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In this episode of The Baggage Reclaim Sessions, I talk about recognising the difference between someone who wants to know that they can get your attention versus someone who is genuine in their intentions to love you.
Partly inspired by my love of the Charlie Puth song, ‘Attention’ where he sings, ‘You just want attention, you don’t want my heart, maybe you just hate the thought of me with someone new, you just want attention, I knew from the start, you’re just making sure I’m never getting over you’, I feel that this is such an important topic because so many people get stuck in a cycle of either trying to get someone’s attention or falling for someone else’s attention-seeking moves.
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Listener questions can be emailed to podcast AT baggagereclaim DOT com and if there’s a topic you’d love me to talk about, let me know!
Nat xxx
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Hi Natalie,
good podcast. I’m curious – have you any experience of what the attention-seeker has to say for themselves in this kind of scenario? Do they actually see themselves as the ‘bad-guy’, and consciously enjoy the fact they are causing pain? Or do they shrug it off and justify it to themselves as ‘no big deal’, all just a bit of fun?
I know that what is going on in the mind of the attention-seeker shouldn’t really come into things – it’s the *effect* that matters, and it’s entirely in the control of the other party to not respond. But I’m interested in the other side of the story, as it just is so grim to think that there are people walking amongst us, engaging with us in every day life in such a callous, calculating, cruel way – but it’s sort of hidden, if you see what I mean. I question my own sanity to think ‘oh, I must be taking things too seriously’ if I sit and think ‘omg they are contacting me even know they KNOW how painful it is, just because they want to check I’m still on the hook’. It’s upsetting to realise how unkind that is, but also how everyday and mundane it is – it is behaviour that just seems to be completely accepted by the world , ‘oh it’s the girl’s fault if she gets too invested’, ok the man might be a little off but it’s just high jinks, no big deal….
Thoughts??
Thanks 🙂 xx
I could not agree with u more. I have gone nuts asking myself the same things. What is he thinking? Doesn’t he know he is being a jerk and treating my like this? Why? Why does he think I will accept it?
I thought this was a really superb podcast. Thank you.
I like that this podcast focuses on the disfunction on both sides.
I think most of us who have been on the receiving end of this know that it makes no sense to want someone to get in touch, when we know from past experience that this person is either only after sex, or simply fishing for any response from us, in order to boost their own ego.
Natalie nailed it by saying that it’s due to being unable to let go of the false hope that maybe next time we will get a different outcome with this person.
I am a total persimist and assume the worst about most situations, so it’s bizarre that I cannot be realistically pessimistic about the fact that an EUM will behave like an EUM, this time, next time and every time.
How aptly timed. I’ve been in a stupidly disfunctional relationship for four years which never progressed past friendship and ended up with him not even bothering to be polite. And last week he moved away so now is exactly the time to do what I wouldn’t before and look at the reasons I continued to play a part in it long past the time when I got anything good back. Thank you.
I really loved the one-topic format of this episode, and appreciate the insights I gained while listening. I have a lot to feel into.
I eventually figured out that my EUM was manipulative and attention seeking, but I never considered that my addiction to the cycle of push-pull involved MY attention seeking as well. Duh.I thought that I was wanting love (and ultimately that IS what I want and need), but I am seeing that I was also high on the attention, and confusing it with love. My ex EUM could make me feel so good, and powerful, and special, and I was so confused about how someone that was so attracted and into me in all of these ways, had no real desire to love or respect me, and no desire for a mutual relationship. I have been seeing attention as coming from love, but now I am sseeing how attention can really come from unfilled needs that are trying to get met. I mistakingly assumed that the ex EUM’s attention meant that he was capable for loving me, but that fact is that he never even TRULY and CONSISTENTLY gave me his attention. It was only as suited his agenda. This man loathed himself, and so it is now pretty clear to me why he sought my attention. I think he liked the potential that I saw in him. And I think he wanted to be that person, and to believe in himself the way that I believed in him. And I think he DID think I was pretty great, attractive, and he saw my strength of my character. But I was “other” to him. Ultimately he lacked integrity and character. He avoided responsibility by claiming that my standards and expectations were too high. He was only willing to relate to me on his terms. And so I let him have the last word and stopped seeking his attention, which felt good because he had always been the one to withdraw first.
Now I do see ways that I gave my attention to him because I wanted to feel attended to and validated in return (by someone who is incapable or not interested in really seeing or understanding me, say what??). And I do wonder if he had given me the consistent love and attention that I so badly wanted, whether I would have still wanted the commitment that I thought I did with him. I honestly don’t think there is any way to know. It was always a dead end road, and I think I knew it. So why did I put myself in that position? Why did I need his love and attention so badly?
I do have a fear of hurting the people I am involved with, because I have been accused of being hurtful by past boyfriends ( one in particular… because I broke up with them, and they didn’t want to break up. They didn’t handle it well and accused me of “throwing them out like trash”). So my pattern has actually involved being with anxious, clingy men in relationships where I am suffocated and miserable, and staying in it waaaaaay too long because of not wanting to hurt the other person, and feeling over responsible for their feelings. With these past relationships, I got loads of attention but felt smothered, and felt the need to constantly distance myself in the relationship (classically avoidant). I actually became disgusted by their attention and didn’t want it. This EUM was a completely new experience for me, and at first it felt good to not be chased or smothered. It was refreshing. At the time I was still recovering from a trauma/ rape situation, and my sense of self, my trust in people and relationships, and my sense of safety in general was shakey. This EUM had a HORRIFIC infancy and childhood history, and because of my own history of trauma, I felt a sense of understanding with him. It also stimulated my sense of over-responsibility and fear of eventually rejecting and hurting him. I remember when I first started to feel real love and care for him, silently praying that he would not love me, so that I would never have to hurt him. (I know, seriously fucked up martyr complex, right? It’s embarrassing to admit). I remember having this moment, this fear that I would reject him if he ever really pursued me… Because that’s been most of my relationships. But as I continued dating him, after a few months on the roller coaster of intermittent attention and rejection, poor behavior, and a whole lot of red flags, I completely lost my mind over this man who had zero capacity for a real, mutual relationship. It took me 1.5 years of engaging in this painful and fear based non-relationship to realize it was NOT what I wanted or deserved, and to finally go NC.
I had moments of falling off the wagon, but It’s been a year and a half since I’ve seen him. It’s been the slowest relationship recovery process that I’ve ever experienced, and I’m still in an incredible amount of pain over the “loss” of this person, the feelings of rejection, and the fact that I let myself be disrespected for so long. I haven’t felt the desire to date or seek attention since. I am only recently feeling like I may be open to dating soon.
All of this dysfunction is definitely rooted in my childhood, in which many of my emotional needs went completely unmet (completely unseen, actually) and I either felt starved for my parents’ attention, even when they were right in front of me, or smothered (by the structures and expectations in my family). The hardest part for me is clearly recognizing my pattern, since my relationships have all been quite different from one another. I guess the thread has been insecure relationships where the person is incapable of truly seeing me – either because they are infatuated, dependant and not really seeing me for me, and not really caring about my needs (my need to not be in the relationship, for example – OR because they are completely avoidant, dissmissive, EU, and incapable for meeting anyone for a mutual relationship. I’ve been reading about attchment theory and Anxious, Avoidant, and Fearful attachment types, and trying to find my way towards Secure. Anyways, I really appreciate the food for thought and space to share here!
A.E.C,
So glad you posted this. A lot of what you have said applies to me, I just never realised it. But seeing it there in your words has been really helpful.
Heartbroken (and CLR!),
I’m glad to hear that my words were helpful. It’s amazing how words and language can help to mentally structure and understand experiences on a whole new level… It’s like “yes, that’s similar to what I am experiencing! I get it, it makes sense, and now I have a context with which to work with it”. Just having the words really helps to make sense of what we are feeling AND connects us to each other. Reading peoples comments on here has definitely helped me see that we not alone in our relationship experiences, and that in itself has been one of the most healing things ? <3
A.E.C.,
Thank you so much for taking the time to write your story. It mirrors my own story in so many ways and doesn’t make me feel so alone in my process.
I spent 21 months in a very toxic, dysfunctional relationship that depleted me physically, emotionally, and spiritually. I have never experienced pain to that level when I ended the relationship (I didn’t even experience that level pain after my divorce). I ended the relationship 15 months ago and have been strict NC the day I ended it. I saw him for the first time a couple of weeks ago at a local event. I completely ignored him and did not make eye contact with him. I found him completely unattractive and thought to myself, “I can not believe I spent almost 2 years with that douche bag.” So I can’t figure out why I still struggle with feeling “stuck” at times. I don’t have feelings of pain or numbness anymore, but I still have consuming thoughts of him or the relationship at times. I don’t want to be in a relationship with him and I don’t wear “rose-tinted glasses” in regards to him. I see him for the person he really is; a narcissistically-inclined, man-child who lives on ME island. He has a harem of women, including most of his ex-girlfriends. He is your quintessential “attention whore” who loves Facebook. I mistook his attention for love, his intensity for intimacy. I realize growing up with parents who basically ignored me and couldn’t be bothered with me led me to mistakes these feelings.
Jut like in your story, the ex AC is not capable of any real emotions. His affect was the same all the time. He showered with me attention on his terms or when he needed something from me, like watching his kids or taking care of his mom who had Alzheimer’s. During times of intimacy, there was absolutely no feeling or emotion. I don’t think it would have mattered if I was even there. Towards the end, sex became something he would withhold from me and it all was a game to him.
I have spent 20+ years in basically the same relationships, but different packages. But this last relationship was the icing on the cake. The amount of manipulation and mind games reallly took a toll on me. He uses people as a means to end and looks at every situation as to what he could gain from it. He even turned his mother’s death into an opportunity for himself (having people contribute to a charity so he could gain free entry into a marathon unbeknownst to them).
I have not dated since the relationship ended, and have not had a desire to. I have really worked on myself, my issues, and becoming a healthy individual. I go through phases where I feel like I’m in a good place and then all of the sudden I feel “stuck” again. I really am trying to figure this out because I don’t want to feel “stuck” anymore. He’s not worth the energy or the mind space. I do know that 100%.
So thank you again for sharing your story and helping me feel not so alone in this journey.
CLR –
I can definitely relate to the feeling of KNOWING that the man or relationship is toxic and no good, but STILL being STUCK in the thoughts or the feelings around it. Ultimately I think only you can feel into your own “stuckness”, but I do have some ideas based on my own experiences”
First, I think that it is very natural (albeit annoying) to feel stuck as part of the process of grieving after a toxic/painful/anxious relationship. It can take time for the head and heart to see eye to eye and find acceptance. It’s also hard if your ego was really involved (as it is when you are competing for the AC’s attention), and as a result, your sense of self and worth was wrapped up in them and the relationship. At that point we are not just grieving the AC or EUM, but our LOST SELVES as well. And that can take some work and FEELING into in order to reclaim ourselves.
Sometimes when I find my mind drifting back to the EUM, the new GF who he appears to be giving everything that he wouldn’t/couldn’t give me, and the relationship in general – I realize that it is all really a distraction from having to face my own biggest fears and perfectionism, and responsibility to live my own potential, which for some reason terrifies me. And I have nobody to blame but myself. I see my needs, desires, potential, what I really want to DO in my life to feel fulfilled… but I still feel frozen, exhausted, ineffective. And then it’s back to thinking about the ex, because it’s a distraction. But I just stay patient and keep walking, keep trying to do little things every day (which add up) because I figure that if I’m at least going in the right direction and trying my hardest, and acknowledging what is really important to me, that I’ll get there eventually.
There is also the factor of our attachment systems. If this relationship linked to an early childhood wound, I think that is another reason you may feel stuck for longer. Some of this stuff goes really deep. Our whole fight or flight stress response is activated in certain relationships where early childhood wounds are stimulated. We may decide to let go of an AC, and even though that is the best course of action for our wellbeing, the reptilian brain literally can’t tell the difference between the AC and our parent (if the dynamics mirror each other). On a certain subconscious level, it feels like we are somehow being abandoned or neglected all over again, or whatever the original wound is. When I see even a picture of the EUM I feel my whole body go into fight or flight, heart racing, dizziness, nausea, sometimes can’t eat for days. It’s seriously messed up, and it’s so strong that I know it’s not just about the EUM. It’s about what he represents. And it’s so important to be patient and compassionate towards yourself if this is the case.
I don’t know if any of that resonates with you…. The fact that you stepped away from this toxic relationship and have made a commitment to doing right by you is huge. Be gentle with yourself and know that you are not alone in what you are feeling. Everyone has different emotional needs and processes, and sometimes it takes longer than we expect to recover, especially if we are the type to try to jump ahead with our minds, trying to out-think ourselves, but not realizing that our hearts still need time to feel and grieve. There is a book called “Care of the Soul” by Thomas Moore, where he suggests that it is part of the soul’s work process to feel “stuck” at times.
Sometimes you gotta just stop, breathe, and focus attention on your body for a few minutes. Feel your body expand and contract with your breath. What sensations are you feeling? What does your body want to say? What emotions are there? Have you been pushing down or avoiding anything? If so, what is it? The body is like a dream, if you listen to it the right way, it can give a lot of information. Sometimes the reason we feel stuck is because we don’t want to listen, or we are afraid to feel what is really going on with us. And sometimes is just a matter of patience and continuing to live as best we can.
Wishing you the very best in your healing process <3
AEC- i understand the fight or flight reaction. I would have to see the EU MM almost daily. As soon as I saw his vehicle in the parking lot, my heart would skip beats. If I heard him talking in the hall my face would turn red. Even now when I hear the text tone I used to have for him, my breathe gets whipped away. It’s been 3 weeks since I have seen him in person and I am healing very slowly. No one understands the struggle of getting over men like this. My man had issues with control but he also had a job that demanded that along with high stress. He was married before and I’m guessing it ended because of his behavior and not because of the excuse he gave me years ago . A big ole red flag goes in this guy. Warning warning! I’m still a work in progress, and when he texts me my stomache turns not knowing what to do. Men… they can be so ridiculously painful.
Canoe,
The fact that we experience these major physiological reactions of stress, the feeling of being sucked into a black hole, and almost this sense of being destroyed leads me to feel that on some level our old brain/body-minds are equating these EUMs to our caregivers as children, and some very early unmet need.
At least for me, I started to realize that the stress and debilitating emotional and physical symptoms were about a way deeper trauma than the EUM. And I’ve been asking myself how his behavior towards me may have stimulated a much older, deeper, more primal wound. My gut tells me is that it is almost a pre-verbal wound, something connected to my sense of safety, and also to my ability to receive love. It is very hard for me to really believe and let in love and care from others, despite the fact that I consciously love and like myself and think I am worthy and deserving of love. It’s something deeper than what I “think”, almost like a reflex.
When you experience these feelings and sensations, what associations do you get? Does the feeling echo anything you felt as a child, or any previous experiences in your life? It’s such a hard feeling to manage. It’s so beyond logic and being able to just “think my way out of it”. I’ve tried that. It’s deeper than the mind. And I do think there is only so much we can do on our own when it comes to healing deep relational wounds.. We can feel them and identify that something is there, and start to process it. But I also feel that part of the way we heal is through creating new points of reference, and through secure, healthy relationships, and/or with the help of a healer/therapist/mentor/guide, etc.
I do hope these feelings get easier for you. I’m slowly but surely coming to really appreciate how far I’ve come in the last couple of years, and even months. Even when I get a wave of those awful sensations and that feeling like I’m spiraling out of control and like it’s life or death, it’s nothing compared to what it used to be. And that is something to be proud of and grateful for!
AEC- wow I am shocked. Thank you for taking the time to write your history. I carbon copy everything including the EU having a horrific childhood causing him to have PTSD and commitment issues. In my case I have been dealing with the crumbs for 9 years and it’s about to end.
I have been the Best friend/blurred lines girl in his life. Drop of a hat, I was there for him and boosted that ego. He had a great thing going because his GF who works across the country 4 months out of the year, never paid attention to him. Or so he said. The problem with this besides the obvious is that the more I withdrew, the more he sucked me in and future faked. It got worse and worse. Anything that sounded fun, and would make me happy, he would say we were doing it! Never happened. Then he would have mood swings because of his PTSD etc, and he would disappear for a week. If I texted him more than twice a day he would block my number. If i upset him because I forgot to tell him something and it made him feel left out , he would ignore my texts. He fed off of me wanting his attention and “love”. He would tell me he loved me but i never trusted it. Each time I confronted him about soemthing he would change topics suddenly or say how amazing I looked and how if he wasn’t working he would be all over me. None of that ever played out. His entire fantasy was to just flirty hot and heavy with me, and tell me how miserable he was with his Gf. Out of the blue one day I heard he had decided to pack up his business and move closer to his GF. Hey that’s fine, more power to you, but I was angry. After everything we had been through , and times when he cried on my shoulder about things and he didn’t tell me? I confronted him face to face on a busy sidewalk one morning. This man who i thought loved me, and who cares for me, simply said “I didn’t want anyone to know, I wanted to leave quietly.” This is not the man I met so many years ago. Change sucks! He knew I was hurt and he swapped over to flirting mode very quickly to win me back and forgive him. Sadly I got sucked in by his charm and he walked away happy. Now I’m on day 4 of him pouting, and not replying to texts because from what I can tell, he is upset that I didn’t share some info with him. Nothing major or earth shattering but in his mind, it was huge. So he moves in 3 weeks. Will I get to say goodbye to a man who I fell for and regarded as a friend? Or will he just slip away and everything we had also disappear ? It sucks and it’s sad… and it’s going to be one of the worst things I’ve dealt with besides a death in the family.
BlueRipple,
This sounds like such a painful situation… It sounds like this man is incapable of any real intimacy, never mind a healthy mutual relationship. If there’s anything I’ve learned in my life about love and relationships, it’s that you can love someone and wish the best for someone, and at the same time keep them at a distance. I haven’t seen my EUM for over a year and a half, I’ve had a lot of space from it, and I still love him. I still empathize with what he must go through every day, and the hell that he has struggled through. But I also empathize with MYSELF, and my loving him doesn’t mean I have to continue putting myself in harms way. I can love from a good safe distance. And at this distance, I can love the actual imperfect person who was a bit messed up and not capable of giving me what I need, not capable of a mutual relationship. I feel sorry for him, but he’s not my responsibility. I am my own responsibility, and that means staying the hell away from him, at least for a good long while.
I know it’s so hard, but instead of framing it as a rejection – “he is ignoring me, he won’t talk to me, he’s punishing me” , take this as an opportunity to walk away. I can 99% guarantee you that staying involved with him will just end up with you even more hurt than you already are. As Natalie writes again and again in different ways – he isn’t rejecting YOU, he’s rejecting intimacy and having to show up and to be responsible, considerate, empathic. He isn’t capable of giving you what you want and need. He is wounded and it’s about him, it’s not about your worth. And it’s actually disrespectful to the other person for us to stick around and try to “heal” them. Leave him to sort himself out and move on with your life. THAT is how you show him that you truly believe in him, and his potential. You leave him to deal with himself, because ultimately that’s what he needs, and more importantly, it’s probably what you need as well. In terms of moving forward – you are not alone, and there is a light at the end of the tunnel… IF you commit to yourself, and to doing right by you. Sticking around to get disrespected and hurt some more isn’t going to have an easier outcome than walking away.
Wishing you the very best. You can do this! You deserve better than someone who is not capable of being even a good friend to you.
@AEC – yes this is a very painful situation. You are quite right, he isn’t capable of commiting because think he likes the control aspect. He wants attention, his ego stroke once in awhile, and doesn’t think about anything else around him. It’s been difficult because he showed me this true side over the past few years , and I didn’t like it. But, he also semi warned me stating that he was going through a lot, and he doesn’t know what life has in store for him but he lives in the moment. So this explains your lack of “give a damn” with me? I have lost faith in him. I don’t trust him. Yeah I do love him and probably always will even though I know we will not be together. It wouldn’t be healthy if we were together , and who is to say that things wouldn’t get worse if we did end up living together and becoming a couple. It’s not worth a roll of the dice to me. I hardly hear from him now because of his hectic life but when I do he flirts and tells me how he wants to see me. I always laugh it off because usually that never occurs. Mind you I don’t sit around waiting, I live my life and keep looking forward. I have to or I will just be miserable thinking about how much time I spent stressing about him and what if….
BlueRipple,
There is a huge disconnect between what you are hearing and experiencing with that guy and what conclusions you are drawing (all from the head) and what consequences it has….namely zero for him.
Why are you ok with subpar, passive aggressive and manipulative behavior from him?
The person you are describing doesn’t sound like an attractive human being with at least basic integrity!
Why is he SO special?
Sorry to be blunt, but you are majorly EU with yourself by still allowing him to text you and flirt (barf at this point) and then laugh it off…?
So how can someone be so special to you that you cannot take seriously and has shown again and again how insincere, manipulative and self centered he is.
How many more times is he going to hurt you until you had enough and go NC?
Let. Him. Go.
Acknowledge what you already know right now. You don’t need to wait. You know everything you need to know for that decision.
Then sort yourself out, what you truly value and go from there. Natalie is a fantastic guide and support in that but you might need a therapist as well.
Things didn’t start to change for me until I addressed my childhood issues.
Wishing you strength and courage and come here for support!
Great post. I felt as if I was reading my own thoughts. It’s uncanny how similar the EUM’s and women who love them, really are.
Suzy,
Seriously! My real healing started when I realized that I was not alone, that there were tons of other people going through what I was going through. Reading Natalies posts, and the comments here has been so eye opening. These EUMs really are so predictable once you can identify them. I’ve busted out laughing so many times, reading the articulation of experiences that I once thought were unique to me. Amazing.
That was deep AEC — I can relate on a lot of levels. I was told that he knows he is messed up and he’s getting worse — he cannot be fixed. So basically he is saying “this is what u get, all of my phobias , anxieties, ptsd, etc and if you care you will just roll with it.” I see glimpses of the man he used to be but not enough for me to want to wait around because it will never change.
DubRose,
Good for you. It is hard knowing that somebody acts the way they do because they are suffering from deep, primal wounds. And I’m glad you’ve realized it’s not your battle to fight, and are not sticking around to get hurt some more.
I really do believe that people are capable of incredible healing and change when they want it, even if they’ve been at rock bottom for a long time. BUT it’s not going to happen in relationship with us or the next fallback girl. I like to think that we are actually doing these wounded men a favor by having good boundaries, rejecting their behavior, and stepping away. It’s the only way they get an accurate reflection of themselves, and hopefully it can be a wakeup call for the ones who really do want to make changes moving forward. Of course most probably want to avoid themselves at all costs and will just go on to the next one, but that’s not our problem.
In my eyes, holding people accountable for their actions and opting out is a way of staying in integrity with ourselves, while at the same time respecting and believing in the integrity and potential of the other person. Sticking around for more abuse just diminishes integrity and respect all around 🙂
I couldn’t agree more in regards to holding them accountable. I admit to not doing that for ALONG time. I did not want to ruffle any feathers so I didn’t confront him when he let me down so many times. Just recently after admitting that he has these issues, I stepped back and really thought about it. He always has an excuse as to why things didn’t work out. Why this, why that etc…He makes himself look better with excuses, and it allows him to forgive himself for being such a cruddy friend. Ive always just forgiven him and I am at that stage where enough is enough. Of course I would love to stand in his face and just ask “WHY!!!??”, but I bet he doesn’t even see what he does. Nor would it do any good. My walls are up and I don’t know who to trust because of him. He will randomly pop up and text me, future faking as always…Im tired of the mental games. I was and am always going to be th ebest thing he ever had in his life, and sadly he will never realize that until its 2 late.
This is right. I found a post by a man on Evan Marc Katz’s site and this man said exactly what you have as he is one of those men. He also intimated that kicking such men to the kerb gives them a wake up call but not all choose to heed this. This is why so many men keep repeating the same relationship mistakes because they don’t look at the common denominator i.e. themselves and blame all and sundry because they are in denial. The fact that some women entertain them and they have a “relationship” on their terms convinces these douchebags that they are ok and a good catch even though some of them have to rob the cradle because these are the only females to give them the time of day and put with them.
Hi. It would be nice to make the whole episode around this topic but related to parents only. With examples, lots of examples! Especially power struggle, unavailability, etc.
Nat,
I absolutely needed this episode. I am loving this one topic situation. It really allows you to fully understand the topic and actually hear it, understand it and the most important part ACT. I love how you tie it all together and just feel that everyone has experienced this either playing one role or both in various relationships. Thank you so much for always helping us with figuring out what is behind our baggage.
Loved this episode!
So true on so many levels. Before your blog, I used to believe that an ex reaching truly meant something. Yet was also very wary of why they did. I love that you always confirm that my gut instinct is usually right. WHY does it matter that they are reaching out now when they could’ve stayed in the first place? It doesn’t.
I also loved the new concept of focusing on one particular issue. Keep ’em coming!
Thank you for this, Natalie. I called things off with my MM earlier this year after nearly a year. I’m not proud of what happened by any stretch but I’m learning from it and know that I NEVER want to be the OW again. My calling it off was as a result of the realisation that there had been too many broken promises, he could never leave his wife and he was just stringing me along to mask problems in his marriage that he couldn’t face addressing. I was utterly miserable, constantly sick and after getting some professional help and putting some distance between it, I’m feeling like a new woman and it is wonderful.
Since that break up he keeps getting in touch with long-winded messages about how “he doesn’t know how we got to this place” (ie the break up – I’m trying not to scream “BECAUSE YOU’RE MARRIED”) and saying he’s “broken and can never move on”. This last message was prompted by him finding out that I’m seeing someone and moving abroad – ironic given that it was sent while he was on holiday with his wife.
I’ve previously replied to his messages and increasingly this has been to say that I don’t want to discuss things or brings things up again, but to tell you the truth I’ve enjoyed the contact with him. I was so tempted to reply to this last one or to write him a letter before I leave, but this post and podcast is going to be favourited so that I can read it whenever I feel I want to reply. He doesn’t want to be with me, he just wants to keep that foothold in my life and know that he can grab my attention when I’m trying to move on. I can’t and I won’t give him that satisfaction any more.
It is inevitable that a minimal connection is required when co-parenting with an ex. It’s been almost 2 years since our divorce and he remarried the affair partner I divorced him over, the beginning of this year.
Gradually the communication has become minimal but he occasionally solicits my attention-usually starts with compliments on my parenting, (when he has previously chastised my parenting in front of our kid,) or a text from jail trying to get my pity, talking about how an old friend, is his cell mate and the system is failing them…
I wanted to reply, “They fail themselves,” but as Nat says, there’s nothing I could say that I haven’t said before that would make him ‘spontaneously combust into a responsible person.’
What still triggers the painful feelings, are the “accidental” texts meant for someone else.
Yes, it has happened- people accidentally send texts to the wrong person thanks to sucky default technology, but it almost seems solicited.
This last one was about him being on honeymoon, (during Father’s Day wknd,) addressed to some vague bro-term of endearment. This was after a text that his mom was dropping off our kid.
I stopped answering to all his lame texts, which came to a halt. Lame cordial small talk during drop offs is still challenging not to cut off but I am trying. In 7 yrs I never got an accidental text from him for someone else, but it’s been more often recently.
I replied to this one, congratulated him and wished them many long and happy years (mostly long,) and mentioned Father’s Day.
Normally I would have avoided it but that would mean I cared. So I embraced it. Who knows if he’s trying to get attention,or it’s a genuine mistake, but it makes sense. He always passively rubbed her in my face while claiming to want to make it work between us. I didn’t get it. Figured he wanted to be free, and so did I; yet he was so mad at me for divorcing him.
Yes, it has been almost 2 yrs, and I am so much happier by myself and with myself, but yes, two years after my divorce, it still hurts occasionally. I’ve been beating myself up for not being over it quicker (like the ex apparently,) but really, 2 years is not really that long of a period for grieving, at least for me, especially if you share child and they (and their flaky family) are still a very small part in my life. Best of love and luck to everyone on their healing journey. Thank you for letting me share.
Hi, EMC. My hunch is those *accidental* texts are being misdirected to you intentionally…it’s not transmission error. Same thing has been recently happening with me. 2 years ago I ghosted the single EUM I yo-yo’d with for over 20 years. He always kept things at a “fringe” of a relationship, and I always felt lonely. One day I called him at work, he reacted to me like I was a stranger..no familiarity and lots of distance…even though he had been in my bed two days prior…that is when I knew it was time for me to just stop hanging on to nothing. I have made NO effort to make contact with him in two years. I don’t go to his band gigs even though he texts me the dates, I do not contact him on birthdays or holidays. Now, in the last month, suddenly I am getting texts of conversation between him and some other female person…as if he sent the response to the wrong number, or I’m accidentally on some group mail list. This man lives by his cell and is very adept at using it. Back when I was hanging in there, trying to pretend we were truly intimate friends, I could be sitting next to him and his attention was solely on his phone. One time, when I was leaving his gig for the night, I had to text him “goodbye” in order for him to notice I was leaving – and I was sitting right next to him!
So it is a desperation move on their part. I think, to my EUM, I was always the “in case of emergency” girl…the one he would fall back on if in our old age we both found no one in life to couple with. I’m messing up his game plan. He just wants to check on me to make sure I am still available to fill his ICE role. (ICE – in case of emergency)
Elgie- your comment about the cell phone and his focus struck a chord! My EU would be on his cell constantly or he would get texts all the time. Mainly he fell victim to twitter – he became obsessed after I showed him what it was. I had to leave so I wouldn’t see him posting and ignoring my texts. Mind you the next day he would be all over me flirting. He lives with that phone by his side but claims he didn’t get my text , or never saw it because his phone had issues. It’s always an excuse.
Wow, this is a really brilliant podcast. Thank you for spelling this out so clearly. I have just gone through this with a man in the last year and for all the reasons you describe. My part, I can work on. His part, at least I can understand it better and have empathy and compassion for him – but from a distance !
Looking at it from this distance I am much more detached and can see he is very troubled. Very sad, but not my concern.
This was a remarkable topic that really helped me try and sort out some very awful heart break. I admit I was the OW for many years but it was an odd relationship. We are best friends and we never slept together but things always got very close to that. Extreme amount of flirting , FF, him wanting his ego boosted a lot, me dropping things to go help him etc … I was everything that his GF (who is an airline stewardess) is not. He mentally put me through a dreamers world of us having so many laughs, and really connecting on so many levels. I felt at ease with him and unneeded that after some very awful relationships. He was aware of them and seemed almost protective. Within the past 2 years he has changed a lot and started distancing himself more. The long phone calls while grocery shopping to help him pass the time have stopped. No more texts during football games to help cheer on our team. He claims he lives in the moment and this was apparent when he suddenly told me that he has decided to travel across the United States and doesn’t know when or if r will return to this area. I found this all out because I saw it online . I was so hurt because he never told me in person. To understand his mentalitiy, you really just have to look at a young boy who doesn’t get his way… he shuts right down and will get very distant if he feels he was wronged or if he was hurt by someone. Apparently my texts sent to him expressing how hurt I was floored him and he has scurried off and won’t talk to me . He leaves in a week and he is avoiding me . Such pain. I have so many other examples where he has let me down but I cannot get over the fact that he has said he loves me, flirts with me, and if he could he would live with me . He would change things but it’s not easy. Well at this point I can’t figure out who is using who for attention. I think I crave his texts and affection … because he has vanished and it hurts 🙁
This is a selfish, drip-feeding egomaniac. He belongs with his absentee girlfriend–who likely treats men the same way that he treats women (“what my s.o. doesn’t see or hear won’t hurt them–here’s a cute text or call for you to enjoy and hang on until I need my next ego boost!”).
Text him, right now, “Best of luck to you in your future–cheers! Here’s to a great life for each of us.”
Then immediately block his texts, calls, etc.
If he wants you, he has to come and see you. He has enough time before he leaves to set things right with you…if he really wants to.
Whether or not he chooses to see you, you let. Him. Go.
Now he will be “out of sight, out of mind” for you.
You’re welcome.
Well said. He angers me with his rollercoaster of narcassitic emotions. I always thought we would end up together so when he changed it was difficult. This wasn’t the man I first met at alllll. He still isn’t. Just as a friend he has now let me down yet again. I heard there was a party being thrown for him next week– I won’t be attending. I will also be burning the ring he gave me. The memories , really fun memories I still have and so that is what causes me to feel pain with letting go. No contact is a must … I may see him in person one more time but am pretty sure he is avoiding me because he is a coward. Did I mention that anytime I ever asked him something I was “trained” not to ask too much because he was secretive and guarded? He would get flustered and compare me to his current GF who always assumes things. Puts him down. In any case, he’s nothing like any other male friends I have. I can sit at the local pub and chat with them and not feel guarded at all. Why do I feel like I’m losing such a prize ? He’s handsome. Has a great job. Sweet talks me and makes me feel good….. but alllll on his terms when it benefits him. Yeah he’s not that special and my health has suffered because of him. Time to go NC and let him goooooo. My blood pressure needs a rest!
Natalie, thank you for bringing up current attention seeking from a parent as in differentiating between positive and negative. My mother becomes emotionally over involved when I vent to her about negative experiences with my ex. She still tries to take care of me as an adult, more than she should, and I feel its to make up for my childhood. My mother and I had a tumultuous relationship growing up. I acted out as a child and have always been attention seeking in some form. Some great new insight here and pattern recognition! Thanx again!
I can relate – I have a male friend who vanishes a lot. He hates to make plans , lives in the moment. BUT when he wants to see me, he states “I’ll be in your state on this day and it will be good to see you.” Ummm okay well sorry Charlie but have you considered I may have plans and I don’t drop things for you? He guilts me, he flirts with me, he never shows up but makes it sound like he will. I just kinda take his texts with a grain of salt now – he claims he cares for me so much but cannot commit to spending time with me when he is around. Yeah… crumbs galore here !
Guy meets girl. Girl falls for him. Guy flirts like crazy, gives her tons of attention and one day says — I have a GF but I still want to be your friend. Yeah. For 15 years I have been his fall back girl while he struggles to maintain a decent relationship. He keeps coming back to me saying I understand him, and if it doesn’t work out he will be with me. His latest move is to disappear , blow hot and future fake . He claimed he was going to come over and hang out with me before he left on a business trip. Did he text to say he wasn’t going to show up? Nope. Do u think he answered when I texted him asking if he was still going to be here? Nope. Mind you, he told me all of this while on the phone with me flirting and putting out another fire he had set with me. I was upset about his vanishing so he tried to make it right, and this was going to be him apologizing in person .
Very angry … but I think I’m angry at myself for letting it happen again and again. He craves my attention but on his terms. I dunno how to handle this anymore. I don’t want to be a jerk to him because he has said how he has deeper issues that make him act certain ways . But come on….
Once upon a time, I was in a similar position as the one you describe. I had this amazing connection and friendship with a man who was engaged to be married. It never got physical or anything, but I fell for him hard emotionally. And he made it clear that had he been single, that he felt the same way, and we would have been more than friends. There was this “if only” quality, but the reality was that he wasn’t willing to break it off with his fiance (and I never asked him to), and that’s the part that really counts. After years the friendship became incredibly painful as I felt constantly rejected and less-than, small, pathetic, and like there was a major power imbalance in the friendship.
One day, the pain and humiliation of acting like a love-sick puppy towards this guy, being his on-call ego pumper and fallback option became too much. I had enough and my pride finally kicked in. I deleted his phone number and all of his emails, and I made the decision to walk away from the friendship. He texted me a month later (I didn’t know the number, but I recognized him by the tone of the text), and I responded with “who is this?”. He got the point and pretty much left me alone after that. When he did reach out a couple times, I ignored it.
The next few years were very difficult, and I got myself into a bunch of bad relationship situations trying to escape the pain of leaving this friendship. I also became very ill for about two years after, and while it was one of the worst times in my life, it forced me into a new direction. My life hasn’t been perfect, and it’s taken me a lot of painful situations to get where I am today. But the funny thing is, that this engaged guy from my past (now married with a baby) and I still share some good mutual friends. And I know for a fact that he respects me, sees me as a person of integrity, and holds me in high esteem. He values me from afar, and in many ways I am the dear friend and potential love interest who got away. Most importantly though, I RESPECT MYSELF for doing the right thing and cutting him off, even though I loved him and didn’t want to. I NEEDED to in order to stay in integrity with myself AND with what I claimed to feel for him.
Don’t know if my story might help you. All I can say is the chance of this guy becoming what you want and need is very slim to none… You’re certainly not going to earn any respect points from you or him for sticking around to get disrespected some more. In fact, your best bet for the long term is to cut him off and become “the one that got away”. Let that be your new narrative. Doesn’t mean it wont hurt (it does). But in the long run you will be glad you did.
I’m healing from a completely different unavailable relationship now, but the method of walking away seems to be the most empowering action for dealing with these situations. I’m over the worst now, but keep coming back to these comments because it reminds me that I’m on the right track, and that I’m not alone in what I’m going through. And you are not alone either. You have way more power than you think… It starts by disengaging from this guy who is not available for the relationship that you’re wanting.
A.E.C- I cannot thank you enough! Everything you said, including your story are a carbon copy of my life and my feelings. It’s very difficult to delete his number after being the “only close friend who understands him”. I haven’t slept with him, but it’s a situation where he fantasizes about it. Heck me being around him makes him antsy. He is the kind of guy that looks amazing from the outside , and is what I always thought I wanted. Sadly on the inside he has a lot of scars and baggage that I tried to take on and fix but that just didn’t go anywhere. I also became sick and it was because of the stress caused from his pushing me away for no reason. I’ve never confronted him about it , but I have dangled the “look at how good I look now” in front of him. Im very healthy, thinner, and focused on me now. He loves that, and is proud of me but I think it scares him to think he could lose me to another guy. He should be scared because the way he craves my attention and then disappears is exhausting.
I have deleted his number so many times and as you said, you knew who it was with the way he texted you. I’m guessing that since he disappeared today he will suddenly show up texting me in the next few days with excuses. I’m not sure why I keep holding on to this. Maybe because he is a handsome , buff guy who makes me feel pretty and wanted. He’s familair to me and I feel comfortable with everything he does.
I’ve worked hard to retrain my brain and step away from him multiple times. I don’t like how everything is on his terms : if he calls and I don’t answer, I get guilted and he won’t answer. If he texts and I don’t reply right away he guilts me. The times I have said how I feel, and shown my anger , he has absolutely been floored. He was apologetic and he changed – for a little bit.
My dream of who I thought he was and what he would be is over.. I’ve worked hard to mentally start phasing him out and when he upsets me by future faking and making me say “why does he do this? Doesn’t he see he hurts me??” I just get thrown back down the hill where I started.
I know I’m strong and I hope I have it in me to keep going and fighting his attention laser beams.
These attention seeking men – I have one who loves his ego boosted and the flirting is ridiculous. He loves the chase via phone. Rarely do I ever see him in person because of our varied work hours. (He is one of my closest male friends). Whenever he is single or having issues with whatever girl is flavor of the month, he turns on that charm with me. I often wonder if his feelings for me are no more than just a “quicky” — my personality, humour, and cuteness appeal to him more than whoever he is with. Yet he won’t commit to me. It’s the thrill of the attention from afar. And it sucks! I haven’t had a stern conversation with him but I don’t find it fun anymore. Either be with me or just be my friend , no strings attached. I worry I’ll lose him as a friend if I decide to speak my mind but at this point I’m being held back from going out with other guys because they feel intimidated by him and how close we are. People assume we are in a relationship sometimes. Gahhhh! He goes back to school in a month and will be 5 hours away. Maybe it’s for the best.
Please don’t take offence but you are the one holding yourself back. No “friend” who values the friendship would act so cheaply and there doesn’t appear to me to much to lose with this clown. Of course men will hold back, I’d do the same if it was a man who was very close to a woman even if he said they were friends. This clown wants to keep his options open hence keeping you on the back burner. Men want what they can’t have and when he is available he isn’t making any moves towards you that tells you everything. Personally I’d send him a text saying best of luck when you go back to school and don’t contact me again, then delete his number and go NC. He sin’t even a good friend and would make a lousy lover.
Ladies the way I look at things is this. As long as there are other women who engage with these clowns they are doing us a favour. How? Well whether they are young enough to be a man’s daughter or otherwise these women are removing men from the dating pool who are worthless and not good relationship material. Let these women get fcuked up and pride yourselves that you know better so move on. What goes around comes around as they say and at some point these women will smell the coffee. If men cannot see a pattern then they are beyond help.
Many men choose what is familiar and not likely to work out as then they can say they knew this would happen and they don’t have to address their fears, tap into their juvenille emotions or work on themselves. I also believe that it is better to be leading a fulfilled life on your own than to be poorly accompanied. Trust your instincts and get rid as you are worth so much more. The main thing is men will tell you directly or indirectly what sort of man they are.
I had a man tell me was an emotionally messed up, workaholic man child who doesn’t know what he wants and flip flaps. Is he with a woman his own age? No he is with a woman young enough to be his daughter because she isn’t mature enough to see the flaws. I had him worked out very quickly and then he stopped flirting with me. So she thinks she has a great catch and I’m like good luck as no way would I go there.
She will want to get married no doubt given her age and that will then make or break them as he is twice divorced but she is just a passing time candidate as appearance is everything to him. But she has done me a favour by taking out this sad clown who doesn’t know himself but wants to have a “relationship” however dysfunctional it might be for appearance sake. She is little better than a whore in it for the money and status given his high profile job. The question she should ask is why my age and not a woman his own age? But she will be sucked in by him due to her age and no doubt afraid if she pushes anything he’ll walk even though it is on his terms as it is. I can see the car crash that will happen as he is so dysfunctional and as another women put it, he is in it for the trophy on his arm and dipping his wick. A shallow man and not a quality I can relate to in anyone so I’m flying free and happy with it.