Have you ever felt as if someone was going to be or do certain things only to be surprised about how far off base you are? While this may have come about due to proclamations and promises on their part, if your hopes and expectations stemmed from your own vision of things, you have an understanding of what it feels like to be caught out by assumptions. It can feel as if you’ve been in your own version of Inception – a dream within a dream within another dream. You can struggle to get a sense of what was real and what was fake.
Why can’t they go back to being the person I thought they were in the beginning?, is one of the most popular questions on Baggage Reclaim. We don’t like when people do a U-turn on what they put across or the picture we painted in our mind.
When you delve into why we choose particular partners for a relationship or why we have the expectations that we do of somebody, it becomes clear that in dating and relationships we make a hell of a lot of assumptions based on how things look, how we’d like things to be, and what can be some pretty dodgy beliefs about what we believe makes a person valuable and attractive. We cloak ourselves in illusions and then feel deeply pained, confused and disillusioned when we have to come back to earth and deal with issues that cannot be ignored against the backdrop of the reality of what we’re experiencing. These assumptions have kept many a relationship spinning its wheels while leaving one or both partners feeling short-changed.
Assumptions are beliefs that you accept as true without proof.
Think about that for a moment and you can already see why this may be a big ‘ole problem – do you really want to be making what may be one of the biggest decisions you will ever make (potentially finding a life partner or certainly a long-term partner to share a relationship with) based on unsubstantiated assumptions? Don’t you need proof before you go getting your feet well and truly under the relationship table?
Do you really want to be making what may be one of the biggest decisions you will ever make (potentially finding a life partner or certainly a long-term partner to share a relationship with) based on unsubstantiated assumptions?
- Do you think that people of a certain religion are more willing to commit than others?
- Do you think that because a person has been married (or in a relationship) before that it means that they’re capable of commitment?
- Do you think that a university professor or someone who you regard as being an intellectual is relationship smart and so as a result, also emotionally intellectual?
- Do you think that people who are well regarded and liked by others, don’t need vetting?
- Do you think that because someone is highly attractive and able to ‘pull’ more sexual partners, that they have the power to determine your attractiveness hence making them more desirable than a less ‘visible’, charming person?
- Do you think that if somebody says that they’re spiritual, a Buddhist, goes to church, is God-fearing, or is the leader of your church, that it means that they are somebody who is in possession of the core values that you’re looking for and that they will conduct themselves with integrity?
These and more, not only represent common assumptions but they also represent common problems in compatibility. If you have been caught out by these, you have a blind spot. Not only is your view being obstructed but the understanding and knowledge gap causes a great deal of pain.
When you acknowledge the existence of blind spots when driving, you can prepare for that by slowing down and being vigilant. The assumptions that you make around compatibility, especially when you continue with them in spite of compelling reasons (experiences) that tell you to adapt your response and open up awareness and understanding, is treating a blind spot as if it isn’t and then wondering why you keep using the same assumption maps and taking the same routes and winding up at the same unwanted destination– a less than mutually fulfilling relationship with love, care, trust and respect.
If you keep using the same thinking that got you into the previous problematic and incompatible relationship, you will keep choosing variations of the same people in different packages and then wondering why you’re getting burned– relationship insanity.
- Whatever their religion, if they’re emotionally unavailable and they have issues that are influencing their choices and self-image, it’s gonna get messy.
- Being married or in a relationship doesn’t always mean that the person is committed and emotionally available or that they will be in the future.
- A person could be a genius and scoring F on the emotional intelligence front.
- Appearing to be well liked and regarded doesn’t absolve you from doing your due diligence– image isn’t everything; it’s the surface.
- Just because somebody can shag around a lot or is in demand, it doesn’t mean that they have the power to determine your value or that they are substantial. All you’re doing is trying catch the rays and bask in social / superficial proof.
- People can be under the umbrella of a religion and not embody those values or see fit to interpret them in whatever way they see fit.
People unfold and the truth of who people are lies in actions and consistency, not assumptions or proclamations.
To transcend previous relationship experiences, get your assumptions out on the proverbial table and acknowledge where you’re tripping you up. It’s also a good time to ask why you’re so attached to the assumptions. What value do they hold for you?
It’s easy to get caught up in the whole, “Oooh, but that will make me ‘wrong’ if I acknowledge these”, but you either want to be happy or you want to keep insisting that you’re “right” while feeling miserable and taking part in your own Groundhog Day.
Sometimes an assumption exists because it’s one that’s been made since you were a child or it represents an important figure in your life, hence why I have so many BR readers who make the above assumptions because their parent was ‘like this’ and they’re still looking for validation. In many instances, they actually know that the assumption isn’t even true for the person who it’s based on but to acknowledge this leaves them feeling disloyal and even trips on old wounds. Even if the assumption is true for that one person, it doesn’t mean that they have a load of clones out there.
It’s also important to recognise that even if you think that you’re certain things because you claim to be or do something, it doesn’t mean that if you meet somebody that claims or does the same, that you are the same.
We can share commonalities with a person and express them very differently.
The truth shall set you free though because you can get grounded by being conscious, aware and present in your relationships as opposed to using the signal of assumptions to go into autopilot (an unhealthy pattern). It’s also much easier to truly get to know a person and address any issues that come up because there isn’t that awkwardness that arises when you feel peeved that they’re not living up to the assumption that you made about [whatever they told or initially showed you] and then either feeling confused and that you cannot address it (because they didn’t actually say that they were what you assumed), or feeling frustrated when they won’t acknowledge what’s so funky about them not embodying the values that are representative of what they claim.
Sometimes, a person just isn’t who you thought they were or would be. That’s not necessarily ‘bad’ judgement and more, life unfolding so that you can do a spot of mental reconciliation and adjust.
It’s not that you will never make assumptions again – we all do it to save time with our habits – but there is no need to use guesswork when a person is showing you who they are and you’re engaging with them, not just interacting with the hologram of what you assume that they ‘should’ be.
Your thoughts?
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Sometimes, a person just isn’t who you thought they were or would be
Sadly, that is the reality when you deal with a LIAR.
Hi MJ,
I’ll add, per Natalie’s words:
‘What was real and what was fake’???
Promises that don’t come true are no better than lies. Assuming that someone is invested in the truth of their own words is a deadly mistake. Because, yes, some people are SOOO good at lying. Dress the lies up with a smile and some charm and the damage will follow.
Hi Say Something,
What was real and what was fake’??? That is the million dollar question and one I will never be able to answer.
I hate to think about all those times he was smiling in my face knowing he was cheating. When he got down on his knee to propose (snake) he was probably already cheating and making HOtel runs. Yet the nut case invested in a ring and put on a fake show. He is a fraud.
I never even at hinted at wanting to be engaged. So, the lie and this act was something he initiated. Now, it is a daily battle to regain some sense of normalcy. Now, I question the actions of everyone. I could have never guessed it would be a daily battle to recover from this. You are right promises broken are lies. Why do they go to so much trouble to lie? Just fricken leave.
I am a shell of who I use to be. A major frustration is not finding joy in things I use to love. When does the numbness leave and joy return? I still have HOPE that one day I really will turn this around but it is going to be a long road back.
BTW your comment about letting go of the crack pipe tickled me. SMILE.
MJ
MJ,
Everyday, for 15 months now, I miss the person I THOUGHT he was; the person I knew until TLW (The Last Weekend). And I am guilty on a daily basis for wondering:
‘Why can’t they go back to being the person I thought they were in the beginning?’
It still eats away at me, not knowing what was real, or if anything was real, and IF anything was real, how could he just abruptly quit forever and NEVER see me again. Ever. It feels like he just killed me off and went along with his life as if I was never a part of it. Nothing happened between us to cause that decision and only HE secretly knows the truth.
Idk why they future faked. Because it was easy? It sounded good? They are skilled manipulators? Making promises generates positive reactions from us that makes THEM feel good?
ljsrmissy said: ‘a man who is able to walk away from you is not your guy!you so do not want a man who is able to walk away from you! the reasons don’t matter!’
While this statement is so true, it’s the REASONS that continue to haunt us, because that is where trust was violated. Where emotional destruction occurs. The FACTS are just rational and logical, so we can understand the bottom line.
I haven’t experienced any joy since then either, and like you I am trying hard to recover. I am still doing everything AND more, but it sometimes feels like forced living.
I got asked AGAIN yesterday if I’m ‘seeing’ anyone. I responded ‘no, and I hate that question.’ I do HATE it. Why does anyone CARE? I don’t think people really DO care, but I’m not sure why I am constantly asked. If I had a date for each time I was asked that question, I’d need a personal assistant to schedule for me. I should add that every person who asks me is ‘happily’ married. They’re all so happily married and coupled and so are all of their friends, and none of my friends know any single, appropriate guys. True story. (oh well he’s an alcoholic, but he holds a job. He just got separated, and only wants sex, it could be fun. Pretty sure he’s racist, but… Well he’s 20 years older than you, but he has money. He IS a smoker, and drinks alot, but he’s lonely too. I wouldn’t say he’s fat, and I used to hook up with him, but not now…) I won’t even entertain any of these *wonderful* leads.
I did put down MY crack pipe, but he’s still like crack to me and I know it.
Say Something, you sound just like me. I don’t know how long you were with this assclown, I was with mine for years. It’s taken me three years to move on emotionally. I was future faked with the whole, “I want to spend the rest of my life with you” only to be told he didn’t know what he wanted in a grocery store on Christmas Eve. Yes, it was painful and bewildering. This kind of emotional damage takes a long time to heal. I can say that it does get better, although for me, the day things really changed was when a judge told this assclown to stop harassing me and to stay away from me, because even after he told me he didn’t want me, he kept coming back, this was my blindspot. I never thought that a man who said such things would come back unless he had feelings for me. He had feelings alright and I now know where they are located. I have not dated since. My trust level is still too low or non-existent. I am afraid what you are going through is entirely normal for your situation, I’m so sorry. It took me a long time to really enjoy myself, but I can say I do now and also I spend at least one or two days a week not thinking about him, a major improvement. Also, I have had your nightmare dating offerings of unsuitable and dysfunctional candidates, no thanks I’d rather be alone. As to why these individuals do the things they do? I can only answer with what I found out about my ex. Some of you may recognize my story; my ex was taken by the police to a psych ward. He was masquerading as a 28 year old Austrailian, (he is a 50 year old Brit)to a mental health professional, he often told me people mistook his accent for an Aussie)the mental health professional called 911. This story beggars belief but, it is all true. Sometimes we really need to question these peoples motivations and understand that they are pathological and dangerous. You probably dodged a bullet as did I. I am still working on myself and my boundaries and focusing on me. Had I been doing that in the first place, maybe I wouldn’t have been so open. That being said, sometimes you encounter deeply disturbed individuals who will say anything to get what they want and they never tell you what is really going on in their heads. They can’t control their behavior or their sick minds. Keep going Say Something, you are strong you will get through this and you will smile again. Maybe, like me, in the future when you think of your ex, you will smile and laugh. I know I do.
Hi Lucky_Charms,
You commented: “sometimes you encounter deeply disturbed individuals who will say anything to get what they want and they never tell you what is really going on in their heads. They can’t control their behavior or their sick minds.”
I partially agree… I agree that we DO encounter these people. Do you really believe they can’t control their behavior?
Did you post your story here? It sounds somewhat familiar but I don’t know why. Three years. But you’re doing better!
Hi Say Something,
Don’t you want to slap those people who think you want to meet a misfit? It is like they are saying all you need is a warm body. Yuck. No, I am alone but not desperate.
As I read all the stories on BR about these unhappy ACs -what are they looking for? I guess they just go from woman to woman. None of these fools know what they want from a relationship. I hope I never meet a royal ass again.
There were days early on when I thought this was all just a really bad dream.
You said they are master manipulators. Yep. They are like the prisoners who groomed Joyce to get what they wanted. They have honed their craft (lying, future faking etc.) I hear that people like this know how to read people to get just what they want.
Don’t ever settle for any of the creepy people that are being suggested as viable dates. Hey -did you realize that people in the business world can do future faking? They do and it made me laugh hysterically. I had someone pull something pretty tricky on me, but thanks to good ole BR I ended up three steps ahead and laughing. I would have to tell you over coffee. LOL. Some people are just too much.
MJ
‘Its the reasons that continue to haunt us’ – I agree with that completely. I accept he wasn’t the guy for me, but I’ll never understand why I had to be treated cruelly in the break up with a disappearing act. It hurts to the core.
I hear you. Disappearing after a year together…Nothing said. Just never heard from again after a night I thought was great – we talked all evening and were so relaxed and [I thought] happy. I guess there was never any feeling, respect or kindness there to begin with.
say something. First things first lol at your descriptions of the undesirables. It is all too true and that’s what makes it so funny! It’s one of those I laugh to keep from crying type things.far as the future taking is concerned, I feel as though the guys to do it do it to extract you go strokes, admiration, and you lation and things like that from women under false pretenses. and like u said they want to feel good that it gives them without actually having to deliver to her. Ugh! Selfishness. in terms of wanting to know why I get it I totally get the whole thing eating at us and us just wanting to know why. However, I know that even if he did give you an answer, it wouldn’t be satisfactory it would just leave more questions.the thing is that these guys know themselves a whole lot better than we do. That is to say that he knows what we know about him, and what we don’t know about him.and it is his choice to make in terms of what woman if any at all he wants in his life. or what kinda woman if any he wants to go the distance late. Because we already know there are a lot of unavailable guys out here that don’t want relationships but they just want the “services” that women provide. And Nat has written a many great articles on that. , that is his decision to make, and whatever he decides we have to trust that they know themselves better than we know them. His business his decision. also if you know that you did your best you gave your best, then that’s all there is to it. There is no more after that!overall we all deserve something that lasts and that is unbreakable and what I’m saying is that when these guys for whatever reason they decide to move on then clearly this is something that they saw as breakable. and the reason that say that the reasoning doesn’t matter is because you know what you deserve that’s the bottom line. You deserve stability security in a loving partnership ship that last. we don’t want men who are not sure about us. So if that is something that this particular guy couldnt or didn’t want to give to you,then darn it all means it’s a good thing that he went on and saw his self to the door.
phone typos. I meant to say as far as the future faking is concerned. guys do it because they want to extract Eagle strokes, admiration, adulation and things like that under false pretenses
@MJ,
Not sure why my ‘friends’ think I’d like to settle for a misfit. Sometimes I think it’s ‘fun’ for them to sit back and enjoy the show, since they don’t have to live this way.
And yes, business deals that are never going to happen the way they are initially presented, candidates that misrepresent, partners who nod in agreement and then ignore all that was discussed. It’s everywhere. But when it happens at an intimate level, it’s so much worse.
@Yoyo, yes, to the CORE.
@ ljsrmissy,
I’m stuck on the thought about having ‘the right’… I’m not sure if these guys really know themselves. THAT, in itself, may be part of the problem. For someone who told me how self-aware he was, and how much he’d really come to know himself, there is NO way his actions represented a self-aware guy.
You are right that his business is his decision, but I still don’t think that inviting me for the weekend, acting totally normal and invested, having sex with me like all was well, making more future plans with me including driving by a seasonal place that hadn’t yet opened and telling me AGAIN how he’d take me there, and then finally sunday night displaying an entirely different personality (jeckyll/Hyde style) to discard me is his ‘right’. Then in my confusion I asked for clarification… ‘Are you DITCHING me?’ He responded, ‘NO. that’s not what I’m saying. Don’t be so harsh.’
But he WAS ditching me. And HE was being harsh. I was just taking his word salad and trying to unscramble it. Being in total shock, I must have clung to his follow-up words, because I was STILL ok to stay there, have sex with, as he ‘went back to his normal self’ and acted like we’d not had a ‘conversation’ about breaking up. But something wasn’t right, because the words I heard from him were torturing me. Why would he say those things? The guy I knew (almost six months) would NEVER treat me like that. NEVER. Something had to be have happened with him. Something was wrong- my assumption.
Then he agreed I could extend my stay by one more day. And had sex with me again. Who was I really with? Why did he want me to stay longer? I ASSUMED because we’d talk out whatever was bothering him.
No. After that day I never saw him again. Ever. Yes people can make any decisions they want. A man can change his mind at any given moment because he has ‘the right’ to. He can change his mind while speaking loving words. He can change his mind during an exchange of wedding vows. He can change his mind during sex. He can change his mind while proposing. After she’s pregnant with his child. While his wife is giving birth. While his partner is receiving a cancer diagnosis. While his partner is mourning a death. While eating his cereal. After encouraging his partner to leave her job and move with him. While comforting her over horrible news. On her birthday. Or during a celebration for her kids. At whatever random moment he wants to declare it’s over, it just IS, no matter what.
And the other person must have her own back at all times and accept his decision because these things just happen and he has the right to do whatever he wants. He has the right to withdraw emotionally at any time, no matter what, and our job is then to accept, not contact, and feel ok because this is just life. And he doesn’t need to give a reason because it’s his right to change his mind. Covert manipulation, lying, future faking, deceiving, breaking promises, cheating, gas lighting… even if these things are considered wrong or abusive, they are all his choices and his right. We can never REALLY expect honesty, because we have to have our own backs and never fully trust another. Because that other person has the ability, the right, to change his mind. He can, without any warning, reason, or truth. And if we get hurt, it’s because we trusted the wrong person. Or we missed a flag. When is someone’s word EVER good enough? Because if 100 times in a row his words and actions positively match, why would we think that time 101 is the time when everything changes without notice? Where is any transparency, honesty, accountability, responsibility?
I was invested in a great guy. I was sharing myself emotionally and physically with the person who liked me, was future oriented, and treated me well. I did NOT agree to spend time with and have sex with someone who didn’t really care about me and wasn’t who he claimed to be. Why is it someone’s right to lure another into a false relationship? I understand that BR is here to help us avoid being harmed by looking for signs along the way, by being aware of ourselves and of the relationship. But mostly we end up here after the damage is done. So we will learn to pay more attention. To be super aware.
I suppose to me, serious covert manipulation feels somewhat criminal. I feel violated and deceived. Still. Daily. I would never have invested myself had I known that I was a stopgap in his life. I also realize that there is no ‘justice’ or ‘explanation’ or ‘closure’. A person has the right to operate under false pretense to get what he wants from another person. While it might not be morally acceptable for some of us, it’s actually just ‘how he is’. Any man has the right to present as the most convincing, kind, thoughtful, attentive, affectionate, caring, invested man even if he isn’t.
While the title isn’t one I’d be drawn to, I enjoyed the read. The author was supposed to get married.
http://www.oprah.com/relationships/Get-Dumped-Good-Now-Pull-Yourself-Together
“…no matter how much you love someone, no matter how much they love you, they still might, unexpectedly, go away.”
Hi Say Something,
Thanks for posting this. I got to the part about spending holidays alone and had to stop reading it. The sheer thought of spending holidays alone is too much for me today. I traveled alone all summer. I managed it. Now, I can’t look too far ahead and think about spending all these lovely holidays alone.
My sister sent me photos of her beautiful family vacation. I couldn’t respond. I did all my vacations alone. I guess I am jealous and this is not how I usually operate. I am always happy for other people.
I guess I have changed for the worse. No I don’t want to see anyone’s family photos. Went out to run today and it was like someone had a elephant on my back. I just felt so weighed down.
Has anyone ever felt so numb like they just couldn’t move? This betrayal has altered my life. I thought about all the tough times I have survived and the creative solutions I have come up with to manage a challenge.
I can’t understand why it is not working this time. My friend I wanted to reconnect with is on planes every week going in opposite directions. I need to connect with a human. sorry tough day.
Hi MJ,
You are still hurting and healing. No need to apologize for a tough day, I’ve had over 400 in a row. Yikes! Didn’t mean to upset you with the post, but I did of course think of you.
NML says: “Sometimes, a person just isn’t who you thought they were or would be.” When a partner blindly deceives and betrays, there is, what seems to be never-ending pain for the other person who trusted and believed in him. I was mulling over (ruminating I guess) all the ‘promises’ made to me that never came true. Then I thought about all the lies at the end, where he made up and denied things instead of being truthful. We both know we are incompatible with liars. That was the first time (that I KNOW of) he’d ever lied to me.
I understand about the photos. It’s like me not opening Christmas cards. Sometimes it hurts hearing how happy other people are. I’ve been having multiple, bizarre, terrifying dreams that are waking me up several times a night. I still haven’t slept an entire night in over 15 months.
Today I tackled two bathroom projects. I replaced the handle and valve in my toilet. And I fixed a shower drain thing. Yes, my life is focused on fixing crap now. I dropped multiple bags of clothing off for charity. And it’s only 1:00.
Natalie says she’ll be touring the US. I hope to make it to see her in NYC or Baltimore, as I’m in the northeast. Of course, I don’t know my way around either city, so I’m worried about navigating alone. I don’t know how you managed traveling all over by yourself for a month.
Say Something,
I have been reading positive articles and wanted to share a passage below.
When is NML coming to the US? Let me know where this is posted online. I would love to do this. Planning a fall trip to Maine and a couple other places.
I don’t know how you function with no sleep. How are you making it on such little sleep? Many days I am like you about the time. I guess it moves slow when you are alone.
Healing is a tough road. I don’t miss him at all. I did the right thing. My issue- is trying to rebuild a new life. I don’t want to travel alone. Forever. Give me a couple new friends and it would improve my social life. Right now I am doing everything alone. This causes me to revert back to why I am in this position (I broke off my engagement with a cheater/liar). I am glad I traveled. In six months maybe things will be different (one new friend who has similar interests).
The passage reads:
A more important reason to focus on healing and improvement rather than causes is another fact about emotional pain that is often ignored in self-help books: The causes of injury-related pain are not what sustain it. For instance, a piece of broken glass may have sliced your skin open, but the severed and inflamed nerve endings in the flesh sustain the pain. Preoccupation with why you cut yourself will not help to heal the wound. Similarly, your partner lying to you, cheating on you, or abusing you caused your pain. Preoccupation with why he did it runs the risk of making you live inside his head at the cost of your own healing and growth. The pain is telling you to restore self-value now, through your own positive actions, and that is the only thing that will eliminate it.
Natalie plan a trip to do a workshop in New York city. Then we can all have cocktails together.
MJ
Mary Jane,
Thank you for the passage. “Preoccupation with why he did it runs the risk of making you live inside his head at the cost of your own healing and growth.” So true but I do it anyhow. Last night I awoke multiple times and each time tried to convice myself that we are incompatible due to the fact that he just quit and that thinking anything about him is a waste of my time. And that’s true also, yet I haven’t been able to stop the thoughts and memories, the words he spoke. I am just constantly tired. And I’m losing energy for the non-stop “doing” that used to drive me.
I was at a “gathering/party” the other day at someone’s house. EVERY man there was married and with his wife. There were a few other single women, but 10+ married couples. I’m still offline and no dating or prospects. Not only can’t I meet anyone I’m compatible with, I can’t meet anyone I MIGHT be compatible with! Like Noquay’s recent post in another thread, I too am working on what she calls ‘a “get out without winding up poor and alone for good” plan”.
Now the good stuff:
Here is the link:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/baggage-reclaim-is-going-on-tour/
I have a couple conferences for work this fall I have to attend, but hopefully NML’s dates will work. I have never driven into the city myself, so depending on where she goes, NYC is my first pick to see her. I’m seriously worried about getting 15 minutes away and getting lost! I spent way too much time wrongly navigating the subway last visit. I got lost driving in Baltimore once too. And in Camden, NJ… Pre GPS days. I can always find the closest IKEA though as there’re easy to drive to!
Hi Say Something,
I pass along the positive things I read, but like you said it is tough to follow the advice. I really try to apply what I learn to my life. That is where the work comes in for us. I have to put my plan together for not ending up poor and alone. Sounds dreadful. You and Noquay are steps ahead of me.
The things I need in my life seem so simple to attain yet I don’t have them. One decent friend who wants to hang out and do things with me. This would improve the quality of my life. It has to be someone that I want to do things with. They have to have a high level of energy. Of course I would love a relationship, but that is not where I am focusing my energy right now. I care more about my OWN healing.
My sister just sent a ton of new photos this morning. She has no idea this is getting on my last nerve. LOL. (Dear sister stop sending me photos). This is like the Xmas cards you received. Too much. I am looking around me and I see so many people smiling and laughing. They are actually happy. This is something I would normally walk by and it would not even phase me. I see the price I have paid for inviting someone in my life who turned out to be a liar/cheat. I can assure you that the snake is out there slithering around happy. He is coiled around someone’s neck enjoying the sun. SMILE. They may be bitten like I was eventually. I am concerned about my own healing.
I will go online and fill out the form and request for Natalie to do a New York workshop. You are one brave soul to ride on the subway in NYC. I LOVE I mean really LOVE NYC and cant find an ounce of joy going there anymore. I have ridden the subway there just a few times. I prefer to walk or take cabs. The tube in London is so clean you can eat off the floor. And I actually felt safe on it.
I wanted to share another passage. This is from Brene Brown’s book that I thought was interesting:
If I had to choose the form of betrayal that emerged most frequently from my research and that was the most dangerous in terms of corroding the trust connection, I would say disengagement.
When the people we love or with whom we have a deep connection stop caring, stop paying attention, stop investing and fighting for the relationship, trust begins to slip away and hurt starts seeping in. Disengagement triggers shame and our greatest fears – the fears of being abandoned, unworthy, and unlovable. What can make this covert betrayal so much more dangerous than something like a lie or an affair is that we can’t point to the source of our pain – there’s no event, no obvious evidence of brokenness. It can feel crazy-making.
I try to go back to that helpful passage that Wiser shared with us a couple of months ago about things just changing. I still can’t think about the holidays, but I have travel plans for each one ALONE. I guess I just have to keep myself BUSY. I am not the only one who will be alone.
Hi MJ,
Not sure if I recently read this very same excerpt, but it was about disengagement. And YES, that’s what I got. Quit. Done. No Debating. Over. Bye. Forever. Gone.
So if my blind spot was trusting someone who presented as trustworthy, I now have to use the CERN telescope to examine everyone’s motives and intentions. Just the weekend I was told there was no longer room for me in a specialized group activity. And “sorry, I know this happens to you all the time.” Again, I am the expendable one. Without getting into great detail, it was extremely painful to hear that, and it took everything in me to not cry on the spot. One more
huge blow to my recovery and feeling some stability. I don’t WANT a plan B. I am sick of being disposable. Not valued. Last on the list. Expendable. I have learned that sometimes when I stand up for myself, respect myself, not one other person in the world is here to support me. I’m a permanent substitute. A stopgap. Thanks for your time, effort, money, thoughts, love, support, but you are no longer needed. And repeat. Where are the REAL people? One person to count on? I can count on myself, sure. Pick your favorite group activity, or something that cannot be done alone and then think what would you replace it with? You wouldn’t want to downgrade. This is all fallout from a few years ago when I stood up for myself. Not one other person with me said a word. I was being verbally abused outloud and I knew it. I told him to stop, and was basically told if I didn’t like it I could leave. I walked. Not one person said a word. Because even if they had similar thoughts, I was taking the fall, all by myself. And three years later I cannot ‘get back’ with any sense of stability into this thing. It’s a huge part of who I am and what keeps my head above water. And I’m just sad. I can beg others to let me in if there is any room left. I have 2 shots left. Round one was a fail. Let me also add that being part of a couple can cement one’s spot. I have been ‘let go’ to make room for someone’s gf. Many times. People suck.
Hi Say Something,
Sounds like people around you went radio silent when they could have stepped up to support you. I am sure it felt MISERABLE being verbally abused with idiots standing around looking, knowing it was wrong and not saying a word. For him to behave like that in front of a group of people clearly demonstrates he is feckless. You did the right thing when you walked away.
I hope you can find another way to enjoy this activity. I went to a resort and everyone was coupled up and cute. I sat at the wine tasting alone. But I joined in the conversation. We all had great dancing lessons. I danced with the teacher. None of it is ideal.
This sucks and you are right people in general suck. No one acts like they really know how to treat someone.
My heart aches for you today. I hope you find a way to do what you enjoy knowing it is something to keep your head above water. I am out here having to deal with so many less than ideal circumstances too. Like you I wish that someone besides me had my back. Right now it is just me. Big hug.
MJ
Hi Say Something
If it is any consolation, I am feeling almost exactly what you are feeling. I invested even more in my broken relationship, I married the woman who, not even a month after the wedding, suddenly turned away from me one morning with the words, “Sorry, I have nothing for you.” I gave her the “space” she wanted, I supported her through operations, did dishes, cleaned the house, did my own washing, took her and her kids out to dinner, trundled her kids to school and back, tried to talk, tried to be patient, tried to reason, tried everything humanly possible to connect. It is as good as interacting with a brick wall. The “explanation” that I did receive made no sense. As time dragged on stony silence turned into humiliating remarks and anger outbursts. We are done.
I scoured the internet for answers. I found none. I gave up trying to explain her actions and attitude.
How does this work? How can a co-pilot who could not wait to start this live’s journey together with you, just decide to cut the engines on her side right after take-off? From that moment on, no matter how I wrestle with the controls on my side, the marriage is doomed.
One feels powerless and humiliated. I don’t even have the courage to inform my mother and therefore I have been avoiding her, which is not fair either. One wish that there was some sort of BS-radar that could warn you that a particular partner is BS’ing you.
You know what, Say Something, their issues are their’s, not our’s. We are not responsible for their BS. However, we sit with the fallout of that. The humiliating thing about the whole affair is not what they did to us but how we could allow ourselves to get involved with such a BS’er, eyes wide open, in the first place. How do we explain to family and friends that we were too trusting and tolerant of BS, got sucked and suckered into the web of a BS’er with their own BS that they want to share with us? How do we explain to future potential partners that we have been divorced but that we are actually normal. It’s like being permanently accompanied by the stench of dog poo that we accidentally stepped into.
Maybe the hardest, and most enlightening thing, about such a business is the way we view ourselves. And therein, perhaps, lies the whole answer. I observed some people moving on gracefully, alighting above the BS, portraying a sense of quiet, determined serenity and confidence while inexorably moving on from one success to another on an ever upward curve. They are defining themselves, instead of allowing others, including family and friends, to define them. They portray an inner strength that is noticeable and commands respect.
That’s where I am striving to get at. I think we must refuse to allow unfortunate life events to define us. Sometimes, I think that there is a lot to be said for the motto, “Sh!t happens”, refuse to be defined by, and associated with, other people’s Sh!t, and just soar gracefully over it and move on.
Hi Henry,
Your story is indeed another what.just.happened.to.my.life.in.an.instant nonsensical but real happenings. What happened to you sucks. It’s nonsensical. I am learning that there is no way to reason with nonsense. There is no understanding, only accepting that even when something makes no sense at all, it can and does happen and is real. Accepting this belief that nonsense is real means completely changing how I think. In my world, I have believed that for him to have treated me so horribly in the end (by completely disengaging) I must:
a. Deserve it somehow. (but I didn’t DO anything to provoke it, so doesn’t fit. I put in 100% good effort)
b. Be wrong about his character. (but he consistently treated me well with kindness, attention, and positive comments so it’s confusing because I knew him as the best guy ever)
c. Be so messed up that I made up a relationship that never really existed. (but I’m not crazy, even though he tried to minimize, lie, and forget when I tried the ‘BUT you SAID… [insert list of all the things he told me here]’.
d. Have no idea what was real, what was fake, who he was, what he wanted, what he meant. (burn of the aftermath)
e. Just be a sore loser that didn’t get her way with a bruised ego. (then why do I feel such deep sadness and grief STILL?)
You’ve said it, two people have to want it. And I have no idea how one person, unprovoked and with no warning, just QUITS. Again, nonsense is real. How do we explain? Well, the easy and honest answer is “I don’t really know what happened. The other person quit.” I’d rather step in shit than feel the way I do. I can get rid of shit, but I can’t yet shake the BGE trauma hold that’s messed with my thinking. It’s hard for me to believe that he is somehow disordered, pathological, whatever… because for almost six months I saw nothing but kind and wonderful. No hot and cold. Just goodness. When I read what you wrote, my immediate reaction is that you married a messed up woman.
Not sure where to fit this in – sorry if it’s out of order.
@Hans- above comment was for you.
@Henry- you wouldn’t have ended up on BR had you not experienced what you did.
I’m sorry I mixed your names up! Maybe a symptom of not sleeping a full night in 15 months. Not even once.
Wow! So very well written and expressed – thank you for articulating eloquently what I feel. And yes, we do end up here after the damage is done don’t we. If only I’d found this before I found him.
Picky, picky, picky! I wonder who didn’t meet their nearly nonexistent standards.
Once I suspected I was in a dicey long distance relationship, I started journaling every night and I described everything good or bad that happened between us. Within two months I could connect dots and see patterns and it made me see what a conniving piece of shut she was.
I love this idea! I was in a long distance relationship too until recently when I flushed him for saying “I don’t talk about my work.’ WHAT the FECK??? I started journaling too just to keep track of his ‘claims’ non of which I ever saw proof of. Great to keep reviewing it over the weeks all as it unfolds and then you get the honest truth rather than a half baked rose tinted memory of what happened.
“shut” was a typo…I’m sure you knew what I meant. 🙂
I recently came to conclusions like this myself. It was a two part process. First, I realized that I had been living my life valueing what I was able to produce or accomplish in terms of external things like education and work over things like mental health and community involvement. It really helped to read here about values and looking for a partner with similar values. I realized the need to figure out what my values are and start living accordingly.
Not long ago I started getting involved with a person that is exceptional in his field of work and well known in my community. I totally put on my blinders at first dazzled by his expertise. I thought he must be ok because he did exceptional work, had cool hobbies and knew a lot of people. I kept looking past warning signs and red flags until I slowed down and forced myself to stop. What I saw when I took off the blinders made me sad, he’s one of (if not the) most emotionally immature people I’ve ever known. I saw that I had mistaken his popularity as proof he was a nice person to know. I also realized all these people were acquaintances and that he only let troubled types (myself included) close. I saw how easily I let myself be cast as troubled (even encouraging it) and how invested he seemed to be in me being troubled.
I see how my values have been shaped by my up bringing where I have a father that always prioritized his career achievements over values like kindness, care and respect for the thoughts and feelings of his wife and children. I see how I was trying to redeem him by taking the only thing he got right (career success) and giving that more value than it actually possesses. I even convinced myself the men I was attracted to weren’t like him because they weren’t invested in monetary success but they were all attractive to me based on how I valued their work ethic.
Now I’m released! From being a shallow version of myself and seeking a shallow partner. I’ve got a lot of work to do because I think the part where I think of myself as troubled still needs some serious unpacking but I’m on my way…
Good luck to us all 😉
Oola, good for you for developing your insight and discernment .. many never do, and are content to go through life on automatic pilot. It`s great to have this community fortunate to benefit from Natalie`s wisdom and strength, and that of each other.
Oola, you might find reading a classic work on what makes marriages (and relationships) work interesting. It’s by John Gottman. What you said about investing into “us” vs “me” and jobs vs intimacy is discussed in this book and how this is in fact a poor investment for men too. It’s an exceptionally well researched study about what makes people stay happily married.
I’d like to add my two cents about seeing community involvement as a sign of some kind of value system in place. I have myself been involved with a man who gives part of his wage to various charities, helps people on the street and etc etc and he does it purely as a means of image management that helps him in business and with women. Once you get to know him, you can see that this means that being involved in a community, all those talks, money and even physical help is a place for him to get ego strokes and to show off and that he sees people he’s helping as inanimate objects which are just like a ladder that he sets to help him get higher.
Even here on BR, you can read numerous examples of people who are deeply involved in community work and are still grade A ass clowns. There were women who talked about being conned by a priest, for crying out loud 🙂
I feel like only time shows who’s worth your salt and your time.
Yep, I’ve been taken in by one of these guys. He’s VERY good at it. He’s an estate attorney, insurance agent and does financial advisory stuff. Super religious – in theory. He has the whole image management down to a science. Total gentleman, intelligent, generous, charitable, takes kids under privileged kids on field trips. He keeps people at a safe distance so he’s not discovered. He’s learned how to fake empathy/compassion. He moves from group to group winning them over to get their business and when that source is tapped out, he moves to another group – but keeps his foot in the door with the old ones. He targets vulnerable people and keeps them hooked with his ‘kindness’, which is really him just using them/getting their money and referalls.
It took me 25 years to figure it out (I didn’t interact with him that often). I also think a part of me didn’t want to see it/believe it. I made a lot of assumptions about that guy…I was SO wrong on so many counts.
Predator.
Excellent realizations, Oola!
I recently was dumped by a man I have been seeing for the past 16 months. He is a single father, and has been using his son as a shield and as an excuse for any and all failure to jump into the relationship wholeheartedly rather than having one foot half-out the door most of the time. He has commitment phobia. He does not want to get married, does not want to live together, does not want kids, etc. I thought I could fix/change him (Florence Nightingale syndrome again). Anyway, I tolerated a lot of bad behavior from him and his 11 year old son. He used to use his son in order to justify cancelling on me (not emergency situations, he just cancelled last-minute on me, after having planned a day out with me and his son, he just preferred to do other things with his son, and his friends, despite having booked my time for that — that’s just one example). Anyway, I let it slide many many times. I didn’t want to discipline his kid, etc. He made it clear it was not my place. I felt like I was walking on eggshells. That I was giving and giving and giving and getting little in return. And then, I kinda burst out. In one fell swoop. Or actually, 5 or 6. We had 6 major fights in 3 weeks. We nearly broke up several times, but reconciled. One fight that nearly got out of hand was in front of his kid, and I banged my hand against the table, etc. I was so stressed , from work and the “relationship”, and I was losing it, and he was nowhere to be found, kept taking me for granted, disrespecting me, letting his kid and his friends disrespect me, etc. So then, immediately, he used that against me. He’s like, you turned out to be someone completely different than what I had imagined you to be. I would never have imagined that you would fight with me, etc. But sometimes, just because we took a person for granted and she was too nice/naive/patient/lacking in boundaries, etc. does not mean that she was wearing a mask all that time, to hide her true colors. I never changed. I was the same person. It’s just that he brought out the worst in me!!! The stress got to my head eventually. I was a nervous wreck! I couldn’t stop bursting into tears at the least upsetting thing that happened during my day (not even things related to him)..
good riddance ! give yourself time and space for perspective, and inner growth [ strength]. he dumped you ? he did you a huge favor .. don`t look back !
Yeah, there were more red flags in that casual relationship than there were in the Soviet Union at some point during communist rule… lol. But I also feel like I have to own up to my part in it. I did say a lot of nasty stuff, about his parenting style, his kid not respecting me, his ex, etc. But he did give me many reasons to get there, and I had talked to him several times about how I felt like he didn’t appreciate me, etc. Instead of paying attention, he did the exact opposite. He arranged his schedule more around that of his ex, etc. Anyway, I should have realized we were fundamentally incompatible, in a sense, and that he was emotionally unavailable and was using his kid as an excuse. But I did the same as before, ignored all the red flags and the fact that I was unhappy because my needs were not being satisfied and I wasn’t being respected. I became the butt of jokes, and when he broke up, I begged, pleaded, apologized, etc. You name it, I did it. He was adamant. He was so cold-hearted. He didn’t even own up to his part in things getting to where they were. At the end of the day, though, I will come out the better out of this, because in contrast to him, I owned up to my part in it, and I did real reflection on the whole relationship. Whereas what he called “reflection” is basically him repeating the same thing over and over again “this can’t work, I can’t do it, my son didn’t have a good summer because of you,” etc. At the end of the day, it was an appropriate excuse for him to eject. But, he made it look like I was the crazy one, he told his friends, and he said these things to his friends (in my absence) in front of his 11 year old kid. And then he accuses ME of ruining things, because I acted crazy, and that he wasn’t expecting that I was a completely different person. he also decided it was convenient to assume that 1 month of stress and nervous breakdown was “who” I was, in contrast to 15 months of being an awesome, patient, generous, etc. woman who stuck by him despite all. Just to point out that sometimes people claiming you turned out to be totally different than the mask you had initially put on, is just an excuse. I told him that yes, I have changed, in the sense that we all evolve in relationships, and that I had changed because I was more at ease with him and telling him about my needs, whereas in the past, with him or with others, I never expressed those needs (yay me, a bit of improvement!!! I am proud of myself even though the better course of action was to also walk away from the relationship if it was not satisfying my needs). But he refused to acknowledge that I was not crazy, etc. He said he could not take the risk. He even changed his router password (which I had installed, by the way)…. used me and then threw me out, basically, when the going got a bit rough. At the end of the day, though, he has issues that he is afraid to face. Issues that date back to his childhood and how his dad treated him. He is projecting that onto his relationship with his child, and is letting that ruin his relationships with women, instead of working on/ facing his insecurities/fears/issues…. Oh well…
@Lara. Thanks for posting this. It was very helpful. It is very difficult to be free of one’s past, and the freer you become the more you realise how many people are actually entangled in it. You did very well to push it until it broke in the last month, at least now you know the truth. He was just using you and everybody else in his private play where he has the lead role of the Victim. This is very sad, especially for his son. You at least are out now. Best wishes for your post breakup recovery, V.
@Lara,
I am sorry you’ve been through this. I recognize the agony very well. And the mind effery, oh the mind effery! If only you had less boundaries and put up with more disrespect then…then..then what? Then he’d have turned into a loving considerate partner? Why did you have to want respect and equality and effort in a relationship, Lara? How selfish of you! (NOT).
This man is immature and selfish and very toxic. You got lucky you got out so fast. Do not go back. He’ll never get better. He’ll never change. His words scream “But I don’t want to be held responsible! Why do I have to do that?! I don’t like it”.
But you yourself need to be responsible for you, Lara. For your time and you happiness. Gosh, I am sorry this is becoming a rant. It’s just your story and the emotion reminded me so much about what I’ve been through. One of the best advice I read about being stuck in these kind of EU relationships is that “Your relationship isn’t just costing you happiness, its costing you the ability to find a better one”. Get out, get well, and get treated better.
Thank you, ladies (and gents?) for the supportive and encouraging words. It means a lot! I have made a few mistakes that I am not proud of, one of which was staying too long in the relationship when I knew it was clearly not meeting my standards / a good fit. @Why, funny thing, he ACTUALLY said exactly what you mentioned: “I don’t like responsibility. I don’t want responsibility. I already have my kid and it’s already too much responsibility” (he didn’t want his kid when his ex got pregnant, even claims she did it on purpose, knowing full well he didn’t want a kid). He claimed that his fear of responsibility is due to the fact that, when he was a kid, and his dad cheated on his mom and then left them (he then got partial custody but was largely not present even on his custody days), his mother put all the responsibilities of the household on his shoulders, when he was a kid. Including supposedly taking care of his sister (who is only a year younger!!). I am not sure I buy it. I don’t know what his reasons are (personal issues from his childhood or not), but to me it seems a convenient excuse. It seems it was his way of saying, he wanted something “light”, something casual. Because if the going gets tough, and he is supposed to reciprocate feelings, behaviors, etc., (because that is the way it would work in a healthy relationship, where both sides would do things because they WANT to do them and not because they HAVE to do them — something that he does not seem to understand), then he wants to bail. He wanted to avoid that situation with me. He wanted to keep me, but for his own purposes/agenda, not because he wanted a full-on relationship with me. I brought up the topic of FWB several times, and said I am not into casual relationships or FWB. He got horribly upset/offended by the mere mention of it, claiming that he wanted a real relationship. At the beginning, for the first year or so, when I was ignoring all the red flags and his bad behaviors (as well as red flags in his friends’ behaviors that I should’ve read as indication that he may have told them something), not to mention his son’s horrible attitude towards me (which did not improve much in the year and a half that we were dating), he kept saying, with you it’s different, with you it’s simple, it’s without headaches, it’s so nice. It was never like this with any of my past gfs…. I guess I took the breadcrumb of a compliment and ran with it. 🙁 It was actually a red flag, because while it was “simple” for him because my needs were never met and there was no effort on his part, nor any discussions on my part about my needs, I was horribly upset, stressed, felt unappreciated, undervalued, etc. It brought to the fore all my insecurities: fears of abandonment, overcompensation to avoid abandonment, etc. I worked overtime to keep them even happier. Dishing out money, effort, everything, to keep them happy. Ignoring the fact that *I* wasn’t happy. Until things boiled over and I could no longer take it, partly because of stress from work and the fact that his, his son’s, and his friends’ behavior became more and more disrespectful, blatantly so. It was now bordering on the abusive. I finally confronted him. When I did, we had 6-7 fights, during which I thought I was ready to walk out, but didn’t have the emotional strength to follow through. He also bailed, right after the first fight, I would say. At least emotionally. I admit that I didn’t handle it in the ideal way. I went overboard with the anger. I lost control (nothing too crazy, of course, just some yelling, mostly arguments). I felt bad, and he managed to make me feel even worse, by using that against me, to say I was out of control, I was crazy, etc. He started acting really cold and withholding love and support, knowing full well I was having a rough time because I was teaching and had classes to prepare, and students to appear in front of. I had to cancel a few of my classes, because I could not stop bursting into tears. There was no way I could go and teach. I was a wreck. And he kept shifting all the blame on me. Kept accusing me of traumatizing his son. Kept accusing me of ruining his son’s summer (because whether his son gets to be driven around and entertained by his father for 24 hrs a day, for weeks and weeks, because he is unable to entertain himself for 2 minutes, is more important than the sanity and health of your gf). This is an 11 year old who cannot entertain himself for 2 minutes. Apparently I ruined their summer because I wouldn’t let them enjoy some “alone” time….. with his female best friend, her bf, and the rest of his friends. Some “alone” time. His idea of “alone” time is time spent away from the gf, in the company of just about anyone and everyone. Like I was this horrible, plague-infested person who was not fun to be around. It also signalled to me that someone who felt he needed “alone” time this often, while hanging out with everyone else, was not a good candidate for something like, living together, getting married, etc. I did try, though. I wanted to change him. To try to fit a square peg into a round hole. You should never try changing anyone. So eventually, on his 4th attempt to break up with me, I said, fine, go for it. There was no fight left in me, and this man was really hurting me, emotionally and even physically. And by physically I mean, I was getting literally sick, because he kept me on an emotional rollercoaster, acting cold one minute, acting super hot the other, even within the span of 2 minutes. I was feeling nauseous all the time. My blood pressure was through the roof. I could no longer deal with it. I needed out. So I took it when he gave it to me. I am glad. I am relieved. I still feel a great sense of loss, and heartache. It went downhill so fast. Or maybe it didn’t, because the signs were there, it’s just that I was choosing to ignore them. But he was very passive aggressive towards the end, too. I had urged him for the past year to get his passport so we could travel. He didn’t, until a few days before the breakup. I thought he was finally getting his act together and that he did it for me, so we could travel together. He says, no, I did it for myself. I might go on a trip with my son, not with you. I gave this man all that I could. I loved his son, too. And his friends. I gave them all the love, caring that I was capable of giving. And it still was not enough. 🙁 They are the most ungrateful people I have ever met. I can say that this was a more difficult breakup than the one with my emotionally manipulative, narcissistic AC who kept boomeranging. This was worse. I don’t know whether he is a narcissist, deeply disturbed/messed up, or simply an AC. I don’t know anymore. 🙁
“he ACTUALLY said exactly what you mentioned: “I don’t like responsibility. I don’t want responsibility…He claimed that his fear of responsibility is due to the fact that, when he was a kid, and his dad cheated on his mom and then left them (he then got partial custody but was largely not present even on his custody days), his mother put all the responsibilities of the household on his shoulders, when he was a kid. Including supposedly taking care of his sister (who is only a year younger!!). I am not sure I buy it. I don’t know what his reasons are (personal issues from his childhood or not), but to me it seems a convenient excuse.”
Lara, whilst all of the above is probably true, you do better for yourself by re-focussing the question of responsibility towards yourself. Do you ‘*like*’ self responsibility and if your answer is yes then what can you do to covert the idea/this ‘liking of’ to meaningful, self respecting thought and action? There is no finer example of this on recent pages here than reader Mary Jane’s leaving if her deceitful (ex)fiance in the same moment of her awareness. I recommend her comments -they are what real self respect and esteem look and feel like.
How are you taking responsibility for yourself, for your standards and boundaries and your own emotional well being in relations with others? What action do you take when you detect a flag? Work on esteeming respecting yourself.
Great response, llzzp. I think many of us have our sense of responsibility backward. We are taking responsibility for other people/things and handing over to them (expecting them to take) the responsibility for us. Never works. We have to look at what we are responsible for and have control over – us. That’s it.
Hi lizzp,
Not sure I understand your comment. Are you saying that I need to work on the fact that I did not leave this man the minute I was unhappy? Sure, I let this go on way too long. I realize that I should have seen the accumulation of red flags and bailed much much sooner. However, I dismissed them because he managed to very skillfully present it as something that many blended families might go through, the challenges of managing the triangle of kid-dad-gf and finding enough time for all, and keeping everyone happy, etc. I had never dated a man who had a kid, so I didn’t know what was normal and what was not in these situations. I let it play out, thinking and hoping that it would change, that he was making the effort to find the time for me, etc. It only went from bad to worse, though. In fact, at the beginning, he WAS making the effort. And throughout, until the month of April (when his child’s mother had her third child with her husband), he was chasing after me as soon as I took a step back to rethink the whole thing. His behavior changed to the worse, and my expectations became higher and higher, as I realized that my basic needs were not being met. In the past, I would not even have confronted a man like I did with him. So yes, it’s not ideal, but it’s baby steps. Getting there! Self-esteem and self-respect is a big issue, indeed, for me. Need to work on it. But mostly, I think it stems from the fact that I see myself at a dead-end career-wise and not sure where I’m gonna end up. 🙁 Very stressful, financially and self-esteem-wise.. It affects how I look at myself. I don’t see myself as a catch, as someone who deserves better, because, well, I don’t feel like I have amounted to much. I don’t have a stable/real job. Sucks. I have applied to jobs and have been called for interviews but not gotten the job, even the ones that I felt I was a great fit for, and where I aced the interview. Anyway.
This is something I definitely have been thinking about lately, particularly after doing a lot of internal work.
So, I have been guilty of taking part in situations in which the ACs took a U-turn with time passing. I think in my case, most of the guilt was in my selective sight/hearing. I knew it, but I only listened to the part I wanted.
It’s funny how someone can sound charming, intelligent, well-resolved, and all of that, and within months, show the true colors. In my first case, the AC was deeply wounded by issues with mental health and as the Florence that I was… love conquers it all, right? It wasn’t that the red flags weren’t there (in fact, she could exactly like the Washington Monument, her in the middle with all the flags around), but I just didn’t see — ok, I just ignored, because I knew how bad it was. Then reality comes, because it always does, and then it looked like a U-turn when the case is that it was always there. Some time later when I confronted a similar situation (and now aware of my Florencing) I already saw that coming from far away and opted out. At least I learned a lot from that situation.
Now, the other AC has none of those issues, she’s very social, has thousands of acquaintances, and totally the opposite. In our early interactions, she seemed very sure of herself, non-judgmental, interesting, nice, down on Earth, etc. A year later, I can barely remember what that was like… as just a couple weeks ago she pretty much stated we are all inferior and she just uses us to pass her time. Again, true colors. However, as much as I know she DID pretend to be what she wasn’t in order to be socially accepted, if I look in hindsight, I should be able to see that coming. People can pretend as much as they want, but there are always little things they say/do that go against the whole mask.
I think deep down, most of us know what we are getting into, or at least have some doubts cross our mind. But in the end, it might be that we have a serious case of just lying to ourselves.
Since I’ve started ‘waking up’ and been working on staying awake, I’m recognizing that I often make faulty assumptions about people based on my associations with the particular characteristics/affiliations. One of the big ones is thinking people were pre-vetted by others and deemed *good*, so I must be wrong or being too hard on them/judgmental, whatever, for having my doubts about them or feeling uncomfortable with them. I assume that I must be wrong. I screw myself over when I do that – I’m being disloyal to me, not trusting me and my judgement – substituting their judgement for mine. This is not in my best interest. I’m betraying myself when I do that and I’m setting myself up to be hurt/dissapointed. Time and time again I have recognized later that I was right and had good reason not to trust them and the people that hung around them didn’t have better judgement than me. They were still there for their own reasons that have nothing to do with me and obviously don’t align with mine.
I’m starting to unravel the old beliefs and the self defeating thoughts/behaviors connected with them and it’s so exciting and encouraging. I do have power (but only over myself). I do have choices (more choices than I once believed). I am worthy. I am worthy of love and consideration. I matter. I am loveable. It’s not my fault. I am worthy of loyalty. I am enough just as I am. I am safe. It’s safe to protect myself. Love isn’t something that has to be earned/worked for.
“I’m recognizing that I often make faulty assumptions about people based on my associations with the particular characteristics/affiliations.”
Very well said!! I do this too, and did it with the single dad I was dating (he broke up, see story above). I associated with him all the traits and characteristics that I normally would associate parents (single or otherwise): responsible, loving, committed, etc. He was there for his son, after all, and nothing was more beautiful to see than that. However, I soon started realizing that it was much more than that. He was using his son to hide away from life, from reality, from facing ugly truths about himself, his ability to have mature, normal relationships with mature, loving women. I even attributed it to his insecurities about not wanting to be like his father (his words, not mine). But I realized that if these were insecurities, he ought to have realized it at some point (I told him this point blank) and worked on it. I realized, eventually, that he was using these insecurities as an excuse to stick to his comfort zone, use his 11 year old son as an emotional support, etc. He even told his son about how nasty I was, when we had a fight (not in front of his son). He even let his friends (who where there at the time) badmouth me. Heck, he probably did it too, so why wouldn’t his friends? One of his friends even told him and his kid that if he didn’t go and break up with me, and if I came back, he would leave and refuse to talk to me. Which is what happened, when we reconciled (after one of our fights). His son told him that if he could leave, he would’ve gone with that friend…. Imagine that. Anyway, just to say that often, especially in the case of single parents, we assume that the stepmother/stepfather is the evil person trying to drive a wedge between parent and child, is jealous of the child, etc. That’s not always true. Probably mostly untrue. He had told me that all his exes had been jealous of his child and had mistreated him. Probably that statement itself was a red flag I should’ve listened to, because he then attached that same behavioral trait to me, as soon as I said something negative about his child’s behavior (in the most diplomatic way). I then told him that it seems to me that it’s convenient for him to believe that all the women he dates are jealous of his child.
I used to buy into the single dad assumption too! I projected all these kind, loving, supportive qualities onto them that they didn’t have or if they did, but didn’t offer them to me consistently. It’s great you spotted him and stuck up for yourself. He did you a big favor. It might not feel that way right now, it hurts to be rejected, even sometimes by someone we don’t like very much! Hang in there! I hope he doesn’t come back around…he just might. He won’t have changed of course, but he might pretend to have seen the light.
Veracity, I love this thought about pre-vetted people. Also rings true for me. Like you become a part of a new group and you like everyone there and you all have common interests and so I assume that in order to become a member of this group every person HAS TO BE a decent human being. Erm, no.
The epitome of this was when one such member of a new group came out to be a physically abusive person (only towards women of course) and once I got out and told some details to the other member of the group their answer was “You must have done something to make him that angry”. Yes, because that’s exactly how abuse works.
Anyway, on a brighter note, you get a bigger picture of the whole group too when something like this happens.
Why, “The epitome of this was when one such member of a new group came out to be a physically abusive person (only towards women of course) and once I got out and told some details to the other member of the group their answer was “You must have done something to make him that angry”. Yes, because that’s exactly how abuse works.”
Absolutely. Makes no sense when you think about it! I’ve had similar experiences with recognizing unhealthy people, not the physically abusive bit. What a creep. I’ve come to recognize that, for whatever reason, they choose not to see it, it is threatening to their status quo, so someone has to be blamed, so it’s you. Lets them protect their ‘truth’. I’m probably swinging too far to the other side these days in my boundaries, but I just stay away from the group when I see unhealthy people and/or if a group ‘leader’ is an AC.
“Anyway, on a brighter note, you get a bigger picture of the whole group too when something like this happens.”
In the same vein I’ve discovered a lot of these folks collect ‘broken’ people/people with low self-esteem to follow them. People that look up to them/won’t question them. No thanks.
@Why. Interesting observation. I too have found that to be true. Do you have any suggestion for a book on group dynamics of abuse? I have read the interesting Stalking The Soul, by Marie-France Hirigoyen, but would like to know more. Thanks in any case, V.
Ladies, help. And trigger warning. The other night I invited a long-time friend who has been ‘in love’ with me for years to stay over. This is someone I trusted. Someone I thought I was initiating something loving and safe with.
I said many many times that I did not want penetration to happen, that I just wanted to fool around. Yet next thing I know, he’s on top of me; I’m still thinking: “He’s not going to –” and then he did. No condom. No asking.
It hurt, so I asked him to stop. I said, you didn’t ask, you didn’t think about a condom? He didn’t say anything. And then, as if trying to ignore what had just happened, I told him he could try again. It still hurt. After he realized it hurt me, he seemed genuinely concerned and stopped. We continued to fool around with me confirming he wouldn’t try to be inside me anymore, which he agreed to, and we proceeded.
It’s now two days later and I am suddenly hit with a wave of not-good-feeling, of finally acknowledging how I feel about what happened. I don’t know what to do. If I talk to him about it, which I will do eventually, he’ll no doubt apologize. But I don’t know if I can undo how I feel. Help me process, please.
@Magnolia. I have always wondered, and you don’t really have to answer here, were there any incidents of sexual abuse in your childhood/young teens. V.
Maybe he was confused, I think it would be unusual for a man to ask if they can have sex it would almost kill the moment. Granted he should not have made attempts if you had already made clear it’s not what you wanted but maybe it wasn’t clear if you were doing everything else but that. Do you mind me asking what you were hoping to gain from ‘fooling around’?
Yoyo, I have to interrupt here. It is NOT unusual for a man to ask if they can have sex with a woman. It’s called consent and it is a PREREQUISITE for it. If it was not clear to him then he should have asked.
I am sorry to sound harsh here but I’ve seen so many rape victims who did not realise themselves that what happened was not okay.
A lack of “NO” is NOT consent.
A “maybe” is not consent.
A drunk person cannot give their consent.
Only an energetic YES when asked about whether someone wants to have sex is CONSENT. In all other situations when there’s doubt, we’ve got to use our mouth to ask for clarification.
V. – yes. Yoyo: I wanted a sexual experience, period. I said upfront that I didn’t want to have sex, more than once. That I was offering some naked times and touching but did not want to have a penis in me. I think I even said it just like that. This guy knows a bit of my history and I said that I wanted to have a safe experience with ‘affirmative consent’ and that he seemed like someone I could do that with and who would be okay with my boundaries. I made it clear that I did not mean to tease, I just wanted to play but not fuck. This is why, even when he was in a position to put it in, I did not think he would because I had said so many different ways that I had no intention of doing that. When I suddenly realized he had just penetrated me, I … froze, I guess.
Magnolia this one is a toughy. for me it would be a deal breaker. The fact that he ignored your wishes shows that he is not afraid of blowing it with you. and for me I just wouldn’t want to entertain a guy who’s clearly not afraid of blowing things with me.he put his pleasure in what he wanted above and beyond what you asked for.I will say however that as an adult woman we have to be mindful not to as I would like to say put our self in the position to be put in the position. and the frolicking around in the bed naked does just that. its not like middle or high school. A grown man is going to want to go all the way.
@Magnolia and NML. I see that there’s a bit of an uncomfortable situation in the comments below but I haven’t really followed and hopefully won’t touch the issue at hand with my comment.
Magnolia, you talked to a rape crisis? That is great! The reason I went straight to asking what seemed to me the core of the situation is because it happened to me too, but I was unaware of my history of sexual abuse at the time, and the feelings that were brought up by the ‘accidental’ intercourse were overwhelming and sent me spiralling down for quite a few months, that is until I remembered the original connection.
I didn’t know if you knew and was a bit worried about that, but I see that you are so aware and much more forward on this process that the roles should be reversed – maybe I will ask for advice from you on this matter!
Best wishes, V.
@Magnolia, I dont know your history so take everything I say with a pinch of salt. The problem is twofold; he didn’t check with you though you had told him repeatedly what was on the table, and second, no protection. Thats out of line on both counts. I am not sure why this guy did what he did.
Whether you want to give him the benefit of the doubt – only you can know. But either way, he’s not the guy for whatever you had in mind. So my only advice is – dont turn to him for validation of your feelings. You’re not sure yet how you feel, and he is not the person to figure this out with. If you have a history of abuse or depression or whatever, then you should consider short term counseling.
To me it sounds like an experience gone wrong and now you’re blaming yourself and him perhaps. An apology from him is not going to fix it. You should talk to him when you know what you feel and what you want out of the conversation; even if you know what you want from a conversation, it doesnt mean you will get it, but at least theres an agenda. Otherwise a conversation could decline into blame and arguments.
I suggest counseling; a calm safe place where you can figure out what happened. And I suggest no more intimacy with him – you’re not on the same page. I would avoid this guy.
Wow. It’s very hard, and makes me want to reevaluate the helpfulness of this site, to come here and hear that women are going to be all “you shouldn’t have put yourself in that situation” and “men are going to want what they want.” How many of us are not having sex for years (me) because they have had unsavoury experiences and now want to make sure the person they are with is safe and respectful? This ISN’T high school, I shouldn’t have to worry that some boy is going to blame his hormones and say he couldn’t help it. This was a negotiated interaction between two adults.
If I had said, I told him no anal, and he suddenly and without warning put it in my butt anyway, you all would be furious. Well, I told him no vaginal, and he did it anyway.
Adult sex is, should be, about communication and consent and fun. And works when there is trust. He violated our agreement, and now I have to deal with processing that I had intercourse without my consent.
I have talked to the rape crisis centre and they were very helpful. I can get over this as quickly or as slowly as I want, but the main thing is that I’m not minimizing it, pretending it didn’t happen or blaming myself. I have talked to my best friend, who told me a story about her husband, who when they were first getting together, didn’t have intercourse with her when she was begging for it because they were drunk and he knew that a situation like that means she wasn’t giving her full consent.
If I process it by being like, oh, he got swept away, then I bust my own boundaries and act like my side in a conversation doesn’t matter. It matters. He heard and agreed to no-penises-in-vaginas at least three times before we even took any clothes off.
If all I ever wanted to do for the rest of my life was snuggle naked with someone, that would be fine if I found someone who was okay with it. If all I wanted to do was get tied down and butt-rammed with no kissing for the rest of my life, that too would be okay as long as I found someone who respected my boundaries. And of course I have to respect the ‘no’ of whoever I’m with.
Personally, I want to get to the point with someone where I can have very free, spontaneous and uninhibited sex (but I’ll still have boundaries – no choking, for example). This was a first-time interaction after years of friendship and it was very freeing to approach sex as something to talk about and then share together, with a lot of conversation.
To bring this conversation around to the subject of the post, it’s like I assumed that because we’d been friends for years, and because we talked, and because he knew some of my history, that he would be able to respect our agreement. To find out that he did not is a HUGE bit of information that goes contrary to my best guesses about him.
The BR post I’m finding most helpful right now is this one: We can’t always recognise potential issues – it’s just important to have an active response as they unfold. My friend ‘unfolded’ in this new situation and I am registering this new information.
Goodness – I’m actually really taken aback by these comments. When I read Magnolia’s comment last night I didn’t know what to say as I felt so sorry for her. I thought I’d leave it to women who ‘know’ her a bit better (as I’m new here) or perhaps have more experience in abusive situations than me. I didn’t expect them to have this kind of tone! At the end of the day, Magnolia didn’t give her consent to sex – she says quite clearly in the post that she didn’t. Legally that is rape – it certainly is here in the UK and all over the Western world. She even says the rape crisis centre have been helpful. I guess I now see why it’s so difficult to get convictions from juries in rape cases if the attitude even of some women is ‘Well…you know…you shouldn’t have done this/that/the other. How could he help what he did?’
Just…wow.
Magnolia, you need to put things on a professional basis, meaning, hire a sex therapist. One of my “if I ruled the world” dreams is to be able to go to a brothel that caters to women. Where women go and enjoy all the receiving of sexual pleasure – a one-sided deal with the woman getting all the good stuff and doing absolutely nothing but receiving just what she wants the way she wants it.
But to expect a man who is into you to get himself all aroused and be next to your naked body and not try to take things further is emotionally immature thinking. I, too, thought “high school”. I mean, we are taught to avoid these situations because they can turn ugly, once a man is close to peaking, and you are in a naked body situation, it is asking a lot for him to shut things down, so it’s best to avoid ramping things up. I think it is a positive sign about him that he stopped when you said it was painful, but more on that later.
He agreed to your terms ( I am assuming, because you don’t say that he said “Yes, I agree to your terms.”), so yeah, you can call him on that, but I am sure he thought things might change once you guys got started…it happens all the time. It was just a bad idea all around. To feel violated is to remove your part in creating this fiasco. You were standing on an active train track, the train was barreling toward you, and you jumped off before getting totally run over, but you did get side-swiped. And now you’re thinking the rail line is at fault.
You need to pay someone to do what you need. It’s terrific if you have a friend in your life to do those things with; it’s even better if one’s significant other could be so giving, but my view is that this kind of restraint can only come from someone who is paid to be restrained.
Also, you telling him to “try again” clearly shows you return to people pleasing the second your boundary is crossed. And you see how easily he went ahead with what he wanted? He didn’t say “No, you said you didn’t want to, so I was wrong to try.” Your physical discomfort was the only reason things didn’t progress. You did not think about your safety – no condom. Why did you leave the safety decision up to him? It’s like YOU don’t want to be in charge of YOU.
(sigh!).
Ladies (and that means all who are involved in this side discussion, not just one person), I’m a little uncomfortable with the direction that the comments are taking. Yes, each party needs to take responsibility for their own behaviour in this situation but that doesn’t change the fact that he went ahead without consent after agreeing that he wouldn’t. There are clear boundary issues on both sides but that does not change what he did. He had a hard-on, not a broken leg and stuck in the middle of the road with oncoming traffic. Please stop talking about this man and in fact all men, as if they’re imbeciles once they have a hard-on and that we must handle them like precious objects. Lots of people do not go all the way when in a bed together and many of those are respectful about it. Yes it’s like high school if the last time you only went to a couple of bases was back then but just because you are in a dating or sexual situation with somebody, it doesn’t mean that it must or should lead to sex and that if we do some stuff that we’re obligated to put out. That is wrong. It is bad enough when men talk about this whole leading on carry-on and it’s even worse when women do it. Please don’t shame or blame each other for other people’s behaviour. Let’s get back to compassion, empathy, and team spirit.
I can hear you screaming – “She said NO, Elgie!”. Yes. No means no. I believe that too. I’m not saying “How could he help it.” He clearly had his own agenda.
I think the male was thinking he could change her mind. It’s not like we ladies here at BR aren’t familiar with thinking we will change someone’s mind…right?
This situation is fraught with land mines for two people who are not in a committed union or a long established friendship. It seems to me that this kind of agreement needs to be carefully worked out, and thought about for a while – days at least, and revisited, and reiterated, before acting on it. And friendship isn’t measured in YEARS of being in each other’s orbit, it’s measured by depth of knowledge about each other and many caring acts shown toward each other.
I too have fended off unwanted sexual attention. The first one as a child with a “trusted” family member…my whole body froze so tight from fear that the family member gave up the attempt. The second time I was in my 30’s and I almost broke that former friend’s knees with my kicks – there was force involved on his part. But I don’t think that is what was going on here.
Magnolia, this was a failed experiment. I firmly feel this kind of relating can only exist between really good friends. Your guy sounds like the guy who’s knees I almost broke…I’d known him for 15 years before he attacked me, knew him before, during, and after his marriage, always platonic, thought we were buddies on similar wavelengths, but I did not know him deeply nor did we have a long history of specific caring acts shown toward each other. And I can see someone judging me, saying, “What did you think he wanted” for the events that led up to the attack, but in my mind it went from a non-sexual watch-a-movie-visit to an attack in a split second. I fought him off and have never spoken to him again, and felt a flush of dread once when I ran into him accidentally one night. So I do feel like it is not safe to instigate anything remotely sexual with a man if a full-on encounter is not what you want, and that is my bias.
to add on I wasn’t speaking in accusatory manner when I made my comment.Magnolia was not responsible for this man’s actions. He betrayed her trust plain and simple. I made my particular comment in a for a woman’s own sake / lock the doors and roll up the windows type manner. and not even speaking about magnolias situation in particular because I don’t know the particulars of her situation.but I will say in my opinion this man definitely violated Magnolia. But I do know that grown men trying go all of the way is more of the rule and not the exception in my opinion. and we know that there are more men who violate boundaries and who act as if they don’t have any control over their loins then we care to know. We share stories all the time on this site about them. I think that a lots of guys bank on it just happening and one thing led to another. so they will agree to just “cuddle” with the hopes of one thing led to another and ‘it’ just happening. the same thing with a guy saying just let me put the tip in.just cuddling and just putting the ‘tip’ in is rarely their goal. and this is not to defend men but to say that if this is what we’re choosing to do isn’t it good for us to know? It’s like me saying that people break into houses and cars because they want to steal valuables is not making an excuse for the people who do it. there are guys that would try to have sex any slippery slick slimy way they can using okay we can just cuddle or I promise not to go all the way as pretense. I think this is what the guy in Magnolia situation did. I cosign what Elgie said.
@Magnolia, let’s put this in another way. Say you almost drowned once and are very scared of the water. But you really want to get over it and learn how to swim. You find someone you trust who knows how to swim and you ask that person to come with you into the water while you learn to feel comfortable in it again. You say “whatever you do, don’t put my head under the water.” So you get out there, and you’re splashing around, and he’s helping you, and you’re starting to feel more comfortable – and then he dunks your head under water.
Nice guy? Methinks not.
You nailed it!
Wow, I’m so sorry to hear that happened to you Magnolia!
He clearly crossed your boundaries and violated your trust. Friends shouldn’t do that.
I had a slightly similar situation this year. Went out drinking with a male friend. he said I cold sleep in his bed, him on the couch. I lay down to sleep, 10 minutes later he comes in and starts getting handsy. I jumped up, told him to leave me the hell alone. I was pissed-off but also scared as to what he might do.
He tried to convince me not to leave but I grabbed my stuff and marched out. He followed me down the street still trying to convince me back to his place but I said “NO!”
He wouldn’t even admit to what he was trying to do until I was almost in my car. Tried to act innocent.
As NML has said before “friends don’t try to fuck you” I forgave him about a week later but he ignored me for a few months afterwards. I guess his precious ego couldn’t take the rejection.
He contacted me recently. I ignored it. I’ve now got a policy on no close male friends. It sucks, but I’m just REALLY sick and tired of their boundary busting behavior. Some try to flirt, or tell me they have feelings for me YEARS after we’ve established a friendship. When I tell them no, they can’t take it. It hurts me to lose friends. Deeply.
So I’ve come to the realization that having close male friends will most likely never work for me. Other’s think I’m mean or selfish for taking this stance. But it seems as though it’s a boundary I have to make for myself…
Oh wow, didn’t mean to rant for so long. But point is, Magnolia, I can imagine what you’re going through. We trust our friends to have the best intentions for us. To mean what they say, when they say it. To accept our boundaries and what we have stated numerous times that we want the relationship, or even a particular interaction to be. Whether they are male or female, it shouldn’t matter. When we are violated in some way, by someone we care about, it cuts deep.
I’d also like to add, Magnolia that while I’m not sure what the solution to this is. I DO believe that the most important thing right now is to feel ALL of your feelings in regards to this. Don’t feel guilty for any of them. Don’t question it, just feel it. Feel upset, cry, feel angry. Its all valid.
If it were me though. I’d cut him out of my life forever. But I’m sure you’ll figure out the right thing to do for yourself in time.
I hope you’re being extra kind and compassionate to yourself right now. Sending caring vibes your way >>>>>
@Mary Jane,
It sounds as if your ex-fiancé might have a narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). I recommend checking out pages on narcissistic abuse recovery for insight, help and validation. For example, these ones here:
http://www.letmereach.com
http://www.thenarcissisticpersonality.com
http://www.narcissismfree.com
http://www.lucyrising.com
These pages helped me realize the reasons behind the lies and deception, and it helped me break free from the abuse syndroms (anxiety, shock, helplesness, anger/hate, withdrawl symptoms, ‘analysis paralysis’, obsession, depressive states, C-PTSD…)
Especially Kaleah La Roche’s site and shows on blogtalkradio.com helped me look at and acknowledge my core wounds/childhood wounds and past trauma, walk through the pain and find my path back to self (AND a Higher Self). Dealing with my co-dependency issues
It was a very hard and painful road to take and it took me about 1.5 years to finally heal. But I found out that there was a certain time when releasing the pain much better than staying stuck in “victimhood”. Facing and dealing with my co-dependency issues was also key to getting better (I found a very good local CoDA 12-step-Meeting).
So please believe me when I tell you that there is hope and help out there after narcissistic or, if you prefer, emotional abuse.
Other great sites are lovefraud.com, psychopathsandlove.com and psychopathyawareness.com.
Please don’t be offended by the term ‘psychopaths’ – they come in every size and shapes, and they are excellent con artists so it is very important to be aware of the red flags AND of what attracts us to their mask of charm in the first place.
Good luck & much love from Germany,
Alice
Hi Alice,
Thank you for these websites I will look at them (one I have already read). When I ended my engagement I started reading TONS of material. I was trying to make order out of the chaos. Based on what I have already read I think he suffers from NPD and is a psychopath. So, that term is not offensive. What decent (normal)healthy human being can sit around smiling and acting happy then do something this dirty? He was engaged and trolling dating sites for women. He watched me plan (and he actively participated) a beautiful wedding. He saw the number of other people helping and the major investment that was involved. We were on the phone daily with his Mom talking about the plans and asking her for feedback. Sick. The sicko/pyscho was constantly at my house and going on dates with me. Yet when I went to sleep he was out in the wee hours of the morning at a HOtel. There are some things we can not control. EVER. I would love to shake him and tell him stop your crap-you need to seek professional help. You can not go around treating people like this. It would be futile. This is just who he is.
Not once did he ever have the decency to say please stop planning I changed my mind (I am out cheating and deceiving you). All he had to say was that he was unfit to be MY husband. I would have walked away just like I did when I discovered what he was doing. In the weeks before this I did not have any disagreements with him. There was no tension between us as a couple-so that I could pin point what went wrong.
Over the course of the years we spent together we had disagreements like any couple but they always had a respectful end. Neither of us were disrespectful to each other. He had on a mask for sure. It was covered in snake skin. He wanted to carry on a double life. I am hurt, but so glad that I called it off. You are correct they are excellent con artists. Some damn fool said he out smarted me. No he didn’t. He was in no intelligence contest with me or doing a business deal where he proved to be a more sharp at business dealing. This PSYCHO was up at night doing his dirt. He is a liar and cheat. That is what con artists are. The truth is he didn’t want me to catch him.
@Peanut you have the key to happiness. It is acceptance which is what I strive for daily. You have come to terms with the fact THEY will never change. You see people (your father, grandfather and any AC) for who they are and you have accepted who they are. When you do this their behavior want have that same sting. It no longer has an emotional impact on YOU. Being in a long term relationship like this takes time to heal from especially with the level of deception that was involved.
Right now I have the best thing going for me- HOPE. I have not been robbed of my HOPE for a better day. I have seen major progress in my healing process. I have done this healing primarily alone. No professional support by choice. Family who I have supported morally and financially -didn’t hold my hand or talk me through this. They have great life’s and had no time to hear about my PAIN. So, I never spoke about it. I have read, given myself pep talks and come here to BR for support. I am battling back using my own strength and finding the resources I need to make it daily.
So, Alice I am sending love to you this morning for caring enough to share a positive story of HOPE about your healing with me. It is encouraging to hear that you healed. One day I will be healed too. Say Something we can’t loss HOPE. I am sending you a hug this morning and to everyone else who has been hurt.
MJ
Thanks for posting this.
One of the major battles that I am fighting with myself after a broken marriage is this sense of victimhood.
As you stated, if one has the inner strength and savy to sort oneself out, and then move on, that is the first prize.
And then, following from that, I would add, set high standards and gracefully steer clear of boundary busters in the future.
Alice, Thank you for posting the links. I’ve been working my way through the first one and it has been very informative and helpful. I’m way further along the path than I gave myself credit for according to one of the articles. Yay!
I have a question that has been puzzling me for a while and I’m hoping you or others can help me put the questions to rest or at least somewhat sort through it and propel my understanding/acceptance forward.
I know the labels don’t necessarily matter, but they are helpful in regards to pinpointing exactly what type of person you are dealing with and I’m struggling with that as I think I’ve been running into psychopaths and/or sociopaths. I wonder about this because they aren’t obvious in their arrogance, they actually come across as quiet and humble, but believe, subtly act arrogant/superior. They are dismissive. They are sly with their emotional abuse (well, at least before I became more aware), lots of push/pull. Flattery. Withholding. Blame. Pretend to be helpful while screwing me over. Selfish. Exploitative. I got the impression sometimes that they take pleasure it hurting people – it was either that or they were taking pleasure in the fact that their manipulations seem to be working…either way, cruel.
All of these describe my last boss who was very insecure and flattering when he wanted/needed something from me, distant when he didn’t, and extremely passive aggressive/emotionally abusive when stressed/felt wronged.
He offered a very weak carrot at the end to stay on part time. He didn’t have anything concrete…maybe a day or two (he hadn’t talked it over with management/HR). When I pushed him for details he was ambiguous. Then he said the department would be expanding so it could lead to a full time position… in maybe a year. (Future faking) It seemed like a ploy to keep me there a few more weeks to cover gaps – which served him, not me. I declined and left when I intended to/originally planned. The day I left (after he passive aggressively put off the last batch of work I needed to produce while I was there to the last minute) he offered a reference and that he was going to keep me in mind for future positions. Which seem very kind and supportive…BUT, I don’t/can’t trust what he would say to a future company and I think it’s his way of keeping me ‘hooked’/thinking he’s a nice guy after all. Total mind f$%^ury.
Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
Any insights would be helpful. I’ve looked at and began addressing how I am contributing to these situations (overly helpful, overly empathetic, etc), and would like to get a better sense of what kind of disorder this is to aid in identification/acceptance/healing.
Veracity, I would like to throw my hat in the ring here. In my humble opinion and I can’t prove this, but I think that people in general have taken a turn for the worst. In general of course because there are some beautiful spirits out here still. In particular, I believe that there are just a lot of men out here who don’t like/hate women. the craziest thing is that these men who are misogynist, they chase after and sleep with the most women. is the scary thing to think that the realm of love sex and relationships which should be used to share and give love and the highest order, if used by these misogynist to use abuse humiliate and degrade women. They actually use the closeness and what women would think is a actual relationship as a venue to exact their aggression hatred and revenge or whatever on women. and I also think that there are just a lot of the week it misogynist 8 narcissistic man out here en the . They just don’t abuse women but they will use in abuse each other wind given the chance.. they like the services as I like to call them that women provide to them but they don’t care for the women themselves. I get the sons of it so much so that is just a type of energy the lookout for in any guy that I’m dealing with that any level.it’s all about them and there in game whatever it is even his perceived niceness to you there is a agenda to that.
in my opinion there is a lot of sociopathy, psychopathy, and narcissism running rampant.
ljsrmissy, I would agree with you that people, in general, have taken a turn for the worst. I think we are getting less and less connected/aware of each others humanity. They have their agenda and will stop at nothing to advance it. I also think there are lots of wonderful people out there too as I would imagine you do too.
I think given our histories, many of us, (I know me, for sure) attract these guys that hate women. I know my father hated women. He probably didn’t know it, but he did. I think my mother did too.
Great description of them and their MO. The services women (people) provide…ouch…yes, painfully resonate. We are clearly being used and exploited with these people. They use the fact that we care against us.
I’m becoming more and more aware of the energy and less willing to buy into it and to give them the benefit of the doubt. The biggest hurdle to this has been my empathetic guilt.
Magnolia,
I am so sorry about what happened to you!
It’s awful. Really plain awful behavior on his part.
I can relate as I have had similar experiences and it was extremely conflicting for me. And it took me a while to digest and I felt quite broken for a while. You have great insight so I hope that will help you heal and when it gets too much to handle please talk to a therapist. It always helped me sorting it out. I have been with much more men that acted like they couldn’t control themselves than with men who could- it’s very unfortunate.
I am with a man right now who always checks back with me verbal and/or nonverbal if I’m okay with what we are doing, so what should be the norm (basic RESPECT and CARE)sadly I’m experiencing as quite uncommon.
It feels very normal and healthy and that is my guide.
I hope you feel better soon!
Hugs!!
Unfolding
P.S.as always Natalie’s response is putting it into perspective
Thank you, everyone, for your comments. He called wondering why I wasn’t answering texts/messages, so I called back and said that though I had acted as though I was okay with what happened, I wasn’t. He apologized but when he started to try to explain I said I wasn’t looking to hear explanations I just wanted to let him know why I am backing off and wouldn’t be in touch. He has since sent a few long texts apologizing, first trying to defend, then taking responsibility and saying he was wrong, and declaring his love for me, would never want to hurt me, etc.
It’s tempting to listen to the words, ignore his actions and return to engaging with him via some long tortuous conversation where he promises never to do that again. I mean, I’m really going to miss talking to him as I did before this experience.
But I’m just not feeling like worrying about him right now. I just really have to reevaluate how much I admire him. Oola’s story about a guy well-known in his field, about whom she eventually took off the blinders, may be what’s happening here. At worst, some people would call what he did rape. At best, he just showed himself to be selfish, despite his protests of loving me, about something that should have been shared and meaningful.
FWIW, for anyone who remembers me from five years ago, when I joined BR, you’ll know all the work I’ve done on boundaries and self-esteem. This person, who ‘loves’ me, is someone I met years before my BR time, years before my epiphany relationships. I have often wondered, since I’ve come back to Toronto, how many of the relationships I started before I began a real self-work journey would survive. This one began well before my people-picker was fixed; he is a much older man and has been a mentor and professional support to me. He’s famous and fairly narcissistic. A brilliant mind, though (despite emotional immaturity) – my toxic type, my achilles heel! Things picked up between us when I came back.
Oola, your description of a guy who is invested in seeing women as troubled really resonates! The guy that brought me to BR had a harem of molested, suicidal women around him and I wasn’t doing much to break that mold; this old friend, I’ve noticed, describes himself as “drawn to those who have fallen amongst thorns” and likes to describe his students as “fragile” and “lost little lambs.” I’m sure I’ll be shaking my head when I get a bit of distance from this event.
One thing I do want to say is that I am not broken by this, I do not feel (as the rape counsellor today put it) that I “lost all my power”. I’ve lost a friendship, lost some illusions, had my trust dealt a blow. I’ve had to do a bit of conscious movement and such to reclaim my body and my energy. But the worst part of the whole experience was sitting alone in a coffee shop after he had gone home, trying to convince myself I had had a successful sexual experience, when really, I felt dully violated. Or maybe the worst was admitting how differently he had behaved from what I had expected and clearly negotiated with him, and what that really said about his respect for me.
I am very happy with myself for validating my own version of events, asserting my boundaries (even as messily as I did), coming here to BR, calling the help line and talking to my friend. I took a risk to try to start a sexual relationship and got hurt, but at least I’m not sticking around asking him to be nicer to me and please not hurt me anymore. There is a little voice inside me, a little gut feeling, that I have often ignored, minimized etc. As I type this I feel damn good that I have my own back.
I hope this never happens again, but if it does, maybe then I’ll just shrug it off with a “well, HE sucks in bed” and move on.
I’m a little concerned with the tone that some of these comments are taking in reply to Magnolia’s post. Good gracious, this is not the 1950s. Magnolia has the right to consent to what she wants to consent to and not consent to what she doesn’t want to consent to. As I see it, Magnolia was very clear. She set a firm boundary about what she wanted to happen and what she didn’t want to happen. Of course, an adult man is going to “want” to have sex but that doesn’t mean he is entitled to have it. As an adult, he can exercise self-control and should be putting respect for his partner above his own physical pleasure. It is perfectly acceptable to consent to be sexual for awhile, but not consent to full sexual intercourse. I’m not sure where there seems to be any confusion about this here.
For whatever reason, I was so convinced my ex was going to write me a letter after I broke up with him. I clearly remember thinking, “Oh, I don’t want to break up with him because he’s going to write me this letter and I’ll feel bad and it’ll be awkward and I won’t known what to do.” This probably stemmed from his giving me a cd of 80s and 90s r&b hits to declare his desire to be my man. (God I am so glad I am out of that mess.) Anyhow, no letter came. He screwed his ex instead .
Caretaking issues about just making decisions about someone else’s integrity without confessing to them my judgments (out of guilt, shame, compulsive need to give away my power, control their image stave off the painful end and disappointment) or waiting for the excruciating moment when I can call myself the victim and use that as fuel to be confrontational and speak the truth. Every day I hope I can find the guts to speak the truth of that day.
I worry so much about someone being a shit because I worry about having to reject them. Rejection/confrontation is very terrifying. I think I have been trained to think it is terrifying so I didn’t reject my dad. But also I think I use that fear as a reason to stay in addictive relationships to see if I can get “high” again.
Intellectually, I very much want to stay grounded in reality. But the unknowns of reality sometimes seem to be too much to bear. But thank God I have God!
Tangerine, I think you hit a very rich emotional vein in your few comments here. The “compulsive need to give away my power” and “waiting for the excruciating moment when I can call myself the victim and use that as fuel to be confrontational and speak the truth”.
I relate to those words and love the way you put that. I see myself in those words…where I oft times have given away my power..until I build up so much resentment and anger that I explode and paint myself as the victim of someone else’s lack of caring…when all along I was showing them that I don’t really care too much about myself by allowing them to twist-me turn-me do anything they want to-me, in order to fulfill MY need to confirm that I was…what?…a good person?….or connected to “something”….?
It is a challenge to learn to dance to your own tune when you have been codependently dancing to someone else’s tune for most of your life.
Hi Magnolia
I read your post with a few tears, I had a similar experience I got drunk on holiday with my boyfriends female family he stayed at home and was sober. We didn’t mean to get drunk we didn’t realise how much alchol was being put in the drinks and when we went outside bang it got us.
My ex boyfriend had been raped by his father as a child and the night before his family were laughing at the table at some of the things the dad did to the boys like hitting them but none of the other boys had been raped. I saw his face change and he left the room.
Anyways I came to with him
On top of me having anal sex with his face contorted in anger it was scAry but I had been passed out. In the morning when I approached him about it he said I wAs asking for it and he couldn’t shut me up until he did this. I blamed myself for years I minimised it, I came on a similar site and wS told similar things he was your boyfriend maybe you did ask just chalk it up to bad experience. But I never wanted anal and was horrified that I hadn’t had the choice to say no.
EmBarrassed to say I stayed with this guy for few years after where I endured some pretty humiliating stuff and thought it was my fault, he never did this to anyone else all his exes love him, it must me. Until one day I got the courage to leave him and never look back.
I have been to counselling and have had to go on antidepressants but I am slowly gaining my self back I have been single for 3 years and am happy this way.
My counsellor called it rApe it was not consensual and he was sober she said just because he was my boyfriend does not excuse this, I was making excuses she called As it was as did my mum when I had the courage to tell her. Don’t let people minimise how you are affected by what happened don’t be afraid to grieve it. I too was abused as I child by my step grandfather so I feel your pain x. You will be okay and will get past this but slowly x
Cautious,
Thank you for sharing your story. What a terrible thing for a boyfriend to do. As Donald Trump’s lawyer recently demonstrated, many people still think it’s not possible for a husband to rape his wife or a boyfriend to rape his girlfriend, though marital rape has been a crime in Canada since 1983, and in all 50 U.S. states since 1993. Men were no longer exempt from rape convictions of their wives in the U.K. beginning in 1991.
If every person immediately walked away from men who used sneaking, or deception, or force, or their partner’s incapacitation to have sex with them, there would be a lot less need for sites like BR and a lot less men thinking that penetration is a cookie one is forever trying to steal from the jar. I don’t know if you watch Mad Men, but in it, one of the main characters is raped by her fiancé (she says no, he just keeps going) and they both pretend it didn’t happen and she marries him anyway. Two years go by before she decides to leave him for other reasons and only at the very end, when he protests that he is a good man, she says, we both know you’re not – and that’s all that gets said. It was a good illustration of how a smart woman still stays with someone who has proved in the most graphic way that he is all about himself. I too have stayed in bad relationships, ones where my consent to most things, sexual and non, was achieved by threatening me with my own insecurities and suggesting that I was being disappointing.
I’m glad to hear you left him, didn’t look back, and are regaining a sense of yourself. It is a shame that sometimes sharing these experiences only shows us how women are taught to put the blame on ourselves, as you learned when you shared with your mom. I won’t be telling my mom about this, or if I do, it won’t be to look for her support or validation. Your counsellor sounds clear-headed. Thanks again for telling your story.
@Cautious. Unfortunately that was plain rape. You did very well to go to counselling and take care of yourself. It pains me to realise how much time it took for me to take that step, and it is an appreciated lesson seeing other people stepping up for themselves. V.
Correction, the last sentence of my post should read, “I’m not sure *why* there seems to be any confusion about this here.” I do apologize for the typo.
Magnolia, I’m so sorry this happened. It sucks that what should have been a really positive exploratory experience got derailed by this dude’s apparent entitlement to do as he pleases. I totally get why you’re feeling strange in the aftermath; it’s not your job to carry the consequences of other people’s errors. But also, you did what you were able to do to keep yourself safe in the moment. It’s painful when people we thought were trustworthy prove themselves unwilling to respect our boundaries so unexpectedly. It’s not unreasonable to want people who are supposed to love/care for us to be respectful of our boundaries. Please take good care of yourself. You deserve to be respected and cared for – by yourself, first and foremost. xoxo
I will add that my EUM wanted us to sleep together fairly quickly when we met. I love sex and I’m very into it and I like to go one step at a time. Sex is an emotional experience for me and I like to get to know someone and increase our sexual intensity over the series of dates. I figure, if you’re in it for the long haul, there’s no rush and we can really get acquainted with each other’s bodies instead of “insert tab A into slot b.” I like to explore and discover and understand what makes each other tick before we get to penetrative sex – it makes it more fun, more satisfying. For me anyway!
I remember after some exciting fooling around (and we both came), he asked, “Why haven’t we had sex yet?” I explained as above. Then, on a later date, when I was ready, he couldn’t get it up. I had this feeling that, because I didn’t sleep with him right away, he had simply checked out. I wasn’t serving my purpose, I suppose… Needless to say, I am grateful that we didn’t have penetrative sex – breaking up with him/moving on would have been significantly harder for me if we had. This is probably why I hesitated – somewhere inside, I knew this wasn’t going to work out.
After I broke it off for the EU issues, this is the same guy who agreed that platonic friendship would be worth a try – and felt entitled to touch my stomach and thigh during a class we were both in. I let him know he crossed the line and that was that. We’re not friends for the same reason we’re not in a romantic relationship: this man has no boundaries and doesn’t think beyond the moment.
All of this is to say that being super focused on penetrative sex is a red flag to me now. I enjoy all kinds of sexual play and pressing to get inside me isn’t a statement about his caring or even his desire for me – I think it’s to sink the emotional hook and be even lazier in his emotions/behavior. Especially when we’re catching on that they’re not all they claim to be – maybe penetrative sex is the way to inject new emotional intensity and distract us from who they are just a little longer. They may not even be conscious of it but I am convinced this is the motivation behind their urgency to fuck.
Well put!
But he’s a friend, therefore I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. Finally had to say out loud to myself that he was NOT friend and cut him off. Took me 5 years to get that imaginary relationship out of my head. Future faking, going ghost….layers, man, layers.
Magnolia,
You explicitly stated your reasonable terms. Your behavior after the first time he entered you without consent is very characteristic of what happens psychologically when someone has been assaulted by someone they trust. I am so sorry, my heart ached when I read about what you experienced with this guy.
*I’d like to make this point very clear: This man knew the terms and agreed to them, then acted on his own terms by using Magnolia’s body as if it were his for the taking — as if she were an object for his desire only, as if she had no voice or feelings or value beyond his very controllable urge.*
Magnolia, there is nothing wrong with you wanting to have a healthy fun consenting sexual experience without penetration. Nothing at all wrong in your terms.
And to anyone on the fence about this, I want to make this really clear:
NOT AT ANY POINT DO WE EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE OWE ANYONE OUR VAGINA, AND OR OUR SEXUALITY.
We can say no anytime to anyone to anything regarding sexuality. This is our integral indisputable right (male or female). What he did was so insidious it makes me sick. Magnolia, you are not to blame in any way shape or form for his repugnant behavior.
Also men get thousands of erections throughout their life. Do they get to do with them whatever they choose? Hell no!! We all have a prefrontal cortex (the part of our brain that is responsible for decision making and impulse control). And if that area is damaged in some way, people have a responsibility to seek treatment — not abuse or take advantage of others. And verbal, healthy affirmative consent where both parties are of legal age, not drunk, and of sound mind is what it takes to gain consent.
Magnolia, my thoughts are with you, treat yourself nice because you deserve it. You deserve care, trustworthy people, fun, health, consensual pleasure, and peace of mind.
From woman to woman, I am so sorry this happened to you when you were being from a state of trust and adventure. You did not deserve this, nor did you cause it to happen.
Take care xx
Peanut
The most emotionally bankrupt, unavailable man I have ever met – and who drove me to this site many years ago – was studying to be a psychologist and was quite active with his spiritual and family life. Not making assumptions about the connection between education/field/family/religion and emotional IQ was the biggest lesson I learned from him!
I’ve found it also works the other way around, where in some cases men I would have never thought to give the time of day to on paper turned out to be real nice gentlemen. I now give every guy a chance, and I do my best to check myself if I feel rose-colored glasses coming on and making assumptions.
I haven’t posted on here in a while, but still feel like I’m learning so much. I met a man at a garden party last week, someone I’d met briefly before, and we hit it off, talking for a few hours. He was clearly popular and well accepted among our mutual acquaintances and his life and achievements were interesting, I was attracted to him, and we left together to go for dinner. It was romantic, we walked and kissed, and he tried to encourage me to take it further. I declined and soon after said I wanted to go home.
It was a nice evening, but I know very well that even a year ago, I might have taken him home, and this would have greatly clouded my judgement. It might be the bleeding obvious to some people, but I am someone who was/is totally uncoached in this area, and I think it’s the amazing comments and some tough love on here that got me to this better place.
Anyway, even without taking it further, I entered into great internal drama and confusion the next day. My gut was telling me it was wrong, and I was taking this to mean that perhaps I’m just too scared of sharing and commitment and too fixed into my own life and comfort zone. There is clearly some baggage here, in that I’ve given too much of myself in the past to inappropriate people and don’t want to go through that mangle again. But then reason came to me, and I realised there was a lot to back this gut feeling, it was far from an irrational knee-jerk reaction-
– He talked about himself a lot and didn’t reciprocate the interest I showed in him, though he was good enough company
– He tried to pressure me into sex, to the extent that I had to explain myself
– He left me feeling physically inadequate, even though I’ve put a lot into my health recently and feel great. I thought that rather than being a ‘cutting down’ thing, this may be because he’s zealous about fitness and exercise and not realising what he says may be upsetting, but I realise that’s not ok either, he actually hurt me trying to show me where I need to stretch!
– Indications of being controlling – the fitness thing and other rules he lives by, he clearly thinks others should do things the same way as him, and looks down on them/ complains about them if they don’t
This hardly bodes well for an independent woman who has built up a largely happy, satisfying life.
I feel lighter now that I’ve made the decision, now it’s what to do next. He texted me today in a way that suggests he’s interested, and I made a mistake with too much too soon. I think he’s a perfectly ok person, and it would be a shame to lose our connection when we have so much in common, but don’t see how we can be friends after this.
Happy , IMO, your instincts about this guy are accurate…he’s not really a “giving” personality type. Sounds like a harem man. He may make a good acquaintance, but nothing more. No need to “create” something here.
Hi Happy B… It sounds like you’ve identified some red flags and I would agree. I would see these as clues for what is in store. I wrote a little bit about my approach to sex and what I know works for me – and I think sometimes guys think they’re gonna run the show. When I know what works for me and what doesn’t, they have the opportunity to demonstrate they care about that (the listen to what I’m saying and take me seriously) or they disregard that and do what they want.
This guy doesn’t seem to be tuned into you but he sounds very focused on himself, which I do agree is a bad sign. Imagine this guy in bed… I hardly think he has your pleasure as a priority if he’s not paying attention to what you’re saying with your clothes on. And if he really does want to get to know you, then there’s no rush on the sex stuff and it can happen in steps, as your comfort level deepens. If he’s a short-term thinker who’s just trying to “conquer” a smart, independent woman for his ego (kinda sounds like it), he’ll keep pressing to get you in bed so he can feel like he “won.” If this is the case, believe me, your enjoyment/orgasm is the last thing on his mind. lol
Elgie R., he could be a harem man – those bits of behaviour I identified would have attached me to him before my BR journey. He would have been the older man telling me what I need, knowing what’s right, taking control etc., something I used to find attractive (urgh). So I imagine other women must respond to it.
Michelle, on the other hand, if he IS a harem man, he’s probably good at giving pleasure, and just as good at depriving you of it! But I don’t care to find out.
“if he IS a harem man, he’s probably good at giving pleasure, and just as good at depriving you of it!”
Wow, excellent observation!!!!
Veracity, I know it too well! But there is a more serious point to be made that a man being fixed on you on a date, in bed etc., could be a means to an end rather than showing genuine interest. If your ego is that greedy, it’s quite simple that certain words and practices will get a woman’s devotion.
I must say I’m agonising a bit too much about not returning his messages. I think my gut feelings about him are true and there is evidence, but doesn’t change the fact that I’ve done a U-turn. Yes it was just one date and a bit of kissing, but a talky date. But then, I just feel irritated that he messages me after 3 days, then doesn’t even give me 24 hours to reply before trying to call me. Like he’s saying ‘I’ll contact you at my leisure, then you should jump to reply’. It seems presumptuous. I’m down on myself, feeling like I haven’t advanced and shouldn’t get into this situation at my age. Though I’m pretty sure I would have gone out with him and tried to convince myself it was fun if it were a few years ago, so could be worse.
I read your earlier post about sociopaths, and my reflection is that this sounds like not unusual boss behaviour – in many sectors it’s institutionalised. The insecurity of economies in general is reflected in workplaces, making ambiguity and evasion more common.
I don’t think you’re attracting men who hate women, but that sadly a lot do. Going into the dating pool has been a shock to me in many ways – it’s just a crazy world out there, such bizarre worldviews and expectations, and that’s why connections, friendships as well as relationships, are so very special. I think the most important thing is realise that we don’t have any contribution to others’ behaviour, they are who they are. We only become a common denominator if we involve ourselves.
Point taken, happy b.
I’m sorry to hear that you are agonizing over this but understand all to well. You are changing your behavior and the old voices come up to tell you (whatever your voices are telling you – mine tend to be something like – you’re selfish, you’re being mean, you’re being judgmental, blah, blah, blah). Guilt?
Upon further reflection you have changed your mind, that’s aloud. 🙂
That whole waiting then wanting you to jump thing does seem presumptuous and shows a lack of self control on his part.
What are you going to/did you do?
Your feeling are important. That being said, it sounds like you may be being hard on yourself. Get into what situation? Meeting what seemed like a great guy and spending an evening with him that ended with some kissing? Bravo for keeping your head and recognizing and honoring your limits! That’s huge!
That’s scary that that sort of behavior in the workplace is considered normal now. Yes, I would agree that economic insecurity pays a significant role in what employers get away with and what employees will tolerate. No thanks.
How long were you out of the dating pool?
I hope you are right and that I’m not attracting women haters. Yes, it is crazy out there and makes focusing on enriching current relationships a high priority for me. I agree wholeheartedly that the realization that we aren’t responsible for, don’t have any contribution to, others’ behavior is key in protecting ourselves/keeping ourselves from getting involved. If we don’t recognize that, we work to fix, change, save…set ourselves up to fail.
Veracity, yes a lot of guilt, it just doesn’t seem decent to ignore someone, but that’s what I’ll have to do. Magnolia was right in the first place that it’s really not a big deal to cut contact after one date, or two or even three. It’s reopened a wound, but I am optimistic that it’s not me sabotaging any kind of intimacy, but instead recognising that this particular relationship could not go in any healthy direction.
I was never really in the dating pool until this past year, never pro-active in looking for people. I’m reminded after a conversation with a friend, that any relationship is a dance, and part of the pain of unhealthy ones is to see how we played along. These men appear and ask us to dance, and what matters is whether we accept their offer, or say ‘no thanks’.
happy b, You don’t have to ignore him if you’re not comfortable with that. I save the ignoring for total creeps. What about letting him know that you enjoyed meeting him and that you’re not interested in pursuing anything further?
I did, in the end, send a message just to make it clear and wish him the best. It had more intensity than a date. Say it was a date with someone I met online and it ended with a kiss, I think it would be different, but to have a chance meeting and spend the evening together with very little alcohol and, I hate to say it, making plans to do other things, even if abstract ones and before it got romantic – well, I kind of think I did owe him.
It’s funny how my fear in dating is more based on how to shake people off, than being rejected, and that it does end up hurting and taking over my emotions, hence the ‘why am I here again?’ feeling. A friend told me I’m picky (that old chestnut), but anyone I’ve rejected really wasn’t relationship material. I get little attention from men, they’re few and far between, so if this all makes me sound like I’m chasing them away, I really am not. Not surprising when most of my life I was trying to make myself invisible. But this isn’t self pity anymore either, it’s nice to be attractive to some, to people who have admirable qualities. There’s a whole lot between totally inappropriate, and perfect match, but I didn’t used to have that nuance, so never took it as a compliment. I think that’s why I used to get so freaked out by unwanted attention, and still do a little bit.
Sounds like you are at peace with your decision, that’s great!
I can totally relate to the whole paragraph. I have conflicting emotions about attention as I was the invisible child as well. Do you have any insights into it?
Veracity,
That’s interesting that you relate, though I’m not surprised after conversations about family we’ve had in the past.
I don’t know, would like to get to the bottom of it. Conflicting emotions feels like progress to me, in that there’s something positive in there. It used to bring nothing positive at all, just a really dark feeling that I didn’t understand. Again, the number of unwanted suitors I’ve had is probably in single figures, but that makes it all the more mysterious that it would feel like such a suffocating invasion of my privacy and independence, just for someone to show interest! Where does it come from? I think part of it is that I polarised people – either on a pedestal, or a threat, as I think my mother did too. It must surely be the lack of self esteem too. Nothing could ever reflect well on me, the way I used to think, I must be a bad person to reject others, and they must have something seriously wrong with them to have interest in me. I of course fell hard for others who gave their attention, and they at least in a shallow way made me feel good about myself. But really, why couldn’t I just say (in my head) thanks, that’s nice, but sorry you’re not my type to the others? I’m nearly there though, as this recent experience has showed. What do you think? Have you had these strange feelings?
@happy b,
I disagree, usually a harem man is there for his own pleasure; as soon as he gets you into the bed, on the floor, or wherever, whenever, all bets are off, and he is going for his own pleasure, sort of like live porn.
It’s all mechanical. The thing is if you are busy going for yours you won’t notice. It’s like two addicts licking their lips and then smoking from the same crack pipe; they are both fine because they are both getting high at the same time. You use me to get off, and I’ll use you to get off. Then when it’s over one or both might try to apply meaning to it. If you were able to “split” and watch the whole thing, you’d realize just how mechanical it is. He mine as well be sleep walking to go brush his teeth. Twist, turn, open , fiddle, brush, and move it around, swish, and spit.
If you just want to get off, then I suppose he will “pleasure you.” But not really, orgasims are really in the mind and body of the beholder. No one makes you feel…; they are your feelings. You are deciding what feels good…who you are attracted to…you have ultimately decided what turns you on…etc…. And hence, you are both easily replaceable by someone else because it doesn’t take much to get yourself all hot and bothered; the brain remembers, and it will oblige. … “Cue hormones and raise the hot point she’s going in…!
Drip, very interesting comments, and I’m sure you’re right, but have to say the artificial, inconsistent intimacy of the harem man beats any experience with a man who is bitter or plain hateful towards women, which was something truly shocking to me. You can tell what a privileged romantic life I’ve had! But those days are behind me.
happy b! glad to see you’re still around these parts, still learning and out there living!
How exactly did you do “too much too soon”? We are in a time where if you wanted to go home with him and sleep with him that night, it’s all good – morally, I mean – what’s important is whatever choices we make, we’re okay with them. You don’t owe him anything for having kissed him. Just think of all the dudes that drop off the face of the planet after a one-night stand. You can do a ghost act after a bit of kissing, it’s okay. Likely, a guy like you describe would have pulled some of those himself and will not waste too much energy wondering what happened if you don’t return his texts.
Your gut is telling you that this guy isn’t relationship material. But you weren’t “wrong” to kiss him if you were both into it. What remains is the question around are you doing the best for you, are you getting what you want, if you see this interaction as the start of a more meaningful interaction?
You seem to have a pretty good handle on the kind of dude he is.
Earlier this summer, I went out to a jazz club and got myself picked up by a handsome, charming professor. We went out a few times. He bought me wine, took me to a movie, etc and even asked a fair bit about me and mentioned all the people he’d like to introduce me to. But he also brought up invitations back to his place way too early, his enthusiasm for drinking was more than I’d like. I eventually got a bit inebriated with him and kissed him, but didn’t go back to his place. I realized I was in a new place in my own development when I was like, hmm, you know, kissing him is maybe an invitation to knowing me better, maybe just to see if he’s a good kisser, maybe just to act on my attraction. I don’t owe him a darn thing after a kiss, and so how do I act like a kind, responsible human being after that?
Turns out he dropped me like a hot potato after that, total radio silence. It hurt a lot less than it might have when I thought a kiss was a promise. If I didn’t owe him anything, neither did he owe me anything. I did not follow up to ask, hey, I thought we had a nice night and a lot in common (we did, but so what?). What I took out of that experience was feeling attractive and kissable and back to working my way through kissing the frogs (who knew how handsome and charming the frogs would be?) as I keep exploring the relationship between respecting others and going after my own pleasure and my own satisfaction.
You are in a better place, happy b, so keep rocking it and keep trusting your gut.
Magnolia,
Firstly, I read your earlier posts now. You haven’t lost your power – your mind couldn’t be any clearer.
I can think of so many situations, in fiction, from friends, from my experiences, of couples doing everything but penetration, in bed, naked. Cultures with no sex before marriage, people who want to wait, women who have periods, men who think it’s not cheating if there’s no penetration, etc etc. Years ago, I was in a similar situation where we were naked and fooling around, after a big night out, but we agreed he wouldn’t penetrate me. This was a friend of a friend, who I barely knew. He nagged and nagged rather than trying directly. We did eventually have sex, some hours later, with my consent. I felt terrible about it, that I was so weak-willed, and was angry that he’d pressured me (I thought it was absurd that he tried to start going out with me after that behaviour) – but I had given my consent verbally and without being threatened, and he’d known that without that, he wasn’t invited. You didn’t give consent. You had every right to expect him to do what was agreed, and his betrayal is inexcusable.
Some time ago, I received some caustic comments on here in relation to sex and was hurt by them, I wish I’d had your courage to challenge them.
Thanks for your kind response to this post – it is the problem of what we owe, or think we owe. I would be happy having no contact and appreciating a spontaneous, romantic and pretty intense evening. In keeping with my instincts about him, the message doesn’t ask anything and just tells me what he’s doing!
p.s. that last paragraph follows on from talking about my date.
Flush.
Thanks, a BR classic!
You have great instincts, it’s safe to trust them.
Thanks Veracity, so do you. I did question them a lot.
Magnolia, Cautious and to anyone else who has been violated by a man they trusted – I understand and it is not our fault.
The exact same thing happened to me 2 years ago and I’m still trying to process it. Had known and been close to the guy for 8 years – I don’t sleep with people without protection until we’ve been together for years and I’m sure we are in a comitted stable relationship.
This guy despite having a disease that could be passed on by unprotected contact one night ‘slipped it in’
He had been drinking (He had an alcohol problem ) and we’d been lying on his sofa watching a film. A kiss turned into him being on top of me and putting his penis inside of me.
I was a bit shocked at first and didn’t quite get what was happening as he knew that due to his condition unprotected sex was an absolute no no.
I think what helped me to minimise this event was the fact that due to medication for said illness he was unable to get actually hard and carry out sex.
Thankfully I had also got vaccinated against his disease just in case.
Forcing himself on me like that was about his issues. He had been abused as a kid and he was finding it hard to deal with being in a sexual relationship and not being able to perform.
It took a while but thankful to say this man has been booted out my life.
I don’t hate him. I have a lot of love for him still but I recognised him as damaged. His own problems superceded my well being.
Magnolia and others – what he did was wrong. All men are not incapable of controlling themselves . That lack of control is a sign the man is dangerous.
Bxx
I will never understand the whole “Hi how are you. Fine, nice to meet you. We had one good conversation. Let’s fuck.”
Oh hell no! I don’t know you, and in the span of one evening wth makes you think I trust you to enter my body? I don’t know where your hands have been, much less your penis.
Do you have AIDS? Herpies? Hepatitis C? Did you hit your mother, sister,or your bother? Are you honest? Will you treat me with love, care, trust, and respect?
I’m not a walking vagina. …never took you as a walking d–k.
I haven’t even considered tasting your spit.
Flowers… Right on… lol
Boo,
I contracted an std 15 yrs ago from a man who knew he had one and had unprotected sex with me anyway. It was not fun. Thank God treatment was successful (or more like thank/praise science). I really would rather never go through that again; it was awful.
Also, on my part all the red flags were there. It was not a good choice to sleep with him. I haven’t had sex since my early twenties — and that’s been years ago. (And most of my friends having sex eventually get stds…or accidentally become pregnant.) There is no sex education where I am from; so many people are uninformed and promiscuous. I must find somebody with self-control who is worthy of me before I’d even consider sex.
Peanut I would agree with :
“I must find somebody with self-control who is worthy of me before I’d even consider sex.”
Try to let yourself find that out though. Don’t shy away too much from any natural sexual desires you may experience. What happned to you is terrible. It does not have to happen again.
Have boundaries, know your limits and communicate them.
You will be ok, just keep talking about your worries with people you trust.
Florence has a sister; her name is Betty-Borderline.
I used to think intelligent people had a better chance of overcoming traumatic childhood experiences, specifically I’m thinking about my parents: the narcissist and the martyr. As a child, I always thought because they were so intelligent, surely they knew they were mentally/ emotionally sick, and they could easily understand what they needed to do to become ‘normal.’ So, they were just too lazy to do the work, or too bourgeois to go to therapy.
I’ve been angry at them all my life for not doing the work to become ‘normal,’ so they could become better parents and people.
Case in point: sometimes the smarter you are the better your bullshit. You can wrap it up in highfalutin thought processes all you want. It can even make ‘sense,’ but at the end of the day may your Creator or best friend help you because it’s still bullshit, which causes me to appreciate the true value of the ‘ignorant’ who thrive on “common sense.”
And sadly, emotional and mental illness seem to trump intelligence with the exception of a few “beautiful minds.”
Thank you Boo. Thanks happy and peanut too, and everyone. I’ve reread your words a few times; I keep coming back and rereading your posts.
My ‘friend’ until now has been apologetic, but he must have been assuming I’m just having a hissy fit and will soon get back into conversation with and admiration for him. I finally blocked him on FB yesterday, and thought I’d filtered him on email too, but I missed an address. I got an angry note once he’d found I’d blocked him. I don’t think he understood, or gave any thought to the words “penetrated without consent” until he saw that he wasn’t my FB friend anymore. Now he tells me he didn’t rape me, that I’m not listening to his apologies, that I’m blowing things out of proportion and having a selective memory and that he needs to come see me because we belong together. It’s a disturbing side of him to see. I keep going back to the rape counselling people and they continue to be awesome, reminding me that just because it wasn’t violent doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be angry, that making the guy breakfast afterward (I did that) doesn’t mean I consented to what happened, just because I went with it once it happened and didn’t put up a fuss (here she explained the neurobiology of assault, and why we just do the most self-protective thing) doesn’t mean he’s exonerated, etc etc. She also confirmed that one thing that happens to a lot of the women she speaks to is that the guy tries to make her out as crazy, and when I read her his note, she said it sounded like he wants to make me doubt myself and my perceptions.
I never thought of my friend as dangerous, but he’s certainly not the safe person I’d hoped he was, and if the unwanted penetration isn’t enough evidence of that, certainly his continuing to email me and facebook me after I’ve asked him to leave me alone, and his seeming inability to understand that words don’t undo his actions, show he doesn’t do boundaries and that in itself is enough reason to step way back.
“I don’t hate him. I have a lot of love for him still but I recognize him as damaged. His own problems superceded my well being.” Yes, Boo, yes. That is pretty much how I feel.
Magnolia,
You are acting with courage and integrity. Keep going in this path. Hang in there. The rape crisis center sounds amazing and like they know their stuff.
Also, people who seem so great can have the seediest of ways underneath it all. Years ago my aunt married a very handsome, easy-going, hard working man in his twenties with a good job. Turns out he was a child molester. The things he did to myself as a child and his daughters as children, are horrific. We always have to judge by actions.
And your ex friend sounds very dangerous and scummy.
Boo,
I completely agree with your words to me and thank you for the reply. The biggest challenge for me will be to be open to a healthy sexual situation given my past.
I think it’s a waste of time worrying about the how’s and whys about men. As per Natalie’s articles . I’ve been that woman thinking that he’s treating the other woman better ( he’s not) . Have put myself in an uncomfortable sexual position likened to emotional abuse compelling me to go down on him (back then when we were together) . To reconnecting after a year . Upon being asked ” are you seeing someone ” ? He replied no. To then me confronting him this year .he was trying to use me to cheat on his current gf. The woman found out everything and what does she do ? Take him on an expense paid round the world trip . In between all this i went on a dates with a guy that made me feel like crap. Telling me I was “cold” muttering under his breathe ” what am I doing here”
When we were out chatting in a bar.we had gone on 5 dates and had not kissed. With me feeling like crap I kissed him that night when I should not have. I never slept with him thank god . But made me realise that no, I don’t want to be rushed . This same guy told me that ” I like you better when you drink ‘ . I did the fade on him and he on me. But will not contact again. I’m at the stage where I’m going to maintain my boundaries. I’m not going to be forced into doing what a man wants . I’m going to live my life my way and ditch toxic energy people . I don’t want to analyse why they were shite towards me . I don’t think we need a man to be happy . It’s also draining on my life talking about why they did this or that. I’ve got my friends , my family , my hobbies and I’m happy .
Happy B,
Just reading your questions to Veracity above. Seems to me that you are experiencing requests (attention and interest)from men (at least) as demands (rather than questions) which you are then obliged to respond to. Not saying you are fully aware of that. Hope that helps.
Lizzp, very insightful, I would say even epiphany-causing! Something I hadn’t thought about before. My dad is very much about unquestioning duty to others and I think that has a bearing on it. I also realise I had no guidance, or very negative guidance, about men – my mum was no longer parenting when I hit puberty and their marriage was awful (they divorced later). Other women in the family were cynical and hateful towards men but also made it clear that my purpose in life was to find one, as did one of my brothers. But they never said I could be happy, it was this thing I had to do. It’s like their pressure and negativity comes to me when an unwanted man wants a relationship with me, but I didn’t realise it before. Part of shaking off my upbringing is to tell myself I’m free and can do as I please whenever I feel anxious about something, and it’s like the magic phrase that instantly lifts the fog – but I hadn’t made that connection.
I’m going to respond to your question here as it seems appropriate. I was struggling to answer your question as it seemed to have many underlying issues associated with it. I wondered if it had something to do with lack of trust in people/relationships/men/me, lack of freedom, fear of failing.
This experiencing the requests as demands does resonate with me as well, not just in dating, but in almost all aspects of life. It feels less so now, but it was definitely there. I was raised to be a servant, so there was no thought of choice in the matter, I didn’t experience the freedom to say no to anything. Women were subservient. So I did experience it as a demand/obligation.
Like you, happy b, I have been recognizing the freedom to choose, to say no. Not just in dating, but in all aspects of my life. It has been so liberating. Life changing, really.
I finally feel free.
Veracity,
That makes me so happy for you, that you feel free. I can understand that – I’ve been getting there in most areas of life and outside these occasional wobbles, am thankful everyday for freedom. When you do learn to say no (in words or actions) without the drama of feeling guilt and inadequacy, there is so much more to give anyway, more sincerity and a more positive view of the world. I don’t know if it’s an outcome of these changes, but I now see things differently in that I understand I have a finite amount of energy and time and need to think carefully about how I use it, while before I was more passive and not feeling like there was so much choice.
This new understanding about that huge weight on my shoulders, thanks to you and lizzp, feels like great progress and makes me hope I could ever bring so much insight to other BR posters, huge thanks.
happy b,
Thank you.
Yes to everything you wrote! 🙂
I’ve also noticed feeling more powerful, truly, authentically powerful.
I’m very happy for you! I think the credit goes to lizzp, but I’m happy our conversation helped bring it to awareness.
I was thinking of empowerment and authenticity too. And also knowing when to quit things that aren’t working and cut your losses, instead of thinking there’s some invisible reward for persisting with something that’s a waste of time, or waiting around for something that won’t happen. That includes some books and films! There have been many moments when I’ve walked away from something or someone and gained the energy to do something else, didn’t used to do that when I was so duty-bound. If I did, it felt like failure, and now is freedom.
Here’s to our newfound authenticity, power and freedom!!
Here’s to listening to and honoring our true selves!!
Well done!
Hear hear, well done you too!
Hi Natalie, am a first time poster, but been benefiting from your posts over the years. Honestly speaking, even though the reason for coming in here was an EUM, I realized that I had a lot of issues related to being an avoidant, avoider of deep friendships, and not practising good self love habits. My habits of introversion impacted my dating habits too, so while it took a lot of courage to put myself out there and say yes to dating most men without knowing myself at first, it gave me a lot of real-world insights to help me understand me, my standards better. Mindfulness practices have been enormously helpful.
Cut to present place. At some level, I understand that the best parts of me come out in a relationship and that involves sharing all good, bad, ugly parts with another person. Usually I have no problems saying no to something that is not working or giving a person time to see how things work out. This time around though, it is not so easy as a yay or a nay with the guy I am most currently dating. Because I cannot point fingers at him without me having to take ownership of my own issues as well. I also realize that creating/sustaining long term relationships involve not just meeting the right person but both being able/willing to put in the efforts to nurture a relationship and make it grow.
Yet, am having trouble thinking straight in this situation and will like your advice. Have been dating steadily and recently took a break because of a job situation that made me question my self worth. We met by coincidence through a common acquaintance. We connected well, had a no-holds barred conversation on important topics and towards the end he did mention that while he is interested, he is unhappy with his current job position and because of that the timing isn’t right.
What I liked about him was his honesty and integrity in following through, and even though we are long distance now he keeps me in the know-how of his day-to-day and weekend activities. Any time I text him I get a prompt response and any question I ask him I get a clear answer. He’s also someone who’s constantly making plans with his friends to do things over the weekends and keeps himself busy. I tend to like relax during weekends and my leisure pursuits involve engaging in personal hobbies.
At the same time, it bothered me that he was not taking time to fully investing time to getting to know where both of us are headed. Anytime I feel that we converse a bit about deeper topics I feel a subtle withdrawal on his part. We used to talk often previously but now it’s back to texts. I know that if I ask him to call or skype me, he will. But it bothers me that he is showing signs of being on the fence. I did ask him upfront to which he said he has no problems with saying yes, but he cannot take a long term decision. Which I understood. I thought let us even see first via communicating if we are compatible and then decide one way or another.
We had good conversations in the first month, but slowly started fading over the second and third months. I do not feel like it’s as important for him to prioritize time for me as easily as he easily coordinates activities with people around him. Maybe he has a lesser need to be in a relationship or I do not interest him that much. It’s also possible that he maybe scouting around to date a better person or seeing if there is any potential. And yet intermediately we have sparks of conversation that make me reconsider. I must add that he’s on an aggressive job hunt wherein initially he had some very good leads and was confident of navigating the transition but things didn’t work out the way he had hoped for.
Am not comfortable demanding him to commit or else scenario. I just wish I could know for sure he’s not interested so I can move on. Because sometimes I feel he’s holding himself back and sometimes I feel he’s really trying hard. But it’s not so easy knowing the best way to move forwards. Am I withdrawing too soon instead of investing? Or should I abruptly make a clean break in here?
It’s neither here nor there for me, that is making me highly uncomfortable for me. This limbo stage is terrible. Should I give him more chances? If it’s time to make a clean break in a healthy manner, how do I do so? How do you advise I approach this situation?
Hi Julianne,
At the beginning:
“he did mention that while he is interested, he is unhappy with his current job position and because of that the timing isn’t right.”
^THAT^
That’s his safety net and built-in escape route. That’s his get out of jail free, I told you I couldn’t do a relationship statement RIGHT THERE. Even if the topic doesn’t come up again, that’s his go-to, which means whatever is between you is casual, and he will dictate
the rules. Now according to his rules, he is off the hook for any commitment, and if you choose to stick around, it’s on his terms. The timing is never going to be ‘right’ with him. It’s a self-created obstacle. An excuse. Otherwise known as red flag. It seems like you’re sensing correctly but haven’t convinced yourself to trust that what you have shared here ‘is what it is’.
Hi SaySomething. That part certainly bothers me. What would you advise I do, to take a clean break while he sorts things out at his end? Our communications are mainly confined to texts. How do I communicate the same in a healthy manner without sounding whining, needy or demanding?
Previously I wanted to tell him that we need to communicate regularly to know if this dating has potential to move to the next level or not. Now I am not sure I want to ask him to talk to me frequently, because that commitment to get to know someone needs to come from within, right?
I just wanted to confirm, my choosing to take some distance until he sorts out his issues, is that justified? Am not unfairly making him pay the price for some other EUM before him right?
Julianne, I understand only now, in the hindsight: if you have to ask yourself or him these questions, that’s your answer right there. You don’t have to wonder about commitment or next level in a healthy relationship. I wish I knew it before, but I know it now.
@Julianne, I agree with Sofia. You have to make the decision for yourself. Perhaps this situation feels “safe” because:
EU + EU = no real relationship
Activity is not the same as productivity. It’s wheel spinning drama and wasting time on the wrong person. If a man wants to see you, he will.
Say Something, Thanks for hitting the nail on the head. It hurts a lot to hear that. Just sometime ago I was coming up with ways to deepen the conversations, seeing how we can interact regularly so that we could get to know each other as a person. And here I am wondering how did things get to this place.
He was good with communications earlier optimistic that at least one of the 3 places he was trying for would go through. Now since the last couple of his job leads fell through he has started to grow distant. I can’t blame him either because it is stressful on him too. I do feel awful that I did distance myself from him saying that I understand your priorities have changed.
Not sure if that means I am selfish, but it was taking a toll on me emotionally, and he needed his space. He did tell me that his way of de-stressing was reaching out to people and going sight-seeing locally. There are few expectations of in-depth conversations with them and no way that one can be that vulnerable with a stranger when dating. At the same time, no point in me continuing to kill myself on the inside, standing from the sidelines, wondering what is going to happen next and staying stuck in a limbo phase.
Hi Say Something,
Miss you (smile). That get out of jail free card that you mention makes me nervous. If I heard anyone even slightly hint at something like that I would run for the hills. I wouldn’t be able to make the investment.
Two days ago I was sitting near a lady who was with a large group of friends planning her wedding. Talk about a tough day for me. They were looking at invitations. Made me think about all the time and money I wasted. Major regrets. But I read the BR story about the man who was married a month and his wife checked out on him. So, I thought I am so much better off that I broke it off before it went any further.
I try to put the regrets out of my mind and look at how much worse it could have been. I am so sorry that you are still not getting sleep. When I read advice you give I know you will really protect yourself next time. Is it getting any better? Is therapy helping heal the pain?
I am reading older BR posts about letting go. My strategy is to keep reading positive things. I also actually read all of the old comments because it helps to hear how other people heal.
MJ
Mary Jane,
I was living on BR for months and months. Reading the old posts helped my healing tremendously. Looking back, over 1,5 years of healing now, it has been a long journey. Up and down, happy and hurt. It is a continuous recycling too but with diminishing cycles in the diameter and power. When I feel bad sometimes, I sit back and just feel the feeling and let it pass through me without reacting or making any actions or conclusions. I acknowledge what I am feeling, validating myself and forgiving and knowing, tomorrow or in couple days I will be better. Or even in a week, but I will be better. I will heal more and more with every passing day. It takes time. BR saved me throughout those months. And still does. I can say now that I am over him, but I am not over the pain. I feel that something is broken, maybe self-esteem, ability to trust, and hope for a relationship that lasts. On the bright side, the healing makes you stronger, more self-sufficient, content, more solid, having your back, and all the wonderful qualities that I had not had before but gained because of the hurt and betrayal I went through. Just know it will get better. It won’t last forever. But know it’s normal what you are going through. Very normal. I can relate to your and Say Something’s loneliness. I am just learning to deal with it and build my own inner life that will keep me strong and keep on going no matter the tribulations, life troubles, people leaving or dying. I feel your pain and sadness in yours and Say Something’s posts. Time will help. We have heard it before from other people. I am an example to show that time does heal. I know I will be even much more solid and better few months forward. It is working. We will be much better soon. I promise you.
Hi Sofia,
It is so good to see you back here at BR. Don’t you love the new look? I so appreciate your kind words today. Needed this big time. Your are right the older BR posts offer healing. Believe it or not they offer me company on late nights when I am in deep thought. It so helps to hear what other women think and experience.
You are right time does help. I have had those days where I just have an inclination to ask him WHY? I would never call him. But there are days my soul wants answers. Really just one question- WHY MOFO? It makes me feel like my life is sorta STUCK. Another thing that you may find shocking is that I don’t hate him. I don’t feel any hate for him. I am just hurt about what happened and I don’t want him in my life -EVER. I don’t have the energy to hate him. Do you think it is strange that I don’t hate him after what he did to me? I am very busy giving myself closure and doing what Nat describes about self soothing.
The words you took time to share with me today- really helped. You say things like: We will be much better soon. I promise you. These are words I will repeat when I have tough days. BR is a major source of healing for me. BIG HUG. Thank you.
MJ
Mary Jane,
It is not surprising or strange that you don’t hate him. It’s actually good. It will help you heal faster. Have you had anger/hate short-lasting outbursts though? Those are good to have as a part of the grieving cycle. As long as we don’t get stuck in them. I don’t hate the ex and never hated him back then. I had some short anger tantrums, and that was about it. My attitude toward him now is: I don’t wish him bad, but I don’t want to know about him either: good or bad. I just don’t want him in my life ever in any form. It doesn’t mean I hate him, it just means I am still in pain and any contact will disturb me. So it’s a good thing you don’t hate him. Anger is like depression. People get stuck in it and it’s hard to climb out, which actually brings me to another idea: you could have an inverted anger, which is depression. Because you have a very kind-heart and are a warm person, you could potentially bury the anger inside and that will make you depressed. Watch for your signs and when you feel angry, scream it out and hit things at home (safely like a pillow, for instance). I was very well aware during my healing that if I don’t allow myself to feel all the hatred (temporary) and anger, it will show itself in a different way. So I was very attentive to my feelings and made sure I experienced them all without cover up or stifling.
The links that Say Something provided gave me another epiphany yesterday. I never labeled the ex and avoided to because that would keep me stuck figuring out why and distract from working on me. So I was for never for determining whether he was EU, not into me, AC, narcissist, or psychopath. It seems that when I came to a conclusion in any given week, it would crumble down next week because I would start doubting and go forth and back deciding who he really was and why. I could never figure it out and never will. However, yesterday’s reading till late night made me gasp in amazement. I could match all the things said about him at least 80%. All the belittling, hot-cold, all the subtle or not so subtle critical remarks while adoring me, all the confusion and contradiction. Devaluing and then quick discard, and all of it started with such a hot pursuit and romantic phase. It was an amazing read yesterday. Thank you, Say Something. And although I don’t hurry to the conclusion that he is a psychopath, one thing for sure (and the author of the blog says that), what matters is how I felt aftermath and how I still feel now. After all the hard work on myself, I am still picking up pieces and wondering why it hurts so much still and why I became anxious, very shy, panicky sometimes, jumpy, and very sensitive to any trigger about him (the country he is from, the songs, language, music, etc). I realize now it must be trauma. I used to brush off the “trauma” syndrome because I thought it was for people who went through severe cases such as war, rape, incest, and other damaging life events. What I had was not a typical breakup, but now I do realize that I have to confront and accept (like the author in the blog says) that I experienced a betrayal and it turned my life around completely in the aftermath. So that’s a good starting point again and perhaps it will help me healing going forward. Again, thank you, Say Something, for the article. I won’t come back to that blog and dwell anymore, but yesterday was quite a read. It helps understanding why I am feeling the way I am feeling now. More self-awareness to me and how to help myself with compassion, being good to me, like a parent, a mentor, and a good therapist. That’s my continuing focus.
I love the blog design and podcasts too!
I am glad my words helped you. Big hug.
Sofia
Hi Sofia,
My anger was the most intense when I discovered he was cheating. I cut off the relationship and walked away. My anger was so intense that I blow up and didn’t get answers about WHY he did it. Once I calmed down weeks later I wanted to know WHY he did it. I was nothing but good to him. He kept smiling in my face and he was cheating on me. I had no idea. He could have just ended the engagement but he decided to cheat on me.
I still find it all hard to believe. He pushed me to make plans for our wedding. He watched me put major money down to pay for things. He never said anything negative. He always talked so positive about things we would do in the future.
Maybe there is no anger now because I am just numb, lonely and depressed. I have to wonder if this is healthy. Shouldn’t blood be pouring out of my eyes? He ripped my life apart in that one night. I do think this is like PTSD. My life has been just torn to pieces. He got down on his knee and proposed to me. What kind of person does this only to end up lying and cheating? He is sick. He is very sick. The man was living two lives.
I have made progress. I no longer have this tape playing in my head on a daily basis like a song that just want stop. The rumination is over and I sleep every night. But my life has been ripped apart. What you mention about depression makes me think. Sofia I guess you could say I am depressed.
I am here alone and not sure what to do. I guess my plan is to see how I feel in six months. I was all set to get married and start a life with someone. Now, those plans are over. I am trying not to think too far ahead, but the thought of spending holidays alone is becoming real. I have to just repeat your words that this is going to be fine. I am so upset with myself. I invested all this time into him and building a business. Now, I don’t have anyone REAL here to support me. Not a single soul.
Thanks for being here. Who lives like this?
Mary Jane,
It is very possible that you are depressed and it could be a part of your grieving. So unfortunately it’s normal to be depressed too. Just watch your signs that you don’t fall low like not being able to perform the basic functions. I had cycles of depression too. They come and go. Just pay careful attention so that you are continuing taking care of yourself. It is ok to slow down and not be efficient. Work 1/2 day if you can. Give yourself a short-term leave if you can. Don’t force yourself to perform.
I will be alone during holidays too, but I am used to it. This year my daughter’s dad takes her for Christmas (last year was my time with her), so I already know the fact and face it.
Have you tried meeting people through common interests? What about your business network? Are there people that know other people? Do you have ways to build networks to meet people? I know I need to and part of my loneliness is my own responsibility. I am afraid my problem is that I feel comfortable now alone and am becoming a hermit. I have so many projects and interests. Never bored alone and always find something to do. I mostly don’t feel like having a partner anymore. I don’t want to date and am lukewarm about relationships. I think I might not be capable of trusting anymore on an intimate level. And I don’t think there is a possibility to meet anyone decent in my age group. I am 37. It’s not impossible, but it gets harder. Hopefully I have not become EU myself. The active version, not the passive one I used to be.
Don’t think about holidays for now in advance. They are still far away. You could meet interesting people before that. For now, the best thing for you, I think is to rest. Not trying to act busy and energetic or getting upset at yourself that you are depressed. Feel all your feelings through. Cry your eyes out for hours if you need to. Crying is purifying and healing. Don’t feel bad about feeling bad. Only feeling through everything can we start breaking through. That I found helpful for myself anyway. Authenticity in every step and action of our lives. Life is a natural cycle. Things change and evolve. And this phase in our life will change too. Maybe quickly, maybe will dissipate and evaporate gradually. But it will be replaced by new life, new events, new people. Nothing is permanent. We will grow, grow out of this pain and depression, become new. It takes time and pain and work. But it WILL happen.
Hi Sofia,
You have given me some sound advice. I am not going to focus on the holidays. I do have plans to go away for a change of pace. I will go on more mini vacations ALONE.
I hesitate to get involved with friendships in the business environment because that is how I earn my living. I am really strict about my business and professional worlds not merging. I do plan to go to some holiday parties and I have NEVER done that before.
Maybe I am depressed. I want feel bad about feeling bad as you suggest. besides it will only make matters worse. I agree with you on recycling it is not good. Rehashing the same old BS only keeps you stuck. Six months from now I want to tell you and Say Something that I have really moved on. Right now I am just going to let things flow.
I don’t miss him. I just need friends. No one wants to travel and continue to eat dinner alone forever. This will be different in six months. You are right I could meet new people. Who knows what is next. It is my job to fix this.
Hugs,
MJ
Mary Jane,
Good idea. I am not thinking of holidays being alone. I already know how to fill them up with the projects that I can’t during a regular weekday.
I would suggest one more thing: don’t set deadlines for yourself. I noticed in this post and previous posts you say you will feel better in “n” number of months. You will find friends in “x” number of months. That puts unnecessary pressure on you and you will get frustrated and upset at yourself if it doesn’t happen. I think the first year-two (when did that all happen?) after the breakup, don’t set any deadlines and calendar timelines. Just live it. And time will take care of you.
Sofia/Mary Jane,
I realized right away that my anger was all at myself. I didn’t and don’t hate him. I hated what he did. That he lied. That he minimized everything between us. I hate how I feel.
And like you, sweet Sofia, I was reluctant to use the word ‘trauma’ to describe what happened. Because I thought trauma was reserved for experiencing or witnessing physical or sexual abuse. BUT THEN WHY DO I FEEL SO HORRIFIC AND WHY CAN’T I SLEEP? I thought trauma at least could be *proven* with supporting, documented, tangible evidence.
It is not illegal to betray, deceive, lie, cheat, use, or manipulate someone who loves and trusts you. It’s a breakup and it happens. Get over it and move on. So says society. For me, BR is here helping to fill that gap the world does not recognize.
So if we have symptoms that resemble the aftermath of trauma bonding, PTSD, complicated grief, emotional abuse, covert manipulation, intimate betrayal, narcissistic discard, or sociopathic victimization, well yeah, that seems traumatic. And we should look at specific strategies for coping and recovering if what we are experiencing aligns with these labels. Work backwards.
And even if we don’t label *HIM* because we will never know for sure, we can know that we were involved with the wrong men. Toxic, disordered, maybe with pathological traits, but all UNAVAILABLE. Anyone who can cause this type of harm is EU. We know this from BR, and don’t have to assume once the damage has been done. At BR, thr *evidence* can be judged by action or inaction. Words matching. Good intentions and following through means everything.
I wrongly believed the wrong guy. We all trusted men who hurt us beyond anything we could ever have fathomed. Because we never thought it possible that someone we loved and trusted was capable of such cruelty. We assumed they were on our side. By our side. Not the enemy.
I too am triggered daily by reminders and I want to reach out and say ‘hey, guess what!!!’ or ‘I have something really funny to tell you!’ or ‘I really just want to see you because I had such a bad day’ or ‘what what what WHAT could have been so wrong that you never wanted to see me again?’ or just ‘I miss you’. But I don’t. Because I have learned that he will never care or understand what I feel, think, believe, want, or need. Yet I continue to struggle with accepting that he is not anything close to the man he pretended to be. Promise Breaker.
Say Something,
You said:
It is not illegal to betray, deceive, lie, cheat, use, or manipulate someone who loves and trusts you.
Anyone who does this and especially where large sums of money/wasted time/loss of sleep are involved should be taken to court. It should be illegal to BS and waste someone else’s time. FRAUD. Then maybe less people would be hurt, humiliated, demoralized and left to wonder WHY.
This has been a tough lesson for me, but I know one thing for sure. I will never have an experience like this AGAIN. Not in this lifetime. I know enough to protect myself.
MJ
Say Something,
You said, “I wrongly believed the wrong guy.” It sounds like a first step to acceptance. Very far from the best guy ever.
I avoided labeling him and my experience to avoid being stuck looking for answers. I have read numerous books and websites like you have and when I thought I had found out his secret and what exactly happened I would start doubting it all over again. It was frustrating and exhausting to figure it all out.
One thing I know for sure, thanks to BR, that I know ME and my part in it. What I did wrong, how I acted, what I expected. All of the things that I did or didn’t do I can explain to myself. I find that’s partially my acceptance: understanding myself, learning me for the first time, and forgiving myself, which is the hardest part. Not beating myself up for the mistakes I made and calling myself bad names. That’s not a way to heal and move forward. I am learning to be compassionate to myself. That’s hard too if you had never loved yourself or known yourself.
It might help you to realize that once you recognize and agree that indeed you were emotionally traumatized and the level damage that was done to you, you might be able to start coming to peace. It is like surviving an earthquake or a tornado. Crawling out, lifting your head, straightening your back after a prolonged infant like protective mode, and cleaning your eyes from all the dust and particles that prevented us from seeing. We reemerge, look at the devastation encompassing us, see it is for what it is and understand we cannot stay in this pile of mess because we might become a permanent part of this destruction. We have to start walking. Forward. To a clean, green field. With hope. Easy to say I know. I work and struggle weekly. I don’t say daily because I still have my daily struggles, which are not caused by the memory of him but my pain of what happened. I do not miss him and if I do, I don’t think I miss him. I miss what could have been and a potential companionship I thought I could have.
So look at this trauma for what it is. It might very well be your first baby step to accepting without digging more and more into the subject. Digging and looking for answers will keep us stuck. Accept that you have been hurt very much and there is no denying and minimizing it even though the rest of the world thinks we should have been over it months ago. Validate your own feelings and embrace yourself even if figuratively.
It’s hard that all of us: Mary Jane, you, and I are lonely. I too don’t have family, friends are busy, and people are texting and busy generally. Thank God I have my daughter.
I know we are steering away very far from the topic of the post, so I will just finish my long reply here. I do come back to BR and read regularly just don’t post as frequently. I find that I recycle again all over and dwell if I post on particular subject.
There is one thing that could help all of us who are lonely and miss love and companionship: is to help others and give them our love. I haven’t done so and only thought of it. This is an opportunity for me to grow, for I am too of a baby and making shallow steps as far as spiritual health concerned. Concentrating solely on oneself will not take us very far. That keeps us engulfed in ourselves and stuck. Helping others and giving love: creates love and companionship that we are seeking and missing. Something to think about…
Sonia, your comments about reaching out and helping others is very wise indeed. I remember something that helped me on my worst nights when I was lying in bed in the dark, obsessing over myself and my hurts and my losses and sinking deeper into this terribly small world of my own pain – I started to pray for other people. First I prayed for people I knew, then for other women hurting over broken relationships like I was, then praying for anyone hurt and alone. As this practice grew and developed, it gave me (and still gives me) a lot of peace and helps me break out of the prison of endlessly thinking about myself. I encourage anyone who is stuck in this engulfed self to give this kind of practice a try.
Wiser, yes, I have the same experience too. When I switch my focus from me, which is very good and needed but to a certain extent, and think of other people, pray for them, listen to them, empathize with them, I start understanding that we all carry a lot of pain. This is not to minimize our pain and say, “Oh some people are much worse off,” it is rather to get out of your own shell and reach out to the world. I am working on it. I am noticing the danger of becoming isolated and too focused on me. It’s important to reach out without expecting anything back. I have been thinking of what I said in the last couple days: about loneliness, isolation, and focus on ourselves, and realize that we need to practice growing love from giving love to others. I think it’s a road to recovery, peace, and content. Love yourself, but not in isolation. Love others. Help when you can, whether in prayer or in deed. I too, Wiser, noticed, that no matter how bad I felt, when I shifted my focus onto someone else, by giving and sharing the compassion and love, I feel the relief and peace coming over me. When we are hurting we are withdrawn and into ourselves and even though it helps on some level to take care of us, it keeps us stuck in the inner world of us. We are human beings and connected to others. It makes sense that helping others through their problems and others relieve theirs and our burden at the same time. We are interconnected on some level.
Ditto. Reaching out to others is healing in its own way.
Say Something, I haven’t had a chance to forge a friendship with you but hope that you will read my post in the right spirit. Why are you thinking about the EUM and his actions, when you have such a wide circle of friends in here on BR? I am no expert here either but I have found it more helpful to focus on what aspect of the other guy highlighted a blind spot within me that was revealed in my interactions with him. In other words, what does this say about my own interactions with me? Sometimes we learn to love ourselves only through the love of another person–is that what your inner voice is trying to tell you?
In my case, what it told me was that I am not being a good friend to myself validating my own emotions and treating my needs with respect. I was giving him a lot of attention too much, too early. It helped me become mindful of how I was using his attention to make me feel good about myself. So I had to retreat and learn to become my own oasis. Losing myself in a relationship was just not acceptable. And I had to learn to give myself plenty of healthy self love.
I wanted to reach out to you with plenty of hugs, Sonja, Mary Jane – because you all are so phenomenal about giving good advice to others. And yet at times we can be so stingy when extending the same self compassion towards ourselves. Our stories may be all different but it is so nice to connect with kindred spirits. Know that you are not alone either.
Just wanted to share an Aha moment I had with myself. Right since childhood we girls are conditioned to think about marriage via the messages bombarded at us unconsciously (fairy-tales, doll-marriages, chick-flicks). and yet how many times do they tell us when you find your life purpose, your own bliss everything else flows to you almost naturally? Why don’t they tell girls to choose their own dreams first instead of filling their young minds with marriage as the ultimate goal? Don’t get me wrong – am not against marriage. But we can only love another person once we learn to love ourselves fully.
That’s what am focusing on, my own personal state of happiness and creating a fulfilling, enriching life that makes me feel fully alive. It’s sometimes hard to remember to do that. But am committed to doing so. And if you are willing, it would be great to do that as a group.
I have done a lot of self inventories over the past couple of months, even prior to this relationship. It’s possible that I may occasionally slip but as long as I am mindful about it, I will be alright. And I think the same is true about all of us in here too. We are not damaged just because we went through a few bad episodes along the way.
I recently took a happiness ecourse and it made a huge difference in my outlook. We attract what we gravitate towards. I would rather consider happy fulfilling experiences I can have on a day to day basis, than keep rehashing the past. It is now dead and buried. Today is a new day. It doesn’t mean that I do not get low at times (I do) but it does mean that I can choose different ways of coping without allowing myself to get back into old ruts of thinking.
The relationships we get into allow us to know how we could treat ourselves better and heal ourselves emotionally, so that we can give ourselves the self love and self respect. And once we learn to do that (am a work in progress-not there yet), we would gravitate to healthy guys who reciprocate similarly.
And who knows, one of us can be like Natalie saying, if I can do it, so can you!
Hi Julianne,
You wrote: “We attract what we gravitate towards.”
So I thought. But not so. I wasn’t looking for what I ended up with. Not at all. So why do I keep my focus on that? It’s just the horror show, constantly replaying in my head, that I never meant to watch in the first place. It’s what wakes me up every night so I can never forget. I can fake being fine with the outside world. It’s really hard to fake myself out though!
Hey there SaySomething. You asked a very loaded question, am not sure if I can put my point across in a few words but will make an attempt. What I may say in here may feel a bit painful to read, but am hoping it allows you to connect a bit deeper with your own self.
The ones who find good healthy relationships are those who practice a healthy relationship with their own inner being. That is why it is easier for them to detect early signs of disrespect, untrustworthy behavior and BS in other people.
I admire your courage in sharing your struggles because that for me was very hard to do. Am not an advocate of faking either. In order to experience true happiness, you will have to allow yourself to express all of your emotions, positive and negative included. It’s more important to be authentic than to fake a feeling that doesn’t connect from within. You will first have to be able to practice healthy self attitudes despite all the good, bad and ugly stuff that can happen on the outside.
Am speaking from my personal experience here YMMV. Many of us have spent a lifetime having our needs neglected and in denial that it doesn’t matter. What those feelings are, are not as much how the guy treated you but your inner child wanting to connect with you for a greater solidarity. Before we can connect with someone to be there during the good and bad times, we need to dive in deeper and connect with our own inner child so that we can create a cocoon of safe zone within ourselves.
Most of us can fake at a superficial level. What we project subconsciously can only be seen in our interactions with others. By that what I mean, if most of the guys or the most recent guy who hurt you badly treated you in a certain disrespectful way, it mirrors your own behavior towards yourself. Especially if you find yourself constantly wanting to reach out to them. The question to ask yourself is, “Why do I want to spend time thinking about someone who doesn’t treat me well?”
If you allow yourself to sit still and do nothing, those memories will also reflect back to you previous memories of similar incidents that you glossed over in denial. So when reflecting, you will have to allow all of those memories to come to the surface, to grieve the pain, to grieve for the inner child and talk to it saying ‘I was then young and unknowing of how to take care of myself. Now I am an adult and will take good care of you.’ That’s the first step. Write things down so that you can take it out on paper and then shred them.
“I can fake being fine with the outside world. It’s really hard to fake myself out though!”
Exactly. why are you faking with yourself anyway? That’s why you were unable to recognize signs of inauthenticity with others. Be true to you. Embrace who you are, warts, glorious gifts and all.
You know you are done reflecting when those memories no longer have a hold over you. Ask yourself ‘what is it that I need to learn from this?’ ‘How can I be good to myself?’ See your coping mechanisms. From what you say, during times of intense pain you tend to want to reach out to this guy (and away from your own pain). Instead what if you reached out to your own inner voice and did nothing to blunt the pain. Don’t use any coping mechanism like watching tv, aimless internet surfing or any like activity. Instead own what you feel and stick with it. Take deep breaths and put yourself in a quiet space. Tell yourself ‘I am always going to be here for me, during tough times and good. I am not feeling good right now but it is not always going to be this way.’ Emotions ebb and flow. You will find that when you accept those feelings rather than avoid what comes up, they tend to subside on their own.
Hope this helps. Lots of hugs.
Thank you Julianne,
I guess when I talk about faking, I’ve learned that in order to survive in this world, I have to play ‘nice.’ And oh, how I hate the word NICE. Nice is manipulative, secretive, and carries an agenda.
So many times, I’ve been the voice that goes against the status quo. That has tried to stand up for myself, or a friend. That acknowledges an unfair practice. That wants another opinion. That asks for clarification. That questions a policy. That uncovers a truth. Never without reason or merit. This has been me. People don’t like it. I have lost friends and jobs. I’ve been deleted from email lists and kicked off teams. I was served divorce papers. I have learned the consequences of being authentic. People don’t like it. Even if I express my thoughts with tact and compassion. Maybe it’s been a moral, legal, safety, emotional, or factual concern. People just don’t like it. STFU and don’t rock the boat. If you step out of line, you’re OUT. And I’ve stepped out of line because I’ve been in the wrong line.
At the end of my BGE relationship, I (wrongly) thought he genuinely wanted to know my answer to his question as it pertained to us:
BGE: What do YOU want, SS?
Me: I want you in my life. I want you to be a priority.
BGE: I’m not there yet.
Translation: It never mattered what I wanted. I was NEVER going to be a priority, even though he PRETENDED that I was, and made sure that I believed so for almost six months. Every.single.day. According to that statement, I made up the entire relationship in my head. He was NICE.
Say Something, there is a great article right now at Getting Past Your Breakup that made me think of you, and I believe it might be helpful for you as it’s all about how to “Reject your Rejector” and reclaim your power!
Wiser,
Wow. Brutal but real. Many things the article and embedded link: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/getting-back-out-there/201506/when-the-person-you-love-doesnt-love-you
say are things I believe. I just haven’t fully applied these beliefs. But I GET IT. The last time I ever wrote to him (almost a year ago) I told him I know I shouldn’t have to convince him of anything. And I wrote that I would tell myself EVERYDAY that he picked someone else. Yes, I GET IT. I guess I haven’t accepted it.
Thank you. I need to read those both again and again.
MJ/Sofia/Wiser,
Yes my part was believing him and assuming that he meant what he said. I did not consider that his words could have been empty, shape-shifting, manipulative tactics. I still haven’t accepted that he was capable of such covert selfishness. But I know how it impacted me.
Reaching out and helping others. I do it like it’s my job. It IS my job. How can we reach MORE people? What evidence will support our program impact? Make a difference. Help others. Everyday. Giving, helping, and volunteering is good. I give everyday as a parent.
I finally realized a few years ago (hello, divorce) that I needed something for myself too, and so I struggle now. Because had I not decided that I NEEDED SOMETHING FOR MYSELF, that I just might need/want something just for me, well then I wouldn’t be here questioning why it hurts so much.
NML wrote: ” We cloak ourselves in illusions and then feel deeply pained, confused and disillusioned when we have to come back to earth and deal with issues that cannot be ignored against the backdrop of the reality of what we’re experiencing.”
My reality is the result of believing and trusting the wrong guy and the illusion of him. I wore it well, like it was cutsom-fit just for me. Exactly what I was looking for. The person I had waited all my life to meet. Finally, It’s OK to have someone in my life that likes me too. It’s OK. But NO. It wasn’t. It was back-stabbingly, heart-wrenchingly wrong.
I ASSUMED that somewhere in this world I’d meet the right person, and that I am someone who could be liked and valued by (just) one other person. So far, my assumption here is wrong. I see Sofia’s point about being a hermit. And I understand when MJ says that nobody is cheating on her right now. Is it wrong to assume that someone could like me (for real and not fake)? Is THIS the belief that I wrongly hold?
I’m going to keep fake-smiling when I don’t feel like it. I have stopped talking, many months ago, about how I really feel, except here on BR, to one LD friend, and to a therapist. I’ve shut that down. But I’m going to scale back even more on believing that there is someone who is compatible with me. I have to find more alone things that fulfill me, and I’ve run out. I feel like I must force myself to do more alone-ness things, when I know I want the exact opposite.
Say Something, there is someone out there compatible with you and you deserve respect and love of a decent man. The problem though it’s like a lottery I guess. Or fate. I don’t know what it is. We might never meet the person. Or maybe next year or in 10 years. I do believe there are people compatible with us somewhere out there. They are maybe wondering the same thing right now. For whatever reason we might never meet them or sometime later. It doesn’t mean we are not worthy or capable. It’s just how life plays out. Some people get coupled, some people don’t. Why? I don’t know. I am at this point in my life when I am tired trying. In my heart though, like never before, I do have a hope that I will meet a good man and very importantly I know exactly what kind of person I need and how he will treat me and if he doesn’t I prefer being alone. So I don’t think my hope is gone, but I refuse living a half-life, waiting and looking. I have to build from what I have now and here with me.
Basically, we are trying to control the uncontrollable. We don’t know. It’s not our fault we are single and the last significant relationship did not work out. Life doesn’t have a scenario and some people stay single. There is no answer why. I am accepting that’s what it is for me. Still learning and am looking at this from a spiritual point of view. We just can’t control certain situations in our lives.
Sofia, I am really enjoying your comments! Because I think you are spot on. Your post could be mine. Reminds me of this graphic I saw recently, of a Buddhist monk sitting by a river very serene and happy – and the caption was “Relax – Everything is Out of Control!” A wonderful reminder of how much happier I am when I surrender this illusion that I am in control, that sometimes the greatest gift is NOT getting what I want, and how life is a wonderful mystery where anything can still happen.
The ending of my last relationship felt like a cruel blow from the universe, like happiness was dangled in front of me like a romantic carrot and then was snatched out of reach by a sadist God who cackled “Too bad, no happiness for you!”
But how do I know that God instead wasn’t saving me from even more unhappiness with this guy who I can now see from the perspective of time and distance, was NOT RIGHT FOR ME. We don’t know what’s best for us.
Like you I still have hope, and also like you I’m not waiting around and pining for Mr. Wonderful to come through the door. If he appears, fine; if not, fine. As far as I’m concerned the only philosophy to adopt in order to be truly joyful in life is “I can be happy no matter what happens.”
And also, as a good friend (who has a wonderful, dark sense of humor) said to be when I was bemoaning the fact that I would never meet anyone, it was over, it was too late, and I “knew” that as a fact… “Well, you’re not dead yet.” 🙂
Wiser, there was no button to Reply under your post, so I am replying under my own post and above yours. I hope you will find it. I too feel like I wrote what you wrote! It gave me goosebumps. That’s my philosophy and outlook as well but in progress. I am working on it but finally aware.
That’s what I think as well: this person is out of my life for a reason. I could not understand it at first. It is all coming together as a puzzle/plan only now. I was in fact protected by removal of this person out of my life. He was not good for my daughter and me. It was and is painful, I went through betrayal and made a mistake that I will always regret, but all these things that happened have led me to where I am now. I won’t go into theological discussions to remain neutral on this blog and not upset other people. I will just say that I completely agree with you and know exactly what you mean. All the troubles and pain that we go through in this life are meant for our own good. It’s a hard concept to grasp. You know the story of the vineyards and pruning the vine. Restricting its nourishment and water, cutting off unnecessary branches, leaves, and even berries, so that the next harvest is much better, richer, and concentrated. The same with people.
That’s where I derive my acceptance and learning forgiveness for myself. It is an every day work. It was a joy reading your post, Wiser. And yes, absolutely true! We are not dead yet. We can meet a wonderful friend or a partner tomorrow. Land a great job next month. You just never know. I believe we can try our part in some things, but ultimately we do surrender and accept and learn. This belief and philosophy, along with BR reading, have sustained me throughout these difficult but fulfilling months of growth. BR is my self-support, so to speak, and my faith is my backbone, my foundation.
Hi Mary Jane,
I have missed hearing from you too! I thought about you when reading what Hans wrote. Yes, I did. Our experiences do make us so sensitive to everything going on around us. No blind spots, but rather hot spots! You hone in on hearing wedding plans. It’s a zinger to the heart. I was at an event the other day attended by 20 adults including me. (yes I went home and made a list. I hate lists.) EVERYONE there but me and one woman who barely stayed was married. E-V-E-R-Y ONE. And that other woman is in a relationship. I feel like I don’t fit in. And then this wknd I was at a friend’s who had a few other guests over. As my friend and I were talking, she commented that we ” probably needed some time to talk about husbands.” WTF and why did she assume I was married? I just reacted, and blurted out, “I have nothing good to say about husbands.” Also this wknd another woman referred to my ex-H as my husband. I IMMEDIATELY corrected her. Also last week I was at a work training. The trainer’s presentations for our activities included mock situations. All these scenarios we had to relate to referenced “you and your partner”. I wanted to throw up. And scream. And leave. Even in professional trainings, let’s just assume everyone has a partner. Nice.
I’ve always been so tuned in to know that no, not every adult is part of a wonderful couple. Not every child has two parents around. Not every high school graduate is planning to go to college. Not every promise will be kept. Not everyone is motivated by the same thing. Not everyone who seeks charity is lazy. Not everyone wearing a smile is necessarily happy. But people make assumptions all the time. I still take it very personally, especially when the comment includes me or is directed at me. I guess much of that is unaware people projecting… Oh, everyone is just like me.
Here are two articles that impacted me this week. You quoted Brené Brown previously, and so did this first article.
http://psychopathsandlove.com/betrayal/
http://www.billmcdonaldonline.com/newsletter/11/april/index.html
I haven’t been able to hear the podcasts yet because my phone is aging and uncooperative. And I hold onto this stupid phone because it contains all the texts that tell the story of my un-doing. I know. I know.
Say Something,
I enjoyed reading the articles you shared. I sort of went back into this cycle of wanting to know WHY. I just cant figure out WHY he did this. Honestly, I am sitting here in the house crying tonight. I don’t want him back. It just hurts me that I did RIGHT by him and he effed me over royally. I was with him longer than some people are married. This is just going to take time to heal.
There is just no time frame on healing. I have purposefully not tried to date again. I am terrified to go down this path again. How long does it take for a man to flip out on you? Start cheating and lying.
I know it is tough being single in a room full of married people. It just makes you yearn for that someone. The best thing about being single is – nobody is cheating on me. I am still healing and glad I never got married. If I had I would be on BR crying about having to dump my husband because he cheated.
I just want my life back-the way I was before I woke up to this whole nightmare.
MJ
Hi MJ,
I think that wanting to know is a fallout of betrayal and the immeasurable disappointment of having the person you most trusted and most cared about being the person who also breaks you. It’s powerful. It lingers. And it taunts, this “not knowing”.
I don’t want to “date”. I want to share my life with someone. I feel like wanting to have this is the most selfish, unattainable, complicated thought I can have.
Yes, MJ, nobody is cheating or breaking promises. It’s just the same old nightmare on replay. We will never have the same life back. And even though it wasn’t intentional, we will now be SO aware and we’ll notice things that others won’t. We’ll sense the happiness of others and feel our sadness. We’ll hear a woman happily planning her wedding and remember the dress we didn’t get to wear and the guests that never came. We’ll notice the woman in front of us in an auditorium, as she rests her head on her partner’s shoulder, and we’ll look at the vacant seat beside us and feel the emptiness. We’ll hear those songs on the radio that used to make us smile or sing along, that instead remind us that things are just different now. Those Christmas cards and vacation photos will still appear, highlighting the love, fun, and sharing of other couples and families. People don’t send pictures of themselves alone. We will feel the sting. There is happiness happening all around us and we want to participate in this wonderful life. And we do. We do it alone. Again. And again. But something is missing. So we HAVE to have hope that we will be able to feel that complete sense of joy and comfort again. That feeling of not wanting to change a thing instead of wanting everything to change.
So right now. Today. Nobody is cheating on us. Nobody is setting us up just to tear us down. There are no promise breakers in our lives. We have to make our own promises, to ourselves. And keep them. We promise ourselves that we won’t give up.
Hi Say Something,
I read the article again about the psychopaths. This label is fitting for him because no one normal would invest this kind of time in a relationship only to do something shady to someone they claim to love.
I like what you said about wanting to share your life with someone and not date. That is not selfish. You should have that. I would love to have that too.
Do you ever wonder how long you can sustain being in your current state? I do. There are days that I wonder when things will really change. I have noticed some changes but I need to see more. I have said it before I don’t want to spend the holidays alone, but that is the way things will be this year.
For now I think it is a good idea to try to find ways to enjoy myself alone during the holidays like I did this Summer. I am just tired of doing things alone.
MJ
Yes sometimes people can be quite insensitive without realizing it.
I connected with your post because your pain resonated with me. it truly is tough-heartbreaking even to hear of others going through positive experiences in the midst of our own turbulent times.
I don’t know if it helps, but am learning to re-frame my thinking as ‘me and my future partner-the one who will treat me with lots of respect and affection’. If they can have those happy experiences, I can do too. It takes time and a lot of efforts for those messages to sink in. Hang in there.
Before this recent guy, used to think finding the right person is all we need. But what am realizing we need the kind of person who knows how to hang in there when the times get tough. It’s sustaining the relationship through highs and lows that is really tough. Can’t say I was a role model in this area, but now that am realizing my own blind-spots, am learning to let go of movie role models and look at real men in marriage as clear examples. I let the fantasy of a perfect relationship fool me, and learning that even those in happy marriages have their own share of highs and lows too. It is a process of getting there over the years.
(so sorry for the long post in here). I guess in a nutshell what boundaries do I need to establish in this relationship to know if he deserves a chance or let him go?
Hi Julianne
if I may be so bold as to offer my experience and insights on boundaries. I have the unfortunate knack of choosing the wrong person to be with and letting that person treat me like dirt time and again. Therefore, I had to sit myself down and tell myself that I am not going to get involved into a relationship where I have to go home and agonise over stuff that happened between us, ever again.
And the thing about boundaries are, I sometimes catch myself reverting back to my old unhealthy habits. So, for me, it is almost like a constant work in progress.
My boundaries are:
mutual respect, love and care (taken directly from Nat’s posts.)
ANd no getting involved with people going through tough times.
ANd taking things slowly; no impulsive rushes which feels unnatural.
And great friendship and a natural, lasting feeling of being comfortable around a person.
The moment one have to start making serious compromises or tolerate stuff that makes you feel sad, red lights must start flickering. We deserve better.
Wow, those were epiphanies to me. The “no getting involved with people going through tough times” was a revelation. I also liked how you referred to “a great friendship and a natural, lasting feeling of being comfortable around a person.” I was blinded by the potential of how things could evolve to be rather than focus on how things really are.
Setting boundaries and figuring out what are my primary needs have been areas I have neglected. It was a bit confusing since I used to think of boundaries as screening out as opposed to having an open heart.
In addition, I got to be honest that I too made the mistake of hoping that loving someone will help me feel whole and happy again. I can’t believe that after all the self work am still back to square one. I have so much more to learn about relationships. A sobering thought. Thanks so much Hans for weighing in with your opinions.
Hi you all. I have a small question, maybe someone can help me out. I was dating this married man for over 2 years, it was really horrible. He had all the bad EUM symptoms. I left home 5 times to come live here but each time returned back home, because het also missed that and the wife and daughters put pressure on him. After 2 years I really broke with him. I saw I was serious and after 2 months he stood back at my doorstep with all of his stuff. After long talks and fixed agreements about how I would like to have the relationship we started back together. Now he is getting a divorce and their house is on the marked. But, and here is the catch. You doesn’t stick to our agreements. I give you an example, the wife want to talk how they will work things out in the future so they plan to go out for dinner. (although we agreed on only having clear practical contact with the wife and no coffee’s and dinners together, maybe even just for the first 6 months, just to make things clear). Now, is this a problem that I don’t like this? I understand that I should respect their long marriage of 40 years and that he still has a connection with her and some responsibilities. On the other hand, the wife keeps fighting for him and he keeps playing the nice guy. For the rest our relationship is going really well, he treats me good and is honest. Do I need to sit this one out our do I need to put my foot down concerning the agreements we made? Only because of does agreements I took him back.
Omg I made a lot of typing mistakes. 🙂 “I left home’ should have been ‘he left home’ and ‘I saw I was’ should be ‘he saw I was’ … sorry
Omg, I was so happy when I first began to date my ex. He was clean cut, didn’t smoke or take drugs, not a big drinker, didn’t hang out in bars, was a 46 year old virgin which I liked initially because I knew he was disease free, he was a homebody & had 3 sisters.He was shy & had never had a gf b4. Then the truth all came out & the shit hit the fan. He had no friends, he was socially inept, he was a cross dresser, addicted to porn, had an obsession with locks & keys,& had the audacity to tell me that he wanted someone younger & slimmer & that he wasn’t attracted to me. He had really low self esteem & his dead father was an alcoholic
& found out his dead mother treated him like a mama’s boy. But oh no, I was going
to love him & fix him & he’d be eternally grateful, right? Nope! I tried to convince myself that sitting around watching t.v. all the time wasn’t so bad, that at least we were together. And so what if he hadn’t taken his profile down from POF, he was always with me anyways. And it’s okay that no one at his work knows about me, he’ll come around. He finally after 46 years is in a relationship, so he’ll be forevef indebted to me & we’ll live happily ever after! Aftef boosting his ego, all it did for me was get the attitude from him wax that he could do so much better than me. Blind? Yup, I sure was living in denial. Sad for myself that I didn’t love myself enough. Trying to heal now. Thank God I am not wadting any more of my time & energy on one of the biggest losers I have ever met!