A few months back, I reunited with an old school friend and we got talking about her love life. As she recounted her experiences with a Mr Unavailable, something said to ask who he was (the ‘ole spidey senses were up) and lo and behold, it was an ex from almost nineteen years ago who I dated– and I use that term very loosely– on and off for four years, that I mention in my book, Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl. Charming, handsome, educated and emotionally delicate (I didn’t look for much back then), he gave good date and for a few hours, we’d share amazing chemistry… and then it would be tumbleweeds for a few weeks or even months.
My mental Roladex of associations and reasoning habits (beliefs) meant that I didn’t hesitate to to blame me for it. After initially agonising over what I could possibly have said or done to scare him off, I reached the conclusion that I always did– there was something wrong with me. A lifetime’s experience of my father flaking out and it meant that I was dazzled by the validation of being reached out to again and at the same time afraid of rocking the boat by questioning his absence. Best to be the good little girl who doesn’t make others feel uncomfortable. My inner voice would try to get me to hear, “Natalie! Would you tell this feckin’ guy to jog on?” but if he called, I answered. I wanted to win. I wanted the tension of not knowing what the hell was going on in his mind to disappear. I never called him; I was summoned. It wasn’t a booty call arrangement as sleeping together didn’t even come into the equation for a couple of years. Of course I wondered what was wrong with me about that too.
We worked around the corner from each other at weekends and I ensured that we didn’t cross paths. It was as if there couldn’t be an unexpected meeting, like when kids start school and then see one of their classmates outside of the normal setting and they act like strangers or freak out. Maybe he was a vampire as we only ever saw each other in the evening. In that funny way that the universe delivers, I only ever heard from him when I was in between relationships or at a loose end and hungry for attention and validation. I used to walk by his workplace and practically sprint past. What if he saw me and either melted into the ground in Mr Unavailable panic, or he rejected me?
Things came to their natural end when I headed off to the U.S. and then moved over to London where I continued to rack up quite an identity parade of Mr Unavailables. One weekend when I was back home in Dublin, I bumped into his friend. He had the brass nuts to chastise me for hurting him by not wanting a relationship– what the what now? A relationship had been on offer? Apparently I only wanted to date black guys. Total bullshit. That conversation never happened. I was fuming. Here was yet another guy blaming their crap on something to do with race. Amazing chemistry my arse. In that moment I could see that it had always been all about him bleating his One Time in Bandcamp tales of woe and me blowing smoke up his bottom about how amazing he was. I would have noticed this if I hadn’t been so busy living out some warped remake of when I used to be daddy’s little girl who finally got to see him. Little did I know that he actually worked around the corner from me in London for a few years and I bumped into him a few days before he was due to move back home. He tried to press The Reset Button and suggested that we meet up. Even though I was about a year away from my epiphany, I watched him turn beet red as I told him what his friend said. He denied it down to the ground, of course.
When I learned that my friend was dating him, it was one of those jump out of your seat and squeal in shock moments and yet it didn’t take long before the two of us were falling around laughing because nearly twenty years on and the same tomfoolery that was happening with me… has been going on with her. Same lines, same One Time in Band Camp, same hot and cold, same trying to spin it into it being about some random thing about her, same wrecking her head trying to figure him out. It made me shiver.
That’s the funny thing about Mr (and Miss) Unavailables: the current partner questions the hell out of themselves and wonders what the hell they’ve done to ‘change’ him/her or put them off and some of their previous partners are still beating themselves up and blaming themselves for the ambivalence they experienced.
It was a shame to hear that not much had changed. You’d like to think that people grow and you know what? Some do but some continue to lather, rinse, repeat because they lack the self-awareness and willingness to be vulnerable that would enable them to break their pattern. I don’t sit around hoping that none of my exes do better by themselves or others, because I don’t own them and they don’t own me. I don’t need or want the reassurance that they’re out there messing with someone else’s head. ‘Our’ time was a series of moments in our respective lives that doesn’t need or have to be all that we were and are. We each had our part in it.
Thankfully I figured out that I’m only responsible for my own feelings and behaviour because if I’d kept judging me on the ability of the guys I engaged with to commit, I would be in a very unavailable place right now.
What I’ve known for a very long time and what I keep trying to say in a thousand and one ways is, it’s not about me (or you).
This is not a story about how people don’t change— some people do grow and evolve and some people keep experiencing variations of the same situation and either keep seeing and responding to it in the same way (and so don’t grow and evolve) or eventually, the pain of experiencing anymore of the same becomes greater than their fear of change. It’s their journey and it’s their change to exact.
The mistake we make is personalising someone else’s behaviour to such a great degree that we put our life on hold as a result or make destructive choices off of the back of those judgements. If they evolve, it’s really only going to be a problem for you if you haven’t.
It’s not about whether some other woman or guy is “better” than you and that they’re going to get the payout from that relationship slot machine as soon as your back is turned. It’s not because of the way you looked, or something you said, or something you did to change them and ‘make’ them go from the available person that they weren’t in the first place to the unavailable person that they actually were. It’s not because you were unable to be “perfect” all of the time. Their actions are an expression of who they are and their own struggles. Don’t spend your life looking for confirmation that they haven’t changed or that you’re “right” about their problems; your truth is your truth. If you don’t like the way you felt and you don’t like the way you were treated, that is enough.
Your thoughts?
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Such wise words I am trying to learn this everyday as since my ex found a new partner, I have felt it was about me. I keep feeling I need to be perfect to make something work!! I really struggle and have to keep reminding myself it is not about me 🙂
Brilliant. It’s always so simple to see from the outside, but it’s so hard to live and practice. I’ve been fighting this behavior my entire life and am at the point where I know I have to place this thinking in the past.
I always read your blog
I have been going through this with a man for over three years. The hot and cold… The I’m too pushy for him..he had a bad marriage and childhood..the maybe we could have a family of our own…but in the meanwhile just wait for me to call you.
Yet he always left and came back, telling me around last Christmas that he couldn’t be without me … Well you guessed it.. He’s gone again. And this time, because I tried to question what happened , he blocked me from all forms of contact about a month ago.
Imagine… I sat here for years wondering what I did or could’ve done while he left and came back. Each time welcoming him back and going way above the crumbs I got in return
I’m left to wonder…is him blocking me finally him moving on to do this to someone else?
So motivating to read your blogs… I find myself rereading them every few months
That last paragraph is such a big statement; THANK YOU.
Omg thank you thank you thank you!! This is exactly what I needed t hear! I keep going back as soon as I hear his voice! I was almost over him when he contacted me again !!! I was strong! I looked in his eyes and calmly told him that I could NEVER go back after the way he’s treated me! I said, ‘Are you crazy? After the way you treated me, you ask me to sleep with you cuz your gf dumped you’?
Then I drove away with my head held up high looking at his pitiful self sulk away. It felt great! Then the phone calls within an hour begging me. Then the emails offering me money to pay my rent! I caved. As I followed him into the elevator of the hotel, I said to myself, ” I need therapy”! But, THIS time he was going to fall in love with me! But guess what? The day after sex? Same as always. No phone calls. No emails etc. So I sat down with him and told him what “I” wanted in a relationship and that I wasn’t putting myself BACK in the same place. So now I’m waiting to see what happens! Like I don’t already know. I’m thinking , if I don’t answer his calls and be unavailable, he will want me more! What’s wrong with me? That’s when I looked up this site. I have to accept that he is who he is. He doesn’t want/know how to have a relationship. I can’t change him. And yes, you’re right, I want to win damnit! I want to be THE ONE who he changes for! Lol hearing myself say this sounds so stupid !! I really needed to hear this today! So thank you!!
A nice read as I just spent a day with my Mr Unavailable on Friday. I started blaming myself trying to figure out what’s wrong with me? Why didn’t he want to spend time Saturday or Sunday like we have done in the past? I keep blaming it on other women are better in bed, cook better or he may feel they are better mothers. Did I say something wrong. Is it because my butt isn’t big? I’m so tired of feeling this way. Pray for me. The guy has the answers but he will never tell me why I am not the one.
There is nothing wrong with you, Tosha. But there is a hell of a lot wrong with this man – who incidentally is not ‘yours’ at all.
Go no contact, and stick to it like glue, and start repairing the damage he has done to a perfectly fine and good woman. That would be you, by the way.
@Tosha; also, he doesnt have the answers. No decent person is with someone for their cooking abilities or size of butt — parenting style is important but since I assume you dont share kids, thats irrelevant also. Sounds like you are down in the dumps, questioning yourself, making it about you, lowering your expectations and standards, and having no fun at all with this guy who only leaves you tottering about in anxiety. Whats the good of that?? Find happiness – look for being happy. Look for being calm. If the things in your life dont produce that, then walk away from them, or change yourself.
Oh so right on again, Natalie ! I am in a PROCESS, and it IS a process, of ending [and making it stick this time around] a 10 year basically unavailable relationship with someone I love, and I believe he does love me , in his own stunted way .. Figuring out how I got here, and why. However, as you say, if you don`t like the way you felt, and you don`t like the way you were treated, THAT is enough . Your blog is a lifeline, and I thank you !
OMG Moi, I really had to laugh when I read this comment, because it is EXACTLY — word-for-word — where I am, in the final stages of, right now.
Brenda K, I feel your pain, truly ! only someone going through it knows how multilayered it all is, I honestly think I would rather have my fingernails pulled off than get on this rollercoaster again [ and again] No contact is the best way, as he showed up at work on Friday, after a month and I had a relapse of suffering all weekend ..
Yes, I’ve had enough of unavailable relationships for at least the next several lifetimes. I’ve also learned a lot about how one’s own worldview makes it complicated or simple to let them go. For us, it’s a very multilayered, complex thing while to others, it’s a simple matter of “That guy is a giant tosser, so just toss him already and be done with it!” I finally did. You’ll get through to the other side of it. Hugs!
I loved reading this….after following Nat for about 1.5 years, I’ve finally gotten to the point where I let the Mr Unavailable’s go w/o questioning or thinking “what did I do wrong.” This post couldn’t have come at a better time. I just got an email (via an online dating site) from a Mr Unavailable whom I met about 10 months ago…..he was a classic Mr. U. A classic. We met online, and went on one date. That was enough for me. Plus, he had many of the red flags Nat talks about in her Fall back book. Including anger issues. I moved on. Then, fast forward, and a few days ago, he does a classic hoovering maneuver and emails that it’s been a long time, how was I doing. I’m great, but I’m not answering his message. What for? He treated me unkind on our date, and our communication after that. He also came right and on our date and said he didn’t believe in good relationships, he thought all men cheated (now you see why I didn’t want to go out with him again) and a whole host of other stuff he said on our date. Buh bye, and no contact. No contact still. Maybe he needs a little narcissist supply. Maybe he’s playing games. Maybe he’s pushing the resent button. Doesn’t matter. Ten months ago I blocked his cell #. As for his recent communication to me….all I have to say is, No Contact is such a beautiful thing!
Wow, a definite Assclown!
Good for you on recognizing that and going no contact. Sounds like a total wanker and the sad thing is, lots of women won’t see him for what he is and will continue to date him.
Hopefully they’ll find BR!
Not taking it personally is a lot harder than it seems. Most of the time if someone is emotionally unavailable it is about them and their damage! However, they don’t even know how much their unhealed wounds (that they are afraid to deal with)affects other people. Or they don’t think they have any problems and it’s someone else’s fault. I broke up with every ass-Clown (I love that name!) that I dated simply because they were not right for me and I hated the game playing and especially the divorced sods who had no business dating at all! You can hear it in their talk they are not over someone. Don’t take it personally, just take your cab fare and leave the date early!
I was dating a woman I liked very much, but she was new at the gay thing, she had two little kids and an estranged husband living in the cottage behind the big house. She assumed I’d want her to get rid of him so she filed for divorce and made him search for other lodgings. She didn’t discuss it with me first, she just assumed I wanted it. Actually, she got to stay at my house overnight a lot more when he on the premises to watch the kids.
Her son was 6 and very cute, but when he saw his parents divorce and his daddy move away, he gave me the Vulcan death stare and ever since he was little prick to me. His mother didn’t lift a finger to stop him. She was reinforcing his bratty side by her silence. I think she felt guilty. Soon we saw less of each other and started bickering more because she was getting overwhelmed by family and work obligations, plus throwing in her conversion to being gay and her demon son’s determination to run me off because in his view I alone ruined his happy family.
The mom was very excited about turning gay–turns out she loved women! When I took her to her first A List lesbo party, her eyes lit up and she kind of ditched me and went around introducing herself to all the women there.
I knew then our days were numbered.
There was a boisterous, flashy woman in our group who had screwed me out of $10,000 when I handled the media launch for her new acupuncture clinic. She was arrogant and blase when she told me I should have written out a contract for our agreement. I said, “I don’t usually have to worry about friends screwing me in handshake business agreements, but apparently you are the exception to the rule.”
I don’t like to quibble with cheapskates or deal breakers, so I blew it off.
But of course when the mother I was seeing needed acupuncture for a strained neck, she went to this con artist for treatment. The quack seduced her right off the exam table, she dumped me and they ended up dating.
I had to laugh, because although I have plenty of flaws, the acupuncturist was louder, more impatient, grumpier, cheap, self centered, inconsiderate, and a die-hard pothead. The mom was 20 years sober and in AA, so the pot addiction must have been a lovely surprise.
She told the pothead that had to stop. Knowing the pothead, she probably blew smoke in her face as a retort.
Usually when an ex wants to date a friend, one or both will call me and see if I’d object to it, and usually I appreciate the courtesy and tell them I am fine with it.
These two avoided me at all costs. Trouble is, I knew both well enough to know they might last a month, tops. I told mutual friends it was like watching Foghorn Leghorn dating Yosemite Sam. >>KABOOM<< I love karma when it unfolds in such a hilarious way. Bitches. 😛
Ha, I laughed with your last phrase!
In my case, it was so funny to watch the ex dating a guy (!!!!) just to get back at me for exposing her “lesbianness” to the world… If I ever felt bad about how things ended, it just made me laugh out hard. Poor girl. Then she got dumped, because obviously, she’s not into guys.
Karma is real 😛
Hey, Natalie –
It’s funny how many times you can say “I own myself – I don’t own them” before you truly believe it. If you truly *own* that, then things – not just relationship things, but all things – become oh so much better.
I enjoyed your little stroll down memory lane. 🙂
I’ve been browsing these boards for years. And these people all sound like narcissists to me. Hot/cold, leave, come back. On their terms, us never feeling good enough. Euphoria in their company for minutes, days (a week, two at the most), until they go right back to the douche bag they’ve been being for how many months, years, or decades. And we keep hoping, that they’ll continue being the charming, fun, passionate, sexy person that we love. But, it never lasts. And we are too weak to walk away. We keep blaming ourselves (denial) that we’re involved w a real assclown and we’re wasting our precious time and missing out on a life we were born to love and enjoy. Our lives are so wrapped up in ‘them’ that even when they disappear…. They’re more in our minds than ever. It’s like being in a prison that we’ve created. An addiction. An obsession to being miserable and fixated on ‘bad’, not the good that’s out there. And just when we realize that for the nth time, and get ready to move on (this time), here they come again…. And lather, rinse, repeat. It takes real courage to make a life change and completely walk away. But it’s worth it. Because every aspect of our lives is effected by it. They are toxic, and even if you need to be alone for awhile before getting out there again… We need to remember, how good we really are and what we have to offer the world. It’s not ‘us’. The only thing we’re doing wrong is thinking it’s our fault… If you want to blame yourself for anything… It’s for staying and putting up w such BS for far too long.
True true true Demke, on all counts. But I would like to add, while we may be guilty as charged, we deserve our own compassion. this believing it`s real love only to find out NO, then yes ! over and over is indeed crazy making. Some days are harder than others, but I will get there in baby steps and I wish the same for all of us here on this great site !
Demke, so true. Very powerful words.
How true you are and how difficult it is to get out of that emotional
Prison .. The addiction the obsession.. I have been going through it for years.
I am a month into NC .. The last time I saw him we argued .. About the same things.. I was in tears and walked away .. Then I couldn’t breathe .. I was on the ground in the heat having a panic attack.. I couldn’t catch my breath.
Do you know what he did? He drove away and left me.
Left me trying to catch my breath on the ground.. 35 degrees heat with no water.
If he had seen a dog lying at the side of the road .. Weak and with no water, he would have stopped
But he .. He who said he loves me.. Drove away
That is the picture I keep in my head to get me through another day of NC.
But it is hard
You (we) are all wonderful people in our own ways and no shit should make us feel any less
Good luck to us all
And thank you for being here x
Demke,
Your response was perfect and sums up exactly how I feel. I’m going to print it and refer to it when withdrawal symptoms kick in. After 8 years on the emotional roller coaster from hell, I have walked away. I will probably always love him….but not enough to waste another moment of my precious time on this planet. Thank you.
I had finished it with my EUM (not assclown), though defo has narc tendencies, about 14 months ago after finding out he cheated. I was heartbroken beyond belief and never truly got over him, with periods of sporadic no contact, usually me making the first move (text), he always responded immediately. In January we met again and kind of fell into a FWB relationship (talk about having my expectations managed down!). I think that i have become EUM too in order to keep seeing this man and expecting crumbs. Lately we have been going on dates, all instigated by him and I could feel my expectations rising again. On Friday we had a terrific evening and morning then on Saturday evening it all fell apart. I was in town with friends when I had enough to drink I decided to part ways with them as they wanted to go clubbing. As I live way out of town and was supposed to be staying with these friends, I made my way to ex’s house. No answer from his phone which was so unlike him, this got my suspicions up. When I reached his house I could see him snogging a woman through the window. I actually vomited right there. Obviously I should have ran but I saw red and started shouting and screaming through the letterbox to let me in, making a holy show of myself. Cursing and abusing him and her for about 10 minutues. Finally she let me in and walked away. When i got in he was laying out on the settee with his eyes closed as though nothing had happened, so I started hitting in to him. He does not argue, but said “you know I wont change” and then said stay if you want Im going to bed. I cried myself to sleep and in the morning was calmer and said that it was over. I apologised for my behaviour and felt bad for myself and embarrased, as what right did I have to do that. I was angry because we had just made love that morning, it was tender and passionate and we do have a great connection so to then see the same night he is with someone else, well its crazy making right enough. I want to do no contact, but I crave this man and I miss his company. We always have a good time and I actually do not want a long term boyfriend or marriage just now. He never got angry and said it was up to me if we continued to see each other. I think its a possibility he doesnt want the responsibility of ending things. I dont know how to deal with this, he still has expensive things of mine in his house which I need to get back but I want to leave it a good 3 months to see if I can finally do no contact and get him out of my system. I am ususlly reserved and quiet and had very strong morals and ethics, over a 4 year period they have gone. I should perhaps note that this is only my second boyfriend, my first lasted 17 years and then I was single for 7 years, Im not daft but I seem to be stupid in my actions with this guy, I think I am naieve though and being with him has been a learning experience for sure. This time I am not broken hearted but I am disappointed that it may be over and Im not ready. Help
Paloma Blanca, you are all over the map with what you say you do or don’t want. You don’t want long term or marriage, but you go batshit crazy that the man you say you’re OK with casual about is just as casual about you. You want to WIN him. You set him up as some kind of prize in your mind, and it seems you will take any humiliation just to keep seeing him.
That’s unhealthy. And if you want someone who is only going to be intimate with you and you alone, this is not the man for you.
And wow are you waffling. He has some of your things, but you don’t want to claim your things because maybe in 3 months he might…?…what…..have the scales fall from his eyes and truly see that you are the woman for him? Not gonna happen.
But it seems you are not ready to give up the fantasy in your head. So you are on this rollercoaster for the long haul, apparently.
Thanks. I guess I needed tough love today. I have only one friend that i talk to about this and she encourages me and says just do what pleases you. Not helpful but I suppose it’s because she is hung up on an ex too. I was drunk that night but even then when i was banging on the door I recall myself thinking”just walk away’ don’t make a show of yourself” but ultimately I did. I’m a reflective person and I think I did this to hit my rock bottom so it would really be over. It’s only been 4 days but I’ve had no desire to contact him where as usually I’d be thinking about him constantly and sent a text. The 3 months Nc idea is because Natalie says to give it at least that before making contact if you wish to be friendly. As I said in another post we will definitely see each other because of circumstance so I’m just trying to find a way of coping with not feeling that pull to him. I don’t know what will work but I have to put myself first, maybe longer no contact is required but I did want my things back. Perhaps just have to write it off and be ok with that! I appreciate the support and know in my heart you are right, its what I would have said to my friends and myself if I wasn’t trying to justify his and my own behaviour just to keep seeing each other. X
Elgie,
I enjoy your comments on BR. You provide insight that gives us all something to think about. You have posed some really good questions. You are one of the chief advisors here as far as I m concerned. This is some sound advice.
Batshit crazy (lmao). I want to avoid going batshit crazy for sure. Sadly, she will never win this loser over. He will never take responsibility for what he has done. Letting a man cheat and then inviting him back into bed will never turn out right. You have told him that you have no respect for yourself and he can do whatever he wants and you will welcome him back. It is gonna get worse.
MJ
@Paloma Blanca,
Whether you’re ready or not, it’s over. It was over 14 months ago and you’ve gone back for more. It hurts and you can’t un-ring the bell. Don’t use the excuse of expensive things being at his place. So what. You get them back if you need to. He IS an assclown. Say it. ASSCLOWN. THOUGHTLESS. CRUEL. Say it.
“We always have a good time” you say. Really? Really?
You claim you’ve become EU, that HE is also EU. You say you don’t want long term right now. You don’t want marriage right now. You are making what you want smaller and smaller so you can accept poor behavior. BUT DO YOU REALLY WANT A GUY THAT IS SCREWING SOMEONE ELSE JUST HOURS AFTER BEING WITH YOU?
IT made you physically ill.
You screamed.
You ranted.
You hit him.
But you stayed.
You cried yourself to sleep.
And THEN you apologized. Ughh.
You witnessed him with another woman. He told you that you could stay IF you wanted, but that he was going to bed (without you?). He remained calm and disconnected from you and all emotions. And you accepted this treatment. He hurt you. He rubbed it in. And YOU felt bad for getting upset with him. You’re taking on the blame and you don’t need to. Who wouldn’t get upset? Oh, HIM because HE DOESN’T CARE and he’s doing whatever he wants because HE CAN. You don’t have to participate anymore. If it hurts now, it will keep hurting. He said, “you know I wont change”. It may be the only truth you’ll get.
“I crave this man and I miss his company.” I understand that craving because I too have felt it for the wrong person. Put down the crack pipe.
Paloma Blanca, of course he is an assclown! Why do you say he isn’t? You say he has narcissistic tendencies and is a cheater. And that he’s thrown crumbs your way. And has actually told you that his cheating behavior is not going to change. That IS a real definition of an AC.
Have him get your stuff back immediately by leaving it out on your doorstep. The “stuff” is just an excuse for more misery with this loser. He’s happy with the FWB and has made that very, very clear to you. Get your stuff back ASAP – maybe have a friend do it. Or write it off and forget about it. And then go serious, forever NC with this guy, unless you want to forever starve on his cheating, unloving crumbs. Sex is not love. Not by a long shot. Your tender, great connection (referring to the sex) is not what you want it to be, it is just sex. Don’t make anything more out of it than that, as he clearly is just enjoying the FWB thing and you are being used.
Thanks Nina. I know you are right, perhaps I am using him too though as I wouldnt want a lasting relationship as I couldn’t trust him. I enjoy his company and I say he isn’t an assclown because I understand him and accept his flaws and unwillingness not to commit to me. He has his own issues. What I really struggle with is lies and not being upfront about what he wants. He says he doesn’t know what he wants. I am able to be honest with him so why can’t he with me. He doesn’t want to lose me he says. Last time when I found out he cheated I was devastated as at that time I thought we were working towards a future and I obsessed over the “whys” for a long long time. This time I have barely shed a tear which is why I think i have become EUM too. I’m numb, agree no contact is best for a while, maybe then we can be friends. The reason I want to be friends is that our family’s are close and. Think we will always be in each other’s lives at different points in the future and I don’t want to hate him, but just be able to be around him without feeling much at all if that makes any sense. Thanks for the response x
Paloma, if he’s a cheater, none of the rest of any “assets” he may have mean squat. Zero.
You may understand and accept his flaws (really? you accept his lies and cheating? Those are waaaay more than “flaws.” They’re a deal-breaker.)
His whining about not wanting to lose you — of course he doesn’t! You’re available as a fallback girl to him. What’s not to like, from his perspective?
Do you really think he will change?
You don’t have to hate him, but if you have any degree of self-esteem you will think about what YOU want in a man.
One more question: Why would you want to be friends with a cheating liar? The fact that your families are close is not enough of a justification to be “friends” with a cheat and a liar. I have higher standards for my friends, and I bet you do, too!
And you might think about getting tested for STD’s if he is simultaneously shagging other women. Ick.
Nina,
I had the same thought about the STD. Ick. A liar and a cheater is a MAJOR deal breaker. I had one of those liar/cheater. I would have never entertained the idea of running back into his arms (after the HOtel) and the thought of HIM ever touching me would make me vomit. I was terrified that the monster could have given me a disease. Nasty.
@Paloma -I could blind fold you in a dark alley (and spin you around three times) and find someone to treat you better. Protect yourself. This craving you have to remain his friend sounds like trauma bonding. This also reminds me of a clip I saw on television where a man was beating a woman and she was trying to hug him. In spite of how many times he punched her she was trying to hug her abuser. He keeps cheating and you keep running to him. You made love to this man after he cheated on you. As NML says, Back Yourself. Put YOU first. The credit that you are giving him -give that to yourself. Don’t allow anyone to treat you like that.
Again, this sounds like a trauma bond. It is a form of addiction. This is serious. Read information by Patrick J. Carnes, Ph.D. What you are dealing with is serious. There is treatment for traumatic bonds. Say Something we have discussed the ending of our relationships being like ending an addiction. This is not a joke. I don’t want him back (we are never ever getting back together). But healing from this is like what people describe in terms of recovery from an addiction.
An article I pulled about trauma bonds reads as follows:
An excellent book on the effects of trauma (and repair) is The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk MD
Intense relationships also tend to hijack all of a survivor’s relating capacity. It is like a state of being burnt out. First, while it is very easy to become attached to a very chaotic and inconsistent person, it is simply not possible to form a consistent internal object representation (feeling memory) about them. When separated from the intense partner, the urge to make contact is usually intense because it is a stable feeling memory (or internal object) that makes separation from an important other person tolerable in any circumstance.
Second. the survivor can come to find that it can be almost impossible to relate to anyone, even family or old friends, except superficially. There is a biological craving for intensity that no normal relationship will satisfy. This provides a feeling of being totally alone, and totally empty. At first, only going back to the primary aggressor can overcome it. It would be normal in this state to believe that something is horribly wrong with leaving (even if it seems equally true that something is horribly wrong with staying. If it can be understood that abstinence from unnatural intensity will eventually restore normal relating capacity, the period of distress can be better endured.
Please don’t sleep with a man you know is cheating. You are putting your health at risk. Love yourself.
thank you MJ, i have in the past felt like I am addicted to him a bit as my normally rational thinking just goes out the window. I have spent too long obsessing over “why did he do this to me” when we were first dating and then found out he cheated for the first time. I immediately got myself checked for STD’s and swore Id never go back. This is only the 2nd man i have slept with and im 44 yrs old. 14 months later i find myself back at square one, i guess i thought i could handle FWB, but the lying that goes with it does my head in. I do still need that validation from him, often putting our not being together as circumstantial (family’s knowing each other etc) but now I think I am kidding myself, the guy is a player and no one woman will ever be enough. Im not sure about trauma bonding though, at this point I have no desire to see him, its only been 4 days, so early stages of No Contact but I am pleased that the craving to reach out to him is not there. As everyone says its a process of healing so I have to allow myself time and a trip to the sexual health clinic again! I love and appreciate that you are all straight talkers and have found a way through it all. Being with him was the best and worst time of my life so far, but i know that this is not a healthy relationship for me.
Paloma, he is the last person you need validation from. The person you need validation from is yourself. Validating that you are worth much, much more than a crumbs FWB relationship based on lies and cheating. He can’t validate you at all. Please look elsewhere for validation. You’re on the right track, going to the STD clinic again and staying NC. You will survive this! And one day you will look back at this and shudder, that you thought this was a relationship that could bring you anything except misery and emotional poverty.
I’ve just read and old BR post on what is an assclown. My guy ticks all the boxes near enough. Why did I want to think the best of him and in the process lose myself. Florence maybe? Just how did it happen I don’t know, had plenty of self respect and thought I had boundaries in place. Could one man really wheedle his way through them, seems like he did and I never saw it coming. I’m worried now that I will not be able to trust someone ever again and thinking well of someone was a good quality I had,but now, well, it will take a long time for me to trust again
I absolutely understand where you’re coming from….I wonder how I’ll EVER be able to trust MYSELF again. I feel like an incredibly poor judge of character…ugh
That is what I thought for a long time too, But now I think it was more a poor lack of ‘REALITY’ seeing the red flags all over and choosing to look at the GOOD qualities and being in a bad place to start with anyhow, These guys don’t care and don’t look for someone to care for in return, Just ego strokes and back up plans.
And then we get stuck trying to figure it out because most of us would never do that to anyone so of course it’s foreign land in that way, Just trust your gut when the red flags come around that he is who he is in this negative way even if he has some good things going like sensitivity in certain areas, never overlook the insensitivity in the areas concerning you.
It is what it is, and there is no sense it ignoring anything, that never makes it go away, or talking about how it hurts you or explaining anything to these well ‘children’ really. Mr. wrong is Mr.wrong no matter how right you are in your heart, how loving you are, how patient you have been, or how forgiving you are.. He can still be wrong for you no matter what you do or don’t do and he can love getting ‘something’ for basically doing or giving ‘nothing’ much in return.
They needed the attention pretty much the same way we grabbed the crumbs as they came, Both lacking.
Without trust there is no way I can say things were worth ‘waiting’ for or saving, Because without trust I have no future the way I wanted it to be it or dreamed it to be for myself.
Once trust is lost all is lost no matter how good it could have been on my end, It takes two to make it work period.
Of course many of these guys would like you to think if only you did this or that thing maybe it would have worked out? That just buys them more time for them to stay undecided and uncommitted and of course that could go on for decades.
Just a waste of time and breath, like is to short if I am going to go home to someone? Let it be someone I feel relaxed with not someone I have to always wonder about because they need that ego stroke of making me insecure at all times or feel like I am competing for something, screw that and screw the fears they love to instill, don’t think they don’t know the damage they cause, they do and love it just another reason to feel like GODS because the only power they put out there is usually negative powers because they don’t want to do the work to do the right thing, they might miss hitting another hole if they did that, which is what it is usually about in the end.
And then when that hole is not as magical as they hoped it would be? they want to still have your love and empathy, well screw them once they had to go out and hit another hole they do not need to come sniffing around again at yours.
My legs have been crossed for a long time and it wont be that easy to uncross them I will tell you that.
I have recently just gone through this and think that I am now realising the error of my ways. It seems that forever I have had a need to be validated by a man… But not a nice decent man who wants a healthy relationship but by an EU man. I have now realised at the ripe old age of 45 that this is never going to happen and that isn’t because there’s anything wrong with me! It is because they all come with their own issues…. The last one who said ‘I’m not into relationships’ had been abused as a child and had severe trust and commitment issues. Although last thing I heard he was in a relationship which made me question myself once again. I am determined that this was the final unhealthy relationship that I will ever have. I still think about him every day but have had no contact since February… It’s getting easier but I’m scared that it’s made me too wary about men now… But better to be like that than to throw myself into one unhealthy relationship after another! I have had some counselling and this has helped me piece together events of my childhood concerning my father and then my long term partner who is father of my children who physically abused me. It’s made me realise that none of it is my fault and that I am worthy of a loving relationship, and that I don’t need validation from someone who reminds me of my father or my ex and that the reasons they didn’t want me had nothing to do with me!! It’s tough as I still doubt myself and wonder ‘why wasn’t I good enough’ but at least I understand why I think that now.. So it’s a start and find Nat’s posts so inspiring 🙂
When I hear “‘I’m not into relationships’ had been abused as a child and had severe trust and commitment issues” I am thinking of all the people I know in real life and here on BR who have been abused in childhood, sometimes severely and these people are working on themselves and are genuinely looking for ways to have better relationships. So when I hear some dude say this “I’ve been abused as a child. I am not into relationships” on a date (!) and who then proceeds to chase me, I see a person who says “I am the way I am. I am perfectly content with the inadequate ways I treat my relationships and myself. And if after my words you still allow me to bullshit you and think I am gonna change, then it’s on you, baby. That’s not my responsibility”. They are users. Flush!
I’m a 38 year-old British girl living in Switzerland.
After 7 destructive relationships in my late teens and 20s I had therapy, read and re-read ‘Beating Anger’ (Mike Fisher) and ‘Women Who Love Too Much’ (Robin Norwood) and did an anger management course, and all this gave me shocking insight into how low my self-esteem was. After a few disappointments with guys in 2011 I vowed I would never, ever have a one-night stand ever again and would follow all the advice in ‘Women Who Love Too Much’.
Last November I started meeting up with a gorgeous colleague, John, outside of work. – We’d had a couple of deep conversations at work and, on our first “date”, he told me ‘I clearly remember the first time we talked. I felt like we had a strong connection, like I’d always known you, and must have really needed to vent, because I remember being very open with you. We had quite a serious conversation, didn’t we? I worried that I was boring you’. Every time we went out together he said that our friendship meant a lot to him and, the first time we kissed a lot, we agreed that we would consider ourselves friends with ‘a bit more’. He said that, before if/when things really evolved between us, he’d like me to know him very well so that I know exactly who I was with. I liked this idea, and also wanted John to know me really well. Back then John only showed signs of emotional maturity and not of dysfunction!
On our 5th date, when John and I were on our way to the cinema, he casually dropped into the conversation that he’d been dating a girl last year! He’d met her a year before (when they were both on a mission in Africa for the UN). She lives in New York. He visited her (for around 5 days each time) in February, March, April, June and August last year. John told me that: The relationship ended last August, but they were still in touch/friends; this girl never, ever visited him in Europe (for several reasons) even though she had the money to do so; he said he’d lost interest in her, because it was obvious that she wasn’t interested enough in him. I said ‘Gosh, so you got to know each other quite well then’, and he replied ‘Not really, no – anyway, I don’t want to dwell on it’. After the cinema John and I got very close physically for the first time!
The next time that John and I met, as we were walking to the tram stop (to go back to his apartment for the night), he mentioned that he was supposed to marry his girlfriend in New York in August! John said that this girl called their wedding (a low-key ceremony) off a few weeks/days before, but that she was very nice in explaining to him why. John said that this girl (who is 38) cancelled the wedding because she ‘wasn’t sure’. He said that, at his age (42), he doesn’t have a lot of time for people who ‘aren’t sure’. I then told him (in a slightly lighthearted way) my experiences of 3 previous boyfriends who’ve left me for a close female friend and asked, ‘If this girl [I don’t know her name] hears about you and I, do you think she’ll suddenly realise that she does want to marry you after all’?
The next time that John and I met he used classic lines of an emotionally unavailable man and told me ‘I’m still in love with her [Miss New York]’ and ‘I don’t want to hurt you’, and he no longer wanted to kiss or anything more than that! After Christmas and New Year (when we didn’t see each other), we met up for a drink before he took a month’s contract break from work. When having a drink, he told me that he was going to the USA as part of his contract break. After our drink he told me that he didn’t want me to go home with him and said ‘If you take this personally you are really selfish’. I found out (in late March) that he’d stayed with Miss New York (in New York) for a week in early February.
After John had come back to work in mid-February I ignored him and, on the few occasions when our paths crossed at work, I pointedly (and angrily) blanked him. In mid-March I apologised for this (by email), then we enjoyed a friendly exchange of text messages for a few days… John didn’t reply to the last text I sent so I started blanking him again.
In early July I found out that John would be going to live in the Middle East at the start of August.
The following text message exchange ensued:
ME: ‘I can’t bear this any longer. I need to know – WHY didn’t you reply to the last text I sent you on the 18th March? You have totally BROKEN MY HEART with your lies & charming words, that have not been backed up with actions. Do you only like girls who chase you, so they feed your ego’?!
JOHN: ‘You are completely wrong about me. You have no idea the pain you caused me by deciding not even to greet me when we see each other. I thought I found someone I can talk to but I guess I was wrong’.
ME: ‘You haven’t answered my question. WHY didn’t you reply to the last text I sent you on the 18th March’?
JOHN: ‘I don’t even know what you are referring to. It is more than 4 months ago. I never had anything negative about you. That is the most important thing to me. I am at home now’.
ME: The last text I sent, on 18th March, was ‘Are you still on analgesics? I hope you’re feeling a bit better’. WHY didn’t you reply?
JOHN: ‘Call if you want to talk. Don’t know honestly that I didn’t reply. You just don’t know me. You could have asked me when you see me in the office, or come to my office or call to talk to me rather than mentioning it after 4 months [3 ½ months]’.
ME: ‘You just don’t know me, or how agonisingly difficult I find it to confront a guy who has hurt me. Given that you are ALWAYS on your phone, I find it hard to believe you could just ignore a message & not realise that you hadn’t replied. That happened 3 times. How could I open my heart in conversation to someone I couldn’t trust to me honest with me? I thought I found someone I can talk to but I guess I was wrong’.
JOHN: ‘That is fine. Misunderstandings happen. I wish you well. I am sorry if I caused you any pain’.
ME: ‘The misunderstanding between us is not fine. We were supposed to go for a drink together in mid-late March. I can’t help thinking that, if you really enjoyed talking to me & GENUINELY wanted to be friends, you would have kept up the text message ‘dialogue’ between us instead of cutting it short by “not seeing” my last text. Also, I think if you’d really wanted to go for a drink you would have texted me/pursued me somehow. You said the best way to get to know you was to give you time & space. I gave you both, in abundance, from my heart, & all you’ve done is make me feel HURT, REJECTED & like someone who you just couldn’t be bothered with. I felt like getting to know each other well could have been an enriching, life-enhancing experience & I’m DEEPLY SAD that that didn’t happen’.
JOHN: ‘You have no idea how much I cared and still care about you. It pains me to see you avoid me. I am a very simple person. When you didn’t want to say hi to me I kept my distance considering that we work together. You made me feel that I am bothering you. In any case I am the same person you talked to months back. Nothing changed. Let us continue the discussion some other time. I am a little tired now. Enjoy your evening’.
ME: How can I enjoy my evening when I can’t stop crying?! 🙁 If you care about me, WHY didn’t you contact me in late March to arrange a drink (after I’d made it very clear, in the heartfelt email I’d sent in early March, how much I wanted to be friends with you)? THAT’S why I started avoiding you! If you’re a simple person, why can’t you do something as basic as replying to a text message? I kept my distance after you stopped communicating with me. – I assumed that, if I contacted you, I’d be bothering you. I imagined it was a relief & a convenience to you when I ‘got the message’ that you had lost interest in spending any time with me or getting to know me better. I’m also tired – in fact, I am emotionally exhausted!
JOHN: ‘I care about you. Never changed. Let us forget the past. We live now. I am sorry for every misunderstanding. Please take it easy and be forgiving’.
ME: ‘I live life with intense passion, & I do not take anything easy – sipping wine, enjoying delicious food or a beautiful view are all things (among many others!) that I do with full emotion. What do we do now then? Every time I’ve forgiven you for hurting or confusing me I’ve ended up regretting it. You let me down over going hiking before Christmas, being untruthful about your (ex)-fiancée in New York, not replying to texts, meeting friends for dinner when we were supposed to meet between Xmas & New Year, AND texting me the Sun. eve. when we were supposed to meet before your contract break to say we couldn’t meet as promised! If you care about me, does that mean you have an interest in who I am & would even want to spend some of your precious time with me? I don’t understand you 🙁 ‘.
JOHN: ‘I think we are on the same page. We just failed to communicate well with each other. I do care about you a lot and respect your friendship. That is all I can say. Please don’t be sad. Please. All is well’.
JOHN: ‘And don’t call me a liar. That is not me at all. It diminish me. If I am that small, you won’t even bother to talk to me. Write long text. I am going to sleep now unless…’ [Clear booty call, which I ignored! The text message exchange continued, with me asking John about why he is leaving].
Unsurprisingly, John did not want to meet up for a drink before he left Switzerland! In the end, before he left, I took a card to his office (before I went on holiday) telling him how much our friendship had meant to me (which was a lot), with a memory stick containing a Powerpoint presentation which I made with photos of bars we’d been to together, inspirational quotes and good wishes.
After that we had the following text message exchange:
JOHN: ‘Tears and smile. Thank you. You are very special’.
ME: ‘Did you look at the memory stick?’
JOHN: ‘I did. I am speechless. Grateful to have met you. We had a wonderful time’.
I do feel some relief that John is no longer physically at work or in Switzerland, so I’m not now worried about just bumping into him randomly when my defences are down or when I feel bad about how I look. I have been reading ‘Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl’ (which truly is an amazing book!) and looking through the empowering and calming quotes on the ‘Baggage Reclaim’ Facebook site since last December. However, it is SO DIFFICULT for me to not blame myself entirely for things not blossoming more between John and I. I do feel that he genuinely thought that he could count on me as a friend, and that I hurt him and let him down deeply. Then again, I do suffer from low self-esteem and comparing myself to Miss New York (whoever she is), and imagining what she is like, is incredibly destructive and the last thing on earth that I need!
Having waited 3 years from 2011-2014 until if/when a romance happened naturally between a guy and I, I cannot help feeling like I have totally failed, and as if I have (yet again) just attracted a confusing, unhealthy, dissatisfying relationship. As soon as John started mentioning Miss New York last December I had alarm bells ringing and although, in my heart, I know I was right to listen to my instinct I still feel as if I overreacted and have just been weak and immature. I cannot forgive myself for hurting him. Am I so wrong to want to know that a guy has TOTALLY finished with someone else before I enjoy physical intimacy with him? I feel that, if I had somehow managed to be a ‘cool’, confident, easygoing girl who wasn’t phased by the lack of reply to a text message, John and I might have carried on getting to know each other better. Also I think that, when he first told me about Miss New York, he probably hoped I would offer support, understanding and friendship but, instead, I was shocked – it was too late to “just” be friends then, as we’d already kissed a lot and had established strong sexual attraction. What a mess!
Miffy,
There’s no mess there. He’s out of your life and that’s a good thing. He’s just a user and not worth your time.
Best thing to do is work on yourself so you stop settling. This guy will likely reappear when the woman he’s with currently catches him cheating on her. Maintain no contact, now and whenever he tries to reel you back in.
@miffy;
‘if/when things really evolved between us, he’d like me to know him very well’ – FUTURE FAKER [hes indicating that something could happen, but its in the future, and he’d like to take his sweet time getting there so you should know him well]
‘casually dropped into the conversation that he’d been dating a girl last year’ which it turns out is his fiancé – DRIP FEEDING TRUTH
‘After the cinema John and I got very close physically for the first time’ — WHAT?!
Miffy, I dont see this as ‘women who love too much’ – I havent read the book. I dont know if that is how you see yourself. This is not love. You dont and can’t love him in a short time with not much to go on. He might well be a lousy guy, stringing you along while he has a fiancé, but you were there too, a participant. And you have prolonged your agony by those long emails which have only lengthened the time to heal.
I think he’s a user, and I think he used you because you are I’d like to say too trusting, but that is not a good thing (I feel that ‘women who love too much’ is perhaps your way to explaining what you do as almost a good thing?? or as something that you just are and cannot change). Its also possible that what I really mean is naive, and its also possible that what I really mean is you are deceiving yourself. You slept with him after finding out he’s attached – you are not the first person to do so and won’t be the last so no need to beat yourself up about whats past. BUT you still dont see it as fully problematic, since there was ‘attraction’ and you wonder how you hurt him (!!!!) and whether that one text message broke his flower spun glass ego.
So — thats what I think. I think you feel a little silly and instead of backing off and saying ‘whoa THAT was a mistake’ and moving on, you are feeling angry and writing angry emails since it lets you behave like this was really important and a REAL relationship so you dont have to confront that you invested too much meaning too soon. You’re hanging on and wondering if you could have had more so it lets you behave like there was ever a possibility which there wasn’t because it justifies your behavior.
You need to be ready to let go, which requires taking responsibility, moving on, learning the lessons and most importantly — not lying to yourself.
The question is – how does one take responsibility without blaming oneself. I think this is why we keep thinking about that one text, and whether that one comma was in the wrong place and as a result this man has taken away the glorious future he promised you and given it to his fiancé that he knew before you came on the scene. Have a sense of humor about this, or even black humor; i did this with the ex-EU now happily coupled with another girl that I have to see him with – sometimes you just like an a&&hole and thats okay, it takes you a while to figure it out and then we get wise and we move on with our dignity.
Cheers Miffy, figure out how to forgive yourself for this. Its not him, its about you; you’re unhappy with yourself that you made these mistakes and the only way out of that is to forgive yourself, learn the lessons and not blame. Responsibility without blame. Its hard but worth it.
I see so many lessons here;
dont date a guy that future fakes and drip feeds
dont date someone with a gf / fiancé
dont dates someone that travels a lot AND has a gf / fiancé
dont write long angry emails to a nobody
dont make relationships even more serious AFTEr hearing someone has a gf/fiance
dont believe that healthy people will cut you off for one lousy text (unless you know you curse at them or something – then its on you).
Its when you’re ready to figure out what YOU did in this process that you will start healing.
Miffy, you been played, girl. This man – what’s his name..?..John?…he is playing you like the fisherman of hearts that he is. All he had to do was “hint” at a relationship, and he let your wishes/hopes/dreams fill in the blanks. Then he backs off, and you blame yourself for hurting him. OMG.
He’s a PLAYER, girl. He likes to play with women’s hearts. Get off of his football field NOW.
He is a drama KING. Sounds like he has multiple drama threads going with many women.
He will never be anyone’s one-and-only. Should he ever marry, that will be a lonely marriage if the woman craves a sense of emotional security in a relationship, because he’ll pull the rug out from under her every time. Even if he doesn’t divorce her, he’ll always make her feel like she’s in competition for his time.
Please, let this man go.
Miffy,
I sense the pain in what you’ve written. I know what you mean about taking the time to read, learn, grow, and make good decisions. To finally find the Best Guy Ever. This time, we’ll get it right! Because we KNOW what we’re looking for. We’re being careful, considerate, thoughtful, and caring while looking for the same.
But as was pointed out to me here, sometimes we can do all the ‘right’ things and end up in the wrong relationship. Because we didn’t know. You didn’t know about Miss NY. He withheld that. He was not honest about her or details of that relationship. Lies by omission. MJ didn’t know what was happening behind her back. I didn’t know I was about to be chopped without warning.
You TRIED SO HARD to get the truth. To get answers. It reminded me of myself, BEGGING to know. …Just PLEASE please please tell me why you promised these things to me. How could you SAY such wonderful things to me and now never want to see me again?…
But they WON’T say because the truth would reveal more lies. So they gaslight and pretend to forget. They minimize and accuse US of being mean to them. Impression management, because no matter WHAT, they will maintain that stellar image. They will NOT admit to mistreatment. They believe they are perpetually good and kind and we just don’t know them well enough. They will NEVER admit to misleading us.
John told you: ‘Grateful to have met you. We had a wonderful time’.
BGE told me: ‘You’ve been great. I will value the time we spent together.’
You tried, and he was dismissive and evasive. It feels agonizing, so you try HARDER. Still, no answers. We keep pressing and get nothing accept the feeling that we pushed them away. I poured it all out too. I explained exactly what I meant. What I hoped for. How hurt I was. How much I cared. No ppt, but I detailed all my memories and future promises he’d made, recalling the most wonderful, attentive, caring man I’d ever known. And this most wonderful, attentive, caring man disappeared forever, never to be seen or heard from again.
You did not fail, and you did not hurt him. He hurt you by not being honest. You gave him more of yourself than he deserved. You did nothing wrong. You were honest, caring, and genuine. You sought the truth. YOU DID NOTHING WRONG.
Miffy,
I was rolling my eyes as i read your post. Just as clowns wear circus clothes, ASSclowns use tried and true statements to reel you in. In my situation I didnt realize it until he repeated exactly the same statements at the end of his emails to me. Its kind of a sales pitch and its meaningless. The following statements were used when i nailed him and it was obvious he was full of shit in the same context you described.
“i do care about yoy, I do care deeply about you. Or ….I will always wonder how you are doing, or …you have shown me so much ……
“CARE”……just add “don’t” in frontof. It. Hes not the only one to use the care card. Its future faking. He wants. You tot hink “oh wow he cares about me, that mens something special… how many people in your life that you KNOW love you or want whats Best for you say that?
Oops sorry for spelling, there is a lot of lag when i type in comments.
Freedme, I totally agree that it’s an empty sales pitch. I shivered when I read that correspondence. Some of John’s answers are word by word the same ones I used to get.
As a person who’d been there (in my case no vomiting but curled up on my floor crying unable to utter a word as he told me he was going to sleep and I need to “chill”), I have to point out that the fact that we agonize so much about those text messages and their WORDS is because there is ZERO action from these people.
When you’re with someone who’s fully in, both feet and head too, they would never ever leave you in any doubt about their interest or commitment to the relationship as expressed in their CONSISTENT ACTIONS.
I’ve had the joy (heavy sarcasm here) of having the ex get together with someone I thought was at least a casual friend, four months after he dumped me. They didn’t tell me for another three months. I felt a pretty wild mix of emotions when I found out. I was worried for her, because by that time I’d moved past all the brainwashing and gaslighting that existed in my past relationship, and had fully realized what a lousy partner my ex was. But I would be lying if I said I didn’t have that deep underlying fear that he’d be the perfect partner with her that he wasn’t with me and that it’d be somehow my fault, and will somehow prove it to the world that I’m lacking as a human being. (Some of his parting words to me actually were along the lines of “I hope to find a woman that will help me overcome my flaws”, which I apparently hadn’t.) I tried to stay in contact with her so she’d have someone to turn to if he showed his real face with her like he had with me. That didn’t work out. So I’ve left these two to enjoy each other’s company and do not plan on ever again contacting either of them or returning contact. Who knows, maybe they do deserve each other. TBH I didn’t know her that well. Do I sometimes get disturbing visuals of our former group of friends sitting around at one of their get-togethers and telling my ex, Wow you two are so good together! She’s the perfect woman for you! Not like that other bitch you used to bring around here! – yes, guilty as charged, I do. But these people are all in my past. They chose not to remain in my present. So I don’t really care how they remember me or whether they compare me to the new woman behind my back. My ex would not fare terribly well in a comparison with my current partner, either!
But yeah, it sucks. It only took me a couple of months to mourn the lost relationship, but way over a year to mourn all the friendships I’d lost when he walked out and made sure I wasn’t welcome in his community any longer. Him getting together with the one woman I was sure I’d stay friends with, felt like the last parting blow he’d given me, because maybe he wondered if getting dumped out of the blue hadn’t maybe hurt me as much as he wanted. Like a killer in an action movie who gives you one last shot in the head to make sure you’re really dead.
Speaking of trips down memory lane with EUMs, I find that mine crosses my path from time to time and I am realizing that, now that the relationship is done and my healing is underway, No Contact did its wonderful work – I am now turning my attention to forgiveness.
There are a few entries on BR about forgiveness and they have been very helpful. I feel this is my final step in really putting this behind me – and no longer feeling afraid of running into him (which will happen).
Recently, I realized that, when I put my boundaries down, they were done with anger/resentment (understandable). I get why it’s hard to let it go… that feeling of, if I let go of the anger, am I undo-ing the boundaries? The answer is no but of course that’s easier said than done. I am learning how to keep the boundaries and let go of the anger. I am reminding myself, just because I no longer hold onto the anger/pain/bitterness doesn’t mean anything changes in terms of my connection with him. No re-friending on FB or any of that… but I can be free of my feelings of betrayal, that he stole my time/attention, etc.
This is a tool I am using and I am finding it to be so helpful:
http://www.people.vcu.edu/~eworth/
I use the secular version of the workbook and man, it is so helpful. It’s designed for group exercises but I do them on my own and I’ve found them to be tremendously useful in understanding what forgiveness means and how to protect myself in the future without holding onto the bitterness. I share it in case others find it helpful as well. xoxo
THEY DON’T CHANGE. EVER.
And they are all the same. None of them are the special handsome, delicate flowers they pretend to be. They’re emotionally checked out. They live in La La Land wasting their lives and everyone else’s that takes their bs at face value.
IF YOU MEET A MAN LIKE THIS, RUN LIKE HELL.
And isn’t it sad that culture trains us to initially check ourselves when males have shady behavior toward us? We’re taught to put on the very best circus show to “snag” & “keep” a male. As if that is all we are good for.
I love what you do Nat. I am who I am supposed to be b/c of BR. This blog has been the single strongest influence in my adult life and I have became such a better person for it.
Women can waster months and years of their life on these asshats. We have been socialized to do it, and requires a lot of retraining our hearts and our brains to care more about ourselves than we do them. If you are waiting for him to change, you will be waiting a VERY long time. He won’t. It is that simple, and it has nothing to do with you. While we women are not perfect and have our own stuff to deal with, staying with an EU is madness! It is like being stuck in the mud with your car – you keep spinning the wheels as you gun it thinking you are going to break free. Nope, you sink in deeper and get stuck even more. Instead, leave the car where it is (your relationship) open the door, get out take the keys and walk away!
The last line in this article is EXACTLY the only truth we EVER need to know.
Not if we love him, not if he is pretty, not if he sometimes does nice things, not anything about HIM at all. Only one thing –
HOW DO WE FEEL WHEN WE ARE WITH HIM? THAT IS IT. Period. End of story.
If we do not feel happy, safe, loved respected and if we do not trust him
then it’s time to go. Our feelings are what is important. You have this one precious life and it needs to be lived for us not some EU who will never change. Natalie’s article is spot on. Been there done that, more than once and I think I am finally over the propensity to do it again. How do I know?
It’s all those red flags she talks about. When you learn to listen to your inner voice – that is all it takes to know something isn’t right. don’t even let him or anyone else talk to out of it. What got me the last time was a guy who everyone else adored, his family, and every one of my friends thought he was great. Ha! He was to THEM. But not to me. Privately he was EU, neglectful,
passive/aggressive, hot/cold, and the sex stopped soon after I married him.
Never been so miserable in all my life. Solution – Bye bye……
MaggieMay,
You said, “If we do not feel happy, safe, loved respected and if we do not trust him
then it’s time to go.”
This is a great one line mantra to memorize. AND follow.
Selkie-
Trust for me is THE defining thing. The reason we do not feel safe or respected or happy, etc. is usually that we do not trust him.
If we trust him, the other things follow. Just my two cents girl.
Peace.
Omg Maggiemay, thst`s EXACTLY the metaphor I used last year telling him how I felt during one of the many breakups I initiated with my EUM , that of a car being stuck in the mud, spinning and spinning wheels, and finally getting out to walk ! thanks for reminding me !
Amen, Maggiemay.
Peanut,
You are 100% correct about our culture teaching us to put on the best show to snag and keep a man. If you walk down the aisle of any store and read the cover of women’s magazines they all have headlines about what you need to do to keep your man (What men Think-What Men WANT -who gives a sh$$).
I bought into it. I kept myself looking magazine photo ready for every date. My home was always immaculate (sign of a woman who knows how to -keep a home like Martha Stewart). I learned to cook some of the best meals and the most delicious cakes he died for. I had ALL bases covered. All my hard work and love for him paid off (so I thought). He proposed and then cheated. Devastated. I am so glad I ended it! Out here now traveling alone and trying to enjoy my new life. I gave my BEST. His diabolical behavior has nothing to do with me. I am more than good enough.
You said they don’t ever change. You are probably right. As I read stories on BR I drew the same conclusion. I thought this crappy behavior was limited to younger men and that maybe older men didn’t act this stupid. But BR stories have shown me that STUPID has no age limit. Liars and cheaters even in 40’s, 50’s and 60’s dear God when does it stop. One foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel-still acting a complete ass.
@Tosha said: I started blaming myself trying to figure out what’s wrong with me? Why didn’t he want to spend time Saturday or Sunday like we have done in the past? I keep blaming it on other women are better in bed, cook better or he may feel they are better mothers. (so sad-I can relate-what did I do wrong?)
It’s not YOU. Some of these men just want new a$$. They have no desire to change that habit. They like trying out new women like I try out a new hair stylist. Let me see how she does me (lol). I read a sad story on the internet today. A lady caught her boyfriend cheating and got angry and did something the led to her losing her job. SAD. She should have walked away from that garbage. Now, her future is in question for sure.
@Demke you have beautifully summarized what happens when they exit. You said:
Our lives are so wrapped up in ‘them’ that even when they disappear…. They’re more in our minds than ever. It’s like being in a prison that we’ve created. An addiction. An obsession to being miserable and fixated on ‘bad’, not the good that’s out there. (OMG)
Yep I have had on my little orange jump suit. I imprisoned myself trying to figure out why he did this shi$. We all question ourselves when someone lies and cheats. It is so humiliating. You start to examine everything about yourself. No their behavior is shady and they just need to be left alone. He can kiss my a$$. They have no place in your life. Each day I try to find something good to focus on. The damage these monsters do with their lies and deception is heart breaking. It leaves you unsure of who you can EVER trust again.
Reading BR helps me understand that so many women have to deal with nonsense. Sadly, I have learned reading BR that even mature men are running games. They need to stop the foolishness.
I refuse to allow a liar and cheat destroy my HOPE for a better future. It takes time to HEAL. I am taking my orange jump suit off and I am going to give it my all to LIVE again to the fullest. Demke you are SO right we need to fixate on the good that is out here and not the misery. It is hard but I am gonna give it a shot.
Natalie THANK YOU for BR.
MJ
MJ,
Your last paragraph….Yaaaayyyyy! Thats a great mindset.
Hi Selkie,
Did I miss the update on your coffee date? How did it go? will there be more dates? Smile.
MJ
MJ,
Well said! I didn’t post my last response to you because it was too depressing, but I read about you planning to reconnect with your traveling friend. I feel power and positivity in your writing here!
Mary Jane,
They don’t stop. They don’t change. A couple of my aunts date men in their 50s who are horrid. (But for sad reasons my aunts bend over backwards for these goons.)
Society is so strange in regard to women. I used to try and be whatever I thought the man I was dating wanted. (I was never able to influence them in the way I wanted nor did I ever gain the control I wanted with them with this.) Currently I do not care how men perceive me. (I’m thirty & like elderly lady shoes — so I wear them!) I do exactly what I want to nourish me. & I must say I never have a shortage of males interested. But I have a pretty rad career and spend most of my time on that and honestly I am having way too much fun being single and getting to know me.
Peanut,
I just died laughing SO HARD when I read about you with your little elderly lady shoes. I bet they are really comfy. I am still adjusting to being single. You sound like you are having the time of your life. I am happy for you keep living it up.
You sound so comfortable in your skin. It has to be good not to care what men think. I can almost see you with the little pair of elderly shoes on just kicked back enjoying yourself.
Your story about your grandfather is really something. This validates your theory. They will NEVER change. Repeat after me they will never change. Enjoy your own life now.
Question- What caused you to just make this major shift and decide it was fine to be alone-happily single?
MJ
There are good, assertive, and available men. Age is not a determiner of character in grown men. (Like from adulthood on.) Actions are the determiner of character. Basically how a person treats themselves, those around them and of course you. You have to be available yourself before you will be in a relationship with a good man. Awful men serve as a distraction to fallback girls as these women (I used to be one) do not want to be vulnerable and risk themselves in honest, authentic caring relationships.
I dated this guy I met online for about a month or so. Charming fellow, witty, funny, lost his job early in our pseudo-relationship but aside from cancelling out on plans because of being financially challenged (he got laid off about a week after our first date) it wasn’t so bad since he seemed pretty diligent with sending out his CV to get a job (and he’d even say that he can’t wait to get a new job so he could “spoil” me – as if I needed spoiling but what the hell, I thought it was cute).
He blew in real hot in the beginning, but as the weeks went on things have been rather… inconsistent. He’d still be attentive when we’re together, but texts start losing their cutesy nature (which wasn’t really an issue though it was… weird) but every now and then he’d start flirting really heavily. When I noticed that there seemed to be a pattern, I planned to bring it up next time we were together so we could talk about it personally and not through text.
The day we’re supposed to meet, though, I somehow had a feeling that he’s going to flake again, and true enough, he did. But not because he’s broke or he suddenly had errands to run: out of the blue, he tells me – via text – that there was someone else over the weekend and that he refuses to lie by omission. The very same weekend he said he unfortunately had plans and apologized for unintentionally “being clandestine”. Right. Okay. When I asked him what else he’d been lying to me about he said just that one because he would never lie to me (pfft, right) and when I asked why it happened he simply said that he got drunk. Come on, I wasn’t born yesterday! Told him to call me because I’d rather not text about it but he said he can’t at that moment and that we’d talk about it later.
Later turned out to be much, much, much later. I rang him up because it was getting late and I wanted to just get it over with, but he never picked up and instead texts me hours later with no apologies whatsoever, asking if he can call me up.
As if.
So I ignored that text and walked away. I’ve absolutely no time for people who claim to be committed in getting to know me/building something with me but are very inconsiderate of my time, will see/sleep with other people and still have the gall to think they’re doing me a favor by being honest about it. Please.
It stung, to be honest, but I’d rather that I found out early on instead of dragging it out and trying to reconcile how he was at the start and the latest revelation. The other woman or whoever other woman he has can have him.
Nope,
Inconspicuous behaviour is definitely a front to the more I know I’m going to waste your time here. These types must have scores of females on the side to be able to be so come-and-go when it pleases hence the showing at least of some commitment is truly lacking (by choice no doubt).
The sting is the lesson learned so welcome it as your blessing in disguise (pour some niceness on sting to bring back redirection), and nice to read the no-nonsense and sureness of you re the type dated.
Stay left as Nat says.
I keep rereading and rereading and coming back to this post.
I know I have said many times these men do not change and to further get my point across (it took me 30 yrs to accept this about men), as much as I love my grandfather, he, in his nineties, still belittles my grandmother and treats her with disdain. They have been married 60 yrs and nothing I mean NOTHING has changed since they started dating. They had a family which only served to add to the chaos and pain. You do not want to be in your 70s with a man who does not value you. Trust me on this. Unavailable men do not change for anyone, not even themselves.
I’m sorry to hear that.
It kinda makes you wonder how much someone would tolerate or sacrifice to keep a relationship going. It’s like “but that’s just how he/she is, I’ve learned to deal with it,” or “he/she will improve in time,” at the expense of your own happiness and peace of mind.
Natalie,
It’s way late here in the States and I *should* be getting some much-needed rest for tomorrow, but instead I’m laying in bed reading your latest post and chuckling (you know that deep, tummy chuckle you do with close girlfriends when you recount all the men you’ve dated from Douchebagistan? Lol.) Can you please work on being less clever so that I can get some shut-eye already? ????
Nope,
He texted you to ask if he could call?!?!? Run run run. You are not missing out by not being with him as that is a headache and a half — a migraine actually. This guy is a joke.
Nope,
Once you have actually moved on this guy might try and slither his way back into your life. (They can instantly smell indifference.) Do not let him in — at all. He will just waste more of your time. This guy does not care about people or commitment; he cares about his ego and nothing else. Classic. If you never hear from him again, you are one of the luckiest women on the planet.
Nice to know I am not the only that has felt this way. You ladies are an inspiration to me finding my way back to me.
I’ve always been a huge believer in the adage that “actions speak louder than words.” And…”if it’s not a YES, it’s a NO. Those two sayings can keep us out of trouble with men who like to talk about sh**t, take no actions to show us they’re serious, lie (either overtly or by omission), show up on their terms, etc. I could go on and on about my experiences with men who are EU and Narcs. IT’S ALWAYS ABOUT THEM…FIRST. AND THEY WILL NEVER CHANGE.
If we ladies can remember those facts about EU men (ACs and Narcs), we will save ourselves a LOT of heartaches. Going NO CONTACT with these dysfunctional man-boys is the only way to free yourself so you can spend more quality time with YOU.
Amen, Cuedin !
be careful – actions don’t necessarily speak louder than words. consistency is the key. i’ve got quite a lot of experiences with the guys who were careful with words but behaved lovingly, considerately, no lying or cheating … guess what – i got f****d up the same way as all the rest of you did. i’m still convinced that many of my exs loved me but since they weren’t able to admit it to themselves, they were still EUMs and ultimately behaved like ones. what matters is consistency, the match between what people say and what people do (and both must match), consistency in behaviour, no hot cold hot cold. etc.
Yes the ‘actions over words’ thing can be misleading with the really sneaky type. A particular guy was after me but turns out he had a girlfriend I didn’t know about. However there’d be no way she could’ve suspected his focus wasn’t completely on her for the first six months of their relationship (he was after me behind her back from the very beginning of things between them) as I’ve seen evidence on Facebook that he had been setting up lovely dates, having a great time on them (all grins and laughing/taking selfies of the two of them), and introducing her to his family and friends. On the other hand, I have no way of knowing whether after a while he started blowing hot and cold with her or the kind of things he’s saying to her. I’d guess there are red flags she hasn’t taken note of in that regard as I did notice he said something that to me seemed quite dismissive/unsupportive on her FB page after only a few months together.
Also sometimes you *assume* a person hasn’t lied/cheated but really you’re just hoping they’ve haven’t as some people are so two-faced that you have to literally turn into a female version of Sherlock to get to the truth. I actually find it quite sinister that this girl would swear blind she has a trustworthy boyfriend but I know different. Also she seems rather naive if you ask me – I could see from her FB page that she had him up on a pedestal and was glorifying him from the beginning and I don’t do that with men.
I agree completely!
My reply above was to Mephista’s post.
What a terrific post Mary Jane! Being in a toxic emotional relationship for a long long time gradually screwed up my self esteem and distorted my thinking. You describe it as a prison…and I became acculturated to it. I am totally committed to my new life but it is hard work to reconstruct a life and it is often lonely and exhausting. I am dreading hearing in some informal way that he is dating or has a steady girlfriend. I cannot stand the man so it is not that I miss him or want him back at ALL but that EUMS by their very nature seem to have it so easy while I have a lot of grief and multiple losses still to process.
Hi espresso,
I agree it is hard to start a new life. You were married so I am sure you have the grieve the end of your marriage. I understand your thinking about him having it easy to start over. My fiancé was cheating so when I dumped him -I am sure all he did was continue sleeping with the person who was allowing him to give her crumbs at the hotel. It takes time to build emotional ties with someone. That cant be rushed. Try to put the thoughts out of your mind about what he is doing. That is what I m doing and it is not easy.
I don’t want him back. I would just like new friendships. But as you said it takes work to rebuild. I am just taking baby steps and starting over. I am going to be careful about who I allow in my life. I should set up a stand at the end of my block and take applications for new friends (lol). It just takes time.
MJ
@Peanut:
(Thank you for your reply!)
WTF, right? I wanted to talk so I could at least understand why he would suddenly confess (because things just weren’t making sense and I was pretty sure that it’s more than just not wanting to lie to me), then I stopped and asked my self if knowing his reasons would change the fact that whatever trust and respect I had in him had immediately dropped to zero. I go back to his words and tried matching them up with what I’ve seen as we went along and there’s nothing there that I can work with. How he acted also cemented the fact that despite claims that he’s more concerned about my happiness, everything’s really been all about him.
Granted, I briefly wondered what the other woman was like, but I’ve never been the type to think “Oh, competition, eh?” and throw myself harder at the guy. It’s actually the opposite: if you’re not a 100% in this, I walk. Not playing that game. If they work out or he suddenly, magically changed for her, then great. I seriously doubt it, though, since he seems so fixed in his ways that whoever the next victim is will just be another name in his list of “crazy” ex’s.
He never tried reaching out after I ignored that text, which is very fortunate. He was such a waste of time, and I’m just glad that he showed his true colors so early on.
@Tosha:
I feel the same! BR has been my go-to ever since my first ever heartbreak years ago and I’ve lurked in this blog ever since. I definitely learned a lot from Natalie and the rest of the community over the years, and continue to do so in every post/comment.
@Nope; you rock! You own only your part and not the other person’s part – that is an important skill to have.
Can someone please hit me on the head with a brick? Long story short just out from a 4 month very long distance relationship. During this period we were in each other’s company for 3 weeks total at 3 different times. Ofcourse through email & phone.
He is definitely an AC and some EUM issues as well. We had good chemistry. But he broke up past weekend with excuse that he cant do long distance, altho he who said marriage and blah blah blah. It has to do with his EU issues as sometimes he would completely blank out.
I am not so much emotionally effected , but maybe ego wise. I am fantasizing what I would say to him if he calls or email. So stupid. We dont have same social circles or not even connected via social media ( I did that intentionally from the start). Why am I agonizing over him when clearly he does not know what he wants and has jumped right back into dating, sure to repeat the cycle all over again. I also fantasize how I will guide him to improve his spiritual side. Why am I doing this to myself?
@Wiser; thoughts are thoughts, just dont actually call him, give him a piece of your mind, or help his spiritual side (!!). Also its possible he just changed his mind, thats okay, people changing their mind is allowed. Just keep your dignity and dont engage with him even if he tries. chapter closed. It sounds like you did things the way felt right to you, it didn’t work out, was long distance, probably not enough potential. Thats life, its not even a learning experience though you could learn from it; it just was something that happened.
Look at the good stuff; you put yourself out there (though with a slightly EU relationship since LD), you aren’t calling and threatening and yelling at him, you’re not slipping into a depression, and you’ve disengaged at least in reality if not thoughts. Thats winning!!
Wiser – I get it.
…because we know (and they often TELL us) that they’re not happy the way they are right now (haven’t been for a long time in most cases). And it seems so simple to us: we gather all this data about them, what happened to them… and we sit and think really hard about it and come up with our “solution” – and it’s so seductive because we see our plan as not just turning their life around but making them into someone good enough for us! It seems so simple and why don’t they see it and if they could just…
Oh, stop the madness! They have to do their own homework and we deserve men who have worked on their own shit. This is NOT your job. The consequences of him not dealing with his shit are, he gets to jump back onto the merry-go-round of pain and he is not worthy of your time/company (and he knows it) – so let him waste some other person’s time with this. He doesn’t respect himself – this is why his life is a mess. You deserve someone who has higher standards for his life and who has taken the steps to make that life a reality NOW. There’s my brick, thrown with love and compassion for your good heart… turn that love and concern you have for him onto YOU. xoxo
Wiser,
i sync between social engineering and just plain old nature, we are programmed to feel this way. and as women of a certain age,that is in our late twenties thirties forties fifties and sixties, of course we want “it” to happen for us! the only caveat to that is that we go in meeting every guy trying to make him a fit and make our selves fit as Nat says. in my humble opinion, I think that we women are better served to take a why should I even remember your name, let alone see you again type attitude. one thing about your situation, is that long distance just sucks. It is hard to get any real traction or momentum and I find it that is what developing a relationship counts on. getting some initial traction and momentum and it is damn near impossible to do that long distance. now in terms of the guys saying that distance was an issue, one of two things could have happened. Number one he could have just use the distance as an a ready made “out”, a built-in reason to keep it temporary and not too close. or number 2 he could have initially thought that he could hack the distance but is now feeling differently.and like Suki said that’s okay. I just think that the long distance thing upon first meeting just like dating a man who lost a job, who is moving, who has just moved into town, who is changing careers,or who is in some sort of transition of any sort is not a good idea. and just think about it do you really want a long distance relationship for yourself? we women want to nest and belong so badly that sometimes we forget to ask ourselves is this even practical. as far is wanting to help improve his spiritual side, sounds like something that you want more than he did. as far as him mentioning marriage, that’s a totally different ball game than him actually asking to marry you. However I am NOT making excuses for his future fakery. I think with this situation you can be thankful that you got an answer to your question perhaps before you even knew what it was or you were able to ask it. a man who is able to walk away from you is not your guy!you so do not want a man who is able to walk away from you! the reasons don’t matter!
@wiser:
-hits you with a brick-
I understand what you mean about you ego taking a hit, but you have to step back and remind yourself that his issues and how he deals with them is all about him. They’re something he’ll have to work on by himself because guys like him? They will not change until they acknowledge their problem and decide they want to change for the better. There’s just no helping them and you’ll be wasting your time trying to.
Like you, I tend to think up scenarios and what I would say, but you know what? These guys, these types of people, don’t deserve our words, our time or our effort. Why expend energy on someone who does not respext or care for us and adds no value whatsoever to our lives?
If there’s anything they deserve, it’s NC.
@NL and friends,
Why do we feel we are special and the BS we see AC do to others will not happen to us? Why we think we are exceptions.
Many times I heard AC talk negatively about his ex, why I didnt think he can do the same for me?
Wiser, I bet my EUM does tell some tale of woe about me to whoever will listen now. I can barely imagine what he says though. “She wouldn’t tolerate my nonsense and she left me, boo hoo?” I mean, seriously. I don’t see how he could spin this to make himself seem like the victim…
We think we’re the exception because WE are making an exception for them. I gave him a lot of margin to “heal” and “grow” and “be better” and he was constantly assuring me he was but his behavior didn’t change. In other areas of my life, I would not put up with this sort of stuff (if my cable company kept telling me they were gonna fix poor reception but never did, I’d stop paying them and get my cable somewhere else).
Because I cared, because I saw potential, because I knew he could be better… I made an exception. And I expected him to return the favor. “You’re not going to use my time/attention to feed your ego. You’re not going to play games with scheduling quality time. You’re not going to use me for sexual attention if you have no intention of being in a relationship with me. I mean, I hear you say things that lead me to believe you’ve done that with other, lesser quality women who aren’t me… but that was then and this is now and you would not dare do these things with me. Because I am special. Because I am not them and you know better. Right? RIGHT?” This was seriously my thought process. I was delusional. lol
I think it’s part of the “emotional debt” we feel when it’s clear it’s not working out. We want them to change, we want them to make us their exception because that validates that we were right to choose them, we were right to “invest” in them and now we shall get our much-deserved reward! Nuh-uh. Ain’t gonna happen. Take your treasure chest of emotional gold and protect it, pour it all over yourself. It’s wasted on him.
wise, I also think that we think will be the exception because we say to ourselves oh I won’t give him a reason for him to do that to me. Without ever realizing that it was never about us or anyone else making him do something or giving him a reason to do something or provoking him to do something, it was all about who he is and how he handles things. It is simply what he does.
“Without ever realizing that it was never about us or anyone else making him do something or giving him a reason to do something or provoking him to do something, it was all about who he is and how he handles things. It is simply what he does.”
I think this is key. It’s not your fault, it has nothing to do with you. This person was like this before you showed up. I think many of us take it personally because we were taught that it was our job (responsibility) to caretake for others emotions/feelings/well-being. So when they choose to react/respond in unhealthy ways we think we somehow failed in our job(responsibility) to make it work (fix/save/rescue/make it ‘right’). We blame ourselves for something we have absolutely no control/power over – someone else’s choices/thoughts/behavior. It’s self defeating/self sabotaging behavior that keeps us stuck with unhealthy people.
It also batters our self-esteem which fuels the feelings of lack and desperation…and the cycle repeats.
Hi Wiser,
Because we have worked so hard and invested so much, and we are soooo ready to finally find the right guy. One really wonderful man surely exists. He HAS to. As an intelligent woman once wrote to me (and that would be YOU):
“I’ve finally learned that sometimes you can do everything right and it still doesn’t work out”
But deep down, of course we want it to work out. THIS TIME we got it REALLY REALLY right. And maybe we did. But THEY DIDN’T. And of COURSE we’re different than the exes. We’re not crazy, shallow, mean-spirited, lying, selfish people. We’re bringing our best selves to these men. THIS TIME the dynamics are right. THIS time we are prepared. THIS TIME it will be for real. THIS time we found the right guy. And THIS TIME WILL BE THE LAST TIME BECAUSE HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO START OVER AGAIN when we KNOW that we finally got it right? Because who needs any more disappointment and pain? Not me. Not you.
Him posting your pic as part of a friend group to lure women is messed up. But why are you looking? Your positive attitude and the knowledge you have will not keep you disappointed long, I hope.
Can you believe it, the complete AC has posted a picture of me, him and friends on his dating profile titled “With dear friends 2015” what an AC!
I felt so good with the parting note I sent “…I don’t need your friendship, I have plenty of honest friends”, but apparently he doesn’t get it or does not want to get it. Further he goes to say “…looking for someone who is already happy with her life”, in other words ” have low expectations from me I cannot add any value to your life”.
See I am getting better at what people actually mean.
Wiser,
Are you happy with your life?
Wiser,
“….looking for someone who is already happy with her life..” with additionally so I can suck some (maybe all if I get my way) of it for my own worthless one. It’s unlikely he’ll find such a person given those who are happy are less likely to be on dating sites as they are too busy fulfilling their lives/interactions with real and sincere folk.
Perhaps he still considers you still as a dear bud which I think is delusional on his part. People are strange this way as you rightly put it, they really don’t get it or they do yet won’t do the acceptance thing.
I’ve had a few guys show up years later and they are exactly the same!
I think I’m finally getting it through my head that their poor behavior has nothing to do with me. I may start to wonder, then I catch myself.
Like others have mentioned, I’ve found the checking to see if actions and words match. Also are they consistent overall in the way they treat me and others. If they lie, they are gone – period.
I was recently around a very handsome (like, droolingly handsome), charming guy. Initially this guy was kind and thoughtful, but after a short period of time his mask slipped off and he wasn’t so charming! I wasn’t sucked in by the charm the second time around. He had his shot, he showed me who he was and I believed him and kept my emotional distance. No more giving the really good looking ones the benefit of the doubt to satisfy my ego.
Something I read recently really struck me. I can’t remember where or I’d give proper credit. “Each time you learn to act as if you are valuable, not desperate, you make it easier the next time.”
We are valuable. Each time we tell these guys to take a hike for treating us poorly, we are acting on our value, treating us as valuable. It does get easier. We build our self esteem and are less and less willing to accept BS and crumbs. I’m so excited to see the progress and that it does, in fact, get easier!
Wiser, I would peek in on my EUM on FB looking for… I don’t even know. But I always went away feeling angry, shortchanged. I stopped. It was like poking a wound to see, “Does it still hurt? A little, maybe?” It was easy to think this twinge of nostalgia meant I still wanted him but it was just me confronting the wish vs. reality of this person and regret that I didn’t acknowledge the reality of him, accepted far less than I deserved even for just the 3 months we were together. Glad it wasn’t a day longer.
Let him say what he wants on his profile. It’s all an act… it always was. Now you know. Good riddance!
@Suki,
Thanks, yes I am winning. I meditate and that did help me a lot. The spiritual side comes from the fact that he mentioned on his profile that he was spiritual and Buddhist. It was the word “Buddhist” which reeled me in. As I thought how a person who is spiritual and Buddhist can hurt someone. How wrong I was! friends never ever make assumptions! Now that AC is out ready to hurt someone else.
@Michelle
Thanks for the loving brick! You are so wise. I thought I was so over the project “Improve him”. But I do it so covertly , I myself dont realise it. Are there no Good men left in the world? 6months ago ended a 6 year divorce battle with a EUM for marriage which lasted 14 years and then this AC showed up!
@ljsrmissy
Thanks for the reminder “you so do not want a man who is able to walk away from you! the reasons dont matter”
The AC knew that I was looking for a job near his place and that I was giving interviews. I guess he could not wait for a quick lay.
@Cat
No, I am not happy with my life. 6months ago ended a 6 year very bitter divorce battle with a EUM for marriage which lasted 14 years. That was the only relationship I had and then AC one. I feel empty, alone , I want a companion. I have good gfs but all married. Presently dance is my only anchor.
Veracity! “Each time you learn to act as if you are valuable, not desperate, you make it easier the next time.”
Gonna hold that in my brain for a long time. Whenever my thoughts/curiosity wander towards my EUM, I will redirect on this sentence. Thank you.
You’re welcome, Michelle. Glad you find it helpful too. I still find it amazing how much power there is in challenging/changing our thoughts/actions.
I’m very happy and satisfied with my life and I do use dating sites, albeit sporadically. I agree with Natalie, “Introduction Sites” would be a better catch-all term for them. In my view, it’s just one way of meeting people. One way among many, although I will be the first to admit that there a lot of dubious characters on them. It pays to be vigilant and use one’s good common sense, but that is true of any dating situation.
Freedom Tastes of Reality,
I am very much happy and satisfied with my life and don’t do dating sites now (I did once a couple of years ago and from that one time experience just wasn’t for me plus I wasn’t happy nor fulfilled during) hence my take on dating sites.
Because my perspective on happiness is not reliant on another person, has notably changed my take on dating sites because I am no longer drawn to such anymore. As you say vigilance and common sense are key when it comes to dating and with everything else in life.
I think once you see that realisation for yourself dating sites will be a thing of the past rather than for sporadic use.
Each to their own.
OK everyone – I am prepared to take the bashing you will so rightly give me once I have detailed about my ‘experiment’ on on-line dating this week.
Background – 2 years ago I went onto PoF (after 7 years of being single) and got caught up in a whirlwind of FF/AC behaviour by the first pretty face that came along. I completely ignored the red flags and swam in the pool of validation that I created (he said very little but implied a lot and my imagination completely took over) and so it began….
Bad treatment, disrespect, cheating, chopping…you name it, it was all there and still I clung on. Wanted to win, obviously EU myself, betting on potential, touch of Florence, co-dependant…and the list goes on. Finally started to have enough of the rollercoaster, found BR and once I managed to tear myself away from every post where I saw myself and what I was doing wrong, the hard work was laid out before me.
I decided to delete my profile from PoF as it was painful watching him on-line knowing what he was like and also he would attempt to press reset every 3 or 4 weeks when he needed a fix.
Here’s the ‘experiment’. I went on-line as a male…in fact as him. (copied his profile and picture – okay not a nice thing to do – being a catfish). BUT – within FOUR MINUTES I had 7 messages from various women either chewing him out or begging to be with him! I learned that his behaviour with them was identical to my treatment and that he is never going to change as it suits him and in fact I have had a lucky escape as I would never have felt secure if I had have ‘won’ him and would have been in a harem.
It’s been an eye opener – and sadly there are plenty of ladies out there who will fall for his routine. Just hope they find BR too.
Needless to say I will be using IRL methods in the future (coupled with my BR knowledge!) as on-line is the perfect medium for predators like him. Delete, delete, delete…
Love to all,
Bellakins
O.M.G.
Well at least you know. No surprises. Four minutes? Did you respond to any? On-line def makes it easier to fake someone out. I’ve been OFF for 2 months now, but there just aren’t people IRL available either. I make this statement by saying I think I’ve had 3 IRL dates in six years. Not relationships. Just dates. And that’s with TRYING to meet someone. Online I had 10-15 in a year. In both cases, nothing worked.
Hi Say Something,
Yes I did respond ‘in character’ just like he would. He always said things like ‘life’s short so I go with the flow…’ which basically means he won’t commit to anything in case something better comes along (literally in the next 5 minutes!). Some of the ladies blocked ‘him’ and some (sadly) tried to get ‘him’ to change his mind and see how fabulous they were. That’s when I felt bad….didn’t want to hurt them anymore than they already had been but that’s what he’s all about.
Just delighted I found BR and all you guys. It’s been such an eye opener and I can see that I have to make a lot of changes to start attracting the right type of man.
I definitely think on-line allows men who have something to hide/are EU/AC to thrive. IRL you can check body language, tone of voice, expressions and all these things help you to spot the red flags whereas behind a computer they could, and often are, creating a persona.
Well, I have been volunteering and doing an art course and get positive feedback about myself from both these activities so I will just keep going and trying to improve with all the valuable lessons and experiences on here. My time will come. And if it doesn’t? I’ll be an old cat lady rather than some other rodents plaything!
All the best,
Bellakins xxx
Thank you for this. It speaks to me right now when I really need it.
on retrospect I would say before I met AC I was happy, my shitty divorce had come through and I felt freeeeeeee.
After I met AC I became very happy, perhaps the attention he was showering me. He is skilled in that department. I started writing poetry and singing! I never did this before. Together with my work, I felt whole again after a long time. Remember I was in a relationship after 6 years of absolutely no relationships. I thought finally it was my time.
It is now after the breakup that I am sad, but it is temporary because I knew the red flags from the beginning, it has also taught me a lot about listening to my feelings, importance of girlfriends, setting up boundaries. And brought me to this wonderful site.
I have very little option of meeting someone with my outlook where I live. So I am sad that maybe I will never meet someone, and I will be alone in Old age. Which brings me to the point why we consider it to be sad to be alone especially in old age.
@wiser: please know that you are not alone in these kinds of experiences. I’ve never been married but I have been about 4 years without a relationship and living a happy (but busy) life. I enjoy being single, and my motto is that if someone comes along then great, if not then that’s fine as well.
And then he came along. The red flags weren’t apparent then (though in hindsight they were there, I just wasn’t looking closely enough) and I got swept into the giddy feeling of a new romance blossoming despite myself. I thought I found someone promising—but no. I felt so foolish.
Hang in there Wiser! You contribute a lot to this group. I sympathize with where you are at…it takes a long time to recover especially after such a bitter battle. Find ways of doing things you like- dance away! and try to surround yourself with beauty…even in small ways. It is a journey. Thinking of you and wishing you the best.
Gina, I am totally in agreement with you that one’s happiness must come from within, not be based in another person. I’ve been single for almost four years now and I’ve never been happier. I honestly feel more fulfilled and at peace than I was in either of my two serious relationships. I’m right there with you on that point.
If you have to ask yourself if he is going to change, you already know the answer.
NO.
I have given a few examples (I have thousands) to drive home this fact and here is another one to prove that what you get is what you get for a lifetime.
A few years ago I cut contact with my father because he is so blatantly disrespectful to me (and all women for that matter). As of late, I was wondering if maybe he wasn’t so bad (he is). Definitely still is. But nonetheless I found myself wondering if maybe he had changed a little tiny bit. Nope.
I was at my grandmother’s (his mother whom I am very close to) house. She is disabled and needs assistance plus she gets lonely so I like to see her daily to help her out with whatever she needs.
As soon as I arrived, she told me (to give me a heads up) that my father had called and said he was coming by. Hours later he hadn’t showed and as far as I know hadn’t called either.
Typical. All over again I felt my childhood resurfacing. My tired grandmother raising me and my father’s empty promises. How someone can be so disgustingly cruel and cowardly I do not know. But I do know they don’t change. The best thing we can do is walk away with our self-esteem in tow and remain committed to being good to ourselves and those we care for.
Wiser,
It doesn’t have to be sad in your elderly years. The whole not wanting to be alone is never a healthy reason to date. Thinking it is impossible to meet someone in your circumstances is the most effective way to not meet someone.
Regardless of whether you are in a relationship or not you must plan for your elderly years and aging. A partner does not fix this or make that planning obsolete. You don’t ride off into the sunset together on a rainbow in your geriatric shoes.
In reality, many people have to deal with their partner passing before them. So they are grieving and in old age. That is one reason you have to be vulnerable to commit — you may lose them some day and it’ll hurt like hell.
Figure out why you are wasting time with ACs and stop. Change your mindset and you might meet a healthy partner. It may take time. And that is okay. None of us ever get a pass from dealing with loneliness. It allows us to appreciate company and be empathetic. Also, we must get to know ourselves before we can know anyone else.
Take Care Xx
@Crystal, @Suki, @Elgie R., @ Say Something, @freedme, @Why: Apologies for taking a few days to reply – I’ve been busy at work and “living” (i.e. not sitting around dwelling on the John situation)! Many THANKS to each one of you for taking the time to comment on my post and for your understanding, supportive and helpful opinions 🙂 This site is fantastic and, I imagine, has probably saved the sanity and health of hundreds of women over the years. ALL THE BEST to everyone reading this!
@Peanut
Thanks very much dear friend, I needed to hear this so much. This site is god send.
This is very helpful. About a month ago what looked to me like the very promising start of something with a new guy just ended point blank. We had had a wonderful time for two months together where he was always planning ahead so that he could see me etc. One day I noticed that the calls and texts just weren’t coming like they used to. I texted him and he did respond back whenever I sent something but I ‘sensed’ a difference. Four days later I asked him what was going on. He said that I was 95% perfect but that there was one thing about me that he knew that he could never accept. I asked him what that thing was and he refused to let me know because he didn’t want to ‘sound critical.’ Well, um, ok. But he repeated multiple times that I was still welcome to come around and proceed with seeing him, but that I would just need to do it with the knowledge that it could ‘never be anything serious.’ What?? Less than one week before he was inquiring about when our relationship could become physical. (I wasn’t ready yet). For days I was thinking what is this one thing about me that he couldn’t accept? And when the hell did he realize this as things just seemed to change overnight at a time when nothing ‘weird’ or ‘different’ happened. This post is just what I needed to keep looking forward and not back. At the end of our interactions, I also learned that he lied about his divorce being final. He said that his ex refused the settlement so the divorce is not final after all. But when I asked 2 weeks prior he said that it was final earlier this year. Smh. I now wonder how many women he has told that they are perfect except for this ‘one thing’ and they could still come around (presumably for sex?), but it would never be serious. No thanks, jerk. Thanks for the post, Natalie.
Hang in there Wiser.
No one (save Nat) tells us how not easy this stuff is.
I just want you to know (Natalie) that I have been listening to all of your audiobooks over and over again for strength and perspective. I get chills when you describe my Mr. Unavailable to a T and it is so so comforting to know I’m not alone in this hell. I have had no contact for a few months now but each day is still a struggle to not feel like the crazy person he made me feel I was. I even moved across the country to get away from him and my feelings and had to return when that didn’t pan out and now I get the joy of running into him at the bar with his next victim. I’m so angry and exhausted and DONE with this madness but I want you to know that your books have been my main solace throughout this nightmare.
Mary Jane,
Just saw your comment (I hope this gets to you).
I wore my elderly lady shoes today whilst bee boppin’ around town and at one point I did kick back on a patio with them and enjoyed the sunset and silvery clouds like none other.
I found BR three years ago. I was a frumpy secretary who was afraid of everything. I met a man; I fell madly in love. Turns out he was unavailable and so was I. I googled some mess about how to get a man to call you a lot again and lo and behold I’d begin the craziest journey of my life.
After reading Nat’s book, the truth was glaring and I began no contact soon after. I cried for near a year straight but I stuck with it and didn’t give up. I went through some low times, but I picked myself up each time and fought harder at being healthy for me.
Fast forward three years and I am an artist and aspiring musician. I have a fabulous life and I work hard for it and no longer let other people waste it.
I’ve been single for the past three years and I’d be happy to be single another three and so on. Single is not a bad thing. Enjoy it. Life is good.
@Suki: Thanks! It wasn’t easy, though. There were certainly times after it when I beat myself up, wondering if I should have heard him out. If I was the one with a problem because he did ask to call. Then I remind myself of the disrespect and I drop the idea, but then end up feeling sad and confused about the entire thing. Repeat. But mostly, I was scared I may have contracted anything from him. I didn’t, fortunately, but my god did the wait for test results almost kill me!
There are still moments when I remember what happened and I get a little pang in my chest—a mix of anger and disappointment—but I guess that’s only normal given how recent it is.
The last paragraph, my goodness is a message for all to hear and one that I needed most. Thank you!