Every single day, somebody, somewhere, tells me about their involvement in an affair (or how they’ve just got out of one and hope to stay out of it), and they all want to know: How (and why) the hell did I get myself into this mess?
It’s why I say that affairs are like exorcisms. If you had doubts about whether you had any real issues about relationships or whether you were hurt or even feeling broken by something from the past, an affair will gradually, and then very painfully, make you so aware of it, you will wish that you could slam Pandora’s box shut. You’ll wish you could press the reset button so that you’re right back there at the moment before you took The Big Wrong Turn.
I’ve noticed something in every story, that I now use to help people shine the light of awareness on their own journeys:
Something happened in the weeks and months preceding the affair. Whatever it was, it meant that on some level, these people had given up.
They had often experienced a profound loss and/or some form of betrayal (which is in itself a loss). Feeling so lost and broken in the heat of anger, deep sadness and pain, they vowed on some level not to trust (or expose themselves to being hurt) again. They gave up on genuine love and became open to the counterfeit kind.
Whatever this was, it was the straw that broke the donkey’s back. Even though it would appear that it was, for instance, a breakup, in reality, it was that plus various other events from the past stretching right back to earlier in life. When combined, it had the domino effect of bringing it to the perfect storm of the affair.
If we look at what the purpose of any relationship is, so that’s the good and the not-so-good ones and everything in between, it’s to help us to heal, grow and learn.
An affair will force us to confront our darkest places because to be the Other Woman/Man, it involves living in the shadows. And let’s be real, us humans don’t like to be put in the corner, even when we subconsciously (and sometimes consciously), chose the corner because it felt safe. It means that we can hide out from vulnerability and making decisions about taking the next step and moving on to the next phase of our lives.
Being the Other Woman/Man invites delay, guilt and pain into our life.
We play-act at the relationship thang without having to be truly in.
Although we often won’t admit it, we deliberately put ourselves in the position of feeling inferior due to the inevitable comparison and sense of neglect from waiting around and not being chosen. There’s also the feeling bad about doing something that is not in line with our values.
We put ourselves in a place of feeling anxious, questioning, jumping through hoops, and yo-yoing through highs and lows. We continue because we want there to be something to show for being a ‘bad guy’ or a ‘bad girl’ because we don’t want to think that we did ‘all of this’ only to have nothing to show for it. There’s fear of discovering (or admitting) that our affair partner isn’t perfect or even very nice, or that they’ve told lies to advance their self-interest with minimal hassle.
Affairs also bring up second best and competitive issues.
If we’ve always felt second best, then we get to keep reaffirming that pattern and our place within our original family unit. As “the favourite”, especially of a parent who might have had their own affair or who we felt sympathetic to about their issues with our other parent, an affair is an easy shoe-in. Habitually competing with, for instance, a sibling, is a similar dynamic to competing with someone’s partner/spouse.
Granted, some people get off on affairs, but the most Other Women/Men don’t.
What they have failed to see is that being an affair partner is recreating a pattern where they are playing a role and so it keeps them small and it keeps them stuck.
It’s familiar territory.
Even though it’s not working and in fact, has increasingly diminishing returns, we struggle to know how to leave even when we want to, because of the tangle of our pattern. We’re afraid of alienating whoever it is that inspired the pattern (or triggering their rage or hurt via the affair partner). We fear abandonment. And so we continue because we haven’t realised that, yes, of course, we’re hurting from the present-day situation of the affair but that it’s our past that’s coming up and the pattern that’s binding us to the situation. Or we leave and then go back.
Many don’t realise where they’ve either ended up with a parental replacement, ended up playing the role of one of their parents either out of seeking validation or revenge (righting the wrongs of the past), or ended up replaying a dynamic from earlier in life over and over again where they end up feeling and acting the same.
We feel purposeful and needed and don’t know who we’d be without these chaotic feelings that feel like ‘home’, not realising that we don’t need to feel ‘special’ in this way to be loved and needed, nor do we have to keep recreating the past.
If you are in an affair (or trying to make your way out of one), it’s critical to confront the feelings and baggage that you’re afraid of addressing. It’s critical to start asking the question: What’s the baggage behind this?
What is in your past that would make you ripe for being in this situation?
Look also at what was going on before you began the affair and where you had given up. Then evaluate what was triggering about this person and the situation that made you receptive to it.
When you start to acknowledge that pain, you stop seeing this person as being all powerful and mighty. You will also begin making your way back to who you really are and choosing your integrity and yourself over the affair.
Your thoughts?
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The conclusion of this blog assigns some tough challenges. I’ve just finished reading it for the first time and know that I need to reflect, at least, before I can answer all the challenges for myself.
But: “They had often experienced a profound loss and/or some form of betrayal (which is in itself a loss) and felt so lost and broken that in the heat of anger, deep sadness and pain, they on some level vowed not to trust again (or to expose themselves to being hurt again) and so they gave up on love.
Whatever this was, it was the straw that broke the donkey’s back, so even though it would appear that it was, for instance, a break-up, in reality, it was that break-up plus various other events from the past stretching right back to earlier in life, that when all combined, it had the domino effect of bringing it to the crescendo moment of the affair.” really applies to both him and me.
My situation was the far too young death of my husband due to a rare disease. His situation was a geographical marital separation. I invested emotionally early last year and physically toward the end of the summer.
“Affairs bring up second best and competitive issues.” Definitely YES. Am I competing with her? Am I competing to be special; to be chosen?
Am I replaying ancient dynamics of parental dissatisfaction and disappointment that I was never the ballet principal, never the voice soloist? Likely all of the above and more.
Among the triggers were, as for Natalie, the smile; also the attention, the concern, that certain “look” in his blue eyes, the mega-watt charm…the “I have been chosen” (until of course, I was not). Oh, yes, this all felt like home.
Wow!!!! This could not have come at a better time. I found myself deeply involved in an affair, and totally did not know how I got there. He was an ex boyfriend and I thought we were working our way back to making it work, meanwhile he had another girlfriend the whole time. Fast forward 5 years he has married her and had children with her. I believed he would leave her because he promise and insisted that it was just a mistake.
I have a complex of being abandoned and being 2nd best. This situation made every feeling a self fulfilling prophecy. He even got me pregnant and insisted he didn’t have time, yet I see him parading around with the children he had with her. Feeling so betrayed has kept me attached to him.
I work with a counselor and have taken the steps to distance myself. Even as I write this, I feel so foolish for being so stupid to get so involved.
Now you have to just make a life for yourself and try to forget about him. Unless you are able to get some type of support from your ex, and his wife will eventually find out about that.
Your child deserves you and all of you, not the wish for him if he is not involved. I am sorry for this, but hope you are able to find happiness in the joy of raising your child, even if it is alone.
She didn’t say what happened to the child. I was wondering if you kept it, or what.
I am sorry for your pain and can relate. I have been crying for three days over a broken relationship that was an emotional affair for two years. We are both seniors and married to seniors. I finally feel the chains of the emotional affair broken, but my heart is broken as well.
Everything Natalie said is so true and I am so glad once again I can read her words and feel supported by her and this community. This feels more like home.
I was looking for my dad and I found him in a married man. Now I realize I was also committed to lack in every area of my life. Self sabotage was the biggest goal in my life and I achieved it every time. Having no intimacy skills it was crucial that I find someone taken who I knew would eventually abandon me. I didn’t think it at the time but through years of therapy I’ve learned all my choices were self fulfilling prophecies that enabled me to stay firmly entrenched in self hatred and retraumatization of my childhood.
Couldn’t have said this better myself Claudine!
I too was seeking the love I never had from my bio dad/step-dad elsewhere, I end up with a married man with 4 kids, 20+ years my senior at the age of 24. Until recently he was the closest thing I’d ever had to a ‘normal’ relationship in terms of providing the kind of love, affection and symbolic gestures I was seeking as a young woman. He was generous to a fault and I enjoyed dinners, nights out, weekends away, being someone that I thought was his priority as he chose to spend most of his time with me instead of his wife. That in particular made me feel great, because I felt like I was winning for once, even though we all know I was nothing more than a loser in this scenario.
I know that we’re supposed to frown on being the Other man/woman in a relationship, but I actually had a great person in my married man. We worked together, and he really was there for me when everything in my life was going sideways. When I had a massive bust up with my parents and didn’t speak to them for over a year, he was there. When
my lunatic room mates decided to turn on me and make my life hell at home, he was there. When friends let me down time and again, he was there. When I had the worst financial issues and struggled to feed myself some months, he was there. When I first started suffering with lupus symptoms and couldn’t even comb my own hair or take myself to the toilet, he was there.
Needless to say it ended badly… But I learned so much from that year with him. I learned that I’m not content being a side chick, I want to be legitimate with whoever I’m with. I learned that I would never be the Other woman again. No way. It’s not what I want in life. I also learned that I am capable of having a successful long-ish term intimate relationship with a man – even though he was/is married. I learned a lot about me.
Whew. This hits close to home…
Same here, Claudine. Even as a child, I had the ‘other woman’ in the form of my sister, who Dad preferred. He was quite crushing towards me, but seemed (at any rate) to love her. But she had affairs as well, and loved the competition. I didn’t love the competition at all – I knew they wouldn’t leave their partner for me, in fact, I counted on it… We were both self-destructive, but she couldn’t see Dad as the controlling narcissist I knew him to be. She died in 2010, and I grew… so that was when I realised he didn’t really love her either – he just got more of his supply from her, because she jumped through his hoops. She did the same with every guy she dated, becoming their ‘ideal woman’ by pretending to love the things they loved, and in the meantime losing herself. I still don’t feel ready for a guy of my own, but now I have the integrity to love myself and not get involved with anyone attached or lacking integrity. I was in a constant state of angst in those younger days, recreating home life… It took many years before I could stand up properly to the man I’d been projecting onto all of these guys… So many wasted years…
This is my story. My affair was on and off again. This man is 20yrs my senior. I had a wonderful dad and it seemed he was Mr Wonderful but in reality I’ve been miserable.
Wow
How much does that resonate?
Being the other woman is about one inch from being a hooker–except they get paid. I did it and suffered for years after it ended. She was a classic narcissist and her wife was a doormat. They’re still together. They deserve each other. No Contact in years, therapy and wising up brought healing. But never, ever again.
I absolutely agree with your liking this to being a hooker.
I feel ashamed to look in the mirror, and have had moments where I ask myself if this is as good as it will ever get. Boy what a mess to get into.
Yes! Thank you for your words. An emotional affair is bad and it was bad. I am glad still, that at least I resisted sex for two years with him. It was such a fantacy to thought to be wanted and desired. I think that is why he eventually gave up on me. He said he wanted off of the merry-go-round, and I said I AGREE! Thank God. I can’t help it if your wife won’t have sex with you! That does not mean I will. I am married as well.
Now on with the healing. I am going to let myself cry it out.
From a meme someone posted on FB:
In the end, she became more than she expected.
She became the journey, and like all journeys, she did not end, she simply changed directions and kept going. RM Drake
My husband of 40 years had died 3 years prior. I moved to a new state, had no friends there. He reminded me exactly of my dad (who had an affair when I was a kid). His mannerisms were similar, his humor, his looks. He never told me he was married until I was in deep. I chose to continue. I felt 2nd best, I was a secret, I twisted myself and my time into what he wanted. I was in my early 60s and felt it was my last chance to fill the void left by my late husband. This guy was funny, attentive, sensual. But he was secretive, sneaky, dishonest and emotionally unavailable. I left, it was hell, and I felt lonelier than ever. But now, after 14 months of no contact I have regained myself, my humor, my time, and most of all, feel contented with my situation. I am learning to fill my own void, learning about myself. This excavation work may or may not lead to a relationship, but at least I am healthier and more whole.
Molly, I think grief makes us act in ways that are counter-productive, but ultimately healing… I lost both of my dogs, and then my sister, when I decided to contact an old flame from the 70s. He was attached back then, and is with someone now, but was eager to get into an affair. He reminded me of my father too, and it brought up so much I knew I needed to heal around dear old Dad. The grief triggered my need to really heal, I think, and led me to this guy who just hung in there (we only had sex once) while I told him I was projecting onto him. He ended up being a good friend to me, after I’d sorted myself out, but I decided that I couldn’t be in contact with him anymore… The grief rips us open, and then I think we attract whatever we need in order to really heal.
Yes, I think so as well Cindy. I lost my son ten years ago, then my sister the next year, my dad the next year, and my two best friends and the emotional affair was an escape. The thing is, breaking off the emotional affair has brought back all of this grief and loss to me again. All of the deep emotional fragility, loss and pain is coming out of my chest and eyes. I feel like puking sometimes and I can’t eat.
I know it will get better. Surviving the loss of my son is the worst. I can get through this. I need to not listen to the negative mind-set and just be hopeful somehow.
I went back to an ex after
10 years. We met in Vegas where he had a conference. He kept me hidden in the hotel all day. After the conference he was tired ( a way of not wanting to be out with me) he ordered all meals in. I felt used, abused and deeply hurt.
His wife called whom he supposedly was separated from. I asked him if he was going to answered, he said yes..I walked out of the room.
For a nice ending he dropped me at the airport and didn’t even bother to call to see if I made it home safely. I text him that I arrived home. Haven’t heard one word. Ladies, men don’t go back to an ex the pain is really hurtful. I’m a teacher as a result of my pain I wasn’t able to focus on my lovely students had to take a week to reflect and ask God for forgiveness. I’m ok now, no more answering midnight calls, or FaceTime craziness. I had known the man since high school in the 80’s.
Totally unbelievable similarly. I too went back to an previous affair. I thought I could handle it. Believe me it’s worst. I haven’t heard from him since she retired last month. I called last week and he was dry so I hung up. I blame myself but I’m angry with him also. I feel so used but he never said he wanted me permanently. I’m just praying for strength not to answer if he calls.
I was involved in an affair only once in my life….never again. My dad died that year and my doctoral supervisor was there to support me. I was very broken and he was on/off with another woman for years. He made it sound as if he was going to leave her, didn’t love her, etc. On top of this all, we had to keep it secret because he was my supervisor! Basically he was getting the best of both worlds. Later on, I realized that this other woman was his steady and he was sleeping with students and others during their “off” time. So basically they had an open relationship.
Now I run if I sense that a man is taken (and not only through marriage).
Hi Laura,
I also got involved in an affair during my PhD, not with a supervisor, but with a fellow student who was 15 years older than I was (he was doing a PhD after having a career in a different area beforehand).
The stress of completing a doctoral thesis can make you feel pretty low and self critical most of the time, so you’re a ripe target for a guy engaging in flattery. This was my experience, at least.
Natalie talking about triggering events is bang on the money here. I’d like to think I wouldn’t have got involved with someone like him, had I not been so stressed by my PhD.
It’s pretty appalling that your supervisor, of all people, took advantage of this situation!
The fact that you were not your supervisor’s only extra-curricular relationship is not surprising. The married guy I was involved with turned out to be sleeping with two other women on our PhD program who were a similar age to me (i.e. 14-15 years younger than he was). He was basically using the fact that his wife was studying for her own PhD in a different country as an excuse to sleep with as many young women as possible.
I’ve got no idea if any of this is helpful. I suppose that what I wanted to say is that you’re not alone in having the stress of completing a PhD as your trigger for getting involved in an affair.
Being the other woman for almost 3 years was the hardest, most soul destroying time of my life. As you say, constantly feeling anxious, questioning, jumping through hoops, and yo-yoing through highs and lows but the hardest yet is trying to detach myself from this man has and still is even harder, and heart-breaking. We broke up over a year ago, but it hasn’t been a clean break, as we live in the same town so we very often bump into each other and then we end up talking about how good we were together and spending the night together, only to get my hopes up and then nothing. He is now officially separated from his wife but still living together and he has been living the single life and flaunting his new women in my face, every chance he gets. It kills me that I waited and wasted 3 years of my life with this man, only to now not even be his first choice or have him respect me or my feelings.
I have been in a similar position as you. I had an affair with a married man for 3 years. We broke up countless times normally him breaking with me he felt guilty blah blah. He ended it with me year gone October on phone saying he had a new woman, him and his wife were splitting up!! I knew he was leaving of course it was all wife fault but i never thought he would dump me with no remorse like garbage i now believe he is a narcisst he can’t stay faithful he told me that and he has a lot of there traits. He wanted to stay friends i said no i eventually blocked him on my phone few month ago to heal. Its awful and so hurtful he wanted another new woman over me like i meant nothing to him. I have had a lot of lessons to learn and one don’t go any where near attached men.
I’m divorced with two kids and this issue has played on my mind a lot.
I never have anything to do with married men, but I had fallen deeply for him and had been in the relationship for 6 months before I found out.
In his case, his wife does not live in the same country as him. And even if he never speaks bad about her or promise me anything, I know they don’t have a great relationship (it was an arranged marriage), and they see each other about twice in a year.
So, it was almost impossible for me to know he was married… we spoke late into the night, I can go to his house whenever I like etc.
When I confronted him about his marriage, he apologised for not telling me… he was afraid of loosing me so he didn’t tell me. He then gave me the option to leave him if I wanted to, he said it’ll hurt him but he’d understand… but I stayed!
Now my dilemma is this… I feel guilty, but I just don’t know how to or if I can walk away. I love him so much and I know he loves me a lot too. He’d do anything for me and my kids, and he’s the first man that has shown me true love. My kids’dad is deadbeat and he takes them as his, they love him so much.
I’ve met all his friends, I’m no secret.. they all love me and they’ve told him he’s happy anytime he’s with me (he’s always miserable when she comes) and that he should decide what he wants.
She was in the country last year for a while and he couldn’t wait for her to go back. He spent a lot of the time he was not working at my place.
We’re friends and can speak on the phone for hours on end, we play around like children, we get on really well. He tells me his every move, I know it’s weird but I trust him.
I don’t think I can walk away so easily… but I feel guilty.
Why would you stay if you feel guilty/be in a relationship that will not go anywhere. It sounds like you want to be the ‘chosen’ and all that he says could be lies. An affair is the roller coaster ride in which you’ll fall off hard.
“…he was afraid of loosing me so he didn’t tell me.” Well, now you know. And? What does this tell you about his Character, about who he really is? It’s all about his moral bankruptcy. Please pay attention: It’s inked on his forehead in perpetuity.
“He then gave me the option to leave if I wanted to…but I stayed!” Well, isn’t he the Mr. Magnanimous/poster boy of Marital Messes. You need his “permission” to leave? OK, so you’ve made the decision to stay. Just remember, this was YOUR decision: Not his. It’s alllll your’s as of that critical moment. And so is Mr. Oh-So-Trustworthy. Note how he has now smoothly transferred all the ACCOUNTABILITY for this sordid mess to YOU? If he gets busted? He has plausible deniability and if you ever push for being more than a piece on the side he’ll tell you this is what you agreed to. See how that works?
“…he’d do anything for me and my kids….” Except legitimize your relationship. I do believe that is something rather important. In fact, I’d go full on Truth and say anything less than that is bull shit. It’s allll talk. And as long as it’s not action/behavior, you’re the side dish, not the main course. You’re one of many. Believe it. You might as well be the dish at the buffet with the fruit flies circling. Stop jerking yourself around.
“…my kid’s dad is a dead beat…” Welp, looks like a pattern to me.
Ya know why you feel guilty? Anytime you have to HIDE what you’re doing, you know it’s WRONG. Full Stop. When a person has to work this hard with paragraph after paragraph of rationalizing, minimizing, denying etc. I gotta wonder, who are you trying to convince this “relationship” which started with a *HUGE LIE* BTW, is somehow OK? You really “trust” some lying liar who lies to fill you in on the deets of his marriage and spouse?! C’mon. This guy has about as much credibility as a career criminal. And you’re gonna take him at his word? Because you *need to*-and this trumps every other consideration and has struck you blind, deaf and silly.
The only thing more painful than watching someone doing the “Pick Me! Pick Me!” Dance is the knowledge the one doin’ it is gonna feel the burn sooner or later. You’ve created this narrative of star crossed lovers when the reality is Stoopid Stepped Up and Hijacked My Hoo-Haa.
Sadly you’ve fallen in lust with something and someone that exists only in your mind, not in reality. You’ve attributed all kinds of qualities to this…guy he does not in fact possess. Forget the words: LOOK AT HIS BEHAVIOR. He gets any greasier he’d be a deep fryer. And at the moment, you’re the french fry, baby. One of many that comes in the same old bags. If you can live with it-and I don’t believe for a second you can peacefully coexist with your conscience kickin’ in the door of reality-you wouldn’t spend paragraphs “explaining.”
You’re not “Confused.” You know what’s right and what’s right now: A state of temporary insanity. The difference is you have something he doesn’t: Morals. And every time you’re with him you’re frantically repudiating who you are to be who you need to be: An unpaid escort. It feels icky because you’re trying to lie to yourself and self isn’t havin’ any of it, uh uh. Self says, “Girl, you KNOW this is wrong!” So to stay with him (and please believe me, this dawg is nothin special) you have to betray YOU. Ouch, ouch, ouch. Feel the burn.
All the time you spend with this age old mistress narrative you’ve wrapped in a transparent romance fiction is time you need to spend getting back to yourself IRL instead of carrying on a Long Distance Relationship with you. It’s not working. It’s not that you “deserve” more or less: It’s that your self-respect is on it’s knees begging for you to come home where you belong. Your conscience is the battering ram of self-respect that relentlessly advocates for your own Character. As long as you draw a breath this is “who” you’re gonna answer to. Granted, it’s not as exciting, novel or fun. But it needs your attention desperately; it is WHO YOU ARE. When we vacate our Character we turn it into a vacant house: Over time it starts to deteriorate for lack of maintenance and upkeep. It still has great bones but it needs some time, full attention, loving TLC and genuine investment.
You’re a decent, caring human being. If you were “conscience impaired””or genuinely mistress material this whole foundational lie wouldn’t be necessary. Nor would all the defenses you’re continually using in an effort to shore up (isn’t that exhausting?) a fantasy. Look, you’re not the only one that’s tread this tired road-it’s a story that goes back to when we were knuckle draggers-just before we became knuckle heads. I leave you with some lyrics penned by Jackson Brown (although I prefer Joan Baez’s rendition) long before you were born, long before the Internet, long after screwing around and lying to your spouse or being the troubled but willing accomplice was recognized as a common human frailty and potential human (cesspool) pitfall:
“When you see through love’s illusion there lies the danger
And your perfect lover just looks like a perfect fool
So you go running off in search of a perfect stranger
For the loneliness seems to spring from your life
Like a fountain from a pool…” (“Fountain of Sorrow”)
C’mon. Let’s dust you off-that’s not Fairy Dust you’re covered in, it’s desiccated poop that spreads the Hint-A Virus. You’ve been treated to more than a Hint-A-Moral VD and your conscience is projectile vomiting your Truth. Time to go home.
Spot on, Tundra Woman!
Slow hand claps…
Well said!
Tundra Woman just dropped the mic and left the building … *clap clap*
You are a riot and very wise Tundra Woman. Thank YOU for that!!!
God, I need your strength right now. Like a big gust of wisdom wind. Thanks again. Funny too, very funny. <3
Confused,
Don’t let your kids get attached to a man who ultimately is not yours! As Nat Luke’s to quote “Molly, you’re in danger girl”!
This might be an odd thought amongst all this empathy for “the other woman / man” but what about the pain they are inflicting on the partner who is at the receiving end of this s***?
I totally get that there are reasons for being drawn into an affair but whatever crap those people have been going through, it does not give them the right to interfere, mess up and inflict pain on somebody else’s life , especially (!) when there are children involved. I get that most affairs don’t end in the partner being left for the affair but ultimately it always comes out and no matter what you do in terms of therapy etc. it is so incredibly hard to regain trust, often this ultimately will lead to the end of the relationship, divorce etc. And even in the “best case scenario” from the point of view of the affair when the man or woman leaves the partner for the affair you will have broken up a relationship/marriage /family! Yes, I know the old argument that you can’t break into a relationship if everything is fine / not already broken. But honestly ! When in life is ever everything perfect, impermeable and hunky dory ?? You don’t t know what might be behind the problems of the couple, a bereavement, job loss or something else that has shaken the relationship. It is not always the fault of the partner (as the cheating partner will always want to make you believe). And seriously, would you even want to be with someone who cheats and deceives the partner (often over a long period of time) and then leaves to let the partner deal alone with all the sh** instead of dealing with problems in a mature way?
Ladies, ladies! Someone who does that to someone else will ultimately do the same to you! Don’t try to “win”those people over who are just passive aggressively avoiding their own problems and deal with your own baggage. It’s not for the cheated on partner to bear the pain of that.
Sorry if this sounds very harsh, my heart really goes out to everyone who has suffered in an affair, but people should take responsibility for their actions. And once you have been on the receiving end of this you will see this through different eyes!
^^^^^^^^Ding Ding Ding! We have a winnah!^^^^^^
Totally agree
Wow, this resonates with me too!
Just ended a four month affair, well it took me a month to get the nerve to do that. I’ve honestly never been in that situation before and as you say, didn’t take too kindly to boing pushed in a corner/the fallback girl. The stuff about avoiding deeper issues is so true. Basically I’ve been divorced from my partner for a year and have two young children and it may seem strange, but I had no trouble mourning the end of the relationship (we really couldn’t stand each other by the end). What I didn’t take time to grive though, was the loss of family life and a certain level of security and comfort. I guess this is work I have to do now before I go out there again.
I do have one dilemma though – the guy I had an affair with was a friend before we err messed up, and I’d like us to be freinds again as we move in the same social circles and appreciate each other’s company. Is this a good idea or am I just fooling myself?
I think you’re just fooling yourself Claire. Keep it as acquaintances only. Don’t put the added temptation or stress in yourself. Look out after yourself, especially you can not trust him to do that for you.
There’s no chance of my giving in to temptation, believe you me. But if I’m to be honest, I am getting a perverse and vengeful pleasure from withholding sex and affection (obviously he’s more than keen now that he can no longer have me…ugh…) and that’s not really healthy, is it. Typing this stuff out to strangers helps me process my thoughts, thanks (as I probably wouldn’t admit this to my friends).
I’ve always felt that when the guy has no more chase, or sense of a hunt so to speak he will fade away. Once you have sex with a friend it changes things for that moment, and way down the road as well. But who knows… every situation is different. I personally would like to keep him as a friend as well but not sure how that would be.
So how do you keep a ‘chase/hunt’ going?
Well, the hunting dawgs eventually tree the prey and the prey gets “eradicated.”
Sometimes it’s a good idea to ask yourself where this is gonna logically end before you even begin.
The “friend thing” means WHAT? You are both keeping the door open, or you are not going to ignore each other publically? A friend does not cause the other friend grief. Keeping a relationship platonic after it has been much more than that could be a fantasy, IMO.
I had an affair with an engaged man and it still hasn’t finished. I even left to go travelling for 5 months where we continued to speak to each other. Before I left he kept telling me mixed things- one day he wanted to be with me/ didn’t love his fiancé, next day he couldn’t leave her.
Since I’ve returned back from travelling he’s told me he’s fallen back in love with her (yep sure) yet he still continues to see me and sleep with me. I’ve had a bit of a tough time at home with my parents (alcoholic father and mother who won’t leave him) and I just don’t feel like I’m strong enough to break it off with him. We barely see each other and just speak over the phone (all on his terms of course), when I tell him we need to break it off he doesn’t even seem to care and just tells me do whatever you want me to do. This hurts me so much as previously he would tell me he loves me etc and now he doesn’t even care if it ends.
I don’t understand why I am not strong enough to tell him to jog on and do one. Everytime in the past we have ended it we always come back to speaking and going round in the circles.
We used to work with each other which is why I found the whole thing hard to break of. But now I don’t even have that excuse anymore.
Most of my friends are all in relationships and I feel if I completely break it off with him I won’t have anyone left and il be completely alone.
Recently a guy I was dating broke it off with me and now I just feel that no one wants me/ will want me in the future and I may as well just settle for crumbs.
I hear you and feel your struggle. You don’t have to settle for crumbles. Do whatever it takes to fall in love with yourself, with life itself, little by little, on YOUR terms. Take a break from dating. Men will come to you, but wait until you’re in a good place to be more selective and discerning so you can look out better for yourself. Okay?
I will share part of my experience since I gained just as much from reading the responses to this article, if not more, than the article itself.
I was the other woman, and still am to some degree. Married dude reached out to me on social media a little more than a year ago. I had no idea who he was. I’d never noticed him before despite him being an online “friend”. He lived far away and was upfront about being married with kids. I’d never had an affair before aside from minor fooling around once on a plane 2 decades prior. I did not intend for anything to happen with the online guy. I don’t do online dating nor see ANYTHING serious coming from it. It began as an interesting and welcome distraction from my life of school, work and a lackluster quasi relationship I was exploring in person. I ended that relationship within 2 weeks of beginning one with the online guy. Most guys who contact me online do not hold my interest for more than a day or 2- maybe! This one captured my interest and never let it go. He contacted me in some way all throughout the day every single day. Words, photos, voicemails, sometimes videos.
I ended it 2 weeks into it when I noticed my feelings were starting to grow and get serious. I’m a huge advocate for women and female empowerment. Integrity and trust mean the world to me. It was a huge betrayal to myself. I’ve never been addicted to drugs before but from what I’ve heard about it, that how’s it felt- like withdrawing from heroin. It still feels like that, over 7 months after I finally needed it. Going through withdrawal was the hardest part for me.
I generally enjoy my time alone and being single. I’ve dated a decent amount throughout my life. I’ve been married and am on great terms with my ex. He travels a lot but we stay in touch. I’ve told him about many guys I’ve dated (it’s been 15 years since our divorce), but I never told him about the online guy because I was ashamed to tell him. He’s still be friends with me and love me, I know, but he’ll be disappointed in me when I finally tell him, which I will, just not yet. I’m JUST starting to move past the feelings of immense shame and guilt for having allowed myself to get so involved with a married guy who has 2 young kids (3 & 6).
Foolish and stupid are not words I generally use to describe myself. I can be a bit naive at times, but stupid, no. I’m not the self deprecating type, yet having being the other woman for 6 months made me suffer my own harsh judgements for several looooong months after I ended it.
It took me 6 attempts to finally end it for good. I broke up with him once a month, on average. I gave it a solid 2 months at the end to explore and be open to what it was like if I didn’t fight it. At its best the happiest feelings were too fleeting and unsustainable for me to justify all that I was sacrificing to continue. I could hardly believe that someone who claimed to love me so much and whom I felt immense love, attraction and appreciation from could want me to continue to be in that kind of situation. I knew I couldn’t trust his judgement. I had to trust my own and summon the strength to leave it all. The good and the bad.
We only spent 10 days total in person together (3 the first time. 7 the second) when I went to visit him, but combine that with daily communications, many common interests, and romantic reciprocity and it’s a legit relationship that I have too little credit at first, until I met him in person 3 months into it. I ended it right before I flew home, but then he was there for me during a crisis at the airport when no one else could help me and I was hooked for another week.
I ended it again and felt sorry for him because of his problems at home with his wife and hardships with work. I didn’t want to abandon him despite knowing that he was drowning me along with him. It felt like I was in quicksand. It was horrible. I’ve never felt so conflicted in a situation, especially a romance in my life!??!
I cried for almost every day for 2-3 months after I ended. I DID think of his poor wife often! From the beginning I told him that she and every woman deserves to know the truth. I didn’t care so much that he was married but that he was lying to his wife. I hated that. It killed me that I was enabling him to do something that I totally stood against. I was depressed for 6-7 months. It’s only been 3-4 weeks since I’ve come out of that depression. I huge help was that I was always honest with my friends and family about the guy. Everyone knew I was in love. He was very romantic and often told me he loved me and did all kinds of sweet things, but it was never enough for me because I constantly felt confined, which is not my style. I was honest about my involvement with a married man, but I was not proud. I was “resigned” because withdrawal was too hard. Each time I broke it off I managed to go a little longer without contact. First 24 hours. Then 3 days. Then 7 days, but I kept going back. I tried being “just friends”. I mean, it was “only online”. How much harm could it really do?? As many others have said, “never again……” God help me.
He actually emailed me a couple of days ago to send me a PDF of a book he told me about last year. I feel like it’s a test. Normally I’d at least say thank you, but I have not and will.not. My last email to him (more than a week ago. He has emailed me to ask if I was ok after a snowstorm) told him that I must kill our relationship before it kills me, that I will not pay it any attention any longer. We’re hardly in touch, but I have responded to him at times and was telling him that I will no longer even do that. And I didn’t. I do appreciate the book, but not him putting “feelers” out for me. He can and needs to just leave me alone.
I won’t lie. It’s easiER for me, but still hard because what I felt and shared with him was such a unique and amazing love and experiences in ways that I’ve never had with anyone. The things we have in common are unlike anyone I’ve ever known. The mutual intensity and curiosity was intoxicating. It was our curiosity that got us so into each other and it is essentially what helped me move on from him. My creative spirit saved me, as did the love, encouragement and support do my friends. Journaling helped a lot too as did meditation and prayer. And self-induced multiple orgasms. I highly recommend all of those things- done consistently- for those looking to move on. I worked on being kinder, more compassionate and patient with myself. I will date again but I’ve taken a break since him in order to fall in love with myself and life again because I was a wreck for a while. It really sucked!! But I made it THROUGH hell…I didn’t take up residence there. That it vital! You CAN live without certain people and those who love you WELL will help and encourage you to live your best with and without them. Self love IS the best love. And all relationships benefit when it’s practices. At first it felt nearly impossible for me to love myself as much as my affair guy did. I had been in love with myself and life before and that version of me felt like a far away dream….I was totally down and out, drinking too much alcohol, smoking cigarettes too often when I don’t even usually smoke (except when stressed or depressed). I’d lost my sense of worth, meaning and purpose. Little my baby step little, I began to climb, to rise and wipe off the quicksand. I didn’t fall back in at times, but I kept pulling and resisting and clawing my way out, back to freedom, with courage, focus and tenacity.
Thank God!!!!! I learned a great deal! And hope I never ever ever ever go through anything as painful as that in my life.
Good luck to you all and God bless…
Bravo, thanks for this. Your vulnerability to tell your truth is so helpful to others.
Thank you … I know exactlllllly what you went through. It is like coming down off of a drug and it takes every single bit of your sanity to push him away. It kills you to not communicate with him as well… I’m so there.
One last thing, I held on and went back in the beginning because he kept saying he thought his wife was going to leave him and I hadn’t met him yet so it didn’t seem as “serious”. However, like someone else said, did I really want to be with someone whom I KNOW lies and cheats on a woman he claims to love? I knew that I could be in his wife’s position someday. Did I really want that for myself?? Absolutely not! But continued on like a drug addict for 6 months….there’s a lot to be said for sheer will and discipline. I’m soooo glad and grateful I did somehow summon the strength & of love my character and of integrity and honor. It wasn’t easy!! But TOTALLY worth the efforts….real love and freedom always are.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I can relate to everything you said. I am going through withdrawl right now. Song heard on the radio, movies or TV shows, thoughts of places we met for lunch all bring a flood of emotion and tears. I am glad that you can cut off from him. I have to see this married man once a week and more because we are in a preforming group together.
It is a challenge to keep sanity and integrity in tact.
I’m sitting at my desk tearful to your words. I knew there was something there all along. Putting it into words or a clear story has been hard to admit and see. Thank you once again.
Spot on Natalie. The one time I got involved with a married man it was because I had given up on finding someone and having my happy ending. I knew this and still continued. This man had shown interest for years but I always ignored him. He caught me at a vulnerable moment. I didn’t want a relationship with him, it was just an attraction thing for me so I was able to end it before we had sex. But his wife still found out and I still regret the pain I caused her.
Love this blog! I don’t even know if you can label me as the OW, but I have felt that way. I’ve known my male BF for some time now – we were introduced at a graduation party by my best friend. I fell for him immediately. We texted constantly and flirted. He would randomly stop by or have me over for a beer or two sometimes. Hugs and a quick peck on the cheek. Well he started to disappear on the weekends when I would suggest we go somewhere and have fun. My radar went off knowing something was wrong — he called me and was very honest that he has a GF but she lives in another state. He’s also not that happy with her and doesn’t trust her. I quickly backed off and we slowed down. Well over the past 2 years we have heated up and been doing just PG13 things . He has said how much he cares for me and has feelings and if things were different. He also does not want to hurt me so we have not slept together. Mind you he still is not happy with his GF but he stays because of some very complicated issues. I feel so pulled because I care deeply for him, and really understand him in a way that most people don’t. A lot of people think he is very intense with no humour but it’s far from that. He has opened up about many things that are personal and he reminds me of that. Sadly he tends to be an introvert so he does like his time away from both of us. I don’t get texts hardly at all and when I do not reply to him, he gets very uptight assuming I’m mad at him. The only way to talk to him is in person. He has flaws, I recognize that but I love his good points. I honestly don’t know if he will ever leave her but for his sanity I hope he does. I know a bit about her and have met her before and she can be cruel. Anyways, that’s my story… and it’s very difficult having him as a friend and caring so much for him. I feel at times he pushes away as well because he cannot handle the feelings towards me. Being the OW in this case I feel almost helps him realize that he is a great man and I’m proud of his accomplishments.
Leddy,
Your “being the OW in this case” prevents him from having to confront what a selfish, immature jerk he is. The reason he is in a relationship with someone (two people?) he doesn’t really want is because he lacks the emotional intelligence to do otherwise. Stop flattering yourself over his meager attentions. Being the second choice of a man with such a character is hardly a place of honor. The question you should be asking yourself is why you are getting such satisfaction out of competing with his girlfriend.
The GF is not the problem. Once that relationship ends, he will move on to another situation where he is dissatisfied and, instead of addressing the problems with the new GF, he will come crying to you (or to someone else if you are the unlucky new GF).
Oh boy. How has this man affected your ability to evaluate b.s.? You’re convinced that he’s super special. He’s so special he cant text. He’s so special he cant get out of a bad relationship with a long distance girlfriend. He’s so special he doesn’t even like being with you (yes its because he’s an ‘introvert’).
I feel that there is a ‘men that talk too much and women that believe them’ syndrome. It seems like guys can excuse themselves from all sorts of shady lousy behavior if they just have a good story to spin. And we seem to feel super special to have been chosen for these personal stories, and so excuse all behavior.
He’s very ‘damaged’ and ‘special’ and ‘intense’ – no one else understands, I do, I’m his Snow White, locked in a comatose relationship waiting for the special kiss. This is just lousy tepid behavior on his part, and he’s managed to convince you that the fact that he treats you badly makes you special. He’s so very smart.
“Very honest?” When? When you confronted him with the objective realities of his perfidy? That’s not “honest,” it’s “busted.” And if he does leave her as you fantasize, you know who you’ll be? The Transition Person. At best. Ya know what the function of a Transition Person is? The ultimately discarded tissues/toilet paper after being used for some practical purposes.
He stays with her because of “complicated issues?” Try me: I’m the Queen of Cutting the Complicated Crapola. Decades of experience. Published in all the Professional Journals of Chump-hood. There’s nothing complicated about servicing a harem: It’s called Time Management.
“Sadly he does like his time away from both of us..” Sweet Stuff, there’s nothing quite so sad as a delusional cheerleader who thinks she’s the only one on the team. Or there is *only* one other but she’s on the JV team and you’re Varsity material. And how convenient, he’s only around when it’s convenient for him. Like when he “randomly” stops by or invites you over for a beer. Notice, neither are in a public setting. Wonder why.
“…I really understand him in a way most people don’t.” Because he told ya so, huh? Just like he told you straight up about the long term girlfriend/wife or wife in waiting. Who isn’t really his wife/live in. Who lives in another state. Not at his place or just across the street. Or in his case, alley.
“…he has opened up about many things that are personal and he reminds me of that.” Why? WHY? Why do you need to be reminded? Oh, so you can feel reassured you’re as special to him as you wanna believe you are. He has all kinds of credibility and honesty even though he “self-reports” by editing significant realities of his life. About those “personal things?” They’re neither “personal” nor real.
“The only way to talk to him is in person…” In other words, at times and places he specifies. How very interesting-and controlling. Wonder why.
“…the past 2 yrs. we have heated up and been doing just PG13 things.” Well, considering the maturity evidenced here, that sounds appropriate. The first picture that popped into my head was Garfunkle and Oats singing, “The Bible Exemption.”I think that’s the title of their hilarious song about not doing the nasty by a “work-around.” YouTube it-depending on your sense of humor you’ll be appreciative or appalled.
“I know a bit about her and have met her before and she can be cruel.” You “know” what Mr. Complicated Compromised Credibility tells you. Period. Cruel? You don’t think that’s a shit ton of Projection by him-considering the cruelty with which he plays you? Only at his convenience? Cruel is playing homo sapien when you’re a common garter snake-not exactly kind. Or honest. Or indicative of integrity.
“(Texts! Not often! Randomly!) I must reply or he gets very uptight assuming I’m mad at him.” When an alpha pack male senses one of his females is wandering too far afield, he will use what ever force is necessary to get her back in his herd/harem. Just checkin’ to make sure you’re available when, where and how he wants you. At his convenience of course. Randomly. Wonder why.
“I feel at times he pushes me away…because he can not handle the feelings towards me.” Um, no: You’re messing with his Time Management/Service Schedule. He’s not “intense,” just completely self-absorbed.
“Being the OW in this case I feel almost helps him realize that he is a great man and I’m proud of his accomplishments.” What “accomplishments” would those be-aside from convincing you of what you want to believe? And pulling it off for two years? Yeah, that’s a pretty long con. Butcha can’t con the willing and hubris is a helluva hurdle to facing Reality. I’m sorry, but you’re a “Legend in Your Own Mind,” a Hero of the Deluded Kind.
C’mon. You know you’re being played. And it hurts. A lot. This is not about “he has a few flaws.” It’s about you and your need to believe. Look at the objective facts: Ask yourself what needs of YOUR’S are being met by engaging in a non-existant relationship with a de facto unavailable-and yes, cruel-guy. He’s not “great.” He’s not even “average.” He’s a selfish, petty, straight up dishonest playa who majored in Harem Herd Management: He now has a Ph.D in Common
Con-ing. He’s already gone (if he ever was present) but you need to believe a ghost is just another person’s imagination-not your’s. Even though you’re the one who’s been ghosted. For two.long.years.
Leddy, time to get the Lead out and put some High Test in your brain so it uses all cylinders instead of backfiring for lack of introspection octane and a reality testing tune up.
‘I’m sorry, but you’re a “Legend in Your Own Mind,” a Hero of the Deluded Kind.’
Tundra Woman – are you a poet or writer of some sort? Your straight-up, blunt-force honesty combined with an obvious knack for words makes for compelling reading! Loving this!
I agree…love Tundra Woman’s turn of phrasing. I particularly liked “he couldn’t be any greasier if he were a deep fryer”!
Well, no actually, I’m d)None of the above. I’m an old widow broad who lives alone with an old cat (but just one-Imma a cliche, I know) very remotely. I’ve spent my life working with combat vets (not the VA.) I still volunteer by phone with vets who have a phone shoved in one ear and a weapon in the other. Literally confronting the reality of your own death time after time in combat has a way of stripping down “complicated” to it’s bare bones essentials: The rest is just details. Over decades that degree of honesty has an impact that becomes global in your own thinking and life.
This place was a “stumbled on” for me. I’m not a fan of Cosmo-On-Line sites at all but I read here a lot (more than I comment) because I deeply respect the woman who runs this site: Authenticity matters. Ms. Natalie has it in abundance. I also equally respect the people who post here. If an individual is willing to put their hardest, most personal heartbreaking experiences out here, they’re adults and deserve the same level of Adult Truth in return. Anything less IMO is disrespectful. Not to mention disingenuous. They don’t want or need to have their hand patted, “There, there, lemme give ya an adult binkie” or a Greek Chorus of pearl-clutching PC crap. Adults can live with Reality no matter how painful it is initially a *whole hella lot easier than uncertainty.*<That's the worst mental state people grapple with, in my experience. We're tougher, more capable than we know.
Sometimes I wonder when I read a narrative if it's trolling or just some other flavor of cray cray. So I'll sit on my hands-which don't work very well and hunt-n-peck with index fingers is the totality of my "keyboard skills." Or it's so far beyond the realm that can be in any way meaningfully impacted through this medium, better to just let it go by.
You all matter. A lot. And I care about you all, probably more than I should. We're all equal here: Our shared humanity (if not shared reality) means there's gonna be different voices, ways of expressing the same Truths about what it means to be each one of us, to be human and live in this world. I learn from you too. Ex: Usually when I see or read phrases like "multiple.." the next word is "fatalities." I've never "loved myself"-as Tina sings, "What's love got to do, got to do with it?"We can live in a contrived Happy Meal place or we can live in a genuine but sometimes exquisitely painful reality called our lives just as they are, not as we want them to appear.
Yk. We're all "broken" in some way or another. But when you look at a stained glass creation, what do you see? A bunch of disparate colored pieces-or a beautiful work of art?<That's what I see.
So I'm honored. I see the greatness in everyday people: That's the gift I am given with every post, every comment. It's priceless. It's a wonderfully unique creation. As are each one of you.
Thanks to all of you: You all be mighty MII-TEE and I'm just here to remind you of that occasionally.
Tundra – you are one remarkable individual, and I only wish I had the same outlook and insight on things like you do. Anyone who crosses your path on a daily basis, even at the salon is truly blessed. I’m jealous of them! Carry on oh wise one!!!
More power to you Tundra Woman! You simply rock
Tundra and everyone else who replied : Thankyou! First and foremost I appreciate your bluntness , I need to hear this. I think with these men we tend to fall into a sense of being comfortableness. We know what they want, they are okay with us, but sadly someone always gets hurt. I am finally really seeing this man for who he is. His selfishness floors me – I have been nothing but sweet and caring. Why be so inconsiderate to me and ignore me, the next be very sweet and talkative? It messes with the mind. He has in the past helped with my families business. Volunteering during our busy season and really enjoys time with my brother. One year he didn’t get a call from my brother asking if he would help out – I got the third degree. He was so upset and heart broken thinking he had upset my family somehow. He’s more upset about hurting them … what about me?!? From the other replies I have sat down and really thought about what I am expecting from this mess. His GF is cheating on him. That’s a fact. He had trust issues. That’s a fact. Do I trust him? Hell no that’s a fact. Can I see myself having a relationship with him? No. That is a fact and this is why. I did not fall for this mans baggage and other issues, I fell for his looks and charm. I see him, and my heart skips a beat. Is him being so introverted and selfish with his time and not giving me anything worth it? No! Fact! I have tried over and over to change him into what I thought he could be in my mind– not going to happen. I have to work on changing how I think about him and just stop! I don’t want to be the OW/BF anymore…it’s been 1 sided for way 2 long and my heart and head cannot stand it any longer. Sick of his excuses and silence! Time to work on me… this is going to be a new chapter and I really appreciate everything I have read and will continue to read. Cheers.
You’re gorgeous. I love your comments; Nat should think about offering you a part-time column on this subject. As someone who spent four on-off years with a married man, wife/kids in another country, and lost myself in the process – really it made ill – I know that your words are exactly what’s needed.
When you finally escape you realise how much of it was a fantasy of your own making and how the guy who seemed so special was basically acting like a turd.
And don’t kid yourself that you are the only one, somehow different or the man was conflicted/confused etc.
The worst thing you have to face is that he never really cared about you at all (I think the inability to face this is what keeps us stuck…)
Thanks sister, you’re doing good work here.
This comment is for Tundra.
Aww thanks! You’re very kind. Decades ago I over-heard one of my colleagues tell a vet, “I’m gonna refer you to (TW) Ruthless Compassion, the Patron Saint of Befuddled Brains and MIA Minds…”
Leddy,
The rub here is that it is YOU who has convinced yourself that it is your “special love” that enables this man to open up to you and *blossom*. Back to the original question posed in Natalie’s post – what is it in your past that makes you need to create a situation that makes you the hero/rescuer of another person’s life?
Why is rescuing him the thing that makes you feel special? Why are you so willing to forget yourself? Sit down and just fantasize for a moment…ask yourself “what is MY ideal situation?” Surely it isn’t a Waiting for Godot relationship…waiting for someone to acknowledge you. So why are you spending so much time and energy on someone who rarely puts effort into you? Why are you willing to wait around and put your own relationship potential on hold for him?
The issue here is not the “user”…it’s not “him”. The issue is you. Why are you so willing to place YOUR life on hold? Why are you looking for permission from him in order to really live YOUR life? He is certainly living HIS life – having his everyday relationship with one woman as well as a side relationship with you that supports him but requires no support from him.
Maybe you are into the ego thing – thinking if “she” were enough he would not seek you out. Can’t stress enough how incorrect that thought is. You did say you fell for him immediately, so if this is a case of his looks igniting wild lust in you, then nothing he ever does will be wrong in your eyes….even if he does it right in front of your face. He’ll claim confusion, or past trauma, or whatever other BS tends to work for him…and you’ll soothe him because you are so wrapped up in your lust. It happens to everyone…not judging. Just…be aware of why you are willing to put up with the BS.
‘if “she” were enough he would not seek you out. Can’t stress enough how incorrect that thought is.’
How come?
I lot of cheaters dupe the OW/OM into believing they are cheating because their established partner is inadequate. Not true. Leddy’s “friend” isn’t behaving this way because the girlfriend is lacking. He is behaving this way because HE is lacking. Instead of resolving his issues he’s using Leddy to avoid them.
The girlfriend may very well have her share of issues, but the responsible, considerate and healthy thing for him to do is either work on that relationship or end it. No one is perfect and people who use their partner’s failings as a justification for an affair or a way to garner sympathy are only covering for their own inadequacies.
A lot of cheaters. Not I lot.
Just a typo….
The cheating spouse/partner is not searching for another domestic situation. They are just looking for a temporary break from their otherwise routine life. They spin fantasies in the heads of their side-piece targets in order to gently and subtly coerce them into agreeing to be a side relationship. They dangle “hope of more” with no intention of giving more. The cheater has no desire to end their primary relationship because it mostly works for him (or her). They were just trying to spice up their own lives.
Many times, the “cheated on” partner is fully aware of the existence of side relationships, but for many reasons, they deal with those infidelities and also have no desire to end the partnership. They want the cheater in their lives, warts and all.
I think that is the decision that has to be made. Do you want the person in your life, do you accept the way he (or she) is, warts and all. Flaws and all. Foibles and all. A scene from one of my favorite old movies has a wealthy woman explaining why she continually allows a cheating cad back into her life:
He’s no good, but he’s what I want. I’m not a nice person, and neither is he. He knows I know he’s just what he is. He also knows that I don’t care. We belong together because we’re both weak and can’t seem to help it.
If you want something different than what the cad is offering, it is time to say goodbye to the cad.
Brilliant Elgie.
Hi Lauren, to answer your question …
Men who do this, manipulate women to get their needs met and so skilfully usually have done it many, many, many times before. All those BS excuses about the wife/girlfriend being insufficient – choose the adjective – is just them playing us for our insecurities, and latent desire to be chosen, to win against other women.
Believe me on this. There will always be reasons, obstacles and reasons why he can’t be with you – this is a total lie. If a man wants to be with you, he would be.
His wife, children, family/financial responsibilities are NEVER the reason why he isn’t with you publicly and permanently. And just think about this for a minute: if these reasons/excuses blah were true, what does this say about you in the list of his priorities?
We women need to be honest about why we accept this substandard treatment from men (and yes, there are multiple, often interlocking reasons linked to our lack of self-esteem, conditioning) and also accept the fact that we fall for this notion that we can somehow ‘win’ a man from another woman.
This is me speaking from experience, unfortunately. This idea of winning the married man I spent four too-long years with was not so prominent in my list of justifications – as his wife/family were in another country and didn’t impinge on our daily life together – but I know that it was never about her and her so-called problems.
The man I was with cheated on his long-term girlfriend and then cheated on his wife and then cheated on me. This was just what he did; this was him and had nothing to do with any of the women who fell into his orbit.
We need to show more solidarity to other women, not get involved with taken men and stop listening to this crap men spit from their mouths.
Elgie- you have very good questions! I have asked myself these things, and I know the answers. I guess it’s just a case of not wanting to admit it, and hear it. I need to do both though! You mentioned him living his life – you are so right. He goes along not having a clue of how much this has upset me. I have considered talking to him and telling him how I feel but would it really do any good? At this point I just want a break from him.. I really do. As I said above I fell for his looks and charm but everything inside is baggage that I did not want. No more trying to be a Florence nightingale !!
I spent four years competing with an alcoholic, abusive, humorless, borderline mentally retarded, convicted felon (stabbed man with a box cutter), face and body more like a man than woman. I begged him time and time again what is lacking in me that she has? His response was nothing. Turns out he is very mentally ill. I’m not making excuses for him. I’m trying to figure out what the hell is wrong with me that it took me so long to see the futility of it all, to waste all this time on someone not worthy of me. My dad died when I was ten. Maybe that’s part of it.
Maria, I do believe you’ve identified a very significant event. Your intuition is defiantly pegged to True North-props to you for insight and willingness to do the heavy lifting of introspection. The death of a parent is a big deal at any age: For a child, it’s exponentially “bigger.” Remember as kids, our parents are gods. By the time we’re 3, we’re very aware without their care and protection we would perish. Can you talk a little more about that? May I ask, how did he die? Thanks.
I knew I had some issues in my life and actually sought help for it. Funny thing was the guy I paid to advise me ended up being the married manipulative, using man that took advantage.
As much as I hate what I did, I’m glad we only slept together once.
I remember going back to his Hotel. We probably would’ve had another go but as fate would have it he had another girl in his room. Obviously not his wife. And he left me crying and screaming in the rain. What truly kills me is that even though I left and never saw him again I remember a deep part of me wanting to just go back to his room.
Having that thought continues to scare me. Im glad I walked away that night. I’m glad I stopped anything further with him. But the yearning to want to go back to him is what made me change my entire life. That was the lowest point of my life and I vowed I would never do that to myself again.
Even though I came out that situation ok and currently happy I remember having those thoughts and it terrifies me to ever be like that again.
Eioiowwww! This post got a lot of chatter — guess a lot of us have “been there, done that.” I think it’s not so much the action(s) it/themselves, it’s more like, the why?g-d why? of it all.
I personally don’t really believe that we go out of our way looking to cheat, “it happens.” People are human, men have wide varieties of attractions and indiscretions outside of marriage that I don’t believe we should be the fall gals for.
A TRULY faithful, devoted man is rare, IMHO, for the simple fact that they tend to choose women based on things that don’t facilitate long term, committed relationships — they set themselves up to fail commitment by basing their standards based on looks, sex, etc. — that means they will always be looking for the next thrill instead of the comfort and security of ONE WOMAN for LIFE.
Have you ever read all the (bad, sexist) dating advice regarding “how to keep him interested” or “why he suddenly loses interest”? Yeah.
So, I don’t get the sense that any of us here are cruel, mean hearted, Bioches with no character. SOME women are, mind you. . .but I get the sense that we here discussing this and trying to sort it out and learn are vulnerable prey to certain situations that are bad for us. It takes a lot of scruples and introspection to not get fooled again (. . .and again. . .and again. . .). . .and finally either accept being alone or get real about real relationships with love, care, trust, respect — which cheaters both IN the act and PARTICIPATING/FACILITATING can’t give, to be clear.
A while ago, Nat wrote something along the lines of “don’t beat yourself up” for making mistakes, or some such. Maybe this is a thing of being drawn to these EUM’s, the marriage he (or she) is in is a mere inconvenience that fuels the fantasy b/c we delude ourselves into believing that WE are really the one the person wants to be with, and the wife and family are mere chatter, an inconvenience toward that goal.
It probably NEVER crosses our minds that the guy is EUM and can never give us a real relationship, trading for riding things out the dysfunctional way they are now. Oh no, we are patient and believe his outright lies/half truths, believing “someday.”
As such, we tell ourselves friggin’ ANYTHING that will fuel the fantasy story rather than the real one. Someone above said something about “no more midnight phone calls.”
Well! That’s a gateway drug — I’ve been groomed many times with that one, oh boy! We tell ourselves that he’s being really attentive by taking the time to call so late instead of that he’s a cheating bastard who needs the curb for companionship. And similar behaviors. . .and, can I tell you at first I said to myself MANY stories that would explain the behavior . . .behavior that is crumbs, not dating me as a reasonable person open to a real relationship. . .WITHOUT CHECKING!! You really do have to ask these AC’s if they are married or in a relationship, if they are fully single, b/c these days it is very easy to get sucked in.
It took a WHILE to get hip to these games, b/c it is somewhat natural(again, why?) to assume and make excuses like, “oh, he must be working late,” “oh the daughter’s game must have run late so he couldn’t call earlier”. . .holding on to ANY STORY that will make him not the bad guy he is.
I wrote a while ago that many times (once I got wise) it seemed to me that men were testing me to see if I’d be open to cheating with weird, crummy behavior to hook me in so that *I* would jump first so they wouldn’t have to face the fact that they are cheating liars. So it would seem like I was so seductive and they couldn’t resist.
I’ve since stopped taking the bait. I hope everyone can go ahead and not feel so bad about what happened in the past or might be happening in the present.
But! Get wise. . .and get going, though!
Thank you misspricilla! Right on sister! So wise. I feel like I ate a healthy nurishing delicious meal.
If a cheating husband ends up overcoming the odds by divorcing his wife and marrying his girlfriend, how likely is the new couple to live happily ever after anyway? It seems like just a fantasy.
Lauren,
I divorced my husband for cheating and he eventually married his affair partner 5 years later when she got pregnant. They are still together many years later.
Natalie you are spot-on with this “They had often experienced a profound loss and/or some form of betrayal (which is in itself a loss) and felt so lost and broken that in the heat of anger, deep sadness and pain, they on some level vowed not to trust again (or to expose themselves to being hurt again) and so they gave up on genuine love and became open to the counterfeit kind.”
My exH’s affair partner was actually engaged at the time of the affair. When the affair started she was living with her mother and step-father and watching them get divorced. Her mother had finally got up the courage to divorce this abusive (2nd) husband. She had also previously divorced the girls real father for cruelty.
So it seems that there is a pattern emerging here.
Add to that the age gap between my exH and her ( 11 years) it seems like she was looking for a stable father-figure.
I found out much later that my husband came from a family where his mother physically abused his father.
So here we had two broken, needy, people desperately looking for someone else to fill a gap in themselves.
Are they happy? Who knows?
So here we had two broken, needy, people desperately looking for someone else to fill a gap in themselves.
Are they happy? Who knows?
This is what I was trying to get to and didn’t quite articulate well/to the point when I spoke on it before: That there is likely something wrong with a guy who cheats that you just can’t see, that he is hiding, perhaps even from himself.
Many, many guys/people in general — just b/c he’s married doesn’t mean that he can “do relationships” — waiting for him to be functional when you started out dysfunctional isn’t good for you, I think.
I had a brief and regrettable moment fairly recently. At the time the tale I told myself (AND HIM!) was, “We can only be “just friends” because he has a girlfriend.” And then, after the first, well, rather immediate mauling of each other, I was like, “He must have broken up with her.”
*sigh* — oh, no no no.
Briefly, once I rightsided my own boat that had capsized, relationshipwise — it came to light that the guy was an absolute mess and not fit for a relationship, not with me, not with the girlfriend, not at any point ever in life without, you know, counseling or something — which of *COURSE* he would never do, just only sniff panties. Drama here, drama there when I backed out of something I should not have led myself into in the first place.
I said too much, probably — but I ended up asking him why he chose to be in a dysfunctional relationship in the first place (with *her*) — of course he couldn’t answer — and informed him that would not be what I was looking for and that it would be unrealistic to jump into something with me when he hadn’t figured out the mistakes of his other relationship in order not to repeat them (with me) and I didn’t want to wait for it/him to all be sorted.
And, of course, he began to behave strangely and backpedaling when I caught “real feelings” and it wasn’t a “just for fun fling” for him any more — he knew he couldn’t reciprocate, girlfriend or sans/girlfriend so up came all the classic, confusing EUM assclownery.
Oh, and also? I had/have a sneaking suspicion that the guy was abused as a child — dirty Catholic business, that. He was in his 50s — the age back in the day would have coincided with when church scandals started coming out.
It wasn’t making sense to me over time, why he was SO! hothothot and then SO! coldcoldcold, physically, how he couldn’t have both in one, decent relationship and wasn’t *really* opening up emotionally — hard to explain, it was a feeling/observation/detective work sort of thing.
So.
Say all that to say — look very carefully, *VERY* *CAREFULLY* at a man who is (in)disposing himself to cheating and other dysfunction in a “relationship” with you.
As for me? I am actually not *quite* certain, to this day and it was almost two years ago this happened — whether or not there was also something broken in me that caused me to get wrapped up in the situation — I felt/feel that it was an “oops” — it wasn’t something I went out of my way to do, although yes, I had been hurt pretty badly previously and am, in many ways, still reluctant, if not completely closed off, to trust.
miss- your last paragraph had my jaw dropped. Your entire post really spoke to me, especially about the EU’s possible abuse (mine had been as a child), but as you said you didn’t know if there was something broken in you… I had been through the ringer with 2 other relationships and I also did not expect to get into this sort of thing. At the time I felt he was helping me get over what I had been through. Turns out he was slowly ripping the band aid off little by little …I’ve got to work on stitching myself up and moving forward.
Natalie said: chaotic feelings feel like home. . .the kicker is, why in hell? That feeling of “home,” like a dog or pigeon or something. . .driven, like basic instinct? Well, it’s subconscious, at least at the beginning when it all starts. SOMETHING in a decent enough, reasonable enough person should kick in to say “this is wrong, this should not be home, I do not want this home,” no?
Hey Leddy — I’m glad+sad my ramblings make sense to someone, thank you. What a weird thing to bond over, eh? It’s hard to find the words to tell the truth(s), much more “fun” to just lie and live and deny. . .for a minute, then it very much just sucks.
For my portion, I had done A LOT of healing on my own at that time and wanted a relationship to, what, finish healing? Don’t know. . .but I was truly shocked, confused and hurt that I got mixed up with a cheater-liar. At least I ended it quickly enough — like within a month or so. I was feeling TERRIBLE about, you know, coming in second. And at least I said along the lines of “Look man, you need to break up with that to get with this.”
I feel and felt that a reasonable relationship and caring would be really good for me. But not if I keep attracting, however subconsciously. . .mess.
And. . . .
*sigh* I’ll just come out and say what no one says– in my experience and with also my friends who had been cheated on, there was some level of hidden abuse in the man that either *HE* participated in (he was an abuser to a previous woman) or was perpetrated on (he was abused in childhood).
A lot of men, who don’t deal with feelings really, as is their general socialization — when something breaks in them they feel less manly and gain back their manhood by being promiscuous and/or unfaithful WITH a combination of being EUM. It’s a very strange combo that *seems* like a relationship, but isn’t.
I mean. . .I hate to get all up in people’s business that I don’t know, but these people in the public eye (say, movies stars) that cheat and cheat and/or divorce and divorce and can’t be satisfied and settled — look way back, and you’ll see: an alcoholic or druggie parent, a narcisst parent who couldn’t be pleased, unstable upbringing in some way, being valued for looks only and therefore no real self develops — on and on.
It’s exaggerated and too public to seem real, but the core of stories of people like that, though they are famous? Plays out in real life with regular folk, too.
Say all that to say — look at him *and* you very diligently when y’all be creepin’. If you can live with whatcha look at fine but don’t be blind. If you can’t live with it over time well, work to do, work to do.
miss- I wish I could meet up with you and everyone else for a round table discussion. Trust me, this will do just fine! I read and reread what you just said. I find that when I don’t hear from him, I panic. I crave his attention in the form of flattery and flirting. I admit it. I haven’t ever really done that before. So when he goes silent and I don’t hear from him, I feel like I have to up my game and be ready for him because after all , he has no sex life with “her”. I know that is a total lie, I can read through that b.s.! My feeling about why he does what he does is because of his horrible childhood with alcoholic parents. During his life he has always had to prove himself to everyone and has always tried to be “the man!”. He has never felt like he fits in with any certain group of guys because he does march to the beat of his own drummer. I’ve watched as he has ruined friendships by doing what he does to me – he shuts people out. “Want to go to the bar with us? Want to go to the lake for the weekend with us?” Always a NO. But yet he complains that he can’t get close to people and trust them. Enter stage right me– he trusts me and has ever since we met. This entire thing has been years worth of back and forth and last year when I needed him the most (tradegy in the family), he was nowhere to be found. It’s coming up on the anniversary of that inna few days. He is aware of it but has, as usual, slinked away to crawl under a rock somewhere so no one can find him and see if he will be around to see the family. I know he won’t call or show up and yet sadly somewhere deep in my brain I wish soooo hard that he will change and surprise me. To be able to change my thinking overnight would be such a burden off of my shoulders. I want to, but it’s staying the course that is extremely tough. I cannot keep giving him more time that is so precious to me. Yes he has issues and I feel bad for him but I also know he can treat me with much more respect if he does honestly care. I doubt I’ll ever see that again… his feelings are so locked up tight that when he does say something you can almost mark it on a calendar. I refuse to let him win and make him think he has control anymore. Just sick of it.
Hey lady — Natalie and a bunch of people by proxy wrote about this kind of stuff a few posts ago, but I don’t remember which exact one/topics and also the discussion took various tangents.. .it all has the same themes, though — accepting crumbs, hooking you in based on something very flimsy, etc. I seem to remember saying or reading someone’s comment something along the lines of when you’re with a cheater/EUM/otherwise bad guy, somehow *his* feelings and behaviors take priority over *your* feelings.
You know what? The guy I dealt with hooked me in by saying that the “girlfriend” was “platonic” with no physical contact.
Like a doofus, I was all, “okay. . .” as if that made it better. It didn’t — I now realize that’s a hook b/c most women don’t want to sleep with a guy sleeping with other women in general, even in a regular dating situation. He HAS to say he’s not having sex with the attached partner. . .in order to get you to supply! Ever notice how that’s the *very first* thing they tell you?
I ended up thinking that particular lie through logically, and out loud. I ended up quite literally asking myself, and the guy, what normal man could stay day after day in a situation like that, a sexless one and not leave, post haste — even just to be with me on the legit! Like, what would de-motivate you to not raise up and leave?
“It’s complicated,” is it now. . .people end relationships to get with others every day. Given that, it ended up, in a perverse way, feeling bad to me to not be “good enough” to break them up!! sick, sick, I know.
The other bizarre thing about men is, if they stay with a woman he’s not sleeping with, it’s. . .because. . .he. . .loves! Her! Yes! And you’re just the sidetable to set his sex-glass on.
I dunno — for me, I just ended up getting really pissed off and grossed out that a man would step to me like that, only severe fantasy and continuing to lie to myself about the truth of the matter would have kept me in past a month, per *his* wishes and *his* agenda.
I’m embarrassed it took me even that long to get wise and I didn’t drop his ass and clarify whether he was single before the first make-out. But maybe I wouldn’t have figured out he wasn’t worth waiting for on the other side if I left too quick — dunno.
I ended up telling him that I doubted he would ever leave her b/c I couldn’t imagine having the feelings I was starting to feel and settling for less on a day to day, like the relationship he was supposedly in.
That’s when I realized he was SO lying — that he probably LOVED the girl and that’s why he made physical and emotional sacrifices, that he wished she would change (into ME) so that *their existing relationship* would be better!
It was a bad, sad, mad moment when I got woke. Trust me on this one. Hope you can get yourself there — to that rock and hard place though it may be.
miss- yeahhhh you nailed it. You are so right and I understand everything you are saying. Tonight I have been asking myself why I would wait a moment longer for him. He’s got a lot of cake at his finger tips and he doesn’t deserve it. His GF is the complete opposite of me so it makes sense .. hey “his life is balanced with us”. No no no… I’m learning so much and seeing what has happened with this friendship. Time to take the high road to better myself and find someone that will appreciate me.
I met a handsome dude at a fancy who lied and claimed to be totally single; It was a long distance involvement so I fell for it.
A year on, I had not heard from him in a month, so I checked the internet for more clues.His wedding announcement and registry at Bloomingdales popped up.
I told him off and never saw him again.The experience was trauma, because he took a sexual relationship I wouldn’t give to a married man by consent.
So then I dated with no self-esteem and got duped by a match.com sex predator.
Finally, I went to sexual abuse counseling and got on anti-depressants.The meds unleashed self respect I didn’t know I lacked. The counseling helped a lot.
I quit online dating, and never came in contact with either of the guys again.I filed a police report on the match.com guy.
If you need to, go to counseling.
You know what they say. The man who marries his mistress creates another vacancy!!
I ended a one and a half year “relationship” with this married man and had no real contact. Six months later he calls to tell me he is leaving his wife that weekend.
Stupidly I decide to see what he’s like as a “single” guy. Three years in and he was still sharing vacation properties with the ex ( not at the same time) while using my summer cottage and not letting me use his ski condo(in case the ex wanted to use it) Still spent holidays with her and his family and not me but telling me he left for me haha!!!
Pathetic. He still had his cake and could eat it too and I was still the second…or third or fourth string.
Been apart for going on two years and he is still caught up in his old life that he can’t seem to move on from.
So my point is….even if they leave for you they think you will put up with all the same types of bullshit because you had before so why not continue.
They are truly just self centered humans out to keep their own lives as good as they can and not really caring about you.
Don’t wait for them to leave their spouse because your place has already been reserved as the second fiddle and will stay that way.
Never again for me!!!!
Good luck all.
I think your advice applies more broadly, not just to affairs. If you’re in a relationship where you are ignored, disrespected, taken for granted or otherwise mistreated, things are not going to get better. Any situation where we are constantly making excuses for ourselves or our lover is a dead-end road.
Most relationships–not just affairs–settle into a pattern that becomes almost impossible to break. Once someone gets accustomed to treating us without the care and respect we deserve, things are unlikely to improve just because something external changes. The affair dynamic can be worse because you not only have a third party to blame for at least some of your troubles you also hold out hope that a future event will miraculously resolve all your relationship difficulties. This makes it so much easier to minimize and overlook the real problems with your lover and the relationship.
Steph,
Your post is spot-on – especially para 1 !
“Most relationships–not just affairs–settle into a pattern that becomes almost impossible to break. Once someone gets accustomed to treating us without the care and respect we deserve, things are unlikely to improve just because something external changes.”
And that really sums it up for me. I wasn’t getting the respect I deserved in my marriage ( I was a people-pleaser) so I finally stood up for myself and asked for a better deal. And guess what? – he started looking around for another “doormat” until he found one in his affair partner.
Unfortunately few of us see the dynamics when we are actually in the situation. It’s only when we are hurting enough we decide to do something about it.
Very true. Always start as you mean to go on.
Thanks!
A very well put, direct and shorter summary of everything I was trying to articulate on previous days. Thanks.
Hello Natalie, do you offer one on one coaching?
it is a well known fact that SOMETIMES married guys DO leave their wives to marry their girlfriend. But – there is a big ‘but’ here – this kind of thing (leaving his wife) usually happens within a short period of time. Usually within 12 months. WHY? Because the longer the affair goes the less ‘high’ he feels. It is not to say he stops loving his ‘other woman’, it is that he won’t be feeling as strong to push that plug. It is the very first 12 months, ladies, or you are OUT.
EDIT>>Promtional link has been removed.
Love,
That’s very true from what I’ve seen.
I know a few girls whose husbands left them for the affair partner. In all cases they did it within 2/3 months of meeting the other female.
They didn’t make a three-act drama out of it, just packed their bags and left.
I’m not saying that it was a morally justifiable action, rather that they didn’t string people along while they “ate cake”.
I’m aware of a few situations as well. All as Jane described. A quick resolution without lies or drama.
The way I see it: if you are the OW/OM and you are looking for support/solace online, your situation is pretty much hopeless even if your lover does eventually leave the other relationship.
Stephanie you said ‘ people with healthy relationship skills can’t relate because they don’t get anything out of a dysfunctional relationship the way some of us do. When they are treated badly, they just leave and don’t look back.” YES. a thousand times yes.
A person that will cheat with you will cheat on you! The reason why many of these men don’t end up with the mistress is because in the back of his mind he is thinking if she will cheat with me, then she may cheat on me if I date her. Sick huh! Walk away.
Evening! I have read the stories and mine mirrors a lot of them. I met a guy, we fell for eachother, we flirted , and wam! He tells me he has a girlfriend. I told him I didn’t want to ruin our friendship because st this point we had been friends for a solid 4 years. Well we both found that hanging out together would be tough. If other people were in the room, that was fine but us alone was bad news. His GF travels a lot for work (stewardess) . We have not, repeat not slept together. He is considering leaving his GF because he is not happy with the relationship. My problem is I don’t want him leaving her for me because I have my trust issues with him. I also get VERY frustrated because he tends to be self absorbed and walks around with blinders. He ignores my texts, but then he suddenly responds but it’s never about what I said. Lack of focus and ADHD or something …I don’t see him enough in person because of my job to actually sit down and talk to him in person. I have found that is the ONLY way to actually get him to listen. He seems genuine but as someone else said he has some issues because of his upbringing. I just don’t know if I can handle a man like this if he can’t even have a “conversation” with me via text. Is this worth my time?
Nope.
Go NC — that’s “no contact” e.g. “cold turkey” in Baggage Reclaim lingo.
What if he guilts me because I don’t answer his texts ? I mean I do want to see him to ask him what’s going on but at the same time I can never get him to commit to meeting up in a timely manner when the issue is fresh. It’s frustrating .
NC is no joke … it’s so tough when your heart wants one thing ….
Q: What if he guilts me because I don’t answer his texts ?
A: Stay NC. Oh — and turn off your fone. . .helps.
I will do my best … he needs to realize how this cannot be a 1 sided “whatever it is”. It wears me down when he does this. I just want to talk to him . Gah!!!!! Okay NC it is .
Atta grrrl! Outside of being hip to tricks and spotting shenanigans before they even strike, NC is the best you can do. . .for now. . .for ever. . .
I mean, I’m talking I’ve had (married, otherwise not really single) guys text me in the middle of the night, it’s like, really? Do you expect me to fall in, to believe that this type of “attention” is good for me? I started believing the truth, which is, he’d probably just finished washing the OTHER other woman off him. . .and had an unsatiable appetite to be wrong. . .so. . .those past-bedtime texts went UNanswered.
Stop believing his type of “attention” is good for you. . .helps.
Hey Miss- yeah his behavior is so confusing to me! Sometimes he is all about texting or calling and being very present and wanting to be with me. The next he is sooooo distant. At the moment, he won’t answer/reply to any text. It’s frustrating and hurtful. I had to really sit back and say , “would I keep texting any other friend if they disappeared like this and be upset??” The answer was no. Something inside of me has latched into this man and craves his attention and yearns to hear from home like I USED to. I’m figuring all of this out from reading responses here.. great blog btw I love it! But now the question is, will he suddenly show up after he has his hissy fit with a “valid” reason? Probably. That’s my guess but I’m sure everyone else knows the answer. I just don’t want to be going nuts over this , and I sure as heck don’t want him knowing I am going nuts. Have u gone thru this Miss? What u said about the text after he washes off the OW — yeah in my case I know when his GF leaves to fly off because he suddenly has a surge of flirting. It actually gets quite old. Right now I’m just grasping at straws trying to keep a friendship in place but I don’t even know if I can patch this up if he won’t talk!!!
It’s very clear that you’re addicted to the drama. You want to win. You want him reward you for your choice to put up with his crap.
All your responses to misspricilla’s support have been all about him and your need to argue for your right to remain in contact.
Please stop kidding yourself (and others) that you wish this self-inflicted nonsense to end as it would mean you having to focus on your own behaviour and take responsibility.
You cannot control him. You are not responsible for his behaviour.
Take care.
Hi Mary thanks for the reply. I was taken back a bit by your response saying I was addicted to the drama. I thought I just cared for him and was frustrated by his lack of communication? I’m not saying you are wrong at all, but how the heck do I correct this ? I want what’s best for me at this point — I’m NC with him now but he will be possibly rubbing elbows with me because of a work function later today. That will be no place to talk to him of course .
You’re taken aback because you’re hearing the truth and not want you want to hear.
Please read Natalie’s many, many articles on No Contact in order to understand what it truly means. She also has articles/exercises for you to remove your rose-tinted spectacles and blinkers.
You act as if you’re a victim with zero control over your actions.
You’re obsessed with this man and determined to make him behave how you want.
This situation is about YOUR BEHAVIOUR, not his.
Unfortunately you’re in so deep you can’t see the wood for the trees. You believe he’s the problem.
I’ve been in similar situations, deluding myself that if I could just get someone to see that they were the problem then all would be OK.
Nothing will change unless you truly want it to. All this drama is due to your choices.
Also, please stop trashing this man’s GIRLFRIEND. You do not know what is going on in their relationship. The words of a CHEATING LIAR who is LYING and CHEATING to/on his GIRLFRIEND are just as poisonous as the lies you tell yourself in order to justify your choice to participate in this deceitful, destructive selfish mess.
Mary – thank you for being so blunt . What you say is very true … all of it . It’s extremely tough to make my brain realize that I am also at fault for these feelings and actions. I cannot change this man.. I need to walk away from him and work on myself. Thank you Mary.
You’re welcome.
Having to work with him is unfortunate. If doing your job doesn’t require interacting with him, that’s good. If it does, keep discussions professional. Natalie has many articles on having to work with someone you need to go No Contact with.
Good luck.
I’m in a situation where he is in the same building sometimes. Today thru Saturday he could potentionally need to inquire about information we have for his work. I am hoping he will not show up. NC still going on and I will keep reading the amazing words here. Cheers.
LIM,
I’m also in a NC situation with a coworker. The hardest thing about NC is resisting all the little urges to reach out to the ex. Working together can make it worse because you may find it easier to manufacture reasons which you can pretend aren’t related to your feelings for them. Stay strong and don’t make excuses. It will get easier.
I stayed waaayy too long in that relationship because I was looking to get something back (an apology, a chance to tell him off, an acknowledgement that he cared about me, etc). Mary is right. Instead of focusing on him you need to focus on you. Taking responsibility is not the same thing as accepting all the blame.
Focusing on myself instead of him is what finally got me to the point where I can look forward with hope instead of dwelling on the past with anger and regret. When the next relationship comes along, I will be in a much better position to either succeed or walk away because I am more aware of what I need and what makes a good relationship work.
Stephanie – yes I feel I am in the exact same spot as you. This is where my mental push and pull is because I tend to want to wait for my moment to tell him off, or see if he truly does care about me the way I perceive he does. I admit I have given him 2 many chances and I have also hung around 2 long. It has not been good for me at all. When I start to focus on myself and really feel like my self esteem is boosted, he suddenly shows up and I slide back down that slippery slope. It sucks big time. I do feel that I am strong enough and frustrated enough at this point to move forward though, and all of the knowledge from you all is helping me so much ! I don’t feel I am doing this alone at all 🙂 A great looking guy came to my desk today and we talked for about 30 minutes . Talked like we had known eachother for years — never had met him before ever. I was comfortable with him and enjoyed his time. That feeling is lost with the other EU friend. I feel guarded with what I say and how I say it with him. But today’s interesting new meeting gives me hope– there are decent men who are great out there still .:)
LIM,
That’s the attitude! There are great people out there and you don’t need to waste your time on those who are more of a burden than a joy to be around. And don’t worry if the new guy doesn’t come back again. You don’t need to be the center of a guy’s attention to be happy.
It’s really important to keep up NC. Engaging with the ex is a sure way to get you back into the rut of frustration and resentment.
Work on yourself. Keep reading BR. Learn all you can about healthy relationships so you will be prepared when a good one comes along.
Stephanie – thank you.. I have been reading through a lot on BR, and I found a post from you where you shared your entire story which really gave me chills because it mirrored my situation quite a bit. I also felt relieved knowing you and others truly do understand the “addiction” to these men and the hurt they cause. I also see how I have work to do on myself. That has been very tough to admit. Going NC has been difficult , and I find that I check my phone once in awhile to see if he has texted. Like a quick fix. No surprise he hasn’t, but knowing him the way I do, he will suddenly text in the next few days like nothing is wrong. To try and lure me in. I’m sure you know this pattern well. Stephanie did you ever tell the ex EU how he hurt you when you were face to face ?
LIM, I did not tell him how much he hurt me although I really, really wanted to. Hurt and Angry Me still fantasizes about doing so on occasion, but Older and Wiser Me recognizes this desire for what it is: just another way of engaging him.
I kept a journal for the first two months of NC which was much more helpful than talking to him would have been. When writing I could be completely honest without fear, shame or interruption. It is also easier to do your self-work when you are alone since you don’t have to worry about giving up any ground by admitting your mistakes. Check out the “Goodies” here at BR for some examples of writing activities. I may try the Unsent Letter Guide if I am still struggling a few months from now.
Natalie has written so much awesome stuff, but one post that I found particularly helpful is this one: https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/dont-they-care-about-me-didnt-i-mean-something-to-them/
Take care and keep up the NC
LIM, I did not tell him how much he hurt me although I really, really wanted to. Hurt and Angry Me still fantasizes about doing so on occasion, but Older and Wiser Me recognizes this desire for what it is: just another way of engaging him.
I kept a journal for the first two months of NC which was much more helpful than talking to him would have been. When writing I could be completely honest without fear, shame or interruption. It is also easier to do your self-work when you are alone since you don’t have to worry about giving up any ground by admitting your mistakes. Check out the “Goodies” here at BR for some examples of writing activities. I may try the Unsent Letter Guide if I am still struggling a few months from now.
Natalie has written so much awesome stuff, but one post that I found particularly helpful for resolving unmet validation needs is the one called “Don’t They Care About Me. Didn’t I Mean Something To Them.” You can find a link on the right hand side under Most Popular Posts.
Take care and keep up the NC
Great advice Stephanie … and may I ask how long you have been NC with your ex? I have told a close friend about how I am struggling with all of this and she just looks at me like I have two heads. Of course she is married with kids and happy blah blah.. she doesn’t understand why I give him the time of day when he ignores my texts and treats me like a doormat. Well damn if I could understand that myself I would tell her! I will say that your clarity on this makes me feel more sane about how I am dealing with things. I’ll catch myself wanting to text him because I saw something that we both enjoyed, or know he would want a good morning text… it’s all about control and just stopping. I am going to try writing the open letter that I don’t send and see where I am after that. I will also check out the other post you kindly suggested.
Do you ever run into your ex?
LIM, I’ve been NC for four months. I have been fortunate to avoid him as we don’t have any mutual friends. I have gone through periods when I cheat NC and check up on him through his calendar (I do not recommend this as it will set you back).
As for your friend, people with healthy relationship skills can’t relate because they don’t get anything out of a dysfunctional relationship the way some of us do. When they are treated badly, they just leave and don’t look back. When I have been treated badly, I respond by people pleasing, trying to fix things and otherwise ignoring my own feelings and needs. Towards the end I didn’t even like my ex but I still struggled to let go.
BR is great for working on these kinds of issues.
Stephanie – bravo on the 4 months ! I cannot even imagine going that long without contact with him. I’m struggling with a few days since at times I have to rub elbows with him for work. What you said about the people pleasing is true – Florence nightingales right? I’ve always been the type who wanted to smooth things out and make things right. I’ve never liked chaos , even as a kid. He’s a broken man and so I took him under my wing thinking I could fix him but I ended up flying to close to the sun. I find that I do not want to see him or talk to him now after reading so much information and taking my blinders off. I’m really understanding how his mind works and it sucks. My heart and brain have been through the ringer. Stephanie our stories are so close if u ever want to exchange emails to keep in touch (especially if we need to remind ourselves not to text our EU’s!!) let me know. Cheers to u and thank you for the support !!!
I’m just in awe over most of these comments and I honestly can’t feel one bit of sympathy for anyone that makes a conscious choice to be in or continue a relationship with a taken man or woman. You don’t mistakenly have sex with someone and continue a “relationship” with them when they reveal they are taken. People like to say you can’t destroy something that’s already broken but nothing in life is perfect. Marriages and relationships require continuous work. Most of you are sitting here blaming their life trauma’s or childhood experiences on their conscious choice to be with someone that is taken. A lot of people experience those things but don’t cheat or involve themselves with taken people. I have yet to read anyone express remorse for destroying a family, causing pain to their cheaters partner and/or children. Be truthful and say the reason you made this choice is because you are a narcissist, lack integrity, self control and respect in general. The same goes for the cheaters. If you are hopeful your cheater leaves their wife or husband for you, think again. They usually don’t. If they do, they more than likely won’t change for you. If you are an OW/OM right now, get out of the “relationship.” Nothing good will come of it!
*sigh*
I used to think that way. Exactly. Word for word.
Until “it happened to me,” with lying, has-a-girlfriend dude.
Mind you — *married* has a “do not cross” line across it. . .for ME, not a lotlotlot of married men!
HOWEVER! Do consider the perspective that these guys these days are awfully slick. There’s “married” that is “oh, I’m in an open relationship”(lie) there’s “married” that is “separated” (lie) there’s “married” that is “I’m only staying for the sake of our kids” (lie) there’s “married” that is “We live separate lives and don’t have sex”(lie) and on and on — the first things they tell you to hook you in that SEEM plausible.
And. . .don’t even get me started on these various quasi-girlfriend situations, friends crossing the line . . .almost! Not quite! scenarios.
The point of all this is, they absolutely don’t reveal they are taken. Just the opposite — they “reveal” that they are not *TAKEN* taken so that the behavior seems justifiable on both parts.
So, I don’t think, any longer, and from experience that it’s like how you laid it out all judgmentally in black-and-white. I don’t think any of us here say to ourselves, “OMG, I super-fancy being a homewrecker! I deserve his penis more than his wife/girlfriend!”
Like I said earlier, I don’t think any of the people here sorting it out and telling on ourselves consciously, knowingly go looking for cheating. SOME WOMEN out there do and there’s documented people that prefer that situation (Ashley Madison, SugarDaddy.com, I’m lookin’ atcha).
So — the lack of sympathy and finger pointing expressed is pretty close to slut shaming — I don’t think we deserve that. If you’re not that way, good for you, but I think that sentiment is dispiriting of the message of Natalie’s original post.
I didn’t have sex in my situation. The messing didn’t go as far as many of the stories here, and I don’t think I ever would have stood for that over the course of months and years. But that’s only for the fact that I wised up rather quickly that he wasn’t leaving the gal, and, in fact, prolly was in love with her and wasn’t getting out in the 9 month (9! MONTHS!) timetable he “originally stated” as if it were some sort of sick here’s hoping contract for me to sign away my life to.
I wish everyone the best in their situation, without judgment, b/c these stories are not fun and games, they are painful.
Dee
I agree, you beat me to it, I am utterly disgusted that no commenters here have acknowledged the destruction they are inflicting on other people and their families by being the other man/woman or a cheater. I have no sympathy for the pain they are inflicting on themselves.
And for those saying how awful their affair partners origional partner is, based on what their lover is saying… wake up to yourself! Your lover is saying hundreds of lies every day to the person they aren’t leaving, why on earth would you think you are that special that they are not lying to you as well? They are lying to you and you are lying to you. If you were that special to them, they would have left that person before starting something with you, and legitimised your relationship!
Give up, and go contribute something worthwhile to the world rather than selfishly stealing and destroying others happiness.
You’re right-
but it’s no happiness being married to a cheater. That’s a lie too!
Or better: Self- Delusion
(Sorry my English isn’t very good)
Yes you are right, happiness was not the best choice of word…. cheaters steal people’s sense of trust and it is a whole different kind of pain recovering from a “clean” relationship ending to recovering from a relationship that involved cheating.
Amen to the men that don’t cheat, no matter what.
This guy wanted a touchy feely sexual affair because his 69 yr old wife stopped having sex with him 8 yrs ago. Also a word to the wives, what does she expect? Yeah, I know it is no excuse and they need to work on that as a couple. I am just saying that every situation is different and everyone involved needs to take a look at their behavior.
This blog and Natalie’s advice is very healing to those of us that went down the wrong path. I was like you thinking I would NEVER do such a thing! I didn’t even think of it until being 63 yrs old, getting NO attention at home then this charmer touched my arm and told me how great I am, and how lonely he is with his ice cold wife. I am a religious person and NEVER thought I could get snookered into that crap. I didn’t really know myself and how lonely I was. I got sucked in and tried to comfort someone that was hurting. So WRONG, I know. It is finally over, so please don’t just judge and hate on people like me.
Yeah RED flags flew. I had coffee with him and tried to bring him to church. He was a salesman and used his charm and techniques to lure me into an emotional affair. I was stupid, I admit. I am soooo glad I never had sex with him or even kissed him. I hugged him a couple of times and held his hand twice, in two years, and I still feel guilty, so are you happy? I feel guilty? I am sorry as well. I never want to hurt any wife, child, grandchild or husband, ever.
I have learned a lot and I thank God for Natalie’s Blog.
I guarantee there are many many who agree with you.
Unfortunately this post is about people who are with people who aren’t single.
Some see this post as a reason to justify their actions, others, thankfully, see it as a place to express their remorse over their past behaviour(s).
I feel your frustration.
My original comment blowing back to the counter perspective is “awaiting moderation” so I’ll be brief — those that can take the moral highground? Great, so nice to hear that you’re able to be perfectly strong in these types of scenarios.
But, the counterperspective comments haven’t added anything to the dialogue that is open, honest and caring about this type of self-inflicted wounding. It is only finger-pointing and blame-shifting. I could see if you could actually say “I’ve been cheated on and here’s the other side.” That would be fair and relatable. But what has been said to add another perspective to what we have said is not fair and not relatable — it’s putting down other women for being human. Humans are light and dark, good and bad — bravo to Natalie for inviting us to be open to the darkside, the badside — doesn’t happen that often out in the open in a relatively supportive/equal environment.
I don’t like statements that make us here unequal, as if you can do no wrong. Just wait until one of these slicksters sidles himself to you — it’s just a click away!
Me personally? I’m very clear about not getting involved with married men b/c I know about the pain and drama and homewrecking it causes to friends of mine — male and female.
HOWEVER! Knowing this, I still slipped up and got sucked in with someone who misrepresented his status! I opened up in order to share perspectives, there is no way I would go around thinking I’m better than some of the ladies here who have extended affairs with married men. Even though I think I was relatively, comparatively unscathed, it’s the BEHAVIOR(S) that ring true and similar, in various degrees of attachment ranging from “I’m sorta seeing someone else” to “I’m married with a basket of children.”
All KINDS of men, if not most of them, have problems with commitment, going all the way back to dating multiple women at a time! Even if *married* or “settled down, the urge to date multiple women at a time never dissipates, do not be fooled! I think we’ve done a good job here of uncovering the un-obvious problems with these men, including (sexual) abuse (in my case) that no one talks about!
So, I think compassion and understanding that backs up *NATALIES’S TONE* — remember, even SHE has been there, remembers??? Is a better and more welcomed tact.
AMEN — hope this one is “approved”.
@ misspriscilla. Let me respond to your “brief” comment.
People giving counterperspective comments are being open, honest, caring and do add to the dialogue. They’re sympathising with the partner being cheated on.
Disagreeing with someone isn’t “putting down other women for being human.” Nor is it someone thinking they can do no wrong. It’s called having a different opinion.
You don’t get to control how others react or respond. If other people’s comments aren’t relatable to YOU, that’s okay. Different people relate to different things.
Saying most men have problems with commitment isn’t true. I, and many many others, know plenty of kind, committed, loyal and faithful men. That’s been my perspective based on my reality. I understand that you’re basing your perspective on your reality.
I too used to have a negative mindset when it came to men. Turns out it was my choice of accepting bad behaviour that was the problem. So glad I’m not that person any more.
I didn’t get the impression that Natalie’s post was about why these men/women cheat and the need to analyse their childhoods. The points you raised are very valid but, to me, only seem to make the OW/OM have even more sympathy for the cheater and make it even harder to leave.
My understanding is that this post (as are the majority of others) is to help people open their eyes to the self-destructive choices they’re making, take responsibility (not blame) for their actions, look at the emotional state they were in when they made their choice and bring the focus back to themselves for their future happiness.
You don’t speak for Natalie. None of us do. This is her blog and she is more than capable of letting someone know if the tone isn’t to her liking.
“My understanding is that this post (as are the majority of others) is to help people open their eyes to the self-destructive choices they’re making, take responsibility (not blame) for their actions, look at the emotional state they were in when they made their choice and bring the focus back to themselves for their future happiness.”
Very well said, Mary! Another thing Natalie emphasizes is healthy boundaries. It’s impossible to have healthy boundaries when you are involved with someone who is involved with someone else.
It’s a little dicey trying to figure out how much sympathy to give someone who is in a mess that is at least partially of their own making. We all need support from time to time, but too much sympathy can backfire and keep a person stuck because it provides an unintended reward for staying in the unpleasant situation. All sincere perspectives have their place. What works for one person may not work for someone else.
Agree. It’s a very thin line between support and enabling.
A poster may not be interested or ready to hear our comment(s), but hopefully at least one reader will get something out of it.
P.S. — I am not about to wear an electronic scarlet letter “A” for adultery, nor do I think anyone here should.
I think comments shaming people is not cool, that’s neither support nor enabling.
Okay — “most men” are not commitment minded is an overstatement, I should be more accurate by saying “half of men” — as indicated by the fact that half of all marriages end in divorce. While the other half? Are not interested in marriage! 🙂 sorry — maybe that’s more like 25 percent.
I never felt the need to analyze anyone’s childhood — I just simply shared a very bizarre, aberrant thing. . .that *others also noticed*. This isn’t something that’s discussed — the truth is probably something along the lines of be sure to try for commitment with an emotionally healthy man who isn’t likely to heal his wounds by being unfaithful.
Some people know that already. . .great! For those of us that need to learn that. . .I think also great! What’s not great is being shamed for life’s lessons.
How sincere is it to put yourself out there as better than us? I don’t need your sympathy, I don’t need your enabling, I don’t need your shaming.
What I do need? Right — I got from women *who had been there*. If you haven’t been there, good for you, I would not wish that hell on anyone, not even for a minute. My situation didn’t last as long as some, but it still hurt enough to process with others here.
As such, I didn’t find yours and others perspectives “sincere” — just mean. And, unnecessarily so.
No one has said anything about your experience. Stop attacking yourself for your mistake. We all make them.
Briefly — The counterperspectives were not open and honest to me — they were condescending and mean-spirited along the lines of “I can’t believe the nerve of these women!”
I don’t have to speak for Natalie by proxy by noticing that her original post in no way shamed people for being in these types of fallback-girl situations. . .the way the counterperspectives did. I offered a counterperspective *myself* in the course of sharing my experiences. I said, plain and simple, get out of these situations. A lot of women also said along the lines of “you need to get out of this b/c it is wrong”.
BUT! We didn’t point the finger downward from a moral high horse.
There’s ways to disagree with people and their behaviors without putting them down and shaming them — which you and others who took that tact did.
Again — Natalie’s original post definitely disagreed with the behavior right from the title on — but I never got the sense that her tone was negative. Your opinions as expressed and that of the other Negative Nancy’s did. I don’t think these ladies taking the impetus to sort things out from themselves, grow and learn deserve that. We’re discussing shameful acts that can’t really be said outloud to other people.. .who we already know would tell us the things such as you.
So, if not sympathy, non-judgment of even our own made messes is appreciated. This isn’t about control — it’s about pushing back against mean-girling people who are hurt and hurting.
Thanks.
I get it. It’s clear you don’t see other people’s opinions as valid if they don’t match yours.
Calling people who choose not to enable destructive behaviour as Negative Nancy’s is sad.
You’re trying to shame me for being honest.
There’s a theme to your posts, trying to convince others that your perspective is right and everyone else’s is wrong.
There’s a theme to my posts too, being honest, something I will never ever be ashamed of. I don’t need anyone’s validation.
You’re trying to play the victim and make this post all about you.
Life’s too short to waste on a drama queen.
All the best.
I get it. It’s clear you don’t see other people’s opinions as valid if they don’t match yours.
== Respectfully as can be inferred online, I think you don’t really get it. I’m not arguing the validity of opinions, I’m calling out judgmental, petty, finger pointing comments for what they are. Comments along the lines of, “I am disgusted. . .” etc. : really now? That’s not an opinion, it’s a judgmental reaction that puts people down. It’s a right to have an opinion, but to approve/disapprove on such an intense level is not a tone I can get behind and hear the point of what people are saying on the other side. I AM open to communication, but not scolding. I don’t remember ANY of the comments like that stating directly “I have been cheated on. . .here’s the other side” or anything similarly helpful (I have friends, my parents, here’s what I observed from that situation, ANYTHING AT ALL). I don’t think that’s right. Sitting on the sidelines, gloating, being better than someone — not reasonable, I think.
Calling people who choose not to enable destructive behaviour as Negative Nancy’s is sad.
== not really. . .how about Judgmental Judy’s? Yes, that’s more accurate.
You’re trying to shame me for being honest.
== again, not really. I’m pointing out the mean girl in you and others — that clique I didn’t join IRL in high school and have zero interest in it online, either. I focused on *my own feelings* and didn’t? Right, say that other opinions were disgusting.
There’s a theme to your posts, trying to convince others that your perspective is right and everyone else’s is wrong.
== nope. I stated that mean girling is wrong, and indicated I thought cheating is wrong. There’s a difference in tone from someone who has been there, been duped LEARNING what is wrong rather than the morally-perfect types expecting a solid coformity to what they have collectively decided from the mean girls clique is right. It’s the mean girling that made this issue right v. wrong as an absolute, rather than what we all learned. I think maybe if ANYONE had shared experience from what they learned about cheating from being in a healthy relationship — or SOMETHING! ANYTHING! would have been better than pointing the finger at we women who have done or are doing this.
There’s a theme to my posts too, being honest, something I will never ever be ashamed of. I don’t need anyone’s validation.
==validation, maybe not. Correction? Kissing off? Pushing back? Perhaps.
You’re trying to play the victim and make this post all about you.
== not really. But I am for empowerment and making it all about the maudlin sisterhood of *our actual, lived, experience* of being in an illicit “relationship” for whatever amount of time and circumstance. I personally don’t have to give a hoot about what I got myself into b/c comparatively, it “wasn’t so bad.” But I think to ignore the usefulness of sharing and getting insight on what happens in the situations and why misses the intent and spirit of opening up a dialogue. Learning, YES! Shaming. . .pffft, NO! who cares about the “disgust,” for real. I’m not a victim at all, I. . .had. . .fun with my “taken” man. 🙂
Life’s too short to waste on a drama queen.
== agreed. Ciao ciao for now!
All the best
== you too. 🙂
Who the hell are you to be calling me out for my comments to others? Telling me I need to be corrected? You need to read one of Natalie’s most recent posts entitled “Whose Moral Compass Are You?: The Conscience Wingman.”
You’re only open to communication if it’s on your terms. Anyone who doesn’t agree with you either shaming, scolding or part of a clique.
Me? A mean girl? Hilarious. You’re projecting. The person who’s post I commented on thanked me. They didn’t have to. They could have said nothing or responded negatively. My post to them wasn’t to or about you.
After being bullied for most of my life by family, school and work, I will not tolerate it from the likes of you. You don’t know me or the things I’ve been through. I don’t have to disclose my experiences to you in order to get your approval to be deemed worthy enough to post.
You’re a coward for not addressing other posters individually and seeking to make me the scapegoat for all the comments you dislike.
You’re a nasty piece of work. You can’t see past your own judgemental superiority. And you’re a hypocrite, bragging about the fun you had with your “taken” man.
Who the hell are you to be calling me out for my comments to others?
== someone who’s “been there, done that” relative to the topic. Being bullied and the bit about the moral compass are not the topics i’m addressing–and don’t have to, really — but thank you for mentioning them, though for me they are diversions.
“You” is the royal you, not personal. It is your choice to make it personal to you and to feel bullied. Talk about projection, I’m not your bully. It’s you who is choosing victimhood, this time. I didn’t address your *personal* worth and approval, you did. I stated that the choice to put people down for cheating didn’t feel right to me.
Telling me I need to be corrected?
== *sigh* Yep.Perhaps “more open minded, less judgmental” would be less explosive? I don’t know. The wording is clumsy, the sentiments less so.
I think what has been good about most of the dialogue surrounding cheating and cheaters that Natalie opened is to get beyond the usual trite moral narrative and look deeper. Yes, I think looking at childhoods is necessary work, yes I think taking responsiblity is necessary work, yes I think not enabling is necessary work. But the moral highground thing that trivializes all of that work? Doesn’t work for most people anymore.
We don’t live in a time when the sacred sacrement of marriage and as an institution is just that. Both the sacredness and longevity of marriage has eroded in today’s times — and that is for reasons that go beyond cheating. I don’t think the royal “we” can fingerpoint at say, being a workaholic — which also erodes comittment to marriage, these days. Therefore, similarly, fingerpointing at *only one aspect* of faulty comittments, such as cheating,for discussion is not productive. Being “disgusted” by infidelity puts us back in times when marriage was a rock and mothers typically were not single — that’s not where we are now.
Talking about abused men who can’t commit, and all the other stuff that got brought up by my BR sisters? Refreshing. Modern. *THAT’S the nasty piece of work, not me.*
The only reason I continued this dialogue with you (personal and royal) and answering back with what I feel is I can see it as a necessary part of the process of moving past a situation that cast a long shadow over my life. I’ve really given this tete-a-tete some thought, it’s helped me to move past what happened in the past. It’s kind of weird and hard to explain — but it’s kind of like here I saw all sides of the issue in a way I wouldn’t/couldn’t with friends, family, therapist — all of which would in some way take sides, moral or enabling or otherwise due to the personal (or paid-personal) relationship.
I personally was only able to see the truth when I began to love the cheating person, that’s despite his flaws, some more obvious than others. When I could see I wouldn’t be loved back at any time THAT’S when I noticed all his other issues. That’s why pushing back against these what I feel “mean girling” sentiments was so important to me.
Far from being a coward, I’ve bravely taken a stand as best I could. I’m open to communication that doesn’t start from the need to put down cheating from the jump off of trigger point morality — it *sounds like* that’s where you’re coming from judging from the reactive nature of these last few responses.
I don’t think it’s “hilarious” to call you personally (again, included in the royal you, mean girl clique) a mean girl. But the ground upon which you stand, the moral high horse one where those that can’t behave according to strong morals are “disgusting” to me is indefensible.
So, I don’t think it’s hypocritical to acknowledge that cheating is fun. . .for a time. Otherwise why do it? The dinners out, the sex, the attention–it’s fun. But there’s a looming darkside to the fun and games that we who lived it exposed. I personally think it’s hypocritical to morally put down one set of behaviors while consequently ignoring the roots of it. That’s what the rigidity of moral fingerpointing does.
As such, because we can never speak to each other as equals, I’m tapping out of this back-and-forth. I’m repeating myself and defending myself — both of which waste my time and energy and are ceasing to move me forward as it drags out.
I accept that we’ll never see eye-to-eye on this particular topic I regret that — but only somewhat, given that cheating hasn’t been a part of your life (again, the royal you which includes the counterviewpoint).
So, I’m moving on from responding to you. Thanks for the process.
All the best to “you” (royal you — maybe y’all is better).
🙂
Miss P.,
I was not judging or shaming anyone. I was agreeing with the point about taking responsibility (NOT BLAME) and understanding how our experiences and beliefs can cause us to make bad relationship choices. I do understand how it may have been interpreted as shaming due to an earlier comment in the thread and I acknowledge that I should have been more judicious about which thread I jumped into.
Everyone who is hurting deserves sympathy and compassion. I was not meaning to imply otherwise. However, I stand by my position that too much sympathy can be counterproductive.
I did not care for the tone of a couple of posts. One in particular made me very angry but I realize that these women may be hurting too. (I also believe in choosing my battles.)
I just found out that my long distance boyfriend is married. I dumped him immediately but wow he really was good to me (literally took care of any problem I had of any kind) and I miss him.
Reading these women’s stories makes me think they’re bad guys and it’s best I move on. Your comment, however, makes me think, “On the other hand, some of them MAY have a bossy, judgmental bitch of a wife, so f’ it!”
I know an OW who did marry the man she had the affair with. They were both married to other people, the two men were corporate bigwigs at the same company, and the families hung out together…until one day everything fell apart. And the OW and her affair partner both divorced their spouses and married each other. The OW has 3 children from her first marriage. The guy has children from his first marriage too, I don’t know how many.
The OW is now divorced from the man she had an affair with. While they were married, they did a lot of corporate traveling together, lived in several countries. He left for Florida one day, saying he was looking for a house for the two of them to move to, and he never came back for her. He had moved there to be with another woman.
I’ve heard that he has since married twice again.
Who knows what that man is looking for. It’s the same with all cheaters. They re looking for some type of fulfillment that can’t be found in another person. But they keep thinking the answer is the next person that catches their fancy. And those of us who need a validation boost are ripe for the challenge of winning some charmers affection.
When venom is spewed toward the OW/OM, it is rooted in fear. You want to be assured your spouse/partner will never be able to cheat because even if he/she wants to cheat, he/she will never have any takers because good moral people will always make the good moral decision. But good moral people DO cheat.
It’s the WHY behind the cheating that is the sticky wicket.
“Good moral people do cheat”???
So by this logic, good moral people LIE and STEAL (other peoples partners)
What morals are you talking about?
I am not saying that all people who cheat are good and moral. There are “pleasure junkies” who selfishly play with people’s emotions. I am saying that good and moral people sometimes do the wrong thing. And in my mind, doing the wrong thing is not an automatic loss of your “moral” card. It depends on the situation and the deed.
I am philosophical by nature and inclined to look at the “why” behind behaviors. And I know that I am most compatible with those who also tend to internally ask “why” questions.
You don’t know what is going on in someone’s home.
Staying together “for the children” is a socially acceptable lie, I think. In my view, the worst thing a couple who has lost interest in each other can do is “stay together for the children”…assuming of course that a separation does not mean financial ruin for either of them. My parents “stayed together for the children”, and divorced two seconds after I (the youngest) moved out. Observing them now, living separately, seeing their good points and bad, they should have struck out separately long ago. They may have had a chance to develop themselves into more fully happy human beings, instead of suffering the daily soul-sucking-pain of living with someone without benefit of nurturing love and care.
I shake my head at the people who used to say what a great couple my Mom and Dad were. They were good parents…not nurturing…but responsible, provided food/clothing/shelter, fulfilled some needs and some wants, provided discipline and rules of behavior. I think they decided that we children were the job they had cut out for themselves and that is what they were going to complete together – raising the children. I saw no happy interaction between them, don’t remember them laughing with each other, do remember lots of behind closed doors fighting and a couple of Dad storming out moments and Dad-drunk moments.
So I look at that, and I cannot judge either of them as morally bankrupt if, at some point, they reached for a moment of happiness with some other person.
“You don’t know what is going on in someone’s home…”
“I saw no happy interaction between them, don’t remember them laughing with each other, do remember lots of behind closed doors fighting…
So I look at that, and I cannot judge either of them as morally bankrupt if, at some point, they reached for a moment of happiness with some other person.”
Elgie R,
Yes, in my situation I do know much of what is going on in his home. The second segment of your post that I quoted describes it with empathy and clarity. For him I have a great deal of empathy; less for her but I try to nurture it anyway.
For what really amounted to a brief period of time he and I considered a future together. To be honest, he rejected it before I did. As time has passed I have come to realize the futility of it.
My part in his life does not threaten what goes on in their home. In fact, I think that having me in his life actually helps him remain home.
Thank you for your generous and inclusive perspective.
Hi, MillionReasons. I think it is hard to know what is going on in someone’s home unless you live there…so I am hoping that what you “know” is from your own observations over time (were you live-in help or something) and isn’t because of things he tells you….you can’t go by things that are told to you.
Years ago, I too, preened when ACMM once said to me that “I improved his marriage.” Now, I view my reaction as a marker of how pitifully I treated myself.
Even though I was raised to be happy with secondary, thanks to BR, I realize now that I have the right to be “primary” in MY eyes. So now, when it comes to life decisions, I am no longer proud to be secondary. It’s an internal shift. I have to battle my people-pleasing reflexes, and not second guess putting myself first.
Yes, Elgie R., certainly some of what I know about what goes on in his home is based on discussions he and I have had. Other parts are seeing him and his wife interact. He and I know each other through work; although we are not colleagues and I in no way work for him, we are in regular if not frequent contact. So, I have seen them interact in work related situations, such as social events, times when she has been to the offices, that type of thing.
We have a mutual friend and it is in that friend his wife confided her own affair. The same mutual friend corroborates 99% of what I have learned and observed.
My conclusions about how my role in his life helps him remain at home are mine; in fact I have never shared this with him. He and I were friends first and while the physical aspects of what is between us waxes and wanes the friendship is paramount.
It fits along with my spiritual orientation that I wish them both wellness, happiness, peace and love. It is more challenging for me to have these intentions for her but I try. This is also not to say that what has happened between us has not been without emotional harm to me. With men, as well as women I believe we are attracted until we are not, interested until we are not. He has rejected me and lost interest and attraction more often than I have.
I’ll throw it back to an old Annie Lenox song “17” and the line “who could not be together and who could not be apart”.
MillionReasons,
Since the relationship has “not been without emotional harm” to you, the friendship is clearly not paramount to him.
As for your mutual “friend,” she violated the wife’s confidence by sharing those things with you. She sounds like a manipulative, lowlife gossip. When talking to the wife she is probably ratting on you as well. I wouldn’t believe anything this person says.
I agree. The Why is very important. One of my best friends cheated early on in his relationship with his wife of 25 years. They are one of the happiest couples I know and could not have overcome this breach of trust without the man taking responsibility for his actions. This wonderful man and his amazing wife were able to pull through because he was open to accepting responsibility for his actions and she was open to forgiveness. This could not have happened if all the blame had been heaped on the other woman.
Just come back to this comment section and noticed a bit of a ‘disagreement’ to put it mildly between two posters at the end, who were basically speaking at cross purposes, it seems to me.
Being with an unavailable (married/taken) man is never wise and will always cause pain to the OW and wife. Usually the cheating man doesn’t give a stuff, I’m talking of the habitual cheater who is most likely to do the long-term affair thing without any qualms
As others have noticed, if a man is unhappy – really – in his relationship he will leave it quickly after starting the affair, as I remember reading once a man of any integrity would not be able to lie like this for a day, let alone months or years.
Ok. But women do get sacked into these situations for a range of reasons that yes, reflect their own issues. And we here need to offer help to women in this position to help them get out.
My partner, like a husband, walked out on me and our 18 month old son after 10 years in a foreign country, leaving the city within a week. He had started a relationship in our home country, but did not tell me this. They are still together and happy, and not immoral/bad people. Even I’d they fcked up my life and caused me severe emotional/psychological harm.
Three years after my son’s dad left I was in deep with a married man – husband/kids in another country – a man with no scruples, who was a habitual cheater and abusive in many ways. For the first year I was in fantasy land, dreaming of marrying this already man, for the next three years I was desperate to escape, but suffering major trauma on a daily basis.
Now I’m aware thar this presenting me as a victim, but I was seriously unwell and felt trapped. I’ve written this to show how/why women can end up in this position, even after I lived through the married wife role. One therapist said that after extreme trauma, the responses include reliving it, or trying to remedy it – I was doing both.
So don’t be too hard on the OWs writing here; to choose to be second best always reflects some problem they have, or naivete. We need to help them stay far away, or help them get out.
Hi Magpie.
Not sure if the part of your post about being too hard on OW is directed at me.
If so, I haven’t attacked OW and don’t wish to be made the scapegoat for those who have left nasty comments.
If not, then please ignore that portion of my comment.
As you rightly put it, we need to help others stay far away and help them get out. That’s what I did.
I’m sorry for your situation. Being in fantasy land was no fun for me either. You sound like you’re on the right track and I wish you well on your journey.
Of course it’s you, Mary, that has been too hard on OW.
However! You rightly should not be taking on a scapegoat role. Your comments directly attacking OW were allowed to go on and on like “You’re beyond pathetic,” the bizarre parting shot to Prissilla, was allowed without editing by the “moderator” of the site.
I nakedly stated the same thing to you to make a point — and that got edited out, it wasn’t allowed.
You didn’t help others — you attacked them — but it’s not all your fault b/c you should not have been allowed to let it go as far as it did for others to notice.
It’s *all* pathetic — not only you, but the *enabling* of your statements.
However! The tone you took with Magpie is more balanced, so except for the outrageous statements made to people which you neither acknowledge nor apologize for — hope you understand what a few people were trying to tell you by taking your statements more nicely than you really deserved.
Like you kind of said, good luck on your journey—though it’s far different from that of OWs.
???? Am confused. I addressed one poster directly, then had an exchange with misspricilla. Again my comments are the only one being singled out.
I said my comments may have helped others. If they haven’t, so what.
Different people are going to see different comments in different ways.
You don’t know my story to be telling me that my journey isn’t the same as an OW.
Good luck on your journey
???? Am confused. I addressed one poster directly, then had an exchange with misspricilla. Again my comments are the only one being singled out.
I said my comments may have helped others. If they haven’t helped, what fine.
Different people are going to see different comments in different ways.
You don’t know my story to be telling me that my journey isn’t the same as an OW.
You don’t know my story to be telling me that my journey isn’t the same as an OW. — Don’t have to, b/c all you do is defend yourself and attack others. That tells your story right there.
If you’re an other woman. . .just SAY so! if you’ve been cheated on, just SAY so! Your opinions are really hard to parse without context — you seem to be just stating things randomly just to have something to say — sorta like gossiping. That’s not helpful in the slightest.
That reminds me of women I know in my life where I admire their struggle to really know what’s what for themselves, but I can’t condone how that plays out in how they treat other women.
Everybody knows that women as a group are catty and men as a group tend to bro up. Even with the cheating issue, there’s a double standard: men is kind of like “boys will be boys” but women bear the brunt of responsibility for it long term. Ever see a *men’s forum* for discussing why they cheat? Didn’t think so — they sincerely don’t give it (or the lady they cheated with) a second thought. I think it was nice how people for the most part were reasonable — but reading your comments? Made me sick.
Confused? Here’s the clarity — if you were an OW, I think that there would have been more sympatico with Priscilla. That person bent over backward to let you know where she was coming from. An OW would have sensed the pain of that and how difficult it was to engage you. But you? Said she was pathetic. You went out of your way to make sure that person felt pain — for no reason that anyone could see.
Is that even OK by the guidelines of the site? *Someone* who moderates it obviously either 1)doesn’t care or 2) felt for whatever reason that MP deserved you.
Either way, so wrong. That’s an affront to a lot of women in her situation. I took the whole exchange when I read it to be that all OWs are pathetic for doing that, not just that person in particular.
Just as I said, you know Magpie meant you. How you could not own up to that until I said something, that’s confusing. Even that person is trying to be nice — but you make no effort to see what you actually did, you brush it off. She gave you every opportunity to own up to yourself — but aside from being somewhat nice to her, you didn’t take the opportunity for what it was.
You have shown up better this time, but not by much, IMHO.
My guess is you will reply to what I’m saying not with anything remotely thoughtful but with 1) something nasty or 2) something nasty PLUS defending yourself.
Don’t bother : I’m out.
Enough. Let’s just get something clear: the “pathetic” comment was not “allowed”–comments are automatically published unless they include a link or the poster has been previously flagged as posting something inappropriate, which is rare.
You have not been singled out.
Had I seen the comment–I saw the second comment about “pathetic” and that was deleted, not realising that there was a first–it would have been removed.
I apologise that that comment wasn’t picked up.
And to be clear: I am replying to your comment because it’s the most recent on this ‘discussion’ but I am addressing it to all who are participating in this.
I do not need to explain why these comments are way beyond my own boundaries and that of posters. This is not a forum. I can not state this enough.
I have boundaries and this site has a spirit of self-moderation where more than a year ago, I felt that there was no need to moderate everything and in essence, babysit everyone. That works 99% of the time. I go away for a few days and it’s descended into this.
There has been fair, reasonable and compassionate commenting taking place on this post that is in the spirit of the site. It is a shame that a number of you have chosen to go down this path.
What you all (those who are involved in this fracas) need to consider is that the choice to attack each other, to insert yourselves into each other’s situations etc., is a distraction from the real issue:
How do you have the front to be so hard on each other and to suddenly feel so adept at calling a spade a spade, and yet you wouldn’t tell the guy who is using you to advance his own self-interest and to have the best of both worlds, to jog on?
This is a misappropriation of your energies.
Also, if you are in doubt about the guidelines for commenting, please familiarise yourself before you comment again.
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/faqs-comments/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/about/site-use/
Any further comments that do not respect the boundaries, will lead to automatic moderation for those involved.
Even though I was never in this situation myself, I felt the need to comment on this thread because I am the daughter of the OW.
My dad was married to another woman, my mother was the OW. My mom knew the wife and was even a Godmother to their first daughter. He never wanted my mom to have me, but it happened. Their second daughter (his third) was born a couple of years after me.
I also have very little sympathy for women who are the other woman. And no sympathy for the man. (ok, I used man/woman, but vice-versa, if situations are reversed, or woman-woman, man-man in homoaffective relationships).
I don’t want to go in detail to what I have been through, but one thing that strikes me as odd is how lots of folks don’t recognize how their actions affect not only themselves but also A LOT of other people involved. A lot of the comments here sound so self-centered. Why isn’t the wife’s feelings important, why aren’t the children important, etc? I just don’t get it.
As someone directly affected by this situation, I can say it did impact my ability to be a fully functional adult, and it really effs me up that it seems like it’s not as important.
Gabriela,
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I can only imagine how difficult it has been for you. I hope sharing your story will give a perspective that many readers do not consider and impact them to view the situation differently.
This topic has been difficult for me to read as it forced me to see the “humanness” of the O/W. I do not condone the behavior nor excuse it, but it made me realize the baggage behind why someone chooses to be the O/W. When I had a discussion with a friend of mine who had engaged in a year long affair, she said, “It just happened.” My response was, “I was married to an abusive, narcissist for 7 years and I didn’t cheat.” I am still friends with her and I didn’t judge her. But I don’t buy into, “it just happens.” There are conscious decisions made along the way. But I am sure there are unconscious reasons playing into those decisions.
I think we can all agree that nothing good comes out of affairs, whether it is emotional or sexual. So many lives are affected and the fallout can have years to life long consequences (like Gabriela’s story). Unhealthy relationship behaviors become normalized for children and the cycle continues.
Gabriella,
When you were in the abusive relationship with one man, did another kind, charming, suave, man pay attention to you and offer you friendship and comfort? Do you know what you would have done at that time?
Most of said we,would have never done what we did; get tangled up in an affair be it emotional, physical or both, but then we did. Some of us were vunerable and oportunity came banging on our door in the sound of sweet lies and fantacy dreams. It slithered into our heart, and we let it in.
Gabriella, just like everyone has the ability to commit murder in the right circumstances, everyone has the ability to have an affair in the right circumstances. When those circumstances happen, no, the OW/M is not thinking about the kids or the wider impact, just like someone who commits murder isn’t thinking of the family of their victim. It is a desperate response to desperate pain. I’m glad that it hasn’t happened to you, but if it does, I hope you will show yourself some compassion.
“It is a desperate response to desperate pain. ”
Yes. It is. And this site is a way to process the pain, grieve loss and become whole in a safe, supportive and truth based place.
I have always lived my life conscious of the impact of my actions on other people. So many people in relationships don’t and have never heard of dating with dignity. If it isn’t working you get out sort your sh1t out and then are in a stronger position for the next person you meet who hopefully has the core values and boundaries you have to treat you with dignity, integrity and respect. So many women get effed up by people who don’t consider their actions once they move on or the trail of destruction they leave behind them because of the manner in which they moved on.
I was in the OW position off and on with the same man for about 3 years. We didn’t sleep together but we flirted like teens – – we found it to be a release from our day to day cookie cutter worlds. We actually decided to slow things down because we were concerned about our friendship. He values it as much as I do. Both of us have had some events that took place where we needed eachkthers support, and we stood by eachother. Sometimes he says that if things were different, he could see us together, but deep down I am not so sure. He will disappear for a week or two, reappear and we talk and pick up where we left off. It’s all very casual. If we had continued with the hot and heavy part, I doubt we would still be as close as we are. Having a male best friend is extremely tough because in my experience lines always get blurred when you are so close . Dynamics change when that happens. When I stepped back and looked at him as just his friend while we acted like “buds”, I saw how he could easily be that EU, AC and frustrated guy that isn’t happy with his GF. Always complaining over her while drinking a beer with me at the bar. I would listen and give advice to try and help him, but after awhile he didn’t see me, he saw the girl best friend that looked like a great fall back and was easily accessible whenever he wasn’t happy. That long comforting hug and kiss to patch up his heart and send him on his way. To me that just wasn’t fair, and I felt robbed in regards to the friendship. I didn’t know if he really wanted to be friends or was just hanging in until he could find that moment when we would sleep together. So, I backed off and he has as well. Normal things we would do such as watching football games (GF doesn’t like sports), we don’t do now. I will answer his calls and texts but I don’t hang around waiting. To any woman who is the OW, it will take a toll on you mentally because of your heart. You know u shouldn’t but it’s not always easy, especially if you have known the person for so long. Regards.
In the context of this post, it really doesn’t matter so much what anyone’s opinion is of the other woman or the other man or the taken people who cheat. It doesn’t matter if some think they don’t deserve sympathy or some think they do…the point is: it’s happening ALL THE TIME, it’s an epidemic–Read Natalie’s first sentence: every single day she’s getting letters from people who are having affairs!! Clearly an issue that should be high lighted and warrants a big fat discussion and if the only perspective we could have (and while I empathize) is that these people need to own up to being wrong and apologize for how they’ve hurt other people then how would we get to the bottom of underlying reasons causing ALL of these people to cheat in the first place?
Maybe we could all easily assume that most people who have affairs have issues, are causing huge amounts of destruction all around, and generally don’t take care of themselves in a healthy manner and, as hard as it is to stomach for some, we could try listening as they try to suss out why they’re doing it? Maybe help try to identify root causes and share so other people reading may be able to learn something about themselves that would prevent them from entering into an affair in the future. From Nat’s first sentence: they all want to know: How (and why) the hell did I get myself into this mess?
And ultimately, and most importantly, how do I (*choose to*) get out?
B/C, it ends. No matter which-a-way, affairs *always* end.
And usually? (C’mon, say it with me now:. . .)
He stays with his original partner — statistics bear out that it’s usually THE WIFE who initiates divorces. Those men that leave PERIOD — let alone to “be with” an OW — are in the minority and go quickly — not stay in an ongoing, dragged out, can’t decide, having cake-and-eat-it-too type of situation.
If we look at what the purpose of any relationship is, so that’s the good and the not-so-good ones and everything in between, it’s to help us to heal, grow and learn. = too true but probably better soon than letter, b/c if it goes on and on the lesson isn’t being learnt or hasn’t been learnt yet.
It’s a hot topic and I will say that one of my good friends has someone on the side and he claims it’s because his Girl is cheating on him. I asked him why he would do that, and he said it’s because he’s not happy and doesn’t trust her. He said he won’t leave her until he actually has evidence of her cheating. (He has long suspected and has little bits and pieces of proof). At any rate, he feels it’s “an eye for an eye” when he cheats on her. Sadly I have seen him go through this for a few years now, and because he dislikes any sort of change in his life, he just keeps dealing with it. I don’t think he has confronted her. In the end, I am betting they will both be hurt and no one will have gained a damn thing. If only they would have talked and tried to listen to eachother .
Natalie is it an affair if he was seperated? He has been seperated for 5 1/2 years! He was in a 3 year relationship prior to me. He broke up with me stating many reasons…travel too far all of a sudden; I started smoking when I lost my job (I quit prior to break); needs his freedom; 2 weeks after my job loss it was he didn’t know what he wanted; didn’t know if he wanted long term relationship. I’m so upset & depressed. I dated when I was seperated. I even asked him if over ex GF & proceding with divorce. Now he says he was always holding back & never wanted a relationship from the start. He doesn’t feel the way I do & never meant to hurt me! My thoughts just keep spinning
It’s not an affair, but he was emotionally unavailable. I’m so sorry that you’re hurting.
Yes, it takes its toll. Especially when it has been a long time and promises were made and broken. Like Lady Gaga sings “every heartbreak makes it harder to keep the faith”. But it isn’t all heartbreak either.
When it comes to children, IMO no good can come from them being in an environment where what is modeled by both parents is anger, frustration, arguing or mutual radio silence virtually all the time.
For me, I continue to believe that my presence in his life contributes to his ability to remain home and support his children. I am his friend and source of emotional support.
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. You can burn me at the stake now…
I’m not going to burn you at the stake lovely – I told myself that same story, after all – but ask yourself, why your life must be sacrificed for the sake of children that aren’t even yours?
This is not noble suffering, it’s self-neglect. Please stop hurting yourself soon
I was a cheated on partner who never knew until that is he ended up in an A&E dept after an od of sleeping pills. He got away with because he worked away 5 days of the week and played away as well. He admitted one affair in front of a mental health crisis team and the rest came out the day after only because I pushed him. He never showed any remorse for making the last 2.5 years of the marriage a charade. I crawled out of the equivalent of a motorway pile up and to this date haven’t had another relationship and have even stopped dating. Not because of any longing to be with such a sh1t, I simply have my boundaries and can’t be bothered as so many men I’ve met are deficient in many ways. I had health issues in the marriage which obviously he couldn’t cope with and he took the route out he knew I wouldn’t tolerate. I had to put up with being demonised by him to justify his affairs and was on the receiving end of a lot of emotional abuse as he used the depression that developed to hide his affair behaviour. That scar is the hardest to heal.
Now I have bigger health issues so when I am ill and vulnerable I don’t want to be seen as prey for a dysfunctional relationship having been there with marriage. What I can say is that being cheated on takes away all your self esteem especially when you have the double whammy of a younger woman and older woman. I’ve worked very hard to get back to me and now have my boundaries so if a man can’t respect that then tough. I’ve come to realise that there are worse things then being on your own.
A friend put this to me. If someone is meant to be in your life it will happen. If it doesn’t work out this is the universe teaching us a lesson we are meant to learn.
I “dated” someone for two years who had a long term girlfriend tucked away in another city.
Sometimes he talked to her and texted with her, claiming that the only reason he still did that because he felt sorry for her. She just could not let go. Referred to her as his ex.
This person lied about nearly everything for two years and exhibited sociopathic behavior.
After he discarded me I started digging and found out about his gf. I contacted her to compare stories, but she lashed out on me and blamed me for stealing her man. Maybe she was not ready to hear about it.
I now know there were other women too. He traveled a lot.
I have spent the next 2 years single; in therapy, looking at my own behavior and my compulsive need to be with someone who was a liar and a sociopath. It’s been hard. But I know now that I will not engage with anyone like this anymore because I have learned how to read the signs and have a little more compassion for myself. To stop punishing myself by being with an man like that.
We’ve all been there so don’t be too hard on yourself. The main things is to learn and trust your gut instincts. You have a long and bumpy road ahead but you will do it. I escaped from a marriage that was the equivalent of a motorway pile up from an evil man who was a narcissistic misogynist. If I can do it so can you. Trust your gut instincts as I did (see below) and you can avoid similar situations in the future. I operate 2 strikes and out now. The first one is the benefit of the doubt and a repeat offence is strike out. Haven’t had a relationship since but operated this when dating which I have now given up on thanks to Nat’s site.
I’m back here to relate a lucky escape I had. Whether I was being lined up as the other woman or fallback if things didn’t work out I don’t know and have no wish to. I worked a lot out about this man thanks to this site and what Nat says. I met him professionally and we hit it off. He was funny, polite, interested in me, said some things that got me wondering but never followed through. I suspected there night be someone in the background but he always talked in the singular I when describing anything he did. Over months I got to know him better and always thought mountains and men i.e. if they can’t get round or over one for the women they want, then they go through it. Nothing, which puzzled me yet still the flirting and interest continued coupled with charm and humour. It crossed my mind that he was on an ego trip but then suddenly things changed. I was always polite in return, never enquired about personal things in his life but began to challenge things he said to me to clarify. I think that holding back just piqued his interest more and the hunter instinct as he deosn’t give up. If you tried to match 2 people you couldn’t do better we have so much in common.
When I least expected it he made a declaration that told me he had a soft spot for me. He then opened up about personal things and in so doing told me what sort of man he is and believe me there were red flags. Then when talking about holidays it came out that he had a partner! WTF. All this time and he was lying by omission which explained the lack of follow through. I also busted him as married to his work and had him down as a lost man child which he as much confirmed though I didn’t let on about the latter. He also told me he didn’t know what he wanted in life and even a serious health problem wasn’t enough for him to take it easier at work. His past included serious failed relationships which by his own admission had left him scarred.
So from that I realised that a) he was selfish in that work was everything to the exclusion of his health and family life b) emotionally immature c) effed up by failures in the past with relationships d) a lost man child e) not honest about his circumstances f) a charming flirt/playa and g) coming on to me when he’s with another woman. All of these I recognised as red flags and there was no justification which in the past I might have done as in a) works because he hasn’t met the right woman, b & d) he could grow up and I’ll be able to fix/rescue him c) needs the right woman to get over things e) didn’t tell a deliberate lie f) I’m flattered g) maybe he’s unhappy and the relationship is on the rocks and I’m the one.
Err no. I don’t want to be the next woman he overlaps with and if he is doing all of the above with me then who else is in the frame as well as he keeps his options open. I’m not the 6th emergency rescue service behind the police, ambulance, fire, RAC and AA road assistance. I am me and deserve honesty, integrity and being treated well, not bullsh1t. I do believe is a decent man deep down but he is a total car crash and not what I want need in my life. He can’t be avoided totally but now I can reference his partner and that should give him the message. Even men in high powered jobs can be ass clowns. It is true what Nat says men tell you about themselves you just have to watch and listen to spot the clues/signs which I did. This meant I wasn’t blinded by his attention and presence or his high powered job. In the end he gave it away without me having to give him much information about me, in other words he was putting himself on the platter being emotionally vulnerable to sell himself but my appetite meant I didn’t want to eat the dish on offer ‘cos my palate is more refined now than in the past.
Hi Feisty! Your story sent chills down my spine because I met my EU AC and he was exactly the same. He was new to this area, found me via a friend, and we hit it off. I thought I had won the lottery – why wasn’t he taken? Handsome, funny, excellent job that he thrived at. One morning he suddenly stopped over and said he had to explain why he would vanish for a couple of days at a time . He didn’t want to hurt me, but he had a girlfriend. What!!! I was hurt because I didn’t want to be an ego stroke and fallback girl. It turns out she lived 3 hours away, and he “wasn’t happy” but put up with her. I backed off quick. He got hurt and couldn’t work for awhile and I got text after text because he was bored and needed help, but didn’t want to ask directly. So, I gave in and helped him out like any friend would. We stayed close for 5 years, and then one night he got drunk and he admitted a bunch of things. Booze is like truth serum to this guy. Because of his awful past relationships, current one , things in his past, he has a lot of social issues etc and he just can’t seem to relate to many people. Yet he found me. We actually talked for along time and I realized that this guy was either super good at bull or he was being very open and vulnerable. I left and realized that he was vulnerable and what he portrays to people he works with is not what I see. My mind reeled and I listened over time about how his GF wasn’t respectful , didn’t care about his hard work he does and how she doesn’t even like him to meet her friends. Why wouldn’t I believe him? The red flags were in my brain but his charm and need to be cared for won me over . We got closer, much closer over time. Luckily, we didn’t sleep together and I say that because of the way he acts. He tends to be very present in my life , then disappear .. repeat. Wash. Rinse. The hurt from that is enough at this point. Plus I’ve always wanted him to just be happy. That’s allll I want. If he is working things out with the GF, good! I live my life , I don’t worry about where he is or what he’s doing when I don’t hear from him. When I do see him, my heart thumps a little but I know deep down that we were supposed to meet and just be friends. Maybe my hours of listening and giving advice helped him. Who knows.. but he has given me and shown me the kind of man I don’t want to be with. He’s not the love of my life but I do love him. If that makes sense. You meet every person for a reason ….
Good for YOU! Fiesty! Be proud of your wisdom and insight!
I wish I would have been as wise as you!
Instead I wasted two years of my life foolin’ around and letting some EU MM play with my heart. I am now paying the price emotionally and mentally. I feel like I need counseling.
Thankyou ladies. I believe that he only disclosed the partner after hearing the motorway pile up that my marriage became and how it ended. A tiny bit of conscience perhaps? I pity the woman he is seeing who is young enough to be his daughter as she probably thinks she has the catch of her life and all the while he has been hitting on me. The trouble is we have to take people at face value and let them unfold so we can see the red flags and then exit stage right. When you deal with douchebags it is hard to believe that honest genuine men can exist and if you met one could you believe them? Men say women their own age are cynical and no bloody wonder when all we get are douchbebags and bad dating/marraige/partner experiences. Men my age are emotionally effed up through not sorting out their baggage and jumping ship when the going gets tough without getting their feet wet.
I always say that actions speak louder than words and go by mountains. Do I believe this man is capable of being vindictive? Hell yes like any man who has lost face and come away without the goods. Even if he told me he’d broken up with his partner I am not sure I would believe it and certainly would not feel comfortable being with a man who preys on younger women no doubt because that is the level of his emotional mind set. Younger and more naive means he can get away with his BS that a woman his own age would flush him for. Like a shark that has got a taste for human flesh, that urge in a man for the younger woman doesn’t go away! I don’t want to be looking over my shoulder waiting for the trade in. As Nat says if he isn’t dating you then you are not in it and he isn’t interested in you. For this man I think it is the ego trip that he has still got it. I may be single but am not sad and desperate so he can go elsewhere.
I have a question for Natalie and would like the opinions of others.
I am in a performing group. The man is now hitting on another and she seems to be lapping it up. He purposely does it in front of me, too. It is painful. I don’t want revenge, but I hate to see another woman suffer this mess.
The question is, do I give her any fair warning? She knows he is married. She is not. Maybe she doesn’t care and she is eating up his line because she is lonely also. Maybe also she will be his willing comfort since his wife is not intimate with him. Just maybe his wife doesn’t care if he has a F buddy so she does not have to do it.
Thank God I am out of this mess. What was I thinking? I was longing for love and romance, too, but got heartache and mental anguish instead.
My instincts tell me not to tell the prey. She probably likes him. She needs Natalie’s blog.
Brenda,
Listen to your instincts. It’s best for everyone involved if you stay out of it. Since the new lady knows he is married there is really nothing you can add on the subject. You can feel concern for her but do it from afar. Besides, she probably wouldn’t be very receptive anyhow.
More importantly, you need to take care of yourself. Try not to worry about what he is doing, thinking, feeling. Instead focus on YOU. Forgive you, accept you, love you. You need to let go and move on. You can only accomplish this if you stop giving him space in your thoughts and feelings.
Absolutely not Listen to your instincts. Nothing good will come of it for you, and plenty of bad could happen. She could become vindictive and make you the target of gossip in your group. You don’t need that hassle. Look after you, and let her look after her. Maybe even find another performing group.
“They had often experienced a profound loss and/or some form of betrayal (which is in itself a loss) and felt so lost and broken that in the heat of anger, deep sadness and pain, they on some level vowed not to trust again (or to expose themselves to being hurt again) and so they gave up on genuine love and became open to the counterfeit kind.”
Goddamn. It’s been 3 years since the end of the affair, but that made me cry for the pain my past self was in when she went down that path. Thank you, I needed a little reminder about self-compassion today.
Greetings Fiesty and all- amazing read, and it’s hopefully going to bring me some closure. I have a male friend who likes to flirt with me constantly. We have been like this since we met almost 5 years ago. At the time he acted like he was single, but very shady with his time. He would disappear and I wouldn’t hear from him for days. I joked about it and he just played it off saying he was busy. Another year went by, and we were meeting up more (his work requires him to travel so he does not have a normal schedule). We would get breakfast, or watch a movie, maybe work on projects around his house. I enjoyed it so much and found my self esteem boosted! This is a handsome man who fell for me, and compliments me. Opens the door, texts me all the time, makes me laugh… I was hooked!! When he was called away on a sudden trip I house sat for him and felt so at ease. Things were falling into place. Well, one evening after we had enjoyed a few drinks on the patio, he admitted that he had a GIrlfriend who did not live here. She worked for some mega company and is hours away. I was just floored. He quickly said he didn’t want us to stop being friends but had to be honest. Fine. Well fast forward another year and at this point, he is texting me when she is visiting him telling me how he wished she was just leave and go home. He was always negative and I kept telling him he was silly and to enjoy the time with her. Well she wasn’t “me”. Fast forward to a few months ago. I’ve seen a new man, and don’t know who I am dealing with anymore. He claimed he had such strong feelings for me, and missed me , and he would be over to visit when he was in town. He tends to shy away if he feels pressure at all — examples are from his friends. If they ask him too hang out and do too many things when he is home, he retreats into silence. No one hears from him. He has started doing that with me. I figured he was upset about something so I asked him via text. No response . I let it go for a week and then I saw him for about 2 minutes before he boarded his flight . He said hi, waved, said I looked incredible and turned and walked onto it. I have not heard from him since. Talk about messing with my mind. I guess he still wants to be around me but he has a cruddy way of showing it . I have texted him s couple of times just having a normal conversation and he won’t reply. I so badly want to just grab him by the shoulders and shake him asking him why he’s being so cold… but is he worth it? It’s exhausting me and confusing me….
Go no contact as he is messing around. Block his number and if he makes any attempt to weedle his miserable ass back in to your life then tell him you’ve moved on and don’t want crumbs because you are looking for a man who can step up and deliver an adult relationship which he can’t. Remember the L’Oreal moniker…..because you’re worth it! I even had the clown I’ve described say that to me before he dropped in about his partner. WTF the guy was trying all ways with me to ripen the fruit for picking. Good luck.
Thanks Feisty! I’ve tried to contact him via text for a couple of days now because honestly I am concerned that something is up with him. I know for sure that I’m not the cause of all of this silence , and if he really does want to be in my life he needs to step up. Life is way too short to mess around with this sort of mental game. I’ve been nothing but supportive to him, and he has helped me out at times. BUT he also future fakes quite a bit in regards to that. He says he will help me with things, or come by, call me when he lands… yeah never happens. He’s a total introvert so being a friend to him is nearly impossible. I don’t know why he is blowing so cold with me and ignoring texts. A friend of mine recently listened to all of this and she thinks that he does care immensely about me. He has hang ups though because he is older than me and worries about that since his health is not 100%. (He doesn’t want to burden me). Well that should be my choice. Because I can’t seem to ever find time to see him in person and talk to him, I’m kind of spinning my wheels here. God forbid he drop by for 10 minutes when he has a day off.. I won’t randomly stop by his apartment ever. He likes his privacy and that would just stir things up. Sometimes tho, gah! Anyways I’m ready to cut the chord on this man very soon because the stress he causes me is ridiculous. There are other men out there that will treat me better than this and string me along. There must be!
“He’s a total introvert so being a friend to him is nearly impossible.”
His being an introvert is not the problem. Introverts are just as capable as extroverts of creating intimate, loving relationships (including friendships) and extroverts are just as capable of being emotionally unavailable. Just because someone is an introvert does not mean they are unsocial, distant, uncommunicative, unkind, inconsiderate, thoughtless, unresponsive, unreliable, etc. Your guy has something else going on. He seems really EU and all the patience and understanding in the world isn’t going to change how he treats you.
He can care for you and still be EU. You deserve a relationship based on mutual respect and intimacy and it doesn’t sound like he is the kind of person who can give you that.
Your right Stephanie! No matter how much I wish this man wasn’t so EU, I can’t dismiss the fact. I need to just step back. We have had such a close friendship sharing things that people in relationships do, so it’s very difficult to seperate my feelings. I’m guessing in his mind, he’s not dealing with any of this. What if he suddenly pops up again, blows hot? To me it seems like the perfect time to tell him how I feel. Tell him how frustrated I am but I don’t know if that would help. Bottom line, he won’t be there for me like I want and need to keep looking for the right one.
CSI,
I stayed way too long in my last relationship because I was looking for that opportunity to tell him…something. I’m not even sure what it was anymore. I just know that I spent a lot of time fantasizing about conversations we might have had that I thought would make everything right.
After five months of No Contact, I realize that it doesn’t matter that we never had any of these conversations. NC was the end-game for my self-delusion. I spent the first month completely obsessed with him, even more so than I was when we were together. Then I slowly began to run out of things to obsess about.
At some point over the past few months I’ve come to understand how much of that relationship was in my head. I finally realized that I spent more time obsessing, stressing and fantasizing about what was wrong and how to fix it than I did actually enjoying the relationship. It seems like your situation is similar. You spend very little time interacting with your man and a lot of time thinking about your relationship. It’s time to go NC and set yourself free.
You are a carbon copy of what I am dealing with – and I cannot tell you how relieved I am to hear that someone else has felt this way. I thought I was going nuts. First of all, I shouldn’t be having these feelings because he has a GF. Second I am guilty of flirting back and crossing the line when he initiates. Third I’m exhausted from playing such a mind messing game with myself.
I’ll never change him. I’ll also never understand why he feels that it’s okay for him to treat me like this. I figured we could still be friends, but him blowing cold has just gotten worse.
Wanting that conversation to say how I feel and tell him how hurt I am has made me so uptight and obnoxious about him. In my mind I make excuses for why he probably didn’t text me … or why he doesn’t have 5 minutes for me. It’s time to stop. Stop making excuses and listen to what he’s not saying – he is giving me all he can and that’s not enuff for me.
Part of trying to move forward with NC is dealing with things I see or friends we know that I want to text him about. Or I see a movie that I want to ask him to go to … Nope! I just have to forget about him and not make him an option anymore . It’s been so many years and seeing the friendship part of this entire deal crumble is very tough. Stephanie thank you … I don’t know how you have managed NC. Has he texted or did he text you guilting you at all for not replying ? Mine is notorious for that. .. I’m starting NC tonight.
All these men have things in common which will never change. I’ve flushed and closed out with men who clown about and years later even had one tell me I’d inspired him! Not had a relationship since my divorce 6 years ago and it looks like I won’t and have even stopped dating. That doesn’t stop me. Despite serious health problems I travel alone round the world. Sure there are times when I miss male companionship but then I meet a man who falls short and realise that I’ve had another lucky escape before even dating. So many women have related tales of the effing about that is the world of online dating and I’ve never gone there. What I do know is that having health problems sure sorts out your priorities in life and mine is to enjoy life while I am well. This doesn’t include the many male @ssclowns who would suck the life out me as being unwell does that too often as it is. Besides I don’t want/need someone who is a controlling fixer and could then take over my life and take me down with him.
He can’t guilt you if you are NC. Tell him you are going NC and end it there. I told my ex that it was best we didn’t have contact for awhile and he has made no attempt to get in touch. No Contact is not about guilt, manipulation or punishment for the other person. It’s creating a space for you to be and grow away from the relationship.
Keep reading BR. Natalie has written so much about caring for yourself and how to identify the things that are holding you back from either finding a better relationship or being satisfied with being single. I have bookmarked a number of posts that particularly apply to me and my situation, but I have noticed that almost every post and podcast has a lesson for me.
Best of luck to you. Stay strong! You can do this!
Thank you Stephanie . I have been reading soooo many posts here and feel like I almost have a virtual cheering section :)) there is a chance I will see him in passing tomorrow because of an event that is being held. I’m already fidgety because I know if he sees me, he will be charming, happy, flirty — like nothing has happened. That’s where I get angry. I plan on pushing back and telling him NO. The only nice part about not hearing from him and me staying Nc, is that I find my mind starts to clear. I am focused on my music , my art, and spending time with people who actually care.
This EU disappeared on me when I got gravely I’ll a few years ago. He also vanished when I asked if he would go back for test results because I could use the support. Honestly, I think he just cannot handle things like this. Well guess what, that is life. If he can’t step up for me forget it. I’ve stepped up for him and dropped everything for him to help him out over the years. He would do the same right ? Ha! Pipe dreams. No more . Any EU causing health issues is absolutely not worth it . I’m day 2 Nc and I feel great. Thanks all.
Check out this quote from a new Ed Sheeran song: “So before I save someone else, I’ve got to save myself”
@stephanie : hi! With ur EU did u feel very hurt because you felt he owed you what you had put into the relationship? Did you also feel scared because he was “all you knew”.? Just curious. I am in this same position and I honestly keep asking myself why I let it bother me so much. I’ve known him for many years and I think I am worried that he will disappear with no explanation and that would hurt me so much. Then again he is already hurting me by ignoring me and not reciprocating like he used to. People change but when they don’t talk and explain, leaving someone they supposedly care about in the dark, it makes it 100x worse.
@Hardy, That was exactly how I felt. I gave way more than I should have and was very hurt and angry when none of my efforts were even acknowledged, let alone returned. I kept waiting around for an apology, a chance to tell him off, anything that might have lessened the pain.
I understand now that there was no way for me to heal and grow as long as I was in that relationship. Loving him was the culmination of a lifetime of bad relationship habits. Leaving him, as painful and humiliating as it was, was the start of a journey I’ve been waiting my whole life to take. The journey to find myself. I still have a long way to go but I am content with my current single status. I also know that my next relationship will be different because ‘I’ will be different.
Afternoon. I can mirror some of these same actions with my best friend who is male. We have feelings for eachother but we don’t take that step to be a couple because he has a GF he sees off and on (that’s an entirely other topic). When he is away from her we flirt and see eachother once in awhile but we keep things very casual. If I see him, I see him. He has a job where he works long hours so balancing life and his friends etc is something I can understand. I am busy living my life and if he disappears I just take it as he will show up at some point . But I make sure that u don’t put things on hold for him. Nothing! If I find a guy that I’m interested in, I do not let my feelings for my friend stop me from at least trying to meet someone else. It wouldn’t be fair to me . Don’t let a man hold you back in life — it’s too short. Setup boundaries and don’t let anyone crush your self esteem and make you feel like an option. Be in control of whatever situation you are in. There.. that was my bus ride home moment. Haha lovely day ladies.
I think what you said about finding yourself is HUGE. If you don’t make yourself a priority you will get lost in all of this cloudy crud that the EU sends your way. I’ve tried to explain how tough it is to look the other way in a case like this, and most friends don’t understand. He is just one of those guys … and I am one of those girls. This is tough to quit him…
@Stephanie hey just wanted you to know that I have been NC with the EU AC and I have written a 5 page letter to him on my laptop — I’m not sending it but it helped me to vent and reflect. He wasn’t there for me.. he never changed and me expecting him 2 is wrong. My focus is on me and healing from his mental games 🙂
I lost a very close family member (who practically raised me), my first puppy and my ex boyfriend of 3 years(he cheated on me when all these happened). All of these happened in the same year and then, boom, I started a messy affair. We were very open towards each other though, I knew about his fiancee from the very beginning. He knew I had all these scars on my heart. Now he is going to marry her a few weeks later. I am desperate to end the whole thing. I want to cut off all the ties and run away. But we work in the same office, and I do not want to leave my beloved career. Every time I see him in the office I scream silently and my heart hurts. Please if anyone has been in the same situation can you give me some advice? I cannot wait to get out of this terrible mess.
Hi pumpkinhead – I have been through something like this as well. I had some horrible things happen and ended up finding comfort with a man who has a GF. I didn’t know he had one at first, and I also didn’t know he worked about 50 steps away from my office. Talk about shock when I realized I would see him a lot. Having him literally so close was going to be great since I “fought” for time with him. His job requires him to be laser focused and he works many long hours so when and if I did see him, it was listerally for 2 minutes or less. I felt heart broken, this wasn’t the guy I knew ! By seeing how he was at work, and how thin he was stretched with everything that was in his life, I saw myself and how I couldn’t do this anymore. It just hurt having him around and seeing him so much. I finally stepped away and we are friends, but we don’t hardly see eachother like before. Our connection and chemistry is great but we want what’s best– I want what’s best for me. You have to ask yourself is he worth your torment and struggle? Are your miserable moods because of him worth it? ENuf. Walk away. Peace.
Bleux,
Thank you for your sharing of your thoughts, feeling and actions. Those of us struggling appreciate knowing that we can find inspiration in your experience.
Sincerely,
de elle
De Elle you are welcome . I have also had problems with him ghosting me as well. Ghosting me when he is down the hall… he will talk to me in person and play off the text issue, but as we all know that’s ridiculous. His last thorn in my side was the ghosting when I really needed to hear from him. No texts. Nothing. Maybe he felt the quick hello in the hall counted. Nope. I deserve much more than this. Someone who will treat me with respect and not suddenly ice me out because he is grumpy . We all deserve nothing but the best and to have our hearts treated with respect. 🙂
Run away
Dear Pumpkinhead,
You are hurting? Are you feeling an immense pain not just in your soul but within your core? Please allow space in your mind that any pain you are going through is very real and you are not going through this alone. You are not alone! We are here, reading your words, feeling compassion and trying to reach out to you so that you do not think you are alone drifting on some isolated fresh calved ice floe.
You are not alone through and we are here whilst you work towards healing.
Dear de elle,
Thank you so much for your kindness. I was too ashamed of myself that I couldn’t talk about this openly to anyone around me. Most of my close friends are married now so I do not want them to see me as this single/the other woman could-be. I wish as time goes by this pain will fade away. I am also waiting and hoping gradually I can see him as a day to day co-worker. Nothing more.
Wishing everyone who had been in the same situation managed to walk past, and has become a stronger person.
Hi Pumpkinhead – do you have to interact with him constantly ? Do you sit near him at work? It will be tough to setup boundaries but you need to move forward. I can understand what you mean in regards to your married friends. I’m also in the same spot in life where most friends are married and I’m the solo one. I kept the Ow / blurred line friendship with my EU a secret from all of them. None of them knew, and that are away at me. The entire situation was just stressful. He was not worth it. Whenever I saw him talking in the hall with someone he worked with , I automatically got jealous. That’s not my personality normally. Escaping his lure, his handsome good looks, and his smooth talking was very difficult!! My stomache still turns when I get to the office and I hear him down the hall because part of me wants to see him or text him. Nope. I think of him as a germ…
Pumpkinhead it will be very tough but you need to try to keep your head held high and show him how strong you are and leave him to himself. You can do this. No contact and go out and socialize . Do I live in a large area with places to mingle and meet ? Love life. Good luck.
I work with a FF, EU friend who has feelings for me. I admit I have feelings for him as well but he is taken. We have had this flirtatious fun friendship for years. Over the past 2 years things have changed because his Gf found texts from me on his phone. They were harmless but she still got upset. He backed way off. Understandable . Our friendship has suffered greatly though because he is very guarded around me at times. Other times he is his “normal” flirty self. He doesn’t text me when I text him. It hurts badly. We work in a place where we cannot talk about personal things because we are both so busy and usually are never in the same place at the same time for very long. Tough to explain. When I do see him, I feel like I have so much to say that it’s like a damn opening up. His radio silence upsets me to the point where I have quit social media because I don’t want to see if he is online interacting with others and ignoring me. We have been through a lot together and helped eachother out with some things… I’ve never been that close to a male friend before or fell for a guy that quickly. He openly admits his feelings for me and does care for me and my family but why hurt me by icing me out ? Depression? Issues with work? Etc? Do I just wait until I hear from him ? Ice him? I see him and my stomache turns.:(
Respect yourself. Date many guys but don’t get physical. Read all of these posts again. Do you really want more pain and attachment to this EU UNAVAILABLE man? You are only hurting yourself by trying to stay close to him and he will see you as needy and available to be a fallback FB.
Protect yourself and your heart. Boost your self esteem. You don’t need him. Life is too short for emotional stress. Set boundaries. NC!
My best advice to you, dear one. Take it or leave it and continue to hurt and stress.
Hugs
Those texts the GF saw were not harmless. If you and this guy “have feelings” for each other you should not have been texting even if the content was Rated-G. I’m not saying this to make you feel bad. You need to see this guy for who he is. He has a girlfriend so he shouldn’t be leading you on. Don’t blame the GF for getting upset. He’s treating both of you unfairly and you need to protect yourself by not excusing that kind of behavior.
Go no contact with this guy as much as you can. Stop texting and stop doing things that leave you feeling hurt/rejected. NC is hard at first because you will almost think about him and want him more now that you can’t have those small connections that texting and talking might have given you. It is the best way to break that cycle of needing something that someone else can’t give. You’re stronger than you think. You can do this! You will move on to a better place and a happier you.
Thank you Stephanie and Brenda for replying. Everything you said, it was rolling around in my mind but it’s tough to make yourself truly believe it when you have been so invested in someone. I’ve been such an ego boost for this man, and I barely see anything in return from him. It is very tough going NC because I worry that I will lose his friendship. See , this is the issue. My brain seems to think that we can have a friendship still and behave normally around eachother without the flirting. I’m in denial here aren’t I? Sigh. I’ve told myself a million times that he isn’t good enough for me and I deserve to be treated better (as far as a friendship goes). He’s really shown his true colors. Heck one of my friends who lives near him and talks to him sometimes even told me how selfish he is. (And this is coming from a male point of view). The lack of ending it and having a final say is frustrating me because I feel like I do want to give him a piece of my mind. I see that reading this blog, some people say to do it, some don’t. Since I can’t see him in person long enough to really talk to him, that’s out of the question. I’m tired of this guy because he drains me and you are right – it’s not worth it. I’ve lost so much weight and sleep because of him. My focus is zilch at work as well. Time to reclaim myself and walk with my head up! Also time to accept those date requests from a couple of other male friends 🙂
Hey. I really don’t know where to post this but hope someone can help. I admit I have flirted with a man who has a GF and we have done this for many years. We are best friends and having male friends is never simple. I find he is moody, distant, but at other times the perfect person to have in your back pocket when you are absolutely stuck doing house hold projects etc. my guy has been very busy working lately and I do see him in person at a mutual place maybe once a week but it’s always for less than 5 minutes. He has stopped texting me. Like put the breaks on. In person he is fine and says he got the texts , hugs me and says we will talk later. That never happens. I’m hurt, so confused because I can’t figure out if he just needs space because of everything, and he will come back around? I don’t know.. I just want my friend back. Anyone ever felt this way or been in a similar position? I cringe when I see him on local media doing interviews and he’s acting so happy and carefree when I don’t get to see any of that anymore. I used to. I feel robbed :((
why do you call him “my guy”? he has a girlfriend, and i’m not sure you should be flirting with someone else’s boyfriend. maybe he realized y’alls relationship was inappropriate if he’s going to be committed to his girlfriend, or maybe his girlfriend finally had enough and told him to cut it off with you. at any rate, you admit that you were flirting with an unavailable man, maybe it’s ok that he’s taking some distance, and maybe you can use this time/space to figure out why you flirt with unavailable people, and maybe use this time/space to start practicing healthier behaviors that are more in your best interest? best of luck to you!
Hi Julie. I have always called him “my guy best friend” so I just shortened it to my guy. I’m aware that the flirting between us makes us both wrong in this case, and the attraction is something that is hard to deal with. I never asked to get into this stressful mess, and honestly if I had known it would end up like this years ago I doubt I would have stayed the course.
Right now , I am honestly more focused on being his friend. I just want to know why he blows so hot and cold in our friendship. If having a girl as a close friend is intimidating to him , he should be able to talk to me or at least text me and tell me why he is struggling. It’s never fun to leave someone guessing.
You are way overthinking this. Friendships change over time and it sounds like the two of you have simply grown apart. He may have made other friends whom he prefers or he may be spending more time with his girlfriend leaving less time for his single friends. Since you don’t hang out with the GF, he has to work you into his free time and he is instead choosing to invest it elsewhere. It sucks to get dropped by a friend but at some point you just have to accept it.
I don’t believe he is intimidated by close female friends. Quite the opposite: he is treating you the way he would treat any friend, male or female, because he doesn’t realize how emotionally invested you have become. Or maybe he does realize and is getting uncomfortable.
You’ve only been left guessing because you are taking things so seriously. So he flirted with you. That doesn’t mean that he had special feelings for you and you can’t expect someone who is in a relationship to treat you like someone special. If you really want to pursue it, why don’t you invite him and his girlfriend over for dinner or something and see what happens?
Hi Stephanie:) i spoke with him today and he said he had a death in the family and has been quite upset and miserable.
I read and reread what you said, and it all makes so much sense. The part where you mention the emotional investment , really perked my ears up. He told me today how he loved me and apologized for being out of touch. He also admitted again how he has had feelings for me.
I think after reading your comments, and other topics on this blog, I am going to back away and just let this play out. I would rather be happy and confident than dwelling on him and being sad. It’s not worth my time or effort. When I make a list , I really made a list , of the times he was there for me it was awful. I was always the one that jumped and helped him. Forget it. Enuff is enuff.
I am currently “the other woman” in a relationship with a man I’m completely in love with, but he’s trying to delicately separate from his wife of 8 yrs because they have 3 young children. She already knows about me, but we have decided not to see each other until/whenever that relationship has come to a final close. We still communicate on a daily basis and express our love for each other, but he is going to counseling with his wife as some support for this time period. I am normally a strong independent woman, but this is the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do. I do not want to come out of this looking foolish, but he has been adamant that he intends for us to be together at the end of this.. the timeline just sucks. I am also a divorced mother of a son as well, so we have lots of dynamics in play.
Is there such a thing as a “smart way” to play these types of situations out? Should I cut all contact until he has his life in order? We have had these discussions several times and it just ends in udder saddness. We are each other’s best friends. I want to be supportive but his relationship is not my place to be involved. But I also feel as though I deserve some type of respect in this situation.. I just don’t know what to do. We are in love.
Tell him you will not be in any sort of contact with him unless and until he files for divorce and proceeds full force with the case. And follow your words: no more contact, ever, until he moves on 100% from his marriage.
Unless he sees you mean business, he will string both of you along forever.
My heart goes out to you both. What a tough situation. Still, I feel the need to remind you that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. He may genuinely love you and want to be with you, but his separation is a complex one and he has a lot of decisions to make and questions to answer before he is ready for another relationship. This could drag on for years during which time you will be sitting on the sideline unable to have a normal relationship with him or any other man. He may not be purposely stringing you along but he is asking you to provide emotional support for him to stay where he is. This is unfair to you.
I’m speaking from experience. I had a relationship while in the process of separating from my ex-husband under similar circumstances. Even though I had zero doubts about the divorce (we were both EU and there was little companionship and no intimacy in our marriage), I underestimated the logistical and emotional challenges of bringing three children through a divorce. As much as I wanted and needed love and intimacy, I was not in a position to give and receive it while also dealing with the process of separation.
I agree with the above advice that you need to end the relationship until he is divorced and settled into his post-divorce life.
@Stephanie – I wanted to thank you for your comments. I have been catching up on many posts (some since 2012), and your story is a carbon copy of mine. You have given me a lot of hope and your words, along with Nats etc help make me see the EU AC is no good for me. Being the OW with him off and on, and only getting crumbs when I deserve MUCH more has exhausted me. Change is extremely tough and that’s my focus. I cannot turn back time and turn him into what he used to be. Time to exit my comfort zone and get back out there. I’ve recently lost a lot of weight and gotten into shape after dealing with this Narcassist. He loves to see me and compliment on how I look… sucks for you man! It’s like quitting a drug with some of this guys, so I feel like I’ve gone through the angry phase, onto the next. What makes this tough for me, is I do not see him for small bits of time because of our work schedules. Schedule changes because of rotation and I see him almost everyday for a matter of 15-30 minutes. That wound heals and reopens . I’m strong, and I am pushing ahead hoping NC will help me. Thanks again to all. 🙂
After therapy and meds kicked in, I forgave myself.I didn’t know he was engaged and planning to get married the whole year we were involved.
I no longer dream that we’ll be together someday.Now I dream about a relationship with someone better, and throwing it in his face.
I just started therapy As well Tatum. I’m finding that he is such a drug that I feel like I can’t quit. Seeing him and talking to him makes me cringe because he just blows smoke. “I’ll come over, we will go out, I want to spend time with you…” excuses and FF. He will never change, and hopefully via therapy and this site I can break my habit. Good luck to you!