win” my place in his life, I know it would have destroyed me to stay.
Cindy,
I think it is realizing that to stay in the relationship would have destroyed you (and me) that we should focus on.
If we stayed they would continue cheat, chase other women, lie etc and who could cope knowing that long term? It would affect our mental and physical well being more ultimately – bad enough that we are hurting as it is, knowing that another woman has been put on the pedestal that we once stood on, but the long term damage would be so much greater.
I am still trying to understand why my MM felt the need to pursue another woman. Is it a challenge? Is it an addiction? Does he need to seek out women who are vulnerable, in a less than perfect relationship/marriage and he then goes in to reel them in? Why keep several women in tow? Is it an ego thing? Why when I found out about his new MM why did he just not end it with me?
All these questions drive me crazy.
New woman not new MM! Bad night last night…..
Trish,
Marriage isn’t a business deal. You don’t get ROI or profit from it. Whoever on earth taught you this? Counselling would likely benefit you very much as you untangle the strange messages you have received and believed about relationships.
It’s very simple. If you’re okay with him cheating on you and being blatant about it, then stay. If not, then divorce him. It won’t be easy but it will be easier than living out the rest of your life with such a self-centred loser.
Thanks Liz B I do wonder the same that he too is waiting for me to become the perfect person. Perhaps he is feeling that he has invested a lot so wants to keep us on hold to see if I will transform into that person. His Dad had issues about intimacy and his Mum had serious mental health problems as a result. She was very unhappy but they stayed together. He has no problems there but worries about commitment and then it goes wrong. I took the counselling as a positive that he sees he has a problem and wants to make things work. At the same time I have this fear that he will be saying the same thing a year from now.
Trish that is such a hard situation to be in. It sounds like a part of you has had enough but another can’t bear the thought of not being with him. I think breaking up with someone is like addiction withdrawal. It’s really painful and we need support to get us through it. We can be in a very dark place for sometime. We might relapse and go back a few times. The pain of withdrawal v pain of the toxic relationship. All I can say from my own experience of leaving my marriage due to rampant cheating husband is it is really hard and shit and then in time it gets easier. For me it was like being in a dark tunnel when gradually you see the light, especially with help from others. All easy for me to say, I’m not in your situation. I hope you find the strength to leave him as he is treating you terribly and almost seems he is making you feel you deserve that treatment.
I’m trying very hard to dig deep to see if there is still a person in there worth saving. I just ran across a Facebook photo of an even that they attended together. Oddly enough it’s something that I would have loved to have attended (way more my thing than either of theirs). I won’t say what it was but it is related to my field professionally. I keep staring at it, trying to get angry enough to push past this dread feeling that I get when I think of leaving. I don’t know if this is a healthy tactic or not but i’m desperate to get my head right so I can get out of this pain. I really appreciate your words and everyone else as well.
Just ask yourself this question: do I want to live like this for the rest of my life? Do I want to stay in the kind of a relationship (I am right now) for many years to come?
Once you look into a mirror and see yourself aged by 20 or 30 years, would coming back to this moment make you feel regretful? Do you think you will EVER regret being in such a relationship INSTEAD of trying to find out what is behind the corner? There could be a delicious cake .. waiting for you … that special someone who could give you all you want FREELY without any special efforts on your part. Just think about it!