A few years back, a longtime couple finally got married after a gazillion years together (OK a couple of decades or so), kids, abuse, affairs, outside kids, and a steady, unrelenting devotion by her that would make your eyes water in disbelief – they say love is blind, but it’s more like pain, denial and low self-esteem is blind. His harem members (and there were many) were shocked and there was plenty of speculation, gossip and a helluva lot of mourning and feeling rejected going on.
I see this going on in the comments and stories readers share with me:
They can’t believe that their ex has ‘changed’ and practically want to run a sting operation to prove it. It’s either that or they want to take ‘revenge’ for them treating them badly under ‘false pretences’ and for (in their relationship) being a violation of the Trade Description Act because it ‘turns out’ they were wonderful and they got a bad deal. Then they wonder What’s wrong with me?
They’re convinced that their ex has spontaneously combusted into The Best Person That Ever Walked The Earth Who Has Also Practically Walked On Water ™.
They feel crippled by this idea that somebody who they termed as being a ‘narcissist’ and ‘abuser’ (or assclown) has ‘changed’. “Damnit! I’ve spent most of my adult life trying to give salvation to someone who has walked on me like a doormat and who is totally unworthy of my time because I felt like I would be good enough and now they’ve been able to save/fix/heal/help them! I’m worthless!”
Incidentally my inbox is full of emails from women and men essentially asking me why they’re not getting empathy from someone they call a narcissist or an assclown. Er, isn’t ‘empathetic narcissist’ (or assclown) an oxymoron? It’s like specifically buying a Fiat Punto and going “But I want it to be a BMW.” If you want empathy and a relationship, you’re barking up the wrong tree with a narcissist. Ironically, I don’t think we realise that when we expect to be made the exception to the rule and a psychological rule at that…it’s delusions of grandeur.
But I digress…
So this woman who ‘finally got her man’ and her ‘happy ending’ (nausea alert), what is her relationship now? She’s married to someone who continues to do a number of the things that he did when they weren’t married and she’s now a married woman with a harem in the background. Really, is that ‘winning’?
I’ve heard and seen this story thousands of times and it’s sad that outsiders looking in persecute themselves as if someone who is ‘mighty special’ has gotten away. I think we fail to realise that by being involved with someone who would treat us without love, care, trust, and respect and even get their way by force, we’re pumping them up and when we knowingly participate in a harem, we boost them into the stars.
When you’re beating yourself up for not changing someone who treated you in a less-than manner and envying the person who has ‘settled down’ with them, you’re guilty of wanting validation, to be chosen, to be given a title without really giving due consideration to where this all really fits into the bigger picture.
You either want the title to make it ‘legitimate’ to accept the problems, or you want the title because you think it’s going to magically eradicate the problems.
You also want to ‘go back in time’ and ‘undo what’s been done’ by having another shot or even practicing so-called ‘new habits’ on the old relationship. “Oh if we were together again, I’d do this and this and that.” If you’re still hankering to road test a new you on a previously code red relationship, it’s safe to say that you have some more road to travel.
What’s the point in ‘going back’ just to try and be ‘right’ and make you feel better about previously dubious choices? You’d get over any previous experiences if you left the harem and worked on the bigger issue at hand – Why, even in the face of being treated in a certain way by somebody and even knowing that they have fundamental issues that are a barrier to a relationship, are you still there trying to go back and obsessing about them, when you could be addressing why you were with them in the first place and mending that?
The reason why you want to be believe that they’ve changed is because it fits into your tendency to blame you. Why else would you do it? It’s like forgetting that their character was self-evident in the relationship with you. In fact, it seems like you’ve forgotten that they have a separate identity because you’re going “I can’t believe they’ve changed – what’s wrong with me?” when the first half of the sentence was talking about a person who is entirely separate to you.
What’s ‘wrong’ with you if you really want to get it down to a ‘wrong’ thing is actually that you’re not changing. Your perspective, your habits haven’t shifted ‘since them’, but they can do. Take the focus off them and bring it (positively) back to you. You don’t own a person whether they change or not. You don’t have ‘copyright’ over their assholery.
Your thoughts?
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My ex got engaged about six weeks after we broke up. Our “relationship” had been held together with future faking, stonewalling and moving goalposts, all under his control. But his ensuing marriage (following LD courtship and engagement) didn’t surprise me. I long figured if he was to learn anything from “us” it was to not let a girl get to know him before getting her to go all in. I was right.
@Vina,
Yikes. Dodged a bullet on that one, eh?
i love it – ‘you dont have copyright over their assholery’. Too true. Forget them, kick aholery behaviour to the kerb
Natalie…DAMN! You have been going IN with these posts in the last week. Standing Ovation! This is EXACTLY what I needed to hear. No. Scratch that. It’s what I needed to ABSORB. I’m still working on ABSORBING this concept. By constantly thinking he has changed into this amazing person, I consistently put myself in the “wrong” place. In a place of inaction. In a place of pointless stagnation and unnecessary mental anguish. Why would I voluntarily volunteer for such torture? I have got to get to the other side of self punishment for my feelings of “unworthiness”. I did not deserve his bad treatment. I AM worthy of love, care and RESPECT. I AM ENOUGH. Lisa…for all things good and holy…let this sink IN.
Natalie…thank you once again for such an insightful blog post.
Lady Lisa…I agree when you say you need to
“absorb”. That is the perfect way to describe
what I need to do. I hear what I need to hear but
it’s actually taking it internally and owning it,
is what I need to do. I am slowly doing that
however. It’s just taking so long! I am over 30
days NC and each day it’s like I am a snail
moving forward past all the hurt,loss of self-respect and self-esteem. But I can tell
I am moving on so that’s all that counts. I read
on here from a fellow poster that it will feel
better at the 6 month point. That gives me hope that
I will feel better too.
On the flipside, I see it as a blessing in disguise. Forcing us to grow a serious set… see it for what it was and move on. So that we waste less time greiving over whatever it is we think we lost, we never really had it to begin with.
It’s never good to dwell on what happened. It’s okay to acknowledge your sad or angry. Say out loud ‘I’m angry as hell right now’, and let it pass and be done with it. Go out with friends or family.. focus on the present moment. Stop obsessing, and that is how healing begins… and happiness. There’s so many things in life to be occupied with, good things. If my ex marries someone tomorrow. So be it. I am not rushing anything with anyone… I am taking my time, enjoying my life. I will have my day some day… it’s just not meant to be with him. God’s got something better in mind for me… 🙂
Spot on, Demke!!:))) Not there yet, but working on it, and slowly things are getting better!! My ex just moved in with his girlfriend after only seeing her for a couple of months, whereas he couldn’t settle down with me in five years!!!! It makes me angry, but as Demke says, we just weren’t meant to be. Have to accept that and move on ….
Natalie you are spot on again, thank you! I did asked myself what the hell I was doing with my ACs and wasted 5 years of my life…They do not change, I HAVE TO CHANGE! I met my current AC after 2 months of NC and he was all caring and attentive for one week, and second week he “came back” to his old ways. What I was expected? I told him to go and find someone else, but he was saying that he wants only me:-(
@Little Star – the only thing your current AC needs to find is the door. I’m sure he’ll find someone else just fine without you telling him. And if he wants to date only you, then he needs to show you, consistently, that he’s the man for the job. If this is the same guy you “wasted 5 years on”, well make that 5 years and 2 weeks. My ex AC would do and say the exact things you just mentioned. Same. “I only want to be with you, date you (yea.. ok, after how many years? we’re still ‘dating’? lol), if it’s not gonna happen w/ you I don’t want it”. They’re so full of it it’s not even funny.
These men know how vulnerable we are, and that we obviously don’t have a lot of self-esteem, cause we would’ve walked and never looked back a long time ago. My ex, very smart… knows what buttons to push, how I will react, etc.. they can be very manipulative and cunning people. They play off of our vulnerbilities. They know it. But we don’t believe that’s what’s going on, because we ‘listen’ too much to what they say. And not enough to our instincts. I would mention to friends how my ex would intentionally intigate a fight so he could ‘go out’ on the weekend. They would tell me it was ‘abusive’, I wouldn’t believe the feedback/advice from a trustworthy 3rd party, but I’d believe some AC who actually was being abusive?
Anyone who’s still going through this… please, do what you can to put all of your energy and focus on you… and believe that you are worth so much better. Worthiness and happiness come from within. Good people would not treat other people that way. People with integrity and want the best for other people… do not abuse, in any way. Believe it!
Thank you so much Demke for your lovely response:-) I wasted 4 and half years with EX AC, but with current one – only few months. You are right, I want a guy not only good times but bad times as well! I thought he was serious about me, he even suggested adopting a child together…AS you said Demke, I am going to concentrate on me, no point to carry on like I do, it’s make me miserable and depressed:-(
WOW…..wow. Amazing. I was (sadly) just crying over this issue, yet again, to my good friend this morning, and what awesome timing. Your post reads like you emailed me directly because you just *knew* I needed to hear it. Or like Lady Lisa says in her reply, to “ABSORB” it. My (now) ex didn’t “tell” me he was moving in with another girl…I found out by reading a post on his SON’s facebook page, of all things. His moving in with her was already in the works, all the while I’m still getting the “good morning baby” calls, and “xoxo” texts….CRUMBS!!!!!
I feel “duped”. I feel humiliated, as I’m sure many of you do. It’s a weird “abandonment” feeling and definitely one where you start to blame yourself, but everyone around you sees that HE is the assclown. (Or as we in the US say, he is a douchebag!).
Natalie, your posts continue to be like a life raft, keeping my head above the water until I can reach the shore.
I wish I knew you and could give you a hug. Your insight helps tremendously.
A thousand thanks for your virtual support.
goodkarmagirl,
Sorry you had to hear about your ex moving in with someone else on fb. Yes, he does sound like a douche. Time to flush, go NC, and be good to YOU. Hugs xo
Omg nat once again your head on. I recently saw a ex azzhole’s wedding pic’s on facebook(hint about ur last post lol) this guy picture is in the dictionary under azzholeary! I swear I was jealous. Thinking how did she shagg him,I mean there were tons of us(baby mommas included) who shed tears behind this fool,we all couldn’t get him to commit,but to see his bride and him sharing their dance together I forgot all the reason’s why he was so wrong for me in the first place! But thanks for the reminder! Lol
One of my ex’s found another girlfriend two weeks after we broke up and he married her. That was oh….25 years ago. I googled him recently (hey, don’t we all google ex’s?) and discovered he was divorced!
Yeah, Yeah, I know intellectually what Natalie is talking about. But when you’re in it at the time, you just feel……
But this all goes back to what Natalie has said in other blog posts: You pick your significant other’s based on your family dynamics. And I now know which family member my boyfriends were based on!
Just excellent Nat! I can remember when I was despondent after I’d withstood the final diss (thank you, Jesus, my Rabbi and Baggage Reclaim for showing me some sense) from my last assclown and wailing to my mother that he was going to be engaged in no time at all and I’d always be alllloooooone! (Again, I was despondent.) My mother said to me:
“Oh honey, if you were ever engaged to him I’d wind up parked outside of his house the entire night before the wedding just to make sure he’d show up. Otherwise, I’d be sweating bullets until the ‘I do’s’ were said and, even THEN, no guarantees he’d make it to the reception. He’s that type. Trust me, I’ve lived longer than you have.”
For the record, I wouldn’t be bothered if ANY of my assclowns changed, because frankly it would be a good thing for womankind and I would rather they change than see anyone else get their feelings hurt. You know how I got to that point? Because I realized that it had, for lack of a more eloquent term, jack sh*t to do with me. People aren’t snakes (though some do a strikingly impressive imitation of one *ahem*) and just shed their skin when the season changes or they’re in new surroundings. Character is character, so for the love of all that is sacred, stop beating yourselves up ladies!!
Natasha you are so right “People aren’t snakes (though some do a strikingly impressive imitation of one *ahem*) and just shed their skin when the season changes or they’re in new surroundings. Character is character” Yes, I love it when people think just because someone was willing to get engaged/married that now all the sudden they have changed their ways. Not one person, with poor behavior, changes it without serious reflection and a strong desire to be healthy…and that includes all of us on BR. And it doesnt include becoming engaged to someone while you are screwing over the person you are currently with or a few weeks after you are finished screwing someone over.
“If you’re still hankering to road test a new you on a previously code red relationship, it’s safe to say that you have some more road to travel.”
I LOVE THAT. Blaming yourself over a code red relationship just shows you have so much more work to resolve WITHIN yourself.
People, just create boundaries on what you will or will not tolerate within a relationship and have the self-respect to boot those who treat you like poo.
great post, Nat:)
Lord, Natalie you are cranking them out so fast. And all of them are substance that we need and crave so much to get our lives together. God bless you and keep you in His loving hands.
Lilia, see the end of the previous post on which I responded to you. I’m not feeling this one coz there’s no one for me to be concerned about, but I’ll be back.
Tinkerbell, that was for Calonlan, not for me! Anyway I agree with everything you wrote, am very concerned about her and hope she keeps on posting.
Natalie is spot on as usual. They don’t change but they will get a new fool who they can manipulate and who will idolize them. Hanging in there with these idiots will wear you down, cause you to obsess, and make you physically sick. If they didn’t have integrity and treat you with respect when they were with you they didn’t all of a sudden become wonderful. They are just in the “hot” phase and running with it. They will go back to who they are. Just a matter of time.
Your comment really hits a chord with me, Beth. My ex, who was my first love and first long relationship (ok and first LOTS of things), and I broke up in late July and he told me a week and a half later (before I told him NC) about this new girl he was sleeping with and how funny and different she was from me and how he really likes her, etc. While I’m now past our romantic relationship, Im still not over that girl, etc.
“If they didn’t have integrity and treat you with respect when they were with you they didn’t all of a sudden become wonderful. They are just in the “hot” phase and running with it. They will go back to who they are. Just a matter of time.”
I told him not to contact me in any way and that I would contact him again when the time came (if) in mid-august and yea have no idea whats happening on his end with relationships, which is good, but i can imagine him a)going man-whore and trying to sleep with anything that walks, or b) being all lovey dovey (like we were) with this new girl. both are AWFUL. There is of course c) that he’s just drifting along like me, but I cant help but doubt it. I have no control over this and its nothing really to do with me, which is all fine and dandy, but the problem comes in when I tell you that he was a pretty decent guy and I can tell you that he was hands down my best friend and no1 support when we together, and said he was still there for me when we broke up. Now I’m moving internationally (back to my home country, I was here doing uni) in a month, and its been SO difficult with all these changes in my life (a million overwhelming things)and feeling like its all on me and im all alone, and i just think, I could really use ex’s ___ (hug, help, company, humour), and i get THIS close to calling him, and then I think, what if he answers and hes with that girl? Or a girl? What if he doesnt answer? What if he answers and he’s not the supportive and caring person I expect or want him to be?
So, he’s kind,decent, caring and supportive, but also frustrating, incredibly late, unmotivated, grumpy, and thinks Im crazy in both a good and a bad way. So who is the ‘who he is” him? Am I being silly in thinking I could get some of the outside support/understanding I need from him? I keep entertaining the idea that i can/should see him again and start some kind of friendship before i go. I just dont want to get hurt and I dont want to be needy or somehow stoke his ego. Not talking or having our friendship side of things is hard, but Im afraid of how opening up to/inviting this could backfire on me.
What do you guys think?
“…he told me a week and a half later (before I told him NC) about this new girl he was sleeping with and how funny and different she was from me and how he really likes her, etc.”
Sorry, but WHAT is THAT. He comes round to describe to you in specific detail how wonderful his new girlfriend is? It’s one of two things. Either (a) he’s psychopathic. Because that is calculated to hurt. Calculated. Or (b) he’s a liar. There is no other girl and he’s attempting to pull one of the most ham-fisted jealousy ploys this side of kindergarten.
If you get back in touch with him, no less invite a friendship, you’d look like a fool either way. If it’s Scenario A, you’d look like a desperate glutton for punishment, sidling up to someone who just childishly told you how much better his new girlfriend is, and you seem like you want some more of that kind of abusive treatment. If it’s Scenario B, you’d have fallen for his lie completely, straight into the trap, so he finds deception works really, really well in making the impression he was hoping for.
You actually want a friend like that? Are you sure? If so, why?
My advice? Return home without contacting him. It’s the strongest and most mature reaction to his nonsense. Don’t worry, he’ll still email you or check you out on FB, and you can take the opportunity to tell him all about your welcome home reception, all your great friends there, all the new friends you’ve made, and all the parties you’re going to. If he wants to impress you, he can do it the grownup way and visit your home city some time.
Al,
IMHO, he is your ex for a reason. It’s understandable that you need support right now, but it doesn’t seem like he really is your “best friend” (even though it may seem like it as he was your first love). He rubbed the details of his new gf in your face – what a jerky thing to do! I’m sorry but that does not sound very decent, kind, caring or supportive. Do you have other friends that you can lean on for support? I suggest staying NC and taking care of YOU. Hugs xo
Al, he deserves the whip of indifference. Hurts more than anything.
I think that you should keep moving forward. He may have been decent, kind, etc., he’s also trying to make you jealous. He probably feels the sting of rejection by you and in a way getting revenge by rubbing it in your face about some girl. And who even knows if he’s telling the truth. Could’ve been just some girl he innocently chatted with while out w/ friends and totally blowing it up to make you jealous.
Either way, not nice. Especially just after a break-up. You can get through anything if you stay focused on you.. and stop occupying your thoughts on some ‘mystery’ girl that may not even exist.
I really believe that as soon as we focus on things that make us happy.. and have the motivation and desire to keep moving forward, we will. And eventually we won’t care what what’s his face is up to. Open up to new people.. think about the kind of woman you want to be and ‘be’ that woman.
Wow BR, I was hoping to get some sort of response, but this is great. Thank you all so much for taking the time for me!
Grizelda- I think I’m thinking that its not a new gf, it was just a rebound girl (still bad), but that he honestly had no intention of hurting me through that comment or realised that it would because ‘it has nothing to do with me’. More, testing the friendship openness waters? Because weve both not had proper ex’s before, we dont really know what were doing? He broke up with me so I dont get why he would be trying to make me jealous.I dont think he’s an AC and i cant bring myself to ‘demonise’ him… it was wonderful and then slowly it mellowed and was no longer working, he ended it earlier than I was planning, which sucked, the relationship we did have was special to both of us, I trusted him wholeheartedly. I think my shock at him sleeping with the first girl that came along has more to do with myself: I couldnt do that, I dont trust people that easily, my head knows I will fall in love again and in a better relationship, but the rest of me isnt so sure and pretty bitter towards most relationships/guys now. I guess I would want him as a friend because i trust(ed?) him and could tell him anything and be myself, and really valued his opinion (but i guess thats a double-ended sword bc we broke up). Youre probably right about staying NC. And were not friends on facebook anymore. Havent been since the day we broke up. Maybe we will be again eventually…but thats the game of ‘who will cave first’ all over again.
Learner- YES, he IS an ex for a reason, and I deserve better relationships in the future. Hes still a good person, though. Focusing my best on taking care of me! And setting boundaries with other people in my life. Friends here are not the greatest support-givers, but Ive got a lot of fun and excitement to look forward to after I leave…keeping the positive thoughts up and yea working on ‘developing’ me in the meantime.
Lila-I have ignored his one text since I told him not to contact me in any way unless someone died, so to him I probably do seem indifferent. I think
I’ll actually FEEL a lot more indifferent once I am very far away from here and the reminders of him.
Demke- Good point. The bottom line is that he was not nice in the end and after (even if he thought he was trying to be. BIG DIFFERENCE). I do actually want him to not be in my thoughts at all…I think Im just not sure where to draw the line between ‘dealing with it and the feelings now so it doesnt become something ill have to deal with in 5 years with a load of other shit’ and ‘overdoing it’. And you’ll be glad to know that I am in the process of ‘being’ that woman (at least in all other areas of my life)! (:
Thanks again guys…..Really appreciate your feedback and support! Hugs!
Al – when you break up with someone, whether it’s the right decision or not, one of the adjustments that you have to make is Not Having their support, their company and the intimacy that you used to have. You go from being someone who faces things as part of a couple to someone who faces things alone. That’s the way of it, I’m afraid.
I don’t think that he should’ve rubbed your face in it about his new girl, but tbh if you broke up at the end of July then imo it’s way too soon for you to be talking at all.
Let him have the time and space that he needs to recover, and give yourself some time and space as well – you need to learn how to live without him and, whatever the circumstances, that’s a difficult adjustment.
Yes Beth…I remember my EX AC when I met him for the first time in the bar, I was talking to him and all that time one girl kept calling him, her name was Kate (it was displayed on his mobile), and I asked him:”Why she is calling you?” HE said: ” Oh, ignore her, this is my sister”…WHY I did not drop him there and then, he was fooling with Kate and later fooled with me!
Wow, this really sounds like me. I keep talking to my long-distance “prize,” because he keeps telling me he wants to be with me and we’ll be together. Just wait till after the baby is born (the one he had with his stepson’s baby’s mama who he was seeing behind my back). The baby was born in May. Then it was wait till his house is foreclosed on (which he let happen to screw his ex-wife, who also happens to be the grandmother of his new baby’s older sister), because the new baby mama had nowehere to go with the baby and she might get violent if he told her to leave. Needless to say,it’s been wait and wait bc he says he wants to get married to me in December. Why the hell I am even entertaining this, I have no idea. Maybe so I can stay up nights wondering who he’s with and who he’s talking to? I feel like a fool for waiting and for still wanting to end up with him after all this, yet some weird part of me feels like I “lose” if we don’t end up together. I must be nuts, because no way any sane woman would see this guy as a good catch.
Paige:
At the risk of seeming harsh, lets re-write that so you can read it clearly
Paige, you feel like you will “lose” if your ex, who slept with his step son’s gf behind your back and got her pregnant (thus can’t even keep his hands off his son’s love) won’t move in with you, now that he has nowhere to live because he can’t pay his bills like a man and thus has gotten his credit shot and his home foreclosed on. He supposedly did it to spite his ex wife, so he is also vindictive. Or a liar trying to cover up his lack of income.
Furthermore, you of course believe him when he says that the reason he can’t be with you is that his son’s gf will get violent, which is why he can’t move. So on top of it he is playing you for an idiot. So you feel the best you deserve is a cheating, lying, poor credit risk to use you as a FB girl, so that you can feel like the “winner”.
Look I hate to be harsh usually but you need to wake up! Your assessment of the situation is as crazy as the situation is.Your situation could encompass a panel on the Maury Povich show…please go NC and get working on why you feel like you deserve to “win” this “prize”; losing it should be your goal my dear
dancingqueen
well said!
Paige, are you listening? It’s easier for us to see as outsiders, but this man is not good for you! Please run away fast! Have you read Natalie’s Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl?
Paige,
What in the world would you lose?
Do you want to raise children with man? Do you think that would be fair to your kids? UGGGGGH!!!
Hon, if you continue down this path, you have no one to blame but yourself!
Paige
He’s taking you for a mug. Person who needs to do the changing here is you.
I agree with you all. I do feel like a fool and I know I have myself to blame for staying in this situation. He was my first love from about 18 years ago (and he screwed me over then, too) and came back in my life when I was in a very vulnerable state. I actually appreciate the harshness dancingqueen, bc I think I needed to hear it, with no sugarcoating, to put things in perspective. I thik i’m just scared to be alone, and I feel like I fell for a person who doesn’t really exist, but who I really want to exist. The real person is definitely no good for me. These posts by Nat and the comments have been a great help through this, though.
Paige,
You have all the info you need, yet refuse to act on it.
You’re scared to alone; I would feel much more alone with someone who has a zero value system, and continually deceives and hurts those around him. That’s being alone!
I’m with Fearless, you need to work on you!
Hey Paige,
Hugs. There is NO need to be scared when you find out the truth about someone. NONE. He is not Jason or Freddy Kruger: He is a mixed up human being is all.
I am sure that some of it was real. Some not. Men like this are complicated and they are toxic but you can handle it; You just need to trust and choose to believe that you can handle it.
Tell yourself “I am a woman, not a little girl, I can handle it.” Because you are, really, a woman not a little girl, right;)? Right.
I often feel something akin to jealousy when I see at work AC’s supposedly significant other drive by. I feel really sad that he is finishing his new house for her (that he was after some of MY tools to complete ), that she gets to have those in depth talks about environmental issues and social justice issues that we used to have while I am stuck unable to sell my house, find another place to work, and have to choose to either be totally alone or settle for someone less attractive, less educated, less healthy. Future faker guy, carpenter dude who worships guns, the plethora of liars on line just dont cut it. I know folks think I am too picky, but dammit I want someone I can have an intelligent conversation with and who I can actually be attracted to. On the other hand, what must it be like to be her? She bailed on her marriage to be with this guy whom she can never trust. How must that feel? At our college wide meeting last week, he was openly flirting with/ trying to pick up two different women within an hour. Nope, he aint changing. I realize that in many ways I really do not want HIM; I want someone who LOOKS like him, who has his strong social/ environmental values (I am sick of never being able to say what I truly feel here), but sans the narcissism. Sorry for the drawn out rant; my dad is slowly dying, refuses to get his affairs in order, and is my last de facto relative. The same morning I got to watch AC in action, my dad basically told me to @#$% off. That was my birthday. Although my family was seriously abusive, it hurts. he did teach me a lot in his own way, mainly that yep, people don’t change and what not to be. That I am the only one in my family to be educated, exercise and stay fit, not make ill advised marriages, be responsible, I owe to him.
Miskwa, exactly!!! That’s what I could NOT handle it, my Ex AC took his gf to holidays, doing refurbishment in his flat, money, support etc. What I got it??? NOTHING! He even used to tell me what an ungrateful bitch she was after he gave her free accommodation as she was foreign student living in UK… Last time I told him to go and f^^^ a woman he was with, he said that he was looking after his MUM for four months that’s why he could not contact me!!! What he think that I am complied fool or what??? I am just very happy as I never ever showed my love for him:-)
Stay strong Miskwa, lets not allow our losers to damage our self esteem!
miskwa:
I am so so sorry for what it going on I so related to your post. My dad is not well either and is a total jerk and did not call me for my bday either (probably because his wife and I had some words on vacation about how she is treating him) and I can relate to you wanting to meet an intelligent man; all I meet in TX I swear are ver religious guys who all have guns, I so want to live in Austin but I can’t sell my house for enough profit either…are we living the same life?
Just hang in there; it is hard when you think that you finally met that great combination of intellect and attraction and then you find that, with it, comes narcississm but just hang in there…
Miskwa, I think you and I are leading parallel lives! I too am a liberal, cerebral, environmentally astute woman working for a natural resources agency in an incredibly beautiful but intellectually deprived part of the country. There are almost NO men here one can have a decent conversation with. Just fishing, hunting dudes who have never lived anywhere else, have never traveled, who love guns, watch mindless television and eat junk food. Oh God. The awful irony is that the ONLY guy I met who I had anything in common with was the ex. And we did have an extraordinary amount in common – or at least I thought so (except as it turns out, common values of how to treat people). What happens? He dumps me after just a few weeks for someone else and is now sharing his wonderful cabin in the woods, his sailboat, his horses, his poetry and conversation with her. This is a tiny town so I have to see them together all the time. And oh yeah, I work with him too so NC is almost impossible!
I struggle all the time with intense resentment as he is enjoying lots of loving attention, and I am more lonely than before he came into my life. I’ve struggled with not hating him for saying to me “she’s really different from you” and not taking that as a pronouncement of truth about my not being “good enough.”
The only thing that’s working to counter this poisonous resentment is to decide (and it is a decision) to be happy for him and wish him well – maybe this is the real thing for him, maybe he’s changed, maybe she’s someone who deserves some blessings in her life. Their relationship is none of my business and I feel MUCH more at peace when I can get that through my thick skull.
In the end it doesn’t matter if they have changed, if they haven’t changed, if they are happy, if they are treating the new gf/bf better… the past is over and the present DOES NOT include them. Time for all of us to commit to accepting this reality, focusing on US and moving on.
miskwa,
Sorry, but your ex sounds like a sleaze, no matter how passionate about the environment/social justice or how good-looking he is. You are right, his behaviour suggests he has *not* changed for the better! So sad to hear about your dad’s treatment of you, especially on your birthday. That must have hurt. Hugs to you xo
Anyone been following the Justin lee Collins case?
Its interesting that this celebrity is gaining so much exposure about his abusive ways…
wowsa
Yes, you’re right.
When I was in television a few years ago, I used to run into him now and then in the studio building. He had a certain strong reputation across the company. I won’t list the rumoured characteristics here — it’s just that what’s being described in the press about him at the moment comes as no surprise to me at all.
The coverage of this has been interesting to say the least (as a former media and journalism student I have forever been interested in how stories are covered).
What intrigues me is that his wife stated in court that he was never like that to her. I wonder if this is the truth>? because he cheated multiple times and if this woman Anna, saw him being decent to his wife she thought he would be decent to her? then she probably got caught up in the ‘why has he changed’ issue that Natalie speaks of.
Anyway, she got involved with a married man during the marriage and then straight after he left. Bad bad bad decision. She was also a recovering alcoholic, taking up new relationships during this is again a bad bad bad idea, as co-dependency happens so easily. Lets hope women in similar situations can see this!
sigh.
I’m not in Britain, but I looked up the story. I wondered if the ex-wife is denying he was abusive as a way to undermine Anna’s case? I mean, she did have an an affair with her husband. Could refusing to back her claims be the ultimate revenge?
I saw the title and couldn’t wait to sit down to read this! It’s as though God sent me a message through you, I need it so much right now. Just found out my ex lover has left the priesthood, yeah, thats another story, and has a girlfriend that’s about to have his baby in December. Wow. I’ve been sad and depressed but I have to realize he must likely will be the same controlling , narcissistic, rigid man I knew. That helps a little. They got pregnant the first month they met! Well, that was not the best start either, they don’t even know each other.
This post particularly speaks to me. I’ve read it three times so far. Thank you.
Beth d that is my ex mm to a t! . I said this to my councillor today , what if he leaves for this new women ? You see i sussed him and as you said became ill and sad it dragged me down Even now when i sussed stuff out ie hed posted a post outside her house on fb and hid it off his timeline , but a mutual friend shared it and it was from dhere she lived and i caught him bang to rights . And as i worried hed change for her i realised as hed pullef up to her house that night hed been texting me saying he missed me etc etc . So no he hhasnt changed hed have seen us both but i was to clever . Nasty piece of work and yep shes fresh meat , good luck love id say . Lying yo her already . So no they dont change overnight .
Totally. It took moving to Mississippi to see what he was really like and I’m still stuck here a year later, but at least I’m not married to the dud, and I’m much happier now that I’m free and NC.
Not only king of the assholes, but SERIOUSLY DISTURBED and will have you joining him in sh*tsville. And that’s what you want? Sorry , sweetie but there’s no way of being delicate about what you have just told us. Take back your power, and FLUSH NOW!!!!!
Hi, Natalie –
While it may often be the case that a past partner who seems to have found a better relationship with someone else has not in fact accomplished that, it can happen, and it can be challenging to handle when it does.
If your former lover has in fact found a better relationship, that means they: 1) weren’t quite as verminous as you thought they were (allowing for the possibility of improving their lot with someone more compatible), or 2) they have indeed improved themselves.
For me a key point is that if you have emerged from a bad relationship, both you and your partner almost certainly have something useful to learn. Even if you’re sure your ex-partner was the “bad guy/gal,” you still can benefit greatly from understanding the dynamics of your relationship and why you chose this person. I think it’s wise to bear in mind that it’s natural, in the aftershocks of hurt and anger, to blame your partner, even to demonize them, and that focusing on those feelings may prevent you from learning the true lessons of your failed relationship.
“The reason why you want to be believe that they’ve changed is because it fits into your tendency to blame you.”
Well, that certainly could be the case. But it also might be true that they’ve changed, or have found someone legitimately more compatible (again, assuming they aren’t major screwballs, which precludes relationship success with anyone). In either case, rather than blame yourself or cast aspersions, you might find something to learn from their example.
I can’t say that seeing my former love with another man exactly warms my heart, but I can see why she might be happier with him. He’s a more “laid-back” type who’s okay with her hanging out with her ex-husband, which I never was. He loves cats, and is perfectly happy sleeping with her and them. I wasn’t. He likes to shop. I don’t – unless tools or machines or cars are involved. ? I wanted marriage, she wasn’t so eager to commit. We had what I now call “competing agendas.”
Seeing her happiness helped me to better understand what makes me happy – and I found that – someone who likes sleeping alone with a man, doesn’t have another guy lurking around, isn’t overly fond of shopping, and who wants a completely committed relationship, etcetera.
Lawrence
Lawrence,
although I understand what you’re trying to say and also agree with what you say, those type of relationships plus the endings of it, isn’t what these posts are about.
We can all (I think) distinguish a non compatible relationship, where people *clearly* and *honestly* want different things and are open about it, meaning they are being authentic about it. And even when they’re not, because they won’t admit it or can’t see it themselves, that doesn’t mean that kind of relationship heritage hurt more than any other incompatible one between people. We are talking about partners and relationships here that leave you baffled, feel screwed over, and you basically had no idea what has happened. Relationships which pulled the rug from under your feet either slowly or within seconds and you don’t know what hit you until you took time to reflect on the dynamic between you or from him.
And especially the dynamic where the AC, be it man or woman, love you up like your queen of the world and than put you down like you’re worth no more than the doormat of his house. It’s basically, in great form or less, an abusive relationship.
Of course an ex can always find love, and even true love, and there are ex boyfriends of mine in my life (longterm or short) who I still have a good and sincere loving feeling for and I never had to cut off. My first longterm relationship ex, is my best friend in life and has never stopped supporting me and vice versa. (For over more than 15 years now). He genuinly tried to change, took a year sabbat all on his own in the australian desert and worked in little communities to find his social strengths and how people need to work together, fell, crawled up again, came back home and basicaly grew up. And now has a beautiful girlfriend and baby girl and I couldn’t be more happy and proud of him for him, ànd to have him in my life and we are not only proclaimed to be each others best friends, we àre.
This is not what these stories are about.
With NONE of these characters I see this kind of sincere effort to do anything in the like. Him saying ‘but I do love you’ ‘I really miss you’ ‘oh but we’re just not compatible”I do this assholery because I don’t know what YOU want’ (I got this sad excuse) while all the while you so to speak wiped his ass for a great sum of years and than him flying of to a so called rainbow on his unicorn with the next girl he comes across, is not the kind of ‘closure’ that will do it after these kind of mind-ffing experiences.
It doesn’t mean he is The Devil. It means we need to take off our rose tinted glasses and more importantly never put them back on.
Sofie… Great response. Couldn’t have said it better myself. Applause:)
Lawrence,
I think you are confusing the normal type breakup where it just didn’t work out because of incompatabilties of one kind or another but neither party was an AC. in that situation it is possible and natural for each party to move on and have a happy relationship with someone else whenever they feel ready. But where someone has been an AC – blown hot and cold, cheated, lied, disappeared, reappeared, been abusive, even violent, those issues are about them, not the relationship, and they will not be able to just switch them off like a tap if they meet a more “suitable” partner. Those behaviours will reappear time and time again unless the person makes a conscious and sustained effort. If they’re jumping straight into a new relationship then they are not making that effort. They may have some awareness that their own behaviour was very poor. However they are not starting with a clean slate when they have a new partner, becuase they still have all their own baggage?
And a test of this is applying it to myself. As a woman in my 40s I can see that I took my relationship behaviours around with me repeating the same old stuff and imagining that the problem was that they were the wrong guy. The problem was me, and my difficulty in leaving dead end relationships, but instead treating the other person badly. So yup I was the AC and it’s taken getting burned by an even bigger, nastier AC to really bring that home to me and decide to change.
I have however had one (mostly) healthy and loving relationship which ended because we were too young, so I understand the difference.
Actually I may have had some EU issues but was not AC. Not saying I behaved great but I wasn’t doing all the AC stuff….just wasn’t really 100% in the relationships, always felt deep down that it wouldn’t last even though was with them for years spending most of our time together. And got married, hoping and believing that my lack of feelings for him didn’t matter and that his good steadfast qualities were more important for building a life than “romance”. I am still struggling with guilt about that. I believed that it could work well for both of
us, but unfortunately I was wrong.
Lawrence this statement right here says it all..”who’s okay with her hanging out with her ex-husband, which I never was”. He’s ok with it because he probably isnt aware of the ramifications this type of behavior will eventually have on the relationship. I’ve seen you on here before so I’m assuming you are reading Nat’s posts. She isnt talking about ‘incompatibility’, she’s referring to complete ‘azzclown’ behavior that people put up with from others and then either think they can change it or caused it to happen.
Lawrence,
Even the professionals find it impossible to refute the fact that the best indicator of a person’s future behaviour is their past behaviour.
People do not genuinely change — they just add to their repertoire of experience. Most life experience will actually reinforce that person’s behaviour (‘they know what they like and they like what they know’). Other life experience might soften the edges a bit or take on a new hue over a considerable amount of time (‘maturing’).
People don’t walk away from failed relationships thinking “Ok so now I know what to do, and how to change my behaviour and character, and how to alter what type of person I’m attractd to from now on, so that next time it works out and I don’t make the same mistakes.” Humans are not that pliable. And they’re not an absolute reflection of their past experiences and influences. All their core characteristics are completely hard wired — otherwise we would never be able to recognise people after a year or two of knowing them. People are not recipes where you can keep adding different cups of this and that and the other across time; a teaspoon of something and a tablespoon of something else; and end up with a finished product that’s so different from the finished product you might’ve created 10 years earlier. If people are a cake recipe, it’s always the same exact cake every time. Sometimes some of the decorative icing colour on top changes a little here and there, but it’s always the same cake every time.
Your cat-loving ex did not go away thinking “I get it now — I’ve learned something. Guys don’t like cats. I’ve got to stop it with all these cats if I want a relationship to succeed.” No, she just got a guy who allows her to continue on the cat-lovers path without any friction. No one changed, no one learned, no one evolved. Least of all the cats.
What if it wasn’t cats but serial infidelity instead? This is my point — it’s the same thing.
Say for example she had other men in her bed rather than cats. When you eventually found out two years into your relationship, it would have ended everything quite painfully. She would have witnessed your agony and disorientation, and your struggle to pull yourself back together. Despite all that, when she acquired a new boyfriend, she wouldn’t have changed. She would only have found someone else who appeared to be less skilled at finding out, or caring, about her habitual infidelities. Call it ‘better compatability’ if you like, but it’s going to end up in exactly the same place as all her previous relationships ended up. It’s naive to think she would have had a string of lovers while with you because ‘she just wasn’t that into you’. You wouldn’t have caused that string of lovers on the side. And she would not have gone on to conclude that her screwing around hurt you so much that she learned from it and decided to change. And she would not have gone on to decide that since she was ‘happier’ with her next boyfriend she stopped her well-developed habit for very long of running around dropping her drawers for every man in the office. With maturity comes wisdom, so in time it might just’ve been for the chairman rather than for just anybody.
The entire premise of getting a new partner is always and forever built on ‘this is me not changing’. People can change their circumstances, but that’s all. They can add to their repertoire of experience. They can mature (but not always!). Because, in the medium and long term, they will always conform to their past patterns of behaviour without much deviation.
Griselda –
Fantastic comments. Your post finally landed what I needed to learn for the last six months. People just fundamentally don’t change, they just change the trimmings and decor. Thanks for opening my eyes before I made a terrible mistake this weekend.
*salute*
Here to serve.
I recognize myself in the “practicing so-called ‘new habits’ on the old relationship”. Sometimes I imagine things would be different if I´d get in touch with the EUM again, because I´d be a wiser, more confident woman who would not put up with his BS ever again. I have clear boundaries now, right?
Of course, I forget that he is still the same imbecile I left behind when I started NC. So this is a bit tricky, I really need to accept that he hasn´t changed.
The relationship will not change.
I need to stay away from him!
This lesson is so very difficult for me to internalize. I get it intellectually, but not emotionally.
I was with my ex EUM for six months. He got engaged THREE WEEKS after we split up. To someone he met one week after we split up. They married 6 weeks after that. All reports from mutual friends are “OK it does sound crazy, but she appears to be really pretty great, and we have never seen him happier.” It really, REALLY hurts and I just can’t seem to recover fully. It’s been 7 months.
He proposed marriage to her 3 weeks after he told me he could not commit to being monogamous, because he had been hurt so badly in the past, and he reminded me he has abandonment issues. He said that I was insensitive to pressure him for a commitment, he was just not ready for it and I should understand. He also said he wanted to have the option to date other women and thought I was ok with that.
I actually thought we were monogamous! Didn’t know that was an issue. We had been together 6 months, he had told me that “I had his full attention”, and we had a ton of future plans, and I was so very special, yada yada. But then in the last month, it seemed that everything was becoming ambiguous and…distant. You know the drill. I didn’t understand, and was crying myself to sleep and thought I was going insane, until I found all of you and BR. ( THANK GOD FOR NATALIE AND ALL OF YOU. Really.)
So I pressed him for an explanation. He did not want to break up, and I didn’t either, but when I heard this, I did break it off. I’d like to say it was my righteous indignation rooted in self-esteem that made me do it, but really I was just remembering what the “old me” would have done… I had little self esteem at that point. Darn near killed me. Lost 12 pounds and 50% of my hair fell out.
It’s hard not to take it all personally, and to wonder if I could have done something different, and what she has that inspired his instant commitment. It’s all so bizarre, but it wasn’t at the beginning, and I am not crazy. Usually. But the weird thing is we were only together 6 months or so. If he had asked me to marry him, I would have said “no, it’s too soon to make that decision”. It’s not like I ever thought he was “the one”! Why does this hurt SOO badly?? Still?? I have had relationships that lasted 4 or 5 years, where the attachment was much deeper, and the relationships much healthier, but the breakups were not as painful as this continues to be for me.
BR has done me a world of good. Thanks!
Hey Sally Jane,
The relationship that brought me here was 3.5 months. It was the most painful breakup that I had ever had. I had been divorced and involved in two long terms relationships prior to the marriage and multiple short ones. It is logical that this relationship breakup of yours hurts the most because it is undoubtedly the most mind fuckery
What you will probably find when you look back is he was probably already looking around; he exited that relationship probably monthes before in spirit which is classless and unfair and ignoble. If he was unable to be honest with you, why do you think he has changed for her? He has not had enough time to change for her, between you and getting involved with her. He is immature and not honest; his lack of honesty in how he told you that he was not ready for commitment and then jumped in to marrying someone after 6 WEEKS!!!!!! shows you that.
He is no prize. He has not changed. The minute that they have tension he will go back to his manipulative ways. Be glad that you are rid of him sweetie hugs.
also Sally Jane,
do these mutual friends not THINK?
Someone doesn’t LOOK happier and then go off telling a *fresh* ex about it.
You don’t. You just DON’T.
Someone either IS happier after a certain amount of time, after rain and sunshine, after milestones in a relationship, someone is maybe genuinly happier. And that’s great.
After 6 weeks? Someone is not *happier*; someone is living in a dreamworld where they can do as they please and they have fun because they push reset buttons as if they were thé director of the movie called ‘life’.
That is not being happier.
It’s false.
You don’t want false.
Sally Jane,
Ahh, the “it’s unfair to pressure me” and “you have my complete attention (I am just very busy)” sound soo familiar. And these were from the exMM. And *he* didn’t want to break up either. But we did, and it was painful as hell. It seems the EUM/FBG relationshit endings can have their own level of pain as we were so buried in our own delusions.
You admit you didn’t feel he was “the one”. He apparently didn’t feel you were “the one” either. Who knows if he is as happy as he looks? It doesn’t matter. He has moved on and now you must, too. Time to be good to YOU xo
Ah Sally Jane,
I wish I could put my arm around your shoulder and give you a squeeze — what you say about this relationship breakup being so much more painful than healthy ones reflects my experience exactly.
The lies. All those lies they tell. Piles and piles of them. And they’re all constructed to make him look good, and respectable, and decent — when you know he’s anything BUT those things.
Natalie’s book about Mr Unavailable made me laugh like a drain when I read the chapter about all these EUMs, they all have the sad “And then one time, at band camp…” story about getting hurt really bad once, when they were in the 7th grade probably. They crank out this story (which is certainly exaggeraged, boiled down, or to many extents completely fabricated) not as a ‘sharing moment’ but as a means to inform YOU that THEY intend to pull all the strings in the relationship. That THEY claim the right to be distant or not, or emotionally involved or not, or needy or not, or stalkerish or not, or whatever. It’s pathetic and it’s childish and I swear the next man who tries to give me a sad “And then one time, at band camp…” story, I’m going to kick him right in the piccolo.
You sensed something was wrong and your self-esteem tried to protect you, which is exactly what it ought to do. This new woman has not been given time to develop that sense yet. He acted with all due speed intentionally — he needs that fast-forward momentum to get the ring on the finger before the clock strikes midnight and the handsome prince turns back into an assclown.
As you pointed out, his words to you and his actions are NOT matching up. If it so happened that your relationship with him and her relationship with him overlapped (despite his claim of a ‘clean break’ between them), then it proves that he started this new relationship as a consequence of some horribly shocking behaviour. Yes, over the next months she’ll find out what he’s like, yes it’ll be excruciating, humiliating, demolish her psyche and do untold damage. And STILL he’s going to be cranking out lies and cover-ups and what-not.
Sally Jane- what kind of woman would marry a man she barely knows? I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen on occasion and actually work. But, most of the time, it doesn’t.
I understand you’re hurting. Who wouldn’t be?
Think of… knowing you’ll be stronger for when you’re out there dating again (when you’re ready, because you will get over this). You’ll be wiser, more confident and you will find someone wonderful who will make it clear they want monogomy with you.
What happened happened, you can’t do anything about it, has nothing to do with you, what you ‘coulda, shoulda, woulda’, it doesn’t matter anymore. You need to keep moving forward… and focus on you and no one else…
DancingQueen, Sofie, Learner, Grizelda, and Demke–
THANK YOU so much for the thoughtful replies. It is so helpful! A leap forward in healing.
DancingQueen — Yes, the mind effery! That is it! Come closer/go away. I will take care of you tenderly/ but protect yourself –I’m trouble! I’ve never felt like this about anyone/oh, we’re just casual. Attempts to clarify these mixed messages = drama, or my faulty memory of what actually happened, etc. And a big part of that is my own denial, allowing myself to be marginalized and disrespected tiny bit by tiny bit when I thought I was being reasonable, compassionate, fair minded, etc.
Sofie — I thank you for your strong support and I need to think about what you said. I agree only time will really tell, and as you say I do not want false! I think our mutual friends were thinking:
1) she’s over it, she broke it off. She being me. I never told them anything to make them think badly of him, because that would be…icky. I mean, he’s not an axe murderer. And I do have some self respect! This is the value of BR! They don’t get EUM’s but you do. To them it is just another “no harm, no foul” break-up between adults.
2) they were shocked at his sudden engagement and marriage and are trying to figure it out, too.
Learner — I have been following your story since Day 1 and am so impressed with you. I admire your courage. Your support means so much to me.
Grizelda — WOW! Yes. You connected some important dots for me. The bandcamp stories were his way of saying “I have these serious issues so if I slip up and don’t treat you well I am absolved, and besides you were warned.”
And thank you for reminding me that my self esteem did kick in. Something in me said: Mayday Mayday! Abandon ship now! You don’t have to understand anything just bail and sort it all out later!!
Demke — thank you. The (non- mutual) friends that I have confided in see it as fairly black and white: you are healthy, he is not. He seemed grounded for awhile because you grounded him. You dodged a bullet and it is over. Obviously you will not waste any tears over him. End of story.
But I do waste tears because it is so much more complicated. Back to Theme 1 – Mind Effery. I “lengthened my yardstick” little by little until I was “trapped in my feelings”, as Natalie says. Because he is one of the EUMs that Natalie identifies as “really a pretty good guy, if only he was not quite so messed up and self-involved”. Or something like that. He really wants to be a “stand-up guy”, but as BR points out if you can’t be honest with yourself –if you don’t know your own mind– you can’t be honest with others. And we are all somewhere on the hypocrisy continuum, including me.
You are right that I need to focus on learning what I can, get my own house back in order, and move forward.
Everyone Else — your stories and comments continue to be immensely helpful. xo SallyJ
SallyJane
“Back to Theme 1 – Mind Effery. I “lengthened my yardstick” little by little until I was “trapped in my feelings”, as Natalie says.”
You will be for a while, at least I was; it took MONTHS for me to not be angry, to be honest, over a little 3.5 month relationship.I was also really sad and bitter and felt terribly vulnerable.
I felt like I was going crazy trying to figure out what ‘we” had really “been”; now I know, for me, we had “been” having an affair with his ego, lol, sad but true. I had an affair with his ego and I had thought it had been something real… the mind effery does really do a number on your emotions and sense of trust of yourself and others buteventually it lifts.
What it all left me with was a much stronger core; these eu guys are emotional pilates lol. Don’t worry, you will be fine, in fact, better from this all and stronger. It just takes time:)
Sally J your story/EUM sounds so similar to mine. It has left me so wounded and confused but we have to remember we were Ok before they came along and we will be Ok again in time. The pain seems to be far too much for the length of the relationship, mine was just 4 months!! However, I have never had all this mind effery before. I liked your “Mayday Mayday” analogy. On another thread someone said that eventually the “real me” came in and threw themselves in front of the weakened and wounded version of themselves and that they rescued themselves. That is how I feel but I never imagined it would be such a long road to recovery. All I can say is I have learnt so much about myself and about relationships, about boundaries and being assertive. Seems to be a bit late at 47 but better late than never eh? We are all here to support you and each other.xx
@Victorious …”On another thread someone said that eventually the “real me” came in and threw themselves in front of the weakened and wounded version of themselves and that they rescued themselves.”
I have a recent experience with this, kinda funny actually. My ex EUM was sitting in front of me, we were having lunch, on his lunch break by his work, he was distant/cold… giving negative attitude (basically like Natalie has written in posts… they will exhibit dodgy behavior and blow cold when it suits them, for whatever reason they feel is necessary. Quite a different man sitting in front of me than just days before (blowing hot). He literally did a 180. He told me he didn’t have any $ for lunch (which was BS… I just wasn’t worth it that day, I guess), meanwhile… completely giving me undeserved and totally uncalled for attitude and disrespect while sitting there, telling me… “this is my life, my rules, it’s all about me, I am great”. While keeping quiet, listening, and trying to swallow my lunch while feeling emotionally sucker-punched, I’m thinking..’take a good look, pay attention… cause this is how this man really feels about you… and you did nothing wrong or anything to deserve this flip-flapping hot/cold treatment’ …That’s where the ‘real me’ got up and calmly said “hang on.. I have to go to my car, I forgot something”. Got in my car and left Mr. ‘All about me’… all by himself.
He text me and said some more negative, nasty things. I simply replied.. “I’m sorry, but I forgot my self-respect. And since it’s all about ‘you’, …’you’ can buy lunch, or wash dishes… and ‘you’ can also find your disrespectful, self-centered @ss back to work. That is the last time you will ever have the opportunity to treat me in such a ‘less than’ manner”. And that was it. I haven’t talked to him since.
That was the “real me”, intervening, and my weaker version of myself had no say in the matter. My self-respect couldn’t tolerate the boundary busting anymore.
Good for you Demke. It reminds me of the last time I saw my exAC (Christmas Eve 2007). He was sulking and didn’t have enough ££s for lunch, so I ended up footing the bill, as usual. And this was two years after we’d split up – we were “friends”. I wish I’d had enough dignity to get up and leave like you did – we ended up having a blazing row in the street among the nice families and couples going about their festive business. But that was the point I knew I never wanted to see him again and I haven’t – nearly five years ago now.
Yup. I drove him to where we had lunch, so he either had to walk back to work, or call for a ride, hehe :). It was justified.
There was a night I should have done that – although I did stomp off at the railway station yelling “yeah – -seeya” but that didn’t have quite the same impact, especially as when he came grovelling back the next day full of “I don’t know why i was so grumpy/rude, I am so sorry, I really do want to have a relationship with you,” I just sucked it up and carried on for another month. I wish I could have done what you did. I am seeing the madzer tomorrow (don’t even ask) with my BR head on and I wil be paying ful attention and of there is one iota of boundary busting I will take a leaf out of your book and do a diappearing act. He would be soooo shocked!!
@lawrence
Your comment gave me some useful insights indeed…true, maybe we all demonise our exes for some time. But the major difference between just an ex and an assclown is the way they treat you in the relationship and in the way they decide to end it.
E.g. my friends introduced me to a great guy: good looking, sucessfull in his career, outgoing, who acted like a gentleman. Immediate chemistry and etc. He lives in another country, so after we met several times more and he left home, we kept in touch by skype calls for hours, having all those deep conversations and etc.
Then I’ve noticed that hes very reluctant to talk about past relationships, gets somewhat frustrated and shuts down, that you have to ask some questions in a certain way so that he doesn’t start to create some kinky movie inside his head (like me, having sex with some other man) and etc. and that you don’t take that “wrong road” how he described it.
I’m no psychologist, but thats just a passive-agressive way of behaviour.
I thought to myself these things indicate problems in communication, but of course I was so excited about this interesting guy that I didn’t mind them. Still part of conversations became kind of tip-toeing around questions which are crucial on insights how a person acts in a relationship and what are other possible difficulties except the distance.
When he came to visit after a couple of months, he was OK with sleeping with me, but I’ve noticed that hes reluctant to show affection in public (though common friends knew we’re not “just friends”), he wouldn’t answer the question when is he going to come back or answer it in his language (that I don’t understand) when our friends were asking, he would mention those friends when talking about coming back in general, but never mentioned my name… Just a little more than a week after he left home (was still contacting me in that time) and he went silent. I’ve waited for 10days (for I know I lack patience at times), but after not getting any message texted him saying he chose a rude way of closing the communication. Guess what? He answered hes moving, so hes very busy. Well quite a valid reason, I thought. After a week he said he didnt have internet yet, and in two weeks more I finally asked “wtf? just say if not interested anymore” (though of course the silence itself was deafening, having in mind he could use internet at his workplace, if he wanted to cntact me).guess what? Did I get any answer? Not!
So its not about the compatibility. Someone who is just incompatible, will have decency of saying this to you-experienced that.
Someone who only cares about himself/herself won’t even bother to end things (for its not always already a relationship as in my case, mentioned above) respectfully,if they see someone is expecting more than they are willing to give.
For me that guy became an assclown. Not because he doesn’t want me, but because he chose this rude way of letting me know by telling excuses for not contacting me and then vanishing in general…
I just had a heart to heart with my cousin who is in the same boat as the lady in your story Nat. She just left the man she’s been with with 20 years (married 9yrs and has a 17 yr old with). Turns out he has never changed, she thought he would when the kid came, nope, then she finally got him to marry her, nope, then bought a house, nope, built a pool, nope…nothing ever changed him but her sticking with him and making him seem legit when he never was. He handed out crumbs to her all these years and she is finally sick of it. But he’ll get his now, he is a bloated, nasty drunk and she still has her looks and high school figure.
I practice Zen and its taught me this about when a relationship end…Somethings are just not meant to be and sometimes its a blessing is disguise.
Hey I like that and I am going to go further; if it ends it is always a blessing because if it was the right relationship with the right person it would not end imho.
My ex went straight from an almost 19 year marriage to living with another woman for the next three years. Then he dumped her and moved in with another woman who he subsequently married. On the other hand, I ‘ve spent the past six years raising the kids 24/7, having one bad relationship after the other.
But I don’t feel like any of those other women have ‘won’, or that he has changed. The first girlfriend got in touch with me after he dumped her and we compared notes and he was as awful to her as he was to me, she just didn’t spend as long a time with him. We BOTH think the new wife is a moron, so we believe that he has found his perfect woman. She wholeheartedly believes his BS, she’s one of those “get away from my man” types. My son met her once and deemed her a Drama Queen.
There was a time I felt bad that he was able to have long term relationships when I was dying for one myself. But, he had the time to work on these women, whereas I have had to devote my time to the kids. He hasn’t changed one iota, in fact, since he remarried, he’s become a much WORSE person, as he hasn’t seen the kids in two years. He is not a man of character, he’s a loser, she can have him!
i have been pondering andi think if my ex mm changed for someone new id be pleased as no more hurt to other people would occur. but it is as someone said maybe the new women/men just put up with thier shit , didnt we ? just over time we grew weary and started to fight back thus resulting in it ending. its no good inserting boundries mid way through or at end. It got to be done from start. then if they go it doesnt matter you have made a stand and you are less invested and attached. thus you move on quicker. as for me today you know when they say you repeatedly learn a lesson until you learn it ? i think with the exmm that was my lesson when he came back a second time it taught me what it feels like to be cheated on . i now know what my ex hubby and pal felt like and its karma for my ignorance and arrogance in continuing to dabble with this man . i hope that he gets the same lesson that the wife or new ow really kicks him in the guts . hopefully hell change after that but i doubt it hes been doing this from 19 to 37 years of age. me im at peace with it i stand with a clean slate its good to know i dont and will not lie to anyone again , its like being set free in a way . Now what to do with my self as he has been a big blob in my life for fiveyears where do i go from here . get it said i was very young im in fact 42 just navie and sheltered. im toughing up and maturing as we progress , oh one whole week of nc . yes im proud .:)x
Natalie—spot on girl!!! I have a favour to ask–can you help us gals out with the narcissist ACs? This is a different kind of problem in that they have no real feelings etc. I would love to read more on this topic from you. These posts have saved my life from the AC I was with and gave me the strength to leave him. Not all are narcissists, some guys are just creeps. I am thinking of establishing a foundation to inform and educate the perils of dealing with these people. I know there are books and websites etc. But I love it when you expound on this topic. You truly have helped in pathways leading to recovery for us forlorn and hurting.
Natalie,
“You’d get over any previous experiences if you left the harem and worked on the bigger issue at hand – Why, even in the face of being treated in a certain way by somebody…are you still there trying to go back and obsessing about them, when you could be addressing why you were with them in the first place and mending that?”
Excellent point! I am so relieved to be out of the harem. I never felt valued by him even before I knew the harem existed. He spreads his “charm” far and wide, checking to see who bites. I was not special to him, no matter how much he insisted I was. He is not special either.
So why did I put up with the crumb-y relationshit? Low self-esteem, trying to win my father’s love from a similar guy, trying to find validation by showing love to a man who said he didn’t know what it was, and hoping to get it back from him in return. All self-defeating situations. I am now working on the areas that I can –
1) working on that self-esteem by figuring out what *I* am all about (instead of obsessing about what HE was all about)
2) working on the relationship with my actual father, to an extent that maintains mutual respect and care, so that the original feelings of low worth and “un-lovability” are handled from the direct cause. This has been a bit of a rough go, but with some self-parenting and reflection it seems to be working.
3) striving to understand my mother’s reactions to all of this, and how she mothered me based on her own insecurities and self-esteem. Working on my relationship with her, too, although she lives a 16 hour drive away in a religious community.
4) staying NC with the exMM. He had his own agenda which did not have my needs as a priority. I am doubting very much that he has changed into a EA, wonderful, non-self-absorbed man since returning to his wife plus longterm OW plus flirting with new women lifestyle. In fact, it seems he may have regressed!!! Either way, it is not my concern any longer.
Much of this progress has been from reading and participating in BR. I really cannot thank you enough Natalie!
Nicely done Learner. Great progress in all areas, particularly number 1. Figuring out me, not that I fully have, sure took the focus off of him and gave me some distance. While I knew that I had daddy issues, I haven’t really worked on the mommy issues which recently came up. So good for you for recognizing that there may be issues with your mother as well as your father. From what you’ve written, I can’t imagine the exMM has changed. But you certainly have and that is what is important. He isn’t your concern. See, I was right, you are a FAST learner…go girl.
Thanks so much runner 🙂
Nat you are smokin!!! I managed to get my first husband to marry me even though there were red flags slapping me in the face. I learned a valuable lesson from that experience (I was 25 at the time). Marriage did not change who he was, nor did it make things better. In fact, it only made things worse! He was totally disrespectful towards me: staying out all night with other women, allowing other women to call our house, running up gambling debts….we dated for 4.5 years, but the marriage only lasted 10 months.
Still there are no guarantees in life….learning from the mistakes made in my first marriage, I made wiser choices when I married the second time. Even though I married for all the right reasons, and felt that I made the best choice that I could have at the time (I was 31), my ex husband fell out of love with me (we had been married for 12 years), but was comfortable having someone there. He stopped having sex with me and started looking online at pornography. After we married (we dated for 3 years), I learned that he would by things on impulse (I did not see this when we were dating) and during the course of our marriage, he ran up thousands of $$$ in debt buying items that he did not need, and expected me to help him pay for these things! I suggested counseling, but he did not want to go. I ended up filing for divorce. That was seven years ago. Shortly after I left him he spent a few years trying to get me back–even wrote me an emailing telling me what a good wife I was and how selfish he was. One thing about me: once I make up my mind to leave someone, I never go back.
Like Nat said: people are who they are and they don’t automatically change because they are with someone else. The first husband (who also tried to get me back after I left his a**) moved to Memphis, and I heard through the grapevine that he got remarried and eventually divorced. I later found out from his brother, after we had split, that the rascal had been married three times in back in his native country before he’d met me!! My second husband never remarried, nor has he had a girlfriend since our divorce. He prefers to go to massage parlors and pay for sex.
I met and had three relationships online after my divorce. Each of the men were “nice” and turned out to be EUM. Since I am the common denominator in each relationship that I enter into, I need to do the work to find out what my issues are and how to resolve them so that I can attract a healthy man and have a healthy relationship. Who these unhealthy men, that I was previously involved with, end up with after I am long gone and how they treat them, is neither here nor there. They fact that they treated me without love, care, or respect, is all the information that I needed to get my black a** the hell away and to keep on stepping.
There are no healthy men.
Yes there are, don’t give up. Just make sure you are healthy. All romantic relationships fail except for maybe one or two in a lifetime. 50 % of marriages end in divorce.
Friendships endure into old age, not
love affairs.An Emotionally healthy man wants a woman who is his friend. Other men want love affairs. Half the men out there are healthy.
skepic,
Correction: There are at least two, Nat’s new hubby and Grace’s new bf. Okay, they’re taken but there is hope there at least one more out there who isn’t taken right? There’s gotta be three healthy available men on this planet.
Barack Obama seems like a pretty nice husband;) Can we make it three?
Skeptic: there are probably a lot of unhealthy men out there but there are also lots of unhealthy women who put up with them.
The only way to get in touch with the healthy of this world is to become healthy and authentic ourselves.
Lilia is right, there are unhealthy women too. My ex eum had an on/off relationship with his previous serious ex for FOURTEEN YEARS!!! Fourteen years she put up with his hot/cold mind effery. So, I have to give myself a little pat on the back that I only had 5 weeks of the bad stuff (after the future faking paradise of the first 3/4 months) The important thing indeed is that we learn from this. If we don’t become healthy ourselves we could do it all again. Oh God, the very thought!
Victorious,
This is why I am so grateful for finding BR. I was certain I was some sort of relationship mutant who kept ending up in a series of bad relationships each one being worse than the one before it. The one that did it for me seemed like a Godsend at first. I am in my early 30s, he’s in his early/mid 50s, he was GORGEOUS, intelligent, several master’s degrees, very hi-level position at our job, local politician, great to his mother, a musician, artist a teacher. I had just gotten out of a TERRIBLE relationship with the father of my child and he seemed wonderful. To make a long story short, less than 5 days after things ended I heard that he was engaged to his ex gf who he had been with off and on…..for FIFTEEN YEARS. I’m thinking..WTF? Clearly he had still been seeing her and became engaged before he and I stopped seeing each other. Funny thing was a week before that, I stayed with him at his home for an entire week and we went out, met his colleagues, introduced me as his “woman” and claimed my child as his own….I guess she was on holiday.
Needless to say the spiral of depression started. I kept asking myself, “Am I that terrible that I made him commit to a woman that he had avoided committment with for almost 2 decades?” I finally decided to ask him about it as was met with “there comes a time in a man’s life where his experiences lead him to an inevitable conclusion” and “I realized I would be most comfortable with the woman I’ve spent more than a quarter of my life with.” That’s when I found Baggage Reclaim. I decided to never contact him again, but several friends (men and women) kept encouraging me to do so to get the “real” reason since his explanation was “BS” according to them. To me it didn’t matter what the reason was, or whether it was legit or not, no explanation was going to alleviate the pain I felt. I felt duped, hoodwinked, bamboozled, run-a-muck, misled and most of all like a new-born fool for not heeding the lessons of the previous 2 failed relationships.
It took 3 horrible failed relationships with EUM in 4 years for me to finally get it, but I get it. I do believe that we keep repeating the same situations until we learn the lesson. As painful as it is, I finally got it! I knew after that I could NEVER go through something like this again. I couldn’t believe I was in so much pain over a relationship that lasted just 5 months.
I’m still healing and it’s been 4 months since the breakup, but by George, I think I got it!
the rest might be married to my friends… most of them seem to have lovely gorgeous husbands.
C’mon, Guys, of course there are healthy men out there, we just weren’t attracted to them.
When we’re in a good place, we will attract, and be attracted to good men.
Hey Lilia,
I am sorry. Thanks for the correction. Actually I should have been asleep, instead of on BR. LOL!
I’ve had somewhat of a struggle trying to figure out what my ex is- an EUM? An AC? Or were we just incompatible? Part of my thought process, is that throughout our relationship, he didn’t necessarily treat me bad. When he did something that upset me, I would apologize and often say “It hurts that you’re crying because of something I did”. The hurts were usually over petty things. Overall, I trusted him and didn’t feel like he was someone who meant me harm.
The way he ended things is a totally different story and that’s what has put him into AC territory for me. We were long distance and over the course of our relationship I had made 2 visits to see him. All went great- I always came back home beaming. Went ahead planning to get married and move to his country. Before the 3rd visit, I noticed our already limited communication really broke down. He said his phone broke, so I couldn’t call him. A week before the visit, I wasn’t even sure if I was even still going because he hadn’t contacted me at all (he did contact me at one point to ask me to send him money though). The night before I am due to fly out, I receive a FB message from him saying not to worry, he’ll be at the airport to meet me and that he loves me. I fly down there, feeling a little unsure about everything, and was greeted at the airport by a different person. It was him- just completely shady acting, distant, and unaffectionate. Over the course of the 10 day visit, his behavior just became more outlandish and cold. I was left alone in a room to wait for hours while he went to “run an errand” or “take a walk” after we began arguing. I caught him in lots of little lies over that visit. I actually began to suspect the money I had been sending him to pay for university expenses was actually not for that at all- he couldn’t show me one receipt. He pulled the dripfeed maneuver on me and I started to piece together that he was likely cheating on me. I cried myself to sleep- with him next to me- and just couldn’t believe my whole perfect relationship had come crashing down so quick.
Of course, he never told me “Yes, you’re right. I think it’s better that we go our separate ways”. It was all “How could you think that of me? If you don’t believe me, I’ll bring her over here and you can ask her yourself. What happened to the trust we had?”. Up until the morning I left, he was swearing that he loved me and we would be together. I came back home and didn’t hear a word from him.
I heard from his family, he very publicly has a new gf now and many are dismayed by his behavior (he lives in a small town where everybody talks). I think the new gf is probably a lot more on his level (read: immature). I ask myself how it is possible he would rather have a relationship with her while I offered him literally everything I had. I was the one who was way out of his league and now I’m the one who was just dropped. All of it doesn’t seem fair, but then I have to ask if that person I saw during the last visit is really him- do I really want that?
So, if it’s true that he really did check out of the relationship months before the visit, but never had the balls to tell me- then he is an AC and I need to just get real and say it.
Books, I am sorry to hear you went through all that! I was blessed (or cursed) to be extra paranoid when it comes to giving men my money so it was always a red flag when a guy asked me for a loan within one month of knowing me (sorry, no.)
This guy, while he may have exhibited non-AC behavior in the past, definitely was an AC and you shouldn’t doubt your instincts on that one. He didn’t treat you well and didn’t end things respectfully. Also, he exploited your generosity!! Although I don’t know the whole history (was it always long-distance? how did you guys meet?) he sort of sounds like a total scammer/d-bag!!
You’re way, way, way better off without him and don’t need to invest any more time/money/effort on this person. Feel sorry for the new girl he’s with (she obviously is willing to settle) and say, good riddance! It’s going to be painful but establish NC if you haven’t already and do everything you can not to give this jerk more of your headspace. Hugs!
Books,
I don’t understand why you were giving this guy money?
You said you offered him everything thats the problem, we tend to give all of ourselves, when they are giving little.
EXCELLENT Natalie!!! A post for all of us to reread when we think about taking rose colored glasses “trips” (oh boy!) down memory lane.
Dancing Queen … I hear ya on the religious/gun toting thing. I’m from Texas as well. My children ask all the time, “Why are we here??!” The debates have been fun. 🙂 I still have hope. There’s someone here who will peacefully go against the grain with me.
@ LoJ
Yes we do have our challenges here in Texas; the EU’s we deal with also love guns and trucks yee haw:)
Lawrence … I get what you’re saying. Sometimes people are not compatible. And sometimes they do move on and change. I personally hope so. However, the focus is still on that other person. And it leaves a lot of us feeling bad about ourselves, because that is a lot of our inclinations anyhow. Natalie gives us tools to focus on ourselves, learn how to separate from the other person, not always by verminizing (is that a word???) … but sometimes, yes … because we don’t know how to recognize what a vermin is. We see them as cute little hamsters when they are rats … because we know no better. That’s seeing it for what it is. (I agree, some people get stuck on that … not the purpose of BR but I’ve seen many “get it” and move past. What a beautiful thing!) I’m not defending Natalie, as I don’t feel you are saying she’s “wrong”, I think you are giving your perspective … a different view. But with your viewpoint, I think the forest still gets missed for the trees and one could easily stay “stuck” in an ended relationship and still feel responsible for the breakup. Not a true separateness of parties, which is what we’re struggling with. I’ve tried to maintain that viewpoint in the past. That’s how it worked for me. Take it for what its worth.
And Lawrence, too, our relations may not have been “toxic” per say, no “rats” involved, but Natalie talks about the emotionally unavailable, which comes in SO MANY FORMS, which most of us here claim to be/have been … its not “bad” … it is what it is and not so great when one claims to want a relationship. Stayimg in a relationship and trying to put the square peg in the round hole AD NAUSEUM is the game we EUs can play. Ones who know who they REALLY ARE, what they want, respect and love themselves, don’t relentlessly play that game. Not before, during, or a prolonged time after the breakup. Natalie is giving us direction on ways to become emotionally available. We can’t be proactive and focus on that if our energies are still on the other party. Again, take it for what its worth.
Well, life taught me that before you assume that there’s something wrong with you, you must observe that person’s behaviour in situations which don’t involve you. For example, my ex has now a girlfriend, and they’ve been together since January. With me, it only lasted a few weeks. BUT the fact is: it took him MONTHS to admit that that girl was his girlfriend – previously, he was inviting her to our gatherings referring to her as his *friend*(yep, me and my ex are still friends, but I’m seeing someone else too 😛 ) and not displaying any minimal PDA (holding hands, quick peck on the lips, etc.). This summer, he went on holiday without her and she was ok with it. Since they’ve been together, she hasn’t met his family yet. And I met the girl – she’s actually nice, but she’s very young (21) and a bit naive. Am I envious of her? Nope. Do I think that I missed a great catch, and she’s better than me? Nope. She’s just more accommodating, and accepting things that I would have not accepted. 🙂
Sandra I can definitely relate to your situation and I agree with what you say about observing a person’s behavior outside of your relationship too. It’s great that your ex and you were able to stay friends/that you’re dating someone new. I can’t say the same. I tried the “friends” thing with the ex and it was deeply unsatisfying and took a toll on my self-esteem. Previously the ex would’ve considered me out of his league, but being the ex now, he held all the power, and I put myself in a position where I could be rejected. Not fun.
Now he has a new girlfriend, one of his friends, who I have met in person in the past and actually have hung out with in the past. She was very sweet to me throughout our relationship, always complimenting me on my looks/smarts/etc but I could tell when she would flirt with my ex (then boyfriend) and it disturbed me. He always told me he never found her attractive (and because she’s not conventionally attractive, I believed him), but now he claims they have “a more emotional connection rather than a purely physical one.” That hurts and stings because it makes me feel like–does he treat her better than he treated me because of this supposed emotional connection? Was I really just an emotional sponge for him for him to absorb all of my help/advice/support so he could become a better person and end up with her?
It frustrates me but I try not to think about it. The truth is, I will never know what their relationship is like, and nor do I want to know. NC and going strong and it’s worth it. You’re right in saying your ex’s new girl is probably more accommodating. My ex had Aspergers, so he was fundamentally more unavaliable in ways that are even more extreme than the usual EUM (of course, it’s not his fault, but there’s more nuance then just absolving him of all responsbility – the main point is, we weren’t compatible.) I can’t fully believe that he has suddenly undergone personality surgery just because of a new girl – it’s more like the new girl is more willing to put up with everything — so good luck to her.
Another story that attests to this theory is: the recent abusive EUM I encountered disclosed to me he had cheated on his ex because “she was stupid”—uh, yeah…so I am DEFINITELY not the problem. A very vivid example of “IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU,” it’s really him and his crappy self.
@ Lawrence: I understand what you are saying, which is that an ex may have found someone with whom they were more compatible with, or who was simply a better fit. Perhaps they learned from the mistakes that they made in their previous relationships and made better choices the next time around. That’s cool and I have no problem with that. I, too, feel that I learned from my previous relationships and am now in a position to make better choices. My problem was that I felt jealous when I found out that the ex–who lead me on by behaving as though he wanted a future with me–found love and happiness, and got married to someone else, while I am still searching for that special someone. If I would have found someone too, I could’ve cared less. When I first found out, I felt as though karma did not come back to teach him a lesson. Right now, I feel that it is what it is and my job is to continue to focus on doing me. Thanks for your post. It’s always good to read a man’s perspective.
The thing is these ac dont show the real them till there wanting out . The ex mm was always my best friend i could text him any time when we were mates after our affair ended , and the long haul of fbg had begun , just i couldnt or wouldnt see it . He had to get married he had to do right thing etc etc , its only now apon reflection and coming here severalonths ago i could see clearly for the first time , i have alwsys been a bit ni eve . No doybt the ow is getting yhe best behaviour , me abd the wife got the normal run of the mill side . , whos to say in couple of months hell be sjowing his spotty arse to her literally . But sooner or later hell come un stuck i went quietly , you can never tell . With someone eles . Only so many times a risk pays off
Tired, this guy just sounds like a rascal. No woman, least of all an OW, is gonna get anything worth having from him.
Aqua Girl-
Hang in there. Keep telling yourself everyday that you DESERVE to be loved, respected and cherished. You will eventually get to a place where your self esteem won’t be attached to the situation, but it will take time. Be gentle and loving with yourself. Cry a lot. Laugh a lot. Feel what you’re feeling without judgement, and look for joy in every thing you do. I’ve discovered through my mourning process (which I’m still doing) is that 1) It does get easier and 2) I can multitask my emotions with my day to day doings. Whatever I’m feeling that day comes along with me. I don’t fight the emotions. I let them ride with me…staying aware while focusing my thoughts and actions on me. Do I still think about him? Yes. Do I miss him? Yes. Do I still question myself? Yes. BUT…I can discern these thoughts from the reality of the situation and understand that having a thought doesn’t make it the truth. It is what is…nothing more. Just breathe and continue to move toward the positive. Make peace with your negative thoughts.
Oh I so wanted to know how the exMM could just drop me in a heart beat once his wife discovered the affair. I got a dose of reality. Cheaters are lying to everybody. Most importantly, I was lying too as I was the OW. I was furious that he could simply carry on with his wife as though I didn’t exist. Here’s what I know now, I exist. That lying cheating exMM doesn’t define me. I can’t believe I ever thought why his wife and not me. His wife deserves him. Poor her. Poor him. Yeah me.
Take the focus off them and bring it (positively) back to you. You don’t own a person whether they change or not.
I keep switching my focus.
I can’t somehow focus on me and what I need to do I put in the too hard basket so many issues and problems and too many people saying you should be over that by now or it wasn’t that bad.
So the last guy tells me he has cheated on me and at first I thought of me and what I wanted which was no contact and nothing to more to do with him. I had the correct thinking in that it was his issue and not mine and there is nothing I could have changed or done to make him not cheat.
But then I make an error of engaging with him he wants to make amends explain wants me back. I think it reeks of hurry up lets get back to normal forget what I did I said sorry.
I start thinking about the other woman and what her issues maybe taking the focus of me.
I have now shifted in my thinking again when I allow myself to think on this that I did do something wrong and there is something inadequate about me. I have a long road to travel.
It is silent between us now as I battle my urges to make contact and apologise for something that is not my problem and also thinking wow he has a funny way of making amends through silence.
Before all this happened I bought two tickets to a concert to see a band I like he has his one and as far as I know he is coming along, awkward.
Hey Tulipa, I had a difficult time staying focused on on me too. His infidelity definitely is NOT your problem. You did nothing whatsoever to cause him to cheat. You are NOT inadequate. Cheating is about the cheater and the OW who gets involved with a liar (cough..from a former OW). Trust me, the exMM’s wife couldn’t for the life her figure out my issues as I even have a hard time and I pray she isn’t spending a moment thinking about me. He doesn’t sound like he wants to make amends so be grateful for the silence and use the time to focus on you. I wouldn’t listen to the folks who say you should be over this by now, you have some grieving to do and working through grief is very individual. Additionally, there are the emotions of betrayal to work through. Giant, big stuff. If you can, I’d sell the concert tic and treat yourself to a nice hair cut, manicure, pedicure, and lunch. If you can’t sell it, suck it up and still do your hair and nails on the day of the concert. You’ll feel much better the next day. BTW, the cheating exMM and his wife went through marriage counseling once she discovered the affair and he still contacted me professing his undying love. They don’t change without a ton of work.
Thank you for the encouragement Runner.
By the way I can understand your fury when he carried on with his marriage as though you didn’t exsist I felt that way with the ex eum when he just carried on with life as though I was never part of it, took a long time to get over that.
I have noticed the fallback girl thinking is mostly when I am tierd.
One thing I will never understand is why cheat why couldn’t he have just dumped me and had sex with her if that what he wanted to do.
Anyway I will keep repeating his cheating had nothing to do with me I am a worthwhile person who didn’t deserve his crappy behaviour.
Good on you Runner for all the flushing you have done lately hope oneday you find a guy who doesn’t need flushing.
Lady lisa , that is spot on . I let the feelings wash over me .. Im waking at ofd hrs in early morning and i have my little wobble ,where my brain goes ……. He gone , he really gone for good etc and i come here read . I ride it out go back to sleep. But i wont break nc . My councellor said he is focused on ow now and you will not get reply u want . Focus on you heal you . . Im doing okay but it hits bang like a thought comes in ie how can someone know you for so long and bang dissapear just like that like your nothing ? Or ill be walking dog letting it go . And it be course he was seeing her and. All let clues slip into place . And anger and hate well up and i cry and let it out . I went out for a meal with my sons and ex hunby tonight a big family thing i was dreading it but it was lovely felt like old days . And i cried when i came home after dropping them off.because i miss the security and i wish i could return home .but to much has happened and whilsty ex hubby has changed a bit, he is more respectful of me it took me to leave to grt that .
I cant go back im not that girl anymore . Its a mess at mo and in the misdst of it all im trying to sort myself
Sorry i waffled what i meant to say is my ex hubby has changed a bit but it took me to leave to do this .
We remain friends as we have sons but he is more respectful . He bought me flowers other day and made dinner , i thought it ironic that it took me to walk out to do this , but thete are some old traits left and they wont ever change . The father figure ie tslk down to me , lecture me .
So no they dont change the temper it to who they with since i got a bit of back bone he respects me bettet
I have spent near twenty years (i’m now 27) drooling over unavailables. I had a series of painful crushes on boys that were oblivious or just down right rude as a young girl. And as an adult I have made no less than terrifying choices in men. Now I realize I do have a choice as to who I fall in love with. And YES there are loving, available men out there. I’ve been blinded for so long daddy hunting. Not a good look for dating. And I did find shady men like my father who didn’t deserve a single second of my time, but had no problem taking years and months of it. My time is valuable. I will no longer waste it on these men and their crap illusions.
I’m thinking back to so many comments where we’re stunned and bewildered that our exs kept professing that they “weren’t ready for a relationship” or “didn’t want a relationship” or “I need some time alone” and then were getting married three weeks after dumping us. This kind of statement is a HUGE, BURNING RED FLAG that we have to start really listening to.
Don’t be fooled. EVERYONE wants a relationship and is ready for a relationship if THE ONE (or who they think is THE ONE) comes along. Everyone. My ex said “I don’t want to go deep with anyone” while he was already seeing the woman he dumped me for. And they have been in deep for over a year. What he REALLY MEANT was “I don’t want to go deep with YOU.” That is what this kind of statement always means (and there are endless variations) except the cowards don’t have enough guts to be honest. They don’t want to say something that will jeopardize the perks they are getting from you, even though they know they really aren’t all that interested. They are keeping their options open in case THE ONE wanders into their orbit.
There are cases where people truly aren’t ready, and if so they remove themselves from the dating world. After my divorce I knew I wasn’t ready for another relationship. So you know what? I didn’t date. I didn’t flirt. I didn’t pick up some guy in a bar just for sex. And I certainly didn’t casually string somebody else along because I was lonely.
If someone says this kind of statement to you, BELIEVE IT! And run as fast as you can in the other direction. It’s painful, but you have to realize they are really telling you “you’re not IT for me.” Don’t waste another minute trying to change their minds, because it’s not going to happen.
Lainey,
That’s exactly it.
When they say “I’m not ready for a relationship” or whatever variant, what they mean is
“I don’t want a relationship with you, however I quite fancy passing time with you for as long as it suits me and on the crumby terms I decide. I know you do want a relationship with me, so by giving you this disclaimer I am avoiding any accountability when I sidle out the door/cheat/lie/disappear etc and you feel hurt. By putting it like this, however, I will allow you a little hope so that you won’t step immediately (which you probably would if I gave you the unvarnished truth).
And you are right, they do not ever change their minds.
I’ve twice been in a “relationship” where the guy said something of this kind and BOTH times I didn’t really pay attention- wrongly imagined that once we’d been together a while they’d change their minds. Wrong! Fortunately I was fairly EU myself, and resilient too, and wasn’t too devastated when one “disappeared” (found out much later he had a GF in another country all along who he later married) and the other realised I was attached and wasn’t going to let it go, so finished it properly.
Lainey,
Spot on!!!!!
Lainey…
EXACTLY. Exactly. They don’t want to be deep with YOU. That’s hard to swallow, but by doing so…you save yourself buckets of unnecessary pain and suffering. The pseudo ex said something very similar after he had disappeared the 1st time. “I’m just not ready to be in a relationship.” I didn’t want to absorb that. I was so “grateful” that he came back that I just ignored it. I was always the fallback girl. His actions never spoke differently, but I was the one wanting to be the exception. Ladies, we have to LISTEN. We have to pay attention to their ACTIONS. He never wanted ME, and as awful as it feels, I MUST ACCEPT and move forward. Onward and upward and HEALTHIER!
Okay I totally agree with you ladies, if someone says they arent ready for a relationship then run. But here’s the flip side to that, DON”T be the one they run to. This is how I got my exhusband. He had a gf of 8 years, but wasnt sure the whole time he was with her that she was The One. When he met me, it was curtains for her, yep broke up with her right after our first date and was all into me. Married me a year later, she was devastated. One year after that, he decided to that he was in love with someone else, that didnt work out then wanted to come back to me. Ladies that’s right run from these people who say they arent ready for a relationship, but dont be the one they run to right after or during the one they are running from. Noone wins and this is the rule NOT the exception.
Lisa,
Healthy, Healthy!
You’re right! It is hard to accept that they do not want to be with us, it is much easier to attach labels and make them into the bad guy – I am not talking about the jerks – many of the men who brought us to this site – that strung us along with lies and treated us with disrespect. Just because a guy breaks up with you, does not make him a narcissist or AC.
After reading many of the posts, it only reinforces to me how important it is to VET! VET! VET!! Learn to be secure within yourselves–without a man–and LISTEN to what they actually say rather than what YOU want to hear. In fact, let them do most of the talking when you first meet them. People often tell on themselves (i.e. give insight into their character on the first few dates). Pay attention for red flags (visualize Peter Falk as Columbo) and walk the eff away when things don’t add up. No need to argue, debate, or second guess yourself. Men are very simple: if he says, “I am not looking for a relationship” and you are, then you two are NOT compatible! Walk the eff away! If he states that his relationship status is complicated (i.e., married, separated, confused…), you two are NOT compatible! Walk the eff away! If you are out on a date and he’s checking out other women, or women are calling and texting him, listen to your gut and walk the eff away!! GOODBYE is a great word—learn how to use it SOONER and MORE often. If you want to mix things up a bit, practice saying it in different languages or using slang: Ciao, Sayonara, Ahoj, Tschuess, Peace Out, Vaya con dios, Adios motherfu*ker, and for the deaf and hard of hearing..using the universal sign, which involves extending the middle finger while bending/folding the remaining fingers downwards over the palm of your hand will convey your message across very nicely. Once you put these techniques into practice, you will be very pleased at how the level of heartbreak is significantly reduced. Now repeat after me: Saying goodbye sooner=no heartbreak later. Halleluyerrrrr!
Just brilliant Gina! I need to tattoo your comments on my brain. 🙂
“GOODBYE is a great word—learn how to use it SOONER and MORE often. If you want to mix things up a bit, practice saying it in different languages or using slang: Ciao, Sayonara, Ahoj, Tschuess, Peace Out, Vaya con dios, Adios motherfu*ker, and for the deaf and hard of hearing..using the universal sign, which involves extending the middle finger while bending/folding the remaining fingers downwards over the palm of your hand will convey your message across very nicely”
Brilliant.
*snicker*
If goodbyes were bad, the first part of the word would not be GOOD! We just have to learn how to find the good in goodbye.
This post really hits home for me. I just got out of a year long relationship with an EUM a couple of months ago. The entire relationship was very stressful, mainly due to circumstances in his life – he had major surgery right after we met, followed by his grandmother passing, his entire company went belly-up, and a good friend of his passed right before we split up. Despite these issues, the entire time we were together, I always felt like he was keeping me at arm’s length. After a while I noticed he wasn’t doing the things a normal ‘boyf’ would do. He lives 5 minutes from me, but we only saw each other about 3 days a week. We went on a couple of trips together, and I did spend a lot of time with his family, but it still just seemed like something was off. I was extremely supportive of him, even though I had a tough year professionally. He continued to be unemployed the last 7 months of our relationship, and he didn’t seem excited to rejoin the workforce. Even though he had MUCH more time on his hands, a lot of that time was not spent together. I did tell him several times I felt like an afterthought, and he would continue to tell me he loved spending time with me and he cared for me deeply – in his his words, he was just so stressed out and ‘in his own head’ all the time, and that’s why he couldn’t give 100% to the relationship. I felt terrible for bringing our issues up when he was going through so much. I constantly felt like if I took any focus off him, I wasn’t being a supportive GF, even though I was miserable. He still continued hanging out with his friends, and going to the gym regularly…after a while it seemed like I was the only one seeing his ‘stressful’ mode.
8 months into our relationship, we went on a weekend trip with one of his friends, and a girl he had just started dating. They didn’t last long after the trip, but my EX and I really liked her and kept in touch. She and I talked on FB regularly. About 2 weeks ago, I noticed she deleted me as a friend. Thinking it was an accident, I tried to add her back and I noticed the last person she became friends with was my EX’s sister in law!!! Seriously, she’s meeting his family 6 weeks after our breakup? I had accused my ex of talking to someone else before we split, but of course he denied it. If she met his family so quickly, I’d say they were talking before we broke up. Especially since this girl lives 12 hours away.
I was the one who ended our relationship, because he said he wasn’t sure where things were going with us, but he loved me so much and wanted to ‘slow things down for a while.’ He couldn’t stand not to have me in his life, and he wanted to make things work, but just needed some space. I felt like he was being serious at the time, but I also was tired of feeling stressed about the relationship. I felt like he needed to focus on finding a job, and after a year of dating, he should know how he felt about me. I also told him not to contact me – we haven’t spoken since we broke up, and even though he lives very close, thankfully haven’t run into him. It just makes me so mad that I worked so hard to make our relationship work, and got nothing out of it, and it seems like he could care less. He gets to sit back and be lazy, and still move on with someone I thought was my friend. I’m trying not to beat myself up because I know I deserve so much better. It’s just hard to think he probably had feelings for her while we dated, and he’s giving her all the things he never gave me.
I remember mentioning the same thing in a previous thread that people can change and why do we struggle with the concept that the ex may have changed.
But whether the assclown or fallback girl changes the struggle to change is hard and takes time and there may always be a battle within us but one that gets easier over time.
I find myself wanting to be different to wanting to acting differently to not go running after a man who cheated on me. But those tendacies to do exactly that are hard and tough to fight especially when I am tierd and become overwhelmed by my thinking.
Progress is slow and Im not sure anyone can just get up one morning and say hey I’m not going to be that way anymore and presto the change is made.
The ex eum believed himself to be a changed man and believes he is capable of an upfront honest relationship yet he asked if I would continue to see him on the side regardless of his relationship status.
We can’t change if we are blind to ourselves and our ways and are experts in pulling the wool over our eyes.
Those who don’t take the time and flick from one relationship to another I don’t believe have made lasting changes and wouldn’t be able to keep up the facade before their true colours show.
Lainey … my dad had found “the one” when he married my mother. He was a very desired “catch” and my mother felt she’d “won”. Years of emotional neglect/abuse, loneliness, an affair, blame/shame and a poor example and kids who had NO IDEA how to love/be loved (we’re learning) they’re still with “the one”. Yes, I suppose there is the one. And we all want to be loved. But finding “the one” does not make us immediately/magically capable. Finding the one as my parents did is not good enough for me. It just makes you married/in a relationship. You attract what you are, so if I want healthy love with someone who can give and receive, I better be that person myself.
My parents were the love of each other’s lives when they got married and then it slowly deterioriated over 40 years to where they could hardly stand each other. This is one of the great sorrows of the family that my sister and I still try to cope with and understand. Yes, finding THE ONE (most likely a flawed concept to begin with – but that’s a topic for another discussion) doesn’t always lead to a happy ending.
I don’t know if my ex has found THE ONE or not, or if he has suddenly been transformed by the experience into the most wonderful, loving man on the planet (I don’t think he has been) but it DOESN’T MATTER because it doesn’t change how he treated me and how he thought about me. Mymble said it perfectly – it’s all about how they THINK about it in their warped brains and where you happen to fit in their quest for that magical ONE.
The bottom line: watch out for and pay attention to these red flags! Spend time making yourself THE ONE in your own life and you will attract what you ARE. You are exactly right about that. This reminds me of some words of wisdom I read recently: A woman goes to a relationship guru and asks “We’re all looking for our soul mates. Do you believe everyone has a soul mate?” The guru says, “Yes, absolutely – and your soul mate is YOU!”
Hi, Everyone ?. Thanks for your thoughts.
To Grizelda: I’m sure everyone here, including you, believe that we can change in ways that involve learning new behaviors and attitudes – otherwise, we would all be doomed to eternally repeat our past mistakes, and blogs like Natalie’s (not to mention therapists, self-help books of any kind, or the science of psychology) would be pointless.
I think we all have the presumption that while we can’t change our basic personality, we can change in ways that allow us to improve our lot in significant respects. However, my impression from many of the posts here is that this presumption is not always extended to the other party. The “assclown” or “narcissist,” or “emotionally unavailable” person (usually a man) reads like a resident of the Village of the Damned: he is forever what he is, may Zeus have mercy on his malignant soul. ?
My father and my grandfather both had other women (my grandfather actually did have a harem, we discovered later!), were physically and verbally abusive, and just all-around “assclowns,” I’m sure. My grandfather never grew out of it as far as I know, but my father, in his mid-forties, after three failed marriages – and countless arguments with me – began to question his attitudes and behaviors, and I saw what seemed to be honest change. He fell in love with a young lady, and for the first time seemed to have a happy relationship. I never saw any indications to the contrary in their thirty years together (ending his recent death), and while I’m sure his previous wives and girlfriends still think of him as a jerk, his wife thinks of him as the love of her life.
For me, the moral of this story is that yes, even assclowns can change, and that we aren’t necessarily branded for life on the basis of one relationship or even several relationships. That doesn’t dispute the bad behaviors in any given relationship, or dismiss the harm done, but it does, I think, allow for the possibility of self-redemption. However that kind of redemption, I’m sure, only comes with LOTS of hard work and dedication. It’s often neither easy nor pleasant to face oneself squarely in the mirror.
Nor does this deny the wisdom of, as Gina pointed out, that “my job is to continue to focus on doing me” (though I had some interesting images flash through my head when I read that!). I’m not suggesting that we not give these people the bum’s rush out of our lives. Their improvements, if they choose to make them, are their responsibility, and we shouldn’t be expected to suffer while they assure us that they can change. Let them do that on their own time.
To Mymble: Thank you for your honesty. And that was an inspiring story, sofie, about your first long-term relationship.
SM: “Lawrence this statement right here says it all..”who’s okay with her hanging out with her ex-husband, which I never was”. He’s ok with it because he probably isnt aware of the ramifications this type of behavior will eventually have on the relationship.”
That might be, SM. I’ve only seen things from the outside looking in, and I’d prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt. Not everyone, after all, may share my particularly insecurities or feel jealous about such a relationship. Still, I’ve come to believe that as a general rule it’s probably not a good idea to continue a close relationship with an ex, especially when he or she is given precedence over a current love.
(And Lo, if “verminizing” isn’t a word, is should be!) ?
Best!
Lawrence
Lawrence,
“Nor does this deny the wisdom of, as Gina pointed out, that “my job is to continue to focus on doing me” (though I had some interesting images flash through my head when I read that!).”
I enjoyed reading your response as it gives a male perspective on the dymanics of relationships.
Oh, and by-the-way: Those images that flashed through your mind were spot on, as I meant my comment in every way that you (or anyone else reading it) cares to interpret it 😀
Does anyone think that it is harder for men to be straight up about relationships than women?
I in general, have been straight up, to my best knowledge, I can think of a few occasions where I haven’t, but thankfully those are outnumbered by the others.
It really is about not giving perks to these potentials until they provide some evidence = actions to deserve it. Is why future faking and the rest exists. Sigh.
Hard question to answer NK I have found looking back that the men I have had relationships with have been honest with me at the beginning of the relationship, they all told me what they wanted and what their past was.
For whatever reasons I chose to ignore the red flags and go for it and wondered why at the end I was a wreck and I’d think back and recall what they had said and see their honesty I suppose if any of them had been decent they would have left me alone.
Its harder in a sense that when being honest you loose possibility to own a harem of women.
I don’t see any other way how could it be hard to be straight up for men.
I am not sure if it’s harder for men to be straight up about relationships than women, but I am sure about the fact that people–in general–are selfish by nature, and will often act in their own best interests at the expense of others.
we’re becoming stronger women! the comments are excellent. ? had been going thru hell since a breakup with an EUM who really made me feel like I was the one that wasnt good enough or together enough. After months of agonizing over all the details and how he found a girlfriend so fast after reading all your comments and Nat’s articles I realized that he’s been the one that wasnt good enough for a relationship with me or anyone for that matter because he is so messed up. you learnthat just because he looks good on the outside and has his harem of women/ acquaintances who stroke his ego because he was a musician/made good sushi and made good small talk doesnt mean he’s good. He had and i’m sure still has such a high opinion of himself and ironically read alot of self-improvement/meditation books (but never really seemed to have feelings-kept a distance from even his family even when he was physically there.) And so the latter also had me convinced that maybe he was ‘enlightened’ and I really was unworthy and that’s why I was treated this way. In hindsight I understand that he was/is in major denial and his air of holier than though will never get him anywhere in life. At one point i even stalked him on Facebook and found his new girlfriends profile. And i saw that he was emotionally unavailable with her too and just because he put ‘?n a relationship’ as his status (which he hadnt with me) doesnt change the fact. At first that used to distress me so much-thinking that she mustve had ‘it’ or was more worthy than me. But now I know the truth. The truth is like Nat said even if you give these types of guys steak they’re still not gonna appreciate it wont matter. Because its not about us. ?t’s about them and their effed up issues and their attitude and denial. Our main fault is believing it’s a reflection of our worthiness or lack thereof. And our other fault is not having cut them off as soon as we saw him treating us with a lack of respect. So hang in there and again I am so glad I found this site! thanks
Thinking that an ex has changed and has suddenly started bestowing mature affection, honesty and respect on someone else or is even capable of it when WE offered it and wanted it has been a major preoccupation of mine since my long term marriage ended. He was a very detached, emotionally undeveloped person with few boundaries, no sense of self, no understanding of me, passive, never had done any work on self (although had been dragged to therapy and told that) so was in another world (his own) for most of our marriage.
I tried to change things, worked hard at it, justified staying in etc. Even after the separation we were determined to “do it right” to be supportive and caring, respectful blah blah blah and even be together with our adult children etc. We share a business so NC is very difficult at least at this early phase.
He really holds the record for moving on quickly which is pretty amazing because he is not an AC by accepted definitions. It took just twelve hours after I dropped him at the airport to start an emotionally intimate relationship with the much younger woman he was sitting beside on the plane and, when he landed, to start pursuing her with all the eagerness and techniques of a 12 year old boy by email. She was oh so sympathetic to what a great guy he was, and I guess like him had no warning signs that clicked into place.
These emails were sent through our business address which meant that I saw the whole beginnings of it…and it was totally totally unexpected. I was going to spend some time with him and my daughter a week later so this would have been in my face (he was working hard to meet her again). It actually still makes me sick to think about what I felt when I saw those emails…like a hand grenade had been lobbed into my life… traumatic response is the only way I can describe it…..
I couldn’t understand why I was reacting in such a powerful way when I don’t want to be married to him anymore and it wasn’t “jealousy” about the woman…it really wasn’t.
Of course I did see the intimacy he was bestowing on this woman he didn’t even know and that was not real – it was painful to see this over the top stuff when this was the guy that said to me when our marriage ended “I thought we were just used to each other and that would see us through!”
It was the fact that he talked about ME to her and that got him brownie points. it was the fact that he denied it was emotional intimacy and that he didn’t seem to “get” that my daughter and I were arriving on the scene, that I would SEE this email right in my face blah blah blah.
But the trauma mainly came from ALL the things this liaison symbolized for me. In one fell swoop all those feelings of anger, loss, not feeling ever safe, not feeling heard or really known as a person, sucking stuff up for the kids, for the business etc., not having a real partner, protecting myself from his lack of boundaries, feeling estranged and shut down, having to make all the decisions etc. all came together in one great soaring ball of flame.
I think that the leave-taking, the other woman, our perceptions that he is making it good now…just represent a combination of our grief, sense of betrayal, our loss, our anger – and even our anger at ourselves for putting up with it. (well speaking for me!)
I really thought because I was the leaver and had grieved so much IN the relationship that I didn’t have a “lot left to do.” I know now that the grief is inevitable and I have to go through it and I am….I am better than I was 4 months ago.
In the end one of the things I have really tried to hold onto is, it is all about them….his actions weren’t about me, they never had been and that was part of the problem…he lacked so much “consciousness” that he everything he did reflected that. (and part of “that” was not understanding himself or how he affected me).
Of course it isn’t as simple as that, because we are IN these relationships and things that happen do affect us deeply…but I think really “getting this” (I am not completely there yet) is the key to leaving these traumatic and dangerous relationships behind.
i am so sorry you’re going through this xoxo
Expresso
I can only imagine how painful it must have been to have him immediately latch on to someone else like that. However his actions are surely a reflection of his own blind panic and terror at being alone rather than any genuine connection. You cannot build up intimacy through emails, there are many here who can attest to that faux intimacy. At some point his immediate neediness will wane a little and he’ll be faced with another real human being with her own thoughts and feelings other than being a comfort blanket and ego stroking object and she will come up against his EU ness just as you did.
I was used in this way by an MM who was being ejected from his marriage – perhaps for the same reasons, nothing he said on that topic made any sense at all.
He also “wooed” me intensely by email.
It did not go well for me either and I am still picking up the pieces of my shattered confidence and self esteem. Ive learned certain things about myself, but it has been a hard lesson.
I don’t know if this is any consolation to you but I don’t see that this “relationship”, if it deserves such a title, has the remotest chance of going anywhere other than causing a huge amount of pain for the other woman.
A man who has so little insight into his own behaviour and such disregard for the feelings of his family cant give anyone anything real.
Wow espresso, thats quite insensitive. Are you sure he wasn’t blowing it in your face on purpose? (not that he’d admit to that though right?).
Just keep your decorum, you’ll be alright, it shall come crashing down soon enough. Not sure how this would work, but you could ask him to keep his private business away from work emails. I think that is totally ok for you to do. Up to you though.
This girl is messing with a newly divorced/seperated man, she doesn’t know much about letting him get over things before going in for the relationship.
Espresso, much of what you wrote I could have written myself. My long term marriage to an emotionally distant man ended a couple of years ago — it was a very complicated relationship. He was dating the day after we split and then he moved away from me and our daughter and now he’s already engaged to be married. He moved on quickly. I initiated the split from him because I couldn’t take the issues anymore with him being EU and no boundaries and not really there for me but he never fought to keep me and work things out. He seems happy as pie now with the new woman and they have all this personal time together to build their relationship. Meanwhile, I’m a single mom with not a lot of time for me or a new relationship. I struggle now with assclowns and men I can’t feel anything for. It has taken a long time to heal for me and I continue on the healing journey. I have come a long way though in the past year. It takes time.
So sorry!!!!
Stay strong!
Lawrence …I agree with what you write. As I’ve learned more about myself, I see how “verminish” my own behavior has bee, at the time totally unbeknownst to me. (I always totally blamed the other party.) Recognizing how disconnected I was, I find it to forgive ones in my past AND myself. I too believe they can change. I did. I wish that for them. That disconnect, feeling shitty or treating others shitty, I would wish for no one. I wish that for them because we all have a right to happiness, not because I still feel an attachment, love, or my ego is involved. That’s what works for me, I feel I’m at a more healthy spot now. No verminizing necessary, though I can spot em a mile away. And I pray for them from a safe distance. Lol!! That doesn’t make me good or them bad, but different. Different goals, values, thought processess. And not what I find attractive anymore.
The opposite spectrum is putting someone on a pedestal and not seeing them for who they are as well. I’ve done this. Either because I want to be bigger person, handle it with grace (for others to see) OR I don’t want to admit I made a grave err in judgement, because then I would have to admit there’s something in me that needs serious addressing. (Ego … that’s a hard pill to swallow.) Then it can’t be “He doesn’t like my cats in the bed, I can’t deal with his incessant talk of his ex, he doesn’t want kids.” I wasn’t meeting the wrong men for me, I was PICKING them!!! And crying and whining and justifying and verminizing and putting them on a pedestal. VERY PAINFUL yet so empowering when that clicked. Then I could get to the real issue: me. And I could fix me. True freedom, joy, and knowing I will be just fine no matter what. And feeling safe to trust my own judgment. And to really, REALLY love. On all levels (children, family, friends, coworkers, my patient) and most importantly me. Not perfectly, but safely, something I’d never felt before. Thats how I feel.
Ladies,
Can I get in on this “ex-as-musicians” thing too? He he. *puts hand over eyes and shakes head* Oy.
My ex of five years ago was (is?) a musician, and since I’m a writer, I felt that we did understand each other on a different level. His exes all, in some form or another, demanded that he put them before his music. I didn’t. I got it. “It’s important to you. It’s how you express yourself,” said I, and meant it. “It’s part of who you are.” Of course, on the flip side, he didn’t like it much when I told him I’d pick my writing over him.
What’s funny about this is that the last AC (5/6 months back) was NOT a musician, but he tried to woo me early on by playing his guitar and singing. I think he got rather intimidated by my lack of wonderment, after I chimed in by singing harmony, and then casually let on that I had dated a couple of (working) musicians in the past. Yep, a couple of Nirvana and Pearl Jam songs picked on a guitar does not a musician make. Nor does it get me all hot and bothered. Sheesh.
The next time a dude pulls out his guitar and tries to go all “sensitive, creative guy” on me, I’m gonna hit the road. De.Nied.
Seems to be a lot of ex AC musicians. Could be because they work in a bar most of the time, love the ego strokes from trashy, desperate women. And even if they’re not that good… they are a legend in their own mind, they actually think they’re the next Bruce Springsteen, lol. Ughh.. makes me sick just thinking about it.
My ex always put his music first. Spent most of his $ he’d make at his actual job on studio time, etc… it’s not that I wanted to be first, but to be as equally important. We never went on vacation for years because he needed the $ for studio time, or… his house, or his pets.. yada, yada… he was first. Always.
So, I opted out, found a ‘real’ man.. not this ‘artist-type-legend in their own mind’, and we’re already planning a vacation together.
I have nothing against musicians, or people who are very passionate about being creative, but it seems more often than not, there are some pretty selfish/narcissistic ones out there. Statistically, their marriages don’t last very long. Just look at the famous musicians that you know of… how many times have they been divorced? not easy being with a die hard musician…
I love that my now bf has zero artistic abilities, lol. His passion… volunteering his time in the Red Cross, doing for people, not the other way around, in addition to his full time sales job traveling all over the state.
Quite a difference being w a selfless person who doesn’t think all high and mighty of himself and takes people for granted. We live in NJ, and for the past week all he’s been doing is driving around delivering food and water to people in need. I can imagine my ex.. strumming his guitar by candlelight… with some trashy chic next to him and his bong. lol.. so glad that’s over!!
Seriously, there’s so much better out there, just open your mind and your eyes!
Lelia , my ex mm was a musician , he wasnt married when i was first with him but its only six yrs later i clicked after coming on here bout hareem . He puts his band above all eles kids wife , everything very very selfish , loves gigging four nights out if seven because people both men and women blow smoke ip his bum . When he at wk hes mr average and he hates that . He has never grown up or matured and does what he does because he gets away with it , hes been caught with first wife and thrown out , got trapped by second girl coz she got pregnant three months into rlship started cheating on her a yr and hlf in and even though he married her has always cheated on her . Hell get caught and keep doing it till he can pull no more or he changes , times running out as he approaches his forties , you could never ever trust him he lies to everyone . Let someone eles be eaten up with the pain wondering who he texting, why he taking so long after a gig , etc etc a throughly nasty using piece of work . There are decent musicians out there but as everyone says you can tell by first few encounters wether someone is decent , i choose to go there knowing , no one put a gun to my head and i got burned till i looked b b q . Lol but thats my karma and now i have a fresh start to be a better person and choose a decent guy x hugs x
I couldn’t help but comment on your post. My ex EUM was a musician. Sounded like you were describing him to a t! except, he’s not married, we never were… just together for years. But there was always a few in the background. If he wasn’t getting his ego stroked about his music, and being the ‘lead singer’, he really wouldn’t know what to do with himself. It’s his life (he hates his average every day job), and nothing and no one gets in the way of it. Yes, I just finally woke up and got rid of an ego-maniac, narcissistic musician. Never again.
Leila, Tired, Demke — my ex EUM was also a musician! And I am, too. We met at a gig, and we really “clicked” in performance. I know from experience that the magic musical chemistry of performance rarely translates to “real life” beyond the stage and studio. And that’s ok – it doesn’t have to. But in my case, it seemed to. And it was very powerful.
What is confusing is that the wonderful magic stuff that a really good artist produces on stage is truly authentic in that it comes directly from some authentic place inside them, and that is what we respond to in the artists we love and admire. And yet, even though this quality is “true”, it does not necessarily mean they can manifest this quality anywhere else in their lives. Some artists do, many don’t.
My ex EUM was a generous, sensitive, attentive team player as a musician – ok, all professionals are to some extent or else they don’t work much. But he was really good. And, he also could light up the stage as a soloist/front man, with real depth and honest emotion of all kinds. Sublime. Very special. In real life? Kinda. Sometimes. Not sure. Good enough semblance for me to get hooked and confused.
Does this resonate with you? Maybe it doesn’t apply to your cases. I guess my point is that I hope you don’t beat yourselves up for being confused by the “performer” aspect of him. You may have been responding to something real, but ultimately irrelevant.
In my case (yes, now back to ME! I sound like my ex EUM!) part of the loss for me in cutting off the EUM is that I lose the really fruitful artistic collaboration we had. We are from different “worlds” and loved the cross-over exploration and growth. This was real and very nourishing and rewarding. And it adds to my overall confusion about him and us.
Maybe not very cogent – I am just thinking this through myself. You ladies are great. SallyJ
sally j
i think because they are used to performing they are so at ease with people .the ex mm was most confident behind a guitar , in average day life he just blends in . It gave him a reason to go out gig night and be free from responsibilty, as he would say ” i love it i go out have a laugh and no hassle ” hes been doing it years and flirting years so well practise . he doesnt have swarms dont get me wrong but he got a eye for the unhappy housewife , thats how he does it. Sally do what im doing if you love music , get out there enjoy it for yourself. im taking guitar at evening class and have promised myself to get up and do a song at a jam night . i think thats why i dated a couple of musos because i wanted to be what they are . hugs to you
I think emotionally unavailable people with a string of disastrous relationships decide to commit fully to someone only because they start to get self-conscious and concerned about their own behaviour. After many years of short-lived relationships, they know they are screwed up but don’t want to be seen as the screwed up guy in their network of friends and family. So, they grab the next available, good enough woman and make do. Of course, they’re still the same insincere loser, but instead of future faking, they’re faking true commitment. They’re just getting their needs met as usual – but this time the need is to appear normal, have the status of being married, make parents happy, or whatever.
When I read your post Kerry, I said, WOW. I believe that could possibly be the case with the last guy I was with. He was in his 50s, never married and very visible with his work and practically the only one in his circle that wasn’t or has never been married. Your reasoning sounds much more logical and right then my thinking that he woke up the day we split and decided to act like a person.
Kerry – thanks for this insight. My ex EUM had been divorced for 8 years when I met him. His ex wife had re-married. I remember he questioned me very closely once about people I knew who were divorced and re-married: ages, how many years between marriages, how many relationships between marriages, etc. I didn’t have much info to give him. I know he wanted to be married, and was sad that he had had a string of relationships that he considered “unsuccessful”.
The emotionally intimate affair between the ex and woman on plane ended after three months. They never met, although he pushed for that. However, he did begin to realize he had “a few problems”in terms of carrying this on and that she might start making demands. He carried on his insensitivity to me right until the end though by being more concerned about hurting her feelings, when he decided to cut it off. I think he mainly did it because he could see that he had started something he could not finish with her…rather than any clear insight about himself. He says he was just trying to “connect” with people, and he didn’t have any boundaries. Damn it, I have excused SO much of what he did.
Was he blowing this in my face on purpose? Good question. I don’t want to be naive but I actually, unbelievably think he was SO detached, so unconscious..(at the far far far end of this continuum) that he thought he had the right to completely disappear me even while chatting about how important it was for us to have a “fine relationship.” It was deplorable and disgusting and traumatizing that his knowledge of emotions, of relationships, of himself was so poor that he was like a blind person. Well, I made excuses for him, didn’t I?
Of course she, the woman on the plane, was only too willing to share the fantasy. Within a few weeks she was writing that she was thinking of him every day…that she would never forget him..that meeting him was something she would remember as very very special in her life…that her relationship with him could have been a real love etc. ..go figure. So he was the DRIVER of that relationship…of course he was. But she was crazy herself…or didn’t want to hear the true story that he was just separated and we were still in contact.
Being stupid or underdeveloped or mean, selfish and egotistical and abusive….doesn;’t make much difference to the victim…although it did confuse me. I never could write him off as an AC. But perhaps in the end he is because I experienced him as cruel, mean, egotistical and selfish anyway.
Anyway, he has now gone to therapy on his own, for himself and seems to be serious. Far too late for me/us but hope it works for him. The degree to which I can have contact with him in the future is something I need to decide and it will likely depend on whether he has evolved to some degree….
Expresso,
It doesn’t sound like he had any regard for anyone’s feelings – if he cared at all for hers he would not have led her up the garden path. At some level he must have known he was just off on a frolic to distract himself and provide some pain relief from his real life.
She may appear crazy to you but this happens a lot and I would characterise it as more foolish and naive. I see it more as having fallen for a con trick. Wanting to make easy money, and ignoring the red flags and abandoning prudence.
It sounds as though whatever he does or doesn’t do being around him at all is likely to be very painful. Perhaps a long period of NC to focus on yourself and build a new life, and then decide at the end of it whether you still are interested in any kind of friendship. As you say whether he is or isn’t an AC isn’t really the issue.
My mother had about 15 years NC with my father after their divorce and never looked back.
I can see that the ex mm hasnt changed as i look back he same with everyone just i couldnt see it , i think if id gone more gigs id seen it sooner , im glad in one way i didnt as i kept my own life my own i. Id be in a worser state if i had followed him around with his hareem . I wouldnt see it , and the hardest part as i go nc is tallying the man in the last few months , with the man bf. thsts the bit thst hurts the most how cruel he was , and how someone ive known for six yrs can just forget you just lke that . Men can switch off and judt get on with it , women tend to think think think. But it is getting better il know ill off days , but i catch myself laughing or singing or smiling and im okay , those last few months i was crying smoking , losing weight , fretting , anxious etc and id rather have all this hurt than anymore of that .x heres to week two of nc 🙂
Wow. Tired, I have to comment again because I never wanted to go to the ex’s gigs either. I think sub-consiously I was protecting myself. I didn’t want to see what was really going on behind my back. I couldn’t stand that his ‘gigs’ were a major source of his ego-stroking. I’m glad I don’t have to deal with that anymore.
he has very low self steem away from band , hes a mr average , hes been very fat and thin and fat . as he gets older and greying and receding the band provides him with the disatisfied women out there to flirt with , oh he loves being centre of attention. makes out he he cant leave coz of kids he always out gigging he doesnt have to but in his fantasy hes out like a single man. i look at it hes stays married and unhappy but cheating and will get caught or leave and do they same to someone eles with more mess , ie maintenance etc to pay thus staying in job he hates to pay for it all. plus ow then gets a dose of whats it like to have him all time and excitment soon wears off . ill get over it early stages for me but i can see ill be very careful if i date a muso again .or anyone any red flags and even if it hurts im walking . like to say i admire the gitl on here that got up and just left ac sat there , thats me in future .x
“That doesn’t dispute the bad behaviors in any given relationship, or dismiss the harm done, but it does, I think, allow for the possibility of self-redemption. However that kind of redemption, I’m sure, only comes with LOTS of hard work and dedication. It’s often neither easy nor pleasant to face oneself squarely in the mirror.” – Lawrence
Totally agree. However, what most of us are struggling with is believing that these men have in fact changed and continuing to internalize of all the wrong in the relationship. Clearly in order for one to change, as you have pointed out, takes time, hard work and introspection. These men go from one “relationship” to the next , uninterrupted and we are still questioning ourselves. Where’s the time for change? Where is the space for redemption?
The EUM/AC I was with became engaged to on-again/off-again ex-girlfriend, turned so-called friend of 15 years less than 5 days after we stopped seeing each other. Rather, I heard he was engaged that soon after; obviously he proposed BEFORE we were officially done. Aside from being completely humiliated and hurt, I thought I’d been the one who finally pushed him into marrying her. Hence “He’s changed…what’s wrong with me.”
Hindsight is 20/20 and of course there were code amber warnings I didn’t heed. Here was a man in his early 50s, 2 children with 2 different women, never been married and had only briefly lived with the woman he was off/on with for 15 years, had a harem, dated several woman that he’s worked with and had not been able to have a consistent long term relationship. He could not cook or do his laundry and when he was without a woman in his life, his mother would pick up the slack and cook dinner for him and do his laundry. I damn sure wasn’t cooking for him every night and told him he hadn’t earned the right for me to do in such a brief relationship. Also, I was the only woman that’s he dated in the past 30 years that he’s never slept with. So in hindsight, I did recognize something was off and did try to protect myself from getting burned too badly, but it wasn’t enough.
When we started dating, he told me that he had been broken up for over a year and he had dated other women before me. I thought it was safe to proceed. He told me he wanted to finally feel settled, etc. When I questioned him about his past relationships, some of them lasting several years, I realized that hey overlapped with the time he was supposedly in this 15 year relationship with his now-wife. When I questioned him about it, he stated that there were times when they were apart. I didn’t buy it, but I went along with it.
Still, I have questions. Did he really just suddenly realize after 15 years that she was “the one?” Did he want to get married, just not to me? Did he just marry her because she was essentially a doormat and put up with his crap as long as she had a title? At one point, while were dating, she vandalized his car, blocked him in his driveway and begged/cried for them to get back together. She’s in her late 40s/early 50s. Or did he marry her to further his political career to appear more stable? I know she was aware, of these other women. It’s not like he didn’t go outside with them. Some were booty calls clearly or jump-offs as we say in the U.S., but others had met his mother, children, siblings, etc. One of the reasons they broke up the last time was because she demanded that he marry her, according to him, which may give credence to Natalie’s statement that either the title makes it okay to accept the problems or will make them go away.
I do suffer from “If It Were Me I’d…” so while it may be hurtful, it’s easier for me to believe that it is true love and that he’s rewarding her for her loyalty. After all, I wouldn’t marry someone unless I was head-over-heels in love and certainly would never string someone along for over a decade. Since we did work together and many of my female co-workers were in the harem, it further fed into my belief that he was in fact THAT special and validated the fact that I was THAT special that he’d expressed interest in dating me. He could have anyone wanted after all. It was often remarked that maybe I would be the one to FINALLY make him settle down. I.ATE.ALL.OF.IT.
My older male friends are telling me that 1.) it doesn’t take 15 years to recognize true love; 2.) yes, some men do string women along for years; and 3.) he likely hasn’t changed and got married to appear more stable to further his political career. Incidentally, a month before things ended and the engagement, a scandal involving him dating an employee of his political rival erupted in the local paper since she was subsequently fired by her boss and filed a lawsuit against the city. This woman, who I was aware he dated, said she had a romantic relationship with him for over 7 years,(mind you he and ex were only broken up for a year at this point) and her boss was aware of it and since they were rivals, fired her for it once their rivalry became ugly…VERY MESSY.
Clearly he now looks like the stand-up guy to some and a stable family man for finally marrying his long-suffering, I mean long-time girlfriend after all these years. I guess she can spend her nights and weekends co-signing his character and dismissing any claims of infidelity.
Sleepingbeauty,
You offer a painfully accurate example of what is meant by They Don’t Change.
Imma beat this drum again if nobody here minds.
From the perspective of the woman who waited 15 years to, um, ‘win this loser’, he ran around behind her back relentlessly with many other women, including the woman in the rival’s camp. When he found out the lid was about to be publicly blown off their affair, he did a quick tidying up job on his personal life. He ended any other extraneous affairs (for now), because that’s more salacious grist to the local news mill, and started acting like he was committed in some way to the 15-year Waiting Wendy.
Why? Because he was forced into it. His marriage is all an act. He hasn’t changed. He’s not a new man. He’s just covering his ass at everyone else’s expense.
There is no ‘hard work’ to be done here. No ‘learning’. No ‘self discovery’. No ‘mistakes to take note of so that he gets it right next time’. I bet he’d crack a rib laughing at the very suggestion.
Why? Because he was more true to himself juggling two, three, or god knows how many women at once in the last few years because that’s the situation he painstakingly constructed for himself. That was the greatest masterpiece of his life, his pride and joy, this tower of women all competing for his time and attention. That’s exactly what he wanted and what he got. In his eyes, nothing will ever amount to that greatness in terms of deep personal expression and achievement. Not his current wife, not his current marriage, not any grinning family children peeping out from behind the white picket fence and Sammy the puppy licking their faces for the benefit of the local newspaper photographer — none of it. Because that’s not the ‘real him’. The ‘real him’ was and is exactly the man you were mixed up with. And even Waiting Wendy will know that it won’t be long and he’ll be back at it with x-number of other women. Why? Say it with me. Because the best indicator of a man’s future behavious is his past behaviour. You got it.
Griselda
Ha ha.
Some of them are indeed as happy as a pig in shite, (although they may have a very convincing facade as sensitive, caring, ethical, feminist blah blah blah) so why would they want to change?
It works for them. They aren’t, really, looking for THE ONE at all.
I am not entirely certain whether this was the case with the person I was involved with (although there are indications that it was)
I don’t intend to carry out any further investigation, analysis or
research in that area. It really doesn’t seem to matter too much any more, what he is and what he does, although when I sometimes read things here that give me a start of recognition. I think it cumulatively helps to prevent romanticising the whole pile of crap. I still have thoughts, like static, in the background, but the volume has really diminished recently.
“Why? Because he was more true to himself juggling two, three, or god knows how many women at once in the last few years because that’s the situation he painstakingly constructed for himself. That was the greatest masterpiece of his life, his pride and joy, this tower of women all competing for his time and attention. That’s exactly what he wanted and what he got. In his eyes, nothing will ever amount to that greatness in terms of deep personal expression and achievement. Not his current wife, not his current marriage, not any grinning family children peeping out from behind the white picket fence and Sammy the puppy licking their faces for the benefit of the local newspaper photographer — none of it. Because that’s not the ‘real him’.”
Grizelda
Pure genius.
“At one point, while were dating, she vandalized his car, blocked him in his driveway and begged/cried for them to get back together. She’s in her late 40s/early 50s.”
I literally died laughing when I read this line. I think your analysis shows you are moving in the right direction, but if you need anymore reason to believe yourself, just remember what this lady has done because of this guy’s behavior. I won’t even consider seeing a guy like that if there was someone in the background vandalizing his property (so that they could get back together; go figure; I am dying laughing about this). Like this is all a serious joke and I’m happy you are on your way to seeing this guy for who he is and the chaos of women’s lives in the background that you will never want to be like again.
I remember with the first guy I was head over heals with I finally just busted everything that he had done to me out into the open. I was a total wreck. My mental health was finished. And like the icing on the cake, he blocked talking to me, said I was “boring and insecure”, walked all over me, shamed me, stereotyped me and never talked to me ever again. Seriously strange to think about, since I’m still trying to get over him and it has been almost two years since the end of the things we had together. I never want to be at that kind of low in my life ever again. I will remember this anecdote and hope that if I find myself in a compromising situation again in future, I will never stoop so low as to vandalize and then plead with him to come back to me. Talk about insanity!
Sleeping, love this..”I guess she can spend her nights and weekends co-signing his character and dismissing any claims of infidelity.” That is exactly what happens when we stay with these ac’s, everyone else thinks they’re must be ‘good’ because we are still there.
I’m not sure if Nat has covered this at some point, but I am wondering if there is a difference between emotional immaturity and emotional unavailability. Do emotionally immature guys eventually grow up and become emotionally unavailable or do they actually demonstrate a real change in their behavior as they mature? There is a big age difference between the ex and I (he’s 20) and while his family is in agreement the way he treated me is wrong, I have also heard the “He’s just immature, he needs to grow up” reasoning. His own mother said I was “too much of a woman” for him. Can a guy seem EU when he’s younger, but then mature and actually give all of himself to a relationship? Or is EU due to deep rooted issues? My ex definitely has some issues (he resents his mom and feels unloved by his family).
Books,
That’s a very interesting set of questions.
On one hand, I found that my EUM would definitely ‘regress’ to a dumbfounded childish state when in a situation that involved other people’s feelings. Lacking any empathy or feelings himself, he’d stiffly put a hand on my shoulder for a moment, with nothing to say. Or he’d regress to an adolescent state by saying things like “So, er, does this mean that you hate me now?” or “Is this the same as that time about a year ago when you showed a flash of anger to me about something I think I must’ve done or said?”. It all added up to “What, you think I did something wrong?”.
Scientists say there’s something physically wrong with the frontal cortex amygdala in men who are clinically unable to feel any sophisticated emotions, so he was really grasping for some kind of conditioned response that could fit the situation. But as soon as yucky talk about feelings was out of the way, he was back to his intellectually strong adult self and was much more comfortable.
The theory is that young children (who haven’t yet developed a fully operational amygdala) and psychotic adults (whose amygdala is permanently non-operational) only mimic the behaviour of higher emotions like ’empathy’ and ‘love’ so that they get good responses from those around them. They don’t actually feel these things, they just pretend that they do because their parents/partners/friends/associates encourage them and reward them with things they want. The difference between the two groups is that children don’t have any intellect, so they don’t know or care that grownups can see they’re just faking it — while adults do have an intellect, so they can be very clever indeed in the way they cover up their lack of genuine emotion and try to appear normal.
But in the majority of people, by age 14-15, the amygdala ought to be firing away normally and providing them with genuine empathetic feelings like love and respect — and they genuinely behave accordingly.
I’m not sure what it means for your 20 year old ex. That’s still an age for some kind of emotional development — the residue of immaturely still wafts about many 20 year olds. He might be EU on a permanent basis, in which case that’s totally un-mendable now and forever. Or it might be a case of him not knowing how to navigate relationships properly, in which case it might be the right relationship at the wrong time. Or it might be that he does indeed have some emotional growing up to do because he doesn’t have enough life experience and context going on to connect feelings with meanings and know what he wants.
Books, my experience is that EUMs get weirder as time goes by, not healthier. Lately I´ve met a string of EUM/ACs in their 40s who behave as teenagers relationship-wise. Some of them even reverted to living with their mom.
Perhaps your 20 year old needs some growing up to do, but I remember there were commited guys when I was that age. Even if things didn´t end up in marriage, they were able to sustain a loving, respectful relationship. The guys who never had a stable girlfriend still don´t have lasting relationships, 20 years later.
And worse, they don´t want to have one, and by this time know all the tricks to avoid getting emotionally involved while obtaining all the benefits of a loving relationship.
Demeke im glad you did , be proud you walked , it took me a long time if i called him on it he would turn from loveable to cold hearted in a click and id back down . When i was on and on bout other women ie just saying is it true ill walk ? I got this ” if you dont want to talk for a couple of weeks thats okay as long as were friends ” wooried id blab or do somthing , annd when he became fully involved with her he went cold in a instant . Im glad i told him to his face i was out of there , he said you could punch me in face i looked at him like he crap on my shoe said ” im not like that , i said youve treatedevlike s***t these last couple of yrs and he said you can tell me to f**k off so i did . He no longer cared as he had new fall back girl so he could be as shitty to me as he wanted . It still hard to tally it up but thats the learning and healing i have got to go through . Its slowly killing off and good feelings i have for him , i wont hate him as that wont do me any good . Sad i wasted 6 yrs but glader it wasnt longer . Hoping as i got my lesson hell one day get his , i dont want to be a bitter vengeful person i want to be someone a whole heap better 🙂
I need someone to talk to you.
This is exactly like what I’m going through. After nearly a year my ex EUM has returned. I was really jealous of his new relationship because he seemed to be treating his new girl like a princess. Well now that he’s back he’s been saying that he regrets hurting me. And he feels like all the things he’s been doing for his new gf he should be doing for me. And he was talking about us getting back together. The thing is though he still hasnt broken up with his gf. Now all the old insecure feelings are coming back. I feel rejected every day that passes that he’s still with her. I’m feeling like I’m betraying myself. And I’m scared I get hurt again. I feel bad talking to him. But when I try to stop all I feel bad too. I’ve started having anxiety attacks again. I don’t know what to do to. Advice?
Anna
He’s not treating her like a princess if he’s sniffing around you. He is being disloyal to her as he was to you. stay away.
and I would add a general comment re these people not wanting a committed relationship with YOU,but instead are able to have a proper relationship with the next person who is The One. It may not be as clear cut as that. Sometimes they do want a relationship with you , and sometimes they don’t, sometimes they want to break up and sometimes they don’t, they want a new girlfriend and yet they don’t, they want to get back together, yet they don’t. Cut yourself loose from their to-ing and fro-ing. And cut yourself loose from your own.
I don’t think there is any such thing as the one. we all thought HE was the one, now we know he’s not. Two relationship ready people need to come together at the right time and commit to making it work, while still having love, which you can’t legislate for. It’s not about sifting through people for the magic person. Not for you and not for him either.
Yes people can change, absolutely, and you’ll know you have when you no longer care, yay, and you know he has when he leaves you the hell alone. Happy days!
Grace:
“Sometimes they do want a relationship with you , and sometimes they don’t, sometimes they want to break up and sometimes they don’t, they want a new girlfriend and yet they don’t, they want to get back together, yet they don’t.”
Absolutely! These are precisely my thoughts about all of this. This is why these people are such mind-effery. It takes a while to get it, but when you do it’s as clear as day. I remember telling my ex EUM within weeks of meeting him that he seemed to be very ‘fickle’. I was spot on. It’s not so much that we wnt them to change – it’s that we want them to stay the effing same for more than two hours at a time! For these people to change, they have to became consistent and juts because he’s got a “new” girlfriend doesn’t make him consistent – the operative word is ‘new’! New girlfriend, same shite.
walk , run away please my ex mm did this do when i first found out about ow , we must have both dissapeared at same time but he chose to use me as i was safer bet having been a quiet good little girl all those yrs and then the ow came back and i just knew , dont enter tain him , i became thin smoked alot , ill anxious , fretting etc etc horrible horrible .You are worthy of a proper relation ship say ” i will not under take a relationship with any one whos still in a relationship or leaving one , show some respect for your present girlfriend and me and stop edgeing your bets both of us deserve better . ” if he walks you know the calibre of the man and do you want a man that can do this youd never trust him and that is a major part of a relationship . 🙂
Anna,
Your self-esteem is trying to protect you from him. Listen to your self-esteem.
At risk of sounding like a book saleswoman for Natalie (I promise you she’s not paying me commission!), I have to recommend you read ‘Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl’. It’s a treasure and it will help you right now.
My (free!) advice is: Listen to your self-esteem that’s trying to protect you. Beware of what he’s trying to do in turning you into a fallback girl, a booty call, or add you to his list of midnight text-a-shags. Beware of your responses to him that might lead him to believe you’d be okay with that. Because surely you’re not okay with that, right?
If he misses you emotionally, and if he genuinely believes that dumping you was the worst mistake of his life emotionally, physically, intellectually and mentally, he can start replacing hollow words with solid action. He can start acting like he wants you back, not just saying that he wants you back. He can make a clean break from his gf if that was such a big mistake. He can get his own place and/or disentangle whatever entanglements are there (photos of her stuck to his fridge, clothes left at his/hers, toothbrushes huddling together in the same toothbrush caddy, whatever). He can get some counselling or therapy or whatever it takes for his issues. Your part would be to stand by as observer and watch, nothing more. When he’s accomplished all that and can prove to your satisfaction it’s all for you, then maybe… maybe… you can commence discussions.
But you know what, Anna? We’re talking so much on this thread about ‘the best indicator of a man’s future behaviour is his past behaviour’ — and that stands true for your exEUM. Know that he will generally continue right along the same path with you as he did the first time, and on the same path he has trodden with the current gf. Is that what you want? Are you sure? Please think hard about this.
Natalie, Thanks for this post. I needed to hear all of this. It reaffirms that I’m not crazy and what he did was and is still shady, regardless if he’s turned into the best person to have walked this planet…and I haven’t heard an (real) apology from him. While I realize that I must have been/ am equally messed up to have chosen to be in a relationship with him, I understand that it pre-dates to me being raised a certain way… I could never stand up for myself because my dad had a really bad temper. He’s a jackass and will always be a jackass to me. To ask me if I was seeing someone after a year of NC is kind of a no brainer question.
Thanks for the help! 🙂
So now, that you are finally maintaining NC, you can eject him and all things involving him out of your brain. As I’ve told you before, and you don’t or won’t listen. NC is not just an action. It is an complete shift in mentality. That means stop talking about him, his wife, his OW all getting their due. Who cares whether they do or not. Wishing and hoping for revenge is keep you stuck. You continue to be way too emotionally invested in someone who you say and (supposedly) really believe is a CREEP. Talk about YOU, NOT HIM. He is not a part of your life anymore, so stop rehashing the same crap about him over and over again. Have you read Natalie’s book? Mr. U & the FBG? The Dreamer Fantasy ebook? Have you signed up for her esteem class? What are you doing other than lieing in bed, licking your wounds? Tell, us about the progress you are making within YOU. He’s OUT. LET IT GO!
Tired, I know I sound like the most insensitive B—- on BR. But, this perpetual wallowing in self-pity because he’s an AC, know what it does for you? ZERO!!!!!!!!!!!
i signed my self up for a english olevel being going a month , seeing a councillor , attending evening class and raisng my kids . so im far from laying in bed wallowing in self pity . ive had this happen a couple of weeks ago and been nc one week so yep im processing 6 yrs into a matter of weeks and feeling all sorts of crap.if its the wrong way so be it but ill get there at my own pace .
Tired, whatever you do, don´t give in to the self-pity! That is the most self-destructive thing to do. It also makes you feel weak when you need all your energy to get out of this hole.
Instead, try to get angry! It won´t be pleasant but you´ll get over him much faster and on your own two feet.
So, whenever you start to feel like a victim, think: “he´s an asshole” “he needs a punch in the nose” “he´s a complete loser, and smelly too” – whatever works for you.
Tired
Good for you. You are trying to help yourself and in time this will pay off. Do some nice things for yourself as well as dutiful things – hot baths, nice meals, that kind of thing. You will get over it, but it will take time.
thankyou, im at the angry stage but i am getting better. im also getting more organized as well as i start to re focuses . yes im not a victim and no i dont think kindly about the douche bag at all now .
Having read this article and all the comments to date. (there are some painful stories and I wish for you all love, light and happiness)
What has occured to me is how much I have changed with regards to my wants, needs, expectations, belief system, worth and values as a result of these relationships/entanglements/experiences.
In the past I would stay on the same street as crazy, invite them in and tend the wounds. My then lack of self understanding always resulted in me being shocked when that person turned out (again) to be a snarling, spitting, greedy and selfish flea ridden stray. My feelings of abandonment, lack of love and need to be needed meant that I let them stay in my life,tolerated some awful times and would bend, change, put my had back in the fire in an attempt to fix the uncontrollable. It slowly occured to me over the last 6 years that I continued to be at the front and centre of these experiences. It was at that point that I willingly accepted the need to look back at my past and discarded what was not mine and heal what was. During this time I recieved many tests; it was of course easier to believe that all the hurt stemmed from that relationship. In truth the hurt was much deeper, older and longer than any intimate relationship I have been in. I have choosen not to invite back anything/one into my life that I now consider unhealthy. I have also decided not to seek closure.
Maya Angelou was on to something when she said that “When people show you who they are believe them the first time” so now when I see crazy across the street, I run or walk in the opposite direction.
Good for you Sophia! You prove people can change, you also prove how hard it is and that the person must really want it and it is still hard work. The people who drove us to change, however, IMHO have it pretty good..they are the users, not the victims, so I see very little impetus on their part; to change. The point to take away, don’t wait for them to change, don’t expect them to change.
Uff… I have reached the 2 months and a half NC milestone. I feel proud of that, but instead of getting easier, i find its getting back to being harder. I have these feelings of gealousy towards the new girl EUM has and I cant seem to shake it off. I understand this post with my brain but my heart just won t let go. Im stuck and I know its stupid to be stuck.
I fear I wasnt loveable, he rejected me so many times in obvious ways and less than obvious ways. While with the ne new girl he is affectionate, or so my friends tell me. I really hope its a show,I really hope he s just blowing hot, because if its real,its impossible for me to not be rejected and hurt all over again. Please God, please let it be fake and rotten, like he was with me, or else how could I live with the thought that I couldnt bring the affectionate side of him out. I didnt deserve that, she did?
I am perfectly aware of how ridiculous my thouths sound like, but still…I cant help it.
I think it has to do with the fact that somewhere, deep inside I still think he was a catch, he was a prince, it was just me who messed up from day one. Otherwise, he would have made space for me, like he has for this girl who is now treated like a queen probably.
How do I get out of this state? I cry everyday, I obsess, cant seem to find anyone I like at all (!!?) and I rehash and replay events and conversations in my head.
Does it ever go away? I mean..Wasnt NC supposed to be the secret of happines?? How long does it take, does anyone know, until I get that happy breezy moving on feeling? Cause Ive gotten so tired of waiting for it….
Help!
deedeeinamsterdam,
“like he has for this girl who is now treated like a queen probably.”
PROBABLY.
You don’t know this. Did he treat you like a queen in the beginning? I reckon he did or did a little at the least, otherwise you wouldn’t have got attached to him, right?
Then why would this new fling end any different? Maybe it’ll take longer, maybe shorter, but really, deep down you know = “please let it be fake and rotten, like he was with me”= no person is fake with somebody and real with another. Just doesn’t happen!
You fear you weren’t lovable enough?
If you weren’t, you would know this of yourself. Don’t base your own conclusions about yourself on thin air and assumptions either. I know and understand you feel rejected again, if it’s serious with the other girl or not, but really, it’s not about you. They just can’t cope with not getting their ego in check as soon as possible, it’s not about you nor is it about the new girl. It’s about him.
And most importantly, do NOT let your friends talk about him, tell them explicitly not to. Do NOT check this man out. Do NOT do this to yourself, you have absolutely NO need to know.
It sets you back, every little thing you hear or know. Close it off. Make it as impossible as you can get it.
Do not let this man hurt you any more, even through second hand information.
It will get better this way much sooner that you think. It’s hard, really hard, but it gets better at an even pace.
Thank you Sofie. Its true, he was treating me nice in the beginning. Or maybe I was so starved for affection, I too anything as being fantastically romantic. Low self esteem…low expectations.
Yes he always had his ego in check, hooked up with the girl almost the day I went NC on him. and after 2 days I told him just how much I want him back and like him, in the sweetest, most honest way.
I ll stick to your advice. No more checking for info, I squeezed it out of my friends and it burnt. BAD
Hi deedee
It does take time and it does take proper NC without reports and updates on his activities from “friends”. I know how tempting it is to find out but it retraumatises you every time and prevents you focussing on yourself. I went on googling the person and looking at pictures. I’ve stopped. Its the little things, the devil is in the detail, of how you spend your time, that cumulatively will make the difference. Find new sociable activities that have no association or connection with him. There is no one answer. I dreamed of him again last night but I still woke feeling okay and I feel happy today because the sun is shining and I’m off work for the kids school holidays, we have nice plans for the rest of the day. This time last year I was constantly obsessing, I mean I could think of nothing else. I can’t say I am completely over it and I am sure that if I had any contact or information it would set me right back. Like you, in spite of everything, I still kind of have him on a pedestal. It doesn’t matter really, as long as you’re focussing more and more on your own stuff and liking yourself.
Put you on a pedestal. Be someone you can look up to!
Oh Mymble, it feels so good not to be alone in this. What is this?? Healing? Hurting some more? Psichosis? Im scared because I ve always been a cool, in control girl, always with a plan and a reasonable atittude. Even in front of failure. But this I CANNOT believe. I cant believe how my life has been turned upside down because of this experience. I think I am now healing for all the wounds from the past, because I NEVER cried so much, I dont understand where tears come from all the time its ridiculous 🙂
I am trying to pamper myself, to be kind to me and as many other as possible, I have cleaned my life of negative friends and im doing my best at the job that I neglected. I really feel im doing better, but the crying is like a freakin fountain!! I have made a few new friends and oddly I have connected a bit with my mother..
So maybe there is hope for me too.
I wish you a wonderful Holiday with the kids. If you got out of it, you rock!!
deedeeinamsterdam
Does it ever go away Yes eventually. The feeling breezy and moving forward tends to not happen all in one go. In the meantime what you feel is real and not ridiculous. I have no doubt that others me included have felt the way you are feeling now, it is an honet reaction to a painful experience. You will let go when it is time to let go and then you will make space for you.
Remember to treat yourself like the queen you are. Stick with the NC and if you can ask friends to stop sharing updates about his new relationship with you.
Thank you Sophia. I read your success story. Very very cool. I think this silly non-relationship scratched something much bigger, otherwise I cant explain where all this hurt comes from, the man didnt do so much damage, compared to the stories I read here. But to me it felt like I got hit by a bus :))
I felt very well before the amigos gave me an update so clearly, that is not something that I need.
What I did need were your kind words, and you gave me just that!
NC no matter what!
@DeeDee
I takes a long time, I have conversations with my dude in my head daily. But one thing that I have learned from BR is that this is not love but some sort of obsession or compulsion or both.
So this is what I tell myself, that this isn’t a great love that I somehow messed up, this is a great love that I somehow made up; something that never really was. Given that perspective it makes it easier to turn my thoughts away from him and on to living my life.
I have also given him a signature tune that I think of when I think of him which helps. You Jerk by Kim Stockwood.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sVWOrhxpZk
I just hum along with the chorus. It makes me smile every time.
“You jerk
You jerk
You are such a jerk
There are other words
But they just don’t work”
Soozie,
That’s hilarious!
Love the backing vocal guys too! It’s so good I’d like to send it to my own personal jerk (but I won’t).
Muahahaha Soozie the song is perfect. And I also laughed when you mentioned the conversations! Thank God I am not alone and hopefully not going crazy. I did make it all up its true, that much I know, he even told me in other words.
That was his excuse and defence. he was always “honest” with me…but still dragged me along while telling me he doesnt want a relationship. Cruel but honest. Said he enjoyed my company. Im pretty sure he did because I am a great company! I cant imagine how that girl, whom I know, can be cuter and funnyier and sexier than me. cause she cannot. thats what puzzles me. He went serious with the lesser option. Hope she drags him down to the dephth of her boring, boring world and eats him alive.
Cruel me no? :))
DeeDee,
You mentioned that you don’t fancy anyone else you currently know —
But have you really thought about stepping forward to find a romantic replacement? It’s been a couple of months for you, and it may be a couple more months before you find someone else. But it would be nice, wouldn’t it? It’s a bit like getting a new job — a new job does everything to boost you up and make you forget all about the troubles and agony of your previous job. Give it a chance?
Ejane.
The ex you have referred to has been through a series of very traumatic experiences. If all you’ve said is factual and has hit him in rapid succesion, it is understandable that he begin pulling away. You said you understood his situation, and I don’t know how long you’ve been involved before all of his crises began. But, it sounds to me that this has been very bad timing to pursue a relationship and to expect much participation from him. My guess is that his hanging out at the gym and with friends is his way of trying to cope with his losses, accompanying grief, fear of untimely intimacy with you, and attempting to avoid pressure and additional stress. However, when you describe him as seemingly having had interest in another woman, while he was still in a committed (?) relationship with you, you make a valid point that he’s not worthy of you at this time, and maybe never be. I think it is difficult to judge what a person’s intentions are currently and future at a time such as this. I lost my Mom 5 months ago. It threw me into a tailspin and I didn’t know which end was up. Same when my husband passed away six years ago. At times like that romance and emotional intimacy/committment are not a priority. IMHO, I would not concern myself too much about this other woman. I don’t think she’ll get much more out of him than you have because, frankly, I don’t think this man has a clue right now what he really wants. Consequently, you need to just give him his space and time, while you move on and live your life productively. You’ve tried to be there for him, but sometimes that just is not enough.
Hi Tinkerbell
Thanks for the response. All of these things happened to him while we were dating. Honestly, his grandmother passing away didn’t seem to bother him at all…not nearly as much as losing his friend. I didn’t find out until after he died that his friend lives in my neighborhood. I never met him, and my ex told me they had not hung out much in the last several years, but they were roommates after college.
I know when we were dating, I was very sensitive to everything he was going through. I’ve never experienced some of these things with anyone else, and it’s hard to know what to do/say and when/how to say anything. I asked him during the relationship if he needed some space or time away from ‘us’ and he repeatedly said no. In fact, just 3 months ago he told me he didn’t want to move away for a job, because he didn’t want to leave me or his family.
Aside from his stress, I tried to assess my own happiness with the relationship by separating the things that happened to him vs. the actual person. He always showed up on time to meet his workout buddies at the gym, but he was perfectly ok showing up at my door 20-30 minutes late for a date. He often texted his friends while we were eating dinner. He was quick to help someone with broken household items, but he never really helped me around the house. He had strange relationships with other women, including some that he had dated briefly. He hardly ever made weekend plans with me – we hung out every weekend, but it wasn’t like we spent the entire time getting to know each other. There were plenty of occasions when his words didn’t equal his actions. Being in a stressful situation doesn’t mean he should get a free pass for being neglectful.
In regards to this other girl, we both really liked her, but I did notice during the trip, my ex was flirting with her a little. He was surprised his friend did’t want a relationship with her, and he made the comment “If I was single, I would ask her out.” –not something you say in front of your GF. I let him know I didn’t appreciate his behavior toward her, and he apologized. I talked to her on the phone several times after the trip, and she was very upset the relationship with his friend didn’t work out. She had friended both of us on FB, and he let it slip one night that he chatted with her, and they ended up talking on the phone about his friend. Even though it upset me, I didn’t really say anything about it – but after that, he never mentioned her again.
When we were breaking up, my ex brought up a few things he had never said to me before. He told me I was hard to read and he felt like I held my feelings back. I’m sure this was from the months of not knowing how to address issues with him. But why wait a year to tell me that? Why not ask or try to fix the problem when you notice it’s an issue? For the most part, I felt like he was really trying to say “I can’t be there physically/emotionally/financially right now.” Not just for me, but for anyone. I’ve had times in my life when I knew I wasn’t ready for a relationship, so I didn’t date or made my intentions clear if I was dating. I just can’t understand why he would try to start a new relationship, when he really needs to be focusing on himself.
Hi Grizelda,
I beg to differ that people never change. I’ve seen people make profound changes & sustain them over many decades. I am also one of those peple. It can indeed be done. It takes genuine committment & a lot of work however. I would agree though that the typical EU / AC is unlikely to possess any such such motivation to change.
I’m at the cynical end of the spectrum, I know!
But I believe people genuinely EU are that way because they just are that way. No amount of hard work, no amount of learning, no amount of effort is ever going to alter the fact he’s (a) uninterested; (b) a player; (c) damaged; (d) married and cheating; (e) attached and cheating; (f) misogynist; (g) cognitively immature; (h) psychopathic. These are the people who are EU forever, and still women tear themselves into shreds thinking they can cause them to change somehow.
This is different from unrequited love — those who only appear to be EU but really just didn’t reciprocate the same amount of love their partner felt for them. I don’t think that makes them unavailable per se — they’re available alright, just not feeling it as much as the gf/bf would like. If that’s the case, yes I agree their behaviour and attitude is fixable with effort so that they don’t do any harm and they learn how to treat people with greater respect… if, as you say, they’re motivated to do so. But that’s solely their behaviour and attitude to work on, and how to navigate relationships correctly. Stringing along someone they don’t love for years, not extricating themselves properly from incompatible matches, belitting or causing grief deliberately as a show of strength, not knowing how to curtail bad behaviour, or setting up lovesick exes as easy booty call — all this kind of stuff and more is improveable if they’re motivated to be decent people rather than assclowns. As you say, though, highly unlikely.
I dunno, Griz – I think that your first (unchanging) list reads much like your (changing) second list – what’s the difference between someone who can cheat on their partner and someone who strings someone along for years? Aren’t they both doing moreorless the same thing?
IMO, you either believe that people – ALL people – are worthy of care and respect – or you believe that people are only worthy of care and respect if it will directly benefit YOU and/or you can’t get away with not showing it. That’s the difference between the two states as far as I can see.
Here’s my take on it: ANYONE can change if they choose to do it, but they’re not going to choose to do it without a significant incentive. And, when you think about what it takes to turn somebody from a person who doesn’t see the value in treating people (in general) well to someone who does, that’s going to have to be a SIGNIFICANT incentive.
(In the EUM’s case, this turned out to be a suicide attempt + becoming a father + the introduction of nice shiny new start… that’s a lot of upheaval for one person).
I agree that there are probably some people who are too badly damaged/mentally ill to ever change or realise the error of their ways. But I think there are far more who could but won’t, on account of it’s dead easy to up sticks, mess people about and run away when the going gets tough. Instead they can go through life cherry-picking all the nice easy parts of relationships and avoiding the challenging parts. Who wouldn’t? They probably don’t even know what they’re missing out on.
The point is, I think, that if someone is treating YOU badly, then they aren’t going to change for YOU. No matter what you do, because it isn’t about you, it’s about them. Also because they’ll know that they can get away with it and also because, in allowing them to treat you badly, you devalue yourself in their eyes.
Little though I liked it, I do not blame Son’s Dad in the slightest for wanting to practice his nice new ideas and behaviours on someone who would be impressed by them, rather than hardbitten and cynical (by then) old me. I was never going to trust him an inch and he knew it.
Loving men like this so much that you’ll put up with their rubbishy behaviour is a trap. They might like the trap very much, but it serves as a disincentive to move on and become available or healthy. And in the meantime it eats you up until there’s nothing left.
I think there’s a difference between EU and lack of values. I think these should be separate, and all lumped in together.
All the ladies on this site were/are EU, does that mean they can’t change? I was EU, and have now changed. It can happen.
I meant: not all lumped together.
I also, do not want to forget our male audience.
deedeeinamsterdamn,
I feel your pain. When it comes to getting over a traumatic experience, it’s us who will blow hot and cold. I am the same way. Some days, I feel fine and light and I don’t think about it and other days…not so much. Just be confident that each day that passes it is getting better. Think of other obstacles you have overcome in your life where you thought “this is the worse thing that could ever happen to me,” then you got over it until the next worse thing happened. Healing will happen, but it will sneak up on you. One day you will hear his name and there will be no emotion attached to it.
May that day come, and soon, Sleeping Beauty. I need it. Ive been heartbroken before and now cant even imagine why I was so devastated about the guy, he wasnt that special. But this one, is something else, he may not be special, but this process Im going through sure is, Im trying to wrap my mind about what exactly triggered such a violent reaction in heart. The ego bruised and dented, the rejection? the other girl, the abandonment? me humiliating myself,fear of being alone forever? plain old loneliness and boredom? what was it that is causing me so much pain? cause it cant possibly be only this poor guy. This depression is way bigger and im fighting it with my hands tied cause i dunno what it is. There we go again, fountain of tears :)) But worry not, I have taken the habit of carrying tissues with me at all time!
Unlike Scarlet O Hara, who never had one when she was crying left and right 🙂
Thank you!!!
Question for all: Have any of you gone back to seeing the AC for a shag only or to redefine the relationship on YOUR terms? And did it work? Such as, an arrangement such as friends only for company or shag only? Say that you now realize that you don’t even have time for a normal relationship but the physical stuff was great and once in awhile for that doesn’t sound bad at all because there isn’t any non assclowns hanging around as of late. I know some have gone back to AC with the same expectations and of course have been sadly disppointed that nothing has changed. Well, what if YOU have changed what YOU want?
JR
I went back numerous times. Managing down your own expectations is demeaning and whatever you think you can deal with, will be able to put up with, they will give you less and worse. They will always disappoint, whatever capacity they are in. Demoting yourself to Booty call will eat away at your self esteem.
There’s a lot of posts here about that that say it all much better than I could.
oops I responded but didn’t ‘reply’.
JR
That´s a trap you´re setting for yourself, don´t do it! You´re trying to convince yourself you want something different than you used to, just to keep dancing the sick dance. But it´s just an excuse and you´re not doing things on YOUR terms, you are just giving him permission to treat you like a complete doormat or worse.
I hope so, Tired. Yes, we all have to progress at our own pace, but we have to make a sincere start, and that is by ridding ourselves of fantasy, controlling out-of-control thoughts like worrying if his wife and OW got their “fix” (whatever that may be) for the day. Good luck.
Thankyou tinkerbell , it was just a phase , im feeling more positive now and calmer and stronger as each day passes . And when i relaspe i dont get wishy washy , i say i want somthing better and it passes .:)
There are so many golden nuggets in this thread for me.
I never saw the OW as being the original driver of the emotionally intimate affair…it was all him and as he admitted to me later, it could have and would have been anybody he met who seemed to “connect” with him post break-up (now that he had taken off his wedding ring etc.)
That IS so sad for the OW – golly he should have had a P for Penis pinned on his chest as somebody once said on another post. But he denied it was sexual (go figure). However the OW also ignored a lot of red flags and then ended up moving much much faster than he did with her professions at the end and her unwillingness to let the relationship go (I don’t understand why you are ending it and it isn’t necessary etc) Ultimately though he drove it and he encouraged it…even in his “good-bye letter” which was written without HIM taking responsibility for the events. I think he sort of thought he could just get what he wanted by “being honest” – you know, “I don’t want anything serious but if we do sleep together that would be wonderful.”
In the case of this particular man emotional immaturity and unavailability were wrapped up together. Although a grown man, he didn’t seem to have a clue about his emotional life or mine. It was confusing to me because he was decent and civil, we had many great experiences together, plus he was a great and involved father and the children, now adults, love him. He has many good surface qualities but his emotional detachment and lack of boundaries made him unreliable and untrustworthy and sometimes cruel(to me). He said he didn’t understand and I experienced it as cruel.
I just couldn’t stand up for my emotional rights and self because it wasn’t always clear to me what was happening…It was clear in my body and my heart but my head kept talking me out of it.
He is now in therapy – for the FIRST time for himself, although he has been in therapy many times before and says he needs and wants to change, talking about his new insights, saying he understands what an idiot he was. He also is claiming he really understands, appreciates and loves me in a way he didn’t before. It all feels weird and uncomfortable to me…unreal (after 4 therapy sessions?) and I am not being drawn into it or into “relationship building” again. (my turn for emotional detachment 🙂 My interests are different – figuring out how I am going forward and deciding if and how I want him in a relationship. I think my living the most productive, interesting and fulfulling life I can while being true to my own values is all I can do right now. I haven’t figured out all that this will look like.
I am not closed off in communication with him but I know longer “work” at the relationship or “ask” anything from him. It feels much much better. How or if he puts his new insights into action….well, time will tell and that will determine the distance I need to to finally put between us. I hope we can have a more authentic and caring relationship because I sure have spent time on it, it would help in all sorts of ways and be easier on the kids. But it may not happen and in the meantime I want/need to protect myself. I think I am doing this the hardest way and it may not be the best way…still working on that.
I’ve never posted before, but this post hits so close to home right now. I am 15 months post breakup and I’m still struggling. My EX is now on his 4th g/f – yet this one seems different, he is much more serious with her than the other ones and I can’t help but obsess over the idea that he is a new improved, changed man for her? Like she is so fantastic he will never cheat on her like he did to me. I’m not sure if my EX was emotionally unavailable but he most definately was an AC, he cheated on me 3x over the course of our 7 year relationship and never wanted to discuss marriage.
I don’t want him back. I don’t miss him or love him. Our relationship was so toxic and I glad to be out of it! It just hurts that he has moved on and appears to have all this new found happiness and I don’t. I’m still here sorting through the aftermath and he’s having the time of his life!
Confused,
How do you know he is on his 4th GF?
I am aware of 3 other women he “casually” dated over the last year, the most recent one seems much more serious than the other ones. How do I know….heard via friend of friend, ran into them at a bar and more pathetically, I’ve actually been cyber stalking him, her and mutual friends to obtain information.
I know I need to stop, but I can’t – it’s a horrible obsession.
Grizelda,
I agree 100%. Guess we’re both cynics. So what!
Grizelda, you are the woman of my dreams…lol. You are 100% right about him being proud and true to himself while juggling two or three women at a time. Funny enough while we were dating I discovered his last re-election speech (it was on youtube) and he thanked the long-suffering girlfriend of 15 years, the woman in the rivals camp as she was chair of a committee he oversaw and another young lady who was a volunteer during his campaign – ALL OF WHOM HE WAS SLEEPING WITH AT THE TIME. Of course then, we hadn’t been together long enough for me to know that he had been dating the volunteer and the chic who worked under his rival, but as we talked I realized that he had in fact dated both women and at the same damn time. He confessed that the volunteer was just a jump off (and claims he told her as much) as she was only 27 at the time and he, then 50, didn’t want to be in a serious relationship with a 20-something, but he was also dating the chic in the rival’s camp who knew about the volunteer. I’m pretty sure at the time she thought she had replaced the 15 year gf and was now the main chic, but he was clearly seeing/sleeping with all three at the time. I thought back to it said wow that was bold. Guess he was proud of himself. He REALLY thinks he’s a pimp.
The frontal cortex amygdala issue is definitely the case. I know my toddler gives me hugs and kisses because that’s what’s been taught and not because he is saying “I think I should give my mommy a kiss and a hug because I love her”, I never thought of adults mimicing normal behavior though. But it’s plausible. We all do it on some level. Who goes to a job interview and says, honestly, I have a hard time getting up on Mondays? We all know how to act when we want something.
Any time I discussed a problem with him or was unhappy I was accused of being negative. Anytime I wasn’t hugging, kissing on him or making light small talk it would give me this blank stare like “this is getting too heavy, I can’t.” Even when I tried talking him about my frustrations with job/career he offered me two sentences and when I wasn’t satisfied and still stressing over it, he just looked at me and shook his head. He just didn’t understand and was offended that I questioned is claims of his feelings for me being “visceral” as he ALWAYS described them because he did act that way. He professed that he would stop telling me and start showing me. I was still waiting for that train to arrive up unitl the very end.
During our last communications, when I let him knew that I didn’t want him in my life in any way, he claimed that he was oh so hurt that I was being dismissive of him and the time we spent together and would hate to lose what we shared forever. Really? You get engaged before we call it quits, don’t have the decency to break it off first, instead you act like an AC so I’m forced to do it for you, parade me around in front of your colleagues like some trophy (now I see that’s what it was), claim my child as your own all the while knowing you are about to marry another woman and yet I’m dismissive and YOU’RE hurt? Who in the hell left the gate open? Talk about delusional.
ACaddict,
You are not the only one who cracks up at that story. I’ve only told a few close friends/family of everything that happened, including the vandalism. When I tell them that she did that “they’re like, huh no.” When I tell them that she did that AND she’s 50…they die!
No-one can believe that a 50 y/o would act that way, not even 20-something year olds. It’s not that serious….EVER. How do you not want to slap your own self after making a complete and utter fool out of yourself? I guess she’s now thinking “hey, it worked, we finally got married after a hundred years.” At the time I didn’t think about it, but I guess her self-esteem was more shot than mine. Which is why I told him that she was pathetic for doing it, he had ego-issues for entertaining her when she did and if getting his ego stroked and having a woman beg him to be with her was what he needed, then I’m happy he found that and they both needed to grow up and stop playing their high school games of break-up-to-make-up.
I use to hedge my bets on how long it would last, but while I’m still healing I don’t have a vested interest in the success/failure of their relationship. I really just never want to hear about him/see him/speak to him ever again. The sooner he is out of my head and heart, the better. What hurt most was that I thought we were friends. I talked to him at length about the pain I experienced with my child’s father as I was abandoned during my pregnancy, and this was my first child, while he went back to the mother of his first child and actually moved to another state (10 hours away) so that it wouldn’t be hard on HER having to deal with me having his baby. He seemed like he cared and was so empathetic, or so I thought.
It still hurts that this pseudo-Obama is married and so soon, as it would if he were with anyone,married or not, but I can’t get over the emotional betrayal. It was just mean and cruel and unnecessary. That, I cannot forgive.
Confused,
Someone once said, “if you keep re-reading the last chapter of your life, you’ll never move on to the next one.” You have simply got to let go of this loser. He’s a cheat. He has had four girlfriends in one year! (And yeah, how do you know that?) You have all the information you need on this hopeless, toxic, messed up dud. Do whatever it takes to build your self-esteem and love yourself, because the problem here right now is YOU. You know he’s bad news. The question is, why do you still care? You’ve got to stop living his life and get your own. It can be wonderful once you do. The choice is yours.
Kerry,
I think that is the most sound and truthful advice I have received in a very long time. Honestly I think I have been able to recognize and take responsibility for my part in the breaking down of the relationship. My EX never really took full responsibility for his cheating, there isn’t much closer there…SO, I think I have taken on a good portion of the responsibility which makes me (at times) question whether or not he is really a horrible man. Yes, he did cheat on me but these are the tricks my mind plays.
I know I am my own worst enemy right now. I just find it so hard to stop “looking and searching” for information about his current situation. It changes nothing, I know this…but sometimes the impulse is too strong.
Right on Allison! Instead of wanting to assume information that hurts us and we really haven’t got a clue, we should use our energy to focus on knowing what will make us strong enough to not even care.
When I think about change and whether it is possible, I think about my father who is now nearly 70 and miserable lonely and I’ll. He started off life with all the natural gifts a person could want. And he has thrown all of it away, treated every one like crap, his (several) wives, (who I guess all thought they would be the exception) his children. He has never bought a birthday card, never paid maintenance, never stayed sober.
Now he is miserable but he still isn’t changed.
You have to believe that change is possible for everyone, life would be too bleak otherwise, but I honestly do not see much evidence of people changing even when it would clearly be to their own enormous benefit.
JR,
Don’t fall in the trap of becoming or continuing to be unavailable yourself. It’s not a nice or fruitfull position to be in.
“When you’re beating yourself up for not changing someone who treated you in a less-than manner and envying the person who has ‘settled down’ with them, you’re guilty of wanting validation, to be chosen, to be given a title without really giving due consideration to where this all really fits into the bigger picture”
How do we stop needing this validation. My ex got his new g/f pregnant – he told me this via text whilst admitting she was a ‘psycho’, it was a ‘loveless’ relationship and he was only got in a defined relationship with her because of the child. He said he was gutted he hadn’t tried harder with me. I was distraught about the pregnancy but it made me feel better that he seemed to be missing me and didn’t love her (terrible I know).The girl has since lost the baby which I wouldn’t wish on anyone but he is still with her and now I feel so stupid for thinking that he valued me in any way. I cannot stop contacting him and I am going mad!
Marie
The only way to stop, is to stop.
Try taking it one day at a time. If it helps, write down what you would be saying to him if you contacted him, put the paper in a drawer to look at tomorrow, then do something else preferably out of the house and with other people. Look at the paper tomorrow. You won’t like it. It will look silly to you.
Also when you think about contacting, imagine what he will say back to you and how you will feel. If he says “I miss you!” you will feel hollow because you know he doesn’t mean it. There’s nothing to keep you apart, except his not wanting to be with you.
It’s that that keeps me from contacting- I know now what I’ll get back – some variety of nothing. Either actually nothing, or some BS nice to hear from you/ how are you/lets set up a booty call shag.
Oh Marie,
Why are you talking to him????
He obviously lied about his relationship with this woman – disgusting he called her a psycho – as he is still with her. He was trying to bring you along as a something, something for himself. He’s disgusting!
I don’t understand what you get from this??
OMG…Just woke up & the first site I looked on was your site. Just am starting to accept that I am the one who continues this cycle. He disappears, he comes back, I feel like it will go different, I start behaving insecure because, well, I want more. He lies to appease me but I know its a lie. I investigate and find out things that hurt me. As you can tell, I AM THE ONE WHO CONTINUES THE MADNESS! How do I let go? I am newly sober (17 months) and have just started to begin putting my life together again. I go to therapy once a week, 12 step meetings at least 2-3 times per week and yet, I still accept this b.s. hoping one day I will begin to feel better about me so I can implement the no contact rule.
miss tea-
good for you for getting sober. so maybe this advice will feel familiar.
you cannot wait until you feel better about you to go NC. you must gather your strength, straighten your spine, tell yourself you can and you WILL do it no matter what, and go NC.
why? because NC is so you can make things quiet and remove drama so you focus on you. which means you have to sit with you – no distractions, just you and you. the drama is just another distraction that keeps you from dealing with yourself, its another form of addiction.
but YOU CAN DO IT.
i won’t lie, its hard at first. and then it gets harder. but then it gets easier and you will learn to take proper care of yourself. you must embrace yourself, “faults” and all until you see how precious you are and how you must attend to your own wants and needs.
you won’t feel better unless you do this. and staying with him will only drain you. there is no up with him, only a roller coaster going down. so give yourself a little time to prepare. and then. just. do. it.
Ejane.Don’t know if you will see this but you are so right when you say that just because he is in a stressful situation doesn’t mean he should get a free pass to be neglectful and disrespectful. Remember some of the classic signs of EUM are, ambiguous, opportunistic, immature,refusing to handle his problems,
irresponsible, leading you on for his own selfish purposes. But, I think you know how to handle this creep. Flush. He’s not the only person who has problems and if he can’t deal with them while treating you well, and with consideration he doesn’t deserve your patience and devotion.
LOL Natalie: “You don’t have copyright over their assholery.” So…..that means I gotta get permission from him if I’m going to ‘use’ any of his ‘original’ assholery in my ‘work’? 😉
Better late than never, I’m back from my trip and really want to weigh in on this issue. ‘Cause it’s a doosey of an issue. I was on a road trip this past week with a friend of mine. We were driving through beautiful mountains and national parks, etc. With all of that scenic driving, there is also LOTS of time to think. Too much time sometimes. At one point, I actually found myself staring out at the cows placidly grazing on the hillsides, and thinking, “What the F*CK is WRONG with me that I’m thinking of him right now?!!” This after 6 months of NC.
Nat, you said: “Why, even in the face of being treated in a certain way by somebody and even knowing that they have fundamental issues that are a barrier to a relationship, are you still there trying to go back and obsessing about them, when you could be addressing why you were with them in the first place and mending that?”
Why? I wonder sometimes. I think, for me, it’s the fear that this is all I have to look forward to in my love life, this settling for crumbs. I don’t want to go back to him, but hey….I consider myself a realist and also a person who starkly looks at things in a “cause-equals-effect” rationale….So I think, “Ok, if the only guys showing interest in me are/have been ACs, then I guess that’s all I can hope to ever attract.” Or: “I guess there’s something about me that makes healthy men run for the hills.” And these thoughts terrify and distract me until I’m on a one-way trip to Asshole Town. Because, I guess, I don’t see any “GoodGuyvilles” on the way there.
And my little cousin just got engaged this last week. So yeah, I feel like I’ll be alone forever, clutching my ringless hands in a frozen death grip. Cheery, huh? Sorry guys. Maybe I’m still tired from being on the road for so long. Both the literal and figurative road.
Welcome back Revolution. And hugs to you. Keep up the good work and you will get there. I’m in awe of you and the others on this site who have kept NC.
Thanks, JR. Your warmth and encouragement to keep going just made my day. 🙂
Tired. I’m just worried about you. That’s all. You seem so sweet and gentle. I agree with the poster who said, you need to get ANGRY. 6 years is a long time and it takes a very long time to get over the mess he put you through. Just stay on your horse and don’t fall off. Focus on your kids. They need your attention far more than MR. MM/AC/EUM. Congrats on your english course and whatever else you are doing for yourself.
Thanks tinks , but thankyou for being tough with me too. im first to admit now im a child somtimes in my thinking .It took me a long time to see .I also played my part in the deception so what did i expect , he was showing me by his actions for years.This new ow and all of it has done me a favour its set me free . i did the right thing for once i binned someone .Grew a tiny spine and binned him and do you no what since i did the right thing , good things have happened since binning him 4 or 5 weeks ago , i started course , guitar,councelling and i won nearly 100 quid , all nice positive things. plus i felt a tiny bit sad but then i danced to tiger feet round my kitchen whilst laughing so im on my way x
and yes thats my prob to sweet and gentle for arseholes . not anymore !
I needed to hear this today! I have been ‘stuck’ on my nasty ex for a while now and I am so guilty of romanticising him and his new girl…when really and truly it’s all bollocks!!! He managed to cleverly confirm my insecurities when we were together (what all abusers slyly do, chip away at your self worth)…and now I’m ‘stuck’?! Ugh! I feel a boxing session (with his face on the target! 😉 is in order! xx
These comments are heart wrenching for me personally, but I appreciate all of them. Natalie, your insights are a gift. You make them appear much simpler than they really are when we must apply them to our own lives. I wish I could write with as much clarity. Thanks for passing on the gift to the rest of us.
I wrote a post about how long it takes to heal.
God Bless, All
I’m a pretty cool 46 had amazing parents who didn’t see gender wanted their children to live their dream…lower middle class but ethnics,,,and knew the value of education…art..music…politics..been struggling so long…with American society…I think it destroys girls…no matter how you were brought up…your never good enough..never booby enough never..blond enough…never skinny enough..and always how to improve yourself…it really has taken me 46 years to say f that….I would rather…photograph ..play my violin.. read ….watch a great movie…be with my self..men don’t define us…society doesn’t define us…we need to stop settling cause if you want to be defined by a man then your not a woman….
and … thanks Natalie…a graduate of your school of unbelievable relationship of hard knocks…when I found you I was a mess..you slowly…patiently..lovingly…sympathetically… lots of empathy….made me realize that yes i was to blame..change my mind set…love me and live and learn…Thanks Natalie… I will always revisit cause I learn and always be grateful …cheers
I met my now ex boyfriend just over 3yrs ago, his wife had divorced him a year earlier, after our meeting he accused his exwife of all sorts of drama…
He quickly pursued me, didnt want to spend a day without seeing me…
He would do everything for me, I couldnt believe how his wife could have left such a good man, I started to truly think that the problem was surely with his ex wife, well 6 months down the line I started to see the real person i was dealing with, he started blaming me for every little thing that happened in the relationship, at that time we were living together, I found out he was secretive about everything, I discovered that he was a mummys boy, everytime we had an argument he would run to his mum or sister, would not see him for weeks or until I call him to see if hes ok, only then he would come back home…for 3yrs the relationship was a rollercoaster, I got into a state of permanent stress leading to depression, he was accusing me that i was difficult to live with that was why all my other relationship had failed in the past, he accused me of trying to control him and so on…..
At the beginning he was calling me angel, how quickly he said he was in love with me, within a week he took me to meet his family who treated me like a princess….
yes sometimes we do think that the problems are with us when people treat us bad, anyways 3 yrs down the line, I met his exwife in town, shes now married to someone else, we had a little chat, everything she told me about my BF was so true, I could see a repeat of their relationshp, same pattern….she told me she got married to him early into the relationship, My ex also ask me to marry him 4 months into the relationship, I thought it was too soon so I said lets wait a bit more, 2 months later I started to see his true personality, but still I stuck around for 3 years trying to change a 44yrs old man. We broke up 5months ago and im now moving on with my life, my ex is already dating someone new, we live in a small village on a small island and we attend the same church, people werre so use to seeing us together all the time and he use to tell the locals how special I was and so on..now hes with someone new and the news spread fast….